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bhaskarhi everyone08:09
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fagandamn sorry :)14:00
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teelepelMark in 30?14:32
teelepeldidnt know about ubuntu classroom till the tweet came from castrojo14:33
faganyou guys will be muted when the session starts go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat to talk14:36
fagan(and ask questions since thats the great thing about open week)14:36
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andybleadenhi from the uk14:42
fcuk112i'm from uk too14:42
faganfcuk112, andybleaden hey this channel gets muted when the session starts so if you move over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can talk there and ask questions14:43
andybleadenwill do14:43
JarigeI heard Mark will be answering questions here, will that remain here or in the other room?14:44
andybleadenI was just testing this was working as I am at work behind huge firewall14:44
andybleadenJarige Here14:44
Jarigenever actually used IRC much, using it with Empathy right now14:45
Jarigestill figuring out stuff14:45
Milos_SDanswers will be here, but we ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, right?14:45
faganMilos_SD: yep14:46
jcastro12 minute warning!14:48
faganSo everyone over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat for cookies14:49
alkethey :D14:52
teelepelcortexuvula hoe lank is jy al op Ubuntu?14:54
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fagan#ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat and questions14:56
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jcastroJust a few more minutes until we begin14:58
* popey cuddles jcastro 14:59
jcastroOk remember folks14:59
jcastroto ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat14:59
jcastroand preface them with QUESTION: so the bot can pick it up15:00
UbuntuBhoycan I pop one out now15:00
UbuntuBhoyquestion that is15:00
jcastronot really, he's not even here yet15:01
jcastroWe'll just wait a few moments for the late stragglers15:02
ogra_like the main person yopu mean ? :)15:02
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl
jcastroHe'll be around15:02
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.15:02
sabdflhello all!15:03
jcastrobefore we start let me give everyone some tips15:03
jcastroa) Try to ask something answerable, it's easier than asking questions that are hypothetical15:03
jcastrob) I'll skip questions that are easily googleable so that people with good questions don't get lost15:04
jcastroOk sabdfl, introduce yourself and I'll start when you're ready!15:04
sabdfli wholeheartedly agree with (a) :-)15:04
sabdfli'm Mark Shuttleworth, and happy to answer any and all questions15:04
sabdflespecially answerable ones :-)15:05
sabdflfire away!15:05
jcastroQUESTION: Why did you decide to make Ubuntu less customisable (in terms of how it looks, not the lenses, those are great)?15:05
sabdflI think you mean Unity, rather than Ubuntu15:05
sabdflUbuntu itself is a superset, has a great deal of customizeability15:05
sabdfland many faces - Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Lubuntu etc15:05
sabdflwith many options across all of them15:06
sabdflin Unity, we have a very tight set of options15:06
sabdflpart of that is because it's a 1.0, and we wanted to focus on the things people will most enjoy, and most need15:06
sabdflpart of that is because we know every option has a high cost, and not every option is equally used15:06
sabdflwe also know that the best people to discuss options with are often in a good position to implement them15:07
sabdflit's cheap for someone to show up and demand an option, but often they don't stick around for the prototyping, evaluation, discussion, implementation, maintenance15:07
sabdfland we have to stick around :-)15:07
sabdflas a general meme in design, options are much more expensive than people realise15:07
sabdfleach option divides the userbase into people who perhaps cannot talk to each other on the phone to help each other through an experience15:08
sabdflbecause they see and do different things15:08
sabdflas a developer, you have a LOT of options, some of which involve gconf or dconf or ccsm or patching the code15:08
sabdflas an end-user, you are dependent on developers decisions15:08
sabdflso, we prioritise the needs of the people for whom we can make the biggest difference15:08
sabdfli respect there are other approaches15:08
sabdflbut i think it's also reasonable to expect respect for the position we take15:09
sabdflwe certainly have a good and growing community that appreciates those positions15:09
sabdfland we'll work with them to make unity even better15:09
sabdflnot always by adding options, but by testing and deciding what works best15:09
sabdflit's also a fallacy that "clever developers need options"15:09
sabdflthey need robust, usable software just like everyone else15:09
sabdflso Unity is as much for developers as end-users15:10
jcastroQUESTION: Are you statisfied with Unity in the recent Ubuntu version ?15:10
sabdflyes, though i recognise there are issues, and i would not be satisfied unless we fixed many of them in 11.1015:10
sabdflin the end, when we reviewed bug lists, stability and experience, Unity was the best option for the average user upgrading or installing15:10
sabdflthere are LOTS of people for whom it isn't the best15:11
sabdflbut we had to choose a default position15:11
sabdfli think we walked that line admirably, i appreciated the open discussion that was had, and it made me more confident in the final position15:11
sabdflthat decision is best taken by the desktop team, and they were arguing in favour of unity, and they had my support for that15:11
jcastroQUESTION: will lubuntu become official?15:12
sabdfli would like it to, yes15:12
sabdfli think the lubuntu team have done excellent work to make sure that it's possible - integrating their processes and output into the main archive15:12
sabdflthere's a thread on the TB list and I'm behind on mail, we're waiting iirc for comment on tools, like iso testing15:12
