[00:00] <arraybolt3> alright, sasl working
[00:05] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Oh good!
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/57a40c93/file_9995.jpg
[00:25] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: ok I'll send you my final diff ^^^^^^^^^^^
[00:25] <Eickmeyer> \o/
[00:25] <tsimonq2> If you set Prompt=normal, I think it should JFDI. If not, set the EOL date for Jammy in the csv file to something earlier, or whatever.
[00:26] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I'm keeping my test version number as-is, fight me :P
[00:26] <Eickmeyer> hehehe
[00:27] <Eickmeyer> Feel free to send it, but I probably won't action anything until Monday. Tired and need to rest. Took the boy to the pumpkin patch with his friends today.
[00:27] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: No worries; I'd at least like you to glance at the changelog and chuckle ;)
[00:28] <Eickmeyer> Am I going to have to debdiff my git repo?
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/28b67de2/yay.patch
 Nah, that's a clean patch for the latest commit
[00:30] <Eickmeyer> PfffffffhAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[00:30] <tsimonq2> You're welcome >:D
[00:30] <tsimonq2> I mean, technically, your code DDoSes git.launchpad.net
[00:30] <tsimonq2> make no use = make it not use
[00:31] <tsimonq2> #ErichsFault
[00:31] <Eickmeyer> #BlameSimon
[00:31]  * lubot [matrix] <arraybolt3> assigns fault to teward for absolutely no reason
[00:31] <Eickmeyer> Screw it, I'm keeping that changelog entry with a big ol' [ Simon Quigley ] right above it.
[00:33] <Eickmeyer> FWIW, I had a changelog entry for ubuntustudio-meta 0.300 with the entry * We. Are. SPARTA!!! in it.
[00:34] <tsimonq2> BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[00:35] <teward> *pushes arraybolt3 out of the project out of spite*
[00:35] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I mean, I *would* feel *slightly* embarrassed if that went into an SRU like that :P
[00:35] <teward> you blamed me so i mean xD
[00:35] <tsimonq2> (I think vorlon would laugh though, so)
[00:35] <teward> *sips hot cocoa*
[00:35] <tsimonq2> teward: OH right let me sponsor your shiznit rq
[00:35] <tsimonq2> btw it's a blindsponsor idc
[00:36]  * lubot [matrix] <arraybolt3> disregards teward's ban and re-joins via a VPN
[00:36] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: I know for a fact vorlon saw it because he did the very next upload.
[00:37] <tsimonq2> "How tf do you use GBP again?"
[00:41] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Now, since I'm a good open source citizen, I'm sending a PR to KDE for this.
[00:41] <teward> *pulls out the Community Council hat and hard-slaps arraybolt3 from On High*
[00:41] <teward> tsimonq2: i mentioned in my email i have a few sponsors willing to blind/semiblind stuff I have direct upload on anyways
[00:42] <teward> so i can still contribute until my key is replaced. but with someone from the Debian Community Team on the list and hoping for a swift resolution that should help with the keysign issues
[00:44] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: To be fair, neon is only ddosing their own servers. :P
[00:45] <tsimonq2> teward: cool :)
[00:45] <tsimonq2> teward: blindsponsoring is discouraged but... you're teward :P
[00:45] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Do you have a KDE Identity account? me no haz access
[00:45] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: I do.
[00:45] <tsimonq2> Was supposed to send me an email... didn't. Lmao.
[00:46] <arraybolt3> I have one too fwiw
[00:46] <Eickmeyer> bruh
[00:46] <teward> tsimonq2: given blindsponsor for xca is equivalent to me uploading w/o sponsoring... :P
[00:46] <teward> i dont think anyone will argue just make sure to close the rds
[00:46] <teward> rfs*
[00:48] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I just used my Altispeed email and it worked, plus Kubuntu is the Standard at Altispeed, so, that works ;)
[00:48] <tsimonq2> teward: fair :)
[00:48] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Not surprised. Noah has great taste.
[00:49] <teward> *sits here with the command line smiling evilly at all the DEs*
[00:50] <teward> HALF my crap I do is CLI anyways so xD
[00:50] <teward> unrelated LETS GOOO APPLE CIDER AIR FRESHENER SCENTS
[00:50] <Eickmeyer> 90% of what I do is GUI because art/music.
[00:51] <teward> ye i thrive in CLI
[00:51] <Eickmeyer> teward: How much coffee or alcohol have you had tonight?
