plovshornbeck: yes just logged in12:00
hornbeckok, can you send me the copy?12:00
plovshornbeck: of marks mail?12:01
mjg59My collection of people to shoot is getting larger.12:03
plovshornbeck: kind of slowish12:04
hornbeckplovs: You are?12:04
plovshornbeck: that plone thingie12:05
hornbeckplovs: can you send me the mail though so I can know what to do12:05
hornbeckI have not seen it12:06
plovshornbeck: ok12:06
plovshornbeck: on its way12:08
mdzgah, old forum messages flooding the list12:17
tsengthom: sure thing12:18
mdzmjg59: reading debian-devel again?12:18
plovshornbeck: did you login its a little tricky12:24
mjg59I can get video back after resume without needing to fuck about with acpi_sleep paramaters now12:26
tsengthom: sent12:29
tsengthom: actually no its not.. anyone have thoms email handy?12:29
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hornbeckplovs was not really that tricky12:31
plovsare you in the right place *not* www.etc12:31
tsenghornbeck: you were correct, i removed mono core from my repo12:32
tsenghornbeck: it should be in universe now12:32
hornbeckI will add that part to the beagleinstall page12:32
hornbeckI get mail all day about that page12:32
hornbeckI did not relize that many people wanted to use beagle right now12:32
tsengsorry if i caused you trouble12:32
plovshornbeck: it's not even close to as easy as moin, but it looks better12:32
hornbeckno trouble at all12:32
tsengit should just work12:32
tsengfrom warty12:32
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hornbeckok it is updated now12:37
hornbeckgoing to eat12:37
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hornbeckmdz: is enrico the documentation team leader?01:58
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mdzhornbeck: I don't think a leader has been appointed yet02:04
hornbeckso I can still fight for power02:05
mdzyou guys are operating on pure adrenaline :-)02:05
hornbeckyes we are02:05
hornbeckops should have been opps02:05
hornbeckI am off to work on some more stuff02:05
mdzopps should be oops :-)02:06
hornbeckopps :-)02:06
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jdubmorning boys and girls03:23
lifelesswhat about hermaphrodites? You  sexist you03:24
jdubthey're boys and girls03:25
=== lifeless winces
Mitariohehe, lol03:31
Mitariohi jdub03:31
amuhey jdub 03:32
tsengjdub: you have an email addy for thom on hand?03:32
Mitarioanyone knows of a cool rocking python complient build-system? :)03:32
tsengMitario: um.. was that a troll?03:33
Mitarionot really :)03:33
Mitariojust a question :)03:33
Mitariodamn i have to learn to use less smilies03:34
Mitarioi'm writing a gnome python app here, and I want to have a nice build system03:37
Mitarioor should I just write it myself03:37
jdubtseng: thom@canonical.com03:38
lifelesstseng: any old addy for thom? thom@planetarytramp.net should reach him03:38
lifelessgarh, race conditions03:38
tsengi mustve fat fingered canonical03:38
tsengsince i got it back03:38
tsengah sorry, i typed two N's03:39
jdubhaw haw03:39
tsengthere we go.03:40
hornbeckthanks jdub, for the list04:10
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Mitariohmm, should go to bed soon05:42
Mitarioit's 5:42 AM over here05:42
hornbeckit is 10:43pm here05:43
Mitariobut i don't wanna, i'm too busy hacking python05:43
hornbeckits amazing how people come after you when a doc is wrong in alittle spot05:43
hornbeck"why does this not work like you said it would!!!!!"05:44
tuo2hornbeck: c'est la vie05:45
hornbeckwell I am off to shower05:47
bob2hornbeck: if they even read it, you're ahead of the game ;005:47
hornbeckbob2: very true05:47
fabbionemorning guys06:20
mdzfabbione: would it be enough notice if I scheduled the hoary kickoff meeting for monday?06:22
fabbionemdz: monday is perfect06:22
fabbionemy gf is busy with friends :-)))06:22
fabbioneand i scheduled all X day06:22
mdzwouldn't want to get anyone into trouble :-)06:23
fabbioneso a meeting to break from X is cool06:23
mdzworking on the X.org merge?06:23
mdzor other stuff?06:23
fabbionemdz: i already have a bunch of packages with path forwarded from xfree8606:23
fabbionei have been working almost 15 hours a day last week06:24
fabbioneah i need to send the activity reports :-)06:24
mdzit was a long week06:24
fabbionebut full of good results06:24
mdzperhaps not as long as the preview week06:25
mdzbut long :-)06:25
fabbionemdz: www.fabbione.net/Packages.gz06:26
fabbioneand i have another lib pending06:26
fabbionei plan to finish it this morning06:26
fabbionewhile my gf and her mother are still sleeping06:27
mdzwhat are all those -source- packages?06:27
fabbionemdz: X.org -> split06:28
fabbionesimilar to the kernel06:28
mdzPackage: xorg-source-programs-xplsprinters06:28
mdzI mean, what is in that binary package^ ?06:28
fabbioneit contains a tar of xc/programs/xplsprinters06:29
fabbioneat the moment it's just a script that creates them06:29
mdzthis is starting to sound scary :-)06:29
fabbionesome of them are bogus06:29
mdzare you implying that the various source tarballs can't build by themselves?06:29
fabbioneno i imply that for example xorg-source-lib-xtrans doesn't generate any binary package06:30
fabbionebut it is required to build other libraries06:30
fabbioneit is used in a very weird way06:30
fabbionebut it's needed06:30
fabbioneeven if it doesn't generate binaries directly06:30
fabbionelibxdmcp and libx11 build-deps on it06:30
fabbioneif you are curious to see how it builds i can put the stuff up somewhere06:31
fabbionebut it must be highly hidden06:31
fabbionei don't want any of the orig to leak anywhere06:31
fabbioneuntil we are not ready for distribution06:32
=== fabbione is happy to see that amber did her job
=== lamont looks at the topic, gags
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Warty Day! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | please test http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041021-06/warty-live-i386-20041021-06.iso so it can be warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
mdzwarty day is officially over. onward to hoary day!06:34
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:fabbione] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Warty Day! | | BE THE SIGNAL | please test http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041021-06/warty-live-i386-20041021-06.iso so it can be warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
fabbionewe have slightly more than 13 bugs now06:34
mdzI deleted the wrong item06:35
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Hoary Trail! | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE | please test http://releases.ubuntu.com/warty/warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
=== mdz hums "happy trails"
=== lamont looks forward to changing that last item again in about 16 hours
fabbionemdz: does that Package list looks scary?06:36
=== lamont sleeps
fabbionenight lamont06:37
lamontfabbione: night06:37
fabbionemdz: with the split we will need to pull in a couple of packages from universe06:41
fabbionemdz: at least these are the numbers i have until now06:41
mdzfabbione: which ones?06:41
mdzfabbione: will it always need to be packaged this way, or will it eventually be split up in a more traditional way?06:41
mdzlike -dev packages06:41
fabbionemdz: rman and another one.. i can't remember06:41
fabbioneit's required for documentation06:42
fabbionemdz: the packaging system IS traditional06:42
fabbionecheck libfs6 for example06:42
fabbionesource package is xorg-libfs -> libfs6 and libfs-dev06:42
mdzfabbione: I am talking about the "-source-" packages06:42
mdzwhich are build-depended on06:42
fabbionemdz: they will die slowly06:42
mdzand contain source code06:42
fabbionemdz: you need to see to understand06:42
mdzI am glad :-)06:42
fabbionewait a few secs06:43
mdzI understand; it is like the apache madness06:43
hornbeckman how do you guys deal with people who just don't get it06:43
fabbionemdz: i dunno jakarta06:43
fabbionemdz: no no.. this is much better :-)06:44
mdzhornbeck: in what context?06:44
hornbeckmdz: just venting from getting questions about stuff that I think is just common since06:45
hornbeckit will make me a better doc writer06:45
