=== Mez_ is now known as Mez
* persia peers about09:57
e-jatwb persia09:57
* MaWaLe tracks persia09:57
hito_jphi all.09:58
linuxmalaysiahi all09:58
GunbladeIVhi hito_jp09:58
TheMusoHey folks.c09:59
MaWaLehey TheMuso09:59
MaWaLehi folks09:59
zulmalc_hi all10:00
persiaamachu said he'd be late.  Do we have elky and lifeless ?10:01
PmDematagodahello, did I miss the meeting?10:06
persiaPmDematagoda, Nope.  We're just getting organised.10:06
persiaelky, Hey.10:07
PmDematagodapersia: ah, thanks :)10:07
persiaSo were waiting for one of lifeless or amachu, and we'll be all set.10:07
khanh_coltechhi all :)10:09
PmDematagodahey khanh_coltech10:10
khanh_coltechsorry i'm late :)10:10
PmDematagodakhanh_coltech: the meeting hasnt started yet10:10
hito_jphi khanh_coltech. dont worry, we are waiting for quorum.10:10
persiaHmm.  I think we're waiting for amachu then, who ought arrive around half-past.  lifeless doesn't appear to be here.  So if you're glued to the screen, you may wish to take a short break.10:15
elkymmm chocolate caaaake10:18
elkypersia, that should make them hunt for food ;)10:18
e-jatelky: how bout ice cream :)10:18
linuxmalaysiayeah. Im feeling hungry now.10:18
elkye-jat, none of that in my freezer. i has the cake though. and it's cakey and chocolatey10:19
umarzukii already ate ;-)10:19
* e-jat still at the office ... freezer empty ..10:19
=== khanh_coltech is now known as ubot1
=== ubot1 is now known as khanh_coltech
=== cz is now known as zaafouri
elkysorry, got disconnected. did i miss anything?10:31
khanh_coltechelky: nothing :)10:31
persiaRIght.  amachu was planning to be only 30 minutes late.  I'm tempted to wait around just in case, as I'd like to have had at least one successful meeting this month.10:31
persiaelky, TheMuso: Are you still good to wait?10:31
TheMusopersia: yes10:31
TheMusoI'm fine till approx 12:15UTC10:32
elkypersia, i am. i cant guarantee i wont lag out again though10:33
ApOgEE-hi persia10:33
elkystupid australian intarwebs10:33
ApOgEE-hi e-jat10:33
ApOgEE-hi TheMuso10:33
elkyi need to go about 45 mins earlier than that10:33
ApOgEE-hi elky10:33
ApOgEE-hi nbliang10:43
nblianghi ApOgEE-10:43
e-jatbelutz also not here :(10:45
linuxmalaysiasaya hairan ada 137 in the room10:47
linuxmalaysiatapi tak ramai yang bercakap10:47
linuxmalaysiaopp sori wrong window10:47
e-jathmm ...10:48
persiaHrm.  There's other meetings happening later, and I think we didn't achieve quorum again :(10:54
elkyyeah. we need that team expansion already10:55
e-jathmm .. i cant contact belutz .. since he bz with something nowday ..10:55
linuxmalaysiaMaybe ubuntu member from Malaysia can help on that10:56
umarzukiminimum applying member needed?10:56
khanh_coltechwe will still wait?11:00
ApOgEE-hi BuffaloSoldier11:00
BuffaloSoldierhi ApOgEE-11:00
ApOgEE-BuffaloSoldier, how r u doing?11:00
elkywe need suggestions for nominations of people who are members, who represent the region and are connected enough to know who people are and what is involved with most aspects of contribution11:00
nbliangelky, any guide on applying for it?11:01
elkyif people know who you are and what you do, then they nominate you.11:02
nbliangcan we nominate them here?11:03
elkyyou may want to check with them first. it's manners to do so.11:04
ApOgEE-the nominator is ubuntu member is it?11:04
persianbliang, Also, please nominate by mail to ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania@lists.ubuntu.com11:04
persiaApOgEE-, Yes.11:04
ApOgEE-hi GunbladeIV11:04
elkyit would be preferable. otherwise random joe 1 could nominate random joe 211:05
nbliangelky: , persia : noted11:05
GunbladeIVApOgEE-, hi ApOgEE- ..11:06
GunbladeIVelky, persia : so we will have a meeting due to not enough quorum isnt it?11:06
elkynow, since the meeting seems like it will not happen, please take random chatter elsewhere so as not to pollute meeting logs.11:07
GunbladeIVs/will/will not/g11:07
elkyGunbladeIV, yes, we lack quorum today11:07
GunbladeIVelky, okay.  Hope to be here again next time.(as a candidate)11:08
umarzukiwhen the next will be then?11:08
elkytwo weeks from now.11:08
GunbladeIVelky, noted.11:11
TheMusoIn that case, unless there is anything else from either persia or elky, I shall return to my personal work. :)11:12
persiaTheMuso, Good night.11:13
umarzukithanks anyway11:14
=== ziroday` is now known as ziroday
=== bahaya is now known as GunbladeIV
lifelesspersia: elky bah, tz confusion *again*12:11
persiavorian, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar12:32
vorianthanks persia12:33
jkbyswrong chat box, sorry13:01
MootBotMeeting started at 10:01. The chair is mdz.15:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:01
mdzTechnical Board meeting, 2009-03-2415:02
mdzcjwatson,Keybuk,sabdfl: ping15:02
mdzdholbach: ping15:02
mdz[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:02
sabdflhello all15:02
Keybukmdz: I'm here15:02
mdzI think we need dholbach for several of these items15:03
mdzvorian: are you here?15:03
vorianmdz: yes sir15:03
mdzcjwatson: can you cover archive reorg?15:03
mdz[TOPIC] Archive reorg (and corresponding governance changes)15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Archive reorg (and corresponding governance changes)15:04
cjwatsonI had a phone call with Jono and Daniel to go over it15:04
cjwatsonDaniel has been working on a timeline as a result of this15:04
cjwatsonroughly, it puts us doing a transition of developer permissions in June15:05
cjwatsonthere are a number of decisions flagged for TB action along the way15:05
mdzanything we should start thinking about now?15:06
