ScottLailo, the ubuntustudio-dev group is restricted to those familiar with code, otherwise some fairly dramatic, although unintentional, issues might result :P00:56
ailoScottL: No problem. Just trying to figure out how things are connected. Who does what, what needs to be done. Is there a wishlist. That sort of thing.01:02
ScottLailo, i'm glad you feel that way :)01:14
ScottLas far as a wishlist, this would be the closest thing, i think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning01:14
ScottLto be honest, it seems that most people are not involved consistently enough to do it collaboratively, so i keep a running list of things i would like to accomplish01:15
ScottLi wish it were otherwise01:15
holsteinScottL: maybe we could get a few of use commited01:15
holsteinand do something more formal01:16
holsteinailo and i were talking about a wiki page01:16
holsteinwith tasks01:16
ScottLholstein, that would be awesome01:16
holsteinand we assign ourselves01:16
ScottLwe used to have something similar, hold one01:16
holsteini was talking about maybe we could get something like that going on by february01:16
ailoAt least it would be great if all participants, even tester can check what needs testing, what needs solving and so on.01:17
ScottLyes it would :)01:17
ScottLi had thought about making a task-list page, one that would be continually updated for each release instead of a new one for each release01:18
ScottLbut it doesn't have to be that way, whatever people want and whatever works01:18
holsteinScottL: whatever you think is more convinient01:19
ailoWe could start by just one for Natty, and if it works to keep the same for later releases, just keep it.01:19
holsteini like it 01:20
ailoI'm a little concerned with some out of date pages here and there, on launchpad, and maybe on the wiki too01:21
ailoWhen people look for info, it can get a little confusing01:21
holsteinailo: sounds like a good item for that wiki we're proposing01:23
holsteinmaybe just a search and locate the pages project01:24
holsteinthats something i could chew through01:24
ailoI think there should be a link to a development, open to anyone on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/, that doesn't need to conflict with the dev teams work. 01:25
ScottLupdating the out-of-date pages, or deprecating them, would be a good task :)01:25
ailoThat would be a good starting point to collect links to other pages too01:26
ScottLailo, the general feeling is that all pages on wiki.ubuntu.com should be for developing ubuntu studio and help.ubuntu.com should be for using ubuntu studio01:26
ScottLthat's just a large and generalized overview of the documentation scheme01:27
holsteinthats news to me01:27
holsteinmakes sense though01:27
ScottLthere is some cross pollination between the two, but i think it would be helpful going forward to try to adhere to that convention01:27
ailoWe need some standard items to work on as well, I think, but perhaps this could be outlined in a meeting later on. I'm thinking we need a list of things to test, and that sort of thing.01:29
holsteini like the idea here01:30
ScottLsome of the things to test would be based on the work flows beings developed, but also there are other, more system-level things as well01:30
holsteina non-dev development wiki page01:30
holsteinsometing i can just reference real quick01:30
holsteindrop links to wiki pages in01:30
holsteinping you guys to look at them01:30
holsteinthings that i think need to be tested01:30
holsteinOR that i need confirmed01:30
ailoIt's generally the oversight I feel is missing, that probably the dev guys have, but it's not communicating.01:31
holsteini think the more we do though01:32
holsteinto be organized01:32
holsteinthe better01:32
ailoI agree01:32
holsteinif we have links to present with black and white print of what we need01:32
holsteindrop that in #moto or whatever01:32
ScottLi had tried to get a few guys to form a testing group to develop some of these tests01:33
ScottLjust oversight stuff like: does jack start, does ardour start, does gimp start, etc01:33
holsteinits challenging01:33
holsteinwith JACK01:33
ScottLmaking some simple recordings, use a synth to make noise (or music)01:34
holsteinthat can be SO hardware dependant01:34
ailoIs UbuntuStudio-controls still outdated?01:34
holsteinmy firewire interface wont start with JACK in 10.1001:34