sabdflfrom an experience and governance point of view, Lubuntu meets my personal requirements15:13
sabdflit has solid leaders, a good track record of delivery, and works in the spirit of Ubuntu15:13
sabdflwe need to know if there are costs or work to be done on the tools front, but I expect they are manageable15:13
jcastroQuestion: When will we see the beautiful Ubuntu monospace font?15:13
sabdflthis cycle, is my estimate15:13
sabdflask sladen!15:14
sabdflbut we've given a final view on the basic mono cell structure, now it's design and engineering, and much of the design is done15:14
sabdflthe engineering is hinting etc15:14
sabdflwe don't need that for getting it public, so i think there will be a beta soon15:14
sabdflpaul sladen will have more details15:14
jcastroQUESTION: what is ubuntu doing to match rolling release model updates (like arch)15:14
sabdfli think rolling releases are a very interesting concept15:15
sabdflwe should discuss this at UDS next week15:15
sabdflI know a few distros are embracing the concept15:15
sabdfland perhaps it would be appropriate for us too15:15
sabdflbut i don't have a view, and would be interested to hear opinions, especially the TB15:15
sabdflperhaps that will become a standard approach in future for all distros? I would not want us to be behind :-)15:16
jcastroQUESTION: Hi Mark. How much of a threat is the recent Google patent infringement suit to Canonical, Ubuntu and Linux in general?15:16
sabdflinteresting question15:16
sabdfljust to clarify - it's not Google that's filing suit, it's another company suing big users of Linux15:16
sabdflthe case has the hallmarks of a quick-and-dirty job, it was filed in a jurisdiction that very typically finds for patent plaintiffs without necessarily really understanding the issues15:17
sabdflthere appear to be some obvious inconsistencies and problems in the suit, which will get addressed in appeal15:17
sabdfland there are related suits, which may undermine the basis of that suit at all15:17
sabdflpatents are a steaming mess that stifle innovation, rather than supporting it15:17
sabdfland in order to change the system, we need mainstream recognition of that15:18
sabdflright not, major tech companies all play both sides of this15:18
sabdfland they have enough patents in their armories to get by that way15:18
sabdflbut it's getting crazy even for them15:18
sabdflthis is one reason why I prefer GPLv3 to v2, it has a nice "calming the waters" effect on patents15:18
sabdflwhich I think few people have really understood15:19
sabdflwhen this really gets crazy, the majors will be pushing FOR v3, not against it :-)15:19
sabdflanyhow, I'm not worried about this particular judgment15:19
jcastroQUESTION: Is the windicators idea completely forgotten? What happened with that?15:19
sabdflpatches welcome. i think it is needed to fill out the vision, but it's also not critical for *right now* so it's always just fallen off the list for the core team15:20
sabdflnow we have a growing team of contributors to Unity, perhaps this will get taken on15:20
sabdflit should be really straightforward!15:20
jcastroQuestion: Hi Mark The pace of change in Ubuntu seems to be getting faster and faster in adopting new ideas and themes. Do you have a future target date to ease up. Or onward ever onward?15:20
sabdflwell, part of the reason to embrace hard change now was to allow the 12.04 LTS cycle to be more polish and refinement than big-change15:20
sabdflbeyond that, onward ever upward15:20
sabdflwe've always tried to make small improvements where we can15:21
sabdflnot always successfully or brilliantly15:21
sabdflbut you learn a lot about software if you get all the bug reports, and we certainly are in that position15:21
sabdflso it's in my view frustrating for people to argue that Ubuntu is in no position to contribute to the user experience, and that work should "all be done upstream"15:21
sabdflupstream often doesn't want to slog through the bug reports :-)15:22
sabdflwhat's changing, is that we're growing our capacity in Ubuntu (and in Canonical) to build credible views on the sorts of changes we think may help, and to implement them15:22
sabdfland as a result, the number and scope of those changes is definitely increasing15:22
sabdfli don't think that's a change in policy, just a change in capacity15:22
sabdflbut i recognise it's caught people off guard, as that's crossed a threshold of publicity15:23
sabdflnot everything we do will turn out to be perfect15:23
sabdflbut as I said, we're in the position that we see, daily, how people actually use and enjoy (or not) the software15:23
sabdflso we're in a credible position to participate15:23
jcastroQUESTION: How does Ubuntu plan to take advantage of the new offerings of GNOME3, in terms of new approaches or new User Experience. Unity was huge, and that was before GNOME3. What potential improvements are waiting on GNOME3?15:23
sabdfli'm looking forward ot having all of GNOME3 in Ubuntu15:24
sabdfland I think we'll achieve that in Oneiric15:24
sabdflit's certainly a hot topic on the agenda for UDS next week15:24
sabdflI also think there continue to be lots of areas of collaboration between work done in GNOME, and Unity, and elsewhere15:24
sabdflour default position is to try and make that happen15:24
sabdflbut also to be willing to go in the direction we think will give end users the best experience, based on evidence15:25
sabdflyou will certainly be able to have a close-to-vanilla GNOME3 experience in 11.10, and the deltas will be for good reason15:25
sabdflcontrary to popular belief, even distros that claim to be vanilla, often carry a lot of patches15:26
sabdflso i feel that gnome-in-ubuntu will be faithfully conveyed15:26
sabdfland there's a great part of the Ubuntu community that cares about that and is invested in making it happen15:26
sabdflthat's why we have a GNOME3 PPA today15:26
jcastroQUESTION : What is the criteria for choosing the default applications in ubuntu?15:26
sabdfli think i blogged about this when talking about bringing Qt in as a toolkit15:27
