[00:32] <Guest52> hello
[00:32] <Guest52> i just installed kubuntu on an old laptop, my system sometimes freezes and idk why, can anyone help?
[02:31] <user|17> I have installed kubuntu 23.10  twice now. In both cases from the net and from a download disk. both times the desktop for firefox in totally un:] readable and pixulated. Is there a fix for this coming.
[04:30] <tomreyn> user|17: the entire desktop is showing badly, or just firefox?
[04:31] <tomreyn> can you show a screenshot? (upload it to imgur.com or a similar site and link it here)
[04:32] <tomreyn> also, what does this print?   lspci -nnd ::0300
[07:48] <user|63> Hello, I still cannot play most video files - speifically.mp4. but also some other types. I have installed Kubuntu Extras and other recommended updates, but still cannot play those files.
[07:48] <user|63> What do you recoomend?
[07:49] <user|63> I meant to write retsricted-extras
[07:49] <user|63> restricted extras
[08:15] <Guest15> Hello... I am still cannot play most video files (like .mp4) in Kubuntu 23.04, even after installing Kubuntu-restriced-extras. Any ideas?
[08:16] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, what player?
[08:17] <Guest15> Any of the players - VLC, Mplayer...
[08:17] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, was it playing before?
[08:19] <Guest15> tried Dragon Player, haruna, celluloid, mpv - nothing
[08:19] <Guest15> Previous version of Kubuntu - yes, it was playing... but with 23.04 - nothing
[08:20] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, is this a new install/upgrade or what?
[08:20] <Guest15> I should mention that some older videos I have .mkv, play
[08:20] <Guest15> Kubuntu 23.04 is a new install
[08:23] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, after installing Kubuntu did you do: sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade
[08:23] <Guest15> I did sudo apt update, but not sudo apt upgrade
[08:24] <diogenes_Vx15> then first upgrade, reboot and come back.
[08:24] <Guest15> Do I need to do upgrade? It is a brand new install of 23.04
[08:24] <diogenes_Vx15> if there are any updates then of course you have to upgrade.
[08:25] <Guest15> Hmmm... did not know that... OK. I will do the sudo apt upgrade...
[08:27] <Guest15> I am going to do the upgrade command now... since it is the machine on which I am chatting here, I will lose you guys for a while... I hope the machine still boots OK after that
[08:29] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, you can join us from your phone.
[08:32] <Guest15> OK, I ran the command diogenes recommended. I should mention that it did a lot of stuff, but also returnedan error code of 1 - I think it has to do with the bluetooth process which is not working
[08:33] <Guest15> So now I will reboot and see if things have improved. I will wait a minute in case any of you guys have additional comments
[08:33] <diogenes_Vx15> wait
[08:33] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, don't reboot.
[08:33] <diogenes_Vx15> it should not return any errors.
[08:34] <diogenes_Vx15> pastebin the error and let's see what is going on.
[08:34] <Guest15> It has to do with bluetooth...
[08:34] <diogenes_Vx15> !pastebin
[08:34] <diogenes_Vx15> doesn't matter bluetooth or something else, there must not be any errors.
[08:37] <Guest15> Hold on... trying to give you the error ... here is what it gave at the end:
[08:37] <Guest15>  bluez
[08:37] <Guest15>  pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
[08:37] <Guest15>  bluedevil
[08:37] <Guest15>  bluetooth
[08:37] <Guest15>  blueman
[08:38] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, don't paste the output in the chat.
[08:38] <diogenes_Vx15> !pastebin
[08:40] <Guest15> I am not sure what I am doing wrong
[08:40] <Guest15> I used dpaste...
[08:40] <diogenes_Vx15> then share the link the url.
[08:40] <diogenes_Vx15> paste the url in the chat here.
[08:41] <Guest15> https://dpaste.com/GJ97JE4HT
[08:41] <Guest15> Like this?
[08:42] <Guest15> There was all the stuff from the original command, but it was OK - no error
[08:43] <diogenes_Vx15> ok like that but run: sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade
[08:43] <diogenes_Vx15> pne more time and paste the entire output.
[08:44] <Guest15> OK... hang on
[08:48] <Guest15> https://dpaste.com/82DVLQVM6
[08:53] <diogenes_Vx15> run: sudo apt purge bluez
[08:56] <Guest15> Done, here is the output: https://dpaste.com/GRH2EEBCJ
[08:58] <diogenes_Vx15> nasty errors, let's see your sources, run: apt-cache policy | nc termbin.com 9999
[08:58] <diogenes_Vx15> you will get an url in the terminal, paste it here.
[09:00] <Guest15> https://termbin.com/j0st
[09:04] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, run: sudo systemctl restart bluetooth
[09:04] <diogenes_Vx15> and see if you get any errors.
[09:07] <Guest15> https://dpaste.com/C5Z6J84KP
[09:08] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, ok let's hope the reboot can fix this, if not then we will see.
[09:09] <Guest15> And I ran the command it recommends and got this: https://dpaste.com/5Q5YLRWT6
[09:09] <Guest15> So, reboot now?
[09:09] <diogenes_Vx15> yes reboot.
[09:13] <Guest15> I am back...
[09:15] <diogenes_Vx15> let's see again: systemctl status bluetooth
[09:17] <Guest15> https://dpaste.com/5FUF6DN8A
[09:20] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, ok run: sudo dpkg -r --force-all bluez
[09:23] <Guest15> Diogenes - did that command. Here is the output: https://dpaste.com/8M56A97GR
[09:32] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, run: snap list bluez
[09:32] <diogenes_Vx15> does it show anything?
[09:33] <Guest15> Yes:
[09:33] <Guest15> greg@HTPC-Kata:~$ snap list bluez
[09:34] <Guest15> Name   Version  Rev  Tracking   Publisher   Notes
[09:34] <Guest15> bluez  5.64-4   356  22/stable  canonical✓  -
[09:34] <diogenes_Vx15> oh damn
[09:34] <diogenes_Vx15> run: sudo snap remove bluez
[09:35] <Guest15> Oh-oh... does not sound good
[09:35] <diogenes_Vx15> this snap madness is just crazy.
[09:36] <Guest15> Here is the result:
[09:36] <Guest15> bluez removed
[09:36] <diogenes_Vx15> now: sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade
[09:37] <Guest15> This time no errors. You want to see the whole output?
[09:38] <diogenes_Vx15> no no, if no errors then fine.
[09:38] <Guest15> OK, so now reboot again?
[09:38] <diogenes_Vx15> now run: snap list | nc termbin.com 9999
[09:38] <diogenes_Vx15> share the url.
[09:39] <Guest15> Here is the output:
[09:39] <Guest15> https://termbin.com/adhm
[09:41] <diogenes_Vx15> now run: dpkg -l | grep -i extras | nc termbin.com 9999
[09:43] <Guest15> Output:
[09:43] <Guest15> https://termbin.com/5uvw5
[09:43] <diogenes_Vx15> run: sudo apt purge kubuntu-restricted-extras
[09:45] <Guest15> It said it removed the restricted-extras.
