#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-30
<Abom> anyone know where the settings for "desktop effects" are in the configuration editor?
<Elephantman> hello :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-02
<kiowa_> hi
<devian> hallo guys
<w00dr0w> hello?
<swuboo> Yep.
<w00dr0w> sweet
<swuboo> What exactly are you trying to do?
<w00dr0w> I need to transfer the contents of disk to disk1 (basically my c drive to my e drive), both are mounted (as you can prolly tell) but i need root access
<w00dr0w> I dont want to logon as root, and i dont want to sudo it in term
<swuboo> Hrm.
<w00dr0w> by that i mean, do it all using terminal using sudo
<swuboo> You're trying to copy a drive that has system files on it?
<soundray> w00dr0w: is 'sudo -i' an option?
<w00dr0w> it has windows system files on it, but it's not the ubuntu part
<w00dr0w> im on the livecd
<swuboo> Have you considered using Alt-F2 to bring up a command line, and running 'gksudo nautilus'?
<w00dr0w> you know, ive been in linux for about 10hrs total so i dunno many term commands
<w00dr0w> (used mandrake, knoppix, morphix, etc)
<swuboo> That will bring up a copy of the window browser, with root access.
<w00dr0w> sweet
<swuboo> In other words, you won't be logged on as root, but you'll give that particular window root power.
<w00dr0w> gksudo nautilus?
<swuboo> Yeah.
<w00dr0w> ty, will try it now
<soundray> w00dr0w: in the medium term, you should look at basic command line operation:
<soundray> !cli
<ubotu> The linux terminal or command-line interface is very powerful. Open a terminal via Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal (Gnome) or K-menu -> System -> Konsole (KDE).  Guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal
<w00dr0w> can i have 2 windows open (so i can drag n drop)
<soundray> yes
<swuboo> Yeah, just run gksudo nautilus twice.
<w00dr0w> i know about the terminal
<w00dr0w> i just hate it
<w00dr0w> brings me back to the old dos days
<swuboo> I rather enjoy it for exactly that reason.
<swuboo> Childhood nostalgia.
<w00dr0w> lol
<swuboo> "You attempt to ford the Mississippi.  The wagon floods.  Jesus has drowned."
<w00dr0w> i miss that game
<w00dr0w> never got to oregon either
<swuboo> I rather liked the Win 95 sequel.  Where you could buy six hundred gallons of laudanum.
<w00dr0w> always like a town before it before class ended
<swuboo> Nautilus working for you?
<w00dr0w> hrmm
<w00dr0w> its sorta working
<w00dr0w> i cant find the drives now
<w00dr0w> i know they're mounted
<swuboo> What directory are you in?
<w00dr0w> im @ root right now
<w00dr0w> well
<w00dr0w> its "file system"
<swuboo> /media
<w00dr0w> ahh
<w00dr0w> stupid me, i was looking in mnt
<w00dr0w> does the little lock symbol over the drives mean anything?
<swuboo> Yeah.
<swuboo> It means access is limited.
<swuboo> Probably that's because you're looking at a Windows drive, and Linux won't write to NTFS partitions.
<w00dr0w> it cant write to NTFS?
<w00dr0w> oh shat
<w00dr0w> im screwed
<swuboo> I think there are some ways of doing it, but they're unreliable.
<w00dr0w> i thought they had write access for while now?
<swuboo> Maybe I'm behind the times on that.
<swuboo> Could be.
<w00dr0w> well im gonna fsk with the permissions n see if i cant move a file over
<w00dr0w> brb
<swuboo> Good luck.
<swuboo> As an alternative possibility, if you need to get files TO an NTFS partition, you could create a temporary FAT32 partition somewhere.
<w00dr0w> sonofajackhammer
<swuboo> Neither Linux nor Windows have any qualms or problems with FAT32.
<w00dr0w> read only disk
<w00dr0w> yea
<swuboo> If you hit google, you'll probably find a few ways to write to an NTFS partition.
<swuboo> And if memory serves, most of them come with a warning that you might wreck the NTFS partition in the process.
<w00dr0w> the shitty thing is, all i want to do is copy my drive over so i can format it for a clean install of winblows
<swuboo> Hrm.
<w00dr0w> but i can do it in windows because most the files i need copied are "in use"
<w00dr0w> can't*
<swuboo> DOS boot disk?
<swuboo> Or Hell, got a CD burner?
<swuboo> Burn the files from your NTFS partition you want to save onto CD.  When you reinstall windows, it'll have no problem reading the CD's, just because Linux burned them.
<w00dr0w> i gota a burner, but i dont wanna use 10 dvds
<swuboo> It may be your best bet.
<w00dr0w> and they're lightscribe, i dont have any el-cheapos left
<w00dr0w> $1.05 a pop
<swuboo> Hrm.  You're trying to copy a hard drive onto another hard drive, so that you can reformat the first drive, yes?
<w00dr0w> yes
<swuboo> Norton Ghost?
<w00dr0w> just a few files off the first HDD, not like the winbloz folder or sys files
<w00dr0w> no $$$
<swuboo> Just a few files, but those few files would fill ten DVD's?
<w00dr0w> you wouldnt believe how big uncompressed 1080p avi's are
<swuboo> Phewf, yes I would.
<swuboo> So the second drive, that you're moving them /to/.
<swuboo> Is there anything important on it?
<w00dr0w> about 10yrs of work
<swuboo> ...
<swuboo> Right.
<w00dr0w> its my backup drive
<swuboo> Riiiight.
<w00dr0w> well, one of my backup drives
<swuboo> And you can't move these files to your backup from within windows, because windows won't let you move them?
<w00dr0w> nope
<w00dr0w> they're "in use"
<swuboo> I think you might have to use some of those lightscribes.
<swuboo> I would /not/ recommend trying to use someone's jury-rigged NTFS writer to move files of that magnitude onto a partition of that importance.
<w00dr0w> yea, im not gonna risk losing my backups again
<swuboo> I think you've got to suck it up and burn them.
<swuboo> Or postpone a Windows reinstall until you've got cheap discs handy.
<w00dr0w> hrmmm
<w00dr0w> damn you linux coders, wheres my NTFS write access
<w00dr0w> you've had long enough
<w00dr0w> *shakes fist*
<w00dr0w> brb, gonna check other channel to see if someone else can come up with a better solution
<w00dr0w> i mean, its worth the $11 to get them transfered, but the time itd take to burn them all
<swuboo> Good luck.
<swuboo> And yeah, that would be a long, dull process.
<soundray> Even Windows doesn't guarantee damage-free writing to NTFS
<w00dr0w> ...
<w00dr0w> isnt NTFS supposed to be more redundant then fat32
<swuboo> Yeah, which is why Linux has such problems, as I understand it.
<swuboo> NTFS maintains various indexes and journals to help keep track of changes, but those are managed by Windows.
<swuboo> So you'd basically be jamming huge wads of data into the drive without taking advantage of the redundancies, and possibly wrecking them.
<w00dr0w> also, the other problem with the dvd writing
<w00dr0w> i only have 1 optical drive
<w00dr0w> of which ubuntu is currently running off of
<w00dr0w> :'(
<swuboo> That's fine.
<swuboo> You can take the ubuntu disk out, I believe.
<swuboo> Everything it needs should be in memory.
<soundray> swuboo: I'd be very surprised.
<swuboo> I thought you could?
<soundray> No, it isn't
<swuboo> Bugger.
<w00dr0w> didnt think i could either
<soundray> swuboo: you can with knoppix or DSL if you boot with the 'toram' option
<w00dr0w> esp since the disk spins every time i launch an app
<swuboo> Yeah, I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong on that.
<w00dr0w> whats this ntfs-3g?
<w00dr0w> ubotu just suggested it
<swuboo> Pull up Synaptic and take a look.
<w00dr0w> (05:57:08 PM) ubotu: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<w00dr0w> (05:57:37 PM) w00dr0w: you need to have more self esteem, give yourself a little credit
<w00dr0w> (05:57:38 PM) ubotu: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<w00dr0w> he just doesnt listen
<swuboo> No, he's not good at it.
<w00dr0w> so about this ntfs-3g
<w00dr0w> is it reliable?
<swuboo> I only heard of it about, oh, two minutes ago.
<w00dr0w> heh
<w00dr0w> Ubuntu 7.04 can read and write files on the NTFS drives commonly used by Windows. It is necessary to install the NTFS 3G driver  Reference. Follow the steps below.
<swuboo> But, uh, Wikipedia says it is.  If that helps you.
<swuboo> Of course, Wikipedia was wrong about the /name/ of one of my favorite historical figures.
<w00dr0w> who?
<swuboo> Colonel Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck.
<w00dr0w> and dont say lenon
<w00dr0w> heh, a german?
<swuboo> Quite.
<w00dr0w> what was he "famous" for?
<swuboo> One of the most brilliant commanders of the Great War.
<w00dr0w> ahh
<swuboo> He's not particularly famous, actually.
<swuboo> He led the colonial defense force in German Southeast Africa.
<swuboo> Tanzania now.
<w00dr0w> and whatshisface got all the credit
<w00dr0w> nuremburg or whatever
<swuboo> No, no one else really got the credit for his work, but it kinda got sidelined by history.
<swuboo> He was quite famous at the time, though.
<swuboo> German SE Africa was surrounded on all sides by enemy colonies.
<swuboo> By the end of the war, he had more men than he'd started with, all his equipment was captured enemy gear, and when he was ordered to surrender, he was hundreds of miles into British territory.
<swuboo> The British and the Portuguese wasted tens of thousands of troops chasing him around for four years.
<w00dr0w> you'll have to excuse my lack of intelligence ATM, im on some pretty strong meds right now so i cant recall a lot (im a big history buff)
<swuboo> Heh.
<swuboo> By contrast, the Germans only ever sent him one ship of supplies.
<w00dr0w> ohh what was it
<swuboo> Quinine, rubber, ammunition, the usual.
<swuboo> But the thing is--- they only had to send him one ship.
<swuboo> And he started the war with about two thousand troops.
<swuboo> The British committed over a hundred thousand troops to catching him.
<swuboo> And they never did.
<w00dr0w> there was a naval battle in the pacific that was awesome (sorry to change the subject, but maybe you heard of it)
<swuboo> In the first World War?
<w00dr0w> second
<swuboo> Ah, this was First.
<w00dr0w> are you talking about the 1st?
<w00dr0w> ahh no wonder im confused
<swuboo> Yeah, WWI.
<swuboo> Real interesting fellow.
<swuboo> He sat WWII out.
<w00dr0w> you said the big war, so i assumed
<w00dr0w> ;)
<swuboo> WWI was called the Great War until well into WWII.
<swuboo> It was only after people starting calling the Second World War the Second World War that they started calling the last one the First World War.
<swuboo> As for big battles in the Pacific in the Second World War, there were quite a few of those.
<w00dr0w> but back to the naval battle, give me a sec to get my facts stright, but it was like 5 US navy ships (not even like big destroyers or anything, mostly scouts) going up against one of the japanese's strongest fleets
<swuboo> Hrm.  No, I'm not sure I know which one you mean.
<w00dr0w> *heads over to wiki*
<w00dr0w> give me a sec
<w00dr0w> ill get the facts stright
<swuboo> Sure.
<w00dr0w> just gotta remember the prize japanese juggernaught
<swuboo> ] Juggernaut?
<swuboo> Yamato?  Musashi?
<w00dr0w> 2 more seconds, almost got it
<w00dr0w> think it was yamato
<w00dr0w> yea
<w00dr0w> it was the yamato
<swuboo> Heh, Yamato got nailed by several hundred planes when she went down.
<w00dr0w> TAFFY3
<swuboo> Hrm.
<swuboo> Battleships on escort carriers, eh?
<w00dr0w> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taffy_3
<w00dr0w> scroll down to "the forces"
<w00dr0w> like the most lop-sided naval battle ever
<w00dr0w> and we "won"
<swuboo> Heh.
<swuboo> Yeah, so it would appear.
<swuboo> Well, thinking those were fleet rather than escort carriers would be a good reason to bug out.
<w00dr0w> i like the aftermath portion
<w00dr0w> test
<w00dr0w> whew
<w00dr0w> wonder why i couldnt type before
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-03
<shawarma> 7win 6
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-04
<Django84> hi!
<Django84> got a GRUB trouble
<Django84> I fixed my menu.lst, but something is making it go to an old menu.lst
<Django84> yo
<Django84> dudes
<Django84> dudes
<Django84> yo
<ash211> Django84: this channel isn't for support
<ash211> see #ubuntu instead
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-05
<variant> woo
<variant> !rules
<ubotu> The people in this channel are volunteers. Your attitude will determine how fast you are helped. See also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<variant> is there something to describe what this channel is for or how it should be used?
<unimatrix9> its seems to be an class room, but the teacher is absent...
<LjL> !classroom
<ubotu> The Ubuntu Classroom is a project which aims to tutor users about Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu through biweekly sessions in #ubuntu-classroom - For more information visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<nothlit> variant: its also used for open week, and for longer one on ones that would get lost in #ubuntu
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-05-06
<variant> nothlit: cool
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-28
<dinhtrung> is there any Vietnamese here?
<nalioth> dinhtrung: try #ubuntu-vn
<dinhtrung> thanks
<Deiz> Man
<Syntux> Women
<ligemeget> I think I made 'women' a buzzword in my IRC...
<ligemeget> whats up?
<Syntux> WRC was amazing
<Syntux> The opening will start in 8 hours, right?
<ligemeget> What was WRC?
<M0nk3yM4n> Is this where open week is taking place?
<ligemeget> Yes, but not until a couple of hours
<wasikevin> r u awake?
<ragsagar> no proffesional here!
<ragsagar> DrD
<ragsagar> y no one here?
<ragsagar> everybody sleeping?
<ragsagar> hi doc
<ragsagar> u there?
<DrDarshan> yes I am
<ragsagar> haha
<ragsagar> no one here
<ragsagar> feels like a private channel
<ragsagar> iam going
<DrDarshan> mee tu..(me too)
<junaid> hi
<junaid> i want to boot xp in the ubuntu
<Lardarse> junaid: ask in #ubuntu
<junaid> i had already installed both
<Lardarse> ...
<junaid> how to voice chat in ubuntu
<Lardarse> junaid: ask in #ubuntu
<VirianArt> hello
<Donaldiljazi> hi
<Donaldiljazi> is Ubuntu Open Week open?
<Donaldiljazi> hello developers?
<MarkusT> It starts at 15pm UTC.
<rexium> 15:00 or 3pm utc :)
<thsomash> hi
<mhuber> 15:00 UTC is 17:00 CEST (e.g. the time in Germany)
<intengu> has the classstarted
<ubuntued> i think it's at 15:00 utc
<ubuntued> that's in one hour isnt it?
<dholbach> Mo 28. Apr 12:57:56 UTC 2008
<dholbach> run    date -u   on the command line
<dholbach> it always gives you UTC time :)
<wharp> how bout that, that's pretty useful to know
<ubuntued> talking about time, how do u get the unix timestamp of the current time?
<ubuntued> using date (that is)
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ python -c 'import time; print time.time()'
<dholbach> 1209387582.65
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
<dholbach> oh... date... *shrug*
<ubuntued> the python trick is ok too
<funderburg> date +"%s"
<ubuntued> thx
<PAtrik81> if i type date i get 15:10 (correct time), if date -u 13:10 and i'm from slovakia timezone UTC+1 what i doing wrong?
<ubuntued> date -u should be 2:11
<ubuntued> 14:11 i mean
<ubuntued> wrong (13:11)
<tjagoda> Third try is the charm, eh?
<ubuntued> lol
<PAtrik81> :)
<soren> PAtrik81: You have daylight savings time, don't you?
<PAtrik81> not i have CET
<PAtrik81> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B1
<tjagoda> Daylight savings time was a horrible invention. -_-
<PAtrik81> i'm in Europe/Bratislava - Slovakia
<soren> PAtrik81: I know what UTC+1 is.
<ubuntued> although UTC/GMT is 13:11, London time is 14:11 because of daylight saving
<soren> PAtrik81: You set your clocks ahead one hour about a month ago, didn't you?
<PAtrik81> yes
<ragsagar> yeah
<soren> PAtrik81: That's daylight savings time. And that brings you to UTC+2.
<ragsagar> iam able to someones response
<lacteus> last Sunday of March
<ragsagar> iam happy
<ragsagar> hi lacteus
<PAtrik81> ok, my mistake :D i'm time analfabeth =-O
<lacteus> hi :)
<PAtrik81> soren: tnx
<ragsagar> lacteus: Iam from India! wat abt you?
<jcastro> woo, just a few more hours!
<ragsagar> hai jcastro
<lacteus> ragsagar: I'm from France
<jcastro> hi
<ragsagar> wen i came here afternoon,nobody was here
<ragsagar> everyone was busy doing something else
<lacteus> ragsagar: well, I'm at work right now
<jcastro> ragsagar: we start openweek in a bit so people are starting to come here
<ragsagar> ok lacteus
<ragsagar> but there was 64 mems at that time
<arvind_khadri> ragsagar, hi
<ragsagar> lacteus: So you are working for ubuntu??
<Chrysalis> so, 1 hour and half to go right?
<ragsagar> hi arvind_khadri:
<lacteus> ragsagar: lol, no, I'm not. But I want to ;)
<ragsagar> brb
<jcastro> Chrysalis: about, yeah
<arvind_khadri> ragsagar, am from India too
<tjagoda> Uhm..
<Chrysalis> k, just making sure
<lacteus> ragsagar: I'm a software engineer
<tjagoda> Isnt it about 40 minutes to go?
<PAtrik81> interest, here was 143 nicks, and on #ubuntu-classroom-chat was 24 :)
<ubuntued> do you guys have any idea how this will go? (do we get to see some presentation or something) ?
<arvind_khadri> ubuntued, nice point
<intengu1> class at 15:00 utc
<Chrysalis> so whats final, 40min or 1 hour and 40min
<Chrysalis> i am getting confused ;/
<tjagoda> It's 39 minutes now. =P
<tjagoda> Unless I've horrifically managed to bork my time zone calculations, OpenWeek starts in 38 minutes.
<dreamwalker> it depends where are you from
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ date -u
<dholbach> Mo 28. Apr 13:23:39 UTC 2008
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
<dholbach>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek     starts 15:00 UTC
 * tjagoda notes his horrifically borked time zone calculations
<PAtrik81> 1 hour and 38 mins, not?
<jcastro> yes
<Chrysalis> thats what i thought
<dholbach> hey jcastro!
<tjagoda> I should remember to count daylight savings next time. -_-
<jcastro> hi dholbach!
<PAtrik81> tjagoda me too ;)
<tjagoda> So anyway, there's the first lesson of OpenWeek.  Tjagoda never learned how to properly tell time.
<tjagoda> He should be kept very far away from tzdata packages.
<ubuntulover> Im not your guy, friend.
<jcastro> I'm not your friend, guy
<ubuntulover> I'm nut ya guuy, fweeend!
<ragsagar> lacteus: name of you firm?
<ragsagar> lacteus: name of your firm?
<lacteus> ragsagar: well, I won't tell you. It's a very small firm, ~ 50 emp.
<ragsagar> what is ~50 emp?
<lacteus> employee
<ragsagar> lacteus: no need of inferiority complex
<lacteus> lol
<ragsagar> no one here is in such a great position
<ragsagar> :D
<lacteus> it's for my privacy, no complex, just paranoia
<ragsagar> lacteus: its ok
<ragsagar> lacteus: iam not even working
<ragsagar> the number of members are increase rapidly
<artir> only 20 mins remaining
<pavolklacansky> hello
<pavolklacansky> i need some help with rosetta
<lacteus> pavolklacansky: I think you may ask your question to #ubuntu
<pavolklacansky> thx i will join to it
<Balachmar> Isn't it actually 1 hour and 10 minutes remaining?
<tjagoda> Yessir.
<lacteus> yep
<Balachmar> well, because artir, was talking about 20 minutes 10 minutes ago :)
<Balachmar> I started doubting myself
<tjagoda> A lot of us are forgetting daylight savings. =P
<artir> wasnt it at 15:00 GMT?
<Balachmar> yes, but GMT != UK time
<ubuntulover> Oohh... I have 22:54 on my clocks already. I'm going to bed.
<ubuntulover> Have fun, everybody!
<Balachmar> GMT and UTC do not have Daylight saving time
<ubuntued> it starts in 1 hour folks. current time 13:53:13 UTC
<Balachmar> Hence the 1 hour difference
<artir> oops
<artir> XXD
<artir> i will set a UTC ubication on my hardy clock
<tjagoda> A lot of us should set UTC ubications on our hardy clocks. >>
<tjagoda> Has anybody else actually gotten a /slower/ internet browsing experience after their upgrade to hardy?
<artir> mine's is even faster
<Balachmar> hey that is actually a thing missing in the time applet. I wanted to add a new "location" for the utc thing. But you can't select the UTC timezone...
<artir> yep
<yann2> tjagoda > I heard of issues with a wifi driver :)
<artir> im looking on wkiki a country with UTC
<tjagoda> That could be it, but it seems something more firefox related to me
<tjagoda> I mean, the flash performance is a given, but now it seems to even slow down horribly on JavaScript, which I find odd
<rick_h_> tjagoda: dns issuse?
<tjagoda> I've already modified the ipv4 setting
<artir> set and iceland location. They have UTC without DST
<tjagoda> And my DNS settings are well and good.  Everything I have runs off the same DNS, and those work fine.
<tjagoda> For the first time ever my XP firefox runs faster than my Ubuntu Firefox.  -_-
<artir> whats your wifi card?
<tjagoda> It's an Intel
<artir> intels are suposed to play nicely with ubunu
<tjagoda> Worked awsome in 7.10, and everything prior
<artir> i have a 3com usb adapter
<artir> with zd1211 driver and its fine
<tjagoda> I am baffled by it.
<tjagoda> Maybe I'll try turning off visual effects.  Perhaps the restricted driver isnt playing nice with Hardy.
<Panic1> Gutsy Gibbon -> Hardy Heron -> Intrepid Ibex -> Jolly Jumper??
<artir> nein
<artir> or jumpy jackal or jumpy jaguar
<artir> jumpy jackal sounds better
<arvind_khadri> where do we find those names
<artir> there is a list of names and adjetives in the wiki
<arvind_khadri> i mean how come they are out so soon
<artir> of ubuntu
<arvind_khadri> wokay
<arvind_khadri> link please
<artir> i think it would be jumpy jackal, but is not oficiaÃ±
<mike-t> tjagoda, I got slower wireless (rt2500pci) in hardy than in gutsy, but I installed latest compat-wireless and everything is back as it was
<Toznoshio> how much time left?
<jcastro> 52 minutes!
<artir> 52 minutes
<artir> according to a swiss based atomic clock
<tac> Does anyone have any ideas where I might be able to find the best support for a new wireless card for my desktop?
<artir> wiki.ubuntu.com
<tjagoda> compat-wireless, you say?
<tjagoda> I'll tray that, thanks.
<Toznoshio> tac, also check out wicd once you have the driver set
<TankEnMate> how about jingoistic jerboa?
<intengu3> has the class started
<artir> i prefer network manager
<c00l2sv> about network manager
<TankEnMate> intemgu3: nope, it starts in 50 minutes
<artir> intengu3:no
<c00l2sv> I have a question
<tac> Toznoshio: ah thanks. I'll check it out =-)
<artir> ask
<c00l2sv> thx artir : so
<c00l2sv> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/220497
<c00l2sv> Im from romania
<tac> it's a realtek, and they provide drivers for linux, but they provide drivers that don't *work* on ubuntu
<c00l2sv> so here is very popular broadband modems
<c00l2sv> like those using ppp connections
<artir> y
<artir> you can use system-administration-networks
<artir> to get ppp working i think
<c00l2sv> the question is , I just wondered , did anyone tested the "new" network manager
<yann2> I am slightly lost - I thought this was the channel for classroom, it looks like a support channel...
<c00l2sv> before pulling it into the lts hardy, and what where the main reasons for doing that?
<yann2> guys please don't use this as a support chan..
<artir> no idea
<artir> but ubuntu people tend to get the latest
<artir> before release
<artir> xd
<artir> ok
<c00l2sv> imho, it should have been tested before making it part of a lts
<TankEnMate> tac: what is the model of your wireless card?
<tac> It's a rtl8185
<Amaranth> ah good the sessions this time are later in the day
<tjagoda> I strated a flood of support requests by talking about my slow hardy.
<artir> cool:they should have waited some more weeks
<tjagoda> Goodness gracious.
<matiit> My 1st ask to dev's:  why FX 3b5? it is quite unstable... many of my friends have problem with it (i dont use Ubuntu and FX)
<Amaranth> so i can be awake to attend them in the US :)
<TankEnMate> tac: i know rtl8185 support has improved in the latest kernel..
<artir> matiit: 100% stable for me except when i use youtube while listening to music
<c00l2sv> matiit, people tend to get the latest
<TankEnMate> tac: what version of ubuntu are you running?
<Amaranth> matiit: Because Firefox 2 will not be supported by Mozilla for 3 years and Firefox 3 was supposed to be out around the same time as 8.04
<c00l2sv> I'm pretty ok with ff3
<tjagoda> artir, that doesn't count as 100%. =P
<artir> true
<matiit> artir: my Friend hav 100% cpu all time, even no flash www...
<artir> 99,Y%
<TankEnMate> is FF going to be upgrade to the full version when it is released?
<artir> i hope so
<Amaranth> Yes.
<TankEnMate> super!
<tjagoda> I have always had horrific flash performance.  I just dont ask about it anymore.
<tac> TankEnMate: Gibbon
<Amaranth> Flash on linux is horrible
<Amaranth> I wish Adobe cared
<c00l2sv> that why debian are so against it
<Amaranth> Using rickrolls are a benchmark you can prove that flash on windows is twice as fast as flash on linux
<tac> hah
<compwiz18> Flash on linux requires a dual core processor :(
<PecisDarbs> quadro, not dual :)
<c00l2sv> compwiz18, I wouldn't say the same
<PecisDarbs> c00l2sv: it really depends
<artir> comp: i used flash with dapper in a 2,4 ghz 1 core machine witb 256 mb ram
<artir> and it worked
<Amaranth> compwiz18: My computer can't run fullscreen flash video and it's 2Ghz Core Duo with a mobile nvidia chip
<tjagoda> I have a dual, and I still cant look at things with flash and scroll at the same time. =P
<compwiz18> I dunno - it needs more then a single 1.8 core
<artir> 98% cpu bgut it worked
<TankEnMate> tac: you can get the source for the kernel from hardy and build it, you will probably need to get udev from hardy as well..
<PecisDarbs> but sometimes it is very painful to watch Firefox die under Flash
<c00l2sv> only if you're not a big big fan of youtube and watch 50 movies a minute in the same time
<TankEnMate> tac: if you know how to build your own packages you can do it fairly easily..
<jimcooncat> dholbach: I'm going to miss you're packaging sessions tomorrow, and that really bums me out.
<Amaranth> myspace absolutely kills firefox thanks to animated and/or static (non-scrolling) backgrounds and flash
<c00l2sv> btw, with ff3 it is much more stable than in ff2
<tjagoda> We need to highly fund a team of crack engineers to reverse engineer flash for our platform. =P
<tac> TankEnMate: What is udev?
<dholbach> jimcooncat: you can check out the logs afterwards and there's always ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com for questions :)
<TankEnMate> tac: udev is a package that handles the dynamic device entries
<Amaranth> tjagoda: I know a guy you could direct that to :)
<Amaranth> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 28 2008, 14:19:33 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 days
<tac> and by "Build your own packages" what does that entail? I have a mean ./configure;make;make install, but that's about it =-P
<jimcooncat> dholbach: thanks, I'll start making use of that list.
<TankEnMate> tac: it normally ties fairly closely with the kernel you are running..
<dholbach> jimcooncat: rock on!
<dholbach> :)
<Amaranth> ah, jono starts in 40 minutes
<Amaranth> then we have to stop talking here :)
<ccm> hi there
<artir> its something that makes your computer work. DOnt ask how. It just work! XD
<dholbach> hiya ccm
<ccm> hey dholbach :)
<TankEnMate> tac: ahh you will want to build your own deb packages..
<artir> there is a tutorial on Fullcircle
<c00l2sv> tac, why not ask google?
<matiit> my 2nd ask to dev's: Ubuntu handling a media keys in my keyboard. I use Gentoo and there is not it out of the bos, i must do it myself, i use'd good Xmodmap file and credit roght XF86xxxx to good funcion in gnome shortcut set-up... How is it made in Ubuntu? :)
<TankEnMate> tac: if you can handle configure;make;make install you can handle making a package..
<Amaranth> matiit: I assume we just have those xmodmaps done already :)
<tac> http://www.us.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-start.en.html << is something like this what you mean?
<Amaranth> There was a big push a couple years back to get laptops working better
<artir> dowload full circle magazine to get the Making debs:HOWTO
<matiit> Amaranth: hmm, so it is the same what i have in my gentoo box? it isn't faster or sth else... It is identical?, If yes, I'm glad :)
<Amaranth> matiit: Yeah, if the multimedia keys are working they've gotten them working in the same way
<Amaranth> Ubuntu just does it for you :)
<matiit> Amaranth: ok :)
<matiit> Amaranth: good to know :)
<artir> It just works!
<tac> all this kernel talk is making me anxious to go home, but the day has just started
<Amaranth> btw, there is no "ask the devs" session in openweek :)
<jimcooncat> artir: that is a nice article! I'll print it and have lunch with it. pp. 8 - 10 by the way at http://fullcirclemagazine.org/download-manager.php?id=69
<matiit> Amaranth: but dev's are in/on channel
<Amaranth> matiit: Some of them
<Amaranth> But in 30 minutes all the chatter in this channel has to stop so... :)
<TankEnMate0> weird..
<matiit> Amaranth: but everybody can ask about built-how ubuntu?
<Amaranth> Right now, sure
<Amaranth> You may not get an answer there, I'm a desktop guy :)
<Toznoshio> There is also no session on how to get involved, except one called "Ubuntu training"
<TankEnMate0> back..
<Amaranth> s/there/though/
<Amaranth> Toznoshio: The whole thing is about how to get involved, really
<Amaranth> Toznoshio: There are sessions on packaging where I'm sure dholbach will explain a bit about MOTU and the other sessions are specific aspects of getting involved
<Toznoshio> excellent
 * dholbach hugs Amaranth
<Amaranth> Oh, you are here. :)
 * Amaranth hugs dholbach
 * artir hugs everybody in this chat
<matiit> Hmm how you can help with 100% cpu of firefox? My friend has that problem...
<ScottK> We don't really need a "ask developers questions" session because you can do that anytime in #ubuntu-motu.
<matiit> i talk him, that it is firefox beta fault
<artir> matiit: go to #ubuntu to get help
<artir> metiit: more people there
<matiit> artir: ok :)
<PecisDarbs> matiit: install FlashBlock
<tjagoda> I almost feel bad for starting this avalanche of support inquiries =P
<PecisDarbs> :)
<RoAkSoAx> Open Week starts in about two hours right?
<Amaranth> ScottK: Well, I dunno if that would be the place to go to ask about why we have firefox 3b5 in hardy :)
<tjagoda> Starts in about half an hour
<Amaranth> RoAkSoAx: 30 minutes
<ScottK> True.
<artir> half an hour
<ScottK> Although we get asked often enough.
<RoAkSoAx> thanks Amaranth :)
<tac> What does CPU usage actually reflect in the underlying hardware? Since the CPU is constantly fetching and executing instructions?
<ScottK> Amaranth: Isn't there some kind of FAQ that could go in.
<matiit> artir: all time will be expositions?
<tjagoda> Does anybody know when Firefox 3 full will be finished?
<TankEnMate0> tac: http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ that will give you a quick guide to building your own deb packages.. it is aimed at the debian distribution, but it does have almost all the basics covered..
<ligemeget> tac, ask in #ubuntu - this is not a support channel
<Amaranth> tac: Amount of otherwise idle time the process is being scheduled for
<ligemeget> Well... Not in that sense at least
<rick_h_> dholbach: how goes, been meaning to say the updates docs for the hands on packaging are very nice. Used as a basis for my penguicon talk
<rick_h_> much lower barrier to entry there
<tac> ligemeget: how is my question support? I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm just curious
<dholbach> rick_h_: hey - how are you doing? good work on the packaging jam! :)
<ligemeget> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek is very friggin' outdated!
<rick_h_> well, more talk than jam this last time
<ligemeget> (I think...)
<Amaranth> Oh, I guess we should change the topic...
<dholbach> ligemeget: you might want to take a look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek :)
<TankEnMate0> rick_h_: but I like jam :(
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Please join #ubuntu for support | This channel used for scheduled classes and invitational tutoring | Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules
<dholbach> thanks Amaranth
<Amaranth> That was easy, just s/Developer/Open/ and everything works :)
<rick_h_> TankEnMate0: then jam away
<Amaranth> Although that's going to be too long if we also want to stick the current session in the topic
<TankEnMate0> I'll take strawberry thanks..
<TankEnMate0> :)
<ligemeget> tac, sorry, my mistake
<artir> friday we have ask mark :)
<TankEnMate0> i think simon.freenode.net is hung..
<rick_h_> what's the chat channel that goes with this? just #ubuntu-chat?
<Amaranth> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<tjagoda> Yup ^
<TankEnMate0> #ubuntu-classroom-chatr
<rick_h_> ty sir
<Amaranth> When the sessions start that is were you ask questions
<TankEnMate0> s/chatr/chat/
<ligemeget> How long is the Welcoming session? All the way 'till 16:00 UTC?
<rick_h_> yea, I figured I'd load it up now
<Amaranth> then someone from the IRC Team or the person running the session copies them over to here and answers the question
<tac> It's just something I always wondered about. Because the kernel, X11, and tons of daemons are always running on your computer, but it's only when I run "yes" or try to compute factorial . factorial 100 that my computer starts heating up
<rick_h_> need to figure out how to explain to my boss my unproductive week with all this openweek irc time
<tjagoda> Really.
<Amaranth> tac: Because they aren't really doing anything, they just sit idle waiting for you to do something
<tjagoda> All across the world, productivity of developers and IT workers is dropping right now.  =P
<tac> (though that's probably because of the harddrive and excessive use of swap space in the latter case)
<artir> tjagoda: the productivity always drop on april and october =D
<Toznoshio> Wouldn't it be nice if the instructor used a sound streaming server?
<TankEnMate0> tjagoda: this is sharpening the axe time.. read up on your 7 habits of effective people..
<TankEnMate0> :)
<tjagoda> What are the 7 habits of effective people?
<jcastro> Amaranth: who from the irc team is helping out for the first session?
<rexium> tjagoda: go get the book out of a library :)
<Amaranth> jcastro: Apparently I am. :)
<Toznoshio> tjagoda: there is a book by Steven Covey by that title
<jcastro> rock!
<Amaranth> I have too many hats :P
<rexium> \m/?
<jcastro> Amaranth: how about the logging?
<Amaranth> jcastro: I'm not sure how that works, something should be doing it automatically
<jcastro> ok
<Amaranth> But I guess not
<Toznoshio> Amaranth: logs at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<Amaranth> Toznoshio: Right, but I think jcastro meant logs split for each session
<TankEnMate0> Amaranth: sed? :)
<Amaranth> Well, the logs on irclogs are delayed 30 minutes
<TankEnMate0> amaranth: Sarbanes Oxley? :)
<tjagoda> lol
<Amaranth> cron job, probably :P
<tjagoda> Lets just assume that logging works. =P
<TankEnMate0> log log log its better than wood, its LOG!
<rexium> "It runs over the neighbours dog! It's log log log!"
<mahmoud2> !log\
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about log\ - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<mahmoud2> !log
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - See also !OpenWeek - See also !OpenWeek
<ligemeget> !kde
<ubotu> KDE (http://kde.org) is the !desktop environment used natively in !Kubuntu. To install from Ubuntu: Â« sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop Â», or see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingKDE . Latest KDE version is 3.5.8 for Gutsy and Feisty, 3.5.6 for Edgy, and 3.5.5 for Dapper. See http://kubuntu.org for more information.
<Amaranth> my logs don't have timestamps :/
<ligemeget> nice
<Martian> !pony
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about pony - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<artir> !ubotu
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<ligemeget> !dholbach
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about dholbach - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<ligemeget> just curious
<Amaranth> !botabuse
<ubotu> Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots (type also /msg ubotu Bot). Don't use commands in the public channels if you don't know if they really exist. Also avoid adding joke/useless factoids.
<artir> !sabdfl
<ubotu> Mark "sabdfl" Shuttleworth is our favourite cosmonaut, the founder of Canonical and the primary driver behind Ubuntu. You can find pieces of his thinking at http://www.markshuttleworth.com
<Amaranth> jcastro: Dunno what to do about logs, xchat-gnome is stupid about them :P
<jcastro> Amaranth: I was just making sure they show up on irclogs.u.c
<jcastro> that's fine, we can split them later
<Amaranth> Alright, ubuntulog takes care of that
<TankEnMate0> ãããããããï¼
<Amaranth> Alright, I'll be back in like 10 minutes, I hope.
<ogasawara> TankEnMate0: hi :)
<Amaranth> If not jcastro can run the session himself :)
<Toznoshio> TankEnMate0: nice painting, is it by Salvador Dali? :P
<TankEnMate0> toznoshio: nope, its Japanese, although your IRC client needs to understand utf8 to be able to display it..
<Martian> TankEnMate0, what does that mean?
<TankEnMate0> Martian: it said "Honourable Ogawara!" :)
<tjagoda> He's secretly cursing at us in foreign tongues.
<TankEnMate0> tjagoda: not yet :)
<tjagoda> Heh
<rubicon_> yet?
<TankEnMate0> the day is young..
<TankEnMate0> well here at least :)
<Martian> 16:49 here.
<rubicon_> here's almost midnight...
<tjagoda> 10:50 AM here
<DooMRunneR> GMT+1 rockzzZZZ :D
<tjagoda> UTC -5 ftw!
<Martian> GMT+2!
<artir> ä½ å¥½ãä½ å¯ä»¥çè¿ä¸ª
<artir> GMT
<Martian> é©¬
<rubicon_> ÐºÐ¸ÑÐ°Ð¹ÑÑ Ð±Ð»Ð¸Ð½
<artir> scim FTW
<TankEnMate0> martin: hoe gart tet?
<TankEnMate0> martin: is that the right spelling?
<Martian> Random chinese character.
<artir> no
<Toster> 16:53 here
<artir> i know how to speak chinese
<artir> im in second
<Martian> I can use Scim but not chinese.
<gringo> sorry to spoil the fun, but wasn't #ubuntu-classroom-chat supposed to be the main chatty channel?
<artir> you have to loom for "pinyin" on synaptic
<artir> y
<LainIwakura> Maritan: Give gcin a try
<TankEnMate0> gringo: yeah it is, but i guess people are waiting to be told to move their chat over..
<TankEnMate0> i guess..
<LainIwakura> Martian: I tried for several..weeks. Gcin solved my problem in a day.
<LainIwakura> I tried scim*
<Jared> I've joined both channels. Using chatzilla here.
<Martian> Ah, well. Scim works for me. BTW did I say mother or horse?
<TankEnMate0> last one looked like horse
<TankEnMate0> a simplified chinese horse that is..
<artir> "ma" means horse/mother or to make a question
<Martian> And hemp or scold.
 * rubicon_ wonders what unsimplified chinese horse look like
<dholbach> hey jono
<LainIwakura> é©¬
<artir> wait the question was with a box å
<LainIwakura> ^ like that
<jono> hi all
<rubicon_> jeez
<artir> hi
<LainIwakura> Hello, this is my first time here.
<LainIwakura> What is today's lesson?
<Jared> I got up early just for the chat sessions today LOL. 8 am here on the west coast.
<artir> =
<TankEnMate0> é¦¬ is the Japanese, which I think hasn't been simplified..
<Martian> LainIwakura, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<TankEnMate0> but my Japanese etymology is almost non existant..
<LainIwakura> TankEnMate0: No that's the Chinese character which the Japanese took. = =
<Amaranth> 4 minutes :)
<mybunche> It's 11pm in Australia
<rubicon_> looks like ancient tank or something
<Amaranth> I hope the current session info fits in the topic
<artir> 16 pm in canary islands
<LainIwakura> Martian: Thanks for the link.
<jimcooncat> mybunche: yesterday or today?
<Potnis> 16 pm?
<LainIwakura> So what time is it in UTC?
<ragsagar> so many members now
<Marijn> LoL , whats the cap of participants ?
<TankEnMate0> LainIawakura: I understand yes, however Japanese took their own take at simplifying them.
<ragsagar> lacteus:
<ragsagar> u there?
<Toster> 16:59 in Poland
<rubicon_> @now
<Martian> 14:57
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 28 2008, 14:57:23 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 days
<ragsagar> so active and ubotu is also here
<LainIwakura> Thanks.
<Potnis> oh..
<Potnis> its not pm then
<mybunche> jimcooncat:11pm Mon
<TankEnMate0> Mon Apr 28 14:57:49 UTC 2008
<LainIwakura> So today is Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! - Jono Bacon ?
<jcastro> yep
<LainIwakura> Or the next one
<artir> 3 minutes
<artir> wait
<LainIwakura> Awesome
<artir> XD
<TankEnMate0> in two minutes time yes..
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Current Session:  Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! - Jono Bacon
<Amaranth> yay it fit
<Potnis> so what we'll be allowed to chat when the session is going on?
<Martian> 1min 3
<Amaranth> no
<Amaranth> !chat
<ubotu> The Instant Messenger Client Pidgin (formerly Gaim) (http://help.ubuntu.com/community/GaimHowto) supports MSN, Jabber, AIM, Gadu-Gadu, Novell Groupwise, ICQ and IRC. See also !Kopete
<Amaranth> crap
<Martian> *23
 * TankEnMate0 moves his inane chatting to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Amaranth> Random chatter in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Amaranth> You also ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat but make sure you start them with "QUESTION:" and/or my name so I see them
<MarkusT> Just a short proposal: Everyone with a twitter account should twitter the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek URL, since http://twitturly.com/ is featured on digg.com right now.
<artir> 16:00
<Marijn> 17:00
<jono> alrighty
<Toster> 17
<jono> lets give it a few more mins to let latecomers come along :)
<Amaranth> !chat
<ubotu> Please use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for random chatter and asking questions. Questions should start with "QUESTION:" so we can spot them.
<Amaranth> :)
<jono> Amaranth: you are my tag-team buddy for questions right?
<leftyfb> jono: how was "the other side" last week? :)
<Amaranth> jono: yep
<jono> Amaranth: wicked :)
<jono> leftyfb: the other side?
<leftyfb> wasn't that the name of the bar you ended up going to after the release party?
<leftyfb> <~~~~ Mike
<jono> leftyfb: oh...yeah - we went there, it was booked out, so went to another bar
<jono> :)
<ragsagar> no classes today?
<leftyfb> ah
 * LainIwakura is very excited about the classroom
 * jono high fives leftyfb
<jono> right, lets begin
<jono> firstly.....
<jono> WELCOME TO UBUNTU OPEN WEEK!! :)
 * c00l2sv :)
<Toster> Hi :)
<jono> For those of you who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community  Manager
<popey> eek
<jono> I work every day to help ensure the Ubuntu community is a welcoming, enjoyable, fun place to be, in which we do good work and march towards bug #1
<jono> I run a team of three of us at Canonical (which includes Daniel Holbach, who is dholbach, and Jorge Castro, who is jcastro) and work with the entire Ubuntu community to help grow and optimise how we all work together
<jono> the aim of Ubuntu Open Week is to produce a week of interesting and informative IRC sessions explaining  how to get involved in the Ubuntu community
<jono> we have a huge range of sessions on offer, given by real leaders in our community
<jono> this is an excellent opportunity to learn from the people who are very deeply involved with every aspect of Ubuntu
<jono> from development, to documentation, to bugs, to testing, to packaging, to virtualisation, to training and more
<jono> and with this Ubuntu Open Week, we have even more diversity in sessions
<jono> we have a rocking week ahead of us, thats for sure
<jono> I wanted to kick off by firstly explaining how the week works
<jono> you can firstly see the schedule for the week at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Robert125> hehe I came at the right moment
<jono> this shows the range of different sessions going on
<jono> all session times are UTC - you can see the current time in your area as UTC by opening a terminal and typing "date -u"
<wasikevin> date -u
<jono> all sessions begin sharp on the time, so we recommend that you get to the session a few minutes early to ensure you are there
<pak33m|work> date -u
<pak33m|work> soory
<jono> don't type it here
<Amaranth> !chat
<ubotu> Please use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for random chatter and asking questions. Questions should start with "QUESTION:" so we can spot them.
<bjwood> lol
<jono> you type it in a terminal
<ccm> ah, that's better: /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
<pak33m|work> wrong window thats all
<jono> Applications->Accessories->Terminal
<jono> pak33m|work: :)
<stdin> or KMenu -> System -> Konsole for KDE users
<jono> thanks stdin :)
<CafeNinja> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS
<CafeNinja> oops.
<jono> all sessions will take place in this room
<qhartman>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
<jono> and each session will have the leader of the session teach the content as a constant stream of IRC messages
<jono> if you want to discuss the session, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ruiwen> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
<jono> in there you can discuss the session as it continues
<ligemeget> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
<checkerTR58> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
<jono> people, stop with the ignore messages
<jrib> that /ignore thing won't do anything if you leave spaces in the beginning other than spam the channel :)
<Odd-rationale> guys, don't put a space infront of the /
<jono> we will finish this session a little early for you to set up /ignore - please stop doing it now
<ragsagar> how i can escape from this messages?
<Hobbsee> ragsagar: type /part
<ragsagar> hi jono
<Gektor> )
<jono> questions are an important part of open week
<jono> as a session is going on you are welcome to  ask a bunch of questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> but start each question with this: "QUESTION:" - and then your question
<jono> for example:
<jono> QUESTION: Jono, why is your beard so cool?
<jono> or maybe:
<jono> QUESTION: Is it true that you are so metal, that you eat small cars for breakfast?
<jono> most session speakers will then pick out the questions as they go, or have a bunch of questions at the end of the session
<jono> if anyone has any problems, or questions, or uncertainties about Ubuntu Open Week - please forward them towards jcastro
<jono> he is able to help
* Hobbsee changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Current Session:  Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! - Jono Bacon | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:"
<jono> now, can everyone give me a big "whooooo!" in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
<jono> :)
<jono> hehe, rock and roll :)
<jono> ok, I am gonna take a bunch of questions now - Amaranth, hero to all, could you paste them in for me?
<Amaranth> <TankEnMate> QUESTION: jono, which session are you most looking forward to attending (apart from your own)?
<jono> TankEnMate: there are a range of really good sessions that I think will be great
<jono> this includes:
<jono> Ubuntu Bugsquad + Triaging Bugs - Pedro Villavicencio
<jono> Packaging 101 - Sessions 1 and 2 - Daniel Holbach <--- great for getting started with MOTU
<jono> KDE 4 - Richard Johnson
<jono> Producing Podcasts in Ubuntu - Alan Pope
<jono> The Future of the Ubuntu Desktop - Ted Gould
<jono> Make X rock! - Bryce Harrington
<jono> Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth
<jono> and a bunch more
<jono> also....while I think about it
<Amaranth> All of them! :)
<jono> come to my next session on Wednesday at 16.00 UTC - that sessions is a general Q+A about anything in the community - come with your burning questions :)
<Amaranth> <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: What measures has the ubuntu community taken to make it as simply as possible for new members to get involved?
<jono> Odd-rationale: great question! lots of measures, we are always trying to think of new ways to make the community as simple, open and transparent as possible
<jono> in terms of ease of participation we have weeks such as this, as well as Ubuntu Developer Week
<jono> there are regular online meetings for a range of teams - for example the MOTU team (who work on packaging) have weekly meetings, Q+A sessions and tutorial sessions
<jono> we also like to work with LoCo teams to run localised face to face sessions and more
<Hobbsee> jono: fortnightly meetings.
<Hobbsee> nto weekly.
<jono> Hobbsee: ahhhh oops
<jono> we also work to create an open and transparent community - and have the Code of Conduct, the Community Council and various other team councils to help keep things open and friendly
<Amaranth> <ligemeget> QUESTION: Will the different sessions end right before the next session begins, or is it more random?
<jono> ligemeget: all sessions start on time, but some sessions do finish a little early
<Hobbsee> edit:  nto == not.  Typo, sorry.
<Amaranth> <pimanx> QUESTION: Jono, how many people do you expect to join this time Open Week sessions? And in comparison to the last Open Week? (if you have any stats on that)
<Amaranth> Not sure about that one.
<jono> typically, open week attracts around 300 people to some sessions
<jono> some sessions are obviously more populated than others - the Ask Mark session is typically very heavy, with often 500 or more people there
<jono> but this is the great thing about Ubuntu Open Week - there is room for everyone :)
<Amaranth> <Martian> QUESTION: Do you think that a large part of ubuntu success is due to its community?
<jono> Martian: for sure
<jono> Ubuntu is a very community focussed distribution - the community openness and processes have been there from the very beginning
<jono> this is what attracted me to my current job - I loved and still do love the fact that Ubuntu is so community orientated
<jono> but there is always room for improvement, always amazing things that we can do - there is so much excitement and buzz around Ubuntu that the Ubuntu community is an amazing place to be :)
<jono> as Ubuntu heads forward and becomes an ubiquitous Operating System, we will never compromise on our community ethos - we will always work to ensure the community is an open, inviting and inspiring place to be
<Amaranth> <PAtrik81> QUESTION: What about ubuntu local communities, how you help to this goups. How you solve support (throught local communities?) in other languages than english? Can non-english speaking peoples participate in central ubuntu community (for example bug reporting)?
<Amaranth> mybunche asked a similar question but just about asia and africa
<jono> PAtrik81: wow, a bunch of questions in there:
<jono> PAtrik81: local communities is critical to our mission
<jono> we believe that everyone should have access to free software, and it should also be available in their local language and there should be a local community that is part of the wider global community
<jono> most of the work here happens with our incredible LoCo Teams project - a project with over 160 groups all over the world to meet and get exciting and stoked up about Ubuntu
<jono> these teams help spread the word about Ubuntu and support Ubuntu users in their area
<jono> in terms of the participation of non-english speaking contributors - the community is very much orientated around English - we need a fairly consistant language so the entire community can communicate, and that language is English - however, there are many areas that non-English speaking contributors can help, and LoCo teams is a great example
<Amaranth> <Toznoshio> QUESTION: Which are the skills in demand so to speak to get involved in the Ubuntu community?
<jono> Toznoshio: it depends on what you want to do :) we want to make the community welcoming to a range of skills
<jono> so if you like technical subjects such as packaging and development, we have teams such as MOTU to get started with
<jono> if you like testing software, finding and investigating bugs - the QA team is a great place to be
<jono> if you like writing, the Documentation Team is a great place to help
<jono> etc, etc
<jono> a core ambition we have is to ensure that *everyone* can help if they have something to offer :)
<Amaranth> <Mez> QUESTION: what aspect of the Ubuntu community do you see as the most important?
<jono> Mez: great question :)
<jono> Mez: openness
<jono> community is fundamentally based on trust
<jono> people need to ensure that the community leaders and the processes that they develop are in the best interests of the community as a whole
<jono> trust is incredibly important to me - I want everyone in this room and in the wider community to be able to trust me
<jono> and this ethos needs to be spread widely in the community
<jono> we can achieve this open processes, open governance and more
<jono> this is why we have the Community Council and other councils such as the MOTU Council, Forums Council and the awesome recently formed LoCo Council
<Amaranth> <Wicks> QUESTION: Where can we find a LoCo team and get involved?
<jono> Wicks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList :)
<Amaranth> <popey> QUESTION: Community, community, community, community community?
<Amaranth> (out of questions)
<jono> popey: good question
<jono> community :)
<jono> someone asked how they trust me
<jono> let me tend to that
<jono> it was Lardarse
<Amaranth> Yeah, wanted them to phrase it better
<jono> I am not expecting anyone to just intrinsicly trust
<jono> me
<jono> and I am certainly not expecting people to trust me because I work at Canonical or I have the job title of Ubuntu Community Manager
<jono> trust is something that is earned, and I would like people to look at my actions and my work in the community and use that as a basis for trust
<jono> I put the interests of the Ubuntu community forward as the utmost importance in my work
<jono> and I want the community to feel that I am our there, every day, keeping the interests of the community at the forefront in my mind
<jono> and this includes ensuring the community is well prioritised in places such as Canonical
<jono> and I want to be 100% clear:
<jono> if anyone feels like they don't trust me, or anyone feels like I am doing something wrong, email me, tell me, let me know - jono AT ubuntu DOT com - the door is always open :)
<Amaranth> <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: What has ubuntu done that other distros have not that we were able to increase our user base so much in 4 years? What can ubuntu learn from other foss communities? What can others learn from us?
<jono> Odd-rationale: ok a few things here:
<jono> in terms of what Ubuntu has done, and think we have carved out an ethos and delivered on it - to make free software readily available in a reliable, easy to use form
<jono> we have worked to ensure people use Ubuntu and the can say "it just works"
<jono> in terms of learning from other communities - there is always lots to learn, and I am regularly in touch with other community leaders to share notes and explore new and different ideas
<jono> and also, if you have ideas for how our community should run, do let me know :)
<Amaranth> <dinda> QUESTION:  Are there any plans for an Ubuntu User Conference focused on Community/Users, not Ubuntu Live which is focused on business?
<jono> dinda: I have thought about this in the past - I think it would be an interesting thing to do - there are no fixed plans right now though
<jono> let me ask people the question (answer in #ubuntu-classroom-chat):
<jono> would you all be interested in a physical conference about the Ubuntu community?
<Amaranth> <ubuntued> QUESTION: How do you plan to get Ubuntu to the masses (regular computer users)?
<jono> ubuntued: we need to get it to the passes by continuing to make free software easy to use, intuitive and inspiring - and everyone can help here - everyone should actively spread the word - every little helps
<Amaranth> <PAtrik81> QUESTION: Can ubuntu community have a say on decisions about movement of ubuntu?
<jono> PAtrik81: of course - our community is open - I am always keen to hear your comments and views, and the COmmunity Council is a great place to express views and opinions about proposed processes
<Amaranth> <PAtrik81> QUESTION: How interoperable ubuntu community with other communities like kubuntu,xubuntu or communities other non ubuntu like distros?
<jono> PAtrik81: very interoperable - at a technical level, each of these distros uses the same core platform - essentially, everything below the GUI - at a community level, each of these distros also uses our CoC, uses our processes (such as Ubuntu Membership), joins the LoCo teams and  more
<Amaranth> <nixternal> QUESTION: With community membership, what is the status of the Regional Membership Teams? When will these be established (so I can answer questions about it as they are pm'd to me at least 4 times per day)
<jono> nixternal: they are pretty much finalised - the CC is just finalising their set-up - I expect them to be in place this week or next week
<jono> ok one more question Amaranth
<Amaranth> <jimcooncat> QUESTION: Will there be better marketing tools available soon? I'd love to run a 30-minute TV show on our local community channel.
<jono> jimcooncat: the marketing team is something I am personally interested in seeing grow - I would love to see you do something such as a local TV show, and get deeply involved in  the marketing team
<Amaranth> Do we have an event box or something?
<jono> if you do do the show, let me know - that would be super cool :)
<jono> Amaranth: event boxes are on my TODO list - I want them for Approved LoCo teams
<jono> right
<jono> thats me done
<jono> my next session is on Wednesday at 16.00 UTC where you can bring more questions
<jono> everyone, have a fantastic open week! :)
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session:  QA: Using piuparts to test your packages - Lars Wirzenius
<Amaranth> liw: Looks like you're next. Want me to take off the +m?
<liw> Amaranth, let's try without +m, I guess most people have done their /ignore mistakes already; I would like to have someone relay questions from -chat, if possible
<Amaranth> Yep, I'm still here for that.
<liw> thank you
<Amaranth> Or one of the other ops, if they want to take over, I wouldn't mind a break. :)
<[Chief]>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<liw> that didn't take long :)
<Amaranth> liw: Maybe not. :P
<jhamer> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS PARTS QUITS
<liw> Amaranth, I guess we want +m back
<LainIwakura> QUESTION: Are there steps being taken to better integrate the larger English-speaking Ubuntu community with communities such as Taiwan Ubuntu, which has a very small community and little support to speak of, in terms of documentation, IRC users, and forum users, at least compared to the English-speaking community?
<Amaranth> LainIwakura: That question is offtopic for this session.
<liw> I guess it's time to start
<Amaranth> Yep
<liw> this session is meant for people who package stuff for ubuntu (or debian or other distros using the .deb format)
<liw> piuparts is a tool for testing whether a package can be installed and removed, or installed, upgraded, and removed
<liw> traditionally, that is done by the developer/package maintainer installing it on their own system, and then perhaps removing it, too
<liw> piuparts makes that testing more systematic by automating it
<liw> this is useful for people making .deb packages: a minimal check of whether anything at all works
<liw> case 1: you have a new package, and want to make sure it can be installed and then removed (and purged) to a pristine system
<liw> case 2: you have a new version of a package, and want to make sure it can be upgraded from the previous version, already in the archive, and then removed
<liw> there are other cases, but mostly for doing distribution wide QA, so we'll ignore those for now
<liw> piuparts does not test that the program contained in the package actually works, just that the packaging (postinst and other maintainer scripts) work
<liw> for testing whether the program itself works, other tools are needed, such as autopkgtest
<liw> piuparts checks for some common errors as well, such as broken symlinks, missing dependencies required by maintainer scripts, and that the package cleans up after itself when removed and purged
<liw> this concludes my intro :)
<Amaranth> <Mez> QUESTION: If it picks up common errors, why not add these checks to linda/lintian ?
<liw> lintian does not actually run any of the package's maintainer scripts, piuparts does; the things piuparts check for are for things that lintian cannot check for because of this
<liw> (linda has been removed, all its functionality is now provided by lintian, but the same answer applies)
<Amaranth> next?
<liw> oh, yeah, sorry: next
<Amaranth> <TankEnMate> QUESTION: does piuparts handle dynamically created files? (ie files that were created by post-inst rather than in the package proper)
<liw> TankEnMate, yep, piuparts handles everything that postinst does, except it prevents it from starting services
<liw> next
<Amaranth> <asomething> ï»¿QUESTION: Will ï»¿piuparts be run against all uploads to REVU?
<liw> piuparts the name is short for "package installation, upgrading, and removal testing suite" (I peeked in -chat and saw someone ask that)
<liw> I hope piuparts will be run on all uploads to all parts of Ubuntu; I meant to work on that, but got diverted to other things, so it didn't happen for hardy, but let's see what we can make happen for intrepid
<Amaranth> <lucash> QUESTION: is piuparts ubuntu specific or working on debian, too?
<liw> lucash, I originally wrote it specifically for Debian; in fact, it needs some tweaking to work really well for Ubuntu, primarily because Debian has all interesting packages in "main", while Ubuntu's "main" is very small
<Amaranth> <stdin> QUESTION: do you think piuparts will be added to debuild, as lintian is now, so it can be ran automatically before upload?
<liw> stdin, that sounds like an excellent things to suggest to the debuild maintainers
<liw> stdin, however, piuparts can be quite slow, and requires root access (for the time being), so it's not a good thing to run it always
<Amaranth> Answer to the REVU question is no because piuparts is for binary packages and REVU only deals with source packages. (right?)
<Amaranth> <Mez> QUESTION: how often does piuparts produce false positives/negatives - and - with this in mind, what benefits does using it have over doing these tests manually
<liw> Amaranth, correct on binary packages and piuparts; I guess it would be possible to test-build the packages in REVU and use piuparts on those
<liw> Mez, piuparts is pretty good, but not perfect, and it's just imperfect enough that running it on the entire package archive (20 thousand packages) is a bit of a pain when it comes to sorting the results; for people working on a small set of packags, the problems should usually not be visible
<liw> the benefit of testing with piuparts is that it is tireless, and does things the same way every time, which is good for quality control; testing things manually, when it's past 05 AM and you needed to be in bed eight hours ago to catch your 07 AM flight... well, manual testing is not as even in quality as automatic testing is
<Amaranth> <lucash> QUESTION: do you recommend to run piuparts in a chroot or virtual machine, as it seems to need root atm?
<liw> piuparts builds the chroot itself (I'll get to how piuparts works in a moment); running piuparts in kvm or virtualbox or another virtual machine is probably a good idea, if you're testing other people's packages
<Amaranth> <stdin> QUESTION: What was the inspiration for piuparts?
<liw> stdin, in 2005 I had a consulting gig for a client to do some QA work on Debian, and I got tired of fixing bugs and testing things manually, so I wrote piuparts instead
<liw> next I'll continue with an explanation of how piuparts works, and I*ll take more questions after that
<liw> piuparts works by using a chroot; this requires you to run it as root
<liw> it installs a minimal debian or ubuntu system in the chroot, using debootstrap, and then installing the package and any dependencies it needs, possibly upgrades to a newer version of the package (but not necessarily its dependencies), and then removes and purges the package
<liw> piuparts takes a snapshot of the list of files in the chroot before installing the package, and after removing it, and compares these lists, and complains about any differences
<liw> it also keeps track of file modifications
<liw> obviously, things that always change, such as /var/log/*, are automatically ignored
<liw> to prevent daemons etc from starting, piuparts uses the policy-rc.d mechanism: it creates a /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d that always exits with 101, signalling that no services should start in the chroot; this makes it safer to run piuparts
<liw> chroot is not a very safe virtualization mechanism, so if you are testing other people's code, you may want to run it inside kvm or other real virtualization
<liw> after you've digested that, questions please
<Amaranth> <Amaranth> Is there any sort of override system to make it ignore 'errors' like lintian?
<liw> Amaranth, there are some options to disable some tests, but nothing as fancy as lintian has; that's something that should be fixed some day in the future
<Amaranth> <gringo> QUESTION: "... takes a snapshot of the list of files in the chroot ..." can it also track changes to existing files?
<liw> gringo, yeah, it does that, too
<Amaranth> <funderburg> QUESTION: What if you wanted it to check /var/log to ensure a specific log directory got created?  Like /var/log/named for instance?  Can you override it?
<liw> funderburg, that's an interesting idea; I hadn't thought of it, so currently the answer is "no, sorry"; also something that needs to be fixed in piuparts in the future: make it easily customizable for different uses
<Amaranth> <mbt> QUESTION: Is it relatively easy to implement pipuarts as a hook to pbuilder?
<liw> mbt, I haven't used pbuilder hooks, but from what I know, it should be possible; I do things by running pbuilder first, then lintian, then piuparts
<liw> (I have a script that does that, actually, but that's irrelevant for this)
<liw> if someone has a cool way of integrating pbuilder and piuparts with pbuilder hooks, please file a wishlist bug against piuparts in the Debian bug tracking system (bugs.debian.org), since that's where upstream development happens
<Amaranth> Can we get your script? :)
<Amaranth> <lucash> QUESTION: is piuparts capable of being used for all Debian supported architectures?
<liw> http://liw.iki.fi/liw/unperish/ is my script, but it's still somewhat specific to my particular circumstances, so might not work for others
<liw> lucash, as far as I know, yes
<liw> so far nobody has asked the really important question: how do you use piuparts
<Amaranth> hehe, let's do that one then :)
<liw> I thought you'd never ask :)
<Amaranth> <Amaranth> QUESTION: How do I use piuparts?
<liw> first, you have to have or build a .deb file, which I will refer to as foo.deb in this session
<liw> the command line to run piuparts to test foo.deb is.... wait for it...
<liw> piuparts foo.deb
<liw> this is not the optimal way of doing it, just the simplest way
<liw> you may also want to prefix that with "sudo ", so you run it as root, otherwise it won't work
<liw> the reason that is not the optimal way is because piuparts installs a debian or ubuntu system into the chroot, and then all the dependencies... and then removes them
<liw> that can be a lot of packages
<liw> to speed things up a bit, you can "cache" the contents of the chroot (before foo.deb + deps are installed)
 * liw waves to Mez
 * Mez waves back
<liw> the simple way of doing the caching is by having piuparts re-use the tarball that pbuilder creates, the basetgz one
<liw> like this: sudo piuparts -p foo.deb
<liw> piuparts can also build its own tarball: sudo piuparts -s pink.tar.gz foo.deb
<liw> the -s means "save", so you need to run piuparts once with -s
<liw> then the remaining time, you can just use it: sudo piuparts -b pink.tar.gz foo.deb
<liw> now, the next thing I'm going to tell you is how to interpret the piuparts output
<liw> unfortunately, since packages can fail in so innovative and amazing ways, piuparts does not try to analyze things in much detail, it just tells you whether the package test was a PASS or a FAIL, or whether there was an ERROR
<liw> but at least it output hundreds of kilobytes of text in which it embeds that result... ;-)
<liw> piuparts by default logs everything: all the commands it runs, and all their output, and this is a lot of text
<liw> towards the end (not always quite at the end, but usually within the last 50 lines or so), there is a line with PASS, FAIL, or ERROR, and that tells you the result
<liw> reading the surrounding log will almost always tell you what went wrong
<liw> so it's mostly long, not really difficult as such, but since there's a lot of it, it is daunting, and every time I get to read one, I get a little headache
<liw> I've been meaning to fix this since 2005, but the headache has never been big enough
<liw> "PASS" means the test succeeded, "FAIL" that it failed, and "ERROR" that some program that piuparts needed to run did not work
<liw> ok, question time again
<Amaranth> <lucash> QUESTION: what do you expect from piuparts in the future?
<liw> lucash, I expect it to be re-thought from the scratch; it's been three years, and we've gained a lot of experience in how it works well and how it does not work well, and also the surrounding world has changed
<liw> for example, real virtualization is now a viable option...
<liw> exactly how piuparts will change I don't yet know, that discussion needs to happen with the debian and ubuntu developer communities
<liw> which I hope to start after my vacation ;-)
<Amaranth> <afflux> QUESTION: does the chroot cache need to be upgraded manually?
<liw> afflux, yes
<liw> pbuilder obviously updates its own, and that's typically good enough for most people, so it's easiest to just use -p
<liw> for those of use who need piuparts to build its own chroot... rm -f pink.tar.gz; then run piuparts with -s again
<Amaranth> <Amaranth> QUESTION: Will piuparts make me breakfast? ;)
<Amaranth> (out of questions)
<liw> Amaranth, yes
<Amaranth> Awesome, tell it I want scrambled eggs and hashbrowns.
<liw> sorry, only the burnt porridge option is currently implemented
<Amaranth> Darn, always a catch. :/
<Amaranth> Anyhow, I think we're done with questions, you have anything else you want to say?
<liw> for those who want to play with piuparts, I could perhaps point out the -a option, which lets you test packages without having a .deb file
<liw> piuparts -a hello
<liw> that fetches the hello packag e(it's a real package) from the archive and tests that
<liw> other than that, I'm done
<liw> thank you all, lots of good, pertinent questions! thank you for your interest, and please use piuparts before your next upload :)
<Amaranth> Alright, thanks for running this session. I think I'll use piuparts now :)
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Reporting Bugs - Brian Murray
<Amaranth> We've still got a few minutes, just getting the topic setup
<Amaranth> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> Amaranth: I'm all set.
<Amaranth> Alright, whenever you're ready
<bdmurray> I'm here to talk to you today about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are various different ways you can do it.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> Perhaps you are wondering what exactly is a bug?
<bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
<bdmurray>  Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be as simple as spelling errors.
<bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
<bdmurray> Reported bugs are kept in Launchpad, the bug tracking system used by Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> Let's look at a sample bug report - http://launchpad.net/bugs/222278
<bdmurray> There are four things here that I want to point out.
<bdmurray> 1) The bug's title or summary is 'upgrade hangs in checkViewDepends()'
<bdmurray>  2) In the Affects table you'll see that this bug report affects 'update-manager (Ubuntu)' this is the package / application which with the bug is about.
<bdmurray> 3) Bug's have an "Bug description" which is filled out when you are reporting a bug.
<bdmurray> 4) And you'll notice there are four bug comments each containing an attachment with supporting information about the bug.
<bdmurray> Are there any questions about what a bug is or what a bug report looks like?
<Amaranth> I guess not.
<bdmurray> Okay, moving on then!
<bdmurray> So, how can bugs be reported to Launchpad?
<bdmurray> They can be reported via the web interface at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
<bdmurray> Here you start by  filling out the summary which becomes the bug's tile.
<bdmurray> After which you are asked for the package affected and for 'Futher information' which becomes the bug's description.
<bdmurray> The description should contain at a minimum the following information:
<bdmurray> 1) The release of Ubuntu that you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> This is important as there are multiple different versions of Ubuntu that are currently supported.
<bdmurray> 2) The version of the package you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> 3) What you expected to happen
<bdmurray> and ...
<bdmurray> 4) What happened instead
<bdmurray> Additionally, you also have the opportunity to add an attachment to your bug when you are reporting it via the web interface.
<bdmurray> Another way to report a bug is using apport an automated problem report application included with Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> The advantage to using apport is that it automatically collects information about the release of Ubuntu you are using and the version of the package / application that you are reporting the bug about.
<bdmurray> Let's say that you have encountered a bug with Firefox.
<bdmurray> You can use apport to report the bug by going to Firefox's "Help" menu and choosing "Report a Problem".
<bdmurray> Apport will start collecing information about your bug and then open a new browser window where you enter the bug's summary / title and then enter the bug's description.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug reported using the "Report a Problem" menu item is http://launchpad.net/bugs/223455
<Amaranth> Not just firefox, that's how you report bugs against firefox
<bdmurray> Right, lots of applications have the "Report a Problem" functionality integrated into them.
<bdmurray> Looking at the bug 223455 you'll notice that a lot of information has been gathered automatically including the release of Ubuntu, "DistroRelease", the package and version, and the kernel version among other things.
<bdmurray> All of these help to make your bug report more complete and potentially easier to fix!
<bdmurray> Apport also has a command line interface, called apport-cli, where you can report a bug about a specific package via 'apport-cli -f -p PACKAGE'.
<bdmurray> This is useful for applications without a GUI interface like irssi, mutt, and apache.
<bdmurray> Additionally, with apport-cli you can specify a process id number via 'apport-cli -f -P PID'.
<bdmurray> Using apport is the prefereed way to report bugs about Ubuntu as they contain detailed information about the application and your system.
<bdmurray> Further infromation about reporting bugs can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs .
<bdmurray> Are there any questions about how to report bugs to Launchpad or using apport?
<Amaranth> <bullgard4> QUESTION:  Launchpad Bugs requires me to name a project where the bug belongs to. This repels me often from reporting a bug as there is no list where I can select from the 'project' that you want to know. Where can I find such a list?
<bdmurray> A 'project' is a software project that uses Launchpad and Ubuntu is one of the 'projects' that use Launchpad.  Other examples of projects are jokosher, inkscape and bughelper.
<bdmurray> I think your question is actually about finding the name of the package to report the bug about.  Is that correct bullgard4?
<Amaranth> bdmurray: Yes
<bdmurray> Okay, not to dodge your question but I'm planning on covering that next actually.  Are there any other questions about the material covered so far?
<Amaranth> <mbt> QUESTION: Is there a non-Web interface way to report bugs to LP?
<bdmurray> Yes, it is possible to send e-mail to 'new@bugs.launchpad.net' to report a new bug.  However, your e-mail must be GPG signed.
<bdmurray> You can find additional information about using the e-mail interface at https://help.launchpad.net/BugTrackerEmailInterface .
<bdmurray> Earlier there was a question about identifying the right package to report your bug about.
<bdmurray> This is a critical part of making your bug report more likely to get fixed.
<bdmurray> If your bug does not have a package assigned it is much less likely to get looked at by anyone, let alone by the developer of the application you are having an issue with.
<bdmurray> Some helpful hints for fidnign the proper package are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<bdmurray> That wiki page contains the names of packages that may be hard to discover.
<bdmurray> For example, bugs about the kernel in Hardy Heron should be reported about the 'linux' package.
<bdmurray> Additionally there are instructions on how to find out the name of a running application.  Which you might need to do if the application doesn't have apport "Report a Problem" functionality.
<bdmurray> Are there any questions about identifying the package to file a bug about?
<bdmurray> < _stink_> QUESTION: Let's say I find a bug in a project that's small,  and I notify the dev directly. Should I still file the bug on  LP?
<bdmurray> If that package is one that is included with Ubuntu it should be reported to Launchpad.
<bdmurray> This will allow us to keep track of status of the bug "upstream" and incorporate the fix into Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> An important part of a bug's life cycle is it entering the Confirmed or Triaged status.
<bdmurray> When a bug is Confirmed it means that someone has been able to recreate the bug or believes sufficient information has been included in the bug report for a developer to start working on it.
<bdmurray> Any Launchpad user can confirm a bug report, but please don't confirm your own!  This defeats the purpose of the Confirmed status.
<bdmurray> What this means though is that you should include extremely detailed steps to recreate the bug in it's description.
<bdmurray> If they are detailed enough anyone using the same software should be able to confirm the bug report, not just a developer.
<bdmurray> It is far better to have too much detail than not enough.
<bdmurray> Some fairly simple things you can do to make your bug report easier for someone to confirm or triage are including a screenshot via Print Screen.
<bdmurray> Taking a digital picture of the bug if it is one that won't show up in a screenshot.
<bdmurray> It is even possible to take a "screencast", capture video of your desktop, using an application like istanbul.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug with a screencast is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libwnck/+bug/212425 .
<bdmurray> Having a screencast makes the steps to recreate the bug easy to see and can help overcome language barriers.
<bdmurray> One of the best ways to make your bug report more likely to be fixed is to follow the debugging procedures for the package or subsystem the bug is about!
<bdmurray> These have been written by bug triagers or the developer of the software and following them will help you create a more detailed bug report.
<bdmurray> You can find the list of debugging procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<bdmurray> Are there any questions about how to report a bug about Ubuntu and making a detailed and complete bug report?
<bdmurray>  < toobuntu> QUESTION: If the wrong package was initially assigned to the
<bdmurray>                   bug, and later the reporter realizes that it should be
<bdmurray>                   changed or the dev marks it as invalid, does a new bug need
<bdmurray> to be filed or can the O.P. change the package name?
<bdmurray> Sorry about that!  That's a good question.
<bdmurray> Yes, it is possible for the original reporter to change the package name for a bug report.
<bdmurray> Let's look at bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/223772
<bdmurray> You can see right now that it affects "Ubuntu" this is the distribution in general.
<bdmurray> The package can be changed by clicking on one of the downward arrow type things.
<bdmurray> A new part of the page will be revealed where you can see the package name is blank.  Here you can add the right package name.
<bdmurray> < Leviath> QUESTION: When to report a bug to the developers of the  software and when Launchpad?
<bdmurray> Ubuntu contains a lot of software that isn't developed by the distribution so this is a very relevant question.
<bdmurray> Let's consider inkscape for example.  The package we ship can be slightly different from the upstream version.
<bdmurray> So, if you have the bug with Ubuntu's version of inkscape the bug should be reported to Launchpad about the inkscape package in Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> Then you could "forward" the bug to the inkscape upstream project.
<bdmurray> Ideally, this should be done after confirming that the bug exists in the upstream version of inkscape.
<bdmurray> Otherwise we are causing unnecessary work for the upstream developers.
<bdmurray> I'm afraid that's all I have time for.  However, if you have any questions about this class or reporting bugs about Ubuntu you can find myself and the rest of the bugsquad in #ubuntu-bugs.  Thanks for coming!
<pedro_> it seems we are ready now
* ompaul changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | "Ubuntu Bugsquad + Triaging Bugs"
<pedro_> good day freedom lovers!
<iulian> Hello everyone!
<pedro_> My name is Pedro Villavicencio and I'm going to introduce you to the Bug triaging
<pedro_> i'm here with the bugsquad member Iulian, he's going to deal with the questions of you at the ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pedro_> so feel free to ask whenever you want to
<pedro_> the good Brian Murray already talked to you about ways to filing bugs in Ubuntu
<pedro_> great session so we already know how to do some things on launchpad
<pedro_> once you filed your bug in launchpad, someone needs to take care of it
<pedro_> and that team on Ubuntu is called the "Ubuntu BugSquad"
<pedro_> the Ubuntu Bugsquad is the first point of contact for the bugs filed about Ubuntu
<pedro_> we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by developers
<pedro_> and we do this with a process called "Triage", will talk to you about it in a few
<pedro_> Working with the Bug Squad it's an excellent way to start helping out and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
<pedro_> You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team in fact it is a great way to return something to our lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
<pedro_> We have a team on LP https://edge.launchpad.net/~bugsquad it's an open team, so everybody can join us
<pedro_> so please feel free to do it if you're willing to help
<pedro_> we also have a mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad and a couple of IRC Channels where bugs are discussed #ubuntu-bugs and announced #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<pedro_> And if you later on have questions about an specific project you can look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts to see to who you can ask about it.
<pedro_> and we hope to see your name there in the short term :-)
<pedro_> Ok so Bug Triage
<pedro_> Triaging bugs consists of a few things
<pedro_> - Responding to new bugs as they are filed
<pedro_> - Ensuring that new bugs have all the necessary information, you already learned how to submit good quality bug reports in previous session
<pedro_> - Assigning bugs to the proper package: this was also one of the topics that Brian talked to you about it
<pedro_> we currently have around 3000 bugs without a package
<pedro_> you can take a look to a brief list here http://tinyurl.com/32l4gd
<pedro_> it's a big quantity of bugs, and with your help we can reduce that :-)
<pedro_> - Confirming bugs reports by testing them
<pedro_> - Setting the right priority and status
<pedro_> - Searching for duplicates and marking them as such
<pedro_> - Sending bugs to their upstream authors when needed
<iulian> Ok, it seems that pedro_ is having some problems, don't know. Will try to replace him.
<iulian> Let's see the how can we change the status of a bug and what means.
<pedro_> sorry guys, my network connection went down
<pedro_> where are we?
<iulian> Cool, nice to have you back.
<ompaul> <CaioAlonso> QUESTION: what to do when the bug cant be reproduced but it still happens on the persons machine?
<pedro_> CaioAlonso: depending on where you're having the issue, there's detailed instructions on how to debug your problem
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<pedro_> ok let's make this a bit fast
<pedro_> we currently have 9 status on launchpad
<pedro_> New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
<pedro_> The first ones are kinda clear, New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed
<pedro_> The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information for example a debugging backtrace of a crash or steps in order to trigger the bug.
<pedro_> A Confirmed is almost self explanatory, someone else than the reporter have the same bug
<pedro_> and please do not confirm your own reports
<pedro_> The Triaged status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fix the issue
<pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as "In Progress", because there's somebody working on it
<pedro_> and please use that status only for that task
<pedro_> If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch or to another repository the bug needs to be marked as Fix Committed and when that fix get released the status of the bug is changed to Fix Released
<pedro_> released meaning available on our Ubuntu official repositories
<pedro_> if you want to read a bit more you can have a look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
<iulian> <mbt> QUESTION: You said not to mark one's own bugs as "Confirmed." However, if there is confirmation in the bug comments, or the Confirmed status is required as part of submission for sponsorship, would those qualify as valid exemptions?
<pedro_> yes, if somebody confirmed the bug on the comments but forgot to change the status, it's ok to change it yourself
<pedro_> and one important issue on this too, when you change a status , please indicate on a comment why you change it
<pedro_> a little comment with "I can confirm this" or "Setting as incomplete because why are waiting for more information"
<pedro_> are ok
<pedro_> but if you want to do things in a good quality
<pedro_> you might want to use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<pedro_> those are the stock responses that everybody on the bugsquad use daily
<iulian> <ligemeget> QUESTION: How do we deal with bug reports containing error messages in another language than English?
<pedro_> well that depends, if somebody filed a bug in spanish and you talk spanish, translate the report
<pedro_> otherwise if you have time you can ask for more info or reject the bug waiting for a new one in English
<pedro_> more info meaning "Please translate this in English"
<pedro_> s/in/into
<pedro_> sadly we have to deal with hundreds of reports daily and we don't have enough resources to translate all of them
<pedro_> ok let's grab another iulian
<iulian> <ligemeget> QUESTION: What's the difference between Confirmed and Triaged?
<pedro_> the Confirmed status in general means that other person than the reporter is having the issue so they confirm the bug
<pedro_> if that bug report have enough information the status is changed to Triaged by an Ubuntu Bug Control member
<pedro_> enough information for a developer to start working on fixing the issue
<pedro_> Ok so Bug Importance
<pedro_> As soon as you have done enough good triage work, you can apply to the ubuntu-bugcontrol team which is the one with more rights over the reports, so basically you can change the importance of the bugs and set the Won't Fix status, the requirements for join the team are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<pedro_> Ok so we have 6 importances, Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical. During your first weeks on the BugSquad you're probably not going to use the importances, so i'm going to describe you just some of them and you can read more about them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
<pedro_> The Undecided one is the default for the new bugs and it means that there's no sufficient information to determine the importance.
<pedro_> A Wishlist is a request to add a new feature to the programs available on Ubuntu, but if it's too complex to be implemented it should rather be written as a feature specification, for instructions on how to do this you can look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureSpecifications and also if you have some ideas that you'd like to see included on Ubuntu you can use the Ubuntu Brainstorm http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<pedro_> and a Low importance bug is the one that affect functionality on the software for example an usability problem or just a typo.
<pedro_> If you are interested you can adopt a package and start triaging bugs on it, there's a loooong list of Universe packages needing love
<pedro_> if you're interested on GNOME I've collected a list of GNOME related packages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/GNOME/UniverseList
<pedro_> for example if you use Banshee, you can work on it and help the project and Ubuntu
<pedro_> Does everybody knows about 5-a-day?
<pedro_> 5-A-Day means everybody will do 5 (or more) bugs a day every day, you can look for 5-a-day stats at http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
<pedro_>  and for example if you want to work with your LoCo team on a specific task or do a bug jam session you can use 5-a-day too to show other people your team progress
<pedro_> if you look to almost the bottom of the page you'll see what i'm talking about, And yes the kubuntu-de guys are just awesome, so come on people let's follow them :-)
<pedro_> more information about it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
<pedro_> At the Bugsquad we also organize Bug Days also known as Hug Days, well the idea of a hug day is to work together with the bugsquad and project maintainers on a specific task, weekly we organize two hug days, one the Tuesday and another one the Thursday
<pedro_> first one are more general hug days, focused for example of the bugs without a package and the Thursday ones are focused on desktop related task like compiz, firefox and GNOME applications
<pedro_> If you want to join us at Hug Days just come to #ubuntu-bugs the days I've mentioned and join the fun, of course everyday is a perfect day for triaging and help your lovely linux distribution
<pedro_> more information about them available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
<pedro_> ok last questions!
<iulian> <toobuntu> QUESTION: Is there a way to add another Ubuntu package to a bug report?  E.g. when a dev marks as invalid for the first package the bug was assigned to, can the reporter add another Ubuntu package (as opposed to an upstream project) or must a new bug be filed?
<pedro_> toobuntu: you can create another task for it
<pedro_> but sometimes it's better to just re assigning it
<pedro_> that depends, really, so you can always ask on #ubuntu-bugs to our lovely and cool bugsquad
<pedro_> another?
<iulian> <rubicon_> QUESTIONS: bug squad memebers earn 'karma' for their efforts. what is it good for? are you working solely for community ideals or have any profit? just interesting :)
<pedro_> haha funny one
<pedro_> rubicon_: well if you have more karma on bug management it means that you know what you're doing
<pedro_> so for example if there's another person that doesn't know something
<pedro_> and just set the status to "Incomplete"
<pedro_> but the right status is "In Progress"
<pedro_> if the person with more karma set the status it means that he really knows what's he's doing and his oppinion needs to be respected
<pedro_> but besides that
<pedro_> karma means nothing else
<pedro_> you cannot change it for a t-shirt
<pedro_> but that'd be really nice
<pedro_> ;-)
<pedro_> ok so we're running out of time
<pedro_> thanks you all for the patience and sorry for leaving during the session
<pedro_> i'll kill my isp provider don't worry
<pedro_> thanks you all!!
<iulian> Thank you all and apologies for the interruption.
 * pedro_ hugs iulian
<pedro_> hope to see you all on #ubuntu-bugs pretty soon ;-)
<pedro_> thanks!
 * iulian hugs pedro_  back and ALL
<ompaul> what is next?
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Building Upstream Kernels - Leann Ogasawara
<ogasawara_> ok, lets get started
<ogasawara_> Hi Everyone!  Welcome to the session on building an upstream kernel.
<ogasawara_> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I work for Canonical as a member of the Ubuntu QA Team.
<ogasawara_> Lets begin with a little background information on why you'd even want to build the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara_> At the beginning of every development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team rebases the Ubuntu kernel with the upstream vanilla kernel.
<ogasawara_> The upstream vanilla kernel is available at http://www.kernel.org and is the kernel maintained by Linus Torvalds.
<ogasawara_> At a certain point in the development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team will cease rebasing with the upstream kernel and focus on stabilizing the Ubuntu kernel code base.
<ogasawara_> During this whole development phase, many Ubuntu users are testing and reporting bugs against the actively developed Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> Unfortunately, it is sometimes the case that a bug will exist not only in the Ubuntu kernel code base, but will also exist in the upstream vanilla kernel as well.
<ogasawara_> It may also be the case that the bug is already fixed upstream and the fix should be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> Knowing how to build an upstream kernel helps to verify either of these scenarios.
<ogasawara_> So lets walk through the steps to build the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara_> The actual build process will likely take longer than we time we have allotted here for this session so I'll leave the actual execution of the steps for you to do on your own time.
<ogasawara_> Also, please note that the steps we'll be going through is just one way you can go about building the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara_> Ok, first you need to install some tools which will help with the process:
<ogasawara_> sudo apt-get install git-core kernel-package fakeroot
<ogasawara_> Next we need to get the upstream kernel source.
<ogasawara_> There are a few different ways to get the upstream kernel source.
<ogasawara_> As I had mentioned previously, you could grab the tarball available at http://kernel.org
<ogasawara_> Or another option is cloning the kernel git tree - http://git.kernel.org
<ogasawara_> We'll clone the git tree in this example:
<ogasawara_> git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git
<ogasawara_> Now we need to configure the kernel.
<ogasawara_> Ubuntu has already provided us with a kernel config file that we can use.
<ogasawara_> Lets just copy that file into the git tree we cloned:
<ogasawara_> cd linux-2.6; cp /boot/config-`uname -r` .config
<ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel config file might need some slight updates so run the following and answer any questions that you get prompted for:
<ogasawara_> make oldconfig
<ogasawara_> Now lets start building the kernel (this will create linux-image and linux-header .deb files):
<ogasawara_> fakeroot make-kpkg --initrd --append-to-version=-custom kernel_image kernel_headers
<ogasawara_> This will take a while.  After this finishes we're ready to install:
<ogasawara_> cd ..; sudo dpkg -i linux-image-2.6.25-custom_2.6.25-custom-10.00.Custom_i386.deb linux-headers-2.6.25-custom_2.6.25-custom-10.00.Custom_i386.deb
<ogasawara_> Obviously the exact names of the linux-image and linux-header files will vary depending which kernel version you are building.
<ogasawara_> Now all you have to do is reboot and choose the new kernel you just built.
<ogasawara_> QUESTION:  Upstream kernels can be built far faster with multi-core machines.  Does make-kpkg offer a way to do a parallel build of a kernel like the lower-level "make -j 5" would (for say, a quad-core)?
<ogasawara_> mbt:  yes, use CONCURRENCY_LEVEL=N
<ogasawara_> CaioAlonso> QUESTION: getting the kernel with git will give you the latest revision (presumably unstable) or the latest stable version?
<ogasawara_> CaioAlonso: pulling the kernel with git will get you the latest revision, not necessarily the latest stable version
<ogasawara_> ok, moving on (I'll try to field more questions along the way)
<ogasawara_> Once you have booted into the kernel, if the bug you're experiencing still exists, that means the bug also exists in the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara_> The upstream kernel has its own bug tracking system at http://bugzilla.kernel.org
<ogasawara_> It's helpful to also report your bug to the upstream bugzilla.
<ogasawara_> It is often the case that once a bug is escalated upstream there is a quick resolution through the help and support of the mainline kernel community.
<ogasawara_> Bug reports in Launchpad can also be set up to monitor the upstream bugzilla report.
<ogasawara_> It's preferred to have the fix go into the upstream kernel first and then be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> This helps ensure the fix is available to the entire kernel community.
<ogasawara_> It's also easier on the Ubuntu kernel team not having to maintain out of tree patches.
<ogasawara_> When opening an upstream kernel bugzilla report, there are a few helpful hints to provide the upstream kernel developers with as much information about your bug.
<ogasawara_> 1. Verify your bug does not already exist in the upstream bugzilla bugtracking system.
<ogasawara_> 2. Include kernel version
<ogasawara_> 3. Include your dmesg output
<ogasawara_> 4. Include 'sudo lspci -vvnn' output
<ogasawara_> 5. Most importantly, if this is a regression, the best information you can provide the kernel developers is the information from doing a git bisect. This will hopefully narrow down the exact patch that is causing the regression. http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
<ogasawara_> 6. If you've also opened a Launchpad bug report about the bug, you can set up your Launchpad bug report to monitor the upstream bugzilla
<ogasawara_> I've documented the entire upstream kernel build process that we just went though at:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GitKernelBuild
<ogasawara_> That wiki also covers how to file the upstream bug report and also how to link that upstream bug report to the Launchpad bug report.
<ogasawara_> Now that you know how to build the upstream vanilla kernel, some of you may be wondering how to build the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> You can build the Ubuntu kernel using the same exact steps we went through above.
<ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel git trees can be found at:
<ogasawara_> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<ogasawara_> Just like we cloned the upstream kernel git tree, you can do the same for the Ubuntu kernel:
<ogasawara_> git clone git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid.git
<ogasawara_> That will clone the upcoming Intrepid Ibex 8.10 kernel that is currently under development.
<ogasawara_> However, the Intrepid kernel is still under going rapid changes so there are no guarantees that it will build cleanly just yet.
<ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel git trees for previous kernel release for say Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, and Hardy are also still available at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel source however provides some scripts to hopefully make the above build process we walked through even easier.
<ogasawara_> Refer to the following wiki under the "Performing builds" section for more information.
<ogasawara_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelMaintenance
<ogasawara_> There is also information there on how to build some of the other kernel related packages such as linux-ubuntu-modules.
<ogasawara_> I'll let you go through the steps outlined there on your own time.  It should be fairly self explanatory.
<ogasawara_> <Flyser> Question: How can I download a stable ubuntu-kernel patchset to patch and build it on my own
<ogasawara_> Flyser: I'm not aware of the kernel team releasing an ubuntu-specific patch set specifically
<ogasawara_> Flyser: sorry that doesn't really help you much
<ogasawara_> Lets get back to why again we're building the upstream and Ubuntu kernels
<ogasawara_> We already covered the case where you've confirmed the bug exists upstream as well as in the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> So what if it's the case that you discover your bug is resolved in the upstream kernel but not in the Ubuntu kernel?
<ogasawara_> Many times you may know the exact patch which has been committed upstream and needs to be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> The most useful information you can provide the Ubuntu kernel team will be the upstream git commit id and description.
<ogasawara_> The upstream git commit id and description can be found using the following command from within the upstream git kernel tree:
<ogasawara_> git log [file|commit id]
<ogasawara_> For example:
<ogasawara_> ogasawara@emiko:~/linux-2.6$ git log drivers/media/video/cx88/cx88-cards.c
<ogasawara_> commit 6b92b3bd7ac91b7e255541f4be9bfd55b12dae41
<ogasawara_> Author: Steven Toth <stoth@hauppauge.com>
<ogasawara_> Date:   Sat Apr 5 16:45:57 2008 -0300
<ogasawara_>     V4L/DVB (7642): cx88: enable radio GPIO correctly
<ogasawara_>     
<ogasawara_>     cx88: enable radio GPIO correctly.
<ogasawara_>     
<ogasawara_>     Signed-off-by: Steven Toth <stoth@hauppauge.com>
<ogasawara_>     Signed-off-by: Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab@infradead.org>
<ogasawara_> You can also add the -p flag to view the actual patch associated with that commit:
<ogasawara_> git log -p drivers/media/video/cx88/cx88-cards.c
<ogasawara_> or
<ogasawara_> git log -p 6b92b3bd7ac91b7e255541f4be9bfd55b12dae41
<ogasawara_> They should both provide you with the same information.
<ogasawara_> Along with proving the upstream git commit id and description, it would be great if you could also confirm the patch does indeed resolve the issue when applied to the Ubuntu kernel source.
<ogasawara_> You can save the patch output from running the 'git log -p' command and apply it to the Ubuntu kernel source.
<ogasawara_> For those unfamiliar on how to patch the kernel source refer to the patch man page.
<ogasawara_> Typically upstream kernel patches can be applied by running the following from the top level directory of the Ubuntu kernel source:
<ogasawara_> patch -p1 < [patch.file]
<ogasawara_> Then just build the kernel like we walked through above and then test if your bug is fixed.
<ogasawara_> You can then open a Launchpad bug report against the "linux" source package which is the source package name for the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara_> Make the Title informative but you may also want to preface it with something like [Resolved Upstream].
<ogasawara_> In the bug report include a description of the bug you are experiencing.
<ogasawara_> Then include the upstream git commit id and description.
<ogasawara_> Also if you were able to, be sure to comment that you've applied the upstream patch the Ubuntu kernel and can verify it does resolve the issue you are seeing.
<ogasawara_> If you feel the bug is urgent (and please be subjective about this) feel free to then ping me in #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu-kernel and I'll try to help get your bug on the radar of the kernel team.
<ogasawara_> Otherwise, I regularly go through new kernel bug reports and will likely see it then.
<ogasawara_> Now what happens if you know the issue is resolved in the upstream kernel and not in the Ubuntu kernel but you don't know the exact patch which resolved it.
<ogasawara_> How do you go about finding the patch?
<ogasawara_> you could leverage git bisect to help you narrow down the exact patch.  Refer to:
<ogasawara_> http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
<ogasawara_> The only tricky thing is that you will need to reverse the meanings of "good" and "bad" when doing the bisect.
<ogasawara_> This is because git bisect assumes that you are searching for the patch that causes the bug not the one that fixes it.
<ogasawara_> <pwnguin> QUESTION: I see the word SAUCE a lot in ubuntu changelogs; I assume it means a patch not applied upstream. is it anyone's duty to see that it makes it upstream?
<ogasawara_> pwnguin: correct, SAUCE patches are not yet pushed upstream
<ogasawara_> pwnguin: however, the kernel team actively submits patches back upstream
<ogasawara_> I'd also like to take a moment here to quickly discuss reporting Ubuntu kernel bugs in Launchpad.
<ogasawara_> As you can imagine, the Ubuntu kernel receives a rather high volume of bug reports.
<ogasawara_> To help streamline the bug reporting process and make the kernel team's life a little easier there are a few things bug reporters can do to help improve reporting bugs:
<ogasawara_> 1) Ubuntu kernel bug reports should be filed against the "linux" package.  Beginning with Hardy Heron 8.04 the Ubuntu kernel source naming convention changed from linux-source-2.6.xx to just linux.
<ogasawara_> 2) Make bug report Titles descriptive - not just "My sound doesn't work" or "Suspend is Broken".
<ogasawara_> 3) Make sure bug reports target one specific issue against a specific set of hardware.  Many times bugs are specific to the hardware used so even though the symptom may be the same, for ex. failure to Suspend, it really should be separate bug reports.  Remember we can easily mark bugs as duplicates later on if necessary.
<ogasawara_> 4) As a general rule of thumb, kernel bug reports should at a minimum include the following:
<ogasawara_>  * cat /proc/version_signature > version.log
<ogasawara_>  * dmesg > dmesg.log
<ogasawara_>  * sudo lspci -vvnn > lspci-vvnn.log
<ogasawara_> For more information regarding the kernel team bug policy, refer to:
<ogasawara_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
<ogasawara_> That's pretty much all that I wanted to cover here today.
<ogasawara_> Are there any other questions people have?
<ogasawara_> <[Ramy]> Question: Free software is fun, i want to help, i want your advice about how can i contribute and learn the technology [i'm a computer engineer] while that is not consuming allot of time ?
<ogasawara_> so not entirely related to our topic but . . .
<ogasawara_> Ramy:  if there is a specific area you'd like to become involved in there are usually wikis/mailing lists you can join begin learning about the community you'd want to become involved in
<ogasawara_> Ramy:  they usually can give you specific advice on how to jump in
<ogasawara_> Ramy:  specifically for the kernel - http://kernelnewbies.org/ is a good place to start
<ogasawara_> <pwnguin> QUESTION: I just completed a git clone from kernel.org, and find that a patch marked SAUCE for hardy is not in upstream, and given my interaction with upstream, seems unlikely that they'd accept the patch as is. Does ubuntu carry patches forward, or will i need to follow up on intrepid in the case that an acceptable fix upstream isn't found quickly?
<ogasawara_> pwnguin: patches that do not make it upstream will usually be carried forward from release to release
<ogasawara_> <Flyser> QUESTION: (not really on topic but ...) how to get startet with kernel development?
<ogasawara_> Flyser: I'd look at the kernel newbies link I posted above
<ogasawara_> mnemo> QUESTION: there is many bugs so understanding which ones to focus on is important... how does the ubuntu kernel team figure out what soundcards/networkcards/graphicscards etc work or not work?
<ogasawara_> mnemo: many of the developers on the kernel team have access to hardware they can test against, but that is hardly a good coverage of all hardware
<ogasawara_> mnemo: that's where the help of the ubuntu community is greatly appreciated - testing and reporting bugs
<ogasawara_> <maco> QUESTION: how do you determine if a hardware problem is actually a kernel issue and not a failure in another layer?
<ogasawara_> maco:  the easiest way to test if it's actually a kernel issue is to try to eliminate the upper layers
<ogasawara_> maco:  for example, a bug may either be in usplash or the kernel - try booting with the 'quiet' and 'splash' options removed
<ogasawara_> <mnemo> QUESTION: Suppose two soundcards dont work, how do you decide which one to work on? Is there a stats page somewhere that says 10k people have card1 and 20k people have card2 etc... I know there is this "hardware testing" program which submits info somewhere but i'm not sure where it ends up exactly?
<ogasawara_> mnemo: good question - usually a few things are taken into consideration here. . .
<ogasawara_> mnemo:  I don't believe there is an official stats page documenting #people who have card1 vs. card2.  However, we can use launchpad to help provide some statistics.
<ogasawara_> mnemo:  we can take a look at the # of duplicates say bug report about card1 has vs card2
<ogasawara_> mnemo: we can also take a look at the # of subscribers to each bug report (theoretically the more subscribers the more people are interested in the bug)
<ogasawara_> mnemo: and it also may depend if one of our kernel devs has access too one of the cards or not to test
<ogasawara_> <maco> QUESTION: if its not something that shows up during boot, if it's something during normal usage, what do you eliminate? hal?  And what do you do to test once the upper layers are gone?
<ogasawara_> maco:  that will typically depend on the symptoms you are seeing
<ogasawara_> maco:  looking at the logs will hopefully provide any error messages or clues
<ogasawara_> <TankEnMate> QUESTION: is there an ubuntu git repository of the kernel?
<ogasawara_> TankEnMate: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<ogasawara_> ok, we're just about out of time.  anything else?
<ogasawara_> Ok, thanks everyone.  Enjoy the rest of the week!
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Kubuntu Development - Richard Johnson
<nixternal> OK, if you are here for the Kubuntu talk, can I get a big 'K' in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?!?!
<nixternal> alrighty, welcome to the train wreck called 'Kubuntu Development by Richard Johnson'
<nixternal> a little introduction shall we...
<nixternal> Hey everyone, my name is Richard Johnson and I am a Kubuntu developer.
<nixternal> I am here to talk to you all about Kubuntu development.
<nixternal> Here is a brief summary of what I am about to cover:
<nixternal>  * A little about myself
<nixternal>  * A little about Kubuntu
<nixternal>  * A breakdown of the various development roles in the Kubuntu community
<nixternal> I ask that everyone place their trays in the upright position, ensure your seatbelts are fastened, and hold on!
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> === About Me ===
<nixternal>  * Free software developer and advocate since 1994
<nixternal>  * Kubuntu developer and documentation writer since 2005
<nixternal>  * KDE developer and documentation writer since 2005, user since 1996
<nixternal>  * Debian Maintainer for a couple of packages, KDE based of course
<nixternal>  * Co-Author of the Official Ubuntu Book (Edubuntu chapter - huh?)
<nixternal>  * Go by nixternal on every communication protocol imaginable
<nixternal>  * Email me at nixternal@kubuntu.org
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> What is this Kubuntu thing everyone in the world should be using?
<nixternal> === About Kubuntu ===
<nixternal>  * Official project of the Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution
<nixternal>  * We use the same exact base system as Ubuntu, we just use KDE instead
<nixternal>  * It is pronounced koo-BOON-too
<nixternal>  * First released in 2005 with the Hoary Hedgehog (5.04) version
<nixternal>  * http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/591 - The post that started it all, by some guy named Jonathan Riddell
<nixternal> Riddell: say hello to everyone!
<nixternal> he must be drinking his Irn Bru :)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Where Kubuntu is today ===
<nixternal>  * One of the top KDE based GNU/Linux distributions available
<nixternal>  * Still a small, yet tight-knit community of highly dedicated and experienced developers
<nixternal>  * Both a KDE 3 and a KDE 4 Remix version available
<nixternal>  * In numerous large scaled environments (Canary Islands, French Parliament, and others)
<nixternal>  * A tad bit better than yesterday, only to be made better with YOUR help
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Like jono said earlier in his community talk, IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU! THE COMMUNITY!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> = Development Roles =
<nixternal> There are many roles available for you to get involved in, no matter your experience level we have a job for you!
<nixternal> I will break down the jobs or roles that I feel are in order starting with the easiest all the way to the hardest.
<nixternal> Feel free to communicate with developers by utilizing our mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel (Subscription based - low traffic).
<nixternal> Note that this list is NOT for user support, for support please see the list information provided in the upcoming section on user support.
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> The roles I will break down briefly cover: Advocacy, Support, Bug Triage, Documentation, Packaging, and Coding
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Advocacy ===
<nixternal> Advocacy is nothing more than a fancier, and better sounding word for marketing.
<nixternal> I am willing to bet a couple of you just went, "How in the heck is advocating Kubuntu related to development?"
<nixternal> Yes, advocacy helps in the development of Kubuntu, and by you advocating, you are therefore helping to develop Kubuntu.
<nixternal> This gets Kubuntu in the hands of other people who will use the system and typically report back any issues or compliments to the developers.
<nixternal> How can you advocate?
<nixternal>  * Get with one of your LoCo teams (Nick Ali will hold a LoCo Teams talk at 19:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008 during this OpenWeek)
<nixternal>  * Get with one of your local Linux Users Groups (LUG)
<nixternal>  * Talk about it face-to-face with friends, family, colleagues, and strangers in the dark (careful using Kubuntu as a pickup line, doesn't get you to far!)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> If you don't believe me about using Kubuntu as a pick-up line, eddieftw can tell you all about it, he has been smacked numerous times for trying!
<nixternal> .....
 * Riddell finds that international freedom fighter works well 
<nixternal> I will have to remember that!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === User Support ===
<nixternal> How can user support be considered a development role?
<nixternal>  * You develop a sense of pride when helping others
<nixternal>  * You develop respect not only for the OS, but also for the users, the developers, and yourself
<nixternal>  * You develop a repoir within the Kubuntu community
<nixternal>  * You help users, see things that could be made better by developers, and report that to the developers
<nixternal> Having someone like YOU helping out the Kubuntu users helps out the development community tremendously.
<nixternal> You free up the main developers time a bit and you also are provided the ability to take what you learn from common issues and communicate that effectively, allowing developers to make a better Kubuntu.
<nixternal> Places you can provide user support:
<nixternal>  * IRC - #kubuntu on Freenode (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat)
<nixternal>  * Ubuntu Forums - http://ubuntuforums.org
<nixternal>  * Kubuntu Forums - http://www.kubuntuforums.net/
<nixternal>  * Mailing List - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-users (Subscription based - medium traffic)
<nixternal>  * At your local LUG or LoCo events
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Everyone needs support and community love, and these are 2 very important areas in development
<nixternal> Even this guy needs support and community love! -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonobacon/2438454269/
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> OK, we have seen some bug lovin' today, and guess what?!?! I am going to talk some more about it :)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Bug Triage ===
<nixternal> Bug triage is a huge part of the development process and comes in easy and difficult tasks.
<nixternal> For the easy, simply going through bug reports and testing to see if you can reproduce the issue and then confirming the bug is a big part on ensuring it gets fixed.
<nixternal> When bugs sit in the New or Incomplete status, their chances of getting looked at in depth are minimal compared to a report that has been Confirmed.
<nixternal> For the difficult part, simply fix the bug by patching the software in question.
<nixternal> For more information on bug triage stay tuned to more talks during this OpenWeek, such talks include:
<nixternal>  * Reporting Bugs by Brian Murray, which happened just a couple of hours ago (17:00 UTC on Monday, April 28, 2008) and will also be held again at 17:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008
<nixternal>  * Ubuntu Bugsquad + Triaging Bugs by Pedro Villavicencio which happened just prior to this talk (18:00 UTC on Monday, April 28, 2008) and will also be held again at 18:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008
<nixternal>  * Bughelper - Making Bug Work Easier by Markus Korn at 15:00 UTC on Friday, May 2, 2008
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> WAKE UP!!!
<nixternal> still have a bit more to cover, then you can bombard me^Wus with questions
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> AHHH! Here comes my favorite thing in the whole world....are you ready for the truth?
<nixternal> YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Documentation ===
<nixternal> \o/ YAY \o/
<nixternal> Documentation is a very large task in the free software world and it is no different here in Kubuntu.
<nixternal> As it stands, there are about 3 or 4 of us who work on the Kubuntu documentation, with myself and Jonathan Jesse typically available most of the time.
<nixternal> With our future with KDE 4, ALL of our documentation needs to be rewritten in order to suite it. Currently all of our documentation is KDE 3 based.
<nixternal> We house our documentation in Bazaar which a revision control system. Right now our goal will be with Intrepid documentation.
<nixternal> For further information on documentation please see either of the following:
<nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project by me at 21:00 UTC this Friday, May 2, 2008
<nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project wiki - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam
<nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc (Subscription based - low traffic)
<nixternal>  * IRC - #ubuntu-doc on Freenode (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat)
<nixternal>  * Asks questions at the end of this talk, message me at a later time on IRC, or email me at nixternal@kubuntu.org with your questions
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Now comes the really fun stuff! I ask that you know make sure that your parachutes are ready to go!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install the_hard_stuff
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Actually, that was a lie, the last 2 topics are pretty easy to learn, and a total blast....
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> === Packaging ===
<nixternal> What exactly is packaging?
<nixternal> I will tell you what it isn't...It isn't that sharp plastiK stuff you try to cut away to get at your new geeky toy!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> If you used Adept, Synaptic, apt-get, or aptitude to install a piece of our free software, then what you have done is downloaded a package which was extracted into the proper locations within your system, ensuring at the same time that any of that applications dependencies were also installed.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> uncross your eyes, and lets rock!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> What happens is you have a select group of developers who spend their PERSONAL TIME creating, editing, and maintaining Debian based packages so you can download and install them.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> The reason behind PERSONAL TIME being in caps wasn't to yell at you...it was to let everyone know that will read this here and in the log files, to breathe before tearing into community members because your favorite package might be broken...bare with us, and we shall fix it for ya!
<nixternal> of course, you could always fix it too, especially seeing as this is the packaging section :)
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> What should you know if you are thinking about packaging? Requirements include:
<nixternal>  * Familiarity with the command line
<nixternal>  * Ability to download, extract, configure, build, and install a tarball (file.tar.gz and such)
<nixternal>  * Familiarity with Debian based packaging scripts and utilities (pbuilder, dh_make, dh_install, and more)
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ls, cd, mv, mkdir, rm, man, info, dget, wget, and a few more....easy stuff!
<nixternal> wget http://foo.com/bar.tar.gz && tar -xf bar.tar.gz
<nixternal> forgot about tar in my first list of cli commands, oops
<nixternal> dh_make, debdiff, lintian, pbuilder, dh_install, debuild, dput, and more....
<nixternal> still not overly difficult!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> More information on packaging can be located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU. Also don't forget to catch the packaging related talks during this OpenWeek, such as:
<nixternal>  * QA: Using piuparts to test your packages by Lars Wirzenius which was earlier today at 16:00 UTC. Don't worry if you missed it, the logs will be available shortly for each session of this OpenWeek
<nixternal>  * Packaging 101 - Session 1 by Daniel Holbach at 15:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
<nixternal>  * Packaging 101 - Session 2 by Daniel Holbach at 16:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
<nixternal>  * Merging Packages 101 by Nicolas ValcÃ¡rcel at 18:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
<nixternal>  * Python Packaging by Emilio Pozuelo Monfort at 21:00 UTC on Thursday, May 1, 2008
<nixternal>  * And if you are already a packager, check out Running a Packaging Jam by Rick Harding at 19:00 UTC on Friday, May 2, 2008
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> OK hackers! Leave the Gibson alone and pay attention now!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Coding ===
<nixternal> ahhhh ya! the fun stuff! the stuff that will make your dating life totally disappear!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> Are you an elite coding ninja?
<nixternal> A code monkey?
<nixternal> A CS student just learning how to code?
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> don't take code monkey in the negative way!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> Well we can make some room for you! What type of coding jobs are available at this time are still up in the air until after the Ubuntu Developer's Summit next month.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> Once the projects are hammered out, I am fairly certain there will be coding projects available for various types of coders.
<nixternal> C++ and Python are our 2 main languages here at Kubuntu and if you have any experience we should have something for you.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> s/should/WILL! as soon as UDS hits us in a few weeks :)
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> Do you have a project in mind?
<nixternal> If so, then come to one of our regularly scheduled developer meetings and place your ideas on the agenda for that meeting.
<nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings  -- Keep an eye on this page or http://fridge.ubuntu.com to see when our next meeting will be
<nixternal> Who knows, maybe you can twist some arms to get your idea developed and included in the next release, and future releases, of Kubuntu.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> = Conclusion =
<nixternal> YES! I KNOW YOU ALL JUST SAID "THANK GOD IT IS FINALLY OVER!!!!"
<nixternal> I would like to thank each and every one of you for attending this meeting.
<nixternal> I hope it wasn't to boring for you and that you are now ready to explode with questions, comments, and ideas.
<nixternal> I ask that you provide your question, comments, or ideas in accordance to the rules set forth in the discussion channel for the OpenWeek talks.
<nixternal> Thanks again and if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask, and comments and ideas can be fired my way as well.
<nixternal> COMMUNITY!
<nixternal> COMMUNITY!
<nixternal> COMMUNITY!
<nixternal> there you go Mike, sorry about that
<nosrednaekim> ok... i'll be your question coordinator... first up is...
<nixternal> drum roll please!
<nosrednaekim> <ligemeget> QUESTION: Is it true that Kubuntu is almost exclusively made by Riddell ?
 * nosrednaekim steps over to his drum set
<nixternal> ligemeget: yes, Riddell is a robot who is fed plenty of grease and electricity, the rest of us just make sure Riddell's batteries don't go dead!
<nixternal> ligemeget: in all actuality
<nosrednaekim> and we are working on a riddell clone
<nixternal> Riddell: is our fearless leader who does a ton of work, but we have numerous excellent contributors
<nosrednaekim> <Syntux> QUESTION: Why Kubuntu team decided to go with building a full distribution instead of keeping it as Ubuntu package and are there any plans to go with the same direction just like Edubuntu ?  and if not then why especially if it's technical reason
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install riddell
<nosrednaekim> (if you were done)
<nosrednaekim> yea... you were :P
<nixternal> Syntux: Kubuntu is a full distro and it is an Ubuntu package (kubuntu-desktop)
<nixternal> the main reason, why should people who want to use KDE have to install Gnome first?
<nixternal> this way here, gearheads can get straight to the KDE love that they want from the first boot
<nixternal> as for going in the Edubuntu direction, not for Kubuntu
<nixternal> the reason is because people don't want Gnome and want KDE only, so Kubuntu provides them with what they want
<nosrednaekim>  <ligemeget> QUESTION: Where the heck in the Kubuntu Documentation located and who do we need to contact if we want to participate in rewriting the whole thing?
<nixternal> the reasoning behind Edubuntu also factored in their much smaller developer pool
<nixternal> ligemeget: Kubuntu docs are located on the system - in Konqueror do help:/kubuntu - In KHelpCenter select the Kubuntu docs up top
<nixternal> ligemeget: Ubuntu Documentation mailing list is the best contact point and I don't have the URL handy right now, get with me after this and I will give you more info
<nosrednaekim>  <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: Wasn't kubuntu.org going to get a make over? What happened?
<nixternal> Odd-rationale: it is still being tweaked....we were hoping to have it finished on release day...hopefully in the next week or so...
<nosrednaekim>  QUESTION: How do you plan to get rid of the whole 'If you want KDE, go get OpenSUSE - Kubuntu is a second rank citizen' myth?
<nosrednaekim> sorry, that was from ligemeget
<nixternal> YES! I KNEW IT WAS COMING!
<nixternal> I have been working on Kubuntu now for almost 3 years and I never got that 2nd class citizen feeling
<nixternal> I will closely with a lot of the Gnome side and we all party like rockstars no matter our distro
<nixternal> the Go Get openSUSE one I haven't heard a bunch of
<nixternal> I have heard get "PC Linux OS"
<nixternal> look, we are reaching our hands out to the community
<nixternal> we need YOU, and all of YOU to help us become #1
<nixternal> it is sad and hurtful seeing people calling my distro of choice a 2nd class citizen
<nixternal> and I know it bothers others who put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into their volunteer work
<nosrednaekim> <RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: where can we find those coding projects you talking about, specially for a CS student!
<nixternal> nobody is perfect, but we being as small as we are work hard trying to get as close to perfection as possible
<nixternal> RoAkSoAx: chill out in #kubuntu-devel, keep on eye on the kubuntu-devel mailing list, and as soon as UDS is over with, we will have a much better idea of what we will have available
<nosrednaekim> <reldruh> QUESTION: can we hear some more about developers meetings? When/where/are non-developers invited, etc?
<nixternal> oh, and voice up that you really want to get into development work too
<nixternal> reldruh: everyone is invited!
<nixternal> our meetings are always in #ubuntu-meeting here on Freenode
<nixternal> we will probably hold 1 more before UDS so keep an eye on the kubuntu-devel mailing list
<nosrednaekim>  <daskrEEch> QUESTION: Can we play with KDE 4.1 packages?
<nixternal> daskrEEch: go to openSUSE
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> daskrEEch: as soon as you package them! Riddell even heard you say that you were going to work on that
<nixternal> should have known you would have asked that one :)
<nosrednaekim>  <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: Do you think there is any likelyhood of KDE following timed-based releases in sync with Ubuntu?
<nixternal> as a matter of fact, we have 4.1 alpha1 release tarballs...sounds like a project to me for you daskrEEch
<nixternal> Odd-rationale: honestly, I hope not...why? why should KDE follow Ubuntu? w/o Gnome or KDE, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are nothing, we should try and follow them like other distros do...Ubuntu/Kubuntu isn't the law of the land
<nixternal> now would I like to see better management of that type of thing, of course, it would totally rock
<nixternal> typically, after release, when KDE releases something new, we work hard to make it available for everyone of our prior releases that are supported
<nosrednaekim> <knoppix> QUESTION: which parts of kubuntu are programmed in python?
<nixternal> knoppix: some of our smaller apps/applets...the new Printer Config that Riddell rocked out, Martin's GDebi-KDE app, Ubiquity the graphical installer
<nixternal> I am reaching here trying to remember others
<nosrednaekim> and and.......
<nixternal> I know there are others
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: do you know anymore that I am missing?
<nosrednaekim> My Desktop-effect-kde app :)
<nixternal> oh ya :p
<nosrednaekim> and the poermanager
<nosrednaekim> *powermanager
<nixternal> oh ya, Guidance
<nosrednaekim> oh... the mountconfig and wine managers as well
<nixternal> whoa, forgot about that one, sorry ScottK and others who broke their backs these past few weeks :)
<nixternal> jeesh, we have quite a bit
<nosrednaekim> and the displayconfig
<Riddell> hwdb, apport, upgrade tool
<nixternal> and more if you want!
<nixternal> rock on!
<nixternal> one more?
<Riddell> oem-config, language-selector
<nixternal> time is running out....if there are more questions, head on over to #kubuntu-devel and we would be glad to answer any more that you may have
<nosrednaekim> no more questions I don't think
<nixternal> hahahaha, Riddell is in Python mode!
<nixternal> rock on...
<nixternal> THANKS EVERYONE! YOU ALL ROCK!
<nixternal> great questions too!
<nosrednaekim> oh... and if you are interested in doing user support, attend my session on saturday on hardware debugging...
<nixternal> rock on nosrednaekim !
<nixternal> wow, there goes the KDE crowd!
<nixternal> hehe
<Amaranth> Are the next people here? Sorry, I can't remember you nicks. :)
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Bazaar for packaging -- Robert Collins & James Westby
<james_w> Hi all.
<james_w> My name is James Westby, and I'm going to talk about using Bazaar for packaging.
<james_w> Sorry to all the Kubuntu fans, it seems like there were loads more questions, hopefully the discussion is continuing elsewhere.
<james_w> So, first of all, what is Bazaar? Some people may not know.
<james_w> Bazaar is a modern, easy to use, version control system. You can find out more at http://bazaar-vcs.org/
<james_w> Why would we want to use Version control for packaging?
<james_w> Firstly, this allows us to keep a finer-grained record of the changes that we made when when we were preparing a new version.
<james_w> Secondly, it allows us to collaborate with other people much more efficiently, as it makes merging their changes easier.
<james_w> <whitenexx> QUESTION: Is bazaar better than subversion?
<james_w> whitenexx: Bazaar is what is known as a "distributed" version control system, which means that branching is really easy
<james_w> that means that you can make a branch for each new feature, allowing you to commit when a feature is not complete, which makes development more reliable.
<james_w> also, as it is distributed you don't need to be in a special blessed group of people with access to commit
<james_w> you can use all the features of the version control system on your own, and then send your changes to be committed to the official branch when you are ready.
<james_w> the last advantage I'll mention is that you have all the history locally, so you can commit when you have no Internet access.
<james_w> there's loads more good things, if you want to find out more you can join #bzr and talk about it there.
<james_w> back to packaging, I explained a couple of benefits for doing this, let's look at what you actually do.
<james_w> The first step is to version the Ubuntu/Debian packaging information so that changes to that are recorded, so you can discover when a dependency was added, or something like that.
<james_w> You can move beyond this, and also use a branch of the upstream code, which makes it easier to do things like "cherry-pick" a change from upstream for a stable release.
<james_w> <ScottK> QUESTION: Why should I bother with bzr?  Why can't Ubuntu use svn or git like everyone else does?
<james_w> ScottK: It's possible to use another system, such as svn or bzr, to version control your packaging, I'll explain the reason that I am focusing on bzr in a little while.
<james_w> I've outlined some advantages of bzr to svn above.
<james_w> bzr and git are much more similar, however, I think that bzr has a much more friendly interface, and should be easier to use.
<james_w> So, lets have a look at a sample package that uses bzr. You can view it at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss
<james_w> you can use "bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss" to get the code locally if you like.
<james_w> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss/files is the web viewer if you prefer that
<james_w> So, you can now use bzr to look at the history, and then work on new versions of the package.
<james_w> So, how to build a package using bzr?
<james_w> "debuild" tool will work as normal, however you would end up with the .bzr directory in the package, which is not what we want.
<james_w> You can get around this by using "debuild -i"
<james_w> However, there is another way. I wrote a tool called "bzr-builddeb" that will export the package, and then call debuild for you.
<james_w> This may seem like overhead at this point, but bzr-builddeb provides other features as wel.
<james_w> If you want to try it out then "apt-get install bzr-builddeb" and try running
<james_w> bzr builddeb
<james_w> in the code that you grabbed earlier
<james_w> (there is a pre-defined alias of "bd" for this, so "bzr bd" works as well, and is quicker to type)
<james_w> <xxxYURAxxx> QUESTION: where i can see manual to build deb packeges with bzr-builddeb
<james_w> xxxYURAxxx: thanks for asking
<james_w> http://jameswestby.net/bzr/builddeb/user_manual/ is the user manual
<james_w> it's not complete, but it describes some things quite well.
<james_w> bzr-builddeb provides you with a number of ways of working, which can be useful in certain circumstances, but the default is probably the one that you want.
<james_w> for instance, it allows you to just version the debian/ directory, and then combines this with the upstream code when building. debuild can't do this, so that's one case where bzr-builddeb is worth having as well as that tool.
<james_w> One feature that version control of your packages can help a lot with is importing new versions of the package, or new upstream versions.
<james_w> The fact that history is recorded means that the merge that happens here can be much more intelligent and help you out a lot in some cases.
<james_w> There are two bzr commands provided by the bzr-builddeb package to do this. The first is ""bzr import-dsc", the second is "bzr merge-upstream"
<james_w> so, if we are packaging using bzr in Ubuntu, and Debian isn't using version control for the package, we can import a new upload from Debian using the "import-dsc" command.
<james_w> you would be in the branch that you have, and you would run "bzr import-dsc foo_1.2.3-4.dsc"
<james_w> this should also work for http:// urls as well, so you can import directly from ftp.debian.org without downloading it if you like.
<james_w> now, Ubuntu already has a tool that does this, called merge-o-matic, or MoM for short.
<james_w> this actually uses version control ideas to do the work, and so it is very similar.
<james_w> however, bzr-builddeb allows you to do it yourself, and for other packages than what merge-o-matic provides.
<james_w> The other command is merge-upstream, this means that when you see a new upstream release that you want to package you can run the command with the new upstream tarball, and then update the changelog and build.
<james_w> If you are happy you can just commit and upload.
<james_w> Apologies for not showing you these features in more detail, or talking you through the different modes, I was worried there wouldn't be time if I tried to do that.
<james_w> If you are interested I would be happy to talk to you at any other time.
<james_w> Does anyone have any more questions now before we wrap up?
<jcastro> unless there are more questions I guess we can wrap up?
<jcastro> Ok then ... tomorrow at 1500 UTC we start up again
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<jcastro> there's the schedule
<james_w> thanks everyone
<jcastro> if you have any comments on how to improve openweek, please feel free to mail me at jorge (at) ubuntu.com
<james_w> Enjoy the rest of open week
<jcastro> thanks james_w!
<Amaranth> Yay! Packaging with dholbach, the man himself
<jcastro> Please feel free to hang out in -chat and discuss topics that we went over today, etc.
<jcastro> nothing beats peer interaction!
<afernandez> hi jcastro do you write in spanish ?
<jcastro> no I do not. I know how to order a beer, that's about it
<afernandez> xD
<jcastro> well, we had over 300 people simultaneously throughout today's sessions, woo hoo!
<nixternal> uno mas!
<nixternal> mas tequila!
<greg-g> uno mas? tres mas!
<nixternal> hehe, triple fistin'
<greg-g> one at the bar, two to roll with
<armanforum> QUESTION: can i import my windows live mail storage into evolution or thunderbird? or any other mail software?
<jcastro> I am pretty sure tbird comes with converters for that
<JohnSGruber> jcastro: So all along you were practicing your Spanish Saturday night?
<jcastro> JohnSGruber: nope, I found that I don't need spanish in michigan that much, heh
<eduardgrebe> JohnSGruber, you're not the daringfireball John Gruber, are you?
<JohnSGruber> No. I'm the opposite of daring. I've used macs before but that's certainly not me.
<eduardgrebe> good. i've seldom come across a greater apologist for Apple, no matter what they do
<radoslav> q
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-29
<deathmask> ez
<j-noise> hi
<j-noise> any on can pls tell me where to start contributing to ubu
<j-noise> I m not an expert programmer .
<ecubuntu> hi j-noise
<ecubuntu> you can start from here: https://bugs.launchpad.net
<MattJ> j-noise: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<[Green]> hi all
<nickishappy> hello
<jaredbuck> no more classes until tomorrow morning. i can't wait. LOL.
<Motor> Hello all
<libregeek> I am using Malayalam(Indian language) in ubuntu-8.04 desktop and noticed that the malayalam words are rendered incorrectly.
<Lynoure> libregeek: you could report a bug on Launchpad, or ask for help on #ubuntu
<[chronos]> QUESTION: Can i play doom3 on ubuntu?
<[chronos]> i have windows version
<karmelek> wine?
* Amaranth changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: None
<[chronos]> wine?/
<[chronos]> what about it ?
<emu> <[chronos]> this is not a support channel, may you could ask in #ubuntu
<afa> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<suff0beast> at what timezone is the class schedule?
<ubuntu_demon> suff0beast: UTC
<Waistless> http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
<Waistless> lucky me, it starts at 2.00am in australia :(
<ububtero> Packaging 101 starts in 2h and 40 minutes, correct?
<suff0beast> ok that would be 8pm in Baghdad
<suff0beast> cool
<asfiuyerjj> still 2 hr to start ??
<asfiuyerjj> what is the exact time .. ?
<SanjayB> 1:50 to start now, i believe, yes .
<soyyo> hi
<CLEARviewF> hi
<CLEARviewF> good morning
<CLEARviewF> from peru
<soyyo> good afternoon
<soyyo> from spain xDD
<CLEARviewF> jeje
<CLEARviewF> Eres tÃº?
<CLEARviewF> :D
<soyyo> si
<CLEARviewF> jaja
<hax> 4 o'clock in germany
<CLEARviewF> 9am in Peru
<stepler> good evening from russia )
<soyyo> hax germany = spain
<CLEARviewF> Tusday April 29th 9am Peru
<SilverOwl> 9:57 in USA
<CLEARviewF> east time SilverOwl
<CLEARviewF> DC time
<soyyo> wow many countries
<lunitik> Anyone know what that is UTC? First session in a couple mins right?
<valemon> good afternoon from Greece
<CLEARviewF> Universal Time Coordinated, lunitik
<raven2223> @lunitik http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
<lunitik> CLEARviewF: I know what it is... I was asking what time it is now in UTC
<lunitik> raven2223: thank you
<soyyo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time
* PriceChild changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Packaging 101 - Session 1 - Daniel Holbach
* PriceChild changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | Current Session: Packaging 101 - Daniel Holbach
<kain> you can do date -u in your terminal
<CLEARviewF> lunitik: 2pm at UTC i think so
<soyyo> at this moment is 15:00 UTC
<PriceChild> @now
<lunitik> +m ?
<Lardarse> PriceChild: the bots aren't running
<PriceChild> it is 15 utc now right?
<PriceChild> Lardarse: i know, forgot :)
<Lardarse> aand no, it's only 14:00
<CLEARviewF> :D
<PriceChild> whoops
 * PriceChild thwacks tricksy BST
<Lardarse> the UK is at UTC +1 right now, which might be confusing you :-)
<doff> 6.01 pm in Moscow
<lunitik> How technical is the first packaging session going to be?
* PriceChild changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | First Session at 15:00 utc is Packaging 101 - Daniel Holbach
<doff> I think you should have such links with time of every event http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=29&month=04&year=2008&hour=14&min=00&sec=0&p1=179
<lunitik> kain: btw, thank you for that command, I probably should have read date()'s man page  :P
<kain> lunitik np
<Symbios> devolopers speack russian?
<ScottK> Symbios: Try #ubuntu-ru
<polyakstar> Ð
<CLEARviewF> 15 minutes left for the class to begin?
<dholbach> yep :)
<CLEARviewF> nice!
<CLEARviewF> thank you, dholbach
<Pat_from_TLLTS> pretty good crowd so far
<nand> btw, "Packaging 101", why "101"?
<Chrysalis> what was the command to get rid of all join, parts etc
<itnet7> introductory packaging ?
<toobuntu> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn, it's /ignoreÂ #ubuntu-classroomÂ CRAPÂ NOTICESÂ SNOTESÂ CTCPSÂ JOINSÂ PARTSÂ QUITSÂ KICKSÂ MODESÂ WALLOPSÂ NICKSÂ DCCÂ DCCMSGSÂ CLIENTNOTICESÂ CLIENTCRAPÂ CLIENTERRORSÂ HILIGHTS
<Chrysalis> toobuntu: thank you
<toobuntu> np
* LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Next session: 15:00 UTC - Packaging 101 - Daniel Holbach
<lunitik> Chrysalis: You can also just right click the tab and uncheck 'Show Join/Parts'
<eragon> Hi
<Scrounch_> Irc's students
<LjL> !question-#ubuntu-classroom is <reply> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat (type /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat).
<Ubotwo> But question-#ubuntu-classroom already means something else!
<LjL> !question-#ubuntu-classroom
<Ubotwo> Please ask your questions here in #ubuntu-classroom-chat rather than #ubuntu-classroom (prefix them with "QUESTION: " or the instructor's nickname)
* LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: Packaging 101 - Daniel Holbach
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to the first of today's Ubuntu Open Week Sessions!
<josc>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<LjL> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat (type /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat), and prefix them with "QUESTION:"
<dholbach> Can we make it so that you either reply to questions for feedback or ask your own questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
<LjL> IRC commands start with / without any leading space
<immesys> Please can we +m this room?
<SanjayB> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<SanjayB> oops. sorry.
<dholbach> We're going to go through a few tutorials together and I'll check back on how things are going every now and then - please speak up in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if that's OK :)
<dholbach> So how are you all doing? How were yesterday's Ubuntu Open Week sessions?
<dholbach> OK, let's get cracking
<dholbach> in our first tutorial we're going to package a small piece of software - for that to work out we need to install a few tools first
<dholbach> Which version of Ubuntu are you running?
<dholbach> Anybody running Intrepid already? ;-)
<dholbach> lots of Hardy users - excellent
<dholbach> the tutorials should work on all the mentioned Ubuntu versions - if things should go wrong though, please speak up in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> Please install the following packages:
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget fakeroot dh-make
<dholbach> So we're going to package ed, the gnu line editor - first we'll download the tarball from the gnu ftp page
<dholbach>  wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/ed/ed-0.9.tar.bz2
<dholbach> The Debian and Ubuntu build-system expects us to upload .tar.gz tarballs afterwards, but as the upstream authors don't offer tar.gz, we will have to repack the tarball
<dholbach>  tar xfj ed-0.9.tar.bz2
<dholbach>  tar cfz ed_0.9.orig.tar.gz ed-0.9
<dholbach> it's also important to note that we have to stick to this kind of nomenclature: ed_0.9.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> <upstream software name>_<upstream version>.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> and the 'orig' in the name is there for a reason: we don't introduce any changes, we keep the source as it is
<dholbach> (there are a very very few exceptions to that - for example cases where we can't ship certain parts of the source code due to licensing problems, etc)
<dholbach> did that work out for everybody up until now?
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> next we're going to use a utility called dh-make which will provide us with default values and default files for the packaging which will make our lives a lot easier
<dholbach>  cd ed-0.9
<dholbach>  dh_make -s -c gpl
<dholbach> we told dh_make that we're packaging a single binary package (-s) and that the copyright is GPL
<dholbach> So what does single binary package mean?
<dholbach> As a package maintainer and developer you only work on the source of package, this involves the tarball (our .orig.tar.gz) plus some patches to make it build the debian/ubuntu way (we'll come to that in a bit)
<dholbach> We upload this "source package" to the build daemon which will then generate the .deb files (binary packages) that we, our friends and our mothers will download and install
<dholbach> from one source package we can generate multiple binary packages (at least one though)
<dholbach> this is a simple example :)
<dholbach> mono is a good example for how you can split up one source package into multiple binary packages:
<dholbach>  apt-cache showsrc mono | grep Binary
<dholbach> this lists some ~80 binary packages which are all built from one source package
<dholbach> LjL: do we have questions already? :)
<LjL> dholbach, i think the couple we had were answered already in the chat channel
<LjL> [17:15:51] <czambran> QUESTIONS : Why would you break once source package into multiple binary packages?
<dholbach> czambran: a very good question
<dholbach> there are multiple reasons
<dholbach> the most obvious one is: because some user groups have a different interest than others
<dholbach> take a library package for example
<dholbach> my mother will be only interested in the library runtime
<dholbach> I might be interested in developing with the library, so I might need all the header files in /usr/include
<dholbach> the same goes for huge directories of documentation, etc
<dholbach> it saves space on the disk (and CDs!), bandwidth, etc
<dholbach> another question I saw was this one:
<dholbach> <RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: How to change e-mail showed after executing  dh_make -s -c gpl
<dholbach> RoAkSoAx: thanks a lot for prodding me about it - it's something I forgot and should have said earlier
<dholbach> dh_make (and other packaging tools) can use an environment variable we should probably set before to make things easier
<dholbach> please edit your   ~/.bashrc   file (or .zshrc if you use zsh) and add something along the lines of:
<dholbach>  export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach>  export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> then save it and please run
<dholbach>  source .bashrc        (or restart your terminal)
<LjL> [17:17:39] <Syntux> QUESTION: What if the source included the application dependent libraries; do we have to include them in the package ?
<dholbach> Syntux: good question - in that case it's definitely worth to tallk to the upstream developers and ask them to ship just their own source in their tarballs
<dholbach> unfortunately some (but not too many) upstream authors think that it would make their users live easier if they shipped all kinds of source code in their tarballs
<dholbach> the ubuntu archive admins can get a bit shirty with you because of that for a simple reason: duplicated code
<dholbach> we really like to have all code just in one place, so if there's a critical fix (like a security problem) we only need to fix it in one place
<LjL> perhaps it's also worth pointing this one out although it was answered, as there could be some confusion due to most packages having source that needs to be compiled: <phil_> QUESTION:  What about programs that don't need compiling, like written python?
<dholbach> did everybody update their  ~/.bashrc ?
<dholbach> phil_: we use one build process for all kinds of packages, so no matter if it's C, Mono, Java, Python, Perl or just a bunch of .png files you want to ship to your users: all use the same build process and all install the files that are shipped to the user during that build process
<dholbach> after the  ~/.bashrc  change, please run:
<dholbach>  rm -r debian; dh_make -s -c gpl
<dholbach> <memnon> QUESTION: AFAIK, Debian and Ubuntu are not fully compatible anymore. Can I make sure a built package works on both?
<dholbach> memnon: you can have a debian chroot where you can test the build, if it works in debian (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot) or use pbuilder (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto)
<dholbach> alright.... let's crack on
<dholbach> we just generated the defaults again, after we set DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL - things should look a bit better now :)
<dholbach> let's see what dh_make generated for us:
<dholbach>  cd debian/
<dholbach>  ls
<dholbach> you can see a lot of files, lots of them have a very special purpose only and it's just too much to cover in this session
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide has a lot of useful information and lots of links to docs you will need to make use of the advanced features
<dholbach> our package is going to be very simple and very straightforward, that's why we're going to remove a lot of example files now
<dholbach>  rm *.ex *.EX dirs docs README.Debian
<dholbach> changelog  compat  control  copyright  info  rules          should be it now
<dholbach> let's edit the changelog first
<dholbach> every change in Ubuntu and Debian has to be properly documented
<dholbach> if you want to figure out why something broke or behaves differently you usually check the changelog first
<dholbach> and because people are going to use your package and you collaborate with a lot of people on it you do them a favor and let them know very explicitly what you do :)
<dholbach> the first changelog entry is not very exciting though: something like "Initial release" should be enough
<dholbach> it might also be worth pointing out that we re-packed the tarball (without changes)
<dholbach> <Zelut> QUESTION: Does this chagelog just contain package-related changes or source code related changes?
<dholbach> Zelut: good question
<dholbach> Zelut: some maintainers like to point out major changes that a new upstream version introduced, but there's no strict must
<dholbach> if you'Re on hardy, check out:
<dholbach>  zless /usr/share/doc/gedit/changelog.Debian.gz
<dholbach> you can see that seb128 explained what the new upstream version gained us
<dholbach> but let's crack on - let's make the changelog ubuntu compliant :)
<dholbach> our changelog.... :)
<dholbach> first we'll change the version number to 0.9-0ubuntu1
<dholbach> the version number has the following format:
<dholbach>  - packages that have no ubuntu changes:    <upstream version>-<debian revision>
<dholbach>  - packages that HAVE   ubuntu changes:    <upstream version>-<debian revision>ubuntu<ubuntu revision>
<dholbach> as our own package never was in debian, <debian revision> will be "0" in our case
<dholbach> hence 0.9-0ubuntu1
<dholbach> we'll also change 'unstable' (the debian default) to 'intrepid'
<dholbach> why?
<dholbach> because intrepid is the current development release and we can only upload to the current development release
<dholbach> (hardy-updates, hardy-security, hardy-backports, etc are exceptions)
<dholbach> we'll not change the urgency as it has no effect in the ubuntu build system
<dholbach> the "changelog part" of the entry should be something like
<dholbach>   * Initial release.
<dholbach>   * Re-packed from .tar.bz2 (no changes).
<dholbach> can you post your changelog entry to http://paste.ubuntu.com/ and post the link in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you made it?
<dholbach> mfm: good work
<dholbach> lmontrie: that looks good
<dholbach> <Syntux> QUESTION: Do we have to stick to certain text format in changelog? tabs/spaces ?
<dholbach> Syntux: if you use an editor like 'vi' it will let you know about syntax problems in debian/changelog - also the packaging tools we're going to use to build the packages will complain
<dholbach> <RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: when packaging or merging for the current development release... in this case, should be do it using Intrepid or we can do it on hardy. How, using a pbuilder
<dholbach> RoAkSoAx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases is the answer
<dholbach> there are lots of ways in which you can use the development release - it's important that you're able to
<dholbach>  - test build your package
<dholbach>  - test your package
<dholbach> in the release that you're going to upload to
<LjL> <immesys> QUESTION: Should we package restricted content such as graphics drivers too? Or should we stick to Debian packages?
<dholbach> Syntux: yours looks good too, although I'd personally add a newline below the last bullet point (but yours is OK)
<dholbach> immesys: there are restrictions on what we're allowed to ship in Ubuntu - it has to be redistributable - there's a wiki page which explains that but I don't have the URL handy right now - can somebody give it to immesys?
<dholbach> so we have the changelog sorted out, let's crack on
<dholbach> we'll skip the files compat (defines debhelper compatibility level - check out debhelper(7) for more info) and info (info page for the ed package) as they should be OK as they are
<LjL> dholbach: it might be http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing that you wanted to point immesys to
<dholbach> LjL: thanks - that looks like a good start
<dholbach> a lot of important information is available from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment too (how the archive works, ubuntu policies, etc)
<dholbach> let's edit the  control  file now
<dholbach> it carries the important information about binary and source packages I talked about earlier
<dholbach> it consists of a source stanza (always the first in the file) and one or multiple binary stanzas
<dholbach> we'll only make minimal changes to it right now
<dholbach>  Section: editors              should be fine
<dholbach> one important field in the source section is "Build-Depends"
<LjL> <Zelut> QUESTION: Is there a list of possible 'section's that can be referred to?
<dholbach> it means: installing these packages into a minimal system will suffice to make it built
<dholbach> Zelut: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections
<dholbach> what happens if we upload our source package to a build machine is: use a fresh minimal environment, then install the build-depends
<dholbach> in our case we'll stick to the defaults as ed doesn't need a lot of build-dependencies (just libc6-dev, which is always installed by means of 'build-essential')
<dholbach> if you package a C or C++ piece of software it's usually worth reading configure.ac or configure.in to find out what the build-dependencies are
<dholbach> also the README file is a good source for that
<dholbach> the pbuilder tool I referred to earlier does the same as the build machines in the data centre: it uses a fresh minimal environment, then installs the build-depends, then build your package
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto if you want to try it out
<dholbach> <mfm> QUESTION: So do I have to add libc6-dev to my Build-Depends?
<dholbach> mfm: no, build-essential is always installed and get libc6-dev for you
<dholbach> other than that the source stanza is looking quite good now
<dholbach> the second stanza is about the binary package we install
<dholbach> of couse we want a nice description, so adept and synaptic users know what "ed" is all about
<dholbach> so let's get the description from the README file:
<dholbach> Description: standard Unix line editor
<dholbach>  GNU ed is an 8-bit clean, more or less POSIX-compliant implementation
<dholbach>  of the standard Unix line editor. These days, full-screen editors have
<dholbach>  rendered `ed' mostly of historical interest. Nonetheless, it appeals
<dholbach>  to a handful of aging programmers who still believe that "Small is
<dholbach>  Beautiful".
<dholbach> is what I put in there
<Mez> <lmontrie> QUESTION: What does the 'Standards-Version' field means ?
<dholbach> the first line is the "short description", the subsequent lines (all indented by one space) are the long description
<dholbach> lmontrie: good question - I omitted that
<dholbach> Standards-Version refers to the version of the debian policy your package complies with
<dholbach> if you type:
<dholbach>  apt-cache show debian-policy | grep ^Version
<dholbach> if will show which version of the debian policy is available on your system
<dholbach> it's an important document that will in most of the cases have the answer to your question :)
<dholbach>     Architecture: any     is important too
<dholbach> it means that our package will be built on any of the architectures in the data centre
<dholbach> which means: i386, amd64, powerpc, sparc, hppa, lpia, ia64, etc
<dholbach> we compile C code in this package which is going to be architecture specific
<dholbach> if you just happen to ship some perl scripts, you can change the field to
<dholbach>     Architecture: all
<dholbach>    Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
<dholbach> is the most daunting looking line - what is it about?
<dholbach> ${shlibs:Depends} is a variable that will be substituted after the build
<dholbach> it will contain all the library packages that contain libraries that the binaries in the ed package are linked to
<dholbach> does that make sense? :)
<Mez> Mixed opinion it seems dholbach.. An example maybe?
<dholbach> OK, I just installed the existing ed package of the archive, if I run ldd on the /bin/ed binary, it gives me:
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~/1$ ldd /bin/ed
<dholbach> 	linux-gate.so.1 =>  (0xb7f9e000)
<dholbach> 	libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 (0xb7e3e000)
<dholbach> 	/lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7f9f000)
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~/1$
<dholbach> what it spits out is the libraries /bin/ed is linked against
<dholbach> the build process will translate library file names into library packages and note them in the Depends: field afterwards
<dholbach> never specify explicit library dependencies by hand
<dholbach> this process is really elegant
<dholbach> ${misc:Depends} is another substitution variable which is used in special cases like gnome (it will for example contain gconf if one of the packaging tools identifies gconf schemas are installed, etc)(
<dholbach> ${misc:Depends} is empty most of the time
<dholbach> debian/control should be all set now
<dholbach> can you post your debian/control file to http://pastebin.com/ (or any other pastebin site that works) and post the link  in  #ubuntu-classroom-questions ?
<dholbach> MattJ: looks good, PartyBoi2: could do with a bit of editing in the description - other than that good
<Mez> dholbach, I think you mean #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<dholbach> Zelut: good
<dholbach> Mez: yes, sorry
<dholbach> lmontrie: great
<dholbach> kef_kf: looking good
<dholbach> Syntux: one newline too much in the description - you'd at least need a " ." to split the text up a bit
<dholbach> mfm: good
<dholbach> czambran: make it one space instead of a tab - other than that good
<dholbach> wow.... good work everybody :)
<dholbach> the next file we're going to look at is really really important
<dholbach> copyright
<dholbach> it contains information about the authors, the copyright holder and license of each file that you're shipping
<dholbach> the archive admins will make sure that debian/copyright is in tip-top state and that you've not left anything out and that all source is perfectly redistributable
<dholbach> the more careful you are in making sure that it's alright, the happier they'll be with you - and you want them happy :)
<dholbach> can you open another terminal, cd into the ed-0.9 directory and run:
<dholbach>   find . -name '*.c' | xargs head | less
<dholbach> this will display you the top lines of each .c file in the source
<dholbach> please note that that's not enough to ensure that everything you ship is alright, but just illustrates what you look at and what you look for
<dholbach> for now we'll just refer to:
<dholbach>     Copyright (C) 1993, 1994 Andrew Moore, Talke Studio
<dholbach>     Copyright (C) 2006, 2007, 2008 Antonio Diaz Diaz.
<dholbach> as the copyright holders
<dholbach> also please see the AUTHORS file
<dholbach> we'll copy the authors from there into the   Upstream authors:   section in debian/copyright
<dholbach> also you need to point out where you obtained the tarball from - pointing to    ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/ed/     should be good enough
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Howtos/DebianCopyright explains a bit more about it
<dholbach> next let's take a quick look at debian/rules
<dholbach> it's a Makefile which contains standard targets the debian/ubuntu build process expects
<dholbach> it usually contains: build, binary, binary-arch, binary-indep, clean - if it confuses you right now, that's OK
<dholbach> we'll leave debian/rules as it is for our example and I usually recommend to work on existing packages and modify existing bits to get a better feeling for the build process and which bits are called when
<dholbach> what we'll do now is generate the source package from the changes we just did
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>   debuild -S
<dholbach> and see:
<dholbach>  ls ../..
<dholbach> you should have a .diff.gz and a .dsc file in addition to the .orig.tar.gz we created initially
<dholbach> <mfm> QUESTION: run dbuild from debian or ed-0.9?
<dholbach> mfm: both should work
<dholbach> .orig.tar.gz is the unmodified tarball
<dholbach> .diff.gz is the compressed changes we had to make to make it build the ubuntu/debian way :)
<dholbach> some of you got a GPG warning
<dholbach> that does not indicate a failed build, but that you might need to set up GPG properly
<dholbach> I didn't make this part of this tutorial to safe us a bit of time: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto is a very good guide to get you up and running
<dholbach> the .dsc file is a description file that contains md5sums of .orig.tar.gz, the .diff.gz and the like - together they are what we call a source package
<dholbach> ok... now that we have our source package all set - let's get us a binary package
<dholbach> cd back into the ed-0.9 tree
<dholbach> and run       debuild -us -uc            (this will run the build and omit the final step of signing the package)
<dholbach> <Zelut> QUESTION: Is there a way to export GPG settings in a similar way we exported EMAIL and NAME?
<dholbach> Zelut: the packaging tools will make use of the gpg key that has the key id that matches your DEBEMAIL
<dholbach> at the end of our build lintian might emit a few warnings and errors: this is kind of things you will need to work out if you work on a real package and not a silly example as we do over here :)
<dholbach> for now we can ignore them
<dholbach> a    ls ../*.deb    should mention a package we just build
<dholbach>  less ../ed_0.9-0ubuntu1_*.deb    should give you information about the package we just built
<dholbach>  - contents
<dholbach>  - package description
<dholbach>  - version
<dholbach> and note:
<dholbach>  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.4)
<dholbach> did that work out for everybody?
<dholbach> excellent - a whole lot of succesfully built packages - congratulations everybody  :)
<dholbach> do we have some questions? :)
<dholbach> <mfm> QUESTION: It shows "libc6 (>= 2.6-1)" for me - depends on the Release which it has been buid?
<dholbach> mfm: yes, that depends on which release you built the package
<dholbach> <Syntux> Okie, we got the package, whats the root pass to upload it :p
<dholbach> Syntux: you need to have signed it with a gpg key that is registered on Launchpad for a user that is in the ~ubuntu-dev team
<dholbach> the rest is here:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive#Uploading
<dholbach> that's why following   https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto   and reading it thoroughly is important :)
<dholbach> other than that I recommend #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net as a means of getting in touch with developers and asking questions regarding packages
<dholbach> and ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted is a good guide and links to all the important information
<dholbach> <Zelut> QUESTION: If we've built a package that we want reviewed do we just annoy -motu or are there mentors we can ask?
<dholbach> Zelut: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU explains how you can upload a package for review
<dholbach> if you have specific questions you can always ask in #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> any more questions?
<dholbach> who enjoyed their first ride through packaging? who wants more of it? :)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn has some more tutorials you can go through on your own later
<dholbach> <maco> QUESTION: this is PPA-related.  ive tried to upload the same .orig.gz before but with a different .diff.gz and a lower version number to upload for a different version (wanted to compile for gutsy and hardy), but it said the orig didn't match. What'd i do wrong there?
<dholbach> for everybody who's not familiar with PPAs: please see http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
<dholbach> it's basically a build service for testing and sharing packages
<dholbach> maco: a lower version number does not work out if it accepted a higher version number before - but that should have been explicit in the rejection mail
<dholbach> best to ask in #launchpad or ask in the session later on at 19:00 UTC
<dholbach> <Syntux> QUESTION: When a MOTU wannabe should apply to become part of the official team? do s/he have to be seriously fluent in packaging or there are another way of defining the expertise level.
<dholbach> excellent question
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers explains more about the actual process of applying
<dholbach> so how does one become a MOTU?
<dholbach> basically it boils down to: contribute, get good quality packages and patches uploaded by people who are in the ubuntu-dev team already (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess)
<dholbach> until they tell you: "hey you're doing great - why don't you apply for MOTU?"
<dholbach> then you apply with a brief explanation of what you've done, what you want to do and your sponsors' feedback at the MOTU Council
<dholbach> I generally recommend to work on existing packages and fix a few 'bitesize' bugs before starting to package random software
<dholbach> it's better to start off small and get a feeling for the build process, for how packages work and so on
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO should list a lot of tasks you can get cracking on
<dholbach> <Zelut> QUESTION: Do you have an example copyright for ed you can show us?  We kinda breezed through that one quickly.
<dholbach> Zelut: no, but I'll post one later
<dholbach> <Syntux> QUESTION: What's the best way to find unpackaged applications that people need especially with the large repository of debian and Ubuntu it's really hard to find the kick start package.
<dholbach> Syntux: as I said above: I *REALLY* recommend working on existing packages - in Ubuntu we maintain all the packages as a team
<dholbach> of couse some people have more expertise with certain packages than others, but there's no "big maintainer lock" which prevents others from working on the same package or as a maintenance team
<dholbach> so I'd rather start off with picking a bug, and getting a small piece of the puzzle to work again
<dholbach> you can even do it as your http://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day :)
<dholbach> but if you really want to package a piece of software that somebody else has good use for, try: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=needs-packaging
<dholbach> for that it's important to point out a few things:
<dholbach>  - putting your name in the maintainer field means: you're going to take good care of it (read bug reports, talk to the upstream developers, take care of making it work as good as you can etc)
<dholbach>  - that works best if you take care of a piece of software that you yourself have a good use for
<dholbach> >RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: regarding to copyright question of Zelut , would it be like this?: http://pastebin.com/m6a7116d4
<dholbach> the upper part looks quite OK already
<dholbach> what's missing is the GPL3 text
<dholbach> if you check out the top lines of the .c files you will notice that it mentions GPL3, not GPL2
<dholbach> this makes a big difference and will be something the archive admins will complain about
<dholbach> also we would have to make sure that
<dholbach> #
<dholbach>     Copyright (C) 1993, 1994 Andrew Moore, Talke Studio
<dholbach> #
<dholbach>     Copyright (C) 2006, 2007, 2008 Antonio Diaz Diaz.
<dholbach> are the only copyright holders
<dholbach> it'd require some more love
<dholbach> <Zelut> QUESTION: If we write a peice of software that we want to submit for inclusion is it still the same REVU process?
<dholbach> Zelut: yes, you will submit your new package to REVU, will let it get 2 ACKs, then it can be uploaded to the archive
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages has more to say about that
<dholbach> you'll get extra points for having a "good contact to the upstream author" though :)
<dholbach> more questions?
<dholbach> <Syntux> So it seems a MOTU works as a middle man between the upstream developers and Ubuntu repository, the scenario should be something like, picking a package (new or existing), follow up on bugs, patches, releases and put the result in a package
<dholbach> Syntux: exactly
<dholbach> and that's what makes it fun - you deal with a lot of people: your users, the debian maintainers, maintainers of other distributions, upstream developers etc
<dholbach> and by making things work you'll make a lot of people very happy :)
<dholbach> So who of you can we expect in #ubuntu-motu for making intrepid ROCK?
<dholbach> excelltn :)
<dholbach> <maco> QUESTION: how does making a debdiff differ from making a normal source deb?
<dholbach> maco: if you post a source package for REVU you upload the full .orig.tar.gz .diff.gz and .dsc files somewhere
<dholbach> in the case of a debdiff it's just a diff file with the changes you did in a fix upload for example
<dholbach> Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff for an example
<dholbach> another important part of developing Ubuntu:
<dholbach> Hugging!
 * dholbach hugs y'all :)
<dholbach> You all ROCK and I hope you had big fun in the session - because I did
<dholbach> The next session is "Ubuntu Mobile Edition - An introduction and Q+A - Adilson Oliveira"
<dholbach> please do send me a mail on how your doing regarding packaging and doing development
<dholbach> you all rock!
<dholbach> LjL, Mez: can you give agoliveira the power to speak? :)
 * agoliveira waves all
<dholbach> gracias
<agoliveira> Thanks. Hello all, thanks for attending and for having me.
* Mez changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Ubuntu Mobile Edition - An introduction and Q+A - Adilson Oliveira
<agoliveira> My name is Adilson Oliveira and I'm part of the core team developing UME.
<agoliveira> My objective here is to explain a bit about the project and try to clear the doubts you may have.
<agoliveira> I ask you to be forgiven as English is not my first language, it's my first time in this spot and I must say I'm kind of nervous right now :)
<agoliveira> Ok, let's start with: what is UME?
<agoliveira> - The Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded project aims to derive an operating system for mobile internet devices using Ubuntu as a base and the Moblin project from Intel as upstream to parts of the project, mostly hardware support.
<agoliveira> - It's sponsored by Canonical and Intel.
<agoliveira> - It's extending Ubuntu by providing infrastructure for mobile development.
<agoliveira> ï»¿All of the necessary components are being integrated into the Ubuntu package archive, ready to install and run, or to tailor for custom mobile applications.
<agoliveira> - The project is focused on x86 processors, using architectures created by Intel's LPIA platform. http://www.intel.com/technology/systems/lpia/. In the future, different processors may be supported. ARM is one we have in mind.
<agoliveira> and what isn't? (for those who never cared to look at the FAQ) :)
<agoliveira> - A ready to run, consumer-type platform. UME is more a technology base than a product on itself. It's aimed to help developers and manufacturers to create a product.
<agoliveira> - It is not for cellphones or PDAs. UME is created with MID and UMPC platforms. These are about communications (audio, video, IM), rich web experience, full-blown applications. They have more like a very small PC with touchscreen.
<agoliveira> So far so good?
<agoliveira> Great
<agoliveira> Are we there yet?
<agoliveira> - We are in the process to deliver the first release in the next few weeks. This is the engineering point of view and there's a lot other considerations so watch for the release announcement! :)
<agoliveira> Ok, now that we have the basic bits, let's start the fun part: How can I try/test it?
<agoliveira> First, bare in mind that there's very little hardware available that can run UME right now.
<agoliveira> The only piece of commercial hardware easily found that you can run UME out of the box is the Samsung Q1 Ultra but as this is a matter of hardware support,
<agoliveira> it's not hard to add other platforms.
<agoliveira> If you have any questions, dont' for get to ask then in ï»¿#ubuntu-classroom-chat making as ï»¿QUESTIONS:
<agoliveira> Meanwhile I'll keep bombarding you :)
<agoliveira> Talking about testing:
<agoliveira> There's basically 2 ways to test it: using a supported hardware (which is kind of hard to find as I said) and simulating it.
<agoliveira> Using the hardware is a no-brainer, just create the image (we're going to talk about this in a minute) and transfer for it.
<agoliveira> To simulate, you can use Xephyr on your desktop. Very pratical but... there's aways a "but":
<agoliveira> The advantage of simulation is that you can run tests more quickly and can easily test things like different resolutions but you loose hardware support like touchscreen and some things like DPI can change a lot from one device to another so text appearance, for instance, may not be accurate.
<agoliveira> ï»¿bugslayr: QUESTION: is it theoretically possible to build UME for a low end intel PC?
<agoliveira> bugslayr: Yes, it is. I'll talk about this a bit later
<agoliveira> ï»¿ï»¿gnomonic: QUESTION: Other platforms? Such as the Nokia N810?
<agoliveira> gnomonic: As I said, the project aims x86/UMPCs only for now. Things like ARM support is possible but Nokia devices carry some aditional problems:
<agoliveira> Parts of the hardtawre are proprietary so no open support for them.
<agoliveira> ï»¿ F30: QUESTION: Why not building a ready-t-run platform such as Ubuntu Desktop or Server edition? Do you think that companies like a technology base more? As Microsoft currently doesn't have a MID OS in my opinion it could be a great chance for Ubutu if users see that "Ubuntu" works fine on their MID they may also give it a chance for their PC too - but that could only work with ONE UME version.
<agoliveira> F30: This project is about buildoing a platform, not a ready to run system. As for the reason to do it, I'll have to ask someone upper the food chain, I'm just a humble enginner ;)
<agoliveira> ï»¿Flyser__: QUESTION: So UME will not run (well) on full blown notebooks?
<agoliveira> Flyser__: It can but it's aim is for devices with touchscreen, not very common on notebooks.
<agoliveira> Ok, going on...
<agoliveira> How to install UME?
<agoliveira> There's basically 2 ways:
<agoliveira> You can download a ready to run image from here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/ or you can build your own image.
<agoliveira> Again: the hardware support for now, specially in those images, is very restricted. I only recommend to try on a Samsung Q1 using the images found in the links with "samsung" on it.
<agoliveira> The others are designed to run on development boards but, again, it's more a matter of kernel changes so it's quite hackable.
<agoliveira> The preferend method it to use the image creator (more about in a minute) to generate your own image and test it on your desktop or put it into a device. I recommend this method as it's easier to test and hack to adapt to a different platform.
<agoliveira> Any questions up to this point?
<agoliveira> Well, or I'm doing very well or I'm boring as hell :)
<agoliveira> ï»¿QUESTION : Could directly take an image from the given link and test it using Xephyr ?
<agoliveira> Raseel: No. The image is designed to run directly from the device. In theory one could hack it to do it but it's not pratical.
<agoliveira> leftyfb: QUESTION: What other devices are next on the list for compatibility going forward? I'm personally concerned about the EEEpc
<agoliveira> leftyfb: There's nothing defined yet but we are sure aware of this kind of device (I have one myself) and as it's easy to hack UME to work on it, I guess you can expect news on this field, from us or from the communit
<agoliveira> Ok, so let's talk a bit about how to build an image. The only problem in doing this right now is that due the time it takes, specially the first time, we won't be able to do it in real time but feel free to contact the gang later.
<agoliveira> There's this tool used to create the images, the moblin-image-creator. Install it the usual way, sudo apt-get install moblin-image-creator
<agoliveira> Run it: sudo image-creator (yes, it has to run sudoed)
<agoliveira> You will see a simple interface with 3 basic parts: the platform projects, targets and target images.
<agoliveira> There's some (old) visual here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/CreatingAnImageForUMEDevice
<agoliveira> ï»¿ bugslayr: QUESTION: does "apt-get install moblin-image-creator" install all required packages or is there something else I have to take care of?
<agoliveira> bugslayr: the iamge creator will download and install all the necessary packages into a chroot.
<agoliveira> image
<agoliveira> First, let's create a platform project. Click on Add and you will see a dialog asking for some data, all self-explanatory but the platform selection.
<agoliveira> The platform indicates to what hardware the image will be created (currently mccaslin and menlow only) and from where the packages will be retrieved.
<agoliveira> Let me explain that the project is the base from your targets will be created (more on this in a minute)
<agoliveira> Mccaslin is the platform of the Samsung Q1 and others around and menlow is the current platform provided by intel for the new generation devices.
<agoliveira> I'm not aware of any commercial solution using it right now. Let's select as if it would be created for a Q1 so, let's use mccaslin-lpia-ubuntu-hardy-ppa which will assure you get the latest packages.
<agoliveira> Be aware that the project is running very fast so things tend to break at this moment so don't be alarmed or frunstrated if your image don't work pronto :)
<agoliveira> After you select you platform, press add target and your base system will be created. It can take a long time.
<agoliveira> I mean, even hours deppending on your link.
 * agoliveira simulates having a coffee...
<agoliveira> After it's done, you will now create a target which is what's actually going into the device.
<agoliveira> Again, more waiting...
<agoliveira> At first, just the bare minimal will be installed and now you can add a bunch of packages called fsets.
<agoliveira> Click in Add Funcional Sets and you will see a list of groups you can add to your basic image.
<agoliveira> Those fsets are basically a group of packages and dependencies to give you something functional in the end.
<agoliveira> Try samsung-full-mobile-stack-with-proprietary for a very complete one. Note that by selecting it several other ones are selected automatically.
<agoliveira> After that, wait until the packages are downloaded and installed.
<agoliveira> BTW, if you're planing working on this in a regular basis, I strongly recommend to add a squid cache in your network.
<agoliveira> Even without it, after the initial setup things tend to go faster.
<agoliveira> After that you can create a several different kinds of images that can be transfered to a USB stick and installed on your device or you can test it live using Xephyr.
<agoliveira> For testing on the device I recomend the install USB one which will prepare the image to automatically install in your device.
<agoliveira> BIG FAT WARNING: this will wipeout your device storage!
<agoliveira> ï»¿Raseel: QUESTION: How much time would it take , approx, for the base system to be created ?
<agoliveira> Raseel: As I said, deppends on how fast you can downlaod stuff. For the first time it can take hours.
<agoliveira> Don't tell that I didn't warn you all :)
<Amaranth> jcastro: I did it for you this time. :)
<jcastro> Ok, Nicolas is next with Merging Packages 101
<jcastro> agoliveira had connection problems, so please drop by #ubuntu-mobile if you want to continue the discussion there
<jcastro> nxvl: your turn!
<nxvl> \o/
<nxvl> wooohooo
<nxvl> it's merging time!!
<nxvl> Hi!
<nxvl> We are going to learn how to merge packages
<nxvl> But, first of all we need to understand what this merging thing is.
<nxvl> On the first stage of our development circle we import packages from debian unstable (sid)
<nxvl> and then we start working on them
<nxvl> fixing bugs and adding features
<nxvl> but if we import all the packages from debian, the work done before will be missing?
<nxvl> Well, that's not entirely true.
<nxvl> We have 2 ways to import packages from debian: sync and merge
<nxvl> To sync a package is to import it from debian as it is, without furter changes.
<nxvl> On the other hand we have merging.
<nxvl> To merge a package is to take the debian package, and include on it the ubuntu changes
<nxvl> but, not all changes, we need to check if the ubuntu changes hasn't been already included on debian.
<nxvl> That happends often since in ubuntu we are thankfull with debian and send the patches back to them
<nxvl> so they can also take approach of our work.
<nxvl> < Raseel> QUESTION: So syncing is usually done for new packages taken       from Debian ?
<nxvl> Raseel: good one
<nxvl> Raseel: yes, it is
<nxvl> Raseel: but not only on this cases
<nxvl> Raseel: also we do sync when we haven't change the package in ubuntu
<nxvl> Raseel: and when all the ubuntu work has been already included on debian
<nxvl>  < rlaager> QUESTION: If I'm interested in getting a new package into
<nxvl>                  Ubuntu (by way of Debian), when is the cut-off?
<nxvl> rlaager: the Debian import Freeze is the time we don't import anything
<nxvl> rlaager: after the DIF we only include special packages
<nxvl> rlaager: so you need to ask for an exception to it
<nxvl> for Ibex the DIF is going to be on Jube 26
<nxvl> June*
<nxvl> you can see more of it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
<nxvl> Ok have we understand what a merge is?
<nxvl> well
<nxvl> it seems se did
<nxvl> So, now that we have clear the concept of merging i will explain how a merge is done
<nxvl> and do a merge with you, so this will be a hands on talk.
<nxvl> First of all we need to check what packages need to be merged, since sync is done automatically.
<nxvl> and that where MoM goes in.
<nxvl> We call MoM our merging tool, which is an acronym of Merge-o-Matic - MoM
<nxvl> It can be found on http://merges.ubuntu.com
<nxvl> We are going on how to use it later, first we need some tools.
<nxvl> First of all we need to create a work directory, i use to use ubuntu/src, but you could use whatever you want to
<nxvl> From now on we are calling this $WORK_DIR, so please create a working directory for your own.
<nxvl> now store the path on the $WORK_DIR variable writting "export $WORK_DIR=/path/to/work/directory"
<nxvl> which in my case will be "export WORK_DIR=~/ubuntu/src"
<nxvl> ok, now that we have it we need to download the grab-merge script
<nxvl> you can find it in MoM, there is a link on the header text which point to it.
<nxvl> For making it easier just download it from here: http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh
<nxvl> and save it on $WORK_DIR, just write on your terminal:
<nxvl> cd $WORK_DIR ; wget -c http://merges.ubuntu.com/grab-merge.sh; chmod +x grab-merge.sh
<nxvl> ok, now we will need some packages, we need devscripts, which are packages for doing our packaging work
<nxvl> and most important for merging patchutils, so please run:
<nxvl> sudo apt-get install devscripts patchutils
<nxvl> i will wait a little so you all can download and install them
<nxvl> oh! i have a question in here
<nxvl> 13:09 <progfou> QUESTION: so, except during the DIF time, any Debian package will be sync'd ?
<nxvl> progfou: yes, all the packages that doesn't need to be merged are automatically synced
<nxvl> after DIF we need special cases to sync and merge packages
<nxvl> ok!
<nxvl> so all of you must have the tools installed
<nxvl> < Raseel> QUESTION: Which package are we planning to merge ?
<nxvl> Raseel: beagle
<nxvl> ok, i think we have all what we need now, so let's start
<nxvl> i will do a complete, so a "complex" merge, so you understand everything you can see on a merge
<nxvl> and later i will do a simple and easy merge if we have time.
<nxvl> What we need?
<nxvl> just to pick a package and make an empty directory.
<nxvl> to pick a package you need to browse the list of packages on MoM
<nxvl> as we are new contributor our main focus will be on universe, so go into the universe list:
<nxvl> http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
<nxvl> There we find a large list of packages, with their ubuntu, debian and base version
<nxvl> also we see the last uploader, which is the last person who work on the package, and in some cases the uploader
<nxvl> QUESTION: as a debian maintainer, is it safe to wait that the  package to merge is in testing ?
<nxvl> rZr: nop
<nxvl> rZr: we merge from debian sid, not from testing
<nxvl> why isn't the person who work on a package the one who upload it? well, as contributor we don't have access to the servers
<nxvl> < arhimodeg> QUESTION: on apt-get is always the last revision of a  program?
<nxvl> arhimodeg: yes
<nxvl> < rZr> even when there are know RC bugs ?
<nxvl> rZr: yes
<nxvl> rZr: we fix them after DIF
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> why isn't the person who work on a package the one who upload it? well, as contributor we don't have access to the servers
<nxvl> so we need a sponsor who will check our work, send us some feedback if something is wrong and/or upload it when they are happy with our work
<nxvl> but more on this later.
<nxvl> We are going to work on beagle
<nxvl> so we are going to create an empty directory to work on it and get into it:
<nxvl> mkdir $WORK_DIR/beagle ; cd $WORK_DIR/beagle
<nxvl> now we need to download the packages to work on them, that's easily done with the script we download earlier:
<nxvl> ../grab-merge.sh beagle
<nxvl> i will give you some minutes so we all have the files we need
<nxvl> now we wait until it downloads the debian package and the ubuntu one.
<nxvl> most of the work have been already done by MoM, we only need to work on some tunning and the tasks which need human intervension
<nxvl> rZr: thnx :D
<nxvl> ok, if everything is already downloaded we can see a file called REPORT, this is the first thing we need to look at
<nxvl> in this case we see a CONFLICTS title on it where we can find a line saying:
<nxvl>   C  debian/patches/00list
<nxvl> That means that on this file we have a conflict and we need to decide what to include and what to remove
<nxvl> so, open it with your prefered text editor, i prefer vim, so i will use it for the example, feel free to use the one you are more comfortable with
<nxvl> cd beagle-0.3.4-1ubuntu1/ ; vim debian/patches/00list
<nxvl> there we see:
<nxvl> <<<<<<< beagle-0.3.3-2ubuntu1 (ubuntu)
<nxvl> glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch
<nxvl> =======
<nxvl> fix_system-scripts.dpatch
<nxvl> >>>>>>> beagle-0.3.4-1 (debian)
<nxvl> now we need to check what this patches are and what to keep
<nxvl> doing 'ls debian/patches/' we find that we have the 2 patches in there
<nxvl> we need to check at the changelog to decide if we want to delete one of them, we can use dch command for this:
<nxvl> dch -e
<nxvl> there we see that Luca Falavigna added glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch on 0.3.3-2ubuntu1
<nxvl> (if you are using vim put the cursor on 0.3.3-2ubuntu1 and press space bar
<nxvl> but we alse see that Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo disable it on 0.3.4-1:
<nxvl>     + glib-sharp-2.0-support: disabled. Included upstream.
<nxvl> but there is no explicit change adding glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch to debian, but we can assume that he include it on 0.3.3-3
<nxvl> since the patch has been included to fix FTBFS as well as the change on 0.3.3-3, se we need to check what Debian bug #470328 is
<nxvl> we can check it on BTS, the debian bug tacker, at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=470328
<nxvl> as we see on the report Luca send his patch back to debian, and they include it, so now we are sure that the patch was included on 0.3.3-3 and it's save to remove it
<nxvl> so we need to remove:
<nxvl> <<<<<<< beagle-0.3.3-2ubuntu1 (ubuntu)
<nxvl> glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch
<nxvl> =======
<nxvl> and
<nxvl> >>>>>>> beagle-0.3.4-1 (debian)
<nxvl> from debian/patches/00list and also is a good idea to remove debian/patches/glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch since we don't need it anymore
<nxvl> Then we just need to edit the changelog adding the changes we are keeping, so the changelog entry needs to be:
<nxvl> beagle (0.3.4-1ubuntu1) hardy; urgency=low
<nxvl>   * Merge from debian unstable, remaining changes:
<nxvl>     - debian/control:
<nxvl>       + Rename ice{weasel,dove}-beagle to {mozilla,thunderbird}-beagle and
<nxvl>         and update the dependencies accordingly.
<nxvl>       + Change Maintainer to Ubuntu Mono Team.
<nxvl>     - debian/rules:
<nxvl>       + Install the mozilla-beagle and thunderbird-beagle extensions.
<nxvl>     - ice{dove,weasel}.dirs:
<nxvl>       + Renamed to {mozilla,thunderbird}-beagle.dirs.
<nxvl>       + Fixed paths to point to usr/lib/{firefox,thunderbird}
<nxvl>  -- Nicolas ValcÃ¡rcel <nvalcarcel@ubuntu.com>  Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:33:30 -0500
<nxvl> 13:28 < ScottK> lintian will also kvetch at you if you have a patch system, but  no patches.
 * nxvl HUGS ScottK 
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> i will slow a little
<nxvl> i will wait a bit until everyone is with me again
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> if you have questions ask them now
<nxvl> i have uploaded my changelog to pastebin
<nxvl> http://pastebin.ca/1001989
<nxvl> so you can check it clearly
<nxvl> are you already with me?
<nxvl> raise your hands if you have you changelog already edited: o/
<nxvl> < Syntux> QUESTION: do we have to delete the patches files or remove them  from certain file that list all patches?
<nxvl> Syntux: both
<nxvl> Syntux: we need to remove the line containing "glib-sharp-2.0-support.dpatch" from 00list
<nxvl> and remove the patch file from debian/patches
<nxvl> no one raise his hand :(
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> it seems that everyone is still downloading the packages
<nxvl> Syntux: yes, sorry about that :(
<nxvl> Syntux: i was expeting better broadband from the audience than mine
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> i will continue for now
<nxvl> if you have still problems downloading you can check at the logs after the session and ping me, i'm always online
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> so, why we have this o the changelog?
<nxvl> we have included this things
<nxvl> since the only changes we are keeping are the ones from the last merge.
<nxvl> Then is just a matter of generating the debdiff, reporting the bug asking for merge, upload the debdiff and ask for sponsorship.
<nxvl> Sometimes we are not keeping any ubuntu changes since all of them have been already included in debian, then we need to ask for a sync.
<nxvl> i have already report the bug and upload the debdiff
<nxvl> on Bug #224318
<nxvl> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beagle/+bug/224318
<nxvl> ScottK: i will apreciate if you sponsor it :D
<nxvl> so i was thinking on do another merge
<nxvl> but as everyone is still stuck on the first one
<nxvl> i will only answer questions
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> so, please try to finish the merge
<nxvl> and ask questions if you have some
<nxvl> < RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: do we have to be on Intrepid Ibex to do the merging?
<nxvl> RoAkSoAx: nop
<nxvl> RoAkSoAx: but it is helpfull to have a chroot environment
<nxvl> RoAkSoAx: i use pbuilder, but you can use whatever you want
<nxvl> < Gilou> QUESTION: what is the relationship between ubuntu & deb  developpers? What would happen if debian would take too long to  take your patch into account, would you just roll out your own,  and deal with a merge (or non merge) later once the patch is  committed (or not) in debian?
<nxvl> Gilou: we send our packages back to debian, to contribute to them
<nxvl> Gilou: also, not all our patches are used by DD, because the bug is only present on ubuntu, or they don't want that feature
<nxvl> Gilou: so, if the patch is not included on debian you just need to merge it on the next development circle
* nxvl changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Merging 101" - Nicolas ValcÃarcel
* nxvl changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Merging 101" - Nicolas Valcarcel
<nxvl> stani: done :D
<nxvl> Gilou: does that answers your question?
<nxvl> < Monika|K> Question: You write Change Maintainer to Ubuntu Mono Team ...  should that be MOTU Team?
<nxvl> Monika|K: not in this case, the maintainers of beagle are Mono Team
<nxvl> Monika|K: since they are the ones in charge of Mono packages
<nxvl> Monika|K: but in most cases it will we MOTU or Core Developers
<nxvl> Monika|K: but there are also specific cases in which a person is listed as Maintainer
<nxvl> < Monika|K> Question: What is beagle and what does it have to do with  Firefox?
<nxvl> Monika|K: beagle is a search engine
<nxvl> Monika|K: it an app that do files search on our system, it also finds firefox bookmarks
<nxvl> Monika|K: but that's a little OT
<nxvl> rZr: i have see those logs before, i'm not sure where they keep them
<nxvl> < Monika|K> Question: In what cases would a person be listed as  maintainer?
<nxvl> on ubuntu we don't use it
<nxvl> but there are cases in which the Debian Maintainer is also an Ubuntu Developer and he want's to still be the Maintainer of the package in ubuntu
<nxvl> or when the package are just synced
<nxvl> s/are/is
<nxvl> ScottK: isn't it?
<nxvl> did you have any last questions?
<nxvl> have you all merge the package?
<nxvl> if you merge the package raise your hands: o/
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> so as i'm getting out of time
<nxvl> just a few last words
<nxvl> please if you want to be involved on ubuntu, keep in mind that we depend on debian's work
<nxvl> and we need to be thankfull with DD
<nxvl> so if you have corrected a bug, try to check if it is also present in debian and send them the patch
<nxvl> also
<nxvl> you need to keep in mind that if someone helps you
<nxvl> you need to make 2 things:
<nxvl> 1) say thanks
<nxvl> 2) hug hime like this:
 * nxvl HUGS ScottK 
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> thanks to all for comming here
<nxvl> if you have problems you can ask in #ubuntu-motu
<nxvl> there is always good people around helping new contributors
<nxvl> and i hope to see you around
<nxvl> 14:01 < rZr> QUESTION: i would appreciate that LP can list rc  bugs thats are  in ubuntu and debian , is that planned ?
<nxvl> rZr: take a look at ubuntuwire
<nxvl> http://www.ubuntuwire.com
<nxvl> rZr: on qa you can find such things
<nxvl> is Celso already around?
<nxvl> cprov: it's moderated
<nxvl> Amaranth: can you give cprov voice
<nxvl> jcastro: or you
<nxvl> cprov: try now
<cprov> hey
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> now here is Celso
<cprov> there we go
<cprov> nxvl: thanks, very nice session.
<cprov> Hi, welcome to the another UbuntuOpenWeek session, during the next hour we will talk about Launchpad PPAs.
* nxvl changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Using Launchpad PPAs" - Celso Providelo
<cprov> I will paste the initial agenda for this session, feel free to suggest new topics in the -chat channel
<cprov> The initial agenda is:
<cprov>  * Roll call
<cprov>  * Documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/PPASystemOverview
<cprov>  * Q & A : use #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<cprov>  * Top 5 bug nomination: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bugs?field.tag=ppa
<cprov> so, let's start with the call:  who is here for the PPA session ?
<cprov> err, I guess you will have to answer in #$this-chat
<cprov> 12 and growing ...
<cprov> Documentation we already have is summarised in ï»¿ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/PPASystemOverview
<cprov> Everyone should go there and have a quick look, I've added new sections about Delete/Copy packages
<cprov> also about PPA dependencies.
<cprov> I will update that again after the session, if you have any contribution, please add it there.
<cprov> Once you've read that document you can star making question.
<cprov> Also, anyone interested in starting a PPA right now, be my guest. The publisher will run on :20 and :40 and the builders as faster than ever :)
<cprov> ï»¿Monika|K: Yeah, can you start with, like, what is it and what is it for?
<cprov> of course.
<cprov> PPA stads for Personal Package Archives
<cprov> After designing Soyuz to manage ubuntu archive (some could say it was dak reverse engineering)
<cprov> we decided to encapsulate all the services involved in it, in a way it could be useful for other individual or groups
<cprov> ï»¿phoenix24: How can I start my PPA ?
<cprov> PPA is one of the features provided for Launchpad users, any Launchpad user can activate a PPA for his account or team
<cprov> ï»¿QUESTION:  I'm not sure if I should use my name, or a project name for a PPA account, advice on selecting?
<cprov> it's really up to you, PPA will be attached to a launchpad user or team. You can have both.
<cprov> ï»¿progfou: I have one: how to build the packages for two distributions (say Gutsy and Hardy) from the same source ? or is-it just not the "Right Way"â¢ ?
<cprov> right, we have recently released Copy-packages feature for beta-testers (edge) it will be available for everyone thursday.
<cprov> it allows you to *copy* a source from one series to another (for a rebuild) and if you think the binaries will fit you can copy them too.
<cprov> see more information in the wiki page I mentioned above.
<cprov> ï»¿QUESTION: Do we have PPA for LoCal teams?
<cprov> not by default, activating a PPA requires a team admin to accept the PPA Terms of Service, available in http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart if you wonna check
<cprov> ï»¿pwnguin: QUESTION: will people ever be able to report bugs against an individual's ppa?
<cprov> pwnguin: not until July, this aspect is under discussion right now, many people think that filing bugs on PPA is misleading since the efforts done in PPA are intended to reach ubuntu.
<cprov> ï»¿claydoh: QUESTION: is it possible to have packages created for more than one distribution without needing to re-upload the same source package?
<cprov> claydoh: that is one of the use-cases for copy-ui feature that I've mentioned above.
<cprov> ï»¿Monika|K: Question: I still don't understand what it is and what it does.
<cprov> Monika|K: right, developers create source packages (in debian format)
<cprov> Monika|K: PPA (as Soyuz itself) process/verify the sources, publish then in a archive (archive.ubuntu.com), build publish its binaries  also in a.u.c so they can be mirrored and installed by users like us.
<cprov> ï»¿QUESTION: The Link to the Packaging Guide does not work: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/
<cprov> that's bad ... I will fix it later, sorry.
<cprov> ï»¿UESTION: Do packages need to be of sufficient quality for potential inclusion in Ubuntu, or could local builds be hosted on a PPA for, say, a corporate rollout?
<cprov> tï»¿oobuntu: I'm not sure I understood your question.
<cprov> toobuntu: anyway, the general answer is yes, ubuntu inclusion will be judge by MOTU. OTOH, you don't necessary have to aim ubuntu you can have your packages hosted in PPA as long as they are GPL (-like)
<cprov> ï»¿mfm: QUESTIOn Do I have to provide the Source in a special way for my PPA?
<cprov> mfm: no, nothing is special about PPA, it works exactly and Soyuz works for ubuntu PRIMARY archive. upload a proper debian source package via ftp using the well known debian/ubuntu dev-tools
<cprov> ï»¿rZr: QUESTION: when intrepid target will unfreeze, when the toolchains ready I expect ?
<cprov> rZr: it's not related to PPAs :)
<cprov> ï»¿progfou: QUESTION: is there a way to let PPA automaticaly get it's sources from a Launchpad project (say code.launchpad.net) ?
<cprov> progfou: there is a feature coming after July that will allow you to build source package straight from bzr branches hosted in Launchpad.
<cprov> rZr: oh, I see what you mean, but ubuntu release cycle is tied to PPA and vice versa, you can upload to intrepid PPA right now if want.
<cprov> ï»¿ScottK: QUESTION: Since Ubuntu derives from Debian Sid, it is often good to know how something works on Sid to enhance inter-distro collaboration.  Are there any plans to support PPA for Debian Unstable or Testing?
<cprov> ScottK: yes, there are plans in this area, importing debian archive frequently and maintaining up to date chroots for debian will be great, sync would be done entire inside Soyuz/Launchpad
<cprov> we will have news in this area soon.
<cprov> ï»¿ScottK: QUESTION: Currently it seems that the only place links to build logs can be found is in PPA failed to build mails.  Are there plans to expose build logs in the UI?
<cprov> ScottK: they are very well exposed in launchpad.net/people/+me/+archive/+builds
<cprov> ScottK: and each build their own page with more details.
<cprov> rZr: ï»¿QUESTION: I would appreciate that email alerts on failure can be disable ? is this planned too ?
<cprov> rZr: there is not bug filed for this, I thought it was fine. Feel free to add one (product soyuz, tag ppa)
<cprov> that's important to note, bugs about PPA feature requests, etc always use product 'soyuz' and the tag 'ppa'
<cprov> ï»¿morten: QUESTION: so after uploading the source, how can people access my package? they have to add a deb entry for it i guess? (in /etc/apt/sources.list)
<cprov> morten: sorry for ignoring your question.
<cprov> morten: well, 'access' is a very broad term, once it's uploaded the source can be viewed and downloaded from your PPA page.
<cprov> morten: in order to install the binaries built from your source they will have to include the deb entries for your PPA
<cprov> ï»¿rulus: QUESTION: Are there plans on 'merging' PPA and REVU services? I feel like these are kind of similar. One could subscribe in a 'REVU' team and upload a source package to it's PPA to get it reviewed. This would, among others, bring the advantage that PPA/Soyuz checks if the package builds first before valuable MOTU time is used.
<cprov> rulus: in the next month we will start storing debdiffs for all uploads, PPAs and primary archive and that will be another large step towards REVU features
<cprov> rulus: I'm not sure if PPA will replace REVU, since it has it's own context and have been used successfully for a long time
<cprov> surely PPA will incorporate REVU nice aspects and be used by MOTU to review packages in getting in ubuntu
<cprov> ï»¿progfou: QUESTION: once we have successfully build our packages with PPA, what's the next step to let them enter Universe (or is it just not the right course to ask for this?)
<cprov> progfou: entering in the MOTU review procedure, PPA doesn't replace it, just make it easier for all people involved.
<cprov> so, last 7 minutes, let's move on.
<cprov> Please add other questions at the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/PPASystemOverview
<cprov> Finally, Top 5 bug nomination: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bugs?field.tag=ppa
<cprov> There you will be able to find all bugs in the PPA system, check them before filling new ones
<cprov> Be sure the features you want are listed there
<cprov> And if you want and have time, blog about the top 5 features you would like to see released for PPAs, or the top 5 annoying bugs you would like to see fixed ASAP
<cprov> ï»¿rZr: about debian build ; this is filed  : https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/188564
<cprov> right, that's in my list too, I'd love to see debian PPAs running
<cprov> it would enforce the ubuntu/debian collaboration relationship mentioned in the last session.
<cprov> Anyway, push your ideas, blog about them, file bugs, come and talk on #launchpad. I will be more than happy to discuss them with you.
 * mathiaz waves at cprov 
<cprov> mathiaz: hey
<cprov> I'm late, sorry.
<mathiaz> cprov: np ;)
<cprov> thank you, guys
<mathiaz> so after the last two rather technical sessions about packaging, we'll step back a little bit and I'll take some time to introduce the Ubuntu Server Team.
<cprov> very good set of question :) you are all stars.
 * cprov stops stealing mathiaz time :)
<mathiaz> so that you can use all your knowledge about merging and PPA to improve server software in Ubuntu :)
<mathiaz> I'll talk about who we are, what we're doing, and how you can get involved with the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Ask your question in u-c-c and I'll answer them at the end of the session
<mathiaz> so who is the Ubuntu Server Team ?
<mathiaz> you can find most of the information on our wiki pages : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
<mathiaz> Most of the people involved in the server team share a common interest in server related software, such as http servers, mail servers or other services
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Intro to the Ubuntu Server Team" - Mathias Gug
<mathiaz> As an extension we tend also to deal with setups found in corporate environments, such as directtory services (ldap, AD), web services or network authentication
<mathiaz> Some of us are working for Canonical in the Server team, lead by Rick Clark
<mathiaz> (dendrobates on IRC). Others have services running on Ubuntu and are interested
<mathiaz> in fixing bugs.
<mathiaz> Regular contributors takes on important tasks and lead them to completion - som of them include (listed in alphabetical order):
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer - sommer - our documentation guru. He's taken the task to review and update the Server Guide. Thus he is in contact with the Documentation team.
<mathiaz> Ante KaramatiÄ - ivoks - another long time contributor to the Server Team. Also a member of MOTU, he has looked over the apache package, improved the bacula package and worked on SASL integration during the Hardy release Cycle.
<mathiaz> Neal McBurnett - nealmcb - he has multiple interest: documentation, virtualization. He started to contribute to the Ubuntu JeOS project and ubuntu-vm-builder project.
<mathiaz> Nicolas ValcÃ¡rcel - nxvl - lots of work in bug triagging and packaging. He is also involved in the Security team.
<mathiaz> Scott Kitterman - ScottK - main interest in mail services - if you're interested in postfix or clamav he is the man to talk to. He is also involved in the MOTU team.
<mathiaz> So you can see that we  are a diverse group that have different interests.
<mathiaz> We're also involved in other teams from the Ubuntu project. This is one of the caracteristic of the Server team:
<mathiaz> we all share a common interest in server technologies, but have differents skills. Thus being part of the team often means representing the Server Team in other areas of the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> Being a contributor to the server team can be taken under different roles:
<mathiaz> The helper answers questions on the ubuntu-server mailing list and the #ubuntu-server irc channel.
<mathiaz> Triagers dig into bugs the ubuntu-server LP team is subscribed to.  Our LP team is a bug contact for a list packages, such as samba, openldap, mysql or apache2.
<mathiaz> The current list of packages can be found here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs
<mathiaz>  A mailing list has been created to gather all the bugs related to the ubuntu-server team: ubuntu-server-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
<mathiaz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server-bugs
<mathiaz> Usually we decide to target our efforts for bug triagging to one or two package for a week and discuss the outcome of our triagging effort during our weekly meeting.
<mathiaz> This is a great way to start with the LP bug tracker and doesn't require any knowledge of programming languages.
<mathiaz> We're working closely with the BugSquad team - triaggers participate on the bugsquad mailint lists.
<mathiaz> And once in a while with have the honor of having our own HugDay where the whole bug triagger community helps us!
<mathiaz> The BugSquad Team has its own wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/
<mathiaz> Once bugs have been triagged, it's time to fix them. This is when the packagers come into the game. This role requires an interest in packaging.
<mathiaz>  We maintain a list of bugs that are easy too fix:
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+mentoring
<mathiaz> These fixes can make their way easily into the ubuntu repositories via the sponsorship process
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<mathiaz> As we're at the beginning of a release cycle, we're focusing on Merging packages from Debian unstable into ubuntu intrepid repositories.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging for an overview
<mathiaz> I think that nxvl covered this process in-depth two sessions ago
<mathiaz> Now is probably to best time to get started in packaging.
<mathiaz> Doing work on the packaging front leads to a close a collaboration with the MOTU team and is a great way to gain experience to become a MOTU.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<mathiaz> Another role that kicks in on a regular schedule are the testers.
<mathiaz> This is what we've been doing most of the last weeks, preparing for the release
<mathiaz> New features and new packages needs to be tested before released for wide spread consumption.
<mathiaz> So we organize test plans.
<mathiaz> For example likewise-open is available in hardy to help AD integration.
<mathiaz> however there are multiple AD setups out there. So we'll setup a test plan to keep track of the results.
<mathiaz> If you have access to an AD domain, installing ubuntu and testing you can join the domain with likewise-open is an easy way to contribute to the Server Team right now.
<mathiaz> All of this work is coordinated with the Ubuntu QA Team - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<mathiaz> Testers are taking an important role when we're about to ship a new milestone or release.
<mathiaz>  We're responsible for ensuring that the ubuntu-server isos are working correctly, which involves performing a dozen of tests for two isos.
<mathiaz> We use the isotesting tracker from the QA team to track the results. The more testers we have, the less tests each of us has to do and results are posted faster.
<mathiaz> Server hardware support is another area where testing is welcome.
<mathiaz> We're trying to make sure that ubuntu can used on the main server hardware, so if you have access to such hardware, popping a cd into the machine, installing a standard ubuntu server and reporting that whether it has successfully installed or failed is an easy way to contribute to the server team.
<mathiaz> Beside testing a new feature, documenting it is also needed.
<mathiaz> That's the role of the Documentors.
<mathiaz> Browsing the ubuntu-server mailing list archive, lurking in the #ubuntu-server irc channel or going through the forum posts shows patterns in user's questions.
<mathiaz> Recurring themes are identified and turned into documentation.
<mathiaz> A wiki page in the community section of help.ubuntu.com is first created.
<mathiaz>  Once the quality has improved, a new section is added to the server guide.
<mathiaz> All this work is undertaken by the Documentors of the Server Team.
<mathiaz>  Collaboration with the Documentation team is done on a daily basis to achieve consistency with other help resources.
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer leads the update and review of the Ubuntu Server guide.
<mathiaz> All of the documentation is maintained in a bzr tree - helping Adam will introduce you to docbook and distributed versioning with bazaar.
<mathiaz> There is also the option to go over server related wiki pages on the community help pages. A good starting point is the Server page that has pointers to lots of howtos.
<mathiaz> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers
<mathiaz> The last role in the Server Team as the Developpers
<mathiaz> they develop new features, usually specified during the Ubuntu Developer Summit that takes place at the begining of each release cycle.
<mathiaz> Tracked by a blueprint we have around 3 months to get a new feature into Ubuntu.
<mathiaz> For hardy, virtualization, iscsi and windows integration have been some of the features integrated.
<mathiaz> Now that the release cycle for Intrepid is opened, we've started to gather requirements to develop new features for the next version of Ubuntu released in October this year.
<mathiaz> So if you want something integrated or improved in Ubuntu, now is the best time to make your voice heard.
<mathiaz> The ServerTeam idea pool is a wiki page where we track what we could work on.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/IdeaPool
<mathiaz> As you can see, contributing to the Server Team can be undertaken in more than one way. It usually involves a lot of interaction with other teams from the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> It's also a good way to show your contribution to Ubuntu and helps in getting Ubuntu membership.
<mathiaz> The GettingInvolved page gives an overview of the roles I've talked about above
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<mathiaz> So - how do we work ?
<mathiaz> We track our progress on the Roadmap and meet once a week to discuss outstanding issues.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> We use the ubuntu-server mailing and #ubuntu-server to coordinate our activities, discuss policy change in the team.
<mathiaz> How to join the Server Team and start contributing ?
<mathiaz> Joining the ubuntu-server team on LP is simple as subscribing to the ubuntu-server mailing list and applying for membership on LP.
<mathiaz> The ubuntu-server team is one of the easiest way to start getting involved in Ubuntu development.
<mathiaz> If you already know which role you'd like to contribute as, you can find a list of tasks in the Roadmap. Don't hesitate to ask one of the team members involved in your area of interest.
<mathiaz> Most of the information related to the ServerTeam can be found in the ServerTeam wiki pages - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
<mathiaz> If you're overwhelmed by all the available information and you're lost, come talk to me. I'll help get out of the mist and we'll find a way you can get involved in the Server Team.
<mathiaz> I'll answer the questions from u-c-c now
<mathiaz> 16:09 < rZr> QUESTION: can all server's packages be installed on desktop and vice versa ? (i am thinking about virtualisation ones)
<mathiaz> Yes - server is a sub set of the desktop packages
<mathiaz> the difference between server and desktop is one the isos mainly
<mathiaz> the packages are coming from the same archive
<mathiaz> -server isos install the ubuntu-standard preseed, and -desktop isos install the ubuntu-desktop preseed
<mathiaz> 16:15 < melter> QUESTION: when i'm configuring the network during installation, what hostname do i enter if it's dynamically assigned by the dhcp server?
<mathiaz> you can choose whatever you want - it should be overriden at boot time.
<mathiaz> I'd add that #ubuntu-server is a great place to ask these kind of questions - you can find valuable people in there.
<mathiaz> 16:35 < maanskyn> QUESTION: Do you see certification (of ISV offerings and by ISVs) as critical to enterprise adoption? Red Hat and Novell seem to focus on this a lot/
<mathiaz> Canonical offers ways for ISV to certify their application on Ubuntu
<mathiaz> Canonical also has a hardware certification program for OEMs.
<mathiaz> There is also the Ubuntu Certified Engineer available from LPI.
<mathiaz> So certifications are available in a number of forms and are important for businesses.
<mathiaz> 16:35 < rlaager> QUESTION: Why is the at package deprecated? Does the cron package provide an at command?
<mathiaz> I'm not sure that the at package is deprecated - it may have been replaced by another package.
<mathiaz> cron doesn't provide an at command though - these two programs have different purposes.
<mathiaz> 16:37 < Syntux> QUESTION: Any plans for Ubuntu Server Admin Cert? something like the UCP
<mathiaz> I'm not sure what you refer to Ubuntu Server Admin Cert - if it's a web interface to remotely administer a server, e-box is available in universe
<mathiaz> 16:38 < furicle> QUESTION:  Any plans for a 'sucess stories' page - real people showing off real server installs?
<mathiaz> the server edition section of ubuntu.com has been revamped during the hardy release cycle - there may be use cases there now.
<mathiaz> 16:39 < King_Creole> QUESTION: Any chance we will see Oracle (DB, App server) running on Ubuntu in the near future with official certification from Oracle?
<mathiaz> That would be great - but it's more up to Oracle to do it.
<mathiaz> 16:40 < KevinS> QUESTION: Any suggested guides on how to best make use of the new install options (Mail, DNS etc.)?
<mathiaz> I'd point out the Ubuntu Server Guide
<mathiaz> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/index.html
<mathiaz> 16:40 < rZr> QUESTION: Any idea on how to get support from software vendors (openor closedsource) who only support one version of linux distro (let say deadrat)
<mathiaz> Bug them - and ask them to support ubuntu
<mathiaz> 16:40 < rlaager> QUESTION: Regarding RubyOnRails, is there a plan to deal with packaging things that are currently distributed as gems?
<mathiaz> There was some discussion during last UDS about ruby and rails - however there wasn't enough knowledge about this area with the attendees
<mathiaz> A spec was written up - but it didn't make it in time for hardy
<mathiaz> any help in that area is welcome !
<mathiaz> A link to case studies: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/
<mathiaz> the Ruby on Rails specification: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RubyOnRailsStack
<mathiaz> 16:54 < RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: Is there going to be a Ubuntu Server Course (Like the recently launched Desktop course on shop.canonical.com)
<mathiaz> Not that I know of. May be worth mentionning on the ubuntu-training mailing list.
<mathiaz> So I think I'm running out of time
<mathiaz> I haven't answered all the questions posted in u-c-c
<mathiaz> Stop by #ubuntu-server and I'm glad to give you answers there
<jcastro> thanks mathiaz!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Ubuntu Security Team" - Kees Cook
 * mathiaz waves at kees 
<jcastro> you're up kees!
<kees> thanks jcastro :)
<kees> Welcome everyone!  This is going to be a quick intro to how the Security Team operates within Ubuntu
<kees> the main entry-point for information about the team is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
<kees> our wiki page is still a big young, so pardon the lack of details in the FAQ and KnowledgeBase areas.
<kees> I'm hoping we might be able to populate some of the FAQ with today's intro's questions.  :)
<kees> The most active subteams within the Security Team is "ubuntu-security" and "motu-swat"
<kees> when there are updates that need to happen, these two teams are the ones handling it usually.
<kees> in general, our "update procedure" is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
<kees> we focus on fixing "CVE"s in published ubuntu releases
<kees> a CVE is basically a number identifying a flaw in software that has security implications
<kees> the central collection of CVEs here: http://cve.mitre.org/
<kees> since CVEs are global identifiers, they cover software (and hardware) from any vendor in the world -- only some CVEs apply to Ubuntu software.
<kees> (CVE stands for Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures)
<kees> the first step to fixing security problems in Ubuntu is keeping up to date with new CVEs, and checking to see in Ubuntu is affected.
<kees> to help coordinate between teams and people, we have an ubuntu-specific reponsitory for tracking CVEs: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/ubuntu-cve-tracker/master
<kees> this is a bzr branch, with details about every CVE that has been issued (most are flagged "ignore" since they apply to unpackaged software, different vendors like Apple or Microsoft, etc)
<kees> 21:06 < firefly2442> QUESTION: On average, how long does it take from a vulnerability being discovered to an updated DEB file being available?  Does
<kees>                      this change much if the issue is upstream?
<kees> the speed of update depends greatly on the severity of the issue.
<kees> once CVEs have been identified, the team will prioritize them, and start either tracking down patches or making our own.
<kees> some CVEs are private for a while while upstream (and the vendors) try to figure out solutions.  This is called an "embargoed" issue.
<kees> the ubuntu tracker only shows public CVEs, since none of the vendors are allowed to discuss embargoed issues until they reach their "coordinated release date"
<kees> but, to answer firefly2442's question, I would say roughly under a few days for high-priority issues (these issues tend to start embargoed, so there is plenty of time to fix them before they're public)
<kees> under a month for medium issues, and "low" issues can be pretty different.
<kees> some of the URLs for more information that I'm listing here can also be found in our KnowledgeBase: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KnowledgeBase
<kees> once the teams get issues fixed, then they test them, and finally publish the fixes.
<kees> presently, security updates for main/restricted packages (mostly handled by "ubuntu-security") get "Ubuntu Security Notices" (USNs) published
<kees> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/  there is a mailing list for this as well: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/
<kees> besides the two teams handling security updates, we also have a team dedicated to providing better security globally to Ubuntu.  this is the "ubuntu-hardened" team.  It started very SELinux-centric, but has grown to include people interested in AppArmor and other hardening techniques
<kees> we also have a "white hat" team ("ubuntu-whitehat") that is dedicated to hunting down new security issues.  it is young, but growing up nicely.
<kees> since all of the teams are rather small, we still use a single IRC channel (#ubuntu-hardened) and a single mailing list (ubuntu-hardened)
<kees> 21:15 < pschulz01> QUESTION: What proportion of CVE's get fixed prior to the embargo date?
<kees> I don't have specific numbers, but in general, if a CVE is embargoed, and high priority, it is fixed before the embargo.  The embargo dates are chosen to help all the vendors get their fixes ready.
<kees> so, I would say it is close to 100%.
<kees> 21:13 < ubuntu_demon> Question : Is Ubuntu using salted md5 passwords or something else ?
<kees> yes, the current default for /etc/shadow is salted md5.  (see "man shadow")
<kees> Should sha-512 be used or something stronger ?
<kees> I wouldn't be against it, but it would take a certain amount of coordination.
<kees> salted md5 is still out of reach for even well organized collaborative cracking efforts.
<kees> 21:13 < RzR> QUESTION: what kind of tools do you recommend to developpers to achieve better quality ? i am think about valgrind etc
<kees> valgrind is an excellent tool for locating memory corruption.
<kees> for compiled programs, I tend to believe in: -Wall -Werror -Wformat -Wformat-security -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -O2
<kees> hm, and -Wl,-z,relro
<kees> these kinds of hardening details can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper
<kees> beyond that, avoiding common pit-falls (named files in /tmp, etc) is a good idea.  I will add a "best practices" checklist to the KnowledgeBase
<kees> 21:19 < ubuntu_demon> Question : Are you aware of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UnsafeDefaults ? Should any of these things be changed by
<kees>                       default ?
<kees> I wasn't personally aware of that page, but I was hoping to review a bunch of the defaults in Ubuntu now that the LTS is out the door.
<kees> can someone link to that page from the roadmap: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap ?
<kees> 21:20 < ubuntu_demon> Question : What kind of coordination would be needed to use SHA-512 ?
<kees> I'm not 100% sure, but generally making sure there is clean backward compatibility when moving to it, discussing it with upstream glibc, etc.
<kees> 21:20 < ubuntu_demon> Question : What about cold boot attacks against Ubuntu's disk encryption ? Can they be prevented somehow ?
<kees> The cold-boot stuff is pretty extreme.  Since there tend to be more pressing matters to investigate, this hasn't really been addressed very much yet.
<kees> 21:21 < ubuntu_demon> Question : What about memory protection ? Are ASLR and similar techniques completely implemented or are there still some parts
<kees>                       missing ?
<kees> 8.04 has full memory protection available in the kernel (\o/).
<kees> the "last piece" of ASLR is to get programs compiled to take advantage of the executable-image-ASLR
<kees> stack and libs (and mmap) happen automatically.
<kees> 8.10 will have heap (brk) ASLR separate from the exec ASLR, which will be nice too.
<kees> 21:21 < ubuntu_demon> Question : What about wrapping web-browsers in apparmor ?
<kees> I think this is a good idea, but it's not very trivial.
<kees> I am (and the rest of the ubuntu-hardened team is) very interested in getting more AppArmor profiles (and SELinux policies) written to cover more of our common use-cases
<kees> we've been slowly adding them, and there was a strong push to get "by-default" profiles active for a number of common server services, done by the server team.  We're hoping to help the desktop team do the same for various network-facing tools like the browsers.
<kees> 21:27 < toobuntu> QUESTION: SAK implementation currently closes everything that has /dev/console open, including entire tty7 (X), while Windows has
<kees>                   the option to require Ctrl-Alt-Del prior to entering a log on password.  What would be involved to implement something like this
<kees>                   for Ubuntu?
<kees> This is a good idea -- adding it to the Roadmap would be appreciated.
<kees> SAK: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-hardy.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/SAK.txt;hb=HEAD
<kees> as a quick aside to the "best practices" question earlier, Debian and Ubuntu have been coordinating to create a "hardening-wrapper" tool that is used as a Build-Dep for packages.
<kees> (full disclosure: I wrote it)
<kees> some details are here: http://wiki.debian.org/Hardening and http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/01/msg00006.html
<kees> (both related to the earlier URL https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper)
<kees> so that's the quick over-view -- I've clearly started answering questions already.  :)
<kees> for people interested in getting involved, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved
<kees> that covers the various subteams, and what each does.  We're low on people, so we'd love to have people join to help get things fixed and help test.  :)
<kees> 21:36 < Azag> I am saying that, why a encrypted password can't be stolen
<kees> presently, encrypted passwords are handled by specially-privileges processes.  As such, regular users do not have access to the process or the files they interact with
<kees> for example /etc/shadow is not world-readable, and the various PAM helpers need to be run with elevated privileges to read it
<kees> we've got a lot of time left, but I appear to be the last session for today.  :)
<kees> If anyone has other questions, please feel free to join #ubuntu-hardened or to ask on the ubuntu-hardened mailing list.
<kees> 21:40 < nealmcb> QUESTION: What good options are there (now or planned) for better authentication and authorization in Ubuntu?
<kees> 21:40 < nealmcb> (than passwords)
<kees> there have been discussions about fingerprint readers, and other "something you have" style authentications.  at present, passwords seem to remain the standard
<kees> 21:41 < Rudd-O> QUESTION: addressing rootkits and the like, what kinds of tools are there available to aid in detection and cleanup, and how are
<kees>                 they being integrated into ubuntu?
<kees> kernel-level things have been added in 8.04 to make rootkits harder to get installed (kernel memory protections)
<kees> as for detection and cleanup, most of the tools I know of are in the universe repository (chkrootkit, rkhunter, unhide)
<kees> luckily, rootkits are becoming more and more rare.
<kees> 21:48 < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION : You are saying that md5 salted passwords are adequate for now but do you think this will stay be the case for the next five years ? (because Hardy will be supported for five years)
<kees> barring extreme breaks in the hashing function, md5 will probably be okay.  it tends to be less of an issue since only root has access to the file to begin with.  leaving salted md5 in the clear certainly makes me nervous.
<kees> but, since we will likely have experience converting to the next cool hashing function, we'll be able to apply that to LTS as well, if it's needed.
<kees> any missed questions?
<kees> 21:53 < ZehRique> QUESTION: Concerning the nealmcb question, what about creating an authentication process like Brazilian banks, where the password is typed with mouse clicks on a java applet which shows the numbers and letters randomly positioned on the screen, to difficult some kind of password steal?
<kees> there is no reason it can't be done for the gdm/kdm login screen -- it just requires someone to write it.  :)
<kees> okay, thanks for listening to the session!  feel free to catch me on IRC if you think of anything else to ask.  :)  thanks!
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> thanks everyone for coming!
<jcastro> The sessions begin again at 1500UTC tomorrow
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-30
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Sessions start at 15:00 UTC
<jcastro> cody-somerville: about ready to start?
<cody-somerville> Almost. :)
<jcastro> perfect
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Xubuntu" - Cody Summerville
<jcastro> Ok, welcome back everyone
<jcastro> This morning we have Cody Somerville who will be discussing Xubuntu
<jcastro> cody-somerville: take it away!
<cody-somerville> Hello everyone
<cody-somerville> Thank you for coming to attend the Xubuntu Open Week session.
<cody-somerville> My name is Cody Somerville and I'm the current Xubuntu team leader.
<cody-somerville> So, what is Xubuntu? I'm sure a lot of us know already but for those of that don't, Xubuntu is an official derivative of Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> As an official derivative, Xubuntu uses the same archive as Ubuntu does offering you all the same packages.
<cody-somerville> The difference between Xubuntu and Ubuntu is the set of packages that are installed by default.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu uses the Xfce4 desktop environment which prides its self on being light weight and fast while remaining user friendly.
<cody-somerville> The motto of Xfce is "... and everything goes faster!". and thats exactly the comment we often receive from users.
<cody-somerville> When you first load up Xubuntu, you'll notice it looks very much like Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> You still have the two panels, one at the top and one at the bottom. An applications menu in the upper left corner. System tray in the upper right corner. etc.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu has often been dubbed the "faster Ubuntu" because we've been able to provide a faster desktop experience without compromising usability or sacrificing too many features.
<cody-somerville> In Xubuntu 8.04, which as you know was released last week, includes the latest release of Xfce4 - Xfce4 4.4.2.
<cody-somerville> You can find more information about Xfce specifically at the Xfce website located at http://xfce.org
<cody-somerville> Does anyone have any questions about what Xubuntu *is*, what Xfce4 *is*, or what makes Xubuntu different from Ubuntu?
<cody-somerville> <toobuntu> QUESTION: A lot of users who want a fast, yet easy to use system may be torn between Xubuntu and Fluxbuntu.  Would you comment on the resource use of Xubuntu compared to Fluxbuntu?
<cody-somerville> Good question.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu is not as light as Fluxbuntu. Xubuntu and Fluxbuntu, although both focus on being light-weight, do serve different purposes. Each project has their own intended audience.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu, I think, is a happy medium between Fluxbuntu and Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> Fluxbuntu is more appropriate for machines that are very low on resources where as Xubuntu is better suited for computers in the last decade - give or take a few years.
<cody-somerville> Does that answer your question? :)
<cody-somerville> QUESTION: can you suggest tools to benchmark xfce performance mem footprint etc ? then we'll can compare to some other desktop manager ?
<cody-somerville> That was from RzR.
<cody-somerville> RzR, I can't suggest any tools at this time but benchmarking is an initiative that I hope to have in place for Intrepid. Intrepid will, hopefully, be the first release of Xubuntu that actually makes a calculated and scientific like effort to improve performance.
<cody-somerville> <rubicon_> QUESTION: Xubuntu looks just like a lightweight clone of Ubuntu. Is this intended? I mean, Xfce4 could be very unique but instead, it look just like GNOME.
<cody-somerville> rubicon_, Yes it is intentionally. We wanted Xubuntu to be as easy to use as possible and we feel that the current setup is accomplishing just that. However, I'm sure there will be discussion (as there always is) for Intrepid of changing it up a bit and maybe someone will present a compelling enough argument and we'll do just that.
<cody-somerville> <djf_jeff> QUESTION: Does xbuntu receive the same support as ubuntu for patches, updates, etc?
<cody-somerville> djf_jeff, Commercial support for Xubuntu through Canonical does not currently exist. However, Xubuntu receives the same types of support from the community.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu does receive security updates, patches, etc. but it is not guaranteed by Canonical like Ubuntu is.
<cody-somerville> <jaredbuck> QUESTION: Does the xubuntu interface get updated regularly? KDE just came out with version 4 and it's entirely different from version 3.
<cody-somerville> jaredbuck, There are currently no radical plans to change the Xfce4 interface.
<cody-somerville> <Lardarse> QUESTION: Is there anything (apart from lightweightedness) that Xfce offers that KDE or GNOME don't?
<cody-somerville> Yes!
<cody-somerville> Thunar is an amazing file manager/browser. I've fell completely in love with it.
<cody-somerville> Although it doesn't offer all the features Nautalius does yet, it is fast, friendly, and powerful.
<cody-somerville> And it doesn't stop there either. :)
<cody-somerville> For example, Xfce4 has an excellent built in compositor that is extremely fast.
<cody-somerville> Check out Xubuntu and I'm sure you'll see the differences :)
<cody-somerville> IdleOne> QUESTION: I am a gnome user ( ubuntu default ) and am wondering why can't gnome be made lighter so it runs as quickly as xubuntu or fluxbuntu? this way the xubuntu resources could be dedicated to Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> IdleOne, Gnome has been making strives to become more "light weight" and they're doing a good job. However, target audience has a lot to do with just how light weight developers of a project will want to go.
<cody-somerville> Gnome and Xfce4 each have their own target audience.
<cody-somerville> Tricky question but a good one. However, you should know that when people contribute to Xubuntu they are also contributing to Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> If you'll excuse me, I'll be right back. :)
<cody-somerville> Sorry about that, I just happen to be at work :)
<cody-somerville> I'm going to move forward with my presentation now and I'll answer some more questions in a bit.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu is a relatively small project compared to Ubuntu when looking at the number of active contributors.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu has, in clearer terms, less manpower than Ubuntu does. Although Xubuntu stands on the shoulders of Ubuntu, Xubuntu still needs people who are directly interested in it!
<cody-somerville> The project's small size is a benefit, IMHO, to those who are interested in getting involved in *buntu.
<cody-somerville> If you were to decide to get involved with Xubuntu today, I think you'd find that you'd get more one on one time from its current set of contributors making it easier for you to get moving at your own pace.
<cody-somerville> It also means that there is room for hopeful contributors to grow into different leadership positions within the Xubuntu community.
<cody-somerville> I also like to think we're a fun, enjoyable group of people to be around. I know I've built a number of friendships through working on Xubuntu. Although thats not unique to Xubuntu, it is true that sometimes people get frustrated, confused, or disorientated because they're never sure who they need to talk to or the right person to ping.
<cody-somerville> For those who are developer bound, this means that you'll be able to expedite your journey by more easily building a repertoire with your Xubuntu mentor/sponsor.
<cody-somerville> So, why not get involved in Xubuntu? It is fun, exciting, easy, and enjoyable with lots of opportunity. I encourage you all to consider! :)
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu 8.10
<cody-somerville> Our goals for the next release, Intrepid, are to make Xubuntu faster, more usable, and finally include a few extra features people have been asking for.
<cody-somerville> For example, one feature that is being considered for inclusion is the ability to browse samba networks in Thunar.
<cody-somerville> Another exciting piece of news for Xubuntu is that Xfce has decided to move to a time based release schedule and has currently their next release planned in time for Xubuntu 8.10 to include it.
<cody-somerville> If the rumours and whispering is true, Xubuntu 8.10 will hopefully include Xfce 4.6 which will address a number of long standing issues such as the menu editor.
<cody-somerville> Other rumours include a much improved xfce4 panel :)
<cody-somerville> I think we'll also see a number of sneaky memory leaks squashed making Xfce4 perform even better :)
<cody-somerville> Another feature being discussed specifically for Xubuntu is improving Xubuntu power management features.
<cody-somerville> Important for laptop users. :)
<cody-somerville> What sort of features would you guys like to see in Xubuntu 8.10? :)
<cody-somerville> neenaoffline, We already ship Ristretto in Ubutnu 8.04
<cody-somerville> neenaoffline, However, I've heard some disturbing bug reports about Ristretto's memory use so we'll be re-evaluating its inclusion in Intrepid.
<cody-somerville> To start the conclusion of my presentation here today, I'd like to once again encourage you all to consider getting involved in Xubuntu.
<cody-somerville> I think you'll find that Xubuntu is fast, sharp, responsive -- it provides a good desktop to get work done in.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu 8.04 is  reported to be the fastest Xubuntu yet and we intend to continue that trend with Intrepid.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu as a project is growing, developing, and maturing. Now is an excellent time to get involved.
<cody-somerville> For more information about Xubuntu, you can visit http://xubuntu.org and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu
<cody-somerville> You're welcome to join us in #xubuntu-devel where we discuss and coordinate Xubuntu efforts.
<cody-somerville> To download Xubuntu, visit http://xubuntu.org/get
<cody-somerville> I'll now answer any last questions before I hand things back over to jcastro.
<cody-somerville> <neenaoffline> yes, but what if I want a GNOME app while using XFCE ?
<cody-somerville> You can run both Gnome and KDE applications in Xfce.
<cody-somerville> <tech0007> will i see human theme window when i open a gnome program while inside xfce or not?
<cody-somerville> No, the windows will be themed the same.
<cody-somerville> However, KDE applications will still look QTish.
<cody-somerville> Alright. Thanks everyone!
<cody-somerville> I hope to see you in #xubuntu-devel
<jcastro> thanks cody-somerville!
<cody-somerville> We also have a mailing list at http://lists.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-devel
 * cody-somerville cheers.
<cody-somerville> \o/
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Community Q+A" - Jono Bacon
<jcastro> ok every, Community Q+A with Jono Bacon is next!
<jono> hello all :)
<jono> :)
<jono> ok, this session is totally driven by Q+A about anything you would like to know about the Ubuntu community, or myself
<jono> everyone should post questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and include QUESTION at the start of the line
<jcastro> QUESTION: How many Ubuntu + Kubuntu + Edubuntu installations exit worldwide now?
<jcastro> he means "exists"
<jono> sorry, one second
<jono> back
<jono> sorry about that
<jono> its impossibly difficult to tell the number of installations, Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Edubuntu are free software, so anyone could install it on any mahcine
<jono> machine
<jono> so its difficult to give decent figures
<jono> we have got millions of users all over the world though, thats for sure
<jcastro> QUESTION: jono, how'd you get started in Ubuntu?  What made you get involved with it?
<jono> I have been an Ubuntu user from the early days, and had an interest in it when it was just a rumour
<jono> I then became an avid user, and co-wrote the Official Ubuntu Book
<jono> at the time I was working for OpenAdvantage - a government funded project to spread Open Source in the UK, and heard about the job
<jono> so I applied and after a bunch of interviews got it :)
<jono> the thing I loved about Ubuntu was that it was doing something I had talked about for years - taking Debian and making it suitable for everyone
<jono> I also really liked the strong commitment to community - it seemed a very pure approach, something which I think is the right thing to do
<jcastro> QUESTION: There are a few mentions about the "Community Council" in the mailing lists and on the wiki, but I can't find  anything about this council. Who is on it, and can you provide more information about it?
<jono> the Community Council is the highest governing body in the Ubuntu community
<jono> it approves and defines changes in how we govern our community
<jono> you can read more about it at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/council - that page also says who is on it
<jono> we have a diverse council, and most of the  members don't work for Canonical
<jcastro> < sommer> QUESTION: what is the process for membership, now that the Community Council doesn't handle that, are the local  "councils" setup?
<jono> sommer: we have been working on a change to how membership is approved, and it is nearly complete
<jono> beforehand membership was approved by the Community Council, and it resulted in very very long CC sessions
<jono> with so many people wanting to become members, we have set up three localised membership boards
<jono> in the Americas, Australasia and Europe
<jono> each board has around 10 people on it who will judge membership for people in that particular region
<jono> the boards have been assigned, approved by the CC, the documentation is written and are about to be announced and put in place
<jcastro> < dalejefferson> ï»¿QUESTION: what would you like to see in Intrepid?
<jono> I would love to see Intrepid focus more on a different and strong UI
<jono> I would love to see new UI components
<jono> and see the entire interface become sleeker - such as getting rid of modeline changes when booting
<jcastro> < artir_> QUESTION:whats the state of Jokosher?
<jono> hehe :)
<jono> artir_: Jokosher is a project I was deeply involved in, but have not been able to contribute to due to time - I am pretty busy with my Ubuntu work, my music and my personal life
<jono> its an incredible project and literally just needs a few bug fixes to the Gstreamer code in there and it will be ready to roll
<jono> so if anyone wants to help out, let me know :)
<jcastro> < RzR> jono: QUESTION: can you give resources about "bridges between" communities, I know about utnubu(debian) but I bet everyone  will win by interconnecting communities, isnt it ?
<jono> RzR: sure
<jono> I think its always important to have strong connections between different communities
<jono> we are all together in the same fishpond, and many of our processes and workflows are connected and related
<jono> in terms of social connections, I think its also important to ensure that all communities have good connections to each other - it helps identify new and interesting projects and collaborations to work on
<jono> part of the plan for my team is to help define these connections between Ubuntu and upstream, and  this is something that jcastro works on - he works with upstream projects
<jono> we approach this not only from a social level, but from an engineering level - seeing how we can match what we do and achieve interesting things
<jcastro> < nosrednaekim> QUESTION: you say different and stronger UI ... does this mean KDE4 ?
<jono> nosrednaekim: nope - Kubuntu does an excellent job with KDE4
<jono> I am talking about thematic changes, artwork, conceptual changes to common elements such as login, user switching, virtual desktop switching etc - I essentially mean an interesting merging of GNOME, Compiz, and lots of bits of integration
<jono> I am also interested in changes to the model - people as topic level objects is an interesting approach
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Will you be writing the Official Ubuntu Book 3rd Edition this year? And will it be based on 8.04?
<jono> mybunche: I won't be contributing new content to the 3rd Edition of the Official Ubuntu Book - I just don't have the time these days, and I imagine it will be based around 8.04
<jcastro> < artir_> QUESTION: Why is your beard so cool? XD
<jono> artir_: haha
<jono> well I think its cool, not sure everyone would agree :)
<jono> its been through a lot of changes too - used to be fairly small but long, then small and less long, and now a thin strip
<jono> but it feels so bouncy and manageable :P
<jcastro> < dalejefferson> ï»¿QUESTION: Follow up: Would you like to see a simpler interface, ie a easy mode for non power users (like the EEEPC
<jono> dalejefferson: in my mind, the default Ubuntu interface should be suitable for non-power users - I am not keen on the idea of attaching different interfaces to different levels of skill - it makes people who use the simpler interfaces feel stupid - I think we can have one, unified interface that is suitable for all users - simple enough for new users and powerful and effective enough for power users :)
<jcastro> < bobbo_> QUESTION: You dont seem to have much spare time these days, are you going to keep LugRadio going?
<jono> bobbo_: yeah, things have been something of a rollercoaster in my life in the last year, both professionally and personally, and I am pretty much always on the go
<jono> I have no plans of leaving LugRadio right now
<jcastro> < toobuntu> ï»¿QUESTION: "people as topic level objects is an interesting approach" Would you elaborate on this?
<jono> toobuntu: sure
<jono> the concept is basically that people represent an element in your interface
<jono> there are lots of things you can do with people - email them, IM them, get things from them, send them things, learn about what they are doing, get their help etc
<jono> much of what we do on computers today is about communicating with people about different things and achieving certain goals
<jcastro> http://live.gnome.org/Soylent has more information on people-centric stuff
<jono> I like the idea of this and I like the idea of how we can achieve this in Ubuntu
<jcastro> < RzR> jono: QUESTION: this may be offtopic , but I was wondering if FLOSS communities are fully dependent of the internet ? any  feedback from the unconnected world ?
<jono> RzR: I think they largely are right now, the Internet is the mechanism in which we flow ideas and things that we work on in our community
<jono> I love the fact that we are so connected, and have contributors all over the world - just this channel will have people from a huge range of countries in it - but it is a huge problem that so many people are disconnected based upon where they are living
<jono> I am just not sure what the solution to that problem is
<jcastro> < d33d> QUESTION: What technologies do you focus on when moving to a "better Ubuntu"...meaning, things like social networking, new  hardware, how do those drive the developement in a "better Ubuntu"?
<jono> d33d: indeed - social networking, better hardware support, ease of use, compatibility etc
<jono> we want to ensure Ubuntu "just works" on every level, hardware, social, task-based...everything
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: Why well develop applications from older applications are whipped out in the new version and replaced with  other with no functionality (nm, Screen&Graphics)?
<jono> DoruHush: I don't understand the question, sorry
<jcastro> < jerichokb> QUESTION: as Ubuntu spreads and the user base become much larger - for instance the french police force adopting  ubuntu, iirc - do you envisage the community growing at the same rate, or slower/faster?
<jono> jerichokb: sure, I expect the community will grow in tandem with the user base - the user base is the community to a large degree, and we need to ensure that our community scales and accomodates this new growth
<jono> our community is going to continue to get bigger and bigger, thats for sure
<jono> brb, 2 mins
<jono> back
<jono> sorry about that
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: What mentoring means to community and who does it?
<jono> DoruHush: mentoring is an important part in a community - and it essentially mean helping people to be productive
<jono> we try to encourage as much mentoring as possible, in all parts of the project
<jono> you can see it in MOTU, LoCo Teams, and else where
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Are thoughts on moving to a default 2 CD image? More room to play with so-to-speak. I feel that the size of a  1 CD image is restrictive for Ubuntu and maybe pushing some users away because their install don't work.
<jono> mybunche: I disagree, I think the one-cd approach is one of our biggest assets - people can get one CD and install full Operating System
<jono> we make easy for people to download additional functionality, so I think it is less of an issue
<jono> as for a possible optional add-on CD, I am not the best person to ask about if that would be doable
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Are thoughts on moving to a default 2 CD image? More room to play with so-to-speak. I feel that the size of a  1 CD image is restrictive for Ubuntu and maybe pushing some users away because their install don't work.(rephrasing DoruHush's previous question): Why are tools like networkmanager and screens&graphics put into a release even if there are regressions from the previous tools?
<jcastro> oops
<jcastro> (rephrasing DoruHush's previous question): Why are tools like networkmanager and screens&graphics put into a  release even if there are regressions from the previous tools?
<jcastro> sorry
<jono> DoruHush: you will need to speak to the package maintainers about that
<jcastro> < jake_peters> QUESTION: Jono, seems like you attend many conventions, how do these off-line events matter for the community and as  the community grows, do you think the role face-to-face interaction will change?
<jono> jake_peters: I think face-to-face conferences have their place - much of it for me is being there to speak face-to-face with specific groups, but naturally confs are very time consuming and expensive, so I try to limit them where possible (and still end up travelling all the time!)
<jono> I think as the community grows the number of confs will grow, and we will see less of the same people visiting every conf
<jcastro> * waiting on questions *
<jono> looks like we are done
<jcastro> one more!
<jcastro> < tehk> QUESTION: A new slew of Girl Friend/grandma Test blog post have sprung up, and they stumble when it comes to installing  things. Do you think a quick 'on first start' video that explains Add/Remove would help?
<jono> ok, last one
<jono> tehk: I would love to see this - and popey is the best person to ask about this
<jono> maybe popey speak to you about this in -chat
<jono> ok, I think we are done
<jono> thanks everyone!
<jcastro> woo, thanks everyone for showing up!
<jono> have a great open week :)
<jcastro> In about 9 minutes we have Intro to Mobile Testing
<jcastro> ok, about 5 minutes until Intro to Mobile Testing!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current Session: "Intro to Mobile Testing" - Chris Gregan and Dave Morley
<jcastro> Ok, Intro to Mobile Testing with Chris Gregan and Dave Morley, take it away guys!
<cgregan> Good morning, afternoon, evening everyone
<cgregan> First let me introduce mayself
<cgregan> I am the lead tester for Ubuntu Mobile Edition
<cgregan> Today we will be doing a review of UME and how testing is being done
<cgregan> I will cover several topics. At the end of each section I will open up the floor for questions
<cgregan> We'll start with a brief overview of UME, then discuss supported hardware
<cgregan> Afterwards a bit about the tools we use to test
<cgregan> Then where to get cases and finally how to submit defects against UME
<cgregan> So...Lets start
<cgregan> UME is a project that was started in collaboration with Intel
<cgregan> The idea was to have an open source OS that supported Intel's new Mobile Internet Device platform
<cgregan> So...we signed up and have begun putting together a version of Hardy which will do exactly that
<cgregan> There are several areas that needed to be adjusted to support this platform.
<cgregan> Most changes are Kernel and driver
<cgregan> Right now the daily builds are focused on only a couple hardware platforms
<cgregan> However, our goal is to make it as widely available, platform-wise
<cgregan> Then of course...get all of you involved to improve it
<cgregan> So....the platforms we support currently are the Samsung Q1 (known as Mccaslin)
<cgregan> and the Intel reference hardware (known as Menlow)
<cgregan> They are both x86.
<cgregan> We have a project page setup in Launchpad that you can check out for more info: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/
<cgregan> Ok....any questions so far?
<popey> 18:07 < popey> QUESTION: What sort of hardware spec are these mobile devices?
<cgregan> ï»¿popey: QUESTION: What sort of hardware spec are these mobile devices?
<popey> heh
<cgregan> So they are x86 and at full speed the intel platform runs at 1.6 Ghz
<popey> memory, storage, other funky devices?
<cgregan> Reference devices so far have been coming with flash drives of about 1 G
<cgregan> Memory is around 512Mbs
<cgregan> But this is just reference and all those specs can be adjusted by manufacturer
<cgregan> Processor speed is about all that is fixed at the top.
<davmor2_laptop> ï»¿artir: QUESTION: Will we ever have a ubuntu phone?(mada by canonical)
<cgregan> Just to wet your appetites...the reference devices are very cool. 5 radios, 3d graphics, etc.
<cgregan> I know of no plans to release a device from Canonical
<davmor2_laptop> ï»¿QUESTION: can  this hardware be accessible to any developper between shiping date ?
<cgregan> Our goal is to become THE OS for MID platform. They will ask for us by name
<cgregan> Currently, the only commercial hardware on the market that we support is the Samsung Q1
<davmor2_laptop> ï»¿mybunche: QUESTION: Will you encourage/liase with/assist product manufactures (eg Nokia) to adopt UME?
<cgregan> We are working on some plans to introduce a program like the laptop initiative from a year ago...with MIDs, but we need some commercial devices for that
<cgregan> ï»¿mybunche: They are currently coming to US, but yes
<cgregan> Ok.....shall we move on?
<cgregan> Tools!
<cgregan> So we use a development tool known as Moblin Image Creator
<cgregan> It was developed by Intel's Moblin project
<cgregan> Basically, it is an image creation tool.
<cgregan> Since these devices have no drives, you need to use a boot USB image to flash to a new OS
<cgregan> MIC does this for us
<cgregan> It is freely available in Ubuntu Universe Repo using Synaptic
<cgregan> We have some project wikis with setup info here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEinstall
<cgregan> Once you have it installed it is launched by icon in your Gnome Menu
<cgregan> Ok...so now you have MIC, but no UME yet. For that there are two methods
<cgregan> First...you are lucky to have a Q1 now...or a menlow device when they come out in a few month
<cgregan> What you want is the .img file from our build area
<cgregan> For Mccaslin: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_full/
<cgregan> Whoops: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull/
<cgregan> ok...then for menlow: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_full/
<cgregan> The .img files are not too large, but fast connection is recommended
<cgregan> Next you need a USB key...1Gb should do it
<cgregan> Launch MIC then use the Tools menu to Write USB Image
<cgregan> It will then ask you for the img location and then your USB mount
<cgregan> Some chugging...and then you have a boot device
<cgregan> Plug the key into your Q1 or Menlow and reboot
<cgregan> You will get a warning screen....which I repeat here:
<cgregan> The image will COMPLETELY overwrite your device storage....so move your rare flac bootlegs and pictures of the kid's 1st birthday off first! :-)
<cgregan> Ok....that was a fairly large info dump...any questions on device install?
<davmor2_laptop> No
<cgregan> Ok.....then lets move onto the steps for emulating...so we can all see the build without a device!
<cgregan> Built into MIC is a tool called Xephyr
<cgregan> It emulated X environments
<cgregan> and allows us to test builds without a device
<cgregan> It has some drawbacks....like you run as root. But for a basic idea of the build and some basic testing it is ok
<cgregan> For emulation you need the Project tarball
<cgregan> from our build area: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow/
<cgregan> With MIC open use the File Menu to Load a Project
<cgregan> It will ask you to pick the tar file
<cgregan> And name the project file to install the chroot environment
<cgregan> We tend to use a standard format so we know which build we are working on
<cgregan> So something like Menlow04_30
<cgregan> It will then think for quite a while
<cgregan> So it is a good time to run that load of laundry or grab a bite to eat
<cgregan> Once you have the project loaded...you will see it appear in the upper field in MIC
<cgregan> Clicking the project will populate the Targets area below
<cgregan> We have two in each build, but we are going to focus on the "full" here
<cgregan> So....select the full Target and click the Terminal button above it
<cgregan> This opens a chroot window for the full version
<cgregan> Now....there is a quick change we need to make here
<cgregan> The resolv.conf for the chroot is set to the build machine..so you will not have network connectivity if you do not edit it
<cgregan> So just vim /etc/resolv.conf
<cgregan> and change buildd to your domain
<cgregan> and the IP to your gateway IP
<cgregan> Ping Google.com to confirm
<cgregan> Ok....so now lets see the build. Type ume-xephyr-start
<cgregan> After a short boot, you will be looking at a "hildon-ized" gnome desktop
<cgregan> So rows of icons to access the mobile apps included
<cgregan> Now play around. We are still in very active testing so things are very fluid
<cgregan> One nice thing about UME is that it is a reference platform
<cgregan> this means it is a foundation
<cgregan> so it supports flash and html overlays of the desktop
<cgregan> so although the standard desktop is kinda utilitarian...you can easily make it quite nice
<cgregan> I have seen some very slick demo desktops in flash
<cgregan> Ok...questions?
<cgregan> Alright.....then lets move to testing
<cgregan> We have created a suite of cases based on the partnership requirements with Intel
<cgregan> The wiki landing page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop
<cgregan> They are divided into three groups
<cgregan> Basic, Advanced, and Compliance
<cgregan> Basic is exactly that. Simple cases to exercise the most used features
<cgregan> Advanced cases require either more system knowledge, or access to resource that we might not all have...like proprietary codecs for example
<cgregan> Compliance cases cover the agreed upon stats for the system. Disk usage, UI design, performance, etc.
<cgregan> These are agreed upon targets that we have agreed to meet
<cgregan> So we need to make sure they are met
<cgregan> Feel free to click around review and even exercise some cases n Xephyr
<cgregan> Each case has a table at the top with version of the build the cases were last run
<cgregan> With that said...updating that table has fallen a bit behind in the rush to test this release cycle...so they are blank for the most part
<cgregan> But feel free to use it
<cgregan> Once we have a regular release that can be tracked more like the traditional Ubuntu builds
<cgregan> Right now we are not operating that way
<cgregan> But after the may release I encourage all of you to look around and test some things
<cgregan> So...you tested and now you found some minor issues
<cgregan> We have a template we would like to see used
<cgregan> You can find it on the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop
<cgregan> Paste it into the report and fill out each section as carefully and thoroughly as possible
<cgregan> Here is an example of a good one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/218850
<cgregan> Feel free to add more info
<cgregan> Don't worry if you forget to use it...I will remind you: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/221503
<cgregan> Of course be sure you are running the latest build when you log an issue against UME.
<cgregan> One last thing...more than ubuntu and canonical folks are watching these bugs so lets make sure we keep it very professional in the bugs
<cgregan> We want to give these customers the best impression of our community
<cgregan> And that is it
<cgregan> Last 5 for questions
<davmor2_laptop> Can it be installed on an eeepc?
<cgregan> ï»¿davmor2_laptop: Not currently...we are building for two specific platforms so the drivers for devices not on those platforms are not loaded to save space
<cgregan> But it is possible with some kernel changes and modprobing
<cgregan> If there is a ton of interest we can look into what exactly needs to be changed and post it
<cgregan> But that would be after May 30
<davmor2_laptop> one of the other questions was on the browser backend
<cgregan> The browser is based on Firefox which has been customized by the Moblin project folks
<jcastro> ok, we're out of time, can you point people to your irc channel if they have more questions?
<cgregan> Well...thanks for listening in. If you have other questions feel free to ping me on irc or email
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current Session: "Packaging Firefox Extensions" - Alexander Sack
<jcastro> ok, next up is Packaging Firefox Extensions with asac!
<asac> thanks jcastro
<jcastro> asac: take it away!
<asac> Welcome to the Firefox Extension Packaging world.
<asac> First I want to give some general information about extension packaging. In particular the why.
<asac> (this questions pops-up frequently so i think its good to address here upfront)
<asac> Then I'll go and give a quick review on what was done during the hardy cycle and where we plan to go for the future.
<asac> Next, I will give a short insight in how you can contribute.
<asac> and finally we'll go and exercise some basics by packaging an extension. For that we will repackage ubufox which should help to show.
<asac> the general idea
<asac> So why do we want extensions packaged. Isn't addons.mozilla.org good enough?
<asac> addons.mozilla.org surely is a great portal for getting extensions and automatically updating them.
<asac> But its not all positive:
<asac> 1. it doesn't allow you to install extensions globally easily.
<asac> 2. more important is the fact that automatically updated extensions might not match the quality expectations of users, especially in corporate environments
<asac> packaged extensions would allow us to stabilize extensions and given the track record of crashes due to extensions it looks worth to do
<asac> Any questions on these?
<asac> < toobuntu> QUESTION: Are Ubuntu packaged Firefox extensions meant to replace the -install-global-extension option? There seem  to often be issues with permissions and configs, and they globals just haven't work out well for me in a multiuser  environment.
<asac> right the install global option is not really working properly
<asac> packages don't replace it, but its the better approach for distributing extensions
<asac> ok lets go on
<jcastro> * waiting on questions *
<asac> OK, lets move one. What was done in hardy?
<asac> In hardy we started to package extensions using our new mozilla-devscripts helpers that make packaging quite easy
<asac> we will use this helper to package the example later on
<asac> anyway, It was hard work, especially since most extensions were not yet available for firefox 3.
<asac> But thanks to the hard work of contributors we managed to get more extensions into the archive than ever before.
<asac> An overview of packages can be seen on the firefox 3 extension page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions which is used to document the data needed to properly maintain extensions in ubuntu.
<asac> so in short, I would declare this a victory and i want to express my thanks to all involved in making that happen
<asac> However, we are still not where we would like to be and for intrepid we are planning to scale this up.
<asac> Based on our experiences from the hardy cycle we discussed how to better automize the extension packaging process.
<asac> which is a requirement to maintain as many extensions as possible in the future with as little manpower as possible.
<asac> of course we will still need  you on the manpower side ;)
<asac> as not everything can be done automatically
<asac> For those intereseted the (not yet finished) current state of that discussion can be found on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions/LargeScaleMaintenance
<asac> Any questions?
<jcastro> < toobuntu> QUESTION: If we encounter an extension that is not already packaged, we should make an effort to package it, then?   Please tell us what's involved...
<asac> i think we will come to that later. but basically all starts with adding the extension to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions wiki page and gather all the data in the table
<asac> once that is done and everything is available, the packaging can start.
<asac> its not even required that you do the packaging on your own. getting the data is often harder than packaging itself
<asac> :)
<asac> especially sorting out licensing ;)
<asac> Next
<jcastro> < MiSc0110> QUESTION: Are this packaged extensions for Firefox only, or are they for Thunderbird too?
<asac> currently we focussed on extensions for firefox
<asac> but that doesn't mean that we won't do the same for thunderbird in future.
<asac> I agree, that we should add a similar wiki page for thunderbird extensions. the process will be similar and we can certainly maintain include thunderbird extensions in our intrepid work
<asac> Next
<asac> (if you are interested in particular thunderbird extensions, please come to #ubuntu-mozillateam channel and ask there)
<asac> ok ... lets move on
<asac> So, how can you contribute?
<asac> obviously you can help doing the packaging work. after some practice you will usually learn quickly how to package extensions
<asac> and usually reach an expertise level just after a few extensions.
<asac> packaging extensions is definitly a good starter task
<asac> but as said above, you can also contribute by suggesting new extensions
<asac> and getting all the data required before we can start packaging them.
<asac> for that you do not need any special technical skills
<asac> as said above the most important things you need to figure before you suggest an extension for packaging is to check:
<asac> 1. does the .xpi include a license file - and is the license suitable for ubuntu
<asac> 2. does the xpi support firefox 3 - if not, does it work if you disable compatibility.
<asac> however, extension authors are not really used to licensing and often they just don't know the difference of including a license in the .xpi or just stating the license on a website
<asac> so if there is no license file in the .xpi it makes sense to contact the author, explaining the situation and asking him politely to include a license file in the top level directory of the xpi
<asac> Which license is suitable and how to check if an extension works with firefox 3 is documented in the first paragraph of the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions wiki page.
<asac> (there might be more licenses, but the list should cover most cases)
<asac> Questions?
<ompaul> Question: how does one disable compatibility
<asac> this is documented in the top most paragraph on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions page
<asac> you have set the extensions.checkCompatibility to false
<asac> in about:config
<asac> next
<asac> OK, lets get started on the packaging excersize for today.
<asac> I wrote a basic packaging page once:
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Firefox3Extensions/Packaging
<asac> You do not need to read it now, please just do what is listed in the Prerequisites section (on top of that page).
<asac> (if you want to do this excersize)
<asac> OK, lets wait a few minutes for those of you who want to follow ...
<asac> feel free to ask questions during this excersize whenever you want :)
<asac> ok, while you are finalizing your preparations some words.
<asac> packaging usually starts with setting up an upstream branch
<asac> this is what the ubufox.upstream branch is.
<asac> its a bit unfair, because ubufox ships decent sources, and in real live you need to convert .xpis to proper upstream branches first
<ompaul> rogfou> QUESTION: what is the policy for updating such extension packages? especially for an LTS (it's ok to answer this question after the exercise if prefered)
<asac> our largescalemaintenance approachs plans to provide latest extensions to -backports for _all_ stable distributions
<asac> unless there is a serious bug we won't send new upstrewam versions to -updates though. but i think thats a good compromise
<asac> serving our users with a somewhat similar experience than AMO ... just QAed and opt-in
<asac> end of answer :)
<asac> ok, lets go on
<asac> so basically you need an .upstream branch. based on that you create a packaging branch. to do so run:
<asac> bzr branch ubufox.upstream ubufox.ubuntu
<asac> this will create a ubufox.ubuntu directory next to your ubufox.upstream branch
<asac> now we have to add the initial packaging.
<asac> for that we copy the debian/ directory from the XPI.TEMPLATE into the ubufox.ubuntu directory
<asac> e.g. cp -r XPI.TEMPLATE/debian ubufox.ubuntu/
<asac> then you switch to the ubufox.ubuntu directory
<asac>   cd ubufox.ubuntu
<asac> and add the new files to the branch
<asac>   bzr add debian
<asac> the output i get from this looks like: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8993/
<asac> the content of the ubufox.ubuntu directory looks like http://paste.ubuntu.com/8994/ after doing that
<asac> now you have to edit the template files
<asac>  1. changelog: change the package name in the first line to match the package you are trying to package
<asac> and change the name to match your name/email
<asac> the changelog currently contains some documentation about the best-practices on how to commit, but thats not important for this session.
<asac> usually you would also change the version of the changelog to match the upstream version (which is in install.rdf)
<asac> so in this case you would use 0.6~a1-0ubuntu1
<asac> 2. control: here you have to change the Source: field to match your package (ubufox) and the XSBC-Original-Maintainer field (use your name if you want to be the primary packaging contact)
<asac> usually you would also change the Vcs-Bzr field, but since this is just an excersize you can skip this
<asac> together with fixing package description and so on
<asac> in case you would create a thunderbird extension you would also adapt the Depends: field accordingly.
