[11:47] <KGB-0> mutter ubuntu/jammy 940f498 Daniel van Vugt debian/patches/ series backends-x11-Return-zero-Hz-instead-of-nan-Hz-for-incompl.patch * Add backends-x11-Return-zero-Hz-instead-of-nan-Hz-for-incompl.patch * https://deb.li/3w9q7
[11:51] <KGB-0> mutter signed tags cf5a528 Jeremy Bicha ubuntu/42.9-0ubuntu2 * mutter Debian release 42.9-0ubuntu2 * https://deb.li/Xr2
[11:51] <KGB-0> mutter ubuntu/jammy 8284ce0 Jeremy Bícha debian/changelog * releasing package mutter version 42.9-0ubuntu2 * https://deb.li/3OZTC
[15:25] <GunnarHj> Hi kenvandine! seb128 suggested that I should consult with you about the snap implication of this proposal:
[15:25] <GunnarHj> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/let-selection-of-default-fonts-be-based-on-noto/36923
[15:25] <GunnarHj> Once the changes have been made in the system (mantic), we'd need to make the snaps reflect the new font configuration. Will it be necessary to create a core23 or a gnome-42-2310 snap or both? Will it be possible to load gnome-42-2310 with the font configuration from mantic under development and link the latest/stable/ubuntu-23.10 snaps to that?
[15:25] <GunnarHj> Before changing the system, it would be good to have a roadmap for how to deal with the snaps. I suppose we should avoid a long period of inconsistency.
[16:29] <GunnarHj> seb128: Wondering about https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/commit/?id=cc8498ab
[16:29] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Commit cc8498a in ~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu "Remove libreoffice specific dictionnaries from the desktop languages"
[16:29] <GunnarHj> Are you sure that those dicts are only useful in LibreOffice?
[16:42] <seb128> GunnarHj, there are built from the libreoffice-dictionaries source, also mythes-en-au Recommends libreoffice-write which was pulling the libreoffice stack back on the iso
[16:43] <seb128> I kept the hunspell dictionnaries 
[16:43] <seb128> but no, I'm not sure if they couldn't be of use for something else, I guess we will receive reports is someone is missing them
[16:49] <GunnarHj> seb128: Hmm.. Ok. I'm not sure either. But in any case I take it that pkg_depends should be changed so the presence of libreoffice-common is not a prerequisite for pulling hunspell dicts.
[16:49] <seb128> what is pkg_depends?
[16:49] <jbicha> GunnarHj: what is the effect of those files in the seed? we noticed that the packages are still kept in main because of a wildcard in the 'supported' file
[16:50] <GunnarHj> seb128: /usr/share/language-selector/data/pkg_depends
[16:54] <seb128> I guess
[16:55] <seb128> I woud need to check/remember how spellchecking is working in gedit for example but I think it's using enchant which uses hunspell and others sources
[16:55] <seb128> https://abiword.github.io/enchant/
[16:55] <GunnarHj> jbicha: I suppose they can be demoted to universe if/when LO is. But hunspell needs to stay in supported with wildcards so hunspell-XX can be pulled at installation when applicable.
[16:58] <GunnarHj> seb128: enshant is about spell checking only I think.
[17:03] <GunnarHj> seb128: Except for English, are there so many other sources than hunspell for spellchecking?
[17:06] <GunnarHj> jbicha: is it ok to drop fonts-liberation2 from desktop-minimal?
[17:06] <GunnarHj> https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntu/tree/desktop-minimal#n131
[17:06] <GunnarHj> It's a transitional package, v2 has been moved to fonts-liberation which is in desktop-common, and fonts-liberation2 has been dropped from unstable.
[17:08] <jbicha> GunnarHj: yes, go ahead and drop liberation2
[17:11] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok. I'll do it in a few days when making other fonts related changes in the seed.
[17:36] <KGB-0> gnome-control-center ubuntu/master 3216c6b Jeremy Bícha debian/patches/ series Check-best_mode-exist-before-adding-flag.patch * Cherry-pick patch to fix mirror mode crash when monitor resolutions don't match * https://deb.li/30ehn
[17:36] <KGB-0> gnome-control-center ubuntu/master 67a33e0 Jeremy Bícha debian/changelog * releasing package gnome-control-center version 1:44.3-1ubuntu2 * https://deb.li/deee
[18:30] <KGB-2> gnome-control-center signed tags ace1077 Jeremy Bicha ubuntu/1%44.3-1ubuntu2 * gnome-control-center Debian release 1:44.3-1ubuntu2 * https://deb.li/9ogj
[18:37] <juliank> jbicha: can  I read anything about why simple-scan and various others are dropped?
