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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 08 Dec 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
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01:47	Seveas	arzajac, so you can make it after all :)
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02:49	zakame	hi bhuvan :)
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02:54	Seveas	ha 6 minutes to zero-hour
02:54	Seveas	Back home just in time
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=== mhz would like a little chat with hno73 after meeting, possible?
02:56	hno73	mhz: sure
02:56	jjesse	i'll be back for probablly the end of the meeting, gotta switch work locations
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02:56	mhz	hno73: thx
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02:57	zyga	when is the CC meeting?
02:57	zyga	in 6 minutes?
02:57	Seveas	3 minutes
02:57	nalioth	in about 4 minutes
02:57	zyga	not at 22:00?
02:57	Seveas	no
02:57	zyga	k, glad I've joined earlier ;]
02:57	zyga	heh
02:57	zakame	er 2 minutes from now
02:58	Kyral	whew in the nick of time
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02:58	Seveas	zyga, make sure your wikipage is up to date
02:58	Seveas	i've seen you busy in #ubuntu-? but that work is not listed
02:58	zyga	Seveas: I made minor updates
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02:58	zyga	Seveas: just below the 'Update:'
02:59	MagicFab	Gd'morning
02:59	Seveas	MagicFab, have you been working with mako on your wikipage?
02:59	MagicFab	Seveas: no, alone ;) asked mako for feedback but didn't get any
02:59	MagicFab	(by email)
02:59	Seveas	ah
02:59	Kamion	mako: you didn't vote on mhz at the last meeting; are you ready to do so?
03:00	Kamion	(thus contrary to what the agenda claims, mhz wasn't approved
03:00	Kamion	)
03:00	ogra	is he around ?
03:00	Seveas	*DING* 14:00 UTC
03:00	ogra	any sabdfl in sight ?
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03:00	Kamion	elmo: around?
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03:01	Seveas	mako, LaserJock, raphink, Kyral, kjcole *ping*
03:01	raphink	hello everybody :)
03:01	Kyral	I'm here
03:02	kiko	hey there
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
03:02	LaserJock	here
03:02	raphink	Seveas: hehe i'm here :)
03:02	Seveas	mhz, smurf
03:02	Seveas	*ping* too
=== smurf is here ;-)
=== mhz is here
03:02	Seveas	We'll have to wait for the CC members to show up
03:03	mhz	in the meantime, Greeting Ubunteros :)
03:03	kiko	greetings
03:03	Seveas	hi
03:03	MarioMeyer_	hi :P
03:03	Madpilot	morning, everyone
=== Kamion reaches for the list of phone number
03:03	Kamion	s
03:03	robotgeek	morning...coffee time
03:04	StevenK	Speaking of morning, it's neatly 1am here. :-/
03:04	Seveas	Kamion, aren't they on speed dial yet? :)
03:04	mhz	StevenK: thx for being here, then
03:04	ogra	Kamion, sabdfl just mailed me, he seems awake and in reach of a PC
03:04	Madpilot	0600 here :(
03:04	kjcole	No rest for the wicked.
=== Kyral reaches for caffine
03:04	LaserJock	Madpilot: me too
03:04	ogra	but i bet he forgot about the early time today
03:04	MagicFab	I invited Corey Burger and Daniel RObitaille but it's 6AM for them :(
03:04	mhz	Madpilot: very early, thx
03:04	Kamion	elmo's coming
03:05	StevenK	mhz: I went to bed early, and my wife woke me at 0000
03:05	mhz	MagicFab: i'm glad you're here
03:05	jsgotangco	hehe
03:05	kjcole	New Ubunutu project: Tivo for #ubuntu-meetings.  (Better than log files.) ;-)
03:05	Seveas	it's conveniently 15:00 here :)
03:05	mhz	StevenK: hehehe, that happens all the time if you have kids too
=== jsgotangco is babysitting at the moment
03:05	elmo	ok, here
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03:05	Seveas	hi elmo
03:06	\sh	morning gentlemen
03:06	Kamion	elmo: do you know where Mark is at the moment?
03:06	raphink	hi \sh
03:06	mhz	morning \sh
03:06	elmo	somewhere in the US
03:06	elmo	he probably won't be up for a couple of hours
03:06	zakame	hi mhz :D
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03:07	mhz	zakame: helloz
03:07	kjcole	Hullo, all.
03:07	elmo	unless we snagged mako, quorum might be hard
03:07	Kamion	apparently he just sent e-mail, I'll try his mobile
03:07	mhz	kjcole: is your page updated
03:07	zakame	elmo: thanks for adding me to the keyring today :-)
03:07	zakame	evening \sh :)
03:07	Kamion	sabdfl is being summoned
03:08	Seveas	hehe
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03:08	Seveas	hi jbailey
03:08	kjcole	mhz: Not recently...
03:08	mhz	kjcole: well, it looked good to me :)
03:08	jbailey	Seveas: hi
03:09	jsgotangco	summoning powers
=== mhz plays Magic, the Gathering, and plays 9 lands to summon sabdfl
03:10	Kyral	hehe
03:10	zakame	mhz: wow
03:11	dholbach	mhz: dunno, if 9 are enough, you might have to tap all your artifacts too
03:11	mhz	lol!
03:11	Kyral	dangit dholbach beat me to it :D
=== StevenK ponders something to eat.
=== Seveas casts a fireball and burns all Magic cards
=== zakame hasn't played Magic for a looong time :(
03:11	Kamion	s/summoned/hunted/ apparently
03:11	mhz	Seveas: boooh, you killed out entertainment
=== Madpilot ponders caffeine
03:11	mhz	:)
03:11	jsgotangco	good luck on summoning sabdfl in th snow
03:11	jsgotangco	heh
=== dholbach neither... like 7-8 years
=== Kyral plays a Moment's Peace and blocks the fireball
03:11	Kamion	can we sort out meeting times in the meantime maybe?
03:11	Seveas	mhz, bofh.ntk.net
03:12	Seveas	hours of entertainment
03:12	Kamion	although we don't have mako which makes that awkward
03:12	kjcole	jsgotangco: Did he get caught in it?
03:12	Seveas	http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html <-- that one i mean
03:12	mako	i'm here
03:12	mhz	Seveas: jsgotangco could tell us about mobile entretainment for our Sharp Zaurus, maybe?
03:12	Seveas	greetings, mako
03:13	jsgotangco	mako!!!!
03:13	Kamion	mako: aha, we can start then
03:13	Seveas	we could start now if sabdfl is evasive, let's do the naming round
=== mhz *sighs*
=== Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker
03:13	mako	sorry i'm a bit late.. i need like 1 minute to get organized
03:13	zakame	hello mako :)
=== ogra is OliverGrawert
03:13	kjcole	Hi, mako.  (And thanks -- I think -- for the speedy order on the CD's.  Or thank whoever's responsible.)
=== MarioMeyer_ is Mario Meyer
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
=== \sh is Stephan Hermann
=== nalioth is Marek Spruell
03:13	kiko	mako!
=== Kamion is Colin Watson
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
=== StevenK is Steve Kowalik
=== Kyral is Chris Peterman
=== jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
=== mhz is MauricioHernandez
=== mako is benjamin mako hill
=== Madpilot is Brian Burger
=== LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
=== kiko is ChristianReis
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=== zakame is Zak Elep
=== bhuvan is Bhuvaneswaran
=== azeem is Michael Banck
=== raphink is Raphal Pinson
=== robotgeek is VenkatRaghavan
03:14	Seveas	arzajac, there?
=== hno73 is Henrik Omma
03:14	Seveas	ubuntugeek, there?
=== MagicFab is Fabian Rodriguez
03:14	Kamion	sabdfl's on his way
03:15	zyga	(everyone needs to say their name?)
03:15	Kamion	the ubuntite/ubuntero thing is first on the agenda
=== smurf is Matthias Urlichs
03:16	Kamion	so to alleviate confusion from those bug reports, Ubuntite/Ubuntero simply means that you've signed the code of conduct, and conceptually it should be a prerequisite for membership/maintainership (although I'm not sure if Launchpad actually implements that)
03:16	jsgotangco	it does
03:16	Kamion	I'm also not sure that it really matters that much what it's called, or why the CC needs to decide on it :-)
03:16	elmo	Kamion: it doesn't
03:17	Seveas	ok, but which one is the official word for person-who-signed-the-coc-and-pledged-allegiance-to-ubuntu :)
03:17	Kamion	kiko: I assumed sabdfl had renamed it to Ubuntero, which would kind of make it official
03:17	Kamion	did somebody explicitly ask for it to be brought up here?
03:17	Seveas	yes, kiko
03:17	mako	it was originally ubuntite
03:17	elmo	Kamion: implement it as a prerequisite for membership, I mean.  the only thing signed_CoC enforces is ubuntu.com email
03:17	Kamion	Seveas: I'm asking kiko if somebody asked him
03:17	kiko	well
03:17	kiko	yes
03:17	kiko	it's been asked on a number of occasions
03:17	mako	that is what was written in the process documents
03:17	kiko	we need to change the wording in Launchpad
03:17	Seveas	Kamion, ah, sorry /me grabs glasses
03:18	kiko	I just want to make sure that this is the definitive answer
03:18	mako	but if sabdfl has very strong feelings, that's fine
03:18	Kamion	it was changed from Ubuntite to Ubuntero in Launchpad
=== mako nods
03:18	mako	i saw that
03:18	mako	i was a little a confused..
03:18	kiko	(I personally think Ubuntu member is a better name but ignore my opinions :-P)
03:18	kiko	now
03:18	kiko	there are places that still say Ubuntite
03:18	Seveas	kiko, Ubuntero != member
03:18	ogra	its pre-membership
03:18	kiko	the reason this happened is because it was hacked in by a certain person
03:18	Kamion	why not just stick a tooltip/link on it explaining what it means? even I think the wording is confusing
03:18	kiko	okay
03:18	kiko	we will
03:18	kiko	however
03:19	Kamion	but that's a launchpad development issue
03:19	kiko	I want someone to:
03:19	kiko	a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
03:19	kiko	b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
03:19	kiko	we all know how mark is with email and requests
03:19	Kamion	in this case it wasn't at all the CC's fault, but OK :-)
03:20	kiko	and I want to make sure we don't drop the ball so often
03:20	mako	kiko: mark made this change right?
03:20	kiko	the fact that is says ubuntite and ubuntero in places makes me want to DIE
=== kiko turns his back to mako and whistles
03:20	Kamion	we're kind of at the point where we need a CC mailing list
03:20	Kamion	(i.e. the four of us)
03:20	ogra	kiko, we really dont wnat that you want to die
03:20	kiko	that is all on that topic from me :)
03:21	elmo	kiko: dude, this change was made directly in launchpad with no consultation with the CC - what exactly do you expect from us here?
03:21	kiko	well
03:21	kiko	I'll put it this way
03:21	mako	kiko: it was *always* ubuntite and not particularly controversial AFAIK..
03:21	elmo	kiko: we've got about as much chance of fixing this as you have of demanding sabdfl always add tests when he commits
03:21	mako	kiko: now, the alternative is not particularly controversial either
03:21	ogra	mako, until sabdfl changed it :)
03:21	mako	it's just a name and i, for one, am not going to fight anyone over it
=== sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:21	ogra	there he is
03:21	sabdfl	morning all
03:21	Seveas	there's the guilty one!
03:22	kiko	lol. well, people here seem to know something about the word "ubuntero", while the first time I saw this was in a launchpad landing. :)
03:22	sabdfl	sorry to be late, didn't hear about it till breakfast
03:22	Kamion	Definitive name for Ubuntero: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/5317 (ChristianReis)
03:22	Kamion	sabdfl: ^-- point on agenda
03:22	jsgotangco	hehe
=== kiko looks at sabdfl
03:22	Kamion	kiko: we only know it because (a) it randomly came up in random people's blogs like a year and a half ago, (b) we all saw it in launchpad
03:22	Kamion	14:19 < kiko> I want someone to:
03:22	Kamion	14:19 < kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
03:22	Kamion	14:19 < kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
03:23	mako	sabdfl: it was originally ubuntite.. LP code seems to now call it ubuntero in some but not all places
03:23	kiko	this is a bit confusing to me but okay. I thought the CC would deliberate on this sort of naming changes.
03:23	Kamion	sabdfl: is that something the CC can/should do? obviously we can hardly stop you from making changes in launchpad :-)
03:23	Seveas	Kamion, duct tape?
03:23	mako	i don't think anyone is going to fight over the name
03:23	mako	i'm not at least
03:23	sabdfl	ok
03:23	kiko	I'm not either
03:23	MagicFab	Kamion: articfacts ?
03:23	kjcole	I think folks who are not very far along in the process should be known as Ubunturists (Ubunt-tourists).