<asac> the template should cover the most common firefox cases (usable for firefox 2 + firefox 3)
<asac> 3. copyright ... you don't need to edit this for this excersize. usually you would fill in the license of the extension you package
<asac> oh, for 2. i forgot that you need to change the Package: field as well (ubufox)
<asac> 4. rules: here you have to change the fields MOZ_EXTENSION_PKG and the MOZ_XPI_BUILD_COMMAND
<asac> the MOZ_EXTENSION_PKG would be the value you added to the Package: field in control
<asac> the MOZ_XPI_BUILD_COMMAND is expected to produce an .xpi in the top level directory
<asac> the rules files looks like http://paste.ubuntu.com/8996/ for me now
<asac> ok lets sync up
<asac> my changelog looks like: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8998/
<asac> my control looks like: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8999/
<asac> and the rules like above (http://paste.ubuntu.com/8996/)
<asac> when you are done you can commit everything like
<asac>   bzr commit -m "* initial packaging (0.6~a1-0ubuntu1)"
<asac> and do a test build
<asac>  dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b
<asac> ok, kind of a rush, but i hope you could follow
<asac> questions so far?
<ompaul> <progfou> QUESTION: does the update policy specify if one should update only on security issue and major bugs correction (data loss) or also on added new features?
<asac> problems?
<asac> we want latest extensions everywhere ... thats why our policy for -backports allows new features
<ompaul> <artir> dpkg-buildpackage: fallo: fakeroot debian/rules binary gave error exit status 2
<asac> for -updates we have the same policy as the ubuntu distribution
<asac> e.g. only security related changes that are minimal.
<asac> however, security issues have to be considered case-by-case
<asac> there might be cases where updating to latest upstream might be better, but usually we want minimal patches for security changes
<asac> next
<asac> ah
<asac> for that error, please post the complete output
<ompaul> <artir> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9002/
<asac> anyway. i think time is running low. if you want to finish this excersize feel free to join us in  #ubuntu-mozillateam. we can surely sort out the final issues there :)
<ompaul> mailing list?
<asac> same goes for further questions. you can ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, or in the mozillateam channel
<asac> mailing list is: ubuntu-mozillateam AT lists DOT ubuntu DOT com.
<asac> but you need to be subscribed. most discussion happens in #ubuntu-mozillteam
<ompaul> asac, thank you \o/
<asac> thanks for joining ... and thanks for helping for extension packaging in future
<asac> hope you had some fun at least ;)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current Session: "Ubuntu Artwork" - Ken Wimer
<jcastro> kwwii: you're up!
<kwwii> ok, here we go :-)
<jcastro> Next up is Ubuntu Artwork with Ken Wimer!
<kwwii> Hi everyone, thanks for taking the time to be here
<kwwii> My name is Kenneth Wimer. I work on art and design on the Ubuntu artwork team
<kwwii> I thought I would start off by explaining a bit about the art team and what we do
<kwwii> and then we can answer any questions that come up
<kwwii> The Ubuntu artwork team are the people behind planning and creating artwork for community based themes, the default ubuntu theme, and packaging said artwork.
<kwwii> We communicate through the wiki, mailing list and irc channel.
<kwwii> For many people, at first they think all we do is draw pretty pictures but there is a lot more to it when you get down to creating an entire theme.
<kwwii> just a small list:
<kwwii> installer, usplash, login manager, and the various desktop pieces like wallpaper, screensaver, splash-screens, icons, window decorations, widget styles, etc.
<kwwii> For many people, at first they think all we do is draw pretty pictures but there is a lot more to it when you get down to creating an entire theme.
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> There has been a lot of interest recently in getting theme teams together to create community based themes with original artwork.
<kwwii> This is a great way to show off what we have to offer - I am looking forward to seeing what everyone can come up with.
<kwwii> Now that Hardy is out the door things have been heating up again for Intrepid.
<kwwii> We have been doing quite a bit of planning for future releases and with Intrepid I think that we'll see more change than we have in the past couple of releases.
<kwwii> I would like to be able to take a few bold steps towards defining an appealing and unique interface.
<kwwii> Maybe at this point I should say that brown is here to stay :-) Brown identifies us, it sets us apart and if done correctly can be very compelling and interesting.
<ompaul> <rubicon_> QUESTION: are you planning to create one (or more) unified theme(s) for the intrepid? usplash, gdm, GTK, Qt, everything?
<kwwii> we will have one theme for intrepid but theming between qt and gtk is quite different
<kwwii> I do not that we will see one theme for everything anytime soon
<kwwii> On a non-artsy side, packaging the pieces is a lot of work, in and of itself, not to mention trying to actually change something more than a pic here and there.
<kwwii> Also, there are always technical issues coming up with art bugs.
<kwwii> Quite often a bug is subscribed to the art team because of some visual error which is not actually a problem with the artwork.
<ompaul> <PartyPaladin> QUESTION: I'm a photographer.  Is there anything I could do to contribute, and if so what sort of photos are useful?
<kwwii> photographers can be a great help
<kwwii> for instance, we use cropped pictures or textures from pictures in splash screens, wallpapers and more
<kwwii> so, with a healthy dose of Gimp magic anything is possible
<kwwii> maybe I should add here that if anyone is interested in joining the team, they should check out the wiki page
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<kwwii> there are instructions on how to join
<kwwii> one last thing on photography...it is important that the artist use a CC or other open source license so that we can include it in the distribution
<ompaul> more than just CC it needs to allow commercial redistribution or else it can't be put in distros
<ompaul> <J-_> Question: Will Intrepid have any significant UI changes? I suppose that's moreso a GNOME question.
<kwwii> Ubuntu Intrepid will hopefully have lots of UI changes if you ask me
<kwwii> I would like to see us work on renewing the style and window decorations as well as use 2D icons in the panel, not to mention simply refreshing the human icon set
<kwwii> naturally, that goes along with the usplash, gdm and wallpaper
<kwwii> some of the ideas which we will first show in Intrepid will only come to fruition in later releases though
<kwwii> so we might start testing more radical ideas soon only to pull some closer to release, working on them further in later releases
<ompaul> <Alsvartr> QUESTION: does free software have all the functions you need in your work? Do you use non-free or proprietary software?
<kwwii> I used to use Adobe products quite a bit. I still have a mac with osx on it and every now I do still use an app or two
<kwwii> in the meantime inkscape and krita are just about all I need
<kwwii> inkscape is the main tool, I can do pretty much anything with it :-)
<kwwii> scribus is very popular with people doing layouts but I don't do that much
<kwwii> I have also played with pencil for sketching with my tablet
<ompaul> <PartyPaladin> QUESTION: Are there any resources you would recommend for a beginner that's interested in learning how to make Gnome themes?
<kwwii> a whole Gnome theme is a pretty complicated issue as it contains a metacity theme, an icon theme, a style and probably a wallpaper
<kwwii> I would say that the best thing to do is think of one thing you want to change and look into that
<kwwii> we have a list of information sources on the wiki
<kwwii> and asking in irc is also a quick way if someone is around
<kwwii> the most basic thing is to learn to do artwork (with inkscape prefereably)
<kwwii> and learn how to figure out small technical issues or know who else to ask
<ompaul> <bersace> QUESTION: kwwii : do you plan following the same concept, just evolving it, during the next two years in order to produce a very polished theme for next LTS ?
<kwwii> yes, we began to plan for the next several releases during Hardy. We hope to create a new look and style which evolves over the course of this LTS cycle
<kwwii> this is why we have a chance to play around more in Intrepid than we could in Hardy
<kwwii> again, it will still be brown though :-)
<ompaul> bersace> QUESTION: Do you intend follow Tango guideline in Human Theme (at least solve usability and consistency ?)
<kwwii> as Gnome uses icons which follow the Tango guidelines I think that we have to pay attention to them to some extent
<kwwii> but I would not say that we are bound by the Tango guidelines
<kwwii> so we will use them as a basis but change things as we see fit
<ompaul> <_kavOOr_> QUESTION : why was the desktop loading splash screen removed gutsy onwards ?
<kwwii> afaik, it turned out that it took longer to load the splash screen and icons and do the animation than it did to start the desktop in most cases
<jcastro> yes that was a GNOME upstream change
<kwwii> the splash screen was really only there to hide the fact that it took so long to load the desktop :-)
<ompaul> <thorwil> QUESTION: how will the metacity/compiz split be dealt with in future?
<kwwii> although that is more of a technical question it directly effects what we can do on the desktop in the future so the best I can say is that whatever works best usually gets picked by the devs in charge
<kwwii> my guess is that compiz is around for a while
<jcastro> < lukeen> QUESTION: Can you please support Cimi with his Murrine engine and especially the rgba transparency thing? I think he  still needs a configurator, a simple version of a configurator could be included in the appeareance dialog so people can  not only choose the color, but also how compact and glassy a theme should be.
<kwwii> actually, I would very much like to support him but I already have one child at home :p
<kwwii> I think his work rocks
<kwwii> and I really think that some version of murrine is the way to move forward
<kwwii> everyone loves to configure things
<jcastro> < Leviath> QUESTION: Does the art-team somehow contribute to the linux-community outside of ubuntu?
<kwwii> we just included human themes with the GUI configurable colors
<kwwii> people like being able to choose on some things
<kwwii> until now very little of what the art team has done has gone upstream other than bug fixes
<kwwii> one thing that we are working on is improving the OOo icons
<kwwii> and sending, where appropriate, our icons upstream to tango
<kwwii> in the end, the ubuntu default theme is not very usefull for upstream so much of what we do is, by definition, not upstream-able
<kwwii> but our theme teams could be working on themes which make it upstream in gnome
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will there be anymore further development in bringing themes from other sources to the desktop? By that I mean, a  program to browse themes on selected websites from a program within Ubuntu. I've seen a program in Feisty that does  something similar, but it seemed to not really have options on where to browse, and seemed very buggy.
<kwwii> so that is an area we need to work on, but the basis is there
<kwwii> while there are sites with themes available there is, to be quite honest, a lot of hacky themes out there and they often depend on engines which might or might not work
<kwwii> so while I don't see such an app happening without someone explicitly trying to do it right I do think that you will see more installable thems in universe in the future
<kwwii> so add/remove programs will offer people the same functionality
<jcastro> This next one I know you will love.
<jcastro>  RzR> QUESTION: how can we make better integration of some applications when using dark themes ?
<kwwii> hehe, the slate theme
<kwwii> to be honest, I think that a lot of apps are not coded properly
<kwwii> so I think that one needs to include a dark theme as soon as possible and start reporting bugs
<kwwii> if not enough of those bugs are fixed or they are too critical we will have to revert until such time as those bugts are fixed
<kwwii> I think that you will see more and more people using a dark theme in the future
<kwwii> it is one more way for us to set ourselves apart
<kwwii> and on smaller devices it just looks niftier
<kwwii> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < bersace> QUESTION: is there some plan on making Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu and Ubuntu artworks consistent ?
<_MMA_> I'd also add that many dark themes don't work because of incorrect usage of GTK. Hard-coding color values and such. Best to report those issues upstream.
<kwwii> that is one way that we can work with upstream :-)
<kwwii> bersace: no, until now there are no such plans
<kwwii> bersace: I think that the amount of work would be overwhelming
<kwwii> and I am not sure if all the communities would want that as well
<kwwii> although for ubuntu itself to do such would be interesting if we had the manpower
<kwwii> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: the new human icon theme will be a evolution of the previous one or a radically new  style?
<kwwii> as an icon theme takes a very long time to create it will be done in phases
<kwwii> so it will not be radically different but yet totally different in the end :-)
<kwwii> any theme which lasts longer than a year begins to evolve
<kwwii> right now the human icon theme is only a few icons anyway
<kwwii> with the 2D panel icons idea we start to look at icon themes in a new way
<_MMA_> ï»¿QUESTION: ï»¿ï»¿lukeen: will there be more themes, icons and especially wallpapers ï»¿(well in GNOME, KDE has enough i think) preinstalled in future releases?
<kwwii> that is one thing that I definitely want to do in Intrepid
<kwwii> the currently available themes are simply outdated
<kwwii> I think that we could do much better
<kwwii> people love to click through themes and there are so many already available I see no reason why we should not present the best what is out there
<ompaul> <james_w> QUESTION: related to lukeen's. Some people really really like the default wallpaper of a specific release, but when they upgrade this is taken away. Is there any plan to ship old versions so they can at least switch back? Is this a CD space issue?
<kwwii> while I understand that people might get upset when the pic they like goes away it really has to happen or you wouldn't know if you updated or not :-)
<kwwii> I guess the best answer to that would be to create a theme package with previous versions
<kwwii> so that people could install whichever they like
<kwwii> I think that once you set your wallpaper to something different than the default it keeps it after an update so this should only happen once then
<_MMA_> QUESTION: ï»¿ï»¿Azag: In gnome-look (and similars) there are a loot of themes that are trying to copy to Mac Leopard or Winbug Vista, what do you think, it is a obsession of the GNU/Linux users to imitate other SO?
<kwwii> I think the people like to have the shiniest new thing
<kwwii> so when nice looking themes come out they want to have them on linux
<kwwii> thinking "see, I can show that linux is just as good as X"
<kwwii> personall, I think it is a waste of time
<kwwii> personally, that is
<kwwii> I think that we can push some new ideas through which nobody else has shown before
<kwwii> so there is no need to copy something that is already old
<kwwii> more than anything else, we need a strong community to realize something so bold
<kwwii> there is a lot of work to do :-)
<kwwii> anyone who wants to check us out, come by #ubuntu-artwork on freenode
<kwwii> or our wiki on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<kwwii> and don't forget the mailing list http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<kwwii> I guess that wraps things up for me, thanks for joining :-)
<ompaul> \o/ thanks kwwii \o/
<nixternal> smashing job kwwii!!
<nixternal> letting everyone join up...will start in a couple of minutes
<nixternal> If you are sticking around for the KDE 5 talk, raise your hand in *-chat \o/!
<nixternal> yes, we have decided to ditch KDE 4 and go directly to KDE 5
<nixternal> come on people, go get your friends...I do not start until there are 330 people in here
 * ompaul quits ;-)
<nixternal> 9 more to go
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: you ready yet?
<nosrednaekim> K :)
<nixternal> HERE WE GO!
<nixternal> 5
<nixternal> 4
<nixternal> 3
<nixternal> 2
<nixternal> 1
<nixternal> THE END!
<nixternal> thanks everyone for coming!
<nixternal> :)
<nixternal> Alrighty, lets try this again....if you are here for the KDE 4 talk, give me a "K-MEN!"
<nixternal> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat that is
<nosrednaekim> or a "this is Korney"
<nixternal> oh wow, don't feed um!
<nixternal> alrighty, let me give you a bit of an intro about myself and what I will lie to you all about today
<nixternal> if you were in the Kubuntu Development talk, tough, you are going to see the same intro again! :)
<nixternal> My name is Richard Johnson, and I am a Kubuntu and KDE developer wannabe!
<nixternal> Here is a brief summary of what I am about to lie to you all about today!
<nixternal>  * Intro about me
<nixternal>  * Intro about Kubuntu
<nixternal>  * Intro about KDE
<nixternal>  * KDE 4 LOVE!
<nixternal>  * Kubuntu + KDE 4 == the perfect dream!
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current Session: "KDE 4" - Richard Johnson
<nixternal> So now, if you placed your tables in the upright position and fastened your belts, go ahead and undo that, as the drinks are making their rounds
* nosrednaekim changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current Session: "KDE4" - Richard Johnson
<nixternal> LETS GO!!!
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> === About Me ===
<nixternal> * Free software developer and advocate since 1994
<nixternal> * Kubuntu developer and documentation writer since 2005
<nixternal> * KDE developer and documentation writer since 2005, user since 1996
<nixternal> * Debian Maintainer for a couple of packages, KDE based of course
<nixternal> * Co-Author of the Official Ubuntu Book (Edubuntu chapter - huh?)
<nixternal> * Go by nixternal on every communication protocol imaginable
<nixternal> * Email me at nixternal@kubuntu.org
<nixternal> now I don't expect any of you will subscribe my email address to Microsoft mailing lists (I am still trying to find out who did that a couple of months back to me!)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === About Kubuntu ===
<nixternal> I could paste my 5 lines, or I could put it this way...It is the greatest thing since sliced bread!
<nixternal> OK, I will paste it!
<nixternal>  * Official project of the Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution
<nixternal>  * We use the same exact base system as Ubuntu, we just use KDE instead
<nixternal>  * It is pronounced koo-BOON-too
<nixternal>  * First released in 2005 with the Hoary Hedgehog (5.04) version
<nixternal>  * http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/591 - The post that started it all, by some guy named Jonathan Riddell
<nixternal> Riddell: say hi this time!
<nixternal> it didn't work Tuesday, but I am hoping the Kubuntu robot is working today
<nixternal> OK, who booted Riddell up in Vista? He is sluggish today!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === About KDE ===
<nixternal> If you don't know what KDE is yet, boy are you missing out on life :p
<nixternal>  * Free software project
<nixternal>  * Desktop Environment, Office Suite, Development Framework, and more...
<nixternal>  * Announced in 1996, release 1.0 in 1998
<nixternal>  * Stable release version is 3.5.9, development version is 4.0.3 (4.0.4 next week!)
<nixternal>  * http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.development.apps/msg/cb4b2d67ffc3ffce - The email that started it all, by some other guy named Matthias Ettrich
<Riddell> hi!
<nixternal> whoa, the robot is working :)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Lets get right into some KDE love, how about a little history (I failed history twice in school, so this isn't any different)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> == History ==
<nixternal> * 1998 - KDE 1.0 (21 members make up the core team)
<nixternal> * 2000 - KDE 2.0
<nixternal> * 2002 - KDE 3.0
<nixternal> * 2005 - KDE 3.5 (Currently 3.5.9)
<nixternal> * 2008 - KDE 4.0 (Currently 4.0.3)
<nixternal> * July 29, 2008 - KDE 4.1 (Happy birthday to me!)
<nixternal> Now the statistics, most come from researching Google, and we know Google is the global authority on truth!
<nixternal> == Statistics ==
<nixternal> * 1,800+ SVN Accounts
<nixternal> * More than 2,800 weekly commits
<nixternal> * Over 5 million lines of code
<nixternal> * Available in 65+ languages
<nixternal> lets get right into the meat and tators here, you want to know about the desktop...here is everything you didn't want to know :)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> == Desktop ==
<nixternal> I am going to briefly cover the new KDE 4 desktop. The topics I will cover include:
<nixternal>  * Beauty
<nixternal>  * Usability
<nixternal>  * Portability
<nixternal>  * Functionality
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> === Beauty ===
<nixternal> How man think what you have seen thus far on the intertubes about KDE 4 (screenshots and such), display a thing of beauty? raise your ands in chat \o/
<nixternal> s/man/many!
<nixternal> I can speel, I promise
<nixternal> wow, just one!
<nixternal> thanks vorian! you are a trooper!
<nixternal> ahh, now everyone kicks in :)
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> Well, he is what makes KDE 4 so beautiful!
<nixternal>  * KDE Window Manager (KWin)
<nixternal>  * Plasma
<nixternal>  * Oxygen
<nixternal>  * Kenneth Wimer - kwwii
<nixternal> he is a work of art, but my god he is beautiful!
<nixternal> err, I mean his artwork is beautiful
<nixternal> I will give a brief intro into these 3 really quick
<nixternal> ==== KWin ====
<nixternal> KWin is not just another Window Manager for X. KWin has gone through amazing transformations for KDE 4 and now features:
<nixternal> * Compositing support and management
<nixternal> * Similar graphical effects to that of Compiz
<nixternal> * Functions even when there is no system support
<nixternal> * Includes a desktop grid, window switcher, shadowing, wobbly windows, snowflakes, and more...
<nixternal> man I can type fast! I type so fast irssi asks me to press Ctrl+k
<nixternal> Yes, KWin will do wobbly windows now...which means less work will get done by those who use it because they love to watch it...umm...wobble
<nixternal> ==== Plasma ====
<nixternal> NOTE: Not to be confused with blood or lasers
<nixternal> This is the part of the KDE 4 desktop that everyone has been seeing, and in most instances drooling over.
<nixternal> The KDE of yesterday included a desktop that was made up of the KDesktop, Kicker, SuperKaramba and more.
<nixternal> Today the KDE desktop is made up of just one appliance, Plasma.
<nixternal> Here are just a few features of Plasma today:
<nixternal>  * Unified workspace that embodies innovation, beauty, and usability
<nixternal>  * Replaces KDesktop, Kicker, SuperKaramba, and more...
<nixternal>  * Consists of containments, data engines, runners, plasmoids, and more...
<nixternal>  * 4.1 with WebKit will include Mac Dashboard widget support
<nixternal>  * 4.1 will include support for SuperKaramba widgets
<nixternal>  * The language bindings for writing Plasmoids continues to grow
<nixternal> One of the complaints we have been seeing is that there aren't many plasmoids available.
<nixternal> Well with KDE 4.1 and WebKit, there will be thousands of widgets available for your desktop.
<nixternal> ==== Oxygen ====
<nixternal> Tell me that KDE isn't promoting environmentally safe computing?!?! we are providing you with oxygen!!
<nixternal> breathe....
<nixternal> When people hear about KDE 4 and Oxygen, one thing comes to mind: super sexy icons!
<nixternal> Well, Oxygen is more than just icons, Oxygen is:
<nixternal>  * Icons (duh we just said that!)
<nixternal>  * Widget and window styling
<nixternal>  * Mouse cursors (makes using the mouse fun again!)
<nixternal>  * Audio theme (crank up those speakers and let everyone hear the love!)
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> That concludes the beauty, make way for usability!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> KDE's goal has always been to make an easy-to-use computing environment.
<nixternal> With KDE 4, this hasn't changed. KDE worked closely with the Open Usability project (http://openusability.org).
<nixternal> One of the main goals for KDE 4 was to identify ideas that were lacking and work hard to make these ideas a reality.
<nixternal> The research-driven development behind KDE 4 brought modern and extensive human interface guidelines
<nixternal> These new guidelines provide the developers something to aim for, and seeing some of the updated applications, they aimed high and won!
<nixternal> Why does this really matter? Easy, usable software makes the end user happy!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> Remember, KDE 4.0.x is not the KDE 4 we talked about....just wait until 4.1 - usability! usability! usability!
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Portability ===
<nixternal> I use Konqueror, Kate, Konsole, and more on my Windows and Mac desktops!
<nixternal> WHAT?!?!?!
<nixternal> One of the goals of KDE 4 was to make it portable, and making it portable is what they are doing, BIG TIME!
<nixternal> With the KDE 4 libraries you can easily write a single application for multiple platforms!
<nixternal> If you can put Linux on it, you can put KDE 4 on it! My toaster runs KDE 4!!!
<nixternal> nothing like a plasmoid with a bit of jam spread!
<nixternal> As we sit here in IRC, totally awake I hope, KDE 4 has the following platform support:
 * nosrednaekim blinks
<nixternal>  * Linux - libraries, backends, applications, and workspace - all in place
<nixternal>  * Solaris - libraries, backends, applications, and workspace - all in place
<nixternal>  * BSD - libraries, backends, applications, and workspace - all in place
<nixternal>  * *nix - libraries and backends in place, applications and workspace in development
<nixternal>  * Windows - libraries in place, backends and applications in development, workspace nonexistant
<nixternal>  * Mac OS - libraries in place, backends and applications in development, workspace nonexistant
<nixternal> whew, that was a lot to type!
<nixternal> For those of you wanting to see more about KDE 4 and Windows, check out http://windows.kde.org
<nixternal> .....
<nixternal> === Functionality ===
<nixternal> What is going to make KDE 4 so functional?
<nixternal> There are so many new technologies and platforms included with KDE 4 that my head spins just thinking about them.
<nixternal> The ones I will briefly cover include:
<nixternal>  * Solid
<nixternal>  * Sonnet
<nixternal>  * NEPOMUK
<nixternal>  * Strigi
<nixternal>  * Phonon
<nixternal>  * Akonadi
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== Solid ====
<nixternal> Listen up developers!
<nixternal> Solid is a device integration framework aimed at developers.
<nixternal> Solid does not manage your hardware, but it makes managing your hardware through a single API possible.
<nixternal> Current backends for Solid include:
<nixternal>  * HAL
<nixternal>  * Networkmanager (or Networkmangler if you have problems with it)
<nixternal>  * BlueZ
<nixternal> If you are interested in utilizing Solid in your applications, I recommend that you review http://solid.kde.org
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== Sonnet ====
<nixternal> Even though i speak English only, and speak it badly, Sonnet totally rocks in some of its functions!
<nixternal> Sonnet is a multilingual spell check application.
<nixternal> Another spell check application you are asking? Heck no, this goes above and beyond any other spell checker I have experienced.
<nixternal> So what makes it stand out?
<nixternal>  * Automatic language detection - the language you are typing in, can be recognized by Sonnet within the first 20 characters typed
<nixternal>  * Performance! - it is fast
<nixternal>  * Various improvements in different languages
<nixternal>  * Unlike KSpell2 which consisted of 7 components and had a complicated API, Sonnet has 1 component
<nixternal>  * Provides the ability to have a primary and secondary dictionary
<nixternal> a secondary dictionary could be something like...a dictionary filled with your 1337 AOL speaking skillz, or if you are a Doctor, your medical terms, and so on....
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== NEPOMUK ====
<nixternal> Not only does it have a weird name, but what it stands for is even weirder :)
<nixternal> Networked Environment for Personalize, Ontology-based Management of Unified Knowledge
<nixternal> YEAH! Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
<nixternal> I think I will stick with NEPOMUK, that is way to many words to remember!
<nixternal> So what exactly is this alien of an application? (Kubuntu - Linux for everyone, unlike Ubuntu who only covers humans...Kubuntu loves the aliens too!)
<nixternal> First off, NEPOMUK isn't an application, it is an open-source specification.
<nixternal> Huh?
<nixternal> Ya, same exact thoughts here, but it is cool, or should I say KOOL?!?! (ya, I know all of you just went, "OMG! did he really just put a K in there, my what a loser!")
<nixternal> NEPOMUK is a specification that is concerned with the development of the Social Semantic Desktop.
<nixternal> Social Sem..WHAT?
<nixternal>  * Social - of or relating to human society, the interaction of the individual and the group (m-w.com)
<nixternal>  * Semantic - of or relating to meaning in language (m-w.com)
<nixternal>  * Desktop - I hope you know what this is!
<nixternal> OK, so what does it really mean? After breaking down each word, NEPOMUK brings them together to provide your computer the needs in order to more easily share data between various applications and tasks.
<nixternal> and sharing can be taken further!
<nixternal> Maybe http://nepomuk.kde.org can help you understand NEPOMUK a bit better.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== Strigi ====
<nixternal> Strigi is a fast and light-weight desktop-independent search daemon.
<nixternal> In KDE 4, Strigi is the core component of the semantic desktop.
<nixternal> Strigi indexes just about anything!
<nixternal> If you were disappointed with Strigi in KDE 3, well don't worry, it is way better, far more stable, and not as agressive in KDE 4.
<nixternal> unless of course you are on battery, right fdoving? :)
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== Phonon ====
<nixternal> Phonon is a cross platform multimedia API, aimed at developers. Phonon is NOT a multimedia framework, but it does interface with existing frameworks.
<nixternal> Some of the features and benefits of Phonon include:
<nixternal>  * Pluggable backends - Gstreamer, Xine, and more...
<nixternal>  * Easily switch backends on the fly
<nixternal>  * Included in Qt 4.4!
<nixternal>  * Provides a great control of your accessories in combination with Solid
<nixternal>  * A central place for audio and video related configurations
<nixternal>  * Automatic device selection
<nixternal> The last bullet point, automatic device selection, is very cool.
<nixternal> Phonon will act on a signal from Solid and automatically make use of the accessory/device where requested.
<nixternal> An example of this would be when you plug in a USB headset, your VoIP application would automatically switch from using the internal soundcard to the headset so you can start chatting away with granny!
<nixternal> More information on Phonon can be found at http://phonon.kde.org
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> ==== Akonadi ====
<nixternal> Akonadi used to be the new Personal Information Management (PIM) framework for KDE, but just recently that has all changed.
<nixternal> The developers have pulled out all of the KDE essentials out of the framework, allowing other systems to easily incorporate it into their applications without having to depend on the KDE libraries. Cool!
<nixternal> Akonadi's goal is to provide a single extensible data storage solution for PIM applications.
<nixternal> Akonadi will also include search, a library/cache, as well as notification of data changes.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> That concludes KDE 4 - a super brief intro....so what does this have to do with Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> Well, to be honest, the future of Kubuntu and KDE 4 is still open.
<nixternal> Kubuntu is definitely on the right track and luckily got involved with the KDE 4 development process over a year ago.
<nixternal> Many people didn't like the decision to drop LTS for our 8.04 release, and either did many of the developers to be honest.
<nixternal> The reasons behind the non-LTS decision related to:
<nixternal>  * Kubuntu is a 2nd class citizen
<nixternal> HAH! I GOT YOU!
<nixternal> so don't ask about that when the Q&A starts :p
<nixternal> The real reasons are:
<nixternal>  * Unknown timeframe for the continued support for KDE 3.5 by the KDE community
<nixternal>  * KDE 4.0 wouldn't be stable enough for a LTS release
<nixternal>  * Kubuntu didn't have the support contracts in order to justify continuing on a LTS track at this time
<nixternal> Another question we see is, "Will 8.10 be a LTS release since it will include KDE 4.1?"  The answer is no. If we were to do LTS, then that would mean every other project within Ubuntu would have to do the same, as we rely on the same base.
<nixternal> Anyways, back to KDE 4 lovin'!
<nixternal> and Kubuntu lovin!
<nixternal> With UDS coming up, all of the KDE 4 issues involving Kubuntu haven't been decided upon. We will know more after UDS of course.
<nixternal> A few things we are looking into at this time include:
<nixternal>  * A personal Gulfstream for Kubuntu developers
<nixternal>  * Moving KDE 4 into main, and moving KDE 3 into universe
<nixternal>  * Working with upstream and other distributions to create a unified migration utility from KDE 3 to KDE 4
<nixternal>  * Converting our Qt3 applications to Qt4
<nixternal>  * What kind of changes Kubuntu will make in order to stand out from the crowd
<nixternal> This is where YOU, the user or the developer come in!
<nixternal> or the user and the developer in you :)
<nixternal> We need all of YOU, and I mean those who don't even use KDE or Kubuntu, to give us a try and help mold our future.
<nixternal> What we will need is this:
<nixternal>  * A Gulfstream
<nixternal>  * Bug reporters and triagers
<nixternal>  * Documentation writers (a whole army would be nice! Check back on Friday @ 21:00 UTC for my documentation talk here at Open Week)
<nixternal>  * Developers! Developers! Developers!  (I just got up and did the monkey dance too!)
<nixternal> but more importantly!
<nixternal>  * Community! Community! Community! (oh man, I think I just broke my arm!)
<nixternal> Remember, what you are seeing right now is KDE 4.0, the developers release so-to-speak. 4.1 will be out in a few more months which will mean stability, usability, and functionality for all.
<nixternal> If you have been looking for a project to get involved with, Kubuntu and KDE 4 is that project.
<nixternal> Come join us and be a part of the future!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> and now for the part you all have been waiting for!!!
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> = Conclusion =
<nixternal> I would like to thank each and every one of you for attending this meeting.
<nixternal> I hope it wasn't to boring for you and that you are now ready to explode with questions, comments, and ideas.
<nixternal> I ask that you provide your question, comments, or ideas in accordance to the rules set forth in the discussion channel for the Open Week talks.
<nixternal> Thanks again and if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask, and comments and ideas can be fired my way as well.
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: start with the questions!!!
<nosrednaekim> <greg-g> NOTAQUESTION: I have an adult sized tricycle for you nixternal, no gulfstream though?
<nixternal> greg-g: is that the same one you rode to Penguicon? I will take it!
<nosrednaekim> <gkatsev> QUESTION: should I wait till 4.1 to try it out, or is it safe to try it out now?
 * nixternal pushes the seat belt button on greg-g's Chrome bag
<nixternal> gkatsev: I think it is safe for you to try out...the nice thing is, you can run it side-by-side your stable setup to play with
<nosrednaekim> <SzArAk> QUESTION: is sonnet another abstraction layer for dictionaries? Is it a kind of API for between programs and ispell/aspell whatever, or is it independent from things like aspell?
<nixternal> I would enjoy people who are unsure about it to give it a shot, how else are we going to perfect it
<nosrednaekim> oops.. sorry :)
<nixternal> SzArAk: as it stands, I am not 100% sure...I think it is independent, but at the same time, it wouldn't make sense to rewrite entire dictionaries...I will look into that and get more info for you or anyone else interested
<nosrednaekim>  <davidmac> QUESTION: What is the future of compiz + KDE on kubuntu?   Seems there is some overlap.
<nixternal> davidmac: as KDE 4.1 comes out with all of the compositing glory it has in trunk, I think the need for Compiz and KDE 4 will disappear. But Compiz and KDE 3.5 is still something many will use...now to get Compiz developers to fix all of the bugs on their KDE side of things
<nosrednaekim> <d33d> QUESTION: Where can I find more information about submitting bugs or how to (because I'm new to submitting bugs) for Kubuntu?
<nixternal> s/Compiz and KDE 4/KDE 4 with Compiz/
<nosrednaekim> nixternal: If i'm not giving you enough time... yell at me :)
<nixternal> d33d: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingWithBugs
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: perfect, keep on rocking!
<nosrednaekim>  <Daisuke_Ido> QUESTION: How much did the Steve Ballmer Enthusiasm Correspondence Course cost?
<nixternal> $13
<nixternal> oh wait
<nixternal> $0.99 - got the audio version on iTunes :p
<nosrednaekim> <ligemeget> QUESTION: Will we have to wait for Intrepid in order to get Amarok v.2?
<nixternal> ligemeget: my magic 8 ball says 'No' - apachelogger_ will have a package for Hardy users when it is ready :)
<nixternal> ligemeget: we will put up a hardy ppa with kde4 updates, including amarok
<nixternal> so hardy users can continue loving KDE 4 updates :)
<nosrednaekim> it all depends on how good/fast daSkreech is :)
<nixternal> haha
<nosrednaekim>  <ligemeget> QUESTION: Does Kubuntu documentation use the same wiki as Ubuntu documentation (help.ubuntu.com)?
<nixternal> ligemeget: yes - however there are some docs that could be written to include the Kubuntu side of things - and of course it is open for everyone to edit :)
<nixternal> Riddell: note we should look at a help.kubuntu.org redirect like we have with wiki.kubuntu.org?
<nosrednaekim> <jfeby> QUESTION: Will 4.1 be available for Hardy? Will it be in backports, or will it be in the PPA launchpad repos like 4 was for Gutsy?
<nixternal> jfeby: PPA - that way we don't have to go through all of the troubles of uploading to an LTS base that Ubuntu also uses, nor do we have to file all of the proper paperwork :)
<nosrednaekim>  <Lardarse> QUESTION: where did the name nixternal come from?
<nixternal> Lardarse: back in 1974, when I was born, my mom and dad looked at me and said...
<nixternal> "This boy is UNIX, and he is that forever"
<nixternal> or
<nixternal> "My god our son is ugly, is he gone (nixed) forever (eternal)?"
<nixternal> NIX from UNIX, and Ternal from Eternal :)
<nosrednaekim> <davidmac> QUESTION:  Are the python kde libraries time with releases?  Or is that totally separate project with its own timeline.
<nixternal> davidmac: well it is in kdesvn, but I believe it is seperate from the rest of KDE to an extent
<nixternal> I almost answered that as if it were PyQt
<jcastro> time for one more question
<Riddell> it's in kdebindings, released with the rest of KDE
<nixternal> ok
<nosrednaekim> Azag: QUESTION: Do you think that 2 grapich librares (GTK and QT) it is bad for Free Software? I mean, very good aplications like K3B and Amarok dont work at 100% in GTK (gnome or xfce) and GTK programs dont run at 100% in QT. It is not better to have one library?
<nixternal> oh ya, derr, you would think I would know that since I worked ont hat package
<nosrednaekim> ok jcastro
<nixternal> Azag: wow, tough one...I say it isn't, as it gives all of us a choice, but I do understand those who take the side of it being an issue with the free software adoption
<nixternal> we love choice, but not many people understand that choice...what I love is we have 2 really amazing platforms for you to pick from and learn to love either one
<nixternal>  
<nixternal> thanks again everyone for showing up, staying awake, and asking questions...I will be in #kubuntu-devel to field even more if you would like
<nixternal> ROCK ON EVERYONE!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Current session: "Producing Podcasts in Ubuntu" - Alan Pope
<Riddell> join us in #kubuntu-devel if you want to help develop Kubuntu
<jcastro> take it away popey!
<popey> uhoh
<popey> A challenge to those of you in #ubuntu-classroom-chat!
<popey> Put me off, distract me (in -chat, not here ;) ), try to ensure I _don't_ get to the end of the material I have prepared.
<popey> Ask questions, as many as you can think of, we'll take them as soon as we can, to make this more vibrant.
<popey> It's late here in the UK, I've had Fajitas and Beer, and I'm ready for the challenge! Bring it on!
<popey> Here's the core messages I want to get over
<popey> 1. It's possible to create, host and manage a (good) podcast using Ubuntu.
<popey> 2. It's mostly not about the software, it's more about the enthusiasm, infrastructure, process and community, community, community, community  (C) Jono Bacon
<popey> 3. The software is free, nothing payware or proprietary (if you avoid skype ;] )
<popey> 3a.  Only cost is hardware you may (optionally) buy, and the time you spend doing it
<popey> Schedule - here's what we plan to cover - see if you can stop me!
<popey>  * Introduction to the session
<popey>   * Introduction to us (who we are, why we do this)
<popey>   * Introduction to podcasting
<popey>   * Communication within the team
<popey>   * Preparation for an episode
<popey>   * Recording the episode
<popey>    * Hardware & Software involved
<popey>   * Post production
<popey>    * Editing, encoding
<popey>   * Publishing
<popey>    * Mirroring
<popey> Is anyone thinking or has considered _ever_ producing a podcast?
<popey> there's room for lots of podcasts!
<popey> think how many there are about windows or mac osx
<popey> there's not NEARLY enough about Linux Ubuntu
<popey> ok..
<popey> * Introduction to us
<popey> I'm Alan Pope (popey), also here may be Tony Whitmore (tonytiger), Dave Murphy (Schwuk), Ciemon (pronounced 'Simon') Dunville (CieD) and Dave (pronounced 'Oi! Get closer to the microphone!') Walker (Daviey)
<popey> unfortunately tony can't be with us, he's busy locked up in a hotel room with a laptop
<popey> We decided there was room in the market for a fixed duration, regularly released, family-friendly, Ubuntu CoC compliant podcast, so we made one.
<popey> All of this session is generated based on _our_ experience of podcasting, listening to other podcasts, and common sense.
<popey> None of it should be taken as raw facts, just our opinion, other people do things quite differently, very successfully, this way works for _us_.
<popey> Some of what we have done involves some scripts which I think we will tidy up and make available under a nice license.
<popey> thats right isnt it Daviey ?
<Daviey> yes!
<popey> yay!
<popey>  * Introduction to podcasting
<popey> In it's simplest form a podcast is a regular audio package delivered over http/ftp as an enclosure within an RSS feed.
<popey> Anyone can do it. All you need is a microphone, computer, and a way of hosting ( more on this later )
<popey> RSS is vital. It's no good just putting an audio file on a site and asking visitors to play/download it, although many do use this approach.
<popey> It's important to make it as easy as possible for people to get at the audio files you create.
<popey> This means supporting RSS and further to that having separate RSS feeds for different file formats (if you choose to support multiple file formats)
<popey> iTunes _is_ a big deal. Whilst it doesn't run on Linux, fact is that Windows is ~95% of the population and if Windows users form part of the target market, you should make it easy for them.
<popey> whilst i appreciate apple and itunes are considered evil, they represent a significant chunk of people
<popey> Other podcast download clients are available of course - ipodder, hpodder, juice receiver, bashpodder, rhythmbox, banshee etc
<popey> :)
<popey> Personally I use hpodder, what do you use?
<popey> I used to use ipodder, then juice, then finally hpodder
<popey> works for me
<popey> everyone has their own choice, which is great
<popey> becauase so long as you use standards like RSS, you're fine, it shouldnt matter what your "consumers" use
<popey> yay choice!
<popey> ok, moving on..
<popey> Some podcasters will record all sat in the same room (like LUGRadio podcast), some do theirs via Skype (like Freshubuntu podcast).
<popey> neither are doing it wrong, they both produce popular podcasts
<popey> it's important to note there is no _right_ way to do it
<popey> so long as you produce good content that is engaging, it doesnt matter
<popey> We all sit in one room, but sometimes record stuff separately and mix it in later. see Episode 1 (FOSDEM segment) for example
<popey> Sometimes we take phone calls during the show - see Episode 4 (Mark Shuttleworth interview) for example
<popey> Now the absultely most vital thing of all!
<popey> I can't stress this enough!
<Daviey> CAKE
<popey> * Communication is important both between members of the team, and between the team and non-team members (listeners and contributors)
<popey> hah
<popey> We talk to each other electronically pretty much every day
<popey> We have an email address which forwards to all members of the podcast team.
<popey> you could use a gmail account or if you have your own hosting, set up a single address which forwards to your team
<popey> this is essential to keep everyone in the loop
<popey> If we mail anyone we generally cc: the podcast email address so everyone is kept in the loop.
<popey> and if for some reason anyone cant make it, the podcast still gets made
<popey> shall we take some questions?
<popey> Daviey: any questions?
<popey> bet he went off for a cigarette
 * popey pokes Daviey in the face with a pair of scissors
<Daviey>  Lardarse> QUESTION: relating to core message #2: Are there any viable
<Daviey>           free VoIP solutions that work on Ubuntu?
<Daviey> You caught me offguard
<popey> heh
<popey> offguard = outside?
<popey> yes, Lardarse !
<popey> Daviey: tell him how we do it
<popey> *poke* *poke*
<Daviey> Well, _we_ do it one way.. Currently we are using a SIP hardphone connected to an audio mixer that connects to the rest of the loop
<popey> you have an asterisk server dont you?
<Daviey> so we can all hear the call through our headphones, and all use our standard mics
<popey> (more about mics later)
<Daviey> Yeah, the SIP phone connects to an asterisk server, to dial normal numbers
<popey> but we could use a desktop sip client like ekiga?
<Daviey> however, there isn't a reason you couldn't use gizmo/ekiga et al
<popey> in theory?
<popey> cool
<popey> next question?
<popey> or shall we move on?
<Daviey> < davidmac> QUESTION: What is a "Ubuntu CoC compliant podcast"?
<popey> Code of Conduct
<popey> we figured it was important to make sure we dont do anything that breaches the code of conduct that half of us have signed
<popey> :)
<popey> moving on...
<popey> this is a vital section
<popey> no, not cake!
<popey> * Preparation for the episode
<popey> We have a private wiki (only accessible by members of the podcast 'team' - in order to have some level of secrecy of content)
<Daviey>  < leftyfb> QUESTION: last I checked, Ekiga doesn't do conferencing. Only 1 to 1 communication. Are there any "free"
<Daviey>                  apps for voip conferencing? Like skype.
<popey> I'll come back to that Daviey
<popey> We create a new page for each episode eg. S01E05 and paste in anything we didn't get time to do on the previous episode.
<popey> During the two weeks between episodes we populate the wiki with ideas etc.
<popey> We discuss on irc and via email - very regularly.
<popey> Between the two recordings we populate the wiki page so it has the basic framework of the content of the show - no script, just bullet points
<popey> The day before the date scheduled for recording, we roughly set the running order, and the order of recording, and contact any interviewees to confirm times
<popey> Also on the day before, we put the contents of the wiki into a gobby document, leading up to and during the podcast we collaboratively edit the schedule as we go in gobby
<popey> gobby rocks
 * popey hugs pkern
<popey>   (We all have laptops open editing the gobby doc during recording)
<popey> ok, one more short section then back to the questions
<popey> * Hardware and software
<popey> Simplest set up would be a cheap microphone (or laptop with embedded mic) and audacity. Hit record, speak, press stop.
<popey> many podcasts are made like this
<popey> lottalinuxlinks guy does his in the car on the way to work!
<popey> More advanced: multiple microphones, stands, simple mixer (like Alan's)
<popey> (I have a simple mackie 2 channel mixer, which has 2 xlr inputs for "proper" microphones)
<popey> Even more advanced: More microphones (one per speaker), larger mixer. Could still record onto laptop/PC (probably worth looking at Ubuntu Studio & low latency kernels)
<popey> to a recording device (like a Zoom H4 or similar).
<popey> (this is what we do)
<popey> Each speaker on our podcast has a Shure SM58 on a mic stand, plugged into a mixer, we have a headphone monitor too, so we can all hear how we sound
<popey> this is potentially massive over kill
<popey> it does result in quite a good sound, if we get the audio right (which we dont always)  but costs money
<popey> Yet further advanced: Telephone balance unit, multi-channel interface between mixer and PC (firewire or USB). Allows for more complex remixing after the recording session.
<popey> We dont do that
<popey> :)
<popey> That's for the twit.tv setups, not for the two-bit podcasts like ours
<popey> ok, questions, Daviey wakey wakey
<CieD> <davidmac> QUESTION:  What bit rate do you average when recording, what specs like sampling rate, etc?
<popey> good question
<popey> no clue
<CieD> We have submission guidlines on the site
<popey> download an episode and have a look at the files to find out :)
<CieD> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/audio-submission-guidelines/
<popey> tony does most of the encoding
<popey> and he has a funky script which does the encoding
<Daviey> which he has FOSS'd
<popey> if i remember correctly the high quality ones are stereo
<CieD> 44.1KHz stereo WAV PCM
<popey> the low quality ones are mono
<popey> oh, of course
<popey> when recording, duh
<popey> recording yes wav 44.1K
<CieD> <leftyfb> QUESTION: last I checked, Ekiga doesn't do conferencing. Only 1 to 1 communication. Are there any "free" apps for voip  conferencing? Like skype.
<popey> good question
<popey> gizmo5 does
<popey> and has a built in recordeer function
<popey> penguincentral podcast used gizmo5
<popey> and i know the shomedo guys have a conference call regularly which is recorded with gizmo5
<popey> multiplatform too, so if the person you are interviewing isnt a linux person they can still get involved
<popey> next ?
<Daviey>  < jerichokb> QUESTION: How much of your material comes initially from the community - i.e. e-mail suggestions from outside the inner podcast circle?
<popey> Good question!
<popey> lets take ep4 (latest) as an example
<popey> ian (of showmedo) was on, I contacted him
<popey> Graham Bleach was on, he contacted us
<popey> Mark Shuttleworth was on, he contacted us
<popey> so in ep4 66% ish
<popey> was from outside us
<popey> ok, lets move on to interviews...
<popey> * Some shows have interviews which can be done in a number of ways.
<popey> Two (or more) people and one microphone with a portable recording unit.
<popey> or laptop of course
<popey>  - Option one here is a Zoom H4 handheld solid state recording device with built in Mic (Used for FOSDEM seg in Ep1)
<popey>  - Option two here is a Mic and an iRiver H140 and two pairs of headphones (as yet unused in our podcast)
<popey> option 1 came out really well, a handheld recorder is very useful, if a bit expensive, but of course, you can get cheaper than the zoom h4 that we use (and are lucky enough to borrow!)
<popey> the iriver is a great bit of kit, you can get them cheap on ebay, and with a simple mic and two sets of headphones (one for you, one for the interviewee) you're sorted!
<popey> Telephone call into the show. For this we have a SIP phone (Linksys) which has phono connectors which we take the audio feed out of (and into).
<popey> Skype one on one (or conference) recorded by the interviewer (as yet unused by us, but used by many other podcasts)
<popey> skype is a tricky thing
<popey> depends how much you're into freedom
<popey> and how much you want to produce a good podcast over sacrificing your morals :S
<popey> how does everyone feel about skype?
<popey> evil, should not be touched? or a necessary evil?
<popey> it's a shame to _have_ to use it, or have no interview, I know some podcasts simply wouldn't exist without skype
<popey> ok, the next section is a little about the editing process
<popey> I have to confess to not knowing massive amounts about it
<popey> tony does this bit :)
 * popey hugs tonytiger
<popey> but here's what tony does!
<popey> Audacity. Open each track, normalise to 0db. Listen through (perhaps at high speed) and note down which bits have actual content in.
<popey> Chop those bits into a new project on separate tracks. Listen through each bit carefully thinking what is relevant to the subject matter and whether it fits in the flow of the conversation.
<popey> Move chunks of speech around if necessary. Remove irrelevant bits. This is the editorial process. Also listen for technical faults, background noise.
<popey> (like tonys cats or my baby son)
<popey> Listen for speakers not quite assembling sentences properly or false starts which can be chopped out where possible.
<popey> (like Daviey )
<popey> Listen through and chop gaps, erms and coughs where possible, leaving breathing pauses in although perhaps shortened.
<Daviey> oi, i did it once!
<popey> :)
<popey> hey, tonys notes :)
<popey> Polish edits (with crossfades etc. as necessary). Mix down and export as stereo WAV. Typically 20 minutes recording will be 7 minutes "off-air" comment, 13 minutes proper content.
<popey> This will come down to 8-10 minutes once edited. Decide whether to drop a segment entirely (or hold for a future episode) depending on duration of overall show and quality of segment.
<popey> so in a nutshell tony is great, he takes the utter crap we talk about and makes it sound good
<popey> round of applause for tony!
<popey> *clap* *clap* !
<CieD> \o/
<popey> Thats not even the end!
<popey> In ardour!
<popey> Import each studio WAV onto the studio track. Import intro and outro music and news bed into music track.
<popey> Import sting into the sting track. Adjust volume settings as necessary for fade in/out of the music.
<popey> Listen to track joins etc., adjust fade times to suit. Set up compression, limiter, EQ etc. (LADSPA plugins) on studio track as necessary and adjust settings.
<popey> Export WAV and test (including opening in audacity and looking for unusual peaks.) Adjust settings and repeat as necessary. * LADPSA plugins (ubuntustudio-audio-plugins)
<popey> ok, once we have the final wav, we then encode it!
<popey> MP3 encoding using LAME or other converter.
<popey> (check legality of mp3 encoding in your territory :S )
<popey> OGG encoding using oggenc or other converter.
<popey> SPEEX or FLAC?
<popey> Tony has made this easy with a great script...
<popey> Podcoder (shell script to encode, set tags and embed image: http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/cgi-local/darcsweb.cgi?r=podcoder;a=summary  http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/repos/podcoder/
<popey> any questions CieD Daviey ?
<CieD> yep... Daviey?
<Daviey> < CafeNinja> QUESTION: If someone was using the cheap audio setup you described, is there any advice you would recommend for them to try and achive good audio quality?
<popey> record and listen to yourself
<popey> get others to listen to test recordings
<popey> relax when you record
<popey> have a go at recording yourself having a conversation with a friend
<popey> not an interview, just a chat
<popey> see how it comes out
<popey> micrphones are one of the keys
<popey> I would _highly_ recommend downloading and watching the first ~6 episodes of Gear media Tech podcast
<popey> they do reviews of lots of mics
<popey> they talk about the technology and the difference between the differnet mics
<popey> some needing a mixer, some very simple with a USB interface
<popey> well worth a watch
<CieD> <jerichokb> QUESTION: you have a voicemail box number for people to leave short audio messages. how is that set up?
<popey> sipgate.co.uk
<popey> register, job done
<popey> however!
<popey> I have taken a LOT of flak for choosing an 0845 number which is apparently expsnsive to dial
<popey> we will likely change to a geographic number whcih is cheaper for listeners to call
<popey> ok, lets move on
<popey> Hosting!
<popey> * The website itself is an Ubuntu Feisty Server (provided for free by Bitfolk.com - thanks) with Wordpress and some plugins:-
<popey> Bitfolk rock! Thank you bitfolk!
<popey>  * Podpress - manages part of the delivery of podcasts, tracks stats and makes sure the RSS feeds have the enclosures
<popey>  * Akismet - detects spam in comments
<popey>  * Advanced Category Excluder - To prevent duplicate posts appearing on the front page
<popey>  * Fullscreen for WP Super Edit - To make editing the posts easily
<popey>  * Wordpress Automatic Upgrade - To upgrade wordpress promptly
<popey> in short, wordpress works brilliantly for us!
<popey> very simple, and does eexactly whats needed
<popey> * Feedburner.com
<popey>  * 3rd party site that turns our wordpress-generated RSS feeds into something that is usable by most podcast clients.
<popey>  * Reduces load on our server as podcast clients check our site for updates.
<popey>  * Produces some wicked stats.....
<popey> Here are some stats about our podcast....
<popey>  "We have made only 4 episodes"
<popey> (not a great stat that one)
<popey>  "We have shifted over 320GiB in bandwidth"
<popey>  "We have delivered over 13000 files"
<popey> (mp3 and ogg only)
<popey>  "Ogg accounts for 54.1% of our listeners."
<popey> (interesting...)
<popey>  "86.93% listen in high quality (47.29% in Ogg)."
<popey>  "We average 3376 downloads per show."
<popey>  "Our average show length is 00:39:52."
<popey>  "% of listeners in low quality has dropped from 15% (1st show) to ~10%(current show)."
<popey>   - Of course the figures are skewed because the counts are still low for ep4
<popey>   - it's actually closer to ~12%.
<popey>  The telling question is: would we lose those listeners if we dropped the low quality version?
<popey> ok, last two sections, mirroring and load balancing
<popey> technically not required, but we figured it would be nice to setup to future proof ourselves for when we are the MOST POPULAR PODACST IN THE WORLD!
<popey> MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<popey>  The telling question is: would we lose those listeners if we dropped the low quality version?
<popey> erk
<popey> * Mirroring
<popey> We have had generous donations from people willing to host the podcast. We now have 7 mirrors which we setup dns aliases for.
<popey> the dns aliases work like this..
<popey> XX-YY-N - XX = ISO country code, YY = City, N = Number, to identify them. We don't _have_ to do this but it is nice to do, and allows for easy admin and expansion.
<popey> so we have uk-lo-0 which is UK, London, mirror 0
<popey> and others like us-sf-0 which is US, San Fran, mirror 0
<popey> We have rsync service setup on the main site (where the website is hosted) which is where the MP3 and OGG files get put initially.
<popey> Each mirror uses rsync (or wget or ftp or whatever) to get updated every hour or so.
<popey> We only release every other week so it's not that vital, and doesn't cause huge traffic for each mirror to check in regularly.
<popey> Thanks to Clerkwell.co.uk & Bitfolk.com for providing two mirrors each and Naffallo and Showmedo.com also for hosting mirrors for us. (I host one too) [making 7]
<popey> all of those mirrors were donated by the community
<popey> remember right at the start I said that community is the best part of this!
<popey> it's true!
<popey> final section - nearly finished :)
<popey> * Load balancing
<popey> We have a script on the main server which has access to a small database listing the mirrors and their priority (to take account of peoples bandwidth allocations)
<popey> When we publish a podcast to the site, assuming all the mirrors are up to date, we specify urls to the podcast which actually point to the script
<popey> Publishing consists of creating 5 pages in wordpress, a main one linking to the various formats which is published to the front page.
<popey> The other 4 pages are not published to the front page (thanks to Advanced Category Excluder) but are used to make the RSS feeds for the various formats of files.
<popey> When users request the MP3 and OGG files, the script looks up the available mirrors and redirects the user to the file on the mirror
<popey> Some people get in early, and get the files directly from the mirrors, bypassing our script (this makes us sad :( because we can't count those stats)
<popey> any more questions CieD Daviey ?
<Daviey> < jerichokb> QUESTION: whose was the best limerick? :P
<Daviey> (requires background)
<popey> listen to the podcast to find out
<popey> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/
<popey> specifically episode 4
<popey> Worth noting that we - all of us - are more than happy to help any other ubuntu people to setup their own podcasts
<CieD>  <Coli2> <Question> When is Ubuntu-UK Podcast LIVE ? :-P
<popey> we dont think that we should be the only loco doing this - every loco should have their own podcast
<popey> if we can help we will
<popey> hahah
<Daviey> just don;t do better than us :)
<popey> Coli2: you missed it, it was last thursday and I was buying the beer!
<popey> well I think thats it
<popey> thanks very much for watching/listening
<Daviey> Remember, we are always looking for submissions.. contact us if you want to help!
<popey> and dont forget over the next 8 months we have money-off voucher competitions for the canonical store! Listen to the podcast for details!
<popey> :D
<popey> thanks jcastro
<jcastro> thanks guys!
<jcastro> Ok, we're done for the day, see you at 1500UTC tomorrow for more sessions!
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-01
<jcastro> Schedule Change: This morning we will start with Mark Shuttleworth Q+A
<jcastro> We apologize for the last minute change
<jcastro> Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth
<jcastro> oops
<jcastro> Thanks for being patient everyone, Mark is on his way
<sabdfl> hello all
<jcastro> Welcome sabdfl
<sabdfl> hey jcastro
<sabdfl> what's the format?
<jcastro> Ok everyone, thanks for being patient, please start asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> sabdfl: popey and I will paste questions here, you answer, when you want the next one just say "next"
<popey> jcastro: you doing this or me?
<popey> lo sabdfl
<sabdfl> this is the easiest set of questions *ever* ;-p
<popey> 16:17:44 < toobuntu> QUESTION: For easing corporate deployments, it would be nice to have tasksel options for installing a directory server and a workstation that authenticates to that server with  automounted home dirs.  Do you see Ubuntu heading in the direction of more installer options on the alternate CD?
<sabdfl> That sounds reasonable, yes.
<sabdfl> the server team is now in pretty good shape, they did amazing work for 8.04
<sabdfl> both on the hardware enablement front and at the level of specific services
<sabdfl> directory is a focus, and AD integration saw a lot of work, with Likewise
<sabdfl> as for the specifics, it would be best to join the server team and participate there
<sabdfl> who's up next?
<popey> 16:18:34 < qense> QUESTION: When you're a student or someone who has just graduated, what jobs(parttime?) does Ubuntu/Canonical offer for you?
<popey> 16:19:11 < qense> (adding to my question: what type of work, how much, parttime?)
<sabdfl> we have relatively limited scope for part time folks
<sabdfl> we have done some summer internships, working on things like bzr
<sabdfl> guys have contributed good chunks of code on that basis
<sabdfl> but the core of canonical is generally full-time, committed employment
<sabdfl> in addition to that, we are starting to work with folks who become certified professionals around ubuntu, or bzr
<sabdfl> so, a company approaches canonical for expertise, and we project manage but outsource the work to a known-good professional
<sabdfl> the best way to win a job at canonical is to demonstrate real competence in some aspect of ubuntu
<sabdfl> next ?
<popey> 16:18:49 < Lardarse> QUESTION: What are your plans and/or visions for the 3rd "phase" of Ubuntu development?
<popey> Lardarse may want to elaborate?
<Amaranth> Meaning until the next LTS
<sabdfl> right now, we need to become commercially successful while retaining our community engagement
<sabdfl> we think ubuntu is uniquely positioned to be an open, community oriented but nonetheless commercially viable platform
<sabdfl> we know that people love ubuntu as a desktop and as a project
<sabdfl> now we need to see if they will deploy it as a commercially-critical platform
<sabdfl> if we can succeed in that, it will mean that all of our members can start to treat ubuntu both as a passion and as a source of commercial opportunity
<sabdfl> it will increase the value of ubuntu skills
<sabdfl> and karma ;-)
<sabdfl> that's a significant challenge - the project has grown, and the community has scaled (relatively) well
<sabdfl> we have good delegated leadership on many of our community fronts - loco's, irc/forum/list councils etc
<sabdfl> we have motu, and dedicated teams for server, mobile, desktop, bugs, translation etc
<sabdfl> that's all pretty amazing
<sabdfl> now, can we keep those folks passionate and engaged while ubuntu becomes a platform that businesses depend on?
<sabdfl> so, that's what I see as the real next phase of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> as for the technology, we are certainly starting a new meta-cycle
<sabdfl> the next LTS will be 10.04
<sabdfl> unless red hat and novell agree to sync LTS / RHEL / SLES and want a different "first sync release" date
<sabdfl> so, we are thinking now about the things we want to get done over the two years to 10.04
<sabdfl> the first major discussions will be at UDS-Prague, hope to see lots of you there
<sabdfl> things I expect to be on the table are:
<sabdfl>  - pervasive networking, roaming from 3G to WiFi and WiMax or Bluetooth
<sabdfl>  - desktop technology investments - I think we need to look at energising GNOME, and perhaps Ubuntu / Canonical can help
<sabdfl>  - virtualisation, based on KVM or Xen, focused on the use of Ubuntu in the cloud
<sabdfl>  - mobile, MID's and smartphones
<sabdfl> ... and of course a bunch more
<sabdfl> i'm willing to make an investment in upstream development on the desktop now
<sabdfl> if i can see a vision articulated by developers that i believe can actually deliver it
<sabdfl> which will put Linux ahead of the Mac or Windows in terms of experience
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> related to part of that...
<popey> 16:20:02 < rick_h_> QUESTION: how has the talk about trying to bring release dates for most of the big OSS apps gone? Do you think this is something viable for most OSS projects?
<sabdfl> yes, I think it is very viable for OSS projects
<sabdfl> GNOME has shown that it's very possible, even for complicated projects
<sabdfl> i'm delighted that KDE has said they will try it too!
<sabdfl> with distributed VCS like Bzr, it's much more feasible to land features "when they are ready"
<sabdfl> which means you can release almost at any time!
<sabdfl> and with test-driven development, you can maintain much higher code quality even as big new features get landed
<sabdfl> all of that means that OSS projects should be able to embrace time-based releases
<sabdfl> and syncronization makes sense
<sabdfl> whether or not Red Hat and Novell will agree to syncronise major releases is totally unclear
<sabdfl> but i think it would have huge benefits for collaboration
<sabdfl> imagine if the kernel guys knew exactly which version of the kernel the distros would all ship on their long-term releases, a year in advance!
<sabdfl> at the very least, i think they would make sensible decisions about how they responded to that
<sabdfl> so, we'll see
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:20:15 < nikolaidis> QUESTION: (when) Can we expect to see an option during setup to allow authentication against an Active Directory/LDAP server so an end-user can easily join an existing Microsoft business network?
<sabdfl> i don't know!
<sabdfl> but the infrastructure for that, with Likewise, went in to 8.04
<sabdfl> that sounds like something that should be discussed with the desktop team at UDS
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:20:30 < toobuntu> QUESTION: When will Canonical have its IPO?
<popey> 16:20:44 < doctormo> QUESTION: Does Canonical need an IPO?
<sabdfl> no need for an IPO
<sabdfl> the plan is to build Canonical and Ubuntu until they are sustainable
<sabdfl> then make the best decisions for the project and the company
<sabdfl> impossible to know far in advance what those might be
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:20:45 < madrazr> QUESTION: My institution uses Windows IIS on it server. Its a HP server, I donno the exact configuration. We are facing lot of problems with respect to maintainance. We students and admins want to migrate to a GNU/Linux distro and we prefer Ubuntu, but convincing the management is a big task, because management feels there is no one knows the maintainance properly. How will Ubuntu/Canonical help us?
<popey> realted..
<sabdfl> interesting question
<popey> 16:21:03 < aoakley> QUESTION: When I try to convince people to migrate to Ubuntu, usually their main question is whether they can browse the web and open/edit Microsoft Word documents. What will Canonical be doing to increase awareness of OpenOffice?
<sabdfl> Your institution could easily buy a support contract for Ubuntu from Canonical
<sabdfl> and there may be other local companies that could provide support too
<sabdfl> I don't think we can spend a lot on trying to convince your management to adopt Ubuntu unless they would buy a support contract
<sabdfl> that's a question for local advocates
<sabdfl> aoakley: i think OO.o is quite obviously enabled in the desktop
<sabdfl> some of the UI ideas we are looking at for the 10.04 cycle make it more obvious, because that's such a common use case
<sabdfl> when you double-click on a .doc attachment, the right thing happens
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:21:40 < ubunturos> QUESTION: Has there been considerable increase in profit margins from the last LTS release assuming most enterprises have opted for it
<sabdfl> there's been a considerable increase in evaluations, but we are still very young in the enterprise OS game
<sabdfl> canonical isn't profitable yet, but the LTS releases are very important for the support business, yes
<sabdfl> because folks who are interested in support are usually also folks who want to run the OS for long periods of time, on the server
<sabdfl> and on the desktop
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:22:01 < Solarion> QUESTION: What does Canonical offer for computing cluster management?
<sabdfl> I know there are clusters running Ubuntu
<sabdfl> and there are a couple of tools, like specialised filesystems, which are available
<sabdfl> but I don't know more than that
<sabdfl> the server team would have more insight, chat with dendrobates perhaps?
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:22:34 < selinuxium> QUESTION: Is there any thought following on from the JeOS project that Ubuntu will build a lightweight VM host OS?
<sabdfl> well, with KVM in 8.04, you have the beginnings of that
<sabdfl> to be a really goot host you need more than an OS, though
<sabdfl> you need all the infrastructure provided by companies like VMWare or Qumranet, or XenSource
<sabdfl> i think Ubuntu will become a great bare-metal host OS
<sabdfl> but I assume that there will be a need for a lot more management infrastructure
<sabdfl> we will partner with the companies that develop that infrastructure, encourage and support their use of Ubuntu, but leave them to profit from that infrastructure itself while we focus on the OS
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:22:38 < sadiq> QUESTION: What are your thoughts on the progress UbuntuMobile's been making? Have you received much interest from OEM hardware manufacturers?
<sabdfl> sadiq: yes, we have more work than we can handle on the mobile front, but it's still very early days
<sabdfl> the devices we are working on are "round one" devices, they would be used to get other manufacturers interested in the round two's
<sabdfl> i think it's going to take a few years for the Ubuntu Mobile story to shake out
<sabdfl> though, for folks who know exactly what they want to deliver, Ubuntu is already a good platform
<sabdfl> i think Ampro announced an embedded Ubuntu port recently, for example
<sabdfl> Intel is doing very good work on Moblin
<sabdfl> i hope other companies get involved too, so that it can become a broader-based open source initiative
<sabdfl> Intel is a pelasure to work with from an open source perspective
<sabdfl> so I am confident in their understanding of "what makes a good open source project"
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:22:58 < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: Do you believe the news of Adobe opening their SFW and FLV formats will help Ubuntu, or Linux in general, in any fashion? ( http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/ )
<sabdfl> yes, absolutely
<sabdfl> because like the web, it separates application from OS
<sabdfl> the web has made people much more willing to consider non-Windows OS's
<sabdfl> because they perceive the real value to be inside the browser, and Linux / Mac both have good browsers
<sabdfl> hopefully, Adobe's leadership will do the same for other areas
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:23:38 < BluesKaj> Question: why KDE4 ?...it's broken and it's awful
<popey> :S
<sabdfl> (i would still like to see Gnash take off)
<sabdfl>  BluesKaj: it's a 1.0 for 4.0 ;-)
<sabdfl> i think it's pretty awesome, personally
<sabdfl> have played with it some, not too extensively though
<Hobbsee> I was about to say....awful is a matter of opinion....
<sabdfl> i think the Kubuntu team made a good choice in doing an unofficial remix of Kubuntu-KDE4
<Hobbsee> It's certainly improving very quickly.
<sabdfl> it's available for those who want it, but it's not pushed to everyone automatically
<sabdfl> hopefully, Kubuntu helps to get very widespread testing, which results in rapid improvement of the codebase
<sabdfl> so we can make KDE4 the default in Kubuntu sooner rather than later
<sabdfl> RIddell will make the right choice, I'm sure
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:23:55 < tech0007> QUESTION:  is it true that Dell is not offering ubuntu on its server markets?
<sabdfl> yes, that's true, dell does not off pre-installation of Ubuntu on servers in their default web configurator
<sabdfl> if you are ordering servers in bulk, just ask for it
<sabdfl> i don't see any problem with that - dell will wait till enough customers tell them they bought something else because they didn't offer ubuntu
<sabdfl> we have to prove that there's real commercial demand for ubuntu
<sabdfl> so, if you are buying Dell servers, make sure you email them and ask about Ubuntu, because it helps to make the case
<sabdfl> but your "vote" carries a lot more weight if you are really buying servers
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:25:59 < yann2> QUESTION: Do you plan to stop shipping CDs for free to become economically profitable faster?
<sabdfl> if we needed to, we could do that, yes
<sabdfl> but i love the fact that we make it easy for people to try free software, feel very good about the spend on CD's, and don't really see a need not to
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:26:13 < J-_> QUESTION: From the business aspect, can you recommend a good book to read on investments, and how to get the ball rolling? How does one start up a Venture Capital company to deloy an ongoing business relation of reinvestment? Thanks for what you've done, and how you're doing it.
<sabdfl> J-_: read the writing of a guy called Benjamin Graham
<sabdfl> back in the early 1900's IIRC
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:26:32 < michaelramm> QUESTION: Why was a beta candidate (Firefox) released with the final HH release? Most add-ons do not work currently and, from what I am hearing, it is hard to remove Beta 5 and replace it with FF2 to resume productive web surfing.
 * Hobbsee already answered that
<sabdfl> we'll push FF 3.0 RC into 8.04 in due course
<sabdfl> expect 8.04 RC for 8.04.1 in two months time
<Hobbsee> and there's a firefox-2 package.
<sabdfl> July
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:38:39 < Solarion> QUESTION: When can we expect Ubuntu/Linux advertisements on TV?
<sabdfl> Solarion: when it makes economic sense
<sabdfl> you will probably see advertisements for Ubuntu based devices, which is not quite the same thing, first
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:26:47 < chad_W> QUESTION: Have they learned from the servers going down 2 releases in a row now? Plans for improvement?
<sabdfl> chad_W: heh. we were pumping 10gbits per second out of the DC in London
<sabdfl> i think that's pretty amazing
<sabdfl> and we have 200 mirrors
<sabdfl> i have to compliment the team for keeping most services up under that load
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> [01:49] <aoakley> QUESTION: Every good project has continuity plans to avoid reliance on key individuals in case the worst happens. Can we be confident that Ubuntu will continue as a  successful legacy in the (hopefully never) situation that you were to fall under a bus? (A young programmer friend of mine sadly died last year leaving all kinds of mess)
<sabdfl> i hope my demise would not be messy
<sabdfl> in practice, or in law :-)
<sabdfl> of course, i think i'm irreplaceable, but fortunately most of the leaders in ubuntu and canonical don't agree
<sabdfl> there are plans in my will to continue ubuntu, and canonical, on a reasonable basis
<sabdfl> and there are very good people who lead all of the key teams
<sabdfl> next?
<popey> 16:31:14 < doctormo> QUESTION: For home use of ubuntu the biggest barrier is support, what thoughts does Mark have on helping LoCos collectivly offer that support in a way that is accountable?
<sabdfl> no significant plans in that regard
<sabdfl> the loco's do a critical job of raising awareness of Linux as a real alternative
<sabdfl> and their very existence provides encouraging evidence of a local support network
<sabdfl> which is what really matters
<jcastro> Ok, that about does it for time.
<sabdfl> nobody buys windows to get support from microsoft
<sabdfl> they want support from local specialists and service providers
<sabdfl> and loco teams, together with the growing network of companies offering local services on ubuntu, play that role
<sabdfl> thanks very much everybody!
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for showing up, and thanks sabdfl for sepeaking, next up is Christer Edwards who will share his tips on running Ubuntu on the Eee PC.
<sabdfl> sorry we only had an hour this time
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu on the Eee PC" - Christer Edwards
<Zelut> ,--8<-
<Zelut> |== Introduction ==
<Zelut> |
<Zelut> |Welcome to the "Ubuntu on the EeePC" Presentation.  Glad to see everyone here!
<Zelut> |I think this is a really cool sub-notebook which has really taken off!
<Zelut> |
<Zelut> |UPDATE: Linux Journal Magazine has declared the Asus EeePC the "Linux Product of the Year!"
<Zelut> `-->8-
<Zelut> sorry, bad paste there.
<Zelut> I'll be presenting on the EeePC and using Ubuntu on the EeePC.  Stick around till the end, I have some cool screenshots :)
<Zelut> I should mention that I don't represent the EeePC in any official sense, its just my new favorite laptop.
<Zelut> I have done quite a bit of documentation on getting in going well on ubuntu.
<Zelut> As a basic outline today I'll be going over the following:
<Zelut>  - Specs on the current and future EeePC
<Zelut>  - Who might want an EeePC?
<Zelut>  - Get Ubuntu on that sucker!
<Zelut>  - Screenshots Baby!
<Zelut>  - Plans for the future
<Zelut> A little bit about the history and specs for the machine.
<Zelut> The Asus EeePC was designed by Asus and Intel and released in the US and UK in the latter part of 2007.
<Zelut> It is known for its lightweight, portability and Linux default OS (Xandros variant)
<Zelut> The 700 and 701 series are the most widely used at this point, the 900 series coming soon.
<Zelut> The model that I have, which is the basis of most of my documentation (community wiki + my blog) is the 4G 701 series:
<Zelut>  - 512M RAM (upgraded to 2G for $35. NewEgg FTW!)
<Zelut>  - 4G solid-state flash drive (added 2G via MMC/SD slot, mounted as /home)
<Zelut>  - 7 inch TFT LCD (800x480 resolution)
<Zelut>  - 900 MHz intel celeron, factory underclocked (can be overclocked)
<Zelut> Intel 915 integrated graphics card (Yes, Compiz works on the EeePC!)
<Zelut>  - 4 cell battery (3-3.5hr battery life)
<Zelut>  - 10/100 wired, 802.11b/g wireless (both atheros drivers)
<Zelut>  - weighs about 2lb
<Zelut>  - $399 US at the time I bought it.
<Zelut> Its just super tiny, easy to carry around. My boss refers to it as my "laptoplet"
<Zelut> The new 900 series improves on the 701 series by increasing specs, including:
<Zelut>  - 8.9" display (1024x600)
<Zelut>  - 4G + 16G (SD) for 20G total flash storage.  (only 12G if you buy it with XP.)
<Zelut>  - 900 MHz processor (basically just not underclocked)
<Zelut>  - 1G DDR (upgradable to 2G)
<Zelut>  - 4 cell battery (2.5hr battery life)
<Zelut>  - $549 US is the estimated price.
<Zelut> So, that's a bunch of specs.  As you can see its not a powerhouse but its definitely usable!
<Zelut> I run this EeePC as my production, primary machine most of the time and I'm perfectly productive.
<Zelut> Who might want an EeePC?
<Zelut> I tihnk it works great for normal users.  Web, email, chat, code, etc.  All of those things work just fine.
<Zelut> its super lightweight.  its tiny.  Great for traveling.
<Zelut> I travel two-weeks per month for my job and my EeePC is what I take a long with me.
<Zelut> works just great.
<Zelut> People who might *not* want an EeePC?
<Zelut> probably everyone who left the room before when we started :)
<Zelut> gamers
<Zelut> my dad (he can't see his 800x600 LCD)
<Zelut> ...giant people with abnormally fat-fingers
<Zelut> I have big hands and I can type on it just fine.  Its the only laptop that I can palm like a basketball! :)
<Zelut> So what are some of the complications of installing Ubuntu on the EeePC?
<Zelut>  1) no optical drive so installation has to be done another way
<Zelut>   - USB installer (migrating .iso to USB), USB CDROM or PXE based
<Zelut>   - boot.img.gz on USB boot + network install is my preferred method
<Zelut>  2) It uses solid state flash media, which will wear out faster than traditional drives
<Zelut>   - ext3 is arguably fine with noatime or relatime.  Maybe ext2 if you prefer no journaling.
<Zelut>   - no swap is common for gaining additional drive space and avoid swap writes to disk
<Zelut>   - 4G drive doesn't leave a lot of space for additional stuff after installation
<Zelut>   - I have 100M /boot, 3.9G /, 2G /home.  All ext3 and no swap.
<Zelut>   - The 2G /home is via an SD card I've added
<Zelut>  3) 800x480 is not a lot of screen real estate!
<Zelut>   - Gnome can be shrunk quite a bit!  You'd be surprised.
<Zelut>   - I also suggest gnome-do --mini for navigation. (screenshot later)
<Zelut>   - My desktop has no menu, auto-shrinking panel + gnome-do.
<Zelut>  4) Wireless does not work out of the box.. (surprised?)
<Zelut>   - Takes about 5 commands to compile the driver -- not hard at all.
<Zelut>   - ndiswrapper is also available.. if you're into that sort of thing ;)
<Zelut>  5) Overclocking or "I want my 300Mhz back!"
<Zelut>   - The EeePC is fairly easy to overclock to the 900Mhz but its not "supported"
<Zelut>   - I've run mine overclocked and it works great.  Actually "bursts" to 900Mhz when needed but idles at the 630Mhz
<Zelut>  6) ACPI support is not 100%
<Zelut>   - instructions also on the wiki for this.  Fairly simple package installation
<Zelut>   7) Not all the hotkeys are supported
<Zelut>   - Also, documented how to get this working.  not complicated.
<Zelut> So, now that I've mentioned all the difficulties and you've left the room, what *does* work?
<Zelut> Remember, it all *does* work it just needs to be configured.
<Zelut> The wireless for example isn't shipped because part of the driver is non-free.  We *can't* ship it.
<Zelut> The Desktop needs to be customized because, well, not many displays are this small.
<Zelut> solid state flash media is still fairly new so configuring for that is also something a little "non-standard"
<Zelut> The EeePC is not your normal desktop/laptop, which is what Ubuntu Desktop is normally aimed for of course.
<Zelut> with just a little customization we can get everything working and it makes for a nice, easy to use machine.
<Zelut> Plus, another thing to note is that the default os, Xandros, is also a debian variant so I'm sure spending a little time with them and we can get everything supported the same way they do.
<Zelut> It'll just take a bit of communication, something that I'm more than happy to work towards.
<Zelut> I would love to see the EeePC fully supported by Ubuntu 8.10, and I *will* work towards getting that done.
<Zelut> I love this little thing, and if any distribution can excel at supporting hardware & making a great desktop experience its Ubuntu!
<Zelut> Now, let me share some screenshots of the EeePC desktop after Ubuntu is installed.
<Zelut> I did a fresh install just last nite of Ubuntu 8.04.
<Zelut> After using the UI shrinking tweaks that we have on the wiki it looks a bit like this:
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/mini-desktop.png
<Zelut> basically we've just shrunk everything down to size.
<Zelut> I then like to shrink that down even more & add gnome-do for navigation.  That looks a bit like this:
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/gnome-do-mini.png
<Zelut> That uses a auto-shrinking single panel + gnome-do for all navigation.  That adds a bit more real estate.
<Zelut> ..and a few screenshots for common applications:
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/gnome-terminal.png
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/pidgin-twitter.png
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/fullscreen-FF.png
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/Ooo-writer.png
<Zelut> and lastly, because I know everyone likes the bling, Compiz on the EeePC (out of the box!)
<Zelut> http://zelut.org/dropbox/compizftw!.png
<Zelut> Before we go on lets get some of the questions.  I've seen them but I assumed someone would paste 'em in here (nudge popey)
<Zelut> 10:28 < jonphilpott> QUESTION: what's the boot time, and how disk space is ubuntu 8.04 using?
<Zelut> The boot time, last I clocked it was 45sec.  Default install uses about 2.5G, so that leaves about 1.5 for your files.
<AndrewB> Zelut: I can paste them if you wish
<Zelut> running df -Th just now on my machine (after adding my fav apps), I am using 3G of the 4G total.
<Zelut> AndrewB: ok.
<Zelut> The Xandros boot time is faster, yes, but I'm working on getting to that same speed.
<popey> say next when you want one
<Zelut> next
<AndrewB> ah popey has appeared
<popey> 17:04:36 < alexpgp> QUESTION: I was impressed with eeexubuntu on my eee. Is the upgrade to 8.04 worth it?
<Zelut> I think 8.04 has a lot of great new features and definitely suggest the upgrade.
<Zelut> I only briefly used eeeXubuntu.  I prefer the gnome desktop so that is what I've primarily worked on.
<Zelut> eeeXubuntu is definitely a great variant though--a lot of good work has gone into it.
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:06:20 < Odd-rationale> QUESTION: Debian has an easy way to install debian on an eeepc. all you need is a 16mb flash drive. does ubuntu have any plans to benefit from this as well? (http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2008/04/07/debian-on-eeepc-2/)
<Zelut> I am not familiar with that but now that I know about it I'll be sure to put it on the TODO.
<Zelut> I'm sure it won't be too difficult to port anything over.  Thanks for pointing that out!
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:14:16 < ZrZ> QUESTION: is there a community hack to fix badly designed website (through greeamonkey or something else)
<popey> ( I think he is referring to the lack of screen real estate )
<Zelut> None that I'm aware of.
<Zelut> I agree sometimes it is difficult to navigate a website on such a small resolution, but that is the price we pay for the size I guess.
<Zelut> it would be something nice to develop though
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:15:54 < artir> QUESTION: Why dont you make a eeeubuntu (like eeexubuntu) version with all the hacks by default ?
<Zelut> I would love to develop an eeeubuntu.  I am a little hesitant to create yet another variant.  I think I might prefer to add the hacks by way of a .deb package.
<Zelut> that way you can install as normal and just install a package.  too many variants and things can become complicated.
<Zelut> but, again, an all-in-one solution for this is definitely something on my list!
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:24:08 < alexpgp> QUESTION: What is the best way, in your opinion, to distribute partitions if you plan to have a 4GB SD card in the machine at all times?
<Zelut> I like to use the new encryption features in Ubuntu so I use something like 100M /boot, / uses the remaining onboard and whatever you put in the SD is /home.
<Zelut> Again, I don't use swap (particularly with the 2G RAM upgrade)
<Zelut> I also like to encrypt /home
<popey> side question - does that make a difference to performance?
<Zelut> With flash drives getting bigger and bigger putting /home on the SD makes it really portable as well.
<Zelut> I don't think i've seen any issue with performance in that regard, no.
<popey> ta
<Zelut> I recently saw some encryption benchmarks and the performance hit was minimal.
<Zelut> plus, with as small as the laptop is I think encryption is critial.  its so easy to steal or even lose! lol
<Zelut> next
<popey> related to that...
<popey> 17:26:10 < rzr> QUESTION: have you tested some filesytem that support "intelligent" on the fly compression ? this will reduce bandwidth but optimise storage
<Zelut> I have not.  The only filesystems I have used are ext2/ext3 and reiserfs.  The jffs, which is meant for flash media, is not really designed for something a user will interact with.
<Zelut> as I understand it it is better used for embedded devices or something.
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:29:34 < rzr> QUESTION: are there some ways to make intellegent usage of user inteface (mousewheel etc) to scroll horizontally ?
<Zelut> There are no ways that I know of, but I'm sure its something that can be implemented.  It is open source after all.  All it takes is time :)
<Zelut> next
<popey> (note the 900 has multitouch)
<popey> 17:29:44 < jonphilpott> QUESTION: what's the boot time, and how disk space is ubuntu 8.04 using?
<Zelut> popey: I think we covered that one.
<popey> oh sorry
<popey> 17:30:47 < Sionide> QUESTION: Why not Xubuntu? Since XFCE is designed with lower specifications in mind?
<Zelut> ..and that one lol
<popey> 17:31:14 < jonphilpott> QUESTION: Were you able to get the acpi keys (wifi on/off, etc) working out of the box?
<Zelut> eeeXubuntu is a variant based on XFCE, which works great.  I just prefer gnome so that is what I've focused on.
<Zelut> Those are not yet working in the default install out of the box, but they can be made to work with some minor tweaks.
<Zelut> again, by 8.10 I would like to have much better support for teh default install.
<Zelut> everything *can* work now, just not by default.  My goal, again, for 8.10 is to improve that as much as I can.
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:31:39 < jd2100_> QUESTION: Would the 900 model need shrinking?
<popey> ( I don't know what this means here )
<Zelut> if that is referring to the display I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.  the 1024x600 is still fairly small.
<Zelut> the drive space will be plentiful on the 900 model though. 20G means 5x more space than the 700 series!
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:44:13 < jd2100_> popey: screen shrinking
<popey> to clarify
<popey> 17:32:15 < rzr> QUESTION: are there works done to replace default bios by opensource one such as coreboot (linuxbios)?
<Zelut> not that I am aware of, but there is a lot of scattered tutorials and work on the eeepc.  Its still been a project just collecting it all.
<Zelut> If there is, and if it is possible, it will be something we will document on the ubuntu wiki.
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:37:35 < maffru> QUESTION: what are your thoughts on fastinit? http://helllabs.org/blog/20071231/asus-eeepc-fastinit-reimplementation/
<Zelut> I have not tried fastinit with the eeepc yet. (thank you guys by the way for these links!)
<Zelut> looks like it could be a nice potential improvement for 8.10
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:38:47 < rzr> QUESTION: is it possible to merge what xandros did in any distribution ?
<Zelut> A few of the things Xandros did to its default install are non-free, so that will make things difficult.
<Zelut> Anything that they do that are free software we'd be more than happy to cooperate on
<popey> What things are non-free out of interest?
<Zelut> the wireless driver (atheros) has binary blogs. some of the desktop software I believe is non-free.
<Zelut> *blobs
<Zelut> I have not done a full audit by any means, but I'd be more than happy to incorporate what I can.
<Zelut> next
<popey> 17:43:23 < maffru> QUESTION: how hard would it be *g* to put a unionfs layer on, like the Xandros shipped; and other than for security checks, is there any point?
<popey> (Note: This is what Canonical does with the Intel Classmate PC Ubuntu Build)
<Zelut> that isn't something i've even looked at yet.  If there is interest in it I'm sure we can collaborate on it.
<Zelut> next
<popey> thats your lot
<Zelut> thanks
<Zelut> with the last few minutes let me say what I would like to see happen
<Zelut> I know there are a lot of Ubuntu community members with EeePCs.  I think it'd be great to start working together (beyond just the wiki) to make it better.
<Zelut> I've learned about a few things just from the questions--things I hadn't even started doing yet.  I think if we collaborate we could definitely improve the support and functionality.
<Zelut> if anyone would be interested in working together on a project like this feel free to email me: christer.edwards@ubuntu.com
<Zelut> perhaps an ubuntu-eeepc team? :)
<popey> yes!
<popey> get a spec together before uds prague!
<popey> I'll champion it there
<Zelut> I don't think there is any reason that Ubuntu can't be as much of an option an Xandros or EeeDora or anything else.
<Zelut> popey: perfect!
<Zelut> Let me also drop some links for resources:
<Zelut> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EeePC
<Zelut> that is the ubuntu community wiki page.  please feel free to improve it.
<Zelut> http://wiki.eeeuser.com/ubuntu
<Zelut> this is the eeeuser global wiki.  note: not creative commons licensed!
<Zelut> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEeePC
<Zelut> the debian wiki, of course
<Zelut> http://forum.eeeuser.com
<Zelut> ..and the eeeuser global forum.
<popey>  < leftyfb> QUESTION: not really a question, but a uselful link: http://wiki.eeeuser.com/getting_ubuntu_8.04_to_work_perfectly
<Zelut> there you go.
<popey> also useful, this place are selling EEE 900s now :)
<popey> http://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/Asus_Eee_PC_900_Linux_Intel_Mob_1024MB_-_White_EeePC900-W005/version.asp
<Zelut> if you have any additional links *please* add them to the community wiki.
<Zelut> yeah, I guess the 900 is out now in the UK.  /me is jealous of popey
<popey> ordered two already :)
<Zelut> I believe the 900 will be available in the US in another two weeks.
<Zelut> likely available at newegg, amazon, etc.
<Zelut> any other questions?
<popey> not from -chat
<popey> great session Zelut, thanks!
<Zelut> again, please contribute to the wiki or contact me (christer.edwards@ubuntu.com) if you'd like to help improve ubuntu support on the eeepc!
<Zelut> I guess that'll do. Thanks for coming guys.  Appreciate it.
<popey> \o/
 * Zelut waves
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/EeePC log for that last session, and marks https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/AskMark
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Preseesing d-i / Ubiquity" - Evan Dandrea
<jcastro> evand: ok, you're up!
<evand> hooray
<evand> Ok, I'm going to be talking about preseeding as a means of automating the alternate and desktop installers.
<evand> Before I turn this into a Q&A, I am going to briefly speak about the current status of automating the installer.
<evand> I'd also like to remind you that many common questions can be answered by reading through the installation guide, specifically the preseeding section (Appendix B) and the wiki page on preseeding ubiquity (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbiquityAutomation).
<evand> You can read the latest version of the installation guide by typing:
<evand> sudo apt-get install installation-guide-i386; w3m /usr/share/doc/installation-guide-i386/en/index.html
<evand> Note that this will be the version of the installation guide for your release.
<evand> So if you're still on 7.10, you'll get the 7.10 guide by doing that.
<evand> There's an older version of the guide on help.ubuntu.com as well.
<evand> Ubuntu uses a modified version of Debian's debian-installer system as the basis for our alternate CD.
<evand> Preseeding in debian-installer is a way of answering questions that you know the installer will ask for the purpose of reducing the amount or type of input the user needs to provide or for completely automating an installation for mass deployment.
<evand> For example, if I wanted to avoid asking what username to use for the default user on the system, I would create a file and put the following in it:
<evand> d-i passwd/username string evan
<evand> I could then place this file in the initrd as preseed.cfg, or I could reference it on the kernel command line.  For example:
<evand> url=http://my.server.com/preseed.cfg
<evand> Would tell the installer to fetch the preseed file from my webserver.
<evand> Note that you can also preseed questions directly on the kernel command line.  For example, I could've just put this on the kernel command line and avoided using a file altogether:
<evand> passwd/username=evan
<evand> While there isn't a canonical list of possible questions, the installation guide should provide you with all of the questions you need.  Beyond that, you'll have to look at the "templates" file in the debian directory of the source package for the d-i component in question.
<evand> For those of you coming from a Red Hat environment, note that kickstart files can be preseeded into an install by passing them via the ks= kernel command line parameter.  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KickstartCompatibility has more details.
<evand> I should note that my experience with that bit of code is minimal.  Though I'll try to answer any questions on kickstart to the best of my ability.
<evand> I should also mention that I've noted the kernel command line a couple of times.  It can be accessed by pressing F6 at the isolinux menu on the CD.
<evand> Ok, so the desktop CD installer can be preseeded as well.
<evand> Ubiquity, the live CD installer, put simply is actually a layer of GUI code on top of debian-installer.  Ubiquity takes the data the user enters on its pages and preseeds it as the answers to the relevant debian-installer questions.
<evand> Each ubiquity page maps to one d-i component, with the exception being the partitioner, which maps two pages to the partman components.
<evand> Again, this is greatly simplifying what is actually happening, but I only mention it to explain the link between the two installers.  *Most* of the questions you can preseed in d-i can also be preseeded in ubiquity.
<evand> The exceptions to this are d-i components that ubiquity does not use and questions that ubiquity provides similiar functionality to, but under a different name.
<evand> One such example of the latter is ubiquity/success_command, which will run a command or shell script upon successful completion of the installation.  This of course is similar to preseed/late_command.
<evand> Another example would be ubiquity/reboot, which just as the name suggests, skips the final installation completed dialog and triggers a reboot of the system.  This is roughly equivalent to preseeding finish-install/reboot_in_progress.
<evand> Also note that if you want to skip the usplash "please remove the CD and press any key to reboot" message, you'll need to add 'noprompt' to the kernel command line.
<evand> Now, by default ubiquity will still ask questions that you've preseeded the answers to.  This can be avoided by either passing --automatic to ubiquity in a terminal window, or adding ubiquity-automatic to the kernel command line.
<evand> Note that ubiquity-automatic gives you the same stripped down enviornment that the new "Install Ubuntu" menu option offers.
<evand> Once you do this, any page that has had all of its questions answered correctly will not be shown.  An invalid answer, such as selecting cupsys for the username, will result in the page being shown with an error message and the script or command preseeded in ubiquity/automation_failure_command being called.
<evand> FWIW, there is also a generic ubiquity/failure_command preseed key that is called whenever the install crashes.
<evand> Also worth noting is that a failure to preseed one page properly does not mean the rest of the install will be manually done.
<evand> Once the user corrects the error and presses next, it will continue along until it encounters another page with an unanswered question or starts to install.
<evand> If you preseed all of the questions correctly and preseed ubiquity/reboot and add noprompt to the kernel command line, you'll have a completely unattended installation.
<evand> This is what Wubi, the Windows Ubuntu Installer, does.  Its code, preseed file included, lives at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/wubi/hardy .
<evand> One last point -- what to do when things go wrong.  If the installer is still showing a page despite all of its questions being preseeded, run the installer in debug mode (ubiquity --debug).
<evand> This will tell the installer to print the communication with debconf to /var/log/installer/debug.  You can then search the log file for "question will be asked".
<evand> This can also be handled on the kernel command line via the debug-ubiquity argument.
<evand> Ok, I think that about covers it.  I'm going to open this up to questions.  If you run into trouble later or we run out of time before you can ask, the ubuntu-installer mailing list is an appropriate forum for preseeding questions.  We also have an IRC channel, #ubuntu-installer.
<evand> Do I have someone to help me paste questions?
<tonyyarusso> Omahn> QUESTION: In the PXEInstallServer wiki page it mentions using PXE with Kickstart. Is the same PXE installation method compatible with  preseeding?
<tonyyarusso> evand: (I can for a bit here)
<evand> Yes, just replace the ks= with file= and the location of the preseed file.
<evand> tonyyarusso: much appreciated.  Let me know when you have to leave and I'll take over.
<evand> next.
<tonyyarusso> Zelut> QUESTION: How much work is being done on the kickseed (kickstart to preseed) compatibility?  I'd argue kickstart syntax is more "human  readable" than preseed, which fits better into the Ubuntu ethos.
<evand> Zelut: While it's more human readable, preseeding is built into the core of the installer, so kickstart compatibility will always be a matter of translation.
<evand> Colin Watson has done most of the work on the kickstart compatibility and is always quick to fix any bugs that arise.
<evand> Should you find an issue with kickseed I strongly encourage you to file a bug.
<evand> next.
<tonyyarusso> tonyyarusso> QUESTION:  Are there any special concerns when pre-seeding with the OEM install option?
<evand> I'm not sure I understand the question.  You have to enable oem mode (oem-config/enable=true), but beyond that it should be pretty straightforward.
<evand> Note that there were a few bugs in 8.04 for this...
<tonyyarusso> What would those bugs be filed against?
<evand> In particular the default language choice was not being carried over to the oem dialog.  I *think* we fixed that, though these kind of bugs often manage to find a way back into the code. :/
<evand> Either against ubiquity or oem-config.
<tonyyarusso> 'k
<tonyyarusso> Omahn> Not sure if this could be answered here or not, but would commercial support from Canonical support the PXE and preseeded install process?
<evand> Omahn: I *believe* so, but you would have to contact Canonical support for a definitive answer.
<evand> next
<tonyyarusso> tonyyarusso> QUESTION:  Can preseeding be used to specify packages to install/remove (like dpgk --set-selections) ?
<evand> tonyyarusso: Yes, pkgsel/include.  See section B.4.10 of the install guide for more details.
<tonyyarusso> Omahn> QUESTION: Is it possible to do a manual install and then 'retrieve' a log of preseeded options to use in future?
<tonyyarusso> Ooh, that's brilliant.
<evand> Omahn: debconf-get-selections
<evand> So, yes.
<evand> Note that you'll have to do that from the install environment and to my knowledge there's no easy menu item for doing it and pushing it somewhere.
<evand> File a wishlist bug if you believe there should be.
<evand> next.
<tonyyarusso> Zelut> QUESTION: (building on Omahn's question).  The way anaconda auto-builds a .ks at installation would be *awesome* with Ubuntu.
<tonyyarusso> That's more of a statement Zelut :)
<evand> ^ File a bug and I'll see what I can do :)
<evand> next
<tonyyarusso> That's all I have at the moment - watching for any last minute ones.
<evand> While we're waiting, I never did formally introduce myself...
<evand> I'm Evan Dandrea, as you may have gathered I work on the installer, ubiquity specifically but d-i to a lesser extent, at Canonical.
<evand> I'm also the author of migration-assistant and have been the Ubuntu end of Wubi's development over the 8.04 cycle.
<evand> If you have any questions, feel free to email the mailing list, or if you don't feel that's appropriate, email me directly at evand - ubuntu - com.
<evand> The mailing list is ubuntu-installer@lists.ubuntu.com
<tonyyarusso> evand: Is cjwatson still the d-i guy, or has he succeeded in passing that on?
<evand> tonyyarusso: Colin still handles much of d-i, but over the longer term I believe I'll be responsible for most of it.
<evand> If anyone is interested in getting involved in hacking on any part of the installer or the surrounding code (Wubi, Mythbuntu's installer code, etc), please see the wiki:
<evand> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerDevelopment
<evand> As mentioned there are a few wiki pages on preseeding, I'll try to organize those better going forward.
<evand> Debian's wiki is also a great source for information:
<evand> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller
<evand> I think that covers it.  Thanks to all for your time.  Thank you tonyyarusso for fielding questions.
<jcastro> Ok everyone, next session in ~15 minutes
<tonyyarusso> All right bryce, it looks like it's time to go.
<tonyyarusso> Bryce will be talking about the X Windows System, which provides the graphical environment in Ubuntu.
<bryce> hi all!
<bryce> The title of this talk was to be "Make X Kick Ass" but I guess that didn't pass the censors.  ;-)
<bryce> X is involved in everything the user sees or touches
<bryce> Yet X is probably one of the most ignored parts of the desktop!
<bryce> You can make a *huge* impact on Ubuntu's quality by improving X in two ways: Bug squishing, and coding up features.
<bryce> In this session, we'll talk about how to contribute to these areas, and to help make Ubuntu's X kick more ass.
<bryce> The Ubuntu X team has a mailing list you can subscribe to (low traffic):
<bryce>   http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-x
<bryce> Most of our work and discussions occur on IRC:
<bryce>   FreeNode:  #ubuntu-x
<bryce> You can join the Ubuntu-X bug team here:
<bryce>   https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat
* tonyyarusso changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask question in #ubuntu-classroom-cht, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Making X Rock!" - Bryce Harrrington
<bryce> For those who don't know me already, I'm Bryce Harrington and work on Xorg and related components.  Timo Aaltonen, Tormod Volden, and unggnu are very active community members who do a huge amount of bug and package work.
<bryce> we're always looking to welcome new people to the team too!  :-)
<bryce> First up is bugs.  There's basically four ways to contribute to bug work:
<bryce>  a) reporting  -  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting
<bryce>  b) triaging  -  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Triaging
<bryce>  c) researching
<bryce>  d) fixing
<bryce> All of these are important, but they require different levels of experience.
<bryce> I'm mostly going to focus on (c) and (d) here since the first two have been thoroughly covered in previous sessions, but first a few brief comments on reporting and triaging for X.
* tonyyarusso changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask question in #ubuntu-classroom-cht, prefaced with "QUESTION:" | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Making X Rock!" - Bryce Harrington
<bryce> For reporting X bugs the #1 most important thing to remember is to ALWAYS attach your Xorg.0.log.
<bryce> This file is thick with useful info like config settings, module versions, error messages, etc.
<bryce> The #2 thing to remember, is to PICK A GOOD TITLE.
<bryce> Too often people use a generic title like "X crashes randomly" or "Black screen after startup", and then everyone and their cousin thinks they have the same bug, when really they just happen to have similar symptoms.
<bryce> The result is much gnashing of teeth, people not getting their bugs fixed, cats and dogs living together....
<bryce> A lot more info on making good bug reports is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting
<bryce> Regarding bug triaging, I want to thank everyone who has helped in triaging X bugs.
<bryce> This is important work, and every hour that you put in saves a developer an hour that they can use to focus on *fixing* the dang bugs.
<bryce> Triaging is perhaps the easiest way to get involved in Ubuntu X; there's plenty of bugs, and you can start with little technical know how, and just learn as you go.  Pedro gave an excellent talk on this earlier in the week.
<bryce>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/TriageBugs1
<bryce> I've outlined some triaging "projects" for X here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Projects
<bryce> Since there's so many bugs, I find it useful to set myself a goal, so I know when I've "finished".
<bryce> For Hardy one of my goals was to reduce the total bug count for -intel to <100 by the release.
<bryce> that was tougher than I expected, but we did make that goal in time :-)
<bryce> For Intrepid, I want to do the same for -ati, which has around 170 currently
<bryce> As a more aggressive goal I want to try reducing the total Xorg bug count from 1600 to 1000, but we'll see there - that'll be quite tough.
<bryce> I have some plots here to keep track of bug progress - http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Plots/
<bryce> look at the 6-month chart for Intel under X, for open bugs, and you can see how the bug count got reduced during Hardy development
<bryce> ok, maybe a few questions at this point?
<bryce> would someone mind pasting a couple?
<tonyyarusso> progfou> QUESTION: what about making X start and stop faster too? does Ubuntu collaborate with Fedora on this project? see  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OneSecondX
<bryce> yep, we keep close eyes on what other distros are doing and have been looking at that one in particular
<bryce> a community member dug into that and found a few patches which are low risk, that we might pull in for 8.04.1
<tonyyarusso> bryce: (say next when done answering)
<bryce> I'll talk a bit more about opportunities for working more closely with upstreams and other distros - this is going to be largely driven by our Ubunt-X community size
<bryce> ok, next
<tonyyarusso> gkatsev> QUESTION: i have problems with full screen video, mostly in flash, does this have anything to do with X, if yes, any ideas how to fix?
<bryce> it may indeed be an X issue, but there are several layers in the stack that could be at fault with video issues
<bryce> that is actually an excellent question to take us into the next section of the talk, so let me head on into that
<bryce> the next step after triage - once you know you have an issue such as "video is failing, maybe flash related?" or whatever, is Research.
<bryce> we've got a LOT of bugs like this, where we know a bit of basics about the problem, but don't know how to fix them.
<bryce> 1600 Xorg bugs at last count, in fact
<bryce> But I've noticed that non-developers can play a huge role in making these bugs solvable, without writing a line of code.
<bryce> Here are several techniques I've noticed as effective.
<bryce>  a) Look for patches in other distros
<bryce>  b) Look for patches upstream in Xorg
<bryce>  c) Look in appropriate mailing lists for discussions about the problem
<bryce>  d) Test the latest upstream version
<bryce>  e) For regressions, test older versions
<bryce>  f) Get a backtrace
<bryce>  g) Talk to an upstream person about the bug
<bryce> Providing pointers for anything found (even if you're not certain it's relevant), can help a lot.
<bryce> People can try out and verify the fix, and packagers can (usually) easily grab the fix and package it up.
<bryce> Testing older or newer versions of X or the driver requires pulling them via git and compiling them
<bryce> which sounds technically challenging so probably many don't try it
<bryce> but this can be extremely effective at locating a patch to fix the problem.
<bryce> (I have some plans to help folks with pre-building git versions of drivers, but need to do more development on that before I can push it.  I did a prototype for -intel last month that proved quite effective.)
<bryce> (http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/bisect/)
<bryce> If it works with the newest upstream version, then there may be a patch in the new version we could backport.
<bryce> If you find it worked with older versions but does not work in the latest, then this may identify the patch that broke things, which we could then revert or fix.
<bryce> Backtraces are awesome.  X crashes are some of the most critical kinds of bugs we see.
<bryce> Similar to crashes are lockups and freezes.
<bryce> In all these cases, getting a backtrace can be extremely illuminating in identifying where X stopped.
<bryce> I'll talk more about backtraces in the next segment.
<bryce> Directions on obtaining backtraces this are available at this page, so I won't bore you with a lot of details, since this gives a nice paint-by-numbers approach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Backtracing
<bryce> So next time you crash X, don't just reboot!  Instead, grab a second computer and ssh into the broken one, attach gdb, and get a full backtrace.  :-)
<bryce> Okay, let's take more questions, particularly about bug reporting, triage, troubleshooting....?
<bryce> tonyyarusso: fire away with the next one
<tonyyarusso> rodolfo> QUESTION: so far we've seen X and Intel's video cards not working 100%. There are rumors that this will be changed until 8.10 official  release. Is this correct? (specifically i9xx series) - perhaps tips on tracking down the bugs and subscribing?
<bryce> right, we've been working quite closely with Intel this past release on squishing a lot of bugs
<bryce> I mentioned earlier about the reduction of -intel bugs from 180 to 100 - obviously this leaves a lot still to fix.  But we plan to continue work on getting the bugs solved.
<bryce> Intel has been *great* at responding to bug reports forwarded upstream to bugs.freedesktop.org
<bryce> they have very specific expectations about the bugs forwarded there though, so this is why I emphasize the bug triaging procedure so much - collecting all the right info, researching, backtraces, testing current git, etc. all are necessary for upstream to proceed with finding a fix
<bryce> we've got good processes for -intel and good momentum, and I'm quite hopeful to see this result in 8.10 being a very very solid -intel release.  And it'll be even better with your involvement.
<bryce> tonyyarusso: next please?
<tonyyarusso> qense> QUESTION: Does intel have an own public bug tracker? Or are their employees just reading other bug trackers?
<bryce> Intel's employees read the Xorg bug tracker at bugs.freedesktop.org
<bryce> they don't have their own outside that.
<bryce> next
<tonyyarusso> gruber> QUESTION: What should people who complain about resolution be told to do if X can't probe for their monitor type or frequency data--how  should the new user supply it?
<bryce> I like that question :-)
<bryce> in fact, things have gotten a LOT better since Feisty, when resolution problems were mentioned in *every* Ubuntu review
<bryce> I've got some very detailed directions on solving resolution issues on the X troubleshooting page in the link mentioned above, but a few quick tips:
<bryce> first, I always look in /var/log/Xorg.0.log for the EDID section, and then look at what the monitor is reporting, what the card says it's capable of, and what the result is.  About 50% of the time this gives a clue.
<bryce> many of the common causes for resolution issues in the past have been eliminated.  One of the biggest remaining ones is monitor or vid-card breakage, which is treated via Quirks.  I'll talk more about quirks later.
<bryce> another issue is when the monitor simply won't report edid at all, for whatever reason
<bryce> if we can't even identify the monitor, quirks aren't going to help unfortunately.
<bryce> there is a tool, displayconfig-gtk, which we no longer use as a stock config tool since it is applicable for only a small  number of situations, however it has a good monitor database
<bryce> be careful in using it though, and back up your xorg.conf, as it will be (attempting) to modify it
<bryce> next
<tonyyarusso> rzr> QUESTION: does it sound possible to run a repository of upstream snapshot built  ?  (for testing)  (an apt-repo, I assume, PPA or other)
<bryce> right, that's essentially what my goals are with the bisect page aboe
<bryce> I can't do it with PPAs unfortunately since they only let you keep the newest versions
<bryce> next
<tonyyarusso> rodolfo> QUESTION: For Linux newbies, updating the driver sounds like a painful process. Specially when it's related to X. Maybe because of each  file requirements. So, is there a guide for first-timers to update it or something like that available (a self-explained doc or tutorial)?
<bryce> indeed there is
<bryce> standby
<bryce> here we go - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XorgOnTheEdge
<bryce> we have some scripts to help automate building of .debs and such there
<bryce> and tormod provides some prebuilts
<bryce> I also hope to expand on this during Intrepid to make it easier, since this is such a great way to troubleshoot problems, but also know people like to avoid compiling stuff (yet compiling builds character!)
<bryce> ok, I'm going to continue on with the talk
<bryce> Okay, now for the hard-core stuff on smashing bugs.  Well, "hard-core" is probably a bit of a stretch...  What I'm going to describe are more at the "apprentice developer" level - you need to know C, but not a lot of depth into X itself.
<bryce> Since we just talked about backtraces, let me explain really briefly what a developer does with them.
<bryce> Most crashes are because of bad pointers.  Pointers are basically just addresses to places in memory.
<bryce> Pointers can go bad in several different ways.
<bryce> The most common are NULL pointer dereferences.  Basically, pointers are set to 0 (aka NULL) to show they're not valid.  If you try to access something using a pointer with value 0, that's a serious error and causes the program to fault.
<bryce> You can usually spot NULL pointers right in the backtrace - some variable set to 0x0.
<bryce> Another common pointer error is using an uninitialized pointer, that weren't set to NULL and instead point to a random place in memory.  These are harder to spot, and usually require studying the source code.
<bryce> If you know C and are comfortable with pointers, this can even be kind of fun.  :-)
<bryce> (well, I find it fun, maybe I'm crazy)
<bryce> If you don't know C, don't worry about all the pointer jibberish.  The important thing to remember is:  If it crashes (or locks up, or freezes, or boots you back to the login screen) get a backtrace.
<bryce>  
<bryce> Another apprentice-level X developer task are Quirks, like I mentioned earlier.
<bryce> Quirks are basically hardware-specific fix-ups, and can be specific to a monitor, or to a graphics card.
<bryce> When X starts up, it gathers the 'EDID' data from your monitor to get your monitor's id, and then looks up if there are quirks for that id to apply.  X does the same with your graphics card, using your pci id.
<bryce> Monitor quirks are kept in the X server, in the file hw/xfree86/modes/xf86EdidModes.c.
<bryce> Here is a listing of the current quirks:
<bryce> quirk_prefer_large_60:  Detailed timing is not preferred, use largest mode at 60Hz
<bryce> quirk_135_clock_too_high:  Recommended 135MHz pixel clock is too high
<bryce> quirk_prefer_large_75:  Detailed timing is not preferred, use largest mode at 75Hz
<bryce> quirk_detailed_h_in_cm:  Detailed timings give horizontal size in cm.
<bryce> quirk_detailed_v_in_cm:  Detailed timings give vertical size in cm.
<bryce> quirk_detailed_use_maximum_size: Detailed timings give sizes in cm.
<bryce> quirk_first_detailed_preferred: First detailed timing was not marked as preferred.
<bryce> quirk_detailed_sync_pp:  Use +hsync +vsync for detailed timing.
<bryce> At first glance it's not obvious what these mean, but basically they deal with issues where the monitor manufacturer didn't encode EDID properly (like putting values in centimeters rather than millimeters, etc.)
<bryce> EDID == Extended Display Identification Data
<bryce> basically it's a magical chunk of binary data that is embedded in your monitor, that your computer can query plug-n-play-ishly
<bryce> If you're curious about the particulars of any of these quirks, if you look in the source of that file it references bug ID's that explain the problem in better detail.
<bryce>  
<bryce> Graphics cards also have quirks.  These are stored in the video driver.
<bryce> For example, with Intel graphics, this is in xserver-xorg-video-intel in the file src/i830_quirks.
<bryce> Here's the current list of available quirks:
<bryce> quirk_mac_mini
<bryce> quirk_ignore_tv -- the most common quirk
<bryce> quirk_lenovo_tv_dmi
<bryce> quirk_ivch_dvob
<bryce> quirk_pipea_force -- another common quirk
<bryce> Again, look for bug reports for explanations of these.
<bryce> Believe it or not, us Ubuntu-ers have been the source for most of upstream's X quirk data .
<bryce> This is because Ubuntu kicks ass!
<bryce> ... okay, really it's because there are more Ubuntu users than other distros, so we just have a more widespread coverage of desktop hardware.
<bryce> But quirks are a good way for us to contribute upstream, and so it's important we recognize bugs that just need quirks made for them.
<bryce> tonyyarusso: ok time for a few more questions... next?
<tonyyarusso> phoenix24> QUESTION: Would you give an overview of the X architecture or Design ?
<tonyyarusso> (briefly, I'm sure)
<bryce> hehe
<bryce> ok, well veerrry briefly, the whole X stack is broken into a client / server model
<bryce> the server is, obviously, xserver (although some people run xgl which is basically an alternate server)
<bryce> clients are basically anything that runs on X - gui apps, cmdline tools like xrandr or xdpyinfo, window managers, etc. etc.
<bryce> there are various protocols that these use to talk to one another.  An example many have probably heard of recently is the XRandR protocol
<bryce> xlib (recently replaced by xcb) provides the interface between them
<bryce> the xserver itself is mainly a big chunk of code, with several libraries broken out, and a series of different drivers
<bryce> there are two kinds of drivers - input and output.  Input are keyboard, mice, trackpads, etc.  Output are basically video cards.
<bryce> by and large, most of the stuff we find "interesting" is either in the xserver or in one or more of the drivers
<bryce> hopefully that gives a sufficient overview
<bryce> tonyyarusso: next please?
<tonyyarusso> progfou> QUESTION: does the Ubuntu-X team has plan to make X.Org run as a non-root user to make bugs less critical on a security point of view? or  do we have to wait for upstream to implement something missing first?
<bryce> progfou, upstream is working on making Xorg run as non-root; there are a variety of projects under way upstream like this
<bryce> the level of participation is driven largely by the amount of community participation in the Ubuntu X team, and obviously by their own personal itches they wish to scratch
<bryce> worst case, we can pull in stuff from upstream as its ready, but it would be preferable to have people involved in assisting with pulling the bits in to test earlier
<bryce> next
<tonyyarusso> mariusss> ï»¿QUESTION: Hi Bryce! With the latest changes in X and the video drivers (nvidia in my case) everything started to be more automatical  (configuration of the monitor, video card, etc). But, are you aware of the fact the some of the latest video cards (expensive ones such as
<tonyyarusso>  GeForce 9800GTX) or some of te worst (most of the on-board ones) are a pain in the a** to make them work in Hardy (twith or without a  video driver installed)?
<bryce> I joke with Kees that the easiest way to make brand new hardware work is to stick it in your closet for a few months.  ;-)
<bryce> yes, it has always been true that the newest hardware tends to not be as well supported as older stuff
<bryce> we've been doing really well with Intel due to our level of interaction with them, and I hope with ATI's recent increase involvement with the open source community that we'll see big improvements there too (we already have a little)
<bryce> as a general rule, the best way for these is to get good bugs reported on them, and forward upstream to Xorg.
<bryce> ok, let me continue on with the talk
<bryce> We can divide feature coding into three categories:
<bryce> a) X config tools
<bryce> b) Packager tools and scripts
<bryce> c) Core X and driver coding
<bryce> X configuration tools are things like displayconfig-gtk or the new Screen Resolution tool, but could also include command line or install-time tools like xresprobe, bulletproof-x, xfix, etc.
<bryce> It is important that work on X config tools be done in a manner that upstream will accept, so we can contribute them and benefit from their assistance in maintaining them.
<bryce> GNOME and Xorg prefer tools be written in C, for example.
<bryce>  
<bryce> One config tool we will need in the coming year is an GUI XInput Config tool.
<bryce> This would allow run-time configuration of mice, keyboards, tablets, and other input devices.
<bryce> To start, we need it to be conceptualized - what screens it should include, how they should be laid out, etc.
<bryce> Prototypes could be done in Python, but ultimately what we ship will need to be written in C.
<bryce> Let me know if this is something you'd like to work on.
<bryce>  
<bryce> There are also a number of improvements that could be made to Screen Resolution, which I've listed along with some other projects here:
<bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Projects
<bryce>  
<bryce> Finally, let's talk a bit about core X development work (the Advanced projects at the above url).
<bryce> This touches on the fast X boot question.
<bryce> Historically Ubuntu has contributed only lightly on core X - mostly bug fixes and fringe work,
<bryce> but I know there are some very smart Ubuntu-ers coming on board and looking for respectible challenges, and core X development certainly fits!
<bryce>  
<bryce> You can read elsewhere about what is going on upstream that we could
<bryce> participate in.  The recent XDC2008 notes are the best place to start:
<bryce> http://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2008/Notes
<bryce> One of the Ubuntu-X team's top priorities for Intrepid is Input Hotplug.  We'd love to see additional testers get involved in this.
<bryce> Some other hot topics include kernel modesetting, fast X boot, TTM memory management, redirected direct rendering for GL/Xv, and multi-screen infrastructure.
<bryce> These are all under way upstream or at RedHat, and will come to us eventually.
<bryce> But one way to accelerate when we see them on Ubuntu would be to try building and testing them on Ubuntu, identify and fix problems, and participate upstream in their development.
<bryce>  
<bryce> Some other areas not under way upstream as far as I know, but that would be cool to see for Ubuntu include:
<bryce> Multi-pointer X (MPX) - for using tablet and mouse in conjunction.  Useful for drawing apps and maybe games.
<bryce> OpenGL with KVM - need to evaluate and/or port VGML to Ubuntu
<bryce> OpenGL performance for gaming - would be great to help optimize 3D for OpenGL games, to make it more robust and smoother under Ubuntu.
<bryce> Phoronix published a perf test that would be interesting to run and examine on Ubuntu.
<bryce>  
<bryce> I don't want to set false expectations that we have definitive plans for working on any of these, except for Input Hotplug, but to list them as areas of possible involvement
<bryce> Here again is where to subscribe to join the Ubuntu-X project:
<bryce>   http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-x
<bryce>   FreeNode:  #ubuntu-x
<bryce>   https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/
<bryce> tonyyarusso: next questions?
<tonyyarusso> rzr> QUESTION: what are priority for ubuntu if you have to choose between  hw support or reliability or performance ?  (or features)
<bryce> for an LTS release, reliability is the highest priority, with hw support second and performance third
<bryce> for a non-LTS release, I'd probably set the three to roughly equal in importance, but with increased importance on reliability as the release approaches
<bryce> next
<jcastro> that was the last question
<bryce> excellent!
<jcastro> Thanks for filling us in on X Bryce!
<tonyyarusso> bryce: bumping up against the next one now.
<tonyyarusso> bryce: There were more questions though - should they join you in #ubuntu-x for those?
<bryce> ok, well again, please join us in #ubuntu-x if you'd like to know more, or join in
<bryce> yep
<tonyyarusso> sounds good
<tonyyarusso> Thanks bryce !
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "The Future of the Ubuntu Desktop" - Ted Gould
<jcastro> Next up is Ted Gould, with "The Future of the Ubuntu Desktop"
<jcastro> This one is going to be awesome. :D
<ted1> Uh, oh, now that's pressure :)
<jcastro> ted1: go ahead and begin!
<ted1> Ah, okay.
<ted1> Welcome everyone.
<ted1> My name is Ted Gould and I'm on the Ubuntu Desktop team.
<ted1> Today I'd like to talk a little about the team, and in general about the Ubuntu Desktop.
<ted1> One of the things that I think it is interesting to see about the Ubuntu Desktop is that it is really an instance of the GNOME desktop.
<ted1> But, yet has it's own identity, and that difference is something that we find very important.
<ted1> That doesn't mean that we don't like GNOME, but it means that we don't have to be a straight up copy of GNOME either.
<ted1> In general, we've been pretty quiet for this last release as we've viewed the LTS as an opus for the current ideas, not a place to try new ones.
<ted1> So for Intrepid we'd like to focus on getting some new things out there, and to start planning for goals for the next LTS.
<ted1> Which we plan to be another great work, culminating all of the ideas that have come together over that time.
<ted1> I like to say that we're planing for 8.10 and 10.8 at the same time :)
<ted1> One of the key places to go for information on the Desktop Team is our wiki page:
<ted1> ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam
<ted1> (just pasted that in the wrong chat, oops :) )
<ted1> There we want to start working on planning for the next LTS, and looking at this through the lens of designing user exeriences.
<ted1> So, we want to focus on how a user accomplishes a task rather than the tools that are used to do that.
<ted1> You can find some of the experiences that have been written up so far here: ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Experiences
<ted1> While those are the beginning, we expect define and work on those at both UDS and beyond.
<ted1> I imagine they won't be 100% complete until the next LTS is shipped :)
<ted1> Questions on anything so far?
<jcastro> < Solarion> ACTUAL QUESTION: How will RedHat and SuSE's ignoring of the consumer desktop work with Canonical's support-based  business model?
<ted1> Solarion: Well, I think that it comes down to Ubuntu and RedHat/SuSE look at the business very differently.
<ted1> We're all basically using support based business models, but it comes down to how you handle the ratio of how much money you make per customer, and base your expenses off of that.
<ted1> So we're more focused on making $1 off every Ubuntu user (buy a T-shirt ;) ) while they're more focused on getting $1000/year corporate contracts.
<ted1> Their model doesn't work for the consumer market.
<ted1> So, I think they'll continue to do what they do best, and we'll continue to innovate on the consumer space.
<ted1> jcastro: next
<jcastro> multiple question
<jcastro> QUESTION: Hi Ted! Do you think this -> http://www.silverwingsonline.com/ubuntu1.jpg will become reality any time soon?  It will be nice to have such a futuristic desktop ;)
<jcastro> and
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will AWN be default in Ubuntu desktop on the next release, 8.10?
<ted1> I don't think that we have any specific goals right now, or a definite look.
<ted1> I would say that looking at both of those we have a lot of the same ideas, so I wouldn't be surprised if what we eventually ship has many of those ideas.
<ted1> One of the things that we want to focus on is being able to support smaller and larger displays well.
<ted1> Which isn't currently done.
<ted1> A good example of that is how the panel resizes.
<ted1> ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/PanelResize
<ted1> As you can see in many of those screenshots, things look pretty bad as the panels get larger.
<ted1> But, most of it isn't the panel's fault.
<ted1> What happens is that many of the panel applets or applications with notify icons don't handle the resize events correctly.
<ted1> Or, in some cases they don't ship with appropriate icons.
<ted1> And that's something we'd definitely like to fix.
<ted1> And I think that segways to a lot of how we see the desktop team interacting with upstream projects like GNOME.
<ted1> Our goal isn't to be the "Project X" upstream, it's to help all of the upstreams that are coming to the Desktop.
<jcastro> < Solarion> QUESTION: How far are you willing to drift from upstream?
<ted1> So if we could have a patch to all of the apps we ship that implemented resizing the icon, that would be great.
<ted1> I think drift is an interesting thing there.
<ted1> There are practical limits, in that we're just not that big.  We simply can't replace all of the upstream development that is done.
<ted1> But I could see us doing things like perhaps replacing the panel.
<ted1> I don't see that happening real soon as upstream is interested in redoing that also, but I think it shows the size of what we could accomplish well.
<ted1> Not a huge amount of code, but a significant visual impact.
<ted1> For instance one of the ideas that has been floating around on the art side is to try and make the panel icons dual-tone, and then use color for notification.
<ted1> For example your battery level could be black, but then if it becomes critical it turns red.
<ted1> But, this would require a patch, in that the panel is not specifically themeable.
<ted1> We would prefer if upstream would take that so we wouldn't drift at all, but if they don't, we could maintain it in our packaging.
<ted1> jcastro: next?
<jcastro> < tonyyarusso> QUESTION:  Does Ubuntu have any plans to look into more radical things like BumpTop, and if so, will they be helping to develop [an open source version of] them?
<jcastro> http://www.bumptop.com/
<ted1> Well, we're trying to be radical in a non-radical way :)
<ted1> I don't know if you're familiar with MacSlow's project (I can't think of the name)
<ted1> But basically it is a visual way to move files and group them using OpenGL and a very graphical way of moving the mouse.
<ted1> We'd love to see that integrated into a nautilus view, but still provide the other nautilus views for people with older machines and who prefer a more familiar experience.
<ted1> While we love bling, we need to keep in mind that one of the selling features of Linux has always been it's ability to run on lower end machines.
<ted1> We can't loose that advantage, or atleast we need to provide a good experience for those who don't have the latest and greatest hardware.
<ted1> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < Solarion> QUESTION: Are you planning to do some of the cool things that can be done with Empathy/Telepathy?
<ted1> Yes!
<ted1> I hope that we can do a lot more of that.
<ted1> But, I dont' think that we've decided on exactly how, but we really want to get the accounts integrated into the desktop.
<ted1> The reality is that people's contacts are more important that religrated to a specific application.
<ted1> I think taht social networking sites have shown us that.
<ted1> jcastro: next.  I think everyone is going through my outline :)
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Are you planning to have only 1 panel?
<jcastro> and related: < eragon> QUESTION: Will Gimpie panel be integrated in the next release, or some other time?
<jcastro> he means Gimmie
<jcastro> Lots of panel/dock questions today!
<ted1> One panel is an interesting idea, it comes down there are four corners of the display that are very important as they are easy to get to.
<ted1> So, while we may not have a "panel" per se, we want to make sure that those are all used for something very useful for every user.
<ted1> Today, we have "Applications", "Quit", "Show Desktop" and "Trash" in those corners.
<ted1> Now those are all important, but taking up the horizontal space to make those corners useful, isn't necissarrily something we need.
<ted1> So I think you'll see us move away from "2 panels" but we'll still use "4 corners"
<ted1> Gimmie, that is definitely interesting, and I think that you'll see some of the ideas from it being used.
<ted1> But I'm not sure that you'll seem Gimmie directly.
<ted1> One of the beautiful things about Gimmie is that it puts what you're using right now directly available.
<ted1> And we'd definitely like to see optimization on the "current task" throughout the desktop.
<ted1> jcastro: More questions?  Or go through my outline some more?
<jcastro> outline for a bit
<ted1> Sounds good.
<jcastro> then I will put in more questions
<ted1> One of the things that Mark talked about in his Intrepid announcement is that we want to see more of a focus on networking for Intrepid.
<ted1> One major part of that initiative is to start looking at things like Telepathy and Empathy, and trying to get them into the desktop more.
<ted1> It is looking like they might become part of GNOME directly, which makes it easier for us, but I think that we'll start looking at them seriously for Intrepid irregardless.
<ted1> Another thing that effects networking on the desktop is the GNOME project moving over to GIO.
<ted1> GIO replaces the old GNOME VFS, and provides a cleaner interface for most applications to access things like network shares.
<ted1> Or even odder devices like OBEX transfer to your phone.
<ted1> But, that move is not complete.
<ted1> So the reason I'd like to talk about it here, is that if there are people who want to contribute to the Ubuntu Desktop from a development perspective, this would be a great way to help us achieve our goals of seamless networking.
<ted1> You can get information on the GIO Port: ï»¿http://live.gnome.org/GioPort
<ted1> And instructions on how to do it: ï»¿http://library.gnome.org/devel/gio/2.15/ch15.html
<ted1> What is important to realize here is that even though those links are very focused on the GNOME project, we ship many more applications than that
<ted1> And for users, they don't understand what is GNOME and what isn't.
<ted1> So for people who want to contribute, you don't need to do it directly with GNOME, it's helpful with any GTK+ project that is interested in moving over to GIO.
<ted1> Oh, and going back a little...
<ted1> One thing I also forgot to talk about regarding experiences.
<ted1> One of the things that we'd like to do with experiences is both decide what we want the experience to be, but also record what it is.
<ted1> What happens when someone plugs an iPod into a Hardy machine?
<ted1> We're trying to start cataloging that information here: ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Experiences/Current
<ted1> This is another good way for people who want a small project can help with the Desktop team.
<ted1> It takes a little longer than you'd expect, because you really need to create a new account with defaults, but what it does is help us determine where we are and where we're going.
<ted1> So when we evaluate things like which CD burner we should be shipping with, we can see what we gain and what we loose in a fairly objective manner.
<ted1> jcastro: I probably should shut up for a minute and let people ask questions :)
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> < qrdhol> QUESTION: How will Ubuntu balance adding cool (possible complex) new features, yet still appeal to novices, i.e. the  human beings.
<ted1> We like human beings :)
<ted1> That's always a trick, and I think they key here is providing good defaults.
<ted1> One of the things that we like to do is provide features like wobbly windows, but spare people from configuring Compiz.
<ted1> So if you look at the desktop, there are settings that can be done, but not all of them.
<ted1> And so I think we'll continue with that approach, providing reasonable defaults and visible config options.
<jcastro> < johanbr> QUESTION: I think desktop bluetooth integration (in particular audio) is something that could still be improved. Are  there any plans for that?
<ted1> But still providing ways to install more configuration options.
<jcastro> ted1: we're running out of time and still have more questions so please type faster. :D
<ted1> johanbr: We would really like that, I don't know of any hard core plans for that.
<ted1> Things are getting better with bluetooth, but no, it's still not as good as an OS like OS X.
<ted1> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < Az32> QUESTION: Will be there a specific implementation of such thing like Ubuntu SDK? In this way the developers would have the  possibility to develop some kind of native-Ubuntu applications.
<ted1> Az32: That's an interesting question, I don't think we've thought about that.
<ted1> For the most part we're still using all upstream libraries, so there's not anything Ubuntu specific there.
<ted1> Now, as far as documentation goes, I think that's a good idea, but not something we've done.
<ted1> It'd be nice for developers to know what libraries would best integrate with Ubuntu in general.
<ted1> jcastro: next.
<jcastro> < seele> QUESTION: What are some ways you plan on improving these experiences and how can contributors help?
<ted1> Well, the easiest answer is come to UDS :)
<ted1> But, of course that isn't practical for a lot of people.
<ted1> We will be continually discussing and revising them on the ubuntu-desktop mailing list.
<ted1> And I'm sure they will be discussed in the Ubuntu Desktop team meetings.
<ted1> Those are weekly on IRC in the #ubuntu-meeting channel.
<ted1> Thursdays, about 6 hours earlier than this meeting started.
<ted1> (adjust for local time :) )
<ted1> I believe that they've been canceled between no and UDS, but they should pick up again right after.
<ted1> s/no/now/
<ted1> Basically, show up and make your voice heard! :)
<ted1> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < bryce> QUESTION:  What are the top 3 things that Ubuntu Desktop would like to see from Xorg?
<ted1> Whew, that's a loaded question ;)
<ted1> I think the first one is that we'd really like to see OpenGL work on multiple X instances so that fast user switching really works.
<ted1> This helps in the most obvious case of multiple users, but it would also let us do things like keeping GDM on it's own display.
<ted1> I'm going to side step the question a little bit and say that number two would be Linux kernel mode setting.
<ted1> While not directly an X issue, it is a big user issue.
<ted1> The fact that your screen changes as you go from BIOS, to upslash, to GDM -- it sucks.
<ted1> Lastly, I think we'd really just like to see good drivers.
<ted1> The reality is that most of the things that we want to do can be supported by older video hardware, the drivers just aren't that good for it.
<ted1> While a lot of the "eye candy" you're seeing today is flashy, it doesn't require that much GPU power.
<ted1> So, it really comes down to good drivers.
<ted1> I don't know if that's an X thing or a hardware manufacturer thing though.
<ted1> jcastro: next
<jcastro> < eragon> QUESTION: Why don't you ship advanced desktop effects manager by default? People don't have to use it, since they can  also use appearance settings effects tab, but at least it will be available to people in a default installation,
<jcastro> this will be the last question
<ted1> Basically it comes down to having too much choice, you'd be surprised how confused people get.
<ted1> There is a fun book on it called "The Paradox of Choice" -- mostly looking at consumer products, but it does apply to UI design also.
<ted1> So, while we have no problem with users having those tools, if the majority of users don't use or need them, it doesn't make sense to put them in the default install.
<ted1> It just makes unneeded confusing.
<ted1> confusion.
<ted1> And that goes directly to "support costs" of having things like lots more bug reports.
<ted1> So basically it comes down to "don't have to use" doesn't really work.  They do use.
<ted1> I want to thank everyone for coming.
<ted1> And invite everyone to #ubuntu-desktop
<jcastro> thanks ted!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Community Support with Ubuntu Forums" - Mike Basinger
<jcastro> Next up is Mike Basinger ... Community support with ubuntu forums!
<jcastro> take it away Technoviking!
<Technoviking> Greeting all
<Technoviking> I'm Mike Basinger an admin on the Ubuntu Forums and a Forums Council member
<Technoviking> The Ubuntu Forums starting back in 2004 by Ryan Troy (ubuntu-geek) at a community driven support forum for Ubuntu
<Technoviking> The forum is large community with over 71000 active members in the last month alone
<Technoviking> btw, ask questions at any time
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any plans on providing full-featured technical support from the Ubuntu staff at Ubuntu Forums (a  private zone or something)?
<Technoviking> Not as of now, but that is an interesting idea
<jcastro> < Venko> QUESTION: Are there any plans to switch to a free (as in freedom) forum software? Using proprietary software for Ubuntu  discussion seems somewhat hypocritical.
<Technoviking> We do have people who on Ubuntu and Canonical post to the forum regularlly, plus vendors who use Ubuntu (such as Dell)
<Technoviking> Venko: a famous question, we have consider other forum software, but we are afraid they could not handle the load
<Technoviking> the week Hardy came out, we `had over 24000 viewing the forums at one time, quite a load
<popey> Technoviking: venko has further points
<Technoviking> Venko: I feel it is no more hypocritical than Launchpad, to be honest
<Venko> vBulletin has been compared to other forum software before and has been shown to be quite inefficient in terms of load. The software is aimed at features and control, not effiecincy
<Venko> I do not see the forums using any specific features that available from vBulletin so it seems odd to me, that's all. I used to be involved in forum discussions for another community.
<jcastro> ok, moving on
<Technoviking> Venko: the features that vBB adds are very popular with our community
<jcastro> < eragon> QUESTION: how does one become a moderator on the forums?
<Technoviking> eragon: by showing to be a helpful forum member
<Technoviking> when we look for new staff, we ask our current staff who are good people in the forums community
<Technoviking> I would like to talk about asking for and providing support on the Ubuntu Forums
<Technoviking> There are two ways to use the forums, as a guest (view only) or as a member
<Technoviking> to join the Ubuntu forums you will need to lookm at the Forums code of conduit
<Technoviking> http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy
<Technoviking> it is basically the same ideas as the Ubuntu Code of Conduct more designed for the forums
<Technoviking> same idea applies, "Don't be a jerk"
<Technoviking> after joining you may question question in the forums
<Technoviking> but before to do, I suggest searching the forum
<Technoviking> The forums has a fantastic search engine, which is very quick
<Technoviking> you can do a basic search by entering a term in the search box in the uppoer right hand corner of the forums
<Technoviking> if you click on the serach link on commond ba near the top of the forum main page who can do an adavanced search
<Technoviking> you can search by title only, or limit it to a single forum
<Technoviking> also, the forum has been spidered by Google, so search via Google work well also
<Technoviking> in Google just type
<Technoviking> serach term site:www.ubuntuforums.org
<Technoviking> to search forum via Google
<Technoviking> any questions so far (search or otherwise)
<Technoviking> ok Let talk about posting
<Technoviking> Posting is very easy in the forums, even to a new user.
<Technoviking> The post editor is a nice WYSIWYG interface
<Technoviking> When you post first think about where to post
<Technoviking> The
<Technoviking> Absolute Beginner Talk forum is a great place to post with any such of beginner question
<Technoviking> or you can get more specific in our other forum areas
<Technoviking> There are areas for specfic hardware (amd64, Apple, Dell) and areas (wireless, multimedia,etc..)
<Technoviking> When you are asking a questions on the forum, provide as much detail as possible
<Technoviking> Include machine spec, OS version, 32 or 64 bit
<Technoviking> Also tell people if you have any third party software installed ( Ubuntu/debain packages, not provided in the Ubuntu repos)
<Technoviking> We also provide prefixes to post titles  (such as Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc...) to help people uderstand what your problem maybe
<Technoviking> Always follow the Code of Conduct when posting, ask for help, don't demand help
<Technoviking> Remember people are volenteering to help you so be nice:)
<Technoviking> and be patient, sometimes you may have to wait for someone to respond to your question
<Technoviking> BE sure to post question to the whole forums and don't ask for help via a private message. That way more people see you problem
<Technoviking> any questions?
<Technoviking> ok, lets move on answering questions
<jcastro> < Heartsbane> QUESTION: Would you care to comment on the nature of distruptive commentary in the forums (i.e. people who post the  solution being 'rm -rf /') has it subsided? are there any plans in the future to curb those types of comments?
<Technoviking> Heartsbane: I was just getting to that
<Technoviking> last year we had some forum member who thought it would be funny yo trick users into typing sudo rm -rf
<Technoviking> sudo rm -rf /, which would delete the root directory of your Ubuntu install.  major bad juju.
<Technoviking> The forum staff willing ban any person to post malcious commands on the forums, trying to trick people in to using them.
<Technoviking> There was a grassroot movement, and you will notice many older forum users have in there signature " Don't sudo rm -rf /"
<Technoviking> when answeing post would you ask that people do a few things
<Technoviking> Be understanding: The person asking the question maybe new to Ubuntu/Linux and maybe afraid of the command line and other linux terminology
<Technoviking> Explain the solution in detail, once again, the person asking the question may need extra details in a answer
<Technoviking> i.e., they may not know where the fstab file is located
<Technoviking> Also, someone if the answer requires sudo, realize that you are asking someone to give you root permission to there box
<Technoviking> be a good human being and respect that trust
<Technoviking> to find new questions that have been posted to the forums goto
<Technoviking> http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php?do=getnew
<Technoviking> any questions?
<jcastro> < wolfger> QUESTION: why encourage use of the forums instead of use of "Answers" in Launchpad?
<Technoviking> wolfger: both great ways to receive help
<Technoviking> it is all about personal choice, which way works best for you to receieve help
<Technoviking> maybe in the fture the two could be linked some how.
<Technoviking> the last thing I would like to talk about is forum governace
<Technoviking> The forum staff or moderators are all volenteers that help answer questions, remove spam (we get a lot), and keep the Ubuntu Forums a civil environment.
<Technoviking> the Forums Council is a Ubuntu team that decides on direction of the forums, and acts to help mediator for users problem.
<Technoviking> The Forum Council has monthly meetings, and you have view the meeting agenda here
<Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<Technoviking> I got about 10 more minutes, so more questions
<jcastro> < Az32> QUESTIONS: Is the Ubuntu Forums team developing some additional features for the forum, or you just use the bundled or  external ones?
<Technoviking> Az32: there are some social networking feature with the new version of vBB that we are looking into.
<Technoviking> In the last year we added the Thanks feature, which has been a big hit
<Technoviking> You can Thank someone for providing good help. Sort of like karma in launchpad
<jcastro> < Yaro> ï»¿QUESTION: You commented on being helpful members on the forum. I like that. Perhaps you could eleborate on many ways one  can be helpful on the forums?
<Technoviking> Yaro: Answering questions, being polite to other forum users, etc...
<Technoviking> Just being a good comunity member :)
<Technoviking> Yaro: right now, with Ubuntu 8.04 out, we have a ton of new Ubuntu users needing help
<jcastro> < toobuntu> QUESTION: Is there a wiki page or something that has stock answers for pasting into the forums for things like opening  a terminal, editing text files, and similar?
<jcastro> last question
<Technoviking> toobuntu: not that I can think of, but the wiki is a fantastic place for getting help with Ubuntu.
<Technoviking> I refer people to it all the time when answering forum questions
<Technoviking> also, if you write a guide or how-to on the Ubuntu Forums, be sure to add it to wiki,ubuntu.com
<Technoviking> it rocks
<Technoviking> wiki.ubuntu.com :)
<jcastro> ok, that about does it for time
<jcastro> thanks Mike!
<Technoviking> thanks all for coming
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Python Packaging" - Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
<jcastro> next up is Python packaging
<pochu> thanks jcastro
<jcastro> This is a new subject this time around, due to popular demand, so keep the ideas coming!
<pochu> So who is here for the session? :)
<pochu> jcastro: could you please -m the channel?
<sebner> pochu: me :)
<albert23> +1
<rulus> _o/
 * wolfger is here to learn python packaging
<morten> +1
<toobuntu> +1
<marto> +1
<pochu> This is my first session, so please forgive me if I go too fast or whatever, and just tell me
<progfou> _o/
<pochu> In this session we will learn how to package a Python application
<pochu> so let's get started
<barcc_> +1
<pochu> first let's do the preliminary work
<pochu> we will need some packages, let's install it
<pochu> $ sudo aptitude install wget dh-make devscripts
<avu> +1
<Az32> +1
<pochu> and let's prepare our working area
<pochu> $ mkdir ~/python-packaging && cd ~/python-packaging
<phoenix24> +1
<pochu> please tell me once you are done
<toobuntu> n
<toobuntu> (oops)
<pochu> hmm, there seems to be some people joining, let's wait a couple of minutes
<Az32> done
<wolfger> done
<rulus> done :)
<albert23> done
<toobuntu> ok
<pochu> nice :)
<pochu> we're going to package terminator, which is a terminal emulator that can split several terminals in the same window
<pochu> https://launchpad.net/terminator
<barcc_> done
<pochu> first, let's download the source package
<pochu> $ wget http://launchpad.net/terminator/trunk/0.8.1/+download/terminator_0.8.1.tar.gz
<pochu> and let's rename it properly
<pochu> $ mv terminator_0.8.1.tar.gz terminator_0.8.1.orig.tar.gz
<pochu> this is because Debian packages have this structure <name>_<version>.orig.tar.gz
<toobuntu> ls
<pochu> let's unpack the tarball to work on it
<pochu> $ tar -xf terminator_0.8.1.orig.tar.gz
<Az32> ok
<grantgm> would it be possible to wait for a second. My install is still ongoing ... damn slow internet
<Az32> ;)
<sebner> pochu: just for you private use. check out "unp" ;)
<pochu> grantgm: sure :)
<pochu> while we wait, if you have any questions, feel free to ask at any moment
<pochu> and feel free to interrupt if you get stuck
<Az32> Are there any plans on bundling a full-featured "visual" Python IDE with Ubuntu?
<nosrednaekim> can this channel be modded +m and have people chat in -chat?
<avu> pochu, will what we learn here be generally aplicable to all python packages distributed using distutils?
<pochu> nosrednaekim: I prefer this way
<nosrednaekim> it makes it nicer for the logs...
<pochu> Az32: there's spe in the repositories, try it ;)
<Az32> Thanks!
<Az32> What about bundling by default?
<pochu> Az32: and if you have questions, stani is the upstream author
<grantgm> sorry to keep everyone waiting. Its done now.
<pochu> I don't think it makes sense to put an IDE in the default installation... very few people will use it
<progfou> I second nosrednaekim... please moderate this channel
<pochu> avu: I hope so. we will only package one, but I will try to explain everything so you can package anything later
<avu> pochu, ok, thanks
<Az32> pochu: At least I would use it... ;)
<pochu> jcastro: hmm, could you moderate this again, so that it's easier to make logs later?
<pochu> ok, please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pochu> so let's continue
<pochu> $ cd terminator-0.8.1/
<pochu> OK, we have the upstream sources ready, let's start the packaging :)
<pochu> we are going to use dh_make, which will create a template from which we will work on
<pochu> $ dh_make -c gpl -s -b
<pochu> which means: '-c gpl' tells it that the package is licensed under the GPL license
<pochu> -s tells it that we just want one binary package. one source package can be splitted in many binary package. This is very useful when a package has huge documentation (so you build a -doc package too), or many images (so you build a -common package), or it's a library. We just need one, which will contain everything
<pochu> -b tells it to use CDBS, 'Common Debian Build System', which will make our packaging simple, so we can concentrate on the Python specific things.
<pochu> let's get into the packaging folder, debian/
<pochu> $ cd debian/
<pochu> $ ls
<pochu> Ok, there we have the template files. There's many files we don't need (all the *.ex ones), so let's get rid of them
<pochu> $ rm *ex *EX
<pochu> everyone keeping up? +1 in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please :)
<pochu> alright, let's continue
<pochu> Ok, now let's start filling the template. first we will edit the control file, so open it in your preferred editor.
<pochu> oly> QUESTION: what are .ex files i have not come accoss them before are they todo with packaging ?
<pochu> oly: dh_make will put example files for a lot of things. we may need some. They are for init scripts, manpages, Debian menu files, watch files...
<pochu> we could have used menu.ex and watch.ex, but we want to keep this as Python-oriented as possible
<pochu> Ok, now let's start filling the template. first we will edit the control file, so open it in your preferred editor.
<pochu> As you can see, the file is separated in two sections. The first one is always the source package info, and the others (in our case it's just one) are the binary packages.
<pochu> For the source package, we need to change the Section (misc is a good one, the list is here: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections), the Priority should be optional (it's extra for -dev, -dbg packages, and maybe a few others), and the Standards-Version should be 3.7.3 which is the newest one.
<pochu> If you package a Python module, section should be 'python', but not for applications
<pochu> Regarding the binary package, we need to put a short and long description
<pochu> Use your imagination to make one ;)
<pochu> And this is important for Python packages, the Architecture should be 'all', as our code is architecture-independent, so we don't need to compile it for every architecture (i386, amd64, powerpc, sparc...). This is true always for Python code, but it's different when we are packaging Python bindings written in C for example.
<stani> ï»¿FrankNiessink: QUESTION: so the first line is the short description and the next lines are the long description?
<pochu> FrankNiessink: right
<stani> ï»¿progfou: QUESTION: shouldn't we keep the Standards-Version: field as generated by dh_make since everything else also generated is compliant to this specific version?
<pochu> FrankNiessink: for the long description, every line should start with an space, and if you want to put a white line, it should be an space and a dot, " ."
<pochu> progfou: that's a good point. However, there weren't big changes between 3.7.2 and 3.7.3 that would make our package incompatibly with 3.7.3, so we are fine
<stani> ï»¿nosrednaekim: QUESTIONare the right and left arrows kept when writing the description?
<pochu> but when we update Standards-Version, we should *always* check that we are still compliant to the new Policy
<pochu> nosrednaekim: no, they aren't
<pochu> for example, it could look like this:
<pochu> Description: Simple and nice music player for the GNOME desktop Decibel is a GTK+ audio player which aims at being very straightforward to use by mean of a very clean and user friendly interface.
 * stani wants pochu to say next when ready answering
<pochu> stani: next :)
<stani> ï»¿rulus: QUESTION: When creating multiple binary packages from one source package (f. ex. Python module + GTK program), what should the section of the source package be?
<pochu> rulus: hmm, I'm not really sure TBH, but I think it should be that one which describes better the package
<pochu> e.g. if it's mostly an application which ships a public module which *might* be useful to someone else, then put one for the application
<pochu> but if it's a module with a small interface or something, put 'python'
<pochu> probably looking at the upstream package name will help you
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿sebner: QUESTION: Python applications are all but if we package something made with C or something similar the only way is to *test*? how?
<pochu> sebner: do you mean e.g. Python bindings written in C?
<stani> ï»¿pochu: yes, or just a pure C programm. Sry if it doesn't fit here correctly
<pochu> ok, you should test it as you would test any other package
<pochu> if it's a module or bindings, use them (probably the upstream source contains some examples or regression tests)
<pochu> if it's an application, use it as much as possible
<pochu> don't simply open it and look at the menus, but look at the functionality and check that everything works as expected
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿morten: QUESTION: What are the primary differences between pycentral and python-support, and which should we use, and when?
<pochu> morten: both do the same work, and both work very similar as far as I know, so use the one you like more ;)
<pochu> or try both and pick up one
<pochu> I'll let you guys decide which one to use in the future, although for this session we will use python-central
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿QUESTION: sometimes, does it worth to build native (arch dependant) python program ? can you tell when and why  ?
<pochu> native packages should be only used when the package is specific to Debian/Ubuntu
<pochu> e.g. lintian is a good example, or dpkg
<pochu> so unless you are developing (and not packaging in this case) something like that, use a non-native package
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿Kopfgeldjaeger: QUESTION: Do you need a setup.py file to package python applications or is there another way to do it?
<pochu> Kopfgeldjaeger: not really, although it's easy to create a setup.py script, but you could package Python applications which use autotools or anything else
<pochu> I maintain a couple of Python apps which use autotools one and  just a Makefile the other
<pochu> next
<stani> I propose to continue with your tutorial
<pochu> alright :)
<pochu> Now let's get to the Python specific bits. This is the important part of this session, as everything covered before would be general packaging tasks.
<pochu> So let's look at the Build-Depends and Depends. The Build-Depends are the packages we need to build our package, and the Depends are the packages we need to run it.
<pochu> Let's look first at the Depends. We need to add here all the modules our application uses:
<pochu> $ grep -B 3 -A 3 import ../terminator
<pochu> There we have our list of imported modules. Some of them are standard to Python, but others aren't. let's list them all. Also, most of them are required, but if you look at 'import gnome', if it's not installed it will just import the webbrowser module, which is a standard Python module.
<pochu> with 'standard to Python' I mean that they are shipped with Python itself, so depending on Python will be enough to cover them
<pochu> but there are modules which aren't shipped with Python, so we will need to depend on them so that our package can actually work
<pochu> So we have gobject, which is in python-gobject, gtk and pango which are in python-gtk2, gconf which is in python-gconf, and vte which is in python-vte.
<pochu> to find this you may need to do some research, although 'apt-cache search module | grep python' may help
<pochu> For gnome, we will just recommend it (and not depend on it) as it's not required, because we have webbrowser as fallback.
<pochu> So let's add 'python-gobject, python-gtk2, python-gconf, python-vte' to Depends. We can also remove ${shlibs:Depends} which isn't useful for pure Python packages.
<pochu> And let's add 'Suggests: python-gnome2' after the Depends field. I've chosen Suggests and not Recommends because now Recommends are installed by default, and GNOME users probably have it installed, and we don't want to install it for KDE users (the less, the better for them). But feel free to disagree and use Recommends if you want :)
<pochu> please, tell me if you get stuck
<pochu> Now we will have a look at the Python Policy, http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy, which explains what we need to do to our package.
<pochu> please everybody open that link :)
<stani> pochu: eveybody is following ;-)
<pochu> cool
<pochu> If you look at the 'Updating your packages' section, you will see it explains what to do for each case (python application, python module, package with extensions...). We are packaging an application, so let's look what it says about them.
<pochu> The first point, although it doesn't say it, is for modules. Some time ago modules had a binary package for each Python version (e.g. python2.4-module, python2.3-module...). But fortunately that's not the case anymore, and we are packaging a Python application anyway so we don't care ;)
<pochu> The second point affects us. We need to add a ${python:Depends} to the Depends field. That will add the correct Python dependency to our binary package.
<pochu> The third point also affects us. We have to add a "XB-Python-Version: ${python:Versions}" field in the binary stanza (where Depends and Architecture are). It doesn't matter where you put it. You can put it between Architecture and Depends, for example. Note that if we had more than one binary package, we would need to put it for each one of them.
<pochu> That's used by pycentral/pysupport, and it will get it's value from 'XS-Python-Version', but we will see that later
<pochu> morten> QUESTION: Shouldnt we use debian/pyversions now?
<pochu> morten: that's used by python-support only, not by python-central, and I think it's deprecated (or at least it's not required if you have XS-Python-Version)
<pochu> morten: so we won't use it
<sebner> pochu: stani seems to be away. you gave me voice. Should I copy the questions?
<stani> I am still here
<sebner> ah ok ^^
<pochu> morten: in the wiki page, in the python-support section, it says: "Note: if there's no debian/pyversions, dh_pysupport will try to use the XS-Python-Version field to find out the list of supported versions. "
<pochu> The fourth point doesn't affect us, as we don't ship extensions.
<pochu> The fifth point wouldn't affect us if we weren't using CDBS, but as we want to make the packaging simple, we will need to pick either python-central or python-support (doesn't matter which one, both do their job). This is good because if we were shipping a module, either public or private (and many applications are modularized), we would need to use one of these tools, so now we will learn about them so when you need to use them you know how t
<stani> ï»¿morten: /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk:60: WARNING:  Use of XS-Python-Version and XB-Python-Version fields in debian/control is deprecated with pysupport method; use debian/pyversions if you need to specify specific versions.
<stani> ï»¿morten: (but you are using pycentral, so i guess its ok)
<pochu> Let's go with python-central. If you want to use python-support in your package, you will find that the steps are almost the same, and they are well documented in the policy.
<pochu> morten: that's just a warning, not an error ;) but anyway we are going to use pycentral in this session, and not pysupport
<stani> ï»¿progfou: QUESTION: is there specific things to do for a package only working with one version of Python (eg 2.5 and not before)? and the same question for a package not Python version dependant
<pochu> BTW, the session will last some more time, FYI
<jcastro> there's nothing scheduled after, so take all the time you need!
<pochu> progfou: yes, we will see that when I explain how to use XS-Python-Version
<pochu> jcastro: thanks :)
<pochu> So from steps first and second from 'Using python-central', let's Build-Depend on "debhelper (>= 5.0.38), python-central (>= 0.5.6)", substituting "debhelper (>= 5)" which is minor than 5.0.38.
<pochu> The third step doesn't apply to us as we will use CDBS and that's for debhelper. But we will see that later.
<pochu> As per the fourth step, we need to add XS-Python-Version to the source stanza of debian/control. The 'current' keyword is deprecated (the Policy needs to be updated), so we can use either 'all' if our package supports all Python versions, or >= X.Y. the README or ChangeLog doesn't mention which Python versions are supported, but it works at least with Python 2.4 so let's put >= 2.4 on it, "XS-Python-Version: >= 2.4". Remeber to put that in the
<pochu> progfou: ^-- does that answer your question?
<stani> ï»¿ebner: Question. Shouldn't we use pycentral >= 0.6 since there are fixes in it IIRC. (just did some bugfixing, transition)..
<stani> ï»¿progfou: pochu: yes it answers my Python version question, but... I'll wait for next step to see... :)
<pochu> sebner: yes, >= 0.6.0 makes more sense as it changed the path were the modules are stored. However our package doesn't ship any modules so we are safe
<pochu> But if you package public modules, you should build depend on python-central >= 0.6.0 (the policy needs to be updated)
<pochu> but it works at least with Python 2.4 so let's put  >= 2.4 on it, "XS-Python-Version: >= 2.4". Remeber to put that in the source stanza, for example just below Standards-Version.
<pochu> sorry, that got truncated
<pochu> And the fifth point obviously doesn't affect us, as we don't ship any modules.
<pochu> 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,22                                                                                                       <
<pochu> simmons.freenode.net/#ubuntu-classro:
<pochu> ooops
<pochu> So we have this in place now, let's go to the CDBS magic, in the "CDBS + distutils" section. For this to work, our package needs to use distutils (the setup.py script usually). It's a system to distribute Python applications and modules: http://docs.python.org/dist/dist.html, but we don't need to worry about that now as our package uses it.
<stani> ï»¿pochu: but it also doesn't matter if I *only* use >= 0.6 for all things?
<pochu> no, that's fine. although that will make backporting harder
<pochu> So the first point tells us to Build-Depend on cdbs (>= 0.4.49) in the control file, let's do it.
<pochu> please, let me know if you are keeping up fine
<sebner> pochu: please continue :)
<pochu> The second point tells us to set the DEB_PYTHON_SYSTEM environment variable in the rules makefile. As we have chosen python-central, that would look like "DEB_PYTHON_SYSTEM=pycentral" before the includes.
<pochu> And finally let's add the distutils magic, removing the makefile one (as the package doesn't have a Makefile but a distutils script). So let's change "include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/makefile.mk" with "include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk"
<pochu> We should be done now :-)
<pochu> Let's finish with the other files. As we don't need to document anything in README.Debian, let's remove it. We don't need the dirs file, as distutils and python-central will take care of making the necessary directories.
<pochu> $ rm README.Debian dirs
<pochu> And finally, let's edit debian/changelog. The 'dch' script from devscripts is really useful for this.
<pochu> but for this we will need to have a couple of environment variables in place
<pochu> so please, add something like this to your ~/.bashrc
<pochu> export DEBFULLNAME="Emilio Pozuelo Monfort"
<pochu> export DEBEMAIL="pochu@ubuntu.com"
<stani> ï»¿rulus: QUESTION: What about "DEB_COMPRESS_EXCLUDE := .py" in the rules file? Is it (still) necessary?
<pochu> rulus: I don't think it is, at least I don't use that for any of my packages. But I'm not really sure
<pochu> rulus: for this package it isn't needed though, as there's no .py file
<pochu> ok, now run this so that the terminal knows about those variables we have set
<pochu> $ source ~/.bashrc
<pochu> and let's edit the changelog:
<pochu> $ dch -e
<pochu> And let's put a bugnumber there in Closes (we don't have one, so let's invent it).
<pochu> Also, we should change unstable with intrepid and '0.8.1-1' with '0.8.1-0ubuntu1' if we are packaging this for Ubuntu (although if you package it for Debian, then it will hit both Debian and Ubuntu, and probably other Debian derivatives)
<pochu> also if it's for Ubuntu, the bug should be a Launchpad bug and we should change 'Closes' with 'LP'
<pochu> We have almost finished this! We only need to put the right info in debian/copyright, but let's skip that here. That's very important though. Without a perfect debian/copyright file listing all the necessary info, the package will be rejected.
<pochu> to write good debian/copyright files, this two mails from a couple of Debian Developers are very useful: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/12/msg00007.html, http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg00023.html
<pochu> So let's now build the package and install it!
<pochu> please, make sure you have the dpkg-dev package installed, I forgot about it in the beginning
<pochu> $ sudo aptitude install dpkg-dev
<pochu> $ cd ..
<pochu> $ dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
<pochu> That will build the source and binary package. The '-us -uc' options are not to sign the source and changes files (we would need to sign them to upload them to Ubuntu/Debian/your PPA, but if you have rights to do that, you probably know how to sign them ;)
<pochu> If you are interested in PPAs, there was a session about it this Tuesday, logs are available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/LaunchpadPPAs
<pochu> If everything has gone fine, that command will end with this:
<pochu>     dpkg-genchanges: including full source code in upload
<pochu>     dpkg-buildpackage: full upload (original source is included)
<pochu> Is that the case? :)
<stani> ï»¿FrankNiessink: QUESTION: I get: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: cdbs (>= 0.4.49)
 * stani wants again a next blessing after an answer ;-)
<pochu> FrankNiessink: ah, right
<pochu> we need to install the Build-Dependencies! so let's run:
<pochu> $ sudo aptitude install cdbs debhelper python-central
<pochu> after that, build the package again:
<pochu> $ dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
<pochu> (if it failed in the first run)
<stani> ï»¿sebner: python 2.4 not found
<stani> ï»¿gruber: QUESTION: I get: /bin/sh: python2.4: not found
<stani> pochu: ping
<pochu> sebner, gruber: ok, please change XS-Python-Version, '>= 2.4' to 'all'
<pochu> and try again
<sebner> pochu: invalid setting
<stani> ï»¿hhlp: QUESTIONS : can you put in pastebin an example of controlfile of this example to compare with mine (in the meantime)
<sebner> pochu: ah no. same error
<pochu> hhlp: sure, http://pastebin.com/f60fedee1
<stani> (ï»¿progfou: yep, to make it easier I've changed XS-Python-Version to 2.5 and it works 'til the end)
<pochu> gruber, sebner: ok, so then we need to use 'current'
<sebner> pochu: yeah. I saw your posted control file ^^
<pochu> That was my fault, I thought 'current' was already deprecated in python-central but it's not yet...
<pochu> So to everybody: if we use '>= X.Y', or 'all' it will build the package for every python version. However, this is an application and that's not useful (that good for modules though) so for an application, 'current' will build it only with the default python version
<pochu> I guess 'current' will be deprecated in the future, but it's not right now so we can use it
<stani> ok, continue
<pochu> lup> could you paste the rules file too?
<pochu> lup: http://pastebin.com/f4e6dc243
<pochu> ok
<pochu> Ok, let's install the package now. the 'debi' command (from the devscripts package too) will install it if we have just built it from the package directory, so we are fine:
<pochu> $ sudo debi
<pochu> The last line should be this one:
<pochu>     Setting up terminator (0.8.1-1) ...
<pochu> So we got it!!
<pochu> Now you can start terminator with the following command:
<pochu> $ terminator
<pochu> And there is a terminator menu entry in the Accesories menu (that's in GNOME, I don't know where will it show in other desktops).
<pochu> So we are done :-)
<pochu> Questions?
<stani> ï»¿lup: Got a different error:  /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk:69: *** unsupported Python system: pycentral   (select either pysupport or pycentral).  Stop.
<pochu> lup: what Ubuntu version are you running? (this could be due to old packages, I didn't tested the session in Dapper)
<pochu> lup> It was white space after the pycentral, the quotes didn't help
<pochu> alright :)
<stani> sebner: Question. Is it in generel better to use cdbs for python things? It may contain black magic
 * stani starts with other questions now
<pochu> sebner: not really. Any system is fine. I chose CDBS as that way it would be easier for starters to follow the session and concentrate on the Python bits, but using debhelper is equally fine
<pochu> next
<stani> rulus: QUESTION: How do I combine 'multiple binary' with 'cdbs' in dh_make? It seems the one or the other.
<pochu> rulus: I have to admit I have no idea, I have never used that, and indeed it doesn't seem to work
<stani> ï»¿sebner: Question: Why have we a menu entry? We didn't created a menu file or is this black magic by cdbs?
<pochu> rulus: file a bug report about it ;)
<pochu> sebner: good question. Indeed we removed the menu file, but the upstream package contains a .desktop file, and the setup.py script installs it properly in /usr/share/applications/
<pochu> that's nice, isn't it?
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿progfou: QUESTION: how should I deal with real Python version specific files like new encodings having to be put in /usr/lib/python2.5/encodings/ ? should I put them at the right place by hand (using "install -c ...") or is there some more automatic way not requiring to know the exact location?
<pochu> progfou: pycentral/pysupport will take care of that
<pochu> progfou: e.g. with pycentral it will install the files into /usr/share/pyshared/, and it will byte-compile them into every python version
<pochu> progfou: so you don't need to do that by hand, luckily
<pochu> next
<stani> oly: QUESTION: how does packaging from scratch differ, i mean if i have no tar.gz file do i just tar up my existing project and work from there does the layout of the source files matter in anyway ??
<pochu> oly: ok, we assume here you are upstream for that project. So yes, you need to make a tarball (a public release for example, mypackage-0.1), so you can then package it
<pochu> the layout matters a bit, so if you will use distutils, the distutils documentation explains where to put everything
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿lup: QUESTION: what do I need to remove to rebuild the package again?
<pochu> lup: good question. We need to remove build/, so you can put that in debian/rules in the clean target
<pochu> e.g.
<pochu> terminator/clean::
<pochu>         rm -rf build/
<pochu> that would fix it
<pochu> it's important that a package can build twice in a row now, but i didn't want to enter into that so we could concentrate in the python specifics
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿grantgm: QUESTION: why does 'dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc' need to run as root?
<stani> ï»¿grantgm: so I still haven't been able to build successfully: make: *** [testroot] Error 1
<pochu> grantgm: ah, I guess you aren't running Hardy ;-)
<pochu> grantgm: or you may be, but you don't have installed fakeroot
<pochu> grantgm: you don't need to, you can use fakeroot to do it
<pochu> grantgm: in fact, you should never build a package as root in your production system
<pochu> grantgm: so install the fakeroot package, and build it again (use dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot if you don't have Hardy or later)
<stani> ï»¿grantgm: 7.10 on this machine
<pochu> I see, that should work for you then
<pochu> next
<stani> ï»¿tzeentch__: QUESTION: How does using different build tool change things, e.g. if a package used scons, setuptools or whatever, would cdbs and all other magic still work?
<stani> ï»¿grantgm: stani: same problem (with fakeroot on 7.10)
<pochu> grantgm: did you try '-rfakeroot' ?
<pochu> tzeentch__: not exactly. The distutils magic won't work anymore
<pochu> tzeentch__: but the pycentral/pysupport magic should work as long as the build system does the Right Thing
<pochu> I have never packaged anything using scons or setuptools, but I maintain a Python package which uses autotools. I use debhelper for it though, but I guess I could switch it to CDBS without problems
<pochu> next
<stani> I guess no more questions
<stani> but maybe you can give a short word about PAPT
<pochu> yes
<pochu> so PAPT, or Python Applications Packaging Team, is a Debian team which has many Python applications. There's also many Ubuntu developers and contributors packaging their applications there, as then they will hit both Debian and Ubuntu
<pochu> I maintain all my Python applications there, and I have never had any problem in getting them into Ubuntu
<sebner> pochu: because they get autosynced ^^
<pochu> yes :)
<pochu> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/PythonAppsPackagingTeam and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian/PythonModulesTeam have more info
<pochu> Alright, thank you all for coming to the session! I hope you have learnt something with it, and I'll be more than happy to help you if you get in troubles with Python packaging or need sponsorship :-)
<pochu> Thanks stani for pasting the questions too
<sebner> pochu: yeah. 2 hours ^^
<pochu> also, there's #ubuntu-motu here on Freenode and #debian-python on OFTC where you can ask for help with packaging (the latter only for Python packaging obviously :)
<stani> nealmcb: QUESTION:  What is a really good example of a simple, beautifully packaged and written and documented python package?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-02
<pochu> nealmcb: well, it's hard to choose one (maybe those of mine? ;) so I'll suggest you to look at those maintained by PAPT and DPMT (for modules): http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/python-apps/, http://svn.debian.org/viewsvn/python-modules/
<pochu> nealmcb: you can also checkout the svn repository if you want, svn://svn.debian.org/python-apps/, svn://svn.debian.org/python-modules/
<stani> ok, thanks everyone for attending. I propose we close this session now.
<sebner> stani: also thanks to you :)
<jcastro> thanks guys
<jcastro> that was awesome
<jcastro> ok, next round of sessions is @ 1500UTC tomorrow!
<pochu> Thank you all and good night!
<ompaul> thanks pochu
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise |
<jcastro> thekorn_: 5 minutes!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Bughelper - Making Bug Work Easier" - Markus Korn
<jcastro> Ok everyone welcome back, we'll get started in a few minutes
<jcastro> Please note that there has been a last minute scheduling change: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<jcastro> We apologize for this being last minute, so to fill in the time we'll continue to discuss bughelper and general Q+A things like 5-a-day.
<jcastro> then @ 1700 UTC I will hold a general Ubuntu Q+A session
<jcastro> thanks to everyone for showing up, thekorn_ will begin at the top of the hour!
<jcastro> as always, feel free to send me feedback at jorge (at) ubuntu.com
 * thekorn_ rings the bell
<thekorn> Good morning everybody to today's first session of the Ubuntu Open Week.
<thekorn> My name is Markus Korn, I'm one of the developers of bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs
<thekorn> and I would like to show you how this tools can help you work with your bugs.
<thekorn> If you have any questions please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<thekorn> If you want to tryout the examples I provide in this session, please install bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs.
<thekorn> Some of this examples will only work with the latest version of both tools.
<thekorn> To get this version please add
<thekorn>    deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/bughelper-dev/ubuntu hardy main
<thekorn> to your /etc/apt/sources.list, and replace 'hardy' with the version of ubuntu you use.
<thekorn> Then you can should update via 'sudo apt-get update' and install bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs.
<thekorn> That's all preparation we need, let's start the session!
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> So first of all: what's bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs?
<thekorn>  * python-launchpad-bugs is a python interface to work with bugs, and blueprints, in Launchpad.
<thekorn>  * While bughelper is a suite of utilities that uses python-launchpad-bugs to help you find specific bugs in Launchpad.
<thekorn> I'll start off talking about the bughelper suite and then move on to python-launchpad-bugs.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> The most important tools in the bughelper suite are buginfo, bugnumbers and bughelper itself.
<thekorn> Let's have a closer look at this tools:
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> 'buginfo' provides an easy interface for accessing information about a single bug for example
<thekorn>    'buginfo --title 123456'
<thekorn> will return the bugs title.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> 'bugnumbers' is designed to return a list of bug based on a query.
<thekorn> Let's say you would like to get a list of all bug in ubuntu's 'bughelper' package, run bugnumbers like:
<thekorn>    'bugnumbers -p bughelper'
<thekorn> As there is also a project called 'bughelper' registered on launchpad.net,
<thekorn> you can add the option '-U' to get a complete list of all open bugs in the package and in the project.
<thekorn> Other possible options are:
<thekorn>   '-D=<distro>' to change the distrubution to look in
<thekorn> (note: this distro has to be registered in launchpad.net)
<thekorn>   '-P=<project>' to only search for all bugs in a given project
<thekorn>   '-l=<url>' to filter buglists based on a given url
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> So far you get a list of all open bugreports,
<thekorn> by adding additional options you can filter this lists further.
<thekorn> Some of these filters are are also available via the search feature of launchpad, some of them are not.
<thekorn> Some features not in Launchpad are querying on the quantity of duplicates, subscribers, comments, attachments.
<thekorn> Or you can query on the date and author of the last comment in a bugreport.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Let me give you some simple examples:
<thekorn>  'bugnumbers -P python-launchpad-bugs --reporter thekorn'
<thekorn>  'bugnumbers -P python-launchpad-bugs --reporter thekorn --status New'
<thekorn> both calls will return you a list of all open bugs in the python-launchpad-bugs project,
<thekorn> but the second one will only show you the 'New' ones.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> That's no magic so far, let's have a look at a more complex one:
<thekorn>   'bugnumbers -l "https://bugs.launchpad.net/~thekorn" --na ">1" --closed'
<thekorn> This will return a complete list of all bugs related to me with one or more attachments.
<thekorn> This list will also contain closed bugreports
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> On http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/reports/ Brian Murray is using bugnumbers to create interesting reports.
<thekorn> For example 'yesterday' contains a list of all bugs in ubuntu which where reported yesterday.
<thekorn> This reports show you that there are different output-formats, in this case he is using a html-format for the output,
<thekorn> there are also options for a 'wiki' and 'csv' styled output.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Any questions so far?
<thekorn> <qense> QUESTION: How do you use bughelper on websites? You need to place it in cron?
<thekorn> qense, yes, bdmurray is running a cron job to create this pages,
<thekorn> but there is also a script called 'bughelper-server.py' in the bzr branch
<thekorn> which helps you to organize runs of bughelper and bugnumbers a bit
<thekorn> you can get the branch via:
<thekorn>   bzr branch lp:bughelper
<thekorn> qense, does this answer your question
<thekorn> ?
<thekorn> ok, let's move on
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> With 'bughelper', the application, you can search bug reports, comments and attachments for a specific string.
<thekorn> 'bughelper' provides you clue based on the search result.
<thekorn> Clues are stored in clue files with the suffix '.info' in '~/.bughelper/packages'
<thekorn> https://code.launchpad.net/bughelper-data/ is the project in launchpad to organise this clue-files and every member of the bugsquad can commit clue files to the .main branch of this project.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> So, what's the structure of such an clue-file?
<thekorn> And how does such an file look like?
<thekorn> As an example let's take a look at ~/.bughelper/packages/bughelper
<thekorn> (you can view this file online at http://tinyurl.com/2zwm7a)
<thekorn> Such clue files are in a xml format and can contain multiple clues.
<thekorn> Each clue needs at least two elements:
<thekorn>    '<contains>'
<thekorn> this element contains the actual search pattern.
<thekorn> It is possible to add logical elements like 'and' or 'or' to such a node.
<thekorn> In the first clue you can see an example of using regular expressions as an search pattern.
<thekorn> The 'field' attribute specifies which attribute of an bugreport has to be searched.
<thekorn> If you run bughelper and one of the clues in an clue files matches the content of the related '<info>' node will be printed as the output.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> As an example, if you run 'bughelper -p bughelper' you will get an output like:
<thekorn>   http://launchpad.net/bugs/88102 [[bughelper: Confirmed/Medium],[bughelper (Ubuntu): Confirmed/Undecided]] - tags: xpath or commandline; importance: Undecided
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> With this I would like to finish the first part of this session about the bughelper tools. Any further questions?
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Ok, then let's have a brief look at the underlieing python modul 'python-launchpad-bugs'
<thekorn> afflux> you can test very simple searches by using: bughelper -p package -T package  "keyword" "description". This can be very useful for finding duplicates of crasher bugs which differ slightly. I used "bughelper -A -p compiz -T compiz workaroundRemoveFromFullscreenList 'dup of bug 183685'" for finding a lot of duplicates of this bug
<thekorn> thanks afflux, good point, forgot to tell you about this.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> good, than I think it's time for python-launchpad-bugs
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> python-launchpad-bugs allows you to access bugs.launchpad.net via python.
<thekorn> This python module is used by many tools like apport, ubuntu-dev-tools and of course bughelper and bugnumbers.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Let me give you a short "Howto" on using python-launchpad-bugs.
<thekorn> This requires some basic understanding of python.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Let's start a python session and do some general preparation:
<thekorn> >>> import launchpadbugs.connector as Connector
<thekorn> >>> from launchpadbugs.basebuglistfilter import URLBugListFilter
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> so far so good, let's get a list of all open bugs in the bughelper project
<thekorn> >>> BugList = Connector.ConnectBugList()
<thekorn> >>> bl = BugList("https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs")
<thekorn> Each element of this list has attributes like 'bugnumber', 'url', 'status' and 'importance'.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Getting filtered lists is also very easy:
<thekorn> >>> bug_filter = URLBugListFilter()
<thekorn> >>> bug_filter.add_option("status", ("New","Confirmed"))
<thekorn> >>> bug_filter.add_option("importance", ("Medium",))
<thekorn> >>> bl = BugList(bug_filter("https://bugs.launchpad.net/bughelper/+bugs"))
<thekorn> It's also possible to use any python functions as a filter, but this would go too far right now.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Okay, that's all about bug lists for now, for more information please visit http://tinyurl.com/yrmze9
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Now, let's have a look on how to handle bugreports with python-launchpad-bugs:
<thekorn> >>> Bug = Connector.ConnectBug()
<thekorn> >>> b = Bug(123456)
<thekorn> The argument of Bug() can either be a bug number, an url of a bugreport or an element of a BugList-object
<thekorn> There is a huge amount of attributes of a bug-object.
<thekorn> You can access almost all information of a bugreport.
<thekorn> Let's have a look at some examples:
<thekorn> >>> b.url
<thekorn> 'https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xine-lib/+bug/123456'
<thekorn> >>> print b.subscriptions
<thekorn> set([<user ken-paulsen (Valyander)>, [...], <user kubuntu-sujee (LinuxLover)>])
<thekorn> >>> print b.comments
<thekorn> [<Comment #1 by kubuntu-sujee on 2007-07-03 07:17:39 UTC>,[...],<Comment #6 by bersace on 2007-09-30 22:04:49 UTC>]
<thekorn> For a list of all attributes of a Bug-object and some examples on using these attributes have a look at http://tinyurl.com/2mboze
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> So far, we have only read bugs, but with python-launchpad-bugs you can also change bugreports in a very easy way!
<thekorn> First of all, only registered user can change bugreports in launchpad, so let's authenticate with our account data:
<thekorn> >>> Bug.authentication = {"password":"<your-password>","email":"<your-login-email>"}
<thekorn> There is also another possibility of authentication: you can use a mozilla cookie-file (this for example works for cookies created by epiphany or firefox < 3.0)
<thekorn> >>> Bug.authentication = "/path/to/the/cookiefile/cookie.txt"
<thekorn> If you are using Firefox 3.0 'Bug.authentication' also accepts the new .sqlite type of cookie files.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Now I want to show you, as an example, how to change the status of a bug:
<thekorn> >>> demo = Bug(193948)
<thekorn> >>> demo.status
<thekorn> 'New'
<thekorn> >>> demo.status = "Invalid"
<thekorn> >>> demo.commit()
<thekorn> Until you call the 'commit()'-method all changes are local, with 'commit()' you try to commit all changes you did locally to launchpad.
<thekorn> Like this you can for example change the description, add comments or attachments, subscribe to a bug or change the tags.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Any further questions?
<thekorn> let's move on
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Let's have a look at two more complex examples.
<thekorn> You can get this scripts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/Dev/python-launchpad-bugs/Examples
<thekorn> These two scripts show you how to use python-launchpad-bugs to do things you can't do in launchpad itself.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Let's say you are a developer of an upstream project in launchpad.
<thekorn> When you create a package of your tool and build it for ubuntu, bugs in ubuntu are closed by the (LP: #123456) syntax, but upstream bugs were not.
<thekorn> The first example also closes this upstream bugs in your project and adds a comment containing the changelog-entry.
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> I wrote the second example in the last February when we had all these python-central bugreports.
<thekorn> This example returns you a list of bugs created in ubuntu after 2008-02-18 and filters this list by the following criteria:
<thekorn>   * 'pycentral' or 'python-central' in the content of the bugreport
<thekorn>   * an attachment called 'DpkgTerminalLog.gz' which contains 'pycentral' or 'python-central'
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> As a last example I would like to show you how to create a bugreport with python-launchpad-bugs, it's only one line of code!
<thekorn> >>> b = Bug.New(
<thekorn> ... product = {"name":"buglog-data"},
<thekorn> ... summary = "First part of the session is almost over",
<thekorn> ... description = "Ubuntu Open week rocks!")
<thekorn> This creates a new bugreport in the 'buglog-data'-project, if you would like to file a bugreport in ubuntu use
<thekorn> 'product = {"target": "ubuntu", "name": "my-package"}'
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Ok, that's all about python-launchpad-bugs for now, time for some questions!
<thekorn> <afflux> QUESTION: why is len(launchpadbugs.connector.ConnectBug()(123456).comments) == 0 for me?
<thekorn> <afflux> sorry if that's too much support ;)
<thekorn> afflux, I think it's a bug or something :)
<thekorn> as the text-mode works
<thekorn> will investigate after this session. let's move on with other questions
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> <qense> QUESTION: Do requests with this package require more or less bandwidth than visiting the website? Or is it the same?
<thekorn> That's an interesting question,
<thekorn> as LP does not provide a scripting database interface yet,
<thekorn> python-launchpad-bugs is doing screen scrapping,
<thekorn> this means in almost all cases the required bandwidth is the same.
<thekorn> I hope that there will be a public database interface to launchpad.net soon
<thekorn> this will make a lot of things easier
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> <ScottK> QUESTION: Is there a way via pyhon-launchpadbugs I can get back a list of possible duplicates (like the LP web interface does when reporting a new bug)?
<thekorn> ScottK, not yet, but I think this is a very good idea, just made a note on my TODO list
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Ok, as far as I can see, i answered all questions.
<thekorn> Let me end the first part of this session with a few notes:
<thekorn>   * bughelper has a separate mailing list, bughelper@l.u.c
<thekorn>   * browse https://launchpad.net/python-launchpad-bugs and https://launchpad.net/bughelper to file bugreports or get the code
<thekorn>   * for more information check out our wiki pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper
<thekorn>   * and last but not least ping me in #ubuntu-bugs
<thekorn> please use this if you have any questions,
<thekorn> would like to see a certain feature
<thekorn> or I you would like to contribute to bughelper and python-launchpad-bugs
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Ok, I think that's all for the first part of this session.
<thekorn> As jcastro mentioned at the beginning,
<thekorn> there were some changes to the schedule, some I will be here for another hour ;)
<jcastro> We can continue to answer questions.
<jcastro> And we can talk about 5-a-day
<jcastro> If you haven't heard about 5-a-day: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
<jcastro> The basic idea is for everyone to touch 5 bugs a day
<jcastro> During the Reporting Bugs and Bugsquad sessions Brian and Pedro discussed bug filing and triaging teachniques
<jcastro> Note that those sessions will be repeated tomorrow @ 1700 and 1800 UTC
<jcastro> With 5-a-day we have provided tools to keep track of bugs you touch
<jcastro> which get reported to launchpad, and then we generate statistics
<jcastro> Current statistics are here: http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
<jcastro> the stats are broken down into individuals and teams
<jcastro> so you can register your Ubuntu Local Team and get tracked via stats
<jcastro> So for example, the team I belong to, ubuntu-michigan, has helped triage 1015 bugs
<jcastro> This is useful because a) It motivates people in my team to get involved
<jcastro> b) It provides metrics so we can measure how effective our team is when it comes to contributing to Ubuntu
<jcastro> c) It's nice to be able to say "I helped Ubuntu triage 214 bugs" so I sleep better at night. :)
<jcastro> questions so far?
<jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: What is the function of a tag?
<jcastro> So with the 5-a-day tool you can "tag" bugs with certain tags
<jcastro> we use tags to tag bugs that are fixed during a specific event
<jcastro> so for example if you participate in a Hug Day, you tag your bugs with the tag for that day
<jcastro> this helps us see how effective we are at triaging bugs during Hug Days
<jcastro> Note that this is a voluntary project, you don't have to participate, and many people just triage bugs in launchpad without being part of 5-a-day
<jcastro> which is fine, but it's nice to get a sample on how we're doing for hugs day
<jcastro> Anyone can use the tags in 5-a-day
<jcastro> So for example, if you and your friends want to get together and triage bugs
<jcastro> We have this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
<jcastro> So for example you and friends can have a "Quense's Bug Killing Blastorama" bug jam, tag it in 5-a-day, and it will show up in the statistics
<jcastro> As you can see in the lp log: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~5-a-day/5-a-day-data/main
<jcastro> People are committing and sending in data all the time.
<jcastro> What I do every day
<jcastro> is run the applet in my panel
<jcastro> and as I triage/report/comment on bugs, I drag the firefox tab into the applet
<jcastro> and the applet reports it up to launchpad.
<jcastro> Some days I don't get many done, some days I do more than 5, which is fine also
<jcastro> Any more questions?
<thekorn> the applet does not only work with firefox but also with all other mozilla based browsers,
<jcastro> If you do participate, there are tips on the wiki for generating your own email signature in both plain text and html.
<thekorn> and the applet does also work in xfce, and there will be a QT version soon
<jcastro> So that people know what bugs you've touched.
<jcastro> So in short, if you're going to be triaging and other bug work, we encourage you to sign up for 5-a-day
<jcastro> and your friends in your local group
<jcastro> kubuntu-de.org is leading the pack with 1292 bugs, but hard work will move your team up the leaderboard!
<jcastro> Ok, we have 30 minutes left, any more questions on bughelper or 5-a-day?
<thekorn> If there are no questions, I would like to point you to two tools which are using python-launchpad-bugs:
<thekorn> First one is 'Gnome Launchpad Bugs Applet'
<thekorn> https://launchpad.net/lp-bugs-applet/
<thekorn> It's an applet based on Chris Lamb's 'debian-bts-applet'
<thekorn> It shows you your pet bugs in a list in your gnome panel
<thekorn> you can feed this list with tools like bugnumbers or you can get all bugs of an ubuntu hug-day
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> another one is 'hugday-tools'
<thekorn> https://launchpad.net/hugday-tools/
<thekorn> this simlifies editing of the hug-day wiki-pages
<thekorn> via the commandline
<thekorn> so you don't have to edit the wiki pages directly in your browser,
<thekorn> the only thing you have to do is:
<thekorn>   hugday close 123456
<thekorn> to mark bug 123456 in lightgreen and add your nickname to this row on the wiki page
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> <qense> should we also talk about the requirements for joining ubuntu-bugcontrol?
<thekorn> I suggest moving this to tomorrows sessions with bdmurray and pedro_,
<thekorn> as I'm definitely not the right person to talk about this
<thekorn>  
<thekorn> Ok, if there are no questions left,
<thekorn> and if there is nothing to add
<thekorn> and, of course, jcastro has nothing to add,
<thekorn> I think we should all take a small break,
<thekorn> and wait for the next session
<jcastro> Thanks Markus for showing us bughelper!
<thekorn> jcastro, thanks for organizing this week!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Q+A" - Jorge Castro
<jcastro> Hi everyone, welcome to Ubuntu Q+A!
<jcastro> A quick introduction, my name is Jorge Castro and I work @ Canonical on the Ubuntu Community team with Jono Bacon and Daniel Holbach. Our collective job is to help the community rock. We do this in various ways, such as organizing things like this OpenWeek and working on processes to grow the Ubuntu community.
<jcastro> We had a last-minute schedule change (sorry!) which left this time slot open, so I am going to open it up to general Ubuntu Q+A for this hour.
<jcastro> Some caveats: I'm not a developer in the sense of "I hack on code" so I will probably not be able to answer deep technical questions. But I can at least point you in the right direction. If you want to ask questions about how things work Ubuntu in general then I can probably answer those.
<jcastro> Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixed with "QUESTION:" and we'll begin!
<jcastro> < james_w> QUESTION: what's your favourite part of your job? What's your least favourite?
<jcastro> Favorite is working with people from around the world who are passionate about Ubuntu
<jcastro> I don't really have a least favorite part, I'm an ubuntu addict so it's all good.
<jcastro> < musashi> QUESTION: hardy is great. thanks to all. i am curious though if there is any discussion about an add on cd like  edubuntu has.
<jcastro> Since Ubuntu ships on one CD there's often not enough room for a bunch more software
<jcastro> There are the DVD images which have more stuff on them
<jcastro> Things like add-on CDs for more things are possible, I will note it down and bring it up @ UDS
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Any plans to give keynotes  by ubuntu core members(Steve Jobs style :p)?
<jcastro> We have an event called Ubuntu Live: http://en.oreilly.com/ubuntu2008/public/content/home
<jcastro> This is where glossy keynote-style presentations are given
<jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: What is the role of Canoncial withing the Ubuntu wordl/community? What does it exactly do?
<jcastro> Canonical sponsors Ubuntu and sells accompanying support and services
<jcastro> It sponsors events like the Ubuntu Developer Summit, FOSSCamp, and employs people to work on Ubuntu.
<jcastro> Since Ubuntu is a community project Jono, Daniel, and I are tasked with keeping that relationship healthy and continue to make it grow.
<jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: How does a daily day look like for you? Do you go to office or work at home?
<jcastro> Most of us work from home.
<jcastro> For me I start work @ 9am, check mail and irc messages and work on my task list.
<jcastro> Like most things in Ubuntu, most work is done via irc and mailing lists.
<jcastro> < musashi> QUESTION: early in the hardy cycle, i saw discussions about a highly updated look (black and orange theme). The  mockups i saw looked really nice. what happened to that idea? are there discussions about glossing things up in the  future?
<jcastro> Ken talked about this in more detail in his session on art: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/Artwork
<jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: What kind of tasks do you have?
<jcastro> for me I focus on external developer relations, which means I communicate with upstream projects and help our relationship with them
<jcastro> this usually revolves around bug workflow
<jcastro> So for example if you find a bug in Evolution and it's an upstream bug, my job is to help make sure that upstream knows there's a problem
<jcastro> We use launchpad's linking ability to connect launchpad bugs to upstream bugs, so that both the distro and the upstream developers are aware of the bugs
<jcastro> and that patches flow from Ubuntu developers to upstreams
<jcastro> I use this launchpad page: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<jcastro> The more green on that page in the last few columns, the better. :D
<jcastro> < Lardarse> QUESTION: How many people who work at Canonical are involved with Ubuntu, and what percentage is that of the people  that work there?
<jcastro> I am unsure on the percentage, but Canonical has been growing recently
<jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: Follow UP: What about dholbach and jono areas of responsibility?
<jcastro> dholbach primarily works with MOTU, which are our maintainers of the universe section of Ubuntu
<jcastro> For example he recently rewrote large portions of the packaging guide to make it easier for new people to understand.
<jcastro> And he runs MOTU Q+A IRC sessions on a regular basis, came up with 5-a-day, and generally looks for ways to grow the development community inside Ubuntu.
<jcastro> Jono leads the team and generally covers the rest of the Ubuntu community, such as Local Teams
<jcastro> < uvok> QUESTION: where can the reweritten packaging guide be found? at wiki.ubuntu.com?
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<jcastro> < pimanx> QUESTION: What do you see as the main problem regarding the growth of the Ubuntu community? Let's say we got five  times as big - couldn't size become a real problem to the community? And how do we address that problem? :)
<jcastro> Good question!
<jcastro> Scaling can be really hard sometimes, so we are finding ways to deal with the explosive growth
<jcastro> one example is that in the past to become an Ubuntu member you had to come to a community council meeting to be approved.
<jcastro> That proved to be difficult because with so many volunteers the CC was swamped in these multi-hour meetings, so now we've created regional councils
<jcastro> so that should become much smoother
<jcastro> Another area where scaling becomes a problem is bugs
<jcastro> As we get more users many of them report bugs
<jcastro> A good number of these can be triaged or marked as duplicate
<jcastro> This is why he have Hug Days and started 5-a-day to help people get involved with the growing number of bugs.
<jcastro> Note that I mean "bug" as in "someone reported something to launchpad", not necessarily a software defect.
<jcastro> Getting involved with triaging is an excellent low-barrier way to help out, so if you want to get involved you should check out #ubuntu-bugs and their mailing list
<jcastro> < pimanx> Question: The regional council sounds like a fine idea, but one of the consequences of that will be further distance  between top ubuntu and bottom ubuntu, and thus have an impact the willingness to contribute and the sense of 'ubuntu -  my project' ?
<jcastro> Everything in the community process is transparent and done in the public, like everything else, so I don't see "distance" being a problem
<jcastro> Ubuntu membership has always been granted according to contribution, and that won't change
<jcastro> *waiting for more questions*
<jcastro> < evarlast[jrwren]> QUESTION: As a poweruser & developer, I feel like Ubuntu is "done" in comparison to other distributions and  the windows and mac alternatives. What areas will future ubuntu be inovating in?
<jcastro> As with all software, I wouldn't consider Ubuntu "done" at all, there is always new stuff that people want and new hardware
<jcastro> Like Ted mentioned in his talk yesterday https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/DesktopFuture there are plenty of areas where we can innovate
<jcastro> Especially as driver support gets better there is plenty of work to be done. :D
<jcastro> But if you're happy with Ubuntu how it is now you can stick to Hardy for 3 years. :D
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Do think the Ubuntu forums do/can serves as an entry to the community world? If so, do you keep an eye on  what's going in there so it can help?
<jcastro> I read the forums daily (user number 74!)
<jcastro> But they can be overwhelming at times due to the amount of traffic on there.
<jcastro> Most developers don't have time to read the forums, so we have forum community people (such as Mike Basinger) who attend our development summits and keep us informed of what's going on in the forums
<jcastro> There is definately lot of community work that can be done in the forums
<jcastro> such as answering posts that have no response and general help.
<jcastro> Plus the forums have a nice cultural twist of funny threads that help break up the monotony of discussing linux all day. :D
<jcastro> In think in general information has been flowing from the forums to developers much better than it used to
<jcastro> A good deal of "Hey I have an idea" type information is now available via brainstorm
<jcastro> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<jcastro> In the past there would be tons of threads in the forums about ideas and it was difficult to sort through them all
<jcastro> now we have an excellent tool to measure what users would like to see in Ubuntu
<jcastro> < qense> QUESTION: Who reviews the ideas at brainstorm and what are the requirements to be a accepted?
<jcastro> The ideas from brainstorm are voted by the community.
<jcastro> For this UDS we'll be looking at the most popular ideas and discussing them.
<jcastro> Since brainstorm is new we really haven't ever taken in this kind of input, so stay tuned into what happens @ UDS
<jcastro> To tie into the forums question this UDS we have 23meg (mgunes) attending UDS and he will be posting updates about UDS to the forums.
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Why dont you add restricted codecs/wfi drivers etc... in a oficial supported ubuntu, leaving current ubuntu  as Gobuntu?
<jcastro> restricted drivers are on the CD already
<jcastro> When you install Ubuntu you get a little popup if your hardware requires closed drivers, you click on it and follow the directions.
<jcastro> As far as installing them _by default_, it was a concious decision to inform the user and have them elect to install the driver.
<jcastro> But yes, they are on the CD (nvidia, ati, etc.)
<jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION : why does hardy on loading desktop with desktop effects on and nvidia drivers black out for some  seconds? is this due to the image loading, should it be given more proirity on loading ?
<jcastro> I am unsure what you're seeing, but generally the entire boot process can be smoothed out
<jcastro> currently you get mode switches and all this scary stuff that happens
<jcastro> there has been work in the upstream kernel and intel driver to make the mode switching go away but it will take some time to sort that out.
<jcastro> I am unsure to as how nvidia will support that functionality
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: After the booting bar, you have a few secs of a brown screen and then the desktop appears. Any plans on  changing this?
<jcastro> Login time is something that we will be looking at during UDS
<jcastro> For example I tend to add a bunch of panel applets to my desktop which makes login in longer
<jcastro> But tied into the question above, there are many improvements that could be made to the entire booting/login in process, and yes, they're on the radar to fix. :D
<jcastro> < rick_h_> Question: when will Ubuntu properties become openid "consumers"? :)
<jcastro> Missed that one, sorry rick_h_ \
<jcastro> Launchpad now offers openid and there is work in progress to move Ubuntu web stuff to openid. See here: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/9/
<jcastro>  < hardywireless> QUESTION: wireless and the ralink drivers seem to be buggy, they fall back to 1bps , and have almost no range ,
<jcastro>                        you need to manually fix them , is this being worked on?
<jcastro> I would have to read the bug, I am not familiar with ralink drivers
<jcastro> the best place to ask that would be on the ubuntu users mailing list.
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION: Why was Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released with so much bugs instead of waiting to solve them?
<jcastro> I guess that depends on how well 8.04 is working for you
<jcastro> A good number of bugs are unfortunately due to hardware support
<jcastro> So for example, my roomates laptop with a broadcom wireless card will probably always be problematic.
<jcastro> The other big one I have noticed people having a problem on is Flash sound
<jcastro> If you were using the Hardy beta then remove libflashsupport.
<jcastro> libflashsupport gets you sound but there were problems with it's stability (It tended to crash Firefox when you went to YouTube)
<jcastro> Unfortunately there's not much we can do to fix Flash problems.
<jcastro> The other problem I see people facing is having to suspend pulse with skype.
<jcastro> So you have to launch skype with "pasuspender skype" for it to work
<jcastro> As with Flash, there's nothing we can really do to fix it, if you're depending on Skype then the best thing to do is ask them for better Linux support.
<jcastro> < Landon> QUESTION: what's with the changes to all the removable media? Instead of them being at /dev/dvd or /dev/cdrom, they're  now at /dev/dvd1 or /dev/cdrom1, which seems to break a few of the autoplay features
<jcastro> I don't know enough about all our HAL stuff to answer this question, that one is better posted to a mailing list, sorry. :(
<jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION: a funny thing happens with printing on firefox, when you zoom in to the page, making the fonts look  bigger , you cant get the site to be printed and text is missing, unless you know this , you would never have a  clue as where to find this error... I hope that every bug found on Hardy , finds it way to the forums, so we
<jcastro>  can read howto fix this, ...hardy bugs found and s olutions..page...:)
<jcastro> Firefox 3.0 RC and final will be pushed out to hardy when they are released
<jcastro> the best thing to do in this case is to search launchpad to see if it has been reported
<jcastro> 10 minutes left, so I guess 2 or three more questions!
<jcastro> < michaelramm> QUESTION: I am catching wind that the new pata (ide subsystem) in the kernel has switched to naming ide drives to  sd instead of hd; so what was /dev/hda3 is now /dev/sda3. Any truth to that?
<jcastro> That change was made a few releases ago
<jcastro> All my stuff shows up as sd*
<jcastro> That change was made in the upstream kernel
<jcastro> < artir> QUESTION:In what year do you personally think ubuntu will really go mainstream?
<jcastro> We'll see, I don't like to make predictions because I'm always wrong, but to me the important thing is continued growth
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Do you know if there is any progress on getting a standard on linux install files? I think it's one of the  things the Linux Foundation is working on.
<jcastro> I have no idea about this, but I am pretty happy with add/remove programs and apt. :)
<jcastro> < hardywireless> QUESTION: what would you like to see next in ubuntu? whats your wish for it ?
<jcastro> I think I have the same list as most people
<jcastro> a) Hardware support
<jcastro> b) More applications
<jcastro> c) Ease of use
<jcastro> ok time for one more question!
<jcastro> < mybunche> QUESTION: Apart form Dell, are there anymore OEM's in the pipeline?
<jcastro> I don't know, but the list is always growing.
<jcastro> I know system76 laptops are popular with ubuntu users
<jcastro> Ok, that's it for me
<jcastro> thanks everyone for showing up and asking questions!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu ISO testing" Henrik Omma & David Morley
<jcastro> heno and davmor2 will be discussing ISO testing, which is a great way to help getting Ubuntu out the door!
<heno> hello :)
<davmor2> hello
<heno> Some of you may have perticipated in ISO testing before the Hardy release
<ompaul> woops
<davmor2> The basis of the testing team is to get the Ubuntu family out of the door with as few major bugs as possible.
<davmor2> The main reason we are here today is that the more tester we have the more bugs get spotted.
<davmor2> The good thing is if you can install ubuntu on your machine at home you can test it before releases.
<heno> thanks, I was locked out for a second :)
<davmor2> There are two main ways to do this one Virtual.  Two on hardware.
<heno> We need to both validate the actual CD images, but also search for bugs generally
<heno> even though the devel version is used regularly by people, structured testing always uncovers bugs
<heno> esp. in features that are not used every day like the installer
<heno> To actually contribute productively in the testing crunch you actually need to prepare a bit ahead of time
<heno> It helps to have read the test cases and pre-download the ISO images
<heno> you then update them with rsync
<heno> the images are often re-spun 2-3 times after the archive freezes as bugs are fixed
<heno> Most of what you'd need to know is covered here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO
<heno> and we hang out in #ubuntu-testing to coordinate
<heno> we test based on the cases here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases and report results here http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<heno> Ok, that's a brief introduction, let's open up for questions
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: i have done some iso testing, and it was great to do, but , having found a bug, i submitted it, and it was worked on, but i could not submit more then one bug report...( as i tested the next daily build the following day )
<heno> next
<heno> hardywireless: I don't understand why you couldn't submit more than one bug report, was this in Launchpad?
<heno> you can only submit one test report for a given test case on a given build, but you can attach as many bug numbers as you need to
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: iso testing site
<heno> if the image had not changed then the original report would still be up and you can edit it to add more bug links
<heno> you click the document view icon next you the report
<heno> at least I think you can update your own cases
<davmor2> hardywireless: The issue here I think is that when a new image is released that becomes the default for tracker.  You can however add comments to the newer version like bug xxxxxx is now fixed etc.
<heno> as site admin I can update all cases
<heno> davmor2: can you confirm that you can edit your own test case reports?
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: i also noticed that the http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/ is not always as up to date as http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/
<davmor2> heno: Yes I edit them regularly to add bug reports.  I tend to put in a note and then write the reports after and add them all at once
<heno> that's true. we need to automate the sync there
<ompaul> <BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: What do you suggest as a minimum amount of time a tester should spend on bug hunting\ testing a build?
<heno> sometimes the golden image candidate will be held back to an earlier build on purpose though
<davmor2> hardywireless: Also the tracker only kicks in for candidate images and not all daily builds
<heno> BonesolTeraDyne: as long as it takes to go through the test case
<heno> testing more is of course a bonus
<ompaul> Question: If I could put together a package that would allow automated installation for testing purposes, is there any possibility that it could be included in the development versions of Ubuntu (assuming it gets sponsored for main, etc)
<heno> in reality we sometimes do quick sanity checks on certain install types or features
<heno> ompaul: how automated? not asking for a password? :)
<ompaul> heno, I have to ask the person who asked me brb
<davmor2> That would be cool.  However sometimes the person doing the install turns up a bug by simply not knowing what to do next :)
<ompaul> hardywireless> ï»¿comment: more of a compliment, as i went to irc ubuntu-testing, the bug i reported was fixed in a few day's just before the release of hardy, thats really great...
<ompaul> heno, yes
<heno> We are doing some automation of install testing of images
<heno> and we also want to automate upgrade testing with a ton of packages installed
<heno> there has also been talk of adding desktop automation test scripts to the live CD - self-testing-desktop
<heno> but I'm not sure I see the value in just installing a bunch of packages automatically
<heno> there are already tools like piuparts, lintian and auto-package-test
<ompaul> heno, they would match jane's or john's use case
<heno> that install and test packages, but that's in a controlled environment like a chroot or kvm
<heno> ompaul: if it's done in a responsible way, then yes
<ompaul> heno, vis the source of the question: <highvoltage> for my question, I was thinking more in terms of iso testing
<heno> I don't want a package installable from synaptic that when run installs 1000 more packages though :)
<ompaul> <highvoltage> so that you could put a bunch of isos (like 20 of them or so) in a directory, and have it all installed in a vm automatically
<heno> highvoltage: from Hardy we can do preseeding of the Ubiquity installer as well, which would be one way to automate it
<heno> another way would be to set up a way to poke into a kvm or vbox instance to drive it
<ompaul> highvoltage> it wouldn't install the packages automatically you would be able to pass a kernel parameter to the boot cd that would automate the /entire/ install process by sending keystrokes to the installer
<heno> highvoltage: we would love to do that for Intrepid and help would be great :)
<heno> highvoltage: yep, I think feeding input to the installer would be even better than pre-seeding, more realistic
<davmor2> highvoltage: it certainly would help take the pressure off installing in vm :)
<heno> highvoltage: let's speak more about the details afterward
<heno> next?
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: can there be a way to blacklist drivers , when booting from livecd , for example if it hangs on a such a driver ...
<heno> this is not my area, but you can turn of certain things like acpi with kernel parameters
<heno> not sure there is an option for every driver
<davmor2> I think one of the key things to remember about the Iso Testing Team is that it is ideal for newish users trying to find a way to contribute to Ubuntu.  There is nothing that technical to testing.  If you can install and run a system you can test.
<heno> hardywireless: ompaul helpfully refers us to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions
<davmor2> next
<ompaul> hardywireless, that page contains a list for how to launch both an installed system and iso with boot options, generally setting module=no is good but cases may break that mode so I would say check before you jump
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: how many people are doing iso testing right now?
<davmor2> Hmmm tricky question.  Does that include all the users who install or upgrade before the release is out?
<heno> hardywireless: there are typically 5-6 people who do a large number of tests and then ~30 who do one test image each or so
<heno> there is an overview at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscriptions
<heno> next?
<ompaul> <hardywireless> QUESTION: whats the next version we can test? :) , and how did you become a tester?
<heno> the next sensible version to test is Intrepid Alpha 1
<heno> there will also be a hardy update release to test
<heno> that reminds me: please run hardy wit -proposed turned on so we can test those updates
<davmor2> I started contributing back to Ubuntu by joining Bug Squad.  However with the apport bug reports becoming more frequent it became to complex for me.  So I looked for something else and at the time Heno asked for testers.
<heno> (I'm employed by Canonical and started dabbling in QA about a year ago)
<heno> I did bug triage first and the coordinated testing for 7.04
<heno> more questions?
<ompaul> <chipitsine> QUESTION: I noticed ext2 cannot be mounted by LABEL even man page states so in 7.05 <chipitsine> in 7.04 actually
<heno> hm, not quite related to ISO testing as such
<ompaul> <ted_> QUESTION: Should more emphasis be placed on testing ubiquity because it can't be updated on the CD, whereas all the other apps can be updated post-install?
<heno> chipitsine: please file general bugs in launchpad
<heno> ted_: it's clearly a major testing target, yes, but from experience we also find important bugs in other things during testing too
<heno> but ubiquity really depends on this testing
<davmor2> ted_: The same can be said for Debian-Installer on the alternative cds too.
<heno> esp. as bugs can be hardware-specific
<heno> that's one reason I'm afraid of automating install testing too much
<heno> human testing will often find things you haven't scripted for
<heno> next?
<heno> We'll take one more I think
<davmor2> especially if the automation is setup by some one with the knowledge to do the install correctly.
<heno> please continue to ask in #ubuntu-testing though
<heno> it's often good to do silly things like navigating back and forth in the installer too
<ompaul> <ted_> QUESTION: Is there any specific effort to test X configuration on different graphics cards / monitors, since that is often an area of difficulty for many users?
<heno> to tease out bugs
<heno> ted_: not since the laptop testing program some years ago. clearly something we should revisit
<davmor2> ted_: I test on really hardware by choice.  This has a selection of different hardware in it.  The only thing I'm short of is Ati gfx chipset.
<heno> we are planning to add hardware profiles to the test tracker so we can see what HW has been covered
<ompaul> comment: (mine) the objective is to be a good human and try to create the innovative exception to the expected behaviour - would you both agree
<ompaul> i.e. try to break it!
<davmor2> Hell yes.  Then report the break :)
<davmor2> Especially if it can be reproduced time and time again
<ompaul> okay guys thanks for a great session
<ompaul> davmor2, heno your mailing list and channel ?
<davmor2> channel is #ubuntu-testing
<ompaul> davmor2, heno yhanks again
<davmor2> list is ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com
<ompaul> <davmor2> list is ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com
<rick_h_> am I green for go?
* ompaul changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise |  Running A Packaging Jam Richard Harding
<ompaul> yes
<rick_h_> cool
<rick_h_>  I'm Rick Harding, a member of the Michigan Loco. You can get a hold of me for any questions or whatnot at rharding@mitechie.com (blog on same site)
<rick_h_> I wanted to go over running of Packaging Jams
<rick_h_> So first thing, how many of you guys have made a package?
<rick_h_> active crown this afternoon
<rick_h_> crowd
<rick_h_> ok, well the point is that if you've gone through it, you know there's a ton of docs
<ompaul> <Syntux> I did for the purpose of learning
<ompaul> <BonesolTeraDyne> I have, though only for personal use
<rick_h_> and it can be a bit overwhelming at first
<rick_h_> I mean, I use Ubuntu and .deb packages because I didn't want to deal with all that compiling, make file, fun and joy.
<rick_h_> So Greg (our loco fearless leader) and I were talking one night about how to make this easier and we thought âwouldn't it be cool if we could get an Ubuntu MOTU to teach us?â
<rick_h_> Now unfortunately you can't mail order a MOTU.
<rick_h_> We tried, but the store was fresh out
<rick_h_> We did find a former MOTU (Aaron Lake) to sit down with us and walk us through the start of learning to create .deb packages.
<rick_h_> So there's your first requirement, someone that can package, even a little.
<rick_h_> Now this is probably the most difficult to accomplish, but the better your mentor the more everyone will get out of the packaging jam.
<rick_h_> Places to look for a mentor are local user groups, an Ubuntu LoCo, and maybe even the #ubuntu-motu channel.
<rick_h_> side note, I've kind of got this all prepped so if I go to fast let me know
<rick_h_> If you can't find someone, you can try to hold it just with the docs. They've gotten much better and the hands on docs (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn) are pretty easy to get through.
<rick_h_> Once you have someone to show the way, it's time to find the venue.
<rick_h_> Good things to look for are plenty of table space for everyone, power, network connectivity, and plenty of beverages.
<rick_h_> I'd suggest saving the good ones for a least half way through the jam :)
<rick_h_> A great alternative would be if you could get a computer lab with a bunch of live cds. One person in our jam connected remotely to my file server running vmware.
<rick_h_> oh yes, snacks as well
<rick_h_> pizza delivery works great for that
<rick_h_> In our case we had some 8 people at my house. Everyone used my home network and downloaded packages over my cable modem. Most of the packages you need are small and wasn't much of a strain on the cable line.
<rick_h_> If bandwidth is an issue, try to provide a debmirror on the local network. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Debmirror
<rick_h_> The mirror will provide the packages to everyone without requiring an internet connection.
<rick_h_> Make sure to plan of some people not being up to date. How many of you all run something other than hardy currently?
<rick_h_> ok, guess we're all up to date, nice
<rick_h_> So we've got our mentor, our network and location, next up we need to do some pre-planning. This should be done with the mentor.
<rick_h_> You want to plan out the course of action. Go through the docs and figure out what you want to cover in the time you have.
<rick_h_> Just a heads up, whatever time you have, plan on doubling it. I originally planned for a 4 hour session.
<rick_h_> After backtracking to get everyone a GPG key, uploading them to LP, signing each other's keys, and getting through things...we had run into 8 hours long.
<rick_h_> We didn't cover everything I had wanted to, but in the end we covered a lot of ground.
<rick_h_> So for the docs, there are a lot out there and dholbach has done some great stuff in cleaning them up.
<rick_h_> If you have lots of time, start out with the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PackagingOverview and move on to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn and then go through the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic
<rick_h_> If you're short of time, you should be able to get through the first two docs in a couple of hours.
<rick_h_> Go through the docs with your mentor and plan out what you want to cover, and if you can, write out the guide with copy/paste commands.
<rick_h_> this makes life much easier for everyone to follow and avoids tracing down typos for hours
<rick_h_> people can then copy/paste the guide and take it home with them
<rick_h_> You can see how I did this for my Penguicon talk by using the HandsOn as a sample. http://wiki.avwsystems.com//doku.php/linux/packaging/penguicon_2008
<rick_h_> At the talk, I hosted it on a wiki on my laptop and had everyone in the room connect to it. This way we can all walk through step by step together.
<rick_h_> Our first packaging jam we used gobby over the network. This worked well, but gobby has a few lacking features that make life difficult.
<rick_h_> _stink_: yea, I prefer the wiki format
<rick_h_> people can still edit the page, or create new pages
<rick_h_> but you avoid the gobby issues
<rick_h_> like
<rick_h_> 1) Copying and pasting is dangerous as people tend to paste over content.
<rick_h_> 2) Gobby doesn't have undo...so see
<rick_h_> so see 1)
<rick_h_> 3) everyone has to install it while running a local wiki just means everyone points their web browser at my IP.
<rick_h_> and everyone has a browser so you're golden off the bat
<rick_h_> does that make sense _stink_ ?
<rick_h_> It's best if you can test out the commands ahead of time to watch for packages that need to be installed, config options changed, and potential issues.
<ompaul> <_stink_> rick_h_: QUESTION: First off, thanks for hosting that Pack. Jam. I had a great time. We used gobby to share notes, with mixed results. Do you have recommendations for sharing shell commands/links/GPG key IDs/etc.?
<rick_h_> ok, so see above for that one, wiki ftw! and of course dokuwiki is the best
<rick_h_> Once this is done, it's really just a matter of going through the material together. Make sure everyone is up to date at all times and if there are any questions that can't be answered, write them down and follow up.
<rick_h_> If you have network access try to get some help in #ubuntu-motu. The more you can get done together, the better the jam will be getting everyone started
<rick_h_> So this leads us to what should people expect to get out of a Packaging Jam.
<rick_h_> First, they should realize they're not alone.
<rick_h_> My packaging talk at penguicon was packed. So many people want to learn packaging, but it's a bit intimidating.
<rick_h_> I mean there are a ton of rules, docs, new commands, everything must be exactly formatted
<rick_h_> I won't try to say it's easy, but with a Jam it's easier to get through things. Almost like a classroom
<rick_h_> Second, if you can, try to make it meaningful to the participants. I asked people to bring something they'd like to see packaged, updated, etc.
<rick_h_> One guy brought up this xastir package that was out of date.
<rick_h_> When we got to talking about updating packages with a new upstream tarball, we use xastir as a second example.
<rick_h_> This way, he left with something a bit more real then packaging the hello application
<rick_h_> He had a need to learn packaging and when he went home, he could work on that package.
<rick_h_> after all, we all want to learn how to package things for some reason
<rick_h_> myself I took what I learned and combined with the Launchpad PPAs helped do the first packages for the Gnome Do application
<rick_h_> suddenly the user base went boom! People want easy to install applications
<rick_h_> I'd like to think the xastir guy would be likely to maintain/update that package in the future.
<rick_h_> Syntux> QUESTION: Giving participant the liberty to pick the package would make things harder on the instructor side especially if he's not a MOTU, or there is a magical trick around that?
<rick_h_> First, if you can get examples ahead of time the better
<rick_h_> we had a few guys bring things, one wanted to learn how to do a meta-package for his work stuff
<rick_h_> which we didn't get to and our former MOTU couldn't recall how to do
<rick_h_> so there's definitely some practical side to things
<rick_h_> but any time you can get someone a practical use for this stuff he'll leave happier
<rick_h_> I mean, we all went to school and had to learn a bunch of stuff...but the coolest was the stuff we could use
<rick_h_> make sense?
<rick_h_> ScottK: definitely. At the time the docs were setup to start with packaging Hello fresh
<rick_h_> and it's definitely harder to do
<rick_h_> dholbach has done some great work making it a bit different now
<rick_h_> the hands on guide, fixing the bug first, is much easier to get into
<rick_h_> and I'd definitely suggest starting with those smaller examples before moving up to packaging new stuff
<rick_h_> there's a lot more use in fixes/updating vs new software for the most part anyway
<rick_h_> So ask people to bring problems. This will definitely add to the amount of time needed, but really adds a LOT to the jam.
<rick_h_> so that's about what there to a jam
<rick_h_> mentor, people, venue, plan
<rick_h_> So let's say you had a jam, make sure to let us know.
<rick_h_> There's a bunch of wiki pages for showing you have a jam coming, and telling us how it went.
<rick_h_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam add it to the events page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Events
<rick_h_> Blog about it coming up and let us know so we can blog about it. We want you to have a great audience.
<rick_h_> our first jam was 8 people with only 1 knowing much about packaging and that was about right I flet
<rick_h_> felt*
<rick_h_> Finally, make sure you follow up.
<rick_h_> I know we've planned on holding another jam here soon.
<rick_h_> Now that the first one is over with there's a larger pool of people to help run it.
<rick_h_> There's also the possibility of having a second âadvancedâ track for next time.
<rick_h_> it's definitely not something that is limited to a one time thing, there's always more to learn/do
<rick_h_> So repeat of my email in case anyone needs/wants any info rharding@mitechie.com
<rick_h_> Does anyone have any questions?
<rick_h_> kind of ran through that quick...make sense to everyone?
<ompaul> <Syntux> QUESTION: Would you recommend any prerequisite to the audience?
<rick_h_> hmm, well I made sure I sent out links ahead of time for people to do any pre-reading they could do
<ompaul> <Syntux> I'm actually reading up to run a packaging jam but I'm bit afraid of doing so :D
<rick_h_> the big thing is that packaging work is terminal work
<rick_h_> so make sure people are aware of that.
<ompaul> <jcastro> QUESTION: Can you talk about bitesize bugs?
<rick_h_> it hasn't been an issue, but some people think the terminal will bite them
<rick_h_> bitesize bugs, that's a new packagers playground
<rick_h_> sec, let me find the link
<rick_h_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
<rick_h_> so bitesize bugs are bugs that someone has looked at
<rick_h_> and found should be a small quick fix
<rick_h_> often you see things like a package is missing a .desktop file
<rick_h_> something that's pretty easy for someone learning to package to bite into
<rick_h_> so a good follow up packaging jam would be to hold a bitesize bug session
<rick_h_> get those guys/gals back together and see if together you can tackle some of those bitesize bugs
<ScottK> dholbach has a list of 'really-fix-it' bugs
<ScottK> This is a list of bugs that have fixes somewhere, they just need to be brought into Ubuntu.
<jcastro> http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it/
<ScottK> These are much easier to work on than new packages and let you start relatively small and work up.
<rick_h_> RainCT ran a jam. What did you think? Did people get something out of it?
<ScottK> You also dono't need to know programming, just packaging since there's already a fix out there somewhere.
<rick_h_> great point, packaging != programming all the time.
<rick_h_> it can definitely help in some cases, but don't let that stop you from getting involved and learning
<ScottK> As a MOTU, I find what we really need is more help making our existing packages better.
<ScottK> We'll never package everything, but it's important to work to improve quality of what we have.
<rick_h_> any other questions?
<rick_h_> Syntux: what keeps you from having a jam?
<rick_h_> Syntux: definitely understand with a small user base it's hard to get the knowledge in there
<rick_h_> but make sure you check if there's anyone in your area, ask around
<rick_h_> in our case I didn't know Aaron our former MOTU
<rick_h_> he didn't attend the loco, or even our local LUG
<rick_h_> and it was by word of mouth and me asking around if anyone know packaging we found him to help
<rick_h_> So hope you see the cool potential. It's a bit of good ole 2 heads > 1
<rick_h_> and if you can get 8 guys together, there's now a lot more people in the area to help with things
<rick_h_> I ran into a guy that attended the first jam and he was working on getting together with his fav software project to help them and their ubuntu packaging
<rick_h_> so it's very cool to see stuff like this pay off down the road
<rick_h_> and hey, we need more balloons on the map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=108939198110825717970.000446fc38319d9edd513&z=3
<ompaul> Syntux> rick_h_, you just inspired me; I'll try to get some soon-to-graduate CS students to get them package their projects.
<rick_h_> Syntux: well take ScottK's advice though. Definitely start with existing stuff
<rick_h_> MUCH MUCH easier
<rick_h_> that's why the newer hands on docs are so great
<rick_h_> people want to feel like they made progress quickly
<rick_h_> Rock On balloons!
<rick_h_> well, if you want to give it a shot, feel free to ask me anything
<rick_h_> most of the docs are good at pointing you where to go
<rick_h_> so who's next in this fine openweek?
<jcastro> next up is xivulon with Wubi, in about 12 minutes!
<ompaul> tea break?
<jcastro> yep!
<jcastro> unless anyone has more questions for rick_h_?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Wubi" - Agostino Russo
<jcastro> Ok, about 5 minutes until "Wubi" with Agostino Russo
<jcastro> ok xivulon, take it away!
<xivulon> thanks jcastro
<xivulon> Hi all,
<xivulon> I am Agostino Russo,  some of you may know me as ago
<xivulon> If it is ok, I would like to start with an introduction to Wubi, a few insights, some explanation on how it works and how to contribute.
<xivulon> Then we move to Q&A
<xivulon> To get some basic information on Wubi you might also be interested in these 2 links:
<xivulon> http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php
<xivulon> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide
<xivulon> As you may know, Wubi allows users to install Ubuntu into a file within a Windows filesystem.
<xivulon> The aim driving the project has always been to make Wubi one of the easiest OS installers ever
<xivulon> in order to expand the user base by reaching out to new users
<xivulon> and slash urban legends about Linux "difficulty"
<xivulon> There might be some road to cover still, but I think we are on track :)
<xivulon> And the community has been Key and I would like to spend a couple of words on that!
<xivulon> Wubi itself in fact was born as an Ubuntu community project.
<xivulon> The original idea came from my involvement in helping users on the forum, and observing common stumbling blocks, such as ISO burning, repartitioning, and concerns about bootloader changes.
<xivulon> And it grew from there
<xivulon> (see http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php#development for the rest of the story and a full list of credits)
<xivulon> If you visit the wubi forum http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=234 you will notice that myself  and the other developers have answered most user requests.
<xivulon> Keeping a very direct link with the users is how we improve Wubi in a direction that is close to user needs.
<xivulon> This is true for all of Ubuntu, whose community truly rocks!
<xivulon> and Wubi is just one of the many examples of what we can do together!
<xivulon> Hence I would like to thank all the users that helped testing and contributed to Wubi.
<xivulon> Thank YOU!
<xivulon> And of course Wubi is only the tip of the iceberg.
<xivulon> If an installation goes smoothly, if your hardware is well detected and works out of the box, and your desktop experience is great and cool,
<xivulon> there is tons of work behind the scenes well outside of the Wubi project boundaries.
<xivulon> What makes up the user experience is not just wubi, it is the effort of thousands of developers, from the devs that contributed to the Debian installer and Ubiquity, to the upstream developers, to all the kernel hackers!
<xivulon> (Incidentally that works the other way too: if something does not work, it is not always Wubi fault... )
<xivulon> :)
<xivulon> How does Wubi work?
<xivulon> Many think it is a virtual machine or similar
<xivulon> It is not
<xivulon> It is a 100% real installation
<xivulon> everything runs on real iron, except for some trickery used for the hard disk access
<xivulon> If you wish, you can think of Wubi as a virtual machine that only virtualises the hard disk, while keeping everything else native.
<xivulon> This for instance allows you to get full 3D acceleration and enjoy the wonderful Compiz desktop effects.
<xivulon> And this is why a dual boot is required.
<xivulon> Also some people are confused by the fact that Wubi "requires" Windows.
<xivulon> Of course the front-end would need Windows to run, but once installed, Wubi requires only the Windows filesystem
<xivulon> Do you know what happens to a Wubi installation if you delete all of C:\Windows?
<xivulon> Absolutely
<xivulon> nothing
<xivulon> You can still boot and use Ubuntu.
<xivulon> Wubi uses 4 main technologies:
<xivulon> 1) It beverages the ability of a Linux kernel to access a file as if it was a real device (loop mounts).
<xivulon> Most of you might have used that when mounting ISO files.
<xivulon> 2) It uses grub4dos, which is a special version of grub that can run on a Windows filesystem.
<xivulon> Grub4Dos does not actually replace the Windows bootloader, we keep the Windows bootloader and add an entry so that it will "pass the ball" to grub4dos, which in turn can launch a Linux kernel and initrd
<xivulon> 3) ntfs-3g which is the Linux user-space drivers that allows r/w access to ntfs.
<xivulon> Without that it would not be possible to perform write operations to the virtual disks in the ntfs filesystem
<xivulon> 4) On the Linux side, wubi uses an unattended installation techniques known as "preseeding", courtesy of the Debian-Installer and Ubiquity that then read such instructions and deliver you the finished product.
<xivulon> If you are interested about preseeding Evan Dandrea gave a talk on the subject https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/PreseedingUbiquity
<xivulon> Also on the Linux side there were quite a few changes that were required for Ubuntu to be able to target a loopfile, and be able to boot and reboot off a loopfile.
<xivulon> Such changes were originally in the Lupin project, but have now been integrated upstream within Ubuntu, thanks to the efforts of myself, Colin J Watson, and Evan Dandrea.
<xivulon> The changes involved packages such as grub-installer, grub, sysvinit scripts, initamfs-tools, partman-auto-loop and a few others.
<xivulon> As it stands today the use of a loopfile instead of a real hard-disk is the only difference between a Wubi installation and an installation to a dedicated partition.
<xivulon> This is not to be taken lightly though
<xivulon> And I would like to expand on the subject a bit:
<xivulon> One implication is lower I/O performance because of the extra overhead (see also http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/1/9/50).
<xivulon> Your performance will also depend on the state of the host filesystem, so if fat/ntfs is very fragmented the disk I/O performance of Ubuntu will deteriorate.
<xivulon> In normal circumstances you should not expect very noticeable changes, but there are scenarios where the performance hit might be more evident.
<xivulon> Another related issue is that you have a nested filesystem, this makes the configuration less robust, particularly to power outages.
<xivulon> This is because data loss in the host filesystem can result in journal loss in the nested filesystem.
<xivulon> While we have taken some measure to minimize the risks, it is unlikely that we can eliminate them altogether.
<xivulon> Unless we can achieve native fs installations...
<xivulon> Finally the swap device is also a file, and hibernation does not work in such circumstances.
<xivulon> Because of the above, as a long term installation I always suggest to go for the "good old way" and install to a dedicated partition.
<xivulon> Wubi is a great way to take Ubuntu for a ride.
<xivulon> But if you know about ISO burning and partitioning and/or like Ubuntu and want to use it on a permanent basis, a full installation is the way to go.
<xivulon> Of course we will provide ways to migrate a Wubi installation to a dedicated partition.
<xivulon> At the moment projects such as LVPM do not support 8.04, but you can expect the situation to improve rapidly.
<xivulon> How smooth is Wubi 8.04?
<xivulon> I think it is a major leap forward from previous versions and initial feedback is very positive.
<xivulon> There were a few bugs that emerged late in the process (not all of them strictly related to Wubi),
<xivulon> but they are being ironed out and you can expect the 8.04.1 release in July to be even smoother
<xivulon> Contributing to Wubi:
<xivulon> Software system are affected by network externalities (check wikipedia).
<xivulon> In short: the more we are, the better it is for all of us!
<xivulon> As mentioned, the motivation behind Wubi was to help bring Ubuntu/Linux to less experienced users and expand the user base.
<xivulon> But, if people do not know about Wubi/Ubuntu to begin with, that can hardly be achieved.
<xivulon> Spreading the word out is a big help!!!
<xivulon> In this regard, after the point release in July, I would like to start a Wubi banner campaign :)
<xivulon> do join in!
<xivulon> Of course if you know how to code, make yourself at home:
<xivulon> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerDevelopment
<xivulon> https://launchpad.net/wubi
<xivulon> If you want to help translating Wubi, see
<xivulon> https://translations.launchpad.net/wubi
<xivulon> If you want to add Wubi support to your very own distro, absolutely great!!!
<xivulon> (any debian devs around?)
<xivulon> Wubi is GPL
<xivulon> v2
<xivulon> but I am flexible...
<xivulon> In fact there is a customization section in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide that covers the topic.
<xivulon> Also we do ship testing builds, with new and experimental features and/or tentative bug fixes.
<xivulon> Testing them out and reporting back is extremely helpful.
<xivulon> Such builds are usually available in http://wubi-installer.org/devel/minefield
<xivulon> And if you are a user and things do not work well enogh for you, do something about it!
<xivulon> report your bug!
<xivulon> Many more points if you can provide the relevant logs (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide#head-8823bb81b6e0ecd10006d3d226c1f7e8f6f705b1)
<xivulon> and if you can double-check first whether your issues have already been addressed in the past
<xivulon> relevant links are:
<xivulon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide
<xivulon> http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php?f=234
<xivulon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/wubi
<xivulon> Now Q&A
<xivulon> If you are still alive, shoot!
<evand> ok, I'm going to start pasting questions
<evand> just say next when you're ready for the next one
<evand> < Bagnaj97> QUESTION: I've noticed on my (non-wubi) installation that ntfs-3g is quite cpu intensive. Does this  mean installing on fat32 gives a faster system as the driver is in the kernel?
<xivulon> the last performance stats I saw, ranked ntfs-3g better than fat32 in several tests
<xivulon> you still have same chunks of overhead (loop, ext-3...)
<xivulon> I would stick to ntfs though
<xivulon> do not have the link handy on the performance tests unfortunately
<xivulon> next
<evand>  < artir> QUESTION: Why is ubuntu 64 bits installed by Wubi instead of 32(which gives less problems to new users)
<xivulon> I do think that 64bit is advanced enough, and far better than it used to be.
<xivulon> Spreading also helps to make it better even faster, by gathering relevant user feedback
<xivulon> I use amd64 myself for instance
<xivulon> It is still possible to select 32 bit as default
<xivulon> not too obvious but if you care enough about 32/64 bit installation,
<xivulon> you can probably find your way through the FAQ :)
<xivulon> <evand> Flash, Wine, etc all work on 64bit now
<xivulon> next
<evand> < _MMA_> QUESTION: Ubuntu Studio support wasn't included because of the performance overhead of the loopback  mounted filesystem. Are their any plans to have a different install method to reduce the overhead and thus  maybe support for Ubuntu Studio?
<xivulon> that was one of the reasons
<xivulon> of course wubi might not be the best option for heavy video editing
<xivulon> another reason is that wubi requires a Ubiquity based installer
<xivulon> and on CD
<xivulon> for instance Edubuntu was not included because there was no Live CD ISO
<xivulon> you can still get Ubuntu-Studio (and Edubuntu) after installing via Wubi
<xivulon> using synaptic and selecting the appropriate packages
<xivulon> as for the future
<xivulon> we will probably extend support to the alternate ISO (which was the original installation method in 7.04)
<xivulon> filesystem efficiency should improve somewhat
<xivulon> via kernel patches
<xivulon> such as http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/1/9/50
<xivulon> and farther back into the future, native installations might be supported (at least for ntfs)
<xivulon> so that there will be no need for loopfiles and nested filesystems
<xivulon> next
<evand> < SgtMuffins> QUESTION: What are you "few bugs" you mentioned that were being ironed out?
<evand> (you might want to touch on some of the more important ones, like the m-a madness)
<evand> or you can just pass and say next :)
<xivulon> You can check bugs.launchpad.net/wubi for a full list
<xivulon> but the main ones were the following
<xivulon> 1) we discovered late in the process that vista with latest patches will make wubi jameonce the CD is ejected
<xivulon> fixing that would have meant postponing the release. A fix is already available.
<evand> (by late, you mean the day of the release) :)
<xivulon> the same morning in fact :)
<xivulon> 2) we found out late also that when accented chars are used in the OS name, the installer will jam
<xivulon> French users were not too happy... But that too has been fixed
<xivulon> 3) Non really a wubi bugs, but an old issue due to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub/+bug/8497
<xivulon> a proper fix is very difficult and it affects Ubuntu too
<xivulon> but in a recent brainstorm it occurred to us that it can be fixed in the case of Wubi
<xivulon> Those are the main reasons for complaints at the moment
<xivulon> Then of course Wubi is no magic wand
<xivulon> Any issue that affects Ubuntu will also affect Wubi
<xivulon> If you have ACPI problems in Ubuntu, the same will hold for Wubi
<xivulon> If you have video problems in Ubuntu, the same will hold for Wubi
<xivulon> in such  case it is important to report the issues, so that they can be properly addressed
<xivulon> next
<evand> < Waistless> QUESTION: What other debian or non-debian based distributions could be maintained by Wubi, provided  the relevant projects provided support?
<xivulon> As mentioned Wubi requires some upstream changes on the Linux side
<xivulon> What used to be the Lupin project.
<xivulon> In order to be able to install/boot/reboot off a loopfile
<xivulon> Such changes are now in Ubuntu.
<xivulon> So most Ubuntu derivatives should work with very little change
<xivulon> Provided a Live CD ISO is available (Ubiquity)
<xivulon> D-I (alternate installer) will be supported in next release (hopefully)
<xivulon> That should open the way to all Debian derivatives
<xivulon> Provided the patches can be merged upstream
<xivulon> Other distros that do not use preseeding or grub, might require some further changes
<xivulon> See also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide#head-46a259e526b3dbc67c622a327cb8ff2e243ea52b
<xivulon> next
<evand> that's it!
<xivulon> great
<xivulon> Thank you all then!
<jcastro> Thanks so much Agostino!
<evand> Thanks Ago!
<xivulon> You are most welcome
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Documentation Project" - Richard Johnson
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Documentation Project" - Jordan Mantha
<jcastro> Unfortunately Richard Johnson has a power outage, so Jordan Mantha, aka LaserJock will be filling in
<jcastro> In about 5 minutes. :D
<jcastro> ok LaserJock, take it away!
<LaserJock> ok people, time to get excited!
<LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a volunteer developer for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> today I'm going to give you a brief intro to the Ubuntu Documentation Project and then open it up for a Q&A time
<LaserJock> The Doc Team is an all-volunteer army of people with a variety of technical abilities and backgrounds
<LaserJock> with the goal of providing first-class system documentation for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu
<LaserJock> as well as trying to calm the chaos that is the Ubuntu wikies
<LaserJock> we have a core set of team members that have write access to the system documentation that is housed in bzr branches on Launchpad
<LaserJock> the system documentation is written in docbook for people who care :-)
<LaserJock> but we also have a DocuMENTORs program for people who want to get mentored into the team
<LaserJock> and they can join a Documentation Students team
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/+members gives an overview of the teams
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is a general intro to what we work on
<LaserJock> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring talks about the mentoring program
<LaserJock> are there any questions at this point?
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: Why should people care about docbook?
<LaserJock> well, docbook has lots of advantages, and some disadvantages
<LaserJock> docbook is nice because it has a fairly simple, XML, syntax
<LaserJock> if you know any HTML you can pick it up easily
<LaserJock> it's also built specifically for technical documentation
<LaserJock> and it can be built into almost any other format such as HTML, PDF, etc.
<LaserJock> the only real similar alternative I know if in terms of flexibility is TeX and we don't want to go there ;-)
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < jayteeuk> QUESTION: Are the doc team also responsible for this week's session logs?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> the Doc team specially works on the system documentation (what you get installed on your computer) and the wiki on help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> Ubuntu has a wonderful Scribes team which works on irc transcripts and such
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: It seems to me remarkable that your attention slipped the fact that many manpages are of low  or uneven  quality.
<LaserJock> ah, this is an interesting question
<LaserJock> we, in general, work on "filling in the gaps" or writing Ubuntu-specific documentation
<LaserJock> because man pages are done by the software authors and are shipped by individual packages it becomes a much more complicated task
<LaserJock> however, it has not slipped our notice that a great many manpages could be improved
<LaserJock> but in terms of priority, we focus more on new users and people who are not familiar with a terminal, and hence probably won't be reading man pages
<LaserJock> but sure, given enough resources we'd love to look at *all* documentation
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < Syntux> QUESTION: Do you guys have a core documentation that fits under a must have with every release?
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I guess we do
<LaserJock> we always include information on things like printing, networking, setting up things like graphics cards
<LaserJock> we try to look at at the things that a brand new Ubuntu user would need
<LaserJock> but as this is a volunteer effort we sometimes don't get all we want
<LaserJock> but by this point we've built up a pretty good base of the essential documentation
<LaserJock> so what we do is update the documentation we have for the new release
<LaserJock> then look at things we can add or new features we need to document
<LaserJock> we also have things like a Server Guide and a Switching from Windows guide
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: There is any plan to add to the documentation explanations regarding the use of GUI's and not only command  line? (picture will be nice) (humans do not like the Terminal)
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> well we do actually use GUI documentation wherever possible
<LaserJock> however, we don't use a lot of screenshots
<LaserJock> screenshots are very very difficult to keep updated and translated
<LaserJock> Ubuntu documentation is translated into well over 50 languages
<LaserJock> which means screenshots should be correspondingly translated, which is a very difficult task
<LaserJock> so we tend to not use them very much and rather explain in text
<LaserJock> but we do, as a policy, prefer GUI tools over the terminal
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < Syntux> QUESTION: Do you have your own documentation-translation team? any ties with the LoCo team for that purpose? else how  does the docs translation works?
<LaserJock> The documentation is translated via Launchpad (Rosetta) just as the rest of Ubuntu is
<LaserJock> we have good ties with the translation teams and we do encourage LoCo teams to maintain localized versions of the wikis
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: It seems to me that for a brand new Ubuntu user an introductory book is esseential as you have provided  in the past. How about a Hardy edition?
<LaserJock> I believe the Official Ubuntu Book is being updated
<jcastro> It is
<jcastro> there is a 3rd edition on the way
<LaserJock> and because it is released under a free license the Documentation team incorporates it into our documentation
<jcastro> http://www.mypearsonstore.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0137136684
<LaserJock> in terms of having a big "User Guide" PDF we've found that users tend to not use them and they are hard to maintain
<LaserJock> instead we've moved to what's called a Topic Based Help system that you seen when you open the Help viewer
<LaserJock> any more questions? perhaps on the wikis?
<jcastro> *waiting on questions*
<LaserJock> I know it's pretty late on a Friday for most people
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> I will say that the Documentation team is one of the very best places to get involved with contributing to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> unlike packaging and bug triage which you've probably seen quite a bit of
<LaserJock> documentation doesn't take a lot of technical skill
<LaserJock> having pretty good English skills is about it
<LaserJock> next?
<jcastro>  < bullgard4> QUESTION: What can you do to encourage people to write more Ubuntu Wiki articles than in the past?
<LaserJock> well, there's a couple things there
<LaserJock> first, we can promote it more
<LaserJock> talk about it on Planet Ubuntu, talk to our friends, link more from the forums
<LaserJock> second, we already have a huge amount of documentation on the wikis
<LaserJock> a lot of what we really need is people to expand or clean up existing articles
<LaserJock> documentation is very much a collaborative process
<LaserJock> some people are good about starting pages and getting them organized
<LaserJock> some people are good at expanding and making pages more user-friendly
<LaserJock> some people are good at proofreading and check spelling and grammar
<LaserJock> we need all those people
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: The KDE4 documentation it is included at this time into the ubuntu documentation? Or it is expected the  final (stable) release of the Kubuntu KDE4 to do that?
<LaserJock> well, I believe there is KDE4 documentation
<LaserJock> to be honest Richard Johnson, who I'm replacing as he couldn't be here, is the one to ask
<LaserJock> but we at least have the documentation that KDE4 people have written
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> *waiting on questions*
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: On the wiki at this time are a lot of pages that are outdated, and are in desperate need of updates  (upgrades). How the community can help with that?
<LaserJock> what we need for the wiki is really a "critical mass" of people
<LaserJock> we have people who work on the wiki here and there trying to update and clean up
<LaserJock> but once we get enough people together into a common effort we can really get a lot done
<LaserJock> for people who are interested I would highly recommend joining the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<LaserJock> you can find it on http://lists.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> the documentation team does have a wiki team
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
<LaserJock> that's a good place to get started
<LaserJock> if you want to jump in check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup
<LaserJock> which lists pages that need cleaning up
<LaserJock> and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide which helps you know our "standards"
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < bullgard4> QUESTION: Ever thought of an incentive "Best Wiki artcle of the month"?
<LaserJock> that could be a lot of fun
<LaserJock> please send an email about that to the ubuntu-doc list
<LaserJock> I think that could definately be something fun to do
<LaserJock> thanks for the suggestion
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < gscholz> QUESTION: Going back to the translation issue, how is updating managed? Is an old translation lost if the original  English text is updated? When I look at my German help browser on the same page I find English paragraphs mixed up  with  German ones.
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> well, that can happen
<LaserJock> the documentation is frozen before release to allow time for translators to do their work
<LaserJock> but often times translations are not complete
<LaserJock> we don't "throw away" a translation just because it isn't 100% done
<LaserJock> we ship what we have (there is a threshold of around 10% for space considerations)
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: Is there a site that would help a newbie learn to write documentation in Docbook format? I mean a  decent step-by-step, not something that just explains the process.
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I can't think of a really really good one
<LaserJock> one of the best things to do is to just jump in
<LaserJock> you can head over to #ubuntu-doc any time to ask questions
<LaserJock> plus you might want to sign up for the Mentoring program
<LaserJock> there you can get more one-on-one help
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocBook might be some help
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: The wiki pages can be localized (translated) into other languages?
<LaserJock> they certainly can be, but we don't host them on wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> what we prefer is to have LoCos maintain a copy of the wikis on their sight
<LaserJock> in this way we hope to point users to the LoCos
<LaserJock> and to their specific language
<LaserJock> and help.ubuntu.com doesn't get full of 50 versions of each page :-)
<LaserJock> next
<jcastro> *waiting on questions*
<jcastro> someone linked to this though for docbook: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/handbook/gdp-handbook/ar01s04.html
<jcastro> thanks dsas!
<LaserJock> one question we often get is why an Ubuntu Documentation team exists at all
<LaserJock> that we should point people to upstream documentation teams like Gnome or KDE
<LaserJock> what the Ubuntu Doc team does is write documentation that links things together
<LaserJock> or documents places where we've changed things in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> we write documentation for specific task rather than for specific programs
<LaserJock> and now that Hardy has been released
<LaserJock> we've got an effort going to go help out the Gnome Documentation team for a while before we really get into Intrepid's docs
<LaserJock> so we do try to work closely with upstream documentation teams
<LaserJock> any more questions? anything at all?
<LaserJock> I would encourage anybody interested in documentation to join the ubuntu-doc mailng list
<LaserJock> it's a low-key hang out :-)
<LaserJock> and do remember that the documentation team does more than just Ubuntu
<LaserJock> for Hardy the Xubuntu  and Server documentors did some really awesome work
<jcastro> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: In the lifetime of one Ubuntu distribution (version) the translations are updated? Or they remain like  they were in the day of the release?
<LaserJock> we treat documentation much the same way as anything else in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> we have a freeze about a month or so before release
<LaserJock> to allow for tranlsations and also for us to proofread
<LaserJock> after release people will find "bugs"
<LaserJock> typos, maybe an incorrect command
<LaserJock> and we will fix those if they're important
<LaserJock> we also ship updated translations after release (about once a month or so)
<LaserJock> so people are always encouraged to keep translating :-)
<LaserJock> if you find an error in the system documentation please file a bug
<jcastro> time for one more question!
<jcastro> ok, no questions
<LaserJock> alrighty
<jcastro> thanks so much everyone for participating in another day of openweek!
<LaserJock> thank you all for your questions
<jcastro> and thanks LaserJock for filling in!
<LaserJock> no problem
<jcastro> Next sessions start @ 1500UTC tomorrow
<jcastro> So we'll see you all again tomorrow, thanks!
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-03
* ompaul changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | Next up: Unwinding Stacktraces - Emmet Hikory (15:00, UTC)
<jcastro> Ok, let's get started
<jcastro> welcome back everyone to the last day of OpenWeek
<jcastro> thanks for coming out on a Saturday! :)
<jcastro> The last set of sessions are listed here:
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<jcastro> First up we have Emmet Hikory with "Unwinding Stacktraces"
<jcastro> persia: take it away!
<persia> Welcome to Unwinding Stacktraces.
<persia> The intent of this discussion is to describe a stacktrace, explain how to find bugs with stacktraces, and walk through the process of investigation to be able to find (and fix) the bug.
<persia> Feel free to interrupt with specific questions or requests for clarification at any time, and there will be a more general question period at the end.
<persia> As a program executes, it typically involved calling some sequence of functions, each of which will call further functions, and so on.
<persia> The current state of the running program is stored in the stack, and a stack trace is simply a dump of all the information in the stack at the time the trace is taken.
<persia> For the interesting stacktraces, this is usually the point at which the program crashes, but it can be any point.
<persia> s an example, at the point where we print the second 'l' in the following simple program: int main() { printf("Hello World\n"); } the stack consists of three interesting frames (and some initialisation)
<persia> At the top (#0), we have the actual character display, with a local variable holding 'l'.
<persia> The next frame (#1) is printf(), with the local variable "Hello World".
<persia> The third (#2) is main(), with no local variables, reprenting our program.
<persia> A more complex example may be found from http://launchpadlibrarian.net/9409147/Stacktrace.txt, which is a crash in w3m: a text-mode browser.
<persia> As you can see, this stack is a little longer, as w3m is a bit more complicated than the previous example.
<persia> Also, this stacktrace represents a real crash, so instead of knowing we are at 'l', we have to discover our location.
<jcastro> < wolfger> QUESTION: for us noobs, how is a stack trace taken?
<persia> I find it easiest to read these from the bottom, as this goes from the general environment (starting the program), and becomes more specific.
