tjagoda3 million downloads per day from appworld now00:02
tjagodaNot as shabby as the stats once were00:03
jrwrensnap-l: Windows Phone 700:06
snap-ljrwren: Hell no00:30
tjagodaHe said that just to troll =P00:34
* tjagoda writes off WIndows phone like other people write off Blackberry 00:34
jrwreni write off win phone too.01:21
jrwrenbut if iphone is a no, and android is a no... I think winphone is 3rd.01:21
jrwreni sure as hell wouldn't want a BB01:21
rick_hjrwren: I want to map() over a list and if any returns false come back with a single false value, what is the name of the thing I'm thinking of?01:26
jrwrenbut if none are false you want the result to be the list of newly built things?01:27
rick_hno, basically True01:27
rick_hhave a list of checks, want to process and see if anything comes up false else we're golden01:27
jrwreni only know the .net terminology :(01:27
rick_hI think I'll just do it via reduce() and go there01:28
rick_hjrwren: ah, that makes sense01:28
jrwrenit is a reduce01:28
jrwrenso that is a good place to go01:28
rick_hyea, don't think YUI has a built in for it01:28
jrwrenprolly not01:28
rick_hjrwren: yea, the Y.Array stuff has some "truthy" checks but it's more "process until you get a non-truthy then quit procoessing"01:29
rick_hok, well this is depressing: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/03/the-fireplace-delusion-a-metaphor-for-religious-belief.html01:40
snap-lrick_h: Yep, the human race has a lot of gree grees01:47
jrwrenits a strawman.01:52
jrwren"obvious harm to our health and environment" is a load of b.s.01:52
jrwrenwhat harm to either of those?01:52
jrwrenshow me hte science for that.01:52
jrwrenthere is none.01:52
jrwrenbut it is nice to hear an athiest talking about how religeous athiests can be.01:53
snap-ljrwren: Well, there is something to be said for not maintaining something burning in your house01:56
jrwrenthe gas at my stove burns01:56
jrwrenand in my furnace01:56
jrwreni maintain them both regularly01:56
jrwrenthe writer is an asshole.01:57
snap-lNo, he's creating a strawman01:57
jrwrenyes, but i don't like his style.01:57
jrwrenhe comes off as an asshole.01:57
snap-lEver encountered a militant athiest?01:57
jrwrenmy wife is practically one :p01:57
snap-lThey're pretty much like militant religious folks01:58
jrwreni try not to call her stupid to her face.01:58
jrwrenyes, they are.01:58
jrwrenatheism is a religion.01:58
snap-lOh yeah01:58
jrwrennot much different from fundamnetalist christians or islamists01:59
jrwrensomeday there will be a group of atheists killing people, just like jihadists02:00
jrwrenor terrorizing people like westboro nutters02:00
snap-lOK, Is everyone ready for a meeting?02:00
snap-lWe have a lot coming up in the next few months02:01
jrwrenoh no is that now?02:01
jrwrenwhat a terrible prequel :)02:01
snap-lFirst order of business02:02
snap-lA2 Hosting partnership02:02
snap-lGot contacted by Brd Litwin of A2 Hosting to sponsor the Ubuntu MI grou02:02
rick_hruh roh...02:02
rick_hwhoa? interesting02:02
snap-lThe text of the mail is in the agenda item02:03
jrwrenlets negotiate!02:03
snap-lBrad has also contacted MUG for sponsorship02:03
rick_hheh, ok reading02:03
jrwrentell him sure, as long as the group can have a free VPS :p02:03
rick_hhmm, is this out of CHC you think?02:03
snap-lOn the surface I think there's not much we can do for each other02:03
rick_hor just form letter? I don't know I'd considered teh loco a web dev org02:03
snap-lIt's a form letter02:03
snap-lMUG got exactly the same thing02:04
rick_hyea, I mean I don't think the Loco has much hosting needs02:04
jrwrenboth are true.02:04
rick_hI think other groups like MUG and such are a better place for referrals/etc02:04
brouschwait, is this a meeting?02:04
jrwreni also don't know how many referals we would make.02:04
snap-lYeah, I think the best we could do is refer people to A202:04
jrwrenI mean, I could make personal referals and say "tell 'em ubuntu mi sent ya"02:04
rick_hright, I mean what would we do? Have the A2 hosting ad moment at group meet ups02:05
snap-lbut we have our own hosting through Canonical, and we have no treasury02:05
rick_hsnap-l: +102:05
jrwrenno treasure is key I think, and we should keep it that way.02:05
rick_hjrwren: +102:05
jrwrenmaybe we could refer them to more A2 centric groups?  AACS and the like?02:05
