[22:24] Hi [22:25] hello. [22:25] sorry tomreyn - I would have used this channel sooner had I known [22:26] but then is that a channelop anyway? [22:26] tpanarch1st: are you familiar with channel "topics"? most irc clients show those above the chat [22:27] yeah, but this channel wasn't detailed there :) [22:27] at least above but I didn't do "/topic" [22:27] (I forgot about that!) [22:27] the one in #ubuntu contains information on guidelines we apply on conversations in #ubuntu [22:28] the one here also points out what this channel is for [22:29] it is generally considered a good approach to read up on this information befor getting involved so you can choose to fit in with expectations regulars may have [22:29] so this takes me directly back to what I said in #ubuntu - I couldn't get any support from Linux Mint -> it's a regular problem, the standard of intellect in there time and time again is people that don't have a clue. I've had to revert back to Linux itself multiple times. The only reason that I came to #ubuntu was because i'm aware that the inclusion of Timeshift derives from Ubuntu in the first place. [22:31] no I stand firm on this point. The ubuntu community, and indeed the wider GNU community should try and help each other. The over-stating of a rule for no purpose other than the rule's sake was completely arbitrary, at odds with a community ethos dating back over 30 years and over-authoritarian - demonstrated in being told "you've been told before". Who the hell are they to tell me anything? [22:32] whilst I respect there is a chance of difference in functionality, a general idea on Timeshift - something that derives from Ubuntu in the first place is not speaking a "foreign" language. [22:32] i'd totally respect if it was something that Ubuntu didn't use. [22:33] and I did document how i'd tried their channel first too [22:35] on the one hand, i would prefer to give this a longer reply. on the other hand, this also looks like a less serious issue to me so far. and i like spending my spare time on non 'ops' stuff a lot more. so i'll answer quite shortly. [22:36] i already explained how there are some guidelines on what happens and doesn't happen in #ubuntu, and where you can learn about those. did you read up on this, yet? [22:36] hang on in a minute, is this a fascist channel? [22:36] or is there any democracy? [22:37] i don't see what would make you say this. apparently you have not read the guidelines yet. please make sure you do. [22:38] so. am I not entitled to a say in what your rules are? [22:38] I could read your rules - i'm a lawyer. [22:38] but I guarantee we'd spend more time debating the holes in it. [22:40] i'm not interested in taking part in a dicussion of the ubuntu irc guidelines over here, and now. there are better places for this, as indicated. [22:41] so why did you point me here in the first place then? [22:42] we generally don't support non ubuntu things here, this is also documented on the urls listed in the topic. you're welcome to read up on this in more detail than i can provide here right now. if you have more questions on this, you're welcome to ask in #ubuntu-ops (please do leave the channel when you're done, though) [22:42] (i'd like to keep this meta discussion out of the channel, so we can do support here) [22:43] this is from #ubuntu [22:43] i can now respond to your original question or you can continue bringin up more process questions which will obviously delay the other thing [22:47] so, about getting support with timeshift in #ubuntu. sure, you can always ask if you can get support with something within the scope discussed in the guidelines. you'll notice that many of the regulars won't want to spend their time on doing volunteer support for people who actually use different linux distros. i find this very understandable. after all, this channel (#ubuntu) is about ubuntu support [22:47] tomreyn: I feel what i'm bringing up is more important than me by a million miles. I'm not new to Linux but I remember being so. Let's at least start with some common ground please - Ubuntu - and indeed Mint are very popular amongst new users. Then, the Linux community has always been keen to recruit new members. [22:48] to reply to your last comment, you've fed through what you've said but how about feeding through what i've said - on balance. [22:48] I feel we are playing to an audience aren't we tomreyn [22:48] the fact that you could not get help with a topic in a different channel does not ensure that you can receive it in a given other place, even if that is a support place for the distro where this software was once introduced. [22:48] I revert you to my point above [22:49] let's have sopme proper context: [22:49] tpanarch1st: most people who spend their volunteer time to