#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-26
<klepas> anyone awake?
<artnay_> klepas! :o
<artnay_> hi AndyFitz 
<AndyFitz> g'day artnay
<artnay_> we've recently had some discussion on a meeting
<artnay_> what GMT time would be suitable for people living in .au?
<artnay_> (guess you can only talk for yourself but anyways)
<AndyFitz> we are GMT+10 
<AndyFitz> unsuitable hours would be  in the  very early am
<artnay_> umh, it's pretty challening to get the right time for all of us
<artnay_> any suggestions? the most active artworkers seem to be from australia and europe but there's still some people from the states
<artnay_> we should have a meeting before NYE, that's for sure
<artnay_> is five days too short notice time?
<artnay_> if we could just agree on a date, then post invitation to the list etc.
<klepas> artnay_: check the last email from me to the ML
<klepas> AndyFitz: seen it too?
<AndyFitz> yep
<AndyFitz> good idea. I'll be up for it 
<AndyFitz> ( I'll be away during holiday break from 24th - 2nd jan
<artnay_> whoami: cannot find username for UID 22382
<artnay_> ls: .: Stale NFS file handle - getpwuid() can't identify your account!
<artnay_> hence the 404
<artnay_> luckily I have backups on two other computers (FreeBSD fileserv at home and Gmail account :>)
<artnay_> klepas: thanks for writing that post. i'd go for 29th
<artnay_> what time? to be honest, it doesn't matter. it's GMT +2 in here, just give me enough tee and ciggies and I'll be awake
<artnay_> oh, the post? here it is: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000523.html
<artnay_> klepas: maybe we should move the whole artwork-todo proposition into wiki 
<artnay_> well Christmas is coming, that will give some time to get wiki organized
<artnay_> it seems that people aren't aware of things that are listed on the proposal
<artnay_> e.g. majority of the people think that humility is still under development
<artnay_> klepas: any plans for christmas holidays? :)
<artnay_> klepas: the one you're hosting is quite outdated :o
<klepas> sorry about the out-date-d-ness
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-27
<lukacu> good night
<klepas> moin
<artnay> hey
<artnay> klepas: no replies yet
<artnay> klepas: would you like to make a wiki page of artwork-todo?
<artnay> I'm very busy at the moment, sorry for that
<klepas> artnay: i'm at a lug christmas party
<klepas> so not now
<klepas> maybe later on today
<klepas> just had a presentation on tango, inkscape and gimp on our ITX breezy box
<klepas> :)
<klepas> anyhow
<klepas> gtg
<klepas> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-28
<klepas> moin
<artnay> g morning
<klepas> moin
<artnay> http://www.lx-networks.de/sticker.php
<klepas> nice :)
<artnay> canonical should include those with the CDs they send
<artnay> anyways, I'm ordering :)
<klepas> yep
<artnay> so how was your presentation?
<klepas> i picked up a box of 250 CDs yesterday at our lug christmas partu
<artnay> haha
<klepas> s/partu/party
<klepas> very cool
<klepas> :)
<artnay> umh, everything is working now
<artnay> I had some problems when updating to dapper, but I managed to solve them
<artnay> now I'm ready to do some work ;)'
<klepas> :(
<klepas> it is just me or why did my mail to the art ML not get through/show up in my inbox/ubuntu-art folder...
<klepas> about the meeting
<artnay> klepas: no, it's not just you
<Badm4n> hello
<artnay> hey Badm4nz 
<Badm4nz> hello
<artnay> Badm4nz: what's on your mind?
<Badm4n> i only have idea with the ubutntu desktop
<Badm4n> :)
<Badm4n> how if when the system loading
<Badm4n> that state blablabalbala....ok
<Badm4n> blablablala....failed
<artnay> with graphics?
<Badm4n> we can put our own image/logo
<Badm4n> yes
<artnay> what do you mean by "system"?
<Badm4n> like :
<Badm4n> Bringing Network Interface up ........................ ok
<Badm4n> syncronizint time zone ................... failed
<artnay> oh, you meant Usplash
<Badm4n> U Splash ? after login screen ?
<Badm4n> i mean b4 the login screen
<artnay> yeah, that's Usplash for now
<Badm4n> oh i c
<artnay> it might change in future versions
<Badm4n> can we change it ?
<Badm4n> i c
<Badm4n> july 2006 rite ?
<artnay> well, there has been discussion of replacing text with icons
<artnay> july?