rick_hwoot, love just +1'ing other people02:05
rick_hexactly, I think MUG is a great fit02:05
rick_hsnap-l: isn't mug already hosted on A2?02:06
snap-ljrwren: Yeah, I think AACS would be a better fit02:06
snap-lrick_h: Yep, and we're paid for 3 years02:06
rick_hyep, AACS and is that AA web dev group still around?02:06
snap-lbut Jim is checking into it02:06
jrwrena2div is not around, but there is a new a2 node group.02:06
rick_hsnap-l: yea ok cool. I'd say we just respond with a "that's awesome, we don't really fit but have you checked out the following..."02:06
snap-lDo you folks have contact information for the other groups?02:07
rick_hand lead to other groups as a nice thing for an "area" business02:07
jrwreni have contact info for all the groups mentioned so far.02:07
rick_hooh, I should pull up the guy for the detroit dev days stuff02:07
jrwreni don't know about other groups... BUT02:07
jrwrenwe could ask him to donate the $85 to the linux foundation.02:07
rick_hin case of referral?02:08
jrwrenit would be kind of cool to raise money for a linux nonprofit02:08
snap-ljrwren: Would you send me the contact info for the AACS and the A2 Node group?02:08
jrwrensnap-l: pm ok?02:09
snap-l(e-mail) ;)02:09
snap-lOK, anything else on that?02:09
snap-l(getting folks fired up. :) )02:10
snap-lMoving on, then to item #2: Penguicon02:10
snap-lAnd the release party02:10
snap-lrelease party is at Penguicon this year, as it was last year02:10
snap-lThe hotel liason is aware of this, so I think the only thing we need to do is show up at the bar area02:11
snap-lI'm not sure how well it'll accomodate folks. If it gets too big, we'll figure something else out02:11
snap-las always, hotel rules trup the party02:11
snap-ltrump, rather02:11
jrwreni don't know if anyone heard, but the PC tech track is in need of speakers02:12
jrwrentech track has been weak the past few yrs and they are looking to bring back some good stuff02:12
snap-lWe've also been asked to do a panel discussion for Precise Pangolin02:12
snap-lI'll send out a separate e-mail to ask for volunteers for that02:13
snap-lBut yes, Penguicon is in dire need of a tech track02:13
snap-lPCon is like stone soup in that regard. The more tech folks that come forward, more tech folks volunteer to show up02:14
snap-lSo, if you have any inkling of ideas you'd like to present at PCon (rick_h) please contact them.02:14
* rick_h whistles dixie...02:15
jrwrenmaybe BZR for the git junkie02:15
rick_hbah, ok I'll look forward to the email and look into it02:15
snap-lI'm debating on presenting the podcast talk again, with a little more focus02:15
rick_hmeh, I can talk on shell, vim, JS testing, ORM fun, whatever02:15
tjagodado vim02:15
rick_hI'll check the dates and figure something or two out I guess02:15
brouschnow that canonical owns you you have to talk ubuntu02:15
snap-lrick: tech@penguicon.org02:16
tjagodaIts the hardcore stuff that's cool02:16
brouschrick_h could just sit there for an hour and code02:16
snap-lThe zen of code02:16
brouschbring the loud keyboard for best effect02:16
jrwrenperformance coding is real, if you haven't seen it, look it up02:17
rick_h"keyboarding for the geek with tastes"02:17
snap-lOK, so any other thoughts on PCon?02:17
rick_hno, was secretly hoping it didn't coincide with release party this year :P02:17
snap-lrick_h: Yeah, good luck with that. :)02:17
* snap-l doesn't let on that his secret goal is to see rick_h partying with pirates.02:18
tjagodaIf I still have this job @ Penguicon I probably won't be at this Penguicon02:18
snap-ltjagoda: Work on that.02:18
jrwrenhttp://prog21.dadgum.com/28.html http://impromptu.moso.com.au/gallery.html :)02:18
snap-lOK, Moving on to item #302:19
snap-lGlobal Jam is coming up02:19
snap-llike REAL SOON NOW02:19
snap-ljrwren: Is SRT available for that weekend?02:20
jrwrententative yes. I need to confirm02:20
jrwrenSRT almost never has weekend things going on, so it should be easy to secure02:21
snap-lOK, awesome02:21
snap-lLMK if that falls through02:21
snap-lThinking we could do what we did before with a 12-5pm jam02:22
snap-lThat seemed to work out OK02:22
rick_hyea, works for me02:22
jrwrensounds good02:22
rick_hbah, except I've got family in town now that I load hte page02:22
rick_hwell maybe...hmmmm02:23
snap-lBring 'em down02:23
snap-lThat's the event info02:25