provide support here want to support users of this very distro, or those about to move to it, only. i'm sure you can respect that they may choose whom and what they want to support. [22:49] * their time to provide volunteer support here [22:49] oh absolutely tomreyn, I totally respect that. Following that logic, if someone doesn't want to help, then don't reply in such a way as other's who want to assist (and I would be one that would support someone) don't feel comfortable. [22:50] i think you are refering to the responses leftyfb provided now [22:50] that wasn't directed at you tomreyn - i'm sorry I didn't make that more clear, it was the original reply [22:51] yes, I think I bought in some confusion there - sorry about that [22:51] yeah my issue was with leftyfb - never you [22:51] I also pointed to his use of inflamatory language (which incidentally, is against your channel rules) [22:52] I say his - I should say their* apologies. [22:53] for reference: tpanarch1st: You've been told this before. [22:53] okay, looks liek we'Re approach ing the actual issue, this should save some time, nice. [22:54] now, i've read your rules, and nowhere in there is there an issue a) with asking about a distro that derives from Ubuntu b) it appears that deriving distros are actually provided for owing to the ability to take escalations to the channel you recommended - #ubuntu-irc [22:54] i don't know whether leftyfb's statement is true or not. i seem to remember that you got klined a couple times in the past, but this is from memory, and could be wrong. and isn't necessarily related to #ubuntu [22:55] oh i kick ass anywhere where there's fascism - I think it's awful for newbies. I was a newbie once. I don't like people who are power hungry - i'm allergic. [22:55] power is to be used wisely. [22:55] pointing out that you have previously been told something does not neccessarily seem like inflammatory language to me. [22:55] OK - is he a chanop? Owing to his absence here, I suspect not and also doing a whois didn't suggest it [22:56] you can run this command to list access rights on a channel: /msg chanserv flags #channel [22:57] some of these permissions can be inherited from other channels [22:57] but this would be listed in the flags, too [22:58] ok - thanks for that - so - essentially - no - they are not. So, I don't know how long you've been on Freenode/Libera -> people that overstate themselves fear contradicting others. [22:58] i don't think leftyfb is currently an op in #ubuntu [22:58] no, thankfully they ar enot. [22:59] but equally, they had no right to behave as if they were. [22:59] I wouldn't dream of going into a channel and telling people what they could and couldn't ask. I'd leave that to the ops [22:59] your rules don't ban what I asked. [23:01] and they don't ban to tell someone what the guidelines are, which i think is mostly what leftyfb did. they could have done it in a nicer tone. [23:02] or not at all, but i also appreciate regulars occasionally helping out with explaining the channel topic and guidelines to non regulars [23:02] which is what i feel has taken place here [23:03] tomreyn: they had no right to over-assert themselves in such a way as I actually thought, and believe me leftfb thought that they would be interpreted as, a channel op. It has the affect of shutting down anybody else that wants to contribute. Channel Ops exist for a reason, acting as if you are one when you aren't defeats the object, upsets the balance and the mood within the channel. [23:03] as soon as he said "you've been told before" - that wasn't explaining the rules. That was over-asserting themselves - and - bullying, [23:04] and - problematically for you, insinuating they were in a position of authority that they were not, [23:05] moreover - let's not forget - I had said that i'd already been to Linux Mint first and got nowhere. [23:05] i appreciate the pointer but i think i can best tell what's an issue for myself and what isn't [23:05] they enjoyed that. [23:06] tomreyn: you as a channelop - not you personally. [23:06] or for channelops more widely. [23:06] leftyfb: i'll use this opportunity to say: please try to be more kind to people seeking support in #ubuntu in the future. you have a tendency to be a bit rough. [23:07] tpanarch1st, leftyfb: with this said, are we done here? [23:07] tomreyn: appreciate this -> but guidelines shouldn't be imposed as rules either. The rules that you spent quite a lot of time emphasising in fact make my point for me. [23:08] and anyway, where are said guidelines, i've read the link.... [23:09] My role as a regular in the Ubuntu IRC community is to help support users of Ubuntu. The channel topic and long-standing community guidelines are clear about the support scope: Ubuntu and its official