[18:40] <juliank> totem is hard, people not playing videos anymore? :D
[18:40] <juliank> I guess probabyl
[18:42] <KGB-0> eog tags 7566b25 Jeremy Bicha upstream/44.3 * Upstream version 44.3 * https://deb.li/39SXC
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest c583448 Jeremy Bicha * pushed 8 commits (first 5 follow) * https://deb.li/3xt9h
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest feb3dbc Felix Riemann meson.build * Post-release version bump * https://deb.li/ileWc
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest d37397e Sveinn í Felli po/is.po * Update Icelandic translation * https://deb.li/lVz
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest 72ae0aa Felix Riemann meson.build * build: Bump minimum glib version to 2.73.2 * https://deb.li/3xmls
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest 0cbb68f Rafael Fontenelle po/pt_BR.po * Update Brazilian Portuguese translation * https://deb.li/bLgv
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog upstream/latest ed91f19 Bruce Cowan po/en_GB.po * Update British English translation * https://deb.li/39oIn
[18:42] <KGB-2> eog pristine-tar c8ace22 Jarred Wilson eog_44.3.orig.tar.xz.delta eog_44.3.orig.tar.xz.id * pristine-tar data for eog_44.3.orig.tar.xz * https://deb.li/KoNe
[18:44] <jbicha> juliank: there's a long thread at https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/rethinking-ubuntu-desktop-a-more-thoughtful-default-installation/36736
[18:44] <juliank> thanks!
[18:45] <jbicha> juliank: I expect simple-scan at least would come back. That was just a first draft based on what the old -minimal was doing
[18:46] <jbicha> juliank: I'm guessing you noticed because of bug 2026637
[18:46] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Bug 2026637 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "[mantic] many useful apps are marked for auto removal" [High, Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2026637
[18:49] <juliank> jbicha: yeah that's a feature not a bug I'd say
[18:50] <juliank> jbicha: one can demote them to suggests in theory so they stay installed but we made ubuntu-release-upgrader also delete suggests so ...
[18:50] <juliank> and germinate doesn't do suggests
[18:51] <juliank> (AFAIK)
[18:51] <jbicha> we should have ubuntu-release-upgrader keep some of these installed, right?
[18:51] <juliank> The reasonings for those are (1) we want users who upgrade to have the same experience as users on a fresh install, (2) we want to clean up as much cruft as possible
[18:52] <juliank> if the users have atime for /usr u-r-u can stat the atime I guess and mark used apps as manually installed
[18:53] <juliank> oh and (3) behavior changes are to be expected during a release upgrade
[18:53] <juliank> there may be better ways to track usage of the apps, idk
[18:55] <juliank> otherwise one might add a ubuntu-desktop-legacy seed and then include the apps in there that were removed and install that
[18:56] <juliank> that can be removed from the archive after, and it can be marked for removal automatically which would transition its dependencies to manually installed
[18:57] <juliank> (when removing a metapackage explicitly, dependencies become autoremovable; if the metapackage is removed due to a conflict or something, the manual bit of the metapackage transitions to the dependencies)
[18:58] <jbicha> do you want to leave a comment on the bug about the metapackage idea?
[19:00] <juliank> I need to express the concept in a more thought out manner but yes
[19:01] <juliank> The problem is for devel users, a ubuntu-desktop-legacy would not be installed without a Recommends from ubuntu-desktop
[19:01] <juliank> which I guess you could have for a month and then drop it?
