[00:05] <arraybolt3> can someone think of an arbitrary app that still uses GTK 2 off the top of their heads?
[00:05] <arraybolt3> trying to test theming changes
[00:07] <arraybolt3> nope, even that's gtk 3
[00:09] <arraybolt3> sheesh, it's like all of LXDE is GTK3 now?!
[00:10] <arraybolt3> unbelievable. I thought LXDE was all GTK2-land still.
[00:11]  * arraybolt3 installs Lazarus IDE, that's the only one I know of that's for sure still GTK2
[00:11] <arraybolt3> unless of course it's been changed since then, but even the latest releases were still stuck there last I saw
[00:16] <arraybolt3> alrighty, it worked
[00:22] <arraybolt3> I'm a bit worried about shipping these default config files the way I'm doing them - I'm putting them under /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc and /usr/share/gtk-3.0/settings.ini, which sounds like I am just *begging* to cause a file conflict...
[00:22] <arraybolt3> I should find out if there are XDG-compliant locations to put those.
[00:26]  * guiverc still uses hexchat here, it's GTK2 still as far as I can see...
[00:33] <arraybolt3> well GTK2 allows me to set it via XDG. GTK3 is being more stubborn though.
[00:40] <arraybolt3> grrr, may have to use gsettings to untangle this
[00:41] <arraybolt3> I really hope not though, I don't get why two of the default locations for settings.ini work but the only one that I really want to work doesn't work.
[00:49] <arraybolt3> wow, gsettings doesn't work either
[00:49] <arraybolt3> hmm, going to have to ask someone more knowledgable about GNOME what to do I guess.
 Can't you set GTK themes within LXQt itself?
 Also, bah, GTK 2 can go the way of Qt 4 :P
[01:18] <arraybolt3> Yes, but it's setting them in user-specific methods.
[01:18] <arraybolt3> hahaha GTK2 worked, GTK3 is what's broken
[01:18] <arraybolt3> *user-specific locations
 (Historical context for those who don't know: I'm the one who specifically told the archive admins to remove Qt 4, and I'll be going on the same warpath for Qt 5 soon enough. :P)
[01:19] <arraybolt3> for some reason I can set the GTK3 theme in a user-specific location, and in the seriously sledgehammer-level distro-wide location, but not in the "default but try not to break anything" location under /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu.
 I remember Adam joking once he did the final removal, "okay, let's do GTK 2 next!"
[01:20]  * arraybolt3 misses Plasma 4 :(
[01:20] <arraybolt3> at any rate, spinning up a VM to rule out the possibility of a corrupted system on my end. My dev VM has been through some... trials... under my rule.
[01:21] <arraybolt3> not quite as bad as what guiverc puts his through though
 So, the user level settings are actually copied over from the XDG directory. They're not layered like they should be.
 
 In an ideal world, if we changed a default setting and the user didn't override it, that default setting should just carry over to their config. The users' config really only has to have Δ(default, theirs), not theirs
 
 I have a feeling the location of your bug is going to be in LXQt itself. Perhaps lxqt-session since that's where startlxqt lives
 Re: Plasma 4 XD
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/207bd934/file_10306.jpg
[01:23] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: I don't have any user-level GTK 3 setting set when this happens :P
 So, LXQt should set the appropriate user level setting, shouldn't it? :P
[01:23] <arraybolt3> so, full picture: /usr/share/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (exists), /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (doesn't exist), ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (doesn't exist) <-- this combo works
[01:23] <guiverc> don't worry @tsimonq2, I see support stuff for Qt4 on occasion; and my paste includes ref to https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/removing-qt-4-from-ubuntu-before-the-20-04-release/12295 & ML :)
[01:24] <guiverc> (thus everyone knows it's Simon's fault !)
