#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-18
<Pendulum> AlanBell: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-dx-n-virtual-keyboard/
 * AlanBell subscribes
<Fudge> good question
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-19
<AlanBell> I think a UDS session on the accessible installer would be good
<AlanBell> wednesday 16:15 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-20
<Pendulum> we have a blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info
<Pendulum> AlanBell: TheMuso nigelb maco ^^
<Pendulum> bah, new link for blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info
 * nigelb subscribes
<dam63> Hi/Bonsoir
<dam63> Sorry for my bad english
<dam63> I would like to find a software to help me to communicate with deaf person, 
<dam63> I heard about Sphinx but don't find 
 * dam63 meant "in French"
<dam63> Somebody knows one 
<dam63> ?
<Pendulum> dam63: what exactly are you looking for?
<Pendulum> Do you want something that will take what you're saying and type it?
<Pendulum> (is there a reason you can't just type it?)
<dam63> Pendulum, You're right i'm writing on a blackboard for the moment, personnaly I can type on a keyboard (really!) but I'd like to talk with my friend with 'subtitles' Very more friendly imho, 
<Pendulum> there's no good voice recognition software for Linux right now, sadly :(
<dam63> My best wish will be to have a 3+ conversation with IRC style <damien> blablabla 
<dam63> <marc> blabliblo
<dam63> Do you think I can help for this
<dam63>  voice recognition software for linux
<Pendulum> a completely non-technical idea for the long term, but does your friend sign? have you considered learning sign language?
<dam63> My friend has 82 y-o and doesn't know sign language
<Pendulum> dam63: probably. I'm not really familiar with who is actively working on it other than the major projects being sphinx and julius
<dam63> It should be good but I don't know if it's hard to learn
<Pendulum> you might want to contact one of those to see how you could help?
<dam63> Ok, i heard about sphinx but not julius
<dam63> i wil check
<dam63> Thanks you Pendulum :)
<Pendulum> you're welcome :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-21
<AlanBell> Pendulum: in dasher preferences on the language tab if you change the direction to custom can you activate the radio buttons below?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: no
<Pendulum> looks like a bug
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> did I tell you about the daily dash of dasher I set up?
<Pendulum> no
<AlanBell> my PPA now has daily builds of dasher from the gnome git tree
<AlanBell> which was a lot easier to set up than it sounds
<AlanBell> bug 664750
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 664750 in dasher (Ubuntu) "custom direction radio buttons don't activate (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664750
<AlanBell> feel free to confirm and comment and I will forward it upstream
<Pendulum> can I confirm even though I don't usually do bug stuff?
<AlanBell> yes, you certainly can
<AlanBell> anyone can confirm apart from the person who submitted the bug
<AlanBell> I filed it, you have independently tested it and can confirm it.
<AlanBell> Bug #637747
<ubot2> AlanBell: Bug 637747 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/637747 is private
<Pendulum> AlanBell: done on that bug
<Pendulum> what was the 2nd bug?
<AlanBell> it was referenced on another one, I think it is an automatic crash log or something, I just wanted to see if ubot2 could see any more of it than I can
<Pendulum> AlanBell: also, I got an answer from Patrick re: the direct input in 3.0 issue. I'll forward it to you because I only 1/2 understand it
<Pendulum> AlanBell: btw, do you have a preferred e-mail? I have 3 of them for you in my address book :P
<AlanBell> they all end up in the same place really!
<AlanBell> alanbell@ubuntu.com I guess
<Pendulum> heh, too late. I sent to the first one on my list :P
<AlanBell> got it
<AlanBell> oh my, that is quite a suggestion
<AlanBell> ok, so lets put aside the suggestion that users recompile it with a different build option for the moment!
<AlanBell> however his basic point is that the "typing into apps" bit doesn't use at-spi
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> which I don't think has been clear in any of the gnome documentation, so at least that I can make clear for them
<AlanBell> I think from the mail he sent me the at-spi bit tells dasher which window has focus
<Pendulum> and he failed to answer my "are you thinking of porting to dbus" question
<AlanBell> Sladen is joining in nicely on the gnome bug :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: well he was the person who filed the bug for me originally :)
<Pendulum> he's poked me to comment
<Pendulum> I'm just failing to remember my bugzilla login info
<AlanBell> yup
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dasher/+bug/637747 is no longer private
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 637747 in dasher (Ubuntu) "dasher crashed with SIGSEGV in Dasher::CDasherModel::HandleOutput() (affects: 1) (heat: 12)" [Medium,New]
<charlie-tca> apport bug reports are automatically marked private until we can check to make sure there is no private information in them
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's the one that was fixed in Maverick, yes?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: okay, have found my username. now to try to remember password...
