[03:26] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[07:53] <veegee> Yes so I'm genuienly curious why canonical keeps trying to make shit software like BZR and Mir and snap and their other weird little network managers
[07:53] <veegee> like why not help open source and build on a better solution instead of fighting it
[07:53] <veegee> so bzr and mir are down the toilet now, waste of resources and time
[07:53] <veegee> it's not too late to migrate snap to nix
[07:55] <ogra_> what should we have done instead of bzr ? 
[07:56] <veegee> nothing lol, everything else that existed at the time was good enough 
[07:56] <ogra_> (note that it was created many years before git and all the other systems simply were not suitable for the needs we had)
[07:57] <veegee> But really that's in the past. The waste of energy now is snap
[07:57] <ogra_> snaps are ten years old ... 
[07:57] <veegee> Yeah that's how long they've been useless
[07:57] <ogra_> so they are kind of in the past already too 
[07:57] <ogra_> and they are a massive cash cow 
[07:57] <ogra_> why woudl we drop them ? 
[07:57] <veegee> are enterprise clients that stupid? 
[07:58] <ogra_> no, they understand the concept 
[07:58] <veegee> why would anyone pay for that when you have nix? 
[07:58] <veegee> no, enterprises are stupid
[07:58] <ogra_> having self-healing tinkerproof and secured software 
[07:58] <veegee> I've had the displeasre of working with meany 
[07:58] <ogra_> probably the wrong ones
[07:58] <veegee> they're _all_ the wrong ones
[07:58] <veegee> enterprises are run by business assholes
[07:59] <veegee> the decisions are made by the business assholes
[07:59] <ogra_> can you tame your language a little ? 
[07:59] <veegee> what's not tame about it? 
[08:00] <ogra_> calling anyone assholes ... we're trying to stay family-firnedly in here 
[08:00] <veegee> I'm saying enterprises are run by anus orifices '
[08:00] <veegee> that's a medical term
[08:00] <veegee> anus hole? 
[08:00] <ogra_> (there are kids around ... moms looking over their sholder woudlnt like your language=
[08:00] <veegee> the moms can lick my anus then
[08:00] <ogra_> geez, come on 
[08:00] <veegee> do you really think a kid is going to be traumatized by that word? 
[08:00] <ogra_> is it not possible to have a conversation with you weithout hearing swear words ? 
[08:01] <veegee> they hear it 10 times a day at school
[08:01] <ogra_> (are you like that in the real world too ?)
[08:01] <veegee> yes
[08:01] <veegee> I don't like bullshit
[08:01] <veegee> I'm straight up and get to the point
[08:01] <veegee> gen x is turning into the biggest bunch of pussies I've ever seen because of all this coddling
[08:02] <ogra_> well, and on the side you insult a good portion of listeners around you 
[08:02] <veegee> I only insulted business assholes
[08:02] <veegee> if they got insulted, good, that was the goal 
[08:02] <veegee> no business person is worth anything, ever
[08:02] <ogra_> right, there are 79 people here ... probably half of them work in some neterprise ... 
[08:02] <veegee> if the world went up in flames, I'd hunt them down and burn them for fat
[08:02] <ogra_> *enterprise
[08:02] <veegee> I"m not insulting the engineers
[08:02] <ogra_> sdo you keep calling half of the channel assholes 
[08:03] <veegee> I'm insulting the beancounters
[08:03] <ogra_> how do you know they are all engineers
[08:03] <veegee> I don't
[08:03] <ogra_> see
[08:03] <veegee> so if they're not, fuck em
[08:03] <veegee> nobody respects a bean counter
[08:03] <veegee> they have no value, they're good for nothing, they contribute zero to society
[08:04] <veegee> business people are the most useless people in society 
[08:04] <veegee> they're overpaid to wear a suit and tie
[08:04] <ogra_> well, please take that rant elsewhere ... these beyond a fruitful ubuntu discussion (which this channel is for)
[08:04] <ogra_> *that's beyond ...
[08:05] <veegee> Anyway, I'm pretty sure Nix was the oldest
[08:05] <ogra_> it wasnt ... 
[08:05] <ogra_> we had nix people attend a snapcraft summit when they still didnt have their OS out
[08:06] <veegee> you don't need their OS, you just need the package manager
[08:06] <ogra_> wiorking with us to get snaps working and supported in their upcoming OS
[08:06] <veegee> But I get it, snap was meant for proprietary stuff
[08:06] <ogra_> it did not exist in 2012-2014 when we did our evaluation 
[08:06] <ogra_> no, its not for proprietary stuff
[08:07] <veegee> it was meant for enterprises who wanted to lock down their systems with a local software server
[08:07] <ogra_> snaps where originally the successor of click packages ... which we had designed for the phone and wanted to replace 
[08:07] <ogra_> to allow anyone to create and package software with the least road-blocks .... 