<Badm4n> yes the next update ?
<Badm4n> every 6 month rite ?
<artnay> dapper will be out in April, hence the name 6.04 (year and month)
<Badm4n> i c
<Badm4n> so the next time of breezy = dapper
<artnay> well I'm running dapper at the moment :)
<Badm4n> so for rite now we cant put our own logo/image ?
<Badm4n> on "uslash" ?
<artnay> well the "Ubuntu" text on it can be replaced
<Badm4n> <artnay> well I'm running dapper at the moment :) <---- may i have one ? :(
<Badm4n> :p
<artnay> but all the text that outputs what's happening inside the kernel, it's not possible to change it to icons (yet)
<artnay> dapper is still in development (sid), unstable version
<Badm4n> the text of ubuntu can be changed ? can you teach me ? if yes .. i'll reboot my computer and using ubuntu :D
<artnay> just sudo sed -e 's/breezy/dapper/g' /etc/apt/sources.list > /etc/apt/sources.list
<artnay> then sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<Badm4n> wait a moment
<Badm4n> rebooting :D
<Badm4n> wait...
<artnay> but that's unstable, it might brake your system
<Badm4n> hold up
<Badm4n> would ou :D
<Badm4n> brb
<artnay> don't update to dapper (yet) unless you're willing to fix your system every once in a while
<artnay> oh, he left already :o that's what happens if you don't pay enough attention :)
<artnay> hey lukacu 
<artnay> don't update to dapper (yet) unless you're willing to fix your system every once in a while
<Badm4n> back
<Badm4n> :D
<lukacu> artnay: hello
<Badm4n> :D
<Badm4n> i c
<Badm4n> hmm
<Badm4n> how about the usplash ?
<artnay> no replies regarding the meeting :(
<artnay> Badm4n: there's a wiki page for it
<Badm4n> icant find it at wiki
<Badm4n> the only that i can find is a how to change login img and preloading image
<Badm4n> using artmagaer
<Badm4n> lolz
<artnay> Badm4n: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USplashCustomizationHowto
<artnay> maybe there should be a GUI to do all that
<artnay> lukacu: would 29th be ok?
<Badm4n> gcc -shared -Wl,-soname,usplash-artwork.so usplash-artwork.o -o yourimage-splash.so <---- .so ? how i can create it ?
<lukacu> artnay: yes ... fine with me
<artnay> Badm4n: create what?
<artnay> The PNG must be: 640x480 16 colours.
<artnay> shouldn't that be 640x400?
<lukacu> artnay: i am just woried about the hour :)
<artnay> lukacu: me too
<artnay> well, actually I don't care about it. maybe there should be a voting for that
<artnay> at least we could ask what people think of different times
<Badm4n> yourimage.so ?
<lukacu> yes. make five options and then let them vote
<artnay> lukacu: you have the necessary tools for that? I'm doing LAMP, Wordpress and punBB
<artnay> Badm4n: you need to have the preferred image first
<artnay> then just follow the instructions
<lukacu> artnay: for voting?
<artnay> lukacu: yeah
<artnay> let's say it's on the 29th of Dec
<Badm4n> to create myownomage.so ?
<artnay> ok. now create a link for voting, post it to list and people will have a possibility express themselves
<Badm4n> i have already my own png with specific requirment
<artnay> Badm4n: ok, did you install libbogl-dev?
<artnay> then just cd directorywhereyourimage is
<Badm4n> on the way :D
* Badm4n folow the instruction
<artnay> and follow the wiki instructions
<lukacu> artnay: how about a simple wiki page? too much freedom?
<Badm4n> Setting up libbogl-dev (0.1.18-1.1ubuntu3) ...
<Badm4n> root@tequila:/home/mirza#
<Badm4n> done
<artnay> lukacu: I was just going to suggest that :)
<lukacu> lol ... wiki is good for everything
<Badm4n> lol
<artnay> maybe the clock should be divided into eight sections
<artnay> what do you think?
<lukacu> and we can build our agenda there also
<artnay> or what do you mean by 5 different sections? how are you going to do that?
<Badm4n> like a time scedule / reminder ?
<artnay> lukacu: let's build it beforehand. then just show it to the people and ask for improvements, suggestions etc.
<artnay> let's make a wiki page of that
<lukacu> ok
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> my todo list is somewhere in /dev/null
<artnay> but klepas has a backu
<artnay> a wiki page of that would be great
<lukacu> indeed
<artnay> it would be even better if we could separate the topics mentioned on the list into different wiki pages
<lukacu> mentioned by who? ... klepas?
