=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
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=== bigon is now known as bigon`
=== aRyn_ is now known as aRyn
=== bigon` is now known as bigon
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU
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* pitti waves hello
* mvo looks around
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU
13:56	effie_jayx	!now
13:56	ubotu	Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
13:56	effie_jayx	@now
13:56	ubotu	Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 13:56:32 - Current meeting: Desktop Team Development
13:58	Keybuk	everybody here?
13:58	kwwii	hi all
* mvo waves
13:59	Riddell	hi
* Keybuk sends an SMS to Ted
13:59	pedro_	hello
13:59	Keybuk	welcome back everyone, I hope you all had good holidays?
13:59	seb128	hey
14:00	mvo	yes!
14:00	pitti	fabulous
14:00	seb128	what?
14:00	seb128	ah, good holidays?
14:00	seb128	yes ;-)
14:00	Keybuk	I haven't had time to put together a wiki page today, have been catching up with things this morning
14:00	MacSlow	seb128, still? :)
14:00	Keybuk	but I didn't see any agenda items in the activity reports?
14:01	seb128	I've some agenda
14:01	awalton__	seb128: should we continue the nautilus-gio discussion here?
14:01	Keybuk	seb128: ok, go for it
14:01	seb128	awalton__: no, that has already been discussed at UDS and we will not know before having testing 2.21 and got feedback
14:01	awalton__	ah alright.
14:02	seb128	Keybuk: 1- we have quite some compiz integration issues, is somebody in your team supposed to work on those?
14:02	seb128	mvo or MacSlow?
14:02	Keybuk	yes, both mvo and MacSlow are available to work on those
14:02	ogra	i guess ted will find a good bunch of GL screensaver issues with compiz if he looks deep enough
14:03	seb128	ok, I'll try to get MacSlow to work on those then, he said he would some months ago but nothing happened since
14:03	seb128	I guess everybody is busy
14:03	seb128	other thing
14:03	seb128	brasero and transmission-gtk have been suggested for default installation by some users on the lists
14:03	MacSlow	seb128, I've been working on other specs
14:03	seb128	I would like to have the opinion on the team on those
14:03	Keybuk	seb128: if you have a list of the issues, feel free to send it to me so I can keep track of them and make sure they're not dropped or forgotten
14:04	Keybuk	seb128: Brasero looked nice, I asked Wouter for a comparison on the /DesktopTeam/Experiences/PlayingCDs page
14:04	seb128	MacSlow: right, that's why I'm asking if somebody is still supposed to work on those, or if you guys are busy with other things
14:04	mvo	I worked on compiz for alpha3, but the especially the workspace integration stuff needs more work
14:04	Keybuk	we don't have a bit torrent experience ;)  but we could have one
14:04	seb128	should we also move seahorse on the default installation?
14:04	ogra	we currently have three burning solutions in the default install
14:05	Keybuk	seb128: it got GNOME module acceptance, no?
14:05	MacSlow	seb128, considering the the problems I encounter, work takes longer than anticipated
14:05	mpt	Sorry I'm late
14:05	ogra	(rb, sound juicer and n-c-b)
14:05	seb128	Keybuk: it's part of GNOME since 2.20 I think but we didn't move it for gutsy
14:05	pitti	seahorse> quite developer centric and thus I don't think it's utterly important to have it, but it's nice
14:05	seb128	ogra: and serpentine
14:05	Keybuk	ah, sorry, it was gnome-keyring-manager that's been removed for 2.22
14:05	ogra	seb128, ah, right ... soo many
14:05	seb128	right, it's deprecated by seahorse
14:05	MacSlow	seb128, what integration-issue in particular are there? Except for perhaps wnck-related ones?
14:06	seb128	MacSlow: mainly the wnck related one, but we get way to many bugs because of those
14:06	Keybuk	pitti: seahorse does help with general gpg agent issues
14:06	pitti	CD burning> isn't there an official gnome approach to this?
14:06	ogra	pitti, m-c-b and rb
14:06	seb128	pitti: they have nautilus-cd-burner and seems happy with it so far
14:06	ogra	*n-c-b
14:06	pitti	RB recently learned to burn CDs, nautilus does it for ages
14:06	pitti	I'm just afraid that we keep accumulating function duplication
14:06	seb128	pitti: but it lacks things like multisession support, directCD, videoCD, etc
14:07	Keybuk	my concern with Brasero is that it needs to be able to replace all of those things
14:07	pitti	seb128: but that's pretty special IMHO
14:07	MacSlow	seb128, metycity-"legacy" bites us and everybody else there...
14:07	seb128	pitti: cf the brasero mail on ubuntu-devel-discuss
14:07	Keybuk	so if you want to burn a CD from rb, it uses Brasero rather than doing it itself
14:07	ogra	Keybuk, no ...
14:07	pitti	Keybuk: and it must not be too complex
14:07	ogra	Keybuk, but it needs to blend in with them
14:07	pitti	seriously, how often do you guys use multisession CDs?
14:07	pitti	and, more importantly, average users?
* ogra didnt use any other CD burning app than n-c-b since breezy or so
14:07	MacSlow	seb128, the only clean solution would be to extend the ewmh-spec
14:08	seb128	well, looks like there is quite some users looking for burning application like nero under windows
14:08	Keybuk	pitti: I wasn't concerned with that
* pitti always found the ease and elegance of our CD burners appealing and a plus
14:08	Keybuk	it was more just that Brasero is a bit more like what users tend to look for
14:08	pitti	much unlike the complexity of suites like nero
14:08	Keybuk	our CD burners are damned hard to find
14:08	seb128	MacSlow: right, I understood you would work on this but you seem to be busy with other thing now so I was wondering if somebody else was going to pick the task
14:08	seb128	well, n-c-b is nice to burn iso directly from nautilus
14:09	seb128	and to backup quickly some files
14:09	pitti	Keybuk: right, we could change that, but that equally applies to brasero
14:09	seb128	but that's about it
14:09	Keybuk	we should evaluate them in terms of the experience
14:09	MacSlow	seb128, as this is most unpleasent work I don't think anybody addressed the issue
14:09	pitti	we need to identify places where to start the CD burner anyway
14:09	ogra	in any case serpentine can go :)
14:09	Keybuk	ie. what do we gain and what do we lose?
14:09	MacSlow	seb128, I can try burning weekends on this
14:10	seb128	well, n-c-b is rather basic burning integration to nautilus
14:10	seb128	like burn an iso on a CD
14:10	seb128	and copy some files
14:10	seb128	where brasero is an application
14:10	seb128	I don't think adding brasero to the install and the menu would be real duplication
14:10	pitti	IMHO we should design this task-based, not app-centric
14:11	seb128	it's mostly having a CD burning software in addition of the basic nautilus integration
14:11	Keybuk	agree
14:11	pitti	I don't want to open a CD management suite, I want to burn a data, or a music, or a video CD, or do backup
14:11	MacSlow	seb128, but I don't know how much influence I'm able to produce in order to make the neede ewmh-spec changes... I'll probably have to convince people like owen, havoc, vuntz & co
14:11	mpt	Maybe ideally we'd have the features of Brasero in the UI of Nautilus+Rhythmbox
14:11	seb128	not going to happen though
14:11	mpt	yeah
14:12	seb128	n-c-b upstream want to keep it simple
14:12	pitti	brasero itself looks quite nice though
14:12	seb128	and will no add option for onfly burning, multisession, etc there
14:12	pitti	seb128: I consider that a feature
14:12	MacSlow	yeah... brasero is pretty good
14:12	ogra	and users appear to actually *want* a separate app
14:12	mpt	Multisession doesn't need to be an "option". Just drag more stuff onto the CD.
14:12	seb128	pitti: and it's already in main ;-)
14:12	pitti	so, putting brasero in teh menus for complex tasks, and the simple nautilus integration for easy tasks might be a way to go
14:12	seb128	mpt: n-c-b doesn't want to do it
14:12	MacSlow	I always install brasero on every ubuntu-machine I set up
14:12	mvo	I guess a lot of people from the windows world kind of expect a seperate app (not sure if that is a good argument though)
14:12	seb128	pitti: right, that's what I was suggesting
14:12	pitti	if we can ditch serpentine in favor of brasero
14:13	seb128	yes we can
14:13	MacSlow	never used serpentine
14:13	pitti	then we wouldn't increase the number of apps (and confusion)
14:13	ogra	pitti, we should have ditched serpentine long ago :)
14:13	pitti	brasero is ten times as big, hm
14:13	ogra	rb does audio Cd since pre gutsy iirc
14:13	pitti	720 KB
14:14	Keybuk	ogra: *if* you can find it
14:14	ogra	Keybuk, right
14:14	ogra	:)
14:14	Keybuk	and it doesn't do audio CDs for portable music players, which is where most people keep their music
14:14	ogra	i didnt until seb told me :)
14:14	Keybuk	in fact, rhythmbox really sucks for portable music players
14:15	Keybuk	Jono was telling me about this thing called Banshee
14:15	Keybuk	;)  *watches seb explode*
14:15	ogra	i only use it to copy stuff on it ...
14:15	MacSlow	Keybuk, :)
* seb128 slaps Keybuk
14:15	seb128	today is not the day for this discussion :-p
14:15	ogra	heh
14:16	tyche	I'm an outsider, here for a different meeting, but I'd like to make a suggestion.  It really doesn't matter what CD burner is integrated into Nautilus IF the user could switch out the default setting for whatever he wants.
14:16	Keybuk	brasero seems generally better than serpentine, I can't disagree there
14:16	pitti	people can install whichever burning app they want of course
14:16	pitti	but the default is what matters
14:16	seb128	well, serpentine does only music CD recording
14:16	awalton__	does brasero do dvd burning?
14:16	MacSlow	from personal experience brasero is a very nice app for burning-tasks
14:17	awalton__	if so, I'm sold.
14:17	MacSlow	awalton__, data or movies?
14:17	ogra	what about its deps ?
14:17	tyche	Yes, default matters.  But I know that I get perturbed by putting in a blank CD hand having Nautilus come up, and not being able to kill that function.  I use a different burner.
14:17	ogra	i think it doesnt use cdrecord/wodim
14:17	awalton__	MacSlow, both/either/or
14:17	seb128	ogra: it does use nautilus-cd-burner apparently
14:17	pitti	tyche: that's a setting in the volume properties (gnome-volume-manager)
14:17	Hobbsee	bah.  just use k3b.  *ducks*
14:17	MacSlow	ogra, normal gnome-ish dependencies... sorry... don't know details
14:17	pitti	it currently defaults to serpentine for audio and ncb for data
14:17	tyche	I second the motion, Hobbsee
14:17	ogra	seb128, oh, thats news to me, it was developed by the libburn maintainer initially
14:18	MacSlow	Hobbsee, on kubuntu ok... but only there :)
14:18	pitti	but IMHO ncb for data is a good default, since it looks just like a file manager
14:18	Hobbsee	MacSlow: on ubuntu too.  i'll make the seed changes...how's that?
14:18	Hobbsee	:)
14:18	Keybuk	Hobbsee: is there a GTK+ 2 version of k3b ?
14:18	MacSlow	Hobbsee, I'd call that cheating :)
14:18	seb128	Hobbsee: we will track you and make you change it back, how's that? ;-)
14:19	Hobbsee	seb128: awwww
14:19	Hobbsee	Keybuk: i've no idea.
14:19	pitti	so, let's get back to topic and finish that
14:19	Hobbsee	seb128: you wouldn't dare :)
* Keybuk visits https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+member/hobbsee to make some changes ;)
14:19	Keybuk	*ahem*
14:19	Keybuk	yes, the topic
14:19	seb128	the question is to know what user expect
14:19	Keybuk	did we reach a consensus to replace serpentine with brasero?
14:20	MacSlow	offtopic... does anyobdy know if ogg/vorbis files can store a image/cover in the file itself?
14:20	seb128	looks like some of them expect having a separate app with advanced options
14:20	ogra	well, if it uses it as backend you cant
14:20	seb128	+1 for adding brasero instead of serpentine
14:20	Keybuk	seb128: we won't know that for sure without user testing; which we are going to be doing lots of, but not in a short time frame
14:20	awalton__	well in my household it's nero on every machine but the mac (toast there), so a nero-like interface is probably expected these days.
* Hobbsee beats Keybuk up. gotta stay in practice.
14:20	Keybuk	my own personal user testing experience says that brasero is more what users look for
14:20	pitti	1. keep ncb as default app in g-v-m; 2. replace serpentine with braseo; 3. switch to brasero as default music burner
14:20	pitti	^ sth like that?
14:21	seb128	pitti: yes
14:21	Keybuk	the great thing is we can always changes our minds later anyway ;)
14:21	MacSlow	pitti, sounds like  a plan
14:21	seb128	n-c-b as default for simple task
14:21	seb128	brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
14:21	MacSlow	seb128, yes
14:21	pitti	I really like the file-manager like operation of ncb; not sure about others
14:21	ogra	++
14:21	seb128	pitti: I do but I understand that some people want to do other things
14:22	mvo	ncb++ (good for its designed task)
14:22	seb128	pitti: burning video CD was one of the things listed on the mailing list thread
14:22	pitti	seb128: I appreciate that
14:22	pitti	seb128: but I don't think it's better to switch to brasero for simple data CDs, do you?