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sabdflmaybe someone can dig up that URL?15:27
sabdflin there are the criteria I think matter: user experience, and consistency are both on the list15:27
sabdflrelationship to Ubuntu and the rest of the apps in Ubuntu-by-default matter too15:27
jcastro  http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56815:27
sabdflbecause we can always do the best work where we have the best relationships15:28
sabdflcollaboration is so much easier15:28
sabdflat the end of the day, we want anyone who chooses Ubuntu to feel they got the best experience as a result15:28
sabdflthis is a very, very tough process every UDS15:28
sabdflI don't always agree with the result15:28
sabdflbut  I respect the process the desktop team (and Kubuntu team and server team) run to make those decisions15:29
sabdfland i feel good that pretty much every other option is just an apt-get away15:29
jcastroQUESTION: how difficult will it be to get overlay scrollbars in 100% of the applications?  right now, the implementation seems to be pretty spotty.  any guestimation on what release will see overlay scrollbars in all applications?15:29
sabdflthis depends on two things: broadening the overlay-scrollbar API, and hooking it into more toolkits15:30
sabdflwe're seeing progress on both fronts15:30
sabdflpart of the rationale for pressing GO in 11.04 was to make the gaps obvious to the audience of developers who can help close them15:30
sabdflCimi has already had quite a few emails from developers asking how they can make the scrollbars work in their apps15:30
sabdflso i think it will see active development15:31
sabdfli was surprised that we got Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice working with the global menu in 11.0415:31
sabdflit all came together because folk stepped up15:31
sabdflsame is true of scrollbars15:31
sabdflso, help wanted and welcome15:31
jcastroQUESTION: Do you believe in abstract nicks Mark?15:31
sabdflit's not something i question on a daily basis :-)15:32
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sabdflwithin Canonical, I'm in the "you should pick a nick you like, not FirstnameLastname" camp15:32
jcastroQUESTION: What are your feelings about the growing number of indicators in the top panel?15:32
sabdfli spent a lot of time studying screenshots of people's desktops15:32
sabdfli asked folk to send them to me15:33
sabdfland some media picked up on that15:33
sabdflso i got thousands!15:33
sabdflthey were very interesting15:33
sabdflpeople put a LOT of stuff in their panel15:33
sabdfland partly, the fact that people can do that is something they love15:33
sabdflso we have to find a balance15:33
sabdflwe want the panel to be crisp and clean and useful15:33
sabdflwhich implies fewer icons, and less use of colour, and more MEANINGFUL use of colour15:33
sabdflyou should be able to glance at the panel and quickly see if there's something which needs your attention15:34
sabdflonce you can do that, you resent having to stare at it to understand it15:34
sabdflso we have category indicators, and will make more of the system indicators into category indicators, to encourage individual tools and apps to fit inside them15:34
sabdflthus reducing the number of icons and improving people's ability to understand roughly what's going on in their system15:35
sabdflif an app or tool really doesn't fit in a category, it's fine for it to be alone on the panel15:35
sabdflas an appindicator15:35
sabdfli don't think that's cool, if it's just "to have my icon on the panel"15:35
sabdflbecause users most often have no idea what "all those icons" are for, and adding to the problem is not cool!15:36
sabdflso if there's a category that works, it should be used15:36
sabdflif there really isn't, use an appindicator15:36
jcastroQUESTION: Are there any plans for more mainstream Ubuntu preinstalls from big name vendors? Currently, I believe only HP and Dell offer a small selection of Ubuntu laptops.15:36
sabdfli would not be here today if I didn't think we could get to a world where all the vendors sell free software based machines with Ubuntu on 'em15:37
sabdflso yes, there are plans, and credible expectations15:37
jcastroQuestion: Will 11.10 cross the limit of 1 CD release?15:37
sabdflit's a very good discipline, so no15:37
jcastroQUESTION: Hi Mr. Mark, When can we see WAYLAND in UBUNTU.15:37
sabdfli think you mean "when will it be the default display system"15:37
sabdfland the answer is "green"15:37
sabdfli think wayland is the most likely basis for future displays across most linux devices15:38
sabdfli think it will take the longest of all to get that on the desktop15:38
sabdflor something like that15:38
sabdflbefore that, it will happen in particular form factors and devices15:38
sabdflmaybe a specialised netbook here or there15:38
sabdflor ARM smartbook15:38
jcastroQUESTION: Will there be mainstream advertising, such as commercials, billboards, etc.  in Ubuntu's future?15:38
sabdflpossibly, though it's not likely to be the most effective way to reach consumers for us, for a long time15:39
jcastroQUESTION: When oh when can I get my ARM laptop running Ubuntu with an everlasting battery playing HD content?15:39
sabdflthe everlasting bit is tricky15:39
sabdflbut "all day long", within 12 months imo15:39
jcastroQUESTION: what was being in space like?15:40
jcastro(haven't had a space question in a few years!)15:40
sabdflreally magical15:40
sabdfland one of my crew mates is waiting in Florida for them to fix the shuttle so he can fly again, lucky guy15:40
sabdfli was in Russia for the 50th anniversary of Gagarin's flight15:40
sabdflit was amazing - and i think with hindsight, the friendships i made in the experience were the best bit15:41
sabdflthough i would love to fly again, perhaps further15:41
jcastroA question from Jason De Rose, one of the upstreams to the Novacut editor:15:41
jcastroQUESTION: any thoughts on how best to push for high quality *open* GPU/APU drivers? are hardware manufactures warming up? for certain workloads (like video editing), the GPU has become extremely important... any advice how, say, a startup developing a video editor could start a productive dialog with hardware mfrs?15:41
