#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-05
<tgm4883> ok, who is Ian Santopietro and why am I just now seeing his Ubuntu TV mockup (via reddit btw)? I think it might be my favorite Unity mockup yet
<imnichol> link?
<tgm4883> https://plus.google.com/photos/107517157558649473024/albums/5681290039391072097
<tgm4883> I saw it as I was browsing reddit.com/r/ubuntu
<tgm4883> I still hate the login screen (the whole idea), but the rest isn't bad
<imnichol> I agree about the login screen
<imnichol> It looks pretty sweet, although that's probably because it's the best looking one so far
<tgm4883> I still think it's missing some things as well, but from a basic UI standpoint it's not bad
<imnichol> Yeah
<imnichol> I think my only issue is how the lenses would work
<tgm4883> imnichol, I think it's the horizontal launcher bar, it just feels like it's not wasting space
<tgm4883> as opposed to the vertial launcher bar
<imnichol> Which picture has the horizontal launcher?
<tgm4883> well I guess technically it isn't the launcher
<imnichol> That's the thing: it doesn't have a launcher
<tgm4883> yea
<tgm4883> it's just the bottom of the lense?
<imnichol> Looks that way
<tgm4883> the bottom horizontal bar on the netflix slide
<tgm4883> not exactly sure what to call that
<imnichol> He calls it a lens
<imnichol> https://plus.google.com/photos/107517157558649473024/albums/5681290039391072097/5681290098048169570
<imnichol> That's picture 4 there, the description calls it a lens
<imnichol> Can you do anything more than just filter files with a lens?
<tgm4883> imnichol, I hope so, otherwise we are doomed :/
<tgm4883> what happens when you search for music?
<imnichol> Lemme check ;)
<imnichol> It just brings up a list of songs and then below that a list of albums
<tgm4883> :/
<tgm4883> I'd like to see something like this http://xbmc.org/wp-content/gallery/aeon/aeon_info.jpg
<imnichol> It would be really awesome if you could implement a netflix app in a lens
<imnichol> What's the context of that picture?
<imnichol> Is it just the description for a movie?
<tgm4883> you hit info on a movie, it would bring up that screen
<imnichol> Like, the user wanted to see what the movie was about so they clicked on the "info" button and that's what showed up?
<imnichol> Oh ok great
<tgm4883> you can then play trailer, see actor info, etc
<imnichol> I've always interpreted lenses more like Libraries from Vista/7
<imnichol> If you've ever used them
<tgm4883> I've not
<imnichol> Ok
<imnichol> Huh, I"m gonna have to go look at lenses now
<imnichol> See if they might not solve a lot of our problems
<tgm4883> so there is one thing i'm worried about in this project
<tgm4883> well, two things
<tgm4883> 1) unity
<imnichol> I think we're familiar with each other's views on that ;)
<tgm4883> 2) as an extension of unity, wanting to be too different from other media centers
<tgm4883> eg...
<tgm4883> lenses show a bunch of files, and nobody likes file browsers for a media center
<imnichol> Do you know if it's possible to run XBMC in a vm?
<tgm4883> imnichol, I don't see why not
<tgm4883> you might run into issues with video playback performance
<imnichol> I just want to see the UI
<tgm4883> imnichol, regarding the file listings of lenses, I'll take this over it any time  http://xbmc.org/wp-content/gallery/aeon/aeon_multiplextv.jpg
<tgm4883> imnichol, http://xbmc.org/skins/
<tgm4883> look though Aeon and Backrow skins
<tgm4883> those are two of the fancier ones I link
<tgm4883> like*
<imnichol> While lenses could be a useful way to do things like netflix(I'm using it as an example because Ian S did), I think that just making an app for it is probably the more likely way to do it
<tgm4883> so the one thing I'd like to see from that is making the app globally searchable
<imnichol> So you go to the main dash and then type in a movie name and it finds it in netflix?
<tgm4883> so if I'm on the main screen and search for "star wars" it returns netflix, my hard drive, amazon VOD, and upcoming HBO listings
<tgm4883> yea
 * tgm4883 is a slow typer on his netbook :/
<imnichol> I doubt it would be too hard to do
<imnichol> But who knows
<tgm4883> right, I'm just not sure netflix would build that into their app if it wasn't a requirement
<imnichol> Might be possible for the app to cache the list of available movies on the HDD or something
<imnichol> But yeah, that's something they'll be doing
<imnichol> We just have to give them a fertile field to sow their seeds
<tgm4883> Well I think if there is a way to purchase things, that is incentive to build it in
<tgm4883> not so much for netflix, but for Amazon VOD it would be
<tgm4883> imnichol, have you used netflix on other devices (xbox/ps3/tv)?
<imnichol> Used it about 5 seconds ago on a Blue-Ray player
<tgm4883> imnichol, ok, so you know how that gets set up then
<tgm4883> how you don't have to login
<imnichol> Yeah
<tgm4883> I think that is the way we need to connect a TV to U1
<tgm4883> rather than having a login screen
<imnichol> Can you elaborate?  I think I understand but I want to make sure
<tgm4883> so the TV generates a code, then you go to ubuntuone.com/activate and insert the code from the TV
<tgm4883> it then attaches it to your account
<imnichol> Wouldn't that require buy-in from the TV manufacturers?
<tgm4883> that way you don't  have to deal with an on screen keyboard
<tgm4883> imnichol, no, it would be a feature of UbuntuTV (software)
<imnichol> Ohhhh ok, the UTV, not the actual tv itself?
<tgm4883> exactly
<imnichol> Hm I think I'm with you
<imnichol> Ok
<imnichol> My housemate just explained it to me
<tgm4883> I could see doing that with multiple U1 accounts as well for family's that share content
<imnichol> That reminds me: I have an issue with accounts where I don't necessarily want my housemate to see what kind of movies I watch
<tgm4883> hmm
<imnichol> Or a better example: what if I have personal data on U1 that I don't want my housemates to see, how do we prevent that from getting accessed while still making U1 useful?
<tgm4883> That does bring up an interesting point, how to "hide" content
<tgm4883> imnichol, that sounds like a job for ACLs :/
<imnichol> I'm wondering about using NFC/bluetooth to pair a UPhone/UTablet to a UTV that would allow my U1 content to be accessed, and then allow me to revoke that permission when I walk away from the TV
<imnichol> But then that kind of creates a problem with U1 syncing files to the tv, does it just not sync until I try to access a file?
<tgm4883> While in theory that would work, that is what LinuxMCE tried to do and after discussing it with them it didn't work too well
<imnichol> Am I making sense?
<tgm4883> even though bluetooth has a short range, it is still too far for that
<imnichol> yeah
<tgm4883> there are two sides to that
<tgm4883> 1) sync always, which means your content is there when you aren't at the system/logged in
<tgm4883> 2) sync when item selected, which means you are waiting for it to download a bit before you can watch
<imnichol> Exactly
<tgm4883> #1 is already in U1
<tgm4883> #2 is how netflix does it
<imnichol> #1 is less secure, unless we allow people to encrypt the fs
<tgm4883> imnichol, true
<imnichol> Since my housemates could just pull the hdd from the UTV, mount it, and then steal all the videos of me lip-synching Britney Spears ;)
<tgm4883> imnichol, The issue is we can't complicate it too much.
<imnichol> We're really ending up dealing with two different issues here:
<imnichol> A.) Authentication
<imnichol> B.) Security
<tgm4883> Would a PIN suffice?
<tgm4883> or do you want full authentication?
<imnichol> It really depends
<tgm4883> actually, that doesn't matter. This would work either way
<tgm4883> what about this
<tgm4883> In U1, you have ACL's for a folder and can set it as requiring a PIN/PASS for a specific UbuntuTV
<tgm4883> that way, you could access it without a PIN in the TV in your room, but the TV in the family room requires a PIN for those folders
<tgm4883> it's more setup, but only if you want to do that. There should be a default value you can set
<dmj726> I like a lot of the mockup's style
<dmj726> not convinced on the lack of multitasking
<tgm4883> dmj726, is there a need for true multitasking?
<tgm4883> dmj726, I'm assuming by multitasking, you are talking split screen stuff?
<dmj726> In my experience, actually making multitasking integrate nicely makes things simpler.