mdzhornbeck: treat their high expectations as an indication of their confidence in you06:46
hornbeckmdz: That is a good way to look at it06:46
=== hornbeck goes to bed
hornbeckgood night06:48
fabbionemdz: check in the usual place06:50
fabbionebasically the concept is that as soon as each X.org components gains independency06:51
fabbioneit will be killed from xorg_6.8.x06:52
fabbioneand it will not produce the -source- package06:52
fabbioneand source will move to the appropriate orig.tar.gz06:52
fabbioneit's very simple and efficent06:52
fabbionesince it requires a one time blessing from ftpmasters06:52
fabbionethe first upload of the -source- will be done once basically06:53
fabbioneand not touched anymore06:53
fabbionethis will save a lot of bw06:53
fabbioneof course.. it will be redone on major upstream releases06:54
fabbionebut all the patches and small things live in the splitted packages06:54
fabbioneso an upload is like a very few hunderd kb06:54
fabbioneit's pure crack06:54
fabbionebut it's working for me now06:54
mdzI guess I am wondering why it makes sense to split up the source packages already when the upstream source is not truly split yet06:56
fabbionemdz: preparation06:56
fabbioneit will save us a lot of time later on06:56
fabbione+ it is giving us an amazing overview of how the build system interacts06:56
mdzhow will it save time?06:57
fabbioneand how stuff build-dep on each other06:57
fabbioneseveral points:06:57
fabbioneeach component is already splitted = less time to maintain it06:57
danielsthe build-dep stuff has been interesting.  i've been working on making x totally bootstrappable (an own-time effort) upstream, which has been interesting.06:57
fabbioneexample: fonts and docx06:57
danielsgoing to set up sbuild, possibly with w-b, to rampage through and see how broken my xlibs b-ds are06:57
fabbionei upload them once and i can forget about them06:57
danielsthey should be pretty good06:57
mdzyes, fonts and docs seem fine06:58
mdznothing build-depends on those06:58
fabbioneinstead if i have them in the same source i still need to spend time to check that they didn't break anything06:58
danielsmdz: last i saw, there were a couple of font b-ds06:58
=== mdz runs away
danielsmdz: but they appear to have largely died in the arse now.  mercifully.06:58
fabbionemdz: a fix in libfoo bar that doesn't change the API/ABI06:58
fabbionei can upload libfoo without having to upload 100MB of updates for everybody06:59
fabbionea security fix in the server will not require to upload fonts06:59
fabbionesee.. there are a lot of good things behind it06:59
fabbionedaniels: btw.. i got libX11 to compile fine07:00
Mitariowow, security updates!07:01
mdzI understand the benefits of having the packages split, but it seems to be costing you a lot of complexity to do it now, rather than later07:01
fabbionemdz: not at all and not anymore07:01
fabbionemdz: it was difficul to create the first 2/3 packages07:01
danielsfabbione: congrats07:02
mdzfabbione: ok, I believe you :-)07:02
fabbionemdz: now it's almost a copy of a template and that's it07:02
danielsfabbione: i'm still beating you though :P07:02
danielsunfortunately that system still has a /usr/X11R607:02
fabbionedaniels: yes. we have been discussing this problem a lot on irc yesterday and the day before07:02
fabbionethe issue is where we go and store stuff like include files07:03
fabbionethere are more issues than benefits doing a rename07:03
fabbionemdz: and take into account that i am also forward-porting patches from xfree86 at the same time.07:04
fabbionemdz: that is time consuming07:04
fabbionemdz: but i already "killed" the server that had tons of them07:04
mdzI assume it will be easier to get patches upstream in x.org than xfree86?07:04
fabbionemdz: and other big bits here and there07:04
fabbionemdz: daniels' problem :P07:04
fabbionemdz: for example most of changes to the build system are confined into the DebianMaintainer section of the Imake file07:05
fabbionethat is safe for upstream to merge07:05
fabbioneinstead of spreading changes all over the place07:05
fabbionemdz: i also ported most of the sanity checks from Xfree86 into X.org07:08
fabbionelike the patch-audit and MANIFEST checks07:08
fabbioneso that makes the development a bit slower but much much more clean07:08
danielsfabbione: thing is, we'll need to do this migration anyway07:24
danielsfabbione: there will be no x11r6.907:24
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fabbionedaniels: yes i understand that.07:25
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fabbionedaniels: i have one big concern at the moment07:26
cchmm, maybe i should ask here... on PPC, where does warty enable sysctl calls for mouse button emulation? i.e. write something sane in /etc/sysctl.conf07:26
fabbioneis that we are switching tree and reorganizing the layout07:26
fabbionedaniels: imho it's a bit too much in one shot07:26
fabbionedaniels: we can plan that for grumpy07:26
danielsit's a big shot, but it's going to be just as much pain for two things in two stages07:26
fabbionedaniels: i have been checking a few things07:27
fabbioneand killing X11R6 is very very danegerous07:27
fabbionespecially because X.org doesn't have full control on these directories yet07:27
fabbionethe only way out is to create transitional packages for a bunch of things like groff, tetex-bin and others07:27
fabbionethat will decuplicate our work load07:28
fabbionedpkg-deb: building package `libx11-6' in `../libx11-6_6.8.1-0+SVN_i386.deb'.07:28
fabbionedpkg-deb: building package `libx11-dev' in `../libx11-dev_6.8.1-0+SVN_i386.deb'.07:28
fabbionedaniels: btw... all my packages are lintian clean too :-)07:29
fabbionethey all miss one thing only07:29
fabbionecalled copyright file07:29
fabbionethat will be strictly depends on what we decide for point 6 of the debian clause for Xprint07:30
fabbione+ fonts07:30
fabbionedaniels: you can check -r19 commit and following thread07:30
fabbionebut both Overfiend and I agree in killing Xprint out of X.org, since Drew agreed in maintaing on his own07:31
danielserrr ...07:35
danielsroland is using xorg as his main xprint development tree07:35
danielsas much as I'd prefer xprint to just crawl into a hole and die in general, apparently x.org is the most up-to-date X tree there is07:35
danielsfabbione: btw, last time I checked, the only real significant package using X11R6 was gsfonts-x1107:36
danielsfabbione: i think it needs to be done ... by the time hoary is released, upstream will already be into r7, basically07:36
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fabbionedaniels: you miss the point.. one thing is using X11R6..07:49
fabbioneanother thing are all the packages like groff that depends on stuff that stores thing in X11R607:49
danielsthose can be reasonably trivially fixed07:49
fabbionewe build-dep on groff and tetex-bin that pulls in x stuff07:49
fabbionedaniels: as i said above...07:49
danielswe only build-dep on those for documentation building07:49
fabbionewe need a bunch of transitional packages07:49
danielswhy?  if we do right we nuke that b-d altogether07:50
fabbionedaniels: do right what? not building the documentation?07:50
danielsso if we have a separate source package that provides docs, right07:51
danielsand this is built independently from the radeon driver, or whatever07:51
danielswe can pull the transition off nciely07:51
danielsthis is what modularity's about :) the docs are just another random package07:51
fabbionedaniels: it is another random package till a certain point07:52
daniels(personally I'd just prefer to see them on a website somewhere, but there you go)07:52
danielsyeah ...07:52
fabbionedaniels: we have to ship documentation07:52
fabbionedaniels: if upstream switches to R7 the problem is "solved"07:53
fabbionedaniels: they change -> we kill07:53
danielsupstream is already changing07:53
fabbioneright now we have the same name schema and doesn't make it easier07:53
danielsunless something goes horribly wrong, april we'll have r7, and it will be all modular07:53
fabbionedaniels: april is not now07:53
danielsyeah ... but if we change, then when upstream changes, it's less pain then07:53