[00:51] <teward> like creating the EMAIL SERVER ANEW for Lubuntu
[00:52] <teward> Eickmeyer: at lunch 3 cups of coffee.  dinner had 1 cup.  no alcohol
[00:52] <tsimonq2> Email servers *shudders*
[00:52] <teward> i'm just a man of simple pleasures
[00:52] <tsimonq2> teward: Coffee at dinner?!? hah
[00:52] <arraybolt3> I'd drink coffee at dinner :P
[00:52] <Eickmeyer> teward: You are less grumpy than usual. It's nice to see.
[00:53] <teward> pfft that won't last xD
[00:54] <teward> i had a good night's sleep, some caffeine, time out and about
[00:54] <teward> and now i'm about to wage war with Microsoft again because MS365 is a **bitch** somewhat
[00:54] <teward> oops i forgot i'm on IRC i shouldn't swear
[00:54] <Eickmeyer> !language | teward 😁
[00:54] <teward> *slaps Eickmeyer with a rotting fish*
[00:54] <Eickmeyer> hehehe
[00:55] <arraybolt3> *installs a custom immutable distro on teward's daily driver*
[00:55] <Eickmeyer> *lubuntu core desktop intensifies*
[00:55] <arraybolt3> speaking of which, was there progress on the immutable Ubuntu desktop spins lately?
[00:56] <Eickmeyer> WIP as far as I know, arraybolt3 .
[00:56] <tsimonq2> https://invent.kde.org/system/distro-release-notifier/-/merge_requests/6
[00:56] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Merge 6 in system/distro-release-notifier "Instead of using a remote service, query distro-info-data" [Opened]
[03:32] <teward> tsimonq2: learn to read email bounces.  the reasons and original messages are provided intentionally in the bounces.  Origin sender DMARC breaks mailing lists.
[03:32] <teward> if i have to say it again i'mma start charging by the email xD
[04:29] <arraybolt3> mmm, sounds like we're about to have to invent e-stamps
 I really do have an itch to write an autopkgtest for plasma-d-u-n because it's so darn fidgety to test manually
 Okay, so I have that selection screen working in Cala \o/
 There's a patch to Cala itself updating some behavior to, well, work lol
 I'll post the PR when it's up
 Side note, Cala looks 10x better with lxqt-sudo -E - why did we disable env var passing again? Something with teeming? guiverc @kc2bez @arraybolt3
[15:53] <arraybolt3> IIRC we disabled it because Calamares stopped launching altogether with it for a while.
 Oh really?
[15:53] <arraybolt3> I think we switched it over to pkexec because of that.
[15:53] <arraybolt3> Thus the horrible theming.
[15:54] <arraybolt3> I guess if it works with lxqt-sudo again, may as well switch back :D
 Well, this cycle will be frontloaded with lots of stuff to test, I think adding that onto the list isn't outside the realm of possibility
[15:54] <arraybolt3> +1
 Also, that -E option is my new code
 Per bdmurray's request, at least the release upgrader needs it
[15:55] <arraybolt3> Yeah, I think that's what happened - we were running it with normal sudo or something and it was causing some weird (dbus-reladed?) start failure.
 I don't see why we couldn't use it here
[15:55] <arraybolt3> So yeah, if it works, shipit
[15:55] <arraybolt3> Speaking of which, I'm itching to actually *do* something now that I'm back, perhaps I should start fiddling with the idea of a Wayland session via a PPA...
 Also, I'm switching all of our sources.list files on install to deb822, right at the dawn of the cycle
[15:56] <arraybolt3> deb822?
[15:56]  * arraybolt3 is unaware of a standard most likely
 Go for it :) also, we should have native theming for Qt 6 apps. That just needs a Qt 6 build of lxqt-qtplugin, which just needs packaging. I just don't know how it works with both installed at the same time
[15:56] <arraybolt3> \o/
 LXQt won't be ready for full Qt 6 this cycle I don't think, but we should at least be theming individual components
 For example, Cala porting just finished like... yesterday
[15:57] <arraybolt3> Probably because of missing KF6 components I would ugess?