<Pendulum> argh. it's telling me that neither e-mail address I could have used is a valid log-in
<charlie-tca> AlanBell, Pendulum : if you let me know these bug numbers, I can make them public for us
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: we're talking about some gnome bugs, mostly
<AlanBell> Pendulum: that is similar to the crash that was fixed, but it is new
<AlanBell> thanks charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~alanbell/+archive/ppa dasher 4.11 built for Lucid daily (Maverick build is not working for some reason right now)
<Pendulum> I notice the GTK errors that show up if you run direct mode were reported 2 years ago as a gnome bug and still haven't been fixed :-/
<Pendulum> I really wish I knew how to help
<Pendulum> obviously I need to relearn coding ;-)
<Pendulum> or at least C
<Pendulum> (I have yet to see a good argument about why I should relearn java ;-) )
<AlanBell> would dasher work well with multitouch or on a tablet thingummy?
<Pendulum> it does :)
<AlanBell> ok, so there are about 3 squillion touch sessions at UDS
<AlanBell> it will be a touchy feely UDS
<AlanBell> and they should be talking about Dasher
<Pendulum> or at least, it works well on my mac trackpad and it works well with my wacom tablet (when I have Ubuntu set up correctly for the Wacom)
<AlanBell> so rather than learning C, get 20 C programmers excited by it and see what happens
<Pendulum> but I liked C
<Pendulum> ;-)
<Pendulum> but, yes, I'm going to try
<AlanBell> do both then!
<Pendulum> not to mention the on screen keyboard session
<Pendulum> I am sad that sladen isn't making it to UDS :(
<AlanBell> oh, didn't realise, that is a shame
<AlanBell> it will be light on Brits all round
<Pendulum> something where he would have been taking a boat that left 4 October, but then he didn't make it on the boat or something
<AlanBell> whut? he was taking a boat to Florida??
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> because this time of year if you book last minute, transatlantic crossings to the US are cheap
<Pendulum> because places are moving their boats from the Med to the Caribbean
<Pendulum> s/places/companies
<AlanBell> wow
<AlanBell> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+recipe/daily-dash-of-dasher
<AlanBell> http://www.doctort.org/adam/nerd-notes/x11-fake-keypress-event.html this is the kind of thing that dasher does on the inside with that XTestFakeKeyEvent stuff
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-22
<AlanBell> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/appdevs-dx-n-probabilistic-input
<Pendulum> AlanBell: aww, you waited for me to get up, didn't you
<AlanBell> just got back from a client actually
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> just good timing then?
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> funny bunch they are too!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-17
<Pendulum> TheMuso: when you get up can we have a chat? I have some stuff I want to discuss with you before my call with jono tomorrow :)
<Pendulum> general team: Does anyone mind if I set up a blueprint and submit it to UDS?
<webczat> hello
<webczat> I have some small problems with the ubuntu livecd, for example the fact that when I click "try ubuntu", it logs in, but orca usually does not start, and when it does, I'm always in unity2d, I don't see notifications, and I don't see the battery charge.
<maco> is that with having pressed ctrl+s during boot?
<webczat> yes
<webczat> unless the usbcreator saves some settings but...
<webczat> The fact is that I usually don't get orca on login, but I always get it when the system starts and I press ctrl+s, a great feature, actually!
<webczat> the fact that ubuntu never updates their packages (or rarely) and livecds is bad, it would be useful to get unity a11y as updates.
<webczat> and in livecds
<webczat> ubuntu should be more dynamic instead of having a need to wait 6 months for improvements that may introduce new strange bugs
<AlanBell> well some stuff does arrive as updates
<webczat> some.
<AlanBell> won't fix the livecd issue, but I think live USB should be updateable with persistent storage?
<AlanBell> I am not totally sure about that
<webczat> actually it's a livependrive, not a regular installed system on it
<webczat> so probably not, I think it now does not include any persistent storage
<webczat> the livecd issuses should be able to be fixed. I think so.
<webczat> s/issues
<webczat> those issues are pretty major for blind people that are unfamiliar.
<webczat> is it actually possible to do something with this?
<AlanBell> webczat: well it is possible to remaster a liveCD
<AlanBell> but there won't be an official iso update for 11.10, they only do point release updates for the long term support releases
<webczat> bad, bad, baaaad
<webczat> bad policy I think
<webczat> the livecd is representative. if you'll have it and you'll want to test the livecd and it will have all those bugs, you can think that ubuntu is bad and buggy even if you have updates fixing those bugs that you can install later.