14:22	seb128	no, as said
14:22	ogra	given that we had the same discussion back in hoary with gnomebaker i think it finally makes sense
14:22	pitti	ok
14:22	seb128	<seb128> n-c-b as default for simple task
14:22	seb128	brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
14:22	ogra	the demand was ther before :)
14:22	pitti	sounds like we agree :) Keybuk, happy with that?
14:22	Keybuk	I'm happy :-)
14:22	MacSlow	pitti, if you know that your file-manager offers that... e.g. my sister (non-geek) handles burning better with brasero... since it's a dedicated app for the task at hand
14:22	seb128	good
14:23	seb128	next one was seahorse
14:23	seb128	anybody object to it?
14:23	pitti	MacSlow: just slip in an empty CD and you'll get asked
14:23	MacSlow	pitti, she regards nautilus just as a "data-viewer"
14:23	pitti	MacSlow: no need to know it
14:23	Keybuk	I use it - it improves evo's gpg handling slightly
14:23	mvo	seb128: what is the advantage for a non-geek of seahorse?
14:23	pitti	-- seahorse (quite strongly)
14:23	seb128	mvo: allow you to change your keyring or gpg passwords
14:23	Keybuk	pitti: why -- ?
14:23	pitti	it adds 4.5 MB to the CD (possibly more through dependencies)
14:24	pitti	and it's not something average users will need
14:24	seb128	mvo: to encrypt or decrypt files from nautilus
14:24	MacSlow	pitti, what it's that big?
14:24	seb128	and it's part of the official GNOME desktop
14:24	pitti	Size: 4592954
14:24	mvo	why is it so big?
14:24	Keybuk	you need seahorse, or something like it, to change network manager passphrases
14:24	pitti	plus dependencies, as I said
14:24	mvo	seb128: hm, strong encryption is certainly a plus
14:24	Keybuk	it's big because it has lots of icons in it
14:24	pitti	Keybuk: eww, can't you do that in n-m?
14:24	Keybuk	pitti: no
14:24	pitti	Keybuk: sounds like a bug
14:24	Keybuk	and lots of translated help
14:25	Keybuk	pitti: not at all - nm uses gnome keyring to store passphrases
14:25	Keybuk	so the way to modify them is through a gnome keyring editor
14:25	pitti	Keybuk: well, but nobody will look there, I'd think?
14:25	awalton__	the huge icons part sounds like a bug to me.
14:25	seb128	which has been deprecated upstream in favor of seahorse now
14:25	Keybuk	NM should arguably link to it, but it shouldn't reimplement seahorse ;)
14:25	pitti	after all, you use n-m to input the initial passphrase
14:25	pitti	so you should be able to alter it there, too
14:25	Keybuk	yeah
14:25	Keybuk	the package looks like it needs tidying up
14:26	Keybuk	help moved out to a -doc or something
14:26	Keybuk	translations split out
14:26	Keybuk	icons split out
14:26	Keybuk	that'd make a big improvement
14:26	seb128	translations will be stripped if it's in main
14:26	seb128	language packs etc
14:26	mvo	/usr/lib/seahorse/xloadimage ?!?
14:27	pitti	Keybuk: hm, no help available by default?
14:27	seb128	http://paste.ubuntu.com/3438/
14:28	seb128	that's what upstream listed as description when proposing it for GNOME desktop
14:29	Keybuk	hmm
14:29	Keybuk	seahorse's binaries are interestingy large
14:29	Keybuk	they're all 350KB or so
14:29	MacSlow	strip
14:29	Keybuk	which implies there's a library being statically linked there?
14:29	seb128	MacSlow: they are stripped already
14:29	MacSlow	oh
14:29	pitti	hm, with some cdbs hacking we should be able to symlink the identical (non-)translated help images
14:29	pitti	that would benefit other packages, too
14:30	seb128	MacSlow: all the debian packages are stripped at build (if the packaging doesn't say otherwise which is not the case for this one)
14:30	Keybuk	seb128: seahorse: I think pitti's concerns about the package size should be solved first
14:30	Keybuk	it is interestingly large
14:31	seb128	right
14:31	seb128	I agree with that
14:31	pitti	Keybuk: help is currently 2.7 MB, which we can probably get down quite much with some gnome help 'symlink identical files' cdbs hack
14:31	pitti	seb128: ^ WDYT?
14:31	pitti	(I thought we already had that, though; apparently not)
14:32	Keybuk	the fact the binaries are all the same size makes me think it needs a shared library in there
14:33	Keybuk	otherwise we need something like it
14:33	Keybuk	either we put seahorse in, or keep gnome-keyring-manager
14:34	seb128	right
14:35	seb128	still want to discuss new modules GNOME just decided for GNOME 2.22
14:35	seb128	cheese add been added to the desktop
14:35	MacSlow	that's good news
* pitti points out that cheese is in main now, by request from mobile
14:35	Keybuk	transmission - it looks more like the kind of bittorrent client that users expect
14:35	Keybuk	but I haven't played strongly
14:35	Keybuk	cheese - dep of face browser? :)
14:36	seb128	Keybuk: right, I think we should switch, fedora is already shipping it apparently and it seems to be nice
14:36	seb128	In:
14:36	seb128	anjuta (devtools suite)
14:36	seb128	cheese (desktop suite)
14:36	seb128	gvfs (desktop suite)
14:36	seb128	mousetweaks (desktop suite)
14:36	seb128	swfdec-gnome (desktop suite)
* pitti kicks cheese on amd64 and hopes that it'll build
14:36	seb128	vinagre (desktop suite)
14:36	seb128	ndesk-dbus, ndesk-dbus-glib (external dependency)
14:36	Keybuk	it won an immediate point for me because it's not banned from mininova and our bittorrent client is ;)
14:36	seb128
14:36	seb128	;-)
14:36	seb128	ok
14:36	mvo	heh :)
14:36	seb128	anybody against transmission-gtk for bittorent?
14:36	ogra	fedora ships anjuta by default ?
14:37	seb128	if no let's switch
14:37	awalton__	go for it
14:37	seb128	ogra: no, that's GNOME 2.22
14:37	ogra	ugh
14:37	seb128	ogra: it's in devtools
14:37	seb128	that's alright
14:37	pitti	erm, not development GUIs by default, please
14:37	seb128	no, that's just what GNOME accepted for 2.22
14:37	ogra	right ... dev.... doesnt really imply that it should be there by default
14:37	seb128	I think vinagre as vnc client would make sense too
14:37	Keybuk	vinagre - definitely
14:38	seb128	anybody objects?
14:38	awalton__	well, especially since you're shipping vino.
14:38	Keybuk	(or remove vino, since one doesn't make sense without the other)
14:38	ogra	dont remove vino please
14:38	ogra	its massivley used in edubuntu
14:38	seb128	Keybuk: not true, we could keep using xvncviewer ;-)
14:38	ogra	heh
14:38	awalton__	...vinagre it is.
14:38	seb128	ogra: nobody suggested that I think ;-)
14:39	Keybuk	seb128: which is almost impossible to use since you can hardly focus the password dialog
14:39	tedg	I think we shouldn't include gvfs.... no flies for anyone ;)
14:39	ogra	seb128, Keybuk in his evil brackets :)
* Keybuk had to come up with an alt-tab, click, alt-tab, click click click type dance at UDS
14:39	tedg	s/flies/files/
14:39	Keybuk	gvfs?
14:39	Keybuk	isn't that a dependency rather than a top-level thing?
14:39	Keybuk	... remove nautilus ... tempting
14:39	seb128	that's a new module
14:39	seb128	so they list if for the form
14:40	seb128	but right, no gvfs, no nautilus ;-)
14:40	seb128	ok, so we agree on
14:40	Keybuk	your argument is compelling
14:40	awalton__	well, you could still browse local files..
14:40	seb128	- brasero, transmission-gtk, vinagre added
14:40	ogra	that would help me a lot on the classmate as well :)
14:40	seb128	- review seahorse space issue
14:40	awalton__	just no network shares, no fuse, no hal..
14:40	Keybuk	what's mousetweaks?
14:40	mpt	It's accessibility extras for mouse movement
14:40	pitti	seb128: if you can look into the binary size (build a shared lib instead of linking the static ones)? I'll look into gnome help symlinking; that should help with more space problems, too
=== posingaspopular is now known as h
14:41	mpt	There's ongoing discussions about merging it into the Mouse Preferences
=== h is now known as posingaspopular
14:41	seb128	pitti: will do
14:41	Keybuk	since we're mucking around in the seeds ... add f-spot, remove gthumb?
14:41	seb128	pitti: I just built seahorse, it's alright doing symlink magic
14:41	mvo	Keybuk++ from me
14:41	seb128	Keybuk: f-spot is there for ages
14:41	Keybuk	seb128: it wasn't in desktop was it?
14:41	pitti	seb128: right, I faintly remember adding that; so it just wasn't built for a while?
14:41	seb128	remove gthumb yes, but pitti will not like it ;-)
14:42	MacSlow	I'm all for going beyond mousetweaks and add libcwiid and sugguest wii-remotes to users... with a little IR-led array one can get "multitouch"-input
14:42	pitti	seb128: nevermind me, (1) it's just an apt-get away, and (2) if we ship f-spot by default, I better make sure it works well :)
14:42	Keybuk	seb128: it won't get removed from his machine if he just upgrades ;)
14:42	pitti	(dogfood and such)
14:42	Keybuk	damn, seeds were checked out on my lapto
14:43	Keybuk	and the nice man from Dell still has that
14:43	soren	Oh, if only there was a way to make a *new* checkout..
14:43	soren	Oh, wait.
14:43	ogra	Keybuk, what migration from gthumb to f-spot ?
14:43	soren	:p
14:43	ogra	many people will have existing galleries
14:43	seb128	Keybuk: ubuntu.edgy/desktop: * f-spot [i386 powerpc amd64 ia64 sparc]  # Andrew Mitchell, approved by mdz
14:43	mvo	ogra: we will not force-remove it
14:44	ogra	seb128, its tere but was never integrated anywhere
14:44	seb128	ogra: as said we don't remove gthumb on upgrade
14:44	mvo	one of the biggest missing bits in f-spot is IMHO video playback support (or at least displaying the camera videos)
14:44	ogra	we still default to gthumb for everything
14:45	ogra	that sounds messy
14:45	pitti	yes, we'll need to move the gnome-volume-maanger default to f-spot
* pitti just hopes f-spot doesn't wreak such havoc any more with photo import
14:45	seb128	pitti: easy enough to revert if fspot doesn't work correctly
14:45	pitti	seb128: right, but I agree to switch over now to dogfood and test it
14:45	seb128	but we should try to fix f-spot if it's broken
14:45	seb128	we ship it for long enough now
14:46	pitti	'zactly
14:46	Keybuk	mvo: gthumb didn't import those either when I tried it
14:46	Keybuk	I had to copy them manually
14:46	pitti	Keybuk: hm, WFM
14:46	seb128	WFM too
14:46	mvo	Keybuk: that worked for me, both importing and dipslaying (also I think it just spawned totem)
14:46	pitti	I have never used anything else in the past years, and I use videos on my cmaera
14:46	ogra	depends on the codec your cam uses
14:46	ogra	i have one where it works and one where it doesnt
14:46	mvo	the user experience with f-spot for videos is really bad, it downloads it from the camera into its Pictures folder and then its gone :)
14:47	Keybuk	there's an upstream patch for that
14:47	Keybuk	actually makes them work
14:47	mvo	I mean, the videos are gone, you have to search for them
14:47	pitti	.avi, MPEG video, PCM audio here
14:47	mvo	I think I saw this patch
14:47	Keybuk	http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166038
14:47	Keybuk	attached to that
14:47	ubotu	Gnome bug 166038 in Browsing "Support for audio and video media from digital cameras" [Enhancement,New]
14:47	ogra	pitti, i think the one that doesnt work uses mp4 or so
14:48	Keybuk	I haven't tried with my new camera, I must admit
14:48	seb128	pitti: "/bin/sh: fdupes: not found" from the seahorse build log BTW
14:48	Keybuk	with my camcorder, gthumb only ever touched the photos on it, but that could be because of the fact it's a video camera so stores the videos differently
14:48	pitti	seb128: erk, missing cdbs b-dep, I guess
14:49	pitti	seb128: will fix in a minute
14:49	Keybuk	seb128: anything else on the list?
14:49	seb128	pitti: no, rather missing cdbs Depends
14:49	seb128	Keybuk: I don't think so
14:49	pitti	seb128: yeah, that's what I mean of course *slap myself*
14:49	seb128	pitti: ;-)
14:49	Keybuk	ok, I have one quick agenda item
14:49	Keybuk	GUADEC
14:49	seb128	pitti: that would explain why we didn't win CD space
14:50	Keybuk	they've announced the dates and venue - http://www.guadec.org/node/797
14:50	pitti	seb128: weird -- bzr head *does* have this depends:
14:50	Keybuk	7th-12th of July: Istanbul, Turkey
14:50	pitti	seb128: got it, fixing
14:50	seb128	pitti: great
14:51	Keybuk	if you'd like to go, please mail me, along with your answer to the following tie-breaker "You should send me to GUADEC because ..."