danielsyes, but the upstream development is already moving that way07:54
fabbionedaniels: it's the other way around this time :P07:54
danielsand it's already moving to modularity07:54
danielsif we keep going like this, we end up in another 4.2/4.3 situation where it's horribly painful to catch up07:54
fabbionesee this07:54
danielsif we get ourselves slightly ahead of the eight-ball now, we don't have to worry so much07:54
fabbioneupstream: X11R6 us: X11R607:54
fabbioneupstream rename to: R7 or whatever07:55
fabbionejustdave: we kill it07:55
fabbioneus ^07:55
danielswhat's dave got to do with it? :)07:55
danielsyeah, I see bthat07:55
danielsbut we'll be ahead of upstream in this case07:55
fabbioneright now there is too much collision07:55
danielsthat means less pain later ... come hoary release time we can just release hoary and that's fine07:55
fabbionedaniels: i understand that07:55
danielsi don't see too much collision at all07:55
danielsi just think we have a golden opportunity spending two weeks hacking together, and we can do a lot of stuff in that time07:56
fabbionedaniels: ok.. we kill X11R6.. where do we store include files?07:56
fabbionedaniels: wrong. See policy07:56
danielsall the includes are <X11/Xutil.h>, et al07:56
danielsit doesn07:56
danielsit doesn't actually violate policy07:56
fabbioneyes it does07:56
danielsi've been down that road and checked it out07:56
danielsthoroughly.  and asked other people.  and been assured it's ok. :)07:56
fabbionePackages must not provide or install files into the directories /usr/bin/X11/, /usr/include/X11/ or /usr/lib/X11/.07:57
danielsiirc i asked mdz this in about june, and he said it was fine for warty07:57
fabbionesee.. there is a NOT07:57
fabbionedaniels: that will make our packages not importable into debian for a long while07:57
fabbioneand i seriously don't want that07:57
danielsoh sorry, I was thinking of FHS.  but anyway, it's been cleared with mdz.  we can not worry about it for hoary, and we can get policy changed in debian.07:58
danielsok, hm, reading policy either the authors are on drugs or can't write clearly07:58
fabbionedaniels: you can ask Kamion 07:58
danielsmy interpretation -- look at the first paragraph, where it says that packages are encouraged to transition out of /usr/X11R6 -- is that it's ok for base X to use it07:58
danielsbut not for other stuff to use /usr/include/X1107:59
fabbionehe was deeply involved in that discussion07:59
danielsbecause everyone uses <X11/Xutil.h> or whatever, so there's not much other07:59
danielsyeah, and also the last train to where I'm going for the weekend leaves soon.  no more trains tonight or tomorrow, so alas I must fly.07:59
danielsemail me if there's anything else07:59
danielsKamion: comments on the discussion above?07:59
fabbionenahh i am going to work on the house today07:59
fabbionegotta fix the bathroom07:59
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paulproteusPsst, is support for NIS or Kerberos planned?  I want to deploy Ubuntu in the JHU ACM computing club, but we need it to work with our central login system.08:06
bob2ubuntu includes kerberos and nis support.08:11
paulproteusbob2: I can't seem to find it in the documentation.  Where is it talked about, and how would I enable it?08:15
bob2it's the same as in Debian.08:15
paulproteusAh, okay.  Maybe I'll install it on a cluster machine tomorrow and just poke at it, then. (-:08:15
dokolamont: the live CD does work in safe mode only, in the default mode X cannot find any valid screens, and the OS starts to shut down/restart immediately.08:33
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fabbioneisn't debhelper supposed to install a postinst file if there is none by default and it creates a .postinst.debhelper one?09:33
dokoit creates the posinst in the DEBIAN dir only, not in debian09:34
fabbionedoko: the problem is that there is no postinst at the end of the process in the installed package09:35
dokodh_installdeb is called for this package?09:36
fabbione        dh_installdeb -a09:36
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dokodh_installdeb -a -v ?09:37
fabbionedh_installdeb -a -v09:38
fabbione        install -o 0 -g 0 -d debian/libfs6/DEBIAN09:38
fabbione        install -o 0 -g 0 -d debian/libfs-dev/DEBIAN09:38
fabbioneit simply doesn't install them...09:39
fabbionewell i will have to create a default postinst09:39
dokostrange, but dh_listpackages -a -v shows the packages?09:41
fabbioneif i stick a fake postinst it works09:42
fabbioneno it doesn't09:42
fabbioneit install the postinst but there is no #DEBHELPER# replacement09:43
fabbionethis is so weird09:44
fabbioneexit 009:45
fabbionei don't see anything wrong in this09:45
fabbionethe result is a file like that one with no #DEBHELPER#09:45
fabbioneand nothing inside from the .postinst.debhelper09:45
fabbionedoko: do you have any idea?09:51
fabbionei am in compat 409:52
fabbionebut that should only help09:52
fabbione3 is the minimum required to generate the .debhelper for libs09:52
fabbioneand yes i call dh_makeshlibs and all that nice stuff :-)09:54
dokoyou use postinst, or <package>.postinst? and <package>.postinst.debehelper is created?09:55
fabbionei use <package>.postinst09:55
fabbioneyes <package>.postinst.debehelper is always created09:56
fabbioneaccording to doc if i remove <package>.postinst09:56
fabbione<package>.postinst.debehelper should be installed automatically 09:56
fabbionebut it's not09:56
fabbioneit's like debhelper is fux0red09:56
fabbionei need to go now09:56
fabbioneand start to work on the house09:56
dokoput the package somewhere, although I leave for the Berlinux now.09:57
fabbionethanks dude09:57
fabbionedoko: monday stuff :P09:57
dokosee you09:57
Kamioncc: /etc/sysctl.conf is a conffile, so it's just done at build-time in the package that owns it (procps, I think)10:20
Kamiondaniels,fabbione: I think it's fine for X to use /usr/include/X11 directly, if that's what turns out to be convenient; that part of policy is there to serve X, not the other way round10:20
Kamiondaniels,fabbione: however, given the historical fact of the /usr/include/X11 symlink, I feel you might be in for less dpkg-related pain if you just left it as a symlink forever10:21
ccKamion: thanks. i need to perform an installation and take a look at procps then. we didn't know if we should get it in the installer or the kernel, so were looking for ideas :)10:21
Kamionwell, the installer doesn't have mouse support (yet ...)10:21
ccits a case of in the installer, you'll never need mouse support. was wondering how it was done afterward...10:22
Kamioncc: oh, we will10:24
Kamionbut I'll hack that whatever way's most expedient when the time comes ...10:25
ccKamion: oh, cool. i was asking mainly for ideas on how we're going to handle it on fedora/ppc10:26
Kamionifneq (,$(wildcard debian/sysctl.conf.$(DEB_HOST_ARCH)))10:37
Kamion        cat debian/sysctl.conf.$(DEB_HOST_ARCH) >> $(CURDIR)/debian/procps/etc/sysctl.conf10:37
Kamionand debian/sysctl.conf.powerpc has the obvious fragment10:37
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cenerentolasorry but if i "modprobe toshiba_acpi" and it doesnt say anything... what's it trying to tell me?10:57
paulproteusAre there plans to support automatically noticing existing NTFS and/or FAT32 partitions and mounting them automatically?11:10
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jc-dentonis "please test" the live cd?11:13
Kamionpaulproteus: at some point probably yes11:15
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paulproteusKamion: Okay.  I'm thinking of features for my http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/TeachingUbuntu mini-course.11:21
paulproteusOkay, off to bed for me now.11:23
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plovsanybody in the plone wiki?11:59
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bob2plovs: what do you mean?12:11
plovsi am playing around with the wiki on the plone site, some other devs probably are as well, i have some questions12:26
plovshornbeck, awake?12:27
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fabbionesabdfl: morning :-)01:32
sabdflhey fabbione01:33
fabbioneKamion: yes, i understand that really.. but i don't feel like it's a good idea to do it right now01:33