cjwatsonwe need to start preparing text about what's going to happen, to help developers15:06
cjwatsonwe need to decide on changes to the developer application process15:06
cjwatsonand MOTU Council charter review I believe15:07
cjwatsonwe need to decide on a rough process for administering package sets15:07
cjwatsonlater on, we'll need to look at unifying processes for handling new packages15:07
cjwatsonI'll get Daniel to send some more detail to technical-board@ to kick-start a discussion15:08
mdzcjwatson: thanks15:08
mdzcjwatson: is there anything we can/should cover in this meeting or shall we move on?15:08
cjwatsonI think we can move on15:08
mdz[TOPIC] Upload permission for Romain Francoise for 'emacs-snapshot15:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Upload permission for Romain Francoise for 'emacs-snapshot15:09
sabdflwe won't have package sets for june, so we'll need to fake it on the permissions client15:09
dholbachmdz: around15:09
sabdflach, too slow :-)15:09
dholbachmdz: I mailed Romain and offered to help with the application, but got no reply yet15:09
mdzdholbach: how long ago?15:09
dholbachsome time last week15:10
dholbachbut Emmet mailed him a wek or two before that already15:10
cjwatsonsabdfl: this is new information, and more pessimistic than I've been hearing from Julian and Muharem15:10
dholbachI'll try to locate him together with siretart15:10
mdzdholbach: shall we take this off of the TB list for now?  we can consider it MOTU Council territory until we hear otherwise15:11
dholbachmdz: yep, that's fin15:11
mdz[TOPIC] codecs in ffmpeg15:11
MootBotNew Topic:  codecs in ffmpeg15:11
mdzdholbach again15:11
dholbachmdz: no news I'm afraid - Amanda is still working on a general policy15:11
dholbachJono and I have been in touch with her, it's still WIP15:11
dholbachno due date yet, will ask15:12
mdzdholbach: what can we do to help move it forward?15:12
mdzperhaps sabdfl would prefer to handle this more informally, I don't know15:12
sabdflcjwatson: ok, i was being pessimistic, if you have better info, i'm happy to go with that15:12
dholbachmdz: I don't know - I haven't seen any of that work yet - I can try asking for a more detailed roadmap of the document if you like15:13
mdzsabdfl: we've asked for legal guidance on how we should handle this, but it has been stalled for a long time.  should we be doing something different?15:13
sabdflmdz: i don't have good advice for you15:14
cjwatsonsabdfl: Julian has been steering clear of giving me a firm date as yet, but he's been talking about the guts of the implementation happening during April - of course I'm OK with faking it client-side for the time being if that slips15:14
cjwatson(anyway, yes, we've moved on)15:14
dholbachmdz: it might help to split up the discussion15:14
dholbachmdz: siretart asked me two things: 1) is it good enough to disable the code that has to do with patents or does it need to be purged completely and15:14
dholbach2) which codecs / which patents15:15
sabdflmdz: i'm inclined to split patent claims into the "alleged" and "judge-tested" categories15:15
sabdflwe don't have the resources to separate claims except on the basis of court ink15:15
sabdfli think.15:15
cjwatsonalso "expired" in some of these cases (which is not entirely facetious because some have expired in some jurisdictions but not others)15:15
mdzsabdfl: one of the questions is, if we have reason to be concerned about a particular patent, how do we respond?  is it OK to skip compiling the relevant code, or do we need to patch it out of the source?15:16
cjwatsonI sent a mail a while back about the expiry situation of one of the ffmpeg patents15:16
sabdflcompile it out15:16
mdzcjwatson: indeed, jono has that email15:16
cjwatsonof course, there is a well-known effect where a submarine holder pops up just before its expiry date, so "about to expire" is not de facto safe15:16
mdzdholbach: sabdfl has answered 1) above15:17
dholbachmdz: ok, I'll relay that to  siretart15:18
mdzsabdfl: what do you think we should do in each of those circumstances (alleged, judge-tested, expired)?15:18
sabdflabout to expire - jfdi15:21
sabdflexpired - ship it15:21
sabdfljudge-tested - escalate and consider15:22
sabdflin each case, there would be an assessment of jurisdiction15:22
sabdflif there is a judge-tested patent in andorra, would we not ship it? i think we would15:22
sabdflthis makes it very hard for me to say anything other than "we should review the cases"15:22
sabdflso, who's "we"?15:23
sabdflbest answer i have there is canonical legal15:23
dholbachsabdfl: how do you think this process is going to work? "if concerned bring up with TB, they then get in touch with Canonical legal"?15:23
sabdflthat's a reasonable start, imo15:23
cjwatsonrealistically I suspect most of the interesting cases are going to be US and EU, with the odd case where it's expired in some jurisdictions but not others15:24
cjwatsonsorry, US and/or EU15:24
sabdflsorry that i can't provide stronger guidance15:24
sabdflactually, maybe i can15:24
mdzsabdfl: I think the most common case is "alleged", so we most need the guidance there15:24
sabdflbut i need to caucus with Amanda on that15:24
sabdflin general, i think any patent holder making such an allegation should raise it with the TB15:26
sabdfli think third-party allegations aren't going to be sufficiently tangible for us to be able to invest time in parsing and considering them15:26
sabdfli.e. if someone comes along and says "there is a patent that i think covers this code", i don't think we can usefully invest a lot of time in that15:27
