offerpookhow to edit ubuntu code?07:15
offerpookpls help me07:15
offerpookiwant to have a special ubuntu07:15
Snicksieofferpook, if you just want to change your look, ask in #ubuntu how to do that (appearance is something that will help you, check it out before you ask there ;) ). if you want to change the code of ubuntu itself (programming), try learning some programming languages, grab the code and change it how you like it. thats difficult though07:26
=== fucrum is now known as fulcrum
jcastrowoo! welcome everyone12:59
jcastroBug Guru session in 1 hour!12:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to Become a Bug Guru! - Instructors: hggdh
jcastroWoo, we'll get started in a minute14:00
jcastrohggdh: about ready?14:00
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/20/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.14:00
hggdhjcastro: as reaqdy as I will ever be14:00
hggdhhello. I am one of the Ubuntu Bug Squad/Bug Control admins14:01
hggdhI will be a bit slower today, my notes for this class perished in a backup accident14:02
hggdh(not a real bug, though, just an user error)14:02
=== Wilczek_ is now known as Wilczek
hggdhif you have any questions, please post them on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat prefixed by QUESTION: <- note it is upper cased14:03
hggdhthe question itself, of course, can be mixed case14:03
=== zyga is now known as zyga-afk
hggdhWe at Ubuntu receive an amazing amount of bug reports; Launchpad (the program we use for -- among others -- bug reporting) is logging, right now, more than 850,000 bugs14:05
hggdhthose are *all* bugs on LP, Ubuntu or not. Ubuntu-specific  bugs are less, I would say around 700,00014:05
hggdhof which ~70,000 are still open...14:06
hggdh(for the record, we do not have 70,000 people analysing these bug reports)14:06
hggdhso. Much more bugs than bug triagers. What to do?14:07
hggdhfirst off: we can try to have bugs (more) correctly opened14:07
hggdhthis is important -- we spend a lot of time trying to figure out which version of Ubuntu is the reporter running, what package/program is this all about, etc14:08
hggdhno counting the description of the problem -- "I did not work as I asked"14:09
hggdhthis causes a bit of triage work -- first making sense of the sentence above (not that difficult, but already predisposes the triager against), then having to ask the reporter "what did not work as you expected? What did you expect? What did happen?", etc, etc14:10
hggdhgiven things like the above, and the sheer amount of new bugs every day (monitor the channel #ubuntu-bugs-announce to have an almost real-time view of bugs as they arrive), we now prefer that bugs are opened from the reporter's system14:12
hggdhvia 'ubuntu-bug' -- you run 'ubuntu-bug <package>', replacing '<package>' by the correct package (see below) or -- if you do not know the package, 'ubuntu'14:13
hggdhthis will collect a minimal set of data -- your Ubuntu version, the package version, and -- depending on the package -- a series of data relative to the package14:14
hggdhand -- as a result -- we will not need to waste time asking VERY basic questions, like "what is your Ubuntu version?", etc14:15
hggdhYOu can still directly open a bug on Launchpad; nevertheless, if you are not an expert on the issue, chances are you will forget to add some crucial tiny bit of data, and will make the bug work a bit more delayed14:16
hggdhfor finding the package: you can search by the program's name, using either apt-file, or apt-cache, or dpkg:14:18
hggdhapt-file: must be manually installed (not a default install option); it keeps track of *all* packages, be them locally installed or not14:19
hggdhapt-cache: (IDK if it is an auto-install) -- keeps track of all *installed* package contents14:20
hggdhdpkg: can search the locally-installed package contents14:20
hggdhof all the above I usually prefer apt-file (for searching), since it is not necessary that a bug will be about a package I have installed14:21
hggdhfor the record, you use 'apt-file search blahblah', or 'apt-cache search blahblah', or 'dpkg -S blahblah'; these programmes have many more options, and most of them are interesting for someone working on bugs14:23
hggdhso, please, *always* Read the Man Page.14:23
Baldiis there any difference between installed, and local installed packages i might have missed? thought it was the same, but itb14:24
hggdhon what I am talking about, there is no difference -- installed == locally installed == (locally) installed14:25
hggdhbut there are a few thousands packages in the archives, and an Ubuntu install is usually between 700-1300 packages14:26
hggdhor something like it14:26
hggdhIf you cannot find the package name for running ubuntu-bug, then open the bug against Ubuntu. This is not the preferred way -- we would rather have a correct package in the bug -- but it is better than directly using Launchpad14:27
hggdhubuntu-bug will collect some data, and THEN open a browser on launchpad, and ask you to enter details of the bug14:28
hggdhplease -- PLEASE -- do enter details on what is going on (or not going on, as the case may be). One common mistake we do is think that everybody else knows what *we* know. Nothing is farther from truth...14:30
hggdhplease explain your issue. Use your own words, do not try to make it more "technically correct" -- making it technically correct is *OUR* job. But do explain WHAT, WHY, HOW14:32
hggdhWHAT happened, WHY it was unexpected, HOW you tried it14:32
hggdhI understand that all you know is 'it did not work as I wanted/needed/expected'. But, at this point in time you know much more that we. If *we* do not understand the what, why, and how, there is little chance you will get a resolution14:34
hggdhBy the way, another thing we are very much insistent on: please be nice or, at least, neutral. We have a Code of Conduct, and we *do* abide by it.14:36
hggdhOf course, most of the folks working on Ubuntu, be it bugs, or coding, or packaging, are _volunteers_. Antagonising a volunteer is usually not a good way to have *my* problem resolved...14:37
hggdhaggressive behaviour/moods are very frown upon14:38
hggdhanother point of contention is the Meaning of Status and Importance14:39
hggdh(which are much more discussed than the meaning of life, the universe, and everything)14:39
kamilnadeemXubuntu class?14:40
hggdhfor the real gory details, please look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase14:40
hggdhand specifically https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status14:41
hggdhbut... INVALID means 'this is not a bug'14:41
hggdhbut it is rather generic, and quite strong14:42
hggdhwe close (a bug) invalid when the reporter recants ('very sorry, but I found that I was doing blahbleh instead of the correct yaddayadda'), or is asking for *support*, or is about a non-ubuntu package, or...14:43
hggdhsupport is a very special case, and most prone to get end-users confused14:44
hggdha BUG is a *problem* in a package -- program crashing, does not start, does not accept (correct) input, fails to uninstall, etc14:45
hggdha SUPPORT request is a *question* about how to use a package/program/whatever14:46
hggdhlaunchpad deals with BUGs, not support14:46