<maco> it takes a lot of effort to make a new set of images.  usually involves a few days of pulling in tons of volunteers working around the clock to get them all tested for all test cases
<webczat> maybe. but I still think I'm pretty right
<maco> id rather we just get things working right to start with
<webczat> no one tested all possibilities for accessibility, unless the problem with orca not starting is specific to my laptop
<AlanBell> there are daily live CDs of the development release
<maco> pulling people off of the devel version to spend 72 hours trying to re-roll the already-stable version certainly wont be helping the next devel version be an improvement
<webczat> yeah. first we should get things right.
<webczat> but that doesn't mean it would take 6 months.
<AlanBell> in the Precise Pangolin cycle I am hoping that it will be in better shape for testing more of the time. In Oneiric a lot of the time nothing at all would work for me.
<maco> i was supposed to get the kubuntu installer to auto-configure a11y for people installing with it, but the kubuntu installer couldnt even install until around beta
<Fudge> maco  accessible with orca, the kubuntu?
<maco> somewhat
<maco> any kde widget that's heavily based on a qt one (or any straight up qt widgets) should work
<maco> but custom widgets might not
<Fudge> thats interesting
<maco> for example, Arora (web browser) didnt work last time i tried
<maco> or Konqueror...one of those
<Fudge> i guess normal gtk apps that orca users are used to would though
<maco> Qt's built-in accessibility stuff exists. KDE widgets that are just Qt-widgets-with-a-couple-extra-API-calls will work as though they were the Qt widgets
<Fudge> does skype?
<maco> yes
<maco> yes
<Fudge> impressive
<maco> there's an at-spi bridge to make the Qt accessibility stuff work with Orca, and apparently its pretty functional at this point
<maco> skype isn;t 100% there, but ive had reports that its good enough
<Fudge> ive been following it and did read about skype functionality but didnt realise all the bridge stuff made it into oneiric
<maco> there are a few bugs with it in the buddy list, iirc
<Fudge> better than, inaccessible!
<maco> if Unity-2D is working in oneiric, then the bridge is there. Unity-2D is Qt
<TheMuso> Yes the bridge is in Oneiric.
<TheMuso> Things on the whole are likely going to be better in Precise because QT 4.8 is more likely going to be used, which has more important fixes that couldn't be backported to 4.7.
<Fudge> whats in oneiric, 4.8?
<TheMuso> 4.7.
<Fudge> is 4.8 being pushed to the a11y ppa
<TheMuso> No not so far as I know.
<TheMuso> QT is one of those pieces that has a lot of patches in Ubuntu for various integration bits as well as other misc fixes. Updating to a new upstream version of something as major as QT is a lot of work.
<TheMuso> So since Unity 2d works well enough atm, there is no real need for QT 4.8 in any oneiric PPAs.
<TheMuso> QT 4.8 certainly won't make anything in unity 2d any more accessible than it is now,
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-18
<Fudge> :D
<maco> updating Qt would likely mean recompiling ALL of kde as well
<TheMuso> Yup.
<elky> maco, boop
<maco> yay thanks
<elky> why it not letting me op you up? :-/
<elky> oh... -ChanServ- #ubuntu-accessibility has the SECURE option enabled, and maco does not have appropriate access.
<elky> yummy
<maco> so um maybe i have a redirect setup now?
<maco> nope. test account did not get redirected
<elky> did you set it to invite only?
<test2> ah HA!
<test2> yay :)
<elky> reading aaaall the instructions helps ;)
<maco> if it doesnt do squat without the other flag, why doesnt it imply the other flag?
<elky> maco, ask the freenode developers
<elky> also, bans count afaik
<elky> also, registered-user-required would count
<elky> +f iirc basically means "forward if you're not special enough to join"
<elky> which is why you yourself will still be able to join it, because you're considered special for that channel
<maco> ok
<maco> annalee: #ubuntu-a11y now redirects here for all your dyslexic needs
<AlanBell> yay, good idea, thanks maco and elky 
<elky> welcome.
<AlanBell> I can't see onboard in the -proposed updates TheMuso 
<AlanBell> ah, possibly not built yet
<TheMuso> Very possibly, yes.