cjwatsonwe need to split that into two cases: (1) code already in Ubuntu (2) code not already in Ubuntu15:27
sabdflif someone comes along and says "i have a patent that i believe covers this code", then that's more manageable15:27
mdzthat leads to a process like "the TB maintains a record of any patent allegations.  if a developer has a question or concern regarding a certain patent, they should contact the technical board, who will advise as to whether they are aware of an issue.  anyone who becomes aware of an allegation should forward it to the TB"15:28
cjwatsonfor (1) I agree; for (2) this guidance sounds like "ship it until we have good reason to believe we may not" but I would like clarity there as there are cases where complying with a cease-and-desist will be difficult15:28
sabdflcjwatson: any cease-and-desist would be very difficult for us. copyright. trademark. patent. url-prefix.15:29
sabdflwe don't control the mirror network15:29
cjwatsonindeed, so some level of avoidance is rational, but not necessarily panic-level avoidance15:30
sabdflare you worried about specific cases more than others?15:30
cjwatsonno, just a general point that I would like to avoid getting into a situation where we have to pull an Ubuntu release15:30
sabdflmsft's suit against tom-tom - does that mean we should remove FAT support from Hardy?15:30
sabdfli think not, myself15:30
cjwatsonpresumably the amount of risk we're willing to take depends somewhat on the usefulness of the technology to us15:31
cjwatsonFAT is extremely useful; an individual media codec, say, may be less so15:32
sabdflwell, a lawyer could turn that into "presumably our willingness to steal depends on the value of the jewels"15:32
sabdfland i don't think that would be a correct characterisation of our approach15:32
sabdfli would say that our approach is more "we will engage with rights holders openly"15:33
cjwatsonin the msft case I'm not sure the facts are clear yet, nor that msft has made any kind of general statement about the situation of fat15:33
sabdflso far, we haven't had any rights-holders engage with us15:33
sabdflthey've said that this suit is NOT a prelude to a general series of suits15:33
sabdflbut, they've also acted in ways that suggest it might be15:33
sabdflhowever, microsoft violates many patents, and is often found in court to be doing so15:34
cjwatsonwhat I meant by (2) above was a process for archive administrators to follow when dealing with new packages that are alleged to have some level of patent risk associated with them15:34
mdzI suggest we wrap up this topic in the next 5 minutes to allow time for the rest of the agenda15:34
sabdflso, i'm sure they would have raised any issues with us that they are concerned about, being familiar with the system15:34
cjwatsonin that case, the rights holder is not going to have engaged with us yet, since we aren't shipping it yet15:34
sabdflgood point15:34
sabdflok, for shipping code, we'll engage with rights holders15:34
sabdflfor code that is proposed, allegations or concerns should be raised with the TB15:35
sabdfland we'll decide what to do15:35
sabdflperhaps in consultation with canonical-legal or SFLC or OIN15:35
mdzsabdfl: ok, that brings us full circle.  siretart has raised a concern with the TB and we need to decide what to do :-)15:35
sabdflthanks mdz :-)15:35
sabdflare there any new codecs proposed for inclusion in ffmpeg for jaunty?15:35
* dholbach doesn't know15:36
cjwatsonsiretart: ^- ?15:36
ubottuUbuntu bug 254201 in ffmpeg-debian "feature regression: ffmpeg lacks some video encoders (like h263+, MPEG4, maybe more...)" [Undecided,Fix released]15:36
mdzit looks like, in the absence of guidance from the TB, several codecs have been disabled15:38
sabdflcan they be split into a separate package, easily enough?15:38
mdzthey have been, see the bug15:39
mdzit's now split between main and multiverse15:39
sabdflcan we detect when a codec is needed, that is available in another package, and prompt the user?15:39
cjwatsonwe do15:39
mdzI don't know how it's currently implemented in this case15:41
cjwatsonor at any rate totem does15:41
sabdfldoes the prompt say "this functionality may be subject to a patent, your rights may vary based on your location"? then i think this is fine.15:41
mdzcjwatson: my hunch is that that doesn't cover this case15:41
cjwatsonnevertheless, some of these codecs are rather old and the more we can ship in the default install the better users' experience will be15:41
cjwatsonmdz: mine too, I see mention of things like Empathy15:41
mdztotem will install gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg, which is dependent upon libavcodec52 | libavcodec-unstripped-5215:41
cjwatsonmm, of course15:41
mdzthe latter is complete, the former not15:41
cjwatsonand it has to be that way round for a variety of reasons15:41
mdzso this is a regression15:42
sabdfli would be inclined to say, that if we have not heard from alleged rights holders for an extended period of time, and a patent is near expiration, then code can be shipped as part fo the default install15:42
mdzwe have to close this topic for now so that we can move on15:42
mdzvorian is waiting15:42
mdzcjwatson/sabdfl: can one of you take an action to write up what you just agreed?15:43
sabdfli can do that and mail the TB15:43
mdz[ACTION] sabdfl to document consensus regarding policy and process for patent concerns15:44
MootBotACTION received:  sabdfl to document consensus regarding policy and process for patent concerns15:44