[09:45] <Guest15> I should mention that in my attempts to get this working, I may have installed Ubuntu-restricted-extras as well...Should that be removed also?
[09:46] <diogenes_Vx15> that is not installed.
[09:46] <diogenes_Vx15> now run: sudo apt autoremove ubuntu-restricted-extras --purge
[09:46] <diogenes_Vx15> after that: sudo apt autoremove kubuntu-restricted-extras --purge
[09:47] <Guest15> Ah... you saw that from one of the outputs..
[09:48] <Guest15> OK done both commands
[09:48] <utkojhamela> I was thinking it was simething about releated to snap the whole time but wasn't sure :|
[09:49] <Guest15> First I heard of snap in the latest release
[09:50] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, ok now run: sudo apt autoremove && sudo apt autoclean
[09:50] <Guest15> Done
[09:51] <diogenes_Vx15> let's reboot.
[09:51] <Guest15> OK....
[09:53] <Guest15> I am back....
[09:54] <diogenes_Vx15> try to open some files in VLC.
[09:56] <Guest15> Not playiing...
[09:56] <Guest15> But don't I need to now install restricted-extras?
[09:56] <diogenes_Vx15> yes now run: sudo apt install ubuntu-restricted-extras
[09:57] <Guest15> Ubuntu?
[09:57] <Guest15> Not Kubuntu?
[09:58] <diogenes_Vx15> yes ubuntu.
[09:59] <Guest15> Done... no errors
[09:59] <Guest15> Reboot?
[10:00] <diogenes_Vx15> no, try to open with MPV.
[10:01] <Guest15> Tried, but I think mpv crashes... no message... just nothing happens
[10:01] <Guest15> Shall I try another player?
[10:02] <Guest15> ... or reboot?
[10:03] <diogenes_Vx15> no, try in termina: mpv /path/to/file.mp4
[10:03] <diogenes_Vx15> and let's see what error it shows.
[10:03] <Guest15> OK
[10:05] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, btw is this a virtual machine by any chance?
[10:07] <Guest15> Failed to recognize file format.
[10:07] <Guest15> Exiting... (Errors when loading file)
[10:08] <Guest15> Not virtual machine...
[10:12] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, open this in the browser and see if those videos play: https://samplelib.com/sample-mp4.html
[10:14] <Guest15> At least the first 3 videos play... Shall I try more of the videos on the page?
[10:16] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, no, download any sample video from here and play it with mpv: https://file-examples.com/index.php/sample-video-files/sample-mp4-files/
[10:20] <Guest15> Did... mpvv plays it locally
[10:21] <Guest15> mpv
[10:21] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, voilla, everything works, those files that don't play are just corrupted and that's why they don't play.
[10:22] <Guest15> I was afraid you were going to say that... when I saw it work, I thought that too
[10:22] <Guest15> Is there any way to fix the files
[10:23] <Guest15> And Thank you very much Diogenes and your coworkers who helped
[10:24] <diogenes_Vx15> Guest15, maybe try to open them in a video editor and see if it opens them and allows you to do any manipulations, try first Kdenlive.
[10:24] <Guest15> Thanks again Diogenes
[10:25] <diogenes_Vx15> no problem.
[10:25] <Guest15> Thank you. thank you, Thank you
[10:25] <diogenes_Vx15> :) you're very welcome.
[11:58] <stuffandthings> On 23.10, is anyone else having dolphin crash just about every time you copy a file to overwrite another?, happens to me on install/live dvd/vmware? 23.04 works just fine.
[12:03] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[12:04] <stuffandthings> Yo
[12:04] <BluesKaj> yoyo
[12:05] <stuffandthings> Whats up with whats going down?
[12:08] <BluesKaj> !chat
[12:09] <stuffandthings> right, right
[12:09] <stuffandthings> are you on 23.10?
[12:10] <BluesKaj> just ask your question if you have an issue
[12:11] <stuffandthings> I just did but it was right before you came on and no one else seems to be active. Every time I copy a file to overwrite another, it crashes dolphin, weather kubuntu is installed/running off live iso/running on vmware. 23.04 works fine.
[12:12] <stuffandthings> confirmed that the iso hash is fine
[12:14] <BluesKaj> you can't overwrite a file on a live session
[12:14] <stuffandthings> you can if its something you just downloaded onto a user folder like the desktop
[12:14] <stuffandthings> its running in memory, its not read only
[12:15] <stuffandthings> but besides that, it happens when installed too
[12:15] <BluesKaj> it'll be temporary afaik
[12:15] <BluesKaj> pw protected maybe
[12:16] <stuffandthings> but forgetting for a sec the live session, when running on an installed 23.10, even, i cannot overwrite on copy
[12:16] <stuffandthings> only move
[12:16] <stuffandthings> copy crashes dolphin
[12:16] <BluesKaj> what kind of file?
[12:16] <stuffandthings> anything
[12:17] <stuffandthings> make a new text file, make another somewhere else, copy it over the first one, crash
[12:17] <BluesKaj> have you updated and upgraded lately? I have to ask
[12:18] <stuffandthings> yep, its current
[12:18] <stuffandthings> i apt update more that i should, lol
[12:18] <BluesKaj> checked your logs for errors?
[12:18] <Elliria> Hey there. Does anyone know why Konqueror Gestures are enabled in System Settings --> Shortcuts --> Custom Shortcuts since Konqueror isn't installed by default?
[12:19] <stuffandthings> which log would i check, btw, its only dolphin and the desktop, i installed pcmanfm-qt and it works fine when using that
[12:20] <BluesKaj>  /var/log
[12:24] <stuffandthings> which file in /var/log?
[12:26] <stuffandthings> fwiw, only the instance of dolphin that im copying to dies, not any others that are open
[12:27] <BluesKaj> syslog
[12:31] <stuffandthings> wow, i just caused another crash, right after the minute turned over to 8:30 and there is a lot of stuff for that minute there...
[12:32] <stuffandthings> ok found it
[12:33] <stuffandthings> its a decent amount of lines, where should i paste it?
[12:34] <stuffandthings> i wont want to paste a huge dump here
[12:34] <stuffandthings> *dont
[12:34] <stuffandthings> atleast 25 lines
[12:41] <BluesKaj> !paste
[12:45] <stuffandthings> https://dpaste.com/8BYEHPWKQ
[12:45] <stuffandthings> thanks a lot for taking the time to help, by the way
[12:49] <stuffandthings> "Did the X11 server die?"  it says. No, it did not. just the Dolphin window died.
[12:54] <BluesKaj> the transition to wayland on KDE is more complex than gnome so we have to wait a bit longer til KDE is ready for wayland
[12:55] <stuffandthings> wait, was i on wayland? i never thought of checking, one sec...
