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| bhaskar | hi everyone | 08:09 |
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| Grillmeister | check | 11:26 |
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| fagan | me | 14:00 |
| fagan | damn sorry :) | 14:00 |
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| teelepel | Mark in 30? | 14:32 |
| soubuntu | Yes | 14:32 |
| teelepel | awesome | 14:33 |
| teelepel | didnt know about ubuntu classroom till the tweet came from castrojo | 14:33 |
| juancarlospaco | test | 14:35 |
| fagan | you guys will be muted when the session starts go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat to talk | 14:36 |
| fagan | (and ask questions since thats the great thing about open week) | 14:36 |
| teelepel | thx | 14:36 |
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| fcuk112 | hi | 14:41 |
| andybleaden | hi from the uk | 14:42 |
| fcuk112 | i'm from uk too | 14:42 |
| fagan | fcuk112, andybleaden hey this channel gets muted when the session starts so if you move over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can talk there and ask questions | 14:43 |
| andybleaden | will do | 14:43 |
| Jarige | I heard Mark will be answering questions here, will that remain here or in the other room? | 14:44 |
| andybleaden | I was just testing this was working as I am at work behind huge firewall | 14:44 |
| andybleaden | Jarige Here | 14:44 |
| Jarige | k | 14:45 |
| Jarige | ty | 14:45 |
| Jarige | never actually used IRC much, using it with Empathy right now | 14:45 |
| Jarige | still figuring out stuff | 14:45 |
| Milos_SD | answers will be here, but we ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, right? | 14:45 |
| fagan | Milos_SD: yep | 14:46 |
| jcastro | 12 minute warning! | 14:48 |
| fagan | So everyone over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat for cookies | 14:49 |
| alket | hey :D | 14:52 |
| teelepel | cortexuvula hoe lank is jy al op Ubuntu? | 14:54 |
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| fagan | #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat and questions | 14:56 |
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| BluesKaj | Hiyas | 14:57 |
| jcastro | Just a few more minutes until we begin | 14:58 |
| riktking | :D | 14:58 |
| * popey cuddles jcastro | 14:59 | |
| jcastro | Ok remember folks | 14:59 |
| jcastro | to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | 14:59 |
| jcastro | and preface them with QUESTION: so the bot can pick it up | 15:00 |
| UbuntuBhoy | can I pop one out now | 15:00 |
| UbuntuBhoy | question that is | 15:00 |
| jcastro | not really, he's not even here yet | 15:01 |
| teelepel | lol | 15:01 |
| jcastro | We'll just wait a few moments for the late stragglers | 15:02 |
| ogra_ | like the main person yopu mean ? :) | 15:02 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl | ||
| jcastro | Heh | 15:02 |
| jcastro | He'll be around | 15:02 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 15:02 |
| sabdfl | hello all! | 15:03 |
| jcastro | ok | 15:03 |
| jcastro | before we start let me give everyone some tips | 15:03 |
| jcastro | a) Try to ask something answerable, it's easier than asking questions that are hypothetical | 15:03 |
| jcastro | b) I'll skip questions that are easily googleable so that people with good questions don't get lost | 15:04 |
| jcastro | Ok sabdfl, introduce yourself and I'll start when you're ready! | 15:04 |
| sabdfl | i wholeheartedly agree with (a) :-) | 15:04 |
| sabdfl | i'm Mark Shuttleworth, and happy to answer any and all questions | 15:04 |
| sabdfl | especially answerable ones :-) | 15:05 |
| sabdfl | fire away! | 15:05 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Why did you decide to make Ubuntu less customisable (in terms of how it looks, not the lenses, those are great)? | 15:05 |
| sabdfl | I think you mean Unity, rather than Ubuntu | 15:05 |
| sabdfl | Ubuntu itself is a superset, has a great deal of customizeability | 15:05 |
| sabdfl | and many faces - Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Lubuntu etc | 15:05 |
| sabdfl | with many options across all of them | 15:06 |
| sabdfl | in Unity, we have a very tight set of options | 15:06 |
| sabdfl | part of that is because it's a 1.0, and we wanted to focus on the things people will most enjoy, and most need | 15:06 |
| sabdfl | part of that is because we know every option has a high cost, and not every option is equally used | 15:06 |
| sabdfl | we also know that the best people to discuss options with are often in a good position to implement them | 15:07 |
| sabdfl | it's cheap for someone to show up and demand an option, but often they don't stick around for the prototyping, evaluation, discussion, implementation, maintenance | 15:07 |
| sabdfl | and we have to stick around :-) | 15:07 |
| sabdfl | as a general meme in design, options are much more expensive than people realise | 15:07 |
| sabdfl | each option divides the userbase into people who perhaps cannot talk to each other on the phone to help each other through an experience | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | because they see and do different things | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | as a developer, you have a LOT of options, some of which involve gconf or dconf or ccsm or patching the code | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | as an end-user, you are dependent on developers decisions | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | so, we prioritise the needs of the people for whom we can make the biggest difference | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | i respect there are other approaches | 15:08 |
| sabdfl | but i think it's also reasonable to expect respect for the position we take | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | we certainly have a good and growing community that appreciates those positions | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | and we'll work with them to make unity even better | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | not always by adding options, but by testing and deciding what works best | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | it's also a fallacy that "clever developers need options" | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | they need robust, usable software just like everyone else | 15:09 |
| sabdfl | so Unity is as much for developers as end-users | 15:10 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:10 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Are you statisfied with Unity in the recent Ubuntu version ? | 15:10 |
| sabdfl | yes, though i recognise there are issues, and i would not be satisfied unless we fixed many of them in 11.10 | 15:10 |
| sabdfl | in the end, when we reviewed bug lists, stability and experience, Unity was the best option for the average user upgrading or installing | 15:10 |
| sabdfl | there are LOTS of people for whom it isn't the best | 15:11 |
| sabdfl | but we had to choose a default position | 15:11 |
| sabdfl | i think we walked that line admirably, i appreciated the open discussion that was had, and it made me more confident in the final position | 15:11 |
| sabdfl | that decision is best taken by the desktop team, and they were arguing in favour of unity, and they had my support for that | 15:11 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:11 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: will lubuntu become official? | 15:12 |
| sabdfl | i would like it to, yes | 15:12 |
