#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-19
<nalioth> Shadix: your server window is the window where all the crap flows by when you connect to irc
<Shadix> ah yah
<nalioth> you should see an invitation there
<Shadix> dosn't look like it
<nalioth> anyway
<Shadix> I just see * - information.  Thank you for using freenode!
<Shadix> * -
<Shadix> * End of /MOTD command.
<Shadix> -NickServ- This nickname is owned by someone else
<Shadix> -NickServ- If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
<nalioth> what are you trying to install?
<Shadix> * Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connect
<Shadix> * #ubuntu+2 #ubuntu+1 :Forwarding to another channel
<Shadix> Barry
<nalioth> !info barry
<ubotu> Package barry does not exist in gutsy
<nalioth> what exactly is it?
<Shadix> http://netdirect.ca/software/packages/barry/install.php
<Shadix> to sync my blackberry
<nalioth> ah crackberry
<Shadix> yep
<nalioth> in your synaptic, search for "opensync" and install whatever it said was missing
<nalioth> make sure what you install has a -dev on the end of the package name
<Shadix> ok
<nalioth> find it?
<Shadix> done
<Shadix> yah
<nalioth> now try your ./configure again
<nalioth> do you have checkinstall installed?
<Shadix> do what
<Shadix> dunno
<nalioth> !checkinstall
<ubotu> checkinstall is a wrapper to "make install", useful for installing programs you compiled. It will create a .deb package, which will be listed in the APT database and can be uninstalled like other packages. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall - Read the warnings at the top and bottom of that web page, and DO NOT interrupt CheckInstall while it's running!
<nalioth> it is recommended you use checkinstall instead of 'make install'
<Shadix> well i don't have it installed
<Shadix> I take it you mean i should adjust the commands by removing  "make install" and replacing them with  checkinstall
<nalioth> yes
<nalioth> it'll make your experience much easier
<Shadix> where do I get checkinstall?
<Shadix> sudo apt-get checkinstall?
<nalioth> yep
<nalioth> apt-get install
<nalioth> synaptic
<nalioth> aptitude
<nalioth> adept
<nalioth> whatever you like
<Shadix> ok here is what happened http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/45092/
<nalioth> so write a description
<Shadix> ok what am i describing?
<nalioth>  Barry is a GPL C++ library to interface with USB BlackBerry handheld devices on Linux.
<nalioth> c++ blackberry interface
<nalioth> whatever you put, will show up in synaptic and be looked at during searches
<Shadix> errr http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/45093/
<nalioth> guess we have to fall back to "make install"
<Shadix> k
<Shadix> grrr did it again
<Shadix> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/45094/
<Shadix> wat the devil is with opensync
<Shadix> why do these thing have to be so difficult could there just be a click and drool method lol
<nalioth> ubotu: find opensync
<ubotu> Found: libopensync0, libopensync0-dbg, libopensync0-dev, opensync-plugin-evolution, opensync-plugin-file (and 9 others)
<nalioth> did you install all the **opensync***-dev  pkgs?
<Shadix> maybe not
<nalioth> libopensync0-dev is one of 'em
<Shadix> any others that don't start with "open"
<Shadix> yah didn;t have liopensync
<Shadix> nalioth, just these issues http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/45096/
<Shadix> opensynce worked
<nalioth> "sudo make install"
<nalioth> if checkinstall doesn't work
<Shadix> ok
<Shadix> nalioth, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/45098/ same isssue i think
<Shadix> getting a command unknown
<nalioth> Shadix: look at line 19
<Shadix> ok what does that mean?
<nalioth> means you need to install g++
<Shadix> oh ok
<nalioth> Shadix: have you installed "build-essential"  ?
<Shadix> what is that?
<nalioth> it has g++ and other tools for compiling software
<nalioth> saves you from installing 3 dozen individual packages
<Shadix> ok
<Shadix> looks good so far...
<Shadix> ok done now some of the commands are bcharge, btool, breset, and berrybackup where do I enter those commands to use this?
<nalioth> in the terminal is a good start
<Shadix> hmmm  jose@ubuntu:~$ barrybackup
<Shadix> barrybackup: error while loading shared libraries: libbarry.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
<Shadix> jose@ubuntu:~$
<nalioth> now that we've got everything installed
<Shadix> yep
<nalioth>  why don't you delete the directory, and unpack the archive and start over?
<Shadix> ........
<Shadix> O.o
<Shadix> good idea lol make sure it's done right eh?
<nalioth> well, when you run configure/make/ more than once, it changes the files
<Shadix> oh
<nalioth> you can run "make clean" but not every developer includes that in their makefiles
<nalioth> easier (and more sure) to just wipe the directory and unpack it again from the archive
<nalioth> and i am off to bed now
<Shadix> Well thank you very much for your help
<Shadix> I could never have done it alone
<nalioth> spread the love  (help someone else)  :)
<Shadix> doh didn't work
<Shadix> but GN
<Shadix> and i will
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-22
<dmb> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-23
<maiatoday> what is the protocol for asking questions, please?
<dholbach> maiatoday: the MOTU Q&A session will start in 42 minutes - just ask questions in the channel then :)
<maiatoday> thanks
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A Session in in 20 minutes
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to another MOTU Q&A session!
<dholbach> How are you all doing?
<dholbach> Let's start with our usual round of introductions? Who do we have here?
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, MOTU for quite a while already, has been working in a couple of other teams but is now trying to make MOTU as straight-forward and as fun as possible.
<dholbach> Come on... don't be shy :)
 * persia is a MOTU active with crash triage, games, and audio
<persia> Err.  And my name is Emmet Hikory :)
 * mgdm is Michael Maclean, he hangs around #ubuntu-uk but is interested in doing something more productive
 * dholbach high-fives persia
<huats> My name is Christophe Sauthier, I am around for a while. I am a MOTU Hopeful...
 * maiatoday is really new command line comfortable but package oblivious and willing to learn
<kelmo> Kel - maintain some stuff in Debian, want to know more about what MOTU is all about
<dbmoodb> is it ok to sit in and watch ?
 * stdin is an io stream ;)
<dholbach> dbmoodb: absolutely
<dbmoodb> cool
<dholbach> we're just going through a round of introductions
<cool> dbmoodb, did you say anything :p
<dholbach> who of you started playing around with packaging and packaging tools already?
<maiatoday> i installed pbuilder and built bc
<mgdm> I read a bit about it, linked from Jono's blog a week or two back
<dholbach> maiatoday: nice
<dholbach> mgdm: great
<dholbach> if you haven't read it already, I'd like to point to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> it contains the most important information on how to become a MOTU and where to start looking first
<warp10> I did something :)
<stdin> I've done kde4 rc1 (with help from riddell)
<stdin> it was an "experience" to be sure
 * dholbach spotted a bunch of MOTUs in the crowd: norsetto, \sh, Hobbsee, persia
<dholbach> do you have some questions for them?
<dholbach> stdin: experience in what way? baffling? intimidating? easy?
<stdin> dholbach: all of the above :p
<dholbach> I guess it depends on the package :)
<Riddell> stdin: aww, but you did great
<stdin> was fun, a bit confusing, but fun
<dholbach> stdin, Riddell: what did you guys do? mostly updating packages?
<pvandewyngaerde> i compiled KDE4 from source
<\sh> stdin, set the default to XRandR for the next upload for more blink stuff:)
<stdin> well Riddell uploaded them to hardy and I backported them to gutsy from my ppa
<dholbach> pvandewyngaerde: WOW - did you also touch the packaging of it?
<pvandewyngaerde> no
 * norsetto wonders if he should screw up his kde 3.5
<dholbach> in case you're trying to update existing packages, you might want to take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/PackageUpdate - it's an example of how to do it
<pvandewyngaerde> norsetto:  i have them next to each other
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  i don't know if you had a chance to see the package Iwas trying to update
 * persia will be editing that page tomorrow, so it's worth checking again later as well :)
<dholbach> nice to see some more Kubuntu hackers here :)
<effie_jayx> question here?
<dholbach> effie_jayx: no, which one was that?
<dbmoodb> just a q - MOTU need to be able to program right (just out of interest)
<dholbach> effie_jayx: sure
<dholbach> dbmoodb: it's not a strict requirement at all
<dbmoodb> ...... runs for hills
<persia> dbmoodb: It helps to be able to read code, but you don't need to write.
 * effie_jayx checks his plan
<pvandewyngaerde> what is MOTU ?
 * mrsno waves from the back of the classroom
<dbmoodb> well... doesn't that pose security problems ?
<dholbach> much more important than programming skills is:
<persia> pvandewyngaerde: The Masters Of The Universe repository
<stdin> pvandewyngaerde: they take care of universe/multiverse
<\sh> dbmoodb, nope...
<persia> dbmoodb: No: as long as you can read the code, you'll likely not do something dangerous.
<dholbach>     * being a good team player
<dholbach>     * learning by reading documentation, trying things out and not being afraid to ask questions
<dholbach>     *
<dholbach>       being highly motivated
<dholbach>     *having a knack for trying to make things work
<dholbach>     *      having some detective skills
<\sh> dbmoodb, it would be cool if you can speak some languages like python or a bit C or shell code...
 * persia can't speak any of those: the punctuation gets in the way :)
<dbmoodb> this freaks me out some what lol
<cool> \sh, you called me? :p
<\sh> hehe
<dholbach> and you'll definitely learn a lot along the way
<dholbach> dbmoodb: why does it freak you out?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  I was trying to update a package called p3scan folloing this bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/p3scan/+bug/133802
<dbmoodb> as .... i would have hoped the motus would need some programming experience - to look out for problems
<\sh> dbmoodb, well, most of the upstream developers are not able to speak the language they're coding in
<dholbach> effie_jayx: we can take a look it together
<dbmoodb> what ?
<dbmoodb> that made no sense sh
<dholbach> dbmoodb: of course it's great if you do speak C++, Python, Perl, Java or PHP
<\sh> dbmoodb, it was a joke...but look at all bugs and vulnerabilities, nobody is perfect and in time you learn more then the usual languages when you work on packages
<persia> dbmoodb: It certainly helps, but there's lots of work to be done that doesn't require much (or even any) programming.
<effie_jayx> as I try to update that packages ... I found some very interesting changes in the code it self ...