[15:57] <arraybolt3> (re: not ready for full qt 6 this cycle)
 Cala Qt6 fully functional, QML modules load, virtualkeyboard looks much better now : https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/8475bd17/file_9999.jpg
 Yeah exactly
[15:57] <arraybolt3> oh fancy
 I've heard from some KDE Sources that they recommend we don't ship KF6 this cycle
[15:58] <arraybolt3> Yeah, don't "D
[15:58] <arraybolt3> *:D
 https://repolib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/deb822-format.html
 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/spec-apt-deb822-sources-by-default/29333
[15:58] <arraybolt3> (I was still working with KDE while I was gone since that was part of my job, so I've been tracking some of the Plasma 6 ~~mayhem~~ progress)
[16:00] <arraybolt3> Oh wow so they entirely changed the whole file format for sources.list
[16:01] <arraybolt3> Now it looks more like a control file :P
 we were using just `sudo` which was problematic. pkexec was the upstream preference so rather than buck the system... (re @tsimonq2: Side note, Cala looks 10x better with lxqt-sudo -E - why did we disable env var passing again? Something with theming? guiverc @kc2bez @arraybolt3)
 That makes sense, and to be clear, I agree with the logic that got us here (re @kc2bez: we were using just sudo which was problematic. pkexec was the upstream preference so rather than buck the system...)
 That being said, lxqt-sudo is meant to be a drop-in replacement for pkexec
 And to be clear I like where you are going with it.
 Sounds good :)
 Umm, where did the Calamares packaging repo go?
[16:24] <arraybolt3> https://git.lubuntu.me/Lubuntu/calamares-packaging ?
 Yeah, that is a mirror though to the somewhat behind GitHub
 I thought it was in LP
 https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares
 but obviously nothing there ^
 Anyway, I was going to point out that we need to edit this patch https://git.lubuntu.me/Lubuntu/calamares-packaging/src/branch/ubuntu/kinetic/debian/patches/0001-replace-pkexec-by-sudo.patch
[17:22] <tsimonq2> https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares-settings-ubuntu/commit/?h=ubuntu/future/nn
[17:22] <tsimonq2> bah this is better https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares-settings-ubuntu/commit/?h=ubuntu/future/nn&id=960bde6b67cdc0dcd64c26816de1f24ee51e1807
[17:22] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Commit 960bde6 in ~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares-settings-ubuntu "Finish the prototype for pkgselect, which stores the values in GlobalStorage for later usage by a contextualprocess ubuntu/future/nn"
[17:43] <tsimonq2> Now, the biggest hurdle will be grabbing the snap preseed logic from livecd-rootfs...
[17:46]  * Eickmeyer watches tsimonq2 reinvent the wheel for reasons
[17:46] <tsimonq2> Yeah, that's right, unfortunately >_<
[18:08] <arraybolt3> Sorry for leaves/joins, having network problems influenced by a problematic NVIDIA setup
[18:57] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: You're good, I have them hidden anyway.
[18:57] <tsimonq2> (And I would suggest you do the same, maybe except for the support channel :) )
[18:57] <tsimonq2> This script... actually works. Problem is twofold though:
[18:58] <tsimonq2>  A) Let's say firefox depends on core22. In a few years, it will depend on core24, but there is *nothing* telling snapd "hey, there's no more connections here, remove the old snap".
[18:58] <tsimonq2>  B) There is *no* dependency resolution. Which means we'll have to hack it together ourselves.
[18:59] <tsimonq2> Those are existing problems we already face; in livecd-rootfs it's simply worked around.
[19:00] <tsimonq2> I mean, if I want to get weird, I could add a snap autoremove in l-u-n >:P
[19:00] <tsimonq2> (I'm sure I'd hear some choice words from the snap team ;) )
[19:03] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: The way it's done, snaps are frozen in releases, meaning firefox in 23.10 will always be firefox release/stable/ubuntu-23.10, so whatever was released with it. The core22 requirement would never change. Any changes in the next release need to be done in the seed. For LTS, that also won't change as release/stable/ubuntu-22.04 will always
[19:03] <Eickmeyer> use core20, even in point releases.
[19:04] <Eickmeyer> Everything is done in the seed, and cala shouldn't have to handle it.
[19:05] <tsimonq2> Except if Calamares is installing new snaps (with a disclaimer!!!!!) that are *NOT* already pre-seeded.
[19:05] <tsimonq2> I'm imagining like, an LTS to LTS upgrade. Those old snaps won't be removed, will they?
[19:05] <Eickmeyer> That would go against TB guidance (which they would tell you).
[19:05] <tsimonq2> Where are the docs?
[19:05] <tsimonq2> Last I heard, TB said it was fine with a disclaimer.
[19:05] <Eickmeyer> LTS to LTS, snaps are handled by ubuntu-release-upgrader.