03:24	mako	but would like consistency :)
03:24	sabdfl	consistency is good :-)
03:24	zyga	heh
03:24	zakame	hi sabdfl :D
03:24	sabdfl	i changed it in the places i knew it existed, it's a bug as ubuntite anywhere
03:24	zyga	Ubuntu*ists could be exploited to many different and ackward names
03:24	sabdfl	though, someone did point out there is a gender issue in some languages
03:24	Seveas	sabdfl, ok, we will maill all occurences of ubuntite to you :)
03:25	mako	sabdfl: in what sense?
03:25	mako	sabdfl: in "ubuntero"
03:25	sabdfl	Seveas: rather file bugs on LP
03:25	elmo	mako: ubuntero is male?
03:25	nalioth	elmo: in latin cultures, yes
03:25	mako	ubuntite seems quite neutral
=== mako nods
03:25	Kamion	"Ubuntu" has case issues in some languages - my general opinion is "whatever" unless I'm actively sorting out translations
03:25	sabdfl	i cant remember, but in some languages it's definitely one or the other
03:25	MarioMeyer_	ubuntite would sound female in portuguese
03:25	raphink	yes ubuntero is definitely male
03:25	kjcole	sabdfl, Oops. Not thinking multi-lingually.  My mistake.
03:25	sabdfl	ubuntite seems a little uptite
03:25	MagicFab	Ubuntera would be female in spanish
=== mako likes ubuntite personally
03:26	mako	bbut only because people from seattle are seattlites
03:26	sabdfl	hmm... we could of course let people specify themselves
=== jsgotangco likes ubuntite too..its the original term i believe....
03:26	mako	sabdfl: no :)
03:26	mako	sabdfl: just choose one :)
03:26	MagicFab	Ubuntero/a would mean docs in spanish would have to accomodate for both (in some places)
03:26	bhuvan	+1 for ubuntite
=== smurf likes ubuntero
03:26	Kamion	sabdfl: as long as there's a link to what it means in lp so that people quit asking, I really don't care
03:27	Seveas	bhuvan, we're not voting :)
03:27	sabdfl	Kamion: +1
03:27	Kamion	and I don't think the CC should get into the bikeshed argument of which it should be
03:27	elmo	I think we shouldn't underestimate the gender-bias in ubuntero
=== jsgotangco feels ubuntero sounds like a mexican folk singer in costume
=== raphink likes ubuntero but thinks the male/female issue might be a pb
03:27	elmo	there's enough problems with barriers for women in IT without us adding potential new ones
03:27	\sh	sabdfl: is there no female/male/to be defined sex suffix for this in zulu?
03:27	dholbach	what's wrong with using "ubuntu member" and translating "member" in different languages shouldn't be hard - it doesn't sound cool, but it "works" :)
03:27	mako	i don't think gender-specific name for people who have signed the coc is a good idea
03:27	sabdfl	elmo: you and your lost causes ;-)
03:27	Kamion	dholbach: because it's *not* membership
03:27	kiko	ubuntera/ubuntero? :-P
03:27	mako	kiko: please no
03:27	raphink	dholbach: ubunteros are not necessarily members yet
03:27	MagicFab	UBunturist sounds great, although a bit long
03:27	sabdfl	UBUNTER(A/O)
03:28	zakame	jsgotangco: lol
03:28	sabdfl	ubunterrorista
03:28	kiko	lol
03:28	ogra	eek
03:28	\sh	ubunturist sounds like ubuntu terrorists
03:28	jsgotangco	that's jdub
=== jsgotangco hides
03:28	bhuvan	let it not be terrorist :)
03:28	dholbach	haha
03:28	Kamion	ok, this is what I mean about bikeshed arguments
03:28	Seveas	Jdubuntu :)
=== raphink looks around if there's no CIA agent
03:28	zakame	\sh: haha
03:28	mako	ubuntonians
03:28	kjcole	sabdfl, I think that one only applies to benevolent dictators...
03:28	zyga	debianities, genotooities, fedoraxies are thankfully non-existant, I agree with dholbach's suggeston for something simple, Kamion is right too
03:28	sabdfl	ok, leave it as it is, with a link to an explanation
03:28	Seveas	ok
03:28	sabdfl	next?
03:28	Seveas	more kiko
03:28	mako	sabdfl: wait..
03:28	elmo	umm
03:29	ogra	as is is broken
03:29	mako	the problem is that it's inconsistent
03:29	ogra	we need one name
03:29	zakame	yubs?
03:29	mako	does leave it as it is mean "make it all ubuntero"
03:29	StevenK	It's a name we have came up with. We can just declare it is gender-neutral, right?
03:29	elmo	StevenK: no
03:29	sabdfl	right, i was saying ubuntero is the current one, ubuntite is a bug, we can do a vote on it to settle how it should be
03:29	Seveas	mako, sabdfl said: File bugs when you see Ubuntite - inconsistency can not be solved right here right now :)
03:30	mako	cool
03:30	raphink	StevenK: not sure, in latin cultures it feels funny to call a female with -o name
03:30	kiko	well
03:30	sabdfl	raphink: not even really cool females?
03:30	smurf	sabdfl: I don't think so
=== Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:30	elmo	sabdfl: no
03:30	smurf	sabdfl: Spain is not Russia ;-)
=== bhuvan prays no new gender issue on ubuntero in future
03:31	raphink	sabdfl: let's see, females I see on linux systems like to be recognized as such even more than in other places most of the time...
03:31	\sh	.oO(what is a really cool female?"
03:31	Seveas	\sh, my fiancee :)
03:31	raphink	\sh: lol
=== ogra thinks ice princess
03:31	sabdfl	i have another 30 mins, guys
03:31	elmo	sabdfl: dude, I've already had people complain about this to me.  I'm not arguing for hypotheticals
=== alerios [n=alerios@63.245.87.62] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Abandonando"]
03:31	raphink	females who get to use Ubuntu deserve much ;)
03:31	\sh	Seveas: but she is not from a latin country, right? ,)
03:31	raphink	hehe
03:31	Seveas	\sh, no
03:31	Kamion	StevenK: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/ubuntu/1116733725 is the origin
=== jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:32	sabdfl	ok, i don't mind reverting to ubuntite, but i think it sounds trite and uptight :-)
03:32	ogra	lets move on ...
03:32	Kamion	it's expressly coming from idioms in other languages
03:32	Seveas	sabdfl, you should revert it anyway temporarily until we can come up with a Really Cool Name(tm)
03:32	mako	seems like next up is the typo in the CoC
03:32	kjcole	One could look at Esperanto rules and see if there's any kind of gender-neutral, language-neutral ending...
03:32	raphink	Seveas: lol
=== mhz thinks 'ubunter' is just perfect
03:33	Kamion	Typo in the Code of Conduct: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/3952 (ChristianReis)
03:33	Kamion	at least this one is definitely within the CC's purview ;-)
03:33	Seveas	indeed
03:33	Seveas	it means everyone will have to sign again
03:33	raphink	kjcole: names in esperanto finish with -o and are neutral. Male names finish with -ulo and female with -ino.
03:33	Seveas	raphink, we moved on already...
03:33	kiko	okay
03:33	sabdfl	those caps are a little scary
03:33	kiko	so there's a typo in the CoC
03:33	mhz	raphink: good point
03:33	sabdfl	we don't have to re-sign
03:33	Kamion	Seveas: no, there's no particular reason to require people to sign the most current version if it's just a typo cleanup
03:34	Seveas	ah ok
03:34	sabdfl	the system is smart enough to remember which version you signed
03:34	Kamion	it would have to be a new version, yes
03:34	sabdfl	and i think it has a list of currently valid versions
03:34	mako	i'm reading tha tcnetance and i can't even see the error
03:34	Seveas	if launchpad can handle multiple CoC's there's no problem
03:34	kiko	it can
03:34	sabdfl	s/it/is/
03:34	Kamion	while we're at it we should nominate somebody to do a general proofreading pass
03:34	mako	ah, ok
03:34	kiko	I just wanted to bring this matter to your attention
03:34	Kamion	I'm happy to volunteer for that
03:34	mako	sure, shhould bbe fixed
03:34	sabdfl	kiko: nicely done
03:34	kiko	sure
03:34	Seveas	who will fix it?
03:34	mhz	Kamion: would new versions include localisations?
03:34	ogra	Seveas, Kamion
03:35	Kamion	mhz: that's a separate issue
03:35	kiko	mhz, not yet, different topic.
03:35	mhz	okis
03:35	mako	mhz: we haven't talked about that
03:35	Seveas	.oO(Note to self: thorough proofreading of CoC for next meeting)
03:35	Kamion	ogra: I can't change launchpad
03:35	MagicFab	perhaps also include a reminder to people that have signed, whenever it changes
03:35	kiko	Seveas, I have someone to do that, I just want a new copy of the CoC, properly proofread.
03:35	ogra	Kamion, oh, misunderstood
03:35	kiko	I can also produce a list of people that have signed the old one
03:35	Kamion	Seveas: doesn't need to be in a meeting, I can just mail the CC a diff to make sure everyone's happy with the changes
03:35	sabdfl	mhz: we definitely want to do loclaisations of the CoC, just needs LP dev time
03:35	mako	kiko: well, go ahead and make that one-byte change
03:35	mako	it's uncontroversial
03:35	kiko	if we want to spam them to re-sign
03:35	sabdfl	kiko: no need for that no
03:36	Kamion	mako: I'd really like to avoid 1.0.1 1.0.2 etc. for successive one-byte changes
03:36	kiko	mako, I would rather only rev the version once this time
03:36	Seveas	kiko, neh, not for this change
03:36	kiko	ok
03:36	MagicFab	Kamion: align it with release cycles
03:36	mako	Kamion: so, wait until next week
03:36	kiko	I said spam for a reason :)
03:36	Kamion	shall I do this and mail launchpad@ with the diff once we're done
03:36	Kamion	MagicFab: no
03:36	mako	it's been there for a year, we can wait two weeks :)
03:36	mako	kiko: and no, i don't think people need to resign
=== sabdfl never noticed it before
03:36	bhuvan	we can post in mailing lists
03:36	Seveas	Kamion, sounds like a plan
03:36	Kamion	mako: it'll take ten minutes to do ;)
03:36	mhz	sabdfl: I asked because in case other people want to become members, I could ofer myself for the non-offcial version so they could at least understant what they'll face whn they sign
03:36	kiko	Kamion, that would be perfect.
03:36	kjcole	kiko, since you have a way of knowing who signed, is there a way to just automatically build that into some sort of announce mailing-list (broadcast only)?
03:37	sabdfl	mhz: we will do proper i18n for the CoC, just need to extend the system that tracks them
03:37	kiko	kjcole, not easily, but talk to me on #launchpad later about your use case and I'll see.
03:37	mako	yeah, i can take a look at it again also
=== mhz okis
03:37	mako	but people have a pretty amazing ability to see right through their own errors
03:37	Kamion	ok, NEXT :-)
03:38	Amaranth	mako: In more than just spelling and grammar. :)
03:38	Kamion	Automatix / forums nightmare argument issue
03:38	Kamion	are the relevant people actually here?
03:38	jsgotangco	forums...
03:38	robotgeek	I have a nice writeup here: http://robotgeek.org/cc.html
03:38	Amaranth	btw, holy crap i made it to a meeting
03:38	jsgotangco	haha
03:38	Seveas	automatix is the piece of crap that triggers reinstalls all over
03:38	Kyral	Seveas: Agreed :D
03:39	ogra	thats the one that breaks your sources.list, right ?
03:39	Kamion	robotgeek: thanks, please add that to the link farm on the agenda
03:39	robotgeek	that link provides all relevant background, and also provides the links to conversations in #ubuntuforums
03:39	Madpilot	and it's causing censorship problems in the forums...
03:39	Seveas	that last line may have been a violation of the CoC, but the script is SO DAMN STUPID, I already know of dozens of people who had to reinstall after using it
03:39	nalioth	automatix is just a symptom of the larger issue
03:39	Kamion	(which we'll probably move to somewhere else, but anyway)
03:39	robotgeek	Kamion: sorry, i came up with it two hours ago. will do right away
03:39	Kyral	It adds the PLF repos for one thing...
03:39	zakame	er
03:39	mako	"thereby violating my rights given to me by GPL": i don't think you mean that
03:40	Kamion	so I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the post-deletions issue I've seen; however we have not yet heard the administration say their piece
=== chmj [n=chmj@dsl-146-143-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:40	robotgeek	mako: it was GPL'ed, and they did not allow me to post my changes?