| sabdfl | i think the lubuntu team have done excellent work to make sure that it's possible - integrating their processes and output into the main archive | 15:12 |
| sabdfl | there's a thread on the TB list and I'm behind on mail, we're waiting iirc for comment on tools, like iso testing | 15:12 |
| sabdfl | from an experience and governance point of view, Lubuntu meets my personal requirements | 15:13 |
| sabdfl | it has solid leaders, a good track record of delivery, and works in the spirit of Ubuntu | 15:13 |
| sabdfl | we need to know if there are costs or work to be done on the tools front, but I expect they are manageable | 15:13 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:13 |
| jcastro | Question: When will we see the beautiful Ubuntu monospace font? | 15:13 |
| sabdfl | this cycle, is my estimate | 15:13 |
| sabdfl | ask sladen! | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | but we've given a final view on the basic mono cell structure, now it's design and engineering, and much of the design is done | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | the engineering is hinting etc | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | we don't need that for getting it public, so i think there will be a beta soon | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | paul sladen will have more details | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:14 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: what is ubuntu doing to match rolling release model updates (like arch) | 15:14 |
| sabdfl | i think rolling releases are a very interesting concept | 15:15 |
| sabdfl | we should discuss this at UDS next week | 15:15 |
| sabdfl | I know a few distros are embracing the concept | 15:15 |
| sabdfl | and perhaps it would be appropriate for us too | 15:15 |
| sabdfl | but i don't have a view, and would be interested to hear opinions, especially the TB | 15:15 |
| sabdfl | perhaps that will become a standard approach in future for all distros? I would not want us to be behind :-) | 15:16 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:16 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Hi Mark. How much of a threat is the recent Google patent infringement suit to Canonical, Ubuntu and Linux in general? | 15:16 |
| jcastro | http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/21/google-ordered-to-pay-5-million-in-linux-patent-infringement-su/ | 15:16 |
| sabdfl | interesting question | 15:16 |
| sabdfl | just to clarify - it's not Google that's filing suit, it's another company suing big users of Linux | 15:16 |
| sabdfl | the case has the hallmarks of a quick-and-dirty job, it was filed in a jurisdiction that very typically finds for patent plaintiffs without necessarily really understanding the issues | 15:17 |
| sabdfl | there appear to be some obvious inconsistencies and problems in the suit, which will get addressed in appeal | 15:17 |
| sabdfl | and there are related suits, which may undermine the basis of that suit at all | 15:17 |
| sabdfl | patents are a steaming mess that stifle innovation, rather than supporting it | 15:17 |
| sabdfl | and in order to change the system, we need mainstream recognition of that | 15:18 |
| sabdfl | right not, major tech companies all play both sides of this | 15:18 |
| sabdfl | and they have enough patents in their armories to get by that way | 15:18 |
| sabdfl | but it's getting crazy even for them | 15:18 |
| sabdfl | this is one reason why I prefer GPLv3 to v2, it has a nice "calming the waters" effect on patents | 15:18 |
| sabdfl | which I think few people have really understood | 15:19 |
| sabdfl | when this really gets crazy, the majors will be pushing FOR v3, not against it :-) | 15:19 |
| sabdfl | anyhow, I'm not worried about this particular judgment | 15:19 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:19 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Is the windicators idea completely forgotten? What happened with that? | 15:19 |
| sabdfl | patches welcome. i think it is needed to fill out the vision, but it's also not critical for *right now* so it's always just fallen off the list for the core team | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | now we have a growing team of contributors to Unity, perhaps this will get taken on | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | it should be really straightforward! | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:20 |
| jcastro | Question: Hi Mark The pace of change in Ubuntu seems to be getting faster and faster in adopting new ideas and themes. Do you have a future target date to ease up. Or onward ever onward? | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | well, part of the reason to embrace hard change now was to allow the 12.04 LTS cycle to be more polish and refinement than big-change | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | beyond that, onward ever upward | 15:20 |
| sabdfl | we've always tried to make small improvements where we can | 15:21 |
| sabdfl | not always successfully or brilliantly | 15:21 |
| sabdfl | but you learn a lot about software if you get all the bug reports, and we certainly are in that position | 15:21 |
| sabdfl | so it's in my view frustrating for people to argue that Ubuntu is in no position to contribute to the user experience, and that work should "all be done upstream" | 15:21 |
| sabdfl | upstream often doesn't want to slog through the bug reports :-) | 15:22 |
| sabdfl | what's changing, is that we're growing our capacity in Ubuntu (and in Canonical) to build credible views on the sorts of changes we think may help, and to implement them | 15:22 |
| sabdfl | and as a result, the number and scope of those changes is definitely increasing | 15:22 |
| sabdfl | i don't think that's a change in policy, just a change in capacity | 15:22 |
| sabdfl | but i recognise it's caught people off guard, as that's crossed a threshold of publicity | 15:23 |
| sabdfl | not everything we do will turn out to be perfect | 15:23 |
| sabdfl | but as I said, we're in the position that we see, daily, how people actually use and enjoy (or not) the software | 15:23 |
| sabdfl | so we're in a credible position to participate | 15:23 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:23 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: How does Ubuntu plan to take advantage of the new offerings of GNOME3, in terms of new approaches or new User Experience. Unity was huge, and that was before GNOME3. What potential improvements are waiting on GNOME3? | 15:23 |
| sabdfl | i'm looking forward ot having all of GNOME3 in Ubuntu | 15:24 |
| sabdfl | and I think we'll achieve that in Oneiric | 15:24 |
| sabdfl | it's certainly a hot topic on the agenda for UDS next week | 15:24 |
| sabdfl | I also think there continue to be lots of areas of collaboration between work done in GNOME, and Unity, and elsewhere | 15:24 |
| sabdfl | our default position is to try and make that happen | 15:24 |
| sabdfl | but also to be willing to go in the direction we think will give end users the best experience, based on evidence | 15:25 |
| sabdfl | you will certainly be able to have a close-to-vanilla GNOME3 experience in 11.10, and the deltas will be for good reason | 15:25 |
| sabdfl | contrary to popular belief, even distros that claim to be vanilla, often carry a lot of patches | 15:26 |
| sabdfl | so i feel that gnome-in-ubuntu will be faithfully conveyed | 15:26 |
| sabdfl | and there's a great part of the Ubuntu community that cares about that and is invested in making it happen | 15:26 |