<persia> wolfger: The common way to take a stacktrace is within GDB, although in Ubuntu the apport tool helps generate them for bug reports.
<persia> I'll talk a little about apport later, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace provides a quick guide to doing it manually.
<jcastro> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: Is a stacktrace the same as the backtrace that the KDE crash handler gives?
<persia> BonesolTeraDyne: I'm not actually familiar with the KDE crash handler, but I expect that if it's not the same, it's very close.
<persia> So, looking at the w3m example, from the bottom, we can find out what is happening.  I've not looked closely at the w3m code, but the following would be my guess:
<persia> At frame 15, the program is trying to start
<persia> At frame 14 glibc is processing the start request
<persia> At frame 13, the main() function starts, and we're in the code
<persia> At frame 12, it calls a function to load a file, so I'm guessing this is opening a local file on the machine
<persia> At frame 11 is calls "loadSomething", which is probably a generic helper function for the file load
<persia> At frame 10, it appears to have discovered this was an HTML file, and so is loading HTML
<persia> At frame 9, it is processing the HTML data as a data stream
<persia> At frame 8 it is processing a single line of the data
<persia> At frame 7, it seems to be processing a table
<persia> (At this point, we can say "Aha!", as while it's obvious a browser would be reading HTML, it being a table tells us more specifically where the problem is happening)
<persia> Frames 6, 5, 4, and 3 appear to be more table calls.  Maybe it's nested tables, or maybe the code is just highly recursive.  Determining which usually means reading the code or the data.
<persia> Frame 2 appears to be rendering an image within the table
<persia> Frame 1 appears to be handling the description of the image
<persia> And frame 0 crashes with the call to Strnew_size with the passed argument of (n=256).
<persia> From this, we can safely say that w3m has crashed while processing an image nested in a table, which is a lot more information then we had before.
<jcastro> < wolfger> QUESTION: how did we determine that about Frame #1? That step lost me
<persia> wolfger: I guessed it based on the local variables.  I could be completely mistaken: to check for sure, one should check the code of w3m around line 2917 of file.c.
<persia> The part that makes me think it is related to handing the various attributes of the image is all the local variables (anchor, img, bold, etc.).
<persia> if one is using a stacktrace to debug something, one will likely pass back and forth over two or three frames, most commonly #0 - #2, but sometimes as high as #50 (if the program is compiled against a library with extensive internal signal handling, such as GTK+2)
<persia> From the point of view of getting an idea of what is happening, the specifics right near the problem aren't as important, as one will want to look at the code: it's mostly a matter of seeing how far one can get towards #0 before getting lost to save time in reviewing it.
<persia> So, in Ubuntu, the majority of stacktraces available for analysis are provided in launchpad by Apport.  The apport tool captures the results of every program crash on every user's workstation, and offers the opportunity for the user to report the crash back to Ubuntu.
<persia> This is paired with the apport retracing service which processes these crash reports, and generates the nice stacktraces with the symbol names, and the line numbers of the corresponding code.
<persia> At some point in the apport process, the apport-crash tag is typically added to the bug, so that looking through all the bugs with the apport-crash tag is often a good way to find stacktraces.
<persia> This list is most easily accessible from the Tags list on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs
<persia> When reviewing this myself, I tend to skip down until I find a package a use a fair bit, as it's a lot easier to understand a problem with a program that one uses than with a program one has to learn at the same time one is debugging.
<persia> The reports will have several different attachments that may be useful in understanding the problem, but the "Stacktrace.txt (retraced)" is typically the right one to review.
<persia> In cases where there are multiple threads and may be timing issues or interthread communication issues, the "ThreadStacktrace.txt (retraced)" may also be useful, but most of the time even when one reviews this, the problem is actually in Stacktrace.txt.
<persia> That about covers the definition, reading, and availability of stacktraces.  Are there any questions about these before we look at a debugging example?
<persia> Great then!
<persia> So, I've picked one I did before to look at, specifically that the hydrogen frun machine crashed when a certain (broken) drumkit was used.  This was bug #147476, and the Stacktrace is available from http://launchpadlibrarian.net/9612459/Stacktrace.txt
<jcastro> < bran_damage> QUESTION: Are the stacktraces similar no matter what language the code was written in ?
<persia> bran_damage: Typically, although they may look a little different.
<persia> In an interpreted language like python, the symbols are typically available at runtime, and so the trace can be presented to the user directly.  In a compiled language like C, the symbols are typically opimised out, so the stacktrace has to be retraced to make sense.
<persia> An unretraced stacktrace looks like http://launchpadlibrarian.net/9032770/Stacktrace.txt
<persia> While the codes are meaningful with the debug symbols, without them, the function names are unknown, and the locals are hidden.
<persia> Going back to hydrogen, and the process of looking at a stacktrace for debugging.
<persia> I usually start around frame #3 or #4, unless it's a lot of signal handlers, in which case, I'll keep going back until I get to some function that looks like it was written for the program that crashed.
<persia> For this stacktrace, the mouse movement handling around frames 7&8 provide a nice boundary: anything earlier than this is the user doing something else, not likely related to the crash.
<persia> Also, a stacktrace doesn't actually keep a history of what was done, but only the nesting of function calls, so there's not enough information about what else the user did with the mouse before clicking on the button at 0x107bd40 at frame 7.
<persia> Frames 5 & 6 look like the callbacks to handle the mouse click, and frames 3&4 look like some QT function to call the actual handler for the button click (and here, I'm just guessing based on the name: if you're unsure, it's always safe to check the code)
<persia> This takes us to Frame #2 which is pretty clearly the loader that handles the loadDrumkitBtn click.
<persia> When debugging, you'll want to get an idea of the context for the local variables.  In this case, we're looking around line 168 of DrumkitManager.cpp (available from  http://paste.ubuntu.com/9766/ for those without source handy)
<persia> Now since frame #1 is in the Hydrogen::loadDrumkit function, it's actually line 167 of the pastebin.
<persia> Looking at what happens previously in this function, we can see that some name gets set (line 160)
<persia> It does a loop over the list of drumkits
<persia> Compares the selected name to each of the names
<persia> When it matches, it sets a cursor to tell the user to wait, and calls loadDrumkit, passing the information about he drumkit from the drumkit list.
<persia> Going back to the stacktrace, the intersting parts are drumkitInfo and sselectedDrumkitName, which are the defined local variables.  Since this matches what we see in the code, and nothing is obviously wrong, we go to the next frame.
<persia> (code for this is available from http://paste.ubuntu.com/9756/ )
<persia> Here, we're looking at the function starting at line 2469
<persia> Going down, it crashes at an assignment, which ttrial and error showed to be line 2494.
<persia> Now, any questions about comparing the code and the stacktrace to debug a problem?
<jcastro> no questions so far
<persia> Well then, a few random notes, before we're out of time (but please interrupt if you have a question).
<persia> I find it typically takes an hour or two to go through a stacktrace carefully, and figure out the problem in the code.  The first few can take longer.
<persia> Also, sometimes the code is in a language that you might not know well.  Don't worry about this: it's better to get a rough idea of what is happening.  Even if you can't figure out how to fix it, being able to pinpoint the problem (it crashes at this point, and I think it's because this variable didn't get set the way we wanted), can help someone who does know that language to fix it,
<persia> Most of all, be confident, and make a lot of guesses.  As the stacktrace shows each line of code, and each function called, it's hard to get lost, even if you guess wrong, but there's usually more detail than you need.
<persia> Anyway, thanks for attending.  Enjoy the other sessions today, and I'll hope to see you in #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu-motu looking at stacktraces and fixes for crashes.
<jcastro> thanks persia!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Virtualization" Soren Hansen
<jcastro> Next up will be a hot topic lately, Virtualization with Soren Hansen!
<jcastro> In about 1 minute. :D
<jcastro> soren: take it away!
<jcastro> hmm, let's give him a few minutes
<jcastro> Ok, we're texting soren, thanks for being patient!
<jcastro> Ok, soren is on his way!
<soren> o/
<soren> Sorry, guys!
<soren> I was sure it wasn't for another two hours.
<jcastro> No worries!
<soren> Ok... Hi, everyone.
<soren> I'm Soren Hansen, and I work for Canonical as virtualisation specialist.
<soren> Er..
<soren> This caught me a bit off guard :)
<soren> Are there any questions already or should I just talk about stuff?
<soren> I guess not.
<soren> Well, I can tell you what Ubuntu is focusing on and has focused on for Hardy.
<soren> I think we're the first major distro to put out a major release with a virtualisation solution based on kvm.
<soren> KVM is a modular hypervisor that runs in the linux kernel.
<soren> It's in the official kernel tree, and is very well-maintained.
<jcastro> Real quick soren, can you explain virtualization, hypervisor, and KVM?
<soren> KVM relies on the presence of the virtualisation extensions that are found in recent processors from both AMD and Intel.
<soren> jcastro: Ah.. Right :)
<soren> Virtualisation is not as well-defined as one would have hoped.
<soren> The easiest way to think of it is "some method for running many operating systems on just one machine at the same time".
<soren> That's a rather broad definition, though.
<soren> You can divide virtualisation into various categories..
<soren> There's containers, such as openvz and linux vserver.
<soren> They basically allow you to have process running in a completely separate namespaces, thus separating the completely from one another.
<soren> Then you have paravirtualisation.
<soren> This is stuff like Xen.
<soren> The idea is that instead of exposing what looks like a regular PC as we all know it, it exposes a different interface, on top of which you can run e.g. a specialised linux kernel.
<soren> The there's full virtualisation.
<soren> This is stuff like KVM and QEmu.
<soren> The idea here is that run unmodified operating systems inside  of it.
<soren> To accomplish this, the virtualisation technology must make it looks exactly as though it's a regular PC.
<soren> ...just like the one you've got under your desk.
<soren> There are variour variations of these things, but that's basically the gist of it.
<soren> A hypervisor is the bit of magic that makes this all possible.
<soren> It's the "thing" that takes care of assigning resources to guest operating systems and such.
<soren> I say "thing" because it's can be implemented in different ways. Xen works by booting a completely different system from the start and then you run Linux on top of it. (sort of)
<soren> KVM works by loading a module in your regular system, which makes userspace processes able to use the virtualisation extensions in the CPU.
<soren> So in this case, the hypervisor is the kernel module and the kvm userspace process.
<soren> < highvoltage> QUESTION: Does that mean that KVM won't run on any of the older CPUs, like Qemu did?
<soren> Short version: Yes.
<soren> One thing to remember is that the percentage of machines that can't use kvm is constantly dropping.
<soren> ..and due to this hardware requirement, KVM's design is very simple compared to most alternatives.
<soren> < Toadinator> QUESTION: could you explain the benefits of virtualization to someone who doesn't run a virtual machine?
<soren> Sure.
<soren> Hardware is cheap these days.
<soren> Most of the time, you fill up your data centers with the monstrous machines.
<soren> If you run some form of virtualisation on top of that, you can have many separate operating systems running.
<soren> If, some day, these virtual machines start to max out the server, all you need to do is migrate the virtual machine off to another physical machine.
<soren> The virtual machine still sees the same hardware, so there's no reconfiguration to be done in the guest.
<soren> The process of moving it is a simple matter of either copying a few disk images (regular files) ove rto another machine, or if you have some form of shared storage, you can just move the virtual ram over to another box and it can keep running there.
<soren> I've heard people suggest it used as a power saving mechanism.
<soren> Your servers are much busier during the day than they are at night, so at day, your virtual machines can be running on 200 servers, but at night you move them onto perhaps 25, and shut the other 175 down and save loads of power.
<soren> ..and the rain forest.
<soren> :)
<soren> The possibilities are endless.
<soren> On your desktop, you can use virtualisation to run other operating system for testing or for that last application under Windows you just can't live without.
<soren> < chell> QUESTION: what exactly does he mean by running a process in a different namespace? what kind of namespaces are we talking about here?
<soren> Containers are sort of an extended version of a chroot jail.
<soren> If you're in a chroot jail, device nodes, memory usage, processes are still the same as it is outside the chroot.
<soren> Inside a container, you can't see processes from other containers, you can't access their device nodes, etc., etc.
<soren>  < chell> Question: so KVM is a program like vmware or virtual box?
<soren> Yes, kvm is very much like those. The differences are that it's completely free and maintained in the mainline linux kernel.
<soren> < smeg0l> QUESTION i find qemy very heavy what other alternatives do i have that wil run on hardy heron ?
<soren> QEmu is very heavy indeed.
<soren> Emulating a CPU is a very heavy process.
<soren> KVM uses parts of QEmu, but not the cpu emulation parts.
<soren> We also have virtualbox and Xen in universe and vmware server runs, too, so there are plenty of options.
<soren> We've just chosed to focus mostly on Xen.
<soren> Er..
<soren> Damn, I did not just say that.
<soren> I meant, of course, that we've chosed to focus mostly on kvm.
<soren> QUESTION: does virtualization let the guest OS see your BIOS? I ask because I have a vista Express upgrade DVD which will only install in a virtual machine on THIS machine (the  one it was distributed for)[D
<soren> No, that's the entire point of virtualisation. The virtual machines don't see your hardware.
<soren>  < smeg0l> QUESTION what vitual maniger would cause the least trouble ?
<soren> I don't understand the questin.
<soren>  < Salumu> QUESTION: How does hypervisors manage to run system calls from the applications in the virtual guest OS?
<soren> This is where Xen and kvm differ very much.
<soren> Well, one of the places, anyway.
<soren> System calls in Xen are translated to hypercalls to the hypervisor.
<soren> In Kvm guests, you're running a regular linux kernel. It turns into CPU instructions which the hypervisor execetes on the host CPU (expect for privileged instructions, which are trapped and handled differently).
<soren> < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: What other requirements have to be mentioned beside the processor?
<soren> Nothing, really.
<soren> If your processor has the magic stuff and your bios doesn't block them, then you're set.
<soren> Flyser> QUESTION: Can we expect a stable KVM release some day?  (if yes, when? ^^)
<soren> I'm not sure what you mean by a stable KVM release.
<soren> The KVM in Hardy is rather stable. It's been working for a quite a few people with different use cases.
<soren>  highvoltage> QUESTION: How stable is KVM compared to VMWare and Xen, and how does it compare performance wise?
<soren> KVM as achieved massive results in a very short time. It's already very stable for a lot of different work loads and I'd say it's a strong competitor to Xen.
<soren> I can't speak much of VMWare. I've not used it in any serious settings (only for small case testing on my desktop).
<soren> < smeg0l> QUESTION what vitual manager would cause the least trouble ?
<soren> I don't understand the question.
<soren> tzeentch_> QUESTION: Why the focus on KVM? What advantages does it have over VirtualBoxOSS or Xen? Do you think Xen couldn't be wrapped up to provide easy to use virtualization solution?
<soren> KVM as much, much simpler than Xen.
<soren> It's actually something that we can reasonable maintain and support.
<soren> Xen has famously been rejected by the linux kernel developers on several occasions.
<soren> One of the primary reasons we didn't choose virtualbox is the lack of headless support in the free version.
<soren> The non-free version offers an RDP server, so it's actually usable in server settings (which was our focus).
<soren> Also, virtualbox is not in mainstream Linux. That really, *Really* means a lot.
<soren> QUESTION: Do you know of any large uses of virtualisation, running on Ubuntu?
<soren> Well, Hardy is the first release where it's a major feature, and Hardy's still quite young.
<soren> Nevertheless, I do know of a rather large installation, but I'm not sure if I'm at liberty to tell you about it :/
<soren> < bran_damage> QUESTION:  Soren .. so I have hardy,  I have AMD64 with VM extensions ... now what ?  What do I do to get KVM running
<soren> The easy way:
<soren> sudo apt-get install kvm virt-manager libvirt-bin
<soren> sudo adduser $USER libvirtd
<soren> (log out, and log back in)
<soren> virt-manager -c qemu:///system
<soren> That'll give you a nice, graphical interface for managing your virtual machines.
<soren> highvoltage> QUESTION: how scriptable is KVM? can I suspend it on host shutdown and start it again when the host starts?
<soren> Yes, you can do that rather easily.
<soren> It's recommended to use libvirt to manage your virtual machines, and if you do so, it's a simple matter of "virsh save name-of-domain saved.img" and then "virsh load saved.img", when you're back up.
<soren> < smeg0l> QUESTION which virtual manager is the most userfriendly ?
<soren> What do you mean by virtual manager?
<soren> Do you mean hypervisor?
<soren> If so, it's a matter of taste, I think.
<jcastro> tip: screenshots of virtual manager: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=983&num=1
<soren> VMWare server is still a bit ahead of virt-manager in many respects.
<soren> VirtualBox, too.
<soren> ...but the libvirt/virt-manager combination is really starting to shine, and it offers excellent scriptability, which is a major userfriendliness factor for me.
<soren> Oh, I forgot part of this question:
<soren> < ~tzeentch_> QUESTION: Why the focus on KVM? What advantages does it have over VirtualBoxOSS or Xen? Do you think Xen couldn't be wrapped up to provide easy to use virtualization solution?
<soren> Anything's possible, but I'm very happy indeed that I don't need to support and maintain a Xen kernel for 5 years.
<jcastro> We're starting to run out of time, can you tell everyone about ubuntu-vm-builder after this question?
<soren> livirt can manage Xen instances, too, so the userfriendliness can be about the same (from the user's POV).
<soren> jcastro: Oh, sure.
<soren> ubuntu-vm-builder started out as a bit of a pet project for me. In short, it's a script that creates an Ubuntu based virtual machine.
<soren> It doesn't go through the regular installer, it doesn't even use any virtualisation technology.
<soren> ..so it's really fast.
<soren> I've built ubuntu virtual machines in less than 45 seconds.
<jcastro> More info here: https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/ubuntu-vm-builder.html
<soren> If you have further questions, #ubuntu-virt is the channel for virtualisation in Ubuntu. Feel free to stop by any time.
<jcastro> thanks Soren!
<soren> Thanks for stopping by, everyone!
<soren> And sorry again for being late :(
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Reporting Bugs" - Brian Murray
<jcastro> ok, next up is Reporting Bugs with Brian Murray
<jcastro> this session was done on Monday but we scheduled one today to get maximum participation!
<bdmurray> Hi, I'm Brian Murray and I'm Ubuntu's bug master.
<bdmurray> I'm here to talk today about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are various ways you can do it.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more complete and therefore more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> Perhaps you are wondering what exactly is a bug?
<bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
<bdmurray> Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be spelling errors.
<bdmurray>  By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
<bdmurray> Reported bugs are kept in Launchpad, the bug tracking system used by Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> Let's look at a sample bug report - http://launchpad.net/bugs/222278.
<bdmurray> There are 4 things there that I want to point out.
<bdmurray> 1) The bug's title or summary is 'upgrade hanges in checkViewDepends()'
<bdmurray> 2) In the affects table, below the title, you'll see that this bug report affects 'update-manager (Ubuntu)'
<bdmurray> This is the package / application which the bug is about
<bdmurray> 3) Below that is the bug's description, labelled "Bug description" ;), which is filled out when you are reporting a bug
<bdmurray> 4) You'll also notice that there are 5 comments, 4 of which contain attachments with supporting information about the bug.
<bdmurray> So, that's what a bug report looks like.  Are there any questions about the format of a bug report or what a bug is?
<bdmurray> < wolfger> QUESTION: if something is behaving as designed, but we don't  like it, is it bug report material?
<bdmurray> Yes, that is a valid bug however it is ultimately up to the developers of that particular piece of software whether or not they will fix it.
<bdmurray> < smeg0l> QUESTION when do determine if it's a hardware faily or a bug ?
<bdmurray> Determining whether or not a bug report is due to faulty hardware can be quite tricky.
<bdmurray> Most of those bug reports would be about the kernel and by looking at kernel log files we can help you determine whether or not it is a hardware or software issue.
<bdmurray> Moving on - How can bugs be reported to Launchpad?
<bdmurray> They can be reported via the web interface at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug where you start by filling out the summary which becomes the bug's tile.
<bdmurray> After which you are asked for the package affected and for 'Futher information' which becomes the bug's description.
<bdmurray> The description should contain at a minimum the following:
<bdmurray> 1) The release of Ubuntu that you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> This is important as there is more than 1 supported release of Ubuntu out there right now.
<bdmurray> 2) The version of the package you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> 3) The behaviou that you expected to happen
<bdmurray> and 4) What happened instead
<bdmurray> You also have the opportunity to add an attachment to your bug when you are reporting it via the web interface.
<bdmurray> Another way to report a bug is using apport an automated problem report application included with Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> The advantage to using apport is that it automatically collects information about the release of Ubuntu you are using and the version of the package / application that you are reporting the bug about.
<bdmurray> Let's say that you have encountered a bug with Firefox.
<bdmurray> You can use apport to report the bug by going to Firefox's "Help" menu and choosing "Report a Problem".
<bdmurray> Apport will start collecing information about your bug and then open a new window where you enter the bug's summary / title and then enter the bug's description.
<bdmurray> Let's look at a bug reported using the "Report a Problem" menu item
<bdmurray> http://launchpad.net/bugs/223455
<bdmurray> At the bottom of the description you'll see information regarding the DistroRelease, the package and version, and kernel version among other things.
<bdmurray> All of this information is gathered for you automatically.
<bdmurray> The "Report a Problem" functionality has been integrated into lots of applications and is the preferred way to report a bug.
<bdmurray> Additionally, apport has a command line interface, called apport-cli, where you can report a bug about a specific package via 'apport-cli -f -p PACKAGE' which is useful for non GUI applications.
<bdmurray> Additionally, you can also specify a process id number via 'apport-cli -f -P PID'.
<bdmurray> Further information about reporting bugs can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<bdmurray> Are there any questions about how you can report a bug?
<bdmurray> < lyzium> Question: can apport initialise outside given example. If  firefox crashes on start you are unable to launch the "report a  problem" option
<bdmurray> In that case you could use apport-cli -f -p firefox-3.0 for example
<bdmurray> Also when you are running a development release of Ubuntu apport will watch for application crashes and report those
<bdmurray> < Lardarse> QUESTION: Do you find that the differences between the  developer's definition of a bug (to quote you: "an error or a  flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't  designed") and the end-users definition (to word it in the  same way, it's usually something along the lines of "an error  or a flaw that makes it behave in ways that don't make
<bdmurray>  sense") cases problems for you and for lthe other people inv
<bdmurray> Ubuntu is designed for "human beings" and if an application behaves in a way that doesn't make sense then their is something wrong.
<bdmurray> Possibly there is a bug in the documentation or the software's description.
<bdmurray> That bug report won't have as a high of priority as a crash report or other bugs but it still is a valid bug.
<bdmurray> So how can we make our bug reports more useful for developers?
<bdmurray> Choosing the name of the package or application the bug is about is critical.
<bdmurray> If a bug does not have a package assigned to it is much less likely to get looked at by anyone let alone the developer of that application.
<bdmurray> Some helpful hints for finding the proper package are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<bdmurray> This page also contains the names of packages that might be hard to discover.
<bdmurray> For example, bugs about the kernel in Hardy Heron should be reported about the 'linux' package.
<bdmurray> Additionally, members of the Ubuntu bug squad are available in the #ubuntu-bugs cahnnel if you need help identifying the proper package.
<bdmurray> After the bug is reported in Launchpad an important part of its life cycle is it entering the Confirmed status.
<bdmurray> Pedro will talk about this more in the next class, but when a bug is Confirmed it means that someone has been able to recreate the bug or believes sufficient information has been included in the bug report for a developer to start working on it.
<bdmurray> Any Launchpad user can confirm a bug report, but please don't confirm your own!
<bdmurray> This will make the Confirmed status less useful.
<bdmurray> What this means is that you should include extremely detailed steps to recreate the bug in it's description so anyone, not just a developer, could confirm it.
<bdmurray> Let's take OpenOffice for example, there are phenomenal amount of things you can do in the Word Processor or the Spreadsheet parts of it.
<bdmurray> And not every bug triager may now all the intricacies of that application.
<bdmurray> So by putting extremely detailed steps in your bug report you are increasing the chances of it being confirmed.
<bdmurray> It is far better to have too much detail than not enough!
<bdmurray> Some fairly simple things you can do to make your report easier for someone to confirm are including a screenshot.
<bdmurray> Or you can create a screencast, a movie of your desktop, using an application like istanbul.
<bdmurray> Let's take a look at http://launchpad.net/bugs/212425
<bdmurray> This bug has a screencast attached to it
<bdmurray> Their description of how to reproduce the bug is pretty good but is a little hard to understand
<bdmurray> By watching the screencast though, bug triagers are able to clearly see what steps we should take to recreate the bug.
<bdmurray> Are there any more questions at this point in time?
<bdmurray> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: Are there any plans to make a KDE version of  Apport, or to at least give the KDE crash handler some  sort of LP integration?
<bdmurray> There are some crash reports about KDE applications reported by apport.
<bdmurray> In regards to integration with the KDE crash handler, I'm not certain but will look into it.
<bdmurray> One of the best ways to make your bug report more likely to be fixed is to follow the debugging procedures for the package or subsystem your bug is about.
<bdmurray> Bug triagers and software developers have written up a variety of these debugging procedures.
<bdmurray> A list of them can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<bdmurray> If you look at the debugging update-manager page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUpdateManager
<bdmurray> You'll see there is a how to file section, there we have instructions about which log files we need if your bug is about upgrading from one release to another
<bdmurray> Providing information like that makes your bug report much more complete
<bdmurray> And a bug report with more relevant information is more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> QUESTION: If you wanted to report a bug, but are unsure  what the bug is for (ex: it could belong to one of many  programs) how would you know what package to file it under?
<bdmurray> Toadinator: early I mentioned the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<bdmurray> This contains some high level information about when an application is running
<bdmurray> For example when your system boots and you see the "Ubuntu" logo that is the usplash package
<bdmurray> Also printing bugs should generally be reported about cupsys and then they will be moved to the proper package if necessary
<bdmurray> Additionally, there is information about how to find out what application an open window belongs to
<bdmurray> < gscholz> QUESTION: Coming back to apport, how do you include the  functionality into an applications menu (report a problem)? Do  you write a patch against the source code? I guess these are  no upstream features, or is this a kind of generic GNOME  functionality? How do you select the applications worth this  feature?
<bdmurray> The functionality of apport is integrated into an application via the package 'liblaunchpad-integration1'
<bdmurray> And I'm fairly certain this is a patch that Ubuntu carries for the package with that integration
<bdmurray> Any more questions?
<bdmurray> Okay, then thanks for coming to the class on How to Report bugs
<bdmurray> If you need any help reporting a bug please come to the #ubuntu-bugs channel on freenode
<bdmurray> Thanks!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Ubuntu Bugsquad and Triaging Bugs" - Pedro Villavicencio
<jcastro> ok guys, next up is pedro_ and Iulian - talking about the Ubuntu bugsquad!
<jcastro> take it away guys!
<pedro_> thanks jcastro!
<Iulian> Thank you, jcastro.
<pedro_> Hello folks my name is Pedro Villavicencio and I'm the guy behind the Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, i'm here to day with the great bugsquader Iulian to talk about our Bugsquad and how to Triage Bugs
<pedro_> the awesome Brian Murray already talked to you on how to report good quality bugs
<pedro_> so we're going to talk to you about the rest of the process
<pedro_> Bugsquad first:
<pedro_> The Ubuntu BugSquad is the first point of contact for the bugs filed about Ubuntu
<pedro_> we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by developers
<pedro_> we do this with a process called "Triage" will talk to you about it in a minutes
<pedro_> Working with the Bug Squad it's an excellent way to start helping out and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
<pedro_> You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team in fact it is a great way to return something to our lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
<pedro_> we have a few points of contact
<pedro_> a team on LP https://edge.launchpad.net/~bugsquad it's an open team, so everybody can join us
<pedro_> so if you're interested on bugs feel free to join now ;-)
<pedro_> we also have a mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
<pedro_> and a couple of IRC channels
<pedro_> where the bugs are discussed: #ubuntu-bugs
<pedro_> and another one where the bugs are announced: #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<pedro_> also, if you have questions over a specific project you can look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts to see to who you can ask about it later
<pedro_> Ok so, Bug triage is an essential part of Ubuntu's development and consists in a list of things:
<pedro_> - Responding to new bugs as they are filed
<pedro_> - Ensuring that new bugs have all the necessary information
<pedro_> - Assigning bugs to the proper package
<pedro_> Brian already talked to you about this things so we hope you'll be filing good quality reports ;-)
<pedro_> most of the bugs we have to deal with are not assigned to the right package
<pedro_> and moreover not assigned to anything
<pedro_> if you look to this list  http://tinyurl.com/32l4gd
<pedro_> there's ~3500 reports without a package assigned to it
<pedro_> lets keep going with the list of parts
<pedro_> - Confirming bug reports by trying to reproduce them
<pedro_> - Setting the priority of bugs reports
<pedro_> - Searching for and marking duplicates in the bug tracking system
<pedro_> - Sending bugs to their upstream authors, when applicable
<pedro_> for this one you might want to look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream for instructions on how to do it
<pedro_> - Cross-referencing bugs from other distributions.
<pedro_> - Expiring old bugs.
<pedro_> All of these activities help the bug get fixed and subsequently making Ubuntu even better
<pedro_> As soon as you have done enough good triage work, you can apply to the ubuntu-bugcontrol team which is the one with more rights over the reports
<pedro_> so basically you can see the Private reports, change the Importance of the bugs and set a couple of bug status (Triaged, Won't Fix) we will talk about both in a min
<pedro_> the requirements for join the team are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<pedro_> and the lp url is : https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
<pedro_> Bug status:
<pedro_> We currently have 9 status, they are: New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
<pedro_> New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed the report
<pedro_> The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information, for example, the steps for trigger that behavior
<pedro_> A Confirmed is almost self explanatory, someone else than the reporter is having the same bug
<pedro_> I guess that Brian told you this, but in case of: Please do not confirm your own reports
<pedro_> The Triaged state is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team
<pedro_> when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fixing the issue
<pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug
<pedro_> that report needs to be marked as "In Progress"
<pedro_> please use "In Progress" just for that, I've encounter some bugs marked as In Progress because the reporter is collecting more info because a triager asked they to do so
<pedro_> that's wrong, so please don't do it
<pedro_> If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch or to another repository
<pedro_> the reports now needs to be marked as "Fix Committed"
<pedro_> and when the fix is released, released meaning available on a Official Ubuntu repository
<pedro_> the status of that report needs to be changed to "Fix Released"
<pedro_> if you have any doubt or want to know more about status, you can read about them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
<pedro_> does anybody has a question regarding bug status?
<Iulian> It seems that you missed the 'Invalid' status.
<pedro_> ok so the bad guy the "Invalid" status
<pedro_> go ahead Iulian
<Iulian> This status should be used when the bug report does not contain adequate information to determine whether or not it is a bug even if it is resolved for the reporter.
<Iulian> Be careful when you set this status, when a bug has the invalid status it will no longer show up in default searches.
<Iulian> We have one question.
<pedro_> ok
<Iulian> <sourcercito> QUESTION: how long does it takes to be able to join the ubuntu-bugcontrol team?
<pedro_> sourcercito: it depends on how much work you been doing, the whole process can take a few weeks
<pedro_> for the whole process i mean, for a new triager to start doing a good triage work
<pedro_> apply for the team and then get the membership
<pedro_> ok so Bug Importance
<pedro_> as i said one of the nice privileges you're going to have if you join to the bugcontrol team is set importances
<pedro_> we currently have 6 importances
<pedro_> Undecided
<pedro_> Wishlist
<pedro_> Low
<pedro_> Medium
<pedro_> High and Critical
<pedro_> during your first steps into the Ubuntu Bugsquad you're probaby not going to use them
<pedro_> but you can always ask on #ubuntu-bugs for someone to set an importance for you
<pedro_> the Undecided one is the default for new bugs
<pedro_> and it means that there's no sufficient information to determine the importance
<pedro_> A Wishlist is a request to add a new feature to the programs available on Ubuntu
<pedro_> rodolfo> QUESTION: Sometimes it's hard to describe a bug in English, specially when it's about the system behavior. In these cases, there would be better to upload a video, demonstrating the bug and how it happens. Is there any idea to make this possible?
<pedro_> rodolfo: yes, you can do it, the more information you can provide us the better
<pedro_> there's a program called istanbul that allow you to record things happening on your desktop
<pedro_> and if you don't know how to explain what's happening , a video it's always a good thing
<pedro_> ok when a wishlist request it's too complex
<pedro_> it should rather be written as a feature specification
<pedro_> you can read about how to write them here  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureSpecifications
<pedro_> and also if you have some ideas that you'd like to see included on Ubuntu
<pedro_> you can use the Ubuntu Brainstorm website
<pedro_> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<pedro_> where you can vote for ideas and the ubuntu developers will probably going to discuss the better ones at the Ubuntu Developer Summit
<pedro_> so *now* is the right time to do it
<Iulian> We currently have ~8000 ideas reported on the brainstorm website.
<pedro_> yep so feel free to add yours or vote for one that you'd like to have on our next version
<Iulian> Every day we get 5-10 ideas.
<Iulian> Even more sometimes.
<Iulian> Ok, so let's get back to the Importance of a bug.
<Iulian> The Low importance are the bugs which affect functionality.
<Iulian> They can be easily worked around, are the bugs that affect unusual configurations or uncommon hardware.
<Iulian> It is a bug that has a moderate inpact on a non-core application.
<Iulian> Medium importance:
<Iulian> Most bugs are of medium importance. For example: it has a moderate impact on a core application.
<Iulian> It's a bug that has a severe impact on a non-core application. You can set this importance if you have a problem with a non-essential hardware component (network card, webcam, sound card, printer, etc)
<Iulian> High importance: This is a bug that has a severe impact on a small portion of Ubuntu users. It makes a default Ubuntu installation generally unusable.
<Iulian> e.g: system fails to boot or X fails to start on a certain make and model of computer.
<pedro_> <Monika|K> QUESTION: Can all of the status only be set by the Bug Team or can some status be set by other people, too, and only some are reserved to the Bug Team?
<Iulian> All statuses can be set by everyone, except Triage and Won't Fix.
<Iulian> You have to be a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control to set those two statuses.
<Iulian> Ok, so, the High importance should be set only if it has a moderate impact on a large portion of Ubuntu users.
<Iulian> The Critical importance is pretty much self-explanatory.
<Iulian> Only set this importance if a bug has a SEVERE impact on a large portion of Ubuntu users.
<pedro_> yes, ok if you want to work with the bugsquad we organize the Bug Days
<pedro_> also known as Hug Days (triage a bug and get a hug)
<pedro_> well the idea of a hug day is to work together with the bugsquad and project maintainers on a specific task, weekly we organize two hug days, Tuesdays and Thursdays
<Iulian> <nosrednaekim> QUESTION: what about the bug status "wishlist"?
<pedro_> first one are more general hug days, focused for example of the bugs without a package and the Thursday ones are focused on desktop related task like compiz, firefox and GNOME applications
<pedro_> If you want to join us at Hug Days just come to #ubuntu-bugs the days I've mentioned and join the fun
<Iulian> nosrednaekim: There is no such status, that is an importance. You set that importance if it's a feature request. Pedro just talked several minutes ago about it.
<pedro_> yes ;-)
<pedro_> ok so we're running out of time
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "LoCo Teams" - Nick Ali
<pedro_> everyday is perfect day for triaging so don't wait till hug day!
<jcastro> yep, you're out of time, thanks guys!
<Iulian> Yup, thanks everyone!
<pedro_> thanks you all ;-)
<jcastro> ok boredandblogging, take it away!
<boredandblogging> Hi folks, welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week LoCo Teams session
<boredandblogging> I'm Nick Ali, part of the Ubuntu Georgia US team.
<boredandblogging> So lets get started.
<boredandblogging> First, what is a LoCo?
<boredandblogging> LoCo stands for Local Community.
<boredandblogging> LoCos are run by the community, not Canonical. However Canonical does support LoCo in various ways that we will cover later.
<boredandblogging> Its purpose is to help advocate, develop, and support Ubuntu in your local region.
<boredandblogging> Advocacy is the most important job of a LoCo. LoCos should promote Ubuntu to schools, organizations, companies, and media outlets.
<boredandblogging> Usually, there is one LoCo per country. But depending on size and population, there may be several per region. For example, the United States has one LoCo per state.
<boredandblogging> The list of LoCos is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList.
<boredandblogging> If you find a LoCo in your area, join its mailing list and Launchpad team. Introduce yourself on the mailing list and IRC channel.
<boredandblogging> All teams welcome new members. You can help out with advocacy, supporting new members, helping organize events, translation, and many other arenas.
<boredandblogging> LoCos have online meetings, usually in IRC, and meet in person.
<boredandblogging> They organize or participate in events promoting Ubuntu.
<boredandblogging> This can be holding install fests after the release of new version of Ubuntu or running stalls and booths at conferences or expos.
<boredandblogging> What if there is no LoCo in your area?
<boredandblogging> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto on directions on how to set up your online presence. Instructions are provided on how to request mailing lists and forums, setting up wiki pages and IRC channels.
<boredandblogging> If you are interested in starting a LoCo, remember that being a leader is more than just setting up your mailing list, IRC channels, etc.
<boredandblogging> You will have to motivate all the volunteers in your team to participate and get things done.
<boredandblogging> Everyone should be involved in some way, and you will need to encourage everyone to participate however they feel comfortable and to their talents.
<boredandblogging> * Communication is key! *
<boredandblogging> So, how are LoCos different from existing Linux user groups (LUG)?
<boredandblogging> The main difference is that LoCos are specifically promoting Ubuntu. LoCos are not interested in replacing existing LUGs.
<boredandblogging> Instead you should work with LUGs to promote Ubuntu. LUGs can be helpful, like getting a place for LoCos to hold meetings.
<boredandblogging> LUGs also provide a good starting point for promoting Ubuntu. There may be existing LUG Ubuntu users who might be interested in advocating Ubuntu.
<boredandblogging> Some of you have seen references to approved LoCos. What are they?
<boredandblogging> Approved LoCos are officials teams that have been recognized for their ongoing contributions and their plans for promoting Ubuntu in the future.
<boredandblogging> Approved LoCos get CDs after every release, hosting for their websites (by Canonical), and materials for booths at conferences.
<boredandblogging> LoCos wanting to be approved should provide evidence of their experience in advocacy, support, exhibitions, translations, etc.
<boredandblogging> To find out how to get approved, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingApproved.
<boredandblogging> Currently, there are some ongoing changes in how LoCos will be approved
<boredandblogging> The Community Council was responsible for evaluating LoCos and approving them.
<boredandblogging> A LoCo Council has been created that will be in charge of approvals from now on.
<boredandblogging> Can non-approved LoCos get CDs?
<boredandblogging> The best way for non-approved LoCos to get CDs is to have each LoCo member order a few from shipit, then collect them together and distribute them as necessary.
<boredandblogging> A common question that is often asked: Having a website would help LoCos grow. Why can't non-approved teams have websites?
<boredandblogging> Usually LoCos spend too much time trying to figure out what tools to use on their websites, how it should look, etc. The time is better spent contacting local resources and offering to do presentations or interacting face to face.
<boredandblogging> Hopefully most teams will work hard and get approved quickly, so this should not be a problem :-)
<boredandblogging> Another common question: I can't motivate anyone. Everyone just idles on IRC!
<boredandblogging> This is tough. Many people don't like to take initiative, but like to do things. Try giving them a small specific task to do. They might feel more involved at that point.
<boredandblogging> Just for reference, a good starting point for LoCos is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase.
<boredandblogging> How do run install fests or other real life events?
<boredandblogging> The wiki has a wealth of information.
<boredandblogging> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoRunningInstallfests
<boredandblogging> and
<boredandblogging> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<boredandblogging> questions?
<boredandblogging> face to face meetings can be a good way to get started
<boredandblogging> they may be small at first
<boredandblogging> but getting to know fellow ubunteros can help people bring together
<boredandblogging> and easier to start holding events to promote Ubuntu
<boredandblogging> it also allows for better opportunities to find out where your local region needs help
<boredandblogging> and can take advantage of the LoCo
<boredandblogging> join the loco-contacts mailing list to discuss ideas with other LoCos or just to bounce ideas off of other LoCos
<boredandblogging> to see what has worked for other teams
<boredandblogging> Leadership in LoCos can be structured in different ways
<boredandblogging> some teams have an individual that runs the team
<boredandblogging> some have a small group responsible for the direction of the team
<boredandblogging> there is no best way, but you should see what works for you LoCo
<boredandblogging> Synutx asked if the LoCo can provide commercial support to companies
<boredandblogging> specifically if the business opportunity can be done under the LoCo team
<boredandblogging> while that really isn't the point of the LoCo team, I would probably encourage creating some kind of legal entity
<boredandblogging> while probably partnering with Canonical to provide partner services
<progfou> <smeg0l> QUESTION i like ti get involved on the danish loCo team What steps do i need to tke ?
<boredandblogging> smeg0l: take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam
<boredandblogging> i would suggest joining the mailing list, irc channel, and forums
<boredandblogging> introduce yourself
<boredandblogging> see what they need help with
<boredandblogging> and ask for what you can help with
<boredandblogging> remember, every LoCo needs help
<boredandblogging> every time wants to do lots of different projects
<boredandblogging> but there is usually a shortage of people
<boredandblogging> smeg0l: I'm sure the Danish Team would love to have you
<boredandblogging> next?
<progfou> <nealmcb> QUESTION: Which locos are setting a good example for others to look at?
<boredandblogging> nealmcb: take a look at the approved teams in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
<boredandblogging> most of them should be pretty active
<boredandblogging> australia and brazil are very active
<boredandblogging> also lots of teams in central america
<boredandblogging> they are very active in organizing events and holding expos promoting Ubuntu
<boredandblogging> for example, the nicaragua team just did the FLISOL 2008 event
<boredandblogging> next?
<progfou> <Toadinator> QUESTION: I'm going to host a program at my local library with another LoCo member (Indiana) to get people to try Ubuntu for one week risk free (thank God for Wubi). What are some things I could do to get people interested and come?
<boredandblogging> progfou: prepare instructions on how to install Wubi and hand them out with CDs
<boredandblogging> provide URLs for help
<progfou> the question was from Toadinator, not mine :-)
<boredandblogging> make sure they understand that you are willing to help them out
<boredandblogging> you might also want to demonstrate the wubi installtion at the library
<boredandblogging> just so they know what to expect
<boredandblogging> if you walk them through it in person, they will be more comfortable
<boredandblogging> also make sure they have links to the indiana team
<boredandblogging> forums, mailing lists, or a contact person
<boredandblogging> next?
<progfou> <Syntux> QUESTION: What if a LoCo team decided to release a Localized distro based on ubuntu, or localization-package to make it more local ie, more Jordanian in my case; would that hurt if we call it Jordan/Ubuntu ?
<boredandblogging> Syntux: that should be fine...
<boredandblogging> lots of LoCos localize for their region
<boredandblogging> i'm not sure the name is an issue
<boredandblogging> next?
<progfou> <Syntux> QUESTION: What if a LoCo team decided to release a Localized distro based on ubuntu, or localization-package to make it more local ie, more Jordanian in my case; would that hurt if we call it Jordan/Ubuntu ?
<progfou> ooops...
<progfou> <progfou> QUESTION (mine this time): do you know if canonical would sponsorize such localisation?
<boredandblogging> what do you mean sponsorize? Like doing official translations through Rosetta?
<boredandblogging> I would check Launchpad to see if someone has already started working with your language
<boredandblogging> you can find some marketing material on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
<progfou> <nealmcb> QUESTION: Would this be a good time to make a plug for the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam (since there isn't a session this week for them)?
<boredandblogging> if your LoCos does create some new material, I encourage LoCos to put their material on it
<boredandblogging> so other LoCos can benefit from it as well
<boredandblogging> next
<progfou> <nealmcb> QUESTION: Any idea when the new Loco Council will first meet to approve new teams?
<boredandblogging> the next meeting will be during UDS week actually...
<boredandblogging> I'm not sure if it will be taking approval requests then
<progfou> <Monika|K> what's UDS week
<boredandblogging> but it will be widely announced when the LoCo Council is ready
<boredandblogging> UDS-Intrepid will be Monday 19th May to Friday 23rd May 2008
<boredandblogging> the LoCo Council is working on logistics, so the approval process can be smooth
<boredandblogging> and easy for LoCos
<boredandblogging> next
<progfou> (no other question for now)
<progfou> <Monika|K> QUESTION: When a Kubuntu team has active members, a forum, a wiki, active IRC, a planet, its own packaging archive, a translation team, participates in many local and national Linux conventions and related events with boots and talks ... why can it not be a Loco team?
<boredandblogging> Monika|K: there is nothing wrong with it being a sub-team of a general loco
<boredandblogging> but having a separate loco for kubuntu seems too much
<jcastro> ~5 more minutes boredandblogging
<boredandblogging> too much overlap in resources
<boredandblogging> a LoCo can promote Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc
<boredandblogging> a LoCo doesn't just have to do just gnome Ubuntu
<boredandblogging> next?
<progfou> (no other question so far)
<jcastro> ok that's it for time, thanks Nick!
<boredandblogging> thanks everyone
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | How to ask questions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules | Ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefaced with "QUESTION:" |See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn to filter out channel noise | "Hardware Debugging and Diagnostics" - Michael Anderson
<nosrednaekim> hello everyone
<nosrednaekim> My name is Michael Anderson, aka, nosrednaekim (extra points to those who can figure out what that stands for)
<nosrednaekim> I have been doing community support in #kubuntu (and now #kubuntu-kde4) ever since the release of edgy, so about 2 years.
<nosrednaekim> While I do work on the occasional app or bug for Kubuntu, I normally do just user support.
<nosrednaekim> At least half of the probems in user support deal with getting hardware functioning (its not called "hard" for nothing).
<nosrednaekim> In this session, we will deal with some simple command line applications to:
<nosrednaekim> *determine hardware configurations and associated drivers
<nosrednaekim> manipulating common hardware components
<nosrednaekim>  such as wireless cards, sound chips, and storage devices.
<nosrednaekim> Why not graphical applications to do these tasks you may ask?
<nosrednaekim> 1) the output of graphical applications is hard to communicate via any text means (forums, IRC)
<nosrednaekim> 2) command line output is usually far more informative and easily searchable with grep as well (more on that later)
<nosrednaekim> 3) a graphical tool is mot much use when you are trying to fix your video card drivers
<nosrednaekim> This information should be invaluable to you if you are either thinking of doing user support, or commonly do installs
<nosrednaekim> on different hardware configurations.
<nosrednaekim> So first, some commands to determine what your hardware devices are:
<nosrednaekim> (if I'm going to fast... someone yell at me in chat)
<nosrednaekim> There are three very useful command for this purpose -- lshw, lspci and lsusb.
<nosrednaekim> Everyone run lspci in a terminal/console. your output should look something like this:
<nosrednaekim> ....
<nosrednaekim> 00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K8 [Athlon64/Opteron] HyperTransport Technology Configuration
<nosrednaekim> 01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RS485 [Radeon Xpress 1100 IGP]
<nosrednaekim> 08:01.0 CardBus bridge: ENE Technology Inc CB-712/4 Cardbus Controller (rev 10))
<nosrednaekim> 08:02.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ (rev 10)
<nosrednaekim> 08:04.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR2413 802.11bg NIC (rev 01)
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> As you can see, I have a not-so-nice ATI card on PCI bus 1:5.0
<nosrednaekim> Why is this important? Well, the PCID is a
<nosrednaekim> very crucial part of the "Device" section of the many xorg.conf configurations, allowing you to differentiate between multiple video cards in the same configuration file.
<nosrednaekim> A host of other information can be gleaned from this output such as exact model numbers for hardware components to google with.
<nosrednaekim> Next command is "lsusb". Everyone can run that too if you want. My output is:
<nosrednaekim> Bus 002 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
<nosrednaekim> Bus 001 Device 003: ID 05e1:0b02 Syntek Semiconductor Co., Ltd
<nosrednaekim> Bus 001 Device 001: ID 0000:0000
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> Not really exciting since this is a laptop and the only thing I have attached right now is a webcam i'm trying to fight to get working (yes, I have hardware troubles too)
<nosrednaekim> Printers and fancy(USB) keybaords will show up here too.
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> Onwards! to lshw, the most powerful command of them all.
<nosrednaekim> lshw is best run with sudo, since that gives you alot more information.
<nosrednaekim> Everyone can run "sudo lshw" if you want.
<nosrednaekim> As you can tell, it takes a bit longer and generates quite a bit more information than lspci.
<nosrednaekim> Here, you can find good information on everything from your BIOS version to what driver your wireless card is using.
<nosrednaekim> Lets run through one of these sections and see what information is included.
<nosrednaekim> ....
<nosrednaekim> *-multimedia
<nosrednaekim>              description: Audio device
<nosrednaekim>              product: IXP SB4x0 High Definition Audio Controller
<nosrednaekim>              vendor: ATI Technologies Inc
<nosrednaekim>              physical id: 14.2
<nosrednaekim>              bus info: pci@0000:00:14.2
<nosrednaekim>              version: 01
<nosrednaekim>              width: 64 bits
<nosrednaekim>              clock: 33MHz
<nosrednaekim>              capabilities: pm msi bus_master cap_list
<nosrednaekim>              configuration: driver=HDA Intel latency=64 module=snd_hda_intel
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> This tells us alot of information we already knew from lspci.
<nosrednaekim> It also gives us another very crucial piece of information: the driver and kernel module for the device.
<nosrednaekim> The module can be used along with rmmod to very effectively disable this piece of hardware or "free it up" for a new driver.
<nosrednaekim> for instance, here I would run "sudo rmmod snd_hda_intel"
<nosrednaekim> If you want to permanantly disable this module/device, you can place a reference to the module in /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist with
<nosrednaekim> 'sudo echo "blacklist modulename" >> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist '
<nosrednaekim> or manually editing that file
<nosrednaekim> Ok, lets have a +1 fromeveryone who is keeping up
<nosrednaekim> in #ubuntu-classroo-chat of course
<nosrednaekim> *classroom
<nosrednaekim> ok, great!
<nosrednaekim> Finally, a related command to this is "lsmod" which lists the loaded kernel modules.
<nosrednaekim> In conclusion, you can "pipe" any of these commands though grep -i (-i makes the search case insensitive) to search for just what you want.
<nosrednaekim> For example: "lspci | grep -i ethernet" will return:
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> 08:02.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ (rev 10)
<nosrednaekim> 08:04.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR2413 802.11bg NIC (rev 01)
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> Thats on my computer of course.
<nosrednaekim> This is especially useful for IRC support where a pastebin would waste time when you only need one line.
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> The next command we are going to explore is "dmesg"
<nosrednaekim> Dmesg prints out the errors and status messages from the kernel as stored in /var/log/messages.
<nosrednaekim> Dmesg output is useful for seeing the /dev location of newly attached removeable disks, and for many other things such as module loading errors.
<nosrednaekim> Normally, when you run dmesg, only the last 50 lines or so are useful for the purpose, so you may want to pipe the output through tail, or only paste that many lines.
<nosrednaekim> Now, lets move onto some diagnostics for pieces of hardware that commonly have "issues" within Ubuntu: wireless and sound.
<nosrednaekim> As many of you may know, Wireless is an especially finicky piece of hardware and the NetworkManager does not always work either.
<nosrednaekim> Iwconfig is the most powerful command for wireless diagnostics. If you have wireless, go ahead and run that.
<nosrednaekim> th0      IEEE 802.11g  ESSID:"OpenWRT"
<nosrednaekim>           Mode:Managed  Frequency:2.437 GHz  Access Point: FE:ED:FA:CE:DB:EE:F
<nosrednaekim>           Bit Rate=54 Mb/s
<nosrednaekim>           Power Management:off
<nosrednaekim>           Link Quality:48/100  Signal level:-65 dBm  Noise level:-96 dBm
<nosrednaekim>           Rx invalid nwid:0  Rx invalid crypt:0  Rx invalid frag:0
<nosrednaekim>           Tx excessive retries:1330  Invalid misc:5687   Missed beacon:0
<nosrednaekim> ....
<nosrednaekim> thats my output
<nosrednaekim> From this we can the following useful information:
<nosrednaekim> *can gather
<nosrednaekim> * the protocol of the card (IEEE 802.11x), if your card is in b mode, it could explain why you are getting slower speeds.
<nosrednaekim> * the mode, this should almost always be Managed, unless you are doing somthing special
<nosrednaekim> * Number of Errors for different reasons, these can tell you if your antennae is not on, or if you are
<nosrednaekim>   not correctly connected to your wireless AP (the error numbers in ifconfig are equally useful for this)
<nosrednaekim> You can also change any of these values (except the errors) with the iwconfig command (probably requiring sudo)
<nosrednaekim> Run "man iwconfig" to see how each of these (and others) can be changed (but not now since its a fairly long document)
<nosrednaekim> The next useful wireless command is "iwlist <devicename> scan"
<nosrednaekim> <devicename> is the logical name of the device seen on iwconfig, ath0 for myself
<nosrednaekim> This should give a list of AP's, their ESSID and any encryption they may have.
<nosrednaekim> Again, this information may be in the NetworkManager, but the text is both more informative and ALWAYS available
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> Ok! thats it for networking!
<nosrednaekim> Next, lets do some hard drive diagnostics.
<nosrednaekim> Here will will have a nice speed contest, so stop watching those movies and playing those games and let your hard drive be dedicated to this benchmark (and your eyes to my talk!!!!)
<nosrednaekim> run "sudo hdparm -t /dev/hda" or whatever logical drive name you have, maybe /dev/sda
<nosrednaekim> When its finished, paste the MB/sec measurement in -chat, and we'll see who has teh l33test computer :)
<nosrednaekim> ok! thank you... as you can see, there is quite a range
<nosrednaekim> and I would bet that gscholz has a 4200RPM drive with that number...
<nosrednaekim> if you are getting numbers below 10, its not good, and could cause things to run very slowly
<nosrednaekim> ok, so that will tell you if a computer might be possibly be performing poorly because of a slow, or under utilized disc
<nosrednaekim> hdparm can tell you alot more stuff about your disc, as well as perform some --many potentially dangerous -- performance enhancments
<nosrednaekim> I just heard all the ricers listening to this talk suddenly become very interested,So
<nosrednaekim> if you are the ricer type, please do read the man page first :)
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> Next, is the command "smartctl" for reading the SMART information for your hard drive.
<nosrednaekim> you can install it with "sudo apt-get install smartmontools" and execute it with "sudo smartctl --all /dev/hda"
<nosrednaekim> of course, changin /dev/hda for your device name
<nosrednaekim> Note... if your load count is over 100,000 and you have had your computer for a year or less, you may have the
<nosrednaekim> infamous power-management bug which could potentially drastically shorten the life of your drive.
<nosrednaekim> Ok, everyone done with that?
<nosrednaekim> ...
<nosrednaekim> SOUND!
<nosrednaekim> lets have a -1 from everyone who has had a problem with this essential function.
<nosrednaekim> I'm not very good at sound since it has always Just Worked(tm) for me, and I mostly only have experiece with commands I personally use.
<nosrednaekim> However, there is one command that is vital for sound debugging that I have been told about, and that is "alsa-info.sh."
<nosrednaekim> you can get it with "wget  http://hg.alsa-project.org/alsa/raw-file/tip/alsa-info.sh"
<nosrednaekim> (there is a wiki page for sound troubleshooting here as well where you can get this information https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems )
<nosrednaekim> execute this command with "./alsa-info.sh --no-upload"
<nosrednaekim> Include the output of this in your bug report/forum post for better reponses (I personally have no clue about what it all means, so don't talk ot me about it :P
<nosrednaekim> crimsun, you about?
<nosrednaekim> I guess not.... progfou I can take questions now
<progfou> <gscholz> QUESTION: What do the numbers in brackets mean ie [  320.656000] (dmesg output)?
<nosrednaekim> gscholz: that is the "kernel time" in seconds since boot
<nosrednaekim> next?
<progfou> <xxxYURAxxx> QUESTION: how to get rid of the problem sr0 device?  i am don install new version ubuntu because of this problem
<nosrednaekim> I am not aware of that issue or how to fix it, sorry :(
<nosrednaekim> next
<progfou> (no other question so far)
<nosrednaekim> <gscholz>QUESTION: What does that tell me (load cycle)? How to repare?
<nosrednaekim> gsholz, no, it simply tells you that you have an alot of on/off cycles, which depending on the age of the drive, can be very bad
<nosrednaekim> A word about what you should include when you make a forum post about certain issues
<nosrednaekim> VIDEO/X problems -- always include your /etc/X11/xorg.conf, the output of "lspci | grep -i Vesa" and the contents of "/var/log/Xorg.0.log"
<nosrednaekim> <rodolfo> QUESTION: What if my HDD has a load cycle count over 100K? Is there a script/patch to get around this?
<nosrednaekim> if you have a laptop, yes, there is a powermanagement patch to lessen this
<progfou> <DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: There are plans when (if ever) to include into the Ubuntu distro an application with human interface (GUI) to analyze and configure hardware problems regarding network devices drivers, sound drivers, tvtuner devices?
<nosrednaekim> rodolfo: here https://launchpad.net/bug59695.html
<nosrednaekim> DoruHush: I am not aware of what Ubuntu has in that regard, but I know Kubuntu(KDE) includes such a app by default
<nosrednaekim> DoruHush: the ouput is akin to lshw, so you can't exactly fix things within it though
<nosrednaekim> DoruHush: such a application would be very nice though, yes.
<nosrednaekim> OK, I hope this session has helped you debug hardware problems better
<nosrednaekim> many of the commands I listed have more options, so "man programname" will help you hone your detection skills even better
<nosrednaekim> Thank you all for coming out today (and to OpenWeek in general since this is the last general session)!
<jcastro> thanks Michael!
<jcastro> ok, that was the last session, thanks everyone for coming!
<jcastro> and especially to our speakers for giving up their saturday!
<jcastro> I am now opening up this room for feedback and questions about openweek itself
<nealmcb> jcastro: thanks for putting together a fascinating week!
<jcastro> you're welcome, thanks for coming!
<nealmcb> a session on marketing might make sense next time
<Pusselgenerator> Awesome, learned alot!
<bobbo> jcastro: great week :D
<nealmcb> too bad we didn't get a training session
<nosrednaekim> thanks jcastro :)
<jcastro> nealmcb: yeah for sure I will schedule training next time
<nosrednaekim> specially for including my last minute request!
<Lardarse> jcastro: just before the open week started, i heard a comment about the timing of the open week sessions not being ideal for people who aren't in a timezone that's close to UTC. Are there any plans to look at ths for future open weeks?
<jcastro> also the intro to mobile Q+A was interrupted by the presenters DSL messing up so we will reschedule that again as well
<ted_> jcastro: Excellent open week, the speakers did a fantastic job.  Thank you.
<progfou> yep, great week! even if I sadly miss almost half of it... hopefully we'll get logs online :)
<nealmcb> I wonder if a regular schedule of session, like one a week at different times, would work, rather than a firehose of info for a week straight
<jcastro> Lardarse: yes I have been knocking the idea of hemisphere-specific openweek, but it's difficult enough to get enough speakers for the one open week
<nosrednaekim> progfou: they should all be up by now
<progfou> nosrednaekim, ok I'll correct a sudo one right now then ;-)
<jcastro> nealmcb: that's a good idea, I will put that down, thanks
<nosrednaekim> progfou: ah! forgot about that! heh
<nosrednaekim> progfou: thanks
<jcastro> I noticed that attendance is down a bunch today (by 100 people), do you guys think it's worth having sessions on a saturday?
<Heartsbane> jcastro: not a full day, weekends are for living
<jcastro> I agree. :D
<Heartsbane> just my .02
<progfou> jcastro, I second for the training one! I'm interested in trying to do some in Vietnam and so I'll need to learn how to organize them
<Monika|K> I thought weekends would be more attended
<Monika|K> because there would not be so much time zone difficulties
<jcastro> Monika|K: I was expecting that as well
<progfou> (note: we'll do that in native language here, so we'll need some translation work, which means access to materiel first...)
<nosrednaekim> monday and tuesday sessions were packed..
<Monika|K> How was Thursday, as a holiday in most of the world?
<Heartsbane> jcastro: maybe a way to solve the timezone difficulty would be a audio component, a podcast but then again I have suggested something like this when I met you
<nosrednaekim> eh... what holiday was Thursday?
<nosrednaekim> <_<
<jcastro> nearly every session had around 300-350 people in the channel
<Monika|K> there were two holidays on Thursday
<jcastro> except today, where we hovered around 200-ish
<nealmcb> publishing stats on attendance would be nice, to help us all figure out what might be worth changing
<Monika|K> one: the first of May, worker's day
<nosrednaekim> ah.... ok... that comes a month later here in the US
<Monika|K> and the other is always a Thursday ... means something like Christ going back to heaven
<Monika|K> no idea what it's in English
<progfou> Monika|K, and the 30 of April in Vietnam ;-)
<nosrednaekim> the day of Assencion?
<Monika|K> could be
<Monika|K> 1st of June is worker's day in the US?
<Monika|K> that's children's day ... but it's not a holiday (not free)
<Monika|K> Friday was weird at work, I was almost alone in my department <g>
<nosrednaekim> erm... sorry, I was mixed up... too much coffee I guess :)
<nosrednaekim> Memorial day is later this month
<nosrednaekim> and Labor day is in Sept. :)
<BonesolTeraDyne> I've got one major suggestion: Encourage the speakers to loosen up on their speeches. It seemed like the business-esqe talks didn't get as much in the way of attendance\interest.
<jcastro> BonesolTeraDyne: example?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week is over, thanks for participating! | Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek |
<nosrednaekim> progfou: BTW... thanks for handling questions
<BonesolTeraDyne> Nixternal's talk seemed to pull in the crowd, while... grr... I can't think of the one I wanted to use
<nosrednaekim> haha... nixternal is awesome :)
<Monika|K> he's cool
<progfou> nosrednaekim, you're welcome :)
<Heartsbane> nixternal was awesome
<BonesolTeraDyne> nosrednaekim: he is our version of balmer, after all
<nosrednaekim> !nixternal
<BonesolTeraDyne> And no, I don't plan on letting him live it down
<nosrednaekim> belh... no bot
<jcastro> btw you can also send feedback to me via mail - jorge (at) ubuntu.com
<nealmcb> nixternal: "ubottu: Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!"
<BonesolTeraDyne> XD
<Monika|K> We're thinking about doing something like Ubuntu Open Week for D-A-CH (German-speaking countries), but the planning is not very far yet, not sure if it will work out.
<stdin> bit late, but the bots here now
<BonesolTeraDyne> XD
<nosrednaekim> !Riddell
<Monika|K> certainly not 7 hours a day
<ubottu> Factoid riddell not found
<jcastro> Monika|K: yeah I believe the dutch team islooking about doing a localized "openweek"
<BonesolTeraDyne> Ah,I enjoyed Open Week. Well, what I could attend of it, anyway. Had to go to work on Mon, Wed, and Fri.
<jcastro> if there is people-power to do localized openweeks then that would also handle the timezone problem as well
<Monika|K> yes, that's the main thought behind it
<Monika|K> and doing it in German, of course ;)
<Monika|K> even though essentially all Germans speak English, chats are too fast for many
<nealmcb> jcastro: does the doc team mine the transcripts for adding to the wiki and docs in any organized way?
<jcastro> the scribes team have been doing that iirc
<nealmcb> :-)
<nealmcb> asking for questions ahead of time somehow might be handy also, to help with timezone stuff
<nealmcb> e.g. on a wiki page
<progfou> e.g. on the log wiki page
 * nealmcb nods
<progfou> since the links are ready as soon as the week is planned
<nosrednaekim> that might work for the Ask Mark session, but I don't think it'd work for ones in which things are taught like "python packageing"
<jcastro> yeah, plus the realtime aspect is what makes it interesting
<jcastro> otherwise it'd be just like a forum thread
<progfou> that's true...
<tzeentch__> jcastro: you say someone from the scribes team might be creating docs based on the session logs?
 * nealmcb notes the note at the top of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/ReportBugs2
<jcastro> tzeentch__: maybe for some things? usually sessions refer to existing docs
<nealmcb> jcastro: yeah - I'd give preference to live questions.  but some sessions ended early for lack of questions, and some presenters didn't know what folks were most interested in
<progfou> no, he said they Â« have been doing that Â» ;-)
<jcastro> they have been posting the logs ups
<tzeentch__> jcastro: any idea how to let them know to skip 'python packaging' one? just to avoid duplicated effort. i created a tutorial from it (on stani's request).
<progfou> are the logs managed manually? (I'm currently waiting for this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweek/hardy/hardwareDB )
<tzeentch__> ah, ok
<jcastro> tzeentch__: you can add something to the top of the log as in "Check out the guide _here_, this info is now deprecated" or something like that
<progfou> tzeentch__, thanks for this work! where will you put it?
<jcastro> progfou: yeah someone has been doing them, but if you want and have logs feel free to add them
<stdin> progfou: yes, someone has to manually enter them into the wiki after formatting them nicely
<tzeentch__> jcastro: ok, it's on the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Python
<jcastro> tzeentch__: oh cool!
<jcastro> tzeentch__: link to that page on top of the log but keep the original log intact for archival purposes
<tzeentch__> jcastro: no probs
<nealmcb> tzeentch__: yeah - pretty!
<progfou> stdin, done (I've uploaded my log from XChat), but what's the meaning of "formatting them nicely" here?
<nealmcb> tzeentch__: you might want to link the other way also, to help people find it and other openweek transcripts
<jcastro> ok any more burning feedback? I need to get food soonish
<tzeentch__> nealmcb: heh, thanks! ok, will do
<nealmcb> :-)
<stdin> progfou: just making sure it has not clutter like join/part messages
<nealmcb> jcastro: you've earned a nice meal.....
<jcastro> and a beer!
<nealmcb> \o
<stdin> progfou: where did you upload it?
<Monika|K> free beer as in free beer ;)
<progfou> jcastro: I would like to complain about last-moment changes... it really is a pain when you are in GMT+0700 ! but the quality of the sessions would let me forgive everything ;-)
<nealmcb> Monika|K: Prost!
<Monika|K> :-)
<jcastro> progfou: yeah, that was unfortunate. :-/
<jcastro> that is not a normal thing we do
<Monika|K> what happened? people sick?
<jcastro> mark's schedule got wonked for us at the last minute. :-/
<jcastro> ok off to dinner, feel free to hang out!
<progfou> stdin, on the wrong page... :-P I've just redone it
<Monika|K> what's wonked
<progfou> have a nice dinner! :)
<nealmcb> Monika|K: abruptly changed
<stdin> progfou: looks good to me
<nealmcb> or fouled up
<Monika|K> gute Nacht
<progfou> stdin, should the log be kept exactly as the original or may I have the right to correct some errorneus command line? (acknowleged by the author)
<sucitrams_> good night all
<stdin> progfou: if the commands are dangerous then I would say it's a good idea, but if they aren't (and the author corrects them) then I don't see a reason to
<stdin> I'd rather the log was as un-tampered with as possible, it is a log after all ;)
<progfou> the command is not dangerous, but not useful too because of the mistake (so the reader may be misguided because of this error) ; the author forgot to correct it during the session, that's why I proposed him to correct it
<stdin> if the correction isn't in the log, then go, correct it :)
<progfou> done, and so I've finished with my DUD (Daily Ubuntu Duty) and I have the right to go to sleep and have nice dreams ;-)
<progfou> see ya everyone!
 * progfou is gone to sleep... ZZZzzz
<stdin> good night
<nosrednaekim> later
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-05-04
<brobostigon> hi all
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-27
<SherokiX> peace &&love
<tkelito> /mode $me +x
<DKcross> jpds,
<SherokiX> hi
<seek278> j
<jacopo> date -u
<stesind> date -u
<zaidka> date -u
<SnowMann> date -u
<driftwood_> hi
 * ball waves
<zaidka> hi driftwood
<zaidka> what does "date -u" do?
<littleblue> date -u
<littleblue> find utc
<Nassarius> hey driftwood_  :)
<zaidka> find utc
<zaidka> date -u
<zaidka> nothing happned
<pleia2> zaidka: you have to run it in a terminal :)
<pleia2> not here
<littleblue> use a shell dat -u ->> Mo 27. Apr 13:39:43 UTC 2009
<zaidka> then why are poeple typing it here :D
<pleia2> because they are confused
<zaidka> cool,, one hour left
<jcastro> t minus ~50 minutes!
<pleia2> :)
<kusanagi> ^^
 * ball hides behind his chair
<ball> Oooh, a red one!
<ball> Bore da YDdraigGoch
 * popey hugs jcastro 
<YDdraigGoch> Prynhawn da ball :P
<jcastro> hi popey!
 * Nassarius demands that people talk in here
<ball> YDdraigGoch: well, it's morning here.
 * popey refuses to meet Nassarius demands
<popey> oh, damnit
<JManGt_> cricket noises.... cri cri... cri cri
<Nassarius> XD
<YDdraigGoch> ball, my bad then. Don't come across that many people who know what welsh is and live on a completely different time zone ^^
 * JManGt_ wonders when will the beer drinking begin?
<DKcross> hi everyone
<JManGt_> DJones, o/
<Nassarius> hello DKcross
<DKcross> what time it is
<JManGt_> DKcross, 14 UTCish?
<Nassarius> 10:20 AM here in the southeast USA
<DKcross> how many time ?
 * DJones wonders whether the hilight was a mis-tab, or does he need to wake up
<DKcross> i am from El Salvador
<DKcross> its 8:21 AM
<JManGt_> DKcross, saludos de guatemala, empieza a las 9 am
<DKcross> JManGt_,  hola amigo.
<JManGt_> DJones, sorry for the mis-tab
<DKcross> ah bueno :D open WEEk a lo Latino:D
<ball> Nassarius: 09:22 here
<JManGt_> DKcross, cabal ;)
<DJones> JManGt_: No probs, reminded me to keep watching the clock ticking away anyway
<DKcross> JManGt_,  Como les fue en el flisol?
<DKcross> jpds, Hi friend... how are u?
<JManGt_> DKcross, pues en la capital nos fue bien, mucha gente complacida
<JManGt_> en el interior de la republica nos falto publicidad
<DKcross> JManGt_,  q perfecto
<ball> 14:24?
<JManGt_> DKcross, y a ustedes como les fue?
<DKcross> JManGt_,  fui organizador..
<DKcross> y estuve a cargo de la organizaciÃ³n interna en la Universidad.
<JManGt_> DKcross, y cuanta gente les llego?
<DKcross> en el evento central.
<DKcross> como 500
<DKcross> un poco mÃ¡s
<JManGt_> DKcross, :D
<DKcross> pero lo que te querÃ­a decir es que aun estoy cansado
<DKcross> JManGt_,  esperabamos mÃ¡s personas..
<DKcross> di dos ponencias sabes.. y una no la pude dar.
<DKcross> el usb booteable de jaunty no funciono
<JManGt_> DKcross, nosotros por falta de gente para atender o por miedo de los usuarios
<JManGt_> repartimos portable apps
<JManGt_> ademas del cd de intrepid
<DKcross> pues mira,  el principal fin del evento se logro.. porque repartimos muchos cds, habian promedio 800 cds solicitados con antelaciÃ³n por el registro que se diseÃ±o en el website
<JManGt_> DKcross, y la gente que te llego fueron humanos normales o gente tech?
<DKcross> de todo
<DKcross> no todos eran estudiantes o trabajadores de la informaÃ¡tica
<DKcross> habÃ­an doctores.
<DKcross> y abogados
<DKcross> administradores etc..
<DKcross> farmaceuticos
<JManGt_> DKcross, aprovechando la asesoria como le hicieron para promocionarse?
<jurjenst> I hope Jono will still talk in English ;)
<popey> jurjenst: he only knows two languages
<popey> English and Gibberish
<jcastro> popey: Do you know how to do all this irc op/mod stuff? Because I do not.
<popey> heh
<jcastro> please don't make me go read docs
<jcastro> sideys for the win
<popey> \o/
<jcastro> ok, what do we want in the topic
<popey> Next session: HH:MM UTC, <subject>
<popey> at the start
<popey> not that anyone ever reads it ;)
<DKcross> JManGt_,  para la publicidad hubo mucho movimiento.... carta a los medios, se creo un spot radial, y se estuvo transmitiendo desde 2 semanas antes..
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1500 UTC: Introduction || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<jcastro> how's that?
 * ball sings in very bad factory Spanish
<popey> winner
<JManGt_> DKcross, te presento a tuxtor, aquel fue de los organizadores del Flisol aqui en Guate
<tuxtor> buenas o/
<jcastro> \o/
<DKcross> tuxtor,  buenas amigo como estas.. como les fue?
<DKcross> porque no hay ubuntu-gt?
<tuxtor> DKcross, pues bastante bien, al menos en la ciudad capital no nos dimos abasto y en las otras ciudades aunque fue menos afluencia logramos ir un poco mÃ¡s alla del centro del pais
<tuxtor> DKcross, la comunidad es aun pequeÃ±a y respecto a distros somos muy distintos :-P
<JManGt_> tuxtor, mira aquellos armaron un spot radial para promocionarse, algo asi se podria hacer para el cgsol
<DKcross> los eventos fuera de la capital fueron antes.. fueron el 17 y 18 de abril
<DKcross> que es cgsol?
<DKcross> JManGt_,  tuxtor  entonces no son ubunteros?
<tuxtor> DKcross, congreso guatemalteco de software libre
<tuxtor> es a finales de aÃ±o
<tuxtor> DKcross, JManGt_ si
<tuxtor> yo soy un hibrido que ayuda a cualquier evento
<DKcross> pero no es el 19 de sept?
<tuxtor> no importando distribucion xD
<JManGt_> DKcross, yo si
<tuxtor> DKcross, la fecha es tentativa
<DKcross> bueno yo ayudo a cualquier distro
<tuxtor> pero si es en septiembre
<donsdw> Will the classroom be in English?
<DKcross> pero me tome el proyecto  de ubuntu mÃ¡s a pecho
<sirdiego> donsdw: yes
<donsdw> thank you
<DKcross> en septiembre es el SFD tuxtor  JManGt_
<JManGt_> MagicFab, o/ saludos desde guatemala
<DKcross> es el 19
<tuxtor> DKcross, si es que el aÃ±o pasado hicimos el congreso porque hubieron inconvenientes para realizar el SFD, pero fue fuera de tiempo
<DKcross> good mornig MagicFab
<tuxtor> ahorita queremos combinar las actividades :)
 * tuxtor just has noticed that this channel works in english :-P
<jcastro> ~15 minutes!
<MagicFab> tuxtor, DKcross when it starts, "# Do NOT speak while the host is doing the tutorial part of the session. Talking happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat "
 * JManGt_ chants beer, beer, beer!
<drostie> beer beer beer!
<drostie> hear hear! :D
<DKcross> MagicFab,  i know.no problem
<iluvubun>  /ignore -channels #ubuntu-classroom-chat * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS
<tuxtor> MagicFab, ok sorry
<iamskillz> so what is this sesion gona be all about?
<kusanagi> iamskillz, Introduction - Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, in this session Jono and Jorge will explain how the week works, what to expect, and how to get the best out of your week.
<iamskillz> kusanagi: thanks :D
<popey> jcastro: ikonia is also here to help from an op point of view
<jcastro> cool!
<jcastro> ~10 minutes!
<ikonia> hi
<popey> jcastro: (he knows a lot more about it than me) but sshhh, don't tell.
<ikonia> yeah right
<emgent> jono: your twitter rulez.
<emgent> ;)
<iamskillz> will these sessions and tutorials all be types?
<iamskillz> *typed
<iamskillz> or do we need our speakers on
<popey> iamskillz: its text based, yes
<iamskillz> oh kool
<popey> you can turn your speakers on if you think it will help
<iamskillz> lol
<iamskillz> didnt know about this open week
<iamskillz> until about 10min ago
<popey> However this isn't War Games, and Joshua wont start speaking to you, or asking you for games of Nuclear War.
<jono> emgent, :)
<iamskillz> lucky i loged into ubuntu-uk
<popey> \o/
<popey> When it all starts, we ask everyone to move comments and questions to the channel #ubuntu-classroom-chat, so it's easy for everyone to follow the speaker
<SiDi> Does anyone remember the irc option to hide join and quit messages, please ?
<iamskillz> IGNORE <JOINS>
<kusanagi> SiDi, it depens on the client
<iamskillz> im trying
<charlie-tca> whole list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn
<iamskillz> but its not working
<kusanagi> xchat does not have that option i think
<kusanagi> for example
<kusanagi> only via scripts
<iamskillz> ah, that explains it
<kusanagi> (kinda lame btw)
<YDdraigGoch> for xchat type: /set irc_conf_mode on
<thegrieve> use irssi :)
<jtholmes> charlie-tca, morning charlie
<charlie-tca> Good Morning
<jdardon> thegrieve: irssi rulez!
<charlie-tca> glad you made it
<jtholmes> me too
 * ball likes irssi a lot.
<SiDi> YDdraigGoch, charlie-tca thanks !
<charlie-tca> no problem
<jcastro> ~4 minutes!
<YDdraigGoch> You're welcome =)
<jcastro> wow, almost 200 people already
<iamskillz> just tweeted, to get some more :D
<jono> 'ello everyone :-)
<gotunandan> jcastro: what was the highest last time around, any ideas ?
<jcastro> ~300-ish
<jcastro> jono: ready?
<jono> just gonna give it a few mins for the stragglers to arrive :)
<gotunandan> i guess when sabdfl Q & A takes place , there are the most number of people
<Odd_Bloke> All comments by the session leaders should be <140 characters, and 'dented out. :p
<jono> Odd_Bloke, heh
<alanbell1> to do both try /ignore -channels #ubuntu-classroom  JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS
<gotunandan> Odd_Bloke : agreed, had to make two tweets :)
<jono> alright
<jono> lets get going :)
<jono> everyone, welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! :-)
<jdardon> :D
<jono> just before I get started, I would like to point out that this channel is not for discussion, this is where the session is delivered
<jono> instead, feel free to chat over in the mecca that is #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<jono> so, here we are again, and this is our sixth Ubuntu Open Week
<jono> for the last six cycles Open Week has provided an incredible opportunity for us to reach out to new contributors
<jono> and to provide an opportunity to welcome these contributors into our rather awesome community
<jono> the idea behind the very first Ubuntu Open Week was pretty simple
<jono> Ubuntu has a community depends on a wide variety of contributors
<goshawk> hi
<jono> we have literally hundreds of teams, a world covered in LoCo teams, many translated languages and a variety of methods of getting involved in a diverse range of skills
<jono> the problem with diversity is that it can be devilishly difficult to know how to get started
<jono> Ubuntu Open Week is intended to provide a simple on-ramp for new and curious contributors to dip their feet into the Ubuntu community
<gotunandan>  /ignore -channels #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
<jono> to do this Ubuntu Open Week provides a wealth of IRC tuition sessions designed to cover this diverse range of contributions that new contributors can indulge in
<jono> as with every Ubuntu Open Week, you can see this list of sessions over at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> with the Jaunty release and the kick off the Karmic cycle, we have the biggest Ubuntu Open Week ever with more sessions and a special Documentation Day on the Tuesday
<jono> delivering these sessions are some legends in the Ubuntu community - this is not just a great opportunity to learn the ropes, but to learn the ropes from some of the rock stars in that part of the community
<jono> so all in all, this is a pretty rocking week
<jono> and I am hugely excited to meet many of the new contributors in these different parts of the community
<jono> let me now explain how this shebang works
<jono> Ubuntu Open Week sessions, as I said, are listed over at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> to get involved is simple: simply log onto IRC and join this channel #ubuntu-classroom - this is where all of the sessions will be taking place
<jono> sessions will be delivered by the person shown on the schedule and then will present workshops inside the channel
<jono> every session also welcomes questions - to do this, join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> asking a question is simple - in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ask your question with 'QUESTION' at the beginning of the line
<jono> for example:
<kevin_> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> QUESTION: Was it really International Iron Maiden Day last week?
<jono> and naturally, the leader would respond with:
<jono> yes, the most important day of the year
<jono> simple as that
<jono> when asking questions, please don't repeat them
<jono> if you ask a question the leader will see it and hopefully respond at some point, but it may take a little while - these sessions get a little frantic
<jono> the most important rule about Ubuntu Open Week is that you should not speak in this channel - this is purely designed to deliver the session in, if you speak repeatedly, you may feel the strong arm the law hoist you out
<jono> and no one would like that, eh?
<jono> so that is the essence of what Ubuntu Open Week is
<jono> I now want to speak for a little while about a few things and then I will hand over to a few questions before we wrap up
<jono> as such, if you have any questions, pump them into #ubuntu-classroom-chat now
<jono> Ubuntu is an awesome community.
<jono> utterly, utterly awesome.
<jono> one of the reason why I love the community so much is that it inspires itselfd
<jono> itself
<jono> every day when I wake up and get online, I meet and experience incredible work done across the community
<jono> but community is not only about incredible work, it is about incredible people delivering that work
<jono> I started n Ubuntu just under three years ago, and my role is as the Ubuntu Community Manager
<jono> my role and the function of my team is to help enable the community
<jono> our goal is to ensure that the wider Ubuntu community feel engaged in not only achieving their own personal ambitions but the ambitions of the community as a whole
<jono> the thing that drives great community is a sense that everyone benefits from your community
<jono> if you add a comment in a bug report that helps a bug get fixed, that bug fix benefits everyone
<jono> if you translate a string, that benefits everyone
<jono> when you organize LoCo meetings, that benefits the whole area
<kevin_> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> it is this sense that we can all put a brick in the Ubuntu wall that has helped us to build a strong and compelling wall
<jono> but with this ethos comes challenges, and particularly around scale
<jono> Ubuntu is a huge project no, with thousands of participants
<jono> our family spans every country in the world, every language, and every discipline
<jono> managing and maintaining a community is pretty straightforward when your community is small and focused, but when it gets as big as ours, we often need to think carefully about how we welcome this growth but still maintain that sense of community spirit
<jono> and this is where you all come in
<naux> tuantub: vao day lam gi vay ?
<jono> while on one hand we manage this level of growth and scale with better governance and simple and effective processes, the way we maintain that community spirit is by each of us bringing it to our IRC channels, mailing lists and user group meetings
<jono> I have always wanted Ubuntu to maintain a strong sense of family
<jono> and every Ubuntu Developer Summit and LoCo meeting exhibits this sense of family
<jono> but this sense of family is evident in our existing contributor base
<jono> what we need to strive for this week is building that sense of family in our new contributors
<jono> when a new person joins an Ubuntu Open Week session, we want to not only help them get involved but also welcome them into our family, help and encourage them and give them a strong sense of "I got your back"
<jono> it is these connections between our different contributors that will empower every to achieve their own personal goals and do great work for the community
<jono> I am incredibly excited by this Ubuntu Open Week, and I think we have a better opportunity than ever to broaden and expand our worldwide family, and can't wait to here the stories from new people joining us
<jono> so, speaking of family, I want to welcome one specific person who recently joined my team at Canonical as the fourth horsemen
<jono> David Planella who is also known as dpm joined us recently to work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
<jono> David has joined to help us make our translations community rock and to continue to drive forward our belief that Ubuntu should be available to everyone in their language
<antares> HELP ignore
<jono> David joins Daniel Holbach (dholbach) and Jorge Castro (jcastro) on the team and I would love it if you could welcome him in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> I am excited about what he can bring to the wider translations community
<jono> right
<jono> so, without further ado, lets get onto a few questions folks
<jono> paste them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sirdiego> HELP ignore
<jono> <zaidka> QUESTION: what is Loco team?
<jono> zaidka, a LoCo team is a local Ubuntu advocacy group that gets together to help spread the word about Ubuntu in their areas
<jono> LoCo teams not only do advocacy, but many do translatons, write documentation, provide support and host training sessions and events
<jono> we have over 200 of these teams that cover the planet - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams for more
<jono> <goshawk> QUESTION: who are the leaders? who decides them?
<jono> I assume you mean LoCo teams, goshawk
<jcastro> he meant the sessions
<jono> oh the sessions
<jcastro> we answered it, you can move on
<jono> thanks jcastro
<jono> ok cool
<jono> <Odd_Bloke> QUESTION: Why aren't we all silenced in #ubuntu-classroom?
<jono> we do that if needed
<jono> but we prefer to be less hardcore about silencing people
<jono> usually most people are quiet - all looks good so far :)
<jono> <JManGt_> QUESTION: in my county we have a 'big' loco team, but its kind of like in a coma. Any tips on how to jump start a loco?
<jono> great questions JManGt_
<jono> there are two things that make LoCos thrive:
<jono> 1. regular communication
<jono> 2. focus points
<jono> for (1) it means having plenty of chatter on mailing lists, IRC and other resources
<jono> to achieve this, start conversations, ask questions and encourage your community to do so
<jono> for (2) this means getting the team together to do something
<jono> this could be either an event such as a bug jam, packaging jam or release party, or having the team work together on the same project
<jono> a LoCo team will struggle if they have nothing to focus their energy on
<jono> I would begin with organizing a series of events
<jono> a great start here could be a bug jam - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam for details
<jono> <sea-gul1> QUESTION: what's specific about developing for Ubuntu?
<jono> sea-gul1, not entirely sure what you mean here, but developing for Ubuntu in the traditional sense mean packaging
<jono> to do this you need to learn the Debian packaging system and we have a Packaging Guide available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide that explains how to get started
<jono> while we use the Debian packaging system, some of our use of it is a little different, that is where it is more specific
<jono> <iamskillz> QUESTION: I have been using Windows for years, i would like to use linux/Ubuntu, however software companies are not very good with supporting this, i know theere is a HUGE community, but sometimes it feels it takes a lot longer to get something working on linux than it does in windows, any tips?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted too (which links to packaging videos and so on)
<jono> thanks dholbach
<jono> iamskillz, if you are asking for tips on how to get started, I would recommend spending a lot of time learning and practising
<jono> have a computer set up with Ubuntu and just try things
<jono> this is how I got started - I just installed things, and tried to make them work
<jono> when I started in Linux I performed experiments setting up networks, mail services, firewalls, compiling software and more
<jono> the world is your oyster
<jono> in terms of how we can get companies to support it, that is a much wider questions
<jono> question
<jono> we do have many companies who provide support for Ubuntu, and Canonical is one of them - see http://www.canonical.com/services/support for more
<jono> <tpfennig> QUESTION: How you define "local". Country or city?
<jono> tpfennig, it varies - most typically it is either a country or a state
<jono> there are some city teams though
<jono> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList provides a list of them so you can see how the naming varies
<jono> a LoCo team typically services a catchment area that is manageable for physical events, when that is too large, multiple LoCo teams emerge
<jono> <mrasty> QUESTION: how about creating a ubuntu application store and try to get the big video game players to develop games for it
<jono> mrasty, great idea, but the problem is that it relies on the video game makers producing games for Ubuntu which many currently are not doing
<jono> while many new games are coming out for Ubuntu, there is still a long road ahead, and many games studies cannot justify the cost of supporting the Linux platform
<jono> I am confident this will change as our platform continues to mature
<jono> greg-g> QUESTION: Where is the "How to record a hardcore metal album using Ubuntu" Open Week session?
<greg-g> \m/
<jono> greg-g, hah! I am not sure many people would want to get along to that :-)
<jono> but they should \m/
<jono> <ball> QUESTION: Does it help spread acceptance of Ubuntu, and the community as a whole, when hardware vendors work with Canonical to ship Ubuntu as an OS option?
<jono> ball, totally
<jono> in a perfect world people would never see the install
<jono> installer
<jono> people would buy hardware and Ubuntu is ready to roll
<jono> as we grow in popularity and more and more vendors ship Ubuntu, the impact it has is huge
<jono> I now regularly see people running Ubuntu on trains which is incredible, and I have also seen many running it on laptops at airports
<jono> again, we have much more to do, but the impact of these machines that ship Ubuntu is huge
<jono> DKcross> QUESTION: jono said that they are expanding on a world wide scale, but in our El Salvador we've been asking for over a month for resources like the loco hosting, wiki and the planet site on rt.ubuntu.com. What are your plans on how to bring better support for the community?
<jono> DKcross, earlier I mentioned scale, and one area in which we have struggled a little is in tending to all of the requests from locos for resources
<jono> much of the reason for this is that there soooo many of them
<jono> it is getting better, but be a little patient
<jono> <zaidka> QUESTION: How do I get in touch with the LoCo team in Syria. There's no website, email, irc channel.
<jono> zaidka, not sure of that specific team, but check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and if you don't see that, Google the team
<jono> <ball> QUESTION: if a LoCo seems to be one person, and that person gets hit by a bus, what's the drill?
<jono> ball, this hasn't happened much but typically the team first mourns that persons loss, and then they vote for a new member
<jono> they typically vote for a new member
<jono> this does vary from team to team thoughy
<jono> <Odd_Bloke> QUESTION: Regarding (1), is there not a tension between online communication within a LoCo and within the wider Ubuntu community?
<jono> Odd_Bloke, not that I am familiar with :-)
<jono> <ball> QUESTION: This relates to you work Jono. Do you encounter much friction between national/provincial LoCos and strong city LoCos within them?  If so, how do you deal with that?
<jono> ball, not really, there has been some conflict between teams that share the same area, but usually these teams eventually work more and more together
<jono> I always like to encourage teams to work together as opposed to work against each other - there is no sense in competing for users
<jono> in cases where there is a conflict, I recommend you get in touch with the LoCo Council
<jono> <FiveAcres> QUESTION:  Is there a FAQ about how to report a bug when apport isn't involved?
<jono> FiveAcres, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs
<jono> <Ireyon> QUESTION: The industry in common does not see any chance in programming hardware drivers for linux, how does this currently develop? And is there a chance to get more factories to to that?
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<jono> there is a huge amount of driver development happening in the community and many companies also produce drivers
<jono> we are seeing more hardware makers create drivers and when this doesn't happen larger integration companies tend to do this
<jono> I think that as Linux spreads further and further afield we will see more drivers developed
<jono> fortunately most hardware seems to work great with Linux these days
<jono> goshawk> QUESTION: What can i do to improve an ubuntu LoCo if the ubuntu spirit of that loco is missed? For "missed ubuntu spirit" i mean that most of the answers of the Loco are arrogant without any reason.
<EragonJ> .
<jono> goshawk, I think the first step is in encouraging an atmosphere that maintains respect - we do this through encouraging behaviour that is positive but not accepting people being rude to each other
<jono> ok, one more
<jono> <tpfennig> QUESTION: How did the Jaunty launch went so far? I think intro of new FUSA applet was bad idea. Nobody I met who already knew Ubuntu liked it.
<jono> tpfennig, from what I have seen this has been a great release - the developers who created it seem to feel that this is one of the best releases that we have done and the responses so far seem to be that it is working smoothly and upgrades went really well
<jono> personally, I am really happy with it
<jono> I upgraded a bunch of machines and upgraded my dad's laptop and it was great
<jono> time will tell over the coming weeks, but I think we are off to a great start
<jono> ok, I am done
<jono> thanks so much folks!
<jcastro> woo, thanks jono
<jono> have a great week!
<imbrandon> thanks jono
 * dholbach hugs jono
 * dholbach hugs jcastro
<jcastro> ok everyone, take a minute for a break, and then I'm going to all the new features of ubuntu 9.04!
<dpm> thanks jono!
 * Ireyon claps
 * thegrieve cheers
<dayo> thanks jono
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1600 UTC: What's new in 9.04 || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<mib_7yxsixa0> nice :)
<tango> thanks jono!
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> let's get started
<jcastro> Hi to all 266 of you!
<jcastro> I am going to go over some new features in Ubuntu 9.04 that might be interesting to you
<jcastro> and then open it up for some questions.
<jcastro> First off, this is our 10th release of Ubuntu!
<jcastro> This is version 9.04, code named Jaunty Jackalope
<jcastro> The version number is derived from the year and month it was released. So 9.04 is 2009, 4th month.
<jcastro> Ubuntu releases every 6 months
<jcastro> so the next version will be 9.10, and so on
<jcastro> Let me throw some links at you to refer to
<jcastro> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/
<jcastro> this is the general tour, the slick flashy thing we put on the homepage
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes
<jcastro> and those are the release notes, with things like errata, known broken things and workarounds, etc.
<jcastro> http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/904overview
<jcastro> here is a more technical overview
<jcastro> ... and, here is a review from Ars Technica: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/04/the-jackalope-arrives-ubuntu-904-officially-released.ars
<jcastro> since Ubuntu releases every 6 months, each release always brings something new
<jcastro> the main desktop part of Ubuntu is called GNOME, this is your desktop, panels, etc.
<jcastro> if you run Kubuntu the desktop is called KDE.
<jcastro> KDE and Kubuntu will be covered later today with Jonathan, so I'll go over the default installation
<jcastro> XFCE and Xubuntu will be covered this week as well
<jcastro> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.26/
<jcastro> So here are the new things in GNOME this time around
<jcastro> Ubuntu has already been shipping Brasero as a CD burner, so that is unchanged
<jcastro> since GNOME releases are more evolutationary, usually it's a bunch of little fixes
<jcastro> and little features here and there, you won't see a drastic change
<jcastro> In fact if you look at ubuntu's history: http://tuxradar.com/content/road-jaunty-look-back-ubuntus-history
<jcastro> you'll see that the desktop has evolved over time to the desktop we have today
<jcastro> <tpfennig> QUESTION: Why dont you ship thunderbird as default mailer instead of Evolution. I think thunderbirds spam handling is much smarter.
<jcastro> this is a common question
<jcastro> Evolution is the default mailer for GNOME so we ship that
<jcastro> however, Thunderbird is in "main" and is supported
<jcastro> <tpfennig> jcastro: RE: But Epiphany is default Browser of GNOME and you dont ship that?
<jcastro> Correct, this was a concious decision when ubuntu was started
<jcastro> Firefox is very popular and a prime example of the best of OSS, it's very familiar even to users who do not know about free software
<jcastro> however, people always ask about thunderbird, and it's a subject of debates on occassion
<jcastro> I think Mark actually uses thunderbird, but don't tell the evolution people that. :)
<jcastro> One very big user visible change this time around is the inclusion of Open Office 3
<axenx> salve a tutti
<jcastro> this was a long time coming, since the release of OOo3 last time was a bit late for our inclusion into 8.10
<jcastro> so now we have a nice OOo build in 9.04 thanks to chris cheney and the OOo team
<jcastro> <tgm4883> QUESTION:  Is it possible (not theoretically) to ship different software in future releases (ie, banshee instead of rhythmbox) or would the amount of work needed to be done (and upgrade breakages that may happen) make it not worth it?
<jcastro> we ship what we think the best software is for a given task.
<jcastro> during our ubuntu developer summits we sometimes have discussions when things need to be swapped out
<jcastro> for example, including brasero
<jcastro> this UDS someone is bringing up banshee, but we'll see what happens.
<jcastro> Everyone has a favorite pet application
<jcastro> what is nice is that these days we make it easier for you to swap out your favorite app
<jcastro> a few releases ago if you tried to remove rhythmbox it would remove metapackages and whatnot
<jcastro> so we're getting better at letting you mix and match more
<jcastro> QUESTION: can we get xbmc into the standard set of packages
<jcastro> I will look into that, I just tried it myself and thought the same thing
<jcastro> QUESTION: is there anything in the works, regarding moving ubuntu to py3k
<jcastro> he means python 3
<jcastro> It's on the roadmap somewhere, unfortunately I am not familiar with our toolchain right now, I do know that 2.6 is in place so hopefully 3.0 won't be too painful
<jcastro> QUESTION: how is the envy-ng integration with l-r-m going on ? i just saw the wiki page related to that yesterday, and it was very interesting to read
<jcastro> You'll have to ask tseliot. :)
<jcastro> But, I do know that I got a new card
<jcastro> and it just fired up the driver thing and installed it.
<jcastro> I have used envy in the past with good success too
<jcastro> One thing you might have noticed in this release is the new notify-osd
<jcastro> oh, one more thing, python 3 is available in universe
<jcastro> just not by default
<jcastro> So, notify osd
<jcastro> you might have noticed the little blingy popups when someone IMs you
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD
<jcastro> More information there
<jcastro> This is a canonical-driven feature that we hope to submit to freedesktop for doing notifications
<jcastro> this also ties into our messaging-indicator, which queues up when people IM you or send you a tweet or whatever
<jcastro> the entire thing is meant to improve the workflow of your notifications
<jcastro> right now we're calling all this new work "ayatana"
<jcastro> you will want to ask Mark about it tomorrow. :)
<jcastro> QUESTION: how do you feel the final release of 9.04 met the goals of the UDS design / requirments for 9.04 at conception
<jcastro> I am very happy with this release
<jcastro> there has been some problems with the -intel driver compositing performance
<jcastro> but that will be fixed with an update, and our X team guys and intel have been working very hard to fix this
<jcastro> <mrasty> question: if you are ok with adding xbmc how about winedoors, playonlinux and ubuntu tweak !
<jcastro> The list of new apps to add never gets shorter, getting something into ubuntu depends on getting someone to care about packaging it, fixing bugs, working with upstream, etc.
<jcastro> but we do our best
<jcastro> QUESTION: one of the features of gnome 2.26 is integrated finger print support http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.26/#rnusers.aboutme
<jcastro> this doesn't seem to be included in jaunty
<jcastro> I am willing to bet the drivers aren't packaged or something
<jcastro> I will look into it at UDS and ask around and see what we can do
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why integrate some PPAs into a "Click and Run"-like Appstore so that people get newer Apps for older releases more easily
<jcastro> There are some specs out there about making PPAs easier to install, like via one click or whatever
<jcastro> however those are still open discussions, you'll want to keep track of those here:
<jcastro> (one sec)
<jcastro> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-karmic
<jcastro> QUESTION: the new notify-osd  is is suppose to notfy about a USB stick being plugged in or just open a file broswer
<jcastro> kenvandine_wk: Do you know this one?
<kenvandine_wk> that isn't a notify-osd thing, not directly
<kenvandine_wk> it should just open
<jcastro> (Also, those of you with more questions about the messaging indicator, kenvandine_wk will have a session on 1500UTC this wed.)
<kenvandine_wk> there is a bug about that :)
<Jebus> QUESTION: back to open office. how do you see the oracle-sun-deal? will open office suffer as larry ellison isn't known for being a friend of OSS?
<jcastro> Jebus: questions in -chat please, see topic
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why is 2D rendering in all Linux distros (including Ubuntu) considerably slower than in windows
<jcastro> probably crappy drivers. :-/
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why is new version of tor(0.2.0.34) not in universe?
<jcastro> There was a call in ubuntu-devel for someone to help maintain Tor
<jcastro> but unfortunately I don't think anyone has stepped up to care for the package.
<jcastro> If anyone is interested they can stay for daniel's session in 30 minutes on how to get involved. :)
<ikonia> jcastro: noted, that your lacking the tor maintainer, I'll speak to daniel
<maco> jcastro: someone did step up
<jcastro> ah ok, maco fill us in please!
<maco> im searching my email archives
<jcastro> heh ok, just chime in whenever ...
<jcastro> Let's talk about ubuntu server for a bit
<jcastro> my favorite new feature of ubuntu server is called screen-profiles
<maco> Surfaz Gemon Meme said they'd maintain it
<jcastro> which lets you set up a nice screen session that launches by default if you want
<jcastro> In 2 hours Dustin Kirkland will discuss screen-sessions, so if you are interested stick around for that
<jcastro> The ubuntu server blog is the best place to get information about what is going on in server land:
<jcastro> http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/
<maco> they also said they were new to packaging, and Daniel Chen said he'd help out
<kirkland> 1.5 hours, jcastro ;-)
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> Also, for those of you using ubuntu in an active directory environment we have likewise open 5 which is a nice gui way to add desktops to an AD, and a CLI tool for your servers
<jcastro> QUESTION: I came late so skip if it has been discussed before, what is being done to improve the state of audio playback and record on ubuntu with regards to pulse-audio?
<jcastro> I am surprised no one asked this before!
<jcastro> We have been working hard to make this work for as many people as possible
<jcastro> crimsun has been doing a lot of work on this, unfortunately there are still some cases where it's not so good.
<maco> he's dtchen now
<jcastro> however, canonical is looking to hire someone to work on sound specifically
<jcastro> so if you're a C hero or something apply for the job
<jcastro> another thing I like about ubuntu server is the virtualization stuff
<jcastro> we have a package called "python-vm-builder"
<jcastro> which is a little script that let's you create VMs on the fly very quickly
<jcastro> so it should be useful for sysadmins out there that need to deploy lots of VMs with different requirements
<jcastro> and the last bit I want to talk about ubuntu server is Eucalyptus
<jcastro> eucalyptus is a management tool for cloud-based computing
<jcastro> so with ubuntu-server and eucalyptus you can set up your own cloud without having to give your data to other people.
<jcastro> You can find out more about eucalyptus here: http://eucalyptus.cs.ucsb.edu/
<jcastro> QUESTION: could PPA get verified that they will not CRACK your computer then ???? some crazy script ????
<jcastro> you need to trust the ppa you enable
<jcastro> for example, I would enable a PPA of a person I know with their key, but not a random one. It's up to you.
<jcastro> QUESTION: do things like python-vm-builder get backported to LTS?
<jcastro> some things do
<jcastro> I know there are PPAs out there for some things like screen-profiles, please ask during the server intro session later today, someone will be able to answer your question
<jcastro> ok moving on
<jcastro> are there any areas of ubuntu that you want to know what's new?
<jcastro> QUESTION: what is a PPA
<jcastro> good question!
<jcastro> a ppa is a personal package archive, which is a repository where people can put newer software or software not in ubuntu
<jcastro> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas for more info
<jcastro> people are asking about kubuntu and UNR, there will be sessions on those this week (as well as xubuntu)
<jcastro> however, this is the first release where we have a full standalone UNR image
<jcastro> before you had to install normal ubuntu and then UNR on top of it, now we just have one image, which is nice
<jcastro> <gregknicholson> It's currently very awkward to import PPA keys?pasting text into a file, saving it, importing that. QUESTION: Why doesn't Launchpad just publish the key file, and Ubuntu be set up to do the Right Thing? by default?
<jcastro> PPAs were originally for developer-only stuff
<jcastro> it's only been relatively recently where normal people want to play with them
<jcastro> Someone asked about this earlier, the best thing to do is watch the specs to see what is coming down the pipe
<jcastro> also, on friday at 1500UTC Celso will be giving a PPA session
 * jpds points at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-app-store
<jcastro> so you can ask him all these questions about PPAs and keys.
<jcastro> QUESTION: rephrased what do you feel is the ubuntu value added for 9.04 on the desktop platform
<jcastro> ok, hand wavy question.
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> I think the value we bring is to bring all the interesting things upstream to users
<jcastro> for example, before Ubuntu I had to build new GNOME with jhbuild or garnome
<jcastro> at the time no one was really pushing out releases every 6 months with all the goodies
<jcastro> so that's what I think the value is
<ikonia> can I expand on that ?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> QUESTION: Any work being done for improving Gnome performance and responsiveness. It's sometimes laggy for no apparent reason and this has been the case since forever. Windows always feels smoother and more responsive
<ikonia> while I %100 take the point that the 6 month release cycle brings solid core upstream development to the desktop platform, and there are few other distros moving with such rapid release cycle, is it also not a double edged sword that the 6 month release cycle expects a full update to a desktop every 6 months to stay current and this work is not backported to LTS ?
<jcastro> yes, of course, it's a comprimise sometimes
<ikonia> thank you
<jcastro> sometimes I get frustrated with an older PC that I have on LTS
<jcastro> and I want some new bling on it
<jcastro> but on the other hand I've deployed ubuntu desktops at a university before
<jcastro> and there is nothing nicer than a nice, boring, LTS desktop. :)
<ikonia> jcastro: I must pick this up with you at a more offtopic junture
<jcastro> we think that the LTS/normal release balance is a good place to be.
<jcastro> for sure. :)
<jcastro> QUESTION: Any work being done for improving Gnome performance and responsiveness. It's sometimes laggy for no apparent reason and this has been the case since forever. Windows always feels smoother and more responsive
<jcastro> hmmm, my desktop doesn't do this, but there are some places where gnome could use more performance work
<jcastro> we did some work on login time this cycle around, and hopefully with new things like dconf from upstream gnome login time will be improved.
<jcastro> QUESTION: Once Intel is finished with the migration to UXA and DRI2, who long until world domination? ;)  (Smooth & fast Xorg is the only thing missing .. well maybe apart from 100% working open source flash
<jcastro> he's referring to this: http://keithp.com/blogs/Sharpening_the_Intel_Driver_Focus/
<jcastro> which everyone with intel video should read.
<jcastro> Not long hopefully, now that the worst is behind us it should get better
<jcastro> we will have people from Intel at UDS to discuss this specifically, so look for good things next cycle.
<jcastro> <jtholmes> Question dont take this as a disparaging comment but I believe I could personally convert more Windows users to Ubuntu if the sound, video drivers and video presentation apps were more solid. Do I stand alone on this one.
<jcastro> yes, of course.
<jcastro> QUESTION: what aspect of the 9.04 release stands out to you as a sales point, what is the showcase
<jcastro> not 9.04 specific, but I still think wubi is the greatest tool for people to try ubuntu
<jcastro> I am trying to think of what I like best in 9.04, probably a bunch of little things, not one thing
<jcastro> I think this is a very solid release, so far the indications show that people haven't been having too many problems
<jcastro> once the intel driver stuff gets fixed we'll be in great shape!
<ikonia> intel is void, it's known about
<jcastro> QUESTION: What's Ubuntu's plan for adopting gnome-shell and Gnome 3? If all goes to plan Gnome 3.0 will be Gnome 2.30 = Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. Is Gnome 3 too big a change to take in an LTS release (as KDE 4.0 was for Hardy)?
<jcastro> First off, we will be shipping GNOME 3, it's just a question of when
<jcastro> right now the LTS version hasn't been announced (though 10.04 is probably a good guess)
<jcastro> Also, we're not sure if 2.30 will be 3.0 or if it will be delayed or whatever
<jcastro> we're having this discussion at UDS, and also people from our desktop team will be attending the desktop summit this summer
<maco> jcastro: mark did says 10.04
<jcastro> so by then we should know
<jcastro> ok then!
<tgm4883> jcastro, http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/146
<tgm4883> whoops, wrong channel
<jcastro> for sure though, we are dedicated to bring the gnome 3 experience to people
<chrisi1512> np
<somnoliento> 5 minute warning
<jcastro> actually, now that I think of it, boot time is  my favorite feature
<jcastro> I have an intel SSD and I have a boot chart of 7 seconds flat. :)
<czajkowski> jaunty does seem to boot a lot faster now
<jcastro> ok, I'll take one more question
<jcastro> QUESTION: What would be the easiest way to start developing programms for the gnome/Ubuntu environment?
<jcastro> For GNOME programs you should try to link up with the GNOME Love folks
<jcastro> or find something broken and go fix it
<jcastro> for Ubuntu stick around for the next session. :)
<jcastro> ok, well, we covered some new features and random questions, but it was fun and I hope you learned something
<jcastro> since today is monday most of the sessiosn will be intros
<ikonia> jcastro: enjoyed, thank you
<jcastro> Next up will be daniel holbach with ubuntu development!
<dayo> jcastro: thanks a lot :-)
 * dholbach hugs jcastro
<dholbach> jcastro: well done!
<dholbach> let's take a quick break everybody :)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1700 UTC: Doing Ubuntu Development  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<dholbach> OK my friends... let's get going!
<dholbach> Welcome to "Doing Ubuntu Development"!
<dayo> hi
<dholbach> my name is Daniel Holbach, I live in Berlin, Germany and I love working with the Ubuntu Development community
<dholbach> I hope after my talk you'll all feel the same :-)
<Tesla|Home> :)
<dholbach> you all know how it works already: if you have questions, please do ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix your questions with QUESTION:, ie:
<dholbach> dholbach: QUESTION: What is your dog's name?
<dholbach> in this session I hope to give you all a good overview about how Ubuntu development works, how to best get involved, who to ask, when to do what and hopefully all the information makes sense too :-)
<dholbach> alright... this session is not going to be a hands-on session, if you want hands-on packaging training, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training (every Thursday)
<dholbach> the next one is going to be:
<dholbach> 30th April, 06:00 UTC: dholbach, Getting Started with Ubuntu Development
<dholbach> so let's start off with the ways on how you can learn more about Ubuntu Development, Packaging and so on
<dholbach> I named one option already: Packaging Training IRC Tutorials
<dholbach> they happen in #ubuntu-classroom too, every Thursday, so mark them in your calendars
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted it the one page you have to bookmark
<dholbach> because it links to all information you're going to need again
<dholbach>  - the Packaging Guide
<dholbach>  - the Ubuntu Development documentation (processes, teams, tools, etc.)
<dholbach>  - the MOTU Videos (hands-on training)
<dholbach>  - tasks to start working on
<dholbach> I'm a fan of "recipe style" documentation, so maybe you'll like  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes  too
<dholbach> as you can see from above: it's not going to work out if you're not willing to read a bit and find out for yourself
<dholbach> but luckily luckily luckily there's not just documentation, there's people too :-)
<dholbach> we have quite a number of initiatives where you can get in touch with people who are doing Ubuntu Development already
<dholbach>  - the IRC Packaging Training sessions I mentioned above
<dholbach>  - Ubuntu Developer Week (just like Ubuntu Open Week, but only Developer + QA material!)
<dholbach>  - ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com - a mailing list where you can ask all your questions - sign up here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu-mentors
<dholbach>  - there's the MOTU IRC channel: #ubuntu-motu - please join there and ask your packaging / development questions - it's always great to hang out there, and there's ALWAYS somebody awake :-)
<dholbach>  - there's the MOTU Mentoring
<dholbach> <maco> dholbach: QUESTION: is there a way to get on a list of available mentors-seeking-mentees or vice versa?
<dholbach> maco: just get in touch with the MOTU Mentoring Reception, they'll help you find a Mentor
<dholbach> ... although a Mentor is not strictly necessary and you can usually cope quite well asking people in the MOTU channel or on the mailing list :)
<dholbach> <Tesla|Home> QUESTION: is it possible to earn living developing ubuntu?
<dholbach> Tesla|Home: it is - there's http://www.ubuntu.com/employment/
<dholbach> there's quite a number of Ubuntu-related jobs on there and I expect it to become more
<dholbach> also I expect other companies, at some point in the future, to start looking for Ubuntu engineers and if you're a skilled Ubuntu developer that's definitely going to be a plus
<dholbach> when I started working on Ubuntu, I did it because I *IMMENSELY* enjoyed it - I enjoyed the people, I enjoyed helping out, I enjoyed getting things done and I enjoyed learning things
<dholbach> <dayo> dholbach: QUESTION: other than Python and C, what other languages play a substantial role in ubuntu dev?
<dholbach> dayo: I think we have code in Ubuntu written in any language imaginable, but C, C++, Perl, Python are most common, I'd say - I'll get back to the "Do I need to know all these languages or what?" part of the question in a bit
<dholbach> <RoAkSoAx> dholbach, QUESTION: regarding to developer jobs, are there any entre level positions or internships
<dholbach> RoAkSoAx: I know Canonical has offered them in the past, but I'd need to find out more about current practise - can you drop me a mail and I'll get back to you about it?
<saketh> what is 1700 UTC in pacific time?
<dholbach> saketh: run     date -u   in a terminal and it'll tell you
<dholbach> saketh: can you ask all other questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please?
<saketh> i m using widows rite now
<Tesla|Home> 10am, saketh
<dholbach> <artir_> QUESTION: What are the differences between developing specifically for Ubuntu or doing so for  generic GNOME?
<saketh> ok tahnx!
<dholbach> artir_: a lot of work that goes into Ubuntu was done by software authors (upstream) who decided to solve a problem for all kinds of users, Ubuntu Developers often have to integrate those efforts into Ubuntu (packaging, making it work with default configuration, fixing bits here and there, etc.)
<dholbach> I'll talk a bit about upstream development and ubuntu development in a bit
<dholbach> <jtholmes> QUESTION: dhobach is there anything like cscope for python
<dholbach> jtholmes: I'm sorry - I don't know
<dholbach> Ok... I'll get back to some bits I wanted to talk about now - continue asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> one of the most important things determining what we do is the release schedule
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseSchedule
<dholbach> there you can see the release schedule for Karmic (9.10)
<dholbach> I'll go through this pretty quickly
<dholbach> the first third of the cycle is devoted to getting things set up, planned and merge with upstreams
<dholbach> that it's all in green is a bit misleading... "green" rather indicates "everything goes" than "everything's working and great"
<dholbach> so I wouldn't encourage my mom to run Karmic in the first third of the cycle :)
<dholbach> a lot of the development planning happens at UDS, which this time is going to happen in Barcelona. all discussions will be available through icecast and the specifications (outcomes of the discussion sessions) will be on the wiki afterwards
<dholbach> it's not only Canonical people meeting there, but we invite a lot of Ubuntu developers there, it's basically open to anybody
<dholbach> ah... we also invite upstream developers too
<dholbach> to get good input for the planning of the cycle
<dholbach> then there's a lot of "merging" going in the first third - what does that mean?
<dholbach> basically if we have package A with version 2.3.4-5ubuntu2 it means
<dholbach>  - upstream developers release software A version 2.3.4 on their website
<dholbach>  - the Debian maintainer released 5 different revisions of that in Debian
<dholbach>  - the Ubuntu developers added two changes on top of that
<steveydoteu>  
<dholbach> if we're in the green phase of the release cycle (so just after opening a new release) it could well be that Debian already has 2.3.6-1 of that software A in their archive
<dholbach> so we need to decide do we still need those two changes we made? if yes, we need to "merge" them and get to 2.3.6-1ubuntu1
<dholbach> also if they're not really Ubuntu specific, we want to forward them to the Debian maintainers (or even the Upstream developers), so we don't have to carry that "delta"
<dholbach> let's say we have package B version 1.2.3-2 in our released Ubuntu and now there's 1.2.4-1 in Debian
<dholbach> we will get B automatically "sync"ed from Debian
<dholbach> if there's no Ubuntu changes, we can simply overwrite the Ubuntu package
<dholbach> so what does that mean? Do we just copy the .deb files? :-)
<dholbach> no... we pull the source and it gets built in the Launchpad build daemons
<dholbach> <goshawk> QUESTION: Debian Import is with debian sid?
<dholbach> goshawk: yes, "Debian Sid" or "Debian unstable"
<dholbach> <blfgomes> dholbach: QUESTION: How does the "forwarding to upstream" work?
<dholbach> blfgomes: for most upstream projects (Debian too) you file a bug report and attach the bug there
<dholbach> I'll get to "working with upstream" in just a sec
<dholbach> to sum it up: in the first part of the release cycle we pull in new code, so we can solve all the bugs in the 2nd and 3rd half :)
<dholbach> in the second half of the release (yellow and orange) we work hard on getting features implemented, that's following the specifications we agreed on at the Ubuntu developer summit
<dholbach> also we're trying to make Ubuntu generally more solid (bigger transitions usually happen in this phase) and uploading new upstream code is absolutely fine, it's just that the automatic import is stopped
<dholbach> after feature freeze (features must have landed) you can see a new freeze being introduced like every week
<dholbach> that's the time where we only fix bugs and do testing testing testing
<dholbach> also you will need to talk to the release team if you want to get huge untested changes into Ubuntu :-)
<dholbach> <goshawk> QUESTION: is Partner Upload Deadline the deadline for packages in REVU?
<dholbach> goshawk: no, I think it's about software from partners of Canonical
<dholbach> goshawk: we try to have all the NEW packages - so stuff that never was in Ubuntu before (which is what REVU is for) in Ubuntu by Feature Freeze
<dholbach> goshawk: that's done so we can concentrate on fixing stuff afterwards
<dholbach> <maqifrnswa> QUESTION: Is "automatic import" a script, or does that mean packages can be added manually to launch pad directly if there were no ubuntu revisions in the previous release?
<dholbach> maqifrnswa: the "automatic import" is a script yes, which is semi-automatically triggered by our archive admins
<dholbach> <teknico> QUESTION: what if a newer upstream version is not in Debian yet? Or if the program is not in Debian at all?
<dholbach> teknico: we're free to update or package as we like in Ubuntu, but the better coordinated with others, the better
<dholbach> if we diverge from either upstream or Debian, it's always kind of a risk and additional work
<dholbach> <RainCT> dholbach: < zepo> question: ubuntu pulls packages from debian sid, but some packages have a newer version than in debian right? where do they come from?
<dholbach> zepo: right... as I said above: in some cases we decide to "rush ahead" and upload newer versions of Ubuntu - in a lot of cases this happens because Debian and Ubuntu are in different stages of their release cycles, so sometimes we can steam ahead in some cases Debian can :)(
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> everything that we want to change in a release that's already out has to go through the !sru process
<dholbach> oh.. I thought that thing worked
<dholbach> !sru
<ubot2> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<dholbach> ah yes - the stable release updates process
<dholbach> it's more rigorous and only well-tested and REALLY important stuff gets into -updates
<dholbach> so to sum up a few things we talked about above.... what could you work on if you were interested?
<dholbach>  - merging / updating packages (early in the cycle)
<dholbach>  - work on NEW software (needs-packaging bugs) - this can be a lot of work and often isn't trivial (also early in the cycle)
<dholbach>  - fix bugs! (always)
<dholbach>  - one thing I really really like is "Bugs fixed elsewhere"
<dholbach> if you check out https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<dholbach> you will find a link called "12345678 bugs fixed elsewhere"
<dholbach> those are bugs that are present in Ubuntu, were forwarded to the software authors and were fixed in that project
<dholbach> personally that's my favourite because it can be easy and also it shows quite well how we interact in the bigger open source picture
<dholbach> (side note: if you like this topic, don't miss: Thu 30 Apr 21.00 UTC Upstream Bug Workflow - Jorge Castro)
<dholbach> there meeeeeeellions of upstream software projects on the one hand (25000+ packages in Ubuntu if I remember correctly)
<dholbach> and there's 10+ meeeeeeeeellions of Ubuntu users on the other hand
<dholbach> Ubuntu developers and Ubuntu QA people are somewhere in between :-)
<dholbach> so a good way of contributing is what Jorge will talk about: working on a bug, trying to reproduce it, get all necessary information and forward it to the software authors
<dholbach> it's not about "dumping work on them", it's about getting upstream software well-tested, get information and working together with them to get it resolved
<dholbach> if you're interested in a piece of software, you can act as an ambassador
<dholbach> and you directly get in touch with a lot of people:
<dholbach>  - happy users
<dholbach>  - happy other Ubuntu developers and Bugsquad members
<dholbach>  - happy upstream developers
<dholbach>  - happy maintainers of other distributions
<dholbach> and you can make them even happier by helping out and making sure that all necessary information is in the right places :-)
<dholbach> if you want to see how happy people can get:
<dholbach> this is what happened to me at the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Prague:
<dholbach> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jzGIaZcGcM
<Gordon-> lol
<Gordon-> oops sorry
<dholbach> sometimes it's a bit of detective work to find the right mailing list, to find the good patch that fixed the problem we had, but if you like to learn, like to talk to people, like to get involved, have a knack for making things work and test things properly, this is an awesome place to start
<dholbach> and that's also my answer to the question above about "having to know C and Python, etc.": you don't have to
<dholbach> if you have the skills I mentioned above, you can take one step after the other and learn together with others
<bubu1uk> Gordon-: jumping between windows? ;)
<dholbach> so how do you get things uploaded into Ubuntu if you're not an Ubuntu developer yet?
<dholbach> you basically attach your patch to a bug report and subscribe the "sponsors team" who will review your patch, test it, sign it with their GPG key and upload it to the build dameons for you
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess has more info about it
<dholbach> that's linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted too
<dholbach> once you've been through that process a couple of times and people start telling you how awesome you are, you should consider applying for Ubuntu developer status :-)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers has more info about that
<dholbach> that's linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted too :-)
<dholbach> <Ireyon> QUESTION: what about dropping the release schedule for LTS releases if necessary? I mean, testing an LTS is more important than releasing it exactly 6 month after the previous release. Dapper for example did also take 2 months longer.
<dholbach> Ireyon: dapper was the only release where we decided to put 6 weeks more work into it, you're right
<dholbach> Ireyon: we have regular meetings of the release team on IRC where they see where and how things stand, so they evaluate the situation constantly and regularly
<dholbach> Ireyon: we try hard to stick to the schedule and up until now we did quite well
<dholbach> <maqifrnswa> QUESTION: You mentioned bug squad, MOTU, other packagers, people working on upstream bugs, and I'm sure there are tons of other positions - is there an "entry level" developer role that is in particularly high demand?
<dholbach> maqifrnswa: I wouldn't really call them positions - it's more like a role or an activity, sometimes you dive deep into bug reports to find out more about what's broken and what you want to fix, sometimes you just merge 10 packages you were working on in the last release
<dholbach> maqifrnswa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to a bunch of bugs and tasks that are suitable for beginners and if you take care of a package you know well, that's even better
<somnoliento> 3 minutes warning
<dholbach> also make sure you talk to people on #ubuntu-motu so you get feedback and learn from what they're doing
<dholbach> hands up... who of you could imagine to do some Ubuntu development and help out that way? :-)
<peteresqqqo> hi
<drostie> maybe me.
<jgoguen> o/
 * maco raises hand
 * goshawk raises
<gotunandan> me
<dholbach> come on... don't be shy - I really don't bite! :-)
<blfgomes> me!
<indSpike> me too.
 * stevepearce raises both hands :)
 * ewsubach raises his hand
 * cyphermox raises hand
<logoon> raise
 * goshawk suggests to stand up and hug dholbach :)
<maco> dholbach: no, you just give Hugs Of Doom
<carthik> woof!
<dholbach> rock on... you guys are awesome and I really hope to see more of y'all soon
 * gamerchick02 raises hand
<dholbach> also make sure you're there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training - 30th April, 06:00 UTC: dholbach, Getting Started with Ubuntu Development
<jcastro> woo!
 * dholbach hugs y'all back!
<jcastro> thanks daniel!
 * kirkland high fives dholbach 
<goshawk> thanks!
<Gordon-> thanks dholbach
<jcastro> ok, next up is going to be Dustin Kirkland with screen-profiles
<stevepearce> great session dholbach, many thanks :)
<ewsubach> thanks!
<hjmf> thanks dholbach!
<jcastro> take it away kirkland!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1800 UTC: screen-profiles  || ssh guest@ec2-67-202-41-73.compute-1.amazonaws.com || password: guest || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<indSpike> thanks dholbach
<kirkland> jcastro: thank you Mr. Castro
<kirkland> alrighty .... screen-profiles!
<kirkland> so i'm going to divide this track up into a couple of small sets
<kirkland> set 1 is a brief intro
<kirkland> set 2 is a shared session demo
<kirkland> and in set 3, you'll play with this on your own systems
<kirkland> okay ... set 1
<kirkland> GNU screen is a text-based window manager
<kirkland> the Ubuntu server differs from several other server distributions in that it does not install a graphical desktop by default
<kirkland> we try to keep our server very lean and mean!
<kirkland> however, many people ask us why don't we ship a graphical desktop
<kirkland> in many cases, i actually believe that a *window manager* is actually what people want/need
<jcastro> .oO (You can listen to Dustin's interview about screen profiles on http://ubuntupodcast.net/) -ed.
<kirkland> a window manager gives you the ability to run multiple programs at the same time, in parallel, attach, detach, monitor system status, etc.
<kirkland> screen has been around for 20+ years
<kirkland> but in the default configuration, it's exceedingly difficult to customize
<kirkland> so, for Ubuntu, we've created a phenomenal little program call screen-profiles that makes screen even more useful and user-friendly
<kirkland> okay, so now for our demo ....
<kirkland> so set 2, group demo!
<kirkland> for this, you'll want to keep IRC open, where I'll explain what I'm doing
<kirkland> but you'll also want to open up a terminal window, and ssh to this system ....
<kirkland> ssh guest@guest@ec2-67-202-41-73.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> that's an instance of Ubuntu Jaunty running in Amazon's ec2
<kirkland> the password is "guest"
<kirkland> i'm going to give 60 seconds here for people to login
<jcastro> .oO (the ssh url and password are in the topic if you need to refer to them)
<kirkland> so what you're looking at is a shared screen session
<kirkland> i have write access, and everyone else has read-only access
<kirkland> for demo purposes, of course
<kirkland> you should see across the bottom of your terminal two light grey lights
<kirkland> lines
<kirkland> the top line says:
<kirkland> 0*&$ shell(guest)                                                      Menu:<F9>
<kirkland> we currently have one window open
<kirkland> (that's going to change in a moment)
<kirkland> the second line says:
<kirkland> \o/ Ubuntu 9.04                  2! 20# 0.57 2.6GHz 1.6GB,6% 2009-04-27 18:07:48
<kirkland> i'm going to explain those shortly
<kirkland> first, i'm going to launch the F9:Menu
<kirkland> and I want to show you the help menu
<kirkland> in your terminal, press F4
<jcastro> kirkland: seems like some people can't get in, maybe there's a client limit?
<kirkland> this will move your view over to the 2nd window I created
<jcastro> but keep going
<kirkland> jcastro: hmm, we have 25 people in
<kirkland> 28+ and counting
<jcastro> ok good
<jcastro> continue, sorry
<kirkland> anyone who can't see this in the ec2 instance, please run 'screen' locally
<kirkland> (which will be set 3)
<kirkland> okay, if you're in the screen session, please hit F4 to navigate to your 2nd window
<kirkland> this is sort of like alt-tab
<kirkland> okay, now, i've launched the help memu
<kirkland> menu
<kirkland> here, you can see that there are a couple of special actions bound to your F-keys
<kirkland> in our shared screen session, i've disabled them
<kirkland> but if you run 'screen' on your local jaunty system, (and choose the light profile) you should be able to use them
<kirkland> so f2 will create a new window
<kirkland> f3/f4 will go back and forth among open windows
<kirkland> f5 will reload the profile (will demo in a moment)
<kirkland> f6 will detach
<kirkland> f7 will enter scrollback/search mode
<kirkland> f9 will launch this menu
<kirkland> and f12 will lock the screen (like a screensaver for the terminal)
<kirkland> okay
<kirkland> so another thing i can do from this menu is change my profile
<kirkland> i have created a dozen or so different colored profiles
<kirkland> i like a different color profile on each of my servers
<kirkland> we're currently using the light profile
<kirkland> i'm going to change it to a different one, then hit F5 to reload
<kirkland> (this is somewhat laggy)
<kirkland> (my apologies for that)
<kirkland> okay, profile reloaded
<kirkland> now it's white on black
<kirkland> as you can see, there are other colors available, please play with them on your local setup later
<kirkland> now, let's take a look at the bottom bar
<kirkland> that's our status indicator
<kirkland> \o/ is intended to be an approximation of the ubuntu logo (3 colors)
<kirkland> followed by our current distro and release version
<kirkland> the 2! indicates that there are 2 updates available
<kirkland> 41# tells me that there are 41 user logged on :-)
<kirkland> woohoo!
<kirkland> the current load is 2.14 (changing every 2 seconds)
<kirkland> this system has a single cpu, running at 2.6GHz
<kirkland> but this also changes every 2 seconds, which is useful if you have cpu frequency scaling available
<kirkland> there's 1.6GB of memory, of which 10% is used
<kirkland> and of course, the current date and time
<kirkland> but this is only a small subset of the status items you can enable
<kirkland> this is intended to mimic gnome's applets in your gnome-panel
<kirkland> so now i'm going to toggle some status notifications
<kirkland> arch is the architecture of the system
<kirkland> the battery is useful on laptops (not in ec2, though!)
<kirkland> however, ec2-cost is very useful here!
<kirkland> so i'm going to enable that
<kirkland> as well as the hostname
<kirkland> network bandwidth might be interesting on this system
<kirkland> since so many of us are logged in
<kirkland> also, note that there's a reboot-required icon that would popup if a system updated required
<kirkland> a reboot
<kirkland> this would look like this (@)
<kirkland> so now I'm going to apply these, and refresh my profile
<kirkland> (this operation apparently takes a minute when there's 44 of you connected!)
<kirkland> okay, now we can see that this system has been up for 2 hours and 32 minutes
<kirkland> and my current bill to ec2 is $0.31 :-)
<kirkland> money well spent, sabfl ;-)
<kirkland> sabdfl, rather
<kirkland> there's a few more options here, that i'm going to skip
<kirkland> but the last one is interesting
<kirkland> "Install screen by default at login"
<kirkland> this is what I did with your guest account before you logged in
<kirkland> this is why you jumped immediately into this screen session, when you logged in
<kirkland> in fact, i enable this feature on *all* of my server
<kirkland> jcastro: okay, i'm going to pause now for questions
<kirkland> jcastro: you want to paste them here?
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> yep, one sec
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why doesn't the marketing department highlight supercool features like screen profiles for the server? Instead they say it would "further improve infrastructure management efficiencies" (buzzword bingo)
<kirkland> jcastro: hah :-)
<kirkland> jcastro: well, i accept the compliment, screen-profiles is awesome!
<kirkland> jcastro: and i hope that you, the community, can help spread the good word
<kirkland> jcastro: i'm hoping for karmic that screen-profiles is used ubiquitously on the sever
<jcastro> <peplin> QUESTION: What's the proper way to modify screen-profiles settings? I have a screenrc that I would like to use in combination with the profiles, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get rid of the top hardstatus line.
<kirkland> jcastro: that it becomes as important to the Ubuntu server as Gnome/KDE are to Ubuntu/Kubuntu
<kirkland> peplin: well, screen-profiles sources your local ~/.screenrc last
<kirkland> peplin: does it not accept overrides of that hardstatus line?
<peplin> I can override the bottom hardstatus, but seemingly not the line above that
<kirkland> peplin: if not, i can add a feature to screen-profiles that would allow you to disable/enable the window list and/or the status line\
<kirkland> peplin: please open a bug ;-)  i'll try to get that fixed for karmic
<jcastro> <qense> QUESTION: Some programs also use the F* keys. How does that work? Currently screen catches them first and they aren't processed by the program
<kirkland> qense: correct.  you can disable screen-profiles keybindings
<kirkland> everyone, back over to the shared screen session
<kirkland> see "Change keybinding set"
<kirkland> you can accept the 'common' set of keybindings (f-keys), or take none of them
<kirkland> in which case you'd need to use the bindings that screen provides, rather than our shortcuts
<kirkland> note that i did *not* use:
<kirkland> f1 -> help in gnome terminal, f10 -> menu, or f11 -> fullscreen
<kirkland> so as not to conflict with gnome-terminal
<kirkland> jcastro: any more q's?
<jcastro> https://launchpad.net/~screen-profiles/+archive/ppa
<kirkland> jcastro: ah, great point ....
<jcastro> I wanted to mention where people can get it for older versions  of Ubuntu
<jcastro> <qense> QUESTION: So actually GNU Screen is a shell wrapper giving you tabs and status indicators?
<kirkland> right, so screen-profiles is packaged and in main for Jaunty
<kirkland> however, i am providing packages for Hardy and Intrepid machines in a PPA
<kirkland> I will, perhaps, try to get it into the backports archive
<kirkland> but for now, you can use the the PPA very well
<kirkland> qense: sort of ...
<kirkland> qense: GNU screen is a "window manager"
<kirkland> qense: that has a 50+ page manpage
<kirkland> qense: really flexible, but complicated to setup
<kirkland> qense: screen--profiles is sort of a best practices configuration for screen, packaged and made easy for Ubuntu\
<jcastro> <tm> QUESTION: Should I be seeing any sort of lag with screen-profiles on vs off?
<jcastro> <tm> I'm noticing the clock will pause and then jump ahead.  Text input is slower than with stock screen
<kirkland> tm: on your local instance, or on the ec2 shared screen?
<kirkland> tm: or on some other server you have access to?
<jcastro> his linode
<tm> ^^
<tm> I understand there's going to be some hit, but it seems quite noticeable
<kirkland> tm: there's actually a bug fix for that in jaunty-proposed;  should make it to jaunty-updates any day now
<tm> cool
<kirkland> tm: i think it should be fixed in jaunty-updates
<jcastro> service with a smile!
<jcastro> <HoellP> QUESTION: How do I send F* keys to the remote screen session i'm viewing in my local session?
<kirkland> tm: basically, i had ionice/cpunice'd screen-profiles to the point at which there was lag;  i've disabled this in the update
<tm> ah
<tm> thanks!
<kirkland> HoellP: screen within screen?
<HoellP> yes...
<kirkland> HoellP: don't :-)  or, if you figure out how, tell me :-)
<kirkland> so to better answer HoellP's question, i do my screening like this ...
<kirkland> i open one gnome-terminal tab per server I connect to
<kirkland> so one ssh-session per gnome-terminal tab
<kirkland> and then in each ssh/tab, I run screen, with multiple windows per server
<kirkland> jcastro: okay, i'll move on to set 3 ...
<kirkland> jcastro: and take a few more questions after
<jcastro> sure!
<kirkland> so, ladies and gents ... let's try this on your own system
<kirkland> if you're running jaunty, you can just run 'screen'
<kirkland> if you're not, head over to the PPA that jcastro pasted
<kirkland> and install screen-profiles from there
<jcastro> https://launchpad.net/~screen-profiles/+archive/ppa
<kirkland> (note that the screen-profiles from that PPA is newer than the one in Jaunty, and as such includes *even more* features)
<kirkland> once the screen-profiles package is installed, run 'screen'
<kirkland> the first time you run it, it should prompt you to select a profile
<kirkland> the 'plain' profile is actually not a screen profile
<kirkland> rather, this is the system default /etc/screenrc
<kirkland> very boring, includes *none* of the features i've been discussing
<kirkland> as such, upstream, i've renamed this NONE instead of plain
<kirkland> the screen-profiles package just comes with light, dark, and black
<kirkland> 3 very simple profiles
<kirkland> install screen-profiles-extras for about a dozen other colors
<kirkland> so choose, one of those profiles, and now you're in screen
<kirkland> play with the F-keys
<kirkland> hit F2 to open a new window
<kirkland> run something in that window, maybe "top"
<kirkland> hit f3/f4 to switch back and forth between your windows
<kirkland> now, let's detach, and reattach
<kirkland> hit F6
<kirkland> that'll detach, but your program (top, etc) will still be running the background
<kirkland> i use this *all the time* when I'm doing something like a big wget, or rsync
<kirkland> now, reattach with "screen -r"
<kirkland> you should be back in your screen session
<kirkland> now, let's try scrollback mode
<kirkland> (i'll demo this in the ec2 session for anyone not doign this locall)
<kirkland> if you're in the ec2 session, go to the leftmost window
<kirkland> if you're doing this locally, hit F7
<kirkland> this will put you in a vi-like mode scrolling and searching
<kirkland> you can type terms and search just like vi
<kirkland> also, this is per-window
<kirkland> so if you hit f4, and go to your next window, and enter scrollback, you're scrolling for that window
<kirkland> also, try F9
<kirkland> you can adjust your screen-profile's colors
<kirkland> toggle status notifications
<kirkland> install screen by default
<kirkland> or uninstall screen by default at login
<kirkland> if you do enable that
<kirkland> detach (F6)
<kirkland> then ssh localhost
<kirkland> such that you login
<kirkland> you should see screen launch by default, re-attaching to your most recent screen session
<kirkland> jcastro: i'll pause again for questions ... wanna paste a few here?
<jcastro> <haliner> QUESTION: How do you set up the read-only session?
<jcastro> popular question. :p
<kirkland> haliner: ah :-)
<kirkland> that's a complicated one
<kirkland> let me get you a url ...
<kirkland> http://www.linux.com/feature/56443
<jcastro> we can perhaps blog that later or something
<jcastro> I am sure lots of people can think of creative ways to use this
<kirkland> basically, you have to make /usr/bin/screen.real setuid
<jcastro> <gQuigs> QUESTION: just closing gnome-terminal keeps screen open and running.. doing that won't break anything right?
<kirkland> then play with screen's acl's
<jcastro> <gQuigs> aka.. do we really need to manually detach
<kirkland> see http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jaunty/en/man1/screen.1.html, chacl
<kirkland> gQuigs: right
<kirkland> gQuigs: you can manually detach, if that's what you explicitly want to do
<kirkland> in fact, as you "leave" the ec2 shared screen session, that's probably the only way you can do it
<jcastro> <ktenney> does scrollback offer selection, yank, paste ...
<kirkland> ktenney: yes!
<kirkland> ktenney: see "copy" mode in http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/jaunty/en/man1/screen.1.html
<kirkland> ktenney: F7 is just a keybinding that puts you straight into copy/scrollback mode
<kirkland> jcastro: any other pending questions?
<jcastro> nope, continue
<kirkland> jcastro: cool
<jcastro> but BugeyeD say: can 'leave' by disconnecting via ssh as well: <enter>~.
<kirkland> okay ... last feature i'm going to go over
<kirkland> jcastro: BugeyeD: cool, thanks.
<kirkland> so siretart has packaged screen-profiles for debian
<kirkland> and i've heard mumblings that others are working on it for other distros too
<kirkland> but people have asked me quite a bit about screen-profiles on other linux systems
<jcastro> james wilcox has put it in opensuse
<kirkland> jcastro: righto
<kirkland> but what about ubuntu systems, where you don't have admin access, but you want to run screen-profiles?
<kirkland> aha!
<kirkland> screen-profiles-export
<kirkland> from a system where you do have screen-profiles, you can run the screen-profiles-export command
<kirkland> this will create a tarball that you can unzip on almost any linux system that has screen installed
<kirkland> and you'll get about 90% of screen-profiles functionality
<kirkland> you won't get the F9 menu command
<kirkland> (the python-newt deps aren't everywhere)
<kirkland> but you can cd ~/.screen-profiles
<kirkland> and manually edit the mostly-intuitive configuration files there
<kirkland> such as ~/.screen-profiles/status
<kirkland> that's how you turn on/off the status notifications in the bottom window
<kirkland> so that's about all i have to say
<jcastro> woo!
<kirkland> i have some new features planned for karmic
<dresi> hi!
<kirkland> or, if you use the screen-profiles PPA, you'll get this sooner ;-)
<dresi> i am from spain. Any person talnking in spanish?
<jcastro> dresi: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<dresi> ok
<kirkland> i'll take any other questions at this point
<kirkland> or turn it over to jcastro ;-)
<jcastro> ok, thanks dustin!
<jcastro> what's your blog so we can follow along?
<kirkland> jcastro: :-)  http://blog.dustinkirkland.com
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1900 UTC: screen-profiles  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, everyone take 5 before the next session
<jcastro> thanks Dustin!
<kirkland> i will be booting everyone off of ec2 now :-)
<Veeyawn> Thanks Dustin
<thegrieve>  /me cheers
<somnoliento> This was awesome! thanks!
<thegrieve> hehe
<thegrieve> thanks alot
<JFo> screen is my new favorite thing
<JFo> thanks kirkland
<kirkland> ||^o
 * kirkland takes a bow
 * gQuigs claps
<kirkland> #screen-profiles if you want to discuss further, with other members of the screen-profiles community
<jcastro> kirkland: what was the final cost of the demo?
<jcastro> according to the applet?
<kirkland> jcastro: $0.42
<kirkland> (appropriate)
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> let's get started
<jcastro> I'm going to be running this session on Ubuntu Brainstorm
<jcastro> my name is Jorge Castro and I'm on the community team
<jcastro> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<jcastro> So what is brainstorm?
<jcastro> So, at it's basic level it is a website where anyone can make an account
<jcastro> and then submit ideas about things they would like to see in Ubuntu
<jcastro> People then vote on ideas they like, and ideas they don't like
<jcastro> after a while the good ideas tend to drift to the top
<jcastro> and the not-so-good ideas (like mine), end up in the gutter. :)
<jcastro> every cycle I do a sum up of all the ideas in each category
<jcastro> and then I do a presentation at UDS where I outline things like "Users want foo, and bar"
<jcastro> in addition to that each category list is handed to whoever develops that feature or is responsible for that part of ubuntu
<jcastro> so for example I would hand the list of screen-profiles ideas to kirkland
<jcastro> and then he would go through them and see which ones he can implement (as an example)
<jcastro> Have any of you ever filed ideas on brainstorm?
<jcastro> or go to it on a regular basis, or participate in some way?
<jcastro> *crickets*
<JFo> I go there, but I am not able to contribute very much other than wishing I could retranslate the meanings of some of the posts
<JFo> :)
<JFo> some of them are difficult to understand
<jcastro> aha
<jcastro> so that brings up a good point
<jcastro> if you want your idea to be popular you can do certain things
<jcastro> first off, you want to make sure people can understand your question
<jcastro> especially if english isn't your strongest language, you might want to ask someone to make sure your idea is readable so you're not asking everyone why their base belongs to us.
<jcastro> another good tip is to make sure your idea is specific
<jcastro> and not so general
<jcastro> so for example a common idea that get's marked duplicate is "Ubuntu needs better hardware support"
<jcastro> this ends up being a bad idea to put on the site because that's a common problem that everyone knows about and is working towards
<JFo> how is it moderated jcastro?
<jcastro> it's like saying "Humans should enjoy breathing". :)
<jcastro> ok, so moderation
<jcastro> there are a set of moderators who read the incoming queue
<jcastro> and they +1 or -1 the idea
<jcastro> most of the time it's a duplicate and they mark it as such
<jcastro> in fact, we're also always looking for moderators
<zepo> i discovered that website yesterday and browsed through the ideas, there were a lot of good suggestions on it. i tried to vote on a few but that required an account so i didnt
<JFo> I'm interested in moderation jcastro
<JFo> or rather becoming a moderator
<jcastro> If you are interested in moderation please go here: http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com/node/44
<jcastro> and follow the directions
<JFo> thank you
<jcastro> <gregknicholson> QUESTION: I don't want yet another login to manage. Does Brainstorm work transparently with OpenID? Perhaps simple voting for ideas could also be done via OpenMicroBlogging?
<jcastro> Currently we're working on having brainstorm accept openid's
<jcastro> this is still a work in progress
<jcastro> right now it uses QA accounts (the same account you would use to test ISOs)
<jcastro> voting through microblogging would be real interesting I think
<jcastro> <zaidka> FOLLOW UP TO gregknicholson QUESTION: Can we use launchpad login credentials?
<jcastro> launchpad is an openid
<jcastro> so once that works your launchpad account should work
<jcastro> you can also follow along the latest ideas on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/brainstormnews
<jcastro> ok, so more on how to make a good idea
<jcastro> sometimes people don't know the difference between an idea and a bug
<jcastro> usually a bug is a specific problem with a program
<jcastro> for example: "My ATI driver is broken" is a specific bug
<jcastro> you would file a bug about that
<jcastro> however, something like "There needs to be a better way to install these stupid drivers" would be a good idea.
<jcastro> we have jockey that does that for you by the way, but hopefully you get the idea
<rashief> exit
<jcastro> so trying to make your idea specific and not general  would be a good idea
<jcastro> we try our best to communicate ideas from users to other projects as well
<jcastro> so for example if you have ideas about the rhythmbox music player
<jcastro> we let you search through brainstorm on ideas just specific to that
<jcastro> we also let you see which ideas are being implemented here:
<jcastro> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ideas_in_development/
<jcastro> so at least once per cycle we try to go through the ideas and mark them accordingly
<jcastro> but there are so many ideas that this doesn't scale
<jcastro> which is why depend on moderators who know more about ubuntu to mark ideas appropriately
<jcastro> with almost 15,000 ideas and 1.8 million votes, you can see why we need to "crowdsource" the sorting of ideas
<jcastro> any questions so far?
<jcastro> anyone?
<jcastro> bueller?
<jcastro> everyone must have left to go play with screen profiles.
<jcastro> ok let me talk about ideatorrent for a bit
<jcastro> http://www.ideatorrent.org/
<jcastro> ideatorrent is the open code that brainstorm is built on
<jcastro> It was primarily developed by Nicholas Deschildre for brainstorm, but is open source so you are encouraged to take it and use it for your needs.
<jcastro> <somnoliento> QUESTION: Honestly, how much weight do developers put in these ideas? what's their recepction like at UDS?
<jcastro> More than people think we do. :)
<jcastro> To be honest, a great deal of the ideas are things that end up on the roadmap anyway
<jcastro> If you were to ask any ubuntu users what their top 10 gripes are, you'd probably get a similar list. :)
<jcastro> we do however go through the ideas and try to at the minimum at least answer the person even if we end up not implementing it
<jcastro> some ideas will forever be in progress, things like hardware support, suspend/resume, wifi, etc, will always be worked on
<jcastro> Well, if you're interested in participating, check out this post: http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com/node/44
<JFo> jcastro, is it possible to break those ideas down into ideas for specific releases?
<JFo> for instance the suspend/resume...
<jcastro> we started tagging them, but could use more help
<JFo> well, I have my request in
<JFo> :)
<jcastro> <FiveAcres> QUESTION:  When I followed brainstorm, it seemed a lot of suggestions revolved around propriety codecs and file formats.  Does this effect how the suggestions are evaluated?
<jcastro> Well that depends
<jcastro> The ideas are suggestions, so if it conflicts with how Ubuntu is made right now it probably won't be implemented
<jcastro> so we ship proprietary drivers in restricted, but for example you won't see adobe reader by default due to votes on brainstorm
<jcastro> <gQuigs> QUESTION: should I be using any specific tags on my ideas
<jcastro> We don't really enforce a set of tags, I follow what other people and they make sense
<jcastro> so things like "multimedia" or "jaunty" or whatever
<jcastro> as it turns out geeks are pretty good at organizing things, even in a freeform manner
<jcastro> to go back to FiveAcres question, we do use it to acknowledge demand for things
<jcastro> <zaidka> QUESTION: Say I have an idea and i implement it on my own, do I submit it on brainstorm or submit the patch directly to launchpad?
<jcastro> good question
<jcastro> there is a field in brainstorm for you to link ideas to bugs
<jcastro> so you can link the idea, but you want to have your code in launchpad instead so someone sees it
<jcastro> also, feel free to take an idea in brainstorm and just start your own project
<jcastro> there's nothing to stop you from implementing any of these ideas and launching your own project
<eddie1> helo ek kort help
<jcastro> any other questions about brainstorm?
<jcastro> well, I encourage you to use brainstorm and consider using it, or helping contribute!
<jcastro> I guess we could mingle for a bit until the next session
<jcastro> smoke if you got em?
 * JFo applauds
 * BugeyeD coughs
<JFo> heh
 * Bodsda nods appreciation
 * thegrieve cheers
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 2000 UTC: Introduction to Kubuntu  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, I suspect the next session will be quite popular, so go dent/tweet to your friends!
<jcastro> thanks everyone for showing up today, I hope you are learning and having a good time
<Veeyawn> Thx jcastro
<zaidka> thank you jcastro
<Bodsda> Thanks jcastro
<jcastro> please send your feedback to jorge@ubuntu.com, good, bad, or otherwise. :)
<zaidka> so this ideatorrent thing has nothing to do with the pirate bay huh :P
<jcastro> heh
<ajmctaggart> lol no zaidka, different use of word "torrent"
 * eagles0513875 takes my seat in front of the room
<jcastro> so, we're 10 people short of hitting 300
<jcastro> so we need 10 more kubuntu maniacs
<eagles0513875> lol
<eagles0513875> woot
 * Zelut sits in front of eagles0513875 
<jcastro> go grab a friend!
 * eagles0513875 grabs my desk and sits just beside Zelut
<jcastro> also, at the end of each day we have a blank slot for emergency topics that people might want to do
<jcastro> so if you want to get involved let me know
<eagles0513875> :)
<SiDi> #u-c-chat is so silent all of a sudden
<eagles0513875> well not really an emergency topic but packaging and bug fixing would be interesting to go over for those of us who are new such as myself
<sirdiego> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<jcastro> sirdiego: bug stuff coming up according to the schedule
<brousch> Emergency topics? Like what Ubuntu is doing to stop the spread of the swine flu?
<jcastro> there is also a recurring packaging class on thursdays, let me dig it up
<jcastro> eagles0513875: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training
<eagles0513875> sweet will ahve to look at that sometime
<jcastro> we have a more advanced Developer Week later on in the cycle
<jcastro> for those of you that want to cut your teeth on something more hardcore
<sirdiego> jcastro: no way to dissable? if i type with / an error occurs
<Bodsda> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<Bodsda> ah crap
<jcastro> sirdiego: I think it depends on the client?
<jcastro> ask the people in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, they should be able to help you
<sirdiego> yeah that might be the point
<jcastro> feel free to make a note on the wiki if you figure it out
<jcastro> so what do you guys think of the schedule so far?
<jcastro> are the sessions interesting to you?
<jcastro> We are trying to diversify. :)
<jkernsjr> screen session was way cool!
<ajmctaggart> first time around jcastro, trying to catch as much as I can...
<ajmctaggart> UTC confuses me :)
<jcastro> jkernsjr: yeah, I think we should definately use one of those for some sessions
<eagles0513875> jcastro: make i make a suggestoin for any meetings as well as stuff in here
<jcastro> ajmctaggart: yeah
<thegrieve> +1 kudos to kirkland again here too
<jcastro> eagles0513875: sure
<robotangel> me too but I think the topics last year (packaging, pyqt, bzr) were a bit more interesting
<eagles0513875> jcastro: i was thinking we should use a teamspeak server or ther eis an open source server called mumble and client it would be cool to use thsoe for these sessions
<jcastro> robotangel: we're trying to put the developer stuff in developer week, and more intro sessions for this week
<jcastro> robotangel: so an intro week, and a more advanced week
<jcastro> eagles0513875: jono started doing streaming video from his house where you could chat with him in a room and he will answer questions, etc.
<jcastro> but yeah, that would be cool
<eagles0513875> ya thing is we need someone who has the bandwith
<eagles0513875> it can be done and a channel for all kubuntu related rooms
<robotangel> oh, I didn't know there was a developer week, thanks for the information
<jkernsjr> you can use something like tokbox?
<ikt> ustream?
<jcastro> robotangel: we have 1 openweek and 1 developerweek per cycle
<jcastro> ikt: yeah ustream is what jono used
<Ireyon> the automated desktop testing session of the developer week three months ago was interesting :)
<ikt> nice :)
<eagles0513875> jcastro: thats sweet
<robotangel> somehow I never noticed the dev-week, nice to know there is one :)
<jkernsjr> jcastro: do you need a ton of bandwidth just to do a stream on youstream?
<SiDi> jcastro, when is the developerweek beginning, please ?
<jcastro> SiDi: we haven't decided yet, probably julyish?
<jcastro> we'll announce it as soon as we know
<SiDi> jcastro, alright :) thanks
<eagles0513875> jcastro: love the name of 9.10
<eagles0513875> karmic koala
<jcastro> jkernsjr: no idea, haven't looked into it
<eagles0513875> who comes up with these names
<sirdiego> jcastro: to hide join/part msg with pidgin you must enable the same namend plugin (=
<sirdiego> but the ignore command dont work =(
<jcastro> I haven't used pidgin for irc
<jcastro> though with the messaging indicator you get a nice little queue of your messages on your panel
<jcastro> I should look at it again
<jkernsjr> jcastro: its pretty ok..just puts another tab w/ your irc chat in it
<jkernsjr> just doesn't have all the commands you might get with a full blown irc client
<sirdiego> for following the uow its good enough
<sirdiego> i hope^^
<jcastro> ~8 minutes until kubuntu!
<eagles0513875> jcastro:  it is always kubuntu
<sirdiego> :P
<Ireyon> kubuntus translations suck a little. but i didn't get the official kde translations to work... :(
<JFo> this has all of the makings of a VI versus EMACS chat ;-)
<daskreech> smeag0l: My prekious!!
<daskreech> EMACS!!!!
<smeag0l> :)
<daskreech> I'm sorry I'll go sit over there <----
<JFo> heh
<AndySpain> i have set my kubuntu to be in spanish, yet it is in spanish, English and German
<sirdiego> Ireyon: if you find a method let me know
<eagles0513875> AndySpain: file a bugreport on launchpad
<jcastro> that's a known problem
<AndySpain> dunno what are the requirement for that
<AndySpain> nor the exact link
<jcastro> translations session is friday!
<AndySpain> am new to it
<jcastro> Riddell: ready?
<Riddell> almost
<Ireyon> i'm also not too experienced, though i've started using ubuntu 2 years ago
<jcastro> ok everyone, Jonathan Riddell is going to talk about Kubuntu
<maco> AndySpain: join -chat
<jcastro> everyone please move chat to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Riddell> Good evening Friends.
<Riddell> My name is Jonathan Riddell and I'm an international freedom fighter.  I spend my days spreading freedom through the world through the medium of Kubuntu and KDE.
<Riddell> who's all here to hear about Kubuntu?
<ajmctaggart> +1
<Bodsda> +1
<hollman> +1
<gamerchick02> +1
<defrysk> o/
<thegrieve> +1
<ralf__> me too
<michel1> +1
<HoellP> everyone of course
<atoom> +1
<ceelight> +1
<Riddell> :)
<daskreech> o/
<AndySpain> jacastro Me on kubunto for 2 months now
<daskreech> *
<eagles0513875> +1
<Riddell> KDE is the original and best free software desktop.
<JFo> +1
<eagles0513875> here here
<Riddell> If you ever tried to use free software or unix as a desktop before KDE you were probably the sort of person to wear a bow tie.
<eagles0513875> hahahah thats me lol back in preschool
<Riddell> At Kubuntu we aim to create a distro that brings out the best in KDE by selecting the best apps and releasing with the latest versions.
<Riddell> We are part of the lovely Ubuntu community and follow all their values.
<eagles0513875> here here
<maco> eagles0513875: -chat please
<eagles0513875> dont mean to interrupt but not only lovely but the best distro around in my honest opinion
<Bodsda> eagles0513875: could you here here in -chat please
 * eagles0513875 zips lips
<daskreech> eagles0513875: #ubuntu-calssroom-chat
<daskreech> eagles0513875: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Riddell> Kubuntu is one of the commercially supported products by Canonical, and other companies.
<Riddell> but more importantly we are a community product made by beatiful people
<jcastro> (we've gone all day without needing moderation, please be respectful to the presenter)
<Riddell> A few years ago KDE developers had created KDE 3 and saw that it was a good product.  Stable, feature filled, good looking too.  Competed well with the competition.
<AndySpain> the class will be here or in -classroom-chat?
<Riddell> But we want world domination.  As we'd say in Ubuntu land, bug number 1.
 * eagles0513875 shhhhhhhhhh its in here
<jcastro> the class is in here, questions in -chat, please see topic
<Riddell> KDE 3 had gone about as far as the technology would allow
 * sirderigo leave, i dont like kde
<Riddell> So a lot of the base was thrown away and re-written to give us a technology platform that would be the most powerful and intuitive for developers to create rocking applications
<AndySpain> ah, ok. thx jacastro.
<Riddell> The result is KDE 4
<Riddell> That was a necessary transition, it's been quite painful but is bearing shiny blingy fruit now
<Riddell> KDE 4.0 was intended for developers and KDE fanboys.  We released an unsupported version alongside the stable 8.04 release
<Riddell> KDE 4.1 showed where we want to be and we released that with 8.10 which as the intrepid port-LTS release is intended for people who have a good idea what they're doing
<Riddell> KDE 4.2, included in our latest 9.04 Kubuntu release from last week is recommended for general users and users of previous versions will be prompted to upgrade
<Riddell> Some of the nice new features in 9.04 include improved printer setup..
<Riddell> We changed from our previous Kubuntu-specific package manager to packagekit which will allow distros to work together on the app
<Riddell> And we got rid of almost all the KDE 3 apps (OpenOffice and k3b last ones standing)
<Riddell> on top of all the good stuff that came with KDE 4.2 like the Plasma desktop with all its bling
<Riddell> also some world leading apps like Digikam got updated to KDE 4 versions with lots of improvements
<Riddell> It wasn't perfect though, there's a few too many problems with the X drivers for my liking and the new network manager is not as reliable as it should be (I hope to update the network manager soon)
<Riddell> The KDE 4 timeline fits in quite nicely with our LTS (long term support) cycle, I expect by the next LTS in 10.04 KDE 4 will be a work of perfection :)
<Riddell> There's plenty to work on, improving the package manager, finishing off our printer work, getting rid of the last KDE 3 apps as well as our ongoing tasks of packaging and fixing lots of bugs
<Riddell> let's take some questions,maybe there'll be something to counter the negativity of our friend sirdiego :)
<Riddell> 21:12 < daskreech> QUESTION: WIll Canonical be interested in putting one person on KDE4 OO.o Integration ?
<sirdiego> hu?
<sirdiego> i like kde btw im not sirderigo :D
<Riddell> daskreech: OO is looking pretty behind the times without a KDE 4 port
 * eagles0513875 raises my hand
<ralf__> you are right for the drivers, I'm using a notebook with nvidia-drivers and there are still some slow-downs using the desktop effects
<Riddell> questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat people
<Riddell> but I can't say what canonical will or won't do, I'm tempted to give it a shot myself though
<smeg0l> i'm currently running ubuntu because in kubuntu 9.04 in the gui it wount acknowledge any passwd it danish keyboard and language ?
<Riddell> but I'm pretty certain it's slow and ugly work
<Riddell> sorry sirdiego
<smeg0l> sry
<Riddell> 21:05 < kusanagi> Riddell, QUESTION: does kubuntu plans to have guest session like ubuntu does?
<Riddell> kusanagi: yes I'd love that, it just needs the patch being sorted, we did have someone assigned to it but they got busy and havn't had time
<Riddell> so volunteers welcome
<Riddell> why are there lot of installed programs that dont show in the menu? (in ubuntu appears everything)
<Riddell> dunno, sounds like a bug, file a bug and poke us until we look into it
<Riddell> 21:07 < T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: Will Canonical sponsor work on the webkit kpart to finally bring a modern browsing experience to Kubuntu?
<Riddell> questions asking for funding from canonical are unlikely to get much of an answer, I don't hold the purse strings :)
<Riddell> but I do want to look into alternatives to konqueror, it's getting too behind the times
<Riddell> we'll probably discuss that at UDS
<nixternal> such as?
<nixternal> rekonq....arora....firefox?
* maco changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 2000 UTC: Introduction to Xubuntu  || Intro to Kubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Riddell> KDE based of course so rekonq or arora or webkitkde, we'll have to evaluate them all to see if they're good enough
<Riddell> 21:10 < JFo> QUESTION: is there an easy way to set KDE up to test it on a Gnome based install without messing anything up?
<Riddell> apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<Riddell> doesn't mess up anything, just installs the programmes
<Riddell> you can use a chroot if you really want to keep everything untouched
<ralf__> arora isn't too bad, but the KDE-integration is not very god. Maybe rekonq will do, but I haven't tried it yet
<Riddell> 21:10 < Bodsda_> QUESTION: Improved printer setup is in KDE only, meaning other derivitavies wont benefit from it?
<Riddell> other ubuntu variants can use system-config-printer-kde if they like, or they can use another app, it's all just frontends to the same hal and cups logic
<ajmctaggart> Riddell, I have tried that many times, apt-get install kubuntu-desktop, the problem is, it's not as easily removed...any recommendations?
<Riddell> 21:10 < daskreech> QUESTION: how long will you keep around KDE3 libs for third party apps that are not ported yet
<Riddell> we'll keep KDE 3 libs around as long as they're needed, probably several cycles yet, but I'd like to get them off the CD, they just take up valuable room
<Riddell> 21:14 < daskreech> QUESTION: There is a LOT of things not shipped by default with Kubuntu (Wallpapers,Themes, Plasmoids etc) can we have a virtual package that does a one shot install of a fuller kubuntu experience like kubuntu-restricted-extras does?
<daskreech> That's a CD issues awell
<Riddell> one CD only has space for a basic desktop
<Riddell> I think that the Download buttons appearing on apps is a better way to install extra themes and widgets
<eagles0513875> i think what he means is as you are installing why not pull more things off the repos as one is installing
<Riddell> 21:14 < mrasty> QUESTION: what does canonical/ubuntu do for the kde project apart from producing packages ?
<Riddell> get it out infront of millions of users
<Riddell> that's out main goal and achievement
<nixternal> Riddell: time to put the answer to this question on k.o/FAQ :)
<Riddell> get high profile users like the French parliament too
<Riddell> we fill in obvious gaps that don't get worked on by upstream because they're not very sexy, like printer setup or user setup
<daskreech> viva la French!
<Riddell> but the main task of distros is to get users and hopefully bring back some of those users to contribute
<Riddell> 21:16 < alexismedina> QUESTION: when UXA will be mature in kubuntu for intel drivers?
<Riddell> dunno, ask Intel
<Riddell> 21:16 < Ireyon> QUESTION: what about shipping the Oxygen-style for GTK-applications with kubuntu? looks quite nice in my opinion.
<Riddell> we shipped gtk curve in this release because it was popular and fits in well with the KDE theming
<Riddell> if there's other themes we should look at do let us know, but really this is a GTK bug, it should ship with a decent looking theme itself
<daskreech> So file a bug on LP for that?
<Riddell> 21:17 < sirdiego> QUESTION: whats going on with the translations in kubuntu? will they be better in next kubuntu release?
<Riddell> we need more QA done on translations
<Riddell> I'd like to get people checking and double checking that it all works earlier in the cycle
<apachelogger> I am working on establishing a sensible structure to support that.
<Riddell> the process hasn't been working as well as it should mostly because of a series of smallish issues that take too long to resolve
<Riddell> and I'm not the best person to check it all since I work in English
<Riddell> having said that, there's only limited places where it's broken in 9.04 and those should all be fixable
<Riddell> if you have more problems, shout about them until we work out what's up
<Riddell> 21:17 < zepo> QUESTION: do you think Ubuntu users should switch to Kubuntu, and why?
<Riddell> I think people should use whatever they like :)  if you're a Kubuntu user you are of course already an Ubuntu user
<Riddell> although not an Ubuntu Desktop user
<ajmctaggart> member:identifier:riddell what is the best way in your opinion to spread the word about the benefits of an integrated desktop...KDE is awesome, but it takes the integration of Mac and combines it with a TON of options, similar to Windows is able to do, making a difficult environment to get into from scratch...
<Riddell> gnome is a fine desktop, although it lacks much of a long term outlook in my subjective opinion
<Riddell> the main reason I love KDE and Qt is that it's the best development platform in the world
<Riddell> users can pick whatever they're happiest with though
<Riddell> 21:18 < francisco_t> QUESTION: Some news about qt-firefox?
<Riddell> dunno, Nokia started that, you'd need to ask there
<Riddell> 21:20 < LjL> QUESTION: is there an interest in providing, when possible, native KDE applications (with support for KParts, kioslaves, and all those KDE-specific things) as opposed to merely Qt applications? I seem to see a rise of Qt-but-not-really-KDE applications since KDE 4
<Riddell> full KDE integration is best for sure
<Riddell> I don't know of many Qt only apps we use actually
<Riddell> 21:20 < atoom> QUESTION:what is mening of. zoom out in the upper right corner
<Riddell> ah well, here we come into disagreement with upstream.  it's a curious feature that which we removed in one release because it doesn't seem to do much useful
<Riddell> but the plasma people moaned so we added it back, I'm still not convinced it does much
<Riddell> hopefully it'll get integrated with the existing virtual desktops for a better experience
<Riddell> 21:21 < rufong> QUESTION:has network management in kde come a long way in your opinion? i did see you mention it as an area to improve
<Riddell> it's come a long way since we started kubuntu for sure, but it's still behind where it should be
<daskreech> Riddell: It should be able to be mapped to Desktops in future I think
<Riddell> the KDE developers working on the network manager tell me it's at a good stage now so I'll package that and hopefully get it into backports for people to use
<Riddell> 21:25 < ceelight> QUESTION: dunno? Could you please also write for "non-native-speakers"? ;)
<Riddell> sorry, "I don't know" :)
<Riddell> 21:27 < drostie> QUESTION: It's all well and good for you to talk about how you think KDE 4 is the best desktop ever, but in what particular way do you think it shines over GNOME or XFCE?
<Riddell> it's beautiful!
<Riddell> in terms of shinyness, the artwork in KDE 4 is world class, thanks to the Oxygen team at KDE
<Riddell> in terms of apps we have world leading ones like Digikam and K3b and Amarok
<Riddell> watch out for Krita too, it's going to be a photoshop killer I just know
<Riddell> 21:28 < Ireyon> QUESTION: does kubuntu have own translation teams or do they work together with the 'normal' ubuntu translators?
<ralf__> I think there is also one more thing: integration. IMHO KDE and KDE-progs are much more integrated
<Riddell> we get our translations from KDE, they get fed into launchpad where the ubuntu translation teams can fill in bits added by Kubuntu
<Riddell> 21:29 < francisco_t> QUESTION: What happend with konqueror, webkit and KHTML?
 * nixternal notes that Krfb and KRDC also rock, especially for those of you who have to maintain Windows machines at work or remotely
<Riddell> currently we use Konqueror with KHTML
<Riddell> webkit integration with Konqueror is harder than it should be so that hasn't happened as quick as we'd like
<Riddell> so we'll evaluate the options out there at UDS and decide what's best for our users
<Riddell> 21:30 < zaidka> QUESTION: if i install a gtk application on kubuntu, will the widgets look like normal qt?
<Riddell> they'll use the qtcurve theme, which integrates pretty well with the KDE oxygen theme
<Riddell> phew, I think I'm up to date on all the questions
<drostie> :D
<Riddell> keep asking in -chat, I'll get to more at the end
<Riddell> The most important part of Kubuntu is the community, because it's people like them that make free software fun
<Riddell> We mostly work over IRC in the #kubuntu-devel channel.  IRC lets us work with high communication rates from wherever we happen to be, it's almost good as being in a room together, but you don't have to get out of bed :)
<nixternal> hahaha
<Riddell> Although it's called -devel we count any contribution as devels. Helping the community, doing translations, triaging bugs, packaging of course, testing CDs, anything useful
<Riddell> Let's look at some of the community members to get an idea of what people can do when they want to difference in the world
<Riddell> apachelogger (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/16775366/moi.jpeg)
<Riddell> Not so long ago I did all the KDE packaging myself.  But for one KDE release I was away for a week, so apachelogger took over
<Riddell> He realised it was far too much work for one person to do so for the next release he used his good looks and charm to round up a team of people to package KDE and now we do it as a team effort every time
<Riddell> The team is called the Kubuntu Ninjas and we spend a week locked in a bunker before every KDE release packaging it for the development version and the released version to make sure it's available as soon as possible to our users
<Riddell> or there's JonTheEchidna (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/15880502/me-cropped-0707.png)
<Riddell> Jon is one of our best looking developers and does a lot of bug triage.  Actually he does a lot of other stuff for Kubuntu too but he's now associated with over 5000 bugs, which is a lot of traging.
<Riddell> We get a lot of bugs reports and there's a lot of different possibilities that can happen with them, only a few small number will we need to fix directly
<Riddell> Others get fixed upstream or maybe they're already fixed or maybe the program is indended to work as it does and the user is misunderstanding it (which is a bug too of course)
<Riddell> Sorting out the hundreds of bugs we get each week is what folks like JonTheEchidna do and we all owe them for that
<Riddell> one of my favoutest people is Mamarok (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/14888760/me_mugshot_launchpad_2.png)
<Riddell> User support is massively important, it's one of free software's advantages over the proprietry competition
<Riddell> Myriam recently took over as an admin of the kubuntu-users mailing list to make sure conversation is kept on topic and a welcoming and friendly atmosphere is encouraged
<Riddell> She's also on the Ubuntu Forums Beginners group who help out new users on our forums
<Riddell> User support is something we all should do to be good community citizens.  You don't have to be as good looking as Myriam to do your bit
<Riddell> finally in my sample of Kubuntu devels I picked ScottK (Scott doesn't have a photo on launchpad but I can assure you he's as good looking as any Kubuntu dev)
<Riddell> amongst other things Scott is an archive admin.  That means he has a big red button on his computer which he can press to approve or reject new packages which get uploaded (the main reason for rejection is licence quibbles)
<Riddell> He also does a lot of work approving backports and is currently moving KDE 4.2.2 to backports (yay)
<Riddell> When the archive is frozen, which we do shortly before releases to stop people uploading anything dangerous, he checks and approves any uploads
<Riddell> Sometimes we have bugs in our releases (shocking I know!) and Scott is one of the guys who can review updates to make sure they fix and don't add more bugs
<Riddell> All tasks with a lot of responsibility, if he pressed the red button at the wrong time everything could break!
<sirdiego> puh, i cant do some work for kde, i dont look as good as they ;)
<Riddell> That's just a small random sample of the sort of people involved in Kubuntu
<Riddell> They're not realated by age or gender or location but rather by a desire to help change the world in interesting ways
<Riddell> The good news is you can join them, if you're interested in Kubuntu come and say hi in #kubuntu-devel
<Riddell> You don't have to be good looking, by being part of the Kubuntu community you automatically become good looking.  You just need a desire to free the world!
<Riddell> 21:39 < Sanne> QUESTION: in case you decide against Konqueror as a browser in the future, will it still be available as a file manager for people who prefer it to Dolphin?
<Riddell> if we do go with a different browser, and I stress that's not even remotely decided, we'd keep Konqueror on the CD, it's part of what is KDE
<Riddell> 21:40 < eagles0513875> QUESTION what is being done in regards to dolphin being super slow in accessing remote shares using smbfs
<Riddell> I think the whole file sharing experience is poor, it's something I've been wanting to look at for some time, maybe one day I'll have time for it :)
<Riddell> 21:47 < drostie> QUESTION: are you using Quassel right now? Was there a range of options among which Quassel was chosen for Jaunty, or was it just the only native KDE4 IRC client around? (Everybody I've spoken to finds it rather unintuitive for the first week.)
<Riddell> actually I use irssi, I like my command line :)
<eagles0513875> Riddell: i have been using konqueror as an alternative to dolphin. another thing about konqueror is that i like the ability to open up websites as well as locations on the same machien all in one place
<Riddell> but I use Quassel too at times and it's much better now than it was six months ago when we first looked at it
<Riddell> that's because Kubuntu people like seele and others worked with the Quassel developers to end up with something quite good
<Riddell> but plenty more work to be done, the Quassel developers are very responsive though so you can try pinging them in #kubuntu-devel (or probably they have their own channel too)
<maco> Riddell: #quassel
<Riddell> oh and Kubuntu developers love hot tub parties, you don't get that with any other project :)
 * nixternal can attest to that, thankfully he hid from the pool area during UDS
<Riddell> 21:53 < T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: Which Kubuntu release will surpass Ubuntu with regards to polish and stability? ;)
 * NCommander can attest to the hot tube bit as well :-)
<Riddell> well that's subjective and could lead to flamebate if I don't answer carefully
<knome> (yes, if there's beer!)
<nixternal> Riddell: rumor has it, the intertubes say the release of Kubuntu with KDE 4.5 (that is your safe way out of that one) :)
<Riddell> KDE is the fastest moving desktop out there.  thanks to the Qt and KDE 4 platform we can do stuff that can't be done on other platforms and we can do it earier (for developers)
<ralf__> I'd be glad if it would be the same polish as Ubuntu
<Riddell> which should result in better apps and a better experience
<Riddell> as I say 10.04 (odds on to be the LTS) will be a work of perfection
<Riddell> 21:56 < daskreech> QUESTION: Is there a way to highlight artistic contributions to Kubuntu?
<Riddell> almost all our artwork comes from KDE, those Oxygen guys are just so good
<Riddell> if you ever get to meet pinheiro, buy him lots of beers
<Riddell> well I think my time is up
<dolf1074> sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop fails :(
<drostie> thanks, Riddell! :D
<Riddell> if you want to help we're in #kubuntu-devel, if you need help we're in #kubuntu
 * Ireyon hugs riddell
<hollman> Riddell, thanks!!!!
<maco> dolf1074: #kubuntu please
<sirdiego> thank you Riddell, good work (=
<Riddell> thanks for coming and enjoy the rest of Open Week
 * nixternal hugs Riddell 
 * JFo applauds
 * eagles0513875 hugs and starts dancing with Riddell
<ceelight> Thanks!
 * BugeyeD goes to shower after the hot tub incident
<cody-somerville> w00t
* maco changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 2000 UTC: Introduction to Server Team  || Intro to Xubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Riddell> Intro to Xubuntu coming up shortly, presumably with your friend and mine, cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> Thanks Riddell.
<knome> (and no talking about hot tubs)
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> Welcome everyone to the session we've titled "Intro to Xubuntu".
<knome> Feel free to ask any questions at any time on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 * JPohlmann says hello
<cody-somerville> I'm here today with some very special people from the Xubuntu team to talk to you about the Xubuntu project.
<cody-somerville> I'm going to chat a little bit and then I'm going to hand it off to the other folks with me so they have a chance to speak to you about the part of the Xubuntu project they're most passionate about.
<cody-somerville> We just released Xubuntu 9.04 last week which I'm happy to say is definitely our best release yet.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu 9.04 includes the latest major release of the Xfce desktop environment 4.6
<cody-somerville> Lots of great improvements in 4.6 thanks to the hard work of the Xfce development team
<cody-somerville> If you're interesting in taking a tour of some of these great new features, I encourage you to drop by http://www.xfce.org/about/tour
<cody-somerville> Other notable improvements with 9.04 include: samba browsing, support for access remote network shares, a new user session switcher applet, and some really fantastic artwork.
<GaBo> .info
<cody-somerville> You can read more about the Xubuntu 9.04 release at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/JauntyJackalope/Final
<cody-somerville> So, what do we have on the go for Karmic?
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu has been getting a lot of attention with the netbook folks.
<cody-somerville> We want to continue to make Xubuntu a great operating system to run on your netbooks so we're going to get serious about examining what makes up Xubuntu. We're going to try and skim away some of those excess libs, we're going to re-evaluate the stack of applications we offer on the desktop such as the image viewer, and we're going to be looking at processes running by default.
<cody-somerville> We're also going to be working with upstream developers to improve the login experience by making it zippier and quicker than ever.
<sirdiego> <3
<cody-somerville> Another area we're going to focus on in improving offline documentation - improving not only content but also localization
<charlie-tca> <SiDi> QUESTION: What about Xfce's session opening ? it's quite slow at the moment
<cody-somerville> This is a known issue. There appears to be a regression which we hope resolve shortly.
<cody-somerville> Finally, For Karmic, I believe we should continue to be the best looking flavour of Ubuntu ;]. We'll be updating our usplash theme, tweaking our icon theme, and possibly using a new custom gtk theme which is in the works.
<MadGab> great :D!
<cody-somerville> I encourage everyone to get involved and help make this all possible.
<cody-somerville> UDS is coming up very quickly and I look forward to seeing you there or working with you remotely.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu is a great project to get involved in.
<daskreech> cody-somerville: usplash still exists for Koala?
<cody-somerville> daskreech, Thats yet to be decided.
<charlie-tca> <sirdiego> QUESTION: I used xubuntu a long time ago, is gdm still the one? are there plans to change to, maybe slim, in xubuntu?
<cody-somerville> sirdiego, There may be some changes in karmic. Unfortunately, I don't have much details on this yet.
<sirdiego> i think for xubuntu it'll be nice to have a fast dm
<cody-somerville> I agree :)
<JPohlmann> Being fast is not everything. Slim lacks important usability features and AFAIR it can only be controlled via keyboard shortcuts. gdm is much better at that.
<cody-somerville> <T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: Did you read todays Distrowatch Weekly? Any comments?
<cody-somerville> I have briefly read the article.
<cody-somerville> Debian Xfce definitely has been able to develop a very light weight desktop
<cody-somerville> However, I feel Xubuntu offers a desktop that enables a wider audience of users to be productive
<cody-somerville> The other thing to keep in mind is that Xubuntu 9.04 comes with a much newer kernel and includes numerous booting speed improvements, while Debian does not.
<cody-somerville> As I said, we'll be looking to improve in the area of performance and memory usage for Jaunty
<knome> for Karmic.
<cody-somerville> Right, thanks knome :)
<daskreech> +1
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, I'd now like to pass the floor to knome
<knome> ok, so let's get forward
<cody-somerville> knome is going to chat with us about how we can help share Xubuntu with others and get involved in marketing and artwork and all that good stuff
<knome> in they jaunty and partly in intrepid cycle already, we have given xubuntu and it's branding a huge facelift.
<knome> just by looking http://xubuntu.org/ you can totally say it's not something antiqueish.
<cody-somerville> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/JauntyJackalope/Final?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=main-screenshot.png <-- screenshot of desktop
<cody-somerville> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/JauntyJackalope/Final?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=jaunty-gdm.png <-- screenshot of gdm login screen
<knome> and the looks, branding, and how we shout out things to people *matter* a lot on how to get people using or trying xubuntu
<knome> on the links cody-somerville pasted you can see the artwork for xubuntu jaunty
<knome> that artwork has gotten very much positive feedback and i'm really glad about it
<knome> however, we do need more people.
<knome> we ran out of time pushing a new gtk theme and a new usplash theme into jaunty.
<knome> what we need is people telling about xubuntu for other people
<knome> and to tell our developer community what the users really want
<charlie-tca> <daskreech> QUESTION: Xubuntu seems likea good base for Schools have you looked at working with the Edubuntu project?
<knome> cody-somerville, ^ ?
<cody-somerville> daskreech, We have indeed. I imagine once Edubuntu gets on its feet again, we'll continue discussions with them.
<cody-somerville> I'm also happy to report that Xubuntu is indeed already used in a number of schools around the globe.
<knome> So, back to marketing.
<knome> What do we have in mind for Karmic?
<knome> first of all, we are determined to be the best looking *buntu again.
<knome> that means we will refresh and rethink our artwork completely
<knome> new gtk theme, new gdm theme, new wallpaper, new usplash, maybe a new icon set, ... whatever you can imagine
<knome> and we need people for that
<knome> to get that work done, i need help. :)
<knome> just join #xubuntu-devel and ask about marketing.
<knome> there is *lots* of low hanging fruit in the marketing team
<knome> there is *lots* of things you can do and it only takes at most an hour of your week
<knome> and what's most important
<knome> there is *lots* of people who haven't heard of xubuntu or the amazing lightness and features of xfce
<knome> or who think it's only for old computers or sucky monitors.
<knome> it's not. it's for everybody.
<knome> if you'd like to hear more from xubuntu marketing and artwork, join our session on thursday where i speak about artwork quality assurance as well OR join our irc channel #xubuntu-devel which is always warm and welcoming.
<knome> i'll pass it to JPohlmann now, thanks for listening.
<JPohlmann> Hey everybody
<basajaun> hi
<JPohlmann> I'm one of the Xfce developers and I'll be talking a bit about the 4.6 release which is part of Jaunty but I'll also discuss some of its problems and what we're planning to do in 4.8.
<charlie-tca> basajaun: #ubuntu-classroom-chat for questions and comments
<JPohlmann> So, we released 4.6 at the end of February after almost two years of development.
<JPohlmann> That's a pretty long release cycle and as you might guess, 4.6 brings a lot of new features and revamped components.
<JPohlmann> I don't know how many of you are familiar with earlier releases of Xfce but these are probably the most important changes in 4.6:
<JPohlmann> First of all, 4.6 introduces a new configuration system called xfconf. It sounds similar to gconf and indeed it is, it's just a lot simpler in its design.
<JPohlmann> I won't bore you with the details here (D-Bus etc.)
<JPohlmann> However, changing the config system had a lot of implications for the rest of Xfce.
<JPohlmann> We have improved most of our settings dialogs.
<JPohlmann> They follow the same design guidelines now and some have been simplified a lot.
<JPohlmann> For instance we've removed confusing things such as keyboard shortcut themes.
<JPohlmann> But not just the settings dialogs have been improved. A lot of our applications now look much cleaner and are more usable.
<JPohlmann> These are the appfinder, the mixer, the panel for instance.
<JPohlmann> We also improved the standards compliance in 4.6 with libxfce4menu which is an implementation of the XDG menu specification.
<JPohlmann> And, last but not least, session management has been improved a lot.
<JPohlmann> For instance, you'll hardly lose your panels nowadays.
<JPohlmann> They'll be restarted by the session maanger on crashes.
<JPohlmann> 4.6 also has a few problems though, which most of you will directly notice.
<JPohlmann> First of all, we had this long release cycle which means that you all had to wait for improvements for quite a while.
<JPohlmann> QUESTION: Is XFCE a good forum for someone to learn/relearn C/C++?  Does XFCE need more devs?
<JPohlmann> We're only six active core developers at Xfce, so we definitely need more hackers!
<JPohlmann> Xfce is entirely written in C, so if you want to learn C and GUI programming with GTK+, it's definitely a good chance to get started.
<JPohlmann> Ok, more problems of 4.6: menu editing support is missing. We have a few very young components such as libxfce4menu and xfce4-settings.
<JPohlmann> And no samba shares for instance.
<JPohlmann> (Xubuntu has that though ;))
<JPohlmann> So in 4.8 we'll try to fix those things.
<basajaun> and no usb support
<JPohlmann> What exactly do you mean?
<JPohlmann> We'll hopefully be able to release 4.8 within one year.
 * cody-somerville hopes for six months. :P
<JPohlmann> We also have a number of nice features in the pipes:
<JPohlmann> I'm currently working on migrating Thunar, our file manager, to GIO/GVfs which means it'll have native (optional) support for handling Samba, SFTP, FTP etc. in the future.
<basajaun> up to now any ntfs usb stick or drive was automatically mounted not so now
<cody-somerville> <tmurase> QUESTION: Is the xfce project considering moving to a time-based release model (e.g. ubuntu)?
<charlie-tca> <tmurase> QUESTION: Is the xfce project considering moving to a time-based release model (e.g. ubuntu)?
<JayFo> jinx
<JPohlmann> We'd like to but we suck pretty bad at being predictable ;)
<JPohlmann> We'll try our best.
<basajaun> lool
<JPohlmann> Ok, more for 4.8: libxfce4menu will have menu editing support. I'm cooperating with one of the Alacarte authors on that one.
<JPohlmann> The panel is being rewritten at the moment and will feature nice (and long missing) features like creating launchers via drag and drop.
<JPohlmann> That's just a few things though. We're currently slowing down a bit because we're moving our development from SVN to Git and stuff like that.
<JPohlmann> As soon as that's sorted out there will probably be more features that we're going to work on.
<cody-somerville> w00t
<cody-somerville> Thanks JPohlmann :)
<cody-somerville> 4.8 sounds like its going to be a blast
<JPohlmann> I'll let charlie-tca handle Q&A from here ;)
<JPohlmann> Stay tuned for new features via blog.xfce.org!
<cody-somerville> We're going to wrap up now with some final Q&A.
<NCommander> Hey all
<cody-somerville> oh!
<cody-somerville> Lucky us
<cody-somerville> NCommander is going to share with us some news and info about Xubuntu Ports
<NCommander> as well as information on Debian-Xubuntu collaboration :-)
<cody-somerville> Ever wondered about running Xubuntu on your playstation 3?
<cody-somerville> NCommander is going to answer those questions
<cody-somerville> :)
<NCommander> Thank you cody-somerville
<NCommander> New with 9.04 is the ability to directly run Xubuntu on your PowerMac/PowerBook, or PowerPC based iBook, as well as some IBM PowerPC desktops
<NCommander> This also includes the Sony PlayStation 3, a platform that Xubuntu is well suited for with its lower memory requirements, and lower processor requirements
<NCommander> For normal PowerPC based Desktops, normal LIveCDs and alternate CDs are available, as is an installation manual. Once installed, Xubuntu/powerpc is pretty much the same as Xubuntu/i386 or Xubuntu/amd64
<NCommander> For the PlayStation 3, alternate CDs are available, which, once installed provides the same Xubuntu experience across all architectures.
<NCommander> For general PowerPC port discussion, I recommend visiting #ubuntu-powerpc, and for PS3 discussion, visiting #ubuntu-ps3
<NCommander> Which brings us to our final topic, collaboration between Debian and Xubuntu
<NCommander> We enjoy a good working relationship with the Debian pkg-xfce group, with several of the Xubuntu Developers holding commit rights to pkg-xfce, and we pull from their SVN branches
<charlie-tca> 2 minute warning
<NCommander> As well as merge many of our bug fixing patches into their uploads; the upshot is that both Debian-Xfce and Xubuntu benefit by having more eyes review our work, and reducing our deltas from Debian (with the added bonus that many Xfce packages can simply be synced)
<NCommander> This collaboration allowed pkg-xfce to test their 4.6 packages in a production environment (since Xubuntu based off their SVN repo for 4.6), and helped both distributions improve greatly
<NCommander> Any questions?
<charlie-tca> Where do I download xubuntu for the ps3?
<NCommander> AH, good question
<NCommander> Its available on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ports/ (which is running slow at the moment)
<knome> We'll continue with the Q&A part in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and #xubuntu and #xubuntu-devel, if you still have something to ask.
<charlie-tca> A big thanks to cody-somerville, knome, JPohlmann, NCommander for a great presentation!
<jcastro> thanks everyone!
<knome> thanks jcastro! :)
<thegrieve> thanks all
<NCommander> Torrents also available here: http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/
<NCommander> :P-)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 1800 UTC: Introduction to the Server Team  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<NCommander> *:-)
<basajaun> thanks
<jcastro> mathiaz: take it away!
<mathiaz> jcastro: thanks
<sirdiego1> thanks, guys (=
<mathiaz> after NCommander introduction to Xubuntu, I'll make another presentation about the Ubuntu Server Team
<mathiaz> I'll go through who are the members of the Ubuntu Server team, what are interests.
<mathiaz> Then I'll outlines the different hats one can wear in the Ubuntu Server Team
<mathiaz> and I'll finish by giving practical tips on getting started in the Ubuntu Server Team
<basajaun> bye thanks
<mathiaz> So Who are we ?
<mathiaz> We are a group of people that have an interest in server related software.
<mathiaz> As an extension we tend also to deal with setups found in corporate environments, such as directory services (ldap, AD) web services, or network authentication.
<mathiaz> Some of us are working for Canonical in the Server team, lead by Rick Clark (dendrobates on IRC).
<mathiaz> Others have services and businesses running on Ubuntu and are interested in fixing bugs.
<mathiaz> Regular contributors takes on important tasks and lead them to completion.
<mathiaz> Here is a short (and incomplete) list of the features that have been developed during the last release cycle:
<mathiaz> Dustin Kirkland (kirkland) added the possibility to create encrypted home directories. The implementation is based on the ecryptfs project. Dustin is also one of the leader in the upstream project.
<mathiaz> For Karmic he is looking into adding this feature as an option to all users installing Ubuntu as well as a migration mechanism for saying "I didn't encrypt my home at install, but i would like to do so now!".
<mathiaz> Help in designing, coding and testing this feature is welcome. Interested? Contact Dustin Kirkland.
 * kirkland waves o/
<mathiaz> Soren Hansen (soren) and Thierry Carrez (ttx) integrated Eucalyptus helping Ubuntu users to build their own EC2-like cloud.
<mathiaz> In the domain of cloud computing official Ubuntu Server machines are available from Amazon EC2 thanks to the work of Chuck Short (zul).
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 2000 UTC: Introduction to the Server Team  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mathiaz> Ante KaramatiÄ (ivoks) lead an effort to improve the mail server stack in Ubuntu: postfix and dovecot are now better integrated through the dovecot-postfix package providing seamless SASL authentication.
<mathiaz> If you're interested in helping out implementing this feature get in touch with Ante!
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer (sommer) is our documentation guru. He reviewed and updated the Server Guide.
<mathiaz> The virtualization section has been revamped to closely follow what has been done in the virtulization stack while the section about network authentication has been augmented to cover kerberos and its integration with openldap.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next Session: 2200 UTC: Introduction to the Server Team  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> (sorry, I can't tell time)
<mathiaz> So you can see that we are a diverse group that have different interests. We're also involved in other teams from the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> This is one of the characteristics of the Server Team: we all share a common interest in server technologies, but have different skills.
<mathiaz> Being part of the team often means representing the Server Team in other areas of the Ubuntu project and the Free Sofware ecosystem in general.
<mathiaz> Being a contributor to the server team can be taken under different roles:
<mathiaz> The helpers answers questions on the ubuntu-server mailing list, the #ubuntu-server irc channel and the server forums.
<mathiaz> Triagers dig into bugs the ubuntu-server LP team is subscribed to.
<mathiaz> Our LP team is a bug contact for a list packages, such as samba, openldap, mysql or apache2.
<mathiaz> The current list of packages can be found in Launchpad (https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs) and is growing every release.
<mathiaz> A mailing list gathers all the bugs related to the ubuntu-server team: ubuntu-server-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com. To get started in triaging signup here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server-bugs
<mathiaz> This is a great way to start with the LP bug tracker and doesn't require any knowledge of programming languages.
<mathiaz> We're working closely with the BugSquad team - triagers participate on the bugsquad mailing list https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/
<mathiaz> And once in a while with have the honor of having our own HugDay where the whole bug triaging community helps us.
<mathiaz> Once bugs have been triaged, it's time to fix them. This is when the packagers come into the game.
<mathiaz> This role requires an interest in packaging.
<mathiaz> We maintain a list of bugs that are easy to fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+mentoring
<mathiaz> Fixes can make their way into the ubuntu repositories via the sponsorship process as described in the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<mathiaz> Doing work on the packaging front leads to a close a collaboration with the MOTU team and is a great way to gain experience to become a MOTU - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<mathiaz> Testing is another way to take part of the Server Team activity. This role doesn't require a lot of deep technical knowledge.
<mathiaz> We work with the Ubuntu QA team - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam.
<mathiaz> Testers are taking a more and more important role the more we advance in the release cycle:
<mathiaz> We're responsible for ensuring that the ubuntu-server isos are working correctly, which involves performing a dozen of tests for two isos.
<mathiaz> The list of tests can be found in the wiki: http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/
<mathiaz> Results are tracked via the Iso testing tracker located at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/.
<mathiaz> Server hardware support is another area where testing is welcome.
<mathiaz> We're trying to make sure that ubuntu can be used on the main server hardware, so if you have access to such hardware, popping a cd into the machine, installing a standard ubuntu server and reporting whether it has successfully installed or failed is an easy way to contribute to the server team.
<mathiaz> This work is coordinated in the ServerTesting Team wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTestingTeam
<mathiaz> rowsing the ubuntu-server mailing list archive, lurking in the #ubuntu-server irc channel or going through the forum posts shows patterns in user's questions.
<mathiaz> Recurring themes are identified and turned into documentation. A wiki page in the community section of help.ubuntu.com is first created. Once the quality has improved, a new section is added to the server guide.
<mathiaz> All this work is undertaken by the Documentors of the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Collaboration with the Documentation team is done on a daily basis to achieve consistency with other help resources.
<mathiaz> More information about the Documentation team can be found on their website located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer (sommer) leads the update and review of the Ubuntu Server guide. The source document is maintained in a bzr tree. Helping Adam will introduce you to docbook and distributed versioning with bazaar.
<mathiaz> Getting started involves following 3 steps outlined in the Server Team Knowledge base: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Ubuntu%20Server%20Guide
<mathiaz> There is also the option to go over server related wiki pages on the community help pages. A good starting point is the Server page that has links to lots of other howtos. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers
<mathiaz> Another hat you can wear in the Server Team is the Developer one.
<mathiaz> They develop new features usually specified during the Ubuntu Developer Summit that takes place at the beginning of each release cycle. Tracked by a blueprint we have around 3 months to get a new feature into Ubuntu.
<mathiaz> As we are at the beginning of a release cycle most members of the Server Team are thinking about new features that could be implemented for Karmic. These ideas should be added to the Server Team IdeaPool page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/IdeaPool.
<mathiaz> Anyone is welcome to give input on existing ideas and help out refining them.
<mathiaz> As you can see, contributing to the Server Team can be undertaken in more than one way. It usually involves a lot of interaction with other teams from the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> It's also a good way to show your contribution to Ubuntu and helps getting Ubuntu membership.
<mathiaz> The GettingInvolved page gives an overview of the roles I've talked about above: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<mathiaz> So how do we work ?
<mathiaz> We track our progress on the Roadmap and meet once a week to discuss outstanding issues.
<mathiaz> Our current work can be tracked on the Roadmap wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> We use the ubuntu-server mailing to coordinate our activities, discuss policy change in the team as well as helping out users.
<mathiaz> You can subscribe to the mailing list here: Join our mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server.
<mathiaz> There is also an Ubuntu Server blog maintained by some members of the Server Team. Minutes of the meeting as well as other topics related to the Ubuntu Server Team activities are regularly posted there: http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/
<mathiaz> How to join the Server Team and start contributing ?
<mathiaz> Joining the ubuntu-server team on LP is as simple as subscribing to the ubuntu-server mailing list and applying for membership on LP https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/
<mathiaz> If you already know which role you'd like to contribute as, you can find a list of tasks in the Roadmap. Don't hesitate to ask one of the team members involved in your area of interest.
<mathiaz> Most of the information related to the ServerTeam can be found in the ServerTeam wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam.
<jcastro> mathiaz: you might want to open it up for questions soon, people are getting antsy. :)
<mathiaz> If you're overwhelmed by all the available information and you're lost, come talk to me. You can find me in #ubuntu-server amongst other channels. I'll help get out of the mist and we'll find a way you can get involved in the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Allright - I'm going to answer the questions from -chat.
<mathiaz> I'm sorry that I haven't specified this at the begining of my session.
<mathiaz> 18:12 < somnoliento> QUESTION: Jono asked a while back about a possible tighter integration between client and server. Is this a current area of interest/development?
<mathiaz> somnoliento: yes. We're looking at ways to get better integration.
<mathiaz> It depends on the applications considered and especially the environment in which the Ubuntu infrastructure will be deployed.
<mathiaz> Some things such as Single Sign On support is looked at: so that you can use your evolution mail client and connect to the mail server without having to enter a username and password for your IMAP accounts or for sending email.
<mathiaz> Another example would be for intranets where a user using firefox would authenticate automatically to internal web servers.
<mathiaz> 18:13 < pwnguin> QUESTION: Does the server team have a preferred tool for backing up servers and desktops?
<mathiaz> pwnguin: one of the official package (ie in main) for backup is bacula
<mathiaz> pwnguin: backuppc is also in main and can be used for backups.
<mathiaz> pwnguin: however bacula support tapes and robotic libraries which are often used in corporate environements.
<mathiaz> 18:14 < RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: What about packages like Heartbeat, Keepalived, ipvsadm, ldirectord, etc, why is server team not suscribed to them?
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: we aren't subscribed to every possible package. We tend to add them whenever we come across them.
<hal14450> cprofitt, at least i can time shift irc easily enough ;-)
<mathiaz> There are thousands of packages in the archive - we haven't conducted an exhaustive review of which packages should be server related.
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, But, for example, i do think those packages are importante since companies tend to use, or at least are trying to handle clusters, so those packages should be important for the server team.
<mathiaz> We should also be careful about adding too many packages - doing so would increase the number of bug mails, which usually means that people tend to ignore them
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: agreed.
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, i do think they are important.. and i do offer myself to implement howtos for the server guide on most of them :)
<mathiaz> The specific packages you gave are more oriented towards high-availibilty. May a team could be created to gather people interested in that specific area
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: awesome! thanks for the offer.
<saketh> when is the next session in pacific time?
<mathiaz> RoAkSoAx: you should get in touch with sommer - I'm sure he'll gladly accept more sections to the server guide
<RoAkSoAx> mathiaz, that's an awesome Idea! you guys should discuss that in the next UDS (since i'm not attending) and I offer myself to colaborate in High availability related stuff
<mathiaz> 18:15 < somnoliento> QUESTION: Could you explain Eucalyptus in about ten words? (none of them being EC2?) in other words, who could do what with it?
<mathiaz> an open-source software infrastructure for implementing "cloud computing" on clusters
<mathiaz> Based on virtualization technology (such as kvm) it supports starting, stoping guests on a multiple machines.
<mathiaz> 18:50 < pwnguin> QUESTION: how many nodes should I have before eucalyptus makes sense?
<mathiaz> pwnguin: I don't have a specific number.
<pwnguin> wags are acceptable :)
<mathiaz> I think what matters is how many users would be serviced.
<mathiaz> eucalyptus makes it simple to deploy and manage new guests on nodes.
<mathiaz> whether you run one, five or hundreds of nodes isn't so important
<mathiaz> (by node I refer to the physical systems that are running hypervisors)
<mathiaz> If there are more questions ask them in ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll try to answer them in the remaning minutes
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<mathiaz> 18:55 < pwnguin> QUESTION: what's the most important next step to take if someone wants to participate with the ubuntu server team?
<mathiaz> The GettingInvolved page gives an overview of the roles I've talked about above: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<mathiaz> If you already have an are of interests, start looking at bugs for the relevant packages.
<mathiaz> Allright - if there aren't any questions anymore I'd like to thank you all for attending.
<jcastro> thanks Mathias!
<mathiaz> If you have any questions you can stop by #ubuntu-server or email me
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2300 UTC: Ubuntu Community Learning Project  || Intro to Ubuntu Brainstorm || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> cprofitt: we'll give everyone a 2 minute break, then you can begin!
 * cprofitt nods
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-28
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2300 UTC: Ubuntu Community Learning Project  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> sorry everyone, I'm an idiot
<jcastro> ok cprofitt, take it away!
<cprofitt> alright... lets begin...
<cprofitt> Welcome everyone. I am Charles Profitt and the current lead of the Ubuntu Forums Beginners Team Education Focus Group. I am here today to shed some light on a new project just in the seedling phase.
<cprofitt> the LP page is at - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning
<cprofitt> We would like to eventually build a site comparable to - http://tinyurl.com/dm6y8p - with people being able to come to the site for free 'courses' that help them learn how to use Ubuntu and the applications that come with Ubuntu. That teach them how to contribute to the community - wiki, doc team, translations, etc. That help them become developers that contribute to Ubuntu. To do this we will work with existing material as well as c
<cprofitt> reate new material. brainbench.com also has some examples of what I am talking about.
<cprofitt> I would like to take some time to explain what we are going to do to 'augment' the existing material.
<cprofitt> Moodle allows for courses to be built that have 'activities' including: quizzes, lessons, glossaries, surveys and other components that make it more similar to what you would have in an on-line course.
<cprofitt> Moodle is considered a Learning Management System
<cprofitt> and the team evaluated several options before choosing Moodle
<cprofitt> If you would like to learn more about Moodle you can go to their site - http://moodle.org/
<cprofitt> For an anology - existing material is like the text book. Moodle adds exercises that ask people to put the knowledge gained from the material in to practice. It also adds the ability for people to self-evaluate. Unlike school there are no grades planned. It also allows an 'instructor' to decide which material should be covered first through last; to make sure the student builds on material piece by piece.
 * cprofitt smiles
<cprofitt> The plan is to provide self-paced courses that allow users to go through the material themselves and to provide instructor lead courses that will have scheduled meeting times (using #ubuntu-classroom) and an instructor that will host question and answer time.
<cprofitt> There is a great deal of very valuable content that is 'out there' in the form of wiki how-tos, forum guides, help articles, etc...
<cprofitt> and this project aims to make use of those in 'building' a course.
<cprofitt> the team includes pleia2 from the classroom project
 * pleia2 waves
<cprofitt> and we have also spoken to Canonical and gotten approval to use learn.ubuntu.com as the site URL
<st33med> yay
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, will be hosting a server that the URL will be pointed at
<cprofitt> From our conversations with Billy Cina and dinda the sabdfl is aware of and excited about the project.
<cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: will this be self-hosted, or be using the moodlerooms service?
<cprofitt> this will be hosted by bodhi_zazen who has purchased the server with his own funds
<cprofitt> txwikinger, we are looking for people who want to contribute... we have not determined the process for that yet
<cprofitt> We still have to work through licensing discussions though we are in the realm of CC - its just a matter of which one
<bodhi_zazen> setting up server now :)
<cprofitt> There are two sets of goals
<cprofitt> 1)  Build a community based learning platform / set of courseware that will allow organizations to move forward with adoption Uubntu
<cprofitt> 2)  Assist individual motivate users to become contributors to the community
<cprofitt> zhurai> QUESTION: for:  " that will have scheduled meeting times (using #ubuntu-classroom) ", would those be logged too (just as this OpenWeek's #ubuntu-classroom logs are put into those pages)?
<cprofitt> Yes, the instructor lead courses that use #ubuntu-classroom would be logged
<cprofitt> and the logs added to the course record
<cprofitt> <dinda> QUESTION:  have you had any success in working with the doc team?  they are looking at ways to improve new member training/mentoring.
<cprofitt> from my understanding dinda we have... though I am not 100% on the level of involvement currently
<cprofitt> the Doc team will be an integral part of the project... of that much I am sure
<cprofitt> greg-g> cprofitt_monitor: if you have any questions regarding CC licensing, I can answer them for you.  I currently work for CC.
<dinda>  I see DougieRichardson is on your membership list - that is a good start
 * cprofitt writes down his greg-g's name
<greg-g> :)
<cprofitt> The issue with CC greg-g is we are unsure of what level of restriction we want...
<cprofitt> Do we want to limit a training center from charging for an on-site course using our material or not?
<cprofitt> Can a school district or company use the training material internally...
<greg-g> all valid questions, and I can relate experiences from others who have done similar things.
<cprofitt> <Yasumoto> cprofitt: Have you heard about the Mozilla Education (http://education.mozilla.org) or Teaching Open Source (http://teachingopensource.com/) projects? Although they're more focused on "Open Source as curriculum" I think that there is some overlap in the projects.
<cprofitt> I had not heard of those... so I will take a hard long look at them
 * cprofitt thanks for those resources
<cprofitt> st33med> QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better for the instructors to choose the licensing?
<cprofitt> I do not think so. I do not want there to be confusion over what courseware is offered through the project
<st33med> Probably GNU compliant?
<cprofitt> I would think that having a sep. CC license for each course would cause confusion...
<cprofitt> while that may make some contributors shy away, I would hope not.
<thewrath> one license (sp) for everything less confusion i beleive
<cprofitt> QUESTION:  where are the next meetings listed?  is there a wiki page for the group?
<cprofitt> The wiki page will be created over the next few days...
<cprofitt> there is a beginning on the page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<cprofitt> on the topic of the doc team Vantrax just told me the following
<cprofitt> Vantrax> ive been speaking with dougie, most of the doc team isnt interested, but enough are to make it work
<cprofitt> the next meeting is scheduled for May 2nd (this weekend)
<cprofitt> at 21:00 UTC I believe
<Vantrax> Hi all, sorry I havent been around to give more info
<Vantrax> cprofitt, yep
<cprofitt> Yes, SCROM and LAMS are the two formats that Moodle uses other than Moodle itself.
<cprofitt> We are currently only looking at SCORM to my knowledge
<Vantrax> SCORM is the standard being pushed by the US government as a standard but no decisions have been made at that level yet. Any informed opinions would be welcome.
<cprofitt> Any other questions?
<juan_marquez> buenas
<cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: how do you get a reasonable cohort on a self-paced course?
<cprofitt> cohort... is not a word I am familiar with in this context... I only know Roman legion cohorts...
<cprofitt> could you expand on that term?
<pwnguin> i think it means the student body
<pwnguin> ie your peers
<cprofitt> ok...
<Vantrax> its more a university term
<pwnguin> people you can bounce ideas off of
<cprofitt> with a self-paced you would not really have a concurrent group of students... you may or may not...
<cprofitt> the instructor lead courses would have a defined start and end time for the course
<cprofitt> dinda> QUESTION:  can you post the link to the Forums  Beginners Team?
<Vantrax> At this stage the plan is to have IRC time available either scheduled or as required depending on numbers for the self paced courses, basically as a Q&A time
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: do i need to be active in the forums to participate?
<cprofitt> No, there is no need to be active on the forums...
<cprofitt> we may use material from some of the how-to guides posted there, but you will not need to be active
<cprofitt> unless an instructor wants to use the forums as an activity
<Vantrax> any material used from how-to guides will be used only with the original author's permission
<cprofitt> pwnguin> question: will the service be able to host videos?
<cprofitt> I believe it can...
<cprofitt> Moodle can also host flash animations...
<cprofitt> though I would like to find a FOSS alternative to flash
<cprofitt> <dinda> QUESTIONS:  what about screencasts?  are you working with that team too?
<cprofitt> I am not aware of us doing that yet, but we certainly would want too.
<cprofitt> pwnguin> question: would a refresher course on new features every release be a reasonable project?
<cprofitt> I think we would focus on LTS courses...
<cprofitt> doing courses every 6 months would be difficult
<cprofitt> we would try to keep courses up-to-date if possible
<cprofitt> pwnguin> QUESTION: if you offer courseware via Creative Commons, aren't you basically required to disclose test and quiz answers to anyone who asks for them ahead of time?
<cprofitt> Sure...
<cprofitt> just like any workbook you buy the answers are in that section...
<cprofitt> but if a person wants to get value out of it.. they likely will try to do the work
<cprofitt> since there are no grades I am not sure why anyone would want to 'abuse' having the answers
<pwnguin> imagine a community college course borrowing the courseware
<pwnguin> for an intro to UNIX course or some such
<Vantrax> also there is no certification, that is canonicals baby
<Vantrax> pwnguin, that would be a good thing, long as its attributed
<cprofitt> Now...
<cprofitt> I am currently recruiting EDU curriculum writers to assist us with writing the first course...
<cprofitt> and the first course will be a course on - How to Build A Moodle Course -
<cprofitt> that will help other contributors build solid courses
<cprofitt> if you know of an educator who has Moodle (or other LMS experience) we are interested in talking to them
<cprofitt> Thank you for attending everyone...
<cprofitt> have a good evening
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next session starts @ 15:00 UTC || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 * ausimage remarks all logs for today are up !!!
<pleia2> hooray :)
<FiveAcres> /join #xubuntu
<Faith_Nahn> \ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<AmanicA> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<AmanicA> sorry
<thegrieve> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS  JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC  DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<thegrieve> hehe
<thegrieve> sorry too
<thegrieve> thanks AmanicA for saving me having to open the wiki again tho :)
<jcastro> nhandler: around?
<jcastro> 1 hour, 15 minutes until the Mark Shuttleworth Q+A session folks!
 * thegrieve cheers our SABDFL
 * artir thinks sabdfl isn't here yet
<knome> thegrieve, one hour.
 * thegrieve is aware of the fact but likes to express himself
 * artir proposes thegrieve and everyone to say WELCOME MARK in capital letters when he enters the chat
 * thegrieve thinks that might create a somewhat creepy village-of-the-damned-esque atmosphere..... naturally he approves
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1500 UTC: Mark Shuttleworth  Q+A  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> testing
<jcastro> Just a few more minutes everyone!
<jcastro> Just a quick reminder before mark gets here
<jcastro> questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> and I will paste them here
<jcastro> we always get a ton of questions, so if your question is easily google-able I'll probably skip it
<jcastro> so try not asking when the next ubuntu comes out or something. :)
<sabdfl> howdy all
<jcastro> Welcome Mark!
<sabdfl> fingers all warmed up, let's get cracking
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for showing up, all 324 of you!
<jcastro> start with questions or do you have something to say first?
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> only thanks to everyone who helped  make 9.04 our BEST RELEASE EVER :-)
<sabdfl> on that note, fire away
<jcastro> <effie_jayx> QUESTION: Issues with drivers tend to plague Ubuntu with with nasty bugs very close to release time, is there any reconsiderations with release schedules to give more time for beta testing?
<sabdfl> effie_jayx: thorny problem, and not one that the release cycle itself can solve
<sabdfl> the more time we spend on beta testing, the more new hardware is emerging that won't work with that release
<sabdfl> there is a conversation ongoing about the LTS's
<sabdfl> www.markshuttleworth.com needs comments, hint hint ;-)
<sabdfl> but there's no strong movement to re-evaluate 6 month releases
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <kwah> QUESTION: Recently a translation coordinator was appointed at Canonical, I am glad that this aspect of cooperation between Ubuntu and various upstream projects is in focus. Are there already plans and ideas on what should be improved, may be even there particular targets have been defined already?
<sabdfl> you'd be best asking (David) ?
<jcastro> His session is 1500UTC on friday
<sabdfl> coolio
<jcastro> <RoAkSoAx> QUESTION: Does canonical provides Internships or Entry Level positions for sysadmins/developers?
<sabdfl> we spent a lot of time building a translation framework that could coordinate between ubuntu and upstream
<sabdfl> and then realised we had nobody actually focused on that flow
<sabdfl> so hopefully this will be a big improvement
<sabdfl> RoAkSoAx: yes, we do, best to chat with someone on the canonical platform (ubuntu) team, or one of the sysadmins if that's your focus area
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <oldman> QUESTION: Mark, are there plans to do more work with existing partners like IBM to increase official product  (WebSphere, Eclipse, TeamConcert etc.) support for Ubuntu Server as an enterprise platform? http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/ibm
<sabdfl> oldman: yes, very much so. we need to be able to demonstrate critical mass, i have no doubt we will get there
<sabdfl> key thing is to demonstrate large organisations deploying ubuntu in production, underneath services which they expect to pay to keep healthy and innovative
<sabdfl> so, if you have case studies, or users, that will help
<sabdfl> as best i can tell, ubuntu is the #1 platform for evaluations, now
<sabdfl> need to translate that into production deployments
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <ikonia> QUESITON: What factors are you juding 9.04 as the best release ever from ?
<sabdfl> nice combination of desktop and server features, plus
<sabdfl> no major subsystem issues, plus
<sabdfl> some unique features we are contributing to upstream, plus
<sabdfl> 105 release parties, plus
<sabdfl> it's named after a mythical horned rabbit.
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <blfgomes> QUESTION: Recently, the idea of replacing Rhythmbox for Banshee in Karmic has resparked the Mono debate in the Ubuntu community. As the SABDFL, what is your view on Mono? Is it safe to build a distribution that depends on it?
<sabdfl> yes, i believe mono is a reasonable runtime to include in a distribution like ubuntu
<sabdfl> i don't expect microsoft to launch any IP assaults based on mono adoption, they have said they will not do that
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <No`> QUESTION: Where do you think we are concerning the bug #1? do you see it being closed in the (more or less distant) future?
<sabdfl> interesting times
<sabdfl> linux (and to a certain extent ubuntu) is now a major force in the PC industry
<sabdfl> microsoft was able to do a diving catch to save market share in netbooks only by giving XP away at very, very low prices
<sabdfl> a product they wanted to kill 18 months ago
<sabdfl> now, things will get more interesting
<sabdfl> we will see Windows 7 Starter Edition in major western markets, which is new (it was designed for emerging markets to address piracy)
<sabdfl> and we'll see if that model works for users
<sabdfl> i think we can compete
<sabdfl> ubuntu with full office capability competes nicely with uncrippled windows and office on price, stability and functionality
<sabdfl> so, game on
<sabdfl> we will know a lot more in 18 months - can we actually carve out territory that is defensible?
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <artir> QUESTION: what are the plans for GNOME3 and the LTS. Will you release 10.04 with it or defer it to 10.10?
<sabdfl> we'll support GNOME3 in the best way we can
<sabdfl> it's too early to say what that will be - it depends on what our users want, what the development community wants, and what the code looks like
<sabdfl> i suspect it will be best to get GNOME3 onto as many *developer* desktops as possible as soon as possible
<sabdfl> but that it will not be a good service to our users to suggest they upgrade direct to 3.0, perhaps more 3.2
<sabdfl> the experience with KDE was very useful
<sabdfl> if GNOME 3 is 2.30, then I expect we would make available packages in universe or a PPA with easy tools for people to get it in one click or one command
<sabdfl> while delivering an LTS based on more established code
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <jsgotangco> QUESTION: Now that Ubuntu is diving into the "Cloud" space, how does Canonical see this evolution of Ubuntu server - does it involve  providing a server stack or more modular building blocks for enterprise apps?
<sabdfl> the Ubuntu server is already fantastic for highly virtualised and large-scale deployments, thanks to it's awesome heritage in Debian combined with the predictability of the Ubuntu cycle and service backup of Canonical
<sabdfl> the debian way is highly modular, which is great for large deployments because you only install the bits you need, meaning you only have security updates for the bits you need
<sabdfl> it's also great for virtualisation, because you have leaner, more efficient images
<sabdfl> so far so good
<sabdfl> next, i think the focus will shift to finding and deploying appliances rather than packages
<sabdfl> but, your crystal ball is likely as good as mine :-)
<sabdfl> in 9.10, i think we'll show progress in how you design and build collections of virtual appliances for deployment on a UEC (Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud) substrate
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <ronaldh> QUESTION: Mark, How do you see the Oracle-Sun deal, do you think it is going to affect Open source projects like Java, OpenOffice, etc? Is it going to affect in some way ubuntu?
<sabdfl> it will definitely affect them, but it's too soon to know for sure how
<sabdfl> we'll have to see whether Oracle makes any big initial moves (selling off or shutting down any projects)
<sabdfl> then we'll need to see if the people who were engaged there are changed
<sabdfl> and then we'll need to see how the dust settles
<sabdfl> that will take three months, a year, three years respectively
<sabdfl> the code is still free software, that cannot be taken back
<sabdfl> if you're passionate about those projects the best thing to do is to participate, imo
<sabdfl> i'm not worried about any of those
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <artir> QUESTION: Can you give us more intel on Ubuntuone, please? ( /sad kitten face=1)
<sabdfl> ubuntu one is a framework for building online services that plug right into the desktop
<sabdfl> so, you can build a service which has data in the cloud and a front-end on the desktop
<sabdfl> Canonical provides some of the core infrastructure you can hook into
<sabdfl> but your service is your business
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <ongolaBoy> QUESTION:considering a recently map on open source activity worldwide, what do you think could help african people to use more open source products ?
<sabdfl> ongolaBoy: it takes a lot of confidence to deploy open source
<sabdfl> so, how can we build the IT skills confidence in the continent?
<sabdfl> better education, better experience with open source
<sabdfl> i think it's up to the IT leaders in countries, government and private sector, to decide which way they want to go
<sabdfl> i'm pretty sure africa will be a major beneficiary, but i'm not sure africa will be an effective leader of the move to open source
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <Milos_SD> QUESTION: Will we finaly have a promised "New look" in next release, and is it gonna be something good, something different or something like Human-Clearlooks. :)
<sabdfl> Milos_SD: it has taken a long, long time to pull together a design team
<sabdfl> i had hoped to have that team in place six months ago, but it's still forming
<sabdfl> i think we will make good progress in the next cycle
<sabdfl> you can already see a few things that have borne fruit from that team
<sabdfl> notifications, time zone selector in installer, etc
<sabdfl> but it's fragmentary
<sabdfl> i'm pretty darn confident we'll have a new look for 10.04
<sabdfl> but i think only pieces of that will emerge for 9.10
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <aquarius> QUESTION: Canonical have a design ethic that's (IMO) ahead of the rest of the free software community, and I'd love to buy hardware with that design ethic; any chance of Canonical making that happen somehow?
<jcastro> some other questions about canonical getting into hardware as well
<sabdfl> aquarius: appreciate the compliment - for the moment i think we have to focus our efforts on the software piece and work with a diversity of hardware partners to help you get the device you need and want!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <emmajane> QUESTION: brick and mortar stores rely on the sales of software along with PCs. Many local-to-me shops refuse to carry free OS computers because they lose the related software sales. Do you have suggestions on how we can support our local shops AND Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> it's a great question
<sabdfl> essentially - is industry addicted to software margins, and can we safely treat the addiction?
<sabdfl> one answer is that computers will increasingly be sold in non-specialised stores
<sabdfl> both online and offline
<sabdfl> Tesco's, and Amazon
<sabdfl> or Dell.com
<sabdfl> that's not a great answer for your local-to-you specialised store, though
<sabdfl> i don't have better ideas other than that, if we continue to improve the experience, usefulness, robustness and capabilities of the free software alternative
<sabdfl> industry will reconfigure itself around that
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <cprofitt> QUESTION: Do you see value in assisting LoCo groups who want to advocate for Ubuntu at computer shows such as the annual NYSCATE show (http://www.nyscate.org/) where Microsoft and Apple have dominated mind share in US schools
<sabdfl> i do, but i also know the difficulty of engaging with thousands of such initiatives
<sabdfl> we have programs like shipit, where we have specific processes to identify and support those sorts of events
<sabdfl> but we are a small team spread thin worldwide
<sabdfl> do you have a specific request or suggestion?
<sabdfl> if so, please mail jorge, and feel free to cc me
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <rabbit251> QUESTION: If suddenly the majority of computer users were on Ubuntu machines instead of Windows, do you think Ubuntu would be ready? Are there any key developments that need to be made before Ubuntu could be an excellent mainstream product? (Is it even desirable to be so mainstream?)
<sabdfl> great question
<sabdfl> yes, it's desireable, and yes, there would be issues
<sabdfl> i think we will grow into the role
<sabdfl> there's a LOT going on at the hardware level, as we engage with the PC industry to work out how to enable them best on linux generally and Ubuntu specifically
<sabdfl> if the world suddenly wanted Ubuntu everywhere tomorrow, we'd blow a fuse
<sabdfl> but over time it could be done
<sabdfl> and i think we shouldn't shy away from a mainstream role
<sabdfl> folks spending weekends making X better, or GiMP better, or Abiword better, or OO.o better, will have more satisfaction if they know that work will reach 100m people rather than 10m people
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <jarens> Question : regarding the computer distribution, I ofen been told linux is for geeks/specialists only, my ubuntu experiences shows me the inverse, how can we change the way stores sales man see linux ?
<sabdfl> jarens: only with patience, time, and commitment to making it even better every six months
<sabdfl> thank you for the compliments though :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <doctormo> QUESTION: I hear your in support of the new Ubuntu Learning group, do you think it's important for LoCo groups to be involved in Education Events, classes and so on?
<sabdfl> yes, very much so
<sabdfl> in part to help jarens with those salesmen :-)
<sabdfl> we have very precious knowledge, those of us who are early on the free software adoption curve
<sabdfl> and finding effective ways to share it is essential
<sabdfl> so, kudos and thanks to all who are involved in that effort
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <koolhead17> Question:am from India and i can see real participation coming from all corners of the society for ubuntu but  they need real volunteers/certifications/motivation.what is the roadmap for that?
<sabdfl> koolhead17: participating is a social process
<sabdfl> so one thing is to make sure that those who join are made welcome and find constructive things to do
<sabdfl> it's also professional, so we have been working for some time on qualifications that certify one's skills
<sabdfl> the most important thing, imo, is convincing Indian companies to deploy free software, and hire people who know how to make it work
<sabdfl> i saw news today about India buying 250k OLPC's, which is great
<sabdfl> I also saw news about Indian IT companies letting their employees spend time on open source software during the recession, also brilliant
<sabdfl> because it will let them build their reputation and skills for the post-recession time
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> TheOpenSourcerer: QUESTION: A *good while* ago announcements were made regarding the packaging of Alfresco and Zimbra in the repos.  Where are they?
<sabdfl> i don't know, offhand, i'm afraid
<sabdfl> best would be to email john.pugh@canonical.com
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <theron> QUESTION: with Canonical settling on virtualization support around KVM, is there going to be development of a Ubuntu KVM baremetal install similar to what Redhat is working on?
<sabdfl> you mean, a thins hypervisor layer?
<jcastro> yes
<sabdfl> if so, we are already much thinner in a default install than Redhat
<sabdfl> so it's less of a priority
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <carthik> QUESTION: As a maintainer of Ubuntu systems, I find it disappointing when many (non-security) bugs are closed with a comment saying "this is fixed for the $current-version-in-dev". Can LTS-es please start getting more meaningful long term support, ie, not just security fixes?
<sabdfl> carthik: every update carries risk
<sabdfl> if we fixed a bug for one user, but broke thousands of systems, we would be abusing our responsibilities
<sabdfl> so, we are conservative in that regard
<sabdfl> the SRU process is there specifically to ensure we maintain predictability for users
<sabdfl> sometimes the bug you know is better than the fix you don't
<sabdfl> if you think it can be done better i would encourage you to join the team that evaluates SRU's
<sabdfl> put more fixed packages in PPA's
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Some ayatana questions! <oldman> QUESTION: Mark, as part of project ayatana, will we see Canonical's design team raising usability bugs and feeding suggested improvements into key desktop apps bug trackers for Karmic? https://launchpad.net/ayatana
<sabdfl> yes
<jcastro> (also: <JayBee> QUESTION: What will come next in the Ayatana project? What part of the experience will you try to enhance next?)
<sabdfl> Ayatana is an initiative that spans desktop environments (there are folks there from KDE and GNOME at least, possibly XFCE et al)
<sabdfl> and I expect us to engage directly with individual upstreams as well as the broader DE's
<sabdfl> notifications will see an evolutionary improvement in 9.10 that is under discussion on the Ayatana list
<sabdfl> as will the messaging menu
<sabdfl> those discussions are all public so please join in
<sabdfl> there are some other new features that we are working on for partners, they will be open source when they release and go into the next version of ubuntu
<sabdfl> more on those in the announcements in due course :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <WebMaven> QUESTION: What heuristic do you use to determine which parts of Launchpad will be open sourced, and which will remain proprietary?
<sabdfl> launchpad.net is a front end, all of that code is being released
<sabdfl> there are a variety of other services and things that talk to it
<sabdfl> and we'll release some of those
<sabdfl> in some cases, licensing of components may preclude release
<sabdfl> in others, i may want to create competitive advantage for canonical
<sabdfl> but everything that an upstream uses through the web will be released
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <yuriy_jirov> QUESTION: dear mister Mark. What kind of poems do you like? Flight to space what rhyme gives?
<sabdfl> Poems that distract from crashy landings :-)
<sabdfl> it's a long time since i read poetry, but thanks for the reminder i'll go dig some up!
<sabdfl> saw Oliver recently, was a lot of fun, i was the Artful Dodger in a school performance of it years ago
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <Shock> QUESTION: Why does Canonical refuse to provide a 32bit desktop kernel that supports more than 4GB of RAM?
<sabdfl> Shock: because it's not worth the performance, stability and complexity tradeoffs for 10m users
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <Shane_Fagan> QUESTION: Have you seen gnome-shell what do you think?
<sabdfl> i was there when it was being designed in Boston
<sabdfl> i think there are cool ideas, and it will evolve into something fantastic given time
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <doctormo> QUESTION: Are there any plans to develop Beta/RC specific packages which are able to test hardware configurations and report more possible failures?
<sabdfl> the whole arena of QA is coming on in leaps and bounds
<sabdfl> we *nearly* go kerneloops integrated in 9.04, but it slipped
<sabdfl> apport has come along hugely
<sabdfl> all the bug reporting tools are improved
<sabdfl> we are now at about 50% of bugs reported being done with tools rather than the web, which is great
<sabdfl> we get much clearer data from tools, of course
<sabdfl> for more, i would suggest you chat to henrik omma
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <MagicFab> QUESTION: Mark, what is your all-time favorite comfort food ?
<sabdfl> peanut butter and jam on toast
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <miles2> QUESTION: Has there been any dialog with Apple on bringing official iTunes/iPod support to Linux?  This has been another stumbling block to linux adoption...
<sabdfl> (i also have a killer weakness for by-weight sweets at the movies)
<sabdfl> miles2: none of which i'm aware
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <A4Tech1> QUESTION: In Ubuntu 9.04 there is a new system notifications (notify-osd) When the ability to customize them? If so, what emerges more than two messages?
<sabdfl> A4Tech1: serialising the messages is by design behaviour for notify-osd
<sabdfl> in other words, if three different apps send you messages, you see them one at a time
<sabdfl> that lets us bound the area devoted to this on the screen
<sabdfl> we also created the ability for apps to append to existing messages
<sabdfl> which is useful for sequential messages from the same app, often
<sabdfl> like, messages from a friend on IM
<sabdfl> pidgin supports that, and a few others do too
<sabdfl> we have no immediate plans for theming
<sabdfl> nexct?
<jcastro> <vensign> QUESTION: What do you think is the importance of FOSS gaming for the adoption of Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> vensign: i don't have any good ideas for how to drive FOSS gaming forward
<sabdfl> personally, i game on a PS3 now, so it's less important for me
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <JayBee> QUESTION: We have great support for printer drivers now, are there plans to make it easy like that to download and install scanner firmware aswell? For example, there is a website (http://www.meier-geinitz.de/sane/gt68xx-backend/) with some firmware files, Ubuntu _only_ needs to provide a mechanism to automatically fetch them and put them in the right folder?
<sabdfl> it's a good suggestion
<sabdfl> come to UDS and lead the discussion there :-)
<sabdfl> i don't know of any such plans, but it sounds like a reasonable suggestion
<sabdfl> all you need to find is the Till Kampeter of scanners
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <DKcross> jcastro,  QUESTION: Until now you have lead a great project based on the unity of the community; I'm part of the El Salvador Team and we are in desperate need of support. We understand that this is a world wide effort but... with due respect... is there any plan to improve support and response times to the community?
<sabdfl> DKcross: we can't provide direct financial support
<sabdfl> we do try to provide common infrastructure solutions
<jcastro> he means RT response time
<sabdfl> but, in a community effort, we each contribute what we can
<jcastro> I have noted it down to look into it
<sabdfl> doing more there would mean doing less elsewhere, unless you can inspire more people to participate and contribute
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <homer> QUESTION: What's the chances of Canonical convincing Adobe to port Creative Suite?
<sabdfl> homer: it is possible if we can show that enough people will buy it to make it worthwhile for them
<sabdfl> next?
<sabdfl> phew, fingers now more than warm :-)
<sabdfl> jcastro: is that a wrap? we have a little more time
<jcastro> sabdfl: it's a 2 hour session
<sabdfl> ok cool
<jcastro> but we can take 5 for everyone's fingers to cool off?
<sabdfl> okdokey
<jcastro> ok everyone, take 5 and we'll be back with more questions!
<jcastro> Please hold your questions until we start, and then if I haven't gotten to it please be patient and repeat it, thanks!
<sabdfl> ok
<jcastro> ok, welcome back everyone
<sabdfl> fire awa
<sabdfl> y
<jcastro> <gtomy> QUESTION: Mark, what is your recipe for financial, and business success? What is the key of succes in your opinion?
<sabdfl> doing the things you are passionate about
<sabdfl> i was reading in new scientist about training and sports
<sabdfl> basically, they were saying that the people who are successful are the people who love to train
<sabdfl> makes sense
<sabdfl> i think that's true of everything
<sabdfl> if it feels like PLAY to you, you'll do it a lot, and then you are training
<sabdfl> nobody can tell you what the Next Big Thing is
<sabdfl> if you're interested in that, don't listen to the headlines, they are too late by far
<sabdfl> just find the thing you are most interested in
<sabdfl> and find a way to make a life out of that
<sabdfl> you will do better at it, measuring better by "mastery and fulfillment"
<sabdfl> then don't read adverts that tell you better is anything else
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <sirderigo> QUESTION: what do you think about developing a web-base configuration tool for both desktop and server?
<sabdfl> i think there are quite a few efforts to achieve that
<sabdfl> e-box?
<sabdfl> it's not an area i would invest in
<sabdfl> but if you're interested in it, go for it!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <drw_> QUESTION: Are there any plans to incorporate GNOME-Do into the desktop?
<sabdfl> isn't it already there?
<sabdfl> i saw it on a fresh UNR install recently, so thought it was there by default
<sabdfl> it's great work, the project leader is now on the design team working on Ayatana
<sabdfl> so, expect more good stuff
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <LaserJock> QUESTION: How important is it that Ubuntu has a quality education offering? Are schools, students, and children the way to gain mainstream adoption of Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> yes, i think education is important
<sabdfl> i wish we saw more participation in edubuntu, and adoption of it directly
<sabdfl> there are many enormous deployments of ubuntu for education, but they tend to use vanilla ubuntu and then customise it themselves
<sabdfl> perhaps this is an area that will open up again in future as more governments get serious about free software
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <camahuetos> QUESTION: What are the consecuenses for Canonical and Ubuntu ofthe agreement between Microsoft and Garmin about Fat32 thinking about the one thing everybody is talking about: Mono and Microsoft patents over some core technologies behind it?
<sabdfl> i think Linux was not the main focus of that dispute
<sabdfl> so, we have yet to see how it would work out in court, or what's important to Microsoft
<sabdfl> i don't see any benefit to Microsoft in launching an IP assault
<sabdfl> they are far more vulnerable to an IP war than most companies
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <oldman> QUESTION: are there any plans to offer landscape as a service that can be deployed internally in the enterprise? (rather than requiring external access to canonical) https://landscape.canonical.com/
<sabdfl> yes, there are three beta sites for that
<sabdfl> contact ken.drachnik@canonical.com if you want to know more
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <lukeen1> QUESTION: what about a seperated LTS version? so normal users have the latest software while LTS-users get more stability.
<sabdfl> lukeen1: by separated, you mean, a different timing?
<jcastro> I think so
<sabdfl> something released outside the normal 6-month cycle?
<sabdfl> we already do many things differently in an LTS cycle
<sabdfl> they are subtle but important
<sabdfl> and I am hoping that we will see broad community interest in the idea of LTS releases, especially upstream
<sabdfl> hence http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/288
<sabdfl> i would encourage you to discuss that with key upstreams you are interested in, to see if THEY are willing to converge around an LTS cycle
<sabdfl> that's the only way to address this, properly
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <zoopster> QUESTION: How do you see the new Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud competing in the enterprise against the likes of 3Tera and Abiquo?
<sabdfl> i think many management infrastructures (rightscale etc) can work with UEC
<sabdfl> I assume 3Tera and Abiquo could do the same
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <tgm4883> QUESTION: What are your thoughts on adding a media center app (xbmc, elisa, boxee, etc) to the live CD.  Is the problem a space issue or something else?
<sabdfl> i haven't been part of any discussions about that, so am not well briefed :-)
<sabdfl> i don't know what the constraints are. has there been a UDS discussion about that before?
<jcastro> I don't think so
<jcastro> there are a bunch of media center things
 * jcastro notes it down
<sabdfl> if not, I would suggest proposing it for UDS-Barcelona and leading the discussion
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <drw_> QUESTION: What do you think is the biggest weakness of 9.04?
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <zoopster> QUESTION: Are their plans on integrating Opennebula with Eucalyptus? or doing more with Opennebula?
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> missed the previous q
<sabdfl> biggest weakness of 9.04?
<sabdfl> some graphics driver glitches, and the fact that we never got kerneloops in
<sabdfl> but nothing major
<sabdfl> 9.10 will be a little crazy, with graphical boot and big changes to X
<sabdfl> so i'm glad 9.04 is so solid
<sabdfl> opennebula...
<sabdfl> i know the server team is looking at it in detail
<sabdfl> it would be important to have great collaboration between eucalyptus and opennebula if we decided to do that
<sabdfl> UDS will be the place for detailed discussion and decisions on that front
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Mark, you can send the disk with Ubuntu 9.10, or 10.04 with his autograph to me? Please
<jcastro> :)
<sabdfl> come to UDS and I'll happily autograph a CD there :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <tgm4883> QUESTION:  Is there work being done with companies (I'm looking at you Dell) to offer Ubuntu at the same time as Windows?  I still can't get a mini 10 with ubuntu on it.
<sabdfl> yes, that is coming
<sabdfl> but it's a huge effort
<sabdfl> you can, however, get a version of Ubuntu that is not a complete resource hog, or 6 years old :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <boredandblogging> QUESTION: where do you see the netbook market headed? are there vendors expected to roll out UNR?
<sabdfl> boredandblogging: a few more vendors will announce UNR devices, that i'm aware of
<sabdfl> which is great
<sabdfl> it's turned out to be very popular with people who have bought devices that had various custom versions of linux on it
<sabdfl> we are actively developing it, and adding features which will be unique to the vendors when they ship, but which will then migrate into the subsequent Ubuntu releases
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <zaidka> QUESTION: As software gets bigger and bigger, when do you think Ubuntu will ditch the live CD and go for a live DVD
<sabdfl> zaidka: the discipline of the CD has served us well
<sabdfl> i think USB sticks are more interesting than DVD's, personally
<sabdfl> if we could put everything on, we would not have such interesting choices to make :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <rabbit251> jcastro: QUESTION: Do you see Wine (and Windows-compatibilty in general) or native Linux ports as the more important ingredient in the success of Ubuntu, or do they each play an important role?
<sabdfl> they both play an important role
<sabdfl> but fundamentally, the free software ecosystem needs to thrive on its own rules
<sabdfl> it is *different* to the proprietary software universe
<sabdfl> we need to make a success of our own platform on our own terms
<sabdfl> if Linux is just another way to run Windows apps, we can't win
<sabdfl> OS/2 tried that
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <nixternal> jcastro: QUESTION: Do you think Kubuntu is a blue headed step child that every seems to think it is? If not, can you put the rumours to rest, with possibly a song or a lovely poem letting everyone know just how much you really love us over in the Kubuntu community?
<sabdfl> oh dea
<sabdfl> r
<sabdfl> this question makes me rather sad, because i don't know what else i could do
<sabdfl> i worked out the other day that i personally spend more than $2m a year supporting Kubuntu and KDE
<sabdfl> and yet those communities think it's cool to act unloved
<sabdfl> i think the Kubuntu community's work is amazing, and they should be proud of it
<sabdfl> there's no need to make out like it's against the forces of corporate indifference
<sabdfl> when in fact I and many others bend a long way to make it possible
<sabdfl> that's about enough on the subject
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: What would you say is the biggest barrier to widespread Ubuntu adoption? (By widespread, I mean a market share >30%)
<sabdfl> delivering an amazing end user experience
<sabdfl> ubuntu is good enough for those of us who choose it, as it gets better, more will choose it
<sabdfl> our weakest points are the basic user experience (it feels fragmented and disjointed sometimes)
<sabdfl> multimedia because of patents
<sabdfl> and hardware support
<sabdfl> i'm working on user experience with the Ayatana team
<sabdfl> and hardware support is improving steadily as industry learns to love linux
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <thegrieve_> jcastro: QUESTION: If for some crazy and unimaginable  reason, the use of the words ubuntu and canonical  (and all associated branding) was no longer  possible, what would you like to rename the company/distro
<sabdfl> Wonderful and Wonderful, Inc
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <dantalizing> jcastro: QUESTION: Are there plans for Ubuntu Server certifications, or to expand the existing Ubuntu Certified Professional program?
<sabdfl> yup
<sabdfl> the server is the focus of a set of new training programs
<sabdfl> virtual training courses are available
<sabdfl> http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=21
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <snap-l> QUESTION: A lot of Ubuntu developers are on identi.ca. Do you have an account, and if not, would you create one and start using it?
<sabdfl> i have one but i forgot the password
<sabdfl> i tweet, rarely, as sabdfl
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <drw_> QUESTION: Will Ubuntu only truly begin to compete with the likes of Apple when the project can dictate hardware specs to manufacturers?  Is catering for so many different forms of hardware a realistic approach long-term?
<sabdfl> yes, i think we need to work with the full range of hardware, not narrow the focus to a subset as Apple does
<sabdfl> it works well for them, don't think it would work for us
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: In the USA, the power of the Lobbyist in the government is very strong.  Do you know of any equal organizations that use Lobbyist to influence politics to a Open Source direction?
<sabdfl> amber, is that you?
<jcastro> I don't think it is
<sabdfl> koinkidink
<sabdfl> it's true that government policy is largely driven by established interest groups
<sabdfl> that's true all over the world, as a rule
<sabdfl> unfortunately, those who have been successful in the past are better positioned to try to defend that, than those who might be successful in the future are positioned to keep the playing field level
<sabdfl> so, patents get extended, copyright gets extended, open source gets pushed back
<sabdfl> but a good idea can't be kept down indefinitely
<sabdfl> so, we just need to focus on delivering incrementally better releases
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro>  Does Canonical have plans for Kubuntu QA, similar to the work that Ara is doing now?
<sabdfl> if we had a partner wanting to do a Kubuntu-based device, then we would
<sabdfl> i believe the the process is open, and hope community members would step up for Kubuntu if it were important to them
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: What is your favorite FOSS game?
<sabdfl> nethack! never ascended.
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> we're down to a few more
<jcastro>  <homer> QUESTION: Vim or Emacs?
<sabdfl> vim!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <leviathan_> QUESTION: I'm working in a lot of projects, for exemple Debian, Gentoo, OpenMoko, etc. and they have all one problem: they loose their developers to Ubuntu and his community. This community is more an more sponsered by commercial enterprises like IBM and SUN. Is it possible that the whole OpenSourceCommunity around linux could get commercialized trough Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> i'm not sure i understand the question
<jcastro> I will ask a rephrase
<jcastro> <boredandblogging> QUESTION: whats going to be the next big thing after the cloud?
<sabdfl> (05:04:55 PM) sabdfl: nobody can tell you what the Next Big Thing is
<sabdfl> not even me :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> <BUGabundo> QUESTION: once on google, you said Canonical planed to drop support to Ubuntu from 90% to 10%. how is that going? Are there more companies and Communities behind it now then there where 3 years ago?
<sabdfl> if you mean, that Canonical would be a smaller part of the Ubuntu ecosystem, yes, there are now more companies that participate
<sabdfl> but Canonical remains by far the biggest
<sabdfl> there are many more companies USING ubuntu now, but few providing dedicated developers or contributors in other areas
<sabdfl> we'll have to see how that unfolds
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <aquarius> QUESTION: deals with big companies (Dell, Toshiba, etc) to sell machines with Ubuntu on are great; is there anything the community can do to help with that (other than "make Ubuntu fantastic!") or does it need to be all conference room discussions between partners and Canonical?
<sabdfl> buy the machines and encourage others to do the same. nothing will accelerate it more than commercial success for the hardware companies who do take the Ubuntu plunge.
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <homer> QUESTION: Do you plan to ever go public with Canonical
<sabdfl> that's one option, yes, but it's not in any way a focus for me now
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <popey> QUESTION: Recent surveys indicate that of those switching from XP but _not_ to Windows 7, 27% would go to OSX and 25% would go to Ubuntu, with Red Hat, Suse, and others below. What do we need to do to overtake OSX?
<sabdfl> 2%?
<sabdfl> ;-)
<sabdfl> i thought that was an AMAZING result, btw
<sabdfl> credit to the whole community for that
<sabdfl> mostly, i think we need to stand up and be proud
<sabdfl> encourage all of our family and friends to make the switch to free software and promise to stand by them throughout
<sabdfl> since WE are mostly the people who support them, anyhow :-)
<sabdfl> we do need to deliver classy, tight, useful software
<sabdfl> so bring the lessons of Web 2.0 to the desktop
<sabdfl> lean, mean, fast and easy to use
<sabdfl> and we will do well
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <greg-g> QUESTION: I think it is a good thing that Canonical Inc. doesn't inject its services into the community very much (keeping the corporate out of the community, at least visibly, is good), but that means that some IT managers, out of ignorance, don't use Ubuntu because there is no commercial support contracts.  How do we harmonize the two?
<sabdfl> greg-g: if anyone says they would be more interested in ubuntu if there was support, point them at http://www.canonical.com/services/support
<sabdfl> we are reworking the Canonical web site, and then will get to the Ubuntu web site, and yes, we could make this supported element clearer
<sabdfl> we have to do that without compromising the community involvement in Ubuntu - it's not just a Canonical effort
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> waiting for a question ...
<jcastro> <dinda> QUESTION:  Kindle sales jumped through the roof when selected as one of Oprah's favorite things - when will we see you promoting Ubuntu on the Oprah TV show?  can we send her a Netbook with UNR?
<sabdfl> anything more from leviathan_?
<sabdfl> what a great idea :-)
<sabdfl> go for it!
<jcastro> <leviathan_> QUESTION: in the debian community were creating packaged, which get taken by ubuntu. visversa we get packeges back, but with a low quality. don't you think its on the time to get some standarts into ubuntu?
<sabdfl> leviathan_: spelling standards?
<sabdfl> i think your question is based on the assumption that ubuntu == bad
<sabdfl> if you see the world through a filter, you will only see things that agree with that filter
<sabdfl> in your previous question, I *think* you were saying that "ubuntu is bad because lots of developers are moving to ubuntu from other projects"
<sabdfl> so, i don't know how to engage with you
<sabdfl> i feel ubuntu provides a fantastic service to the free software community as a whole
<sabdfl> as Tridge said, hundreds of thousands of free software developers get to work on their software without ever having to think about the OS, because Ubuntu makes it easy
<sabdfl> i think that's valuable, and i'm proud of it
<sabdfl> as for quality, well, I know the team cares enormously about quality, and work insanely hard to achieve that
<sabdfl> the QA processes in Ubuntu make me proud, the QA team are fantastic, the bugsquad are unstoppable, the Bug Days and Hug Days are what make this project a pleasure to be part of
<sabdfl> if you've decided that it suits your view of the world to say that "Ubuntu is bad", then so be it
<sabdfl> but, if that's not true then you are doing yourself a disservice
<sabdfl> this would be a more interesting discussion if you could speak in this channel i just realised :-)
<sabdfl> so, feel free to privmsg me and we can talk further
<sabdfl> but, in summary, this community cares about free software and about quality
<sabdfl> and i would encourage you to look for real evidence if people say otherwise
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <akgraner> QUESTION:  Would Canonical ever consider employing upstream developers for the areas that Ubuntu considers key like wireless or graphics?