[08:08] <ogra_> we had had a programme to help people to package their SW as debs before ... that was not scalable nor did it please people trying to get their SW to people
[08:08] <veegee> Ok sure, debs aren't easy to make
[08:08] <ogra_> (took months for the package reviews etc)
[08:09] <ogra_> with the phone we needed containerized and secured apps ... which was what click packages provided ... they were originally based on a lot of deb technology 
[08:09] <ogra_> but had their limits ... they were pretty much what flatpak is today 
[08:10] <ogra_> (i.e. not a proper package format, but rather a delivery mechanism for gui apps)
[08:11] <ogra_> btw, i personally looked at xdg-apps when we looked around before starting snaps ... (xdg-apps was what was renamed to flatpak later) ... it looked pretty much dead in the water, single maintainer project no community traction
[08:13] <veegee> Clément Lefèbvre (Linux Mint founder and project leader[84][85]) has written that Snap is biased and has a conflict of interest. The reasons he cited include it being governed by Canonical and locked to their store, and also that Snap works better on Ubuntu than on other distributions.
[08:13] <ogra_> nix was in early stages too 
[08:13] <veegee> Of course it's locked to their store
[08:13] <ogra_> it isnt 
[08:13] <veegee> did it change since that comment? 
[08:13] <ogra_> you can always "snap install --dangerous /path/t👋snap" .... it has always been like that 
[08:14] <ogra_> oops ... sorry ofr the emoji plugin acting up 
[08:14] <veegee> is it open source so I can delete that bullshit? 
[08:15] <ogra_> it is open source ....https://github.com/snapcore/snapd https://github.com/canonical/snapcraft
[08:15] <veegee> 1/10 the traction of nix based on github stars
[08:15] <ogra_> the store uses exclusivbely opensource technology as well ... (python, go, postgres, shell ... ngnix, gpg)
[08:15] <veegee> for whatever github stars is worth
[08:16] <veegee> honest question, why do you think that is? 
[08:16] <ogra_> i.e. the store is just glue code ... 
[08:16] <veegee> if it is truly open source, why isn't there much community traction? 
[08:16] <ogra_> yet it is what canonical makes a lot of money with 
[08:16] <veegee> canonical never had community traction in their own software for good reason
[08:16] <ogra_> huh ? 
[08:17] <veegee> I'm saying none of their original software had good community traction 
[08:17] <veegee> like Mir or whatever
[08:17] <ogra_> how long have you been around to say that ? 
[08:17] <veegee> I've been watching it since the beginning 
[08:17] <veegee> I mean that's nto the only thing
[08:17] <veegee> there's a bunch of other ubuntu-only little tools like network managers and such that aren't very good
[08:18] <veegee> but that's not a big deal to replace
[08:18] <veegee> but I can understand them needing money
[08:18] <veegee> if it lets them keep a decent server OS on a release schedule and fully open source, that's good for us all
[08:18] <ogra_> network managers ? ubuntu uses networkd and network-manager exclusively 
[08:18] <veegee> let the enterprise assholes eat the cost
[08:19] <veegee> I don't remember exactyl, sleep meds messing with my head right now
[08:19] <veegee> but they did have their own non-standard way of doing other system maintenance 
[08:20] <veegee> what I"m saying is, even though I think it's crap, if it lets canonical take money from the business assholes so they can keep providing stable server releases 
[08:20] <ogra_> if you mean netplan ? that was actually an ask from the enterprise developers to have a unified configuration system across cloud, real metal and desktops 
[08:20] <veegee> that's good at the end of the day
[08:20] <veegee> netplan yes
[08:20] <veegee> that piece of shit
[08:20] <veegee> that's what came to mind
[08:21] <ogra_> rightr, it was written for a purpose and on request ... like most ubuntu tools
[08:21] <veegee> and then forced on everyone else 
[08:21] <veegee> "enterprise developers" lol the most fucking stupid kind
[08:21] <ogra_> forced ? 
[08:21] <veegee> literally the lowest IQ devs
[08:21] <veegee> yes, I know I can remove it and do it any other way I want
[08:21] <veegee> but it came by default
[08:21] <veegee> that's the thing that was hooked into the system 
[08:22] <veegee> instead of being an option, it was the default
[08:22] <veegee> and that's annoying
[08:22] <ogra_> so if BMW decides to pick a different generator for their cars because it works better ... you call them "forcing" it on everyone ? 
[08:22] <veegee> that's completely different
[08:22] <ogra_> how would we support any software if we dont have a generic default ? 
[08:22] <veegee> this was requested by a small subset of idiots
[08:22] <ogra_> how would that scale ? 
[08:22] <veegee> you have it as an option package
[08:23] <veegee> the enterprise assholes can install what they want
[08:23] <veegee> everyone else who do things the proper way can keep doing it the proper way 
[08:23] <ogra_> thjis was surely not requested by a "small subset" of the fortune 500 customers we have 
[08:23] <veegee> you think developers from there are smart? 
[08:23] <veegee> lol they're the worst of the worst
[08:23] <veegee> they employ people who can barely speak english
[08:24] <veegee> they'd ask for the server to make them a sandwich 
[08:24] <veegee> they're so fucking dumb, I don't know how they're still entrenched writing shitty spaghetti code all these years
[08:24] <ogra_> so you dont use the internet then because it is run by idiots ? 