<Badm4n> hmmm
<Badm4n> ubuntu 5.10 have png editor ?
<artnay> Badm4n: the gimp
<artnay> lukacu: I did the list (artwork-todo), but my account was deleted :>
<artnay> and I haven't had time to seek for bu on my BSD serv
<artnay> klepas had it on cache so he made it public
<lukacu> i see :)
<artnay> it's a bit outdated but I most probably am able to recall what was changed in the most recent version
<artnay> Badm4n: just alt+f2 -> gimp -> enter
<Badm4n> yes
<lukacu> artnay: will you start the agenda page? ... i have some stuff to add but not enough to start with
<Badm4n> i'm looking for the canvas size lolz... never use gimp :(
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> http://wombat.nuxified.com/artwork-todo
<artnay> that's a start
<Badm4n> is that must be : e PNG must be: 640x480 16 colour
<artnay> Badm4n: yes, otherwise it won't work
<Badm4n> and doesnt make my system crash ? rite
<artnay> although I think it should be 640x400
<artnay> as I spoke with mjg59 and he stated that
<artnay> Badm4n: if it doesn't work, your system should boot without Usplash
<Badm4n> http://wombat.nuxified.com/artwork-todo <-- agree is the colour using 256 :D
<lukacu> artnay: yeah... but somebody must create a page ... that is create a suitable name for it :)
<artnay> Badm4n: it might be one of the improvements
<artnay> it requires changes to how Usplash operates with fb
<artnay> and it's not in dapper yet
<Badm4n> i'm sorry but i cant find to change my png to 16 colours.
<Badm4n> how that is posible ?
<artnay> are you creating an image?
<Badm4n> nope
<Badm4n> i open my old png
<artnay> maybe it has more colours than just 16
<Badm4n> yes
<Badm4n> how to change it to 16
<Badm4n> or i must create a new one ?
<artnay> no
<artnay> $EDITOR 16colours
<artnay> #!/bin/sh
<artnay> convert -depth 24  $1 $1
<artnay> convert -depth 16  $1 $1
<artnay> convert -depth  8  $1 $1
<artnay> convert -colors  16   $1 $1
<artnay> paste those lines there
<artnay> then sh 16colours currentimage.png new16colourimage.png
<artnay> I guess that's one way to do it. I'm on XP machine at the moment and I don't have da GIMP here :(
<Badm4n> lol
<Badm4n> ok ok
<Badm4n> root@tequila:/home/mirza# sh 16kolor.sh look1a.png uslash.png
<Badm4n> 16kolor.sh: line 2: convert: command not found
<Badm4n> 16kolor.sh: line 3: convert: command not found
<Badm4n> 16kolor.sh: line 4: convert: command not found
<Badm4n> 16kolor.sh: line 5: convert: command not found
<Badm4n> lolz
<Badm4n> nevermind
<Badm4n> maybe nextime
<Badm4n> i'll get my xp on now :D:))
<Badm4n> brb
<artnay> that requires imagemagick I guess
* Badm4n on xp rite now
<Badm4n> lol
<artnay> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install imagemagick
<artnay> lukacu: I try to move that stuff out of text page into a wiki page
<artnay> today if I just find time for that, any help will be much appreciated
<klepas> hey guys
<klepas> sorry i wasn't around earlier
<klepas> festivities and whatnot :)
<lukacu> artnay: i will help
<lukacu> hello klepas
<artnay> no prob, take a look what lukacu and I were discussing
<artnay> andyfitz left from here and bvc doesn't hang on IRC :(
* klepas is talking to andy atm via jabber
<klepas> should i tell him to come in?
<artnay> no, don't force him :D
<artnay> it would be nice to have +20 people on the channel
<lukacu> well ... thats a bit too much to expect i guess :)
<artnay> anyways, it's the 23rd of Dec here in Finland. I've nearly finished my work and therefore leaving soon
<artnay> lukacu: it shouldn't be
<artnay> I see lots of interest in graphics at ubuntuforums
<artnay> if only we could get some of those guys to join this channel
<artnay> not much talk in here :(
<lukacu> ok ... perhaps i dont see the whole picture here
<artnay> well I think there should be artwork team at ubuntuforums
<artnay> have links in signatures
<artnay> that way people would be aware what's happening, that there's a team that is supposed to do some artwork
<artnay> maybe I'll post a suggestion to admins of ubuntuforums
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> I mean, there's tweaker team, documentation team, kubuntu team, god knows what
<artnay> we don't even have a proper wiki page, how should people know about all of this?