[19:02] <jbicha> my original idea of u-r-u wouldn't have helped devel users either
[19:03] <jbicha> maybe it's useful for our devel users to have these marked for autoremoval to encourage feedback on the proposal
[19:04] <juliank> possibly
[19:06] <KGB-2> epiphany-browser tags 4bc64f3 Jeremy Bicha upstream/44.5 * Upstream version 44.5 * https://deb.li/o4xA
[19:06] <KGB-0> epiphany-browser pristine-tar 737c830 Jarred Wilson epiphany-browser_44.5.orig.tar.xz.delta epiphany-browser_44.5.orig.tar.xz.id * pristine-tar data for epiphany-browser_44.5.orig.tar.xz * https://deb.li/Yoa7
[19:07] <seb128> juliank, jbicha, I think it's bad taste to remove those applications for users upgrading, it's not that we decided those are deprecated but rather than people should do the customization themself after installation
[19:08] <seb128> but if they are happy with what we provided and use them regularly it's going to be a WTH moment after upgrade if those things are missing
[19:08] <juliank> it's just figuring out how to keep them installed
[19:08] <juliank> we can also make germinate handle suggests I guess
[19:08] <juliank> then you can re-add them as like ((totem)) or something
[19:09] <juliank> they would remain installed for devel users, but you need some u-r-u quirk still
[19:09] <juliank> I don't know how much we care about the devel users losing apps
[19:10] <seb128> probably less than users on stable series
[19:10] <juliank> ubuntu-desktop-legacy makes it clear which apps were demoted I suppose
[19:10] <juliank> perhaps a bad name
[19:10] <juliank> ubuntu-desktop-classic
[19:10] <juliank> then users if they remove ubuntu-desktop-classic, they will get autoremovals offered again
[19:10] <juliank> vs just piling on manual dependencies
[19:11] <juliank> But I don't have the strongest of opinions
[19:11] <juliank> when I did the work to make sure everything is marked as automatically installed, our thought was more about replacing apps rather than dropping functionality from the default set
[19:13] <juliank> well and libraries for sure
[19:13] <juliank> even libc6 used to be manually installed :D
[19:13] <seb128> right, that's not an usual situation but rather a shift of definition of what desktop is
[19:13] <juliank> an ubuntu-desktop-23.04  containing stuff that was in 23.04 but removed in 23.10
[19:13] <jbicha> yes, this is an exceptional case for Ubuntu Desktop although I guess some other desktop flavors occasionally do big changes too
[19:13] <juliank> one could version the experiences offered lol
[19:14] <juliank> then you accumulate ubuntu-desktop-$foo each time you upgrade from $foo
[19:15] <juliank> jak@jak-t14-g3:~:master$ aptitude why totem
[19:15] <juliank> i   ubuntu-desktop-minimal Depends  nautilus           
[19:15] <juliank> i A nautilus               Suggests totem | mp3-decoder
[19:15] <juliank> totem at least remains installed during devel lifetime :D
[19:15] <juliank> even chrome os has cheese, totem equivalents installed
[19:15] <juliank> and a simple scan equivalent
[19:16] <juliank> I think there's a new cooler scanning app in GNOME now?
[19:17] <jbicha> GNOME 45 is expected to include a new core app, Snapshot as a webcam app to replace Cheese . I haven't tried it yet. No Effects.
[19:17] <juliank> libreoffice kind of makes more sense for people to use snap
[19:17] <jbicha> I don't think anyone has tried to build a better simple-scan
[19:18] <jbicha> Snapshot is a Rust app. If it appears as a .deb this cycle, it will arrive late
[19:18] <juliank> hooray
[19:18] <jbicha> no time for MIRing it or Loupe (an EOG subsitute)
[19:19] <juliank> back in the day we had integration in nautilus with packagekit to automatically install mime handlers
[19:19] <juliank> I think that's all dead
[19:19] <juliank> but e.g. it would make sense if one doesn't ship libreoffice that clicking a .doc suggests the snap
[19:20] <juliank> simple-scan has a newer flatpak than snap
[19:22] <juliank> oh perhaps we can have those applications like lazily installed
[19:22] <juliank> like what if gnome shell showed you the apps sort of greyed out and if you click them the store opens to intsall them
[19:23] <juliank> I've seen this somewhere
[19:24] <juliank> search for email find no app, offer thunderbird snap
[19:31] <seb128> juliank, the nautilus/packagkit integration is expected to be still working (maybe it's not but that would be a bug and an important one to fix as we remove some applications)
[19:45] <juliank> yup it does
[19:45] <juliank> the gnome-software fork that is still used just is ugh
[19:45] <juliank> no icons, and just ordered alphabetically
[19:46] <juliank> whatever happens one would expect us to have highlighted apps for mime types
[19:47] <juliank> a list of apps somewhere of favorites and group them above other apps
[19:47] <juliank> to guide users to the optimal experience