/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2018/07/21/#ubports.txt

ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @UniversalSuperBox, :D01:26
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @mateosalta, yet another great lead, thank you for remembering and sharing !01:27
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @padraic7a, well I want to, and I will, just that whatever was made at work I wont be sharing immediately. But I still have quite a bit of things to share in the pipeline. I havent touched my blog for months now, but I'm  going to gwt bacl to it over next 2 weeks01:29
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @Fuseteam, just FYI there now is a term for that I see being tossed around: BYOD, for Bring Your Own Device. Much like what Samsung showed with S8 and Dex dock, when they run Ubuntu from the phone onto the external monitor: https://youtu.be/XPFemeuCTYg01:32
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> when I saw it first time I left them a comment:01:33
ubptgbot<dohbee> BYOD is about employees bringing their own hardware into the office, not about convergence01:33
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/deQCRalv.png01:34
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> because they thought they had probably invented IDE on a pho e :D01:34
ubptgbot<dohbee> huh?01:34
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, thanks for clarifying, I didnt know, I saw it used on the Internet with the convergence01:34
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> because convergence fits into BYOD market. Just that now only I know from you that BYOD was already a thing before. thanks01:35
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> [Edit] because they thought they had probably invented IDE on a phone :D01:35
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, watch the vid, they present dex and they pitch at the audience of anyone else had IDE in their phone, like if they thought nobody had already came up with it before01:36
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, oh, i thought you were mocking canonical with that statement, given you had just posted the screen grab of your comments01:37
ubptgbot<dohbee> i was going to say, canonical was in fact working on shipping the IDE for developing the apps, directly on the phone as well01:38
ubptgbot<dohbee> but granted, there still are no properly converged IDEs01:38
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> I want to ask a question related to the dpi setting under xmir. As I understand it is a hard-fixed value of 96 in the source code. I dont hv source now to refer to, I just remember reading this on the Internet. So do any of you know if there is maybe just a source code file of few where I can just replace that value and rwcompi01:41
ubptgbotle with, say, a fixed value of 180dpi? just so I could end up seeing everything 2x bigger than currently under xmir?01:41
ubptgbot<dohbee> you don't need to change the source code01:42
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, please share more01:42
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/13301:43
ubptgbot<K31j0> Is that DeX thing even native?01:44
ubptgbot<K31j0> what is this01:44
ubptgbot<K31j0> is it a hypervisor01:44
ubptgbot<K31j0> or the container magic01:44
ubptgbot<dohbee> @K31j0, it's a chroot01:44
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> alright, so first thank you. However this is just dpi for fonts. Please understand that I am looking for knowledge on how to alter the dpi setting for the entire graphical stack not just for fonts. I want every aspect of ui to be scaled differently. And I am asking about the knowledge, anyone?01:44
ubptgbot<dohbee> it's basically the same type of linux chroot people have been doing on android for years01:45
ubptgbot<K31j0> @dohbee, Just marketed01:45
ubptgbot<K31j0> and some people are like "wow"01:45
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> if anyone cares, here's why: even though i can enlarge fo ts the scrollbars will still be tiny. The checkboxes will still be tiny. and many other things, all that doesnt adapt to font size.01:45
ubptgbot<K31j0> I don't understand why people are so used to eating shit these days01:45
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, well if xmir takes same options as normal X server, i suppose there maybe one way to specify the DPI through it01:46
ubptgbot<dohbee> or you can set the appropriate value for the Xresources perhaps01:46
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @K31j0, well DeX is the dock. A brilliant one too: phone gets charging, external kbd/mouse, Ethernet port, speakers and hdmi all at once. And then there is an app that runs Ubuntu using chroot.01:47
ubptgbot<K31j0> geez I'm so pissed right now01:48
ubptgbot<dohbee> @K31j0, well, the samsung thing brings all the hardware together, now that usb-c lets more stuff go through the port at once01:48