hggdhfor support... a marvelous site is http://askubuntu.com/14:46
hggdhfor the record, I usually go there if I have a doubt on how to get something done14:47
hggdhand I have started providing some answers of my own; after all, if I use it to resolve my doubts, it is only fair to also answer about what I know14:48
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.14:50
hggdhFinalising, we -- bug triagers and similar -- usually congregate at #ubuntu-bugs. If you have a question on *triaging* -- how-to, can it be set as triaged, etc --, this is the pace to go14:50
hggdhand this is it.14:50
hggdhThank you very much, and you all have a nice day14:50
jcastrook, just about 8 minutes until the next class14:52
jcastroso we'll take a break, smoke if you got em!14:52
pastiWill that be the Xubuntu class?14:53
kirklandpasti: no, Ubuntu Orchestra14:54
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.14:55
jcastropasti: xubuntu will be the one after14:58
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Orchestra -- Servers, Live and in Concert! - Instructors: kirkland
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/20/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.15:00
jcastrook kirkland, take it away!15:00
kirklandhowdy all!15:00
kirklandthis session is about Ubuntu Orchestra15:00
kirklandwhich is (what I think to be) perhaps the most exciting feature in Ubuntu 11.10 on the Server side15:00
kirklandyou can think of Orchestra as *the* way of installing Ubuntu servers over the network15:01
kirklandit's a collection of the best of open source packages15:01
kirklandfor provisioning, installing, logging, monitoring, and managing15:01
kirklandphysical systems installed with Ubuntu Server15:01
kirklandin this session, i'll introduce you to the parts of Orchestra, and even demonstrate the bits I can15:02
kirklandfor demonstration, please ssh guest@ec2-107-22-49-46.compute-1.amazonaws.com15:02
kirklandthe password is 'guest'15:02
* kirkland waits for anyone else to show up there :-)15:02
kirklandaha, someone else logged on :-)15:03
kirklandokay, good15:03
kirklandso I'll start by installing Orchestra, with 'sudo apt-get install ubuntu-orchestra-server'15:03
kirklandthat's going to take a minute15:04
kirklandin the mean time, let's look at the different parts of Orchestra15:04
kirklandfirst, and foremost, there's a provisioning server15:04
kirklandthe provisioning server is largely Cobbler (which is an excellent project from the Fedora team)15:05
kirklandbut we've added a few bits to surround cobbler15:05
kirklandthat makes it even more useful in Ubuntu environments15:05
kirklandwe also use the distro-info command to determine the list of currently supported ubuntu releases15:06
jcastro.oO (you can find more info on cobbler here: https://fedorahosted.org/cobbler/ )15:06
kirklandand every Sunday morning, Orchestra will go out and fetch the latest Ubuntu mini.iso's, and automatically import them into Cobbler15:06
kirklandso that your Orchestra installation is always ready to install each of the Ubuntu releases15:06
kirklandotherwise, you'd need to do this manually yourself, and frequently to keep up with changes15:07
kirklandthe provisioning server also contains a squid proxy15:07
kirklandso that as network installations are performed, the vast majority of the binary data is cached locally15:07
kirklandthis ensures that subsequent installations happen very fast15:08
kirklandnote that you can also point Orchestra/Cobbler to your local mirror, if you have one15:08
kirklandbut even if you don't (mirrors take upwards of 500GB of disk, and lots of bandwidth to keep in sync)15:08
kirklandyou'll at least get the convenient benefit of squid cache15:08
kirklandOrchestra also includes dnsmasq, which is configured at your option15:09
kirklandOrchestra/Cobbler can use dnsmasq to manage your dhcp and dns, which allows for some pretty cool features15:09
kirklandbut doesn't necessarily fit into everyone's network infrastructure15:09
kirklandso we leave it as optional15:10
kirklandif you want to use Juju with Orchestra (which, I'm not going to get into in this session), you MUST enable Orchestra to manage dhcp+dns with dnsmasq15:10
kirklandokay, so that's the Provisioning Server15:10
kirklandOrchestra also includes a Logging Server15:11
kirklandthis is really, really cool!15:11
kirklandthe Orchestra server is a rsyslog remote logging server for all of its installed clients15:11
kirklandwhen performing remote, headless installations, you can watch the installation proceed by tailing the syslog on the Orchestra Logging server15:11
kirklandas part of the installation, Orchestra exchanges SSL keys with the machine being installed, so that this logging happens over a secure SSL encrypted connection (after installation)15:12
kirkland(note that the installation logs are logged in the clear, over UDP, which I think is a limitation of the debian-installation and busybox)15:12
kirklandbeyond the Logging Server, Orchestra also includes a Monitoring Server, which, for now, is just Nagios15:13
kirklandthe Nagios CGI web front end and aggregate server is installed on the Orchestra Server, and nagios clients are installed on each installed machine15:13
kirklandat UDS in Orlando, we're going to revisit this, and consider some other monitor options in addition, like collectd, munin, and ganglia15:14
kirklandnow, the Orchestra-installed clients themselves15:14
kirklandare a little more than your basic Ubuntu server15:15
kirklandwe've made a few opinionated decisions with Orchestra to really get these machines working well, locked in tight step, with one another15:15
kirklandall of the machines are running NTP and have their time sync'd15:15
kirklandwhich is *very* important for the syslogging15:15
kirklandthey're all running an SSH server, and they have the Orchestra server's keys installed on them15:16
kirklandall of their /etc configuration directories are managed by etckeeper15:16
kirklandwhich means that /etc is under bzr revision control, and gets committed any time dpkg or the administrator makes a configuration change15:16
kirklandthis *really* helps manage configurations over time (take a look at etckeeper, if you're not already using it!)15:17
kirklandall of the clients run cloud-init (like Ubuntu systems in EC2)15:17
kirklandeven though these are physical machines, they can run cloud-init too15:17
kirklandthough we don't use metadata15:17
kirklandJuju uses this to pass information to the machine via the preseed15:17
kirkland<jcastro> QUESTION: Is orchestra a 11.10+ only feature, or is there a PPA for my older 10.04 servers?15:18
kirklandjcastro: there is an orchestra ppa, ppa:orchestra/ppa15:18
kirklandjcastro: where the packages are automatically built and uploaded as part of my release-build and release scripts in the bikeshed package15:18
kirklandjcastro: but note that those PPA packages are completely untested15:18
kirklandjcastro: we'll accept and fix bugs in those, as possible15:19
kirklandjcastro: but those PPA packages are on a best-effort basis, no more15:19
kirklandback to the client, it also installs the rsyslog daemon as well15:19
kirklandokay, so that's the basics ...15:19
