[16:36] <duuude> wxl: do you see that nobody (including you) has a problem with them being TUI?
[16:36] <wxl> duuude: so far, yep. i mean, statistically speaking you've not really got a representative sample
[16:37] <duuude> it is mainly the weirdness of someone coming into IRC and proposing to change an overlooked part of the default holding you back
[16:37] <duuude> wxl: it is the same deal about dragons again
[16:37] <duuude> we could sample a million people and you could say 6.9 billion other people may have another opinion
[16:38] <duuude> 100 million*
[16:44] <wxl> and vice versa
[17:14] <duuude> yeah
[17:14] <duuude> in other words: we are worried about people whom we don't see, being prejudiced against something invisible, for which they would not have a reason
[17:15] <wxl> nope, i'm worried about actual users
[17:15] <duuude> in other words: we are worried about actual users whom we don't see, being prejudiced against something invisible, for which they would not have a reason
[17:16] <duuude> also the people trying linux are on the more explorative, novelty-seeking side, even if they are not technical
[17:17] <duuude> it is more likely to have positive impact
 presumed impact from a biased point of view is unsupported hearsay.  I have not seen a demand for "more games" in Lubuntu defaults.  Nor have I seen any reasonable reason to replace 2048 with terminal-text-interface games as end users expect pretty graphics not TUI when choosing a GUI distro like Lubuntu.
 no, the evidence does not support this (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <duuude> also the people trying linux are on the more explorative, novelty-seeking side, even if they are not technical)
[20:52] <duuude> teward001: nobody demanded pc, video games, newspapers, gramophone, wheels, before they were invented, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't want it. things don't work that way.
[20:53] <duuude> teward: evidence does support it, linux on desktop has like under 2 percent marketshare and almost nobody *has* to use it. that itself puts in you in the few top percents if we are talking about being explorative.
[20:55] <duuude> s/in//
[21:02] <duuude> logic and "evidence" don't work like this. rational evidence is about having the best inference we could from "available" data. not about "what if". that is called denialism. we could have been talking about soviet spies on moon and you could have said all the same things :D
[21:03] <duuude> e.g. evidence doesn't support no spies being in the moon. what if they have hid beneath the surface? etc.
[21:14] <duuude> also as far as I have witnessed the reception of games, gameplay (think minecraft, nintendo, etc.) has been far more important than graphics.
[21:15] <duuude> let alone when the whole deal is a different color set, variable font size, and rounded rectangles
[21:18] <duuude> did my latest messages about gameplay and rounded rectangles reach there? my connection is acting weird
[21:43] <teward> kc2bez: you alive?
 I am
 good you saw my other msgs
 duuude: the Lubuntu Council which oversees the project as a whole will vote on this but do not expect a rapid answer.  we are all busy.
 note that once the Council votes, that decision will stand.  And you at that time will have to abide by that decision without argument.
[21:56] <duuude> teward001: someone named david mentioned testing in the forums. what are the testing requirements?
[22:00] <duuude> do xubuntu guys test all the 50 puzzles they include? their channel is not quite active.
[22:01] <duuude> anyway I would automate that once I know what is expected. probably could be done with a cat and a pipe.
[22:29] <kc2bez[m]> I guess, as long as your pipe smoking cat can operate a computer input device.
[22:30] <duuude> it does :D
[22:31] <kc2bez[m]> Nice.
[22:31]  * duuude piped rubbish into a game and it did respond
[22:31] <duuude> wxl: if you want a more representative sample nbsdgames has 3 times more github stars. collective opinion of 200 people.  
[22:32] <wxl> duuude: yes, and if you go looking at the wrong subreddit, all sorts of horrible things are upvoted. echo chambers mean nothing
[22:32] <duuude> although it is an unfair comparison on the TUI vs GUI question. because nbsdgames fans do know of GUI games but 2048 fans may have not known of TUI games
[22:34] <duuude> wxl: what kind of user opinion would satisfy you then? also the github is more likely to represent the linux community than a not quite active forum.
[22:34] <wxl> duuude: everyone who came to your site is not a representative sample of all the potential users
[22:35] <wxl> that's not how statistics works
[22:35] <duuude> wxl: everyone who came to mine vs theirs is.
[22:35] <duuude> they are on github too
[22:35] <duuude> it is a cool game but nbsdgames is better on every front
[22:35] <duuude> admit it
[22:36] <duuude> it even greets the user with a fancy colorful ascii art
[22:36] <duuude> wxl: have you tried miketron?