03:40	Kamion	and I don't particularly want us to hold a trial in absentia
03:40	ogra	and they are not here it seems
=== raphink wonders why magic scripts like automatix or easyubuntu are not replaced by series of inter-dependent packages in multiverse
03:40	Seveas	Kamion, indeed, but the forum administrators seem not to like coming to meetings
03:40	Amaranth	raphink: work on that was done where it made sense
03:40	Seveas	the almost always miss them
03:41	Amaranth	Yeah, the forum has really seemed to distance itself.
03:41	nalioth	are the ubuntuforums 'official' ?
03:41	Kyral	raphink: The reason why is because the majority of what they do is pull in things like w32codecs and SunJava
03:41	Seveas	nalioth, yes
03:41	Amaranth	no
03:41	Amaranth	err, since when?
03:41	ogra	yes
03:41	Seveas	since a long time already
03:41	ogra	warty
03:41	raphink	Kyral: well then it's not useful
03:41	mako	robotgeek: it would only be a GPL issue if you let you distribute the binary but not the source
03:41	jsgotangco	since we started paying part of the hosting...
03:41	Kamion	nalioth: yes, and Canonical contributes to their funding
03:41	robotgeek	mako: it's a bash script :)
03:41	Amaranth	ah
03:41	mako	robotgeek: this is a social problem, not a licensingg isssue
03:42	robotgeek	mako: agreed
03:42	mako	robotgeek: lets focus on the real issue
03:42	Amaranth	any canonical employees have any powers on the forum?
03:42	Amaranth	or any ubuntu members, even?
03:42	jsgotangco	no idea
03:42	nalioth	i think the forums needs a check-call, because there are major problems there. they seem to think the forums are not part of the ubuntu community as a whole
03:42	Kamion	Amaranth: a number of forums folks are members
03:42	Kyral	I believe UbuntuGeek is a Member
03:42	Seveas	Amaranth, most of the forum staff are members
03:42	Seveas	so they should (but don't) respect the code of conduct
03:42	Kamion	but there are no Canonical employees in the administration to my knowledge (which is probably how it should be)
03:42	jjesse	it seems every meeting lately there are issues w/ the forums
03:42	jsgotangco	agreed
03:43	mako	alright, the accusations are flying hard and heavy
03:43	ogra	jjesse, yes, but the people never appear here
03:43	mako	the forums are *huge*
03:43	Amaranth	Kamion: I can see both sides of that one but I'd think having at least a mod would be a good thing.
03:43	MagicFab	PLF repos and ubuntu-fr docs are very non-free friendly - post install info includes Skype, msttfonts, MP3, etc.
03:43	mako	they are a massive portion of the ubuntu community
03:43	MagicFab	ubuntu-fr.org , that is
03:43	jjesse	ogra: if they don't appear here, then how can we deal w/ them here?
03:43	mako	in terms of raw numbers, they are quite likely the largest part
03:43	ogra	jjesse, thats the prob :)
03:43	mako	it might  makes sense that there a proportional amount of disagreements come from them
03:43	jsgotangco	most of the time, the forums are a unique community by itself...
03:44	robotgeek	the problem is that Ubuntuforums tends to feel that they are not a part of this community, even starting off their own wiki project
03:44	Kyral	MagicFab: I had a help case in where using the PLF repos seemed to cripple someone's system so bad that he couldn't install build-essential
03:44	zakame	indeed :(
03:44	Seveas	ok, we are rescheduling CC meetings at the end of this one, should we just defer this for now and wait for the next meeting so the forum staff can show up?
03:44	jsgotangco	robotgeek, that feeling is social
03:44	Seveas	without forum staff there is not much we can do now
03:44	\sh	Seveas: if they show up
03:44	Kamion	I didn't realise this was coming up until I looked at the agenda two hours ago
=== lamont [n=lamont@mib.fc.hp.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:45	Kamion	did anyone explicitly ask the forums administration to show up here at this time?
03:45	mhz	robotgeek: I agree on that
03:45	robotgeek	half of the stuff is going to be gone, cause they prune the threads and all
03:45	Amaranth	robotgeek: So kassetra basically just moved every automatix-related post you made to the jail?
03:45	Seveas	they really should stop deleting things
03:45	Madpilot	Kamion: it's been posting at CCAgenda for a day or two
03:45	MagicFab	Some articles in ubuntu-fr planet explain how to use .debs directly etc. - I am not opposed to that but perhaps guidelines for LoCos should extend the CoC and provide for this
03:45	Kyral	the Ubuntu Forums channel is #ubuntuforums if anyone wants to know
03:45	robotgeek	Amaranth: yup.
03:45	smurf	IMHO removing (meta-)controversial items instead of openly discussing them simply aggravates the problem in the long run
03:45	sabdfl	smurf: +1
03:45	Kamion	Madpilot: yes, but I don't sit reloading that religiously
03:45	Madpilot	Amaranth: one of my posts was yanked too
03:45	nalioth	Amaranth: robotgeek was not the only one 'pruned'
03:45	Kamion	Madpilot: and I doubt forums admins do either
03:46	Seveas	Kamion, subscribe to it ;)
03:46	MagicFab	Madpilot: not everyone knows to subscribe to wiki pages
03:46	Amaranth	nalioth: That'd be like you and me kicking random people in #ubuntu. :P
03:46	sabdfl	so, i think Kassetra has misread the GPL
03:46	kjcole	smurf: Agreed.  Hiding stuff doesn't make it go away.
03:46	Kamion	Seveas: I just did, but still, there's a lot of noise, and it *still* doesn't address the issue that nobody has yet owned up to asking the forums admins to be here
03:46	ogra	MagicFab, its one click
03:47	Seveas	Kamion, I'll ask for the next meeting
03:47	Amaranth	wtf
03:47	robotgeek	sabdfl: i think the issue was that arnieboy was a forum staff member
03:47	Kamion	Seveas: thank you
03:47	Amaranth	normal users can't get into the jail?
03:47	raphink	a consequence of documenting .deb installations too much is that many people come to pretend Ubuntu is hard to use because they tried to install stuff this way instead of using apt-get (or GUIs)
03:47	Seveas	Amaranth, normal users can't see half of the forums
03:47	sabdfl	she seems to think that it requires permission to change the code and publish a modified version
03:47	Seveas	they are too closed for non-members too
03:47	MagicFab	ogra: I know, among many other click in the same page. The forum admins may not be familiar with it (I wasn't). explicit invitation and "subscribe" should do it.
03:47	Amaranth	Seveas: Now that I have a serious problem with.
03:47	Kyral	I'll PM Kass on the Forums if anyone wants me to
03:47	Kamion	one of the threads linked to from the agenda does have arnieboy apparently threatening to delete bug reports (implying doing it himself, although it wasn't explicit)
03:48	Madpilot	Kamion: that's exactly what happened to several posts, including robotgeek's
03:48	sabdfl	robotgeek: did the new version correctly credit arnieboy's original copyright?
03:48	robotgeek	sabdfl: yes
03:48	Kamion	MagicFab: no, if somebody needs to show up for some bit of arbitration, they need to be explicitly asked to show up, rather than expecting everyone who might be involved in arbitration to subscribe all the time
03:48	sabdfl	Kamion: +1
03:48	robotgeek	sabdfl: i just added my name at the top, everything else was intact
03:48	smurf	sabdfl: I'd be inclined to treat that as a symptom for now; if the discussion would have (a) stayed open and (b) people wouldn't immediately jump on each other, minor issues like what the GPL means are self-correcting
=== mako nods to smurf
03:49	sabdfl	smurf: well, i suspect the forums admins are super busy, and don't want to leave things out there
03:49	Amaranth	(off topic: claiming automatix is the successor to "ubuntu guide" doesn't make me feel too good about it)
03:49	MagicFab	Kamion: I was saying "invite them to meeting", but also "tell them to subscribe to the Agenda" as appropriate
03:49	sabdfl	they have to take decisions quickly, or it would all pile up
03:49	Seveas	Amaranth, you shouldn't
03:49	zakame	hm I think observing the code of conduct in the forums should be emphasized :(
03:49	Seveas	it's utter crap
03:49	Kyral	zakame: Here Here!
03:49	Kamion	MagicFab: I'm just saying I don't think the latter is an appropriate thing for us to ask them to do; most people don't live for community council meetings
03:49	jjesse	Amaranth: people should be using the ubuntu guide that is included in the docs
03:49	mako	Amaranth: the fact it installs lots of non-free and undistributable software doesn't exactly help
03:49	robotgeek	Amaranth: it's Ubuntu Forums wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
03:49	nalioth	Amaranth: they dont claim that, there is another site that they make that claim about
03:49	mako	and (apparently) bypasses legally binding shrinkrap licenses
03:50	sabdfl	the question here is did Kassetra just make a mistake (easily corrected) or was she trying to help arnieboy and ignoring the GPL in the process
03:50	Amaranth	nalioth: arnieboy makes that claim in his signature
03:50	Kyral	sabdfl: I have a log of an IRC "discussion" I had with the rest of the Forums community about it
03:50	jjesse	the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Paige
03:50	mako	sabdfl: i don't think it's fair to have this conversation without Kas or arniebboy
03:50	jjesse	the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
03:50	Kyral	I could dig it up and post it someplace
03:50	Seveas	Kyral, post it for the next meeting
=== rejden [i=rejden@c0re.hysteria.sk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:50	Kyral	Seveas: Edited for content?
03:50	Seveas	we cannot really do anything now
03:51	MagicFab	Yeah, CoC should prevail
03:51	Seveas	Kyral, verbose
03:51	crimsun	I agree with mako
03:51	robotgeek	sabdfl: if you look at the google cache link, she did it knowingly. in fact, i believe she crafted the license
03:51	zakame	Kyral: I mean if people there simply delete posts (er even threaten deletion) that wouldn't do anyone good :(
03:51	sabdfl	the hotel just called to let me know that my "ground transportation" has arrived.
03:51	smurf	Hmmm. It works very well for ubuntuusers.de; the forum there is *quite* busy too. Letting the members self-police, and ping admins when necessary, basically works here.
03:51	Amaranth	Kyral: Can you email that to alleykat@gmail.com ?
03:51	Seveas	mako++
03:51	sabdfl	how very military
03:51	Kyral	Okay: Its ugly, tempers flared
03:51	Seveas	sabdfl, g'bye then
03:51	Kyral	Amaranth: After class remind me :P
03:51	robotgeek	sabdfl: nice talking to you
03:51	Kyral	I'll remmebr but just in case
03:51	Seveas	Shall we move on to the next topic?
03:51	Kyral	cya sabdfl
03:51	ogra	sabdfl, so dont forget your helmet ;)
03:51	Kyral	or your towel!
03:51	raphink	lol
03:51	Kamion	Seveas: if you're happy to take responsibility for asking some set of Kassetra, arnieboy, ubuntugeek, and/or other admins to show up, that would be fantastic
03:51	kjcole	sabdfl: ta-ta
03:51	jsgotangco	bye sabdfl thanks for the email too
03:51	Kamion	sabdfl: see you
03:52	Seveas	Kamion, I will
03:52	MagicFab	sabdfl: quick remonider: ColombianTeam starting, hoping to see you there
03:52	Kamion	Seveas: thank you
03:52	zakame	bye sabdfl :D
03:52	Kamion	ok, NEXT
03:52	MagicFab	sabdfl: (in Colombia, next year)
03:52	Seveas	mhz,
03:52	raphink	sabdfl: have a good ground transportation ;)
03:52	Kamion	MauricioHernandez was approved during last meeting but he still does not appear listed as member in ?LaunchPad (it's been 2 weeks)
03:52	sabdfl	mako: i still think we could easily take a view on the derivative work, and let Kas know that we think it's fine and not in violation of the CoC and therefore does not need to be in the jail
03:52	mhz	Seveas: yup?
03:52	Kamion	mhz isn't approved because mako didn't vote (that I saw)
03:52	Kamion	mako: ?
03:52	Seveas	mako, you said you would vote for mhz later and didn't do so yet, so please :)
03:52	sabdfl	wait guys, i don't think we need to call the whole forums group in for every issue
03:52	mako	mhz++
03:52	mako	welcome
03:52	Seveas	mako, cool
03:52	Seveas	mhz, welcome aboard!
03:52	jsgotangco	lol
=== ogra applauds mhz ...
03:52	mhz	mako: thx, hehehe
03:52	sabdfl	the "censorship" here is just Kas enforcing what she understands
03:53	ogra	finally
03:53	Kamion	sabdfl: Kassetra and arnieboy, then? they seem to be the relevant pair
03:53	Seveas	(who has launchpad duty today?)
03:53	Kamion	Seveas: me
03:53	sabdfl	and we can rule that the code is fine to be published (even if we don't like the code)
03:53	mhz	ogra: finally :)
=== silbs [n=jane@72-255-6-161.client.stsn.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:53	ogra	:)
03:53	sabdfl	that should be enough for robotgeek to get what he wants
03:53	zakame	yay mhz !
