/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2024/02/19/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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rbasako/19:00
vpa1977good evening!19:00
sil2100o/19:01
sil2100vpa1977: good morning o/19:03
rbasakWe need four DMB members ideally, but I think we should proceed with fewer if they don't attend.19:03
rbasakI need a few minutes though19:03
sil2100I think it's a US holiday, so bdmurray might be away19:04
rbasakI'm back19:05
rbasakShall we proceed anyway then?19:05
sil2100Let's do that, yes19:05
rbasak#startmeeting Developer Membership Board19:06
meetingologyMeeting started at 19:06:00 UTC.  The chair is rbasak.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology19:06
sil2100Should I chair or do you want to?19:06
meetingologyAvailable commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick19:06
sil2100Oh, thanks ;)19:06
rbasak#topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications19:06
rbasak#subtopic Vladimir Petko19:06
rbasak#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/vpa1977/CoreDeveloperApplication19:06
rbasakvpa1977: welcome!19:06
vpa1977thank you =)19:06
rbasakvpa1977: would you like to introduce yourself?19:06
* kanashiro waves19:07
vpa1977Hi my name is Vladimir and I am working on Java packages in Ubuntu.19:07
vpa1977I have been involved in development for the past year and before that worked on commercial software.19:07
vpa1977Most notable item is Together (old uml modelling tool) =)19:08
vpa1977at least for me =)19:08
sil2100#link https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=*&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Vladimir+Petko&sponsoree_search=name19:08
rbasakThanks! Let me get started. When is feature freeze please, and how would you find that information?19:09
vpa1977I will be looking at https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/noble-numbat-release-schedule/3564919:09
vpa1977The current deadline is 29 feb19:09
rbasakIf you need a feature freeze exception, what's the process?19:09
vpa1977I will be raising a bug explaining the need for the feature freeze, proposed changes and their impact19:10
vpa1977I will provide a test plan and subscribe ubuntu-release19:10
vpa1977*need for the feature freeze exception19:10
vpa1977The bug will have a debdiff/MP attached and the associated test logs19:11
rbasakOK. Let's say that we have version 1.2-3 packaged, upstream have released 1.2.1, and feature freeze is in effect. Would an upload of 1.2.1 be permitted without an exception, or, if you need more information, what information would that be?19:11
vpa1977I will review changelogs to identify if it is a bugfix release19:12
vpa1977In this case it is allowed to request a feature freeze19:12
vpa1977exception19:12
rbasakOK. Let's say that it is a bugfix release. What package versions string would you expect to use for your upload?19:12
rbasak*package version string19:12
vpa1977It depends if it is Ubuntu specific or debian package. For ubuntu it will be 1.2.1-0ubuntu1 for debian it will be 1.2.1~us1-0ubuntu119:13
vpa1977reason for ~us1 is that original tarballs are not reproducible in some cases19:13
vpa1977and the repack suffix will allow sync with debian19:13
rbasakGood answer :)19:14
vpa1977(not reproducible e.g. when used xz compression)19:14
rbasakLet me move on to transitions19:14
rbasakIn the usual case, how would you verify if an upload you're considering making would introduce a transition or not?19:15
vpa1977The transition will happen when there are API/ABI changes in the package providing a build dependency (e.g. time_t)19:15
vpa1977Or the toolchain changes such as Java 2119:15
vpa1977*build or runtime dependency19:16
vpa1977In this case all dependant package will need to migrate together to ensure that there are no breaks19:17
sil2100I'll have an unrelated question when you're done19:17
rbasakLet's say that the package is src:foo, which generates binary package libfoo1. You're about to update a new major version of src:foo, and you have a test build ready in a PPA. Is there something you can see easily by inspection from the web UI that would instantly tell you if there's an ABI break if this is a normal case with nothing special going on?19:17
vpa1977From the web UI i can the major version change, but I would be looking at reverse-depends and reverse-depends -b to see if it has any dependencies19:19
vpa1977and rebuild those /autopkgtest in the ppa19:19
vpa1977I apologise if I am taking the long route here.19:19
vpa1977But library bumping a major version indicates some kind of break19:19
rbasakIt doesn't necessarily mean it's an ABI break.19:20
rbasakWhat would be the difference, in terms of binary packages generated?19:20
vpa1977Meaning what constitutes the ABI break? Change of function parameters, removal of a function19:21
vpa1977Change of the exported structures19:21
rbasakAssume that it is correctly declared by the packaging19:21
rbasakWhat would be externally visible in the packaging that would indicate the ABI break?19:22
vpa1977as in from launchpad UI ?19:22
rbasakI'm suggesting that it's possible to see from Launchpad web UI what I'm asking for, yes.19:23