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, appreciate, thanks, i will google this. If anyone has more knowledge, also please share.01:48
ubptgbot<K31j0> this is like the 10th attempt to fix modem01:48
ubptgbot<K31j0> and when it was patched onto the live OS it was working01:48
ubptgbot<K31j0> but when integrated into the zip it doesn't work01:48
ubptgbot<K31j0> somentimes I just think of leaving it all to rot and using N900 as my main phone01:49
ubptgbot<K31j0> it's not great, but it's better to have something with physical keyboard and software that works and is linux instead of a thing that can't even bring devfs nodes up right01:50
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, also xmir is deprecated and will be going away hopefully soon, replaced by using Xwayland instead01:50
ubptgbot<mateosalta> @KrisJacewicz, I remember something, but when I tried it needed hardware exceleration01:51
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, in that case, do you know if xwayland is going to report the actual dpi value of the display?01:51
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> [Edit] if anyone cares, here's why: even though i can enlarge fonts the scrollbars will still be tiny. The checkboxes will still be tiny. and many other things, all that doesnt adapt to font size.01:52
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, what does `xdpyinfo | grep resolution` report if you run it inside a terminal under xmir?01:52
ubptgbot<dohbee> mostly your problem is that things in X11 just do not scale with DPI01:53
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @mateosalta, but what you were trying was that altering numeral value(s) in a source code or something else?01:53
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, 96 always01:53
ubptgbot<mateosalta> it was a commandline value for launching01:53
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @KrisJacewicz, https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/unassigned-bugs/2016-January/037866.html01:54
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> sorry this was abt xinerama i will try to find relwvant link...01:54
ubptgbot<dohbee> DPI is irrelevant when all the apps are simply saying "make this thing N pixels wide"01:54
ubptgbot<dohbee> xorg does not magically scale apps01:54
ubptgbot<dohbee> a pixel is always a pixel01:55
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/58948501:56
ubot5Ubuntu bug 589485 in X.Org X server "Ignores physical display size and calculates based on 96DPI" [High,Confirmed]01:56
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, i thought that the widgetset layer uses dpi value for scaling. so when u design you use pixels but at runtime the widgetset scales things programatically. I read up on this some time ago, this is what i remembered.01:57
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, nope. if you specify in pixels you get pixels. the code has to be written to scale properly. gtk+3 is better at things of course, but still requires developers to design accordingly01:58
ubptgbot<mateosalta> like "Xmir -2x"01:58
ubptgbot<dohbee> this is why we have "grid units" in UT01:58
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> at least in case of the widgetsets that are adaptive to highDPI scenarios. I remwmber reading that both gtk+ and qt do this.01:58
ubptgbot<mateosalta> https://mutse.github.io/2015/11/08/howto-launch-desktop-apps-on-utouch/01:58
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, gtk+ 2.x most certainly does not. qt does not either if you do not write your application in the correct way to do it01:59
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, I lnow one thing for sure, when I develop gtk app on desktop i design size of everything in pixel units. but if i compile with highDPI optimization flag the app ends up scaled automatically on a retina desktop.02:00
ubptgbot<dohbee> if you want scalable/converged apps on UT, really the best way to get that is to use the Ubuntu UI Toolkit and grid units for everything02:00
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, what compile flag? there is no magic optimization flag afaik. you simply have to use the correct API if you want an app that scales with gtk+'s scaling config02:01
ubptgbot<dohbee> and that is only in gtk+302:01
ubptgbot<mateosalta> https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/226 here is how you can change the system grid units02:02
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> understand thanls again. I already worked around this problem for myself by writing a library that scales my apps property at runtime.  … What I have not solved is using x11 apps on the phone.  … I  other words, i dont need a solution for writing apps myself, only fpr running already written apps on the phone in a scaled way.02:02
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, there is no generic solution to this.02:03
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, compilation flags depend on a compiler. every compiler has different flags/switches. I use Lazarus IDE and what I use probably is different from what you are using.02:03