03:53	Seveas	Next up kjcole
03:53	sabdfl	and Kas to gain a better understanding of the GPL
03:53	mhz	zakame: educool
03:54	kjcole	OK.  I assume we're talking the LoCo names and not my membership.
03:54	MagicFab	bien, mhz :D
03:54	sabdfl	if there is still censorship after that, then it's not accidental
03:54	Seveas	kjcole, correct
03:54	Kamion	sabdfl: right, needs someone who themselves has a good understanding of licensing to talk to them so that if they have other issues then there can be a useful discussion rather than "uh ..."
03:54	mhz	MagicFab: thx, suerte a ti!
03:55	Amaranth	Kamion: Volunteering? :)
03:55	sabdfl	Kamion: they are welcome to ping any of us on IRC, if they need that clarification, but this one is simple, Kas was not correct to jail the thread on the grounds of IP
03:55	Kamion	Amaranth: not especially :-/
03:55	kjcole	I've herded the US cats, as per smurf's request.  The consensus seemed to be Us<<State>><<City|CompassPoint>>
03:55	Kyral	I think we need RMS to talk to her lol
03:55	sabdfl	no need to turn it into a major issue
03:55	Amaranth	Kyral: We don't want to scar her for life...
03:55	Seveas	Kyral, :|
03:55	kjcole	e.g. UsTxAustin or UsTxNorth.
03:55	Kyral	Amaranth: lol
03:55	Kamion	kjcole: domain names aren't wiki-style ...
03:55	raphink	Kyral: +1
03:55	Seveas	kjcole, Do you think there will be so many teams?!
03:55	raphink	lol
=== Kyral actually wants to meet RMS :D
03:56	Seveas	Kyral, please don't go off-topic
03:56	Kyral	sorry
03:56	kjcole	Hyphens instead of wiki style was also an option.
03:56	ogra	Seveas, US is a bit bigger than europe ;)
03:56	Seveas	ogra, true, but 2 in texas?
03:56	smurf	kjcole: umm, would that be north.tx.ubuntu-us.org then?
03:56	Kamion	sabdfl: ok, how about I communicate that to her
03:56	jbailey	Seveas: In the US and Canada, it's often not so much number of teams as proximity.
03:56	kjcole	Seveas: The problem is we already have two in texas...
03:56	Seveas	smurf, that and ubutnu-us-tx-north@lists
03:56	Kamion	since everyone else is RUNNING AWAY :-)
03:56	ogra	Seveas, Texas is bigger than europe i guess :)
03:56	jbailey	Seveas: Canada is 14 times the size of France. =)
03:56	raphink	ogra: Tx is not much bigger than France or Germany
03:57	mako	i'm happy to talk to them
03:57	ogra	raphink, but still ...
03:57	Kamion	mako: hooray
=== mako knows a couple things about licensingg
=== Seveas cheers for mako
03:57	Kamion	:-)
03:57	MagicFab	jbailey: and half the people
03:57	Amaranth	Heh, I was just about to say mako probably knows best. :)
03:57	kjcole	Rewinding a bit: At UBZ, a few were talking about how "country" and "local" meant two different things.
03:57	sabdfl	cheers all
=== sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== CyBuX [n=cybux@200.75.79.223] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:58	Seveas	kjcole, anyway, sounds like a plan and since you don't need CC approval for such things you should simply ping smurf to arrange it :)
03:58	mako	i'm going to finish reading the logs and then contact kas and arnieboy
03:58	kjcole	Local (to me and a few others) suggested a community where people were close enough to meet face to face.
03:58	jbailey	MagicFab: Right.  But a 5.5 time zone spread makes meetings very hard. =)
03:58	smurf	Fine with me, anyay
03:58	MagicFab	kjcole: and "locale" too
03:58	smurf	anyway
03:58	Kamion	Seveas: indeed
03:58	mako	does someone have arniboy's email?
03:58	Seveas	mako, will you ask them to come to the meeting too?
03:58	smurf	as long as people don't want ubuntu-us-tx-north.org :-/
03:58	robotgeek	mako: greyrod@gmail.com
03:58	Kamion	Seveas: no, that's obsolete
03:58	robotgeek	nothing's wrong with TX
03:58	Seveas	Kamion, ok
03:59	Kyral	robotgeek: lol
03:59	Seveas	So then we landed at new members
03:59	Kamion	Seveas: sabdfl ruled on it, none of us disagreed (and I think we all heartily agree), end of story :)
03:59	MarioMeyer_	why dont u do sub-domains.. like north.tx.ubuntu-us.org
03:59	raphink	:)
03:59	Seveas	MarioMeyer_, they do
03:59	Seveas	Kamion, couldn't agree more
03:59	mako	Seveas: sure
03:59	\sh	smurf: you could sell subdomains to it...like me.at.* like jump.to ,-)
04:00	smurf	\sh: They're Canonical's ;-)
04:00	Seveas	anyway, anyone question/remarks about any of the previous topics?
04:00	MagicFab	I know if I go to Texas I wouldn't be searching for "TX" or "north.tx"
04:00	Seveas	going once
04:00	robotgeek	Seveas: wait...
04:00	mako	lets move on
04:00	mako	please
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=== GuBA [n=gbarrero@64.76.50.38] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:00	mako	it's gonna be pumpkin time again sooner rather than later
04:00	Seveas	ok
04:00	robotgeek	Seveas: the main issue is not with my script/whatever, but with the censorship. However, that's for later?
04:00	Seveas	robotgeek, yes
04:01	Seveas	moving on now
04:01	Kamion	robotgeek: already ruled on and passed
04:01	robotgeek	good
04:01	Seveas	MagicFab
04:01	MagicFab	yes
04:01	MagicFab	posting summary...
04:01	MagicFab	WikiPage:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez - re-edited since last CC. I am originally from Colombia, have been living in Quebec Canada since '89. I am part of Canadian Team, Marketing Team and recently helping Colombian Team get started (Loco Contact). I started UbuntuInLibraries, I also occasionally do cleanup on the Wiki, post to forums or help in #ubuntu, #ubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-es.
04:01	MagicFab	I currently work full-time as an Open Source software solutions consultant, focusing on security and migration issues in Montreal. I have developed Linux training focused on Ubuntu which will be given at local libraries and ed. facilities, I have strong links to the local community and I am mostly interested in advocacy/marketing (events, etc.), local support & training and new users introduction / migration to Gnu/Linux
04:02	ogra	MagicFab participated a lot in te ltsp BOFs iirc ...
04:02	Seveas	to add: MagicFab was defered last time, since his wiki page was not clear enough on his contributions (being mainly in advocacy) and he has been asked to return this time after fixing that
04:02	Kamion	mako: did you work with MagicFab over the last two weeks?
04:03	MagicFab	I asked Drobitaille, CBurger , HFiguiere (members) to come, they're all in timezones difficult to come
04:03	MagicFab	BUrger is here, also GuBa from (future) ColombianTeam
04:03	mako	MagicFab: did we? i don't remember doing more than a few messages
04:03	mhz	MagicFab: has also been active on marketing proposals and spreading ubuntu for latinamerican people
04:04	MagicFab	mako: no, I asked for input but didn't get any replies. However I asked other members/users and did many changes
=== Kamion finds https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%C3%A1nRodr%C3%ADguezDetail
04:04	Seveas	Actively marketing and selling Ubuntu-related services locally: <-- any url on that?
04:05	mhz	Seveas, also MagicFab has started UbuntuInLibraries initiative
04:05	mako	i'm still concerned that many of the more substantial projects within the the ubuntu project have pages and edits that are within the last week or two
04:05	MagicFab	http://www.fabianrodriguez.com
04:05	MagicFab	:)
04:06	jsgotangco	mako, as if rushing for something?
04:06	jsgotangco	:)
04:06	Seveas	mhz, yeah I really like that one
04:06	mako	mhz: yes, but that page is 9 days old
04:06	MagicFab	mako: whois
04:07	mako	on a conference call next week, we discussed the idea of giving some more fixed guidelines in terms of what we meaned by sustained projects
04:07	mhz	hmmm, it is probably because many non-english activities related to ubuntu are usually not logged somewhere
04:07	mako	basically, an involvement in/on a particular project that is 2+ months
04:07	mako	mhz: well, then we need testimonials
=== mako is still reading the detail page
04:08	Seveas	mako, advocacy is not always in projects
04:08	MagicFab	mako: well, Iasked you driectly for input, didn't get any. I didn't re-add myself to the CC agenda, so I thought it was OK. Regardless, membership is not a requisite for me to keep contributing.
04:08	mhz	mako: that's why having latinamerican ubuntu memebers was so important
04:08	mako	Seveas: i understand that and i have been happy to accept other advocates
04:09	mako	and i'm going to be happy to accept MagicFab too :)
04:09	mako	but in fairness to everyone else, it seems like *some* testimonials would be useful
04:09	mhz	usually, many contributors do not get logged mainly because 99% of what they do is in spanish or other lang.
04:09	mako	in the absence of other documentation
04:09	Seveas	mako, the people who can are not yet here
04:09	mako	mhz: point me to spanish pages then
04:09	mako	other people have
04:10	MagicFab	how can I get that if theycan't come.
04:10	mako	Seveas: i understand that
04:10	jsgotangco	mhz, that shouldnt be an impendiment
04:10	MagicFab	mhz: all my contribs are listed there (my wiki)
04:10	mako	MagicFab: you can have them write it up? as comments on your page
04:10	mako	in email to the CC
04:10	mako	there are many options
04:10	Seveas	mako, that's an idea
04:10	mhz	jsgotangco: i know, it is just that even I had to make a decision... english or spanish. I chose english.
04:10	mako	i believe we have solved the communicating asynchronously problem ;)
04:10	Kamion	mako: perhaps we could mail those that Fabian lists under People and ask them for comments
04:11	Kamion	(hub, corey, daniel, sivan)
04:11	mhz	MagicFab: do you have a list or something?
04:11	mako	Kamion: seems good
04:11	MagicFab	mako: yes
04:11	mhz	mako: good point
04:11	MagicFab	Kamion: exactly
04:11	Kamion	mhz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%c3%a1nRodr%c3%adguez
04:11	MagicFab	mako: they all need to be current members, right ?
04:11	Seveas	MagicFab, not per se
04:11	Kamion	mako: wanna do that, or shall I?
04:11	Seveas	but it helps
04:12	Kamion	certainly all the above are known to me, although I don't know hub so well
04:12	mako	MagicFab: they should have been around for a long time and are well known and trusted by the CC and teh community
04:12	mako	MagicFab: that will almost always make them members :)
04:12	mako	but need not
04:12	MagicFab	One thing I sense is that advocacy is always treated as second-class work. I feel I could become member by going MOTU in 1/10 the time
04:12	Amaranth	MagicFab: It's easier to show MOTU work.
04:12	Kamion	MagicFab: it's not so much second-class as much harder to "measure"
04:12	MagicFab	And, well, without advocacy what would we do ?
04:12	mako	MagicFab: that's not true
04:12	jsgotangco	MagicFab, that ain't true...
04:12	Seveas	kamion +1
=== jsgotangco is more of advocate rather than developer
04:13	ogra	MagicFab, you cant become MOTU without being member
04:13	mako	i can think of a dozen members off of my top of my head who have pure advocacy
04:13	jjesse	MagicFab: it took me 4 or 5 tries to be a member
04:13	mako	probably 50% are pure advocacy memberships (even if they do other things)
04:13	MagicFab	Well, it's not encouraging any advocacy work to just say "it's harder" - I mentioned in the last CC there needed to be more info for this kind of contributing
04:13	ogra	MagicFab, but indeed its easier to document a handfull of bugs you solved than social work
04:13	smurf	MagicFab: you forget that MOTU work is not visible most of the time -- all the hours of hacking on your box to find those damn bugs ...
04:14	jsgotangco	ogra, true the social work really needs to be visible...