mdz[TOPIC] Steve Stalcup (vorian) for ubuntu-core-dev15:44
MootBotNew Topic:  Steve Stalcup (vorian) for ubuntu-core-dev15:44
mdz[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/technical-board/2009-February/003011.html15:44
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/technical-board/2009-February/003011.html15:44
mdz[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication15:44
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup/CoreDeveloperApplication15:44
cjwatsonwe're a little late here, having dropped the ball when motu-council first notified us15:45
cjwatsonSteve reminded me about this after the last meeting so I put it on the agenda15:45
mdzsorry, better link for the first one15:45
mdz[TOPIC] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-February/002033.html15:45
MootBotNew Topic:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-February/002033.html15:45
vorianthanks cjwatson :)15:45
mdzvorian mentioned Riddell as a present sponsor15:46
mdzRiddell: are you here?15:46
RiddellI entirely advocate vorian, he's a very capable packager and extreamly useful member of the kubuntu ninjas (KDE packaging team)15:46
Riddellhe took over much of the ninjas process when apachelogger had to leave so has filled in an important gap15:47
Riddellbut it would be useful to have more of us who can upload to main so it's not reliant on me for that15:47
Riddelland vorian is a top candidate there15:47
cjwatsonvorian: you described a period of frustration while you were learning about packaging. As a core developer you would be looked to for advice by up-and-coming packagers. How would you advise them to approach getting started?15:48
voriancjwatson: I would first try and understand where their frustrations lay.  It could be one of may areas.  Then help them learn the next small steps15:49
mdzvorian: what is the current freeze status of jaunty, and what are some examples of what you should and should not upload at the present time?  how about next week?15:50
cjwatsonvorian: (what were your areas of frustration?)15:50
vorianmdz: well, we are in beta freeze at the moment. any main package upload is really not a good idea. universe bug fixes are ok as long as they have a ffe and are accepted by an archive admin15:52
sabdflvorian: "not a good idea" meaning no packages should be uploaded?15:52
mdzvorian: (feel free to finish answering cjwatson before moving on to my question)15:53
voriancjwatson: i had trouble with the jargin, once I was able to pick up the lingo - it was easy going15:53
cjwatsonmm, I agree that the Ubuntu development community is often rather too jargon-heavy15:53
sabdflvorian: which main packages would you like to work on between now and the end of next week, and how would you coordinate that?15:53
voriannot a good idea as in none15:53
voriansabdfl: KDE 4.2.2 is being released next Tuesday, so for the rest of this week and into next, I'll be working on the core stack15:54
sabdflwill those packages land in main pre-release? when, and what would be done differently given the timing?15:55
JontheEchidnaKDE 4.2.2 is actually being released exactly a week from tomorrow, coincidentally15:55
cjwatsonvorian: pretend I know nothing about libdb - can you explain to me what the difficulty is in moving applications to new libdb versions?15:55
voriancjwatson: ok15:55
cjwatsonvorian: (like mdz said above, feel free to finish answering sabdfl before moving on to my question)15:55
mdz(my question still needs more answering)15:56
voriansabdfl: we will be needint lots of pre-uploading quality checking given the freeze15:56
* nixternal notes to cjwatson everyong pretends they know nothing about libdb :)15:56
vorianmdz: sorry,15:57
mdzvorian: no worries, we threw a lot of questions at you at once15:57
mdzwe should be more organized15:57
mdzor perhaps, we're doing a good job at simulating the real-world chaos of ubuntu development ;-)15:57
vorianmdz: after beta is released, all packages will need freeze exceptions - and archive admin approval - after a thoruough job of qa and testing is done15:57
vorianmdz: true :)15:58
cjwatsonnixternal: wouldn't be much of a test if I didn't know the answer ;-)15:59
voriancjwatson: as for libdb, pretend each version is called something else (ie, 4.2 == apple, 4.3 == orange, 4.4 == pear, etc..)15:59
mdzvorian: you said that during beta freeze, uploads to main were not a good idea.  however, you can see on jaunty-changes that uploads are still happening16:00
vorianthere are a set of packages that depend on "apple" and we are trying to get rid of "apple" so we see if they will build and function with "pear"16:00
cjwatsonhey, that's not a bad analogy. What do applications have to do when transitioning from one to another?16:00
mdzvorian: mvo uploaded update-manager just today.  did he make an error?16:00
cjwatsone.g. source changes, dependency changes, making sure database contents are preserved accurately, etc.16:00
vorianmdz: I understand that during the beta freeze, there is testing done and bugs related to the release are still uploaded.16:01
vorianas for ISO's and upgrades16:01
mdzvorian: bugs related to the beta release?  or to the 9.04 release?16:01
* vorian is not 100% sure16:02
mdzvorian: where would you go to find either of those lists of bugs?16:03
mdz(you can finish answering cjwatson first)16:04
voriani would go to qa.ubuntu.com16:04
mdzwe're over time but I would like to finish here rather than carry over to the next meeting16:04
mdzKeybuk: any questions for vorian?16:04