[19:06] <tsimonq2> In this case, it's not much different than allowing the users to install snaps via, idk, Discover.
[19:06] <tsimonq2> Opt-in, with a disclaimer, with trusted snaps, on the existing snap store.
[19:06] <tsimonq2> What's the problem?
[19:06] <Eickmeyer> They simply do "snap --switch {new target}" via ubuntu-release-upgrader.
[19:06] <tsimonq2> Hm.
[19:07] <Eickmeyer> That's for seeded snaps.
[19:07] <Eickmeyer> What's the use case for Cala installing snaps?
[19:07] <tsimonq2> Let me ask again: show me the money :)
[19:07] <tsimonq2> Where's the policy?
[19:07]  * Eickmeyer looks for it
[19:09] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1apUKR4gtOrfPGCWmtoebaQUhoy-fG8Cyo3VKJyhnpD0/edit#
[19:10] <tsimonq2> "If a user explicitly chooses to opt in to some other software source and is reasonably informed or is otherwise reasonably expected to understand that this choice means that Ubuntu is not responsible for software installed from this source, then this policy does not apply. "
[19:10] <tsimonq2> You were saying?
[19:11] <Eickmeyer> Scroll down to Appendix C, but I've been given hard NACKs by vorlon.
[19:12] <Eickmeyer> Also, I was told to remove the PPA enablement of the Ubuntu Studio Backports PPA from ubuntustudio-installer by vorlon because it goes against that doc.
[19:12] <tsimonq2> Again, doesn't apply if they're "reasonably informed"
[19:12] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, they were reasonably informed, and still got the hard NACK.
[19:12] <Eickmeyer> I saw it as no different from `add-apt-repository` and was still told NACK.
[19:13] <tsimonq2> "We are NOT responsible for these packages, install at your own risk" that clearly falls under the exception
[19:13] <tsimonq2> Doesn't Ubuntu MATE do this?
[19:13] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, I tried that too. Ubuntu MATE is being told NACK and ignoring it.
[19:13] <Eickmeyer> Notice Ubuntu MATE doesn't exactly participate in Ubuntu much anymore.
[19:14] <tsimonq2> If this is the policy text, I'll go by the policy text, unless the TB has resolved to amend the policy text.
[19:15] <Eickmeyer> Here's the thing: they're writing one thing and certain members are saying another. It's really confusing.
[19:15] <Eickmeyer> And the AAs can't agree either.
[19:16] <tsimonq2> In this case, I think I'll be asking for forgiveness instead of permission.
[19:16] <tsimonq2> The policy clearly gives it an exception.
[19:16] <Eickmeyer> I think these are feathers you don't want to ruffle.
[19:16] <tsimonq2> Remember when I refused to ship snapd for several releases in Lubuntu? I have ruffled these feathers before.
 It has had some heavy discussion
[19:16] <Eickmeyer> I was explicitly told, in no uncertain terms, to remove the code from ubuntustudio-installer.
[19:18] <Eickmeyer> It's part of the reason we're sunsetting our backports PPA.
 Different sheriffs in town now. (re @lubuntu_bot: (irc) <tsimonq2> Remember when I refused to ship snapd for several releases in Lubuntu? I have ruffled these feathers before.)
[19:20] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Give me some logs so I can prepare my defense, please.
[19:21] <Eickmeyer> It was while I was trying to put together edubuntu-installer for similar purposes minus the backports PPA and vorlon admonished me.
[19:25] <tsimonq2> Let me see what I can do.
 It was also discussed at one of the flavor meetings, I don't think we have any logs for that.
[19:35] <Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2023/01/12/%23ubuntu-release.html#t19:16
[19:35] <Eickmeyer> Specifically: vorlon	hopefully not too much like ubuntustudio-installer which afaik has been out of compliance with TB guidance around third-party repositories for years
[19:36] <Eickmeyer> That implies it needed to be removed even though there was a warning.
[19:36] <Eickmeyer> I was remembering incorrectly about being explicitly told.
[19:39] <tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: See PM
[20:10] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: Hey, yo, did you save SVGs for those slideshow images?
[20:19] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: Sadly, never made SVGs.
[20:19] <arraybolt3> The source files are and always have been XCFs.
[20:19] <tsimonq2> So uh, what's that? XD
[20:20] <arraybolt3> XCF = GIMP's native raster file format
[20:20] <tsimonq2> Ah, cool.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> I almost wonder if we could do something to generate those more dynamically. You know, for locales and all that.