[22:37] <duuude> also nbsdgames got the stars in far less time. they have been around for more.
[22:38] <wxl> breath of the wild has at least 20k reviews https://www.metacritic.com/game/switch/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild
[22:38] <duuude> such a comparison is in their favor in 2 ways and we are still ahead in every single metric.
[22:38] <wxl> nbsdgames isn't even listed (of course neither is 2048-qt)
[22:39] <duuude> wxl: such a comparison is fair between two open-source project without marketing appealing to a similar audience
[22:39] <wxl> 59 stars for 2048-qt 
[22:39] <wxl> a fraction, but a notable one given the longevity of each project
[22:39] <duuude> more time=more stars
[22:40] <wxl> exactly
[22:40] <duuude> it is in their favor and they lose
[22:40] <wxl> so let's try stars/years of existence
[22:40] <duuude> you probably mistake nbsdgames for bsdgames
[22:40] <duuude> i think nbsdgames is around since like 2019 or something
[22:41] <duuude> i don't remember when i published it
[22:42] <wxl> maybe days would be better
[22:42] <wxl> by first commit for fun
[22:43] <wxl> oh shoot it's been around a while
[22:43] <wxl> (2048-qt)
[22:43] <wxl> holy pull request issues
[22:44] <duuude> yeah nbsdgames is around since 2019
[22:44] <duuude> our first commit is years after their last version
[22:44]  * wxl shrugs
[22:44] <duuude> it is 144 times better
[22:45] <duuude> have you tried miketron?
[22:45] <wxl> still, the insurmountable issue i see is that lubuntu is (with the exception of lxqt-terminal) one that comes with a whole set of gui applications
[22:45] <wxl> and nbsdgames isn't one of them
[22:45] <wxl> so still a no for me
[22:45] <wxl> nope
[22:45] <duuude> you have tui as well. they are just not in the menu.
[22:46] <wxl> right, and that's where all the tuis should live
[22:46] <duuude> I could compile them for Xorg this very minute. Would that change anything?
[22:46] <wxl> in the end, no amount of convincing from you is going to change my mind on that particular front
[22:46] <duuude> it is. you like nbsdgames.
[22:46] <duuude> people like it.
[22:47] <wxl> doesn't matter to me
[22:47] <duuude> it is one third the size and three times the stars
[22:47] <wxl> people like compiz. ain't going to be in lubuntu.
[22:47] <duuude> yeah, but that is not compiz
[22:48] <wxl> if you had a nice qt interface like lo and behold 2048-qt has, then sure, we could talk
[22:48] <duuude> you actually debloat by including nbsdgames
[22:48] <wxl> at least assuming it's in the ubuntu archives
[22:48] <wxl> we could debloat by removing all gui elements. A LOT
[22:48] <wxl> also not happening
[22:48] <duuude> yeah, but they would have a practical difference
[22:50] <duuude> imagine you have nbsdgames in lubuntu. what would happen the next day?
[22:50] <wxl> someone inevitably will complain about it
[22:50] <wxl> i mean we barely get by with xscreensaver
[22:50] <wxl> and that *IS* a GUI app
[22:50] <duuude> nobody complained to me
[22:50] <wxl> you don't run lubuntu, do you?
[22:51] <duuude> I have run.
[22:51] <duuude> I mean
[22:51] <duuude> nobody complained to me about nbsdgames being TUi
[22:51] <wxl> yep you have run
[22:51] <wxl> in circles
[22:51] <kc2bez[m]> duuude: `sudo apt remove nbsdgames` 🤷
[22:52] <wxl> and you keep running those same circles
[22:52] <wxl> just wait for the council to make their decision
[22:52] <duuude> have you tried miketron?
[22:52] <wxl> i already answered you
[22:53] <duuude> you will like it. compliments will be more likely to result.
[22:53] <wxl> !info miketron
[22:53] <duuude> every single piece of possible evidence points to that
[22:53] <wxl> uhhh huh
[22:54] <duuude> wxl: the miketron in the nbsdgames
[22:54] <duuude> nbmiketron
[22:55] <wxl> you should put screenshots everywhere
[22:57] <wxl> like create a wiki on github that includes screenshots of every game
[22:58] <duuude> yeah but the games would be lighter to download than the pictures :P 
[22:58] <wxl> and?
