[00:30] <teward> duuude: no?  We follow the standard Ubuntu freeze schedules.  https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/mantic-minotaur-release-schedule/34989
[00:31] <teward> duuude: why do you ask?
[14:51] <duuude> teward: could we have nbsdgames instead of 2048-qt?
[14:51] <duuude> it is far lighter and has 18 games. better in every way
[14:51] <duuude>  <teward> duuude: to reiterate my original statement: bug us next cycle. which means **after** we release a new version and development opens
[15:11] <teward> duuude: thats a question you need to email to the devel mailing list or make a feature request to add it to the seed.  asking in IRC is a sure fire way for us to forget or miss it
[15:24] <wxl[m]1> I’d probably shoot it down given they’re terminal based instead of graphical. I have no personal problem with that but last time I checked Lubuntu was mostly GUI.
[16:00] <duuude> wxl[m]1: aside from you and everybody else who have played it not having a problem, it also has an icon menu so i don't see any practical differences that aren't an advantage
[16:00] <duuude> people have seen it as looking cool and special, ranging from linux nerds to little kids
[16:00] <wxl[m]1> I wouldn’t make it a default based on that
[16:01] <wxl[m]1> You can easily install it yourself if that’s what you want
[16:06] <duuude> also you have manpages and top! they are just not as cool and don't have an icon ;)
[16:07] <wxl[m]1> You’re trying to sell it as the default. It’s going to be an uphill battle against anything that isn’t primarily graphical.
 ^^ that
 unless the games are primarily graphical I don't think it'll be included as a default part of the Lubuntu seed / images / default set.
 because terminal / TUI is not what most GUI users want.
[17:31] <duuude> so the concern is users not liking it?
[17:37] <duuude> also it depends on the definition of graphical, yeah the software doesn't depend on Xorg or Qt but they are visual (none of them are about reading or writing)
[17:38] <duuude> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/abakh/junk/master/screenshot.png
[17:39] <duuude> and if they are "text-based" so is 2048. the main difference is 2048 having rounded rectangles.
[17:44] <duuude> we are like "I am a programmer, it doesn't make a difference for me, but what about non-programmers?" whereas the whole difference the "GUI" makes is in the underlying dependencies that only programmers think about. 
[17:45] <duuude> bonus point: the terminal still uses Qt :P
[17:46] <duuude> it is just a more colorful Qt window replacing another
[17:47] <wxl[m]1> Your average GUI user sees a distinctive difference.
[17:49] <wxl[m]1> Having been with Lubuntu for a long time, I remember when we actually had some TUI based apps and they were a constant source of pain for some people. Even some of the good ones (alsamixer). Sorry, bub, it’s a no for me.
[17:49] <duuude> wxl[m]1: what kind of pain?
[17:49] <wxl[m]1> They didn’t like it.
[17:49] <wxl[m]1> Nothing practical, really
[17:50] <wxl[m]1> But again, we make software for the average user, not for ourselves
[17:50] <duuude> i have not seen 1 person not liking the games and I don't exaggerate
[17:50] <wxl[m]1> I mean I’d make awesome the default window manager and primarily use tmux
[17:50] <duuude> yeah but those have practical differences
[17:51] <wxl[m]1> The games are great. The interface isn’t consistent with the entirety of the OS
[17:51] <duuude> 2048 isn't themed either
[17:51] <duuude> and games are generally like that
[17:51] <wxl[m]1> I didn’t say themed
[17:51] <wxl[m]1> Why is this so important to you?
[17:52] <duuude> nobody complained about pinball not looking like Windows XP
[17:52] <duuude> and solitaire etc.
[17:52] <duuude> it is just our own programmer mindsets projected to others
[17:53] <wxl[m]1> Huh?
[17:53] <duuude> I mean they are visually even more colorful
[17:53] <duuude> they are playable and don't need any additional skill with whatever
[17:53] <duuude> and they are more
[17:54] <duuude> 18 games
[17:54] <duuude> one could never get bored.