[20:20] <arraybolt3> I belive I sent the files earlier, but I can resend them if desired.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> Please :)
[20:20] <arraybolt3> But now that I'm here I can maybe do more slideshow and wallpaper work :)
[20:20] <arraybolt3> One moment, gotta wash a spatula
[20:20] <tsimonq2> No worries :)
[20:23] <arraybolt3> ZIP payload coming in hot!
 file Archive.zip too big to download (3021194 > allowed size: 1000000)
[20:24] <arraybolt3> lubot doesn't like it, but it's on Matrix.
[20:24] <arraybolt3> Hmm, the locales stuff sounds interesting.
[20:25] <arraybolt3> Also I can try and make the next slideshow SVG-based since it sounds like that's the preferred file format in these parts.
[20:25] <tsimonq2> I mean, whatever works, to be honest.
 We have the images in their native format in a repo
[21:18] <kc2bez> @tsimonq2 arraybolt3 https://git.lubuntu.me/Lubuntu/art-sources
[21:22] <kc2bez> Fair. I think we can probably do that, it is our own git.
[21:24] <kc2bez> It shouldn't be visible but you should still have access. I made it private.
[21:25] <kc2bez> 404s if I am not logged in.
 Cool. The Lubuntu logo is what I'm worried about.
[21:25] <kc2bez> Understood
[21:26] <kc2bez> Version control and branches are nice though :P
[21:27] <kc2bez> If we had an art team we could delegate access too.
 @tsimonq2 @kc2bez i would wait until Ubuntu Core switches to deb822 before standardizing it in Lubuntu because there could be Problems if its not done for all flavors simultaneously
 core being the core components of Ubuntu
 not the snapped Ubuntu Core version
 Why should that matter if deb822 support is fully baked?
 saw 822 on this cycle but Foundations is in charge of that stuff
 I already talked with juliank :)
 He's doing it this cycle
 @tsimonq2 on-upgrade tasks in d-r-u, etc.
 just sayin
 *shrug*
 also go take a day off you overwork yourself.
 they call it alpha for a reason XD
 nah I don't need one yet
 *puts tsimonq2 in the sleep chamber&
[21:47]  * kc2bez wonders about this sleep thing and thinks it might be nice to try it sometime.
[21:52] <kc2bez> It does seem prudent to plan for it. It seems to have a high likelyhood to happen in the NN cycle. The email thread starts here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2023-September/042791.html
 Having it on default install in an alpha is what we're going for, not force-migrating anyone XD
[21:53] <kc2bez> Seems like exactly the time to test
[21:57] <tsimonq2> apt-get -y --purge remove snapd vlc plasma-discover muon transmission-qt quassel 2048-qt featherpad noblenote kcalc qps zsync partitionmanager qapt-deb-installer picom qlipper qtpass libreoffice*
[21:57] <tsimonq2> That's minimal install right now.
[21:57] <tsimonq2> Any suggestions/tweaks/additions welcome.
[21:58] <arraybolt3> Install only what's necessary rather than installing everything and removing what's unneeded?
[21:58] <arraybolt3> I know that's probably impossible but...
[21:58] <tsimonq2> That would require squashfses, which do technically exist.
[21:58] <arraybolt3> because the installer just clones the squashfs which is a non-minimal install
[21:58] <tsimonq2> *layered squashfses
[21:58] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: Yeah, so I'd check to see if the main desktop ISO has layered squashfses, they might
[21:58] <arraybolt3> That's probably a bit much to ask from the live CD build infra people
[21:59] <arraybolt3> I don't have it downloaded at the moment... er...?
[21:59] <arraybolt3> wait I do
[21:59] <tsimonq2> Nah, it's a few lines of ancient, fragile bash that powers the whole build system XD
[21:59] <kc2bez> Xubuntu seems to get away with it
[21:59] <tsimonq2> wait a sec tho :)
[21:59] <tsimonq2> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/mantic/ubuntu/+build/511907
[21:59] <tsimonq2> OOOOOOOOH they do
[21:59] <arraybolt3> well would you look at that
[22:00] <arraybolt3> not just layered, but layers and layers and layers looks like
[22:00] <arraybolt3> holy smoke, last I looked inside one of these there was just one squashfs.img
[22:00] <arraybolt3> now it looks like someone sneezed into the ISO :P
[22:01] <tsimonq2> https://git.launchpad.net/livecd-rootfs/tree/live-build/auto/config#n213
[22:01] <arraybolt3> I wonder if this is a consequence of Subiquity that it's done like that now?