[22:58] <duuude> they would be interactive and animated!
[23:00] <duuude> https://imgur.com/aiXoabJ.png
[23:03] <duuude> https://imgur.com/Ux5iEZE.png
[23:11] <wxl> complicated snake. not terrible.
[23:12] <duuude> wxl: imagine nobody would complain. would there be any other difference that isn't an advantage?
[23:13] <wxl> it didn't run out of the menu
[23:13] <wxl> silent failure
[23:13] <wxl> other than that, no :)
[23:13] <duuude> ok so the only problem is the potential of people complaining. 
[23:14] <wxl> and really it not visually aligning with the rest of the OS
[23:14] <duuude> games don't. it is normal
[23:14] <wxl> man you love your circles
[23:14] <duuude> XP pinball and solitaire didn't either
[23:14] <wxl> you should make yourself a circle game
[23:14] <wxl> you'd easily get the high score
[23:15] <duuude> wxl: try nbdarrt :P
[23:16] <duuude> the only problem is complains from people who only exist in theory
[23:16] <wxl> not true
[23:17] <wxl> the other problem is where it does not visually align with the rest of the OS and, as such, is not keeping with the goals of the project
[23:17] <wxl> that is no theory
[23:17] <duuude> didn't every single way of finding out end in favor of nbsdgames?
[23:17] <wxl> that was never in question
[23:18] <wxl> it just… is
[23:18] <wxl> and tbh was the first thing i told you
[23:19] <duuude> what about including for just one version to see what happens?
[23:20] <duuude> not a big deal :'( could be replaced any time!
[23:22] <wxl> as i told you a long time ago, it's a no for me
[23:22] <wxl> but the lubuntu council is the ultimate authority and they will make the final, binding decision
[23:22] <lynorian[m]> honestly I tried some of the games and with my normal terminal settings 
[23:23] <duuude> lynorian[m]: good you did
[23:24] <lynorian[m]> I got a bit of eyestrain unforatnetly
[23:24] <duuude> what is wrong for inclusion for one version? it could be reverted in a minute.
[23:25] <duuude> lynorian[m]: I play them for hours a day. maybe it is from somewhere else?
[23:25] <wxl> duuude: would you be open to some brutually honest constructive feedback?
[23:25] <duuude> wxl: yeah
[23:26]  * duuude waits for two word reply
[23:27] <wxl> duuude: your approach to this whole thing does more to ruin your chances of success than not. instead of just nagging about this over and over again, just accept that not everyone feels the same way you do. accept that the lubuntu council will rule on this in the end. in the meanwhile, i'm not sure contuining to go on and on in circles is really helping. in fact, i'm quite sure it isn't.
[23:28] <duuude> wxl: thank you for replying. I was comparing a sure no with some chance of winning by resolving the ambiguities you guys may have.
[23:28] <duuude> thank you all for the responses
[23:29] <wxl> duuude: that is meant in the nicest way possible. i like what you've created. keep at it. i appreciate your enthusiasm, but please find the way to channel it towards something practical.
[23:29] <wxl> duuude: put another way, you've made your inquiry. you've made your arguments. now just wait patiently for the reply— from the lubuntu council.
[23:30] <duuude> isn't the lubuntu council y'all??
[23:30] <wxl> meanwhile, if you're bored, you can always help test lubuntu and/or do development with the existing packages we already have
[23:30] <wxl> not all of us, no. i've been on the council but am not currently serving. i've been a contributor for a long long time.
[23:31] <wxl> and even still it will require a formal vote from the council
[23:31] <duuude> ok. but someone please mention the prospect of putting it there for one version and seeing the feedback while you are about to vote.
[23:32] <wxl> which is to say, like teward said, it wont' happen quickly
[23:32] <duuude> it does no harm to nobody
[23:32] <wxl> you already mentioned it
[23:32] <wxl> this is what i'm saying
[23:32] <duuude> and may be slightly good
[23:32] <duuude> ok.
[23:32] <wxl> say it once. 
[23:47] <teward> let me put this another way with a higher powered hat.  you will wait for a Council decision and not try to argue your point further  
[23:47] <teward> You already made your case.  Wait for a decision.  Further attempts to argue on this, and I won't hesitate to silence this discussion long term.
[23:59] <duuude> ok.