brouschcan you put it on the ubuntu-michigan calendar?02:25
snap-lMore details forthcoming02:25
snap-lThat is the Ubuntu MI calendar. :)02:25
snap-lAnything else we need to talk about the jam in here?02:27
snap-lOK, last item:02:28
snap-lSWAG for upcoming events02:28
snap-lI have failed to ask about this02:29
snap-l(sad trombone)02:29
snap-lI will send out a mail to enquire about this02:29
snap-lThat's all I have02:30
snap-lany other business?02:30
snap-lbrousch: One thought: is West MI planning on coming to Ann Arbor?02:32
brouschi will try to come out for bug jam. probably have our own release party at the weekly grlug meeting02:33
snap-lPlease put the release party for GRLUG on the calendar whenyou get a chance.02:33
brouschoh, right02:34
snap-lOK, unless there's anything else, I think w can call this a meeting02:40
snap-lThank you, everyone102:40
jjessewe had a meeting on super bowl sunday?02:40
snap-lWe're geeks02:40
snap-lIt's just another sunday02:40
jjesseyou're missing some great commericals02:41
snap-lPardon me while I don't give a shit. :)02:41
jjessejust trying to be funny, guess i'll crawl back under my rock02:41
snap-ljjesse: Sheesh, don't take me seriously. :)02:41
_stink_heh - i didn't watch a single minute of the game.  usually i would03:28
_stink_i don't even know if it's done yet.03:28
rick_hheh done03:29
_stink_i do have it DVRed, but uh, i'd have to zip through it tonight or avoid all media and humans tomorrow to keep the result a secret until i watch it03:36
_stink_that's the good thing about recording overseas soccer games03:37
_stink_no one wants to talk about them03:37
greg-grecording what?03:37
_stink_my wife said something about Madonna03:38
greg-goh, that's who played the crypt keeper tonight?03:43
greg-g(joke wasn't mine, saw it flow along the twitterstream)03:46
_stink_thanks, DVR!  i just watched it in about 40 minutes.04:38
nate22any ladies near ann arbor10:07
snap-lGOod morning11:49
brouschthe subaru tranny troubles have been temporarily fixed with a $5 bottle of tranny stop leak12:40
brouschi alsways though that stuff was snakeoil12:40
brouschmy mechanic explained to me how it might actually work for a few months12:44
brouschA rubber bushing was down deep in the tranny is worn. The snakeoil swells the bushing so it seals again. It should work until it wears farther.12:49
brouschyeah, now we can at least have both cars while we shop for a new one12:51
rick_hman, now I'll have to start thinking nice things about dreamhost: http://blog.doughellmann.com/2012/02/moving-to-dreamhost.html13:08
brouschfinally someone who can get them off of py2.513:10
rick_hheh, I guess this next version of django will be the last to support 2.513:10
rick_hso I think that'll prod a lot of people to finally move if you can't run django13:11
brouschi don't think 1.4 will support 2.513:11
brouschso i think the current version is the last13:12
brouschnope, you're right13:13
brouschdjango 1.4 will support python 2.513:13
rick_hyea, I was following hte conversation on twitter over the weekend13:14
brouschGAE finally bumped up to 2.713:14
snap-lNice to see Doug Hellman moving to Dreamhost14:02
rick_hyea, interesting14:02
brouschuse my referral code if you join up!14:16
snap-lI'm not that crazy. :)14:18
brouschnot crazy enough to use my code, or not crazy enough to use dreamhost?14:22
snap-lthe latter14:26
brouschwow. just wow http://debbiespenditnow.com/14:37
snap-lWhat was the point of that?14:38
brouschthe whole page is wow14:38
brouschi can't believe it's not a spoof site14:40
snap-lOK Pythonistas: what's the best way to use a sqlalchemy model between tests? Test Suite?14:55
snap-lUsing nosetests to run the whole shebang, but want to set up the models and test them first before testing other code14:55
snap-lHm, maybe fixture will do the trick15:00
rick_hsnap-l: using migrations?15:53
rick_hsnap-l: you're onto one of the great debated topics of testing15:59
rick_hthere's a ton of ways to go and all depends on what you're testing15:59
snap-lYeah, I think I'm just going to repeat myself16:00
rick_hrepeat yourself?16:00
snap-lwas going to see if I could re-use the code that I'm using to test the models to test the mailing16:01
snap-lsince the mailing piece uses the same database as the model test16:01
rick_hwell ideally you'd feed the mailing tests non-model bits16:01