[22:01] <arraybolt3> But at any rate, if we can take advantage of that, I would love that.
[22:01] <tsimonq2> https://git.launchpad.net/livecd-rootfs/tree/live-build/auto/config#n716
[22:01] <arraybolt3> One disadvantage of a full install that is then pared down to a minimal one is that you have to have eough disk space to *do* a full install even if you only *want* a minimal one.
[22:02] <tsimonq2> Fun fact: a base install of Lubuntu with that "minimal install" is only like... 4.5 GB
[22:02] <arraybolt3> Another one is that as nice as apt purge is, it doesn't always really remove *everything*
[22:02] <arraybolt3> especially when snapd is in the picture
[22:02] <tsimonq2> I mean, since snaps are pre-seeded and snapd has never actually *launched*, that should be fine.
[22:02] <arraybolt3> (I once stripped snapd and Firefox out of a rather cramped machine to save space. The amount of leftovers from the process was... a lot. I had to go through and clean up so much)
[22:02] <arraybolt3> oh that's a good point
[22:03] <arraybolt3> oh, one more point of input, I wouldn't remove Featherpad from a minimal install.
[22:03] <arraybolt3> Vim probably takes up more space, is less-used, and most users will want to at least edit plain text even on a minimal machine.
[22:04] <tsimonq2> We are not removing Vim ever and that's final XD
[22:04] <arraybolt3> I know we all love Vim around here but for our general userbase... perhaps...
[22:04] <kc2bez> nano is there too
[22:04] <tsimonq2> That's it! Remove nano
[22:04] <arraybolt3> nano is hidden from the user
[22:04] <tsimonq2> >:P
[22:04] <kc2bez> XD
[22:04] <arraybolt3> Vim is at least somewhat visible but...
[22:05] <arraybolt3> Even if we keep Vim, I'd still say keep Featherpad in a minimal install. It's far too valuable for the average user.
[22:05] <kc2bez> I thought nano was the default on a fresh install
[22:05] <arraybolt3> If I booted up Windows and Notepad was missing I'd be a bit dismayed :P
[22:05] <arraybolt3> also... kcalc?
[22:05] <arraybolt3> Minimal != skeletal :D
[22:06] <kc2bez> I am good with that
[22:08] <kc2bez> Lubuntu 💀 edition XD
[22:09] <arraybolt3> I dunno, I guess I'm viewing a minimal install as if it were for a standard user, whereas that's what the standard install is for. The minimal one is for people who want to build from zero, so starting from zero makes sense.
[22:09] <kc2bez> You have a desktop environment :P
[22:09] <arraybolt3> exactly
[22:10] <tsimonq2> Only keeps openbox, no theming or DE XD
[22:10] <arraybolt3> In that instance, do we need the file archiver?
[22:10] <arraybolt3> How about ImageMagick, LXImage, and Skanlite? Qpdfview?
[22:10] <tsimonq2> Some of those need to be demoted to recommends in the seed first.
[22:11] <tsimonq2> Or, if we go the layered route, a separate seed entirely.
[22:11] <kc2bez> Imagemagick gets pulled in with something else
[22:11] <arraybolt3> VLC could be removed too.
[22:11] <tsimonq2> Also https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares-settings-ubuntu/commit/?h=ubuntu/future/nn&id=7435b14ef183971e8ce30ea271fa16a1d94f754c *COUGH*
[22:11] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Commit 7435b14 in ~ubuntu-qt-code/+git/calamares-settings-ubuntu "Completely finish the backend for pkgselect ubuntu/future/nn"
[22:11] <arraybolt3> Must be a Recommends of something since Lubuntu is happy to let me strip it out
[22:11] <tsimonq2> Looks like it's time for some deb822 ;)
[22:11] <arraybolt3> (re Imagemagick)
[22:11]  * tsimonq2 ducks
[22:11]  * arraybolt3 tosses tsimonq2
[22:11] <arraybolt3> you can't duck when you are the projectile
[22:12]  * kc2bez runs
[22:13] <arraybolt3> Anyway, those are my opinions. Either minimal should be just barely enough to be usable (so add back the text editor and calculator), OR we should take same route that former Xubuntu Core took and strip out *everything* except for the absolute minimum.
[22:13] <arraybolt3> Give the user a DE, a file manager, a terminal, and the desktop settings and call it a day.
[22:15] <arraybolt3> I personally would far prefer to see the latter happen.