holsteinbut that doesnt make JACK broken01:34
ailoI'd say these are issues to put in the wiki01:34
holsteinand im just getting to where i think i could trouble-shoot and get to the bottom of some of that01:35
ailoI think many users are accustomed to doing fixes themselves on a lot of releases. They won't do a bug report even.01:40
holsteinbug reports are still challening for me01:40
holsteinand its a lot of work too01:40
holsteincan be01:41
ScottLailo, yes, ubuntustudio-controls is outdated01:41
holsteinand, like my issue01:41
holsteinis that a bug?01:41
holsteinJACK works01:41
ScottLi can't find anybody with python experience who is willing to work on it01:41
holsteinjust not with my firewire interface01:41
ailoScottL: I know a little python.01:41
holsteini filed a bug report though01:41
ScottLholstein, i don't think it's that big of deal to test jack, we need someone with pci card and another with firewire to test it using their normal setup01:42
ailoI'm guessing it's basically just a script, but it needs su permission to edit files.01:42
ScottLthey should be familiar enough with their hardware to understand what it should take to get it started, if it doesn't start then there is a problem01:42
ScottLailo, yes, basically, but there is other stuff01:42
holsteinsure, but how do we get it fixed ?01:42
ScottLlike checking to see if the limits.conf file (or whatever) already has rtprio, et al, already there and change that line instead of adding a new one01:43
holsteini dont think its OK to ship it out of the box with what would be needed01:43
holsteinOR that was the excuse i heard that made sense01:43
holsteinand, how much of a priority should firewire devices be?01:44
ailoScottL: jack is using a different file for that now. It's in /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf01:44
ScottLholstein, in a general sense, if testing results in a problem, then report it in a bug or to the -dev team, and we work on a fix before release01:44
holsteinit doesnt say anywhere on the site 'firewire support out of the box'01:44
ScottLholstein, but i understand your point about firewire devices01:44
holsteinive seen the bugs for that though01:44
ScottLand i concede the point01:44
holsteinsince hardy and before01:45
ailoUbuntustudio control should not be needed anymore, unless one wants to toggle rt01:45
holsteinand when i have made noise, i heard a security concern, which i understand01:45
ScottLi would like to perhaps have a ubuntu studio-dev ppa with a -rt kernel in it and have a package that updates the sources.list to include that ppa01:45
holsteinScottL: i like that01:45
ScottLailo, i think it also enable the raw1394 for video/firewire01:45
ailoScottL: right, but that has changed too now.01:46
ailoBecause of the new firewire stack01:46
ScottLholstein, let's be honest, laptops and firewire cards are probably half (if not more) of the users now and probably will continue to be a substantial percentage for the future01:46
holsteinyeah, might need to search aroudn and find all the changes01:46
holsteinget them on that wiki too01:46
holsteinso we know what is what01:46
ScottLailo, oh, i didn't know that01:46
holsteinScottL: i think its a good idea for it to be a priority IF the focus is going to be pro-audio out of the box01:47
ailoI put the question to Asmo on the -dev mail list if he got firewire working out of the box on Natty. On Maverick it won't.01:47
ailoInstalling jackd already takes care of rt01:48
holsteinScottL ailo , i think this has been a productive meeting so far :)01:48
ailoScottL: I think it has been proved that there is a gap between user and dev in this case. Testing is a way to redeem that. I think Abogani put it out there first, and that has made a few of us users to get involved.01:51
ailoWe don't need to be so many, but we need all kinds01:52
ailoTo do testing01:52
ailoAnd we need to be able to see the results, and then act on them01:52
ScottLailo, "installing jack takes care of rt"...i think yes and no, it installs a preset in the audio.conf file but what if someone wants to change the memlock from unlimited?01:54
ScottLholstein, i agree, this has been productive :)01:54
ScottLailo, very true, we had considered developing a matrix of what types of test and testers we would like (e.g. start jackd using pci card, start jackd using firewire, etc)01:55