<dholbach> dbmoodb: but the things I mentioned in the bullet points are what I'd call requirements for members
<dbmoodb> sure
<propeat> dbmoodb: and you can also learn hacking in any langage on the fly
<dbmoodb> - does debian have similar things ?
<dholbach> dbmoodb: similar things?
<dbmoodb> motus
<\sh> dbmoodb, nope...not in this way...
<dholbach> in Debian you can become a Debian Developer
<dbmoodb> i found the ubuntu page and this irc room easier
<\sh> dbmoodb, they have debian maintainers (per package) and debian developers (which are package maintainers and distro developers like joey hess e.g.)
<kelmo> there are Debian Maintainers now, as opposed to Debian Developers
<dholbach> the process in Debian might take longer and takes a different approach
<kelmo> or you can find sponsors
<kelmo> via debian-mentors
<dholbach> kelmo: we have the sponsorship process in Ubuntu too
<dbmoodb> ok good- was getting worried about the state of the debian uploaders
<dbmoodb> - not that the ubuntu model is wrong - just different
<dholbach> that's another page worth pointing to: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<persia> Debian is much more focused on mentoring and sponsoring people.  Ubuntu is more oriented towards pieces of work.  It's easier to get good work into Ubuntu and get credit, but it's easier to get a new package into Debian.
<dholbach> it describes how you, who are not MOTUs (yet) can get changes, patches and packages uploaded
<warp10> I have a question: when I have a bugfix that is useful to Debian I send to BTS. If after a long time the fix is not applied to the code upstream, what I am supposed to do about this?
<dbmoodb> easier to get a package into debian ?
<persia> warp10: Relax, and make sure the work is in Ubuntu
<dholbach> warp10: the page I just mentioned above explains how to get it included in Ubuntu
<dbmoodb> ah dude .... want to make a bet - try get a package into etch - stable
<\sh> warp10, bump it...and raise it again , write a another mail to the bts and the maintainer personally
<kelmo> warp10: \sh, as someone who has sent a few patches to debian BTS, i would say that is a common frustration
<dbmoodb> - i guess for testing and unstable - your right tho
<dholbach> basically you file a bug, attach the patch and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors (if the package is in main/restricted) or subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (if the package is in universe/multiverse)
<persia> dbmoodb: Sure.  If you package something, and maintain it, Debian may sponsor the upload (it only takes one).  For Ubuntu, you have to pass REVU, which may require more effort (but gets a better package).
<dbmoodb> - your the boss lol
<norsetto> warp10: if all fails scream and vent your frustration, kill a whale, that kind of things
<persia> dbmoodb: stable (for both) is different.
<dbmoodb> ok
<dholbach> I think that both Debian and Ubuntu have seen packages that took very short / very long to get included
<dbmoodb> will go check out the other rooms for the other distros- just interested in how this works
<dholbach> and both have seen packages of varying degrees of quality
<dbmoodb> sure
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> ok... I believe that effie_jayx had a problem he wanted to discuss with us
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/p3scan/+bug/133802 - right?
<\sh> kelmo, well you need to know: if the maintainer in debian thinks, that it's not worth, or he/she is working on a different approach, so it's his decission
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  yes.
<effie_jayx> I was trying to update this package
<dholbach> effie_jayx: what was the problem you encountered?
<effie_jayx> the new package didn't build
<effie_jayx> there are differences in the coding... some classes have been renamed
<dholbach> effie_jayx: do you have the portion of the build log somewhere?
<dbmoodb> what is p3scan used for btw ?
<effie_jayx> yes
<dholbach> dbmoodb: transparent POP3-proxy with virus- and spam-scanning
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  http://pastebin.ubuntu-nl.org/45215/
<kelmo> \sh: that implies at least a response, which is often lacking for > months. and yes, you are correct
<effie_jayx> it was something I was trying just for kicks ... after having read the talk on packaging
<effie_jayx> I wanted to try some real things
<effie_jayx> and I found a bug that looked simple but had its things..
<dbmoodb> - p3scan on ubuntu lacks ssl currently ?
<\sh> kelmo, well, social problems can't be solved technical, my PoV :)
<stdin> effie_jayx: looks like you need to add the build-dependency libssl-dev for a start
<effie_jayx> depends line... right... in the file debian/control ??
<dholbach> the problem is: p3scan is GPL
<stdin> effie_jayx: yeah, to the Build-Depends: line
<dholbach> it can't be built with openssl and redistributed easily
 * effie_jayx takes notes
<dbmoodb> what ?
<\sh> effie_jayx, you need an ack that upstream allows the linkage to openssl
<dbmoodb> what is openssl under ?
<\sh> dbarnett_, apache style
<dbmoodb> -sorry for popping up so much
<\sh> effie_jayx, you can try to link against gnutls
<\sh> effie_jayx, but this could lead to other problems...
<\sh> dbarnett_, sorry.
<dholbach> \sh: no, doesn't seem to have gnutls bits included
<\sh> dbmoodb, apache license...this is not compatible with GPL
<kelmo> ref for openssl vs GPL: http://www.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the-gpl.html
<dholbach> thanks kelmo
<dbmoodb> well i was just reading the exceptions
<kelmo> (which is part of ftp-master REJECT faq, http://ftp-master.debian.org/REJECT-FAQ.html)
<\sh> dholbach, so, I think it's easier to ask upstream maintainer to grant the rights to link against openssl
<dbmoodb> on the wikipedia page
<dholbach> effie_jayx: did you try to build in a pbuilder?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  yes
 * dholbach takes a quick look at the source package
<effie_jayx> while he is at it...
<effie_jayx> to the rest... you can check the whole story on this package in my motu journal
<dbmoodb> - just a comment - could you not do a sneaky thing (would not encourage this) and package wget with this pop proxy thing and then cross link them- or just go well we can now distribute openssl due to the wget exception
<effie_jayx> where I documented the whole process
<effie_jayx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EfrainValles/MOTUJourney <----- lesson 5
<dholbach> dbmoodb: what do you mean?
<dbmoodb> well the apparently the GNU wget has a special exception i think
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> "In addition, as a special exception, the Free Software Foundation
<dholbach> gives permission to link the code of its release of Wget with the
<dholbach> OpenSSL project's "OpenSSL" library (or with modified versions of it
<dholbach> that use the same license as the "OpenSSL" library), ...."
<dholbach> /usr/share/doc/wget/copyright
<dholbach> that unfortunately is not part of the p3scan COPYING file
<dbmoodb> wait what ?
<dbmoodb> you missed the licence part
<dbmoodb> the gnu wget is still gpl ? no
<dholbach> yes it is
<dholbach> but it has this added section I quoted in parts
<dbmoodb> ok so ....
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  where did you ckec for this
<dbmoodb> you could invoke wget lol as a way around it
<dbmoodb> - sneaky and you could get permission from the maintainer probably anyway
<\sh> effie_jayx, p3scan upstream
<dholbach> effie_jayx: I read the LICENSE file in the source I downloaded with    apt-get source p3scan
<effie_jayx> cool
<dholbach> dbmoodb: it's always important to speak to the upstream maintainers, especially in cases like this one
<cool> effie_jayx, say?
<dbmoodb> - as i said - sneaky and don't do it
<jono> effie_jayx: rock on with the blog posts :)
<dholbach> cool: the joke gets old now :)
<effie_jayx> jono,  I am trying but I am stuck in a conferences... feeling very jono-like
<cool> :(
<cool> ok
<jono> hehe
 * dholbach hugs cool
 * effie_jayx with sucky internet conections
<maiatoday> effie_jayx: just found your blog, this will help me get out of my hesitant state
<dbmoodb> lol
 * cool hopes that was a friendly hug :p
<cool> not the other one
<dholbach> effie_jayx: to be honest, I have trouble finding out how to fix this one
<dholbach> effie_jayx: it might be worth sending this log to the upstream mailing list or something similar and ask for advice
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  no problem... but I am keen on finding one I can fix
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  the important stuff is ...
<dholbach> effie_jayx: a usual way would have been to add something like    --disable-ssl    to a ./configure script
<effie_jayx> I learned interdiff for checking the code diferences
<dholbach> effie_jayx: unfortunately this source does not contain such a script
<effie_jayx> and finding stuff
<dholbach> effie_jayx: nice, interdiff is a very useful tool, especially now that we have persia's interdiff guide
<nenolod> oh hey, the packaging Q&A is going on =)
<dholbach> effie_jayx: I think it'd be worth pointint out that there's a build problem regarding this update and that we need to contact upstream on the bug report
 * persia requests feedback if the guide is confusing to anyone
<dholbach> that's important about working with bug reports: as soon as you have more info: provide to everybody who might be interested in it
<dholbach> effie_jayx: sorry, if I couldn't help you out with this one
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  yes... My intention was to learn
<kelmo> persia: could you please let me know where the interdiff guide is located?
<effie_jayx> and I did learn a bit...
<dholbach> effie_jayx: if you're determined to fix this one, take the upstream route
<dholbach> effie_jayx: if not, there's a lot of other 'upgrade' bugs you can probably help out with
<dholbach> welcome nenolod
<nenolod> hi dholbach
<dholbach> do we have any more questions? packaging problems? process questions?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  thanks ...
<persia> kelmo: It's currently at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/Interdiff, but will be moving to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff in around 15 hours.
 * huats I have a question : I have build a library update in my pbuilder, and I need that update to be able to build another package . Is there anything to configure in my pbuilder so that it will take into account my library ?
<nenolod> huats, just add a local apt repository that your pbuilder can pull from
<persia> huats: There are a couple local repository hook scripts, but the easiest way is to build a local repository first, and then add that to pbuilder.
<stdin> mini-dinstall is good for that
<dholbach> or just apt-ftparchive
<huats> ok
<nenolod> for instance, the backports.dereferenced.org pbuilders receive a self-update signal every time a new package is installed into the archive
<nenolod> and they depend on both gutsy/universe from canonical, and an overlay'd version
<huats> I'll have a look at that so
<dholbach> nenolod: it'd be nice to have that information on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<nenolod> dholbach, yeah, i'll have to add it
<dholbach> so it'll turn more and more in a pbuilder knowledge database
<dholbach> ROCK!
<huats> thanks all
<huats> :)
<dholbach> any more questions?
<dholbach> or are things crystal clear? everybody knows where to get started and what to do next? :)
<nenolod> but, the simple way is to pbuild the updated depends and add them to your local repo, and then update then build your new package
<effie_jayx> dholbach, about debdiff's ... they are reffered to as patches...