<jcastro> a few more so we have time to reset the channel for Docs Day!
<sabdfl> yes, we have done so in the past and have job offers out for additional posts too
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <txwikinger_work> Question: How do you think more and more FLOSS developer can be able to do what they are passionate about while also provide for their families. Do you think there are more opportunities employed and as entrepreneurs for this?
<jcastro> one more after this ...
<sabdfl> i think y ou can get paid more if you advertise Linux skills than if you advertise Windows skills
<sabdfl> it's certainly a premium offering
<sabdfl> if you are passionate about FLOSS, then i would definitely urge you to work on, or with, free software in your day job
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> <Froad_> QUESTION: A new announcement by Microsoft says there will be Open Office support in Office 2007, do you think that one way to gain users is to make Microsoft Adapt to us?
<sabdfl> Froad_: i'm glad that they will do this, but i hear the support is terrible
<sabdfl> i think we should rather push harder for open document standards
<sabdfl> the ISO standards process was embarrassing last year
<sabdfl> we have this amazing thing - the web - built entirely on an open format
<sabdfl> and yet .doc lives in the dark ages
<sabdfl> purely because governments and companies chickened out of demanding that openness
<sabdfl> if we demand openness, then we'll get a better long term result
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> that's all we have time for
<jcastro> any last comments?
<sabdfl> phew
<sabdfl> this was fun
<sabdfl> thanks everyone!
<jcastro> (the brutal 2 hour assault is over)
<sabdfl> best wishes to everyone
<Ireyon> great session ;)
<jcastro> thanks everyone!
<JFo> thanks sabdfl
<jerms> chat logs available anywhere ?
 * carthik hugs sabdfl
<sirdiego> thanks mark (=
<kusanagi> thanks sabdfl
<czajkowski> sabdfl: nice session
<thegrieve> thanks mark
<zaidka> thanks jcastro, sabdfl
<jussi01> whats up next?
<Shane_Fagan> Thanks mark
<koolhead17> hmm
<TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks sabdfl
<charlie-tca> A big thanks to sabdfl and jcastro
<artir> thanks mark
<thegrieve> thanks jcastro for moderating
<jcastro> jerms: they will be available soon on the page in the topic
<Akallabeth> thanks Mark
<ccc_dustin> Thanks Mark!
<miles2> mark - thanks for everything!
<snap-l> Thank you, sabdfl
<jussi01> Thanks sabdfl!
<khensthoth> Thanks!
<sirdiego> hatlog here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/AskMark
<sirdiego> c
<camahuetos> thanks
<rabbit251> Thanks, Mark!
<BUGabundo> thanks sabdfl  and jcastro
 * RainCT hugs sabdfl :)
<JayBee> thanks sabdfl
<riorio> yeah, keep rocking sabdfl
<sea-gull> thank you, Mark!
<pdragon> thanks!
<txwikinger_work> thanks sabdfl
<unimatrix9> keep up the spirit and the good work, we enjoy it daily!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1700 UTC: Creating LoCo Resources  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rufong> ty sabdfl
<indSpike> Thanks sabdfl
<jcastro> ok guys, 5 minute break until the next session
<JackWat|Lap> Thanks sabdfl
 * goshawk hugs sabdfl
<indSpike> Thanks sabdfl
<kusanagi> when will be upload sirdiego?
<sabdfl> yo guys all rock
<goshawk> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> thanks jcastro for chairing a great session
<jussi01> jcastro: do you need a rest? I can take over as questioner if needed?
<koolhead17> so is that everytime happens?
<sirdiego> kusanagi: i dont know, the logs from yesterday are all on atm
<doctormo> Yes, yes, we all rock :-) thanks everyone for some good questions, I loved reading the answers to them.
<kusanagi> keep it up sabdfl ;)
<jcastro> jussi01: I'll likely step out for lunch in a minute after Adi takes over
<jcastro> jussi01: if he needs help then sure!
<jussi01> jcastro: ok :)
<bencrisford1> nice one sabdfl :)
<kusanagi> jcastro, when will be the log up in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/AskMark?
<jcastro> adiroiban: you can +m the channel if you want, but everyone was well behaved yesterday and we didn't think it was necessary, up to you
<jussi01> adiroiban: Im around to assist if needed.
<ccc_dustin> good work jcastro
<jcastro> kusanagi: ausimage has been doing the logs nearly-realtime, he's probably pasting right now. :D
<bigbrovar> jcastro: where can i obtain the log files for the session?
<adiroiban> ok
<jcastro> ok guys, please move discussion to -chat
<jcastro> take it away adiroiban!
<adiroiban> ok. Hi guys and girls and welcome to the next session
<adiroiban> My name is Adi Roiban and I am coordinating the Romanian LoCo team.
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
<A4Tech1> thanks sabdfl!
<adiroiban> During the next minutes I will try to touch some of the aspect of creating some resources for your LoCo team.
<adiroiban> First of all, let's make sure everyone know what is a LoCo Team.
<A4Tech1> sabdfl: I hope when someone come to you at the summit :)
<adiroiban> LoCo Team are Ubuntu Local Communities Team.  Their coverage can vary from a city local communities to country wide local communities.
<adiroiban> Like I said above, this session is dedicate to LoCo team, but even if you are not the LoCo contact, or you are not yet a member of LoCo team, you should find a lot of useful information in this session.
<adiroiban> Also if you are planning to start a new LoCo team this session should help you do the first steps.
<adiroiban> if you don't know what I LoCo is, feel free to ask on the -chat channel
<adiroiban> I will continue, assuming everyone knows what Ubuntu Local Communities are
<Kangarooo>   Docs Day - Working on the Help Wiki - MatthewEast / Rocket2DMn  right now yes? :)
<doctormo> no Kangarooo, 1 hour
<Kangarooo> yes I know im shure many loco leaders/contact persons are her :)
<Kangarooo> so now  Docs Day - Translating Documentation - MatthewEast / AdiRoiban  ?
<adiroiban> Kangarooo: please use the chat channel
<charlie-tca> Kangarooo: ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<adiroiban> and check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Kangarooo> yes I came here from that link
<adiroiban> Second, let's see what do I (we) mean by LoCo resources.
<tgm4883> adiroiban, jcastro set +m  ?
<adiroiban> They consist of all kind of things that can you your LoCo do it's job or achieve a specific goal.
<adiroiban> LoCo resources can consist of people, computers, printers, web presence, friends ... don't think only at material things like a server or a printer. As you will find out, friends are invaluable resources for your LoCo.
<adiroiban> I will try to touch some of the main resources for your LoCo and after that I hope we will have time for running a questions and answers session.
<adiroiban> Also if you are already running a LoCo team, feel free to share best practices with the rest of us :) We'll be very happy to hear from you and this session will have a part dedicate to this.
<adiroiban> OK. So let's start. Number 1. People.
<adiroiban> Any LoCo should start it's activity by finding people willing to help with various LoCo actions. People are one of the most hard to find resources and you should never stop looking after great people to join your LoCo.
<adiroiban> When you are starting, or restarting a LoCo, don't be disappointed if nobody will answer to your first call.
<adiroiban>  Try to keep the LoCo active, and people will join you on the road.
<adiroiban> Even if you are only one or two persons try to fix some goals according to your capabilities.
<adiroiban> Don't set the goals to high
<adiroiban> and start with baby steps :)
<adiroiban> Also be prepare to lead by examples, most people will be reluctant at first, but once they will see that things get moving you will gain their trust and will start helping the LoCo.
<adiroiban> once your team gets some people you shoud start building a web presence
<adiroiban> if at first nobody will join you
<adiroiban> don't despair and start some activities
<adiroiban> and start working at the web presence
<mfitzhugh>  /LOG OPEN -targets #ubuntu-classroom ~/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-%Y-%m-%d
<mfitzhugh> oops! sorry
<adiroiban> ï»¿QUESTION: what is the purpose and duties of LoCo teams?
<adiroiban> LoCo teams should help promove Ubuntu into your local comunity
<adiroiban> you can do release parties,
<adiroiban> install parties
<adiroiban> make radio or tv shows
<adiroiban> dedicated to Ubuntu and free software
<adiroiban> there is not a specific set of actions of duties
<adiroiban> each team is free to do what it consider is the best way they can help Ubuntu
<adiroiban> ok. I will continue with information about creating a web presence for your team
<adiroiban>  Building your LoCo web presence.
<adiroiban> n many cases, creating a web presence should be the first thing to do for your LoCo.
<adiroiban> You can chose a static or a dynamic website. On the Ubuntu Wiki you can find some template that can help you with building the website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates
<adiroiban> While creating your LoCo website , always check the legal part of using Ubuntu logo and trademark.
<adiroiban> Don't forget to mention that your loco is not affiliated with Canonical.
<adiroiban> Also, if you will create a logo for your LoCo, please check with the Canonical Trademark Policy.
<adiroiban> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<adiroiban> Please consult the Trademark Policy and make sure you are not breaking are law :D
<adiroiban> There were a lot of discussion about trademark and I will like to stress out this part
<dohkogt> o/
<adiroiban> If you chose to use drupal for building your website take a look at the Ubuntu LoCo Drupal Theme
<adiroiban> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme .
<adiroiban> There is also a dedicated channel #ubuntu-drupal
<adiroiban> dohkogt: please use the -chat channel
<adiroiban> The main goal for creating a loco website should be to create a web presence for your team.
<adiroiban> Ubuntu and Canonical already have a strong web presence so dedicated huge sections of you website to Canonical and Ubuntu will not be of much help.
<adiroiban> I'm not saying that you should not mention Ubuntu and Canonical, not at all, but try to focus on your LoCo.
<adiroiban> Describe the team, create a webpage listing current  activities and goals, a page dedicated to past activites, a page listing past and current members.
<adiroiban> The most important part of the website should be the one describing you other people can contact and interact with the team.
<adiroiban> Don't forget to put some pictures from your past activities. People love them and a picture is worth thousand words :)
<adiroiban> feel free to ask questions about the loco website and trademark and legalese stuff
<adiroiban> ï»¿zaidka: adiroiban, QUESTION: Maintaining a LoCo team sounds like it needs a lot of money. Does Ubuntu support that? If not, what's the benefit for the LoCo teams to financially support it?
<adiroiban> You can see working in a LoCo team as a way to give back something to Ubuntu
<adiroiban> The web presence should not cost a lot
<adiroiban> you can ask for hosting from the Ubuntu Community
<adiroiban> but I suggest to try finding a locol hosting company, willing to sponsor with the hosting of your website
<adiroiban> ï»¿akgraner: QUESTION:  While reviewing the trademark and other legal issues once a LoCo thinks they have all their ducks in a row is there a person who can look over it to make sure it's good to go before a LoCo goes live with a website?
<adiroiban> You can ask the opinion of some Canonical stuff
<adiroiban> but this is a time consuming job
<adiroiban> try to compli with the policy according to your understanding
<adiroiban> if something is not ok, someone will warn you
<adiroiban> don't worry, you will not get into jail or receive a fine
<adiroiban> or something like that
<adiroiban> the website should be a static part of your loco activities
<adiroiban> don't limit your loco action
<adiroiban> the loco website should be a way to help your loco activities
<adiroiban> not an activity by itself
<adiroiban> Keeping people in touch should be a main concern while running the team.
<adiroiban> You should consider both online and offline communication.
<adiroiban> Online communication could help you if the community is a covering a wide geographic area.
<adiroiban> I will start with the online communication channels
<adiroiban> as they are one of the easiest to obtain
<adiroiban> tradition communication channels include mailing lists and IRC channels
<adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/
<adiroiban> here you can see a list of other loco mailing list
<adiroiban> and info about how to get your list
<adiroiban> for the irc channel, try starting a channel named #ubuntu-CC (country/city code)
<adiroiban> "moder" communication channels include twiter and blogs
<jonnor>  /j #ubuntu-no
<adiroiban> also there is a good idea to hang in your country ubuntu channel
<adiroiban> rather than the global #ubuntu
<adiroiban> also consider using identi.ca and join the ubuntu channel from identi.ca :)
<adiroiban> even if online communication is easy to achive
<adiroiban> you and your loco should try to create mean for offline meetings and communitions
<adiroiban> for example meet in a town
<adiroiban> at a conference
<adiroiban> of other events
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<adiroiban> if you plan to do an event at a confernce, don't forget about the above webpage
<adiroiban> also your LoCo can request a special CD pack from here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingCds
<adiroiban> In case you are running a city or small area community , then creating offline meeting will be a lot easier.
<adiroiban> Othere wise I suggest to "hijack" other event for creating loco meetings
<adiroiban> Like I said, conferences or lan parties should be great events for meeting people
<adiroiban> and exchanging ideas
<adiroiban> If your team grows big you can consider creating a dedicated planet for member of your loco team or your local community.
<adiroiban> ï»¿Here  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates you can find an Ubuntu template for PlanetPlanet.
<adiroiban> on the same https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates you will find some thems for forums or discussion board
<adiroiban> boards
<adiroiban> last but not least , friends are one of the most valuable resource for you and your team
<adiroiban> There is not to much I can share with you regarding this, but don't forget that friend are invaluable resources for you and for your LoCo :)
<adiroiban> For example a local radio dj can help you with some advertising for your Ubuntu Release Party. A friend at the local copy/print shop can help you with some posters/stickers... etc
<adiroiban> OK. Like you could read above, I tried to share with you some of the best practices I gather while running the Romanian LoCo team.
<adiroiban> ï»¿rrnwexec: QUESTION: What would you consider "best practices" for marketing a LoCo?
<adiroiban> Try to make your LoCo team useful for your community
<adiroiban> for example create a useful support forum
<adiroiban> then everyone will talk about it
<adiroiban> and will know it is runned by the LoCo team
<adiroiban> also be part of all major free software events in your area
<adiroiban> this will help your loco being know in the area
<adiroiban> but in my opinion the best "marketing" strategy for your LoCo is by doing useful things for your community
<adiroiban> for example the Romanial Loco has translated a big part of the Ubuntu and GNOMe documentation and Ubuntu Training Course
<adiroiban> and people start using those materials in schools
<adiroiban> in this way, young people find about our loco team
<adiroiban> ï»¿ rrnwexec: QUESTION: Any thoughts about how best to harmonize/partner with local Linux User Groups who aren't necessarily interested in Ubuntu, but are interested in GNU/Linux and freedom?
<adiroiban> good question
<adiroiban> you should first have a physical talk with the leaders of those communities
<adiroiban> and exchange some idea about what you can do
<adiroiban> It's not always easy as people are proud about their own community
<adiroiban> so you should have a wise chat and explain them that a colloboration will help both communities
<adiroiban> I think that for collaborating with other groups/lugs
<adiroiban> you should first meet those people
<adiroiban> as the online chat is so cold
<adiroiban> other than that I don't know what to say
<adiroiban> this is what I done in Romania
<adiroiban> after meeting people from other communities we start working togheer
<adiroiban> before that there were only flame wars :D
<adiroiban> the collaboration should be bases on trust
<adiroiban> so you must assure that your Loco is trusted by other communities
<adiroiban> Is there anyone willing to share some best practices withing his/her LoCo team?
<adiroiban> ï»¿QUESTION: How proficient should I be before I consider starting a LoCo? Can a LoCo be a "learn as we go" project, or should it have at least one wildly skilled member?
<adiroiban> you should learn as you go
<adiroiban> we learn something new everyday
<adiroiban> if you have a skilled member it will help a lot
<adiroiban> but this does not mean that an unskiles person can do a great job and improve it's skils over time
<adiroiban> if you don't have experience try to set some small goals
<adiroiban> and ask for help from other teams
<adiroiban> we have the #ubuntu-locoteams
<adiroiban> and the mailing loco contact mailinglist
<adiroiban> feel free to join and ask for help
<adiroiban> as there are a lot of knowledgable persons there
<adiroiban> ï»¿rrnwexec: ADVICE: Best practice in Vancouver... treat all members equally. Don't get all hung up on organization and bureaucracy. The best ideas usually come from the new members.
<adiroiban> ï»¿ rrnwexec: ADVICE: Best practice in Vancouver... Constantly look for ways to keep long-time members energized. This helps prevent the attrition issue that has fallen on other Linux communities.
<adiroiban> ï»¿lukeen: QUESTION: how many people should a loco have? is there a minimum? whats average? what makes sense?
<adiroiban> depending of your community
<adiroiban> there are small or big communities
<adiroiban> but don't judge a loco by it's number
<adiroiban> ï»¿jonnor: QUESTION: Communities usually centers around something. Apart from FOSS/Ubuntu, what does LoCos usually center around?
<adiroiban> yes. People
<adiroiban> like I said , the FOSS/Ubuntu should be a way to help people from your local community
<adiroiban> this is what local communities are all about
<adiroiban> it's like helping your neighbour
<adiroiban> ok.
<adiroiban> thank you very much for your presence and attention
<koolhead17> ?
 * goshawk hugs adiroiban
<adiroiban> I think we whould end this session
<adiroiban> and let's prepare for the wonderful Ubuntu Doc Day
<JPohlmann> adiroiban: Well done :)
<adiroiban> which is about to start
<akgraner> Thanks adiroiban!
 * Mean-Machine shakes adiroiban's hand 
<Mean-Machine> nice one
<DougieRichardson> Hi everyone and welcome to Docs Day
<DougieRichardson> We've got five slots today and hope to cover most everything that the Documentation Team does
<DougieRichardson> I'll start by introducing myself
<DougieRichardson> I'm Dougie and up until I joined the Doc's team I'd had no experience at all with writing documentation or using DocBook
<DougieRichardson> I maintain the Internet and Networking sections of the System Help but help out in other areas too
<mib_0oi9gt> is the q and a with mark over?
<DougieRichardson> There are five sessions tonight - an intro
<DougieRichardson> Translations
<DougieRichardson> A session on adding and working with the community help wiki
<DougieRichardson> Getting the docs and using Bzr
<DougieRichardson> and lastly working with DocBook
<DougieRichardson> DocBook is an XML markup language that is used not only in Ubuntu's help but upstream too
<DougieRichardson> Documentation in Ubuntu is split into two main areas
<DougieRichardson> The system help, which you access through Yelp
<DougieRichardson> And the community contributed documentation which is available at http://help.ubuntu.com/community
<DougieRichardson> There are two types because we want to offer a full range of help to everyone, which is where the wiki is useful
<DougieRichardson> and having more commonly asked tasks available without an internet connection
<DougieRichardson> Subjects such as connecting to the internet is obviously needed offline!
<DougieRichardson> The system help is split into sections and is available for different flavours of Ubuntu
<DougieRichardson> it is written using DocBook XML, which is a markup language.
<DougieRichardson> We are often asked why we use this but there are advantages to it - it can be easily processed into other formats
<DougieRichardson> Such as HTML and PDF
<DougieRichardson> Which allows us to generate the same information for access on the internet
<DougieRichardson> Upstream also uses the same format, so we can share our documentation upstream too.
<DougieRichardson> The community documentation wiki is editable by anyone with a Launchpad account
<DougieRichardson> The wiki is seperate to http:/wiki.ubuntu.com which is only for team use
<DougieRichardson> Its an ideal place for new contributers to start, because it is very accessible and the syntax is simpler than XML
<DougieRichardson> The documentation team is organised into three teams
<DougieRichardson> Ubuntu documentation contributers
<DougieRichardson> Who can: edit wiki pages, traige and report bugs, contribute patches and participate in the teams discussions
<DougieRichardson> we particularly welcome discussion from new contributers so we can produce the sort of documentation that is actually asked for
<DougieRichardson> We have Ubuntu documentation commiters, which are much the same as contributers except they have displayed understanding of the tool chain and have access to the ubuntu-docs package, so can commit changes.
<DougieRichardson> Lastly, we have Ubuntu documentation wiki admins who again do the same as contributers but have displayed a strong understanding of the wiki (in particualr deletion and the effects of renaming pages) and have access to delete and rename pages.
<DougieRichardson> Joining the team is easy - just apply on Launchpad and introduce yourself on the mailing list
<DougieRichardson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> and the ML is https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> The team has members from all over the world so with difference in time zones tends to do most of its discussion via the mailing list.
<DougieRichardson> We do hold meetings though whenever possible and anyon is welcome to join us on IRC #ubuntu-doc on this very server
<DougieRichardson> So where do you get started?
<DougieRichardson> The best place to start is by checking out current bugs
<DougieRichardson> There are four pages used, one for each Ubuntu
<DougieRichardson> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs
<DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
<DougieRichardson>       http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/edubuntu-docs
<DougieRichardson> Pick a bug, assign it to yourself and get fixing!
<DougieRichardson> There are several guides available on our team site and there is the newly produced Playbook
<DougieRichardson> (I'll cover this more later)
<DougieRichardson> Fixing bugs is fairly straightforward, most bugs are simply typos or corrections for new versions
<DougieRichardson> Once you have the source (which Matthew will cover at 2100 UTC)
<DougieRichardson> You can look over the docs and change the errant strings.
<DougieRichardson> What if you're more interested in the wiki?
<DougieRichardson> There are a list of areas that need work in the Wiki
<DougieRichardson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<DougieRichardson> Sorry, wrong: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<DougieRichardson> The wiki has a lot of pages that need cleaned up
<DougieRichardson> There is a lot of information that should be moved from the team wiki to the help wiki
<DougieRichardson> Articles that need expanding
<DougieRichardson> And we're always keen to integrate some of the fantastic howtos and guides that are available on the Ubuntu Forums into the help wiki
<DougieRichardson> This release cycle, we have three new initiatives to announce too.
<DougieRichardson> First, we are producing a series of "Playbooks", single A4 PDF covering our tool chain and processes
<DougieRichardson> The first is available and has already been used by new members to submit patches!
<DougieRichardson> Its available from my personal web site at the moment and once the others are available will be moved onto Launchpad and linked from the team site: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
<DougieRichardson> I'd love it if this was passed around as much as possible, even better if it was printed out and distributed at LoCo events, or your work/college wherever.
<DougieRichardson> We are now accepting submissions for larger articles as plain text without markup.
<DougieRichardson> An Ubuntu Documentation Commiter will wrap it in XML and push it to the branch.
<DougieRichardson> We appreciate that not everyone has the time or interest to learn XML so we're happy to offer this for large submissions.
<DougieRichardson> We are running a series of IRC lessons
<DougieRichardson> The first of which will be announced soon on our mailing list and on the Planet.
<DougieRichardson> I'll be taking a bug on Launchpad and go through all the steps to fix it in slow time, providing a recap sheet at the end.
<DougieRichardson> These lessons will be staggered so that different time zones can benefit too.
<DougieRichardson> Lastly we are introducing "Doc Days" - much likethe QA team has done, we will nominate an area, particularly of the wiki and try and achieve as much community participation as possible in that area on a single day.
<DougieRichardson> Again this will be announced soon via the mailing list and via the Planet
<DougieRichardson> There is also a large push towards revamping the current switching from windows guide to a new installation guide
<DougieRichardson> Any contributions to this effort will be very much appreciated, where we intend to try and gather the most common installation problems
<DougieRichardson> and cover them - so we need as many installation problems as possible reported!
<DougieRichardson> Submit any problems you've found to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide#Common%20problems%20for%20the%20Troubleshooting%20section
<DougieRichardson> So that pretty much wraps up the introduction to Docs Day but before I take any questions, I'd like to recap on contacting us:
<DougieRichardson> Wiki Page    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<DougieRichardson> Launchpad    https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> Mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> List archive https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/
<DougieRichardson> IRC          #ubuntu-doc on irc.freenode.net
<DougieRichardson> and that we are going to be running IRC lessons, Playbooks, Doc Days and a new installation guide.
<DougieRichardson> Lastly, please, please grab a copy of the playbook
<DougieRichardson> http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
<DougieRichardson> We're always glas to accept new contributers and contributions, no matter how small - there is a very good chance that someone is looking for the information you have!
<DougieRichardson> So I'll move on to Q&A - please, ask away!
<DougieRichardson> Question: Hi Dinda, hopefully, given our new initiatives thats a yes but I think we need to integrate these ideas fully
<dinda> ï»¿QUESTION: The "Getting Involved" section of ubuntu.com points non-technical users who wan to contribute to the docs team.  Do you really think this is the right first place for new non-technical contributors?
<dinda> repeating for the logs
<dinda> ï»¿QUESTION: Could you point us to the place to apply for membership in the doc team on Launchpad?
<DougieRichardson> Answer: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<mfitzhugh> Not to be dumb, but I'm at that page and don't see a "join" link
<dinda> QUESTION:  Can you explain the difference between the Core group and students group?
<DougieRichardson> Apologies, it should have been https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> The team name for new contributers is still "students"
<DougieRichardson> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-students
<dinda> ï»¿dinda: QUESTION:  How many new contributors would you like to see coming on board each month?  release cycle?
<DougieRichardson> Answer: I'd like to see as many as possible!
<DougieRichardson> Answer: It depends in which area people would like to help.
<DougieRichardson> QUESTION:  Is there a better time to jump into documentation?  i.e. the days before a release are prolly not the best
<dinda> ï»¿dinda: QUESTION:  Is there a better time to jump into documentation?  i.e. the days before a release are prolly not the best
<DougieRichardson> Answer: Anytime is fine, as there's always bugs to fix but you're right - the start of the new development cycle is the ideal place because it allows more time to complete IRC training and improving our tool chain
<mdke> so *now* is the ideal time!
<DougieRichardson> But at the end of the release cycle we need as many eyes on as possible to check over the docs
<DougieRichardson> Yes, like I said - please grab a playbook, join the team and we'll be happy to help
<DougieRichardson> QUESTION: so, as I see students involved in bug-hunt process mostly?
<DougieRichardson> Answer: No, we want to see students involved in fixing bugs, asking questions and making patches!
<DougieRichardson> Bug hunting is very important - especially end of cycle but with six months in hand we've can cover our tool chain and bring students up to speed.
<DougieRichardson> OK, I'm eating into mdke and adiroiban's time now so I'll finish off the Q&A
<mdke> great job DougieRichardson
<DougieRichardson> If anyone has any other question, you can contact the team or mail me direct through Launchpad.
<dinda> Thanks Dougie - great job!
<DougieRichardson> I'll finish with one link though: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
<adiroiban> great session :)
<adiroiban> next session will be about Translating Ubuntu Docs
<DougieRichardson> Thanks very much everyone
<bencrisford1> cheers dougie
<adiroiban> don't forget about #ubuntu-doc channel :)
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> My name is Adi Roiban, and I am here as a member of Ubuntu Translation Community.
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
<adiroiban> I will do this session together with Matthew East (mdke), who is coordinating Ubuntu Docs.
<mdke> hi everyone
<adiroiban> We will start with a short presentation, followed by a question and answer session.
<adiroiban> Beside this session, feel free to contact us for any question related to Ubuntu Docs Translation Process.
<adiroiban> In the following session, when I mention Ubuntu Docs I will refer to all Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu Docs
<adiroiban> First off all I will do a short introduction to Ubuntu Localization Teams and Translation process, as you can not translate the Ubuntu Docs without being aware of these things.
<adiroiban> Ubuntu Documentation is translated using the Launchpad Translations web tools
<adiroiban> Rosetta is the codename for ï»¿Launchpad Translations
<adiroiban> You can find out more about using Launchpad Translations by reading the Launchpad help pages:
<adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1900 UTC: Translating Documentation  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<adiroiban> Everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu and Ubuntu Docs into his/her language.
<adiroiban> You can start translating Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu docs by following one of these links :
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/kubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/edubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> When I said that everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu and Ubuntu Docs into his/her language, I mean that everyone can add suggestion / possible translations for an original text
<adiroiban> In Ubuntu, we have Ubuntu Localization teams, that act as Translation Quality Assurance Team.
<adiroiban> They will review and approve suggestions.
<adiroiban> If you are an active translator and you are doing a great translation job you can request to join the Ubuntu .
<adiroiban> In the following list, you can find the group appointed for your language:
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> For any questions related to the translations of Ubuntu docs into your language, please contact the team appointed to your language,
<adiroiban> Also freel free to join the general Ubuntu Translation mailinglist https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> and #ubuntu-translators and #ubuntu-doc channel
<adiroiban> Like I said, please consult the Launchpad Translations help pages, to find out how you can use it
<adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
<adiroiban> Now let's go back to things specific to translating Ubuntu Docs.
<adiroiban> First of all you should know that Ubuntu-Docs are developed using the DocBook format (an xml based format).
<adiroiban> We have a script for converting from XML to PO files.
<adiroiban> we do this, because Launchpad Translation does not support direct translations of XML files
<adiroiban> After generating the POT files, they are imported in Launchpad Translations
<adiroiban> by doing that, they will be available to translation
<adiroiban> and people from around the word will be translating Ubuntu Docs into their language.
<adiroiban> From time to time, someone , manualy export those translations from Rosetta and run another script for converting from PO back to XML.
<adiroiban> Now from each POT file, we will have a new XML file for each language.
<adiroiban> In Launchpad Translation, POT files are called "templates"
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/about-xubuntu
<adiroiban> this would be the about-xubuntu template in Launchpad
<adiroiban> also when translating Ubuntu Docs in Launchpad you will have to check the version
<adiroiban> of the ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> in the example above the about-xubuntu template, is translated for Jaunty
<adiroiban> each Ubuntu version , has a new set of Ubuntu Docs
<adiroiban> From time to time, someone , manualy export those translations from Rosetta and run another script for converting from PO back to XML. Now we will have a new XML file for each language.
<adiroiban> When we have the XML files, Matt (mdke) use them for creating an update to the ubuntu-docs packages.
<adiroiban> They are then pushed to the Ubuntu repositories and users will be able to install into their computers.
<adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs you will need to take care of various things, specific to translating xml files.
<adiroiban> I tried to create a Guide for helping you with translating Ubuntu Docs. You can find it here: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
<adiroiban> Before you start translating Ubuntu Docs, please read this guide.
<adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs, there is a great chance of making mistakes that will generate in a bad xml file.
<adiroiban> Launchpad Translations is not able to detect the translations errors from XML files
<adiroiban> To help validate the Ubuntu Docs translations I'm maintaining a webpage dedicated to Ubuntu Docs errors.
<adiroiban> From time to time I'm exporting the translations from Launchpad and generated the XML files in order to find errors.
<adiroiban> I'm announcing the updated on the Ubuntu Translators Mailinglist
<adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> For example this is the Ubuntu Docs Jaunty report page:
<adiroiban> http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/ubuntu-docs-jaunty/
<adiroiban> While translating Ubuntu Docs you may find errors in the original text.
<adiroiban> Please report those errors here:
<adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/edubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> Please remember that the Launchpad Translation Guide is your friend
<adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> Beside generating XML files, you can use translation for creating HTML files. You can use the HTML file for providing a translated version of http://help.ubuntu.com
<adiroiban> There is a dedicated Wiki page talking about how to work with the Ubuntu Docs translations:
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<adiroiban> There you can find all steps for generating Ubuntu docs on your computer and how you can customize Ubuntu Docs for your needs.
<adiroiban> Beside the Ubuntu Documentation, you can consider translating Ubuntu Desktop Course intro your language.
<adiroiban> Unfortunately the translation of Ubuntu Desktop Course is not yet available using Launchpad Translations.
<adiroiban> You can find out more about the Ubuntu Desktop Course by visiting the dedicated wiki page:
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
<adiroiban> I am working at making Ubuntu Training text available using Rosetta and you can contact me or talk to the other translators via the Ubuntu Translators Mailinglist.
<adiroiban> Ubuntu Desktop Course is part of Ubuntu Training
<adiroiban> and it's also based on XML files
<adiroiban> so translating them is similar with Ubuntu Docs
<adiroiban> also you can contact dinda for questions regarding Ubuntu Training
<adiroiban> When translating Ubuntu Docs, sometimes you will have to translated documentation for user interfaces that are not translated yet
<adiroiban> my advise is to translate firs the user interface
<adiroiban> and where you are done, come back and continue with translating the documentation
<adiroiban> so, alway translate the user interface first
<adiroiban> and while translating the documentation, always check the way user interface is translated
<adiroiban> in this way you can improve the consistency
<adiroiban> and will avoid the situation when documentation is translated using some words
<adiroiban> and the user interface using other words
<adiroiban> novice user, the one who need the translation and documentation, are always confused
<adiroiban> even of a small invariance
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> that were my tips for translationg Ubuntu Docs
<adiroiban> we can continue with the questions and answers part
<adiroiban> mdke ?
<adiroiban> it this ok?
<adiroiban> is this ok?
<mdke> absolutely, I was thinking that I would like to chip in with some comments, but you have been absolutely exhaustive! Thanks adiroiban
<mdke> let's take some questions now
<mdke> yeager> QUESTION: when will it be possible to list and submit translated screenshots for ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> ANSWER: the ubuntu-docs project doesn't currently use screenshots. Translation of screenshots is generally done manually in documentation, as far as I know, but fortunately we haven't had to deal with that issue!
<mdke> < dinda> QUESTION:  Do you have any tips for making the Desktop course easier to translate?
<mdke> I'm not really familiar with the format of the course, but adiroiban may know more
<adiroiban> We should try to find ways of including Desktop course in Rosetta
<mdke> I'd recommend the use of the xml2po program over other similar toolchains though, in my experience it works the best
<adiroiban> dinda: we should see some improvement in Rosetta that will help us improve the way we do translations
<mdke> dinda: you may find some tips on the process we use here though: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<adiroiban> after the next relase of Launchpad I will contact you for enabling the translations of Ubuntu Training materials
<adiroiban> ï»¿QUESTION: adiroiban do you have the Desktop course in PO format?
<adiroiban> yes. but it's not updated.
<adiroiban> in the next days I will update them and announce them via the ubuntu-translators mailing list
<adiroiban> and planet.ubuntu.com :)
<adiroiban> ï»¿tpfennig: QUESTION: How well is cooperation working with upstream projects like GNOME? Any plans to work together more tightly?
<adiroiban> ubuntu-docs are only covering ubuntu specific things
<adiroiban> and gnome-user-docs is part of ubuntu-docs
<mdke> we reuse entirely upstream translations for gnome-user-docs, but it's up to Ubuntu translators to send translations upstream if they work on them in Launchpad
<adiroiban> i don't know if there are plans to work more tightly, from my point of view both team are doing a great job
<adiroiban> and ubuntu-docs are integrated nicely with gnome-docs
<adiroiban> my advice is to do gnome translations upstream: http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gnome-user-docs/
<adiroiban> ok. any other questions ?
<adiroiban> ok. thank you very much for your attention
<adiroiban> you can always get in touch with us via the #ubuntu-doc  IRC channel
<adiroiban> and ubuntu-doc mailing list
<jcastro> everyone take a break for a bit, and we'll be back in 11 for the next session!
<mdke> ok, I think perhaps we can get started with the next session
<mdke> My name is Matthew East and I work with the Ubuntu Documentation Team
<mdke> I'm going to be running this session with Connor Imes, Rocket2DMn, who works on the same team
<mdke> The session is about the UBUNTU HELP WIKI
<mdke> As those who have followed previous sessions know, we have five sessions today dealing with Ubuntu documentation. Two have already finished: an intro to the project, and translating documentation.
<mdke> This session concentrates on one of the two main projects of the Ubuntu documentation team, the Ubuntu help wiki.
<mdke> The last two sessions deal with the other main project, Ubuntu system documentation, which is the documentation that comes together with your Ubuntu desktop.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2000 UTC: Working on the help wiki  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mdke> The last two sessions, which emmajane will be running, deal with the other main project of the team, Ubuntu system documentation, which is the documentation that comes together with your Ubuntu desktop.
<mdke> Both the system documentation and the help wiki are found in two sections of the same website: help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> The system documentation is found at https://help.ubuntu.com/
<mdke> The help wiki can be found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<Rocket2DMn> The help wiki is also known as the Community Docs
<mdke> By the way, feel free to shout my nick in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if I am going too fast
<mdke> I'm going to use some dashes to separate different sections of the talk, so that it should be easier to read for those reviewing the log of the session
<mdke> ---
<mdke> I'll start by explaining what a "wiki" is.
<mdke> A wiki is a website which anyone can edit.
<mdke> It's a collaborative website that seeks to collect the knowledge of a large group of people.
<mdke> The most famous example of course is wikipedia.
<mdke> The Ubuntu community has several wikis. Among those are the team wiki (wiki.ubuntu.com) and the help wiki (help.ubuntu.com/community).
<mdke> The difference is that the team wiki is used for coordination of the different teams in the Ubuntu community, while the help wiki is for users looking for documentation.
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Because anyone can edit the help wiki, quite a lot of attention is needed by volunteers to keep the wiki tidy, and to test the accuracy of material that is submitted.
<mdke> It means that the wiki is a much more free-flowing resource than the system documentation, which go through a more rigorous process of quality control.
<mdke> The wiki also has no limitations about how many subjects it can deal with, so we have much more information there than in the system documentation.
<mdke> That can mean that it is less reliable, but it also means that it is an excellent resource for searching for the answers to more difficult problems.
<mdke> It also means that it is a great place to start contributing - you don't need any special privileges to jump in and help out
<mdke> Information produced on the wiki can also be road tested there so that it is later introduced into the system documentation.
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Ok, now I'm going to cover how to contribute to the help wiki.
<mdke> We have a basic reference page which covers all the issues needed to contribute, which is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide - everyone contributing should have a look at that page.
<mdke> Let me be very clear about one thing straight away - if you would like to contribute, and can't find the information you are curious about on that page - feel free to ask the Documentation team.
<mdke> I'll give out the contact details towards the end of the session
<mdke> Right, the first step is registering. It's necessary to have a Launchpad account in order to edit the wiki. This is to protect against automatic spam on the wiki.
<mdke> Having a Launchpad account is pretty much a prerequisite for contributing in any way to the Ubuntu community, so you should definitely get one if you haven't already!
<mdke> You can register for Launchpad here: https://launchpad.net (see the top right hand corner)
<mdke> Once registered, you can log into the help wiki by visiting the wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/) and clicking the "Login to Edit" text in the top right hand corner. This takes you to Launchpad, and you then enter your details and click "Continue".
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Once logged in, you can edit the page that you are viewing. The edit toolbar appears at the bottom of the screen when you click "Show editing options" in the bottom right.
<mdke> To edit a page, click "Edit" in the toolbar. That shows you the "markup", or "raw text" that forms part of the wiki.
<mdke> The markup is there to permit you to use formatting on the page. It's very similar to the wikipedia markup, but with some differences (we use different software to wikipedia)
<mdke> Don't be scared by it, it's very simple and easy to learn. A simple edit to a page doesn't require any knowledge of markup, because you can just scroll to the relevant paragraph, and amend it, but I'll deal quickly with some basics now.
<mdke> To create a title, we use this format:
<mdke> = This is a heading =
<mdke> You can also create sub-headings, by increasing the number of = signs, like this:
<mdke> == This is a sub-heading ==
<mdke> Paragraphs are very simple - you just leave a white line in between different paragraphs, like this:
<mdke> This is the first paragraph
<mdke> This is the second paragraph
<mdke> (imagine we have a white line between the above two lines, I can't do it on irc)
<Rocket2DMn> like this:
<Rocket2DMn> paragraph 1
<Rocket2DMn>  
<Rocket2DMn> paragraph 2
<mdke> nice! Thanks Rocket2DMn
<mdke> To use text in italics, you put two inverted commas around the text in italics, like this:
<mdke> This is a ''very good'' sentence.
<Rocket2DMn> (apostrophes)
<mdke> In that example, the words "very good" will appear in italics
<mdke> sorry, apostrophes, yep
<mdke> To use text in bold, you put three inverted commas around the text in bold, like this:
<mdke> sorry again, apostrophes
<mdke> This is a '''very good''' sentence.
<mdke> You get the idea, I hope :)
<mdke> Bulleted lists can be created by using the star sign:
<mdke>  * Point 1 on the list
<mdke>  * Point 2 on the list
<mdke> Numbered lists can be created by using the number 1:
<mdke>  1. Number 1 on the list
<mdke>  1. Number 2 on the list
<Rocket2DMn> Note the space at the beginning of the line.  This is required.
<mdke> That looks a bit confusing, but it enables the wiki to ensure that the numbering is automatically updated if you add a line in the middle
<mdke> You can do the same with letters:
<mdke>  a. Letter a on the list
<mdke>  a. Letter b on the list
<mdke> and so on.
<mdke> Links can be created quite simply too. You use this format:
<mdke> [[http://www.ubuntu.com|Ubuntu website]]
<mdke> In that example, the link text is "Ubuntu website" and the link target is www.ubuntu.com
<mdke> That's really all you need to know to contribute whole pages to the wiki!
<Rocket2DMn> The separator in the middle splits the link and the link text.
<Rocket2DMn> The character is a pipe, above the Enter key on most keyboards
<mdke> unless you are from the UK, in which case it's down in the bottom left above \
<mdke> :)
<mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting for more detailed instructions about formatting on the wiki
<mdke> I'd like to emphasise that you can contribute with very little experience of the markup at all, you should pick it up straight away and you can use the above page as a reference
<mdke> We also have some writing style guidelines here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/WritingGuide
<mdke> These give you some tips about the style which we'd like to be used on the wiki
<mdke> Ok, I'll deal briefly with creating a whole new page
<mdke> The easiest way to create a new page is simply to enter it's address in the address bar of your browser
<mdke> so if you'd like to create the page called "LetsPractice", visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LetsPractice
<mdke> I should say first that we use a specific naming convention on the wiki, which is to use CamelCase spellings for the title - this is like Title Case, but without the space between the words
<mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation for more information about choosing a name
<mdke> Back to our example - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LetsPractice
<mdke> If you visit that page, you'll see that the wiki is telling you that it doesn't exist yet
<mdke> To create a new page, we have two options
<mdke> The first is to create a blank page, which you do by clicking "Create new empty page"
<mdke> The second is to create a page based on a template.
<mdke> We use the "DocumentationTemplate" that you see on the left hand side. Clicking that will give you a new page with some suggested structure that you can use for a documentation page
<mdke> ok, that's all for creating a page
<mdke> for more information, please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Other than writing, once you have got used to the structure and guidelines of the wiki, you can also help a lot by helping to keep the wiki tidy.
<mdke> We use "Tags" to keep the wiki tidy, and identify pages which need work in a particular area.
<mdke> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag for more info
<mdke> For an example of a tag in use, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Workstation
<mdke> there you see a sign that the page deals with an unsupported version of Ubuntu
<mdke> Tagging pages and cleaning up pages which already have tags is an amazingly useful way to contribute
<mdke> I'd encourage people to have a read of the Tag page for more information
<mdke> Users do not have permission on this wiki to delete or rename pages. Doing so can sometimes cause accidental, yet major, problems. This includes, but is not limited to, breaking links within the wiki itself and on the internet, as well as people's bookmarks. However, once you are familiar with the wiki, if you'd like to help out with its upkeep by deleting or renaming stray pages, you can apply to do so with the Ubuntu documentation team.
<mdke> Again, I'll give out the contact details shortly
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Key tasks. The team has some particular key tasks to deal with. These are set out at this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
<mdke> I'm very conscious that this page is not as clear or structured as it should be, so it's fundamental that if you have any questions about where to contribute - please ask
<mdke> Over the next few days and weeks we'll be working a lot on focusing the team's efforts on specific tasks, so watch this space!
<mdke> One particular task I'd mention which is a good place to help out, is by replacing the out of date "Categories" on the wiki with our new Tag system
<mdke> That's detailed here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo/Tags
<mdke> Another great task is to visit the pages which are marked for cleanup, and to tidy them up!
<mdke> That's a never ending process...
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: perhaps you could explain your "Summer of Documentation" initiative at this stage
<Rocket2DMn> Sure
<Rocket2DMn> Last summer we had a little effort to help get the help wiki up to date, and it became known as the Summer of Documentation
<Rocket2DMn> It was initaited by the Beginners Team by members who also work with the doc team.  You can read about last year's here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki/SoD2008
<Rocket2DMn> We will be doing it again this year, but it is not limited to Beginners Team members, it is for the whole community.
<Rocket2DMn> It will be focused on Tasks that the ubuntu doc team has set forward, like making use of tags and cleaning up outdated pages
<Rocket2DMn> The idea is to get users who otherwise may not know how to contribute involved
<Rocket2DMn> Let the doc team know if you are interested
<mdke> ---
<mdke> Last, but not least - communication
<mdke> To get in touch with the Documentation Team, you can contact us via the mailing list or on irc chat
<mdke> the mailing list is ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com, you can sign up here - http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> the irc channel in #ubuntu-doc on this network - feel free to join and hang around and ask questions
<mdke> the channel is sometimes pretty quiet, depending on the time of day and the week, so don't be discouraged if you don't get a reply straight away - either hang around or send us an email
<mdke> Full details about contacting the team are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<mdke> ---
<mdke> That's the end of the presentation part of the session, feel free to ask any questions now in #ubuntu-classroom-chat or by private message to me
<mdke> We'll do our best to answer
<mdke> QUESTION: is there any separate group for "Summer of Documentation"?
<Rocket2DMn> ANSWER: No, there is no separate listing of members.  The Beginners Team Wiki Focus Group who hosts the Summer of Documentation does not keep a separate listing of involved members.  This helps keep us working as tightly with the doc team as possible
<Rocket2DMn> It's all one effort.
<mdke> QUESTION: actually just working on our wiki, and nobody seems to know how to add photos into a post?
<ebel> czajkowski: *ping*
<mdke> adding photos or screenshots to a wiki page is quite easy
<mdke> you add them as an attachment using the "Attachments" button on the edit toolbar
<mdke> Some detailed step by step instructions are here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Screenshots
<mdke> QUESTION: Is submitting fixes for documentation bugs the same as other packages?
<mdke> ANSWER: in the case of bugs affecting the help wiki, it's a different process. You can simply log into the wiki and edit the page directly to fix the bug
<mdke> in the case of bugs affecting the system documentation, we have a process which emmajane is going to describe for you in the next session :)
<mdke> ok, that seems to be the end of the questions, so we'll take a short break of 5 minutes or so before we come back for the next session
<mdke> feel free to contact the team if you have any questions about contributing
<emmajane> XX:57 by my clock. We'll get started in a couple of minutes. Bio break now for those who need it!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2100-2300 UTC: Getting and Working with System Docs  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<emmajane> Hi everyone!
<emmajane> In this next session I'm going to walk you through the very basics of using Bazaar to work with the Ubuntu System Documentation. Who's up for a little bit of version control?! :)
<emmajane> crickets. :)
<emmajane> more excitment over in the -chat channel, please
<emmajane> who's ready for version control!? WOO!
<emmajane> that's better. :)
<emmajane> This session has several parts: (1) A little bit about Bazaar, (2) Installing Bazaar, (3) Using Bazaar for regular files (4) Downloading the system documentation, (5) Submitting your changes to the docs project and (6) Resources.
<emmajane> I have the notes typed out if you are interested in reading ahead, please keep your questions to the topic at hand though, thanks. (just grabbing the pastebin URL)
<emmajane> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/160234/
<emmajane> mdke is going to start us off with some "high level" talk about the tools we're using for system documentation.
<emmajane> take it away, mdke
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> I just wanted to explain briefly what we mean by "System Documentation"
<mdke> in case anyone missed Dougie's Introduction session
<mdke> basically what we mean is the documentation that Ubuntu and other Ubuntu flavours (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu) include in their desktops
<mdke> so in the case of Ubuntu, it's at System -> Help and Support
<mdke> This documentation is "offline" so that any user of ubuntu can read it without going to the internet
<mdke> It's also included online at https://help.ubuntu.com in identical form, in the case of Ubuntu
<mdke> Given that the documentation is included in Ubuntu, we use some quality control processes to ensure that the material is carefully checked
<mdke> a group of "committers" have access to add new material directly
<mdke> and new contributors make requests for their changes to be approved
<mdke> the system we use to manage this is called Bazaar, and it's what Emma will be concentrating on in this session
<mdke> The documents themselves are written in a markup language called "Docbook", which is a bit like HTML
<mdke> that's what Emma will talk about in the following session
<emmajane> ok, thanks mdke
<emmajane> Bazaar is "just" the storage tool for the system documentation. This talk applies to documentation and also anyone that wants to work with Ubuntu "code."
<emmajane> Topic 1/6: A little bit about Bazaar
<emmajane> Bazaar is a distributed version control system that Just Works. Bazaar adapts to the workflows you want to use, and it takes only a few minutes to try it out.
<emmajane> Bazaar is used by all kinds of project teams to maintain all the changes that are made to the underlying code by each developer. In fact the code for the data base MySQL is stored in Bazaar! And Ubuntu is working towards putting 15,000 packages into Bazaar! These are HUGE projects!
<emmajane> It can be used by real people too though. I like to think of myself as more of a "real person" than a "hardcore ninja developer." I use Bazaar because it's really good, but also because the support community is AMAZING. People have answered questions at all hours of the day in the IRC channel #bzr.
<emmajane> Whether you're a hardcore ninja developer, or a real person, you can take advantage of version control for your work.
<emmajane> (Apparently ninjas are real people too though.) ;)
<emmajane> It can be useful to put all kinds of files under version control. For example: your configuration files, your resume, or any other kind of file that you might want to see a "historical" snapshot of.
<emmajane> For example: I'm a freelance Web developer. I'm doing work on a client site and all of a sudden I get brand new files from the graphic designer that change everything. I could start a new folder, but that leaves a lot of junk lying around on my computer.
<emmajane> Instead I use all the new files in my project (overwriting the old ones), but with Bazaar there is a secret "history" folder that allows me to go back and look at the old versions of the file whenever I want.
<emmajane> I like to think of Bazaar as the biggest, baddest UNDO button my computer has ever known.
<emmajane> I'm going to pause here and collect questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<emmajane> <jtholmes> Question: i take it bazaar can also run on a personal computer with little setup effort?
<emmajane> Absolutely! In fact we're going to set it up in the very next part of this talk.
<emmajane> <dinda> QUESTION: Can Bzr be used for text-based files?  or just html/xml?
<emmajane> Bazaar can be used to create versions of any files. It is most effective with plain text files (like HTML, XML and configuration files), but it can also be used to store images too!
<emmajane> <TaNgO> Question: I'm using SVN at the moment... It's first time I heard about Bazaar. Why should I switch to it?
<emmajane> TaNgO, Great question! If you like SVN, you should keep using it. If, however, you want to be able to work directly with the system documentation, having a rudimentary understanding of the basic bzr commands will make it a lot easier.
<emmajane> TaNgO, there's also cool plugins that make Bazaar work with SVN.
<emmajane> <zaidka> QUESTION: Why using Bazaar instead of a wiki?
<emmajane> Bazaar has a more sophisticated versioning system than you can get in a Wiki. On top of that it's only recently that Wikis have been able to convert text into different formats. In some ways working with Bazaar and DocBook is a legacy system, but it also allows a greater degree of control on how the documents look in their final stage (e.g. PDF or HTML).
<mdke> the tools to convert wiki material into docbook are a little bit incomplete at the moment
<mdke> and as emmajane says, Bazaar allows more finely grained version control tools
<mdke> but in the future, we will definitely keep looking at using a wiki for system documentation - I hope one day it will be possible
<emmajane> Topic 2/6: Installing Bazaar
<emmajane> I'm going to assume that everyone is already using Ubuntu?
<emmajane> Is anyone on something OTHER than Ubuntu right now though? I know you might be secretly connected at work right now where you're forced to use something else...
<emmajane> We will be working from the command line for most of this session. I am very comfortable at the command line so if I go too quickly, please jump up and down and tell me! I have used the convention of $ to mean start typing a command. If you look at your command line you will see that it ends with a $. Mine looks like this:
<emmajane> emmajane@hum:~$
<emmajane> If you are using GNOME you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
<emmajane> Applications (top left of your screen) -> Accessories -> Terminal.
<emmajane> (GNOME is the default for Ubuntu)
<emmajane> If you are using KDE you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
<emmajane> System -> Terminal Program (Konsole)
<emmajane> If you are using a different desktop environment you are probably already a super 1337 haX0r that knows how to find a terminal window, but please let me know if you need more help!
<emmajane> Let me know if you can't find a terminal window....
<emmajane> Now that you are at the terminal window you will see something similar to my command line that I displayed above. We are now going to install Bazaar. I chose to do this from the command because that's where we'll be running the commands. You could also use the Synaptic Package Manager to do this installation.
<emmajane> To install Bazaar we are going to use a package manager called apt-get. It install a package it uses the structure: apt-get install PACKAGENAME. You must be the super user of your system to run this program we will use the "sudo" command instead because it's faster and because this comic is funnier if you know about sudo:  http://xkcd.com/149/
<emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr
<emmajane> You will be prompted for your password. This is your password.
<emmajane> (Assuming you are the only "user" on your workstation)
<emmajane> <dinda> how do i know if i have the latest version of bzr installed?
<emmajane> If you run that command Ubuntu will check to see if your version is already the latest for your version of Ubuntu.
<emmajane> Assuming you have automatic updates turned on (yes by default) you are probably already running the latest version for your flavour of Ubuntu.
<emmajane> Assuming that worked you should now have Bazaar installed on your system. You can test this with the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr
<emmajane> You should get a list of Bazaar commands. Note: Bazaar is the name of the application and bzr is the actual command that you run.
<emmajane> The first command we're going to run "in" Bazaar is to tell it who you are. This will put your name next to any work that you do with the system documentation.
<emmajane> $ bzr whoami "Your name <youremail@ubuntu.com>"
<emmajane> You should replace "Your name" with your actual name. The email address is optional.
<emmajane> See how bzr is a command line utility?
<emmajane> You type in "bzr" and the command you want to give it. In this case it's bzr whoami
<emmajane> If you want to have a pointy-clicky browser to make these changes you can also install "Olive." This program has the package name: bzr-gtk. You can install it with the following command:
<emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr-gtk
<emmajane> I'll be honest though, the command line version of the tool is a lot more robust.
<emmajane> There are also tools for Windows and OSX too.
<emmajane> A few months ago I prepared a screen cast for the Desktop Training Course, although the package that you download for the system documentation is different, many of the concepts are the same. You can watch the video here:
<emmajane> http://showmedo.com/videotutorials/video?name=3670000&fromSeriesID=367
<emmajane> You can watch that screen cast later...
<emmajane> How's everyone doing so far? Ready to start taking snapshots of your files?
<emmajane> <zaidka> QUESTION: is bazaar a distributed version control system? or centralized like subversion?
<emmajane> Bazaar is a distributed version control system. It's like Git or Mercurial.
<emmajane> It can behave like a centralized system as well (like CVS or Subversion).
<emmajane> http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows <-- those are a few of the ways you can set up Bazaar.
<emmajane> the documentation team uses Bazaar with a "centralized" model meaning that everyone checks their files into Launchpad.
<emmajane> Topic 3/6: Using Bazaar for regular files
<emmajane> For the next part I want you to choose a directory that has files you *know* you should be keeping in better order. This might be an application that you've been hacking away on, or your resume folder, or whatever!
<emmajane> We could also invent some files if you wanted to, but I think it's nice to work with files you know.
<emmajane> Change directory to the folder that has the files you want to put under revision control. I am going to work in the folder that contains the files for the Web site bzrvsgit.com. I use the following command to move to that directory:
<emmajane> $ cd websites/bzrvsgit.com
<emmajane> Remember that you can use the tab button to finish typing each of the words. Type the first letter of the file name and then press the tab key. It will type the rest of the word for you. Of course if there are more than one files that start with the same letter you will need to type a few more letters before hitting tab again.
<emmajane> Once you have changed to your working directory you can create a new "repository" of your files. A repository is a place where data are stored and maintained. This folder will no longer be a simple set of files. It will be an uber awesome time machine that lets you travel back in time to see old versions of your files.
<emmajane> To start the time machine, I mean initialize the repository, use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr init
<emmajane> It's sort of like a magic trick because you won't see anything happen. This command creates a hidden time machine in your current directory.
<emmajane> You can confirm it is there with the following command:
<emmajane> $ ls -al
<emmajane> Do you see the .bzr folder? That's your time machine!
<emmajane> Has everyone got their time machine?
<emmajane> I mean .bzr folder?
<emmajane> <dinda> so this is all happening locally and not interacting with anything on the web right?
<emmajane> Correct!
<emmajane> Right now you're like a little pod inside a space ship waiting to get launched.
<emmajane> <jtholmes> QUESTION: did canonical folks write bazaar
<emmajane> Sort of. They sponsor the project currently and have re-written nearly the entire code base, but they didn't start the project initially.
<emmajane> I did a quick google for the history of the project, but I'm not seeing it. If anyone wants to paste it into -chat I'll put the URL here later on.
<emmajane> I'm going to move onto the next step...
<emmajane> For the next step you need to add all your files into the time machine. This command tells Bazaar there are new files being added to the repository. It doesn't save any changes, it just tells Bazaar which files it ought to be monitoring. To add files to the repository, use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr add
<emmajane> History of the Bazaar project at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazaar_(software)#History (thanks mdke!)
<emmajane> Bazaar will tell you that it has added the files to the time machine. Next you will need to lock and load the time machine. This allows you to jump back to this point in history. In Bazaar-speak this is referred to as "committing your changes."
<emmajane> You must add a little message each time you commit your files. This lets you know what happened at this point in history (and makes it easier to jump back in time to exactly the right point). Be descriptive in your commit message. Use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr commit -m "Adding files to the time machine for the very first time."
<emmajane> <jtholmes> QUESTION: if you add a new file to the directory does bazaar know the others have already been added
<emmajane> Not automatically. You have to tell it about any new files that you create or copy into that folder by using the same command (bzr add).
<emmajane> Just a little side note: please do not send me Private Messages with your questions. Please join the channel: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<emmajane> Thanks!!
<emmajane> <Wess> Question: Do we have to add the files one by one or can we use wild card *
<emmajane> All of the files in the directory will automatically be added. You don't need to worry about using a wild card.
<emmajane> Once you've got the files "added" try doing your first commit.
<emmajane> Then try editing one of the files and "committing" again.
<emmajane> <amigo_rich> QUESTION: Can I change the editor from nano to something else?
<emmajane> If you use the -m parameter you can completely bypass the editor.
<mdke> You can change the editor that you system uses automatically with the command: $ update-alternatives --config editor
<emmajane> Now that you've seen how easy it is to issue commands to Bazaar, we're going to download the Ubuntu system documentation. On my "fast" connection this took about 5 minutes.
<emmajane> Topic 4/6: Downloading the system documentation
<emmajane> This time we're going to issue a command to Bazaar to tell it to go and get the system documentation from the hosting platform, Launchpad.
<emmajane> here's the command:
<emmajane> $ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc
<emmajane> let's take a look at it:
<emmajane> bzr <--- you know that part. You've already used it a couple of times.
<emmajane> branch <--- this is telling Launchpad that you'd like to grab a new copy of the system documentation.
<emmajane> lp:ubuntu-doc <--- this part actually says which bits to download.
<emmajane> branch means "new copy"
<emmajane> WAIT THOUGH
<emmajane> this is going to download to wherever you currently are!
<emmajane> you may want to change directories first!
<emmajane> If it has already started downloading, simply use: control-c to "cancel" the download.
<emmajane> so if you want to put the files into your home directory, use the following:
<emmajane> $ cd
<emmajane> $ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc
<emmajane> You will see the following error message:
<emmajane> You have not informed bzr of your Launchpad ID, and you must do this to write to Launchpad or access private data.  See "bzr help launchpad-login".
<emmajane> Because you do not have "write" access, you can safely ignore this message for now. If you want to register yourself with launchpad you will need to follow the instructions at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository#Generating%20SSH%20keys
<emmajane> In the pastebin for this talk I have more advanced instructions for more complicated setups. I won't have time to cover them, but you can ask me about them later!
<emmajane> <zaidka> FOLLOWUP QUESTION: Then how does bazaar know which server to grab the data from?
<emmajane> zaidka, LP means "from launchpad" which is the centralized server we use.
<emmajane> You should now be in the process of downloading the Ubuntu system documentation source files!
<emmajane> While you download those files, let's take a look at what you'll find once they're downloaded.
<emmajane> The documents that can be edited appear in the top level of the branch. Documents use the structure documentname/C/documentname.xml. The C directory represents the default language of the system (in our case, English). Translations of each document are found in the documentname/po directory.
<emmajane> There are some directories there which do not correspond to documents. These are briefly explained as follows:
<emmajane>     * build/ - this is where HTML versions of the documents are put when generated as explained on the Building Documentation page.
<emmajane>     * debian/ - this contains the files used to generate an Ubuntu package from the branch. For more information on packaging, see the PackagingGuide page.
<emmajane>     * libs/ - this contains the files used to generate HTML and PDF from the documents.
<emmajane>     * scripts/ - this contains specific scripts which are used by the team for various tasks, especially translation.
<emmajane> I'm going to motor through the last little bit as you're downloading the files.
<emmajane> Topic 5/6: Submitting your changes
<emmajane> There are several ways to submit your requested changes for system documentation. I will cover two here: bzr bundle (submitted via the Launchpad Web interface); and bzr push.
<emmajane> Bazaar bundles are text files that allow the reviewer to "merge" your changes into the main branch for the documentation. They are similar to a "diff" file, but contain additional information. They are simple to create. Once you have made all of your changes (and committed them), use the following steps:
<emmajane> $ cd ~/ubuntu-doc (or wherever the root directory is for your changed branch)
<emmajane> $ bzr bundle > ~/Desktop/my-documentation-changes.patch
<emmajane> Now you have a patch file that can be submitted back to the team. At this point the most effective way of having that change seen is to submit a new bug report in Launchpad and attach the file.
<emmajane> The bugs page for the team is available at:
<emmajane> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<emmajane> A few months ago I prepared a screen cast which explains the second method to "push" your changes back to Launchpad. The file names are relevant to the Desktop course, but the concepts are the same. You can watch the video here:
<emmajane> http://showmedo.com/videotutorials/video?name=3680000&fromSeriesID=368
<emmajane> We can go into more detail as part of the DocBook session (if you're sticking around).
<emmajane> Finally I want to end with some Bazaar resources.
<emmajane> Topic 6/6: Resources
<emmajane> There are lots of resources to learn more about Bazaar if you want to use it for more than just Ubuntu system documentation.
<emmajane> The built-in documentation is really good. You can check the "man" pages with:
<emmajane> $ man bzr
<emmajane> OR get a list of all the commands in bzr with:
<emmajane> $ bzr --help commands
<emmajane> OR list the table of contents for the help files with:
<emmajane> $ bzr help topics
<emmajane> OR you can join the IRC channel or the bazaar mailing list!
<emmajane> IRC: #bzr
<emmajane> mailing list: bazaar@lists.canonical.com
<emmajane> There were some AMAZING questions today, thanks everyone.
<mdke> great job at answering them all!
<emmajane> I'm going to take a short break, but then roll into the DocBook talk which explains what to do with those files you're currently downloading.
<emmajane> Hopefully everyone can stick around for the second part!
<emmajane> Quick bio break for everyone and then back at XX:07
<emmajane> ok. I'll start up in one more minute with the DocBook content!
<emmajane> aight!
<emmajane> let's get started with the awesomeness of DocBook!
<emmajane> woo!
<emmajane> let's hear some noise in #ubuntu-classroom-chat!
<emmajane> YAY DocBOOK!
 * emmajane notes the chat channel is waning.
<emmajane> alrighty!
<emmajane> The notes for this talk are at: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/160267/
<emmajane> please feel free to read ahead, but try to keep questions "on topic." Thanks!
<emmajane> Oh wait. jcastro can you do a topic change?
<emmajane> I don't know how to do fancy IRC things. :/
 * emmajane proceeds.
<emmajane> Next up we're going to look at the format of the source files for the Ubuntu system documentation files. I've been working with DocBook and talking about it for over five years. My first exposure to DocBook was through The Linux Documentation Project (www.tldp.org) where I was an author and later a coordinator.
<emmajane> This talk has several parts:
<emmajane> 1. Choosing a markup language
<emmajane> 2. Looking at DocBook files
<emmajane> 3. DocBook editors
<emmajane> 4. Common DocBook tags
<emmajane> 5. Transformations
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2100-2300 UTC: Working with System Docs - Docbook  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<emmajane> This talk is significantly less reading and a lot more poking around with files. Let's get started...
<emmajane> Topic 1: Choosing a Markup Language.
<emmajane> There are three parts to a published document (whether in-print or on-line):
<emmajane> 1. The Content
<emmajane> 2. The Markup (Semantics)
<emmajane> 3. The Transformation (Style)
<emmajane> Let's take a look at each one briefly:
<emmajane> Content is the most important thing you'll ever do (when it comes to technical documentation)!!
<emmajane> The markup language, such as DocBook, is used to describe the content. Adding meaningful tags to your document helps keep consistent formatting.
<emmajane> The transformation is what converts the document into a human-readable format. The final file might be rendered by a browser, or output from a printer.
<emmajane> There are a lot of converters available which allow you to switch from one markup language to another. This means you can write your documentation in just about any format you'd like. Even if it's just plain text, that's fine!
<emmajane> Of course if you want to submit system documentation to the Ubuntu project it will need to use the markup language DocBook.
<emmajane> For more information read: The Secret Life of Markup by Steven Champeon http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/02/42/index4a.html
<emmajane> As you can see Markup is just *part* of what it takes to write good documentation.
<emmajane> But in this session we're going to focus on only that one slice: the markup.
<emmajane> Topic 2: Looking at DocBook files
<emmajane> Let's take a look at a DocBook file. In a Web browser, please pull up the following page. It's a sample document from the ubuntu documentation project. Please have your browser window open next to the IRC window as I'm going to be referencing this file.
<emmajane> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-karmic/annotate/head%3A/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<emmajane> If you've finished downloading the system files, you can also peek inside: ubuntu-doc/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<emmajane> Now that you've got that file open, let's take a look.... actually first off: is anyone here colour blind? It makes life a little more tricky if you are...
<emmajane> There are a few different kinds of things that I'd like you to see. First of all: DocBook is a tag-based markup language. Anything inside of a green <tag> is a little piece of DocBook.
<emmajane> Please scroll down to line 48. Take a look at that line.. it's real text! DocBook merely provides the structure to a bunch of plain text words.
<emmajane> Now scroll back up to line 29. Do you see the word that is bold and in reddish-brown? &distro-rev; This is an entity--it refers to another file somewhere else and allows the documentation team to place identical content into various parts of the documentation.
<emmajane> Want to see what the value is for that entity? Take a look at the "rendered" version of that XML file. On your desktop, navigate to System -> About Ubuntu. it's the same content, but rendered for human consumption! (I think transformations are cool, but I might be sort of weird.)
<emmajane> Step away from the scary DocBook file and take a look at the rendered text in the System menu....
<emmajane> <dinda> Why do some lines wrap and others don't?
<emmajane> good question! This is "simply" to do with the settings that each of the authors used.
<emmajane> White space is ignored.
<emmajane> Has everyone taken a look at System, About Ubuntu?
<emmajane> Go take a peek!
<emmajane> You can see how the words that were &something; have been converted into real text that is relevant to your system.
<emmajane> for example: mine says 9.04. But if you're running LTS it'll say 8.04
<emmajane> cool, eh?
<emmajane> ok....Let's take a look at what else is in this file....ah right, the stuff at the top in light blue. These are the instructions that talk about what version of DocBook the document is using (4.1.2), where the files are that contain the entities (.ent files).
<emmajane> (back in the Web browser)
<emmajane> <dinda> QUESTION: Why can't we just use a wysiwyg editor for docbook?
<emmajane> We'll take a look at possible editors in the next section. Good news: you can use a WYSIWYG editor...sometimes.
<emmajane> We can also see that this is an "article." You can also make "books" and "slides" using DocBook.
<emmajane> Without going into the tags themselves, are there any other questions about what a DocBook file is?
<emmajane> We've taken a look at the "code" and the output.... but what other questions do you have?
<emmajane> <jtholmes> looks a lot like XML always has ending tags
<emmajane> Absolutely!
<emmajane> that's exactly what DocBook is. :)
<emmajane> see up at the top of the web page there's a long URI that ends in .DTD? That's exactly the same as other XML files except this time it's DocBook XML
<emmajane> Topic 3: DocBook editors
<emmajane> Fortunately you can use just about any kind of text editor for DocBook. You may want to use a fancy XML editor, or a graphical editor (like OpenOffice.org), or just a regular text editor (like gedit).
<emmajane> (sad news)
<emmajane> Note: right now I'm getting Java errors in Jaunty when I try to open an XML file in OOo. I know that you can edit DocBook in OpenOffice.org v3, but I'm not sure which package is not provided in Jaunty by default. I'll post something in the transcript of this session when I know more....
<emmajane> What text editors are you using right now? Let's take a look at whether or not you are already equipped to edit a DocBook file.
<emmajane> How many people use vim?
<emmajane> How many people use gedit or the KDE editor?
<emmajane> How many people use Emacs?
<emmajane> How many people use OpenOffice.org?
<emmajane> Or something else entirely!
 * emmajane collates responses from -chat: jEdit, Vim
<emmajane> The hardest part about editing the system documentation is finding the right file to edit. Take a look in your Web browser again.
<xray7224> i use vim :P
<emmajane> See the link at the top to "download file"? Go ahead and click it now... Save the file to your desktop. Next open up your favourite text editor. If you don't have a favourite, use gEdit which is available under Applications, Accessories, Text Editor.
 * emmajane adds bluefish to the list of editors.
<emmajane> (this is in your Web browser again)
<emmajane> Once again, that Web page is at: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-karmic/annotate/head%3A/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<emmajane> Once you've downloaded the file, make sure you open it up in a text editor.
<emmajane> It's all scary and voodoo in there, but it's also "just" a plain text file that you can open with any text editor. (Yes, even Notepad on windows.)
<emmajane> You can see that even though DocBook looks like "code" it's a simple text file that can be edited "by hand."
<emmajane> Now that we have file open, let's look even closer...
<emmajane> Topic 4: Common DocBook tags
<emmajane> The tags in DocBook are a way of adding meaning to plain text content. There is a really great online reference book at http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html which explains what all of that tags are. There are HUNDREDS and that can be a little bit overwhelming.
<emmajane> Remember though: when you looked at the System Documentation (About ubuntu) all of those tags were hidden and instead you were seeing nicely formatted text.
<emmajane> One way to get a feel for DocBook is to look through an existing file to see which tags have been used.
<emmajane> If you are using a GUI editor, like OpenOffice.org you would never need to see these tags.
<emmajane> Unfortunately, because there are so many tags (over 300) it's hard for graphical editors to implement the *entire* set.
<emmajane> This is why it's taken so long for OOo and other graphical editors to get on board.
<emmajane> Here are some common tags in a comparison table that shows HTML and DocBook:
<emmajane> http://web.archive.org/web/20041024082240/xtrinsic.com/lsm/docbook/foil14.html
<emmajane> Yes, that's sort of a horrible URL to use... it's from a talk I gave in 2004 about DocBook as found in archive.org. This also shows you that unlike a lot of stuff, DocBook rarely changes. ;)
<emmajane> Once you get the hang of it, you're golden!
<emmajane> And here are some tags that are very common in the Ubuntu system documentation:
<emmajane> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags
<emmajane> And also a great summary of the whole process (including common DocBook tags) at: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
<emmajane> HTML has about 1/3 the number of tags, so it feels "easier" to people who are new to markup language.
<emmajane> realistically though, *nobody* uses them all. ;)
<emmajane> <dinda> QUESTION: are their any known 'problem' tags?  ones to avoid using
<emmajane> Problem tags will depend on your transformation toolkit.
<emmajane> Sometimes things like graphics get a little bit dicey.
<emmajane> Generally though, if you can figure out the tags, someone else will have figured out how to do the transformations. :)
<emmajane> Does anyone have questions about the tags they're seeing in their text editor?
<emmajane> It's a fairly straight forward set of tags. Nothing TOO fancy.
<emmajane> If you've downloaded the source files from the previous session as well, you can go poke around in those files to see if there are other tags that are "intriguing."
<emmajane> <jtholmes> QUESTION: does intentation leading white space matter
<emmajane> Just like all XML: white space is ignored.
<emmajane> <dinda> QUESTION: Lines 42, 43  and others have what look like old line numbers - are those part of the revision history?
<emmajane> Click them and see what happens. :)
<emmajane> Indeed it is part of the revision history. Loggerhead (the graphical viewer) automatically links them to the "older" version of the file.
<emmajane> Where there are numbers, like line 16, it has to do with merged branches.
<emmajane> <mfitzhugh> What do status attributes refer to?
<emmajane> Those are internal flags for the documentation team to say whether or not the material as been reviewed.
<emmajane> DougieRichardson, are you still up?
<emmajane> DougieRichardson, can you speak to those?
<DougieRichardson> emmajane: sorry wasn't paying attention - what was the question
<DougieRichardson> Ah status?
<emmajane> look up three lines. ;)
<emmajane> e.g.  <sect1 id="about-ubuntu-name" status="review">
<DougieRichardson> We use them within the team to control where we're at with them
<emmajane> What are the other options?
<DougieRichardson> review - needs review
<emmajane> i.e. what other "status" can a section have?
<DougieRichardson> it can be anything
<DougieRichardson> but writing
<DougieRichardson> review
<DougieRichardson> and complete are the most common
<emmajane> excellent, thanks. :)
<DougieRichardson> we don't use them as much as we could do though
<DougieRichardson> so I wouldn't worry too much
<emmajane> ok, last topic! :)
<emmajane> Topic 5: Transformations
<emmajane> And finally there are transformations. This is the part of the process that allows you to convert DocBook into one of the many formats that we use as part of the documentation team. For example: the Web based version of the system documentation.
<emmajane> Fortunately you don't really need to worry about transformations when you are contributing to the system documentation as this is handled by a set of tools on the server side.
<emmajane> But what if you want to read the documentation that you're working on? It's sort of hard to "see" what you're writing about if you're working in DocBook.
<emmajane> You'll need to "transform" your DocBook into something that you can read!
<emmajane> One of the best little tools for this is a command line utility called xmlto. You can install it using Synaptic or at the command line. If you are working at the command line use the following:
<emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install xmlto
<emmajane> Once installed you can convert your xml files to PDFs using the following command:
<emmajane> $ xmlto pdf yourdocbookfile.xml
<emmajane> If you're just reading the files yourself, this is probably more than enough. There are more complicated setups, of course. But I like to keep things simple where I can!
<emmajane> For example: this tool won't be enough if you also need to embed fonts and do any kind of crazy customizations to your files, but it will be "good enough" to read the files you're writing in DocBook.
<emmajane> And that, in a 40 minute nutshell, is DocBook! We covered:
<emmajane> 1. Choosing a markup language
<emmajane> 2. Looking at DocBook files
<emmajane> 3. DocBook editors
<emmajane> 4. Common DocBook tags
<emmajane> 5. Transformations
<emmajane> We've still got another 10 minutes and then it's an open slot after this. Please feel free to hammer the -chat channel with questions!!
<emmajane> We'll start off with a recap of what an entity is...
<emmajane> An "entity" is a short form that allows you to refer to text elsewhere.
<emmajane> You can think of this as a portal.
<emmajane> Like a black hole portal. They take you to another dimension.
<emmajane> If we go back to the Web-based file you saw a number of black hole portals (entities).
<emmajane> they always start with & and end with ;
<emmajane> <dinda> like a time portal or black hole portal?
<emmajane> <dinda> ah, like a worm hole ;)
<emmajane> I have to paste that clarification because I'm a Luddite when it comes to sci fi references. :)
<emmajane> When a document is rendered into something its new form, all of the entities are expanded and the little worlds of text that were contained on the other end of the worm hole "appear" in the full document.
<emmajane> In the Web URL that we looked at the version of Ubuntu was expanded from &distro-rev; to 9.04
<emmajane> This means we don't have to search and replace 9.04 when it's time for 9.10. We just update the other end of the worm hole to have the new value.
<emmajane> at the other end of the worm hole it looks like this:
<emmajane> <!ENTITY language "en">
<emmajane> If I wanted to put "en" somewhere I would use &language;
<emmajane> this is especially relevant for HTML pages.
<emmajane> <dinda> How do I reuse entities in another set of files?
<emmajane> again we can refer to that Web file.
<emmajane> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
<emmajane> in this case the value of the entity is stored in an external file, libs/gnome-menus-C.ent
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-29
<emmajane> You can also create catalogues, which are sort of like a shopping store of entities that you want to use in multiple projects.
<emmajane> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/entity/spec-2001-08-06.html <--- scary specification document.
<emmajane> That wraps up our time, but I'm happy to stick around if people have more questions!
<emmajane> Thanks for slogging through it with me. These are conceptually very difficult topics!
<marcelo_> I have installed Ubuntu 9.04 and have notice the slowness of graphics!!!  Xorg is taking up 30% of my cpu and beagle-helper is taking up 15% to 20% of my cpu...    thats on avarage 50% of my cpu!!!   can anyone please help me before i have to back to vista witch ran just fine....   I am a nuwby to linux and have liked it so far but now I am stuck with this problem.
<Froad> marcelo_ this is not the correct channel
<Froad> although I understand your concerns please go to #ubuntu
<marcelo_> Froad ok, thanks
<huma> this open week is a neat idea
<nickleus> hi from norway
<nickleus> pretty quite "classroom" :)
<nickleus> quiet
<AtomicSpark> Yes, it's for the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Odd_Bloke> Things will kick off again at 1500 UTC.
<AtomicSpark> Which is too early for me. Tis why we have screen + irssi.
<yussri> 8-)
<mimir|on> kirkland: great work on the screen profiles articles
<thegrieve> ?
<thegrieve> wrong terminal :)
<morphus> hi do any one have some idea for solution, after clean install a ubuntu 9.04, and install "vlc" and "mozilla-plugin-vlc" , i can't live stream from some servers, i got that kind of pop up massage "unsafe option "rtsp-tcp" has been ignored for security reasons", vlc plug in works in 8.10 but not in 9.04
<thegrieve> its possible firefox is rejecting the protocol, try getting the streams address and opening it directly in vlc
<jcastro> ~13 minutes!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1500 UTC: Introduction to the Messaging Indicator  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<jcastro> ok, just a few more to let everyone settle down
<Ireyon> 0 minutes.
<jcastro> how is everyone today?
<jcastro> I hope you're all set for a full day of sessions!
<artir_>  yeah!
<JFo> wooo!
<akgraner> GREAT!
<jcastro> today we're going to start with Ken Vandine, who will talk about the messaging-indicator
<tang0> yes! :-D
<jcastro> but he's on the desktop team so you can probably ask him all sorts of questions. :)
<jcastro> kenvandine_wk: ready?
<kenvandine_wk> yup
<jcastro> as always, please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> but we'll keep this open for followups just in case
<kenvandine_wk> ok, this is an introduction to the messaging indicator in ubuntu
<kenvandine_wk> this is some of the new work that has come out of the desktop experience team, now called Ayatana
<kenvandine_wk> The messaging indicator, also known as the indicator-applet, is a central place to keep track of messages that you might need to be concerned about.
<kenvandine_wk> If you are running Jaunty, you should see the applet in your panel
<kenvandine_wk> next to the notification area, a little envelope
<kenvandine_wk> The focus is on human-to-human messaging, for example; instant messaging, e-mail, social networking, etc.
<kenvandine_wk> By tracking these in a single applet, instead of displaying separate icons in the notification area or on the panel, we save a considerable amount of realestate and cut down on the clutter.
<kenvandine_wk> We also get the benefit of a single place in the panel to find messages waiting review/attention.
<kenvandine_wk> Current applications that take advantage of the messaging indicator include:  pidgin, evolution, gajim, and gwibber
<kenvandine_wk> at least that I know of... I hope more will soon
<kenvandine_wk> ok, that is the intro... now lets get to some questions
<kenvandine_wk> Ireyon: QUESTION: does it affect the gnome desktop only? or has kubuntu a similar feature?
<kenvandine_wk> currently gnome only, there isn't an applet for kde yet
<kenvandine_wk> however I hope that changes in the karmic cycle
<kenvandine_wk> tgm4883: QUESTION:  Whats the use case between this and the popup notifier?  As a developer, why should I use one over the other?
<kenvandine_wk> they aren't really related at all
<kenvandine_wk> the popup notifier (notifications) are only displayed for a few seconds
<kenvandine_wk> we will talk a little more about that in a few
<kenvandine_wk> the messaging indicator is a list of messages you might need to act on
<kenvandine_wk> and IM from your friend jane for example
<kenvandine_wk> or that you have 23 unread emails
<kenvandine_wk> or someone replied to a comment you made on gwibber
<kenvandine_wk> they show up in the list of messages in the indicator applet
<kenvandine_wk> and you can click on them to act
<kenvandine_wk> they persist there until you act on them
<kenvandine_wk> notifications just show for a few seconds and go away, to draw your attention to them briefly
<kenvandine_wk> khensthoth: QUESTION: It's true that it saves space and prevents clutter. However, for someone who has, say a 19" screen, screen real estate is not a really problem. The problem is now one has more clicks before getting to what he wants, and hence lower efficiency. How is the applet beneficial then?
<kenvandine_wk> it is true that with the pidgin icon in the notification area, a single click would take you to a message
<kenvandine_wk> but what if you had messages from 6 people?
<kenvandine_wk> it only takes you to the latest, so extra clicks there
<kenvandine_wk> the real benefit is a single place for the user to look
<kenvandine_wk> LjL: QUESTION: but libnotify/notification-daemon supports interactive notifications, in principle (and in practice, in the reference implementation). why develop a separate API instead of employing the existing and previously used one?
<kenvandine_wk> the indicator isn't related to libnotify or notification-daemon
<kenvandine_wk> it is a new way to track messages and act on them, they aren't notifications that are passing
<kenvandine_wk> i will do a quick Q & A on the notification changes as well when we finish the indicator Q & A
<LjL> yes, that's what i'm saying - it's not related, when to my understanding it could easily be, since the libnotify API itself supports sticky, interactive notifications
<kenvandine_wk> garethj: QUESTION: I had a quick look at implementing something that used the indicator applet in Python but struggled to find any documentation and the samples were for quite specific purposes. Is there some detailed developer documentation that I missed (API rather than conceptual) somewhere or are there plans to produce some?
<kenvandine_wk> Yes, there isn't much documentation yet
<kenvandine_wk> there is an article on using the indicator in your application in the next GNOME Journal, keep an eye on gnomejournal.org
<kenvandine_wk> there are also a couple examples in the python-indicate source
<kenvandine_wk>  JPohlmann: QUESTION: Are there any plans on a message indication specification (thinking freedesktop.org here)? What are your thoughts on creating a library for the messaging plugins and communication between the indicator/applications that could be used outside the message indicator you guys wrote (e.g. in KDE or Xfce)?
<kenvandine_wk> sorry, I am am not really sure if they are working on proposing a spec for that, but it would be a good idea imho
<kenvandine_wk>  guillom: QUESTION: the indicator applet now notifies about things that were filtered (and hidden) before (e.g. the getting-online notifications from pidgin when in silent mode); this looks like a regression, since now one is overwhelmed by useless notifications ; is this behaviour a bug, a feature or a matter of configuration?.
<kenvandine_wk> yes and no
<kenvandine_wk> for example, if your friend Jorge shows up online, yes it adds an indicator for that even so you can quickly IM him if you want to harrass him :)
<kenvandine_wk> but
<kenvandine_wk> since jorge didn't IM you, it goes away after some time limit without acting on it
<kenvandine_wk> i think it is like 30 seconds, but not sure
<kenvandine_wk> Artir: QUESTION: ayatana is composed right now of notify-osd and notiticator-applet. What's next?
<kenvandine_wk> Keep an eye on what is going on at UDS next month, there should be lots of discussion there
<kenvandine_wk> ^arky^: QUESTION: libnotify does work quite well with orca screen reader. Will you continue to work closely with orca and gnome a11y team in future also
<kenvandine_wk> i think there are open bugs about that and some discussion on the mailing list, not sure what the current plans are
<kenvandine_wk>  jtholmes: QUESTION: i know zip about IM'ing but do know that some IM's can talk to others etc.  where is the list of what IM's can talk to what IM's
<kenvandine_wk> not sure what you mean there, you mean multiple protocols?
<kenvandine_wk> the indicator is more event based, it doesn't care what creates it
<jtholmes> no what can pidgin talk to etc.
<kenvandine_wk> pidgin talks to pidgin
<kenvandine_wk> as far as the indicator is concerned
<kenvandine_wk> pidgin tells the indicator when there is an event you should be concerned about
<kenvandine_wk> ok, any more questions before we talk about notify-osd?
<kenvandine_wk> ok, moving on
<kenvandine_wk> i want to touch on the notification changes as well and answer questions people might have
<kenvandine_wk> in Jaunty, notification-daemon was replaced by notifiy-osd
<kenvandine_wk> To improve the user experience for notifications in Ubuntu, the Desktop Notifications Specification should be implemented in a consistent way, with non-interactive, non-directional, non-overlapping notification bubbles that can be clicked through and look beautiful.
<kenvandine_wk> Visual confirmation of hotkey changes to volume, screen brightness, and backlight brightness should also be presented in bubbles the same way as notifications.
<kenvandine_wk> following the old specification, created a rather tortured workflow imho
<kenvandine_wk> so not only do the notifications look nicer now
<kenvandine_wk> they are more consistent
<kenvandine_wk> they always appear in the same place
<kenvandine_wk> they don't stack... you see them in the order they are recieved
<kenvandine_wk> and they never required interaction
<kenvandine_wk> if an application needs you to do something, it should raise an alert box (unfocused)
<kenvandine_wk> BugeyeD: QUESTION: in the screen-profiles session, we learned that items were available/present for most status/notification items right in the screen profile. does the messaging indicator also have a tie-in to screen?
<kenvandine_wk> no... but that sure would be cool
<kenvandine_wk> LjL: QUESTION: you said you are currently not planning a freedesktop spec. notify-osd, on the other hand, follows an existing proposed freedesktop spec. that spec provides actions, as well as notifications that don't expire after few seconds (according to http://www.galago-project.org/specs/notification/0.9/x408.html#command-get-capabilities). it's just that notify-osd dropped support for those features, which are however pr
<kenvandine_wk> i didn't actually say that, i don't know if there is for the messaging indicator
<kenvandine_wk> notification are different than the indicator
<kenvandine_wk> we are proposing 1.0 of that notification spec
<kenvandine_wk> which doesn't allow for actions
<kenvandine_wk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD for more information
<kenvandine_wk> Ireyon: QUESTION: why not use interactive notifications such as in kde? a singe button labled "update" or so does not disturb, does it?
<kenvandine_wk> i think the answer to that is also explained pretty well on that wiki page
<kenvandine_wk> but, the general idea is a notification is just that
<kenvandine_wk> a notification
<kenvandine_wk> not something to act on
<LjL> doesn't click-through also have to do with that?
<kenvandine_wk>  _marx_: QUESTION: Can Thunderbird communicate with message notifier?
<kenvandine_wk> it could
<kenvandine_wk> but it doesn't yet
<kenvandine_wk> someone needs to add indicator support to TB, not sure if anyone is working on that though
<kenvandine_wk> any more questions?
<kenvandine_wk> if anyone has a application that you really think could benefit from the messaging indicator
<kenvandine_wk> please file bugs
<kenvandine_wk> let us (or upstream) know you use it
<kenvandine_wk> and developers keep an eye out for the next edition of the GNOME Journal for a tutorial
<kenvandine_wk> i guess that's it... thanks for your time
<kenvandine_wk> and i hope the indicator improves your user experience!
<arkarin> just take a short look at https://launchpad.net/libnotify-mozilla for TB-support
<kenvandine_wk> arkarin: thx!
<JFo> wooo kenvandine_wk
<JFo> thanks man
 * Ireyon claps
 * ^arky^ claps
<kenvandine_wk> i guess you guys get a 20m break until the How to market and plan an Ubuntu Party  session starts
<jcastro> huats: 20 minute warning!
<jcastro> thanks kenvandine_wk!
<huats> jcastro: thanks :)
<akgraner> kenvandine_wk, Thanks!
<olive> \o/ 4K !
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1600 UTC: How to Market and Plan a Release Party  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<quesh> \o/
<jcastro> 10 minute warning!
<huats> jcastro: will you be around during the session ?
<huats> (for pasting questions I mean)
<kenvandine_wk> hey!  he didn't do that for me!
<huats> :)
<kenvandine_wk> jcastro should owe me a beer at UDS :)
<jcastro> huats: I am idling around, but if you could paste your own questions so I can get other stuff done today that would be great. :)
<huats> jcastro: sure
<huats> kenvandine_wk: he don't want to get you a beer I think ;)
<kenvandine_wk> ha
<kenvandine_wk> i'll find an excuse
<huats> ;)
<huats> I am sure you will
<huats> or I'll try to help you to find one :D
<jcastro> huats: you can also ask for a volunteer to paste questions if you want more people to participate!
 * kenvandine_wk watches jorge ignore us
<huats> jcastro: I was about to :)
<huats> is there any one here who might help me by pasting questions  from -chat during the next session (I am giving it)
<jcastro> kenvandine_wk: I'm not ignoring you, just selectively listening
<jcastro> 3 minutes!
 * huats is paying a beer at the UDS for the one doing that :)
<mcsean> huats: how long is the session/
<mcsean> ?
<huats> 1h
<mcsean> I can help
<huats> mcsean: ok great
<huats> mcsean: but you need to be on #ubuntu-classroom-chat tosee the questions :)
<mcsean> huats: so, any guidelines/procedures?
<quesh> 18H00
<jcastro> ok huats, take it away!
<jcastro> discussion in -chat please!
<huats> great !
<huats> I think it is time to get started
<huats> right jcastro ?
<jcastro> yep!
<huats> ok
<huats> let's go
<huats> First a little introduction. My name is Christophe Sauthier, and I am the leader of Ubuntu-fr, the french loco.
<huats> I am going to talk about : "How to market and plan an Ubuntu Party"
<huats> please post all you questions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat, starting them by QUESTION:
<huats> and mcsean will paste them here
<huats> (he might filters them a bit)
<huats> For the past few years we (Ubuntu-fr) are getting famous, for many actions
<huats> and in particular our parties which gathered many people
<huats> with "THE" 4000 party that happened in Paris in last November.
<huats> Our team have been asked for some months to detail our best practices. This is what we are getting to do right now.
<huats> I will detail that in this session, feels free to ask all your questions on the dedicated channel. Starting them by QUESTION:
<huats> I will try to answer them inside the session or at the end, in a dedicated time, with the help of others members of the team.
<huats> Ubuntu Party ? What is it ?
<huats> First of all what do we organize ?
<huats> It is important to say that for us, the interest is not to do a simple release party with coders.
<huats> No, we want to share Ubuntu around us, and even more since we want to help to promote free software and free culture by promoting Ubuntu.
<huats> So it is important for us to gather some other communities during our event.
<huats> As a result in our last event there were a conference from the mozilla community, some free software french supporters, some free culture conferences and workshops.
<huats> Date/Place
<huats> The first step is not necessary the most simple :
<huats> to set the perfect date and the perfect place.
<huats> Based on our various experiences, it is a crucial step.
<huats> You have to decide them a long time before the event.
<huats> By instance our next event (16-17 May) dates have been decided in last november !
<huats>  It is important  for your audience to find a place with good public transportations, parking.
<huats> and many stuffs that might help them to come easily
<huats> Even if the place is not famous for its technical conferences, we rather have a place that is know to people, so that they can say
<huats> "if it happens there, in this place that I know, I might find something interesting for me".
<huats> Also try to find a place and (when it is possible) and stick with it...
<huats> We are doing our party in Paris in the same place since feisty.
<huats> So now our audience know the place.
<huats> Is there any questions so far ?
<huats> am I going to quick ? too slow ?
<mcsean> None so far
<olive> any beers ?
<huats> ok
<huats> so let's proceed
<huats> Building a team
<huats> Once you know where and when your event will take place, you can ask yourself :
<huats> who will be there to organize.
<huats> ?
<huats> I am sure you have lots of people in each of your teams willing to help.
<huats> So finding a group of core organizers should not be a real problem.
<huats> But keep in mind that you have to pick people you can rely on
<huats> Currently our group is composed of about 10 people.
<huats> This group is in charge of leading/planning the event from this moment.
<huats> Each tasks should be done by pairs, so that you have backup is someone cannot participate anymore for any reasons.
<huats> And most of all every actions should be trackable on a common repository (we use a wiki).
<huats> Each aspect of the event should be lead by someone designated before the event.
<huats> Imagine that during our last event there was around 100 people willing to help...
<huats> It was needed to have them driven/assigned before the event.
<huats> It is also important to notice that we are doing all our event with the help of LUGs (especially regarding the install party part).
<huats> question ?
<mcsean> QUESTION: how do get the word out to a large number of people?
<huats> We do rely on LUGs for a large part of it
<huats> (especially for the install party which is really people consumming)
<olive> we have big forum
<huats> we also have a lot of volunteers to help
<huats> that are getting in touch thanks to our forums
<huats> in fact we do have a great thing : since we are french speakers, a lot of our community is using our forums
<huats> (the french speaking one)
<huats> it helps to gather the people, and it ease the broadcasting of the informations
<Froad> RAWR
<huats> I'll continue
<huats> Having a team is good.
<mcsean> QUESTION: if you don't have a LUG in your area, has your experience been that a release-party is a great way to get one started up?
<huats> hard to say
<huats> of course you can do a release party without a LUG
<huats> but in that cas you need to start to build a comunity
<huats> and it is a completly different topic that running a party
<huats> I think that in that case
<huats> announcing an event
<huats> might be a great way to meet people with the same interest
<huats> and thus to initiate a community
<huats> not necessary a LUG
<huats> OK I continue
<huats> vent if we spend most of our time on IRC, we really think that there is a need for at least 4 real life meetings for each party :
<huats> 3 before and 1 after.
<huats> It helps to work on the project but also to allow people to know more each other, which is great for the community.
<huats> Each meeting is separated by a month at least.
<huats> Creating a conference Planning
<huats> Since our event is not only an install party, but also filed with  conferences, we have to set up a real conferences planning.
<huats> We start by putting down names of conferencers we like and themes that we would like to have.
<huats> On the first of the IRL meeting, the conferences are selected.
<huats> Then the people in charge of dealing with it contact each envisaged conferencer to explain him the idea and the date.
<akgraner> QUESTION:  I am really new Ubuntu so besides release parties, bug jams, install Fests, what other cool Ubuntu things can you plan a party for?
<huats> We want to have the conference program (with schedule and the conferencers agreement) finalized at least 1 month before the event.
<huats> akgraner: there are many others stuffs to do
<huats> we are about to do some documentation jam, based on the same principles than bug jam but to ensure the quality of our documentation (wiki) which currently gathers thousands of articles
<huats> akgraner: it is not really the aim of that session.Since we are more focussion of Ubuntu Parties in the sense of an evernt that happen to "celebrate" a new release
<huats> We can discuss that later on the -chat channel
<huats> Enlarge the targetted audiences
<huats> We try to interest many kind of audiences.
<huats> People without any backgrounds can come and enjoy our introductions sessions, or our first time hands-on workshops.
<huats> We are also doing some improvements tutorials for advanced users. Bugs Jams also...
<huats> And of course we are doing a install party huge event party during the whole event. People who are here to help for the install party wears badges explaining in which part of Ubuntu they have the best chance to help you (ubuntu ? kubuntu ? xubuntu ? network ?...).
<huats> It is a great help for the people who are attending you session
<huats> since they can easily spot the people who might help them
<huats> But a great event won't be a success
<huats> if there is no pblic
<huats> and to have some
<huats> you need to do some marketting !
<huats> I said previously that the conference planning have to be done1 month before the event
<huats> You might ask yourself (or myself), "why one month ?"
<huats> Because it is the time where we start the biggest part our marketing strategy :)
<huats> I say the biggest part since we have started to briefly announce it to some medias : linux or computer oriented, and "small" media corporations.
<huats> This announcement have been done on the time frame event - 8/7 weeks, in a press communicate that we have validate during one of our IRL meeting (it have to be written before).
<huats> 5 weeks before the event (and up to the event),  we start to annouce the event on personnal blogs.
<huats> 4 weeks before the event (and up to the event), we contact again the media that were already contacted before (weeks 8 and 7 before the event).
<mcsean> QUESTION: how do you communicate with media?
<huats> 1 week before the event we contact all mass media to announce the event. And the week of the event every national medias.
<huats> Of course it is needed to get some contacts with them before that dead line in order to know who to contact...
<huats> So to answer the QUESTION
<huats> we communicate with them using our connections
<huats> :)
<olive> !
<huats> contacting them directly
<huats> olive: he is the one who is doing that
<huats> he can eplain that
<olive> I don't speak english
<huats> ok so I will
<olive> I notice you an answer
<huats> we have a press communicate that we send to the targetted medias
<olive> by mail
<huats> and thereis a press contact at the bottom of it
<huats> and then they contact us :)
<olive> (I am this contact)
<huats> It is important to notice that for many years
<huats> the same press contact have been choosen
<huats> so that there is a relation that start to be established
<huats> Also we do not hesitate to do flyers if there is an event where there is a potential audience that might be interested in our party.
<huats> We did 3000 because we were attending Solution Linux, a business and private event that took place in Paris last months.
<olive> it's not easy everyday !
<huats> Oh and one final word : you do need to publish every media you have contacted to tell them the result of your event.
<huats> It is a great asset for the next time you'll contact them to announce an event. In the same idea, you need to publish on various blog/website pictures/summary of the event.
<huats> Logistics
<huats> You plan to sell some stuffs to earn some money for your team ?
<huats> Great we do so. But you must dedicate a pair of people for handling that. Looking for the best rates, harassement of the good producer is really time consuming...
<huats> We have someone who is taking care of ordering the CDs, the Tshirts and of the goodies that we have...
<mcsean> QUESTION: How much would you have to spend up-front and how much would you get back?
<huats> can you explain a little more your question ?
<huats> there is no rulefor that
<mcsean> What are the upfront costs for purchasing the items you mentioned for a release party: CDs, TShirts, Etc
<huats> it depends a lot in the scale you are doing
<huats> by instance we are doing more than 3000 CD for each release
<olive> 3500 this time
<huats> (I know I said more than  :)
<huats> there is no golden rule for the cost by item
<olive> (Oh yes, you'r right)
<huats> since each item have a different price
<huats> mcsean: canonical provides 300 CD for each approved loco for each release
<huats> but we need ay much more than that
<huats> Since there is not more question I am continuing
<huats> The event !
<huats> Just 2 words : smile and enjoy... Smile because it will be a hard day. Enjoy once it is done, and smile because it has been a success..
<mcsean> So, for a group that's just getting started, forming a loco and then planning a release party would be a good plan.
<huats> mcsean: indeed
<huats> The step would be the debrieffing
<huats> Each organizer have the right to express his feelings. And it helps to improve for the next time...
<huats> It is what is done during the IRL meeting after the event
<huats> it helps us to set some areas of improvments
<huats> Any questions ?
<huats> jcastro: if not it is done
<didrocks> just note : IRL meeting are very important because you can express more directly than IRC one. Also, it's a good excuse to take a beer too :)
<huats> :)
<mcsean> QUESTION: this process, your experience seems quite efficient. how long has it taken to get to this point?
<huats> didrocks: if you had attended it you have noticed that I stressed IRL meetings
<huats> :)
<olive> beers and "betises de cambrai"
<didrocks> olive: just once ;)
<huats> QUESTION: this process, your experience seems quite efficient. how long has it taken to get to this point?
<huats> We are doing our parties to the same place since feisty...
<huats> and there was some small one befre :)
<huats> so it is quite a long process :)
<olive> 100 vs 1200
<huats> it is far from being perfect
<huats> but it gets better and better
<olive> (100 = dapper and edgy)
<huats> So I think it is it
<olive> QUESTION: can you give us somes pictures ?
<huats> What can I say more ? That everyone is welcome to come to the next Ubuntu Party that we have in Paris 16-17 May :) If someone is around please ping/email me !
<huats> QUESTION: crisis points/ serious strains on event day? what has gone wrong or really taught you something to improve?
<mcsean> QUESTION: crisis points/ serious strains on event day? what has gone wrong or really taught you something to improve?
<huats> :)
<olive> We can say, where is Mark ?
<huats> there are always some crisis
<huats> :)
<olive> no. no crisis
<huats> we had a big stress because "we lost" 400 Tshirts
<huats> :)
<huats> but no real crisis
<huats> some small event that we have always been able to manage
<olive> everything is perfect
<didrocks> mcsean: those parties can emphasize your "serial killer" side between organizers. Then, just take a brief, and show must go on :)
<huats> Thanks everyone
<huats> jcastro: the channel is yours
<huats> :)
<didrocks> congrats huats \o/
<indSpike> thanks huats
<huats> well in fact kirkland the channel is YOURS :)
<olive> thanks huats
<kirkland> howdy everyone!
<quesh> \o/
<kirkland> i'll wait a couple of minutes to start, however, I have a live demo!
<migue_> hi all
<kirkland> so fire up your ssh clients
<huats> thanks mcsean, olive, didrocks, quesh and everyone who participated
<kirkland> ssh -C guest@ec2-174-129-109-134.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> the password is "guest"
<didrocks> kirkland: excellent :)
<huats> kirkland: great !
<mcsean> QUESTION: Should there be some sort of non-required subscription when organizing a (small) Release-party to have an idea on how many people will show up at least and if yes, is there an easy way to keep track of subscribed people?
<JFo> nice screensaver kirkland
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1700 UTC: Encrypted Home Directories  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Ireyon> cool^^
<jcastro> kirkland: whenever you're ready!
<kirkland> Okay, everyone ... let's get started
<kirkland> so i will be demonstrating Encrypted Home Directories in Ubuntu Jaunty
<kirkland> it will be helpful if you're listening here in IRC, and also observing via a shared screen session to a server I'm hosting in Amazon's EC2
<kirkland> to connect to that, please: ssh -C guest@ec2-174-129-109-134.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> the password is "guest"
<kirkland> (the screen saver you see running is a fun little program in Universe called "cmatrix")
<kirkland> i'm going to kill that now :-)
<kirkland> alrighty!
<kirkland> so i did one of these sessions 6 months ago after the Intrepid release, and introduced Encrypted Private Directories
<kirkland> which was new for Intrepid
<kirkland> basically, I created a very simple mechanism by which you could setup a single folder in your home directory, statically called "Private"
<kirkland> for encryption
<kirkland> when you'd login, this folder would be "mounted"
<kirkland> and you could read/write data to/from that folder like any other non-encrypted folder
<kirkland> but when you logged out, the contents of that folder was locked away in encryption
<kirkland> in the Intrepid timeframe, it was possible, though non-trivial, to move some key information into ~/Private
<kirkland> and symlink them back to their traditional locations
<kirkland> so, i moved stuff like .gnupg, .ssh, .firefox, .evolution, .xchat, and so on
<kirkland> into my ~/Private
<kirkland> and put symlinks where they "belonged"
<kirkland> this worked pretty well
<kirkland> i certainly so no performance degradation
<kirkland> and i could rest assured that *some* of my personal data was locked away in encryption
<kirkland> however, i had to be very conscious about moving importation information into ~/Private
<kirkland> so i spent about 8 hours on a plane flying to Paris, and hacked Encrypted Home Directories :-)
<kirkland> basically, making $HOME, rather than $HOME/Private to mount point for your "private" location
<kirkland> and, believe it or not, I think it works pretty well ....
<kirkland> there might be a few road bumps and a few usability issues that we're improving for Karmic
<kirkland> but I'm trusting all of my $HOME data to it
<kirkland> I like this for a few reasons ...
<kirkland> now, there's certainly a place for full disk (LVM) encryption
<kirkland> but there are a few drawbacks
<kirkland> namely, 1) a password is required just to "boot" your system, which kinda negates some of the hard work we've done to get Jaunty's boot performance improvements
<kirkland> 2) the whole disk is encrypted, even stuff that doesn't need to be encrypted, like /lib and /usr/bin, and so on
<kirkland> 3) it's impossible to incrementally sync (backup) the actual encrypted data
<kirkland> these are 3 things that we can actually solve with encrypted home directories using eCryptfs in Ubuntu Jaunty
<kirkland> okay so ....
<kirkland> there are basically 3 ways to setup an encrypted home directory ...
<kirkland> 1) from the alternate/server installer
<kirkland> if you use this, you are considered an "advanced" user, and you will get a prompt, asking you if you want to encrypt your home directory\
<kirkland> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/SahvvshQ09I/AAAAAAAAAN0/Q3HM5sSKbb4/s1600-h/server.png
<kirkland> that's a screen shot of that question
<kirkland> 2) if you're using the desktop installer, you need to give a special pre-seed value
<kirkland> basically, in the bootloader of the liveCD, you hit F6, and add an option to the kernel boot line
<kirkland> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/Sahw4ryafQI/AAAAAAAAAOE/q2e-nmYWi_A/s1600-h/installer.png
<kirkland> Add "user-setup/encrypt-home=true" just before the "--".
<kirkland> if you do this, you will reveal an additional radio button on the user creation page of the graphical installer
<kirkland> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-mej0A6dVeU/Sahv4yrc2QI/AAAAAAAAAN8/s2J-fJ7Ne7w/s1600-h/desktop.png
<kirkland> for more information about this, please see: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/02/jaunty-encrypted-home-directories.html
<kirkland> now, i'm sure everyone here has already installed jaunty!
<kirkland> so 3) adding a user to an installed system
<kirkland> now for the demo ...
<kirkland> okay, looking over at our ssh session, i'm going to create a new user, and specify that their home is to be encrypted
<kirkland> actually, first, i'm going to install ecryptfs
<kirkland> ecryptfs-utils is now installed
<kirkland> sudo adduser --encrypt-home foo1
<kirkland> YOU SHOULD RECORD THIS MOUNT PASSPHRASE AND STORE IN A SAFE LOCATION:
<kirkland> 21a723343815414dcd74842704d2eb18
<kirkland> THIS WILL BE REQUIRED IF YOU NEED TO RECOVER YOUR DATA AT A LATER TIME.
<kirkland> this is a very important point ....
<kirkland> any time you're using Ubuntu's Encrypted Private or Encrypted Home feature, it is absolutely critical that you write down the rrandomly generated passphrase
<kirkland> if you need to restore your data from backups later, you *must* have this password
<kirkland> this is a rather strong, 128bit random string
<kirkland> very difficult to guess!
<kirkland> okay, now i'm going to set a passphrase for foo1
<kirkland> this is the system login passphrase
<kirkland> okay, foo1 is created
<kirkland> let's nose around a little ...
<kirkland> note that as user "ubuntu" i can't see into their homedir
<kirkland> this is because dr-x------  3 foo1   foo1   4096 2009-04-29 17:13 foo1/
<kirkland> this home dir is 500 perm'd by default
<kirkland> such that even foo1 can't write into it
<kirkland> that's to protect them from inadvertently writing data into their unencrypted mountpoint
<kirkland> okay, so now I can sudo and look in foo1's home dir
<kirkland> i see a couple of symlinks, and a README.txt
<kirkland> i'm going to now, as root, look through foo1's homedir
<kirkland> as you can see from the README, it's explaining that this dir is not mounted
<kirkland> the actual encrypted data actually lives in .Private
<kirkland> and as you can see here, the filenames themselves are obfuscated
<kirkland> if i try to look at the contents of one of these files, we should only see encrypted garbage
<kirkland> bingo
<kirkland> okay, now, let's login as foo1
<kirkland> alright, i'm now logged in as foo1
<kirkland> (at this point, you can pretend you're in a gnome or kde session)
<kirkland> (the magic is the same)
<kirkland> (your logging in through gdm/kdm would have performed the same operations, which i'll explain in detail if we have time)
<kirkland> now, as foo1, i can see my filenames :-)
<kirkland> and I can read my configuration files
<kirkland> let's take a look at the mountpoint itself
<kirkland> /home/foo1/.Private on /home/foo1 type ecryptfs (ecryptfs_sig=3c9d14d7ce3af0d0,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=55e8342f969450c1,ecryptfs_cipher=aes,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16)
<kirkland> these are the details of the ecryptfs mount
<kirkland> note that I can't see my encrypted .Private directory at this point
<kirkland> let's check that out
<kirkland> to do this, i'm going to have to unmount my homedir
<kirkland> which is going to render it read-only
<kirkland> in practice YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL DOING THIS
<kirkland> ie, do it at a command prompt, when nothing else is running as your user
<kirkland> okay, now, we're in the unencrypted mountpoint, as foo1
<kirkland> and again, i can get to my private data
<kirkland> for backup purposes
<kirkland> i, for one, make nightly copies of my encrypted data, using rsync, to my co-lo server
<kirkland> as you can see I can't write anything in this dir
<kirkland> but if I look at the README.txt, i can get some instructions on how to re-establish my mount
<kirkland> now i'm prompted to enter my login passphrase
<kirkland> and $HOME is mounted again!
<kirkland> okay, i'm going to pause for a minute and field a few questions
<kirkland> jcastro: are you around?  would you mind serving them up?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> <JFo> QUESTION: Is it possible to do this with remote home dirs?
<kirkland> JFo: please clarify "remote"
<kirkland> JFo: you mean on an NFS or Samba share?
<JFo> yes
<kirkland> JFo: how I wish :-)
<JFo> heh
<JFo> I was afraid of that
<kirkland> tyhicks is working on this
<kirkland> JFo: it's a long, and well understood bug in the kernel
<kirkland> JFo: we're *really* hoping to have this fixed for Karmic
<kirkland> JFo: that one has been a dream of mine for a long time ;-)
<JFo> I bet
<kirkland> jcastro: any others?
<jcastro> <rufong> QUESTION: law enforcement myth or reality/ anything on a hdd is recoverable?
<jcastro> we have a few more questions so just say "next" when you want the next one
<kirkland> rufong: interesting question, really
<kirkland> rufong: http://citp.princeton.edu/memory/
<kirkland> rufong: from that princeton university study, they show that RAM contents can be gather up to a few minutes after powering a system off
<kirkland> rufong: so if law enforcement (or your attacker) can get to your ram contents, they could possibly find your keys
<kirkland> and render any form of encryption (even LVM, Truecrypt, BitKeeper, etc) useless
<kirkland> however, i stand behind the design of eCryptfs
<kirkland> and in particular the design of Ubuntu's Encrypted Home
<kirkland> and Encrypted Private
<kirkland> i think it'll stand up to most attackers
<kirkland> a well funded attacker is a different story
<kirkland> ie, someone with infinite time and computing resources
<kirkland> but the guy on the train who steals your netbook so he can off it to a pawn shop ...
<kirkland> he might spend a few minutes looking for credit card numbers, or other personal info
<kirkland> not seeing that, chances are very likely that he'll move on, wipe the drive
<kirkland> jcastro: any others?
<jcastro> <Fabu> QUESTION: which encryption algorithms are supported by ecryptfs and how can i change the one used?
<kirkland> jcastro: actually, back to that last one ...
<kirkland> so back to the law enforcement question ...
<kirkland> i've made it pretty clear on my blog and in my documentation
<kirkland> if the user has access to your "wrapped-passphrase file" (more on that in a minute)
<kirkland> they can then attack that file with your system login passphrase
<kirkland> and if they have your /etc/shadow, they can attack your system login passphrase that way too
<kirkland> so IT'S IMPERATIVE to have a good system login passphrase
<kirkland> keep that safe, and secret
<kirkland> as for your wrapped passphrase, I'm going to show you a really cool technique to make your system more secure
<kirkland> Fabu: eCryptfs supports all of the algortihms supported by the Linux Kernel
<kirkland> Fabu: that said, for Ubuntu's Encrypted Private and Encrypted Home, we have hard coded that to AES
<kirkland> this is for support reasons
<kirkland> i needed to constrain the system a bit, to a realistic set of variables
<kirkland> varying on the cipher was not something i wanted to do (at least initially)
<kirkland> if you know and understand how to construct eCryptfs mount options yourself, however ...
<kirkland>  ... you can choose a different cypher
<Pollywog> oh I arrived late  :(
<kirkland> /home/foo1/.Private on /home/foo1 type ecryptfs (ecryptfs_sig=3c9d14d7ce3af0d0,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=55e8342f969450c1,ecryptfs_cipher=aes,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16)
<kirkland> ecryptfs_cipher=aes
<kirkland> that's one of the options eCryptfs accepts
<kirkland> you could add your own custom /etc/fstab entries and such
<kirkland> however, you will be in a configuration that I won't be able to support you as Ubuntu's eCryptfs maintainer
<kirkland> good luck ;-)
<kirkland> jcastro: any others?
<jcastro> <shadowland> QUESTION: Mac OS X dumps everything in one enormous .dmg encrypted.  Is Jaunty storing each file separately encrypted?
<jcastro> <shadowland> The one big image is scary because if it gets corrupted, all the data inside is toast
<kirkland> shadowland: yes!  that is the fundamental design of eCryptfs
<kirkland> shadowland: and I *love* that aspect
<kirkland> shadowland: quick annecdote ...
<kirkland> shadowland: I used to tar and gpg my whole homedir on a monthly basis, and burn that 4GB file to a DVD
<kirkland> shadowland: one time i actually wanted to restore it
<kirkland> shadowland: well, dvd media being what it is (crap), there was some (perhaps tiny) bit of that gpg file that was corrupted
<kirkland> thus, that backup wasn't worth anything!
<Pollywog> I have a question that might have already been asked... how do I login to my system from a laptop (ssh) if I am not logged in at the remote system.  Is there a better way than that of putting my ssh keys in /etc/.ssh/  ?  If this has already been answered, I will check the conference logs later
<kirkland> same goes for a single file in Mac OS X
<kirkland> Pollywog: please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and wait your turn
<Pollywog> k
<kirkland> shadowland: there's one other tremendous advantage
<kirkland> shadowland: and that's back to the incremental backups
<kirkland> shadowland: i can do something like rsync $HOME/.Private/  root@remote:/backup/
<kirkland> and sync only the files that changed
<kirkland> which is far more reasonable than trying to rsync a multi-GB file
<kirkland> so on to the backups questions ...
<kirkland> there are a few improvements we're trying to make in this area in the Karmic timeframe
<kirkland> however, my backup script for now looks something like this:
<kirkland> umount.ecryptfs_private && cd && mount.ecryptfs_private
<kirkland> that one liner unmounts, cd's to my $HOME, and mounts, very quickly
<kirkland> the net is that my script is now in the unmounted homedir
<kirkland> at this point, I can rsync -aP .Private/ <offsite>
<kirkland> jcastro: next?
<jcastro> <shadowland> QUESTION: How is the backup affected if a user has open files when the backup runs?  Are the backed up files usable if restored later?
<kirkland> jcastro: maybe, maybe not
<kirkland> jcastro: all depends on how your underlying filesystem works, what's sync'd, etc.
<kirkland> shadowland: ideally, you'd run your backups when other things aren't running
<kirkland> shadowland: i expect we might have a little more work to do in this arena
<kirkland> tyhicks is our kernel expert from IBM ;-)
<kirkland> <Fabu> QUESTION: I'm currently using Truecrypt for encrypting a 1TB hdd, should i switch to ecryptfs? If yes why (most important would be performance issues)?
<kirkland> Fabu: well, i can't be objective on this one :-)
<kirkland> i prefer eCryptfs, but I'm the maintainer :-)
<kirkland> if you're happy with Trucrypt, it does everything you want, I don't suppose there's a compelling reason to change
<kirkland> however, the last time i looked at truecrypt, there were some serious licensing concerns
<kirkland> that was keeping it from making it into fedora and ubuntu
<kirkland> (ecryptfs is gplv2)
<kirkland> <mcsean> QUESTION: can you show us how you'd encrypt a specific dir or mount (not just a home dir)?
<kirkland> mcsean: good question
<kirkland> mcsean: let's go back over to our demo environment
<kirkland> i'm going to create a new user, foo2
<kirkland> who doesn't have an encrypted home dir
<kirkland> and show you how foo2 would create an encrypted private
<kirkland> this is mostly what we did in Intrepid, but it's still a useful feature in Jaunty
<kirkland> especially if you use Gnome's auto-login feature
<kirkland> but you want to protect some subset of your home directory
<kirkland> (note that encrypted-home and auto-login are TOTALLY incompatible for hopefully obvious reasons!)
<kirkland> okay foo2 created, no encrypted home
<kirkland> loggin in as foo2
<kirkland> no encrypted home mount
<kirkland> okay, running ecryptfs-setup-private to create my Private dir
<kirkland> entering my login passphrase
<kirkland> now, i have a choice ...
<kirkland> i can choose to select my mount passphrase
<kirkland> or randomly generate it
<kirkland> i *always* randomly generate it
<kirkland> as this is more secure
<kirkland> but i *must* remember to write it down
<kirkland> cool, it's setup now
<kirkland> okay, so i need to logout and log back in for it to take effect
<kirkland> and now, i can see Private mounted
<kirkland> \o/
<kirkland> let's put some data in there
<kirkland> cooll, so i have data in there now
<kirkland> let's unmount it and see
<kirkland> not mounted, good
<kirkland> let's check the encrypted data
<kirkland> encrypted filenames, encrypted file contents
<kirkland> sweet
<kirkland> mcsean: i'll show you one more thing ...
<kirkland> as an admin, i can do lots of other things with ecryptfs
<kirkland> arbitrary mountpoints and such
<kirkland> again, back to our screen session, let's see this
<kirkland> sudo mount -t ecryptfs /tmp/encrypted/ /tmp/decrypted/
<kirkland> i should get a list of interactive questions
<kirkland> first, a passphrase for this mount
<kirkland> next, the cipher i want
<kirkland> (didn't someone ask about what ciphers are supported?)
<kirkland> Select cipher:
<kirkland>  1) aes: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  2) blowfish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  3) des3_ede: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 24; max keysize = 24 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  4) twofish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  5) cast6: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<Fabu> yes me thanks :)
<kirkland>  6) cast5: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 5; max keysize = 16 (not loaded)
<kirkland> /tmp/encrypted on /tmp/decrypted type ecryptfs (rw,ecryptfs_sig=c7fed37c0a341e19,ecryptfs_cipher=blowfish,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=c7fed37c0a341e19,ecryptfs_unlink_sigs)
<kirkland> voila
<kirkland> arbitrary ecryptfs mount
<kirkland> you'd want to save this off, or put it into /etc/fstab if you want to use it more
<kirkland> okay, now I want to get to one more important point
<kirkland> this is related to: <stesind> QUESTION: could you pls show how to store the passphrase on a usb stick?
<kirkland> so i mentioned that you could make it much harder on your attacker, if they didn't have your system password and your wrapped-passphrase
<kirkland> here's a bit about what's going on ...
<kirkland> when you login via PAM
<kirkland> you give a system password, like 'abc123'
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<kirkland> this is used to "unwrap" or decrypt your wrapped-passphrase
<kirkland> this file is stored in $HOME/.ecryptfs/wrapped-passphrase
<kirkland> which is *actually* in /var/lib/ecryptfs/$USER/wrapped-passphrase
<kirkland> let's go take a look in our demo window
<kirkland> first, let's unwrap it and see ...
<kirkland> so our "simple" abc123 passphrase decrypts our random, hard mount passphrase 21a723343815414dcd74842704d2eb18
<kirkland> so what i've done on my system is I've litterally "moved" my wrapped-passphrase file to usb storage
<kirkland> (see the window for the demo)
<Pollywog> QUESTION: is there a way to generate a new passphrase in case I failed to record it when I installed Ubuntu?
<Pollywog> oops sorry
<kirkland> so i now have a pretend usb stick in /tmp
<kirkland> (put it on a real one, and add it to your /etc/fstab)
<stesind> :)
<kirkland> i moved my wrapped-passphrase file to something perhaps less obvious, ".trash"
<kirkland> and put a symlink in place
<kirkland> now, i have to have that in place to login to the system
<kirkland> so i logged in successfully
<kirkland> now, i'm going to remove it
<kirkland> (pretend, remove usb key)
<kirkland> okay, i did that out of order
<kirkland> but there we go ...
<kirkland> home dir data not available
<kirkland> okay, i'm done!
<jcastro> whew!
<kirkland> ask more questions in -chat, i'll try to answer
<jcastro> ok, thanks dustin!
<jcastro> Up next we have didrocks with some GNOME Desktop team goodness.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1800 UTC: How the GNOME Desktop Team Works  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<didrocks> kirkland: I can give you five extra minutes if you need them :)
<didrocks> give*
<jcastro> didrocks: why don't we give people 5 minutes to take a break?
<didrocks> jcastro: it's possible too, classroom back in 5 minutes :)
<mmek> smoke break :)
<didrocks> kirkland: I think it will be usefull that you copy/paste the shell session too, joining it to the session log
<JFo> thanks much kirkland
 * ^arky^ claps 
<jcastro> didrocks: ok, fire away!
<didrocks> DING DONG, it's time to start. Through away your cigarettes and come on! :)
<jcastro> discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please!
<didrocks> The presentation will be about what ubuntu desktop team is, what we are doing, how we organizeâ¦
<didrocks> This one is largely inspired by seb128's lesson during last Developers'week (THANKS seb ;)).
<didrocks> Then, we will do a question-answer session. Hope you will be interested in it! As usual, you can ask your question at #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<didrocks> is there a volonteer to handle them?
<didrocks> ok, will see then :D
<didrocks> The Ubuntu Desktop Team is the team working on most of the Ubuntu GNOME desktop applications.
<didrocks> The team is a mix of people working full time for canonical and contributors.
<didrocks> There is many ways to contact and find us, even if we try to get hidden :)
<didrocks> - #ubuntu-desktop for IRC on freenode
<didrocks> - ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list (low traffic)
<didrocks> - desktop-bugs and ubuntu-desktop launchpad teams
<YoBoY> Hi
<didrocks> The first team is subscribed to every bug reported against a desktop related soft.
<didrocks> so, if you subscribed, you will get spammed :)
<didrocks> think to set up a filter for those mails
<didrocks> - The team has weekly IRC meeting on #ubuntu-desktop, they are at 16:00UTC on Tuesday, but regarding the timeframe, most of people there are Canonical guys ;)
<didrocks> So, what are we doing?
<didrocks> We are working on the desktop packages, the rough list is on https://launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs.
<didrocks> as you can see, there is really a bunch of packages
<didrocks> all bugs against those packages will be in our backlog
<didrocks> We are dealing mainly with two tasks:
<didrocks> - updating the desktop packages when new versions are available (especially GNOME ones)
<didrocks> - trying to work on the corresponding bugs lists, triaging the bugs and work with upstream to get those resolved
<didrocks> hopefully, we have good relations with GNOME upstream :)
<didrocks> one member of the team is a Canonical employee, another a volonteer
<didrocks> and we have also some people from the GNOME release team idling on our IRC channel
<didrocks> ok, going back to packages
<didrocks> Most of the packages are coming from the debian pkg-gnome team.
<didrocks> We try to keep those packages in sync with Debian as much as possible and send their our changes to them.
<didrocks> some changes, as launchpad integration, does not fit Debian. So, we keep this delta for us
<didrocks> but remember that, as for every team, the delta between Debian as us has to be as little as possible :)
<didrocks> But contrary to Debian, we do package unstable version update earlier than them and carry some ubuntu specific changes though.
<didrocks> For instance, Debian generally doesn't upload unstable GNOME version.
<didrocks> we do, because we need to update GNOME very quickly when getting the stable version
<didrocks> The new GNOME release is generally out 3 days from ubuntu beta.
<didrocks> Consequently, we have only very few time to update the bunch of GNOME packages.
<didrocks> That's why we prefer to detect as soon as possible regression, changes in packaging we have to do, so that the new GNOME version still compile in Ubuntu
<didrocks> Also, providing unstable GNOME version in alpha release of Ubuntu is better for all Ubuntu QA
<didrocks> And as most of people us the Ubuntu vanilla version, everyone is possibly a GNOME tester :)
<didrocks> To sum up, we mostly updates packages when GNOME roll new tarballs and we backport upstream fixes from svn.
<didrocks> Just to notice, the packaging is mostly done using cdbs. (this is more intended for developpers) ;)
<didrocks> Organization:
<didrocks> To organize those updates, we current have somebody looking at the new upstream tarballs and noticing what upgrade we need to do in ubuntu.
<didrocks> Tasks are usually splitted on IRC (ie, upgrade are assigned to people there) and people are free to claim tarballs they want to work on.
<didrocks> Contributors, that is to say, people who don't have upload rights, use bugs on launchpad to get their work reviewed (usually it's easy to get review since the team is quite active and you often find people to help on IRC)
<didrocks> Some issue with the current workflow is that "somebody" is mostly seb128 and this is a huge task!
<didrocks> Even if he is some kind of superman, he can't be live 24h a days (what he really can't? O_o)
<didrocks> <Riddell> QUESTION: how many people are on the team?
<didrocks> Riddell: less than Kubuntu ;)
<didrocks> So, let's say we have 7-8 people doing active work
<didrocks> (some of them being full time canonical employees)
<didrocks> double the number if you count people helping on bug triage, etc.
<didrocks> Riddell: we would love to have some kind of "ninja" team as it is the case for Kubuntu
<didrocks> Riddell: I will talk about futur and Kubuntu desktop team/ubuntu desktop team cooperation later :)
<didrocks> QUESTION: what is the view of gnome upstream on ubuntu and linux in general comparing to other distros and platform (freebsd, opensolaris, etc.) ?
<didrocks> well, don't know really well what to answer to that question
<didrocks> regarding GNOME ML, most of people seems to use linux
<didrocks> but GNOME wants to be agnostic regarding plateform, and I see it working very well on opensolaris
<didrocks> reading planet GNOME, you can see that there are a bunch of opensolaris addict there :)
<didrocks> I think that ubuntu is quite liked there. There seems to be fedora, opensuse and ubuntu users.
<didrocks> <Riddell> QUESTION: does the team do any coding?
<didrocks> mostly bug fixes
<didrocks> but there are some development by mvo to update manager
<didrocks> and add/remove softwares
<didrocks> bug fixes are always pushed upstream, and some people on the team have commit right in GNOME svn
<didrocks> oooopsss, git (from just a few days) ;)
<didrocks> <Riddell> QUESTION: what's the reaction been to the DX team's notification changes?
<didrocks> wellâ¦ quite divided
<didrocks> some part of the team were very disappointed by this direction takenâ¦
<didrocks> some others were convinced it was the right way to go
<didrocks> it was not uninamous if this is what you want to know
<didrocks> (the core critize is about the "non action button" or "default action")
<didrocks> hopefully, for people who don't like it, there is a way to go back
<didrocks> so, the old notification system is still present
<didrocks> to make better the cooperation with the DX team, some of them are idling on the channel too now
<didrocks> <Riddell> QUESTION: is the change to git causing problems for people who aren't experts in revision control?  e.g. translators
<didrocks> yes, a lot of spam in the GNOME devel ML :)
<didrocks> that's normal, I think, when you change your VCS and some people aren't used to distributed VCS
<didrocks> the migration was well prepared
<didrocks> and I think it was as slick as possible. Good work from people release team :)
<didrocks> <cody-somerville> The DX team is using git?
<didrocks> cody-somerville: no, it's upstream GNOME who migrated
<didrocks> <awkorama> QUESTION: what do you think is gnome killer application and what application does it miss the most?
<didrocks> awkorama: I tested recently KDE 4 and wellâ¦ maybe there are some good ideas to take from it
<didrocks> especially all those widgets, moving them from taskbar to desktop
<didrocks> well, plasmoÃ¯d seems to be a very good concept
<didrocks> the GNOME killer app for me is gnome-shell :)
<didrocks> it's quite still experimental and will be finished for GNOME 3.0
<didrocks> but rethinking the desktop user experience is the way to go, and removing the VFS view to organize by activities is a very good idea
<didrocks> (bonus point for KDE in this area)
<didrocks> <gregknicholson> QUESTION: Oo! Gnome-shell! Will we get to play with the beta of that in Karmic (2.28)?
<didrocks> gregknicholson: I really don't think so :)
<didrocks> this is _really_ really experimental :)
<didrocks> and there are some raised issue
<didrocks> for instance, gnome-shell needs a 3D card hw
<didrocks> (it uses clutter)
<didrocks> and is incompatible with compiz
<didrocks> if I have the time, I will drop a package in my ppa
<didrocks> well, no more question, just going on
<didrocks> I was talking about the centralized dispatch of work
<didrocks> So, the idea will be to do some kind of seb128-bot :)
<didrocks> More seriously, this is a domain we have to improve.
<didrocks> Basically, we want a website to take some "lock" for updating packages, noticing general contributor to this package, unlocking after a period of timeâ¦
<didrocks> I will try to put some work there to integrate it with bzr and debcheckout so that we don't have added administrative paper work and organize better :)
<didrocks> Some ideas are a website + an IRC bot, and enventually some tools to integrate with developper's tools
<didrocks> We are also integrating more and more bzr for package. Have a look there for a step by step process: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr.
<didrocks> A lot of packages are there: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/
<didrocks> Using a VCS for packaging enables us to do a better tracking, for cherrypicking changes, making SRU, and so onâ¦
<didrocks> This is an on-going process and some workflows as yet to be decided (for instance, on merges)
<didrocks> On a technical side upgrades are usually standard version updates, some of them are very easy, so good low hanging fruits for new volonteers!
<didrocks> Some are tricker with (soname changes, change to build system, new binaries added, waiting for new dependencies on libgda3 (takes that huats! :p)
<didrocks> I gave a talk on "how to update a package" sumurizing the main steps to check.
<didrocks> You can find it at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-04-16 and I won't go into any further details :)
<didrocks> We also discuss desktop changes, new components to install by default or not, configuration changes, etc.
<didrocks> I think that's enough for presenting the team, we are friendly and it's surprisingly quite a small team for so many packages.
<didrocks> So, don't be shy and come ;)
<didrocks> Also, do not hesitate to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam. There are a collection of good references there.
<didrocks> Now, rooms for questions , just fire up! :)
<didrocks> <SiDi> QUESTION : What is gnome shell ? :)
<didrocks> oh sorry ;)
<didrocks> gnome shell is the new layout and engine that will be settled in GNOME 3
<didrocks> the idea is to rethink the main desktop layout
<didrocks> basically, removing the two boards
<didrocks> and presenting some kind of "activities", that enables you to launch applications and tasks
<didrocks> let me look for screenshots
<didrocks> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screenshots
<didrocks> very different from current desktop, isn't? :)
<didrocks> <awkorama> QUESTION: do you personally use any app that replaces gnome default (and why) ?
<didrocks> awkorama: no, as I'm upgrading and testing a lot of packages I made (yes, I want to TEST your packages before uploading), I even have the default desktop background :)
<didrocks> I tried gnome-do
<didrocks> wasn't really convinced and too used to drop a gnome-terminal with alt-f2 to care about it :)
<didrocks> <gregknicholson> Follow-up QUESTION â¦'cos the Gnome roadmap says Gnome-shell beta will land in time for 2.28: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/ âin your view is that too optimistic?
<didrocks> hum, to be honest, looking at upstream discussion about GNOME 3, nobody is certain that GNOME 2.30 = GNOME 3.0
<didrocks> it will be maybe GNOME 2.32
<didrocks> (for the record, we currently have GNOME 2.26)
<didrocks> so, less than one year to make GNOME 3 a reality seems very short
<didrocks> ok, changing from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 is not a complete rewriting contrary to KDE
<didrocks> it will certainly be easier
<didrocks> but still, if you drop the boards to replace by gnome-shell
<didrocks> you have to rewrite all applets systems
<didrocks> will see, if we have the time to propose a package, we will do :)
<didrocks> for instance, there is a package for gdm 2.26 in universe
<didrocks> (the current used gdm is 2.20, as in every distribution)
<didrocks> because gdm 2.22 was a complete rewrite and some features are still missingâ¦
<didrocks> well, futur
<didrocks> I really hope to make ubuntu desktop team and kubuntu desktop team closer
<didrocks> I already tried to make some updates in the ninja team
<didrocks> it was really a great experience
<nixternal> \o/
<didrocks> hey nixternal \o/
<sebsebseb> apparantly  Gnome in 9.04 lacks certain features, such as for example new GDM screen
<didrocks> people are rellly friendly there too
<didrocks> sebsebseb: you can see what I told about GDM just before
<sebsebseb> didrocks: yeah in the log?
<didrocks> so, I think that at UDS, I will get closer to kde team, so that we can share our process
<didrocks> and take the best of our two worlds :)
<didrocks> sebsebseb: [20:51] <didrocks> because gdm 2.22 was a complete rewrite and some features are still missingâ¦
<didrocks> <^arky^> Question: The Shutdown / Quit option in System menu disappears when you have Gdm auto login enabled. This creates problems to some user like the blind screen reader users. Do you often do usability testing with blind users in mind.
<didrocks> ^arky^: normally, the QA team does some usability tests
<didrocks> didn't know about that
<didrocks> a workaround is to remove the FUSA applet
<didrocks> (the applet with your name, where you can Shutdown / Quit)
<didrocks> the old menu items will magically appears again :)
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<didrocks> ^arky^: I think it's time to open a bug :D
<didrocks> (against FUSA, it will be the best)
<bruce89> sebsebseb: right, I'm here
<didrocks> Riddell: the FUSA applet is an other example of coding by the team
<didrocks> well, it seems there is no remaining questions
<sebsebseb> didrocks: I think there might be
<bruce89> ha
<sebsebseb> bruce89: as I said here's your chance to ask some questions
<didrocks> bruce89: ? :)
<bruce89> I don't feel like trying to convince Ubuntu people to change their mind
<sebsebseb> or not hum
<jcastro> discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<didrocks> I think, yes, the time is almost over, let's continue on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bruce89> fair enough, just as well I left Ubuntu, bye
<didrocks> thanks to everybody who partipated to it :)
<jcastro> ok, thanks didrocks!
 * ^arky^ claps 
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1900 UTC: Kubuntu Q+A  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<didrocks> see you on #ubuntu-desktop ;)
<JFo> thanks didrocks
<JFo> great session
<jcastro> ok, we'll take a few minutes, then it's nixternal and Riddell with Kubuntu Q+A
<sebsebseb> didrocks: oh I got a good question, where to ask it?
<didrocks> sebsebseb: on -chat, please :)
<nixternal> 100 more and we will be cooler than sabdfl!!!
<jcastro> ok, whenever you guys want to kick it off
<Eveready> you mean... Self Appointed Benevolant Dictator for Life?
<Eveready> chuckle
<jcastro> Ok, remember to keep discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, and preface your questions with QUESTION:
<Riddell> Good evening friends
<Riddell> me and nixternal here have been scheduled for a Kubuntu Q & A session
<nixternal> howdy from Chicago! No cases of Swine Flu here yet!
<Riddell> I already  had lots of good questions on monday, but now we need lots more
<Riddell> let's introduce ourselves
<Riddell> nixternal: who are you and what  do you do?
<nixternal> My name is Richard Johnson, I am a wanna-be developer here in the Ubuntu world, a wanna-be KDE developer as well, and I just want to hang on the coat tails of rockstars! :)
<nixternal> as you can see, I am a clown :)
<nixternal> who are you Riddell, and what do you do?
<sebsebseb> nixternal: ok well I hope you contribute to KDE3 in Ubuntu then :)  ,because only one guy is making that, and  KDE3 is so nice compared to KDE4
<sebsebseb> nixternal: KDE3 in  Ubuntu can do with some more developers
<ScottK> sebsebseb: Please not in this channel.
<sebsebseb> ScottK: oh ok
<Riddell> hi nixternal, I'm Jonathan Riddell, one of the original Kubuntu developers
<nixternal> sebsebseb: I^Wwe will talk about that maybe now that you brought it up :)
<nixternal> Riddell: that is cool, but if you aren't the original one, then who was?
<sebsebseb> nixternal: ok :)
 * nixternal don't think many people know that to be honest
<Riddell> I work for Canonical and spend most of my days packaging, fixing bugs, testing CDs and generally making sure Kubuntu happens
<Riddell> nixternal: amu and chris halls (haggai) were also there at the start.  amu did the Gnoppix live CD back then and haggai works for a support company that likes to help and use KDE
<nixternal> groovy, shall we answer some questions now?
<Riddell> let's
<^arky^> hi I am arky , I work with braille without borders in India
<nixternal> OK, do we have a question pasting ninja, or do I have to hit ctrl+n, highlight, ctrl+p, paste?
<jcastro> nixternal: it's all you. :D
<nixternal> dangit!
 * nixternal taks off the lazy outfit
<nixternal> [ boredandb] QUESTION: nixternal: when will we see that tape of you and jcastro in the hotel room? You know...
<nixternal> d'oh! I thought that was a real question
<nixternal> dang you boredandblogging!
<jcastro> <ScorpKing> QUESTION: what is the difference between the networkmanager used in ubuntu and the one used in kubuntu? support for 3G modems are not the same for example. will the same functionality be implemented in kubuntu soon?
<Riddell> never stay in a hotel room with jcastro, you'll end up with a killer cold
<nixternal> Riddell: or a very damaging picture
<Riddell> ScorpKing: it's the same backend
<Riddell> but for reasons I havn't worked out, network manager is hideously complex to make a frontend for
<Riddell> and the KDE 4 frontend  is not in great shape
<Riddell> it mostly works for most people but often it doesn't
<Riddell> it's the most notable problem with Kubuntu 9.04
<Riddell> we're testing an update which is in the ~kubuntu-experimental PPA, please give it a shot and report results on bug 339313
<ScorpKing> Riddell: ok thanks. will do
<nixternal> [      homy] QUESTION: except from firefox looking really ugly in kde, in is a great browser, better than konqueror. Why can't you use firefox in kubuntu then? (without it being ugly)
<Riddell> unfortunately there's only a couple of people upstream working on it and they're both very busy w ith other things
<Riddell> nixternal: your turn to answer :)
<chmj> hmm
<chmj> hey Riddell
<nixternal> homy: we are looking at other alternatives for a browser in Karmic...though last time I checked, Firefox wasn't on there
<nixternal> as for the ugliness, I think it is actually looking much better in 9.04 than it has in the past
<nixternal> there was talk about a kubufox, and actually at one point someone was working on it, though I don't know its status just yet
<nixternal> there is^Wwas a project in mozilla for a Qt version of Firefox, but last I checked that wasn't going anywhere either
<Riddell> we're a KDE distro so we only ship KDE or Qt apps (same as Ubuntu Desktop only ships Gnome/GTK apps)
<Riddell> and we don't actually have room on the CD for a whole other set of libraries apart from anything else
<nixternal> I am with you though, I wasn't a Firefox fan until KDE 4 was released and I was pretty much forced to use it over Konqi due to issues...I would like to see Firefox in the list of possible default browsers in Kubuntu, but that is something we will discuss at UDS next month
<Riddell> you're perfectly free to install firefox yourself if that's what you like to use
<nixternal> and then what Riddell just said, as I was going to cover that next :)
<nixternal> next?
<Riddell> 20:08 < mariamne> QUESTION: why should I help Kubuntu?
<nixternal> you skipped one :)
<nixternal> oh maybe you didn't, I might have skipped one
<nixternal> mariamne: the question should be, "why shouldn't I help Kubuntu?" :)
<Riddell> it's the best way to get the bugs which annoy you fixed
<Riddell> for students working with free software is the  best way to learn about developing on computers
<nixternal> there is no reason not to help Kubuntu...the awesome thing about Kubuntu is the community is a part of the great Ubuntu community, however we are a smaller footprint, and to me it seems that it might actually be easier to get involved, and who knows, in a week or so you will be the head ninja!
<Riddell> Kubuntu has the best community ever, I love them all
<nixternal> ditto
<Riddell> and it's the easiest way to change the world, international freedom fighting has never been so fun to get into
<nixternal> and lets not forget that by helping Kubuntu, there is a great chance that you end up helping KDE as well, therefor affecting a much larger audience
<nixternal> one little known fact is that by helping Kubuntu, you are immune to the swine flu!
<nixternal> next?
<Riddell> 20:10 < Ireyon> QUESTION: how to change the kde keyboard layout? the system settings don't offer such a feature and the xorg.conf doesn't seem to accept such entries.
<Riddell> I'm pretty certain system settings does let you do that
<nixternal> Ireyon: care to ellaborate a little there?
<nixternal> what are you trying to change that system settings isn't offering?
<nixternal> Ireyon: feel free to answer that one in here if you would like
<Riddell> lets move on in the mean time
<Riddell> 20:11 < genii> QUESTION:  GTK apps like Firefox usually look like hell in KDE. Will we see some tools to make them less horrible like an improved versions of packages like gtk-qt-engine-kde4, or (preferably) QT ports?
<nixternal> right
<Riddell> at Kubuntu we can't be held accountable for the poor quality of GTK
<Riddell> I don't know why GTK insists on shipping ugly themes by default but it's a hassle for us since we seem to get the blame
<nixternal> I do think GTK apps are looking better in Jaunty though, as I use Firefox, Gimp, Gwibber, and others quite a bit
<Riddell> gtk-qt-engine-kde4 is a bit buggy so we replaced it with gtk-qtcurve in jaunty which works well but isn't as slick looking
<Riddell> 20:11 < shadowland> QUESTION: What's the future look like for Exchange support in any KDE mail app?
<nixternal> as for a qt port of something like firefox, there was work on it, but it seems to have become a bit stale
<nixternal> openexchange!!!
<Riddell> I believe the kdepim team is working with the openexchange people on that
<Riddell> kdepim gets funding from the likes  of the german government for stuff like that so I expect it'll come soon
<nixternal> right now there is a project called openexchange which is starting to show its face in projects such as Evolution...right now the KDEPIM team is working very closely with the project in hoping to bring a solid MAPI solution to KDE, though we probably won't see an official release until the 4.4 time frame, as the 4.3 feature freeze is upon us
<Riddell> 20:11 < mervaka> QUESTION: what advantages does QT offer over GTK?
<Riddell> somebody hold me back or I may get opinionated here
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> Qt and GTK are without a doubt 2 of the greatest UI toolkits out there today
<Riddell> Gnome is a fine desktop with lots of good ideas, but GTK I'll happily flame any day
<Riddell> The power and intuitiveness of Qt's APIs is second to none
<Riddell> and it gets better with every release with tonnes of new features
<nixternal> like Riddell said, we might be opinionated a bit, but I will try to refrain from that....Honestly I think a big advantage with Qt is how easy it is to create a cross platform application, and KDE 4 is proving that...as it isn't only available for Linux/UNIX anymore, as it is also available for Windows and Mac, though not the desktop, just the applications right now
<Riddell> it's graphics power is especially good, that's why stuff like Plasma is so blingy
<nixternal> companies like Adobe, the people who create Nero, and even NASA seem to feel the same way, as they have chose to utilize Qt in some of their applications
<Riddell> I've ported quite a few apps from gtk to qt/kde and the code just gets simpler and easier to read when you do it
<nixternal> now if we can only open up their source :)
<Riddell> ah well, as it happens Qt Software are in the process of doing exactly that
<nixternal> Riddell: I love the way you just took my bait with that :)
<mervaka> but isn't GTK cross platform too?
<nixternal> yes it is
<nixternal> now how easy it is to create a single app that is as easy to do with Qt and have it build and install on a Windows or Mac desktop, that I don't know
<Riddell> they've changed to git and are doing the legal foo to be able to publish all their branches and let other people contribute directly on  in  branches
<nixternal> LGPL FOR THE WIN!!! :)
<Riddell> 20:13 < ScorpKing> QUESTION: will we see support for animated themes in plasma in the near future?
<Riddell> I don't understand that, not sure I want my desktop to have constant animation
<nixternal> I saw a blog post about that recently
<nixternal> I don't know if we will see an entirely animated desktop, though it is possible
<Eveready> possibl;e today, or possibly implemented?
<ScorpKing> a lot of new kde users actually ask that question. what need to be done to implement something like that?
<nixternal> possible to create today, the implemented part I don't know about...something I would have to ask upstream
<Riddell> 20:14 < sebsebseb> Question:  How long will KDE3 be an option in  Ubuntu?  How to get more development help for that one guy that decided to resurcete KDE from the dead in 9.04?   As in it wasn't in the repo in 8.10, because lack of developers.
<nixternal> just asked upstream, if I get an answer I will let you guys know, cool?
<ScorpKing> nixternal: thanks
<Riddell> sebsebseb: KDE 3 is not being developed any more, if we kept including it in ubuntu nothing would change or get better
<mark726> :(
<Riddell> there is a KDE 3 remix which was done by a hard working sole and 8.04 is still supported with KDE 3
<sebsebseb> yep
<nixternal> also, I am sure our single Kubuntu KDE 3 ninja would love your help :)
<Riddell> so if you're not happy with KDE 4 yet go with one of those, and if you want to help him out with the remixes I'm sure he's welcome it
<sebsebseb> nixternal: I would maybe, but I am still really a user :)
<nixternal> sebsebseb: you can always help, no matter your experience level!
<nixternal> join #kubuntu-devel if you are interested..the long KDE sole is currently afk
<nixternal> s/long/lone
<Riddell> but KDE 4 is the future, it's been a painful transition but the platform is the best there is and the few remaining missing features will get shaken out toot sweet
<sebsebseb> nixternal: can't really help with much non code stuff I think, but maybe I am wrong
<Riddell> testing is mostly what's neede
<Riddell> we never have enough CD testers for example
<Riddell> anyone who's installed an OS can do that
<sebsebseb> oh ok :)  yeah I like to  get stuff early and test
<Riddell> 20:15 < awkorama> QUESTION: If I were convinced to use KDE, how would you convince me to use kubuntu?
<dwidmann_> Riddell: need some sort of mailing list or RSS feed for that ... something to remind people to go test ISOs
<JontheEchidna> if you subscribe to Riddell's blog, he usually says when things need testing
<JontheEchidna> and I'm guessing his blog probably has an RSS feed
<nixternal> awkorama: that is a tough question...the great thing about the free software world is your choice, and i respect that fact that you choose kde, gnome, xfce, or any others
<Riddell> awkorama: Kubuntu has all the great advantages of any Ubuntu distro, a speedy release schedule, simple one CD install, fine selection of applications by default
<Riddell> we also have KDE packages available on the day of release
<nixternal> as for convincing....hrmm....it is a great system, great community...added to what Riddell just said as well
<Riddell> and for developers and hardcore fans we have trunk snapshots from Project Neon in a Launchpad PPA updated frequently
<Riddell> also we have hot tub parties, no other distro offers that
<Riddell> 20:19 < gregknicholson> QUESTION: Has WebKit been merged back into Konqueror yet? (I vaguely recall hearing somewhere that this was the plan.)
<nixternal> OH NO, NOT THE HOT TUB PARTIES!
<Riddell> nixternal: make sure you pack your swimming trunks for the summit next month
<Riddell> gregknicholson: no, which is a bit of a shame.  there's a webkitkde kpart which you can install to make konqueror use webkit but it's not well integrated
<Riddell> it's making us look at alternatives
<Riddell> the KHTML developers would point  out that KHTML supports things that webkit doesn't
<Riddell> webkit is being used throughout KDE now though, plasma for example is a big user of it
<Riddell> 20:20 < francisco_t> QUESTION: What is the status with buggy drivers, video cards and kde4?
<nixternal> the hardware manufacturers aren't fixing them quick enough?'
<Riddell> francisco_t: jaunty's X drivers aren't great in my anecdotal experience.  the intel one seems to leak memory quite a bit
<Riddell> it might work with UXA, or it might not depending on your luck.  I've read complaints that it breaks Qt apps and that it breaks GTK apps, it's all a bit random
<Riddell> not my area though, moan to the Ubuntu X team :)
<Riddell> 20:21 < dwidmann_> Question: What are the main things on the table for Kubuntu Karmic?
<nixternal> Daviey: hot tub parties!
<nixternal> err, dwidmann_ ^^ :)
<Eveready> lol
<nixternal> dwidmann_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuKarmicSpecs  <- there is the list we are compiling now for Karmic
<Riddell> UDS is next month and we'll get together then and write up those specs in full with what we plan
<nixternal> all of it will be discussed during UDS, and if you can't make it physically, the sessions are typically live online for you to join
<Riddell> or come to Barcelona and say hi
 * nixternal won't be there, but if you want to come to Chicago and say hi, I am game, first round is on you! :)
<Riddell> KDE 4.3 of course, hopefully fixing bugs, getting rid of the last KDE 3 apps, finishing off some of our development stuff like printing and probably starting some more
<Riddell> 20:24 < homy> QUESTION: Instead of helping kubuntu, shouldn't you rather help kde upstream directly, as kubuntu will also directly profit?
<Riddell> as it happens, we do
<nixternal> We do...I think more than half of us on the Kubuntu team are upstream developers
<nixternal> I typically work in the "System Help" area
<nixternal> though I am planning on expanding the areas I work in with KDE in the near future
<Riddell> most of what Kubuntu does is packaging and testing
<Riddell> but there are some areas that KDE developers don't care much about, such as printing (geeks don't print but as a distro we know we have lots of users who do)
<nixternal> also, we tend to help Debian and other distros as well when they need help, because all of the distros can help make KDE better, as well as make each other better
<Riddell> so we develop the printer setup and status tools and those go into KDE
<nixternal> and System Settings
<Riddell> there's user config tool too which has been worked on from the kubuntu side for similar reasons
<Riddell> < T0m4rn0ld> QUESTION: Which KDE and Kubuntu release will make KDE4 really shine? (As in all apps mature and ported and everything polished and websites working)
<nixternal> 4.5! Just kidding...someone in the blogosphere actually wrote that recently and I found it comical....
<nixternal> I think in 4.3 you will see even more polish, but I feel that starting from right now, each release is going to make KDE 4 really shine
<Riddell> I think KDE 4 desktop does really shine now, but some apps are still working on the transition
<Riddell> Amarok 2 is fabulous, but still misses a few important features.   2.1 is looking great though
<nixternal> functionality is being added, stability is getting a great deal of attention, and memory management is also being looked at
<Riddell> KOffice 2 is also starting to get really nice, Krita will soon be a real photoshop killer
<nixternal> yes, Krita is amazing...I turned an eye to it in the past, but man I was really impressed with it
<Riddell> for Kubuntu, I'm saying that 10.04 (probably next LTS) will be a work of perfection
<nixternal> now we just need tutorials out there for it, because I am horrible with graphics unless someone teaches me how to do it, and even then my graphics don't turn out as good as theirs does :)
<nixternal> Kubuntu Leaping Leopard LTS (to many L's, though there are to many K's right now) :p
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<Riddell> I think we're about done
<MagicFab> o/
<dwidmann_> KKK ...  my oh my
<Riddell> if you want to join the party and help with Kubuntu  #kubuntu-devel is the place to go.  if you need some help #kubuntu
<nixternal> THANKS EVERYONE! great questions!
 * Riddell high fives nixternal 
<homy> thanks for the great session!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2000 UTC: Be Your Neighbor's Ubuntu Guru  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> MagicFab: about ready?
<jcastro> ok everyone take a few minute break
<MagicFab> yup
 * nixternal hugs Riddell 
<MagicFab> in ~5 would be perfect :)
 * nixternal hugs MagicFab 
<MagicFab> uh actually 2
<MagicFab> :)
<bruce89> ah
<Led> Hi
<JFo> MagicFab, can I call this the Ubu-guru session for my own personal benefit? :-)
<JFo> whoops, meant to put that in the -chat channel
<JFo> sry
<MagicFab> Sure do
<MagicFab> Hi all
<MagicFab> I'll wait for jcastro 's cue to start
<jcastro> whenever you're ready!
<MagicFab> Hi All, Fabian Rodriguez here. I work at Canonical's Global Support Services center in Montreal, Canada as a senior support analyst and technical trainer for support & server stuff since November 2006. I am mostly interested in free technologies advocacy (including formats, content, licencing) & training for new users, with an emphasis on security.
<Pirate_Hunter> hi new here but what is this irc about?
<MagicFab> More about me: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MagicFab
<sebsebseb> Pirate_Hunter: I think it's about promoting Ubuntu to people
<MagicFab> Glad to see so many people attending Open Week sessions! I've enjoyed them too and I hope I get some very hard questions today :)
<sebsebseb> Pirate_Hunter: to the naigbhours or whoever,  but without them asking for technical suppourt all the time
<MagicFab> This session log will be at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/UbuntuGuru , for now there is a description.
<MagicFab> Joking aside, I am very interested in the cultural notion that "the computer guy" is always sucked into supporting family & friends for free, with high expectations. I want to beat that and help you convince people that they can handle Ubuntu by themselves. Heck, my parents do!
<MagicFab> Another talk very close to this one is Efrain Valle's With a Little Help tomorrow at 15:00 UTC - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/UbuntuHelp . He'll be going into more detail about all the great Ubuntu support & self-help resources.
<MagicFab> Empower your new Ubuntu converts or prospects to become autonomous and be part of the community (or not!) with some technical support power tricks and key, chosen URLs that will help quickly understand Ubuntu and free software.
<Pirate_Hunter> hmmm until my parents learn to use their mobiles fones properly i disagree with that or even the pc
<jcastro> discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please Pirate_Hunter!
<MagicFab> With that in mmind, I'll take quesitons and try to show some of my stuff along the way.
<Pirate_Hunter> sorry
 * MagicFab whips
<MagicFab> :)
<Eveready> thx MagicFab. I am that computer guy.
<sebsebseb> MagicFab:   what's at 15:00?
<MagicFab> Eveready, pfew i thought all had gone missing :)
<MagicFab> When advocating Ubuntu or *any* free software, you'll notice it's much easier to **listen** and answers questions than to **propose** and impose information.
<sebsebseb> Eveready: people around here to locked into Windows,  would be nice if I could convert people out there more,  tried a little in the past, and failed
<MagicFab> <jcastro> MagicFab: QUESTION: Can you give us an idea of the typical problems you guys deal with in support? Like, what are the common ones?
<MagicFab> Well, at commercial support we deal with anything - really. From "I forgot my password" to "Data corruption on RAID" :)
<Eveready> I use windows all the time. Its just that I have to lock it all down. Admin user by default scares me, and is oblivious to most
<MagicFab> jcastro, will you relay / filter questions here or should I ?
<MagicFab> next ?
<MagicFab> <BugeyeD> QUESTION: how do you recommend handling the situation when your new-convert neighbor buys a windows-only printer or whatnot and whines when it cannot be made to work?
<MagicFab> BugeyeD, I first ask what the return policy is :)
<MagicFab> Printers support is easy to check - linuxprinting.org should give all needed info.
<MagicFab> HPs are best in my opinion - if it doesn't work at all, contact the manufacturer - youd' be surprised how many do have linux support!
<JFo> MagicFab, I'll copy paste for you if you like
<MagicFab> JFo, that would help  a lot tx
<JFo> k, np
<JFo> <jussi01> Question: How does canonical deal with Local support - for those who dont speak english?
<MagicFab> Well one of my killer tips is you should NOT rely on Canonical. It doesn't scale. We speak 8 languages in the support center.
<MagicFab> But we can'tpossibliy follow up, escalate bug reports, involve devs, etc.
<MagicFab> Rely *and relay* all you can to local resources. Don't make yourself THE target of unlimited, free, 24/7 support. Set your limits, with helpful phrases like "you know, there is a strong worldwide community of Ubuntu users. We all go by the CoC...". Know you local team website.
<MagicFab> that leads to introducing the Local Community teams. When someone calls us and they speak another language, most of the time they can handle very basic English. Enough to show them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> MagicFab, How would you explain to someone why it would be better to use linux (ubuntu) as the prefered OS instead of windows? this is a question i get all the times and I still ahve not come up with an answer that would convince someone new/computer illiterate
<KickAssClown> Hello
<MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, It's a typical mistake to advertise something as best or better. It depends on everyone. I explain why it's better for me and my wife who is a 1stgrade t4eacher. How I used to be a Windows power user.
<JFo> KickAssClown, please chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<MagicFab> A great site that helps is http://www.getgnulinux.org/
<MagicFab> I dont'say much ! I ask them GO READ THIS - It's in 8 languages, enough for me... I explain I don't like the "anti-Microsoft" tone (really, I dont) - but I ask them to read it and *THEN* come back to me! They feel like I trust them to understand. And to my amazement, they do!
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I would feel a bit uncomfortable even going to my next door naighbours with an Ubuntu CD, that I don't really know that well, or complete strangers on the same street, and then trying to convert them to Ubuntu.   So  how could I even get those people interested, without looking like some geek/weirdo?
<bruce89> JFo: don't
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, then don't ! I used to be that ANNOYING GUY!!!!
<MagicFab> :)
<MagicFab> I said before..
<MagicFab> When advocating Ubuntu or *any* free software, you'll notice it's much easier to **listen** and answers questions than to **propose** and impose information.
<MagicFab> People know I am "working with computers" but when they ask "what do you do for XXXX" or "How do you... XXX" I have a very short answer: "I may not be able to help you. I use mostly free software, I don't use Windows or Mac OS". STOP!!! I don't elaborate.
<MagicFab> So a few people come back and ask more, intrigued. I give them homework.
<bruce89> that's the way I'd approach it
<MagicFab> I make them ask me or *someone else* - here, plug that getgnulinux.org site or your loCo team. Invite them to a *SOCIAL* event, not a technical one.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Naighbours,  how about local schools and such,  could I ever get them interested in say Edubuntu, sucessfully?
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, of course. It's more subtle.
<KickAssClown> I have a simple request. I'm learning W-Grammar, also known as van wijngaarden grammar. I
<MagicFab> I'll start with the famous "in these times... " :)
<jussi01> KickAssClown: chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please :)
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: how it seems in UK,  you got to get  BECTA won over, or whoever is in charge of  the  local education athority and what software schools use.
<MagicFab> So, in local organizations, pass some articles about how X saved $$Y with Ubuntu (or else)
<angelblade> if you have a website , http://www.getgnulinux.org/ have link buttons for spread free software
<MagicFab> always BACK OFF, remember the golden rule: wait for them to ask.
<KickAssClown> I'm looking for an appropriate community to discuss it with. I was hoping someone here might be able to direct me to another source if this classroom is not the place to learn such things.
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: well they woudn't ask, since they don't know I exist, which is also the problem
<MagicFab> Ok, I'll stop the session here if people don't sta in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sirderigo> QUESTION: do you think what helping *too much* a newbie will be good or bad for him?
<jussi01> MagicFab: we can +m it if you need
<jcastro> we can +m if you'd like
<MagicFab> sirderigo, interesting :)
<MagicFab> I'd say BAD
<MagicFab> let people explore, give them tools
<MagicFab> Fo rexample, refer to official documentation - https://help.ubuntu.com/ is a *great*, easy starting point for any new comers to Ubuntu, yet many old hats just don't know about it!! As a support analyst, but also as "the computer guy", I *have* to know what the official docs contain - or else die of shame at the next Ubuntu party :)
<MagicFab> Regarding actual support, you need to let people know a few things that are key so they become AUTONOMOUS:
<MagicFab> the more they learn that they can do things on their own, the less you'll hear about them.
<MagicFab> For exeample
<MagicFab> What distribution / version do they have ? You'd be surprised how many people call Canonical commercial support asking about RedHat ! Show your new Ubuntu converts System > Administration > System Monitor. It's an easy, graphical way to know your Ubuntu version, kernel version, memory, etc.
<MagicFab> sirderigo, so - don't show too much - but also make sure what you show leads to more - without you
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <awkorama> QUESTION: there is still a huge problem with proprietary formats (namely .doc, docx etc.).. i have no power over many of the users of these formats? ubuntu office suites do not import the formats correctly all the time, what is the solution here? (i heard that windows 7 will include virtualized xp, can this be a clue) ?
<MagicFab> awkorama, there's no simple solution. But here, a few tricks:
<MagicFab> - many people use 20 ENTERS instead of proper page breaks - that husrt formatting
<MagicFab> - Fonts are always missing - the msttcorefonts package helps
<MagicFab> etc..
<MagicFab> bottom line - don't deal with it. Be practical and help people understand the problem - not the symptom.
<MagicFab> They wan tto keep saving in .doc ? Fine! Do it. Eventually they'll ask about free formats and then....
<MagicFab> wham! http://www.openformats.org/main
<MagicFab> give them more homework :)
<MagicFab> surely, but slowly - they'll educate themselves. I don't give the moral speech about it anymore.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> MagicFab, what about those people that have some pc knowledge but still believe those linux fab like you have to use commands, no gui etc... I had to handle one of them once showed them ubuntu on my system with gui and they were like yeah but i still would have to learn the commands 0.o???
<MagicFab> JFo, getgnulinux.org has great screenshots.
<MagicFab> That's it! Don't spend TIME on them!!! But don't be arrogant heh :)
<MagicFab> I know, though balance !
<MagicFab> Yes, many people still think it's all CLI land over here.
<MagicFab> next ?
<bruce89> JFo: can't do anything about ignorance
<JFo> <pwnguin> QUESTION: the loco in my community is mostly dead, and geographically sparse. isn't pointing people at a loco without participating in one counterproductive?
<MagicFab> pwnguin, invite them over for coffee. Start small. You know the saying three is company.. :)
<MagicFab> Blog about it, eventually someone else will pick it up.
<MagicFab> It's hard to start from zero, but I've helped many teams do exctly that.
<MagicFab> Worse thing that can happen, you make 1-2 new friends. They tell 2 more.. then next month the meeting is 5 people and so on.
<MagicFab> We had release parties with 4 people in Montreal!!!!
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Helping  people in the local community with  Ubuntu,  that's fun and a nice thing to do, but we live in a society where money is used,  so  I wonder if I could ever  make good money from doing homeuser/consumer  Ubuntu and Windows suppourt, focuessing on the software, since I am not much of a hardware guy.
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, Canonical hired me.
<MagicFab> next ?
<MagicFab> ok, seriously, I think yes :)
<JFo> <jussi01> Question: What resources exist from Canonical with regard to educating Loco's and individuals?
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: why?  and I looked into that, it seems Canocnical want the best.   so like LPI  I would have to do maybe, and some Ubuntu quallification etc
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: plus I thought Canocial mainly did servers
<MagicFab> I used ot be a consultant before joining Canonical. I see many,many opportunities for doing business with Ubuntu. Look up "open source business model" or look me up in #ubuntu-ca :)
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> no more questions just now MagicFab
<ceelight> don't forgt jussi01
<MagicFab> jussi01, regarding individuals, shop.canonical.com has the online Ubuntu Desktop Course for ~U$60 I think.
<Pirate_Hunter> yes there is mine which was not answered i believe?
<MagicFab> and i know there's great activity around education in the community these days. Canonical as a business doesn't focus that much on individuals, however we have 3 people dedicated full time to the communityt (including jcastro who helped organize openweek)
<MagicFab> So I previously mentioned.../
<MagicFab> help your new converts know what Ubuntu version they run. I meant it!
<MagicFab> Related to that...
<MagicFab> What support cycle can you expect? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases - yes, I often forget to tell friends to upgrade before their version reaches EOL!!
<JFo> <pwnguin> QUESTION: you've mentioned locos and canonical support; do you have an opinion of answers.lp.net?
<MagicFab> Keep this in mind.
<MagicFab> Tell your converts to share the version they have in any request for help... for example.. "I use Ubuntu Hardy and... " it's an important detail! This combined with knowing about the official docs... helps a lot
<MagicFab> pwnguin, I love it. I wish it was multilingual! Hopefully LP being open source many people will see value in that _ I know i'll pitch in.
<pwnguin> it's not multilingual?
<MagicFab> I also think Answer is not used to its potential by any stretch!
<MagicFab> pwnguin, the interface is not - and that means it  won't get used by many.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> MagicFab, I do believe the transition of an os to linux (ubuntu) can be very difficult even knowing most linux os nowaday do provide a desktop environment that people can use with most desirable applications I still believe for someone that is new it can still be hard i.e. i just had to install ubuntu-restricted-extra even knowing rythbox is there, most users would expect to just point it to their music folder and it w
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> ould play any format
<MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, interesting. I never install metapackages of non-free stuff. It's not needed. Pick only what you need. When they ask, have your 2 sentence ready on why this happens:
<MagicFab> 1) Manufacturers lack of support
<MagicFab> and/or
<MagicFab> 2) Established "standards" on products/ formats/ software that are patented and as such, not available for free
<MagicFab> I over simplify but yes, be ready.
<MagicFab> THe FSF site may help in understanding some of that
<MagicFab> You may need to tone it down for friends / family though.
<MagicFab> Don't shove things down anyone's throat :) Wait until people notice what you do and answer their questions in a brief, precise way.
<MagicFab>  Stick to the original question! I've found the more I talk, the less people listen to me. The more I listen, the more they trust me.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <ball> QUESTION: If people do this poorly, isn't there a danger of doing more harm than good to the reputation of Ubuntu?
<MagicFab> ball, well, I am trusting all people here will do a great job. I fyou are not 300% sure about something, saying "I don't know" is also in order.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sirderigo> QUESTION: what do you think what non-official activities in a LoCo are good or bad?
<MagicFab> sirderigo, I wouldn't say anything is "bad" or "good" - but, well, if you organize mushroom hunting parties and call them Ubuntu... at least give out CDs or something :)
<MagicFab> generally speaking I wouldn't put myself ina  situation where people or organizations confuse a Loco Team activity with commercial support from Canonical for example.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I wonder how I could find out who uses Ubuntu around here, or would be interested in using it.   I guess I can't really find out easilly since my  LOCO is  dead or pretty much dead, but as far as I know also somewhere I can't just get to, if it is still running.
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, which Loco ?
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: Bristol  and Bath one for England
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, so put up a small flyer, invite a few friends to a local pub. Call it "Ubuntu Bristol" or else.
<sebsebseb> [21:38] <ball> QUESTION: What sebsebseb said
<ball> Is Bath back in Wiltshire now?
<sebsebseb> ball: yeah think so
<MagicFab> Even if only 2 people show up, so be it! In time it will build. You'd be surprised how many people show up.
<ball> sebsebseb: I live in the U.S, but have the same problem: No LoCo
<MagicFab> Of course abuse facebook for that. I have the most ubuntu pimped Facebook account on earth. And no, you can't be my friend.
<MagicFab> :0
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> MagicFab, i understand that but that options means that people will have to stop using there music files and hope either that the manufacturers someday release music in opensource format which will never happen, it doesnt actually solve the problem, this are people that are coming from another os they have their files and would like to use them instead of being told sorry maybe you can use this file instead. what does
<JFo> <Pirate_Hunter> one do in that situation?
<MagicFab> *Disclaimer* I don't know Pirate_Hunter, he or she's just a great Open week participant :)
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: yeah I turned my Myspace into an about me page and software promotion :d  ,but  hardly anyone uses Myspace around here anymore,  so  I basically just like tell people from net to look at it sometimes
<jussi01> sebsebseb: please dont talk here. use #ubuntu-classrom-chat
<sebsebseb> jussi01: I know
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, stick to u-c-c
<MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, no!
<MagicFab> Let them find out. Install mp3 support for now. although MP3 patents will soon expire, isn't it ? Research it on Wikipedia.
<MagicFab> Wikipedia is THE most layman's place to read about tech stuff. An dget precise detailslike dates.
<MagicFab> Pirate_Hunter, KNOW your Ogg Audio -playing devices, there are many.
<MagicFab> Don't insist on free formats. People eventually get it. Point them to http://www.openformats.org/en4
<MagicFab> Remember ? HOMEWORK! People understand this stuff, don't underestimate.
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <akgraner> QUESTION:  When a person realizes that using Ubuntu is not just an OS but a whole community, how do you direct their efforts if they are a non-technical person, so they stay energized and excited about Ubuntu?  What are the top 3 questions to ask to direct them, their are so many directions you can go in, how do you keep it ordered and not overwhelming?
<MagicFab> akgraner, :)
<akgraner> :)
<MagicFab> You don't. They have to do it on their own. You only have to remain *available*. Don't push it.
<MagicFab> HOWEVER!
<MagicFab> If you're talking about bug reports.. well, show them some you have filed (if you have) . If you are talking about docs, show them..
<MagicFab> well... show them how YOU have remained energized etc.!
<MagicFab> 3 questions for them:
<MagicFab> - Do you have the time ?
<MagicFab> - Do you care ?
<MagicFab> - Do you want me to care and dedicate time to you ?
<MagicFab> Of course dress it up accordingly..
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <awkorama> QUESTION: Isn't it kind of strange to expect some help from users? I mean, many people view their computers as tools and most tools require no help from them to function.
<MagicFab> awkorama, you know what, most people don't really need help. They need a couple more tools.
<MagicFab> 1) Documentation
<MagicFab> 2) The assurance that you are available (well, you = the community)
<MagicFab> 3) No "RTFM " or  "You're stupid, you don't get it" attitude
<awkorama> I meant more like.. How to make someone passionate about contributing to community, I don't cotribute to community of my car manufacturer.. whatever
<MagicFab> Strange ? no. I believe humans rely on peer help to the extent they become autonomous. Software / tech stuff it's not different.
<MagicFab> awkorama, you don't "make" someone passionate.
<MagicFab> You know, I worked in several call centers. I had to sell stuff. When someone didn't want it, we had 3 minutes to determine that. Then, we took another call.
<MagicFab> TAKE THE NEXT UBUNTU CONVERT - don't spend precious time convincin someone.
<MagicFab> Eventually people notice something is off - why is everyone paying for antivirus ? Why can't I find a MS Word french dicitonary at 2AM ? Then they remember you.
<MagicFab> <sirederigo> QUESTION: I don't know how to say no!!! How can i say NO I CAN"T HELP in a nice way ?
<MagicFab> sirderigo, great question (in Spanish, so I translated)
<MagicFab> You NEVER say no.
<MagicFab> You say "sure, post it in a public forum".
<MagicFab> Tell anyone that asks for free help you will give them free, unlimited, 24/7 life support.
<MagicFab> First question they ask, ask them pol;itely to post it in your LoCo Team forum, mailing list or IRC. Make sure you ARE there and reply to it, follow up etc. Then they will notice the rest of the community.
<MagicFab> Then, you pray everyone follows th eCode of Conduct and the sheer love is soooo overwhelming they'll "get it" and contribute back.
<MagicFab> You know what ? I had to tell people how to ask for MY free help.
<MagicFab> on my contact poage I have the most ridiculous rules
<MagicFab> "I donât reply to any emails that demand free help, are unreadable or impossible to understand, lack any courtesy, are not signed."
<MagicFab> I also set expectations straight
<MagicFab> "I reply to requests as time permits, mostly within 48 hrs. Emergencies and current customers under contract are prioritized, with a response time usually under 4 hours. "
<MagicFab> not asking everyone to be like that :) but within Ubuntu context, you need to barter.
<MagicFab> "You want my free help ? OK, let's make sure it counts for EVERYONE. As a side effect, let's expose it more".
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <ball> QUESTION: Do we have to get the CBC talking about Ubuntu for civilians to believe it's credible?
<MagicFab> ball, we don't. They will :) In fact they have. ;) Remember, people eventyally notince "something's going on".
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> <pwnguin> QUESTION: ~50 people have rsvp'd for a distro-neutral LUG event within walking distance of my house. what benefits does a loco provide over traditional LUGs? and can they coexist?
<MagicFab> pwnguin, again, none is better or worse. They usually coexist. In fact I had a gentoo guy always on the #ubuntu-co channel - he eventually admitted he was there to "learn how you guys can chat without fighting!".
<MagicFab> Each learn from the other - just don't be pushy and of course ignore non-constructive people - hardest :)
<MagicFab> next ?
<JFo> That looks like the last one MagicFab
<MagicFab> and we have 2 min left I think.
<MagicFab> Ok so one LAST thing!!
<elk80> Will there be a log posted from this session? (sorry to break in!)
<MagicFab> I mentioned before...
<sebsebseb> elk80: yes there will be
<MagicFab> "Tell your converts to share the version they have in any request for help... for example.. "I use ubuntu hardy and... " it's an important detail!
<MagicFab> Why ? well beware of dates! Remember support cycles ? Well, a forum post from january 2007 may not apply to Ubuntu Hardy! Same thing for blogs, bug reports, etc. - keep an eye open for this, it's amazing how much outdated stuff is out there.
<MagicFab> Hopefully with what we discussed today, your new converts and targets  will be tempted to join the community - or get whatever they need when they have to :) It's OK too to *not* be sucked into all of it :D
<MagicFab> Cheers to all and thanks for putting up w/ me.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2100 UTC: Good Practices in Reporting Ubuntu Bugs  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks MagicFab!
<jcastro> mgunes: ready?
<sebsebseb> MagicFab: thanks
 * BUGabundo claps for MagicFab
<MagicFab> special hugs to JFo, for managing Qs
<akgraner> MagicFab, Thanks!
 * elk80 is not happy she missed the session..
 * MagicFab hugs jcastro , all
 * ^arky^ claps 
<JFo> no sweat MagicFab :)
 * sirderigo launch him hat to magicfab 
<Eveready> was a pleasure , MagicFab
<jcastro> ok, we'll give mgunes a minute or two before he begins
<jussi01> jcastro: Ok, Im off to bed now that you are back. nini :)
<jcastro> as always, when the session is on please keep discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> mgunes: about ready?
<jcastro> *crickets*
<Mobuntu> will see you tomorrow MagicFab :-)
 * james_w dresses up as a tumbleweed and rolls past
<jcastro> ok stand by please
<jcastro> ok, quick instructor swap-a-roo, bdmurray will be along shortly and the session will begin
<bdmurray> Hey, sorry about that!
<bdmurray> 'm here to talk to you today about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are various different ways you can do it.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> First we should talk about what exactly qualifies as a bug.
<bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
<bdmurray> Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be spelling errors.
<bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
<mgunes1> hi all, sorry for the delay; I've had a connection failure..
<jcastro> mgunes1: no worries, we were just getting started
<mgunes> bdmurray, do you mind if I go on? ;)
<bdmurray> mgunes: nope go ahead, I just went over what qualifies as a bug
<mgunes> alright
<mgunes> just a short introduction: I'm Murat GÃ¼neÅ; I'm part of the Ubuntu Quality Assurance team, and I'm going to be talking about good bug reporting practices.
<mgunes> My intention is that this talk will cover the basics of what a bug report is, how to help improve Ubuntu and the broader ecosystem of free and open source software by filing a good one, and some useful tools for and good habits in keeping track of the bugs that interest you in one way or another.
<mgunes> Brian probably got you through some of the basics; especially once I've covered some more, feel free to interrupt with questions at any point and make the talk veer off into other topics related to bug reporting and quality assurance in general!
<mgunes> but please keep the questions in the chat channel.
<mgunes> Once you've encountered what can be classified as a "bug", you'll want to report it, so that it can be... fixed.
<mgunes> It's probably a good idea to look at a few sample bug reports to get an idea of the anatomy of an Ubuntu bug report
<mgunes> here's one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/file-roller/+bug/13199
<mgunes> This bug has been encountered in Ubuntu, but also affects what's known as the "upstream project", which is to say, the project that the code making up the software originates from (in this case, Nautilus, the default file manager for Ubuntu)
<mgunes> At the top you see a (not really ideal) description of the behavior. Some way below is a short and itemized description of the problem
<mgunes> On the right, you see "duplicates", the bug reports that have been classified as describing the same underlying problem by bug triagers and developers.
<mgunes> Below is the discussion, and the list of "subscribers", the people who are interested in receiving updates on the report for one reason or another.
<mgunes> When should you report a bug?
<mgunes> A good rule of thumb is to make sure that the problem you're encountering with the software is reproducible.
<mgunes> If it's reproducible across different configurations and/or use cases,  is affecting the task you want to perform with the software negatively, it's most likely a bug.
<mgunes> Let's go on with some basics of how to report a bug in Ubuntu.
<mgunes> You'll see the URL https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug cited in many guides and articles about bug reporting.
<mgunes> Yes, that is the default Launchpad URL that lets you pick a package and file a bug report in it.
<mgunes> However, and that's a big however..
<mgunes> There are other ways of reporting bugs which make the process of evaluating and fixing bugs much easier for developers and bug triagers
<mgunes> With most graphical user-visible software that comes preinstalled with Ubuntu, you'll see a "Report a Problem" menu item on the "Help" menu.
<mgunes> If you click on it, it will run the Apport bug reporting tool, which will collect basic information about the version of Ubuntu you are using, the version of the application that produced the problem, etc. and let you attach this information to the bug report.
<mgunes> There's also the command line utility "ubuntu-bug".
<mgunes> To file a bug in, say, Firefox in Ubuntu, all you have to do is type "ubuntu-bug firefox" in a terminal, and the same information will be collected.
<mgunes> I'll stop here to take a look at some questions if any.
<mgunes> sebsebseb: QUESTION:  let's take for example  Asterisk  the one from Ubuntu repo didn't just work it seems,   was it just buggy?   How would I even know, what a bug is?
<sebsebseb> mgunes: that was 8.10, but I assume it will be like that in 9.04 to,  anyway that's pretty much irelivant
<mgunes> sebsebseb: if you're not sure whether something is a bug, you may want to file a support request first (at the answer tracker or forums) and maybe perform some debugging (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures).
<sebsebseb> mgunes: ah ok
<mgunes> sebsebseb: if the problem seems to persist, and multiple people whom you've asked for support can reproduce it, it's likely, but NOT necessarily, a bug.
<mgunes> sebsebseb: you can also ask for assistance on bug reporting at the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel and Ubuntu Bug Squad mailing list.
<mgunes> sheena1: QUESTION: Do you report a bug that already has a bug report? How do you decide?
<mgunes> sheena1: If there's a bug report about the problem already, do not file another. Instead, if you're sure that the bug report is about the same problem, try to improve the existing report.
<sheena1> mgunes: How can I find out more about how to do that?
<mgunes> You can add new debugging information (see the debugging procedures link above), improve the title and description, add information about the way the bug manifests itself on *your* configuration, etc.
<mgunes> All of these improve the report and possibly make it more likely to be fixed.
<mgunes> sheena1: Here are some good links: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/BestPractices
<mgunes> again, if in doubt, always ask us!
<sheena1> mgunes: Thank you! :)
<mgunes> You're welcome.
<mgunes> On with some basic info on reporting crashes..
<mgunes> If you're using a development branch of Ubuntu, you'll have the Apport bug reporting assistance tool enabled by default.
<mgunes> It will let you deal with crash bug reporting in an automatic fashion.
<mgunes> You can also manually report crashes that have produced ".crash" files in your /var/crash directory by typing "ubuntu-bug /var/crash/nameoffile.crash
<mgunes> ,"
<mgunes> Again, Apport will take care of things.
<mgunes> What if you've reported a bug, but forgot / neglected to use ubuntu-bug or "Report a Problem"?
<mgunes> apport-retrace comes to the rescue.
<mgunes> Correction: apport-collect comes to the rescue :)
<mgunes> Simply type "apport-collect #123456" (the number of the bug report) and Apport will work its magic to collect the required information and attach it to the bug report.
<mgunes> Any questions on the use of these tools?
<mgunes> Let's go on with some "do"s and "don't"s in bug reporting.
<mgunes> Make sure that your bug title is descriptive.
<bdmurray> Without the "#" for appor-collect.
<BUGabundo> mgunes: typo: s/apport-collect #12345/apport-collect 12345
<mgunes> bdmurray, BUGabundo, thanks!
<mgunes> "Weird problem with Firefox" is a bad title. "firefox prints only visible portion of image" is a good one.
<mgunes> Follow up with your bug reports and try to improve them.
<mgunes> If at first the problem was vague, but later you came up with more details, make sure those are posted.
<mgunes> You can edit the description directly instead of adding comments.
<mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures has links to many pages with information on how you can help developers come closer to pinpointing the underlying problems that cause the unwanted behavior.
<mgunes> Use those procedures to improve your report, and when in doubt, do not hesitate to ask for help in #ubuntu-bugs or the Bug Squad mailing list.
<mgunes> Use itemizing to list the steps for reproducing the issue.
<mgunes> In your description, list each step you take to make the problem appear. This will help your description stay focused and concise.
<mgunes> I want to reserve some time to other topics, so I'll refer you to a valuable blog post by MagicFab that better elaborates this: http://www.fabianrodriguez.com/blog/2008/01/18/the-bug-reporting-culture-10-things-to-avoid-10-things-you-must-do/
<mgunes> Not to forget Bryce Harrington's http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/drupal/node/35 .
<mgunes> Any questons?
<mgunes> akgraner: QUESTION:  I Tried to use apport and I always get closed because I have outdated apps, how can that be if I update everything every the notifier tells me I have updates?
<mgunes> akgraner: If I understand you correctly, you may be using an outdated mirror.
<mgunes> akgraner: make sure that you use one that's up to date with the latest state of the development branch.
<mgunes> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors may help.
<mgunes> unutbu: QUESTION: on Ubuntuforums there are some reports of Jaunty installs that fail at "formatting 5%". How should we determine if this is a bug, and if so, how should we most effectively report it? See for example http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7119628 and http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1142470 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/99908
<mgunes> unutbu: on top of the info in the links I've posted above (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs being the starting point), you may want to join #ubuntu-bugs to get help from the ubuntu bug squad, or  get in touch with the developers of the software directly (in the case of Ubiquity, you may want to join #ubuntu-installer and kindly ask the developers there).
<mgunes> BUGabundo: QUESTION: is using the apport descrition or any other crash, as the bug descrition good or bad?
 * BUGabundo listens
<mgunes> BUGabundo: you may want to use a more descriptive title, but using the Apport provided one is just fine.
<mgunes>  jegomez: mgnunes: QUESTION: Any best-practice thoughts on "bumping" a bug report? or we just shouldn't do it?
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<mgunes> jegomez: you should refrain from adding "me too" comments (there's a button for that now), and in general, comments that don't add any new information to the report. But gently nudging people infrequently, preferably with new information regarding the issue, should be fine.
<mgunes> unutbu: QUESTION: Sometimes a bug report is marked as "Incomplete". Where should the bug poster look to find what information needs to be supplied to make the bug report complete?
<mgunes> unutbu: the triager or developer who set the bug status as "Incomplete" will almost always refer to the place to look.
<mgunes> unutbu: if they haven't, do not hesitate to ask them to! it's part of their job.
<mgunes> unutbu: but again, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/BestPractices and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures should help.
<mgunes> We're almost out of time. I can probably answer a couple more questions if you have any.
<mgunes> For the basics of using ubuntu-bug, see http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/03/31/please-dont-report-ubuntu-bugs-directly-to-launchpad/
<jcastro> ok time!
<jcastro> thanks murat!
<jcastro> nhandler: you're next!
<mgunes> Thanks everyone.
<nhandler> Hello everyone. My name is Nathan Handler. Today we will be learning about how to stay up-to-date with what is going on in the Ubuntu community.
<nhandler> This session will only briefly explain the various methods of staying up-to-date. If you have a question, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Be sure to preface it with 'QUESTION: '
<nhandler> I have some content prepared that I will be discussing. However, I have left plenty of time to discuss additional topics. If there is something that you want to learn more about, please let me know in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2200 UTC: Staying up to date in the community  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nhandler> One of the key ways that different people in the community communicate with each other is through the mailing lists.
<nhandler> Some of these mailing lists can be found at https://lists.ubuntu.com/. However, now that Launchpad supports mailing lists, some teams are choosing to use that instead.
<nhandler> I would suggest that you start by subscribing to all of the -announce mailing lists on lists.ubuntu.com. These lists are usually low volume, but they provide very important announcements about their relevant topics.
<nhandler> QUESTION is there any chance that we'll see new interface for mailing lists on LP?
<nhandler> I haven't heard about any changes to the mailing lists that will be taking place in the next few weeks. However, Launchpad is under constant development. Changes get made all of the time. I also know that there are several issues that need to be sorted out. You can ask the people in #launchpad to get a better estimate about when these changes will be made
<nhandler> QUESTION How can devel branch testers keep up with most upstream changes, and even ubuntu internal, to packages, and features, and even policy? and please don't send me read .changelogs... not as easy to read!
<nhandler> Most of the tools that I am going to be discussing can be used to keep up with the changes that are being made. These changes are all public. Most developers also send out messages to various sources prior to making the changes. If you wait a little bit, I think by the end of the session, you will have an answer to this question
<nhandler> Continuing with the session...
<nhandler> If you subscribe to ubuntu-announce, you will be notified whenever a new version of Ubuntu is released.
<nhandler> Besides the -announce mailing lists, I would also suggest that you subscribe to ubuntu-news.
<nhandler> The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (https://wiki.ubuntu.comUbuntuWeeklyNewsletter) is sent out each week to this mailing list.
<nhandler> These lists should help keep you up-to-date with the big events that happen in the community. However, they are not enough if you are an active contributor.
<nhandler> As a contributor, you are most likely part of one or more teams. Most of these teams will have their own mailing lists that you will want to subscribe to.
<nhandler> For example, I am a MOTU. So I subscribe to ubuntu-motu, ubuntu-devel, and motu-council (among many others).
<nhandler> If you are unable to find your team's mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com, it might be on Launchpad. You can contact another member of that team to verify where the mailing list is located.
<nhandler> If you are part of a LoCo, you will want to subscribe to your Loco's mailing list.
<nhandler> I am located in Chicago, so I subscribe to ubuntu-us-chicago.
<nhandler> QUESTION: why not also subscrubite to -devel-discuss
<nhandler> -devel-discuss does contain good discussions and information about changes. However, it will cause you to receive a lot of mail. Since it is for active discussions, you really need to read a lot of the messages to get a good idea about what is going on
<nhandler> I prefer some of the other lists, which are used to send out emails once a decision on -devel-discuss is reached
<nhandler> Once you start subscribing to lots of lists, you will notice a significant increase in the amount of mail in your inbox. Most of these messages will not interest you.
<nhandler> I would suggest reading up on how to create filters in your email client. They can help keep the unimportant messages out of your inbox, so you do not need to worry about them.
<nhandler> http://blog.launchpad.net/bug-tracking/gmail-filters-for-launchpad-bug-email talks about creating filters in gmail for bugmail from Launchpad.
<nhandler> That about covers the mailing lists, any questions?
<nhandler> The next area we will discuss is IRC. IRC allows teams to carry out live meetings and discussions without the delay that mailing lists cause.
<nhandler> For instance, we have #ubuntu-meeting and #ubuntu-classroom, which are used for team meetings and educational classroom sessions respectively.
<nhandler> Just like with mailing lists, most teams and LoCos have their own IRC channels.
<nhandler> I would suggest that you read up about how to make your IRC client automatically join certain channels on start-up. That way, you won't need to remember which channels you need to join.
<nhandler> Once you start joining lots of IRC channels, it will become impossible to read every message that is sent. You will want to configure your IRC client to display a notification whenever someone says your name.
<nhandler> This will allow you to quickly respond to questions or comments that people might be directing at you.
<nhandler> If you miss a meeting that takes place in #ubuntu-meeting, or a classroom session in #ubuntu-classroom, those channels, along with many others, are logged. These logs are publicly available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<nhandler> That concludes the section about IRC, any questions?
<nhandler> QUESTION: how do I cope with #ubuntu?
<LjL> ? :)
<nhandler> There is an #ubuntu-meta channel that you can use. That channel displays questions that are asked in #ubuntu and other channels
<nhandler> Now we will talk about blogs.
<nhandler> A key blog to follow is the Fridge (http://fridge.ubuntu.com/). That is where all important notices concerning Ubuntu will be posted. It is also where a calendar of all Ubuntu meetings (http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar) is kept.
<nhandler> One of the privileges gained from becoming an Ubuntu Member (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership) is that you get to have your blog listed on Planet Ubuntu (http://planet.ubuntu.com/)
<nhandler> Most developers and team leaders are Ubuntu members. As a result, they use Planet Ubuntu as a way to send news and announcements to the community.
<nhandler> For users who are not Ubuntu members yet, there is Ubuntu Weblogs (http://ubuntuweblogs.org/), which serves a similar purpose as Planet Ubuntu.
<nhandler> It would not be practical to visit all of these blogs everyday to check for updates. There are many reader applications that you can use instead.
<nhandler> These reader applications will give you access to all of your favorite blogs from one place. They will also tell you when a new article has been posted.
<nhandler> Any questions about blogs?
<nhandler> Since you seem to be interested in UWN, I think it might be worth mentioning that a Developer News wiki page was created: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/News
<nhandler> The idea was to send out a newsletter every few weeks explaining what changes have been made that affect developers
<nhandler> QUESTION: How on-topic or off-topic are blogs on planet supposed to be?
<elk80> QUESTION: and dealing with the 'noise' that so many blogs, feeds, etc. brings...
<nhandler> In theory, they should be at least *loosely* related to Ubuntu. However, this has never really been enforced
<nhandler> elk80: Please ask in -chat, but I personally skim my reader application. I only read the articles that catch my attention
<elk80> k
<nhandler> I will now be discussing the forums.
<nhandler> The Ubuntu community has an excellent forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/). This forum is filled with thousands of users. As a result, it is an excellent place to look at if you are interested in seeing how well the latest development release is working for people, or what the best way to accomplish foo is.
<nhandler> The Karmic forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=359) will be the place to check for the results from tests of Karmic Koala.
<nhandler> You can also subscribe to threads/boards on the forum to be notified via email whenever someone replies.
<nhandler> Friday, bodhi-zazen will end Open Week with a session about the forums. If you are interested in them, I strongly urge you to attend his session
<nhandler> In the mean time, does anyone have any questions about the Ubuntu Forums?
<nhandler> QUESTION: can i reply by email?
<nhandler> No, you can not reply to a forum post via email
<nhandler> However, you can do that with bugs on Launchpad
<nhandler> QUESTION: With all the mails, and blogs and your normal work, how important are the forums really for you (personally). Do you grap ideas, problems whatever and use it? Is it a real "source of inspiration" for the developers?
<nhandler> I personally try to stop by the forums at least every other week to answer posts about development for Ubuntu and/or the devel release. I would love to be able to spend more time there, but there are only so many hours in the day.
<nhandler> In terms of using it as an inspiration, I really haven't done much application creation (which is what a lot of posts are about). So I don't really take much inspiration from there
<nhandler> However, I do use it as a way to see what things need to be worked on
<nhandler> The next topic for this session is the wiki.
<nhandler> Many teams use the wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/) for organizational purposes. They might list meeting agendas, upcoming events, or keep track of current activities on the wiki.
<nhandler> By going to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserPreferences?action=userprefs, you are able to view and modify your subscriptions.
<nhandler> You can subscribe to an individual page, such as 'UbuntuOpenWeek', or a group of pages, such as 'ChicagoTeam/.*'. That will subscribe me to all wiki pages related to the Chicago Team.
<nhandler> I personally am subscribed to most of the wiki. I subscribe to most meeting agendas, meeting logs, team pages, development pages, and many other pages.
<nhandler> By subscribing to all of these pages, I get notified via email about new topics that will be discussed at meetings, who is interested in joining various teams, what freezes are currently in affect for development.
<nhandler> Any questions about the wiki?
<nhandler> The last thing I want to discuss today are Microblogs.
<nhandler> Microblogs such as identi.ca and Twitter are beginning to gain popularity in the Ubuntu community.
<nhandler> QUESTION: How do you subscribe to a group of pages like say Karmic/.* ?
<nhandler> You need to subscribe based on the page names
<nhandler> For instance, we keep all of our Ubuntu Development related stuff under UbuntuDevelopment
<nhandler> We have UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages and UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<nhandler> So I can add UbuntuDevelopment/.* to subscribe to all of these
<nhandler> QUESTION: where can I get a list of interesting Blueprints to track for each devel cycle?
<nhandler> I would suggest subscribing to the blueprints developed at/for UDS
<nhandler> Those are the ones that are going to be (or attempted to be) implemented
<BUGabundo> nhandler: and where is that list?
<nhandler> BUGabundo: UDS hasn't taken place yet. And since LP is offline, I can't get you the URL for blueprints that will be discussed there
<nhandler> I can get you a link later though
<BUGabundo> thanks
<nhandler> Back to discussing Microblogs... Many people use these microblogs as a quick way to post updates about their current activities.
<nhandler> There are also groups on these sites that correspond with many of the teams in the Ubuntu communtiy. These groups are used to quickly send out notices to all interested people.
<jcastro> (UDS blueprints are here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-karmic)
<nhandler> Thanks for the link jcastro. I didn't have it bookmarked ;)
<nhandler> On the microblogging sites, there are groups that correspond with many of the teams in the Ubuntu communtiy. These groups are used to quickly send out notices to all interested people.
<nhandler> Finally, there are also some special accounts. For instance, during UDS Jaunty, they had accounts for each of the different sections that were used to post updates about what was happening.
<nhandler> One of those accounts, @udscommunity, is actually sending out messages every hour during Open Week, announcing what session is about to begin.
<nhandler> QUESTION: Is there a place to find all those accounts during UDS? They are very hard to find when you are not there.
<nhandler> During Jaunty, we had an identi.ca account for all of the tracks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunt/Report
<nhandler> I can pull up a list of all of the accounts after the session is over
<nhandler> Besides the UDS accounts, there are also accounts that post security notices (@usn), ideas from brainstorm (@brainstormnews), Ubuntu news (@ubuntunews), new posts on Planet Ubuntu (@planetubuntu), and much, much, more.
<nhandler> QUESTION: the fridge hosts a calendar. is there any way to get events into evolution?
<nhandler> At the bottom of http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar, there is an ical link that you can use in evolution
<nhandler> Any questions about Microblogs?
<nhandler> That about wraps up all that I wanted to talk about today. Are there any more questions?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2300 UTC: Ubuntu Women  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nhandler> QUESTION: how much time / day do you spend "catching up"?
<nhandler> I am not the most efficient person at "catching up". I enjoy reading the emails and blog posts. I never really kept track of the time, but I would estimate 1-2 hours a day
<nhandler> pwnguin wanted me to remind everyone that Ubuntu Members can also get a free LWN subscription
<nhandler> Ok, thanks everyone for your participation
 * Bodsda claps
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-30
<nhandler> Next up is pleia2 who will talk about Ubuntu Women
 * ^arky^ thanks nhandler 
<pleia2> Hi everyone :)
<pleia2> Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on the Ubuntu Women Project!
<pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach. I currently work as a Debian and Ubuntu Systems Administrator for a Philadelphia-based Linux-centric technology services provider. I became involved in the Ubuntu Women project as soon as I found out about it in the spring of 2006.
<pleia2> Aside from Ubuntu Women work, I'm currently heavily involved with the LoCo Teams projects, specifically with my own state of Pennsylvania and the greater work of the US Teams Mentoring program. I also work on the Ubuntu Classroom project, which has recently started working the the Ubuntu Community Learning Project. On the technical side within the community I contribute upstream as a Debian Package Maintainer.
<pleia2> In this session I'm going to give a general introduction to the project, explain why we feel such a project is important, give you details about our project resources, provide tips on what people can do to combat disrespectful behavior within the community, and I'll wrap things up with a Q&A session.
<pleia2> I'll also pause to ask for questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat at regular intervals, please prefix your questions with QUESTION: so they're easy for us to find :)
<pleia2> To begin, the official website for the Ubuntu Women project is http://ubuntu-women.org. From there you can get to all our other resources, including our Mailing list, Forums, Launchpad and Wiki.
<pleia2> The project was loosely founded on the forums and in IRC in the summer of 2005. It was extended by Vidya Ayer to mailing lists and a website, and became an official team in early 2006.
<pleia2> Intitally it was modeled closely after the Debian Women (http://women.debian.org) project, but since their focus was primarily getting women to become Developers it quickly became apparent that the Ubuntu Women approach would have to have a much broader focus, encouraging women to be a part of every facet of Ubuntu.
<pleia2> Before I get into the details of the project, I want to emphasise that we have a very serious committment to not being separatist or exclusive.
<pleia2> If you join our IRC channel, mailing list or forums you'll find both men and women involved in the project. We have no gender requirement placed upon our members, anyone who is interested in getting more women involved is welcome to join us.
<pleia2> Now, while we do provide a separate place for discussion, the main goal of the project is to get more women involved with the general Ubuntu community. Separatism would defeat this goal.
<pleia2> Ultimately the "#1 Bug" in the Ubuntu Women Project is the need for the project to exist at all! We would like to be able to dissolve the project in the future when more women are comfortable getting involved.
<pleia2> Now for the specifics. The project has grown to primarily focus upon:
<pleia2> 1. Support and Encouragement
<Stustoph> .
<pleia2> This is probably the most vital function of the project today. As much as we wish it wasn't the case, there is still sexism within the Ubuntu community. Sometimes it's the quite mild addressing of a group of Ubuntu people as "gentlemen" and sometimes it's brutal public "jokes" targeted at women that men and women alike may find offensive.
<pleia2> Whatever the situation, it's helpful to have a place to discuss things and ask questions. Do the actions <here> bother anyone else? Is this <unfortunate event> worth reporting to the project leadership? Should I approach <person> about their actions that made me uncomfortable? Talking things out with folks who can sympathize and share your experiences goes a long way to keeping people involved with a project when events occur that are troubling
<pleia2> The Ubuntu Women outlets (IRC, mailing lists, forums) are also a great place to discuss current events relating to Women within general F/OSS, sharing success stories from other projects and using those examples to work toward improving the community for everyone.
<pleia2> 2. Mentoring and Direction
<pleia2> Due to the low percentage of women involved in F/OSS in general, Ubuntu is often the first project they get involved with. The first question that we get on the mailing list or on IRC from women new to the project is generally "How can I help Ubuntu?" which we answer and attempt to match them up with projects and contacts (possibly mentors) within the projects to get them going.
<pleia2> Don't men encounter this too? Absolutely, and we certainly wouldn't turn away a man asking the same question, but we've chosen to make our focus getting more women involved and offering level-entry support is part of that.
<pleia2> Two of the resources we most frequently point to are: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu both of which are linked on our Get Involved page: http://ubuntu-women.org/getinv.html
<pleia2> 3. Highlight active women within the community
<pleia2> Most people who are heavily involved with F/OSS have a number of people they look up to. For a lot of people it's helpful to have someone they can relate to, perhaps of their own gender. I know in my case joining LinuxChix and finally getting to see women in prominent places within the community not only helped me strive to follow in their footsteps, it made me feel less alone as a woman involved in the projects.
<pleia2> To highlight women in the community we have recently launched an Interview series ( http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Interviews ) which has been appearing in Full Circle Magazine ( http://fullcirclemagazine.org/ )
<pleia2> We also have a profiles page on our wiki showing who some other women involved are, where they are located and what they are involved with: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Profiles
<pleia2> In addition, we work to post news on the mailing list when women within the community make the news, are involved in exciting projects or any other inspiring stories.
<pleia2> One more point and I'll get to the questions raised already before moving on :)
<pleia2> 4. Education on Sexism and Feminism
<pleia2> Perhaps unintentional, our project has become a popular place for discussions of general feminism (equality) and sexism. We frequently have men and women joining our channel to learn about the issues, so much so that we've created a wiki page full of links relating to the issues: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/ChallengingSexism
<pleia2> This has turned out to be a valuable job of our project. Most people aren't intentionally sexist and a lot of the people who join our forums, mailing list or IRC channel with questions about why the project exist genuinely wish to understand why so many successful women within the Ubuntu project choose to spend time on Ubuntu Women.
<pleia2> A lot of folks joining also want to know what they can do to help, which I'll get to momentarily.
<pleia2> Ok, I'm going to move on to why we believe the project is important and ways that you can help attract more women to your project(s), but first - questions?
<maco> ok just a sec...
<maco> <pwnguin> QUESTION: how do you measure when more women are comfortable getting involved?
<pleia2> Good question. We don't have a statistic or quantitative goal at this point because be ratio is still so poor.
<jhass840> maco: I think the questions are being asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<maco> jhass840: i'm the paster
<maco> <elk80> QUESTION: What is the ratio of social to technical discussion as a whole? And is the social aspect of it welcome? :)
<pleia2> I think even hitting a goal of 10% involvement would be huge - already I'm seeing as more women become involved, more join
<pleia2> elk80: the FLOSSPOL report is frequently referenced to answer this question: http://www.flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integrated_Report_of_Findings.pdf
<pleia2> it indicates that about 1.5% of FLOSS community members were female, compared with 28% in proprietary software
<pleia2> oh, I misread
<pleia2> hehe
<maco> (sorry, i jumped the gun on that question)
<pleia2> sorry! right, perhaps clarify the question, do we mean technical vs social within the project?
<elk80> You mentioned dissolving the project when deemed complete..
<elk80> If/when that should occur, will the project or some deriv. continue as a social hub?
<pleia2> gotcha, I think it might, but perhaps not as an official Ubuntu project any longer
 * elk80 nods :)
<maco> pleia2: ready for the next one?
<pleia2> maco: fire away! :)
<maco> <LaserJock> QUESTION: so would you consider Ubuntu Women more marketing to women, advocating on behalf of women to Ubuntu, or refereeing to make sure there is a level playing field?
<LaserJock> or all-of-the-above ;-)
<pleia2> good question!
<pleia2> I think ultimately it's all about Ubuntu itself, we want as many contributors as possible and for us that means tapping into that 50% of the population that often feels left out of FOSS
<hypa7ia> we can't solve bug #1 without women, after all :)
<pleia2> we also do some refereeing, there are women who come to us when they have problems and we'll step up and help out
<pleia2> next?
<lamalex> that's not what structural means
<maco> h/o
<maco> <txwikinger> Question: Aren't the same issues exist also for visible minorities? Also, how much does the anonymity through screen names make a difference?
<maco> lamalex: wrong chan
<lamalex> maco: my scroll key keeps messing up, i didnt even realize i posted that
<lamalex> sorry!
<pleia2> I believe there may be problems for other minorities, but I'm not familiar with them, since I'm familiar with the problems facing women I work on this project :)
<maco> next?
<pleia2> anonymity through a screen name certainly helps some people (there are women I encounter in the community who still won't say in public that they are female)
<pleia2> but I don't know really, I've always been very open about my gender
<pleia2> next!
<maco> <LaserJock> QUESTION: can you give an estimate on how many "incidents" there are in Ubuntu?
<pleia2> Not really, it depends on a lot of factors - how public the incident is, whether it was reported to anyone or just made someone walk away immediately
<pleia2> I will say that things have improved over the past couple years, and Ubuntu is, in general, a really fantastic project to work on when compared to some others
<pleia2> next?
<maco> that's it
<pleia2> ah yes, I was just reminded of something recently
<maco> oh hold on
<maco> one more
<pleia2> on the day we were all working to improve the LoCo docs, we came across one that aside from calling every potential person you'd try to get to try Ubuntu "him"
<pleia2> there was a suggestion of using "booth babes"
<pleia2> this was on the Ubuntu wiki, included in guidelines for conferences
<pleia2> hooray for wikis, we were able to clean this all up :) but it felt quite unfortunate that someone had thought through enough to actually put it up there in the first place
<pleia2> ok, questions
<maco> don't forget what else it said
<pleia2> oh right
<pleia2> it also said that if a woman comes to your booth "dont talk about tech. talk about nelson mandela and sharing"
<maco> ok questions... lemme grab
<maco> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:   Maybe to help with market share for non technical people, if the  circle of friends was used more for example,  it  would attract more females to Ubuntu?
<pleia2> I think more use such a thing would attact more PEOPLE in general, not specifically women, there is still a huge theory out there that you have to be a "programmer" to contribute anything
<pleia2> next?
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<maco> <txwikinger> QUESTION: Are women detered in participating in FLOSS mainly due to discrimination or are there other "hidden" structures to blame that give women less incentives to join?
<pleia2> There is a lot of research on why that low 28% in proprietary software exists that links it to social things, girls not being encouraged in tech things as much as boys, so females learning about the awesomeness of tech stuff later
<pleia2> so you have a smaller pool starting out, often (this isn't true of the entire world, luckily)
<pleia2> so you start with a smaller pool, and then they join and run into discrimination
<pleia2> I don't know really how many just walk away at this point, but I do know several women who have changed careers entirely and dropped foss involvement because of discrimination
<pleia2> next?
<maco> <jhass840> QUESTION: Do you think that anonymity through screen names can also serve as a detriment to the project?
<hypa7ia> that one i can answer with a link
<hypa7ia> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
<pleia2> yes :( but I sympathize with their reasons, not everyone wants to "help the cause" - some people would like to spend all their time getting work done
<pleia2> "work done" that is not encouraging other women, I mean
<pleia2> specifically project work
<pleia2> next?
<maco> <nixternal> QUESTION: you know something...I have been in this goofy free software world now since about 1993/1994...and it wasn't until Ubuntu that I really saw a problem and witnessed on more than one occasion an issue, do you think that is because Ubuntu has become so huge that we are seeing the issues and that there is a need for the Ubuntu Women team?
<pleia2> interesting
<pleia2> I've encountered bad behavior from the first weeks I stepped into the Linux world back in 2002
<pleia2> by 2003 I was working to create a local LinuxChix chapter in Philadelphia
<pleia2> so maybe it's a matter of perspective, to me LinuxChix has always been vital because things have always been tough
<pleia2> I got involved Ubuntu Women once I was already pretty secure :)
<pleia2> and Debian Women existed prior, perhaps because of projects like Ubuntu getting such attention more people care about broadening involvement?
<pleia2> next?
<maco> <dtchen> QUESTION: has the community manager been appraised of UDS participation for active contributors in #ubuntu-women?
<pleia2> I'm not sure, I don't think so
<pleia2> I think we want to pause the questions for a few moments so I can finish up my script :)
<pleia2> we'll get to as many as we can after
<pleia2> So why do we feel this project is important? We've covered this some already.
<pleia2> Simply put, those of us who are involved with Ubuntu Women believe that everyone can be a valuable resource for the Ubuntu project and we should work to be inclusive and encouraging. We've chosen to focus upon becoming well-versed in the issues currently facing women specifically in the community so we can shape our program to cater to them.
<pleia2> We understand that not everyone shares in these viewpoints, methods or goals, which is really a great thing about F/OSS - you don't have to. And if you're sincerely interested in getting involved we're always open to constructive discussion.
<pleia2> (as an aside, let us know you're there to be helpful, we get a lot of trolls and while we work hard not to brush people off, if people join #ubuntu-women looking like they're trying to start a fight, we'll act accordingly)
<hypa7ia> or trying to hit on people!
<maco> or rant about their wives
<Bodsda> s/wives/girlfriends
<pleia2> So, you want to help Ubuntu be more friendly to women? The easy answer is to strive to make it more friendly to everyone! But there are a couple of specific resources to review if you'd like to focus on women:
<pleia2> HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux: http://valerieaurora.org/howto.html which is the canonical resource we point to for people who want a glimpse into the key things they can do (and avoid!) when working to get women involved with Linux
<pleia2> Dorothea Salo: What Some Folks Can Do, If They Choose: http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2007/03/30/what-some-folks-can-do-if-they-choose/ which discusses how men can stand up when they see sexist or other inappropriate behavior that drives people away
<pleia2> and I had the one from gregknicholson which I read earlier in the day: http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html
<pleia2> That's all I've got :) We can get back to questions.
<maco> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I don't think theres an issue with guys getting other guys into opensource/freesoftware, but how to get  females to encoruge other females to do so?
<pleia2> for me, the most valuable thing for getting other females involved is to show them that I'm doing it
<pleia2> that goes much further than you'd think :)
<sebsebseb> pleia2: or if a guy like me,  maybe  show them that other women do it?
<pleia2> sebsebseb: sure!
<maco> sebsebseb: did you see mdz and james_w's posts on Planet Ubuntu for Ada Lovelace Day, showing their female-tech heroines? There's an example
<pleia2> I recently had a fellow join our LoCo channel who said he had a lot of success in getting women he knew interested after showing them stuff about Ubuntu Women and LinuxChix, it made me smile :)
<pleia2> next?
<sebsebseb> maco: nope don't know what your talking about, got a link?
<maco> http://jameswestby.net/weblog/tech/09-lady-day.html and http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/03/25/ada-lovelace-day/
<pleia2> thanks maco :)
<sebsebseb> maco: ok thanks  I'll have a look
<maco> it's about showing role models, and that's something you can do
<sebsebseb> yep
<maco> ready for the next one?
<pleia2> yep
<hypa7ia> there's recent research showing too that role models are even more important for women than men
<hypa7ia> just sayin'
<hypa7ia> :)
<maco> <pwnguin> QUESTION: is it effective to market Ubuntu to young women with the color pink, or potentially offensive?
<pleia2> only if they like pink :)
 * pleia2 knows loads of young women who can't stand it
<hypa7ia> it is potentially problematic
<pleia2> I think the color is far less important than how it's presented in general
<hypa7ia> stereotyping and all
<hypa7ia> yeah
<hypa7ia> ^^
<maco> along that line...
<maco> <elk80> QUESTION: A previous question referenced pink (and multi-color!) Netbooks.. Have you seen any women in FOSS growth that can be sourced to the whole Linux Netbook phenomena? Maybe due to widespread visibility and less techie styled notebooks?
<pleia2> I know at least two of my non-techie friends are in the market for an Ubuntu mini9 because I carry my pink one with unicorn stickers around everywhere :)
<pleia2> and no, they aren't going with pink, but they were pleased that they could come in different colors
<pleia2> next?
<maco> <dtchen> QUESTION: what sort of mentoring successes have been highlighted, and how can this outreach be extended to middle schoolers and high schoolers?
<pleia2> one of my favorite new websites I read about in an ACM article a couple months back (the issue was focused on women in tech) is this: http://girlsgotech.org/
<pleia2> there are a few different projects like that out there, unfortunately I'm not the best one to answer it since I'm not very involved in this area
<pleia2> next?
<maco> <LaserJock> QUESTION: sometimes being nice or catering to a woman is seen as being offensive. How can us guys be encouraging without being *too* nice?
<pleia2> good question, it's a delicate balance
<pleia2> and it's not easy to strike, but I think the best approach is to carefully make her feel included (standing alone at a LUG because people are scared of you is no fun either)
<pleia2> but don't stare at her and address every question and comment her way
<pleia2> there are also some tips in the Encourage Women how-to
<pleia2> one more question and then we have to wrap things up
<maco> <Baby> QUESTION: There are quite few of us in FOSS projects in general, and we often have lots of battles to fight. Of course battles have to be chosen carefully but even then, some burnout cannot be avoided. What can be done to prevent the burnout of the most visible women in FOSS projects?
<pleia2> very good point, my strategy has been taking breaks
<pleia2> whether it be from the core project, or just from the -women stuff
<pleia2> and preferably *before* you start considering becoming an accountant :)
<maco> <pwnguin> QUESTION: where can i find women to volunteer to speak at LUG and LoCo events?
<pleia2> first stop is http://www.geekspeakr.com/
<pleia2> if you can't find someone there, look around your community - is there a woman who infrequently posts but always has interesting things to say? Invite her to speak
<pleia2> That's all we have time for :) if anyone wants to continue discussion we can pop over to #ubuntu-women
<hypa7ia> and encourage the women you know to post profiles to geekspeakr!
<hypa7ia> :D
<pleia2> thanks for coming and being such an awesome audience :D
<james_w> thanks pleia2 and everyone
<Bodsda> thanks pleia2
<sebsebseb> pleia2: this was good :)
<jegomez> Tank you, it's been a great panel
 * hypa7ia claps
 * Baby hugs pleia2 :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Next session starts @ 15:00 UTC || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dtchen> for people idling in here, in about 2 minutes, i'll be giving an SRU tutorial
<Mike||busy> what's SRU?
<dtchen> Mike||busy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<dtchen> background: in #ubuntu-offtopic, MadPilot was bemoaning the state of Muine in Jaunty
<zaidka> dtchen, is this in the timetable?
<dtchen> the relevant bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/muine/+bug/366620
<dtchen> zaidka: no, it's impromptu
<zaidka> then dtchen, you're awesome :)
<dtchen> for starters, when i first took a look at the bug a few minutes ago, there was no link to the Debian bug
<dtchen> whenever i look at Ubuntu bugs using Launchpad, if the bugs have no Debian and/or upstream bug references, i seek them out
<dtchen> i then add them
<dtchen> so in this instance, i looked at http://packages.qa.debian.org/muine
<dtchen> (that's known as PTS, or Debian Package Tracking System)
<dtchen> to add the Debian bug reference to the Ubuntu bug in Launchpad, i clicked "Also affects distribution"
<dtchen> in the Distribution dropdown, i chose Debian
<dtchen> note that in PTS, on the trailing vertical edge (for English speakers, the right side), there's a link to bugs
<dtchen> in PTS, i clicked the 9 for "All bugs"
<dtchen> i found debian #524181, read its description and status to confirm, and pasted its url into the "Also affects distribution" text entry field
<dtchen> any questions thus far?
<dtchen> ok, continuingi
<zaidka> QUESTION: Why does it matter to Ubuntu what other distros a certain bug affects?
<dtchen> the next step after linking the Debian upstream bug is to search for the GNOME upstream bug
<genii> /topic
<genii> oops, sorry
<dtchen> zaidka: it matters that we have as many links to other bug trackers as possible for the same bugs, because there are only so many resources available for development
<dtchen> zaidka: the more eyes looking at bugs, the higher the probability someone will have a resolution
<dtchen> zaidka: often, the same bugs plague different Linux distributions
<dtchen> zaidka: perhaps most importantly, we take advantage of web search engines: Google is often used to search for workarounds/fixes to symptoms
<dtchen> zaidka: having many bug links is an effective way to harness more resources
<dtchen> any other questions before i continue?
<zaidka> should we ask here or in -chat?
<dtchen> here is fine
<zaidka> okay. no more questions from me :)
<dtchen> all right, so we need to find if there's an existing GNOME bug for the symptoms
<dtchen> i next browsed over to http://svn.gnome.org/ to discover that it has been deprecated for git :-)
<dtchen> by the way, this just happens to be one approach; other developers/maintainers have their approaches
<dtchen> (i read changelogs and source code commits regularly, so that's my preferred approach)
<dtchen> so, having been redirected to git, i find the muine repository
<dtchen> upon reading the changelogs, i see there's a commit for a very similar-looking bug
<dtchen> 2008-11-10Fix for bgo #560077 non-working buttons on Add Song/Album windows. Patch
<genii> Q: Does the "Affects other distributions" also somehow know/decide which upstream package it may be that is affected? Many packages have *buntu specific naming, etc and may be difficult sometimes to suss out the upstream name/originating packages
<dtchen> genii: in my experience, one needs to set the package explicitly
<genii> dtchen: OK, thanks
<dtchen> so, upon clicking the link for the commit, we see the changes are applicable to the symptom described in the Ubuntu bug
<dtchen> not only that, but we now have an upstream bug to link to!
<dtchen> that's what i'll take care of right now
<dtchen> there are generally a couple ways to do so
<dtchen> you can either leave a comment with the url of the upstream bug, and/or you can choose "Also affects project"
<dtchen> when you choose "Also affects project", you'd enter "muine" in the text entry field
<dtchen> on the next screen, you'd fill in the url to the upstream bug (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=560077) in the "I already have..."
<dtchen> so, now that we have a Debian bug entry and a GNOME bug entry in the Ubuntu bug report, we can get to work on fixing the bug for jaunty-proposed
<dtchen> as i mentioned earlier, this process is outlined at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<dtchen> i tend to get the patches and debdiffs in order first (uploaded to Launchpad) and then fill out the SRU information in the bug description
<stefanlsd> QUESTION: Wouldnt we be checking / fixing karmic first?
<dtchen> stefanlsd: yes, that's appropriate and a very good point
<dtchen> in this case, we'd want to file a bug using the Debian BTS, attach a debdiff against sid's 0.8.10-3, and have it merged as appropriate into karmic
<dtchen> again, my approach is to do all the work in parallel, so even though it seems like i'm jumping ahead, i'm actually just changing the debdiffs as appropriate :-)
<dtchen> the patch we're interested in is http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/patch/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
<dtchen> it's linked at (patch) from http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/commit/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
<dtchen> now, for the next part, you'll need the patchutils binary package installed
<dtchen> i saved the patch to ~, but of course one can save it anywhere one pleases
<dtchen> wget -O ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff http://git.gnome.org/cgit/muine/patch/?id=ed0e81a673fbe09fa18622ff437c36075d33984d
<dtchen> the next part assumes some packaging knowledge, so if you're not familiar with patching systems, please see the Ubuntu wiki for various tutorials/sessions on patch systems
<dtchen> next, pull down the jaunty source for muine. you'll either need to manually wget each portion of the source package (yuck), or you can use pull-lp-source (from the ubuntu-dev-tools binary package), or you can use dget (in devscripts) or dgetlp (in ubuntu-dev-tools)
<dtchen> and, of course, if you have a deb-src line for jaunty universe, you can just `apt-get source muine'
<dtchen> now, since you're read the SRU wiki page, note that the changes need to be as uninvasive as possible
<dtchen> upon inspecting the patch (in ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff now)
<dtchen> i see there is a patch hunk in Changelog that i don't need to apply, since i'll be referencing it in debian/changelog anyway
<dtchen> (a handy tool to do this is called diffstat, i.e., diffstat ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff)
<dtchen> next, i look to see whether there is existing patching infrastructure, e.g., quilt, cdbs, etc.
<dtchen> i can see from debian/changelog and from the lack of debian/patches/ that the source has been patched inline
<dtchen> standard practise is not to introduce patching infrastructure if it's not already present
<dtchen> (there are arguments pro and con, but i won't discuss them now)
<dtchen> thus, i'm going to apply the changes directly to the source (as has been done in jaunty)
<dtchen> so, in the extracted source directory, i'll use: filterdiff -x '*ChangeLog' ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff |patch -p1 --dry-run
<dtchen> (next, i'd apply the patch by removing the --dry-run, since i've determined that the patch applies cleanly)
<dtchen> now it's off to edit debian/changelog and add the appropriate SRU information
<dtchen> the new version will be 0.8.10-1ubuntu2.1, and the distribution will be jaunty-proposed instead of jaunty
<zaidka> QUESTION: How did you decide what version number you should give it?
<dtchen> zaidka: i tend to follow the older -security/-proposed protocol, which just bumps the minor version
<stefanlsd> zaidka: Have a look here- describes it well.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update the packaging
<dtchen> the correct answer, however, is that all SRUs need to have a version lower (sorted before) than the version in the current development branch
<dtchen> knowing that the karmic version will be 0.8.10-3ubuntu1 to retain existing Ubuntu changes and incorporate Debian changes, anything lower than 0.8.10-3ubuntu1 would work
<dtchen> (presuming there's not going to be a 0.8.10-4 to sid that rolls in all the changes)
<dtchen> i or any other dev/maintainer am happy to discuss the versioning intricacies in #ubuntu-motu after this
<zaidka> QUESTION: the fix will automatically go to the next version of Ubuntu? or do I have to manually submit it again?
<dtchen> zaidka: that brings me to stefanlsd's earlier question
<dtchen> zaidka: ideally the fix is uploaded to the next version of Ubuntu
<dtchen> in this case, i'll work on pushing the fix to Debian sid and Ubuntu karmic simultaneously
<dtchen> then, if all the Ubuntu changes are subsumed in the next sid packaging revision, then one can request a sync from sid
<dtchen> so, to answer your question, because there's an existing Ubuntu delta, the fixes won't be automatically applied
<dtchen> one needs to push to karmic and jaunty-proposed
<dtchen> i'm not going to cover merging for karmic, because this is already growing lengthy, but someone in #ubuntu-motu will be happy to answer further questions
<dtchen> after the changes have been made, one needs to rebuild the source package using debuild -S
<dtchen> then, one can use pbuilder/sbuild to generate a deb, and then one can use piuparts to test it
<dtchen> one important process bit is modifying the Ubuntu bug report for attribution, so i've assigned the bug to myself and changed the status appropriately
<stefanlsd> QUESTION: Should we be nominating this bug for Karmic and Jaunty and attaching both debdiffs to the same bug?
<dtchen> stefanlsd: yes
<stefanlsd> QUESTION: What do you mean by 'for attribution'?
<dtchen> unfortunately, since i'm no longer core-dev, i can't accept or reject release nominations
<dtchen> stefanlsd: the connotation would be "who's working on it, or who do i blame for it?"
<stefanlsd> dtchen: got it :)
<dtchen> now, for sake of time, i'll just proceed as if the karmic version is going to be 0.8.10-1ubuntu3
<dtchen> that way we'll see 0.8.10-1ubuntu3 in karmic and 0.8.10-1ubuntu2.1 in jaunty-proposed
<dtchen> the last step is completing the template for SRU in the bug description
<dtchen> i'm also skipping over the part where i use a vm to test the change
<dtchen> (i have a jaunty desktop cd booted in virtualbox for that purpose)
<dtchen> are there any further questions so far?
<zaidka> QUESTION: when I submit the patch, does it go directly to proposed or does someone have to review it first?
<dtchen> zaidka: it's reviewed first
<dtchen> zaidka: both by motu-sru and by whomever accepts the upload
<dtchen> zaidka: if you don't have upload privileges to Ubuntu universe, whoever sponsors the upload also would review it
<zaidka> QUESTION: I'm not sure I understand, someone has to upload it for me? if so, will it still be under my name?
<dtchen> zaidka: if your name is in the changelog, yes, it will be in your name
<dtchen> zaidka: more specifically, if your name and e-mail address are listed for the main changelog entry, yes, the upload will appear in your name
<dtchen> what would happen is this:
<dtchen> one would attach the debdiffs and update the bug description
<dtchen> then the source changes will be approved (acked) by a member of ~motu-sru
<dtchen> then a member of ~ubuntu-universe-sponsors will (re)sign the source package and upload it
<genii> Interesting process.
 * zaidka just realizes there's more to software development than programming .
<dtchen> right, the coding portion is really a small part
<dtchen> the design and QA are *supposed* to be the most critical portions
<dtchen> for the SRU process, we don't want people's packages breaking any worse than the release version
<dtchen> hence the additional checks
<dtchen> now, i've just walked through the process, but an enterprising person will note that a very similar debdiff already exists in bug 294659
<meshuggah_> dtchen, i dont really understand this channel, are you giving a course?
<dtchen> meshuggah_: i just gave an impromptu course on an example of the StableReleaseUpdate process, yes
<meshuggah_> dtchen, it is nice from you and this community
<dtchen> (people really don't use this channel often enough)
<meshuggah_> dtchen, are you paid for it?
<meshuggah_> no :)
<meshuggah_> i dont think you are
<dtchen> (correct, no)
<meshuggah_> so we all thank you i think
<cody-somerville> indeed we do
<dtchen> you're welcome, but the thanks really go to the people who mentored me
<zaidka> QUESTION: How is debdiff different from regular diff?
<stefanlsd> hehe. thanks. it was really great. (i learnt a couple of cool things). and kept me awake at 4.30am
<meshuggah_> stefanlsd, living in UK?
<dtchen> zaidka: a debdiff has additional data pertaining to Debian source package-specific things
<meshuggah_> dtchen, can i ask you question i have, about, thing you arent teaching right now?
<dtchen> meshuggah_: sure, but i don't know if i'll be the appropriate person to answer it
<stefanlsd> meshuggah_: south africa (same time zone)
<dtchen> zaidka: e.g., a debdiff can be generated against two Debian/Ubuntu source packages, so the debdiff will contain hunks pertaining to debian/changelog, etc.
<meshuggah_> dtchen, how can i make my TV-OUT of my videocard works? :)
<dtchen> zaidka: more specifically, a debdiff is a diff, but not all diffs are debdiffs
<meshuggah_> dtchen, everything is working great, but even after a few hours of trying i didnt found how
<zaidka> interesting
<dtchen> zaidka: more to the example, the ~/fix-add-dialogs.diff is a diff, but it's not a debdiff
<meshuggah_> dtchen, evertyhing except tv-out
<dtchen> zaidka: on the other hand, http://paste.ubuntu.com/161107/ is a debdiff
<dtchen> meshuggah_: sorry, but i think that question is better posed in #ubuntu
<meshuggah_> dtchen, i tried before, anyway i thank you for your time
 * nixternal jams some meshuggah now!
<dtchen> all right, thanks for the questions!
<zaidka> dtchen, are we done for now?
<meshuggah__> * dtchen (i=crimsun@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.bronze.crimsun) a quittÃ© #ubuntu-classroom
<meshuggah__> he isnt here
<zaidka> oh then I guess we are done
<zaidka> :)
<DivxcluB> Hello everybody. After Clean install on 9.04 I installed ATI drivers for my 4870x2, after reboot I can't login screen is messed up and everything is frozen right on moment of login screen. Plesee help. I have video of my boot on youtube, If possible please help here is video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFzRUkQS7_U      Thank you again
<genii> DivxcluB: I think you want the support channel
<genii> DivxcluB: /join #ubuntu       for instance (or xubuntu or kubuntu etc)
 * JManGt is back (gone 06:06:32)
<dholbach> GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY!
<dholbach> who do we have here for the Packaging Training session? :)
<rww> o/
<genii> It's morning?
<rww> genii: in crazy UTC people time, yeah. 11pm here :(
<dholbach> genii: it is over here - 08:01 right now :-)
<Rail> moin moin
<dholbach> so... do we have any questions already before we kick off the session?
<Crusher> nope
<dholbach> alright... :-)
 * jost86 gets Coffee...
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted is the one page you absolutely need to bookmark :)
<dholbach> it contains links to all important documentation
<dholbach> like the Packaging Guide, like the Developer Videos, Ubuntu Developer process documentation, simple bugs to start working on etc
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> which version of Ubuntu are you all running?
<Crusher> jaunty
<djails> Hardy
<rww> Jaunty :)
<jost86> jaunty
<genii> 8.04.2
<dholbach> alright :)
<zaidka> hardy
<slangasek> breezy
<zaidka> kidding.. jaunty
<maxb> jaunty with a karmic install available for dual-booting :-)
<sebsebseb> upgraded 8.10,  to 9.04 alpha6, to beta, to  rc.  install that has some issues from alpha6, so will eventualy clean install
<zaidka> ubuntu cambridge
<dholbach> if you want to work on Ubuntu, you absolutely need to have the latest development release
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains how to do that in a sane way :)
<dholbach> I personally had chroots (explained on there as well) for a long time, but now I almost exclusively use kvm (used virtualbox in the past)
<nixternal> woowoo
<dholbach> you absolutely need to be able to test packages in the ubuntu version you're about to upload them for :-)
<nixternal> teach me ol' great one!
<dholbach> nixternal: come on... you've been around long enough already :)
 * genii feeds nixternal some pie to quieten him down
<nixternal> mmmmm
<dholbach> for now, let's just keep using the version we're all comfortable with, but please make a note to set up a VM at some stage :-)
<dholbach> please run:
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools devscripts build-essential gnupg
<dholbach> it will install a bunch of packages for you we're going to need for the session
<nixternal> isn't gnupg installed by default already?
<dholbach> maybe nixternal can exaplain what they're there for
<dholbach> nixternal: just making sure :)
<nixternal> k, confused me for a sec
<raylu> if we're packaging for the current release, we won't need the latest dev release, right?
<zaidka> what! none of them is installed by default
<genii> I have to beg out, I'll be /away but checking the backscroll later
<dholbach> raylu: for now we'll just play around with the tools, set things up and so on
<nixternal> raylu: correct, though you never know when you will want to start developing for the next release
<dholbach> raylu: if you want to upload packages for karmic, you need to have them built and tested on karmic :)
<dholbach> raylu: I hope that makes sense
 * nixternal notes to fix it in the dev cycle and backport/sru as needed to the current stable release
 * ara remembers that if there is someone that prefer to make questions in Spanish, they can be posted at #ubuntu-classroom-chat-es
<nixternal> thanks ara!
<raylu> dholbach: right; just that you said we "absolutely" need the latest dev release
 * nixternal goes back to watching and hushes up
<dholbach> raylu: right, "absolutely" for testing :-)
<dholbach> and "in some form" :)
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> so this is what the packages are for:
<rww> "Please select the mail server configuration type that best meets your needs." =/
<dholbach> rww: you can purge mailx and the mailserver afterwards - sorry
<dholbach> or use --no-install-recommends
<dholbach> (in the apt-get call)
<nixternal> rww: just do the top selection, no configuration for now
<dholbach>  - gnupg (installed by default as nixternal said) can sign and encrypt files (we use it to sign source packages)
<dholbach>  - build-essential: will install the bare minimum to be able to compile (very simple packages): the compiler, make, etc.
<dholbach>  - devscripts: a bunch of tools that make Debian packaging much easier (especially repetitive tasks)
<dholbach>  - ubuntu-dev-tools: much like devscripts, but more closely tied to Ubuntu
<dholbach> any questions so far?
<jost86> nope
<teknico> I got here late
<slangasek> using --no-install-recommends (or setting it in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/) is highly advisable for a development chroot, not just because it saves download/configuration time, but because that's a more accurate model of how the buildds work
<teknico> are there logs anywhere?
<dholbach> teknico: sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends ubuntu-dev-tools devscripts build-essential gnupg    (is where we are right now)
<dholbach> plus a bunch of links that will be available on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training later on
<teknico> thx
<dholbach> ok, please edit   ~/.pbuilderrc    in your favourite editor and add the following
<dholbach> COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
<dholbach> and then save the file
<rww> teknico: http://paste.ubuntu.com/161169/
<dholbach> we often use a tool called pbuilder which will build source packages in a minimal environment for us (sets up that environment, installs the build-depends packages, builds the package, etc in an automated fashion)
<dholbach> for now just run
<dholbach>    pbuilder-dist create <your Ubuntu version>         (hardy, jaunty, karmic, whatever)
<dholbach> it will set up the initial pbuilder
<dholbach> the nice thing about pbuilder-dist is, that you can set up different build environments for karmic, jaunty, intrepid, hardy, etc etc :)
<dholbach> (also Debian versions)
<dholbach> so that's pretty neatr
<dholbach> neat
<Crusher> dholbach: if you already have a pbuilder environment setup, will this overwrite it?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto has more info about that tool
<dholbach> Crusher: did you use pbuilder-dist?
<rww> dholbach: are "create" and "<your ubuntu version>" switched around? I'm getting an error
<Crusher> dholbach: no
<dholbach> rww: they are :-)
<dholbach>    pbuilder-dist <your Ubuntu version> create        (hardy, jaunty, karmic, whatever)
<dholbach> thanks a lot rww
 * dholbach didn't sleep very well last night *yawn*
<dholbach> Crusher: in that case it shouldn't, but you can safely skip the step as well
<dholbach> ok... while that's running, let's set up a GPG key
<dholbach> who of you does not have a GPG key set up yet?
<jost86> i might have one... but I dont remember it
<dholbach> awesome, looks like we can skip a step :)
<jost86> well go ahead
<dholbach> jost86: what does     ls ~/.gnupg/pubring.gpg     say?
<dholbach> do you have that file?
<jost86> yep, present
<dholbach> super
<dholbach> basically I would have run you through the steps of:
<dholbach>   gpg --gen-key
<dholbach>   gpg --send-keys <key>
<dholbach> and putting it up on Launchpad
<raylu> i'd "gpg -K" to make sure you actually have a key
<dholbach> raylu: good one - great
<jost86> k, i think i'll figure that out :) thx
<dholbach> if you didn't put up your GPG key on Launchpad, you can do it here:   https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys
<dholbach> in the beginning you won't need the GPG key very often, as you're not directly allowed to upload packages to Ubuntu yet
<dholbach> but I'll get back to the "upload packages part" in a bit
<dholbach> if you use bash (default shell), please add something like this to your ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> these are variables that are used by the tools in devscripts and it'll save you typing your name over and over again :)
<dholbach> (editing changelog entries is one of the very common use-cases)
<dholbach> another thing you need to make sure when you're working on Ubuntu packages is that you have source package repositories enabled in apt
<dholbach> so you need something like this in your /etc/apt/sources.list
<dholbach> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ jaunty restricted main multiverse universe
<dholbach> (of course replace jaunty with karmic or hardy or whatever you're using)
<dholbach> you can also use the System -> Administration -> Software Sources tool
<dholbach> (or whatever it's called in English, sorry :-))
<dholbach> once you've configured that, you can simply run
<dholbach>    sudo apt-get update
<dholbach>    apt-get source hello
<dholbach> and it will download you the current source code for that package from the archive
<dholbach> any questions up until now?
<dholbach> so let's run
<dholbach>   apt-get source hello
<dholbach> it's a very very boring package, but we'll download it anyway now
<dholbach> apt is going to download the following files:
<dholbach>  hello_2.2-3.diff.gz
<dholbach>  hello_2.2-3.dsc
<dholbach>  hello_2.2.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> (might be other versions on your system)
<dholbach> let's go through them one by one
<dholbach> the .orig.tar.gz file is the original pristine untouched tarball that was downloaded from the website of the software authors
<dholbach> in this case it's from something like ftp.gnu.org
<dholbach> it's important that we don't change it (only very rare cases where it's justified), but merely rename it to something like
<dholbach>    <software project>_<version>.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> the .diff.gz file contains the compressed set of changes we need to apply to make the package build the Ubuntu or Debian way
<dholbach> that's "the packaging"
<dholbach> basically we add a directory called  ./debian/  to the source which further describes the package, the history of the packaging, the copyright and so on
<dholbach> when I said "make it build the Ubuntu/Debian way", I meant that we wrap a build process around the existing build system that the upstream package offers
<dholbach> in the standard case of a C+autotools project that would be something like   ./configure; make; sudo make install
<dholbach> in a python+setuptools case that would be    python setup.py install   (or something like that)
<dholbach> the reason for that is: we want just one way to build packages :-)
<dholbach> the .dsc file contains just some bits of metadata, like the md5sum of the files, etc.
<dholbach> are there any questions up until now?
<Crusher> dholbach: under what circumstances do we make native packages?
<dholbach> Crusher: good question
<rww> dholbach: I have a directory hello-2.2 with a bunch of files in it too, that you didn't mention...
<dholbach> rww: will get to that in a sec
<dholbach> it seems that Crusher has read a few chapters of the packaging guide already :-)
<rww> dholbach: oh, okay. Just checking I didn't do something wrong :)
<Crusher> ;)
<dholbach> rww: no, you're doing great :-)
<raylu> after you answer that... what if their source relies on a directory called "debian" already?
<dholbach> so in the case of a native package, you just have a    <project>_<version>.tar.gz    and a    <project>_<version>.dsc     file
<dholbach> which means all Packaging changes are in the .tar.gz file too
<dholbach> so you can't easily tell apart which change was done by the packager and which came from upstream
<dholbach> also it means that for every small packaging change (update the package description for example) you need to upload the whole tarball (might be several MB)
<dholbach> in the other case you just upload the .diff.gz and the .dsc (ie: 1.2-1: upload the .tar.gz, 1.2-2: just upload the .diff.gz)
<dholbach> ok, so why do we use that option?
<dholbach> in some cases we are upstream of the package (and don't do regular .tar.gz releases) and keep everything in svn or bzr or git or whatever
<dholbach> in that case, especially if it's a small package, we just dump everything in that .tar.gz file and make it a native package
<dholbach> Crusher: did that make sense?
<Crusher> dholbach: yes
<dholbach> raylu: some upstream maintainers decide to ship their own Debian packaging, so there's a debian/ directory already
<dholbach> that's one of the rare cases where we repackage the tarball and rip out the existing packaging
<dholbach> it makes reading the .diff.gz much easier
<nixternal> what about asking upstream to release a prestine tarball without a debian directory?
<dholbach> nixternal: very good point, it makes a lot of sense to do that
<dholbach> but in the meantime that's probably what you do
<dholbach> alright... cracking on and getting to rww's question
<dholbach> what about the hello-2.2 directory
<dholbach> "apt-get source" (actually it's dpkg-source -x) is a clever tool - what it did for us was
<dholbach>  - extract the tarball
<dholbach>  - use the .diff.gz and patch the code with our packaging changes
<dholbach> (and check the md5sums along the way)
<dholbach> so if you check out the hello-2.2 directory, you'll see that there's a debian/ directory already
<dholbach> now let's test-build the package
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>    pbuilder-dist <your release> build hello_*.dsc
<dholbach> this might take some time
<dholbach> and I hope you all get addicted of watching build messages fly by and get involved with Ubuntu development :-)
<raylu> if i wanted that, i'd be using gentoo
<dholbach> haha :)
<dholbach>   ~/pbuilder/*_result/   should now contain the resulting .deb file
<dholbach> raylu: right but in our case, you do one fix and 10 million other users benefit from it
<dholbach> if you check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes you'll find a bunch of examples of what you can do with the packaging tools and perform simpler tasks like "upgrade package to a new upstream", "make a small change", etc.
<dholbach> once you created a small patch, you can use the Sponsorship Process to get it included in Ubuntu
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess has all the gory details
<dholbach> so what's that for?
<dholbach> you're only allowed to upload Ubuntu source packages directly when you're part of the development team
<dholbach> until then you need to get your patches reviewed and then uploaded by somebody else
<dholbach> so what you do is: attach the patch to a bug report on Launchpad (or link to the source package you uploaded somewhere)
<imbrandon> its not as scary as it sounds
<dholbach> then subscribe the sponsors team
<dholbach> and they'll review the patch, give you feedback, etc.
<dholbach> then apply the patch to the source package, sign it with their GPG key and upload it for you
<dholbach> imbrandon: exactly
<dholbach> the sponsors team is a really friendly bunch and you'll learn a lot that way
<dholbach> once you've been through that process a couple of times, people will tell you that you should join the team, and then it's time to send in a short "application"
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers has more details about that
<dholbach> did that scare you? :-)
<dholbach> do you have any questions about the process?
 * jost86 dreams of being rich and famous ;)
<teknico> o/
<teknico> the pbuilder command built a .deb package
<dholbach> teknico: so you're scared? or do you have a question? :)
<dholbach> teknico: yep
<teknico> the dsc file is no more signed, though
<teknico> how come?
<rww> dholbach: "patch" in the above means debdiffs we create with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff , right?
<dholbach> teknico: I usually don't use the .dsc files from *result/, but I guess it's to make sure you don't upload them accidentally
<imbrandon> teknico:  correct you'll have to source build and resign after pbuilder if testing goes ok
<dholbach> teknico: dput will refuse to upload them for you (unless you force it to)
<imbrandon> rww: correct
<dholbach> rww: a general patch should be fine, but a debdiff (with a nice changelog entry) will speed things up
<dholbach> that's one of the most important points: always document your work properly
<dholbach> next week we're going to have a session about PPAs, so Dustin Kirkland will talk a bit about how to upload packages to Launchpad
<dholbach> that should be interesting and tie in quite well with this session
<dholbach> any more questions? :)
<djails> can you point me to docs on how to package shared libs ?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted should contain all the links I mentioned earlier
<dholbach> djails: hang on
<dholbach> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-sharedlibs.html is the debian policy section for it
<dholbach> and we had a session about that already, let me find it
<djails> thanks
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/LibraryPackaging
<djails> awesome !
<dholbach> it's been a while since that session, but most things should not have changed
<dholbach> also I'd recommend checking out a few very simple other library packages
<dholbach> libsexy for example
<dholbach> any other questions?
<sbeattie> dholbach: is there anything specific about packaging perl packages?
<dholbach> ok cool - feel free to join #ubuntu-motu and ask all questions there - the people in there are really friendly and will help you out for sure
<dholbach> sbeattie: I'm sure there is, I just did one in the past and used perlmodule.mk (part of CDBS) and made sure I used ${perl:Depends} somewhere
<dholbach> sbeattie: that's all I know
<sbeattie> dholbach: okay, thanks.
<dholbach> ok... thanks a lot everybody - it's been a great session!
 * Rail is going to request sponsorship for some packages :)
<dholbach> I had a lot of fun and hope to see you guys around more often from now on!
<dholbach> Rail: awesome!
<djails> dholbach: thanks, i ll try the REVU process for my pkg
<Rail> dholbach: thank you very much
<dholbach> djails: perfect
<rww> dholbach: Are the various videos on the ubuntudevelopers youtube account still up-to-date (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKLabbXTqMc ), or have there been any changes in the last year or so to watch out for?
<dholbach> have a great day everybody and hope to see you at the next sessions too :)
<dholbach> rww: there should be only small changes like change "hardy" to "jaunty" or something
<dholbach> rww: in principle it should be all the same still
<rww> dholbach: excellent, thanks :)
<dholbach> rock on everybody! :-)
<Crusher> thanks for the session dholbach, you have a great day aswell.
<jost86> thx
 * thekorn hugs dholbach, great session
<dholbach> gracias thekorn
<dme> dholbach: Very useful, thanks.
<mandybuntu> hello
<melat0nin> is this the place for the sabdfl chat at 3?
<melat0nin> hm, i'm two days late
<melat0nin> :(
<kenvandine_wk> melat0nin: there are logs :)
<kenvandine_wk> http://is.gd/5dFB
<melat0nin> kenvandine_wk: yeah got 'em, thankyou :) had a Fridge item in my RSS feed for about ten days now saying the chat was on the 30th, didn't think to check ><
<kenvandine_wk> melat0nin: oh... yeah i think it was originally proposed for today
<melat0nin> oh well, the logs make interesting reading anyway :)
<jcastro> wooo, 1 hour, 40 minutes until Open Week begins again!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1500 UTC: With a Little Help  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mmaret> jcastro: what's the subject of the next one?  With a Little Help sounds a bit like mistery :)
<mmaret> and the description on the wiki is empty
<jcastro> basically, how to find and get help
<mmaret> ok thx ;)
<jcastro> 35 minutes!