<AlanBell> hmm, not keen on the lack of a window top bar now, makes it harder to drag it about
<AlanBell> and no, "holding down alt" and dragging isn't a suitable workaround for an onscreen keyboard
<AlanBell> and in scanning mode return is mapped to "e"
<Pendulum> apinheiro: do you have time for a quick PM?
<apinheiro> Pendulum, hi, sorry I was afk
<apinheiro> quick PM?
<fregl> TheMuso: I have kde apps crashing in a kde session because of qt-at-spi though. From that perspective Qt 4.8 would be nice since there were many crash fixes.
<fregl> does anyone know where QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1 becomes exported in (k)ubuntu?
<TheMuso> fregl: If you have at-spi2-core installed, it should be set in /etc/X11/XSession.d
<TheMuso> But it uses gsettings to check whether GNOME a11y is enabled.
<fregl> TheMuso: thanks
<fregl> ah, that is why I have it and others don't
<TheMuso> Once we have something thats more cross-platform, things will be different for sure.
<TheMuso> But the primary use case was unity-2d.
<TheMuso> s/was/is/
<fregl> TheMuso: thanks a lot for the explanation. that explains why others should not be affected. fine :)
<AlanBell> Bug #877385
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 877385 in onboard "scanning layout has return mapped to "e"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877385
<AlanBell> can someone try to confirm that one please
<webczat> hello
<webczat> What about things we were talking about? I was thrown out by the school's intenet.
<AlanBell> hi webczat 
<webczat> Are there some small news?
<AlanBell> webczat: I was looking at the stuff about local respins of Ubuntu
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/LocalizedImagesRollout
<AlanBell> I am thinking of doing an en_GB respin, which would be updated with fixes
<webczat> good idea, but they aren't so easily available. are there any accessibility updates on ubuntu now?
<AlanBell> some in -proposed today relating to the onscreen keyboard, main visual one I am waiting for is orca starting on lightdm
<webczat> I'm not sure where is the bug about orca not speaking text in gedit until alt+tab and thunderbird crashing.
<webczat> and is there any chance patches for unity a11y will be added as updates?
<AlanBell> I don't know if the stuff for unity in the PPA will make it as an update in Oneiric
<AlanBell> I think it should, but I don't understand the risks of the change
<webczat> it's a serious problem for blind people, actually.
<AlanBell> I do agree totally, just not my decision to make
<AlanBell> I am also hoping that Precise will be installable and useable early in the cycle so we can test it properly and report and fix loads of small bugs
<webczat> I know. I actually think that the policy about "everything is usually the same version until the next ubuntu release" could be problematic
<webczat> in general
<AlanBell> there are only a few exceptions, like Firefox and LibreOffice
<webczat> yes.
<webczat> hmm... java should get updated, java-access-bridge should get replaced to jaw, mono should get updated... argh
<AlanBell> those things I think probably should stay stable
<AlanBell> because they have stuff on top of them
<webczat> AlanBell: mono could stay. java should not because it won't make much difference for problams. jaw vs jab is serious because jab does not work at all
<webczat> s/programs
<webczat> openjdk-7 shoult be at least added as an alternative
<AlanBell> yeah, things should be pretty newish at time of release
<webczat> it sometimes annoys me, especially if it is accessibility
<webczat> errrm how do you enter libreoffice's menu bar?
<webczat> I mean the unity
<AlanBell> F10 sometimes
<webczat> it enters indicators only in the libreoffice case, unless I'm wrong?
<AlanBell> I will check in a few minutes
<webczat> ...?
<webczat> I needed to press alt+f to enter the menu
<AlanBell> webczat: there is a package lo-menubar which does libre office global menu integration
<AlanBell> I have *no* idea why it isn't installed by default
<AlanBell> that said, it doesn't appear to work for me right now
<AlanBell> ah, second restart of libreoffice and the extension works
<JanC> AlanBell: the reason that lo-menubar isn't installed by default is that it's not exactly bug-free  ;)
 * JanC wished there would be an option to only use the "global menu" for maximized applications...
<AlanBell> me too
<AlanBell> don't like it, but the inconsistency with Libreoffice is odd
<SeaJay> Are there any good overviews of Unity or Unity 2D out there? Especially something focused on keyboard access.
<SeaJay> I'm seeing a lot of blind users giving Unity a try, like myself, but we could use a good overview of the desktop and how it works. Something more than a list of keyboard short cuts.
<SeaJay> The overview wouldn't have to be geared towards a blind user, but maybe something for the keyboard short cut wanting developer would be good.