04:14	ogra	yup
04:14	mako	MagicFab: we talked about creating guidelines in a conference call after the next meeting
04:14	ogra	and bugs are in bugzilla already
04:14	Kamion	s/next/last/
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04:14	MagicFab	ogra: I'd like to work on that too -
04:14	ogra	great :)
=== akurashy [n=David@64.237.176.17] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:15	jsgotangco	jjesse, only because you don't go to meetings often before =)
04:15	mako	MagicFab: you're not beiing rejected and you shouldn't feel that way
04:15	teroedni	:)
04:15	jjesse	jsgotangco: grin :)
04:15	MagicFab	smurf: will setup a CVS for my UBuntu mentions all day :)
04:15	mako	we ask everyone for 2 full months of sustained, significant, and  visible contributions
04:15	MagicFab	mako : I don't  ;) I feel like my membership process is testing some new ground
04:15	mako	frequently, the visible the hard part :)
04:15	jsgotangco	growing pains
04:16	Seveas	MagicFab, it is
04:16	bhuvan	MagicFab, you must not take it that way
04:16	MagicFab	mako: ONE month
04:16	MagicFab	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberProcess?highlight=%28newmember%29
04:16	zakame	jsgotangco: here here! :D
04:16	MagicFab	or two depending on sources - that's what I mean
04:17	MagicFab	anyways, I
04:17	mako	MagicFab: we're probably going to change that :)
04:17	MagicFab	will get involved in the NewMember stuff, hope to learn more from there
04:17	Seveas	MagicFab, cool, glad you don't feel rejected
04:17	bhuvan	MagicFab, good
04:18	mako	MagicFab: where does it say one month?
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04:18	Seveas	mako, you have said that before, so I put that on the what-to-do-if-you-want-to-be-a-member page
04:18	mako	MagicFab: also, that is a wikipage, not an official process page
04:18	zakame	MagicFab: go rock the advocacy :D
04:18	Kamion	MagicFab: the mention of a month there is about people who never show up for discussion
04:18	mako	Seveas: cool
04:18	mhz	MagicFab: how old is tha include you made and shared with me ?
04:19	mako	alright, lets go on
=== chmj [n=chmj@dsl-146-143-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:19	Seveas	LaserJock,
04:19	Seveas	(JordanMantha)
04:19	Seveas	give us the 3-line intro please
04:19	LaserJock	wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha
04:19	LaserJock	LP: https://launchpad.net/people/mantha
04:19	LaserJock	I am a 4th year PhD student in Physical Chemistry at the University of Nevada, Reno. I have been using Ubuntu since the Hoary Array CDs. I use it at work for data collection and analysis (as well as packaging on the side ;-) ) I've been helping out the MOTU since a few weeks before the Breezy release. I try to do whatever I can to help.
04:19	LaserJock	Basically, I try to focus on scientific package since I feel the need for that. For Breezy I worked on unmet deps and FTBFS as much as I could while learning to package.
04:19	LaserJock	I have done some merges and worked on some bugs. I also started a MOTUScience team and a working on an Ubuntu Packaging Guide for the doc-team.
04:20	bhuvan	LaserJock have been doing good job on packaging guide for quite some time
04:20	jsgotangco	yay
04:20	Seveas	ok, MOTU people, we need advocates :)
04:20	MagicFab	Kamion: I'll dig it - the point is the process is CONFUSING and excluding advocacy because "it's hard to measure". I'll try harder to measure it, so should you
04:20	jjesse	LaserJock: is working hard on the doc team
04:20	Amaranth	LaserJock: ever get any feedback upstream on the science category?
04:20	ogra	and at the MOTUs
04:20	LaserJock	Amaranth: don't think so yet
04:21	LaserJock	Amaranth: I will keep track of it though
04:21	Amaranth	LaserJock: if not snag the icon from the bug and see if seb128 will do it as a patch for now
04:21	crimsun	I worked with Jordan prior to Breezy's release; a couple of his changes are in Breezy
04:21	Kyral	LaserJock: I think the only thing we got back was the email tag about FlowDesigner
04:21	ogra	he's around for quite some time already and did a lot of merges i'd consider myself as rather advanced tasks
04:21	crimsun	I've also uploaded a host of his merge work for Dapper
04:21	dholbach	i was very happy to see LaserJock start the motuscience team and start working on organising the MOTU part of the wiki
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04:21	Seveas	ok, the cheerleaders are happy :)
04:21	Amaranth	aye
04:21	jsgotangco	yeahh
04:22	Kamion	MagicFab: yeah, it's something we talked about on the phone the other week and will be trying to improve
04:22	MagicFab	crimsun: for how long ;)
04:22	zakame	go go go LaserJock :)
04:22	seb128	Amaranth: what?
04:22	crimsun	MagicFab: a bit longer than two months
04:22	Seveas	LaserJocks wikipage looks ok, syncing is a good job :)
04:23	ogra	and wxwidgets is an evil package to start with, kudos ...
04:23	bhuvan	LaserJock, you should have included your doc patches in your wiki
04:23	Seveas	:)
04:24	LaserJock	ogra: yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into
04:24	ogra	hehe
04:24	ogra	but you did it :)
04:24	Seveas	LaserJock, to boldly merge what no one ever merged before
04:24	Kamion	prior to breezy's release => nearly more than two months already
04:24	LaserJock	Seveas: lol, ignorance instead of boldness maybe
04:25	Seveas	LaserJock, well you pulled it off
04:25	Seveas	that's a big +
04:25	\sh	laserjock for membership? I'm happy to see him as member and later on as motu :)
=== Bonzodog [n=Bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:25	LaserJock	\sh: eventually. one step at a time
04:25	Seveas	the crowd is happy, but what about the CC?
04:25	mako	there's certainly a lot of work h ere
04:26	jsgotangco	solid work really
04:26	Kamion	there are uploads from LaserJock going back to September, anyway
04:26	\sh	LaserJock: no excuses no running away :)
=== ogra remembers that mako can speak from a MOTU POV too now :)
04:26	dholbach	haha
=== dholbach hugs mako :)
=== ogra hugs mako too
04:26	mako	airght
04:26	bhuvan	dholbach you hug frequently :)
04:27	\sh	oh yes...mako...welcome to MOTU :) we're waiting for your merges ;9
04:27	raphink	:)
04:27	mako	LaserJock sounds fine with me
04:27	ogra	bhuvan, he's a true hugger
04:27	Kamion	I'm very happy to see somebody taking up a bunch of science applications, and am happy with LaserJock for membership
04:27	elmo	ack from me too
04:27	Seveas	LaserJock, congratz!
04:28	dholbach	congratulations, LaserJock
04:28	jsgotangco	cheers
04:28	LaserJock	thanks CC, thanks all you supporters
04:28	Seveas	welcome to the Ubuntumember boat
04:28	\sh	LaserJock: welcome aboard :)
04:28	Kamion	LaserJock: a lot of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline seems like it would fit under the banner of developer-documentation (discussed at UBZ; conclusion was to make a small branch of the Debian Developer's Reference)
=== LaserJock hugs everybody
04:28	ogra	yay for LaserJock
04:28	Seveas	Next up: Kyral (Chris Peterman)
04:28	zakame	yay LaserJock :D
04:28	Kyral	Wiki: wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisPeterman
04:28	Kamion	it might be worthwhile looking at that rather than duplicating several years of work in Debian
04:28	LaserJock	Kamion: I talked to Diziet about that. He thought it was ok
04:28	Kamion	ok ...
04:28	LaserJock	Kamion: I will keep in touch with him though
04:29	Kamion	thanks
04:29	Seveas	Kyral has been quite active in #ubuntu
=== ogra waits for the three liner intor
04:29	ogra	*intro
04:30	Kyral	Greetings. I am currently a second year CS Major at Clarkson University. Currently I am helping out mostly on the Forums, but I have also recently been helping out LaserJock with MOTUScience. I have also started a small LocoTeam between Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam. Currently running Dapper on both my Desktop on Laptop
04:30	Seveas	that's line one :)
04:30	Seveas	what are your plans for Ubuntu activity?
04:31	\sh	he forgot to tell us that he was the first pupil in ubuntus motu school :)
04:31	mhz	LaserJock: yahooo!
04:31	MagicFab	for how long ?
04:31	Kyral	Yah, I got jumped by 4 MOTUs last Wednesday
04:31	ogra	\sh, did he behave while you were teaching him ? :)
04:31	raphink	lol
04:31	Seveas	IRC activity dates back quite some time
04:32	\sh	ogra: well...yes..but he forgot his homework :)
04:32	Kyral	RIght now I have finals coming up so Ubuntu is kinda on the backburner
04:32	Kyral	However in-between semesters I will pick up on my activity again, hopefully finishing FlowDesigner's patches
=== ogra thinks he remembers Kyral from #ubuntu when he was active there himself ...
04:33	Kyral	In addition I have signed up to write the Install Guide for the DocTeam and I plan to help LaserJock with the packaging Guide
04:33	mako	when was this?
04:33	Seveas	ogra, correct
04:33	ogra	mako, way ago ...
04:33	Kyral	mako: When was what?
04:33	Seveas	My logs only date back to sept 23 and he was active then
04:33	Amaranth	oh crap, finals
=== Amaranth goes to study
04:33	ogra	i think i stopped being highly active there during my work on hwdb
04:33	Seveas	but i'm pretty sure i've seen him far before that too
04:34	MagicFab	Kyral, can you tell us since when you consider you have contributing to Ubuntu ?
04:34	ogra	so mid hoary ...
04:34	Kyral	My Forums registration date is about May
04:34	Kyral	I believe
=== ogra notes that he starts to measure time in ubuntu releases ... is that worrying ?
04:35	Nafallo	ogra: totally the way to go :-)
04:35	Seveas	Join Date: 05-19-2005
04:35	Seveas	Posts
04:35	Seveas	Total Posts: 1,650 (8.21 posts per day)
04:35	Seveas	(kyral @ forums)
04:35	ogra	hehe
04:35	jsgotangco	ogra, tsk tsk....
04:35	LaserJock	ogra: better than Debian releases ;-)
04:35	ogra	loool
04:35	jsgotangco	hahaha
04:35	raphink	lol
04:35	Kyral	Most of my work has been in the Forums Community, specializing in the Desktop Support and Absolute Beginners Talk forums. I have written two helper threads for the ABT Forum, Terminal For Beginners and Window Managers for Beginners
04:36	zakame	hehe
04:36	Seveas	I'd be happy with Kyral as member given his support work on IRC and the forums
04:36	MagicFab	So that's easy to measure. Forum posts.
04:36	kjcole	ogra: Sounds like the Zork Flathead calendar... warty, hoary, breezy...
04:36	Kyral	I recently helped Brunellus write the Fluxbox wiki page
04:36	mako	hmm.. impressive inregards to the forums.. and a quick glance over implies good qualiity
=== mako is happy with membership
04:36	Kamion	MagicFab: I'm not personally convinced by post count as a measure of contribution though
=== mhz has read those 'helper threads', very illustrative
04:36	mako	Kamion: yes
04:36	jsgotangco	MagicFab, quantity doesnt count
04:37	MagicFab	Kyral: what % of your contributions would you say are advocacy andor business related
04:37	mako	Kamion: i always spot check
04:37	LaserJock	Kyral has been lots of help with MOTUScience, he has 2 science package on REVU right now and he is always eager to help
04:37	Kyral	I have also helped people on campus install Ubuntu
=== mhz also read the Fluxbox wiki page and even subscribed. That was a very KISS page
04:37	Kyral	MagicFab: I don't do business, I'm just a simple CS Major
04:37	MagicFab	jsgotangco: well then don't, I just said it's easy to measure, never mentioned quality (tx. mhz)
04:38	Kyral	They are very happy with it and were surprised that it was that easy
04:38	MagicFab	Kyral: advocacy ?
04:38	crimsun	Chris has been active in #ubuntu for 3+ months. I'm fairly active in that channel.
04:38	Kamion	the referenced pieces of documentation seem to be pretty clear documentation for beginners, to me
04:38	Kamion	MagicFab: it's not particularly easy to measure, although it is at least visible so we have something to go to
04:39	Kyral	Next semester in combination with the rest of the PNYTeam I hope to deploy Edubuntu into the Potsdam NY school district
04:39	ogra	crimsun, sure thats not been longer (much longer ?)
04:39	Kamion	(well, the *useful* thing isn't easy to measure :-))
04:39	nalioth	Kyral does help out quite a bit on IRC, and has for some time
04:39	ogra	yay
04:39	ogra	++ for edubuntu promotion
04:39	crimsun	ogra: I'm fairly sure it's at the very least 3 months
04:39	Kyral	But that one is still up in the air as I have to go through one of my professors who has the contacts in the district
04:39	crimsun	s/fairly//
04:40	mhz	Kyral: educool!
04:40	mhz	:)
04:40	Kyral	But an InstallFest is VERY Likely
04:40	Seveas	crimsun, that's the very least, it's been 4 months more :)
=== kiko-fud [n=kiko@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Left]
04:40	mhz	Kyral: i hope you join #edubuntu after meeting
04:40	Kamion	I'm happy with Kyral for membership after checking up on some of the references
=== mako nods
04:41	Kyral	mhz: After the meeting I need to go to class :D
04:41	mhz	Kyral: okis, then as soon as you can :)
04:41	ogra	mhz, he sometimes is there ...