| sabdfl | that's why we have a GNOME3 PPA today | 15:26 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:26 |
| jcastro | QUESTION : What is the criteria for choosing the default applications in ubuntu? | 15:26 |
| sabdfl | i think i blogged about this when talking about bringing Qt in as a toolkit | 15:27 |
| === me is now known as Guest48089 | ||
| sabdfl | maybe someone can dig up that URL? | 15:27 |
| sabdfl | in there are the criteria I think matter: user experience, and consistency are both on the list | 15:27 |
| sabdfl | relationship to Ubuntu and the rest of the apps in Ubuntu-by-default matter too | 15:27 |
| jcastro | http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/568 | 15:27 |
| sabdfl | because we can always do the best work where we have the best relationships | 15:28 |
| sabdfl | collaboration is so much easier | 15:28 |
| sabdfl | at the end of the day, we want anyone who chooses Ubuntu to feel they got the best experience as a result | 15:28 |
| sabdfl | this is a very, very tough process every UDS | 15:28 |
| sabdfl | I don't always agree with the result | 15:28 |
| sabdfl | but I respect the process the desktop team (and Kubuntu team and server team) run to make those decisions | 15:29 |
| sabdfl | and i feel good that pretty much every other option is just an apt-get away | 15:29 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:29 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: how difficult will it be to get overlay scrollbars in 100% of the applications? right now, the implementation seems to be pretty spotty. any guestimation on what release will see overlay scrollbars in all applications? | 15:29 |
| sabdfl | this depends on two things: broadening the overlay-scrollbar API, and hooking it into more toolkits | 15:30 |
| sabdfl | we're seeing progress on both fronts | 15:30 |
| sabdfl | part of the rationale for pressing GO in 11.04 was to make the gaps obvious to the audience of developers who can help close them | 15:30 |
| sabdfl | Cimi has already had quite a few emails from developers asking how they can make the scrollbars work in their apps | 15:30 |
| sabdfl | so i think it will see active development | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | i was surprised that we got Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice working with the global menu in 11.04 | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | it all came together because folk stepped up | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | same is true of scrollbars | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | so, help wanted and welcome | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:31 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Do you believe in abstract nicks Mark? | 15:31 |
| sabdfl | it's not something i question on a daily basis :-) | 15:32 |
| === same is now known as sergioam | ||
| sabdfl | within Canonical, I'm in the "you should pick a nick you like, not FirstnameLastname" camp | 15:32 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:32 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: What are your feelings about the growing number of indicators in the top panel? | 15:32 |
| sabdfl | i spent a lot of time studying screenshots of people's desktops | 15:32 |
| sabdfl | i asked folk to send them to me | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | and some media picked up on that | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | so i got thousands! | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | they were very interesting | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | people put a LOT of stuff in their panel | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | and partly, the fact that people can do that is something they love | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | so we have to find a balance | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | we want the panel to be crisp and clean and useful | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | which implies fewer icons, and less use of colour, and more MEANINGFUL use of colour | 15:33 |
| sabdfl | you should be able to glance at the panel and quickly see if there's something which needs your attention | 15:34 |
| sabdfl | once you can do that, you resent having to stare at it to understand it | 15:34 |
| sabdfl | so we have category indicators, and will make more of the system indicators into category indicators, to encourage individual tools and apps to fit inside them | 15:34 |
| sabdfl | thus reducing the number of icons and improving people's ability to understand roughly what's going on in their system | 15:35 |
| sabdfl | but | 15:35 |
| sabdfl | if an app or tool really doesn't fit in a category, it's fine for it to be alone on the panel | 15:35 |
| sabdfl | as an appindicator | 15:35 |
| sabdfl | i don't think that's cool, if it's just "to have my icon on the panel" | 15:35 |
| sabdfl | because users most often have no idea what "all those icons" are for, and adding to the problem is not cool! | 15:36 |
| sabdfl | so if there's a category that works, it should be used | 15:36 |
| sabdfl | if there really isn't, use an appindicator | 15:36 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:36 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Are there any plans for more mainstream Ubuntu preinstalls from big name vendors? Currently, I believe only HP and Dell offer a small selection of Ubuntu laptops. | 15:36 |
| sabdfl | i would not be here today if I didn't think we could get to a world where all the vendors sell free software based machines with Ubuntu on 'em | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | so yes, there are plans, and credible expectations | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:37 |
| jcastro | Question: Will 11.10 cross the limit of 1 CD release? | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | it's a very good discipline, so no | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:37 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Hi Mr. Mark, When can we see WAYLAND in UBUNTU. | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | i think you mean "when will it be the default display system" | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | and the answer is "green" | 15:37 |
| sabdfl | i think wayland is the most likely basis for future displays across most linux devices | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | i think it will take the longest of all to get that on the desktop | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | or something like that | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | before that, it will happen in particular form factors and devices | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | maybe a specialised netbook here or there | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | or ARM smartbook | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:38 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Will there be mainstream advertising, such as commercials, billboards, etc. in Ubuntu's future? | 15:38 |
| sabdfl | possibly, though it's not likely to be the most effective way to reach consumers for us, for a long time | 15:39 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:39 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: When oh when can I get my ARM laptop running Ubuntu with an everlasting battery playing HD content? | 15:39 |
| sabdfl | the everlasting bit is tricky | 15:39 |