<AlanBell> SeaJay: I tried, help me script a better one
<AlanBell> SeaJay: http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/oneiric-ocelot/
<SeaJay1> Thanks Alan! That's a good page, and I see the link to the keyboard shortcuts. Are there also supposed to be some audio/video overviews of Unity?
<SeaJay1> AlanBell: If so, I've not been able to find them or play them under Orca. Maybe I should try under Windows.
<AlanBell> oh, bother, I was going to put the direct links to the videos in
<Pendulum> oh, right, I suppose I should say that here, too
<Pendulum> I really want to see if we can create a movement for "Accessibility from the Start"
<AlanBell> there are some embedded blip.tv videos in that, I will dig out the .ogv links
<SeaJay1> AlanBell: OK, great, that may help and be what we're looking for.
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/get/Alanbell-UsingUbuntu1110WithOrca170.ogv 
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/get/Alanbell-Ubuntu1110EyesFreeInstall602.ogv 
<SeaJay1> OK, thanks AlanBell. I can't look at them now, but maybe in a bit.
<maco> Pendulum++
<maco> i think tacking on accessibility later to an inaccessible design is like trying to tack security onto an insecurely designed system. look how well that security bit worked for Microsoft and DOS!
<Pendulum> TheMuso: just so you know, my "call" with jono has turned into a meeting in #ubuntu-community-team
<TheMuso> Pendulum: ah ok, is that on now?
<maco> its just ending
<TheMuso> oh ok.
<AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/18/%23ubuntu-community-team.html  <- logs will be here in 30 minutes
<maco> TheMuso: something i tried asking jono since i thought youd be asleep because ....well, you're in australia, and i'm awake... is whether david henningson (or whatever his face is) 's presence has freed up some of your allocated-to-audio time to be allocated to a11y 
<maco> (he didnt know)
<maco> since i know you get stretched every which way :)
<TheMuso> It has a little, but audio is still one of my core responsibilities, so I have to give time to that beyond just helping with package uploads.
<maco> TheMuso: btw jono says plenaries are full-up 
<maco> so "how to make your app's accessibility not suck" would have to be either a lightning talk or session
<TheMuso> Ah ok.
<TheMuso> Maybe for UDS Q then, will give me more time to prepare.
<maco> and if a session, scheduled for not-when-a-unity-session-is-going-on
<TheMuso> Right, I won't worry about a session, they ary should be for talking about whats going on in P.
<maco> ok
<maco> well maybe we can at least get dx and desktop folks dragged into the a11y sessions that will be happening
<maco> fregl: any chance you're coming to UDS?
<maco> fregl: also, any links to docs i should read for how to make kde apps be more happier?
<TheMuso> Wonderful engrish there.
<TheMuso> :p
<maco> more happier. its like how bestest is better than best!
<TheMuso> heh
<AlanBell> in the universal access preferences, hearing tab there is a thing to turn on visual alerts and a test flash button
<AlanBell> does it work for you?
<AlanBell> I was sure it did, but right now it does nothing for me
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I wonder whether it requires something 3D/Clutter ish.
<TheMuso> I know compiz has a plugin that does something similar.
<TheMuso> But thats for the bell only I think.
<AlanBell> ah, maybe it works in unity2d
<AlanBell> ok, in unity2d there is a rather pathetic window title bar effect
<TheMuso> heh right.
<SeaJay> AlanBell: The first video link you gave me doesn't seem to be complete. It seemed to stop after the log on screen was described. The last thing I heard was that there was a volume and power icon on the screen and then nothing.
<SeaJay> AlanBell: I'll give it another go, but I'm listening to the second video now, on the install process. This one seems to be complete, but I'm not quite at the end yet.
<SeaJay> AlanBell: Yep, that first video ends for me after you say volume button and power indicator while describing the log on screen.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-19
<AlanBell> SeaJay: ok, I will check the first one again later, might have been something wrong with the encoding process
<fregl> maco: I am coming to UDS. I am not sure how to make kde apps happier... I don't really have time to dive into this. There might be some fixes that are easy to backport to Qt 4.7 but there are enough patches already...
<Pendulum> TheMuso: jono asked me to pull together a list of accessiblity bugs/issues that need to be priority for Precise as a way of seeing if we can pull together something to attract community developers (to supplement the wonderful work you and apinheiro are doing). Should I include things on your blueprint? (the idea is to pull together the list in the next week so that we can look at them/e-mail Jason about the ciritical ones) and then 
<apinheiro> Pendulum, well, I think that it is a good moment to update that blueprint, afaik it is somewhat outdated
<apinheiro> so for me it seems a good idea
<Pendulum> I'll look at the blueprint (I'm thinking of the one that Luke started today)
<Pendulum> apinheiro: you're not going to be at UDS, are you?