[12:55] <stuffandthings> ive just been using the default display server
[12:56] <stuffandthings> nope, its x11
[12:56] <stuffandthings> might as well try on wayland and see if that works though
[12:57] <stuffandthings> its no different, crashes all the same
[12:58] <stuffandthings> i dont think this is a display serve bug at all
[13:00] <stuffandthings> *server
[13:01] <BluesKaj> that's beyond my scope ... I'm no expert on these strange errors. I try to help when I caqn but this one is beyond me
[13:02] <stuffandthings> its cool, thanks for taking the time
[13:04] <Elliria> Hey there. Does anyone know why Konqueror Gestures are enabled in System Settings --> Shortcuts --> Custom Shortcuts since Konqueror isn't installed by default in Kubuntu 22.04 LTS?
[13:09] <stuffandthings> Elliria: did you ever have konqueror installed?
[13:09] <Elliria> No.
[13:10] <Elliria> And I was just poking around in settings just now to try to change the sound effect of my caps-lock key and happened to notice those Konqueror gestures and wondered why they're enabled.
[13:10] <stuffandthings> i dont have 22.04 handy at the moment, its not there on 23.10, i wonder if its possible you installed something that depends on a konqueror item perhaps?
[13:10] <Elliria> Maybe, but you'd think I'd have Konqueror installed as a result, wouldn't I?
[13:11] <stuffandthings> not certain, but i figure something could depend on a lib or something like that, without needing to install the whole konqueror
[13:12] <Elliria> Ah, I suppose that's possible.
[13:12] <stuffandthings> either that or you stumbled on a 22.04 bug
[13:13] <stuffandthings> is libkf5konq6 installed?
[14:38] <Elliria> Nope.
[14:38] <Elliria> I also did a search for konq in Muon and none of the packages that show up are installed.
[14:44] <stuffandthings> huh, i wonder if its a bug in 20.04
[15:06] <stuffandthings> im gonna get 20.04 and see if its like that off the bat
[15:13] <stuffandthings> *22.04
[15:14] <stuffandthings> Elliria: is your 22.04 up to date?
[15:14] <Elliria> Yep.
[15:15] <stuffandthings> ok, ill spin it up on a vm and see if its like that on my end.
[15:16] <Elliria> Good idea. I've got a VM, too. I'll look there as well.
[15:17] <Elliria> Yep. It's that way in my VM, too, and I haven't installed any software on that. It's a vanilla Kubuntu 22.04 LTS installation.
[15:17] <Elliria> That's just strange.
[15:18] <stuffandthings> interesting
[15:18] <stuffandthings> im going to still try here
[15:18] <Elliria> Thanks. I appreciate it.
[15:18] <stuffandthings> say, what vm are you using?
[15:18] <Elliria> All I can think is that they put it there in case you install Konqueror.
[15:18] <Elliria> VirtualBox.
[15:19] <stuffandthings> that sounds plausible
[15:19] <stuffandthings> ah ok, im on vmw ws and have been experiencing some bugs
[15:19] <stuffandthings> i was going to ask if you did too, on the off chance you were using vmw
[15:19] <Elliria> But no other software is like that. If you install something, you often have to configure it, so you'd think they'd leave it to us to configure it if we were to install it instead of having that stuff enabled by default.
[15:20] <Elliria> The only VM software I've ever used is VirtualBox, because when I first discovered that software like that existed, it was the only one I could figure out. Heh.
[15:20] <stuffandthings> true, but once appon a time, konqueror was the default file/web prog
[15:21] <stuffandthings> vmw vs is very similar to set up
[15:21] <Elliria> Yeah, but that's been many years ago, hasn't it? Dolphin has been in use for years now.
[15:21] <Elliria> I may have to give that a try some time.
[15:21] <stuffandthings> yeahm dolphin came with kde 4
[15:21] <stuffandthings> between vmw and vb, both have strengths and weaknesses
[15:22] <Elliria> As is probably true of everything. Heh.
[15:22] <stuffandthings> mostly
[15:22] <stuffandthings> the nice thing is that with both, its now possible to get 3d accel on win98
[15:22] <Elliria> My one irritation with VB is that you have to get it directly from them instead of from the Ubuntu repositories.
[15:23] <Elliria> Interesting. I don't have a copy of Win98, but I've got WinXP, WinME, and Windows10. I've never tried to run them in a VM, though.
[15:24] <stuffandthings> xp can do 3d on both but i think vb might not do it on the current version
[15:24] <stuffandthings> for 98, you need a 3rd party driver
[15:24] <stuffandthings> from https://github.com/JHRobotics
[15:24] <Elliria> I mainly use the VM for trying out stuff in Kubuntu 22.04 LTS before using it in my production machine. I'll also use it for trying out things like Debian or Ubuntu, etc.
[15:24] <Elliria> Interesting.
[15:24] <stuffandthings> i use them all the time to try stuff
[15:25] <stuffandthings> snapshots are the best
[15:25] <Elliria> That is a seriously cute avatar. Heh.
[15:25] <Elliria> I ran into some trouble with a snapshot recently and may not use those any more.
[15:25] <stuffandthings> lol yeah
[15:26] <stuffandthings> what happened?
[15:27] <Elliria> When the GRUB boot loader's unique identifier changes, which it has to in order to create a snapshot, because "there can be only one", then GRUB gets upset when it tries to update.
[15:27] <Elliria> I got this error when I did a recent update on the VM: "Error while installing package: installed grub-efi-amd64-signed package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 32"
[15:28] <Elliria> According to someone on the internet, you can ignore the error message, because the update really is being installed and you can verify that by using the dpkg -l | less command. He was right that it seems like it's true when it's examined in that way, but it isn't actually properly installed, so you really can't ignore the message.
[15:28] <stuffandthings> hmm
[15:28] <stuffandthings> i think that might be avoidable with vmw
[15:28] <Elliria> My VM's GRUB is currently messed up and I'm waiting for some help with it from a friend, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.
[15:29] <Elliria> It is, but I didn't avoid it and avoiding it seems like more work than it's worth. Here, I'll paste the document I created about it into a pastebin.
[15:29] <stuffandthings> its been a while, so i forget exactly if vbox had this, but in vmw if you snapshot and make some kind of move or copy, it asks you if you moved or copied it, it should take care of things like that
[15:30] <Elliria> You'll likely encounter it if you use snapshots and get GRUB updates.
[15:30] <Elliria> https://bpa.st/6MKA
[15:31] <Elliria> I think the only thing I get asked when I make a snapshot is if I want to use the existing drive or have it create a new one and I always opt for the new one because shared devices can get you in trouble if you forget that that's what you're doing.
[15:31] <stuffandthings> before it dive in, i just launched 20.04 and realised that im dense...
