[02:03] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[15:13] <Eickmeyer> >	leftyfb: I have a few things for you that I've noticed as of late. 1) don't be so quick to redirect/police the channel. 2) Don't butt-in on other people providing support. 3) Try to be friendlier, you're doing a real poor job at that, (and caused a Ubuntu Member to rescind their membership which means, needless to say, you've got a microscope on you).
[15:13] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/drFXHghvZZ/
[15:13] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: Wasn't just my opinion.
[15:14] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/F8pJBXWFhx/
[15:15] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: then the opinions are wrong. He reached out to me telling me he'd like to get to know me. I very politely told them my time is limited to providing supprot on IRC. Then they threatened going to the "council" and basically telling me I'll be forced to be friends with them
[15:16] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: That's not how I read it.
[15:17] <leftyfb> hm, my hexchat didn't log my inputs on my mobile client
[15:18] <leftyfb> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/wqzQ1d6y/IMG_0997.PNG
[15:18] <leftyfb> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/t9k81wF6/IMG_0998.PNG
[15:19] <leftyfb> I was nothing but polite
[15:20] <Eickmeyer> What I see is that he simply wanted to work better together and you brushed him off. Culturally, that might mean "getting to know you" which might translate differently.
[15:21] <Eickmeyer> You tend to act like a "lone wolf" in #ubuntu, which is not how Ubuntu (in general) works at all.
[15:22] <Eickmeyer> And need I remind you of the Code of Conduct.
[15:23] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: I've had exactly 1 interaction before this with this person back in March. I provided a link about the "barrier" project. Other than the conversations you've seen I've had zero interaction with them. To tell me the CoC forces me to befriend him out of the blue is just plain false. I was very polite and clear.
[15:26] <Eickmeyer> I didn't say befriend them, I said work with them. I'm saying your pushback, sometimes rudeness, and ignoring the other things I've mentioned, is what is under the microscope here more than anything. I recommend taking a step back and perhaps taking some time off from providing support in #ubuntu, perhaps a week. You tend to act like the channel police more than you actually help, and
[15:26] <Eickmeyer> that's not just my opinion.
[15:28]  * Eickmeyer afk
[15:45] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: I would like to get on a call at some point with everyone who has a "microscope" on and opinions of me to discuss. 
[15:58] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: Back. I doubt a call will happen, but I'll tell you this: they're all part of the ops team.
[15:59] <leftyfb> and I would verymuch like to have an audience with my accusers and faceless overlords
[16:00] <leftyfb> you are the only one who ever complains about me to me
[16:00] <ogra> oh man, you managed to piss off jo erlend ? he's the one lighthouse person defending us on reddid and in various forums (since more than a decade FWIW)
[16:01] <leftyfb> I did nothing
[16:01] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: You did something.
[16:01] <leftyfb> ogra: please read the images above
[16:01] <leftyfb> everything I did is in the logs I posted
[16:01] <leftyfb> which is very politely refuse personal advances 
[16:05] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: You seriously think those were personal advances? Yeah, no.
[16:05] <leftyfb> "2023 Apr 24 17:12:34 <jo-erlend>	leftyfb; I would really like to get to know you."
[16:05] <leftyfb> yes
[16:06] <leftyfb> I'm not saying an intimate relationship, but a relationship non-the-less
[16:06] <Eickmeyer> I see that as "what makes you tick, how do you provide support so well". Professionally.
[16:06] <Eickmeyer> You have to see it from the other culture's POV.
[16:09] <leftyfb> I'm fine in having discussions about ubuntu and supposed as I do in this channel and the main. I do not have time to give more effort into building other side-relationships. I was about to tell them to join here to have side-discussions about ubuntu outside of support, and then they got all weird about it being a "fight" and then being offensive about being "American". I was nothing but polite the entire time. They were not.
[16:10] <leftyfb> supposed/support
[16:10] <leftyfb> sorry, on a conference call
[16:15] <leftyfb> to me, this looked like someone wanting to build a relationship with me out of the blue. It's a bit abrupt and offputting. I was as polite as I could have possibly be, trying to deny those advances, even after they threatened to go to the "council" to force a relationship.
[16:17] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: and maybe the other person should see my POV of not being receptive to advances in the way they were proposing and even threatening 
[16:18] <leftyfb> I will say, the very beginning of the entire conversation, at the first mention of the council, I messaged a council member directly and questioned the situation(with logs). They agreed with me.
[16:22] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: The rest of your attitude is what's under the microscope here, not just this incident.
[16:24] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: yeah, you've been saying that for years and yet I get praise all the time both in the channel and in private from others, some other ops. Which is why I'm asking for an audience from these other people who never seem to reach out to me directly but apparently prefer to let you speak on their behalf. 
[16:26] <lotuspsychje> i think leftyfb support methods are pretty fair and supportive, dont think ive seen rudeness before unless it was needed for the ammount of trolls #ubuntu gets
[16:27] <leftyfb> lotuspsychje: thank you
[17:43] <arraybolt3[m]> FWIW, "I would really like to get to know you" sounds like a personal advance to me. I would have immediately pulled the CoC out of my pocket and probably used !ops had it gone much further.
[17:46] <arraybolt3[m]> Looking at the logs leftyfb shared, I would have found the entire exchange highly offensive were I on leftyfb's side. It may have needed to be taken to the council, but only because "jo-erland" (whoever that is) stepped *far* outside of bounds IMO.