kirklandour installation is done on our machine in the cloud15:19
kirklandif you're late joining, feel free to join us with ssh guest@ec2-107-22-49-46.compute-1.amazonaws.com15:20
kirklandlet's take a look at a couple of things15:20
kirklandfirst, the configuration in /etc/orchestra15:21
kirklandthere's a configuration for the ISOs you want orchestra to automatically import15:21
kirklandwe use a decent set of defaults, i think15:21
kirklandbut you can override those here15:21
kirklandfor instance, if you just want to import Oneiric and Lucid 64-bit iso's, you can do that here15:21
kirklandwe also default the locale of each machine to en_US15:21
kirklandfor obvious reasons, you might like to change that :-)_15:22
kirklandwe also have a set of settings in /usr/share/orchestra15:22
kirklandthese are not in /etc as we can't really support people changing them15:22
kirklandpart of what we're doing in Orchestra is getting things working well together15:23
kirklandand that means we have to require a few configurations15:23
kirklandnext, let's look at the preseed files15:23
kirklandwhich are the instructions for the machines that Orchestra installs15:23
kirklandthe goal here is to install physical machines15:24
kirklandin a headless, remote manner15:24
kirklandwhich means we must answer *all* installation questions ahead of time15:24
kirklandand we do that with preseed files15:24
kirklandlet's look at /var/lib/orchestra/kickstarts/orchestra.preseed15:24
kirklandthese are the base templates for those installations15:25
kirklandCobbler provides an *awesome* mechanism for customizing these, actually15:25
kirklandand we'll look at the cobbler interface here shortly15:25
kirklandbut this is our Orchestra "distro default" preseed15:25
kirklandsomething that we've tested the heck out of, and *know* works well15:25
kirklandtoward the bottom of that file15:25
kirklandyou should see some $SNIPPET()'s15:26
kirklandthis is another cobbler feature we're leveraging here15:26
kirklandthese are basically #include's that bring in installation instructions from elsewhere15:26
kirklandso cobbler ...15:26
kirklandcobbler is *awesome*15:26
kirklandwhen we first started working on the Orchestra project, we evaluated several different network installation mechanisms15:27
kirklandsuch as cobbler, fai, uec-provisioning, etc.15:27
kirklandwe also considered writing our own15:27
kirklandhowever, all of us that looked at Cobbler in depth were very impressed with the possibilities15:27
kirklandmost importantly, it had 3 things we wanted15:27
kirkland 1) a command line interface (ie, the cobbler command -- see the manpage at http://manpg.es/cobbler)15:28
kirkland 2) a web interface (we're going to look at that in a minute)15:28
kirkland 3) MOST IMPORTANTLY, it has a python API15:28
kirkland(3) was the real kicker for us!15:28
kirklandusing the Python API, we can now tie Cobbler (and ultimately Orchestra) to lots of other interesting projects15:28
kirklandlike Juju15:29
kirklandand Landscape15:29
kirklandsudo cobbler distro list15:29
kirklandthis shows the list of distros imported into cobbler15:29
kirklandremember that "automatic" part?15:29
kirklandhere's how you can see that it happened!15:29
kirklandanyway, we could spend hours playing with the cobbler command15:30
kirklandcheck the manpage, and you'll see that you can list, add, edit, remove lots of configuration entries15:30
kirklandat this point, though, let's take a look at the web interface!15:30
kirklandso i'm going to give you all the URL and the cobbler user's password15:31
kirklandand trust that you don't do destructive things to the database :-)15:31
kirklandone second ...15:32
kirklandi need to ec2-authorize this machine15:33
kirklandhang on, sorry, juju issues here15:35
kirklandokay, gonna need to come back to this one :-)15:38
kirklandi'm starting a second orchestra instance in the background15:38
kirklandturns out cobbler_web and ajaxterm conflict on the web interface :-)15:38
kirklandtoo much going on with this system15:38
kirklandi'll pause here for questions...before moving on15:38
kirkland<jcastro> nealmcb: yeah I have a cobbled together box that does most of this15:39
kirklandjcastro: right!15:39
kirklandjcastro: that's kind of what we're trying to solve, at a distro level15:39
kirklandI'm betting many, many Ubuntu admins out there have hacked together something like this15:39
kirklandit's kinda fun to setup a pxe + tftp + mirror server, and do some network installs15:39
kirklandmaybe the FIRST time :-)15:39
kirklandbut once you have to do it more than once15:39
kirklandor, maybe you have to do it for a HUGE network15:40
kirklandthat's what we're trying to help you with, in Orchestra15:40
kirkland<jcastro> QUESTION: How can I add other distros to orchestra/cobbler? Like if I wanted to try a Fedora or SUSE15:40
kirklandjcastro: excellent question15:40
kirklandcobbler works with lots of distros15:40
kirklandin fact, it was pretty broken with Debian/Ubuntu, until we started working with the upstream project15:40
kirklandwithin Orchestra, we don't auto import other distros, but it's pretty easy to do15:41
kirklandwhen i get the web interface up, i'll show you15:41
kirklandnote that we're not testing those other distros at all, right now15:41
kirklandand we're not shipping preseeds/kickstarts for them either15:41
kirklandso it might take a little work on your part to get them working15:41
kirklandbut we've also not done anything to specifically disable or break those15:42
kirklandin fact, if you or anyone else wants to contribute kickstarts, etc. to orchestra that makes it work better with other distros, i don't see any reason why we wouldn't take them15:42
kirklandokay, almost done installing Orchestra sever #2 :-)15:43
kirkland<mmclark> QUESTION: How does Orchestra compare with (or work with) tools like Chef?15:43
kirklandmmclark: good question15:43
kirklandmmclark: in the early version of Orchestra (the 1.x series is unsupported, but still in Launchpad), we actually relied quite heavily on puppet15:44
kirklandmmclark: but as we saw the Juju project mature, we eventually switched everything over to Juju15:44
kirklandbut, if you have preseeds that set up your puppet or chef environment how you like15:45
kirklandit would be trivial to add those as snippets to your base preseeds in Orchestra15:45
kirklandand Orchestra would basically get you to the point where your system is installed and rebooted on the bare metal15:45
kirklandand if you're an expert Chef/Puppet shop, your Chef/Puppet conf management would take over at that point15:45
kirklandit's actually a pretty seemless transition15:46
kirklanduser and password are both cobbler15:46
kirkland<nealmcb> QUESTION: You baked some configuration into /usr/share, including e.g. some apache stuff.  Are there places where this makes it hard for folks to install or customize their own services and apps?15:47
kirklandnealmcb: to an extent, yes15:47
kirklandnealmcb: this was a difficult balance we had to walk15:47
kirklandnealmcb: something things (like the squid proxy), we absolutely require to be setup in a particular way, or else the tools just don't work15:47
kirklandnealmcb: apache and squid, etc., are fundamentally "embedded" dependencies of what we're doing with Orchestra15:48