14:52	Keybuk	since it's in a truly foreign land, you might need a visa, so sooner rather than later
14:52	somerville32	:)
14:52	MacSlow	Keybuk, everything !Germany is foreign... for me at least
14:53	Keybuk	MacSlow: oddly enough, it looks like Germany and Turkey have a visa waiver scheme
14:53	Keybuk	we don't :-(
14:53	Keybuk	anyway, digression
14:53	Keybuk	pedro_: you're up next :-)
14:53	pedro_	thanks, I've a quick agenda item regarding the https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
14:53	pedro_	so if you guys haven't looked at the list yet
14:53	pedro_	please do so
14:53	pedro_	and give us some feedback about it
14:54	Keybuk	(that list so needs "Assignee" - *looks at mpt* :p)
14:54	seb128	pedro_: where should we give feedback?
14:54	pedro_	seb128: on the same reports please
14:54	mpt	bug 78608
14:54	ubotu	Launchpad bug 78608 in malone "Allow specifying arbitrary columns in bug listings" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78608
14:54	mpt	and bug 105016
14:55	ubotu	Launchpad bug 105016 in malone "Assignee column on bug list" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/105016
14:55	pedro_	if you think something doesn't make sense to be there, remove the tag and comment why
14:55	seb128	pedro_: what do you mean? untag those and milestone or not according to what we decide?
14:55	pedro_	seb128: exactly
14:55	seb128	pedro_: because you guys tagged things I already milestoned I think
14:55	seb128	so I was not sure if the tags where useful for -qa or something for the maintainers
14:56	Keybuk	I have a conf call in a few minutes
14:56	Keybuk	so is there any other business?
14:57	pedro_	well if something it's already milestoned the tag should be removed
14:57	pedro_	seb128: i'll look at them
14:57	seb128	pedro_: no need to bother, thanks
14:57	pedro_	ok
14:58	Keybuk	ok, adjourned -- thanks everybodyu
14:59	mvo	thanks
14:59	seb128	thanks Keybuk
14:59	kwwii	thanks
14:59	pedro_	thanks you
14:59	somerville32	:)
14:59	pitti	thanks everyone
15:03	leoquant	hi willem!
15:03	whellinga	hi leoquant
15:03	leoquant	:)
15:03	JanC	hi leoquant & whellinga  ;)
15:04	whellinga	Hi Janc
15:04	whellinga	Are you the JanC with the long hairy hair I met in Bergen op Zoom
15:07	JanC	whellinga: yep
15:08	whellinga	JanC, it's hard for an old man like me to chat in stereo, so please forgive me for notr responding
15:12	no0tic	hi Hattory
15:12	Hattory	hi no0tic ;)
15:12	Hattory	(hi all)
15:12	emgent	hello there ;)
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
15:44	no0tic	hi totopalma
15:44	totopalma	no0tic, hi :)
15:44	jester-	hi totopalma
15:44	totopalma	jester-, hi
15:45	warp10	totopalma: \o/
15:45	totopalma	warp10, :)
15:45	posingaspopular	@now
15:45	ubotu	Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 15:45:51 - Next meeting: Community Council in 14 minutes
15:50	totopalma	Rospo_Zoppo, o/
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
15:50	Rospo_Zoppo	totopalma: o/
=== Admiral_laptop is now known as Admiral_Chicago
16:00	dholbach	hello everybody - at the moment it just seems to be me jsgotangco and me
16:00	dholbach	I pinged sabdfl
16:00	jsgotangco	hmm
16:00	jsgotangco	claire said sabdfl should be free
16:00	juliux	dholbach, i will be back in 20min, driving home;)
16:00	dholbach	MikeB- and Burgundavia said they might be able to make it
16:01	dholbach	hey sabdfl
16:01	sabdfl	howdy everyone, dholbach
16:01	jsgotangco	hi sabdfl
* johnc4510-laptop morning all
16:01	dholbach	sabdfl: right now it's just you, jsgotangco and me - no sign of MikeB- and Burgundavia yet
16:01	sabdfl	are they online?
16:02	dholbach	doesn't look like :-/
16:02	dholbach	ahhh TechnoViking!
16:02	dholbach	MikeB- in disguise
16:02	sabdfl	well howdy TechnoViking
16:02	TechnoViking	in class
16:02	dholbach	we have an action-packed agenda today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
16:02	jsgotangco	heh
=== hwilke is now known as hfwilke
16:02	dholbach	jono: are you around?
16:02	TechnoViking	but will contribute when I can
16:03	posingaspopular	hey all, im up for membership today
* posingaspopular sits back for the time being
16:03	jsgotangco	perhaps we can start on some topics
16:03	sabdfl	ok, i only have one hour, so want to race ahead on the agenda
16:03	sabdfl	full focus, let's dive in
16:03	TechnoViking	so poke me if I don't repond:)
16:03	sabdfl	jono: membership approval boards?
16:04	dholbach	jono seems to be stuck in in a call still, so maybe move on to AmirEldor's agenda point for now
16:04	jono	sorry on a call, can we return to this later?
16:04	dholbach	does anybody know anything about Amir Eldor and his "LoCo Website Hosting. Several teams find it diffcult to manage their websites/domains due to lack of communciation with Canonical's sysadmins" point?
16:04	jsgotangco	AmirEldor is around?
=== \sh_away is now known as \sh
16:05	sabdfl	apparently not
16:05	jsgotangco	it seems no one here is representing that
16:05	dholbach	Ok... let's move on to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation for now then
16:05	dholbach	it's my agenda point and about the election process of team councils
16:06	sabdfl	+1 from me
16:06	sabdfl	i think it's clear and sensible
16:06	dholbach	+1 from me too
16:06	jsgotangco	my understanding is that we've been doing this with some teams early on
16:06	sabdfl	this is not the delegation of membership
16:06	TechnoViking	look good +1
16:07	sabdfl	it's the replacement-of-council-members process that we are focused on today
16:07	sabdfl	Draft for Team Council member election
16:07	sabdfl	that part
16:07	sabdfl	right dholbach?
16:07	dholbach	sabdfl: exactly
16:07	jsgotangco	good to me
16:07	sabdfl	basically, call fr proposals, TB/CC shortlists, vote
16:07	somerville32	I'm here
16:07	sabdfl	is that everyone?
16:08	dholbach	yes
16:08	somerville32	re: hosting issues
16:08	dholbach	excellent - I will announce it and document it accordingly
16:08	sabdfl	alright, we have a decision
16:08	sabdfl	thanks daniel
16:08	soren	\o/
16:08	dholbach	woohoo
* dholbach hugs soren
16:08	johnc4510-laptop	nice
16:08	sabdfl	somerville32: are you AmirEldor ?
16:08	dholbach	somerville32: great... can you let us know what the issues are?
* soren hugs dholbach!
16:08	somerville32	I'm not AmirEldor, no
16:09	somerville32	However, I was going to bring it up but noticed AdmirEldor already had
16:09	jsgotangco	is this regarding existing hosting or new ones
16:10	somerville32	existing
16:10	jsgotangco	ok can you elaborate/cite an experience about it
16:10	somerville32	If we take a walk over to the community rt at http://rt.ubuntu.com, you'll notice that there are 27 tickets open for LoCo team issues
16:11	posingaspopular	jsgotangco: the chicago team has had our planet down for months now
16:11	somerville32	A number of them open for over 3 months with little to no triage
16:11	Admiral_laptop	the entire domain actually since there was an attack on teh Canonical server
16:11	smurf	does that RT have guest access?
=== Admiral_laptop is now known as Admiral_Chicago
16:11	sabdfl	Admiral_Chicago: iirc, it was not a Canonical server that was attacked
16:12	sabdfl	in fact, elmo and co have been trying to clean up and help out
16:12	somerville32	For example, the ubuntu-ca team requested shell accounts on Fri Oct 05 07:01:12 2007
16:12	jsgotangco	thats right there are some teams on a different server host
16:12	Admiral_Chicago	sabdfl: it may not have been but it was a big deal, hit slashdot and digg iirv
16:12	jsgotangco	and those servers have ssl keys of reps from lcoteams
16:13	somerville32	The request was re-sent on Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:26:35 -0700 and Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:16:00 -0800
16:13	sabdfl	i don't know enough about the current loco website offering
16:13	jsgotangco	same here
16:13	jsgotangco	but what i recall before
16:13	jsgotangco	is that locos were on a bunch of servers outside canonical's
16:13	somerville32	https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html <-- describes the current policy
16:13	sabdfl	not sure who the sysadmins are that would fulfil these requests
16:13	sabdfl	if canonical is providing hosting they probably cannot just grant anyone admin access
16:13	jsgotangco	and had the ssl keys of those who volunteered to maintain
16:13	jsgotangco	thats right
16:13	somerville32	sabdfl, The issue is that they're not even replying to some tickets.
16:14	boredandblogging	locos have the option of being hosted by canonical but restricted in what they can run
16:14	boredandblogging	or they can choose to run their own
16:14	popey	(or get someone else to host it like ubuntu-eu.org)
16:14	jsgotangco	right
16:14	boredandblogging	popey: right
16:14	posingaspopular	i think what the point is focusing on is boosting support and eliminating the backlog
16:15	posingaspopular	for those LoCo sitess that are being run through Canonical
16:15	popey	there is indeed some bad words said about the provision of service by the canonical system admins - personally I don't see this issue, but have seen mention of it on irc and on the loco teams mailing lists
16:15	somerville32	popey, Simply take a look at the backlog on the request tracker
16:16	popey	sure, I understand, I meant, I have had no issues personally and I have hosting with canonical
16:16	popey	my bad wording
16:16	somerville32	Generally I've not had any problems until lately
16:17	somerville32	But I know my requests regarding the Xubuntu website (made a number of weeks ago) and the ubuntu-ca website have gone unanswered
16:17	popey	however I find it helps to be patient and ask the right people nicely, but I have noted some peoples patience has run thin
16:17	sabdfl	this team is overloaded, we have a similar backlog within canonical
16:18	TechnoViking	would it be possible to find a small group of trusted people in the community to admin this server, to take the load off of the Canonical admins?
16:18	sabdfl	what are the services offered? is it:
16:18	sabdfl	- shell accounts
16:18	sabdfl	- websites
16:18	sabdfl	- ?
16:18	sabdfl	mailing lists?
16:18	jsgotangco	probably mailing lists
16:18	popey	pre-selected apps such as drupal
16:18	somerville32	sabdfl, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html
16:18	doctormo	database? scripting?
16:18	effie_jayx	planets
16:18	popey	shell accounts are less abundant
16:18	sabdfl	somerville32: doesn't say what is actually offered, and if there is any promise of a particular SLA
16:18	popey	and less required for many people
16:18	smurf	Still, even if the team doesn't have "free" time, four months is a bit much
16:19	dholbach	jsgotangco: mailing lists are hopefully going to be dealt with in a more fluent fashion once the Loco Council is up and running
16:19	sabdfl	ideally, we should use LP to enforce access, via openid and ssh, and team membership
16:19	jsgotangco	my opinion is that community driven sites should be managed by community - the problem though is that it didn't work as expected so it resulted to compromised servers
16:19	sabdfl	mailing lists will also shortly be in LP
16:19	doctormo	sabdfl: that's good to hear
16:19	somerville32	sabdfl, James describes what Canonical is offering to loco teams: ~"shell accounts, no root access, pre-selected list of apps, no CGIs"
16:20	sabdfl	jsgotangco: +1, the choice in that mail was clear: do it yourself at your own risk and cost, or use the service canonical provides, which will come with some constraints
16:20	sabdfl	somerville32: there's no SLA there
16:20	sabdfl	though "full sysadmin support" does sound attractive ;-)
16:20	sabdfl	but i happen to know that team is very stretched, and has a backlog internally too
16:20	doctormo	There is a problem though, my LoCo mailing list I want lots of users to join and recieve updates, but launchpad needs to keep a list of more commited people. currently we try and keep launchpad members to those.
16:21	popey	I suspect part of the problem comes from having previously had a good turnaround when the services were provided outside canonical, and the transition to canonical supported has led to a degredation in service?
16:21	sabdfl	so i'm not inclined to feel they are letting the community down
16:21	sabdfl	doctormo: use different teams, and subteams if you want folks to be able to just be a member in one place
16:21	sabdfl	popey: degradation == thus-far-unhacked?
16:22	doctormo	duly noted, good idea
16:22	popey	point taken
16:22	sabdfl	i will ask james (elmo) if there are obvious things we could do to delegate some activities
16:22	sabdfl	like getting mailing lists in LP
16:22	sabdfl	i'd like to know what the majority of the RT tickets look like
16:22	sabdfl	but i don't have a login in that RT
16:23	somerville32	sabdfl, ubuntu : ubuntu
16:23	sabdfl	that should be in LP answer-tracker, IMO
16:23	popey	there are tickets in there too
16:23	popey	(lp)
16:23	effie_jayx	it got moved from launchpad...