<apinheiro> I fear that not
<Pendulum> I didn't think so, but wanted to double check. Hopefully at some point we'll be in the same place at the same time as I'd like to meet you!
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Feel free to include stuff on tha blueprint. What I have put there is currently a dumping ground for things I intend to tackle this cycle. At this point, I feel I can get through them all, but I need to go through them again and work out what will take more/less time etc.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: But things like the eZoom unity rendering bug IMO is high priority, and something which DX will need to be onboard with.
<TheMuso> ...and you are up late.
<Pendulum> yeah, the eZoom bug is one of the things I discussed directly in conversation with jono yesterday
<Pendulum> TheMuso: do you want me to e-mail you the logs?
<Pendulum> I'm actually up early :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: If you don't mind, thanks.
<TheMuso> I'm on doing vinux related work.
<Pendulum> cool :)
<maco> fregl: we'll be on 4.8 in 11.10 anyway
<fregl> maco: in 11.10? isn't that just released?
<maco> erk
<maco> i mean 12.04
<fregl> :)
<maco> brainfail
<fregl> np, I figured
<maco> what year is it again?
<maco> anyway, some kde widgets are too far off from anything in qt, right? so theyll need special code
<webczat> hey
<maco> TheMuso: i read that blueprint's name as the other "Polish"
<webczat> mmmm fsckin net
<fregl> maco: I don't know. which ones? khtml definitively... but I'm not aware of so many really custom widgets. kratingwidget, but that's not as widely used...
<fregl> all in all kde works surprisingly good with just the qt accessibility
<maco> i definitely remember khtml being bad. did konsole have issues too?
<webczat> fregl: about qt-accessibility, I still have small problems with qt accessibility of skype, for example text/password fields not recognized and some things with the html being read
<fregl> I bet konsole has issues
<fregl> webczat: I'm still surprised anything works with skype
<webczat> fregl: why?
<fregl> webczat: normal lineedits not working are probably missing a patch from Qt 4.8. the backporting was not done in the most careful fashion.
<fregl> webczat: cause nobody tested it at all and who know what kind of hacks they use
<fregl> it's good to hear though
<webczat> fregl: I actually wanted to say that I see the text but the text box is not seen as a text box etc
<webczat> and I do not want to wait till ubuntuu 12
<fregl> webczat: file bugs with ubuntu and I am happy to help along but I can't do the work by myself.
<SeaJay> AlanBell: I saw your message last night (my last night), but I dropped off line not long after that.
<SeaJay> AlanBell: Any luck finding out what my problem was with that first video link you sent me? Also, I haven't checked with anything other than Orca, but any idea why I can't find those links off of your web page?
<maco> Pendulum: should i copy over postponed items from oneiric to precise?
<maco> (on the new blueprint i mean)
<maco> SeaJay: i think he said he'd accidentally forgotten to include the links on the webpage
<SeaJay> maco: Ah, that's right. He did mention that yesterday. Sorry, I forgot!
<SeaJay> maco: Actually I read that message too quickly, and I thought he meant that he'd forgotten to paste them into this chat, but that was my bad.
<AlanBell> SeaJay: not done it yet, and not updated the blog post (couldn't find my password to log in to it!)
<AlanBell> SeaJay: updated the blog with links for the first two videos, I am going to re-record the third one about onboard as there are some fairly big changes to it in an update
<AlanBell> SeaJay: the first video was just of the installer process, It doesn't get to the login screen, just the end of the installer then I describe what happens when you restart
<SeaJay> AlanBell: Gotcha! thanks! Did you find anything wrong with that first video? Was it accidentally truncated?
<AlanBell> I will check the second video as I might have given you the links the wrong way round!
<SeaJay> AlanBell: Ah, I'm probably talking about the 2nd video on the page. I'll go check in a bit. I think it was the first link you gave me in this chat though. sorry for the confusion.
<AlanBell> ah crap, yes the audio cuts out
<Pendulum> maco: technical ones, ask Luke
<SeaJay> AlanBell: It starts off with you describing the log on screen and then you just cut out abruptly after mentioning the volume button and the power indicator.
