pittiGood morning everyone07:38
pittiI hope you had some nice Easter holidays07:38
seb128hey pitti, how are you?07:44
seb128how was your w.e?07:45
pittiseb128: it was great, thanks! four day visit to Dresden again07:50
pittihad some nice bday celebrations on Friday, and our traditional big family hike on Sunday was mostly sunny too07:50
seb128ah nice07:50
pittiyou too I hope, all things considered?07:51
seb128no trip to France for us this time that was not very pratical this year07:51
seb128but oh well, next year :-)07:51
seb128yeah, everything fine07:51
seb128we mostly had a relaxing w.e, we went to watch a movie, a friend invited us for dinner on sunday, otherwise mostly relaxing07:51
seb128and some tennis playing in between since we didn't have much of the forecasted rain ;-)07:51
willcookemorning seb128 pitti07:54
seb128hey willcooke, how are you?07:56
willcookemeh, ya know07:56
pittihey willcooke!07:58
=== xnox_ is now known as xnox
pittihey Laney, how are you? enjoyed the Easter holidays?08:12
didrockshey guys (sorry, was deep into some travis machinery)08:14
davmor2morning all08:14
Laneyhey pitti08:16
Laneypitti: not bad, was in london on friday after the release so we took some time to be tourists08:16
Laneygalleries, parks, coffee shops, book shops08:16
Laneythen just mainly relaxed and did gardening for the other 3 days08:16
Laneyhappy birthday for friday :-)08:16
Laneyhey didrocks hey davmor208:17
Laneyyou ok?08:17
pittiLaney: thanks08:17
davmor2Laney: I'm in a better place08:17
didrocksquite lonely on Friday here, the rest of the week-end was ok, thanks08:17
davmor2Laney: had a nice weekend08:17
Laneydavmor2: better like... telford?08:19
Laneydidrocks: :(08:20
Laneysorry there was no 4 day weekend for you!08:20
didrockswell, that's the way to remember Seb's house isn't really in France :)08:21
davmor2Laney: yeah yeah something like that I was in shrewsbury in a caravan park for four days08:21
davmor2Laney: it was heaven08:21
seb128hey Laney!08:21
seb128oh, I forgot about pitti's birthday? :-(08:22
seb128pitti, sorry, happy birthday a bit late then!08:22
Laneyhey seb12808:29
pittiseb128: merci beaucoup !08:31
TheMusoHey EU folks. :)08:37
seb128hey TheMuso, how are you?08:38
TheMusoseb128: Hey there, I'm pretty well thanks. Yourself?08:39
seb128I'm good thanks!08:40
seb128had a nice long w.e08:40
Laneyhey TheMuso08:51
Laneylooks like gtk themes are messed up in firefox 5208:52
Laneyat least on zesty08:52
Laneyat least with ambiance ;-)08:52
Laneyat least on my machine, ok!08:52
TrevinhoLaney: you're the bug, you know :-)09:10
* Laney attaches debugger to self09:13
Mirvhmm, on another thought, I think I was here even before 2012 so no particular reason why I wouldn't stay here :)09:44
pittiSweetshark: "good" morning09:56
Sweetshark"snap election" in the UK announced in 20 minutes? I guess thats why the GBP is in free fall. I already wondered ...09:57
Sweetsharkpitti: heya ;)09:57
flexiondotorgMorning desktopers10:01
sil2100Mirv: that's the spirit! ;)10:12
chrisccoulsonhey Sweetshark10:13
Laneyk, it's broken in a vm too10:57
Laneyadwaita mostly works tho10:57
xnoxseb128, i want to discuss gnome desktop too =)11:18
xnoxSweetshark, you say free fall.... and I see it jumping +0.85% against USD and +0.64% against EUR11:19
xnoxstill down compared with like a year and two years ago, but daily is looking good.11:20
=== JanC_ is now known as JanC
jbichagood morning11:44
xnoxSweetshark, well, it first tanked before 11am and then surged up. Go figure.11:52
Laneyhi jbicha11:54
=== Topic unset by motie on #ubuntu-desktop
Sweetsharkxnox: yeah. the drop was about the 'surprise' no10 announce when the contents where still unknown.11:59
flexiondotorgjbicha Morning12:13
jbichadoes anyone here have a keyboard with a calculator key with Ubuntu Unity 17.04?12:39
Trevinhojbicha: I should have one...13:01
Trevinhobut well, it's just about fake it otherwise13:01
TrevinhoLaney: if i'd like to try landing something how it works now? Since we don't have A yet?13:16
Trevinhohi willcooke13:20
willcookehey Trevinho13:20
willcookeseb128, I'm back from the passport office already \o/13:20
simosxThe new NetworkManager has a "MAC address spoofing" feature to protect the privacy when connecting to public WiFis (https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/). Ubuntu 17.04 has this new NetworkManager. However, some USB WiFi adapters fail to work (cannot have their MAC addr changed), and affects users.13:23
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1681513 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 17.04: New privacy feature in NetworkManager stops some USB WiFi adapters from working (mac address randomization)" [Undecided,Confirmed]13:24
simosxUpstream just changed the default recently, "Update-2017-01-25: with 1.6 release and newer, the default value changed from “permanent” to “preserve” [commit],[bug]" but this needs to pass to the Ubuntu 17.04 NetworkManager package.13:26
seb128willcooke, wb!13:31
seb128simosx, hey, thanks for the info13:32
seb128happyaron, ^13:32
jbichaTrevinho: thanks, otherwise, we can just have one of the guys affected verify it when it's accepted into -proposed13:36
LaneyWhy not just set the launch calculator shortcut to a different keybinding?13:49
LaneyRenaming desktop files is totally awesome and risk free.13:49
LaneyTrevinho: Upload it to zesty13:57
Laneyor if it's not for SRU, then wait13:58
jbichaLaney: he already pushed it to zesty/unapproved13:58
LaneyThat's fine.13:58
LaneyI was responding to the question.13:58
TrevinhoLaney: ok, I've SRU material... then it's fine.14:01
LaneyYeah, it should get copied over once the next release exists14:01
seb128brb, going back from coffee place14:50
andyrockare we going to get the pre-meeting?14:58
* Laney is15:00
ryanleesipes30 min to meeting, right willcooke ?15:02
willcookeryanleesipes, yeah15:02
ryanleesipesGood deal.15:03
Laneymy firefox froze15:09
Laneythe whole browser15:09
Laneynow I think compiz is crashing when force quitting it15:10
Laneyoh no, the whole machine is down15:11
davmor2Laney: I'm betting on systemd-udevd15:11
jbichaLaney: if you get tired of Unity crashing, you could switch to GNOME to get some variety in your crashes :|15:11
LaneyI'm guessing it was OOMing or something15:12
LaneyApr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: kernel BUG at /build/linux-dfiP6t/linux-4.10.0/include/linux/swapops.h:129!15:13
LaneyApr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: invalid opcode: 0000 [#1] SMP15:13
=== Lamesauce is now known as firedsam
gQuigsLaney: oh, you have that fun bug to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/167483815:20