plovssabdfl, does lu do irc?01:36
sabdflplovs: yes, lulu01:36
plovssabdfl, is she the best person to bug about zwiki?01:37
mjg59Hmm. Little progress with the craptop.01:38
fabbionedoko: that problem seems to be strictly related to X. Branden did a workaround in Xfree86 too.01:38
fabbionedoko: so clearly it is either debhelper that is broken or joeyh/branden decided that way. i will have to dig into it01:39
mjg59I'm confused. It points the wakeup vector at the wakeup code, but never actually executes any of it01:39
nasdaq4088sorry, but I was wondering what type of internet connection you guys have? at what speed do you download the ubuntu cd? how many kb/s ?01:39
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amunasdaq4088: 100Mbit; downloadspeed 3MB/sec. download takes, 2,30 min. ; @home 3Mbit, 350kb/sec download takes 30-45min.  01:49
nasdaq4088you must be working for british telecom01:51
amunope :)   01:51
Keybuk350Kbpss is suspiciously 2500Mebps ... <g>01:51
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=== Keybuk mops the coffee out of his keyboard
amuKeybuk: hehe 01:53
nasdaq4088amu: that means it takes 1sec to download an mp301:53
fabbioneok.. now i need to focus on the house01:54
fabbionelater guys!01:54
amunasdaq4088: downloading ? no way it waste diskspace, i listen "online" 01:54
fabbionehave a nice weekend!01:54
amufabbione: greetings to GF ;) 01:54
nasdaq4088bye fabbione01:54
nasdaq4088you mean you download wow amu that is awesome01:55
mjg59Keybuk: I'm tracking down some of the things that the ACPI problem /isn't/01:56
jdubacpi=force fixes pipka's toshiba kernel problem (making it inordinately slow)01:57
mjg59jdub: Yeah. We're going to have to work through more of that stuff.01:57
mjg59On the bright side, I now have working ACPI on the X40 without having to use any kernel arguments01:58
=== cenerentola [~cenerento@ppp-82-84-140-79.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukmjg59: *nods*, it feels like the hardware wakes up but the software doesn't01:58
jdubmjg59: is any of that b0rkness usefully detectable?01:59
mjg59jdub: Not very, at the moment02:01
mjg59Keybuk: I think it's probably much the same problem that I have here - the hardware doesn't start executing the code that's supposed to be sitting at the wakeup vector02:01
mjg59I have one idea left, but it's going to be a bitch to implement02:01
Keybukis there any particular reason it wouldn't?02:01
mjg59Keybuk: Well, three main possibilities:02:02
mjg591) The suspend sequence hasn't set the hardware up properly02:02
mjg592) The hardware loses the wakeup vector02:02
mjg593) The hardware overwrites the memory that the wakeup code is in02:03
mjg59Currently, Linux tends to put the wakeup code in the first few K of physical RAM02:03
mjg59I'd prefer it to be a few hundred further up02:03
Keybukyeah, I tried back at Debconf to persuade bdale to get me a dialogue with the guy at HP who actually wrote the ACPI support in the thing to see whether he could help -- but didn't have any joy.  Is odd, because the ACPI support of the laptop is otherwise flawless.02:05
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mjg59I'm in touch with someone at Intel at the moment02:05
mjg59We're working through the obvious stuff02:06
mjg59I've got a handy board with LEDs on that plugs into the parallel port, which makes life easier02:06
Keybukheh, not got one of them02:07
mjg59A parallel port?02:07
mjg59Or a board?02:07
mjg59It's kind of cool - there's no way to attach a POST card to laptops, so they do their POST numbers over the parallel port02:08
mjg59It flashes all over the place whenever you reboot02:08
Keybukeither :p02:11
=== play [~gilles@lns-vlq-31-nce-82-253-163-227.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
playsorry :)02:13
playi'm testing IRC :)02:13
hornbeckplovs: ping!02:17
plovshornbeck, pong!02:19
hornbeckplovs: whats up02:19
plovshornbeck, reading up on Quick reStructuredText 02:20
hornbeckcool, I planed on doing that today also02:20
plovshornbeck, more difficult then moin but more powerfull as well02:20
plovshornbeck, looking forward to use it02:21
hornbeckplovs: I can't wait02:21
plovshornbeck, it is not really a wiki though, it is a cms with a wiki plugin, but who cars :)02:22
hornbeckplovs: I have not even got to really look through it, but from what I saw I liked02:22
plovshornbeck, read: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/rst/quickref.html02:23
KeybukI wish python on rockery wouldn't keep segfaulting02:24
plovshornbeck, adding pages is simple, folders as well, pictures i do not yet get (look in howtos how i don't get it)02:24
plovshornbeck, if you find out how to make a home-page let me know02:24
hornbeckplovs: Are you going to start reformatting pages from the wiki to put over on the new site, next week02:25
hornbeckI did not understand that part of the emails02:25
=== mjg59 hacks the memory allocation to raise the wakeup address
Keybuk(though I suspect this is really a result of shutil.rmtree being on total crack and eating GB of memory to work out what to remove, *sigh* )02:27
hornbeckplovs: brb getting food02:28
plovshornbeck, i don't know will this playground be the real wiki, next week? then we can move some stuff lthough all the moin stuff will be incorperated automatically02:28
hornbeckplovs: It will be incorperated automatically?02:33
plovshornbeck, yes02:33
hornbeckplovs: That is great02:34
hornbeckplovs: I was not sure if we where going to have to redo it all :-)02:34
sabdflhornbeck, plovs: hi guys02:34
hornbecksabdfl: hello02:34
sabdflshouldn't have to redo anything02:34
sabdflmaybe work on structure a little bit02:34
hornbeckthat will be great02:34
sabdflthe new wiki has more organisational features02:34
sabdfljust Moin tables are a problem02:34
hornbeckit should be no problem just working on formatting it02:35
sabdflare the two of you the ones playing in that area on the site at the moment?02:35
jdubsabdfl: can we standardise on a certain format?02:35
plovssabdfl, it looks really nice, after you get the hang of it02:35
sabdfljdub: will make a strong recommendation02:35
sabdflplovs: sure does :-)02:35
jdubsabdfl: i'm going to cry if we have ReST, moin, html, etc... ;)02:35
sabdfljdub: i *think* we will recommend (a) ReST, (b) html02:35
hornbeckjdub: so would I02:35
plovsjdub, i vote for ReST it rules, no html, the site will look a mess02:36
sabdflwe can probably automatically convert moin to ReST02:36
plovscan we export rest to docbook?02:36
hornbeckRest is looking good02:36
sabdflplovs: some things you can only do in html02:36
sabdfland I *think* you can embed html in ReST02:36
jdubcan you-- ah02:36
sabdfl<div class="portalMessage"> is fun02:36
hornbeckhtml, is always needed alittle in webpages02:37
sabdflsee the home page for the banner i put on there this morning02:37
plovssabdfl, where is documentation for this stuff? <div class="portalMessage">02:37
sabdflplovs: plone02:38
sabdfli think we should be *very* strict with html embedded02:38
sabdflas plovs says, it can become a mess02:38
=== plovs must read plone
plovscan you make an admin group with the 'rights' to do html the rest uses ReST?02:39
Keybuk"After reading about Ubuntu I have decided to include it into DesktopOS.com as one of the Linux Operating Systems we follow.02:40
KeybukThe review by JL helped, and some other news I read.02:40
KeybukThis is the first GNOME distro on DesktopOS.com"02:40
mjg59I see oGo is back in #gnome-hackers, too02:41
jdubmjg59: turned up the other day02:41
Keybukmjg59: register backme.org ? :)02:41
jdubmust've been inspired by the nokia work02:41
jdubhe's already imported atlantis02:41
mjg59Yeah, he seems keen on webcore02:41
sabdflKeybuk: naaaaiiice02:42
plovshornbeck, i have to go, i'll be back tonight02:42
hornbeckplovs: I am leaving for work in a sec also02:42
hornbecktalk later02:42
plovshornbeck, see ya!02:43
mjg59Arse. Right, that makes no difference02:43
Keybukno difference to?02:46
srbakerokay, i'm trying an ubuntu install again on my lapto02:48
srbakerit'd better work this time!02:48
srbakerwhere is the ubuntu porn?02:49
Keybukelmo's getting oiled up as we speak02:49
jdubsrbaker: apt-get install ubuntu-calendar02:50