<tgm4883> I guess define multitasking, as it's still a computer and would have the ability to multitask
<dmj726> tgm4883: Split screen might be nice later, but I think quick, switching and not having to restart an app all the time is a good thing
<tgm4883> dmj726, well that goes into how much of a computer this is and how external apps are supported
<tgm4883> at that extent, I've not heard many arguments either way
<imnichol> FWIW, I use Unity in much the same way that I imagine people would us the UTV
<imnichol> I have one application maximized at a time, and then use the launcher to switch between running apps
<dmj726> I think it should have the full capabilities of a computer, though it should present them in a streamlined way
<imnichol> So when you say "not having to restart an app", that's not really what happens anyway
<tgm4883> I agree with imnichol, I don't see why we would be killing an app if we switch screens
<tgm4883> that said, these are low powered systems, so we have to do something
<dmj726> tgm4883: My thought, make it easy to see what applications are open, and quickly stop ones you don't need anymore
<tgm4883> dmj726, yes, but what if I don't close any apps ever?
<dmj726> also have a nice way for apps to know if they have focus, so developers can play nice
<imnichol> Although, the raspberry pi costs like $35 and I guess it can do desktop unity at 1080p, so we could probably use more ram/a bigger cpu and get rid of a lot of the issues with apps being open
<dmj726> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2fEATD7tHM
<dmj726> Well, n900 can handle quite a lot and it's running a 2 year old single core chip
<dmj726> Usually I like to keep it to 16 application windows or less to avoid clutter
<imnichol> Maybe if the system runs out of memory it just closes the oldest app?
<tgm4883> dmj726, it is truly multitasking? or is it pausing apps when not in focus
<dmj726> truly multitasking
<dmj726> some apps choose to pause out of consideration
<mhall119> tgm4883: imnichol: regarding a Netflix lens, it would make more sense to add a Netflix scope to the Videos lens
<tgm4883> so now we're again dealing with needing apps to be made for UbuntuTV?
<mhall119> so that when you search for a video, it'll check your local files, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, etc
<tgm4883> mhall119, I'm guessing that is just another area it can search/
<tgm4883> ?
<tgm4883> ok
<mhall119> yes
<tgm4883> so we had the idea, just not the terminology
<mhall119> but it would be better to have the lenses per-content type, not per-source
<tgm4883> right, which is what we want
<dmj726> tgm4883: Well we need to provide well-integrated applications for basic functions regardless of how we do it.  Making it easy for third-party applications to be run as well can only help us.
<mhall119> the mockups you guys were talking about had it per-source
<dmj726> Yeah, per content type makes sense
<dmj726> though we should be able to filter it per source
<imnichol> mhall119, I was talking per-source because that's the paradigm that Ian S was using, I'm in favor of whatever works best
<mhall119> likewise NPR would feed the Music/Audio lense
<tgm4883> mhall119, right, but we discussed searching for a video, and getting returns from multiple sources (and that is how my mockup is :) )
<mhall119> tgm4883: ok, just wanted to clarify, thanks
<tgm4883> mhall119, yep, we're on the same page
<imnichol> I think that Netflix is going to have to be an application just because of the DRM issue
<tgm4883> imnichol, I agree, but just because it's an app doesn't mean it can't show results in a lense right?
<imnichol> Yeah but I was just reading that Netflix only shows results that correspond to the geographic location of the user
<imnichol> So I think that it would require some "search time" for the UTV to contact the netflix servers and get back the data
<imnichol> But that's not the end of the world
<tgm4883> imnichol, yea I don't think there is an issue with search time. It could probably list results while still returning some
<AlanBell> http://rewiredstate.org/events/social-tv-education
<mhall119> repete: would you mind introducing yourself, so everybody knows you?
<ogra_> there are people that dont know him ?
<ogra_> :P
<mhall119> well I didn't until recently, so probably
 * ogra_ wasnt serious :)
<daker> ogra_, i don't know him ã
<daker> or here
<tgm4883> I think it's obvious. repete is the younger of the two brothers from the old show "The Adventures of Pete & Pete" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Pete_%26_Pete
<repete> tgm4883, indeed :-)
<repete> In addition, I'm a product manager in Canonical's Product Strategy group looking at (among other things) Ubuntu on the TV
<repete> The level of interest in this channel is fantastic :-)
<repete> An I'm excited to work on this particular category because it is something I looked at a few years ago
 * tgm4883 marks down the known canoncial employees as 3
<tgm4883> Actually I haven't seen WillCooke in awhile
<repete> Please forgive me if I lurk.  I'm currently working toward a deadline (unrelated)
<tgm4883> no worries
<tgm4883> popey, can we get another etherpad?
<popey> sure, just go to http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/SomeName  where 'SomeName' is the page name, it will create one
<popey> ^ tgm4883
<tgm4883> sweet, thanks
<popey> tgm4883: if you want a who's who, k aleo, kenvandine, m hall119, o gra_, myself, r epete, s laden work for canonical (split names to avoid highligting)
<popey> sorry kenvandine âº
<kenvandine> popey, :)
<tgm4883> So this is a few things (non-UI related) we've been discussing and my ideas. I think we should probably keep a list of issues and possible ways to fix them  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV-Issues
<tgm4883> feel free to add/edit that list
<tgm4883> which is why it's on etherpad ;)
<tgm4883> imnichol, I know we were discussing a bunch of that the other night ^
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV-Issues | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<imnichol> Oh hey.  Yeah, we did discuss a lot of that
<tgm4883> imnichol, yea, I figure we probably should be writing some of that down :)
<imnichol> Yeah, much better than reading the logs every time I forget something
<imnichol> Good call
<mhall119> http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/11/12/05/1912214/tv-isnt-broken-so-why-fix-it?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
<MrChrisDruif> I'm......not even gonna respond to that =P
<AlanBell> sounds about right to me
<AlanBell> the main thing driving TV features is the need to sell people new TVs
<mhall119> I think the game-changer will be when we stop thinking in terms of channels and timeslots
<mhall119> which my kids already have
<mhall119> on our last vacation, they thought the hotels new flatscreen TV was old because it didn't have a pause and rewind option
<mhall119> and they have no concept of their desired show being "not on right now'
<MrChrisDruif> =)
<MrChrisDruif> Great, kids these days. Same with digital camera's
<MrChrisDruif> They don't get it when you come with an old analog camera...they want to see the results on the screen, but are greatly surprised when there isn't one
<tgm4883> AlanBell, +1
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: yeah, it is funny when they go running over to look at the picture on the back of the camera and it isn't there!
<MrChrisDruif> ='P
<mhall119> my first digital didn't have an LCD either
<AlanBell> I remember in an airport in America we had to phone grandad to tell him what time we were landing, I gave my daughter the payphone handset and she started talking then decided to run over to mummy with it. She was astonished and furious that some idiot had tied the phone to the wall!
<mhall119> lol
<AlanBell> she had never seen a phone with a wire on it before
<mhall119> pretty soon they won't know what to do with a non-touch UI either
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<MrChrisDruif> Ring-dialer anyone? =D
<dmj726> Well, I suspect that TV will feel very broken in retrospect if major improvements are made
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: I think some people have made ring dialer apps for touchscreen phones
<mhall119> dmj726: exactly, if there's one thing that Apple proved, it's that the mp3 players and smartphones people didn't think were broken, actually were
<dmj726> Yeah
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, but their Apple TV didn't really catch on ;-)
<dmj726> Hehe, means we have a chance
<mhall119> their first Apple TV was just an set-top iTunes store
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, but indeed
<mhall119> IMO, if you're going to spend hundreds of dollars on a new set-top box, the content better be free
<mhall119> or at least flat-rate like Netflix
<mhall119> I don't mind the occasional pay-per-view or on-demand purchase, but the majority of the content should be free
<mhall119> stuff like hulu and youtube
<mhall119> if the box came with a year's subscription to Netflix, that would rock
<tgm4883> I don't think it's coming with a year sub to netflix
<mhall119> I guess it depends on whether we're targeting a consumer device, or something that'll be on the boxes given out by the network operators
<mhall119> in other words, are we going to distribute this through BestBuy, Comcast, or Cisco?
