khmerogwhats this room all about?02:48
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bmoez#join ubuntu-tn18:58
DJonesbmoez: Its /join rather than #join (in case you've not got there yet)18:59
ScrivenerOh, so we're not all muted.19:00
bmoezok, sorry :)19:00
DJonesScrivener: Not yet, I expect the channel will be muted once open week starts with just the people involved having voice, with questions/chat coming in #ubuntu-classroom-chat19:01
ScrivenerRight. I thought this channel would already be muted from the start. Been in here all morning. I forget what time it all starts...19:05
ScrivenerI'm going to be in the air tomorrow for a good 5 hours.19:06
ScrivenerToo bad that open week starts on my vacation.19:06
ScrivenerI guess I'll be reading about it later.19:06
pleia2the Ask Mark session is in about 2 hours19:07
ScrivenerOh really? Ohhh you're right!19:12
ScrivenerThat's today.19:12
ScrivenerConveniently it starts when I get off work. ;) I'll be a little busy, but I'll see some when I get home. How long would it go?19:13
ScrivenerAnyone know?19:13
pleia21 hour19:13
ScrivenerAh, meh :-/19:14
janekam i still banned?19:55
janeki guess no ;p19:55
sabdflhello all20:06
DJonesEvening sabdfl20:06
navaHello Mark20:06
sabdflsorry to be late20:06
sabdflam all set here, fire away!20:06
DJonesI wasn't expecting you until 10pm20:07
pleia2actually, you're an hour early20:07
sabdflfire away anyhow! just kidding20:07
DJonesHeh, I was thinking 9pm last night until I double checked20:07
sabdflapparently clan was asked about 1pm PDT20:08
sabdflno worries20:08
sabdflsee you on the hour!20:08
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.21:01
sabdflhello all21:01
sabdflglad to be here, congrats to everyone on 12.04 LTS!21:02
DJonesEvening sabdfl21:02
sabdfleveryone i meet is delighted with it21:02
DJonesBefore we start, can I suggest a few tips to keep the session moving:21:02
DJones1) Please ask your question with "QUESTION" at the start of the line in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll copy them over into this channel for sabdfl to answer21:02
DJones2) I'll skip questions about support that would be better asked in #ubuntu, or are easily googleable so that good questions don't get missed21:02
DJonesOK, sabdfl, if you'd like to introduce yourself and I'll start when you're ready21:03
sabdflhi all, i'm the founder of both Ubuntu and Canonical, chair the CC and lead product design for Canonical21:04
sabdfllet's go!21:04
DJonesQUESTION: Where is the Dash search going? Will the Dash find exif, ID3 tags in the future?21:04
sabdflgood ideas, there!21:04
sabdflDash wants to read your mind, as does the HUD21:04
sabdflso the answer is "whatever fits your brain best", and these will be fun conversations at UDS next week21:05
sabdfli don't have a fixed, detailed, secret roadmap for that21:05
sabdflthe framework enables you to plug in any sort of result set you like21:05
sabdflso, it's something to invite collaboration and inspire innovation21:05
sabdfllenses and scopes are a lot of fun to work with21:06
sabdflthere are iirc over 100 already, more welcome!21:06
DJonesQUESTION: Is there any OEM interest in 12.04?21:06
sabdfl12.04 will ship on PC's / laptops from all the major brands, in different parts of the world21:06
sabdflso, yes :)21:06
DJones QUESTION: will we found a book center and game center in next version (that will make software-center more light as it will not import games and books, with the ablety to acces to any one from other) and for game center, it will import ~games from others services like Steam, ~Desuma, Djl21:06
sabdflthose are also good ideas, best place to discuss them is UDS21:07
DJonesQUESTION: It was noted that in order for the Heads-Up Display to completely replace the current application menu system, the tools all need to be discoverable (not just searchable), as they are in the traditional menus. Does the Ubuntu team have any ideas concerning what solutions to this obstacle could look like?21:07
sabdflno concrete ideas, beyond keeping traditional menus around as long as we need them for that purpose21:08
sabdflit's a fun topic to brainstorm around, and an area for creativity21:08
sabdflsince we have all the data in the global menu now, it should be possible for people to experiment with lightweight python programs21:09
sabdflto mock up ideas or suggestions21:09
sabdflunity-design would be a good place to do that21:09
DJonesQUESTION: Will be there more pushing into improving stack and dev tools in Ubuntu Q? What is your dream about Ubuntu? Thanks21:09
sabdflyes, we care a lot about developers, particularly developers of cloud applications21:09
sabdflUbuntu is already a great environment for building cloud apps21:10
sabdflbut we can make it even better and will discuss that at UDS21:10
DJonesQUESTION: Unity has got many positive reviews in Precise due to its stability focus. Wouldn't it be best if the Unity team focussed another cycle for stability and fixing Ubuntu backlog ideas first?21:10