rick_hthat doesn't need to touch a database16:01
rick_hideally your mailing code is taking as a parameter a list of objects that you can just send fakes in16:01
rick_hand not talking to the db directly16:02
snap-lThe mailing bits read from the database, though.16:02
rick_hboooo :P16:02
snap-lWhat started off as a nice little script is turning into a refactoring mess16:02
rick_halways always write a wrapper api over the sqlalchemy code16:03
snap-ljust so it can be tested16:03
rick_hwell, you'll be glad for it later16:03
snap-lYeah, thanks doc.16:03
rick_hgo ask john how easy that staples crap was16:03
rick_hugh, /me grumbles some more on that16:03
snap-lSo, waitaminute16:04
rick_hsnap-l: it's the old case for the Mgr class stuff you see in bookie we chatted about before16:04
rick_hit's easy to mock that out for tests16:04
snap-lthe correct way to test something like this is to mock out the database? WOuldn't it be easier to load fake data into sqlite's memory database and test that?16:04
rick_hthat's one way, but fragile16:05
rick_hthe *right* way is to mock the database object you send to the mail code16:05
snap-lJesus, python people are strange. ;)16:05
rick_hso you've got an object that you're mailing "MailUsers" that has things on it like name, age, etc16:05
rick_hthen you'd mock outa  MailUsers object, set ame, age values, and then pass it to the email code16:06
rick_hso don't think of it as mocking the database, but mocking the result set or returned value16:06
snap-lExcept the e-mail code will be mocked out so it doesn't send anything to anyone16:06
snap-lThis mockery will not stand!16:06
rick_hwell that's only the last smtp part16:06
rick_hyou're not going to mock out the building of the email object, checking headers set right, checking titles are formatted correctly, etc16:06
snap-lNo, just the last piece16:07
snap-l"sending out the mail"16:07
rick_hit's another case of hard without seeing the code16:07
rick_hbut right, you want to test only the part of code that's under test16:07
rick_hyou don't want things like models breaking your email test16:07
rick_hthat's why what you're trying to do is bad16:07
rick_h"how can I test my models before I test other code that's going to use those..."16:07
rick_hsign of fail16:07
* snap-l mutters something about regexes and two problems.16:08
* snap-l mutters something else about mocking objects and two problems.16:08
rick_hwell but that's why it's done a ton of ways16:10
rick_hsome people do sqlite in memory dbs16:10
rick_hsome people have dbs with known start data16:10
rick_hbut eventually maintaining those gets hairy16:10
rick_hand if you're not deploying to sqlite...well now how do you run tests against mysql,e tc16:11
snap-lYou use sqlalchemy and abstract away the database like a good developer. ;)16:11
rick_hright, but in Bookie code I've got queries, built with sqlalchemy, that failed in pgsql but passed sqlite16:12
rick_hit's not 100%16:12
rick_hsee anything datetime related16:12
rick_hor boolean16:12
brouschinteresting. i think i would use a sqlite DB too16:13
brouschbut i'm as leet as the fungus under rick_h's pinky toenail16:13
rick_hthere's all kinds of ways, there's just keeping things in the sqlalchemy session and never committing16:14
rick_hbasically you start a session, do work, test, rollback16:14
rick_hthere's fake dbs, there's mocking out things, there's full production dbs that you run tests against16:14
rick_hanyway, the most *right* solution, but a pita as well is to make sure your appliaction code uses generic "objects" and those generic objects are a layer that talks to the db/orm so that you've got a middle layer to split along, mock, and test.16:17
rick_hit also makes things like changing ORMs and such much much easier and refactoring nicer16:17
brouschchanging orms?16:18
snap-lI already chose the One True ORM, and now you're talking about changing it?16:18
snap-lthat's it, I'm moving back to Perl16:18
snap-lAt least there we had one true database interface. DBI and DBD, and may God have mercy on your SQL16:19
rick_hwell I'm generalizing, this is true of any time you use a library16:19
snap-lrick_h: I know16:19
rick_hyou want to make sure you wrap it or can wrap any future thing of it so that you can swap it out16:19
rick_hapis all the way down16:19