kirklandnealmcb: file bugs, though, as you run into problems15:48
kirklandnealmcb: and we'll do our best to get them worked back into /etc, if they're real issues15:48
kirklandnealmcb: we're already using dotdee to fix a few issues like this15:48
kirklandokay, let's look at this web interface!15:48
kirklandthis is the old-school Cobbler web ui, with a slick Ubuntu color scheme and CSS skin15:49
kirklandclick down the operations at the left side15:49
kirklandDistros ->15:49
kirklandand you should see the list of distros that it auto-imported15:49
kirklandclick on one of those distros15:49
kirklandand you'll see some configuration that we auto populated15:49
kirklandclick Profiles ->15:50
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.15:50
kirklandand again you'll see a bunch of auto generated profiles15:50
kirkland(note that you can create your own here)15:50
kirklandclick a profile15:50
kirklandand you'll see some more stuff you can edit15:50
kirklandlike the kernel parameters, for instance15:50
kirklandclick Systems ->15:50
kirklandand you'll see this is empty here :-(15:51
kirklandunfortunately, this is the MOST interesting of all the sections15:51
kirklandas this is where the physical machines actually live15:51
kirklandclick Create New System and you should see what a machine looks like to cobbler15:51
kirklandnote that Daviey wrote an awesome utility called cobbler-enlist15:51
kirklandwhich is now on the 11.10 Server ISO15:51
kirklandwhich facilitates the autopopulation and injection into this row in the cobbler mysql datbase15:52
kirklandthis is where you would import the 1 or 10 or 10000 machines you want Orchestra to install15:52
kirklandyou can poke around here for a bit15:52
kirklandi'll leave this instance running for a full hour15:52
kirklandback to jcastro's question ....15:52
kirklandjcastro: look at the Import DVD link on the left15:53
kirklandjcastro: this is how you would use the web interface to import a new distro15:53
kirklandnote that *everything* you can do through the web ui you can *also* do from the command line and api15:53
kirklandjcastro: so you'd first import the iso15:53
kirklandjcastro: then you'd need to click Profile15:54
kirklandjcastro: and create a Profile15:54
kirklandjcastro: sorry,15:54
kirklandjcastro: 1) import iso, 2) create distro, 3) create profile15:54
kirklandjcastro: it's kind of a multi part, complicated process15:54
kirklandjcastro: which is why we auto-import all of the ubuntu isos15:54
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.15:55
kirklandQUESTION: <lunitik> I was under the impression that Ubuntu Orchestra 2.x still uses puppet extensively, as per deps in ubuntu-orchestra-common... just, juju automates throwing that out to your cloud env15:55
kirklandlunitik: Orchestra 2.x doesn't use puppet at all implicitly;  though it's certainly possible for you to add a couple of puppet snippets and extend Orchestra to use puppet15:55
kirklandlunitik: Juju was first written to talk to virtual machines and EC2/Cloud instances15:55
kirklandlunitik: however, that team did some AWESOME work to get Juju talking to the Orchestra/Cobbler python API15:56
kirklandlunitik: and now Juju can work against bare metal too15:56
kirklandlunitik: so 'juju bootstrap' would ask Orchestra/Cobbler for a physical machine to bootstrap15:56
kirklandlunitik: and 'juju deploy ...' asks Orchestra/Cobbler for a physical machine to deploy15:56
kirklandlunitik: and in those cases, Orchestra triggers a new installation of a machine15:57
kirklandlunitik: and ~5 minutes later, there's a brand new orchestra client that's waiting for instructions from Juju15:57
kirklandah, i forgot about powernap and powermanagement in Orchestra!15:57
kirklandall Orchestra clients are running powernap in powersave mode by default (though you can tune that up or down)15:57
kirklandand if you add powermanagement information into Cobbler (ie, WoL, impi, etc)15:58
kirklandthen Cobbler can automatically power on/off systems, as you (or Juju) asks for them to be deployed15:58
kirkland<jcastro> QUESTION: Ok so one could just add enlisting in a kickstart rule or whatever and this would autopopulate?15:58
kirklandjcastro: i don't understand the question15:58
kirklandbut I'm about out of time15:58
jcastroI'll follow up later15:59
kirklandfeel free to talk to me or others in the #ubuntu-server channel15:59
kirklandbtw ...15:59
kirklandroaksoax, spamaps, mathiaz, daviey, zul, smoser, and a bunch of others15:59
kirklanddid a lot of work on Orchestra15:59
kirklandthe whole Ubuntu-Server team kicks ass :-)15:59
kirklandthanks all!15:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Xubuntu: What is that? - Instructors: charlie-tca
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/20/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.16:00
charlie-tcaI'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead and Xubuntu Project Lead.16:01
charlie-tcaWelcome to Open Week and Xubuntu16:01
charlie-tcaWe are going to talk a bit about Xubuntu. We will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and16:02
charlie-tcawill have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to. Feel free to ask questions at any time,16:02
charlie-tcabut please start them with QUESTION: so they easy to spot. For example,16:02
charlie-tcaQUESTION: What is Xubuntu?16:03
charlie-tcaThe answer would then be16:03
charlie-tcaXubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop instead of Gnome and Unity. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.16:03
charlie-tcaXubuntu is pronounced "zoo-boon-too" in english.16:03
charlie-tcaAs a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. Xubuntu is built and maintained by volunteer contributors and developers combined.16:04
charlie-tcaWe still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.16:05
charlie-tcaXubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.16:05
charlie-tcaWe produce both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Xubuntu. The images may be burned to CD-r or copied to a USB drive for installation. There is no DVD version of Xubuntu.16:05
charlie-tcaAnd, since Xubuntu is a derivative of Ubuntu, we use the same repositories, and many of the same applications.16:06
charlie-tcaThose of us on the team really believe the stated minimums should be real! If we can't run what the minimums say, we question it.16:06
charlie-tcaGranted, we don't expect perfect performance from it, but the system should be usable.16:07
charlie-tcaUsing Xubuntu, we expect the applications provided to be able to run, one at a time with the minimum hardware.16:07
charlie-tcaAs the hardware increases, we would expect the performance to increase.16:07
charlie-tcaNew users are often surprised to find that Xubuntu includes a number of gnome applications.16:08
charlie-tcaThese are included simply because if an application works well, and is considered lightweight, it fits.16:08
charlie-tcaAny application can be included, and it does not matter if it starts with gnome, xfce, k or anything other letters.16:08
charlie-tcaThe target audience for Xubuntu is users who are interested in having a modestly light weight, slim, fast desktop experience.16:09