<mhall119> repete: ^^ your thoughts on that?
<repete> mhall119, where does this discussion begin? :-)
<mhall119> repete: wanting to know how content could be delivered through Ubuntu TV
<repete> nm... reading the back chat
<repete> well the question seems to be whether it would be free content or paid/subscription
<repete> tbh, I'm not sure I know enough yet to say definitively but this is a complex market and the current players are threatened by anyone providing free content
<dmj726> my suggestion: yes
<AlanBell> repete: what do you want to do with Ubuntu on the TV?
<repete> also, I think the fact that people are willing to either buy a DVD of a show or purchase a season pass on iTunes proves people don't mind paying for broadcast shows if they don't have to sit through adverts.
<AlanBell> is this something the OEM team will be taking to TV manufacturers, or set top boxes, or is it a DIY thing that people will put on a homebrew media centre?
<repete> AlanBell, it is too early to tell.  There is certainly a vibrant homebrew community as proven by Boxee and MythTV
<repete> AlanBell, I would guess it will be a combination of both.  I don't see why not.
<AlanBell> sure, but what is your product strategy for monetising this?
<repete> AlanBell, we only announced this initiative a month ago and this isn't my only product. ;-)
<repete> Don't mean to be rude guys, but I'm still scrambling to finish a presentation for a 9 am meeting tomorrow morning.
<imnichol> Personally I'm not sure that UTV will survive if it's not sold in stores
<imnichol> Who's going to write an app for a target market of a few thousand?
<dmj726> I would suggest that this be installed by OEMs but where someone could easily install it if they wanted
<repete> Parting question:  How can we provide a platform to easily consume web content (i.e. videos on Vimeo) without resorting to opening a web browser and without alienating the content owner who pays for that content through display ads?
<repete> Free content isn't really free.  It has to be paid for somehow.
<imnichol> Personally, if I buy a device, I expect it to be ad-free
<imnichol> I pay money for the ability to not have ads
<mhall119> repete: if we are targetting Cisco, then we don't need to worry about providing content, just a platform
<mhall119> but finish your presentation first
<AlanBell> if the content includes ads then the ads get played
<AlanBell> the interesting things happen when someone wants to take action on an ad
<mhall119> imnichol: I see UTV being like Android, in that it's the foundation for OEMs to build devices that are sold through network providers
<dmj726> Hmm...honestly, this should be up to whoever is providing the content.
<AlanBell> or if you want user-aware advertising
<imnichol> mhall119, The problem with android is that IOS is killing them
<mhall119> imnichol: no it's not
<AlanBell> this video is being played by Alan, he bought new shoes last week, lets play him a sock advert
<dmj726> So we can obviously provide some content avenues ourselves, with the ability for OEMs or the user to add additional outlets
<imnichol> Because OEM manufacturers make Android suck
<AlanBell> oh look some new socks, they would go well with my new shoes, <click>
<AlanBell> socks arrive next day, content starts playing
<imnichol> If UTV is going to not be the bottom-shelf option, Canonical is going to have to flex their muscle enough that OEMs leave it as stock
<dmj726> We probably will need to impose some requirements on OEMs to brand something as an Ubuntu TV
<AlanBell> so that kind of scenario matters a *lot* how the thing is distributed, whether it is an OEM platform or whether canonical wants a cut of advertising revenue
<mhall119> dmj726: or at least make the branding so un-imposing and the sytling to nice that they want to leave it alone
<imnichol> Personally I think that Canonical should just sell them directly in stores
<mhall119> AlanBell: IMO, Canonical trying to get a cut of advertising is a bad idea
<mhall119> Verizon dumped a lot of money to get a piece of that pie, and when I was working there I heard that they weren't projecting to break even for 20 years
<dmj726> So an OEM could use the code base with big changes and do all new branding unrelated to Ubuntu or keep certain key aspects stock and brand it as UTV
<AlanBell> mhall119: I think so too
<imnichol> dmj726, That seems like the best option
<mhall119> dmj726: even with all the rebranding done on Android devices, they still keep a consistent set of controls and visuals
<dmj726> The most important component to keep stock is software center
<dmj726> after that is Unity
<mhall119> and since most of Unity's visual identity is based on functionality, I think a lot of that would stay
<mhall119> right, software center will be big, but that's also what the networks will not want
<dmj726> OEMs can add third party repositories and sources of content, but they a) can't remove any and b) can't restrict the user adding any
<mhall119> I think it'll take an Apple tv product forcing them to accept a 3rd party app store
<dmj726> mhall119: networks won't like it, but I don't see a point to Ubuntu devices if we lose that
<mhall119> dmj726: agreed
<AlanBell> so it makes a huge difference if this is an integrated TV thing, or a set top box in terms of who the "customer" is
<dmj726> They can make a debranded device if they want to restrict repos
<AlanBell> and as always the customer is not the person watching the TV
<mhall119> I remember the run-up to the iPhone hearing about how hard it was for Apple to get AT&T to agree to not have total control over the app store
<AlanBell> the customer is the OEM
<mhall119> but with indicators and the launcher APIs, they won't be able to change much of the interface and still keep it a desirable target platform for developers
<imnichol> Why won't networks like 3rd party repos?
<mhall119> hulu
<mhall119> netflix
<mhall119> youtube
<imnichol> Oh ok
<imnichol> Content networks, not cable networks
<mhall119> it's net neutrality all over again
<AlanBell> it *could* be something disruptive like content providors bypassing the networks
<mhall119> imnichol: cable networks get a share of advertising revenue from the content they deliver, not from Netflix, Youtube, etc
<mhall119> AlanBell: when we get critical mass, that's what will happen
<imnichol> So what are they going to do, not stream their channels?
<AlanBell> mhall119: I mean it could be a set-top-box branded hulu/netflix/youtube
<imnichol> Seems to me that our primary concern should be Netflix/Hulu creating their applications
<dmj726> imnichol: not streaming will only lead to them becoming irrelevant
<mhall119> the networks will become bandwidth providers only, not content providers
<mhall119> content providers wouldn't make deals with network providers anymore
<imnichol> mhall119, When you say "cable networks" do you mean Comcast/AT&T/etc?  Or NBC/ABC/CBS?
<mhall119> which means the networks won't get add revenue, so expect your internet prices to go up
<mhall119> imnichol: Comcast, AT&T, Brighthouse
<imnichol> Oh ok
<imnichol> ISPs
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> that's all they'll become too
<imnichol> Thanks, that clarifies it
<mhall119> which they don't want to happen
<mhall119> they don't want to become a commodity service provider
<dmj726> We won't be distributed as a "cable box" I don't think
<mhall119> I think that's the easiest route, actually
<AlanBell> hence my question
<dmj726> We'll either be a set top box in stores or or integrated into TV sets
<imnichol> Agreed
<AlanBell> it *could* be something targetted at the old school networks to keep them in the game with competition from content providors
<mhall119> AlanBell: it would, if we get enough content providers on board
<mhall119> which brings us back to a year's subscription to Netflix if we're selling boxes in stores
<mhall119> get Hulu pre-installed, stuff like that
<dmj726> but those providers will want to lock it down, maybe make it *only* do cable tv
<AlanBell> or it could be targetted at an OEM to help them sell more 50" TVs
<dmj726> help sell 50" TVs
<mhall119> dmj726: they'll want to, but like cell carriers, I think they will be forced to give that up
<dmj726> Also, there are a significant number of people without cable or satellite subscriptions who don't want one
<mhall119> dmj726: what would they have for broadband internet?
<dmj726> they have internet, but not a TV subscription
<imnichol> I'm one of them
<mhall119> where do they get internet?
<dmj726> same here
<dmj726> usually a DSL provider
<mhall119> are there any major DSL providers that aren't selling tv service now too?