ubot5Ubuntu bug 1674838 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel BUG at /build/linux-7LGLH_/linux-4.10.0/include/linux/swapops.h:129" [Medium,Confirmed]15:20
mhall119willcooke: I'm here watching if you need me15:28
willcookehey mhall11915:28
* isantop waves hi to mhall119 15:28
LaneygQuigs: yeah, thx, I heard some other people talking about that one too15:29
willcookehey jbicha15:30
willcookeLet's use the meeting bot to keep notes...15:30
seb128ok, it's meeting time!15:30
seb128how do we handle that one? ;-)15:30
willcooke#startmeeting GNOME as the desktop15:30
meetingologyMeeting started Tue Apr 18 15:30:42 2017 UTC.  The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:30
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick15:30
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic:
willcookeWho is interesting in getting involved in the meeting?15:31
* kenvandine waves15:31
isantopwillcooke: There are a bunch of System76 people who are interested15:31
seb128yeah, let's maybe that with a round of "raise your hand" for those who have things they want to say/discuss15:31
* Laney is here15:31
seb128that feels like the sort of meeting that is going to get out of hands :p15:31
ryanleesipesSYSTEM76 sound off!15:32
seb128that's a lot of people :p15:32
=== alex__ is now known as alex285
seb128everybody get a one line summary of what topic you want to discuss?15:32
mhall119I'll be brief :)15:32
seb128let's give us 3 min to write that15:32
seb128then we go round pasting those15:32
seb128then we can find out common points15:32
seb128or organize15:32
alex285is the meeting done, or starting?15:33
willcookealex285, starting15:33
alex285awesome thanks!15:33
mhall119seb128: ready for us to paste them?15:35
seb128if you want15:35
mhall119With both my Community Council and Community Manager hats on, I just wanted to let everybody know that they can contact me directly at mhall119@ubuntu.com if they have any questions or concerns (non-technical ones, for technical talk to the desktop team) during the transition from Unity.15:35
ryanleesipesDo we have an Etherpad or something?15:35
seb128no, we have a bot that record15:35
ryanleesipesThat would be better for collecting questions/comments15:36
seb128but feel free to start one15:36
mhall119ryanleesipes: the meetingology bot will record stuff and generate meeting minutes15:36
TrevinhoEtherpad done: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA15:36
cimicimi hi guys15:36
seb128jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, feel free to paste your summary when you have it15:36
ryanleesipesOh nevermind15:36
ryanleesipeslol Trevinho15:37
ogra_w3m is the only way forward anyway :) everything else is bloat (SCNR)15:37
ryanleesipesUse the top one, not mind15:37
ogra_s&/w3m/wmx/ (damn)15:37
mhall119seb128: can you tell meetingology about hte etherpad link?15:37
* mhall119 has forgotten meetingology syntax already15:37
isantopI'm personally concerned about the out-of-box experience GNOME delivers by default.15:38
ryanleesipesAlbeit I can't get into the Ubuntu etherpad15:38
seb128mhall119, no, willcooke is the one who started the meeting/control the bot15:38
seb128also no idea how to do that?15:38
seb128link ...?15:38
mhall119#link maybe15:38
seb128willcooke, ^15:38
willcooke#link http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA15:38
mhall119or LINK:15:38
TrevinhoLINK: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA15:39
seb128jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, no topics from you then?15:39
* Trevinho fails15:39
ryanleesipesEither you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again.15:39
willcooke#topic Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA15:39
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA
jbichawell, I'd like to follow up on isantop's topic15:39
seb128isantop, sorry, just saw your line from earlier15:39
mhall119willcooke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology for reference15:39
ahayzenseb128, are we putting in the etherpad or here ... ?15:39
jbichaalso I assume it's ok now to drop Unity-specific patches that hold GNOME back? My specific example is Shotwell which is held at a git snapshot for a year because no one has stepped up to rewrite its UOA code.15:39
gQuigsryanleesipes: looks like a timeout, login and log back in to Ubuntu SSO (login.ubuntu.com)15:39
seb128ahayzen, either work15:39
seb128just pick one15:39
seb128so we can get moving15:39
seb128so mine15:40
seb128want to discuss goals/how we move z+1 to GNOME and re-active the channel/sync up the work between us; don't want to discuss today the technical details/choices of components/etc15:40
willcooke+1 on avoiding technical topics for now15:40
willcookeMy topics:15:40
willcookeHow should the Ubuntu GNOME team and the Ubuntu Desktop team resolve conflicts?15:40
willcookeExpected timescales to see GNOME become the default shell15:40
seb128the details should be done in a meeting properly scheduled where we have the people we need, etc15:40
ryanleesipesI still can't get in15:40
mhall119where will technical topics be discussed? later IRC meetings or mailinglist?15:40
ryanleesipesI'll just ask my questions in here, and perhaps someone else can plug them into Etherpad15:40
mhall119ryanleesipes: PM me your LP nick15:41
seb128we are going to have another meeting15:41
seb128but mailing list is always fine for questions if anyone has some15:41
ryanleesipesIt's just ryanleesipes mhall11915:41
seb128or for raising topics15:41
jackpot51mhall119: jackpot51 on the pad pls15:42
mhall119ryanleesipes: you should have etherpad access now, might need to log out and back in15:42
ryanleesipesI got in15:42
mhall119jackpot51: also added, if anyone else needs access to the etherpad please PM me your launchpad nick15:42
seb128k, let's see we have enough topics to touch a few of those15:43
seb128willcooke, how do you want to process?15:43
ryanleesipesAlright, I'm in15:43
willcookeI'll go through the pad one by one and set the topic, starting at the top...15:43
flexiondotorgMy questions: Will AppMenu and Indicator continue to be supported?15:44
willcookeactually, let's start with...15:44
k1lwhat is the goal of the "new" gnome desktop: ship a vanilla gnome-shell or keep the workflow/look at the old unity way (with extensions or maybe patches for globalmenu)?15:44
willcooke#topic Dropping Unity specific patches15:44
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Dropping Unity specific patches
willcookejbicha, want to kick that off?15:44
seb128let's start with this one because it leads to how we set up collaboration I think15:45
jbichaHow are we handling Unity-specific patches?15:45
seb128or organize the work15:45
jbichado we just keep them if they aren't holding us back?15:45
