=== cpaelzer_ is now known as cpaelzer
[09:01] <KGB-2> gtk4 Simon McVittie 421631 * commented merge request !13 * https://salsa.debian.org/gnome-team/gtk4/-/merge_requests/13#note_421631
[09:01] -ubottu:#ubuntu-desktop- Merge 13 in gnome-team/gtk4 "Draft: [bookworm] Fix truncation in places sidebar with large text accessibility setting" [Opened]
[09:03] <seb128> goood morning desktopers
[11:16] <GunnarHj> Hi seb128, jbicha! Wonder if you have any thoughts on this:
[11:16] <GunnarHj> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/reconsider-the-preinstalled-lcg-latin-etc-fonts/37762
[11:26] <seb128> GunnarHj, hey, I don't
[11:38] <jbicha> GunnarHj: years ago, KDE had really incomplete support for color emoji fonts so that's why I had hesitated to include it in desktop-common earlier
[11:39] <jbicha> but I see it's now seeded by Kubuntu so yes, I think fonts-noto-color-emoji should be moved to desktop-common
[12:20] <GunnarHj> seb128: Would it make you unhappy if I dropped fonts-dejavu-core and fonts-freefont-ttf? They — or their equivalents — have been there since the early days of Ubuntu. Or are you fine with dropping them?
[12:21] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, will do. What about fonts-opensymbol? fonts-noto-core includes the "Noto Sans Symbols" and "Noto Sans Symbols2" fonts.
[12:22] <jbicha> GunnarHj: do you think fonts-opensymbol is needed?
[12:23] <GunnarHj> jbicha: No, I don't think so. Would suggest that we try to drop that too and see what happens.
[12:23] <jbicha> oh it looks like LibreOffice would need it, maybe just LibreOffice .deb ? https://packages.debian.org/unstable/fonts-opensymbol
[12:25] <GunnarHj> jbicha: But then let libreoffice pull it. Not needed for the seed IMO.
[12:26] <GunnarHj> (I thought libreoffice was dropped from the default... Second thoughts?)
[12:34] <jbicha> LibreOffice is dropped from Ubuntu Desktop's default install. I don't think it's coming back for 23.10
[12:35] <GunnarHj> seb128: Let me add that I want to include fonts-dejavu-mono in the seed, so dropping fonts-dejavu-core is about serif and sans-serif fonts where the more complete fonts-noto-core replaces it.
[12:36] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Does that lead us to the conclusion that fonts-opensymbol can be dropped from the seed?
[12:37] <jbicha> GunnarHj: do you want to test if bullets work correctly in the LibreOffice snap after removing that package?
[12:38] <jbicha> are snaps able to ship their own fonts? you're a lot more familiar with how fonts interact with snaps than I am
[12:38] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Good idea. I can do that later.
[12:42] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ah, now I understand your doubts. I'm not able to confirm that snap apps can install their own fonts. What I know is that they can use fonts on the system host.
[13:41] <KGB-2> gtk4 Jeremy Bicha 421762 * commented merge request !13 * https://deb.li/3O56V
[13:42] <GunnarHj> jbicha: I uninstalled fonts-opensymbol and had still no problem with creating a bulleted list in Libreoffice Writer (the snap). Also e.g. ∑ was properly displayed. I think that such basic symbols are provided by multiple packages, since it kept working also when I had uninstalled both fonts-noto-core and fonts-dejavu-core.
[13:43] <jbicha> GunnarHj: ok, I'm fine with dropping fonts-opensymbol. libreoffice-core (deb) depends on it already
[13:45] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, good. I'll try to ping Steve later too, and see if he has any objections to the proposed changes.
[13:46] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Btw, do you have an opinion on the Atkinson Hyperlegible font? Would a MIR be worth it to include it by default for the benefit of visually impaired users?