| sabdfl | but "all day long", within 12 months imo | 15:39 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:39 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: what was being in space like? | 15:40 |
| jcastro | (haven't had a space question in a few years!) | 15:40 |
| sabdfl | magical | 15:40 |
| sabdfl | really magical | 15:40 |
| sabdfl | and one of my crew mates is waiting in Florida for them to fix the shuttle so he can fly again, lucky guy | 15:40 |
| sabdfl | i was in Russia for the 50th anniversary of Gagarin's flight | 15:40 |
| sabdfl | it was amazing - and i think with hindsight, the friendships i made in the experience were the best bit | 15:41 |
| sabdfl | though i would love to fly again, perhaps further | 15:41 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:41 |
| jcastro | A question from Jason De Rose, one of the upstreams to the Novacut editor: | 15:41 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: any thoughts on how best to push for high quality *open* GPU/APU drivers? are hardware manufactures warming up? for certain workloads (like video editing), the GPU has become extremely important... any advice how, say, a startup developing a video editor could start a productive dialog with hardware mfrs? | 15:41 |
| sabdfl | the main thing, i believe, is to have the vendors REALLY care about Linux | 15:41 |
| sabdfl | once that's true, they become more and more susceptible to doing things the linux-friendly way, which is always as open source | 15:41 |
| sabdfl | if it's a small part of their concerns, they try to find the easiest / cheapest way to check the box | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | even that might not be easy or cheap | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | so i'm grateful that, broadly speaking, ATI, nVidia and Intel all take Linux seriously | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | we should not take that for granted | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | i'm embarrassed when I see a rant attacking ATI or nVidia for not just doing what "the community wants" | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | that's not how life goes, in my experience | 15:42 |
| sabdfl | we need to be more relevant, in more markets | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | that's why we focus on user experience, so we can have end-users demanding Ubuntu, so in turn we can move up the charts in the hardware vendors minds | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:43 |
| jcastro | QUESTION : for all this development of ubuntu you need lots of people, in what area would yo usay you have plenty and where do you really need more involvement? | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | wow | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | i think we need more involvement in core apps | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | to raise the quality of experience | 15:43 |
| sabdfl | we've been focusing on Unity, because that's the starting point | 15:44 |
| sabdfl | but libreoffice, firefox, evolution, thunderbird, and many more all need love! | 15:44 |
| === Donna is now known as Guest59476 | ||
| sabdfl | next | 15:44 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: is Ubuntu profitable yet? If not, any ideas on when it will be? | 15:44 |
| sabdfl | no, and while we have projections which are grounds for confidence, there are also reasons to continue to push the investment faster than it would grow organically | 15:45 |
| sabdfl | next | 15:45 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: do u prefer iphone or android? | 15:45 |
| sabdfl | iphone! | 15:45 |
| sabdfl | next | 15:45 |
| jcastro | Saamm: Ubuntu Mono font. It's currently in design steps needed for moving to beta for the beta team, or more generally (unhinted). If that's all good it can be hinted for final release on http://font.ubuntu.com/ Webfonts and Ubuntu 11.10 this cycle. | 15:45 |
| jcastro | For those wondering (from Paul Sladen) | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | awesome, thanks jcastro, sladen | 15:46 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Will we ever get some concrete numbers of numbers of deployed Ubuntu desktops? (aside from the hard to track ones) | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | i don't think we could get this even if we added some sort of registration | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | and if we added registration, lots of users would have reservations | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | so it's unknowable, and trying too hard to know would hurt! | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | i think it's many, many millions | 15:46 |
| sabdfl | we can see for example, in wikimedia's browser stats | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | it's still only a tiny start on the world of computing | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | but i think we will make a much bigger dent in time | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:47 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Will Indicator API improved this cycle like missing tool tips and many other things? | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | the absence of tooltips is a design decision, not an API issue | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | iirc, the content for the tooltips is actually passed in the API | 15:47 |
| sabdfl | but we don't display it | 15:48 |
| sabdfl | the reasons are that more often than not, tooltips end up being more harmful than helpful | 15:48 |
| sabdfl | if you read code which has lots of tooltips, you'll see | 15:48 |
| sabdfl | most of them are unneeded | 15:48 |
| sabdfl | often that are flat out wrong | 15:48 |
| sabdfl | and it's almost impossible to make them look stylish | 15:49 |
| sabdfl | so, it's better to say to developers "put more time into the design of your *visible* UI, rather than trying to paper over it with *invisible* tooltips | 15:49 |
| sabdfl | i understand that's a surprising position to some | 15:49 |
| sabdfl | but it's backed up by real research and experience | 15:49 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:49 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: What work is being done to make inclusion in USC for 3rd party devs as "easy" (read: well documented) as Android / Apple marketplaces? | 15:49 |
| sabdfl | this is MPT's area of expertise, with the app review board process and various tools being setup to support it | 15:50 |
| sabdfl | i'm not up to speed, but perhaps he can be persuaded to shed some light | 15:50 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:50 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Will the Unity 2D launcher get transperant <---- this might be a good time just to explain what you want to see in 2d for 11.10 | 15:50 |
| sabdfl | i think the need for 2D is to support chips which don't do 3D | 15:51 |
| jcastro | (and/or give us any tidbits/juicy news on what you want to do for 11.10, as we're running short on time now) | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | and typically, they also do not do compositing | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | which is the transparency bit | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | so, I don't think so | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | but I may be wrong | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | i'm really impressed with the unity-2d work | 15:51 |