sabdflthe main thing, i believe, is to have the vendors REALLY care about Linux15:41
sabdflonce that's true, they become more and more susceptible to doing things the linux-friendly way, which is always as open source15:41
sabdflif it's a small part of their concerns, they try to find the easiest / cheapest way to check the box15:42
sabdfleven that might not be easy or cheap15:42
sabdflso i'm grateful that, broadly speaking, ATI, nVidia and Intel all take Linux seriously15:42
sabdflwe should not take that for granted15:42
sabdfli'm embarrassed when I see a rant attacking ATI or nVidia for not just doing what "the community wants"15:42
sabdflthat's not how life goes, in my experience15:42
sabdflwe need to be more relevant, in more markets15:43
sabdflthat's why we focus on user experience, so we can have end-users demanding Ubuntu, so in turn we can move up the charts in the hardware vendors minds15:43
jcastro QUESTION : for all this development of ubuntu you need lots of people, in what area would yo usay you have plenty and where do you really need more involvement?15:43
sabdfli think we need more involvement in core apps15:43
sabdflto raise the quality of experience15:43
sabdflwe've been focusing on Unity, because that's the starting point15:44
sabdflbut libreoffice, firefox, evolution, thunderbird, and many more all need love!15:44
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jcastroQUESTION: is Ubuntu profitable yet?  If not, any ideas on when it will be?15:44
sabdflno, and while we have projections which are grounds for confidence, there are also reasons to continue to push the investment faster than it would grow organically15:45
jcastroQUESTION: do u prefer iphone or android?15:45
jcastroSaamm: Ubuntu Mono font.  It's currently in design steps needed for moving to beta for the beta team, or more generally (unhinted).  If that's all good it can be hinted for final release on  http://font.ubuntu.com/  Webfonts and Ubuntu 11.10 this cycle.15:45
jcastroFor those wondering (from Paul Sladen)15:46
sabdflawesome, thanks jcastro, sladen15:46
jcastroQUESTION: Will we ever get some concrete numbers of numbers of deployed Ubuntu desktops? (aside from the hard to track ones)15:46
sabdfli don't think we could get this even if we added some sort of registration15:46
sabdfland if we added registration, lots of users would have reservations15:46
sabdflso it's unknowable, and trying too hard to know would hurt!15:46
sabdfli think it's many, many millions15:46
sabdflwe can see for example, in wikimedia's browser stats15:47
sabdflit's still only a tiny start on the world of computing15:47
sabdflbut i think we will make a much bigger dent in time15:47
jcastroQUESTION: Will Indicator API improved this cycle like missing tool tips and many other things?15:47
sabdflthe absence of tooltips is a design decision, not an API issue15:47
sabdfliirc, the content for the tooltips is actually passed in the API15:47
sabdflbut we don't display it15:48
sabdflthe reasons are that more often than not, tooltips end up being more harmful than helpful15:48
sabdflif you read code which has lots of tooltips, you'll see15:48
sabdflmost of them are unneeded15:48
sabdfloften that are flat out wrong15:48
sabdfland it's almost impossible to make them look stylish15:49
sabdflso, it's better to say to developers "put more time into the design of your *visible* UI, rather than trying to paper over it with *invisible* tooltips15:49
sabdfli understand that's a surprising position to some15:49
sabdflbut it's backed up by real research and experience15:49
jcastroQUESTION: What work is being done to make inclusion in USC for 3rd party devs as "easy" (read: well documented) as Android / Apple marketplaces?15:49
sabdflthis is MPT's area of expertise, with the app review board process and various tools being setup to support it15:50
sabdfli'm not up to speed, but perhaps he can be persuaded to shed some light15:50
jcastroQUESTION: Will the Unity 2D launcher get transperant <---- this might be a good time just to explain what you want to see in 2d for 11.1015:50
sabdfli think the need for 2D is to support chips which don't do 3D15:51
jcastro(and/or give us any tidbits/juicy news on what you want to do for 11.10, as we're running short on time now)15:51
sabdfland typically, they also do not do compositing15:51
sabdflwhich is the transparency bit15:51
sabdflso, I don't think so15:51
sabdflbut I may be wrong15:51
sabdfli'm really impressed with the unity-2d work15:51
sabdflif I'd known it would come together so well, we could have planned to get it into 11.0415:52
sabdflkudos to the folk who lead it, and the community that's growing up around Unity15:52
jcastroQUESTION: ConnMan will replace network-manager-applet on 11.10?15:52
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.15:52
sabdflthis falls into the "I don't have unilateral say on app selection" question, I think15:52
sabdflI believe ConnMan has some really important capabilities15:53
sabdfland we should give it serious consideration15:53
sabdflwe would be the first to deploy it very widely, which means the first to run into lots of issues15:53
sabdflGoogle are adopting a (fork/branch) of it for Chrome OS15:53
sabdflbut it's not ready YET, imo, to be the default15:53
sabdflI'd like it to be parallel installable easily, perhaps we can get there for 11.1015:54
sabdflhelp wanted!15:54
jcastroQUESTION: Have there been any Unity design decisions that you think will be revisited now that users have had a chance to use it and respond?15:54
sabdfloh yes15:54
sabdflthere's lots to learn, that can only be learned in reasonable time by getting code into a wide deployment15:54
sabdflsome decisions I regret and we'll evaluate alternatives, some we'll tweak15:55
sabdflit's by no means perfect, and it would be egotistical to suggest otherwise15:55
sabdflso everything is on the cards15:55
sabdflthat said, i think the bulk of it has worked out fantastically15:55