snap-lI just wonder how far down the rabbit hole you can go before your in a maze of API calls, all alike.16:20
brouschthis is a neat concept http://hairysun.com/books/decorators/16:20
snap-lWhile a Cheshire Cat mocks you out of existence.16:20
rick_hjust keep it in mind. I think it's the kind of thing you have to find and get the voila moment with16:21
snap-lbrousch: Sheesh, that book image is taking forever to load16:21
snap-lToo bad it's kindle only16:22
rick_hbwuhahahaha :P16:22
rick_hit's the store/billing16:22
brouschd00d put the kindle app on your nook16:22
snap-ld000000d haven't rooted the nook yet.16:22
snap-lWell, considering the lame-ass apps that the Nook has in their store, it may get rooted sooner than later16:23
brouschanyways, it's not the book itself that's awesome, it's the concept of a small book targeting a specific thing. like a chapter from a giant python book16:23
snap-lhttp://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/NOOK-Apps/379003212 <- Look and weep16:24
rick_hyea, the kindle singles and such16:24
rick_hit's the thing rage these days, self publish, etc16:24
brouschso you can publish a cheap, small book on a topic you know well without worrying about all the other crap that usually goes with a programming book16:24
snap-lPDF, epub or go home.16:26
brouschi wonder if you bought the kindle book if he'd send you a PDF16:27
snap-lNot sure16:28
snap-lShould I ignite the fires of nerd-ragery?16:28
brouschyou could just ask without starting a flamefest16:29
brouschthen, if denied, turn on the flamethrower16:29
snap-lIt only has two speeds: off, and immolation16:29
snap-land no safety16:30
Wolfgersnap-l: welcome back to Perl? ;-)16:59
Wolfgeralso, mobi or gtfo17:00
snap-lWolfger: Those must be some good drugs. :)17:00
snap-l.mobi is a terrible format17:00
WolfgerIt works on my Kindle, therefore it is awesome.17:01
* Wolfger honestly hasn't compared any of the formats in any meaningful way17:02
snap-lIf Amazon wasn't the owner of .mobi, I think they would be using ePub17:02
rick_hI'm a kindle lover and I hate mobi and want epub17:02
snap-lWhich would you rather write a filter for? :)17:03
snap-lThe only problem with ePub is it is a bit of a pain to get it right on multiple devices.17:04
rick_hit's html, welcome to the web17:05
snap-lYeah, that's what I was going to say; it's kinda like 1995 era HTML17:05
snap-lAnd of course it's Adobe, so it has it's own little quirks17:05
rick_hepub3 to save the day...maybe...hopefully17:06
snap-lDon't bet on it. epub3 has some wonkiness associated with it as well17:06
rick_hyea, but less 1995 html17:06
snap-l1998-2000 HTML. ;)17:07
snap-lI love how one of the features of epub3 is "font obfuscation"17:12
snap-lDamn typography idiots17:13
snap-lbut I guess that's the concession they need to make to get embeddable fonts in the standard.17:13
brouschscrew fonts. let me use my own font18:14
greg-gbut then it won't look exactly how the designer wanted it to18:19
rick_hheh, yea I like the option18:20
rick_hpeople make bad decisions to express themselves and be artistic18:20
brouschit will never look how they want because it's the same ePub on an android phone as on a 30" monitor18:24
greg-gwell, not if you do special CSS (or whatever the equiv is on epub3, I assume CSS?)18:30
greg-glike those blogs that have 1-5 columns depending on how wide your browser window is18:31
rick_hresponsive design wheeee18:31
brouschwell if it's as snap-l described, then that won't come about for another decade or so18:34
greg-gI didn't real all the scrollback, so you can safely ignore my uninformed comments ;)18:35
rick_hgreg-g: just discussion epub vs mobi and how epub is htmly but old htmly18:36
snap-lWEll, epub3 is supposed to be more html5y18:47
Wolfgerwell then they should call it epub5, since we all know version numbers are arbitrary bs anyhow18:49
rick_hyea, well fancy video/audio and input elements/interactive stuff18:52
brouschwhy not just use html?18:59
snap-lIt kind of is underneath19:00
rick_hbecause that wouldn't work :P19:00
snap-lbut there's some packaging to make it work (chapters, table of contents, etc)19:00
snap-lHead to gutenberg and download an epub file and run "unzip" on it19:00
snap-lit's pretty illuminating how it's put together19:01
snap-lkind of like .ODF files19:01

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