 * effie_jayx double checks
<dholbach> effie_jayx: yeah
<persia> effie_jayx: A debdiff is one of many ways to generate a patch.
<dholbach> in most cases you can simply apply debdiffs by running           patch -p1 < ../bla.debdiff      just as other patches too
<persia> More generally, a patch consists of a file containing a set of changes to a directory tree.  debdiff generates a patch to show the differences between two packages.
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  can one upload a debdiff directly to a bug report in lauchpad
<dholbach> effie_jayx: yeah, just attach it to the bug page
<dholbach> like you'd normally add a comment
<dholbach> below the huge text box
<stdin> something I always wanted to know, why do some package have a number:version format version string? (like 3:2.1-1ubuntu1 for instance)
<dholbach> when persia explains things, you could just quote him and print it in books, he's awesome!
<kelmo> the dreaded epoch
<dholbach> kelmo: want to explain?
<norsetto> stdin: thats when upstream scrwed up ;-)
 * maiatoday is stuck between step 3 and 4 of the getting started
<kelmo> dholbach: could try
<dholbach> kelmo: fire away
<persia> stdin: The format is epoch ":" upstream-version "-" debian-revision "ubuntu" ubuntu-revision
<kelmo> stdin: an epoch (the leading number) can allow a ner version that would otherwise have a lower version of package that already exists to enter the archive as an "update"
<dholbach> kelmo: exactly
<stdin> so when/why would that be used?
<dholbach> let's say that in the beginning of the cycle I upload    gedit 2.21.0  because I think it might be ready by release time
 * persia notes that in general, it's worth trying everything else first before adding an epoch
<norsetto> quoting the debian policy: It is provided to allow mistakes in the version numbers of older versions of a package, and also a package's previous version numbering schemes, to be left behind.
<dholbach> 4 weeks before I realize: this is not going to work
<persia> stdin: A good example is for X: the old version was 7.something, but now it's modular, and the parts are 1.something.
<dholbach> then I can upload the old 2.20.2 version that works well as     1:2.20.2
<dholbach> which will be considered as a higher version number by dpkg
<stdin> ahh, I think I get it now :)
 * persia prefers 2.21really2.20.2 for the gedit example, as it will be fixed in the next release, and one can never undo an epoch
<dholbach> but as everybody else said before: do everything else before you use an epoch :)
<dholbach> because we can't sync from debian anymore (until they introduce an epoch)
<dholbach> great, another problem solved
<dholbach> who adds it to UbuntuDevelopment/FAQ? :)
<stdin> ^ that one had been bugging me for a long time
<dholbach> maiatoday: talk to us about it - what is causing you trouble between steps 3 and 4 on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted ?
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  why is there no recipe for merging?
 * effie_jayx remembers there used to be one...
<persia> effie_jayx: Each merge is different, so a recipe is hard.
<maiatoday> well I am running the tools but have trouble choosing a useful task to get my teeth into
<dholbach> effie_jayx: persia might want to answer this one
<dholbach> maiatoday: did you look at MOTU/TODO and the bugs linked from there? anything that caught your attention?
<dholbach> maiatoday: any programs you're interested in yourself?
<persia> More explicity, merging is a human-intelligence task: the merger needs to understand the changes in Debian and the changes in Ubuntu, and the workflow required depends on the nature of the changes.
<effie_jayx> ok
<persia> We're working to make the merging guide cover the most common cases, but I'm not sure we'll reach Recipe status anytime soon; it would require singifiant logic upgrades to MoM.
<proppy> bug #158605 up to review
<maiatoday> I so a request to package gogh https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/164390/ but that's probably too advanced for me
<effie_jayx> persia,  a quick question... MoM or DaD?
<nenolod> i added some of my tricks to PbuilderHowto just now. As for the autosync from local repository to pbuilders, I'm going to have to come up with a good way to describe it ;)
<proppy> dholbach: I set it back to In progress right ?
<persia> effie_jayx: MoM has better intelligence, DaD has a nicer interface, I don't use either.
<dholbach> proppy: please add a link to the source package
<\sh> effie_jayx, use MoM for the grab-merge workflow if you want and add only the bug on DaDs frontpage...
<dholbach> maiatoday: let me take a look at goph
<norsetto> persia: having packages pulled from experimental for merging doesn't seem very intelligent to me
<maiatoday> I thought it might be useful as I have equipment to test and use it myself
<proppy> dholbach: not revu ?
<effie_jayx> persia,  are there at least a couple of steps to follow to beging merging?
<effie_jayx> some general notes of some sort
<\sh> effie_jayx, but remind yourself, sometimes it's easier to see last ubuntu version and latest debian version in a clean environment without having MoM or DaD put their heads in...
<dholbach> maiatoday: it might be an easy one
 * effie_jayx is headed towards merging as an easier way to contribute
<persia> norsetto: MoM should only be doing that when the last merge/sync was from Experimental (according to Origin).  It tries to follow the last path as closely as possible.  As I said, it's a human-intelligence task.
<dholbach> maiatoday: I'd suggest to check out a few reference packages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages
<dholbach> maiatoday: it looks to me like it could be similar to the jokosher package
<persia> effie_jayx: I'd recommend making another change in a package, and watching MoM and DaD.  When your package comes up, you'll be in good shape to work on the merge.
<dholbach> maiatoday: if you want to look at that one first and see if you can understand the bits and pieces in debian/
<persia> effie_jayx: Also, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
<proppy> oups it's #classroom here I thought it was #motu sorry
<dholbach> maiatoday: also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic should explain the different relevant portions in debian/ directory
<maiatoday> dholbach: ok I'll try build jokosher
<proppy> dholbach: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=juce
 * norsetto kicks proppy out of the room :-)
<\sh> norsetto, if the last package was synced from experimental and someone was fixing something on this package for ubuntu, it's quite ok to use the path from experimental again...I think it's written in the list of sync magic and MoM Merlin Magic
<dholbach> proppy: add it to the bug report please
<dholbach> what other advice can we give maiatoday?
<proppy> dholbach: I've already done that :)
<dholbach> maiatoday is looking for easy tasks to get started with
<dholbach> proppy: good, then it's ok as 'In Progress'
<proppy> dholbach: ok :)
<dholbach> maiatoday: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages is also relevant when packaging new stuff
 * maiatoday bookmarking links for late night reading :)
<dholbach> rock and roll
<effie_jayx> persia, so changes in packages through an upgrade ?
<persia> maiatoday: For easy tasks, you might look at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/lintian/reports/tags.html.  Some of these are fairly easy, and there's usually a few of each, so you can get some practice with them.
<persia> effie_jayx: If the context is a merge, yes.
<dholbach> persia: is that linked from MOTU/TODO?
<persia> dholbach: I'm not sure: I'm still compiling the QA list, and haven't merged with MOTU/TODO yet.
<dholbach> persia: it'd be nice to have
<persia> dholbach: It's in the queue :)
<dholbach> PARTY ON
 * norsetto wears a funny hat
<dholbach> maiatoday: let me know how you do with goph
<dholbach> which brings me to another topic: letting the world know about what you do!
<dholbach> what would be great, now that you're all starting to become MOTUs is blogging
<dholbach> if you take a leaf out of effie_jayx's book and blog about your MOTU process, that'd be awesome
<dholbach> you can easily get added to http://ubuntuweblogs.org/
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  it's hard when internet reeks in this part of venezuela
<dholbach> http://ubuntuweblogs.org/submit.html explains how
 * effie_jayx looks into getting added there too
<dholbach> effie_jayx: thanks for your MOTU entries :)
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  more on the way chief
<dholbach> rock on
<dholbach> any final questions?
<mrsno> dholbach could you kindly explain the difference between planet ubuntu and ubuntuweblogs? is weblogs for motu only?
<dholbach> mrsno: you can get on Planet Ubuntu only if you are an ubuntu member
<effie_jayx> please try to document your succeses and failures
<dholbach> motu membership includes ubuntumembers membership, so it might take a while until you get on planet
<effie_jayx> and make them available somewhere...
<effie_jayx> maybe a forum?
<dholbach> and up until then ubuntuweblogs is a good place
<mrsno> ok great, never heard of the weblogs one before so ill add to my growing list of tabs, thanks :)
 * fredo had problems to build gst-plugins-bad from source package.
<dholbach> mrsno: it's a great planet
<dholbach> fredo: what happened?
<fredo> But I'm really new to packaging, so maybe I made silly mistakes.
<dholbach> fredo: the guys dealing with gstreamer hang out on #ubuntu-desktop - maybe they can help you get started too
<fredo> There was a infinite list of gconf errors at the end, after compiling.
<fredo> dholbach: Ah, that's good, maybe I'll contact him.
<dholbach> it might have been a missing build-depends
<dholbach> fredo: great
<dholbach> thanks everybody for coming to the session
<dholbach> we'll have it again next week, same time
<dholbach> so hope to see you there
<dholbach> thanks for your excellent questions
<nenolod> also if you're working on new packages, you should try to put them in debian =)
<mrsno> thx dholbach + all
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  thanks again for the support
 * dholbach hugs y'all
<huats> thanks dholbach
<effie_jayx> we are on the road to MOTUness
<maiatoday> thanks dholbach and all
<dholbach> yeah :-)
<dholbach> any more questions can go to #ubuntu-motu
<kelmo> thanks, n8
<corevette> what is the command for an md5sum
<corevette> to check an iso for example
<cool> !md5sum
<ubotu> To verify the integrity of a download, use the md5sum - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM for more
<MikeMeilleur> hi
<cool> MikeMeilleur, hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-24
<saulandres> hola
<saulandres> cuando empiezan estas charlas?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-20
<DasEi> what's going on here the near future
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom  should list upcoming scheduled events.
<DasEi> persia: I just found upcoming from sep 2008, maybe there's just nothing up right now
<persia> DasEi, Sounds like it.  There's usually not so much between OpenWeek and UDS, but after UDS, there's usually a set of sessions.
<persia> Many of the instructors are busy recovering from release+OpenWeek, or planning for UDS, or trying to organise and plan other things right now.
<DasEi> persia:so autojoining here and patience will be best then, thank you
<persia> DasEi, Well, that, or subscribing to that wiki page works.  That will get you an email when someone schedules a session.