sabdflboth at an engineering level (compiz, nux) and in the user experience15:55
sabdfli'm proud of the guts required by quite a few people to commit to delivery, and the effort that went into it, and the support we've had from so many15:56
sabdflit's reassuring that others are following the broad design15:56
sabdfland we'll work out the details in round two :-)15:56
jcastroQUESTION: With the benefit of hindsight, if you could change one thing about Ubuntu since its inception, what would it be?15:56
jcastrolast one!15:56
sabdflgreat question15:56
sabdflof course, we can change anything, so this is not a meaningless question15:57
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.15:57
sabdfli think i would have been clearer about the need for us to have the capacity to implement change15:57
sabdfli think if we'd done that from the start, some things would be easier15:57
sabdflpeople would have made fewer accusations of "not contributing", because those who only measure that kind of contribution would have been able to see them from the start15:58
sabdflon the other hand, we would have established our willingness and ability to lead as well as follow at the start, which would feel like less of a change now15:58
sabdfland perhaps, folk would have been more willing to be collaborative, if that capacity had started before Ubuntu became such a substantial player15:59
sabdfli fear that, today, many of these conversations are hugely influenced by competitive dynamics15:59
sabdflprobably, both ways15:59
sabdflnevertheless, here we are15:59
jcastroAwesome, well thanks for stopping by and answering user questions, I'm sure we'll have plenty of things for next time to talk about 11.10.16:00
sabdflwe have an *amazing* community, which I think reflects the combination of values, governance and willingness to get the work done efficiently16:00
sabdflpeople want to participate in a place where their contribution will have the biggest impact on the most people16:00
sabdfland i think Ubuntu is one such place16:00
sabdflthank you!16:00
jcastroThanks everyone for contributing questions to this session, now we move on to doctormo, thanks sabdfl!16:00
sabdflthanks jorge for the stewardship of the classroom :-)_16:00
popey16:01:16 [freenode] -!-  idle     : 0 days 10 hours 31 mins 45 secs [signon: Wed Apr 13 07:18:22 2011]16:01
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Making a Poster to Spread Ubuntu - Instructors: doctormo
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.16:02
jcastrook let's give doctormo a few minutes ...16:03
jcastrosmoke if you got em16:03
=== plustwo is now known as plustwo_
jcastrook the instructor is missing, so if we shows up we'll do a partial session, if not we'll just continue at the top of the hour16:07
jcastrosorry about the inconvenience!16:07
=== budgee is now known as mbali_ntuli
=== mbali_ntuli is now known as budgee
doctormoHey everyone16:46
doctormoSorry for the delay, if you're still here for the making posters class. Then worry not. I put everything into a video: http://blip.tv/file/510159916:47
doctormoWatch it at your own leisure and feel free to email, irc message me if you have questions.16:47
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.16:52
doctormoIf you have any questions, ask away now.16:52
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.16:57
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Conquering the Command Line for Beginners - Instructors: mhall119
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.17:02
mhall119Hello everybody17:03
mhall119welcome to my session on using the command line17:04
mhall119now, there's a lot of old stereo-types about Linux, that you have to put all kinds of cryptic stuff into the command line to get things done17:04
mhall119but in Ubuntu, you can do pretty much everything in the GUI with the mouse, and you'll never ever *need* the command line17:05
mhall119but, power users still use it all the time17:05
mhall119Well, because it's fast17:05
mhall119it's fun17:05
mhall119and, believe it or not, it's easy!17:05
mhall119this session isn't going to make you masters of the command line17:06
mhall119but it will make you more comfortable with it17:06
mhall119and show you some of the cool things you can do with just a handful of commands17:06
mhall119so, to get things started, lets all pull up a terminal17:06
mhall119if you're using Unity, you can hit Alt-F2 and type "gnome-terminal"17:07
mhall119you should also be able to it ctrl-alt-T to get a new terminal window17:07
mhall119if you're on KDE, alt-f2 then "kterm" should do it17:07
mhall119if you're on anything else, I'll just assume you know how already ;)17:07
mhall119everybody able to get a terminal window up?17:08
=== zobbo is now known as zobbo|away
mhall119I'll take your silence to mean that everybody has a terminal open17:09
mhall119or that nobody is listening17:09
mhall119either way, we're moving on17:09
mhall119first off, type "pwd" and hit enter17:10
mhall119"pwd" stands for "Present Working Directory", and it tells you where you are in the file system17:10
mhall119sorry, type "pwd" in your terminal, not IRC17:10
mhall119You can think of the command line as a super file manager, and just like Nautilus (the GUI file manager), you are always "in a directory"17:11
mhall119so, pwd tells you which directory you're in17:11
mhall119next, type "ls" and hit enter17:11
mhall119"ls" stands of "list" and it'll do exactly that, list what's in your current directory17:12
mhall119so now you know where you are and what's there17:12
mhall119next, let's get moving17:12
mhall119"cd" stands for "change directory"17:12
mhall119type "cd /tmp/" in your terminal and hit enter17:12
mhall119that will change your current directory to /tmp/17:13
mhall119you can verify this by running "pwd" again17:13
mhall119and you can run "ls" again to see what's in /tmp/17:13
mhall119/tmp/ is used by a lot of programs as a place to put "temporary" files17:13
mhall119we're going to use it for the files we're going to play with17:13
mhall119everybody in /tmp/?17:14
mhall119any questions so far?17:14