seb128yes please15:45
seb128well no15:45
seb128my stand would be that we should go through the packages and remove patches that we feel like are not needed anymore15:46
seb128but we shouldn't do that as individuals15:46
seb128like I would try to suggest we set up a per-review rule15:46
seb128and use the channel to request reviews15:46
mhall119is there a definitive list of these packages/patches?15:46
seb128so nobody takes an unilateral decision15:46
seb128and we resume team work/channel activity15:47
seb128jbicha, wdyt?15:47
seb128it's probably fine to drop patches for uoa/menubars/csd etc, but maybe not some others like typeahead in nautilus15:47
seb128if we just go "open gate mode" it's going to be cahotic at best15:47
jbichaso, what I hear you saying is case-by-case but let's discuss when we do it to make sure there's concensus15:47
seb128what do others thing?15:47
jbichaironically, typeahead is probably the first to go as we've already discussed :|15:48
seb128yeah, maybe not the best example15:48
Laneynautilus isn't a good example because we already separately discussed dropping that15:48
Laneydon't know what would be atm15:48
Laneymaybe something15:48
gQuigsare we ok with breakage on Unity to get Gnome working better?15:48
seb128please don't nitpick on stupid examples15:48
mhall119seb128: would it be easier to start with "no patches" and go through them to add back in ones you want to keep, or start with "all patches" and go through them to see which ones to drop?15:48
seb128it's just the first one I had coming15:48
ryanleesipesAgree with mhall11915:49
ryanleesipeson starting with no patches15:49
LaneyI'm sure there will be some things to keep15:49
mhall119ryanleesipes: that was a question, you can't agree with it :-P15:49
Laneylooking at gtk there are some15:49
ryanleesipesI can15:49
ryanleesipesIt's my right15:49
seb128keeping unity working in universe is a good point15:49
seb128we are not going to keep intrusive UI patches for apps I think15:49
Trevinhothere are some unity patches though, that might be convenient to keep (if not causing too much hassle) for people who wants to stick to unity7 on 18.04 I think15:50
seb128but we should probably keep the patches that don't cost much like if we have gtk changes to make appmenu work15:50
Laneydon't know about that15:50
flexiondotorgKeeping patches has the advantage that it helps identify what we might desire to upstream.15:50
Laneywe might end up creating a crappy experience15:50
seb128maybe let's stay our of technical details today?15:50
ryanleesipesWill anyone be maintaining Unity7?15:50
Trevinholike there are patches for headerbar to make them to work well when maximized in unity, they shouldn't create problems15:50
seb128like just agree on big lines15:50
seb128like need-peer-reviews to drop patches15:50
mhall119ok, so can we get an action item assigned to somebody to start on a list of patches to keep/remove?15:50
seb128no single person who go and clean/upload by themself15:51
Trevinhoryanleesipes: as xenial is there for a while, I think it will need some basic support.15:51
seb128+1 or -1?15:51
mhall119then everyone else can +/-1 them15:51
mhall119+1 on working together to decide15:51
seb128do you plan to work on updating packages?15:51
Trevinhoryanleesipes: so, mostly high-prio bug fixes...15:51
seb128just curious15:51
mhall119me? no, you've seen what I do to .deb packages15:51
mhall119nobdoy wants that :)15:52
seb128k, you just seem to have strong preferences on how we organize ourselves15:52
seb128so I was wondering :p15:52
mhall119but I'd like to see someone take an action item to start a document or something for tracking that work15:52
mhall119for visibility15:52
Laneywe have versions.html, just file a bug when you update a package and get a review on there?15:53
jbichaseb128: I think we're in agreement with your general idea for peer review for dropping Unity-ish patches15:53
Laneyalthough that might not have proper visibility of what needs doing15:53
seb128I would vote for normal mps (if vcs) or debdiff15:53
willcookeI think it's too early to list out which specifics we want to work on, we need to agree the right processes today and then the specifics can come later15:53
seb128and get a peer review15:53
Laneymore so if we go to 3.26 ;-)15:53
seb128using the channel to request for reviews15:53
seb128willcooke, +115:53
mhall119+1 willcooke15:53
seb128which is also why I said let's stay out of technical discussions today15:54
seb128like on wheter we keep supporting unity in universe15:54
seb128or specifics about patches15:54
Laneyfile bug / merge proposal, get review, upload15:54
flexiondotorg+1 "using the channel to request for reviews"15:54
seb128^ agreement on that?15:54
jbichanext topic?15:54
willcookeSo we're agreed that we will use LP reviews and the IRC channel to request reviews and discuss it there.15:55
willcookeSo I'd like to move on to....15:56
willcooke#topic timescales15:56
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: timescales
willcookeHow does end of April for the seeds to be updated sound?15:56
seb128I think step 1 is to update the seed to put GNOME on the iso instead of unity15:56
seb128that sounds a good target to me15:56
LaneyTwo things15:56
mhall119seb128: are you talking zesty+1?15:56
seb128we don't need technical details of leaf packages at first15:57
jbichawillcooke: unless we are ok with the seeds including universe packages, that won't actually be possible that quick15:57
seb128or maybe just gdm vs lightdm15:57
Laney1. I made a PPA https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ubuntu/ubuntu-desktop-gnome15:57
Laneythis lets us 1) break shit and not care that much15:57
Laney2) include universe packages15:57
seb128Laney, do we build an iso using the ppa?15:57
seb128or what does it do?15:57
Laneyif we upload the seed there and have a look15:57
Laneyyou don't (well, you could)15:57
Laneybut I think that it would be good to do some iterations there first15:57
Laneyunless you want to go full on "move fast and break things"15:58
seb128I wouldn't mind doing that15:58
seb128but what sort of changes do you expect in the ppa.?15:58
gQuigs1) drop packages that are not going to be updated from CD (unity8, ubuntu web browser), but leave unity mostly intact?15:58
seb128is that to test the patches drops?15:58
seb128or the seed changes?15:58
Laneyubuntu-settings, the seeds, packages with dropped patches15:58
seb128I don't have a srong opinion either way16:00
seb128others, wdyt?16:00
seb128ppa is fine to me16:00
Laneyand we might find random upgrade problems before hitting the archive with them16:00
jbichawhat's the proposal again?16:00