[15:32] <stuffandthings> the konqueror shortcuts are in custom shortcuts right?
[15:32] <Elliria> That paste has some links I found useful that had some advice for what causes the issue and what can be done to deal with it and/or prevent it.
[15:32] <Elliria> Yep.
[15:32] <stuffandthings> heh, theyre there on my main system (23.04) too.
[15:32] <Elliria> System Settings --> Shortcuts --> Custom Shortcuts
[15:32] <Elliria> Isn't that strange?
[15:33] <Elliria> Are they enabled on your 23.04 system?
[15:33] <Elliria> They're enabled on mine.
[15:33] <Elliria> And in the VM.
[15:33] <stuffandthings> yep, enabled
[15:33] <Elliria> I'm tempted to disable them to see what will happen, but the sky might fall. Heh.
[15:33] <stuffandthings> creating a new drive might be why
[15:34] <stuffandthings> i do snapshots on my main system too, (via timeshift) so ill mess with it and try
[15:35] <Elliria> You'll only get that error if you happen to get a GRUB update. I suppose you could cause one by grabbing an old ISO and snapshotting it before updating it.
[15:36] <Elliria> But you should be able to make a completely-independent snapshot without issue, so this is probably going to end up being a bug that needs to be reported.
[15:36] <stuffandthings> to quote homestarrunner, "everything is fine, nothing is ruined"
[15:36] <Elliria> Heh.
[15:36] <stuffandthings> with regards to disabling the konq shortcuts, that is
[15:37] <stuffandthings> didnt change anything, dolphin still works, so its not used for that
[15:38] <Elliria> Interesting.
[15:40] <Elliria> The sky may still fall later, though. I tried to use the first one (Back) that says: "Press, move left, release." Nothing happened when I tried to do that in Dolphin.
[15:41] <stuffandthings> that never did work on dolphin though, did it?
[15:42] <stuffandthings> the action is alt+left and that still worked the same
[15:42] <Elliria> No idea. I just saw it today and figured I'd try it to see if perhaps they had it enabled because Dolphin uses it, but it obviously doesn't.
[15:42] <Elliria> Oh, that one is cool. I didn't know about it.
[15:42] <Elliria> Kubuntu is ASTOUNDING in all the little things it can do to make your llife better.
[15:43] <stuffandthings> kde is so great
[15:43] <stuffandthings> yeah
[15:43] <Elliria> I have no idea why Ubuntu is so popular when it can't do most of what Kubuntu can.
[15:43] <stuffandthings> and then there are the addons
[15:43] <Elliria> You can use it for years and still discover new stuff in it.
[15:43] <stuffandthings> right?
[15:44] <stuffandthings> yep
[15:44] <stuffandthings> ive been using it since 2.something and it always seems head and shoulders above the other DEs
[15:44] <Elliria> Yeah, and the Desktop Effects, OMG, the Desktop Effects...
[15:44] <stuffandthings> though i like lxqt on super lite systems
[15:45] <stuffandthings> yep
[15:45] <stuffandthings> btw i just saw, like 10 min ago, that the cube is coming back
[15:45] <Elliria> I've used it since KDE 3 and loved it and then I abandoned it when KDE 4 came out. I switched to Ubuntu MATE as the closest possible replacement, but was never happy, so I came back with Kubuntu 22.04 LTS.
[15:46] <stuffandthings> https://pointieststick.com/2023/10/27/these-past-2-weeks-in-kde-wayland-color-management-the-desktop-cube-returns-and-optional-shadows-in-spectacle/
[15:46] <Elliria> Oh. I thought it was still here. I don't use it, but it's very cool.
[15:46] <stuffandthings> it was in 4
[15:46] <stuffandthings> 4.0 was very... lacking
[15:46] <Elliria> Wayland? Is Kubuntu 23.04 using Wayland?
[15:46] <stuffandthings> but by 4.7 or so it was getting good again
[15:46] <stuffandthings> not by default
[15:47] <stuffandthings> 23.10 isnt yet either
[15:47] <Elliria> It was slow and laggy for me, so I ran away. Then MATE started a new thing where they refuse to allow users to customize their own desktop themes and only give them a few hideous ones to choose from, so I ran away scrreaming.
[15:47] <stuffandthings> its available on the login screen but its still defaulted to x11
[15:47] <Elliria> Does it actually work?
[15:47] <stuffandthings> it does, there a few minor bugs here and there but its getting close
[15:48] <Elliria> So far, I've heard that there are lots of issues that people are having with Wayland, so I'm waiting.
[15:48] <stuffandthings> gnome is completely going themless
[15:48] <stuffandthings> *themeless
[15:48] <stuffandthings> mate did too?
[15:48] <stuffandthings> what a bummer, by the name gnome2 became mate, it was pretty decent
[15:49] <stuffandthings> *by the time
[15:49] <Elliria> Yeah, it's horrible. I've got a bookmark of a page where the developers talk about it and it's all about them and not us. It makes it easier for them to not allow us to decide how things look. This is not my planet.
[15:50] <stuffandthings> i miss a bit of skeuomorphism
[15:50] <stuffandthings> everything is too flat now
[15:50] <Elliria> Oh, yeah. With MATE, you have a choice of like 5 default themes. The end. There is no customization. If you happen to be incredible at the configuration files that create the themes and can figure out all the CSS classes that you need to know to make the magic happen, then you might be able to DIY, but it's so much work to figure out which classes control what that it's not worth the bother.
[15:50] <Elliria> Same here. I hate the flat icons. It's hideous.
[15:50] <stuffandthings> everything flat makes it take longer to spot things like buttons and scrollbars
[15:50] <Elliria> I get that they're trying to create a universally-understood set of icons that anyone anywhere in the world would recognize, but I need prettiness.
[15:51] <stuffandthings> drives me nuts
[15:51] <stuffandthings> you know what was always crazy about the theming in kde?
[15:52] <stuffandthings> its not just simple replacement of graphics, the themes do things
[15:52] <stuffandthings> like the beos theme, you can actually do the tab thing like beos
[15:53] <stuffandthings> it sucks that that theme got deleted, it was getting glitchy since kde4 because no one maintained it to work with newer kde versions
[15:53] <Elliria> Like, for instance, this is a small part of my current desktop that shows part of our chat here and my panel with its icons. Beware, I like magenta, so this will be quite overpoweringly PINK: https://imgur.com/a/HZ0C1IO
[15:54] <stuffandthings> very constrasty
[15:54] <Elliria> I had to download and manually use an icon set for the tray because all the default tray icons are flat.
[15:54] <Elliria> Horrible.
[15:54] <Elliria> I haven't tried the tab thing. Is that sort of like those snap-to-grid desktops?