sabdflthe Unity team has a lot of QA support now, so we will add quality in each cycle21:10
sabdflwe have a tough decision ahead about how we merge -2D and -3D21:11
sabdflwhich will result in us having to re-do some work, either way21:11
sabdflbut in general it is forward and continuous improvement every day21:11
sabdflthere is a great community vibe around the project21:11
sabdfland it seems people who were even very sceptical about unity are willing to give it another shot21:12
sabdfli think the design vision is becoming clearer, and the team worked incredibly hard to address bugs and shortcomings21:12
sabdfland i'm very grateful for their efforts, and the contributions we've received from all over the world21:13
sabdflupstreams who are taking advantage of unity API's to give their users the best experience on Ubuntu are helping too21:13
sabdfli think the community is settling down and working constructively21:13
DJonesQUESTION: Will Ubuntu have a 'game mode' in future that allows game developers to disables all unnecessary things easily, to provide maximum system resources for the game?21:13
sabdflit's hard to say "no", because it's software and anything is possible21:13
sabdflwe've seen a lot of interest in Ubuntu for game developers and gamers21:14
sabdflbut that particular capability hasn't been widely discussed afaik21:14
DJonesQUESTION: you demonstrated MAAS at the OpenStack Conference the other week. Great tool - but where can I get that great graphical representation that accompanied it?21:14
sabdflIt's called "gource", and you'll find it on the interwebs :)21:14
DJonesQUESTION: may making offical site for users to help them publish there first 30 days experience with 12.04 and when they found problems (like obliged to use commande line,...)will be very helpful to make ubuntu more user freindly21:15
sabdflcool idea - it's a variant of user testing, but focused on the "first 30 days" rather than "first hour"21:15
sabdfli like it :)21:15
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sabdfldoesn't have to be official, though21:15
sabdflsetting that up would be a lovely contribution21:15
sabdflcarefully writing up the results would really help discussions on unity-design21:16
sabdflrather than having lots of "I want X" mails21:16
sabdfluseful to have "we observed this across 3 of 5 users after 30 days"21:16
sabdfldata is better than guessing :)21:16
DJonesQUESTION: What is the status of Wayland? Do you think that the next LTS in 2014 will use Wayland?21:16
sabdflI think wayland will be exactly 2 years more mature for the next LTS21:17
sabdflI think X apps will be supported well beyond that21:17
sabdfland we'll make the pieces fit together smoothly along the way21:17
sabdflexactly where that line will fall I can't say21:17
DJonesQUESTION: how can we get accessibility designed in to the stuff Canonical produces from the start rather than tacked on afterwards?21:17
sabdflby joining the design process, for a start21:18
sabdflmuch of that comes from choice of tools21:18
sabdfland there isn't always an answer that checks every single box21:18
sabdflbut i don't believe we've ever blocked work on that regard - it's one of the things we value21:18
DJonesQUESTION: how do you believe gnome and ubuntu path's will cross? Or will they diverge?21:18
sabdflubuntu spans the whole open source ecosystem21:19
sabdfli think it's convenient for Ubuntu's competitors to talk about a split between Ubuntu and GNOME21:19
sabdflbut I know lots of GNOME developers who don't see things that way at all21:19
sabdflthey write apps because they want them to be used, and Ubuntu is an amazing conduit for their work to millions of users21:19
sabdflwe felt blocked by Red Hat on specific parts they control21:20
sabdflbut we collaborate very well with lots of other GNOME developers21:20
sabdfland lots of developers take care to make sure their stuff delivers an excellent experience everywhere21:20
sabdflit's not hard21:20
sabdflso i don't think it's worth amplifying the idea that there's a big split21:21
sabdfli'm very happy to help GNOME developers reach a huge audience21:21
sabdfli'm not here to play political games or score points21:21
sabdflthis is not academic, this is about people and helping them benefit from free software21:21
sabdflso, choose which meme you want to spread: the world is a divided place, or the world is a place where you can get things done if you are open to collaboration21:22
sabdflthe stories people tell, have more to say about those people, than about the people they are talking about ;)21:22
DJonesQUESTION: In your Quantal Quetzal announcement you touched upon visual changes - will 12.10 finally see a new icon theme?21:22
sabdflwe've wanted to do a new icon theme for years!21:23
sabdflit's not hard to start drawing21:23
sabdflbut yet another icon theme, without a proper analysis of the framework that we use icons in, would not make the world much better21:23
sabdflso, we've pulled together some experts, both artists and interface gurus, to look at the use of icons across the desktop21:23