=== jdub goes for dinner
Keybukjdub: s/apt-get/aptitude/02:50
jdubKeybuk: i don't do aptitude yet02:50
mjg59Keybuk: Resume02:51
Keybukaptitude will install recommends as well, and does dep tracking02:51
Keybukmjg59: doesn't it work for you already?02:51
mjg59Putting the waking vector at 256K rather than 4K02:51
mjg59Not on the craptop02:51
Keybukor did you just break it completely? :p02:51
mjg59The C3 PoS02:51
Keybukah, heh02:51
Keybukmay I test?02:51
mjg59I've got one more thing to try here, then I'd be interested if you could test my test kernel02:52
mjg59It'll probably make no difference, but...02:52
srbakerdoes that install the porno login screen?02:54
=== __daniel [~daniel@td9091c55.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukthat login screen is available, just select the HumanCircle theme02:55
srbakerit should be the default.02:56
srbakerhopefully ubuntu doesn't break on my lappy this tiem02:58
Keybukfor various reasons the community felt it shouldn't be the default02:58
srbakerwell the community was wrong.02:59
mjg59Keybuk: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/acpikernel03:01
sabdflglad to see the :-) in there03:01
srbakermjg59, what's that kernel for?  i'm having acpi trouble with my lappy03:01
sabdflmjg59: looks crap in a browser, wheres the penguin?03:02
mjg59srbaker: Attempts to deal with complete failure to resume03:03
Keybuksabdfl: apt-get install uml ... that should associate application/x-linux-kernel and boot with it03:04
Keybukps. I'm kidding ... I hope03:04
srbakermjg59, ahh.  the problem i'm having is i have to do acpi=force03:07
srbakerhas anyone else heard of gnome starting, but the splash screen not showing? 03:08
srbakerit seems that gnome-session was hanging on me03:08
mjg59srbaker: acpi=force depends on the date of your BIOS03:08
srbakermjg59, right.  my bios is pre-199903:09
srbakerit's a toshiba lappy that i hate03:09
mjg59The safe thing to do is use apm instead03:09
srbakermjg59, but if acpi is off, I/O slows down so badly that it takes about 3 minutes to boot03:11
srbakerand usability is basically nill03:11
srbakernil even03:12
srbakeri said: toshiba lappy.  that means "suck"03:12
mjg59That's likely to be indicative of something else that's wrong03:12
Keybukmjg59: nope, unsurprisingly that didn't help03:12
srbakermjg59, figured.  but acpi=force fixes it03:13
srbakermjg59, what woudl you suggest looking at ?03:14
lamontdoko: hardware specks for the liveCD-X-issue machine?03:14
srbakeroh, and i tried to boot warty RC2 live cd on an HP Digital Entertainment Center, and it wouldn't because the DEC sucks balls.03:14
srbakerand i almost got myself writ up for it, too.03:15
mjg59srbaker: Not sure03:15
mjg59Probably interrupt related03:15
Keybukif it's a Tosh, defenestration seems a good plan <g>03:15
mjg59Keybuk: Yeah, thought not. Same behaviour as before?03:15
Keybukmjg59: yup03:15
srbakermjg59, oh, i notice that it sometimes disables irq 1103:16
srbakerKeybuk, defenestration?03:16
mjg59Heh. Well, I'm running out of ideas.03:16
mjg59srbaker: Throw through a window. Opening the window is optional.03:16
Keybukmjg59: it printed some stuff on sleep about addresses, I guess that was your debugging?03:17
srbakermjg59, well, perhaps when i get a new lappy.  right now, this Toshiba is all i can afford03:17
srbakerand that's mostly because it was almost free.03:17
srbakeri have kids and their welfare bum mother to support.03:17
mjg59Keybuk: Yeah03:18
srbakeranyways.  the install process goes well.03:18
mjg59The second and third should be the same03:18
srbakerit's starting gnome that gave me problems03:18
Keybukthey were03:18
mjg59So the contents of the wakeup vector are set and still correct immediately before suspend03:19
srbakerwhat did you guys use to build the arty live cd?  i need to build debian-based live cds, are there good tools available?03:19
Keybuksrbaker: morphix03:21
Keybukmjg59: heh, that sounds sane :)03:21
lamontsrbaker: writing the 'what we did for a livecd' page on the wiki is on my todo list for next week03:22
Keybukthere's a few notable things I've noticed03:22
Keybuk1) the screen remains "off", not just black03:22
srbakerlamont, thank you03:22
Keybuk2) after a short while not resuming, the fans increase in power as it gets warm (even with a kernel with no fan control, so this is hardware doing it I guess)03:22
Keybuk3) the caps lock key works with acpi_sleep=s3_mode, but nothing else03:23
srbakerlamont, i have a medium-sized contract to put my kiosk software on my livecd03:23
srbakererm, a livecd.03:23
srbakerthat's actually how i got the toshiba lappy.03:24
mjg59Keybuk: ?03:24
lamontnote that the liveCD should work on a subset of the hardware that the install CD does (different hw detection missese some stuff - will be merged in hoary03:25
mjg59If you pass acpi_sleep=s3_mode, you get working caps lock?03:25
Keybukwell, the key turns the light on and off03:25
mjg59That's interesting03:25
mjg59Because that's under software control03:25
Keybukisn't it under hardware control for a small period?03:25
mjg59BIOS control03:26
amuhey lamont 03:26
mjg59That's weird. And only under acpi_sleep=s3_mode ?03:27
Keybukwell, I've noticed it twice, the second was under s3_mode03:27
Keybukand I've tried it under other times, and it didn't help03:27
=== Keybuk shall try now, hold on
mjg59Hmm. Very strange.03:27
sabdflKeybuk: nice idea03:28
srbakerlamont, my current kiosk software installs to harddrive using mondo. :P03:28
sabdflis there a uml firefox plugin?03:28
srbakerlamont, the hardware for the kiosks are all identical.  hw detection isn't important03:28
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mjg59The only thing the acpi_sleep things do is twiddle what the kernel does to the video hardware03:28
Keybuksabdfl: ask mdz, it's one of his fetishes03:28
Keybukmjg59: that's what I thought03:28
Keybukit's a radeon, so it's known fucking iritating03:28
lamontsrbaker: bootcd might do the trick for a fixed config...03:30
lamontalthough I've never used that03:31
=== lamont wanders off to meet the day, bbl
mjg59Keybuk: In general, using vgacon makes life massively easier03:32
KeybukI understood the new thought on this was to vgapost in the radeon init sequence and use radeonfb03:32
srbakerlamont, well, fixed config is the "main" usage, but i want it to be demonstrable on random hw03:33
Keybukmjg59: nope, can't replicate that now03:34
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mjg59Keybuk: Weird03:36
sid77hi, all :)03:36
mjg59Keybuk: Yeah, you /can/ do it that way. But that's not a very generic solution.03:36
amusrbaker: easy way, cdbackup + installed discover. 03:36
Keybukdoes the video init happen before or after where you put the beeping ?03:36
mjg59Getting this working with vesafb is going to be a real nightmare03:36
mjg59Keybuk: After03:36
mjg59But I've taken the beeping out now03:36
Keybukok, was wondering whether that was hard-crashing it or something03:37
Keybukif I suspend with caps lock on, the light doesn't light up again on wake-up03:37
srbakergeh.  time to job hunt today.03:37
=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mjg59Hmm. vesafb-ng might be a better bet.03:39
Keybukand suspended with all fans on, and non of them spin up on wakeup03:40
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ctalkephi there?03:40
ctalkepany chance that daf is here?03:40
carlosctalkep: perhaps later03:40
ctalkepcarlos, thanks. can't find him for so l ong:)03:41
=== sid77 is now known as sid77_
carlosbut I'm not sure if he will enter into this channel03:41
carloshmm, he's here03:41
carlosbut away03:41
carlosso as soon as he wakes up...03:42
=== sid77_ is now known as sid77
ctalkepsleepy guy:)03:42
ctalkepwanted to get info on translation contribution03:42
ctalkepif anyne here can help, i won't stalk him so hard:)03:43
carlosctalkep: which kind of info do you need?03:45
ctalkepas basic as possible, i wanted to start the bulgarian translation, and need to know where do i start03:45
__danielcarlos, ctalkep: good starting point would be the debian bulgarian l10n status, wouldnt it?03:46
carlos__daniel: yes03:47
carlosctalkep: We don't have (yet) ready the translation tools to handle translations directly03:47