[14:03] <KGB-2> gtk4 Simon McVittie 421768 * commented merge request !13 * https://deb.li/8She
[14:08] <KGB-2> gtk4 Jeremy Bicha 421769 * commented merge request !13 * https://deb.li/3eYLF
[14:19] <KGB-2> gtk4 Simon McVittie 421771 * commented merge request !13 * https://deb.li/3D5Xi
[14:23] <KGB-2> gtk4 Jeremy Bicha 421772 * commented merge request !13 * https://deb.li/BYG0
[14:48] <KGB-2> nautilus ubuntu/master 30c2907 Jeremy Bícha debian/patches/ series ubuntu/Revert-sidebar-Build-with-cloudproviders-support.patch * Drop cloudproviders patch: no longer needed * https://deb.li/3P78c
[14:59] <JanC> I think OpenSymbol might be needed for the LO formula editor (unless some other font provides all the glyphs it uses too, e.g. something from Noto)
[15:09] <GunnarHj> JanC: fonts-noto-core, which includes Noto Sans Symbols and Noto Sans Symbols2, will be shipped by default. We assume those will provide what's needed, but we haven't tested it that deep.
[15:11] <JanC> yeah, mostly pointing at the part of LO that is most likely to be affected, as it's hidden away in the UI quite well if you don't use it  :)
[15:14] <GunnarHj> JanC: The libreoffice-core .deb package depends on fonts-opensymbol anyway. But in the case of the LO snap, and if really requires OpenSymbol, I can think it it should be added to the snap.
[15:20] <GunnarHj> JanC: OTOH, and since nobody can tell for sure, maybe keep it in the seed for now.
[15:20] <JanC> there might be a MS Office metrics compatibility thing also; so maybe best ask upstream about that for the snap
[15:21] <jbicha> GunnarHj: since opensymbol is built by the LO source package, perhaps it is already embedded in the snap?
[15:22] <JanC> yeah, it might have a private location for it where it looks if it's not a system font
[15:23] <GunnarHj> jbicha, JanC: I had a look ("snap run --shell libreoffice") and found only DejaVu.
[15:25] <GunnarHj> So the long "Recommends:" list in the libreoffice .deb binary seems not to be reflected in the snap. Neither the depend on fonts-opensymbol.
[15:28] <jbicha> ricotz: ^
[16:00] <ricotz> GunnarHj, jbicha, I see, although add more externals binaries will increase the snap size once more :\
[16:00] <ricotz> this can't be a reasonable solution
[16:03] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Is it a reasonable solution to install an overflow of font packages on the system host for everyone only for the case that the user chooses to install the LO snap?
[16:03] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Do you know which packages are really required for LO?
[16:07] <ricotz> GunnarHj, the list of fonts-* as seen here should cover the essentials - https://git.launchpad.net/~libreoffice/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/tree/control?h=wip/mantic-7.6#n170
[16:10] <ricotz> GunnarHj, I guess having such an overlay would help, staging hunspell-* debs is a similar issue which other snaps would make use of too
[16:11] <ricotz> meaning hunspell-*, hyphen-* and mythes-*
[16:11] <ricotz> https://git.launchpad.net/~libreoffice/+git/libreoffice-snap/tree/snapcraft.yaml?h=7.5#n280
[16:19] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Ok, but unless I miss something, you don't mention how a user who installs the LO snap would be prompted to install additional font packages.
[16:21] <ricotz> GunnarHj, my knowledge is limited on what is possible with snaps in that regard
[16:24] <ricotz> GunnarHj, I have no idea "how" the user should be prompted -- having well defined defaults, e.g. based on the user's locale
[16:25] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Since you mentioned hunspell, hyphen and mythes I can mention that check-language-support now pulls hunspell-* for all users (given the locale) but only pulls hyphen-* and mythes-* if the LO deb is installed.
[16:25] <ricotz> there are several special cases in the deb packaging based on the "system locale"
[16:26] <ricotz> GunnarHj, I see, the a snap is able to use those in confined mode?
[16:26] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Yes, there are. /usr/share/language-selector/data/pkg_depends is part of that.