04:41	mhz	indeed
04:41	mako	alright, i'm running short on time here
04:41	Seveas	ok, next up raphink
04:41	Kyral	Actually I am too
04:41	raphink	ok
04:41	Seveas	if elmo has voted
04:41	raphink	(WikiPage : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson ; Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/raphink )
04:41	Seveas	so not yet :)
04:41	raphink	I'm a 23-year-old french guy, formerly studying aeronautical engineering. I'm involved in packaging for Ubuntu, and a MOTU Wanabee, having already been granted the right to review on the REVU system.
04:41	raphink	My first contact with Ubuntu was with Warty on PPC, although I mostly used Debian Sid during the last year, before switching to Kubuntu with Breezy.
04:41	raphink	I spend a lot of time on IRC helping on #kubuntu, #ubuntu, #kubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-fr channels and more, since about mid-. I also contributed a bit to bug fixes and translations on Rosetta.
04:42	raphink	huhu
04:42	elmo	ack for kyral
04:42	raphink	sorry
04:42	Seveas	elmo, cool
04:42	ogra	welcome Kyral
04:42	Seveas	Kyral, welcome!
=== Kyral smiles
04:42	Kyral	now, if you will excuse me, I have to run to class :D
04:42	kjcole	Kyral: Congrats
04:42	ogra	go to class ....
04:42	raphink	:)
04:42	raphink	s/mid-/mid-october/
04:43	Kamion	Kyral: BTW not entirely sure about your strategy for debugging the build-essential/PLF thing - apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true is often a lot quicker
04:43	mhz	Kyral: wlecome edubuntero :D
04:43	mako	where is your lp page?
04:43	Seveas	https://launchpad.net/people/raphink
04:43	Kyral	mine?
04:43	mako	no
04:43	raphink	mine is where Seveas just pointed ;)
04:44	raphink	(although I have posted it in my "3-line-intro" too)
04:44	mako	sorry, misseed it
04:44	dholbach	one thing i can say about raphink is that i was impressed that he reviewed packages on REVU and mailed the contributors (although he was no motu yet)... i talked to siretart, to give raphink comment-rights in revu.
04:44	raphink	shall I post again?
04:45	Seveas	raphink, no
04:45	ogra	raphink, we can scroll
04:45	mako	no no,it's fine
04:45	raphink	ok :)
04:45	ogra	dholbach++
04:45	Seveas	raphink, is indeed helpful for REVU
04:45	MagicFab	raphink: since when ?
04:45	mako	have long have you been doing the revue work?
04:46	raphink	MagicFab: since very recently if that makes you feel comfortable ;)
04:46	raphink	mako: I have been granted the review rights only a few days ago
04:46	mako	right
04:46	raphink	I have had packages on REVU since about 20 days i'd say
04:46	MagicFab	raphink: just logging stuff ;)
04:46	Seveas	raphink, that's a bit too short I'm afraid
04:46	raphink	and began to be active on IRC in mid-october
04:46	MagicFab	raphink: also checking if I should go MOTU
04:46	mako	ok, i'd prefer a little longer term contributions in there areas personally
04:46	MagicFab	;)
04:47	raphink	Seveas: I reckon it's recent contributinos
04:47	mako	not much, 1-2 more meetings worth
04:47	Seveas	raphink, see you in 2006 ;)
04:47	jsgotangco	LOL
=== mako shrugs
04:47	mako	that's not the law
04:47	raphink	hehe
04:47	mako	that's just my gut feelingg right now
=== MagicFab has to run
04:47	Kamion	yeah, I'd tend to go with mako, although what I see so far is good
04:47	Seveas	mako, but I do agree with it
04:47	mako	if Kamion or elmo disagrees, that's fine too
04:47	raphink	bye MagicFab
04:48	mako	alright guys
=== juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:48	mako	i'm coming up on a hard end to my time here
04:48	Seveas	he's done good work, so in a few weeks he'll fly by
04:48	juliux	hi all
=== mako nods
04:48	raphink	hi juliux
04:48	Seveas	there's 3 more to go
04:48	ogra	so speed up ...
04:48	MagicFab	I'd like this question to be asked to all members: since when have you been contributing. Just want to understand this better. Will review the logs.
04:48	raphink	there's just the fact that it's a funny situation to be granted review rights without being a member, but if that's alright ;)
=== ogra fears the yellow mako
04:49	mako	i have 9 more minutes
04:49	Seveas	ok, next up kjcole
04:49	Seveas	3 line intro please
=== MagicFab gotta go - cheers to all
04:49	kjcole	Summary:
04:49	Seveas	cya MagicFab
=== MagicFab is now known as MagicFab_away
04:49	kjcole	I'm a co-author for the Edubuntu Cookbook (WIP), and working at a university exclusively for deaf students, am involved with the Accessibility Team (and trying to involve students and faculty here). I've contributed several bug reports on Launchpad. Last May, I helped run an InstallFest with Ubuntu as the distro of choice. I helped run a local Software Freedom Day event. I'm now the Washington, DC LoCo Team leader/contact (replacing Paul Flint
04:49	kjcole	s switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
04:50	Seveas	kjcole, sounds cool
04:50	hno73	I can confirm that kjcole has been doing good work on the Accessibility Team
04:50	kjcole	(And, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole and https://launchpad.net/people/kjcole since those questions come up a lot here.)
04:50	ogra	kjcole, is a active edubuntu contributor ....
04:50	Kamion	first line cut off at "(replacing Paul Flint"
04:50	jsgotangco	same here
04:50	Seveas	your wikipage is a bit incomplete it seems
04:51	mako	well, it's not bad, but it's doesn't represent all that you've contributed :0
04:51	jsgotangco	he's relatively new but he's been focused on stuff
04:51	kjcole	int). We've gotten some local businesses switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
04:51	mako	there are some quite significant pieces of docs in there
04:52	ogra	the edubuntu cookbook is *very* significant
04:52	Seveas	the freenx howto is a bit redundant :)
=== mhz has seen a lot kjcole around interacting in IRC and AT
04:52	jsgotangco	ogra, where is it located at this time btw?
04:52	ogra	jsgotangco, you should know :P
04:52	jsgotangco	ogra, oh right...yes...
04:52	ogra	heh
04:52	kjcole	ogra: Elkner and I have set up weekly meetings to work on the Cookbook.  Making good progress.
04:53	ogra	cool
04:53	mako	kjcole: very excellent
04:53	mako	any testimonials?
04:53	ogra	i'd like to look over it for the tech POV ... but that doesnt belong here
04:53	jsgotangco	well he did took over the cookbook from me....
04:53	jsgotangco	(when i started with my new job)
04:54	mhz	mako: kjcole has been very commited to edubuntu
04:54	ogra	he was very active in the ltsp BOFs at montreal
=== mako nods
04:55	jsgotangco	his experience with AT has been helping the newly formed AT team
=== mako is happy with kjcole as a member for the documentation work alone
04:55	mako	it's impressive
04:55	hno73	he makes good contributions in discussions on accessibility
04:55	mako	oh, and acccessibility
04:55	mhz	we need kjcole
04:55	Kamion	mm, right, sorry I've been quiet, I've been lost in the huge pile of documentation ;-)
04:55	mhz	hehehehe
04:55	Seveas	Kamion, that's a good sign :)
04:56	mako	alright guys, 3 minutes for me
04:56	ogra	vote !!
04:56	Seveas	Kamion, elmo any verdict on kjcole ?
04:56	Kamion	yeah, I'm happy
04:56	Seveas	cool, that's 2
04:56	ogra	elmo ?
04:57	elmo	ack
04:57	Kamion	NEXT
04:57	Kamion	Steve Kowalik
04:57	Seveas	cool, welcome kjcole
04:57	StevenK	Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveKowalik
04:57	ogra	welcome kjcole
04:57	Seveas	StevenK,
04:57	StevenK	I'm 24 years old, and have been a Debian developer since August of 2001. I have done 12 or so merges of universe packages, and have been helping on #ubuntu-motu with technical questions as well. My immediate plans for Ubuntu include becoming an MOTU to help with the merge until the UVF, and fixing up xemacs, since at the moment, its a little broken, and unusable for my purposes.
=== mako is familiar with steve's work from debian
04:57	kjcole	Thanks.  When can I expect the secret decoder ring and X-ray vision glasses in the mail? ;-)
04:57	ogra	dholbach, asked me for:
04:57	Seveas	StevenK, just a note: you don't have to be a motu to help
04:57	ogra	<dholbach> I was very glad to see StevenK 1) learning the different workflows in the motu team so quickly and 2) helping other MOTU hopefuls, since he knew part of the story as a DD already"
04:58	StevenK	Seveas: Of course not.
04:58	Kamion	kjcole: could you propose yourself for the ubuntumembers team in LP please? https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join
04:58	mhz	kjcole: edubuntu people rock!
04:58	mako	StevenK: how long have you been hanging around these parts?
04:58	StevenK	mako: Not long enough? :-)
04:58	ogra	Seveas, see the dholbach quote
04:58	ogra	2) especially
04:58	StevenK	mako: It hasn't been long. A few weeks is rough guess.
04:59	mako	StevenK: cool, lets put this off for a couple more then if that's alright
04:59	mako	StevenK: cool to see you around here :)
04:59	StevenK	Couple more weeks, or meetings?
04:59	Seveas	twice as many weeks as meeting :)
04:59	Seveas	but i'd say 2 meeting should do
05:00	mako	probably a couple meetings to be fair
05:00	raphink	that seems mathematically correct Seveas ;)
05:00	Kamion	shrug, I don't have a problem either way since Steve's been doing lots of Debian work for ages (and thereby effectively contributing to Ubuntu if you want to look at it that way)
=== mako nods
05:00	ogra	Kamion++
05:00	Kamion	but if we want to defer for fairness to other folks, that's fine too
05:00	mako	we have said we'd taken debian work as a form of indirect contribution
05:00	mhz	Kamion: very important point
05:01	ogra	elmo, any opinion ?
=== mako has not objections to steve either
05:01	Kamion	the only caveat to the above is making sure people know the ropes and are happy to stay around
05:01	elmo	I don't mind either
05:01	Kamion	(trying to avoid Debian's problem of lots of inactive people, really)
05:02	Kamion	Steve's been in Debian for years though so I figure he has some degree of staying power
05:02	ogra	was that a vote ?
05:02	mako	StevenK: does that sound OK?
05:02	StevenK	Um, there was a conclusion reached?
05:02	mako	StevenK: you gonna stay around?
05:02	Kamion	that was the least conclusive vote EVAH
05:02	Seveas	:)
05:02	mako	StevenK: feel like you know the ropes?
05:03	StevenK	mako: I'm planning on sticking around, anyway.
05:03	mako	StevenK: if you're alright committing now, i think we're happy approving you for membership
05:03	StevenK	mako: I'm getting there quickly.
05:03	mako	cool
05:03	ogra	mako, he helps and teaches MOTU hopefulls, seems he knows the ropes
05:03	mako	killer
05:03	mako	alright,
05:03	mako	i am overdue alright
05:03	Kamion	right, StevenK++ since we know and trust him from elsewhere
05:03	mako	was ther eone more
05:03	Seveas	yes, zyga
05:03	Kamion	azeem was the last
05:03	zyga	hi
05:03	StevenK	Hell, I wrote a package checker. That implies I know packaging. :-)
05:03	Kamion	oh, zyga
05:03	mako	two more than!
05:03	zyga	Zygmunt Krynicki 23, freelance programmer
05:03	mako	StevenK: i'm familiarr with it
05:04	Kamion	elmo: I'll take "I don't mind either" as a yes
05:04	zyga	I've been here befor a month ago, since then I've been active in -desktop team
05:04	StevenK	Thanks for the approval, though.
05:04	ogra	so may we say welcome StevenK ?
05:04	ogra	:)
05:04	elmo	Kamion: ok ;)
=== bhuvan [n=bhuvan@59.92.40.105] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
05:04	ogra	yeah
05:04	zyga	I've got an (almost) fully impolemented spec, for command-not-found, together with mvo's help
05:04	Seveas	welcome StevenK then :)
05:04	mhz	StevenK: welcome!
05:04	mako	alright guys, im two hours late to work already
05:04	StevenK	Thanks!
05:04	mako	i am going to run
05:04	Seveas	mako, :(
05:04	StevenK	I might run, too.
05:04	zyga	I'm also working with pitti on .desktop files (mainly patches to code on my side)
05:05	Kamion	mako: seeya
05:05	StevenK	Considering it's 3am.