flavors only. Linux Mint is not Ubuntu. It is a separate distribution with its own changes, tools, update mechanisms, and community. As such, support for it rightly belongs in #linuxmint or more general channels like #linux, which I even [23:09] suggested. [23:09] You're not entitled to override the guidelines just because you didn’t get help elsewhere. We're volunteers. Telling us we're "plain awkward" or accusing us of being "fascist" because we don’t bend rules for you is both inappropriate and unproductive. You implied I acted like a channel operator. I did not claim that role. I shared existing policy in plain language to avoid further confusion — a courtesy to everyone else who is [23:09] there for Ubuntu help. Saying “you’ve been told this before” isn’t inflammatory; it’s a factual statement based on your history. [23:10] tpanarch1st: as mentioned before, i am not going to discuss the content or application of the Ubuntu IRC Guidelines (https://ubottu.com/y/gl) -first link in the /topic of #ubuntu, here, or now. if you need to challenge my conduct, you can do so as indicated on the document. [23:11] long-standing community guidelines are clear about the support scope: Ubuntu and its official flavors only. - Where is this please? [23:11] in the topic [23:11] "Official Ubuntu Support Channel | IRC Guidelines: https://ubottu.com/y/gl | #ubuntu supports Ubuntu and official flavors; versions 25.04, 24.10, 22.04, 20.04. #ubuntu-next for 25.10 | Unofficial derivatives: Use your distro's support channel, not here | IRC info: https://ubottu.com/y/irc | Pastes to https://bpa.st | Download: https://ubottu.com/y/dl" [23:12] tpanarch1st: i had previously pointed this out to you twice. and you responded that you had read them? [23:12] OK, so you've decided to add that in. I read the topic at the top of Hexchat before and I see the addition. Yes, I will challenge the addition of that but don't pass it off as there before when it wasn't. [23:13] and yes I have tomreyn - for example, All Ubuntu IRC channels are visited by people whose ages vary, and whose tolerances of language and subject choice vary equally as much. Please be considerate of everyone and keep all the Ubuntu IRC channels friendly places for everyone. This means that you should avoid any language which may be considered offensive, including... [23:14] and... #ubuntu-irc [23:14] The #ubuntu-irc channel is similar to the #ubuntu-ops channel, except that it is for discussing issues relating to any channels relating to the recognised Ubuntu derivatives that are not core channels. This may include discussing bans or other matters relating to IRC. [23:14] Ubuntu derivitives - surely include Linux Mint. [23:14] so why have a channel for discussing that if it is banned??? [23:15] can we stick to the original issue for now, please? [23:15] tomreyn: you can't use the link to the rules and then not like it when the same document is used to make a counter-argument for the benefit of the community [23:18] tpanarch1st: can you please let me know if anything regarding leftyfb's responses to you when entering #ubuntu has not yet been addressed, and if so what exactly? [23:19] tpanarch1st: to be clear, the topic format really hasn't changed in at least 8 years. So nothing was added in [23:19] "2017 Oct 19 10:22:23 * ChanServ has changed the topic to: Official Ubuntu Support Channel | IRC Guidelines: http://ubottu.com/y/gl | This channel supports Ubuntu and its official flavors; versions 14.04, 16.04, 17.04, and 17.10 | Unofficial derivatives: use your distro's support channel, not here. | IRC info: http://ubottu.com/y/irc | Pastes to http://paste.ubuntu.com/ | Download: http://ubottu.com/y/dl | PM spam? /mode yournickhere +R" [23:20] again, let's please not discuss the guidelines or whether they are applicable as rules, here and now. this can be done elsewhere, as indicated. [23:20] yeah a) his comments break the rules - as documented within the extract above. b) He's not a channelop and it's not his place to overstate themselves such that other people don't feel welcome to comment on a question clearly accommodated by the rules by virtue of there being a room dedicated to discussions about issues arising from Ubuntu Derivitives - also - to point out - more widely - the channel topic that you've added during this [23:20] conversation in this channel - and not before this conversation - is in breach of your own rules. [23:21] as you've linked me to. [23:21] no topics were changed [23:21] for the avoidance of doubt - that link is - https://ubottu.com/y/irc [23:22] i'm saying that the topic was changed - and - in any event - is in breach of the rules. [23:22] the topic was not changed [23:22] yeah, this didn't happen [23:22] The last time the topic was changed: 2025 Apr 29 