cjwatsonI don't see any relevant links on qa.ubuntu.com ...16:05
Keybukmdz: none from me, you both covered the basics16:05
cjwatsonaside from the one to Launchpad16:05
mdzno, I don't think that the release bug list is available there (though maybe it should be)16:05
mdzcjwatson: heh, you mean href=http://launchpad.net/ ? :-)16:05
mdzthat is not a very useful link16:05
voriani don't know that link, however i find the list of bugs next to each iso test useful at times16:06
cjwatsonah, yes, that is a useful resource16:06
cjwatson(I'm still waiting for an answer to my libdb transitioning question, fwiw)16:07
vorianah, sorry16:07
vorianApplications must not have any regressions when moving from one depends or build-depends16:08
vorianso, firstly it must build correctly, all files being built and installed correctly in the binaries16:09
vorianthen it must install correctly on ones system16:09
cjwatsonsorry, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I should clarify that I'm specifically asking about what changes need to be made, not how those changes should be tested16:09
vorianand must behave *just* as it always has (given it isn't riddled with bugs)16:09
mdzwe're well over time16:12
cjwatsonI don't feel that my question has been answered16:12
vorianwith libdb, it was a matter of changing the version in control16:12
cjwatsonah, typing lag16:12
mdzvorian: I think cjwatson is looking for a more specific answer16:12
mdz(note: sabdfl had to leave to make another meeting)16:13
mdzand I will need to do the same shortly16:13
cjwatsonthere are some applications that need more than simply being recompiled against the new version of libdb, for instance16:13
voriancjwatson: about the specific changes to the package?  I changed the applicable versions in the debian/changelog.  No source changes were needed with many.  If there were, I tried to get it done upstream, as opposed to patching them16:13
voriancjwatson: is that more what you are looking for?16:14
cjwatsonwell, not really, I was looking for the sorts of changes that would actually need to be made to the code, and how you would recognise when this needs to be done16:15
mdzsorry, folks, but we need to wrap this up16:15
cjwatsonbut I realise that we're over time16:15
mdzcjwatson,Keybuk: how would you like to proceed?16:16
cjwatsonshall we go to a vote?16:16
mdzvorian: I'm not very confident that we can approve your application based on the Q&A so far16:17
cjwatsonmy vote was going to be 0: I've not really been very satisfied with the answers to the questions I asked; on the other hand my belief is that vorian is conscientious and will ask when he's out of his depth, and it's clear that he knows what he's doing with Kubuntu and will be a valuable contributor there16:18
vorianI'm done then16:18
* nixternal head desks16:18
mdznixternal: will you talk to him once he calms down?16:19
cjwatsonblink, and I was going to suggest things that could be improved16:19
nixternalmdz: sure thing16:19
nixternalI will give him a call later this afternoon16:20
mdznixternal: please let him know that we would like to help him complete the process in time16:20
cjwatson(FWIW, the answer to the question I was pressing on is on [[https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#Get rid of old libdb versions]], so I don't feel it was unfair)16:20
mdz(sorry, was having a side conversation with nixternal)16:21
nixternalhehe, ya just saw that and responded :)16:21
mdzwe need to wrap up, we'll carry over the remaining agenda item to next week16:22
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:22.16:22
nixternalthanks guys and I am sorry that he just left like that, I will chat with him a little later16:22
cjwatsonthat was disappointing; I hope he calms down16:22
nixternalya, I have never seen him emotional/upset like that in 2+ years16:22
nixternaland in person16:22
mdzthese things happen, we'll work it out16:23
cjwatsonI got the impression he froze up a bit under pressure of questions16:23
cjwatsonso perhaps we should consider a different format16:23
nixternalhehe, I referred to it as a "Feeding Frenzy"16:23
cjwatsonsince pressure of questions is not really the best model for Ubuntu development16:23
cjwatson(at least not with a time limit measured in minutes)16:23
davmor2cjwatson: maybe a mentor for a month16:24
mdzI've long felt that the format for this is not really ideal16:24
mdzthe alternative, I think, is something much more structured and heavyweight like NM16:25
nixternalI always liked teh NM way16:25
=== maco_ is now known as maco
=== fader is now known as fader|lunch
pgranerAbout time to start the weekly kernel IRC meeting...16:59
* manjo waves16:59
* cking is here16:59
* ikepanhc waves17:00
* lieb is here17:00
* maco is watching17:00
* smb_tp hastly arrives17:00
* sconklin -17:00
MootBotMeeting started at 12:00. The chair is pgraner.17:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:00
pgraner[TOPIC] Open Action Items17:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Open Action Items17:00
pgranerawe to report back to kernel-team on LPIA testing status17:02
pgranerawe: Any update?17:02
* apw is here17:02
awepgraner: i've built the latest lpia kernel and tested on the hp mini17:02
awepgraner: looks good.  i'm about to send an email to the team to try and get more coverage across other netbooks17:02
pgranerawe: great... thanks, pls email kernel-team and give us the thumbs up when complete17:02
pgraner[ACTION] awe to inform kernel-team when LPIA kernel testing is complete17:03
MootBotACTION received:  awe to inform kernel-team when LPIA kernel testing is complete17:03