05:05	Seveas	mako, have fun at work, seeya next time
05:05	zyga	I've been active on the translation arena
05:05	mako	please go ahead
05:05	zyga	as well as local (ubuntu.pl) arena
05:05	Kamion	ok, sorry everyone, but we just became inquorate - we can go through people and mako can catch up later to complete approvals
05:05	zyga	I still need to devote more time for motu ruby
05:05	Seveas	mako, I'll e-mail you the relevant log
05:05	Seveas	(for zyga/azeem)
05:05	mako	if you guys come to consensus, i give mhz permission to install a bot to pester me ever 5 minutes until i answer one way or another
05:05	zyga	I guess that's it, the rest is on my profile page
05:06	kjcole	As it is 11:00 AM, and I'm theoretically working for my office... I'm outa here.  Thanks again.  TTYL.
=== StevenK [n=stevenk@14.5.233.220.exetel.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Sleeeeep!"]
05:06	zyga	I'm happy to answer any questions you may have
05:06	Kamion	mvo: around?
05:06	ogra	ciao kjcole
05:06	azeem	we can just defer me to the next meeting, no problem
05:06	mvo	Kamion: yes
05:06	Seveas	azeem, rock
05:06	mhz	mako: mean me or mdz?
05:06	Kamion	mvo: opinions on zyga?
05:06	mako-pumpkin	mhz: you
05:06	mako-pumpkin	later
05:06	mhz	bye
05:06	Seveas	.desktop + gettext sounds cool
05:07	mvo	I'm happy with zyga contribution, he did a lot of good work on cmd-not-found spec
05:07	mvo	+1 from me on membership
05:07	ogra	he pushes me to inally make hwdb gettextable, so ++ from here ...
05:07	ogra	*finally
05:07	zyga	oh right :)
05:07	zyga	I need to send you that :)
05:07	mvo	very active on various fronts :)
05:07	zyga	I keep forgetting ;P
05:08	ogra	me too, me too
05:08	ogra	:)
05:08	zyga	oh no actually, you need that bzr branch, right?
=== zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:08	ogra	yup
05:08	zyga	k
05:08	ogra	but its on my todo for this week
05:08	ogra	(officially)
05:09	Kamion	Scope
05:09	Kamion	This idea touches nearly every single package from universe and some packages in main.
05:09	Kamion	^-- concerning ...
05:09	Kamion	(we generally try REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD to avoid touching the whole of universe for anything at all)
05:10	zyga	Kamion: that's for the future :-)
=== pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:10	pitti	Hi
05:10	zakame	hi pitti
05:10	Kamion	zyga: just logging something I perceive as insanity now rather than later :)
05:10	zyga	Kamion: it might be implemented for dapper+1 as a test run. I won't have enough time to finish it before
05:10	Kamion	but you seem to be contributing all over the place anyway and you've been around for some time, so I have no problem saying yes
05:10	zyga	Kamion: and it needs some good understanding of how updated langpacks work out
05:11	pitti	zyga> So far I worked with Zygmunt with translation-related things; we discussed some improvements and some ideas about enhancing langpacks/rosetta
05:11	pitti	and I was really impressed by his work for LangpacksLocales
05:11	pitti	he provided patches, tests, etc.
05:11	pitti	I would be glad to see him as a member
05:12	Kamion	ok, works for me, thanks
05:12	Kamion	elmo?
05:12	elmo	yeah, ack
05:12	pitti	(sorry for being late; I'm still not used to the rotation)
05:12	Kamion	pitti: you and me both, I think it's more shuffling than rotation
05:12	Seveas	cool, mhz, start the mako-ping-bot ;)
05:12	mhz	hehehehe
05:12	Kamion	Michael Banck
05:13	Seveas	Kamion, which brings us to the last item
05:13	Kamion	another long-time Debian guy
05:13	Seveas	azeem didn't mind being defered
05:13	zyga	Yah
05:13	Kamion	ok, that would be simpler
=== zyga lost one line and was kept waiting for something already there :)
05:13	Seveas	so next is scheduling
05:13	zyga	thanks
05:13	jsgotangco	i gotta sleep cacth you guys later
05:13	Seveas	I received a total of zero seggestions on a new CC schedule
05:13	pitti	congrats, zyga, and welcome
05:14	zyga	thanks :))
05:14	Seveas	which is a bit less than expected :)
05:14	Kamion	Seveas: and again we've missed mako, d'oh
05:14	Seveas	Kamion, shall I just do this via E-mail for the next meeting and pester people to reply?
05:14	Kamion	personally I have no idea what mako's schedule is nowadays (since he isn't working for Canonical any more)
05:14	elmo	we should set up a list, and organize it by email
05:14	ogra	lets do the scheduling at the beginning next time, so he can intervene
05:14	Kamion	Seveas: I think mailing the four of us would be moderately useful, yes, and what elmo said about a list
05:15	Kamion	shall I poke jdub about that?
05:15	elmo	nah, mail RT
05:15	elmo	I can do that these days
05:15	Kamion	'k
05:15	Seveas	ubuntu-cc@lists I guess?
05:15	Seveas	or cummonity-council@lists
=== Kamion was thinking community-council@ or ubuntu-council@
05:15	Seveas	well, with the o and u swapped
05:16	Seveas	I'd prefer community-council@
05:16	elmo	I don't much care; I'll create whichever I'm told
05:16	Seveas	hehe
05:16	elmo	but anyway, since we can't organize the schedule now - is there anything else?
05:16	Seveas	no
=== Seveas hands elmo the hammer
05:17	mhz	Seveas: was mako serious on the botting issue?
05:17	elmo	Kamion: good on your side?
05:17	elmo	mhz: no
05:17	mhz	cool
=== mhz can really be a pian in the neck if asked to :D
05:17	Seveas	:)
05:17	Kamion	oh, should community-council@ be publicly archived?
05:17	Seveas	I'd say yes
05:17	Kamion	personally I'm thinking not because we do sometimes need the facility for private discussion
05:18	elmo	Kamion: I'd guess not - anything substantive that's public should be done in a more public forum
05:18	Seveas	will it be 'open for the public' to subscribe?
05:18	Kamion	Seveas: no
05:18	Kamion	it's more along the lines of a contact address
05:18	Seveas	only the 4 of you?
05:18	Kamion	right
05:18	Kamion	it should be possible for people to mail "the community council"
=== mhz wanted to have over 1000 mails
05:19	Seveas	ok, then I'll mention it as a contact address in the report
05:19	ogra	mhz, you dont want that ...
05:19	mhz	hehehe
05:19	ogra	there are days in have twice as much ...
05:19	mhz	ogra: I love to 'delte' emais from inbox
05:19	mhz	:D
05:19	Kamion	and it should probably be possible for people to mail it with roughly the same expectation of privacy as they have from mailing a person (i.e. some)
05:19	ogra	(normally its aroud 3-400)
05:19	Seveas	Kamion, can I/ogra/dholbach/smurf as active CC-meeting-followers subscribe or is it strictly the four of you?
05:20	elmo	Seveas: it's a contact address for the CC
05:20	Kamion	elmo: RTed
05:20	elmo	so it should be limited to the CC
05:20	Seveas	ok
05:20	elmo	IMO
05:20	elmo	Kamion: thanks
05:21	Kamion	Seveas: as elmo says, wider discussion can be held on other fora (e.g. sounder@) or people can be cc'ed for input on specific issues
05:21	jsgotangco	sounder is good
05:21	Seveas	OK, then that'll be all I guess
05:21	Seveas	I'm going to make and eat dinner and then write the summary for {devel,sounder,cc,fridge}
05:21	Kamion	I don't mean to be exclusionary here, I don't expect there will be lots of stuff there, but a contact address is getting increasingly required
05:22	Kamion	and in cases of dispute resolution other people may very well want it to be limited-circulation
05:22	Kamion	ok, I think we're done, thanks all
05:22	robotgeek	later
05:22	Seveas	later all
05:23	zakame	yay
05:23	Seveas	2 weeks from now, at a time to be discussed :)
=== robotgeek will be there
05:23	Seveas	cool
05:23	mhz	see ya all
05:23	robotgeek	Seveas: do i need to be a member to add to the agenda?
05:24	Seveas	robotgeek, no, what do you want to add?
05:24	robotgeek	Seveas: the whole forum/wiki. i'll write up a summary, and post it so that people can get a fair idea. since, hopefully the forum mods will be tehre next time
05:25	robotgeek	not specific to my case, tho
=== CyBuX [n=cybux@200.75.79.223] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Abandonando"]
05:26	nalioth	there are forums issues that affect the whole community
05:27	ogra	but hard to discuss if the people in charge never show up
05:27	nalioth	quite.
05:28	mhz_lunch	ogra: so, maybe now jdub will answer my emails :D
05:28	robotgeek	ogra: i'm more concerned with the 'splitting' up of the community, with double efforts here and there
05:29	robotgeek	it's a nasty issue, but it will need to be solved sooner or later
05:29	ogra	robotgeek, i'm concerned about that since warty ... but it doesnt help...
05:29	zakame	er we don't want either sides to feel alienated :/
05:30	ogra	i.e. you are either a forum person or you are a mailing list person ... i'm the latter and i dont know whats going on in the forums ...
05:30	jsgotangco	same here
05:30	ogra	others wont know whts up with the mailing lists
05:30	jsgotangco	and the ml is more unmoderated
05:31	robotgeek	i think the forums are a part of the community. i mostly do irc/wiki, but do post on the forums sometimes. However, stuff claiming to be "this is the real ubuntu/guide/whatever" don't really contribute to ubuntu as a whole
05:31	azeem	ogra: bidirect gateways to the rescue!
05:31	ogra	yes, but there are more active devs at least taking a glance
05:31	ogra	azeem, we have them ...
05:31	azeem	yeah, I know
05:32	robotgeek	anyways, looks like i've rambled enough :)
05:32	Seveas	robotgeek, please don't edit the CC agenda today though, I'm making my weekly edit
05:33	robotgeek	Seveas: no, i just added that link as someone asked me to do so. I havent (won't) touch it further.
05:36	nalioth	y'all be safe
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05:37	robotgeek	well, a fruitful first meeting for me. later all
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05:38	zakame	bye all, and peace! :)
=== zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
05:38	ubuntugeek_	meeting over?
05:39	Kamion	yes
05:39	Kamion	it started two-and-a-half hours ago, just finished
05:39	ubuntugeek_	ok
=== Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
05:40	ubuntugeek_	i'll email the people who need to hear what i gotta say then
05:40	ubuntugeek_	thanks
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05:42	mhz_lunch	mako: you'll have to vote update on some members :)
05:42	mako	i don't have time to takea  look at that right now
05:43	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, can you cc me in that mail please
05:44	Seveas	I'm writing the summary of that meeting and would ike to include it
05:44	ubuntugeek_	email?
05:44	ubuntugeek_	i can basically state it here if you want
05:45	Seveas	that's good too
05:47	ubuntugeek_	well i am tired of this bullshit surrounding the forums and the ubuntu community and the community council.. I am seriously considering terminating the project or removing the official status it has.
05:48	ubuntugeek_	thats all i have to say right now i'll make my decision known
05:48	jsgotangco	bullshit with the council?
05:49	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, im very sorry to hear that
05:49	ubuntugeek_	i find it hard to accept the CC an make any rules or decisions when they dont even visit the forums
05:50	jsgotangco	do you mean the CC doesn't apply very well to a forums setting?
05:50	ubuntugeek_	well i have yet to see that anyone actually understands how the forums work let alone care to find out.. from the previous cc meetings i have been in.
05:50	ubuntugeek_	jsgotangco: yes 100% correct
05:50	Kamion	this week's issue seemed pretty independent of what setting it happened to be in
05:50	azeem	ubuntugeek_: this is why the CC invited the forum admins to join their meeting for the next time
05:50	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, you're right with that, but this (the issue on the agenda now) is a dispute between a fw community members
05:51	Seveas	that it takes place on the forums is not the essence
05:51	Kamion	i.e. it was claimed that somebody in charge attempted to stop people from distributing changes to a GPLed work on the grounds that it was illegal
05:51	ubuntugeek_	i look at the CC agenda I see.. "We already had a discussion about locking or removing discussion. Apparently that still happens. IMHO this needs to be addressed, among other problems these threads are an example of. -- MatthiasUrlichs"
05:51	Seveas	deleting posts and threads is however frowned upon, but no one wanted to judge that without you and other admins being able to defend it
05:51	Kamion	ubuntugeek_: dude that's just a (relatively) random person's comment on the agenda, it's not a CC opinion
05:52	Kamion	anyone can edit that agenda, it's a wiki page
05:52	jsgotangco	i'm pretty confident people in the CC or even in this channel go to the forum every while
05:52	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, please look at the agenda again in 10 minutes after I did the weekly update to reflect the current status
05:53	ubuntugeek_	seveas: ok.. please put on agenda "the future of the forums" for dicussion at the next meeting then
05:53	Kamion	the main problem from our side is that most of the times that people ask for an opinion on some issue, only the aggrieved party shows up
05:53	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, will do
05:53	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, the date and time of the next meeting are not yet known, I'll keep you pasted
05:53	ubuntugeek_	well its hard to show up well its off time for me or when i work..