<dmj726> TV is either internet or over the air based
<AlanBell> mhall119: there are here
<imnichol> There are plenty of cable companies that just sell internet access
<dmj726> well, ATT doesn't provide TV everywhere they provide internet
<mhall119> yeah, I'm not sure how tv business works in the UK, since so much of yours is publically funded
<dmj726> and I'd be loathe to tie UTV to a specific TV subscription offering
<AlanBell> mhall119: the BBC just do a few channels, I have a sky dish and get loads of non-bbc channels with adverts as well as the BBC channels via sky
<dmj726> now being able to get TV signals is one thing
<AlanBell> I have fibre to the cabinet DSL broadband, but no TV through that
<mhall119> I still think taking the Android route is a good idea, give OEM's a good platform with lots of developer buy-in, let them make cable boxes based on that, and sell them through the TV providers
<AlanBell> some people have cable TV, but not masses here
<mhall119> also we can have OEMs sell boxes directly to consumers
<dmj726> I say, let TV providers be *one* source of UTV, but also get OEMs to put it inside TV sets and other set top boxes
<AlanBell> can they be subsidised down to nothing by someone?
<mhall119> maybe get to the point where AT&T is advertising that they offer Ubuntu TV boxes to their subscribers
<imnichol> mhall119, what type of businesses do you mean when you say OEMs?
<mhall119> AlanBell: could be
<dmj726> personally, I would buy one direct
<imnichol> Are we talking like HTC/Sanyo in the same way that they make cell phones?
<mhall119> imnichol: I have Brighthouse for cable tv, they rent me a box made by Cisco
<AlanBell> mhall119: so that is really my product strategy question, who do you want to pay for this so that the consumer doesn't think it is them
<dmj726> So you might buy that new Samsung TV, which has UTV built in.
<mhall119> AlanBell: I want the network operator to pay for it, and tack it on to the customer's bill
<imnichol> mhall119, what country do you live in?
<mhall119> USA
<imnichol> Ok
<AlanBell> ok, so like the "free" sky box I have
<dmj726> I don't want that at all
<mhall119> almost every Android phone here is subsidized by a 2 year contract with your network provider, Ubuntu TV boxes can be sold the same way
<dmj726> "free" things never are
<mhall119> nope
<AlanBell> but on the plus side it can be Free
<dmj726> that's why all the shit on android phones
<imnichol> mhall119, the race to the bottom is never good
<mhall119> but the cable operators might want to offer a line of different model boxes at different prices, like cell carriers do
<imnichol> The problem with letting OEMs do whatever they want is you get the android effect: some no-name OEM makes their own special-snowflake GUI theme and then doesn't have the resources to correctly manage their changes...
<dmj726> then people just get the cheap one with basic access and call UTV crap
<imnichol> ...then you get cheap stuttery android phones
<imnichol> I think dmj726 and I are arguing the same point
<mhall119> imnichol: like I said, they'll have to leave the launcher and top-panel mostly as-is if they want application compatibility
<imnichol> mhall119, Then what happens if the OEM decides to pull a CarrierIQ and throw a bunch of their own software on there?
<imnichol> People see that, see the Ubuntu branding, and decide it's worthless and tacky
<dmj726> Ubuntu should refuse use of their trademark unless specific conditions are met.
<mhall119> imnichol: when I see people abandoning Android phones, then I'll worry about that
<imnichol> Look at the overall marketshare of IOS/Android...
<mhall119> some people are, sure, but not in mass
<dmj726> Unity, Software Center, and complete control over application installation.
<imnichol> I don't have a problem with OEMs using UTV as long as they aren't allowed to call it Ubuntu or anything
<AlanBell> not really up to you though :)
<dmj726> AlanBell: It's up to canonical
<AlanBell> indeed
<imnichol> I wish we had a Canonical employee here to answer that question
<dmj726> yeah
<dmj726> honestly, it's likely to be our biggest differentiator over the long run
<mhall119> imnichol: I'm not sure Canonical has settled on an answer to that question yet
<imnichol> Can you back it up or just a gut feeling?
<mhall119> which is why this discussion is important, it'll help in the decision making
<mhall119> imnichol: gut feeling, I'm not involved in that part of the company
<imnichol> "back it up" = "are you in on some info"
<imnichol> Ok
<AlanBell> 22:13 < repete> AlanBell, we only announced this initiative a month ago and this isn't my only product. ;-)
<mhall119> but from re-pete's responses so far, that's the impression I get
<mhall119> AlanBell: and I went through all the trouble to avoid pinging him
<mhall119> :P
<mhall119> imnichol: you can probably think of us as the community side of the product stategy
<mhall119> imnichol:  "Comscore says that as of August, 43.7 percent of U.S. smartphone subscribers had an Android device; 27.7 percent had an iPhone."
<mhall119> http://news.cnet.com/8301-33200_3-57323943-290/ios-vs-android-lots-of-stats-little-clarity/
<imnichol> The problem is that android is a commodity market with profit that's measured in pennies
<mhall119> yup
<imnichol> Whereas Apple doesn't have that problem with idevices
<mhall119> less if you calculate patent blackmail
<mhall119> but pennies per copy is still more than we're selling Ubuntu for
<imnichol> And the fact that it's a commodity market is apprent to the people buying phones, not necessarily consciously, but unconsciously
<imnichol> Sit a random consumer down and let them play with an iphone 4s and whatever the android devices of the moment is.  They'll tell you that the iphone is a better product
<imnichol> And I think a lot of that has to do with OEMs who ship old versions of android
<mhall119> possibly, and OEMs who make bad hardware too
<mhall119> but the choice is get the most OEM buy-in, or try to muscle our way into the hardware market
<imnichol> Reminder that a Raspberry Pi costs $35
<mhall119> there's a lot more logistics behind being a hardware company than just the cost of components
<imnichol> I see the hardware market as something that is going to be a lot easier to enter in the next year than it has been
<imnichol> But I see what you're saying
<imnichol> A good compromise between the two would be that Canonical allows OEMs to say it's a UTV if it meets minimum hardware/software requirements
<mhall119> yeah, that might work
<imnichol> It has to have a certain amount of ram/proc/hdd and run the latest versions of everything and blah blah blah technicalities
<dmj726> if hardware is solid and it has Unity and software center unmodified it's good
<MrChrisDruif> Are we still on the balance on set-top boxes or TV integration?
<imnichol> We kind of drifted away from that but I feel like going back unless anyone else minds
<mhall119> karate time, bbl
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I'd say 90% set-top boxes
<mhall119> they're easier to replace when a new model comes out
<MrChrisDruif> New model? Of what? UTV?
<mhall119> the box
<mhall119> newer/faster processor, more ram, better graphics hardware
<mhall119> upgrade the set-top box for $300-$500, or upgrade the 50" TV for $3000
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, yeah..
<dmj726> mhall119: I'd be fine either way
<dmj726> To me it's more about the provider of the box than the shape of the box/TV combo
<MrChrisDruif> In this consummation driven community around the world, people probably will want a new TV with new technologies
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, that is all in HOW the TV will be designed
<MrChrisDruif> If all the "working" bits are for instance in the bottom section, not hard to replace, then it can easily be integrated
<MrChrisDruif> into the TV
<dmj726> or if the TV can recieve firmware updates
<MrChrisDruif> That can already happen ;-)
<dmj726> so 3 year old TV can get new features by installing Ubuntu 17.10
<MrChrisDruif> But I thought mhall119 was talking about new hardware to speed up etc...
<dmj726> it could be both
<dmj726> so your existing hardware is software upgradable
<dmj726> but if you want say a TV set that can be made faster by a swappable box in the base, that's possible too
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know if this is a good idea, but maybe a new standard, just like computer hardware, for upgrading purposes
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: yes, though I doubt we'll get this in the first iteration
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, one can dream, can't he? =)
<MrChrisDruif> It's still in two years time, it's time to become the new Apple in a way
<MrChrisDruif> "Nothing's on the telly" O_O
<MrChrisDruif> I got excited by the idea thou O_O, standardized hardware for TV's
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-06
<mhall119> software upgradable hardware?  What kind of hardware do you have?
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<MrChrisDruif> Is not what I meant =')
<MrChrisDruif> I meant that hardware already can get firmware upgrades
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; ^
<mhall119> oh, and here I was trying to apt-get install more-ram
<willcooke> http://smart-home-blog.com/2011/12/02/new-lenovo-ideacentre-q180-htpc/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+smart-home-blog+%28Smart+Home+Blog%29
<willcooke> interesting, Lenovo getting in on the HTPC thing
<mhall119> holy hell, who came up with that remote control design?
