[19:25] <SirSipe> Hey all! I've been evaluating Ubuntu Studio 24.04 since the beta release and there are still few issues, but nothing major. One thing that I haven't overcome is Discord. I can't get the latest Discord version launching at all. Any pointers on that? I've been evaluating using the Live version.
[19:28] <oerheks> discord snap in a live environment? https://snapcraft.io/install/discord/ubuntu
[19:29] <oerheks> not sure that runs fine..
[19:32] <SirSipe> damn I didn't even realize there's a snap
[19:32] <SirSipe> I've just downloaded it from discord page as .dep package
[19:32] <SirSipe> I'll test the snap later tonight
[19:36] <SirSipe> Keyboard layout doesn't work in release version either btw. This was issue in beta too, but in release you "can" choose e.g. English language with Finnish keyboard layout, but you still end up having only US keyboard layout. The tray doesn't work at all for changing it, only shows US. You have to go to Input Methods, install FI layout and remove US. Then it works.
[19:44] <SirSipe> tested already on VM, that snap package works. I wonder why I had to go with the .dep before...maybe there was some reason related to streaming or something.
[20:47] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: I'm willing to bet the discord .deb support hasn't caught-up with the Ubuntu release compatibility yet. However, with the snap availability, you don't have to worry about that.
[20:51] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: As for the keyboard layout issue, I'm going to chalk that one up to an ibus bug, which isn't specific to Ubuntu Studio but more the overarching Ubuntu distribution. Honestly, I don't know how to resolve that one, so open a Konsole window and type `ubuntu-bug ibus`. That should guide you through filing a bug.
[21:02] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: ok, thanks.
[21:06] <SirSipe> I'm very much into professional audio stuff using Ubuntu Studio. I've had my doubts about Pipewire whether it's actually mature enough for LTS release. So far so good but while I now pretty much have solved my basic use cases, I really haven't tested for stability yet. I know stability was an issue in earlier Pipewire versions.
[21:06] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: The PipeWire included in 24.04 LTS is 1.0, so you tell me what that implies.
[21:08] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Release notes state that it's now ready for professional use. Also PA+Jack configuration has been dropped from support
[21:08] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: I demonstrated using PipeWire for live production in a 90-minute session without issues, flawlessly, in a session of about 20-50 people watching in Riga, Latvia at Ubuntu Summit 2023. It can be done.
[21:09] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: I wrote the release notes.
[21:09] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Sure, I can also do many use cases with it nicely. But can I do them all using stable environment in my studio? That's another thing. Maybe, maybe not.
[21:10] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: I also mastered a few songs for some various people using it. I'm not just the lead, I'm also a user.
[21:10] <Eickmeyer> I've been an audio engineer for 30 years.
[21:10] <Eickmeyer> I know what I'm talking about.
[21:12] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: I don't want to bash PW. It's definitely an upgrade. Maturity vs jack is obviously not on par, but that's expected. This is a good way to get it mature, when people are forced to use it. But it doesn't change the facts that it doesn't come without issues still.
[21:12] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Perhaps you didn't read the part where the PW-JACK piece can be disabled to run pure JACK?
[21:13] <Eickmeyer> I mean, it's flexible. But I'll stake my life on it because I've done this in a professional setting already.
[21:14] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Yes I did and that's good otherwise except that newcomers must then use qjackctl instead of Studio Controls to set things up. Ease of setup is definitely a bit thing
[21:14] <SirSipe> *big
[21:15] <Eickmeyer> Ok. But don't come in here questioning whether or not what's written in the release announcement is true because 1) It wasn't a unilateral decision (I have another engineer who I consult with), and 2) I've been doing audio engineering for 30 years; I'm no veteran and I know what I'm talking about. You don't get to say what's ready for professional
[21:16] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Again, I have nothing against PW. It took me a while to figure out how I can do my basic setup with it. What I want do demostrate for others is simplicity and easy of setup because people still find it extremely hard to even try other than Win/Mac for studio usage.
[21:16] <Eickmeyer> and what's not.
[21:16] <Eickmeyer> *I'm no amateur
[21:17] <Eickmeyer> RE: Qjackctl: That's why we say it's for advanced users
[21:18] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: I think there's a bit of miscommunication here. I wasn't criticizing you or misreading release notes, nor I have any belief you wouldn't know what you are talking about.
