[14:12] <ogra_> sem, the firefox deb (at least in the PPA) is not actually supported by anyone since the PPA is only used for backports to older releases (so neither support or testing on current releases happens for these debs ... ) the only supported FF you can use on ubuntu is the snap (supported and tested by mozilla) ... if you want to go the non-snap route the only "supported" option is the tarball
[15:50] <Eickmeyer> ogra_: I love how omgubuntu is dead wrong: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2024/01/firefox-122-released-with-official-deb
[15:52] <leftyfb> they're not wrong
[15:52] <leftyfb> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/install-firefox-linux?utm_source=www.mozilla.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=firefox-download-thanks#w_install-firefox-deb-package-for-debian-based-distributions
[15:52] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: Read what ogra_ just posted.
[15:53] <leftyfb> Eickmeyer: Read what I jut posted
[15:53] <leftyfb> just*
[15:53] <leftyfb> it's a repo from Mozilla hosting their officially supported .deb
[15:53] <Eickmeyer> That means we have two official sources in conflict with each other.
[15:53] <leftyfb> not the PPA and not the tarball
[15:54] <leftyfb> how are they in conflict?
[15:54] <leftyfb> use 1 or the other, your choice
[15:54] <arraybolt3> I don't think Firefox *has* an officially supported .deb (you can't download one from their website, and the PPA is unofficial even if Mozilla people are involved with itAFAIK)
[15:54] <leftyfb> both are supported and maintained by Mozilla
[15:54] <leftyfb> arraybolt3: please read the link I just posted
[15:54] <leftyfb> that has apparently changed recently
[15:55] <Eickmeyer> The snap is 100% Mozilla's idea, so why the about-face then?
[15:55] <leftyfb> user feedback
[15:55] <arraybolt3> So wait... they have their own apt repo now separate from the PPA?
[15:55] <leftyfb> also probably due to known issues with the snap
[15:55] <leftyfb> arraybolt3: yes
[15:56] <arraybolt3> huh, sure enough
[15:56] <leftyfb> for most users, the snap is probably fine. But if you need things like EID, the .deb from Mozilla is probably best
[15:56] <arraybolt3> Eickmeyer: The "official deb package" is literally a whole new repo, not the PPA. Just like how you install Element from a third-party repo that isn't a PPA.
[15:56] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: I understand that, I've been keeping up. Slightly discouraging.
[15:57] <leftyfb> why is it discouraging?
[15:57] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: I'd rather not go there.
[15:57] <leftyfb> Until the snap issues are resolved, users now have the ability to install the .deb and not have issue
[15:57] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: FWIW, the Element snap is done by Ken Van Dine, not by Element themseves.
[15:57] <arraybolt3> It is interesting to see that the article can't decide if it's Firefox 122 or 112.
[15:57] <arraybolt3> :P
[15:58] <arraybolt3> Eickmeyer: I was referring to Element's deb repo, not the snap, but I get you.
[15:58] <leftyfb> either way, this is a win-win for everyone. Except maybe the Firefox snap, which is maintained by Mozilla. This just gives more time to sort out the snap issues
[15:58] <arraybolt3> anyway, the Firefox snap works just fine for me, but I generally use apps in a fairly "vanilla" mode so...
[15:59] <leftyfb> ditto
[15:59] <leftyfb> like I said, the snap is fine for most. The .deb is for those that need additional features which the snap does not currently support
[16:00] <leftyfb> hopefully the snap (snaps in general) can improve to the point where the Mozilla .deb repo won't be necessary
[16:01] <leftyfb> It would have been nice for OMGu to actually link to the Mozilla .deb instructions or mention the fact that they exist. The article doesn't give any details on HOW to attain the Firefox .deb at all
[16:02] <arraybolt3> gah, /me is having serious problems with x11vnc crashing multiple times each session
[16:03] <arraybolt3> let's see if turning off compositing makes it have mercy on me
[16:03] <arraybolt3> nope
[16:03] <arraybolt3> sigh, guess I have some bug reporting to do
[16:04] <leftyfb> !firefox
[16:04] <leftyfb> I think we should have a !firefoxdeb or something to point people who ask to the instructions
[16:05] <Eickmeyer> Or... don't rely on the bot and actually have a conversation?
[16:05] <Eickmeyer> Develop relationships?