[15:54] <stuffandthings> the problem with kde5 is that that theming for the taskbar is stored in plasma themes, which dont follow the icon theme
[15:54] <stuffandthings> on 6 they changed it for the better
[15:55] <stuffandthings> not exactly, if you google beos, youll see that the titlebar on a window is smaller than the window itself
[15:55] <Elliria> Oh, good. Anything they can do to make it easier at our end is always welcome. I had to wrestle with this one.
[15:55] <stuffandthings> if you maximized multiple windows, the tabs would go beside eachother
[15:56] <stuffandthings> or even if you just overlapped windows a bit
[15:57] <stuffandthings> i read nates blog about the changes they make to kde a lot, really feels like they are not working against the average user, most of the time
[15:57] <stuffandthings> much, much better than the gnome decs
[15:57] <Elliria> Interesting. I kind of like the look of the tabs, but where are all the window menus?
[15:57] <stuffandthings> *devs
[15:57] <stuffandthings> beos didnt have many menus but on kde the menus were still there as normal
[15:57] <Elliria> Oh, I'm not surprised. It would be hard to convince me that the devs code for us. I'm certain they code for themselves first and if we happen to like what they do, great. Heh.
[15:58] <Elliria> Well, I mean like File --> Save or Edit --> Preferences, etc.
[15:58] <stuffandthings> yeah, on kde theyre still there, but i remember beos having not many menus, i forget exactly how it was
[15:58] <stuffandthings> last time i used beos, had to be around 22 years ago
[15:58] <Elliria> A friend got me to try a desktop that only gives you access to menus by right-clicking the desktop. That drove me nuts, but some people love it.
[15:59] <Elliria> Beos might be fun to mess around with in a VM.
[15:59] <Elliria> I might even lasso my friend in on it since he likes trying stuff, too.
[15:59] <stuffandthings> its interesting its so different
[15:59] <stuffandthings> yeah, i dont like just rightclick on desktop
[15:59] <stuffandthings> for menu
[16:00] <Elliria> Yeah. I often have programs fully open, so it would be two clicks to get to the desktop and then do the right-click.
[16:00] <Elliria> I'm fond of the little K in the bottom left corner.
[16:01] <stuffandthings> even that is customizable, its so nice
[16:01] <Elliria> That's another thing Kubuntu got right. They offer you tiled desktops, etc., in case you don't like the default.
[16:01] <Elliria> I know, right?
[16:01] <stuffandthings> ive got a number of desktop tile addons that make it even better
[16:01] <stuffandthings> kde4 had one awesome feature thats missing
[16:01] <Elliria> I still need to figure out how to replace my trash icons on this. I currently have the ugly flat ones for that.
[16:01] <stuffandthings> you could tab any set of windows from any app
[16:01] <Elliria> What's that?
[16:02] <Elliria> Are you sure you can't in KDE 5?
[16:02] <stuffandthings> like how browser tabs work, but for every app
[16:02] <stuffandthings> pretty sure, like 95%
[16:02] <Elliria> Interesting.
[16:02] <stuffandthings> i hope im wrong
[16:02] <Elliria> Did it have a name so we can look it up?
[16:03] <Elliria> Nope. It's gone: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/ph4het/tabbed_windows_in_plasma_5/
[16:03] <stuffandthings> i think they just called it windows tabbing
[16:03] <stuffandthings> came in kde4.4
[16:03] <stuffandthings> that and the cube are the only missing kde4 features i can think of
[16:04] <Elliria> I just worry that they'll get rid of the two desktop effects I can't live without. Heh.
[16:04] <stuffandthings> some grouping stuff with the taskbar too
[16:04] <stuffandthings> which ones?
[16:04] <stuffandthings> im pretty sure 6 isnt cutting any of those out
[16:04] <Elliria> I believe they're called Shatter and Magic Lamp. I've got to look.
[16:05] <stuffandthings> magic lamp, one of the only things that i like from apple :P
[16:05] <Elliria> If you've never used Shatter, buckle your seatbelt. You'll LOVE it!
[16:05] <stuffandthings> i have
[16:05] <Elliria> I need it. It's a sanity thing. Heh.
[16:05] <stuffandthings> have you heard of the burn-my-windows addons?
[16:05] <Elliria> No, but it sounds awesome already.
[16:05] <stuffandthings> https://store.kde.org/find?search=burn%20my%20windows
[16:06] <Elliria> NVIDIA drivers broke Shatter and Magic Lamp for many months on this computer, although they worked fine on my little laptop that didn't have an NVIDIA card. I was so sad. I have a relative who works at NVIDIA, so I filed a personal complaint. Heh. Not long afterwards, the devs fixed it. YAY!
[16:06] <stuffandthings> luuucky you
[16:06] <Elliria> OMG, so cool!
[16:06] <stuffandthings> lol
[16:07] <stuffandthings> ive got so many addons on here
[16:07] <Elliria> Oh, my, the Energize one!
[16:07] <stuffandthings> and i archive everything i get so i can use it in the future, if im net-less or something
[16:07] <Elliria> It would be absolutely awesome if it also made the Energize sound effect.
[16:07] <stuffandthings> yeah, energize looks nice
[16:08] <Elliria> Yes, same! And take screenshots or make text files or whatever with the names of the goodies.
[16:08] <stuffandthings> you could add the sound effect in the sound settings, i think
[16:08] <stuffandthings> like the sounds for minimize, maximize etc
[16:08] <stuffandthings> though kde5 cut back on those a bit, maybe
[16:08] <Elliria> I am so bookmarking that page. Thanks so much!
[16:08] <stuffandthings> im a data hoarder -_-
[16:09] <stuffandthings> no prob
[16:09] <Elliria> Same. Heh,
[16:09] <stuffandthings> ive lately bin on a old windows kick, trying to fill in all the versions ive been missing
[16:10] <Elliria> I think I'll leave Shatter on here and get Energize for my laptop.
[16:10] <Elliria> Do you have Windows 3.1?
[16:10] <Elliria> I remember that one, but don't think we still have a copy around here.
[16:10] <stuffandthings> ah, for 3.1, i not only have, i still have the original 5.25in disks too :P
[16:10] <Elliria> Although I've got a copy of DOS, though.
[16:10] <stuffandthings> my first pc, dos5+win3.1
[16:11] <stuffandthings> the disks, my 5.25% drive and my serial mouse are all thats left of that one
[16:11] <stuffandthings> *in drive
[16:11] <Elliria> I don't know which DOS we had, but my first computer was a KAYPRO4 (we called her the KAYPRO4-us-rex) that had two 5 1/4 inch disks - one to hold the OS and the other to hold your data. Very cool.
[16:12] <stuffandthings> oh man, that sounds like an ibm at almost
[16:12] <stuffandthings> no mouse?
[16:12] <stuffandthings> if no mouse, im guessing dos3
[16:13] <Elliria> No mouse.
[16:13] <Elliria> http://dunfield.classiccmp.org//kaypro/kaypro4a.jpg
[16:13] <stuffandthings> likely dos3 than
[16:13] <Elliria> It was very cool, though. It was portable and it even came with a modem in it.