<DasEi> nice, will do
<persia> There are sometimes unscheduled sessions, or user help discussions here, but most sessions are scheduled.
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-21
<LinuxMen420> anyone in here tonight
<LinuxMen420> i need some help with support wont let me into the ubuntu room for some reason
<grunge_> nick grunge
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-23
<anakron> HI all
<selkies> guys if i ve installed ubuntu from xp using wubi.. later when i remove the xp .. will i still be able to install xp
<selkies>  and have a dual boot
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-17
<qwebirc88827> i have a question about My ubuntu wireles connection set up, i am on my desktop and need help for my lap top
<rossouwap> nickometer rossouwap
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-18
<brijithmac> When I tried to set up turbo gears in Ubuntu 9.10 it failed. please check the linkÂ http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1315117you can see a link to the documentation that I used..Â 
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-19
<playya_> moin
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-20
<yamokidzu-it> hello
<Kabelmaulwurf> http://twitter.com/cern
<ecubuntu> nice background Kabelmaulwurf
<Kabelmaulwurf> ecubuntu, joa haben die vom lhc fein gemacht
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-21
 * jasonjang is away: ìë¦¬ ë¹ìëë¤.
 * jasonjang is back (gone 00:05:07)
 * jasonjang is away: ìë¦¬ ë¹ìëë¤.
<nalioth> jasonjang: please disable that away script when you return.  Thanks  :)
 * jasonjang is back (gone 00:33:45)
<jasonjang> i'm sorry nalioth
<padhu> Any classes?
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-22
<mikelam> hello is anyone here?
<jmarsden> mikelam: The is #ubuntu-classroom, there is no class now.  For help with Ubuntu, try asking in #ubuntu instead.
<mikelam> Thank you God that u made Ubuntu, at last no more Windows
<mikelam> i am so happy i got rid of windows, my ubuntu warks fine
<mikelam> the last time i install ubuntu from a magazine, it didnt work
<mikelam> now is working, thank you God once again
<mikelam> the battery discharging pop up is coming over and over, i went to power management and i said i dont want it to display but is still there, what can i do?
<mikelam> by the way i am Michael Lambrou, living in Vula, Athens, Greece
<mikelam> my ubuntu is getting updates now
<jasonjang> That's Good.
<mikelam> hello jason, we talked in the morning, yes all fine and i am very happy
<jasonjang> Hi~ mikelam
<mikelam> Good to see you
<jasonjang> nice meet U again.
<mikelam> thank you
<jasonjang> Oh~  U R in greece.
<mikelam> yes and u?
<jasonjang> i'm KOREAn South korea.
<mikelam> ok
<jmarsden> mikelam: This is #ubuntu-classroom, there is no class now.  For help about Ubuntu try asking your question in the #ubuntu channel.
<mikelam> ok thank you, bye
<mikelam> i am there
<mikelam> ubuntu?
<mikelam> where i find this?
<jasonjang> let's meet in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<BasiumDeJudas> hello people.
<BasiumDeJudas> I would like a personal opinion about kde & gnome?
<BasiumDeJudas> which is best or should i say which do you perfer?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-22
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Packaging Alley-oop -- Getting your package into Ubuntu through Debian - Instructors: paultag
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<nhandler> Doesn't look like paultag is around. Sorry about this guys
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<spiri> anyone around?
<UndiFineD> yes
<spiri> are you familiar with db-config?
<UndiFineD> no
<spiri> ok.. cheers.  I think I should be asking this in debian mentors anyway
<spiri> moin
<spiri> theres a class today?
<pleia2> spiri: you can check out http://is.gd/8rtIi for the schedule, the next is at 1400 UTC on Tuesday
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-23
<c2tarun> anyone here?? how much time is left in today's class
<c2tarun> ??
<bilalakhtar> c2tarun: 5 mins
<c2tarun> thanks
<skfin> :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Tutorial on Debian/Ubuntu Packaging - Instructors: bilalakhtar
<bilalakhtar> Hello people, and welcome to the Packaging tutorial session!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<bilalakhtar> Before we move ahead, I would like to tell you people how to ask questions and the like
<bilalakhtar> The session will go on here
<bilalakhtar> this channel is moderated
<bilalakhtar> you will have to ask the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat , prefixed with QUESTION: , like this:
<bilalakhtar> QUESTION: What does a deb file do?
<bilalakhtar> New, let's begin!
<bilalakhtar> *now
<bilalakhtar> I would like everyone to install these packages:
<bilalakhtar> build-essential dpkg-dev fakeroot devscripts autotools-dev debhelper dh-make
<bilalakhtar> To install them, run this in a terminal:
<bilalakhtar> sudo apt-get install build-essential dpkg-dev fakeroot devscripts autotools-dev debhelper dh-make
<bilalakhtar> (let it install in the background)
<bilalakhtar> Now, make an empty directory called ubuntu-packaging
<bilalakhtar> and cd into it from a terminal
<bilalakhtar> Then, download the source code of a very simple programme which we would package (in this case, GNU hello) Download it my typing this in a terminal:
<bilalakhtar> wget http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/hello/hello-2.6.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> Then, rename it by typing this:
<bilalakhtar> mv hello-2.6.tar.gz hello_2.6.orig.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> Then, extract the archive:
<bilalakhtar> tar xzf hello_2.6.orig.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> Now, you will have a directory hello-2.6, cd into it
<bilalakhtar> If you don't have a GPG key already, run this command:
<bilalakhtar> gpg --gen-key
<bilalakhtar> and follow the steps
<bilalakhtar> Now, set your full name and e-mail env variables in your system for use by the packaging tools, like this:
<bilalakhtar> echo "export DEBFULLNAME=\"YOUR FULL NAME HERE\"" >> ~/.bashrc
<bilalakhtar> echo "export DEBEMAIL=\"youremail@something.com\"" >> ~/.bashrc
<bilalakhtar> After that, run these commands to set the vars in the current session as well:
<bilalakhtar> export DEBFULLNAME="YOUR FULL NAME HERE"
<bilalakhtar> export DEBEMAIL="youremail@something.com"
<bilalakhtar> I hope you replaced YOUR FULL NAME HERE and youremail@something.com with your name and e-mail address
<bilalakhtar> now, let us move ahead with the packaging!
<bilalakhtar> I hope you are in the hello-2.6 folder
<bilalakhtar> then run this command:
<bilalakhtar> dh_make -c gpl3 -s
<bilalakhtar> Hit enter if every information is correct
<bilalakhtar> If not, then say 'NO' in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bilalakhtar> I assume it worked for everyone
<bilalakhtar> now, cd into the newly-created debian subdirectory in the hello-2.6 folder
<bilalakhtar> Then run these commands to clear the unnecessary files in the folder
<bilalakhtar> rm *ex *EX
<bilalakhtar> rm docs info README.*
<bilalakhtar> Now, let us analyse the files remaining in the directory
<bilalakhtar> Ignore the compat file and the source folder, they are parts of the source which are never touched
<bilalakhtar> (not never, but not touched usually)
<bilalakhtar> Open the control file in your favourite text editor
<bilalakhtar> Set the Section: field from unknown to misc
<bilalakhtar> Delete the two #Vcs-* lines
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: what is misc?
<bilalakhtar> misc -> Miscellaneous
<bilalakhtar> There are many debian sections that can be written there
<bilalakhtar> examples are video, net, etc
<bilalakhtar> let me give you a list
<bilalakhtar> The possible sections are:
<bilalakhtar> admin, cli-mono, comm, database, devel, debug, doc, editors, electronics, embedded, fonts, games, gnome, graphics, gnu-r, gnustep, hamradio, haskell, httpd, interpreters, java, kde, kernel, libs, libdevel, lisp, localization, mail, math, misc, net, news, ocaml, oldlibs, otherosfs, perl, php, python, ruby, science, shells, sound, tex, text, utils, vcs, video, web, x11, xfce, zope.
<bilalakhtar> FYI: perl, php, python, lisp sections are for language modules, not apps made in that language
<bilalakhtar> okay, so let us move ahead
<bilalakhtar> In the Homepage: field replace <insert the upstream URL, if relevant>
<bilalakhtar> with http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/
<bilalakhtar> Now, the package description
<bilalakhtar> Replace <insert up to 60 chars description>
<bilalakhtar> with a short description of the package
<bilalakhtar> In this case: Hello program that prints out Hello World!
<bilalakhtar> Replace the <insert long description, indented with spaces> thing with this:
<bilalakhtar>  GNU Hello prints out Hello World! and is translateable.
<bilalakhtar>  It is a good example of how an application should be made and
<bilalakhtar>  follow the GNU coding standards
<bilalakhtar> IMPORTANT: There should be a space before every line in the long description
<bilalakhtar> Correction: Please change the short description to: Program that prints out Hello World!
<bilalakhtar> According to Debian policy we should not have the package name at the beginning of the short description
<bilalakhtar> Now, open the copyright file
<bilalakhtar> Replace the placeholders there with the appropriate information
<bilalakhtar> (this file is very important in actual packaging, but in a tutorial it makes little sense to add info there)
<bilalakhtar> Now, the rules file
<bilalakhtar> Since our package is a pure C program that uses autotools, we don't need to edit the rules file
<bilalakhtar> but in the case of python apps/modules, perl scripts, or anything that doesn't use makefiles and autotools, you will need to edit the rules file as well
<bilalakhtar> let me give you link to documentation on that
<bilalakhtar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic has good info
<ClassBot> tarora asked: how to find package dependencies?
<bilalakhtar> Since our package uses autotools, the packaging tools will automatically provide a list of package dependencies when we build the package
<bilalakhtar> But in other cases, like python modules and other non-autotools packages
<bilalakhtar> you will need to replace the ${shlibs:Depends} in the Depends: field of the control file with a comma-separated list of dependencies
<bilalakhtar> but always leave ${misc:Depends} there
<ClassBot> ongolaBoy asked: where do we find a complete reference of debian section ?
<bilalakhtar> The most comprehensive information you would find would be the Debian policy manual http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/
<bilalakhtar> It is the base of all other documentation
<bilalakhtar> However, if you want tutorial-style docs, you would like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: what is the function of rules file??