[17:46] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3[m]: I'm just not so quick to judge because I'm wondering if there's another phrase in Norwegian that was meant.
[17:47] <Eickmeyer> It's *extremely easy* to lose things in translation, especially to American English, since we tend to Americentrize things a lot.
[17:47] <arraybolt3> Eickmeyer: Do you find anything disrespectful in simply saying "My time these days on IRC is mainly helping support users in #ubuntu" and then not responding to a further message?
[17:47] <arraybolt3> Because not long after, you see a PM go through saying "I feel a bit disrespected,".
[17:48] <arraybolt3> Perhaps it was simply a language barrier. But I've seen Norwegian people interact with American people when there was a much worse language barrier and that kind of thing didn't happen.
[17:48] <Eickmeyer> I think it was simply a language barrier and a simple "not at this time" would've sufficed.
[17:50] <Eickmeyer> Now, was there an overreaction? Yes. Could the situation have been diffused? Yes. But, there's other items at play here.
[17:50] <arraybolt3> Think of it this way. Maybe leftyfb misunderstood. Sure, fine. But jo must have misunderstood horribly wrong over and over if that's the case. I see nothing disrespectful, hurtful, or CoC-violating in leftyfb's speech. I see a language barrier as the only way of excusing jo's "misconduct".
[17:51] <Eickmeyer> I don't think this was the only incident either.
[17:53] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: with jo, yes, as stated before, it was the only interaction with them other than back in March sharing a link to the barrier project's github page
[17:54] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: ok
[17:55] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: I'm not excusing their misconduct. Either way, no discipline will become of it because they rescinded their membership *and* launchpad account.
[17:55] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: seriously? After I've mentioned multiple times here and given logs for every single interaction with them and stating as such, you were still thinking there was more to it and that I was holding back?
[17:55] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: If that's what you take away from a simple 'ok', getting defensive, then take a walk.
[17:56] <leftyfb> "I don't think this was the only incident either"
[17:56] <leftyfb> I replied stating it was, you respond with ok
[17:56] <leftyfb> that tells me you didn't believe me 
[17:58] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: Not true.
[18:03] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: I'm sorry, for whatever I did to you at some point, but I feel you have a very clear bias against me for some reason. You have for a long time now and I don't know why. You're the only one that ever comes at me like this, threatening me with removal from the community if I don't change. Mentioning others share your opinion and yet I never hear from any of them, quite the opposite from members of the community and other ops. I 
[18:03] <leftyfb> spend a lot of time and effort providing decent support almost every day and have been for over a decade. If some faceless body of people has an issue with me, I would like an audience with them to discuss, not over IRC or email. 
[18:04] <leftyfb> I wouldn't mind, but you tend to give me more flack than the very obvious trolls who love to frequent the support channel. 
[18:07] <leftyfb> as much as I am put off by and don't have the time to fulfill jo's advances for friendship/mentorship, the fact of the matter is, they reached out and were looking for that from me. And very little to no interaction with them. That should tell you something
[18:08] <leftyfb> if I was such a bad guy, they wouldn't have reached out in the way they did
[18:08] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: But that's just it! You are quick to judge people as trolls! You need to remember the *human* factor. You are easily dismissive and are quick to call !ops. You've become jaded, and that's contrary to the very word "Ubuntu". So, that's why I'm worried. Worried about you. This isn't about "rules", this is about community and humanity.
[18:10] <leftyfb> no, I am not quick to judge trolls. And you can't prove otherwise. I am in fact very good at reporting people in the support channel who ever VERY CLEARLY only there to disrupt. 
[18:11] <Eickmeyer> You're the most frequent reporter. We see that and see you as "the boy who cried wolf."
[18:11] <leftyfb> frequency does not equate to abuse
[18:12] <leftyfb> and yeah, I'm well aware that my reports are ignored
[18:12] <Eickmeyer> It is an indicator of quickness to judge and inability do deescalate the situation on your own.
[18:12] <leftyfb> to the detriment of the support channel
[18:12] <leftyfb> you cannot deescalate someone who's only purpose in the chat is to disrupt. You're not going to CoC them into a good person
[18:13] <leftyfb> that's not how it works
[18:14] <arraybolt3> From the CoC, "A community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one.
[18:14] <Eickmeyer> I've done it plenty of times, but not by threatening the CoC or by threatening them with kicking them.
[18:14] <arraybolt3> I don't see anything threatening about leftyfb's responce.
[18:14] <arraybolt3> Or their conduct in the support channel.
[18:14] <arraybolt3> I do feel like the whole exchange going on in here is uncomfortable and threatening, though.
[18:15] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: I'm not threatening leftyfb with anything.
[18:16] <Eickmeyer> But, I'll drop this discussion, because obviously, despite coming at this from a calm, *human* perspective, it's being perceived otherwise.
[18:16] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: you are constantly threatening me
[18:16] <leftyfb> as you have done today
[18:19] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: I haven't threatened anything. I am just worried, that's all. But, if you keep up this defensiveness, then it's an indicator that there is something to be defensive about. Otherwise, I'm willing to let this go and let someone else on the IRC Ops Team handle it, because obviously, you're not willing to take my criticism.