[01:24] <arraybolt3>  /usr/share/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (doesn't exist), /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (exists), ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini (doesn't exist) <-- this combo doesn't work
[01:24]  * guiverc said ^ tongue in cheek :)
 LMFAO guiverc :)))
 arraybolt3: https://github.com/lxqt/lxqt-config/blob/master/lxqt-config-appearance/gtkconfig.cpp#L80
 /me motions for genii to bring arraybolt3 some more coffee
[01:28] <arraybolt3> hmm, interesting question, do we even *have* an xsettingsd in Lubuntu?
 "So what about GTK 4 themes?" Good question, was thinking the same thing myself. :P
 That's a good one. I'm not sure. Let's look at default settings?
[01:28] <arraybolt3> GTK4 is mostly libadwaita which has "Stop Theming My App!" as its mantra.
 Sigh. That'll be fun
[01:29] <arraybolt3> libadwaita is intentionally difficult to theme. Most GTK4 stuff that I know of is also libadwaita, so... yeah.
[01:29] <arraybolt3> for now GTK4 can stick out like a sore thumb and like it that way :P
[01:30]  * genii meets Juan Valdez at the border, obtains freshly roasted premium contraband beans, paddles his canoe back to where the aeropress is to prepare a coffee for arraybolt3
[01:31] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.Settings.html this is why I ask about xsettingsd
[01:31] <arraybolt3> if GTK3 can get settings from it, it ignores everything else it seems.
 bah bah bah
 this is why we aren't a GTK shop y'all :P
 *grumbles in greybeard*
[01:34] <arraybolt3> (I've actually tried to do some GTK programming before. I say tried because it was very painful even trying to use their fancy Vala language.)
[01:35]  * genii slides arraybolt3 and tsimonq2 fresh mugs, then wanders back to the beer fridge
[01:36] <arraybolt3> ok so we do not have xsettingsd in Lubuntu, confirmed
 /me gives genii a bow and thanks him for the kind gesture
[01:36]  * arraybolt3 wishes virtual coffee weren't quite so virtual
[01:38] <arraybolt3> (I take back what I said about GTK - it is frustrating in many ways, but it works, and I have used it and liked it before, I'm just particularly not fond of it this moment since it's being tricky.)
 ;)
 (That's the right way to put it, despite the ephemeral rage it produces.)
[01:40] <arraybolt3> alright, fresh VM, tried putting settings.ini in the XDG location, no dice.
[01:41] <arraybolt3> no xsettingsd, no user config to get in the way, settings are probably in the wrong place but for no reason I can tell, and they're getting silently ignored.
[01:41] <arraybolt3> aaaand I just Ctrl+C'd my QEMU instance trying to stop a different program. Fun.
 *bonks arraybolt3*
 Ready to use virt-manager yet my friend? 😁
[01:45] <arraybolt3> nope :P
 *shrug* alright LMAO
[01:49] <arraybolt3> well... there's one heavy-handed way to get GTK to comply once and for all here, but it's a bit severe.
[01:49] <arraybolt3> patch startlxqt
[01:50] <arraybolt3> it's just a script, it sets environment variables as part of what it does, we could just set GTK_THEME in there. Though the user might have trouble overriding it thereafter...
 So, if you set the theme to something else it works, just the default isn't working? Am I reading that correctly?
[01:51] <arraybolt3> yeah that's not overridable without setting the env var to something else.
[01:51] <arraybolt3> Correct, if I set the theme to something else, works just fine.
[01:51] <arraybolt3> If I set the default, it gets ignored.
[01:51] <arraybolt3> Regardless of whether the user has any config set or not.
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/a4f86aaa/huntingwabbits_huntingbuggs.mp4
[01:58] <arraybolt3> well. I'm tired and think this is probably a lost cause for the time being. I asked a question in the GTK Matrix room, we'll see if someone notices. I have to go afk for a bit, I may be back later or even soon.
 Our XDG handling has always been a hot button issue for LXQt because I'm 100% convinced we're the only LXQt distro that ships the XDG spec as designed
[01:58] <arraybolt3> Probably will work some more on the updater when I get back.