rbasakAssuming you have a PPA test build ready19:23
vpa1977hmm... I fail to answer that ;( without looking inside package / at the sources ;(19:24
rbasakOK let's move on.19:25
rbasaksil2100: you said you had a question?19:25
vpa1977(please share the answer later =) )19:25
sil2100Yes, I had an SRU related question!19:25
sil2100I see that you did do a few SRUs, but I just want to make sure. When requesting an SRU, the template requires putting a "Where problems could occur"/"Regression Potential" section19:26
sil2100Can you tell me what is the purpose of it?19:26
sil2100What do we want the SRU requesters to do as part of the preparation of this section?19:27
teward*shows up late*19:28
teward(I had no internet until now sorry, technician was on site fixing the fiber link)19:28
vladimirpsorry disconnect19:28
vladimirpNot sure if the answer got through : the section identifies extended test plan that tries to identify possible regressions/impact on users due to the change19:29
sil2100Thanks o/19:29
sil2100I have no further questions19:30
kanashiroall the answers so far and the endorsements are enough for me to vote19:31
* rbasak is pondering whether he has further questions19:32
rbasakvladimirp: let's say that an upload might have resulted in a component mismatch. Where would you confirm whether this is the case or not, and what are the options available to resolve a component mismatch?19:33
vladimirpLets say I have introduced a dependency on main package which is currently in universe.19:33
vladimirpIn this case I will need to go through MIR process first to move my dependency from universe to main before uploading the package.19:34
vladimirpI can rollback the change by uploading the fix that removes the dependency (if possible)19:34
rbasakOK, thanks.19:35
rbasakI'm ready to vote.19:35
rbasakteward: do you have any questions?19:35
tewardnope, on account you and others have asked the questions I had :)19:35
tewardand also apologies for my being late, I hate being late but when I have no internet...19:35
rbasak#vote Grant Vladimir Petko core dev19:36
meetingologyPlease vote on: Grant Vladimir Petko core dev19:36
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, -1 or +0 in channel (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1|-1|+0 #channelname')19:36
sil2100+119:36
meetingology+1 received from sil210019:36
kanashiro+119:36
meetingology+1 received from kanashiro19:36
teward+119:36
meetingology+1 received from teward19:36
rbasak+1 I think a couple of answers fell a little short of my expectations, but your endorsements speak well of your tendency to be thoughful and ask questions before acting. And some of your answers demonstrates some very deep knowledge. I get the impression you understand the broad picture OK. It sounds like it'd be of net benefit to grant you core dev now and allow you to catch up with the odd gap on19:38
meetingology+1 I think a couple of answers fell a little short of my expectations, but your endorsements speak well of your tendency to be thoughful and ask questions before acting. And some of your answers demonstrates some very deep knowledge. I get the impression you understand the broad picture OK. It sounds like it'd be of net benefit to grant you core dev now and allow you to catch up with the odd gap on received from rbasak19:38
rbasakthe fly.19:38
rbasak#endvote19:38
meetingologyVoting ended on: Grant Vladimir Petko core dev19:38
meetingologyVotes for: 4, Votes against: 0, Abstentions: 019:38
meetingologyMotion carried19:38
sil2100\o/19:39
sil2100vladimirp: congratulations o/19:39
vladimirpThank you =)19:39
kanashirovladimirp congrats!19:39
sil2100You can assign me the action item of following up19:40
vladimirpThank you =)19:40
arraybolt3I just want to say that was awesome to watch. I learned a bit watching this :D19:40
arraybolt3(namely the ~us1 version trick)19:40
rbasakThanks sil2100!19:40
rbasak#action sil2100 to announce vladimirp's successful application19:40
meetingologyACTION: sil2100 to announce vladimirp's successful application19:40
rbasak#action sil2100 to action vladimirp's addition to core dev19:41
meetingologyACTION: sil2100 to action vladimirp's addition to core dev19:41
rbasakWe have time left, so...19:42
rbasak#topic Review of previous action items19:42
rbasakUtkarsh to review the tasks for a DMB election and decide if he can take that on. If not we should choose somebody to run the election.19:42
rbasakHe doesn't seem to be around19:42
rbasak#action Utkarsh to review the tasks for a DMB election and decide if he can take that on. If not we should choose somebody to run the election.19:42
meetingologyACTION: Utkarsh to review the tasks for a DMB election and decide if he can take that on. If not we should choose somebody to run the election.19:42
rbasakteward follow up to get all application process wiki/docs to explain the process to be able to edit wiki pages, for applicants who don't yet have wiki edit access (carried over)19:42
rbasakteward: ?19:43
rbasakI guess we can carry it19:44