awepgraner: ok, will send an update to the mailing list in time for next week's mtg17:03
pgraner* apw to inform ogasawara when revised CFT can go out17:03
pgranerapw: you good to go?17:03
ogasawarapgraner: apw and I agreed there was no added benefit for another CFT since the script isn't integrated into checkbox, only packaged with it.  we end up manually running the same script anyways.17:03
apwwe have done some testing with the installed version and it seems to be identicle (as it should be)17:03
pgranerogasawara, apw: sounds reasonable17:04
pgraner* smb to send manjo bug on Dell server hw issue on Hardy17:04
pgraner* ogasawara to issue CFT around ext4 data loss patches17:05
manjowaiting on hardware to become available17:05
ogasawarapgraner: that one missed my todo list last week.  although comments from the bug indicate the patches fix the issue.17:05
pgranerogasawara: I'd highlight it when Beta goes live, this way we can get some extra eyes on it17:06
ogasawarapgraner: sounds good.  I'll make sure it gets noted17:06
pgranerThere are a few outstanding actions on the list but they will get resolved at the Kernel Sprint next week. So I will drop them from the IRC meeting agenda17:06
pgranerThere is only one that needs to be brought up here:17:07
pgranersconklin create wiki page showing lpia source structure and repos for various releases17:07
pgranersconklin: ETA on that?17:07
sconklinpgraner: after Lex sprint17:07
pgranersconklin: ok, do you want me to keep it on the agenda?17:08
sconklinpgraner: no need to, I think17:08
pgranersconklin: ack17:08
pgranerMoving on then...17:08
pgraner[TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels17:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels17:08
smb_tpThis week not much. I am still mostly stuck with CVE and Hardy proposed is stuck in the accept queue with some hope to be released tomorrow.17:08
pgranersmb_tp: ok.. when do you expect the Intrepid updates to slow down17:09
sconklinsmb_tp: I still don't know what wil/should get pulled into the hardy branch from that17:09
apwsounds like something to discuss at sprint17:10
smb_tppgraner, Ours? We are actually down to just fixing the regression bugs17:10
smb_tpSo it is slowed down17:10
smb_tpsconklin, From what?17:10
sconklinhardy security updates17:10
pgranersmb_tp: 2.6.27-14.30, was very hefty17:10
smb_tpI would would have to have a look, but I think that was the last one which included stable releases from upstream17:11
smb_tpNo actually that were not that many new ones17:12
pgranersmb_tp: ok, we need to revisit the stable updates frequency at the sprint17:12
smb_tppgraner, 6 including a revert17:13
apwsmb_tp, yes it was the one wich included 27.18 stable update amongst others17:13
smb_tppgraner, What you probably see is the changlog currently including all updates since the last release to updates17:13
pgranersmb_tp: Ok, then I'm reading the change log wrong it looks to be about 25+ changes17:13
pgranersmb_tp: Thats broke then17:14
smb_tppgraner, Not broke but as done for stable updates17:14
pgranersmb_tp: we should be able to see exactly what went in to the upload clearly17:14
smb_tpWe are aksed to include the full history up to the last point the kernel was released to updates17:15
cjwatsonpgraner: what are you using to look at the changelog?17:15
pgranersmb_tp: thats fine however we should be able to see whats in each rev17:15
smb_tpYou should see that. But maybe its simple to miss the start of the previous uploads17:15
pgranersmb_tp: ok we'll take it offline17:15
pgraner[TOPIC] Jaunty Status17:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Jaunty Status17:15
smb_tppgraner, ack17:15
pgranerrtg: how do we look?17:15
rtgpgraner: the only serious issue that I'm aware of is a degraded raid boot problem.17:16
rtgapw, anything else that you can think of?17:16
* apw scans the list17:17
rtgit looks the ARM AA issue was solved17:17
apwnothing i can think of right now17:17
pgranerrtg: how is kerneloops & crashdump looking?17:17
rtgI'm looking at kexec-tools on 32 bit.17:17
apwthere is some new stuff coming in about the CRDA stuff, but only affecting people who used the old options17:17
rtg64 bit still appears to work.17:17
apwso not very serious17:17
pgranerapw: ack17:18
rtgso, no show stoppers.17:18
apwthe degraded raid problem has just resurfaced having looked fixed17:18
pgranerrtg: how is kerneloops? working as advertised?17:18
* apw notes it is not installed on his machine, which is at the latest jaunty17:19
rtgpgraner: dunno, I though someone in the foundation team took that on?17:19
manjopgraner, I did some testing last fri17:19
pgranerrtg: for Karmic, we still have it for this release17:19
pgranermanjo: working?17:19
manjoand I sent you a mail with the test results last fri17:19
manjoyes working as advertised17:20
pgranermanjo: ok, I'm still on Thurs. mail17:20
manjoexcept for the fact that with broken17:20
apwmanjo, did you have to opt in to get it, ie install it manually?17:20
manjosynaptic mouse you will get17:20
manjofalse positives17:20
apwmanjo, that is fixed in the next kernel upload which removes the warning17:20
manjoapw, yes17:20
pgranermanjo: ok, I'm assuming there is a bug filed on that?17:20
manjopgraner, ^^17:20
pgranermanjo: ack17:20
apwso we should be good for beta17:20
apwmanjo, did your testing incldue whether it uploaded to the real kerneloops web site?17:21
manjono I used the script from lieb to use local17:21
manjobut I think the 1st couple of attempts I made were with kerneloops.org17:22