[16:13] <stuffandthings> oh wow, maybe 1 or 2 for that
[16:14] <stuffandthings> i knew a guy who had something like that when i had my 386
[16:14] <Elliria> That keyboard clamps onto the front of it to protect the monitor and disk slots while traveling.
[16:14] <Elliria> It's HEAVY.
[16:14] <stuffandthings> maybe that was 8088 cpu or something
[16:14] <Elliria> It was so cool. And that's a serious clicker-keyboard, so I've always preferred those.
[16:14] <stuffandthings> oh a z80 cpu
[16:14] <stuffandthings> wow
[16:14] <Elliria> No idea. I no longer have it.
[16:15] <stuffandthings> my freind with the ibm at had a kb like that, those kb are now worth a dollar!
[16:15] <Elliria> It was a gift from a family member to tide me over while I was getting my first IBM computer.
[16:15] <stuffandthings> erm, i mean many dollars
[16:17] <stuffandthings> i wonder if that is emulated
[16:17] <Elliria> Yeah. I love the old IBM keyboards, but they no longer make them. Unicomp bought the IBM machines and makes keyboards from them, but made some changes to them. Apparently, my typing style is violent enough that I can destroy one of their keyboards in less than a year and at over $100 each, I decided they aren't worth it. My current keyboard, that handles my abuse really well, is a Razer Blackwidow.
[16:17] <stuffandthings> hear good things about that kb
[16:17] <stuffandthings> the razer
[16:18] <Elliria> I highly recommend it if you're a powerful typist who destroys keyboards. These last me for years.
[16:19] <stuffandthings> my currently dead desktop is some generic membrane kb, otherwise im on a laptop
[16:19] <Elliria> Hopefully you can resurrect the desktop.
[16:20] <stuffandthings> i need a new motherboard
[16:20] <stuffandthings> thats seems to be what died
[16:20] <stuffandthings> kinda ruled out the rest
[16:20] <stuffandthings> my 20tb stash is still on there but ive nowhere to put those drives right now
[16:23] <stuffandthings> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzosnPSETzk
[16:23] <stuffandthings> that point in the video talks about how the tabs work
[16:24] <Elliria> Ah, often when we need a new motherboard, it's not worth it, and you'd be better off doing a complete rebuild.
[16:24] <Elliria> I'll take those 20TB off your hands. Heh. OMG...
[16:25] <stuffandthings> it died like 3year ago, if it didnt, i would have had atleast 30 by now
[16:25] <stuffandthings> i wanted to keep it long term, its an ivybridge system
[16:25] <stuffandthings> so just about the fastest winxp machine
[16:25] <Elliria> Aw, I'm sorry.
[16:26] <Elliria> Still, it would be good to either replace that one part or rebuild it.
[16:26] <stuffandthings> around that time i also got p3 parts to build a win9x system
[16:26] <Elliria> Checking out your video.
[16:28] <Elliria> Gosh, this brings back so many memories. Back in those days, everything was changing so FAST and they were really dramatic differences. Nowadays, the changes seem to drag on and be quite small.
[16:28] <stuffandthings> yeah
[16:28] <stuffandthings> for sure
[16:28] <stuffandthings> a ten year old system still works out fine
[16:28] <stuffandthings> unless you want to play a new aaa game or something
[16:29] <stuffandthings> back then, a 1995 computer felt old compared to a 1997 one
[16:30] <Elliria> Ah, I see. The menu is beneath the tab.
[16:31] <stuffandthings> yeah, so it is
[16:31] <Elliria> Yes! Exactly! Nowadays it's not like that.
[16:31] <stuffandthings> couldnt remember for sure
[16:31] <stuffandthings> i also cant remember if beos did this, but older kde versions with the beos theme, would auto move the tabs when you over lap them
[16:32] <stuffandthings> if you combine all that with a maximize button and a menu on the top right corner, it just kind fits together really well
[16:33] <Elliria> Heh. I like how the guy is playing all those sound files at once.
[16:33] <stuffandthings> given that the tabs occupy the left and the "deskbar" occupies the right
[16:33] <stuffandthings> lol yeah
[16:34] <Elliria> Ah, you mean like combining various applications into one if you put the tabs near each other the way you can combine two instances of Firefox by dragging one tab onto the other?
[16:34] <stuffandthings> kinda
[16:35] <stuffandthings> but the windows are still separate
[16:35] <stuffandthings> if you move a window to where the tabs over lap, the tab just autoslides to the side on one of them
[16:36] <stuffandthings> so if you maximize 2 windows, you have size by side tabs plus the "deskbar" all on one row
[16:36] <Elliria> So although they're separate windows, they look like they're part of the same application, right?
[16:36] <Elliria> That could be interesting.
[16:36] <stuffandthings> but if they arent maximized, they take up less space than a taskbar, since there isnt one
[16:37] <Elliria> True.
[16:37] <stuffandthings> kinda, the kde4 tabs made it like it was one app
[16:37] <stuffandthings> the kde3.x beos theme did it like beaos
[16:37] <stuffandthings> *beos
[16:39] <Elliria> It's a shame they don't still offer it. One of the people on that Reddit page mentioned a very good point. LibreOffice doesn't offer good tab management, so having the option to forcibly tab it would be wonderful. It's so annoying to have to take a jaunt through the menu system to get at other windows when you have more than one document open.
[16:39] <stuffandthings> all this talk got me to start downing beos again
[16:39] <Elliria> Heh.
[16:40] <stuffandthings> you could still do it if you run compiz ontop of kde
[16:40] <stuffandthings> compiz has tabbing like that
[16:41] <Elliria> I might have to try that. Could I just use it for that or would it also change other things on my desktop?
[16:41] <stuffandthings> also there something on windows that does it too but i forge the name
[16:41] <stuffandthings> compiz is a window manager so it would have to be run in place of kwin
[16:42] <stuffandthings> so all your windows would be either kwin or compiz
[16:42] <stuffandthings> nowadays, compiz plays best with mate or unity
[16:43] <stuffandthings> it was decent under kde3, so running trinity might be an option
[16:43] <Elliria> I think everything that I use on Windows has tabs already, but it's been a while. I use it for work and have been out of work for a while, so my work machine is collecting dust at the moment.
[16:43] <stuffandthings> trinity is a fork of kde3
[16:43] <stuffandthings> i gave up on windows after 8
[16:43] <Elliria> Yeah, but Trinity isn't offered by Ubuntu as one of its flavors, so I decided not to go for that.
[16:44] <Elliria> I have to use the latest and greatest Windows on the work machine because that's what companies want you to have [sigh]. It's just a money-sink, in my opinion.