ailoUbuntustudio-control is a way for a normal user to get access to rt control, without having to know how it works. I think jackd's default settings already take are of that. For a new user, they don't even know what rt is.01:57
ailoI think abstracting things is a big discussion. On Linux we like to be able to do what we want01:58
ailoGui-tools do not always let you do that, but if this one has legitimity, why not?01:58
ailoScottL: Anyway, I like "e.g. start jackd using pci card, start jackd...". We need that.02:00
ailoScottL: I'll have a look at Ubuntustudio controls. I have knowledge enough to adjust it. The base code is already there. One only needs to tweak it. If needed I can do something with it. Otherwise, I would take it off the repo.02:02
ScottLailo, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May1602:11
ScottLabout 1/2 down the first screen it mentions ubuntustudio-controls update02:12
ScottLailo, i don't know that we have considered all the uses for -controls02:14
ailoScottL: Ok, so there are some big plans for that app, then :)02:14
ailoSort of like a US wizard02:14
ScottLnot necessarily, just floating ideas, but no one seemed to really get into it02:14
ScottLbut you are right, if nothing is going to be done with it (e.g. fix it or improve it), then it should be removed02:15
holstein+1 on remove02:16
ScottLholstein had mentioned included the -rt kernel on the disc like another distro had done along with instructions how to install it02:16
ScottLthis might be translated into something in -controls for the -rt kernel ppa02:16
ScottLfor an example02:16
holsteinwell, thats true02:17
holsteinand a good ide02:17
ailoI'm interested in that.02:17
ailoI like the idea of some sort of wizard, that would help new users to get comfortable fast.02:18
ScottLstochastic made another suggestion that i had toyed with before: giving new users links to help via shortcuts on the desktop02:18
ScottLi would even like to include a 'release notes' also on the disc that installs and is in the menu02:18
* ScottL stole that from debian lxde02:18
holsteini like all of this02:19
holsteini feel like, if you're using ubuntustudio, and dont get on the irc02:19
holsteinyou're just screwed02:19
holsteinOR i was02:20
ScottLwhen i have built a machine for friends and installed ubuntu studio i do a few things for them02:20
holsteini used to fire up rosegarden and wonder why it wasnt doing anything02:20
holsteinor wonder what those JACK errors were when i would click on something02:20
ScottLi add firefox icons on the desktop for help.ubuntu.com, ubuntu forums, wiki.ubuntu.com, a video i made for starting and using jack, ardour, rakarrack02:20
ailoWell, we could decide on a deadline when it needs to be finished. I can take it on. I'm sure there lot's of people interested in participating.02:20
ScottLand setup xchat to get into #ubuntustudio on IRC02:20
holsteinScottL: NICE02:21
holsteininstead of #ubuntu02:21
ScottLi would love to include instruction videos (or links to them) on the disc02:21
holsteinScottL: we have missed natty right?02:21
holsteinnatty is in freeze for us too right?02:21
ScottLbut all these ideas get put on the backburner because i'm struggling to things straight just for releases02:21
holsteinor does that include us too?02:22
ScottLholstein, no, it shouldn't be yet i don't think02:22
ScottLrelease freeze is at the end of february, i think that would be what we need to worry about02:22
ScottLBUT, if we are making new packages, then yes we would have troubles, REVU doesn't move fast :(02:23
ScottLwe should probably organize it all and truly understand what we want to incorporate02:23
ScottLthen make a simple package for just one part of what we want done02:23
ScottLonce it's in the repos, then updating it to include other aspects is much, much easier02:24
ailoWell, I'm still waiting to hear whether firewire does work out of the box. If it does, US-controls won't be needed anyway, and we can let that one wait until the next release.02:24
holsteini dont think we need to make new packages02:24
holsteinfor now02:24
holsteinfor natty02:24
holsteinsome of these little changes would be great though02:24
holsteinand a menu item or 202:25
ScottLthere were still things that i had planned for natty:  updating menu, new artwork, new plymouth theme02:25