<bilalakhtar> The rules file is like a makefile
<bilalakhtar> it contains information for the packaging tools to build the package
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: what are  ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
<bilalakhtar> The former gets replaced automatically by a list of package dependencies that are unique to the package
<bilalakhtar> If the package would be a rhythmbox plugin (for example), this would be replaced by rhythmbox, and other deps
<bilalakhtar> in this case, it would be replaced by libc6 and other basic things, since this is a very basic package
<bilalakhtar> ${misc:Depends} gets replaced by a list of dependencies common to every package
<bilalakhtar> like: glibc, linux, and things without which the system would be unusable
<ClassBot> boulabiar asked: is there any GUI for all of this?
<bilalakhtar> not at the moment :)
<bilalakhtar> If you want to develop stuff, and want to get your feet wet in packaging, you have to sacrifice the luxury of a GUI
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: when will this replacement occur??
<bilalakhtar> When we build the package
<bilalakhtar> (which is the next step
<bilalakhtar> )
<bilalakhtar> Now, let us build the package, to do that, type this:
<bilalakhtar> debuild
<bilalakhtar> That would do it all
<bilalakhtar> Some stuff will be printed on the screen
<bilalakhtar> When it asks you for the gpg passwords, enter the password of your gpg key
<bilalakhtar> Once that is done, you shall have a deb file in the ubuntu-packaging directory
<bilalakhtar> Okay, I forgot to mention about the changelog file
<bilalakhtar> The package should build properly nevertheless
<bilalakhtar> The very first line of the file should be like this:
<bilalakhtar> hello (2.6-1) unstable; urgency=low
<bilalakhtar> hello -> package name
<bilalakhtar> 2.6-1 -> package version number
<bilalakhtar> If you are packaging a new package for Ubuntu it would rather be 2.6-0ubuntu1
<bilalakhtar> 0 is the debian revision, 0ubuntu1 means this package isn't in Debian yet
<bilalakhtar> 2.6 is upstream version number
<bilalakhtar> The second line onwards contains the changes made:
<bilalakhtar> and the rest is not important for discussion ATM
<bilalakhtar> Did the package build well?
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: what about the Makefile?? dont we have to create it??
<bilalakhtar> the configure script creates it when we run debuild
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: can u explain what exactly debuild did??
<bilalakhtar> Debuild did nothing but executed the debian/rules file with a different set of arguments
<bilalakhtar> which built the package
<bilalakhtar> man debuild will tell you what it did
<bilalakhtar> It basically runs dpkg-buildpackage, then lintian, then debsign
<bilalakhtar> dpkg-buildpackage does the main work
<bilalakhtar> man dpkg-buildpackage will tell you about it
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: where is the configure script??
<bilalakhtar> In the hello-2.6 directory
<bilalakhtar> it is supplied by upstream
<bilalakhtar> Questions, please!
<bilalakhtar> Okay, about PPAs
<bilalakhtar> debuild must have created many files apart from a deb
<bilalakhtar> If you want to upload the package to a PPA
<bilalakhtar> make sure that you replace 'unstable' in the changelog file with 'maverick' or 'lucid' or the version of ubuntu you want to upload for
<bilalakhtar> By version I mean codename of the release (hardy, jaunty, intrepid, etc) not numbers (8.04, 9.04, etc)
<bilalakhtar> then run debuild -S
<bilalakhtar> then install package dput
<bilalakhtar> https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA/Uploading will help you then
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: i can see four configure files here? which one is the one guiding for Makefile
<bilalakhtar> The one that is named 'configure'
<bilalakhtar> that one
<bilalakhtar> not configure.ac or something
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> c2tarun asked: there is a file name configure.ac . can u please explain that file??
<bilalakhtar> Beyond scope, but I will explain briefly
<bilalakhtar> Developers use it to create 'configure' using autoconf
<bilalakhtar> it is a helper file in reality
<bilalakhtar> but of no use to the user or packager
<bilalakhtar> < maxpaguro> where to learn more about correct libs and howto correct handle?
<bilalakhtar> YOu mean correct dependencies?
<bilalakhtar> they are usually listed in the README file in the upstream tarball
<bilalakhtar> 2 minutes remaining, might answer 2 more Qs
<bilalakhtar> quick!
<ClassBot> maxpaguro asked: dependencies and libraries if updating a package
<bilalakhtar> If you are updating a package
<bilalakhtar> usually the deps remain the same
<bilalakhtar> In autotools packages the deps are taken care of automatically
<bilalakhtar> but in non-autotools packages, check the upstream changelog (not debian/changelog)
<bilalakhtar> Almost time up!
<bilalakhtar> Thanks for everyone who attended
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
 * bilalakhtar waits for the bot to call off
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<c2tarun> today was my first class. it was good :) where can i get logs of previous classes
<leoquant>  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<c2tarun> leoquant: at ur link i saw the log of todays class...  what about previous classes??
<c2tarun> what is the timing of next class??
<coolbhavi> c2tarun, please see the topic :)
<c2tarun> how can i convert the given time according to indian time?
<m4n1sh> c2tarun: +5:30
<c2tarun> can i get the log files of previous classes
<pleia2> c2tarun: they are all linked on the wiki page in the topic
<airborn> ale chuj jestes
<airborn> ups
<airborn> sorry
<airborn> :(
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-24
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Packaging Alley-oop -- Getting your package into Ubuntu through Debian - Instructors: paultag
<paultag> Well, it's 7:00 on the spot over here. Radical.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<paultag> First of all, I'd really like to say that I'm sorry to everyone that showed up to the last two times I've missed this session
<paultag> the first time I was just plain confused, and the second time I was asleep. Anywho, that's all behind us now :)
<paultag> I'd like for this to be Q-A styled, so please butt in at any point, I should get back to questions quickly. I'm going to start going over the basics, and depending on where people want "more", I'll change it up on the fly. No script here, so I'm pretty flexible with that stuff
<paultag> if my Internet goes down, I'll find a way to get back online. It's been a bit sketchy all day, so sorry in advance if I lag out ( not that I'm expecting to )
<paultag> No questions so far, I trust?
<paultag> bueller... bueller... Good.
<paultag> So, my session today is about how to get a package into Ubuntu through Debian ( how most packages should be included in Ubuntu )
<paultag> Yes, you can add packages directly to Ubuntu via REVU, but this only makes sense if Debian has no use at all for the package. If you've packaged up something nice, why not share!
<paultag> Since we pull from Debian anyway, it only makes sense to push stuff to Debian, and not have Debian pull from us ( it will get messy if that starts )
<paultag> Exceptions are branding and settings packages, but even that can be included in Debian, with only a few minor changes to the build scripts, the source file can produce a totally different binary depending on what distro did the build
<paultag> I've done this for Fluxbox -- the Default theme should be the Ubuntu theme for Ubuntu and the Debian theme for Debian, so it checks the vendor, and changes that flag depending :)
<paultag> in short, most packages should be going through Debian
<paultag> So, let's go through the processes. The first think you need to do is be a moderate to heavy user of some bit of software that is not in the repos
<paultag> if you don't care about the software, it gets hard to maintain. Bug reports no longer matter to you, and there is no investment
<paultag> I'm taking about it's a real pain if it's not on the system type of user
<paultag> Next, you need to identify why it's not in the repos. If the software has license issues, or something funny with releases, chances are it's not included for a reason
<paultag> if it's because no one has ever attempted it before, you'
<paultag> you're in luck!*
<paultag> The first step is to file something called an ITP ( Intent to Package )
<paultag> The first step is to install the tool 'reportbug`
<paultag> reportbug will allow you to do everything you need to, without having to think twice.
<paultag> You can find more on this process here -- http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
<paultag> Filing an ITP is a critical part of this process, and is really the first think you need to do
<paultag> Because, after all, if someone else decides to package the software into Debian, you can't both upload the same package ( so it only makes sense to track it via the bug tracker )
<paultag> It also follows that you should always check the BTS ( Bug Tracking System ) for an ITP on the bit of software you're working on before you start work
<paultag> Here's an example ITP bug. I filed this for the last package I got into Debian -- http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=600944
<ubot2> Debian bug 600944 in wnpp "ITP: fbautostart - XDG compliant autostarting app for Fluxbox" [Normal,Fixed]
<paultag> thanks, ubot2 :)
<paultag> You give a close directive in the changelog on the first upload ( lintian will ensure this ) that will close out the bug you've created
<paultag> Now, what do you do in the event that an ITP exists already?
<paultag> Well, this is actually pretty common. People tend to be super-motivated and file the bug, but never actually follow through with the processes. Really a shame.
<paultag> If you find an ITP, check the date. If it's been a "while" ( a while can mean a few different things, depending on the package ), send mail to the ITP and query it's status
<paultag> ( don't forget to offer up support )
<paultag> Just a simple "Hey, how is this going? Anything I can help with, i see it's been a while" sort of email will do wonders.
<paultag> If you get an email saying that they're actively working on it, it might be time to find other software. If they note that they are no longer working on it, you're in luck!
<paultag> You should change the owner of the bug and start work right-off. I've seen ITPs go through a few hands before they've been processed all the way through
<paultag> If you do not get an email back, wait a "while" ( again, use your best judgment here ), then take over work on the bug ( by re-assigning it, and noting that on the report )
<paultag> a few weeks is usually best
<paultag> Questions before I move on?
<paultag> Righto, I'll be moving on
<paultag> Now comes the fun stuff. You need to actually package up the application
<paultag> This *must* be done to the most strict standards that are in place
<paultag> make sure everything is as neat and minimal as you can, and check all .dsc and .deb files with 'lintian --pedantic -iIE`
<paultag> -i will give you super-verbose error messages
<paultag> -I will give you Informational messages, they can be quite helpful
<paultag> -E will give you experimental messages, these are usually not tested well and can be quite buggy
<paultag> there is no reason not to see them, though, and you should fix these errors
<paultag> --pedantic tags are the most picky errors
<paultag> Pedantic literally means "Of or like a pedant"
<paultag> it's a way of saying that they're formal and minute, but suited for teaching
<paultag> I could not think of a better word for these messages myself. You should really fix any pedantic issues with your package, after all, you are learning best practice!
<paultag> it's really good to get all these errors, it would be a shame if a package was denied based on errors that you did not even see, so please use these arguments! :)
<paultag> Questions on why you should be using uber strict Lintian messages?
<paultag> Well OK then, moving on! :)
<paultag> Next, you should be sure to fix any and all known issues with the software the can make it unfit for release.