[21:19] <Eickmeyer> Ok. Well, I've been testing PW 1.0 since it came out, and it's solid. I haven't been able to break it.
[21:19] <Eickmeyer> Furthermore, every Ubuntu flavor is running it.
[21:19] <Eickmeyer> Not necessarily the JACK setup, but that's what I haven't been able to break.
[21:20] <SirSipe> What I want to do is to make the entry to Ubuntu Studio -for especially those millions of home studio guitarists- super simple. It's still pretty mystical and especially the fact that things like Neural Amp Modeler are now available for it makes a huge difference
[21:21] <Eickmeyer> That's my goal too. That's why Patchance is right in the taskbar by default; so one can just patch stuff right away, and it doesn't matter if it's a JACK app or what kind of app it is anymore.
[21:22] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: execpt if you have more that one audio interface. Then you also need to setup the default device from PA controls as otherwise every single time you pause a youtube backing track, it connects to the wrong device.
[21:22] <Eickmeyer> Plug the guitar directly into the computer, throw it through an amp modeler, and listen to it through your headphones.
[21:23] <Eickmeyer> Ah! Then what you need is to turn on the dummy audio device in Ubuntu Studio Audio Configuration, set that as the default using the audio widget in the taskbar, and then send YouTube to where it's supposed to go.
[21:24] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Also if you start e.g. carla for the first time using save template, all connections between all loaded plugins are lost. I guess PW does some initialization when first jack client appears and this probably causes it. Just a guess though
[21:24] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Thanks! I'll use that probably when I do my tutorials
[21:25] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Oh, that's a problem with Carla. Send issues to https//github.com/falktx/Carla
[21:26] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: That was precisely why I made the Dummy Audio Device in Ubuntu Studio Audio Configuration. I'm still working on documentation, but I do most development-related work Monday-Friday.
[21:29] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: I think the dummy device solves actually quite many issues for me. I  always have carla running and I use PA bridge (actually two) that never goes direcly to any ouputs. I was struggling a lot with the fact that PW wanted to always auto-connect to some first input pair of some first device. These are the kind of things I mean when talking about making the entry simple and easy. It's really not there yet, hence the 
[21:29] <SirSipe> need for loads of tutorials
[21:32] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Right, that was the reason I made it. In fact, per the PW developer, he suggested making one by hand, and that inspired me to make one using a GUI which makes it easy for everyone. My philosophy is that if it can only be done with the command line, then a way needs to be made for it to be done with a GUI.
[21:32] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: for instance, my other audio device is Scarlett 18i20. I have configured it direct out without internal mixing (can be only done using the windows app). It's has two headphone outpus that are at outputs 6-7 and 8-9. So without routing the capture of 0-1 to both of the headphones, I actually wasn't able to use headphones at all to play along youtube videos.  
[21:34] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: One workaround you might use for your Carla issue is using RaySession. It can save all of your PipeWire connections as if they were JACK connections and remember them the next time you start the session.
[21:34] <Eickmeyer> Its interface is identical to Patchance.
[21:36] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: I actually have that issue because I'm working on Makefile based Ubuntu Studio "Essentials Package" for guitarist. In addition to installing NAM, NAM models, Impulse Responses and GxPlugins, it also creates demo signal chains using as carla presets. First launch always fails because of that isssue I decribed before, but second one works. My script also figures out correct audio device to use and replaces that in the 
[21:36] <SirSipe> carla presets so it's true "make & play" :D
[21:37] <Eickmeyer> I see.
[21:38] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: but I'm sure if it's about some jack initialization related issue, I can probably workaround that by initializing some dummy client for a second or so. Haven't really looked too much into that
[21:39] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: BTW, I always recommend against Scarlett interfaces because of their proprietary Windows app for some features. Believe it or not, I've recommended Behringer interfaces, especially the ones with the Midas preamps, since they're class-comliant and don't require drivers or extra software of any kind. In fact, I know a band, Lorenzo's Music,
[21:40] <Eickmeyer> who does all of their recording on Behringer interfaces and they sound amazing.