sabdfland we'll start with proper analysis21:24
sabdflthe art part will come later :)21:24
DJonesQUESTION: wrt merging Unity 2D and 3D, why wasn't there work to make QML work with Compiz instead of developing Nux? Also, do you see any particular advantage to developing Unity for such old systems that Compiz can't run on them in some configuration? This was an issue 10 years ago, but I don't see it as beneficial today, especially with Xubuntu and Lubuntu around for low end hardware already.21:24
sabdflthis is a super-complicated topic21:24
sabdflwith lots of twisty dependencies and uncertainties21:24
sabdflremember, all of these parts are changing fast21:25
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sabdflso, it's appropriate to review, consider, and decide on a path forward21:25
sabdflwe have done very well with nux, unity is very highly regarded, in part because we were able to talk to the hardware directly21:25
DJonesQUESTION: Considering Flash not being supported by Adobe for linux, would canonical take the role of supporting and maintaining flash for firefox which is the default browser? Or would you rather switch to Google Chrome which supports it officially under Linux?21:26
sabdflnot clear, sounds like a topic for UDS :)21:26
DJonesQUESTION: How can Canonical and the Ubuntu community best foster professional, best-in-class applications on Ubuntu?21:26
sabdflwe could start by creating a way for developers to deliver their apps to users smoothly21:27
sabdfllike software centre. check.21:27
sabdflthen we could start documenting the tools and processes that support developers.21:27
sabdfllike developer.ubuntu.com. check.21:27
sabdfland we could also develop a vision for personal computing beyond the desktop.21:27
sabdfllike unity - check21:27
sabdflso, i think we're doing pretty well. i know more developers target ubuntu because of the work that has been done21:28
sabdflif you care about this, there are lots of places to help!21:28
DJonesQUESTION: Based on a number of recent job postings by Canonical, including one looking for a designer to create an Ubuntu 'HIG', is there an appetite/plan to create a set of desktop apps in-house?21:28
sabdfla HIG that expresses how an app should "feel native" is the goal of that posting21:29
sabdfland excellent applications for the position are most welcome :)21:29
DJonesQUESTION: any news about ubuntu tablet and mobile,...? and is there any work with other teams like meego-team, ...?21:29
sabdflno news, as for meego, there are excellent folk who contributed there, i don't know what the current situation is there but we're always open to discussion21:30
DJonesQUESTION: If a part of the community want to start a new flavor with a pure GNOME Shell experience, what steps should it take to become an officially recognised flavor?21:30
sabdflsame as for Lubuntu or Xubuntu or Kubuntu, really21:30
DJonesQUESTION: Does canonical any plan for a SDK for mobile & tablet version ? also what language you will use for write unity for them ?21:31
sabdflno news on the tablet and mobile front today21:31
DJones QUESTION: are there any plans to make the U1MS more useful in the future (currently everybody I talk to who tried it couldn't find most of the music they were looking for, so they ditched it and more or less decided never to look at it again--this is probably related to there being no local store for the countries involved)21:31
sabdflmusic licensing around the world is highly fragmented21:32
sabdflnothing we can do about that21:32
sabdflin countries where 7digital are well covered, the service is excellent21:32
sabdfland it will expand over time21:32
DJonesQUESTION: What happened to the sound theme  which was supposed to land in Ubuntu 12.04 (atleast a part of it)?21:32
sabdflit wasn21:32
sabdfl't perfect yet21:32
DJonesQUESTION: Any plans to look at Marlin instead of Nautilus for file management? Nautilus is really ugly with the default Ubuntu theme right now21:32
sabdflsounds like a UDS question! i like the elementary team a lot, so it's certainly possible we could adopt their stuff21:33
DJonesQUESTION: Are there any plans to create a consistent Unity experience? Right now we have too many toolkits, visual styles, etc. in Ubuntu21:33
sabdflpatches welcome! we like the dual-layer approach, with overlays in one style, and apps in another21:34
sabdflif there are inconsistencies, please file design bugs for consideration21:34
sabdfland if we agree, patches welcome21:34
DJonesQUESTION: How long does it take you to come up with a code-name for Ubuntu releases? What is your inspiration?21:34
sabdflit takes AGES21:34
sabdfli end up reading the dictionary21:34
sabdflP was excruciating21:34
sabdflbut I hope you like the result21:35
DJonesQUESTION: Jono recently mentioned that Canonical has been working with Valve to deliver a great Steam gaming experience on Ubuntu, are you also working Nvidia/Ati to improve the drivers?21:35
