[02:37] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[12:18] <lotuspsychje> agree on your new comment on that bug JanC 
[12:19] <lotuspsychje> i also still got users needing chrome instead of FF snap for EID not working
[15:32] <JanC> lotuspsychje: they can also use Firefox from the PPA or IronWolf or such if they prefer a Firefox-based browser
[16:15] <lotuspsychje> JanC: nothing we can use from the repos by default?
[16:18] <JanC> AFAIK they made sure to remove everything else that could work before breaking it...
[16:19] <lotuspsychje> yeah so far chrome bypasses good for me
[16:19] <lotuspsychje> but its anoying for customers
[16:21] <JanC> Chrome has other issues though
[16:21] <lotuspsychje> true
[16:23] <JanC> e.g. my dad wouldn't want to use it
[16:23] <JanC> and the PPA works fine (for now, and hopefully for a long time)
[16:24] <lotuspsychje> well i want my customers to keep FF snap as main browser
[16:24] <lotuspsychje> and then when they need a quick eid use chrome
[16:25] <lotuspsychje> try to keep things as vanilla as possible
[16:25] <lotuspsychje> but now we got a new pro surprise too lol
[16:28] <JanC> could install FF ESR from the PPA next to the snap FF maybe (although that might be tricky if there is a snap version of that too?)
[16:29] <lotuspsychje> yeah well i dont want dependency nightmares
[16:30] <JanC> the PPA is well-contained (only contains Firefox & Thunderbird), so that should be okay
[16:31] <lotuspsychje> lets just hope that snap bug gets solved this century
[16:32] <JanC> it's not the only thing broken like that...
[16:33] <lotuspsychje> yeah mean on FF snap?
[16:33] <JanC> yes
[16:33] <lotuspsychje> yeah i got a few more bugs there
[16:34] <lotuspsychje> but not too many users want to go file bugs upstream
[16:37] <JanC> well, the bug is in using snaps in Ubuntu while the technology isn't ready yet...
[16:38] <JanC> or more exactly: in forcing its use
[16:39] <lotuspsychje> yeah
[16:44] <ogra_> note that the PPA is solely used to backport to older, still supported releases and for security fixes ... once these releases go away the PPA might simply stop being updated, which will mean you will silently not get updates anymore
[16:45] <JanC> well, you are forcing peopel to use it, so...
[16:45] <ogra_> tsk
[16:45] <ogra_> nobody is forcing anybody ... 
[16:45] <JanC> you = Ubuntu/Canonical
[16:45] <ogra_> (else you wouldnt have the above option)
[16:46] <JanC> it's one of several options that are not officially supported
[16:46] <ogra_> yeah ... like it has been since day one
[16:46] <JanC> and all the officially supported options are broken
[16:46] <ogra_> there has always ben exactly one supported option for everything 
[16:47] <JanC> so people are forced to use a non-supported one
[16:47] <ogra_> not broken here ...
[16:47] <ogra_> nobody is forced to switch really
[16:47] <JanC> because you don't live in a country where you have to use eIDs or a company that uses smartcards, or anything like that...
[16:48] <ogra_> well, afaik eID usage apart from belgium is solved 
[16:48] <JanC> if I don't file my taxes I'll probably end up in jail
[16:49] <JanC> you are saying smartcards work now?
[16:49] <ogra_> (and probably brazil, iirc that were the two countrie doing non-std stuff)
[16:49] <JanC> they didn't a month ago
[16:49] <ogra_> smartcards in general work since years ... but there are some specific implementation that do not 
[16:50] <ogra_> either way, you are free to use FF from mozilla directly (i'd not use the PPA ... but up to you)
[16:50] <ogra_> nobody forces anybody to anything ... and canonical is free to decide what it supports
[16:51] <ogra_> or do you disagree with that ?
[16:51] <lotuspsychje> lts upgrade from focal to jammy went to FF snap automaticly
[16:51] <lotuspsychje> meaning all my customers didnt have a choice right
[16:51] <ogra_> right ... from one supported option to the other
[16:51] <JanC> still, they give shoddy support, and then expect people to subscribe to a "support service"
[16:51] <ogra_> should users have been left witout a browser ?
[16:51] <JanC> at least, that's how it looks to users
[16:52] <ogra_> no, that is how people try to make it look in forums 
[16:52] <JanC> they should have had a *working* browser
[16:53] <ogra_> ... trying to put intent into actions that have never been there ... usually to generate clickbait
[16:54] <ogra_> and most users *do* have a working browser ... some do not ... do you tink that has been different with the non snapped FF ? there have always been users that had issues ... like with every software
[16:54] <lotuspsychje> its not leaving the user the choice, what made tons of users leave ubuntu
[16:54] <JanC> in this case something that always worked stopped working
[16:54] <ogra_> HUH ???