[16:05] <arraybolt3> lotuspsychje might be able to help with that, they know the right buttons to get things added to the bot
[16:06] <arraybolt3> Eickmeyer: ...?
[16:06] <arraybolt3> It's just a speed assist. People can develop relationships and not have to copypasta things like crazy.
 heya, I'm tired of the Firefox snap. Any way to install it from a .deb again?
 !firefoxdeb
 ^ try those instructions, should get you going quickly.
[16:07] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: I get that, but should only be used if it gets asked frequently, not preemptively.
[16:07] <arraybolt3> IMO it gets asked frequently already.
[16:07] <arraybolt3> Not like hyper-frequently, but enough to matter.
[16:07] <arraybolt3> it sure beats !ask and !patience :P those ones just look like they'll make people upset.
[16:07] <leftyfb> it's been one of the most asked questions in the past couple years
[16:08] <Eickmeyer> I mean, it's one of the biggest part of !guidelines I actually agree with that we shouldn't use the bot that much. It's impersonal and doesn't get taken the right way, believe it or not.
[16:09] <arraybolt3> I definitely believe it. I just think that this is one of the areas where it's actually useful.
[16:09] <arraybolt3> If I had my way, we'd have useful bot commands for quick info retrieval, and would throw all of the redirecting ones like !ask and !patience into the dumpster.
[16:09] <arraybolt3> maybe now that the Matrix migration is happening I might actually be able to make that happen :P
[16:10] <Eickmeyer> You can always /msg ubottu !{command}.
[16:10] <leftyfb> they're bringing matrix back????
[16:10] <arraybolt3> right... and then you have to copy-paste obviously canned responses which is both cumbersome for the user and *looks* like a canned responce because it *is*.
[16:10] <Eickmeyer> leftyfb: More like Ubuntu is going to supercede IRC with Matrix. Matrix will become first-class with IRC slowly waning.
[16:10] <arraybolt3> for me a canned response from a human is far more impersonal and crummy than watching them use a bot command - the latter is like seeing someone pull out a file from a cabinet and hand it to you, rather than you transforming into a robot for a second.
[16:11] <leftyfb> ugh
[16:11] <arraybolt3> *cumbersome for the supporter, I mean
[16:11] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: Then personalize it!
[16:12] <arraybolt3> I do... in the message that I send immediately after the bot command :D
[16:12] <arraybolt3> I don't edit the Wiki before each time sending a link to documentation to personalize it for the person I'm sending it to.
[16:12] <Eickmeyer> When I was working in a call center, we had a script, but we were to make it our own, in our own words and not follow it word-for-word. If we followed it word for word, it was actually bad.
[16:12] <arraybolt3> Agreed. Which is why you use bot commands and your own typed messages.
[16:13] <arraybolt3> Ubottu even has a feature for personalizing bot commands in-line, like so:
[16:13] <leftyfb> I'm fine with the way I've been providing free support on IRC for about 16 years now
[16:13] <arraybolt3> !patience | Eickmeyer this works quite well IMO.
[16:13]  * arraybolt3 intentionally picked the worst possible bot command here just because I couldn't think of a better one
[16:14] <Eickmeyer> arraybolt3: Again, it's a bot saying it, but that's one of those commands that makes sense coming from a bot. I'm just saying... ugh, nvm. 
[16:15] <arraybolt3> I think we're on opposite sides of the fence here. For me !patience from a bot is like the single worst turn-off for someone seeking support on IRC that even could be imagined. It instantly conveyes "Don't bother me, I'm not helping lowly little you."
[16:15] <leftyfb> that's not my take on it
[16:15] <arraybolt3> I never use it, and just say "Sometimes it takes a while for someone who knows the answer to your question to show up" or something like that.
[16:15] <arraybolt3> leftyfb: well it smacks me like that every. single. time. I see someone else use it.
[16:16] <leftyfb> for me, I use it when I don't know the answer or don't have time to answer and don't want the person feeling ignored, letting them know to stick around and wait a bit and someone might be able to help them
[16:16] <leftyfb> some people are new to IRC and might assume an immediate response is expected
[16:17] <arraybolt3> :shrug: I've seen it chase people off before, or at least it looked like it's what chased them off.