05:33:10 * tomreyn has changed the topic to: Official Ubuntu Support Channel | IRC Guidelines: https://ubottu.com/y/gl | #ubuntu supports Ubuntu and official flavors; versions 25.04, 24.10, 22.04, 20.04. #ubuntu-next for 25.10 | Unofficial derivatives: Use your distro's support channel, not here | IRC info: https://ubottu.com/y/irc | Pastes to https://bpa.st | Download: https://ubottu.com/y/dl [23:23] neither the channel topics here or in #ubuntu changed recently, nor diud the guidelines wiki page change [23:23] i don'T see why you'd claim this. [23:23] correction - the link that shows that the topic itself breaks the rules is at https://ubottu.com/y/gl [23:24] tpanarch1st: the official logs for all of 2025/04/05: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/latest/%23ubuntu.txt [23:24] the issue is "Unofficial derivatives: Use your distro's support channel, not here" [23:24] this is nonsense [23:24] sorry for my expression, but this is just not true. [23:25] to the other point: i am convinced that i have handled this situation that made you feel unwelcome with my address to leftyfb above. [23:25] the rules say - "#ubuntu-irc The #ubuntu-irc channel is similar to the #ubuntu-ops channel, except that it is for discussing issues relating to any channels relating to the recognised Ubuntu derivatives that are not core channels. This may include discussing bans or other matters relating to IRC." - Which itself infers that Ubuntu recognises derivatives - and - by recognising = within the context of IRC because the point would be useless and [23:25] non sensical otherwise [23:28] tpanarch1st: how is the purpose of channel #ubuntu-irc relevant to the moderation of the issue you took with leftfb's response to your question in #ubuntu? i don't see that. [23:28] because the ubuntu-irc channel itself is documented within the rules that you've quoted. [23:29] ok. last time: we are not discussing the guidelines. not here, not now. [23:29] and itself infers that ubuntu derivative discussion is in fact within the rules of what should be allowed, what shouldn't be banned within the topic, which shouldn't be attacked by channelops - and - particularly people fancying themselves as a channelop when they aren't even one. [23:30] oh ok tomreyn so, here we are in the ubuntu-ops channel, governed by the rules that you, yourself provided, and you don't want to discuss the rules (that you randomly now describe as "guidelines") [23:31] you were so enthusiastic about me reading those that you used the fact that you thought I hadn't against me. I also warned we would likely spend more time discussing the issues with those rules but then you referred me to them again. [23:31] tpanarch1st: you do understand there is a pretty clear difference between the Ubuntu support channel; #ubuntu and the channel having nothing to do with ubuntu support that is called #ubuntu-irc right? [23:32] ah, good point, this could be another misconception on tpanarch1st's part. [23:32] well, if that was the case leftyfb why the goodness would it be within the rules referred to by tomreyn [23:32] they are about multiple channels [23:32] none of what happened tonight seems to be related to channel #ubuntu-irc [23:32] tomreyn: it's misconception of the rules by you tomreyn - you referred to them, you emphasised them and you kept redirecting to them - when - it suited - you. # [23:34] i've made my point, I will escalate my complaint for the sake of newbies and, for the avoidance of doubt, my friend (who I am helping) and I, resolved the problem long before leftyfb's comment and we now have a working Linux Mint system. [23:35] we'll move elsewhere other than Ubuntu. Sounds like Canonical's involvement is causing serious issues. [23:35] - they need better Lawyers. [23:35] i suggest not crossing that line. [23:35] i'll say what I like without caring less el [23:36] you can do that elsewhere. [23:36] thank you for your late input el [23:36] anything of use to add? [23:37] considering you've thrown around accusations of bad faith and are now mentioning the L word, i very much doubt that you'd let anything be of use. [23:37] I also suspect - whilst I'm at it that broken upgraders and faults with timeshifts that profess to back everything up are likely to be an issue as high as Ubuntu given these issues and that this is really why the issue was not welcomed. [23:37] you may go now. [23:38] I didn't need you to welcome me and you are certainly not welcome to tell me whether I can speak or not. Keyboard warriering is not helpful. I appreciate you obviously work for Canonical - take that as direct feedback. [23:38] this conversation is over. [23:39] fascist. [23:39] you need better arguments [23:39] yeah - staff - thought as much, [23:39] noib [23:39] nob* [23:39] huh