rbasak#action teward follow up to get all application process wiki/docs to explain the process to be able to edit wiki pages, for applicants who don't yet have wiki edit access (carried over)19:44
meetingologyACTION: teward follow up to get all application process wiki/docs to explain the process to be able to edit wiki pages, for applicants who don't yet have wiki edit access (carried over)19:44
rbasak#topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign19:44
rbasakI don't see any19:45
rbasak#info No new ML requests seen19:45
rbasak#topic Open TB bugs19:45
rbasak#info No open TB/DMB bugs19:45
rbasak#topic AOB19:45
rbasakAOB?19:45
tsimonq2o/19:45
tewardyeah carry that sorry19:45
rbasaktsimonq2: go ahead please19:45
* rbasak needs to step away for three minuts19:46
tsimonq2> sil2100 to better document what we expect applicants to know, at last an initial draft and then pass over to rbasak (will be carried until mentioned)19:46
tsimonq2So, I have something small started for this.19:46
tsimonq2https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/resources-for-development-related-tasks/42544\19:46
sil2100o/19:47
sil2100Thank you for working on this!19:47
tsimonq2My pleasure :D please do make edits if you see them! I'll be working on it as time allows, ideally before the next DMB meeting.19:47
tsimonq2*see the opportunity for them19:47
sil2100It's a good start I see19:47
tsimonq2Anyway, I'll be here for the next meeting, if you all would like to discuss further progress at that point. :)19:48
tsimonq2sil2100: thanks :)19:48
tsimonq2(EOF)19:48
* rbasak is back19:48
rbasaktsimonq2: that looks great. Thank you!19:49
rbasaktsimonq2: I don't know if you're aware of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev19:50
rbasakThat's just my opinion - I think we were hoping to try and get that adjusted according DMB consensus and then share that more widely.19:50
tsimonq2rbasak: Nope, but now I am :D this is meant to be a shorter reference anyway, with links to something like that.19:50
rbasakThat would be fine I think. The issue (at the DMB end) is that we vary in opinion, but that makes it hard for applicants.19:51
rbasakIt'd be nice to find/negotiate common ground, tweaking as necessary, and have an official DMB opinion.19:51
rbasakAnyway, thank you again for working on this.19:51
tsimonq2I documented this for Lubuntu a while back: https://git.lubuntu.me/lubuntu-wiki/wiki/wiki/lubuntu-dev - might be worth exploring.19:51
tsimonq2rbasak: I completely agree :) thanks for considering it!19:51
rbasakIndeed - that looks like it'd be useful input to a final DMB opinion too!19:52
rbasakAnything else on this to discuss for now?19:52
tsimonq2I'm good if you all are good :)19:52
rbasakAny other business?19:52
arraybolt3vpa1977 wanted to know the answer to the question about transitions that rbasak asked?19:54
rbasakThe binary package generated would have changed from libfoo1 to libfoo2. That's what triggers a "normal" transition - libfoo1 would become uninstallable (and/or NBS) were the package to migrate.19:54
rbasakThough I think vladimirp might have already understood this and it was just a mismatch in communication!19:55
rbasakI find it quite hard to phrase questions to avoid that sort of thing, without giving away my expected answers.19:55
arraybolt3which is exactly what happened to me when you hit me with a near-identical question last January19:55
arraybolt3:P19:56
vladimirpI was thinking - I have a package to review and needs to find if it contains an ABI break.19:56
vladimirpCould have mentioned abi-compliance-checker (but its a nightmare)19:56
vladimirpPlus C++ only19:57
rbasakarraybolt3: indeed :)19:57
rbasakI guess the meeting's done though then?19:57
rbasak#endmeeting19:57
meetingologyMeeting ended at 19:57:47 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2024/ubuntu-meeting.2024-02-19-19.06.moin.txt19:57
rbasakFeel free to carry on chatting if you'd like. I welcome feedback on how I ask questions, too!19:58
rbasakThough I need to go now. I will catch up later.19:58
kanashiroo/19:58
tewardtsimonq2: i'm stealing you btw19:58
tsimonq2teward: ok lol20:01
tsimonq2rbasak: Part of the difficult thing about being on the DMB is, in order to ask the right questions, you need to know your audience for the questions. Many assumptions can be made through reviewing debdiffs, but until there is something clear saying "this is a MOTU, this is a Core Dev," the DMB has a large amount of flexibility on what it can ask.20:06
tsimonq2Now, I'm not suggesting we go full Debian Developer and have pre-written questions. There should, however, be something saying "these are the kinds of questions you can expect."20:06
tsimonq2If there's one thing I've heard from candidates privately that sticks out, it is "I'm scared for the meeting because they could ask anything," and quite honestly, that's the truth. As an existing Ubuntu Developer, it's fun to see, but I remember it being a very anxiety-prone process to go through.20:07
tsimonq2That was the catalyst for writing that reference document above, to get something solid started on this front, to benefit every applicant that comes after Vladimir.20:08
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