charlie-tcaThose users should be able to retain the usability and functionality that is required to provide an easy to use desktop environment.16:09
charlie-tcaXubuntu does not specifically focus on new users or users migrating from Windows; alternative distributions such as Ubuntu may be more appropriate for first time Linux users16:09
ClassBottomswartz07 asked: What influenced the choice to use XFCE over Opebbox or other lightweight DE's?16:10
charlie-tcaAXubuntu does not specifically focus on new users or users migrating from Windows; alternative distributions such as Ubuntu may be more appropriate for first time Linux users16:10
charlie-tcaAn excellent question, tomswartz0716:10
charlie-tcaXubuntu choose Xfce in 2006 because it was ready. It allowed Xubuntu to put together a quality desktop, which would give Ubuntu the top three desktop environments of the time (Gnome, KDE, Xfce)16:11
charlie-tcaXubuntu does not specifically focus on new users or users migrating from Windows; alternative distributions such as Ubuntu may be more appropriate for first time Linux users16:13
charlie-tca(especially first time Linux users who may be particularly at risk of experiencing difficulties due to lack of general experience).16:13
charlie-tcaXubuntu does not exclusively target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum with a strong focus on enabling lower end machines.16:13
ClassBotoliverhr asked: Plans to migrate or support for Gtk3?16:13
charlie-tcaThanks for asking, oliverhr16:14
charlie-tcaAs Ubuntu has switched to GTK3 as much as possible, we also are integrating it.16:14
charlie-tcaHowever, Xfce does not plan to switch to Gtk3 for a while yet.16:15
charlie-tcaCurrent plans for Xfce 4.10 do not include migration to Gtk3 yet. They are instead looking at stability of Gtk2 for the next release.16:15
charlie-tcaXubuntu will support Gtk3 applications in 11.10, and we will continue to use both Gtk2 and Gtk3. As a matter of fact, Greybird theme used by Xubuntu 11.10 is the only Xfce theme designed for both gtk2 and gtk3.16:17
charlie-tcaXubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users regardless of their hardware.16:17
=== zyga-afk is now known as zyga
charlie-tcaAre there other applications that could provide the same functionality? Most definitely.16:18
charlie-tcaWe are using applications that are light in resources, and relatively easy to configure for most users.16:18
charlie-tcaYou are welcome to use other applications if you desire.16:19
charlie-tcaAs a matter of fact, we do routinely check our applictions as well as others to see if they still belong in Xubuntu.16:19
charlie-tcaA few of the more well known alternatives which could make the desktop a bit more lightweight are:16:19
charlie-tcachromium - an open source browser - http://www.chromium.org/Home16:20
charlie-tcaclaws-mail - a very nice mail client with many options - http://www.claws-mail.org/16:20
charlie-tcagpicviewer - A Simple and Fast Image Viewer for X - http://lxde.sourceforge.net/gpicview/16:20
charlie-tcageeqie - a lightweight Gtk+ based image viewer for Unix like operating systems. - http://geeqie.sourceforge.net/16:21
charlie-tcamidori - a lightweight browser in development by Xfce. For more information see http://software.twotoasts.de/index.php?/pages/midori_summary.html16:21
charlie-tcaPino - a simple and fast X11 client for Twitter and Identi.ca - http://pino-app.appspot.com/16:21
charlie-tcaAny or all of these can be installed by the user. Please check the repositories before downloading or compiling applications.16:22
charlie-tcaPlease note that the above applications are not presented as approved or recommended by myself or Xubuntu. There are given here as examples.16:22
charlie-tcaXubuntu does not install these applications by default at this time. Why not?16:23
charlie-tcaSince we have limited developer resources available, we use applications maintained by Ubuntu that fit our needs. The application must also have a good user GUI, if possible.16:23
charlie-tcaThe more complicated it is to configure the application for use, the less likely it will fit the requirement.16:23
charlie-tcaSome of the above are still in development, and are not yet released as a stable version. That, too, must be considered before including the application in a stable operating system.16:24
charlie-tcaAre there any other questions?16:24
charlie-tcaWe will work very closely to the Ubuntu bugsquad when triaging, and follow the guidelines set in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage.16:25
charlie-tcaA very important idea in triaging is that just because only one person had a failure, that does not make it invalid.16:26
charlie-tcaWe work very close with upstream xfce, abiword and gnumeric bug teams to help resolve the bugs found. Once you report a bug, it goes through a process called bug triage.16:26
charlie-tcaBug triage is simply the process of determining that there is a bug, how important is the bug to the overall scheme, and is there enough information for a developer to resolve the bug.16:26
charlie-tcaYou will find that I often triage the Xfce, Abiword, and Gnumeric bugs for this reason. I am also the bugsquad contact for these bugs.16:26
charlie-tcaAt this time, I would like to hit on some of the key points in Xubuntu 11.10, otherwise known as Oneiric Ocelot.16:27
charlie-tcaThe contributors and developers of Xubuntu consider Xubuntu 11.10 to be one the best releases yet. Through their efforts, this distribution continues to improve steadily.16:28
charlie-tcagThumb is now in the default Xubuntu 11.10 installation, to help users with image transformations and viewing. The Xubuntu developers wanted to insure an enjoyable, usable operating system. By including gThumb, along with Rhistretto, users have the ability to not only view all images and files, but also to perform minor editing of photos.16:28
charlie-tcaleafpad is the new default text editor(was mousepad), and now includes the ability to print.16:29
charlie-tcaFor those users who prefer it, gedit also works quite nicely in Xubuntu 11.10.16:29
charlie-tcapastebinit is now included in Xubuntu 11.10 intallations by default. If you need to use http://paste.ubuntu.com/, you can use pastebinit in terminals to paste directly without copying and pasting the data.16:29
ClassBotTonyP asked: ​ How does the Xubuntu footprint compare with Ubuntu.  I have an old EEEPC with a 4GB SSD and it is a struggle to update it due to insufficient space. Would Xubuntu be a better choice?16:30
charlie-tcaThank you for asking, TonyP16:30
charlie-tcaXubuntu uses about 30% fewer resources than Ubuntu. Where Ubuntu will require about 4 GB for the installation, using a Xubuntu alternate cd to install, it will use as little as 2GB.16:31
charlie-tcaWe also can use less ram, but it will affect performance.16:32
charlie-tcaOf course, all numbers do depend on what you add to the basic installation,.16:33
charlie-tcaTonyP: I could suggest adding a USB pendrive to help with the space. Plugging in a 4 or 8 gb drive and using it for /home or even /tmp could alleviate that issue.16:34
charlie-tcaLightDM is the new application that manages logins in Xubuntu 11.10.16:34