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sabdflwe do work with both nvidia and ati, yes, but i can't comment on other work with a specific vendor or partner21:35
DJonesQUESTION: will we be able to donload ubuntu with our lang (like -fr, -ar, -it,...) from the official site (ubuntu.com)  like option ?21:36
sabdflthat's a very good idea, and i'd like to see something like that, but i don't have a specific plan in motion to achieve that21:36
DJonesQUESTION: Has Canonical made any headway on getting interested parties to partner with for the purpose of delivering a great Ubuntu for Android experience on their mobile devices?21:36
sabdfldifficult to say, there is a lot of work still to do there. but that's a very fun project, yes, and i think we will do more with it21:37
DJonesQUESTION: can we have an update on the bees, ducks and other animals you keep?21:38
sabdflnot from me - i've been in California for two weeks!21:38
sabdflbut I think the farm is still happy21:38
sabdfli don't think the animals are revolting :)21:38
sabdflit's very relaxing living in the countryside21:38
DJonesQUESTION: Will Canonical be doing more with Quickly? It is a great idea, but already it is lagging behind the GObject Introspection work21:38
sabdflQuickly is superb stuff - I would imagine it's very easy to use Quickly with GIR, don't see those as competing in any way21:39
DJonesQUESTION: how is OEM support coming along. Will we see more preloaded ubuntu on hardware?21:39
sabdflthe number of PC's / laptops with Ubuntu does continue to grow, yes21:40
sabdfland the number of vendors that are doing it also continues to grow21:40
DJonesQUESTION: Any news from Ubuntu TV and Ubuntu for android ? will we see a device with them soon ?21:40
sabdflmayyyyybe ;)21:40
DJonesQUESTION: Why is "Gnome-shell" or "Gnome Classic" no standard for installation --> 12.04?21:40
sabdflbased on user testing, Unity provides a much better desktop shell experience for our users21:41
sabdflindividuals can get whatever they want from the archives21:41
sabdflbut we have always made tough choices about what works smoothest, best21:41
sabdflwe *always* get criticised for that. we get criticized for using Firefox not Epiphany, or Rhythmbox not banshee, or... you name it21:42
sabdflbut the fact that we make those tough decisions, with the criterion being "what works best out of the box for users", is part of what makes Ubuntu important in the open source ecosystem21:43
sabdflthat's how we've made open source useful for millions of other people21:43
sabdflif you are a super-technologist then there is value in learning all about linux from every angle21:43
sabdfltry arch. try gentoo. try fedora. try debian. try suse.21:43
sabdflthey are all good21:43
sabdflit's not very useful to turn the differences into religious debate21:44
sabdflour focus in ubuntu has ALWAYS been to (a) deliver a tight, clean package of goodness in the default install, and (b) to have an open archive with good governance where different communities could collaborate21:44
sabdfli think we have done that very well, we have an amazing community and governance21:44
sabdfland canonical is very proud to support and enable that21:45
sabdflif you want a change, you need to justify it on user experience grounds, not ideological ones21:45
DJonesQUESTION: || Ubuntu sucess depends a lot of the apps are available on it. Have Ubuntu any plans to make available native apps like Evernote, etc?21:45
sabdflthat's up to the ISV!21:45
sabdflwe aim to make free software widely used21:46
sabdfland our goal is to be wonderful for users21:46
sabdflif we get lots of users, we will get more isv's21:46
sabdflso the best thing we can all do is encourage and support friends, families and businesses to use it21:47
DJonesQUESTION: Does canonical talking to netflix for ubuntu tv ? Or has other plan for replace another service like it ?21:47
sabdflnetflix is EVERYWHERE so i think it would be a natural conversation to have, but i'm not aware of the status one way or another, and besides, today is not the day for announcements :)21:47
DJonesQUESTION: What do you think about Windows 8? Have you tried it? Do you think that it is a big chance for Ubuntu?21:47
sabdfli admire some of the gutsy choices microsoft are making21:48
sabdflit's difficult for them, and they are doing some things very well21:48
sabdflcredit where it is due21:48
sabdflwe are not here because we hate anybody else21:48
sabdflwe're here because we have a vision of a future only we can create21:48
sabdflnobody else is trying to create that - not Microsoft(!), not Google, not Red Hat, not Debian, not Arch21:49
sabdflso, it's up to us to build that future: free, supportable, beautiful21:49
sabdfland your help is much appreciated21:49
DJonesQuestion: Ubuntu One would be much more atractive if it was more likely Owncloud. Is there any plans to work with them? Our make a similar ofert?21:49
sabdflnot sure - best thing would be to raise it at UDS!21:49