| sabdfl | if I'd known it would come together so well, we could have planned to get it into 11.04 | 15:52 |
| sabdfl | kudos to the folk who lead it, and the community that's growing up around Unity | 15:52 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:52 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: ConnMan will replace network-manager-applet on 11.10? | 15:52 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 15:52 |
| sabdfl | this falls into the "I don't have unilateral say on app selection" question, I think | 15:52 |
| sabdfl | I believe ConnMan has some really important capabilities | 15:53 |
| sabdfl | and we should give it serious consideration | 15:53 |
| sabdfl | we would be the first to deploy it very widely, which means the first to run into lots of issues | 15:53 |
| sabdfl | Google are adopting a (fork/branch) of it for Chrome OS | 15:53 |
| sabdfl | but it's not ready YET, imo, to be the default | 15:53 |
| sabdfl | I'd like it to be parallel installable easily, perhaps we can get there for 11.10 | 15:54 |
| sabdfl | help wanted! | 15:54 |
| sabdfl | next | 15:54 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: Have there been any Unity design decisions that you think will be revisited now that users have had a chance to use it and respond? | 15:54 |
| sabdfl | oh yes | 15:54 |
| sabdfl | there's lots to learn, that can only be learned in reasonable time by getting code into a wide deployment | 15:54 |
| sabdfl | some decisions I regret and we'll evaluate alternatives, some we'll tweak | 15:55 |
| sabdfl | it's by no means perfect, and it would be egotistical to suggest otherwise | 15:55 |
| sabdfl | so everything is on the cards | 15:55 |
| sabdfl | that said, i think the bulk of it has worked out fantastically | 15:55 |
| sabdfl | both at an engineering level (compiz, nux) and in the user experience | 15:55 |
| sabdfl | i'm proud of the guts required by quite a few people to commit to delivery, and the effort that went into it, and the support we've had from so many | 15:56 |
| sabdfl | it's reassuring that others are following the broad design | 15:56 |
| sabdfl | and we'll work out the details in round two :-) | 15:56 |
| sabdfl | next! | 15:56 |
| jcastro | QUESTION: With the benefit of hindsight, if you could change one thing about Ubuntu since its inception, what would it be? | 15:56 |
| jcastro | last one! | 15:56 |
| sabdfl | great question | 15:56 |
| sabdfl | of course, we can change anything, so this is not a meaningless question | 15:57 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 15:57 |
| sabdfl | i think i would have been clearer about the need for us to have the capacity to implement change | 15:57 |
| sabdfl | i think if we'd done that from the start, some things would be easier | 15:57 |
| sabdfl | people would have made fewer accusations of "not contributing", because those who only measure that kind of contribution would have been able to see them from the start | 15:58 |
| sabdfl | on the other hand, we would have established our willingness and ability to lead as well as follow at the start, which would feel like less of a change now | 15:58 |
| sabdfl | and perhaps, folk would have been more willing to be collaborative, if that capacity had started before Ubuntu became such a substantial player | 15:59 |
| sabdfl | i fear that, today, many of these conversations are hugely influenced by competitive dynamics | 15:59 |
| sabdfl | probably, both ways | 15:59 |
| sabdfl | nevertheless, here we are | 15:59 |
| jcastro | Awesome, well thanks for stopping by and answering user questions, I'm sure we'll have plenty of things for next time to talk about 11.10. | 16:00 |
| sabdfl | we have an *amazing* community, which I think reflects the combination of values, governance and willingness to get the work done efficiently | 16:00 |
| sabdfl | people want to participate in a place where their contribution will have the biggest impact on the most people | 16:00 |
| sabdfl | and i think Ubuntu is one such place | 16:00 |
| sabdfl | thank you! | 16:00 |
| jcastro | Thanks everyone for contributing questions to this session, now we move on to doctormo, thanks sabdfl! | 16:00 |
| sabdfl | thanks jorge for the stewardship of the classroom :-)_ | 16:00 |
| popey | 16:01:16 [freenode] -!- idle : 0 days 10 hours 31 mins 45 secs [signon: Wed Apr 13 07:18:22 2011] | 16:01 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Making a Poster to Spread Ubuntu - Instructors: doctormo | ||
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 16:02 |
| jcastro | ok let's give doctormo a few minutes ... | 16:03 |
| jcastro | smoke if you got em | 16:03 |
| === plustwo is now known as plustwo_ | ||
| jcastro | ok the instructor is missing, so if we shows up we'll do a partial session, if not we'll just continue at the top of the hour | 16:07 |
| jcastro | sorry about the inconvenience! | 16:07 |
| === budgee is now known as mbali_ntuli | ||
| === mbali_ntuli is now known as budgee | ||
| doctormo | Hey everyone | 16:46 |
| doctormo | Sorry for the delay, if you're still here for the making posters class. Then worry not. I put everything into a video: http://blip.tv/file/5101599 | 16:47 |
| doctormo | Watch it at your own leisure and feel free to email, irc message me if you have questions. | 16:47 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:52 |
| doctormo | If you have any questions, ask away now. | 16:52 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:57 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Conquering the Command Line for Beginners - Instructors: mhall119 | ||
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 17:02 |
| mhall119 | Hello everybody | 17:03 |
| mhall119 | welcome to my session on using the command line | 17:04 |
| mhall119 | now, there's a lot of old stereo-types about Linux, that you have to put all kinds of cryptic stuff into the command line to get things done | 17:04 |
| mhall119 | but in Ubuntu, you can do pretty much everything in the GUI with the mouse, and you'll never ever *need* the command line | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | but, power users still use it all the time | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | why? | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | Well, because it's fast | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | it's fun | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | and, believe it or not, it's easy! | 17:05 |
| mhall119 | this session isn't going to make you masters of the command line | 17:06 |
| mhall119 | but it will make you more comfortable with it | 17:06 |
| mhall119 | and show you some of the cool things you can do with just a handful of commands | 17:06 |
| mhall119 | so, to get things started, lets all pull up a terminal | 17:06 |
| mhall119 | if you're using Unity, you can hit Alt-F2 and type "gnome-terminal" | 17:07 |
| mhall119 | you should also be able to it ctrl-alt-T to get a new terminal window | 17:07 |
| mhall119 | if you're on KDE, alt-f2 then "kterm" should do it | 17:07 |
| mhall119 | if you're on anything else, I'll just assume you know how already ;) | 17:07 |
| mhall119 | everybody able to get a terminal window up? | 17:08 |
| === zobbo is now known as zobbo|away | ||
| mhall119 | I'll take your silence to mean that everybody has a terminal open | 17:09 |
| mhall119 | or that nobody is listening | 17:09 |
| mhall119 | either way, we're moving on | 17:09 |
| mhall119 | first off, type "pwd" and hit enter | 17:10 |