[17:54] <wxl[m]1> But why is this so important to YOU to change as the default in Lubuntu?
[17:54] <duuude> well it is better, and you include games.
 To get a true sense of user adoption it might be a good question for our Discourse forum.
[17:55] <wxl[m]1> You’re really not answering my question
[17:55] <wxl[m]1> You might come in here and say Konsole is better than LXQt-terminal
[17:55] <wxl[m]1> But we wouldn’t change it
[17:56] <wxl[m]1> Among other reasons: because anyone can install it if they want to
[17:56] <wxl[m]1> The same applies here
[17:56] <duuude> I made the games, you include games, and those are better
[17:56] <duuude> kc2bez made a good suggestion
[17:57] <wxl[m]1> So you are involved in bsdgames then?
[17:57] <duuude> nbsdgames. 
[17:58] <duuude> wxl[m]1: well one could install LFS and install everything when needed, the point of having distros is having what is needed when needed and not looking for software the moment you need bluetooth or webcam or whatever
[18:00] <wxl[m]1> And there we have the answer at long last
[18:00] <wxl[m]1> So then why not just make a distribution that includes EVERYTHING?
[18:01] <duuude> there is pareto efficiency, getting best of the trade-offs, EVERYTHING also includes stuff that hardly anyone uses
[18:03] <duuude> and the games weighting less than a wallpaper and having endless gameplay for like 300 kilobytes do make the mark
[18:03] <wxl[m]1> You should admit to having a biased opinion
[18:04] <duuude> i may, but i can't see any reason to contrary, let me expand
[18:04] <duuude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_impression
[18:04] <duuude> first impression forms the majority of a person's perception of whatever they interact with
[18:05] <duuude> and it often persists
[18:05] <wxl[m]1> To be clear, again, I personally wouldn’t be against the idea, but I’d probably sooner be into nethack. The issue here is not about what I like or even what’s necessarily better, but what best aligns with the goals of the distribution. And GUI is one of those goals. Meaning not running out of the terminal
[18:06] <duuude> the very first few moments someone uses an OS, they don't yet have a thing to do, and one of the first thing they look into is games
[18:06] <duuude> wxl[m]1: have you ascended?
 Heh, I would be more inclined to think they would open a web browser.
[18:07] <wxl[m]1> And given the current state of games, nothing we’re discussing cuts the mustard
[18:07] <duuude> if you ask people about windows XP, or nokia phones, one of the common things they mention are the games.
[18:09] <duuude> and they are *useful* if being useful is providing what the user may want
[18:09] <wxl[m]1> I mean the buzz in games is more about Breath of the Wild
[18:10] <duuude> imagine not having an internet connection and being bored. Google did address that with the dinosaur game they put in the chrome.
[18:10] <wxl[m]1> We’re not trying to provide the best game or anything close to it. Just a little taste/bonus.
[18:10] <lynorian[m]> no one has a perfect taste that suits everyone in games
[18:10] <wxl[m]1> And that is absolutely the truth
[18:11] <duuude> yeah, but 18 games are more likely to suit more people than 1
[18:11] <lynorian[m]> my girlfriend and I both like games but play almost entirely different stuff
[18:11] <duuude> and they are collectively 8 times lighter
[18:11] <duuude> one could easily play fifteen if they liked 2048
[18:11] <wxl[m]1> Having no GUI at all is lighter, too. Just doesn’t align with Lubuntu’s goals
[18:12] <wxl[m]1> Build a GUI and come on back
 Bonus points for C++ and Qt.