mhall119sounds safer to me, since people have gotten used to devel releases not massively breaking on them in recent years16:01
seb128using ppa vs destabilizing the archive for a bit16:01
Laneyjust test updating the ubuntu-meta + minimal set in a ppa before 'the switch'16:01
attentehow will unity7 in universe still work if the patches are dropped?16:01
ogra_degraded ?16:02
seb128that's a topic we didn't touch yet16:02
flexiondotorgLaney are you proposing iso build that include this PPA in the short term?16:02
seb128and probably worth another meeting16:02
mhall119unity7 would still work, but apps won't integrate as well into it16:02
gQuigscan't we have both Unity and Gnome on the CD for at least a little bit during development (or am I missing what this conversation is about)16:02
Laneyflexiondotorg: nah, mainly for upgrading16:02
Trevinhoattente: I guess we can keep the most important ones16:02
seb128jbicha, do you have a list of packages that need MIRed?16:02
Trevinhoattente: but, integration is not much important16:02
TrevinhoI'd try to keep them unless they don't create troubles for merging though16:02
gQuigsjust like we had both Unity7 and 8 on Zesty image - I'm not saying we have to ship it, but for iterating to a new package set it makes it easier, right/16:03
jbichaseb128: not yet, but I can propose a partial list of MIR needs to our mailing list16:03
seb128jbicha, that would be nice16:03
Laneyguess we'd need to have an initial proposal for leaf packages first16:04
jbichathere are several choices that will need to be discussed there (keeping shotwell for instance)16:04
seb128let's not discuss apps selection in a first round16:04
seb128first we get a working GNOME session with our apps16:04
seb128then we discuss inside the session16:04
Laneythat's fine, just saying that it impacts how many MIRs need to be done and when16:05
jbichayes, we can try to get a working GNOME session first then worry about the specific apps after16:05
seb128Laney, yeah, good point16:05
Laneybest to keep it lower at the start16:05
seb128let's see we do another meeting next week to discuss again16:05
seb128jbicha, can you do the required-minimal-MIR-set for then?16:05
seb128and let's use the ppa meanwhile16:06
seb128since archive is not open yet and we didn't figure out the details16:06
seb128let's say*16:06
seb128so it gives us16:06
jbichaseb128: yes you can assign me to propose an initial MIR list this week16:06
seb128- using peer review&channel to sync work16:06
willcookethanks jbicha16:06
seb128- initial MIR list to be built by jbicha16:06
seb128- use the ppa from Laney to start16:07
seb128- another meeting next week when we review the MIR list and discuss some first tech details16:07
Laneyyeah feel free to upload there often16:07
seb128is that a good summary?16:07
willcookeseb128, +1 and captured in the pad16:07
seb128anything people disagree with?16:07
LaneyI have a second thing for this topic16:07
* seb128 listens16:07
Laneywhat do you think about doing one of the early distro milestones16:07
Laneylike say alpha 2?16:07
seb128what's the point over testing dailys?16:08
Laneypeople will actually do it16:08
seb128they can actually test dailys as well16:08
flexiondotorgGet community testing around a known release.16:08
LaneyI am aware they can16:08
willcookeIt gives us a nice clear goal to work towards16:08
seb128but if you think it helps we can do it16:08
Laneybut I've been observing milestones for a while and I know that people test the named ones and don't really test the daily ones16:08
mhall119we can do a coordinated public push for testing, either around a specific milestone or a specific daily16:08
Laneyand it's a deadline16:08
flocculantLaney: I would concur - Xubuntu sees exactly that16:09
seb128when is a2 likely to be?16:09
Laneyand the 'press' might care (if you care about that)16:09
jbichalast cycle there was only 1 Alpha and that worked well16:09
seb128do we have a schedule yet?16:09
* mhall119 volunteers to help spread the call for testing in the community16:09
jbichawe don't even have a name yet! ;)16:09
Laneybut you can look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule for an idea16:09
willcooke"end of June" for A116:09
seb128k, seems people are mostly in favor of it16:09
Laneyor https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule might be easier to compare16:10
jbicha(Zesty Alpha 1 didn't happen)16:10
willcooke"end of July" for A216:10
seb128so let's call that a decision16:10
mhall119Laney is right, the tech press will pickup and talk about the first milestone release with GNOME as the default16:10
seb128what's the goal?16:10
seb128I think we want to give it testing16:10
Laneyjbicha: sure, but it will do if a flavour volunteers to do it16:10
seb128not press coverage yet at this point16:10
mhall119lots of eyeballs and bug reports16:10
Laneythe timing for Z A1 sucked royally16:10
seb128having "it's still a rough experience" press isn't going to help16:10
mhall119seb128: we can message it as "first access, help us find all the bugs so we can fix them before release"16:11
gQuigslikely it will be advertised whenever gnome lands as the default in the nighties anyway, right?16:11
seb128I guess so16:11
mhall119gQuigs: nightlies don't usually get much attention16:11
gQuigsbut the headline will be, first nightly with Gnome Shell as the default,  we should expect attention then too16:12
mhall119if you want to get a bunch of people testing and filing bugs, a milestone will help you16:12
gQuigsnot saying to not do the alpha16:12
ryanleesipesWe'll give nightlies attention16:12
ryanleesipesWe already build them on the imaging server everyday16:12
ryanleesipesWe can test them on hardware.16:12
mhall119ryanleesipes: well I know S76 will, I meant the wider press/community16:12
seb128k, so decision is to use alpha (2) milestone points to do a call for testing?16:13
seb128willcooke, Laney, ^16:13
mhall119+1 from me16:13
jackpot51I don't think the "wider press/community" is here...16:13
LaneyThat's cool for me16:13
seb128k, let's move on then16:13
Laneyactually the main benefit for myself is the deadline :P16:13
flexiondotorg+1 Alpha 2 milestone16:13
seb128I believe we are working steadly without those16:13
seb128but if you guys see value in it that's fine to me16:13
seb128let's see how it goes16:14
seb128next topic?16:14
willcookejust looking at the questions.....16:14
seb128one thing we should discuss is the topics we want to put on the agenda for next week's meeting16:14
seb128and also decide on a slot for that meeting16:14
willcookeI'm skipping over the technical questions in that list, but happy to discuss after the meeting16:15
seb128I think one thing we need to discuss earlier is gdm vs lightdm because that''s needed for the iso16:15