apwmight be nice to get a test to the real site done (but we can discuss offline)17:22
pgranermanjo: we should ping Arjan and ask him how we can test the actual submission17:22
manjopgraner, ack17:22
pgraner[ACTION] manjo to ping Arjan on kerneloops submission testing17:23
MootBotACTION received:  manjo to ping Arjan on kerneloops submission testing17:23
pgranerapw: How are we doing on Suspend/Resume, both bug triage and bug repair?17:23
apwWe have put together a basic Trigage and Debugging guide for suspend/resume17:23
apwand hibernate/resume, so we can simply point apport bug reports at17:23
apwa simple wiki page.  This should allow quicker triaging at our end:17:23
apw  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspendHibernateResume17:23
apwi have pushed the button on a number of the bugs, and i believe manjo has been helping out too17:23
apwwill take a few days to get through the backlog.  then we can review the progress17:23
manjoyes I am looking at a list of 75 odd bugs apw pointed me to17:24
ogasawaraapw:  I'll help sorting through those17:24
apwogasawara, that would be cool.  i have a one liner i paste in to start them on the path17:24
manjoapw, most of the bugs are opened as kerneloops but I can see no oops msg in the logs17:25
apw"Could you please follow the triage and debugging guide (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspendHibernateResume) and report back here."17:25
apwmanjo, yes they have that tag, but they are a separate class17:25
apwwe do need to do some more work on the tags to help us tell them appart17:25
apwpgraner, could you action me to talk to pitti on the direction there17:26
pgraner[ACTION] apw to talk to pitti about tags in apport17:26
MootBotACTION received:  apw to talk to pitti about tags in apport17:26
pgranerOk, moving on17:27
pgraner[TOPIC] ARM17:27
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM17:27
pgraneramitk, bradF: hows things?17:27
bradFpgraner: looks like the AA issue just turned out to be a config dependency issue17:28
bradFpgraner: will submit a patch shortly17:28
cooloneypgraner, right, i can confirm that17:28
pgranerbradF: are we turning it on post beta or just running with out it for the release?17:29
amitkwith that patch, the babbage kernel should be good *with* AA support17:29
rtgpgraner: post beta17:29
pgranerAny other ARMism we should know about?17:29
amitkalso two flavours have been ripped out, so we now ship with 4 flavours17:30
amitkthis should be in the beta kernel17:30
pgraner4? I thought it should be 3?17:30
rtgamitk: we're native on Babbage now, right?17:30
amitkiop32x, versatile, ixp4xx and imx5117:30
amitkrtg: yes we are17:30
pgraneramitk: whats the iop32x? Do we have hw?17:31
amitkyes, thecus17:31
amitkthere are a few in the company17:31
cooloneypgraner, lool has the iop32x hardware17:31
amitkand it is fixed and works17:31
pgraneramitk: when I asked the mobile team yesterday they did not raise it as being dropped17:31
pgraneramitk: ok, I don't want to get into a support issue for hw thats not on the roadmap17:32
amitkpgraner: not sure about your chat with mobile team17:33
amitkbut iop32x was not on the chopping block yesterday17:33
pgraneramitk: when dropping the other flavors I listed 3 flavors to them (davidm) and there was no objection17:33
rtgiop32x being one of them?17:34
bradFpgraner: which 3 did you talk about?17:34
cooloneypgraner, amitk i guess iop32x is for next release karmic17:34
pgranerrtg: yes I asked you about it yesterday, and you said you were going to talk to amitk17:34
cooloneylool said to me they thought iop32x might be dropped for karmic17:34
amitkpgraner: seems to be a miscommunication. I don't seem to have recommended iop32x on the chopping block since I knew we had some HW and it worked17:34
cooloneynot jaunty17:34
pgranerIt is what it is for beta. We'll take it up in person next week.17:35
cooloneyamitk, right17:35
amitknot much else here17:35
pgraner[TOPIC] LPIA17:36
MootBotNew Topic:  LPIA17:36
pgranersconklin: what say you?17:36
sconklinI resynced from the netbook trees again, everything else is scheduled for the sprint17:36
pgranersconklin: ack17:36
pgraner[TOPIC] Incoming Bugs17:37
MootBotNew Topic:  Incoming Bugs17:37
pgranerogasawara: ^^^^^^^^^^ you're up.17:37
ogasawarapgraner: 4 bugs to note . . .17:37
ogasawarabug 337929 - reporter notes this affects jaunty as well as intrepid-proposed17:37
ogasawarabug 346691 - points to possible git commit causing the issue17:37
ogasawarabug 29970817:37
ogasawarabug 34481217:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 337929 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.28 "ieee80211_regdom=EU now causes oops after latest update" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/33792917:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 346691 in linux "jaunty kernel 2.6.28-11 kernel destroy system" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/34669117:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 299708 in dell-mini "Update linux kernel to in dell-mini" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29970817:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 344812 in linux "general protection fault in i915_gem_leavevt_ioctl" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/34481217:37
ogasawarathe first two appear to be regressions17:37
rtgdestroy system seems kind of harsh.17:37
* amitk likes the title of bug 346691 :-)17:38
apwogasawara, i have the first one, looks like its an interaction between CRDA settings in the kernel and l-b-m17:38