<mhall119> I can't imagine anybody would feel comfortable using that
<tgm4883> mhall119, I've seen one, they aren't that bad
<tgm4883> that image makes it look uncomfortable though
<willcooke> :)
<willcooke> BTW guys, I realise I've been conspicuous by my absence over the last couple of weeks.  I'm putting plans in place to address that asap....
<willcooke> just need to get a few other things put away first.
<mhall119> willcooke: when you and repete have time, perhaps we can hold a scheduled discussion time to try and get everybody here at the same time?
<willcooke> mhall119, certainly - that sounds like a great idea.
<willcooke> I'll push to get that set up early next week, and I'll make an announcement or something on the mailing list
<MrChrisDruif> Also add it to the Fridge
<willcooke> I'd guess that around this sort of time would be best for most people
<MrChrisDruif> I posted something earlier about weekly meetings, but no-one gave any response whatsoever
<willcooke> MrChrisDruif, good idea.  Who's got access to the fridge door?
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; I know how to add stuff on that
 * MrChrisDruif should be warming-up dinner, so he goes on doing that
<willcooke> MrChrisDruif, I didn't see your message I'm afriad, I think it might have got lost in the heated debate that was going on :)
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00016.html
<willcooke> Thx MrChrisDruif - well, I'll aim for that slot next week.
<willcooke> I'll come back with a confirmation one way or the other asap
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, just let me know
<MrChrisDruif> Tonight I'll be of for orchestra rehearsal
<willcooke> MrChrisDruif, cool - have fun!
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks willcooke =)
<AlanBell> o/ willcooke
<willcooke> howdy AlanBell
<tgm4883> comedic, but IMO relevant to the 3D discussion   http://theoatmeal.com/blog/3d_movies
<mhall119> ah theoatmeal, so crude and yet so right
<willcooke> ha!
<dmj726> Well, I think 3D has its place, but I'm not sure it should be an immediate priority for us
<willcooke> agreed - I don't think 3D is out of the gimmick phase quite yet
<dmj726> I've seen a couple films enhanced by 3D, and one to which 3D was essential
<dmj726> That said, we're still somewhat in the gimmick phase, though most films are less gimmicky about it than 3D films of prior decades
<willcooke> It's interesting, things like "Jaws 3D" were piss poor certainly, but I get the impression some modern day 3D films were made in 3D only because they could charge a few extra bucks to see them, rather than being designed to benefit from 3d directly.
<willcooke> That said, I've never actually seen a modern 3D movie
<willcooke> :)
<willcooke> I refuse to be taken in by the shameless money grabbing
<willcooke> I'm sticking it to the man!
<dmj726> hehe
<dmj726> willcooke: the shameless postconversion is rather questionable
<willcooke> definitely
<dmj726> A few directors actually do a good job using it as an enhancement to already quality work, like Martin Scorsesee's Hugo.
<AlanBell> I have no idea how they do that
<AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2D_to_3D_Conversion
<AlanBell> now I do :)
<willcooke> and so do I
<dmj726> Cave of Forgotten Dreams isn't the same film in 2D as in 3D, but that's because it's documenting these ancient cave paintings and in 3D it feels like you're actually in the cave with the paintings.
<dmj726> of course the last one won't be breaking box office records
<willcooke> :D
<tgm4883> dmj726, I'll have to take a look at that. I don't think I understand why if you are looking at cave paintings (paintings on a wall) that it would look different in 3d rather than 2d
<dmj726> tgm4883: The cave walls are highly curved
<tgm4883> also, I'm not 100% sure how that would extend to other genres in a meaningful way
<dmj726> and the curves are important to the way the people painted on them
<tgm4883> I'll have to see it
<dmj726> tgm4883: I'm not saying it would apply to other genres
<tgm4883> It's like IMAX, it only applies to some very specific films
<dmj726> just that it is possible to have 3D be an important artistic tool for a film
<dmj726> Personally, I think most 3D films are just doing it for the money, but I don't doubt that there will be some films for which it is clearly better
<dmj726> it also could be useful for certain kinds of software
<dmj726> I'm not suggesting we devote much effort to 3D support right now though
<dmj726> just not writing it off
<dmj726> especially given that it has been used much more artistically recently than in the past
<dmj726> (Alfred Hitchcock excepted of course)
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-07
<L-----D> Hi, I just join the launchpad project, but I'm not very clear what the project goal is
<MrChrisDruif> L-----D; the ultimate goal of the project is getting Ubuntu with a nice interface on TV's =)
<MrChrisDruif> However, currently we're just creating and discussing mock-ups for the interface
<MrChrisDruif> As you can see in the topic we've also got a feature list and a nice wiki page with some more (helpful*) information (*=I hope it's helpful at least)
<L-----D> MrChrisDruif,  hi I've go through that
<L-----D> But I'm not clear about the architecture design
<MrChrisDruif> Ow, I forgot; Aloha
<MrChrisDruif> Architecture design?
<L-----D> see, the feature list is just some common things which every TV OSs will have
<MrChrisDruif> Will have?
<MrChrisDruif> I hope so, but currently not all features are provided by TV's
<L-----D> already have ;D
<L-----D> yes, I mean some media center system, like XBMC GeeXBOX MediaPortal Google TV Apple TV
<L-----D> such
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, like that. Well that's all fine and dandy of course...but how many settop-boxes or TV come with these features?
<MrChrisDruif> But besides software we're also thinking about the hardware side of it
<L-----D> like runing on x86 system or arm system?
<MrChrisDruif> "I" think ARM, but don't abandon x86(_64) just yet
<L-----D> well, I'm tring to develop a UPnP/DLNA media server (and beyond that)
<L-----D> I've tested most MediaCenter system I mentioned before
<MrChrisDruif> And what can you tell us about them?
<L-----D> One thing I'd like to say is, you may want a Client-Server design
<MrChrisDruif> In terms of server storage?
<MrChrisDruif> I don't get your drift I think =)
<L-----D> like at this : http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/2_MEDIAPORTAL_2/Contribute/Development/2_Architecture
<L-----D> a center server will not only act as a media storage server, sync user information, but also expands the future implemntion
<MrChrisDruif> L-----D; I understand your standing in it, but we can't force people to buy/run a server if they only want a TV
<L-----D> yes, I agree,  you can make it either standalone or client
<L-----D> but think about the home automation (you've already mention is the list)
<MrChrisDruif> But would it be possible to "easily" move the server part to a server?
<MrChrisDruif> I added it ;-)
<L-----D> you mean move to the cloud
<MrChrisDruif> No, I mean this scenario: people buy a tv with UbuntuTV pre-installed (woohoo, yeah!) but have (or buy later) a server to expand usage of the TV
<MrChrisDruif> (Does this make any sense?)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, they naturally want to move the server-side of UTV to the UServer...can this be done easily?
<L-----D> if people only have a UbuntuTV, some functions will certainly not possible, like I can have a asterisk on my server side
<L-----D> you can deside which function belong to server or client, there maybe some overlap like Watch/Record TV
<MrChrisDruif> Asterisk is a full-time app I believe? Serving like a callcenter right?
<L-----D> yeah, you can tunel your phone call to your TV through SIP (or something else) I believe
<L-----D> some fulltime/heavy service should reside on server, like most home automation functions
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed, I envisioned it more like an client-side app
<L-----D> MS also have a Windows Home Server, I believe they alreay have good plan for it
<MrChrisDruif> Controlling the server through a nice GUI on the TV
<MrChrisDruif> They had a good plan for it...last thing I heard wasn't very positive
<L-----D> maybe not, because they don't have Jobs ;D
<L-----D> MrChrisDruif, are you wokring for the Ubuntu Company
<MrChrisDruif> I wish, but I don't have the knowledge/skills for it.
<MrChrisDruif> Heck, I'm not even an Ubuntu Member
<L-----D> so is this project supported offically by Ubuntu
<tgm4883> I believe the current idea is that any sort of sync would be done though U1, storage is a completely separate issue that could be U1, SMB/NFS shares, etc
<tgm4883> L-----D, define "supported officially"
<L-----D> U1 means UbuntuTV 1st realease?