<paultag> Any bugs that cause crashes of the system, or of it's self are serious problems, and should be resolved. If you know about these, please fix it before you consider asking for an upload
<paultag> Buggy code is no good to anyone!
<paultag> You should do this according to DEP3, debsrc 3, and quilt
<paultag> DEP3 ensures that there is lots of meta-data on the patch. This makes it easy to digest patches in the ecosystem in a computer-full way
<paultag> and as well all know, fewer man-hours is always better :)
<paultag> ( more computer-hours is great, on the other hand )
<paultag> using deb source format 3 and quilt is less critical, but still something that should be done
<paultag> source 3 is a big improvement, and quilt allows patch management to make sense again
<paultag> New packages should really adhear to this. Another standard ( abet not for patches ) is DEP5. DEP5 relates to the copyright, and you might as well fix it while you're in there
<paultag> Next, after your package is in perfect shape ( all files are correct, you have DEP3'd patches, DEP5'd copyright, quilt, debsrc3 and no lintian errors ), you should upload your package to mentors.debian.org
<paultag> sorry! .net!
<paultag> Here's the URL -- http://mentors.debian.net/cgi-bin/welcome
<paultag> Putting your package here allows you to upload your source to a common network, where it makes sense to have mentors pull from
<paultag> this also allows a note-type system, where mentors may leave feedback on the state of the package
<paultag> If you have a mentor you're working with already, you should get him or her to review the package, and consider it for upload ( or at the least, get comments and feedback on the state of the package )
<paultag> After all, lintian is no replacement for a real debian developer :)
<paultag> If you don't have a mentor who'd consider uploading the new package, it's time to send out an RFS
<paultag> Here's an example: http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2010/11/msg00012.html
<paultag> The template for this mail will be shown to you on mentors.debian.net, and should not be too hard to follow
<paultag> debian-mentors can be quite harsh, so please, keep your head down
<paultag> do what they say, and listen to feedback. They have no CoC in Debian, and only a handful of @debian.org folks hang out there ( *@debian.org tend to be very nice, actually, it's the new package hackers and the old users that take pride in being tough to work with )
<paultag> Oh --- and don't say something's lintian clean if it's not ;)
<paultag> that will only anger the collective ;)
<paultag> Questions on this?
<paultag> Righto. So, now that your package is uploaded and life can move on, it's time to prepare for the next phase :)
<paultag> This is where it gets fun -- you're now going to be the one who has to deal with bug reports and build failures
<paultag> You should subscribe to your own package ( just for kicks, via the PTS ), and check in with bugs.debian often ( http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?package=my-package-name )
<paultag> You should also watch out for build failures on arches that are not your own ( such as SPARC, PPC, x86-64 ( or just x86 ), and so on )
<paultag> Debian is the universal operating system, so be ready for that. There are lots of exotic failures that cause a FTBFS ( Failure to build from source )
<paultag> sometimes, it's your fault ( patches, build system ), and other times it's not ( if the upstream code is not your own )
<paultag> if the problem is not yours, please forward the bug rather then let it sit
<paultag> Well, now that you know all this, it's been about 6 months and the next Ubuntu release is gearing up for a release
<paultag> Ubuntu runs a sync with Debian for a bit under 1/2 of the cycle ( 2.5 months ), and this will catch your new package. Congrats! You've just contributed to Ubuntu while you were watching that *illlarious* movie on the couch, afk. It's a wonder!
<paultag> Since the package is now in Ubuntu, you should watch out for apport bugs, and launchpad bugs. It's not your duty, but it'd be lame if you did not help out at all
<paultag> Remember to also keep an eye upstream, and always package new releases for Debian ( and Ubuntu! )
<paultag> being an active maintainer comes with the turf, so be sure you have the time to care for your new baby :)
<paultag> <UndiFineD> QUESTION: how is going to coÃ¶perate with the future of USC (11.04+) where almost everything is from PPA
<paultag> PPAs are almost totally unofficial. PPAs are very informal, and inherently not part of Ubuntu. They are "addons", "third party"
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<paultag> You are able to migrate builds from a PPA to Ubuntu Main, no problem, but again this is a lot of work, and can cause issues ( such as maintaining it in two distros ( debian and ubuntu ) )
<paultag> PPAs are also never going to be included in the default install, so users may select this software, but it's by no means part of the Ubuntu software collective ( or Debian )
<paultag> UndiFineD, does that answer the question to your satisfaction?
<paultag> Debian also has lots of great tools for when you manage more then one package, it'd be a shame to miss out on that ;)
<paultag> I'd also consider work in Debian to be work with Ubuntu -- don't think that work with Debian will hurt your progress with the MOTU, it can only help
<paultag> Debian ( counting all of it's spin-offs as well ) has the biggest share of the GNU/Linux market, and contributions in Debian are hard-hitting in the F/OSS world
<paultag> so it's great karma in general
<paultag> OK, well that's about all I thought about talking with :)
<paultag> I'd be happy to take questions in the last 6 minutes or so
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<paultag> Alrighty, calling that a wrap
<paultag> One love, ya'll, thanks so much
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<c2tarun> there was a training session at 5:30 is it over??
<UndiFineD> <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<erjet_> Hey, hello everybody !! :) whats up ?
<erjet_> how are you doing??, am new here i just installed this aplication, i dont know how it works this thingi.. is there any help some one can give? :)
<nhandler> erjet_: You might want to try #ubuntu for support
<zkriesse> erjet: what is "Thingi"
<erjet_> means : "thing" just a verbal extantion :D :)
<erjet_> by the way is there a way i can install utorrent and internet download manager on ubuntu? can u help :)
<AlanBell> erjet_: what country are you in erjet_ ?
<AlanBell> ok, Albania
<AlanBell> !al
<ubot2> Factoid 'al' not found
<AlanBell> hmm one sec I will go find it
<AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/albania
<AlanBell> hmm, no IRC channel specified
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~albania
<AlanBell> erjet: seems that your team are mostly forum users http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=372
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-21
<jin> \join #ubuntu-classroom
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-22
<RenovatioNova> is anyone here? i am checking the connection	
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-23
<raja> what
<raja> help
<jcastro> test
<jcastro> *tap tap*
<jcastro> 1 minute left
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ask Mark! - Current Session: Ask Mark on #ubuntu-classroom - Instructors: sabdfl
<jcastro> Ok everyone
<jcastro> Mark is on his way
<jcastro> welcome to Ask Mark!
<sabdfl> hello hello
<jcastro> here is the intro piece: http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/12842730458/ask-mark-wednesday-23-november-1500utc
<jcastro> this is how this will work
<jcastro> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can ask questions
<jcastro> you need to preface it with the word QUESTION:
<jcastro> for example ...
<jcastro> QUESTION: Mark, what is with that moustache?
<sabdfl> it's for charity!
<jcastro> and then the bot will pick it up and pass it along
<jcastro> so without further delay, good morning sabdfl!
<sabdfl> and a very generous donor, Callum MacDonald, stepped up hugely
<sabdfl> so i will grow it even bigger
<sabdfl> if you appreciate having a laugh at the sad state of my face, please donate generously too
<sabdfl> and i will match your donation
<jcastro> Where can people donate?
<sabdfl> http://mobro.co/smonaut
<sabdfl> of course
<sabdfl> NEXT!
<ClassBot> candt_ asked: I see Ubuntu is retailing in China and Portugal (great!) What release? LTS?
<sabdfl> varies, depending on the manufacturer
<sabdfl> we have adopted a wicked new plan for LTS updates though
<sabdfl> so if a machine is certified with a non-LTS release, you will still be able to run it with the LTS userspace
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> AlanBell asked: Do you really think you can compete with iOS and Android on TV/Tablet/Phone?
<sabdfl> with your help, we have a chance
<sabdfl> design is really important, as is our ability to deliver a platform that is perceived to be more open
<sabdfl> i think this is vital, or client-side linux will ultimately stay limited to, shall we say, the technologically blessed
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> AlanBell asked: If I wanted to contribute to TV/Tablet/phone, what's the best thing I can do in the community?
<sabdfl> participate on the relevant mailing lists
<sabdfl> participate when the sdk efforts begin, around QML and HTML5
<sabdfl> help with unity-3d and -2d, which will feature
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> dmj726 asked: What do you think of having an unmodified version of Software Center as a requirement for branding something as an Ubuntu Phone?  This way if a company could only brand their device as an Ubuntu Phone if it kept Software Center (with access to the Ubuntu repositories and the ability to add additional software sources).  Otherwise it would be based on Ubuntu but not a branded Ubuntu Phone.
<sabdfl> yes, i think the android experience has taught everyone about the risks of fragmentation
<sabdfl> i hope we can improve somewhat on that position
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: What do you think of people , chastising everything Ubuntu including its users by some who consider themselves Elite, will 12.04 put an end to this (marginally)?
<sabdfl> there are of course valid criticisms
<sabdfl> and we can't be too thin-skinned about opinions
<sabdfl> that said, some of the most passionate complaints are from users in two bugs, with directly opposite desires
<sabdfl> bug (a) says an action should go left, bug (b) says it should go right
<sabdfl> and some of the voices in each bug are unreasonably insistent on their position
<sabdfl> the design team has to resolve those, and also has to put us ahead of the curve
<sabdfl> we won't compete if we constantly wait for ideas to be validated elsewhere
<sabdfl> i'm pretty proud of our record of innovatoin
<sabdfl> tion, even
<sabdfl> we had U1 before iCloud, or the Windows equivalents
<sabdfl> we introduced overlay scrollbars first
<sabdfl> we designed Unity with a single icon left launcher, and full screen search, before anybody else
<sabdfl> Apple's launchpad, and Gnome Shell, all came later
<sabdfl> change will always make people pissy
<sabdfl> but i think, if we voxed you all in the channel, you would say you want the platform of the future, not one from the past
<sabdfl> so that's what we're working on
<sabdfl> and we do it with integrity, and care
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: When will Ubuntu reach the Indian shore in the form of hardware pre installed with Ubuntu like its in Africa , Portugal?