16:23	effie_jayx	to rt I remember
16:23	boredandblogging	yeah, tickets should not be made in LP anymore
16:23	dholbach	to me it looks like the advent of the Loco Council and mailing lists on LP will resolve a good deal of those issues
16:24	jsgotangco	i agree
16:24	dholbach	in the meantime it might make sense to try to find out what could be delegated
16:24	popey	sabdfl: degredation == lack of communication and no visible delivery of service for _some_ people, would be more accurate
* popey suspects that the proposed loco council could perhaps offload at least _some_ of the workload from system admins at canonical
16:25	somerville32	To handle the tickets regarding user accounts, why not utilize the launchpad and the already available lpusers script created by the MOTU team?
16:25	popey	clearly not dishing out ssh logons, but _something_?
16:26	sabdfl	ok, i will ask james for an update
16:26	somerville32	It would result in: a) Management of shell accounts via launchpad group membership b) Mail notification of deletion/addition of accounts to admins c) Point of contact
16:26	popey	adding a layer between locos and the system admins might allow us to reduce the number of tickets in their queue
16:26	dholbach	shall we move on to the Membership Approval Boards?
16:26	sabdfl	are there folks in the loco council who can at least delete, amend and prioritise tickets?
16:27	popey	loco council doesn't exist yet does it?
16:27	posingaspopular	no
16:27	popey	hence "proposed" :)
16:27	juliux	i think there is no loco council yet
16:27	jono	wrapping up my call...
* popey pokes jono
16:27	dholbach	yes, it's on the agenda for today
16:27	jono	back#
16:27	sabdfl	i think any members of loco / irc / forums / kubuntu etc councils should be able to amend / prioritise tickets
16:28	jono	sorry about that
16:28	juliux	dholbach, loco council is there since september nobody remove it from the agenda;)
16:28	sabdfl	i'll ask for that
16:28	jono	one of the primary aims of the loco council is to delegate resource decisions
16:28	dholbach	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams/LoCoCouncil
16:28	jono	before my calls this afternoon I was working on a recommended list of members for the council
16:28	sabdfl	ok
16:29	jono	so I hope to have the recommendation ready in the next week or so
16:29	juliux	great
16:30	jono	the loco council can also deal with conflict
16:30	jono	like other team councils
16:30	jono	I think it will help scale the growing loco community
16:30	sabdfl	- The nominees support from at least one active LoCo Team Council member (essential).
16:30	sabdfl	doesn't seem to allow for the wholesale firing of a team council
16:31	jono	what do you mean sabdfl?
16:31	sabdfl	of course we want new members of the team council to fit into the existing council
16:31	sabdfl	but
16:31	sabdfl	to have that as a blocking condition is weird
16:32	sabdfl	we may need to appoint someone to a team council that isn't popular with the existing crew
16:32	sabdfl	and this sort of bullet makes that difficult
16:32	sabdfl	was that cargo-culted from an existing team council charter?
16:32	popey	should it not be "at least one active community council member"?
16:32	jono	do you have an example of appointing an unpopular council member, sabdfl?
16:32	sabdfl	hard for the CC to appoint someone nobody supports
16:32	sabdfl	no, but i also don't have a use case for requiring a team to be self-selecting
16:32	jono	right
16:33	sabdfl	i would just remove that bullet
16:33	sabdfl	nice that this neatly addresses the RT prioritisation issue too
16:33	sabdfl	with that bullet removed, +1 from me
16:33	jono	sabdfl: I am happy with that
16:33	jono	(not that I am on the CC) :P
16:34	sabdfl	thoughts, opinions?
16:34	dholbach	I'm happy with the proposal: +1 from me
16:34	Burgundavia	+1 from me as well
16:34	dholbach	it's going to make a big change
16:34	TechnoViking	+1 here
16:34	dholbach	oh hey Burgundavia :)
16:34	jsgotangco	i concur with the bullet removal too
* somerville32 nods.
16:34	dholbach	nice, another decision made :)
16:35	dholbach	let's move on to the Membership Approval Boards: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StreamlineMembershipApproval
16:35	jono	dholbach: :)
16:35	jsgotangco	well its the first CC meeting for the new year, we have to start good heh
16:35	dholbach	I had a conversation with jono about it today and we found a few points we could discuss now
16:35	dholbach	"Outstanding Issues" at the end of that wiki page
16:36	jono	yeah, the points raised were some initial concerns I had
16:37	dholbach	I believe we agreed on the general spec before, but 1) amount of meetings, 2) possible bottleneck in the CC<->Board reporting and 3) amount of people on the board might be problematic
16:37	jsgotangco	bi-weekly would be good as that is our aim in CC
16:37	posingaspopular	the point about weekly meetings... bi weekly might work best
16:38	dholbach	jsgotangco: New Year's resolution? :-)
16:38	sabdfl	two questions
16:38	sabdfl	the Governance Review section of the document is a little misplaced
16:38	jono	sabdfl: ahhh yes, that is something I felt was not required
16:38	sabdfl	it's here because we said "jeez, if we delegate the membership approvals, we will have time to delve into the substantive portions of the project, and this is what we should do with that time"
16:39	chuckf	sorry for my late arrival
16:39	sabdfl	it's sort of a statement of what folks should expect from the CC once this delegation is rocking
16:39	sabdfl	it's nice for an announcement that goes with the setup of the membership approval process
16:39	jono	to me the review part should be part of a wider effort, and is not specific to any specific council
16:39	sabdfl	yes
16:39	dholbach	I believe the original intention of it was to make sure we have no disconnect between the CC and those Boards - in that case I believe a public and regular reporting plus a escalation process to the CC might work better
16:40	jono	exactly
16:40	sabdfl	we should get folks (lead by Dennis and Daniel and Jono) to propose "things the CC needs to talk about" on a pretty systematic basis
16:40	jono	team reporting should resolve part of this concern - reporting in my mind should be a council requirement
16:40	jono	sabdfl: indeed
16:40	sabdfl	the conversations should be more interesting, make for more interesting coverage in UWN and elsewhere
16:40	juliux	did we realy need an other council to approve members? i think we have a lot of councils allready
16:40	sabdfl	could be external things too, like how we are doing w.r.t. Debian, and upstreams
16:40	sabdfl	like kernel etc
16:40	sabdfl	interesting stuff
16:41	jono	I agreew
16:41	sabdfl	juliux: we need a more efficient process, w.r.t. time zones
16:41	jono	I think this would be useful as part of the general team council structure - councils raise "hot button" issues with the CC
16:41	sabdfl	i would actually expect more memberships to be attained via specific project teams like kubuntu and edubuntu
16:41	sabdfl	perhaps we don't express that pathway enough in the docs
16:42	jono	I think approvals via team councils make sense, but it makes sense to have generalist membership councils like this
16:42	sabdfl	"you can become a member by becoming a member of any of these teams: MOTU, IRC Council, Forums Moderators etc"
16:42	sabdfl	jono: +1 too
16:42	jono	the key thing is in ensuring that the membership process is clear so any council can effectively judge
16:42	sabdfl	second question i had was about quorum
16:42	sabdfl	i am a little nervous about back-room approvals of buddies
16:43	sabdfl	i.e. 3 guys on the regional approval team just agree to +1 someone
16:43	jsgotangco	that's a valid concern
16:43	jono	this is a potential risk with any council
16:43	jono	although geographic placement does increase the risk
16:43	jono	same loco teams, conferences etc mean people get to meet physically and develop alliances
16:43	sabdfl	would be better if there was a requirement that each +1 be at least raised in a regular meeting
16:44	PriceChild	sabdfl, about that "you can become a member..." sentence - perhaps changing that to the council rather than being part of the team they govern.
16:44	PriceChild	*applying to the council
16:44	jono	oh hang on, sabdfl, do you mean that people may just approve people offline?
16:44	sabdfl	in other words, if someone cannot attend a regular meeting, they can get 3 folks to say "cool i am +1" but that still needs to be raised in aregular meeting, the three folks need to say +1, and IF someone else raises a question, they can resolve it between them then
16:44	jono	I would suggest its a requirement that all approvals are done in meetings
16:45	dholbach	we could require approval boards to send full reports (with logs, etc) to the CC or make them publically available and there's a period where the CC can object to any of those
16:45	ScottK	How about a team mailing list as an alternative?
16:45	sabdfl	jono: for now, at least, there should be many meetings per week at many different times, MUCH harder to imagine someone can't make *any* meeting
16:45	ScottK	We did that once for a Kubuntu member who couldn't make it to the meeting and it worked well and was very transparent.
16:45	sabdfl	cool
16:45	popey	dholbach: it's a bit nasty to have someone approved then rejected
16:45	jono	in my mind the major benefit of our governance is that members are judged before a panel, and people can raise objections if required
16:46	sabdfl	popey: it would not be approved till it's approved
16:46	popey	well yes, double approval
16:46	ScottK	With a suitable comment period, a ML supports that.
16:46	sabdfl	the folks could say "i will +1 you, other folks may want to discuss it with you or chat to you in person"
16:46	jono	sabdfl: I would also suggest that attending your approval meeting is a requirement for approval :P
16:46	popey	multi-level approval rather
16:46	jsgotangco	+1 to jono
16:46	kjcole	totally off the wall, but... with webapps does everything have to be done in real-time?  (I mean stockholders can mail in their votes when they cannot attend meetings...)
16:46	sabdfl	popey: no, CC would not review these before addition in LP, only review summaries
16:46	chuckf	jono the problem is time zones and work schedules much as the problem with me is currently
16:46	dholbach	popey: it's what we have for becoming ubuntu-core-dev right now: a recommendation by the MOTU Council, then a discussion with the Technical Board
16:47	popey	ok
16:47	sabdfl	actually initially, they will require that CC add them
16:47	jono	chuckf: this is why we are doing this - regional timezones
16:47	popey	makes more sense
16:47	sabdfl	ok, so:
16:47	jsgotangco	there is a reason why we are doing it geographically
16:47	jono	and I would still recommend varied timeslots - so if in the US there is a meeting in the morning, the next in eve etc - then it makes it simple
16:47	sabdfl	- you are required to attend your approval
16:47	PriceChild	popey, I don't like the idea of someone being deferred by the cc, then going through someone else without either knowing which isn't as mad as it sounds
16:47	sabdfl	- it must happen at a scheduled time
16:47	dholbach	The proposal planned to have 6 months of supervisory mode anyway.
16:47	sabdfl	PriceChild: we would pick that up, i think
16:48	sabdfl	+1 from me with those clarifications
16:48	jono	sabdfl: spot on
16:48	jono	are we happy with 10 council members?
16:48	jono	I thought was a quite a lot
16:48	popey	thats quite a pool
16:49	juliux	it should be an odd number
16:49	dholbach	I agree - it's harder to have a quorum
16:49	chuckf	I'd like an odd number to break deadlocks
16:49	popey	dholbach: depends what you set the quorum at
16:49	jono	it worries me we can maintain the quality with such a high number of members required
16:49	JanC	quorum doesn't have to be 50% ?
16:49	dholbach	popey: right
16:49	juliux	so you can't have a dead lock
16:50	popey	make it 7, and 50% quorum, get matt revell to be the half a person ;)
16:50	no0tic	how would members be appointed?
16:50	dholbach	poor mrevell
16:50	sabdfl	the meetings will have variable numbers
16:50	jono	popey: heh, he is sat opposite me...on a high chair :)
16:50	jsgotangco	a quorum should consist of members in neighboring timezones as to fulfill the geographical separation of the council
16:50	sabdfl	i think anyone of the regional council at a meeting can veto a person
16:50	sabdfl	it's got to be consensual
16:51	johnc4510-laptop	would there be a problem with having one CC member sit in on loco team council meeting for oversight
16:51	sabdfl	quorum just means "minimum +1's"
16:51	sabdfl	johnc4510-laptop: don't want to require that, we will review and approve before they are added to the teams, at least initially
16:51	johnc4510-laptop	kk
16:51	jono	sabdfl: like I say, my only concern was finding 10 good quality council members for a region
16:51	jono	I would prefer few members that we have complete confidence in
16:51	popey	10 per region, not 10 total?
16:52	sabdfl	jono: let's say "at least 7" ?
16:52	jono	sabdfl: sounds good to me
16:52	sabdfl	or just take that out, state the minimum, and get going
16:52	dholbach	ok, great - it'll be great to have these in place
16:52	jono	good stuff
16:53	sabdfl	alrighty, i have 7 minutes left
16:53	jono	so are the CC happy with the changes we have discussed?
16:53	sabdfl	+1
16:53	dholbach	+1 from me too
16:53	TechnoViking	+1 for me
16:53	jsgotangco	+1 from mee as well
16:53	jono	:)
16:53	dholbach	rock and roll
16:53	sabdfl	SUPER!
16:53	sabdfl	folks, do you realise what this means?
16:54	sabdfl	short, fun, contentious CC meetings :-D
16:54	dholbach	:-)
16:54	posingaspopular	it means sabdfl can ride around his rocke instead of CC meetings
16:54	sabdfl	for example, we've just done 4 items that are of the caliber we *should* be tackling, in 1 hour
16:54	jono	sabdfl: bring it on :)
16:54	popey	\o/
16:54	sabdfl	this rocks!