<lukacu> i agree :)
<klepas> yea
<klepas> i think the best way to tackle this is discuss if over that general meeting I proposed
<klepas> has anyone actually gotten it?
<klepas> I didn't get a copy...
<lukacu> i just think that we should not expect too much ... but it will be a start
<artnay> copy of what? I haven't even subscribed, I always use fx to read the list :9
<artnay> klepas: hey, read the wiki page proposition
<lukacu> ive received a meeting proposal on the ml
<artnay> to have a voting of the meeting time
<artnay> as a wiki page
<artnay> and add option "I don't care, I'll participate anyway"
<artnay> :)
<artnay> "I don't care, I'm not coming" :o
<lukacu> klepas: 21.12. [ubuntu-art]  General Ubuntu Art meeting for December ? is that correct email?
<artnay> anyways, I'm leaving now. in case we don't have a discussion here later today, happy holidays (or may I say "Merry Christmas!") to all of you
<artnay> lukacu: that is
<artnay> no replies :(
<artnay> ok, take care
<lukacu> bye
<klepas> yes lukacu 
<klepas> that is the right email
* klepas wonders why he doesn't have a copy
<lukacu> :)
* klepas is upset
<klepas> Oh, have i mentioned
<klepas> i'm meeting Andy and Mark Shuttleworth
<klepas> in 31 days!
<klepas> :)
<lukacu> :D
<klepas> actually i'll be sitting in on Andy's presentation
<klepas> and listening to Mark's one as well
<klepas> ought to be awesome
<lukacu> well.. it is always good to know people at high places :)
<lukacu> where are you meeting them?
<klepas> LCA2006
<klepas> http://lca2006.linux.org.au/
<lukacu> thats a huge event :)
<klepas> sure is
<Badm4n> is shipit.com absolutely freee ? cause i request one :F
<Badm4n> :D
<Badm4n> using usps ?
<artnay> Badm4n: it is
<artnay> hi mhz 
<Badm4n> i c
<Badm4n> so it will take about 7 days ?
<Badm4n> if em not wrong
<mhz> hi artnay, how's it going?
<artnay> Badm4n: it is completely free although you won't receive the CD on your door :)
<artnay> Badm4n: seven days? I don't know, there might still be queue left (all the time, baby)
<artnay> maybe a month or so
<Badm4n> i c :p
<artnay> mhz: I'm fine, not at job anymore ;). you?
<mhz> artnay: me looking for a job (it's been 2 1/5 months with no 'getting money', just working as volunteer)
<artnay> Badm4n: CDs I meant... and they aren't "free", canonical is paying. so order a bunch of CDs and spread 'em in your neighbourhood
<artnay> now that's marketing ;D
<Badm4n> hmmmm
<artnay> mhz: volunteering? which projects?
<mhz> edubuntu and tecnocimiento
<artnay> sounds reasonable
<mhz> artnay: tecnocimiento is my project but 'the getting ready to get funds part' took us almost 4 months and now it is a terrible season to start carrying out the plan
<klepas> sorry i haven't been paying attention guys
<mhz> so i'll have to wait until march-april
<mhz> artnay: however, i am not complaining, please dont feel like that. I was just telling you.
<mhz> :)
<klepas> hey
<klepas> how many of you lot have read that general meeting mail?
<artnay> klepas: you would get replies if you had GMT time on it :)
<artnay> so, voting?
<klepas> voting on it?
<klepas> would be cool
<artnay> yeah, for time
<klepas> might set up a poll on my site
<artnay> let's use wiki so everyone can edit it, add their comments
<mhz> yeah, wiki rocks!
<mhz> klepas: i have not read it. when did you sen it?
<klepas> better idea
<klepas> 4-5 days ago
<artnay> a poll and comments? would be easier
* mhz reading logs..
<artnay> klepas: then, fridge?