<sabdfl> hmmm... i think it's already pre-installed in india, from some manufacturers
<sabdfl> dell, lenovo, and some local brands iirc
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> this one might be too localized, but giving it a shot:
<ClassBot> Andy80 asked: I've seen that the Asus 1215P with Ubuntu preinstalled is also available in Italy from many vendors (Mediaworld, Amazon.it, e-Price ecc...) why no news about it? No advertisement ecc... is it just experimental? Thanks
<sabdfl> I tihnk it's just becoming more normal. Best thing you can do is buy one and blog it!
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> conscioususer asked: Considering how large of a step Unity was, and the fact that it still needs polish on the desktop alone, isn't availability of resources a concern for the phone/tv/etc plans?
<sabdfl> sure it is. all help gratefully accepted :-)
<sabdfl> there is a steady flow of contributions, which is fantastic
<sabdfl> there's lots we would like to fix, but must focus on the core
<sabdfl> it's a fun project to hack on, and millions get to enjoy the result
<sabdfl> plus, you get OMG-love
<sabdfl> we're growing the Unity team internally, but the perfectionism of a community process cannot be beaten
<sabdfl> so the more, the merrier
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> dmj726 asked: Do you see integration and sharing between TVs, phones, tablets, and PCs as being critical to the success of Ubuntu on mobile devices?
<sabdfl> yes!
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> candt_ asked: Any plans to increase 'marketing to the community' (spin?) to help heal some GUI-shock 'wounds'?
<sabdfl> our community doesn't want spin, they want to help
<sabdfl> and there are lots of effective ways for folk to participate and help
<sabdfl> i see a lot more people willing to say 'hold on, stop the bitching, i love unity, and i want it to succeed'
<sabdfl> and that's what will make a success of it
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: You seem to don't care much about what opinions others form of you(as I have estimated by reading and hearing you) but why do you think people Ignore the Hard work done by You/Ubuntu for the betterment of FOSS?
<sabdfl> why do you think i am subscribed to every comment on every bug on unity, if you don't think i care much about what people report, or comment?
<sabdfl> it takes up a lot of my day, this approach to not caring ;-)
<sabdfl> it's easy to say someone doesn't care about everyone, if they disagree with you
<sabdfl> it's harder if you first acknowledge that they care as much about you as about 19 million other users
<sabdfl> who have needs and rights too
<sabdfl> my first responsibility is to ubuntu users
<sabdfl> the ubuntu spirit is not about demanding that someone else make things the way you want them, is it
<sabdfl> as our community has become more high profile, it's more tempting for people to show up and make demands
<sabdfl> we have no need ot listen to them
<sabdfl> none whatsoever
<sabdfl> we need to strengthen the bonds between those of us who actually work on the project every day
<sabdfl> trust people to lead in their part of the project
<sabdfl> i trust the security team to make serious judgement calls, every single day
<sabdfl> i don't need to second-guess them
<sabdfl> i don't expect them to be perfect
<sabdfl> but i know that getting too many opinions in there will only make it worse
<sabdfl> similarly, on design and engineering, as a community we need to ask whether we have confidence in the process by which responsibility is allocated
<sabdfl> then trust those to whom it is allocated
<sabdfl> in other communities, it's OK to second-guess any decision by any member
<sabdfl> that results in a total inability to take any serious decision in less than 5 years
<sabdfl> and we will NOT compete with android like that
<sabdfl> so, here's the deal: join, commit, contribute, excel, and you can expect to be trusted with serious parts of ubuntu
<sabdfl> and you can expect that i will defend you from the chorus of naysayers, beggars and critics
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> koolhead11 asked: Mark, when can we have visible Ubuntu certification/Training program happening 2 take on with other enterprise Linux Vendors, as people need workforce and assurance before hiring and adopting something at enterprise level
<sabdfl> we setup a training program very early
<sabdfl> but there was little demand
<sabdfl> and it was too thinly spread around the world
<sabdfl> first, we need to see substantial deployments
<sabdfl> then the demand will be there
<sabdfl> the good news is, enterprise adoption of ubuntu is growing steadily
<sabdfl> people are starting to trust us, we have delivered like clockwork for seven years
<sabdfl> help promote large scale corporate deployments, and that will create demand for training
<sabdfl> if you have an urgent need, we can probably create something custom
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> jussi asked: Mark, How involved are OEMs with canonical at this time in the direction of the Ubuntu phone, TV and tablet offerings?
<sabdfl> btw, happy thanksgiving to all you yanks, tomorrow
<sabdfl> jussi, it's easy for them to express interest at this stage, the test will be once we actually have product in hand
<sabdfl> so for now, it's all very encouraging
<sabdfl> but then, it would be :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> txwikinger asked: How do you think can entrepreneurs build a business model around Ubuntu in a way that it is mutually beneficial for Ubuntu and the startup?
<sabdfl> ensure that production pieces of your ubuntu deployments  are covered by Ubuntu Advantage
<sabdfl> and that's good enough for me
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> dmj726 asked: Do you see Ubuntu TV as being mainly a new platform for consuming content or do you think that making new kinds of collaboration possible should be a key part of Ubuntu TV?  An example might be a group get together with their tablets and edit video on their devices with the TV as a shared screen for showing progress and enabling discussion?
<sabdfl> the relationship between the shared screen (tv) and the personal screen (phone, tablet, pc) is v interestng, yes
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> oly_ asked: are there plans to unify apps on these devices, something like i am viewing a youtube video on my phone can i not just move the output to my tv or to a desktop computer i have often wondered why i can not move whats on my screen to another display in a simple manner
<sabdfl> good thinking gianlucadv, that sounds worth exploring further
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: Many a people have taken aversion on you saying to compete with Android with Ubuntu (both being open source siblings), Do you consider ios and other platforms Inferior(I feel they are ;-))?
<sabdfl> they are superior in some ways. they are less empowering, but we should recognise great work wherever it happens. smugness doesn't win friends or prizes.
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> Pendulum asked: how do you see Ubuntu competing in the mobile device world when voice  recognition on Linux is pretty much non-existant, but voice recognition on mobile phones is becoming a feature users want more and more?
<sabdfl> voice recognition is more a cloud service than a device feature
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> Andy80 asked: taking in consideration all the improvements incoming to Qt (with the release of Qt5), since we could have the same (or even better) effetcs in QML than we have now in Unity-3D, all of this maintaining the compatibility with non-3D computers, don't you think that keep developing two versions of Unity is a "waste" of resources? Would not be better to concentrate the effort just on the QML/Qt version of Unity?
<sabdfl> could be, andy. the unity-3d team need to show that it's worth keeping both versions in play, and the -2d team need to show they can deliver the slick vision we have for unity
<sabdfl> think of it as a bit of a race. contribute where you think you can make the biggest impact
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: There is this general feeling in people that Canonical doesn't care about Ubuntu's official derivatives(which I find to be a misnomer  as I am myself using Kubuntu 11.10 and loving it)?
<sabdfl> we cannot care about everything
<sabdfl> we devote quite alot to make the derivatives possible, but it's up to each community to step up and do the work they say they care about
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> (out of questions, waiting on the queue)
<sabdfl> phew!
<ClassBot> akshatj_ asked: Android or iOS?
<sabdfl> neither, but i plan to try recent versions of both, soon
<sabdfl> it's time for me to join the smartphone era
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: Your reaction on the latest thrashing of Micro$oft by Barnes & Noble against their way of using litigation instead of Innovations philosophy?
<sabdfl> the biggest mistake microsoft made was to decide that patents would be an effective defence against new competitors
<sabdfl> because that stops you from really innovating yourself
<sabdfl> so Microsoft wasted most of a decade, thinking they could use patents to defend the castle.
<sabdfl> Meanwhile, others were innovating for real.
<sabdfl> The whole patent system is a sham, unfortunately.
<sabdfl> Patent authorities cannot realistically do their job; it
<sabdfl> it's an impossible job to do.
<sabdfl> and the patent system has slowly been twisted to do the exact opposite of its PR
<sabdfl> it's not, as many think, a system to defend the little inventor against the big bad corporate.
<sabdfl> Instead, it's a system to ensure the big bad corporate doesn't get any scary new competition.
<sabdfl> Patents were invented to encourage inventors to publish their trade secrets, because society would benefit from the disclosure.
<sabdfl> But we now allow patents on things you could never keep secret in the first place, like software and business methods and medicines.
<sabdfl> That's insanity. Innovation happens because people solve problems, not because they might get a monopoly on it.
<sabdfl> The reason this is not being changed is simple: legislation evolves to suit those who can influence legislators. And large patent holders tend to be influential in that regard.
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> dmj726 asked: What are some examples of design either in the Ubuntu community, apps, or in general that have inspired you?
<sabdfl> the novacut folks have some really interesting ideas
<sabdfl> i like a lot of the elementary work, too
<sabdfl> the web is really the place we should look to, and games
<sabdfl> those are both fast-moving, agile, competitive, and unconstrained
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> gianlucadv asked: Recently we have seen some applications migrated from python to vala. Do you think that this trend is going to continue or that python will still be the preferred language for Ubuntu-sanctioned programs?
<sabdfl> vala is ok. Go is the future.
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> oly_ asked: will ubuntu.developer.com develop to be usefull for existing developers quickly looks awesome but it does not seem useful if you already have applications, or are there plans to move an existing project into quickly to simplyfy development
<jcastro> (ed: he means developer.ubuntu.com)
<sabdfl> no, with most frameworks, if you start out doing your own thing, it's better to keep doing that
<sabdfl> quickly is for the new guy who wants to get started, erm, quickly :-)
<sabdfl> i would encourage you just to focus on making your apps beautiful, directed, clear, purposeful
<sabdfl> and use whatever toolkit you think is effective and interesting
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> brousch asked: I love Ubuntu, but prefer Gnome Shell to Unity. Are you committed to keeping Gnome Shell supported and easy to install in Ubuntu going forward?
<sabdfl> depends how easy the Shell folks make that to achieve
<sabdfl> i'm not committed if they decide to make it very difficult, or impossible, or to continue to say things like 'Ubuntu's overlay scrollbars are not compatible with upstream Gnome' ;-)
<sabdfl> we worked hard to influence and improve the design of Shell, but it turned out the best way to achieve that was to lead, so we did, and will continue to do so
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> surgemcgee asked: Is there plans to better Compiz or abondon it as the Unity OpenGL back-end? It seems disconnected and buggy.