<MrChrisDruif> No, it means Ubuntu One
<L-----D> OK
<MrChrisDruif> The file-syncing app/service of Ubuntu
<L-----D> tgm4883, once this project is widely used, it may need a special package/app source to install apps designed to runing on TV
<L-----D> tgm4883, I think the same thing applied to Ubuntu Phone
<tgm4883> L-----D, that is something we've already discussed and may have a solution for
<L-----D> Ok
<L-----D> and there some products fork from XBMC, you want to build it from ground or what
<MrChrisDruif> L-----D; we've never said (well, we've said it but quickly moved away from it) that we wanted to build from scratch
<tgm4883> L-----D, there isn't a concensus on that yet, but the leaning of the room is toward making it Unity based
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; it'll be Unity based, but what software we could use is in discussion =)
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, wouldn't we be using Unity if it was Unity based?
<tgm4883> I think thats the point of the word 'based' ;)
<MrChrisDruif> Well, Unity is the dash/DE. The software that makes the recording, the software that controls your Home Automation etc...is that Unity?
<tgm4883> ah I see
<tgm4883> No, it would be a Unity HA plugin  to some HA backend
<tgm4883> it would feel like unity though to the user
<MrChrisDruif> Well...I'm not sure current Unity is a good 10' (3m) interface for TV =)
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: current Unity isn't
<mhall119> that's why we have this channel and the over-arching project
<mhall119> to make it a good 10' interface
<MrChrisDruif> But how can we change Unity without it affecting it for "normal" Desktop usage?
<mhall119> that's the question we're trying to answerr
<mhall119> it won't be 100% identical, but if we can keep it 90% identical we'll have succeeded
<mhall119> I would imagine a lot of the UX changes that get proposed for uTV will also improve the UX of desktop Unity
<mhall119> same with uPhone
<imnichol> One of the benefits of using different repos would be that we could point UTV at a repo with a modified version of Unity, so we don't need to worry about having everything be identical between unity desktop and unity TV packages
<MrChrisDruif> I think our goal should be making it look like Unity (with the added features/restrictions) or at least as in integrated part of Unity, but not basing it off of Unity
<MrChrisDruif> BRB
<mhall119> imnichol: probably there will be one package of Unity, but a runtime option or simply different set of default configurations to make it work better for TV
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: here's how I've been working:
<mhall119> 1) Identify what parts of desktop Unity already work for TV
<imnichol> mhall119, Why do you think that?
<mhall119> 2) Of the parts that don't work, how can they be made to work
<mhall119> 3) Of those changes, which ones make sense to put back into desktop Unity
<mhall119> imnichol: less maintenance work for the developers
<mhall119> imnichol: it might be one -common package with 99% of Unity, and separate -tv-config package for the TV specific configurations
<imnichol> That's what I've been thinking
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, back
<MrChrisDruif> Now in jammies
<MrChrisDruif> That is indeed a good starting point MrChrisDruif =)
 * mhall119 always thinks better in PJs
<MrChrisDruif> Let
<MrChrisDruif> s use these PJs what there meant for =P
<mhall119> I'm not that kind of guy, plus I'm married
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-08
<MrChrisDruif> Good evening
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-09
<mhall119> http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/12/why-pay-for-channels-you-dont-watch-ctd-2.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+andrewsullivan%2FrApM+%28The+Daily+Dish%29 an interesting read
<mhall119> especially the last two paragraphs
<MrChrisDruif> Is that so mhall119 ?
<MrChrisDruif> It's about the death of cable?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: most of it is about why we can't pick just the channels we want
<mhall119> the last part is about why that might be changing in the near future
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, it's because cable companies have forced us in a certain direction
<MrChrisDruif>  /model
<mhall119> I can see a future where "channels" are nothing more than RSS feeds that anybody can make.  You subscribe to the ones that pick the best lineups for you
<mhall119> so if MrCrhisDruif has the best selection of SciFi shows, I'll subscribe to his channel
<mhall119> he doesn't have to produce content, or even distribute content, just distribute a list of content
<mhall119> the trick is going to be finding an economic model for that
<MrChrisDruif> I think it'll be similar to Youtube subscriptions to channels
<mhall119> can you add other people's videos to your list that other people subscribe to?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, it's like youtube actually. A lot of uploaders get paid by Youtube and are "partners" of youtube
<mhall119> right, but that's a walled garden
<MrChrisDruif> Well, "we" could have a slightly different model. I use AdBlock, but otherwise you get really annoyed by all the ad's on Youtube
<mhall119> what if TV shows produced episodes with embedded commercials, and split apart at commercial breaks in a way that lets you add your own commercials to the feed, without removing theirs, but also without having to give them a cut of your ad revenue
<mhall119> that's almost what major networks do now
<MrChrisDruif> If we get a model in which a channel get paid per users, just a small amount every month or year, then those ad's could be removed right?
<mhall119> sure, but if the content is already free and includes ads, that wouldn't be an option
<mhall119> if "Lost" is available with ads in it already, I'm not going to pay you to watch it just because you didn't add any more
<MrChrisDruif> I don't understand what you mean?
<mhall119> basically, I'd be watching your ads (ads for your customers) in addition to the show's ads (ads from their customers)
<MrChrisDruif> I think the two of us have different ideas =')
<mhall119> I put up with the show's ads because i like the show, I put up with your ads because I like the collection of shows you've assembled for me
<MrChrisDruif> You think about static commercials, whereas I'm thinking more in the way of youtube..
<mhall119> I hate those even more than regular commercials
<mhall119> but yeah, that would work too
<MrChrisDruif> And if you paid a small amount, then they get removed.
<mhall119> but the decentralized economic models means that both you and the show have to get revenue independently of eachother
<MrChrisDruif> And those dynamics adds can contain what ever is required. Either of the uploader or from a sponsor....
<mhall119> so I can pay you to avoid your ads, but that doesn't mean I'd be able to avoid the show's ads
<MrChrisDruif> What if the show if a privately organized show, e.g. Equals Three or Annoying Orange, two very popular shows on Youtube
<mhall119> what do you mean privately organized?
<MrChrisDruif> They aren't tied to broadcasting studios, so those shows don't have ad's tied to that show
<mhall119> ok, so those shows go to a commercial company and say "Hey, X number of people are going to be watching this video, I'll give you a 30 second ad space on it for $Y"
<mhall119> then MrChrisDruif
<mhall119> then MrChrisDruif's channel picks it up, because it's an awesome show and awesome shows build his subscribers, then he goes to another commercial company and says "Hey, W number of people are going to watch my channel, I'll give you a 30 second ad space on it for $Z"
<mhall119> the creators of the show like this, because the more people MrChrisDruif shows their video to, the larger their viewer count (X), which means they can make $Y bigger
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif has incentives to find quality shows without too many ads in them already, because that increase his subscriber count (W) which lets him make $Z bigger
<mhall119> if either one puts in too many ads, they lose subscribers to people who put in less, to the incentive is the minimal number of ads to get a good profit
<mhall119> in the first case, if the show puts in too many, MrChrisDruif finds a different show for his lineup
<mhall119> in the second, if MrChrisDruif puts in too many, people switch to mhall119's feed which has a similar lineup but fewer commercials
<MrChrisDruif> On the one hand this looks correct, however, what if the creators of the show are the only ones able to upload it? That way everyone views it straight from their feed, and people get to know about their feed through likes?
<mhall119> because part of what people like about the current TV situation is the variety that is given to them
<MrChrisDruif> If you want you can save it on your TV/Server, but with some kind of unique id attached to it, so it can't be uploaded again?
<mhall119> we don't have to go out and find good new shows, we don't have to manage a huge lineup of programs
<mhall119> most people don't even build up an RSS subscription list of more than a dozen sources
<mhall119> that's work, and people don't want work when they turn on their TV
<mhall119> if you do that work for them, they'll be willing to either pay you or watch your ads
<MrChrisDruif> Remember our social media feature in the list?
<mhall119> yeah but most of my friends have horrible taste in TV
<MrChrisDruif> Haha =)
<mhall119> it's be nothing but ghost hunters, singing competitions and whatever that vampire show is that everybody's watching now
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, maybe we should be become friend. Then you'll have some awesome suggestions waiting =P
<mhall119> heh
<mhall119> there's also just plain "I'm bored, show me something I haven't seen or heard of before"
<mhall119> like Pandora even
<mhall119> or Netflix's suggestion system (which sucks, btw)
<MrChrisDruif> Youtube also has that. It analyzes what you've watched before and suggests things you might like
<mhall119> yeah
<MrChrisDruif> You get my drift?