16:54	Burgundavia	yay
16:54	sabdfl	on that note, i must prep for another call
16:54	sabdfl	:-(
16:54	jono	sabdfl: later skater :)
16:54	jsgotangco	heh
16:54	sabdfl	thanks dholbach, jono for steering us forward on those delegations
16:55	jsgotangco	catch you later
16:55	chuckf	I thought this was the community council meeting
16:55	popey	chuckf: it is
16:55	mrevell	popey: I'll get you one of these days.
16:55	popey	hehe
16:55	chuckf	what about team approval?
16:56	jsgotangco	we're not done yet
16:56	chuckf	ah
16:56	chuckf	sorry
16:56	jono	chuckf: too much gatorade?
16:56	chuckf	I'm getting pulled into another meeting in a minute or two
16:56	jsgotangco	ok let's move on
=== bigon726 is now known as bigon
16:57	jsgotangco	team denmark
16:57	chuckf	can we do team maryland?
16:57	chuckf	or I can come back later
16:57	jsgotangco	are supports of Danish Team around
16:57	jsgotangco	if not we'll move to Maryland
16:58	chuckf	if it's going to be longer than 2 minutes, I gotta come back
16:58	juliux	gnomonic ist not here
16:58	jsgotangco	fine no one from the danish team
16:58	jsgotangco	chuckf: go nuts
16:59	chuckf	well we have the app page, I thought this was going to be me answering questions
16:59	chuckf	we're almost a year old. we've had decent progress and events
17:00	chuckf	we have 4 or fve things in the pipeline for promoting Ubuntu right now
17:00	dholbach	chuckf: what do you think is the most challenging item on your roadmap?
17:00	jsgotangco	there seems to be good communication going sa there are regular meetings
17:00	chuckf	we have a good solid core of team members that keep movving things forward
17:00	chuckf	dholbach the most challenging thing is convincing people that Linux is a good viable alternative
17:01	chuckf	and keeping people interested and not just being passive in the group
17:01	juliux	chuckf, how much people attend your real life meetings?
17:02	chuckf	we have regular meetings and are discussing expanding mettings to other areas fo the state as some travel up o 45 minutes to attends
17:02	chuckf	juliux about 7-10 on average
17:02	juliux	cool
17:02	chuckf	and then for events we get better turnouts
17:03	jsgotangco	is anyone else from team maryland here?
17:03	chuckf	not at the moment
17:03	chuckf	and I have to go to a meeting, sorry
17:03	chuckf	I'll be back as I can
17:03	JanC	or people who know their activities?
17:03	dholbach	ok, we'll get back to chuckf then
17:03	kjcole	DC here.  I can say they helped out at one of our installfests.
17:04	dholbach	is somebody of the Colombia team here?
17:04	kjcole	(JanC: A bit of cross-LoCo work.)
17:05	jsgotangco	dholbach: let's move to candidates
17:05	dholbach	ok
17:05	jsgotangco	i can't stay long either, i have a plane to catch in 4 hours tee hee
17:05	dholbach	deadwill, demrit, paulliu, forlong, ricardoperez are not around
17:05	dholbach	juliux: you are on the list? :)
17:06	juliux	dholbach, i think you can remove forlong;)
17:06	juliux	dholbach, yes i am;)
17:06	dholbach	juliux: you want to get your membership renewed?
17:06	juliux	yes i want;)
17:06	dholbach	I believe you can do this on your own in LP :)
17:06	jsgotangco	its self service renewal!
17:06	juliux	my last one expired last year november, but i don't like the renew it yourself process
17:06	jsgotangco	unless you would like the floor
17:07	jsgotangco	ahh principled!
17:07	dholbach	ok... I'm all +1 for it
17:07	juliux	jsgotangco, yes
17:07	juliux	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuliusBloch that is my wikipage;)
17:07	jsgotangco	please feel free to give your piece now!
17:08	jsgotangco	eh?
17:09	dholbach	juliux_ is a^Wthe driving force behind the German Loco :)
17:09	dholbach	jsgotangco, TechnoViking, Burgundavia?
17:09	jsgotangco	"Treasure of the german ubuntu association"
17:09	juliux_	sorry disconnect
17:09	juliux_	what was my last lineß
17:09	juliux_	?
17:09	juliux_	dholbach, i am one of a bigger group;)
17:10	juliux_	jsgotangco, yes i have the job for the next two years again;)
17:10	dholbach	jsgotangco: I'm sure that is supposed to mean "Treasurer" :)
17:10	jsgotangco	yeah
17:10	juliux_	ohh
17:10	Burgundavia	+1 from me, renewal is pretty straightforward
17:10	jsgotangco	but that's fine!
17:10	jsgotangco	a treasure is still good
17:10	jsgotangco	+1
17:10	dholbach	:-)
17:11	dholbach	technoviking seems to have vanished
17:11	juliux_	jsgotangco, thanks fixed
17:11	jsgotangco	i cannot stay long too
17:11	dholbach	that doesn't make it exactly easy
=== juliux_ is now known as juliux
17:11	tritium	If I may suggest, gcleric has a few supporters here.  May he state his case?
17:12	jsgotangco	who else is up for membership
17:12	tritium	We have taken time off work to be here for him because we feel strongly about his application.
17:12	posingaspopular	i am!
17:12	greg-g	and I
17:12	warp10	jsgotangco: me too!
17:12	johnc4510-laptop	so is tyche
17:12	whellinga	I am too
17:12	posingaspopular	tritium: me too for myself ;p
17:12	juliux	thxs jsgotangco Burgundavia and dholbach for the +1;)
17:12	leoquant	me too
17:12	jsgotangco	dholbach: i can sit in 15 mins more but that's it
17:13	gcleric	we'll make is qucik....
17:13	dholbach	it's a bit though without quorum
17:13	boredandblogging	fyi, the danish team has already been approved
17:13	SWAT	jsgotangco, if you follow the member candidates list, you'll notice quite some people missing.
17:13	dholbach	it's just jsgotangco, Burgundavia and me
17:13	dholbach	thanks boredandblogging
17:14	jsgotangco	Steven Harper
17:14	jsgotangco	Alessio Treglia
17:14	no0tic	alessio treglia is not here atm
17:14	jsgotangco	Jussi Schultink
17:15	jussi01	Im here
17:15	jsgotangco	there
17:15	Seeker``	woo for jussi01!!
* Pici cheers
17:15	jussi01	pastebomb
17:15	jussi01	Hi, Im Jussi Schultink, and I work with the Ubuntu Studio team, IRC and Kubuntu. My main areas of contribution are to IRC and forum support, packaging, bug reporting and fixing. I have been with the ubuntu studio team since around feb 07. I am an operator on #kubuntu and #ubuntustudio and try to contribute help wherever I can on these and other channels. I also manage the Ubuntu Studio Users and Devel mailing lists. I am a motu mentoree, (unde
17:15	jsgotangco	go!
17:16	Seeker``	That got cut off for me - I didn't see anything past "motu mentoree, (unde"
17:16	jussi01	(under persia's helpful guidance) and while I have had to leave some of my packaging work for the last few months things have quietened down so that I can now continue with that. My lp https://edge.launchpad.net/~jussi01 is and my wiki page is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiSchultink
17:17	jsgotangco	hmm
17:17	jsgotangco	we don't have quorum now
17:17	jsgotangco	how is your MOTU progress?
17:18	dholbach	It seems you uploaded a few packages already: https://launchpad.net/~jussi01/+packages
17:18	jussi01	jsgotangco: unfortunately persia is not here, but its been a little slow as mentioned. I have a couple of universe pckages and Im working on some more
17:18	jsgotangco	its still a good start
17:18	_MMA_	Id like to give a big +1 to Jussi's work on Ubuntu Studio. He has been a great help to the team and has been great at support on IRC and Ubuntu Forums.
17:19	jussi01	Im also working with persia and learning the other facets of MOTU'ing but as mentioned schedules have prevented a lot of that till now
17:20	jsgotangco	I'm pretty happy with the progress
17:20	jpatrick	I'd like give jussi01 another big +1 for his Kubuntu op work
17:20	jsgotangco	+1 for me
17:20	posingaspopular	jussi01 is always in #kubuntu and helping out. he answers all the questions before me. i think Jucato will agree
17:20	dholbach	I'm happy to give a +1, but as we don't have a quorum, we could do the rest of this approval by email.
17:20	jsgotangco	but unfortunately we don't have quorum
17:20	Burgundavia	+1 for me, but yes
17:20	jsgotangco	so I'm sorry to say we'll hvae to end this meeting with jussi01
17:21	Jucato	I agree (about jussi01 :D)
17:21	ardchoille	+1 from me for jussi01
17:21	dholbach	jussi01: can you mail this email conversation to the community council mailing list with the request for approval?
17:21	tritium	jsgotangco: when will the remaining applicants be re-scheduled?
17:21	SWAT	jsgotangco, can I at least support whellinga and leoquant? (for the record)
17:21	bbartek	I came here to support leoquant for his great work on the dutch forum (he's a moderator of this forum and biggest spammer 7.756 posts) and wiki documentation +1
* tritium will take more vacation from work to support gcleric
17:21	jussi01	dholbach: of course
17:22	Seeker``	there should be a member-approval only meeting
17:22	dholbach	tritium: sorry for that :-/
17:22	dholbach	Seeker``: that's why we discussed the membership approval boards today
17:22	tritium	dholbach: no worries
17:22	jsgotangco	tritium: we have one scheduled in 2 weeks but to be annoucned yet
17:22	dholbach	that's going to make it all a lot easier
17:22	nxvl_work	does the Mobile team meeting already started?
17:22	Munchkinguy	When is art meeting?
17:22	dholbach	nxvl_work: I believe they are in #ubuntu-mobile
17:22	dholbach	@now
17:22	ubotu	Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:22:41 - Current meeting: Community Council
17:22	PriceChild	nxvl, /topic
17:22	jsgotangco	ok i gotta go
17:22	dholbach	ok... meeting adjourned
17:22	jsgotangco	thanks
17:22	dholbach	thanks everybody
17:22	whellinga	tnx
17:22	jussi01	thanks all
17:23	juliux	thanks all
17:23	Seeker``	dholbach: ah, I missed that
17:23	nxvl_work	oh so we are still on CC meeting?
* effie_jayx cheers for jussi01
17:23	bbartek	and i came also to give my support for whellinga for his great event the Gutsy Release Party
17:24	leoquant	is this meeting over?
17:25	tritium	Yes, adjourned at 10:22
17:25	Burgundavia	yes, we are done
17:25	tritium	well, three minutes ago
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
17:35	no0tic	@now
17:35	ubotu	Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:35:28 - Next meeting: Art Team in 24 minutes
17:40	Kver	If this were a theatre, right now some guy would be cleaning popcorn and sticky stuff from around the room.
17:49	lapo	hi
17:49	Who_	hi
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
17:50	chuckf	so the CC meeting is over?
17:50	jpatrick	chuckf: ages ago
17:50	chuckf	ah well
17:50	soren	Well... Half an hour or so ago.
17:51	chuckf	I'm off to work then
=== quim is now known as quix_
17:58	kwwii	hi all, everyone here?
17:58	encompass	howdy, at least I am :P
17:58	kwwii	for the art team meeting, I mean :-)
17:58	andreasn	hi
17:58	Who_	hi
17:58	Kver	Ello
17:58	elohel	echo
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
18:00	kwwii	ok, let's get going we have a bit to discuss
18:00	encompass	ok
18:00	kwwii	how does this thing work again....let's see how big of a fool I can make of myself
18:00	kwwii	#startmeeting
18:00	MootBot	Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is kwwii.
18:00	MootBot	Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
18:01	Kver	That seemed fairly easy... Too easy.
18:01	andreasn	I forgot all about the commands since last time as well :)
18:01	kwwii	hehe, it is deceptively easy to forget
18:01	kwwii	anyone have anything we need to add to the agenda or something to bring up now before we start on the agenda?
18:01	encompass	yes I do
18:02	encompass	:)
18:02	kwwii	encompass: please, go ahead
18:02	encompass	at least I just emailed it so you may not have it...
18:02	kwwii	nothing yet
18:02	andreasn	url to the agenda?
18:03	Kver	MeMaker, corrent?
18:03	Kver	*correct
18:03	kwwii	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
18:03	andreasn	thanks!
18:03	kwwii	np
18:03	Kver	see, no speelcak.
18:03	somerville32	[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
18:03	MootBot	LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
18:03	encompass	I am the creator of a program called memaker, we need artwork for it.  Beings it is hopefully going into the next ubuntu live cd and part of the ubuntu desktop we the memaker team feel it is important to get themed artowrk for memaker.
18:03	kwwii	ahhh, yes, MeMaker
18:03	encompass	there :D
18:04	encompass	kwwii good, at least someone knows it here... :D
18:04	kwwii	Thorsten started working on one head
18:04	kwwii	hehe, macslow showed it to me when we were looking into the new gdm stuff
18:04	kwwii	pretty important for us, so yes, we do need to get some nice pics to include
18:05	kwwii	encompass: should we send any interested parties directly to you?