ryanleesipesJust for the record, what is considered technical willcooke?16:15
mhall119are launchpad blueprints still used to plan and track work each release?16:15
jbichaseb128: mailing list for gdm discussion?16:15
alex285can we do questions after the meeting? because to be honest i;m not really following :/16:15
willcookeLet me speak to Robert re: lightdm and see what he can make next week and I'll put the word round16:15
seb128jbicha, list for discussions and trying to get to a conclusion during the meeting maybe?16:15
seb128willcooke, Laney ^ wdyt?16:16
LaneyI don't really understand what there is to discuss atm so someone who knows the issues should start it16:16
Laney(re the display manager)16:17
seb128I'm not sure16:17
seb128lightdm vs gdm seems one to me16:17
jackpot51What issues are there with GDM?16:17
Laneyjust that one16:17
seb128not sure how much gnome-shell relies on gdm and if lightdm can provide the same features16:17
jbicharight, we can't make a decision today without Robert's input anyway16:17
seb128that's probably one for robert_ancell16:17
seb128jackpot51, it's a complexe codebase and we like lightdm16:17
mhall119IIRC, lightdm had some work to add features a customer wanted, so it might impact commercial engagements within canonical16:17
willcookeCan someone kick that off on the mailing list, and I'll speak to Robert and ask him to comment there16:17
seb128I can do that16:18
willcookethanks seb12816:18
jackpot51The lock screen is a bit broken in ubuntu-gnome in lightdm, I think16:18
seb128that could maybe be fixed16:18
seb128lightdm has guest session as well that we like16:18
jackpot51That appears to be the only issue16:18
LaneyI would think our default position should be the upstream one (i.e. gdm), but let's see what the issues are16:18
seb128there is work either way, but we need robert_ancell for that discussion16:18
Laneywe'd want to re-develop the guest session feature there16:18
gQuigsjust curious, how much does dropping lightdm affect other flavors?16:18
Laneylet's do that16:18
ryanleesipesWhy ship it when that is part of GNOME's effort? It'll only create problems in the future16:18
andyrocki can take a look to the lokscreen issue in case16:18
jackpot51Who uses the guest session feature?16:19
gQuigswill investiage that, and the enterprise changes for the ML16:19
seb128we created lightdm for a reason and that reason might still be partially true16:19
gQuigsjackpot51: I love the guest session feature16:19
seb128anyway that's not a topic of today16:19
seb128another topic?16:19
LaneyI'm sure it is16:19
Laneygdm keeps a session running afaik ;-)16:20
jackpot51We could solve this by having a "guest" user added to the system...16:20
seb128oh right, o_gra complained about that some days ago16:20
Laneyjust referring to the 'light' part16:20
willcookeOk, so we'll follow up on the ML for lightdm / gdm discussions16:20
Laneyanyway, that's for the thread16:20
=== jesse__ is now known as Source0f1
seb128moving on16:20
willcookeNext topic...16:20
willcookejbicha would like to talk about...16:21
willcooke#topic Out Of Box16:21
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Out Of Box
jbichaI have read thousands of comments in the past 2 weeks. Some people like GNOME. Some think it could be a lot better if there were a few tweaks (like shipping a left-hand Dock like Unity). Some hate GNOME.16:21
jbichaI think we could reach some of the 3rd group if we can help out the 2nd group.16:21
seb128that might be a topic for the better organized meeting when we have robert, tim, etc16:21
jbichaBut the GNOME design and Shell maintainers aren't really interested in adding the option of an always visible dock.16:21
seb128is there extensions we can point users to for that?16:22
jbicha…ok, it's a controversial topic but a lot of people wondering what Ubuntu's approach will be16:22
gQuigsDash to dock (using it now)16:22
seb128we don't know yet :p16:22
seb128afaik, step 1 is to go vanilla GNOME16:22
seb128step 2 is to read feedback from our users16:22
seb128step 3 is to see where we go from there16:22
seb128willcooke, right?16:23
Laneyif we wanted to, is it hard to seed extensions?16:23
Laneyis it a gsettings override or what?16:23
seb128jbicha, ^ do you know?16:23
jbichawe actually already have feedback from people who have tried Ubuntu GNOME16:23
willcookeI'm very interested in gathering evidence to support the argument for pre-installed extensions.16:23
flexiondotorgseb128 What do you think step 1 and 2 will both be in the 17.10 dev cycle?16:23
k1lthere are extensions already packaged to debian/ubuntu16:23
seb128jbicha, are those people who want GNOME or who want Ubuntu?16:23
mhall119seb128: well part of that will depend on what Canonical is willing to invest, shipping extensions by default means you're responsible for keeping them working16:23
gQuigsLaney: I don't think so, it's just a package16:23
TrevinhoAnd.... Not break the experience for ubuntu gnome users, by injecting extensions there too maybe16:23
LaneyI know you can package them16:23
jackpot51mhall119: Both16:23
jbichahmm, I think it's just an enabled-extensions gsettings key which could work for a new default install but might not work as well for upgrades16:23
seb128mhall119, do you have an answer to that?16:24
gQuigsLaney: many are already packaged16:24
LaneyI know16:24
mhall119seb128: no, that's something Will probably needs to get an official answer on internally16:24
mhall119if he doesn't already know, he might16:24
gQuigsoh, sorry16:24
alex285regarding extensions it would be super great if you could talk with GNOME people and we could had them included inside G-C-C, as plugin at least16:24
Laneybut never mind, jbicha answered16:24
mhall119seb128: I just don't want to set the expectation that it's an option if it's not16:24
ogra_well ... you will likely also not go with the default settings of these extensiona16:25
jbichaorg.gnome.shell enabled-extensions16:25
Laneyk, that's easy enough16:25
ogra_so there is more16:25
gQuigsogra_: very true16:25
LaneyI'm guessing most of them will also be gsettings for configuration16:25
k_alam@alex285 It has been discussed before.....they don't want anything extra in gcc16:25
meetingologyk_alam: Error: "alex285" is not a valid command.16:25
ogra_Laney, yeah16:25
Laneywe know how to do that for default / new installs, it's trivial16:25
seb128jbicha, imho it's too early to know where we go on that16:25
Laneyso not a big worry technically16:25
Laneymore of a policy thing16:25
jbichayes, the good extensions use gsettings for their settings16:26
ogra_and we only want good extensions anyway ;)16:26
jbichaok, we can push that decision off to later16:26
LaneyProbably nto that controversial to go vanilla by default16:26