<mhz> and a .ics file for meetings
<klepas> yep
<klepas> jdub
<klepas> Jeff Waugh (btw, who i am also meeting) has already agreed
<klepas> to put the event info on the fridge
<klepas> only condition
<klepas> we need to work out a time first =\
<mhz> klepas: hmm, i see no 'meeting' match in subjects regarding [-art] 
<mhz> (not in my inbox)
<klepas> mhz_BBS: neither in mine
<klepas> and i sent it
<klepas> so i am going to sent it again
<mhz_BBS> thx and sorry
<klepas> no worries
<klepas> i'm having the same problem
<artnay> http://www.lx-networks.de/sticker.php - this sticker thingie reminds me of something. back when AMD didn't have those with CPUs, people were able to order via web
<artnay> they sent all kind of stuff actually
<klepas> artnay: i'm going to beg Mark for some goodies
<klepas> so i'll bring that back with me
<klepas> and take some photos for you lot :D
<klepas> breezy posters...
<klepas> autographed Ubuntu CDs...
<klepas> :)
<artnay> klepas: take some Dappers, too
<klepas> ah, good idea
<klepas> :)
<klepas> mmhh
<klepas> i'd be happy to post some
<klepas> signed discs
<klepas> so if any of you lot want any
<klepas> i'd be happy to organise some
<klepas> and then talk with you individually later for sending them your way
<klepas> artnay: ? :)
<lukacu> klepas: one for me please :)
<klepas> rightio
<artnay> klepas: sure.
<klepas> Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
<klepas> and which architecture?
<artnay> Umh, I prefer KDE but Ubuntu as a name ;D
<lukacu> ubuntu / x86
<artnay> oh I wish Ubuntu Express would be stable when Dappers go wild
<klepas> alrighty
<klepas> artnay: so Kubuntu for you?
<klepas> i know Mark carries special copies around with him...
<artnay> one for me, please. ;D
<klepas> x86
<artnay> that's it
<artnay> live, that would be cool.
<klepas> :)
<klepas> no promises though guys
<klepas> i'll try my best, while not angering the MOTU!
<klepas> :P
<mhz> klepas: sorry.. i emptied the battery :)
<klepas> no worries
<klepas> mhz: i'll grab any necessary details off you all later
<mhz> klepas: you are sending it to the ML?
<klepas> once i come back and actually have the discs
<klepas> sending what to the ML? the General meeting info?
<mhz> yup
<klepas> will do later
<klepas> first i need some sleep
<klepas> good night folks
<klepas> Merry Christmas!
<artnay> mhz_bbl: 
<artnay> hey lukacu 
<lukacu> hey artnay
<lukacu> any progress on agenda wiki page?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-29
<lukacu> artnay: well ... i must go. must wake up early in the morning :)
<klepas> `mmh
* klepas has jut woken up
<klepas> ah well
<klepas> have a good one lukacu :)
<lukacu> good morning then klepas :)
<klepas> ;)
<lukacu> and good night ... see you tomorrow
<klepas> moin
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-30
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<mhz> klepas: hi there!
<mhz> 01:38 AM of sunday here in Chile
<mhz> you?
<klepas> 16:11
<klepas> be back in a little while
<klepas> got some hardware issues
<klepas> mhz: back :)
<klepas> anyone awake?
<lukacu> morning
<klepas> moin
<klepas> and Merry Christmas
<klepas> :)
<lukacu> hello klepas
<lukacu> and merry christmas
<omeg> Merry Christmas everyone
<klepas> so
<klepas> you guys
<klepas> when would you like the art meeting held?
<lukacu> 29. 12. somewhere between 0900 and 2300 GTM ... 
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> and we still have to write agenda
<klepas> i've written it
<klepas> all in that email
<klepas> i just need to find it from the archives
<klepas> and repost it
<klepas> because the mail server seemed to have some problems with it
<lukacu> ok
<lukacu> i will paste it in wiki agenda page and then send the link to the ml
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> cool
<klepas> hey
<klepas> where can i find the ubuntu-art ML archives?
<lukacu> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/
<klepas> oh
<klepas> thanks :)
<klepas> i'll send it out tonight
<mhz> moin
<mhz> klepas: can I suggest you propose 2 dates and times are best for you, and then we -esp. the ones know nothing about art but will follow the lead- just vote ?
<klepas> yep
<klepas> how about we set up a vote?
<klepas> i can set up a poll on my website
<mhz> cool
<mhz> or, the harder or less friendly way but keeping a moin record, would be we vote using Moin features for tables and icons
<mhz> :)
<klepas> yep
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> could you set that up?
<mhz> sure!
<mhz> my only doubt is if users will give some loving to it ;)
<mhz> well, Moin users, yes. We like moin very much so we appreciate these details
<klepas> moin?