[01:58] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: yikes
 So I'd triple check XDG vars. As an *absolute last case scenario* if you can't figure it out, yeah just add a conditional to startlxqt which says "iff [if and only if] there is no existing GTK 3 config, copy over ours" or something
 That likelihood seems high. (re @tsimonq2: Our XDG handling has always been a hot button issue for LXQt because I'm 100% convinced we're the only LXQt distro that ships the XDG spec as designed)
[02:00] <arraybolt3> omw I think I just found it
 ohhhhhhhh?
[02:01] <arraybolt3> I found it!
[02:01] <arraybolt3>  /etc/gtk-3.0/settings.ini was forcing Yaru as the theme.
 AHAHAHAHAHA
[02:01] <arraybolt3> because libgtk-3.0 ships it
 Oh gawd. Okay.
[02:01] <arraybolt3> so now we have to tell someone that that's a big no-no or fix whatever code gives that file higher priority.
[02:01] <arraybolt3> (probably the latter :-/)
 Sounds like I'm doing my second ever gtk-3.0 upload :P
[02:02] <arraybolt3> orrr....
[02:02] <arraybolt3>  /etc is given higher priority than /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu in $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS it looks like.
[02:02] <arraybolt3> how 'bout we flip that around?
[02:03] <arraybolt3> (I think later fields in the list are higher priorities than earlier ones right?)
[02:03] <arraybolt3> hmm, I can see that going south though
[02:03] <arraybolt3> really I think libgtk-3.0 shouldn't be shipping that file, that's a very heavy-handed location for it to be in.
 Absolute +1, could you see what happens when you remove it?
[02:04] <arraybolt3> Already did.
[02:04] <arraybolt3> It makes it work.
[02:04] <arraybolt3> (just moved the settings.ini to settings.ini.old)
[02:04] <arraybolt3> Putting it back breaks it again.
 Well, well, well. Kay, I'll take care of GTK 3. Is jbicha still here on the IRC side or did he dip out after the Summit?
 We should also see what switching those env vars around actually does..
 ACTUALLY...
 I know you're right on that one too. Remember, for the live environment, we're doing some of SDDM's work since the session name doesn't match
 That puts xdg-Lubuntu *before* XDG
 (If that makes sense)
[02:06] <arraybolt3> yeah, lower in priority
[02:06] <arraybolt3> right now /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu is lowest, then /etc/xdg, then /etc, then /usr/share.
[02:07] <arraybolt3> or... is that backwards?
[02:07] <arraybolt3> I can't tell, ERR:BRAINFRIED
[02:07] <arraybolt3> something has to take priority over something, and right now the priorities are out of whack, that's all I know.
 Yeah that's backwards go take your break :) we found the issue tbh
 Er, the more I think about it, the more I wonder about that config file...
 There should be *some* default in the actual source package but it shouldn't be Yaru, that should be an Ubuntu thing
 I'd laugh if GTK 3 actually depends on Yaru. If it doesn't, technically speaking that's a bug in and of itself.
 Anyway, looks like I'm uploading SDDM as well heh
[02:10] <arraybolt3> Will upload lubuntu-default-settings when I get back.
 (I'm thinking, don't quote me on that yet; this may end up being tomorrow or EOY anyway)
 Thank you :D
 @Eickmeyer @RikMills hi there's a chance I'll have to screw with an SDDM patch soon for more XDG handing goodies. Y'all care if it doesn't break your stuff?
 Plz don't break it kthx (re @tsimonq2: @Eickmeyer @RikMills hi there's a chance I'll have to screw with an SDDM patch soon for more XDG handling goodies. Y'all care, if it doesn't break your stuff?)
[02:50] <arraybolt3> Just had Lubuntu Noble place me in Denver with the timezone detection. We are officially not bugged!
[02:51] <arraybolt3> oh nice, just got Cala to crash my whole X server
[02:51] <arraybolt3> um...
[02:52] <Eickmeyer> I just wish Canonical's tzdata wouldn't place me in mountain time every time I'm in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Everything in Idaho is in Pacific time north of the Salmon River.
[02:52] <arraybolt3> well hey, I started my VM with the wrong options anyway so I guess that was a helpful crash.