seb128I would start by that16:26
mhall119jbicha: does Ubuntu GNOME currently ship any extensions by default?16:26
jackpot51dash to dock does not use gsettings16:26
Laneybut maybe it's an interesting thing to talk about how we'd make any future decision now16:26
seb128and adjust if we feel it's needed16:26
mhall119or is it vanilla GNOME shell?16:26
ogra_jackpot51, well, thats surely fixable16:27
isantopmhall119: It's very vanilla16:27
willcookeAs jbicha commented, lots of people have expressed an desire for particular extensions.  So I will gather up all of those comments and try to come to a conclusion about what people want.  Then I will report back here and we can discuss further16:27
Source0f1Regarding extensions, I think user-friendliness is different than user-familiarity or user-preference, yeah?16:27
jbichamhall119: no, Ubuntu GNOME historically was quite close to vanilla GNOME, but we weren't aiming for the millions of Ubuntu users either16:27
Trevinhoin case I guess we can also develop or contribute to extensions... but it's all dependent on how we want Ubuntu desktop to differ from vanilla, as said above.16:27
Trevinhoso the tech point is not really a problem here.16:27
Laneyok, so willcooke nicely volunteered to wade into the world of internet comments16:28
mhall119he'll be missed16:28
seb128thanks willcooke16:29
jbichaI think one important point is that we have an opportunity to make more a break with the past now; for instance if we add a left Dock for 18.04, users might be unhappy about us removing it later16:29
seb128imho in any case we need to get the session working first to get a feel how it is to use16:29
jbichanext topic?16:29
Trevinhojbicha: is also true that.... Users might be unhappy because we remove it...16:29
Laneyand they need to be able to try it to know what they don't like16:29
jbichayes, that reasoning works both ways16:30
mhall119so is the decision to get a working vanilla GNOME shell first, and they decide where to go from there?16:30
jbichawe can always make changes after 17.10 before 18.04 too16:30
mhall119jbicha: good point16:30
willcooke#topic Any Other Business16:31
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
Laneyk, so I just want to mention the gnome-initial-setup thing they have16:31
LaneyI installed ubuntu-gnome-desktop in a VM and got that on first login after rebooting16:31
mhall119can the desktop team get in touch with the docs team? This change is going to require more than the normal amount of updates for them and they're already understaffed16:31
Laneywe might want to think about how much we want to use that16:31
Laneyand how it interacts with upgrades and the installer16:32
Laneynot necessarily something to discuss now, but worth thinking about for the next time maybe16:32
* willcooke adds it to the "next meeting" section16:32
* Laney put it in there already16:32
seb128I don't know enough about that topic to have an opinion16:32
Laneyright, that's why I mention it early16:33
seb128I also don't know much about ubiquity-oem16:33
seb128can they do the same things?16:33
seb128like pre-seeding configs16:33
flexiondotorgGiven the tight time scales, what theme will be default at this stage?16:33
LaneyI mean historically we've not had a new user welcome thing at all16:33
seb128also changing might impact oem workflows16:33
seb128so we should check with our oem team16:33
ogra_is ubiquity actually still a thing in 18.04 ?16:33
aquarius_(worth also discussing with the mate team their experiences with first-time-setup stuff as well; historically new user welcome screens were a bit of a no-no, but mate seem to have had quite some success with theirs, so could be re-visit-able)16:33
ogra_(i thought subiquity will be the replacement ... i'D expect it to grow GUI features within the next year)16:34
seb128ogra_, what is replacing it you think?16:34
jackpot51ubiquity should definitely remain16:34
ogra_but thats a question for foundations16:34
seb128I didn't read anything about that yet16:34
jackpot51Why would ubiquity be replaced?16:34
Laneykkkk, that's not something for now!16:34
seb128indeed not16:35
gQuigsI though subiquity was just server's ubiquity..  but no idea what the vision for it actually is16:35
willcookeryanleesipes, would be good to get your feedback on that in the near future ^16:35
seb128not in our hands and not for today16:35
seb128we are over the hour, should we wrap? we have enough for today16:35
seb128we can discuss/reply to questions after the meeting still16:35
seb128if some people want to stick around for a bit16:36
willcookeRe: Themes.  What do Ambiance and Radiance look like today on GNOME shell?16:36
ryanleesipeshey willcooke sounds good, jackpot51 works with it more than I do (he is a 76er)16:36
flexiondotorgThere has been talk of dropping aptdaemon for PackageKit on the ML. Is this still achievable in the 17.10 dev cycle given the extra work?16:36
dmj_s76oem install and firstboot working well for s76 is kinda critical16:36
seb128willcooke, good question...16:36
Laneyflexiondotorg: I think we should do that16:36
seb128flexiondotorg, patches are welcome :-)16:36
jbichawillcooke: the Ubuntu themes don't look that great on GNOME16:36
mhall119willcooke had a question about resolving conflicts between the two teams16:36
Laneythere's a problem with black corners16:36
aquarius_themes: they don't look great. I had to switch to adwaita because ambience didn't work all that well.16:36
seb128what conflicts?16:36
seb128aquarius_, do you have specifics/reported bugs?16:37
mhall119any potential conflicts, the question was how they would be resolved16:37
seb128discussion until consensus?16:37
seb128is there any other way? :p16:37
mhall119someone has to own decision making at some point16:37
seb128any team has disagreement16:38
seb128that's nothing new16:38
TrevinhoIt's also to be considered that ambiance/radiance have some stuff that is made for unity... So if we don't want the hassle of keeping the compatibility for both, we should probably rebase new themes on them and update the css to get them working nicely in shell16:38
seb128I don't think there is a change there16:38
aquarius_themes: windows didn't have borders, making it impossible to see where one ended and another began, and no drop shadows. However, that may be because I installed just gnome-shell at first, and not ubuntu-gnome-desktop^. (Which is why I didn't report it.)16:38
jbichamhall119: I don't think we have trouble making decisions; we just aren't ready to make many decisions today in this meeting16:38
seb128we had some in the Ubuntu Desktop team16:38
alex285take into account that if you are going to do a new theme, you will need two themes. one for GTK3 one for GTK4 ..and ofc the GTK216:38