[21:40] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Btw here's my channel: https://www.youtube.com/@sudometalstudio nothing big or anything but I'm quite committed to learn all this stuff :)
[21:40] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Dude, you have no idea how much of a metal head I am. :D
[21:42] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Nice! If you do metal on Ubuntu, I'd love to know more about your process etc 
[21:44] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Sadly, I don't. Most of my mixing is church contemporary these days. Not that I haven't done metal, but that was quite some time ago. Though, when I'm given an electric with a bit of crunch in the band, they tend to get a little extra "oomph" if you know what I mean. ;)
[21:47] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Sure :) But yea, I'm still in process of learning everything PipeWire and once I feel I have the perfect and simple explanation for everything, then I'll make a video about it.
[21:48] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Sounds great. Let me know about it either here or on Matrix (link in the topic). It sounds to me like that dummy audio device was key.
[21:48] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: BTW, you should reallly consider adding the Mike Oliphants LV2 wrapped Neural Amp Modeler to repos, with Brummer10's GUI. It's the best thing ever happened to Linux guitarists.
[21:49] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: this one: https://github.com/mikeoliphant/neural-amp-modeler-lv2
[21:49] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: and here's the GUI: https://github.com/brummer10/neural-amp-modeler-ui
[21:50] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Yeah, these past two cycles were hectic. First one with PipeWire and figuring out how to implement, and the second one with implementing an entirely new installer. This next one we're having to transition to Plasma 6, so it is going to be hectic as well, but sadly, packaging plugins has had to take a back seat, but I'll throw those two on
[21:50] <Eickmeyer> my list.
[21:50] <Eickmeyer> So, it's been a hell of a year.
[21:53] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Great! And now that I'm writing to Santa, please also upgrade Hydrogen. Current version has a nasty bug that prevents using Midi input for it. Luckily it can be worked around quite easily (https://github.com/hydrogen-music/hydrogen/issues/1751)
[21:53] -ubottu:#ubuntustudio- Issue 1751 in hydrogen-music/hydrogen "MIDI note events not played" [Closed]
[21:56] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: Yeah, Hydrogen is one of those packages where I'm at the mercy of Debian as it's automatically synced from there until Feature Freeze, which happened in February and for the next release, happens at the end of August. (if you don't see an "ubuntu" in the package version number, it didn't originate here but from Debian). So, sadly, that's
[21:56] <Eickmeyer> where if something happens, I might be able to backport it to the LTS, but that's assuming it lands in oracular (future 24.10) first.
[22:06] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Do you know if PW can be made work properly also under VirtualBox? PW performance under VirtualBox is...not there at all :D PA-Jack configuration actually works very well so it's definitely PW related. 
[22:06] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: I wouldn't even trust JACK under VirtualBox. :P
[22:06] <Eickmeyer> I wouldn't even trust PulseAudio under VirtualBox.
[22:06] <Eickmeyer> Even ALSA is flaky under VirtualBox.
[22:07] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: I can actually run full setup and session under Virtual Box using PA-Jack configuration :D Works like a charm :D
[22:07] <Eickmeyer> Well, yeah, but the performance.... THE PERFORMANCE.... 
[22:07] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: 128 buffer size! Latency under 3ms :)
[22:08] <Eickmeyer> Actually, that's how I do the .iso testing of 22.04 LTS when we have a point release.
[22:08] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Aaand I have proof! Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZBtnQEDdQU
[22:08] <Eickmeyer> No no no. I have no doubt, I was just joking around.
[22:10] <Eickmeyer> I've had PW work properly under VirtualBox. In fact, that's how I tested the .iso images before beta. Before release I tested in VirtualBox and on real hardware. It can be done. Let me put it this way: if you run the Ubuntu Studio 24.04 LTS .iso image inside VirtualBox and you hear the sound when it first boots, it's working.
[22:12] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: It's working yes, but PW also defauts to 1024 buffer size which is completely unusable for live performance i.e. when using virtual amp. 256 is the absolute minimun but fast stuff and drums really require 128.
[22:13] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: So, I only use VirtualBox when testing the .iso images, I don't really test it for actual usability like that. Give it a shot. Ubuntu Studio Audio Configuration is where to go to set the buffer.