__danielctalkep, bg is the code for bulgaria?03:48
carlosbut as __daniel suggest, you could start now contributing to Debian, GNOME and other projects directly because we will get also those translations back03:48
ctalkepoh, did not know that03:49
carlosctalkep: as soon as we have our l10n infrastructure in place we will announce it in our mailing list and website03:50
ctalkepoh, this info is pretty enough for me03:51
ctalkepso i'll just start with the debian then03:51
__danielctalkep, cool you'd like to contribute! :-)03:51
ctalkepi manage several sites and i would like to put on some banners etc. where do i get, like, website ki?03:55
ctalkepi mean website kit03:55
__danielbye everyone03:56
srbakerokay, this is *fucked* up04:08
srbakeri logged into my ubuntu laptop for the first time 15 minutes ago04:08
srbakerit *just* loaded the trash can and workspace switcher04:08
srbakersomething's not right04:08
srbakerwhen i click the computer menu, it takes about 30 seconds for it to show up04:09
srbakeranyone else having these problems?04:12
sid77afaik ubuntu desktop isn't so rich of icon, isn't it right to just load the trash and the switcher?04:14
sid77(in the lower menu)04:15
Keybuksrbaker: try booting with noapic and pci=noacpi04:15
mjg59srbaker: It would help if you could check whether this is happening with all processes04:20
srbakermjg59, yeah, after rebooting, it appears that everything is slowed down04:22
srbakerKeybuk, i have acpi=force on04:22
srbakerjust a second04:23
Keybuksrbaker: that's nice ... that's not what I asked :o)04:23
Keybuknoapic  turns off APIC support, APIC != ACPI04:23
Keybukpci=noacpi  turns off ACPI for IRQ routeing ... on a laptop as old as yours, that might be bust04:23
mjg592.6.9 has the useful feature that it doesn't enable the APIC if the BIOS disabled it04:24
mjg59Which is the sane behaviour04:24
Keybukheh, Linux in "ignoring BIOS" shocker04:24
mjg59<2.6.9 will force enable the APIC by default. Which is, uh, stupid.04:24
Keybukthough strangely my desktop's APIC isn't disabled by BIOS and needs noapic04:25
Keybukwhereas my laptop's is disabled by BIOS, but enabling it isn't harmful04:26
kylemhave there been any reports of lockups during the postinstall run of apt?04:26
Keybukkylem: you sure it's locking up, and not just thinking?04:27
srbakerokay, i lied.  the rest of the system was fine, the gnome was busted04:27
kylemKeybuk, numlock no longer works.04:27
srbakerwith noapic and pci=noacpi, the whole system slows down04:27
kylemit seems to die at "Preconfiguring" just after "Extracting templates" but before making any package-specific output.04:28
srbakerKeybuk, still no change.04:30
srbakerKeybuk, i tried with noapic and nolapic, ntohing better.04:30
srbakerKeybuk, sarge seems to work fine, if i use acpi=force and nothing else04:31
sabdflhornbeck, plovs: we're updated the wiki software04:36
sabdflalso, removed the ability to add non-wiki pages to /wiki/04:36
sabdfland i'm moving some of the non-wiki stuff that was in /wiki/ to /support/documentation/04:36
srbakerokay, this is going to have to wait04:36
sid77bye averyone04:45
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=== robertj [~robertj@66-188-77-153.cpe.ga.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
robertjhey all. Is there a problem with SDL's configuration? Battle for Wesnoth does not give sound unless you elevate your permissions05:04
robertja sudo true && wesnoth is enough to get the job done05:05
tsengsearch/file @ bugzilla for that05:06
plovssabdfl, are you updating or did you finish it and where did my pages go? (i don't care i was just playing,but they're gone)05:28
sabdflplovs: not gone05:28
sabdfli wrote ^^^ that i was moving them05:28
sabdflwe only want wiki pages in the /wiki/ directory, thanks for finding that bug :-)05:29
sabdflso we've fixed it now you can only create wiki pages in there05:29
sabdfland i've moved your folders to /support/ and /support/documentation/05:29
plovssabdfl, ok05:29
sabdflplovs: please take care with what you write on the site, it can get published immediately05:29
sabdfldid you have a cold?05:30
sabdfl"Workig with video on your Ububtu Desktop" >:-)05:30
plovssabdfl, yes, this is eastern europe it's already cold here :)05:35
sabdflthis is london it's always wet here05:35
plovssabdfl, where should we work, in support or in wiki, or both?05:36
sabdflplovs: i think it's best to develop new stuff in the wiki05:36
sabdflbecause every member can edit content there05:36
sabdflmore open05:36
sabdflthen when the content is stable, move it into the doc area05:37
plovssabdfl, ok, can we have a toplink to the wiki then?05:38
plovssabdfl, at the top of the page it says: ubuntu community support planet <EMPTY>05:39
plovssabdfl, <EMPTY> could be wiki05:39
sabdflwhich page?05:41
sabdflplovs: ^?05:42
plovson:site-edit press:home, now i can't get to the wiki05:43
sabdflplovs: yes, i took it out of the "published" state05:45
sabdfluntil monday when we have moved the content across successfully05:45
sabdflyou can still get there with site-edit.../wiki/05:46
plovssabdfl, sure, thanks05:49
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plovssabdfl, one last bug, there is edit, preview but no cancel???05:50
plovssabdfl, on the wiki that is05:51
sabdflplovs: hmmm.... i don't think it saves it if you don't click save05:52
sabdflbut you're right, there should be a cancel button05:52
plovssabdfl, where do i send these kind of questions ubuntu-devel ubuntu-doc, irc?05:54
plovssabdfl, hmmm and I can no longer create folders in wiki, but i can in support?05:57
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sabdflplovs: hmm... not sure what the situation is with the wiki and folders06:07
plovssabdfl, i have add page but not like i used to have add folder, etc. I made a page private, then I could no longer access it ???06:10
plovssabdfl, permissions seem messed up06:10
sabdflplovs: this is all new, we'll have to work out the permissions06:11
sabdflfirst, which page, i'll restore it06:11
plovsin the root of the wiki, called page.2004 i hadn't named it, i tried not saving as a way to cancel...doesn't work :) anyway i go have dinner06:15
sabdflplovs: can't see it, i think it was never saved06:19
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mdzsabdfl: the plone wiki doesn't seem to support the hierarchical moin structure properly06:49
mdzI can't seem to link to the parent of a page, or another page relative to it06:49
mdzit just reverts my change06:50
sabdflmdz: https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewWikiAnnouncement/06:50
sabdflwe have a limited number of options06:51
sabdflfor the moment i think it best just to shorten and rename06:51
sabdflWartyWarthog/ReleaseSchedule -> WartyReleaseSchedule06:51
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sabdflgood news though, we got moin table support unexpectedly soon06:52
mdzI'd gladly give up tables for hierarchies06:53
sabdflwe can sort of get them06:53
sabdflwe can add new wikis inside old ones possibly06:53
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Hoary Trail! | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE | Hoary kickoff meeting Monday, 2004-10-25 1600UTC
sabdflbut the namespaces are then b0rked06:53
sabdflso, inside a subsidiary wiki you would not be able to refer to pages in the parent folder06:54
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sabdflmdz: maybe we can use interwiki links for the hierarchies07:09
sabdflbut it would mean that every link in a subsidiary directory to a page in the top dir would need to be like MainWiki:PageName07:09
sabdflunless we did some funky acquisition voodoo07:09
sabdflalso, this new wiki has the concept of wiki structure separate from namespace07:10
sabdfltry clicking on "wiki contents"07:10
sabdflyou can reparent a page by going to the page, putting the new parent page name in the field at the bottom and selecting "reparent"07:10
mdzsabdfl: sounds scary07:14
sabdflmdz: not really07:15
mdzsabdfl: where is the documentation for ReStructuredText?07:15
sabdfltry it07:15
mdzah, I see it07:15
sabdfllinks are a little funky07:15
plovssabdfl, what about folders?07:15