<Pendulum> maco: technical ones, ask Luke
<AlanBell> SeaJay: yes, it does
<maco> Pendulum: i was thinking of my technical ones that i didnt get around to because im a lazy goodfernuthin :P
<AlanBell> ok, I have two videos to re-record then I think
<maco> (also because kubuntu's installer was broken til almost beta)
<Pendulum> yeah, I'd just double check with Luke first
<maco> ok
<Pendulum> I need to set up the community blue print
<SeaJay> Ah, OK, thanks AlanBell!
<Pendulum> and possibly a blue print for Accessibility from the Start
<AlanBell> maco: is there a guide somewhere on installing precise yet?
<maco> AlanBell: i havent even installed oneiric
<maco> dont ask me!
<AlanBell> :)
<maco> i think the giant laptop is going to come to uds. not great with my back, but it can run on battery and it can compile stuff in a reasonable time
<maco> half of which can be done by my netbook, and half of which can be done by my small laptop
 * AlanBell installs an oneiric VM to upgrade to precises
<AlanBell> joanie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology does that look good?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-20
<Fudge> AlanBell  you fail :p
<Fudge> look forward to seeing/hearing these vids
<AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/
<AlanBell> First-class accessibility for those with special interaction needs <- with a link to the release notes we did
<Fudge> AlanBell  is that link for videos
<AlanBell> I have not re-recorded the vidoes yet (waiting for some time to do it, plus a fix for the epic fail with return mapped to "e" on the scanning onboard layout)
<AlanBell> http://twitter.com/#!/alanbell_libsol/status/126967503560777728
<Pendulum> :)
<joanie> AlanBell: Sorry, I needed to sleep. 
<joanie> AlanBell: It looks good. How much hacking did you do to the original meetbot?
<AlanBell> thats no excuse :)
<joanie> I'm thinking of further hacking ours.
<AlanBell> mainly adding voting to the debian meetbot
<joanie> but the diff for subtopic would be handy
<AlanBell> the original mootbot for Ubuntu was TCL/eggdrop, the debian rewrite was in python/supybot
<AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bots/ubuntu-bots/meetingology/view/head:/meeting.py#L316
 * joanie looks
<gxoptg> hello. Can somebody help me? what mean 'click-type window' in OnBoard? I want to translate it into Russian
<gxoptg> hey?
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: ready for tomorrow?
<AlanBell> hmm?
<charlie-tca> Open week session at 15:00 UTC
<AlanBell> ah, that!
<charlie-tca> yeah, that one. You gonna field some of the questions, right?
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> I will do a bit of prep at some point
<AlanBell> I am in a pub right now
<charlie-tca> Okay. I'm flexible. Let me know what if you want to do some of the briefing or just take questions. I hate most of the questions, so any help is great
<AlanBell> maybe set up an etherpad and put some notes in it, I will add stuff later
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-21
<webczat> Hey.
<webczat> Any news?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-23
<webczat> hey.
<webczat> Any news there?
<AlanBell> morning webczat 
<webczat> hello AlanBell 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-18
<DomasoFan> hi all. seems unity 3d seems not to be all that accessible. any idea how to switch to unity 2d?
<davmor2> DomasoFan: in what version?
<DomasoFan> davmor2: in ubuntu 12.10
<davmor2> DomasoFan: there is no 2d version
<DomasoFan> davmor2: interestingly there is still the unity-2d package available in a very new version.
<davmor2> DomasoFan: ah so it might be that it just isn't an install option anymore then nor is it on the iso image
<DomasoFan> maybe. seems gnome-shell is more accessible than unity. i can't even read the unity dash.
<davmor2> DomasoFan: write a bug for every issue you come across and mark it with an accessibility tag.  Let's see if it can't be bettered in 13.04, I appreciate it doesn't help you right now but it might in the future :(
<DomasoFan> davmor2: seems not to be good advertisement for ubuntu already when it came out today. maybe they have a update for that pretty soon. its quite obvious. for the time being i will use gnome shell. works quite well as well. will also test ubuntu gnome shell remix which also should come out today as far as i know.
<DomasoFan> TheMuso: hi. ubuntu 12.10 accessibility seems to have got a pretty hard hit for that 12.10 version it seems. the dash seems to be completely inaccessible.
<DomasoFan> TheMuso: can you confirm?
<Fudge> check the 2d package nd make sure its not jsut a bump
<Fudge> just
<AlanBell> davmor2: there is a bug where it isn't reading the dash icons for applications sometimes
<AlanBell> it seems to mostly not read them, except occasionally it does, I have had it read shopping icons but not applications and sometimes nothing and sometimes everything
<AlanBell> not quite sure what the reproduceable scenario is
<TheMuso> Probably a caching issue, but as it is, unity's a11y needs to be re-architected around nux.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-19
<DomasoFan> hi guys. how are you doing? hope good. fortunately another weekend.