<imbrandon> :)
<jcastro> imbrandon: looking for me earlier?
<imbrandon> jcastro: yes, but i got to run for a few, can i hit you up before your day ends for like 15 min ?
<jcastro> yeah
<imbrandon> here or IM either one :)
<jcastro> I am relocating to a hotel for penguicon at some point today but I'll be around
<imbrandon> kk
<imbrandon> i'll only be gone like an hour
<imbrandon> or so
<jcastro> no worries
<billybigrigger> penguicon? might have to google that one...
<billybigrigger> where's that?
<jcastro> detroit
<jcastro> 15 minute warning!
<jcastro> effie_jayx: 15 minutes!
<effie_jayx> jcastro, cool ;)
<jcastro> 5 minute warning
<jcastro> thanks everyone for showing up today!
<jcastro> the schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> as always, please keep this channel clear during the sessions
<jcastro> and put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> we're on day 4 of openweek!
<jcastro> if you have feedback, good, bad, or otherwise, please send me a note to jorge@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> so that we can make Open Week better!
<effie_jayx> jcastro, ready?
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> take it away sir!
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> Hello, My name is Efrain Valles from Maracaibo, Venezuela. I am a member of the LoCo (Local Community) Council and the Ubuntu Membership Board of the Americas. I am also an _on and off_ basic packaging contributor and I love lurking for tricks and stuff to do on Ubuntu.
<effie_jayx> Welcome to "With a little help", This talk is intended for new ubuntu users that have joined the ubuntu world but would like to know how to find. I'll be sharing with you quite a few links so please have your bookmark ready in your favorite web browser.
<effie_jayx> Also keep an eye for important _HINTS_ I will be giving you during the talk.
<effie_jayx> As you may already know, all questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, all you need to do is prefix your question with "QUESTION:", example: "QUESTION: Where is Maracaibo?" and it magically appears here.
<effie_jayx> Let's get started.
<effie_jayx> This is the Agenda for "With a little help":
<effie_jayx> * Get to know your UBUNTU.
<effie_jayx> * Command line and UI.
<effie_jayx> * Meet the community help resourses.
<effie_jayx> * Considerations when using community support.
<effie_jayx> * The internet wilderness.
<effie_jayx> * Enter Commercial support.
<effie_jayx> * Help others.
<effie_jayx> First of all, welcome to Ubuntu as well. It is a Free and Open Source software sponsored by Canonical LTD. and it is the result of a great effort of a global community of developers and a conglomerate of projects in the free and open source world. make sure you check https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions
<effie_jayx> * Get to know your new OS
<effie_jayx> Getting to know your new os is very important, this helps you feel confortable on the strenghs of (K)(X)ubuntu. You probably feel at home with your old os, but this is because you took the time to know the whereabouts.
<effie_jayx> Ask these questions to yourself:
<effie_jayx> * What version of Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu are you using?
<effie_jayx> * What desktop environment are you using?
<effie_jayx> * What are the names of the applications you are using?
<effie_jayx> All of these will provide to be good keywords for narrowing down searches and sorting through topics easily. make sure you check https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/windows/C/glossary.html and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary
<effie_jayx> Desktop Environments and Command Line Interface.
<effie_jayx> You need to be able to find yourself in the graphical interface you are using so I suggest you check, the basic GNOME introduction. https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/newtoubuntu/C/index.html/overview.html which will lead you to documentation on how to get stuff done on your new system. If your  use Kubuntu  you can try the KDE docuemntation http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdebase-runtime/userguide/index.html. For Xubuntu users you c
<effie_jayx> an check out http://www.xfce.org/documentation/4.2/.
<effie_jayx> Some applications may be different from one another in Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu so it is helpfull to remember the names for when you are doing a search on that particular application. Example if you want to fix and issue with your instant messenger in Kubuntu. "My account won't login using Kopete".
<effie_jayx> Once you get acquainted to the interface I am sure you will feel right at home. :D
<effie_jayx> One thing that many users are intrigued by is the Linux Command line. It is perhaps one of the most useful tools in every linux environment. Learning how to use it is really simple and to receive help I sugest that you learn to do basic tasks with it. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal is a great place to start.
<effie_jayx> And you might think I am imposing command line, but the truth is there are different Desktop Environments and the command line stays the same for most of them. Installing and application in a different Kubuntu may be different in steps if you compare it to Xubuntu. so installing from a command line will guarantee you get it done faster.
<effie_jayx> Plus most of the help on the INTERNET at some point orients you to some command line usage. so it is always good to know the basics.
<effie_jayx> _HINT_: always check the command you are using to get something done. if you intend to use "sudo apt-get install foo" then it is useful to check that apt-get is a command that actually does what you want it to do. You can check this using man.
<effie_jayx> man apt-get
<effie_jayx> With all of that under our belt. then we are ready to actually get some help :D.
<effie_jayx> I do not see any questions up to this point so I will continue and check back with your questions later.
<effie_jayx> Meet the community help resources:
<effie_jayx> The community offers services that are oriented for different kinds of people. and they all encourage you to come and ask but also to consider that your questions or issues may have been already answered or solved.
<effie_jayx> The Ubuntu Community offers:
<effie_jayx> * Official Documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/
<effie_jayx> * Excellent Community Documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/community and https://wiki.ubuntu.com
<effie_jayx> * Web forums: http://www.ubuntuforums.org
<effie_jayx> * Mailing lists: lists.ubuntu.com
<effie_jayx> * LoCo (Local Community) Teams can help.
<effie_jayx> * Live Chat (IRC): #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels in the freenode server.
<effie_jayx> * Answers through Launchpad: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<effie_jayx> and much more
<effie_jayx> The Official Docuemntation: The Official Documentation is made available by the the Ubuntu Documentation Project, and it covers _supported_ versions of Ubuntu. It offers help from very basic tasks to advanced topics like installing server applications and such. https://help.ubuntu.com/
<effie_jayx> The Community documentation available https://help.ubuntu.com/community is written by people like you, though who about sharing what they had learned. you can also contribute by registering and login into the site.
<effie_jayx> The Ubuntu Forums, these are perhaps one of the key elements in the community support scheme. Its interactiveness and the great feeling of people that _live_ in this place is just fantastic. very organized and helpful people. I trongly suggest the basic Absolute Beginner Talk at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326 also check the Ubuntu Forums FAQ http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?f=48
<effie_jayx> _HINT_: please make sure you read and abide by the Forum Code of Conduct in the forums as it helps keeping it a great place. http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy.
<effie_jayx> Community support Mailing lists hosted in https://lists.ubuntu.com/#Community+Support are a great place if you are good at emails. there are several mailing lists available and searching the archives can be a very useful to and you avoid double posting. Subscribing to some of them is actually very good if you would like to find out what other people may be experiencing.
<effie_jayx> _HINT_: Do not ask for Ubuntu CD's in the Launchpad Mailing lists use ship it shipit.ubuntu.com ;)
<effie_jayx> LoCo Communities can help:
<effie_jayx> LoCo Teams are a great group of people in almost every country in the world and they can certainly help you. they are close to you and they might be running event check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and see if they offer support.
<effie_jayx> You can read more about LoCo teams at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
<effie_jayx> Live Chat on IRC:
<effie_jayx> Ubuntu help is always at hand with live chat. people from all over the world gather in support channels to help you solve your issues. The language used is English as it is considered a universal language but you can check a language specific channel or your LoCo team IRC channel and ask questions in your language. Check the list of channels at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<effie_jayx> _HINT_: make sure you follow the CoC guidelines when using IRC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct/.
<effie_jayx> and do not feed the trolls :)
<effie_jayx> Ubuntu being hosted at Launchpad.net offers Answers. this is a service that aims to make getting help simple. you ask your question and people answer. Pretty straight-forward. you can check it out at https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu.
<effie_jayx> I'll take the one question we have got on Answers
<effie_jayx> <ziroday> QUESTION: What is the difference between the forums and LP answers?
<effie_jayx> well, Answers is a service of launchpad and its aim is to be straight and simple you as another answers
<effie_jayx> the main difference with the forums being you do not need to cataloge you question before you ask and the content is strictly limited to questions
<effie_jayx> where in forums you might have tutorials and more. the idea being Ansers is much more direct.
<effie_jayx> ziroday, does that answer your question?
<ziroday> effie_jayx: yep, thanks!
<effie_jayx> Now that we know the community resources let's consider a few things
<effie_jayx> * Considerations when using community support:
<effie_jayx> - The work is done by volunteers so be patient and wait for your turn ;). Usually there is a great number of people volunteering so there shouldn't be a problem with getting help but if you ask on a Sunday at 04:00 it might make it a bit tough to get help.
<Omarman> I'm on a laptop with Nvidia 8600 graphics (DELL XPS 1530), Jaunty install. Is there a way to activate external monitor on separate x screen without having to restart X?
<sebsebseb> Omarman: wrong channel ask in #ubuntu :)
<effie_jayx> hello Omarman  you might want to try that in  #ubuntu ;)
<jcastro> hey, a live example!
<Omarman> Thank you guys
<effie_jayx> most definetelly :D
<effie_jayx> - Demonstrate that you are trying to solve your problem. Read enough documentation or forum posts so that when people try to help you, you can visualize and internalize what people are trying to tell you by evoking prior knowledge. You are also letting whoever is helping you that you are trying hard ;)
<effie_jayx> and if they know you are trying hard ... they will try even harder to help you
<effie_jayx> - Follow the Ubuntu Code of Conduct at all times and always be polite when asking and follow specific guidelines for each service. Manners matter.
<effie_jayx> - Make sure you always double check any suggestions you get from the INTERNET just in case you run into malicious code.
<effie_jayx> - ASK you question, The only stupid question is the one that doesn't get asked. Aslo don't ask to ask ... just ASK
<effie_jayx> - Make sure you add the words Ubuntu Kubuntu or Xubuntu to every search to narrow down results
<effie_jayx> - If results are only available for other linux distros then check if those are specific to that distro or if they work with your ubuntu system.
<effie_jayx> - It is not advised to add third party repositories to install applications that are not in the ubuntu repositories unless you feel confident the packages in that repository are safe. If you are in doubt then DON'T.
<effie_jayx> and good call to sebsebseb
<effie_jayx> Enter Commercial Support:
<effie_jayx> If you need to be covered with a dedicated support line then you must get support from canonical https://shop.canonical.com/. they will give you that World Class support you expect from a software vendor. and since Ubuntu is free and Open Source. the money they ask for suport seems like a good investment :D. there is support for 5/9 (office hours) and 24/7 for an around the clock support availability.
<sebsebseb> effie_jayx: for  reminding you that some software sources can possibily be bad
<effie_jayx> most definetely
<effie_jayx> Consider commercial support if you are not much of  power user
<effie_jayx> the reson for this is simple. You want your system to work and since ubuntu is FOSS then it is wise to spend the bucks you were paying in third party apps like anti virus and office suites.
<effie_jayx> Spend it on support. and you can call if anything goes wrong
<LHC> CLASS IS IN SESSION
<LHC> ubuntu > all according to this bible
<effie_jayx> Help others:
<effie_jayx> Ubuntu is all about helping one another. So help others and Share UBUNTU TODAY.
<effie_jayx> that's it for my talk I will take questions from now untill my time is up. which is a bit more thant 20 minutes
<effie_jayx> <BobJonkman>QUESTION: Can I purchase on-site support from Canonical?
<effie_jayx> I am not sure, maybe jcastro can help us with that
<effie_jayx> There is no world wide onsite support, for sure
<effie_jayx> but I do not know if there is any in Uk, the US or Canada
<jcastro> I am not sure
<effie_jayx> QUESTION:  If I'm not comfortable using the command line, is add/remove or synaptic package manager better and how do I know which one to use when?
<effie_jayx> well add/remove makes finding and installing packages very simple and intuitive
<effie_jayx> synaptics is very powerfull but it includes libraries and onder packages. it includes installing packages by tasks
<effie_jayx> if you do not feel confortable installing through a command line, ofcouse you can use add/remove. However this feature may be different in Kubuntu
<effie_jayx> <akgraner> does that cover it?
<akgraner> effie_jayx, yep!  :)
<effie_jayx> sebsebseb is also pointing out that Adept is by default in Kubuntu
<effie_jayx> also a very interesting point is that commands like apt-get is deprecated , and aptitude is the replacement
<effie_jayx> sebsebseb, anything else we can add to that ?
<sebsebseb> effie_jayx: no apt-get is deprecated in Debian, but not in Ubuntu
<effie_jayx> ahh right. sorry ;)
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu is based on Debian for those that didn't know,  with Debian being one of the first Linux distributions
<effie_jayx> well "With a little help" of sebsebseb we sorted that :P
<k-milogars> good
<sebsebseb> aptitude is  better at dealing with dependancies than apt-get,  so  it's usually better to install big stuff such as  xubuntu-desktop, or kubuntu-desktop,  if running Ubuntu,  with sudo aptitude install   rather than apt-get install
<effie_jayx> we got more comments just before we wrapp up
<effie_jayx> Adept is not the default package manager in Kubuntu from jaunty on. it's replaced by kpackagekit
<effie_jayx> thanks james_w :D
<effie_jayx> akgraner, but it does prove the point that things do change in the desktop environment and command line comes in handy
<sebsebseb> [16:51] <james_w> sebsebseb: apt-get isn't deprecated in Debian, and it now has the same handling of meta-packages as aptitude, so that doesn't matter so much anymore
<effie_jayx> <^arky^> Question: There is very sparse information about Ubuntu a11y features apart from those from upstream Gnome. Also the Ubuntu installer selection of a accessible install is very difficult for the blind user. Is there any plans to rectify this
<effie_jayx> I believe I can forward this question to the Documentation Team
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<effie_jayx> they held great sessions on tuesday on Docs Day
<effie_jayx> and I believe you can help too :D
<effie_jayx> ^arky^, does that cover your question?
<^arky^> Yes, I think so. But it would be great if you can forward this question
<effie_jayx> ^arky^,I will
<effie_jayx> well thank you all for coming by to learn a bit about how you can get some help. Special thanks to sebsebseb  and james_w  and all of you at #ubuntu-classroom-chat for such delightful talk
<effie_jayx> jcastro, thanks
<james_w> thanks effie_jayx, nice talk
<jcastro> thanks effie_jayx!
<^arky^> thanks effie_jayx
<sebsebseb> effie_jayx: thanks, it was good
<adiroiban> effie_jayx: thanks!
<akgraner> effie_jayx, Thanks!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1600 UTC: Running a Local Team  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> adiroiban: ok, quick break for everyone then you can begin!
<adiroiban> sure
<ziroday> thanks effie_jayx!
<charlie-tca> Thanks, effie_jayx
<adiroiban> Hi, My name is Adi Roiban, and I am here as a member of Ubuntu Translation Community.
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdiRoiban
<adiroiban> Durring this session I will try to touch some aspect about running an Ubuntu localization team and assuring translations quality
<adiroiban> David Planella (dpm) is also here, on behalf of Canonical.
<adiroiban> Beside this session, feel free to contact me or David for any question related to Ubuntu Translation Process.
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
<adiroiban> We will start with a short presentation, followed by a question and answer session.
<adiroiban> Don't forget that tomorrow, at the same hour, David will run an OpenWeek session entitled "Demythifying Launchpad Translations".
<adiroiban> First off all I will do a short introduction to Ubuntu Translation process, similar with the one done during "Translating Ubuntu Docs" session.
<adiroiban> Ubuntu localization process is based on Launchpad Translation web tool.
<adiroiban> You can learn how to use Launchpad Translations by reading the Launchpad help pages: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
<adiroiban> You can start translating Ubuntu right away, by following this page:
<adiroiban> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
<adiroiban> Everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu  into his/her language.
<adiroiban> When I said that everyone is free to help translating Ubuntu into his/her language, I mean that everyone can add suggestion / possible translations for an original text
<adiroiban> In Ubuntu, we have Ubuntu Localization teams, and they act as Translation Quality Assurance Team. They will review and approve suggestions.
<adiroiban> If you are an active translator and you are doing a great translation job you can request to join the Ubuntu Localization team appointed for your language
<adiroiban> Here you can find the team appointed for your language:
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> For any questions related to the translations of Ubuntu docs into your language, please contact the team appointed to your language.
<adiroiban> There is a wiki page dedicated to Translating Ubuntu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu
<adiroiban> If you are translating Ubuntu from time to time, or you are a member of an Ubuntu Translation/Localization team, you will find the above wikipage useful
<adiroiban> Roughly we can consider that we can have 2 types of Ubuntu localization teams.
<adiroiban> 1. Emerging teams
<adiroiban> 2. Well established teams
<adiroiban> During this session, I will focus on the emerging teams, but member of well established teams are invited to add suggestions and share best practices
<adiroiban> Like I said in the beginning, Ubuntu Translations teams act as quality assurance teams for localization. In the same time they are responsible for translating Ubuntu specific packages
<adiroiban> Here is a list of Ubuntu specific packages.
<adiroiban> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/UbuntuSpecificTranslations
<adiroiban> When you are member / coordinator of a new team you will find  there is long road in front of you and your team.
<adiroiban> There is a lot of work, so few members in the team. and assuring translations quality and consistency seems like an unachievable goal.
<adiroiban> While the team has less than 5 active members it is  a good idea to keep the team open, but as soon as the team starts to be active and it has dedicated contributors consider moderating the membership for new members.
<adiroiban> By allowing everyone to approve translations it will be very hard to assure the translation quality.
<adiroiban> By moderating the team, each new member will be evaluated. This does not imply a closed team, it's just that new teams are made aware of the teams process and rules.
<adiroiban> After the team has 2 or 3 active contributors please consider defining a guidelines for your team.
<adiroiban> The guidelines should be a set of rules/steps/indication about how you should translate Ubuntu into your language, together with some info about the translation process from your team.
<adiroiban> For the information regarding how to translate Ubuntu intro your language, please consult with the other translations teams that are doing translations for your language.
<adiroiban> By doing so you will assure the consistency between the translations made by your team and for example GNOME, KDE, Mozilla localization team...
<adiroiban> I tried to create a skeleton for such a guide
<adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/Guide
<adiroiban> There is an option to add a big banner in Launchpad Translations to warn new translators about the guildelines
<adiroiban> Here is a short tutorial about how to include your guidelines in Launchpad
<adiroiban> http://adi.roiban.ro/2009/03/20/localization-guidelines-in-launchpad-towards-improving-quality/
<adiroiban> Translations teams always struggle between translation quality/consistency and translation completeness.
<adiroiban> My suggestion is to balance the above goals.
<adiroiban> Source texts are added or modified very often and if you focus to much on quality there is a risk to loose the motivation, as your will not see to much progress.
<adiroiban> Also while being member of an Ubuntu Translation Team please don't forget about other active translations teams for your language.
<adiroiban> Ubuntu includes packages from many projects like GNOME, KDE and Ubuntu Translations teams should check the consistency of those packages as a whole.
<adiroiban> For shared translations please do the translations upstream and then only check them in Launchpad.
<adiroiban> This mean that for those translations you should work together with the upstream teams.
<adiroiban> While running an localization team you can improve the quality of translations made by other translators by giving feedback.
<adiroiban> you can consider creating a localization section on the Ubuntu Forum dedicated to your language
<adiroiban> also you can get in touch with other Ubuntu translators using the Ubuntu Translations mailing list
<adiroiban> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> or joining #ubuntu-translators IRC channel on  freenode
<adiroiban> Now we will continue with the questions and answer part.
<adiroiban> Also if you are member of on Ubuntu Localization team and would like to share some best practices, feel free to share them here.
<adiroiban> any questions ?
<adiroiban> ï»¿BobJonkman: QUESTION: What sort of things get translated? Just documentation?
<adiroiban> Ubuntu translations team handles both user interface  and documentation
<adiroiban> for for example we also translate the Ubuntu Start page
<adiroiban> and help with the translations of other texts, example Ubuntu Release Notes
<adiroiban> When there is a request for such a translations, it is always announces via the ubuntu-translators mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> any other questions?
<adiroiban> how many of you are already members of an Ubuntu Localization team (please use the -chat channel :)
<adiroiban> ?
<adiroiban> ï»¿DoruHush: QUESTION: What is the relation between the translation teams and the team that update the packages in order to be included in the regular system updates after the main release. What translation team should do in order that their work to be included in yhe regular system updates?
<hemanth> QUESTION : My professor is good at translation , but he is not good in using computers , he can translate hard copies , how can he help
<adiroiban> Translations team should make sure their translations are made available in Launchpad
<adiroiban> in order to create a updated package for a language
<adiroiban> the maintainer of the language package extracts the translations from Launchpad
<adiroiban> basicaly, a translations team should just use Launchpad for translation
<adiroiban> ï»¿hemanth: QUESTION : My professor is good at translation , but he is not good in using computers , he can translate hard copies , how can he help
<adiroiban> He should learn how to use Launchpad Translations web tool
<adiroiban> translating using Launchpad is really easy
<adiroiban> and basicaly is just like translating hard copies
<adiroiban> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/StartingToTranslate
<adiroiban> if he still have problems using Launchpad for translation, I suggest to contact the Ubuntu Localization team appointed for his language
<adiroiban> they should be able to guide him
<adiroiban> any other questions?
<JyZyXEL> i say stop wasting time translating, everyone can read english so there is no point making crappy translations that are just annoying
<adiroiban> ok.
<adiroiban> I think that you should translate for people that don't know english.
<adiroiban> a rought statistics sais that only 1.8 bilions of people knows english
<adiroiban> the translations are targeted to the other 5 bilions people
<adiroiban> ï»¿dpm: adiroiban: one thing I'd like to share as a member of a localization team is that resources like the Ubuntu wiki can be quite useful to a localization team, for example to track who's working on a translation in order not to duplicate work.
<adiroiban> ï»¿An example of such pages -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGermanTranslators/Aufgaben/Jaunty (German team). It is also useful for a team to look at what other teams are doing, and maybe learn somï»¿ething new and useful.
<adiroiban> Thank you very much for you attention. We will take a short break, and at 17.00 UTC Billy Cina and Belinda Lopez will continue with a session dedicated to Ubuntu Training
* nixternal changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1700 UTC: Ubuntu Training  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nixternal> thanks adiroiban!!!
<dpm> thanks Adi!
<nixternal> In approximately 5 minutes Billy Cina and Belinda Lopez will provide a session on Ubuntu Training...Please stand by...Thank you!
<nixternal> dinda: you ready? it is your turn!
<dinda> Yip - let's roll
<dinda> Greetings and welcome to the session on Ubuntu Training.
<dinda> and just for gregknicholson:  ï»¿Lllllllladies and gentlemen!
<nixternal> hehe
<dinda>  My name is Belinda Lopez and I am the Training Project Manager for Canonical.
<dinda> Joining me today is my boss, Billy Cina, the Training Programme Manager and Matthew Lye of the Community-based Ubuntu Learning team.  Matt's at work but will try to answer any questions if needed.
<dinda> In our roles at Canonical we deal with both public offerings/sales to the general public as well as providing course materials to our Training Partners.
<dinda>  I'll explain our current catalog in a bit but you can find more info at http://www.ubuntu.com/training
<dinda> Feel free to stop me at any time and ask questions and we'll also save time at the end.
<dinda> At that site you can locate courses in your areas and find our more info on our training partners who offer programs throughout the world.
<dinda> And just as there is both paid for support by Canonical and community resources, there is now a growing movement to have more community-based learning offerings along side our paid for training.
<dinda> That new community initiative is being led by Matthew Lye, Charles Proffit, Lyz Krumbach and others in the Ubuntu Learning project.
<dinda> They are in the process of setting up a Moodle-based Learning Management Server to create quality offerings for end users and contirbutors.  You can find more info on them at:
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<dinda> Charles led a session Monday during Open Week and you can find the transcript here:
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/CommunityLearning
<dinda> and there's my boss, Billy Cina :)
<billycina> hello
<dinda> wave billy
 * billycina waves
<dinda> 0/
<dinda> I just learned that yesterday here
<billycina> sorry - dodgy internet
<billycina> what is it?
<dinda> 0/  means waving
<dinda> So what does Canonical offer in the way of training and certifications?
<dinda> Great question!  I'll cover both our current offerings and planned offerings but would also love to hear your thoughts on potential courses and certification strategies.
<dinda> Our current offerings include: the Desktop Course for end users, the Ubuntu Certified Professional for Sys Admins and now. . .
<dinda> Deploying Ubuntu Server for advanced System Admins
<rw> is the sabdfl Q and A over or does it still has to start?
<dinda> rw: that was on Tuesday - it got moved
<dinda> The Ubuntu Desktop Course available in both classroom and eLearning formats.
<rw> oh well, maybe on the next release
<dinda>  The classroom version of the course was developed in conjunction with the community and is available under the NC-SA-CC license for any Loco team, non-profit or other group to download and use to teach others.  You can find that course here:
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
<dinda> The eLearning version of the course is available through the Canonical shop at:
<dinda> https://shop.canonical.com
<dinda> It is a self-paced course and you receive access to the materials for a full year so you can go back and review any topics at any time.
<dinda> Next in the line of courses is the revised Ubuntu Certified Professional Program.  The UCP is a week long classroom course being offered by our partners.
<dinda> The course covers all the basics for System Administrators.
<dinda> The course is partial preparation to sit for the Ubuntu 199 exam.  The 199 exam is a follow on to the LPI (Linux Professional Institute) 1 & 2 exams.  You must pass all three exams to be UCP certified and you can take the exams in any order.
<dinda> It is also recommended that you have at least six months active experience as a System Administrator.  More info on the exam can be found at:
<dinda> http://www.ubuntu.com/training/exams
<dinda> Partners are standing by ready to take your orders for this course!
<dinda> If you have any questions on the UCP program please paste them into the chat channel.
 * genii calls the 1-800 number
<dinda> :)  We just got orders for a course in Brazil with our partner Fuctura so we're excited to see that happen.
<Guest44920> are there any courses been giving in belgium ?
<dinda> Fuctura also reports that sales of the desktop course are great.
<dinda> An eLearning version of the course will be available this summer so stay tuned for more announcements.
<dinda> Guest44920: you can check the ubuntu.com/training site to find a local partner
<dinda> billycina: do you happen to know which partner would cover Belguim?
<billycina> guest44920: we are signing up a Dutch partner who will also provide training in Belgium
<yoshi_k> would be nice
<dinda> The topics in that course include: Installation, Desktop Deployment, Community & Support, LAMP. Mail, Printing, File Servers and Security.
<dinda> Everything you need to get a small to medium-sized organization up and running on the System Admin side.
<dinda> More info on that course adn the 199 certification can be found at:  http://www.ubuntu.com/training/certificationcourses
<dinda> And finally our newest course in the lineup is the Deploying Ubuntu Server course.
<yoshi_k> suggestion: include ltsp and terminal server setup and maintance also in the server training our as a seperate module
<dinda> We just completed our pilot for this course and are ready to offer it to the general public through the Canonical Shop.
<dinda> https://shop.canonical.com
<dinda> yoshi_k: I believe terminal server setup is covered in our Server course but nothing with ltsp at the moment
<dinda> The Server course is an all online course, live, instructor led via videoconferencing.
<dinda> The course includes access to our live virtual lab environment so you don't even need a local server or servers. We provide you access to a small virtual server farm to test and run labs and try to break and fix. You can do the entire course from your workplace or home.
<dinda> The Server course is for intermediate to advanced System Administrators and covers such topics as:
<dinda> Installation, Debian Package Management,
<dinda> Visturalisation & Deployment, Security, Integrity & Performance,
<dinda> Directory Services & Authentication
<dinda> If that sounds like your idea of fun then come on down to your local Canonical Shop and sign up!
<dinda> If you just really love the idea of sitting in a classroom and want an excuse to be away from your desk for a week then starting in June this course will also be offered by our training partners.
<dinda> And since we have collected the best instructors in the whole world all just waiting to answer your tough questions this is a great opportunity to ask the really hard questions like "How do I get a qemu virtual machine to do a PXE boot"?
<dinda> and don't get me started on Automated Deployments - oy vey!
<dinda> So those are the current offerings - what's coming up next you ask?
<dinda> Well, how about Cloud Computing and Switching from Red Hat/CentOS to Ubuntu and tons of micro-training offerings like. . .
<dinda>  Ubuntu for Cable and other ISP installers, Using an Ubuntu machine to take online courses and whatever else might be helpful to make using and buying Ubuntu systems a breeze.
<dinda> If you have ideas please send them to us via tour mailing list at Ubuntu-training-community@lists.ubuntu.com  or join us in #ubuntu-training.
<dinda> You can also now follow our tweets at Ubuntu_Training.
<dinda> One final thing on certification.  We are in the process of creating an entire certification stratgey similar to other professional programs.
<dinda> We would very much like to have your input as to the types of programs you would like to see like a Security Specialist or Ubuntu Certified Developer or other.  If you have any thoughts, again please send them to the mailing list or find me in the IRC channel.
<dinda> And finally, the new Ubuntu Learning Project is now up and running!
<dinda> They would like your help in creating quality content for end users and potential contributors.
<dinda> They are trying to be a framework for the entire community including the MOTU school, the Beginners Team on the Forums, the Doc Team and even Edubuntu and Loco Teams.
<dinda> Their next meeting is May 9 in #ubuntu-meeting @ 2100 UTC.  More info on the team and how to get involved can be found on their wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<dinda> Is Matthew Lye around?  Vantrax
<billycina> Belinda Lopez: don't see him
<dinda> Okay, so that's the basics of what we are working on.
<yoshi_k> nice dinda, looks promising
<dinda> We also have some programs for OEMS/ODMS and Support so if you happen to be in that category just contact us.
<dinda> So. . .  questions?
<billycina> (20:10:15) hemanth: Question : Ubuntu Desktop Course 9.04 ??
<dinda> billycina: anything to add?
<billycina> Belinda Lopez: nope - good job!
<billycina> i will paste questions :)
<dinda> hemanth: Right now we're only focusing on LTS . . .
<dinda> we thought about interim updates but it's really hard to keep on top of all the little changes
<billycina> 20:11:06) doctormo: Question: If the learning project decides to not allow NC licensed materials, would there still be room for collaberation?
<dinda> so we find that even if a course is based on an older release the material is still valid except in minor cases
<dinda> oh great - billy tosses me the licensging questions!
<billycina> :)
<dinda> doctormo: we're exploring all options for the desktop course licensing and I know the Learning Team has licensing on their agenda for the next meeting
<dinda> Even if the materials are NC that is often very hard to enforce
<dinda> so as it is a community-based effort, that team will have to decide on the licensing for their project
<billycina> (20:12:13) sebsebseb: QUESTION:  How to get a job at Canonical  doing consumer/homeuser suppourt, and I assume business/servers?   Would I have to like study for LP1 first and an  Ubuntu qualification or something?
<dinda> sebsebseb: The LPI and Ubuntu 199 are a great way to show that you're serious about skills
<dinda> Certification is often a short cut that shows a certain level of competency.
<dinda> By the end of the year all Canonical Support Persons will be 199 certified!
<dinda> or so we've been promised by their boss :)
<billycina> (20:14:11) pleia2: QUESTION: What is the release date of the "Ubuntu Desktop Course - Official Book" in the store? Does it cover 8.04? If not, will a revision be made available in the near future?
<sebsebseb> dinda: as  far as I know LPI can be studyed at home, and then go somewhere for exams, not sure about the Ubuntu qaulification
<dinda> the current desktop course is indeed based on 8.04 LTS
<dinda> sebsebseb: exactly, you can self-study or take a course or buy books to help you prepare
<dinda> pleia2: We're looking at updating the Desktop materials for the next LTS. . .
<dinda> You can buy the book in the Canonical shop
<dinda> it's already there for purchase
<billycina> (20:29:24) hemanth: Question: When will Canonical shop for local currency come up ?  I mean no  $  or Euro conversions for non-US/UK countries
<dinda> The PDF download is on our wiki
<dinda> billycina: you want to chime in on that one?
<billycina> sure
<billycina> hemanth: I don't believe there are such plans.
<jtholmes> charlie-tca, u on next or did u just put it together
<hemanth> billycina: ok
<billycina> hemanth: we have  uk based and US based stores which between them cover all the planet
<billycina> the u.s. store is new
<billycina> specially opened to make shipping costs much cheaper
<hemanth> billycina: but say for example India , has huge population
<billycina> hemanth: sure - so do china and brazil :)
<hemanth> billycina: would it not be more profitable to setup shops here
<billycina> hemanth: perhaps, but i personally have no idea of the infrastructure implications / requirements
<hemanth> billycina: ok , if there are people interested in helping for that how can they ?
 * billycina goes searching for the relevant contact, will be back in a moment
<billycina> more questions in the meantime?
<billycina> hemanth: https://shop.canonical.com/contact_us.php
<dinda> They're speechless
<billycina> :)
<yoshi_k> :)
<hemanth> billycina: thank you :)
<dinda> doctormo: was inquiring about the licensing issue again
<billycina> np
<dinda> Just like there is professional paid for support and community support. . .
<dinda> we have Professional paid for training
<dinda> we've never stopped anyone from developing community-based training
<dinda> and are indeed doing all we can to support those efforts
<dinda> once we get to see some of what is being developed by the community we'll be happy to help point the learn.ubuntu.com subdomain to them
<dinda> They are still in the process of getting going but anyone is free to join them and collaborate on their efforts
<billycina> they do have some great ideas on how to promote ubuntu through free education
<billycina> and would be a great team to join for anyone who has experience in training
<billycina> both instructing and writing materials
<dinda> one main area I'd really love to see the community develop is more of the "how to contribute" materials
<yoshi_k> have to go people thanks and great job, we will surely contact the learning team later also the training team we are in the middle of setting up training and support in belgium for terminal server projects and migration from windows to linux env.
<dinda> I would love to see regular MOTU courses and Doc Team courses to help new folks work through those processes
<dinda> Mentoring is great but often not scalable now that the community continues to grow so regular classes would be great
<billycina> bye yoshi_k
<dinda> any suggestions on future courses?  certifications?
<hemanth> dinda : nothing in particular as of now
<dinda> ok, great
<dinda> Thanks everyone!
<billycina> thanks Belinda Lopez
<dinda> don't forget about the upcoming Learning Team meeting on May 9
<dayo> thank you
<hemanth> thank you billycina and dinda
<nixternal> thanks bigbrovar_ and dinda!
<nixternal> err, thanks billycina and dinda ... silly autocomplete
* nixternal changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1800 UTC: Xubuntu QA  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nixternal> ausimage: YOU ROCK!!!
<ausimage> :-$
<nixternal> the logs on the wiki, you are super quick :) thanks a ton for that!
<ausimage> np
<dayo> nixternal: lol, u've just confused the hell out of my colleague
<nixternal> sorry about that :)
<nixternal> tell um you will buy him as much beer as he wants after work :)
<nixternal> charlie-tca: here is your 3 minute notice :D
<JPohlmann> charlie-tca: Have fun :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> Thanks, nixternal
<nixternal> Ladies and gentlement, for those in attendance, and the millions watching around the world.....LETS GET READY FOR XUBUNTU!!!!
<nixternal> I can speel!
<knome> good for you, nixternal
<charlie-tca> Thank you, nixternal
<charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead.
<charlie-tca> We are going to talk a bit about Marketing, Testing, and Bugs in Xubuntu. We will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and
<charlie-tca> will have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to. Feel free to ask questions at any time, but start them with QUESTION:
<charlie-tca> so they easy to spot
<charlie-tca> For example, QUESTION: What is Xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> The answer would then be
<charlie-tca> ubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.
<knome> *Xubuntu is
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that too. Missed that X
<charlie-tca> As a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
<charlie-tca> Also, Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions, and ports for the Mac PowerPC and Sony PlayStation 3.
<charlie-tca> And, since Xubuntu is a dirivative of Ubuntu, we use the same repositories, and many of the same applications
<charlie-tca> Along with producing those versions comes testing to make sure the distribution actually works. The goal is to have each image tested thoroughly before release. Being a small group, that becomes difficult at times.
<knome> *derivative
<charlie-tca> To accomplish this testing, almost any hardware will work. If you don't have spare hardware, you can test in a virtual machine. VMware, VirtualBox, and KVM can all be used to test software.
<charlie-tca> Some of the testing must also be done on hardware. I personnally favor a PIII myself. I do not use any restricted drivers, and normally get 1400x900 resolution out of these machines. The cpu is only 866MHz.
<charlie-tca> To help insure Xubuntu is lightweight and functional, testing is done using a PII, also. It is a 400MHz cpu with 256MB ram. This system insures the latest version still works using minumum hardware.
<charlie-tca> Tests are run using both the desktop/live cd and the alternate cd with both systems, and even with 128MB and 192MB ram in the PII. This helps let the developers know what the minumums are that actually work.
<charlie-tca> I am one of those people that really believe the stated minimums should be real! If I can't run what the minumums say, I question it. Granted, I don't expect perfect performance from it, but I should be able to use the system.
<charlie-tca> Using Xubuntu, I expect to be able to run the applications provided, one at a time with the minumum hardware. As the hardware increases, I would expect the performance to increase.
<knome> That's what the what the complete Xubuntu team thinks.
<charlie-tca> Thanks to the hard work by Ubuntu, the startup times have decreased remarkably, even with low-end hardware.
<charlie-tca> We have information on the xubuntu developers wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo for testing Xubuntu. Since it is Xfce-based, many of the tests are unique to Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu testing team is https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers on launchpad. As testing and QA lead, I try to keep the test cases up to date on both QA and Xubuntu wikis.
<charlie-tca> I do send out notices to the the xubuntu-testers launchpad team when a milestone is ready to be tested. More testers are always welcome.
<charlie-tca> We maintain a test case for daily images, to allow a quick test to be done. There is a test used for the liveCD testing and neither test should take more than 5-10 minutes to complete.
<charlie-tca> Admittedly, it does take a little more time on the PII then on more modern equipment.
<charlie-tca> We also maintain a longer, more involved test for milestone releases. This allows more thorough testing before the users get the image.
<charlie-tca> This test is just as important as the short tests, since it does test all the applications and settings
<charlie-tca> When testing the images, results are reported on the qa tracker. This allows the Ubuntu QA team to know the images are good or bad, also. Any bugs found in testing need to be reported so that the developers know what the current issues are.
<charlie-tca> At this time, I think we will let knome step in and say a few words
<knome> OK, so quality assurance is more than just making sure that applications work
<knome> It's also about letting out the best artwork for our users
<knome> In Xubuntu, we have some guidelines for artwork which can be found in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Guidelines
<knome> For every release. we also make some kind of general directions, which we try to follow as good as we can in the time we have
<knome> Anyway, since I began the Xubuntu Marketing Lead, I've been keen on keeping consistency around the Xubuntu artwork
<knome> That means we use the latest logo everywhere and try to get any page with the old logo updated, even if we don't have the permissions ourselves.
<knome> A developer reported to me that he has become a great distunguished between the new and old logo ;)
<knome> In addition to that, I prefer vector graphics in anything we do.
<knome> For example, the complete Jaunty artwork cycle is in SVG, excluding the "mist" in the images.
<knome> The final judgement and approval on artwork of course relies on the (developer) community or me as the Marketing Lead, but anything that is consistent with rest of the release cycle artwork should be OK.
<knome> You are welcome to submit your artwork and marketing ideas!
<knome> Now I'll pass the ball back to charlie-tca. Thanks for listening
<charlie-tca> QUESTION: What effect does using vector graphics and SVG format have compared to the old png files?
<knome> Right.
<knome> As we do our graphics in vector, it leads to artwork reusability and flexibility.
<knome> Anyone can take the file and edit it further.
<knome> Anyone can modify it relatively easily.
<charlie-tca> Thank you, knome
<charlie-tca> Any other questions at this time?
<hemanth> nope
<charlie-tca> Well, lets cover a little about bugs, then.
<charlie-tca> We report bugs found through launchpad. They can be reported at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+filebug . I do much of the bug triage for Xubuntu, and most of our bugs in Xfce are forwarded upstream.
<charlie-tca> We do verify a number of the bugs reported to Xfce from other sources.
<charlie-tca> We work very close with upstream xfce, abiword and gnumeric bug teams to help resolve the bugs found. Once you report a bug, it goes through a process called bug triage. Bug triage is simply the process of determining that there is a bug, how important is the bug to the overall scheme, and is there enough information for a developer to resolve the bug.
<charlie-tca> You will find that I often triage the Xfce, AbiWord, and Gnumeric bugs for this reason. I am also the bugsquad contact for these bugs.
<sebsebseb> Abiword :)
<charlie-tca> We will work very closely to the Ubuntu bugsquad when triaging, and follow the guidelines set in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage. A very important idea in triaging is that just because only one person had a failure, that does not make it invalid.
<charlie-tca> <rufong> QUESTION:do some de-bugging tools work better than others with xfce/xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> I use the same tools as the bugsquad. The procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures work very well.
<charlie-tca> One thing is to learn to use strace. Most of the gnumeric developers will request a backtrace, which we have under strace in the procedures
<charlie-tca> <hemanth> QUESTION : Default file browser ??
<charlie-tca> Xfce comes with Thunar instead of Nautilus for a file manager. Most functions are the same.
<charlie-tca> <hemanth> QUESTION : How can I downgrade from ubuntu to xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> We actually prefer to call that an upgrade!
<knome> ;)
<charlie-tca> You can run both gnome and xfce desktop environments by install "xubuntu-desktop" to Ubuntu.
<sebsebseb> heh heh,  well people can have,  Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu, all in the  same install
<charlie-tca> <drostie> QUESTION: When I asked the Kubuntu dev who spoke a couple days ago about what sets KDE apart from the other environments, he pointed to its shininess. How do we make Xubuntu shinier?
<knome> We make Xubuntu shinier by a fantastic Marketing team!
<knome> We are emphasizing on the artwork on the next release and pushing out completely new GTK, GDM, wallpaper, etc. themes.
<charlie-tca> We don't actually aim for "shininess". We would prefer to know the artwork is the best of all, and that you can use Xubuntu on your hardware.
<knome> That too. It's a combination of good-lookingness and working on low-end artwork.
<charlie-tca> When you, as a user, file a bug on launchpad, it goes through several stages. Somebody is going to review the bug report. The first person to review will decide if the report is filed to the correct package, and if there is enough information for the developers.
<charlie-tca> <BobJonkman> QUESTION: Does Xubuntu have LTS releases like mainstream Ubuntu?
<charlie-tca> Since we are an Ubuntu derivative, we use the same release schedule as Ubuntu. We did release 8.04 as an LTS version
<BobJonkman> tkx
<charlie-tca> At this time, if Ubuntu 10.04 releases as an LTS, we plan to release Xubuntu LTS also.
<charlie-tca> Part of the review of the bug is an attempt to reproduce the bug in the latest version of Xubuntu. If the developers have fixed the issue in the latest development version, it is normally much easier to fix in an earlier version.
<charlie-tca> <nixternal> charlie-tca: QUESTION: How do you contribute the success and awesomeness that is Xubuntu when, like Kubuntu, you have a small deverloper community consisting of mostly volunteers?
<charlie-tca> Excellent question, nixternal
<nixternal> s/contribute/attribute
 * knome shouts PASSION
<charlie-tca> Our volunteers are very passionate about Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> They spend considerable time working to create the best possible OS they can, and the results do reflect that.
<cody-somerville> Its helps that the Ubuntu base is so awesome to work with in the first place too
<charlie-tca> That is correct. Thanks, cody-somerville
<charlie-tca> We also have really good leadership in Xubuntu.
<knome> yayyyy for cody-somerville
<charlie-tca> <sebsebseb> QUESTION: Isn't their a  later version of XFCE in development?  The version group in  Xubuntu has been there for years it seems.
<knome> Just a quick note before someone really answers this: Xubuntu Jaunty comes with 4.6 and not with the "old" 4.4.x
<charlie-tca> One of reasons for that is because Xfce version numbers are at 4.
<charlie-tca> The versions are updating as Xfce updates. Hardy had 4.2, Intrepid 4.2 and 4.3
<charlie-tca> Now we have 4.6.0 in Jaunty
<rufong> agreed, installed xubu today from livecd, no problems
<charlie-tca> When 4.8.0 is ready for release, we will include that in Xubuntu.
<knome> QUESTION:  When is XFCE 5.0?
<charlie-tca> Whenever Xfce gets to 5.0, I would think. The next release planned is 4.8
<knome> Maybe 2020.
<sebsebseb> ok  thanks guys you answered my two release questions
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<JPohlmann> Next planned after 4.8 is 4.10 and so on.
<charlie-tca> Okay, we had a great session yesterday on bug reporting. Xubuntu uses the same reporting tools as Ubuntu.
<JPohlmann> Similar to the versioning of GLib and GTK+ (2.10, 2.12, 2.14 ...)
<charlie-tca> You can review those tools by reading the session logs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/BugReports
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: yeah and Kubuntu will use the same bug reporting stuff to, I assume
<charlie-tca>  QUESTION: How do you have time and passion to test all those alphas, betas and whatever with your low-end hardware?
<charlie-tca> Kubuntu is not the same, I can speak for their processes
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu and Ubuntu are both GTK based, which makes working with the tools easier. Kubuntu is KDE based, instead of GTK
<charlie-tca> which won't always allow the same tools.
 * cody-somerville notes that KDE based means it uses QT instead of GTK.
<charlie-tca> That's the missing works, thanks
<knome> Qt, not QT?
<knome> :P
<nixternal> knome:  is correct, and it is pronounced "Cute" :)
<nixternal> not Q T
<charlie-tca> I have time and passion for testing because I really enjoy doing it. I hope that by doing that, I can contribute a little back to a
<charlie-tca> OS that has given me so much.
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: and great community :)
<charlie-tca> indeed, a truly great community that makes it a joy to spend time helping.
<charlie-tca> <Rafik_> QUESTION : How/Where to start with the Xubuntu Team ? (Interested in web site and marketing contribution)
<knome> Join #xubuntu-devel and contact knome. Oh wait, that's me...
<knome> :)
<charlie-tca> Getting started with Xubuntu is easy and fun! For the average user, you can get help and support through either #xubuntu on Freenode or the xubuntu users mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users. We're a friendly bunch and enjoy helping folks :-)
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu comes ready to use on any equipment. It gives excellent performance with no loss of applications.
<charlie-tca> New users are often surprised to find that Xubuntu includes a number of gnome applications. These are included simply because if an application works well, and is considered lightweight, it fits. Any application can be included, and it does not matter if it starts with gnome, xfce, or anything other letters.
<charlie-tca> AbiWord and Gnumeric instead of OpenOffice.org are included as default applications in Xubuntu, so we handle most of the Gnumeric and AbiWord bugs too, since those are the default applications. They are both very powerful for the user, yet lightweight.
<knome> If you want to join the *developer* team, there is #xubuntu-devel and there is also the developer mailing list, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: yeah Abiword is awsome and my favourite word proccessor
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu Jaunty 9.04 does have Xfce 4.6 included, which has many improvements over 4.4. The menus are freedesktop.org compliant now.
<charlie-tca> The volume control is based on GStreamer 0.10 now. Since the new xfce4-mixer uses gstreamer, it no longer has to maintain code for different sound architectures like alsa, esd, etc. Gstreamer takes care of it. Xubuntu does not ship with pulse audio enabled.
<charlie-tca> The developers have included gigolo, to make networking and sharing files simpler than ever.
<charlie-tca> <gregknicholson> QUESTION: For people used to Gnome/Ubuntu, what are the main differences in UI/user experience in Xfce/Xubuntu? What takes the longest to get used to?
<charlie-tca> Great question.
<charlie-tca> I think the fact that Xfce is not Gnome takes time to learn. There is always a learning curve.
<charlie-tca> New users find that it is not as simple as Gnome to do things. Sometimes the command line must be used instead of a GUI.
<charlie-tca> File sharing could be improved, since it is not as easy as using Nautilus.
<JPohlmann> The settings dialogs are very different to those from GNOME in some regards.
<JPohlmann> So it's sometimes difficult to find a certain setting.
<sebsebseb> yeah the default menus are differnet here and there
<charlie-tca> As part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!
* nixternal changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1900 UTC: Intro to the Ubuntu-News Team  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for being here.
<nixternal> thanks charlie-tca and thanks to the entire Xubuntu community, great job!
<nixternal> ...
<sebsebseb> I'll second that :)
<nixternal> The next topic will be Ubuntu News Team with John Crawford, the guy who fixed the mess I helped create a couple of years ago....so without further ado, I bring you the one, the only, John Crawford!!!
<johnc4510> nixternal: thx :)
<nixternal> APPLAUSE: Everyone chear!
<johnc4510> Hello everyone. Who loves Ubuntu?
<johnc4510> w00t
<johnc4510> My name is John Crawford(johnc4510), I live in Tucson, AZ USA, and I spend most of my free time doing volunteer work in the Ubuntu Community. Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~johnc4510 Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnCrawford
<johnc4510> I am involved with several teams in the Ubuntu Community, but today I'm here as the chief editor of the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter and an editor for The Fridge.
<johnc4510> I'll start off by giving you our news-team resources:
<johnc4510> Launchpad: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-news
<johnc4510> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam
<johnc4510> IRC Channel: #ubuntu-news on irc.freenode.net
<johnc4510> Mailing List: ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<johnc4510> Here are the projects that the Ubuntu News Team is reponsible for are:
<johnc4510> The Fridge: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge
<johnc4510> The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<johnc4510> Joining our team is a great way to contribute and get involved in the Ubuntu Community. Not everyone using Ubuntu has the ability to develop, package or translate.
<johnc4510> There are however, many things a non-technical person can do to contribute to our team, and the Ubuntu Community.
<johnc4510> We'll start out today talking about The Fridge.
<johnc4510> The Fridge: wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge and our website: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
<johnc4510> The Fridge is the official news site for the Ubuntu Community. The items reported in The Fridge are considered breaking news about Ubuntu and our community.
<johnc4510> The scope of The Fridge is narrower than the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, which we will be discussing later
<johnc4510> We concentrate on breaking Ubuntu and community news. Howto's, most blogging content about installing or configuring applications, etc are not considered appropriate Fridge material.
<johnc4510> Now, even though The Fridge is considered the official news source for Ubuntu and our community, anyone can submit ideas for content.
<johnc4510> It's very easy to do, just drop into #ubuntu-news, or send an email to the teams mailing list. ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<johnc4510> If your Ubuntu project is doing great things, and you'd like the greater Ubuntu Community to know more about it, simply write it up and submit it.
<johnc4510> Please don't feel like you don't have the talent to write something up, you know the facts, and we can help polish it if needed.
<johnc4510> The Fridge is widely read not only by our community, but also by many big name news reporting agencies, and popular blog sites.
<johnc4510> These outside reporting agencies often quote our content which increases Ubuntu's exposure. The more exposure we get, the more it helps to promote Ubuntu and our community.
<johnc4510> The Fridge editors administer the site, and approve news content.
<johnc4510> We are always looking for news content to add to the site to further promote Ubuntu and our community.
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<johnc4510> What your team is doing is important to the project, and by helping us to report it you'll be doing you part to advocate Ubuntu, and fix bug #1!
<johnc4510> Join our team, or keep us informed if you're on another team that is doing fantastic Ubuntu work.
<johnc4510> also our events calendar is at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<johnc4510> this calendar shows all events within the community that are reported
<johnc4510> it's a great way to keep up with the other teams in the Ubuntu community
<johnc4510> instructions for the calendar are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<johnc4510> we encourage everyone to help us keep the calendar up to date
<johnc4510> and to help advocate for Ubuntu and our community by keeping us informed of what your team is up to
<johnc4510> Ok, lets move onto the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter now. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<johnc4510> The UWN is a totally different news reporting outlet than The Fridge. It covers a much wider section of news than The Fridge does.
<johnc4510> The UWN is a weekly publication that you could compare to your Sunday paper.
<johnc4510> The idea is to report Community news, projects and also what is being said about Ubuntu out there in cyber space.
<johnc4510> QUESTION: how did the fridge get it's name
<johnc4510> lol, that's a good one...i'm not sure i know...but i would suspect it comes from someones humorous idea of notes posted on a refrigerator
<knome> or things that are fresh
<johnc4510> right
<johnc4510> :)
<johnc4510> maybe nixternal or boredandblogging would know, they've been around longer
<johnc4510> ?
<johnc4510> Sometimes that news isn't always favorable, but our publication is here to keep the community up to date with what's being said, good or bad.
<nixternal> sure, Benjamin Mako Hill actually came up with the name at like the first UDS iirc
<nixternal> he called it that because it was a spot to stick up little snippets pertaining to Ubuntu
<johnc4510> nixternal: thx for bailing me out there :)
<nixternal> hehe, no problem
<nixternal> the original spec for the Fridge is still on the wiki somewhere
<johnc4510> Since we publish a totally new edition every week, that means we start every week with a clean slate.
<johnc4510> That gives us only one week to research, read, classify by section, summarize, refine, proof and publish a new edition.
<johnc4510> We publish the edition, or links to it in serveral places.
<johnc4510> Ubuntu Forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=243
<johnc4510> Planet Ubuntu: http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<johnc4510> The Fridge: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
<johnc4510> By subcription to our ubuntu-news mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-news
<johnc4510> And we also publish a teaser to dig, readit, Free Software News, and UbuntuPoint.
<johnc4510> After we publish a new edition, we set up the next edition's wiki page, and start the process all over again for the next week.
<johnc4510> We gather stories from many different sources: RSS feeds of major open source news reporting websites, searching google for blog items of interest, reading countless Ubuntu mailing list archives, keeping up with Planet Ubuntu, Launchpad, #ubuntu-meeting, etc.
<johnc4510> We also get a lot on input from you, the Ubuntu Community. People often drop into the #ubuntu-news channel, email our ubuntu-news-team mailing list, or catch us in any one of a dozen channels our team members help to populate.
<johnc4510> So as you can see, we are a very busy team working to keep up with all the great things going on in the greater Ubuntu Community, and what's being said about Ubuntu all over the world.
<johnc4510> QUESTION: how guided are those poplulations
<johnc4510> rufong: i'm not sure what your asking...can you rephrase?
<johnc4510> QUESTION: rufong i mean did you have specific channels targeted to help spread /launch unbuntunews
<johnc4510> rufong: we try to publish our newsletter to sites that have a rather large following in the open source community
<johnc4510> the more people who read our publication the better
<johnc4510> The Ubuntu distribution speaks for itself as far as quality goes
<johnc4510> but it's up to the community to spread the word to the rest of the world
<johnc4510> rufong: does that answer your question?
<johnc4510> From time to time we do an interview of an especially prominent team or individual in the Ubuntu Community.
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<johnc4510> After picking a subject to interview, we usually email them asking if they would be interested in answering some questions about themselves and/or their project.
<johnc4510> We then collaborate to decide what questions the community might want answered and email them to the person.
<johnc4510> Interviews are published as is and can help to promote what that individual or team is doing.
<johnc4510> So if you know an individual or team that is making a difference within the greater Ubuntu Community, let us know so that we can share that with everyone.
<johnc4510> Anyone can join our team, or submit links.
<johnc4510> Unlike The Fridge where you need to submit news items anyone can add links to the wiki page of the next edition of the UWN.
<johnc4510> You'll always find the edition that is being worked on here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter listed under the sub-header: Next Issue(Work in Progress)
<johnc4510> The wiki page of the next edition has sections that make it fairly easy to decide where your link should go.
<johnc4510> sections like: General Community News is for Ubuntu announcements
<johnc4510> LoCo news is for reporting on the events for the Ubuntu LoCo teams project
<johnc4510> lanuchpad is for launchpad news
<johnc4510> etc
<johnc4510> you should find a section
<johnc4510> If you confused about what section to add it too, you can always ask in #ubuntu-news, or submit your link by email to our team at: ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<johnc4510> I have been working on the UWN for almost 2 years now. During that time, Ubuntu and our community has continued to grow at an astounding rate.
<johnc4510> For our team, it is easy to see this growth because the size and scope of our publication has had to grow to keep up with the ever expanding array of quality material we find each week.
<johnc4510> With this growth, we are also now starting to see constant news, blog, and community news items every week, allowing us to pick and choose from the best articles available.
<johnc4510> Expansion and growth means that our team is experiencing new and exciting challenges each week, and that helps to keep us fresh and eager to report the news.
<johnc4510> Unlike many Ubuntu teams, who might have 6 months to get their project ready, we have to have a finished product ready to go every week.
<johnc4510> It's challenging, rewarding, and hard work. It's a new and fresh experience every week, and we love it!!
<johnc4510> We have a great team of workers who are dedicated to publishing the lastest news about Ubuntu and our community.
<johnc4510> Working on the UWN is a great way to contribute to the Ubuntu Project, and our community.
<johnc4510> Our publication is widely read, highly regarded, and often linked to or quoted by large open source news site and blogs.
<johnc4510> Anyone wanting to join our team should visit #ubuntu-news, or email me at johnc4510@ubuntu.com
<johnc4510> We would be very happy to have you join our team to help us keep the Ubuntu Community and the world, up to date on the latest and greatest news about our favorite operating system "Ubuntu."
<johnc4510> It's a very rewarding way to contribute,and a great way to get recognized within the community.
<johnc4510> QUESTION: What are the requirments to join the team?
<johnc4510> charlie-tca: anyone can join...just drop by our launchpad team and sign up Launchpad: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-news
<johnc4510> after doing that drop by the #ubuntu-news channel and chat with us
<johnc4510> :)
<johnc4510> since we are a weekly publication, dependency is a must, and basic english is needed
<johnc4510> we have a tight schedule to hit each week, so we need folks that aren't afraid to get in there and work each wk
<johnc4510> :)
<johnc4510> QUESTION: Does the CofC influence our writing?
<johnc4510> It sure does, as with all Ubuntu teams we adhere very strickly to the CofC
<johnc4510> I hope everyone got a good feel for what the Ubuntu-News Team is all about during this session today. Whether or not our team is the right fit for you, I hope you'll find some way to contribute back to the Ubuntu project.
<ball> s/monopole/monopoly/
<johnc4510> Of note, we also are starting to carry more podcast links in the edition
<sebsebseb> ball: wrong channel?
 * ball nods
<johnc4510> it has become a very popular media outlet
<johnc4510> 2 in particular are the Ubuntu-UK podcast the Ubuntu podcast that nick and josh do
<johnc4510> QUESTION: Does the CofC cause us any conflict in reporting stories?
<johnc4510> no, we try to keep the community informed about everything that is being said about Ubuntu
<johnc4510> unless the story is totally off base, contains fowl language etc we will carry it
<johnc4510> QUESTION: can the UWN have a more useful rss feed...containing the articles instead of just a feed of the issue
<johnc4510> the feed is set up to come off the planet i believe...and we don't publish the whole edition to the planet
<jcastro> 5 minute warning
<johnc4510> jcastro: thx
<johnc4510> in closing, we have a great team that works very hard to keep everyone informed about Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community
<johnc4510> if you have an interest in helping out we would love to have you
<johnc4510> thanks for listening and submitting your question...it's been great fun
* nixternal changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2000 UTC: How To Triage Bugs in Ubuntu  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nixternal> thanks a gon johnc4510, great job!
<johnc4510> jcastro: nixternal thx :)
<nixternal> the next topic will be "How To Triage Bugs in Ubuntu" presented by Pedro Villavicencio....he should be here shortly unless I missed him come in
<pedro_> I'm already here since a few hours ;-)
<nixternal> oh, there he his
<pedro_> let's roll then!
<nixternal> alright then, here is my awesome introduction then :)
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> En vivo desde el Aula de Ubuntu canal de IRC en todas las ciudades de todo el mundo, para los cientos de asistentes y los millones viendo en todo el mundo, seÃ±oras y seÃ±ores, prepÃ¡rate para triage algunos errores! En la esquina roja tenemos el campeÃ³n reinante, Pedro Villavicencio, que serÃ¡ la enseÃ±anza a todos ustedes la forma de "triage" errores en Ubuntu. Si esto es masacrados, pido disculpas y la culpa en Google.
<nixternal> ....
<nixternal> the floor is yours sir :)
<pedro_> lol!
<pedro_> Google did a great work haha
<nixternal> that's a first :)
<sebsebseb> nixternal: how about in English? :)
<pedro_> ok folks as nixternal said my name is Pedro Villavicencio I'm from the lovely Chile and I work for Canonical , my primary focus is on the Ubuntu Desktop Bugs
<pedro_> I'll introduce you to the BugSquad and How to Triage Bugs in Ubuntu
<pedro_> The Ubuntu BugSquad is the first point of contact for the Bugs filed in Ubuntu, we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by the developers/maintainers
<pedro_> (btw feel free to ask on ubuntu-classroom-chat i'll pick questions from there later)
<pedro_> how we do that? We do something called "Triage" which is a pretty similar process to the one of prioritizing patients based on the severity of their condition
<pedro_> Working with the BugSquad it's an excellent way to start helping and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
<pedro_> And No, you don't need any programming knowledge to join the team in fact it's a great way to return something to your lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
<pedro_> There's an open team on Launchpad for the BugSquad https://launchpad.net/~bugsquad everybody can join as said it's an open team
<pedro_> We also have a couple of IRC Channels that you might be interested on visit:
<pedro_> Where the bugs are discussed: #ubuntu-bugs
<pedro_> Where the new bugs are announced:  #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<pedro_> There's also a mailing list available at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad and we use it for all kind of coordination and discussions
<pedro_> if you want to interact with the team those are the right ways to do it
<pedro_> <komputes> pedro_: Question: How can we possibly deal with a large number of bugs that have been reported upstream with no action for a few years. What is a good strategy to either having volunteer or paid developers resolves these issues and propose patch
<pedro_> well that's not easy, you can either talk with the upstream developers and let them know you concerns or provide patches to get those bugs fixed
<pedro_> in free software the people do what they want ;-) and most of people participating on free software projects are volunteers
<pedro_> btw there's a talk about Upstream Bug Workflow after mine you might want to bring those questions there as well ;-)
<pedro_> ok let's go to the bug triage !
<pedro_> The Bug Triage is an essential part of the Ubuntu's development process which consists of a few things
<pedro_> Responding to new bugs as they are filed, if you report something you really want to get some feedback from the other side, responding to those bugs in a short period is pretty important
<pedro_> * Ensuring that new bugs contains all the necessary information for the developers/maintainers to work on it and fix that bug
<pedro_> This could look like normal to you and probably you do include that information when you're reporting a bug but most of the reports we got doesn't contain that information
<pedro_> we often triage reports with summaries like "I don't know!" - "It crashed!" - " Doesn't work"
<pedro_> which doesn't help a lot to the developers/triagers, so improving the summary is one of the things that should be done when you are fighting a bug report
<pedro_> having one with a summary like "brasero doesn't burn if the disc title contains a & " it's way better than something like "doesn't burn"
<pedro_> In order to get more information we have the debugging pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures which contains information on how to get more information for packages in Ubuntu like Firefox, OpenOffice.org, Apache, Samba, the Kernel, etc.
 * JManGt is back (gone 00:42:59)
<pedro_> QUESTION: How can we take care of doing a triage on a large number of new bugs without making the process seem automated, alienating and possibly invalidating or marking as a duplicate erroneously.
<pedro_> It's all based on the experience i think, in Ubuntu we indeed triage a *lot* of bugs daily, reading those carefully and if you're in doubt of doing something the best is to ask in the #ubuntu-bugs channel to avoid that kind of problems
<pedro_> so don't be afraid to ask
<pedro_> Ok, so New triagers often don't really know what to ask when they are taking care of a report
<pedro_> ie: the not described well with the "I don't know" titles or summaries, what do you ask there?
<pedro_> maybe a "could you describe this a bit further" would help?
<pedro_> for those kind of situations we've collecting Stock Responses
<pedro_>  which are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<pedro_> if you're looking for one that you could use to grab more info well look at the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Not%20described%20well response you can copy and paste it on the bug report
<pedro_> Another step into the Triage process is the:
<pedro_> * Assigning bugs to the proper package
<pedro_>  the list of bugs without a package is a bit big as today there are around ~1850 only New bug reports without a package assigned to it, http://tinyurl.com/withoutapackage
<pedro_> Almost all the bugs on that list need to be assigned to a package (they're waiting you to assign them!)
<pedro_>  this process is one of the easier tasks in the bug triage if you want to start doing triage you can probably start triaging them, want to know how to figure it out to which package assign the report? you can read the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage doc or ask on the #ubuntu-bugs channel
<pedro_> QUESTION: I'm glad you brought up debugging procedures. Having dealt with users of average computing expertise,  do you find that the instructions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures are too complicated for them, causing them to abandon the bug report rather than following through. What are you thoughts on this and how ubuntu-bug/ apport can bring automation of the debugging process?
<pedro_> this is a really good questions
<pedro_> It's true we get a lot of reports from users, normal users, probably not all of them know a lot of computers
<pedro_> and probably they're not going to understand how to get send the logs of Xorg even with the instructions we provide
<pedro_> and that's ok
<pedro_> that's why now we have this awesome tool "ubuntu-bug"
<pedro_> and I really, really, really, really recommend you to use it for reports bugs in Ubuntu
<pedro_> it collects everything automatically and you don't need to worry about nothing
<pedro_> oh well you need internet connection ;-)
<pedro_> but yes please use the ubuntu-bug tool and also apport to send your crashes to us
<pedro_> Let's keep going
<pedro_> * Confirming bug reports by trying to reproduce them
<pedro_> basically if you found a bug report that you can reproduce and the status is New then mark it as Confirmed stating on a comment why you're doing this if the report lack of information then add it and important, please do not confirm your own bug reports
<pedro_> QUESTION: How can bug triagers use "ubuntu-bug" or another tool to have the reporter send in more information?
<pedro_> good question, for existing bug reports you can send more information with apport-collect
<pedro_> example: apport-collect 12345
<pedro_> what the tool does, is to check the tasks on the bug report (12345) and run the apport hooks for that package
<pedro_> then it will attach all the info for that report, for example the Xorg.0.log, lspci, etc, etc
<pedro_> so if you're triaging a Xorg bug and it doesn't contain that info, ask the reporter to run that command ;-)
<pedro_> let's keep rolling
<pedro_> * Sending bugs to their upstream authors, when applicable
<pedro_> * Cross-referencing bugs from other distributions
<pedro_> those are really important tasks and as said previously, Jorge "Awesome" Castro is going to give a talk right after this one which is going to cover the Bug Upstream Workflow, if you're interested in that, stay here on the channel ;-)
<pedro_> so we're not going to cover that now
<pedro_> I've talked to you about some Bug Status already
<pedro_> you've heard about "New" and "Confirmed"
<Shriram> vow how long is the session , been running long time
<pedro_> Shriram: like two days!
<pedro_> They are 9 status for bug reports on Ubuntu they are:
<pedro_> New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<pedro_> don't be confused i know that some of you've been doing triage on Bugzilla for example and New means a totally different thing there
<pedro_> New: means that no one has triaged or confirmed the bug yet (for the bugzilla folks UNCONFIRMED)
<pedro_> Incomplete: means that the bug is missing some information for example a debugging backtrace of a crash or steps in order to trigger the bug (NEEDINFO on bz)
<Shriram> pedro_: vow, obviously with breaks right ?
<pedro_> Invalid: is set when the report doesn't have the adequate information to determine whether or not it's a bug, yes there's people reporting things like "a" and "e" on the summary or "test".
<pedro_> Confirmed: is almost self explanatory and we talked about it previously, someone else than the reporter have the same bug
<pedro_> remember, please, please please please do not confirm your own reports, a kitten die when you do that
<pedro_> Triaged: status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team (will talk about it later) when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fix the issue.
<pedro_> <komputes> pedro_: Dealing with Launchpad a lot in your daily bug managing tasks, you are in a key position in inproving Launchpad Bugs. Are there important changes/features you personally would like to see in upcoming revisions of Launchpad that you believe will help the bug squad.
<pedro_> well, one of the *key* things I'd really like to see is a better (working) duplicate search
<pedro_> often i face bugs with backtraces and there's no way to search for that on launchpad
<pedro_> so yes that's one of the things I'd *love* to see shortly on LP
<pedro_> <komputes> pedro_:  you mean searching within attachments?
<pedro_> yes and no, you can either have a page with a big text box where you could paste the backtrace and lp could return to you a list of bugs that look similar to your backtrace
<pedro_> or yeah like a "duplicate" button next to the attachment, either case would work fine i think
 * JManGt is back (gone 00:06:15)
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<pedro_> but for example people report bugs with apport or they paste the backtrace on the same summary
<pedro_> for the second case would be good to have another tool as well ;-)
<pedro_> and you probably could use that for searching a phrase like "nautilus hangs on samba shares with blah version"
<pedro_> the Gnome Bugzilla has something like that and it really rocks I'd encourage you to test that ;-)
<pedro_> btw http://bugzilla.gnome.org/dupfinder/simple-dup-finder.cgi?
<pedro_> try it later and let me know what you think ;-)
<pedro_> ok folks let's keep going
<pedro_> we have more status to talk about
<pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as "In Progress", because there's a person working on it, If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch the bug needs to be marked as Fix Committed
<pedro_> and when that fix get released (a fix was upload to an official Ubuntu repository) the status of the bug is changed to Fix Released
<pedro_> but please remember that this doesn't apply to the packages on the proposed repository, they stay on Fix Committed until they're available on the updates
 * JManGt is back (gone 00:03:52)
<pedro_> * Won't Fix: the status is applied when the bug fix is too controversial or when the feature that someone requested is not going to be implemented
<pedro_> if you request something like "make rhythmbox shake when i say banshee" that is not going to happen
<pedro_> so that bug probably would be marked as WontFix
<pedro_> If you have been doing a lot and good work on the triage front you can apply for membership on the Ubuntu Bug Control Team
<Sealbhach> Normal user here. I often think of reporting bugs but worried about it being a duplicate and wasting everybody's time. Do you get fed up with all the duplicate bug reports?
<pedro_> which is a subset of the Ubuntu BugSquad and that membership allows you to change the Importance of bugs, set the "Triaged" and "Won't Fix" status and look at private bug reports
<pedro_> Sealbhach: ask on #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;-)
<Sealbhach> OK
<pedro_> The importances are 6: Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical and you can read more about them at: Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical
<pedro_> we don't have enough time so i'm not going to talk you about it, you can read the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance if have questions just ask us
<pedro_> If you don't know on where to start doing triage we've been collecting easy tasks for you at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/EasyTasks the ones marked with green are the easiest to do and the one at red require more experience
<hggdh> the link pedro_ meant to give you all is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
<pedro_> yeah if you want to read more about status read the link hggdh just posted
<pedro_> Recently we have been discussed to do a Mentorship program for the people who wants to join the BugSquad
<pedro_> if you're looking for someone to help you out during your way trough the Ubuntu BugSquad please have a look at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
<pedro_> People already on the Ubuntu Bug Control team and willing to be a Mentor can also add their name to that list
<pedro_> so find a person on the area you want to start working and contact they so you can start working together ;-)
<pedro_> we're going to discuss all this deeper during UDS to come out with a more detailed Mentorship program
<pedro_> Question: mentoring to join the bugsquad or the bug control team?
<pedro_> the idea is to have more and better qualified people on the bug control team :-)
<pedro_> One of the rocking activities on the Ubuntu World are the famous Hug Days (Bug Days)
<pedro_> why we call them hug days? well the idea is if you triage a bug you win a hug!
<pedro_> well virtual hug, if you're going to UDS we can hug you there as well
<pedro_> We celebrate hug days almost every Thursday in fact today we're running a hug day based on new bugs since the Jaunty release: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090430
<pedro_> and it was just announced that the Kernel Team is going to celebrate hug days twice a month  on Tuesdays IIRC
<pedro_> so if you're interested on the Kernel, stay tune to announcements on that front! (yeah subscribe to the ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list)
<pedro_> If you participate on a LoCo team... you can organize a Bug Jam!
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<pedro_> the idea is to get together with your LoCo team and start working on some of the bugs on Ubuntu
<pedro_> it could be bugs without a package, new bugs, incomplete reports, etc
<pedro_> if you look at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Events
<pedro_> you'll see a good list of teams there that were signed for the Ubuntu Global Bug Jam but some others for Bug Jams
<pedro_> the Berlin team for example is doing an amazing job on that front and they're doing 2 bugs jams a month (amazing)
<pedro_> so more information on how to run a bug jam? sure  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
<pedro_> and again if you have doubts about anything, just talk too us trough the communications channels already described
<pedro_> and happy triaging everybody!
<jcastro> thanks pedro!
<pedro_> thanks you guys for having me
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2100 UTC: Upstreaming Bugs  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, 2 minutes and I'll get started!
<jcastro> remember to preface your questions with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, let's get started
<jcastro> welcome to all 251 of you!
<jcastro> My name is Jorge Castro and I will be running this next session on upstreaming ubuntu bugs
<jcastro> So before I get into that let me explain exactly what "upstream" is and why it's important to ubuntu
<jcastro> First off, what we call "Ubuntu" is an amalgamation of different software projects from around the free software ecosystem
<jcastro> some of these projects include things like Firefox, GNOME, KDE, OpenOffice, and the programs that you use on your desktop or server
<jcastro> it also includes a bunch of smaller projects most people have never heard of before
<jcastro> Ubuntu takes all these projects, bundles them onto a CD and repositories and this is what people know as "Ubuntu"
<jcastro> We ship Ubuntu every 6 months.
<jcastro> Projects that ship an out-of-the-box Linux system are referred to as distributions, so Ubuntu is a linux distribution
<jcastro> some other distributions you might be familiar with include Fedora, openSUSE, and Foresight
<jcastro> since we ship a bunch of projects as part of Ubuntu, as users find bugs or have feature requests, they file bugs in our bug tracker, Launchpad.
<jcastro> The responsibility of the distribution is then to ensure that these bug reports, patches, and requests find their way to the upstream project.
<jcastro> So for example if you want rhythmbox to turn purple when it plays a certain song, this would be a feature request
<jcastro> that we would forward to the rhythmbox project
<jcastro> Any questions so far?
<jcastro> Ok, moving on
<jcastro> So as bug people like pedro triage bugs, along the line we make the determination wether the bug is an ubuntu problem that we introduced, or a problem with the upstream project
<jcastro> we then create a link in launchpad to the bug in the upstream bug tracker so that the developers of that project can see it
<jcastro> this can be confusing to someone who hasn't done it before
<jcastro> so let me show you some examples
<jcastro> First off, here are the directions from the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches
<jcastro> Since "Ubuntu" is made of a diverse set of projects, each one has little differences that we document here
<jcastro> however, the basics are the same
<jcastro> like with all bug reports, the more clearer your description is and your followup, the better chance of it getting fixed is
<jcastro> < YokoZar> QUESTION: It would be nice if I could filter a package bug list for ones that have upstream links and ones that don't.  It would also be  nice if I could mark a bug as something that shouldn't go upstream (since it's our bug) and thus not appear on that filter...is there a way  to do this?
<jcastro> Interesting question.
<jcastro> First off, we keep a report of our upstream linkages here:
<jcastro> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<jcastro> This is the "Top 100" projects in ubuntu sorted by open bugs
<jcastro> Unfortunately there's no way to arbritrarily get these numbers for any given package in the archive
<jcastro> (however it's on the TODO)
<jcastro> what you can do, is pick one of those projects, then click on the number, and then go back and munge the URL for your package
<jcastro> While I have you looking at this report, this shows you how well we're linking to upstream projects
<jcastro> so let's look at evolution real quick
<jcastro> Right now it has 554 open bugs, 468 of which have been determined to be upstream
<jcastro> of those 465 have bug watches in the upstream bug tracker
<jcastro> which is good!
<jcastro> that means that 465 of those bugs have been found upstream, and then linked.
<jcastro> which means that we can no directly connect our bug reporters to the developers
<jcastro> when bugs get filed in launchpad and they're not linked to upstream, they tend to languish and upstream developers have to go hunting for them, which is less than ideal
<jcastro> ideally we are providing a service to the upstream project by forwarding good, detailed bugs.
<jcastro> < SiDi> QUESTION: when i link a bug to an aditional project on Launchpad, i'm asked wether i have an URI/contact for upstream bug, or wether "i know  its upstream but i don't know how to link". Why is there no option to mention it's not upstream ? (might be duplicate of above)
<jcastro> Ok, so, on any given bug in Launchpad there is a little + button and a link called "Also affects project"
<jcastro> when you click that it asks for the URL of the upstream bug tracker
<jcastro> the reason there is no option to upstream is because you should only open a task on a project if it's upstream
<jcastro> so for example, if you're reporting a bug in Evolution
<jcastro> in launchpad it shows up as "Evolution (ubuntu)"
<jcastro> if you open a task for "Evolution" that's for evolution the upstream project.
<jcastro> < SiDi> jcastro: my point is that if i want to register to another project for which upstream is hosted on launchpad, the fact of not having such an  option in the list of radio buttons is irrelevant
<jcastro> oh I see
<jcastro> right, so really, the linking works best for bug trackers outside of launchpad.
<jcastro> I can see where that is confusing though, I will note it down and tell the bug team
<jcastro> ok, so what does a link look like?
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/188565
<jcastro> so let's look at this bug here
<jcastro> so mario reported this bug
<jcastro> and as you can see in the comments, Pedro recognized that it's a problem with gnome-terminal
<jcastro> so he added that to the comment
<jcastro> and then clicked on "Also affects project"
<jcastro> and then pasted the upstream bug report
<jcastro> which is here
<jcastro> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=514318
<jcastro> so really, both these bugs are the same
<jcastro> pedro just linked it in launchpad, and then when he reported it to GNOME, he linked BACK to launchpad
<jcastro> so that the upstream developers could refer to the launchpad bug if they want
<jcastro> the nice thing about launchpad is that it keeps track of the status in the gnome bugtracker
<jcastro> so when the bug is marked as fixed it shows up in launchpad
<jcastro> so that ubuntu developers can routinely search for bugs fixed in an upstream tracker, but NOT fixed in ubuntu
<jcastro> this makes it easier for them to pull the fix back into ubuntu
<jcastro> so if you go to the lp bug
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/188565
<jcastro> you'll see 2 rows
<jcastro> one that says "Gnome-terminal" and one that says "Gnome-terminal (ubuntu)"
<jcastro> one row refers to the gnome terminal in ubuntu, and the other one is gnome-terminal upstream
<jcastro> if you see a bug where the upstream is fix released, but it's not fixed in ubuntu, then that is a prime candidate for people to fix
<jcastro> so, the loop gets closed like this
<jcastro> we have a tool called harvest, which culls all sorts of info, including bugs that are fixed upstream but not in ubuntu
<jcastro> http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=evolution
<jcastro> so in this example, for evolution we have these set of bugs
<jcastro> you'll note too that we look for bugs closed in other distros as well
<jcastro> there is an option in bugs to link them to other distributions
<jcastro> so for example if I find a bug in gwibber that is fedora-specific, I can do that
<jcastro> many times different distros see the same bug, and in order to help reduce duplication of effort lp let's you link to other distro bug trackers
<jcastro> Another critical piece of upstreaming bugs is when patches are attached
<jcastro> it makes no sense to fix a bug and have it stuck in ubuntu
<jcastro> it's not fun for upstream developers because they don't get fixes
<jcastro> and it's not fun for ubuntu developers because they have to carry a patch over time, which brings a maintenance burden
<jcastro> so when we do merges with Debian (like we're doing with Karmic), many ubuntu developers take that opportunity to send queued up patches to either debian or to the upstream projects themselves
<jcastro> we of course encourage this, as it's healthier for everyone involved.
<jcastro> any more questions?
 * jcastro let's people digest
<jcastro> Ok, so what can you as a normal person do to help improve linkages?
<jcastro> well, first off, as you become a more experienced triager you'll be able to kind of figure out which problems are probably an ubuntu problem, and which ones are an upstream issue
<jcastro> One can spend hours in launchpad just looking at a bug, then opening a tab, going to the upstream bug tracker, searching for the same issue, and then finding a bug.
<jcastro> and then you just read the comments, and then link the two together
<jcastro> < pwnguin> QUESTION: do I need to get the project driver to inform launchpad when a project stops using launchpad for bug tracking? (example:  cellwriter)
<jcastro> that person needs to set the project in launchpad to have it say it uses and external bug tracker
<jcastro> or, you can let me know, and I'll do it. :)
<jcastro> please send me a mail at jorge@ubuntu.com and I'll fix it up. :)
<jcastro> by the way, a little late to mention this now, but hey ...
<jcastro> I am the external developer relations guy for Canonical
<jcastro> and ensuring that linkages are healthy and going to the right place is my job
<jcastro> so if at any point you see a bug where you are confused
<jcastro> or you see something that should be made better or fixed (like the last 2 questions), you can always get ahold of me to fix it
<jcastro> creating this "bridge" between the end user bug report and the upstream developer is a crucial piece of ensure that free software gets better
<jcastro> some people start small, for example this one guy andrewski stays around banshee bugs
<jcastro> he doesn't try to forward every bug in every project in launchpad
<jcastro> he picks a piece of software he cares about and then tries to do his best in that little area
<jcastro> this is ideal because the sum of people taking care of little areas improves the distribution as a whole
<jcastro> some people purposely pick obscure or neglected projects to take care of
<jcastro> this is great too, because we can all be sure right now there are bug reports or patches rotting someplace that need to get attention
<jcastro> part of my job is also talking to upstrems
<jcastro> and one thing I always ask is how well our forwarded reports are
<jcastro> in the past comments weren't so good
<jcastro> but we are making a concerted effort to get better
<jcastro> and lately things have been improving
<jcastro> sometimes users might put a link in a comment
<jcastro> for example
<jcastro> "Hey guys, I think this is bug #123456 in KDE"
<jcastro> but some people might not be experienced triagers
<jcastro> or might not know that launchpad can link the bugs
<jcastro> so I like to go over those bugs and check to make sure that it's linked, if it is indeed the same bug
<jcastro> < pwnguin> QUESTION: should the initial reporter bear any burden on the upstream bug report?
<jcastro> Ideally, that would be great
<jcastro> if the reporter is experienced, I hope so!
<jcastro> but honestly alot of people report the bug, and they might not know what to do after that
<jcastro> so there can be some mentorship or hand holding there
<jcastro> also, if the bug is "popular", usually it doesn't need to be the reporter
<jcastro> one of the other people or a bug triager can handle that
<jcastro> of course, if you do know that it is an upstream bug, you can just report the bug upstream directly
<jcastro> what I do is right before I file a bug upstream I search launchpad as well
<jcastro> and usually there's a dupe or something I can mark or link
<jcastro> < pwnguin> somnoliento: what happens is i file a bug, upstream asks a question
<jcastro> good question!
<jcastro> usually someone will tell you to put your comments in the upstream bug
<jcastro> or sometimes the upstream developer will comment in launchpad itself
<jcastro> one thing the bugs people have made is a plugin for Bugzilla and Trac (available under the GPL3)
<jcastro> that an upstream bug tracker can install
<jcastro> this allows things like comment syncing, etc. between the upstream tracker and launchpad itself
<jcastro> so ideally, there will be nicer collaboration with upstream bug trackers
<jcastro> however, not all upstream projects have a bug tracker, or they might have some homegrown thing
<jcastro> for example, vim doesn't have a bug tracker, just a mailing list
<jcastro> so in that case we have to follow up the old fashioned way
<jcastro> But sometimes yea, the reporter will report the bug, then disappear
<jcastro> in that case, it's up to people like us to at least figure out what to do with it.
<jcastro> Any more questions?
<jcastro> < somnoliento> QUESTION: Syncing comments with upstream sounds sweet. Any major projects using it?
<jcastro> Not in production as far as I know
<jcastro> however our bugs people have been working with the kernel.org bugzilla people
<jcastro> hopefully over this next cycle
<jcastro> there is a lot of work in this area, so stay tuned
<jcastro> the plugin is OSS, so even if you're running your own trac instance for your little project, you can take advantage of it
<jcastro> So one other place where you can help
<jcastro> is by trudging through the upstream bugzilla
<jcastro> and usually, after doing bug work you kind of start to get the feel for it
<jcastro> when you read a bug report and you'll think "hmmm, I've seen that in launchpad before" and then I go dig for it
<jcastro> < charlie-tca> Can it be integrated to bugzilla.xfce.org?
<jcastro> absolutely!
<jcastro> charlie-tca: I will follow up with you after this week and link you up with the right people
<jcastro> and like I said, you'll have better success picking something you care about (start small), and then being that bridge
<jcastro> then, as upstream gets our bugs and patches you help them
<jcastro> which in turn helps ubuntu
<jcastro> this "cycle" of patches, bugs, and fixes is important to keep open and flowing
<jcastro> regardless of what desktop or distro you use!
<jcastro> more questions?
<jcastro> ok, so we can bring the discussion in here now
<jcastro> and discuss amongst yourselves. :)
<jcastro> or maybe some experiences you've had
<jcastro> < SiDi> QUESTION: we do need more triagers with the insane amount of bugs, don't we ?
<jcastro> absolutely
<jcastro> yes
<charlie-tca> thanks a lot, jcastro. I am still learning
<jcastro> yes, I learn with every link
<jcastro> especially when you get one wrong. :)
<jcastro> and the upstream is like "what is this? Go away idiot." :p
<jcastro> but generally putting the right bugs in the right pile is straightforward
<jcastro> however, it is important to know that doing something wrong can be worse than doing nothing at all
<jcastro> so if you have any doubts, ask someone in #ubuntu-bugs
<jcastro> I ask people stupid questions all the time, and I deal with bugs every day
<jcastro> ok, take 5 and the next session will begin
<jcastro> thanks so much for attending!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2200 UTC: Launchpad Code Hosting  || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jml> aww yeah.
<SiDi> thanks to you jcastro
<jml> Ok, we ready to go?
<jml> Let's start.
<jml> Today we're talking about hosting code on Launchpad.
<jml> As you can see by the text to left, I'm jml.
<jml> My name is Jonathan Lange, I live in Sydney (so it's actually 8am in the morning for me) and my hobbies are drinking coffee.
<jml> I've been working on Launchpad's codehosting system for Canonical for over two years now.
<jml> There's so many things I could talk about today
<jml> so please please please ask questions.
<jml> I've prepared this session based on an imaginary version of you.
<jml> I might have assumed that you're familiar with things you don't actually know at all; something that I think you might not know might already be old-hat to you.
<jml> so interrupt.
<jml> (or do the QUESTION: thing in -chat)
<jml> Anyway!
<jml> Someone once said that Launchpad is like a massive Open Source supermarket: You can just stroll in and pick up any project you want.
<jml> For example, if you want to get the full version control history of the Gnome Do project, do 'bzr branch lp:do'.
<jml> In fact, for almost any project you can think of, you can do 'bzr branch lp:<project>' and you'll get a copy of their trunk branch.
<jml> Or if you just want to get the latest code for, say, Banshee, do 'bzr co --lightweight lp:banshee'.
<jml> How familiar are you all with bzr?
<jml> ok :)
<Eveready> no familiar
<jml> no worries, I'll talk a bit about Bazaar then :)
<Eveready> I guess its like subversion
<jml> Yeah, Bazaar is a version control thing like Subversion
<Eveready> cvs checkout client
<Eveready> Ive used those some
<jml> The big difference from Subversion is that it doesn't rely on a central repository
<jml> Instead of getting just the files and telling a central server about the history, you get the full history
<jml> So you don't need "commit privileges" to hack on a project
<jml> QUESTION:  if a package is maintained outside of launchpad, bzr branch will only get me the ubuntu/debian patches for this package, right?
<jml> Very good question.
<jml> There are two sorts of branches on Launchpad
<jml> there's upstream code -- like Gnome Do, Banshee, Twisted, Bazaar itself etc
<jml> there's also code for ubuntu packages
<jml> so, if you branch from an upstream project, you'll actually get everything
<jml> all the code that it's in there, that's ever been there.
<Eveready> ok
<jml> code for ubuntu / debian packages has kind of been a second-class citizen on Launchpad until very very recently.
<jml> At the start of this month, we released an alpha version of support for branches of source packages
<jml> I'll talk about that a bit later
<jml> (last month! sheesh!)
<jml> The platform team are working with that right now to make sure that the patches for a package are uploaded with version control
<jml> there's a doc on a wiki somewhere...
<jml> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/
 * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
<jml> that talks about the plan. if you're at UDS, we'll be talking about it a lot.
<jml> So, Launchpad is a great big open source supermarket
<jml> For the code side of things, what we want is to give you a simple and consistent way to get the source code for every Free Software project that you can think of.
<jml> so that you can start fixing bugs or making things better :)
<jml> If you go to https://launchpad.net and click on the "Code" tab, you'll see a bunch of projects that use Launchpad directly
<jml> but there are also a heap of projects that don't use Launchpad themselves
<jml> we sync their code anyway :)
<jml> "supermarket" is a pretty lousy term (sorry kiko!).
<jml> A supermarket is a place where you *get* things. Launchpad is that, but it's also a place where you *put* things.
<jml> You might you be starting your own project or already run one, and you want to use Launchpad to host it, manage it, and to link up with other, related projects.
<jml> and with Ubuntu, of course :)
<jml> Or you might want to patch Gnome Do or some other project that uses Launchpad
<jml> Or you might just want somewhere to put a little script that you are working on.
<jml> <ryanakca> QUESTION: Does Canonical plan on ever adding support to Launchpad for a (D)VCS other than bzr? Eg. git, mercurial, darcs, etc. I don't know how wide spread bzr is outside of the Ubuntu/Launchpad circle, but offering support for other VCS would attract more users, no?
<jml> So, we already *do* support VCS's other than Bazaar, in a sense
<jml> you can import branches from CVS or Subversion into Bazaar
<jml> And *right now*, other guys on the Code team are working on Git imports
<jml> which are very very close to being ready
<jml> on the cusp, if you will.
<jml> Darcs? Yeah, probably what pwnguin said. :)
<jml> Mercurial -- definitely something we're considering, and probably will do, but there are other things we want to do first.
<ryanakca> *nod*, but say, if project XYZ had chosen the DVCS ``LMNOP'', but also wanted to use Launchpad without having to switch to Bzr, they'd be out of luck?
<jml> Maybe.
<jml> Bazaar is really tightly bound up with how Launchpad thinks about code.
<jml> But with things like bzr-svn and bzr-git, maybe there's something we can do.
 * ryanakca nods, great, thanks
<jml> <somnoliento> QUESTION: Wouldn't the upstream developer consider it... 'rude' if I slurp all the code for the project? like my own 'rogue' version.. ?
<jml> most of the time, no.
<jml> With projects that are still using SVN and CVS, it's often an opportunity to try out a next-gen version control system.
<jml> And it's often free mirroring.
<jml> But!
<jml> It's always good to ask.
<jml> Because actually more interesting than any tool is building good human-being style relationships with people in other projects. :)
<jml> What we want for Launchpad is to be a front-end to the free software world
<jml> so if we "Import his code and revisions... and keep tracking the project outside of its preferred environment.. using LP's bugtracker and all associated tools"
<jml> it actually doesn't cause problems
<jml> because we're integrating really really well with the preferred environment
<jml> that's the extended answer to ryanakca's question too.
<jml> So I guess I should talk about how you can actually get code onto Launchpad
<jml> There are three ways.
<jml> Not two
<jml> Not four
<jml> Three
<jml> 1. Get us to mirror it.
<jml> 2. Importing it from another VCS.
<jml> 3. Pushing it yourself.
<jml> five is right out!
<jml> Hmm.
<jml> So, actually the last one is the most interesting.
<jml> I'll start with that
<jml> If you haven't done so already, install bzr
<jml> you might want to use this ppa: https://edge.launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive/ppa
<jml> so that you get the latest and greatest
<jml> Bazaar releases every month, and it's almost always best to use the latest release.
<jml> Making a Bazaar branch is cake.
<jml> $ cd /tmp
<jml> $ bzr init something
<jml> $ cd something
<jml> $ cat > README
<jml> Oooh look at me, I'm a README.
<jml> (hit Ctrl-D)
<jml> $ bzr add
<jml> $ bzr commit -m "My first commit!"
<jml> done.
<jml> That's a branch.
<jml> You don't have to use cat if you don't want to. That's me showing off leet unix skills.
<jml> to push it up to Launchpad...
<jml> $ bzr push lp:~jml/+junk/something
<jml> except don't use jml
<jml> use your own login name
<jml> Oh actually that reminds me.
<jml> my Launchpad login is the same as my Ubuntu login, and I've had them both for ages.
<jml> You need to tell Bazaar, what your Launchpad login is.
<jml> $ bzr lp-login <username>
<jml> Also, you'll need to set up a public SSH key with Launchpad.
<jml> if you know what that means, go to https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys and get set up now.
<jml> if you don't, then https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair should get you started.
<jml> So the trick is: bzr push lp:~<username>/+junk/<branch>
<jml> The "+junk" bit is Launchpad's way of talking about Bazaar branches that don't belong to any project.
<jml> Generally you don't want to put anything serious there. I use it for Emacs files and little scripts and my D&D 3rd ed character generator.
<jml> "junk" :)
<jml> You can also push a branch to a project: e.g. bzr push lp:~jml/do/tweak-docky-animation
<jml> This is actually one of the cool things about Launchpad
 * JManGt is back (gone 00:21:32)
<jml> you don't need to be an official contributor to push up branches.
<jml> you can push to any project
<jml> and contribute code in just the same way as a core dev
<jml> I want to say a million things next
 * jml picks one
<jml> if *ever* you want to experiment with something on Launchpad, you can use https://staging.launchpad.net.
<jml> staging has all the data that the main site has, but any changes that get made are thrown away at the end of the day -- and it doesn't send out any email.
<jml> so you can muck around without hurting or spamming anybody
<Eveready> thatd be fer me
<jml> to push branches up there, use lp://staging/<whatever>
<jml> register projects, push branches, anything
<jml> <somnoliento> QUESTION: We're talking only about source code here, right? not translations, for instance.
<jml> I'm only talking about source code, yes.
<jml> but!
<jml> the translations guys have just made some changes so Launchpad can snarfle up .pot files from source code branches
<jml> and I think they are working on getting .po files too
<jml> bear in mind, I live on an English speaking island in the middle of nowhere, so my knowledge of translations is pretty dim.
<jml> snarfle. it's a verb meaning to extract translation files :)
<jml> <mwhudson> i think import of .po files is live now
<jml> rockin
<jml> if you ask on #launchpad, you can find out more about translations and branches.
<jml> So, another option with hosting your source code is that you can keep it on Bazaar branches on your own server
<jml> or someone else's server
<jml> and we'll mirror it for you
<jml> e.g. browse to a project page or your own person page
<jml> https://code.launchpad.net/people/+me will always redirect to your own branch page, btw
<jml> there'll be a "Register a branch" link on the top-right
<jml> I'm looking at https://code.staging.launchpad.net/bzr/+addbranch right now.
<jml> type in the name of the branch, and the URL where it's hosted and click "Register"
<jml> and that'll mirror the branch.
<jml> (you can just use http://branch.example.com/whatever if you want to try)
<jml> at the very top you'll see text like:
<jml>  The resulting location of the branch will be: ~jml/bzr/whatever
<jml> (before you hit submit, that is)
<jml> once you've registered the mirror and Launchpad has had a chance to actually mirror it (15mins on staging, ~2-4 on the main site)
<jml> you can go 'bzr branch lp:~jml/bzr/whatever' and get the branch
<jml> don't worry too much about the status -- most people don't really use those.
<jml> also, don't worry too much about "branch type". If you are at this form, you almost always want to select a mirrored branch.
<jml> (I filed bugs about those two things while preparing this session!)
<jml> Very quickly on importing branches
<jml> there are projects that don't use Launchpad or Bazaar
<jml> xchat (my IRC client of choice) is a good example.
<jml> if you ever come across a project like that, you should request that Launchpad import it.
<jml> browse to the project, e.g. https://code.staging.launchpad.net/xchat
<jml> and click the "Import your project" link
<jml> You'll need to get the version control details from the main site (google can help here)
<jml> and as mentioned before: cvs and svn only for now
<jml> git real soon
<jml> mercurial later
<jml> darcs when you need ice skates in the sahara
<jml> Importing code from Subversion into Bazaar is an art, not a science.
<jml> Importing from CVS is a black art.
<jml> so we review all of the imports before we start running them
<jml> there are some guidelines about this
<jml> and we'll be opening those up as we get closer to open sourcing
<jml> in the mean time, if you have any problems, ask on https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad-code or on #launchpad
<jml> mwhudson: that right?
<jml> ...
<jml> silence means "yes"
<jml> good :)
<jml> COMING SOON!
<jml> git imports, as mentioned before
<jml> we'll start with small git repos and then move on up
<jml> source package branches
<jml> right now you can only push to:
<jml> lp:~user/project/branch
<jml> or lp:~user/+junk/branch
<jml> this doesn't help ubuntu much or debian much
<jml> very recently, we added support so that you can push to lp:~user/ubuntu/karmic/package/branch
<jml> you can try this out on staging or the main server today
<jml> lp://staging/~user/ubuntu/... for staging
<jml> you can also push to lp:~user/debian/squeeze/package/branch as well
<jml> it won't integrate well with the rest of the site, but the actual hosting of package branches is rock solid
<jml> e.g. lp:~jml/ubuntu/karmic/pulseaudio/fix-my-headset
<jml> the platform team are working on actually making the official branches for every source package in ubuntu
<jml> james_w: how many is that?
<james_w> too many :-)
<jml> :)
<james_w> around 16000 packages
<jml> as that happens, you'll be able to get code by doing 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/pulseaudio'
<jml> that'll have all of the patches on top of the upstream tarball, right?
<james_w> 5 branches for Debian, and up to 40 for Ubuntu per package
<jml> !
<james_w> yep, the result is the same as unpacking the source package, and you'll be able to see what's added in the packaging, and what's in the upstream tarball
<jml> cool.
<jml> man, I haven't even talked about code reviews yet
<jml> <RainCT> jml: QUESTION: Does this only work for existing packages or can we also push new packages there (ie., for review before actually uploading them to Ubuntu)?
<jml> in the initial phase, existing packages only.
<jml> but probably in the future, new packages as well
<jml> although maybe you'll need to register them on the website first, just like upstream projects.
<jml> also, we really really really want to be able to make it braindead-simple to make a PPA based on a package branch-
<jml> but part of the thing is that we don't really know what Ubuntu development will look like with every package in a branch
<jml> so it's important that you guys try it out and prod us on #launchpad and tell us what's happening, what's working, what we should change
<jml> oh, and contribute patches once we open source :)
<jml> <AmanicA> QUESTION: should I have one project for all the cool little scripts I want to be able to install through a ppa? or should I create a project for each?
<jml> good question
<jml> (I don't know the answer, actually)
<jml> I'd guess that it depends on what would make your users happiest
 * jml opens the floor
<jml> (oh, btw, when I fix bug 345737, you'll be able to branch lp:ubuntu/pulseaudio)
<jml> we have two minutes left
<jml> any more questions
<jml> hmm, so the schedule doesn't have anyone listed after this
<jml> so, I love talking about launchpad and bazaar
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-01
<jml> it's challenging to prepare a session because there are so many things you can do with them and so many levels of knowledge
<jml> so actually the best thing you can do is ask me on #bzr or #launchpad
<jml> Or ask the channel, we're a pretty friendly bunch.
<jml> and lots of us have had to climb the learning curve recently, so we know what it's like
<jml> That's it from me
<jml> You're all wonderful :)
<jml> happy hacking!
 * RainCT hugs jml :)
 * arky claps
<jml> \o/
<james_w> thanks jml
<jml> my pleasure.
<destitutedly> hey
<destitutedly> :-D
<thebrotherofasis> quit
<czajkowski> 'part
<UbuntuBuddy> hello?
<Odd_Bloke> That happens to me on the
<Odd_Bloke> Â¬.Â¬
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1500 UTC: Launchpad Soyuz Overview || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> We'll get started in a bout an hour and 10 minutes!
<bbb_> morning jorge
<jcastro> morning bbb_ !
<jcastro> we'll start in about 12 minutes!
<jcastro> cprov: you're up first!
<jcastro> before we get started, thanks again everyone for coming, as always, please keep this channel clear for the presenter
<cprov> jcastro: yes, I'm ready.
<jcastro> and post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> cprov: ok, ~8 more minutes!
<cprov> sure
<jcastro> ok cprov, take it away!
<cprov> jcastro: thanks
<cprov> Hi everyone, we are here to talk about Soyuz, a Launchpad subsystem.
<cprov> feel free to send your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat anytime.
<cprov> In this session I want to give a overview about the Soyuz and which roles it plays in the Launchpad ecosystems
<cprov> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CelsoProvidelo/SoyuzInfrastructureOverview has a diagram of the soyuz moving parts.
<cprov> Basically Soyuz = upload processing + building + package publication.
<cprov> oh, we already have a question:
<cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Which part is Soyuz again?  And is it named after Chinese food?
<cprov> funny, huh?
<cprov> Soyuz is named after the soviet space-programme/rocket -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_programme
<cprov> back to the main subject, Soyuz is the background infrastructure for the Ubuntu package management system and the Launchpad PPAs
<cprov> I thought we were going to have more questions.
<cprov> jcastro: Question: Can you talk about some of the new features that we can look forward to in soyuz?
<cprov> jcastro: good one! we are looking forward to have proper integration with Launchpad Codehosting very soon.
<cprov> jcastro: cprov: so we can build packages rigfht from hosted code on lp?
<cprov> exactly
<cprov> user will be able to branch and build source packages very easily.
<cprov> no painfully huge tarball uploads anymore, just one click and a branch will be materialized as a source package in Ubuntu or your PPA.
<cprov> genii: QUESTION: Whats the policy on inclusion of binary blobs, proprietary bits, etc
<cprov> genii: it depends on the license, nothing forbids you to upload a binary blob with a source package and distribute it in your PPA, but if it violates the upstream license the PPA will be deactivated as soon as someone complains.
<cprov> tsimpson: QUESTION: why invent soyuz, wasn't there anything else that does what you want?
<cprov> tsimpson: no, there wasn't anything that could be easily integrated with Launchpad off-the-shelve.
<cprov> tsimpson: however it seems unfair to not mention that a lot of the knowledge encoded in Soyuz parts comes from the Debian experience, as many other systems over there.
<cprov> jtholmes: QUESTION: who is allow to perform the builds, devs, ordinary users...?
<cprov> jtholmes: right now, every ubuntu developer (launchpad users with permission to upload to ubuntu) OR every Launchpad user with a PPA (who has signed the Ubuntu Code of Conduct).
<cprov> jtholmes: PPA make it available to almost everyone.
<cprov> genii: QUESTION: Will Soyuz be included when LP is open-sourced soon?
<cprov> good one, too.
<cprov> genii: unfortunately, Soyuz won't be included in the initial release.
<cprov> tsimpson: QUESTION: can we get some more builders for PPAs? please :)
<cprov> tsimpson: yes, soon about 18 builders will be returned to their normal operation, building PPA sources.
<cprov> tsimpson: they are helping to serve jaunty, atm.
<cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Will Soyuz be included in any later releases of LP code?  And is it being kept proprietary because it can't easily be relicensed, or because Canonical depends on it for revenue?
<cprov> Odd_Bloke: I can't guarantee, since this decision involves a lot of other interests inside the company, but I can tell that we are working hard to have a concrete and realistic plan to release Soyuz code.
<cprov> from the development perspective it would be great to release Soyuz code, we are looking forward to allow the community to actively work with it.
<cprov> Odd_Bloke: QUESTION: Is support for building Debian packages on the cards?
<cprov> Odd_Bloke: yes, we are effectively planning to have Debian-PPAs very soon after the Launchpad code release.
<cprov> debian-PPA = sources published and build in an native debian environment.
<cprov> james_w: QUESTION: is there a plan to help with having the same source in different releases without having to upload multiple times with just a changelog tweak?
<cprov> james_w: yes, that's actually supported in the debian changelog format
<cprov> james_w: and there is a bug filled in Launchpad 3.0 release, which means that it should be done by July.
<cprov> james_w: we have to work on rebuild index support in Launchpad, so the same source can generate *different* binary versions when building in different suites.
<cprov> james_w: but it's feasible and should be in place very soon.
<cprov> james_w: so it will be done by rebuilding with a different binary version, rather than copying the binaries forward?
<cprov> yes, the source will be rebuilt in each target suite
<cprov> james_w: copying is already supported (internally, not in the UI) but it's not what multi-target uploads are suppose to do, right ?
<cprov> james_w: QUESTION: that sounds excellent, thanks. Will the same mechanism make it possible for us to do no-change rebuilds in Ubuntu without a sourceful upload?
<cprov> james_w: yes, well observed, the rebuild-infrastructure will be used for no-change rebuilds as well
<cprov> no-change rebuilds = a subset of source have to be rebuilt within a suite in order to take advantage a new common build-dependency.
<cprov> ah, together with all this infrastructure changes we are putting together a group of changes in the Launchpad UI to make it easier for user to search and navigate on Ubuntu packages
<cprov> Martin Albisete, LP UI guy, has put a lot of effort planning richer pages (including a lot more information and apt-url links) for ubuntu packages.
<cprov> those changes will start to land soon in edge.lp.net, so stay tuned.
<cprov> I got quiet again ... I've asked how many people are using the Soyuz bits in the LP API and no one answered. I guess it means we need some more advertising/documentation on that.
<cprov> It's worth noting that Debian sources are being imported by Launchpad for a long time already and it's synced 2x a day (soon going to follow 4x a day), https://edge.launchpad.net/debian
<cprov> and APIs also work for them.
<cprov> There is probably some use for that, even if you are not directly involved with the ubuntu community.
<cprov> We are approaching the end of the session, feel free to ask more question directly to me, use the Launchpad 'contact this user' feature at https://edge.launchpad.net/~cprov :)
<cprov> That's pretty much it. It was a pleasure to talk about Soyuz again and It is good to hear that the interest in having its code released as FOSS still high.
<cprov> it will certainly count in the paths we are choosing ...
<cprov> oh, last-minute question
<cprov>  james_w: QUESTION: how's progress going on giving us a "Sync this!" button for Ubuntu to pull in changes from Debian? I understand that is being worked towards as well.
<cprov> james_w: good point! yes, that's one of the things that are in our pipeline for 3.0
<cprov> james_w: I admit it's getting hard to find a place for it in the middle of all the other features going on, but I believe it will make it.
<cprov> browse to a debian source, and if you have upload permissions to ubuntu there will be a 'Sync it!' button
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<cprov> click on it, choose ubuntu and then the source will be copied to ubuntu with a re-constructed changelog, which will include all the pertinent changes occurred in debian that are being synced to ubuntu.
<cprov> That's it for Soyuz. Thanks everyone for their patience and all the great questions!
<james_w> thanks cprov
<bencrisford> cheers (Y)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1600 UTC: Launchpad Translations ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks cprov!
<^arky^> thanks cprov
<jcastro> ok, in a few minutes dpm will kick off with Demystifying Launchpad Translations
<jcastro> dpm: take it away!
<jcastro> this is dpm's first session ever so let's try to ask good questions!
<dpm> ok, thanks jcastro
<dpm> soren, hello everyone, thank you very much for coming and be warmly welcome to this session on Launchpad Translations!
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I have very recently joined the Community team as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator.
<dpm> As such I've been appointed as the Fourth Horseman under Jono Bacon's lead, riding along with Jorge Castro and Daniel Holbach in this exciting journey.
<dpm> My task will be to work with and within the Ubuntu translations community to provide the best translations in the free software world
<dpm> - as simple as that.
<k-milogars> good
<dpm> I strongly believe that software should be available in every user's language, and in pursuing this goal I've also been a long time contributor to free/open source translations in my own language,
<dpm> which is a voluntary task I will continue doing, as usual, whenever time allows.
<dpm> First of all, a few words on how this session will be structured: this will not be a tutorial on how to translate Ubuntu, but rather an overview of our cool translation tool and some of its features not many of you folks might yet be aware of.
<dpm> Here are the topics I'd like to talk about today...
<dpm> 1. Launchpad Translations
<dpm> 2. Translation updates
<dpm> 3. Giving back to upstream
<dpm> 4. Upstream prevalence
<dpm> 5. Quality assurance
<dpm> 6. External projects
<dpm> 7. Community
<dpm> 8. Contributing to Ubuntu Translations
<dpm> Questions and answers
<dpm> It's a long list so I might have to shorten the topics if we get short on time
<dpm> So without further ado...
<dpm> Let's get going
<dpm> = Launchpad Translations (1/8) =
<dpm> As most of you probably know, Launchpad (http://launchpad.net) is the tool used for development and maintenance of Ubuntu.
<dpm> To this respect, Translations are not an exception, and perfectly married to Ubuntu's goal to make translations a first class citizen in the open source scene, Launchpad sports a dedicated component for translating Ubuntu
<dpm> This component goes by the very imaginative name of Launchpad Translations (https://translations.launchpad.net/), and it effectively allows translating Ubuntu in a distributed manner. In other words, it is an online translation tool.
<dpm> Some of you might also know it by its codename: Rosetta
<dpm> Ubuntu is currently translated in about 200 languages, with different levels of coverage, and can easily support more. You can see the languages supported of in our shiny new version of Ubuntu here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+translations
<dpm> These translations are made by the community, organised in several translation teams https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> And I must not forget to remark that many of these translations come also from upstream translation communities and are then imported into Ubuntu
<dpm> = Translation updates (2/8) =
<dpm> One of the big advantages of using Launchpad Translations is that it allows contributors to translate not even during the development stage of a given Ubuntu version, but also after the release - that is, during its complete life cycle
<dpm> - why is that so cool?, I hear you ask
<dpm> Enter language packs
<dpm> These are software packages containing translations from Rosetta. They are released at regular intervals with snapshots of the translations contributors have been doing in Rosetta.
<dpm> That effectively means that new translations are regularly released, independently from applications, and users can in short time see the improvements and fixes done by translators.
<dpm> We build update packages for all stable releases once a week and upload them into the ubuntu-langpack PPA at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-langpack/+archive/ppa. From there they ultimately make their way into the distro, which is when users see the changes
<dpm> More on language packs -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/LanguagePacks
<dpm> = Giving back to upstream (3/8) =
<dpm> We do not yet have a mechanism in place to automatically push Ubuntu translations to the upstream projects - i.e. the original projects from which some translations come from.
<dpm> As those of you involved with translations will know, this is a tricky task.
<dpm> There is a variety of projects with different translation formats, infrastructures and policies which make this difficult.
<dpm> As an example, not all upstream communities would be happy with committing translations from Ubuntu translators automatically without having reviewed them themselves to make sure they comply with their guidelines.
<dpm> In short, we have not yet -and I believe no one else has- developed a tool which is a substitute for human communication
<dpm> As such, we encourage translation teams to work together with their local upstream translation communities, to make sure there is a smooth communication and to give back their contributions when necessary.
<dpm> What we do provide is great flexibility in getting these translations out of Rosetta and back to upstream
<dpm> * You can download the translations on a per-package-basis, either for a given language or for all languages
<dpm> * The whole lot of language pack tarballs containing all translations for a given release can also be conveniently downloaded from here https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+language-packs (the Jaunty ones, as an example)
<dpm> * We have also got a recent feature which allows you to export only the translation changes made in Launchpad -> http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/partial-po-export-holding-post
<dpm> * In fact, even if you only contribute to upstream, this flexibility already gives you the best of both worlds: you can use the nice Rosetta interface to translate on line, download the translation when you are finished, and submit it upstream.
<dpm> In any case, we are always happy to listen to what the community wants, and we are continually assessing new ways to improve this interaction with upstream
<dpm> = Upstream prevalence (4/8) =
<dpm> Still related to upstream, a few months ago we also implemented a feature addressing the wishes of the community and that maybe not so many people are aware of.
<dpm> Now translations from upstream have got prevalence over the ones from Launchpad.
<dpm> Yes, this means that the upstream strings effectively override those translated in Launchpad.
<dpm> However, we want Ubuntu translation teams to keep their ability to decide whether a string needs to be changed in particular cases (e.g. in case of a translation mistake)
<dpm> With this feature we get the original translations from upstream and the flexibility to either complete them or fix them in specific situations. Together with the fact that these fixes and new translations are soon released to the users through language packs, this make us unstoppable! ;)
<dpm> You will find some more detailed information on this feature here -> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2008-December/001994.html
<dpm> = Quality assurance (5/8) =
<dpm> Quality is also an important aspect in Ubuntu translations
<dpm> In order to address this, we provide flexibility for each team to decide which permission policy they want to use for translations: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/YourProject#Choosing%20a%20permissions%20policy
<dpm> The Rosetta user interface also supports this in the form of translation suggestions, allowing a review process to be adopted by the team
<dpm> We encourage each team to have a set of guidelines -including e.g. best practices, translation guides and glossaries-, and they can include a link to those in the Launchpad interface
<dpm> In this way translators are aware of them an can conveniently click on those to consult them any time during translation
<dpm> More information on translation stile guides here -> http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/translations-style-guides
<dpm> = External projects (6/8) =
<dpm> The Rosetta developers, not being contented with providing a tool for Ubuntu translations, went up a step higher towards world domination and allowed for external projects not associated with Ubuntu to use their translation tool.
<dpm> Launchpad offers translation hosting for upstream projects, independently of where they are hosted and of which version control system they use. They can simply register to Launchpad for the use of translations.
<dpm> In other words, a project can have its code and webpage hosted somewhere else than in Launchpad AND still use the benefits of Rosetta
<dpm> ... AND make translators happy along the way
<dpm> now how many of you translators here have had to chase a developer through mailing list for months on end until your translation was ever commited?
<dpm> We want to help communities not specifically related to Ubuntu organize themselves and their efforts around Launchpad, and with that in mind we created the Launchpad Translators group
<dpm> This is a project started and driven by community members who came up with the idea at the last UDS, with the purpose to help coordinating the efforts of translating external projects in Launchpad
<dpm> You'll find more information about it here https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-translators
<dpm> Least but not last, I'd like to mention that although it is not a requirement for external projects using Launchpad, if they choose bzr as their version control system they will get to taste two of the new features which came fresh from the Rosetta developers' oven:
<dpm> Automatic imports of templates (http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/import-translation-templates-from-your-projects-bazaar-branches) and translations (http://blog.launchpad.net/translations/import-translations-from-bazaar-branches).
<dpm> I'll leave it up to you to read more on those.
<dpm> = Community (7/8) =
<dpm> As in the rest of Ubuntu, we want translations to have an open workflow and welcome the community to participate in this process
<dpm> As a means of pursuing this goal, we've got several open communication channels such as mailing lists, the Ubuntu wiki and IRC -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
<dpm> We want to empower the community to be able to completely manage Ubuntu translations without the need of any developer intervention
<dpm> To this purpose, we've got the Ubuntu Translation Coordinators team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-translation-coordinator), of which some of the community members who are doing awesome contributions to translations are already part of.
<dpm> There's already great progress there, but there's always more to do.
<dpm> Freedom: as some of you may now, we are we are making Launchpad free software with the release 3.0 coming in July 2009!
<dpm> = Contributing to Ubuntu Translations (8/8) =
<dpm> soren, are you interested in translating Ubuntu into your own language and let yourself and many other users enjoy the results of your effort? Go on, contact your local team and contribute to the spirit of Ubuntu!
<dpm> You can just go to https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators and look for the team in charge of the language you are interested in
<dpm> Then you can click on its link and finally click on the 'Overview' tab of its Launchpad space
<dpm> There you will find information on how to join them, and they will assist you in your first steps using Rosetta and translating Ubuntu
<dpm> For general discussion and information, feel welcome to use any of the communication channels available -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/Contact
<dpm> Here are a few additional links which will help you getting started:
<dpm> â¢ List of Ubuntu Translation teams: https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> â¢ List of Launchpad Translation teams (for projects not specific to Ubuntu): https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/launchpad-translators
<dpm> â¢ How to translate Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu
<dpm> â¢ Launchpad Translations help: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
<dpm> â¢ Questions and answers on Launchpad translations: https://answers.launchpad.net/rosetta
<dpm> And remember, many of those are wiki resources, so you can also contribute to expanding and improving them
<dpm> phew, we covered a lot of ground there. Thanks for listening so far.
<dpm> we'll now head up to the Q+A part
<dpm> <^arky^> Question: Why does some LP packages like say gnome-orca does not have the Translations link?
<dpm> It might have been that a developer forgot to link to a release series, in any case, you can find the gnome-orca translations here -> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/gnome-orca
<dpm> <charlie-tca> QUESTION: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/about-xubuntu/ar/+translate has several suggestions listed. Who approves/disapproves those?
<dpm> The Ubuntu Arabic Translators team seems to be in charge of those -> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ar
<dpm> As such,  they can review and approve suggestions
<dpm> You'll find more information, such as how to contact them, on their wiki page -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArabicTranslationTeam
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<jcastro> ok, we'll take a 5 minute break since there are no questions
<jcastro> thanks dpm!
<dpm> :)
<dpm> Many thanks for listening and I hope to see some of you guys contributing to translations very soon!
<spell> thanks dpm
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1700 UTC: Exhibiting Ubuntu at Conferences ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> alright guys, next we have Flannel and Yasumoto on how to exhibit ubuntu at conferences
<jcastro> so, whenever you guys are ready, take it away!
<Yasumoto> will do, thanks jcastro
<Yasumoto> Hello everyone, and welcome to our topic. Today we're going to be covering how to Exhibit Ubuntu at Conferences.
<Yasumoto> This is mainly aimed at LoCos, since they are typically the groups that will be representing Ubuntu in the area.
<Yasumoto> I'm Joe Smith, a member of the Ubuntu California team. I'm also a member of the Southern California Linux Expo's Community Relations committee, which is in charge of organizing the community groups that exhibit on the expo hall floor.
<Yasumoto> Conferences are a great place to meet new people and get together with your friends to have a great time.
<Yasumoto> A lot more local Open Source conferences are being organized, which is really nice, and they usually have a show floor to allow different groups to exhibit.
<Yasumoto> Most of these have space for sponsors (typically companies that can pay to support the conference) and community groups.
<Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
<Yasumoto> Most of these have space for sponsors (typically companies that can pay to support the conference) and community groups.
<Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
<Yasumoto> These are generally local volunteers, such as Fedora Ambassadors, LoCo teams, or other members of community projects.
 * Flannel bumps the needle.
<Yasumoto> So, any general questions about conferences?
<Yasumoto> Flannel: thanks :)
<Yasumoto> Attendees walk around the hall, looking for some cool conversation and schwag, which they usually find in abundance.
<Yasumoto> Once you and your LoCo team hear about a conference that you all want to attend and work a booth at, you need to get in touch with the event organizers and register.
<Yasumoto> You'll want to have someone take point on this. Look through the conference website for the person in charge of community groups, also know as dotOrgs (because they typically have websites such as openssh.org)
<Yasumoto> Find the "How to apply as an exhibitor" section (such as this one for SCaLE http://scale7x.socallinuxexpo.org/conference-info/call-for-dotorg-exhibitors) and follow the steps.
<Yasumoto> Be sure to CC any other group members that are working with you to set up the conference, and be sure to email the list regularly detailing your progress.
<Yasumoto> Sometimes, it's good to just email even if it's just "I'm still waiting to hear back from them, but I'll send them a followup email in a few days just in case"
<Yasumoto> This lets your group know that you've got the boring paperwork under control, which is something you don't want to be worrying about.
<Yasumoto> Try to be helpful and respectful, but definitely ask them any questions you have, and don't be shy.
<Yasumoto> If they ask you a question, or for more information, work with your group and get back to them in a reasonable amount of time.
<Yasumoto> It's their job to help you out :)
<Yasumoto> Once you've registered the team, you need to double check and make sure your members are taken care of.
<Yasumoto> This generally includes both housing and conference registration.
<Yasumoto> Most conferences give a certain number of passes to each exhibiting group, and get a list of names before the event so they know who to expect.
<Yasumoto> This leads to figuring out who will volunteer, which I'll get to in a bit.
<Yasumoto> Conferences usually are able to find a discounted group rate for the hotel, which is nice.
<Yasumoto> It may not be the cheapest place to stay at, so for those on a budget, it's good to look around.
<Yasumoto> Don't wait until the last minute! It's important to get your hotel booked as soon as possible.
<Yasumoto> You' don't want to find out that the hotel rooms are filled, and you'll have to be at one that's across the city.
<Yasumoto> So that's generally it for the conference-related work that you need to do beforehand.
<Yasumoto> Any questions about registration, or preparation logistics?
<Flannel> QUESTION:  Can any LoCo or ubuntu community member set up and exhibit or do you have to get permission to do that from someone?
<Yasumoto> Surprisingly, I generally found the answer to be no, which I thought is pretty cool.
<Flannel> Just make sure you're not duplicating effort
<Yasumoto> The one catch is that you'll need to make sure that you don't have two groups trying to represent at one conference, which can be troublesome.
<Yasumoto> If you've spent some time in your area, you should be pretty tied in with any Ubuntu community members, and you can coordinate.
<Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: by "mail the list" do you mean the loco's own mail list?
<Yasumoto> Yes, I did. That's actually shorthand for "the place your LoCo communicates with each other"
<Yasumoto> mailing lists are usually ideal, as they can be read by people that aren't online when you send it out (unlike IRC), which is nice
<Yasumoto> Alright, moving on
<Yasumoto> In order to get your LoCo ready, it takes a bit more work :)
<Yasumoto> This is where you need to focus on knowing your volunteers, setting up a schedule, and getting a list of things to bring.
<Yasumoto> So your volunteers will be the members of your LoCo that want to participate.
<Yasumoto> Conferences are a really great opportunity for people to all pitch in for an event that's usually a bit larger than normal ones.
<Yasumoto> I've found that the team Wiki pages are a good way to organize who's going to help out.
<Yasumoto> This is where you can set up a schedule, starting from when the conference's expo hall opens until it closes
<Yasumoto> It's generally helpful to set up shifts of about two to three hours, as that gives people time to walk around and grab some food.
<Yasumoto> I've found that most people like to hang out at the booth regardless, because there's a lot of energy and it's really fun :)
<Yasumoto> You'll also want to set up a list of items you need to bring.
<Yasumoto> For an example, I'll direct you guys to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Scale7x
<Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: Especially for smaller events, should organizers be prepared in the case that few others help out?
<Yasumoto> Yes, definitely.
<Yasumoto> There can be the case where certain people won't be able to make it, so you should have a few people around that can assist as needed.
<Yasumoto> So on the wiki page, we have a list of stuff
<Yasumoto> This stuff can be rather nebulous, and range from demo computers to snacks for the team
<Yasumoto> For our booth at the Southern California Linux Expo, the conference provided a network drop and a power outlet, which made life easier on us.
<Yasumoto> We also brought in some extra power strips and a mini linksys router, since we wanted to set up demo computers
<Yasumoto> If people have computers (preferably laptops, since they're easier to carry!) to demo Ubuntu, that's great.
<Yasumoto> Sometimes attendees may not be familiar with ubuntu, or even linux in general, so it's nice to have it there to let them explore :)
<Yasumoto> That worked out for us, but the key is to ask your team what you guys want your booth to be.
<Yasumoto> Once you guys get a list of what you'll need, that's when you can set up a table
<Yasumoto> This'll let your team know what you still need, and help people check off what they can bring
<Yasumoto> So once you have determined what you need, and the schedule for working the booth, it's time to get ready for the actual day
<Yasumoto> About two weeks beforehand, you'll want to go through the list and prune out obscure/unpopular items
<Yasumoto> You should do this as a team, if not at an in-person meeting, then IRC will work.
<Yasumoto> It's also a good idea to touch base with the conference organizer, just to make sure everything's going as expected.
<Yasumoto> Conferences usually have a setup time, which is when you should show up with all your gear and get it setup.
<Yasumoto> Sometimes this is actually the day before the conference, which will allow you ample time to get things together (maybe even some time to head back and pick up anything you may have forgotten)
<Yasumoto> Make sure that you're keeping tabs on your volunteers, you want to make sure that everyone's on time and bringing what you need.
<Yasumoto> At set up, you've have an opportunity to chat with other exhibitors as they're setting up, and there's a lot of pent-up energy, since everyone's excited for the event to start.
<Yasumoto> Some conferences start up the Expo Hall after their Keynote presentation, so if there are members that are interested in attending, you should feel free to check it out.
<Yasumoto> After the keynote, the floodgates open, and people will make a mad dash to your booth :)
<Yasumoto> This is when all the preparation starts to pay off.
<Yasumoto> You'll meet a very wide array of people, from students to CIOs.
<duanedesign> 5/quit
<Yasumoto> It's generally best to be friendly and open, most people will have a question they want to know
<Yasumoto> Don't worry if you don't know the answer off the top of your head, maybe another team member will know the answer, and you can help get them together to talk about the topic.
<Yasumoto> Sometimes, if it's an obscure question or you're not sure, the best thing is to point them in the right direction, maybe telling them an IRC channel, for instance.
<Yasumoto> It's usually helpful to read up on some topics beforehand, such as the latest Release Notes, the past few Ubuntu Weekly News, and maybe some general technology news sites.
<Yasumoto> Any questions so far?
<Flannel> rufong> QUESTION:where has your team been meeting IRL? (to plan for the conference)
<Yasumoto> I'm a student at Chapman University, and it's pretty easy to meet up in one of the computer labs on campus, so that's been our default meeting place for a while.
<Yasumoto> Restaurants are also a good place to meet up
<Yasumoto> The important part is somewhere that has a warm and friendly atmosphere
<Yasumoto> Oh, I think I misunderstood the question a bit.
<Yasumoto> We haven't actually had any in-person planning meetings, we've done it all on IRC.
<Yasumoto> Using a combination of our bi-weekly IRC meetings and the mailing list to communicate, and our wiki page for static lists has served us well.
<Yasumoto> We're a little hindered in California because of the size of the state, it makes it difficult to get everyone together.
<Flannel> Grantbow> QUESTION: which wiki pages have been most helpful to you in peparing for conferences?  such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConferenceTopTips and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoComputerFairHowto
<Yasumoto> good question, I actually haven't seen the Fair howto before
<Yasumoto> I think I skimmed those pages, but didn't really get much help from them. I'm planning on distilling a lot of the info from this talk into updating the wiki pages a bit.
<Yasumoto> But there's also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConferenceAppearances
<Yasumoto> Which is where you should list that your LoCo will be at the conference
<Yasumoto> This is mainly a history, and also helps to prevent groups from stepping on each other's toes
<Yasumoto> There's also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<Yasumoto> Which has some information about some support from Canonical for LoCos at conferences, which is nice
<Flannel> Alright, so.
<Flannel> We've already learned a bit on how to set up and plan for a conference.
<Flannel> But what do we want to plan for our booth?
<Flannel> The purpose of the booth is to increase awareness and get the word out (and to have fun!)
<Flannel> So we want to make sure whatever we plan fits those needs.
<Flannel> Another thing to remember is you'll be dealing with hundreds of people over the course of the day,
<Flannel> all of whom have different interests, needs, and levels of knowledge about Ubuntu (and linux).
<Flannel> You need to make sure people are engaged, and information is available.
<Flannel> How you do this is up to you, there's almost no wrong way to do it.
<Flannel> What we always end up doing is fairly simple and straight forward:
<Flannel> We have a few computers open to the public for people to play with,
<Flannel> and we also have CDs to give out.
<Flannel> (and then of course, we're around to talk with people)
<Flannel> For actual schwag type stuff, we rely almost entirely on the LoCo conference pack from Canonical. ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences )
<Flannel> It provides an assortment of pens, flyers, stickers, and some t-shirts.
<Flannel> We usually give the shirts to people who will be working the booth.
<Flannel> In the past we've also purchased a bunch of hats, so people working the booth have a distinguishing feature.
<Flannel> One other thing we do is make nametags for everyone working the booth : http://www.nhaines.com/ubuntu/california/
<Flannel> These will help people walking by know who to ask for information, and can provide a little more incentive for people to help out.
<Flannel> Another thing we've found works well is the way we organize our booth.
<Flannel> Many booths have two walls and a table in front, people sit behind the table and talk to you with the table littered with items.
<Flannel> What we've been lucky enough to do, is to put our tables near the walls of our booth (we actually make a U, with the opening towards the aisle)
<Flannel> and then we stand inside/in front of our booth, and talk to people.
<Flannel> It provides a really welcoming atmosphere (and gives us a little more room)
<Flannel> (We
<Flannel> (we're seeing about getting you a picture of that, but in the meantime)
<Flannel> Again, you want to make sure you're there to talk with a whole range of people.  And yes, some people will be there just to get a sticker or a CD, or whatever.
<Flannel> Earlier we had a question about whether we do installfests at a conference.
<Flannel> It wouldn't really be a good idea at the booth, since it'll be busy and there will be a lot of people around.
<Flannel> If you have individuals who want to install, it might be best to take them aside and do it one-on-one
<Flannel> The same goes, as we found last time, for bug jams
<Flannel> We tried to do a bug jam (as part of Global Bug Jam) in a separate room from the expo, and it didn't turn out so well.
<Flannel> People at conferences want to experience the conference, not do bugwork as we've found.
<Flannel> We've only got five minutes left, and we haven't covered nearly as much as we hoped we would.
<Yasumoto> Here's a picture of the booth from SCaLE6x: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathanhaines/2353642188/
<Flannel> I'm going to go ahead and open it up to questions.  And then touch base on a few more things while we wrap this up.
<Flannel> In that image-We put demo computers on the yellow table, facing left (out), for people to play with.
<Flannel> CDs-- We give out burned ones.  No one seems to have an issue with it.
<Flannel> To make them look a little better, we've made some sleeves that we print and fold up, and slide the CDs into.
<Flannel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/CDSleeves
<Yasumoto> Having Yellow, Red, and Orange table cloths really helped the booth stand out, and were pretty cheap
<Flannel> It basically hides our horrible handwriting on the CD itself, and provides some information on the CD itself (as opposed to a plastic jacket or whatever).
<Flannel> We burn CDs at the conference, because it allows us to give people what they want (we get a lot of Edubuntu actually)
<Flannel> We're currently writing software to faciliate this, make it almost hands-free.  But it's not working yet.
<Flannel> We've found that with two burners, you can generally keep up with a conference.
<Flannel> Anyway, we're running out of time.  We'd be more than happy to talk with you later if you have questions or comments or want to discuss things.
<Flannel> genii> QUESTION: What do we do if our LoCo team seems inactive but we want to hold/participate in conferences?'
<Flannel> We've successfully run a booth with four people, so if you can get a dedicated core group, you'll be fine.  (You can run it with two, but you don't really want to be there solid all day)
<Flannel> Need to eat, etc.
<nhaines> Make every attempt to contact your LoCo, but if that fails, gather some friends together and do it!
<Yasumoto> Thanks a bunch for listening, get out there and Spread Ubuntu :)
<Flannel> Again, thank you all for coming.  You can find us in #ubuntu-california among other places.
<charlie-tca> And, next we have chris Gregan with OEM Community Netbook Testing
<cgregan> Hello All
<ActionParsnip> howdy
<cgregan> Can we get a channel topic change?
<kenvandine_wk> i tried
<kenvandine_wk> didn't let me
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1800 UTC: OEM Netbook Testing ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kenvandine_wk> great
<cgregan> Excellent!
<cgregan> Ok
<cgregan> A little background
<cgregan> I am the QA Manager for the OEM Services Team in Canonical
<cgregan> For those of you not familiar
<cgregan> we customize Ubuntu Desktop
<cgregan> For release as pre-installed systems on Netbooks and MIDs
<cgregan> Our recent releases were Dell minis
<cgregan> and HP mini
<cgregan> We provide custom interface design and hardware enablement as well as maintenance after the fact for end users
<cgregan> which brings us to the reason for this session
<cgregan> I have been organizing an effort to build a community of testers with netbooks to provide a review stage before we push security updates and fixes
<cgregan> [link] https://launchpad.net/~oem-community-qa
<cgregan> This is our team page in LP
<cgregan> The goal is to have more eyes on these proposed fixes before the general public sees them
<cgregan> So we can continue to maintain a high level of quality as the number of netbooks rapidly expands over the next year
<cgregan> So...how do we do this
<cgregan> The team is associated with a mailing list and a proposed repo
<cgregan> When you join you get the sources.list entries and updates from the list on approaching releases
<cgregan> Who are we looking for.....
<cgregan> Anyone with a Dell mini9, 12, or 10 that came with Ubuntu pre-installed
<cgregan> Anyone with UNR installed on a netbook
<cgregan> And as the number of shipping units grows, anyone who has one
<cgregan> The process...once you are joined up is familiar
<cgregan> Add the proposed repos to your sources.list
<cgregan> update
<cgregan> and report problems
<cgregan> there are projects established for bugs as well
<cgregan> Dell users have https://launchpad.net/dell-mini
<cgregan> UNR has two
<cgregan> https://launchpad.net/netbook-remix   for general issues with the release
<cgregan> https://launchpad.net/netbook-remix-launcher  for issues just with the custom launcher/desktop
<cgregan> We also encourage triage, fix submission, and any other activity that would help
<cgregan> Ubuntu is growing rapidly in the netbook range and we expect MANY more devices shipping with Ubuntu
<cgregan> Any effort to lend a hand would be very appreciated
<cgregan> In addition to those of you with devices already.....there has also been interest in growing a core team of triagers and tester who would be provided devices in exchange for a commitment
<cgregan> This idea has been used before by Canonical, and I am exploring this as an option here as well.
<cgregan> Keep and eye on the ubuntu-testing channel for details
<cgregan> No promises :-)
<cgregan> I'm am also soliciting ideas from the community for general improvements to our shipping images
<cgregan> If you do not want to necessarily connect to a proposed repo and test
<cgregan> you can help out with usability bugs, proposed additions to our base applications
<cgregan> suggestions on new features
<cgregan> all of which can be entered in the LP projects listed above
<cgregan> So I'd like to pause here to see if there are any questions that have been prompted by what I've discussed so far
<cgregan> ali1234 has a question about the usefulness of UNR due to netbook power
<brianchidester> ali1234> QUESTION: given that the x86 netbooks are more powerful than the main workstations some people were using as little as two years ago, why is there a need for things like UNR?
<cgregan> UNR is not designed as a means to better performance
<cgregan> It is actually a full version of Ubuntu Desktop
<cgregan> it uses just as much in the way of resources as the normal distro release
<cgregan> The reason for UNR is screen realestate
<cgregan> and touch
<cgregan> Netbooks tend to have sub 9" screen
<brianchidester> QUESTION: Is this lp team intended only for oem versions of UNR, or also the generic UNR?
<cgregan> this makes it difficult from a user's standpoint to get to all of the icons and manipulate the environment
<cgregan> So we designed something with a larger UI
<cgregan> Next question is about the LP team
<cgregan> The team is designed for units that shipped with UNR or Dell desktop from the factory
<cgregan> With the recent major release of UNR by the distro team this has shifted a bit
<cgregan> Although I would like anyone with a netbook running UNR to join, our focus is on pre-installed systems
<cgregan> There is still some work on the shifting of responsibility for UNR from OEM to distro so I am still encouraging anyone to join the team and help out
<cgregan> There is another small quirk that this question bring up
<cgregan> There will be some units...the HP mini comes to mind...that there will be no public LP project or repo for
<cgregan> Users with this situation are encouraged to submit issues with the equipment manufacturer first
<cgregan> but
<cgregan> we will be happy to hear suggestions from them as well
<cgregan> basically we love feedback
<cgregan> it helps us design an build better systems
<cgregan> Any other questions? I am nearing the end of my prepared material
<cgregan> Ok.....
<cgregan> So there is one last aspect of this community effort that is a little different
<cgregan> We prefer positive response as well as bugs
<cgregan> So if you are a member
<cgregan> and you receive a notification email of updates for testing
<rufong> QUESTION: you mentioned Dell and HP, have you had contact with any other OEMs, contacted them? upcoming mass shipments with ubuntu?
<cgregan> We like +1 posted to the email list in response if the update had no problems
<cgregan> Or if you feel the update could still go out to the general user despite an issue
<brianchidester> <pwnguin> QUESTION: are there any tools volunteers can use to create automated test reports?
<cgregan> rufong: We are in contact with may ODM and OEM companies
<cgregan> unfortunately
<cgregan> I cannot mention anything about them until a product actually shipd
<cgregan> s/shipd/ships
<cgregan> due to legal obligations
<cgregan> But rest assured, you will be seeing more and more devices with Ubuntu in the near future
<cgregan> pwnguin: tools question
<cgregan> Automated test reports, I'm not sure I'm clear so I will answer both ways
<cgregan> Automated reports: there is currently no tools for producing reports
<cgregan> well...no approved tool being used...if you know of one I suggest you get in touch with me. I am always looking for new way to manage testing
<cgregan> Automated tools: We are beginning a large automation effort based around Checkbox
<cgregan> In co-ordination with the Distro QA team, we are using Apport, LDTP, and checkbox to create a comprehensive test suite
<cgregan> We could definitely use some help if anyone has some LDTP skills and a spare cycle or two
<cgregan> there is a wiki tracking the early efforts
<brianchidester> Is there a link for that?
<cgregan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/Desktop/Coverage
<brianchidester> rufong> QUESTION:do you feel Ubuntu is/is becoming the goto OS for netbooks?
<cgregan> rufong: Good question....and a difficult one to answer
<cgregan> what I do know is that the market has changed from Canonical going to manufacturers trying to convince them to ship Ubuntu
<cgregan> To a market where manufacturers are coming to Canonical trying to convince us to work with them on a product
<cgregan> We are also moving into spaces where other distros once had a foot hold
<cgregan> Whether or not that makes us the goto remains to be seen, but the pace of sales is advancing
<cgregan> Ok....I think that wraps it up for me
<cgregan> I'd like to encourage anyone help out as they see fit so we can continue to impress the average user and build a truly impressive resume' of netbooks shipping Ubuntu
<cgregan> Any last questions?
<cgregan> rufong
<cgregan> Touch is a growing area
<ActionParsnip> hey all
<cgregan> but we feel it is still a little ways off
<cgregan> we have support built in, and are waiting for devices
<ActionParsnip> with netbooks usually having a small internal drive, is there a view to having smoe kind of package cleanup script post install to remove unnecessary packages
<okolotas> let's figth ! http://chucknorrrris.mybrute.com
<cgregan> ActionParsnip: funny you ask
<charlie-tca> 5 minute warning
<cgregan> I recently entered a bug pointing out that Update-manager does not run cleanup by default
<ActionParsnip> i've noticed that large amounts of data are wasted by ubuntu with a lot of drivers that simply dont apply to the system, for example a system with an nvidia video card has no need for an intel video drivers etc
<cgregan> So we will be looking at that
<ActionParsnip> i personally have my own script to carve out what i dont need and can get a full system off 2.7Gb right now
<cgregan> ActionParsnip: this is the kind of issues we would like to see in our LP projects as bugs
<ActionParsnip> i'll do it when i get time, and im sober
<ActionParsnip> can we please change the default setup to put home on a seperate partition in some way too
<charlie-tca> ActionParsnip: questions and comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ActionParsnip> i see
<ActionParsnip> so is this like a lecture room?
<charlie-tca> yes
<ActionParsnip> gotcha
<charlie-tca> TWO minutes
<cgregan> I'll answer that though
<cgregan> We are often subject to the requirements of the customer
<cgregan> in most cases they require a specific setup for partitioning
<cgregan> where we can we promote better setup
<cgregan> but often we have no say
<cgregan> Thanks everyone
<charlie-tca> Announcing the great Ben-Crisford giving and introduction to Gaming with Ubuntu next
<charlie-tca> As usual, please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<charlie-tca> s/and/an
<charlie-tca> Ben-Crisford: whenever you are ready
<jcastro> ok, the chanserv is offline so we can't change the topic, so let's just drive on
<Ben-Crisford> ok :)
<Ben-Crisford> Hello everyone
<Ben-Crisford> This session is gonna be all about gaming under ubuntu
<Ben-Crisford> ubuntu wasn't designed for games, and most games werent designed for ubuntu
<Ben-Crisford> so it was always gonna be tricky
<Ben-Crisford> but gaming under ubuntu is very possible
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<Ben-Crisford> as there is alot of different topics to do with gaming with ubuntu, my session will have a number of categories
<Ben-Crisford> there will be a short QA at the end of each one, and a longer QA at the end
<Ben-Crisford> so lets start off by talking about emulation
<Ben-Crisford> emulation, is where ubuntu kind of "pretends" its windows, in order for it to run games or applications
<Ben-Crisford> i am only gonna scrape the surface of emulation as the session after me (i believe) covers it in more detail
<YokoZar> beep beep boop boop: I'll be talking more about Wine in the session after this :)
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<Ben-Crisford> for the purposes of my session today
<Ben-Crisford> we will be talking about playonlinux
<Ben-Crisford> which is based on wine heavily
<Ben-Crisford> before I begin, does anyone have any questions, or requests of topics for me to mention?
<Ben-Crisford> please say them in ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Ben-Crisford> i'm hoping that means i can continue
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<Ben-Crisford> the website for playonlinux is: www.playonlinux.com
<Ben-Crisford> to install playonlinux simply type these following lines into terminal:
<Ben-Crisford> sudo wget http://deb.mulx.net/playonlinux_hardy.list -O /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
<Ben-Crisford> playonlinux.list
<Ben-Crisford> wget -q http://deb.mulx.net/pol.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
<Ben-Crisford> sudo apt-get update
<Ben-Crisford> sudo apt-get install playonlinux
<Ben-Crisford> but obviously that depends on your distrorelease
<Ben-Crisford> http://www.playonlinux.com/en/download.html
<Ben-Crisford> click ubuntu to get a list of download methods for each release
<Ben-Crisford> POL (playonlinux) is pretty self-explanatary
<Ben-Crisford> once installed, there will be a shortcut in Accessories> Games
<Ben-Crisford> or you can run by typing 'playonlinux' into terminal
* maco changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 1900 UTC: Gaming on Ubuntu ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Ben-Crisford> i imagine alot of you play valve games
<Ben-Crisford> (CSS, half life, day of defeat, left 4 dead)
<Ben-Crisford> i personally only have CSS
<Ben-Crisford> but I can run it with hardly any trouble
<Ben-Crisford> launching through steam
<Ben-Crisford> which i installed through playonlinux
<Ben-Crisford> that is about it for our very-short emulation category
<Ben-Crisford> as i dont want to invade the territory of the next session
<Ben-Crisford> feel free to ask any questions you may have in the next few minutes
<Ben-Crisford> and i will do my best to answer
<Ben-Crisford> some other emulators include...:  CEDEGA, ScummVM, and of course wine which will be covered in the next session :)
<charlie-tca> Do you want me to pass the questions over to here/
<Ben-Crisford> QUESTION: do you have anything coming up for people who don't like FPS games? :P
<Ben-Crisford> charlie-tca: that would be fantastic
<Ben-Crisford> ill just answer this one
<Ben-Crisford> ANSWER: Sorry if I was confusing
<Ben-Crisford> playonlinux is not just for fps :P
<Ben-Crisford> and many racing games/platform games will launch through steam also
<charlie-tca> <chewit> QUESTION: why is using playonlinux any better from just using wine to sort out the configuration of your games
<Ben-Crisford> to be honest, i dont fully understand, as im sure not many do apart from the POL developers
<Ben-Crisford> but
<Ben-Crisford> on there website they say this:
<Ben-Crisford> PlayOnLinux is based on Wine, and so profits from all its possibilities yet it keeps the user away from its complexity while exploiting some of its advanced functions.
<Ben-Crisford> and if you want to debate that comment
<Ben-Crisford> then im not the person, you should contact the POL team
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> <Sealbhach> How much of a performance loss do you get playing through Steam?
<Ben-Crisford> hmm, its hard to say...
<Ben-Crisford> because you still play through steam on windows, its just that steam is still essentially running the game
<Ben-Crisford> i admit, that my PC gets probably hotter than usual
<Ben-Crisford> but i have suffered a performance loss anyway recently
<Ben-Crisford> which im trying to fix
<Ben-Crisford> so...  i cant really say
<Ben-Crisford> sorry
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> <slayer666> QUESTION: in most opengl games, theres no mouse cursor. used driver is fglrx. what could be the problem?
<mikechelen> some xwindows thing
<Ben-Crisford> i'm no emulator developer...  i just know the essential idea behind them, maybe save that question for Scott Richie in the net question
<Ben-Crisford> sorry scott if you dont know either
<Ben-Crisford> :S
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> Maybe that should have a bug report files?
<Ben-Crisford> playonlinux?
<mikechelen> try another driver version maybe? envyng sometimes helps
<Ben-Crisford> im quite anxious to move on if thats ok guys
<Ben-Crisford> after all next session is entirely about emulation
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<Ben-Crisford> to finish off
<Ben-Crisford> ill talk about free and open source games
<Ben-Crisford> but first
<charlie-tca> <SiDi> QUESTION : any news about idTech5 for Linux / Wolfeinstein / Rage / Doom 4 native clients ? :-)
<Ben-Crisford> im sorry -  i dont know :(, i dont follow those projects
<Ben-Crisford> but i think there is an ubuntu gaming team recently formed
<Ben-Crisford> at #ubuntu-gaming
<Ben-Crisford> same server
<Ben-Crisford> they might know more than me =]
<Ben-Crisford> anyway, charlie-tca i think we should move on now
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<charlie-tca> Yes,
<Ben-Crisford> but
<Ben-Crisford> feel free to ask emulation questions in the main QA at the end
<Ben-Crisford> yesterday (so very short notice) i asked michael sierks and chewit to say a few words abot their projects
<Ben-Crisford> they have very kindly agreed
<Ben-Crisford> michael sierks is the founder of spux project, and chewit (i believe is the founder, correct me if im wrong) of gfire
<Ben-Crisford> so
<Ben-Crisford> im going to invite michael sierks to introduce his project briefly
<msierks> All you WOW players may want to pay close attention :)
<msierks> Spux is an open source voip client which implements the Ventrilo 3.0 Protocol
<msierks> Our objective is to bring users a reliable voip client for Linux
<msierks> Wine and Ventrilo do work together some of the time, but it is buggy and is prone to breaking
<msierks> So Spux was born and has been under development for some time in order to meet Linux users needs
<msierks> It is still under heavy development we hope to have something working within a few months
<msierks> Spux needs funding and developers are welcome, If interested visit http://www.spuxproject.net/ or go to #spux
<msierks> that about does it :)
<Ben-Crisford> thank you very much msierks
<Ben-Crisford> especially at such short notice
<Ben-Crisford> perhaps you could answer some questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat now :)
<Ben-Crisford> that would be fantastic thank you
<Ben-Crisford> while the questions go on in chat...  chewit from gfire is going to talk about gfire :)
<chewit> ok, thanks
<chewit> Gfire is a plugin for the Pidgin IM client which allows the user to connect to the Xfire chat network.
<chewit> if your not sure what Xfire is, its a very popular chat network for PC gamers.
<chewit> it allows them to chat with their friends inside games, join friend's games and keep track of their gaming hours
<chewit> basically, xfire is like Xbox Live for PC
<chewit> if you want to see more from Xfire, go to xfire.com
<chewit> the problem with xfire is that it is a windows only client
<chewit> and Gfire is currently the only linux client for xfire
<chewit> We believe it is important that we give support to gamers, who want to move to linux, that they have their Xfire chat still working, to make it easier for them to switch over.
<chewit> So basically, we provide almost all the same features as Xfire in the Pidgin client
<chewit> chat, group chat, clan support, track gaming hours
<chewit> sadly, due to limitations with pidgin, we can not "yet"  allow the user to chat ingame
<chewit> and that is pretty much Gfire
<chewit> go to gfire.sf.net or #gfire for more info
<Ben-Crisford> thank you very much chewit ;)
<Ben-Crisford> i believe there are some questions awaiting you
<Ben-Crisford> good luck, and while they are going on, ill talk about FOSS games :)
<Ben-Crisford> FOSS stands for free and opensource
<Ben-Crisford> ubuntu is a great example of FOSS software
<Ben-Crisford> so what FOSS games are there?
<Ben-Crisford> well, you all have them installed
<Ben-Crisford> if you goto Accessories> Games
<Ben-Crisford> you have chess...  nibbles... they are FOSS games
<Ben-Crisford> Also if you go to Accessories> Add/remove programs and click 'Games'
<Ben-Crisford> they should all be FOSS
<Ben-Crisford> there are games in add/remove programs for everyone :)
<Ben-Crisford> from "Abes amazing adventure" to "Supertux Kart"
<Ben-Crisford> from "Pingus" to "Advanced strategic command"
<Ben-Crisford> but dont make the mistake of thinking these are the only FOSS games for ubuntu you can get
<mikechelen> openarena and warzone 2100 are pretty fun
<Ben-Crisford> you can download many FOSS games online
<Ben-Crisford> today we're gonna talk about cube
<Ben-Crisford> which is one of the most popular
<Ben-Crisford> and certainly my favourite
<Ben-Crisford> when playing cube, you can edit the map at any time (when in single player)
<Ben-Crisford> and create new maps
<Ben-Crisford> if you think the pingus map editor is fun, sauerbraten (cube 2)'s map editor will transfix you
<Ben-Crisford> http://sauerbraten.org/
<Ben-Crisford> you can download cube 2 from there
<Ben-Crisford> as I thought you guys would be interested by the editor
<Ben-Crisford> i made a quick tutorial on using it
<Ben-Crisford> at: http://sauerbraten.org/
<Ben-Crisford> oops :P
<Ben-Crisford> im always CP'in the wrong links
<Ben-Crisford> tutorial at: http://bencrisford.exofire.net/cube-editing.txt
<Ben-Crisford> cube download at: http://sauerbraten.org/
<Ben-Crisford> anyway, we're running out of time, so we'll swiftly move on to the final QA
<Ben-Crisford> ask any questions now, and pray that i can answer
<Ben-Crisford> i certainly am!
<charlie-tca> <YokoZar> QUESTION: any followup to this:
<charlie-tca> <YokoZar> (11:54:20 AM) jcastro: <vensign> QUESTION: What do you think is the importance of FOSS gaming for the adoption of Ubuntu?
<charlie-tca> <YokoZar> (11:54:55 AM) sabdfl: vensign: i don't have any good ideas for how to drive FOSS gaming forward
<Ben-Crisford> well...  FOSS gaming is important, obviously because ubuntu is also FOSS
<Ben-Crisford> FOSS and Ubuntu are like cream and cheesecake
<Ben-Crisford> they are meant to be!
<Ben-Crisford> it is important because...
<Ben-Crisford> many people adopt ubuntu because of the philosophy
<Ben-Crisford> and FOSS games also support that philosophy
<Ben-Crisford> i could talk about this all day :P
<Ben-Crisford> but we better move on
<charlie-tca> <ali1234> QUESTION: sauerbraten editor is an interesting idea... do you think anyone will ever make something other than an FPS (with perhaps a few RPG elements) out of it?
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<Ben-Crisford> erm...
<Ben-Crisford> i think that it would be tricky
<Ben-Crisford> because with an fps game
<Ben-Crisford> you just walk around and shoot essentially
<Ben-Crisford> but with for instance a racing game
<Ben-Crisford> alot of elements have to be there
<Ben-Crisford> and have to be perfect....
<Ben-Crisford> but with many'a platform games they already exist
<Ben-Crisford> for example pingus - in the repos - has a map editor
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> <artir> QUESTION: Is any initiative planned by canonical regarding creating a standard platform for linux native gaming? (I mean a set of API'S, such as directx, but standarized)
<Ben-Crisford> i am not a canonical employee so i couldnt say
<Ben-Crisford> if anyone knows
<Ben-Crisford> please speak up :)
<charlie-tca> <chewit> QUESTION: can i plug my monthly FCM section, ubuntu games
<mikechelen> Sidi mentioned, SiDi> artir: openGL openAL openCL SDL
<Ben-Crisford> chewit: FCM?  sorry =S
<chewit> Full Circle Magazine
<SiDi> I meant that the APIs for cross-platform gaming were already quite consistent, and that it was more a concern of developer habits than lack of technical possibilities *
<Ben-Crisford> chewit: Oh of course, im sorry what is it you mean by plug?
<chewit> to.... let people know about it, since it relates to Ubuntu Gaming
<Ben-Crisford> let people know about FOSS?
<Ben-Crisford> sorry :P =S
<Ben-Crisford> ill talk to you after maybe?
<Ben-Crisford> as were running out of time
<Ben-Crisford> :)
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> I am thinking let people know to look for gaming articles in Full Circle Magazine
<charlie-tca> <MBoogsW> QUESTION:  I have put quite a bit of money into a decent gaming machine and it is the only thing keeping me from switching over completely....Based on your experience, How much of a performance degradation have you noticed playing commercial games like source games and WoW?
<Ben-Crisford> Hmm,  well i spend 1000 quid on my laptop wanting it to run games
<Ben-Crisford> i dont play WoW
<Ben-Crisford> but from my experiences playing counter strike, I can barely tell the difference....
<Ben-Crisford> perhaps my computer is a little warmer, but i can hardly notice it if it is
<Ben-Crisford> and once you're full time on ubuntu, the small things like that really dont matter
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> <Sealbhach> Question: any plans for a punkbuster in say, Urban Terror.?
<SiDi> It is impossible to have Punkbuster via wine/pol, by the way. It has to be a native client. (ETQW has PunkBuster for instance)
<Ben-Crisford> well im a QW developer
<Ben-Crisford> im no*
<Ben-Crisford> lol i really screwed that up
<Ben-Crisford> im no QW developer*
<Ben-Crisford> Sealbhach that would be a question for quakewars forums
<Ben-Crisford> or the QW developers
<Ben-Crisford> next?
<charlie-tca> And, if everyone wants to stay, we have a fantastic session on "Wine and Free Gaming" with YokoZar next.
<Ben-Crisford> yeab
<Ben-Crisford> yeah*
<charlie-tca> that's all the questions we have time for now.
<Ben-Crisford> ok :)
<Ben-Crisford> thank you very much for your time everyone
<Ben-Crisford> happy ubuntu'ing!
<charlie-tca> Thanks, Ben-Crisford. That was a great session.
<Ben-Crisford> cheers
<charlie-tca> Also thanks to msierks and chewit
<Ben-Crisford> =]
<YokoZar> Is the topic change still broken?
 * charlie-tca don't know how to change it
<YokoZar> Anyway, thank you, and I may as well begin.
<YokoZar> First of all, my real life name is Scott Ritchie, and I'm responsible for Wine in Ubuntu.
<YokoZar> I'm a community developer, recently unemployed, and have decided to spend the next month getting Wine very attractive in preparation for the next Ubuntu Developer Summit
<YokoZar> I also wanted to talk a bit more about games, since I'm involved in quite a few games projects.  Feel free to pester #ubuntu-classroom-chat with any questions you have as they come to you, just put a big QUESTION in front so I can notice them easily.
<YokoZar> My main interest in Ubuntu is improving usability, and for many users Wine is their main stumbling block.  They need some Windows application to work.  Often it's something that there's no native equivalent for, like a big game or an internal corporate app or tax software
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2000 UTC: Wine and Gaming ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<YokoZar> I've even met a few Ubuntu developers who use Wine for purposes like this.
<YokoZar> At the moment Wine isn't very well integrated into Ubuntu - you have to install it specially, right click apps, open with Wine, and in many cases do various "shaman dances" to get them to work
<YokoZar> Every time I mention Wine or Ubuntu in some context, I inevitably have real potential users come up to me and say something to the effect of "If just this one application could work, if Wine were a little better, I would switch tomorrow"
<YokoZar> Making it easier to do that is one of my primary goals.  So, I've been working (and helping organize) work on a few really sweet looking projects to make Wine well integrated into the Ubuntu desktop - a first class citizen - and I'm going to show them off in Barcelona at the end of the month
<YokoZar> However doing this presents a challenge as well - Wine isn't yet perfect, so when we do integrate it we have the paradoxical goal of making it both easy to install/use and also lowering user expectations about how well it will work.
<YokoZar> If you used Ubuntu back in the Feisty days (7.04), you may remember how when you went to enable desktop effects you were presented with a bit of a disclaimer about how they were more of a technology demo than 100% ready
<YokoZar> But by 7.10 and the Gutsy release, desktop effects became a well-integrated, expected (albeit optional) part of the desktop.
<YokoZar> I imagine a similar path for Wine
<YokoZar> So, let's talk a bit more about Wine in general, in particular what the community can do
<YokoZar> We now have a dedicated Wine forum on the Ubuntu forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=313
<YokoZar> As you can see it's one of the most active and popular forums out there
<YokoZar> Wine is a very common item to install - something like 50% of users have it installed last I checked popcon, and 10% have used it within the past week
<YokoZar> And this may be a gross underestimate, since popcon doesn't generally contain Wubi users, who are obviously more likely to need windows applications
<YokoZar> One fairly common question I see regards the role of Codeweavers Crossover product line
<YokoZar> Codeweavers is the main steward of the Wine project.  Every paid developer is employed by them, and something like 70% of all patches come from them
<YokoZar> However, the lead developer, Julliard, doesn't really work on Crossover specifically; he instead focuses on improving Wine long term.
<YokoZar> QUESTION: surely wubi users would be less likely to need wine since they have a windows installation?
<YokoZar> You're right in that they already have a dual boot setup, however most Wubi users will try Wine before dual booting because it's a hassle.  If it works for them, they're much more likely to make Ubuntu permanent.
<charlie-tca> <zhurai> Question: how would you play localized games (like Japanese games) on wine. I believe I tried wineloc guide (CJK guide) but didn't work out for me
<YokoZar> Ahh yeah
<YokoZar> Wine's support for localization in other languages is a bit spotty, especially when it involves fonts that we don't have
<YokoZar> Hence you'll encounter some guides that ask you to do various shaman dances like install windows native fonts and specify locale settings
<YokoZar> Honestly your best bet is the users forum (either the ubuntu wine forum or the wine-users mailing list or the forums at winehq.org)
<YokoZar> The latter two are actually the same, linked together through a clever piece of mailing list-> forum software
<YokoZar> QUESTION: Do you envisage Wine coming pre-installed on Ubuntu? What about people who don't want Wine for maybe ideological or maybe security reason? e.g. fear of downloading Windows malware that can run in Wine?
<YokoZar> No I don't.  I imagine Wine only being installed when the user indicates they need it, such as by trying to open an executable file
<YokoZar> That's a great place to inform them that they're opening a Windows application, that we can try to do it with Wine, and that it might not work
<YokoZar> This is very similar to what happens when you try to open a movie file without the right codec
<YokoZar> We don't ship them by default, but they're very accessible to users with a simple install setup
<YokoZar> Writing and polishing an equivalent for Wine is part of my tasks for this month leading up to the developer summit
<YokoZar> That install prompt would need to be installed by default, of course
<YokoZar> There's a few other bits of software that should be there before Wine is installed as well.  For instance, most windows executables have built in icons, but you can't see them in Gnome without some particularly clever scripting magic
<YokoZar> That's something we can fix that doesn't involve Wine directly, per se
<YokoZar> However letting the user know that the application they're opening will require Wine is important too
<YokoZar> We can do this through special icons
<YokoZar> back to codeweavers for a moment
<YokoZar> There is no dedicated "Wine foundation" or equivalent yet
<YokoZar> There's a Wine developer fund, but it's not actively advertised
<YokoZar> The fund was used to sponsor plane flights/hotel rooms for the last Wine developer conference (myself included)
<YokoZar> I've been considering holding a fundraiser to replenish the losses
<YokoZar> But there's no central organization other than Codeweavers directing this sort of thing as of yet
<YokoZar> QUESTION : i suppose we could get this to Xubuntu easily too, right ?
<YokoZar> (~ wine installer)
<YokoZar> Yes, it should be a relatively simple app.  Work with me during the Karmic cycle and we'll see if we can get Kubuntu/Xubuntu working as well as Ubuntu for the user who hasn't had wine installed
<YokoZar> Most of the tools to control this stuff are command line python scripts, so all that's needed is a front-end.  That could be customized for the desktop environment depending on their different goals
<YokoZar> sebsebseb: QUESTION:  Wine config and such is not that user friendly to configure for apps that don't just work,  so  why dosn't someone work on a nice user friendly  GUI (Graphical User Interface)  that configures apps for people?  Codeweavers have  done nice GUI's, but they aren't what I meant.
<YokoZar> It's a great question
<YokoZar> There have been more than a few third party projects trying to do just that
<YokoZar> Playonlinux is the latest example
<YokoZar> Before that there were things like winetools
<sebsebseb> YokoZar: yeah, but there should be one as part of Wine really :)
<YokoZar> In an ideal world, however, Wine shouldn't need any configuration at all.  There's no reason a user should have to worry about selecting a sound driver or whatever
<YokoZar> or worse, messing with native DLLs
<YokoZar> or saying he wants to enable/disable GLSL or pixelshader support or all the other shaman dances winecfg lets you do
<YokoZar> (or even worse, editing the registry manually)
<YokoZar> That said, just about all of this configuration represents open bugs in Wine
<YokoZar> Users configure sound drivers because the ALSA driver isn't yet perfect (or the system pulseaudio isn't)
<YokoZar> So the Wine upstream philosophy is to focus on just fixing these sorts of bugs rather than letting users go to elaborate workarounds
<YokoZar> However, there is some configuration that will be inevitable
<YokoZar> And that's where I step in
<YokoZar> For instance, even on Windows you sometimes need to specify a Windows version to emulate with an application
<YokoZar> On Vista, for instance, you can right click an executable and go to the compatibility mode tab, then tell it to act like Windows XP
<YokoZar> This is functionality we'll need for Wine, which is why I'm working on getting it done in much the same way - right click the executable, go to a new Windows Program tab, then tell it you want to run in win98 mode or whatever
<YokoZar> We can also put functionality there that Wine is capable of that Windows itself isn't (or doesn't make easy)
<YokoZar> For instance forcing a "full screen" game into a window
<YokoZar> For instance you can play Diablo 2 in a little window on your desktop despite the game declaring itself as full screen in Wine, however currently this requires an annoying terminal command
<YokoZar> That's exactly the kind of "inevitable configuration" I want to make really easy.  Another volunteer and I are polishing off the back end to this, and I'm going to be giving the front end a very close look with a nice UI
<YokoZar> So, in the long run, I don't see much of a role for these third party tools like Play on Linux, as installing a game should be as simple as it is on windows - just double click the installer
<YokoZar> (or, if it's a CD with autorun, just put it in, click open autorun, and then click install)
<YokoZar> (01:38:21 PM) genii: QUESTION: Have you seen the ReactOS and if so, what opinions may you have formed?
<YokoZar> I've seen it, and I think it's an interesting concept, however I believe that Ubuntu itself offers a much better user experience for much the same reason that I believe our default desktop can be superior to Windows
<YokoZar> ReactOS has a well-integrated Wine, obviously, however in principle there's no reason that Wine+Linux can't be any more compatible
<YokoZar> (01:42:16 PM) sebsebseb: QUESTION: 3D  Directx games keep  gamers on Windows big time,  because  virtulization (virtual machines) won't cut it yet and neither will Wine.  Is proper 3D Directx 10 support being worked on for Wine?
<YokoZar> DirectX 10 is being worked on in Wine in very big ways
<YokoZar> perhaps more importantly, DirectX 9 is being continually polished as well
<YokoZar> If you look through the changelog of an arbitrary Wine release, you'll inevitably see about 20 or so patches having something to do with Direct3D
<YokoZar> DirectX10 support is one of the five "big things" that upstream is working on
<YokoZar> Julliard has said he'll start the release process so we can have a stable 1.2 release as soon as at least one "big thing" is ready enough
<YokoZar> Those are: DirectX 10 support, USB driver support (for eg ipods), Quartz driver (for mac), 64-bit support (for win64 apps), and the DIB Engine (for 2d apps to run well like AutoCAD and Starcraft)
<YokoZar> I'm really hoping one of those will get "done enough" in the next 4 months so that we can have a Wine 1.2 ready by Ubuntu Karmic
<YokoZar> (01:43:38 PM) rski: QUESTION: how did the release of vista affect wine , and how will win7 do it if it does.
<YokoZar> Not nearly as much as the release of Windows 98 and Windows XP, actually
<YokoZar> There's a suggestion that Wine is fighting a "moving target" and will thus never be done, always one step behind Windows
<YokoZar> But Wine isn't targetting windows per se - it's targetting the applications people use
<YokoZar> It took until about 2005 before we started seeing substantial numbers of XP-only applications
<YokoZar> Similarly it'll be a long time before we start seeing a lot of Vista-only applications
<YokoZar> So from a user's perspective, it'll be ok if Wine doesn't implement vista-specific APIs for a while
<YokoZar> More encouragingly, Microsoft themselves has very few ways they can keep changing the API
<YokoZar> They've already written most of it, and application developers are already using that.  Switching to new API functions implies both learning something new and breaking existing windows-version compatibility
<YokoZar> So Microsoft's rate of change is slowing down dramatically.  And Wine development speed is also increasing as we get way more users and more developers.  So we're catching up, fast.
<YokoZar> I'm reminded of a blog post I made recently: http://yokozar.org/blog/archives/48
<YokoZar> The idea there was that Wine's usefulness will increase upwards sharply as it approaches "almost done"
<YokoZar> similarly, Ubuntu adoption can increase sharply after Wine's usefulness increases.  If 80% of users can't switch because of some Windows application holding them back, then an easy to use functional Wine would literally quintuple our user base
<YokoZar> (01:51:12 PM) rski: QUESTION: Wine is a very different project compared to other opensource projects, someday all games will be native but think of the hours of coding wine will be wasted and in the past :)
<YokoZar> I find this idea interesting for a few reasons
<YokoZar> The first is that no one is going to rewrite the tens of thousands of old Windows applications out there that people use in various niche circumstances.  Sometimes there is literally no source code to port.
<YokoZar> So Wine will have a use case regardless, even if we have all new apps being written for Linux and solve bug #1
<YokoZar> But, if we think about it, there really is no reason that Wine should be thought of as any different from any other system library, like GTK
<YokoZar> Other than current deficiencies with Wine, there's no reason that an application HAS to be ported using a complete rewrite into a "native" library - Wine runs natively too, and with some relatively minor tweaks we can completely hide the underlying win32 from the user such that they don't even know they're running Wine
<charlie-tca> 5 minute warning
<YokoZar> If you've used Google Picassa, it's a first approximation of this approach.  There's still a few bugs in Wine that it runs into (eg theming), but from the user's perspective it's just a normal ubuntu package
<YokoZar> rski: QUESTION: when using and developing wine, what is the most usual wall to hit. X not being to handle? the kernel missing stuff? or just hard to figure out what windows does
<YokoZar> It's figuring out what Windows does
<YokoZar> The API is complete crap
<YokoZar> And the documentation on MSDN is often worse
<YokoZar> (if existant)
<YokoZar> So instead we have to write elaborate test cases that show what applications are actually expecting, find that they want different things on 8 different versions of widnows, and then code to them
<YokoZar> In theory, if Wine's test suite covered everything in the API well, we'd be about 90% done.  The main difficulty is figuring out what the functions want rather than how to give it to them
<YokoZar> so, I've got a few minutes left, so I'd like to talk briefly about a couple of hobby projects I'm in
<YokoZar> other than Wine
<YokoZar> The first is the game engine Spring
<YokoZar> Spring was originally written to be a remake of the game Total Annihilation, but now you can play all sorts of mods on it (including some that just use the original total annihilation content)
<YokoZar> Some are completely free, however, and are suitable for packaging and inclusion in Ubuntu
<YokoZar> For instance, the game kernel panic: http://springrts.com/wiki/Kernel_Panic
<YokoZar> Which is very simple to pick up and easy to learn.  I'll invite you all to a game with me
<YokoZar> You'll need this PPA: https://edge.launchpad.net/~spring/+archive/ppa
<YokoZar> And to install the spring, springlobby, and spring-mods-kernelpanic packages
<YokoZar> The second project I'm involved in is just in the design phases, but it's based on my experience with lots of games
<YokoZar> It's called Glou, and it aims to be an open source game lounge
<sebsebseb> this was  one of the best ones,  and sadly comeing to an end soon
<YokoZar> https://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/glou/index.php?title=Main_Page
<YokoZar> Check in -chat for more kernel panic instructions ;)
<YokoZar> Quick principle from Glou:  Organizing a game to play should be easy, even if you don't know what it is yet.  The computer should help you play with your friends as well as it helps you talk to them.
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much, YokoZar. That was a terrific session.
<YokoZar> Cheers
<charlie-tca> Next, we have the always interesting "Ubuntu Kernel Questions and Answers" starring the fantastic ogasawara
<ogasawara> charlie-tca: thanks!
<ogasawara> Hi Everyone!  Welcome to the Kernel Q+A session.
<ogasawara> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I'm the Ubuntu kernel team's dedicated Kernel QA Engineer.
<ogasawara> I'm actually filling in for Pete Graner, the Ubuntu kernel team manager.  He was originally going lead this session.
<ogasawara> I work closely with the Ubuntu kernel team and try to keep an eye on the current Ubuntu kernel landscape as well as anything approaching on the horizon.
<ogasawara> That being said, for this Open Week session I'll try to touch on some of the highlights of the Jaunty Jackalope 9.04 kernel development cycle as well as topics to be discussed and lined up for the upcoming Karmic Koala 9.10 release.
<ogasawara> Here's a quick summary of what I'll get to today:
<ogasawara> 1) Mainline Kernel Builds
<ogasawara> 2) Better upstream kernel bugzilla to Launchpad bug linking
<ogasawara> 3) Kernel Config Sanity Review
<ogasawara> 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
<ogasawara> 5) Newer Kernel's on latest LTS release
<ogasawara> 6) Removal of LRM
<ogasawara> 7) Suspend Resume
<ogasawara> 8) HWDB Workshop
<ogasawara> 9) Sponsoring /staging drivers
<ogasawara> 10) Remove AUFS
<ogasawara> 11) Kernel Mode Setting
<ogasawara> 12) EXT4 by default
<ogasawara> 13) Improving Wifi
<ogasawara> 14) Remove AppArmor
<ogasawara> As you can see, we have quite a few items to cover.
<ogasawara> If you have any questions, please post them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  I'll try to field and answer them as best I can.
<ogasawara> Ok, lets get started!
<ogasawara> 1) Mainline Kernel Builds
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelMainlineBuilds
<ogasawara> Ahhh, this was one of my favorite highlights of the Jaunty development cycle.
<ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) the kernel team decided it would be beneficial to begin building mainline vanilla kernels.
<ogasawara> These mainline kernels are built from the unmodified upstream vanilla kernel source but use the Ubuntu kernel configuration files.
<ogasawara> These are then packaged as Ubuntu .deb files for easier installation.
<ogasawara> The advantage of providing these kernels for public consumption is they can often help isolate issues.
<ogasawara> Users can identify if a bug is either :  1) a result of a set of Ubuntu specific kernel patches, 2) fixed upstream, or 3) Exists upstream and the upstream kernel developers should be notified.
<ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team also generates an Ubuntu kernel version to Upstream kernel version mapping.
<ogasawara> It is a one to one mapping of which upstream kernel version the corresponding Ubuntu kernel version was based on.
<ogasawara> See http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/info/kernel-version-map.html
<ogasawara> It's useful for helping determine which upstream kernel version(s) may be of interest to test.
<ogasawara> Going forward into the Karmic development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team will continue to generate the upstream mainline kernel builds and encourage any testing.
<ogasawara> The 2.6.30-rc4 build is already available for those interested.
<ogasawara> QUESTION: In UDS Jaunty (or was it UDS Intrepid) somebody spoke about dropping i386 support and preserving i586 and i686. Is that still planned?
<ogasawara> artir: for karmic I believe there is plans for a generic 32 and 64 bit support
<ogasawara> artir: no i586 and i686 though
<ogasawara> moving on ...
<ogasawara> 2) Better upstream kernel bugzilla to Launchpad bug linking
<ogasawara> Obviously being able to test the latest upstream kernel is helpful when reporting bugs upstream.
<ogasawara> When a bug has been reported to the upstream bugzilla (kernel.bugzilla.org), an upstream bug watch can then be set from the Launchpad bug report to the upstream bug report.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches
<ogasawara> The upstream bug watch will allow bug subscribers to track the Launchpad bug report and also receive updates regarding any status changes in the upstream bug.
<ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS, communication also began between the upstream kernel bugzilla maintainers and the Launchpad team.
<ogasawara> The Launchpad team have developed a Launchpad plugin to notify bug subscribers of any comments posted in the upstream bug report and vice versa.
<ogasawara> The only issue is that the upstream kernel bugzilla needed to be updated to version 3.0 or newer in order to use the plugin.
<ogasawara> The upstream kernel bugzilla has since been updated to version 3.2.2.
<ogasawara> However, I'm unsure of the current status of the Launchpad plugin being installed.  I'm sure this will be followed up on during the Karmic development cycle.
<ogasawara> Also, for a broader view of the Ubuntu to upstream bug linkage, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/UpstreamReport
<ogasawara> next ...
<ogasawara> 3) Kernel Config Sanity Review
<ogasawara> At the Jaunty UDS the Ubuntu kernel team sat down and went through the entire Ubuntu kernel config.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/2.6.28-2-generic-config
<ogasawara> The purpose was to determine which features/drivers should be built in, enabled as a module, or disabled by default.
<ogasawara> Improving boot performance by having modules built in by default was also kept under consideration while reviewing these options.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/BootPerformance
<ogasawara> The resulting config then served as the generic config file that was used for the Jaunty kernels.
<ogasawara> Modifications were then made on a per request basis which usually came in the form of a bug report filed in Launchpad.
<ogasawara> The kernel config options for the upcoming Karmic release will likely be based on the final Jaunty kernel configs.
<ogasawara> As usual, kernel config options will continue to be re-examined on a per request basis.
<ogasawara> I'd also point you to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KarmicKernelFlavours for additional information.
<ogasawara> artir: ^^
<ogasawara> Ok, next item ...
<ogasawara> 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
<ogasawara> just a sec, am going to field a question really quick
<ogasawara> <KhaaL> QUESTION: Can we expect tailor-made config for UNR or MID editions, for example with a I/O scheduler that's more SSD friendly than cfq?
<ogasawara> KhaaL: unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that.  However, the kernel team hangs out in #ubuntu-kernel and could likely give you better info than I.
<sconklin> I can address that
<sconklin> I help maintain the kernels used for netbook devices.
<ogasawara> sconklin: sweet, take it away
<sconklin> We'll accept any requests for improvements. These usually come in the form of a bug report, and are addressed by the kernel team, with input from people who are ectually testing on the devices.
<sconklin> For SSD in particular, we (the kernel team) are beginning more testing of more devices, so I expect to see more attention paid to those.
<sconklin> that's all I have
<ogasawara> sconklin: thanks
<ogasawara> <kees> QUESTION: how does Ubuntu keep CONFIG options from getting lost between stable releases every 6 months?
<ogasawara> kees: good question.  typically the config for the next release is based on the previous
<ogasawara> kees: if however, something gets missed or dropped, please let us know!
<ogasawara> ok 4) Ubuntu Kernel Version
<pgraner> ogasawara: we do a review at UDS as well to make sure we don't drop things
<ogasawara> The upcoming Ubuntu Kernel Version is always a topic of discussion for every UDS.
<ogasawara> The 6 month Ubuntu release cycle is just long enough that it's entirely possible that one, if not two, upstream kernel releases will happen during a single Ubuntu release cycle.
<ogasawara> When deciding which upstream kernel version to converge on, the kernel team will take into account a few factors . . .
<ogasawara>  * When will the upstream release likely occur in relation to the Ubuntu development cycle.  Typically, it's better if the Ubuntu kernel is able to stabilize earlier in the cycle to have more time to test and fix bugs.
<ogasawara>  * The kernel team will also take into account the value of work in a newer upstream version.  They'll also consider the regression potential.
<ogasawara>  * They also have to look at the impact on the rest of the distribution.  If they decide to go with a newer kernel not only do they have to consider kernel specific regressions but also possible userspace regressions.
<ogasawara>  * They also try to determine a what point within the development cycle will they refuse to adopt a newer kernel version.  e.g. Alpha 3 milestone?
<ogasawara> However, with all the above taken into consideration, as you saw with the Intrepid release they bumped to the newer 2.6.27 kernel quite late in the cycle.
<ogasawara> With that said, at the upcoming Karmic UDS the kernel team will review if Karmic will converge on 2.6.30 or maybe 2.6.31
<ogasawara> This also leads into the following . . .
<ogasawara> 5) Newer Kernel's on latest LTS (Long Term Support) release
<ogasawara> Backporting a newer kernel to a LTS release was a topic of discussion at the previous UDS but nothing concrete was decided.
<ogasawara> As mentioned above, many of the factors taken into consideration for picking the actively developed kernel version apply to backporting a newer kernel to a previous release.
<ogasawara> Some additional items that also factor into the debate are:
<ogasawara> * Kernel team resources available to backport a newer kernel
<ogasawara>  * QA resources and hardware for testing
<ogasawara> * Incompatibilities between the newer kernel and older userspace
<ogasawara> * And as always, the fear of introducing new regressions
<ogasawara> Currently the Ubuntu kernel team has settled on pulling in the upstream stable patch sets (for ex. 2.6.28.x) as SRU's (Stable Release Updates).
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<ogasawara> For a Non-LTS release, the Ubuntu kernel team will continue to apply the upstream stable patch sets as SRU's for approximately 3-4 months following a release.
<ogasawara> After that initial 3-4 month period, they will cease merging the upstream stable patch sets and strictly focus on security fixes and critical bug fixes.
<ogasawara> For an LTS release, the upstream stable patch sets will be applied as SRU's for the duration of it's life.
<ogasawara> Security and critical bug fixes will carry on for the same duration as well.
<ogasawara> For more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelUpdates
<ogasawara> Next . . .
<ogasawara> 6) Removal of LRM (linux-restricted-modules)
<ogasawara> As some of you may recall, some drivers that had previously existed in the linux-restricted-modules package, eg. nvidia and fglrx, were removed and split out into their own respective DKMS style packages.
<ogasawara> For those that don't know, DKMS (Dynamic Kernel Module Support) is a framework that allows you to manage sources for modules.
<ogasawara> It allows modules to be automatically built against the kernel being installed.
<ogasawara> Generally, it provides the capability for users to run third party modules and have those modules stay in sync with a distro provided kernel.
<ogasawara> Ubuntu also uses DKMS for modules provided by vendors, especially those that contain a binary blob or other closed source portion (e.g. broadcom, fglrx, nvidia).
<ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team continues to encourage more use of DKMS, especially with regards to restricted modules.
<ogasawara> As such, for the upcoming Karmic release they are debating on removing the linux-restricted-modules package entirely.
<ogasawara> I believe the linux-restricted-modules package currently contains the madwifi and broadcom drivers.
<ogasawara> It's already been mentioned that the Ubuntu kernel team will not pull in any further updates for madwifi.
<ogasawara> Users are encouraged to instead use the free ath5k/ath9k drivers vs. the proprietary ath_pci driver.
<ogasawara> I've also heard broadcom will be removed from lrm as well.
<ogasawara> Final discussions will happen at the Karmic UDS, stay tuned . . .
<ogasawara> <phitoo> QUESTION: I like using OPENVZ and it's very disappointing that it's only provided in the 8.04 release. I am now using intrepid with the 8.04 kernel but my first attempt with jaunty has been a failure. Isn't there some way to provide an openvz kernel with each release?
<ogasawara> phitoo: not without someone from the community jumping in and helping out.
<ogasawara> <alanbell> QUESTION: how many watts does the LPIA kernel save? Or what other benefits are there for LPIA over the generic x86 build?
<ogasawara> alanbell: none, LPIA is identical to i386
<ogasawara> <kees> QUESTION: are there plans to have DKMS run during package install rather than at boot-time?  it would improve the first-boot-on-a-new-kernel experience (e.g. distro upgrades)
<ogasawara> kees:  not sure if this has been talked about yet.  I'll suggest they add it to their UDS topic list.
<ogasawara> ok next, else we'll run out of time . . .7) Suspend Resume
<ogasawara> Suspend and Resume (typically resume) continues to be problematic so the Ubuntu kernel team decided to make it a focus for the Jaunty development cycle.
<ogasawara> The kernel team had put together a suspend/resume test script which users could run to determine the stability of suspend/resume on their respective system(s).
<ogasawara> They also added hooks to apport to automatically detect and report suspend/resume failures to Launchpad.
<ogasawara> With Jaunty's Beta release a call for testing announcement was posted.
<ogasawara> See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-March/000556.html
<ogasawara> General debugging pages were also written.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspendHibernateResume
<ogasawara> An overwhelming number of bugs came flooding in, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?&field.tag=apport-kerneloops+suspend&field.tags_combinator=ALL
<ogasawara> The team is still trying to process the bug reports and find similarities between hardware and/or drivers being used.
<ogasawara> Unfortunately with the large volume of bugs coming in it was decided to temporarily disable the apport automated suspend/resume bug reporting mechanism for Jaunty's final release.
<ogasawara> This will be re-visited for the Karmic development cycle.
<ogasawara> <bryce> QUESTION:  Does suspend/resume and hibernate/resume work properly on your laptop ogasawara?
<ogasawara> bryce: indeed suspend/resume works wonderfully on my laptop (Dell inspiron 1420, all intel hw)
<ogasawara> bryce: although I recently did a hibernate but using a 2.6.30 kernel and I did not resume
<ogasawara> bryce: I haven't had time to investigate the root cause
<ogasawara> next, 8) HWDB Workshop
<ogasawara> Leading up to the Jaunty UDS the Ubuntu kernel team had been holding discussions with the Launchpad team to investigate building a hardware database in which end users could submit their hardware profiles to Launchpad.
<ogasawara> In theory, those profiles could then be linked to bug reports or have their data mined in general to determine for example how widespread a hardware specific issue may affect the overall Ubuntu user base.
<ogasawara> Taking the above mentioned suspend/resume bugs as an example, having a hwdb would be ideal.
<ogasawara> It would allow the Ubuntu kernel team to quickly determine which bugs relate to a specific piece of hardware or driver and then group them to one master bug.
<ogasawara> Subsequently the team could then examine how many users this issue may potentially affect to help prioritize work to be done and resources to be allocated.
<ogasawara> Some development for the hwdb has already began and work in this area will continue to be carried through the Karmic development cycle.
<ogasawara> next . . .
<ogasawara> 9) Sponsoring /staging drivers
<ogasawara> For those not familiar, the staging directory "was created to hold drivers and filesystems and other semi-major additions to the Linux kernel that are not ready to be merged at this point in time.  It is here for companies and authors to get a wider range of testing, and to allow for other members of the community to help with the development of these features for the eventual inclusion into the main kernel tree."
<ogasawara> The staging directory is maintained upstream and is a part of the latest Jaunty kernel.
<ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team promotes the testing of drivers etc. which exist in the staging directory.
<ogasawara> If there is a module of interest which is currently not enabled within the staging directory for the Ubuntu kernels, feel free to notify the kernel team of your interest in testing the module and having it enabled.
<ogasawara> It's best to file a bug report in Launchpad with this request.  The Ubuntu kernel team will likely review the request and hopefully enable the module for further testing.
<ogasawara> If there is code you know which exists outside of the mainline kernel tree that is a good candidate to submit for inclusion in drivers/staging, please let the corresponding authors know.
<ogasawara> This ties into the next item. . .
<ogasawara> 10) Remove AUFS
<ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team met with AUFS maintainer Junjiro Okajima at the Jaunty UDS.
<ogasawara> At that time Okajima-san was encouraged to get his code merged upstream into the drivers/staging directory.
<ogasawara> The patches were submitted upstream but unfortunately, it seems they were rejected.
<ogasawara> The reasons are captured at http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=123938533724484&w=2
<ogasawara> Going forward (likely at the upcoming Karmic UDS) this topic will be re-examined and debated as to whether AUFS will be removed entirely.
<ogasawara> Some alternatives would be to possibly go back to unionfs although the move to aufs was prompted by unionfs issues.
<ogasawara> Another option might be device-mapper snapshots.
<ogasawara> Regardless, any alternative will have to be sufficiently investigated and verified to provide support for the Ubuntu LiveCD.
<ogasawara> I unfortunately don't know much more regarding this issue and I imagine it will warrant a new spec/blueprint in Launchpad and another UDS session for Karmic.
<ogasawara> <zhurai> Question: what's AUFS?
<ogasawara> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AuFS
<zhurai> (it was already answered)
<ogasawara> <sbeattie> QUESTION: would it make sense to have the staging drivers enabled in a separate linux-staging-modules package?
<ogasawara> sbeattie: actually that's sorta what the linux-ubuntu-modules package used to provide
<ogasawara> sbeattie: but seeing as they've since removed lum, I doubt we'll see a separate linux-staging-modules package
<ogasawara> 11) Kernel Mode Setting
<ogasawara> This is a big topic I know a lot of people are interested in.
<ogasawara> This will be on the agenda as well for Karmic UDS kernel discussions.
<ogasawara> Given the fact that KMS requires some synchronization with userspace, ie. Xorg, KMS will likely be disabled for the first few Karmic Alpha releases until userspace catches up.
<ogasawara> However, I believe the intention is to have this enabled for Karmic's final release.
<ogasawara> For those not entirely familiar, Kernel Mode Setting will provide things such as:
<ogasawara> * Improved suspend/resume support since the kernel will no longer have to rely on external resources to restore devices to a proper state after resume.
<ogasawara> * Also, with this functionality moving to the kernel, the mode should also be restored automatically and more quickly.
<ogasawara> * Similarly, virtual terminal switching should also see an improvement and likely be more reliable.
<ogasawara> * You'll also see improved debugging as KMS should allow the kernel to display panic/oops messages rather than a hard system hang with no helpful indication of what went wrong.
<ogasawara> For those interested in testing, I'd recommend following the Karmic Alpha release notes for when this will be available.
<ogasawara> Ok, moving on . . .
<ogasawara> 12) EXT4 by default
<ogasawara> The Jaunty 9.04 release supported the ability to install the new ext4 file system, but ext3 remained the default file system for Jaunty.
<ogasawara> Going forward, ext4 will be considered as the default file system based on the initial testing and feedback received during the Jaunty cycle.
<ogasawara> One of the higher profile bugs regarding ext4 in Jaunty has since been resolved:
<ogasawara> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/317781?comments=all
<ogasawara> Please let the Ubuntu kernel team know of any issues you experience with ext4 to help them make an educated decision for recommending ext4 to be the default file system for the upcoming Karmic release.
<ogasawara> For tracking purposes, the Ubuntu kernel team would prefer you file a bug report in Launchpad for any Ubuntu specific ext4 issues.
<ogasawara> If you are able to confirm the issue with the upstream kernel as well, please also notify the upstream ext4 kernel developers.
<ogasawara> Next item . . .
<ogasawara> 13) Improving Wifi
<ogasawara> The Jaunty UDS had some upstream linux-wireless representation in attendance.
<ogasawara> This was a great time for the Ubuntu kernel team to interact with the upstream developers to get their feedback on what the Ubuntu kernel team could do to help support the upstream linux-wireless community.
<ogasawara> It's also an opportunity to discover how Ubuntu as a distro can help end users engage in testing the latest compat-wireless stack and provide feedback directly to the upstream developers.
<ogasawara> The following wiki was drafted as a result:
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/LinuxWireless
<ogasawara> A reference to this doc was also made from the upstream wireless.kernel.org wiki
<ogasawara> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Documentation/Reporting_bugs#Distributionspecificnotes
<ogasawara> Another related item I'd like to point out is that the linux-backports-modules package typically contains an updated compat-wireless stack.
<ogasawara> It's a great way to quickly test if a current wifi issue may be resolved with this updated stack.
<ogasawara> The version of the compat-wireless stack in linux-backports-modules is updated fairly regularly but it is by no means updated daily to contain the bleeding edge bits.
<ogasawara> If you want the bleeding edge, refer to http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Download
<ogasawara> The practice of providing an updated compat-wireless stack via linux-backports-modules will continue with the Karmic release.
<ogasawara> I'd also like to take a moment to mention CRDA (Central Regulatory Domain Agent) at this time.
<ogasawara> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/developers/Regulatory/CRDA
<ogasawara> "CRDA acts as the udev helper for communication between the kernel and userspace for regulatory compliance."
<ogasawara> A spec was written for the Jaunty cycle to provide CRDA support.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/JauntyCRDA
<ogasawara> CRDA has since been packaged for use within Jaunty.
<ogasawara> See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wireless-crda
<ogasawara> <yusuf> QUESTION: I Have a problem where the free ath5k driver drops 90% of pacakges in ad-hoc mode. If madwifi is to be discontinued will ath5k be useble in ad-hoc mode?
<ogasawara> yusuf: I'd encourage you to first test with linux-backports-modules if you haven't already
<ogasawara> real quick last item
<ogasawara> 14) Remove AppArmor
<charlie-tca> 3 minute warning
<ogasawara> Discussions need to happen between the Ubuntu kernel team and the security team as to whether AppArmor will still be supported or if Ubuntu will move to a different security model, eg. SELinux.
<ogasawara> Unfortunately that's about all I know about the current status of this topic at this point in time.
<ogasawara> That's really all I had on my list to cover.  I would however like to point to a few general reference docs as well.
<ogasawara> For general information regarding the Ubuntu kernel team, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam
<ogasawara> For those wanting to get involved, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GettingInvolved
<ogasawara> And lastly, I'd like to point out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase which contains a wealth of information.
<ogasawara> Ok everyone, thanks for listening.  Enjoy the weekend!
<jcastro> thanks ogasawara!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2200 UTC: Questions and Feedback ||  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok, normally this would be the end of openweek
<jcastro> but we have a forums session after this
<jcastro> so over the next hour I'd like to take any feedback
<jcastro> from people on how we can make Open Week better
<jcastro> for this session please just give me your feedback right in this channel so we can log it
<jcastro> How did you guys enjoy openweek?
<somnoliento> jcastro: this was my first Open Week. I found it incredibely informative
<jcastro> good!
<zhurai> I thought it was quite informative as well
<akgraner> jcastro, my 1st one too - talk about a wealth of info...
<jcastro> how did you guys like the topics?
<jcastro> too simple? too complicated?
<zhurai> only problem is my timezone (GMT-8), makes it that this is held during when I'm at school
<jcastro> yes, the time xone thing is always a trade off
<jcastro> I would like to be able to have sessions for all time zones, but that depends on how many volunteers we can find
<zhurai> which now my school's over so I'm moving again, and missing more of it :x
<KhaaL> i enjoyed it, though I'd like to see live video streams. that way topics will be better covered (hey, it takes less time to speak than to type).
<jcastro> is there a particular area of ubuntu which you feel we could have covered better?
<awkorama> enterprise client/server
<jcastro> ok
<DougieRichardson> jcastro: I'd like to thnak you for the time you've put in on this, the only thing that I saw that would have benefitted from improvement was magicfabs session where there was some unhelpful commenting, especially in the main channel
<ninnnu> Seconding zhurai, though on my case these were a bit too late (UTC+2 +DST), but at least there's IRC-logs. The sessions has been interesting, anyway. :)
<boredandblogging> jcastro: would weekends be better?
<awkorama> that has not been covered at all (afaik)
<Rafik> jcastro> It was great ! for some sessions, one hour was too short
<nhandler> That is what I was thinking boredandblogging
<somnoliento> awkorama: There were a couple of sessions on servers
<jcastro> we tried a weekend once
<ninnnu> Though the timezone-thing is something that is impossible to get done right so that it'd satisfies everyone, so...
<boredandblogging> jcastro: right, forgot about that
<nhandler> Not enough attendance jcastro ?
<jcastro> the attendance wasn't good and getting people to volunteer a saturday was difficult
<jcastro> though I suspect if we had interest that we might be able to do one
<jcastro> (sorry if my answers are slow, ssh lag is killing me today)
<Sealbhach> Kernel talk is always abstruse to me, I find it difficult not to zone out.
<jcastro> heh yeah
<jcastro> but we try to have different levels of talks
<somnoliento> The Women in Ubuntu panel was great
<awkorama> somnoliento: not really, server team info, and screen session, but that didn't answer my questions at all
<ninnnu> Suggestion: If there's a session that "needs" live attendance (like the screen-profiles one), ask them to have two sessions on different times?
<jcastro> to appeal to different audiences
<jcastro> ninnnu: ok, good idea
<rufong> 1st time here, great info! representatives were great about answering questions. i agree with Rafik, some sessions having 2hrs would be awesome
<jcastro> the screen-profiles session seemed to be a hit
<jcastro> rufong: ok
<shadowland> screen-profiles session was really good, yeah
<charlie-tca> I thought it was great! Yet, I have wonder if there is a way to repeat the sessions at 12 hour intervals, for better time coverage in all zones?
<toros> yeah, screen-profiles session was one of the best ever :)
<jcastro> yeah, it would be nice if we could have revolving classes throughout the timezones
<shadowland> See, all you have to do is make Dustin wake up every 4 hours and give it again :)
<jcastro> I think ausimage did a good job getting the logs up on the wiki really quickly!
<jcastro> so round of applause!
<SiDi> Thanks everyone for this wonderful week ! Learnt a lot of things, it's been a pleasure.
<jcastro> also thanks to charlie-tca for covering for me during my connection issues today!
 * rufong applauds
<charlie-tca> No problem, I am just glad it all works.
 * SiDi offers an XFCE mouse to charlie-tca : ~O>
<nhandler> Any feedback about the use of identi.ca for session reminders?
 * charlie-tca accepts it, SiDi. thanks
<jcastro> oh yeah, thanks to nhandler for scripting up the identi.ca topic notices
<nhandler> And thanks to greg-g for hosting it
<shadowland> One bit of feedback:  emmajane's documentation sessions she mentioned videos that she'd prepared ahead of time and had a pastebin
<shadowland> for reading ahead, which were both very handy
<jcastro> how do you guys feel about the timing of the week?
<jcastro> is right after release a good time?
<nhandler> jcastro: I think the timing is perfect. I had a few days before the karmic repositories opened up to prepare my session
<shadowland> yes
<charlie-tca> I think it is right.
<jcastro> heh, yeah, a nice bit of lull there
<somnoliento> jcastro: perhaps a little more time after the release (one more week?)
<jcastro> ok
<nhandler> Any particular reason somnoliento ?
<somnoliento> nhandler: well, I ended up upgrading *during* open week
<sebsebseb> I have used Ubuntu since the second release (with Fedora Core 2 and 4 before it),  and Open Week has been since Edgy, and I didn't even know about it untill this one.  I think I read something on IRC maybe,  but it took  untill Tuesday after someone had told me that they asked Shuttleworth a question, before I knew it was going on.  As a result it needs advertising more!
<nhandler> sebsebseb: Where should we advertise?
<nhandler> It has been on the planet, irc, mailing lists, identi.ca, etc
<sebsebseb> The timeing is a little odd for the UK  since UTC/GMT is normalley our timezone, but not now, when it is the summer and we are using BST.
<zhurai> what's BST?
<sebsebseb> nhandler: frontpage of the website?
<sebsebseb> zhurai: British Summer Time
<Sealbhach> Blogging gets the word out best I think, it's get's picked up in Google news search for "ubuntu"
<zhurai> ah ._.
<nhandler> sebsebseb: Blogs such as the Fridge are more appropriate for news such as Open Week than the ubuntu front page
<nhandler> Especially since the front page is being used to advertise jaunty right now ;)
<shadowland> Yeah, I think I only saw one post from DougieRichardson on the planet before things started.
<TurtlePie> LPIC-1 certification
<nhandler> shadowland: There were others. I know jcastro had one that got echoed on the Fridge
<jcastro> sebsebseb: ok so better marketing overall, good point
<sebsebseb> nhandler: Well I didn't even know about that stuff untill ths open week, I get my Liniux news from  http://www.linuxtoday.com  and maybe  http://www.linux.org if they are doing articles.  If I was more of a geek I would read Slashdot as well :d
<akgraner> jcastro, I like how the tone of the sessions were great for the beginner without making me feel silly for not knowing something...and if something needed to be explained 3 different ways they took they time to do so...
<sebsebseb> nhandler: I have however been behind with Linux news, so maybe it got mentioned on a site I would have used
<jcastro> akgraner: heh, that's on purpose. :)
<charlie-tca> Even the prep was announced on the devel mailing list, maybe something through the weekly news letter, too.
<jcastro> I liked how we didn't really need to moderate the channels
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: not on the mailing lists maybe I will join
<jcastro> other than the occasional lost person I think people were well behaved
<jcastro> that's pretty rare for sessions over 300 people!
<charlie-tca> I never saw it in the announcement mailing list, even
<Sealbhach> Yes, nice egalitarian, community feeling about the whole week.
<akgraner> jcastro, I've been telling everyone how great these IRC sessions are, and how much stuff gets accomplished in an hour....amazing...
<jcastro> yep
<nhandler> jcastro: Another marketing idea would be a stickied thread on the forums
<charlie-tca> Behavior was great! and we got real good attendance.
<jcastro> ok, so about half way through this next cycle we'll have Developer WEek, which is the same format, but for more advanced topics
<barcc> session about new features are good (encrypted home, screen profiles, Whats new in 9.04)
<jcastro> nhandler: there is one already
<charlie-tca> but both prep and final announcements need to be more widespread.
<jcastro> good point
<akgraner> maybe someone mentioned this but can people who have specific questions before the sessions can we post them to the wiki?
<jcastro> yeah, the problem with that
<jcastro> is that the questions pile up
<nhandler> jcastro: Where? I didn't see it
<zhurai> as I was going to say before I had to go home...  I feel it's a VERY good thing that you guys log these things in the wiki, so that is a pretty good plus (especially since I can't go to all of them :|)
<akgraner> ahh ok
<jcastro> and it ends up being a person reciting stuff instead of it being so real time
<charlie-tca> Yes, that is what I think, too. Too many questions in advance could kill the session.
<akgraner> understood...
<jcastro> nhandler: community cafe
<sebsebseb> Another marketing  idea not just for Open Week, but Ubuntu as a whole, would be  TV adverts, if  Canonical ever made enough money!   I hope so one day,  Microsoft used to advertise Windows and such quite a bit on TV in the 90's.
<jcastro> sebsebseb: heh, some day
<nhandler> jcastro: Ah, I was thinking more of a global sticky.
<jcastro> that might be a better idea
<Sealbhach> No good marketing Ubuntu on TV unless it's preinstalled and certain to work OK
<sebsebseb> Sealbhach: pre installed OEM deals are also good of course
<jcastro> any other feedback?
<SiDi> Yeh, might be a damocles sword for people who run into hardware trouble
<somnoliento> I think, for marketing, nothing beats word of mouth... you just go out there and comment what a great idea the OW is, and what a great asset this kind of things are for the community and the distro
<nhandler> jcastro: Maybe have each day cover a different range of hours
<jcastro> nice, dude brings up damocles sword. First time I've seen that
<jcastro> nhandler: yeah I have alot of ways we can think about a more time-zone friendly thing for people all over the world
<jcastro> oh, of course, one thing people always forget
<jcastro> is that -classroom is always available for stuff
<jcastro> so there's nothing stopping anyone from firing up improm
<jcastro> tu sessions all the time
<hggdh> even better (but more stressful) two weeks, each with different range (and, probaby, different presenters)
<rufong> jcastro:was anyone asked to represent edubuntu?
<nhandler> jcastro: dtchen had an impromptu session the other day
<nhandler> It also might be useful setting up an IRC bot that is in here and #ubuntu-classroom-chat. The session leader could then type something like !question to have a question from -chat posted in here.
<sebsebseb> rufong: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekintrepid/Edubuntu
<sebsebseb> rufong: Intrepid did it
<rufong> sebsebseb: i c
<jcastro> nhandler: good idea
<jcastro> ok well, just one more session and then we can call it a wrape
<jcastro> as always if you have more feedback, maile me at jorge@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> bodhi_zazen: you're up at the top of the hour!
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you jcastro :)
<charlie-tca> jcastro: Thanks for all your work this week.
<charlie-tca> It takes a lot to put this together!
<sebsebseb> The Wine one was very good,  but  I  missed my oppertunity to say,  that we don't live in a ideal world.  This should make sense if the log is read.
<sebsebseb> Great week!
<sebsebseb> Look forward to the next one.
<sebsebseb> Would be nice to have a Saturday as part of open week in the future as well.
<bodhi_zazen> Looks like we saved the best for last ?
<bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu Forums :)
* nhandler changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Open Week || Session: 2300 UTC: Ubuntu Forums || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bodhi_zazen> jcastro: THANK YOU for putting all this together :)
<nhandler> For those of you who don't know him, bodhi_zazen is the leader of the Ubuntu Forums Beginners team, and a member of the Forum Council. He will now be talking about the Ubuntu Forums.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-02
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you for the Introduction nhandler
<bodhi_zazen> The Ubuntu Forums is unique in the Linux community
<sebsebseb> heh all this time  using Ubuntu and not a ubuntu fourms member.  Linuxquestions.org though yes.  ok  i'll chat in other channel :d
<bodhi_zazen> When I first installed Linux I have to admit, I was lost
<bodhi_zazen> I tried a few distros, but really struggled
<bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu was recommended to me by a colleague in my local IT department :)
<bodhi_zazen> It was a breath of fresh air to be able to ask a "noobie" question and not be ridiculed (edit other forums / communities deleted)
<JoshuaRL> duanedesign: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bodhi_zazen> As is the case with many others , the spirit of the ubuntu community is exemplified on the forums
<bodhi_zazen> for example, Threads: 1,037,303, Beans: 6,633,315, Members: 823,964, Active Members: 71,515
<bodhi_zazen> What I would like to show you is some things about the forums you may not know :)
<bodhi_zazen> First, I am assuming you all know how to use a forums ?
<bodhi_zazen> You register and off you go :)
<bodhi_zazen> From any page : http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php
<bodhi_zazen> you can customize your account from the "UserCP" , a link in the upper left
<bodhi_zazen> from there you can set many options including a sig, avatar, email, and privacy options
<bodhi_zazen> Posts are called "Beans" and a users's title changes in a semi-random way depending on bean count.
<bodhi_zazen> Beans give you gas, so take care :)
<bodhi_zazen> Some very knowledgeable users have low bean counts
<bodhi_zazen> From there , when posting or repsponding to threads you have may options or "bbcode"
<bodhi_zazen> There is a master list here : http://ubuntuforums.org/misc.php?do=bbcode
<bodhi_zazen> I will point out a few of the useful ones :)
<bodhi_zazen> [code] [quote] of course
<bodhi_zazen> but also linking to the wiki with [uhelp] [uwiki]
<bodhi_zazen> you use the WikiName - [uwiki]RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows[/uwiki]
<bodhi_zazen> or
<bodhi_zazen> [uhelp]community/SoftwareManagement[/uhelp]
<bodhi_zazen> uhelp is for the community pages, and it is easier then remembering the entire url :)
<bodhi_zazen> To insert an image , use [img] tags
<bodhi_zazen> PLEASE use thumbnails with hot links :)
<bodhi_zazen> to do that say you have a url=small image
<bodhi_zazen> and a url=large image
<bodhi_zazen> you embed them
<bodhi_zazen> [url=http://large_mimage][img]http://small_image[/img][/url]
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<bodhi_zazen> there are tags or php, html, and noparse
<bodhi_zazen> use noparse to show how to use the tags ;)
<bodhi_zazen> How about smiles ?
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/misc.php?do=showsmilies
<bodhi_zazen> That is a master list of the smiles, you can cut and paste them
<bodhi_zazen> :guitar:
<bodhi_zazen> :popcorn:
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<bodhi_zazen> We do have a few rules :(
<bodhi_zazen> They are easy to follow for almost everyone and they basically ask that you act in a kind, respectful, and helpful manor
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy
<bodhi_zazen> If you see bad behavior, what do you do ?
<bodhi_zazen> First, best just ignore trolls
<bodhi_zazen> Second, if you see something like spam or bad behavior, report the psot
<bodhi_zazen> *post*
<bodhi_zazen> If you go here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1145571
<bodhi_zazen> At the bottom of each post you will see a small button
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/infraction.gif
<bodhi_zazen> click that , report your concerns, and the staff will take care of it.
<bodhi_zazen> If you need help go to : http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48
<bodhi_zazen> If you have a problem or question for the staff go here http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123
<bodhi_zazen> or the Resolution Center.
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<bodhi_zazen> OK, enough of finding help and features
<bodhi_zazen> any questions ?
<bodhi_zazen> Otherwise I am going to show you some of the fun forms / discussion pages
<bodhi_zazen> Oops, wrong button for reporting posts :(
<bodhi_zazen> http://go.mibbit.com/thumb.php?x=32&y=32&url=http%3A%2F%2Fubuntuforums.org%2Fimages%2Fbuttons%2Freport.gif
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/report.gif
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> This link can help as well http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/report.gif
<bodhi_zazen> cut and past failure :(
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1006656
<bodhi_zazen> OK, major sections
<bodhi_zazen> Let me first say, about 80 % of people like the layout, 20 % do not
<bodhi_zazen> There are always discussions on changing it, but the 20 % who do not like the layout have about 100 suggestions on improvement and there has been no consensus on changes :)
<bodhi_zazen> BUT, we are always open to ideas
<bodhi_zazen> The "main" section for many is of course ABT : http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326
<bodhi_zazen> Basically this is where people can come to feel comfortable asking questions, no matter how easy they may be.
<bodhi_zazen> Sure, perhaps "how do I install apache" may belong int the server section, but we *try* to promote more expertise in the server section
<bodhi_zazen> such as how do I configure virtualhosts or mod_evasive ;)
<bodhi_zazen> We then have the main support threads : http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327
<bodhi_zazen> There the questions start to be more specific - Hardware, installation, security, servers, etc
<bodhi_zazen> Although our main focus is support, we do *try* to promote fun as well
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=125
<sebsebseb> yep every popular forum should have something that isn't on topic as well
<bodhi_zazen> Here we have things such as community discussions (LoCo, 3rd part projects, gaming, wine, art, etc)
<bodhi_zazen> We had some additional sections sebsebseb such as the Cafe, OtherOS Talk, etc
<bodhi_zazen> We had a problem though , as the forums grew, there were issues server side
<sebsebseb> bodhi_zazen: that tends to happen to big forums as well
<bodhi_zazen> Anyone recall a time not so long ago when the forums went down with some regularity ?
<bodhi_zazen> So, we had to reduce the size and focus on our core
<bodhi_zazen> With other OS talk, for example, we are sending Fedora Questions to the Fedora forums etc
<mib_6etbw0> hello room
<bodhi_zazen> This promotes other communities as well as our own and allows us to maintain a reasonable size data base.
<bodhi_zazen> Yes we have added physical servers as well :)
<mib_6etbw0> anyone home
<bodhi_zazen> lol mikechelen
<bodhi_zazen> lok mib_6etbw0
<mib_6etbw0> I am just frustrated with unbutu
<bodhi_zazen> Same with some of the off topic conversations
<bodhi_zazen> mib_6etbw0: we are doing a session right now
<mib_6etbw0> I have made several attempts on installing it on 3 differant systems and all have the same problem
<bodhi_zazen> go to #ubuntu or ##beginners-help for support please :)
<mib_6etbw0> no video after install
<bodhi_zazen> otherwise I will help after this session
<mib_6etbw0> thank u
<JoshuaRL> mib_6etbw0: ill try to help you in ##beginners-help
<mib_6etbw0>  for the hellp and link
<sebsebseb> JoshuaRL: same here I guess,  I didn't even know that channel existed
<bodhi_zazen> Back to the forums, when the data base is stable, and new servers allow, assuming we have the resources, we would consider bringing back things such as other os talk and the cafe :)
<bodhi_zazen> although I can not "promise" such changes
<bodhi_zazen> Just a FYI for people who have not heard :)
<bodhi_zazen> I also lead the Ubuntu Forums Beginners Team
<bodhi_zazen> Hard to believe , but I started that team 2 years ago
<bodhi_zazen> The focus of the team is two fold
<bodhi_zazen> 1. We assist new users on the forums
<bodhi_zazen> 2. We also help people learn the Ubuntu community
<bodhi_zazen> so once people are able to install Ubuntu, they often want to give back to the community
<bodhi_zazen> So we show them how to become involved in Launchpad, wiki or doc team, irc, etc, etc
<bodhi_zazen> We are branching out and are looking at configuring a moodle platform to promote learning / education of Ubuntu
<bodhi_zazen> For people who do not know : http://moodle.org/
<bodhi_zazen> This is a collaborative project with briad community support
<bodhi_zazen> we will have educational content on system administration and development :)
<bodhi_zazen> The beginners team I must say is a community within a community and to be honest we have a blast
<bodhi_zazen> Our main channel is #ubuntuforums-beginners
<bodhi_zazen> and all are welcome
<bodhi_zazen> Please take note : We try to keep the channel fairly informal >:)
<bodhi_zazen> We have several additional channels , I doubt if anyone really knows how many at this point , lol
<bodhi_zazen> ##beginners-help is one, where we offer "overflow" to #ubuntu
<bodhi_zazen> as you can see from earlier
<bodhi_zazen> We have a launchpad team
<bodhi_zazen> and our wiki page is here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<bodhi_zazen> OK, so that is a whirlwind overview of the fourms
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to open this conversation to questions if I may
<bodhi_zazen> We did have a question :
<bodhi_zazen> DougieRichardson	Question: Do you think there is value in the Testimonials section - it seems to degrade into flame wars frequently
<bodhi_zazen> The answer to that is two fold
<bodhi_zazen> first, yes, the value is , if nothing else , to have these views a location where they can be voiced
<bodhi_zazen> outside of the support threads
<bodhi_zazen> Sometimes these conversations arise out of frustration
<bodhi_zazen> which is natural
<bodhi_zazen> If you are having problems running your computer you will be frustrated
<bodhi_zazen> Many of these threads lead to solutions
<bodhi_zazen> If, however, the threads are noting more then flame wars, they should be reported and, IMO, closed
<bodhi_zazen> The second question how do you manage flame wars ?
<bodhi_zazen> first, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, and really there is no need to engage in flame wars :)
<bodhi_zazen> If you feel you *must* post in a flame war, please do so in a polite way
<bodhi_zazen> disagree in an agreeable way
<bodhi_zazen> that solves 90+ % of flame wars
<bodhi_zazen> the other 10 % should be reported to the staff, and honestly the moderators and admins are able to resolve the majority of these issues
<bodhi_zazen> For a community of 800,000 it a very small minority who troll / flame / or have issues in the resolution center
<bodhi_zazen> and IMO that is because we *try* to treat everyone with respect
<bodhi_zazen> and, at the end of the day =>
<bodhi_zazen> Respect, give it , get it, got ie ?
<bodhi_zazen> give it , get it, got it ?
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> QUESTION: do you have to use and avatar or can you use a pic or a hackergotchi (sp?).
<bodhi_zazen> You can upload a picture from your compter
<bodhi_zazen> or link to one
<bodhi_zazen> Size limit I think is 90x90
<bodhi_zazen> User CP -> Edit Avatar (on the left)
<bodhi_zazen> --
<bodhi_zazen> QUESTION: Some new users seem to approach the forums in the same way as commercial tech-help forums and can have a sort of "demanding" approach - this is likely to increase with more regular Windows users coming over. How do you think the forums would cope?
<bodhi_zazen> This is similar to the previous question
<bodhi_zazen> In my experience, with a community as large as ours, there is a saddle for every @$$
<bodhi_zazen> If you feel a poster is demanding , move on to another thread
<bodhi_zazen> If you fell it is out of control, report the post
<bodhi_zazen> The staff almost always resolves these situations with polite PM
<bodhi_zazen> it is a matter of education
<bodhi_zazen> If they want professional support they can purchase it , just like RHEL, Windows, etc
<bodhi_zazen> QUESTION: How far in advance is the date of Forum Council meetings announced at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda ? Is there a way to get notified other than checking that page?
<bodhi_zazen> Meetings are announced as far in advance as possile
<bodhi_zazen> They have not been "required" recently
<bodhi_zazen> If the agenda gets full or there is a "crisis" we have a meeting
<bodhi_zazen> I think meetings are posted on the fridge
<bodhi_zazen> You can subscribe to the fridge on google (gcal)
<bodhi_zazen> although that requires you register with the evil empire
<bodhi_zazen> alternate , They can also subscribe to the Forum Council wiki page
<bodhi_zazen> thanks nhandler :)
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you everyone for coming
<nhandler> Thank you bodhi_zazen for a great Open Week session about the Ubuntu Forums.
<bodhi_zazen> If you ever need assistance, please com on by
<bodhi_zazen> I am almost always on #ubuntuforums-beginners
<bodhi_zazen> and other random channels
<nhandler> This also concludes the Ubuntu Open Week for Karmic Koala.
<nhandler> Logs for all sessions can be found on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<bodhi_zazen> If I am not, there are otheres as well
<nhandler> On behalf of Jono, Jorge, and and the entire Ubuntu Community, I would like to thank everyone for their great participation.
<charlie-tca> thank you, nhandler
* nhandler changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week is now over. Logs are available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. A big thanks to everyone for participating
<sebsebseb> nhandler: Open Week for Jaunty Jackalope you meant
<JoshuaRL> hehe
<james_w> is it out yet?
<sebsebseb> james_w: no not even the first alpha yet
<nhandler> sebsebseb: I guess. Although I personally feel that this should be considered the Open Week for Karmic (since Jaunty is already out)
<sebsebseb> nhandler: maybe, but 9.04 stuff has been in the sessions here and there etc
<nhandler> sebsebseb: I know.
<G__81> Am i allowed to conduct tech sessions in this classroom when needed ?
<genii> Maybe ask one of the channel ops
<tlatelolco> hello, i have a question on versioning. I'm packaging wormux-0.8.3
<AnAnt> Hello, the recorded logs of UbuntuOpenWeek are easier to read (and not truncated), than the recorded logs of Packaging/Training
<nhandler> AnAnt: What Packaging/Training logs are truncated? And in what way are they hard to read?
<AnAnt> nhandler: have a look at the uscan lesson
<AnAnt> nhandler: " Don't forget also the"
<nhandler> AnAnt: I see. Must have just been a copy/paste issue. I'll fix that up. Thanks
<AnAnt> nhandler: thanks to you
<AnAnt> nhandler: but I think there were other occurrences too, I'll note them if I see them again & tell you
<nhandler> AnAnt: Actually, it wasn't a copy/paste error. But I'll fix it any way
<AnAnt> as for how they are hard to read, I just find the log in the format: <nickname>: <text>  to be easier than:  <nickname><spaces><text>
<nhandler> AnAnt: It really ins't <nickname><spaces><text> . It is in a table
<AnAnt> nhandler: ah, I am using elinks
<nhandler> ;)
<i_> tuxitjaunty
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-05-03
<xox-bleedinghear> what's ubuntu?
<rski> xox-bleedinghear: where did you hear about it
<xox-bleedinghear> google, I mean all I have read is teachie nonsence
<xox-bleedinghear> to me I mean*
<rski> i would recommend reading the wikipedia article about ubuntu
<rski> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu
<xox-bleedinghear> *** meant 9.04 I already installed it but what's different
<rski> read the changelog on ubuntu.com
<xox-bleedinghear> from fiesty
<xox-bleedinghear> rski: isn't that techie?
<rski> if that's the case
<rski> then short explination: new versions of software all over the place.
<rski> and most likely better
<rski> so there you have it
<mimor> lol rski nice explanation :)
<rski> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-03
<paulorrrr> what login live cd 10.04
<om26er> windicator hmmm
<om26er> oops sorry wrong channel
<QueeenZ> hello
<keffie_jayx> o/
<TMKCodes> hour to start?
<QueeenZ> yes
<QueeenZ> 3pm
<QueeenZ> gmt
 * jcastro taps the mic
<cjohnston> jcastro: keys.. taps the keys
<dholbach> W E L C O M E   E V E R Y B O D Y   T O   A N O T H E R   U B U N T U   O P E N   W E E K !
<dpm> yeah, welcome everyone to this 8th edition of the Ubuntu Open Week!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction To Ubuntu Open Week - Instructors: jcastro, dpm, dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> Unfortunately Jono Bacon can't make it to the introduction of Ubuntu Open Week today because of an event he has to attend, but I'm sure he's with us and wants us to have a fantastic rocking Ubuntu Open Week!
<dholbach> Instead, dpm, jcastro, akgraner and I will introduce this week to you! :)
<dholbach> As a first step, please all join  #ubuntu-classroom-chat .
<dpm> if you've got any questions, you can ask them there
<dpm> and we'll try to answer them at the end of the session
<dholbach> Yes, the way this works is that the general presentation will happen in #ubuntu-classroom and all discussion and questions go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> please make sure you prefix them with "QUESTION: " so they stand out
<dholbach> ie:  QUESTION: What is jcastro's cat called?
<jcastro> dholbach: my cat's name is miguel
<dholbach> thanks jcastro
<dholbach> as a second step, please take a note to tell all your friends about Ubuntu Open Week :)
<dholbach> This is going to be awesome!
<dpm> indeed, remember to blog, microblog and tell everyone who'd like to get involved in Ubuntu
<dholbach> Shall we wait a couple of minutes to wait for stragglers and leave everybody a bit of time to tell their friends? :)
<dholbach> Or shall we crack right on?
<dpm> let's wait a couple of mins before get the ball rolling
<dholbach> Ok... let's do a quick survey while we wait a bit: please all join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and tell us which City and Country you are connected from!
<dpm> we've got a very diverse community, from all over the world. We'd love to hear where you come from!
<dpm> awesome, it seems that we've got representation from all over the globe indeed :)
<dholbach> Very nice, it's fantastic to have you all here - and from all parts of the world!
<dholbach> So let's talk a bit about Ubuntu Open Weekâ¦ the main reason of the event is to get all you fantastic people together, have fun and enjoy session where we all learn much more about the Ubuntu project.
<dholbach> The way in which this works from an organisation point of view is that each and every session on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek is one hour long, happens in #ubuntu-classroom and discussions/questions happen in #ubuntu-classroom-chat - so make sure you're always in both channels.
<dholbach> One good way of doing that is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid
<dholbach> If you find that you can't make a session, don't worry - we'll make logs available right after the sessions and they'll be linked from the timetable on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<dholbach> So https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek is the only page you need to bookmark :-)
<dpm> These sessions should give you a good taste of the different aspects in which everyone can start contributing to Ubuntu, from day one. You'll see that there are many ways to contribute: advocacy, development, documentation, translations, bug triaging, testing...
<jcastro> also you can send the logs to friends!
<dholbach> I saw that we have a good participation from Spanish-speaking countries, so if you yourself "habla EspaÃ±ol", be sure to check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek_ES - which will give you Spanish sessions live, in colour and dolby surround
<dholbach> actually... it's all text, but it's in Spanish and will be fantastic too
<dholbach> dpm: was "habla espaÃ±ol" correct? :)
<dpm> that sounded like native Spanish, dholbach
<dholbach> ok, so maybe I should attend those sessions too :-)
<dpm> I see your Spanish classes were worth their money
<dholbach> erm, that was French ;-)
<dholbach> nevermind :)
<dpm> But I know you can speak a bit of Spanish too
<jcastro> and don't forget, you can always run your own openweek sessions in your own language!
<dholbach> dpm, jcastro: so what should people watch out for this week?
<jcastro> well ...
<jcastro> we have Ask Mark on wednesday
<jcastro> which is always popular
<jcastro> aspiring ubuntu developers should check out the sessions on Friday
<jcastro> and since we're so close to an LTS release
<jcastro> we've asked teams to do a bunch of Q+A sessions
<jcastro> so Kernel, server, wine, and desktop Q+A sessions
<jcastro> where you can just ask questions about things you've always wondered
<jcastro> instead of sitting through a boring lecture. :D
<dpm> I would highlight just everything! We've got plenty of sessions, very diverse, all run by the same people who make Ubuntu possible
<dholbach> those Q+A sessions are a fantastic way to get to know the team, the people and how they work without being overwhelmed with loads and loads of crazy details
<jcastro> there is a patch review session tomorrow that will be good. If you know how to code but don't know much about how to make a distro it's a great place to get started
<dholbach> Do we have any first questions about how Ubuntu Open Week is run?
<dpm> dholbach, akgraner, jcastro, for those who don't know us, and might be wondering who these people are, shall we do a quick intro about ourselves?
<dholbach> dpm: good idea
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> I'm Jorge Castro, I live in Royal Oak, MI and I do external developer relations @ Canonical Ltd.
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for this funny Englishman (http://blogs.sun.com/barton808/resource/MySQL_Jono_side.jpg) and try to make Developing Ubuntu even more fun than it already is. I'm glad to work with all the great people who hang out in #ubuntu-community-team :)
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I'm the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator @ Canonical. My job is to ensure translation teams keep rocking as they usually do, so that Ubuntu is available in everyone's language
<akgraner> I'm Amber Graner and I live in Western North Carolina just ourside of Asheville, and write about the Ubuntu Community and help with various things in the Community.  I am currently the Ubuntu Women Leader and Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Editor in Chief
<dholbach> I just thought akgraner might be busy organising ALL of the Ubuntu community while we do petty introductions
 * dpm hugs akgraner
 * dholbach hugs akgraner, dpm and jcastro
<dholbach> awesome
<jcastro> maybe we should do a bit of Q+A
<dholbach> that's probably the first thing you learn in the Ubuntu community: hugging is an essential part :)
<jcastro> about openweek
<jcastro> and maybe some general questions about 10.04?
<dholbach> <humphreybc48> QUESTION: Ubuntu All Stars! What's happening with this? I'm keen for a jam at UDS.
<dholbach> humphreybc48 brings up an important topic: parties, but also UDS. :)
<dholbach> UDS stands for Ubuntu Developer Summit - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M will happen next week near Brussels, Belgium and this will be the place where a lot of us will come together and discuss the specifics of what 10.10 will look like
<dholbach> jcastro surely knows a bit more
<jcastro> I will have a session on Friday
<jcastro> on how you can participate in the UDS remotely
<dholbach> ooooh!
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> we have microphones and IRC channels set up
<jcastro> and you can listen in on the sessions and participate in IRC, and in each room we have a big projector showing the IRC channel
<jcastro> so it's just like this except we talk back to you over the icecast stream
<jcastro> (it will be cool)
<ClassBot> X3MBoy asked: What happen with the fontface of the new ubuntu look? Is it already realeased?
<dpm> jcastro, I've heard you've got a session on how to participate remotely, haven't you?
<jcastro> X3MBoy: it's not finished yet unfortunately
<dholbach> regarding ubuntu allstars: it will happen, so please join http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-allstars and start the discussion of your favourite songs if you're going to be there and know how to jam! :)
<ClassBot> humphreybc48 asked: Why does ubuntu.com still have the old Ubuntu logo?
<jcastro> humphreybc48: the new look (like the font) is also not finished
<jcastro> I know the web team is working really hard to convert all ubuntu pages to the new look and feel
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: Will UDS-M have video streams in addition to audio?  I felt like I missed a lot last cycle by not being able to see
<jcastro> We usually have videos
<jcastro> of the plenaries at least.
<jcastro> I am not sure we will do videos of the sessions this time, but we'll have interviews, etc.
<dholbach> nice
<akgraner> we have daily interviews planned
<dpm> there you go
<ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: Can we attend the developer summit  online too?
<akgraner> and I'm going to see if I can't stream some of them but it's a work in progress
<jcastro> ubuntoogle: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/RemoteParticipation
<jcastro> that page has all the info you need to participate at UDS.
<ClassBot> sirmacik asked: Is the open week going to be organised more frequently or only after new release or less?
<dholbach> ubuntoogle: and on Friday 18 UTC jcastro will give a session about "How to participate remotely at an Ubuntu Developer Summit" too
<dholbach> ubuntoogle: so you should be all covered :)
<dholbach> sirmacik: organising an Ubuntu Open Week is more effort than you can imagine, maybe you should talk to jcastro and akgraner about joining their team :)
<dholbach> sirmacik: in addition to that we have Ubuntu Developer Week once a cycle too
<akgraner> sirmacik, currently it is after each release, with added weeks throughout each cycle, Ubuntu Developer Week, Ubuntu User Days, Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week as well
<dholbach> plus sessions in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuClassroom
<ClassBot> takelifeeasy asked: Is there an agenda to each open week section or just a Q&A?
<dholbach> takelifeeasy: all sessions have a healthy part of Q&A - it's important to us that our presenters don't just dump a lenthy script on their audience but that everybody gets a fair chance to ask their questions and find out what's important to them
<dholbach> takelifeeasy: the sessions that are marked Q+A will have a very large amount of time dedicated for that, but all the others will have an agenda
<ClassBot> humphreybc48 asked: Will there be ample opportunity to taste the local culture/beer?
<dpm> re: the previous question. yes, the important thing is to get a right balance of overview of each topic with a conversation with nes and interested contributors
<dholbach> humphreybc48: man, you make UDS and the Ubuntu community look like there's nothing but parties and drinks :)
<dpm> After a hard days work there'll be plenty of time to party and get to know interesting people :)
<dholbach> humphreybc48: but I think it's safe to assume that some of the quite diverse offering of Belgian beer will be available at UDS
<ClassBot> A-R-R asked: Whats happening with the mobile version of ubuntu? (or I heard wrong and there isn't any?)
<dpm> Ubuntu is innovating in many areas, and mobile is obviously one of them. Stay tuned for more :)
<dholbach> A-R-R: if you have a look at http://www.canonical.com/projects/ubuntu/unr you'll see what the Ubuntu Netbook Edition is all about
<dpm> The Lucid version is just awesome
<dholbach> I believe the team is hanging out in #ubuntu-mobile and they'll be happy to take your questions
<dholbach> there'll be loads going on at UDS regarding ARM, Mobile and all the rest of it
<dholbach> I personally just love how diverse Ubuntu Open Week is. When I first got interested in Open Source if you wanted to get involved, there was "check out cvs, start hacking" and nothing else
<akgraner> dholbach, Open Week is what hooked me on learning more :-)
<ClassBot> DrKenobi asked: can i use Lernid in Ubuntu Open Week in Spanish?
<dholbach> Open Week should give you a great insight into translating, our LoCo community, all the different subprojects (Edubuntu, etc.), Getting Help, keeping your team energised, and ... hacking too :)
<jcastro> we'll be adding some Kubuntu sessions as well
<dholbach> Are there any more questions about Open Week? Particular sessions? Particular parts of the community? Come on, don't be shy! :)
<jcastro> (Pro tip: check the schedule often)
<dholbach> Thank God there's jcastro and his pro tips!
<dholbach> You can ask dpm personal questions too, if you like.
<dpm> DrKenobi, right now it is not possible to connect there with Lernid, but we can probably work on that
 * dpm hugs dholbach
 * dholbach hugs dpm back :)
<jcastro> Any more questions?
<ClassBot> quappa1 asked: What's "Proactive Security Demo" session on the 5th of May by Kees Cook?
<dpm> You can find out more information about the sessions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Lucid/SessionLeaders
<dpm> as per the security session:
<jcastro> the security demo should be cool
<jcastro> it's the first time he's doing something like this
<dpm> "See the kinds of proactive security in Lucid, and how it works. I'll be using an EC2 "screenbin" session to show off how Ubuntu is protected from many common (and uncommon) security vulnerabilities.
<dpm> Includes password hashing, stack protection, catching buffer overflows, non-executable memory, NULL-pointer protection, memory randomization, AppArmor, and plenty more. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Matrix"
<dpm> sounds interesting indeed!
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> ANy other questions before we start the Ubuntu One Session?
<dholbach> Maybe anything else regarding Ubuntu and its community you were wondering about?
<dpm> or any aspects in which you think you could contribute and you'd like to ask how?
<jcastro> dholbach: I guess we'll wait the 5 minutes for the next session
<jcastro> smoke if you got em!
<dholbach> OK, then let's take a 5 minute break until aquarius introduces us to Ubuntu One.
<dholbach> Time for everybody to stock up on coffee, tea and snacks - whatever keeps you going. :-)
<dholbach> Have a fantastic Open Week!
<akgraner> Thanks dpm dholbach and jcastro you all rock!
<dholbach> and thanks for coming!
<dholbach> akgraner: you too! :)
<dpm> Thank you everyone for listening, now let's have a rocking Ubuntu Open Week!
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Ubuntu One - Instructor: aquarius || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<aquarius> Hi there! I'm Stuart Langridge, and I'm the technical architect for Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> Over the next hour, I'm going to give an introduction to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> I suspect most of you have heard of Ubuntu One, and may have tried using it.
<aquarius> By "it", here, I mean "Ubuntu One file sync".
<aquarius> So during this talk I'll be talking about that, some of the other things that Ubuntu One gives you that you may not know about, and some indications of the future.
<aquarius> Feel free to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat at any point, and I'll stop regularly to answer them. Please write QUESTION at the beginning of your question so I can see it more easily!
<aquarius> The Ubuntu One website (https://one.ubuntu.com) says that "Ubuntu One is the personal cloud service that simplifies your digital life."
<aquarius> That's what we do -- we make it easier for you to live digitally.
<aquarius> The first service we built is file sync, and that's the one that most people know about.
<aquarius> If you're not using Ubuntu One at the moment, a brief description of file sync:
<aquarius> if you sign up (Me Menu > Ubuntu One in Lucid), you'll get a folder, "Ubuntu One", in your home folder
<aquarius> and the contents of that folder are synced up to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> They're also synced down to any other machines that you have, too.
<aquarius> So if you've got your main computer and a laptop, you can put files in your Ubuntu One folder on the main computer and those files will appear on the laptop too.
<aquarius> I, personally, use this for my music; I've got 8GB of mp3 files that I've ripped from CDs or bought from the Ubuntu One Music Store (of which more later!) and I put that music in my Ubuntu One folder.
<aquarius> Now it's on my laptop *and* on the computer connected to my television in the lounge *and* on the computer connected to the monitor in my bedroom
<aquarius> So my music is everywhere. I like that, because it means I can listen to Portishead upstairs without ever having to think about it!
<aquarius> Your files are also available from other machines, too, through the web.
<aquarius> If you sign in to the Ubuntu One website you can browse through all your files and download them, upload new ones, and so on.
<aquarius> This is jolly useful if you're over at a friend's house, or you're at work.
<aquarius> The website is a quick and easy way to get at files from Windows machines, for example, when you're at work (if you're not able to use Ubuntu there).
<aquarius> This means that you can take advantage of automatic file backup just by having your application save things to the filesystem!
<aquarius> Imagine that you want attachments that you receive by email to be stored online and backed up so you can get at them later.
<aquarius> Most mail programs will already let you do this in some way. So, change the folder that these attachments are saved in to be an Ubuntu One folder and suddenly all your attachments are backed up online and available on every machine!
<aquarius> For example, there is a Thunderbird attachment called "Attachment Extractor" (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/556)
<aquarius> Install it, select "Automatically extract attachments on email receipt" in Tools > AttachmentExtractor settings > Auto-Extract, and set the "Save Path for Attachments" to /home/YOU/Ubuntu One/Mail Attachments, and that's all you need!
<aquarius> OK, that's the basic description of the first Ubuntu One service, file sync, and I imagine many of you may have already known that bit.
<aquarius> Now I'm going to talk over a few things that you might not know about.
<aquarius> A really easy way to get a file to someone else is by publishing it with Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> Pick any synced file and right-click on it; there'll be a "Publish via Ubuntu One" option on that right-click menu.
<aquarius> Once you've done that, the menu item will change to "Copy Ubuntu One public URL". Choose that, and we'll put a publically available URL for that file on your clipboard.
<aquarius> So publishing any file so that anyone can see it is just two clicks, and then paste the URL into your email or twitter message or document.
<aquarius> It's a really simple way of sending files to people, or making them available for a presentation.
<aquarius> If you just want a quick way of getting a picture or a presentation or whatever to someone, drop it into U1 and publish it.
<aquarius> You can also publish files with the web site as well, if you're on another machine that isn't connected to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> Just log in to one.ubuntu.com, upload your file, then choose "Publish file" under "More".
<aquarius> Then you''ll have a public URL for that file, looking like http://ubuntuone.com/p/1xI/, which you can give to anyone so they can see it.
<aquarius> A second cool thing about file syncing is that you can now sync *any* folder to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> Choose any folder you want, right-click on it, and say "Synchronize on Ubuntu One".
<aquarius> And then that folder will work just like your ordinary Ubuntu One folder; anything in it is synced up to U1 and down to your other computers too.
<aquarius> This is really useful for some of your standard folders, like Documents, Music, or Pictures, but you can do it with any folder you want.
<aquarius> I know some people have put their Desktop folder into Ubuntu One, so that all the little random things they download off the net are available to them from anywhere.
<aquarius> Any questions so far about file syncing and publishing?
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: The UbuntuOne interface seems to written entirely for Ubuntu only. When will users of other distros and dirivatives be able to use it?
<aquarius> There's a Google Summer of Code project being done by Harald Sitter to integrate Ubuntu One into KDE
<aquarius> and I know there's been some work done to make Ubuntu One available on other distributions as well
<aquarius> The Ubuntu One software is fairly Gnome-specific at the moment, which is why we're really excited about the KDE work!
<aquarius> It shouldn't be hard to use Ubuntu One on other Gnome-based distributions; if someone wants to do that we'd be more than happy to give pointers on any problems
<ClassBot> imbrandon asked: is u1 licenced in such a way we can make clients for other OS's like OSX and W32 ? I'm working on porting the u1 music store to Debian now and was wondering about "all the u1 bits"
<aquarius> Yes, it is. The client code is all open source.
<aquarius> Some work has already happened on a Windows Ubuntu One file sync system -- that happened at Pycon in the US a few months ago
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: Are there any plans to allow access through any other file managers besides Nautilus?
<aquarius> It would certainly be possible to integrate Ubuntu One into other file managers
<aquarius> This is likely to be a big part of Harald Sitter's work on the KDE port
<aquarius> and if someone works on another file manager and hits problems, we'd be happy to offer suggestions
<ClassBot> kklimonda_ asked: are you planning on letting 3rd party developers integrate their applications with the U1 web interface? for example if someone prepares "a better" note taking software that isn't compatible with a tomboy will he be able to hook it into web interface somehow?
<aquarius> If you build a different note taker, then if you make it implement the Tomboy syncing API, it will work with Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> The Tomdroid team, who make a notes app for Android phones, did exactly that, and Tomdroid works with Ubuntu One.
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: Ubuntu worked under Xubuntu 9.10. Under Xubuntu 10.10, the changes made to Ubuntu prevent Xubuntu from syncing any longer.
<aquarius> That would be usefully brought up in #ubuntuone, where our support people may be able to help work out what changed
<ClassBot> kyubutsu asked: how secure is the cloud ?
<aquarius> That's a small question with a large answer! We recommend that if you have files you particularly want to be secure, that you encrypt them before syncing.
<aquarius> One thing that would be a very cool project for someone to work on would be to integrate Ubuntu One file syncing with Ubuntu's encrypted private folders.
<ClassBot> svenmh asked: Might there be fuse access like sshfs?
<aquarius> You don't need fuse to get at Ubuntu One synced files -- they're there directly on your filesystem
<aquarius> We deliberately decided to not implement some sort of "virtual" filesystem: your files are right there on your disk all the time.
<aquarius> If you've read any of the press attention or reviews of the new Ubuntu release, 10.04 LTS, you will no doubt have seen that you can now buy music!
<aquarius> New in the Lucid release is the music store. If you have an Ubuntu One account then you can buy music from major labels.
<aquarius> The music is first transferred to your cloud storage in Ubuntu One, and then down to each of your computers, just like synced files.
<aquarius> So your music is available wherever you are.
<aquarius> I introduced my mum to the music store this weekend and she simultaneously delighted and disappointed me by downloading a Five album.
<aquarius> She likes it because she can buy music on the computer upstairs and it automatically appears on the machine downstairs which is connected to their television.
<aquarius> So she bought an album on the desktop computer, listened to it through the television, and then transferred it to her mp3 player so she could also listen to it while walking.
<aquarius> The music store is available in Rhythmbox, the Ubuntu music player.
<aquarius> It's also available in Banshee, thanks to some great community work by directhex, and I'd love to talk to people who want to see the music store available in other players too, so if you know a developer (or are one!) then I can give some pointers there.
<aquarius> We also donated 50% of our revenue from the music store to the charity SOS Lynx, which you can read about at http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/music-store-lynx.
<aquarius> Negotiating deals with record labels is a complicated business at times, which is why we have different "territories" within the Ubuntu One Music Store.
<aquarius> The UK, the USA, and Germany have access to all the music that there is. The rest of the EU has some of it (from two of the four major labels), and the rest of the world has access to independent label music.
<aquarius> You can read about the territories at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/FAQ#Music%20Store and we're planning to have some way that you can "vote" to have your country be a specific territory so that it gets access to all the major labels.
<aquarius> I'll stop again here for questions.
<ClassBot> qense asked: Early in the life of Ubuntu One I think there was some talk about the 'migrationless desktop' where you wouldn't have to migrate your settings from X via Y to Z just to get it in the right format because all data would be stored in CouchDB on an application-agnostic way. Is this still a goal of the project, or has it been forgotten a bit?
<aquarius> It's still a goal -- I did a lot of thinking about this during the development cycle for 10.04 LTS.
<aquarius> I'll talk in a bit about applications storing their data that way.
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: If you opt for the 50GB online storage, is there a way to control what is synced to your pc if you dont have room for 50GB of stuff on your laptop?
<aquarius> Not quite. We're going to be working on that during the new development cycle for Ubuntu 10.10.
<aquarius> It's possible right now if you're a command-line aficionado, but we want to make it possible for everyone.
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: Are you going to make a game store, similar to Steam, so companies who make Linux games can sell them in an easy way?
<aquarius> That idea's been discussed :)
<aquarius> I don't want to talk too much about future plans because we have a huge list of things that we want to do, and we're still working on deciding what should happen in the next release.
<aquarius> A good place to bring that up for discussion is at the Ubuntu Developer Summit next week in Brussels, if you can make it along!
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: I know the server-side code for U1 is closed source, but is it available for people to make changes and submit patches?
<aquarius> No, it's not available.
<aquarius> OK, I shall carry on :)
<aquarius> We've built a personal database for every user, which is called "desktopcouch".
<aquarius> The advantage of applications that use this database is that the data is automatically synced to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> So if you use an Ubuntu One enabled application, all the data for that application will automatically be available on all your machines...
<aquarius> ...without you having to do anything at all!
<aquarius> This is what qense's question was about, earlier. :)
<aquarius> Gwibber, for example, the Twitter/Identica/Facebook broadcast messages program, uses desktopcouch for this.
<aquarius> And Quickly, the application authoring tool for Ubuntu, also uses desktopcouch quite heavily.
<aquarius> We're working with application authors on both the Ubuntu desktop and the web to help them Ubuntu One enable their applications, so you, the users, will get all these benefits.
<aquarius> A good example of this enabling is contacts synchronisation.
<aquarius> In Evolution, the Ubuntu mail and contacts program, you can store all your friends work contacts.
<aquarius> (er, friends *and* work contacts :))
<aquarius> And because Evolution is Ubuntu One enabled, all those contacts are synchronized up to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> and then down to your other machines, so you've got your Evolution addressbook everywhere.
<aquarius> This means that you can get at them through the web as well -- on one.ubuntu.com you can see all your contacts, and their phone numbers and addresses, which makes it really easy to get at someone's phone number when you're away from your desk.
<aquarius> Built on top of that contacts synchronisation is another new Ubuntu One feature for Lucid: phone sync.
<aquarius> This means that you can also synchronize your mobile phone's addressbook with Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> So not only is your phone's addressbook backed up, but those people's details are available on your desktop and on the web too!
<aquarius> No more having people write their phone number on your hand in nightclubs: just put it in your phone and sync, and it's there on the web too for when you want to email them from work on Monday morning!
<aquarius> (You can use it for work contacts too, of course. :)
<aquarius> iPhone users will find an Ubuntu One app in the App Store to do exactly this; Android users will also find such a thing, but Ubuntu One phone sync isn't limited to the latest smartphones. Almost every phone is supported.
<aquarius> Just go to one.ubuntu.com and look in Contacts to find out how to set up your phone for syncing to Ubuntu One.
<aquarius> Questions about contact and phone sync?
<ClassBot> quappa1 asked: Is there a way to have an Ubuntu One enabled program and still use different settings on different computers?
<aquarius> Every Ubuntu One enabled application can choose which data it wants to sync
<aquarius> So that's really up to the application developers.
<aquarius> We take care of making sure that any data that you or your app developers want to be available everywhere...is available everywhere.
<aquarius> Deciding *which* data you want to have synced is for app authors to decide
<aquarius> So if you'd like to see some settings synced, and some not, have a chat to the authors of the apps you use and ask them to Ubuntu One enable their apps!
<ClassBot> mbudde asked: Do you have a link to list of supported phones?
<aquarius> if you go to one.ubuntu.com/phones it'll show the big list of phones
<aquarius> https://one.ubuntu.com/phones/ will help you sign up
<ClassBot> funcrunch asked: Is there an easy way to import Google contacts into Ubuntu One?