mhall119ok, let's make a file17:15
mhall119ok, run "touch test"17:17
mhall119"touch" creates a new, empty file, in this case we named it "test"17:17
mhall119next we're going to make a directoy17:17
mhall119run "mkdir classroom"17:17
mhall119"mkdir" as it's name implies, makes a directory, in this case we named it "classroom17:18
mhall119now let's put our test file into our new directory17:18
mhall119run  "mv test classroom"17:18
mhall119"mv" means "move", and does exactly that17:18
mhall119now "cd classroom" to move into that new directory17:19
mhall119and "ls" to see that "test" is in there17:19
mhall119now, let's put some content into our test file17:19
mhall119run: echo "Hello world" > test17:20
mhall119"echo" just prints out what you pass it, in this case "Hello world"17:20
mhall119the > is called a redirect, I'll explain what it's doing in a minute17:20
mhall119but, suffice it to say, that full command puts "Hello world" into our test file17:20
mhall119you can check that by running "cat test"17:21
mhall119"cat" will print the contents of a file out for you to see17:21
mhall119now let's make a copy of our test file17:22
mhall119run "cp test backup"17:22
mhall119"cp" stands for copy17:22
mhall119now if you run "ls", you should see both "test" and "backup"17:22
mhall119and if you run "cat backup" you should see "Hello world", because that's what was in "test"17:22
mhall119okay, now that's pretty much the basics of using the command line for file management17:23
mhall119any questions on that before we get into the fun stuff?17:23
ClassBotkkitano asked: what does cat stand for?17:24
mhall119"cat" stands for "concatenate"17:24
mhall119because you can give "cat" multiple files, and it will print their contents one after the other17:25
mhall119concatenating them17:25
mhall119try it out by running "cat test backup", and you'll see "Hello world" twice17:25
mhall119okay, now for the fun stuff17:25
mhall119one of the most powerful aspects of the Linux command line is the ability to redirect input and output17:26
mhall119we did that earlier with >17:26
mhall119> redirects the output from a command and puts it into a file17:26
mhall119we used it to put the output from "echo" into our file "test"17:26
mhall119you can also use >>, which will append to the end of a file, instead of replacing all it's existing content17:27
mhall119< will take input from a file and pass it to a program17:27
mhall119finally, the "pipe" symbol: |17:28
mhall119this will redirect input and output between 2 programs, instead of between a program and a file17:28
mhall119using pipes, you can chain multiple programs together17:29
mhall119I'm going to introduce some common command line programs, and show you how to do powerful things by joining them together with pipes17:30
mhall119our first one is "ps", which will give you a list of running processes17:30
mhall119go ahead and run "ps"17:30
mhall119is probably won't show much, because the default settings only show what's running on your current terminal17:31
mhall119to get a list of everything running on your system, we need to pass it some additional "flags",17:31
mhall119run "ps -ef" and you'll see a whole lot more information17:31
mhall119don't worry about what it all is right now17:32
mhall119we're only going to worry about the first 2 columns, which are the username and the process id or PID17:32
mhall119next is "grep", which is a very powerful text searching tool17:34
mhall119try "grep 'world' test"17:35
mhall119and it'll search the contents of our test file for the word "world"17:35
mhall119now, let's combine them with pipes to do something useful17:36
mhall119suppose we want to list all the processes that involve "python"17:36
mhall119just run "ps -ef |grep python"17:36
mhall119this will get a list of all the processes on your system, and send that list to grep, which will only print out those lines that contain the word "python"17:36
mhall119any questions about what we just did?17:38
mhall119okay, moving on to our next command: "find"17:39
mhall119"find" will give you a list of files in a directory and all it's sub directoryies17:39
mhall119fun "find /tmp" and you'll see a lot of information go by17:40
mhall119that's every file under the /tmp directory17:40
mhall119now let's say we want to see every file under /tmp/ where the word "test" is in the file name, or in the name of one of it's parent directories17:41
mhall119we can do this by "piping" the output from find into grep again17:41
mhall119run "find /tmp |grep test"17:41
mhall119you will probably see more than just out test file, that's okay17:42
mhall119another useful command is "file"17:42
mhall119"file" just tells you what kind of file something is17:43
mhall119run "file test"17:43
mhall119and it should tell you that it's an ASCII text file17:43
mhall119it's important to note that, unlike Windows, Linux doesn't need file extensions to know what kind of file something is17:44
mhall119run "cp test test.png" to make a copy of our text file called "test.png"17:44
mhall119if this were Windows, it woud think that test.png is an image17:45
mhall119but if you run "file test.png", it still knows that it's content is only text17:45
mhall119okay, we don't need to keep this file around, so remove it by running "rm test.png"17:45
mhall119"rm" obviously, stands for "remove"17:45
ClassBotsuprengr90 asked: is it worth mention the location on keyboard of "|" as it doesn't show on the keyboard [exactly] the same?17:46
mhall119on standard US-en keyboards, it's shift+backslash17:48
mhall119I'm not sure about other keyboard layouts17:48
mhall119okay, now for some real fun17:49
mhall119"xargs" is a very handy program that will take each line that it takes as input, and pass it to another program17:49
mhall119so, let's say we want to know all the python scripts in /usr/bin17:50
mhall119since the filenames in /usr/bin don't end with .py, even if they're python files, we can't use find+grep like we did before17:51
mhall119but, using "xargs" and "file", we can check the content type of each17:51
mhall119so try running: find /usr/bin |xargs file |grep 'python.*script'17:51