| mhall119 | "pwd" stands for "Present Working Directory", and it tells you where you are in the file system | 17:10 |
| mhall119 | sorry, type "pwd" in your terminal, not IRC | 17:10 |
| mhall119 | You can think of the command line as a super file manager, and just like Nautilus (the GUI file manager), you are always "in a directory" | 17:11 |
| mhall119 | so, pwd tells you which directory you're in | 17:11 |
| mhall119 | next, type "ls" and hit enter | 17:11 |
| mhall119 | "ls" stands of "list" and it'll do exactly that, list what's in your current directory | 17:12 |
| mhall119 | so now you know where you are and what's there | 17:12 |
| mhall119 | next, let's get moving | 17:12 |
| mhall119 | "cd" stands for "change directory" | 17:12 |
| mhall119 | type "cd /tmp/" in your terminal and hit enter | 17:12 |
| mhall119 | that will change your current directory to /tmp/ | 17:13 |
| mhall119 | you can verify this by running "pwd" again | 17:13 |
| mhall119 | and you can run "ls" again to see what's in /tmp/ | 17:13 |
| mhall119 | /tmp/ is used by a lot of programs as a place to put "temporary" files | 17:13 |
| mhall119 | we're going to use it for the files we're going to play with | 17:13 |
| mhall119 | everybody in /tmp/? | 17:14 |
| mhall119 | any questions so far? | 17:14 |
| mhall119 | ok, let's make a file | 17:15 |
| mhall119 | ok, run "touch test" | 17:17 |
| mhall119 | "touch" creates a new, empty file, in this case we named it "test" | 17:17 |
| mhall119 | next we're going to make a directoy | 17:17 |
| mhall119 | run "mkdir classroom" | 17:17 |
| mhall119 | "mkdir" as it's name implies, makes a directory, in this case we named it "classroom | 17:18 |
| mhall119 | now let's put our test file into our new directory | 17:18 |
| mhall119 | run "mv test classroom" | 17:18 |
| mhall119 | "mv" means "move", and does exactly that | 17:18 |
| mhall119 | now "cd classroom" to move into that new directory | 17:19 |
| mhall119 | and "ls" to see that "test" is in there | 17:19 |
| mhall119 | now, let's put some content into our test file | 17:19 |
| mhall119 | run: echo "Hello world" > test | 17:20 |
| mhall119 | "echo" just prints out what you pass it, in this case "Hello world" | 17:20 |
| mhall119 | the > is called a redirect, I'll explain what it's doing in a minute | 17:20 |
| mhall119 | but, suffice it to say, that full command puts "Hello world" into our test file | 17:20 |
| mhall119 | you can check that by running "cat test" | 17:21 |
| mhall119 | "cat" will print the contents of a file out for you to see | 17:21 |
| mhall119 | now let's make a copy of our test file | 17:22 |
| mhall119 | run "cp test backup" | 17:22 |
| mhall119 | "cp" stands for copy | 17:22 |
| mhall119 | now if you run "ls", you should see both "test" and "backup" | 17:22 |
| mhall119 | and if you run "cat backup" you should see "Hello world", because that's what was in "test" | 17:22 |
| mhall119 | okay, now that's pretty much the basics of using the command line for file management | 17:23 |
| mhall119 | any questions on that before we get into the fun stuff? | 17:23 |
| ClassBot | kkitano asked: what does cat stand for? | 17:24 |
| mhall119 | "cat" stands for "concatenate" | 17:24 |
| mhall119 | because you can give "cat" multiple files, and it will print their contents one after the other | 17:25 |
| mhall119 | concatenating them | 17:25 |
| mhall119 | try it out by running "cat test backup", and you'll see "Hello world" twice | 17:25 |
| mhall119 | okay, now for the fun stuff | 17:25 |
| mhall119 | one of the most powerful aspects of the Linux command line is the ability to redirect input and output | 17:26 |
| mhall119 | we did that earlier with > | 17:26 |
| mhall119 | > redirects the output from a command and puts it into a file | 17:26 |
| mhall119 | we used it to put the output from "echo" into our file "test" | 17:26 |
| mhall119 | you can also use >>, which will append to the end of a file, instead of replacing all it's existing content | 17:27 |
| mhall119 | < will take input from a file and pass it to a program | 17:27 |
| mhall119 | finally, the "pipe" symbol: | | 17:28 |
| mhall119 | this will redirect input and output between 2 programs, instead of between a program and a file | 17:28 |
| mhall119 | using pipes, you can chain multiple programs together | 17:29 |
| mhall119 | I'm going to introduce some common command line programs, and show you how to do powerful things by joining them together with pipes | 17:30 |
| mhall119 | our first one is "ps", which will give you a list of running processes | 17:30 |
| mhall119 | go ahead and run "ps" | 17:30 |
| mhall119 | is probably won't show much, because the default settings only show what's running on your current terminal | 17:31 |
| mhall119 | to get a list of everything running on your system, we need to pass it some additional "flags", | 17:31 |
| mhall119 | run "ps -ef" and you'll see a whole lot more information | 17:31 |
| mhall119 | don't worry about what it all is right now | 17:32 |
| mhall119 | we're only going to worry about the first 2 columns, which are the username and the process id or PID | 17:32 |
| mhall119 | next is "grep", which is a very powerful text searching tool | 17:34 |
| mhall119 | try "grep 'world' test" | 17:35 |
| mhall119 | and it'll search the contents of our test file for the word "world" | 17:35 |
| mhall119 | now, let's combine them with pipes to do something useful | 17:36 |
| mhall119 | suppose we want to list all the processes that involve "python" | 17:36 |
| mhall119 | just run "ps -ef |grep python" | 17:36 |
| mhall119 | this will get a list of all the processes on your system, and send that list to grep, which will only print out those lines that contain the word "python" | 17:36 |
| mhall119 | any questions about what we just did? | 17:38 |
| mhall119 | okay, moving on to our next command: "find" | 17:39 |
| mhall119 | "find" will give you a list of files in a directory and all it's sub directoryies | 17:39 |
| mhall119 | fun "find /tmp" and you'll see a lot of information go by | 17:40 |
| mhall119 | that's every file under the /tmp directory | 17:40 |
| mhall119 | now let's say we want to see every file under /tmp/ where the word "test" is in the file name, or in the name of one of it's parent directories | 17:41 |
| mhall119 | we can do this by "piping" the output from find into grep again | 17:41 |
| mhall119 | run "find /tmp |grep test" | 17:41 |
| mhall119 | you will probably see more than just out test file, that's okay | 17:42 |
| mhall119 | another useful command is "file" | 17:42 |
| mhall119 | "file" just tells you what kind of file something is | 17:43 |
| mhall119 | run "file test" | 17:43 |
| mhall119 | and it should tell you that it's an ASCII text file | 17:43 |
| mhall119 | it's important to note that, unlike Windows, Linux doesn't need file extensions to know what kind of file something is | 17:44 |
| mhall119 | run "cp test test.png" to make a copy of our text file called "test.png" | 17:44 |
| mhall119 | if this were Windows, it woud think that test.png is an image | 17:45 |
| mhall119 | but if you run "file test.png", it still knows that it's content is only text | 17:45 |
| mhall119 | okay, we don't need to keep this file around, so remove it by running "rm test.png" | 17:45 |
| mhall119 | "rm" obviously, stands for "remove" | 17:45 |
| ClassBot | suprengr90 asked: is it worth mention the location on keyboard of "|" as it doesn't show on the keyboard [exactly] the same? | 17:46 |
| mhall119 | on standard US-en keyboards, it's shift+backslash | 17:48 |