DJonesQUESTION: Referring to this bug about Microsoft market share, assigned to you in Ubuntu: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 With the number of other devices in the marketplace doing what desktop pc's did in 2004, should this still be a critical bug?21:50
sabdflinteresting question21:50
sabdfli think the world is a much more balanced place now21:50
sabdflwith IOS and Android21:50
sabdflso, perhaps we can consider that one fixed21:50
ClassBotThere are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.21:50
sabdflbut i think we still have lots to prove with Ubuntu on the desktop and other form factors21:50
DJonesQUESTION: Now that the maintainer of Upstart has left Canonical, what makes you certain that it is the right decision to keep it above systemd? Is Scott still working on Upstart with Google - for Android or ChromeOS for instance21:50
sabdflI *think* Scott still maintains an interest there, though I think he is also working on other things.21:51
sabdflhe worked on lots of things at Canonical, too ;)21:51
sabdflthere is a very active lead maintainer for Upstart21:51
sabdfland besides, the bulk of the work to take full advantage of it comes from the individual packages that use it21:52
sabdflthe beauty of Upstart is it's modern, UNIX-like design: it does one thing, does it very well21:52
sabdfland the most important thing for me is the commitment of that team to quality first21:52
sabdflnobody thinks they write bad code21:52
sabdflbut quality comes from following specific practices, like automated testing21:53
sabdflwe lead this - we are leading a lot of agile quality practices and making tools available to upstreams to embrace them21:53
sabdflvia launchpad, for example21:53
sabdflso yes, I support the decision to build on Upstart, in Debian and Ubuntu21:53
sabdfli think diversity is great, and if RHEL wants to switch init *again*, that's fine too21:54
sabdflwe will review after 14.04 LTS21:54
sabdflbut i think the decision to choose Upstart is the right one and think it will give very good results in Ubuntu and Debian21:54
DJonesQUESTION: How close is Unity to your initial vision in 12.04? 2/3 complete? 3/4 complete?21:54
sabdfl2/3 is pretty close, for the desktop, yes21:54
sabdflof course, it's a moving target :)21:55
DJones QUESTION: Is Debian/Ubuntu following Fedora 17 rearrangement of the Unified Filesystem, moving /bin, /sbin, /lib & /lib64 from /root to /usr/ (sounds promising for Cloud & features)21:55
sabdfli really don't mind either way21:55
ClassBotThere are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.21:55
sabdflit's something that we would want to agree with Debian21:55
sabdfli don't think it will change the world either way21:55
sabdflwhich suggests it needs to deliver a LOT of benefits to be worth doing21:56
sabdflbut... blah.... we'll just work something out with Debian21:56
DJonesQUESTION: what do you think about the number of closed source app (and payed)growed on ubuntu ? and will a numbers ofusers (like 5) able to use the some payed app (i mean like in win8)?#21:56
sabdflhmmm.... i think Windows will have a bigger proprietary app ecosystem than Ubuntu, sure21:57
sabdflbut, i don't think that stops us from making an amazing platform for people to do amazing things with21:57
DJonesQUESTION: i think the route to more great ubuntu hardware, especially hardware specifically designed for ubuntu, is always finding places where this is more profitable for OEMs than other options. so my thought is open industrial design could be a way to explore this problem space more quickly and boldly. what do you think about this? could you see this being something OEMs would jump on?21:57
sabdfli think our partner OEM's know much more about that than we do. we work very closely with them and are happy to support them, we don't want to get into the hardware business21:57
DJonesQUESTION: One are where I find that Linux (generally) falls behind, is financial apps (accounts etc)21:58
sabdflthat's an interesting segment21:58
sabdflit's the one of the few which is highly fragmented by geography21:58
sabdflin other words21:58
sabdflin most countries, Photoshop is the top photo editing app21:59
sabdflbut in every country, there is a different top accounting app21:59
sabdflbecause local rules / laws / conventions are highly divergent21:59
sabdfli think this will all move to the cloud, anyhow :)21:59
DJonesI thinks thats just out of questions queued22:00
sabdflthank you all22:00
sabdflgood timing, too :)22:00
pleia2thanks sabdfl22:00
DJonesThanks to everyone for providing questions for the session, and thanks to sabdfl for taking the time to be here and answer them22:00
sabdflthanks for the questions, and thank you for your support22:00
pleia2and thank for handling questions, DJones!22:00
sabdflplease join me in saying thanks to the organisers of OpenWeek!22:00
ClassBotLogs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html22:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
bmoezDJones: when will be UDS?22:02
DJonesUDS is next week (I think)22:02
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