18:05	Who_	encompass: have you had any response so far form your mail to the list?
18:05	encompass	kwwii yeah... and for now we have a great theme to start with... cocohead... but everyone is free to make what they like if they ahve something else they want to try
18:05	encompass	yes, we have a very active list...
18:05	encompass	let me get that...
18:07	encompass	http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
18:07	MootBot	LINK received:  http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
18:07	encompass	there
18:07	kwwii	encompass: one good thing to point to would be some instructions on what one needs to be care of when working on this stuff
18:07	CpidWolf	Hi, sorry i'm late, can someone summup what you are talking about ? =) thanks.
18:08	encompass	yeah... a good place to start would be...
=== CpidWolf is now known as CupidWolf
18:08	encompass	http://launchpad.net/memaker/
18:08	MootBot	LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/memaker/
18:08	encompass	it has all relevent links there
18:08	kwwii	CupidWolf: we are just about to start going through the agenda, talking about getting some pics for MeMaker
18:08	encompass	including general instructions on how to make a themed set
18:09	CupidWolf	okay, thank you
18:09	kwwii	encompass: we might want to add a part to our wiki about this stuff with the links, contact info, etc
18:09	encompass	ok what page would you like me to add that to?
18:09	Who_	encompass: I was thinking when I asked about lists of whether the ubuntu-artwork list had produced anything yet...
18:10	zLox	Hi there. Please decide to ditch Launchpad. It is proprietary and evil!
18:10	encompass	Who_: nope... nothing
18:10	kwwii	hrm, not sure...let me see
18:10	encompass	Actually I think I kind of lost in the mess
18:11	zLox	Evil, I tell thee!
18:11	encompass	It not to hard to get started in memaker... and themes are made in inkscape
18:12	_MMA_	encompass: Has it been packaged yet?
18:12	kwwii	I guess for a start we could put something in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate
18:12	encompass	_MMA_: jsut finishing that... should be ready in a few days
18:12	kwwii	ok, let's get to the agenda before it gets too late
18:12	_MMA_	k
18:13	thorwil	plop!
18:13	encompass	thorwil: hey there...
18:13	kwwii	TOPIC Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:13	kwwii	TOPIC: Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:13	kwwii	erm
18:13	Kver	try the []'s
18:13	encompass	thorwil: has been working on some art
18:13	kwwii	[TOPIC) Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:13	somerville32	[TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:13	kwwii	oh come on
18:14	lapo	kwwii: you really need to learn how to use that bot :-)
=== steph_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:14	Kver	Should I make my lord of the rings reference?
18:14	somerville32	...
18:14	kwwii	steph_: no, not that
18:14	steph_	=) : /topic
18:14	steph_	oops.
18:14	somerville32	kwwii, type what I typed
18:14	thorwil	encompass: i will work on it some more :)  getting worried about how long it atkes, though
18:14	encompass	there we go
18:14	Kver	You missed the second square bracket.
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
18:14	kwwii	lol
18:14	Kver	huzzah!
18:15	kwwii	[TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:15	MootBot	New Topic:  Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
18:15	encompass	thorwil: your working on the life like one right?
18:15	kwwii	w00t
18:15	thorwil	encompass: yes
18:15	encompass	thorwil: as nice at it is... I don't think that is "themed" enough for ubuntu
18:16	thorwil	encompass: let's talk about that another time, gotta be ontopic here ;)
18:16	kwwii	so, in case anyone has not seen the blueprints or heard the news from the mailing list we will not be radically changing Hardy themeing because it is the last in the LTS cycle
18:16	kwwii	Hardy+1 will be the first version with a totally different theme
18:16	kwwii	this does not mean that we should not be working on this stuff now though
18:16	Who_	kwwii: so do we plan to start developing that theme now
18:16	Who_	?
18:17	Who_	(kwwii - using the mootbot, can we all suggest 'ideas, or is that for you?)
18:17	kwwii	we need to get a very good idea of where we want to go now and with Hardy change a few things to show direction and get things together so that we can really start changing things with a plan over a longer time
18:17	kwwii	Who_: no idea
18:17	kwwii	try it
18:17	encompass	if anyone want to continue talking about memaker hope into ubuntu-artwork and we can talk more there
18:18	Who_	[IDEA] We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
18:18	MootBot	IDEA received:  We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
18:18	Who_	6 months seems a very short time for a complete rethink
18:18	kwwii	Who_: exactly, that is the plan but it should be clear that such radical changes will not be included in HArdy
18:18	steph_	ok so Hardy won't have the brand new theme announced on the Web ?
18:18	damianvila	[IDEA] Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
18:18	MootBot	IDEA received:  Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
18:19	kwwii	Who_: doing things on a strictly 6month cycle is like reinventing the wheel every 6 months when there is only so many ways to draw a circle
18:19	Who_	damianvilla: that's a good idea but the NEW theme should be at the beginning of the LTS cycle
18:19	damianvila	*polish, sorry
18:19	Who_	kwwii: I agree :)
18:19	kwwii	damianvila: yes, the plan is that the LTS ends a cycle so in between we will have more major changes which we will polish until that cycle ends with it'S LTS
18:20	Who_	damianvilla: that way when we get to the LTS release it is polished and beautiful
18:20	Kver	On short-term releases, we try new stuff; On long-term releases, we polish...
18:20	kwwii	exactly
18:20	Kver	I'm smurt.
18:20	zLox	[IDEA] We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
18:20	MootBot	IDEA received:  We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
18:20	somerville32	zLox,please stop
18:20	kwwii	as far as icons go, we have so much to do that there is no real break yet
18:20	Who_	kwwii: so then, what are the main targets for polish THIS release - can they go on in the background of a bigger redesign for the NEXT release?
18:20	Kver	He'd hate my toaster, it's proprietary.
18:20	Kver	Burns toast.
18:20	steph_	:D
18:21	kwwii	Who_: some parts of it, yes
18:21	zLox	just the truh
18:21	kwwii	for this release we should look into changing the wallpaper, tweaking the theme with some new elements
18:21	steph_	+1
18:21	kallepersson	+1
18:21	kwwii	I would like to see the work on the panel icons get pretty far
18:22	steph_	we've GOT to change those wallpapers
18:22	somerville32	We've already changed the wallpaper :P
18:22	somerville32	Albeit Alpha 3 may not have one at all :P
18:22	encompass	steph_: Totally agree
18:22	andreasn	I had a list with icons that had some issues that could need some tweaks (pixel alignment etc.), but I can't seem to find the list :/
18:22	Who_	I think wallpapers should be a bigger priority than panel icons
18:22	encompass	agree
18:22	Kver	Agreed.
18:22	somerville32	Who_, Do you mean extra ones or the default one?
18:23	steph_	default one is really, really ugly
18:23	encompass	just a default it cool with me
18:23	kwwii	Who_: sure, but this would be one point were we know now that we want that kind of thing in Hardy+1 so getting it in now is a step in the right direction
18:23	Who_	Because of space on the CD, I think we're always talking about the default, plus a couple of extras
18:23	steph_	who's managing the icon theme ?
18:23	kwwii	we only include the default and two other wallpapers, iirc
18:23	steph_	cause I noticed a few changes in Hardy
18:23	Who_	kwwii: yes, good point. hadn't thought of that
18:23	somerville32	kwwii, We only include two wallpapers including the default
18:24	steph_	the Update available icon is just great
18:24	kwwii	steph_: the human icon theme is maintained by the art team (and myself I guess)
18:24	Kver	I think we should try to have 3, maybe 4 other wallpapers that are -very- different.
18:24	steph_	aren't we the art team ?
18:24	kwwii	somerville32: we also include the one dawn of ubuntu or whatever it is called
18:24	Who_	Kver: remember that we aren't as free as we can be on what we can put in - space is very limited on teh CD
18:24	steph_	yeah
18:24	kwwii	steph_: yes
18:24	steph_	all right
18:24	somerville32	kwwii, ubuntu-wallapers only has two
18:25	somerville32	kwwii, Maybe it is provided by a different package?
18:25	kwwii	somerville32: right
18:25	steph_	I think a really nice one is better than four average
18:25	thorwil	ack
18:25	Who_	kwwii: will there be any colour tweaking for the Human GTK theme?
18:25	Kver	What about the resolution/quality of the file itself?
18:25	Jense	I suggest including four nice ones
18:26	kwwii	so, my whole point is that we need to keep in mind what we are doing in the next 4months and the next 10+ months, how those two things are part of one plan but still seperate
18:26	encompass	I know svg can be hard... but it does save space and looks nice at many resolutions.
18:26	kwwii	Who_: yes, I could imagine us changing things a little bit
18:26	kwwii	Who_: if needed and we come up with something decent
18:26	damianvila	So, Hardy will be a polished Human, right? Maybe witha new wallpaper. Hardy+1 will be a different concept...
18:27	kwwii	damianvila: basicaly
18:27	encompass	dang ... and bummer but it would be most feasable
18:27	steph_	kwwii, I think we still got work to do on the GTK theme, cause I had a look at the Wiki, and none of the theme is good enough, I think
18:27	kwwii	we can start to use some of the ideas though
18:27	kwwii	like the buttons, or the window deco or such
18:27	steph_	yep
18:27	kwwii	we can change quite a bit but we do not want this release to feel like something totally new and untested
18:28	steph_	sure
18:28	kwwii	the point is to know where you want to go in the future and then take little steps toward that
18:28	steph_	but we can tweak a few things
18:28	kwwii	right
18:28	Who_	steph_: you are referring to a NEW theme not being good enough or the current default Human?
18:28	andreasn	changing a theme is a very easy way to break all your applications, so it would probably be safest to make tiny or no changes at all for this release on the gtk theme
18:29	steph_	which one do you mean by NEW one ?
18:29	kwwii	andreasn: right, I can imagine new window decoration buttons, perhaps
18:29	kwwii	and tweaking some colors would go a long way
18:29	Who_	does anyone know whether Human is compliant with Gnome's new colour change system in the Appearance dialogue? Because if it isnt we should probably fix that as a priority
18:29	andreasn	kwwii: sounds sane
18:29	steph_	andreasn, I agree, tiny changes
18:29	kwwii	Who_: no it is still not
18:29	encompass	I want to see something like a new mouse theme too
18:29	Who_	steph_: some of the concepts on the wiki
18:29	thorwil	i think icon tweaks and new wallpaper are  enough for hardy
18:29	lapo	kwwii: window decorations should not be a problem, ui theme probably is
18:29	kwwii	we had a pretty good version but some of the colors where just wrong and nobody could make it better
18:30	Kver	encompass: IDMZ-Black is nice, we could tweak it for a professional look
18:30	steph_	Who_, yeah, there are some ideas we can use, but none of the theme is good enough to be included in Hardy
18:30	kwwii	Who_: that is one thing that we should work towards (and it gives us a good reason to tweak some colors) :-)
18:30	lapo	Kver: please don't use the word professional look :-)
18:30	andreasn	mouse theme is pretty tricky, because the mouse pointer is something that should ideally be as invisible as possible
18:30	lapo	it hasno meaning, really :-)
18:30	Kver	UI theme is the toughie, since we can't control how people use it. If we make changes to the GTK+, we should keep everything in the same engine/dimensions
18:30	Who_	steph_: yea, but Hardy will just be a tweak of existing Human, as per what kwwii has been saying, so they only matter on the 10 month plan :)
18:31	kwwii	Kver: right, for this release no major GTK theme engine change
18:31	lapo	tweaking gtk engine means lot of testing
18:31	steph_	see, a few months ago, I tried many, many themes from Gnome-look, mixed them, tried many thinks, and finally I got back to the Human theme which is, finally, a very good theme
18:31	andreasn	ah, found the url again. :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/GutsyIconReview?highlight=(icon)
18:31	encompass	kwwii: I agree no new gtk engine
18:32	kwwii	and when we change it we will not rename it, it is just a new version even if there are major changes
18:32	kwwii	ok, let's get to the next item in the agenda
18:32	Kver	Ideally, one thing I think is if we edit anything about the GTK theme, we just make it look cleaner, but keep everything else as-is
18:32	lapo	about the gtk theme I'd say to just do small changes here and there to human or use something existing and known to be working with tweaked colors
18:33	kwwii	[TOPIC] Art direction
18:33	MootBot	New Topic:  Art direction
18:34	steph_	this topic means what do we want to do precisely in our GTK theme ?
18:34	kwwii	before, during and after the holidays I have been working on getting all the pieces in place and signed off so that it really is official
18:34	zniavre	roundness menus ?
18:34	kwwii	steph_: no, this means that we are talking about the art direction for the next releases
18:34	Kver	Down the road.
18:35	Kver	... I think.
18:35	kwwii	I have a decent list of answers to some very important questions (audience, message, etc)
18:35	kwwii	Kver: right
18:35	thorwil	cool
18:35	Who_	kwwii: Great :)
18:35	kwwii	I have a somewhat decent palette ready which also includes complementary colors
18:36	Kver	Really, any changes we make now, should be considered part of the plan for the next X years.
18:36	Who_	kwwii: What is the structure for the team planned in the new direction?
18:36	kwwii	next week I will be in London again presenting all this information and showing off mockups and finalizing things
18:36	Keybuk	week after next?