<aquarius> I'm not completely sure of the answer to this one :)
<aquarius> Evolution supports Google contacts, and it's also Ubuntu One enabled
<aquarius> but I'm not sure if anyone's tried combining the two yet
<aquarius> I'd love to hear a report on how that goes if you do try it!
<aquarius> Do please drop into #ubuntuone and let us know that it works; if it doesn't work, the people in there will be able to give you some pointers as to how to make it work, hopefully.
<aquarius> rodrigo_ is the expert on this, so listen to him :-)
<ClassBot> daengbo asked: Is application configuration for Ubuntu apps moving toward DesktopCouch and away from GConf?
<aquarius> I don't think there's any overall policy either way
<aquarius> using desktopcouch has some advantages for apps, as I've talked about
<aquarius> one of the things we'd be interested in talking about is ways to closer integrate the two
<aquarius> UDS is a good place for that sort of discussion!
<ClassBot> sirmacik asked: How many space do we have for our files on Ubuntu One server?
<aquarius> the basic account gives you 2GB of space
<aquarius> If you upgrade to the premium plan, in addition to the other stuff you get, you also get 50GB of space.
<aquarius> Ubuntu One knowing about your contacts makes lots of other things possible, too.
<aquarius> One of the little-known features of Ubuntu One file syncing is sharing folders.
<aquarius> You can give other people access to a folder of yours so that they can see or edit the files in there.
<aquarius> This is a great way to collaborate on a project, or to distribute documents to a team.
<aquarius> On any synced folder, right-click and say "Share on Ubuntu One".
<aquarius> You can then choose the group of people from your contacts who you want to share this folder with (and add new contacts if you need to).
<aquarius> It's a good way to send out a pile of files to some people without publishing them to a public address.
<aquarius> It's also a good way for you to work together with people, because you can allow your friends and colleagues to edit the files in the shared folder.
<aquarius> And it's a lot simpler than emailing around a huge document!
<aquarius> Ubuntu One also handles syncing of Tomboy notes.
<aquarius> Tomboy, if you don't use it, is an app for taking notes on your desktop.
<aquarius> Some people use it for just making the occasional list; others run almost their whole lives out of a stack of Tomboy notes!
<aquarius> Tomboy supports note synchronization with Ubuntu One, so your notes are backed up, and (like everything else) you can also get at your notes through the Ubuntu One website.
<aquarius> (This is really handy when you made a shopping list on your desktop and then forgot to bring it to the shops!)
<aquarius> Similarly to notes sync, Ubuntu One also syncs your Firefox bookmarks.
<aquarius> So bookmarking a site on one machine means that it's bookmarked on all your other machines too!
<aquarius> Your bookmarks will also be available through the web soon (we're still working on that one).
<aquarius> You can find out more about all of the things that Ubuntu One offers from the website: the feature tour at https://one.ubuntu.com/features/ has a good overview of all the things we do
<aquarius> and there are FAQs and tutorials available from there as well which will talk you through how to make the best of each of the things that Ubuntu One gives you.
<aquarius> I'll stop again for questions here.
<ClassBot> quappa1 asked: How are conflicts resolved in Ubuntu One? E.g. editing the same file from different computers.
<aquarius> At the moment, if you do that sort of editing, you'll get two copies of the file, one called file.u1conflict, so that you don't lose anything.
<aquarius> One of the things that we plan to work on is offering more help with fixing a file conflict.
<aquarius> But conflicts are actually quite rare, we've found, which is nice. :)
<aquarius> quappa1 and JanC__ have mentioned that having different application versions on different machines makes syncing settings more difficult
<aquarius> I completely agree :)
<aquarius> This is one of the reasons that we're not pushing very hard for automatic syncing of settings between machines.
<aquarius> It's a harder problem than it appears to be at first, and we want to get it right
<aquarius> Grabbing me at UDS for a chat would be great if you want to talk about this :)
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: On the same note, how does it handle conflicts in Notes or Contacts?
<aquarius> Notes conflicts are handled in Tomboy when syncing; you're offered a number of ways of handling the issue
<aquarius> Evolution also handles contact conflicts, and U1 Phone Sync handles them too.
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> imbrandon asked: can you choose what bits are syncd by default, eg i want file sycying of my music, but not notes or bookmarks
<aquarius> Yes. If you click Ubuntu One under the Me Menu, you'll see under Services that you can choose what you want synced and what you don't.
<ClassBot> quappa1 asked: Oh, cool. Then the same question about conflicts for settings in desktopcouch. What about them?
<aquarius> CouchDB, the underlying technology for desktopcouch, keeps both versions of conflicted things.
<aquarius> Application authors can then use the CouchDB conflict technology to deal with them in the most appropriate way for that application.
<aquarius> Since the app authors know the most about the data in their app!
<ClassBot> daengbo asked: How are music purchases handled when your 2GB quota has been reached?
<aquarius> Music purchases can still be made if you've reached your quota
<aquarius> But you won't be able to sync any further non-purchased-music files until you upgrade to the better plan.
<aquarius> <kai_> Is it possible to sync the rhythmbox library (playlists, valuations etc.) between two computers? Which folder do I have to sync for this settings?
<aquarius> It's not yet possible.
<aquarius> I'd really, really, really, really, really like that, though :)
<aquarius> If someone would like to do it, I'd love to explain how I think it should work.
<aquarius> You can't do it by syncing folders, because Rhythmbox stores both playlists and other data in its folder, and you don't want to sync the other data.
<aquarius> So the best way to do it would be to write a Rhythmbox plugin that syncs playlists into desktopcouch
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<aquarius> and then you could also have a Banshee plugin that does it, so you could share playlists between different media players, if you decided to change from one to the other!
<aquarius> OK, I've got five minutes left.
<aquarius> Thanks very much for listening! Hopefully you now know more about all the things that Ubuntu One can help you with.
<aquarius> We're always keen to hear more suggestions for things that you'd like Ubuntu One to do, so please come and talk to me or any of the team; we hang out in #ubuntuone, the support channel, and on the ubuntuone-users mailing list.
<aquarius> Any further questions before I hand over to the next session?
<ClassBot> kyubutsu asked: cant you just delete data from the cloud to make space for , say , new music ?
<aquarius> You could do that, yep.
<aquarius> <Chopsticks> Will the new Ubuntu music store be adding music? If so, is there a way to contact them to request an album?
<aquarius> There's a Help link in the music store, which can give you some guidance on asking that sort of question, and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne has some support options and FAQs about the music store as well
<ClassBot> kai_ asked: For playlist syncing I need to write that plugin which completely saves playlists in desktopcouch and thats it?
<aquarius> yep. png me afte the session.
<aquarius> OK, thanks all!
<aquarius> I'll hand over to the Social From The Start team for the next session!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Getting Started with Social from the Start - Instructors: jcastro, segphault || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> Ok hello everyone!
<jcastro> Ken won't be able to make his session so I am going to take over his session and talk about Social from the Start
<jcastro> here's an overall intro with screenshots: http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/02/09/social-from-the-start/
<jcastro> so what exactly is "Social From the Start"
<jcastro> basically, the idea is that people are using all sorts of social websites these days
<jcastro> things like facebook, twitter, identica, qaiku, etc.
<jcastro> so the idea is that since one of the main reasons for using a computer for a large group of people is to talk to their friends, so why not have that built into the OS!
<jcastro> most of the work done for this feature is handled by a program called gwibber
<jcastro> which you can find at http://gwibber.com/
<jcastro> (or if you're running lucid we include it out of the box)
<jcastro> gwibber is the actual tool that integrates with all sorts of social networks
<jcastro> so it does all the heavy lifting for us
<jcastro> we added a bit of ui into what we call the "me menu"
<jcastro> which is the menu in your panel with your name on it
<jcastro> after you've configured gwibber (and your IM), you can use the menu to post to these networks
<jcastro> and also to set your IM status
<jcastro> since we're using the APIs for these services this let's us do cool things, like the ability to "Like" things in facebook right from gwibber
<jcastro> and it lets us integrate things like direct messages in twitter into the messaging menu
<jcastro> so that when someone tweets you a message and you're not around it will queue it up for you in the little messaging menu so that when you return you see the envelope is green and you know you have a message
<jcastro> any questions so far?
<jcastro> !q
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so, I want to talk about some of the things the team is working on for Maverick that will improve this feature
<jcastro> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-social-api
<jcastro> for maverick we will look at exposing an API for desktop apps with a library
<jcastro> this will mean that it will be possible for us to tie in existing desktop apps into your social networks
<jcastro> so for example if you want to share your photos with your friends you can do that
<jcastro> or something I would look to do, is automatically have the people I care about's photos shared with me in f-spot (or whatever)
<jcastro> whatever neat things application authors want to integrate with social networks will be possible
<ClassBot> daengbo asked: I understand that Ubuntu (or Canonical) uses a StatusNet server. Is there any way that Gwibber could be automatically hooked up to that serrver to receive Ubuntu announcements  (e.g. major bugs, UbuntuOne service outages, etc.)?
<jcastro> We have an account that the platform team uses to announce outages
<jcastro> you want to follow @ubuntustatus and @ubuntuone
<jcastro> and many other teams in ubuntu use social networks to get the word out
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: can you hide/delete messages in Gwibber once you've read them?  So you know which ones you've seen if following a tag, etc
<jcastro> currently no
<jcastro> however I know Ryan is looking at making it more obvious of where you were when you were reading last
<jcastro> for example seesmic on android has this cool feature that has the scrollbar remember where you were when you last loaded the application
<jcastro> so you have context
<jcastro> I am keen on getting a feature like that in gwibber
<ClassBot> daengbo asked: I follow those already. I meant pre-set on  first installation so that users automatically get important announcemanets
<jcastro> oh
<jcastro> I am not sure if there are plans for default accounts.
<jcastro> However I will bring that up at UDS
<jcastro> it might make sense to have something like that as a feature!
<ClassBot> toros asked: Will gwibber support identi.ca groups?
<jcastro> I know it supports the !group thing
<jcastro> if it's missing some functionality with groups please file a bug on launchpad.net/gwibber
<jcastro> and also one on the ability to hide posts
<jcastro> ok so let me show you some other cool gwibber plans
<jcastro> ryan has written a status report on his ideas for gwibber
<jcastro> http://gwibber.com/blog/
<jcastro> one of the (unfortunately) non obvious features is the multicolumn view in gwibber
<jcastro> so you can follow different tags, etc in one UI
<jcastro> there is also a roadmap of bugs for gwibber 3.0 here: https://edge.launchpad.net/gwibber/+milestone/3.0
<jcastro> (including future support for google buzz when that API is ready)
<jcastro> any other questions on gwibber before I move on?
<jcastro> in case you didn't notice
<jcastro> we themed gwibber to match the empathy theme
<jcastro> which was written by the Renkoo theme author and adapted for gwibber
<jcastro> so that's where the cool looking bubbles come from
<jcastro> and since the UI is based on webkit (the same HTML engine that powers Chromium and Safari) it let's us do cool UI bits
<jcastro> so if you for example add a flickr account we embed little pictures in the UI when the people you follow post a picture on flickr.com
<jcastro> also, another nifty feature is
<jcastro> if you set up different accounts you can click on the button of the service at the bottom of the UI
<jcastro> so you can post to different services at the same time
<jcastro> or individually
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu
<jcastro> ^^ there are some mockups there that show how we will integrate this kind of service selection into the me-menu itself
<jcastro> any more questions? I was hoping to get more feedback on how people are using gwibber
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so I've unmoderated the channel for a bit
<jcastro> so we can have more of a 2 way discussion on how you all are using gwibber and other social services in ubuntu
<ClassBot> brobostigon82 asked: will gwibber handle facebook comments better in the future?
<jcastro> yeah this is something that definately needs to be improved
<jcastro> the gwibber author will be attending UDS in brussels, and we usually have multiple sessions on how to improve gwibber
<ClassBot> dieresys asked: Is there any plan to optimize Gwibber a little? I found it painfully slow to run it on my netbook
<jcastro> yes absolutely
<jcastro> especially when it comes to start up time, which isn't as fast as it should be
<ClassBot> aquarius asked: when I get more than one reply in Gwibber, all the replies show up separately in the Me Menu, but clicking one of them only removes that one -- so if I get lots of replies, I have to click on them all. What's the plan for improving this?
<jcastro> ok so there's a few ways to fix this
<jcastro> one would be to have less friends (just kidding)
<jcastro> interaction with messaging menu in general needs to be more granular, so this is more of a messaging indicator problem
<jcastro> but it's pretty high on the list to discuss
<jcastro> (the same problem shows up with mail too, which gets confusing)
<jcastro> so does anyone want to chime in on how they use gwibber?
<jcastro> or give other recommendations?
<jcastro> I've un moderated the channel so we can have a group discussion
<aquarius> I love the multi-column thing.
<jcastro> The problem is that it's hard to find
<jcastro> but apparently that's how tweetdeck does it
<jcastro> also, I forgot to mention like my favorite feature
<kyubutsu> everything should be done by 'buttons' !
<jcastro> if someone tweets something really useful you can click on the little gear icon in their tweet
<daengbo> I've got no complaints. The memory is mostly under control now, so things have gotten much better
<jcastro> and save it directly to your tomboy notes!
<aquarius> yeah; the issue is knowing that it's doable. Tweetdeck, out of the box, has more than one column, so you know that it can do that. Gwibber only has one, and up until recently it didn't support multiple columns, so no-one thinks to check
<jcastro> this is useful when people post their favorite tips on stuff
<toros> jcastro: what I really miss that the group tags (like !gwibber) in identi.ca are not converted to links like hashtags (like #gwibber). So I need a web browser when I want to read the messages in a group.
<jcastro> toros: please see launchpad.net/gwibber to see if someone has filed a bug report on that. If not please file one and I'll triage it appropriately
<jcastro> what do you all think about what services we need to add?
<jcastro> (or remove)
<toros> jcastro: okay, I will do that :)
<kyubutsu> i, counterintuitively look for 'broadcast' in the me menu
<kyubutsu> :-/
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: Picasa feeds would be a nice companion to FLickr feeds
<jcastro> yep, on the list
<daengbo> I think SocialNet should be promoted more. As I mentioned earlier, setting up Gwibber to give the user an Identi.ca or other StatusNet account by default and using that for Ubuntu announcements.
<jcastro> and as soon as buzz finishes their api. Pubsubhubhubhubhubhub or something. :)
<daengbo> +1 for PicasaWeb integration
<ClassBot> brobostigon82 asked: how about google wave support?
<jcastro> that one sounds complicated
<jcastro> clearly one would have to design how that interaction would work
<jcastro> it would be nice to have things like wave document updates and stuff in there
<jcastro> I personally am looking forward to more integration with location
<jcastro> like, if I'm travelling have my laptop know where I am so I can post that information to my friends, etc.
<jcastro> are there any other services people are using that we should be looking at?
<jcastro> (RSS feeds should return by 3.0 too)
<jcastro> oh, so let me also say
<jcastro> that though gwibber is a huge important role in "Social from the Start" it's not the only place we can improve
<jcastro> for example it would be nice have f-spot be able to have your friend's photos in there if you want, and also make it easier to push your photos to those kind of services
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: jcastro: can you follow/subscribe from Gwibber's interface yet?
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> that is probably my most annoying bug, but yes, that's for sure on the list of things to fix
<ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: Have you thought about putting some of this functionality in by way of Chromium or Firefox Addons?
<jcastro> I don't think we have looked at that
 * jcastro notes that down
<jcastro> any other ideas on things we should look at?
<kyubutsu> better wording and/or more visibility of options into me menu
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: how about a desktlet widget for Gwibber?
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: I'd like to be able to define the equivilent of IRC highlights, so that I get notifications on more than just replies
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so, I am not familiar with what a desklet is
<jcastro> but you can file that as a wishlist bug on launchpad.net/gwibber
<mhall119> like plasma desktop widgets
<jcastro> ah right
 * jcastro notes that one down
<jcastro> ok so you'd like to just be able to define a term
<jcastro> and then get a notification on it
<jcastro> just like xchat basically?
<mhall119> yes
<jcastro> ah, good idea
<jcastro> on the flip side, I know ryan is keen on adding the ability to ignore tags as well
<jcastro> so if you follow @sil for example
<jcastro> and then he starts hashtagging english politics for 5 hours you can shut him off temporarily
<jcastro> and also the ability to ignore a person in a group
<ClassBot> brobostigon82 asked: and something like a /me in empathy/telepathy aswell, ?
<jcastro> well when you post it's the equivalent of a /me
<jcastro> it says "@yourname blah blah"
<jcastro> we seem to be running out of questions.
<jcastro> aquarius: do you have any comments on how apps can integrate with gwibber via DC and dbus?
<jcastro> ken normally covers that kind of thing
<qense> There is a DBus API for that!
<jcastro> have you used it?
<qense> Actually, the Gwibber client is using that same API as well; the real logic gets done by gwibber-service.
<jcastro> it would be nice if app authors can just add social interaction to their new quickly app!
<qense> I haven't used it.
<aquarius> http://www.kryogenix.org/code/RBMicroBlog/ is a tiny Rhythmbox plugin that tweets the song you're listening to by using the Gwibber API
<aquarius> as one example
<qense> Integrating Gwibber in your application should be very easy since you can use the same DBus APi as the client does (which, again, does not contain the logic)
<jcastro> oh, this is a way cool app aquarius
<daengbo> Any other specific ideas for applications to use the API?
<qense> There was an idea for Software Center to use Gwibber. When I first proposed it the designers didn't seem to like it very much, but iirc it did show up in some Software Center design documents lately. Not sure on that though.
<jcastro> rick spencer made a little photobombing app
<mistrynitesh> what kind of social networking features integrated into kubuntu edition?
<daengbo> Do you hjave a link?
<jcastro> that let's you connect and import your friend's photos so you can draw mustaches on them, etc.
<daengbo> qense: do you have a link?
<jcastro> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/search/label/photobomb <-- information on the photobomb app if people are interested
<qense> daengbo: This is not what I was thinking of, but Twitter is mentioned at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter#Ratings%20and%20reviews>
<qense> as a way of sharing your thought on a certain application from the Software Center
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: Is there a Quickly Widget for Gwibber posting?
<daengbo> qense: Thanks
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> qense: do you know if there's a quickly widget?D
<qense> There isn't any yet, iirc. But I do think that could potentially be a part or a consequence of the planned UDS session on 'Social from the Start' in Maverick.
<qense> If anyone here would like to write a widget, please do so and submit it for review! We'd be glad to help you out with it.
<jcastro> that is a good idea
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: can you use the API from an ubuntu-server install?  Like if we want loco-directory to tweet about upcoming events?
<jcastro> ok I had never thought of that before, also a good idea
<jcastro> gwibber-service should run headless right aquarius?
<jcastro> mhall119: you are full of good ideas today!
<mhall119> it's that or do actual work ;)
<qense> It does but its code is still entangled with the UI's at the moment.
<jcastro> you could make it so each team can tweet events, etc. that would be awesome
<mhall119> jcastro: that's what I want to do, especially with the new status.net domain for locoteams
<qense> It could be that the service depends on GTK, but it doesn't require a graphical interface.
<aquarius> jcastro, um....um. It might do, but then it might not. it uses D-Bus, and desktopcouch also uses D-Bus.
<qense> It would be even better if the service would be separated even further so you don't have to run the whole listeners stuff in order to just post messages.
<aquarius> I'm not sure if you can do D-Bus out of the box on headless installs.
<jcastro> I will ask ken about that, that would be useful for locos
<jcastro> then you can have it send out reminders, etc.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> any other questions?
<mhall119> aquarius: if not dbus, is there a python library we can use to post?
<qense> aquarius: What about NetworkManager, APTDaemon and other DBus users?
<jcastro> (thanks so much everyone for contributing even though the presenter couldn't be here, I've got a nice list of cool ideas I can bring to UDS)
<aquarius> mhall119: the gwibber.lib library is Python, but I thnk it's a wrapper *around* D-Bus.
<aquarius> qu
<aquarius> qense, I don't know. Does NM work headless? the applet isn't there in that sort of environment. Also, NM probably uses the system D-Bus rather than the session D-Bus.
<mhall119> jcastro: jcastro
<jcastro> yep, that is me!
<mhall119> sorry, network hickup
<mhall119> jcastro: give the presenter the list of ideas, and tell him he agreed to implement them all for Maverick
<qense> I haven't seen if the version of NetworkManager on the server is using DBus.
<qense> We should test DBus on the server! :)
<jcastro> I see pain and suffering going down this road, hah
<jcastro> ok, so next up we're going to have Dustin Kirkland talking about byobu
<jcastro> byobu sessions are always fun
 * kirkland fires up an ec2 instance
<kirkland> alrighty everyone ... fire up your terminals!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Byobu - Instructor: kirkland || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kirkland>   ssh -C guest@ec2-184-73-5-80.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> everyone: please run that command
<kirkland> the password is "guest"
<kirkland> please expand your terminal to at least 112x30
<kirkland> (which is a little bigger than the default 80x24)
<kirkland> a few people pouring in ....
<kirkland> alright, let's start!
<kirkland> so you are currently SSH'd into EC2
<kirkland> this is an instance running 10.04 LTS in EC2
<kirkland> and you're watching the "cmatrix" program
<kirkland> but this is about byobu!
<kirkland> byobu is a fancy set of configuration wrapped around GNU screen
<kirkland> screen is a text based "window manager"
<kirkland> really, really powerful
<kirkland> but really complex
<kirkland> byobu is basically "screen for human beings" :-)
<kirkland> alright, let's dive in
<kirkland> try to watch your irc channel and the ssh session you have into ec2
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: 23:b4:5a:d4:83:be:a2:ca:b0:67:86:ef:1a:eb:f3:b7 is the host key's fingerprint?
<kirkland> now, I have read/write permission in this session
<kirkland> mhall119: :-)  thanks for asking, yes!
<kirkland> everyone else just has read permission
<kirkland> you can start your own byobu session in your own terminal on your own system right now too
<kirkland> if you want to play along there as well
<kirkland> so for starters, let's go to the menu
<kirkland> you should see two "tabs" pop up at the bottom of the screen
<kirkland> 0-&$ shell  1*&$ config                                          ubuntu@ip-10-194-73-155 10.194.73.155 Menu:<F9>
<kirkland> currently, the 0 window is highlighted
<kirkland> use F3/F4 to move back and forth between these two windows
<kirkland> the "1" window is the configuration menu
<kirkland> as i said, in this session, i have read/write access, and you're all sharing read access
<kirkland> let's start with the Help part of the menu for a quick intro
<kirkland> the most common screen commands have been mapped to F-keys in Byobu
<kirkland> most importantly, F2 creates new windows
<kirkland> i'm going to do that now
<kirkland> so now I have shells 0 - 4 running
<kirkland> use F3 and F4 to move backward and forward between the windows
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: what flags did you use to create this shared session?
<kirkland> mhall119: i used a program called "screenbin" to create this session
<kirkland> mhall119: install that, and see /usr/bin/screenbin
<kirkland> F5 will refresh the screen
<kirkland> which mainly instantly updates all the of the little status indicators at the bottom
<kirkland> F6 detaches from the session
<kirkland> which is *really* useful if you want to run a bunch of programs on your sever
<kirkland> like a long wget or compile or something
<kirkland> drive home, and then reconnect later
<kirkland> F7 enters scrollback mode
<kirkland> which is nice to scroll way back in logs
<kirkland> F8 renames a window
<kirkland> i just renamed window 2 to "dmesg"
<kirkland> so F3/F4 over to window2
<kirkland> and you can see me scrolling around my dmesg output
<kirkland> it's sort of vi-like in its navigation
<kirkland> F8 is useful to organize your windows
<kirkland> i just renamed window 0 to "top" and started top running there
<kirkland> F9 launches this menu
<kirkland> and F12 locks the screen, which is useful if you're walking away from a terminal and you want to lock the screen, while your programs are still running
<kirkland> besides these, there are dozens of other commands that screen accepts
<kirkland> see the screen(1) and the byobu(1) manpages
<ClassBot> dieresys asked: the characters right to the windows number are constantly changing. What's that?
<kirkland> good question
<kirkland> dieresys: the * identifies the "current" window (which is also identified by the inverted color)
<ClassBot> cyberanger asked: what is the 37# icon at the bottom
<kirkland> the @ means that the window has been "updated" somehow
<kirkland> cyberanger: the 37# is how many users are logged into this session right now ;-)
<kirkland> so let's look at the bottom information
<ClassBot> TMKCodes asked: Does CTRL+A+D detach too? i'm way used to it with screen
<kirkland> go to the window 1, configuration
<kirkland> and let's look at "Toggle status notifications"
<kirkland> TMKCodes: all screen escapes are perfectly passed through to screen, and work just fine
<kirkland> here we have a ton of "widgets" we can add to our session
<kirkland> you can see what's currently turned on
<kirkland> let's turn on a few fun ones
<ClassBot> cyberanger asked: how secure is the lock
<kirkland> battery doesn't make much sense here
<kirkland> nor does cpu temp (this is a virtual machine!)
<kirkland> but "ec2_cost" does!
<kirkland> that's how much I'm paying right now to share this session with all of you
<kirkland> so i just toggled that one on
<kirkland> and i'm going to click Apply
<kirkland> i see a little <F5> icon show up
<kirkland> so I press F5 and refresh my profile
<kirkland> and I see that this EC2 instance is costing me ~$0.39
<kirkland> :-)
<kirkland> let's turn on some more
<kirkland> there, i've turned on a bunch, and i'll explain them from left to right
<kirkland> on the far left is our distro logo, name, and version
<kirkland> if there were any updates available for this system, I would see a white number on a red background
<kirkland> with an !
<kirkland> (but I don't have any updates available)
<kirkland> 36# = 36 concurrent users
<kirkland> 20m = uptime of 20 minutes
<kirkland> ^13kB/s v4kB/s = the average network traffic up and down over the last 3 seconds
<kirkland> 0.04 = the system load
<kirkland> 2x2.7GHz = 2 CPUs, at 2.7GHz
<kirkland> 7.5GB,5% = total memory, and the percent in use
<kirkland> 15GB,6% = total disk space, and the percent used
<kirkland> 18:21 UTC = the current time in UTC
<kirkland> and then the date/time
<kirkland> above and to the right, we see a hint for the F9 -> Menu
<kirkland> the external ip address
<kirkland> and the username@hostname
<kirkland> there are some more interesting notifications that might be more appropriate for your laptop
<kirkland> like your battery, temperature, wifi, etc.
<ClassBot> NielsE asked: how do I close a window?
<kirkland> now, if you use byobu on a bunch of different servers it might be helpful to color code them
<kirkland> NielsE: either "exit" from the shell, or press ctrl-a-k
<kirkland> NielsE: to close all windows, use ctrl-a-\
<kirkland> btw, ctrl-a is the "escape" sequence
<kirkland> it's how you escape from your shell, and give screen itself a command
<kirkland> many of these are hard to remember or press in some cases
<kirkland> which is why Byobu maps the most frequently used ones to easy-to-find F-keys
<kirkland> so now i've changed the colors of the panel at the bottom
<kirkland> perhaps you're running Radiance instead of Ambiance
<kirkland> this might look a bit better, dark text on a light background
<kirkland> actually, there's a lot of different color combinations you can use
<kirkland> so i just mentioned that "ctrl-a" is the "escape sequence"
<kirkland> that's traditionally screen's default
<kirkland> you can change this very easily, if you like
<kirkland> as emacs users often fight with screen taking over ctrl-a
<kirkland> (actually, emacs users could just use ctrl-a-a to get the same functionality, but meh)
<kirkland> you can change your escape sequence in the F9 menu very easily
<kirkland> finally, let's look at the last option at the bottom
<kirkland>                     â     Byobu currently launches at login (toggle off)                   â
<kirkland> this is really, really, really useful, in my not-so-humble-opinion ;-)
<kirkland> i *always* setup all of my ubuntu desktops and servers to launch byobu by default at login
<kirkland> this means that every time I log into a system on the console or via ssh, i'm in a byobu session
<kirkland> and i can create multiple windows/shells, and navigate between them easily
<kirkland> this sure beats having 5 separate ssh session to get 5 shells on my server
<kirkland> also, it gives me the ability to attach and detach
<kirkland> in your local terminal (where you have read write access), try this ....
<kirkland> Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal
<kirkland> enter "byobu"
<kirkland> press F2 a few times
<kirkland> maybe run "top" in one window
<kirkland> perhaps "w3m http://google.com" in another
<kirkland> and then press F6 to detach
<kirkland> close your terminal
<kirkland> open another terminal
<kirkland> and type "byobu"
<kirkland> you should get launched back into the same session, with your programs still running
<kirkland> so this is really useful
<ClassBot> cyberanger asked: how secure is the lock on byobu, would it really simple to bypass & thus is better for deterrence or is it relible to actually keep someone out?
<kirkland> cyberanger: hmm, probably deterrence, but I have not audited that bit of screen's code
<kirkland> alrighty questions?
<kirkland> before we move onto the hard stuff :-)
<akgraner> There's no questions right now that I can see
<kirkland> alright, so eyes back to the ec2 session
<kirkland> let's explore where byobu puts stuff, and how to get at the power features :-)
<kirkland> once you've run byobu once, you have a ".byobu" directory
<kirkland> in here, we have a few things
<kirkland> files
<kirkland> that byobu sources
<kirkland> the "color" file describes the foreground and background colors
<kirkland> and the monochrome bit can make it look really nice with the new icons in the top right of the Ubuntu 10.04 desktop
<kirkland> i'm going to enable that, and then hit F5
<kirkland> slick?
<kirkland> but i like color :-)
<kirkland> so ec2_rates is just the rates that EC2 charges
<kirkland> that file is there such that you can modify them, in case Amazon changes their rates before I can roll an update out for byobu
<kirkland> you can add your own custom keybindings in the keybindings file
<kirkland> some people like to change or add their own
<kirkland> the "status" file is how you'd manually turn status scripts on and off
<kirkland> also, some status scripts take tunable parameters
<kirkland> for instance, the "disk" one monitors the / filesystem by default
<kirkland> but you could change this to say /home or whatever
<kirkland> the byobu manpage is your friend
<kirkland> it tells you all about these
<kirkland> there's one example on the screen, MONITORED_DISK=/wherever in $HOME/.byobu/statusrc
<kirkland> the windows file is interesting, in that you have have byobu launch with a bunch of windows opened for you, running programs you want, at launch time
<kirkland> and then there's the biggie ...
<kirkland> profile
<kirkland> by default, profile -> /usr/share/byobu/profiles/common
<kirkland> that's the one that we "ship"
<kirkland> you could copy that here, and edit it, if you like
<kirkland> hold your breath ....
<kirkland> so this is the source code for the actual "profile"
<kirkland> this is what you'd have to write for yourself, from scratch, if you wanted to do all of this in screen by itself
<kirkland> hardstatus string '%99`%{-}%{=r}%12` %100`%112`%= %130`%102`%101`%129`%131`%127`%114`%115`%108`%128`%125`%126`%113`%119`%117`%116`%106`%104`%103`%105`%107`%123`%132`%120`%121`'
<kirkland> that, for instance, is your bottom status line :-)
<kirkland> and hopefully now you see "why" I think that byobu is screen for human beings :-)
<kirkland> oh, and one really cool new feature for the 10.04 byobu
<kirkland> "custom" status scripts!
<kirkland> you can write your own status notification *trivially*
<kirkland> first, let me disable a few to make some room
<kirkland> alright, i got rid of disk and network
<kirkland> so let's add a notification that states the kernel version
<kirkland> we can get that with uname -r
<kirkland> so let's mkdir bin in .byobu
<kirkland> go into bin
<kirkland> and let's create a file called 10000_kernel
<kirkland> the "10000" states how often in seconds the script needs to run
<kirkland> clearly, we don't need to run this often, as your kernel version doesn't change (unless you reboot)  :-P
<kirkland> and the _kernel just names the script
<kirkland> in that script, i just added some simple shell code
<kirkland> that calls uname -r
<ClassBot> TMKCodes asked: if i use byobu does it cost? as i tried it and it showed ~$2.30 ec2_cost
<kirkland> this script can be in whatever language you want, as long as it's executable, and writes to standard out
<kirkland> notice that it's not showing up yet
<kirkland> because the script is not executable
<kirkland> this is a simple way to enable/disable your custom scripts
<kirkland> so let's make it executable
<kirkland> and now F5
<kirkland> 2.6.32-305-ec2 ---  woohoo :-)
<kirkland> now, go crazy writing your scripts to monitor whatever it is you care about
<kirkland> TMKCodes: byobu tries to use the algorithm Amazon uses to estimate cost
<kirkland> TMKCodes: basically, it's a function of your a) uptime, b) processors, c) memory, d) disk utilization, e) network utilization
<kirkland> TMKCodes: as such, if you run it on a sever in EC2, it'll show you pretty close to what that instance costs you
<kirkland> TMKCodes: if you run it somewhere else (like your laptop, or your own server), it will show you what that machine (since boot) would have costed you in EC2
<kirkland> see http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/ for the gory details
<kirkland> so let's disable the kernel version
<ClassBot> gsmx asked: where can you change the color of this kernel script?
<kirkland> chmod -x and then F5
<kirkland> gsmx: you'd need to hack the color markup in line
<kirkland> gsmx: i have added documentation to the man page as to how to do this in the latest upstream release, though its not in 10.04
<kirkland> okay, let's take a look at another useful notification for servers
<kirkland> let's say you want to monitor your daemon, if it's running
<kirkland> for grins, let's monitor "atd" on this system
<kirkland> yeah, not the most interesting service
<kirkland> but image it's some really important process you *must* have running on your server
<kirkland> in the manpage, i see the "services" option
<kirkland> it tells me to hack the SERVICES variable in the status file
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kirkland> so i add this: SERVICES="atd,atd"
<kirkland> whoops, i add this: SERVICES="atd|atd"
<kirkland> where this is a a whitespace separated of services, each service should include the init name of  the service, then a pipe, and then an abbreviated name or symbol to display when running
<kirkland> so i find this useful on my server running ssh, apache, squid, rsync, ftp, etc.
<kirkland> there's just a few more minutes left... i'd like the open the floor for questions
<kirkland> perhaps suggestions of things you'd like to see in byobu in the future (if you're already a byobu user)
<kirkland> <vocx> byobu (screen) seems cool and all that, but I feel that it's quite a scary topic for the average user when people mention byobu in the context of cloud computing, EC2-Amazon, virtualization, etc. Perhaps basic examples should be provided for those that aren't enterprise users.
<kirkland> i saw this comment ...
<kirkland> I hope I did give some non-scary examples
<kirkland> if you're at all familiar with the command line even a little bit, byobu should be very intuitive
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: Can I apt-get install ubuntu-desktop and VNC into an EC2 instance and still get this bottom display?
<kirkland> ubuntoogle: you can, if i understand you correctly
<kirkland> ubuntoogle: though your vnc and your ssh connections will be separate
<kirkland> ubuntoogle: but once you've vnc
<kirkland> 'd in, you'd run a terminal
<kirkland> <JanC__> QUESTION: something nice to add would be custom pre-configured "new windows" for the F2 menu
<kirkland> JanC: actually, that's already there
<kirkland> JanC: F9 ->                     â     Create new windows                                               â
<kirkland> see the shared session
<kirkland> here, you can create a new window
<kirkland> and then F9 ->                     â     Manage default windows                                           â
<kirkland> here, you can toggle on/off your default windows
<kirkland> there's a bare set of 4 that are stock, but as you add more to your profile, they will show up here
<kirkland> and will just get commented out in your ~/.byobu/windows file
<kirkland> alrighty, guys, i'm about done
<kirkland> join us in #byobu if you have more questions
<kirkland> or just want to learn more about #byobu
<kirkland> there's a few people there besides myself who can hel
<kirkland> help
<kirkland> i think byobu makes the command line "fun" again :-)
<kirkland> so I appreciate you listening to me blabber on about it :-)
<akgraner> Thanks kirkland! Great Session!!
<akgraner> Up Next Finding Help in Ubuntu with Technoviking
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Finding Help in Ubuntu - Instructor: Technoviking || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Technoviking> Afternoon all
<Technoviking> This session will be very short and sweet and for people pretty new to Ubuntu.
<Technoviking> My name is Mike Basinger, I'm a member of the Ubuntu Forums Council and Forums Admin, and the Ubuntu Community Council
<Technoviking> I also write the Q&A column for Ubuntu User magazine.
<Technoviking> One of the major strength of open source over our commerical counterparts is the large community-driven support assicated with diferent projects
<Technoviking> In Ubuntu we have a wide vareity of community support areas where you can get techincal support for Ubuntu Linux
<Technoviking> Forums: http://ubuntuforums.org or http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/webforums (my favorite :))
<Technoviking> Mailing Lists: https://lists.ubuntu.com/
<Technoviking> Launchpad Answers: https://answers.launchpad.net/
<Technoviking> IRC: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<Technoviking> and LoCo teams: http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<Technoviking> The quality of the support you get will be same as the quality of information you give people about your problem
<Technoviking> other word crap in = crap out, gold in = gold out
<Technoviking> The are a few thing you should do when asking tech support questions in Ubuntu
<Technoviking> 1. Be Proactive
<Technoviking> Search Google, the forums, and other online resources for your problem and possible solution.
<Technoviking> Google is your friend, and a good Google search will provide tons of tech support answer for common questions
<Technoviking> Respond when people ask for more information on your issue.
<Technoviking> When you ask a question, someone may ask for more information, be sure to provide back any infromation asked for (within reason, ie, no one needs to know any of your passwords)
<Technoviking> See if the problem happen on more than one machine.
<Technoviking> This help determine if it a machine related or over all general problem.
<Technoviking> Be Precise:
<Technoviking> Give as much details as possible on the problem you are having.
<Technoviking> Once again, the better information you give, the better chance someone help assist you.
<Technoviking> Know exactly what hardware you are using
<Technoviking> t is better to say "My Intel 3945 wireless card is drops packets" than "My wireless card it broken"(lspci is your friend.)
<Technoviking> lspci is a commmand line tool that will list the hardware connected to you pci bus
<Technoviking> so lspci | grep Network will list your network cards
<Technoviking> In my case 06:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless WiFi Link 5100
<Technoviking> Be Honest:
<Technoviking> Be up front if you installed third party software or using a many many PPAs
<Technoviking> It will help people helping you know exactly what is going on on your machine
<Technoviking> Be Patient
<Technoviking> Don't repeat your question over and over again, if someone can answer they will, but it may take a a few hours or days for someone to answer your question.
<Technoviking> and repeat your question multiple time in a short period can get you kicked from IRC channel and infractions on the forums.
<Technoviking> Use the proper tools
<Technoviking> In IRC you should not copy multiple lines of text in an IRC channel. Use pastebin (http://paste.ubuntu.com/) to post your output to IRC.
<Technoviking> Take screenshot of problem or record video of your desktop with gtk-recordmydesktop.
<Technoviking> This will help people helping you see exactly what is happening on your computer.
<Technoviking> Be sure to submit a bug if it is deemed needed. (ubuntu-bug package-name or Help --> Submit Bug Report in many programs).
<ClassBot> TMKCodes asked: What about people who dont know how to give info about their problem?
<Technoviking> I would suggest try to give as much information as they can, or find a Ubuntu Loco or LUG in their area to get some in person support
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: are there any common tools or commands someone should run to help diagnose the problem?
<Technoviking> lspci is great for finding out hardware
<Technoviking> I also run problems from the command line which will give you output from the program in question
<Technoviking> I would suggest lsmod to see what kernel modules are loaded.
<Technoviking> Also the Ubuntu wiki has some great resources for finding out how to debug some problems.
<Technoviking> For example, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WiFiHowTo is a great resource for learning how to debug wireless problems
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: What are the best log files to start looking in?
<Technoviking> running dmesg is a great command line tool to see current kernel message are happening
<Technoviking> System Logfile viewer will (System --> Administration --< System Logfile viewer) will let you browse log files in a GUI format
<ClassBot> brobostigon82 asked: in ubuntu-uk we are going to trial http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/atS35AtTW5 ad guidelines for user support, how good would such guidelines be, inorder to help people find support, in thatwe who are going to help, can better assist.?
<Technoviking> brobostigon82: those are some very good guidelines. I think the main thing to consider is you want everyone to be able to ask for support from your Grandma to Mark Shuttleworth
<Technoviking> brobostigon82: so make sure you consider that document as a guildeline and not set in stone
<Technoviking> when you ask or answer a tech support question, be sure to follow the guidelines in the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
<Technoviking> be respectful to the person, and never say RTFM, just give a gentle nudge to the fine manual if needed:)
<Technoviking> any more questions?
<Technoviking> Canonical does offer paid support for Ubuntu desktop now (I believe), don't have that information with me
<Technoviking> That another option for people to use if community support does not have an answer
<Technoviking> Here is the paid support link http://www.ubuntu.com/support/services
<ClassBot> avu97 asked: is there a way to purchase support on a per incident basis, rather than for at least a whole year?
<Technoviking> avu97: It can be suggested to Canonical. I will forward this comment to them
<Technoviking> if you have any more question, I'n technoviking in irc, the forums, and twitter/identi.ca or you can email me at mike.basinger@ubuntu.com
<akgraner> Technoviking, thank you so much - you are a wealth of information
<Technoviking> thanks for listening and for the question, now lets make Ubuntu 10.04 rock
<akgraner> If there are no other questions for Technoviking that will conclude today's open week sessions!
<akgraner> See you all tomorrow at 1500 UTC :-) for another great day of sessions!
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<keffie_jayx> jcastro: awesome day today
<jcastro> keffie_jayx: thanks!
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  akgraner rocks...
 * cratylus_afk is away: Gone away for now
<JanC> cratylus_afk: please don't use public away messages
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-04
 * cratylus is back.
<cratylus> JanC apologies for that still getting the hang of this client
<cratylus> will fix now
<Hutley> where can i get the logs of classroom?
<Hutley> heheh. i found. sorry the stupid question
<ALdaperan> hello
<sirmacik> Hi class [;
<YokoZar> Hello hello
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Wine Q&A - Instructor: YokoZar || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<YokoZar> Good morning everybody, it's time to start the second day of Ubuntu Open Week
<YokoZar> (08:02:41 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: afternoon here, plus in UTC, which is the time zone Open Week is going by :D
<YokoZar> As sebsebseb has pointed out, there are in fact other time zones than mine.
<YokoZar> I promise to use this information for good rather than evil
<YokoZar> Now, this is meant to be mostly a Q+A session, as in the past I have received more than enough questions to cover an entire hour.  Today's topic is Wine, and I've been Ubuntu's "Wine guy" from pretty much the start.
<YokoZar> Wine, to give a brief summary, is the program that lets you run Windows applications on Ubuntu.  Or, the way I like to think of it, once a program works in Wine it's no longer a Windows application, but rather just a plain old application that works in Ubuntu as well :)
<YokoZar> (08:06:49 AM) johnsgruber: QUESTION: Is it possible, and safe to run something like quicken or Itunes under wine. Those are the two reasons I have to boot windows
<YokoZar> There are two questions here, but they go together.  As a general rule, the worst thing Wine can do when it attempts to run an App is not work.  So if you want to know if you can run a program, it doesn't hurt anything other than your time to try it out
<YokoZar> But there are likely many others who have tested the app before.  If one of them is really nice, they'll have made a recent test entry in Wine's application database (http://appdb.winehq.org/) that you can read.
<YokoZar> The Wine project is always looking for people who can provide more recent test results.  We're also very keen on knowing if an application stops working as well as it did in the past (a "regression"), as it's much easier to fix them when they're caught quickly
<YokoZar> As far as how well iTunes and Quicken work, I would suggest checking the AppDB as it depends on which version of Quicken and/or iTunes.  Both applications are major targets of Wine developers and get worked on a lot, however iTunes in particular uses a lot of "weird" parts of the Windows API and has been a huge effort to get working.
<YokoZar> (08:07:12 AM) sirmacik: QUESTION: Are You adding many changes/patches to the wine package on ubuntu? What they are changing in it?
<YokoZar> I like to keep the Wine package as close to upstream as possible, however there will be a growing difference in later releases.  The reason is that Wine's upstream consists of the "pure" Wine with hardly any interface - the Applications->Browse C: Drive link you see in the package, for instance, originates in Ubuntu
<YokoZar> I will also be merging in (and providing my own code for) another upstream project called Vineyard, which I roughly designed a couple years back and was ultimately coded by Christian Dannie Stroggard.  Hopefully I'll have a demo of this ready by the Ubuntu Developer Summit.  I was originally planning to include it with Wine1.2, however that was not released in time for Lucid
<YokoZar> Consequently, Lucid Wine looks very similar to Karmic Wine, except it's a newer Wine release and refuses to run executables that don't have the execute bit set (more on this later)
<YokoZar> (08:07:45 AM) Nagz: QUESTION: Will the newly working iPhone/iPod access work with iTunes/wine ?
<YokoZar> By this I assume you're talking about the ability to access iPods and iPhones in programs like rhythmbox for music.  This does not affect Wine, as Wine can't use that interface to talk to the iPhones because the programs it runs that do it (namely iTunes) use a different method
<YokoZar> What Wine needs to do that is code for a USB driver - then any arbitrary USB device that a Windows app needed to talk to would work (like iTunes)
<YokoZar> This is different from certain standard USB devices like keyboards and USB sticks, which already work in Wine
<YokoZar> It's a good example of two seemingly unrelated things (like, say, iTunes+iPods and a program that uses a USB license-key dongle) both needing the same underlying Wine component to work.
<YokoZar> There used to be a bit of a joke race between Wine and Songbird about who could access iPods first, but they've both lost ;)
<YokoZar> (08:08:35 AM) gquigs: QUESTION: I want to package some applications (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/387753) that use wine, is their a guide to help me do it?
<YokoZar> No not yet, however you can ask me personally and we'll work on this together.  I've done it before as a prototype, and there are several ways to do it.  I'm quite keen to have more Wine-powered applications in the repository.
<YokoZar> If it's a free software application then we can also attempt to get it building under winelib, which would make things much easier in the future.  Compiling from source is always nice anyway, however there is also work on porting Wine to ARM, and any winelib-based port would be able to start working on ARM without much additional effort -- even though Windows doesn't run on ARM at all!
<YokoZar> *not technically true, since Windows Mobile has an ARM version and the Windows Mobile API is very similar to Win32
<YokoZar> (08:08:37 AM) freckle: QUESTION: is there plans to make buisness apps like Sage Line 500 run well under wine. Currently there are issues with paging screens.
<YokoZar> So it's a little vague if I say that "all apps are supposed to work in Wine", but in a way it's accurate.  Wine is developed with the principle of doing the "right" thing, ie exactly what Windows does.  If a program isn't working it's because Wine developers have either not implemented a Windows function it's using or they've done it incorrectly.
<YokoZar> The former is usually a FIXME: warning if you run Wine in the terminal, and the latter is either an ERR: message or just weird behavior
<YokoZar> Regardless, any program not doing what it's supposed to be doing is a legitimate bug report to file at winehq.org, and if the fix is easy enough to do it can happen very quickly
<YokoZar> That said, Wine developers do target specific apps to try and get working first.
<YokoZar> Generally these applications are Codeweavers' supported applications (~80% of Wine development is paid Codeweavers staff), however there's also a lot of community patches, especially for popular programs.
<YokoZar> (08:10:27 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: Do you think it is ok for Windows programs developer to opt out of making native Linux apps, if their app will work properly in Wine, without a user first having to mess around with wineconfig which tends to not be much fun, if fun at all.  Plus most users don't really know how to use wineconfig properly.
<YokoZar> I agree, I hate winecfg
<YokoZar> Part of the work in the Vineyard project is to replace winecfg with something much nicer that asks only the essential questions
<YokoZar> In an integrated desktop app.  Think System->Preferences->Windows Applications
<YokoZar> Any configuration that a user currently has to do in the registry or by mucking about with Wine should be handled automatically by Wine.
<YokoZar> There's been some effort at making this a reality upstream.  However there are a couple questions that we will always have to make configurable (such as which Windows version to emulate), and that's the kind of question that will live in the new configuration dialog.
<YokoZar> As for whether it's ok for a developer to not make a "native" app, I think it's important to consider what the user experience is like.  If the app doesn't work very well in Wine, then a native app would naturally have many advantages.  However if the app works perfectly in Wine and requires no configuration, then it's a different matter
<YokoZar> In principle a user doesn't even have to know that an app is using Wine internally, much like how Mac gamers don't know when programs are ported using Cider.  This is all a question of packaging - in principle any Windows program could be turned into a proper Ubuntu package (depending on Wine internally), given .desktop entries so it runs from Applications->Games rather than Applications->Wine, given sane default settings, and
<YokoZar> If you do all those things in a program that works perfectly in Wine there wouldn't be any real user experience difference between that and a Native port.
<YokoZar> Porting with Wine rather than a "proper native" port also has advantages to the developer of letting them unify their code bases.  Google's Picassa is ported with Wine in this way, for instance, and they use literally the same binary between Windows and Linux.
<YokoZar> If I had more time I would like to help make this process easier for Windows developers to get their applications ported in a nice, usable way for Ubuntu.  In principle we could even have a "make Ubuntu package based on Wine" plugin for Visual Studio ;)
<YokoZar> (08:13:44 AM) mhall119|lernid: QUESTION: What is the current API version targeted by Wine?
<YokoZar> All of them ;)
<YokoZar> Seriously though, Windows technically has a different version of the API for each Windows version, but Microsoft tries to keep it as similar as possible.  This is why programs written for 3.1 will still work in Windows 7 to a large extent
<YokoZar> Microsoft does add new bits to the API of course (and thus new FIXMEs for Wine)
<YokoZar> So Wine has some code in it that's "do this in Vista-mode, do this in XP mode", but most of Wine is just "do this", much like Windows is
<YokoZar> Really, there's not much difference between switching Wine from Vista to XP mode and setting a Windows application to use "Compatibility mode" in Windows
<YokoZar> Regardless, Wine developers target applications rather than a particular API version, as applications are what people care about.  This is different from the approach of the Mono project, who do target versions of the .net API, but things are much cleaner with .net compared to Win32
<YokoZar> (08:14:45 AM) virtuald: QUESTION: Spotify recently added support to play mp3 files with windows codecs, but when it finds the string WINE-MP3 somewhere it fails, because it didn't work in their limited testing. What can be done about this?
<YokoZar> Spotify can be harassed into working with Wine.  I've actually tried to contact Spotify myself and talk with them personally, because I know they're keen to have better Wine support.  They're actually really nice that way.
<YokoZar> Regardless, it's more or less just another Wine bug, and there are quite a few open Spotify bug reports (in both Launchpad and winehq)
<YokoZar> (08:26:56 AM) sirmacik: QUESTION: Wine is a piece of a really good software, but why it's logs are so unredable? Many times when it crashes it's log tells me nothin'. I know I should paste some sample but unfortunately I don't have any close at hand :/
<YokoZar> A few reasons for this.  One may simply be not having the wine debug symbols installed (which are split into a separate -dbg) package, which gives more usable (to a developer) crash logs
<YokoZar> The other reason is that Wine often doesn't know why it (or the application it's running) crashed
<YokoZar> So if a program asks Wine how many bricks are in the great wall of China, and Wine tells it 2 million when it was supposed to say 3 million, you wouldn't see a "FIXME: wrong number of bricks" message in Wine.  And the program might carry on working for a little bit, until later it runs out of bricks and the mongol hordes invade.
<YokoZar> (08:29:40 AM) sebsebseb: [16:13] <sebsebseb> QUESTION: Do you think it is ok for Windows software developers to opt out of making native Linux apps, if their app will work properly in Wine, without a user first having to mess around with wineconfig, which tends to not be much fun, if fun at all. Plus most users don't know how to use wineconfig properly.
<YokoZar> (08:30:06 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: I mean like utorrent for example website even says it's made for Wine
<YokoZar> To clarify: I think it's ok if the user experience is basically the same as a "real" native app
<YokoZar> Some native apps you have to go through a big hassle to download and install (like Doom3)
<YokoZar> With uTorrent the experience is very similar: you go to a website, download the app, and install it.  That's actually pretty much the same experience as you get on Windows
<YokoZar> But in Ubuntu we can do much better, with proper packages and the Software Center.
<YokoZar> So if, say, there were a uTorrent app with a minimal package that had some .desktop files and put it in Applications->Internet, and it were available through software center, I'd say it's ok that there's no native version.
<YokoZar> (08:30:15 AM) virtuald: QUESTION: how do Vineyard relate to PlayOnLinux, wine-doors and winetricks?
<YokoZar> Vineyard doesn't catalog specific apps like those projects do.  It would work alongside them to replace the stuff currently in the Applications menu.
<YokoZar> One part of Vineyard, for instance, is a python-wine interface.  This allows me to write code for Software center to display installed Wine apps there, so you could then remove programs using Software Center rather than the awkward separate Wine uninstaller
<YokoZar> (08:31:52 AM) amichair: QUESTION: How close is WINE to Windows nowadays? What's the probabiliy of a random windows app working correctly? And at what rate is that probability rising? (hopefully :-) )
<YokoZar> Higher than it used to be, for sure.  It's gotten to the point where I expect most apps to work until I hear otherwise, even games.
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<YokoZar> I actually wondered that exact question - how fast is Wine improving - and went as far as making a mathematical model of Wine's growth
<YokoZar> You can see it on my blog here: http://yokozar.org/blog/archives/48  -- there's even code to download and run your own simulation :)
<YokoZar> But the executive summary is: given any reasonable model of Wine development, how we fix bugs, and what apps are affected by, we should expect applications to work at an increasingly fast pace.
<YokoZar> This is what Wine developers call "collateral damage" - by making one app work by implementing something, you make part of another app work because it needed it too
<YokoZar> Eventually these things add up, and you start having a whole lot of apps work without much (or any) specific effort
<YokoZar> (08:41:25 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: as for Mono it apparnatly can run .NET version 1 apps, anything later than, that nope,  since it's quite different to the actsual .NET.  Plus then the whole Mono is bad for Linux distro's thing, because it uses a Microsoft programming technology #C and they could maybe patent sue distros over that or something.
<YokoZar> So I should talk about Mono for a moment
<YokoZar> It's a sister project in many ways
<YokoZar> Although Wine doesn't communicate as much with Mono as it should
<YokoZar> However there are a good chunk of .net apps that don't yet work in Wine.  Wine is trying to make it so that if you install either Microsoft's .net runtime or Mono's .net runtime these applications will work.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<YokoZar> The Mono project has missing parts of the .net API in much the same way that Windows does.  We maintain a wiki page about what Wine needs from the Mono project, and what ultimately has to come from the community: http://wiki.winehq.org/Mono
<YokoZar> There are some parts that Mono would accept into the code, but no one is getting paid to work on them officially.  Stuff that would be valuable to Wine
<YokoZar> The ultimate goal would be to run "impure" .net apps - so called "mixed mode assembly" apps that use both .net and the Windows API.  These are things that can't run on "just" mono
<YokoZar> They would need Wine too
<YokoZar> As far as patents go, I am completely unworried by them.  It's not because I trust Microsoft at all, but rather it's because Microsoft (and others) have so many patents on so many vague things that Mono is just as much as a problem as any other piece of software.  There are even patents on CLICKING
<YokoZar> (08:47:34 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: proper packages? as in native apps?
<YokoZar> It's a good point - once a program is ported with Wine, installable via software center, and basically looks the same as any other program, it hardly makes sense to not call it "native"
<YokoZar> But often people say "native" when they mean "the hard way of porting that doesn't involve Wine and requires manually rewriting DirectX to use OpenGL and so on"
<YokoZar> Regardless, I believe I got every question.  If I missed yours feel free to ask me personally :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Marketing Your LoCo Team - Instructor: leogg || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<YokoZar> The hour is now up.  I believe leogg is next
<leogg> Heya!
<leogg> For those of you who don't know me...
<leogg> My name is Leandro and I'm a member of the Ubuntu LoCo Council and an active contributor of the Ubuntu Nicaragua LoCo Team
<leogg> Today I'll talk about "Tools, tips and tactics for promoting your Ubuntu Local Team"
<leogg> My intention was to cover several areas, such as the Internet, video and audio production, graphics, newsletters, etc.
<leogg> But I realized yesterday (when I gave this session at the UOW in Spanish), that one hour is not really that much time for this topic :(
<leogg> So I'll give you the 'light' version and focus entirely on the Internet part
<leogg> Hopefully, in the near future, I'll blog some more on this topic if you're interested :)
<leogg> First of all... Why do you need to promote your LoCo?
<leogg> * Recruit new contributors
<leogg> * Share your experiencies with other teams around the world
<leogg> * Show the awesomeness of your LoCo Team!!! :)
<leogg> Let's begin taking a close look at the LoCo website
<leogg> I assume that most (if not all) of the LoCo teams already have a website...
<leogg> So... how is it working for you?
<leogg> Is your website really effective?
<leogg> Do the people who visit your website get involved in the community?
<leogg> One of important questions we always forget to make is "What are the goals of the LoCo website?"
<leogg> * To provide support and information about Ubuntu in your local language?
<leogg> * To educate about free software?
<leogg> * To create an organisational identity (e.g. Ubuntu users from North Carolina)?
<leogg> * To expand your base and mobilise your supporters?
<leogg> * All of the above?
<leogg> We must know all the answers long before we even start to discuss about which platform we're going to use for the site
<leogg> The content and structure of your website will depend on what you want to use the website for
<leogg> But if your LoCo already have a website? What can you do?
<leogg> Well... good news!
<leogg> As all of you know, Ubuntu has a new branding... and that's the perfect excuse for dumping that old dull site and have a new fresh start
<leogg> Who knows? Maybe you'll be able to recruit new contributors for your team :)
<leogg> Keep in mind:
<leogg> The KISS principle! (no... it's not the band!) :)
<leogg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_principle
<leogg> "Keep it simple and straightforward"
<leogg> A website with a overwhelming amount of information may look messy and can be hard to read
<leogg> Remember: Your website is the face of your community to the outside world!
<leogg> I really love http://ubuntu-za.org/
<leogg> Nice, simple, clean
<leogg> (BTW, when are you guys releasing the theme? ;) )
<leogg> It might be a good idea to create a 'webmaster team' on Launchpad and a related project (your website!)
<leogg> Webmaster team:
<leogg> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ni-webmasters
<leogg> Related project:
<leogg> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ni-website
<leogg> Bugs!
<leogg> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ni-website
<leogg> Using LP enables anyone on your team to file bugs against the website (as a way to track errors and improve the site)
<leogg> You can also create blueprints, assign tasks and answer questions (support)
<leogg> Resources for LoCo websites:
<leogg> Drupal, FTW! - http://drupal.org/
<leogg> Most Ubuntu sites uses Drupal (it doesn't mean that you _must_ use it too, but it helps for visual identity and consistency all across the sites)
<leogg> The Ubuntu Drupal Development wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDrupal
<leogg> Ubuntu Drupal Development Suite in LP - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal
<leogg> <drubin> leogg: We changed (ubuntu-za) from media wiki because of the identiy thing
<leogg> I prefer media wiki over moin moin
<leogg> It's easier to use and tweak
<leogg> But you're right abut the 'identity thing'
<leogg> The look-and-feel is important
<leogg> Your users must be aware they're on a Ubuntu site
<leogg> Ok... I have no questions so far...
<leogg> So I'll just move on :)
<leogg> Next:
<leogg> 2. Micro-blogging
<leogg> Micro-blogging sites (such as identi.ca and twitter) allows users to send 'updates' (text-based posts called tweets or dents) up to 140 characters long
<leogg> Twitter and Identica will allow you to send updates to one person, to a closed group of contacts or as public messages that can be seen by anyone
<leogg> These updates are displayed on the user's profile page and also instantly delivered to other users who have signed up to receive them
<leogg> Micro-blogging is a great tool that can deliver your message in a simple and effective way to hundreds (or even thousands) of people
<leogg> If you haven't done it yet, create an account for your team
<leogg> Go! Go! Go! :)
<leogg> You can link your identica account to the twitter account
<leogg> In that way all updates will appear on both sites
<leogg> Another cool thing you can do is link your micro-blogging account to the blogs aggregated on your planet (if you have one)
<leogg> That's a good idea if you don't have much spare time for tweeting/denting
<leogg> http://twitterfeed.com/
<leogg> Make good use of your hashtags!
<leogg> A post in identica with the !ubuntu hashtag will make your update visible to the more than 6,000 members of the Ubuntu users group
<leogg> Again... Make good use of your hashtags! (use it wisely, do not spam!)
<leogg> <drubin> leogg: Do you know when canonical are going to release official themes/fonts?
<leogg> Soon :)
<leogg> Ivanka Majic, the Design Team Lead and all the guys at Canonical are doing a wonderful job!
<leogg> But to be honest, I don't know when they're going to release the official artwork
<leogg> Be sure to check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity
<leogg> <ninnnu> How 'bout just using a Identica-group? Ubuntu-fi went for just creating one of those, and biweekly we gather a blogpost from all the (important) dents. Same post is also put to our Facebook-page.
<leogg> That's a great idea!
<leogg> We have one too :)
<leogg> <vocx> One of the reasons I avoid micro-blogging is precisely because it seems to become spam really fast.
<leogg> True!
<leogg> As I said... use your tools wisely and with moderation :)
<leogg> <drubin> !ubuntu is mostly converstations instead of announcements
<leogg> Yep, and occasionally a lot of flaming
<leogg> Let's move on...
<leogg> 3. Social networking
<leogg> This part may be somewhat controversial (considering that we are part of a free software community)
<leogg> Facebook is not a free platform (neither is Twitter)
<leogg> Should we, as free software communities, use (and promote the use) of non-free platforms?
<leogg> My personal opinion on this:
<leogg> YES!
<leogg> As much as I would love to see the communities use 100% free software...
<leogg> ...the reality is that "we must go where the non-Ubuntu users are"
<leogg> It's useless to advocate about the benefits of free software to our community members
<leogg> They already know this stuff!
<leogg> We must cross the street and persuade our proprietary neighbours... yes, the ones who use Facebook :)
<leogg> Social networks have a viral aspect: people may sign up to your cause because they've seen it in a friend's news feed or on their profile on a social network site
<leogg> Make it easy for people to sign up by adding your social networking profile to your website.
<leogg> * Create fan communities on the social network sites, and encourage your friends to participate
<leogg> * Tell people to use specific tags so you can aggregate (bring together) all content they create that relates to your team
<leogg> Resources on social networking:
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<leogg> Online communities - http://www.facebook.com/
<leogg> (not the only one, but at least the one we use as community)
<leogg> Social bookmarking - http://delicious.com/
<leogg> Social news site - http://digg.com/
<leogg> <drubin> leogg: Why did you split microblogging and Social networking, How did you feel they differ?
<leogg> I think that social networks, such as Facebook, are way more flexible than the micro-blogging platforms
<leogg> For example, you can upload videos and photos to FB and they show up on your profile
<leogg> The same thing cannot be done with twitter or identica
<leogg> Any more questions?
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<leogg> Well... that's all then... :) If you want to get in touch with me, just drop by #ubuntu-centroamerica
<leogg> Thank you, guys!
<akgraner> leogg, Thank you so much!
<akgraner> Up next is Nigel Babu with Patch Team Review
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Patch Review Team - Instructor: nigelbabu - Slides: http://is.gd/bTRv0 || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> Slides for Patch Review Team: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nigelbabu/patch-review.pdf
<nigelbabu> Thanks Amber :)
<akgraner> nigelbabu, the floor is yours!
<nigelbabu> Hello folks!
<nigelbabu> I'm Nigel Babu from the Ubuntu Reviewers Team and I'm here to talk about patch review.
<nigelbabu> I've got a bit of ground to cover, so lets get started.
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 1]
<nigelbabu> The slides for this talk is at http://people.ubuntu.com/~nigelbabu/patch-review.pdf
<nigelbabu> I'm not using them extensively, so if you don't have it, you're not missing much.
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 2]
<nigelbabu> What does the Reviewers Team do?
<nigelbabu> Ubuntu has some amazing contributors contributing patches to bugs they encounter.
<nigelbabu> Over the past few years, we've not been able to handle this large influx of patches.
<nigelbabu> The Ubuntu Reviewers Team works to get these patches reported upstream and thus "give back" to the community.
<nigelbabu> The Ubuntu Reviewers Team get the patch, test it, and report it on the upstream bug tracker if the patch is working.
<nigelbabu> If a patch does not work as expected, the submitter is encouraged to submit a working patch to fix outstanding issues.
<nigelbabu> In case the submitter does not respond, the reviewer makes the modification giving credit to the submitter.
<nigelbabu> If a patch is critical enough, like a security issue or a major blocker, we work to getting it immediately into Ubuntu and forward upstream.
<nigelbabu> This may also qualify for an SRU to previous versions of Ubuntu.
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 2]
<nigelbabu> How can you help?
<nigelbabu> While you can help in many ways, patch review is the important task for the Reviewers Team at the moment.
<nigelbabu> There are more than 1800 open bugs with patches attached that needs review.
<nigelbabu> I'll be covering how to do patch review today.
<nigelbabu> There are more ways that you can help, you can see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/GettingInvolved for those.
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 3]
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 4]
<nigelbabu> Any quesetions so far?
<nigelbabu> moving on then
<nigelbabu> First step is to make a query  for bugs with ubuntu-reviewers subscribed with only patch  tag. Select one to work on.
<nigelbabu> you can see this query in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/ReviewGuide, its a very big link
<nigelbabu> Next step is to reproduce the bug
<nigelbabu> Unless a reviewer reproduces the bug, its kind of difficult to check whether the patch works ;)
<nigelbabu> Next, review the patch and test it.
<nigelbabu> If it does not work properly or needs more work, add the patch-needswork tag. Give the patch submitter some guidance on the rationale for the tag, and ask whether they are willing to update it to resolve outstanding issues.
<nigelbabu> If the patch works, subscribe yourself to the bug, forward the bug and patch upstream, and add patch-forwarded-upstream  tag. If the change on the upstream package is debian specific, add the patch-forwarded-debian tag and forward to Debian.
<nigelbabu> oh yes, subscribing yourself on any bug is very important, this allows you to keep track of the feedback
<nigelbabu> The upstream developers may give positive or negative feedback on the patch, the next step is to review those
<nigelbabu> If upstream accepts the patch, remove patch-forward-upstream tag, and add patch-accepted-upstream (or patch-accepted-debian) tag. Indicate the VCS revision and/or expected upstream/debian version/revision that will include the bugfix. If the change is significant enough to be fixed in Ubuntu, get the patch uploaded.
<nigelbabu> An example of such a fix is a poppler bug that was fixed for lucid.  Upstream accepted the patch a day after final freeze, but I talked to desktop team and got the fix for lucid.
<nigelbabu> If upstream requests patch rework, add the patch-needswork tag, and indicate how to find the upstream feedback on the patch in the bug report. Ask the patch submitter whether they are willing to work with upstream to resolve outstanding issues.
<nigelbabu> pretty much straightforward step this one
<nigelbabu> If upstream rejects the patch, remove patch-forward-upstream tag, and add patch-rejected-upstream (or patch-rejected-debian) tag. Copy the reasoning for upstream rejection into the Ubuntu bug. Whether the changes get into Ubuntu in this case depends on the will of Ubuntu developers backing the change.
<nigelbabu> Most of the times these changes may not make it into Ubuntu but some of them do make it ;)
<nigelbabu> If upstream ignores the patch for a moderate amount of time, add the patch-forwarded-debian tag and forward to Debian (Handle feedback from Debian similar to handling upstream feedback )
<nigelbabu> upstream not responding is a situation that arises a lot of times, this step may alleviate the wait for some time.
<nigelbabu> And the final step is If the patch is unnecessary or addresses something that does not need to be fixed, add tag patch-rejected, give reason in the comments, and if required close the bug to Won't Fix.
<nigelbabu> So, thats the entire review workflow, its a bit playing with tags, because LP needs a little bit more work into handling each patch.
<nigelbabu> Any questions on this?
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 5]
<nigelbabu> I seemed to have messed up my slide numbers when I listed them earlier ;)
<nigelbabu> How to Join?
<nigelbabu> Does this sound exciting enough?  Want to help us out?
<nigelbabu> To join the Reviewers Team you need to:
<nigelbabu> 1. Sign the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.
<nigelbabu> 2. Be part of Bug Squad.
<nigelbabu> 3. Have knowledge of Ubuntu/Debian packaging.
<nigelbabu> All the 3 are very critical, you need to know how to deal with upstream trackers and also generate debdiffs.
<nigelbabu> You don't need to be an expert though, we're all around and willing to help
<nigelbabu> All you need to do is ping one of the team members
<nigelbabu> The current team members are the folks who are members of https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-reviewers
<nigelbabu> If you have installed the launchpad greasemonkey scripts, the reviewers show up with a small bandage icon
<ClassBot> A-R-R asked: I do want to help but I still need to learn Ubuntu/Debian packaging procedures. Where should I start learning from? Any recommended sources?
<nigelbabu> A-R-R: Excellent question, the best place is to look at the packaging guide in the MOTU documentation.
<nigelbabu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
<nigelbabu> If you feel you're ready for being a team member, you can apply for membership in the launchpad team.
<nigelbabu> As with any Ubuntu development team, you are expected to already work as part of the team before you apply for membership.
<nigelbabu> Most of the work can be done without being a member, there is no blocker to do review if you are not a team member.
<nigelbabu> When you apply, be prepared to prove the review work that you've already done or have a current member vouch for your work.
<nigelbabu> Alternatively, come hang out on #ubuntu-reviews and do stuff until someone gets annoyed and bugs an admin to add you. ;)
<nigelbabu> Earlier in the yofel earned his membership that way :D
<nigelbabu> *Earlier in the day
<nigelbabu> Looks like I was kinda fast with the session, so I have plenty of time for questions :)
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 5]
<nigelbabu> [SLIDE 6]
<nigelbabu> Patch Day (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PatchDay) is now going on where we're mobilizing people to help review patches on May 5 in all time zones (adding to a total of 49 hours!).
<nigelbabu> We started at 1000 UTC today and we've covered close to 30 bugs by now!
<nigelbabu> The really big attraction of Patch Day is there will always be a review lead on the channel whom you can ask help and guidance.
<nigelbabu> The channel is #ubuntu-reviews btw
<nigelbabu> Feel free to participate and help out!
<nigelbabu> Patch Day runs till May 6 1000 UTC
<nigelbabu> So, any questions, please ask away
<nigelbabu> I have 30 minutes to take questions.  I expected lots of them and kept time, don't disappoint me.
<nigelbabu> < vocx> About which kind of software are most patches?
<nigelbabu> Most of the time, its desktop applications that gets a lot of patches
<nigelbabu> The bugs that people find annoying and really want eliminated, we have one or two people annoyed enough to look at the code and find a fix :)
<ClassBot> A-R-R asked: What exactly is meant by 'upstream'?
<nigelbabu> Most of the time, Ubuntu doesn't develop all the applications.  We use other applications to make a product called Ubuntu.
<nigelbabu> Upstream is the original developer of the applications we use.
<nigelbabu> For example, the gnome desktop environment has an upstream in the gnome project, that is where the original developers coordinate
<nigelbabu> Patch review is done of all patches attached to bugs in Launchpad, but reviewers need to work on all upstream trackers
<nigelbabu> It may the gnome bugzilla, the debian bts, the kde bugzilla, and many others
<nigelbabu>  MononcQc> is the patch and review team usually composed of the same programmers who implement new features or applications?
<nigelbabu> There may be an overlap, but its not intentional.
<nigelbabu> We have a lot of very versatile contributors who're everywhere (like maco, I keep running into her)
<nigelbabu> So, you may see the same people in many teams :)
<nigelbabu> if you could prepond your questions with 'QUESTION:
<nigelbabu> that would be really great, it saves me the trouble of copy pasting
<maco> Just wanted to point out that patch reviewers don't have to be very good programmers (or in some cases, programmers at all), so there should be people who are reviewers but are not writing new features
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<maco> <oppl> why would one submit a patch to launchpad and not submit a patch directly upstream?
<nigelbabu> If you can report it upstream, please do report it upstream.
<nigelbabu> Only, most people tend to submit(err.. not report) patches in Ubuntu bug tracker (launchpad)
<nigelbabu> Now, if the package is something that has someone caring abuot, things go fine
<nigelbabu> if its an orphan package, it ends up being on launchpad too long and we get a big backlog
<nigelbabu> and as maco reminds me, its easier to just report it in lunachpad and finding out the particular bug tracker and reporting it there.
<nigelbabu> report it in lunachpad *than* finding out the particular bug tracker and reporting it there
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<nigelbabu> Also, dholbach will be taking 2 session on Friday about Ubuntu development and how to get involved, so that should help learn how to create debdiff, etc
<nigelbabu> so thats about it folks, thank you for participating :)
<akgraner> Thanks nigelbabu1
<akgraner> Great session!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Adopting a Package and being an upstream contact - Instructors: jcastro, qense || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> qense and jcastro are up next the session will begin in about two minutes...
<akgraner> They will be going over - Adopting a Package and being an upstream contact
<akgraner> so stretch, grab something to drink and we'll get started in just a min or two :-)
<qense> oh my god, they're shooting at the dam!
<akgraner> welcome qense!
<akgraner> you've been introduced the floor is all yours!
<qense> a bit an unorthodox introduction
<akgraner> :-)
<qense> apologises, I'm a bit from my apropos, it just looked like someone starting shooting in the crowd at the NAtional Monument in Amsterdam, live on television
<qense> Seems alrgith now, lets start
<qense> Hello everyone, I'm Sense Hofstede -- https://launchpad.net/~qense -- and this session will be all about 'adopting a package and being an upstream contact', or Adopt-a-Package and Adopt-an-Upstream.
<qense> Unfortunately Jorge Castro (jcastro) is too busy to attend this session so I'll be doing this alone.
<qense> Lets first explain to you what the project actually is.
<qense> There are different ways of contributing to a distribution. For example, you could cherry-pick the tasks you'd like to work on, or you could choose to focus on a specific subset of the available tasks.
<qense> Everyone has a different approach that works best for her or him. However, you do work more efficiently and effectively when you focus on a clearly bounded area.
<qense> This is what Adopt-an-Upstream and Adopt-a-Package are: you focus on a project/application you like and make sure it rocks in Ubuntu!
<qense> Smaller applications can be adopted by a single person, but if the project's large or when it gets a lot of bug reports it quickly becomes too much to do on your own. In that case you should consider teaming up with a group of like-minded people and adopt as a group.
<qense> Now, it is quite some work to focus on all facets of a project's existence in Ubuntu -- I'd say you're no longer focusing then -- so you split the work up in different tasks.
<qense> When you're sure you want to adopt something and have decided what that something would be then it's time to start thinking which part of the work you want to adopt.
<qense> Because adoption of an upstream encompasses the following points:
<qense> Communication
<qense> both communicating Ubuntu schedules and announcements of importance to the upstream project to the upstream project, and communicating the project's schedules and announcement to the developers in Ubuntu that should know about it.
<qense> Bug triaging or Adopt-a-Package
<qense> That is: you work on triaging -- processing -- the bugs reported against the adopted project. More on this later.
<qense> Packaging
<qense>  Making sure the latest version of the package is available in Ubuntu, either by merging or syncing it from Debian, or by packaging it yourself.
<qense> Forwarding patches upstream
<qense>  For some bugs there are fixes available that Ubuntu maintains as patches. It's the best for everyone if those patches are also sent upstream so they can be included in the code.
<qense> You've been able to hear more about that in the previous session.
<qense> and finally: Representing the project in Ubuntu and Ubuntu upstream
<qense>  This means being the contact person of that project in Ubuntu and the Ubuntu contact person upstream.
<qense> That sure are many things to do!
<qense> Lets talk a bit more about how we could do that,
<qense> It can happen that someone else is already working on one or more of the tasks I mentioned.
<qense> If someone or a group of people have already adopted a project then you should try to cooperate with them.
<qense> Some people have formed a team for adopting a project.
<qense> An example of this is the MozillaTeam: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam
<qense> Although that team was created before Adopt-an-Upstream was started it is still a very good example for people that actually want to adopt a package.
<qense> Any questions so far?
<qense> OK, lets take a closer look at connecting with the upstream project.
<qense> Because that's the most important thing of it all and that's what Adopt-an-UPSTREAM is actually about.
<qense> First of all, please keep in mind that the upstreams are very important to Ubuntu -- without them we'd barely have anything in the repositories and nothing to run what we would have -- so please try treat them respectfully.
<qense> Although I'm sure most of you will. :)
<qense> There are a few actions you can take to make sure you don't miss anything you need to know.
<qense> First of all, if you're often on IRC, it is strongly advised to join the project's channel as well; this makes it easier for the upstream developers to contact you when they need to ask you something and allows you to quickly ask them your questions.
<qense> It's also a good idea to subscribe to the project's mailing list, or -- when there are multiple -- to the list that you'll most likely find the discussions on you want to follow.
<qense> Some projects also have mailing lists that are only used for sending release announcements, often with the release notes.
<qense> That is a valuable source of information and something you should pass on to the affected Ubuntu developers if it is interesting for Ubuntu.
<ClassBot> drubin asked: Do you have to be an upstream dev to be apart of this? Also is there a formal process to be included on bugs related to that package?
<qense> drubin: You don't have to be an upstream developer in order to contribute. Experience from upstream is valuable, but it's certainly not required. It is helpful, though, if you have some experience with the specific area you're adopting.
<qense> drubin: If you want to be subscribed to all bugs of a certain package you can go to the bug overview page of that package and subscribe there.
<qense> Say, e.g., you want to get mail for all bugs reported against Nautilus on Launchpad you go to <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus>. You see a link at the left "Subscribe to bug mail". Press that and you'll get mail fora ll bug reports.
<qense> Be careful though, some packages get a lot of mail and you don't want your inbox overflowing with bug mail.
<qense> For upstream bug trackers it differs per tracker.
<qense> Lets continue.
<qense> If the upstream project chooses to make a radical change you should warn Ubuntu on time.
<qense> Example given: during the Ubuntu Developer Summit a collaborative text editor called 'Gobby' is used. A release or two ago, before the UDS for Ubuntu 10.04 Lucid Lynx, a new version was released which changed the protocol.
<qense> In order to make sure that everyone, even those that don't use the latest release of Ubuntu, can participate Ubuntu decided to stick to the old protocol.
<qense> The new release of Gobby was packaged separately and the previous Gobby release was left in the repositories so it could be used during the UDS.
<qense> This is something upstream adopters could help with.
<qense> On the other hand, of course, when large changes are made in Ubuntu -- like the Application Indicator that were added to Ubuntu Lucid -- it is the task of the adopter to notify upstream and cooperate with them in adding support for it to the project.
<qense> This could be done by helping an upstream developers by pointing her or him to the right documentation, wiki pages, mailing lists and IRC channels, but also by helping an Ubuntu contributor with writing a patch and making sure that patch gets sent upstream.
<qense> You're really the bridge between two communities.
<qense> What's also an important task of making sure no data valuable to the upstream project remains locked away in Ubuntu is forwarding bugs upstream.
<qense> This brings us to our next stop: Adopt-a-Package.
<qense> But first, if you have a question, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION:.
<qense> I heard someone in the -chat channel asking whether he could still help when the package was already being looked after by someone else. That's no problem, you're help is always appreciated. Just contact the people working on it.
<qense> drub asked: QUESTION: What is the best process to go through when you find a issue between ubuntu and upstream project?
<qense> drubin
<qense> It depends on the issue. What kind of issue do you mean, drubin?
<qense> <drubin> qense: lets take a compatiblity issue. I know for simply new versions you would file a merge request
<qense> It's hard to really give an answer to this unspecific question, but a general answer would be: communication.
<qense> Always communicate, talk with upstream, talk with Ubuntu-people and try to find solutions.
<qense> Keep talking.
<qense> Now, lets get on with Adopt-a-Package.
<qense> This is more separate from Adopt-an-Upstream, but it could perfectly be a part of an Adoption.
<qense> General information about Adopt-an-Upstream page can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Adopt
<qense> However, Adopt-a-Package has a wiki page of its own, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/AdoptPackage
<qense> As you can see on that page there are already quite a few packages adopted by bug triagers that aren't adopted 'in general'.
<qense> Because Adopt-a-Package is about looking after bugs.
<qense> The wiki pages are a good place to look for ideas when you want to adopt something and it is something you should look at so you won't do duplicate work.
<qense> When dealing with projects that have many bugs reported against them on Launchpad it's often wise to divide the tasks and let one go through the newly reported bugs, whereas the other is responsible for forwarding bugs upstream.
<qense> To give people an idea how they could organise their 'adoption team' I've created a wiki page that gives a suggestion for a team structure.
<qense> You can find it at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/AdoptionTeam>.
<qense> As you can see the bugs are divided themselves in different tasks because the larger packages have so many bug reports that you shouldn't only divide the different tasks like packaging and bug triaging, but also the bug triaging itself.
<qense> It's undoable to triage all the bugs by yourselves.
<qense> OK, now I would like to know whom of you have already adopted a package or an upstream, who wants to adopt a package or an upstream or if you have any questions.
<qense> Please tell!
<qense> vocx says it's too much work.
<qense> Well, it sure is a lot of work if you do everything on your own.
<qense> That's why you should form a group and work together!
<qense> <vocx> Can I just baby-sit it until it's 16?
<qense> vocx: Of course you don't have to do all the work at once. Even if you do just a little bit we're already very thankful.
<qense> Every single contribution is welcome.
<qense> <charlie-tca> I have adopted a couple of packages
<qense> <charlie-tca> I also work with xfce, abiword, and gnumeric upstreams
<qense> Good to hear you're working with the upstreams, that's very important.
<qense> That is a part of Adopt-an-Upstream: making sure Ubuntu goes well with upstreams.
<qense> Part of this could be writing documentation or wiki pages containing information for upstreams about Ubuntu or for Ubuntu about upstreams.
<qense> A good example of such a thing is the Banshee Workspace: <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Banshee>
<qense> Please take a look at it.
<qense> At the wiki-page you can see a lot of links.
<qense> When you're familiar with a project you often know where you can find what you need. But if you're new then such an overview page can help you a lot with finding what you need.
<qense> vocx asked: "What if upstream doesn't respond? I mean, come on, upstream! I made two patches using gtksourceview and gtksourceview2 and you are still using TexTView, what gives? Wake up."
<qense> You can only do so much.
<qense> You cannot force projects to accept your work, but you can make it as easy as possible for them to accept your work.
<qense> This means: following their style guidelines, their freezes and their patch-submitting process.
<qense> Things like the Banshee workspace I mentioned earlier can help a lot with this because they link to the vital information you need in order to do this.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What do you think about Ubuntu basically forking Gnome 2,  because of all  these non upstream edits, that are being introduced? Me menu, and so on.
<qense> sebsebseb: I, personally, feel that it is not necessary bad to do this. Projects are entities of their own and they have their own ways and methods for changing things. If you're an outsider with great ideas -- Canonical wants to reform the Linux desktop but it does not consist of die-hard GNOME community members -- it is hard to get listened to. This, of course, is not necessarily a bad thing. However, if you want to still change the desktop
<qense> you then better change it yourself.
<qense> The fact that it diverges from upstream is not necessarily bad because you can later, if upstream likes it, submit the work upstream.
<qense> If your work is better than the work of upstream it might drive them to improve.
<qense> If your work is worse then you'll change back soon enough.
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: must translations be forked?
<qense> bruce89: Preferably not. You want to get advantage of the wonderful translation work that's done upstream and you want them to profit from their work.
<qense> A note to those of you interested in working on the bugs of a certain application:
<qense> If you have no prior experience with triaging (do you all know what triaging means?) please don't rush in right away and adopt OpenOffice. Instead consider asking for a mentor -- <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors> -- and if you want to adopt something, start with a small package.
<qense> sebsebseb: However, translations are mostly dealt with by the translation teams themselves and their workflow for working with upstream differs per translation team. If you are interested in helping out with translating, please consider joining the translators of your langauge.
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<qense> I have run out of words. If you have a question, please ask and I'll be glad to help out. After this session you could also try on IRC in #ubuntu-bugs or in #ubuntu-devel. Or, if you really feel like, you can always mail me at qense AT ubuntu DOT com
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: in the case Ubuntu were to basically fork GNOME 2.xx, who would benefit more: GNOME, Ubuntu or the users?
<qense> bruce89: I hope the user, because that's who it's all about in the end, isn't it?
<qense> Now we have some time left I do want to focus your attention on our most important upstream: Debian.
<qense> It might not always be the most visible one, but we owe Debian a lot.
<qense> A lot of our packages are taken from Debian and we wouldn't be able to offer such a great distribution without the great work of the Debian developers.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<qense> If you want to do something back for them you could focus on forwarding patches or bugs to Debian or help Debian out with packaging.
<qense> Because: if you help Debian you help Ubuntu.
<akgraner> Thanks qense for a great session!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Desktop Q+A - Instructors: seb128, didrocks, rickspencer3 || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> Up next is the Desktop Q & A
<rickspencer3> Hi!
<akgraner> Rick you all can take it away!
<rickspencer3> thanks akgraner
<rickspencer3> I'm in Brussels and sitting with seb128 and didrocks atm
<rickspencer3> so I guess this a QA session, where folks get to ask questions and we answer
<rickspencer3> right
<rickspencer3> ?
<rickspencer3> so let's rock
<rickspencer3> ask away
<ClassBot> mbudde asked: What are you thoughts on windicators?
<rickspencer3> hmmm
<rickspencer3> well, I just learned about this idea yesterday
<rickspencer3> but so far, I think it's a cool idea
<rickspencer3> we'll have to get the Client Side Decorations work landed and fixed up right quick early in the cycle to ensure that windicators are solid
<rickspencer3> I'd prefer a less whimsical name ;)
<ClassBot> akgraner asked: I love the desktop on 10.04 are there many plans to change it in 10.10? and if so what can we expect?
<rickspencer3> ewe, nice question
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Desktop Q+A - Instructors: seb128, didrocks_, rickspencer3 || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rickspencer3> since UDS is coming next week, we've been thinking a lot about this, of course
<rickspencer3> so there is some house keeping regarding gnome
<rickspencer3> like catching up with some of the latest stuff that we didn't get, like evolution
<rickspencer3> I'd like to take another look at the experience with Pictures, and see if we can simplify that
<rickspencer3> and of course, continue the work on indicators
<rickspencer3> and I'd like to see a lot of folks write some cool new apps too
<ClassBot> shazzner asked: Usability is still a problem for Linux on the desktop how can the community work to improve this, or must we rely on Canonical?
<rickspencer3> deep question
<rickspencer3> so usability is a problem generally, not just on Linux, though this does not alter your central point
<rickspencer3> in terms of "relying on Canonical" I'm not sure what to say there
<rickspencer3> I would think that folks would want their own apps to be easy to use, of course
<rickspencer3> I would invite contributions to UDS planning that are related to usability
<rickspencer3> I would love to see some community efforts around collecting real usability data
<rickspencer3> not sure what else to say there
<rickspencer3> sorry for the bad answer :/
<ClassBot> shazzner asked: to clarify are most of the usability improvements going to be coming from Canonical or is there a path for the community to improve it?
<rickspencer3> well, I guess it means what you mean by "community" here
<rickspencer3> I would think that the community of people who write applications that run on the desktop have a huge role to play
<rickspencer3> I would think that the community of folks who contribute to the ayatana discussion feel those discussions in and of themselves are contributions
<rickspencer3> of course feedback on blueprints and on development versions are contributions
<rickspencer3> things like the new manual project are great contributions
<rickspencer3> and then folks come up with some really innovative things that make things easier
<rickspencer3> like Ground Control, etc...
<ClassBot> akgraner asked: I recently read on the ayatana mailing list that they system tray was going away in 11.04 - are you move the desktop in the direction of gnome shell?
<rickspencer3> by system tray, I guess this is the "notification area"?
<rickspencer3> so this is not going away, so much as being replaced but what we now call "indicators"
<rickspencer3> which are essentially strictly designed menus that provide similar functionality to indicators in a consistent manner
<rickspencer3> I guess the fact that gnome-shell is interested in the same or similar concepts is good convergent validity that we are on a good path
<ClassBot> x-Na asked: Remote desktop is a nice feature, but at it's current state it's not working if there are more than one user, to clarify: if another user logs in, you can't connect to your remote desktop.
<rickspencer3> is there a question there? I'd answer if you can ask a question
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: As an experienced Ubuntu user since the second release in 2005, with Ubuntu also not being my first distro, I have a mixture of positive and negative thoughts, when it comes to the non upstream Gnome editing that started happening with 9.04.   You guys seem to be the developers of Ubuntu, and so do you really think changing Gnome 2 a lot, whilst sort of forking it, is a good thing? Especially with Gnome 3 is just round the
<rickspencer3> ah
<rickspencer3> so you are asking about our relationship with upstream gnome?
<rickspencer3> well, I still consider Ubuntu to be a gnome-based distro
<rickspencer3> and I don't think there is really a "fork" at all
<rickspencer3> but yes, we do focus on the user experience in Ubuntu, and hope that if upstream finds our work useful, they will adopt it as appropriate
<akgraner> rickspencer3, here is the end of his question - corner, which I expect will also get edited by Ubuntu developers, but I hope only in a properly good way.
<rickspencer3> well, it's free software
<rickspencer3> so I guess there is no unproper way
<rickspencer3> but I think the question is about maintaining the vitality of gnome?
<rickspencer3> suffice to say, we have a good relationship with gnome foundation, and contribute to gnome in many ways
<rickspencer3> so I think that Ubuntu spreads gnome, and that's good for gnome
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: what is the actual difference between GtkStatusIcon and libindicate?
<rickspencer3> ok
<rickspencer3> so on a technical level, I can't really list the details here
<rickspencer3> but for users, there are significant differences
<rickspencer3> a status icon is just an icon that can have menus, click behaviors, whatever you want
<rickspencer3> or nothing it can just be an icon
<rickspencer3> they also each live in their own individual universe
<rickspencer3> in the sense that they don't share any navigation, etc...
<rickspencer3> so Indicators are different
<rickspencer3> they are:
<rickspencer3> 1. *only* menus
<rickspencer3> 2. never have right click menus
<rickspencer3> 3. never have "on click" behaviors
<rickspencer3> in this way, they all work in a very consistent manner, there are no unexpected behaviors
<rickspencer3> also ...
<rickspencer3> 4. they share a navigation structure like they are all in one menu
<rickspencer3> so in this way you can easily navigate them with the keyboard and such
<rickspencer3> there are some differences in how they are implemented as well, for developers they look a little different
<ClassBot> x-Na asked: Any plans to improve Remote Desktop?
<rickspencer3> not explicitly atm
<rickspencer3> if this is important to you, you should see if you can register a blueprint and get some folks together to address your goals there
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: do you think upstream complaints about copyright assignment are reasonable?
<rickspencer3> oooh
<rickspencer3> a little hard ball
<rickspencer3> ;)
<rickspencer3> j/k
<rickspencer3> so, not sure what these "upstream complaints" are specifically
<rickspencer3> however, I think that the gnome policy regarding copyright assignment works ok with Canonical
<rickspencer3> so, I think everyone who has expressed an opinion has done so with only good intentions, so of course, they are reasonable
<rickspencer3> but I think the resolution is fine
<rickspencer3> note that copyright assignment policies are not uncommon for companies to have
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: couldn't API be added to GTK+ to make indicators instead of having a seperate library?
<rickspencer3> well .. I am not an expert here
<rickspencer3> but after we have a stable API and the issues are shaked out, I would expect that if upstream thought indicators were useful
<rickspencer3> we would certainly work with the GTK+ folks to put them there if that's what they wanted
<rickspencer3> but once are in GTK+ developers have a right to expect them to stay consistent for a long time
<rickspencer3> they are not ready for that yet
<ClassBot> bruce89 asked: Do you support the work on symbolic icons?
<rickspencer3> If I knew what you referring to I would answer :/
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: There are or were some remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop. Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop as a resul it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have as the default desktop in 10.10, but that it should be optioanl from the repos?
<rickspencer3> will be talking about Gnome 3 at UDS
<rickspencer3> we always discuss what to adopt from latest gnome in the next Ubuntu
<rickspencer3> gnome 3 includes many many things, but I suspect you are referring more specifically to gnome-shell
<rickspencer3> if so, I can say that we will continue to deliver gnome-shell to users in Universe, as we have since early in 9.10
<rickspencer3> but I don't expect it to be ready for any distro to ship be default once month after their current target release date
<rickspencer3> but that's just my opinion, we will discuss next week, I suspect
<ClassBot> shazzner asked: I really like Quickly as a rapid development app do you see this as a way for new developers to get into development for ubuntu?
<rickspencer3> YES!
<rickspencer3> and also
<rickspencer3> yes yes yes yes
<didrocks_> yes too ? ;)
<rickspencer3> not just Ubuntu, but free software in general
<rickspencer3> I hope that it provide a "toe hold" after which people can see how incredibly rewarding writing FLOSS apps are
<rickspencer3> and then maybe branch out based on their interests
<rickspencer3> I also kind of always picutred Quickly being adopted by other distros or upstream if it ever becomes so useful
<rickspencer3> ALSO
<rickspencer3> I think experienced developers should find it useful
<rickspencer3> just because you are experienced doesn't mean that you want packaging to be hard ;)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Uh typeo's let's edit that: There are or were some  remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop.  Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and so as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop in the 10.10 release, but that it will be optional from the repo's?
<rickspencer3> ok, so the question was about 11.04, sorry I didn't grock that
<rickspencer3> so for 11.04, I can honestly, I don;t know
<rickspencer3> it's a big change, we'll have to see what is the right thing at the time
<rickspencer3> sorry to not be definitive, but I just can't say what will be the right thing then
<ClassBot> aquarius asked: now that we have video editing and so on, are there any areas that you think should be covered by applications in the default Ubuntu install set but aren't because we don't have a good app in those areas yet?
<rickspencer3> tbh, I don't have that kind of imagination
<rickspencer3> well, I think that developers tools is an area to which we need to channel a lot of innovation
<rickspencer3> I think we should work together to create a really tight developer story, end to end
<rickspencer3> but I'm not sure that would be a default type thing
<rickspencer3> I guess, I don't think Canonical is going to write the next killer app
<rickspencer3> but I think the Ubuntu community may well create the tools that allow some creative person to do so
<ClassBot> akgraner asked: rickspencer3 in the time you have been working on the desktop team  - what would you or your team say is the most interesting/best feature on the Ubuntu Desktop compared to other distributions.
<rickspencer3> well, 9.04 was the first release for which I was there for the whole thing, end to end
<rickspencer3> since then, we've added all the sweet stuff that the Dx team contributed
<rickspencer3> notify-osd, indicators, etc...
<rickspencer3> there's the stuff the OLS team contributed, like file-sync, and desktop-couch, and of course the music store
<rickspencer3> and then there are the sweet apps that community members wrote, like Gwibber
<rickspencer3> so these are "additive" things, that some distros have adopted, and some haven't
<rickspencer3> however, I think it's what Ubuntu *doesn't* do as much as what Ubuntu does do that makes it special
<rickspencer3> we don't deliver duplicate apps
<rickspencer3> we don't make it confusing to install with millions of options, etc...
<rickspencer3> holding back apps that are not appropriate for typical daily usage
<rickspencer3> stuff like this
<rickspencer3> out of all these new things, I think the sleeper hit, is desktop-couch
<rickspencer3> as an app developer, this is going to be the most useful thing
<rickspencer3> handling persistence for application developers in a reliable consistent manner I suspect will convert into lots of applications that end users will appreciate
<rickspencer3> because of the speedy devleopment time, syncing, and other desktop-couchy features
<rickspencer3> so, there are no more questions in queue
<rickspencer3> I'll gladly hang out, but if anyone has follow up questions
<rickspencer3> or if I didn't really answer anyone, feel free to ask again
<ClassBot> shazzner asked: how would one go about contributing to Quickly-widgets?
<rickspencer3> you just made my night
<rickspencer3> so this is pretty informal now
<rickspencer3> if you have code to contribute, just propose a merge or whatever, and we'll talk
<rickspencer3> I would love to see more widgets
<rickspencer3> if you have feature requests, widgets you'd like to see, you can log a bug or just find me on freenode
<rickspencer3> the project on launchpad is called quidgets
<rickspencer3> http://launchpad.net.quidgets
<rickspencer3> over the weekend a wrote a webcam quidget, and a GoogleMap quidget!
<ClassBot> akgraner asked: did you keep the buttons on the left or move them back to the the right?
<rickspencer3> lo
<rickspencer3> l
<rickspencer3> totally kept them on the left
<rickspencer3> I think they work totally fine there, and am still a bit mystified by the whole reaction to the move
<rickspencer3> I have a non-techy friend who needed a computer, so I set up an old netbook for her
<rickspencer3> and when she was poking around at UNE, she didn't even mention the buttons
<rickspencer3> as a windows user, she was not bothered in the list
<rickspencer3> (though there were some other things that were a bit of a bother for her)
<ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: I asked yesterday in the Gwibber session, but is there a Quickly widget for posting through Gwibber?
<rickspencer3> no, but there is a widget in Gwibber for this
<rickspencer3> there is some code in photobomb that shows how to do this
<rickspencer3> it's pretty easy
<rickspencer3> hold on
<rickspencer3> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/+junk/photobomb
<rickspencer3> there's the branch, let me know if you can't find the code, I'll pull it out for yo
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Some people want Chromium to be the default browser in Ubuntu.  Since I am rather  loyal to Firefox and it's a good browser,  I hope this does not happen any time soon. (Plus on the top right in Chromium/Chrome next to the URL bar, how the menu is done and such, that really does remind me of the horrible Internet Explorer 7 and Internet Explorer 8  browsers.)  I assume I am correct to believe that Firefox will remain the
<akgraner> default browser in the desktop version for many releases to  come?  However maybe the netbook version will use Chromium instead not that far from now, since the ARM version or whatever  does at the moment, since apparently it's more light weight than Firefox.
<rickspencer3> you are not right to assume this
<rickspencer3> !
<rickspencer3> please look at the blueprints and comment
<rickspencer3> we basically plan to facilitate a community decision about the default browser, and go with that
<rickspencer3> however, whatever we choose, you will always be free to use the browser that you prefer
<rickspencer3> it's just a matter of defaults
<rickspencer3> didrocks_ is looking for the links to the right blueprints
<rickspencer3> he'll paste them in in a moment
<ClassBot> mbudde asked: Is Quidgets stable? Are you planning to backport quidgets to older releases?
<rickspencer3> no and no
<rickspencer3> not stable because they are early and folks who use them make lots of feature requests
<rickspencer3> they are also not table because I am a sucky developer ;)
<rickspencer3> not planning to backport just because I have a very long list of todo items, but I would be happy to see the code go to previous releases, other distros, etc...
<rickspencer3> basically, if someone finds it useful, I hope they feel free to make what they can of the code
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: If to many of the default apps and such are removed from Ubuntu, then basically in a way the proper Ubuntu expereince has been removed?
<rickspencer3> hmmm
<rickspencer3> well, Ubuntu is supposed to deliver the best that the open source eco-system has to offer
<rickspencer3> so change is a constant in Ubuntu
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<rickspencer3> I hope that as the FLOSS software in general improves
<rickspencer3> that Ubuntu will improve along with it
<rickspencer3> but that will require some change, yes
<rickspencer3> I hope that answers the question
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I meant the users doing it, not the version of the distro
<rickspencer3> so didn't answer the question ;)
<rickspencer3> yeah, basically if a typical users is replacing a default application, that application was probably not a great choice as the default
<rickspencer3> but our goal is to deliver a system that is useful and usable with the defaults
<rickspencer3> deliverable on a cheap CDR image
<rickspencer3> however, users must be free to modify those defaults as works for them
<rickspencer3> after all, deliver Free software is our primary motivator that gets us up in the morning
<didrocks_> (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-une-app-selection should be it for previous discussion about UNE default app, inputs are more than welcome :))
<ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: I am running the netbook version, is there a way I can add applications to my favorites if it's not in the panel on the left?
<rickspencer3> I run UNE on my netbook too
<rickspencer3> I love it
<rickspencer3> to do add to your favorites, when you find a favorite, right click on it, and you can add it to favorites from there
<rickspencer3> you can remove from favorites in a similar manner
<rickspencer3> long live UNE!
<didrocks_> \o/
<rickspencer3> did that answer the question?
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Personally it didn't bother me much since I could just move the buttons back to the right with Gconf editor or use another theme.  However why were the buttons moved to the left in 10.04, before this feature on the right 10.10 is meant to have, has even been created?
<rickspencer3> I don't think they were totally related
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<rickspencer3> I think, at the end of the day, our sabdfl just thought they were better on the left
<rickspencer3> and after all, he's the sabdfl
<rickspencer3> I know he thought moving them would open up room for innovation, but I don't know when he started to think of the windicator idea
<rickspencer3> it was a surprise to me as well
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What wasn't totally related?  Theme and button placement?
<rickspencer3> maybe I misunderstood
<rickspencer3> I thought you were referring to indicators
<rickspencer3> sorry
<ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: In the netbook version is there a way to adjust the size of the icons?
<rickspencer3> not that I know of
<rickspencer3> not without hacking the source, anyway ;)
<rickspencer3> (which of course you are free to do if so motivated)
<rickspencer3> so only two minutes left
<rickspencer3> before I check for more questions, I should let folks here know that I try to be very accessible
<rickspencer3> I usually take questions from folks who ping me on IRC
<rickspencer3> and like to talk to users in that kind of setting
<rickspencer3> so feel free!
<ClassBot> aquarius asked: machines increasingly don't have CD drives. What's the next way to distribute Ubuntu as easily as ShipIt
<rickspencer3> easy
<rickspencer3> preinstalled by OEMs!
<rickspencer3> ftw!
<rickspencer3> shoot's he scores, freedom for everyone
<rickspencer3> ;)
<rickspencer3> though I suppose usb keys will still be useful
<akgraner> Rick thanks for a great session
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<rickspencer3> thank you akgraner
<rickspencer3> good night from Brussels
<akgraner> And that concludes Day 2 of Open Week
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-05
<anvo> My computer has an Intel graphics card, so is it possible to permanently exclude software updates, nvidia's in this case...?
<bbordwell> anvo, #ubuntu for support
<anvo> OK
<kamusin> joaopinto, #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<kamusin> oops, mistake
<bilalakhtar> people, will AskMark take place on this channel?
<rww> bilalakhtar: yes
<bilalakhtar> rww: thanks for the info
<WoX_> [ZeTa_]
<WoX_> â¢â¢â¢ IAL no actualizada, lÃ­mite de usuarios sobrepasado. ( > 49 )
<WoX_> a eso me refiero
<ZeTa_> Â¬Â¬
<WoX_> jsjsjss
<WoX_> !
<WoX_> ciao!!
<WoX_> parlamo e tarde
<ZeTa_> va bene
<killos> WoX, a que hora comienza el Q+A?
<WoX_> killos no tengo ni la mas minima idea... Preguntale a ZeTa_
<WoX_> [wcs] no tengo ni la mas minima idea... Preguntale a ZeTa_
<ZeTa_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<ZeTa_> there is all the information
<ZeTa_> remember, the topics on the morning, are in english
<wcs> I know n_n, I just look somebody talking in spanish
<ZeTa_> ahahahah
<ZeTa_> were're u from?
<jcastro> 7 minute warning
<Ian_Corne> It's pretty quiet in here :)
<Ihmepupu> it is, after all, a classroom
<cjohnston> it also hasnt started
<wcs> is just becouse we are expecting here
<wcs> hehe
<bilalakhtar> has askmark started?
<bilalakhtar> one by one, people will join this channel
<sbc> bilalakhtar: Think it starts in 5 min
<bilalakhtar> sbc: I also think so
<om26er> 4min ;)
<Resno> bilalakhtar: i dont even know why im here LOL
<bilalakhtar> sabdfl is not on freenode (yet)
<cjohnston> he will be
<bilalakhtar> Resno: On this channel, you could ask ANY question you wish, to sabdfl
<bilalakhtar> !sabdfl | Resno
<ubottu> Resno: Mark "sabdfl" Shuttleworth is our favourite cosmonaut, the founder of Canonical and the primary driver behind Ubuntu. You can find pieces of his thinking at http://www.markshuttleworth.com
<rww> To be more precise, on #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;P
<Resno> oh....
<jcastro> get your questions ready
<vineeth> finally joined the room :)
<jcastro> so that when we start you can paste them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Sovo> when we start ?
<bilalakhtar> Will questions be asked on this channel or #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<vineeth> Ugh, how do i disable all these <username> has joined messages?
<vineeth> on xchat :|
<jcastro> vineeth, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn
<ongolaBoy> Sovo: in one minute
<bilalakhtar> jcastro: Will questions be asked on this channel or #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<vineeth> thank you :)
<qense> People, please chat only in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please remind to prefix your questions with QUESTION and if you want to get rid of part/join messages, use your lright mouse button
<rww> bilalakhtar: in -chat
<arvind_khadri> vineeth, right click on channel and hide join/part messages
<vineeth> yeah got it, thanks man
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructor: sabdfl || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bilalakhtar> arvind_khadri: Thanks
<jcastro> Ok thanks everyone for joining
<jcastro> While we wait a sec for mark here's how this works
<jcastro> you're going to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> and preface them with QUESTION:
<jcastro> like so
<jcastro> QUESTION: What is 2+2
<jcastro> then akgraner and I will paste them in here
<jcastro> 2 things
<jcastro> please don't ask questions that are solved by an easy google
<jcastro> like "When does Maverick come out"
<jcastro> and 2) if we miss your question please be patient and ask it again
<jcastro> Mark isn't here yet so please stand by for a few minutes.
<sabdfl> hello everybody!
<jcastro> alright!
<jcastro> please introduce yourself and I'll start with the first question!
<sabdfl> i'm mark shuttleworth, and delighted to be here
<sabdfl> fire away
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will Gnome Shell be in default Maverick? If so, what will happen with Gnome Shell and Compiz? Will Compiz still work by default? If not, will there be an easy way to use Compiz?
<sabdfl> the current release schedule puts Gnome Shell out of bounds for Maverick, but it will be packaged and available from universe
<sabdfl> we'd encourage people to try it, and it would be great if someone put together a daily build PPA so folks who are very interested could track development and help fix bugs
<sabdfl> it's very interesting work, and there are important new technologies, and lots of things to consider
<sabdfl> the more folks use it and think about it, the better our decisions will be for 11.04
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> there is actually a daily ppa, someone please paste the url in -chat to share with others and we'll get it in the notes!
<akgraner> <Xazax> QUESTION: Have you see this on brainstorm: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23490 (Solution 3, mockup) ? This would be a great feature, to select the software collection of ubuntu. And it would be extremely user friendly to have the chance to install an operating system wich support codecs, playing back dvd-s out of the box. I know it would break the current meta package system, so it would be a lot of work, but is there any
<akgraner> chance to make it
<sabdfl> looking...
<sabdfl> hmm.... no
<sabdfl> one of the really strong values we have is that two users of ubuntu should, by default, either be having the same experience, or be expert enough to understand why they are not
<sabdfl> which is why we stick to *one* default browser
<sabdfl> and *one* default mail client
<sabdfl> that way, when two people who have out-of-the-box-vanilla ubuntu are talking to one another
<sabdfl> they can say "i can't find my bookmark" and "oh, you find it there"
<sabdfl> they can help each other, just talking about "the browser"
<sabdfl> that has been very useful to help the community grow past experts, into a more consumer audience
<sabdfl> if you are an expert, of course there is software centre, aptitude / synaptic, and PPA's
<sabdfl> there's a whole world out there :-)
<sabdfl> but for the beginning, out of the box experience, we benefit a lot from keeping it tight
<sabdfl> it looks like a lot of work went into the design
<sabdfl> and that's appreciated
<sabdfl> and i wouldn't mind if someone built that and put it in universe
<sabdfl> as a convenient way for people to make those choices
<sabdfl> but we wouldn't take it in the installer, or default install
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any plans for Ubuntu to support Blu-ray movies so users can play them out-of-the-box?
<sabdfl> aieee... i don't think that would be possible without proprietary software at the moment
<sabdfl> i'll find out if anyone is building something like that
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <jbicha> QUESTION: Do you have any comments about the reports that a lot of the Ubuntu rebranding work was done using proprietary design software on OS X?
<sabdfl> it's true!
<sabdfl> some of the artists who worked on it, work on both Mac and Ubuntu, and some of the work was done on Mac (and Windows)
<sabdfl> c'est la vie, i don't think that detracts from the work at all
<sabdfl> of course, the same people are helping to improve the tools on Ubuntu
<sabdfl> and that feedback is useful
<sabdfl> and they get teased about it a lot
<sabdfl> but it doesn't undermine their efforts in my mind - i'm just glad to have such great people working on making it all better
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why are the window controls on the left?
<sabdfl> to align with the future shape of the desktop
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <YaManicKill> QUESTION: You talk about integrating the menubar into the panel in UNR. will this support apps such as firefox that don't use gtk widgets?
<sabdfl> as soon as we can make that work, yes it will
<sabdfl> both FF and OO.o have mechanisms to support that behaviour on Mac OS
<sabdfl> we hope they will hook into the mechanisms we're building to do it on Ubuntu too
<sabdfl> and we'll help that happen
<sabdfl> if you're interested, talk with cody russell, who is bratsche
<sabdfl> on irc
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Canonical is pushing some significant changes in the desktop are with the Ayatana project, such changes will have impact on upstream developers, do you plan to actively support upstream developers performing  the required changes ?
<sabdfl> yes of course!
<sabdfl> jcastro himself has lead one effort like that, with AppIndicators in 10.04 LTS
<sabdfl> for which i am very grateful, as are the designers and other engineers who built it
<sabdfl> thanks jorge :-)
<sabdfl> in putting together that program, we did a couple of things:
<jcastro> :)
<sabdfl>  - we assessed the list of apps that used the systray
<sabdfl>  - we developed APIs that would make it easy for them to use AppIndicators (mapping GtkMenu and the Qt equivalent, essentially)
<sabdfl>  - we put together documentation
<sabdfl>  - we emailed and irc'd with the upstreams to chat with them and get feedback on the design
<sabdfl>  - and we had some folks just work up patches to submit upstream too
<sabdfl> in all, it was a big effort
<sabdfl> ted gould, jorge, mpt, cody, lots of people helped
<sabdfl> folks from the community helped too
<jcastro> like qense!
<sabdfl> that's the pattern we will follow
<sabdfl> if you have ideas about how we could do it better, chat with me or jcastro or jonobacon
<sabdfl> but i'm bery bery happy with the work in 10.04 LTS and looking forward to 10.10
<sabdfl> the big one for 10.10 in that vein, imo will be the global menu
<sabdfl> but perhaps also windicators
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> randall in Vancouver asks: What are your thoughts on the "Linux" brand and the effect it has on the Ubuntu brand. Is it useful to try to bind the two?
<sabdfl> linux is an awesome brand - it says powerful, freedom, evolving, energised, capable, cross-platform
<sabdfl> for anybody who needs to hear those messages, it's the best
<sabdfl> ubuntu says freedom, precision, reliability, collaboration
<sabdfl> we don't say "ubuntu linux" because that would scope the message to the subset of both groups
<sabdfl> but linux is at the heart of what we do, i don't think anybody is under any illusions about that
<sabdfl> it grates a little when people say "ubuntu is linux", because of course the linux ecosystem is much bigger than just ubuntu
<sabdfl> and everybody should try more of 'em: fedora, gentoo, arch, go wild
<sabdfl> there's something for everyone
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION,  From what I have been reading on the web, and even been told by people on IRC,  it seems quite a lot of experienced users aren't that happy with Ubuntu, and then  many of which are then using another distro instead or mainly instead, because of how things are going more commercial and Mac  OS X like for example.  Does it disappoint you that Ubuntu is starting to lose more of these kind of users?
<sabdfl> thanks david stansby :-)
<sabdfl> errr... not in connection with the question, though ;-)
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> i would like the most responsible, smartest, most fun, most inspired users to pick ubuntu, and that's what i and everyone else here works on
<sabdfl> we build it for ourselves and we build it for others, equally
<sabdfl> it has to meet our high standards, but it has to be useful for as many people as possible
<sabdfl> sometimes, that means we leave out very cool stuff
<sabdfl> i'm a fan of what you can to with gentoo, for example
<sabdfl> there is no better way to learn, fast, how all the pieces fit together, and what's possible
<sabdfl> and there are things that they can do that we can't
<sabdfl> but i don't think that means that anyone who switches from ubuntu to gentoo is a sign that ubuntu isn't important, or worse, that ubuntu isn't interesting
<sabdfl> it's just that there is something interesting there that they are interested in :-)
<sabdfl> in summary: there will always be a flow of talent and energy into, and out of ubuntu
<sabdfl> i'm happy for example when someone who is a member of ubuntu dev also becomes a DD
<sabdfl> that's great for debian and great for us too
<sabdfl> some people like to spin it otherwise, but it really isn't
<sabdfl> it's a win for both projects
<sabdfl> as for commercialism - ubuntu is MOST interesting precisely because we want to walk in that narrow space
<sabdfl> with ethics, and openness, and transparency, and free software
<sabdfl> AND with a commercial framework
<sabdfl> if we can pull it off, the world is a fundamentally different place that day
<sabdfl> i think most of the people who actually *participate* in ubuntu are motivated by that, understand that, aren't turned off by that
<sabdfl> they want us to do it tastefully
<sabdfl> but they want us to be successful
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <txwikinger> QUESTION: Will Kubuntu/KDE have windicators, or will that be a Gnome only feature?
<sabdfl> i hope they do
<sabdfl> it will be straightforward to add to KWin if the maintainers see fit
<sabdfl> and we'd likely add it in Kubuntu
<sabdfl> so a Gnome app running on Kubuntu feels at home
<sabdfl> of course, then the menu would be rendered *properly*,with Qt :-)
<sabdfl> in my blog, i said that the work was enabled by CSD, which is incorrect
<sabdfl> it was inspired by CSD - it was thinking about CSD that inspired the idea to give that space back to the applications
<sabdfl> the actual implementation can be done via CSD or via the window manager
<sabdfl> and in fact, we *need* to express the windicators on the d-bus, to support the global menu case
<sabdfl> which is what the window managers could tap into
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: About the notification area removal plan, how do you plan to address those who need 3rd party closed applications which may not have moved, will the notification still be available but optional ?
<sabdfl> to be clear: the indicators aren't going away
<sabdfl> only the old implementation, the Gnome Systray
<sabdfl> and it will happen in 10.10 for Ubuntu Netbook, and 11.04 for Ubuntu Desktop
<sabdfl> there will not be a way to add it back in the netbook in 10.10
<sabdfl> there *might* be a way to add it back in the desktop
<sabdfl> in 11.04
<sabdfl> but i suspect not
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <bilalakhtar> QUESTION: There were plans to enable RGBA transparency support by default in Ubuntu Lucid, but that was delayed to Maverick. Will RGBA transparency be enabled by default in Maverick?
<sabdfl> i expect so, there will of course be discussions on that at UDS next week, come along or listen in / irc in
<sabdfl> we should be able to enable it early this time because everything is lined up, and just fix bugs
<sabdfl> talk to bratsche
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: randall in Vancouver asks: What do you think can be done to improve clarity and volume on the message that "Ubuntu isn't only software"? In my experience, you can get software from almost anywhere, but only Ubuntu has that missing component: community. (For example, try finding a healthy Fedora user group in your city. I'm picking on them, but could probably pick on any other distro.)
<sabdfl> don't pick on Fedora, it's doesn't help our relationship, and they are important in the broader community!
<sabdfl> i agree with you, it's the added dimension of people that makes ubuntu great
<sabdfl> more generally, it's the dimension of people that makes free software great
<sabdfl> it's not just that you can find a library of code to solve your problem
<sabdfl> it's that it comes with a mailing list of people interested in the same problem
<sabdfl> *that*'s what makes FLOSS great
<sabdfl> i think we could make it easier to connect with people who are using it / building it / building on it
<sabdfl> that would be cool
<sabdfl> why not put some ideas together for UDS, or for Jono et al?
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <dscassel> QUESTION: Are there plans to release the data and results from usability studies so that they can be peer reviewed?  That feedback might be useful for other projects.
<sabdfl> i *believe* that much of that data is already public
<sabdfl> especially when we are doing user testing on specific projects, like empathy or pidgin
<sabdfl> but the right person to chat with is charline in the canonical design team, or ivanka
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Google clearly favors #ubuntu as development system for android are there plans to work together to bring the best experience with android devices to ubuntu (both developers and users)
<sabdfl> that's interesting
<sabdfl> i admire what google is doing with android, even though "it's linux, jim, but not as we know it" ;-)
<sabdfl> i'd be supportive of getting android exposed on ubuntu in a way that was natural to both android devs and ubuntu
<sabdfl> but i don't have any brilliant ideas or master plans to do that
<sabdfl> just an open invitation to one / some / all of you to go ahead
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <bilalakhtar> QUESTION: What are your opinions on Bug 527458 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-application/+bug/527458 ) and the decision to deprecate tooltips from the panel indicators? Will tooltips come back in Maverick?
<sabdfl> i've commented on the bug, for anyone who wants to read the thread there
<sabdfl> in short, i think tooltips are most often a disaster
<sabdfl> because there is a slot there, people put stuff in it
<sabdfl> even if they don't have to
<sabdfl> so we end up with a whole lot of really crap and useless tooltips that just clutter up the interface
<sabdfl> and because they have tooltips, they don't do the extra work to think through the most important info to convey in the underlying asset
<sabdfl> because hey, you can just stuff all the detail in a tooltip!
<sabdfl> i've done it myself, in the past
<sabdfl> i'm ashamed
<sabdfl> but i'm cured
<sabdfl> and so no, i don't think the tooltips will come back
<sabdfl> but it's a 90% certainty for me, perhaps someone will convince me otherwise
<sabdfl> but they'd have to convince a few other people, who might convince me :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: The Edubuntu team has put a tremendous amount of work into Lucid, and has great plans for Maverick.  What do you want to see Canonical, as a company, do to promote the use of Edubuntu in schools?
<sabdfl> we struggled with this inside Canonical
<sabdfl> we're just not geared up to help at the individual school level
<sabdfl> we did try a few projects
<sabdfl> we also looked into working at the regional or national level
<sabdfl> where there are *amazing* things happening with free software, often ubuntu
<sabdfl> but those engagements looked more like "ubuntu in education" rather than "edubuntu" specifically
<sabdfl> so for a while edubuntu slumped
<sabdfl> now, it's re-energised, and that's entirely the credit of the community that's forming there
<sabdfl> well done them
<sabdfl> we can support that with time at conferences and integrating some of their requirements into the base
<sabdfl> with pleasure
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <ralemi> QUESTION: Are there more plans to port ubuntu to more handheld, mobile devices (phones, ebook readers, etc)
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> very much so
<sabdfl> there is a blooming, a blossoming, of linux in consumer electronics
<sabdfl> and lots of the people building those devices want to use ubuntu
<sabdfl> so, we're working on the things they say will make ubuntu even better for them
<sabdfl> tools for building packages, collaborating, building images, etc for those sorts of environments
<sabdfl> traditionally, people used very custom environments for those
<sabdfl> but they'd prefer to use ubuntu
<sabdfl> i'm confident people will love building devices with ubuntu
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> <QUESTION> Hello Mark, I wanted to ask what ideas you have for ubuntu manual, even if it has any kind of integration in Ubuntu.
<sabdfl> what a great project
<sabdfl> the key thing for me will be to see how they keep up with our pace of iterations
<sabdfl> but i think they will, just fine
<sabdfl> they have a lot of energy
<sabdfl> and i'm very impressed with their work
<sabdfl> if they have integration ideas, UDS would be the right place to pitch them
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: randall in Vancouver asks: What excites you most about the project these days? Which part of it gives you the most enjoyment and fun?
<sabdfl> wow
<sabdfl> well, i got a whole new job description this year :-)
<sabdfl> so that's very energising
<sabdfl> mainly i'm focused on the desktop
<sabdfl> and how we reshape that
<sabdfl> hence all the blogging
<sabdfl> and watch out on Monday :-)
<sabdfl> we have a lot of work to do, if we want ubuntu to be popular from devices to the desktop
<sabdfl> and i find that work fascinating - design, engineering, economics, all in one
<sabdfl> i'm also spending quite a bit of time on the cloud computing front
<sabdfl> ubuntu is hugely popular on the EC2 and Rackspace public clouds
<sabdfl> so helping to make it even better for that is fun too
<sabdfl> people are really innovating, there
<sabdfl> and ubuntu's minimalist "jeos" is a great base
<sabdfl> i think we can really unleash system administrators, if we get things lined up just right
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: A while back it was mentioned that Ubuntu had plans for Moblin. Now that Moblin and Maemo merged to form MeeGo, what are Ubuntu's plans with the MeeGo platform? If so, will there be any overlap between MeeGo and Ubuntu netbook Edition?
<sabdfl> quite possibly, but it's unclear at this stage
<sabdfl> we're not boing to do an Ubuntu Moblin Edition, after all
<sabdfl> i think Intel is doing great work, as are the old Maemo team, and their combined effort is important
<sabdfl> but there's still a lot of dust in the air, as to how the pieces all fit together
<sabdfl> we collaborate at many different levels
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> and i'd like to see more of what they are building, before i could form a firm impression of how we could collaborate more closely
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <Xazax> QUESTION: Is there any chance for nautilus elementary becoming default? It looks great, and would highly improve user experinece.
<sabdfl> i haven't seen it, but it seems to be generating a lot of excitement
<sabdfl> is it packaged?
<jcastro> there is a session for improving nautilus for UDS
<jcastro> I am sure elementary will be brought up
<sabdfl> can't see a package
<sabdfl> i'll take a look during UDS
<sabdfl> thanks for the suggestion!
<sabdfl> rick spencer, martin pitt, sebastien bacher all do a brilliant job leading the decision process for which components get into the next version
<sabdfl> it's always a great discussion
<sabdfl> please join in next week
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: You are currently adding social networking and IM support to ubuntu (i.e. the panel), are there any efforts to expand it for other programs, like gajim, psi and xchat?
<sabdfl> i would love them to support both the Me Menu and the Messaging Menu
<sabdfl> but we also need to get on and fix the battery menu, and the network menu, and the bluetooth menu....
<sabdfl> so it's a question of how we divide up our time
<sabdfl> if they need something from us in order to integrate, we'd be happy to add it or at least discuss it
<sabdfl> so, please encourage them to add support for those Ayatana indicators
<sabdfl> it really cleans up the desktop nicely
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> mhall119> QUESTION: Launchpad is going to be getting better support for derivative distros, will Canonical provide any other support, like access to build servers, to unofficial child distros?
<sabdfl> possibly
<sabdfl> it's a reasonable request
<sabdfl> we support PPA's already
<sabdfl> building for a derivative distro would be straightforward
<sabdfl> we would probably have to quota it, as we do PPA's
<sabdfl> chat with flacoste
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> and bigjools
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <fluke_> QUESTION: What is in the future for Ubuntu's cloud computing efforts?
<sabdfl> brilliant :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: You say you want "the fastest browser" in 10.10. What will it be? Will it still be a (optimized) Firefox? Chromium? Some other lightweight simple browser?
<sabdfl> we'll have a discussion at UDS
<sabdfl> there are lots of advocates for Chromium, and Firefox is of course well established too
<sabdfl> i don't have a view yet
<sabdfl> and given the complexity of it, it's not something i'll BDFL :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: what do you think about having a button in Software Center to donate to developers of software that users like? Some think this would hurt the volunteer open source community
<sabdfl> such an interesting question
<sabdfl> it's true that mixing money and volunteerism is likely to wilt the volunteerism
<sabdfl> there's some great sociology research on that
<sabdfl> so we'd have to be careful
<sabdfl> but i'm open to the idea
<sabdfl> i think we need to find ways to support floss projects better
<sabdfl> and that might be one way
<sabdfl> next!
<akgraner> <joaopinto> QUESTION: As the range of systems using Ubuntu and the changes required to push newer technology increases each release brings issues to more and more users which were not involved on the development phase. Do you have any idea on how to address this ?
<jcastro> (this will be the last question)
<sabdfl> it's true - when you build it just for the people building it, everyone feels they were part of the decision
<sabdfl> when there are millions of users who just hit "upgrade", it feels a bit like russian roulette for them
<sabdfl> i can only say, we care about the whole user base
<sabdfl> and work our asses off to make it great, on balance, for the most we can
<sabdfl> and thank you all for helping!
<sabdfl> phew
<jcastro> sabdfl, ok the bot is about to move us along
<jcastro> thanks for stopping by!
<akgraner> Thanks sabdfl !
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Translations - Instructor: dpm - Slides: http://is.gd/bVsDa || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sabdfl> thanks jcastro, and bot, and akgraner :-)
<ClassBot> Slides for Ubuntu Translations: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweeklucid/UbuntuTranslations.pdf
<sabdfl> bye all!
<jcastro> dpm: it's all yours sir
<dpm> jcastro, thanks!
<akgraner> Up Next - Ubuntu Translations - David Planella
<dpm> hey everyone
<dpm> that was an interesting session indeed
<dpm> now let's get started with Ubuntu translations
<dpm> [SLIDE 1]
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator in Canonical, in the Community team
<dpm> there I have the pleasure to work with Ubuntu legends such as Jorge Castro, Daniel Holbach, and least but not last our fearless leader, Jono Bacon.
<dpm> Be very welcome to this session on Ubuntu Translations, where we'll see
<dpm> how Ubuntu can be translated into almost any language,
<dpm> the work of our awesome translation teams,
<dpm> how Launchpad can be used to translate Ubuntu in a distributed manner,
<dpm> and how to get started translating Ubuntu
<dpm> So, without further ado...
<dpm> [SLIDE 2]
<dpm> Benvinguts, Willkommen, Bienvenidos, ãããã, Welcome, íìí©ëë¤, Bem-vindo, Ongietorri, à¦¸à§à¦¬à¦¾à¦à¦¤à¦®, Welkom, MirÃ« se erdhÃ«t, BienllegÃ¡u, á¥áá³á á°áá áá¡, ÐÑÑÐ°ÐµÐ¼, ÙØ±Ø­Ø¨Ø§, Dobro doÅ¡li, Donedigezh vat, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐµ Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, æ­¡è¿, DobrodoÅ¡li, æ¬¢è¿, Velkommen, Welkom, Bonvenon, Tere tulemast, Tervetuloa, Bienvenue, Wolkom, Benvido, ÎÎ±Î»ÏÏ Î®ÏÎ¸Î±ÏÎµ, ××¨×××× ×××××, ÃdvÃ¶zÃ¶ljÃ¼k, Ve
<dpm> lkomin, Selamat Datang, Benvenuti, à²¸à³à²¸à³à²µà²¾à²à²¤, WitÃ´j, ÒÐ¾Ñ ÐºÐµÐ»Ð´ÑÒ£ÑÐ·, Esiet sveicinÄti, Sveiki, Selamat Datang, à¤¸à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤à¤¤à¤®à¥, Velkomen, Benvenguda, Witamy, Bun venit, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°ÑÑ, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, Vitajte, VÃ¤lkommen, à®¨à®²à¯à®µà®°à®µà¯, à¸¢à¸´à¸à¸à¸µà¸à¹à¸­à¸à¸£à¸±à¸, HoÅgeldiniz, ÐÐ°ÑÐºÐ°Ð²Ð¾ Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¸Ð¼Ð¾, Ø®ÙØ´ Ø¢ÙØ¯ÛØ¯, ChÃ o má»«ng, ÙÛØ±Ú¾Ø§Ø¨Ø§ !!!
<dpm> (if I've forgotten to welcome in your language, do write a big "welcome" in #ubuntu-classroom chat, and I'll include it here too :)
<dpm> Ubuntu has a very diverse community, and one of the aspects this diversity is directly reflected is in the number of languages it is translated into,
<dpm> and the communities built around them.
<dpm> [SLIDE 3]
<dpm> "Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice" lies at the very core of the Ubuntu philosophy
<dpm> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
<dpm> which is why we encourage the creation of translation communities and provide them resources to ease the process of translation into their own language
<dpm> so that anyone, without requiring advanced technical skills, can start contributing from day one.
<dpm> So let's try to answer some basic questions...
<dpm> [SLIDE 4]
<dpm> = Who translates Ubuntu? =
<dpm> That's an easy one: Ubuntu Translators.
<dpm> They are volunteers who organise themselves in translation teams, appointed to be responsible for the translation of a given language.
<dpm> And they just rock
<dpm> You can see the full list of Ubuntu translation teams here:
<dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> We've currently got about 140, of about 220 registered languages for Ubuntu in Launchpad, our translation tool
<dpm> So if there isn't an Ubuntu translation team for your language, now is the chance to create one :)
<dpm> More on that later
<dpm> Also very important to mention is the work of upstream translators, whose effort Ubuntu benefits greatly from.
<dpm> Ubuntu includes the best-of-breed Open Source software of the many independent projects available, which is what we call upstream.
<dpm> Translations are no exception, and if these upstream projects are translated outside of Ubuntu, we import and use the awesome work of upstream translators
<dpm> Let's see some numbers about our amazing translations community:
<dpm> nearly 18.000 translators who've submitted at least one translation,
<dpm> coming from more than 240 countries.
<dpm> A default Ubuntu installation contains about 160.000 translatable messages,
<dpm> which can go up to 475.000 when adding non-default apps such as GIMP, Inkscape, etc.
<dpm> And here's an overview of how well translated Ubuntu Lucid is in each language: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/ubuntu-10.04-translation-stats.html
<dpm> So you see that there's a lot of work to do, and _you_ can help in making Ubuntu better supported in your language.
<dpm> Let's see how...
<dpm> [SLIDE 5]
<dpm> = How is Ubuntu translated? =
<dpm> We use our very own translations tool: Launchpad Translations
<dpm> Launchpad Translations allows you to easily translate projects online
<dpm> and seamlessly build and organise translation communities around them.
<dpm> It also allows translating Operating Systems, Ubuntu being the most evident example.
<dpm> You can start translating Ubuntu here:
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<dpm> There you'll see a list of translatable applications and documentation, ordered by priority and ready to translate
<dpm> [SLIDE 6]
<dpm> Alternatively, you can go directly to translatable applications in Launchpad from your desktop.
<dpm> If you open an application and go to Help > Translate this application...,
<dpm> your browser will be started and it will take you to the Launchpad Translations page for that application.
<dpm> Which is pretty neat
<dpm> You can try this: open Gedit, go to "Help > Translate this application..." and see it for yourself.
<dpm> On the browser window that opens you can start submitting translation suggestions from day one.
<dpm> This will take you to the translation page in your preferred language
<dpm> which you can then click on and you'll see the list of translatable applications for
<dpm> in Launchpad, using the standard translations terminology, these are called templates
<dpm> and are the translatable units translators work with
<dpm> I think as we're talking about Launchpad and the next question is related, I'll just take it now
<ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: Could you please give links to tools that I could use to make translating easier?
<dpm> I'd recommend you to try to using Launchpad for online translation
<dpm> it is really easy and flexible
<dpm> and it allows saving your work, even before it is reviewed, facilitating the QA work
<dpm> that said, if you prefer translating offline, Launchpad Translations is flexible enough to let you download PO files (text files used for translations)
<dpm> to be used in offline translation tools
<dpm> These files are standard, so you can use any PO file editor available out there:
<dpm> Virtaal, POEdit, Lokalize, Gtranslator, ... there are quite a few out there
<ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: Are there any offline translation tools that intergrate with Launchpad Translations?
<dpm> so I think the last comment answers that one :)
<dpm> yes
<dpm> ok, let's move on...
<dpm> [SLIDE 7]
<dpm> = How can I contribute? =
<dpm> As in any Open Source project, the important thing is communication.
<dpm> While everyone can submit translation suggestions in Launchpad,
<dpm> they will need to be reviewed by Ubuntu translation teams before being used.
<dpm> We do not only want to provide the best translated OS, but also the best quality of translations.
<dpm> So we also encourage translation teams to communicate through any means appropriate
<dpm> most teams use a mailing list
<dpm> but others also forums, IRC, etc.
<dpm> and most of them have also got a wiki page in the Ubuntu namespace
<dpm> where they coordinate their work
<dpm> So the next step in contributing to Ubuntu Translations is to get in touch with the translation team for your language,
<dpm> and tell them you'd like to contribute.
<dpm> It's easy: you can just find them on
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> On that page, you can just click on the links under the "Team/Supervisor" column and they will take you to the Launchpad page for the team
<dpm> You see that finding the language is easy, it's on the column on the left
<dpm> and most translation teams are named
<dpm> "Ubuntu <language> translators"
<dpm> where <language> is the name of the language they translate into
<dpm> on their Launchpad page you'll find all the info you'll need to get in touch with them
<dpm> If there isn't a team for your language yet, you should definitely start one
<dpm> You can do it by following these simple steps:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
<dpm> it is a one-off step, which shouldn't take long
<dpm> and after the new team has been appointed, you can start translating in Launchpad straight away
<dpm> If that step gets too technical for you, do not worry
<dpm> You can always get in touch with the global translations community and ask for help or advice, which is always a good idea
<dpm> Also if you want to start any discussion on Ubuntu Translations
<dpm> In true Ubuntu spirit, everyone is welcome there, and you'll get to know lots of interesting people from all over the globe :)
<dpm> Here's how to get in touch with the global translations community:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact
<dpm> [SLIDE 8]
<dpm> = Q&A =
<dpm> So I hope that that gave you a taste of how translation works in Ubuntu and how you can join our awesome translators.
<dpm> Now feel free to ask any questions about anything related to translations.
<dpm> Bring them on!
<dpm> gepatino asked: " Can you use launchpad translation tools to translate projects outside ubuntu? what about projects that are not open sourced?"
<dpm> Sure, translation in Launchpad is not limited to Ubuntu
<dpm> if you go to http://translations.launchpad.net/
<dpm> you'll see that there are two main categories of things you can translate:
<dpm> * Operating Systems: the category where Ubuntu falls
<dpm> * Projects: where things like the Ubuntu Manuak, Getting Things GNOME!, Miro and lots of other projects can be translated
<dpm> the external projects do not need to be related with Ubuntu
<dpm> or even hosted in Launchpad
<dpm> although hosting them there will give them the benefits of full integration
<dpm> Launchpad also allows translating projects with different licenses
<dpm> and with different permissions
<ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: What about translation of Ubuntu wiki pages. I am thinking of a side by side type view of a wiki page that you can click a submit button and it then creates the new translated page if it doesn't already exist
<dpm> That's a very cool idea.
<dpm> Unfortunately that's not supported by Launchpad. Launchpad Translations standardizes on the most widely used translation format in the open source world: gettext
<dpm> that means that everything fed to Launchpad needs to be converted to gettext first
<dpm> so you'd need some kind of intermediate conversion to wiki (e.g. MoinMoin) -> gettext, and then the other way round
<dpm> That said, Launchpad is Open Source, and the sky is the limit :)
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> Launchpad Translations developers will be more than happy to mentor anyone wanting to implement new features, as they are currently focusing on developing other really cool stuff: better upstream integration
<dpm> https://dev.launchpad.net/
<ClassBot> vocx asked: translations are very country- or language-specific, so what does the "global translation community" do?
<dpm> Generally the global translation community has representatives from all translation teams, and the local translation coordinators for each language are requested to be subscribed to the global mailing list
<dpm> There we discuss the issues that affect all teams
<dpm> and also post announcements
<dpm> it's the best place to be kept up-to-date of the latest developments on Ubuntu Translations and where new cool stuff and building a global community are discussed
<dpm> For those of you familiar with LoCo teams
<dpm> the ubuntu-translators mailing list, which is the main communication channel for the Ubuntu Translations community
<dpm> is a bit like the loco-contacts mailing list
<ClassBot> MaPo asked: It's possible to get economic support to power some native language translations? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskito
<dpm> I'm not sure I understand the question, economic support from Canonical?
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> I think it's best to leave volunteer communities around translations to organise themselves and not become dependent
<dpm> They can get the best free support the translations community can provide in getting a translation project started
<dpm> I'd encourage you to let them know that, and that they can get in touch with us at
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/
<dpm> (or contact me directly)
<dpm> watercool asked "Exist some api for Ubuntu Translations??"
<dpm> No, there isn't one yet, although as I say, developer community contributions are always welcome. We've got a community project ongoing to provide part of the API
<dpm> A reporting API
<dpm> Check out the discussion at UDS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/UDS
<dpm> and the spec https://dev.launchpad.net/Translations/Specs/ReportingAPI
<dpm> ok, I think that was all
<dpm> Thank you everyone for coming
<dpm> and I'll now let you in the expert hands of StÃ©phane Graber, our Edubuntu hero
<akgraner> Thanks dpm!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Edubuntu - Instructor: stgraber || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> one sec highvoltage and will get you voiced
<jcastro> there we go, sorry!
<highvoltage> Good evening everyone!
<highvoltage> Stephane couldn't make it this evening so I'll be presenting this Edubuntu session.
<highvoltage> I'll provide an overview of the Edubuntu project and try to not to keep it too long so that there's enough time for questions. I'm going to try to keep it concise so if anything needs further explenation, feel free to ask after the introduction!
<highvoltage> For those who have checked our website, we're aware that it's out of date, we're working on a new website that will be live and up to date before the end of the month!
<highvoltage> So, where does Edubuntu come from?
<highvoltage> The first Edubuntu ideas were discussed at the Ubuntu Down Under UDS in Australia in 2005. Later that year those ideas were solidified at the Edubuntu Summit in London, the first release was in October 2005 - Edubuntu 5.10.
<highvoltage> The project has gone through quite some changes since it was initially founded. Initially, Canonical did most of the work. Oliver Grawert worked full time on Edubuntu and did a lot of the important initial groundwork.
<highvoltage> Today, Edubuntu is purely a community project. We make use of Canonical's build infrastructure for packages and iso images, and we're fully integrated with the Ubuntu Community.
<highvoltage> We have a council that consists of 6 members who are responsible for deciding on Edubuntu's technical and community direction, it's also a delegate for the Ubuntu Technical Board and Community Council.
<highvoltage> Other Edubuntu teams may have other leaders that may not necessarilly be part of the Edubuntu Council, although all Edubuntu teams report to the Edubuntu Council.
<highvoltage> That's quite a bit to read! But before I take questions, I should probably give a brief overview of what Edubuntu actually is!
<highvoltage> and apologies for not having slides, we'll do something more fancy for the next openweek, I promise!
<highvoltage> Our current scope of work is to package and maintain educational apps in the Ubuntu archives, allowing Ubuntu users to easily access the best in open source educational apps that's available.
<highvoltage> We're also responsible for the Edubuntu installation disc, which aims to be generic turn-key solution for classrooms and standalone machines used in homes and schools.
<highvoltage> Currently Edubuntu includes educational suites such as GCompris, Tux4kids, KDE-Edu and a few other loose apps. We also aim to make it super-easy to install an LTSP server, making it easier to manage smaller computer environments on tight resources.
<highvoltage> For the past few releases we haven't put much energy into server-side apps that may be useful in classrooms, but we aim to focus a bit more on that over the next few releases.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Edubuntu - Instructor: highvoltage || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<highvoltage> I hope that this provides a good and quick overview of where Edubuntu is today and what we aim to do.
<highvoltage> Apologies if some things sounded weird, English is my second language.
<highvoltage> Let's do some questions!
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: what is LTSP, and how does it benefit Edubuntu?
<highvoltage> LTSP is the Linux Terminal Server Project. When installed on an Ubuntu machine, it allowes you to boot other machines on the network from that machine, allowing a few or many users to effectively use one machine
<highvoltage> This means that a school, library or NGO could set up a computing environment very quickly, since they only need to install and maintain one machine instead of a whole bunch
<highvoltage> lower setup and maintenance work and costs often make LTSP a great choice for low-resourced areas or even really big sites like universities.
<highvoltage> Ready for more questions! (feel free to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat by prepending QUESTION: to your question)
<ClassBot> waltercool asked: How is Edubuntu handling the Microsoft Adversiting on schools? Because the other day, i tried to install Ubuntu on my cousin' computer and have problems, because on his school are teaching Microsoft Office
<highvoltage> It's indeed a known problem, and recently there has been some progress in that area
<highvoltage> some curriculums are set on teaching and using MS Office XP or 2003 or 2007 specifically
<highvoltage> the problem is that once the students graduate it would probably be an outdated version anyway.
<highvoltage> The ICDL (International Computers Drivers License) Foundation has it's ICDL course which is recognised internationally and covers MS Office
<highvoltage> the difference is that they cover the concepts more than which clicks to memorize in order to accomplish a task
<highvoltage> They have a course called OpenICDL that is pretty much the same as ICDL but which covers Linux systems and OpenOffice.org rather than MS Office.
<highvoltage> Having worked with some pretty Microsofticized Education Departments before, I realise it's a hard sell to make them change anything.
<highvoltage> but the best you could probably do in your area is creating some awareness around things like ICDL and OpenICDL.
<highvoltage> Larger than that it's a very tough problem to target directly, MS Office remains very popular and I'm fairly confident that more changes will happen over the next few years that will put some dents into this problem.
<highvoltage> It's certainly not a very short-term problem, one that I can't see us fixing withing a 6 or 12 month cycle. I hope that answers your question!
<ClassBot> Ihmepupu asked: Is there information online about successful Edubuntu projects? (Sorry for the simple question, I couldn't find any with quick googling)
<highvoltage> it's a very relevant question!
<highvoltage> our old (or current, rather) website has been static and boring for years now
<highvoltage> it's actually the oldest drupal installation I have which is more than 4 years old now!
<highvoltage> with our new website we aim to feature community better, because Edubuntu is about people and learning and not just about some technology
<highvoltage> we want to feature stories (good and bad) from our users and people who have implemented Edubuntu.
<highvoltage> we want to know what works and what doesn't, and show off some of the innovation that educators to in schools that gets almost zero exposure anywhere currently
<highvoltage> so in short, we don't have a place for great use cases yet, but towards the end of the month we'll be launching the new site. bencrisford who is also in this channel is leading up the renewed Edubungu Advocacy group (look it up on Launchpad.net)
<highvoltage> part of the Edubuntu Advocacy project is to gain user stories and make them heard.
<ClassBot> vocx asked: What is your perspective on higher education? I mean, I don't have a need for children's toys, I need scientific software, finite-element-analysis, sparse-matrix solvers, advance plotting facilities. Do you think the Edubuntu project can take this into account, or will it remain a elementary education suite?
<highvoltage> Most of the software that the Edubuntu disc currently installed is aimed at kids from 4-18
<akgraner> remained of his question:  of Edubuntu can be made for different ages.
<highvoltage> it's probably not ideal for higher education, however, that doesn't mean that we don't care about higher education
<highvoltage> Our longer-term goals is to include and maintain more higher education packages for Ubuntu
<highvoltage> tertiary institutions usually have better budgets and hence also better sysadmins, infrastructure and other resources
<highvoltage> so they probably won't need to rely on a complete turn-key solution such as the Edubuntu installation disc
<highvoltage> in their case, we'd want to stay out of their business on how they want to implement they're Ubuntu solution
<highvoltage> and focus on keeping the best of tertiary education packages up to date and in great shape
<highvoltage> The last 12 months we haven't been doing much of that, since our main goal was to get the Edubuntu installation disc in great shape. We're quite happy with the progress so far and plan to gradually increase our scope.
<highvoltage> we're happy to get feedback from users in tertiary environment so your feedback is greatly appreciated.
<highvoltage> The Ubuntu installer supports a feature called "tasks" which allows you to choose the typical uses for the system being installed
<highvoltage> in the future we plan to have different "tasks" pre-defined so that a user could choose options such as "Kindergarden classroom computer" or "Kids home computer" or "Scientific workstation" and then the installer would install the appropriate packages automatically
<highvoltage> I could go on about this a bit, but I'd like to give other questions some chance as well...
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Can I get Edubuntu DVDs from Shipit?  If not, is there somewhere I can get them free or cheap?
<highvoltage> Unfortunately, not at this moment. In the past, Shipit did send Edubuntu discs, but Canonical dropped Edubuntu and Xubuntu discs due to the high costs of printing, administering and shipping the extra discs
<highvoltage> cheap discs are usually available from many image downloaders and shippers in many countries.
<highvoltage> There are also companies such as Zareason that will even pre-install en Edubuntu computer and sell it to you.
<highvoltage> Possibly with the next release, we can make Edubuntu shine brightly enough and convince Canonical do at least do a limited run.
<ClassBot> simar asked: I am a student of computer science and is intrested in linux development and programming  .Is Edubuntu will be more beneficial for me than simple Ubuntu ...
<highvoltage> We get many similar questions. "Is Ubuntu better for x, or is Edubuntu?"
<highvoltage> Edubuntu is built from the same software repositories as Ubuntu, and all the exact packages are available in both.
<highvoltage> The Edubuntu disc is basically an Ubuntu build but with a few more packages installed by default.
<highvoltage> When you install Ubuntu, you can even turn it into an Edubuntu system by simply installing the Edubuntu packages.
<highvoltage> In short, there's really not much difference (if any) between what an Ubuntu system and an Edubuntu system can do. They merely provide different defaults.
<highvoltage> All of the technical work that the Edubuntu team does goes directly into the Ubuntu project
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I installed edubuntu-desktop into a Ubuntu 10.04 RC VM that later also got upgraded to the final. Whilst having my very brief and not proper look, I noticed the Me Menu, maybe only since Ubuntu was also installed. Anyway surely since the  me menu isn't really for young children, it shouldn't really be in the default install of  Eubuntu if  it is? Same thing for the Music Store if it is.  Also of course different versions
<highvoltage> Indeed, a Me menu will be pretty useless to you if you're too young to even be allowed to register for the social networking sites that power it
<akgraner> of Edubuntu can be made for different ages.
<highvoltage> however, some schools deploy their own microblogging services such as Statusnet that also integrates with the Me menu
<highvoltage> so instead of trying to dictate it one way or another, we include some administration tools such as Pessulus and Sabayon that allows an administrator to easily remove items such as the Me menu by default for all users
<highvoltage> Disabling the Ubuntu One music store is also as simple as removing a package.
<highvoltage> As for having it by default, we're open to discussing it!
<ClassBot> ZachK_ asked: What is an easy way to get involved with this project? Sorry if that's not a good question....
<highvoltage> that's a very good question indeed, and one that I often have some trouble answering :)
<highvoltage> mostly because there are so many levels to get involved in
<highvoltage> the easiest way is to join our meetings every Wednesday (Europe: Eveneing, US: Morning) meetings and get a feel for our current problems
<highvoltage> you can also then introduce yourself there or to the edubuntu-devel mailing list
<highvoltage> once we're familiar with your skills we can also suggest some work for you. whether you have educational, marketing, coding or web skills we'll have work for you :)
<highvoltage> IRC and mailing list details are available on http://edubuntu.org/Community
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: What programs/programming has been done specifically by or for Edubuntu?
<highvoltage> Currently, just the Edubuntu Menu Editor. Some other programs such as Sabayon have received extensive testing and bug fixing by members of the team
<highvoltage> LTSP Live CD functionality was also specifically written for Edubuntu, but will make it to other derivatives in the future.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Oh got a administration tool,  that has the same name as that Gentoo based distro,  Sabayon?
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<highvoltage> Yes, the same name, but completely different project. Just as there's a gentoo file manager in Ubuntu that's unrelated to the Gentoo distribution :)
<ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: I think collaboration among educational groups is important. Have you thought about expanding into web-services?
<highvoltage> Right, so we're discussing that at the Ubuntu Developer Summit next week as well
<highvoltage> most of those tools are web-based, and web-based tools are often a nightmare to maintain package-wise
<highvoltage> we're going to have a session where we investigate creating and packaging tools that will install and manage web based collaboration suites
<highvoltage> rather than managing it completely via the package management system
<highvoltage> this should take load off package maintainers and also make it possible for users to get updates faster, although I'm not sure it's been done yet so it is a bit experimental. I'll be able to tell you more about plans on this area after next week :)
<highvoltage> The first package we'll be targeting is Moodle
<highvoltage> Debian is considering orphaning it so we'll be looking at creating the tools for that collaboration suite first.
<highvoltage> 19:54 <ClassBot> There are no questions in the queue.
<highvoltage> Any further questions before we run out of time?
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<highvoltage> stgraber just entered, who does a lot of work on Edubuntu. any questions for him perhaps?
<stgraber> hey everyone, sorry I couldn't make it and thanks a lot highvoltage for replacing me here !
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Where can we find more information about the Edubuntu plans for Maverick?
<stgraber> currently we have some plans on gobby.ubuntu.com, a list of ideas is also available on the wiki (URL in a sec) and some specs have been registered for discussion at UDS next week
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/Brainstorming/Maverick
<highvoltage> Yep, that URL contains ideas we brainstormed so long. Next week at UDS some of them will be planned and formalized.
<highvoltage> (oh sorry stgraber did mention that before)
<highvoltage> There's some openweek sessions later this week on how to attend UDS remotely
<highvoltage> if you're interested in joining our sessions, it would be great if you familiarize yourself with the developer summit this week
<highvoltage> That concludes our class! Thanks to everyone who joined it!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Energizing an Ubuntu Community - Instructor: rrnwexec || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rrnwexec> Thanks everyone for joining this session. It's my first ever, so if goof up, please be kind :)
<rrnwexec> First, a little bit about me:
<rrnwexec> I'm Randall Ross, widely known as the Ubuntu Vancouver "Buzz Generator" and the Community Manager of the Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo.
<rrnwexec> I have been using Ubuntu on my personal computing equipment since 2006. Before that, I used a long string of GNU/Linux based distro's dating back to approximately 1996, and before that many UNIX variants.
<rrnwexec> I am a strong FLOSS advocate and supporter and I believe in the need to fix Bug #1 quickly.
<rrnwexec> I believe that Ubuntu represents the best chance we have to do that. But, we have to hurry.
<rrnwexec> Vancouver BC Canada? Remember the Winter Olympics? They were here! Watching NHL hockey recently? We apparently have a team in the playoffs ;) Want to find us? We're on the west coast of Canada.
<rrnwexec> Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo is my main Ubuntu focus (aside from this talk of course). Trust me, it's enough to keep me busy. Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo is currently over 330 people in Vancouver. We meet at least 4-5 times a month, sometimes more. Our events are very diverse and fun: parties (real ones), restaurant social events, presentations, support events.
<rrnwexec> So what I'll present today are some lessons learned from "The School of Hard Knox" on how this city was energized. These tips and tidbits will hopefully help you get more people excited about Ubuntu in your city or town. I hope to offer some practical advice on how to get started, or in other words what works to help "catalyze" the spread of Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> Having said that, and with that intro, all of this is from my point of view. (After all, I'm the one giving the talk.) You might not agree with everything I will say, but please hear me out. Suspend your disbelief.
<rrnwexec> Ok... Let's dive in and see how the water feels!
<rrnwexec> Marketing Ubuntu Locally.. Why Should you Bother?
<rrnwexec> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
<rrnwexec> You like Ubuntu. That's why you're here. You like to help other people. You want to see Bug #1 fixed in your lifetime (possibly so your kids won't have to suffer the way you or I did.)
<rrnwexec> You want to be surrounded by people who "get" Ubuntu (in both senses of the word).
<rrnwexec> What I'm Not Going to Cover
<rrnwexec> This is not about geeking out. This is about getting people excited. Everyday humans. I'm not going to talk about building a "l33t team of Ubuntu hackerz" or code jockeys.
<rrnwexec> I really do believe that we have to step way beyond the traditional boundaries of this project and expand our reach by at least a factor of 10. That means we need to focus on the other 99.9% of the population: Everyday Humans.
<rrnwexec> A few words about Ubuntu "ratholes". Ratholes are time-wasters. Topics (sometimes debates) that spring up in the Ubuntu (and FLOSS) "community" that steal our energy. Though interesting, we need to maintain focus. I'll give you 3 examples. (There are more). Don't be suckered into any of these:
<rrnwexec> "Ubuntu is just another version of Linux". I'm going to assume that you understand why Ubuntu is different.
<rrnwexec> "A LUG is the same as an Ubuntu group". It's not.
<rrnwexec> "Ubuntu isn't really free". I'm going to assume you've not fallen for that (or any other) FUD that stifles passion.
<rrnwexec> A bit about terminology. In order to talk about something it is important to get the terminology right, and to express it clearly. I will talk about "community" a lot. (I just did above.) When I said "community" what came to mind?
<rrnwexec> If you're like many people, you thought of the forums, online discussions, blogs, etc. That's not what I mean by community at all. I will use the definition in the most local sense. Community = Those people geographically close to you within a short walk, bicycle, or bus ride.
<rrnwexec> A rule of thumb I use is that if you can't get to a place in under 30 minutes on a local bus, it's likely not really part of your community. Of course, there are exceptions but that's my guide. Think walking distance. How good are your legs?
<rrnwexec> On of my pet peeves (personal opinion of course) is that we have these things called "LoCo's" that aren't really "local" or "communities". Sure, it's great that we have them and they do serve extremely important roles but I feel that Ubuntu advocates need to get much more local and focused.
<rrnwexec> Take Canada for instance. 7 time zones, dozens of distinct languages and cultures. Cities and towns here each have their own unique dynamics, economies, priorities.
<rrnwexec> Not to pick on the fine folks in any national "LoCo" but how can we possibly expect any national or even regional Ubuntu team to be effective at marketing at a local level. (If that were even its goal). And, Canada is simpler that many countries in that regard.
<rrnwexec> So, first and foremost I advocate a much more literal interpretation of the term LoCo. Think of warfare (I know, strange analogy when talking about humanity but hear me out). Name a war that was won with air power only. None that I can think of. Now, think of our current LoCo structure (mostly national and regional). That's "air power".
<rrnwexec> The LoCo's that I envision are on the ground. They take cities block-by-block and neighbourhood-by-neighbourhood. By take, I mean spread awareness of Ubuntu and help people regain control of their information tools. They embrace those around them and give them the "Huge Ubuntu Bear-hug"!
<rrnwexec> A Thought Experiment
<rrnwexec> Imagine that Bug #1 was fixed in your city/town. What would that look like?
<rrnwexec> Well, first it means that you should be able to walk down your street, or any random street in your city and ask people whether they use Ubuntu. The majority should say "Yes", the minority that does not should still at least know what Ubuntu is.
<rrnwexec> You should be able to go to a local computer store and ask the clerk for a computer that is running Ubuntu. S/he should have a many to choose from. You should be able to walk into your local library and borrow some books on Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> You should be able to buy an Ubuntu magazine or three from your local bookstore. Your roomate should be using it. Your family too. If you have a child in school, the computers they learn on should be running Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> That sounds easy enough, right? Ok. Let's get started!
<rrnwexec> Why start with marketing?
<rrnwexec> Marketing is what makes or breaks a product. If you don't have it, then people don't know about you. If people don't know about you, then you enter that spiral. <Insert operating system that failed here.>
<rrnwexec> Can you think of an inferior operating system that has become popular through brute-force marketing? Can you think of a system that is hostile to its users, yet wildly popular? See the power of marketing.
<rrnwexec> Watch what happens when it fails, but please not on this project!
<rrnwexec> What gets people excited about something?
<rrnwexec> They get excited when there's buzz. When they can feel energy and passion when they are near it, they get excited. When they sense that it is really worthwhile and can make an immediate impact in a practical and positive way, they get excited.
<rrnwexec> When they feel something really important is happening and they aren't "in the know" they get motivated to learn. Excitement breeds excitement.
<rrnwexec> Your job as a person interested in energizing (catalyzing) a town or city is to ensure that that energy field always remains strong. Note that this does not mean that you always have to be the *direct* source of that energy. All it means is that you are always on the lookout for a dip in energy level and are ready to make a few phone calls or send a few emails to key Ubuntu people. It also means that you're always ready to help with a project or
<rrnwexec>  two to help Ubuntu energy stay high. You're always ready to catalyze.
<rrnwexec> I'm going to walk you through a series of steps that you might use to begin catalyzing and creating buzz about Ubuntu in your town.
<rrnwexec> Step 0. Realize
<rrnwexec> Realize that Ubuntu is "the next big thing". Realize that Wikipedia was once very small and Encyclopedia Britannica was once a powerful monolithic reference volume. (Skill testing question: Where are they now?)
<rrnwexec> Realize that "No town is too small." You will always be able to find at least one other Ubuntu user. As soon as you do, you have a group (by definition).
<rrnwexec> Realize that in order to change something, you have to be the first change. Ghandi had it right.
<rrnwexec> Step 1. Use Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> Don't try to skip this step. I mean really use it everyday, for everything. Make it the centre of your computing world. If you can't take this step, then it is going to be difficult to advocate and market it.
<rrnwexec> People will sense it if you are reluctant yourself. People will sense if you have obvious knowledge gaps. And if they do, they may perceive it's because Ubuntu must be difficult to use. (Not that I'm talking about average humans, not computing super-heroes).
<rrnwexec> Step 2. Start Energizing Your Personal Circle
<rrnwexec> (You'll need the strength and support later.)
<rrnwexec> Your friends and family are *really* important. If they don't share at least some of your passion for Ubuntu, their lack of passion may impact you later. Or, as the "computer gal" in your family you may find yourself caught in a nasty tech support scenario of competitor's systems, draining your energy.
<rrnwexec> An anecdote:
<rrnwexec> At "Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo" meetings I always ask this question in my presentations. "Of your three closest friends and family members, how many use Ubuntu?" The number of people that say 0, or 1 shocked me initially.
<rrnwexec> Can you guess how many % said 0 or 1?
<rrnwexec> Please give your answers in chat ;)
<rrnwexec> I would have thought/hoped that in a room filled with Ubuntu people that the majority would already be surrounded by Ubuntu users. That wasn't the case. It still isn't, but it is getting better. Keeping the focus or spotlight on a problem does help. I begin to sound like a broken record at times. Focus. Focus!
<rrnwexec> Step 3. Don't Assume Someone Else is Doing It.
<rrnwexec> Assume is a compound word ;)
<rrnwexec> You probably don't have a LoCo in your city/town. Ask around. Search the web. Look for Ubuntu meetings/events. Did you find anything? Probably not, and if you did, you are lucky. So, you're now in a spot where you likely have a bunch of random and friendly Ubuntu users in your town with no real way to connect to one another.
<rrnwexec> Step 3a: Let's Rewind and Assume that you found a local Ubuntu group. Wow!
<rrnwexec> Track them down. Go to their meetings. Get to know them and their culture. What are their goals? Are they making progress? Do they have any focus and energy on marketing? Do they need help? It's important to really understand a group before trying to help it, lest you offer the wrong help.
<rrnwexec> Step 4. Don't wait for (or expect) "support from the top".
<rrnwexec> I put this step early in the process but it really belongs everywhere.
<rrnwexec> Ubuntu is a community project. Always try to look at your efforts through that lens. Do it because you want to do it and because it's the right thing to do. If you sit back and wait for a barrel of cash (or monkeys, or CD's) from Canonical (or any other Ubuntu supporter/sponsor for that matter), it may be a long wait. If the local marketing and advocacy you want to do requires a large infusion of cash, you might be on the wrong track, taking on 
<rrnwexec> Step 5: Become a Connector (or ask someone to be one) so You Can Spread the Fun
<rrnwexec> Ubuntu users and advocates need someone to help them find each other. Be that person. It starts with one connector. If you're not comfortable connecting people together, perhaps enlist the help of your most sociable friend. They may be up for an interesting challenge.
<rrnwexec> Step 6. Find a Free (or nearly free) Place to Gather
<rrnwexec> Start small. If you have a local coffee shop or community gathering place in your neighbourhood, that's a great venue for your first marketing group meeting. You can likely host a lot of initial meeting in informal settings like this. Make it an easy spot to get to for you and your neighbours. Really make it easy, otherwise you'll be burning energy just to get to meetings.
<rrnwexec> Step 7. Send Word Out in Your Neighbourhood
<rrnwexec> It's easy: "Hey fellow Ubuntu users! We gather at <insert local coffee shop> here on the first Monday of every month at 7pm to help spread Ubuntu. Hope you'll join us!" Keep it friendly, human, and clear. (Like Ubuntu).
<rrnwexec> This type of notice can be put on local public bulletin boards, in libraries, on a pole on (pedestrian) busy intersections, bus stops, etc. (Make sure it's allowed though. Don't come back to me later and say "You made me break the law." Check all local regulations. Find friendly places to post things).
<rrnwexec> You can also sometimes get free listings on community web sites, newspapers, and entertainment magazines. Your initial goal is to attract people that are looking for this kind of stuff, so don't worry if you don't have a massive ad campaign. Some people will find you. The people that find you first are sometimes the ones that have the most interest. It's important to commit to a regular meeting. People like to know there's recurrance.
<rrnwexec> Step 8: Look for Unconventional Places
<rrnwexec> I'm going to take a guess that many of you are somewhat technical. You found your way to Lernid, to IRC, to this session. That took some technical prowess. So, this step may seem interesting.
<rrnwexec> When looking for others that are "into Ubuntu" you will obviously find some in tech circles, universities, and places like that. You can try to attract them, but in reality, they will find you sooner or later. Instead, try harder to attract people from places/settings that are unconventional.
<rrnwexec> Find them at community festivals. Find them at your local library (more on that later). The people you attract from outside the "Ubuntu tech crowd" will likely have really fresh ideas and language that will make your marketing come alive. You need the connectors in "strange places".
<rrnwexec> An anecdote from Ubuntu Vancouver: I'm always extremely happy when someone new finds us, but even more so when they've come to us from a strange place. We have kayak instructors, teachers, musicians, construction workers, doctors... the list goes on and on. The only people we don't seem to have in our group yet are shepherds and lighthouse keepers, but I'm looking.
<rrnwexec> I'll take a short pause here to field a few questions
<ClassBot> balto_ asked: What if there are not enough people with the same interest in the walking distance? shouldn't we use the global village?
<rrnwexec> Good question. My view is that we start as local as we can as our first step.
<rrnwexec> If we cannot find people this way, by all means reach out to chat rooms, discussion boards, etc.
<rrnwexec> even use google search to find people that are talking about Ubuntu in your 'hood.
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Bug 1 yeah, but surely  it shouldn't all be about Ubuntu,  other distro's here and there as well?  Be honest with people give them a choice of distro when trying to convert them from Windows, and that kind of thing?
<rrnwexec> I like this question, and it's one that I get from time to time here too.
<rrnwexec> My job as Ubuntu Buzz Generator is to promote Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> I love all FLOSS. I really do.
<rrnwexec> but...
<rrnwexec> buzzining and marketing Ubuntu is where I'm at. This is the best chance I can see for FLOSS to go completely wild.
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> takelifeeasy asked: To help solve bug 1 and as business drive most things in life, what are your thoughts about creating a âcommunityâ solely helping businesses transitioning off of the Microsoft drip.  Ubuntu seem to concentrate on the end user and there seems to be a gap for a community to help business (note I am excluding Canonical as I am thinking of a user community promoting Ubuntu rather than a commercial comp
<rrnwexec> I think this is a very important goal.
<rrnwexec> Having said that though, beware the challenges of a community-focussed group approaching businesses
<rrnwexec> A more professional group would be needed.
<rrnwexec> People with companies, deeper experience, etc.
<rrnwexec> You may of course find a small business or three to help... perhaps that's a way to get started.
<rrnwexec> But I really feel it starts with energy on the friend and neighbour level.
<rrnwexec> (Some of these people will be business owners and managers)
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> waltercool asked: People Nerby of Empathy seems helping to make a Ubuntu community shared places (public internet connection)?
<rrnwexec> That is awesome!
<rrnwexec> thank you for bringing it up
<rrnwexec> ok... so we all know where "Peaople Near By" came from?
<rrnwexec> Hint: Cupertino.
<rrnwexec> ironically the purchasers of those competitor systems don't seem to know how to really uses it.
<rrnwexec> *use it
<rrnwexec> so, we have an opportunity to show them
<rrnwexec> in cafes and crowded places please turn that feature on
<rrnwexec> and tell everyone you know to do it
<rrnwexec> put an Ubuntu looking name in your nick line ;)
<rrnwexec> promote the Ubuntu brand :)
<rrnwexec> I'm going to continue the presentation... and take more questions in a bit.
<rrnwexec> Step 9: Have a Few "Meetings"
<rrnwexec> I call them meetings, but really the early ones will likely be casual conversations and get-togethers. (That's actually a good thing.) Meetings and formality can scare people away. Just get people talking. See what interesting ideas emerge. Catalyze the conversation by asking them how you could make more people aware of Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> After a few get-togethers you may notice an interesting idea: some fun marketing work. (Yes those two words really can go together). The key is to select something fun. For example, maybe you and your new friends want to put up some posters about Ubuntu, or hand out some Ubuntu CD's. Maybe you want to go give a talk to a school or a local club or group. If you have a few passionate people you can make this happen.
<rrnwexec> One caveat: I think that early on, your projects should be simple and require minimal logistics. You should also focus on spreading the word and getting more people into your group (and by osmosis into Ubuntu), so make sure that everything you hand out or present gives the audience some way of finding you later... your meeting times, location, etc. Make sure that all your effort includes a strong dose of "let's grow our group". That's fuel.
<rrnwexec> (** Note: It's also good to set up a very simple wiki or web page with an easy URL that you can give to people you meet. This allows you to have a single place to point people for updates and information.)
<rrnwexec> Step 11: Don't Get Distracted
<rrnwexec> It's tempting to try to "Boil the ocean". It's also tempting (though equally ecologically insane) to try to "pave the earth". Keep your efforts focussed and simple.
<rrnwexec> Ok, since I've mentioned web page earlier, I want to caution you about ploughing all your scarce new-found friend energy into web development. (This is a rat-trap when your group is young, and maybe even longer.) Use the KISS principle. (Keep It Simple Stupid). The ubuntu.com wiki is a good way to get something up fast. You can create a page or your group. Read and follow the guidelines and learn a bit about it's layout first though.)
<rrnwexec> Another form of distraction is in losing sight of your community. If the energy you are expending is spread too far and wide on areas outside your community, then you're not going to be able to focus on the people near you. The people near you are the ones that matter the most to your daily life.
<rrnwexec> Distraction alert: Back to web sites. They're great ways to get to "connected" (in the wired sense) people all over the world.
<rrnwexec> How many of the people in your town will find you on the web? Likely some. If you have a super flashy web site or one with deep functionality, will it attract more? Probably not. Are there people in your community that are unable to use the web effectively? Absolutely. Are these people valuable? Absolutely! So, get to them another way. If your nearest friends and neighbours haven't heard of Ubuntu, you can fix that without ever creating one line
<rrnwexec> Step 12: You're Making Progress
<rrnwexec> You've had some regular meetings. You've added a few (or many) more people to your Ubuntu group. Now it's time to take it up a notch. Get a somewhat larger project underway, again around advocacy and marketing. If you're fortunate to have enough people already to do some Ubuntu presentations and demos, start organizing some. They are great advocacy too. They are also very useful and valuable to people outside Ubuntu because they show them what's
<rrnwexec> Step 13: You Have a Real Group!
<rrnwexec> People are starting to hear about you. You continue to market Ubuntu and your group's place in it. The news of your demos and presentations spreads. Congratulations! You are now real, and you've taken a major step to an Ubuntu community. Where you were once "the only one", you now have friends. Ubuntu friends! Your group is having regular meetings.
<rrnwexec> Step 14: Giving More People More Reasons to Join You
<rrnwexec> As you attract more and more people, you'll begin to notice that there are new opportunities. Each new person that joins your group brings in new possibilities. The possibilities that open up to you will be in part related to your town or city and what passions people have.
<rrnwexec> Find out what their passions are, and try to find fun ways for them to express that passion. Do you have a graphic artist in the group? Have her present some topics on Graphic Arts using Ubuntu to your group, and extend invitations out to other artists.
<rrnwexec> Gimp, Inkscape, all that good stuff. Did you attract some programmers? Have them work on a program that will benefit the group. Maybe it's a custom application that does something useful like keeping track of your group's growth...  which leads me to:
<rrnwexec> Step 15: Make a Map!
<rrnwexec> Understanding where your group is will become very important. It helps you optimize meeting locations. It also helps you understand where your marketing is working, and where it's not. With a good map you can focus scarce resources. Make a map. Always keep an eye on it. (Note that I'm not advocating that you have home addresses of all your group or community. General areas work well: postal codes and zip codes).
<ralemi> .
<rrnwexec> Step 16: Is This Building Buzz?
<rrnwexec> If you have people regularly meeting and enjoying snazzy Ubuntu demos, you're going to start to get buzz. But don't stop there. Not everyone wants to learn about computers all the time (so I'm told). Have some other events too. Some of them should be purely social.
<rrnwexec> Parties and social events without a computer in sight. (Hint: Release Parties should be real parties!) Use those events to talk about other aspects of Ubuntu and the positive energy of the idea. Use them to build local community. Meet your neighbours. Spread your passion.
<rrnwexec> Step 17: Expand and Reach Out
<rrnwexec> The number one problem is awareness. You need to get the word Ubuntu out into your community. Here are some ideas that have worked in mine:
<rrnwexec> a) Small posters and flyers in neigbourhood places
<rrnwexec> b) Small stickers with a tiny URL pointing to your group page
<rrnwexec> c) Adopt businesses. Find places that like to host your events and help them in return for their hospitality
<rrnwexec> d) Embrace other groups that are established in your community
<rrnwexec> e) Using the meetup.com online channel. It's a superb meeting management engine, promoting face-to-face community. Added bonus: the network effect.
<rrnwexec> Step 18: Remove the Barriers
<rrnwexec> "I'd like to use Ubuntu but...."
<rrnwexec> a) There's no support. Build a community support event that occurs regularly (some people call these Installfests)
<rrnwexec> b) I can't buy it in the stores. Identify local independent stores that can provide Ubuntu certified equipment and partner with them.
<rrnwexec> c) It's too much work to learn. Ask the teachers in your group to engage their passion and run some community classes
<rrnwexec> d) I'm happy with what I have. This is a tough(er) one. But, if you have built a lively and diverse community around Ubuntu, people will begin to care less about their favourite OS. The real parties are with your group. Remember: have real parties.
<rrnwexec> Step 19: Don't Expect Everyone to Join Your Group Immediately
<rrnwexec> People are in different stages of life. Their timing may not match yours or the latest realease cycle. They may have significant barriers that prevent them from getting involved (or even in test-driving Ubuntu). That's ok.
<rrnwexec> Over time they'll come to a realization that this project is "the next big thing" and that might get on bandwagon. They will. Until that happens, focus on people that easier (more receptive) to change.
<rrnwexec> Step 20: Have Fun
<rrnwexec> I can't emphasize this enough.
<rrnwexec> Step 20: Have Fun
<rrnwexec> Do it for fun, and not for money. Do it because it feels good to help others and to spread something that's worthwhile. When the fun stops, the party's over.
<rrnwexec> What does fun look like?
<rrnwexec> There's this:
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Surely it would be a bad thing really  if  Ubuntu gained about as much market share as Windows has now on the Desktop? Imagine developers of other distro's who also contribute upstream, how annoyed  loads of them would probably be?  So ideally distro's should work more together, and ideally a few popular distro's should have the big 80% or so desktop market share, if any.
<rrnwexec> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2722/4065495885_d6950d1a59_m.jpg
<rrnwexec> and this!
<rrnwexec> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/4200762208_c2f4b80978_m.jpg
<rrnwexec> (Question: Do they look like they're having fun? ;)
<rrnwexec> I'll take some more questions now
<rrnwexec> sebsebseb: Thanks. I don't thing that's something we need to be too worried about at the moment.
<rrnwexec> Think 92% (Windows)
<rrnwexec> we have a long way to go.
<rrnwexec> When we get to 70%, let's revisit ;)
<rrnwexec> <next question>
<ClassBot> waltercool asked: How can i make the step 2, when your friends are fans of World of Warcraft, DoTa (Warcraft 3) or other Windows Games? Bug #1?
<rrnwexec> Thanks and good point.
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<rrnwexec> The avid gamers I know swear that Ubuntu has no games.
<rrnwexec> But, we're strating to prove them wrong
<rrnwexec> not only that, but we've spun up an Ubuntu Vancouver Games Group... to make sure we can always showcase and build the best games
<rrnwexec> this group is making real progress locally.
<rrnwexec> the key is: find the good games and demo them!
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: comment really, I've found wearing an ubuntu-branded shirt in public gets me connected to people who have heard about it and have questions
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<rrnwexec> OOO!
<rrnwexec> perfect.
<rrnwexec> This happens to me a lot. Some days when I wear my Ubuntu polo shirt, people (nice people) approach me to say hi
<rrnwexec> At first I was a bit startled
<rrnwexec> then I learned a trick ;)
<rrnwexec> Always carry business cards that point back to meetings of your group ;)
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: are there neighborhood sub-groups are in your loco?  How often do they meet?
<rrnwexec> We are currently encompassing metro-Vancouver
<rrnwexec> meaning we have some municipalities that are a bit farther than the 30 minute rule.
<rrnwexec> and that's ok!
<rrnwexec> they are amazing people and friends.
<rrnwexec> I expect as we get denser, we'll see evenmore locality
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: How can we contact you?
<rrnwexec> email. randall@executiv.es
<rrnwexec> (note that i'm not really in Spain ;)
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Do you have a Step 10?
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<rrnwexec> very funn
<rrnwexec> *funny ;)
<rrnwexec> <next question please>
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: about those 99.9% non-geeks, most of them aren't going to care about gimp, inkscape, or any other software, how do you make them want to join your Ubuntu group?
<rrnwexec> Ah. Good one!
<rrnwexec> Focus on the result, not the tools
<rrnwexec> Show them things like: "How to make a greeting card for your Mom"
<rrnwexec> her day is coming, remember?
<rrnwexec> <next question>
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: don't forget http://loco.ubuntu.com/events
<rrnwexec> yes, great mention of that. we do use that too... we're starting to use it more.
<rrnwexec> and the dev's are doing great things with it. Expect more features soon.
<rrnwexec> <next please>
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: I have started trying to build a buzz within an existing community, so I already know many of their interests.  It must be hard to do this if you dont know or have common interests?
<rrnwexec> Ok, this will be the las question
<rrnwexec> You have something in common with Ubuntu.
<rrnwexec> start with that
<rrnwexec> and if not the software, start with the Humanity
<rrnwexec> ok a few closing words ;)
<rrnwexec> I hope you've found this interesting and maybe even somewhat useful. As "Buzz Generator" for Ubuntu Vancouver it just wouldn't be a complete talk without me saying: If you're ever out our way, please do look us up and enjoy one of our parties.
<rrnwexec> Our friendly team of Ubuntu Ambassadors is always ready to give you a HUB. (Huge Ubuntu Bear-hug.) Speaking of which, this whole adventure has been made more fun by our Ubuntu Vancouver's First Ambassador Rex Alemi.
<rrnwexec> Rex: thank you! And I want to also thank all my friends and supporters in Ubuntu Vancouver. You rock!
<akgraner> Thanks! rrnwexec  - Great Session!!
<rrnwexec> For all you people tuning in from towns and cities all over this world, you now know what you have to do: Get your neighbours excited about Ubuntu! Please hurry.
<rrnwexec> :) the end.
<akgraner> You rock!  Thanks again!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Proactive Security Demonstration - Instructor: kees || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> up next is the  - Proactive Security Demonstration - Kees Cook
<akgraner> kees, if you are ready the floor is yours
<kees> hello!
<kees> this is going to be fun; I'll be using an EC2 ubuntu system to demo security features in Ubuntu.
<kees> my name is Kees Cook, and I'm on the Ubuntu Security team.
<kees> I'm going to give some examples of what security features ubuntu has, based on our list here:
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features
<kees> before I get started, just a quick show of hands in the -chat channel, who is new to that page, and who has read it before?
 * kees checks for lurkers... :)
<kees> okay, cool.  looks like we need to make more people aware of that page.  :)
<kees> anyway, to get started with this, I'd like everyone to ssh to the EC2 instance I have running.
<kees> ssh -C guest@ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com
<kees> the password is "guest", and it will drop you into a read-only "screen" session
<kees> where you can follow along and watch me type commands, see output, etc.
<kees> I'll pause here a minute to let people get online.  You should see my  Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week "Proactive Security Demonstration"  banner in an 80x25 terminal once you're in.
<kees> QUESTION: RSA key fingerprint is 4b:0d:08:3f:cd:7a:3f:ce:04:00:71:a8:c7:e6:b6:31?
<kees> yup
<kees> okay.  I'm going to be wandering around in the Features list, since some things are easier to demo that others.
<kees> however, I wanted to call attention to our regression test suite:
<kees> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/qa-regression-testing/master
<kees> it's large, so I've extracted the tests I'm going to use:
<kees> http://people.canonical.com/~kees/demo/
<kees> you can follow along on your own system if you want, or you can watch the EC2 session.
<kees> basically, these tests attempt to validate as many of the Ubuntu security features as possible.
<kees> (oh, also, please feel free to ask questions as we go, and I'll either answer right away, or say that I'm delaying it until later)
<kees> okay.
<kees> so, here goes in the EC2 session
<kees> in the "qrt" directory are the tests I linked to above
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: can we somehow replay this demo for friends later?
<kees> this test builds and tests a whole stack of kernel security tests. the next for glibc, and finally gcc (the compiler)
<kees> now, each test can be examined, but I wanted to look at just a few.
<kees> so, here's a quick one:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#No%20Open%20Ports
<kees> "what is listening by default?"
<kees> netstat -lpwut
<kees> will show that.
<kees> I have apache and ssh listening because I installed them, and DHCP is there too.  so, yeah, it's all good.
<kees> moving on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Hardening
<kees> this is a large catch-all that the qrt stuff attempts to test.
<kees> a direct example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Non-Exec%20Memory
<kees> this is to see that data cannot be executed.  it stops a huge class of memory corruption vulnerabilities.
<kees> in the "nx" subdirectory is a tool that specifically tries to execute code from data areas.
<kees> we'll use the "stack" test, since it's the most well understood in general
<kees> so, here we see it attempting to run code from the stack, but the kernel stops it.  You can see the report from "dmesg" about the failure.
<kees> without "nx", it would just return.  you can see that with "mmap-exec", which is a way to set up a memory region to execute data...
<kees> in this case, the test tool expects to return.
<kees> so, even some attack manages to break a piece of software and tries to inject their code, they're going to have a hard time of it since there are very few places where the kernel won't just kill the program out-right.
<kees> moving on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#ASLR
<kees> this randomizes process memory so an attack can't guess where to even begin their memory corruption attack.
<kees> if I look at two instances of the "cat" process's stack location, I can see they're in different locations on two different runs.
<kees> bfec5000 vs bf909000
<kees> but, we also want: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#/proc/$pid/maps%20protection
<kees> I shouldn't be able to see another user's memory maps (in this case, root's, for process 1 -- init)
<kees> next: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Stack%20Protector
<kees> the Ubuntu toolchain enables the "stack protector" to detect overflows.
<kees> without it, an overflow is uncontained, as we see with the stack-protector-off program
<kees> if we look in gdb at this...
<kees> we see it's trying to execute at 0x41414141.
<kees> and that's "AAAA" (we can see from "man ascii")
<kees> we don't want an attacker to be able to jump to arbitrary locations, so the stack protector (gcc's -fstack-protector) is always used.
<kees> in the case of the -on binary, it shuts down instead of allowing the process to continue
<kees> you can see that glibc is killing it off an screaming loudly "*** stack smashing detected ***"
<kees> next example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Fortify%20Source
<ClassBot> jdstrand asked: will you be making your screen session available online (eg via script of similar?)
<kees> jdstrand: yup, I've got "script" running for that purpose.  :)
<kees> so, fortify source is similar to the stack protector, but it covers a LOT of other things.
<kees> I'm going to look only at "format string protection", since it's kind of wild.
<kees> if you see during the compile, gcc yelled about an unsafe use of a format string.  i.e.  printf(variable); instead of printf("%s",variable");
<kees> so we can run it...
<kees> we see that the format string is being accidentally expanded.
<kees> and in the case of "%n", this can allow an attack to write to memory locations.
<kees> in this case, it's just exploding, but it could be manipulated.
<kees> so, with the "fixed" version, it's still got the bug, but %n gets caught
<kees> the fortify source protections are really cool, I think.  :)
<kees> next up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#0-address%20protection
<kees> this got a lot of attention recently due to the popularization of "kernel NULL pointer attacks".  Ubuntu has been protected since 8.04 from this stuff.
<kees> we can see the bottom limit of what memory can be used (64k here)
<kees> and this test validates that it can't map memory below that 64k.
<kees> if we try, we see that it rejects it.  no way for an attack to map low memory and then exploit a kernel bug to gain root there.  :)
<kees> relatively new feature: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Block%20module%20loading
<kees> I called this out in particular because not a lot of people know about it.
<kees> one way that attackers really make someone's life miserable is by injecting evil kernel modules once they're root.  (though really, if they're root, boy does that person have trouble)
<kees> this /proc/sys setting controls if modules can be loaded at all.  I'm not actually going to change this setting since I'm not sure if EC2 to hate me afterwards.  :)
<kees> if you set it to "1" it can't be set back to 0, so it's a one-way toggle for after you've booted a system.
<kees> now, moving on to another slightly longer example.
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#AppArmor
<kees> this is the MAC system that can really tightly isolate processes.
<kees> in this case, I'll confine an apache host.
<kees> so, the demo server is running: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/
<kees> and i've written an insane PHP script: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.phps
<kees> it takes arguments, e.g. http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=info
<kees> and we can see files with it: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/etc/motd
<kees> but since it's unsafe, we can run other stuff too: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id
<kees> so, to protect ourselves from this kind of evilness, we can enable the apache profile I wrote...
<kees> so, here's a running apache instance with the profile active.
<kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/ still works
<kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=info  still works
<kees> but this does not:
<kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id
<kees> and we see the rejection from apparmor in the dmesg output.
<kees> we could add back the shell (dash) and "cat", to see files again, but "id" would be blocked...
<kees> let's see if I can do this live...
<kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/etc/motd  works again
<kees> and  http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id  doesn't.
<kees> so, this has been a bit of a fire-hose of examples and script and such, but I wanted to leave some time here on the back-half for questions, or any areas I could drill down into, etc.
<kees> anyone got any questions about this, the general security feature list, security in general, etc?
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: security newbie - all the security measures shown are standard in Ubuntu desktop and server?
<kees> yes, everything here is standard to ubuntu and all the derivatives.
<ClassBot> Resno asked: So, for general use what are things we can do to better secure ourselves from attacks?
<kees> in case, the compiler hardening (stack protector, fortify, etc) are all built into the compiler so even locally compiled stuff gains the protections.
<kees> in general, things are pretty safe.
<kees> I tend not to trust my browser
<kees> so I enable the AppArmor profile for firefox.
<kees> you also want to make sure you've actually got NX working on your system.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I don't really understand this session, but I know PHP scripts can be rather insecure when not coded properly,  so basically Apparmor can help secure such scripts on an Apache web server?
<kees> that's one of many ways to use AppArmor, yes.  You'll want the libapache2-mod-apparmor package installed.
<kees> and you'll want to examine /etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.apache2.mpm-prefork.apache2
<ClassBot> CodyR asked: Why use AppArmor over Selinux?
<kees> it includes /etc/apparmor.d/apache2.d/ where you can write custom profiles, etc.
<kees> both SELinux and AppArmor work on Ubuntu
<kees> we just use AppArmor by default because it's so much easier to use.
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: AppAmor looks great, but where can I see lots more (Ubuntu) examples?
<kees> for apparmor in general, see /etc/apparmor.d/ all the default profiles are in there.  for more the "apparmor-profiles" package has some examples
<kees> there's information about writing profiles too
<kees> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor
<ClassBot> yltsrc asked: howto get/enable firefox profile?
<kees> oh! yes, it comes disabled by default, but:  sudo rm /etc/apparmor.d/disable/*firefox*; sudo service apparmor reload   will do it
<kees> be sure to read the profile; it blocks a lot of stuff.  :)
<ClassBot> yltsrc asked: apparmor profiles for chromium|epiphany|etc.?
<kees> there aren't yet, but at UDS, we plan on working on chromium a bit.
<ClassBot> CodyR asked: Is AppArmor better or worse than other similar mechanisms such as SELinux / GRSecurity kernel patch? Does it offer anything else / additional?
<kees> as jdstrand mentioned in -chat, for the firefox profile, this is probably easier:  sudo aa-enforce /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.firefox
<kees> AA is just different from SELinux and grsecurity's RSBAC
<kees> AA and RSBAC try to confine process, and SELinux tries to confine data, is how I think of it.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What firewall to use  in Ubuntu is the kind of question that will come up in #ubuntu every now and again.  Then it's like you can learn how to configure iptables or install a graphical firewall such as gufw and enable it.  For a home user is there really a need to do anything when it comes to firewall and Ubuntu?  Is it enough to rely on whatever is set up by default in Ubuntu for security, and a built in router firewall.
<kees> it's inaccurate on all counts, but the differences are subtle.
<ClassBot> virtuald asked: Â how do firefox apparmor profile work with extensions and plugins?
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kees> I think firewalls tend to get in the way of things, and generally don't really help security when you're running services.  firewalls don't block a bug in a web server, for example.
<kees> but, if you want to keep safe anyway, ufw (or gufw) is _great_.
<kees> I think learning to use ufw is way easier than iptables directly.
<kees> "how do firefox apparmor profile work with extensions and plugins?"
<kees> if the plugin doesn't try to access any files outside of ~/.mozilla or run any extra programs, it usually works just fine.
<kees> that said, you'll want to be running "aa-notify" or watching your dmesg output for hints when things get blocked that you didn't want to be blocked.
<kees> sounds like we're out of questions for now.  if you think of any more or generally want hang out, please join us in #ubuntu-hardened on IRC or feel free to email me at kees@ubuntu.com.
<kees> thanks everyone for joining in and participating!
<akgraner> Thanks kees!
<ClassBot> huntz0r asked: Nice session, but a lot of it went way over my head! :-)   is there any place you would recommend to help swot up on some of the things covered?
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features has a lot of pointers
<kees> I would also read:
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: do you have any way of knowing which features matter the most in the wild?
<kees> yes.  NX is without a doubt, #1.
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kees> there are tons of logic mistakes in webservers and scripts, but NX will block a lot of further escalation
<ClassBot> yltsrc asked: is it possible to setup aa-notify to send emails?
<kees> I'd put a MAC system, like AppArmor at #2 for servers.
<kees> but then fortify+stack protector, etc.
<ClassBot> JR0cket asked: are all new apparmor profiles packaged in the apparmor-profiles package, or will they be seperated out? something for UDS?
<kees> we separate profiles into the package that ships the binary.  apparmor-profiles is really just for non-production testing
<kees> 19:56 <+ClassBot> yltsrc asked: is it possible to setup aa-notify to send emails?
<kees> not presently, but I bet it wouldn't be too hard to add.  :)
<kees> okay, I'm out of time!  thanks again everyone!
<akgraner> Thanks again kees and everyone who joined the session
<akgraner> kees, session concludes todays Open week session hope to see you all back here tomorrow 1500 UTC Kernel Q&A
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-06
<dholbach> Development and MOTU Q&A Session in 20m
<dholbach> hello everybody!
<dholbach> who do we have here for the Q&A session?
<dholbach> maybe let's start with a quick round of introductions
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Packaging and MOTU Q&A - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, living in Berlin, interested in making Ubuntu Development more exciting :)
<dholbach> who else do we have here?
<gotunandan> i am here
<dholbach> sorry
<dholbach> just turned the moderation off
<dholbach> so please speak up, when you're here and let's do some introductions :)
<gotunandan> nobody else ?
<gotunandan> i saw your dent on identi.ca and popped up here !
<dholbach> nice gotunandan :)
<dholbach> I'm sure we have a few shy lurkers among the 154 people in here :)
<jk-> ok, Jeremy Kerr here, living in Perth, Australia
<gotunandan> still need to use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for the questions ?
<jk-> :)
<dholbach> hey jk-
<jk-> heya dholbach
<dholbach> no no, we'll just chat in here
<dholbach> are you excited about maverick? :)
<jk-> i am in a constant state of excitement
<gotunandan> yeap... and more keen on joining in the "fun" in some way
<dholbach> awesome - I set up a vm for maverick already :)
<dholbach> did you guys bring any questions or is there anything you were wondering about packaging, ubuntu development, motu, tools, processes, etc?
<jk-> kinda - I see that a package has been dropped (due to FTBFS), and would like to adopt it
<jk-> so maybe that's more of a 'process' type issue
<gotunandan> <QUESTION> What would I need to start with to help with packaging ? I have already done some basic packaging and I have a ppa on launchpad as gotunandan. But not sure whom to approach to get actively involved in helping the MOTU
<maco> dholbach: better a vm than your actual system O_O toolchain freeze scary
<dholbach> ok, let's go through these one by one
<dholbach> jk-: cool - which package is it?
<jk-> python-creoleparser
<dholbach> maco: definitely - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases is your friend :)
<dholbach> jk-: I found it here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/0.6.1-1
<dholbach> and it seems to have built on i386: packages that are architecture-independent, such as a bunch of python scripts are just built on i386
<maco> gotunandan: have you seen harvest http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest ? its dholbach's "find low hanging fruit for motu-wannabes" site
<dholbach> maco: this one is not functional right now - I hope to get the new harvest site up soon though
<gotunandan> maco: I have heard of it, not seen it. Having a look
<jk-> dholbach: but not built for lucid?
<maco> dholbach: oh
<dholbach> Usually the https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/+publishinghistory page shows if it was removed or something
<maco> dholbach: what happened to the prettiness rockstar made last UDS? it never got uploaded?
<dholbach> jk-: it was built in karmic, then it never changed afterwards
 * maco tries to remember +publishinghistory
<jk-> i see
<dholbach> maco: it was improved, but it's not deployed yet
<dholbach> jk-: we don't rebuild all packages for a new release - it'd probably take weeks :)
<dholbach> we just "copy them over"
<dholbach> jk-: is there anything wrong with the package right now?
<jk-> ok
 * jk- wonders why it's not appearing in the repo then
<dholbach> ok, let's see about that
<jk-> possibly quite off-topic now though :)
<dholbach> no no, that's fine
<dholbach> first of all: you're right :)
<persia> It's a bit off-topic, but the binary was probably removed due to a FTBFS with current tools, as a result of a supportable-binaries spec in lucid.  This affected ~600 packages.
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$ LC_ALL=C sudo apt-get install -s python-creoleparser
<dholbach> Reading package lists... Done
<dholbach> Building dependency tree
<dholbach> Reading state information... Done
<dholbach> elky: Couldn't find package python-creoleparser
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$
<dholbach> oh, that's interesting, let me test-build it
<persia> dholbach: Fix your nick-completion :)
 * elky tilts her head wondering...
<dholbach> errrrrr, that was xchat-gnome-auto-completion
<dholbach> sorry about that - I didn't even press "tab" :)
<dholbach> I just copied/pasted
<elky> That's  not a very nice feature then
<dholbach> not, not really
<ToyKeeper> xchat -> settings -> preferences -> input box -> [ ] Automatic nick completion (without tab key)
<persia> It's more helpful than it ought be: file a bug :)
<dholbach> ok, so I just  apt-get source creoleparser; sudo pbuilder build creoleparser*.dsc
 * elky hugs regular xchat and goes back to what she was doing.
<gotunandan> maco: yes seen it now. Cannot really fathom where to go though ?
<dholbach> aha, the package fails to build: http://paste.ubuntu.com/428772/
<maco> gotunandan: dholbach just said that its currently in ick mode. the shiny new harvest isnt online yet apparently
<gotunandan> maco: the sourcepackages,html page is huge !
<maco> yeah.... i remember that
<dholbach> gotunandan: best to ignore that page for now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a bunch of pages that make more sense right now
<dholbach> jk-: I just had a look if the package changed in Debian and it did - http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/c/creoleparser/creoleparser_0.7.1-1/changelog looks a lot like it's going to build now
<jk-> dholbach: so, say I hack on it a bit and fix that;
<dholbach> "   * Use python.mk for install options."
<ToyKeeper> (if xchat-gnome doesn't have the UI, it's probably '/set completion_auto off')
<maco> gotunandan: also, if you can read a bit of code, know how to apply a patch & rebuild a package... the patch review team could use some help ;-)
<dholbach> I'll just get the source from Debian and see if that works
<dholbach> (got to the changelog page via packages.debian.org/src:<source package>)
<maco> gotunandan: the patch review team and motu both have the goal of getting the patch in & bug fixed. its just that the patch review team tries to get the patches to upstream or debian so then the motu can just update the package to the latest version upstream and it magically is fixed
<gotunandan> maco: yes, thats certainly possible. Whom do I get in touch with, nigelbabu ?
<jk-> dholbach: sid ?
<dholbach> jk-: if the package from debian builds just fine, we'll auto-import it in a few days (once maverick is truly open) since the package is unmodified in Ubuntu
<dholbach> jk-: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=sourcenames&keywords=creoleparser
<maco> gotunandan: sure or join #ubuntu-reviews
<jk-> ok
<maco> gotunandan: we've got a patch day going right now
<persia> gotunandan: If you're looking for patch review, stop by #ubuntu-reviews : if you're looking at getting the patch straight into Ubuntu, #ubuntu-motu is the better place.
<jk-> but we sync from sid or squeeze?
<maco> persia: well once its reviewed it can still have a shot at an sru
<dholbach> jk-: ah, sorry - I misunderstood - I think for maverick we'll sync from sid again
<jk-> i guess it doesn't matter in this case :)
<dholbach> yep, but it fails the same way
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/428774/
<jk-> so I should hack on the debian package instead?
<dholbach> it'll get auto-imported, so it will make sense to work on that
<dholbach> what I'd probably try next is to see if a bug was already filed upstream about this
<dholbach> it's a bit weird that the package seems to build in debian, but not here
<dholbach> since we don't modify its code
<dholbach> jk-: if the fix is really just "add some __init__.py files", it'd probably make sense to fix it in lucid too if the package is truly helpful
<persia> Actually, arch:all packages often run into this issue, because of differences in the Debian and Ubuntu build systems.
<dholbach> gotunandan: to get back to your question: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a lot of useful stuff - once maverick opens I guess a lot of people will focus on merging packages from Debian
<persia> Most of those are bugs that are happily fixed in Debian.
<dholbach> persia: but you wouldn't know what specifically is broken there? it's not a common ftbfs?
<persia> I don't happen to know, sorry.
<dholbach> ok, thanks
<dholbach> gotunandan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging should give you some tips how to do it
<dholbach> (and of course there's always #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu)
<persia> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_updated.html is also worth mentioning in the context of merging: we don't get everything from Debian.
<gotunandan> dholbach: thanks !
<jk-> ok, say it's an ubuntu-specific fix then, and I create a dpatch, what next?
<dholbach> get it sponsored: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<jk-> ok, cool
<dholbach> usually just file a bug report or use an existing one, add the patch, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors, get it uploaded
<maco> dpatch?
<dholbach> or you can use the distributed development approach
<dholbach> where you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser
<maco> is dpatch like debdiff? ive not heard this one before...
<jk-> so attach the dpatch itself, or a patch to add the dpatch + changelog + etc
<dholbach> maco: dpatch is one of the many patch systems
<jk-> ?
<persia> maco: dpatch is one of hte available patch systems: `apt-cache show dpatch`
<dholbach> jk-: the latter makes it more straight-forward to just upload it (if it's good)
<jk-> ok, great
<maco> jk-: for what dholbach just mentioned with distributed development: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation
<jk-> maco: thanks
<dholbach> where you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser , create a branch for that fix, and add a merge proposal
<maco> im starting to appreciate source version 3 uniting on quilt. at least i only have to know how one thing works
<dholbach> mvo wrote a tool call edit-patch (in ubuntu-dev-tools), it should help with all the different patch systems
<maco> dholbach: hey i have a motu sponsory question. is there a way to see all bugs that have branches attached?
<maco> or to see all open merge proposals for which you are able to approve it?
<dholbach> maco: I use http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html
<dholbach> and sort by the first column
<dholbach> all "unseeded"
<maco> dholbach: i thought that was just listing bugs that have sponsors subscribed
<dholbach> erm
<dholbach> that's broken
<dholbach> maco: no, branches too
<dholbach> but the "unseeded" thing is broken right now
<dholbach> more TODO list
<dholbach> I'll get to it later today
<maco> it just looks like all but 2 are for unseeded packages
<jk-> does the merge proposal need a corresponding bug?
<dholbach> maco: yes, that's a bug
<maco> jk-: generally, yeah
<dholbach> no
<dholbach> if there's a bug, link to it, but you don't need to specifically file onw
<dholbach> one
<maco> i thought for bookkeeping it was good to have a bug and a LP: #foo in the changelog?
<jk-> ok
<maco> is this a bzr-lets-bookkeeping-happen-regardless thing?
<dholbach> if there's some actual discussion about the thing going on, it's good to link to it in the changelog
<dholbach> but if you just say something like "changed x, y and z in a, b, c: this makes the package build again" that's totally fine
<persia> If there is a bug, the bug in the changelog is good.  For a Debian merge or UEHS update, no point to a bug if it doesn't already exist and one is pushing a branch.
<dholbach> you'd write the same in the bug report anyway
<maco> persia: k so the tendency i had to only file a bug once i had a patch ready to hand to a sponsor... that would no longer require filing a bug?
<dholbach> not if you use distributed development
<persia> maco: You may either file a bug or push a branch and request a merge.  Both show up on the sponsoring report.
<dholbach> but still document as good as you can :)
<maco> neat
<dholbach> when you use bzr and distributed development, you can easily do a   bzr commit --fixes lp:123456   to link it
<maco> though rawr ive only been at this a year-ish and im already behind the times
<dholbach> (if this bug exists)
 * persia tends to put the bugs in the changelog, and then use debcommit to automate the --fixes bit
<dholbach> maco: I think everybody's figuring out how best to make use of UDD (ubuntu distributed development) right now
 * maco does like persia
<dholbach> persia: yes, that works as well :)
<jk-> dholbach, persia, maco: awesome, thanks for the info, i owe you guys a beer :)
<dholbach> (I've been working a lot on non-distro things in the last few weeks :-))
<dholbach> jk-: no worries
<persia> If it's not clear to anyone: there are almost no "right answers", as long as you find something that 1) works for you, and 2) complies with policy, and 3) happens to match others workflows.
<maco> persia: you know whats fun (not really)? this mess:  bzr-buildpackage -S -- -sa -v####
<dholbach> as you can see it was very useful to talk about these questions :)
<dholbach> maco: I'd move the "-S" behind the "--"
<dholbach> bzr bd -- -S -sa -v<version>
<persia> Why -sa?
<maco> persia: i was merging fromd debian
 * persia actively avoids using -sa *except* when cleaning up after other folks
<dholbach> persia: if you need to upload a new upstream tarball?
<maco> where there was a new upstream release
<persia> Still shouldn't need -sa
<maco> well buildpackage was Not Happy when i didnt use it
<maco> though that couldve been because i forgot -v too
<persia> dholbach: It will auto-include it if it thinks it's warranted.
<dholbach> persia: if you have 1.2-1ubuntu1 in Ubuntu and merge 2.4-5 from Debian?
<dholbach> oh nice
<maco> i was flailing about today trying to remember how to merge
<persia> RIght, that's clearly a new upstream, so you get a new tarball.
<dholbach> persia: and it includes the -sa magically?
<maco> persia: so my forgetting -v is why it wanted me to -sa?
<persia> It only fails when the versions aren't sufficiently different, or you need to push a new tarball to clean up after some mess.
<dholbach> maco: the two are unrelated
<maco> hrmph
<persia> maco: Yes, because you didn't scope it correctly.
<dholbach> gotcha
<dholbach> do you all have any more questions? anything that was unclear in the explanations right now?
 * maco looks back and forth from persia to dholbach
<persia> dholbach: If the upload version and the prior version have different upsteam versions, yep.
 * maco wishes you'd agree a bit
<dholbach> maybe somebody of the shy people (not jk- and gotunandan :-)) who are just lurking here?
<dholbach> persia: great
<dholbach> maco: I filed bug 576242
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 576242 in ubuntu-sponsoring "Everything is "unseeded"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/576242
<persia> maco: It is the dynamic cooperative disagreement that is central to the process of arriving towards a flexible set of working practices :)
<maco> dholbach: it *is* possible that one of those very rare times when the main sponsors are more efficient than the universe sponsors happened
<maco> (yes i know old names)
<dholbach> maco: no, I think it's more a problem with the packagesets in maverick
<persia> It's a bug.
<dholbach> any more questions? anything else you wondered about? anything else that seems broken? :)
<maco> how many uploads do you have to sponsor before you get a pony?
<maco> </jorge>
<dholbach> I don't know, but you get a lot of people liking you for reviewing their stuff :)
<dholbach> any more questions?
<ajmitch> how do we be a rock star? :)
<dholbach> ajmitch: you of all should know!
<arand_> (Don't have a system in fron of me, so general question): I find that I struggle quite a bit when i try to update a package with new [insert scm] versions. If I don't have an orig.tar.gz, is there any general guidelines on how to get to the point where ther is one, whilst still reusing the old diff.gz (possible?)
<maco> scm?
<ajmitch> source control
<arand_> git/svn/whathaveyou
<maco> pristine-tar?
<ajmitch> generally there'll be ways of exporting it, such as 'svn export', or possibly 'make dist' for an automake project
<ajmitch> whatevr way suits the project best, you'll want to have a get-orig-source target in debian/rules so that it can be automated by others
<dholbach> ./configure <---> && make dist    (if available) should give you a tarball
<dholbach> and something like   svn export   should make sure you don't have revision control meta data in your tarball
<dholbach> I hope that one fine day in the future we stop caring about tarballs and just use branches for everything :)
<maco> what does "bzr-buildpackage --split" do?
<dholbach> until then, the above will make sense :)
<maco> it says Automatically create an .orig.tar.gz from a full source branch.
<maco> dholbach:  does that do what arand_ is asking for?
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<arand_> The autogen.sh I've seen around (with no configure), should one just run that and then "make dist" In those cases?
<persia> arand_: All those alternatives aside, you should encourage any upsteam to produce some release archive (.tgz, .tar.bz2, .zip, whatever) when they do a release.
<dholbach> arand_: that sounds like a good bet
<maco> arand_: autogen.sh, in my experience, generates the configure
<dholbach> maco: yes, that should work if they use bzr (or one has set up a launchpad import of some other revision control branch)
<arand_> Does the autogen not also run the configure normally?
<maco> dholbach: idea for next UOW:  UDD
<ajmitch> yes please
<dholbach> arand_: I've seen it do so, but I wouldn't rely on it
<dholbach> arand_: best read what it does - they're usually quite small
<dholbach> maco: james_w has been running them for every UDW and a few UOWs too
<dholbach> ajmitch: there should be heaps of logs :)
<arand_> Anyway, it appears as though "make dist" was the link I was missing in general
<arand_> Thanks
<dholbach> glad that works :)
<maco> dholbach: oh in that case i need to pay more attention :P
<dholbach> maco: but yeah, I guess we need to raise the profile of UDD
<dholbach> I just learned about   bzr lp-open   a few weeks back
<ajmitch> dholbach: yeah, it'll be a matter of finding & reading, like much of the documentation around
<ajmitch> a few weeks? I learnt about it today
<dholbach> ajmitch: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Previous
<ajmitch> thanks
<dholbach> de rien
<maco> if the goal is for that to be the way things are done moving forward, seems it ought to be whats given to new contribs off the bat
<imbrandon> bzr lp-open ?
<dholbach> imbrandon: will open the launchpad page of the branch in a browser :)
<persia> There's a sufficiency of folks that prefer the non-bzr method that we'll probably end up supporting both for a very long time.
<dholbach> so if you want to submit a merge proposal, that makes it easy
<persia> (especially for the die-hard git folk)
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> ok, any more questions?
<dholbach> ok... in that case best ask your questions in #ubuntu-packaging or #ubuntu-motu later on!
<dholbach> have a great day everybody and thanks for all your questions and answers
<dholbach> you guys rock!
<ajmitch> thank you dholbach
<arand_> Thanks for the session!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<gotunandan> j/ignore #ubuntu-classroom +JOINS +PARTS +QUITS
<patouxas> hi
<patouxas> is anybody here?
<patouxas> koukou
<nhandler> Hello patouxas, can I help you with something?
<andy__> @IdleOne here too :)
<Picajoso> anyone here?
<astraljava> Picajoso: Lots of people, as you can probably see. Sesssions will begin shortly, please be patient.
<Picajoso> Ups. I saw no updates, and didn't know if everything was fine.
<astraljava> Kernel Q+A beginning in 10 minutes.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Kernel Q+A - Instructor: apw || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> Good Morning!
<akgraner> apw and ogasawara  will be fielding the Kernel Questions today
<akgraner> if you all are ready - talk it away!
 * ogasawara waves
 * apw waves hello
<ogasawara> thanks akgraner
<ogasawara> Hi Everyone!
<ogasawara> Welcome to the Kernel Q&A (question and answer) session.
<ogasawara> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I'm a member of the Canonical Kernel Team.
<ogasawara> I'm here with Andy Whitcroft and other members of the team to field any questions that you may have about the Ubuntu Kernel.
<ogasawara> Please remember to post your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix them with "QUESTION:".
<ogasawara> We'll try to answer them as best we can.
<ogasawara> Let's get started!  Does anyone have any questions?
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: What does mean "to field the Kernel Questions"?
<ogasawara> bullgard4: we're here to just answer any questions you may have regarding the Ubuntu Kernel
<ogasawara> akgraner: next
<ClassBot> Resno asked: How does the Ubuntu kernel measure up against other distros?
<apw> our key aim is to be as close to mainline as possible, so we offer the freshest offering we can
<apw> at the time of release.
<apw> in addition we are always striving to cover the most common hardware as seen in systems
<apw> regular people will buy.  to be a friendly and easy to use
<apw> pretty similar to what other community distributions are trying to achieve
<apw> akgraner, next
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: /etc/init.d/unmountfs produces a message: "Unmounting weak filesystems." What are 'weak filesystems?' Those filesystems that have been mounted to /|/proc|/dev|/.dev|/dev/pts|/dev/shm|/dev/.static/dev|/proc/*|/sys|/lib/init/rw)?
<apw> that sounds like a userspace message, not a designation i have seen used in the kernel before
<apw> we'll have to look into that and try and get back to you
<apw> akgraner, next
<ClassBot> popey asked: Testing kernels sounds hard and might cuase problems for my system, how can you make it easier for me to test new kernels, and can I be happy that I wont break my production machine?
<ogasawara> popey: great question.  I've actually been leveraging testdrive to do a lot of my testing.
<ogasawara> popey: I don't have the link off the top of my head
<ogasawara> akgraner: next
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: '~$ ps -ef | grep flush; root       252     2  0 May05 ?        00:00:00 [flush-8:0]' What process spawns this process? Where is described the function of this process?
<apw> those processes are spawed by the kernel itself to handle flushing of block devices within the kernel, they are there to provide process
<apw> contexts where needed.  they are tripped by fsync and similar calls to perform data-writes.  they are relativly new and may not appear before kucid
<apw> lucid
<apw> akgraner, next
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Apparently the upstream Linux developers will support the version of Linux that 10.04 is using for three years, however since 10.04 is LTS, that means Ubuntu developers will probably have to support it on their own for  the last two years when it comes to the server. By then it will probably be rather secure, but surely it would be better if 10.04 started to then use an upstream version of the kernel, but no security
<akgraner>  updates only?
<apw> ok there are a couple of strands here
<apw> firstly we normally only do security updates at the later stages of support for a kernel so the change is minimal at these ages
<apw> however, as there is synergy [sic] between the distros on v2.6.32 there is a strong likelyhood there will be longer
<apw> term support for that release from the stable tree than there is normally
<apw> secondly we are introducing backported kernels for servers on the 10.04 LTS.  here we will pull back kerenls from Maverick a
<apw> and later to the LTS for use on servers
<apw> akgraner, next
<ClassBot> Odd-rationale asked: Does the Ubuntu kernel use a pae enabled kernel by default? If not, why not?
<apw> by default we only install a PAE kernel where the machine has sufficient ram to warrent the use of it.
<apw> for machines with less memory there is no benefit to be had from using a PAE kernel in general and there is a minimal cost
<apw> to enabling PAE.  as we have to have a non-PAE kernel currently for the older hardware which does not support this, it is used where sensible.
<apw> akgraner, next :)
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: '~$ ps -ef | grep flush; root       252     2  0 May05 ?        00:00:00 [flush-8:0]' What process spawns this process? Where is described the function of this process?
<apw> akgraner, that one is a duplicate
<ogasawara> I think apw answered this already
<jcastro> sorry
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I like how Resno called it the Ubuntu kernel.  Well when Ubuntu developers are supporting the 10.04 kernel on their own (unless they can convince upstream developers to support it for longer) then really it is a fork of the Linux kernel?
<jcastro> I took over
<jcastro> did you guys answer this one?
<apw> jcastro, thats new
<jcastro> ok, proceed! :)
<ogasawara> sebsebseb: I actually wouldn't consider it a fork.  the key bits to note is we do closely follow the upstream kernel as much as we can.
<jcastro> he says you answered that question when you answered the last one
<ClassBot> ZykoticK9 asked: I have heard that Ubuntu submits fewer upstream kernel bugs then some other much smaller distros.  Is this accurate?  Are steps being taken to submit more bugs, regarding the kernel, upstream?
<apw> yeah this is probabally true.  the kernel team in general is pretty small in Ubuntu
<apw> we can and should be moving more of our bugs upstream as we find they are not things we introduced
<apw> we use mainline kernel testing heavily to determine this and when we find that we are not the
<apw> cause of the issue, we should be pushing bugs to the kernel bugzilla
<apw> this is one area in which community help is much appreciated.
<apw> when triaging bugs in the early phases we often find things are 'affecting mainline' and those helping with triage
<apw> would be in a good position to help detect these and push them up.
<apw> launchapd provides great integration once they are upstream
<apw> and cirtainly in my experience moving them up to bugzilla often gets good responce from the mainline kernel developers
<apw> who frankly hate their code to be broken
<apw> our main drive is to increase the triage team to aid this process
<apw> and they should encourage the reportrs to push them upstream as the developers often want direct testing help
<apw> jcastro, next
<ClassBot> popey asked: Using testdrive is great for testing stuff, but how much of the kernel testing is needed on bare metal? Is testdrive sufficient for most tests?
<ogasawara> popey: obviously testing on bare metal is great, so say using a liveusb to test is something else to use.
<ogasawara> popey: we've also started generating custom kernel iso's for testing.  we've been taking them to linux fest type conferences to wider testing as well.
<ogasawara> popey: but for those wanting to just fire up a vm and test, testdrive is sufficient
<ogasawara> akgraner: next
<ClassBot> popey asked: I'm not a coder, what can I do to help make kernels better?
<ogasawara> popey: I love this question.
<ogasawara> popey: there's many places to contribute that don't involve writing code.
<ogasawara> popey: like you've pointed out, we can always use help testing kernels, triaging bugs, or even cleaning up docs.
<ogasawara> popey: we're always willing to mentor someone and get them pointed in the direction that scratches their itch
<ogasawara> popey: come find us in #ubuntu-kernel and we'll get you going
<ogasawara> akgraner, jcastro: next
<ClassBot> popey asked: If there was a magic bullet you could get from the community which would help you guys/gals do your job, what would it be?
<apw> i think the short answer is more help
<apw> we are a small team and we have a heap of work to do
<apw> people helping with trigaing is always going to help there
<apw> also helping out on bug days ... we always need more bugs hugged
<apw> we are going to have a specific Community session at UDS to dicsuss
<apw> how we can better reach out to _you_ the community and help you get involved in _your_ kernel
<apw> that will be open to remote and local participation for those who would like to contribute ideas
<apw> jcastro, next pls
<ClassBot> JanC__ asked: are those special kernel testing ISOs available somewhere publicly?
<apw> they are meant to be being rebuilt nightly, that process seems to be broken at the moment
<apw> but expect to see an announcement when they are ready for consumption
<apw> jcastro, next
<ClassBot> jcastro asked: Tell us about the mainline PPA builds
<apw> the mainline PPA builds are a little bit of a misnomer.  they are actually an archive of all of the
<apw> mainline kernel snapshots we have build installable .deb's for.
<apw> these are both daily snapshots of the upstream trees such as Linus' mainline tree.  plus the officially tagged releases
<apw> such as v2.6.32.
<apw> they represent totally unmodified source for those kernels but built using an Ubuntu compatible kernel configuration
<apw> these are primarily used to find out where problems were introduced or where they may be fixed
<apw> for example if our latest 10.04 LTS kernel is based on 2.6.32.11 then we can try that version to confirm
<apw> that the Ubuntu changes are not the cause of the issue.  we can use the latest v2.6.34-rcN kerenls to confirm
<apw> if the issues are fixed in upstream mainline
<apw> this in turn allows us to isolate potential fixes more quickly
<apw> jcastro, next
<ClassBot> LibertyZero asked: Are there any plans to switch to another scheduler like BFS in the (near) future?
<apw> generally we look to follow upstream recommendations on such things
<apw> so if there are more than one version of a particular piece of functionality
<apw> as there is with the allocator we generally will select the recommended version upstream over the others
<apw> in the case of BFS the patches are not in the kernel as yet so that is not even on our radar as an option
<apw> new functionality and options tend to appear on our radar when they enter the kernel and are interesting (as BTRFS has recently)
<apw> of course this does not stop people building their own kernels with different options and offereing them in a PPA
<apw> of course those come with no warrently ... you get to keep both bits
<apw> jcastro, next :)
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: I got a message: "An automatic file system check (fsck) of the root filesystem failed. The fsck should be performed in maintenance mode with the root filesystem in read-only mode." Can you explain the term 'maintenance mode' please
<jcastro> Not really kernel related but I guess you guys are closest to cover this area. :)
<apw> maintenance mode is essentially a different boot mode wherein only the very minimum of
<apw> services are started.  normally for a filesystem check the disk in question will not even be mounted read-write
<apw> so normal operation is not possible.  this keeps the fsck process safe from interferance while it sorts out the issues found in the filesystem
<apw> a good thing generally.
<apw> maintenance mode is typically somewhere you end up when this sort of failure occurs
<apw> normally you don't have to try and get there yourself, but booting into single user is pretty close
<apw> jcastro, next
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: What is the status of ext4 performance issues in general and the recent issue of forced syncs for umount?
<apw> there has been a lot of talk about how ext4 is now slow ... this should be taken in the context
<apw> of it still being significantly faster than ext3 has ever been.
<apw> yes fixing some correctness issues and working round bad userspace applications has
<apw> contributed to a reduction in ext4 performance from its height, but correctness is always the right
<apw> path.
<apw> the recent forced unmount performance issues seem to be fallout from another change probabally in the quota
<apw> system, which removed a forced sync there.  we actually have patches in test right now which may well sort out the
<apw> underlying issue for lucid and upstream they have a rework in progress to fix it completely for all filesystems
<apw> jcastro, next
<jcastro> no questions right now
<jcastro> so why don't you tell us what you plan to do for Maverick!
<ogasawara> heh, well most of what will be happening in Maverick will be discussed next week at UDS
<ogasawara> but we know for sure that since it's following an LTS release, it's going to be radical and a huge jump in terms of kernel version
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: My Dell 1012 freezes sometimes and even sysrq REISUB doesn't work, with nothing in /var/log.  How can I get more debugging info to provide good bug reports and figure out if it is kernel, xorg, etc?
<ogasawara> nealmcb: well, there's a couple of things to test.  Is this a recent regression?  ie. if you revert to a previous kernel, does it begin to work.  that's usually a good indicator.
<ogasawara> nealmcb: how reproducible is the issue?
<ogasawara> nealmcb: can you trigger on demand
<ogasawara> nealmcb: you could possibly try to use a serial console to get at the logs
<ogasawara> nealmcb: could be a temp/overheat issue. . .
<apw> nealmcb, thats probabally one to bring and discuss on the #ubuntu-kernel channel as we have lots of ideas mostly mad :)
<ogasawara> heh, exactly
<ogasawara> jcastro: next
<ClassBot> Odd-rationale asked: Maybe this is taking a lttile away from the next session, but how does the default kernle differ from the server kernel? or is there a difference at all?
<apw> the main difference is focus for the kernel.  the desktop kernel is more tuned for interactive use
<apw> the server kernel is more aligned with server needs.  this means we tend to use a different disk
<apw> scheduler algorithm, often the scheduling tick is slower as we care less about gettting to a user
<apw> qucikly and more about getting stuff done
<apw> there have been less and less differences recently as the kernel has gotten better at
<apw> self tuning.
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<apw> the other difference is that we support the server kernle for longer
<apw> jcastro, next
<ClassBot> Odd-rationale asked: can you tell us a little about kerneloops? how it works and how it is integrated with Ubuntu?
<apw> kerneloops is a post processor for kernel panics and dumps
<apw> it pulls out the kernel stack trace for the incident and pushes it to the kerneloops.org site
<apw> this allows the site to work out which kernel issues are most prevalent and possibly associate those with
<apw> specific kernel versions or even with specific builds by specific distributions
<apw> in ubuntu the kerneloops submissions are triggered directly from apport when it is about to report those
<apw> same traces back to LaunchPad
<apw> jcastro, next
<jcastro> waiting on questions
<apw> almost perfect timing :)
<apw> jcastro, you have one now :)
<ClassBot> ogasawara asked: Where can I reach members of the Ubuntu Kernel Team if I have more questions?
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ogasawara> so I'm talking to myself :) but  We usually hang out on FreeNode in the #ubuntu-kernel channel.
<ogasawara> Our team spans a wide range of timezones so chances are good that one of us will be online.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> we can also be found at kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<ogasawara> but the mailing list is more for technical discussion (ie patches etc).  Not to gripe about bugs :)
<ogasawara> jcastro: next
<ogasawara> prolly last one as we're nearing the end of our session
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Do you have any good links to generic Ubuntu kernel debugging help pages? :)
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase#Debugging has some general debugging tips
<apw> as we are running out of time, we'd just like to thank you all for your
<apw> interesting and detailed techinical questions ...
<apw> it cirtainly was entertaining
<apw> hope to see you in #ubuntu-kernel
<ogasawara> thanks everyone!
 * ogasawara hand it off to the server team
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Server Q & A - Instructors: zul, smoser || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks everyone!
<jcastro> zul, ok, introduce yourself and take it away!
<zul> Hi, Im Chuck Short from the Canonical server team, and today we will be doing a server q+a
<zul> and im here with other members of the team who are going to help out
<zul> like smoser
<smoser> hello
<zul> so if you want to ask questions please fire away
<zul> so smoser why dont you explain what you do
<smoser> OK.
<smoser> My biggest reponsibility is the ubuntu enterprise cloud images (UEC)
<smoser> We create 'ready-to-run' images for UEC or for EC2.
<smoser> other than that, I generally help out with server bugs, features and the ubuntu platform.
<smoser> I apologize if that was too exciting a description
<zul> as smoser I generally help out with server bugs, features, and the ubuntu platofrm as well
<zul> so does anyone have any questions?
<zul> well to get the ball rolling
<ClassBot> zul asked: what are your plans for maverick?
<smoser> That was directed at me ? i presume ?
<zul> both of us
<smoser> you first
<smoser> OK.  I'll go.
<smoser> This week and last we've been working on putting together plans (blueprints) for what we'd like to work on for Maverick
<smoser> That list of things can be seen at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?role=approver
<smoser> Next week, at UDS we'll discuss these with other members of the Ubuntu Server team and the larger Ubuntu community in general.
<smoser> many of the sessions are brainstorm centric while others will have more concrete discussions ready to go
<smoser> This is a better link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?searchtext=server-maverick-
<zul> i hope you get involved with us next week as well
<ClassBot> leonel asked: any plans to include a light webserver for VPS ? like  www.cherokee-project.org
<smoser> if you're unfamiliar with UDS, please read up.  At this point if you weren't already planning on going, you're probably not going to be there physically
<smoser> however, the IS team does an *outstanding* job of making remote-attendence via IRC with streaming audio possible.
<zul> leonel: yes we will be discussing at UDS a more lightweigh webserver
<ClassBot> leonel asked: I mean in main
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Do you have some demos that anyone with an Amazon or Eucalyptus cloud account could run to demonstrate the cool cloud features in Lucid?
<smoser> nealmcb, I don't have an explicit demo at all.
<smoser> Maybe thats something I should try to put together.
<smoser> zul authored most of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EC2StartersGuide
<smoser> which walks you through getting an instance booted on EC2.
<smoser> Once you're there and in, I have to say there isn't much terribly exciting about the "base image".
<smoser> Everything that you can do with it revolves around it being basically Ubuntu server.
<smoser> whatever you can imagine for ubuntu server, you can do on EC2 or UEC in an instance.
<smoser> One interesting thing that differs between "standard server" and EC2/UEC images is cloud-init
<smoser> at http://ubuntu-smoser.blogspot.com/ i wrote a blog entry about what you can do with cloud-init
<smoser> Theres more to document there, but that might get you started.
<smoser> next question ?
<ClassBot> zul asked: whats the difference between EC2 and UEC?
<zul> thanks zul would you like to take this one smoser?
<smoser> UEC is "Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud".  This is a cloud offering from Ubuntu based on Eucalyptus.
<smoser> It allows you to run a "private cloud" inside your lab (on your own hardware) that is API compatible with EC2's public cloud.
<smoser> This might be desireable for development, or places where data is highly sensitive.
<smoser> oh, one other thing, the UEC installation is present right in the ubuntu server CDs.
<smoser> so it is *very* trivial to set up a UEC cloud if you have 2 or more hardware systems (with VT extensions) systems to play with.
<smoser> next question.
<ClassBot> Softwareexplorer asked: I once tried to get a postfix/ dovecott email server working on jaunty. When I finally got it, I had no clue what I did right. Part of the problem was that none of the ubuntu wiki pages said how to use the postfix-dovecot package and just told how to set it up the old way. When I wanted to set up an email server on 10.04, I had no idea how to do it again. Is there the possibility of someone writing a wik
<zul> Softwareexplorer: there should be some documentation in the ubuntu server guide at https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/index.html
<zul> its written by the community by adam sommer so if there is a feature missing it please file a bug in launchpad
<zul> next question
<ClassBot> Softwareexplorer asked: What kind of hardware requirements are there to run UEC just to try it out? How hard is it to set up?
<zul> i think this one up your alley smoser
<smoser> Softwareexplorer, hardware requirements are 2 physical systems. Each probably needs 2G of ram, and 1 of which must have VT extensions
<smoser> vt extensions are present in just about any hardware desktop or server created in the past 3 years or so.
<smoser> if you've got amd64 hardware, most likely you have them especially if its amd, not intel.
<smoser> you can check to ake sure with the 'kvm-ok' command.
<smoser> Once you've got the hardware, the software setup is quite trivial
<smoser> the CD install (or from USB) has an option to "install UEC cloud"
<smoser> and you simply select one system as the Cloud Controller, and one as a Node.
<smoser> after installation of both systems the cloud will be ready to go.
 * smoser is searching for link
<smoser> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/CDInstall .should get you started.
<smoser> that covers 9.10, but mostly the same.
<smoser> Softwareexplorer, is that a reasonable answer?
<ClassBot> zul asked: How can I get the UEC and EC2 images?
<smoser> zul, the UEC is available as part of the ubuntu server.
<smoser> the easiest way to install it is definitely to do a fresh install from an ISO or USB key and select the "Install UEC".
<smoser> The EC2 Images can be run on EC2 or on UEC.
<smoser> more information is available at http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/releases/lucid/release/
<smoser> That will give you EC2 commands to launch the instances as well as their AMI ids.
<smoser> For UEC, you can download the ".tar.gz" files there and register them with "uec-publish-tarball" on your installed cloud.
<smoser> next question
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Our server blog at http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/ can help get our messages out - how can we encourage more posts there, or are there other venues?
<zul> good question i would ask you to contact mathiaz on #ubuntu-server.
<zul> most of the ubuntu server developers obviously hang out on #ubuntu-server
<zul> next question
<zul> we have weekly meetings as well on #ubuntu-meeting where users and developers can raise issues that they find.
<zul> they are on tuesdays now
<zul> we also do a lot of backporting to LTS releases such as hardy because alot of our userbase still use the LTS on their servers
<zul> any other question?
<ClassBot> mdeslaur asked: Any plans on integrating enterprise groupware software?
<zul> mdeslaur: yes we do have a session next week at UDS to include into universe packages such as sogo and zafara
<zul> sogo being a calendar groupware server and zafara is a microsoft exchange like product
<zul> next question
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Will there be a session at UDS on how to better market the great server offerings and how to stimulate more community involvement on the server side?
<zul> nealmcb: yes there should be a session at UDS for getting more people involved
<zul> alot of our users are sys admins so we need a way to draw in our users to the community
<zul> next question
<ClassBot> JanC__ asked: I thought Postfix was supposed to be the default mailserver on Ubuntu, but I hear from several people that they got Exim installed (probably through some dependencies?) -- what's the current policy about this?
<zul> postfix is the default mail server in main, but yes you can use other mail servers such as exim since they are packaged in universe
<zul> next question
<zul> so a couple of sessions we are having at UDS are things like how we can integrate things like puppet in a configuration management system
<zul> another session would be how we can get better support for Alfresco in ubuntu
<zul> we also to get better integration with software such as nagios and munin as well but these sessions will all be discussed at UDS next week with the community's participation
<zul> an interesting project we had last release in lucid was server-papercuts
<zul> the idea behind this is that the users can nominate small things that they find annoiying in ubuntu-server and have them nominated to be fixed in lucid.
<zul> we are going to be continuing this in maverick as well
<ClassBot> JanC__ asked: what I meant is that "by default" apparently some packages pull in Exim instead of Postfix?  shouldn't they pull in postfix if they need an MTA and no other one was installed by the admin?
<zul> JanC_: well yes obviously that is a bug in my opinon and it should be fixed
<zul> next question
<zul> if any :)
<zul> another feature we are lookig at for maverick is web 2.0 workloads
<zul> sites like facebook and linkedin are pretty big at the momment and we would like to get better support for them in ubuntu
<zul> so we are also having a session on that at UDS next week as well
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: I heard about some performance issues with some server loads on ext4.  Are there times ext3 would be better?d
<zul> nealmcb: i heard that as well bug I havent seen any benchmarks myself, I do believe there is a bug open about it launchpad
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg/+bug/570805
<smoser> i'm not completely suited to answer this question. but, as I understand it, basically fsync is much more expensive for ext4.
<smoser> workloads that made extensive use of that call would see performance loss
<smoser> but i'm very much glossing over that.
<smoser> sorry i couldn't be more help.
<smoser> next question?
<zul> smoser: so what plans do you have for cloud-init
<smoser> to make it better :)
<smoser> the overall goal of cloud-init
<smoser> and other utilities that we put into the cloud images is to make them very friendly to use in the cloud
<smoser> last cycle focused on getting hooks in early  in the boot cycle, so that, via "user-data", you can control much of the initial boot of the instance, and make it do your bidding.
<smoser> we will probably continue refining that, but will be adding other function to make the instances "cloud friendly"
<smoser> one thing that has been brought up is "ebs-mount" from the turnkey images folks.
<smoser> this will allow you to take automated action on connection of an ebs volume (if so configured).
<smoser> next question
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Often we advise folks to wait to upgrade their existing servers until the .1 release.  When might 10.04.1 come out?
<zul> nealmcb: according to the maverick release schedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule) july 29th
<zul> alot of the SRU (stable release updates) that we are working on right now will be included in the point release
<zul> so yes for server we usually recomend and wait for the point release
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<zul> SRU is the process where we backport bugs that are already fixed in the development release, in this case maverick to the stable release, in this case either hardy or lucid
<zul> so if you find a bug with for example PHP we try to get it fixed in maverick first and depending how hard it is to get it fixed for lucid we usually backport the patch
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: What's new in the Java world for Ubuntu?  In Lucid or coming up in Maverick?
<zul> for java we are looking at better integration with things like maven and possibly jboss, you'll have to be at UDS next week to find out since we will have a session about that as well
<zul> next question
<zul> i guess we have like 6 minutes until the next session does anyone else want to ask a question?
<zul> ill give you a cookie if you do ;)
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<zul> well if you dont smoser and I can be usually found on irc
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: How can people help test server stuff on different hardware?
<smoser> indeed.
<zul> nealmcb: it depends on how much help we get at the release time, you can help test ISO when they are released at the iso tracker at http://qa.iso.ubuntu.com
 * zul gives nealmcb a cookie!
<zul> on real hardware I dont know off the top of my head, most of the testing is done on qemu-kvm
<zul> any more questions?
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Can I get two cookies served up with cloud-like frosting integration? :)
<zul> only if you file a blueprint
<zul> :)
<zul> well thanks everyone for coming
<smoser> there will be plenty of cookies at UDS.
<zul> and beer
<smoser> Please, for anyone interested in participating, please do.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Working on Bug Reports (aka Triage Class) - Instructor: pedro_ || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pedro_> That was a great session! thanks zul and smoser ;-)
<pedro_> Alright folks, My name is Pedro Villavicencio Garrido and I'm the guy behind the Ubuntu Desktop bugs
<pedro_> Today i'll talk about How to work with Bug reports, either Reporting or Triaging those
<pedro_> The bugs on Ubuntu are tracked on a BTS called Launchpad, which i think you might know already
<pedro_> If you want to report a bug we recommend to use the 'ubuntu-bug' tool
<pedro_> Until Lucid there was a menu item in the Help menu called "Report a problem"
<pedro_> it was removed and now it can only be used on the development release
<pedro_> so don't panic if you don't find it
<pedro_> alright so how to use ubuntu-bug ?
<pedro_> it's pretty easy, what you need is to open a terminal and type :
<pedro_> ubuntu-bug <package name>
<pedro_> ie: ubuntu-bug gnome-panel
<pedro_> if you do it, you'll see a new window appearing into your desktop
<pedro_> with some "Apport is collecting information" message
<pedro_> and then you need to just follow the steps of the application to open the new bug report
<pedro_> but what if you don't really know the name of the package ?
<pedro_> you can also pass to ubuntu-bug the Process ID
<pedro_> as: ubuntu-bug 12345
<pedro_> and then again, the apport window will show up
<pedro_> finding the right package name might be tricky sometimes
<pedro_> that's why we have the  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage guide
<pedro_> if the guide doesn't help you, you're more than welcome to stop by the #ubuntu-bugs channel and ask there
<pedro_> there's plenty of people willing to help
<pedro_> it's also important to describe the bug the better you can
<pedro_> if you put as a title something like "does not work"
<pedro_> or "i don't know"
<pedro_> well if you don't know, we might not know either ;-)
<pedro_> so it's really, really important to describe everything the best you can
<pedro_> there's an amazing guide which might help you with that: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
<pedro_> and it's translated to several languages and i'm sure it applies to every BTS in the world ;-)
<pedro_> you'll make a lot of QA people happy if you follow that guide , trust me ;-)
<pedro_> For more information on how to report bugs in Ubuntu, please use the guide located at :  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<pedro_> and again , if you have questions #ubuntu-bugs is the perfect place
<pedro_> Ok so we have our bug filed in Ubuntu, what's next?
<pedro_> who deal with those reports?
<pedro_> There's a team called the Ubuntu BugSquad
<pedro_> The BugSquad is the first point of contact for the bugs filed about Ubuntu, we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by the Developers
<pedro_> that process is called "Triage"
<pedro_> Working with the BugSquad it's an amazing way to start helping and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
<pedro_> You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team, in fact it's a great way to return something to our Lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
<pedro_> Our points of contacts are:
<pedro_> #ubuntu-bugs here in Freenode
<pedro_> our mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
<pedro_> and of couse the lp team page https://launchpad.net/~bugsquad
<pedro_> there's only a few requirements to join the team
<pedro_> * Sign the Code of Conduct
<pedro_> * Read the Triage Guide - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/
<pedro_> * Subscribe to our mailing list
<pedro_> that's everything you need to join us
<pedro_> Let's talk about Bug Triage
<pedro_> The Bug Triage is an essential part of Ubuntu's development and consists in :
<pedro_> * Respond to the New bugs as they are filed in our BTS
<pedro_> * Ensure that New bugs have all the necessary information
<pedro_> * Assign bugs to the proper package
<pedro_> A *big* portion of the bugs we have to deal with are not assigned to the right package or even not assigned to any
<pedro_> so it's really important you choose one when filing a new bug on Ubuntu
<pedro_> to give you an idea , here's is a list of new bugs without a package: http://is.gd/bWXr8
<pedro_> there's a lot of bugs there that need to be reassigned to the proper package, if you have time and want to help us, well consider in join the BugSquad ;-)
<pedro_> * Confirming the reports by trying to reproduce them
<pedro_> this is also important and please remember to not confirm your own reports
<pedro_> if you think it's easy to reproduce, well describe the issue the best you can in the bug report itself , someone else will follow your steps and confirm it
<pedro_> if no one does it for a few days, you're welcome to join #ubuntu-bugs and ask there
<pedro_> we also:
<pedro_> * Set priorities to bug reports
<pedro_> * Search and mark bugs as duplicates
<pedro_> * Send the bugs upstream when applicable
<pedro_> and we have a nice guide for that here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream
<pedro_> with most of the Upstream BTS out there, GNOME, Mozilla, OpenOffice, Debian, etc
<pedro_> if you think we're missing one, please tell us, so we can create the documentation with your help
<pedro_> we do Cross reference of bugs from others distributions
<pedro_> and Expire the old bugs
<pedro_> All of these activities help the bug report to get fixed and subsequently making Ubuntu even better
<pedro_> If you have done enough Triage work, you can apply to the Ubuntu BugControl team
<pedro_> which is the one with more rights over the reports in Ubuntu
<pedro_> basically you can see the Private reports
<pedro_> Change the importance of the Bugs
<pedro_> and set a couple of status (Triaged, Won't Fix)
<pedro_> the requirements to join the team are available at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<pedro_> and the launchpad team page is: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
<pedro_> We encourage everyone who wants to join the Ubuntu BugSquad team to also join our BugSquad Mentoring Program
<pedro_> which is the perfect to make your way trough the Triage world and it will help you to join the Ubuntu BugControl team in a more prepared fashion
<pedro_> instructions on how to join? : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
<ClassBot> optix asked: Can someone become an Ubuntu member by doing Triage work?
<pedro_> optix, to answer your question... YES! , several of our members are Ubuntu Members and they 'win' the privilege of becoming one by also doing lot of Triage work
<ClassBot> Pendulum asked: How much time commitment does the bug squad require?
<pedro_> Pendulum, I'd say between 15 and 20 minutes per day is enough to start
<pedro_> Pendulum, if you join the Mentoring Program you can set up a schedule with your Mentor and discuss how much time you can spend on the triage work
<pedro_> Pendulum, we care more about quality of work rather than volume ;-)
<pedro_> we do prefer someone who triages 1 bug in a good way, rather than someone doing crazy things on 50 :-P
<ClassBot> mistrynitesh asked: Sometimes it so happens that being technically challenged, I do basic work like finding right package, requesting more information for incomplete reports etc. but can't proceed much ahead. What do you suggest should I do in these cases so that the bug gets triaged?
<pedro_> the next step is to talk to the Maintainers/Developers of that package/program
<pedro_> it's all about communication, raise the issue with the developers and for sure they're going to look over that problem
<pedro_> Let's talk briefly about Bug Status
<pedro_> since you're able to change some of them without any special rights
<pedro_> We currently have 9 status, they are: New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix.
<pedro_> New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed the report.
<pedro_> don't mix it with the meaning on Bugzilla
<pedro_> The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information
<pedro_> like the steps to reproduce the bug
<pedro_> The Invalid  status should be used when the bug report does not contain adequate information to determine whether or not it is a bug even if it is resolved for the reporter. Be careful when you set this status, when a bug has the invalid status it will no longer show up in default searches.
<pedro_> Confirmed  status is almost self explanatory; someone other than the reporter has experienced the same bug.
<pedro_> (remember to not confirm your own reports)
<pedro_> The Triaged status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fixing the issue
<pedro_> f a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer has started working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as In Progress
<pedro_> this status sometimes creates confussion
<pedro_> In Progress is not the same as Incomplete
<pedro_> We've seen some people changing the status to In Progress when they are asked for more information
<pedro_> as in "I'm searching for the files in my desktop so I'm going to set this to In Progress while i'm doing that"
<pedro_> no no, that's a mistake do not do that, the status should remain as Incomplete
<pedro_> If a developer has committed a fix to a bzr branch or to another repository the report needs to be marked as Fix Committed
<pedro_> And when that amazing Fix is released (available on an official Ubuntu repository) the status of that bug reports needs to be changed to Fix Released
<pedro_> There's also Importances in the Reports, basically the importance of the bug signifies the priority that it should be given by people fixing bugs
<pedro_> we don't have enough time to explain those though, but the documentation is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
<ClassBot> bdrung_ asked: An upstream developer is doing triaging work in Ubuntu, but he can't set all statuses and see private bugs. What should he do to archive these rights? should he join the bugsquad for just one package?
<pedro_> nice question!
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pedro_> they need to join the Ubuntu BugControl team, the Upstream developers are really important to us, so if you're an upstream developers and you don't have the rights to look are you bugs in Launchpad just ping any of the Ubuntu BugControl admins either by IRC or email and we'll add you to the team
<pedro_> did you ever hear about The Ubuntu Bug Day?
<pedro_> Once a week the BugSquad organize an event called "Ubuntu Bug Day" or Hug day (Triage a bug win a hug!)
<pedro_> The idea of a hug day is to work together with the BugSquad and project maintainers to focus our collective effort on a specific task
<pedro_> Bug days are perfect to start working on the Bugsquad and giving back some love to your lovely Ubuntu project
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/
<pedro_> we do have a lot of people contributing to those, let me show you some stats
<pedro_> on 2009:
<pedro_> 3262 bugs were triaged during bug days
<pedro_> 37 bug days were organized
<pedro_> 119 contributors participated on bug days
<pedro_> if you want to do some bug work but don't know where to focus, well bug days are perfect for that ;-)
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> mistrynitesh asked: When the bug is fixed in upstream, what should it be marked as?
<pedro_> the task should remain as Triaged but we do treat those as an special case on the desktop bugs
<pedro_> setting those as Fix Committed until we find a better way to deal with the upstream status in Launchpad
<pedro_> the problem is that there's no way to easy see in the launchpad bug list which bug is fixed or not upstream
<pedro_> that's something we'd like to discuss at UDS with the launchpad team though ;-)
<pedro_> you're all welcome to join us
<pedro_> ok that's all from here folks, again if you have a question #ubuntu-bugs and our mailing list are the best for those . Thanks for attending!
<akgraner> Hi all!
<akgraner> [slide 1]
<akgraner> Hi everyone!   I'm Amber Graner or akgraner on IRC.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Women - Instructor: akgraner - Slides: http://is.gd/bXdDy || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> Slides for Ubuntu Women: http://frylock.redvoodoo.org/~akgraner/Ubuntu_Women_Session_Open_Week_Lucid.pdf
<akgraner> I'll be using slides today - so if you want to follow along please do :-)
<akgraner> just to make sure slide one is up
<akgraner> [slide 1]
<akgraner> this is my 1st open week session I am leading
<akgraner> so please be patient with me :-)
<akgraner> so who am I?
<akgraner> Currently I am the Ubuntu Women Project Leader.
<akgraner> However I also wear a couple other hats in the Ubuntu Community as well  - I recently became the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter â Editor-in-Chief and I am active on NC LoCo Team, and helper to jcastro and crew for open week.
<akgraner> I have a blog called You-In-Ubuntu on www.ubuntu-user.com and contribute to the new Ubuntu User Magazine as well
<akgraner> That's probably more information than anyone really wanted to know about me :-D
<akgraner> So lets get started -
<akgraner> [slide 2]
<akgraner> oday  I want to talk and share with you a few aspects of the Ubuntu Women Project.
<akgraner> This talk is about the following:
<akgraner> What is the Ubuntu Women Project?
<akgraner> Current initiatives
<akgraner> Why Participation is important
<akgraner> Review Lucid (10.04) Goals
<akgraner> Preview Meerkat (10.10) Goals
<akgraner> How you can help!
<akgraner> And once we get through this and if there is time we'll have some  Q & A
<akgraner> (please let me know if I am going to fast to slow etc)
<akgraner> [slide 3]
<akgraner> I also wanted to state up front what this talk is NOT â
<akgraner> A debate on if women/chix/girlz groups are needed
<akgraner> (they are, enough said)
<akgraner> A debate on Feminism
<akgraner> (there is nothing to debate â we believe equality is a good thing)
<akgraner> A debate on Sexism (what it is or if it exists)
<akgraner> (It still exists!)
<akgraner> while there are places to discuss those things it's not the focus of today's session
<akgraner> [slide 4]
<akgraner> so what is the Ubuntu Women Project
<akgraner> Melissa Draper (elky) make a great business card that sums up âelevator pitchâ style what Ubuntu Women is all about.