holsteinScottL: did you see that email from falk?02:25
holsteinabout his menu?02:25
holsteini liked that too02:25
ScottLyes holstein, but there are things going on in debian that might preclude our efforts02:25
ScottLthey are considering the same thing, but not in the hackneyed way we are currently doing it02:26
ailoAbout plymouth, what's the problem other than that it is not syncing with boot (so fast these days)02:26
ScottLthey want to create new categories and including these categories in the desktop file02:26
ScottLthis way it's all automatic and according to convention02:26
ailoCategorizing is hard to do on a general level02:27
holsteinScottL: i like that to02:27
holsteinwhats the ETA on that?02:27
ScottLailo, well, the graphics are crappy :-)  i can say that becuase i did them (plymouth)02:27
ScottLseriously, i realized that we were switching, nobody had a plymouth theme, so i spent a frantic weekend learning plymouth, and made that theme02:28
holsteini dont think i have the US plymouth theme02:28
ailoWow, nice work. It impressed my friends, when I showed them US.02:28
holsteinmaybe i broke it02:28
ScottLcory's new plymouth theme (that needs some tweaks):  http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/images/new-plymouth-theme.png02:29
ScottLignore the fact that the circle-like thing is to the left of the coF02:29
ailoThe plymouth theme doesn't really have any reason to exist in the future, I think, since boots are so fast. Better to use a simple image.02:29
ScottLif should be over the CoF and spinning in a circle02:29
holsteinyeah, saw that, and i liked it02:29
ScottLi would also like to remove the progress bar because of what ailo said02:30
ailoslick is the word02:30
* ScottL is going to take a shower02:31
holsteinScottL: laterx02:31
holsteinailo: i like where this is going02:31
ailoholstein: me too. 02:32
ScottLailo, and holstein, agreed, this is asesome progress, i'm very glad that both of you are here :)03:02
ScottLi'll try to add these ideas to the release planning page for natty+103:04
ScottLjust to get them down on "paper"03:04
* abogani waves09:10
aboganiWhich will be the default music player in Natty? banshee?09:10
ailoabogani: I heard it would be, but so far not..09:13
ailoThough, rythmbox has ben removed from the volume indicator menu09:14
aboganiailo: Thanks!09:15
jussiScottL: ping me when you are around - Id like to pass the ML's completely over to you 10:50
scott-workjussi: is this something that needs to be done while i am at work?13:49
scott-worksupercollider may be hitting debian soon :)14:00
scott-worklooks like a patch went from debian multimedia upstream and it is being incorporated into the their upcoming release14:01
holsteinscott-work: ScottL if you get a minute, feel free to mark that new bug i filed 'wishlist' as well17:55
ubottuUbuntu bug 697774 in Ubuntu Studio "cant install ubuntustudio from USB stick" [Undecided,New]17:55
holsteini'll go ahead and assigne myself17:55
falktxhehe, holstein, that will only work if US was a live-cd/dvd17:55
holsteinfalktx: i already filed that bug :)17:56
holsteinand marked it wishlist17:56
holsteinjust trying to make some official documentation17:56
holsteini need to get that added to the install wiki at some point17:56
falktxi promised a live-dvd of US, and I'll make it17:57
falktxjust need time...17:57
holsteini saw that i missed i question about that in #ubuntustudio17:57
holstein"cant get unetbootin to work with ubuntustudio iso17:58
holsteinresonable mistake17:58
holsteinif you're new to the alternate installers17:58
holsteinalright, for realz.. BBL18:01
holsteindone with lunch18:01
=== falktx is now known as falkTX
scott-workholstein: in your bug you link to a flash drive install page and say that it _should_ work,  are you saying that you tried it with ubuntu studio and it doesn't work?19:11
holsteinscott-work: OH22:06
holsteingood point22:06
holsteinlet me go and fix that22:06
holsteinthat is a work-around that i actually havent tried22:06
holsteinBUT i have been told several times that it worked with 10.0422:06
holsteinhasnt come up since than22:07
scott-workholstein: sorry, i wasn't meaning to be a syntax nazi ;)  i meant more of does it work?22:08
holsteinscott-work: no, totally22:09
holsteinits not clear22:09
holsteini did it really quick before lunch22:09

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