<mhall119> algorithms are fine and dandy sometimes, but other times I want someone else's pick
<mhall119> not more of what I've already seen
<mhall119> maybe a mix of algorithms and social inputs would work
<MrChrisDruif> That's what I'm suggesting =)
<mhall119> but I still like the idea of someone aggregating shows into a cohesive, thematic feed
<mhall119> and I'd give up a few minutes here and there to watch ads in order to get that
<JackyAlcine> That sounds glorious.
<MrChrisDruif> Most feeds on Youtube are that, they all have a certain theme
<mhall119> right, and if YouTube 1) weren't a walled garden and 2) had better quality stuff that wasn't always under threat of a takedown notice, that would work
<mhall119> they can fix #2
<mhall119> with enough clout
<MrChrisDruif> I'm not saying we should use Youtube, I was just taking it as an example =)
<mhall119> and a good example
<MrChrisDruif> Thank you
<mhall119> maybe Ubuntu TV could become the market place where people sell their feeds
<MrChrisDruif> Finally he seems to get what I'm going at =|))
<mhall119> heh
<mhall119> it's been a long, long day, I'm a bit slow
<MrChrisDruif> .....it's 3 AM over here
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, now I'm really going
<MrChrisDruif> I wanted to set my alarm at 9 AM...
<MrChrisDruif> So yeah...off I go =) Good night JackyAlcine & mhall119
<JackyAlcine> o/
<JackyAlcine> oy.
<JackyAlcine> lol
<dmj726> I'm actually not sure ads are really the only or the right way to go
<dmj726> It's one business model, yes.  But they can quickly become overwhelmingly annoying if handled poorly
<mhall119> dmj726: it was an example, but you're gonna have to fund the content somehow
<dmj726> mhall119: totally agreed on funding content.
<mhall119> dmj726: hence my example of why the annoyance would be self-limiting by offering more choice
<dmj726> Ads can be one model, but I'm not sure they're as good a model as some think
<tgm4883> ads?
<tgm4883> skimming the backlog, I recall rhpot1991 having an argument about why it's needed to bundle channels
<rhpot1991> the argument goes that if you had ala cart cable any cable channels would not be able to survive as is
<rhpot1991> they get their funding because of package deals
<rhpot1991> fox sells fox with fx and all their other channels, etc
<rhpot1991> so once you ax that funding we get rid of all of fx's original shows and are left with 24 hours of 2.5 men reruns, no thanks
<dmj726> rhpot1991: But why wouldn't fx get subscribers if their shows were really wanted
<rhpot1991> dmj726: in a perfect world sure
<rhpot1991> but in today's television mindless reality tv rules
<rhpot1991> with its lack of writers and low "actor" pay
<dmj726> rhpot1991: so are you suggesting that this status quo is a good thing?
<dmj726> rhpot1991: not accusing you, just wondering if letting some crap disappear is all that bad
<rhpot1991> dmj726: absolutely not, all the good shows get canceled without a chance and instead we get another american idol reboot
<rhpot1991> its a sad sad world we live in where whitney is somehow still on the air but community is on infinite hiatus
<dmj726> rhpot1991: so you're saying if people had a choice, they'd go for the crap?
<rhpot1991> isn't that what happens now?
<dmj726> rhpot1991: yeah, I wish there was more good scifi on the air
<rhpot1991> people don't want things that make them think
<rhpot1991> they want mindless tv
<rhpot1991> so generic laugh track comedies, the same old reality tv show, or a 1 hour crime/drama procedural
<rhpot1991> rinse and repeat
<dmj726> right now if you subscribe to cable, you're stuck financing ghost hunters and co regardless
<rhpot1991> at least with cable I get fx and amc
<rhpot1991> both with excellent original programming
<rhpot1991> so any model that threatens them I don't agree with
<dmj726> I'm just suggesting that said original programming might distinguish them from the crowd and actually get them above average subscribers ala carte
<rhpot1991> that said show me a model that doesn't kill arrested development at its young age and I'll follow you blindly
<dmj726> Honestly, I'm trying for a model where the show can't get screwed by the network if it can sustain itself
<rhpot1991> the only way I see it is if you skip tv
<rhpot1991> and go right to digital VoD
<rhpot1991> amazon/netflix/etc
<rhpot1991> let me pay for my shows I like and I'll be happy and give you a lot more money that way
<rhpot1991> that doesn't work for new shows though
<dmj726> I'd be happy with that scenario.
<dmj726> Well, it depends on being able to capture an audience
<rhpot1991> think of kickstarter
<dmj726> I'm not sure that problem has been reliably solved, but I don't think it's impossible
<rhpot1991> if you let me pledge $ towards a new season of my favorite show
<rhpot1991> I'd be all over that
<rhpot1991> but I'm not going to blindly pledge towards shows I don't know
<rhpot1991> maybe a combination of the both would work
<dmj726> True, and I suspect people who have made one good show, could find supporters for future projects
<rhpot1991> anything that lest good shows with bad ratings live on I'd be all for
<dmj726> rhpot1991: or even just good shows with mediocre ratings
<dmj726> the ones with a dedicated but niche audience
<rhpot1991> yep
<dmj726> If it had been allowed say Firefly likely could have funded several seasons if not subject to network whims
<dmj726> (basing purely on DVD sales and fan reaction here)
<dmj726> I'm not sure TV and cable packages as they exist now are likely to exist as they are now indefinitely
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-10
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<MrChrisDruif> There, I've replied yo
<MrChrisDruif> To something you didn't even know about ^_^
<MrChrisDruif> *
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-03
<mhall119> man, what did you guys do?  My inbox is full of G+ emails saying people have started following Ubuntu TV!
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-04
<jussi> can someone give me a quick update on where we are with ubuntu tv?
<popey> jussi, http://www.doadjustyourset.com/ is the best place to see the project status
<jussi> thanks popey.
<jussi> popey: is there a nightly ppa somewhere? I saw it mentioned in regard to ISO's in the task list (with your name on it...
<popey> not yet
<jussi> ok - when is it estimated it will come? and I jut have to compile in the meantime? or?
<mhall119> jussi: bobweave is still working on the Nux port, having some issues getting local Unity dev environment setup
<jussi> mhall119: argh, ok. Frstrating. How useable is the old unity2d stuff?
<mhall119> jussi: it's demo-able, but it's only a demo
<jussi> right.
<mhall119> bobweaver has made it very easy to install the demo code from a PPA though
<mhall119> but, it's not ready for livingroom use yet, if that's what you were after
<jussi> mhall119: also, the actual "tv" part - is it done, part done or just "demo" ?
<jussi> mhall119: yeah, Im after the living room bit :D
<mhall119> jussi: it's all just "demo"
<mhall119> jussi: I'm sure they'd welcome some help :)
<tgm4883> i'd recommend mythtv
<mhall119> course you would :P
<jussi> mhall119: you remember my coding skills... right? :P
<tgm4883> mhall119, being that for the DVR portion of Ubuntu TV, the only integrated backend will be MythTV, I think it's a good recommendation ;)
<mhall119> me too
<jussi> hrm, last time I tried mythtv it was a total mess to setup...
<jussi> very frustrating
<tgm4883> jussi, when was that?
<cm-t> mhall119:  that's good news :)
<cm-t> (g+ )
<jussi> tgm4883: about a year ago
<tgm4883> what country are you in?
<jussi> finland
<tgm4883> hmm
<jussi> tgm4883: at least with mythbuntu it needed frontends and backends and all sorts or weirdness.
<tgm4883> jussi, well that is true
<tgm4883> you do need a frontend and a backend
<tgm4883> although they can reside on the same machine
<jussi> hrrm
<tgm4883> I see that as a good thing, not a bad one
<tgm4883> you don't agree?