<AlanBell> hi DomasoFan 
<AlanBell> I have found the dash to be sometimes accessible and sometimes not very accessible at all
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: hi alan. wow. ubuntu 12.10 hit accessibility pretty hard it seems. the dash is completely inaccessible.
<AlanBell> not always
<AlanBell> I have had it working, I have also had it working for shopping results, but not for application icons
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: so it kinda does a random accessible/inaccessible thing. hmm.
<AlanBell> yeah, I have not done enough testing to figure out what the pattern is yet
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: you really have a very unhappy job over there to fix things others have broken. *smile*. btw. there is still the unity-2d package around in a recent version but it seems not to be in the sessions switcher.
<AlanBell> not my job, I just want it to work well
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: ah.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: do you know if unity-2d is still supported or not? cause the packages version number fits with the normal unity package.
<AlanBell> erm, I think not
<AlanBell> generally unity-2d is a dead end anyhow
<AlanBell> unity 3d is worth fixing and Gnome Shell isn't far off working either
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: ah. i currently started to use gnome shell now. that seems to be more accessible currently. interesting is that the gnome shell favourites list doesn't talk . seems it just says push button all the time when there are buttons. gnome classic seems to work well again as well.
<AlanBell> yeah, favourites list didn't work for me either, but at least the application icons you search for are spoken fine
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: sure. this works nicely. someone even got xfce working with orca. guess it was the guy who makes the sonar gnu/linux distribution.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: what i also figured out now the lightdm login screen is a little bit different. when you have multiple desktops installed you need to hit space on the desktop you want to use and hit space again on ok and hit enter to start the desktop. but that's handleable. oh and i saw a unlabeled button in the sessions switcher on the login screen as well. seems it doesn't do all that much.
<AlanBell> hmm, good point
<AlanBell> I should do an updated blog and walkthrough now it is released
<AlanBell> will try and get round to that this weekend
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: cool. i'll also continue to figure out whats broken in the other places but on gnome shell it seems to work nice. fortunately we have multiple choices.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: oh and i figured just out that there is an update for orca in the quantal proposed section. let's see what that will do.
<AlanBell> interesting
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: will keep you informed.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: seems its orca 3.7.0.94
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: seems it doesn't change much in unity though.. let's see what we get in gnome shell.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: ok gnome shell still has a non labeled gnome shell favourites list. windows list and overview also doesn't read but this was already known. message tray also doesn't talk or has no content. jumps back to another panel.
<AlanBell> yeah, I was hoping the message tray would work because that is a really useful thing
<AlanBell> in Unity if you miss a notification it is just gone forever
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: yeah. seems its also not working in gnome shell as well but i guess there is an orca function to get that stuff as far as i know.
<AlanBell> oh OK. I need to learn more about stuff orca can do, there is lots of hidden functionality
<DomasoFan> yeah. there is a little bit of documentation on the orca manual. i guess its in the keyboard shortcuts thingy. should be also findable in the orca settings.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: unfortunately on gnome shell you have to ctrl+alt+tab though the panels which is a little bit annoying. wonder if there are some shortcuts. guess i might get used to it but wonder if there is something. wasn't able to find something in the gnome shell user guide though
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: btw there is also a ubuntu remix called ubuntu gnome shell remix. heard it should be pretty accessible. see here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME
<AlanBell> cool, I had heard about that and was wondering where the download was
<AlanBell> I will give it a go at some point, I am mostly interested in the standard setup
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: seems the bittorrrent links are down for the while
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: currently getting it via http
<DomasoFan> guess i might need to buy some dvd-rw's. hm.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: hmm. seems ubuntu gnome remix has some issues with the installer. seems to hang after the wireless network page. can't even continue without a wireless network. seems to be non accessibility related though.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: i just figured out that the messages tray is accessible in gnome shell.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: just figured that out when i ran rythmbox.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-21
<IgorKaminski> hello
<IgorKaminski> Has anyone tried Ubuntu for Android? How accessible is it?
<AlanBell> IgorKaminski: nobody outside Canonical has tried it at all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-10-17
<DomasoFan> good evening
<SeaJay> Evening
<DomasoFan> wonder if ubuntu once gets its accessibility back. currently ubuntu 13.10 seems still to have the same issues as ubuntu 13.04.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-10-12
<Kivi> hi
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-10-14
<estefanny> hola