Trevinhowithout touching what we've now (if not breaking unity7 experience for universe users is wanted)16:38
seb128GTK4 is post next-LTS16:38
mhall119jbicha: seb128: ok16:39
Source0f1Theme and brand mark play a part in marketing and product recognition. Would be good if new desktop look could still include Ubuntu logo and theme colors, in some way.16:39
ogra_it surely will16:39
alex285seb128:  but there will be apps that use GTK4, even installed as flatpak that lots Ubuntu users will do16:40
TrevinhoSource0f1: agree16:40
jbichaseb128: nautilus 3.26 might use gtk4, so I'd push that to let's look at gtk4 several months from now16:40
TrevinhoI think also reusing some of the SURU work could be nice..16:40
ryanleesipesThat touches are my question16:40
Source0f1Still want people to know it's Ubuntu: user-friendly, reliable, etc. :)16:40
TrevinhoIf there's resources for some tuning in that sense16:40
seb128jbicha, can they mix gtk3 and gtk4 libs in a same process?16:40
mhall119alex285: IIRC the flatpak'd apps will include the theme they use, so that should be out of our hands anyway16:40
seb128that's going to be fun16:40
ryanleesipesIs Ubuntu proper going to engage with GNOME's Flatpak effort at all?16:40
seb128jbicha, imho it's not realistic to tackle before the LTS16:40
seb128we might need to stay on 3.24 then16:41
alex285mhall119: that is not correct. Flatpak will have access to /usr/share/themes16:41
ryanleesipesIt's in a patch16:41
jackpot51Do we even know if GTK4 themes will be incompatible with GTK3?16:41
jbichaseb128: if we use Adwaita, it's not a problem, but Nautilus doesn't have to be the same version as the rest of GNOME16:41
dednick@Trevinho: do we have any designers left to maintain suru?16:41
meetingologydednick: Error: "Trevinho:" is not a valid command.16:41
jbichacsoriano knows the risk of using gtk4 for Ubuntu16:41
dednickTrevinho: do we have any designers left to maintain suru?16:42
seb128jbicha, is that even realistic?16:42
alex285mhall119:   https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/11416:42
jbichaseb128: ?16:42
Trevinhodednick: not sure, but still, the suru guidelines are there, so creating a gtk theme inspired on that, is still feasible16:42
Trevinhodednick: of course, we'd miss resouces, and... Well, for that it could be  a problem.16:42
seb128jbicha, are they/we going to have gtk3/4 versions of all libs in the archive next cycle?16:42
seb128like librsvg16:42
dednickjust dont want a theme looking half like suru, half like another i mean.16:43
seb128GTK4 is a complexe topic16:43
Trevinhoyeah, sure... but that would be the same for any other theme that is not maintened by someone16:44
seb128if the GTK3 transition is any indication that's going to take several cycles to go through16:44
jbichaI don't believe librsvg uses gtk16:44
seb128not a topic for this cycle or next16:44
willcookeWe have more than enough to be getting on with before the next meeting, so I think we should wrap this meeting.  Carry on the discussions afterwards, but we have enough to do for the next week now16:44
jackpot51The changes will be slower than you think16:44
jbichaseb128: all I'm saying is let's wait until later to decide about gtk4 instead of making a decision today16:44
willcookejbicha, +116:44
willcookeoki, ending here since that is an agreement16:45
meetingologyMeeting ended Tue Apr 18 16:45:15 2017 UTC.16:45
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-04-18-15.30.moin.txt16:45
LaneyIt'll be driven by a real world situation anyway16:45
Laneyand that's a better place from which to make a decision16:45
seb128jbicha, replace librsvg by libgnome-desktop in my question if you want16:45
seb128but imho we are going to realize that this transition is complexe16:45
seb128if anybody has doubt about that16:46
jbichawillcooke: thanks for leading the meeting16:46
seb128thanks everyone16:47
seb128good discussions16:47
seb128and decisions16:47
alex285so 17.10 will include GNOME by default, is that correct?16:47
willcookealex285, yes16:47
alex285and people can give a test since the alpha?16:47
mhall119usual caveat that plans and reality aren't always on the same schedule16:48
alex285willcooke: will Ubuntu follow GNOME release schedule? 17.10 wll have 326?16:48
alex285os not discussed yet?16:48
jackpot51Is there a decision on the name of zesty  + 1 ?16:48
seb128GNOME version is tbd16:49
jbichajackpot51: just watch http://markshuttleworth.com/16:49
seb128step 1 is to go with the current version16:49
seb128without unity patches16:49
seb128then we can discuss what we update and not16:49
jackpot51seb128: +116:49
jbichathe last 2 cycles we haven't really made a hard decision about GNOME version until after GNOME Freeze16:49
seb128we should probably do that16:50
seb128especially if GTK4 depends might come in the equation mid-cycle16:50
jbichabecause there can be really big changes up until that point!16:50
pipedreamway behind but 18:22 < gQuigs> Dash to dock (using it now)16:52
mhall119willcooke: seb128: will a summary or minutes of this meeting be send to the mailing list?16:52
pipedreamdash2dock +116:52
seb128is that needed?16:53
seb128that was more a work-sync meeting for people involved16:53
seb128not one for announcements or news16:53
mhall119well the announcement went there, so I would assume a summary would too16:53
gQuigsmhall119: it gets added the desktop team meetings page16:53
seb128we have logs as every week16:53
ogra_well, you made a ML announcement ... at least a link to the irc logs16:53
willcookemhall119, would you take care of that for us?16:53
mhall119happy to16:54
willcookeI summarised the main points at the end of the pad (decisions etc)16:54
ryanleesipesGTK4 is too far to worry about.16:54
mhall119thanks willcooke16:54
gQuigsalright, so not super useful in this case - http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-04-18-15.30.html16:55
seb128ryanleesipes, jbicha suggests that's not true and that nautilus might start using it this cycle, but yeah we should stay out of it until properly figured out16:56
ryanleesipesBased on my conversations, it seems like some of the questions/concerns would likely be addressed via a conversation with some upstream contributors.16:56
ogra_gQuigs, yeah, rather:  https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/04/18/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t15:3016:56
pipedreamwillcooke: moar extensions https://paste.ubuntu.com/24408562/16:56
willcookethanks pipedream16:57
ogra_pipedream, bah, no workspace-grid :P16:58
seb128reading questions from the pad16:59
ogra_(teh workspace handling of default gnome is rather awful for someone used to unity7 on a laptop with lots of workspaces)16:59
