[09:24] <sakrecoer> oh no! get well soon Eickmeyer !
[09:27] <sakrecoer> i'm curious about the rationale behind defaulting to pipewire, does it mean ubuntustudio is now less popular among audio producers?
[09:28] <sakrecoer> the config tools states that pipewire is good for most users, but jack+pulse is good professional/prosumer users.
[09:28] <sakrecoer> or... put differently, does it mean ubuntustudio is more popular among all the other crafts than it is with audio producers.
[09:30] <gordonjcp> well, pipewire is getting better and better
[10:47] <sakrecoer> but apparently not good enough yet for professional/prosumer use...
[10:53] <gordonjcp> why do you think that?
[11:03] <sakrecoer> because the audio config tool says so, beacuse my experience says so, and because the pipewire devs say so
[11:05] <sakrecoer> https://ubuntustudio.org/switching-audio-setup/
[11:06] <sakrecoer> in my use case, pipewire shows good improvement in that sound is ok. But latency is very far from acceptable.
[11:07] <gordonjcp> latency is overrated
[11:07] <gordonjcp> what sort of latency figures are you getting?
[11:07] <sakrecoer> overrated? not even a podcaster could work with this latency
[11:08] <gordonjcp> well, how much latency are you talking about?
[11:08] <sakrecoer> i can't give you a number, i don't need a number. it's enough to make unusable for realtime audio recording
[11:10] <sakrecoer> but it's fine with jack, i'm not complaining. i'm just curious why it is the default.
[11:43]  * Eickmeyer is up early for no reason
[11:44] <Eickmeyer> sakrecoer: I just did a demonstration in Riga that proved that Pipewire is ready for professional use. As the person who wrote the audio config, I just need to change some strings. Feel free to use Pipewire and be comfortable.
[12:48] <sakrecoer> except, i can't use pipewire, Eickmeyer. Am used to latency but this is more like a delay pedal.
[12:48] <Eickmeyer> sakrecoer: Why can't you use pipewire?
[12:48] <sakrecoer> because the latency is too high
[12:49] <sakrecoer> i'm at 64 96000 and it's like half second delay
[12:49] <Eickmeyer> I'll have a fix for that soon. You'll be able to lower the latency. I had an issue where it used to be (in the older version) a simple variable change, now it's a big command change.
[12:49] <sakrecoer> cool!
[12:49] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, changing it in the config won't work right now.
[12:50] <sakrecoer> i changed it with a pipewire command...
[12:50] <Eickmeyer> pipewire-metadata by any chance?
[12:50] <sakrecoer> let me check the logs...
[12:50] <sakrecoer> pw-metadata 
[12:51] <sakrecoer> i assume it's the same
[12:51] <Eickmeyer> Yep, that's what I needed it to do. So, yes, the same.
[12:51] <sakrecoer> not sure i understand "that's what i needed it to do"
[12:51] <Eickmeyer> You *might* just need a newer version of pipewire. The jack bridge is supposed to be zero latency. You might also try installing pipewire-alsa.
[12:52] <Eickmeyer> "that's what i needed it to do" = the config interface
[12:52] <Eickmeyer> I wrote that thing.
[12:52] <sakrecoer> oh, well it didn't help me.. it got better but far from good enough.
[12:53] <Eickmeyer> You're missing my point though. I had next to no latency when I did my demo in Riga.
[12:53] <sakrecoer> what's your point?
[12:54] <Eickmeyer> My point is something is up with your system if it is having trouble. You might need a newer version of Pipewire, the one in 23.10 isn't the RC for 1.0
[12:54] <sakrecoer> wait...
[12:55] <sakrecoer> that sounds almost like "it works on my machine, so your machine is broken"
[12:55] <Eickmeyer> It works on 3 of my machines.
[12:55] <Eickmeyer> And Robin Gareus's machines.
[12:55] <sakrecoer> well... it works on none of mine
[12:56] <sakrecoer> one with firewire, i suppose that is "expected".. the other with a USB audio card
[12:56] <Eickmeyer> Try installing pipewire-alsa, reboot, and see if that helps.
[12:57] <sakrecoer> i'll try that
[12:58] <sakrecoer> might work with the usb device, but i doubt it will work with the firewire one.
[12:58] <sakrecoer> i'll just use the setting recommended for profession/prosumer audio on that one :D
[13:00] <Eickmeyer> As far as the rationale on switching to Pipewire by default: all the other flavors did it, so we needed to do it for compatibility reasons. Also, if we didn't do it, then we would never do it. Being stuck in the past and not moving forward with technology because "it's always been that way" is no excuse for not doing what needs to be done.
[13:00] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, if you need to use the old Jack/PulseAudio setup, do it. Nothing is stopping you.
[13:01] <sakrecoer> first part makes a lot of sense!
[13:01] <sakrecoer> second part, is your opinion and i respect it. Mine is not the contrary but not the same
[13:01] <Eickmeyer> Even falktx considers Pipewire "Jack3".
[13:02] <sakrecoer> i'm not sure what that is supposed to say to me, but i don't think it makes sense to discuss any further. I understand why you made it default, that's all i was asking for
[13:03] <Eickmeyer> Sounds good.
[13:04] <sakrecoer> thanks for all the hard work, Eickmeyer! i mean it!
[13:04] <sakrecoer> have good friday everyone!
[13:04] <Eickmeyer> You're quite welcome. I guess I just feel attacked sometimes when it comes to that decision. :)
[13:07] <sakrecoer> i appologize if i made you feel attacked. that was not my intention. i do contain a certain degree of frustration in that my rig is suddenly no longer operational. But i don't mean to put that on you.
[13:08] <Eickmeyer> Well, that's why the multiple options exist. I hope that 24.04 has all the kinks worked out.
[13:08] <sakrecoer> or anyone for that matter. all i want is to understand where things are going, and what i can do to mitigate the present and anticipate the future.
[13:08] <Eickmeyer> PipeWire is largely out of my hands since it's in main and that's a core dev access thing.
[13:09] <sakrecoer> i know from history that you will do a great job and i have no doubt about that. It might not pleas me, but that is my problem. not yours <3
[13:10] <sakrecoer> although, i'm pretty sure i will be impressed :) 
[13:11] <sakrecoer> anyways, gotta go back to the coal mine. Thank you for the indicators and for your time!
[13:13] <Eickmeyer> See ya! o/
[19:19] <OvenWerks> sakrecoer: pulse/jack is not pro, jack on its own is. Pulse still has (and always will have) issues. PW is where linux is going, either peacefully or kicking and screaming.
[19:22] <OvenWerks> PW is in many ways better than pa/jack already. It handles (un)plugging of devices much better and for anything but FW devices is pretty good. It still respects jackd or Ardour asking for a device.
[19:24] <OvenWerks> PW dev has stated there are plans to allow the use of jackd backends like ffado and intends to use the jackd libjack directly in the future as well.
[19:25] <OvenWerks> Things have moved forward since then as I have been out of things for a while.
[19:27] <OvenWerks> I think the only place it is worth using jackd any more has nothing to do with pulse as PA does not handle low latency very well in my experince. Even if it dose work, it sure uses a lot of dsp/cpu compared to jackd, etc.
[19:29] <OvenWerks> So, if using a computer strictly as an effects box or softsynth (I am "soft" on the softsynth as mostly I can get by with more latency there) I would jackd only. Say with a R-pi for example.