charlie-tcaOnboard (the onscreen keyboard) is now included in the default Xubuntu menus, under Accessories. For those who require an onscreen keyboard, this will be much easier to access using only a mouse or touchpad.16:35
charlie-tcaXubuntu will continue to use Synaptic Package Manager, yet provides the Ubuntu Software Center for those who prefer it.16:35
charlie-tcaThunderbird is a lightweight mail/news/RSS client. It fits well with the fewer resources desired for Xubuntu, yet remains an easy to configure application for the new user.16:35
charlie-tcaThe Ubuntu Font Family  is available for your use and enjoyment. It is not, however, the default fonts in Xubuntu.16:36
ClassBotTonyP asked: ​ Why the alternate CD?16:36
charlie-tcaTonyP: because of the GUI installer used by the desktop cd, it requires more memory and drive space to complete it'16:37
charlie-tcaits installation. The alternate cd uses a text based installer instead of a point and click installer.16:37
charlie-tcaThat allows it to complete the install with fewer resources.16:38
ClassBotchute asked: Will all ubuntu applications run on xubuntu?16:39
charlie-tcaIf the application is in Ubuntu repositories, it should work on Xubuntu. It may need more resources than we have installed by default, however.16:40
charlie-tcaExample:  To install gedit requires about 5 other things.16:40
charlie-tcaTo install Evolution requires the majority of gnome to install16:40
charlie-tcaOkay! If there are no other questions, let's take a look at where Xubuntu is heading.16:41
charlie-tcaXubuntu does use the Ubuntu Release Schedules.16:42
charlie-tcaThe next release will be Precise Pangolin. Will there be major changes for Precise Pangolin? I really do not know at this time.16:42
ClassBotoliverhr asked: How Xubuntu is compared against Lubuntu on performance stuff?16:44
charlie-tcaLubuntu is the winner in lightweight Ubuntu flavors! There is a definite place for them among the others.16:45
charlie-tcaAs a general rule, Lubuntu is about 30% lighter than Xubuntu in terms of memory and drive space required.16:45
charlie-tcaIt is an excellent choice for your older computers that struggle when using Ubuntu or Xubuntu.16:46
charlie-tcaWill Precise see Xfce 4.10? Only time will tell. Xfce developers have not completed their work at this time, and there is not a good release date yet.16:47
charlie-tcaIf it is released in time, it will definitely be included in the next version of Xubuntu.16:47
charlie-tcaWe owe a great deal of Xubuntu's success to the Ubuntu teamwork. Without Ubuntu leading the way, Xubuntu would not be where it is today.16:49
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.16:50
charlie-tcaOur volunteers are very passionate about Xubuntu.16:50
charlie-tcaThey spend considerable time working to create the best possible Operating System they can, and the results do reflect that.16:50
charlie-tcaIts helps that the Ubuntu base is so awesome to work with in the first place, too.16:51
charlie-tcaXubuntu Precise is going to be an exciting release to be a part of.16:51
charlie-tcaXfce 4.10 is going to include much more accessibility related stuff, too.16:52
charlie-tcaHow and where to get involved with Xubuntu?16:53
charlie-tcaGetting started with Xubuntu is easy and fun! For the average user, you can get help and support through either #xubuntu on Freenode or the xubuntu users mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users. We're a friendly bunch and enjoy helping folks :-)16:53
charlie-tcaPlease don't enter #xubuntu expecting a lot of conversations happening.16:54
charlie-tcaWe are usually monitoring the channel, but we are not as busy as #ubuntu, and will not be constantly chatting there.16:54
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.16:55
charlie-tcaWe are holding an election this month, October 23 at 22:00 UTC in #xubuntu-devel, to elect the next Project Lead. This person has overall responsibility for each release. There are two nominees, myself and Pasi Lallinaho (known as knome on IRC).16:55
charlie-tcaAll Xubuntu users registered in https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users are invited to attend the meeting and vote for the project leader.16:55
charlie-tcaXubuntu comes ready to use on any equipment. It gives excellent performance with no loss of applications.16:56
charlie-tcaWe welcome all new users to Xubuntu!16:56
charlie-tcaAs part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!16:56
charlie-tcaEven if you just want to use Xubuntu, feel free to drop into #xubuntu and say hello.16:57
ClassBotoliverhr asked: What language for development you recommend for writting apps for xubuntu ? I been playing arouund with vala.16:57
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Canonical and Community - Instructors: rickspencer3
charlie-tcaThank you all for being here.17:00
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/20/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.17:00
rickspencer3hello world17:00
rickspencer3print 'hello world'17:00
rickspencer3jcastro, hello?17:01
jcastrook welcome back everyone17:01
jcastronow we have Rick Spencer who will be doing a Q+A17:01
jcastroRick can you introduce yourself, where you're from, and what you do?17:02
rickspencer3my job title is "Director, Ubuntu Engineering"17:02
rickspencer3that means that I work for Canonical17:02
rickspencer3and my job is to manage Canonical's engineering contributions to the Ubuntu project17:03
rickspencer3so, all he engineering managers report to me17:03
rickspencer3as well as jono (Community Manager) and skaet (the release manager)17:03
jcastroso should we start with the questions?17:04
rickspencer3jcastro, sure17:04
rickspencer3akgraner asked e to come and answer questions about canonical and community partnership17:04
rickspencer3and other topics that might come up17:05
jcastrook everyone you can start asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat17:05
rickspencer3I'm happy to discuss anything any time17:05
* rickspencer3 drums fingers17:05
ClassBotjcastro asked: Mark mentioned the importance of quality in his blog about 12.04, can you go into some detail on how quality will be a focus for Precise and how teams will work together to meet this goal?17:06
rickspencer3oh boy17:06
rickspencer3this is a biiiig one17:06
rickspencer3let me start by talking about what we did in 11.1017:06
rickspencer3pgraner took over the QA Engineering Manager role right around when we started Oneiric17:06
rickspencer3he quickly implemented some important changes17:06
rickspencer3specifically, he set up a hardware lab where we could run Ubuntu through automated tests each and every day17:07
rickspencer3setting up the lab, setting up Jenkins to run the tests, working with Jenkins and Lava to report the results17:07
rickspencer3deploying the tests to the lab, etc...17:07
rickspencer3this all took a lot of work17:08
rickspencer3in some areas we had good tests in place17:08
rickspencer3for example, ev is the main author of Ubiquity, the installer, and he had written lots of tests17:08
rickspencer3so, in 11.10, we found we ran into fewer installer issues than previously releases17:08