[16:44] <stuffandthings> theres a fork of kde4 also
[16:44] <stuffandthings> yeah, i hear that
[16:45] <stuffandthings> nice, trinity was still update, current ver from last sunday
[16:45] <stuffandthings> *updated
[16:46] <Elliria> Interesting. My next exploration in VirtualBox will be OMV.
[16:46] <stuffandthings> (my grammar might be fading due to sleep deprivation :P )
[16:46] <Elliria> Oh, I'm sorry! I don't mean to keep you awake! Go get your rest!
[16:47] <stuffandthings> aw yeah, there is a ppa for it
[16:47] <stuffandthings> its ok, im just gonna skip out on sleep today
[16:47] <Elliria> That's never a good idea!
[16:48] <Elliria> Although if it makes you feel any better, I only got 4 hours of sleep last night, so I feel your pain.
[16:48] <stuffandthings> i get mega bouts of insomnia sometimes, i just roll with it
[16:49] <stuffandthings> for months at a time its pretty normal sleep, then for months at a time, i could juts lay awake for 5h
[16:49] <Elliria> Same here lately, but hopefully it will be temporary.
[16:49] <stuffandthings> at some point that got really boring
[16:49] <Elliria> Yeah, I can't handle that. If I'm awake and thinking, I get out of bed. May as well do the day. Heh.
[16:49] <stuffandthings> yep
[16:50] <Elliria> Dolly Parton gets up earlier than most people and she says that as a result, she has always gotten a lot done.
[16:51] <stuffandthings> yep
[16:56] <stuffandthings> i might spin up an ubuntu build with trinity
[16:56] <Elliria> Interesting, although they don't come together, so you'd have to cobble it.
[16:57] <stuffandthings> i miss the ubuntu minimal isos they used to put out
[16:58] <stuffandthings> though i should be able to run the last one through cubic and make updated ones
[16:58] <Elliria> They've got them again in the development version.
[17:01] <Elliria> http://www.cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mini-iso/daily-live/current/
[17:01] <stuffandthings> baller!
[17:02] <Elliria> Heh.
[17:02] <stuffandthings> guess ill finally update my server if this one makes it to the release
[17:02] <Elliria> It's got high RAM requirements, though. High enough that someone in one of the Ubuntu mailing lists wasn't happy with it.
[17:02] <stuffandthings> thank you for bringing this to light!
[17:03] <stuffandthings> i wonder why
[17:03] <Elliria> Any time. It just got discussed at length in one of the mailing lists. Let me see if I can find the thread.
[17:05] <Elliria> It starts here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2023-November/311430.html
[17:05] <stuffandthings> cool, thanks
[17:05] <Elliria> If you keep clicking the next messages, you'll get to the part where they talk about the requirements.
[17:06] <Elliria> I think he's trying to do the installation on a pretty low-end machine.
[17:07] <stuffandthings> ah, i see
[17:08] <stuffandthings> i forget where the repos are for no longer supported versions
[17:08] <stuffandthings> i used to know
[17:09] <Elliria> Maybe herre? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
[17:10] <Elliria> I'm not sure if you can grab them from there, though.
[17:10] <Elliria> Nope.
[17:11] <Elliria> Aha! https://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/
[17:14] <stuffandthings> for the isos, but there was a way to modify the apt repo addresses so you could still pull stuff off of unsuported versions with apt
[17:15] <Elliria> I think you have to change sources.list to accomplish that, don't you?
[17:16] <stuffandthings> yep, just found out to what
[17:16] <stuffandthings> deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ CODENAME main restricted universe multiverse
[17:17] <stuffandthings> and CODENAME-updates main and such
[17:17] <Elliria> Interesting. Does that downgrade your system or just add the repo?
[17:19] <stuffandthings> i had to do it for someone once, to get them to be able to get deps for an unsupported version
[17:19] <stuffandthings> it just basically makes apt work again the same as if it were supported
[17:19] <stuffandthings> up to the last packages that were available for that version
[17:20] <stuffandthings> got disconnected there
[17:20] <stuffandthings> what is the last thing i sent, that went through?
[17:22] <Elliria> "and CODENAME-updates main and such"
[17:22] <Elliria> So, I think you're good, because you answered my question. Heh.
[17:28] <stuffandthings> oh, that was a bit back
[17:28] <stuffandthings> [13:17:58] <stuffandthings> i had to do it for someone once, to get them to be able to get deps for an unsupported version
[17:28] <stuffandthings> [13:18:14] <stuffandthings> it just basically makes apt work again the same as if it were supported
[17:28] <stuffandthings> [13:18:29] <stuffandthings> up to the last packages that were available for that version
[17:28] <stuffandthings> [13:19:23] <stuffandthings> i with at eol, ubuntu would release isos that were patched up to the final versions for that version
[17:28] <stuffandthings> [13:19:36] <stuffandthings> *wish
[17:29] <Elliria> You immediately answered it, though. Yep, I've seen those, too.
[17:29] <Elliria> I'm bouncing back and forth between this window and another one, so your vanishing act was seamless. Heh.
[17:29] <stuffandthings> heh nice
[17:30] <stuffandthings> im tempted to get an hdd to save repos for old versions
[17:31] <stuffandthings> thats one thing that i dont like about rolling release stuff, (not that ubuntu is rolling)
[17:31] <stuffandthings> but they share this problem, though ubuntu to a much lesser extent
[17:32] <stuffandthings> with an old os like windows </=7, you could have the install disc and the installer for a prog and you were good, if the netpocalypse happened
[17:33] <stuffandthings> now windows has multiple versions for 10/11 etc and something like ubuntu, well you go and install a deb you save, and it has so many other debs to get from the repo
[17:36] <Elliria> Yeah, and I think alll the installers (not just Windows) suffer from the after-the-fact updates that you need, so if you wanted to archive them, you'd want to grab it all and then make an archive.
[17:36] <stuffandthings> its kind of a nightmare for preservation
[17:40] <Elliria> Yeah. We've definitely gone downhill on that over the years. It was nicer to have things on diskett or CD or DVD back in the day.
[17:47] <stuffandthings> indeed
[17:48] <stuffandthings> but even if its over the net, i wonder if there is some better way to package it
[17:48] <stuffandthings> appimage gives me some hope
[17:48] <stuffandthings> flatpak feels like a bust to me, because most people just give you a flatpak link which triggers an install
[17:49] <Elliria> I think you can disassemble an ISO, add files to it, and reassemble it.
[17:49] <stuffandthings> if there is a way to save a .flatpak file from a flatpak ref, i dont know how
[17:49] <Elliria> Apparently this still works: https://askubuntu.com/questions/48535/how-to-customize-the-ubuntu-live-cd/49679#49679
[17:49] <stuffandthings> oh you can and cubic really helps with doing that
[17:50] <stuffandthings> though that still seems a trifle more impractical that just saving an iso and an exe from somewhere
[17:51] <Elliria> Thanks for reminding me about preservation. The only copy I have of the installation ISO is on my computer. I really ought to get another USB stick and pop it onto there.