<klepas> i know the expression
<klepas> but if it something else, then i'm confused :)
<mhz> heheh, the other use, klepas, is Moin = MoinMoin wiki, the technology we use in Ubuntu sites
<klepas> ah, :)
<mhz> klepas: ping
<mhz> klepas: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/ArtworkTeamMeetings
<mhz> edit as you need
* mhz will have breakfast now
* mhz bbl
<lukacu> mhz: good template, now all we have to do is to think of two proposals :)
<mhz> lukacu: hehe, indeed
<mhz> klepas, lukacu, artnay, guys: do you think ArtTeam should cover all 'art' aspects? wiki CSS, icons, logos, themes for all desktops (gnome, kde, xcfe, wmaker, fluxbox, fwm, etc), wallpapers, licensing issues, etc?
<mhz> luanchpad artwork?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> would be nice
<klepas> since the eventual goal of the art team is to work on all art
<artnay> umh
<artnay> hello guys
<klepas> hey artnay 
<klepas> Merry Christmas!
<artnay> mhz: I'd like to see more contributions on *box, E17 etc. themes in AUC
<artnay> klepas: did you request imagemagick?
<klepas> for AUC server?
<artnay> yes
<artnay> launchpad is proprietary so we should ask before doing anything
<klepas> yea
<klepas> for now
<klepas> wiki ought to do
<artnay> the main focus should be on GNOME desktop
<klepas> we're not that special
<klepas> artnay: for now
<artnay> right? at least most of ubuntu users do use G
<klepas> but once we unite KDE and XFCE people as well...
<mhz> launchpad is not Free as In freedom?????
<mhz> yup, could any of you 'the more active' people send an email to each desktop ML, please? 
<mhz> telling them you are cordinating a meeting we'd like them to attend?
<artnay> at least desktop team should be informed. they might do some dupe work
<artnay> little co-operation here
<mhz> IMHO, all art related team should coordinate stuff here and work 'locally' in their # if they want
<artnay> why isn't there any usability tests that both tango and oxygen would use? or is there?
<mhz> artnay: maybe you could ask in the Accessibility Team ML
<mhz> Henrik and others are real committed to a11y issues
<mhz> artnay: sorry
<mhz> I mean, you could email those guys, or if you want.. I paste the body (I am subscribed to that ML)
<artnay> sorry about what? :)
<mhz> .oO(but again... that is a subject that really needs help and I am too ignorant, so I follow their lead)
<mhz> inviting them to the art meeting
<mhz> they are trying to provide Ubuntu ready-to-use by people with physical problems
* klepas is doing the poll now :)
<klepas> done!
<klepas> everyone: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamMeetings
* mhz tabbing
<artnay> mhz: what about scim? :o
<klepas> and a new mail is out
<mhz> scim?
<klepas> done
<klepas> now we just wait
<mhz> cool, klepas, I will just edit a small typo
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:klepas] : Art Team meeting soon! Please place your vote on an applicable time slot now [https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamMeetings]  to make this meeting happen. Merry Christmas everyone! :)
<klepas> there we are :)
<artnay> umh
<klepas> did i miss something artnay ? :)
<artnay> artwork-todo should be updated and splitted into wiki pages 
<artnay> wiki rework, eh?
<klepas> yep
<klepas> btw
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/node/106
<klepas> :)
<mhz> klepas: we have a little issue
<klepas> mhz: yep?
<mhz> klepas: can I suggest we have a due date for voting?
<mhz> :)
<klepas> yes, good idea
<mhz> Otherwise, people will vote last hour
<mhz> or too late
<mhz> klepas: BUT
<mhz> don't edit yet, please
<mhz> I am there as well
<klepas> i know
<mhz> ;)
<mhz> oh
<klepas> i'm getting the warning :)
<mhz> right
<klepas> :)
<mhz> I love Moin wiki!
<mhz> now the BUT is:
<mhz> if 1st date is Tuesday 13 GMT...
<mhz> closing voting is Monday?
<mhz> and today is Sunday here :D
<lukacu> mhz: oh ... ive already cast my vote ... i hope it is ok
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> we'll see
<klepas> monday would be good
<mhz> thx for telling me, so can be cautious and copy my content before 'saving' (just in case)
<mhz> monday, klepas
<mhz> another issue
<mhz> is that standrard meeting calls are UTC
<mhz> (based on other ubuntu meetings
<mhz> klepas: so, what UTC time will we close voting?