rickspencer3so, now we have 11.10 as a foundation for 12.0417:09
rickspencer3in 12.04 we will continue this work in a few ways17:09
rickspencer3first, all canonical code that is bound for Ubuntu will come with a set of tests to catch regressions *before* they hit Ubuntu17:09
rickspencer3we will be hiring a new person on the Community team to support the literally hundreds of community members who are active in assisting with testing17:10
rickspencer3our goal will be to make 12.04 usable every day of the cycle17:10
rickspencer3so we can develop quickly, and end up with a better quality release17:10
rickspencer3we'll also be having a small set of engineers focused exclusively on quality issues in the archives themselves17:11
rickspencer3so, between these efforts, I expect we should see a measurable improvement in the quality of the release17:11
rickspencer3which is important because this is probably the #1 thing that people tell me they want to see in the next release17:12
rickspencer3a lot of work there17:12
ClassBotzyga asked: how is lava used in Ubuntu?17:12
rickspencer3from my point of view, lava is a test reporting framework developed by Linaro17:13
rickspencer3they way it works is that it has a Python library that lets you take the output of tests, and put it into a standardized format17:13
rickspencer3you can then write views based on that format, and generate web pages with whatever view you want17:13
rickspencer3I don't think we currently have any such views set up, but we are working with the Linaro team to create them when everything is ready17:14
ClassBotjcastro asked: What's your favorite feature in 11.10, and do you have a specific thing you're looking forward to in 12.04?17:14
rickspencer3that's a bit tough for me to answer17:14
rickspencer3I think my favorite thing might be juju17:14
rickspencer3and I'm not just saying that to make jcastro happy17:15
rickspencer3I like it because it takes very complex things, and makes them accessible for daily usage17:15
rickspencer3it's just a joy for me to be able to deploy and link up things like mysql and rails in a real public cloud with a few simple commands17:16
rickspencer3these are things I know I can do, but I never want to because it is so painful17:16
rickspencer3also, it means that I can develop a web site in the same environment that I will deploy into17:16
rickspencer3that has significant benefits for me as a developer17:16
rickspencer3on the client ... it's too hard to say17:17
rickspencer3I guess I love the keyboard friendliness of Unity17:17
ClassBotjcastro asked: Can you talk a bit on how you see the relationship between Canonical and the community evolving?17:18
rickspencer3wow, that is open ended17:18
rickspencer3I'll take a whack17:18
rickspencer3Ubuntu is first and foremost an open source community distro17:19
rickspencer3that has a strong corporate backer17:19
rickspencer3when I started using Ubuntu, I wanted to be part of the community for a few reasons17:19
rickspencer3the CoC made it a nice place to be, for example17:19
rickspencer3but a more fundamental thing was Canonical was there to do some of the things that only a company could do17:20
rickspencer3negotiate with OEMs, for example17:20
rickspencer3this mean that my contributions would reach a lot of people17:20
rickspencer3also, I could see that Canonical decided to really depend on the success of Ubuntu17:21
rickspencer3so Ubuntu would be around for a while, reach a lot of people17:21
rickspencer3so my contributions would be enduring17:21
rickspencer3I don't think this fundamental dynamic has changed17:21
rickspencer3so, where does it evolve from here?17:21
* rickspencer3 thinks17:22
rickspencer3I see a couple of things happening17:22
rickspencer3one thing that is delightful, is that there are a lot of new people contributing in new and different ways17:22
rickspencer3many of them non-technical17:22
rickspencer3for example, there were at least 2 very slick promotional campaigns about 11.10 release that were totally community contributed17:23
rickspencer3I think Canonical will have to adjust it's approach to community support a bit to figure how to best enable these new kinds of contributors17:23
rickspencer3another thing that I see evolving is the impact of major contributions from Canonical to Ubuntu17:24
rickspencer3Unity being the obvious example17:24
rickspencer3when Canonical became such an important upstream to Ubuntu, it really changed the equation in weird ways17:24
rickspencer3I don't know where this is going , tbh17:25
rickspencer3but I don't think the fundamental dynamic really changed17:25
rickspencer3we still have our governance structures in place17:25
rickspencer3we still have the CoC17:26
rickspencer3sorry, that was really a terribly rambling answer17:26
rickspencer3let me move on ;)17:26
ClassBotzyga asked: what is the best way to start learning about juju (assuming you don't have a cluster at home)17:26
rickspencer3there is no way I am stealing jcastro's thunder on that one17:26
rickspencer3fwiw, I used it against Amazon Web Services, but you can try it locally now too17:27
jcastrozyga: there was a juju session on monday, I'll send you the log links17:27
ClassBotjcastro asked: How do you respond to criticisms that design decisions (specifically to Unity) are appear to be closed off from the rest of the community?17:27
rickspencer3well ... I don't know what you mean by "closed off"17:27
rickspencer3I guess there a few dimensions of this17:28
rickspencer3first, Ubuntu has always had a strong value of letting the right people make final decisions17:28
rickspencer3so, the kernel team makes decisions about the kernel17:28
rickspencer3the desktop team chooses what's in the default desktop ISO17:29
rickspencer3in the same way, the Unity team should be empowered to make their best decisions about what's in Unity17:29
rickspencer3however, I suspect the real question may be "I don't like some design decisions in Unity, and no one listened to me"17:29
rickspencer3I can say that designing something that will get zero criticisms is not really possible17:30
rickspencer3also, in terms of contributions, Unity is quite open17:31
rickspencer3They take lots of contributions from people, including changes to behavior when it makes sense17:31
ClassBotzyga asked: what is the best way for ISVs to deliver packaged applications for many versions of ubuntu (like in our case starting with lucid onwards)17:32
rickspencer3there is a sweet new website called developer.ubuntu.com17:32
rickspencer3that should be the best way to get you started17:32
rickspencer3there is no "one size fits all" answer, though17:32
rickspencer3it really depends on if your project is gratis vs. paid, libre vs. proprietary17:33
rickspencer3how the program works, what kind of program it is, etc...17:33
rickspencer3jcastro, if there are no question, can I talk a bit about app development?17:34
ClassBotzyga asked: followup, a free software project on a monthly release schedule, targeting ubuntu server, is developer.ubuntu.com the right place for that (our app is comprised of many source / binary packages)17:34
jcastrosure, that would be quite important to go into detail with17:34
rickspencer3developer.ubuntu.com is really aimed at desktop apps, actually17:35