[16:17] <leftyfb> if it chased them off, my take would be they don't feel like waiting
[16:18] <arraybolt3> I know that if I was new to IRC, came into a room and the first thing I was told was something out of the mouth of a bot about how I had messed up right out of the starting gate, I'd go find support somewhere else pronto, unless I was desperate.
[16:19] <arraybolt3> Telling people how they "failed" near the beginning of a session because they "didn't read the topic" (like IRC clients make that easy) or because they "need to be patient" or because they "shouldn't ask to ask" is not a great experience for the person being told it.
[16:19] <arraybolt3> btw we need a petition for IRC clients to make room topics blindingly obvious if you're new to IRC
[16:19] <arraybolt3> most clients I use, I have trouble reading the topic *intentionally*, much less noticing it in passing.
[16:32] <Menzador> Honestly I do feel like there's too much negative language in !patience
[16:32] <Menzador> I mean, quick! Don't think about a green ball!
[16:33] <Menzador> This has no bearing on the factoid's truth claims; I just feel it might need re-wording in a more positive light
[16:40] <arraybolt3> Menzador: lol exactly
[16:42] <arraybolt3> weird, so it was IntelliJ that was totally throwing my VNC session into chaos it seems?
[16:42] <arraybolt3> anyway, off topic, but suddenly everything's much more well-behaved
[18:09] <ogra_> leftyfb, the mozilla debs do not get tested against recent ubuntu releases ... nobody on the ubuntu side supports them either (not sure if mozilla wants to support them in context of ubuntu though, but i doubt it since they focus on the snap support) ... 
[18:10] <leftyfb> ogra_: if they're provided by Mozilla, then they should certainly be supported by Mozilla
[18:14] <ogra_> leftyfb, well, not sure what they*d do if i.e. the new ubuntu font packages make them redner webistes in a broken way, or mesa in the distro causes incompatibilities etc etc ... but feel free to try out once you hit something with the deb 
[18:15] <leftyfb> I have no need to run the .deb :)
[18:15] <ogra_> 🙂
[18:15] <leftyfb> hell, I hardly use Firefox
[18:16] <ogra_> the other thing is that there is really no guarantee the PPA will persist once the security team does not need it for backports to old releases anyomre whihc is why i usually suggest the tarball to people not wanting the snap since that will keep getting updated regardless
[18:17] <leftyfb> ogra_: you know we're not talking about the PPA right?
[18:17] <ogra_> yes i do ... just saying ... 
[18:17] <ogra_> (since the PPA is more commonly used than the mozilla archive i suspect)
[18:17] <ogra_> (in ubuntu that is)
[18:19] <ogra_> BTW, note how i talked about the PPA in my original message above, not about the mozilla deb archive 😉
[18:19] <leftyfb> The Firefox snap has some corner cases that just don't work today. Building from source is a poor solution. The PPA isn't supported by Mozilla nor Ubuntu. For the small number of cases that the snap just doesn't work, Mozilla's repository is the best solution until the snap developers fix the issues on their end.
[18:20] <leftyfb> And of course then there's the people who just love to hate what's new and at the moment, that's snap
[18:25] <arraybolt3> well, for the first time in my life, I have now intentionally uninstalled every single kernel from a running system and had a relative degree of confidence that I knew what I was doing :P
[18:25] <arraybolt3> (switching a test box from the HWE to GA kernel)
[18:26] <arraybolt3> and now I just issued the reboot command, let's see if I actually did know what I was doing
[18:26] <arraybolt3> woot, success
[18:26] <arraybolt3> system still boots fine
[18:26] <arraybolt3> (after installing linux-generic of course)
[18:58] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3: did you mean to request factoids to ubottu?
[18:59] <lotuspsychje> leftyfb: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/introducing-the-temporary-matrix-council/41348?u=merlijn-sebrechts
[19:02] <arraybolt3> lotuspsychje: yep
[19:02] <arraybolt3> to request the creation of a new factoid
[19:03] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3: EDIT: !no factoid is <reply> foo | ADD NEW: !factoid is <reply> foo
[19:03] <arraybolt3> nifty
[19:04] <lotuspsychje> arraybolt3: this doesnt add or edit right away, your suggestion will goto the ops/editors first for aproval
[19:04] <arraybolt3> right, but that's fine
[19:05] <lotuspsychje> !brain
[19:05] <lotuspsychje> to see latest added/edited factoids