sabdflplovs: no go for the moment07:15
mdzit uses all of the same markup as moinmoin, but with _entirely different meanings_ :-)07:16
sabdflstevea is workiing on a python script to suck 'n blow :-)07:16
sabdflmdz: but of course07:16
sabdflso we may have the stuff automatically transferred07:16
sabdflhow deep are the hardware folders?07:16
mdzjust 2 levels, I think07:16
sabdflneed to flatten the namespace graciously07:17
sabdflmdz: the reparenting thing is entirely independent of content07:17
plovssabdfl, could i get the python script from stevea, when he is ready?07:17
mdzsabdfl: yeah, it's just that someone just spent a lot of volunteer time to break it down and make a hierarchy out of it :-/07:18
sabdflmdz: not really anything we can do about it, except break the wiki spec in a different way to moin's07:18
sabdflplovs: to run it? it will only need to be run once07:18
plovssabdfl, i would like to make a script to export stuff from to wiki to docbook, i could use his code as foundation07:19
sabdflplovs ok ping him directly07:20
sabdflbut i don't think he will be parsing the content, except for the namespace issue07:20
sabdflmainly it will just be "fetch from here, post to there"07:20
plovssabdfl, ok07:21
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mdzsabdfl: how should we go about publishing USNs on the website?  Should we use the Errata facility?07:27
sabdflmdz: yes, let's create a dedicated folder for them, which we can also publish as rss07:28
mdzsabdfl: how do I do that?07:28
sabdflno idea :-)07:28
mdzI see how to create errata, but not a new folder07:28
sabdflfiddle with that to do the rss07:29
sabdflwhere do you want the folder?07:29
mdzdunno. support?07:29
mdzor maybe even at top level07:30
sabdflhmm... security feels like it deserves its own top level folder, but that way lies madness07:30
sabdflstop DOING that! :-)07:30
mdzmany projects have security as a top-level item because it's important to be able to find it quickly07:30
mdzthough, it's under a 'support' heading07:31
sabdflok, let's create it in support07:31
mdze.g., www.debian.org and www.freebsd.org both have a hyperlink from the top level, but it's nested under 'support'07:31
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mdzredhat has a shortcut from the top07:32
plovssabdfl, 1) do we have homepages 2) pages are signed with a number not a name07:32
mdzsabdfl: I think we've found The Wart, by the way07:32
sabdflplovs: (1) maybe, (2) bug :-)07:32
mdza patch was inadvertently dropped in the last kernel rev07:32
sabdfli'd like the answer to be (1) yes and (2) fixed, will know this week07:33
mdza trivial one which fixed a bunch of apic/IRQ/etc. problems07:33
sabdflplovs: ping lulu monday?07:33
sabdflmdz: The Wart?07:33
mdzsabdfl: the one that would make me wish I could go back in time and fix it07:33
plovssabdfl, ok07:33
sabdflso let's fix it for the cd's07:33
mdzI think it's madness at this point to change what "Ubuntu 4.10" means07:34
sabdflwait a week, it can be 4.11 07:34
=== sabdfl ducks
=== mdz digs around for his "sabdfl says no point releases" quote
sabdflout of curiousity what's the bug, what's the fix, where did we introduce it?07:35
sabdflno point releases, but there's no point in printing the cd's with a known fixable Wart07:35
sabdflwe'll find a way07:36
sabdflis the install cd maxed out in size?07:36
mdzsabdfl: we were building the kernel with a particular option enabled07:36
mdzwhich was flaky07:36
sabdflwhich one?07:36
mdzit is =y and should be =n07:36
sabdflis the install cd full?07:37
mdzit was disabled in, with good results07:37
mdzand apparently it was inadvertently re-enabled in -1607:37
mdzthe install cd is not full07:37
sabdflbad day down under?07:37
sabdfli'm thinking one way out would be to put the updated kernel package on the install cd in a separate dir07:38
sabdflbut i guess there's no hook to find and install it other tha an erratum sheet07:38
sabdfland that would be a usability mess07:38
mdzbetter to put it in warty-updates, in my opinion07:38
plovssabdfl, my last wiki-question, then i'll leave it for monday but quick restructured text doesn't work on my side?07:38
sabdfldoesn't work how?07:39
sabdflmdz: your call, but i'm not at all averse to rev'ing the shipit cd with warty-updates content07:39
plovssabdfl, look at: https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/EditingWikiPages07:39
mdzsabdfl: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=266207:40
mdzhas some details07:40
sabdflplovs: check the format list at the bottom of the page07:40
sabdflyou have selected StructuredText07:40
sabdflwhich is not the same as ReStructured Text07:40
mdzsabdfl: herbert proposed sneaking it into a security update, but I consider that evil in the extreme07:41
=== sabdfl blinks and stares
sabdflso we have warty-updates and warty-security?07:43
sabdflwhich appears in the sources.list file?07:44
mdzwarty-security is in sources.list by default, warty-updates is not07:44
mdzchanging behaviour in a security update would be a serious breach of trust, especially this early07:45
sabdflwarty-updates makes sense to me for a more long-lived release07:46
sabdflor, a release of a sort that will have rare releases07:46
sabdfllike if we did an "enterprise grade"07:46
sabdflbut, the flip side is that maybe this is the basis of that effort07:46
sabdflthe -updates archive becomes the place where warty matures to become warty-enterprise07:47
sabdflthere's no rule that says that the CD we ship has to be exactly the same as the download07:48
sabdflour options w.r.t. the cd and iso are as follows:07:48
sabdfldo nothing, continue to ship iso and cd as they were on 20/1007:49
sabdflship the cd with a fixed kernel07:49
sabdflupdate both07:49
cenerentoladoes anybody here know what fnfx are?07:49
sabdflis it very importnt that the through-the-mail cd be the same as the download one?07:50
mdzsabdfl: I feel that it is, yes07:51
sabdflmdz: ok, the errata content type is special07:51
plovssabdfl, i should leave it for monday but search as i may i don not see format at the bottom of any of my pages not edit, not contents, not view, monday->lulu?07:51
mdzwe cause a lot of confusion if we don't have a single blob that we call Warty07:51
sabdflplovs: edit the page07:51
sabdflat the bottom, near the save button, are some radio buttons07:51
sabdflwith the format07:51
mdzof course we could do point releases :-)07:51
sabdflyou currently have it on structured text07:52
sabdflso, about errata, it at the moment only shows up inside the help center errata thing07:52
sabdflwhich is support/documentation/errata07:52
mdzwell, we should have a page for security info07:53
mdzwhich would link to errata07:53
plovssabdfl, sorry no buttons here, you are probably admin or something07:54
sabdfl  mdz: yes07:54
plovssabdfl, i'll log out and back in07:55
sabdfldo you want to be able to categories the USNs?07:55
mdzsabdfl: not really07:57
mdzjust enumerate them07:57
mdzsabdfl: should we have one group of errata for security, and another for warty-updates stuff?07:57
sabdflmdz: yes, that sounds good07:57
sabdfland just one stream for all releases07:58
mdzok, let me know when there is a place for me to put the USNs07:58
mdzsabdfl: we should have a feed which has only security07:59
plovssabdfl, no, no buttons under edit, next to save, only a void, emptyness07:59
mdzI hope plone lets us do that07:59
sabdflplovs: weird07:59
plovssabdfl, something with permissions probably, you want my login?07:59
sabdflmdz: shiny08:02
sabdflplovs: could be08:02
sabdflmdz: what's the first USN number?08:03
sabdflor a url?08:03
mdzsabdfl: I was creating it just now, should I not?08:03
mdzthe first is USN-1-108:03
sabdflmdz: creating it in the documentation/usn folder?08:04
mdzsabdfl: correct08:04
sabdflyou're too fast :-)08:04
sabdflgo ahead08:04
sabdflshiny that it asks you the product versions08:04
sabdflregarding the streams: yes, one for security, one for updates08:05
sabdfleach stream covers all releases08:05
mdzsabdfl: the 'upload a file' bit for the body doesn't seem to work08:06
mdzI end up with an empty body08:06
mdz(sounds uncomfortable)08:06
sabdflas opposed to an empty mind08:07
sabdflhow on earth you survive in LA i don't know08:07