| mhall119 | I'm not sure about other keyboard layouts | 17:48 |
| mhall119 | okay, now for some real fun | 17:49 |
| mhall119 | "xargs" is a very handy program that will take each line that it takes as input, and pass it to another program | 17:49 |
| mhall119 | so, let's say we want to know all the python scripts in /usr/bin | 17:50 |
| mhall119 | since the filenames in /usr/bin don't end with .py, even if they're python files, we can't use find+grep like we did before | 17:51 |
| mhall119 | but, using "xargs" and "file", we can check the content type of each | 17:51 |
| mhall119 | so try running: find /usr/bin |xargs file |grep 'python.*script' | 17:51 |
| mhall119 | let me break that down | 17:51 |
| mhall119 | 1) "find /usr/bin" this will produce a list of all the files in /usr/bin | 17:52 |
| mhall119 | we then pass that list to: | 17:52 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 17:52 |
| mhall119 | 2) "xargs file", this says for every file in the list, run that file through the "file" command | 17:52 |
| mhall119 | this gives us a list of all the files + their content type information | 17:53 |
| mhall119 | which we pass to | 17:53 |
| mhall119 | 3) "grep 'python.*script'" which will filter the output, displaying only those that contain "python" and "script" with any amount of text between them (the .* part) | 17:53 |
| mhall119 | now, take a minute to think about the number of steps and repetition it would take to do the same from the GUI with a mouse | 17:54 |
| mhall119 | alright, a couple final commands before the session is over | 17:55 |
| mhall119 | the "kill" command takes a process ID, like we say using "ps", and forces the process to end | 17:56 |
| mhall119 | be careful with this command | 17:56 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 17:57 |
| mhall119 | but, suppose you wanted to kill all gwibber processes | 17:57 |
| mhall119 | gwibber is the default Ubuntu twitter client | 17:57 |
| mhall119 | we can use "ps -ef |grep gwibber" like we did before to see all the gwibber processes | 17:58 |
| mhall119 | and then run "kill" on each one | 17:58 |
| mhall119 | but that can be tedious | 17:58 |
| mhall119 | instead, let's introduce "awk" | 17:58 |
| mhall119 | awk is a very powerful scripting too, but we're going to use it for something very basic, printing out the 2nd column only from ps | 17:59 |
| mhall119 | the 2nd column is the process id | 17:59 |
| mhall119 | so run: ps -ef |grep gwibber | awk '{print $2}' | 17:59 |
| mhall119 | now you have the process id's for the gwibber processes | 17:59 |
| mhall119 | now we can use xargs again to pass each one to kill | 18:00 |
| mhall119 | (again, don't actually try this) | 18:00 |
| mhall119 | ps -ef |grep gwibber |awk '{print $2}'|xargs kill | 18:01 |
| mhall119 | will find all the gwibber process ids and pass them to the "kill" command | 18:01 |
| mhall119 | now, it's hard to remember all the ways to use commands, not even power users remember them all | 18:01 |
| mhall119 | fortunately, there's easy ways to find out | 18:01 |
| mhall119 | almost every command will take the "--help" flag and give you a short description of how to use it | 18:02 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to AppArmor - Instructors: jjohansen | ||
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 18:02 |
| mhall119 | also, "man" will give you the full documentation | 18:02 |
| jjohansen | well lets get started | 18:05 |
| jjohansen | Hello and welcome to the AppArmor session. | 18:05 |
| jjohansen | My name is John Johansen and I am a Kernel Engineer for Canonical | 18:05 |
| jjohansen | For those not familiar with AppArmor it is a mandatory access control (MAC) style security system. Basically it limits an application to a preset list of resources, | 18:06 |
| jjohansen | whether it is run as root or not, and it is always gets applied ie. the user doesn't get to change it. | 18:06 |
| jjohansen | Today I plan to walk through the basics of AppArmor, feel free to ask questions at anytime, though if they don't fit into the current discussion I may wait until later to answer them. | 18:06 |
| jjohansen | We are going to need a terminal open as AppArmor currently does not have | 18:07 |
| jjohansen | any GUI based tools. | 18:07 |
| jjohansen | In unity you can do this by pressing the meta (windows) key and typing terminal | 18:07 |
| jjohansen | or in the classic gnome environment Applications >> Accessories >> Terminal | 18:07 |
| jjohansen | First up we will look do some basic introspection of AppArmor | 18:08 |
| jjohansen | To see if apparmor is enabled from the terminal type | 18:08 |
| jjohansen | aa-status | 18:08 |
| jjohansen | if enabled it will return | 18:09 |
| jjohansen | apparmor module is loaded. | 18:09 |
| jjohansen | You do not have enough privilege to read the profile set. | 18:09 |
| jjohansen | that is enough to tell apparmor is loaded and active but not see what it is doing | 18:09 |
| jjohansen | to get a full picture we need to use sudo | 18:10 |
| jjohansen | sudo aa-status | 18:10 |
| jjohansen | will return a much larger list of items | 18:10 |
| jjohansen | eg. | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | apparmor module is loaded. | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | 47 profiles are loaded. | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | 12 profiles are in enforce mode. | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /sbin/dhclient | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/bin/evince | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/bin/evince-previewer | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/bin/evince-thumbnailer | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/lib/NetworkManager/nm-dhcp-client.action | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_java | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_openjdk | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/lib/connman/scripts/dhclient-script | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/lib/cups/backend/cups-pdf | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/sbin/cupsd | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/sbin/tcpdump | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | /usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | 35 profiles are in complain mode. | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | that is just part of my listing | 18:11 |
| jjohansen | so on my example system, there are 47 profiles loaded into the kernel | 18:12 |
| jjohansen | of those 47 profiles only 12 of them are being enforced | 18:13 |
| jjohansen | this means that applications confined by those programs, can only do what is specified by the profile | 18:13 |
| jjohansen | if they try to do anything not specified by the profile the access will denied the application with EPERM or EACCES | 18:14 |
| jjohansen | the rest of the loaded profiles are in complain mode | 18:14 |
| jjohansen | this is a special "learning" mode where profiles confined by a profile don't have access listed in a profile fail | 18:15 |
| jjohansen | instead, the access is logged and allowed, so the application runs normally but the behavior and accesses are logged so they can be learned and a profile developed | 18:16 |
| jjohansen | the information aa-status spits out can also be obtained using ps -Z, but it won't be organized near as nice | 18:18 |
| jjohansen | but can be useful to know if you need to do something with shell scripting | 18:18 |
| jjohansen | eg. | 18:18 |
| jjohansen | pidof cupsd | xargs ps -Z | 18:19 |