[17:52] <stuffandthings> yeah, definitely a good idea
[18:03] <stuffandthings> oh yeah, do you know about ventoy?
[18:05] <Elliria> Yep. It sounds good.
[18:06] <Elliria> Apparently you grab it, put it onto a USB stick, copy ISO files onto the USB stick with it, then boot with it and pick an ISO and press Enter. Boom!
[18:06] <stuffandthings> its awesome
[18:06] <stuffandthings> you dont need to use it to actually copy the isos after the fact
[18:06] <Elliria> I haven't tried it, but should use that on the USB stick when it comes.
[18:06] <stuffandthings> you just copy the isos via drag and drop like normally storing them on a usb
[18:07] <stuffandthings> yep
[18:08] <Elliria> Very cool.
[18:09] <stuffandthings> and upgrading it doesnt require recopying the isos
[18:09] <Elliria> How do you upgrade it?
[18:12] <stuffandthings> so theres a basic gui, (even on the linux one!) that has a few simple options to format the usb, it makes a boot partition and a storage partition.
[18:12] <stuffandthings> the storage one remains hidden on most things
[18:13] <stuffandthings> so you just copy isos to the storage one
[18:13] <Elliria> Cool. I found this for upgrading it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNwAOvZS3js
[18:13] <stuffandthings> when theres a new ventoy, you run the gui again, hit upgrade, it modifies the boot partition and its done
[18:14] <stuffandthings> yeah, thats pretty much it
[18:14] <stuffandthings> that same little gui is on linux too, no different
[18:15] <stuffandthings> you dont have to install anything to run it
[18:15] <stuffandthings> just dl the linux  one, unzip it and run the executable
[18:16] <Elliria> I added it to the notes in my personal wiki where I had the Ventoy stuff. Thanks!
[18:16] <stuffandthings> no prob
[18:17] <Elliria> Would that work on an SSD just as well as it would on a USB stick? I like to buy external drives to back up my computer and it occurs to me that those are much bigger, so maybe that would be a better place to keep ISOs.
[18:18] <stuffandthings> pretty sure it works on an ssd/hdd too
[18:18] <stuffandthings> ill try on a vm
[18:19] <Elliria> Their FAQ says you can. Yay! when theres a new ventoy, you run the gui again, hit upgrade, it modifies the boot partition and its done
[18:19] <stuffandthings> yep
[18:19] <stuffandthings> that about it
[18:19] <Elliria> Oops. Heh, that's your words. Hang on. Yes !    You can install Ventoy to USB drive, Removable HD, SD Card, SATA HDD, SSD, NVMe ...
[18:19] <Elliria> Strange that it didn't copy.
[18:20] <stuffandthings> lol
[18:20] <stuffandthings> you can boot vhd files oto
[18:20] <stuffandthings> *too
[18:20] <stuffandthings> though that takes a bit more work
[18:20] <Elliria> Added that to my notes, too. Heh.
[18:21] <Elliria> What are vhd files?
[18:21] <stuffandthings> more or less microsofts virtual hard drive image
[18:21] <Elliria> Interesting. I had never heard of those.
[18:21] <stuffandthings> like when you make a vm on vbox, in the vm dir, theres a virtual hard disk image
[18:22] <stuffandthings> vhd is what microsoft virtual pc makes
[18:22] <Elliria> Although nowadays everyone is offering ISO files.
[18:22] <stuffandthings> but vhds are not read only
[18:22] <stuffandthings> i think vbox can make them too
[18:22] <Elliria> Interesting. So you can edit them?
[18:22] <stuffandthings> yeah, so if you had a win7 vhd, you could boot it and make changes that last
[18:23] <Elliria> Yep, it looks like it can.
[18:23] <Elliria> My VMs are .vdi format.
[18:23] <stuffandthings> im pretty sure you could wip up a vbox vm right now and select vhd as the hdd format
[18:25] <stuffandthings> yep, you can
[18:25] <stuffandthings> so if you make a vbox vm, make the hdd in vhd mode, install windows on it, that vhd should be bootable
[18:26] <stuffandthings> as long as you clean the drivers
[18:26] <stuffandthings> because back in the day, atleast with xp, if you took an hdd out and put it in another computer, it would crash on boot
[18:26] <stuffandthings> unless its the same chipset
[18:27] <stuffandthings> you had to take all the drivers off
[18:27] <Elliria> It offers to make a Virtual Hard Disk and I always accept that, but it creates those .vdi files.
[18:28] <stuffandthings> theres a button like "expert mode" or something at the bottom
[18:28] <Elliria> Ah, that would probably be it. I'm far from expert. Heh.
[18:28] <Elliria> I just bumble along in VirtualBox.
[18:29] <stuffandthings> what vbox version are you on?
[18:29] <Elliria> 7.0
[18:29] <stuffandthings> ok, one sec, ill install that on a vm
[18:30] <stuffandthings> its been a while since i 'vm-cepted'
[18:32] <stuffandthings> i once took a w7 vm, saved state, put that saved state setup in a vm, repeat, then every time i launched the vm, there was another waiting and ready inside of it
[18:32] <Elliria> Yep. In expert mode, you can do it.
[18:33] <stuffandthings> keep an eye out for that button, its in some other places in vbox
[18:37] <Elliria> It's at the beginning when you create a new VM. It offers VDI, VHD, VMDK, HDD, QCOW, and QED in the hardware section.
[18:37] <stuffandthings> qcow, why does that ring a bell
[18:38] <stuffandthings> qemu v-disk
[18:38] <Elliria> It says" (QEMU Copy-On-Write)" next to that.
[18:38] <Elliria> Yep.
[18:38] <stuffandthings> unless i was thinking of unicows
[18:39] <Elliria> And QED says "(Qemu enhanced disk)" next to it.
[18:39] <stuffandthings> oh yeah, i just had to get unicows the other day
[18:39] <stuffandthings> ms also has an enhanced version of theirs vhdx, xvhd, or something
[18:40] <stuffandthings> i forget, but i assume its for hyper-v
[18:40] <Elliria> Which will surely be added to the list at some point.
[18:41] <stuffandthings> maybem ms made the spec available
[18:41] <stuffandthings> *maybe
[18:41] <stuffandthings> "VHDX was added in Hyper-V in Windows Server 2012 to add larger storage capacity, data corruption protection, and optimizations to prevent performance degradation on large-sector physical disks"
[18:42] <Elliria> That sounds like a niche use-case, so maybe they won't add it.
[18:45] <Elliria> Well, it's been a blast chatting with you, but I've got to go. The piper needs to be paid after all. Maybe we'll bump into each other again some time.
[18:45]  * Elliria hugs stuffandthings
[18:46] <stuffandthings> great talking, ill pop up on here again soon
[18:46] <Elliria> Okay. I will, too. See you then!