[08:24] <veegee> I don't use fortune500 websites
[08:24] <veegee> correct
[08:25] <ogra_> so no amazon,. google, facebook for you ? 
[08:25] <veegee> actually no to all 3
[08:25] <ogra_> you dont use hosting providers for your stuff ? 
[08:25] <veegee> those arent' the kind of people asking you to create netplan LOL
[08:25] <ogra_> err
[08:25] <veegee> oh hosting provider I thought you said ISP
[08:25] <veegee> no I colocate
[08:25] <ogra_> those were exasctly the kind of people asking for it 
[08:26] <ogra_> right, colocate, cloud etc ... thats what i mean by hosting provider
[08:26] <veegee> that's two different things
[08:26] <ogra_> usually under the same company
[08:26] <veegee> selling VMs is very different from colocate]
[08:26] <veegee> then it's the cloud dipshit team that must have asked you 
[08:26] <veegee> the kid that don't know jack shit about Linux or computers 
[08:27] <veegee> the ones using javascript for everything
[08:27] <veegee> the script kiddies
[08:27] <ogra_> mainly the MAAS users which is what drives colotation server maintenance ... but yes, also cloud people 
[08:27] <ogra_> as well as enterprises maintaining 5 digit sized desktop setups 
[08:27] <veegee> oh shit, i just remembered I'm flying at 9am and it's 4:30am
[08:28] <veegee> and by flying I mean piloting aircraft
[08:28] <veegee> as much as I'd love to shit on mediocre devs and enterprises
[08:28] <ogra_> well, then go to bed, people in here will be pleased to not read your insulting language anymore 
[08:28] <veegee> have to crash now
[08:28] <veegee> I'll be back
[08:28] <ogra_> thats what we fear 🙂
[08:28] <veegee> relax, it's only you and me even reading this
[08:28] <veegee> anyone who gets "offended" is a fucking pussy
[08:28] <ogra_> i doubt that 
[08:28] <veegee> and needs to grow a pair of balls
[08:29] <veegee> parents raised them like snowflakes
[08:29] <veegee> a good kick in the face is what they need
[08:29] <veegee> fucking pathetic
[08:29] <ogra_> its a matter of intelligence IMHO 
[08:29] <veegee> getting upset is the least intelligent thing
[08:29] <ogra_> (you can be harsh withjout insults if you are intelligent enough)
[08:29] <veegee> I choose to be harsh because I'm surrounded by snowflakes
[08:30] <veegee> little bitches who can't seem to accept how useless as shit they are 
[08:30] <ogra_> swaering is usually a symptom of low IQ of people that cant relly express themselves properly 
[08:30] <veegee> I can express myself properly and add the cursing
[08:30] <ogra_> but thats just my POV
[08:30] <veegee> I'll teach you a new one then
[08:30] <veegee> <3
[08:31] <ogra_> see, and i thought you type in a list of swear words and then add some content inbetween 
[08:31] <veegee> then maybe you'll stop respecting those 22 year old javascript script kiddies as your corporate overlords
[08:31] <ogra_> (at least it reads like that)
[08:31] <veegee> I get that canonical pays you
[08:31] <ogra_> yes, i didnt hide that, did i ?
[08:31] <veegee> and the business assholes are the ones that strike the deals that tell you to go ahead with the project
[08:32] <veegee> even if the project is technically shit
[08:32] <veegee> I get it, believe me
[08:32] <veegee> fuckin hell business assholes need to be executed
[08:32] <veegee> didn't that fake guy jesus have this story about exiling all the money changers and other business assholes? 
[08:33] <veegee> so if you subscribe to that christian bullshit too, then you know what i'm talking about
[08:33] <veegee> yes anyone who believes in god is a dipshit
[08:33] <veegee> it's the quivalent of believing in santa
[08:33] <veegee> does it offend you that your IQ is 50? 
[08:34] <veegee> anyway good night 
[08:53] <deadrom> So after xz-utils, what's the general take? Not all of the umpteenth-thousand packages are maintained by hordes of well known open src bigheads. There are probably dozens of little helper tool packages maintained by one overworked hobbyist, so how are distros kept clean?
[08:56] <lotuspsychje> there will always be exploits out there deadrom 
[08:56] <lotuspsychje> there's no magic red button to keep a distro clean
[08:57] <lotuspsychje> one can do the best possible security wise
[08:58] <deadrom> That's an oversimplification. Yes, you have to expect that occasionally an exploitable bug, a technical error that allows to gain access to a system. But here we are talking about an attack on open FOSS as a concept.
[08:59] <deadrom> s/open//
[14:19] <lotuspsychje> ruenoak reported this bug #2063521 this morning, for those who experience it
[14:19] -ubottu:#ubuntu-discuss- Bug 1717878 in gdm3 (Ubuntu) "gdm3/gdm-session-worker crashed with SIGTRAP logging 'GdmSession: no session desktop files installed, aborting...' from get_fallback_session_name from get_default_session_name from get_session_name from get_session_filename from gdm_session_is_wayland_session" [Medium, Triaged] [duplicate: 2063521] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1717878