| jjohansen | LABEL PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND | 18:19 |
| jjohansen | /usr/sbin/cupsd 939 ? Ss 0:00 /usr/sbin/cupsd -F | 18:19 |
| jjohansen | shows that cupsd is confined by the /usr/sbin/cupsd profile | 18:19 |
| jjohansen | the LABEL column provided by the -Z option to ps is the profile listing | 18:20 |
| jjohansen | applications that are not confined by a profile are listed as unconfined | 18:20 |
| jjohansen | unconfined 4497 pts/1 00:00:00 bash | 18:21 |
| jjohansen | there is another useful command for introspecting network facing programs | 18:22 |
| jjohansen | aa-unconfined | 18:22 |
| jjohansen | it will show programs that are unconfined and have open network sockets | 18:22 |
| jjohansen | eg. | 18:22 |
| jjohansen | sudo aa-unconfined | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | 825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)' | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | 825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)' | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | 939 /usr/sbin/cupsd confined by '/usr/sbin/cupsd (enforce)' | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | 1671 /sbin/dhclient confined by '/sbin/dhclient (enforce)' | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | 1970 /usr/bin/mumble not confined | 18:23 |
| jjohansen | this can be real nice to help find applications that you would like to limit, as internet facing applications are generally the ones you need to worry about being hacked | 18:24 |
| jjohansen | aa-unconfined does have a limitation in that it only picks up applications with current connections, if an application is opening and closing connections (eg firefox), it may not list it | 18:25 |
| jjohansen | QUESTION: Why does sudo aa-unconfined show me multiple programs with the same pid? | 18:26 |
| jjohansen | well good question, it is likely because there are multiple threads, which share the pid | 18:27 |
| jjohansen | aa-unconfined, and aa-status both have man pages that are worth looking at | 18:31 |
| jjohansen | man aa-unconfined | 18:31 |
| jjohansen | man aa-status | 18:31 |
| jjohansen | both commands get their information mostly from 2 places (for those who like nitty gritty details) | 18:32 |
| jjohansen | /proc/<pid>/attr/current | 18:32 |
| jjohansen | /sys/kernel/security/apparmor/profiles | 18:32 |
| jjohansen | they are worth poking at if you like figuring things out, btw <pid> should be replaced with a processes pid | 18:33 |
| jjohansen | eg. /proc/825/attr/current | 18:33 |
| jjohansen | so if you are using apparmor, I find one of the most useful things is the notifier | 18:34 |
| jjohansen | its in the apparmor-notifier package if you don't have it installed | 18:35 |
| jjohansen | from the command line you can install it using | 18:36 |
| jjohansen | sudo apt-get install apparmor-notifier | 18:36 |
| jjohansen | or you can search for it in the software center | 18:36 |
| jjohansen | this will install the aa-notify program and in natty turn it on by default | 18:37 |
| jjohansen | the notifier will pop up notifications when apparmor denies access to something | 18:38 |
| jjohansen | this can be real nice to have | 18:39 |
| jjohansen | either because it reminds you that apparmor is confining the application and that is possibly why you are getting unexpected behavior | 18:40 |
| jjohansen | or well because something happend that wasn't expected and apparmor stopped it | 18:41 |
| jjohansen | man aa-notify | 18:41 |
| jjohansen | for more details | 18:41 |
| jjohansen | actually one more detail | 18:42 |
| jjohansen | it doesn't start on its own, the enabled bit just allows it to get the information from the log files | 18:43 |
| jjohansen | I have it added to my startup applications | 18:43 |
| jjohansen | Name: AppArmor Notify | 18:43 |
| jjohansen | Command: /usr/sbin/apparmor-notify -p | 18:43 |
| jjohansen | Comment: startup apparmor notifications | 18:43 |
| jjohansen | so we have covered basic introspection, I want to switch gears for a minute and mention how to disable apparmor | 18:45 |
| jjohansen | generally I wouldn't but if it is causing problems, there are multiple ways to get it out of your way | 18:46 |
| jjohansen | the best is just disabling a profile, if you just have apparmor interfering with a single application that you need | 18:47 |
| jjohansen | you can run | 18:48 |
| jjohansen | sudo aa-disable <profile name> | 18:48 |
| jjohansen | or if you like doing things manually | 18:48 |
| jjohansen | sudo ln -s /etc/apparmor.d/<profile file> /etc/apparmor.d/disable/<profile file name> | 18:49 |
| jjohansen | where <profile file> is the file name for the profile causing problems | 18:49 |
| jjohansen | however if you don't use aa-disable you will need to manually reload the profile set | 18:50 |
| jjohansen | /etc/init.d/apparmor reload | 18:50 |
| jjohansen | will do that for you | 18:51 |
| jjohansen | you can verify that the profile is gone with aa-status | 18:51 |
| jjohansen | disabling a single profile is the recommended way of working around a problem as it still leaves other applications protected by apparmor | 18:52 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 18:52 |
| jjohansen | if you want to stop apparmor for all applications for the current session | 18:52 |
| jjohansen | /etc/init.d/apparmor teardown | 18:53 |
| jjohansen | will remove all current profiles, making every process unconfined | 18:53 |
| jjohansen | on reboot apparmor will be back to normal | 18:54 |
| jjohansen | if you want to disable apparmor on boot, you can enter | 18:54 |
| jjohansen | apparmor=0 | 18:54 |
| jjohansen | on the grub command line, | 18:54 |
| jjohansen | hopefully nobody will need those but it always seems to come up in bug reports | 18:55 |
| jjohansen | Alright switching back, so as you might have inferred apparmor stores its policy in | 18:56 |
| jjohansen | /etc/apparmor.d/ | 18:56 |
| jjohansen | these are simple text files, that get compiled by the apparmor_parser and loaded into the kernel for enforcement | 18:56 |
| jjohansen | the file names in the directory are actually arbitrary | 18:57 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 18:57 |
| jjohansen | they don't have to be named after the applications that are being confined | 18:57 |
| jjohansen | it is just done by convention | 18:57 |
| jjohansen | also a file can contain multiple profiles, that is not usually done however unless they are related | 18:58 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html | 19:02 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || | ||
| coun | how does this work? I thought Shuttleworth was supposed to be answering questions? | 19:20 |
| UbuntuBhoy | been and gone | 19:20 |
| nigelb | coun: He did. Earlier today. | 19:20 |
| coun | oh. screwed up time :0 | 19:20 |
| UbuntuBhoy | lol | 19:20 |
| coun | hehe. logs up yet? | 19:20 |
| ppq | http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html | 19:20 |
| coun | thx | 19:21 |
| sabri_icone_ | hello | 20:13 |
| sabri_icone_ | how to open a new webchat in the IRC ? | 20:13 |
| sabri_icone_ | for exemple, i want to open #ubuntu ? | 20:14 |
| TLE | sabri_icone_: /j #ubuntu | 20:15 |
| sabri_icone_ | waw , amazing thanks ;) | 20:15 |
| sabri_icone_ | ther's a tutoriel for how to use webchat IRC ? | 20:16 |
| TLE | Try and google it, there is probably like a million of them | 20:16 |
| sabri_icone_ | thanks , i will do that | 20:17 |
| === dora is now known as Guest58724 | ||
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