rtgapw: it shouldn't cause an oops, though17:38
apwright, clearly a bug17:38
apwon the i915 thing, there is a lot of instability all over the map17:39
apwin i915 users right now, looking like its appeared since 2.6.28-817:39
rtgapw: stable updates has a bunch of i915 stuff17:39
apwthats all in 2.6.28-11 though right?17:39
rtgno, its on deck17:40
rtgwaiting until after Beta is released17:40
apwahh so in our tree but not released?17:40
ogasawaraI'll post a comment to that bug then to retest after Beta17:40
apwok, excellent, as one of those affected, i'll go make a kernel from our tip for "us" to test17:41
manjoapw, I saw some i915 erros in the netbooks17:41
rtgogasawara: the dell mini bug is kind of bogus.17:41
apwso i'll get you a copy of the kernel too17:41
ogasawarartg: is it getting the security updates?17:42
rtgits an OEM team update issue. don't they supply the kernel?17:42
pgranerrtg: depends on if they are running stock ubuntu or not17:42
apwi believe it may become our problem once we take over the netbook trees17:43
pgranerapw: wrong it will be sconklin's prob :-D17:43
rtgin the meantime I vote we stick awe with it.17:43
* apw was being nice to sconklin 17:43
pgranerogasawara: anything else?17:44
sconklinapw: why should you be?17:44
ogasawarapgraner: nope, that's it17:44
pgraner[TOPIC] Open Discussion17:44
MootBotNew Topic:  Open Discussion17:44
pgranerFloor is open17:44
apwrtg althogugh there were drm updated in 28.9, actually they were all already applied and there is zero drm delta from what i have installed to the top of our jaunty tree17:45
rtgkarmic is updated to 2.6.29, but doesn't compile yet.17:45
rtgapw: yeah, I did cherry-pick some stuff17:45
apwi presume karmic will stablise for a bit now .29 has hit the shelves17:46
pgranerrtg: we will need to back usbstorage out of the monolithic kernel and make it a module17:46
rtgpgraner: you'll have to convince me why thats a good idea.17:46
pgranerrtg: its causing issues with some 3g cards and the only way to give it module params17:46
pgranerrtg: is to give it on the grub command line17:47
apwcan you not supply those params on the kernel command line via grub?17:47
rtgmaybe we should fix the 3G drivers17:47
pgranerapw: yea but it breaks the hal set up as it tries to pass params as part of the loading17:47
pgranerrtg: there is no 3g driver usbserial is it17:47
pgranerrtg: in the cases that are broke17:48
pgranerrtg: the option driver drives 80% of the cards the others are with usbserial17:48
rtgI _really_ like having USB built in, it solves so many other issues.17:48
pgranerrtg: not USB, just usbserial17:48
cooloneypgraner, making usbstorage as a module is ok for imx51 babbage board?17:48
rtgum, you wanted usbserial for console debug, you're willing to lose that?17:49
apwhrm, that was the one which was essential built in for early usb serial console17:49
cooloneysometimes, we needs to boot up with rootfs on usb disk17:49
amitkcooloney: no problem for imx51, we will have initramfs17:49
pgranerrtg: we're gonna have to or regress users, and work them around with a crappy grub commandline17:49
cooloneyamitk, ok, i see17:49
rtgpgraner: but you'er only talking about usbserial, right?17:50
pgranerrtg: we can build custom debug kernels with usbserial17:50
pgranerrtg: yes17:50
rtgpgraner: ok, I'm fine with that.17:50
cking..we don't use usbserial that much do we?17:50
pgranerrtg: I'll send you the bug number17:50
cking..for debug that is17:50
amitkcking: it is a debug method of last resort17:50
rtgwhen pgraner said usbstorage I though there  was some crack involved.17:50
cooloneycking, i use usbserial to talk my babbage borad17:51
* cking has used to for kernel debug too17:51
pgranerrtg: sorry that was a typo17:51
rtgcooloney: you can also build your own kernels17:51
rtgpgraner: have you files a bug?17:51
cooloneyrtg, do you mean kernel for babbage?17:51
pgranerrtg: yep17:51
rtgpgraner: stick me on it?17:51
cooloneyi can build it with cross compiler17:52
pgranerrtg: I'll dig it up and send it to you17:52
rtgpgraner: just assign it too me.17:52
pgranerrtg: ack17:52
pgraner[ACTION] pgraner to assign usbserial bug to rtg17:52
MootBotACTION received:  pgraner to assign usbserial bug to rtg17:52
pgranerAnything else in open discussion17:52
rtgcooloney: I meant that ,in general, you can build your own kernels with special debug features such as usbserial17:53
cooloneyrtg, yeah, i can do that17:53
apwnothing here17:53
liebor here17:53
pgraner[TOPIC] Next Meeting17:53
MootBotNew Topic:  Next Meeting17:54
cooloneyrtg no17:54
cooloneyi dont touch usbserial things in kernel17:54
pgranerSince we are all at the sprint I propose that we cancel the meeting for next week and resume on 7 Apr.17:54
cooloneyjust usb usbserial in my pc not babbage board17:54
rtgespecially since most of us will be traveling on Tues17:54
pgranerOk next meeting on 7 Apr.17:55
pgranerThanks everyone...17:55
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:55.17:55
manjopgraner, thanks17:55
=== fader|lunch is now known as fader
apwpgraner, you sent me a link to the irc log for last weeks meeting where was that18:07
pgranerapw: once sec18:10
=== keffie_jayx is now known as effie_jayx
=== Andre_Gondim is now known as Andre_Gondim-afk
=== bittin__ is now known as bittin`
=== bazhang_ is now known as bazhnag
=== bazhnag is now known as bazhang
=== PriceChild is now known as pricey
=== pricey is now known as Pricey
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
=== PriceChild is now known as Pricey

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!