rickspencer3I'm not sure about hte details of your situation, if you want to pop me an email, I can get you hooked up with someone to discuss the details with17:35
rickspencer3so, while waiting for questions, speaking of 12.04 ...17:36
rickspencer3well, 11.10, I mean17:36
rickspencer3I think 11.10 is a really solid platform for writing apps17:37
rickspencer3by "app" I mean small tools solving small problems17:37
rickspencer3I think this for a few reasons17:37
rickspencer31. developer.ubuntu.com has tons of resources17:37
rickspencer3you can get started even if you've never written an app before17:37
rickspencer32. you can upload your apps via developer.ubuntu.com for free or paid17:38
rickspencer3you can charge for them even if they are open source17:38
rickspencer3this is really fun, and a great way to contribute to Ubuntu too17:38
ClassBotrickspencer3 asked: I have no real burning question right now. I was mostly curious about the choice of unity and why user's input was not taken into consideration. But I see now it's the Desktop Team's decision17:39
rickspencer3I stole a question from the chat room ;)17:40
rickspencer3I think this deserves a real answer17:40
rickspencer3I don't want people to think that user's input was not taken into consideration17:40
rickspencer3nothing regarding Ubuntu is ever decided in that manner17:40
rickspencer3I have to stress how complicated decisions like this are17:40
rickspencer3we faced a situation where:17:40
rickspencer31. proprietary desktops were outpacing our innovation17:41
rickspencer32. GNOME 2.x, our stallwart upstream, was going away17:41
rickspencer3something had to be done17:41
rickspencer3it was not possible to stick with the past17:41
rickspencer3I've experienced many changes like this on software projects through the years17:42
rickspencer3and no matter how necessary the change, there are always a significant number of users who want to keep the old system17:42
ClassBotzyga asked: what major changes can we expect after the next LTS ships?17:43
rickspencer3well, I hope that becomes clear at UDS17:43
rickspencer3I have a few things on my list that I would like to see17:43
rickspencer3I'd like to see some attention to what I call the "bread and butter" office use case17:44
rickspencer3someone should be able to plug a laptop into a doc or external monitor, and have something sensible happen17:44
rickspencer3they should be able to unplug the laptop, go to a meeting, plug into a projector, run the meeting, go back to their desk, plug in the monitor again17:45
rickspencer3I already mentioned the testing that we are planning17:45
ClassBotzyga asked: will there be any web-application integration in 12.04? (like adding a web app to the sidebar, quicklist integration, messaging menu, etc?)17:46
rickspencer3I honestly do not know what is in the works for that17:46
rickspencer3it sounds like a good addition though17:46
rickspencer3I've actually started wrapping up websites that I like in gtkwebkit views so that I can get some of these benefits17:47
rickspencer3so I know it's doable17:47
ClassBotgenii-around asked: Are there any plans for a deb-delta type system of updates?17:47
rickspencer3you know, I've seen this discussed at every UDS, but never seen it come to pass17:47
rickspencer3I think you are talking about a system where only the diff between the local package and the package in the repo is downloaded17:48
rickspencer3sorta like an rsynch17:48
rickspencer3resulting in much less downloading with each update17:48
rickspencer3I don't think Canonical is going to buid such a thing n 12.04, but if someone else contributed that, I am certain it would be embraced17:49
jcastroYou can follow along in the blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-debdelta17:49
rickspencer3lookit that17:49
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.17:50
rickspencer3so, if there are no more questions for now ...17:50
rickspencer3I'd like to talk a bit about the loco community around here17:50
rickspencer3where "here" is Toulouse in SW France17:50
rickspencer3one of the weird things about working on a project like Ubuntu, is that you work in your own house17:51
rickspencer3there are people on the Ubuntu Engineering team based in Portland, OR, all the way to Sydney17:51
rickspencer3which means, you don't really get tied down to a particular place17:51
rickspencer3so, my wife and I decided that we would move from Seattle to France for a year or so17:52
rickspencer3when I got here, the local Ubuntu community as just soooo supportive17:52
rickspencer3huats, the head of the loco runs an open source based company17:52
rickspencer3they let me use their office when I want17:53
rickspencer3they help me when I don't understand something that I got in the mail17:53
rickspencer3they offer me rides, introduce me to people17:53
rickspencer3it really drove home what "Ubuntu" and the community was all about17:53
rickspencer3French Loco ftw!17:54
ClassBotjcastro asked: About developer.ubuntu.com, does it support out-of-band updates for app authors? So can I update to a new version of my app and submit it outside of the normal freeze processes in the distro?17:54
rickspencer3jcastro, as if you don't know ;)17:54
jcastroactually I don't know this one!17:54
rickspencer3there are several ways to get an app into Ubuntu17:54
rickspencer3ok, fair enough17:54
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.17:55
rickspencer3so, you can put an app in debian, and it will likely get synced into Ubuntu17:55
rickspencer3you can package it and have a motu upload it to Universe17:55
rickspencer3you can even get it into main17:55
rickspencer3however, an app needs to be ready for the repos before that version of Ubuntu ships ... and it's hard to change once it's in there17:55
rickspencer3this is great if you want to provide your users with a stable experience, and have your app available on day one of a release17:56
rickspencer3myapps provides a different channel17:56
rickspencer3it's for apps written for a release *after* that version of Ubuntu was released17:56
rickspencer3so, I could write an app tomorrow that works for 11.10, and get it into 11.1017:56
rickspencer3then a month later I could update it, and get changes in as well17:56
rickspencer3of course, if you use Quickly to write your app, everything is that much easier17:57
rickspencer3well ...17:58
rickspencer3I guess it's winding down17:58
rickspencer3it's late here, so I'll log off, but ...17:58
rickspencer3I want everyone to know that it's important to me that people feel they can ask me questions, raise concerns, get help, etc... from me at any time17:59
rickspencer3so I really appreciate the opportunity to do these Q+As17:59
jcastro\o/ thanks Rick!17:59
jcastrook everyone, that wraps up our sessions for the day17:59
jcastrojoin us tomorrow at 1400UTC for more sessions17:59
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/20/%23ubuntu-classroom.html18:00
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=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== marcoceppi_ is now known as marcoceppi
collisonsystmHow much have i missed?22:53

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