05:53	Seveas	posted*
05:53	Kamion	which puts us in a very difficult position; I for one don't want to make a decision based on hearing only one side of the issue
05:53	ubuntugeek_	and when i do show its a waste anyways no one gives a shit what i say
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05:53	Kamion	in this case references were given and they seemed to be pretty clear
05:54	Kamion	but we refrained from getting into anything about locking/deleting posts
05:54	azeem	Kamion: so assuming that agenda item changes are emailed to the CC members, couldn't one of you (or a secretary) try to invite the other parties to the netx meeting as well?
05:54	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, the CC does care about what you say, as much as they care about any other member
05:55	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: I dont agree with that 100% but ok..
05:55	Kamion	azeem: yes, we need to get better at that; I only actually remembered to subscribe to that wiki page today so ...
05:55	Seveas	there are others that may put disrespecting things on the agenda, but the agenda does not reflect the opinion of the CC
05:55	Seveas	the log of the meetings does
05:55	ubuntugeek_	Ok I said what i need to say, i need to get back to work.. thanks
05:55	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, thanks for showing up
05:55	\sh	well...locking and deleting posts on german forums means normally, that the maintainer is responsible for every post on maintained forum website...which means he can be charged even if the maintainer didn't write this post
05:56	Kamion	to be perfectly honest it seems more like you don't care what we say - we've ended up in the position of being an arbitration body for your debates, but you keep saying our opinions aren't valid
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05:56	Kamion	which is very difficult to deal with
05:56	azeem	\sh: you mean from a legal POV?
05:56	\sh	azeem: yes..
05:56	azeem	i.e. if somebody external sues
05:56	azeem	ok
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05:56	Kyral	can't we please just get along....
05:56	Kamion	it would really help if we could somehow agree that some things are social issues independent of the setting
05:57	Kamion	I'd far rather be dealing with social issues that aren't intrinsically connected to the setting they're in anyway
05:57	Kamion	and ultimately, most disagreements between people are just that - people are people regardless of whether they're on a mailing list, on IRC, or in a web forum
05:57	ubuntugeek_	Kamion: until the forums are understood 100% and we can agree its going to be a biased decision..
05:58	Kamion	mostly they're decisions about people, not about forums
05:58	azeem	ubuntugeek_: is there documentation somewhere the CC members should read up on?
=== Kyral sighs
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05:58	Kyral	I hate this fight I really do. As a Member and as an active Forums user this is a very distressing fight
05:59	ubuntugeek_	azeem: just participate in the forums thats the best way to understand
05:59	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: agreed..
05:59	Kyral	ubuntugeek_: I do participate and I don't see the problem
05:59	Kamion	would it be valid for us to say that you can't understand Ubuntu unless you participate in the mailing lists?
05:59	Kamion	I don't think so
05:59	Kyral	and I think that Kass and AB are in the wrong on this one
05:59	Kamion	but it has a similar chain of reasoning
05:59	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: and maybe they are.. I am talking about a bigger issue here
06:00	Kyral	which is?
06:00	Kamion	(since all Ubuntu development is on mailing lists or in IRC, or occasionally at conferences)
06:00	Seveas	Kyral, we're not judging right and wrong now
06:00	Kyral	sorry, but I seem to have to deal with this everyday and its getting VERY tiring
06:00	ubuntugeek_	The issue is, the CC makes decisions that the forums should follow when they dont understand how the forums work 100%
06:01	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: yeah me too.. its getting real old
06:01	Kyral	what pisses me off is talk of separation of the Forums from Ubuntu
06:01	\sh	ubuntugeek: well...reading in the last couple of weeks the german forums...I have really problems with the mostly anonymous people there..some are trolling, some are really serious and annoyed about the trolls...and some are really dangerous with their advises...which tells me, that I will avoid writing and reading to forums...with exceptions every now and then
06:01	Kamion	but it's *not* about how the forums work, in the vast majority of cases
06:01	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: well pisses me off too.. but ya know what
06:02	Kyral	Don't say it
06:02	\sh	ubuntugeek: I don't think it different from other forums
06:02	Kamion	unless there is a magic potion you give everyone when they join up for the forums that makes them a different kind of person
06:02	Kamion	in which case, where's mine? :-)
06:02	ubuntugeek_	Ok then .. someone tell me why i should continue to provide the forums to the ubuntu community?
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06:02	ubuntugeek_	and put up this the bullshit :)
06:02	mjg59	ubuntugeek_: If you don't want to provide something, then don't.
06:03	mjg59	This is a community of volunteers. You can't be compelled to do something you don't want to do.
06:03	Kamion	(ahem, Canonical helps, and AIUI has repeatedly offered to help more)
06:03	\sh	Kamion: signed keys...trackable names...no anons anymore...if everyone will post with their names and personallity attached, people are changing...or the userbase will just decrease
06:03	Kamion	ultimately though it ought to be about your users
06:03	Kyral	ubuntugeek_: You wouldn't
06:03	Kyral	you KNOW how crucial a support base the Forums are
06:04	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: Yeah I do.. it holds a large population base of this distro..
06:04	Kyral	and you KNOW it will cripple Ubuntu
06:04	ubuntugeek_	Kyral: Yes I do
06:04	Seveas	Kyral, it won't take long until others step up
06:05	Seveas	but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
06:05	\sh	Kyral: well...no...there will be another forum setup etc.
06:05	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: So you saying I shoukld shut it down?
06:05	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, well, no
06:05	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: Seems like it to me
06:05	Kamion	17:05 < Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
06:05	Seveas	you're doing a great job and no one can prevent that rhere will be disputes from time to time
06:05	Kyral	ubuntugeek_: if you don't want to run it give it over to Canonical
06:06	\sh	Kyral: this is not a solution
06:06	Seveas	but please keep in mind that the CC does not want to impose anything, only to resolve these disputes
06:06	Kamion	Kyral: for the record Canonical has consistently made an effort not to be trying to take it over from Ryan; we feel that would be unhelpful and antagonistic
06:06	Kyral	\sh: Worse case scenario
06:06	ubuntugeek_	Kamion: That is correct
06:06	Kyral	ie, UbuntuGeek doesn't want to do it anymore
06:06	\sh	Kyral: again...social issues can't be solved technically
06:06	Kyral	\sh: This is why I am not a Business Major :P
06:06	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, however good you are and whatever the effort, there'll always be people who disagree, such is life
06:06	ubuntugeek_	Kamion: And I respect that
06:07	Amaranth	'social issues can't be solved technically' <--more people need to understand this :)
06:07	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: true that..
06:07	\sh	Kyral: and closing down a forum or a person is leaving...is more a technical thing then social
06:07	Kamion	Kyral: we've offered funding to help out, and some of that's been accepted
06:07	Kyral	\sh: I know, suddenly my head is in "Worst Case Scenario" mode
06:07	ubuntugeek_	For the record I would never just shut it down..
06:07	Amaranth	Straight question in need of a straight answer: Does the CoC apply to the forums?
06:08	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, so please stay around and try to put up with the bullshit some users give you. And please try to keep up with the CC who don't know how a forum works
06:08	Seveas	Amaranth, yes
06:08	\sh	ubuntugeek: no one said this :) I just explained, that this is not a solution
06:08	Seveas	(afaik)
06:08	Kyral	bbiab
06:08	Amaranth	Seveas: Was sort of asking ubuntugeek. :)
06:08	Seveas	Amaranth, ah
06:08	Kamion	we take quite a lot of flak in the development community too, for one thing or another; you put up with it by looking past it to see that you're generally making the world better
06:08	ubuntugeek_	Amaranth: yes
06:09	Amaranth	ubuntugeek: Are there any consequences for repeated violations by regular members?
06:09	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: Ok but I would like to see some more paricipation from the CC so they can clearly understand the issues the forums have
06:09	\sh	Amaranth: to the ubuntu members, i don't think a software can sign the CoC
06:09	Kamion	and also by trying not to rub people the wrong way intentionally
06:09	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, the CC are all very active developers and I'm afraid they don't have enough time to visit the forums regularly
06:09	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: Which is a huge problem
06:10	Kamion	ubuntugeek_: I've tried from time to time, but we are all incredibly busy in our own right (sabdfl obviously, elmo's the lead Canonical sysadmin, I'm the installer guy and do lots of other work, mako has another job)
06:10	Seveas	that said, what are the most interesting parts of the forum from the view of the CC?
06:10	Seveas	I could try to make some time to visit those
06:10	Seveas	(note: I'm not a CC member, but active contributor to the meetings)
06:10	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: Well the issues at hand are in community chat and the backyard.. those seem to flare up
06:10	Amaranth	Are all the forum mods ubuntu members? Should they be?
06:10	Kamion	however, with the help of the forums admin team when disagreements are brought to us, perhaps we could factor out the parts of the issue that are specific to the forums and consider the rest
06:10	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: sometimes having input from a cc member on the issues would be nice
06:11	Kamion	ubuntugeek_: the issue at hand today was neither, AIUI?
06:11	Seveas	Kamion, well, the forum was dragged in with it by users, but it basically was a dispute that could have happened anywhere
06:11	ubuntugeek_	Amaranth: the three admins are not sure of the others
06:11	Seveas	apart from the deletion of posts
06:11	Seveas	(no judgement there)
06:11	Kamion	right, I assumed it was in a development section from the content, although I didn't actually check
06:12	Kamion	because it didn't seem relevant where it was
06:12	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: Right but sometimes a post does need to be edited
06:12	Amaranth	I think all the mods should have to be members.
06:12	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: and not all people are going to like this
06:12	Kamion	there's a bit of a difference between editing and deleting bug reports
06:12	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, I understand that, that's why i said (no judgement there)
06:12	\sh	ubuntugeek_: why? I mean elmo or jdub don't edit the mails on ubuntu-users or ubuntu-devel ml...
06:12	Kamion	bug reports are often pretty hostile, but it's really important not to get into a mindset where you consider them personal attacks
06:13	Seveas	It's too easy to flame on a public medium and when the medium gets big it'll attract more badness
06:13	Seveas	on a forum (contrary to mailinglist and usenet) you can DO something about that
06:13	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: I agree 100% and forums are very subject to flames.. which atrract more flames.. sometimes the editing needs to be done
06:13	Seveas	same for IRC
06:14	Seveas	I have been kicking more people in #ubuntu lately than half a year ago
06:14	Seveas	and lots of people start yelling in private chats
06:14	Kamion	#931 on http://apqi.com/ubuntu/Automatix%20(Automated%20GUI%20installation%20script)%20-%20Page%2024%20-%20Ubuntu%20Forums.htm is really mild as bug reports go and yet the response was "Unless the tone of this post is changed, and lame accusations like ... removed, it will be ignored and removed from this thread again"
06:14	Kamion	(I realise this particular one wasn't deleted though)
06:14	ubuntugeek_	Seveas: And thats the same issue we have on the forums.. we dont like to ban people sometimes it needs to happen.. with 57,000+ users its going to happen
06:14	\sh	Seveas: but you don't k-line the person or you can't edit his statement when it's said...
06:15	Seveas	Kamion, you should see this bugreport in the context of everything surrounding automatix
06:15	Kamion	Seveas: you should see some of my bug reports
06:15	Seveas	the thing is controversial and attracts lots of heat
06:15	Kamion	so is Debian :-)
06:15	Seveas	Kamion, I read bugzilla :)
06:15	Seveas	btw: has my bug closing hitrate improved already? :)
06:16	Kamion	it's getting there ;)
06:16	Seveas	cool
06:16	ubuntugeek_	Ok I need to get back to work.. thanks for listening to my comments
06:16	Kamion	I check them all though
06:16	Seveas	ubuntugeek_, thanks for speaking up
06:16	Kamion	yep, thanks, I do appreciate it
06:16	Seveas	I'll still put you on the agenda for next week
06:16	ubuntugeek_	thanks
06:16	Kamion	disagreeing sometimes doesn't mean we aren't listening, btw :-)
06:16	Seveas	:)
06:16	ubuntugeek_	:)
06:17	Amaranth	"well as it works from here on, u will need to send me the edited form and upon my approval, u can release it under a different name which does not have the word "automatix" in it. U also need to acknowledge that its based on automatix and abstain from using words like safer/better/worse etc.."
06:17	Amaranth	that isn't the GPL....
06:18	Seveas	nope
06:19	Seveas	bueno, CC agenda edited
06:25	Seveas	Kamion, one more thing: Seb Payne told me he'll not be applying for membership again, he's short of time
06:25	Kamion	Seveas: ok, thanks
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07:58	Belutz	duh
07:58	Belutz	i miss the meeting
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