sabdflmaybe i'm just always there with the wrong crowd08:07
plovssabdfl, in /support/ it all works... including quick restructured text, but /wiki/ is broken08:07
sabdflhey! next time i go i can have a pony tail too!08:07
mdzsabdfl: entirely possible08:07
sabdflplovs: ok, please work with bradb and lulu on monday08:08
mdzthere are many social strata, and most of them are unsavory08:08
=== sabdfl feels all warm as a result
mdzI find that's true of most places anyway08:08
sabdflyou don't have to look very far08:08
sabdflbut LA has something extra in that regard08:08
plovssabdfl, ok08:09
sabdflplovs: sorry i can't solve the problem, just don't know plone that well08:09
sabdflif at all08:09
plovssabdfl, that makes two, then ;)08:10
mdzpublished usn-1-1 and usn-2-108:11
sabdflplovs: would you like me to fix that specific page for you?08:11
__danielis there an announcement on warty-security?08:11
amu2 :)08:12
mdz__daniel: the mailing list is ubuntu-security-announce, and they were sent ~12 hours ago08:12
sabdflmdz: somehow usn1 is in usn208:12
mdzi'm just putting them on the website now08:12
mdzsabdfl: yeah, cut and paste error, already fixed08:12
mdzsabdfl: you're too fast :-)08:12
__danielmdz, ok, thanks08:12
sabdfljust tryin' to keep up08:12
plovssabdfl, maybe clean up the mess of empty pages, leave only good content, i'll work in support until monday08:13
plovssabdfl, thanks 08:14
sabdflplovs: hell don't thank me, i must thank you for your work08:14
sabdfldocs are a great contribution08:15
mdzsabdfl: I wrote an overview "how to get help" doc in the wiki08:17
mdzsabdfl: I think it should have a prominent place on the website, as a starting point for support08:17
mdzperhaps as a how-to, with a quick link from somewhere high up08:17
sabdflmdz: go ahead and add it to the home page08:18
mdzrestructuredtext MUST be joking08:23
mdzSystem Message: WARNING/2 (<string>, line 2)08:23
mdzTitle underline too short.08:23
mdzI can't seriously be required to match the length of the underline to the length of the text08:23
mdzit's displayed in a proportionally spaced font, even!08:24
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mdzsabdfl: should we really recommend this as the format for new pages?08:25
mdzthe restructuredtext guys have been hanging out with the arch guys08:26
Keybukrofl, them's fighting words?!08:27
sabdflmdz: we've now got moin too08:30
mdzI was just following the instructions, which say that restructured is the way to go08:30
mdzbut I beg to differ08:30
sabdflwritten before we go moin tables08:30
mdzHTML is easier than this08:30
sabdflyes, restructured felt like a pain at first to me too08:31
sabdflbut it has a certain inflexibility that appeals to my inner fascist08:31
sabdflstill, that's no reason to foist it on the masses08:31
sabdflin this case08:31
sabdflso let's hammer that out with the experts on monday08:32
mdzwhat should I do with this howto for now?08:32
Keybukis there any particular reason we're using a new wiki, and didn't just get jeff to do a moin theme to make it look like the rest of the site?08:32
mdzKeybuk: this way it can be searched, etc. with the rest of the site08:32
sabdflkeybuk: *much* better integrated08:32
sabdflmdz: html if you prefer08:32
sabdflh1/2/3 and p 08:32
mdzthe wiki seems mostly OK08:32
Keybukbut we've lost all the changes information; which was the bit I used to read08:33
sabdflkeybuk, you can still read it08:33
mdzmy understanding is that it will come back08:33
sabdflturns out the new one has it already08:33
sabdflum... you may have to be a manager to see it08:33
mdzI'll just leave it as-is and unpublished until we have a standard high-level markup08:33
sabdflhistory tab 08:33
sabdfldefault to just showing the last diff in pretty colours but you can get more08:34
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Keybukah ok, that's not too bad then08:35
sabdfland we get backlinks08:35
sabdfland renaming08:35
mdzone thing I could live without, is white text on a red background08:35
sabdfland much better search08:35
plovskupu is nice but it creates html08:35
sabdflwhite text on red background?08:35
sabdfltry the black text on red background :-)08:36
mdzsabdfl: the active tab, the headings on navigation and recent items08:36
sabdflthe theme is all temporary08:36
mdzthe currently highlighted navigation item08:36
sabdfli want to get te content and function right first08:36
Keybukthe login stuff never seems to work right :(08:36
sabdflthen we can get a design done and implemented quickly08:36
sabdflKeybuk: use the magic url08:36
Keybukwell, I click login, put in the details, and get an error page back08:36
sabdflthere are cacheing issues with just loggin straight in08:36
Keybukthen some pages I visit thing I'm logged in, then some don't08:37
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sabdfldoes adobe have a recent acrobat for linux?08:41
plovssabdfl, define decent08:42
__danielsabdfl, isnt it the one marillat has packaged? (you mean the reader)08:42
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sabdflthe reader, yes08:42
plovssabdfl, it works, but the windows one is way better08:42
amucooooool forrest gump runs on tv, i love this film08:56
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Mitariohello everyone08:57
Mitariodamn, ubuntu livecd is awsome :)08:57
__danielhai Mitario08:58
amuMitario: *g* 09:01
__danieloh... no glademm-package? :-(09:04
__danielwho should i adress with my "wish"? :-)09:08
cenerentolasorry what are the main characteristic of the live thing?09:33
cenerentolayou could at leat pretend to listen09:43
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cenerentolasorry the stupid question but how can i contribute with the installer translation?09:54
cenerentolakamion: got time for an humble question?09:58
Keybukit's Saturday night, I doubt he's anywhere near a computer10:02
cenerentolakeybuk: you are... so who/where should i ask/look to for the installer translation10:03
Keybukthose three links look good10:05
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srbakercan someone here help me go through my lappy problems and troubleshoot them?10:20
sivangsrbaker : you might try and ask this on #ubuntu10:21
Keybukindeed, #ubuntu and ubuntu-users is the right place for tech-support and problems10:23
Keybukmuch busier with more people likely to be able to help10:23
sivanghi keybuk, what's up?10:24
Keybukprice of beetroot10:24
Keybukit's up10:24
sivangwhat is beetroot?10:24
Keybukyou have it in salads10:25
sivangso all RC stuff are done (if to judge by the channel's topic) ? :)10:27
Keybukyes, any RC bugs now open are open against hoary10:28
sivangI see. well, good :)10:28
sivangHave you had a nice doze of beers post release?10:28
Keybukyeah, a few of us had a bit of a party in London10:29
sivangah that's great, shame I am way far on the middle east :))10:30
sivangKamion : around?11:22
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srbaker_jdub, seems to be working now.11:43
srbaker_jdub, who's fault is the Human theme for Gnome?11:43
srbaker_jdub, my lappy11:44
jdubwhich part of the theme?11:44
srbaker_oh, the theem is fine except for the window border colour11:44
srbaker_diarrhea brown.11:45
srbaker_i had to switch to Glider11:47
srbaker_yaye.  i found the ubuntu porjhn11:48
srbaker_now, isn't there ubuntu porn for the splash screen as well?11:48
srbaker_how do i change my splash screen?11:49
__danielsrbaker_, with gtweakui :-)11:49
jdubin gconf, /apps/gnome-session/11:49
__danieloh.. not packaged in ubuntu11:49
__daniel(i was referring to gtweakui)11:50
chrisaAdd sid sources, pin and install from sid ;)11:50
__danielchrisa, that's a good idea - would that be a general "course of action" if i'd like to contribute packages (if someone was interested in that at all)11:52
chrisaI'm the last person to ask11:53
srbaker_god damn.11:54
srbaker_if i wanted sid sources, i'd use sid :P11:55
__danielwell... first i wanted to reply to you and then i changed my mind and wanted to ask the rest of the channel too11:55
__danielchrisa, thanks for the clue :-)11:55
srbaker_is it considered a bug that emacs isn't anywhere to be found in the app menu?12:00

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