mhall119let me break that down17:51
mhall1191) "find /usr/bin" this will produce a list of all the files in /usr/bin17:52
mhall119we then pass that list to:17:52
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.17:52
mhall1192) "xargs file", this says for every file in the list, run that file through the "file" command17:52
mhall119this gives us a list of all the files + their content type information17:53
mhall119which we pass to17:53
mhall1193) "grep 'python.*script'" which will filter the output, displaying only those that contain "python" and "script" with any amount of text between them (the .* part)17:53
mhall119now, take a minute to think about the number of steps and repetition it would take to do the same from the GUI with a mouse17:54
mhall119alright, a couple final commands before the session is over17:55
mhall119the "kill" command takes a process ID, like we say using "ps", and forces the process to end17:56
mhall119be careful with this command17:56
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.17:57
mhall119but, suppose you wanted to kill all gwibber processes17:57
mhall119gwibber is the default Ubuntu twitter client17:57
mhall119we can use "ps -ef |grep gwibber" like we did before to see all the gwibber processes17:58
mhall119and then run "kill" on each one17:58
mhall119but that can be tedious17:58
mhall119instead, let's introduce "awk"17:58
mhall119awk is a very powerful scripting too, but we're going to use it for something very basic, printing out the 2nd column only from ps17:59
mhall119the 2nd column is the process id17:59
mhall119so run: ps -ef |grep gwibber | awk '{print $2}'17:59
mhall119now you have the process id's for the gwibber processes17:59
mhall119now we can use xargs again to pass each one to kill18:00
mhall119(again, don't actually try this)18:00
mhall119ps -ef |grep gwibber |awk '{print $2}'|xargs kill18:01
mhall119will find all the gwibber process ids and pass them to the "kill" command18:01
mhall119now, it's hard to remember all the ways to use commands, not even power users remember them all18:01
mhall119fortunately, there's easy ways to find out18:01
mhall119almost every command will take the "--help" flag and give you a short description of how to use it18:02
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to AppArmor - Instructors: jjohansen
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.18:02
mhall119also, "man" will give you the full documentation18:02
jjohansenwell lets get started18:05
jjohansenHello and welcome to the AppArmor session.18:05
jjohansenMy name is John Johansen and I am a Kernel Engineer for Canonical18:05
jjohansenFor those not familiar with AppArmor it is a mandatory access control (MAC) style security system.  Basically it limits an application to a preset list of resources,18:06
jjohansenwhether it is run as root or not, and it is always gets applied ie. the user doesn't get to change it.18:06
jjohansenToday I plan to walk through the basics of AppArmor, feel free to ask questions at anytime, though if they don't fit into the current discussion I may wait until later to answer them.18:06
jjohansenWe are going to need a terminal open as AppArmor currently does not have18:07
jjohansenany GUI based tools.18:07
jjohansenIn unity you can do this by pressing the meta (windows) key and typing terminal18:07
jjohansenor in the classic gnome environment  Applications >> Accessories >> Terminal18:07
jjohansenFirst up we will look do some basic introspection of AppArmor18:08
jjohansenTo see if apparmor is enabled from the terminal type18:08
jjohansen aa-status18:08
jjohansenif enabled it will return18:09
jjohansenapparmor module is loaded.18:09
jjohansenYou do not have enough privilege to read the profile set.18:09
jjohansenthat is enough to tell apparmor is loaded and active but not see what it is doing18:09
jjohansento get a full picture we need to use sudo18:10
jjohansensudo aa-status18:10
jjohansenwill return a much larger list of items18:10
jjohansenapparmor module is loaded.18:11
jjohansen47 profiles are loaded.18:11
jjohansen12 profiles are in enforce mode.18:11
jjohansen   /sbin/dhclient18:11
jjohansen   /usr/bin/evince18:11
jjohansen   /usr/bin/evince-previewer18:11
jjohansen   /usr/bin/evince-thumbnailer18:11
jjohansen   /usr/lib/NetworkManager/nm-dhcp-client.action18:11
jjohansen   /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_java18:11
jjohansen   /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_openjdk18:11
jjohansen   /usr/lib/connman/scripts/dhclient-script18:11
jjohansen   /usr/lib/cups/backend/cups-pdf18:11
jjohansen   /usr/sbin/cupsd18:11
jjohansen   /usr/sbin/tcpdump18:11
jjohansen   /usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession18:11
jjohansen35 profiles are in complain mode.18:11
jjohansenthat is just part of my listing18:11
jjohansenso on my example system, there are 47 profiles loaded into the kernel18:12
jjohansenof those 47 profiles only 12 of them are being enforced18:13
jjohansenthis means that applications confined by those programs, can only do what is specified by the profile18:13
jjohansenif they try to do anything not specified by the profile the access will denied the application with EPERM or EACCES18:14
jjohansenthe rest of the loaded profiles are in complain mode18:14
jjohansenthis is a special "learning" mode where profiles confined by a profile don't have access listed in a profile fail18:15
jjohanseninstead, the access is logged and allowed, so the application runs normally but the behavior and accesses are logged so they can be learned and a profile developed18:16
jjohansenthe information aa-status spits out can also be obtained using ps -Z, but it won't be organized near as nice18:18
jjohansenbut can be useful to know if you need to do something with shell scripting18:18
jjohansenpidof cupsd | xargs ps -Z18:19
jjohansenLABEL                             PID TTY      STAT   TIME COMMAND18:19
jjohansen/usr/sbin/cupsd                   939 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/cupsd -F18:19