<jussi> tgm4883: if its painful to setup, then thats an issue
<tgm4883> jussi, I disagree that it is painful to setup, but I'm not aware of the issues you were facing
<tgm4883> if it was a hardware support issue, documentation, etc
<jussi> tgm4883: it may be just that I dont understand how it all works, or I missed a step. I shall try again
<jussi> tgm4883: is it easier just to grab a install to ubuntu, or better to grab the mythbuntu disc install?
<tgm4883> jussi, the reason for the frontend/backend (client/server) setup, is so you can have a single mythtv server for recording, then have multiple frontends around your house feeding off the same server
<jussi> tgm4883: yeah, I get that. However, in my  57m2 house, only one is needed.... ;)
<tgm4883> jussi, either is just fine. If you do a Ubuntu install, I'd recommend grabbing mythbuntu-control-centre and configuring with that. You'll probably want to install XFCE though, as there is issues with Compiz and MythTV
<tgm4883> (or just do a Mythbuntu install)
<jussi> tgm4883: yeah, the machine in question already has kubuntu on it. hence my question :)
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-06
<bobweaver> Hi tgm4883  :)
<mhall119> hey bobweaver, sounds like you've had an exciting week
<tgm4883> bobweaver, hi, long time no see
 * mhall119 referring to your G+ post
<bobweaver> yeah sorry about that I have had a very hard week I mean I almost died I crashed a harddrive and lost alot of code and also am happy to be alive today
<mhall119> yeah, I'm always paranoid about data loss, but I'm not diligent enough to keep a reliable backup routine
<bobweaver> mhall119,  yeah it was super super crazy I have a mark on my forehead to where the speakers skinned it
<mhall119> so everything goes to U1 or launchpad's bzr branches
<bobweaver> I can not afford the hardrives
<mhall119> bobweaver: yikes, that's crazy
<mhall119> I've got some spare hard drives, but nothing big, maybe 20GB
<bobweaver> most stuff that was lost was stupid stuff that I did not really need that much
<bobweaver> still a HD failure is a killer
<tgm4883> yea that sucks
<bobweaver> lots of death around bob this week
<mhall119> yeah, I have an external 500GB that's failing, I need to save whatever I can off it before it dies for good
<tgm4883> I've got a Diskstation I record mythtv to
<tgm4883> everything else is in the cloud
<tgm4883> either google drive, Ubuntu one, or LP
<bobweaver> so I listened to rick spenser talk about Ubuntu on ubuntu on-air and I do not think that canonical is that interested in TV . anyone else feel that that is true ?
<tgm4883> yea I kinda feel that way :/
<bobweaver> how has life been on your end tgm4883  ?
<tgm4883> it's getting better. I'm awaiting delivery of a laptop today so I don't have to develop on a netbook anymore
<bobweaver> I upgraded kernel to 3.7.X not a v.good idea everything is failing
<tgm4883> my desktop for some reason decided to delete everything off of it
<bobweaver> That is awesome ! tgm4883  what is specs ?
<tgm4883> basically resetting itself back to a fresh install
<tgm4883> bobweaver, it's an inspiron 14z
<bobweaver> woot woot
<tgm4883> core i7, 8GB ram
<bobweaver> Oo
<tgm4883> yea, it was a killer deal
<bobweaver> what is that in make -j like 8 ?
<bobweaver> compile things real fast
<tgm4883> probably
<tgm4883> no compiling in python
<tgm4883> :)
<bobweaver> qt5 and qml 2 came out
<bobweaver> I am super happy about that
<bobweaver> I need to work on C++ though I am a little out of date so to say
<mhall119> bobweaver: tgm4883: it's not that there isn't interest in the TV, it's that we are interested in more things than we have people to focus on them
<mhall119> I need to learn C++, or more C for that matter
<bobweaver> seems like as I am using qt5 I ported football manager that I am making to that and it is running at a 3rd or the ram and cpu usage
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-07
<CrestedNewt> Evening all - we still on for 18:00GMT?
<tgm4883> 18:00 GMT?
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, is there a meeting I don't know about?
<CrestedNewt> I thought that we said last week that there would be a meeting every week
<CrestedNewt> there is nothing on the fridge though
<mhall119> crap, I was supposed to setup a recurring meeting, wasn't I?
<CrestedNewt> lol!!! no problems - just slap yourselt with a 4x2 :D
<mhall119> ok, I made it recurring, though it may be too late for today
<tgm4883> mhall119 failed, I think that means he needs to buy everyone drinks :)
<CrestedNewt> it's not a problem - I'm squeezing the time in as I have other things I need to be getting on with anyway
<CrestedNewt> Mike is a pint of IPA please :D
<mhall119> tgm4883: tap water for everyone!
<CrestedNewt> too late - I've already made my request :D
<tgm4883> I don't think there is much to discuss, but I think we should be in there if we can and answer questions
<tgm4883> mhall119, is the channel available (#ubuntu-meeting right)?
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> not sure if bobweaver is available
<CrestedNewt> I know that Joseph has been busy this week as we have tried to sort out a google hangout but he has been doing some work from what I understand
<CrestedNewt> catch you all on the tail end of next week - have a good one in the meantime
<bobweaver> er sorry all notify-send was not working :/
<mhall119> no worries bobweaver
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-08
<bobweaver> Don't want to be a farmer working in the sun Don't want to be an outlaw always on the run  Don't want to be a climber reaching for the top  Don't want to be anything where I don't know when to stop  A dream it's true But I'd see it through If I could be Wasting my time with you
<bobweaver> So if I'm inside your head Don't believe what you might have read You'll see what I might have said To hear it Come waste your time with me
<bobweaver> then before and one time more I am bouncing around room
<bobweaver> that time again once again and im bouncing aroungd the room
<bobweaver> kand I awoke
<bobweaver> and I awoke
<bobweaver> the echo of um'ever talked
<bobweaver> See the city, see the zoo Traffic light won't let me through
<bobweaver> green kight stop :)
<bobweaver> light *
<bobweaver> He said I come from the land of darkness I said I come from the land of doom
<bobweaver> He said I come from the land of Gamehendge From the land of the big baboon
<bobweaver> But I'm never never going back there
<bobweaver> And I couldn't if I tried
<bobweaver> 'Cause I come from the land of Tux
<bobweaver> sTux|Lizards|
<bobweaver> And the Lizards they have died
<bobweaver> The Helping Friendly Book, it seemed, possessed the ancient secrets Of eternal joy and never-ending splendor The trick was to surrender to the flow
<bobweaver>  â© âª â« â¬ â­ â® â¯
<bobweaver> this one goes out to Saviq  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnArHesjGp4
<bobweaver> :)
<bobweaver> sorry just trying to get my Heavy metal on.. lets just leave it @ that
<bobweaver> what do you all think about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZXV4J0d_nE ?  what do you think that we can take from that and use with UTV ?
<bobweaver> thst is where I got maps and weather from before
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-09
<bobweaver> ping cm-t  you around broseph ?
<bobweaver> I am looking for  someone here to make me some xcf images of some of the things that are in the Design of the wiki
<bobweaver> Like to take these images and make each item of the picture into a layer in gimp
<bobweaver> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<bobweaver> esp page 9 and 10
<bobweaver> then export it to qml with the export tool
<bobweaver> if anyone is up to the task that is
<bobweaver> I should do it and make a tutorial that is what I am going to do :)
<mhall119> bobweaver: unfortunately I made those mockups in Pencil, not Gimp :(
<mhall119> bobweaver: page 9 and 10 are just screenshots from existing apps (youtube's leanback UI, and Gnome's media explorer)
<bobweaver> no worry's I just finshed it up in gimp and am going to move to other computer(tv) and make a tutorial on it
<bobweaver> what is gnome-media explorer ?
 * bobweaver goes to google 
<mhall119> http://media-explorer.org/
<bobweaver> mhall119,  remeber my idea for getting more peps for design
<mhall119> app design?
<bobweaver> that is the tutorial that I am going to make sure others that may not be coders can make design
<mhall119> the chat we had after UDS?
<bobweaver> yup
<mhall119> awesome
<mhall119> that gimp exporter will make that super-easy
<bobweaver> yup
<mhall119> bbl, off to the store to buy a new tree-topper
<bobweaver> cya have a good one thank for the info
#ubuntu-tv 2013-12-05
<tvin> Anyone here?
<tvin> hello