ubptgbot<dohbee> this is why we always called them "legacy apps" and suggest they only be used when connected to an external display02:03
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/High_DPI02:03
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> for all languages02:04
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> it really depends on what you use02:04
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, there is nothing in there about compile flags?02:04
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @UniversalSuperBox, ah yes, well i am myself interested in one language primarily: object pascal02:04
ubptgbot<dohbee> but anyway, it seems it simply provides some internal API which it sticks into your application or something02:05
ubptgbot<dohbee> again, this has nothing to do with gtk+ and is not a general thing you can do02:05
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, i font like to browse on phone, but lazarus IDE has a dialog where you set some flags and one is about compiling the app in dpi aware way. That logic will work regardless of the widgetset you choose to bind against. Like gtk or gtk3 or qt4 or qt502:07
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> not sure abt qt4 actually02:07
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> Hopefully no one is using Qt4 any more02:07
ubptgbot<dohbee> or gtk 1.x02:08
ubptgbot<dohbee> anyway, no, it has nothing to do with the toolkit. that is something with lazarus and/or object pascal or whatever02:08
ubptgbot<dohbee> you should not base your assumptions of how toolkits work, by what a single IDE provides for you02:08
ubptgbot<vanyasem> @UniversalSuperBox, i used to run qt1 on arch gnu/linux02:09
ubptgbot<dohbee> in a single language02:09
ubptgbot<vanyasem> @vanyasem, kde 1 is a nice DE. but it doesn't support scaling, so i switched to Plasma 502:09
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> not on purpose i diverged. the main thing is there is a bunch of apps that can run via xmir or xwayland some time soon. and it needs scaling for better readability. @dohbee you said that dpi setting has nothing to do with pixels. On one hand I hear you. On the other you still showed me that you can change the dpi for fonts and02:12
ubptgbotthey do scale. I wonder why thos kind of scaling only applies to fonts though. About how to scale the entire app not jist fonts.02:12
ubptgbot<K31j0> Old KDE was the shit02:12
ubptgbot<K31j0> it was great for what it was02:13
ubptgbot<dohbee> @K31j0, DPI setting does not change how many pixels are in a pixel, indeed. one pixels is still always one pixel. you cannot scale all app widgets as you ask for, unfortunately. you can scale apps which are built with newer toolkits that can handle scaling, in many cases, but there are still plenty where that will not work full02:14
ubptgboty, or at all.02:14
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> and again not because i cant write a properly scaled app, but for the purpose of scaling old apps. The xmir is a display within a natove window I suspect. It wonders me if that emulated display could not scale things before they end up drawn.02:14
ubptgbot<K31j0> scaling, layouts and adaptive UIs are always blowing my mind02:14
ubptgbot<K31j0> but I'm not UI/UX designer so that's understandable02:15
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, you can scale any old app you wish, so long as you rewrite it to be scalable02:15
ubptgbot<dohbee> the Xft.dpi setting only works for fonts, because Truetype fonts are already scalable02:15
ubptgbot<dohbee> it will not work for bitmap fonts, though02:16
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, what if the xmir window draws every emulated pixel over 4 actual pixels? not scaling but zooming in by the factor of x2?02:16
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> so if the pixels inside xmir window were 2 times bigger?02:16
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, that would be a massive waste of CPU02:16
ubptgbot<dohbee> stuff is slow enough without that happening02:16
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, cannot be handled by gpu?02:16
ubptgbot<dohbee> i guess not, as far as i understand, because xmir is already not gpu accelerated on the phones02:17
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> i mean that already ahppens no? the pixel in ui is not actualy the hardware pixel of the screen right? I mean on desktop I dont know abput the phone, never seen screen resolution changed on a phone02:17
ubptgbot<dohbee> if it were, then maybe it could be, but it would still be incredibly slow02:17
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, ah, that's right02:18
ubptgbot<dohbee> also the cpu/gpu are not entirely separate things02:18
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> so do you know if xwayland will be?02:18
ubptgbot<dohbee> i suspect xwayland will suffer from many of the same maladys on the phone02:18