[22:13] <SirSipe> And I can do 128 easily with PA-Jack configuration under VirtualBox but not even 256 using PW.
[22:14] <Eickmeyer> It also depends on what the host machine is doing, so keep that in mind.
[22:14] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: yea I know. My makefile script actually uses the pw commandline to setup "quantum" for playable level
[22:15] <Eickmeyer> Right, but bear in mind, the configurations that Ubuntu Studio Audio Configuration sets get reset every time you log-in.
[22:15] <Eickmeyer> Meaning, whatever you set in that are what gets set every time you log-in.
[22:15] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: now THAT I didn't know. Goddamn, why is that? Why would anyone what to setup e.g. buffer size after every reboot?
[22:16] <SirSipe> Patchance also doesn't work for that btw. It stays for ~5s and then changes back to 1024
[22:17] <Eickmeyer> Right, because the quantum is controlled by PipeWire's meta. That can be controlled by Ubuntu Studio Audio Configuration.
[22:17] <Eickmeyer> So you can for instance set it to 128 and 48000 and it will be that next time you log-in.
[22:18] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: oh but isn't that actually using pw-cli or pw-jack-setup or something similar to change the quantum? That's what I'm using
[22:20] <Eickmeyer> No, it's not. It used to be that it would set a system variable, but then that changed between versions. Now it sets it via pw-metatdata, which is what the PipeWire developer prescribed.
[22:20] <SirSipe> Ok, thanks! I'll need to take a deeper dive on that. 
[22:21] <Eickmeyer> The code is in /usr/bin/ubuntustudio-audio-config if you want to inspect that.
[22:21] <SirSipe> I guess I'm at the point that testing with live is no longer an option. But I don't want to upgrade my production computer yet so I'll upgrade my old one first 
[22:22] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. Sadly, it's all theory until put into practice.
[22:23] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Have you btw tested any persistent lives? I think there was some big change in previous LTS which made persistense break in many tools at least for a while
[22:23] <SirSipe> mkusb was the only one working last time I tested some year(s) ago
[22:24] <SirSipe> but e.g. Rufus for windows didn't work at all
[22:25] <Eickmeyer> We have a supported method of making a live USB that's linked on the website and in the release notes that's a tutorial on ubuntu.com that also has a link to making one with Windows, but I forgot what tool it uses.
[22:25] <Eickmeyer> Let me see what the factoid says (if it says one)
[22:25] <Eickmeyer> !liveusb
[22:25] <Eickmeyer> Aha!
[22:26] <Eickmeyer> Another option is having a second USB stick and simply installing to that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[22:27] <SirSipe> Or boot "toram" and install on the same USB :)
[22:30] <SirSipe> Hmm... so UNetbootin is still the recommended method. That's a bit odd considering that every single tutorial I've seen uses something else. But I guess persistense is not considerent in many of the tutorials I've seen.
[22:32] <Eickmeyer> I think BalenaEtcher is probably the better one at this point, but I don't know. I use Ventoy for the most part.
[22:33] <Eickmeyer> SirSipe: That persistent USB article was last edited some 7 years ago. 💀
[22:34] <SirSipe> Eickmeyer: Yup, yet it's the second thing everyone wants after trying with live :)
[22:34] <Eickmeyer> The factoid bot isn't always kept up-to-date; it's shared by all the Ubuntu channels.
[22:36] <SirSipe> I actually said in one of may videos that no one should bother with persistent live. Just go with dual boot. People especially in audio world must be able to keep their already established setup alive even if they are a bit linux-curious (usually for performance reasons)
[22:36] <Eickmeyer> I was about to say just that. Space is so cheap anymore that it's not hard to carve out a partition.
[22:37] <SirSipe> Yes, but it's a whole another stress point for those that are not that tech-savvy. I'm actually very glad how the new installer looked. It was very clear and simple and had a clear option to install side-by-side
[22:38] <SirSipe> maybe it could stress even more that the existing system will not be touched at all, just some disk space reserved.
[22:45] <Eickmeyer> That's something you can add at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-desktop-provision/+filebug
[22:45] <Eickmeyer> It'll be given the priority of "Wishlist", but that's still OK.