[02:52] <arraybolt3> Eickmeyer: :-/
[02:53] <arraybolt3> IMO timezone detection is slightly... pointless? I mean does MS get it any more right than Canonical does?
[02:53] <Eickmeyer> Yes. Yes they do.
 I always show up in NY :P
[02:53] <arraybolt3> well maybe one day they'll hand over their secret sauce to Canonical in exchange for WSL :P
[02:54] <Eickmeyer> It's simple geolocation based on IP. There's not much to it.
[02:55] <Eickmeyer> Canonical is just doing it based on state and making an assumption that whole states are in a time zone.
[03:02] <arraybolt3> alright, settings changes work, time to review and upload 🎉
[03:06] <arraybolt3> Uploaded. GTK2 apps will now use Breeze. GTK3 apps will be hung up on the bug we just discussed.
 Ok, when you have a build to test please ping again (re @tsimonq2: @Eickmeyer @RikMills hi there's a chance I'll have to screw with an SDDM patch soon for more XDG handling goodies. Y'all care, if it doesn't break your stuff?)
[15:26] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: Did you already file a bug for the Gtk 3 config file weirdness, or should I do that?
[15:53] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: Go for it.
[15:54] <tsimonq2> I have some emergent $dayjob work, then I'll be looking at this.
[16:08] <arraybolt3> Preparing bug report.
[16:19] <arraybolt3> LP: #2047705
[16:19] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Launchpad bug 2047705 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "Packaging ships /etc/gtk-3.0/settings.ini, forcing the GTK3 theme to Yaru and preventing flavors from overriding it with XDG configuration" [Undecided, New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2047705
[16:46] <tsimonq2> Looks like I accidentally paused my IRC client process and it disconnected me. :P
[16:46] <tsimonq2> Anyway, looking.
[16:46] <tsimonq2> Thanks for your help here, arraybolt3! Especially the upload.
[16:47] <arraybolt3> Glad to help!
[16:47] <arraybolt3> You got the bug link right?
[16:47] <tsimonq2> Until we're completely on Matrix, I still have Telegram :D
[16:47] <arraybolt3> nifty
[17:07] <tsimonq2> $ echo $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS
[17:07] <tsimonq2> /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu:/etc/xdg:/etc:/usr/share
[17:07] <tsimonq2> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[17:10] <arraybolt3> I'm guessing that's backwards or something.
[17:11] <arraybolt3> I would think /etc/xdg would take priority over xdg-Lubuntu, and /etc would take priority over that, but /usr/share looks like it's definitely in the wrong place
[17:11] <arraybolt3> still wouldn't fix the bug, but perhaps then Ubuntu could move that default file to /usr/share/gtk-3.0
[17:15] <tsimonq2> */usr/share* ahh ok
[17:24]  * tsimonq2 slaps arraybolt3 with a wet fish
[17:25] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: missing: https://git.lubuntu.me/Lubuntu/lubuntu-default-settings
[17:25] <arraybolt3> oof, sorry
[17:25] <arraybolt3> fixing
[17:25] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: also I'm curious why neither of these files are actually installed
[17:25] <arraybolt3> which files?
[17:26] <arraybolt3> I tested the package in a VM and it installed the file for me.
[17:26] <arraybolt3> *files
[17:26] <arraybolt3> if that's what you mean
[17:29] <tsimonq2> yeah the two new files you created aren't showing up on my actual system I'm dogfooding
[17:29]  * tsimonq2 does further Checking
[17:29] <tsimonq2> wtf the build log says they're shipped
[17:29] <tsimonq2> apt-file show doesn't display them hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[17:34] <arraybolt3> ls /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu
[17:34] <arraybolt3> if you have gtk-2.0 and gtk-3.0 folders in there, it works.
[17:35] <arraybolt3> If not, fix your system :P
[17:37] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: no dude, the latest ISO with the latest default settings doesn't have em
[17:37] <tsimonq2> And I'm *shocked* because it says they're installed: launchpadlibrarian.net/706332591/buildlog_ubuntu-noble-amd64.lubuntu-default-settings_24.04.3_BUILDING.txt.gz
 https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/207bd934/file_10306.jpg
[17:38] <tsimonq2> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[17:39] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: eh? That's odd...