<sabdfl> compiz needs work, definitely
<sabdfl> but it has by far the best rendering pipeline, which lets us deliver fullscreen effects over video, for example
<sabdfl> it will improve, help gratefully accepted
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: You busted the "Power Users don't like Unity myth" in the 12.04 UDS , how much easier will it be for customizations in 12.04 natively unlike 11.10?
<sabdfl> we will have time to offer up some settings for unity in 12.04
<sabdfl> there's a list of things we're keen to see
<sabdfl> contributions of code to put those in place would be accepted
<sabdfl> but there will always be people who are upset because they cannot make the launcher bright pink
<sabdfl> tough
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> blumojo_ asked: What is Unity's next step?
<sabdfl> 12.04 LTS needs to be lovely on the desktop, and work on the new form factors will kick off
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: Is there anything to be looked forward in the "codecs may be illegal in your country" as Ubuntu aims for world domination.
<sabdfl> can't do much about the law in your country. i think the codec issue will fade as google pushes for open content
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> gianlucadv asked: in the future, will launchpad support git?
<sabdfl> the future is a very big place
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> (waiting on questions)
<ClassBot> kamilnadeem asked: Do you intend on keeping the Mustache(In my opinion it looks awesome on you)?
<sabdfl> if you guys haven't had the pleasure yet, i highly commend jorge's charm school to you :-)
<sabdfl> hell no, this rat on my face is torture, i'm *earning* those donations!
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> vibhav asked: Why is the server version of Ubuntu one closed source?
<sabdfl> server of u1 is closed source because we thought our chances of long term survival otherwise were nil. if you know better, go for it!
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> daubers asked: Any chance of further LDAP integration in Ubuntu and more ease of use of setting it up?
<ClassBot> surgemcgee asked: Is there plans for a better Terminal app. i.e. Tilda or Guake?
<jcastro> bah sorry, 2 for one!
<jcastro> (10 minutes left in the session)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> daubers, hmmm... i'm not sure on the ldap front
<sabdfl> we're going to do a business desktop remix, because lots of people want a remix without the social bits, and with stuff we wouldn't put in the main ubuntu, like flash and pdf-reader
<sabdfl> that sounds like a candidate for ldap work
<sabdfl> but
<sabdfl> remixes are just package selections, there will be no secret sauce
<sabdfl> surgemcgee__, i would love to see guake integrated into the dash, drop them a note and see if they are interested!
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> brousch asked: Canonical has a ton of good Python programmers and is using it heavily. Who do you think has more Python code in use - Canonical or Google?
<sabdfl> Gooooooooogle
<sabdfl> i think they have a lot of everything :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> dscassel asked: At UDS-O you said you would work to make the case for Project Harmony to the community. Do you feel you've done that, or will you be saying more about it? And as a spokesperson for Ubuntu, what would you suggest I say to those in the community who consider Harmony harmful?
<sabdfl> point out that, today, we have hundreds of custom agreements, few of which have been through any sort of review
<sabdfl> Harmony is like the Creative Commons, you may not agree with all the options, but it's been widely debated, reviewed, audited and approved
<sabdfl> pint out that iOS and android built huge developer ecosystems in a few years, while the GPL is still limited
<sabdfl> ask them when they will be willing to consider whether free software is enough, or whether they must keep adding impossible constraints on companies that are interested in trying it
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> candt_ asked: have you noticed that Ubuntu has dropped in the Distrowatch click ratings? (It breaks my heart to see...)
<jcastro> (Host note: distrowatch doesn't measure usage of distros, just clicks on hits to their distribution pages on their site.) - aka. not a metric. :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> kudos to mint for the jump in ratings, i'm glad ubuntu has great derivatives, and i'm confidence unity will remain the #1 desktop environment for years to come
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> gianlucadv asked: when will be able to buy a table with Ubuntu preinstalled?
<jcastro> I think he means tablet.
<jcastro> but who knows, tables!
<sabdfl> :-)
<sabdfl> gianlucadv, you'll see developer previews first, and there will be opportunities to help
<sabdfl> next
<ClassBot> vibhav asked: majority (70% to 80%) of people in Ubuntu community are still under the impression that Ubuntu is a Windows alternative; just judging from the GUI and doing everything from the GUI; they dont even know the difference between Linux and Ubuntu. What do you plan to do to resolve that?
<sabdfl> i don't know the difference between fuel diesel and jet-A1, but i enjoy cars and planes
<sabdfl> we can't expect to succeed, if we define success as making people care about the same things we do
<sabdfl> some people are passionate about lichens
<sabdfl> they know a lot more about lichens than i do
<sabdfl> i hope they aren't offended if I enjoy walking through mountains with beautiful lichen patterns
<sabdfl> and don't want to know the difference between 'em all
<sabdfl> we should celebrate users of free software, not be grumpy if they don't decide to grow a beard and learn the free software song
<sabdfl> last one!
<ClassBot> cyrildz asked: anything about a new icon theme for Precise ?  the actual icon-theme look very out ofplace with the modern look  of Unity
<sabdfl> yes, i agree, we need a new icon theme
<sabdfl> we have agreed to do a proper study on iconography, with the university of reading
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<sabdfl> and lay out a roadmap for a new icon set, which we will welcome participation
<sabdfl> phew
<jcastro> ok that's all we have for today
<sabdfl> thanks all!
<jcastro> thanks everyone for participating
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jcastro> and we'll see you next time
<jcastro> thanks sabdfl!
<jcastro> if you're a sysadmin and are looking for more IRC workshops, check out our juju charm school session next friday! https://juju.ubuntu.com/CharmSchool
<ali1234> jcastro: will that explain to me what juju is and why i would want to use it?
<jcastro> that session is for writing juju charms
<jcastro> let me get you more general info
<ali1234> i just read the FAQ
<ali1234> it didn't answer either of my questions :(
<jcastro> what questions do you have?
<ali1234> what is juju and why would i want to use it?
<jcastro> juju is a deployment tool for the cloud
<jcastro> so if let's say you want to deploy a hadoop cluster
<ali1234> ideally i would like it explained without using any of the follwng words: sevice, deployment, orchestration, cloud
<jcastro> it's like apt-get, but for a cloud instead of one machine
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so let's say you want to install wordpress.
<jcastro> you do
<jcastro> juju bootstrap
<jcastro> juju deploy wordpress
<jcastro> juju deploy mysql
<jcastro> juju add-relation wordpress mysql (this configures each one to the other)
<jcastro> then juju expost wordpress
<jcastro> er, sorry
<jcastro> juju expose wordpress
<jcastro> to open it to the world, and that's it
<ali1234> doesn't apt-get already do the majority of that stuff?
<jcastro> no
<ali1234> not that i ever installed wordpress
<jcastro> it install it, but the confiuguration and all that you still have to do
<ali1234> but eg. phpmyadmin - apt-get install it, and it works
<jcastro> plus, apt does it per machine
<jcastro> now, let's say I need to scale out
<jcastro> I can do
<jcastro> juju deploy haproxy
<jcastro> juju add-relation wordpress haproxy
<jcastro> and then just
<jcastro> juju add-unity wordpress
<jcastro> ugh, sorry, typo, juju add-unit wordpress
<jcastro> and I will have a load balanced wordpress install
<jcastro> if I do another juju add-unit wordpress I have three instances now
<stefano-palazzo> that's the last straw. I have to try it now.
<ali1234> where do the "units" come from?
<jcastro> whatever you have
<jcastro> EC2, openstack, bare metal.
<ali1234> (don't say "the cloud")
<jcastro> yes, "the cloud"
<ali1234> ok, but does it set them up for me or what?
<jcastro> for ec2 you need to put your AWS credentials in a file
<ali1234> or do they have to be preexisting virtual machines that i have access to?
<jcastro> and it just spins up instances
<ali1234> ok, that's neat
<jcastro> for openstack it's a bit complicated
<jcastro> you use juju to deploy openstack on bare metal and then juju again to put stuff on top of that
<jcastro> but it's not so bad, an experienced sysadmin can probably do that in 2-3 hours.
<jcastro> and for bare metal you just need an orchestra server
<jcastro> it will go, turn on a machine, install  the OS on it, and then whatever it needs depending on the service you deployed.
<ali1234> so a "charm" is the script that makes juju know how to deal with an app like wordpress?
<jcastro> right
<ali1234> like a deb control file?
<jcastro> it's basically the same script a sysadmin might have laying around to "deploy mediawiki" or whatever they deploy a bunch of times
<jcastro> but yeah, a control file might be a good description too
<ali1234> jcastro: thanks :)
<jcastro> wait
<jcastro> the best part
<jcastro> let's say after a while you have like, 4 mysql's running
<jcastro> and you want phpmyadmin
<jcastro> you can just
<jcastro> juju deploy phpmyadmin
<jcastro> juju add-relation phpmyadmin mysql
<jcastro> and then the mysql machines will get phpmyadmin
<jcastro> done, and done.
<jcastro> or, deploy and add nagios
<ali1234> but only if someone writes a charm that does that...
<jcastro> (note, I don't think we have a charm for phpmyadmin)
<jcastro> yeah but we already have a bunch
<ali1234> i can't see one on the list
<jcastro> http://charms.kapilt.com/charms
<jcastro> this is what we have so far
<jcastro> but we're getting there!
<fanys> hi everybody !
<vibhav> hi guys
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-24
<vibhav> sabdfl: Hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-25
 * calciumx slaps Pendulum around a bit with a large trout
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-26
<paulolieuthier> hello
<cprofitt> pleia2: ping
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-27
<paulolieuthier> hello there
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-11-22
<FireAndIce> Hi everyone!!
<FireAndIce> How do I paste mysql query output to pastebinit?
<VGoff> From terminal?
<VGoff> FireAndIce: or are you looking for a scripted way to do so?
<FireAndIce> VGoff, yes from the terminal. I got the solution. Thanks anyways..
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-11-23
<edgar_> whois Amoz
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-11-25
<Belllial> -es
<Belllial> !info
<Belllial> hola?
<Belllial> hi?
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-11-20
<TheyTookErJobs> Anyone alive? I am new to ubuntu and was hoping to find some good classes in here. I am looking at the schedule though and see nothing scheduled for months?
<syrious> hello??
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-11-20
<fos> how do I find out how much data is on the hard drive
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-11-23
<Mr> Hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-11-20
 * Aditya slaps czchen around a bit with a large fishbot
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-11-22
<Calme> c'est bien on peux pas ce fair bannir ici