18:36	thorwil	kwwii: we don't get to read it / se it before?
18:36	kwwii	Who_: looking at all the great work from the community recently I think that we will be working closesly with all the teams
18:36	steph_	we should go simple & elegant.
18:36	lapo	kwwii: I hope it goes well with tango palette
18:37	kwwii	Keybuk: erm, right...the week after next
18:37	kwwii	lapo: this palette would not be the entire palette for the icon theme
18:37	Keybuk	you can be in London next week if you like ;) but usually you let your line manager know first <g>
18:37	Who_	kwwii: big questions first: is Mark still calling the design shots? If so, how will he be involved along the way. If  not, who is?
* kwwii likes London so much he wants to spend extra time there
18:38	lapo	kwwii: sure, but I'm saying that I hope it goes well with it
18:38	kwwii	Who_: he and others at canonical are the deciders, most/all info will come through me
18:38	kwwii	but it will still be an open process
* Kver is jelious; Kver gets to go to "Cold Lake"
18:39	kwwii	Kver: yeah, 3 months of getting up early and jogging - have fun
18:39	encompass	Kver: been to cherry grove :P
18:39	Kver	:P
18:39	Who_	kwwii: so you will regularly report back to find out what direction they like best and guide us in it?
18:39	kwwii	lapo: yeah and we will probably have to tweak things to make that work right
18:39	kwwii	Who_: yes
18:39	kwwii	this ties in well with the theme-team item on the agenda
18:40	Who_	kwwii: Indeed.
18:41	kwwii	let's bring that topic into this one for a moment
18:41	Who_	okie.
18:41	lapo	kwwii: good
18:41	kwwii	I am all for people getting together and working together...it might help spread information and help people help each other to create a complete theme idea
18:42	kwwii	but everyone can still feel free to work in any group form they wish
18:43	Who_	kwwii: I think creating some Theme Teams for this release makes sense. It gives us some experience packaging, and making complete themes not just mockups.
18:43	kwwii	so if two people have a great idea and want to work through it, they are free to do so
18:43	kwwii	Who_: especially when it comes to packaging :-)
18:43	Who_	One of the big benefits I see from it is that we don't need the extra layer of design approval that has caused issues in the past
18:43	kwwii	Who_: how did you find the experience of working in a theme team in the past?
18:43	kwwii	anything we could learn from?
18:44	Who_	Well: 1. I am really glad I did it. I feel it was one of the more productive things I have done as part of this team
18:44	Who_	2. It was cool to have people using the theme we'd made
18:45	steph_	Who_, sorry, but which theme did you made ?
18:45	kwwii	Who_: yeah, while we get lot's of nice ideas people often find it hard to finalze things on their own
18:45	kwwii	so working in groups will definitely help with that
18:45	Who_	3. It was difficult to run it truly as a theme team. I had planned that it would be very collaborative. But in the end I ended up calling the design shots. I think that is the way it _needs_ to happen for a complete, cohesive theme
18:45	Who_	steph_ I made hte Blubuntu theme
=== damianvila_ is now known as damianvila
18:46	steph_	let me find it...
18:46	kwwii	Who_: I think that with the theme team idea there are some people who are better at some things, etc.
18:46	Who_	indeed - Pingunz made the GDM much better than I would have done in Blubuntu :)
18:46	kwwii	that is natural in any art project that one person tends to form the ideas
18:46	steph_	Who_, nice work ;)
18:46	kwwii	looking at the wiki it should not be too hard to get some teams together
18:47	Kver	It almost makes teams that run like miniature Apple design teams, by the sounds of it.
18:47	Who_	kwwii: Well, I think we struggle at the moment to find anyone to be IN a team or to lead them - not many people have stepped up after the email I wrote suggesting it
18:47	kwwii	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate is packed with good ideas, I think that if we took a couple of the popular ones and got people together it would be a good start
18:48	Who_	kwwii: great - I agree
18:48	Who_	kwwii: Troy suggest Launchpadding the theme team idea. Shall I do that?
18:48	kwwii	[ACT]
18:48	kwwii	ahhh
18:48	_MMA_	Who_: Ill hop in once a team is formed around a particular concept.
18:48	lapo	kwwii: most of the theme I see there are pretty impossible to do with current gtk, we'd need hackers
18:49	kwwii	[ACTION] kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
18:49	MootBot	ACTION received:  kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
18:49	_MMA_	lapo: On that note, who is keeping track of the technical capabilities of say GNOME and Compiz to make sure we are creating things its actually capable of doing?
18:49	kwwii	lapo: this is the long term idea we are looking for, not the specifics or an implemented thing
18:49	Who_	kwwii: Can I suggest that I think it is important that we encourage people to think of themes that aren't hugley like the defualt theme
18:49	steph_	lapo, first they can't be realized, second I don't think they are really good
18:49	kwwii	_MMA_: my colleagues in the desktop team like macslow
18:50	kwwii	I ask him for permission after I make a mockup :-)
18:50	steph_	there are good ideas, but they can't do the next default theme
18:50	Who_	steph_: There's a solution to that ;)
18:50	lapo	steph_: there are some ideas I like
18:50	steph_	yeah, me too
18:50	steph_	well, let's see
18:50	steph_	what do you think about the Union Mockup ?
18:50	steph_	well, not quite the topic, in fact.
18:50	lapo	some elemts are good, but the mockup is pretty generic
18:51	_MMA_	kwwii: Sure so the theme team leaders will need to liaise with MacSlow.
18:51	Kver	It was made to be -very- generic...
18:51	damianvila	Artwork should be in sync with the release's technical constrains, I think
18:51	kwwii	when it comes down to every little thing that we cannot do now we will have to keep in contact with those people, and actually that is part of my job
18:51	lapo	Kver: I mean few gtk widget themed
18:51	lapo	widgets
18:51	Who_	kwwii: in your eyes, are these theme teams aiming for Hardy or Hardy+1?
18:51	kwwii	so much of this information can come through me (but not all of it has to)
18:52	kwwii	Who_: Hardy+1
18:52	_MMA_	Who_: I think it should be up to the team to decide.
18:52	kwwii	there are some very good ideas out there and we need to look at what we can do now, in the short term and what we can do in the long term
18:52	kwwii	but without these ideas down on papaer we cannot get anywhere other than another bad version of where we already were
18:52	Kver	If we look long-term, very much like OSX, we should look at a goal and figure out how to reasonably built to that goal over several releases.
18:53	steph_	kwwii, is there any theme on the Wiki which is looking really good to you ?
18:53	andreasn	I think it would be pretty nice seeing some of those gtk themes implemented, always interesting to see how far you can push gtk
18:53	Who_	kwwii: indeed. When the themeteams were lat run, we were aiming to provide some easy to get alternatives to the default.... It wasn't supposed to be super flashy, it was supposed to be good design with what we had.
18:54	kwwii	steph_: I found interesting ideas in several of them, I'll get to that a bit later
18:55	Who_	kwwii: I also see theme teams as an important way to democratise the art available in Ubuntu - with the default theme _ultimately_ at the behest of canonical, there is a limit to how much a team can contribute.
18:55	steph_	and by the way, working with a team is much more motivating
18:55	Who_	but with community developed themes we can get more contributions _into Ubuntu_ from more people
18:56	kwwii	Who_: yes, if the information flows both ways and is shown to the deciders in the right form and manner
18:56	kwwii	I would really like to see as many community made themes as possible packaged
18:56	kwwii	and I hate to see people get hung up on the default theme
18:56	_MMA_	Who_: Exactly. Once one stops trying to be the default its alot easier to get a theme package into Ubuntu.
* _MMA_ has even rolled a live disk using Blubuntu. ;)
18:58	Who_	agreed. It feels to me often like the artwork team stumbles because we have so many people working towards _one_ thing that is decided by very few.
18:58	kwwii	there is no one person who decides on the default theme so people should not think like "I made that theme" or "he made that theme" as there are really a lot of people involved with lots and lots of pieces
18:58	kwwii	over a long time, really
18:58	damianvila	But whoever wants to do it's own theme doesn't need to come here to discuss anything, right? He/She just need to build it and show it to the rest...
18:58	Who_	kwwii: so you don't feel that you are limited in what you can realisticly present to canonical?
18:59	kwwii	damianvila: if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme
18:59	kwwii	Who_: oh, I am certainly limited...I am not going to show any crack artwork and push it
19:00	kwwii	but I think that the sky is the limit with good ideas
19:00	Who_	Can I point out, I don't think that the limited control over the default is any failing of the art team, or it's running - it is the way it has to be :)
19:00	Who_	kwwii: cool!
19:00	lapo	kwwii: good ideas are nothing without anyone implementing/working on them tho :-)
19:01	Who_	I notice they were looking for a 'Conceptual Human Interface Designer'  a while back - does that impact us for Hardy +1? Who is it?
19:01	Who_	(they being Canonical)
19:01	_MMA_	kwwii: "if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme" Sure but you have to admit that the "theme team" idea has come from people feeling too restricted by working with the default process.
19:01	Munchkinguy	Speaking of alternate themes, I'd like to point out that art.ubuntu.com doesn't exist anymore.
19:01	kwwii	lapo: good ideas tend to get implemented one way or the other and if we decide that we want to do something I am sure we will work towards it if it is possible
19:02	kwwii	_MMA_: not sure I get you
19:02	lapo	kwwii: yeah, sure that wasn't my point, but no probs
19:02	kwwii	_MMA_: I think it is simply overwhelming for most people to create an entire theme on their own
19:03	steph_	kwwii, hey, what about the art.ubuntu.com  ?
19:03	steph_	didn't you say it'll be back ?
19:03	lapo	steph_: do you feel it is really needed?
19:03	steph_	don't know, never seen how it is
19:03	kwwii	steph_: yes, it should be coming, we are waiting for the code to get through the approval process
19:03	steph_	all right
19:03	Who_	lapo, steph, kwwii: If we are doing theme-teams, something more structured than a wiki would rock
19:03	_MMA_	kwwii: Ill talk later about it.
19:04	Who_	kwwii: does it link in with Launchpad and ease packaging?
19:04	kwwii	_MMA_: ok, cool
19:04	steph_	Who_, +1, cause the Wiki is a little messy I think
19:04	lapo	Who_: tools are usefull, but people is more  important :-)
19:04	kwwii	Who_: yes, it is integrated with launchpad
19:04	kwwii	that is one of the sticking points, I think
19:04	Who_	kwwii: and the packaging? Can you create a 'theme' and it will spit out a package?
19:04	kwwii	I asked around the other day but have no response as yet
19:05	lapo	well packaging a theme should not be a big issue
19:05	Who_	lapo: Indeed. I can't help but feel that we're not failing on the people front though....
19:05	kwwii	Who_: nope, the automaticArtworkBuilder was the only way to come close to doing that
19:05	_MMA_	kwwii: We have been waiting on code approval for what 3 months now? And if you saw the last meeting Mark himself said Canonical has a backup for their sysadmin stuff alone. I think we just drop it for Hardy.
19:05	kwwii	Who_: and people found that to be too limiting and also too complicated .p
19:05	Who_	kwwii: I'm a bit guilty I know nothing of theme packaging. dholbach packaged Blubuntu
19:05	somerville32	I'm available to do any packaging required
19:05	somerville32	Please feel free to hit me up anytime :)
19:06	kwwii	_MMA_: we'll see what we can do and when we can do it...it might be getting too late though, you are right
19:06	kwwii	somerville32 is my new best friend ;-)
19:06	Who_	smoerville32: You know the art packaging dance?
19:06	Who_	somerville32: ^ (mistyped name)
* _MMA_ notes that ubuntustudio-look is in better shape than example-look atm if anyone needs some reference.
19:07	kwwii	the example look package needs a good doing through
19:07	kwwii	but there is only so much one can do at a time :p
19:07	somerville32	aye :)
19:07	somerville32	Where is the example package located at?
19:07	Who_	many hands make light work :P
19:08	steph_	I've got to go
19:08	steph_	cya all
19:08	jpatrick	kwwii: bug #163599 maybe?
19:08	kwwii	Who_: but almost all of that content has the logos and company stuff all over it
19:08	ubotu	Launchpad bug 163599 in example-content "[PATCH] Corrected kubuntu-leafet.png" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163599
19:08	_MMA_	somerville32: Talk with TheMuso to shape up example-look as he cleaned up ubuntustudio-look.
* somerville32 nods.
19:08	Who_	kwwii: which content?
19:09	somerville32	So, is everyone familiar with the changes to how we package artwork for Hardy?
19:09	_MMA_	https://launchpad.net/example-look
19:09	kwwii	erm, I meant the example-content package :p
19:09	kwwii	hehe, oops
19:09	Who_	somerville32: maybe a post to the list on that
19:09	kwwii	the example-look stuff was put together pretty quickly
19:10	kwwii	if anyone wants to have a wack at fixing that package up, feel totally free
19:10	_MMA_	kwwii: somerville32 will do that with TheMuso. ;)
19:10	kwwii	I'm tempted to add that as an action
19:10	somerville32	_MMA_, Maybe file a bug on launchpad and make sure I'm assigned or something?