[18:12] <duuude> wxl[m]1: why all the talk about "at all" and "everything" it is comparing 2048 with nbsdgames
[18:13] <wxl[m]1> I’d probably support tk/tkl if i had to
[18:13] <duuude> wxl[m]1: i was thinking of making a GUI to port it to android
[18:14] <wxl[m]1> There’s no comparing. I’m simply saying there’s a GUI in one but not the other and that’s a criteria that has to be met
[18:14] <duuude> GUI is useful elsewhere, it is just here that it is only a software architecture difference
[18:14] <wxl[m]1> I wonder if you could make a GUI out of kdialog XD
 XD
[18:15] <duuude> imagine they are rendered on another character grid that isn't a terminal.
[18:16] <wxl[m]1> Exactly. Now just turn that dream into reality and bob’s your uncle
[18:16] <duuude> would that make any difference for the user?
[18:16] <wxl[m]1> Yes
[18:16] <duuude> which?
[18:17] <wxl[m]1> The same difference it makes for people who play nethack
 Reality over perception usually.
[18:17] <duuude> wxl[m]1: i have not seen anyone preferring xnethack
[18:18] <wxl[m]1> Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen
[18:19] <duuude> yeah, not seeing any dragons doesn't mean dragons don't exist but there is no reason to think to the contrary.
[18:20] <duuude> if dragons didn't exist, the first sign was no dragons being seen
[18:20] <wxl[m]1> ooooook then
[18:20] <wxl[m]1> Post it to the forum. Be aware, even then, it’s not binding.
[18:21] <duuude> is forum the mailing list?
[18:21] <wxl[m]1> Nope
[18:21] <duuude> the ubuntu forum?
 https://discourse.lubuntu.me
[18:21] <duuude> aha
[18:21] <wxl[m]1> How long have you been a Lubuntu user BTW?
[18:23] <duuude> I used 14.04, moved to debian since
[18:23] <duuude> hmm... where is the login?
[18:25] <wxl[m]1> Top right by login
[18:26] <duuude> oh it needs js
[18:40] <wxl[m]1> Figured it out yet?
[18:44] <wxl[m]1> duuude: Also you never answered my question. I’d be kind of thrilled to know that one of nbsdgames’ devs uses Lubuntu as their daily driver. 
[18:51] <duuude> https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/nbsdgames-replacing-2048-qt/4303
 I used 14.04, moved to debian since
[18:51] <wxl[m]1> Aw shoot
[18:53] <duuude> is ubuntu going to be completely made of snap?
[18:58] <wxl[m]1> Hopefully not
[18:58] <lynorian[m]> having a snap for say ncdu would be very silly
[18:58] <wxl[m]1> Made it into a poll
[19:14] <kc2bez[m]> There is some discussion about making an immutable base and layering snaps on top. It won't be completely snapped persay. Honestly, I like some of the cli snaps better than gui snaps. A few I use on a regular basis, in no particular order, are: lxd/lxc, fast and lsd. That is a discussion for another time I guess.
[19:19] <wxl[m]1> I wouldn’t mind hearing about your experiences with the lxd snap
[19:26] <kc2bez[m]> My needs are pretty basic. I am just running some light server things. I only have had one hiccup on a bionic host where I needed to use the HWE kernel to match up with ZFS in use for lxd.
[19:27] <wxl> my lxd use in the past has been container based
[19:28] <kc2bez[m]> I like the flexibility it brings with attaching storage and network devices. I haven't done much with lxd VMs but I did mess with it briefly.
[19:29] <wxl> ummm did i just say container based? yikes. i'm multitasking too much. i meant for development use
[19:31] <kc2bez[m]> Oh, yeah I have used it to build packages too. It is nice having access to the host for some stuff without polluting your system with build stuff.
[19:31] <wxl> so did you find any difficulties with set up or such that were resolved in giong snap?
[19:32] <kc2bez[m]> It seems relatively straightforward using the snap. Snap install then lxd init and then you are off to the races.
[19:33] <kc2bez[m]> I never really tried too many times with the traditional install.
[19:34] <wxl> well that makes for a hard comparison :)
[19:34] <kc2bez[m]> Yeah, that is true.