seb128ryanleesipes, the flatpak topic isn't discussed, our desktop is still based on deb and ubuntu is still pushing for snaps but I guess that's a topic we might have to look at maybe16:59
seb128ryanleesipes, I don't see us taking on flatpaks before the LTS17:00
jbichaogra_: Unity disables the workspace switcher by default, right? if so, it makes sense to punt Better Workspaces to an extension a user can install after17:00
seb128tkamppeter, re printing, that's your domain, it would be welcome if you could play with the current GNOME settings and see if you think they can replace system-config-printer or if we still need it17:00
seb128tkamppeter, google cloud print is going to come from gnome-online-account17:01
ogra_jbicha, totally +1 ... i just dont want to be tied to a long stripe if i enable them :) (though i personally knwo how to change it, but many peole using thenm in rowas might not)17:01
willcookeTrevinho, re your question about usings snaps for the shell - not at this point.  Lets get it working on debs first.17:01
seb128andyrock, hidpi, I read on some GNOME blog that non-int scaling factor is coming I think?17:01
jbichaseb128: my understanding is that non-int scaling is a GNOME 3.26 goal17:02
willcookejbicha, re: email client - my 2 cents - yes, I think we should.  I get the impression that lots of people still like to work on email "offline".  Happy to gather evidence to support this argument though.17:04
* Laney thinks so too17:05
willcookeFor people interested in the theme discussions - please log bugs for current problems with Ambiance / Radiance.  (*nudge* aquarius_)17:07
aruizjbicha, seb128 non-int scaling is most def going to be there for 3.2617:08
aquarius_I don't know if I can (now that I've installed ubutnu-gnome-desktop) but I'll try17:08
willcookencie, thanks aruiz.  (Also hi!!)17:08
aruizwillcooke, we're also trying to solve the screen sharing problem for 3.26 in Wayland, we are working on Pinos+some shell capabilities to solve that this will give us pretty much 0 regressions wrt X, help is welcome there, but we're not 100% sure we're going to make it on that one17:09
aruizbut fractional scaling and scale factor per display should be there for Wayland by 3.2617:10
willcookearuiz, ack.  I'll add it to the list.  I think the first big stone is probably guest session in gdm (or not, as the case maybe), and then see how much time we've got left.17:10
Source0f1Has it been decided about Xorg/Wayland as default in 17.10 and beyond?17:11
seb128aruiz, hey, and thanks ;-)17:11
willcookeSource0f1, it'll be Wayland, and xwayland17:12
jbichawillcooke: ok well the follow-up is which email client? evo integrates better with GNOME and thunderbird will have a tough time with Mozilla changes next year17:12
aruizseb128, you're welcome :-)17:12
seb128jbicha, is evo well maintained nowadays or still down to 1 rh maintainer?17:13
Source0f1Cool, thanks for the info willcooke.17:13
jbichaseb128: more than one person is making commits https://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/17:16
=== willcooke changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: Home of the Desktop Team, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam | For help or questions, try #ubuntu | Amaterasu watches over you benevolently | requests paired with a pink killer will be given preferential treatment
jbichait's another question to discuss on the list17:17
willcookejbicha, added17:18
andyrockseb128: nice, didn't know17:19
aruizjbicha, seb128 Evo is maintained mostly by Milan Chra, Tomas Popela is mostly working on the WebKit composer, but he does not do general maintenance17:47
tkamppeterseb128, OK, I will have a look. What do I have to do to fire up the GNOME settings app?17:47
jbichatkamppeter: do you have gnome-shell installed? because it's probably best to log in to GNOME17:49
tkamppeterseb128, will gnome-online-account support both sides of Google Cloud Print, once sharing the local printers into the user's Google account, and second, using the printers in the user's Google account when printing from an application?17:49
tkamppeterjbicha, I am installing it now ...17:51
jbichayou can run gnome-control-center outside of GNOME but it might not be fully functional without gnome-settings-daemon running17:51
tkamppeterjbicha, with gnome-shell installed I can simply log out and log in again with GNOME?17:53
chrisccoulsonrather than asking "which email client?", isn't a better question "do we need an email client in the default install?" ;)17:55
jbichatkamppeter: yes17:56
willcookechrisccoulson, that's where we started :)17:56
jbichachrisccoulson: do you want to bring that up on the ubuntu-desktop list?17:57
=== maclin1 is now known as maclin
jbichaor I can, and you can comment18:06
willcookedinner time, night all18:11
ovitterscan I be added to http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA user: ovitters  asked in privmsg but no response yet19:56
flocculantovitters: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad - Join that team20:20
ovittersflocculant: thanks! done20:35
GunnarHjjbicha: Do you know if GNOME intentionally has dropped the GUI for setting a compose key? (bug #1683898)20:57
ubot5bug 1683898 in gnome-user-docs (Ubuntu) "Compose key section needs to be updated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/168389820:57
jbichaGunnarHj: it's in Tweak Tool>Typing; I don't know if it's "intentional" as much as it didn't fit in to the GNOME 3.24 redesign21:09
jbichabut you can ping GNOME about it if you're interested21:09
jbicha#gnome-hackers or #control-center on irc.gnome.org21:13
GunnarHjjbicha: Thanks for the tips; maybe I will. How could another option in that long list not fit the design? :( GNOME makes typing harder in various ways: Actively hides certain keyboard layouts, only IBus, and now this.)21:14
jbichaGunnarHj: it might just have been lack of time with the 3.24 release schedule21:16
GunnarHjjbicha: Let's hope so. ;)21:16
jbichaand it's also different from all the other lines in the new Keyboard panel so it might need Design attention21:17
GunnarHjjbicha: Ok, I'm not on Ubuntu GNOME right now, so can't see what you just said.21:18
robert_ancelljbicha, does ubuntu GNOME handle mailto: links to gmail by default?21:19
robert_ancell(and other web email providers)21:19
jbicharobert_ancell: no21:20
jbichabut you can set Firefox>Preferences>Applications>mailto to Gmail or Yahoo! Mail21:27
jbichafor chromium, I guess there's an extension for that21:28
ovittersGunnarHj: gnome-tweak-tool should be installed by default btw21:32
GunnarHjovitters: Thanks for letting me know; I'm not so familiar with Ubuntu GNOME yet.21:33

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!