19:11	_MMA_	Im sure you can handle that. ;)
19:11	kwwii	[ACTION] somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
19:11	MootBot	ACTION received:  somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
19:11	somerville32	_MMA_, Developers are lazy beasts. :P
19:12	kwwii	it looks like we made our way through most of the items, one way or another
19:12	kwwii	anyone have anything else to add?
19:12	kwwii	ahhh, right, let's talk about some of the mockups
19:12	somerville32	Yes
19:12	somerville32	Can we remove the topic lock in -artwork ?
19:12	somerville32	and set a sane topic too? :)
19:13	kwwii	somerville32: we can certainly change the topic but I think having it locked is not a bad idea
19:13	kwwii	there are a couple of people who can change it
19:14	somerville32	-devel isn't even topic locked
19:14	kwwii	hrm, I guess I can ask around and get advice and then figure out how to do it
19:15	_MMA_	If anyone wants to look at example-look now can use bzr to do it. bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/example-look/dev
19:15	kwwii	my /topic skills end at setting the topic :p
19:15	somerville32	kwwii, You might ask jdub to give you channel ownership
19:15	andreasn	:)
19:15	kwwii	:p
19:15	kwwii	since he is such a good friend
19:15	Who_	just occurred to me. Maybe at the start of the next meeting we can quickly equate our irc names to names on the list - it might help a bit :)
19:15	somerville32	kwwii, are you being sarcastic?
19:15	kwwii	Who_: yeah, i forgot to do that this time, sorry
* kwwii ? sarcastic? never
19:16	somerville32	lol
* somerville32 is so confused due to the lack of inherent bandwidth for sarcasm over a text medium
19:16	kwwii	[TOPIC] work in progress
19:16	MootBot	New Topic:  work in progress
19:17	kwwii	looking through the wiki these themes gave me a positive impression:
19:18	kwwii	BasicIdeals, Kerberos, SatinRibbon, SmoothMergedGradients, SzerencsefiaGTKIdea, Union, gelatin,
19:18	andreasn	gelatin is already implemented by some dude, and we should be able to package it without much difficulties
19:19	kwwii	and I kinda liked some of the line ideas in the Fela_Kuti wallpaper
19:19	kwwii	andreasn: killer, do you know who is working on that personally?
19:19	andreasn	well, vdepizzol did the mockup, can't remember the name of the dude who implemented it from the top of my head
19:20	andreasn	but I can look it up
19:20	thorwil	kwwii: i have all links open. shpuld i paste them?
19:20	Who_	Go for it....
19:20	kwwii	thorwil: hehe, I spent all the time cutting the names out of the links
19:20	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
19:20	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
19:20	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
19:20	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
19:20	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
19:21	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
19:21	thorwil	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/gelatin
19:21	Kver	http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
19:21	MootBot	LINK received:  http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
19:22	Who_	do we have Murrine i Ubuntu?
19:22	kwwii	]http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
19:22	kwwii	http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
19:22	kwwii	http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
19:22	kwwii	http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
19:22	MootBot	LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
19:22	MootBot	LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
19:22	MootBot	LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
19:22	kwwii	http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
19:22	MootBot	LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
19:22	_MMA_	Who_: Yep.
19:22	kwwii	http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
19:22	MootBot	LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
19:22	kwwii	now they are properly in the bot thingy and minutes
19:23	thorwil	weird
19:23	Who_	_MMA_: How new? How up to date do the packages stay? (ie, how realistic is it to suggest argb for Hardy+1)
19:23	kwwii	the ideas that I really like are simplified window decoration (no line between windeco and menu) and simplified window buttons
19:23	_MMA_	Who_: Ubuntu Studio got it in for Feisty and have used it since.
19:24	kwwii	I dig the color brown and some of the transparency ideas as well
19:24	_MMA_	Cimi says a update should come from him soon but he was waiting on word from kwwii.
19:24	Kver	I think the smoothness of Szerencsefia is just plain beautiful, if we could implement it with offical colours and a clean GTK we culd have a winner
19:24	Who_	_MMA_: You maintain it?
19:24	kwwii	somehow I do get the feeling that a lot of them use too much saturation when making the window brown though
19:24	_MMA_	Who_: Someone on my team yes. Though others have touched it.
19:25	Who_	I find Szerencsefia too shinny for me
19:25	kwwii	Kver: yeah, that is a good idea to look in to
19:25	Who_	_MMA_: thanks. Not really sure why I asked P
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19:26	Who_	hmmm. Union just hit me as 'the GTK Theme that likes fake tan' :P I really like it, but that thought made me chuckle. Perhaps it's a little bit too orange?
19:26	Kver	I'm a big fan of the "slab" window layout, where it looks like one big peice.
19:27	kwwii	Who_: after talking to macslow using alpha in the windows is not a big problem on the longer scale of things
19:27	kwwii	Kver: yeah, me too
19:27	Who_	kwwii: Awesome. If we can do it _tastefully_ then that seems good. On the whole though, I think that it might be something we have to wait for upstream apps to do to do tastefully....
19:28	kwwii	Who_: yeah, and keep the effect down to a minimum, I would guess
19:28	Who_	kver, kwwii: To slabs, me too.
19:28	_MMA_	kwwii: Something that kinda comes into play is the HP needed to do alphas and Compiz and whatever we come up with. Should that be kept in mind when creating?
19:28	Who_	kwwii: exactly - unless it is done on an App level it will be everywhere --> too much
19:29	kwwii	_MMA_: naturally we will still need a fallback for when it is not possible
19:29	_MMA_	kwwii: ie: pixmaps and svg icon themes can be slower but with newier machines this is less of a issue.
19:29	kwwii	another good reason to keep it as simple as possible
19:30	kwwii	crazy effects tend to just get in your way in the long run anyway
19:30	kwwii	you do not just want to look at the computer but also use it
19:30	_MMA_	kwwii: Sure, but how long do we cater to older machines? Kinda slows progress a bit.
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
19:30	kwwii	although I guess our goal is to get people to just stare at it :p
19:30	Kver	We should have 2 seperate versions of the themes almost, one designed specifically for low-end machenes, one for the bleeding edge almost...
19:30	kwwii	Kver: exactly
19:30	_MMA_	I dont agree.
19:31	Who_	I think a theme that did more if under a compoisited environment but looked very similar normally is ideal
19:31	kwwii	_MMA_: nothing we can do about that until we know that it is working pretty much everywhere
19:31	kwwii	Who_: I agree
19:31	Who_	I think also we _should_ be keeping simple - progress for progress sake is not progress
19:31	kwwii	2 to 1, Cory loses :p
19:32	Kver	The only middle-gorund is one single GTK, one metacity and one emerald.
19:32	_MMA_	I dont agree with 2 themes I guess is more to the point. But how long do we do that really?
19:32	kwwii	_MMA_: only as long as we have to
19:32	Who_	but surely a theme engine that checked to see if it ran under a composited envirnment and did rounded corners if it was would be ideal?
19:32	Kver	Well, one theme could be either a atriped-down or a built-up version of the other.
19:32	kwwii	we would want to get away from that as soon as possible as it is much more work
19:33	Who_	(obviously, rounded corners is an example :P)
19:33	kwwii	I am guessing it would be a matter of phasing it out
19:33	kwwii	or limiting the updates more and more over time
19:33	Kver	I think square-corners in the GTK would be good. Rounded corners are great and all, but it's one of those "we know we can do it, now let's move on"
19:33	Who_	or just making one theme depend on Compiz or something - then if you don't install compiz you get the old theme, if you do you get the new one?
19:33	kwwii	Who_: yeah, something like that
19:34	Kver	I beleive Cimi said ppa themes would work normally under a non-composited enviornment.
19:34	Who_	Kver: I remember reading that too.
19:34	kwwii	if so, good :-)
19:34	Who_	kwwii: what kind of structure were you thinking of for the development of the Hardy +1 theme?
19:34	Kver	But for the sake of keeping things safe and bug-free, I'm temtped to say go with 2 GTK themes...
19:35	_MMA_	Who_: Compiz is installed and on by default now. I dont think your idea would work.
19:35	Who_	_MMA_: I think you might be right. Perhaps the application to enable compiz could write hit the theme gconf key?
* _MMA_ just hopes someone tests all this new hotness we're talking about. :P
19:36	damianvila	kwwii: can you arrange a concept from what you like in those mockups and put it in the wiki as a reference? how feasible are those elements you like to be included in Ubuntu Hardy+1?
19:36	kwwii	Who_: I think that once the art direction is clear we start communicating with the theme teams about who to move forward and see what comes of that
19:36	kwwii	eventually we will have a couple of people working on parts of the default theme with direction
19:36	Kver	What about the effects window in all this? It has 4 options for the level of effects, would this be something to consider in the theme design?
19:37	Who_	kwwii: damianvila has a great point: can you make some kind of announcement of what is 'popular' with you and the Canonical guys?
19:37	Kver	Have 4 configurations of the theme based on level of effects?
19:37	_MMA_	kwwii: 1) When will it be clear? :) 2) Why would yo uneed to communicate with the theme teams? I thought the point was to work on themes independent of Ubuntu?
19:37	kwwii	damianvila: yes, I should go through the mockups and highlight parts and ideas
19:37	Who_	Kver: sounds kind of nice :) but a lot of work, potentially - as themes aren't as easily 'deblingable' as compiz is...
19:38	kwwii	I'll have a set of possiblities together any day now (based on one idea that I have been working on), I'll try to explain the desired tidbits there as well
19:38	Kver	Who_: It would mostly be a script that chooses from a small selection of pre-made peices.
19:39	Kver	Like "Light" effects might use a non-ppa GTK but the Emerald frame.
19:39	Who_	Kver: like sucking out bits of gtkrc to make a theme? Or swapping between some complete gtkrcs?
19:39	kwwii	the stuff that I am currently working on is a single window style using varying background colors and elements to show the possibilities of using color
19:40	Who_	kwwii: would you say it is fair to say that ultimately the default theme for Hardy will be designed by you based on submissions?
19:40	Kver	Who_: Just swapping between existing themes, not generating themes on the spot.
19:40	damianvila	kwwii: the palette is the one you sent to the list? (palette.pdf?)
19:40	Who_	Kver: yup. sounds doable. Would probably break when not using Ubuntu's theme?
19:40	kwwii	Who_: not necessarily just by myself but I will have to play a part in order to communicate ideas
19:40	kwwii	damianvila: yes
19:40	damianvila	kwwii: ok
19:41	kwwii	sooooo...if everyone thinks we have covered everything we can call and end to the meeting
19:41	Who_	kwwii: Cool, do you  think perhaps it would be good to make that more clear on the list? It seems to meever other day someone thinks their theme might be the default....
19:41	andreasn	sure, thanks for now
19:42	andreasn	next meeting in a month?
19:42	Who_	yea, seems done for now
19:42	Kver	Who_: It could either warn the user, or just detect wether the user is using a custom theme.
19:42	kwwii	Who_: I send emails about that again and again (and it is in the wiki, etc) but yes, I could send it again
19:42	Who_	kwwii:  :)
19:42	kwwii	we should point everyone to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/FAQ when possible and get that complete
19:43	Kver	Well, depending on who I run into before I go, I just want to say good luck to everyone I don't see again. :D
19:43	Kver	well, for the next few months, at least.
19:43	kwwii	Kver: dude, thanks so much for the awesome work
19:43	Kver	:P
19:43	kwwii	you are welcome back even if your have no hair ;-)
* _MMA_ salutes.
19:43	kwwii	Kver: if there is anything else you need or any way I can help, just drop me a note
19:43	Kver	Heh, thanks all!
19:44	Kver	Million dollars in unmarked bills, dropped off at...
19:44	Who_	Kver: nice work, thanks!
19:44	kwwii	nahhh, the government would wonder where you got it all at, it would be more trouble than good
19:45	Who_	kwwii: Make it 1/2 a million then. That seems well withtin government's tolerable corruption levels
19:45	Kver	Mwaha, time for a trip to Mexico!
19:45	kwwii	thanks everyone for taking part in the meeting, they keep getting better and better every time
19:45	kwwii	#endmeeting
19:45	MootBot	Meeting finished at 19:45.
19:46	kwwii	boah, 1 3/4 hours
19:46	Kver	Goodbye, MootBot!
19:46	kwwii	I am soo good at talking
19:46	_MMA_	pfftt..
19:46	thorwil	lol
19:46	_MMA_	You just like the sound. :P
19:46	kwwii	I actually talk to my chat client while typing
19:46	_MMA_	haha
19:47	Who_	kwwii: really!?
19:47	zniavre	:o)
19:47	_MMA_	Yeah. Saying how everyone is full of it. :D
19:47	thorwil	kwwii: does he respond?
19:47	kwwii	thorwil: my wife says she can't hear it but I can :p
19:47	Who_	okie. Bye all!
19:47	kwwii	night all, have a nice evening
19:47	kwwii	or day or whatever
19:47	thorwil	bye!
19:48	damianvila	Bye
19:49	Who_	kwwii: let me guess: you're too afraid to tell it to love? (http://xkcd.com/144/)
19:51	kwwii	Who_: exactly
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