<akgraner> Encouraging Women to use and contribute to Ubuntu
<akgraner> But how the how is what we we talk about a little later in the session
<akgraner> [slide 5]
<akgraner> I highlighted UWP as I often refer to the project with either UW or UWP. So if I do that today you will know what I am referring to.
<akgraner> Just a little history about the project  - The project was founded in 2006 by Vid Ayer, then others quickly joined.  In 2007 Elizabeth Krumbach (pleia2) was instrumental in getting all the pieces and parts (mailing list, forums, irc, and website) joined together for one collaborative Ubuntu Women Project working together under shared common goals.
<akgraner> since 2007 there have been many more outstanding team members  and contributors
<akgraner> [slide 6]
<akgraner> The most important and key word here is  - TEAM.
<akgraner>  Teams are known by their devotion to teamwork rather than individual achievement and the Ubuntu Women Project has a talented, skilled, resourceful, knowledgeable team supporting it that is just amazingly awesome!
<akgraner> While no one is doubting how powerful a statement  the words foster, contributors,  involvement, mentoring, inspiration, projects, boost visibility, women, all, Ubuntu, invite,help, exciting, social, and  rewarding are â none of the stuff the Project does would be possible without the dedicated efforts of the TEAM
<akgraner> [slide 7]
<akgraner> The question now in my mind is how does the Project Accomplish those things listed above.
<akgraner> Let's take a look at some of the ways-
<akgraner> [slide 8]
<akgraner> we do so with the following
<akgraner> Current Initiatives include
<akgraner> 1st Annual Ubuntu Women International Women's Day Competition
<akgraner> 1st Annual Ubuntu Women World Play Day Competition
<akgraner> We are finding great sponsors for these competitions, believe in the merit and worth of the Ubuntu Women Project as much as the team members themselves.
<akgraner> Also we try to involve the whole community in the competitions by asking the whole community to take part in voting and not only that but, we ask Jono Bacon, our Ubuntu Community Manager to take part as well.  By doing this we are illustrating that we are and will continue to find ways to encourage women by encouraging and relying upon inclusive community participation.
<akgraner> Through these competitions the Ubuntu Women Project  helps increase the visibility of women and girls who use and contribute to Ubuntu.
<akgraner> Remember the focus in on encouraging women to use and contribute to Ubuntu by mentoring, retaining, inspiring, as well as increasing the visibility of women in the Ubuntu Community through an inclusive, inviting, rewarding, social, and exciting team
<akgraner> [slide 9]
<akgraner> So the UW International Women's Day Competition was new this year to the team and we were able to celebrate and see how many women in the Ubuntu Community discovered Ubuntu in the âHow I discovered Ubuntuâ story submissions.
<akgraner> All the stories were great â and illustrate that each of us (female/male) discover things in very different ways.
<akgraner> If you haven't had a chance to read those stories yet, take a moment and go to: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Events/Competitions/InternationalWomensDay/HowIDiscoveredUbuntu?action=show&redirect=InternationalWomensDay/HowIDiscoveredUbuntu
<akgraner> And many thanks again to all those sent in stories, voted, and those who later read them and are encouraged by them.  Remember this WILL be an annual event :-)
<akgraner> [slide 10]
<akgraner> 1st Annual Ubuntu Women World Play Day Competition
<akgraner> Haven't heard of this yet then visit: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Events/Competitions/WorldPlayDay
<akgraner> (as I make of note to advertise these better if you haven't heard of it yet)
<akgraner> Basically  -
<akgraner> "We would love to have a collection of examples of young girls (toddlers through to 12 years old) playing with -- and loving, and being encouraged to pursue -- Ubuntu. This would allow parents of girls to demonstrate that it really is ok to be intrigued by the shiny screens, blinking lights, tappity-tap of keyboards, and faint whirs of computer fans."
<akgraner> This competition is currently underway.  Do you know of a girl ages 2-12 that uses Ubuntu?
<akgraner> Have they submitted a photo?  If so thanks!  If not there are only a few days left to get them submitted.
<akgraner> All entries must be submitted no later than 2359UTC 14th May 2010  Good Luck!
<akgraner> Remember those great sponsors I was talking about a minute ago â Many thanks have to go to  Canonical, Linux Pro, Ubuntu Use, private contributors, and most especially ZaReason for their generous netbook and USB necklace which by the way will go to the community choice winner of the competition.
<akgraner> Ubuntu User I meant
<akgraner> Again  - community participation  - ZaReason is an Ubuntu based Business and we want to help promote those businesses as well.
<akgraner> [slide 11]
<akgraner> this slide is all about some of our printable resources
<akgraner> We also have many talent team members who contribute unselfishly to out resources page.
<akgraner> s/out/our
<akgraner> It is always helpful when giving talks, conferences, fest etc to have material about a project you can share with others.   This is some of those resources.
<akgraner> I never thought I would be the âposter childâ for a women's group  - but someone (elky) thought it was a good idea.
<akgraner> Here are some other folks who helped with these resources:
<akgraner> Original Logo by: Troy Sobotka
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Project Poster and
<akgraner> Business Cards by: Melissa Draper
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Project Flier by:
<akgraner> Elizabeth Krumbach and Nuhaa All Bakry
<akgraner> and as you can see it is a collaborative effort on the part of many - which is fantastic
<akgraner> We are always looking for more new and creative resources to help get the word out about the project. - Got an idea lets hear it.
<akgraner> At then end of this session there will be a list of ways to get in touch with the team.
<akgraner> [slide 12]
<akgraner> The translation efforts have taken off like wildfire but we still need some more help in translating our wiki pages.
<akgraner> currently there are
<akgraner> 39 Languages
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Project Wiki PagesTranslations have started in
<akgraner> 4 Languages to date: Brazilian Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish
<akgraner> the Goal
<akgraner> That all women in the Ubuntu Community have access and opportunity to read, use, and contribute to the Ubuntu Women Project Wikis and do so in their own language
<akgraner> For more information on UW translation needs please see: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/PagesNeedingTranslated
<akgraner> [slide 13]
<akgraner> Mentoring
<akgraner> The Ubuntu-Women Mentors program allows new Ubuntu contributors to work together with experienced developers, translators, documentation writers, testers, and other skilled contributors.
<akgraner> GOAL
<akgraner> to encourage women and newcomers in Ubuntu to increase participation and contribute to tasks where they have no experience and are willing to learn.
<akgraner> (notice we are not exclusive on who we mentor  - we are inclusive and as such open to all)
<akgraner> We are Building on the Motto of:
<akgraner> Each-One-Teach-One
<akgraner> As you will see in just a few slides we are re-vamping and re-organizing this program  - but our end goals remail the same.  Are you currently a mentor in the Ubuntu or FOSS communities?  Are you and ubuntu women team member looking for a mentor if so let us know.
<akgraner> #ubuntu-women-project on IRC.
<akgraner> s/and/an
<akgraner> [slide 14]
<akgraner> This slide is just a illustration of how participation spiked various reasons after UDS-L and that spike in energy, participation, excitement is what helps the team accomplish the goals of the project.
<akgraner> [slide 15]
<akgraner> This slide shows the rise in people joining our launchpad team which is currently how we track registered team members,  the spikes also line up with participation.
<akgraner> [slide 16]
<akgraner> UDS-L was the 1st UDS where the Ubuntu Women Project had a series of sessions dedicated to the success and effectiveness of the Project in the Ubuntu Community
<akgraner> Since it was founded in 2006 participation and growth have continued
<akgraner> and in 2009 - serious planning for each cycle started to take shape
<akgraner> with roadmaps, blueprints, and recognition in the great FOSS communities
<ClassBot> maco asked: what is the slide 14 a graph of? It says "number of attendees", but what is meant by attendees? Attendees to what?
<akgraner> ahh - sorry - the attendees are people who attended the Ubuntu Women Project IRC Meetings
<akgraner> the monthly Team meetings
<akgraner> (thanks for the question I'll fix the slide :-D )
<akgraner> So what were those goals for the Lucid cycle?
<akgraner> We had 3 Initial Goals which came out of UDS-L
<akgraner> 1. Clarify the purpose of the #ubuntu-women channel
<akgraner> 2. Create a safe (for lack of better word at the time of planning) space IRC channel
<akgraner> 3. Appoint a leader of the Ubuntu Women team, complete with codified expectations around the role
<akgraner> and as a team we accomplished all of these goals during the Lucid cycle
<akgraner> For more information on the UDS_L Goals please go to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Roadmaps/Lucid/UbuntuWomen
<akgraner> With UDS-M taking place next week  - we are looking forward to those goals
<akgraner> [slide 17]
<akgraner> Project Goals For Maverick:
<akgraner> While I will list all of our ambitions the are only a few that will go on the blueprint
<akgraner> the next one being one of them
<akgraner> Elections
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Team to Elect New Leaders
<akgraner> Community
<akgraner> Enrollment
<akgraner> Online Team Activity
<akgraner> Community Activity/Event
<akgraner>  
<akgraner> Mentoring Program
<akgraner> For Community  - we are going to focus on the mentoring program
<akgraner> and if we accomplish this community goal we can add the others as needed
<akgraner> Marketing and Resources
<akgraner> This area is where most of our goals for the Maverick cycle will come from
<akgraner> Re-design Ubuntu-Women.com website
<akgraner>  
<akgraner> Re-design Ubuntu Women Logo
<akgraner> Ubuntu-women clothing
<akgraner> Presentation at UDS -M -Ubuntu membership stats
<akgraner> Ubuntu-Women Clothing is the only item under Marketing and resources that will not be listed on the Blueprint
<akgraner> (however if someone wants to design a few things then go for it :-D)
<akgraner> [slide 18]
<akgraner> How Can you help?
<akgraner> (Good question! - Glad you asked)
<akgraner> Help Translate Ubuntu Women Wiki Pages
<akgraner> Encourage Women in your LoCo Teams to get involved
<akgraner> Ask Ubuntu Women Team Members to speak about the project to your Team/Group/Project
<akgraner> Do you mentor in other areas of the Ubuntu Community â sign up become a mentor for the Ubuntu Women Project as well
<akgraner> Invite Ubuntu Women Team members to speak at conferences/fests/etc
<akgraner> (and not about the project specifically but about what they do for Open Source
<akgraner> Help with Competitions â Know about a Competition that would work well with the goals of the team â suggest it.
<akgraner> but that is just the tip of the iceberg - those are those things which at then end of this session you can go and do if you wanted :-)  (shameless hint there)
<akgraner> [slide 19]
<akgraner> Where you can find out more about the Ubuntu Women Project
<akgraner> we have a few resources/tools
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Website - http://www.ubuntu-women.org/
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women IRC Channels on Freenode.net
<akgraner> #ubuntu-women and #ubuntu-women-project
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Mailing List - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Women
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Forum
<akgraner> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=76
<akgraner> as well as
<akgraner> Ubuntu Women Team in Launchpad
<akgraner> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-women
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> are there any questions?
<akgraner> if not
<akgraner> [slide 19]
<akgraner> Thank You!
<akgraner> if you want to yak with me in future then I can be found
<akgraner> IRC nick â akgraner
<akgraner> Email: akgraner [ a t ] ubuntu [ d o t ] com
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmberGraner
<akgraner> <johnc4510> akgraner: you seem to be very well organized. Maybe you could give us a little background on yourself that would give us some insight on how you do it.
<akgraner> I think I just don't know any better :-)
<akgraner> nah
<akgraner> I am a busy mom with 2 teenagers and a husband who's job has *always* caused him to travel for the last 18 years
<akgraner> and running an efficient household  - you have to be organizer  (though I fall short a lot but I try )
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> I try to plan my day looking forward  the night before
<akgraner> housework in the mornings - ubuntu stuff til the kids get home
<akgraner> I think the Army also had something to do with planning - there was a motto there  - poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine
<akgraner> so I try to plan
<akgraner> QUESTION: what can be done to bring and encourage women to Ubuntu/Linux
<akgraner> good question  - there is a lot that can be done - and there is no one way to do it
<akgraner> I would say act locally think globally - meaning look in your "backyard" and those folks and what is happening around you and what their interest are
<akgraner> but keep your eye on the bigger FOSS picture to see where people can get involved there as well
<akgraner> Thanks everybody
<akgraner> you all rock!
<akgraner> If I didn't answer you pop into #ubuntu-women-project
<akgraner> and ask away
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Loco Council Q&A - Instructors: czajkowski, leogg || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<czajkowski> Aloha ! I'm Laura Czajkowski one of 6 members on the loco council. Todays session with the help of leogg is going to be a general Q&A  session on the loco council what we do and how we can help you all.
<czajkowski> If you've any Questions please ask and we'll do our best to try and answer them for you.
<czajkowski> Firstly the loco council is made up of 6 members and we meet monthly and process team approvals and re approvals.
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil
<czajkowski> we're elected to help teams should they need any guidance
<czajkowski> or run into difficulty.
<czajkowski> we're often asked to mediate situations within teams and also to help run ideas past .
<czajkowski> Any questions so far?
<czajkowski> Does everyone know about the loco council ?
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: I encounter a lot of teams who complain that their LoCo team is "too big" to really be "local" - how does the LoCo Council recommend we respond to this? What can we do to help folks who feel this way?
<czajkowski> QUESTION: I encounter a lot of teams who complain that their LoCo team is "too big" to really be "local" - how does the LoCo Council recommend we respond to this?  What can we do to help folks who feel this way?
<czajkowski> just because a team is named as a loco doesnt mean all your activities have to happen in one place. Meetings, events, talks whatever you run are best run under one umbrella
<czajkowski> that;s a great way to utilise the mailing list
<czajkowski> the wiki and website and if you use twitter/identi.ca
<czajkowski> QUESTION: why are there no non ubuntu (e.g. kubuntu) approved LoCos? Is there a chance that there will be a non ubuntu LoCo and if not why?
<czajkowski> I've never heard of these before to be honest. I'm sure if someone tabled a discussion we could look into it
<czajkowski> Ubuntu is a massive communtiy
<czajkowski> which welcomes all variations under the umbrella
<czajkowski> so I'd say have events under the one team and spread the word that way
<paultag> <Luyza> QUESTION: How does Ubuntu feel about people recommending other distros to people at a Loco meeting? And/or talking about other distros (for example, on a slow day, when there aren't many Ubuntu-specific questions)
<czajkowski> that's not really a LoCo council question, but healthy discussion is good and it's about choice and showing how open source works, obviously if it's an Ubuntu event we'd like to showcase ~Ubuntu at these events
<czajkowski> so moving onto more LocO council issues
<czajkowski> we have the Approval Process
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamApprovalGuidelines
<czajkowski> Teams can apply for approval and create a wiki
<czajkowski> many have done this and have been approved
<czajkowski> some have issues - DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN MAIL US ASKING FOR US TO GO THROUGH YOUR APPLICATION BEFORE THE MEETING
<czajkowski> this would help both the team and meeting time wise
<czajkowski> many teams do not use this facility
<czajkowski> we can give you pointers
<czajkowski> photos of events are worth a thousand words on an application
<czajkowski> every team after 2 years will now go through a procedure called Re Approval process
<czajkowski> same thing, you attend an IRC meeting, once a wiki has been created and we look at the work the team has done over a 2 year period
<czajkowski> this is a new thing and was only started in karmic cycle
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<czajkowski> this is just to help teams who may have lost their footing along the way
<czajkowski> and who were once active we can give them a helping hand
<czajkowski> how it was done on the last cycle was 30 teams were randomly picked who were over 2 years were accessed
<czajkowski> QUESTION: I am a bit confused about the re-approval process is this for every one or just teams that LP membership is about to expire?
<czajkowski> It's for offical approved teams
<czajkowski> does that make sense??
<czajkowski> So team reports
<czajkowski> team reports really should be done by all teams,
<czajkowski> if you have an irc meeting, a meet up, talk, gathering, hold an event
<czajkowski> write it down in the monthly report
<czajkowski> this is a great way for you to keep track of your events for your approval or re approval
<czajkowski> Many teams are not doing reports :( this makes us sad
<czajkowski> it's also a way for us to see what teams may need help. if for months they've run events and all of a sudden stop, they we can see if we can help them
<czajkowski> I've started to run - well one so far a LoCo health check. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoHealthCheck
<czajkowski> so it's another chance to meet the loco council and ask questions that maybe you don't know or want more details on.
<czajkowski> I'll also hopefully be asking members of other development teams in to do a Q&A session to encourage more discussion betweetn community and other areas
<czajkowski> Any questions?
<czajkowski> 20:18 < MarkDude> QUESTION: problem solving with locos, leaders members, etc?  How does it work?
<czajkowski> at times in the past, we've had members of teams mail us with issues regarding loco team leaders
<czajkowski> we've listened to them
<czajkowski> and then we contact the team leader and see how we can fix the issue
<czajkowski> in some cases for example, it could be a case of the team leader having left the team and not said anything which makes running the team more difficult
<czajkowski> in other cases it could be a case of people just not working together with one another
<czajkowski> we try and mediate
<czajkowski> 20:20 < mhall119> QUESTION: How are things decided within the LC?  Is is majority rule, consensus?  How is deliberation done?
<czajkowski> we chat really, and work on things via email and irc.
<czajkowski> I'm rather new at this :) I'm on the council since November and since then we've worked on things as a team. we discuss items back and forth. Coming to an outome
<czajkowski> I think paultag itnet7_lernid would agree with that
<czajkowski> we do split items up
<czajkowski> I don't speak Spanish for example and if a team mails us in Spanish, someone would reply to them in Spanish and in English
<czajkowski> we share the workload
<czajkowski> Any other Questions/thoughts/Comments
<czajkowski> MarkDude: did that make sense?
<czajkowski> I would hope if teams had issues with team leaders they did try and solve it before they came to us,
<czajkowski> but I've no problem in helping anyone if they need it
<czajkowski> there is also the leadership code of conduct
<czajkowski> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct
<czajkowski> 20:24 < mhall119> QUESTION: Besides team reapprovals, what plans does the LC have for the Maveric cycle?
<czajkowski> ohhhh good question!
<czajkowski> I really want to work on getting feedback from community to canonical in a more productive manner hence why I've started the health check, which the wiki needs some love on
<czajkowski> I'd like to help teams help themselves before it gets to the point of internal conflict so setting some basic guidelines
<czajkowski> what teams should do to helpthemselves
<czajkowski> 1) monthly meetings - publish the results on the wiki and on mailing list
<czajkowski> 2) share duties, rotate roles
<czajkowski> a really good idea is also internal mentoring, showing other people how to do things
<itnet7> Definitely
<czajkowski> there is no point in you being the only admin on the mailing list , if you go away, nobody else knows what to do or how to do it
<czajkowski> so these kinda of things help teams to do some basic house keeping
<czajkowski> Sharing roles within the team is advisable
<itnet7> We have been having a lot of diverse issues lately, so we are trying to work through them and proactively show others how to avoid these issues
<czajkowski> do not have 1-2 team in charge of any one job if at all possible, have more!
<czajkowski> if you have one admin on wiki/mailing list/website then you're doing something wrong
<czajkowski> you can quote me on that!
<czajkowski> 20:29 < mhall119> QUESTION: I've been involved in the loco directory, what other tools can be made to help locos?
<czajkowski> mhall119: you and others have done a great job on the loco directory
<czajkowski> I wrote back when I met keffie_jayx_ at UDS Karmic about a feature where we create an event, then mail that to the teams. I still think that would be great
<czajkowski> I think we need to get teams to use it fully, then do a feedback session at some point
<czajkowski> what would you like to see the LC do to help you
<czajkowski> There are 6 of us. Surely we can help you and your teams
<czajkowski>  mhall119> QUESTION: I'm not sure if you've been involved or not, but status.net has setup a domain for Ubuntu locoteams, what are the plans for that?
<czajkowski> I've not been involved in it
<czajkowski> is it closed source ?
<czajkowski> possibly if folks want us to use it, asking for input would be good, if there is a session at UDS I'm sure we'll take part in it if we can
<czajkowski> ANy other thoughts?
<czajkowski> Did you know you can email us at any time,
<czajkowski> we are on IRC but not all of us run screen sessions
<czajkowski> please be patient if you do mail us , 3 of us are in the EU, the others are in the states and south america, so allow for time zones
<czajkowski> again if status.net is open source, and folks want us to use it I'm sure we could look into it.
<czajkowski> QUESTION: What communication/interaction does the LC have with Canonical?
<czajkowski> SOmetimes people mail jono re issues when they could just as easily mail us before hand or may not know about mailing is. this is fine. WE look into the issues and keep jono updated of teams and issues
<czajkowski> so we do mail canonical folks when we need answers or issues come to light
<czajkowski> canonical folks are very helpful and offer help when we need it
<paultag> Ubuntu and Canonical are no longer as strongly tied as they used to be -- That's why Mark Shuttleworth stepped down as CEO of Canonical, and as czajkowski said, they are very helpful and willing to aid Ubuntu :)
<czajkowski> mhall119> QUESTION: How about regular communication?  Does the LC report on community activities/health so that they know what's going on?
<czajkowski> There was a time when there were no reports going to the UWN - I've tried to rectify that
<czajkowski> and post the outcomes of the meetings to the mailing list
<czajkowski> again if we're pushing for loco teams to do reports
<czajkowski> we need to lead by example
<itnet7> Monthly reports are very important, they motivate new teams
<itnet7> and encourage everyone
<czajkowski> they also give other teams ides on events to run
<czajkowski> Anything else?
<czajkowski> less than 15 mins left?
<czajkowski> itnet7: paultag any other comments
<paultag> I think you've covered it quite well czajkowski :)
<itnet7> I think it's important for everyone to note that the LC is here for all of you, if you have any issue and would like for us to weigh in please ping us in ubuntu-locoteams
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil we have also this cycle made a massive effort to get our pages trasnlated
<czajkowski> if you can help here that'd be great
<paultag> QUESTION: what we need to be an approved loco team? (i mean what we should do with community, instead of getting approved on wiki)
<czajkowski> You can reach the council via mail: loco-council<at>lists.ubuntu.com
<czajkowski> yltsrc: run events, meet ups, spread the Ubuntu word
<czajkowski> document these things, take photos
<czajkowski> run an Ubuntu hour
<czajkowski> which is meeting up with other team memebrs
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<czajkowski> yltsrc: if you need a hand do let us know
<czajkowski> So teams use twitter/facebook/identi.ca this is fine, using the ububtu logo is fine in this case as we had an issue yesterday where a team leader said it was not ok
<czajkowski> it is
<czajkowski> yltsrc> QUESTION: where i can read about usual loco processes (in team) and howto manage loco successfully?
<czajkowski> yltsrc: this is something I hope to work on for the next cycle
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<paultag> can you hone in on what aspect yltsrc?
<czajkowski> yltsrc> QUESTION: and where i do start? :)
<czajkowski> yltsrc: where are you from ??
<czajkowski> yltsrc: I'll give you a hand after this session and help you set up if you like
<czajkowski> finally - http://loco.ubuntu.com/
<czajkowski> loco directory
<czajkowski> please use it and give feedback to the developers!
<czajkowski> it's GREAT!
<czajkowski> ok that's it folks
<czajkowski> thanks for taking part
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<akgraner> Great Session!
<akgraner> Thank you czajkowski itnet7 et all! :-)
<akgraner> That concludes Open Week for today
<akgraner> Hope to see everyone back at 1500 UTC tomorrow :-)
<qwebirc70664> ..
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-07
<Venture> Hello
<Venture> a bit quiet in here
<sebsebseb> Venture: very much so
<Venture> always like this?
<sebsebseb> Venture: no
<Venture> i see
<sebsebseb> just no sessions going on at the moment
<Venture> sessions?
<sebsebseb> !openweek
<ubottu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for schedules, logs, and instructions.
<Venture> they really have classes in here?
<sebsebseb> that factoid is wrong
<sebsebseb> open week is this week
<sebsebseb> plus this channel will get used for other stuff as well
<sebsebseb> yes go on the link
<sebsebseb> !logs
<ubottu> For Ubuntu Classroom logs, please visit http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<Venture> i will check it out
<sebsebseb> Venture: yes they really have classes in here, and then people ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and such when one is going on
<Venture> thats pretty cool
<qwebirc59883> a
<jcastro> 1 hour until the last day begins!
<effie_jayx> o/
<jrib> where's the pie? I was promised pie
<cjohnston> 3 minutes
<akgraner> dholbach is up 1t with a 2 hour session on Introduction to Ubuntu Development  - :-)
<akgraner> 1st even
<cjohnston> hey akgraner
<akgraner> hey cjohnston
<cjohnston> here it goes
<dholbach> HELLO EVERYBODY! WELCOME TO THE LAST DAY OF UBUNTU OPEN WEEK! :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development I - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> I have the pleasure of talking a bit about Ubuntu Development today. I hope you're excited as I am and have a good bunch of questions. :-)
<dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, live in Berlin, work for Canonical and was always excited about our fantastic community and how I was welcomed into it and how everybody helped me get started working on my first packages. :)
<dholbach> for those of you who haven't been to Ubuntu Open Week yet: please make sure you join #ubuntu-classroom-chat too
<dholbach> and ask your questions in there
<dholbach> please prefix them with QUESTION:
<dholbach> ie: QUESTION: What is jcastro's cat called?
<dholbach> Alright, let's get cracking :)
<ClassBot> Kusa14 asked: If we use lernid it's automatic?
<dholbach> yes, if you use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid (a great way to follow Ubuntu Open Week and other events in here), it's all automatic :)
<dholbach> let's start with a few myths I try to clear up regularly :)
<dholbach> first one and probably most popular one: "you need to be a hardcore hacker"
<dholbach> regularly people who want to get involved with Ubuntu Development ask which programming languages they need to know to help
<dholbach> and if 5 years of C, C++, Perl, Python, C#, PHP, etc. was enough
<dholbach> my answer is: if you do know how to program in a language, that's great and it'll help you a lot and we have lots of bugs you can help to fix, but we also have a lot of bugs that you can help out fixing if you have these skills:
<dholbach>  - some patience
<dholbach>  - unafraid of a bit of documentaiton
<dholbach>  - be a team player
<dholbach>  - knack for making things work again
<dholbach> so if you don't know 10 programming languages for 5 years yet, don't despair :)
<dholbach> next popular myth: "you need to own a package"
<dholbach> untrue
<dholbach> nobody owns packages in Ubuntu, we maintain all packages as a big team
<dholbach> there will always be people who have more experience with a specific piece of software than others and they will be something like "de-facto maintainers"
<dholbach> but they don't have a gigantic lock on the package and will stop you from contributing to it
<dholbach> so if you don't "have a package" or "maintain a package", that's totally fine
<dholbach> we have a lot of people who are all-rounders and enjoy fixing heaps of bugs that simply occur to them
<dholbach> also you don't need to "package something new" first thing, it's a lot better to start working on an existing package, improve it slowly - you'll find a lot more instant gratification this way :)
<ClassBot> yltsrc asked: some people complain that maintainers don't accept changes or working on the same bug, how we can improve this situation?
<dholbach> yltsrc: good question - we have the sponsorship process which I'll take some time to explain in a bit
<dholbach> yltsrc: basically the answer is: we have a "separate queue" where patches, branches, etc. go that is reviewed regularly by everybody
<dholbach> I guess it could always be quicker, but it's working quite OK at the moment
<dholbach> as I said - I'll definitely get back to it
<dholbach> another myth I'd like to clear up is "you need a mentor"
<dholbach> some new contributors are frantically looking for a mentor and think that they can't get started without one
<dholbach> that's not true
<dholbach> while there's some developers that have close bonds to new contributors and who mentor them, it's not as if the mentor allows you to do something which you otherwise couldn't do :)
<dholbach> you'll find a lot of very helpful people along the way who have been in a similar situation as you've been, and they'll be glad to help out
<dholbach> it needs a bit of courage in the beginning, but it's totally worth it and I promise you a fun ride :)
<dholbach> alright... that's the myths I heard recently - if you have any more questions or crazy stories you'd like to share about what you've heard is required, let me know in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<dholbach> there are a couple of requirements we do have though
<dholbach> so the bad news is: you need to run the current development release (maverick now)
<dholbach> the good news is: there is sane ways to do it, so you don't end up in break-o-rama
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains how
<dholbach> this page explains how you can use a virtual machine for example
<dholbach> or how to set up a chroot, or ubuntu in a separate partition or something else
<dholbach> it's important that if you work on the current development release, that you can test-build and test the packages you are working on
<dholbach> there's no replacement for testing
<dholbach> I said before that you can always get help easily
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted is the only page you need to bookmark :)
<dholbach> it links to all the pieces of documentation that make a good night-time read and explain what're doing over here
<dholbach> #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net are full of incredibly helpful people who want to see you get involved and succeed in what you want to do
<dholbach> so make sure you hang out there and ask your questions :)
<dholbach> you'll also make a lot of friend there easily
<dholbach> there's also the ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list where you can ask questions "offline"
<dholbach> any questions up until now?
<dholbach> either everybody's sleeping or I didn't confuse everybody... yet
<dholbach> hopefully the latter
<dholbach> alright - let's get started setting up a development environment
<dholbach> if you don't have a maverick vm or installation around, that's totally fine now - you can just repeat the steps in the vm later on
<dholbach> first of all, we need to tell apt that we want to have access to source packages every now and then
<dholbach> for that please do this:
<dholbach>   System â Administration â Software Sources â Ubuntu Software â Enable "Sources"
<dholbach> you can also edit  /etc/apt/sources.list  and add  deb-src  entries (mimicking the  deb  entries you have there)
<dholbach> if you do it manually, make sure you run   sudo apt-get update   later on
<dholbach> once you're done with that, please install a few packages we're going to need during this session
<dholbach>    sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends ubuntu-dev-tools build-essential pbuilder gnupg debhelper
<dholbach> (if I go too quick or don't make sense or "it doesn't work", please let me know)
<dholbach> ok... what are we installing right now?
<dholbach>  - ubuntu-dev-tools: very useful set of scripts that help with ubuntu development (also this pulls in stuff like devscripts), these packages will be your bread-and-butter
<dholbach>  - build-essential: will pull in the essential tools to build software in general (it will pull in the compiler and all kinds of other stuff)
<dholbach>  - pbuilder: build tool that automatically sets up a minimal environment in which packages are compiled in a clean and sane manner
<dholbach>  - gnupg: used to sign/encrypt messages and files
<dholbach>  - debhelper: set of tools that automate common tasks during the build (like process manpages, compress files, etc.) of the package
<dholbach> ok, with that done, let's set up a gpg key
<dholbach> if you already have one set up, you can skip this step, lay back, relax and get another cup of tea :)
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>   gpg --gen-key
<dholbach> it will ask you a bunch of questions, and it's safe to go with the defaults
<dholbach> (just hit enteR)
<dholbach> what it needs is your name and at least one email address
<dholbach> (the comment is not necessary)
<ClassBot> optix asked: my gpg key is 12 years old at 1024 bit encryption -- is that still good?
<dholbach> optix: I personally would keep it, but I'm sure there's others who disagree :)
<dholbach> optix: I once saw a "gpg key transition" document somewhere, but I can't find it right now
<dholbach> at least for us there is no strict requirement to have XYZ bit key
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto has lots more information about how to set it up, get your mail program to make use of it, etc etc
<dholbach> you will (at some stage) need it to upload packages
<dholbach> Launchpad only accepts uploaded source packages if it can tell who uploaded them
<dholbach> for that you will sign source packages with your gpg key (it happens semi-automatically with the tools we installed above)
<dholbach> once you're done with the questions of gpg, it will sit there and do some computation and probably say that it will need more random numbers, so we'll leave it alone for now and give the machine something else to do :)
<dholbach> please start another terminal - we'll set up pbuilder now
<dholbach> please edit ~/.pbuilderrc
<dholbach> (if the file does not exist, please create it)
<dholbach> and add the following line to it
<dholbach> COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
<dholbach> then save the file
<dholbach> this will tell pbuilder that it can use packages from all components to satisfy build-time dependencies
<dholbach> now please run
<dholbach>   sudo pbuilder create
<dholbach> and it will sit there and work a bit longer to get set up
<dholbach> so while both tools are doing there job... what are we doing here?!?!?! how do those tools all work together?
<dholbach> some of you might have downloaded software in source form before
<dholbach> you usually run something like   ./configure --something; make; sudo make install   or   python ./setup.py build   or something else
<dholbach> this is exactly what happens when Debian/Ubuntu packages are built
<dholbach> we just wrap another layer of build system and description to it, so it forms the goodness we know as .deb packages
<dholbach> so you'd download a source package (which is software in source form with the added layer of debian/ubuntu packaging goodness), make changes to it, sign it, test-build it in pbuilder (pbuilder will pull in build-depencies in the chrooted, clean, minimal environment) and you get a .deb package you can test-install and test, before you upload the new source package to Launchpad
<dholbach> that's the overview over what we're doing here :)
<dholbach> now, let's configure some other tools and we should be ready to go
<dholbach> please edit ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> and add something like this to the bottom of it
<dholbach>    export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach>    export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> please use YOUR NAME and YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS :)
<dholbach> and please use the email address you gave gpg too
<dholbach> if you don't use bash, but another shall, make sure you edit the right file (zsh â ~/.zshrc I believe)
<dholbach> etc.
<dholbach> when you saved the file, please run
<dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> ok... with that done the tools should know who we are and add our name and email to changelog entries automatically, etc
<dholbach> which makes development a bit more straight-forward :-)
<dholbach> ok, if gpg is done for you, it's a good time to find out what your key id is, you're going to need it every now and then
<dholbach>   gpg --fingerprint <your email address>
<dholbach> should give you that information
<dholbach> the output for me is something like this:
<dholbach> pub   1024D/059DD5EB 2007-09-29
<dholbach>       Key fingerprint = 3E5C 0B3C ......
<dholbach> "059DD5EB" is my key id
<dholbach> now you can tell gpg to send your public key to key servers who will exchange it among themselves
<dholbach>   gpg --send-keys <key id>
<dholbach> ^ please run this command
<dholbach> your "gpg key" is split up in a public and a private part
<dholbach> it's only the public part that is sent to the keyservers and it's what others can use to identify that messages are really signed by you and nobody else, that the messages are intact, etc.
<dholbach> please also make sure that Launchpad learns about your key too
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys
<dholbach> as I said before: once Launchpad knows about you and your GPG key, it can attribute uploaded source packages to you, but you can also drive the Launchpad Bugs interface by sending signed mails
<dholbach> a quick note on uploading packages
<dholbach> (and with that I get to Sponsoring as I promised earlier :-))
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> ClassBot: 70 minutes, but I guess we can take a break at some stage. :-)
<dholbach> if you now would take any source package, modify it and upload it to Launchpad, it wouldn't get into Ubuntu just like that
<dholbach> you could set up a PPA (a Personal Package Archive) though, where you could host test packages you could share with others
<dholbach> for that you'll need the gpg key too
<dholbach> (more info on PPAs: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA)
<dholbach> now sponsoring:
<dholbach> if you have a change you desperately want to get into Ubuntu here's how to get it there:
<dholbach>  - attach the patch (or link to the new source package you built) to a bug report
<dholbach>  - subscribe the 'ubuntu-sponsors' team to the bug report
<dholbach> done
<ClassBot> bencrisford asked: If I already have a GPG key, is it easy to set up so I can use it on another machine also?
<dholbach> bencrisford: yes, you can basically just copy ~/.gnupg over
<ClassBot> effie_jayx asked: I have an old version of my key with only one email address, I have added my ubuntu.com address to it. Should I upload the new version of my key
<dholbach> effie_jayx: yes, that way the world learns about your ubuntu.com address :)
<dholbach> sponsoring is the way to get fixes in... and the great thing about it is that you get a lot of different people reviewing your stuff
<dholbach> that way you learn from a variety of people
<dholbach> and your get to know a bunch of different developers, who can later on testify about your great work when you apply for upload privileges
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> with that I think we know what the big scheme looks like
<dholbach> let's take a 5 minute break
<dholbach> then we'll take a look at a source package together :)
<dholbach> I'll go and make some tea - see you in a bit
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development II - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> ok... I'm back, tea almost ready :)
<dholbach> how was part 1? everything OK so far? anything unclear?
<dholbach> p3rg2z asks "is this session logged somewhere where I can access it later?"
<dholbach> yes, it will be linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<dholbach> and also on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> any more questions?
<dholbach> if not, let's crack on and let's see how ugly, unfair and bad packaging really is
<ClassBot> Miroslav_RS asked: What is jcastro's cat called?
<dholbach> Miroslav_RS: good one - I believe it's called Miguel :)
<dholbach> to get us in the packaging business, please run
<dholbach>   apt-get source hello-debhelper
<dholbach> (this should work if you checked this tickbox: System â Administration â Software Sources â Ubuntu Software â Enable "Sources"
<dholbach> )
<ClassBot> plod63 asked: if we have questions after we try this ourselves (sorry i know i should be doing it now but my vm isnt installing fast enough, what is the best place to ask them)?
<dholbach> plod63: #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> or ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> ok... I have three new files lying around now:
<dholbach> ello-debhelper_2.4-3.diff.gz  hello-debhelper_2.4-3.dsc  hello-debhelper_2.4.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> sorry, make that:
<dholbach> hello-debhelper_2.4-3.diff.gz  hello-debhelper_2.4-3.dsc  hello-debhelper_2.4.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> .orig.tar.gz is the file that somebody got directly from the homepage of the developers of hello
<dholbach> the .diff.gz contains changes we make to make the package build the debian/ubuntu way (the packaging)
<dholbach> and the .dsc file is a piece of text with meta data like checksums and the like
<dholbach> the three files together are what we call the "source package"
<dholbach> that's what you download to modify it and look at the source or upload to get it built in launchpad
<dholbach> recently some changes in the debian/ubuntu packaging world allow different kinds of source packages, but in essence it's "the same": unmodified upstream tarball, bunch of changes, meta-data
<dholbach> "apt-get source" (actually dpkg-source) was kind enough to unpack the tarball and apply the changes for us
<dholbach> so let's have a look what we have here
<dholbach>   cd hello-debhelper-2.4
<dholbach> if you have a look what's in the directory, you find the usually stuff you have when you compile software
<dholbach> a README file, a configure script and the like
<dholbach> what's new is the debian/ directory, which is where the packaging goes
<dholbach> it contains these files here:
<dholbach>   changelog  compat  control  copyright  rules
<dholbach> if you
<dholbach>   less debian/changelog
<dholbach> it will show you the history of the last hello-debhelper releases
<dholbach> the entries always stick to the same format:
<dholbach> <source package name> (<version>) <debian/ubuntu release>; urgency=<some urgency>
<dholbach> then some bullet points about what changed in that revision
<dholbach> then the name and email address who made the changes and the timestamp
<dholbach> <source package name> in our case is hello-debhelper
<dholbach> <version> in my case is 2.4-3
<dholbach> let's have a look at the version more closely
<dholbach> "2.4" means that 2.4 was released by the upstream developers, the software authors
<dholbach> and the "-3" means that three revisions of this version were uploaded to Debian
<dholbach> if now upstream decided to release 2.5 and I was to package it, I'd upload 2.5-0ubuntu1 to Ubuntu
<dholbach> which would mean 2.5 released upstream, 0 revisions of it in Debian, first revision in Ubuntu
<dholbach> (I hope that was clear enough :-))
<dholbach> <debian/ubuntu release> was "unstable" because that's where the debian maintainer uploaded it
<dholbach> I'd upload to "maverick" instead
<dholbach> in Ubuntu you can only upload to the current development release
<dholbach> there are ways to get packages backported or bugs fixed in <old-release>-updates, but that's side-cases :)
<dholbach> alright, I think that should be enough for debian/changelog :)
<dholbach> debian/compat is quite boring, as it merely controls the behaviour of the debhelper scripts used (more on that later), but it's safe to ignore that for now
<dholbach> debian/control is one of the heart pieces of the package, so let's have a look at it now
<ClassBot> akk asked: in "2.5-0ubuntu1" why the 1 after ubuntu?
<dholbach> akk: 2.5-0ubuntu1 means: the software authors released version 2.5, "-0" means that it wasn't introduced in Debian yet, "ubuntu1" means it's the first revision of it in Ubuntu
<dholbach> so 2.5-0ubuntu2 would be the same, but the second revision of it in Ubuntu
<dholbach> basically it's     X-YubuntuZ    for packages we decide to modify in Ubuntu (as opposed to packages we inherit as they are from Debian)
<dholbach> (and ignoring the case of native packages, which we'll ... ignore for now :-))
<dholbach> back to debian/control:
<dholbach> it always consists of at least 2 stanzas
<dholbach> first one describes the source package
<dholbach> all the following ones describe the resulting binary (.deb) packages
<dholbach> source packages can build more than one binary package
<dholbach> for example you could have a nice tool that has a massive amount of documentation
<dholbach> in that case you'd probably want to create
<dholbach>  nice-tool  and  nice-tool-doc
<dholbach> so you don't overburden people who JUST WANT THE tool :)
<dholbach> over here the source entry looks like this:
<dholbach> Source: hello-debhelper
<dholbach> Section: devel
<dholbach> Priority: extra
<dholbach> Maintainer: Santiago Vila <sanvila@debian.org>
<dholbach> Standards-Version: 3.8.3
<dholbach> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 7)
<dholbach> you define the name of the project, place it in some section (the debian policy knows all the valid sections), give it a Priority (defined in the debian policy too), you tell it who the maintainer is (as I said before that's less important in the ubuntu world), you specify the Standards-Version (version of the debian policy the package complies with) ...
<dholbach> and you mention the Build-Depends
<dholbach> this is the list of packages that are required to compile the package
<dholbach> in our case it's a very small list, it's just debhelper
<dholbach> (build-essential is always required to be there, so it doesn't need to be mentioned explicitly)
<dholbach> in the source section, you will, apart from the Build-Depends, rarely make changes
<dholbach> so let's proceed to our binary package stanza
<dholbach> the first part of it is:
<dholbach> in the source section, you will, apart from the Build-Depends, rarely make changes
<dholbach> oops
<dholbach> wrong paste :)
<dholbach> Package: hello-debhelper
<dholbach> Architecture: any
<dholbach> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}
<dholbach> the package name is defined too
<dholbach> now we specify for which architectures the package is built
<dholbach> there are two very common values for "Architecture" that regularly cause confusion :)
<dholbach> in our case it's "any"
<dholbach> which means: build this package for each and every architecture individually
<dholbach> so we'll have a different package for every architecture later on: i386, amd64, powerpc, sparc, arm, lpia, ia64, etc
<dholbach> the other very common value is "all"
<dholbach> which means: this package has no architecture-dependent bits, build it once, use same package on all architectures
<dholbach> for example if you have a couple of shell scripts in the package, or a few pictures
<dholbach> they are always going to be the same, no matter on which architecture you use the package
<dholbach> but you could also specify specific architecture where the package will be built
<dholbach> Conflicts/Replaces/Provides are set to "hello" which means that dpkg won't allow you to install the hello and hello-debhelper package at the same time (they both contain usr/bin/hello and would overwrite each other)
<dholbach> there's a lot you can do wrong with conflicts and replaces, that's why that part in the debian policy is a very good read :)
<dholbach> following that we have a short description (first line) and a long description following that
<dholbach> this is what "apt-cache show ...", synaptic and all the others will show you
<dholbach> and that for a few releases now is translatable
<dholbach> there are heaps of other settings you could make in debian/control, but I think what we see here is a good start
<dholbach> do we have any questions about these=?
<dholbach> ok, then please let me get back to versions once again, this short discussion happened in #ubuntu-classroom-chat a few moments ago
<dholbach> <plod63> how do you know if its been released in debian yet or not, should you be monitoring there first?
<dholbach> <akk> I think I was partly confused by the debian numbers starting from 0 but the ubuntu numbers starting from 1.
<dholbach> akk and plod63 ask great questions - basically it boils down to: how do Debian and Ubuntu collaborate? how is code shoved around?
<dholbach> if you have a quick look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseSchedule you will see how the Ubuntu releases are structured
<dholbach> basically every 6 months we start working on a new release, the most important packages are uploaded first that form the build-chain (compilers, linker, etc.)
<dholbach> then "we open the gates" and "sync" source packages from Debian
<dholbach> this means that for every unmodified Ubuntu package we import the new Debian package and automatically build it
<dholbach> an example:
<dholbach> let's say we have gedit 2.3-1 in Ubuntu in the old release
<dholbach> (2.3 released upstream, first revision in debian, no ubuntu changes)
<dholbach> once we opened the new release, there' 2.4-3 available in Debian now
<dholbach> (2.4 released upstream, 3 revisions in Debian)
<dholbach> then the source of 2.4-3 will be imported and automatically built for us
<dholbach> this happens until DebianImportFreeze (look at the schedule), from there on "syncs" need to be excplicitly requested
<dholbach> here's another example:
<dholbach> we have gnome-terminal 2.5-6ubuntu2 in Ubuntu and in Debian we have 2.7-3 now
<dholbach> in that case, because we have Ubuntu modifications, the source will not be automatically overwritten
<dholbach> we either need to merge changes (make sure our and Ubuntu and Debian changes are still in the new version - this would be 2.7-3ubuntu1 ok?) or decide we drop our changes and import 2.7-3 from Debian
<ClassBot> plod63 asked: so this building happens until the freeze automatically?
<dholbach> plod63: building almost always happens automatically (not when we're in pre-release freezes), here it's the import (of unmodified packages) that is automatic
<dholbach> so you can imagine that the first part of the release cycle is all about merging/syncing changes in
<dholbach> and that's usually a good opportunity to go through the list of our patches and decide if they're still worth it and make sure that they get forwarded to either Debian or upstream
<dholbach> sometimes we decide to carry our own patches, even if Debian or upstream don't like them, but we want good reasons for that
<dholbach> in all the other cases we forward those patches
<dholbach> I hope with that information the pieces now fit a bit together :)
<dholbach> ok, let's crack on: while we have a look at the rest of the package, please open another terminal and run the following
<dholbach>   sudo pbuilder build hello-debhelper_*.dsc
<dholbach> so we get at least one build done today :)
<ClassBot> deuxpi asked: how does or coordinates the merge/sync process?
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> deuxpi: all developers - usually the most important packages are merged / synced / uploaded first
<dholbach> http://merges.ubuntu.com lists packages that need a merge
<dholbach> usually the last uploader is expected to do the merge again, but if you have a quick word with them and say that you are going to do it, that's totally fine
<dholbach> just important to not duplicate work
<dholbach> now let's check out debian/copyright
<dholbach> debian/copyright usually lists:
<dholbach>  - where the source was obtained form
<dholbach>  - who has a copyright on the code
<dholbach>  - which license the code is under
<dholbach>  - who packaged it
<dholbach> it's incredibly important to get this right
<dholbach> you don't want code with an un-free license in your package or code that you are not allowed to modify, etc.
<dholbach> if packages like that get into the archive, Ubuntu as a project would get into a lot of trouble
<dholbach> luckily there's YOU who can make sure that all pieces of code are free and under a good license :)
<dholbach> and luckily there's archive admins who double-check
<dholbach> lastly, there's debian/rules
<dholbach> beside having a quite funny name this file is one of the heart pieces of the source package also
<dholbach> because it determines how the package it built
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> those of your who have looked at Makefiles before will notice that it's a Makefile too
<dholbach> it's split up into sections such as clean, build, install, etc.
<dholbach> so what you do when you run "./configure && make" or "make clean", "sudo make install", etc. is run here too
<dholbach> but run in a sane way, so you don't have millions of files written on your system :)
<dholbach> you can also see all the dh_* calls in there, that's debhelper I was referring to the whole time - extremely useful packaging tools
<dholbach> I couldn't have done packaging as a whole complete justice in these two sessions and you now only have a very quick overview of debian/rules
<dholbach> I encourage you to read the source of other source packages and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide too
<dholbach> your package should have built by now and lie in /var/cache/pbuilder/result/ :)
<dholbach> I hope to see you in #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu soon
<dholbach> go and bookmark https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> ROCK ON EVERYBODY and thanks for listening!
<dholbach> next up is bencrisford with "Gaming on Ubuntu"!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Gaming on Ubuntu - Instructor: bencrisford - Slides: http://is.gd/bYPHa || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> Slides for Gaming on Ubuntu: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweeklucid/GamingOnUbuntu.pdf
<bencrisford> Hello everybody!
<bencrisford> Well, this session is gonna be about Gaming with Ubuntu
<bencrisford> structure-wise, I am sorting this session into 3 main parts
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 1]
<bencrisford> after a quick introduction, I will briefly talk about emulation, free games, and finally - what OW is all about - community
<bencrisford> at the end of each session I will do a quick Q+A, so please save your questions for then :)
<bencrisford> right, so lets get started :D
<bencrisford> First - let me make something clear, Ubuntu wasn't designed for games, and most games werent designed for ubuntu, so it was never going to be easy
<bencrisford> But for years now linux gamers have had to work around the problems faced, and have come up with many solutions that can be used.
<bencrisford> Hopefully from this session you can learn about them, and learn to contribute to them
<bencrisford> I have prepared alot of stuff to talk about :), so I think we'll move swiftly on to section 1 (unless there are any questions)
<bencrisford> you can ask a question by putting a great big QUESTION: in front of it (jn #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<bencrisford> I take it that means I can move on...
<bencrisford> so, Section 1 - Emulation
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 2]
<bencrisford> the unfortunate truth is that most games are developed for windows or mac
<bencrisford> because that is where around 90% of the market share lies
<bencrisford> (commercial games*)
<bencrisford> In my experience as an ubuntu advocate, that can stop alot of people from changing OSes completely
<bencrisford> what these people dont realise, is that softwares exist that allow you to run windows software with an "emulator" under linux (of which Ubuntu is a distribution)
<bencrisford> there is a mistake in the slides - before anyone points it out :P
<bencrisford> Wine is not *technically* an emulator
<bencrisford> but we wont go in to the details of that :)
<bencrisford> I'm going to keep this section short, because Wine was already covered in an earlier session by YoKoZaR
<bencrisford> the logs are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekLucid
<bencrisford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekLucid/WineQA - or even - there :)
<bencrisford> in this session, I am going to talk about playonlinux (PoL)
<bencrisford> (available in the Ubuntu Software Centre in Ubuntu 10.04)
<bencrisford> Which is a front-end for Wine that lets you easily install windows games and softwares on Linux, whereas often you need to fiddle about quite alot to get applications to work with Wine (I never said it was perfect!).
<bencrisford> PoL (PlayOnLinux) comes with a wide range of scripts which can install applications and games with the click of a button.
<bencrisford> contributing scripts to PlayOnLinux is a great way to contribute, which I will hopefully cover more in my "Community" section later on
<bencrisford> Installing PoL, installs Wine.  So I like installing PoL instead because it provides me with both a graphical front-end and Wine itself.
<bencrisford> However, if you are after the most up to date versions of wine, or beta versions etc, this probably isn't the way to go.  I'm not sure if the latest version of Wine is included in PoL, so if it is imperative that you have it, its probably best getting it from http://www.winehq.org/download/deb
<bencrisford> Anyway, thats about it for emulators!  I said it would be short!
<bencrisford> (even though as rafalcieslak pointed out - wine is not an emulator :D)
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 3]
<bencrisford> slide 3 shows a screenshot of playonlinux
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 4]
<bencrisford> time for some questions :)
<bencrisford> Well, there doesn't seem to be any more questions
<bencrisford> that either means that I have explained everything exceptionally, or I am talking to myself :)  its probably the latter ;)
<bencrisford> well, if there is no more questions
<bencrisford> I am anxious to move on to Free games, so we get plenty of time for Community stuff, which is what OW is about :)
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 5]
<bencrisford> For those of you that might not have heard the word "FOSS" before, it stands for "Free and Open Source Software" and it is what many people call software which is basically freely available and editable to anyone.
<bencrisford> A good example of free games are the games in your "Games" menu when you install Ubuntu, and there are 488 available in the software centre in Ubuntu 10.04.
<bencrisford> One of my favourite free games at the moment is "Yo Frankie!" it is based off the film "Big Buck Bunny" (which I am sure many of you will have seen) and was made entirely with free software by the blender institute.  Its good fun, and it is in the Ubuntu repos.
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 6]
<bencrisford> there is a screenshot of the game :)
<bencrisford> the picture quality was lost a bit when I exported the presentation to PDF
<bencrisford> but the graphics are pretty awesome ;)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: POL is like a free Crossover Games or Cedega?  I have known about it for quite a while, but I don't remember ever having it installed.  Also I assume that POL and Wine can both be installed on a system without causing issues with each other.  Just like Wine or Cedega/Crossover could both be installe on the same system without conflickting with each other.
<bencrisford> sebsebseb: I'm pretty sure they will install along side each other OK
<bencrisford> that is something I will check for you in a minute ;), i'll PM you at the end of the session if not before :)
<bencrisford> PoL is basically an alternative to just installing wine, and it comes with a more user friendly gui
<bencrisford> and the games that are supported with scripts are much easier to set up
<ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: Is there a way to fix bugs on games without having to report them to the people to made it?
<bencrisford> Well, if you hack (edit the code) of an open source game, you don't have to tell the upstream (original) developers about it....
<bencrisford> but if there is a bug
<bencrisford> its best to let them no
<bencrisford> know*
<bencrisford> unless its a bug unique to your machine/operating-system
<bencrisford> I think that is what you meant when you asked?  if not, ask again in chat :)
<ClassBot> rafalcieslak asked: when it comes to Yo Frankie: what makes it MUCH slower than other games? My computer has a quite nice hardware, and is capable of running lots of awesome games with amazing graphics, but I could never manage to run Yo Frankie smoothly... I get about 8 FPS even in low-datail mode, and I doubt it's my hadrware fault: so I am simply interested in what makes this game different to others, that is much slower? Does
<bencrisford> rafalcieslak: Well, I couldn't tell you that, because I don't know :P.  the developers created the engine, and it is blender's first game
<bencrisford> so..
<bencrisford> I won't try and answer, because I don't know enough about the project :)
<bencrisford> so.. lets move on :)
<bencrisford> If you are after educational games
<bencrisford> then Ubuntu supports this well :)
<bencrisford> and many are available in the software centre
<bencrisford> but if you are only after educational games (and other packages) they ship with "Edubuntu" Ubuntu's educational derivative.  There are games for young children there but also for slightly older kids
<bencrisford> or there is Qimo, which is an Ubuntu based system, which ships games for young children such as gcompris and childsplay
<bencrisford> http://qimo4kids.com/
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 7]
<bencrisford> time for some questions again :)
<ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: How do you fix bugs if you know that it's something wrong with your machine/operating-system? Because I know someone who has the same game and it works on their machine fine but it's a different computer and operating system.
<bencrisford> Chopsticks: if your friend uses a different operating system, then the actual code and packaging is likely to be very different across different OS versions (unless you are emulating ?)
<bencrisford> the windows/mac and the linux versions will probably have different bug trackers
<bencrisford> and certainly different bugs
<bencrisford> when I said if it is specific to your operating system:
<bencrisford> I meant that if the game was say developed for linux, and the problem only existed in a particular distribution like ubuntu
<bencrisford> sorry if I wasn't clear
<bencrisford> Ah, if you are emulating, then you can get all sorts of problems L.
<bencrisford> :/*
<bencrisford> wine really isn't perfect
<bencrisford> not all games will work
<bencrisford> and alot can be buggy and not great
<bencrisford> (under an emulator)
<ClassBot> ExceptionIO asked: Have you heard of The Humble Indie Bundle aka Pay what you want ? http://www.wolfire.com/humble . What to you think of this method "Pay What You Want". You get 5 games at a lower cost and by this way you support either some charities/developers  ?
<bencrisford> ExceptionIO: I haven't actually come across that website before
<bencrisford> but it does look like a pretty neat idea
<bencrisford> it still means its not free software, but its definately a step closer
<bencrisford> and if the money is going to charity - great
<bencrisford> but thats my personal view...
<bencrisford> Anyway, time to move on, because its time for the Community section :D
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 8]
<bencrisford> OW (OpenWeek - sorry didn't make that clear earlier :S) is all about community and contributing to free software, so it wouldn't be right for me to leave it out of this session
<bencrisford> there are teams inside Ubuntu and outside of ubuntu (Upstream) where you can contribute to linux gaming tools/marketing/etc and ultimately help the ubuntu distribution anyway
<bencrisford> the most direct and obvious way to contribute to games in ubuntu, is simply packaging
<bencrisford> you can develop new games, and fix bugs in games already in ubuntu
<bencrisford> in the Ubuntu software centre (Ubuntu 10.04) there are - something like - 488 games available
<bencrisford> there are obviously going to be bugs in these, and someone has to sort them out - you know how annoying it is when you encounter a bug - so why cannot the one who sorts them out be you?
<bencrisford> launchpad is the bug tracker for ubuntu packages
<bencrisford> so that could be a great place to start
<bencrisford> to find the bugs in a specific package goto: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-chess
<bencrisford> and replace gnome-chess with whatever other package you may want to look aty
<bencrisford> at*
<bencrisford> (you can use the skills taught by dholbach in the previous session :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekLucid/Development1 (logs arent there *yet*)
<bencrisford> If you aren't a technical use though, you can still help our great project, and the games that are included
<bencrisford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GamingTeam - Ubuntu Gaming Team (a branch of the ubuntu marketing team)
<bencrisford> http://wiki.debian.org/Games       - Debian Games Team  (more focused on development/packaging so I understand)
<bencrisford> http://playonlinux.com/en/         - PlayOnLinux        (click "I'd like to help Play On Linux" for information on contributing)
<bencrisford> http://www.winehq.org/contributing - WineHQ             (information on contributing to the Wine project)
<bencrisford> and for educational games -> edubuntu (ubuntu's educational derrivative) :)
<bencrisford> you can get started with Edubuntu on #edubuntu (same network, if you are using lernid that is irc.ubuntu.com)
<bencrisford> [SLIDE 9]
<bencrisford> time for the final Q+A section of this session
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<bencrisford> looks like we might finish a little early...
<ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: When I use POL, if there's a game I want to install, it usually asks for a cd-rom. Since I have a netbook, is there a way I can do that with a USB memory stick?
<bencrisford> Chopsticks: when you use PlayOnLinux it wants the official CD, and I don't think you can purchase official USBs of games? (Im putting a question mark because I wouldn't put it past some of these game companies)
<bencrisford> if you did have it on USB I assume it would have to be cracked, and that isn't what PoL is about
<bencrisford> there might still be some way for PoL to support it
<bencrisford> I would suggest asking maybe on the PoL forums :)
 * bencrisford finds link
<bencrisford> http://www.playonlinux.com/en/forums.html
<bencrisford> (18:54:17) komputes: bencrisford: what games do you play on linux? do you recommend certain games that do not have emulation glitches?
<bencrisford> in playonlinux I mainly use steam
<bencrisford> it installs allright and runs my favourite valve games OK most of the time.. :)
<bencrisford> I don't suffer a noticable performance loss - but different hardware = different results :)
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<bencrisford> (18:55:04) Miroslav_RS: if you have another PC with CD/DVD-ROM you can make image of CD and mount it on ubuntu...
<bencrisford> Chopsticks: ^ yes, that could work :), if you put the image on a USB
<bencrisford> i'm not sure though, like I say, the PoL peeps would be better people to ask :)
<bencrisford> Ok, my time is up!
<bencrisford> I will quickly try and answer the last question in chat
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to participate remotely at an Ubuntu Developer Summit - Instructor: jcastro || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bencrisford> nice talking to you !! :)
<jcastro> thanks ben!
<jcastro> Ok
<jcastro> 2 sessions left!
<jcastro> This one is going to be "How to Participate in the Ubuntu Developer Summit"
<jcastro> where I will give you all the tips on how to follow along as we forge the Maverick Meerkat
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so first off
<jcastro> what is UDS
<jcastro> it's the Ubuntu Developer Summit, and like Ubuntu itself it happens every 6 months
<jcastro> usually after a release
<jcastro> we alternate between europe and north america
<jcastro> so this time it's in Brussels, Belgium
<jcastro> UDS is a week long and is full of sessions
<jcastro> which I will get to in a minute
<jcastro> ok, so before UDS actually begin all the teams are busy preparing their blueprints
<jcastro> blueprints are how we figure out what will go into maverick
<jcastro> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-launchpad-upstream-improvements
<jcastro> here's an example of a blueprint from last cycle
<jcastro> you can subscribe to blueprints to follow along progress along the course of a cycle
<jcastro> it will mail you everytime someone updates it
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/
<jcastro> this is where we keep all the information for UDS.
<jcastro> Click on the "Blueprints" link under discuss
<jcastro> that will take you here:
<jcastro> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-m
<jcastro> this tells you everything that is being considered for discussion at UDS.
<jcastro> what I do is open the ones I am interested in in tabs in my browser, and then subscribe to the ones I want to follow along.
<jcastro> any questions on blueprints so far?
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: are there going to be 322 sessions for the 322 blueprints?
<jcastro> probably not
<jcastro> I'll get to that bit in a second
<jcastro> sometimes a session might have multiple blueprints
<jcastro> ok so keep that page open
<jcastro> now let's see how that maps to sessions
<jcastro> go back to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/
<jcastro> and click on "Schedule" under "Attend"
<jcastro> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/
<jcastro> that takes us here
<jcastro> this page is also important
<jcastro> let's click to see what sessions are on Monday!
<jcastro> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/2010-05-10/
<jcastro> ok, as you can see here, you should see a big grid o' colors
<jcastro> each of those blueprints can be a session (if they're approved)
<jcastro> and they're color coded
<jcastro> so, orange is desktop, purple is community, brown is foundations, light blue is server, etc.
<jcastro> each of these sessions corresponds to a blueprint
<jcastro> you can check what blueprint it is by clicking on the top left corner of each block (the little paper icons)
<jcastro> that takes you to the corresponding blueprint
<jcastro> so if you're participating remotely you'll want to note where your favorite blueprints are
<jcastro> and then of course do the math on what time it is in your time zone compared to belgium
<jcastro> you can use timeanddate.com for that
<jcastro> for the keynotes we usually get the video out to the internet as soon as we can
<jcastro> so there's nothing really to do there.
<jcastro> ok, so now that you've figured out what sessions you want to participate let's get to actually participating in a session
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/RemoteParticipation
<jcastro> now
<jcastro> if you saw on the grid, on the top there was a list of rooms
<jcastro> these have odd names
<jcastro> cocobolo, etc.
<jcastro> that column corresponds to what room the session will be in
<jcastro> and each room has an IRC channel, which is listed on that page
<jcastro> in the old days, we stuck all the sessions in the same track in the same room
<jcastro> so you could just hang out in the "desktop" channel and follow along
<jcastro> now we shuffle tracks and people around
<jcastro> so remember that the IRC channels and the icecast streams are based on the ROOM
<jcastro> and the schedule tells you what room the session you want is in
<jcastro> thanks to the hard work of the IRC team we have a bot that will do the topics in each room
<jcastro> so it's similar to this bot
<ClassBot> qense asked: Why was decided to move people around? So they breathe fresh air?
<jcastro> good question!
<jcastro> actually it's to force people to move around and not camp out in their track room
<jcastro> this leads to better mingling in the hallways, etc.
<jcastro> instead of you sitting in the same room for a week
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so, these IRC channels are the main way to communicate with the session
<jcastro> when UDS starts there will be a link to an icecast stream in the schedule and on this page
<jcastro> you'll click on it and you'll hear the audio (live!) from the session
<jcastro> in the actual room we have 2 projectors
<jcastro> one with gobby (which I will get to)
<jcastro> and another one with xchat
<jcastro> people in the room will see the irc channel
<jcastro> so you can basically "chat" to people in the room
<jcastro> and they will just talk back to you, and you'll hear it over the icecast stream
<jcastro> each room's irc client will be set to highlight the room
<jcastro> so you'll talk like this in the channel:
<jcastro> ubuntu-uds-amarente: Hey, what's up with windicators?
<jcastro> and everyone in that room will see it highlighted in IRC on the projector, along with a notification bubble
<jcastro> you'll find that it's quite easy to participate in this manner
<jcastro> most sessions will have people paying attention to the IRC channel
<jcastro> any questions on the IRC and icecast?
<jcastro> the bot will put the session in the topic, so hopefully you won't be asking kernel questions when there's a design topic scheduled or something, heh
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> the other piece of the live session is the gobby document
<jcastro> gobby is a multiuser text editor that we use to take notes during the session
<jcastro> think of it like gedit and xchat mushed together
<jcastro> you need to install gobby
<jcastro> and then in the document list the document will be named after the session
<jcastro> so if you're in desktop-m-monoflamewar, the document and blueprint will all share that name
<jcastro> when you open the document in gobby you'll notice people typing in real time to take notes.
<jcastro> I find that keeping an eye on a gobby document during the session helps me keep track of what people are talking about
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: do we need to type in the room name, or is that automatic when we hit send?
<jcastro> you will be in the channel for that room
<jcastro> however the xchat username will be the roomname, so it's probably best to type out the name so it's highlighted on the screen
<jcastro> however most people running a session do a good job of monitoring IRC
<jcastro> so that someone will type on the screen and you'll hear someone in the room right away go "Yes charlie, I agree with you!" or whatever
<jcastro> the only annoying part I have found is having to switch your audio client to a new icecast url after every session
<jcastro> however when they're set up they'll be linked from the schedule and this wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/RemoteParticipation
<jcastro> usually what I do is set my IRC client to autojoin all those rooms
<jcastro> and then log them all
<jcastro> so I can peruse the conversations later when I have more time
<jcastro> any more questions on that?
<jcastro> ok moving on
<jcastro> ok so you'll attend each session you care about
<jcastro> and during the session you'll see people make TODO items out of things
<jcastro> let me find an example
<jcastro> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-new-firefox-support-model
<jcastro> ok so here's one from last time
<jcastro> during the session people will be assigned things
<jcastro> or volunteer for things
<jcastro> this is where you see the task assignment
<jcastro> it's the person's name, the task, and then the status
<jcastro> so ...
<jcastro> [jorge] Let's frobnicate the doohicky: TODO
<jcastro> or DONE, or INPROGRESS
<jcastro> for each blueprint each person will take what they need to do and break it up into tasks
<jcastro> [chrisccoulson] identify extensions to be kept in archive - binary components or importance can qualify an extension: DONE
<jcastro> for example
<jcastro> now, remember at the beginning I said that you should subscribe to blueprints you are interested in?
<jcastro> as the cycle progresses and people do these tasks, launchpad will send you a mail
<jcastro> that gives you a good idea on how that spec is progressing
<jcastro> and what we do is take all those tasks and keep track of them all
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/FeatureStatus
<jcastro> currently the graphs are zeroed out
<jcastro> but this is how you keep track of how we're looking for a release
<jcastro> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/04/23/lucid-community-team-review/
<jcastro> here's a blog post on how we did it for our team this cycle
<jcastro> but it applies to every team
<jcastro> so, I encourage you to subscribe to things you want to keep track of
<jcastro> and make a little filter in your email for launchpad blueprints
<jcastro> ok, so other tidbots
<jcastro> tidbits even. :D
<jcastro> http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/
<jcastro> here's the list of IRC logs per room
<jcastro> which can come in handy if you miss a session
<jcastro> any  more questions?
<ClassBot> nealmcb asked: What about before the session?  Many/most blueprints don't have an associated wiki page (yet?) and a short paragraph doesn't do much to help people come prepared for a good discussion.  Can you encourage folks to put up more complete descriptions on the wiki?
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> actually if it's blank it means the person is slacking *cough*
<jcastro> or they just plan to open the page in gobby at the session and do it as part of the session
<jcastro> we usually have a flickr feed of people taking photos during UDS
<jcastro> http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=udslucid&m=tags
<jcastro> if you are interested in following that, it'll probably be udsmaverick
<jcastro> same for twitter and identi.ca
<jcastro> this is where you can find funny things like mark with a funny hat: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8413078@N02/4127083362/
<jcastro> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8413078@N02/4127063712/
<jcastro> here is a picture of how the projectors are setup
<jcastro> as you can see there, gobby on the right, and on the left is the irc client
<jcastro> one thing to also remember is that the sessions are very fluid
<jcastro> and might spawn other sessions
<jcastro> so if you're in a session and people decide that it needs more discussion they might schedule another session for later in the week
<jcastro> so it's important that you refresh the schedule often
<jcastro> and watch it for changes
<jcastro> certain sessions need to be on certain days based on when certain people are attending
<jcastro> any more questions?
<jcastro> that's basically it really, the hard part is the math for the timezones. :D
<jcastro> oh
<jcastro> I also forgot to mention
<jcastro> on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/
<jcastro> we talked about the per day view
<jcastro> but on there you can also see per room
<jcastro> and per /track/
<jcastro> so if you only care about server things for example you can just watch the one page
<jcastro> wow so looks like I finished early
<jcastro> let's chill for ~20 and then we can get your feedback!
<jcastro> smoke if you got em!
<jcastro> (that means you can talk in here and relax!)
<charlie-tca> So, can we both listen and talk on IRC there?
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> they will talk to the microphones
<jcastro> and you'll just type in the channel
<sebsebseb> So when a session is going on in IRC,  how wil it work exactly,  just ask questions, and someone will say what's going on?
<jcastro> someone will be leading the session
<jcastro> and they'll have an agenda or whatever
<jcastro> that they'll have on the gobby document
<sebsebseb> So that's what the live stream thing is about?
<jcastro> or they might just have a brainstorming sessions
<sebsebseb> To listen to the session
<charlie-tca> this is easier than the last two I tried to follow remotely
<jcastro> the stream is for you to listen in
<sebsebseb> and for the people there to watch the IRC channel?
<jcastro> charlie-tca: this is the same as last time, that's when we figured out that you can basically talk into the icecast stream and it worked awesome
<jcastro> we used to have a dial in thing and that kind of sucked
<jcastro> sebsebseb: yes
<charlie-tca> Yeah, but it was thursday before I got the time right last time
<jcastro> heh
<charlie-tca> Kind of disappointing, that was.
<jcastro> it was tough to schedule last time. I was in EST, UDS was CST, the scheduler was in UTC.
<akgraner> jcastro, remote participation has gotten so much better for remote participants - the session leads are now very aware of those on IRC and actually engage them
<jcastro> yeah
<qense> As long as you respect the flow of the conversation in the room you can really contribute to the discussion remotely.
<jcastro> before we had people watching IRC on their laptops
<jcastro> which was not ideal
<jcastro> but now it's on a big screen so no one can miss it
<akgraner> last year this time the community and kernel teams paid attention to IRC but not the other teams - now they all pay attention - it is great!  Thank you for working to bring about that change
<nealmcb> I remember being remote back in sevilla in 2007, in the days of VOIP - lots better now :)
<jcastro> nealmcb: yeah the voip thing was pretty crap
<nealmcb> QUESTION: How does food work for remote participants?  E.g. zul awarded me a cookie yesterday in class.  How do I pick it up?  I know UDS food is the best :)
<jcastro> hah
<qense> We're working on implementing COOKIE support in XChat.
<jcastro> nealmcb: you'd think zul would just send you some EC2 time
<nealmcb> qense: Hmm - will the cookie will come with strings like with http? :)
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<qense> nealmcb: Yes, but you should check if they're safe before consuming them.
<jcastro> qense: do they have hockey in belgium?
<jcastro> the hotel has TVs, but not sure on the hockey coverage
<lucas> why are you asking? were you at the hockey game at dallas?
<qense> jcastro: I think football (soccer for the Americans) is more important in Belgium.
<qense> almost no one watches hockey here, even in the Netherlands -- although we do often win European, Olympic or World Championships.
<qense> jcastro: ow, of course
<jcastro> lucas: no. it's just it's the playoffs
<qense> you must mean ice hockey
<charlie-tca> jcastro: thanks for the great information. I have to feed a hungry boy now
<qense> no, that's not very popular in Belgium
<jcastro> charlie-tca: cheers!
<qense> We can't ice hockey here in the Low Countries :)
<qense> jcastro: What network is it on?
<jcastro> a bunch
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<qense> I think there will be CNN, maybe CNBSC as well.
<jcastro> this doesn't bode well
<qense> EuroNews, BBC, etc
<jcastro> at least you guys have good beer and chocolate!
<qense> The Belgians sure have.
<jcastro> ok, let's move on to the feedback and q+a
<jcastro> we'll leave the channel unmodded
<jcastro> so we can just get the direct feedback here
<jcastro> what do you all think of the week?
<jcastro> akgraner: looks like everyone hated it
<qense> akgraner: Restate your previous points made in #ubuntu-community-team!
<akgraner> hehe
<akgraner> jcastro, did you see those?
<hhlp> as usual great work, good speaker, learning a lot :)
<akgraner> qense, we already have plans for all those points
<qense> already! and the UDS hasn't begun yet!
<jcastro> what did you guys think about lernid?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Feedback and Conclusion - Instructor: jcastro || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> qense, yep - jcastro is already on it
<akgraner> jcastro, I love lernid and being able to use slides
<akgraner> but I was told many people just used a pdf reader and not lernid
<jcastro> whoops
<vox754> Lernid... seems like a good idea, but why bother if I already have xchat+evince
<qense> Connecting to the OpenWeek is easier with Lernid, you don't have to know what IRC channels are and such.
<sebsebseb> I haven't used Lemid, but if it is also for UDS,  sorts out the channels automatically and what not,  that would be good.
<vox754> By the way, organizers, I sense there is some lack of promotion of the Open Week, and the following UDS
<sebsebseb> I mean I know at the moment it's only for Open Week.
<sebsebseb> vox754: indeed at lack of promotion
<sebsebseb> for Open Week
<jcastro> yeah
<vox754> I attended one Open Week in 2007 perhaps, it was great. I found it by accident.
<kyubutsu> identi.ca has quite a few folk announcing OW
<jcastro> attendance is down about 100 people so that makes sense
<jcastro> that we need to improve visibility again and market it better
<akgraner> +1
<akgraner> jcastro, that was the discussion we had early this morning that qense was referencing
<vox754> I didn't know back then they were after an Ubuntu release. Everybody knows the Ubuntu release is every 6 months, but mostly are clueless about what comes after. Same with UDS, for me at least.
<kyubutsu> i feel comfortable using irssi.. thats why i havent tried lernid
<kyubutsu> -_-
<jcastro> kyubutsu: yeah I am old school as well
<sebsebseb> also akgraner did a really good job at copying in peoples names :) unfortunatly this was not so for jcastro, but nevermind.  Would have been nice to have my name with the question for Mark, about if he is disapointed or not, that more expereinced users are leaving Ubuntu.  Also with names for the questions, people that check out the logs, will know who asked what.
<qense> You're still using Lynx as well?
<akgraner> basically it's release week--> open week--> uds  back to back
<jcastro> sebsebseb: yeah I was using xchat-gnome and it wasn't highlighting the names
<vox754> Also, OW is disconcerting. Not many people used OW for Open Week. I was clueless when the games' guy earlier today was talking about OW.
<qense> You can copy the names from XChat GNOME.
<jcastro> unfortunately it's hard for two people to use the bot at once to automate the questions
<kyubutsu> somehow i dont agree more 'experience' users will leave ubuntu because of its current direction
<jcastro> qense: I couldn't figure that out
<sebsebseb> also I didn't know for a little while that,  my question for Mark had been answered, since I didn't get high lighted as a result, of the name not being copyed in
<jcastro> without it highlighting the entire column
<qense> jcastro: Just keep selecting up to the naem.
<qense> ah
<qense> that's possible as well
<qense> <jcastro> without it highlighting the entire
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so chalk that one up to me not being able to use xchat
<qense> You're a GUI noob!
<jcastro> clearly I need a more advanced linux
<akgraner> thats why the NTEU is here :-)
<sebsebseb> Wine session was good as I knew it would be.  Design team session I really enjoyed as well.  End of adopt an upstream :)  akgraner's  Ubuntu women session was really good.
<vox754> <sebsebseb> also I didn't know for a little while that,  my question for Mark had been answered, since I didn't get high lighted as a result <---- that also shows a little lack of concentration from your part. Lots of people gey distracted by the random chat going in -chat.
<sebsebseb> vox754: heh in a way
<kyubutsu> actually, i didnt know what playonlinux was until today
<sebsebseb> vox754: true I could have kept my eye on classroom more
<kyubutsu> i've only used wine alone
<jcastro> I hadn't even heard of playonlinux until today either
<kyubutsu> i like the concept.. i'll try it out
<vox754> playonlinux seems good. By the way, wine is a dependency, so it's not like it will "conflict", as someone asked earlier today. It's basically a GUI, and a few scripts.
<sebsebseb> yes
<sebsebseb> the guy was going to pm me back about that
<sebsebseb> ,but he didn't
<kyubutsu> its good i dont have wine installed at the moment, that way i try his install method too
<sebsebseb> anyway I got the answer I was after else where
<sebsebseb> it's like synaptic,  a front end. a GUI, but yes it can use different versions of Wine
<akgraner> so  - what about the number of sessions
<akgraner> session content
<akgraner> time zone
<JFo> I wasn't burned out by the number
<JFo> the content was great
<sebsebseb> at first when I saw the scheduled I guess I was a bit disapointed
<sebsebseb> since not as much this time
<jcastro> we had too many last time, it was brutal
<akgraner> any suggestions on how to gather ideas for session from community?
<jcastro> unless we get more people signing up to teach more classes
<JFo> jcastro, double +1 on the too many
<akgraner> jcastro, +1 I was fried after the karmic open week
<sebsebseb> however it's still been good, and also like the other two that I took part in,  a few  sessions that  I wasn't really interested in, or weren't really for me, but that's expected.  That will happen with the 10.10 open week as well probably.
<vox754> The session number was okay, not tiring at all, but not much excitement was created as the last time I joined one of this. Actually, the first one in 2007, I outright skipped a few classes that week.
<JFo> i slept all that weekend
<kyubutsu> number of sessions -->  +1
<sebsebseb> Can do other things when there's a session not really interested in of course
<yofel_> content was great, and yes, this open week felt better than the last, as for the time zone: I live in germany (currently utc+2) so it was optimal
<sebsebseb> a bit disapointed when I first saw the scheduled, more like I was disapointed, but saw it would still be a good open week
<jcastro> what was missing you think?
<akgraner> jcastro, question stealer
<akgraner> :-P
<charlie-tca> It was very centered on Ubuntu, missing Kubuntu and Xubuntu this time
<yofel> right
<jcastro> yeah we need to do better at chasing down derivatives
<akgraner> the oversight on the kubuntu sessions were my fault
<vox754> Q+A are great for the community. But the speakers need to have something prepared in case there are few questions like this time.
<yofel> actually, Lubuntu will be official for 10.10 right? or will that be decided next week?
<sebsebseb> open week starts, an hour later for me in,  May,  and then an hour earlier in November.  I like how for the Spring one it's an hour earlier,  and no I am not saying to change the time.
<akgraner> 2 sessions were suggested and I missed adding them somehow
<yofel> would be nice to have a session for that
<sebsebseb> yes since summer time I mean
<charlie-tca> Maybe a day just for derivatives to have an hour each would be an idea?
<jcastro> charlie-tca: that is an excellent idea
<jcastro> oh, this reminds me
<jcastro> that this channel is available year round!
<kyubutsu> it would have been nice to have had that development class using byobu
<jcastro> so if teams want to have their own weeks or days, they're more than welcome
<akgraner> yofel, agreed it's on my check for maverick open week to to email the those list specifically
<sebsebseb> akgraner: oh no Kubuntu sessions ah yes,  could have been good, since loads of people seem to think Canonical don't really care much about Kubuntu
<yofel> akgraner: :)
<vox754> charlie-tca, yofel, jcastro I don't see a big difference between the main Ubuntu, and the derivatives, really. Unless the speakers can stress the differences in a good way, I don't see a point.
<charlie-tca> I use both Ubuntu and Xubuntu. there is quite a bit of difference now
<yofel> vox754: it's mostly the gui, but that's why we  don't need many seperate sessions, most of it is identical
<jcastro> vox754: well, for them it's an opportunity to get people interested in their project
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: Lubuntu :)
<jcastro> so you can say "hey I don't know jack about xubuntu but I want to help"
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: not offical yet, it's in the repo
<charlie-tca> yeah, I haven't tried lubuntu
<sebsebseb> by 10.10 it will be offical from what I was reading before, like Kubuntu and Xubuntu
<jcastro> vox754: openweek is in some ways a recruiting tool for teams in ubuntu to find new volunteers
<vox754> When I joined talks on Kubuntu they are all like "KDE is gonna take over the world, you'll see, wow!" But not much afterwards.
<yofel> lxde is quite nice for a lightweight DE, haven't used it much yet though
 * kyubutsu huggles gnome.. feeds it some kde's 
<akgraner> would anyone actually take the time to fill out a survey if there was one linked to the wiki page?
<akgraner> a survey for feedback on open week
<yofel> KDE is usually more like: make an app as feature rich as possible, where gnome focuses (too much IMHO) on simplicity - one app per task
<kyubutsu> YESH!!
<kyubutsu> -_-
<yofel> nice to see for  K3B <-> brasero and sound-juicer
<charlie-tca> Does anyone besides myself read the wiki page more than once?
<yofel> akgraner: why not? if it doesn't take too long it would be an easy way
<kyubutsu> i like gwenview tho.. there are a few qt apps i really like.. just not enough for me to go KDE
<vox754> akgraner, I think having this feedback session in the schedule is a great idea, and it's sufficient for my needs. I don't know if others prefer to use the wiki more.
<akgraner> yofel, noted
<akgraner> vox754, agreed  - everyone has different levels of comfort for offering feedback
<akgraner> so I understand
<yofel> charlie-tca: erm... the derivatives page doesn't tell you much...
<charlie-tca> I know
<kyubutsu> it should be there in the wiki regardless.. unless you like coming up with percentages of possible visitors vs adding that couple of lines of code in the page
<kyubutsu> i prefer the after class review idea .. but why not use both
<kyubutsu> am talking about coverage ..
<akgraner> kyubutsu, just gathering feedbach
<sebsebseb> charlie-tca: Lubuntu is rather nice indeed
<akgraner> taking all the comments in at the moment
<akgraner> was the open week pdf booklet of value to any one ?
<akgraner> it's a ton of work and if no one is using it
<vox754> Hahaha... let me see that, I saw the link but never clicked on it.
<charlie-tca> yofel: the problem with that page is it is canonical and way out of date. The image is from jaunty? maybe.
<kyubutsu> ):  well.. i.. didnt look at it either.. i was glued to the channel so i didnt have a 'need', therefore demand equaled zero..
 * yofel didn't look at it either
<Odd-rationale> The PDF booklet looked good!
<charlie-tca> huh? pdf booklet?
<yofel> http://frylock.redvoodoo.org/~akgraner/UOW-Lucid-Booklet.pdf
<kyubutsu> that doesnt mean it was/wasnt a bad product or idea.. just no traffic .. which kind of sucks
<akgraner> yofel, oh crap I forgot to add the ubuntu one link to it
<akgraner> hehe
<akgraner> I may have moved it from my server now
<yofel> it's still there
<akgraner> whew
<Odd-rationale> it's on the ubuntu wiki
<yofel> looking at it now it's quite nice, but renders incredibly slow in okular on my eeePC (~5s to open a page)...
<akgraner> no I meant the link is where I had it originally
<akgraner> and then I stuck it in my files on ubuntu one
<vox754> The booklet is fine. "i was glued to the channel so i didnt have a 'need',"  <--- yea pretty much the same idea.
<akgraner> and you can share files publicly and I forget to switch out the links - I wanted to showcase Ubuntu One feature :-)
<akgraner> yeah - but you all sorta confirmed it's not used :-0
<akgraner> :-)
<sebsebseb> akgraner: oh when I tried to download just before Open Week,  it downloaded the old one,  as for the new one i'll still download it and check it out
<sebsebseb> akgraner: I mean the one with the scheduled and some info about the people doing Open Week
<akgraner> sebsebseb, I can't make the booklet until we lock in all the speakers
<akgraner> so this time I created a speaker wiki page
<akgraner> I think that was easier for most people
<akgraner> and I could add content about the speakers and their sessions easier
<akgraner> did anyone look at that page to see or find out more about the sessions or speakers
<nealmcb> lernid wasn't a fit for me.  not much control over the browsing, too crowded, couldn't click on urls in the session, some confusing controls (right arrow for enter?), a memory hog (including adding firefox to my chrome desktop), etc  irssi+chrome works better for me.  but nice to have notifications about the schedule - I should figure out how to get some other client to do that.  and irssi could probably auto-load urls
<kyubutsu> that's my formula.. irssi/chromium
<akgraner> nealmcb, I believe classbot also gives notifications for sessions as well - nhandler pleia2 cjohnston it is classbot or lernid that does that
<kyubutsu> classbot +1
<vox754> I kinda felt disappointed that the talks were not "clickable", that is, that they didn't point directly to their log, But just a minor complain really. The link to the logs is right there.
<akgraner> vox
<pleia2> classroom has identica and twitter feeds, as well as an ical all linked on wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<akgraner> vox754, we needed to see if it would interfer with lernid - and we found out it wouldn't
<akgraner> so they will go back to being linked in the table on the wiki page
<pleia2> classbot itself just does the two "session 5/10 minutes left" notices, and changes the topic for new sessions, no real advance warning
<vox754> ClassBot, you are great sir.
<akgraner> so lernid is what makes the notifier on the desktop tell you then?
<pleia2> akgraner: yep
<akgraner> we did more team Q&A's this time
<akgraner> how were those
<akgraner> (for those who attended)
<vox754> The byobu talk was great. I only have one computer, so I've never needed to setup screen, ssh, or anything like that. It's nice to see what's on other peoples computers.
<sebsebseb> akgraner: I am not that keen on the colour theme, but other then that, nice booklet by the looks of it.
<kyubutsu> byobu was cool [for me] 'cause it was very 'hands on'.. cant get any better
<sebsebseb> kyubutsu: byobu  I don't really understand those sessions
<sebsebseb> security session I didn't understand much of either
<akgraner> kirkland 's sessions are really well put together, but typically pretty technical at times
<yofel> yep, byobu was great, I found the developer session today nice too, but dholbach would need more time it seems :P
<kyubutsu> i liked those two sessions   /shrugs
<vox754> I'll repeat myself, Q+A are great. But the speakers need to have something prepared in case there are few questions like this time. I think even a having a monologue with oneself is useful. Heh.
<akgraner> should we identify those "technical"sessions better
 * kyubutsu agrees with vox754 
<yofel> sebsebseb: understand as in: you didn't get what was said or why we had them?
<akgraner> we can make suggestions :-)
<sebsebseb> yofel: I don't really know what byobu is
<sebsebseb> I mean I know it's some sort of app for screen
<sebsebseb> ,but I use neither at the moment
<vox754> The security session was kinda complicated for those that didn't know what a compiler, or debugger was. A little intro would be okay.
<kyubutsu> i dont quite like q&A all that much.. i prefer the presentation approach and THEN have a q&a
<sebsebseb> well I know what a compilar and debugger are
<yofel> ah, well, it might have been nice to have a few more use examples
<sebsebseb> I think.  compiler  makes the program out of the source code
 * yofel uses screen locally too so an apt process doesn't depend on X
<sebsebseb> debugger goes through it checking for bugs?  and pointing them out?
<kyubutsu> even if it's 10 minute presentation and 50 of q+a
<sebsebseb> points them out
<vox754> sebsebseb, if you "think" you know, then you don't know... heh
<sebsebseb> vox754: easy enough to find out,  plus I thought I sort of knew
<akgraner> ok feedback on the overall  - open week
<vox754> kyubutsu, 10 min presentation and 50 q+a is basically the same as Q+A only
<akgraner> any thing else
<akgraner> I have 1) better promotion
<akgraner> 2) more *buntu session
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> 3) surveys
<sebsebseb> oh surveys
<sebsebseb> what we thought of Open Week?
<sebsebseb> answer some questions
<sebsebseb> ?
<kyubutsu> vox754: to an extent, yes, practically .. but, my point is, i rather lay out the canvas in a categoric manner as fuel for the rest of the possible questions
<akgraner> 4)suggest Q&A sessions have some content perpared as well
<vox754> Overall okay. I just would like to see more people getting excited, not sebsebseb-like excited because that would shut down freenode. But still.
<akgraner> 5) lernid worked great for some not some much for others
<akgraner> 6) classbot was a hit
<vox754> I love Classbot
<sebsebseb> vox754: you mean yourself excited,  since that would get everyone banned from the channel
<sebsebseb> well nearly everyone
<akgraner> 7) booklet was not really used
<vox754> sebsebseb, buddy that's private man!
<akgraner> 8) link logs to table sessions again
<akgraner> vox754, sebsebseb pls :-)
<akgraner> :-(
<akgraner> I meant
<sebsebseb> akgraner: nevermind I guess, since we are joking with each other, or so it seems
<akgraner> it's cool for you all to - but not while I'm gather feedback  - its distracting
<sebsebseb> good point plus not much time left now
<mhall119> akgraner: you want feedback in here, or is there going to be an online survey?
<akgraner> *nods*
<sebsebseb> feel free to continue
<vox754> akgraner, on the promotion thing. I'm subscribed to the Ubuntu News that show the security updates. Those also show the new release. I would expect them to show also Open Week and UDS, but they don't. I guess those feeds aren't exactly under the community control, but still.
<akgraner> vox754, we did have it in there
<akgraner> for several issues
<akgraner> and in there I mean - UWN
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> so did I miss anything?
<JFo> no idea, too much churn
 * JFo scrolls back
<vox754> I mean this one: http://www.ubuntu.com/rss.xml  I originally subscribed to this one. The security bugs are also reported on ubuntuforums.org, that's how I found it.
<mhall119> I missed the whole day :(
<akgraner> mhall119,  logs are a beautiful thing :-)
<mhall119> yeah, I've got a lot of catching up to do
<akgraner> but sorry you missed the sessions today
<JFo> akgraner, I can't see anything you missed
<akgraner> 9) 25 sessions are good
<JFo> but as for Q&A sessions, if the teams are to prepare some content then they won't be Q&A sessions
<JFo> :-0
<JFo> errr :-)
<jcastro> well
<JFo> :-P
<jcastro> this time we were the week after release
<jcastro> so I kind of asked for general Q+A sessions from teams
<jcastro> in order to answer people's questions, etc.
<vox754> Like I would like them to appear here http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=13
<akgraner> JFo, I know the kernel team and desktop teams had some prepared questions and comments
<sebsebseb> jcastro: uh isn't Open Week always the week, after the new release?
<JFo> true
<jcastro> and so many people were busy that it was easier for them
<jcastro> sebsebseb: not always, just recently
<vox754> and here http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/USN-937-1
<jcastro> it used to be in the middle
<mhall119> there were a lot of people asking specific support questions I noticed
<JFo> akgraner, but I thought the point meant to present something
<sebsebseb> jcastro: middle of the month after release?
<JFo> if that isn't the case, disregard me :)
<jcastro> in the middleish of the cycle
<akgraner> JFo, hehe just to have content incase of lull
<jcastro> it wasn't until the last 2 I think where we decided it would always be the week afyer
<mhall119> perhaps a "triage" session would be good, where someone(s) field bug complaints, and direct people on where and how to file them specifically
<JFo> akgraner, cool, then nevermind what I said :)
<sebsebseb> oh ok
<nealmcb> I agree - a bit more presentation, less pure-q&a - helps explain things
<akgraner> ok  - thanks everyone!!!
<JFo> mhall119, I think that is in danger of being a week long session :)
<jcastro> ok
<akgraner> Great Open Week-Lucid
<nealmcb> byobu is a great tool, but hard to use in a live presentation -hard to notice things happening, can't go backwards
<jcastro> \o/
<mhall119> JFo: true, but hopefully an hour of watching where other people get directed will help some others do it themselves
<nealmcb> great week - thanks folks!
<sebsebseb> Thanks jcastro akgraner and the other people who  did Open Week!
 * nealmcb unlags by the end :)
<JFo> mhall119, I agree
<vox754> I guess Open Week and UDS are properly promoted, I just fail to frequent social sites, like one of the talks suggested.
<akgraner> Thanks for all the feedback - now let's make marverick kick butt!!
<mhall119> When is Ubuntu User Day?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
 * JFo cues Top Gun theme music
<vox754> What's a meerkat by the way?
<sebsebseb> mhall119: I think next one about three months from now, but not sure
<sebsebseb> vox754: Ubuntu 10.10
<JFo> vox google meerkat manor
<bencrisford> vox754: its an african animal
<bencrisford> a bit like a mongoose
<JFo> err vox754 that is
<mhall119> 3 months?  I thought it would be sooner
<kyubutsu> and its not a cat either
<kyubutsu> -_-
<vox754> meerkat not a cat --- fail
<kyubutsu> they are real cool .. if not cooler than cats
<mhall119> that's why it's spelled with a k
<vox754> 'cause it's not a cat
<mhall119> also because they run KDE
<pleia2> lol
<JFo> :-|
<bencrisford> vox754: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OcX-yKh0-M&feature=PlayList&p=013B46BD6DF1DD52&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1
<pleia2> mhall119: I *think* we're shooting for first weekend in June for UUD
<bencrisford> thats a popular advert in the UK :)
 * JFo awards mhall119 the bad pun of the day trophy
<ausimage> since it just banter all logs are up :)
<mhall119> pleia2: cool
<pleia2> mhall119: we'll update /UserDays soon though :)
<mhall119> JFo: I shall treasure it forevah
<JFo> :)
<JFo> mhall119, you going to UDS?
<mhall119> pleia2: please let me know (of have cjohnston let me know), I'd like to teach again
<mhall119> JFo: no, unfortunately
<vox754> What's UUD?   again with the acronyms... help
<JFo> :-(
<mhall119> vox754: Ubuntu User Day
<mhall119> kind of like Open Week, only more geared to using specific apps/tools
<mhall119> the last one was like 14 hours long
<vox754> I think I attended, accidentally again, one of those.
<pleia2> mhall119: great, thanks!
<mhall119> I'll just have to upgrade to Lucid before it happens
<vox754> bencrisford, Funny Meerkat ad, thanks.
<nealmcb> the tweets from @ubuntuclassroom include confusing text like #ubuntu-classroom - would an irc url work better there?  Or a link to a web page?
<nealmcb> (confusing because twitter highlights "#ubuntu" as a twitter topic for search)
<cjohnston> nealmcb: file a wishlist against classbot to get that changed
<cjohnston> mhall119: talk to me after uds and ill set you up
<yofel> btw, about maverick: shouldn't the toolchain be uploaded by now? ubuntu+1 is still invite-only
<jcastro> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/maverick-changes/2010-May/thread.html
<jcastro> looks like at least parts of it are there
<yofel> toolchain was scheduled for the 6th originally, and it would be nice if +1 would open before uds :/
<mhall119> cjohnston: cool
<ddecator> dang, i missed the class...good thing i have it logged =)
<ddecator> thanks for the helpful info jcastro
<jcastro> <3
<ddecator> now i just have to join this crazy amount of channels o.o
<yofel> we have more rooms than for lucid I think (or I'm just influenced by the amount...)
<jcastro> we have a boatload more now
<jcastro> the arm track, security, and design are all new tracks
<yofel> I do remember requesting that my channel join limit should be removed though
<nealmcb> akgraner: I just read the booklet - the pics/bios are great - thanks!   I wonder why use pdf though?  (vs enhancing the wiki)
<nealmcb> cjohnston: good idea.  here it is:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/classbot/+bug/577184
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 577184 in classbot "@ubuntuclassroom tweets should provide useful link" [Undecided,New]
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-08
<gadien> hi all
<gadien> Does anyone talk here?
<graffitti> Hello world
<graffitti> anyone ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-02
<sebsebseb>  
<sebsebseb> hi
<linuxfreaker> Hi
<weltbesiedler> hi :D
<nic_k> hi?
<lengoanhcat> sorry folks, I heard there is Ubuntu classroom at this time.
<lengoanhcat> so far i did not see anything or hear anything
<lengoanhcat> it is first time i use IRC, let me know that if i am lack of anything for getting connected
<candtalan> I think it will be in approximately 26 minutes, if I calculate correctly....
<lengoanhcat> @candtalan: thanks, need to adjust the time on my schedule
<meetingology> lengoanhcat: Error: "candtalan:" is not a valid command.
<candtalan> hi lengoanchat welcome! I am a novie on irc anyway
<akgraner> In about 20 minutes Open Week will start! :-)
<candtalan> (and I am not good at typing 'novice' either)
<candtalan> Hi - is that you Amber? I heard your house got destroyed? How are things?
<akgraner> candtalan, yep it's me :-) we are doing well and back in our new house - thanks for asking
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction - Instructors: jcastro
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> Good morning!
<jcastro> ok sorry everyone I got my wires crossed this morning
 * jcastro taps on the mic
<jcastro> Ok welcome to Ubuntu Open Week
<jcastro> this week we'll be doing a set of IRC workshops for Ubuntu Users
<jcastro> every cycle we do a developer week, an application developer week, and then right after release when we've got a fresh release out we do this week
<jcastro> which is User Week
<jcastro> first let's start off with the schedule
<jcastro> and then I'll show you how it works
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> These are the sessions that we'll be having this week
<jcastro> Instructors will show up at their given time
<jcastro> (unless they are late!) >_<
<jcastro> and then for that hour you can watch their class and ask questions
<jcastro> the way you ask questions is by also hanging out in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> and then in there when you want to ask a question you'll go like this:
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why can't Jorge figure out UTC conversions?
<jcastro> and then a bot will scrape together all the questions
<jcastro> and then paste them in here
<jcastro> and then the presenter will answer them in here
<jcastro> Note that we do have Mark coming in on Thursday morning
<jcastro> so make sure you show up for that.
<jcastro> So today we'll start off with an intro (this is it right here)
<jcastro> where you can ask me anything about Ubuntu
<jcastro> then we'll have a cloud intro session from Ahmed
<jcastro> and then Bhavani is going to give an intro session on how to get started improving Ubuntu
<jcastro> and then we'll cap it off with my introduction to Unity; where I'll go over some power user tips and tricks that you don't want to miss.
<jcastro> ok so with that
<jcastro> you can start kicking off your questions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> remember to preface your question with QUESTION:
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why do you work for Canonical, and what do you tend to do?
<jcastro> Why would be because it's an awesome place to work
<jcastro> what I do for my job this past cycle was to help people get started with Unity development
<jcastro> so things like "I want to fix unity how can I help?"
<jcastro> or "I want to write a Unity lens", where can I find the documentation
<jcastro> I also talk to upstream projects like thunderbird, shotwell, chromium, etc. on how we can better improve working with them and Ubuntu
<ClassBot> candtalan asked: the schedule I see says Mark is coming on Wednesday 4 May, not thursday as jcastro just said - confirm please?
<jcastro> oh yep, you're right, that is a Wednesday
<jcastro> Wednesday at 1400 UTC will be Ask Mark
<ClassBot> lengoanhcat asked: why choosing Unity as default interface instead of GNOME ? What pros and cons of that approach ?
<jcastro> Unity is a shell for GNOME
<jcastro> so right now we use lots of GNOME underneath Unity
<jcastro> like GTK, the applications, etc.
<jcastro> right now it's all GNOME 2.x
<jcastro> for 11.10 we'll be moving the distro over to GNOME 3.x technology
<jcastro> Unity is mostly GNOME 3.x ready
<jcastro> so the desktop team has already started moving parts of GNOME3 and GTK3 into the distro
<jcastro> and then the desktop experience (DX) team will put Unity on top of that
<jcastro> As to the why, that's been covered a bunch of places before: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/10/shuttleworth-unity-shell-will-be-default-desktop-in-ubuntu-1104.ars
<jcastro> that mostly covers the why
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Some people are speculating that Ubuntu might eventually move away from GNOME, can you confirm or deny Ubuntu's dedication to keeping GNOME a feature?
<jcastro> Ubuntu isn't moving away from GNOME
<jcastro> we use a bunch of GNOME technology
<jcastro> a bunch of people in Ubuntu are GNOME people
<jcastro> we still love and use GNOME
<jcastro> Canonical itself is a member of the GNOME Foundation Advisory Board and continues to fund GNOME activities
<jcastro> we just use a different shell on top of GNOME.
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: Adding to lengoanhcat, Unity seems a total change to the desktop experience almost as much as GNOME3, but both seem to be kind of immature right now, not as customizable or fully functional as the classic GNOME. So a lot of us including me, feel that Ubuntu jumped the gun. Any information regarding that?
<jcastro> that really depends on how you feel about Unity
<jcastro> if your goal is to get work done then Unity does that
<jcastro> if your goal is to customize everything to a pixel then Unity isn't designed for that
<jcastro> Unity is designed to launch your apps, let you manage your apps, and get out of your way
<jcastro> now that being said there are still some areas of Unity we can improve
<jcastro> I wouldn't say "jumped the gun", but it is a radical change for users, which is what makes 11.04 the most important release we've ever done
<jcastro> this is mostly the beginning of a new chapter in Ubuntu development.
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: What is the IRC communication channel of the Desktop Team?
<jcastro> you can find the desktop team in #ubuntu-desktop on freenode
<jcastro> if you're looking for unity related topics, then #ayatana on freenode is the channel to discuss that
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Adding to lgp171188's question.  Why did Canonical opt to go with Unity instead of adjusting GNOME 3 and waiting for 11.10 to do this?
<jcastro> We feel that Unity is more aligned with what we want the user experience to be for Ubuntu users
<jcastro> (also remember that at the time GNOME 3 was running a bit late and had been postponed for 2 cycles already)
<jcastro> where as we had Unity mostly complete, it just needed the view to be rewritten for compiz
<ClassBot> lengoanhcat asked: when designing Unity shell, a lot of designing ideas are added into. Can you specify what are those and how are they benefit users which simply wants to get the job done ?
<jcastro> I can go into this more in my Unity session
<jcastro> but I am not on the design team
<jcastro> so let me just point you to some articles I've written about Unity
<jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
<jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4787251665/giving-space-back-to-applications
<jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4494867256/how-i-use-the-unity-dash
<jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4472015615/how-i-multitask-in-unity
<jcastro> (that last one is my favorite, I show you how I use Unity to multitask)
<jcastro> and that's basically why I like it
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: You mentioned that Unity is already almost GNOME 3.x ready and the porting to GNOME 3.x is already on the way. My question here is, GNOME3 offers almost everything that Unity does on top of classic GNOME. So are there any exciting things that are in the pipeline for Unity that will run on top of GNOME 3.x? Any value adds?
<jcastro> ok so first off
<jcastro> "classic GNOME" as we know it aka. GNOME 2.x is gone
<jcastro> that means no old panel, and no more applets
<jcastro> what is coming in Unity for 11.10 I won't have an answer for until next week
<jcastro> as we haven't had the Ubuntu Developer Summit yet
<jcastro> so keep an eye out for the plans for 11.10 here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-o
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What about the default Gnome 3 fallback that is like Gnome 2,  that won't be available at all for 11.10? Or will it some how?  Also maybe some how, distro's can provide both anyway Gnome 2 and Gnome 3?  In fact wasn't that an idea for Ubuntu before, but then didn't happen for technical reasons?
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> so you can't technically do that
<jcastro> you can't offer GNOME 3 and 2 on the same disc
<jcastro> so for example
<jcastro> right now in 11.04 we have GNOME 2.32
<jcastro> if we want GNOME 3 then you need the libraries to be GNOME and GTK3
<jcastro> so right now it's either one or the other
<jcastro> this is why the upgrade to Unity and GNOME3/GTK3 takes two cycles
<jcastro> we had to get Unity in first
<jcastro> and then once GNOME3 is out take a cycle to move everything up to GNOME3/GTK3.
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Are there plans to allow us to further customise Unity.  For example: I use multiple monitors, more than the average person and I prefer to work from right to left with my mouse, moving the icon menu from the left to the right would be far more ergonomic for me.
<jcastro> there will definately be more work on multimonitor stuff
<jcastro> Unity's multimonitor support right now is basically "a little bit better than GNOME2"
<jcastro> there are still some areas we can improve there
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/9886/how-does-unity-work-in-multi-monitor-configurations
<jcastro> as far as further customizations, you'll have to wait until UDS so we can figure out what the plan is going to be
<jcastro> right now we're basically getting ready to cycle over into feature development
<jcastro> so we're kind of in the middle of figuring that out
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Upstream Gnome has a fall back that is similar to Gnome 2, I was wondering if this may be available in 11.10 for people who want it, for example from the repos?
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> the nice thing is once all of GNOME3 is in the archive
<jcastro> we can do things like that
<jcastro> I am sure that the team who is working on the GNOME3 PPA will work on giving people an awesome pure-upstream GNOME experience in 11.10, however I'm not on that team so I won't make any promises for them. :)
<jcastro> but now that 11.04 is out of the way there's nothing stopping us from doing a nice pure GNOME on 11.10 in universe
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: Is Unity only for people who want to just get things done? GNOME 3 seems to be toeing a similar line? So what options does Ubuntu offer for those who want to customize and be in control of their desktops in addition to getting things done?
<jcastro> there's tons of options that we've always had
<jcastro> we have xubuntu
<jcastro> kubuntu
<jcastro> and (now getting close to more official support) lubuntu
<jcastro> there are also plenty of other window managers in the archive
<jcastro> I hear xmonad is popular if you're into tiling window managers
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: When is UDS for 11.10 scheduled to be?
<jcastro> Next week!
<jcastro> http://uds.ubuntu.com/
<jcastro> you can look at the schedule here: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-o/
<jcastro> more questions please!
<jcastro> I have a full 20 minutes, more questions?
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Can you highlight some of the future plans for Unity, how it will stay ahead of GNOME3 which is such close "internal competition"?
<jcastro> hmmm, I still won't know our plans into next week
<jcastro> but I can tell you some things I'd like to see us work on
<jcastro> I'd like to see us expand lenses more so people can write cooler ones
<jcastro> and I'd like to see the applications lens to be made simpler and easier to browse
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I know that starting with 11.10 Unity 2D will probably be offered as the fall back and so also Qt in the Ubuntu ISO, so do you think that Ubuntu will start having more Qt/KDE apps in the ISO?
<jcastro> on the ISO? tough to tell
<jcastro> we're basically saying "Qt apps are welcome by default"
<jcastro> by offering Qt
<jcastro> but it will be up to application developers to make the apps awesome
<jcastro> so there probably won't be an explicit caring of wether it's Qt or GTK
<jcastro> "app developers want Qt, and we make an OS that needs app developers, so we give app developers what they way" is the basic reason there
<jcastro> !q
<ClassBot> lengoanhcat asked: what is your most feature feature of Unity ?
<jcastro> you probably mean my most favorite
<jcastro> I would say the 'gnome do like workflow"
<jcastro> I can just hit the super key
<jcastro> (that's the windows key on most keyboards)
<jcastro> and just start typing
<jcastro> and it finds what I want
<jcastro> so super+"ter" finds my terminal
<jcastro> so it basically let's me find what I need without hunting and pecking
<jcastro> it's like moving to google from using an old search engine that had categories for everything
<jcastro> and you had to click around and you couldn't find anything
<jcastro> now I can just type what I want to do
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: I understand that 'lenses' is Unity jargon that will explained in Unity session, but can you give us a brief overview about it?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> ok so when you hit the super key we do this overlay thing
<jcastro> it looks like a Quake terminal
<jcastro> we call that the dash. We let people write little search things for that dash via a lens
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/38772/what-lenses-for-unity-are-available
<jcastro> so for example
<jcastro> a google books lens would search google books
<jcastro> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/04/install-unity-reddit-lens-in-ubuntu-deb.html
<jcastro> a reddit lens would let you search from reddit right from the dash
<jcastro> so the idea there is to let people integrate unity with whatever web services or applications they want
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/Lenses/ has the documentation
<jcastro> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/Lenses/Ideas has a collection of ideas of lenses people would like to see
<jcastro> (add your own to that list if you can think of something awesome)
<jcastro> lenses are small, they're vala or python
<jcastro> a python lens is about ~350 lines of code, so people can just start making tons of these things
<ClassBot> candtalan asked: what would gnome 3 have to have been, to have avoided need for unity? Is it  re the User experience?
<jcastro> sorry I can't speak hypothetically and in hindsight at the same time
<jcastro> good question for Mark though
<ClassBot> DrKenobi2 asked: have you ever think of doing a SDK like the ones Apple has?
<jcastro> http://developer.ubuntu.com/
<jcastro> we have a whole set of APIs and developer documentation that we're working on now
<jcastro> I wouldn't call it an "SDK"
<jcastro> but it's better than what we had last cycle (nothing)
<jcastro> as we mature as a platform I'm sure we'll start to see something like that
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: When building Unity, do you guys think from all perspectives? Some of us give Ubuntu computers to our family.  I would like to know if you guys sit back and think: "If I give this to my grandmother, can she use it" when building UI's.  Motive: My mother found unity quite complicated and wanted Classic Ubuntu back.
<jcastro> ah nice question
<jcastro> yes, we do extensive user testing on Unity
<jcastro> http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/
<jcastro> here is a huge report on one of our findings
<jcastro> we will continuously do user testing and use that feedback to improve unity
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: I heard that there will be held a GNOME Desktop summit in Berlin, Germany, on August 6-12, 2011. Who are the official Ubuntu delegates to this summit?
<jcastro> well we don't have "official delegates"
<jcastro> a bunch of just go
<jcastro> we had like ~25 people at the last GCDS
<jcastro> there will be representatives from the desktop, design, and DX teams
<jcastro> I usually go but I'll be moving this time
<jcastro> and Mark usually attends GCDS and/or GUADEC
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What do you think about distro's such as Linux Mint, who have a version based on Ubuntu?
<jcastro> no opinion really, too busy working on ubuntu. More Free Software is always good.
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: Most Thinkpads do not have a "Super" key. What will be its substitute?
<jcastro> yes you can configure the key
<jcastro> and thinkpads also have a bios option that lets you set a key to super iirc
<jcastro> but yeah, in Unity let's you change that key to whatever you'd like
<jcastro> My new Thinkpad X120e came with a windows key
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> candtalan asked: super key - thinkpads - just use cursor click at icon top left hand side?
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/34145/can-i-define-keyboard-shortcuts-using-the-super-key
<jcastro> here are the instructions for that if you have a thinkpad without a super key
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: (by way of raju) are you planning any summit in india ?
<jcastro> there was just a huge Ubuntu event in India
<jcastro> but UDS itself is usually in Europe or North America (centralized areas)
<jcastro> though I would love to go to India
<jcastro> and Brazil!
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I don't really know much about the teams at Canonical, but can you explain why your on Jono's community team?
<jcastro> yes so he's the community manager
<jcastro> and the 4 of us build communities around ubuntu
<jcastro> I do external developer relations
<jcastro> daniel focuses on growing internal developers
<jcastro> like making things easier to fix, etc.
<jcastro> david grows translations and application developers
<jcastro> and kim0 (who has a session coming up after this) focuses on growing the cloud and server communities
<ClassBot> raju asked: where i can get the details of the summit in india
<jcastro> nigelb attended the summit in india, ping him on IRC
<jcastro> (you just missed it!)
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: When Ubuntu introduced upstart a few releases back to improve start-up, it was a great step in that direction. But now with alternatives like systemd coming up, will Ubuntu consider them? Is there any info regarding that?
<jcastro> we won't be looking at systemd until at least /after/ the next LTS release (12.04)
<jcastro> http://undacuvabrutha.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/why-ubuntu-should-continue-with-upstart-for-11-10/
<jcastro> this blog post should answer your questions on upstart/systemd
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> I have time for one more!
<ClassBot> lgp171188 asked: Fedora has pioneered something called 'Consistent Network Device naming'. Is ubuntu going to adopt that?
<jcastro> I saw that, it looks pretty awesome
<jcastro> I haven't followed server/plumbing as much as I should  have this cycle
<jcastro> you can ask someone on #ubuntu-server though
<jcastro> ok well that about wraps it up
<jcastro> thanks for all the questions, we got through a  bunch!
<jcastro> and now kim0's going to wow you with cloud.
<jcastro> so take a minute break!
<jcastro> kim0: all set?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Putting Your Head In The Cloud: Ubuntu Cloud Q and A Session - Instructors: kim0
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<kim0> Hi everyone
<kim0> Good Morning, good afternoon and good evening
<kim0> So I work with Jorge's (Jono's team) as well
<kim0> I'm focused on building the cloud community
<kim0> which means you can kick me any time to get info about cloud (at least I'll try) :)
<kim0> So my plan is going to be
<kim0> I'll give a quick intro to what cloud means
<kim0> Answer questions
<kim0> Then if we have time, shoot a nice little demo
<kim0> However, the session should be focused on interactive questions
<kim0> so basically you drive
<kim0> feel free to ask me anything and steer the session
<kim0> = Intro to cloud =
<kim0> Cloud has been a major buzz word the past few years
<kim0> however almost everyone has a different definition
<kim0> of what is or is not cloud
<kim0> let's try to go over some general principles
<kim0> or rather properties often found in cloud computing environments
<kim0> - Pay per use
<kim0> Which means you usually don't pay upfront .. but rather pay as you go
<kim0> the more resources you need/want .. the more you pay
<kim0> Example:
<kim0> Ubuntu One, is a cloud storage service
<kim0> you get a free basic package
<kim0> however should you want/need more storage .. you can buy them and use them
<kim0> other similar services would be dropbox, or Amazon S3 ..etc
<kim0> Of course "storage" is not the only application .. it's only an example .. you can rent complete servers as we'll see in IaaS shortly
<kim0> - Instant scalability
<kim0> A major differentiating feature of "cloud" is being able to "scale" almost instantly
<kim0> Example:
<kim0> Assuming you're running a wordpress blog on a VPS
<kim0> It will usually take your provider some time if you'd like to spin up 10 more servers
<kim0> and you usually rent a server by a month
<kim0> however with cloud services, you can rent them by the hour (or less)
<kim0> so you can spin up 10 servers for the next hour
<kim0> when your website gets slashdotted
<kim0> then destroy them and give them back and stop paying for them
<kim0> when you don't need them
<kim0> of course making use of those 10 servers is another story (your software has to be intelligent)
<kim0> - API access
<kim0> Almost all cloud are going to provide you an API
<kim0> API = Application programming Interface
<kim0> which is a "programmatic way to manipulate your cloud envrionment"
<kim0> which means you can very simply write scripts that control every aspect of your cloud envrionment
<kim0> Alright .. any questions so far
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: A general question, but why are loads of companies such as Canonical starting to embrace the cloud a lot now?
<kim0> Great question
<kim0> Well, cloud computing is really a new way to look at computing (usually server side) but same concepts apply to some end-user services too like ubuntu-one for example
<kim0> Basically .. it's a paradigm shift into how we work with servers and services
<kim0> instead of waiting weeks for a server to be delivered, spending days installing and configuring software on it
<kim0> spending lots of money up front
<kim0> with cloud things change
<kim0> basically .. you snap your fingers (call api, click button ..) and a number of servers magically appear right this instant
<kim0> snap another and fully automated workflows configure the new servers
<kim0> snap a third .. and your application can scale onto those newly created servers!
<kim0> and when you don't need that much servers .. snap a fourth time .. and everything downscales to what it was .. and you stop paying for those resources
<kim0> sounds good ? yes it does .. which is why all IT companies are interested in cloud
<kim0> cloud is basically comoditizing IT and turning it into an "electric grid"
<kim0> where you never think about running your own, you just plug, use and pay for what you just used
<kim0> hope this sort of answers your question
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Since Ubuntu is embracing the cloud more and more everyday are there plans for Ubuntu to embrace and make Xen better for cloud hosting solutions that want to use Ubuntu to host the hypervisor?
<kim0> wow .. I am getting lots of questions .. cool
<kim0> Most major Linux distros has decided to support KVM over XEN
<kim0> KVM is the Linux kernel integrated hypervisor
<kim0> while Xen is basically a third party mini kernel that you load before linux
<kim0> this is not really the place to compare both hypervisors
<kim0> however both have their pros and cons
<kim0> The one thing Xen really has going on for itself (IMO) is that it was started long ago
<kim0> has built a big following and many customers have it deployed in production
<kim0> and do not want to change to KVM
<kim0> The topic has been brought up for Oneiric (11.10)
<kim0> you can read a more thorough discussion at http://fossplanet.com/f10/%5Boneiric-topic%5D-revisit-xen-support-118193/
<kim0> my understanding is that better Xen support is planned
<kim0> helped by the fact that more and more of its components are going into upstream Linux
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: You said: "[17:08]	<kim0>	- Pay per use". Is thus Ubuntu One Canonical's backdoor for making profit in the future?
<kim0> There's nothing backdoorish about providing an online service IMO
<kim0> It's quite similar to Dropbox, or Apple's iDisk ..etc
<kim0> and in no way are you forced to pay
<kim0> it's just a good service that is well integrated with Ubuntu
<kim0> and is multiplatform
<kim0> plus generating revenue is a good thing for the ubuntu project since it helps with future development
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Adding to bullgard4's question: Are there plans to expand Ubuntu's current cloud offers to things such as movies on demand (Linux's solution to iTunes) as a form of profit to keep the company going?
<kim0> well there is Music streaming at the moment
<kim0> Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/MusicStreaming
<kim0> however I haven't heard about movie streaming
<ClassBot> raju asked: i dont the basics of cloud computing ...as you said cloud computing, nothing but storage . so already this google and hotmail providing us storage units then why we need to go for other sources ( dont mind if it is a silly doubt, but i have it )
<kim0> Great question raju
<kim0> Expect a fairly long answer :)
<kim0> so the storage example I used is only but a limited example
<kim0> to fully address your question .. let's see how people usually define different types of clouds
<kim0> one way to define clouds is by the level of abstraction they offer
<kim0> There is 3 different types
<kim0> - IaaS Infrastrcture as a service
<kim0> - PaaS Platform  as a service
<kim0> - SaaS Software as a service
<kim0> Let's quickly comment on each of these
<kim0> IaaS, is a cloud that provides you with "low level" computing resources on demand
<kim0> Example: "give me 40G of storage space" "give me 6 big servers, 2 small ones, and 1 really big server for my database"
<kim0> "give me 3 real IP addresses, and have my 6 big servers load balanced"
<kim0> All these are compute resources (storage, cpu/ram, network, ...etc)
<kim0> they are all generated and assigned to you on the fly
<kim0> and you only pay for them, as long as you need or want them
<kim0> sample clouds that do this today are
<kim0> Amazon EC2, or Rackspace and others
<kim0> Ubuntu allows you to "build" a cloud as well
<kim0> i.e. if you fancy competing with Amazon EC2, you can
<kim0> Ubuntu ships UEC (Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud) based on the Eucalyptus project
<kim0> which allows anyone to build a cloud similar to ec2
<kim0> With Ubuntu 11.04 we also ship OpenStack, another foss cloud software stack that's getting popular rapidly
<kim0> The second type of cloud, PaaS
<kim0> this is a higher level of abstraction
<kim0> you are not really interested in seeing "server, storage, and network"
<kim0> you want to upload your application and boom it just runs on the cloud
<kim0> and runs well, and is fault tolerant and is scalable ..etc
<kim0> without you having to worry about any of the details
<kim0> Examples of such clouds would be Google's Google App Engine
<kim0> Heroku, Microsoft's Azure..etc
<kim0> With Ubuntu if you're interested you can run http://www.cloudfoundry.org/
<kim0> It allows multiple different programming languages
<kim0> Java, rails, node.js ..
<kim0> and I believe python and others are coming
<kim0> of course the disadvantage is that your application needs to be rewritten to use the PaaS provided APIs
<kim0> since this is what makes all the magic work (auto scale, fault tolerant ..etc)
<kim0> another potential disadvantage is vendor lockin (cloud foundry is an open source project though)
<kim0> and also having less control over the envrionment (pro or con depending on how you look at it!)
<kim0> The third and final type of cloud is SaaS
<kim0> Software as a service, the simplest to imagine
<kim0> basically a provider provides you with a full complete online application
<kim0> Examples would be google-mail, google-docs, facebook ...etc
<kim0> Since we just went through different cloud "types"
<kim0> people will also usually use the term "public cloud" or "private cloud"
<kim0> public basically means a multi-tenant cloud, i.e. one that is shared between many customers
<kim0> examples would be amazon ec2, rackspace, heroku ...etc
<kim0> a private cloud however, is a cloud serving one customer, isolated from other customers. Usually a private cloud runs in-house (behind your firewall)
<kim0> Again there's different pros and cons to each type .. but it's getting too long already :)
<kim0> let me know if that generated any other questions
<ClassBot> maco asked: how does "cloud computing" differ from good ol' fashioned "UNIX machines"?  Server with all your stuff exists elsewhere, and your data's there, not local...everything you interact with is away on a server... what's the difference? Isn't this just a return to 1982?
<kim0> Good question indeed ..
<kim0> In a sense nothing has changed, and in another, everything has changed :)
<kim0> nothing has changed, because yes it is just a remote "virtual" unix machine with your data on it
<kim0> however everything has changed, because everything that is needed now has an API on top
<kim0> which means it's faster, more fault tolerant (if you do it right), more elastic (if you softwae is smart enough) ..etc
<kim0> compare the time it takes to order ten servers, rack them, install them, configure them and get some website up and running
<kim0> with the 1 minute it takes me to do it on the cloud :)
<kim0> also, changing the payment from up-front capex, to on-going (opex) is a benefit many appreciate
<kim0> also, the "sharing" of services (machines, storage, networks, security personnel ...)
<kim0> generates overall better financials (lower prices, hopefully better service)
<kim0> I hope this sheds some light on the topic .. definitely there's more to be said
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Can you provide a link to the official AMI images that Ubuntu releases for Amazon Cloud?
<kim0> Awesome ... I'm loving how the questions are all spot on and driving the session
<kim0> So, when you tell Amazon "give me 10 Ubuntu servers"
<kim0> Amazon uses an official Ubuntu server image
<kim0> and starts it on ten different virtual servers
<kim0> in order to do that, you need to tell Amazon which Ubuntu image you want (called AMI-ID)
<kim0> AMI = Amazon Machine Image
<kim0> Ubuntu generates official Ubuntu AMIs which you can find a list of at http://cloud.ubuntu.com/ami/
<kim0> You basically use the search bar to zoom in on the AMI you want
<kim0> like "natty 64 ebs"
<kim0> and you get the ID you want
<kim0> Once you get the ID .. you can use the Amazon web console to launch the servers
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kim0> check out this video tutorial http://www.youtube.com/user/ubuntucloud#p/u/4/rYJLIfVuSMY
<kim0> and check out the rest of the videos in the channel if interested
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Does Ubuntu make a "full server" AMI for Amazon Cloud that is "official"?
<kim0> Yes, again check them out on http://cloud.ubuntu.com/ami/
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Surely you agree that it's a good idea to still  have data locally, in case cloud servers go down, or something goes wrong and data is lost on them?
<kim0> Great question
<kim0> I would rephrase it this way, it's a good idea to have a DR (disaster recovery) plan
<kim0> whether that plan includes having data locally, or remotely somewhere else (maybe on a couple of other VPS servers) or maybe in another cloud provider's data-center ..etc
<kim0> it really depends on your needs
<kim0> Cloud servers can and do go down
<kim0> Amazon ec2 (by far the world's largest) just had a major outgae!
<kim0> which was a wake up call for many
<kim0> definitely be prepared for failure and be prepared to migrate to a different provider or run things locally
<kim0> clouds usually however offer a way to better protect your data/servers
<kim0> like offering multiple avaialbility zones
<kim0> or multiple regions (continents)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kim0> if you make good use of those resources by spreading your computing needs around them, you should be able to work around most failures
<kim0> since I'm almost running out of time
<kim0> you can always find me in #ubuntu-cloud
<kim0> feel free to ping me any tikme
<kim0> time*
<kim0> taking a quick shot at other questions
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Adding to zzecool's and bullgard4's comment: can you explain to us what data protections UbuntuOne takes? Such as encryption by user password and disk encryption.  I have been staying away from Ubuntu one because I cannot find any clear information on what you guys do to protect user data.
<kim0> sorry I'm really running out of time
<kim0> you can encrypt your data before sync'ing
<ClassBot> envygeeks asked: Are there any plans for Ubuntu cloud to parter with other vendors other than Dell and Amazon? Say vendors like ServerBeach (who is not starting to offer Private Clouds and Cloud services)
<kim0> check out canonical.com/cloud
<kim0> That's all folks
<kim0> thanks everyone
<kim0> if I didn't have time to answer you
<kim0> please ping me back any time
<kim0> Have fun .. bye
<coolbhavi> thanks kim0 for the session :)
<coolbhavi> howdy mates
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Involving in ubuntu development/packaging and kickstarting your box  for ubuntu development/packaging - Instructors: coolbhavi
<coolbhavi> I am Bhavani Shankar a ubuntu community contributor for ~4 years and a MOTU
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<coolbhavi> today I am going to take a session on intro into the ubuntu devel sphere and setting up basics for ubuntu dev environment
<coolbhavi> so assuming there are no questions lets get started
<coolbhavi> Now the primary question one thinks of when ubuntu development comes to mind is "how do I contribute"
<coolbhavi> Basically in the ubuntu development world there is no preference/prerequisite of any language required to contribute. So everyone is welcome to the scene :)
<coolbhavi> You can do various kinds of stuff in ubuntu development environment such as merges syncs where in we port debian changes or update a package to the latest upstream version or do a stable update release where we update the software in present stable release via the -updates component or you can fix build failures or you can contribute a bit of your own code
<coolbhavi> :)
<coolbhavi> so what does it actually take to start off development? First and the foremost important thing is to understand the ubuntu packaging guide here:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
<coolbhavi> It might be a bit rough and tough to start with but we motu's always hang around in #ubuntu-motu You can always jump in and ask for any help
<coolbhavi> by that I meant essentially participation is important :)
<coolbhavi> next important thing is the ReleaseSchedule and understanding of it. ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
<coolbhavi> is the latest ubuntu release schedule wherein you can see a lot of freezes such as debian import freeze from where on semi automatic syncing of packages from debian is stopped essentially
<coolbhavi> Feature freeze upon which we concentrate only on bugfix releases and highly critical changes and we dont accept any new version of package (exception is that it should be only a bugfix release)
<coolbhavi> after a brief description of freezes above next thing which comes to mind is how do I get my package into the ubuntu repositories? Is there any help available in this process?
<coolbhavi> Certainly yes. In the ubuntu/debian world we do something called as sponsoring
<coolbhavi> sponsoring in short is nothing but signing of a package by a ubuntu/debian developer on behalf of the prespective developer and uploading it to the archives after reviewing it and major of it is handled by the ubuntu sponsors team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<coolbhavi> explains the details
<coolbhavi> so with this brief background lets get started into setting up a devel environment
<coolbhavi> :)
<coolbhavi> So assuming that everyone has the required components of the repositories enabled (mainly universe and main) Type this in a terminal: sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends bzr-builddeb ubuntu-dev-tools fakeroot build-essential gnupg pbuilder debhelper
<coolbhavi> so it should pull in all the stuff basically required to setup ubuntu devel environment
<coolbhavi> like debhelper is used as a helper package to create debian packages and ubuntu-dev-tools is a collection of various useful tools such as grab-merge.sh for example is a semi-automatic script for merging debian package onto ubuntu :)
<coolbhavi> these were just examples of some of the packages we are installing right now
<coolbhavi> lets move on and setup your gpg-key used for signing the package and uploading in simple terms
<coolbhavi> (which also ensures that people with the right archive access uploads the package thus preventing accidental unauthorized uploads)
<coolbhavi> so please run in a terminal gpg --gen-key (If you havent had a gpg key yet)
<coolbhavi>  sticking to the defaults should be fine enough like you need not have to type in a comment for your key
<coolbhavi> If by chance if anyone gets stuck at this phase there is always an excellent howto here which you can bookmark https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<coolbhavi> so moving on the key when its in generation stage it requires some system activity to be done so please play music or type on keyboard or do anything you wish to gain entropy :)
<coolbhavi> next once the key is generated you need to upload it to launchpad
<coolbhavi> here type gpg --list-keys now and copy the key fingerprint to https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys upon success you will get a confirmation mail having encrypted info of the key
<coolbhavi> if your mail client supports gpg then just decrypt and follow the procedure or just download the text and run gpg -d on the file
<coolbhavi> (If you have a gpg key please skip the above)
<coolbhavi> Next up and the most important thing is setting up pbuilder which is a pristine minimal chroot environment to build debian packages
<coolbhavi> please open an editor and edit the file ~/.pbuilderrc (create if you don't have it yet)
<coolbhavi> and paste this: COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
<coolbhavi> next save the file and run sudo pbuilder create
<coolbhavi> This will take a lot of time so its better to have some walk around in the park and come back :)
<coolbhavi> so that should setup your pbuilder :) to setup pbuilder for the current development version i.e oneiric please type sudo pbuilder update --distribution oneiric --override-config
<coolbhavi> so that should setup a minimal pristine environment to build and test packages wrt oneiric
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<coolbhavi> last but not the least: If you are using the bash shell, which is the default, please edit ~/.bashrc
<coolbhavi> and please type something like DEBFULLNAME="Bhavani Shankar" DEBEMAIL="bhavi@ubuntu.com" and save it
<coolbhavi> PS: please use your own name :)
<coolbhavi> so once you are done editing and adding the above to the last line of the file please run   source ~/. bashrc  (it's only needed once to pick up the new bash variables)
<coolbhavi> So that should set your box as a dev box to get your contribution to ubuntu development up and running :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<coolbhavi> since there are 5 more minutes.. Any questions welcome :)
 * jcastro jiggles the classbot
<jcastro> Ok awesome
<jcastro> how is everyone today
<jcastro> this last session is going to be an Introduction to Unity
<coolbhavi> okay guys I m done :) thanks for attending :) If you have any questions I'll be around on the irc on weekends or you can catch me up on facebook @ facebook.com/bshankar or mail me @ bhavi@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> I'll wait a minute for the latecomers
<jcastro> nice job coolbhavi!
<coolbhavi> oops sorry jcastro for interrupting :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Unity - Instructors: jcastro
<jcastro> no worries, high five!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> ok so let's get started
<jcastro> I'm your host, jorge, and I'll be running a session on an introduction to unity
<jcastro> I've got a ton of information to share with you folks
<jcastro> so I'm going to spiel for a little bit
<jcastro> and then I can just take your questions on unity directly
<jcastro> so let's start with the basics
<jcastro> Unity is a desktop shell that runs on top of GNOME: http://unity.ubuntu.com/
<jcastro> it's the default desktop for 11.04
<jcastro> and is built using technologies from compiz, gnome, and zeitgeist
<jcastro> A great "new user" intro was done by the OMG Ubuntu folks here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/natty/
<jcastro> and I myself have put together a Unity power user's guide here: http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
<jcastro> the most common question is
<jcastro> what exactly is all this stuff
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/10228/whats-the-right-terminology-for-unitys-ui-elements/19166#19166
<jcastro> so "unity" as a whole is the sum of these parts
<jcastro> a launcher, a panel, and what we call the dash and lenses
<jcastro> for novice users unity is pretty simple to use
<jcastro> you click firefox and go to facebook, and that's mostly it. :)
<jcastro> but for people like us Unity has some nice features that I'd like to share
<jcastro> the first is the use of keyboard shortcuts to multitask in Unity
<jcastro> I did an entire presentation on how to effectively use Unity to launch and manage applications: http://castrojo.blip.tv/file/4997614/
<jcastro> I recommend you watch that video
<jcastro> people are also starting to put together some pretty amazing quicklists for unity: http://askubuntu.com/questions/35488/which-custom-unity-launchers-and-quicklists-do-you-use
<jcastro> which allow you to customize what menu items show up when you right click on a launcher
<jcastro> and of course, for people who want to customize their  unity set up
<jcastro> we have a tool called ccsm that does that: http://askubuntu.com/questions/29553/how-can-i-configure-unity
<jcastro> this is where you can do things like resize the launcher
<jcastro> and turn the backlight settings on and off, and mess with the animation
<jcastro> this is also where you can choose to have the launcher not autohide
<jcastro> by default the launcher does what we call "intellihide"
<jcastro> which means when there's nothing on your screen that you're using
<jcastro> we show the launcher
<jcastro> but if you move a window over to it or maximize a window the launcher hides until you press up against the left of the screen
<jcastro> we also have a plethora of keyboard shortcuts
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/unity-keyboard-mouse-shortcuts
<jcastro> these are my favorite feature
<jcastro> since in the past we didn't really use the Super key
<jcastro> now I have my launcher order in a certain way
<jcastro> so that super-1 always launcher my file manager, super-2 is always the browser, and super-3 is my mail program
<jcastro> so that when I set up my computer when I log in, it's trivial for me to launch all my favorite apps
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so, those are the basics
<jcastro> how I find myself using unity is like so
<jcastro> I usually just find myself hitting the super key (this is commonly the windows key on most keyboards)
<jcastro> and typing what I want
<jcastro> this is similar to how gnome-do works if you've ever used that tool
<jcastro> so as I type unity just searches for what I want
<jcastro> so if I want libreoffice
<jcastro> I can just hit super and start typing libreoffice
<jcastro> and then unity matches as I type and I can hit enter and it launches
<jcastro> but we do more than app names, we do descriptions
<jcastro> so if you type "text" unity shows you the text editor and libreoffice writer
<jcastro> so you can super+"text" and then use the arrow keys to navigate the results and just hit enter
<jcastro> and we do this for your files too
<jcastro> Powered by Zeitgeist(tm)
<jcastro> ok, so that's how I use Unity, let me go ahead and open it up to questions
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is it called Unity?
<jcastro> that's a good question for Mark on Wednesday, but I've heard him mention that it's the unity of netbook/laptop/desktop/tablet interfaces
<jcastro> (Feel free to start asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<jcastro> just preface them with QUESTION: so the bot can pick them up
<ClassBot> TonyP18 asked: If I run on the Natty live CD I get full 3D unity, but when I upgraded to 11.04 the best I can get is 2D.  Why is this?
<jcastro> not sure why that is, you need to ensure that you've installed the right drivers after you install
<jcastro> this can be accomplished by running "Additional Drivers" from the classic mode
<jcastro> then it will fetch what it needs, and you reboot and go back into unity, if that doesn't work please file a bug
<ClassBot> bugslayr asked: what I miss most is "focus follows mouse". The menu in the tope the application menues back to the window or window decoration? panel does not work with it. is it possible to mov
<jcastro> right now there are some problems with focus follows mouse
<jcastro> there is a bug report somewhere on launchpad that tracks that progress (I can't find it right now but a good google search on site:bugs.launchpad.net/unity should find it)
<ClassBot> Nekhelesh90 asked: I have some feature requests, some that I may like to also code. How do I get my point across to the developers?
<jcastro> you can talk about unity on the ayatana mailing list.
<jcastro> as far as coding your own features, feel free to file them on launchpad and start implementing them and proposing them to unity.
<jcastro> though it's probably best if you file the bugs first and get feedback before starting to write them
<jcastro> I have instructions here on how to get started hacking on Unity: http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/
<jcastro> !q
<ClassBot> roasted asked: I have a dual screen desktop. I cannot get Unity to be placed on the left side of my right monitor (which is my main). Will there be a patch soon to make it allowable for me to have the Unity bar on the left side of my right monitor?
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> this bug is absolutely on neil's radar
<jcastro> he's looking at it this week and maybe next week
<jcastro> currently if you main monitor is on the right then it's not a very good user experience. :)
<jcastro> I have my main on the left so I didn't even notice until someone filed a bug
<jcastro> but yeah, that sucks, he's working on it, sorry about that
<ClassBot> pali asked: Unity is just gnome-do + dock?
<jcastro> well, not really
<jcastro> it's an evolution of "what if we took the guys that did gnome do, docky, awn, and cairo dock and took all the lessons they learned and did it integrated with the window manager"
<jcastro> (The DX team comprises of members who started all those projects)
<jcastro> though David Siegel moved on to a startup (he started GNOME Do)
<ClassBot> roasted asked: What are the licensing restrictions of Unity? Is it possible we might see other distros easily adopt Unity, such as opensuse, Fedora, and Mint? Or is Unity somehow bound to Ubuntu only (or with penalty if other distros pick it up)??
<jcastro> Unity is 100% Free Software
<jcastro> (not sure of the exact licenses of each file, but I think GPL3)
<jcastro> anyone is able to take Unity and do what they want with it
<jcastro> (Do note that everything in Ubuntu by default as shipped on the CD has to be free software, other than exceptions made for drivers)
<ClassBot> uuser2323 asked: Is there a "Show Desktop" button in Unity and if so where?
<jcastro> there is no button for this in unity
<jcastro> however there are 2 work arounds
<jcastro> the first is the keyboard shortcut, Super-D
<jcastro> the other is putting one on the launcher itself
<jcastro> http://askubuntu.com/questions/29969/is-there-a-unity-equivalent-of-the-gnome-panel-show-desktop-applet
<jcastro> which unfortunately you have to do by hand
<ClassBot> roasted asked: will Unity 2D get the same customizable features as Unity 3D currently has? Right now, Unity 2D disables the Unity plugin in CCSM, so I cannot do *anything* such as resizing icons, etc.
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> Unity 2D and 3D are supposed to have feature-to-feature parity
<jcastro> this will likely happen for 11.10, but as Unity 2d isn't on the CD and not as the default (other than ARM hardware) it's not /exactly/ the same as 3D
<jcastro> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/ubuntu-unity-2d-tweaking-tool-lets-you-adjust-the-launcher-dash-enable-compositing/
<jcastro> check that out though
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Currently Unity is not that customisable, when it uses Gnome 3 underneath for 11.10 is it likely to become much more customisable or is this more of a design thing?
<jcastro> this is more of a design thing, we'll know next week during UDS
<ClassBot> roasted asked: You just mentioned "everything on the Ubuntu CD has to be free software when it is shipped." Why is this? Is this Ubuntu's philosophy that they're living by or is this some sort of legal issue that requires them to do so?
<jcastro> Yes
<jcastro> this is a fundamental belief in Ubuntu
<jcastro> we call this the Ubuntu Promise: http://www.ubuntu.com/project
<ClassBot> Nekhelesh90 asked: An introduction to Unity should be shown in the desktop after the installation of ubuntu to help users. Is this planned for the future (like in Oneric)?
<jcastro> Not sure, but yes, I agree completely, we'll be discussing things like this in a week
<jcastro> so keep an eye out for progress during the ubuntu developer summit here: http://uds.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> roasted asked: Jcastro, you mentioned something about "that's a good question for Mark on Wednesday." Is he coming by to discuss Unity as well? If so, what time?
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> wednesday at 1400 UTC
<jcastro> hah, more questions! I'm out!
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: What's your personal favorite feature in Unity? :)
<jcastro> the keyboard shortcuts, by far. :)
<jcastro> that just hitting super and typing
<jcastro> it's like in the old days search engines were indexes
<jcastro> and you had to find a category
<jcastro> and then a sub category
<jcastro> and then find what you want
<jcastro> like old Yahoo
<jcastro> and then google came out and then you just type what you want and you get it
<jcastro> that's what I love about the search thing in the dash
<ClassBot> Nekhelesh90 asked: super-D actually pulls up the panel launcher too, that is really annoying, anyway we can disable that ?
<jcastro> There's a threshold for holding down super to invoke the launcher
<jcastro> you might need to hit it faster
<jcastro> or set minimize in compiz to be a different keyboard shortcut
<jcastro> I got so used to ctrl-alt-d that that's what I still use today actually
<ClassBot> jrgifford asked: Does Unity *require* compiz?
<jcastro> yes, Unity is actually nothing more than a fancy compiz plugin
<ClassBot> Nekhelesh90 asked: Are the new lens which are in development be available through the ubuntu software center officially?(Without the need to add any PPA)
<jcastro> actually we are working right now on putting the askubuntu lens in extras.ubuntu.com
<jcastro> which will do what you want
<jcastro> but right now since 11.04 is so new many lenses are fast-moving, but I hope to collect the good ones and put them in extras.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> hardfire asked: what about gnoem3, what happens to it. The whole thing breaks if we try installing gnome3
<jcastro> right, currently right now unity and 11.04 is gnome 2.x based
<jcastro> like if you log into the classic session it's gnome 2.32
<jcastro> now that GNOME3 is out and Unity is in Ubuntu for 11.10 we'll be migrating the distro to GNOME and GTK3, this includes building Unity on GNOME3 tech
<jcastro> so for 11.10 we should have moved to GNOME3 tech, which will let us have a better GNOME3 experience in 11.10
<jcastro> right now unfortunately it's either GNOME2 or GNOME3 in the archive as we're in a transitionary period
<jcastro> which is why the GNOME3 PPA is basically a "1 way upgrade"
<ClassBot> roasted asked: Unity is based on Gnome. Which version of Gnome? 2 or 3?
<jcastro> GNOME2 stuff
<jcastro> it's mostly ready to be compiled on GNOME3 stuff, BAMF just needs a bit of work and it's ready to go
<jcastro> the DX team built it in mind knowing that GNOME3 was coming
<ClassBot> roasted asked: Will Ubuntu always ship with the Gnome Classic option? I ask this because there are instances I like to use the GUI'd Ubuntu on a server. I love Unity, but it doesn't scream "server interface" to me, so having the classic option might be nice.
<jcastro> This release will likely be the last release with the classic GNOME 2.x interface, for 11.10 you'll have Unity as default and Unity-2d for those with driver problems or slower computers
<jcastro> unfortunately the GNOME 2 interface is unmaintained, she did serve us well for 7 years though
<jcastro> but it's OSS, it's possible someone could just maintain the old panels if there's interest
<ClassBot> Nekhelesh90 asked: Where can I find easy examples of unity lens coding?
<jcastro> oooh
<jcastro> good question
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/Lenses
<jcastro> I've got a whole guide here
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/Lenses/Ideas
<jcastro> ^^ and ideas people would like to see in lenses
<jcastro> that second page has links to other lenses that people are working on
<jcastro> a python lens is about ~350 lines of code, so it's quite easy to just grab someone else's lens and adapt it to your own
<jcastro> and here is a list of lenses: http://askubuntu.com/questions/38772/what-lenses-for-unity-are-available
<jcastro> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/five-neat-unity-lenses-in-development/
<jcastro> and another list from OMG to give you an idea of how those are coming along
<ClassBot> roasted asked: So while Unity is currently based on Gnome2, it'll soon be ported to Gnome3. Is this something expected for 11.10? If so, are there any expected issues with the platform changes or would this be a smooth transition?
<jcastro> like all major releases it will be a ton of work
<jcastro> but we have some very experienced GNOME hackers on our team, so it'll be fine
<jcastro> keeping in mind that a ton of work has already been done in the PPA
<jcastro> we just need to start moving that into the archive
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What's BAMF?
<jcastro> https://launchpad.net/bamf
<jcastro> BAMF is a window matching framework
<jcastro> it's the tool that tells you "oh this window is firefox, this one is the terminal"
<jcastro> and allows us to match them and show them right on the launcher
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why did you do guest blog enteries about Unity on OMGUbuntu?
<jcastro> Why not?
<ClassBot> roasted asked: While the transition to Gnome3 for Unity is on the horizon, will there be any additional features or benefits from moving to Gnome3, besides "future proofing" yourselves?
<jcastro> good question
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> we can drop a ton of old junk from the CD
<jcastro> like the old panel
<jcastro> (which was fine when it was designed in early 2000's)
<jcastro> but not as awesome when it comes to like, multiple monitors
<jcastro> touch friendlyness
<jcastro> and adjusting to changing resolution on the fly
<ClassBot> roasted asked: Unity by definition is what... a shell to Gnome 2/3? That being said, does it fall under the same category as Gnome Shell does? Does GS/Unity have the same relationship to Gnome?
<jcastro> yep, that's exactly it.
<jcastro> but -shell is the official shell of upstream GNOME.
<jcastro> now gnome3 is out you'll notice that upstream gnome doesn't mention GNOME3 and GNOME Shell as seperate things
<jcastro> the whole thing is now "GNOME 3"
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I guess you blogged about Unity on OMGUbuntu since it's a very popular Ubuntu website at the moment. What do you think about it by the way?
<jcastro> I like it, I like all ubuntu blogs
<jcastro> I dig webup8, askubuntu, and the ubuntu subreddit
<ClassBot> obengdako asked: what type of themes are we to expect in Unity, i used a Mac theme in Gnome2 and would love the same window decorations.?
<jcastro> right now it's really just 2 themes
<jcastro> the dark one and the light grey one
<jcastro> and even then the launcher itself doesn't theme
<jcastro> but some people are using icon themes like faenza on it
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> unfortunately this isn't something I know much about, so you'll have to wait until after we're further along in 11.10 to find out what the plan is (I also have no idea)
<ClassBot> roasted asked: I can't help but to wonder, despite the open source nature of "everybody is free and equal", has there been any tension with working with Gnome developers since Unity is basically a shell fork, independent and separate of Gnome Shell, which is clearly Gnome's "baby" for the future?
<jcastro> this really depends on what you think "tension" means
<jcastro> for some people this is all controversial and drama filled
<jcastro> for others it's just business as usual and they hack on what they love.
<jcastro> Ubuntu and Canonical are still heavily invested in GNOME
<jcastro> we are part of the GNOME Advisory Board and we participate in GNOME events and hackfests
<jcastro> and provide GNOME with infrastructure support
<jcastro> and we will continue to do so in the future
<ClassBot> obengdako asked: would Gnome3 support theming?
<jcastro> I am not sure, I'm not a GNOME 3 pro but iirc it's all just JS and CSS
<ClassBot> Grillmeister asked: Since the release of Ubuntu 11.04 the download link of the netbook edition via torrent is broken: http://releases.ubuntu.com/11.04/ubuntu-11.04-netbook-i386.iso.torrent  - When do you think this will get fixed?
<jcastro> netbook edition no longer exists!
<jcastro> we just have "Ubuntu" and "Ubuntu Server" now
<jcastro> and we kind of dropped the edition thing
<jcastro> the normal ISO works on both desktops and netbooks
<jcastro> the baseline for unity performance is a dell mini 1010, where  unity rocks it at 60fps
<jcastro> I have time for like 2 more questions!
<ClassBot> roasted asked: Is there more of these chats scheduled in the future besides the one you told me about coming up Weds?
<jcastro> we have them all week, Open Week is usually the week after release
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> and we have other IRC workshops, you can find the list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<jcastro> and you can also run your own!
<jcastro> ok so in closing
<jcastro> I hope you give unity a shot
<jcastro> if you're a developer, please dive in
<jcastro> we could always use a hand
<jcastro> and remember my power guide here, and tell a friend! http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
<jcastro> thanks so much for coming out!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<linuxfreaker_> Hi
<linuxfreaker_> When is Ubuntu Devloper Summit 2011 for 11.10
<sebsebseb> linuxfreaker_: next week
<linuxfreaker_> okie
<linuxfreaker_> What are the new features being discussed in the UDS
<linuxfreaker_> any link for listed new proposed features expected ?
<sebsebseb> linuxfreaker_: there will be some blue prints up already I think
<sebsebseb> linuxfreaker_: and you should be able to take part in some of the session remotly next week I guess, but after UDS, is when the proper plans come up,  and during that time
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-03
<booleanorama> hello
<Liera> Good afternoon everyone!
<bullgard4> Where can I find the logs of yesterday's classes?
<nigelb> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/02/
<nigelb> look for #ubuntu-classroom in there
<bullgard4> nigelb: Thank you very much for your help.
<nigelb> :)
<der_matti> Moin
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Getting Started Translating Ubuntu - Instructors: dpm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dpm> hello everyone!
<dpm> Welcome to the first session on the second day of Ubuntu Open Week
<dpm> let's wait for a couple of minutes for people to come in...
<dpm> we're going to talk about something very exciting today: Ubuntu translations
<dpm> I've reserved some time at the end of the session for questions,
<dpm> but if you've got any question during the session, please feel free to ask
<dpm> just prepend it with QUESTION: and post it on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel
<dpm> so let's start with presentations first ;)
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator at Canonical, in the Community team
<dpm> there I have the pleasure to work with Ubuntu legends such as Jorge Castro, Daniel Holbach, Ahmed Kamal and least but not last our fearless leader, Jono Bacon.
<dpm> and also very importantly, I get to work with the not less legendary Ubuntu translation teams
<dpm> So be very welcome to this session on Ubuntu Translations, where we'll see
<dpm> how Ubuntu can be translated into almost any language,
<dpm> the work of our awesome translation teams,
<dpm> how Launchpad can be used to translate Ubuntu in a distributed manner,
<dpm> and how to get started translating Ubuntu
<dpm> You can also follow this presentation through the slides at:
<dpm> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/Presentations/UOW-Ubuntu-Translations.pdf
<dpm> So, without further ado...
<dpm> Benvinguts, Willkommen, Bienvenidos, ãããã, Welcome, íìí©ëë¤, Bem-vindo, Ongietorri, à¦¸à§à¦¬à¦¾à¦à¦¤à¦®, Welkom, MirÃ« se erdhÃ«t, BienllegÃ¡u, á¥áá³á á°áá áá¡, ÐÑÑÐ°ÐµÐ¼, ÙØ±Ø­Ø¨Ø§, Dobro doÅ¡li, Donedigezh vat, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐµ Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, æ­¡è¿, DobrodoÅ¡li, æ¬¢è¿, Velkommen, Welkom, Bonvenon, Tere tulemast, Tervetuloa, Bienvenue, Wolkom, Benvido, ÎÎ±Î»ÏÏ Î®ÏÎ¸Î±ÏÎµ, ××¨×××× ×××××, ÃdvÃ¶zÃ¶ljÃ¼k, Ve
<dpm> lkomin, Selamat Datang, Benvenuti, à²¸à³à²¸à³à²µà²¾à²à²¤, WitÃ´j, ÒÐ¾Ñ ÐºÐµÐ»Ð´ÑÒ£ÑÐ·, Esiet sveicinÄti, Sveiki, Selamat Datang, à¤¸à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤à¤¤à¤®à¥, Velkomen, Benvenguda, Witamy, Bun venit, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°ÑÑ, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, Vitajte, VÃ¤lkommen, à®¨à®²à¯à®µà®°à®µà¯, à¸¢à¸´à¸à¸à¸µà¸à¹à¸­à¸à¸£à¸±à¸, HoÅgeldiniz, ÐÐ°ÑÐºÐ°Ð²Ð¾ Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¸Ð¼Ð¾, Ø®ÙØ´ Ø¢ÙØ¯ÛØ¯, ChÃ o má»«ng, ÙÛØ±Ú¾Ø§Ø¨Ø§ !!!
<dpm> (if I've forgotten to welcome in your language, do write a big "welcome" in #ubuntu-classroom chat, and I'll include it here too :)
<dpm> Ubuntu has a very diverse community, and one of the aspects this diversity is directly reflected is in the number of languages it is translated into, and the communities built around them.
<dpm> "Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice" lies at the very core of the Ubuntu philosophy
<dpm> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
<dpm> which is why we encourage the creation of translation communities and provide them resources to ease the process of translation into their own language
<dpm> so that anyone, without requiring advanced technical skills, can start contributing from day one.
<dpm> So let's try to answer some basic questions...
<dpm> oh, I meant I was going to answer some questions, but we've got one already from the audience :)
<ClassBot> bullgard4 asked: Into how many languages is Ubuntu translated?
<dpm> Ubuntu is fully translated into 43 languages. However, there are many, many more in which the translation can be considered good. Here you can see the detailed statistics:
<dpm> http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/stats/ubuntu-11.04-translation-stats.html
<dpm> so hopefully this session will help you guys make that list grow ;)
<dpm> anyway, back to talking about basic questions:
<dpm> ======================
<dpm> Who translates Ubuntu?
<dpm> ======================
<dpm> That's an easy one: Ubuntu Translators.
<dpm> They are volunteers who organise themselves in translation teams, appointed to be responsible for the translation of a given language.
<dpm> And they just rock
<dpm> You can see the full list of Ubuntu translation teams here:
<dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> We've currently got about 150, of about 220 registered languages for Ubuntu in Launchpad, our online translation tool
<dpm> So if there isn't an Ubuntu translation team for your language, now is the chance to create one :)
<dpm> But more on that later
<dpm> Also very important to mention is the work of upstream translators, whose effort Ubuntu benefits greatly from.
<dpm> Ubuntu includes the best-of-breed Open Source software of the many independent projects available, which is what we call upstream.
<dpm> Translations are no exception, and if these upstream projects are translated outside of Ubuntu, we import and use the awesome work of upstream translators
<dpm> Let's see some numbers about our amazing translations community:
<dpm> nearly 18.000 translators who've submitted at least one translation,
<dpm> coming from more than 240 countries.
<dpm> A default Ubuntu installation contains about 160.000 translatable messages,
<dpm> which can go up to 475.000 when adding applications not installed by default such as GIMP, Inkscape, etc.
<dpm> And here's an overview of how well translated Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty Narwhal) is in each language:
<dpm>   http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/stats/ubuntu-11.04-translation-stats.html
<dpm> same link as before
<dpm> So you see that there's a lot of work to do, and _you_ can help in making Ubuntu better supported in your language.
<dpm> Let's see how...
<dpm> =========================
<dpm> How is Ubuntu translated?
<dpm> =========================
<dpm> We use our very own translations tool: Launchpad Translations
<dpm> Launchpad Translations allows you to easily translate projects online
<dpm> and seamlessly build and organise translation communities around them.
<dpm> It also allows translating Operating Systems, Ubuntu being the most evident example.
<dpm> You can start translating Ubuntu here:
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<dpm> There you'll see a list of translatable applications and documentation, ordered by priority and ready to translate
<dpm> Take some time to look at the list, I'm sure this will bring questions later on :-)
<dpm> Alternatively, you can go directly to translatable applications in Launchpad from your desktop.
<dpm> If you've been following the slides, you'll see how to do it on slide #6
<dpm> If you open an application and go to Help > Translate this application...,
<dpm> your browser will be started and it will take you to the Launchpad Translations page for that application.
<dpm> Which is pretty neat
<dpm> You can try this: open Gedit, go to "Help > Translate this application..." and see it for yourself.
<dpm> On the browser window that opens you can start submitting translation suggestions from day one.
<dpm> This will take you to the translation page in your preferred language
<dpm> which you can then click on and you'll see the list of translatable applications
<dpm> your language in Launchpad
<dpm> *for your language in Launchpad
<dpm> using the standard translations terminology, these are called 'translation templates', or just 'templates'
<dpm> and are the translatable units translators work with
<dpm> I'd really recommend you to try to using Launchpad for online translation
<dpm> it is really easy and flexible
<dpm> and it allows saving your work, even before it is reviewed, facilitating the QA work
<dpm> that said, if you prefer translating offline, Launchpad Translations is flexible enough to let you download PO files (text files used for translations)
<dpm> to be used in offline translation tools
<dpm> but that's material for another presentation
<dpm> Let's move on...
<dpm> =====================
<dpm> How can I contribute?
<dpm> =====================
<dpm> As in any Open Source project, communication is key for collaboration.
<dpm> and translations are no different
<dpm> While everyone can submit translation suggestions in Launchpad,
<dpm> (well, everyone with a Launchpad account)
<dpm> We do not only want to provide the best translated OS, but also the best quality of translations.
<dpm> So we also encourage translation teams to communicate through any means appropriate
<dpm> most teams use a mailing list
<dpm> but others also forums, IRC, etc.
<dpm> and most of them have also got a wiki page in the Ubuntu namespace
<dpm> where they coordinate their work
<dpm> just as an example:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCatalanTranslators
<dpm> With all that I mean that while the first step in contributing is to submit translation suggestions,
<dpm> at https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
<dpm> the next step in contributing to Ubuntu Translations is to get in touch with the translation team for your language,
<dpm> and tell them you'd like to contribute.
<dpm> It's easy: you can just find them on
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> On that page, you can just click on the links under the "Team/Supervisor" column and they will take you to the Launchpad page for the team
<dpm> You see that finding the language is quite simple, it's on the column on the left
<dpm> and most translation teams are named
<dpm> "Ubuntu <language> translators"
<dpm> where <language> is the name of the language they translate into
<dpm> on their Launchpad page you'll find all the info you'll need to get in touch with them
<dpm> As an example:
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-it
<dpm> If there isn't a team for your language yet, you should definitely start one
<dpm> You can do it by following these simple steps:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
<dpm> it is a one-off step, which shouldn't take long
<dpm> and after the new team has been appointed, you can start translating in Launchpad straight away
<dpm> If that step gets too technical for you, do not worry
<dpm> You can always get in touch with the global translations community and ask for help or advice, which is always a good idea
<dpm> Also if you want to start any discussion on Ubuntu Translations
<dpm> In true Ubuntu spirit, everyone is welcome there, and you'll get to know lots of interesting people from all over the globe :)
<dpm> Here's how to get in touch with the global translations community:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact
<dpm> And while you have a look at that, we'll enter the last part of this session
<dpm> ===
<dpm> Q&A
<dpm> ===
<dpm> So I hope that that gave you a taste of how translation works in Ubuntu and how you can join our awesome translators.
<dpm> Now feel free to ask any questions about anything related to translations.
<dpm> Bring them on! ;-)
<ClassBot> brousch asked: Is a presentation about offline translations and .po files scheduled? If so, when will it be?
<dpm> I don't have any planned right now, but it might be a good idea. However, I'd very much recommend to translate online to get your translations accepted straight away without having to wait
<dpm> That said, if you've got any questions about offline translation
<dpm> I'll be happy to answer them here :)
<ClassBot> brousch asked: How do you recruit translators?
<dpm> that's actually a very good question
<dpm> it really depends on the translation team and how it works
<dpm> but there are a few best practice tips that can be helpful for recruiting new contributors for your language:
<dpm> * create a dedicated translation team in your loco
<dpm> * set up a mailing list or another channel for communication
<dpm> * set up translation goals for the team
<dpm> * keep the communication flowing
<dpm> * organize translation events: a good idea is to organize translation jams during the Ubuntu Global Jam
<dpm> they are extremely helpful to meet new people and mentor them on how to start translating Ubuntu
<dpm> * promote your translation effort: encourage people to participate by blogging and communicating about it
<dpm> * Organize regular IRC translation jams or meetings with your team
<dpm> These are just a few that come to mind, which can be helpful in keeping a healthy translation team
<ClassBot> kkitano asked: Are the majority of ubuntu translators translating into their native languages, or is there also a mix of translators who are not native speakers but are fluent in another language or who have studied it?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> Most of the Ubuntu translators I know are native speakers, but I also know of cases of non-native speakers that are part of a translation team. In the latter case, though, they need to be very fluent in the language
<ClassBot> uuser2233 asked: Is there any particular reason as to why there is one language package for all software preinstalled on ubuntu and not seperate ones like for the rest?
<dpm> in fact, there are at least 3 language packs for each language (base, kde and gnome), but let me answer the question without entering into much detail:
<dpm> having separate language packs from the main applications
<dpm> allow us to do something unique amongst Linux distros: deliver regular updates of translations that can be kept separate of applications
<dpm> This makes it much easier to provide frequent translation updates without having to reupload a big number of packages, with all the overhead that this would involve
<ClassBot> jibel asked: What's the process if, as a user, I find an error with a translation for my language.
<dpm> excellent question :)
<dpm> You can do either of these:
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> a) Directly contact the translation team for the language and give them a heads up so that they can fix it.
<dpm> (You can find the contact data for all teams at https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators, as mentioned earlier)
<dpm> or
<dpm> b) You can file a bug against the ubuntu-translations project,
<dpm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+filebug/
<dpm> There we'll assign it to the right translation team,
<dpm> who'll be notified about it and be able to fix it in Launchpad
<dpm> Members of the bugsquad can easily assign the bug to the corresponding ubuntu-l10n-<language> team too
<dpm> Ok, so no more time left
<dpm> thanks a lot for your participation
<dpm> your excellent questions, and see you on the next Ubuntu Open Week!
<dpm> I'll now leave you in the expert hands of xdatap and Having Fun With Ubuntu Testing.
<xdatap> dpm, Thank you very much David :)
<xdatap> Hi everybody, thanks for coming!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Having Fun With Ubuntu Testing - Instructors: xdatap
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<xdatap> My name is Paolo Sammicheli, I'm an Ubuntu member from the Italian LoCo Team, and today we'll talk about ISO Testing.
<xdatap> Let's start with the most important question:
<xdatap> Why should one try to test Ubuntu?
<xdatap> Because it's fun!
<xdatap> because it's a valuable contribution to Ubuntu
<xdatap> and because you will learn a lot of things :)
<xdatap> Let's see, now, how to test Ubuntu!
<xdatap> You might already know that Ubuntu has a 6-month release cycle, which means that every 6 months we have a new Ubuntu release.
<xdatap> Less known is the fact that, before the final release, several development releases are launched: ALPHAs and BETAs.
<xdatap> Every cycle slightly changes his schedule, due several reason, but it's published since the beginning in a wiki page, so that everybody can be aware about what's going on.
<xdatap> You can see the Natty schedule on the following link:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<xdatap> For all these releases, we have several kind of tests.
<xdatap> The ISO Test is a test performed few days before the milestone release on the big files you use to burn an Ubuntu CD (called ISO Images),
<xdatap> in which we want to be sure that the installer works properly and the live version starts correctly.
<xdatap> We also test the upgrade process and the installation from windows with Wubi.
<xdatap> The tool for reporting this kind of test is called ISO Tracker and it's available on the following link:
<xdatap> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<xdatap> (go take a look at it, I will wait 2 minutes)
<xdatap> As you can see last week we were testing Natty final release in all the officially supported flavors.
<xdatap> For each flavor you can find several test case.
<xdatap> A test case is a list of actions to perform in order to complete the test.
<xdatap> Often you can find bugs which does NOT make FAIL your test, but it's useful that you report it on launchpad and you include their IDs in the test report.
<xdatap> You can see how to report a test on the following link:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
<xdatap> As described on the page above, filling your account on the ISO Tracker with your email and selecting the Email notification flag you will get an email each time there's a new image available for tests.
<xdatap> You can choose which test case you want to test in which image so the email will contain the direct links for the test.
<xdatap> To avoid to download the image every time I recommend to use zsync or rsync, as described on the following link:
<xdatap> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ZsyncCdImage
<xdatap> ISO Testing it's not the only test we perform over the CD Images.
<xdatap> We have also different test programs like Laptop, Video Drivers, Desktop, etc.
<xdatap> primes2h, who just entered in the channel is the rockstar who wrote the patches for the Laptop Tracker. He's another member of the Italian LoCo Team, :)
<xdatap> What's the difference between these programs? Basically it changes WHAT we test and WHEN.
<xdatap> One example: Laptop testing perform tests after each Milestone release and with the previous stable releases providing testcases for the hardware compatibility:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Laptop
<xdatap> (take a look to the link, I'll wait 2 minutes)
<xdatap> Xorg tested the nVidia Video Card Proprietary Drivers (almost) every week:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/ProprietaryDrivers/Natty/WeeklyProgram
<xdatap> Once you learn how to contribute to one program, like ISO Testing, you will be able to easily contribute to all of these tests because the tools are the same.
<xdatap> If you are involved in a LoCo and you're interested in ISO Testing take also a look at the LoCo Testing Team How To:
<xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/LoCoTeam
<xdatap> (2 minutes for allowing you to read the link)
<xdatap> How it works? You can setup a team inside your LoCo, choose a test to "adopt" and then divide the effort with your team members.
<xdatap> The Italian experience shown that organizing this kind of activity helps in gathering new contributors and keeping them motivated.
<xdatap> Take a look on the survey I made before last UDS in Orlando, you will find very interesting data about it:
<xdatap> http://xdatap1.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/italian-loco-testing-team-survey/
<xdatap> The Ubuntu Hall of Fame shows test results per LoCo, so it's nice to play a competition between LoCo in testing:
<xdatap> http://hall-of-fame.ubuntu.com
<xdatap> So, how to start with ISO Testing?
<xdatap> Take a look at the QA Website (http://qa.ubuntu.com)
<xdatap> and at the Testing page:
<xdatap> http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/
<xdatap> Join the QA Mailing List (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa)
<xdatap> and for any question you will find us in the #ubuntu-testing IRC Channel.
<xdatap> Ubuntu Testing: Let's make this rock!
<xdatap> :)
<xdatap> Time for questions
<xdatap> you can ask questions joining the channel #ubuntu-classroom-chat and writing: "QUESTION: bla bla bla"
<ClassBot> effie_jayx asked: How do you manage language barrier?, if it is an issue at all...
<xdatap> yes it's a big issue
<xdatap> the idea of a LoCo team comes from the idea that mentoring newcomers in their language helps a lot
<xdatap> so, we started with the idea of a mentoring team, and then we also wanted to have a "team spirit" and we introduced the adoption
<xdatap> reporting a bug is the biggest issue. If someone is not sure about what to write we ask to send an email in our mailing list and then we translate the description replying to the list
<xdatap> people who started to be more sure and expert about the test process and how to report a bug tend to overcome the language barrier, btw
<xdatap> but this is an issue, no doubt
<xdatap> any other question?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<xdatap> ok, It looks like the time is over.
<xdatap> Thanks everybody for coming
<xdatap> Next session is "Getting involved via the Beginners Team"
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<xdatap> jledbetter, the class is your :)
<jledbetter> xdatap, Thank you. I'll give people a couple of more minutes till I begin. :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Getting Involved via the Beginners Team - Instructors: jledbetter
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jledbetter> First, thank you everyone for joining me today!
<jledbetter> I'm Jessica, a member of the Ubuntu Beginners Team, as well as a few other projects in Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> If you'd like to know more about me, here's my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jledbetter.
<jledbetter> Today, I'm going to go over what the Ubuntu Beginners Team is, how it helps others, how you can help others through it, and also about its focus groups.
<jledbetter> Feel free to ask questions at anytime by typing in #ubuntu-classroom-chat QUESTION: question.
<jledbetter> For example:
<jledbetter> QUESTION: Which animal is better: Meerkat or Narwhal?
<jledbetter> ===What is the Beginners Team?===
<jledbetter> The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users into becoming part of the global Ubuntu community.
<jledbetter> So, whether you are a non-technical user or a power user, the Ubuntu community has a place where you can contribute and make a difference in Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> ===How to help===
<jledbetter> People looking for help have many options, and the one that the beginners team focuses on is #ubuntu-beginners
<jledbetter> Example questions: (none about the animal kingdom that I've seen so far)
<jledbetter> Hi, I'm on Ubuntu 10.10 and my ethernet adapter is not working (the same one i'm using with windows now). It shows up in 'lshw -C network' as disabled. Any ideas?
<jledbetter> Is it common practice to encrypt the home directory? it that what most users do?
<jledbetter> How do i stop Ubuntu from sleeping?
<jledbetter> So, pretty varied.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is #ubuntu-beginners not known about by most people who go to #ubuntu wanting help?
<jledbetter> Interesting question. As MrChrisDruif said, it's probably due to promotion. We're hoping that by doing this we'll get the word out more :)
<jledbetter> We also have channels that focus on certain areas of Ubuntu like #ubuntu-beginners-dev where we get questions like "could you recommend me some project or something to get more soggy about Ubuntu development?"
<jledbetter> And that channel is where you'll find me answering questions more often then #ubuntu-beginners :)
<jledbetter> We also have team members that focus on user support on the forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/ and http://askubuntu.com/
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Well I didn't know about the beginners dev channel.  Also doesn't the forums have a beginners channel or something, but not run by the same team?
<jledbetter> And that's why we're here to spread the word. My area is development, but there are those that love writing wikis and answering all those hard questions like wifi cards not working on a certain laptop.
<jledbetter> Yes, there are forums as well. And teams that we connect with like BugControl. There are different types of development that one can go into but #ubuntu-beginners-dev is great for generic "I wanna develop for Ubuntu" and we try to guide the person in the right direction/projects.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Probably a bit off topic, but what kind of development do you do?
<jledbetter> A bit but if this will help people see what we can offer: I'm a web developer. I have years of Java experience but have recently started Python/Django work -- and love it. :)
<jledbetter> So, basically, if you have these questions (or more), please ask us.
<jledbetter> If we don't know, we'll try to point you in the right direction.
<jledbetter> Again, the channel is #ubuntu-beginners. If you need help using IRC here is some help: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/IRC
<jledbetter> If you would like to help answer some of these questions (and more), please join the channels and/or join the team!
<jledbetter> From ubuntu-classroom-chat: duanedesign: a bit of ancient Beginners Team history. The team was actually started by a group of Ubuntu Community Forum Staff and users who answered questions in the 'Absolute Beginners' section of the forums
<jledbetter> Now, you may be asking yourself, "How do I become a member of this amazing team?"
<jledbetter> ===How to join===
<jledbetter> Those that are interested in joining the team go through a multi-step process.
<jledbetter> The first is to post one's name on the "seeking a master" (or a guide) list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<jledbetter> This way, someone from the team can help the person through the rest of the steps like setting up a wiki page and signing the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.
<jledbetter> The general purpose of the process is to make sure the person understands the team structure, gets set up on the various Ubuntu-related sites like Launchpad and a wiki page, and finds his or her groups to focus on.
<jledbetter> There is also a "mentorship" program where mentors who are more specialized in an area of Ubuntu can guide the person through that.
<jledbetter> For example, we have mentors in Bugs, Documentation, Accessibility, Testing, and Support.
<jledbetter> More information on that is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<jledbetter> If you would like to find out more about the membership process visit this link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<jledbetter> Plus there are a few beginners team members that are in -chat: duanedesign, MrChrisDruif, and UndiFineD :)
<jledbetter> There are many benefits to membership including getting to know a bunch of great people, helping out new users, and also growing/building up accomplishments.
<jledbetter> As mentioned before, we have various focus groups like user support, documentation, bugs, and development.
<jledbetter> ===Focus groups===
<jledbetter> I'm going to briefly go over each so that you can see what a wide range of ways we help those that are new to Ubuntu (or those that have been using Ubuntu for a long time and are exploring new areas).
<jledbetter> In order to join any of these teams, one must first be an Ubuntu Beginners Team member. However, you are welcome to join the channels and ask (or answer) questions without being a member, of course.
<jledbetter> ___User Support___
<jledbetter> The Support Focus Group of the Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to help new users make the transition to Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> Focus Group Members answer questions on the Ubuntu forums, irc, askubuntu.com or in-person events.
<jledbetter> If you find you have questions about Natty, you can ask us on #ubuntu-beginners.
<jledbetter> For more information on the User Support Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Support
<jledbetter> ___Documentation___
<jledbetter> The Documentation Focus Group is for Beginners Team Members and applicants who want to help update and maintain the documentation for Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> There are three main areas, the two main wikis and the system documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/community - The main community wiki for help documents for Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ - This wiki is now used for organizational work, proposals and all materials not belonging to main wiki.
<jledbetter> System Documentation (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation) - This is the documentation that comes with Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> For more information on the Documentation Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs
<jledbetter> Also, it seems that they share cookie recipes. What a great team!
<jledbetter> ___Bugs___
<jledbetter> The Bugs Focus Group exists to help users become familiar with bug triage (bug squad and bug control teams), quality assurance (QA team), and testing (testing team).
<jledbetter> The previous session today was on testing. Very related!
<jledbetter> Bug triage is an excellent way to start helping out. You get to learn a lot about Ubuntu, its available packages, its infrastructure, and you get a feel for development.
<jledbetter> And what a great time to get involved in it, too!
<jledbetter> We just had a release so this group can help you file bugs and -- if you want to go one step further -- help manage them with triage and start on the path to joining Bug Control (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl).
<jledbetter> For more information on the Bugs Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Bugs
<jledbetter> ___Development___
<jledbetter> The development team is here to help new users learn application design, programming concepts, get acclimated to working in a team, and contributing parts to create a whole.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jledbetter> It has also held programming classes.
<jledbetter> This is a really diverse group of people.
<jledbetter> (And awesome but I may be biased, of course.)
<jledbetter> We have strong Python programmers and not so strong Python programmers. We have people that love packaging and those that prefer to do web development work.
<jledbetter> If you have questions about how to get started developing in or on Ubuntu, please join us on #ubuntu-beginners-dev.
<jledbetter> For more information on the Development Focus Group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Development
<jledbetter> And that was a brief overview of the Ubuntu Beginners Team.
<jledbetter> We are here to assist new users not only use Ubuntu but also to find their way into the community itself.
<jledbetter> I hope that if you have questions about Ubuntu that you will ask us in those channels.
<jledbetter> Also, if you are a seasoned Ubuntu user, we'd love to have you help us help others!
<jledbetter> ===Q&A===
<jledbetter> We have a few minutes left in case anyone has any more questions about the team.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jledbetter> Great! I expect to see more of you in #ubuntu-beginners and the other channels. Would love to see you join the team as well :)
<jledbetter> Let's make Ubuntu an awesome experience for new (and upgrading) users!
<jledbetter> Speaking of awesome.... the next session is "u1 is awesome" by Shane Fagan
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: u1 is awesome - Instructors: fagan
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<fagan> Testing 1,2,3
<fagan> Alright so hey everybody im Shane :)
<fagan> Im going to be talking about Ubuntu one and what exactly it does and how you guys can use it. Also ill be going into some of the stuff you can look forward to
<fagan> So you guys can ask questions in chat and ill get around to them when I can or towards the end
<fagan> Ok so what exactly is Ubuntu one?
<fagan> Ubuntu one is a set of services to make things easier for users mainly cloud based services
<fagan> The cloud is a bit of a scary word but all it means is the internet really and you dont really need to go too much deeper into it
<fagan> So what people try out first id say is the file sync which is free for 2GB of online storage
<fagan> You can sync up your files and folders and publish them so other people can access them
<fagan> It is currently available on Ubuntu, Windows (beta) and an Android version is on the way soon
<fagan> You can get more storage on the website in 20GB packs
<fagan> ok I see some questions
<fagan> so ill take a few now
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Ubuntu One is awesome, oh yeah really, how so?
<fagan> ill get back to this one :D
<ClassBot> jledbetter asked: How secure is my data if I sync it?
<fagan> Ok this is a good question and its really understandable.
<fagan> So the filesync and everything in Ubuntu one is very secure. It is secured by your login info but also you control the access via the web interface or the Ubuntu one control panel in natty
<ClassBot> Fabu asked: will ubuntu one get webdav support? If yes - when can we expect it?
<fagan> No we wont be getting webdav support for a few big reasons that are pretty hard to explain but if you ask on #ubuntuone they can explain it better than me :)
<fagan> ok so ill go back to it
<fagan> So other than the filesync we have contact sync which is something I only started using this month myself
<fagan> You can either use the plugin for evolution on your desktop or sync your contacts from your android or iPhone
<fagan> This is particularly interesting if you are working on the go or have a few different devices
<fagan> So I have 2 computers and an android phone and they all have the same contacts
<fagan> Ok so more questions
<fagan> :)
<ClassBot> jorek asked: Is it possible to sync on Mac, too?
<fagan> Nope but watch this space after the new version of the file sync for Windows is released
<fagan> Its something that is on the todo list for a while but we are tackling the much harder one first
<fagan> and a big shoutout to mandel who is doing the new Windows file sync at the moment
<ClassBot> ombralando asked: How do I sync a folder outside of the "Ubuntu One" folder?  Insructions online only show how to do this in nautilus, not the command-line.
<fagan> Well I dont know how to do it with the commandline myself so could you ask on #ubuntuone im sure someone can help there
<ClassBot> ombralando asked: Does contact sync work in kubuntu applications?
<fagan> Well you can use the Gnome stuff in kubuntu and im pretty sure there is a kubuntu client already
<fagan> the good news is that the windows client is written in Qt for the user interface so there will be some improvements coming from that too probably
<ClassBot> imgarysmith asked: What advantages (if any) has Ubuntu One contact sync got over the integrated Google contact sync on Android
<fagan> great question
<fagan> The benefit is that you can do it over multiple devices
<fagan> and we are adding more as fast as we can so at the moment its just evolution in Ubuntu and there is an improved thunderbird one on the way from mozilla as well as the mobile ones
<fagan> So we support I think the most contacts for any sync service at the moment and we aim to add more
<ClassBot> Fabu asked: will contact Sync also get google contacts support?
<fagan> We have Google contact and facebook contact import at the moment
<fagan> Ok so thats all the questions in the queue for the moment so ill keep going
<fagan> So as part of our mobile service we have music streaming now which is very very cool
<fagan> if you havent seen it yet you just sync you .mp3 (or ogg soon for android) and automagically ubuntu one will add it to your songs on the phone
<fagan> It is pretty cool but ill suggest having a data plan with your phone provider or using the wifi
<fagan> So since there is no more questions ill go on to the next bit and that is some news about whats coming and what we improved upon since the last release of Ubuntu :)
<fagan> So a big thing we added in the last release was the control panel
<fagan> So now you can do a lot more without having to go to the Ubuntu one website
<fagan> You can now sync specific folders from the cloud to your computer now
<fagan> There was a lot of speed improvements and that is something we are always trying to improve upon
<fagan> So thats what we got in the desktop for natty which is a lot
<fagan> For 11.10 (I cant spell it :)
<fagan> It still hasnt been decided but we will be getting some Unity stuff like possibly quicklists and lenses
<fagan> Maybe an update to the music store
<fagan> and maybe a shotwell plugin which some image publishing to the website
<fagan> The recent release of the android client brought some playlist support
<fagan> Oh and just to mention that the Windows, Android and iPhone clients dont follow the same release dates as the Ubuntu release dates
<fagan> So if you want some of the latest news on whats coming be sure to look at the Ubuntu one blog http://voices.canonical.com/ubuntuone/
<fagan> So im a little bit ahead of time does anyone have any more questions?
<fagan> I still have more to cover but ill stop for a sec and take some if you guys have any :)
<fagan> Ok then
<fagan> So ill talk about what I do then :)
<fagan> Im an intern helping out here and there on the Windows client as well as doing bug reports and helping out where ever I can
<fagan> So the new version of the Windows client is coming pretty soon and it should be as good as the one for Ubuntu
<fagan> The current beta that is available is just a rough start so it isnt working to great for the users but the new one should be a lot more snappy
<fagan> There isnt really much to say about it at the moment other than watch the blog and we will announce it for use when its ready which should be pretty soon
<fagan> So still no questions?
<fagan> Well I frequently asked question I get from people is how is Ubuntu one different from dropbox
<fagan> The simplest way to put this is that Dropbox offers file sync and so do we
<fagan> but we offer the mobile stuff like streaming and contact syncing
<fagan> and as well as that we have a great set of services for application developers to make really neat things
<fagan> So eventually we would love to see little applications to sync reading lists or recipies
<fagan> the sky is the limit
<ClassBot> jorek asked: Is it possible to release files to the public?
<fagan> jorek: could you explain what you mean?
<fagan> (in chat)
<fagan> You can publish your files on Ubuntu one by right clicking the file in a synced folder
<fagan> then you can get the link by clicking the copy web link to clipboard link
<ClassBot> jorek asked: For example if you have a file that you want to show your friends. Is it possible to simply upload it and let friends download it?
<fagan> yeah thats like I thought
<fagan> on more recent releases of Ubuntu you can publish files by right clicking in a synced folder
<fagan> and selecting publish and then copying the web link
<fagan> I think that answers it
<ClassBot> ombralando asked: Any plans for sharing photo albums online through ubuntu one?  You mentioned shotwell syncing, would this allow the creation of sharable albums?
<fagan> Maybe it hasnt been decided how this is going to be done yet
<fagan> but it is a topic for discussion
<fagan> I would love to see a nice gallery style website flikr style
 * fagan cant spell today :)
<fagan> Ok so any more questions we still have time left
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<fagan> The main thing id like to say is anything is possible in the future we are getting a lot of improvements along the way
<fagan> and we are trying to make our service the best it can be for the users
<fagan> So that means obviously more platforms like Mac OS and improving what we have done over the past few releases of Ubuntu
<fagan> So thats about it unless there is more questions
<fagan> Oh and just a shameless plug here is the site with all the info about the service plans we have https://one.ubuntu.com/plans/
<fagan> The mobile one is the one I like most at the moment :)
<fagan> Ok thats it thanks for reading
<fagan> oh and the comments were great too
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<fagan> Oh and if you have any problems or questions just ask in #ubuntuone there are people in there to help weekdays
<ClassBot> jorek asked: Is it possible to pay with â¬, too?
<fagan> yes it is but the currency isnt localised yet
<fagan> So you can pay with â¬ you just might have to google the price for the moment. We do know that isnt too helpful but it is a known issue and will be fixed when we can do it but its slightly complciated
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-04
<bhaskar> hi everyone
<Grillmeister> check
<fagan> me
<fagan> damn sorry :)
<teelepel> Mark in 30?
<soubuntu> Yes
<teelepel> awesome
<teelepel> didnt know about ubuntu classroom till the tweet came from castrojo
<juancarlospaco> test
<fagan> you guys will be muted when the session starts go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat to talk
<fagan> (and ask questions since thats the great thing about open week)
<teelepel> thx
<fcuk112> hi
<andybleaden> hi from the uk
<fcuk112> i'm from uk too
<fagan> fcuk112, andybleaden hey this channel gets muted when the session starts so if you move over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can talk there and ask questions
<andybleaden> will do
<Jarige> I heard Mark will be answering questions here, will that remain here or in the other room?
<andybleaden> I was just testing this was working as I am at work behind huge firewall
<andybleaden> Jarige Here
<Jarige> k
<Jarige> ty
<Jarige> never actually used IRC much, using it with Empathy right now
<Jarige> still figuring out stuff
<Milos_SD> answers will be here, but we ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, right?
<fagan> Milos_SD: yep
<jcastro> 12 minute warning!
<fagan> So everyone over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat for cookies
<alket> hey :D
<teelepel> cortexuvula hoe lank is jy al op Ubuntu?
<fagan> #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat and questions
<BluesKaj> Hiyas
<jcastro> Just a few more minutes until we begin
<riktking> :D
 * popey cuddles jcastro 
<jcastro> Ok remember folks
<jcastro> to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> and preface them with QUESTION: so the bot can pick it up
<UbuntuBhoy> can I pop one out now
<UbuntuBhoy> question that is
<jcastro> not really, he's not even here yet
<teelepel> lol
<jcastro> We'll just wait a few moments for the late stragglers
<ogra_> like the main person yopu mean ? :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl
<jcastro> Heh
<jcastro> He'll be around
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<sabdfl> hello all!
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> before we start let me give everyone some tips
<jcastro> a) Try to ask something answerable, it's easier than asking questions that are hypothetical
<jcastro> b) I'll skip questions that are easily googleable so that people with good questions don't get lost
<jcastro> Ok sabdfl, introduce yourself and I'll start when you're ready!
<sabdfl> i wholeheartedly agree with (a) :-)
<sabdfl> i'm Mark Shuttleworth, and happy to answer any and all questions
<sabdfl> especially answerable ones :-)
<sabdfl> fire away!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why did you decide to make Ubuntu less customisable (in terms of how it looks, not the lenses, those are great)?
<sabdfl> I think you mean Unity, rather than Ubuntu
<sabdfl> Ubuntu itself is a superset, has a great deal of customizeability
<sabdfl> and many faces - Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Lubuntu etc
<sabdfl> with many options across all of them
<sabdfl> in Unity, we have a very tight set of options
<sabdfl> part of that is because it's a 1.0, and we wanted to focus on the things people will most enjoy, and most need
<sabdfl> part of that is because we know every option has a high cost, and not every option is equally used
<sabdfl> we also know that the best people to discuss options with are often in a good position to implement them
<sabdfl> it's cheap for someone to show up and demand an option, but often they don't stick around for the prototyping, evaluation, discussion, implementation, maintenance
<sabdfl> and we have to stick around :-)
<sabdfl> as a general meme in design, options are much more expensive than people realise
<sabdfl> each option divides the userbase into people who perhaps cannot talk to each other on the phone to help each other through an experience
<sabdfl> because they see and do different things
<sabdfl> as a developer, you have a LOT of options, some of which involve gconf or dconf or ccsm or patching the code
<sabdfl> as an end-user, you are dependent on developers decisions
<sabdfl> so, we prioritise the needs of the people for whom we can make the biggest difference
<sabdfl> i respect there are other approaches
<sabdfl> but i think it's also reasonable to expect respect for the position we take
<sabdfl> we certainly have a good and growing community that appreciates those positions
<sabdfl> and we'll work with them to make unity even better
<sabdfl> not always by adding options, but by testing and deciding what works best
<sabdfl> it's also a fallacy that "clever developers need options"
<sabdfl> they need robust, usable software just like everyone else
<sabdfl> so Unity is as much for developers as end-users
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are you statisfied with Unity in the recent Ubuntu version ?
<sabdfl> yes, though i recognise there are issues, and i would not be satisfied unless we fixed many of them in 11.10
<sabdfl> in the end, when we reviewed bug lists, stability and experience, Unity was the best option for the average user upgrading or installing
<sabdfl> there are LOTS of people for whom it isn't the best
<sabdfl> but we had to choose a default position
<sabdfl> i think we walked that line admirably, i appreciated the open discussion that was had, and it made me more confident in the final position
<sabdfl> that decision is best taken by the desktop team, and they were arguing in favour of unity, and they had my support for that
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: will lubuntu become official?
<sabdfl> i would like it to, yes
<sabdfl> i think the lubuntu team have done excellent work to make sure that it's possible - integrating their processes and output into the main archive
<sabdfl> there's a thread on the TB list and I'm behind on mail, we're waiting iirc for comment on tools, like iso testing
<sabdfl> from an experience and governance point of view, Lubuntu meets my personal requirements
<sabdfl> it has solid leaders, a good track record of delivery, and works in the spirit of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> we need to know if there are costs or work to be done on the tools front, but I expect they are manageable
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> Question: When will we see the beautiful Ubuntu monospace font?
<sabdfl> this cycle, is my estimate
<sabdfl> ask sladen!
<sabdfl> but we've given a final view on the basic mono cell structure, now it's design and engineering, and much of the design is done
<sabdfl> the engineering is hinting etc
<sabdfl> we don't need that for getting it public, so i think there will be a beta soon
<sabdfl> paul sladen will have more details
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: what is ubuntu doing to match rolling release model updates (like arch)
<sabdfl> i think rolling releases are a very interesting concept
<sabdfl> we should discuss this at UDS next week
<sabdfl> I know a few distros are embracing the concept
<sabdfl> and perhaps it would be appropriate for us too
<sabdfl> but i don't have a view, and would be interested to hear opinions, especially the TB
<sabdfl> perhaps that will become a standard approach in future for all distros? I would not want us to be behind :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Hi Mark. How much of a threat is the recent Google patent infringement suit to Canonical, Ubuntu and Linux in general?
<jcastro> http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/21/google-ordered-to-pay-5-million-in-linux-patent-infringement-su/
<sabdfl> interesting question
<sabdfl> just to clarify - it's not Google that's filing suit, it's another company suing big users of Linux
<sabdfl> the case has the hallmarks of a quick-and-dirty job, it was filed in a jurisdiction that very typically finds for patent plaintiffs without necessarily really understanding the issues
<sabdfl> there appear to be some obvious inconsistencies and problems in the suit, which will get addressed in appeal
<sabdfl> and there are related suits, which may undermine the basis of that suit at all
<sabdfl> patents are a steaming mess that stifle innovation, rather than supporting it
<sabdfl> and in order to change the system, we need mainstream recognition of that
<sabdfl> right not, major tech companies all play both sides of this
<sabdfl> and they have enough patents in their armories to get by that way
<sabdfl> but it's getting crazy even for them
<sabdfl> this is one reason why I prefer GPLv3 to v2, it has a nice "calming the waters" effect on patents
<sabdfl> which I think few people have really understood
<sabdfl> when this really gets crazy, the majors will be pushing FOR v3, not against it :-)
<sabdfl> anyhow, I'm not worried about this particular judgment
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Is the windicators idea completely forgotten? What happened with that?
<sabdfl> patches welcome. i think it is needed to fill out the vision, but it's also not critical for *right now* so it's always just fallen off the list for the core team
<sabdfl> now we have a growing team of contributors to Unity, perhaps this will get taken on
<sabdfl> it should be really straightforward!
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> Question: Hi Mark The pace of change in Ubuntu seems to be getting faster and faster in adopting new ideas and themes. Do you have a future target date to ease up. Or onward ever onward?
<sabdfl> well, part of the reason to embrace hard change now was to allow the 12.04 LTS cycle to be more polish and refinement than big-change
<sabdfl> beyond that, onward ever upward
<sabdfl> we've always tried to make small improvements where we can
<sabdfl> not always successfully or brilliantly
<sabdfl> but you learn a lot about software if you get all the bug reports, and we certainly are in that position
<sabdfl> so it's in my view frustrating for people to argue that Ubuntu is in no position to contribute to the user experience, and that work should "all be done upstream"
<sabdfl> upstream often doesn't want to slog through the bug reports :-)
<sabdfl> what's changing, is that we're growing our capacity in Ubuntu (and in Canonical) to build credible views on the sorts of changes we think may help, and to implement them
<sabdfl> and as a result, the number and scope of those changes is definitely increasing
<sabdfl> i don't think that's a change in policy, just a change in capacity
<sabdfl> but i recognise it's caught people off guard, as that's crossed a threshold of publicity
<sabdfl> not everything we do will turn out to be perfect
<sabdfl> but as I said, we're in the position that we see, daily, how people actually use and enjoy (or not) the software
<sabdfl> so we're in a credible position to participate
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: How does Ubuntu plan to take advantage of the new offerings of GNOME3, in terms of new approaches or new User Experience. Unity was huge, and that was before GNOME3. What potential improvements are waiting on GNOME3?
<sabdfl> i'm looking forward ot having all of GNOME3 in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> and I think we'll achieve that in Oneiric
<sabdfl> it's certainly a hot topic on the agenda for UDS next week
<sabdfl> I also think there continue to be lots of areas of collaboration between work done in GNOME, and Unity, and elsewhere
<sabdfl> our default position is to try and make that happen
<sabdfl> but also to be willing to go in the direction we think will give end users the best experience, based on evidence
<sabdfl> you will certainly be able to have a close-to-vanilla GNOME3 experience in 11.10, and the deltas will be for good reason
<sabdfl> contrary to popular belief, even distros that claim to be vanilla, often carry a lot of patches
<sabdfl> so i feel that gnome-in-ubuntu will be faithfully conveyed
<sabdfl> and there's a great part of the Ubuntu community that cares about that and is invested in making it happen
<sabdfl> that's why we have a GNOME3 PPA today
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION : What is the criteria for choosing the default applications in ubuntu?
<sabdfl> i think i blogged about this when talking about bringing Qt in as a toolkit
<sabdfl> maybe someone can dig up that URL?
<sabdfl> in there are the criteria I think matter: user experience, and consistency are both on the list
<sabdfl> relationship to Ubuntu and the rest of the apps in Ubuntu-by-default matter too
<jcastro>   http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/568
<sabdfl> because we can always do the best work where we have the best relationships
<sabdfl> collaboration is so much easier
<sabdfl> at the end of the day, we want anyone who chooses Ubuntu to feel they got the best experience as a result
<sabdfl> this is a very, very tough process every UDS
<sabdfl> I don't always agree with the result
<sabdfl> but  I respect the process the desktop team (and Kubuntu team and server team) run to make those decisions
<sabdfl> and i feel good that pretty much every other option is just an apt-get away
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: how difficult will it be to get overlay scrollbars in 100% of the applications?  right now, the implementation seems to be pretty spotty.  any guestimation on what release will see overlay scrollbars in all applications?
<sabdfl> this depends on two things: broadening the overlay-scrollbar API, and hooking it into more toolkits
<sabdfl> we're seeing progress on both fronts
<sabdfl> part of the rationale for pressing GO in 11.04 was to make the gaps obvious to the audience of developers who can help close them
<sabdfl> Cimi has already had quite a few emails from developers asking how they can make the scrollbars work in their apps
<sabdfl> so i think it will see active development
<sabdfl> i was surprised that we got Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice working with the global menu in 11.04
<sabdfl> it all came together because folk stepped up
<sabdfl> same is true of scrollbars
<sabdfl> so, help wanted and welcome
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Do you believe in abstract nicks Mark?
<sabdfl> it's not something i question on a daily basis :-)
<sabdfl> within Canonical, I'm in the "you should pick a nick you like, not FirstnameLastname" camp
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: What are your feelings about the growing number of indicators in the top panel?
<sabdfl> i spent a lot of time studying screenshots of people's desktops
<sabdfl> i asked folk to send them to me
<sabdfl> and some media picked up on that
<sabdfl> so i got thousands!
<sabdfl> they were very interesting
<sabdfl> people put a LOT of stuff in their panel
<sabdfl> and partly, the fact that people can do that is something they love
<sabdfl> so we have to find a balance
<sabdfl> we want the panel to be crisp and clean and useful
<sabdfl> which implies fewer icons, and less use of colour, and more MEANINGFUL use of colour
<sabdfl> you should be able to glance at the panel and quickly see if there's something which needs your attention
<sabdfl> once you can do that, you resent having to stare at it to understand it
<sabdfl> so we have category indicators, and will make more of the system indicators into category indicators, to encourage individual tools and apps to fit inside them
<sabdfl> thus reducing the number of icons and improving people's ability to understand roughly what's going on in their system
<sabdfl> but
<sabdfl> if an app or tool really doesn't fit in a category, it's fine for it to be alone on the panel
<sabdfl> as an appindicator
<sabdfl> i don't think that's cool, if it's just "to have my icon on the panel"
<sabdfl> because users most often have no idea what "all those icons" are for, and adding to the problem is not cool!
<sabdfl> so if there's a category that works, it should be used
<sabdfl> if there really isn't, use an appindicator
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any plans for more mainstream Ubuntu preinstalls from big name vendors? Currently, I believe only HP and Dell offer a small selection of Ubuntu laptops.
<sabdfl> i would not be here today if I didn't think we could get to a world where all the vendors sell free software based machines with Ubuntu on 'em
<sabdfl> so yes, there are plans, and credible expectations
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> Question: Will 11.10 cross the limit of 1 CD release?
<sabdfl> it's a very good discipline, so no
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Hi Mr. Mark, When can we see WAYLAND in UBUNTU.
<sabdfl> i think you mean "when will it be the default display system"
<sabdfl> and the answer is "green"
<sabdfl> i think wayland is the most likely basis for future displays across most linux devices
<sabdfl> i think it will take the longest of all to get that on the desktop
<sabdfl> or something like that
<sabdfl> before that, it will happen in particular form factors and devices
<sabdfl> maybe a specialised netbook here or there
<sabdfl> or ARM smartbook
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will there be mainstream advertising, such as commercials, billboards, etc.  in Ubuntu's future?
<sabdfl> possibly, though it's not likely to be the most effective way to reach consumers for us, for a long time
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: When oh when can I get my ARM laptop running Ubuntu with an everlasting battery playing HD content?
<sabdfl> the everlasting bit is tricky
<sabdfl> but "all day long", within 12 months imo
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: what was being in space like?
<jcastro> (haven't had a space question in a few years!)
<sabdfl> magical
<sabdfl> really magical
<sabdfl> and one of my crew mates is waiting in Florida for them to fix the shuttle so he can fly again, lucky guy
<sabdfl> i was in Russia for the 50th anniversary of Gagarin's flight
<sabdfl> it was amazing - and i think with hindsight, the friendships i made in the experience were the best bit
<sabdfl> though i would love to fly again, perhaps further
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> A question from Jason De Rose, one of the upstreams to the Novacut editor:
<jcastro> QUESTION: any thoughts on how best to push for high quality *open* GPU/APU drivers? are hardware manufactures warming up? for certain workloads (like video editing), the GPU has become extremely important... any advice how, say, a startup developing a video editor could start a productive dialog with hardware mfrs?
<sabdfl> the main thing, i believe, is to have the vendors REALLY care about Linux
<sabdfl> once that's true, they become more and more susceptible to doing things the linux-friendly way, which is always as open source
<sabdfl> if it's a small part of their concerns, they try to find the easiest / cheapest way to check the box
<sabdfl> even that might not be easy or cheap
<sabdfl> so i'm grateful that, broadly speaking, ATI, nVidia and Intel all take Linux seriously
<sabdfl> we should not take that for granted
<sabdfl> i'm embarrassed when I see a rant attacking ATI or nVidia for not just doing what "the community wants"
<sabdfl> that's not how life goes, in my experience
<sabdfl> we need to be more relevant, in more markets
<sabdfl> that's why we focus on user experience, so we can have end-users demanding Ubuntu, so in turn we can move up the charts in the hardware vendors minds
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro>  QUESTION : for all this development of ubuntu you need lots of people, in what area would yo usay you have plenty and where do you really need more involvement?
<sabdfl> wow
<sabdfl> i think we need more involvement in core apps
<sabdfl> to raise the quality of experience
<sabdfl> we've been focusing on Unity, because that's the starting point
<sabdfl> but libreoffice, firefox, evolution, thunderbird, and many more all need love!
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: is Ubuntu profitable yet?  If not, any ideas on when it will be?
<sabdfl> no, and while we have projections which are grounds for confidence, there are also reasons to continue to push the investment faster than it would grow organically
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: do u prefer iphone or android?
<sabdfl> iphone!
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> Saamm: Ubuntu Mono font.  It's currently in design steps needed for moving to beta for the beta team, or more generally (unhinted).  If that's all good it can be hinted for final release on  http://font.ubuntu.com/  Webfonts and Ubuntu 11.10 this cycle.
<jcastro> For those wondering (from Paul Sladen)
<sabdfl> awesome, thanks jcastro, sladen
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will we ever get some concrete numbers of numbers of deployed Ubuntu desktops? (aside from the hard to track ones)
<sabdfl> i don't think we could get this even if we added some sort of registration
<sabdfl> and if we added registration, lots of users would have reservations
<sabdfl> so it's unknowable, and trying too hard to know would hurt!
<sabdfl> i think it's many, many millions
<sabdfl> we can see for example, in wikimedia's browser stats
<sabdfl> it's still only a tiny start on the world of computing
<sabdfl> but i think we will make a much bigger dent in time
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will Indicator API improved this cycle like missing tool tips and many other things?
<sabdfl> the absence of tooltips is a design decision, not an API issue
<sabdfl> iirc, the content for the tooltips is actually passed in the API
<sabdfl> but we don't display it
<sabdfl> the reasons are that more often than not, tooltips end up being more harmful than helpful
<sabdfl> if you read code which has lots of tooltips, you'll see
<sabdfl> most of them are unneeded
<sabdfl> often that are flat out wrong
<sabdfl> and it's almost impossible to make them look stylish
<sabdfl> so, it's better to say to developers "put more time into the design of your *visible* UI, rather than trying to paper over it with *invisible* tooltips
<sabdfl> i understand that's a surprising position to some
<sabdfl> but it's backed up by real research and experience
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: What work is being done to make inclusion in USC for 3rd party devs as "easy" (read: well documented) as Android / Apple marketplaces?
<sabdfl> this is MPT's area of expertise, with the app review board process and various tools being setup to support it
<sabdfl> i'm not up to speed, but perhaps he can be persuaded to shed some light
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will the Unity 2D launcher get transperant <---- this might be a good time just to explain what you want to see in 2d for 11.10
<sabdfl> i think the need for 2D is to support chips which don't do 3D
<jcastro> (and/or give us any tidbits/juicy news on what you want to do for 11.10, as we're running short on time now)
<sabdfl> and typically, they also do not do compositing
<sabdfl> which is the transparency bit
<sabdfl> so, I don't think so
<sabdfl> but I may be wrong
<sabdfl> i'm really impressed with the unity-2d work
<sabdfl> if I'd known it would come together so well, we could have planned to get it into 11.04
<sabdfl> kudos to the folk who lead it, and the community that's growing up around Unity
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: ConnMan will replace network-manager-applet on 11.10?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> this falls into the "I don't have unilateral say on app selection" question, I think
<sabdfl> I believe ConnMan has some really important capabilities
<sabdfl> and we should give it serious consideration
<sabdfl> we would be the first to deploy it very widely, which means the first to run into lots of issues
<sabdfl> Google are adopting a (fork/branch) of it for Chrome OS
<sabdfl> but it's not ready YET, imo, to be the default
<sabdfl> I'd like it to be parallel installable easily, perhaps we can get there for 11.10
<sabdfl> help wanted!
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Have there been any Unity design decisions that you think will be revisited now that users have had a chance to use it and respond?
<sabdfl> oh yes
<sabdfl> there's lots to learn, that can only be learned in reasonable time by getting code into a wide deployment
<sabdfl> some decisions I regret and we'll evaluate alternatives, some we'll tweak
<sabdfl> it's by no means perfect, and it would be egotistical to suggest otherwise
<sabdfl> so everything is on the cards
<sabdfl> that said, i think the bulk of it has worked out fantastically
<sabdfl> both at an engineering level (compiz, nux) and in the user experience
<sabdfl> i'm proud of the guts required by quite a few people to commit to delivery, and the effort that went into it, and the support we've had from so many
<sabdfl> it's reassuring that others are following the broad design
<sabdfl> and we'll work out the details in round two :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: With the benefit of hindsight, if you could change one thing about Ubuntu since its inception, what would it be?
<jcastro> last one!
<sabdfl> great question
<sabdfl> of course, we can change anything, so this is not a meaningless question
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> i think i would have been clearer about the need for us to have the capacity to implement change
<sabdfl> i think if we'd done that from the start, some things would be easier
<sabdfl> people would have made fewer accusations of "not contributing", because those who only measure that kind of contribution would have been able to see them from the start
<sabdfl> on the other hand, we would have established our willingness and ability to lead as well as follow at the start, which would feel like less of a change now
<sabdfl> and perhaps, folk would have been more willing to be collaborative, if that capacity had started before Ubuntu became such a substantial player
<sabdfl> i fear that, today, many of these conversations are hugely influenced by competitive dynamics
<sabdfl> probably, both ways
<sabdfl> nevertheless, here we are
<jcastro> Awesome, well thanks for stopping by and answering user questions, I'm sure we'll have plenty of things for next time to talk about 11.10.
<sabdfl> we have an *amazing* community, which I think reflects the combination of values, governance and willingness to get the work done efficiently
<sabdfl> people want to participate in a place where their contribution will have the biggest impact on the most people
<sabdfl> and i think Ubuntu is one such place
<sabdfl> thank you!
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for contributing questions to this session, now we move on to doctormo, thanks sabdfl!
<sabdfl> thanks jorge for the stewardship of the classroom :-)_
<popey> 16:01:16 [freenode] -!-  idle     : 0 days 10 hours 31 mins 45 secs [signon: Wed Apr 13 07:18:22 2011]
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Making a Poster to Spread Ubuntu - Instructors: doctormo
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> ok let's give doctormo a few minutes ...
<jcastro> smoke if you got em
<jcastro> ok the instructor is missing, so if we shows up we'll do a partial session, if not we'll just continue at the top of the hour
<jcastro> sorry about the inconvenience!
<doctormo> Hey everyone
<doctormo> Sorry for the delay, if you're still here for the making posters class. Then worry not. I put everything into a video: http://blip.tv/file/5101599
<doctormo> Watch it at your own leisure and feel free to email, irc message me if you have questions.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<doctormo> If you have any questions, ask away now.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Conquering the Command Line for Beginners - Instructors: mhall119
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<mhall119> Hello everybody
<mhall119> welcome to my session on using the command line
<mhall119> now, there's a lot of old stereo-types about Linux, that you have to put all kinds of cryptic stuff into the command line to get things done
<mhall119> but in Ubuntu, you can do pretty much everything in the GUI with the mouse, and you'll never ever *need* the command line
<mhall119> but, power users still use it all the time
<mhall119> why?
<mhall119> Well, because it's fast
<mhall119> it's fun
<mhall119> and, believe it or not, it's easy!
<mhall119> this session isn't going to make you masters of the command line
<mhall119> but it will make you more comfortable with it
<mhall119> and show you some of the cool things you can do with just a handful of commands
<mhall119> so, to get things started, lets all pull up a terminal
<mhall119> if you're using Unity, you can hit Alt-F2 and type "gnome-terminal"
<mhall119> you should also be able to it ctrl-alt-T to get a new terminal window
<mhall119> if you're on KDE, alt-f2 then "kterm" should do it
<mhall119> if you're on anything else, I'll just assume you know how already ;)
<mhall119> everybody able to get a terminal window up?
<mhall119> I'll take your silence to mean that everybody has a terminal open
<mhall119> or that nobody is listening
<mhall119> either way, we're moving on
<mhall119> first off, type "pwd" and hit enter
<mhall119> "pwd" stands for "Present Working Directory", and it tells you where you are in the file system
<mhall119> sorry, type "pwd" in your terminal, not IRC
<mhall119> You can think of the command line as a super file manager, and just like Nautilus (the GUI file manager), you are always "in a directory"
<mhall119> so, pwd tells you which directory you're in
<mhall119> next, type "ls" and hit enter
<mhall119> "ls" stands of "list" and it'll do exactly that, list what's in your current directory
<mhall119> so now you know where you are and what's there
<mhall119> next, let's get moving
<mhall119> "cd" stands for "change directory"
<mhall119> type "cd /tmp/" in your terminal and hit enter
<mhall119> that will change your current directory to /tmp/
<mhall119> you can verify this by running "pwd" again
<mhall119> and you can run "ls" again to see what's in /tmp/
<mhall119> /tmp/ is used by a lot of programs as a place to put "temporary" files
<mhall119> we're going to use it for the files we're going to play with
<mhall119> everybody in /tmp/?
<mhall119> any questions so far?
<mhall119> ok, let's make a file
<mhall119> ok, run "touch test"
<mhall119> "touch" creates a new, empty file, in this case we named it "test"
<mhall119> next we're going to make a directoy
<mhall119> run "mkdir classroom"
<mhall119> "mkdir" as it's name implies, makes a directory, in this case we named it "classroom
<mhall119> now let's put our test file into our new directory
<mhall119> run  "mv test classroom"
<mhall119> "mv" means "move", and does exactly that
<mhall119> now "cd classroom" to move into that new directory
<mhall119> and "ls" to see that "test" is in there
<mhall119> now, let's put some content into our test file
<mhall119> run: echo "Hello world" > test
<mhall119> "echo" just prints out what you pass it, in this case "Hello world"
<mhall119> the > is called a redirect, I'll explain what it's doing in a minute
<mhall119> but, suffice it to say, that full command puts "Hello world" into our test file
<mhall119> you can check that by running "cat test"
<mhall119> "cat" will print the contents of a file out for you to see
<mhall119> now let's make a copy of our test file
<mhall119> run "cp test backup"
<mhall119> "cp" stands for copy
<mhall119> now if you run "ls", you should see both "test" and "backup"
<mhall119> and if you run "cat backup" you should see "Hello world", because that's what was in "test"
<mhall119> okay, now that's pretty much the basics of using the command line for file management
<mhall119> any questions on that before we get into the fun stuff?
<ClassBot> kkitano asked: what does cat stand for?
<mhall119> "cat" stands for "concatenate"
<mhall119> because you can give "cat" multiple files, and it will print their contents one after the other
<mhall119> concatenating them
<mhall119> try it out by running "cat test backup", and you'll see "Hello world" twice
<mhall119> okay, now for the fun stuff
<mhall119> one of the most powerful aspects of the Linux command line is the ability to redirect input and output
<mhall119> we did that earlier with >
<mhall119> > redirects the output from a command and puts it into a file
<mhall119> we used it to put the output from "echo" into our file "test"
<mhall119> you can also use >>, which will append to the end of a file, instead of replacing all it's existing content
<mhall119> < will take input from a file and pass it to a program
<mhall119> finally, the "pipe" symbol: |
<mhall119> this will redirect input and output between 2 programs, instead of between a program and a file
<mhall119> using pipes, you can chain multiple programs together
<mhall119> I'm going to introduce some common command line programs, and show you how to do powerful things by joining them together with pipes
<mhall119> our first one is "ps", which will give you a list of running processes
<mhall119> go ahead and run "ps"
<mhall119> is probably won't show much, because the default settings only show what's running on your current terminal
<mhall119> to get a list of everything running on your system, we need to pass it some additional "flags",
<mhall119> run "ps -ef" and you'll see a whole lot more information
<mhall119> don't worry about what it all is right now
<mhall119> we're only going to worry about the first 2 columns, which are the username and the process id or PID
<mhall119> next is "grep", which is a very powerful text searching tool
<mhall119> try "grep 'world' test"
<mhall119> and it'll search the contents of our test file for the word "world"
<mhall119> now, let's combine them with pipes to do something useful
<mhall119> suppose we want to list all the processes that involve "python"
<mhall119> just run "ps -ef |grep python"
<mhall119> this will get a list of all the processes on your system, and send that list to grep, which will only print out those lines that contain the word "python"
<mhall119> any questions about what we just did?
<mhall119> okay, moving on to our next command: "find"
<mhall119> "find" will give you a list of files in a directory and all it's sub directoryies
<mhall119> fun "find /tmp" and you'll see a lot of information go by
<mhall119> that's every file under the /tmp directory
<mhall119> now let's say we want to see every file under /tmp/ where the word "test" is in the file name, or in the name of one of it's parent directories
<mhall119> we can do this by "piping" the output from find into grep again
<mhall119> run "find /tmp |grep test"
<mhall119> you will probably see more than just out test file, that's okay
<mhall119> another useful command is "file"
<mhall119> "file" just tells you what kind of file something is
<mhall119> run "file test"
<mhall119> and it should tell you that it's an ASCII text file
<mhall119> it's important to note that, unlike Windows, Linux doesn't need file extensions to know what kind of file something is
<mhall119> run "cp test test.png" to make a copy of our text file called "test.png"
<mhall119> if this were Windows, it woud think that test.png is an image
<mhall119> but if you run "file test.png", it still knows that it's content is only text
<mhall119> okay, we don't need to keep this file around, so remove it by running "rm test.png"
<mhall119> "rm" obviously, stands for "remove"
<ClassBot> suprengr90 asked: is it worth mention the location on keyboard of "|" as it doesn't show on the keyboard [exactly] the same?
<mhall119> on standard US-en keyboards, it's shift+backslash
<mhall119> I'm not sure about other keyboard layouts
<mhall119> okay, now for some real fun
<mhall119> "xargs" is a very handy program that will take each line that it takes as input, and pass it to another program
<mhall119> so, let's say we want to know all the python scripts in /usr/bin
<mhall119> since the filenames in /usr/bin don't end with .py, even if they're python files, we can't use find+grep like we did before
<mhall119> but, using "xargs" and "file", we can check the content type of each
<mhall119> so try running: find /usr/bin |xargs file |grep 'python.*script'
<mhall119> let me break that down
<mhall119> 1) "find /usr/bin" this will produce a list of all the files in /usr/bin
<mhall119> we then pass that list to:
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<mhall119> 2) "xargs file", this says for every file in the list, run that file through the "file" command
<mhall119> this gives us a list of all the files + their content type information
<mhall119> which we pass to
<mhall119> 3) "grep 'python.*script'" which will filter the output, displaying only those that contain "python" and "script" with any amount of text between them (the .* part)
<mhall119> now, take a minute to think about the number of steps and repetition it would take to do the same from the GUI with a mouse
<mhall119> alright, a couple final commands before the session is over
<mhall119> the "kill" command takes a process ID, like we say using "ps", and forces the process to end
<mhall119> be careful with this command
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<mhall119> but, suppose you wanted to kill all gwibber processes
<mhall119> gwibber is the default Ubuntu twitter client
<mhall119> we can use "ps -ef |grep gwibber" like we did before to see all the gwibber processes
<mhall119> and then run "kill" on each one
<mhall119> but that can be tedious
<mhall119> instead, let's introduce "awk"
<mhall119> awk is a very powerful scripting too, but we're going to use it for something very basic, printing out the 2nd column only from ps
<mhall119> the 2nd column is the process id
<mhall119> so run: ps -ef |grep gwibber | awk '{print $2}'
<mhall119> now you have the process id's for the gwibber processes
<mhall119> now we can use xargs again to pass each one to kill
<mhall119> (again, don't actually try this)
<mhall119> ps -ef |grep gwibber |awk '{print $2}'|xargs kill
<mhall119> will find all the gwibber process ids and pass them to the "kill" command
<mhall119> now, it's hard to remember all the ways to use commands, not even power users remember them all
<mhall119> fortunately, there's easy ways to find out
<mhall119> almost every command will take the "--help" flag and give you a short description of how to use it
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to AppArmor - Instructors: jjohansen
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<mhall119> also, "man" will give you the full documentation
<jjohansen> well lets get started
<jjohansen> Hello and welcome to the AppArmor session.
<jjohansen> My name is John Johansen and I am a Kernel Engineer for Canonical
<jjohansen> For those not familiar with AppArmor it is a mandatory access control (MAC) style security system.  Basically it limits an application to a preset list of resources,
<jjohansen> whether it is run as root or not, and it is always gets applied ie. the user doesn't get to change it.
<jjohansen> Today I plan to walk through the basics of AppArmor, feel free to ask questions at anytime, though if they don't fit into the current discussion I may wait until later to answer them.
<jjohansen> We are going to need a terminal open as AppArmor currently does not have
<jjohansen> any GUI based tools.
<jjohansen> In unity you can do this by pressing the meta (windows) key and typing terminal
<jjohansen> or in the classic gnome environment  Applications >> Accessories >> Terminal
<jjohansen> First up we will look do some basic introspection of AppArmor
<jjohansen> To see if apparmor is enabled from the terminal type
<jjohansen>  aa-status
<jjohansen> if enabled it will return
<jjohansen> apparmor module is loaded.
<jjohansen> You do not have enough privilege to read the profile set.
<jjohansen> that is enough to tell apparmor is loaded and active but not see what it is doing
<jjohansen> to get a full picture we need to use sudo
<jjohansen> sudo aa-status
<jjohansen> will return a much larger list of items
<jjohansen> eg.
<jjohansen> apparmor module is loaded.
<jjohansen> 47 profiles are loaded.
<jjohansen> 12 profiles are in enforce mode.
<jjohansen>    /sbin/dhclient
<jjohansen>    /usr/bin/evince
<jjohansen>    /usr/bin/evince-previewer
<jjohansen>    /usr/bin/evince-thumbnailer
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/NetworkManager/nm-dhcp-client.action
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_java
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/chromium-browser/chromium-browser//browser_openjdk
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/connman/scripts/dhclient-script
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/cups/backend/cups-pdf
<jjohansen>    /usr/sbin/cupsd
<jjohansen>    /usr/sbin/tcpdump
<jjohansen>    /usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession
<jjohansen> 35 profiles are in complain mode.
<jjohansen> that is just part of my listing
<jjohansen> so on my example system, there are 47 profiles loaded into the kernel
<jjohansen> of those 47 profiles only 12 of them are being enforced
<jjohansen> this means that applications confined by those programs, can only do what is specified by the profile
<jjohansen> if they try to do anything not specified by the profile the access will denied the application with EPERM or EACCES
<jjohansen> the rest of the loaded profiles are in complain mode
<jjohansen> this is a special "learning" mode where profiles confined by a profile don't have access listed in a profile fail
<jjohansen> instead, the access is logged and allowed, so the application runs normally but the behavior and accesses are logged so they can be learned and a profile developed
<jjohansen> the information aa-status spits out can also be obtained using ps -Z, but it won't be organized near as nice
<jjohansen> but can be useful to know if you need to do something with shell scripting
<jjohansen> eg.
<jjohansen> pidof cupsd | xargs ps -Z
<jjohansen> LABEL                             PID TTY      STAT   TIME COMMAND
<jjohansen> /usr/sbin/cupsd                   939 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/cupsd -F
<jjohansen> shows that cupsd is confined by the /usr/sbin/cupsd profile
<jjohansen> the LABEL column provided by the -Z option to ps is the profile listing
<jjohansen> applications that are not confined by a profile are listed as unconfined
<jjohansen> unconfined                       4497 pts/1    00:00:00 bash
<jjohansen> there is another useful command for introspecting network facing programs
<jjohansen> aa-unconfined
<jjohansen> it will show programs that are unconfined and have open network sockets
<jjohansen> eg.
<jjohansen> sudo aa-unconfined
<jjohansen> 825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)'
<jjohansen> 825 /usr/sbin/avahi-daemon confined by '/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon (complain)'
<jjohansen> 939 /usr/sbin/cupsd confined by '/usr/sbin/cupsd (enforce)'
<jjohansen> 1671 /sbin/dhclient confined by '/sbin/dhclient (enforce)'
<jjohansen> 1970 /usr/bin/mumble not confined
<jjohansen> this can be real nice to help find applications that you would like to limit, as internet facing applications are generally the ones you need to worry about being hacked
<jjohansen> aa-unconfined does have a limitation in that it only picks up applications with current connections, if an application is opening and closing connections (eg firefox), it may not list it
<jjohansen> QUESTION: Why does sudo aa-unconfined show me multiple programs with the same pid?
<jjohansen> well good question, it is likely because there are multiple threads, which share the pid
<jjohansen> aa-unconfined, and aa-status both have man pages that are worth looking at
<jjohansen> man aa-unconfined
<jjohansen> man aa-status
<jjohansen> both commands get their information mostly from 2 places (for those who like nitty gritty details)
<jjohansen> /proc/<pid>/attr/current
<jjohansen> /sys/kernel/security/apparmor/profiles
<jjohansen> they are worth poking at if you like figuring things out, btw <pid> should be replaced with a processes pid
<jjohansen> eg.  /proc/825/attr/current
<jjohansen> so if you are using apparmor, I find one of the most useful things is the notifier
<jjohansen> its in the apparmor-notifier package if you don't have it installed
<jjohansen> from the command line you can install it using
<jjohansen>  sudo apt-get install apparmor-notifier
<jjohansen> or you can search for it in the software center
<jjohansen> this will install the aa-notify program and in natty turn it on by default
<jjohansen> the notifier will pop up notifications when apparmor denies access to something
<jjohansen> this can be real nice to have
<jjohansen> either because it reminds you that apparmor is confining the application and that is possibly why you are getting unexpected behavior
<jjohansen> or well because something happend that wasn't expected and apparmor stopped it
<jjohansen> man aa-notify
<jjohansen> for more details
<jjohansen> actually one more detail
<jjohansen> it doesn't start on its own, the enabled bit just allows it to get the information from the log files
<jjohansen> I have it added to my startup applications
<jjohansen> Name: AppArmor Notify
<jjohansen> Command: /usr/sbin/apparmor-notify -p
<jjohansen> Comment: startup apparmor notifications
<jjohansen> so we have covered basic introspection, I want to switch gears for a minute and mention how to disable apparmor
<jjohansen> generally I wouldn't but if it is causing problems, there are multiple ways to get it out of your way
<jjohansen> the best is just disabling a profile, if you just have apparmor interfering with a single application that you need
<jjohansen> you can run
<jjohansen>   sudo aa-disable <profile name>
<jjohansen> or if you like doing things manually
<jjohansen>   sudo ln -s /etc/apparmor.d/<profile file> /etc/apparmor.d/disable/<profile file name>
<jjohansen> where <profile file> is the file name for the profile causing problems
<jjohansen> however if you don't use aa-disable you will need to manually reload the profile set
<jjohansen>   /etc/init.d/apparmor reload
<jjohansen> will do that for you
<jjohansen> you can verify that the profile is gone with aa-status
<jjohansen> disabling a single profile is the recommended way of working around a problem as it still leaves other applications protected by apparmor
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jjohansen> if you want to stop apparmor for all applications for the current session
<jjohansen>   /etc/init.d/apparmor teardown
<jjohansen> will remove all current profiles, making every process unconfined
<jjohansen> on reboot apparmor will be back to normal
<jjohansen> if you want to disable apparmor on boot, you can enter
<jjohansen>   apparmor=0
<jjohansen> on the grub command line,
<jjohansen> hopefully nobody will need those but it always seems to come up in bug reports
<jjohansen> Alright switching back, so as you might have inferred apparmor stores its policy in
<jjohansen>   /etc/apparmor.d/
<jjohansen> these are simple text files, that get compiled by the apparmor_parser and loaded into the kernel for enforcement
<jjohansen> the file names in the directory are actually arbitrary
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jjohansen> they don't have to be named after the applications that are being confined
<jjohansen> it is just done by convention
<jjohansen> also a file can contain multiple profiles, that is not usually done however unless they are related
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<coun> how does this work? I thought Shuttleworth was supposed to be answering questions?
<UbuntuBhoy> been and gone
<nigelb> coun: He did. Earlier today.
<coun> oh. screwed up time :0
<UbuntuBhoy> lol
<coun> hehe. logs up yet?
<ppq> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<coun> thx
<sabri_icone_> hello
<sabri_icone_> how to open a new webchat in the IRC ?
<sabri_icone_> for exemple, i want to open #ubuntu ?
<TLE> sabri_icone_: /j #ubuntu
<sabri_icone_> waw , amazing thanks ;)
<sabri_icone_> ther's a tutoriel for how to use webchat IRC ?
<TLE> Try and google it, there is probably like a million of them
<sabri_icone_> thanks , i will do that
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-05
<hound> sup ubuntuers
<hound> does x-chat count as a "Chat Account" for Status Menu purposes in the panel? It always brings up Empathy
<sebsebseb> Hi
<nhandler> 67
<jcastro> ok welcome everyone
<jcastro> today we have a new presenter
<jcastro> Marco Ceppi
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Using Ask Ubuntu - Instructors: marcoceppi
<jcastro> who is going to talk about the newish Ubuntu Stack Exchange, askubuntu.com
<jcastro> marcoceppi: take it away!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/05/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<marcoceppi> Hello Everyone, Salutations!
<marcoceppi> I'm Marco Ceppi, a moderator for Ask Ubuntu http://askubuntu.com/ and I'm here to talk briefly about what Ask Ubuntu is, some potential use cases, and mainly field your questions.
<marcoceppi> Ask Ubuntu http://askubuntu.com/about is a Question and Answer site maintained (infrastructure and code base wise by StackExchange, LLC the same people behind StackOverflow, ServerFault, Super User and several other Q&A sites). Designed to field questions which range from basic user problems all the way to questions around development on/for Ubuntu.
<marcoceppi> What sets Ask Ubuntu (AU) apart from other Q&A sites is that AU is community operated â instilling powers to those who contribute more, using a metric of User Reputation. Reputation, in short, is provided to users who ask good questions, provide great answers, or help to maintain quality by flagging in appropriate posts and editing less than stellar content. So the more you participate the more
<marcoceppi> privileges the site will grant you. From simple things like posting comments upwards of voting to close questions, editing users contents, and the list continues.
<marcoceppi> AU works like a Wiki, a Forum, a Blog, and Reddit combined. So voting helps sort poor quality from high quality, users can edit other users content to help improve quality and correct mistakes, and comments allow users to hold small discussions without crowding the entire thread with relatively useless troubleshooting.
<marcoceppi> In addition to the main AU site AU has a âmetaâ site where users can ask and raise issues about the main site itself. Again contributing to the self-regulatory lifestyle of the site.
<marcoceppi> Finally AU has it's own web based chat system where community members can take discussions and further troubleshooting into a realtime chat allowing just the final answer to be reposted on the main site - cutting down the noise ratio (and allowing for a general hangout place).
<marcoceppi> To really get an idea about the community and power behind the AU platform I would recommend you checkout http://askubuntu.com/faq, take a look at our "How does Ask Ubuntu work?" Guide http://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/257/how-does-ask-ubuntu-work, and signup http://askubuntu.com/users/login to try it out yourself !
<marcoceppi> We're pretty big on quality, trying to ensure questions don't become out of date by constantly editing and improving the content
<marcoceppi> We're also pretty harsh on off-topic questions, so questions that are subjective or argumentative typically get closed pretty quickly because they're just that - opinionated driven questions which likely can't be objectively answered.
<marcoceppi> So things like "Why does Unity stink?" aren't questions we're interested in fielding, whereas something like How do I go back to the old desktop in 11.04? is an objective and answerable question.
<marcoceppi> Other questions that don't jive well are questions not relating to Ubuntu, questions which should be bug reports, or posting a "Guide" as a question.
<marcoceppi> If you have a great answer to a question, for instance you spent the last 8 hours scouring the internet for a solution and finally pieced together a solution from old posts and research - then asking your original question - then answering it using the Answer mechanism is a valid way to publish your content without having it just a "Guide to do X"
<marcoceppi> Here are a few of the more popular and great questions from the AU site
<marcoceppi> http://askubuntu.com/questions/30334/list-of-application-indicators
<marcoceppi> http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/unity-keyboard-mouse-shortcuts
<marcoceppi> http://askubuntu.com/questions/4983/what-are-ppas-and-how-do-i-use-them
<marcoceppi> http://askubuntu.com/questions/37/
<marcoceppi> For people looking to contribute answers to questions on the site, the markdown for the site is easy to use and popular items like posting screenshots are even easier since AU integrates with imgur - allowing persistent hosting of images in posts - ensuring they will always be there without worrying about bandwidth limits or if an image host disappears.
<marcoceppi> As always the interface, and site, is all geared towards high quality content - in an attempt to provide the best solutions for questions regarding Ubuntu
<jcastro> (we can take questions before he moves on)
<jcastro> QUESTION:Why use AU instead of lets say, ubuntu forums.
<jcastro> our first question!
<marcoceppi> Since everything has an up and downvote button making content not just right - but great - is what helps users to gain reputation on the site. Providing thorough instructions in your solution, linking to resources which could assist the user past the answer,  if it's a software solution using apt.ubuntu.com for linking, adding images where appropriate, etc help to create a holistic solution for us
<marcoceppi> ers who may also have that problem
<marcoceppi> AU and the Ubuntu Forums are both great
<marcoceppi> I'm only going to touch on slight differences between AU and the Ubuntu Forums (UF) in regards to Question and Answers because outside of that AU really doesn't offer quite as much as the UF do
<marcoceppi> In AU answers aren't linear, they're not sorted by time - but instead by votes of the content. So a great answer may be posted 2 days (and 8 literal posts later) but will likely filter to the first in the list if it's upvoted as such.
<jcastro> QUESTION: Would it be useful to have indicators to show if people are able to 'float around' 'available to help' etc or is that already there
<marcoceppi> However, we strongly discourage opinionated questions, discussion pieces, and most recommendations - as the site really doesn't work well for questions of that time. In that respect I think that the forums serve an excellent platform as it's a threaded linear view. It allows for discussions and replies and continued conversations around that subject and potentially others related to it
<marcoceppi> There's no way to tell who is online or not - but users are regularly on the site, simply asking the question will ensure someone will get to it since there are no "forum sections"
<marcoceppi> Instead we organize posts using a tagging system - allowing users to filter in or out topics of their interest
<marcoceppi> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Sometimes I ask a question but the site is so busy it scrolls off, now what do I do? Did I lose my chance to get my question answered?
<marcoceppi> Not at all - the question still exists there and if you ask your question on a particularly busy day and it slides off the home page it still exists in the system. If you don't receive and answer in a timely fashion that may mean you need to add details to your question (doing so will 'bump' it back to the homepage)
<marcoceppi> So it may not mean that there isn't an answer, but instead the question could be unclear - needs more details - or requires a clean up in general
<marcoceppi> "Old" unanswered questions also get added to a special section of the site under the "Unanswered" tab where users regularly can see questions untouched by any answer (or low quality answers) where they might edit the question to make it more clear or attempt to answer the question if they can manage to do so
<marcoceppi> No content on the site should really be considered "static" there is usually always room for improvement. Improving questions and answers help ensure that the content stays relevant
<marcoceppi> and continues being a solution for the foreseeable future
<marcoceppi> In addition to user rep which you get by having good content the site also rewards users with badges - one of which is called "Necromancy" or answering an o"
<marcoceppi> ... an "old question" and having that answer upvoted or accepted
<marcoceppi> There is a whole host of Badges, and Badges range from easier-to-get Bronze badges, to bit-harder-to-get Silver, all the way to the Really-hard-to-achieve Gold
<marcoceppi> Next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Lets say, I have a problem,which is very rare,but a critical one, and other questions tend to be simpler to understand,hence get more upvotes, in the end my question is ignored.Doesnt it seem counter-intuitive.I mean stuff which can be googled get more upvotes than actual good questions.
<marcoceppi> I wouldn't say so - upvoting questions should be that the question is either of a good quality, or if you have a similar issue. Critical issues can sometimes be harder to diagnose in the system due to how the commenting system works - but we've had users regularly ask a critical or complex issue on the site and jump into the site chat to further troubleshoot and narrow the scope of the question. E
<marcoceppi> ither leading to a better formatted question
<marcoceppi> or, in best case examples, an answer
<marcoceppi> Having a "complex" or critical question shouldn't be viewed as never getting an answer, but rather a little more of a challenge to the question asker to provide as much details as possible to ensure a quick resolution
<marcoceppi> Next?
<jcastro> none yet
<jcastro> talk about how he can get attention to that complex question!
<marcoceppi> Awesome, in that case I'll keep talkin!
<marcoceppi> The site also offers other incentives for question askers and on lookers.
<marcoceppi> One example is to socially broadcast the message via Facebook or Twitter
<marcoceppi> Another example is to apply a bounty to the question
<marcoceppi> A bounty is a user (not necessarily the question asker) placing anywhere from 50-500 reputation points as a reward to whomever can answer the question and provide a solution
<marcoceppi> By doing so you can essentially "pay" a user for their hardwork in solving your question (complex, or otherwise)
<marcoceppi> However, you can't put a bounty for more rep than you actually have. So I'll dive into different ways to get rep
<marcoceppi> I've touched on asking great questions and providing stellar answers to those questions - that gets you upvotes, upvotes give you rep (typically 5-10 per vote depending on the situation)
<marcoceppi> However, rep is also rewarded to users who provide good questions. So if you're a new user, and you see a problem that could use fixing via editing, you can submit that edit to be reviewed by a higher reputationed user - and if accepted will score you 2 rep points per edit. So if you don't have an immediate question to ask and can't seem to provide a solution for some of the questions submitting e
<marcoceppi> dits to make that content even better
<marcoceppi> Will help to increase your reputation - gaining you more access to site functions!
<marcoceppi> Question askers can also "Accept" an answer
<marcoceppi> Doing so makes that as the solution which fixed the issue in the question, and tends to keep that answer to the top - regardless of votes. It also scores the answerer 15 additional rep points for providing a solution to the question asker
<marcoceppi> Rep is essentially awarded to users who constantly use the site, and participate whether it's providing content, or fixing content
<marcoceppi> Next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: when using AU iI've always gone to http://askubuntu.com/questions but going to home page all questions are truncated.  I assume this 'NoScript' kic=king in as there is a list of 4 scripts from outside sources being stopped.. why such a list of baddies such as "quantserve & adzerk"?
<marcoceppi> Ah, that's probably the "Ads" on the site. Quantserve is the service StackExchange uses for it's in house ad network to promote ads relative to the community and StackExchange community
<marcoceppi> So they're "Ads" in that they either advertise ads we've created here: http://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/1089/community-promotion-ads-1h-2011 which are all submitted by community members, or they show ads for other sites in StackExchange network: http://stackexchange.com/sites
<marcoceppi> These ads are designed for users, not for advertisers to make money. You're probably seeing this as a result of Adblock or some other form of ad manipulation
<jcastro> QUESTION: one of the issues I have had is posting images/screenshots to help people but because I am new on the site..I cannot..Is that going to be permanent
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<marcoceppi> Posting images is limited to users who have a certain reputation level (to avoid blatant trolling and spam) If you post the image URL a higher repudiation user can edit it to be displayed or when you gain enough reputation (http://askubuntu.com/privileges)
<marcoceppi> So, to answer your question - yes it's temporary
<marcoceppi> After 10 reputation points you'll be able to post images, and majority of the other post actions http://askubuntu.com/privileges/new-user
<marcoceppi> Next?
<jcastro> more questions?
<marcoceppi> While it may seem rather harsh - it's not very difficult to achieve 10 reputation points. However, the damage of having an offensive or lude picture posted 50 times by a bot would have it's concequences in the quality of the site.
<jcastro> ANy other tips marcoceppi?
<jcastro> (we also have time for one more question!)
<marcoceppi> I'll start typing, feel free to pop one more question in!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> One thing I do is self document
<jcastro> if I'm in the middle of a task
<jcastro> and I can't find the answer I want on google
<jcastro> I post it as a question and answer it
<jcastro> in the past I would blog it
<marcoceppi> The site is designed to be a quality source of questions and their relevant answers. As I tell most people, when you're asking a question - take your time, write it out, add all the information you could fathom that is relevant. If a user requests additional information from you via comments edit it back into your original question rather then responding via another comment. Cutting down communica
<marcoceppi> tion and getting all the content organized in a orderly fashion will help keep the site relevant
<jcastro> but at least this way the peer review can keep the answer up to date
<jcastro> ok outta time!
<jcastro> duanedesign: ready?
<jcastro> marcoceppi: thanks for the lesson, cheers!
<marcoceppi> I fear I'm out of time - Thank you all for your questions I'll leave you with a few links: http://askubuntu.com/ http://meta.askubuntu.com/ and http://chat.askubuntu.com/ and another example question http://askubuntu.com/questions/20543/how-do-i-get-a-boxee-remote-working
<marcoceppi> Thanks!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Your Desktop Oughta be in Pictures - Instructors: duanedesign
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/05/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<duanedesign> hello everyone
<duanedesign> I am going to be giving a session on doing screencasts, and doing them well.
<duanedesign> A screencast is a digital video in which the setting is partly or wholly a computer screen, and in which audio narration describes the on-screen action.
<duanedesign> A bit of trivia for you. In 2004, columnist Jon Udell invited readers of his blog to propose names for the emerging genre. Udell selected the term screencast, which was proposed by both Joseph McDonald and Deeje Cooley.
<duanedesign> There are many different ways to make screencasts and different applications you can use. I will show you one way and will use as many default applications as possible.
<duanedesign> The applications you will need for making a screencast are:
<duanedesign> gtk-recordmydesktop - records desktop video/audio.
<duanedesign> their are three packages in the repository. packages: recordmydesktop gtk-recordmydesktop qt-recordmydesktoop
<duanedesign> recordmydesktop being the commandline utility. gtk-recordmydesktop, for gnome, and qt-recordmydesktop, for KDE, are GUIs for that commandline utility
<duanedesign> piTiVi = for editing video, combining audio and video and re-encoding to other formats.
<duanedesign> audacity - recording and editing audio
<duanedesign> openoffice.org - for titles at the beginning and end of your screencast
<duanedesign> VirtualBox - virtualization enviroment. package: virtualbox-ose
<duanedesign> This last one is optional. But their are advantages to use a VM which I will touch on later
<duanedesign> or know :)
<duanedesign> In a VM you can record your screencast from a default install. This way your custom themes, icons and setup will not confuse a user.
<duanedesign> A VM allows you to save snapshots. This make it easy to go back to your VM setup before the demo. Ideal for rehearsing your screencast as well as making it easy to keep a standard default install.
<duanedesign> that is nice if your screencast involves installing packages.
<duanedesign> if you end up doing multiple takes you will quickly get tired of uninstalling all the packes to start over
<duanedesign> If the intention is to demonstrate application usage and/or the host configuration is sufficiently similar to a standard install a VM is not necessary.
<duanedesign> Or you can use a Guest Session. Guest Sessions do not have snapshots but do have the other advantges
<duanedesign> The first step, after installing the appropriate software, is to make an outline.
<duanedesign> Decide exactly what it is you are wanting to show. Keep the videocasts short and focused. Cover only one topic in each videocast.
<duanedesign> No 3 hour epics :)
<duanedesign> After you have an outline, you will make a script. The script will cover what you want to say and do during the screencast.
<duanedesign> I recommend using storyboards for writing your script
<duanedesign> This helps you visualize the script and visuals together.
<duanedesign> I have a couple on my people .ubuntu.com page
<duanedesign> http://people.ubuntu.com/~duanedesign/screencasting/
<duanedesign> not the .ogv but the other two files ;)
<duanedesign> one is for 16:9 screen the other is 4:3.
<duanedesign> I have found the Gnome, and other style guides, help me write a script that is clear. concise and consistent. Though a lot of it is geared towards written documentation there is a lot of relevant stuff when it comes to grammar usage and terminology.
<duanedesign> Some examples of grammar usage tips would be, do not superfluous adverbs like simply, easily, quickly. Do not apply emotion, desires, or opinions. Avoid stuff like 'This app is awesome', instead maybe 'This app has helped me ...'
<duanedesign> Also the Style Guides help with some of the GUI terminology. Here is an example from the Gnome Style Guide showing you what different part of the windows are called.
<duanedesign> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/preface-1.html.en
<duanedesign>  This helps create consistency across a wide range of resources.
<duanedesign> ensuring that we are all calling a radio button, a radio button and not confusing people
<duanedesign> Once you get your script done, You will want to rehearse the steps you are going to take. This is a good opportunity to develop and refine your script.
<duanedesign> To do this start a virtual machine running the operating system and application which is to be demonstrated. Go through the software and practice the steps to be demonstrated. You might need to do this a couple of times until you are comfortable with the steps and you know the script very well.
<duanedesign> Speak clearly, slowly, and enunciate. The primary reason for negative feedback when it comes to screencasts is that the presenter is talking too fast or using a lot of 'umm'.
<duanedesign> Once you are familiar with the steps you will be taking, it is time to record the screencast.
<duanedesign> If the demo requires the installation of additional packages then to save time it can be preferable to setup the necessary repositories, download the necessary packages without installing them, then remove the repositories.
<duanedesign> This of course assumes that you want to show how to enable repositories and install software
<duanedesign> To download packages and not install them use apt-get with the -d option: apt-get -d packagename1 packagename2 ...
<duanedesign> Now the steps of recording the screencast.
<duanedesign> Start a virtual machine running the operating system and application which is to be demonstrated.
<duanedesign> Start a recording application to capture the contents of the virtual machine window.
<duanedesign> Start a recording application to capture the contents of the virtual machine window.
<duanedesign> you only have to do that once :)
<duanedesign> With recordmydesktop you can control it from the GUI or the commandline.
<duanedesign> I will mostly cover the GUI way of doing things
<duanedesign> If you are interested in using the commandline I suggest the command 'man recordmydesktop'. Additionally you can find an example command, and one i often use, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts/RecordMyDesktop#Command%20Line
<duanedesign> With the GUI to record either left-click the icon in the panel or click the record button in the main window
<duanedesign> main window - http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/rug/p1_1a.php
<duanedesign> If you do not want to capture the entire desktop there are three ways of selecting the area on which you will confine the recording.
<duanedesign> Using the preview thumbnail on the main window you can draw a window with the crosshairs.
<duanedesign> Using the Select Window  button and then select a window on your desktop.
<duanedesign>  Using the Select Area on Screen function accessed by right-clicking on the panel icon.
<duanedesign> dditional info on defining an area - http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/rug/p1_2b.php
<duanedesign> additional*
<duanedesign> now you will Go through the software and execute the steps you rehearsed.
<duanedesign> aside from being mindful of how you are speaking you also need to consider your mousse movements.
<duanedesign> avoid excessive mouse movements
<duanedesign> It is sometimes preferable to record the video first, and add in the audio later. If you're sufficiently able to multi task reading aloud instructions whilst doing them, then record audio and video together.
<duanedesign> doing them seperately though has some advantages
<duanedesign> When doing them together you have to do both parts perfect.
<duanedesign> Ok so it is recorded. Now watch the screencast to ensure all is ok.
<duanedesign> If it looks good add a 'intro', 'outro' slides to the start and end of the screencast.
<duanedesign> the first part of that is important. Make sure it looks good. You are severly degrading the efectiveness of your screencast when it is not done well.
<duanedesign> take the time to do do it over until you nail it. We are looking for professional quality screencasts. You can find some examples of professional looking screencasts by looking at....excuse me I do not have a FOSS related link in front of me.  http://tinyurl.com/6l67xqo
<duanedesign> those are microsoft office screecasts.
<duanedesign> i can hear the booing and hisses through the internet :)
<duanedesign> ok, add a 'intro', 'outro' slides to the start and end of the screencast.
<duanedesign> Again there are different ways to do this. I will show you one way
<duanedesign> Open OpenOffice Presentation. Make a slide containing the graphics and text you want. Maximise the presentation of the first (header) slide within the virtual machine. You can do this by running Slideshow -> Slideshow
<duanedesign> (f5) in OpenOfffice. Using the same process as you did for the main demo record 5-10 seconds. Repeat for the [footer] slid
<duanedesign> slide*
<duanedesign> if you are recording your audio and video seperately now, after making your intro and outro slides, would be a good time to record the audio
<duanedesign> audacity is what i use for that
<duanedesign> on audio a nice microphone makes a world of difference. But alot of us have only our laptop or monitor microphone. So if you are using your default microphone make sure your levels are turned up correctly and you are an appropriate distance from the microphone
<duanedesign> You do not want to be shouting, but you also do not want to be so close that everytime you use a word iththe letter P your audio distorts and you bust your users eardrums.
<duanedesign> once you have the pieces time to put them together
<duanedesign> Ubuntu now has a movie editor, Pitivi, installed by default.
<duanedesign> Use the Import Clips button in Pitivi to bring your screencast and the header and footer video clips you did into the project. Then you simply click on the clip thumbnails in the upper left of your screen and drag them from the Clip Library to the Timeline. Do this for each clip placing them sequentially in the timeline.