[17:40] <arraybolt3> ISO respin I guess?
 That's some strange stuff indeed.
[17:40] <tsimonq2> I can reproduce it locally too
[17:41] <arraybolt3> grrrr
[17:41] <arraybolt3> then why did it just work when I did it?!
[17:41] <arraybolt3> maybe I didn't test properly, idk
[17:43] <arraybolt3> I installed Noble in a VM, got the .deb into the VM, booted it, installed the .deb with apt, and then checked and make sure the theming changes worked before uploading, so I know I did test this.
[17:45] <tsimonq2> False alarm. Totally PEBKAC. My apologies.
 heisenbug
[17:46] <arraybolt3> whew
[17:48] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: In your testing, were the settings from Lubuntu's XDG directory automatically copied over?
[17:49] <arraybolt3> I don't *think* so. I may have forgotten to test that part though, but I think that did not happen.
[17:49] <arraybolt3> I didn't tweak the appearance settings after installing the package, I just let the package do its thing on its own.
[17:49] <arraybolt3> (moving the blocking file from libgtk of course)
[18:24] <tsimonq2> lxqt-session upload coming fixing this
[18:35] <arraybolt3> tsimonq2: orly?
[18:35] <arraybolt3> how'd you do it?
[18:39] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxqt-session/1.4.0-0ubuntu3
[18:40] <tsimonq2> This should completely fix everything for us *without* a GTK 3 upload. :)
[18:40] <arraybolt3> ah, nice...
[18:40] <arraybolt3> ...though does that override the user's settings?
[18:40] <arraybolt3> Like if they set a GTK theme on purpose, will this keep "undoing" that?
[18:41] <tsimonq2> https://git.lubuntu.me/Lubuntu/lxqt-session-packaging/commit/5fd7bd386045d577e082926753c850f4c28bb91a
[18:41] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Commit 5fd7bd3 in Lubuntu/lxqt-session-packaging "Copy over GTK 3 settings by default (LP: #2047705)."
[18:41] <tsimonq2> And nope. :)
[18:41] <arraybolt3> nifty!
 Willing to bet we just need to add an additional comment header to make LXQt not trigger this warning on first theme change : https://matterbridge.lubuntu.me/0ae62b02/file_10313.jpg
 Also TODO: reset to default settings
[18:45] <tsimonq2> Also just confirmed that without Lubuntu's default settings, Yaru is still the default.
[18:46] <tsimonq2> arraybolt3: Are you suuuuuuuuuuuure GTK 2 was working?
[18:46] <tsimonq2> Not that I'm inclined to care at all anymore, tbh. :P
[18:46] <arraybolt3> Quite sure.
[18:47] <tsimonq2> So, when I open up a new session, why is Arc-Darker still the default GTK 2 theme? :P
[18:49] <arraybolt3> Probably an LXQt bug.
[18:50] <arraybolt3> Launch an actual GTK2 app like Hexchat or Lazarus and you'll see the theming is right.
[18:50] <arraybolt3> Better yet, move /etc/xdg/xdg-Lubuntu/gtk-2.0/gtkrc to somewhere else and launch Hexchat again and see the difference.
[18:50] <arraybolt3> It goes from looking fairly modern to like it just crawled out of Windows 95.
[18:55] <tsimonq2> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... okay.
[18:56] <tsimonq2> I *think* we're in the clear. I'll do a followup respin once lxqt-session migrates.
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxqt-session/+bug/1824654
[19:31] -ubottu:#lubuntu-devel- Launchpad bug 1824654 in lxqt-session (Ubuntu) "using BROWSER environment variable to set default browser creates several problems" [High, Triaged]
[19:40] <arraybolt3> that would be a really nice one to fix this cycle
 Respin will land in the next 20 minutes with fixed GTK stuff and things