[16:28] <GunnarHj> ricotz: Hmm.. Probably confined snaps won't see hyphen and mythes... As regards hunspell there is a special solution in place for the FF snap, if I remember correctly.
[16:29] <GunnarHj> * Looks like this move from LO deb to LO snap creates quite some desktop integration issues *
[16:30] <ricotz> GunnarHj, I really don't think you want to move the libreoffice to snap
[16:30] <ricotz> even the temp folder or read from /usr/* issues are quite severe
[16:31] <ricotz> and running a snap in non-confined mode has no benefits
[16:31] <ricotz> GunnarHj, could you elaborate the intention to move "libreoffice to snap" plan?
[16:32] <ricotz> it is quite unfortunate that this didn't reach my attention
[16:35] <GunnarHj> ricotz: No-no, don't ask me about that. The only thing I know is that the LO deb will not be installed by default in 23.10. And that a LO snap is present. The rest is my personal speculation. Please as the desktop team about the actual plans.
[16:36] <ricotz> GunnarHj, I see, sorry
[16:37] <ricotz> I tried the follow that discourse topic, and dropping essential applications from the image is a huge mistake imho
[16:38] <GunnarHj> ricotz: But the conclusion of this, I suppose, is that if you don't want to load the LO snap with a bunch of font packages, we probably need to figure out a good way to prompt the user to install them if they install the LO snap.
[16:40] <GunnarHj> ricotz: I have also expressed my hesitation about dropping all those apps.
[16:40] <ricotz> GunnarHj, imho such snap "dependencies" should be installed automatically
[16:41] <ricotz> or having a more layered hierarchy of snaps to provide essential core libraries
[16:42] <ricotz> e.g. having to rebuild libreoffice snap when openssl gets a security update is quite wasteful
[16:44] <ricotz> there is for sure room to improve libreoffice's snapcraft.yaml
[16:46] <ricotz> GunnarHj, is there a complete manual for syntax of snapcraft.yaml?
[16:49] <GunnarHj> ricotz: I have absolutely no idea. I'm more or less a snap illiterate. :/
[16:50] <ricotz> GunnarHj, ah ok ;)
[16:51] <GunnarHj> ricotz: And I agree on the desirable to install such dependencies automatically. Don't know if the approach to do so has been invented yet.
[16:59] <GunnarHj> jbicha: One conclusion of this conversation, as I see it, is that it's ok to go on with the proposed changes in the seed. As regards the LO snap aspects, there is a need to look into a proper desktop integration regardless. Do you agree?
[19:29] <KGB-0> gnome-remote-desktop signed tags 10bcc40 Jeremy Bicha upstream/45_beta * Upstream version 45~beta * https://deb.li/iQkt2
[19:29] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest 046cf5a Jeremy Bicha * pushed 97 commits (first 5 follow) * https://deb.li/nKME
[19:29] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest d1b2ad8 Pascal Nowack src/ grd-session-rdp.c grd-session-rdp.h * session-rdp: Add API to notify a new frame * https://deb.li/iUGRe
[19:29] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest 63030b9 Pascal Nowack src/ (5 files) * rdp: Simplify encode handling * https://deb.li/lhw7
[19:30] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest 07d81cd Pascal Nowack src/grd-rdp-pipewire-stream.c * rdp-pipewire-stream: Fix race condition when stream is destroyed * https://deb.li/3EGYd
[19:30] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest 97e4171 Pascal Nowack src/grd-session-rdp.c * session-rdp: Fix incomplete warning message * https://deb.li/5drF
[19:30] <KGB-2> gnome-remote-desktop upstream/latest d7fcf69 Pascal Nowack src/grd-rdp-monitor-config.c * rdp-monitor-config: Remove superfluous size sanitization * https://deb.li/3XNT1
[20:31] <JanC> if you want to make the minimal installs smaller you should do something about the ~1 GiB of firmwares that are included... LibreOffice is "small" compared to that...   ;)