jjohansenshows that cupsd is confined by the /usr/sbin/cupsd profile18:19
jjohansenthe LABEL column provided by the -Z option to ps is the profile listing18:20
jjohansenapplications that are not confined by a profile are listed as unconfined18:20
jjohansenunconfined                       4497 pts/1    00:00:00 bash18:21
jjohansenthere is another useful command for introspecting network facing programs18:22
jjohansenit will show programs that are unconfined and have open network sockets18:22
jjohansensudo aa-unconfined18:23
jjohansen825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)'18:23
jjohansen825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)'18:23
jjohansen939 /usr/sbin/cupsd confined by '/usr/sbin/cupsd (enforce)'18:23
jjohansen1671 /sbin/dhclient confined by '/sbin/dhclient (enforce)'18:23
jjohansen1970 /usr/bin/mumble not confined18:23
jjohansenthis can be real nice to help find applications that you would like to limit, as internet facing applications are generally the ones you need to worry about being hacked18:24
jjohansenaa-unconfined does have a limitation in that it only picks up applications with current connections, if an application is opening and closing connections (eg firefox), it may not list it18:25
jjohansenQUESTION: Why does sudo aa-unconfined show me multiple programs with the same pid?18:26
jjohansenwell good question, it is likely because there are multiple threads, which share the pid18:27
jjohansenaa-unconfined, and aa-status both have man pages that are worth looking at18:31
jjohansenman aa-unconfined18:31
jjohansenman aa-status18:31
jjohansenboth commands get their information mostly from 2 places (for those who like nitty gritty details)18:32
jjohansenthey are worth poking at if you like figuring things out, btw <pid> should be replaced with a processes pid18:33
jjohanseneg.  /proc/825/attr/current18:33
jjohansenso if you are using apparmor, I find one of the most useful things is the notifier18:34
jjohansenits in the apparmor-notifier package if you don't have it installed18:35
jjohansenfrom the command line you can install it using18:36
jjohansen sudo apt-get install apparmor-notifier18:36
jjohansenor you can search for it in the software center18:36
jjohansenthis will install the aa-notify program and in natty turn it on by default18:37
jjohansenthe notifier will pop up notifications when apparmor denies access to something18:38
jjohansenthis can be real nice to have18:39
jjohanseneither because it reminds you that apparmor is confining the application and that is possibly why you are getting unexpected behavior18:40
jjohansenor well because something happend that wasn't expected and apparmor stopped it18:41
jjohansenman aa-notify18:41
jjohansenfor more details18:41
jjohansenactually one more detail18:42
jjohansenit doesn't start on its own, the enabled bit just allows it to get the information from the log files18:43
jjohansenI have it added to my startup applications18:43
jjohansenName: AppArmor Notify18:43
jjohansenCommand: /usr/sbin/apparmor-notify -p18:43
jjohansenComment: startup apparmor notifications18:43
jjohansenso we have covered basic introspection, I want to switch gears for a minute and mention how to disable apparmor18:45
jjohansengenerally I wouldn't but if it is causing problems, there are multiple ways to get it out of your way18:46
jjohansenthe best is just disabling a profile, if you just have apparmor interfering with a single application that you need18:47
jjohansenyou can run18:48
jjohansen  sudo aa-disable <profile name>18:48
jjohansenor if you like doing things manually18:48
jjohansen  sudo ln -s /etc/apparmor.d/<profile file> /etc/apparmor.d/disable/<profile file name>18:49
jjohansenwhere <profile file> is the file name for the profile causing problems18:49
jjohansenhowever if you don't use aa-disable you will need to manually reload the profile set18:50
jjohansen  /etc/init.d/apparmor reload18:50
jjohansenwill do that for you18:51
jjohansenyou can verify that the profile is gone with aa-status18:51
jjohansendisabling a single profile is the recommended way of working around a problem as it still leaves other applications protected by apparmor18:52
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.18:52
jjohansenif you want to stop apparmor for all applications for the current session18:52
jjohansen  /etc/init.d/apparmor teardown18:53
jjohansenwill remove all current profiles, making every process unconfined18:53
jjohansenon reboot apparmor will be back to normal18:54
jjohansenif you want to disable apparmor on boot, you can enter18:54
jjohansen  apparmor=018:54
jjohansenon the grub command line,18:54
jjohansenhopefully nobody will need those but it always seems to come up in bug reports18:55
jjohansenAlright switching back, so as you might have inferred apparmor stores its policy in18:56
jjohansen  /etc/apparmor.d/18:56
jjohansenthese are simple text files, that get compiled by the apparmor_parser and loaded into the kernel for enforcement18:56
jjohansenthe file names in the directory are actually arbitrary18:57
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.18:57
jjohansenthey don't have to be named after the applications that are being confined18:57
jjohansenit is just done by convention18:57
jjohansenalso a file can contain multiple profiles, that is not usually done however unless they are related18:58
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html19:02
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
counhow does this work? I thought Shuttleworth was supposed to be answering questions?19:20
UbuntuBhoybeen and gone19:20
nigelbcoun: He did. Earlier today.19:20
counoh. screwed up time :019:20
counhehe. logs up yet?19:20
sabri_icone_how to open a new webchat in the IRC ?20:13
sabri_icone_for exemple, i want to open #ubuntu ?20:14
TLEsabri_icone_: /j #ubuntu20:15
sabri_icone_waw , amazing thanks ;)20:15
sabri_icone_ther's a tutoriel for how to use webchat IRC ?20:16
TLETry and google it, there is probably like a million of them20:16
sabri_icone_thanks , i will do that20:17
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