<duanedesign>  When you are ready to output the video, select 'Render Project'.
<duanedesign> Check the combined audio/video/intro/outro for errors/glitches/sync problems.
<duanedesign> again think quality
<duanedesign> Optionally if you wish encode/compress screencast to other formats.
<duanedesign> that is one way to do screencasts and one set of tools.
<duanedesign> their are other apps for recording your screen. kazam is one that I have used before http://launchpad.net/kazam
<duanedesign> i have also created a script that uses ffmpeg and parec to record screencasts
<duanedesign> you can find instructions to use it and a link to download it on my blog. http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/blog/?p=175
<duanedesign> if you have an interest in making screencasts we have a Screencast Team in the community
<duanedesign> we would love to have you. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/
<duanedesign> you can also find an outline of the steps i went over here on the Screencast Team wiki
<duanedesign> any questions.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<duanedesign> darn my aversion to question marks.
<duanedesign> any questions?
<duanedesign> thats better :)
<ClassBot> j1mc asked: is something like kdenlive a better tool for video editing, even if it uses Qt stuff? Or is pitivi pretty good?
<duanedesign> j1mc: i have not used kdenlive but it looks llike a very capable tool.
<duanedesign> as long as you can import the clips you record and put them together you are good to go.
<ClassBot> jo-erlend asked: on both my laptops, running 11.04 and using Unity, I'm having bug problems with the video from grecordmydesktop.  Small squares are not drawn og only parts of the screen is drawn. Are there better tools to capture Unity in action? Can this be driver issues?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<duanedesign> I had a similar issue. If you read my blog post link i posted that issue was the genesis for me creating the screencast script
<duanedesign> jo-erlend: you might give it a try i would be more then happy to answer any questions you have about using it
<duanedesign>  http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/blog/?p=175
<duanedesign> ^^in case you missed it
<duanedesign> ok, out of questions and out of time
<duanedesign> Thank you everyone for lending me your eyeballs
<duanedesign> i look forward to seeing all your great screencasts out their on the intertubes
<valorie> Hello, I'm Valorie Zimmerman, a Kubuntu Member. I'd like to tell you about Kubuntu, my favorite Linux distribution ever. https://launchpad.net/~valorie-zimmerman
<valorie> I have some prepared stuff, but I hope you'll ask lots of questions too
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Kubuntu - Instructors: valorie
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/05/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<valorie> heh
<valorie> Hello, I'm Valorie Zimmerman, a Kubuntu Member. I'd like to tell you about Kubuntu, my favorite Linux distribution ever. https://launchpad.net/~valorie-zimmerman
<valorie> Kubuntu is friendly computing. Kubuntu is part of the Ubuntu community, and since it uses the KDE Plasma Desktop, it is also part of the KDE community. As a Debian-based distribution, many of our developers are part of the Debian community as well. Also, we cooperate with Gnome through the FreeDesktop initiative, and hold a large joint developer summit with them every other year. Friendly!
<valorie> As an official part of Ubuntu, we share the same system and distribution schedule, as well as Launchpad, the wiki, mail lists, IRC name-space, and Ubuntu-Forum. Many Kubuntu users also post on the KDE Forums, and there is the independent Kubuntuforums.net as well. Also, if you become a Kubuntu Member, you are also a Ubuntu Member. :-)
<valorie> http://forum.kde.org/ - http://ubuntuforums.org/ - IRC channel #kubuntu , and #kubuntu-offtopic
<valorie> Wiki: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu
<valorie> If you like lists, the Kubuntu user list is great: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-users
<valorie> hmmm, no questions yet
<valorie> I have a few questions which are common
<valorie> Is Kubuntu a fork of Ubuntu? No, it is an official part of Ubuntu. All our packages are in the same archives. In fact, you can use Kubuntu packages in Ubuntu without installing Kubuntu itself. Kubuntu users can use their favorite Ubuntu apps as well.
<valorie> I already have Ubuntu installed, how can I get Kubuntu? Install kubuntu-desktop with Software Center, Synaptic,  or the command line apt-get install:
<valorie> sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<valorie> See InstallingKDE for a full explanation: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingKDE
<valorie> I've been asked to be slower
<valorie> this is the first time I've done this
<valorie> so I'm a little nervous
<valorie> Would you like to take a short tour around Kubuntu? http://www.kubuntu.org/feature-tour
<valorie> Wikipedia has an excellent article about Kubuntu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubuntu
<valorie> I hope I don't overwhelm with links, but there is great stuff out there!
<valorie> we have a friendly, hard-working community
<valorie> and are community driven
<valorie> Main website: http://www.kubuntu.org/ . Here users will find news about new apps, themes, and wallpapers available, and find links to help (user) documentation, team coordination and developer documentation.
<valorie> Questions would be great!
<valorie> we have one exciting project this cycle, Project Neon
<valorie> Contributions "upstream" to Debian and KDE - a team of our Kubuntu packagers have developed Project Neon, which provides daily builds of KDE trunk. https://launchpad.net/~neon , https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/ProjectNeon
<valorie> the young guys are really enthusiastic and knowledgeable
<valorie> fun to work with
<valorie> Join our community! We need expert users who are willing to help out the newcomers in IRC, the list and the forums, we need folks to translate, to write and update documentation, to make our website beautiful and useful, package, triage and kill bugs.
<valorie> Challenges ahead: we are losing our founder Jonathan Riddell for a cycle, at least as a full-time staff member. We have an ambitious initiative called Project Timelord, which has been designed to improve developer workflow, and bring and keep Kubuntu at the top of the available distros.
<valorie> so we will especially welcome more hands on deck
<valorie> from
<valorie> <shadeslayer> New contributors to Neon are always welcome ... we need loads of testers and people who are willing to maintain  new packages and what not for the long term :)
<valorie> [09:14] <shadeslayer> we idle in #project-neon  ;)
<valorie> for sure
<valorie> but they are working hard, not much idling!
<valorie> please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and start with QUESTION:
<valorie> so I can see it properly
<valorie> we have a bot to help
<valorie> and I welcome questions
<valorie> :-)
<ClassBot> josker asked: ubuntu comes with the unity, kubuntu will implement something in that way with kde ?
<valorie> we are working with KDE upstream and with Gnome in opendesktop, to come up with sound menus and such
<valorie> I'm not a developer, so I only know a bit about that, from listening in the devel channel
<valorie> we already have our netbook version, which anyone with kubuntu installed can try out
<valorie> it's a setting in systemsettings
<valorie> when you install onto a netbook, that is the interface which will be automatically displayed, but if you would rather the classic interface
<valorie> you just change it in systemsettings
<valorie> super simple
<ClassBot> himcesjf asked: Hi valorie. Great information #ubuntu-classroom! Could you introduce me about graphics which Kubuntu uses? Like the compositing types openGL and XRender, etc ...
<valorie> this is a bit technical for me, however, openGL and XRender are two of the choices available, simply again in systemsettings
<valorie> people sometimes think that KDE is graphics-heavy
<valorie> however, the various desktop effects are easily turned on and off, as well as the rendering mode
<valorie> what works for you best, depends on your installed drivers, speed of your equipment, and your preferences, really
<valorie> is that specific enough, himcesjf?
<ClassBot> doctormo asked: You mention 'opendesktop' is this a different group from freedesktop.org?
<valorie> oops, I might have misspoken
<valorie> freedesktop.org is where we collaborate
<valorie> and ever other year, I think it is, we actually meet together
<valorie> this summer, KDE and Gnome are meeting in Berlin
<ClassBot> doctormo asked: Has there been any update on Akonadi and what do you feel about further chaos with the new elementary postler backend? Is the KDE community concerned at all about fragmentation of data standards?
<valorie> akonadi seems to run well to me, but I'll have to say I don't know much about it specifically
<valorie> not sure what the "elementary postler backend" might be -- have not heard that phrase, sorry
<valorie> I think everyone is worried about the fragmentation of standards
<valorie> I'm not sure what the solution to that is, beyond continuing to work with everybody
<valorie> that said, KDE is upstream of Kubuntu
<valorie> and while we work with them, Kubuntu is an Ubuntu distro
<valorie> I mentioned Project Timelord earlier
<valorie> Project Timelord: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord
<valorie> for those who are interested
<valorie> I have one question in queue I don't know the answer to
<valorie> don't mean to ignore anyone, but I'm not a developer
<valorie> I do want to encourage non-developers to become part of the community, whether it is Kubuntu, Ubuntu, or one of the other flavors
<valorie> or even part of an application team
<valorie> Community is more important than code
<valorie> we need community people, we need documentation
<valorie> we need enthusiastic people writing, and making screencasts, and art, and all other kinds of things
<valorie> of course we need coders and packagers
<valorie> they make it happen
<valorie> but people like me can contribute too, and that's why I was granted membership
<valorie> Want to see a video? David Wonderly (DarkwingDuck) did this talk at SCaLe: http://people.ubuntu.com/~david.wonderly/scale also available here: http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale9x/presentations/your-guide-kubuntu
<ClassBot> himcesjf asked: How often is KDE version updated in Kubuntu wrt to KDE releases?
<valorie> each time KDE makes a point release, our packagers make it a point of pride to be the first to release it
<valorie> not absolutely sure we make it *every* time
<valorie> since I haven't been around forever
<valorie> :-)
<valorie> but we often are first to have it up in a beta PPA, or in backports where that is possible
<valorie> since I like testing, I'm nearly always running the latest KDE version
<ClassBot> himcesjf asked: Would you introduce me on application framework/toolkits Qt/GTK+ with reference to Kubuntu/KDE?
<valorie> heh
<valorie> this is a bit over my head, but we use Qt
<valorie> ubuntu itself is starting to use Qt as well
<valorie> and KDE applications are all in C++ using Qt
<valorie> we do often work with GTK applications as well, since any app which Ubuntu offers is available in Kubuntu as well
<valorie> if you are using our Oxygen theme, which is standard
<valorie> you can get a GTK-Oxygen plugin (I think it's a plugin) to help your GTK apps look more "kubuntu"
<valorie> we have a great channel #kubuntu where there are extremely knowledgeable people to answer technical questions
<valorie> and for packaging problems and such, #kubuntu-devel channel is also very helpful
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: what is being done in regards to nvidia issues with drivers locking up a system rather badly. i posted a bug and got alot of confirmations, latest one and suggestion is downgrading xorg as well as nvidia drivers whats canonical doing to ensure newer drivers fix this issue
<valorie> hmmm, eagles didn't stick around
<valorie> and I don't know the answer to this one anyway
<valorie> I monitor the #kubuntu channel when I have time
<valorie> and I don't see many driver problems
<valorie> I don't have time to monitor #ubuntu , so I'm not sure if there is a wide-spread issue or not
<valorie> bugs are certainly worth filing
<valorie> the developers work hard to smush all of them flat
<valorie> :-)
<ClassBot> josker asked: what are you opnion about having both apps with QT and GTK in kubuntu, sometime i get bad looking with GTK app with kde.
<valorie> I
<valorie> 'm not sure what the package is called
<valorie> but search for GTK and Oxygen
<valorie> and install that package
<valorie> should make your GTK applications much more attractive, josker
<valorie> for more of a technical perspective,
<valorie> The expert speaks - Jonathan Riddell, Kubuntu is Awesome from 10.10 OpenWeek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekMaverick/KubuntuIsAwesome
<valorie> that's in the past, but good stuff there!
<valorie> we have a few more minutes, so I'm open for more questions
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<valorie> shadeslayer says, very kewl blogpost http://hugo-kde.blogspot.com/2010/11/oxygen-gtk.html
<valorie> about the oxygen-gtk issue
<valorie> and http://hugo-kde.blogspot.com/2011/04/taste-of-things-to-come.html
<valorie> I blog at linuxgrandma.blogspot.com
<valorie> you are welcome to raise questions there, or chime in with your own suggestions
<valorie> I try to work through the problems I encounter
<valorie> mostly so I have the blog to consult next time I founder!
<valorie> but I get great ideas from my commenters
<valorie> to wrap up then, since there are no questions
<valorie> I would like all of you who are interesting to apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<valorie> and give it a try
<valorie> if you like it, but encounter difficulties, please ask for help in #kubuntu
<valorie> very friendly, helpful channel
<valorie> and ubottu hangs out there too, with helpful hints on tap
<valorie> and if you are interested in joining the team, please stop in at #kubuntu-devel and tell us how you would like to contribute
<valorie> we're friendly, and will welcome your help
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<valorie> this was a great experience
<valorie> thanks everyone!
<valorie> now for our next great speaker!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Documentation is a big place: Learn how you can contribute to Ubuntu documentation - Instructors: j1mc
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/05/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<j1mc> Hi everyone. Thanks for joining me today to talk about Documentation for Ubuntu!
<j1mc> It would be bad if the documentation folks didn't come prepared for their session with some words
<j1mc> but I also want you to be able to ask questions, so please feel free to ask questions when you have them.
<j1mc> So... Let's get started
<j1mc> The title of this session is, "Documentation is a big place: Learn how you can contribute to Ubuntu documentation,"
<j1mc> and I've chosen that title for a reason.
<j1mc> There's a lot more to creating good user help than just being a good writer
<j1mc> and I think documentation can be a rewarding place to contribute, regardless of your skill set or area of interest.
<j1mc> This session is intended for people who are looking to contribute to Ubuntu user help in all of its forms. This includes:
<j1mc> Writers, editors, programmers, technical writers, translators, sysadmins, graphic designers, web developers, content strategists (people who help organize large amounts of information), and others.
<j1mc> a lot of different kinds of people! :)
<j1mc> This session will focus on these things:
<j1mc> - Who are our users, and what kind of help do we provide for them?
<j1mc> - The skills we use and the types of things we work on as part of contributing documentation for Ubuntu
<j1mc> - How you can get involved
<j1mc> sound good?
<j1mc> To get started with our first topic, what kind of help do we provide?
<j1mc> As you might expect, the list is pretty big
<j1mc> I will chunk-out some of the areas that we focus on.  The items with an asterisk are currently handled by the "Ubuntu Core Docs" team
<j1mc> but you can look to contribute to other areas if you want to:
<j1mc> Let's start with desktop help
<j1mc> we have...
<j1mc> * The Ubuntu desktop guide (this is what you see when you search for 'help' in the Dash)
<j1mc> * Documentation for Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Mythbuntu, etc.)
<j1mc> */- Applications that are installed in Ubuntu (This could include stuff like from Gedit and the Software Center or even Ubuntu One)
<j1mc> I put an "*/-" in front of the application help because Ubuntu-docs team members are very good about contributing upstream application help.
<j1mc> but not all of it is done by us
<j1mc> Ubuntu docs people have written help for Banshee, gedit, evince, Empathy, and more.
<j1mc> We also wrote huge portions of the Gnome3 help.
<j1mc> We have a great relationship between upstream Gnome docs and Ubuntu docs, and we work together to help each other out.
<j1mc> There is also the Ubuntu Manual (technically, the Ubuntu Manual project is a separate project, but they are a group that is producing help for Ubuntu, too, and our camps are starting to bridge a little bit.)
<j1mc> ... is my pace ok for you all?  :)
<j1mc> no comments mean i guess my pace is ok
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> ok... but we do more than desktop help
<j1mc> there is also server docs and Ubuntu infrastructure help
<j1mc> The Ubuntu Server Guide ( /me looks at sysadmins... à² _à²  )
<j1mc> There is also Ubuntu Cloud documentation (This is a discussion for the coming UDS...)
<j1mc> The Ubuntu Packaging Guide (still a work-in-progress, but it's coming along!)
<j1mc> Developer documentation
<j1mc> Just to reiterate, these aren't *all* handled by the Docs team, but there is room to contribute in all of these areas if any of them strike your fancy. There are a few other areas, too:
<j1mc> The Ubuntu wiki: a wiki written for those who want to contribute to Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com
<j1mc> All of the "team" stuff for various Ubuntu teams is there. It is largely maintained by the individual teams. There are lots of teams.
<j1mc> The docs team has our own wiki page on there, too. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<j1mc> more on that later, though.
<j1mc> We also have the Ubuntu Community wiki (a wiki written for users, by users: https://help.ubuntu.com/community )
<j1mc> Some people file bugs against the community wiki in Launchpad, but it is not maintained by the docs team. You can edit it yourself!
<j1mc> That is most of my list, though...
<j1mc> Has this list made you want to cry?
<j1mc> How can we approach all of this help?
<j1mc> Isn't documentation supposed to be boring?
<j1mc> Although a large part of creating documentation involves the actual writing, creating good user help involves a lot of different skills.
<j1mc> Now that we have explored what all we produce, I would like to transition to my second topic: what skills and areas of expertise we use (or want to start using!) to create all of that user help.
<j1mc> before I do so, though...
<j1mc> let me look for questions. remember to precede your question by typing QUESTION:
<j1mc> someone asked: im noticing alot of chatter on  translation list about translating  the ubuntu docs for each loco team  how is that being moved forward
<j1mc> we were late with the 11.04 docs (for various reasons)
<j1mc> we have now opened up the docs for translations, though
<j1mc> and will be doing stable-release updates for 11.04
<j1mc> as more docs are translated
<j1mc> things will be much better for the 11.10 release, though
<j1mc> thank you for that question!
<j1mc> ok... what kinds of skills do we use? what approaches do we take as part of the project to produce this work?
<j1mc> Of course, there is writing, but what else is in our list?
<j1mc> Editing (lots of revisions), Application programming (programming the front- and back-end of the help browser ... yes, some hackers work on documentation!)
<j1mc> XML Schema development (Hack, code, hack, code... drink coffee), Refining our XSLT transformations (Woo! More hackers!)
<j1mc> Packaging skills for getting the documentation into Ubuntu, Providing documentation updates in prior releases
<j1mc> Collaborating with translation teams to translate the documentation
<j1mc> wiki maintenance
<j1mc> bug triage
<j1mc> Graphics and Design (there are pictures in Ubuntu docs now... welcome to the future)
<j1mc> Web Development (This is a bit of a 'future development'...)
<j1mc> Content strategy (This is stuff like style guides, accessibility guidelines, content templates, taxonomies, user personas, workflow recommendations, etc.)
<j1mc> see, there's lots of places to dig in!
<j1mc> you don't have to be a programmer to help out, but those are just some of the areas where you *can* help out
<j1mc> with so many choices, it might seem overwhelming
<j1mc> If documentation is a big place, how can you find your own room?
<j1mc> will there be people down the hall that you can talk to?
<j1mc> how can you find the bathroom?  :(
<j1mc> Ok, maybe I'm taking that metaphor too far, but the question is, "How can you get involved? Where can you get get started?"
<j1mc> Wow, what a nice segue to my next topic
<j1mc> how you can get involved
<j1mc> The most important part of just to pick something that interests you.
<j1mc> Take some time to consider it, what would be neat to work on?
<j1mc> What do you think you might be good at?
<j1mc> Where is there work that needs to be done?
<j1mc> The teams are somewhat separate between Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu
<j1mc> but we all work together under the same umbrella
<j1mc> We're all part of the larger docs team
<j1mc> Once you have a rough idea of where you may want to contribute, dig in.
<j1mc> ask questions
<j1mc> With the Ubuntu Docs team, the best way to get involved is to join our mailing list, and introduce yourself.
<j1mc> The mailing list is here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<j1mc> Don't fret over not knowing enough or put a lot of pressure on yourself--it takes time to learn.
<j1mc> If you pick something that you think will be interesting, and then later find out that it is boring and lame, you can switch to something else. It can take a while to find your niche.
<j1mc> You can also peruse our archives to see what kinds of topics we've been talking about lately: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/
<j1mc> In your introduction, you should explain a little about yourself, what drew you to the team, what skills you have, and what you may be interested in working on.
<j1mc> In your introduction, you should explain a little about yourself, what drew you to the team, what skills you have, and what you may be interested in working on...
<j1mc> and you could contribute to documentation for that feature.
<j1mc> Or maybe you know a lot about packaging, you could contribute to the Ubuntu Packaging Guide.
<j1mc> The team has worked a lot to improve our help for 11.04, but there is still a lot more to do
<j1mc> We are in the process of laying out some strategic goals
<j1mc> as well as some specific goals for 11.10
<j1mc> so now is a great time to get involved
<j1mc> We have two blueprints that are lined up for this coming UDS. One on strategy, and one on our goals for the 11.10 release.
<j1mc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-ubuntu-docs-strategy
<j1mc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-ubuntu-docs-goals-oneiric
<j1mc> If you join the mailing list now, you'll be in a great spot to identify areas where you can contribute for this coming release.
<j1mc> Briefly, some big-picture areas that we're looking to focus on include better help on the web, leveraging community-based help, and building Ubuntu as a platform for technical writers.
<j1mc> There are lots of deliverables included in that, and we'll need to identify particular goals for each release that will get us closer to those long-term goals.
<j1mc> our team wiki has info about how to join the team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<j1mc> And there is a contributors page in launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors
<j1mc> On IRC, we hang out in #ubuntu-doc on the freenode network (this one!)
<j1mc> *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ ***
<j1mc> : )
<j1mc> That is most of what I had prepared to talk about today, so now we have some extra time to go over things
<j1mc> ask / answer questions
<j1mc> Talk about how much we're improving docs
<j1mc> please remember to start your questions with QUESTION
<j1mc> shaunm asks: how many documents is ubuntu-core-doc in charge of?
<j1mc> i'd have to look, but in the documentation that we shipped with 11.04, I think we had about 170 different topics
<j1mc> for this release we worked largely off of upstream gnome documentation, and adapted it for ubuntu
<j1mc> that's another thing about picking an area that interests you
<j1mc> if you use a lot of the graphics tools...
<j1mc> you can contribute to the user help for shotwell (the app in ubuntu for handling your photos)
<j1mc> or you could even contribute to upstream inkscape or gimp help
<j1mc> of course, if you're a graphics pro (or want to be one), we could use your assistance with the images in ubuntu docs
<j1mc> another question asked what i meant by upstream... other distros using unity as an interface
<j1mc> i meant it more in the sense of gnome 3's interface
<j1mc> we used much of the structure that we created for gnome 3 help (the help layout) for the ubuntu 11.04 help
<j1mc> we will be tinkering with the layout a bit for 11.10, though
<j1mc> and will be working with gnome folks as we make those adjustments
<j1mc> share and share alike. :)
<j1mc> there is a lot of innovation going on in open-source help now, though.
<j1mc> this is good, because there is a lot of *room* for innovation at this time.  :)
<j1mc> we want to make free software user help top notch
<j1mc> one area that i forgot to mention includes OEMs
<j1mc> in a way, OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) are *downstream* of ubuntu docs
<j1mc> they can take what we create, and tweak it to suit their product
<j1mc> we want to make sure that our user help is appropriate for them, as well
<j1mc> In terms of the future direction for the docs: some of the enhancements that we are looking at include
<j1mc> - context-sensitive help
<j1mc> ... so if you're using Unity 2-d, you will automatically see help that is appropriate for the 2d version
<j1mc> ... or if you're using Kubuntu, you would see Kubuntu help
<j1mc> all automatically
<j1mc> - faceted navigation
<j1mc> ... so you can see only those topic areas that you are interested in
<j1mc> - a much more robust web presence
<j1mc> We're also in touch with folks from KDE to work together on a help browser that will integrate better with online help
<j1mc> If you have ideas around any of these topics, or if you just want to help with writing help for Ubuntu...
<j1mc> you are welcome to join us.  : )
<j1mc> thanks very much for your time today, everyone.  :)
<j1mc> joksher asked: Question:so far i've only seen user documentation, i mean a more friendly docs, there are any place where i  can find a more detailed doc about the system wide.
<j1mc> It sounds like you're asking for more broad-based user help... not just help on a particular topic...
<j1mc> but more generalized help on just using the system .
<j1mc> for that, i would recommend the ubuntu manual.
<j1mc> the 11.04 manual isn't out yet, but they are working to get one out.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<j1mc> saimanoj52 asked about how to contribute through code. and how to learn how to contribute through code
<j1mc> for that i would look to some of the gnome documentation developer tutorials and look to the ubuntu packaging guide
<j1mc> if you go to library.gnome.org ...
<j1mc> you will find the developer tutorials
<j1mc> daniel holbach recently put up a blog post about the packaging guide
<j1mc> so if you search for his blog, you will find info on it
<j1mc> other questions?
<j1mc> (there is also a packaging guide on the wiki... but...
<j1mc> this new project is set to replace that
<j1mc> )
<j1mc> it will be easier to maintain the packaging guide in a non-wiki format, and it will be easier to translate, too.
<j1mc> just as a gentle nudge... if you're at all interested, join the mailing list and send us an introductory note.
<j1mc> thanks very much for your time today, everyone.  :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/05/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<louis89> slt
<thebirdsmail> e
<Street992> hy all
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-06
<andrus> how to change ubuntu Natty Narwhal back to Maverick Meerkat
<jbicha> andrus: please ask in #ubuntu
<kamal> testing 1 2 3
<kamal> ***** Ubuntu and Ham Radio ***** Session begins here in about 10 minutes *****
<kamal> Good morning / Good evening folks ...  we will get started with the session "Ubuntu and Ham Radio" in just a moment.  Please join us here, and also in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 * jcastro taps the mic
<jcastro> kamal: all set?
<kamal> jcastro: yup, lets get started :-)
<kamal> Hi folks, lets go with "Ubuntu and Ham Radio"! ....
<kamal> ==========================================
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu and Amateur (Ham) Radio - Instructors: sconklin, kamal
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<kamal> Amateur radio, often called ham radio, is both a hobby and a service in which licensed individuals ("hams") use various types of radio communications equipment to communicate with other hams -- locally, and around the globe -- for public services, recreation, and self-training.
<kamal> In order to transmit on ham frequencies, you must hold an amateur radio license issued by your country's radio authority (the exam won't be hard for a technically minded person).
<kamal> But anyone can *receive* ham radio signals using a shortwave radio receiver, or over the Internet, as we'll demonstrate in a bit!
<kamal> If you do become a ham, you will be issued a "call sign", unique in all the world...
<kamal> I'm Kamal Mostafa from Boulder Creek, California, USA.  My callsign is KA6MAL.
<sconklin> and I'm Steve Conklin from Madison, Alabama, USA.  My callsign is AI4QR.
<kamal> Today, we'll talk about just a few of aspects of ham radio...  If you have questions (and we hope you will!) please ask in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel using the format "QUESTION: What does CQ CQ mean?" so the ClassBot will recognize your question.
<kamal> With that, I'll turn it over to Steve AI4QR, to tell us about how hams serve our communities in major emergencies, and how Ubuntu helps us do it.
<sconklin> Amateur radio is really diverse, but you can't learn much about it without hearing about public service aspects
<sconklin> This is because time and again, when disasters strike, amateur radio has been the first communication method to be restored.
<sconklin> This is a timely topic for me, as I spent a lot of time last week helping with the recover after the tornadoes that struck Alabama
<sconklin> I've blogged an account of that, and please hold off reading it until after this hour here ;-)
<sconklin> But feel free to ask questions.
<sconklin> By the way, we'll continue any conversations here over in #ubuntu hams chat after the end of this session.
<sconklin> When the tornadoes came through here, they were reported live using ham radio.
<sconklin> After power was lost for over a million people in Alabama, ham radio provided critical communications.
<sconklin> http://illruminations.com/2011/05/04/april-27th-2011-tornadoes-and-the-week-following/
<sconklin> That's my brin dump on what I did for the week following.
<sconklin> er brain . . .
<sconklin> At one point during the tornados, even the municipal radio radio systems were off line, and they used an amateur radio repeater as a backup
<sconklin> You can hear that on the audio from our local repeater, recorded during the emergency
<sconklin> There's a lot of training available to help hams be prepared to respond to disasters. I'm preparing a long blog post about it, there's too much to list here.
<sconklin> The main representative organization for hams in the US is the American Radio Relay League (ARRL) http://www.arrl.org/, and their site has lots of resources linked.
<sconklin> I think their web site is a bit intimidating to new hams, but don't be put off
<sconklin> Questions?
<sconklin> Let me paste a link to the audio from the tornado day. April 27th. I will not forget the date
<sconklin> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/madscientistsclub
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: Not entirely on-topic, but do you get to chose your call signs? Like vehicle registration.
<sconklin> I was on the ait that day as what we call a "net control station" or NCS
<kamal> I can address the first question from nigelb ...
<sconklin> I only decided to stream the audio at the last minute, and used a receiver that is connected to an Ubuntu machine
<sconklin> go ahead Kamal
<kamal> yes, some countries do allow hams to select their own callsigns (within some limits).  I did select mine to match my name.
<ClassBot> saimanoj asked: What about the people in Other countries?
<sconklin> In most countries there are restirctions on the format of call signs according to the privileges your license has
<sconklin> And some allow custom call signs (called 'vanity' signs here)
<sconklin> One thing I would love to do as an ubuntu ham community is put together a set of wiki pages for many countries with country-specific information
<kamal> I will also chime in here...  saimanoj, if you're asking about how to become a ham in other countries ...
<kamal> I would advise you to search google for "ham radio {yourcountry}" ...
<kamal> you will certainly find lots of links to the active hams near you (and there will almost surely be many of them!)
<sconklin> also, you can try asking in #ubuntu-hams, we have a few countries represented in there most days
<kamal> they will be very happy to invite you to their local ham clubs and give you more information about how to become a ham in your country.
<sconklin> Unless there are questions about emergency communications, meybe we should move to the next topic
<kamal> We will pause for more questions in half a moment, but before we do ...
<kamal> The next segment of our session today will be about "Software Defined Radio" -- we'll get you set up listening to LIVE ham radio signals, using your web browser.
<kamal> First though, you'll need to make sure you have the Java web browser plugin installed...
<kamal> If you'd like to try this demo (and trust me, you do -- its very cool!) ...
<kamal> Please start up a terminal window, and cut-n-paste this command into it (without the '$'):
<kamal> $   sudo apt-get install sun-java6-plugin
<kamal> if it says says you already have the latest version installed, great!  otherwise, you will need to type your login password and answer "Y" if prompted.
<kamal> IMPORTANT: After installing the Java plugin, you'll need to close your web browser and start it up again.
<kamal> Lets wait a moment for everyone to get that Java plugin installed ...  any more questions in the meantime?
<kamal> Lets do this... if you've got the Java plugin installed, and your web browser up, raise your hand in #ubuntu-classroom-chat:    o/
<sconklin> from AC6SL: Information about amateur radio licensing in various countries is at http://www.qsl.net/oh2mcn/license.htm
<kamal> OK lets move on
<kamal> === SDR: really cool cutting edge radio stuff! ===
<kamal> "SDR" (Software Defined Radio) technology is what makes it possible for your whizbang new smartphone to support multiple radio modes and frequencies (3G, WiFi, GSM, CDMA) in one pocket-sized device.
<kamal> Traditional radio receivers are build from lots of electronics to select a specific radio signal and convert it to audio that humans can hear ...
<kamal> An SDR radio is built from just a tiny bit of electronics by comparison -- instead of doing all the work to select and convert signals, an SDR radio relies on a computer to do all that hard work (the computer in your smartphone, or maybe an Ubuntu system).
<kamal> Like a lot of radio science, much of the pioneering work on SDR technology was done by hams.
<kamal> A "WebSDR" is a radio receiver connected to the Internet which allows many listeners to use it simultaneously -- each with the ability to tune to the frequency of their choice.
<kamal> I'm going to show you a WebSDR receiver that you can use to listen to ham radio signals from around the world, using just your web browser!
<kamal> OK, start up your web browser, and visit this WebSDR site: http://w4mq.com/  .
<kamal> (If your browser prompts you asking for permission to run the Java plugin, do give it permission)
<kamal> If that site says its "too busy" ...
<kamal> then try this one instead:  http://outside.wallawalla.edu:8901/
<kamal> The award-winning SDR system at ham station W4MQ is near Washington D.C.  Its running Ubuntu, no surprise!
<kamal> Many other WebSDR systems (set up by different hams around the world) can be found at http://www.websdr.org/ but (unless it says its too busy)
<kamal> lets all try to jump onto one of those two (w4mq or wallawalla)
<kamal> After a moment, you should hear radio static!  yes?  no?   Answer in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<kamal> I'll pause for a moment to see if we can help some folks get this working
<kamal> the w4mq.com site seems busy, try the wallawalla site folks: http://outside.wallawalla.edu:8901/
<kamal> Or pick one at random from www.websdr.org
<kamal> OK, lets proceed ...
<kamal> Once you see the purple scrolling "waterfall windows", you should hear radio static
<kamal> Click the frequency digits below any of the three waterfall displays to tune to that frequency -- the yellow lines mark the frequency you're tuned and listening to.
<sconklin> once you have some vertical scrolling display, you may have to click in the area with the frequency display to actually be listening to a station
<kamal> You can also tune to a specific frequency by entering it into the Frequency: box below the waterfalls.
 * kamal is listening to 14014  right now
<sconklin> click the USB button also if you're trying to hear 14014
<kamal> In the "Bandwidth" block below the three waterfalls, the 'LSB' and 'USB' buttons will "flip" the audio signal that you hear ...
<kamal> If you hear a voice, but it sounds garbled, you're on the wrong USB/LSB mode setting -- note that switching between them moves your yellow marker "listening" position a bit though.
<kamal> For 1800 or 7100 kHz, use LSB   //   For 14000 kHz, use USB
<sconklin> USB stands for Upper Side Band, and means that the audio band you hear is located higher in frequency than the frequency that you are set to
<kamal> In general ...
<kamal> look for voice signals ... Frequency: 14200 +/-    Bandwidth: USB
<kamal> look for Morse code signals ...  Frequency: 14000 to 14100
<kamal> look for ham digital signals ...  Frequency:  14070    Bandwidth: USB
<kamal> from AC6SL: kamal: 14014 is a CW frequency where I hear W7Q calling CQ
<sconklin> very few voice signals at the moment
<kamal> from gordonjcp: look for SSTV on 14.230MHz
<kamal> ok, well I had hoped to find some voice signals for you to listen to, but ...
<kamal> I can't find any -- guess friday morning isn't the optimal time for that!  It will sure be hopping this weekend though!
<sconklin> Some of the websdr sites do not decode the parts of the ham bands commonly used for voice
<kamal> Check out some of the WebSDR sites on Saturday, especially around the 14200 KHz range -- you'll here hams from many countries making contacts with each other.
<kamal> After this session (or really any time), I'll be available in the #ubuntu-hams channel where I will demonstrate a more advanced set-up...
<kamal> By routing the audio from WebSDR to  ham radio digital communcations app called 'fldigi', you can search for and decode many different kinds of digital signals.
<kamal> You can *hear* some of those digital signals right now, by tuning your WebSDR to "14070 / USB"
<kamal> okay, brief pause for questions, then on to the last part of our presentation
<sconklin> for those interested in what the different types of digital signals they hear are, there's a good resource here:
<sconklin> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.20/Modes/index.htm
<kamal> And that leads us nicely to our last segment...   "Ham radio digital modes"
<kamal> Hams communicate using many different radio "modes" -- Morse code, various voice modes, and nowadays "digital modes" which use computers to encode and decode text or other information sent by radio.
<kamal> Here's a short screen capture video of me making a digital (keyboard-to-keyboard) contact with another ham station using the mode called "PSK31".
<kamal> (Of course, this is all on my Ubuntu system)!
<kamal>      fldigi - KA6MAL works W9JD using PSK31     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hlf_sUk358
<kamal> This particular mode (PSK31) is very slow (only 31 baud!) but also very effective for world-wide communications.
<kamal> In the video, you'll see the other station "W9JD" transmitting "CQ CQ" which means he's looking for anyone to contact him (not calling a particular ham).   I transmit my callsign "KA6MAL" in response and then we exchange a bit of information.
<kamal> Unfortunately, the audio of my transmitted signal didn't get recorded (the sound "mutes" in the video), but my signal sound just the same as his
<kamal> In this instance, he's participating in a ham radio contest called a "QSO Party" where hams in his state (Nebraska) try to make as many contacts as possible in a 24-hour period.
<kamal> Ham contests like this happen almost every weekend.  Participating in contests helps us keep our operating skills and our stations in top form (i.e. ready to go if an emergency strikes).  Plus, they're just a lot of fun!
<kamal> Okay, questions?
<sconklin> One of the properties of radio governed by basic physics is that the less frequency bandwidth you use to transmit a signal, the further you can be heard with the same amount of transmitted power. That's why morse code is very efficient, and why PSK31 mode is also efficient. I have worked stations around the world with a power output of 50 Watts on PSK31 - less than a light bulb!
<ClassBot> zerwas asked: Do you always transmit on the same frequency where you receive using digital modes?
<sconklin> I'll take this one
<sconklin> There are certain ranges of frequencies which are commonly used for certain types of activity - morse code, voice, and digital modes
<sconklin> Some of these are legal limitations, but within the ranges set out in the rules, there are conventions for where people meet
<sconklin> These are called "Band Plans", and while they may not have the force of 'law' they are generally abided by
<sconklin> So on the twenty meter band for example, PSK31 activity is just above 14.070 megahertz
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sconklin> Unless you want to answer someone, you don't transmit exactly on his frequency
<kamal> zerwas might have been asking about whether we sometimes contact other hams with one person transmitting on one frequency and the other person transmitting on a different frequency ...
<kamal> That is called "operating split" -- that method is used for Morse code and voice occasionally, but rarely for digital signal I think.
<sconklin> But since PSK31 signals are narrow, a lot fo them can fit in the same space as a voice would
<sconklin> If you are interested in electronics, you can buy cheap SDR hardware and build your own receiver. It's fun
<kamal> zerwas: There is no technical reason why you *couldn't* work a digital contact with "split" frequencies, its just not as useful as it would be in the Morse or voice situation.   More gory details about that in #ubuntu-hams later, if you like.
<sconklin> But that could fill another hour - we can take that to #ubuntu-hams
<kamal> ok, running out of time folks, and that's the end of our prepared presentation ...
<kamal> Any final questions?  Please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<sconklin> One final thing for fun
<sconklin> I'll not go into detail, but there is a ham technology called APRS (Automatic Packet Reporting System) which uses packets broadcast on one frequency by all users.
<sconklin> http://aprs.fi/?call=N56ML&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=10800
<sconklin> check this link
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sconklin> APRS is used with GPS to automatically report position of stations. What you see on that link is an airplane with APRS which is  right now flying over the tornado-ravaged area from last week's storms very near me.
<sconklin> It looks like he's doing aerial damage assessment.
<sconklin> There are so many diverse areas of amateur radio that you can spend a lifetime and not run out of new things to try.
<kamal> On that same aprs.fi page, in the panel at upper right, click the "Show All" link to see lots of other ham vehicles driving around in that area too!
<sconklin> Time to wrap it up, let's move to #ubuntu-hams for anyone interested
<kamal> Thanks very much for joining us!   We're usually on freenode in #ubuntu-hams if you want to drop by to talk about radio stuff -- everybody's welcome!
<kamal> More general info about ham radio:  http://www.hello-radio.org/whatis.html
<kamal> 73 de KA6MAL   (means "Best regards from KA6MAL" in ham lingo)
<sconklin> 73, de AI4QR
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Intro to Ubuntu Studio - Instructors: ScottL
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<ScottL> Hello everyone, this is Intro to Ubuntu Studio and I'm Scott Lavender, Ubuntu Studio project lead
<ScottL> before i launch into my shtick, is there anyone here with questions?
<ScottL> if not, i'll move swiftly into it
<ScottL> and i'll cover some commonly asked questions as well
<ScottL> right, Ubuntu Studio is an officially recognized derivative of Ubuntu
<ScottL> and as such shares the same code base as Ubuntu, specifically it uses the same repositories
<ScottL> this means that any package available in Ubuntu is available in Ubuntu Studio, the inverse is true as well
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio has some definitive differences however in it's settings to help people use multimedia applications
<ScottL> as well as some cosmetic changes, like a different theme and colors
<ScottL> i would like to mention that another big change coming up is our push to get the -lowlatency kernel into the universe repository
<ScottL> recent tests have shown that the -lowlatency kernel can half latencies (the time it takes for sound to be created, travel through your computer, and then be recorded/heard)
<ScottL> and once the -lowlatency kernel is in the repositories it can be included as the default kernel in Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> this will be quite a significant accomplishment for the audio folks who rely on Ubuntu Studio and Ubuntu
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio also varies from Ubuntu in the packages that are shipped with it
<ScottL> we tend not to install social media applications (e.g. gwibber) because this is not the focus of Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> this does not mean that it cannot be installed however
<ScottL> apt-get install is still your friend
<ScottL> we do ship numerous audio, video, and graphical applications for our users
<ScottL> the choice of which applications to be install was based on developing "work flows" :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ScottL> during the last cycle we decided to review what packages are shipped and take a "top down" approach
<ScottL> we explored what "tasks" or "goals" our users might want to accomplish, developed work flows on the available tool chains that supported these tasks/goals
<ScottL> i should point out that not all of the work flows on that link are supported in the release, we need to do some administrative work to that page to parse them as such still
<ScottL> the result was that we ended up shipping fewer applications, having a smaller ISO image, but yielded a more effective distro
<ScottL> any questions at this point?
<ScottL> one of the common questions that is asked is about installing Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> many times (for various reasons) people would prefer to install vanilla Ubuntu first, and then install the Ubuntu Studio packages and people want to know if this is possible
<ScottL> the answer is absolutely!
<ScottL> however, there is a little more to it than simply adding the packages
<ScottL> there are a few settings that need to be adjusted in order to make sure your system is configured the best to run JACK and other audio applications
<ScottL> this is a good page for users to visit:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> and if you look for "upgrade from Ubuntu" under installation you will find more information about that
<ScottL> !q
<ScottL> ClassBot, !q
<ClassBot> josker asked: when you said that ubuntu studio will ship lowlatency kernel, the changes will be made only into the sound driver ?
<ScottL> josker, good question!
<ScottL> the primary reasons for doing this (from a Ubuntu Studio perspective) is for the reason you stated, it helps improve performance for audio
<ScottL> however...
<ScottL> some people have reported that their desktop feels "snappier" as well
<ScottL> unfortunately, no one has provided data to support that report
<ScottL> i hope that answered your question josker, if not let me know
<ScottL> another question asked is about networking and wifi
<ScottL> historically we have shipped gnome-network-manager and our laptop users have reported significant trouble getting their wifi configured and running
<ScottL> this is especially true for new users
<ScottL> during Natty we made a decision to move to network-manager, which I believe is what ships with vanilla Ubuntu
<ScottL> another question (from last year's open week) was regarding wallpapers, GDM backgrounds, and text colors
<ScottL> the questions regarded how busy the wallpaper/background was and also how the text color was similar to the text box color in some cases
<ScottL> while we didn't make any progress on this during Natty I do expect some rather large changes in Ocelot
<ScottL> we have recently added an Art Lead to the team who will be focusing on these issues along with others
<ScottL> we also have a few other improvements scheduled for Ocelot
<ScottL> i've mentioned our goals for the -lowlatency kernel and theming/artwork issues
<ScottL> we are planning our timeline for Ocelot and tentatively have plans to do the following:
<ScottL>  * update the website
<ScottL> the website hasn't seen any updates in years and is seeing some bit rot
<ScottL> additionally we are revisiting the purpose and scope of the website and most likely will be added additional functionality to is as well
<ScottL>  * update ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> the -controls applcations allows user to change some of the system settings to help them tune their machine for audio work
<ScottL> some of the functionality has been deprecated by changes in the kernel and firewire stack
<ScottL> additionally, some of the functionality has changed due to upstream changes in JACK
<ScottL> so we will be updating -controls for those reasons
<ScottL> but we would like to introduce additional functionalities as well
<ScottL> which should further help users with their work
<ScottL>  * documentation
<ScottL> this is a huge (and hugely importatant) under taking
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio has changed significantly over the years and the documentation hasn't quite kept up
<ScottL> our tentative plan is to overhaul the entire documentation system in help.ubuntu.com to reflect the current state of Ubuntu Studio and the changes within the kernel and other applications
<ScottL> it's a large, large job and we (possibly optimistally) expect it to take a year, especially given the size of the team and the other responsibilities
<ScottL> of course, if anyone is interested in helping the Ubuntu Studio team they are most welcomed to contact us
<ScottL> the developer mailing list can be found at:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<ScottL> if you need help as a user, you can find the user mailing list at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
<ScottL> as mentioned before, users can find help documentation at:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> our current website can be found at: http://ubuntustudio.org/
<ScottL> if anyone has suggestions or comments about what they would like in the new website or about a new applications they would like to see in Ubuntu Studio, please contact us at the developer mailing list and let us know
<ScottL> additionally, we have several IRC channels for support
<ScottL> users can join #ubuntustudio here on freenode.net for help with Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> anyone wanted to speak to the developers directly can join #ubuntustudio-devel
<ScottL> any questions at this time?
<ScottL> another common question that is asked pertains to getting new packages into Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> one thing that the Ubuntu Studio team doesn't actively do is package applications
<ScottL> this isn't a philosophical stance, it's more of a pragmatic, logistical issue
<ScottL> we simple don't have experience packagers active on the team
<ScottL> however, we do have a mechanism for effecting this
<ScottL> i believe that most of the new audio applications (and even updates) tend to come from the Debian Multimedia Team
<ScottL> they are a robust, experienced, and active group :)   for which i am very appreciative
<ScottL> these packages see their way into the Ubuntu repositories at the beginning of each Ubuntu release cycle
<ScottL> so if you want to see about getting a package into Ubuntu Studio, we still welcome your suggestions or nominations
<ScottL> as we have cross team communications and can pass the request onto the Debian Multimedia Team
<ScottL> there are some new and exciting LV2 plugins that i expect to see in Ocelot that are now in our repositories
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ScottL> another question that is posted with some frequency pertains to applications included in derivative distributions of Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> many times users explore other multimedia distributions that are derivatives of Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> and these distros include certain packages that are not in Ubuntu Studio and users ask why
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio can only ship packages that are hosting in the official archives (repositories)
<ScottL> the build system (buildd) will only include packages from these archives
<ScottL> if the package can not be included in the repositories, it can not ship with Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> and I should note that PPA's are not the official archives
<ScottL> even though someone built Linux Sampler in a PPA, it can not be shipped on an Ubuntu Studio image
<ScottL> if there is an application that users would like to see in Ubuntu Studio then we (meaning developers and users) bend our energies to getting it included in the repositories
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ScottL> I'm pretty much done, so if anyone doesn't have questions, i'll close with a reqeust
<ScottL> a request even
<ScottL> hi htcGuitarman and holstein  :)
<ScottL> please give us your suggestions on how to improve Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> we welcome all suggestions and comments
<ScottL> but please be aware there are limitations (e.g. licensing issues or logistics) to what we can accomplish
<ScottL> thank you
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Getting Started with gnucash - Instructors: Cheri703, hypatia
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<Cheri703> Hi, and welcome to "Getting Started with Gnucash"
<Cheri703> I need to apologize up front, originally this was planned to be a screencast, but there were MANY technical difficulties.
<Cheri703> Thanks to the wonderful AlanBell, there is a Live Desktop to go with this session
<Cheri703> You'll need to use either vncviewer or the Remote Desktop application
<Cheri703> AlanBell: is putting the directions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Cheri703> Gnucash is a Free, cross-platform, open-source accounting program
<Cheri703> It is available in many different languages, and it can handle both personal and business accounting.
<Cheri703> The first thing I will show you is how to access the Account hierarchy setup, if you've gone past it the first time.
<Cheri703> Many people open up gnucash and are presented with a blank grey scree.
<Cheri703> *screen.
<Cheri703> they don't know where to go from there, and they aren't sure what happened.
<Cheri703> On the first run of the software (after installation), a druid pops up, but it is VERY easy to click past it and get stuck.
<Cheri703> In order to access that druid again, you simply need to go to File > New > New File
<Cheri703> This will bring you to the Account Hierarchy Setup screen.
<Cheri703> We are having technical difficulties with the live desktop, so feel free to open up gnucash on your own computer and follow along :)
<Cheri703> Ah, for those confused by the terminology: a druid in ubuntu = wizard in windows
<Cheri703> In the Account Hierarchy screen, you will move forward through a few basic settings, and get to a page titled "Choose accounts to create"
<Cheri703> this gives you the option to automatically create accounts that will be populated in your file.
<Cheri703> The default gives MANY detailed categories, down to "hobbies" and "public Transportation"
<Cheri703> I do not get that detailed in how I track my money, so I choose to clear the selection, and go to the top of the list to "A Simple Checkbook"
<Cheri703> This creates one checkbook and the basic parent accounts for the Expense and Income categories
<Cheri703> The next page is "Setup New Accounts" from here you can add opening balances if you'd like to do so.
<Cheri703> After you finish the druid/wizard, you will reach your Accounts Page.
<Cheri703> This shows all of your accounts currently in your Gnucash file.
<Cheri703> On the accounts page, you can Create, Edit, Delete and Hide accounts.
<Cheri703> To create a new account, you'll just right click on the desired parent account (Assets if you're adding a bank account or something, Expenses if adding a bill category)
<Cheri703> and choose "New Account"
<Cheri703> In the window that pops up, you can name the account, choose account type, and on a second tab, add an opening balance.
<Cheri703> If you choose to edit an existing account, you'll notice that the "opening balance" tab no longer shows up. There IS a way to add an opening balance after the account has been created, I will get to that in a bit. That is something that has thrown off several people I know.
<Cheri703> If you choose to delete an account that has transactions in it, You'll get the option to move those transactions to another account, or delete them completely.
<Cheri703> There is the option (on the account edit screen) to Hide an account. I use this if I've had a prepaid gift card that I used up, I still want those transactions to stay in the system, but I don't want it cluttering up my Accounts page.
<Cheri703> The next area you'll encounter is the Transactions Register.
<Cheri703> This is where the majority of your interaction with Gnucash will happen.
<Cheri703> To open an account, you simply double click it on the accounts page. It will open in a new tab.
<Cheri703> Gnucash uses Double-Entry Accounting, this means that every transaction has a "from" entry and a "to" entry.
<Cheri703> If you want to create an opening balance for an account, you simply would enter it as a normal transaction, but in the "transfer" column, you'd choose "Equity:Opening Balances"
<Cheri703> The Transfer column is the "from" column.
<Cheri703> Well, From or To, depending on which direction money is going
<Cheri703> If a deposit, you're using the transfer column as "this money came FROM Income:person1"
<Cheri703> if a payment, then it is "this money is going out of this account TO Expenses:Bills"
<Cheri703> If you create a transaction, and later create another one with the same description, Gnucash will auto-fill the Transfer and deposit/withdrawl columns
<Cheri703> Obviously you can change it if necessary.
<Cheri703> To better understand the Double Entry accounting, you can split the transaction and view both halves. Generally Gnucash will only show you a portion of it, so it can be confusing for some people.
<Cheri703> To show transaction splits, you simply right click on the transaction and choose "split"
<Cheri703> There are MANY things you can do in the transaction register, and many ways to manipulate the data. Duplication, multiple entry splits (paying with multiple accounts on the same bill), as well as others.
<Cheri703> I will go more in depth on the screen cast.
<Cheri703> The next topic is Searching for Transactions.
<Cheri703> You can go to Edit > Find or press ctrl-F to open the search dialog.
<Cheri703> There are MANY options for searching. You can search by almost any field (Description, memo, check number, value, account, etc)
<Cheri703> You can also combine criteria to narrow your search.
<Cheri703> If you are searching by Value, you have the options to search for a value less than, less than or equal to, equal to, NOT equal to, greater than, or greater than or equal to the value you enter. It is VERY helpful for those times when you go "hmm, I know it was not quite $150, but I know it was definitely over $100" you can search that way and find your transaction very easily
<Cheri703> Search results open in a new tab.
<Cheri703> Any questions so far? I know I'm plowing through this stuff, and it is hard to follow without looking at it.
<Cheri703> Ok, moving on. Scheduled Transactions!
<Cheri703> Scheduled transactions are a WONDERFUL thing.
<Cheri703> However, one step of creating them is a bit tricky. (If I am in a hurry I tend to have to go back and switch it)
<Cheri703> To create scheduled transactions, you go to "Actions > Scheduled Transactions > Scheduled Transaction Editor"
<Cheri703> Once that tab opens, there is a button that looks like a building with a green plus sign on it. This is the "create new" button. You will have options on when to have the transaction appear on your account, and the option to create a reminder in advance.
<Cheri703> I choose to have mine created 60 days out, because I like to be able to have a general idea of what my finances look like for the next few months.
<Cheri703> You can also choose how many occurrences will happen: Forever, until a certain date, or a certain number of times - useful if making payments on something and you know you have a certain number of them left.
<Cheri703> You then can choose WHEN you want it to occur, daily/weekly/monthly, start date, and if you'd like it to be every week, ever 2 weeks, etc. Also if you'd like it to be on a certain day of the week, you can choose that as well.
<Cheri703> The tricky part of scheduled transactions comes on the Template Transaction section.
<Cheri703> This is where you create the transaction that will be applied to the account.
<Cheri703> At first glance it looks like a normal transaction editor, but where you would normally have "deposit" and "withdrawal" it says "Tot Funds In" and "Tot Funds Out"
<Cheri703> Once you have put in a description, and you are ready to put in the transfer amount, you'll notice that those labels CHANGE
<Cheri703> Tot Funds IN becomes "Debit Formula" and Tot Funds Out becomes "Credit Formula"
<Cheri703> This always throws me off, because in my mind "debit = out" and "credit = in"
<Cheri703> but it's not
<Cheri703> If you click back up to the description line, it will shift the labels back, so it is good to double check when entering.
<Cheri703> Or you'll end up like me and have to go through and swap all of the transactions that now show a withdrawal instead of a deposit.
<Cheri703> Once you've created scheduled transactions, they will not show up on the account until you go to "Actions > Scheduled Transactions > Since Last Run"
<Cheri703> This will process any that have been created since the software was last opened or you last ran the command.
<Cheri703> Any questions on scheduled transactions?
<Cheri703> Ok, Reports!
<Cheri703> Gnucash can generate many types of reports, some very useful, some that are interesting if you are trying to evaluate your spending habits.
<Cheri703> One thing to know when creating any of them is that you can filter your transactions, so you only see ones relevant to you at the time.
<Cheri703> You'll go to "View > Filter By..."
<Cheri703> and you can choose dates to show.
<Cheri703> This lets you create an account report for ONLY that month instead of the entire year.
<Cheri703> Well, that is pretty much all I have that I can go through without showing on the software.
<Cheri703> www.gnucash.org is a great resource, with a wiki, documentation, faq, and info about IRC and mailing lists
<Cheri703> there are also quite a few good tutorials available online.
<Cheri703> As I said before, If anyone is interested in viewing the screencast once it is available, please pm me with your email address, and I will get you a link as soon as I can.
<Cheri703> Forewarning: It covers much of this same information, but you'll be able to follow along better.
<Cheri703> Does anyone have any questions about what I covered or anything else about Gnucash?
<Cheri703> Ok, well. I will be around for the remainder of the time allotted for the session in case anyone thinks of questions.
<Cheri703> I will also ask that the link be appended to the logs at whatever time it becomes available (if that's possible), so in the future you can (hopefully) check there as well.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Cheri703> !q
<Cheri703> whoops
<Cheri703>  QUESTION for Cheri703: what does "Tot" mean/stand for in scheduled transactions?
<Cheri703> Total
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Audacity - Instructors: TBD
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> is Carla here?
<jcastro> I haven't been able to get a hold of her
<pleia2> ok, I sent her an email too, so we'll see
<samplezt> lÃ±
<Guest78344> hello, is anyone here?
<Guest78344> this is your esteamed author Carla
<IdleOne> pleia2: ^
<Guest78344> with great apologies for being late
<Guest78344> my horses escaped!!
<Guest78344> so we had us a little roundup
<pleia2> great!
<Guest78344> it's not as fun as it sounds
<Guest78344> ;)
<IdleOne> hehe
<nigelb> okay, you haz voice :)
<IdleOne> Guest78344: you may want to /nick lessguestlikenick
<Guest78344> I'm rusty with IRC, what great privileges does having voice confer?
<nigelb> Guest78344, could you also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nigelb> Guest78344, we will make the classroom moderated soon, it lets you speak when moderated.
<saimanoj> hi
<carla_s> all righty then, the official topic is intro to Audacity
<carla_s> I was thinking we could also do an intro to JACK, since that seems to be a hard one for a lot of users
<carla_s> maybe because it's confusing and not well-documented :)
<carla_s> should I be here or in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
<carla_s> ok then let's get started, and many apologies for lateness
<carla_s> Audacity is reputed to be "easy", and in a sense it is
<carla_s> it's a great application with a nice interface and a lot of functionality
<carla_s> the tricky part is audio terminology
<carla_s> like audio quality settings
<carla_s> WAV files are pretty much universal. WAV is a large lossless format
<carla_s> To give an idea of what high quality settings are, a CD-ready WAVE file is 16 bits depth/ 44mHz
<carla_s> sampling rate
<carla_s> bit depth and sample rate are fundamental terms
<carla_s> bit depth controls dynamic range and signal to noise ratio
<carla_s> sample rate is how many times per second the analog signal is sampled for digital conversion
<carla_s> hang on-- looking up precise terms :)
<carla_s> good thing I wrote a book
<carla_s> so 16/44 means each individual sample is given a 16-bit value
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<carla_s> 0-65,535
<carla_s> professionals record at 24- and 32-bit depths, and sometimes even 64
<carla_s> but that doesn't mean we need to go nuts-- more is not always better
<carla_s> CD quality recordings and even the low-budget onboard sound chips in modern PCs deliver higher fidelity than the studio gear of my youth (1960s and 70s)
<carla_s> the skill of the person making the recordings is much more important
<carla_s> and keep in mind how your recordings will be heard-- on good equipment in a quiet environment?
<carla_s> lo-fi portable devices?
<carla_s> vehicles?
<carla_s> Audacity, like many recording apps, records internally at 32-bit float
<carla_s> I make most of my master recordings at 24 bits depth/ 48 kHz
<carla_s> your desires may vary, of course, it's always what works for you
<carla_s> I don't hear a different between recordings made at 44 kHz or 48 kHz
<carla_s> but I do hear the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit
<carla_s> it's not necessarily a question of having great hearing, but more of having a trained ear and knowing what to listen for
<carla_s> having a high-quality master means you have a lot of headroom for editing and changes, and you can always export to lower quality levels
<carla_s> can't go higher
<carla_s> a common question is "how do I put my MP3s on CDs"
<carla_s> there are two types of CDs- Red Book audio-encoded for any  CD player, like in your vehicle or home hi-fi
<carla_s> and data CDs. You can put any audio file on a data CD-- WAV, FLAC, Ogg, MP3, and play it on your computer, because software media players support all formats
<carla_s> if you want your MP3s on a universal Red Book CD then they first need to be converted to 16/44 WAV
<carla_s> then written to CD as an audio project. not a data project
<carla_s> they're still lossy MP3 quality even after conversion to WAV
<carla_s> Audacity uses a special storage method for Audacity project files
<carla_s> it breaks every project up into a mass of little individual files, for speed
<carla_s> Audacity projects only play inside of Audacity. if you want studio masters to use in other audio programs you need to export them as WAV or FLAC
<carla_s> FLAC is nice because it's lossless compression, so you get WAV quality in a smaller file size
<carla_s> one difference is WAV supports 32-bit, while FLAC only goes up to 24-bit
<carla_s> muneeb asks about file size for screencasting
<carla_s> MP3s are good for this, even though to a lot of people's ears Ogg sounds better at low bit rates, and it's an open, unencumbered standard
<carla_s> though Ogb support is growing all the time
<carla_s> checking Audacity settings---
<carla_s> bitrate is bandwidth, not to be confused with bit depth
<carla_s> amount of data per second
<carla_s> (no, everyone cannot use the same measurements, that would be too convenient)
<carla_s> doing math...
<carla_s> one channel of 16/44.1 stereo has a bitrate of about 700k bits per second
<pleia2> carla_s: there are a couple of questions in -chat, would you like me to paste them here as they come up, or do you want to take questions at the end?
<carla_s> compare to 128k MP3
<pleia2> oh dear
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Audacity - Instructors: carla_s
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<carla_s> server burp?
<pleia2> bot burp :)
<carla_s> I'm reading them as I go, and trying to work in answers in a somewhat sane fashion :)
<pleia2> ok, great
<carla_s> 128k MP3 is very lo-fi, a holdover from the olden days of slow Internet streaming and small storage in portable audio players
<carla_s> to my own ears 192k sounds pretty good. 320k is as high as MP3 goes. it is billed as CD-quality
<carla_s> it isn't
<carla_s> Ogg measures quality levels differently
<carla_s> it uses a variable bitrate (which MP3 also supports) so it's hard to pin down a specific bitrate
<carla_s> Ogg rates quality levels from 0-10, with 10 the highest
<carla_s> Ogg supports multichannel surround, which MP3 doesn't
<carla_s> well there is a version of Mp3 that does, but it's not well-supported, and ti's proprietary
<carla_s> an Ogg setting of 2 is roughly equivalent to MP3 at 122k
<carla_s> 112k
<carla_s> make than an Ogg setting of 3, sorry
<carla_s> Ogg levels 0-5 use lossy channel coupling
<carla_s> this means redundancies between left and right stereo channels are combined for smaller bitrate and filesize
<carla_s> you might notice a loss of stereo spatial imaging
<carla_s> when I make Ogg files I usually use 6. it sounds good and I don't hear a lot of difference at higher settings
<carla_s> of course my ears are getting old, which is why I always say "do what pleases you" :)
<carla_s> MP3 also supports variable bitrates. the advantage over a fixed bitrate is fewer bits are used in passages that don't need a lot of bits, and more bits in the sections that need them
<carla_s> Audacity lets you select ranges, like the Standard variable setting of 170-210k
<carla_s> if everyone is still awake, let's talk about 32-bit float, because it is a source of much confusion
<carla_s> 16, 24, and 32-bit depths are integer values
<carla_s> 32-bit float is a floating point value
<carla_s> I have forgotten the math behind this, so here is the laypeople explanation
<carla_s> 32-bit float is a 24-bit mantissa plus an 8-bit exponent
<carla_s> on a practical level this means two important things:
<carla_s> greater precision and very low noise floor
<carla_s> and you cannot play 32-bit float files anywhere but inside digital audio applications that support them
<carla_s> for most playback devices you need 8, 16- or 24-bit integer (also called linear)
<carla_s> when you are planning how to make your backups, plan on lots of hard drive storage
<carla_s> Audacity projects can be a bit fragile, and if Audacity's auto-recovery does not work then your project is lost
<carla_s> so I save both projects, and WAV masters
<carla_s> belt-and-suspenders to be sure
<carla_s> Audacity projects save information that can't be saved in WAV or FLAC
<carla_s> like track labels and other metadata
<carla_s> and they load a lot faster than WAVs or FLAC
<carla_s> there is a question, is the in 32-bit float, is the exponent signed?
<carla_s> I do not know
<carla_s> there, a definitive answer!
<carla_s> Audacity supports making multi-channel surround, like 5.1 and 7.1
<carla_s> you can export up to 32 channels
<carla_s> and if you have a playback device that supports 32 channels you win
<carla_s> but Audacity does not help you with mapping the channels correctly
<carla_s> you want to match them to your outputs: front surround, center, etc
<carla_s> the mappings vary with different audio formats, so I included some tables in my book for WAV, FLAC, and others I forget now
<carla_s> this is why I write howtos-- because I forget
<carla_s> you don't need to spend a mint on hardware
<carla_s> because as I said earlier, even inexpensive audio devices are techically superior to even studio equipment of yesteryear
<carla_s> for two-channel stereo recordings there is a vast wealth of great devices to choose from that don't break the bank
<carla_s> there are all kinds of USB audio interfaces for under a couple hundred dollars that are very good and easy to use
<carla_s> as long as they are USB class-compliant you don't have to worry about drivers
<carla_s> I will never understand why vendors would make USB devices dependent on special drivers. a lot of extra work for no good reason
<carla_s> USB interfaces are portable, and you don't have to worry about picking up internal noise
<carla_s> Behringer has a line of multi-channel USB mixers that run from around $100 to about $600
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<carla_s> the most important component in your audio chain the is analog to digital/digital to analog converter
<carla_s> there are cheapos that sound bad. they introduce noise and distortion
<carla_s> you should be able to turn the volume way up before you hear any hum or hiss
<carla_s> A question about FLAC
<carla_s> I like FLAC
<carla_s> when you buy online music you often have a FLAC option. that is high quality in about one-third smaller size than WAV
<carla_s> FLAC support is still spotty, but if you're playing them on a computer-y device you're covered, like a home media server
<carla_s> WAV supports up to 32-bit, FLAC mxes out at 24
<carla_s> which is still plenty high quality
<carla_s> there are some other differences---
<carla_s> it is an open unencumbered format
<carla_s> it has several compression levels, from 0 to 8
<carla_s> these do not affect quality, just file size
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<carla_s> it supports fewer channels than WAV
<carla_s> drat, can't find it
<carla_s> any questions? that was a rather random whirlwind tour
<carla_s> audacity is a great WAV editor, and great for making live recordings
<carla_s> the real power of audio editing is giving every voice and instrument its own track
<carla_s> Audacity supports unlimited tracks, until your computer keels over or your recording interface maxes out
<carla_s> it is CPU-intensive, and even though Audacity is not written to take advantage of multiple cores it runs a lot better on multicore machines
<carla_s> those extra cores take care of JACK and any other software you're running
<carla_s> thanks everyone for being here, congratulations and thanks to the Ubuntu team for putting on Open Week!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-07
<qli> what's going on here
<jmarsden> qli: Nothing.  There is no class now.  See http://is.gd/8rtIi for the class schedule
<qli> noted with thanks.
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-30
 * txomon|home is away: Estoy ocupado
<Guest1257> d
<Guest1257> g
<Guest1257> y
<Guest1257> v
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-01
<khmerog> hi
<khmerog> whats this room all about?
<bmoez> #join ubuntu-tn
<DJones> bmoez: Its /join rather than #join (in case you've not got there yet)
<Scrivener> Oh, so we're not all muted.
<bmoez> ok, sorry :)
<DJones> Scrivener: Not yet, I expect the channel will be muted once open week starts with just the people involved having voice, with questions/chat coming in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Scrivener> Right. I thought this channel would already be muted from the start. Been in here all morning. I forget what time it all starts...
<Scrivener> I'm going to be in the air tomorrow for a good 5 hours.
<Scrivener> Too bad that open week starts on my vacation.
<Scrivener> I guess I'll be reading about it later.
<pleia2> the Ask Mark session is in about 2 hours
<Scrivener> Oh really? Ohhh you're right!
<Scrivener> That's today.
<Scrivener> Conveniently it starts when I get off work. ;) I'll be a little busy, but I'll see some when I get home. How long would it go?
<Scrivener> Anyone know?
<pleia2> 1 hour
<Scrivener> Ah, meh :-/
<janek> am i still banned?
<janek> i guess no ;p
<sabdfl> hello all
<DJones> Evening sabdfl
<nava> Hello Mark
<sabdfl> sorry to be late
<sabdfl> am all set here, fire away!
<DJones> I wasn't expecting you until 10pm
<pleia2> actually, you're an hour early
<sabdfl> doh
<sabdfl> fire away anyhow! just kidding
<DJones> Heh, I was thinking 9pm last night until I double checked
<sabdfl> apparently clan was asked about 1pm PDT
<sabdfl> no worries
<sabdfl> see you on the hour!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<sabdfl> hello all
<sabdfl> glad to be here, congrats to everyone on 12.04 LTS!
<DJones> Evening sabdfl
<sabdfl> everyone i meet is delighted with it
<DJones> Before we start, can I suggest a few tips to keep the session moving:
<DJones> 1) Please ask your question with "QUESTION" at the start of the line in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll copy them over into this channel for sabdfl to answer
<DJones> 2) I'll skip questions about support that would be better asked in #ubuntu, or are easily googleable so that good questions don't get missed
<DJones> OK, sabdfl, if you'd like to introduce yourself and I'll start when you're ready
<sabdfl> hi all, i'm the founder of both Ubuntu and Canonical, chair the CC and lead product design for Canonical
<sabdfl> let's go!
<DJones> QUESTION: Where is the Dash search going? Will the Dash find exif, ID3 tags in the future?
<sabdfl> good ideas, there!
<sabdfl> Dash wants to read your mind, as does the HUD
<sabdfl> so the answer is "whatever fits your brain best", and these will be fun conversations at UDS next week
<sabdfl> i don't have a fixed, detailed, secret roadmap for that
<sabdfl> the framework enables you to plug in any sort of result set you like
<sabdfl> so, it's something to invite collaboration and inspire innovation
<sabdfl> lenses and scopes are a lot of fun to work with
<sabdfl> there are iirc over 100 already, more welcome!
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: Is there any OEM interest in 12.04?
<sabdfl> 12.04 will ship on PC's / laptops from all the major brands, in different parts of the world
<sabdfl> so, yes :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones>  QUESTION: will we found a book center and game center in next version (that will make software-center more light as it will not import games and books, with the ablety to acces to any one from other) and for game center, it will import ~games from others services like Steam, ~Desuma, Djl
<sabdfl> those are also good ideas, best place to discuss them is UDS
<sabdfl> next?
<DJones> QUESTION: It was noted that in order for the Heads-Up Display to completely replace the current application menu system, the tools all need to be discoverable (not just searchable), as they are in the traditional menus. Does the Ubuntu team have any ideas concerning what solutions to this obstacle could look like?
<sabdfl> no concrete ideas, beyond keeping traditional menus around as long as we need them for that purpose
<sabdfl> it's a fun topic to brainstorm around, and an area for creativity
<sabdfl> since we have all the data in the global menu now, it should be possible for people to experiment with lightweight python programs
<sabdfl> to mock up ideas or suggestions
<sabdfl> unity-design would be a good place to do that
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Will be there more pushing into improving stack and dev tools in Ubuntu Q? What is your dream about Ubuntu? Thanks
<sabdfl> yes, we care a lot about developers, particularly developers of cloud applications
<sabdfl> Ubuntu is already a great environment for building cloud apps
<sabdfl> but we can make it even better and will discuss that at UDS
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Unity has got many positive reviews in Precise due to its stability focus. Wouldn't it be best if the Unity team focussed another cycle for stability and fixing Ubuntu backlog ideas first?
<sabdfl> the Unity team has a lot of QA support now, so we will add quality in each cycle
<sabdfl> we have a tough decision ahead about how we merge -2D and -3D
<sabdfl> which will result in us having to re-do some work, either way
<sabdfl> but in general it is forward and continuous improvement every day
<sabdfl> there is a great community vibe around the project
<sabdfl> and it seems people who were even very sceptical about unity are willing to give it another shot
<sabdfl> i think the design vision is becoming clearer, and the team worked incredibly hard to address bugs and shortcomings
<sabdfl> and i'm very grateful for their efforts, and the contributions we've received from all over the world
<sabdfl> upstreams who are taking advantage of unity API's to give their users the best experience on Ubuntu are helping too
<sabdfl> i think the community is settling down and working constructively
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: Will Ubuntu have a 'game mode' in future that allows game developers to disables all unnecessary things easily, to provide maximum system resources for the game?
<sabdfl> it's hard to say "no", because it's software and anything is possible
<sabdfl> we've seen a lot of interest in Ubuntu for game developers and gamers
<sabdfl> but that particular capability hasn't been widely discussed afaik
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: you demonstrated MAAS at the OpenStack Conference the other week. Great tool - but where can I get that great graphical representation that accompanied it?
<sabdfl> It's called "gource", and you'll find it on the interwebs :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: may making offical site for users to help them publish there first 30 days experience with 12.04 and when they found problems (like obliged to use commande line,...)will be very helpful to make ubuntu more user freindly
<sabdfl> cool idea - it's a variant of user testing, but focused on the "first 30 days" rather than "first hour"
<sabdfl> i like it :)
<sabdfl> doesn't have to be official, though
<sabdfl> setting that up would be a lovely contribution
<sabdfl> carefully writing up the results would really help discussions on unity-design
<sabdfl> rather than having lots of "I want X" mails
<sabdfl> useful to have "we observed this across 3 of 5 users after 30 days"
<sabdfl> data is better than guessing :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: What is the status of Wayland? Do you think that the next LTS in 2014 will use Wayland?
<sabdfl> I think wayland will be exactly 2 years more mature for the next LTS
<sabdfl> I think X apps will be supported well beyond that
<sabdfl> and we'll make the pieces fit together smoothly along the way
<sabdfl> exactly where that line will fall I can't say
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: how can we get accessibility designed in to the stuff Canonical produces from the start rather than tacked on afterwards?
<sabdfl> by joining the design process, for a start
<sabdfl> much of that comes from choice of tools
<sabdfl> and there isn't always an answer that checks every single box
<sabdfl> but i don't believe we've ever blocked work on that regard - it's one of the things we value
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: how do you believe gnome and ubuntu path's will cross? Or will they diverge?
<sabdfl> ubuntu spans the whole open source ecosystem
<sabdfl> i think it's convenient for Ubuntu's competitors to talk about a split between Ubuntu and GNOME
<sabdfl> but I know lots of GNOME developers who don't see things that way at all
<sabdfl> they write apps because they want them to be used, and Ubuntu is an amazing conduit for their work to millions of users
<sabdfl> we felt blocked by Red Hat on specific parts they control
<sabdfl> but we collaborate very well with lots of other GNOME developers
<sabdfl> and lots of developers take care to make sure their stuff delivers an excellent experience everywhere
<sabdfl> it's not hard
<sabdfl> so i don't think it's worth amplifying the idea that there's a big split
<sabdfl> i'm very happy to help GNOME developers reach a huge audience
<sabdfl> i'm not here to play political games or score points
<sabdfl> this is not academic, this is about people and helping them benefit from free software
<sabdfl> so, choose which meme you want to spread: the world is a divided place, or the world is a place where you can get things done if you are open to collaboration
<sabdfl> the stories people tell, have more to say about those people, than about the people they are talking about ;)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: In your Quantal Quetzal announcement you touched upon visual changes - will 12.10 finally see a new icon theme?
<sabdfl> we've wanted to do a new icon theme for years!
<sabdfl> it's not hard to start drawing
<sabdfl> but yet another icon theme, without a proper analysis of the framework that we use icons in, would not make the world much better
<sabdfl> so, we've pulled together some experts, both artists and interface gurus, to look at the use of icons across the desktop
<sabdfl> and we'll start with proper analysis
<sabdfl> the art part will come later :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: wrt merging Unity 2D and 3D, why wasn't there work to make QML work with Compiz instead of developing Nux? Also, do you see any particular advantage to developing Unity for such old systems that Compiz can't run on them in some configuration? This was an issue 10 years ago, but I don't see it as beneficial today, especially with Xubuntu and Lubuntu around for low end hardware already.
<sabdfl> this is a super-complicated topic
<sabdfl> with lots of twisty dependencies and uncertainties
<sabdfl> remember, all of these parts are changing fast
<sabdfl> so, it's appropriate to review, consider, and decide on a path forward
<sabdfl> we have done very well with nux, unity is very highly regarded, in part because we were able to talk to the hardware directly
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Considering Flash not being supported by Adobe for linux, would canonical take the role of supporting and maintaining flash for firefox which is the default browser? Or would you rather switch to Google Chrome which supports it officially under Linux?
<sabdfl> not clear, sounds like a topic for UDS :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: How can Canonical and the Ubuntu community best foster professional, best-in-class applications on Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> we could start by creating a way for developers to deliver their apps to users smoothly
<sabdfl> like software centre. check.
<sabdfl> then we could start documenting the tools and processes that support developers.
<sabdfl> like developer.ubuntu.com. check.
<sabdfl> and we could also develop a vision for personal computing beyond the desktop.
<sabdfl> like unity - check
<sabdfl> so, i think we're doing pretty well. i know more developers target ubuntu because of the work that has been done
<sabdfl> if you care about this, there are lots of places to help!
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: Based on a number of recent job postings by Canonical, including one looking for a designer to create an Ubuntu 'HIG', is there an appetite/plan to create a set of desktop apps in-house?
<sabdfl> a HIG that expresses how an app should "feel native" is the goal of that posting
<sabdfl> and excellent applications for the position are most welcome :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: any news about ubuntu tablet and mobile,...? and is there any work with other teams like meego-team, ...?
<sabdfl> no news, as for meego, there are excellent folk who contributed there, i don't know what the current situation is there but we're always open to discussion
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: If a part of the community want to start a new flavor with a pure GNOME Shell experience, what steps should it take to become an officially recognised flavor?
<sabdfl> same as for Lubuntu or Xubuntu or Kubuntu, really
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Does canonical any plan for a SDK for mobile & tablet version ? also what language you will use for write unity for them ?
<sabdfl> no news on the tablet and mobile front today
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones>  QUESTION: are there any plans to make the U1MS more useful in the future (currently everybody I talk to who tried it couldn't find most of the music they were looking for, so they ditched it and more or less decided never to look at it again--this is probably related to there being no local store for the countries involved)
<sabdfl> music licensing around the world is highly fragmented
<sabdfl> nothing we can do about that
<sabdfl> in countries where 7digital are well covered, the service is excellent
<sabdfl> and it will expand over time
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: What happened to the sound theme  which was supposed to land in Ubuntu 12.04 (atleast a part of it)?
<sabdfl> it wasn
<sabdfl> 't perfect yet
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Any plans to look at Marlin instead of Nautilus for file management? Nautilus is really ugly with the default Ubuntu theme right now
<sabdfl> sounds like a UDS question! i like the elementary team a lot, so it's certainly possible we could adopt their stuff
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Are there any plans to create a consistent Unity experience? Right now we have too many toolkits, visual styles, etc. in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> patches welcome! we like the dual-layer approach, with overlays in one style, and apps in another
<sabdfl> if there are inconsistencies, please file design bugs for consideration
<sabdfl> and if we agree, patches welcome
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: How long does it take you to come up with a code-name for Ubuntu releases? What is your inspiration?
<sabdfl> it takes AGES
<sabdfl> i end up reading the dictionary
<sabdfl> P was excruciating
<sabdfl> but I hope you like the result
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Jono recently mentioned that Canonical has been working with Valve to deliver a great Steam gaming experience on Ubuntu, are you also working Nvidia/Ati to improve the drivers?
<sabdfl> we do work with both nvidia and ati, yes, but i can't comment on other work with a specific vendor or partner
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: will we be able to donload ubuntu with our lang (like -fr, -ar, -it,...) from the official site (ubuntu.com)  like option ?
<sabdfl> that's a very good idea, and i'd like to see something like that, but i don't have a specific plan in motion to achieve that
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Has Canonical made any headway on getting interested parties to partner with for the purpose of delivering a great Ubuntu for Android experience on their mobile devices?
<sabdfl> difficult to say, there is a lot of work still to do there. but that's a very fun project, yes, and i think we will do more with it
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: can we have an update on the bees, ducks and other animals you keep?
<sabdfl> not from me - i've been in California for two weeks!
<sabdfl> but I think the farm is still happy
<sabdfl> i don't think the animals are revolting :)
<sabdfl> it's very relaxing living in the countryside
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Will Canonical be doing more with Quickly? It is a great idea, but already it is lagging behind the GObject Introspection work
<sabdfl> Quickly is superb stuff - I would imagine it's very easy to use Quickly with GIR, don't see those as competing in any way
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: how is OEM support coming along. Will we see more preloaded ubuntu on hardware?
<sabdfl> the number of PC's / laptops with Ubuntu does continue to grow, yes
<sabdfl> and the number of vendors that are doing it also continues to grow
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Any news from Ubuntu TV and Ubuntu for android ? will we see a device with them soon ?
<sabdfl> mayyyyybe ;)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Why is "Gnome-shell" or "Gnome Classic" no standard for installation --> 12.04?
<sabdfl> based on user testing, Unity provides a much better desktop shell experience for our users
<sabdfl> individuals can get whatever they want from the archives
<sabdfl> but we have always made tough choices about what works smoothest, best
<sabdfl> we *always* get criticised for that. we get criticized for using Firefox not Epiphany, or Rhythmbox not banshee, or... you name it
<sabdfl> but the fact that we make those tough decisions, with the criterion being "what works best out of the box for users", is part of what makes Ubuntu important in the open source ecosystem
<sabdfl> that's how we've made open source useful for millions of other people
<sabdfl> if you are a super-technologist then there is value in learning all about linux from every angle
<sabdfl> try arch. try gentoo. try fedora. try debian. try suse.
<sabdfl> they are all good
<sabdfl> it's not very useful to turn the differences into religious debate
<sabdfl> our focus in ubuntu has ALWAYS been to (a) deliver a tight, clean package of goodness in the default install, and (b) to have an open archive with good governance where different communities could collaborate
<sabdfl> i think we have done that very well, we have an amazing community and governance
<sabdfl> and canonical is very proud to support and enable that
<sabdfl> if you want a change, you need to justify it on user experience grounds, not ideological ones
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: || Ubuntu sucess depends a lot of the apps are available on it. Have Ubuntu any plans to make available native apps like Evernote, etc?
<sabdfl> that's up to the ISV!
<sabdfl> we aim to make free software widely used
<sabdfl> and our goal is to be wonderful for users
<sabdfl> if we get lots of users, we will get more isv's
<sabdfl> so the best thing we can all do is encourage and support friends, families and businesses to use it
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Does canonical talking to netflix for ubuntu tv ? Or has other plan for replace another service like it ?
<sabdfl> netflix is EVERYWHERE so i think it would be a natural conversation to have, but i'm not aware of the status one way or another, and besides, today is not the day for announcements :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: What do you think about Windows 8? Have you tried it? Do you think that it is a big chance for Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> i admire some of the gutsy choices microsoft are making
<sabdfl> it's difficult for them, and they are doing some things very well
<sabdfl> credit where it is due
<sabdfl> we are not here because we hate anybody else
<sabdfl> we're here because we have a vision of a future only we can create
<sabdfl> nobody else is trying to create that - not Microsoft(!), not Google, not Red Hat, not Debian, not Arch
<sabdfl> so, it's up to us to build that future: free, supportable, beautiful
<sabdfl> and your help is much appreciated
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> Question: Ubuntu One would be much more atractive if it was more likely Owncloud. Is there any plans to work with them? Our make a similar ofert?
<sabdfl> not sure - best thing would be to raise it at UDS!
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: Referring to this bug about Microsoft market share, assigned to you in Ubuntu: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 With the number of other devices in the marketplace doing what desktop pc's did in 2004, should this still be a critical bug?
<sabdfl> interesting question
<sabdfl> i think the world is a much more balanced place now
<sabdfl> with IOS and Android
<sabdfl> so, perhaps we can consider that one fixed
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> but i think we still have lots to prove with Ubuntu on the desktop and other form factors
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: Now that the maintainer of Upstart has left Canonical, what makes you certain that it is the right decision to keep it above systemd? Is Scott still working on Upstart with Google - for Android or ChromeOS for instance
<sabdfl> I *think* Scott still maintains an interest there, though I think he is also working on other things.
<sabdfl> he worked on lots of things at Canonical, too ;)
<sabdfl> there is a very active lead maintainer for Upstart
<sabdfl> and besides, the bulk of the work to take full advantage of it comes from the individual packages that use it
<sabdfl> the beauty of Upstart is it's modern, UNIX-like design: it does one thing, does it very well
<sabdfl> and the most important thing for me is the commitment of that team to quality first
<sabdfl> nobody thinks they write bad code
<sabdfl> but quality comes from following specific practices, like automated testing
<sabdfl> we lead this - we are leading a lot of agile quality practices and making tools available to upstreams to embrace them
<sabdfl> via launchpad, for example
<sabdfl> so yes, I support the decision to build on Upstart, in Debian and Ubuntu
<sabdfl> i think diversity is great, and if RHEL wants to switch init *again*, that's fine too
<sabdfl> we will review after 14.04 LTS
<sabdfl> but i think the decision to choose Upstart is the right one and think it will give very good results in Ubuntu and Debian
<sabdfl> next
<DJones> QUESTION: How close is Unity to your initial vision in 12.04? 2/3 complete? 3/4 complete?
<sabdfl> 2/3 is pretty close, for the desktop, yes
<sabdfl> of course, it's a moving target :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones>  QUESTION: Is Debian/Ubuntu following Fedora 17 rearrangement of the Unified Filesystem, moving /bin, /sbin, /lib & /lib64 from /root to /usr/ (sounds promising for Cloud & features)
<sabdfl> i really don't mind either way
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> it's something that we would want to agree with Debian
<sabdfl> i don't think it will change the world either way
<sabdfl> which suggests it needs to deliver a LOT of benefits to be worth doing
<sabdfl> but... blah.... we'll just work something out with Debian
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: what do you think about the number of closed source app (and payed)growed on ubuntu ? and will a numbers ofusers (like 5) able to use the some payed app (i mean like in win8)?#
<sabdfl> hmmm.... i think Windows will have a bigger proprietary app ecosystem than Ubuntu, sure
<sabdfl> but, i don't think that stops us from making an amazing platform for people to do amazing things with
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: i think the route to more great ubuntu hardware, especially hardware specifically designed for ubuntu, is always finding places where this is more profitable for OEMs than other options. so my thought is open industrial design could be a way to explore this problem space more quickly and boldly. what do you think about this? could you see this being something OEMs would jump on?
<sabdfl> i think our partner OEM's know much more about that than we do. we work very closely with them and are happy to support them, we don't want to get into the hardware business
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> QUESTION: One are where I find that Linux (generally) falls behind, is financial apps (accounts etc)
<sabdfl> that's an interesting segment
<sabdfl> it's the one of the few which is highly fragmented by geography
<sabdfl> in other words
<sabdfl> in most countries, Photoshop is the top photo editing app
<sabdfl> but in every country, there is a different top accounting app
<sabdfl> because local rules / laws / conventions are highly divergent
<sabdfl> i think this will all move to the cloud, anyhow :)
<sabdfl> next!
<DJones> I thinks thats just out of questions queued
<sabdfl> phew!
<sabdfl> thank you all
<sabdfl> good timing, too :)
<pleia2> thanks sabdfl
<DJones> Thanks to everyone for providing questions for the session, and thanks to sabdfl for taking the time to be here and answer them
<sabdfl> thanks for the questions, and thank you for your support
<pleia2> and thank for handling questions, DJones!
<sabdfl> please join me in saying thanks to the organisers of OpenWeek!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<nava> Thanks
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<DJones> Phew...
<bmoez> DJones: when will be UDS?
<DJones> UDS is next week (I think)
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-02
<mikeit> Ciao
<ZetaRC12> mate 1.0 on mint12, nrrd a battery indicator
<ZetaRC12> need*
<Mkays|> !mint | zetarc12
<ubot2> zetarc12: Linux Mint is not a supported derivative of Ubuntu. Please seek support in #linuxmint-help on irc.spotchat.org
<ZetaRC12> well mint is like 95% ubuntu, every ubuntu guide seems to work perfectly with it
<khmerog> hi
<khmerog> whats everyone doing?
<ZetaRC12> khmerog not much, trying to prep this netbook with linux, only has xp, acer didn't include a disc and refuses to send one for thess then $20 even though xp is deadin a little over a year
<ZetaRC12> less*
<khmerog> sorry
<khmerog> i thought this chat room is a class room and will teach us about ubuntu
<khmerog> like teach us basics and tricks and tweaks
<khmerog> zetarc12 do u have the windows XP key? the code?
<ZetaRC12> khmerog yeah, but it didn't work with the .iso I had ripped off a newegg bought copy of xp sp3
<khmerog> i had to download 3 differnt version of XP in order to get my XP key to work
<khmerog> remeber there is XP oem, XP oem SP 3, and windows XP retail, retail SP3, etc.
<khmerog> but what are the specs of your notebook? CPU and ram please
<Mkays|> Zetarc12, but it's still different. And mate isn't available in official Ubuntu repositories
<ZetaRC12> which is a shame as the desktops based on gnome 3 are all terrible and LXDE and XFCE are lacking
<khmerog> i have lubuntu right now on my pentium 4 laptop...its very boring and windows like but it is very responsive compared to XP
<khmerog> i think it is running LXDE
<cyphermox> everyone ready? I guess my time is up for preparing this session ;)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Configuring your network using NetworkManager - Instructors: cyphermox
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<cyphermox> Hi, I'm Mathieu Trudel, Ubuntu Developer, employed by Canonical and the usual suspect for breaking your network :) In all seriousness though, I'm the one usually responsible for NetworkManager -- I say "usually", because we *do* encourage users to contribute. It's not as scary as you may think; but you can ask me about the details later :)
<cyphermox> I'll run this session in two parts: the first I'll give a few tricks to make NetworkManager really do what you want it to do; then I'll answer any questions.
<cyphermox> For the second part, I'll go into some small debugging tips if things don't go as planned, so that you can understand what's going on and hopefully get online to be able to report a bug, if necessary
<cyphermox> Then I'll obviously answer any other questions :)
<cyphermox> One of the key things we did in 12.04 was to make it as simple as possible to deal with DNS (what translates between URL names and IP addresses used on the Internet); to do this we enabled dnsmasq (a local nameserver) by default; I'll show you how to debug issues related to this shortly.
<cyphermox> The jist of it is: that's supposed to help you and make your life easier, just working properly out of the box for almost everyone, but we understand that some use cases don't work well with it, so I'll show you how to disable it... just before getting into the debugging part.
<cyphermox> But first, let's talk about routing. Routing is basically what decides how traffic goes from your computer and any interfaces it has to other systems on the Internet, choosing what interface to use and what other systems to talk to. (I'm simplifying, but you get the idea)
<cyphermox> Routing is special in that NetworkManager uses a particular rule to choose the most useful connection -- basically, Wired is always preferred, followed by Wireless, then by 3G and other connections. To circumvent this if you want to be connected to a wired network to... debug your wireless router, for instance, and on wireless at the same time, you can toggle the "Use this connection only for the resources on its
<cyphermox> network" checkbox.
<cyphermox> To do this, click the Network indicator (nm-applet), then Edit Connections...  http://imgur.com/ld2cq
<cyphermox> ^^ the link above is a screenshot I took from my system.
<cyphermox> (also, feel free to jump in in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and ping me if I'm going too fast)
<cyphermox> You'll see the list of all your connections. Those also match with files in /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections as long as they are set "Available to all users", which is a checkbox in the next screen (the one that shows up when you hit Edit in the connection editor). http://imgur.com/6bcGg
<cyphermox> Usually, you won't have to add new networks via the editor, because most cases are already covered by clicking on a wireless network, which will automatically create the right type of connection as long as it gets properly detected by NM.
<cyphermox> Should you need to, though, for specific Wired settings, or for a new Wireless network that is invisible, you can use Add and enter the settings. For wireless, all you really need is a name for the connection, and to fill in the SSID below (and then any security settings under the Wireless Security tab).
<cyphermox> If you're filling in a connection and you can't click the "Save" button, it just means that NM is still expecting you to enter data, or that the data is not entered correctly (it can't make sense of it, like using commas instead of periods in IP addresses)
<cyphermox> To get back to routing, you'll see under the IPv4 (and IPv6!!) tab, a button labelled "Routes". If you click on it, a new dialog will appear and allow you to toggle that "Use this connection....", which will make that connection not be used as the "default" for accessing the Internet. See http://imgur.com/zvshy
<cyphermox> "Use this connection only for the resources on its network" is basically doing exactly what it means: that connection will not become the default route (the one used for Internet access, basically), but you should still be able to connect to any other machines connected to the same network
<cyphermox> Questions so far?
<cyphermox> (make sure you drop by in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, which is where I'll be able to see them)
<cyphermox> Let's continue :)
<cyphermox> Now, let's talk about configuration files in NetworkManager:
<cyphermox> There are two basic types of configuration files for NetworkManager, the global configuration which handles the internal NM stuff; and per-connection configurations which describe the settings you've selected. So if you want to move connections from one computer to the other (and basically, back stuff up) you can now do this easily by copying the contents of /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections!
<cyphermox> The global configuration is largely explained in the manual page NetworkManager.conf(5); it has the details about plugins to use (we use ifupdown and keyfile: ifupdown understands the /etc/network/interfaces configuration file from ifupdown (something we inherit from Debian), and keyfile reads the per-connection configs.
<cyphermox> It also has a line "dns=dnsmasq"; this is what enables the use of dnsmasq as a local nameserver; it's also the line you want to remove or comment out if you find that this is being a problem -- but I strongly encourage you to seek help if you think it's being an issue!
<cyphermox> A good place to ask for this is #ubuntu; or #ubuntu-bugs if you're about to file a bug about it
<cyphermox> If this kind of thing doesn't work, we definitely want to know about how you use NetworkManager, so that we can provide you with a solution (or fix a bug!)
<cyphermox> The usual NetworkManager.conf file should look like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/
<cyphermox> ah, oops
<cyphermox> http://paste.ubuntu.com/962450/
<cyphermox> ^^ in the above, the other think I didn't mention yet is that weird "managed=false" line
<cyphermox> This is another special trick that deals with /etc/network/interfaces, the way that is used in Debian, and on servers, to configure network connections
<cyphermox> What it means is: if managed is "false"; NM will simply ignore any device configured in /etc/network/interfaces, and assume they are *online*
<cyphermox> If it's set to "true", the same applies, but NM will also try to make it possible to enable and disable that connection from the applet!
<cyphermox> It's useful if you're trying to do special configurations that use both NM and ifupdown -- but that's outside of the scope of this session; just ask me at the end if you're more curious about details related to this.
<cyphermox> Now, let's look at a standard per-connection configuration file
<cyphermox> Those are under /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections -- they require root to be read, and may contain passwords; so I encourage you not to share them unless absolutely necessary (and after removing the password)
<cyphermox> http://paste.ubuntu.com/962453/
<cyphermox> ^^ this is a free wifi connection I use in Montreal, a small cafe with small businesses and LUG meetings :)
<cyphermox> As you can see, the top part is just the name of the connection and matches the name of the file
<cyphermox> it's followed by some magic to make sure all connections are unique, and to clarify the type of device it's for
<cyphermox> Since there's a UUID involved, I encourage you not to try to write them yourselves; but if you must, the UUID can be generated by the 'uuidgen -r' command.
<cyphermox> In the 802-11-wireless section, the name of the wireless (ssid=) is all that's really required, but the other fields further clarify other details, such as the mac address of the accesspoint
<cyphermox> Then, as you can see, IPv6 and IPv4 are set to "auto", which has been the default since 11.10; and means to get IP addresses via DHCP or autoconfiguration -- that normally works well, but if you had configured it differently, it would also be written there
<cyphermox> If you want to configure a connection to use static addresses, scroll back up above to the part where I showed the "Available to all users" checkbox, and you can change the settings in the IPv4 (or IPv6) tabs to set the static address, after switching the "Method" dropdown at the top to "Manual"
<cyphermox> I have more time for questions now, before I jump in to debugging tips -- I'm not getting too deep in configuration specifics, because I think it's pretty obvious in the dialogs, but if not, feel free to ask :)
<cyphermox> No questions?
 * cyphermox prepares links for debugging tips
<cyphermox> So, one of the things I fixed some time ago was to make the wiki page for Debugging NetworkManager clearer (I hope), and useful both for developers and users, also making it simpler to get all the information for a bug report (which means you can also quickly get all the information to figure things out yourself, if you know a few tricks about wifi)
<cyphermox> That page is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingNetworkManager
<cyphermox> in "Understanding your bug and getting more information", keys things are two links: matching error and reason codes to what they mean!
<cyphermox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingNetworkManager/ReasonCodes is a page I generate straight from the NetworkManager source code; and explains the various error messages and reasons you may see in logs.
<cyphermox> Everything that NM sees and thinks is of interest ends up in /var/log/syslog; there's lots of information there, and that wiki link above helps make sense of it
<cyphermox> This may help you figure out what is going wrong, and in some cases avoid opening bugs when it may be details to discuss with your network's administrator (assuming it's an issue with your office's wifi), or an indication of a configuration that may be just about to fail
<cyphermox> The second link is a little more scary: http://hostap.epitest.fi/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=hostap.git;a=blob;f=src/common/ieee802_11_defs.h
<cyphermox> I'm pointing it out because it does come up every once in a while in bug reports, and in questions: it contains the description of the reason codes from wpasupplicant
<cyphermox> Wpasupplicant is what NM uses to establish encrypted wireless connections; since it's a program external to NetworkManager, it writes its own information to /var/log/syslog, some of it is a little cryptic.
<cyphermox> If you scroll down on that link to the entries starting in WLAN_STATUS_ and WLAN_REASON_; you can match those to messages from wpasupplicant when it fails to connect (the things you'll see, once again, in /var/log/syslog)
<cyphermox> Let me see if I can find a good example.
<cyphermox> wpa_supplicant[1152]: CTRL-EVENT-DISCONNECTED bssid=58:6d:8f:70:71:d6 reason=4
<cyphermox> there's also reason 3 that is pretty common
<cyphermox> Reason 4 means WLAN_REASON_DISASSOC_DUE_TO_INACTIVITY; which I think means I took too long to authenticate myself (in this particular case)
<cyphermox> Reason 3 would mean that it's a normal disconnection (DEAUTH_LEAVING) because of roaming to a different network, or changing connections.
<cyphermox> This is data that is particularly useful when reporting bugs, because it gives me (and other developers) and idea of what might have happened without needing packet traces, or access to the wireless access-point ;)
<cyphermox> Other issues that come up often in large locations is WLAN_REASON_DISASSOC_AP_BUSY 5; which can mean that there are too many clients connected to the access point already
<cyphermox> I've seen this happen a few times in bug reports, in university environments where the APs may be pretty busy
<cyphermox> Back to the wiki page:
<cyphermox> There's another link, to the upstream debugging page: http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/Debugging. If you're curious, and in need of more tricks on figuring out what might be happening that's a nice place to look
<cyphermox> In 11.10, we also made it easier to get debugging logs
<cyphermox> Before, you had to shut down NetworkManager (and lose your connection), then start it again with a complicated command-line.
<cyphermox> Or if you wanted to get debugging logs from wpasupplicant, you had to *edit* configuration files as root -- not very fun, for anyone
<cyphermox> I wrote a small script in Python that makes this easier: see "Getting debug logs" on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingNetworkManager
<cyphermox> that script has since made it upstream, and is now shipped with every install of Ubuntu Desktop:
<cyphermox> sudo python /usr/lib/NetworkManager/debug-helper.py --nm debug
<cyphermox> You can with this quickly enable debugging in NM, in ModemManager (for 3G connections), and in wpasupplicant
<cyphermox> See sudo /usr/lib/NetworkManager/debug-helper.py --help
<cyphermox> When responding to bug reports, I'll ask for the kind of debugging information needed.
<cyphermox> The last think I want to show is "nmcli"
<cyphermox> Not purely debugging, but it's a nice little tool that can be useful if you need to get online and can't start the graphical interface
<cyphermox> It interfaces with NetworkManager to allow you to bring down, or bring up connections.
<cyphermox> Unfortunately, it does not yet *create* connections, that's something we want to fix for 12.10.
<cyphermox> The interface for it is a little complicated; but "nmcli help" helps
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<cyphermox> For any of the commands in it you can use "nmcli <command>  help", like "nmcli con help"
<cyphermox> So, to bring up a connection from the command line:
<cyphermox> nmcli con up id "cyphermox.net"
<cyphermox> (changing "cyphermox.net" with whatever your connection is called ;)
<cyphermox> 'nmcli con' lists all connections, and 'nmcli dev' lists all the devices.
<cyphermox> nmcli con status id "UQAM Wi-Fi" can give you all the information about a connection
<cyphermox> Though "nm-tool" is a slightly simpler way to get all this in one go :)
<cyphermox> and finally, if you want to list wireless networks in range, you can try "nmcli dev wifi list"
<cyphermox> I'm pretty much done; any questions?
<cyphermox> If you want to contact me on IRC, I'm mostly always connected and hanging out in #nm with other NetworkManager developers... As well as in many many channels. Feel free to ping me if you need help figuring out what might be going wrong, but I do encourage bug reports rather than email or other forms of contact, it's easier to track if something was fixed :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<cyphermox> No questions?
<cyphermox> Thanks all for listening! :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Scaling wordpress with juju, the OMG!Ubuntu! story - Instructors: marcoceppi, imbrandon
<marcoceppi> If everyone's ready, we'll get started!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<marcoceppi> Feel free to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat at anytime during the discussion
<marcoceppi> Hello, my name is Marco Ceppi, I'm a Senior DevOps Engineer and Ubuntu Member. This is going to be a two part openweek class the first half consisting of how we setup and migrated OMG! Ubuntu! from traditional host to Juju deploy cloud service, the pitfalls and victories involved with that transition.
<marcoceppi> The second half will be led by Brandon Holtsclaw, a Senior DevOps Engineer and Ubuntu Developer, who will dive in to the more technical aspect of the OMG! Ubuntu! charm and how it's been setup to scale.
<marcoceppi> If you're not familiar with Juju you can check it out at http://juju.ubuntu.com/ Juju is essentially a service orchestration tool for the cloud
<imbrandon> o/
<marcoceppi> Some back story: About a month and a half ago OMG! Ubuntu!'s main server was down for about three days, on the third day we approached OMG! and asked if we could charm their environment and have it so OMG! can scale their service out when the load on the site grows (say about every six months during release).
<marcoceppi> The first steps we took were a bit naive, without much information we used Juju to deploy a MySQL charm, a WordPress charm, and an HAProxy charm.
<marcoceppi> After this was deployed and relations were made; we manually put OMG!'s theme files and Database files on to the charm, added a few extra WordPress heads and pointed the traffic at the HAProxy instance. Within moments all the services died under the load of traffic.
<marcoceppi> The next week was spent tuning WordPress to scale properly to meet the traffic demands of a site like OMG!
<marcoceppi> In order to work on the charm simultaneously we employed several techniques both within and outside of Juju
<marcoceppi> First we forked the default wordpress charm and started building on to it all the things that were needed to run OMG! within Juju
<imbrandon> hey marcoceppi
<imbrandon> a few are a little foggy on what exact a charm is
<marcoceppi> Sure!
<imbrandon> can you spend half sec on that
<imbrandon> kk
<marcoceppi> Juju includes a collection of services that you can deploy which are called Charms. These Charms contain the information that let you deploy whatever services you want in Juju.
<marcoceppi> You can find a collection of the current charms in the Juju Charm Store: http://jujucharms.com/charms new Charms are being added every day to help flesh out the number of different things you can deploy with Juju
<marcoceppi> Each charm contains a set of hooks which can be written in any language that drive how the service is deployed, configured, and exposed to other services deployable by Juju
<marcoceppi> So, we forked the default WordPress charm (http://jujucharms.com/charms/oneiric/wordpress) so we could commit all the ongoing improvements required to make WordPress scale
<marcoceppi> Another issue we had to overcome was providing access to multiple people as there was a small group of experts working on this Charm. In order to do that we utilized a few tools for this
<marcoceppi> The first thing we did was gather all the SSH keys for each person involved and gave them access to the Juju environment by adding them to a list of keys in the Juju evironment file under "authorized-keys"
<marcoceppi> This allowed us to all to connect to the Juju environment and tweak things as needed.
<marcoceppi> During the earlier times of firefighting we started an EC2 micro instance and actually ran Juju from there in a byobu screen session
<marcoceppi> That way we could add additional people access to the environment without having to modify the Juju environment directly
<marcoceppi> Though that method of access was eventually replaced by the aforementioned authorized-keys way of divvying out access
<marcoceppi> As we continued to tweak the charm over time we were able to go from running three Extra Large Amazon EC2 instances just to keep the site up, down to just one Medium instance, to eventually serving everything from just one Small instance
<marcoceppi> This is kind of the core of what Juju Charms are, they encapsulate the knowledge of the Experts who know these services in to an easily deployable Charm. As the WordPress charm was one of the first to hit the charm store it didn't have that level of expertise capture
<marcoceppi> As the charm store has grown, more experts have contributed their knowledge of how *they* setup that service, meaning when you deploy something like MySQL (as we do in the case of the OMG! charm) that MySQL service is tuned by a MySQL expert for cloud computing and Juju
<marcoceppi> That's what will happen with the WordPress charm, as the work on OMG! Ubuntu! charm finishes, the lessons learned from creating a highly scalable WP installation will be merged in to the existing WordPress charm, making it available to everyone for deployment
<marcoceppi> Any questions so far on Juju, Charms, how we shared environments, etc?
<marcoceppi> In that case I'm going to go ahead and let imbrandon discuss more the technical aspect of the OMG! Ubuntu! charm and things we ended up doing to make it so powerful
<imbrandon> o/ Hey Everyone , I'm gonna give a real high overview of the stuff we use to make it so fast, and scale so well then, i'll get into the config bits in detail just a little bit
<imbrandon> first of all like marcoceppi said , the first days we rough with 3 extra large instances running apache and mod_php
<imbrandon> a pretty standard lamp stack
<imbrandon> the first things we swapped out were to bring nginx into the mix with php-fpm as the processor
<imbrandon> this allowed us to out of the box drop down to mediums with no special config
<imbrandon> on top of nginx and php , we needed to make sure the opcode caching ( APC ) was setup correctly
<imbrandon> and as we got those things started to calm down a bit and we really had the time to put
<imbrandon> some of this into code back into the charm
<imbrandon> allowing us to redeploy at this level at will, and also allowing us to setup "staging"
<imbrandon> where we would test many diff options before actualy needed to do it on the live servers
<imbrandon> if your not aware of the traffic we're talking about , omg gets somewhere between 3 million and 7 million pageviews a month
<imbrandon> that works out to , well â0- time of the day that it can be down and someone not be effected
<imbrandon> so staging really helped us to achieve that and with juju at a level that we're confident it matched production
<imbrandon> ok now , a little bit about the actual config
<imbrandon> you can actually find the code we deploy with at https://github.com/websitedevops/charms-omgubu
<imbrandon> no this is not the general WP charm that you would deploy
<imbrandon> as it has alot of OMG specific items
<imbrandon> but the general idea of it will be put back ":upstream:" into the WP charm for every one
<imbrandon> one of the main things we do diffrently on OMG that is not a wide practice yet is "Micro-caching"
<imbrandon> where as traditional caching there is problems with content getting out of sync
<imbrandon> or logged in vs logged out users , etc
<imbrandon> what a microcache does is caches everything, instead of only anon users, but only for a very short time
<imbrandon> in our case 60s
<imbrandon> normally its anywhere from 1 second to 60 seconds
<imbrandon> and at that level then all the traffic is handled by the nginx load balancer
<imbrandon> and actual traffic to php only happens a few times a minute
<imbrandon> scaling a webserver to handle 300req/s is not all that trivial, but to scale one to 3 req/s is much more ootb
<imbrandon> this alllows us to use a very stock wordpress with out much code modification to handle the scale out
<imbrandon> but still handle i think we measured right at 260req/s per webhead on realease day a few days ago
<imbrandon> another thing we use is tracking and metric software
<imbrandon> to allow us to know where the bottlenecks are and what areas to concentrate on
<imbrandon> i've done a quick screencast you all can watch at your leasure that goes over the use of Blitz.io for load testing the staging env before we deploy it to prod
<imbrandon> and Newrelic ( thats also a charm in juju ) to "see" inside the app code as it runs
<imbrandon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXR5V4j-UMo
<imbrandon> is where the screencast lives, and forgive the quality, as it is my first attempt at such
<imbrandon> also
<imbrandon> if you take a look at this file in particular
<imbrandon> https://github.com/websitedevops/charms-omgubu/blob/master/files/nginx/etc_nginx_sites-enabled_loadbalancer
<imbrandon> you can see exactly what i was talking about with the micro-caching that we do with nginx
<imbrandon> anything so far that you all would like covered a little deeper ?
<imbrandon> ok I'm gonna let marcoceppi step back in for a moment
<imbrandon> and go over a few more things
<imbrandon> and I'll return before we wrap up
<marcoceppi> What's great about investing time in Charm authoring, is how portable the Charms are
<marcoceppi> As imbrandon mentioned, we were able to create a "staging" environment on EC2 for testing updates to the charm before the went live, but we were also able to deploy the charm locally to our own machines
<marcoceppi> This allowed us to develop, deploy, destroy, develop, deploy, destroy, over and over without actually needing to pay a dime to EC2 or another cloud provider as everything was deployed locally
<marcoceppi> One of the benefits of Juju is it's cloud abstraction, the same charm you deploy locally, will deploy on EC2, OpenStack, MAAS, Orchestra, etc
<marcoceppi> Right now we're deploying OMG! to EC2, but if a more cost effective cloud provider was available we could deploy to them if they're supported by Juju with little to no modifications of the charm
<imbrandon> ( we have tested the environment in HPCloud and are currently evaluating Rackspace too , all with the same codebase and "tweaks" )
<marcoceppi> As we continue to make improvements and test them for OMG! Ubuntu! upgrading the current environment is very simple and straight forward, since Juju tracks all the units, services, and all those relations, etc when we need to upgrade the current deployment it's as easy as juju upgrade-charm omgubuntu
<marcoceppi> This makes rollouts to the current charm, and upgrades to things like MySQL extremely straight forward.
<marcoceppi> Any questions on anything we've talked about so far, or OMG! Ubuntu! we can answer?
<imbrandon> If anyone would like to scale their own sites in much the same ways we're normally available in #juju as well as many other
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<imbrandon> experienced Charmers
<marcoceppi> We have a few minutes left, in addition to imbrandon's screencast on Blitz.io here are two showing line for line deploying OMG! Ubuntu! and scaling it out
<marcoceppi> http://shelr.tv/records/4f86f8da9660807979000013
<marcoceppi> http://shelr.tv/records/4f86fbe1966080796f000015
<marcoceppi> I believe that's all we have time for today, if you're interested in learning more about Juju join the #juju IRC room, on the web at http://juju.ubuntu.com
<imbrandon> Well I think that about does it for us then, again we're always around in #juju if you do have any questions later, even if its normal scaling , we might be able to help or point you to the right resource, and hopefully you all enjoyed the talk , and can now enjoy OMG!Ubuntu :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Gaming on Ubuntu - Instructors: iheartubuntu - Slides: http://is.gd/wWEepQ
<ClassBot> Slides for Gaming on Ubuntu: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/slides/gaming_in_ubuntu-uow-p.pdf
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> Hi everyone, thanks for coming!
<pleia2> iheartubuntu: all yours :)
<iheartubuntu> Hello everyone! My name is Dave and I am an Ubuntu *only* user of 6 years. Ubuntu is my only operating system. I help out with my California LoCo team and enjoy meeting new people at Ubuntu Hours.
<pleia2> if you have questions, please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with the prefix QUESTION: so it gets picked up by the bot
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 1]
<iheartubuntu> Gaming On Ubuntu
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 2]
<iheartubuntu> It's 2012 already. Lets play some games.
<iheartubuntu> Gaming in Ubuntu has come a long way. You no longer have to spend hours on the internet searching for games that work on Ubuntu.
<iheartubuntu> Nor do you need to learn distro packaging or learn how to compile programs from the terminal.
<iheartubuntu> It is now easy to find and install games. Great games.
<iheartubuntu> Lets take a look...
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 3]
<iheartubuntu> So where can you go to find new & breaking information about games?
<iheartubuntu> There are several websites that offer great news & info about Ubuntu games.
<iheartubuntu> These websites usually will provide links to download the games and instructions on how to install.
<iheartubuntu> OMG! Ubuntu! http://omgubuntu.co.uk/
<iheartubuntu> I Heart Ubuntu http://www.iheartubuntu.com/
<iheartubuntu> Linux Games http://www.linuxgames.com/
<iheartubuntu> Full Circle Magazine http://fullcirclemagazine.org/
<iheartubuntu> The well respected OMG! Ubuntu! has breaking news about recently released Ubuntu games and is a great source of info.
<iheartubuntu> I Heart Ubuntu loves to cover legacy games like chess and backgammon.
<iheartubuntu> Linux Games always has up to date game info, and Full Circle Magazine has great in depth reviews of games.
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 4]
<iheartubuntu> Now you want to know where to Find some Ubuntu Games.
<iheartubuntu> There are now several places to find games that will work on Ubuntu.
<iheartubuntu> The Ubuntu Software Center is packed full of games to keep you busy.
<iheartubuntu> It's that little orange shopping bag icon on your Unity dash.
<iheartubuntu> The Desura.com game distribution website has high quality games available for Ubuntu.
<iheartubuntu> Many of the hottest games are now appearing there first.
<iheartubuntu> You can find Ubuntu Linux specific games on their site here: http://www.desura.com/platforms/set/linux64
<iheartubuntu> Humble Bundle continues to release fresh new game content.
<iheartubuntu> They give you the choice of how much to spend and where to allocate your payment (to developers, to charity, etc)
<iheartubuntu> It's a great site. You can find them here: http://www.humblebundle.com/
<iheartubuntu> Playdeb.net caters to the Ubuntu gamer and attempts to make it easy to find, browse and install Ubuntu games.
<iheartubuntu> Make sure you read up on how to install games from their website. http://www.playdeb.net/updates/
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 5]
<iheartubuntu> Other Games... There are a few other options you can try as well.
<iheartubuntu> PlayOnLinux is an Ubuntu program that uses the WINE compatibility layer to run Windows games on Ubuntu.
<iheartubuntu> Not all Windows games work, but many of them do. Try it out if you want to have a certain game installed.
<iheartubuntu> PlayOnLinux http://www.playonlinux.com/en/
<iheartubuntu> You have the option of scouting the internet for all sorts of Adobe Flash games, Java games and more.
<iheartubuntu> The Google Chrome Store has a ton of Online Games and makes a great place to find new and interesting web based games.
<iheartubuntu> You will need Google Chrome or Chromium to access their web store here... https://chrome.google.com/webstore/category/app/3-games
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 6]
<iheartubuntu> Ubuntu Games: A Starting Point
<iheartubuntu> The following pages are by no means an exhaustive list of Ubuntu Games available. There are far more than we can imagine.
<iheartubuntu> If you are interested in installing any of these games on the list, start by searching to see if its available in the Ubuntu Software Center.
<iheartubuntu> If not, try PlayDeb, Desura, or the Humble Bundle.
<iheartubuntu> These lists are not necessarily the best of the best and they may perhaps leave out your all time favorite (snakes). We apologize in advance :)
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 7]
<iheartubuntu> ARCADE: Extreme Tux Racer, Frets on Fire, Frozen Bubble, Super Tux 2, Teeworlds, Frogatto
<iheartubuntu> Again, these are just a handful of some great games you
<iheartubuntu> will find. But there are lots more.
<iheartubuntu> BOARD: PyChess, GNU Backgammon, Mahjongg, Shisen-Sho, Pyscrabble, GTKAtlantic, Lagno
<iheartubuntu> CARD: PokerTH, Aisleriot Solitaire, Hearts
<iheartubuntu> DRIVING: Supertuxkart, Stunt Rally, Speed Dreams, Torqs, Vdrift, Corebreach, Road Fighter, Trophy
<iheartubuntu> (the recently updated Supertuxkart has some all new great additions, check it out if you havent played it in a while)
<iheartubuntu> MMORPG: Regnum Online (now called Realms Online), Ryzom, Planeshift, Tribal Trouble 2, Flare
<iheartubuntu> ACTION/FPS: Steel Storm: Burning Retribution, Alien Arena, Open Arena, Urban Terror, Smokin Guns, Wolfenstein
<iheartubuntu> (ive burned several hours on Steel Storm! Its fun)
<iheartubuntu> SIMULATION: Flight Gear, Danger of the Deep, Zero Ballistics, Vendetta Online, Vega Strike, OpenBVE
<iheartubuntu> Danger of the Deep is a high quality submarine sim. Worth a look if you are into it
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 8]
<iheartubuntu> STRATEGY: Oil Rush, TripleA, Battle For Wesnoth, Family Farm, Open TTD, FreeCol, FreeCiv, Warzone 2100, Bos Wars
<iheartubuntu> (my sister is hooked on Family Farm.. very addictive and nice graphics)
<iheartubuntu> SPORT: Neverputt, Neverball, Volley Brawl, Awesome Soccer, Billiard-GL, Foobillard, Marble Arena 2
<iheartubuntu> The sports games on Ubuntu is definitely lacking IMO
<iheartubuntu> PUZZLE: World of Goo, COGS, Clockwork Man: Hidden World, Palapeli, Sudoku, Tanglet, GBrainy, Chainz Galaxy, 7 Wonders: Magical Mystery Tour
<iheartubuntu> (some of these games do cost money. hidden world is a nice hidden object game)
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 9]
<iheartubuntu> Thats about it for this lesson. You can download this PDF document here as well - http://ubuntuone.com/4MBDAYiMv70oQz8EBfBzDU
<pleia2> Anyone have any questions for iheartubuntu?
<pleia2> please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat prefixed with QUESTION:
<iheartubuntu> Hope you picked up something new!
<iheartubuntu> PlayOnLinux makes it super easy for running Windows games on Ubuntu. For example World of Warcraft works great. A favorite of mine called "Future Pinball" run great as well.
<iheartubuntu> The new Diablo 3 is coming out soon and I have read several places that while linux wont be supported, the game works fine using WINE (and playonlinux)
<ClassBot> quixotedon asked: does pcsx work fine on 12.04? just installed it a few days ago before the upgrade and haven't tried it since i don't know where to find the emulation file.. :)
<iheartubuntu> QUIXOTEDON: actually it works great. the internet is your friend.
<ClassBot> UnR34L asked: Do you think the big gaming companys are sweeping linux under the carpet these days or have you seen any progress from them ?
<iheartubuntu> I use the keyboard to play the pcsx games, but a gamepad would be a lot easier
<iheartubuntu> Personally I feel linux games get swept under the rug by the big publishers. So yeah.
<ClassBot> bmoez asked: we found many tutoriels to install some games with wine, but adding this games to the list of playonlinux' games isn't very used as the best way to run win'games en ubuntu. what do you think about it?
<iheartubuntu> Ive been running Ubuntu for 6 years now and have not seen a lot of momentum up until recently with the new Ubuntu Software Center about 6-10 months ago.
<iheartubuntu> Games are pouring in now
<iheartubuntu> Its worth checking Ubuntu Software Center weekly at least as new games keep popping up and many of them are high quality (finally)
<iheartubuntu> PlayOnLinux uses WINE, so for ease of use I now see if I can install a Windows based game through PlayOnLinux first.
<iheartubuntu> If the game is listed in their directory it should work great.
<iheartubuntu> If not, your best option is to check the WINE database and follow any tips or instructions to get the game working properly http://appdb.winehq.org/
<ClassBot> quixotedon asked: anyway my big question is why can't there be more games made on a cross platform such as Qt, rather than insisting on putting it on windows.. or should we non windows users urge so?
<iheartubuntu> I think with google opening up their kernel and kernels merging if you will, we are going to see a ton of Android games hit the market. When? Who knows, but I would say sometime this year from researching.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<iheartubuntu> Quixotedon, I am not sure about Qt, sorry.
<ClassBot> bmoez asked: game center become a part of OS (as on mac), will we found a official game center that interconnect with others games services (ex: steam, djl, playonlinux, getdeb-games,...) to help users to install there favorites games easy in next version?
<iheartubuntu> Bmoez, thats a great question and one I have no answer for. Continue to follow the websites listed on Slide 3 of the presentation for up to date info.
<ClassBot> bmoez asked: will getDeb-games become an optional repository in ubuntu the same way as linuxmint?
<iheartubuntu> Not to my knowledge, but it is super simple to install via their DEB file or following their easy guide to installing the repository here: http://www.playdeb.net/updates/Ubuntu/11.10#how_to_install
<iheartubuntu> After installing the DEB file or adding the rep manually, I recommend opening  terminal window and typing in "sudo apt-get update" to make sure the new reps go into effect.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<iheartubuntu> This way when you click "Install this game" on their website, it will access their repository you just installed.
<iheartubuntu> I have enjoyed this immensely and hope you have to. Please catch my next lesson tomorrow at the same time... "Starting, Maintaining & Expanding Ubuntu Hours"
<pleia2> thanks iheartubuntu :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to help with IRC issues when you're not an operator - Instructors: topyli
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> welcome topyli!
<pleia2> everyone: if you have questions, please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with the prefix QUESTION: so it gets picked up by the bot
<topyli> thanks pleia2
<topyli> Hi all, and thank you for attending
<topyli> My name is Juha and I'm an IRC addict. :-)
<topyli> I'm an Ubuntu user and have been using the Ubuntu IRC channels basically as long as Ubuntu has existed. I've also been a member of the IRC Team for a few years, and an operator in #ubuntu-offtopic as well as its Finnish equivalent.
<topyli> I currently serve on the Ubuntu IRC Council, which is tasked with governing and developing the Ubuntu channels on freenode.
<topyli> I am not a terribly technical person, but I'm pretty well familiar on how the Ubuntu IRC culture works.
<topyli> More or less up to date information information is available on the Ubuntu wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuhaSiltala
<topyli> This session is about how you as a user of the Ubuntu IRC channels can help with IRC governance and help keep the channels friendly and useful for everybody.
<topyli> To summarise up front: plenty of ways! :-)
<topyli> We'll try to cover these general topics today:
<topyli> 1) Support. 2) Catalyzing. 3) Contacting operators when needed. 4) Becoming an operator yourself, if you're really really sure you want to.
<topyli> Support. There are a few golden rules here.
<topyli> First of all, when helping someone, be helpful. Please do not tell people to google for stuff. They can probably do that themselves, and may very well have tried already.
<topyli> Do give helpful links. By all means, try and suggest better search terms though, if the user has failed in their previous search attempt, but telling someone to google something is just rude and not very "Ubuntuish".
<topyli> If you're not sure you understand the user's problem properly, say so, or say nothing. Someone else will hopefully step up and help the user. Bad advice is likely to make the user's problem only worse.
<topyli> If you notice someone else giving bad advice, correct them. Correct them nicely and politely though.
<topyli> Be prepared to give up if you're failing to solve someone's problem.
<topyli> And here's an important thing to remember:
<topyli> Do not get stressed out! Take a break and chat in #ubuntu-offtopic or some other nice place. Or take the dog out. Or go and have a beer. Relax. Ubuntu is supposed to be fun and relaxing, and stress will ruin it for you.
<topyli> You're not at work after all :-)
<topyli> Here's our general supporter's guide which you may want to look at after the class: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/SupportersGuide
<topyli> I don't want to spend too much on this support topic, so unless we have questions, we might want to move on.
<topyli> ok
<topyli> Catalyzing. This is all-important, I can not stress it enough.
<topyli> I'll quote freenode's excellent document on catalysts:
<topyli> "Catalysts try to resolve problems, not through the use of authority and special privilege, but by fostering consensus, gently nudging participants in the direction of more appropriate behavior and by generally reducing the level of confrontation rather than confronting users with problems."
<topyli> hrm, didn't have the link. here it is: http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
<topyli> More often than not, this is enough to defuse pretty much any situation, or to nudge a person in the right direction.
<topyli> Sometimes, all that a user who seems troublesome needs is to *know* that our standard behavior is a bit different from theirs.
<topyli> You can simply link to the IRC Guidelines and remind the user(s) about their existence: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
<topyli> The thing is, we can, and should, all do this.
<topyli> Your own behavior is of course hopefully a good example of "Ubuntu culture" and people do notice it, believe me.
<topyli> Different channels have different cultures, so keep your level of "tolerance" close to correct :-)
<topyli> Busier channels have lower tolerance for noise. Offtopic channels often confuse people, especially new people, into thinking that anything goes.
<topyli> But not just anything does of course. They're still Ubuntu channels.
<topyli> Any questions on catalyzing?
<topyli> No. Moving on. :)
<topyli> Catalyzing sometimes fails.
<topyli> Contacting operators. Since our operators (or ops on freenode generally) usually don't wear their operator flag, you might not even know who *are* operators on any given channel. :)
<topyli> If you do want a list of ops on a channel, you can ask freenode's chanserv by '/msg chanserv access list #channel'
<topyli> There is also a useful command for ubottu, our infobot, which will alert ops when a situation is urgent and no operator seems to be active.
<topyli> The command is !ops. DO NOT TRY IT NOW :-)
<topyli> Ops get quite annoyed when that's misused.
<topyli> Annoyed ops are the worst kind
<topyli> Use that command only when there's an obvious troll flooding the channel with inappropriate content, or when all your attempts to reason with an abusive user fail.
<topyli> Common sense is pretty good at figuring out when to call ops.
<topyli> You can also discuss with the operators directly. You can join #ubuntu-ops to talk to the "core" channel operators, and #ubuntu-irc in order to catch up with the operators of "non-core" and international channels.
<topyli> Core channels are defined here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope - basically a core channel is the main support or discussion channel of an official Ubuntu distribution.
<topyli> Channels like #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, and the equivalent of official derivates
<topyli> Most of the "non-core" channels are those belonging to local communities, and various other channels. Here's a full list if you want to be amazed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
<topyli> :)
<topyli> You can join #ubuntu-ops or #ubuntu-irc any time when you have anything to discuss with operators.
<topyli> However, you cannot idle in #ubuntu-ops. When your issue is dealt with, please /part the channel. #ubuntu-irc is more relaxed about that
<topyli> You might also like to join the IRC Team's mailing list if you have general issues to discuss. It's not too busy so your inbox won't explode if you do. https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-irc
<topyli> You do have to subscribe in order to send mail to the list.
<topyli> Please don't hasitate to raise issues on IRC or the mailing list when someone is bugging you or you have an improvement to suggest on how we should run our IRC channels.
<topyli> The IRC Team and Council may well be blind to some glaring issue you're noticing.
<topyli> Any questions about contacting operators?
<topyli> Oh one thing. Even though privately messaging someone on IRC is often considered, rude, operators and freenode staff can be bugged without hesitation.
<topyli> They've already accepted their miserable fate. :-)
<topyli> No questions. My narrative is obviously perfect :)
<topyli> Becoming an operator yourself. First of all, you want to be absolutely sure and certain that you actually want this. :-)
<topyli> It is not much of an honor, but a job. A volunteer job at that, too.
<topyli> It is not a good idea to plan to be an op because it "might be fun" - it's not (often).
<topyli> That said, you're helping Ubuntu and it can be quite satisfying and rewarding.
<topyli> When people get help, they tend to like that. Consequently, they're going to like you too.
<topyli> What's more awesome than that!
<topyli> If you are thinking about this, talk to someone who is already an operator in the channel where you're active and willing to serve.
<topyli> If the operator fails to talk you out of your crazy idea, the process and requirements for becoming an operator is described here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<topyli> I also once wrote a little something about this: http://www.siltala.net/2010/03/24/ops-teams-applications-announcement/
<topyli> Any questions about this?
<topyli> I don't mean to sound like being an op will ruin your life. It's just something that you will want to think about carefully.
<topyli> Of course, if you later decide that you've made a mistake, you can leave the team. There's no guilt in that.
<topyli> In conclusion, I'd just like to remind everyone that IRC contributions count when assessing your potential Ubuntu Membership application, so your work will be noted.
<topyli> The IRC Council is able to accept new members even on IRC contributions alone, so we do take IRC quite seriously: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââWhat is the general action if people are not following the Ubuntu Code of Conduct?
<topyli> iheartubuntu2: we should first point out that the code exists, and it is to be respected everywhere in the Ubuntu universe
<topyli> sometimes people forget this, especially in offtopic channels
<topyli> if talking fails, there's no option but to have ops deal with it
<topyli> "dealing with it" means usually a +q (mute) flag on the user, so they can't disturb the channel, and the operator talking to them in private
<topyli> ultimately, the user may be banned. the Code is not negotiable
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââIf one is interested in becoming an IRC operator, is there a general requirement or commitment in terms of hours per day, week or month to hold status?
<topyli> there is no measurable requirement
<topyli> you should be active in the channel where you want to be an operator
<topyli> also, since our earth is unfortunately not flat, we have time zones
<topyli> often, one timezone is better covered on a certain channel than another, so op applicants from the "missing hours" will be somewhat favored
<topyli> last call for questions, otherwise i'm going to call it a day :)
<topyli> ok. thanks all.
<topyli> don't forget that i and all other operators are available for further questions if you ever have one
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pleia2> thanks topyli :)
<topyli> thanks
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/02/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<pleia2> this wraps up Ubuntu Open Week for today, join us again tomorrow at 13:00 for more, full schedule here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<pleia2> (13:00 UTC, of course)
<Sidewinder> Thanks, all.
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-03
<Trollenberg> Tr0113n63rg !s m!n3 n0w
<gusbru_> quit
<gusbru_> exit
<dpm> hey all
<dpm> how's everyone doing?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Submitting your apps to the Ubuntu Software Centre - Instructors: dpm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dpm> so I hope everyone is doing well, and ready for the second day of Ubuntu Open Week!
<dpm> let's wait a minute for stragglers to come in and then we can start
<dpm> I hope you all are enjoying Ubuntu Open Week so far...
<dpm> great day of sessions yesterday, I especially enjoyed the omgubuntu story by marcoceppi and imbrandon
<dpm> anyway, let's get started, shall we?
<dpm> Hi everyone and welcome to the first session of Ubuntu Open Week Day 2!
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work in the Community team at Canonical
<dpm> During the next hour I'll be talking about how to submit your apps to Ubuntu,
<dpm> so that they get published in the Software Centre
<dpm> to be distributed to millions of users that will surely enjoy your cool software :)
<dpm> But it will not be just a talk: I'll  make sure that there is plenty of time for everyone
<dpm> to participate and ask their questions at the end. However, feel free to interrupt me
<dpm> during the rest of the session if you've got any questions.
<dpm> sorry for the delay
<dpm> ok, I was saying
<dpm> Just remember to prepend them with QUESTION: on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel
<dpm> Throughout the talk I will be referring to different places in the Ubuntu App Developer site,
<dpm> which is the central place for anyone wanting to create and publish their apps in Ubuntu.
<dpm> Here's where it lives:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com
<dpm> ... and without further ado ...
<dpm> let's get rolling!
<dpm>  
<dpm> Creating your app
<dpm> -----------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> Well, the first step is obvious, you have to create your app,
<dpm> which is basically the time when you materialise that cool idea into beautiful software.
<dpm> I will not dwell too much on this subject, as it's beyond the scope of the session,
<dpm> however, I'll just add a couple of tips for new app authors.
<dpm> If you're considering writing a new application for Ubuntu, I'd recommend
<dpm> to use the standard set of development tools available from the Ubuntu Software Centre
<dpm> They are an extremely powerful and versatile bunch of utilities
<dpm> which will not only put everything you need to write software at your fingertips,
<dpm> but also will help you following good development practices.
<dpm> And they're all Free Software and also free as in free beer!
<dpm> You've got an overview of our recommendations to write new apps here:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/quickly-workflow/
<dpm> What we've also got is a tool called Quickly, which puts all those technologies together
<dpm> You can learn more about it here, it's got a nice and short video tutorial
<dpm> to show you how to write a basic functional template for your app in 3 minutes:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/
<dpm> However, if you've already written an application with another set of tools,
<dpm> or if you do prefer another choice of toolkit, that's also ok!
<dpm> We're providing these recommendations to make it easy for app authors to get started
<dpm> and provide a smooth path for publishing their apps.
<dpm> However, we acknowledge the diversity of the whole Open Source ecosystem,
<dpm> so you can basically submit your apps using your weapon of choice.
<dpm> Just remember that our recommendations will make things easier, though!
<dpm> ok, moving along
<dpm> oh, any questions so far?
<dpm> if so, remember to ask them on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel, prepending them with QUESTION
<dpm> ok, if there aren's any, let's move on...
<dpm>  
<dpm> Which types of apps qualify
<dpm> ---------------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> There are thousands of apps available in the Ubuntu archive already, which usually get in there through other means.
<dpm> Many of these fall into the category of system software, or big applications that are part of the Ubuntu platform.
<dpm> They are also subject to strict policies to ensure the security and quality of the software,
<dpm> as well as to ensure that they are indeed Free Software and can be distributed with Ubuntu.
<dpm> So in order to differentiate from these archive applications, I'll call the process  we'll be talking about today, "the app developer process".
<dpm> Ultimately though, all software is published through the Software Centre
<dpm> There are are 3 broad categories under which apps to be submitted through the app developer process fall:
<dpm> * Paid-for apps
<dpm> * Gratis apps with proprietary licenses
<dpm> * Gratis apps with Open Source licenses
<dpm> Notice that as well as open source, we're also embracing commercial applications
<dpm> to give the opportunity to app authors and Canonical to make revenue of application sales.
<dpm> This should give you a rough idea, but ultimately you will need to know
<dpm> the whole details to see if your app qualifies for the app developer process.
<dpm> - For paid-for and gratis+proprietary apps:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/commercial-software-faqs/
<dpm> - For gratis+open source apps:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review/Guidelines
<dpm> ok, I see there are some questions, so I'll stop for a minute to take the opportunity to answer them
<ClassBot> rks063 asked: i want to know that which language to opt for development?
<dpm> we're currently recommending Python as a language of choice
<dpm> in conjunction with a set of other tools to make you more productive when you're developing:
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/quickly-workflow/
<dpm> This are the recommendations if you're a new developer, but as I was saying earlier on, if you've already started writing an app in another language, that's also welcome
<ClassBot> eosorio asked: is there an app requirement desing?
<dpm> That's a really good question
<dpm> We do not have any design requirements at the moment - it's up to the app developer to choose consistent design standards
<dpm> We do have documentation on how to better integrate with Ubuntu and Unity, though, which I would personally recommend to follow
<dpm> check this out: http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/platform/unity/
<ClassBot> Syd23 asked: How does a beginner ensure top quality code and where to find help?
<dpm> for this one, I'd recommend browsing through the Resources section on the Ubuntu App Developer site, where you'll find the info you need and pointers to external resources too:
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/
<dpm> as per getting help, Askubuntu or the other support and discussion resources will direct you to the places where your questions can be answered:
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/community/
<ClassBot> rks063 asked: which is thr basic part of ubuntu from where to start?
<dpm> that's a very broad question, I'd recommend starting with the Ubuntu Platform diagram to understand the basics: http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/platform/documentation/platform-diagram/
<dpm> ok, moving on...
<dpm> Next is where it gets interesting: how to actually submit your app!
<dpm> 1. Submitting your app
<dpm> ----------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> Ok, so all that cleared up, by this point you've already have a working app you'd
<dpm> like the world to see and enjoy ;)
<dpm> The good news is that we've got an easy, streamlined and web-based process
<dpm> to make it easy for you to to publish, keep track of, monitor and update your apps.
<dpm> For this, we've developed a tool especially for app developers.
<dpm> It's called My Apps and you'll find it on the app developer site:
<dpm>     https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com
<dpm> You'll see that it's easy and intuitive to use, and the first thing you'll want to do is to sign up for it
<dpm> so you can to enter the Ubuntu app developer programme and start using it straight away :-)
<dpm> Signing up it's free, and again, it's a matter of a couple of minutes.
<dpm> The process is based on Ubuntu's single login,
<dpm> so if you've got an Ubuntu SSO account already, it will be even quicker.
<dpm> Simply go to https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com, either click on the "Sign in or register" link at the top right hand side
<dpm> or the "Submit a new application" button, and the website will guide you through the process.
<dpm> Before you continue the process of submitting the app though, you might want to read the quickstart guide on:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/
<dpm> It will show you the basic steps you will be following and give you some useful tips along the way.
<dpm> So let's go quickly through them:
<dpm> 1 - Set up your My Apps account - you've already done that :)
<dpm> 2 - Prepare your app's icons and screenshots - you will want your app to be
<dpm> appealing to users, so make sure you've got nice screenshots and icons, in all recommended sizes
<dpm> 3 - Add your application details - here you'll be describing your app and making it easily
<dpm> discoverable in the Software Centre. Make sure the description is clear and use a spell-checker to avoid typos
<dpm> 4 - Choose your price - if your app is paid for, you'll have to decide the price in USD at this point
<dpm> The minimum price is $2.99
<dpm> 5 - Have an archive of your application ready to upload - here's where you upload your actual app to MyApps. More on this in a minute
<dpm> 6 - Your app will be reviewed - before it gets into the wild, your app needs to be reviewed and QAd. More on this in a minute too.
<dpm> So pretty easy, right? Now, going back on the step of uploading your app ...
<dpm> Ideally, you should submit a Debian source package. A Debian source package consists of 3 files (with extensions .dsc, diff.gz, orig.tar.gz), which you should put in a compressed archive (a tarball, zip file, rar...) and upload into My Apps.
<dpm> This will allow reviewers to easily test and publish your app.
<dpm> *However*, there are some important caveats:
<dpm>  * If your app is commercial or proprietary software: we still recommend uploading a Debian source package, but if you are not experienced in packaging you can also upload either
<dpm>    - Sources or binaries â Your applicationâs source or binary files, bundled in an archive file (.tar.gz, .zip, etc)
<dpm>    - Debian source package â A Debian source package (.dsc, diff.gz, orig.tar.gz files, if you are already familiar with packaging), bundled in an archive file (.tar.gz, .zip, etc)
<dpm> and the commercial packagers will package and publish it for you.
<dpm> Very soon we'll have automatic packaging in place, but more details on that when it's all deployed and working
<dpm> Also, as a wrap-up, check out this article on packaging commercial or proprietary software:
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/2012/02/how-to-prepare-a-compiled-application-for-ubuntu-software-center/
<dpm>  * If your app is Free Software and gratis: we recommend using a Personal Packaging Archive (PPA).
<dpm> You can specify the location of your PPA in the 'Any additional notes for the application reviewer' text box in the Overview tab of your app's entry in My Apps.
<dpm> You can also learn more about PPAs in the packaging section of the Ubuntu App Developer Site
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging
<dpm> And finally, you'll find all the information related to submissions and packaging on http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/my-apps-packages/
<dpm> Any questions on submissions?
<ClassBot> PaoloRotolo asked: Hi, sorry, if my app is free I put the PPA link in "Any additional notes for the application reviewer" but I can't submit it if the "Source" field is empty...
<dpm> good point. You need to upload something until this bug is fixed ->  https://bugs.launchpad.net/developer-portal/+bug/920428 - so my recommendation would be just to upload a file to complete the process, even if it's just a text file to indicate the url of your PPA
<ClassBot> eosorio asked: which percentage is for canonical vs developer?
<dpm> That info is public on http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/ - it's 80% for the app author and 20% for Canonical
<dpm> ok, let's continue
<dpm>  
<dpm> 2. Reviewing your app
<dpm> ---------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> After your application has been submitted, and depending of the type of app, one of two things will happen:
<dpm> * If it's a paid for or a gratis+proprietary app, it will be reviewed by the Canonical reviewers team. If necessary, they will package it for you and QA it. Very soon, though, we'll be able to automatically package those.
<dpm> * If it's a Free Software+gratis app, it will generally be reviewed by a team of volunteers called the Ubuntu App Review Board (ARB)
<dpm> In any case, reviewers will get in touch with you as soon as they start reviewing
<dpm> your app, and you will be notified of any app state changes by e-mail.
<dpm> For all the exact details of an application's lifecycle in My Apps, check out:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/application-states/
<dpm> And if you've submitted a Free Software app and you want to contact the ARB,
<dpm> you can jump into the #ubuntu-arb channel and ask how to help, or you can contact the ARB through e-mail
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard
<dpm> you'll find all the details there
<dpm>  
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> Ok, we're getting near the end, so time to wrap up...
<dpm>  
<dpm> Getting help
<dpm> ------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> If you need any help or if you've got any questions, be it during or before the
<dpm> publishing step, there is an awesome, awesome community of app developers out
<dpm> there just like you, willing to lend a hand
<dpm> Check out:
<dpm>     http://developer.ubuntu.com/community/
<dpm> From there, I'd like to highlight:
<dpm> * Real-time chat: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=ubuntu-app-devel
<dpm> i.e. the #ubuntu-app-devel IRC channel on Freenode
<dpm> * Askubuntu: http://www.askubuntu.com/questions/ask?tags=application-development
<dpm> For all your app development related questions
<dpm> and that was all for the talk :)
<dpm> I hope you've enjoyed, and let's see if there are any questions
<ClassBot> Hari85 asked: ââare scientific softwares reviewed by the people associated with the field
<dpm> it is up to the app developer to ensure their apps work as expected,
<dpm> so there is no review to ensure that scientific software (or in general of any other particular kind) are working up to the specs
<dpm> more questions?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> ok, so if there aren't any more questions, the only thing left is to thank you all for listening in and your questions. I hope you enjoyed the session, you learnt something new, and see you on the next one! :-)
<dpm> So time to leave the floor to dholbach, the man who epitomizes Ubuntu development and fun, with this "Ubuntu Development - how it all works" session!
<dholbach> thanks a lot dpm
<dholbach> Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week everyone!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development - how it all works - Instructors: dholbach
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical, but have been involved in Ubuntu development beforehand already - at Canonical I work with these fine young gentlemen: https://launchpad.net/~canonical-community/+mugshots
<dholbach> (dpm is one of them :-))
<dholbach> so if you have any questions, please please please ask - also if I'm being unclear or should confuse you :)
<dholbach> but please prefix it with QUESTION:
<dholbach> ie: QUESTION: Which band do jono and jcastro argue most about?
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> in this first session I'd like to give you an overview over Ubuntu development - so how a typical release cycle works out, what we work on, who we interact with and what general considerations are
<dholbach> in the second session, depending on how much time we have, I'll show you some practical examples of how we fix bugs and work on packages
<dholbach> Ubuntu is made up of thousands of different components, written in many different programming languages. Every component - be it a software library, a tool or a graphical application - is available as a source package.
<dholbach> Source packages in most cases consist of two parts: the actual source code and metadata. Metadata includes the dependencies of the package, copyright and licensing information, and instructions on how to build the package.
<dholbach> Once this source package is compiled, the build process provides binary packages, which are the .deb files users can install.
<dholbach> Every time a new version of an application is released, or when someone makes a change to the source code that goes into Ubuntu, the source package must be uploaded to Launchpadâs build machines to be compiled. The resulting binary packages then are distributed to the archive and its mirrors in different countries.
<dholbach> The URLs in /etc/apt/sources.list point to an archive or mirror.
<dholbach> Every day CD images are built for a selection of different Ubuntu flavours. Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server, Kubuntu and others specify a list of required packages that get on the CD. These CD images are then used for installation tests and provide the feedback for further release planning.
<dholbach> I hope this illustrates how we work on the source and the source only. Every now and then we get .deb packages submitted for review and inclusion - but it doesn't work that way. :-)
<dholbach> Any questions up until now?
<ClassBot> sagaci asked: when can one start developing/testing for the next ubuntu release?
<dholbach> sagaci, Usually the next development release is opened within a week after the last release got out.
<dholbach> So https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2012-April/000955.html for example announced that 'quantal' (12.10) was opened on the 30th April.
<dholbach> The release was on 26th April IIRC, so this was very well executed by toolchain, Ubuntu archive and Launchpad developers. :)
<ClassBot> rks063 asked: i am beginner in the developement of ubuntu. I want to know how to set up the environment for developing ?
<dholbach> rks063, I'll get to that in part 2 of the session :)
<dholbach> sorry - I should have mentioned it earlier: please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: if you have a new program which isnt available in debian but you want to compile it and get it into the ubuntu repositories what is the best way to go about doign that? get it in upstream debian?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, that's certainly a good way to do it - the advantage of getting it into Debian is obviously that you reach many many more users, but also that many other developers can help out with it as well
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages has more information about how to go about that
<dholbach> moving on - let me talk a bit about the typical Ubuntu release cycle
<dholbach> Ubuntuâs development is very much dependent on the current stage of the release cycle. We release a new version of Ubuntu every six months, which is only possible because we have established strict freeze dates.
<dholbach> With every freeze date that is reached developers are expected to make fewer, less intrusive changes.
<dholbach> Feature Freeze is the first big freeze date after the first half of the cycle has passed. At this stage features must be largely implemented. The rest of the cycle is supposed to be focused on fixing bugs.
<dholbach> After that the user interface, then the documentation, the kernel, etc. are frozen, then the beta release is put out which receives a lot of testing. From the beta release onwards, only critical bugs get fixed and a release candidate release is made and if it does not contain any serious problems, it becomes the final release.
<ClassBot> bobweaver asked: metadata is like control file in debian package ?
<dholbach> bobweaver, exactly, or debian/copyright or debian/changelog, etc.
<dholbach> if this doesn't make sense to anybody else yet, don't worry - we'll get to it in Part 2
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: are there guidelines where exceptions could and are made in regards to those freeze dates
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, yes - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess lists a few them, but generally - if you're unsure - you can always ask in #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-motu for advice
<dholbach> you can only document so much, sometimes you have to simply learn by osmosis - by talking to fellow developers by talking to them
<dholbach> Thousands of source packages, billions of lines of code, hundreds of contributors require a lot of communication and planning to maintain high standards of quality.
<dholbach> At the beginning of each release cycle we have the Ubuntu Developer Summit where developers and contributors come together to plan the features of the next releases. Every feature is discussed by its stakeholders and a specification is written that contains detailed information about its assumptions, implementation, the necessary changes in other places, how to test it and so on.
<dholbach> This is all done in an open and transparent fashion, so even if you can not attend the event in person, you can participate remotely and listen to a streamcast, chat with attendants and subscribe to changes of specifications, so you are always up to date.
<dholbach> If you go to http://uds.ubuntu.com/ you can see that the next UDS is going to happen in Oakland, California on 7â11 May 2012.
<dholbach> http://uds.ubuntu.com/community/remote-participation/ explains how to participate remotely
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: who can attend UDS? is it just canonical staff and full time employees only?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, anybody - if you're in the area and have time, make sure you drop by, say Hi, go into sessions and discuss things
<dholbach> Ubuntu is such a great place precisely because we have so many bright people who can easily contribute ideas, code and help in all kinds of other forms
<dholbach> if you're not in Oakland next week, you can still participate remotely
<dholbach> Any more questions about the release cycle or release planning?
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: in regards to kubuntu. is that now community run project still going to be a part of UDS and follow the same release cycle as ubuntu?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, yes
<dholbach> at UDS we have always had many meetings of all kinds of Ubuntu flavours, sometimes other communities chose to let their meetings coincide with UDS to discuss things there and get more people involved
<dholbach> so I don't expect things to change in this regard - it's a concept which has proven to work well :)
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: so basically it means there are no longer full time canonical employees involved in the project?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, if you talk about Kubuntu, then that question can't be really answered with 'yes' or 'no'
<dholbach> Kubuntu gets a lot of its foundations from Ubuntu (just like Ubuntu Desktop does), it still uses the same infrastructure
<dholbach> and there are people working on other Qt-related bits
<dholbach> so I don't think it would be fair to say "nobody works on Kubuntu"
<dholbach> but the goals of the Kubuntu distribution are not driven by Canonical
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: This might be a bit off topic but could you explain what canonical is doing in regards to kubuntu, cuz for me that is a great concern as well as other kubuntu users as well
<dholbach> it is a bit off-topic and I'm probably not the best person to answer the question - I hope what I said above at least gave some additional information
<dholbach> alright, moving on :)
<dholbach> Not every single change can be discussed in a meeting though, particularly because Ubuntu relies on changes that are done in other projects.
<dholbach> That is why contributors to Ubuntu constantly stay in touch. Most teams or projects use dedicated mailing lists to avoid too much unrelated noise.
<dholbach> For more immediate coordination, developers and contributors use Internet Relay Chat (IRC). All discussions are open and public.
<dholbach> Another important tool regarding communication is bug reports. Whenever a defect is found in a package or piece of infrastructure, a bug report is filed in Launchpad.
<dholbach> All information is collected in that report and its importance, status and assignee updated when necessary.
<dholbach> This makes it an effective tool to stay on top of bugs in a package or project and organise the workload.
<dholbach> Let's talk about the projects Ubuntu interacts with.
<dholbach> Most of the software available through Ubuntu is not written by Ubuntu developers themselves. Most of it is written by developers of other Open Source projects and then integrated into Ubuntu. These projects are called âUpstreamsâ, because their source code flows into Ubuntu, where we âmerelyâ integrate it.
<dholbach> The relationship to Upstreams is critically important to Ubuntu. It is not just code that Ubuntu gets from Upstreams, but it is also that Upstreams get users, bug reports and patches from Ubuntu (and other distributions).
<dholbach> The most important Upstream for Ubuntu is Debian. Debian is the distribution that Ubuntu is based on and many of the design decisions regarding the packaging infrastructure are made there.
<dholbach> Traditionally, Debian has always had dedicated maintainers for every single package or dedicated maintenance teams.
<dholbach> In Ubuntu there are teams that have an interest in a subset of packages too, and naturally every developer has a special area of expertise, but participation (and upload rights) generally is open to everyone who demonstrates ability and willingness.
<ClassBot> bmoez asked: if any body want to  discus about an idea or project in progress for the next version of ubuntu in UDS but he is not in Oakland next week, what can he do? is there any place to post his ideas (opinions)?
<dholbach> bmoez, first of all it makes sense to scan the list of sessions at UDS and make sure you can (remotely) attend them and add your thoughts via IRC
<dholbach> also I'd make sure to bring it up on a mailing list for a related team
<dholbach> ie: you want to improve documentation, then mail the ubuntu-server team mailing list with your proposal
<dholbach> but even if it doesn't get discussed at UDS, you can still write up a proposal with a dedicated implementation plan and bring it up for discussion with a relevant team
<dholbach> <bobweaver> Question: in the future is there anything that LP is goig to have to submit upstream packages to Ubuntu motu team I central hub that users can give simple info about upstream
<dholbach> bobweaver, can you give some additional information about what you're looking for? A place to submit packages for inclusion in Ubuntu?
<dholbach> if it is, I'd suggest to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<dholbach> <bobweaver> Question: Sure just say I find some source or "upsteeam" package that I want to hand off because I can not build my-self
<dholbach> bobweaver, yes, in that case have a look at the page I mentioned -it should describe what to do :)
<dholbach> Let's talk a bit about getting changes into Ubuntu. This is where you come in. :-)
<dholbach> Getting a change into Ubuntu as a new contributor is not as daunting as it seems and can be a very rewarding experience.
<dholbach> It is not only about learning something new and exciting, but also about sharing the solution and solving a problem for millions of users out there.
<dholbach> Open Source Development happens in a distributed world with different goals and different areas of focus. For example there might be the case that a particular Upstream is interested in working on a new big feature while Ubuntu, because of the tight release schedule, is interested in shipping a solid version with just an additional bug fix. That is why we make use of âDistributed Developmentâ, where code is being worked on in variou
<dholbach> s branches that are merged with each other after code reviews and sufficient discussion.
<dholbach> In this example it would make sense to ship Ubuntu with the existing version of the project, add the bugfix, get it into Upstream for their next release and ship that (if suitable) in the next Ubuntu release. It would be the best possible compromise and a situation where everybody wins.
<dholbach> Any questions about Upstreams, bug fixes and how to get fixes in?
<dholbach> Great, moving on then. :)
<dholbach> To fix a bug in Ubuntu, you would first get the source code for the package, then work on the fix, document it so it is easy to understand for other developers and users, then build the package to test it.
<dholbach> And the last bit is super important. We have a lot of automated tools to build, run some checks and people who review code, but with millions of users out there, it is important that you test your fixes.
<dholbach> After you have tested it, you can easily propose the change to be included in the current Ubuntu development release. A developer with upload rights will review it for you and then get it integrated into Ubuntu.
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: when you say build im guessing you mean on ones local machine?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, yes - I usually find it a lot easier to build a package locally than to upload it to a PPA (which of course is also an option)
<dholbach> there are tools, which I'll introduce in the next session, which make the task of building it locally very easy
<dholbach> especially during busy times you sometimes have to wait a few hours until your package is built in a PPA
<dholbach> so building locally is more convenient - also if you are working on the fix and go through many iterations of fixing, building, testing
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: is there a place beginning bug fixers can turn for mentoring so that they can learn about how to debug as well as getting new bug fixers used to the vast array of tools at their disposal
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, yes, I'll share some links later on
<dholbach> unfortunately we don't have dedicated 1-to-1 mentoring, because it turned out to be very very time-consuming, but we still have good documentation,  very friendly people who can help you out on IRC and will have bug fixing initiatives to get involved in this cycle :)
<dholbach> more links and info later on
<dholbach> The process I mentioned above (propose fix for inclusion, get it reviewed and uploaded by somebody with upload rights) is what we call 'sponsoring'
<dholbach> after you have worked with sponsors for a while and gained their trust, you can apply for upload rights yourself
<dholbach> When trying to find a solution for a bug, it is usually a good idea to check with Upstream and see if the problem (or a possible solution) is known already and, if not, do your best to make the solution a concerted effort.
<dholbach> This way we don't waste efforts and you'll get to learn from many other developers and make friends across projects.
<dholbach> If you are fixing bugs, additional steps might involve getting the change backported to an older, still supported version of Ubuntu and forwarding it to Upstream.
<dholbach> Any more questions about fixing bugs, upload rights, other projects, etc.?
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: What exactly does bug triaging mean and does it involve?
<dholbach> eagles0513875_, great question!
<dholbach> Triaging is a term that stems from the hospital world. It means that you try to understand the problem, categorise and classify it, so whoever works on the solution has all the relevant information in their hands.
<dholbach> so if you triage a bug, you want to make sure you understand which exact circumstances lead to the problem, how to reproduce it and maybe even where in the code to look for the problem
<dholbach> so bug triage and bug fixing goes hand in hand
<dholbach> the more you know in the beginning and the easier to find the bug (use tags and good title/description, links to upstream bug or bugs in other distributions), the easier to fix it
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: If a bug is for an end of life release of ubuntu is it safe to say that that bug can be closed?
<dholbach> yes, if an Ubuntu release reaches its end of life and it is not present in currently supported releases, we can safely close it
<dholbach> I usually get asked which requirements there are for getting involved in Ubuntu development
<dholbach> I'm surprised nobody asked up until now. :-)
<dholbach> So, the most important requirements for success in Ubuntu development are: having a knack for âmaking things work again,â not being afraid to read documentation and ask questions, being a team player and enjoying some detective work.
<dholbach> Good places to ask your questions are ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com and #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net. You will easily find a lot of new friends and people with the same passion that you have: making the world a better place by making better Open Source software.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> Any more general questions about Ubuntu development? Anything which wasn't clear enough before?
<ClassBot> eagles0513875_ asked: What exactly is the MOTU and what do they do? what is their purpose?
<dholbach> MOTU stands for "Masters of the Universe". :)
<dholbach> Developers with MOTU upload rights can upload packages to Universe and Multiverse
<dholbach> But MOTU is much much more than that
<dholbach> MOTU is not only people who are interested in *verse packages, but also a great place to get started with Ubuntu development - as I mentioned before: you can ask all kinds of questions there, with always somebody around to answer them
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: if they are the ones that push the packages to the repos. Could you clarify exactly what the developers channels are there for
<dholbach> erm
<dholbach> so anybody can propose new packages or fixes to packages to go into Ubuntu
<dholbach> you don't need upload rights for that
<dholbach> MOTU grants you specific upload rights, whereas core-dev would grant you upload rights to the whole archive, and you can get upload rights for specific packages or package sets as well
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> if there are no more immediate questions, I would suggest taking a 5 minute break before get our hands dirty
<dholbach> I need to get another cup of tea :)
<dholbach> <eagles0513875> QUESTION: what would classify a package for universe or multiverse repository? also would it be a good place to start in regards to upload rights for one once sufficient experience is gained, would it be good to start as an MOTU then progress to core-dev?
<dholbach> eagles0513875, all packages start in universe or multiverse, to get them into main or restricted, they need to get a special review, because being in main means they are supported for 18 months (or 5 years for LTS releases)
<dholbach> and yes, you can always apply for the upload rights you need and apply for more afterwards :)
<ClassBot> gau1991 asked: Being a developer is only task in Ubuntu?
<dholbach> good question :)
<dholbach> gau1991, No, development is not the only task in Ubuntu
<dholbach> for example can you contribute translations, artwork, help with documentation, advertise Ubuntu, give user support, help with bug reports, and so on
<dholbach> there are many many things to do in Ubuntu, you don't need to be a developer, if that's not your interest
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: when you say advertise ubuntu is there material for those to put on their website or give out etc?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development - fixing bugs - Instructors: dholbach
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dholbach> eagles0513875, yes, there's http://spreadubuntu.org/
<dholbach> alright - session 2
<dholbach> for everyone who just joined
<dholbach> in this channel we only have the presentation itself, if you have questions or want to chat a bit, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> if you have questions and want them answered in the session, please make sure you prefix them with QUESTION:
<dholbach> (in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<dholbach> For Session 2, I'll try to squeeze quite a bit of content in, so please let me know if I go too fast
<dholbach> in any case I'll share links to documentation later on, so you can read about everything in a bit more detail
<dholbach> Ok, first let's get set up for Ubuntu development
<dholbach> It is advisable to do packaging work using the current development version of Ubuntu. Doing so will allow you to test changes in the same environment where those changes will actually be applied and used.
<dholbach> Donât worry though, the Ubuntu development release wiki page shows a variety of ways to safely use the development release: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingDevelopmentReleases
<dholbach> even if you don't run 'quantal' (12.10) right now, you will still be able to follow the instructions here :-)
<dholbach> There are a number of tools that will make your life as an Ubuntu developer much easier. You will encounter these tools later in this guide. To install most of the tools you will need run this command:
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get install packaging-dev
<dholbach> This might take a while, but don't worry - you can always go back to the instructions
<dholbach> This command will install the following software:
<dholbach>  - gnupg â GNU Privacy Guard contains tools you will need to create a cryptographic key with which you will sign files you want to upload to Launchpad.
<dholbach>  - pbuilder â a tool to do a reproducible builds of a package in a clean and isolated environment.
<dholbach>  - ubuntu-dev-tools (and devscripts, a direct dependency) â a collection of tools that make many packaging tasks easier.
<dholbach>  - bzr-builddeb (and bzr, a dependency) â distributed version control with Bazaar, a new way of working with packages for Ubuntu that will make it easy for many developers to collaborate and work on the same code while keeping it trivial to merge each others work.
<dholbach>  - apt-file provides an easy way to find the binary package that contains a given file.
<dholbach>  - apt-cache (part of the apt package) provides even more information about packages on Ubuntu.
<dholbach> Any questions up until this point?
<ClassBot> gau1991 asked: can we use GIT or SVN?
<dholbach> gau1991, sure, and if you work with some upstream projects you will have to use whatever revision control system they use
<dholbach> bear in mind though that most of the Ubuntu development is done using Bazaar
<dholbach> Usually I include "how to set up your GPG key" and "how to set up your SSH key" and "how to set up your Launchpad account", but we don't immediately need them for the session, so I'll just give you some links instead
<dholbach> this way we should have a bit more time for questions and actually looking at fixing a bug
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: even though we are packaging are there any dbg packages that we would want to install before hand or do we install them depending on what we are working on?
<dholbach> eagles0513875, sure, we could install them, but I won't have time to discuss debugging program crashes for example in this session
<dholbach> you have a point though
<dholbach> if you work as a developer, you rarely just do "packaging", sometimes you will do "debugging" as well, or "fixing the build system" or "writing C code", etc
<dholbach> ok, here are the links for
<dholbach>  - setting up your Launchpad account: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/NewAccount
<dholbach>  - LP and your GPG key: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ImportingYourPGPKey
<dholbach>  - LP and your SSH key: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
<dholbach> but as I said earlier, you don't need to do this *right now* - later is fine :)
<dholbach> ok, moving on
<dholbach> if the package installation above succeeded, please run:
<dholbach>   pbuilder-dist <release> create
<dholbach> in our case, that'd be:
<dholbach>   pbuilder-dist quantal create
<dholbach> so we can work on the upcoming 12.10 release together
<dholbach> again running this command will take its time
<dholbach> it will set up a minimal environment in which builds are done
<dholbach> for that it will download a whole lot of packages, but the good thing is: everything is going to be cached
<dholbach> meanwhile, you can open another terminal and edit your ~/.bashrc file in there
<dholbach> somewhere around the end of it, please add something like this to it:
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME="Bob Dobbs"
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL="subgenius@example.com"
<dholbach> and please only use "Bob Dobbs" if that's your name :)
<dholbach> once you've done that, please save the file, leave the editor and run
<dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> (or simply restart your terminal)
<dholbach> How are we looking? Did that all work out for you? Any questions about the sense of all this? :)
<dholbach> <bobweaver> QUESTION the name and the email are the same for the packages we are going to be signing so they need to be the same as my gpg and email ?
<dholbach> bobweaver, yes, that will make things easier
<dholbach> although you can further specify the gpg key you'd like to use elsewhere
<dholbach> <eagles0513875> QUESTION: you mentioned with pbuilder we create  the packages for quantal but how does pbuilder know about quantal and all that?
<dholbach> eagles0513875, it knows through the 'debootstrap' package, which was included in precise through precise-updates :)
<dholbach> the great thing about pbuilder-dist is, that you can have multiple pbuilders for whatever release you want to build for
<dholbach> <nik90> QUESTION what does "pbuilder-dist quantal create" exactly do? Does it install all the development packages of quantal in my current ubuntu setup? Or should I do this in a 12.10 ubuntu setup?
<dholbach> nik90, great question
<dholbach> no, it merely builds a minimal Ubuntu chroot of that release
<dholbach> this will during builds be used as a basis merely - necessary packages for the build (build-dependencies) are installed for each and every build, but they are cached as well
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: what does a chroot do?
<dholbach> I would suggest having a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroot because it explains it in much more detail than I could and would have time for
<dholbach> for our purposes I guess it suffices to say that it is a minimal Ubuntu, in which the build is done which serves two (and maybe more) purposes: you can make sure that a build succeeds in a reliable and reproducible way (without you having tinkered around with files on the file system) and also you don't need to install all the build-dependencies on your local system
<dholbach> I was just informed of the following:
<dholbach> <Daekdroom> There's no debootstrap in -updates. I think he meant backports.
<dholbach> so, yes
<dholbach> there's a package in -backports
<dholbach> but there's also a new debootstrap in -proposed, which hasn't progressed to -updates yet
<dholbach> if you don't have -proposed or -backports enabled, don't despair
<dholbach> you can run this as well
<dholbach>   pbuilder-dist precise create
<dholbach> you will then just build the package for precise which will make no difference in our example here - the concept is always the same
<ClassBot> nik90 asked: How would you go about building a package locally without affecting the current setup (for example Unity) While building a newer version of Unity (potentially unstable) without affecting my stable Unity version?
<dholbach> nik90, there's a number of options: you can build the new version locally and install the resulting packages and roll back if things turn out to break
<dholbach> or you can set up a virtual machine and do the installation and testing in there
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingDevelopmentReleases has more information about other options you have (separate partitions, etc. etc.)
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: in regards to the last question could a chroot environment be used to test and run a newer unity version in?
<dholbach> eagles0513875, no, I personally wouldn't do that
<dholbach> you'd need to run an X server in the chroot, run dbus and all kinds of other services
<dholbach> a VM will get you up and running with much less pain
<dholbach> any more questions about tools, installation and stuff?
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: how do you know which tool is the right tool for the job?
<dholbach> eagles0513875, experience and advice from others ;-)
<dholbach> sorry, but to such a general question, I can only answer generally ;-)
<ClassBot> bobweaver asked: is it better to use a virtual envo for simple things like using python 3 instead of 2.7 ?
<dholbach> bobweaver, I'm not sure that's needed at all - Ubuntu makes it quite easy to have python3 and python2 installed and working at the same time
<dholbach> (maybe I'm missing something)
<dholbach> ok, let's get our hands dirty :)
<dholbach> I have a very cheesy first example, but will illustrate quite nicely what packaging is like and what we generally look at
<dholbach> we will for now imagine that we had received a bug report about the xicc package and that its description should read 'color' instead or 'colour', which of course would just get rejected
<dholbach> but anyway, let's do it :)
<dholbach> to get the source code of the package, please run
<dholbach>   bzr branch ubuntu:xicc
<dholbach> this will get a source package branch from Launchpad, so a branch which contains the source package for every change in Ubuntu as a revision
<dholbach> then please
<dholbach>   cd xicc
<dholbach> and open  debian/control  in your editor
<dholbach> those of you who have been in the session an hour ago might remember that I said something about source packages containing source and meta data
<dholbach> what we're looking at is meta data
<dholbach> the file has at least two stanzas
<dholbach> the first one is about the source package (name, section, maintainer, build-dependencies, etc.)
<dholbach> and the following stanzas (in our case, very simple: just one) describe the binary packages we build
<dholbach> so the package name, its dependencies, the description and which architectures it is built for
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: in regards to meta packages such as ubuntu-restricted-extras is that just including the meta data for all those packages like java flash etc
<dholbach> yes, meta packages don't contain much source code (just enough to create a binary package), but almost just meta data
<dholbach> they typically don't install any relevant files on the file system either
<dholbach> more questions about what we're currently looking at?
<ClassBot> eagles0513875 asked: in regards to meta packages such as ubuntu-restricted-extras is that just including the meta data for all those packages like java flash etc?
<dholbach> oops, we had that question already :)
<ClassBot> bobweaver asked: what is ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends} ?
<dholbach> good question!
<dholbach> ${shlibs:Depends} is a variable which will be substituted with names of packages which contain libraries the built libraries and binaries in our package are linked against
<dholbach> I'm sure this was a bit much, so let's have an example
<dholbach> if you run
<dholbach>   ldd /bin/ls
<dholbach> it will show you which libraries the binary /bin/ls is linked against
<dholbach> among others, there's libc.so.6
<dholbach> and if you check which packages coreutils (which contains /bin/ls among others) depends on, there's libc6 (where libc.so.6 is in)
<dholbach> if this was a bit fast: ${shlibs:Depends} will make sure compiled binaries/libraries in your package will have the libraries they need
<dholbach> ${misc:Depends} are additional packages which might be required by your package
<dholbach> let's say you have a gconf schema installed in your package
<dholbach> in that case ${misc:Depends} will be expanded, so you have gconf2 installed along with your package
<ClassBot> gau1991 asked: All libraries are shared????
<dholbach> there might be exceptions, but yes, libraries are shared
<dholbach> which makes things easier space- and security-wise
<dholbach> any more questions about debian/control?
<dholbach> alrightie, let's move on then
<dholbach> please go and replace 'colour' with 'color' wherever you find it - we want to fix that imaginary bug report :)
<dholbach> once you've done that, please save the file and run
<dholbach>   dch -i
<dholbach> this should launch an editor where you can enter a description of the change we just did
<dholbach> if you did everything correctly, it should list your name and email
<dholbach> if not, I'll give you a link to the docs later on, so you can fix it
<dholbach> in the changelog entry, I'll put something like
<dholbach>   * debian/control: replaced 'colour' with 'color'.
<dholbach> to indicate where I introduced the change and what specifically
<dholbach> if it were a real bug report we're looking at, we'd also document which bug it exactly was or where the discussion of the change happened
<dholbach> so if I get hit by a bus tomorrow somebody else will know why I did what I did
<dholbach> ... or if I myself should wonder about my reasoning 2 months later :)
<dholbach> once you're done, please run
<dholbach>   bzr bd -- -S
<dholbach> which will generate a new source package from your changes
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> (if you get a warning about 'Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address', please run 'update-maintainer' and try again)
<dholbach> now if this all succeeded, please
<dholbach>   cd ..
<dholbach> and you should find these files:
<dholbach> xicc_0.2-3ubuntu1.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-3ubuntu1.dsc  xicc_0.2-3ubuntu1_source.changes  xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> if you now run
<dholbach>   pbuilder-dist precise build xicc_0.2-3ubuntu1.dsc
<dholbach> (quantal should work too if that's what you used before)
<dholbach> it will build the updated package from source
<dholbach> <d-egg> Can I omit the signing for this test? It appears I'm not Bob Dobbs
<dholbach> haha, yes you can :)
<dholbach> just make sure you update your ~/.bashrc settings later on :)
<dholbach> ok, it seems we ran out of time, so we can't go through more examples
<dholbach> sorry about that
<dholbach> I just have a few more things I want to bring up before I'll go and answer all the remaining questions there are
<dholbach> Please go and bookmark http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/
<dholbach> it has all the information you need and everything we talked about here
<dholbach> ... and more
<dholbach> also I hope to see you in #ubuntu-motu where you can ask all further questions you might have
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> if you're on Twitter/Identi.ca/Facebook/Google+, please consider following @ubuntudev
<dholbach> this should keep you aware of upcoming sessions, bug fixing events and the like :)
<dholbach> let's see how many questions we still have left in the queue
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l84-p asked: What does the -- do in bd -- -S ?
<dholbach> good one
<dholbach> if you just run "bzr bd" it will build the package from the source locally (not in pbuilder)
<dholbach> (kind of like 'debuild' will do this for you in a regular source package)
<dholbach> if you add "--" you can add arguments like you normally would for 'debuild' or 'dpkg-buildpackage'
<dholbach> '-S' will generate a source package you can use with pbuilder or upload to a PPA
<dholbach> ok, if there are no more questions: I wish you all the best and thank you for being here
<dholbach> I hope to see more of you in the 12.10 cycle
<dholbach> let's make 'quantal' rock together!
<dholbach> next up is iheartubuntu with "Starting, Maintaining & Expanding Ubuntu Hours"
<dholbach> Big hugs everyone!
<iheartubuntu> Thanks dholbach... much appreciated with all you do
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Starting, Maintaining & Expanding Ubuntu Hours - Instructors: iheartubuntu - Slides: http://is.gd/Qnwq5N
<ClassBot> Slides for Starting, Maintaining & Expanding Ubuntu Hours: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/slides/ubuntu_hours-uow-p.pdf
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 1]
<iheartubuntu> Good Morning & Good Evening to all! My name is Dave and I have used Ubuntu as my only operating system for six years now.
<iheartubuntu> I enjoy Ubuntu and opening peoples eyes to this great free OS which includes an excellent community.
<iheartubuntu> This is why Im here today, to talk about Starting, Maintaining and Expanding Ubuntu Hours.
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 2]
<iheartubuntu> What is an Ubuntu Hour?
<iheartubuntu> Ubuntu Hours are simply a local public get together to help promote Ubuntu and it is easy to do.
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 3]
<iheartubuntu> Starting a new Ubuntu Hour
<iheartubuntu> Your first step is to locate like minded Ubuntu people online. Your Ubuntu loco team is a great place to start. http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<iheartubuntu> I recommend starting an Ubuntu Hour with at least one other person. It makes it more fun plus you have someone to talk to
<iheartubuntu> Work with that person or a group of people youve connected with and pick a public spot like a coffee shop or pizza place
<iheartubuntu> Try to find a central location in the area you want to have an Ubuntu Hour
<iheartubuntu> Select a regular schedule that you can commit to: try once a month or once every two weeks.
<iheartubuntu> From my experience... a regular schedule is key.
<iheartubuntu> It makes it so much easier to remember say.... the second tuesday of every month
<iheartubuntu> Get the word out by notifying the loco team mailing list, the ubuntu forums, a local LUG mailing list, twitter, facebook and linkedin
<iheartubuntu> Im not entirely sure, but I would think every Ubuntu loco team has its own mailing list. Its a great source of info and a great place to get the word out on events
<iheartubuntu> The Ubuntu forums is another good place to tell everyone http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=183
<iheartubuntu> LUGS are another great place to spread the word
<iheartubuntu> LUG stands for Linux User Group
<iheartubuntu> You can usually locate a LUG within an hour of where you live here in the states.
<iheartubuntu> I dont have a link offhand but search for a LUG near you by typing something like "san francisco lug" or "san francisco linux user group"
<iheartubuntu> fill in the name of your city or region when you do a search
<iheartubuntu> Social media is the perfect place to tell people about your new Ubuntu Hour
<iheartubuntu> Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn are great
<iheartubuntu> Try to bring your Ubuntu laptop and some burned Ubuntu CDs in case passerby ask about Ubuntu
<iheartubuntu> If you can, wear an Ubuntu t-shirt, lanyard or put an Ubuntu sticker on your computer
<iheartubuntu> When you show up and run an Ubuntu Hour, you agree to the Ubuntu Code of Conduct http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct
<iheartubuntu> In short... 'humanity towards others'
<iheartubuntu> You want to be friendly, courteous and cordial to all
<iheartubuntu> An Ubuntu Hour really isnt an advertisement and we are not pushing Ubuntu onto anyone. Its just people who like Ubuntu getting together.
<iheartubuntu> If anyone asks about Ubuntu you are more than happy to hand them a disc and talk about its merits. Even show them what it looks like if you brought your laptop
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 4]
<iheartubuntu> Maintaining Ubuntu Hours
<iheartubuntu> Ubuntu Hours are going to do well when it is something people look forward to.
<iheartubuntu> Enjoy your time together, grab something to eat, make it as relaxed and inviting as you can
<iheartubuntu> Talk about new features in Ubuntu, explain IRC to guests, work together to troubleshoot problems, and help new users
<iheartubuntu> Consider pairing your Ubuntu Hour on the same day as a local LUG meeting nearby
<iheartubuntu> I must say, this is a great piece of advice. My local Ubuntu Hour averages about 8 people each month since we hold it two blocks away from the local LUG meeting.
<iheartubuntu> Our Ubuntu Hour is an hour long, we all grab a coffee and have a good time
<iheartubuntu> Afterwards, we all head to the LUG meeting (linux user group)
<iheartubuntu> Follow through with a regular schedule so everyone knows when and where to show up
<iheartubuntu> Continue to spread the word about your Ubuntu Hour. consider posting flyers around a campus or coffee house like this one...
<iheartubuntu> http://ubuntuone.com/1KjvfdQFT6z6NXEsz1CdGa
<iheartubuntu> this is something i designed for our local Ubuntu Hour. You can make yours however you wish or copy this one and make changes
<iheartubuntu> There is a link to the PDF version and SVG version at the end of this slide show
<iheartubuntu> as you can see in the graphic, I touched on some quick points about Ubuntu, then gave a more descriptive text about Ubuntu and included a short weblink and a QR code to so people with smartphones on the go could find us easily
<iheartubuntu> i posted these all around a couple of local universities
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 5]
<iheartubuntu> Expanding Ubuntu Hours
<iheartubuntu> if you've enjoyed learning and chatting with others, try expanding
<iheartubuntu> see what worked and failed while setting up the first Ubuntu Hour
<iheartubuntu> pick a different part of town with easy access (bike, car, bus, train)
<iheartubuntu> Right now I'm considering an Ubuntu Hour at a central train station here in Los Angeles
<iheartubuntu> anyone want to help?? :)
<iheartubuntu> stagger the Ubuntu Hours on the calendar (maybe two weeks apart)
<iheartubuntu> so for example... we hold one ubuntu hour on the 2nd thursday of every month. maybe start another one in another location on the 4th thursday of the month
<iheartubuntu> if starting only one ubuntu hour is enough for you, hey thats OK... we all have jobs, families and life to attend to first
<iheartubuntu> continue to spread the power of the Ubuntu operating system and the message of âHumanity Towards Othersâ
<iheartubuntu> creating an Ubuntu Hour is fun and easy and most anyone can do it!
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 6}
<iheartubuntu> [Slide 6]
<iheartubuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/iheartubuntu
<iheartubuntu> That wraps this up. There are links to this PDF slideshow and example of the flyer in both PDG and SVG formats
<iheartubuntu> Im here for the next 30 min for any questions or brainstorming Ubuntu Hours. It really is great fun to get one started
<iheartubuntu> Ubunut Hours are a great place to network and build friendships as well
<iheartubuntu> *Ubuntu
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: What if no one shows up?
<iheartubuntu> If nobody shows up, you can relish in the blueberry muffin and iced latte with whip cream on top as you surf the web on your Ubuntu computer
<iheartubuntu> :)
<iheartubuntu> Having a few Ubuntu CDs to hand out is a simple way to spread the word
<iheartubuntu> You can order packs of Ubuntu CDs from the Ubuntu Store here: http://shop.ubuntu.com/
<iheartubuntu> Or like most people do, they burn discs and bring with them
<ClassBot> bobweaver asked: when dealing with smaller shops that you are giving live cd's too where is the best place too get docs for ubuntu support ?
<iheartubuntu> Having an Ubuntu lanyard  or some official Ubuntu discs in my experience gets people talking to you.
<iheartubuntu> I would first direct them to the Ubuntu website. From there they can find all sorts of help. From free community support like the forums to paid support from Canonical
<iheartubuntu> I always stress the importance of the forums and also recommend Ask Ubuntu http://www.askubuntu.com
<iheartubuntu> Ask Ubuntu is great for quick answers and whats nice you too can contribute to Ask Ubuntu once your knowledge grows
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: Have you ever used sites like spreadubuntu.org to find information and things to give out at Ubuntu Hours?
<iheartubuntu> In fact I have used Spread Ubuntu. Its a great website with graphics and more for spreading Ubuntu
<iheartubuntu> there are cd labels you can download from there and print out
<iheartubuntu> posters, flyers, you name it
<iheartubuntu> Im here answering any questions you might have about setting up and maintaining Ubuntu Hours. Feel free to ask questions
<iheartubuntu> The PDF for this slide show "Starting Maintaining and Expanding Ubuntu Hours" can be found here: http://ubuntuone.com/0XMCTRVPFeAU9tiQOFah2C
<ClassBot> quixotedon asked: I found out that in my country, people are more used to meet online not offline, any suggestion??
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<iheartubuntu> Meeting online is still a great place
<iheartubuntu> You can meet up at any time online, dont need to get dressed, dont need to spend money on travel or food. It still works quite well
<iheartubuntu> And you can create a virtual Ubuntu Hour in much the same way as a traditional one
<iheartubuntu> Instead of an actual location, direct people to your loco team IRC chat room for example
<iheartubuntu> In fact.... Ubuntu loco team IRC chats are 24 hour 7 days a week non stop Ubuntu Hours really
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<iheartubuntu> you can pop in to an IRC at any time, leave at any time. ask questions, answer questions, have a good time. Its not much different than a meet up Ubuntu Hour
<iheartubuntu> Before my time is up here, I'd like to recommend the Lernid program that you can install from the Ubuntu Software Center
<iheartubuntu> Lernid is a great little program for accessing these Ubuntu classes
<iheartubuntu> In one app, it nicely features the classroom talk, the classroom chat as well as every time the instructor pastes a link the Lernid program will show the link
<iheartubuntu> every time there is a new slide in the slideshow (if a slideshow is available) it will advance to the next slide. It really is a handy program and makes the learning experience even more enjoyable
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Brainstorm - great ideas to improve Ubuntu - Instructors: cheesehead
 * Cheesehead taps the microphone
<Cheesehead> Hello.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<Cheesehead> iheartubuntu: Thanks for a great session on Ubuntu Hours!
<Cheesehead> My name is Ian Weisser, and I am here to talk about Brainstorm: Great ideas to improve Ubuntu
<Cheesehead> Feel free to throw some questions out in #ubuntu-classroom-chat (QUESTION: ) while I talk a moment about Brainstorm and it's place in the Ubuntu community.
<Cheesehead> I promise this will be short...
<Cheesehead> Ubuntu Brainstorm ( http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com ) is a place for people to post their ideas about Ubuntu.
<Cheesehead> They can be promoted/demoted, and the most popular are reviewed by the Ubuntu developers.
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm is one of the many good ways to contribute to the Ubuntu community.
 * Cheesehead pauses for breath
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm opened in February 2008.
<Cheesehead> Way back then, there was a lot of grumbling in the community. Users grumbled that their feedback was ignored. Developers grumbled that feedback was swamping them.
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm was one of many solutions to address those issues. Other solutions have appeared since, and more solutions appear (and disappear) every cycle.
<Cheesehead> That's healthy. A vibrant community is supposed to try lots of new things.
<Cheesehead> That's the end of the history lesson.
<Cheesehead>  
<Cheesehead> So, you have identified an improvement. What do you do? Where do you go?
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm exists to help you figure out those two questions.
<Cheesehead> Quite honestly...
 * Cheesehead glances from side to side and lowers his voice
<Cheesehead> ...usually the best way to get an idea implemented is to get involved with the appropriate team or project.
<Cheesehead> People tend to listen to those they associate with (and therefore trust) more than strangers. Developers are people. If you want your idea to get attention, be involved instead of a stranger.
<Cheesehead> If there is no appropriate team...well, the idea is probably appropriate for Brainstorm.
<Cheesehead>  
<Cheesehead> There we go. 55 minutes for questions...
 * Cheesehead gets prodded to say more
<Cheesehead> We currently receive about 6,000 ideas a year.
<Cheesehead> That's a lot.
<Cheesehead> We currently receive about 6,000 ideas a year.
<Cheesehead> Wait...I said that
<Cheesehead> Every idea goes through a review-and-approval before opening to votes.
<Cheesehead> That review-and-approval process is really important - I'll talk more about that in few minutes.
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââdoes anything ever get implemented from Brainstorm?
<Cheesehead> Ah, the real question everyone wants to know!
<Cheesehead> The answer is: Yes...but
<Cheesehead> If you look through old ideas, many have since been implemented.
<Cheesehead> Some implemented directly as a result of the Brainstorm Idea
<Cheesehead> Others along a parallel path becasue great-minds-think-alike
<Cheesehead> Others becasue the project already planned to do it
<Cheesehead> And some are oblique...
<Cheesehead> Three years ago, we had a flood of "Improve Gnome2" ideas
<Cheesehead> Well, now we have Unity, which was designed to improve upon Gnome2
<Cheesehead> Does that mean some of those ideas count as implemented by Unity?
<Cheesehead> Some yes, some no.
<Cheesehead> .
<Cheesehead> Now for the *other* real question everyone wants to know:
<Cheesehead> "Will MY idea get implemented?"
<Cheesehead> Remeber those 6000 ideas each year?
<Cheesehead> Around 600-700 ideas will be opened to votes and comments this year.
<Cheesehead> Finally, the top 20 ideas get reviewed by the Ubuntu Technical Board (UTB). 10 every six months.
<Cheesehead> At first glance, a 3% selection rate by UTB doesn't seem great.
<Cheesehead> But remember, that's just *one* avenue for getting the idea implemented! (The one that publishes results).
<Cheesehead> Also, remember that Brainstorm may not be the best venue for your idea if an existing team or project already covers that subject.
<Cheesehead> You can pretty much bank on the UTB not picking up anything that a subordinate team handles
<Cheesehead> Or that an upstream project handles.
<Cheesehead> But that team might pick it up separately, or that project might.
<Cheesehead> And you can really improve your chances by...not being a stranger to them.
 * Cheesehead sees that there is a theme here
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââWhat other interesting statistics can you provide regarding Ubuntu Brainstorm?
<Cheesehead> Whoa...there are two of you?
<Cheesehead> That 6000 -> 600 -> 20 is really the key. It tells half of the important story.
<Cheesehead> "The important story" is, of course, "How do I get MY ideas implemented"
<Cheesehead> If you're a stranger and rely upon Brainstorm to prod other community members into doing things for you...then your chance of success is low.
<Cheesehead> There simply isn't a roomfull of coding monkey sitting around, waiting to start jamming on the next idea.
<Cheesehead> Doesn't exist. I wish it did, but it doesn't.
<Cheesehead> (And their code quality would be awful anyway. Every time I ask a roomful of monkeys to produce anything they just fling feces at me and type a lot of Shakespeare)
<Cheesehead> We've had over 200,000 ideas since 2008...although that's actually a quite misleading statistic.
<Cheesehead> We've had over 200,000 submissions, but of course 90% of those are bugs, rants, and other non-ideas.
<Cheesehead> Much of what we do is help point users toward the bug tracker or other appropriate venues.
<Cheesehead> If you're not sure if it's a bug, go ahead and posit it on Brainstorm. When we close a bug, we're nice about it.
 * Cheesehead checks the scrollback
<Cheesehead> Well, it bears repeating: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââWill Ubuntu Brainstorm get the new fresh website look soon? It still feels like 2008
<Cheesehead> Well, 2008 wasn't so long ago.
<Cheesehead> I've been driving the same car for 14 years. 2008 was just 4 years ago.
<Cheesehead> I have stale food wrappers in that car older than that...
 * Cheesehead does *not* really have a trashed car
<Cheesehead> The real answer:
<Cheesehead> If a volunteer wants to come on board and renovate the appearance of our Drupal module, they are wholly welcome.
<Cheesehead> In other words, I'm unlikely to do it, nor are any of the current volunteers.
<ClassBot> JacobS asked: How often is Brainstorm checked by developers?\
<Cheesehead> Various teams and projects: Fairly often...though they don't check in with us.
<Cheesehead> If you're *not* a developer, but involved with a team or project, you can always liason between Brainstorm and the project.
<Cheesehead> More communication tends to make everyone involved happier.
<Cheesehead> The top 20 ideas get reviewed by the Ubuntu Technical Board (UTB). 10 every six months.
<Cheesehead> Remember that Ubuntu is NOT a top-down hierarchy, and implementing Ideas is not the UTB's job anyway.
<Cheesehead> And 'Reviewed' by developers is not a guarantee of implementation. They may take pieces of it, or reject it outright.
<Cheesehead> One of the more common responses from Developers in 2009-2010 was "Hey, that's a great idea. You should work on that."
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: is the code for the drupal module available somewhere (launchpad?) if a volunteer did want to update the look?
<Cheesehead> Ooh, great question. There's a link to the Ideatorrent code at the bottom of every Brainstorm page.
<Cheesehead> If you want to revamp the live version currently running on Canonical's servers, then of course you'll need to build a test version first from Ideatorrent.
<ClassBot> JacobS asked: And how hard is it to get rights to edit it?
<Cheesehead> To build a test version? You have rights to it now. Everyone in the world does.
<Cheesehead> To upload the stable version up to Canonical? That's my decision, generally.
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: Is the current theme available somewhere too?
<Cheesehead> The current theme should be part of the module.
<Cheesehead> If it's missing or different, please let me know...becasue that means the elves have been busy again and I'll need to spray for that.
<Cheesehead> .
 * Cheesehead thinks it's time to change the subject to UNITY
<Cheesehead> We get a lot of Unity ideas.
<Cheesehead> I'll say that again:
<Cheesehead> We get a lot of Unity ideas.
<Cheesehead> Two years ago it was Gnome ideas
<Cheesehead> Three years ago is was printing and audio
<Cheesehead> Two years from now it will be something different.
<Cheesehead> But Today it's Unity Ideas.
<Cheesehead> How can you improve Unity using Brainstorm?
<Cheesehead> (drumroll)
<Cheesehead> Answer: Get involved with Unity development and design.
<Cheesehead> A very good explanation of how to get involved is at
<Cheesehead> http://design.canonical.com/2012/02/the-unity-design-process-and-how-you-can-play-a-part-in-it/ .
<Cheesehead> This is one of those examples where an existing team is already covering the territory.
<Cheesehead> In this case, sending the idea to Brainstorm is sidetracking it.
<Cheesehead> Like complaining to the mail carrier about your water bill.
<Cheesehead> Sure, she carried the bill to you...but why not just ring the water company to discuss it directly?
<Cheesehead> .
<Cheesehead> So the next obvious question is....
<Cheesehead> "If everything should go directly to the owning team or project, then what's left for Brainstorm?"
<Cheesehead> "Yeah, cheesehead, what good is it?"
<Cheesehead> Whoa, everyone calm down
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm gets about 600 of those leftover ideas each year.
<Cheesehead> There's not a team or project for everything.
<Cheesehead> Not yet...
<Cheesehead> And for those multidisciplinary or conceptual or miscellaneous ideas, Brainstorm is waiting.
<Cheesehead> Far out, man.
<ClassBot> JacobS asked: So then were are we able to discus directly with the teams that are designing Unity?
<Cheesehead> First, realize that to talk effectively to them, you must speak their jargon.
<Cheesehead> http://design.canonical.com/2012/02/the-unity-design-process-and-how-you-can-play-a-part-in-it/ tells you the structure they use.
<Cheesehead> If you don't use it, they may be less inclined to listen.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
 * Cheesehead shakes his fist at Classbot, then changes his mind and embraces Classbot.
<Cheesehead> Unity is a big, professionally-managed project with a lot of moving pieces.
<Cheesehead> If you think their communications are hard to parse...then perhaps they need volunteer help to get the word out, to liason more with the community, to translate between our jargon and their jargon.
<Cheesehead> Or there may be better solutions...
<Cheesehead> Or that may not be the problem at all.
<Cheesehead> Much of what we do in Brainstorm is cahllenge the assumptions of a problem.
<Cheesehead> challenge, even.
<Cheesehead> For example, seven or eight times a year, we'll get an idea that "The reason Ubuntu hasn't taken off in <market> is becasue of the lack of ,killer app>"
<Cheesehead> And this is often demonstrably false.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Cheesehead> Mom! ClassBot is teasing me again!
<Cheesehead> Anyway, if we can knock false assumptions out of a problem, we can help the submitter determine if it's really a problem at all.
<Cheesehead> Or worth solving.
<Cheesehead> Generally, the result is a stronger, better Idea.
 * Cheesehead takes a canape from the snack cart
<Cheesehead> Pending any further questions, thanks everyone for participating. We'll pick up tomorrow at 1300 UTC with jokerdino's session on How To Use AskUbuntu.
 * Cheesehead waves adieu
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/03/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<StanleyPTP> ?
<ryde> hello
<ryde> what are ppls thoughts on the new version of ubuntu and deploying it ina  work environment?
<crep4ever> Hi, is this too late for people talking about how to submit apps on ubuntu software center ?
<Daekdroom>  /topic
<Daekdroom> Oops
<Daekdroom> crep4ever, the log is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<crep4ever> thanks a lot
<crep4ever> much appreciated
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-04
<amithkk> Hello?
<amithkk> There's been a change in presenters
<amithkk> I will probably be doing the Ask Ubuntu Session at 13:00
<amithkk> <start>
<jrgifford> jokerdino: is it time then?
<jokerdino> 10 minuts to go
<amithkk> uh
<amithkk> We're not voiced
<jokerdino> backstage both of you
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to use Ask Ubuntu - Instructors: jokerdino
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jrgifford> Hello everyone!
<jrgifford> I'm James Gifford, a community elected moderator of Ask Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com) and today I'll outlining different, less known ways, to get the most out of Ask Ubuntu.
<jrgifford> With me today I have amithkk and jokerdino, two of Ask Ubuntu's more active users - they'll be in #ubuntu-classroom-chat answering questions and stuff as well.
<jrgifford> Ask Ubuntu is unlike most other community support sites available today, because it operates on a very narrow scope - that is, Ask Questions, Get Answers.
<jrgifford> In that respect, items on the site, unlike in IRC or Forums, are not threaded. Instead they're sorted by votes - which is probably the biggest change for anyone who is used to a linear chat like forums, mailing lists and IRC.
<jrgifford> So I'm going to be jumping around on a lot of topics in this session, so if you have any questions please, go ahead and ask in the questions room.
<jrgifford> So, finding solutions to a problem you have. If you land on the site looking for an answer to a question there are a few ways to get solutions
<jrgifford> The primary method is searching - at the top of the site there's a search bar for entering in search terms.
<jrgifford> Generally speaking, typing the question in that bar will yield the results you're looking for, but wadding through the results can be somewhat tedious, particularly if it's a rather popular subject like unity or ATI cards.
<jrgifford> The search offers different methods to help narrow the scope of your search. Say you want to figure out how to configure Unity.
<jrgifford> you *could* type in "How do I configure unity?", and what you're looking for is going to probably be 4-5 results down the first page.
<jrgifford> but, you could narrow the scope a little bit, by searching for 'configure [unity]', and it will search for 'configure' in the unity tag.
<jrgifford> So, what are tags?
<jrgifford> tags are used on the site to organize what subjects the content of the questions are related to.
<jrgifford> so if i have a problem with a broadcom wireless card, i'd tag it with [broadcom], not [intel].
<jrgifford> Each question has at least one tag with a maximum of 5.
<jrgifford> and if you're asking a question about a specific version of ubuntu, you would tag it with [11.10] or [12.04] - so going back to the broadcom example, our tags might look like [12.04] [broadcom]
<jrgifford> this helps not only sort the content of the site, but lets people know exactly what they're dealing with when reviewing your question.  :)
<jrgifford> Another method for finding a solution to your question, is to simply ask it!
<jrgifford> At the top of the site there's an "Ask Question" button, which will allow you to type the subject, or title, of your question, a body, and tag the question.
<jrgifford> For an effective question, try to make the title as short, sweet and to the point as possible. If your internet isn't working, don't enter something like "Internet broken, help! :(" as there isn't much that I can figure out from that question in that title.
<jrgifford> Try to include a brief summary instead: "Wireless Broadcom BCM43xx not connecting"
<jrgifford> That way, it'll catch the eye of people who actually understand that issue, as opposed to it possibly being glazed over because the title is just too vague.
<jrgifford> You'll also want to avoid adding things like "on Ubuntu", or "on 10.04" in the title. We already know it's with Ubuntu, since you're on Ask Ubuntu! :D
<jrgifford> Likewise, if it is actually something version specific (like say, your wireless card used to work in 11.10 but doesn't in 12.04), you can use the tags to help convey that information as it will help the taxonomy and for users searching.
<jrgifford> After you type in your title the site will automatically give you a list of potential other questions that have been asked that match that criteria. I've found what I'm looking for on more than on occasion by looking at those questions closely - they actually are fairly accurate, sometimes better than the built-in search.
<jrgifford> After you've entered a title, body, tags, and double checked to make sure that your question hasn't been asked anywhere else - you can submit your question to the site.
<jrgifford> !Q
<ClassBot> MrChrisDruif asked: why don't you have to add the version? Do you mean avoid it in the title and use a tag or ... ?
<amithkk> No
<jrgifford> Good question. So we avoid it in the title, but as jokerdino and amithkk mentioned in the -chat channel, the tags come first.
<amithkk> !yes
<jrgifford> so we add the version number as a tag, not as the title.
<jrgifford> I'm going to go and jump over to a few ways the site works differently than say, the other support outlets. When you're using the site we try to avoid too much pointless discussion that doesn't really contribute to the end goal of solving the question/problem at hand. It's all about questions, and answers. :)
<jrgifford> So you won't see many people replying "Thanks" or "this worked" or editing the question to say "solved", etc.
<jrgifford> Instead to show your support of a solution, or question, you can use the arrows to vote an answer up or down.
<jrgifford> For instance, if you come across a question that has yet to be answered and like, or agree, or are experiencing that same issue. You can use the Up Arrow to vote that question up.
<jrgifford> Likewise, if there is a solution on that question that works for you - you can use the up arrows to communicate to everyone "This works for me!", the more upvotes an answer has, the higher up the list of answers it goes.
<jrgifford> That way, the first answer you see on a question isn't necessarily the first person to answer, but instead the one that has the most upvotes by other users like you who have either tested or agree it addresses (answers) the question.
<jrgifford> In the event something doesn't work, or is a solution you do not agree with you can always down vote that answer.
<amithkk> But whenever applicable leave a comment explaining why you downvoted
<jrgifford> That being said, it's encouraged that if you do downvote an answer, you leave a comment on that answer to explain why it was downvoted, and what the user could do to improve it. Something that really irks a lot of people is getting a answer downvoted for no explained reason - it's annoying if it's getting downvoted, and you don't know why (and therefore can't fix it!)
<jrgifford> Finally, if you are the person who asked this question - and the solution works for you - you can use the "Accept Answer" button to show that this answer is the best provided and works for you.
<jrgifford> Since I've been going on about voting, it's about time I explain exactly what voting does for users, and why's its such a "important" part of the site.
<jrgifford> On Ask Ubuntu a user gain, or loses, reputation based on a number of things - votes are one of them.
<jrgifford> Reputation is a lot like Karma on Launchpad only you gain it by using the site and having users up/down vote your content. Also, it doesn't evaporate over time.
<jrgifford> You can also gain reputation in a few other manners - one such way is via a Bounty.
<jrgifford> Bounties are a way to get a little extra attention to a question. Especially if you have a vested interest in an answer - in other words, it's in your interests to get this question answered as well - i generally do that when I have a issue with my wireless card or whatever, and someone already asked the question and is looking for an answer
<jrgifford> Anyone can place a bounty on a question and offer between 50 and 500 of your own reputation to anyone who can answer the question in 7 days, and also give you an answer that solves your/the other users problem.
<jrgifford> So in some respects, reputation is almost like a currency where you can send some of your reputation to the person who can provide the best solution to the question.
<jrgifford> This also makes the question a featured question on the site: http://askubuntu.com/?tab=featured where it has it's own tab on the home page to highlight all the questions that have an open bounty.
<amithkk> But the Bountier must award the bounty
<jrgifford> it also gets tweeted on the twitter feed, and soon it will get blogged on the ubuntu planet as well.
<jrgifford> amithkk is right, whoever starts the bounty has to award the bounty, otherwise it evaporates, and you'll never see the reputation again. to be honest, it's a bit of a gamble
<jrgifford> So, lets move on to the topic of duplicate questions.
<jrgifford> Answering a question with the same answer over and over again doesn't to much help to the question or the quality of that question. If something happens, and it changes, it's much easier to update it in one place instead of in 30 answers.
<jrgifford> also, what happens from occasionally is that someone may beat you to "the punch" with an answer. The site will load a banner as you're answering - which warns you "HEY! Someone has just posted an answer - want to see it?"
<jrgifford> then the other answer will load, and you can decide if your answer will add anything.
<jrgifford> So if someone posts a one line answer like "Oh just edit the xorg file, then reboot" that really is not a good choice for a high quality answer, well written answer.
<amithkk> But Don't go posting the answer if it has little to add the existing one
<jrgifford> If you can provide a greater answer with more quality then I say go for it. People will usually gravitate and upvote the answer with higher quality.
<jrgifford> So, you've gained all this reputation - now what do i do with it?
<jrgifford> Ask Ubuntu is shaped like a pyramid - at the bottom, you have all the new users who have come to the site, perhaps just once via a search engine, found the answer and left.
<jrgifford> The next smaller level are those who have bothered to create an account, maybe ask a question or give a few answers. More or less they maybe come, hang out for a little, then leave for about 6-8 months until they have another problem that is in need of solving.
<jrgifford> So far, all of these users are great -they're what we run the site for - that is, keeping an up-to-date repository of questions, and valid answers.
<jrgifford> The more you vote, the more you edit, the more quality answers and questions you provide - the higher your reputation. The more reputation you gain the more tools Ask Ubuntu gives you. Things like editing without needing community approval, voting to close questions as off-topic, duplicates etc, and a variety of other tools outlined over here : http://askubuntu.com/privileges.
<amithkk> !Q
<jrgifford> The higher your reputation, the higher up the pyramid you go, which in turn provides you more access and privileges on the site.
<ClassBot> amithkk asked: Can I ever loose the privilege to ask questions on Ask Ubuntu
<jrgifford> Good question. The short answer is: No, except for some extraordinary cases.
<jrgifford> The long answer is that if you consistently contribute low-quality questions and answers, as well as being rude, snide comments etc, then the system might do a automatic question ban. however, i've only seen one or two of those in the past year, so it's not that big of an issue if you contribute high quality stuff.
<jrgifford> So I'm going to hand it off to amithkk while he talks about editing, and what that consists of.
<amithkk> So, jrgifford has spoken a lot about editing, and I want to go over what that entails. Anyone, at anytime, can edit any question or answer on the site.	
<amithkk> If you don't like this concept - Ask Ubuntu may not be the best place for you. However, it isn't just a limited reign of chaos with users editing in funny text.
<amithkk> All users with less than 2,000 reputation have to have their edits approved. The trade off is - if your edit is approved, the site awards your 2 points of reputation for having to wait for making something more awesome.
<amithkk> However, after 2k, you stop getting this +2 for each edit
<amithkk> Furthermore, all edits on the site are tracked, similar to Wikipedia, in that who edited it, when they edited it, and what was edited is logged.
<amithkk> At anytime a revision can be rolled back. This helps ensure if something malicious or invalid gets past the site's review it can be reverted at anytime
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<amithkk> No reverted or denied edits make you lose rep
<jrgifford> Ok, since we've only got another 10 minutes, are there any closing questions?
<amithkk> I'm handing the session back to jrgifford to wrap it up.
<jrgifford> thanks for talking about editing amithkk! :)
<jrgifford> I know I've gone over a lot of different things, and jumped around quite a bit, but to be honest the best way to experience the site is to signup and start browsing! http://askubuntu.com/users/login - since the site uses OpenID you can use your LaunchPad, Google, Ubuntu, or any other SSO/OpenID login to access the site.
<jrgifford> If you have any questions about how the site works, you can visit our http://askubuntu.com/faq , our http://askubuntu.com/about , or ask a question about Ask Ubuntu itself on the "META" site http://meta.askubuntu.com/, where we talk about the various questions that we get about the site, like how it works, how to handle certain kinds of situations, etc
<ClassBot> gau1991 asked: What if i doesn't get answer to my q?
<jrgifford> good question gau1991. you can bounty your question, edit it with updates on what you've tried, and sooner or later you should get an answer.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> gau1991 asked: Bounty is rewarded by askubuntu or by us?
<jrgifford> Ask Ubuntu has it's own web based chat system that is persistent and works quite well (http://chat.askubuntu.com). Feel free to join us after you've gained 20 reputation points in the various rooms/channels there. mainly, there is the regulators room where we communicate about how to handle closing/editing/cleaning questions and answers, and there is the general room which is a little like #ubuntu
<jrgifford> -offtopic, but we're mainly ontopic most of the time.
<amithkk> by you or any other user which requires it gau1991
<jokerdino> gau1991: it usually is rewarded by the one who set the bounty. If he fails to explicitly award the bounty, the system has a set of rules on who to award the bounty to.
<jrgifford> Also, since we've got only a few more minutes, I'd just like to point everyone to this meta post (which is more ro less a FAQ list): http://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/257/how-does-ask-ubuntu-work
<jrgifford> and then finally, i'd like to thank everyone for their time, and I hope to see you around Ask Ubuntu, chat and meta! :)
 * jokerdino thanks everyone for attending our Ask Ubuntu lesson
<jokerdino> See you around again!
 * amithkk thanks from my side too
<amithkk> We hope you found it informational
<jrgifford> thanks again everyone!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to contribute translating Ubuntu - Instructors: dpm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dpm> hey everyone!
<dpm> thanks amithkk, jokerdino and jrgifford for the great session
<dpm> All right then, time for some Ubuntu translations ;)
<dpm> I prepared a series of slides for the session, which you'll find here and should make it easier for you to follow along:
<dpm> http://ubuntuone.com/2BO0P9Vt1Pp40dhiXXHnZv
<dpm> I'll be posting [SLIDE n] comments before each section of the talk, which should help you knowing which slide I'm taling about each time.
<dpm> so anyway...
<dpm> let's roll
<dpm> [SLIDE 1]
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator in Canonical, in the Community team
<dpm> there I have the pleasure to work with Ubuntu legends such as Nicholas Skaggs, Michael Hall, Jorge Castro, Daniel Holbach, and least but not last
<dpm> our fearless leader Jono Bacon
<dpm> Most importantly, I have the immense privilege to work with the Ubuntu Translations community
<dpm> So be very welcome to this session on Ubuntu Translations, where we'll see:
<dpm>  - How Ubuntu can be translated into almost any language,
<dpm>  - The work of our awesome translation teams,
<dpm>  - How Launchpad can be used to translate Ubuntu in a distributed manner,
<dpm>  - And how to get started translating Ubuntu
<dpm> If you've got any questions at any point during the talk, please ask them on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel
<dpm> and remember to prepend them with QUESTION
<dpm> in any  case, I'll leave some time near the end for questions
<dpm> so without further ado...
<dpm> [SLIDE 2]
<dpm> Benvinguts, Willkommen, Bienvenidos, ãããã, Welcome, íìí©ëë¤, Bem-vindo, Ongietorri, à¦¸à§à¦¬à¦¾à¦à¦¤à¦®, Welkom, MirÃ« se erdhÃ«t, BienllegÃ¡u, á¥áá³á á°áá áá¡, ÐÑÑÐ°ÐµÐ¼, ÙØ±Ø­Ø¨Ø§, Dobro doÅ¡li, Donedigezh vat, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐµ Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, æ­¡è¿, DobrodoÅ¡li, æ¬¢è¿, Velkommen, Welkom, Bonvenon, Tere tulemast, Tervetuloa, Bienvenue, Wolkom, Benvido, ÎÎ±Î»ÏÏ Î®ÏÎ¸Î±ÏÎµ, ××¨×××× ×××××, ÃdvÃ¶zÃ¶ljÃ¼k, Ve
<dpm> lkomin, Selamat Datang, Benvenuti, à²¸à³à²¸à³à²µà²¾à²à²¤, WitÃ´j, ÒÐ¾Ñ ÐºÐµÐ»Ð´ÑÒ£ÑÐ·, Esiet sveicinÄti, Sveiki, Selamat Datang, à¤¸à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤à¤¤à¤®à¥, Velkomen, Benvenguda, Witamy, Bun venit, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°ÑÑ, ÐÐ¾Ð±ÑÐ¾Ð´Ð¾ÑÐ»Ð¸, Vitajte, VÃ¤lkommen, à®¨à®²à¯à®µà®°à®µà¯, à¸¢à¸´à¸à¸à¸µà¸à¹à¸­à¸à¸£à¸±à¸, HoÅgeldiniz, ÐÐ°ÑÐºÐ°Ð²Ð¾ Ð¿ÑÐ¾ÑÐ¸Ð¼Ð¾, Ø®ÙØ´ Ø¢ÙØ¯ÛØ¯, ChÃ o má»«ng, ÙÛØ±Ú¾Ø§Ø¨Ø§ !!!
<dpm> (if I've forgotten to welcome in your language, do write a big "welcome" in #ubuntu-classroom chat, and I'll include it here too :)
<dpm> Ubuntu has a very diverse community, and one of the aspects this diversity is directly reflected is in the number of languages it is translated into,
<dpm> and the communities built around them.
<dpm> [SLIDE 3]
<dpm> "Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice" lies at the very core of the Ubuntu philosophy
<dpm> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
<dpm> which is why we encourage the creation of translation communities and provide them resources to ease the process of translation into their own language
<dpm> so that anyone, without requiring advanced technical skills, can start contributing from day one.
<dpm> So let's try to answer some basic questions...
<dpm> [SLIDE 4]
<dpm>  
<dpm> Who translates Ubuntu?
<dpm> ----------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> That's an easy one: Ubuntu Translators.
<dpm> They are volunteers who organise themselves in translation teams, appointed to be responsible for the translation of a given language.
<dpm> And they just rock
<dpm> oops, xchat-gnome crash
<dpm> but I'm back again
<dpm> oh, btw, phanimahesh sends a welcome in Telugu à°¸à±à°¸à±à°µà°¾à°à°¤à°®à±
<dpm> and in Hindi à¤à¤ªà¤à¤¾ à¤¸à¥à¤µà¤¾à¤à¤¤ à¤¹à¥
<dpm> another display of translations community awesomeness on the spot
<dpm> anyway, we were talking about Ubuntu Translators
<dpm> You can see the full list of Ubuntu translation teams here:
<dpm>  https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> We've currently got about 150, of more than 200 registered languages for Ubuntu in Launchpad, our online translation tool
<dpm> So if there isn't an Ubuntu translation team for your language, now is the chance to create one :)
<dpm> More on that later
<dpm> Also very important to mention is the work of upstream translators, whose effort Ubuntu benefits greatly from.
<dpm> Ubuntu includes the best-of-breed Open Source software of the many independent projects available, which is what we call upstream.
<dpm> Translations are no exception, and if these upstream projects are translated outside of Ubuntu, we import and use the awesome work of upstream translators
<dpm> Let's see some numbers about our amazing translations community:
<dpm> nearly 18.000 translators who've submitted at least one translation,
<dpm> coming from more than 240 countries.
<dpm> A default Ubuntu installation contains about 160.000 translatable messages,
<dpm> which can go up to 475.000 when adding non-default apps such as GIMP, Inkscape, etc.
<dpm> And here's an overview of how well translated Ubuntu 12.04 LTS is in each language: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/ubuntu-12.04-translation-stats.html
<dpm> So you see that there's a lot of work to do, and _you_ can help in making Ubuntu better supported in your language.
<dpm> Let's see how...
<dpm> oh, but before we go on, are there any questions so far?
<ClassBot> rigved asked: what is the recommended way to setup multi-language input methods? For example, I would like to type in English as well as another language (say German).
<dpm> It all depends on the languages you choose, and if they require an input method
<dpm> The important thing to remember is to always use the language selector to install new languages
<dpm> which should take care of installing all necessary language support and aids
<dpm> you can do it from the system settings menu
<dpm> or invoking language support from the Dash
<dpm> for two languages such as English and German, it is pretty easy to switch input methods, as the only method is the same keyboard, only a few keys change
<dpm> I type in Catalan, Spanish, English and German, and my physical keyboard has a German layout
<dpm> so I've got a keyboard shortcut set up to switch the keyboard layout every time I need to
<dpm> but you can also do it manually from the indicator menus
<dpm> for more complex scripts, then you'd have to use an input method such as IBus, but language selector should take care of enabling it
<ClassBot> jbicha asked: How do translations from Launchpad get to the "upstream" developers? If I translate Rhythmbox for Ubuntu, does that automatically get submitted to Rhythmbox so that all distros benefit?
<dpm> we currently don't have a way to automatically submit translations to external upstreams (by external I mean not hosted in Launchpad), so we rely on the downstream translation teams to work closely with the upstream ones to coordinate and ensure translations end up in all places they need to be
<dpm> Nowadays most Ubuntu translations teams have got members that work upstream, which seems to work quite well
<dpm> there are two basic approaches: 1) translate upstream there and only complete Ubuntu translations in LP 2) Do the translations in LP, export them, and commit them upstream
<dpm> You'll find more info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream
<ClassBot> jbicha asked: do you know of any other web-based translation tools for the open source world, or is Launchpad pretty unique?
<dpm> Launchpad is awesome! :)
<dpm> There are other great OSS online translation tools out there. Pootle and Transifex are other popular two
<dpm> I remember a tool called Narro, which was used for Mozilla projects a while back, but I haven't checked it out in a while
<dpm> these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l84-p asked: Is there a way for an application to translate its text simultaneously to two different languages?
<dpm> Not that I know of with the current technology
<dpm> I know gettext supports having multiple languages defined, but they only act as fallback if a particular message is not translated into the main locale defined
<dpm> but in any case, why would one want an app with texts in more than 1 language at the same time?
<dpm> ok, if there aren't more questions for now, let's move on...
<dpm> [SLIDE 5]
<dpm>  
<dpm> How is Ubuntu translated?
<dpm> -------------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> We use our very own translations tool: Launchpad Translations
<dpm> Launchpad Translations allows you to easily translate projects online
<dpm> and seamlessly build and organise translation communities around them.
<dpm> It also allows translating Operating Systems, Ubuntu being the most evident example.
<dpm> You can start translating Ubuntu here:
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<dpm> There you'll see a list of translatable applications and documentation, ordered by priority and ready to translate
<dpm> [SLIDE 6]
<dpm> Alternatively, you can go directly to translatable applications in Launchpad from your desktop.
<dpm> If you open an application and go to Help > Translate this application...,
<dpm> your browser will be started and it will take you to the Launchpad Translations page for that particular application.
<dpm> Which is pretty neat
<dpm> You can try this: open Gedit, go to "Help > Translate this application..." and see it for yourself.
<dpm> On the browser window that opens you can start submitting translation suggestions from day one.
<dpm> This will take you to the translation page in your preferred language
<dpm> which you can then click on and you'll see the list of translatable applications for
<dpm> in Launchpad, using the standard translations terminology, these are called templates
<dpm> and are the translatable units translators work with
<dpm> I really recommend using Launchpad for online translation
<dpm> it is really easy and flexible
<dpm> and it allows saving your work, even before it is reviewed, facilitating the QA work
<dpm> that said, if you prefer translating offline, Launchpad Translations is flexible enough to let you download PO files (text files used for translations)
<dpm> to be used in offline translation tools
<dpm> These files are standard, so you can use any PO file editor available out there:
<dpm> Virtaal, POEdit, Lokalize, Gtranslator, ... there are quite a few
<dpm>  
<dpm> [SLIDE 7]
<dpm> [slidefile http://ubuntuone.com/2BO0P9Vt1Pp40dhiXXHnZv 7]
<dpm>  
<dpm> How can I contribute?
<dpm> ---------------------
<dpm>  
<dpm> As in any Open Source project, the important thing is communication.
<dpm> While everyone can submit translation suggestions in Launchpad,
<dpm> they will need to be reviewed by Ubuntu translation teams before being used.
<dpm> We do not only want to provide the best translated OS, but also the best quality of translations.
<dpm> So we also encourage translation teams to communicate through any means appropriate
<dpm> most teams use a mailing list
<dpm> but others also forums, IRC, etc.
<dpm> and most of them have also got a wiki page in the Ubuntu namespace
<dpm> where they coordinate their work
<dpm> So the next step in contributing to Ubuntu Translations is to get in touch with the translation team for your language,
<dpm> and tell them you'd like to contribute.
<dpm> It's easy: you can just find them on
<dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> On that page, you can just click on the links under the "Team/Supervisor" column and they will take you to the Launchpad page for the team
<dpm> You see that finding the language is easy, it's on the column on the left
<dpm> and most translation teams are named
<dpm> "Ubuntu <language> translators"
<dpm> where <language> is the name of the language they translate into
<dpm> on their Launchpad page you'll find all the info you'll need to get in touch with them
<dpm> If there isn't a team for your language yet, you should definitely start one
<dpm> You can do it by following these simple steps:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
<dpm> it is a one-off step, which shouldn't take long
<dpm> and after the new team has been appointed, you can start translating in Launchpad straight away
<dpm> If that step gets too technical for you, do not worry
<dpm> You can always get in touch with the global translations community and ask for help or advice, which is always a good idea
<dpm> Also if you want to start any discussion on Ubuntu Translations
<dpm> In true Ubuntu spirit, everyone is welcome there, and you'll get to know lots of interesting people from all over the globe :)
<dpm> Here's how to get in touch with the global translations community:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact
<dpm> And do check the translations quickstart guide:
<dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/QuickStartGuide
<dpm> which will tell you all you need to know to get involved
<dpm> [SLIDE 8]
<dpm> [slidefile http://ubuntuone.com/2BO0P9Vt1Pp40dhiXXHnZv 8]
<dpm>  
<dpm> Q&A
<dpm> ---
<dpm>  
<dpm> So I hope that that gave you a taste of how translation works in Ubuntu and how you can join our awesome translators.
<dpm> Now feel free to ask any questions about anything related to translations.
<dpm> Bring them on! ;-)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to contribute translating Ubuntu - Instructors: dpm - Slides: http://is.gd/AeLlw1
<ClassBot> Slides for How to contribute translating Ubuntu: http://ubuntuone.com/2BO0P9Vt1Pp40dhiXXHnZv
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l84-p asked: How do translations templates get into the launchpad system for universe packages?
<dpm> ah, a very good question
<dpm> in principle, they don't get imported. We only import translation templates from main and restricted
<dpm> however
<dpm> not too long ago a feature was added to Launchpad to enable importing universe translations
<dpm> these need to be enabled on a package per package basis
<dpm> which requires some trivial modifications to the package
<dpm> andrejz, a translations community member, started collecting a list of interesting universe packages that would be interesting to have in Launchpad
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> He collected them in a wiki page, which also includes technical info on how to modify the packages
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Universe_Translations_in_LP
<ClassBot> jbicha asked: is there a reason why more universe packages aren't  translatable by launchpad? Is it becuase it makes the language packs too big?
<dpm> there were two main reason why back in the day it was decided not to import universe packages:
<dpm> one was size, but a few months ago, when we implemented the "universe import feature" we calculated it wouldn't be an issue
<dpm> the other one was the mods that the packages need to support translations
<dpm> generally we modify the packages to use dh_translations, which does all needed to get them imported into Launchpad
<dpm> for universe packages, which often come without modification from Debian
<dpm> this is often not that easy (in terms of finding a maintainer to maintain these changes)
<dpm> ok, time is up!
<dpm> thanks everyone for participating and for the interesting questions!
<dpm> I hope you've enjoyed the session, learned something new and join our translator ranks :)
<dpm> see you!
<dpm> now time for jbicha to take the floor
<dpm> give him a big round of applause!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu 12.04 LTS for Ubuntu 10.04 LTS Users - Instructors: jbicha
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jbicha> Hi, good morning and Happy Star Wars Day! I'm Jeremy Bicha and I work with the Open IT Lab in Columbia, South Carolina.
<jbicha> I'm also a volunteer Ubuntu developer. I'm a part of Ubuntu's Desktop and Documentation teams. I joined those teams in early 2011 as I was between jobs and I wanted to improve my skills while helping others.
<jbicha> At that time, the Documentation team badly needed help to convert the new GNOME help to be suitable for Ubuntu.
<jbicha> The Desktop Team needed help in packaging and testing GNOME 3. (By the way, both those teams still can use extra people to help out!)
<jbicha> I've also worked with dpm the past few weeks to coordinate the ubuntu-docs releases with the translation schedules
<jbicha> Today I'd like to talk to those who have been happily using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS (or 10.10) and want to learn more about what's new with Ubuntu.
<jbicha> The user experience has changed dramatically more in the past 2 years than has ever happened for Ubuntu before.
<jbicha> A change as big as that is nearly certain to be controversial.
<jbicha> The general outline I'm planning for this hour is: 1. What's different in 12.04 besides Unity? 2. Intro to Unity 3. What is GNOME Classic? 4. And Some Tips on Updating Your Computer
<jbicha> I'll also be answering questions this hour so ask away in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jbicha> I'm not sure if I have enough to talk about for a full hour so your questions help!
<jbicha> Quite a bit is the same as Ubuntu 10.04: The same music and video players are being used
<jbicha> Firefox is still the default web browser. Because of Mozilla's new rapid release cycle, Ubuntu 10.04 and 12.04 are even using the same version: Firefox 12.
<jbicha> The window buttons are still on the left (aka more like OS X, less like Windows) ;)
<jbicha> Ok, for some differences from Ubuntu 10.04:
<jbicha> Some apps are no longer installed by default, but they're still available for easy install:
<jbicha> Pitivi the video editor
<jbicha> Tomboy (a note-taking app) and gbrainy (brain teaser edu-game) aren't on the install CD as there were concerns over how well it could be maintained for the next 5 years
<jbicha> (They will probably work fine but there's a higher threshold for stuff that is installed on everyone's computers!)
<jbicha> Thunderbird (also made by Mozilla) is the default email client instead of Evolution (made by GNOME developers).
<jbicha> Personally I usually use webmail so that change doesn't affect me much.
<jbicha> Python 2.7 is the default instead of Python 2.6 (Python 2.6 isn't even available for install now).
<jbicha> And there are a whole bunch of improvements to apps as part of GTK3/GNOME 3
<jbicha> Just a few...
<jbicha> The file browser has new Undo support; I'm sure that will get even more powerful in the future
<jbicha> The GNOME Games have seen a lot of development work in the past few months, with a simpler, easier to use interface
<jbicha> User help is a lot more *helpful* and it continues to improve
<jbicha> System Settings is very nice and easier to navigate
<jbicha> There really are so many improvements that it's difficult to remember all of them (I usually run the Alpha and Beta releases so I've had the good stuff for a while now!)
<jbicha> ...
<jbicha> But of course, the biggest difference is that a new user interface named Unity has replaced Ubuntu's traditional desktop & the Ubuntu netbook edition.
<jbicha> Part of my job is introducing Ubuntu and other open source technologies to people who've never used them before.
<jbicha> My experience doing this the past 6 months has been that Ubuntu's new default look is fairly easy to use and looks great.
<jbicha> Besides looking good (which is important in convincing people to consider using something different), Ubuntu 12.04 is far easier to navigate with a keyboard than Ubuntu 10.04.
<jbicha> If you wanted to, you could definitely use Ubuntu 12.04 without a mouse once you learn the keyboard shortcuts
<jbicha> doing that is much less of a headache than it was in 10.04
<jbicha> I encourage you to give Ubuntu 12.04 a try. Even if you've tried Unity before and didn't like it, there have been numerous improvements to style and performance so it's definitely worth a second look.
<jbicha> There are three main parts to the Unity desktop:
<jbicha> 1. On the top row is the *menu bar*.
<jbicha> - On the right hand side are your application and system status menus (often called "indicators"), on the left are the app menus (File Edit View)
<jbicha> - And if a window is maximized to take up the full screen, your Close/Minimize/Maximize buttons are in the top left corner
<jbicha> 2. On the left of your screen is the launcher which holds your currently running apps and shortcuts to start your "favorite apps"
<jbicha> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/figures/unity-launcher-intro.png.en-US
<jbicha> 3. And the top icon in the launcher with the Ubuntu logo is your shortcut to the Dash
<jbicha> - The Dash is where you can browse or search for apps, files, music and videos
<jbicha> You can open an app with the keyboard by tapping your Super key (Windows key) and typing in a few letters like
<jbicha> ter
<jbicha> and then press Enter or click on the Terminal to start your Terminal, for instance
<jbicha> At the bottom of the Dash are little white icons that allow you to choose what specifically you're looking for
<jbicha> These are called "Lenses", from left to right they are Home (the start screen), Apps, Files, Music, and Videos
<jbicha> In any of those lenses, you can click the Filter Results button to limit what's being shown
<jbicha> In the apps lens, you can use Filter Results to look at open a specific category or type of app or click All to look at everything
<jbicha> You can customize the favorite apps in the launcher on the left. Right-click on one of the launcher icons to Lock to Launcher or Unlock from Launcher
<jbicha> locking to the launcher will keep the app's shortcut there even when it's not running
<jbicha> Your currently running apps have a little white triangle on the left
<jbicha> ...
<jbicha> On the other hand, if you prefer the traditional Ubuntu look, you're not out of luck either.
<jbicha> Just install gnome-panel.
<jbicha> Log out and on the login screen, click the Ubuntu logo next to your name and select GNOME Classic from the list.
<jbicha> You may want the "Without Effects" option as there are a few bugs with the other one (which uses Compiz).
<jbicha> Those are bug 971051 and the theming bugs bug 981289 and bug 955376.
<jbicha> (just a moment as I log out and back in myself)
<jbicha> Here's a screenshot of what my computer looks like running GNOME Classic in Ubuntu 12.04: http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=210965
<jbicha> And here's what Ubuntu 10.04 looked like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubuntu_10.04_screenshot.png
<jbicha> It's not quite the same as in any previous Ubuntu release but it's pretty close.
<jbicha> buntu 9.10 was different from 10.04 which was different from 10.10, etc.
<jbicha> gnome-panel was ported to GTK3 which fixed some bugs (have you ever had the bug where when you change screen resolution, your panel applets get all jumbled in weird positions? That's fixed now!)
<jbicha> The System menu part of Applications/Places/System has gone away, now that we're using an awesome System Settings app; the rest of its contents can be found in the Applications menu.
<jbicha> The help button was removed by default in Ubuntu 10.10
<jbicha> and the Firefox button was removed by default in 11.10 (since people may not use Firefox as the default and it's a bit weird to only have one app get special treatment).
<jbicha> The trash button was removed by default in 11.10 since it's easy to get to the Trash from your file browser and it's pretty unclear whether enough people use it enough to justify the extra clutter on the deskto
<jbicha> p
<jbicha> and the GNOME developers don't put it on the panel by default either).
<jbicha> The biggest functionality difference in gnome-panel 3 is that the panel is locked by default.
<jbicha> You'll need to hold down the Alt key (or if you're using Compiz, Alt and the Windows key) while right-clicking to add new applets or to move to remove existing applets.
<jbicha> That unfortunately is not very discoverable. :(
<ClassBot> dakra_ asked: What are the system and administrative changes?(e.g. kernel 3, software center etc.) Their benefits?
<jbicha> Ubuntu 12.04 uses the 3.2 version of the Linux kernel
<jbicha> I don't know a lot about the kernel as I focus on other parts of Ubuntu
<jbicha> I think the power management problem in newer Intel motherboards is quite a bit better
<jbicha> you'll need a newer kernel anyway to run those computers as I don't think that support existed for those chips in 10.04
<jbicha> I'm happy that there is basic 2D graphics support for the Intel GMA500/Poulsbo graphics cards; that's been a headache and it's still not completely great but it's a lot better
<jbicha> Oh, and jsjgruber-l84-p pointed out that Ubuntu 12.04 doesn't support non-PAE computers by default now
<jbicha> If you have one of those older machines and the Ubuntu 12.04 CD won't work, you can either upgrade from 10.04
<jbicha> or use the Lubuntu or Xubuntu CDs to install
<jbicha> non-PAE support is planned to be completely dropped after 12.04 so you'll probably want to stay on 12.04 for the next 5 years if you have one of those computers
<jbicha> Ubuntu Software Center has gotten lots of work: it has a redesigned look and feel
<jbicha> far more paid apps are available
<jbicha> There are now Ratings and Reviews (ala Amazon) so you can get an idea of how good an app is before you install it
<jbicha> I encourage you to check out https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/ if you want to get a good feel for how Ubuntu works these days
<jbicha> That's also installed by default; just look for the Help app
<jbicha> If you're using GNOME Shell, the Help will be a little different http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/
<jbicha> Unfortunately we don't have pretty help for GNOME Classic
<jbicha> phanimahesh asked about user group management in Ubuntu 12.04
<jbicha> The User Accounts panel in System Settings only supports designating a person as having Standard or Administrator access
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jbicha> I actually really like this as it should be good for the vast majority of home users
<jbicha> sysadmins can use visudo or PolicyKit scripts or similar tools if they need more fine-grained control
<jbicha> You can also install gnome-system-tools and run users-admin if you really want the old tool
<jbicha> I was told in #ubuntu-desktop this week when it was discussed that the old tool wasn't really as functional as it promised but I don't know any details about that
<jbicha> There's some discontent about "options being removed": It's important to realize that every option has a cost.
<jbicha> Part of what makes Ubuntu's installer great is that tries to ask as few questions as possible because it's difficult to know what's the right answer and too many questions gets overwhelming
<jbicha> Some have asked for an "Advanced" button, but I think a lot more people consider themselves "Advanced" than really are
<jbicha> I think the important part is that the tools and settings work and are easy to use
<jbicha> by default
<jbicha> If you want more, look to gnome-tweak-tool or other similar tweak apps
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jbicha> Unity is a bit more configurable now too than it was in previous releases, look at the Appearance or Displays sections of System Settings for instance
<jbicha> Ah, and in the final couple minutes I wanted to briefly talk about updating your computer version
<jbicha> In addition to the typical upgrade, I recommend you try something else
<jbicha> Download the latest Ubuntu CD and run that. That will let you test if your hardware works well still
<jbicha> You can use that CD to Upgrade your current install (it's one of the choices in the installer)
<jbicha> You don't want to do that if you've made system-level customizations to /etc/ /var/ or similar but most people haven't
<jbicha> It's a lot faster than the traditional upgrade
<jbicha> Also, if you're using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, your may want to late a couple months until Ubuntu 12.04.1 is released as there will be more bugs fixed by then
<jbicha> Thanks for listening and it looks like we're ready for the Ubuntu Women talk now...
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Women Project - Instructors: pleia2
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week session about the Ubuntu Women Project!
<pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach, and I work as a Linux (Debian) Systems Administrator
<pleia2> Here in the Ubuntu world, among other things, I'm a member of the Ubuntu Community Council and one the trio of leaders for the Ubuntu Women project along with Cheri Francis and Jessica Ledbetter
<pleia2> In this session I'll be covering some of our recent projects and plans for the future
<pleia2> Several of us will be meeting in person next week at the Ubuntu Developer Summit (UDS) in Oakland, California to plan some of our work for the next cycle, so I'd also be happy to hear suggestions :)
<pleia2> But quickly just 2 things this session is not about:
<pleia2> 1. I won't be justifying the existence of the Ubuntu Women Project or explaining basic feminism topics
<pleia2> This is open source! Members of the project feel it is valuable and wish to spend their time on it, if you aren't interested in the project you don't need to get involved
<pleia2> If you are interested in the language of feminism, particularly as it relates to open source communities, to understand why we do what we do, I recommend starting with: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101
<pleia2> 2. I won't be rehashing the challenges that many women face in open source, tech or geek communities in general, or incidents that have occurred, these are already well-documented in many places, including:
<pleia2> ttp://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Issues
<pleia2> oops
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Issues
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
<pleia2> So, on with the presentation, recent projects and plans for the future!
<pleia2> At the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Orlando for the Precise cycle we put together a blueprint outlining some of our goals:
<pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-women.org/+spec/community-p-ubuntu-women-project-goals
<pleia2> I'll give you a moment to bring that up (and to me to grab my cup of coffee on the counter over there)
<pleia2> so, you'll notice that the first few discuss mentoring, and during this cycle Amber Graner (akgraner) spoke with a number of folks regarding mentoring programs in the open source world
<pleia2> One of the really interesting things she learned was that while there was some value to large, formalized mentor-mentee programs, the best way to really gain contributors and keep them was by more casual mentoring
<pleia2> This would generally be in the form of a supportive environment and one or two key people who where available to ask for help
<pleia2> This is what we've been working on this for years and calling it our "informal program until we coordinate something better" - it was already the better thing :)
<pleia2> oh, questions are welcome at any time, ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION:
<pleia2> The next few blueprint items are mostly organizational :) we got a new wiki theme installed and pointed ubuntu-women.org at wiki.ubuntu-women.org since pretty much all the content had been moved to the wiki anyway
<pleia2> Now, one of the really interesting conversations we had at UDS was how to not be confrontational in our recommendations for how teams should go about treating, recruiting and keeping women in their projects
<pleia2> We often cited http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ which is a lot of Dos and Don't and had a Best Practices page on our wiki which reflected this
<pleia2> this is a really great document, but it's important to understand the history in which it evolved and the time it was published
<pleia2> you might notice the date on it is from late 2002, I'd only been using Linux for 10 months and the community around linux was a much different place than it is today
<pleia2> it was meant to give some clear, obvious guidelines for working with the very few women in the community for folks who were really uncertain
<pleia2> these days it comes off as somewhat unfriendly with very rigid Dos and Don'ts
<pleia2> maybe we should submit some patches :)
<pleia2> but we did want to have a much quicker document covering some of the broader issues when it comes to improving diversity in communities, so we had our Best Practices document which linked to the Encourage Women HowTo
<pleia2> Susan Spencer took it upon herself to lead up improving it, and we now have this much-improved document to share with teams: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/BestPractices
<pleia2> I think it's a big improvement :)
<pleia2> Now, we also went beyond our set blueprint this cycle
<pleia2> Back in September (before the cycle began) Cheri Francis came up with the idea of "Career Days" which we've been hosting in Ubuntu Classroom every other month
<pleia2> It was inspired by her own experiences in tech and studies which continue to show that women lack female role models and exposure to tech career opportunities
<pleia2> During a Career Days session we have a woman with a career related to technology join us in IRC to talk about her career path and what her job looks like
<pleia2> (note: I say "woman" here because part of the goal is female role models as well, but we are actually open to men coming in and talk about their careers too since our other goal is exposure)
<pleia2> So far we've had 4 sessions: a Linux Systems Administrator, a Software Developer who is now a CEO of a tech company, a Community Manager for an open source tech company and a Media Liaison for a Linux hardware company
<pleia2> They've been very valuable for our community and it's been fascinating to hear how all of these women have become so involved with open source because of where their careers have taken them
<pleia2> it was also great to hear that from Emma in our last session about how her job got her involved in some Ubuntu projects that she would have never head about otherwise
<pleia2> We launched a bunch of social networking outlets last year (twitter/identica feeds, Facebook and Google+ all linked on blog.ubuntu-women.org) and it's really started to extend our reach beyond the open source world
<pleia2> maintaining them all has been an adventure :) but getting into touch with a broader audience has made it worth it
<pleia2> We also continue to write articles for an Ubuntu Women column in Full Circle Magazine, and could always use ideas for more articles and women to interview :)
<pleia2> Our FCM wiki page links to details about our column past articles: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/FullCircleMagazine
<pleia2> so you can get some idea of what we've written in the past, who we've interviewed and if you're interested in writing something there is also some information about the basics of what we're looking for and some style guidelines
<pleia2> at the beginning of the session I mentioned that we'll be having an Ubuntu Women session at the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Oakland next week
<pleia2> we'll be using this session to plan out some of what we want to work on during the next 6 months
<pleia2> it's currently scheduled for Thursday at noon in Grand Ballroom H, but I'd check the schedule at http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/ regularly because these things tend to move :)
<pleia2> that's noon local time, UTC-7
<pleia2> there will be an audio feed and an IRC channel associated with it for remote attendees, more information about attending remotely can be found here: http://uds.ubuntu.com/community/remote-participation/
<pleia2> this will certainly be partially a brainstorming session, but we also have some ideas already for what we want to do next cycle
<pleia2> We'd like to start to develop "profiles" of our target audience so we can better craft materials (handouts at conferences) and our initiatives to certain groups of women who we wish to bring into open source and Ubuntu
<pleia2> Aside from being brilliant, what I love about this idea is that it was brought to us by a woman who had never been involved with the project until UDS in Orlando
<pleia2> Fresh perspectives from other women are vital to projects like ours, so please don't be shy when offering suggestions which may help women like you (or like your sister, girlfriend, mother) get involved :)
<pleia2> On the administrative side, we'd like to design a new theme for our blog, since the default has that huge banner at the top
<pleia2> we'll also be continuing the projects we currently have in the fire, full circle magazine, more career days sessions
<pleia2> And other plans? Let's just say I'm excited to hear what ideas come from this UDS!
<pleia2> Oh, and I'll be hosting an Ubuntu Women dinner at my home in San Francisco on Thursday evening during UDS, details here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/2012-April/003500.html
<pleia2> that's pretty much all I had :) any questions?
<pleia2> I'll be around for the remaining time in case there are questions that pop up, so feel free to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââStatistically speaking, does anyone know the percentage of Ubuntu users who are women?
<pleia2> no one knows in general how many *people* are using Ubuntu :)
<pleia2> so it's really hard to know how many of any certain demographic
<pleia2> however, we have worked to track the percentage of women who are Ubuntu Members (have made significant and sustained contributions to Ubuntu)
<pleia2> and of the people whose gender we could determine, that number is around 5%
<pleia2> it's still not high, but it's not as bad as the statistics floating around for general open source
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu2 asked: ââI notice at our Ubuntu Hours it is only guys. What tips would you have to help bring women to Ubuntu?
<pleia2> the Best Practices document I linked earlier has some broad recommendations: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/BestPractices
<pleia2> letting people know they're welcome is also a big thing, I know when I attend Networking conferences with my fiance it can be kind of weird when I go out with people as "the fiancee" of someone who is really there, it helps a ton when I feel included and people ask me questions too and not treat me like some outsider
<pleia2> akgraner also wrote this great article a while back about how spouses can feel more included: http://ubuntu-us.org/2009/08/30/cookies-for-ubuntu/
<ClassBot> bkerensa asked: How can LoCo's try to engage Women who use Ubuntu to get involved with LoCo's there seems to be a barrier in this
<pleia2> similar to the last question, the Best Practices doc and even though I said the Encourage Women document is a bit dated there are some tips there that can be helpful when planning events
<pleia2> I obviously love linux and going to events is fun, but if they're hosted down a dark alley at night, I probably won't go :)
<pleia2> if I'm a vegetarian, I probably won't be thrilled with the food at an event being a pile of pepperoni pizzas
<pleia2> so my biggest suggestion is being aware of more diversity in general, think of your potential attendees and make announcements that make it clear that it will be welcoming
<pleia2> and encourage your attendees to bring women they know who may be interested! I went to my first LUG meeting with my boyfriend, 5 years later I was running the LUG :)
<ClassBot> Cheri703 asked: I know we don't have statistics about how many women USE ubuntu, but don't we have statistics about how many ubuntu *members* are women? (that may have been included in one of your links, I didn't follow all of them)
<pleia2> I already covered this one, but I'll take this as an opportunity to share a comment from maco...
<pleia2> < maco> For Kubuntu Members, the number is 7.5%
<pleia2> < maco> (Kubuntu Members are a subset of Ubuntu Members)
<pleia2> yay :)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> bkerensa asked: Is Ubuntu Women as a project doing any marketing or events nationwide to try and grow? I know valorie brought our LoCo down some UW business cards and stickers which we are starting to run low on but do have at our tables/booths
<pleia2> I shipped those business cards and stickers to valorie :) I've been doing that for women hosting events around the country and world
<pleia2> we're also hoping that by defining the Profiles I mentioned we can better target these things, including handouts and things
<pleia2> we have a bunch of existing resources here: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Resources
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pleia2> that's where you can grab the business cards, sticker info, links to our logo files
<pleia2> thanks for coming everyone! :)
<pleia2> this is the last session of Ubuntu Open Week, so have a nice weekend everyone
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<SillyMoniker> so... i'm looking at getting a new laptop... what's better supported?  Radeon HD 6xxx or Intel 3000?
<AminosAmigos> h
<SillyMoniker> whoops wrong channel, i guess  :)
<Cxz> hi i wld like to take the ubuntu certification
<Cxz> any materials link?
<Cxz> to train others as well
<Cxz> help asap
<pleia2> Cxz: I don't think the certified professionals course exists anymore (and that's not us anyway)
<pleia2> this channel is for IRC-based events, no certificates
<Cxz> ok..pleia2 thanks a lot for z kind help
<Cxz> do u have any reference?
<Cxz> certifications still exist FYI :)
<pleia2> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/training/ just redirects to support now, so I don't know where the information would be
<Cxz> k mehn really apprec8
<pleia2> ah, http://www.ubuntu.com/support/training/course-descriptions/certified-professional
<pleia2> but it doesn't link to anything, I don't know anyone still giving it, and it's written for 10.04
<Cxz> cool...oh ok
<Cxz> i got u now
<Cxz> just thought i could get some1 who's done it
<Cxz> and get some advise
<pleia2> well, I did technical review on it
<Cxz> to teach others in my region
<Cxz> ok...feel free to tell me more
<Cxz> and advise;)
<pleia2> unfortunately there aren't really current course materials available :(
<pleia2> there is an ubuntu-learning team that's trying to write some, but there aren't finished documents yet
<pleia2> http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=21
<pleia2> has the materials for the 10.04 stuff
<Cxz> free or forsale?
<pleia2> for sale
<Cxz> oh:(
<Cxz> well...
<pleia2> the ubuntu-learning team wants to write them for free, but again, nothing yet
<Cxz> ok...
<Cxz> its just that i feel its a ryt time to take it
<pleia2> you're welcome to join the mailing list in case we do make progress: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-learning
<Cxz> k:)
<Cxz> thanks mehn
<Cxz> u've been good help:)
<pleia2> you're welcome
<Cxz> if i may just ask, whats dis channel abt?
<pleia2> we host online classes, details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<Cxz> k
<Cxz> cool
<Cxz> wish i could introduce this somehow
<Cxz> to my region
<P-Chan> Why ubuntu developers not donate to Gimp project?
<P-Chan> Gimp needs CYMK support and 16 bit color channel
<P-Chan> ok bye bye
<IdleOne> because the Ubuntu developers need donating to of their own !?
<JanC> actually, the GIMP will get higher precision & should (eventually?) also get native CMYK once the gegl backend is in place
<JanC> the gimp already has CMYK support right now, to some degree, but only for import/export AFAIK, and of course it depends on the availability of media colour profiles
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-05
<RodrogoZun> huenchunlero
<epicguy25> http://p1.portal2sounds.com/sound.php?id=308&stream
<mustafakyr> QUESTION: I am still having "Black Screen" trouble with my 10.04 installation at startup, I have to reset it to open properly. Am i gonna experience the same problem with 12.04 edition ?  Do you have any idea ? Thanks in advance.
<EvilResistance> mustafakyr:  you may want to ask in #ubuntu
<EvilResistance> mustafakyr:  this room isnt the support channel
<EvilResistance> bleh
<IdleOne> you were 5 seconds too late
<IdleOne> 30 seconds is the maximum wait time
 * EvilResistance throws a brick at IdleOne
<EvilResistance> yes, but the first one came in ibefore they died
<IdleOne> only because it took the server 4 seconds to post it
 * EvilResistance yawns
<EvilResistance> blame crappy Verizon internet
 * IdleOne catches brick and begins work on pyramid
<EvilResistance> in comparison to Comcast, well...
<EvilResistance> IdleOne:  good for you :P
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-05-06
<Marco98> Is there things happening or is there just no events?
<Marco98> Ok.
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-01
<bar0by_> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-02
<mzaza> Hello
<mzaza> Is there like a PDF guide which explains how to contribute to the Ubuntu code?
<acoleman1981> has anyone else had the issue of a usb keyboard and mouse working but when removing the usb devices and trying to use the installed touchpad and keyboard (laptop) it only works every other reboot?  Please private message me with any help available or links to instructions. Thanks!
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-05-04
<keshav> hi
<keshav> i am a newbie
<keshav> which channel should i go to?
<keshav> I need help with creating a freedos live usb to flash my bios
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-04-28
<JOY_> ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-05-03
<qwebirc55622> Is anyone currently present?