[16:55] <ogra_> how is anything here not leaving users the choice ? see above 
[16:55] <ogra_> you can install the tarball if that works better for you ... you can use the PPA, you can pick another browser etc etc 
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> many of my users need a vanilla system by default
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> not one automaticly choosing stuff for them
[16:56] <JanC> it doesn't look good on Canonical when something as basic as a browser breaks & doesn't get fixed (except by some unofficial side-channel)
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> agree JanC 
[16:56] <JanC> or good on Ubuntu really
[16:56] <ogra_> and FWIW, it is opensurce, you can at any point help fixing the issue ... just because there are no resources to work o a bug doesnt mean a fix would not be accepted
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> now we got just the same with pro..
[16:57] <ogra_> right ... because free security fixes are so bad
[16:57] <lotuspsychje> a greyed out update manager looks real bad
[16:57] <lotuspsychje> specialy for users that not understand whats going on
[16:57] <JanC> last time I looked at the bug reports the upstreams couldn't seem to agree on how it should be fixed & what they would accept...
[16:57] <ogra_> well, feel free to make suggestions for better implementations
[16:58] <ogra_> see my comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/2047778
[16:58] -ubottu:#ubuntu-discuss- Launchpad bug 2047778 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Software Updater unable to cancel Ubuntu Pro upgrade" [Undecided, Confirmed]
[16:58] <lotuspsychje> it started well on enabling pro in software&sources
[16:59] <lotuspsychje> thats a choice
[16:59] <lotuspsychje> but enabling pro from update manager with a whole list of no updateable packages is wrong
[17:00] <ogra_> so you prefer that users are left with open security holes without knowing ?
[17:01] <ogra_> (again please read my comment in the bug)
[17:01] <lotuspsychje> so a vanilla ubuntu system is vulnerable by default?
[17:01] <JanC> vanilla doesn't have anything from universe
[17:01] <ogra_> a vanila ubuntu system will not show you a list of updateable universe packages
[17:02] <lotuspsychje> then the user should need to get a warning when installing packages from universe
[17:03] <JanC> I was actually still working on a reply with suggestions for the bug report BTW, so you'll see that at some time  :)
[17:03] <ogra_> well, suggest that under the url i posted to the bug 
[17:03] <ogra_> thats probably a good idea 
[17:03] <ogra_> i.e. pointing to pro when you install somethig from universe
[17:04] <ogra_> but some users might want to do that proactively before, so it still needs an option 
[17:05] <JanC> well, that was lotuspsychje's idea so I'll let him post it there if he wants
[17:05] <lotuspsychje> or make a category on software centre with universe
[17:06] <lotuspsychje> you can mention it JanC 
[17:06] <JanC> some packages in universe do get community support AFAIK
[17:06] <ogra_> yeah, about ten to twenty or so 
[17:07] <ogra_> and thats still available if you prefer
[17:07] <lotuspsychje> ogra_: you got another link to follow this bug #1741074  progress?
[17:07] -ubottu:#ubuntu-discuss- Bug 1741074 in firefox (Ubuntu) "[snap] chrome-gnome-shell extension fails to detect native host connector" [High, In Progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1741074
[17:09] <ogra_> lotuspsychje, i just installed an extension via my snapped FF ... not sure why that is still open
[17:09] <lotuspsychje> or where do you see smartcard fixes
[17:09] <lotuspsychje> yeah but belgian EID has some software and packages from the repos too
[17:10] <lotuspsychje> snap FF giving a notify bubble ontop the extension cant be loaded
[17:10] <ogra_> https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/native-messaging-support-in-strictly-confined-browser-snaps/26849
[17:13] <lotuspsychje> seems like your linked is shown here https://eid.belgium.be/en/faq/why-it-not-possible-use-eid-software-snap-andor-flatpak#7636
[17:15] <ogra_> well, to properly fix it someone should implement an xdg portal ... 
[17:15] <ogra_> like described in the link i posted
[17:15] <ogra_> seems nobody stepped up to do that yet 
[17:16] <lotuspsychje> ok
[17:17] <JanC> I remember a while ago someone was discussing a possible solution but the separate upstreams disagreed on how it should be fixed, which is not necessarily encouraging...  ;)
[17:18] <ogra_> yeah, people tend to have opinions ... news at ten 🙂
[17:19] <JanC> the problem then is will you spend time (& money) on something that might be rejected?
[17:19] <ogra_> (its not like you couldn fork it and simply implement it )
[17:20] <JanC> I hope at some point everyone will agree on how to fix it
[17:23] <ogra_> code talks in the end ... i'm pretty sure if there would be *some* patch ubuntu could ship to fix it, it would be shipped (if not overly insanely implemented) ... just like the triple buffering stuff