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> ok but was it mentionned that at least ot would be gpu accelerated on the arm phones?02:19
ubptgbot<dohbee> @KrisJacewicz, i have no idea if it will be or not02:20
ubptgbot<dohbee> anyway, it is really not the solution to the problem.02:20
ubptgbot<dohbee> the only real solution is building fully converged apps02:21
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, it will be a solution to other problems though. If it wont fix scaling then it will fix graphical performance.02:22
ubptgbot<dohbee> graphical performance may be improved slightly with xwayland, but i'm not sure how much02:23
ubptgbot<dohbee> it is at least a single shared X server, rather than having a server per app, so likely will perform slightly better simply as a result of that02:23
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> what time it is believed that xwayland would land (replace xmir)?02:24
ubptgbot<dohbee> i don't know. it requires latest mir and some other changes, so probably some months02:24
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> i see so perhaps not this year02:25
ubptgbot<dohbee> for the apps you write, you are having the issue with fonts being decent size, but controls still small?02:25
ubptgbot<dohbee> or it's only an issue for other apps you've installed binaries of?02:26
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, only for other apps. The reason i dont have this problem is because in case of controls i know end up being tiny i dont use them and use custom drawn ones. Example is a checkbox. On a scaled font dpi the text to the right of the checkbox will show up big but the actual square within which the checkmark is will st02:34
ubptgbotill be tiny af. So i dont use the widgetset provided chackbox but instead i use my own whoch i draw according to my scalling.02:34
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> but my apps actually dont depend on the font dpi either for the fonts.02:34
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> ar startup i checl the actual dpi and dynamically resize pixel units of all ui elements by a calculated factor.02:38
ubptgbot<dohbee> right, that's basically what the sdk toolkit does, for grid units.02:39
ubptgbot<dohbee> and apps just say things are 1gu or 5gu or 2.5gu or whatever02:40
ubptgbot<dohbee> sort of like "display pixels" on android02:41
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> and then as a coder i must remember not to use hardcoded values either so this: … Label1.Height := 22; … becomes: … Label1.Height := VScale(22); … Vscale scales any pixel value by a vertical ratio. There is HScale and there is Scale which uses an average ratio between V and H.02:41
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, ok i see02:41
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> And QtQuick controls 2 should do it too02:42
ubptgbot<dohbee> you could implement it and use the same thing for your apps. and perhaps build with Qt5 instead of gtk+, then you wouldn't need to mess with xmir. you could just package your app in a click and run it directly then i guess02:42
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> We'll need to get QtMir to send the scale values correctly02:43
ubptgbot<dohbee> Qt has support for android display pixels internally, but not gu02:43
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> Right02:43
ubptgbot<dohbee> but i don't think we want to be using the SCALE or whatever variable02:43
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> Why not?02:43
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> @dohbee, in deed i am interested in binding my apps against qt5 instead of gtk. Lazarus allows you to choose a wifgetset and recompile against it.  … But i havent gotten around it yet because it turns out that the binding that works on desktop for qt5 does not work on the phone. I guess there are some binary differences i02:44
ubptgbotn qt libraries so my bindings dont compile.02:44
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> I know the UITK is great, but we'll really need to scale it back if we don't get about 5 more engineers02:44
ubptgbot<KrisJacewicz> i havent gotten time to try to follow compiler errors and manually try to change headers.02:44
ubptgbot<dohbee> @UniversalSuperBox, i'm not talking about keeping the full uitk.02:44
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> So... What? Patch Qt for grid units?02:45
ubptgbot<dohbee> no02:45
ubptgbot<dohbee> anyway, let's not go down that rabbit hole right now02:45
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> Yeah. We'll need to translate Px/GU to the Qt scale factor. :P02:46
ubptgbot<AlexanderPlaza> Anyone having issues with seeing categories within the open store on the latest RC release?03:28
ubptgbot<UniversalSuperBox> The API's been a little strange today I know03:29
ubptgbot<padraic7a> @KrisJacewicz, 👍04:09
ubptgbot<hydrahex> Fwd from vanyasem: https://t.me/unity8_port_notes04:58

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