<klepas> um
<klepas> what's the place in the world
<klepas> that is furthest behind
<mhz> hehehe, no idea :)
<klepas> because then it would be 23:59 UTC of that time
<mhz> I know Chile is currently UTC -3
<klepas> probably Greenwhich, England
<klepas> 20 UTC?
<klepas> http://mirror.linux.org.au/podcasts/la-update/laupdate_ep_12_20051224.ogg <--- 09:50 minutes into the show ;)
<mhz> which date is 13 GMT = UTC ?
<mhz> sorry!  which time is 13 GMT = UTC ?
* klepas is clueless
<klepas> mmh
<klepas> bet there is some sort of converter on the net
* mhz is saving changes so you see his idea for moin syntax
<klepas> yep
<lukacu> mhz: according to http://www.dxing.com/utcgmt.htm utc and gmt are the same...
<mhz> LOL!!!
<lukacu> if that was the question...
<klepas> any of you guys downloaded this -> http://mirror.linux.org.au/podcasts/la-update/laupdate_ep_12_20051224.ogg
<mhz> yup, lukacu 
<klepas> ?
<mhz> klepas: what is that ogg about?
<klepas> Linux Australia update
<klepas> has an interview with me in it
<klepas> :P
<klepas> 09:40-ish onwards
<lukacu> klepas: downloading it right now :)
<klepas> ;)
<klepas> basically...
<klepas> there is this thing called LCA
<klepas> Linux Conference Australia
<klepas> largest GNU/Linux and open source conference in the southern hemisphere
<klepas> the next one is on in 28 days
<klepas> 23rd January, 2006
<klepas> for 7 days
<klepas> Linus Torvald, Mark Shuttleworth, Andrew Fitzsimon and Jeff Waugh are just some of the people going
<klepas> and LA, Linux Australia, of which I am a member, has just had a member of the year award
<klepas> which someone nominated me for
<klepas> and now i seemed to have won
<lukacu> :D
<klepas> so i'll be attending LCA 2006 as well
<klepas> :)
* mhz is done with Moin syntaxis. He thinks it's ok now
* mhz gotta cook
<mhz> :(
<klepas> thanks mhz_BBL :)
<mhz_BBL> yw, klepas later on, I may also add a wiki page for the meeting in the url you pasted
<klepas> ah, rightio
<klepas> thanks so much
<lukacu> klepas: listening to the ogg... ;)
<klepas> much appreciated
<klepas> lukacu: yea... me + excitement = bad interview
<klepas> and i am very excited right now
* klepas will try to lynch as many Ubuntu related things from the conference, whether cds, posters, advertising things, bookmarks and whatnot else
* klepas will also try to get Mark Shuttleworth to sign an Ubuntu cd :)
<lukacu> klepas: 9:30 now
<lukacu> ;)
<klepas> :)
<klepas> what do you think? :)
<lukacu> it is a good interview but the quality of the ogg is a bit poor... i could not understand evrything
<lukacu> but then again i am not a native english speaker ;)
<klepas> yea
<klepas> connection wasn't all too good
<lukacu> but i ve got lots of info about you ... similar to reading a cv :)
<klepas> now you do, or you had?
<lukacu> what? ... now i have ... from this interview 
<klepas> ah, good :)
<klepas> hehe
<lukacu> why would i collect info about you before ;)
<klepas> lol
<klepas> i don't know
<klepas> it's all here [http://wombat.nuxified.com/about] 
<klepas> well the basics :)
<lukacu> i am not some kind of freak ... or like let say cia :D
<klepas> lol
<klepas> lukacu the stalker
<klepas> :P
<lukacu> however i thought you were older ... like 25 or something :)
<lukacu> dont know why realy
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> from the interview's voice
<klepas> or just from before?
<lukacu> from before and form the voice :)
<lukacu> s/form/from
<klepas> ah, rightio
<klepas> well...
<lukacu> and the part about german roots ... you have german roots or is germany just the place of your birth?
<klepas> born there
<klepas> and i am still german
<klepas> and we speak it at home
<klepas> other than that
<klepas> I am a citizen of the world!
<lukacu> lol
<klepas> i consider myself one
<klepas> not particularly drawn to Australia
<klepas> or Germany
<klepas> in patriotism
<klepas> i mean, lovely places
<klepas> but national pride of any country
<klepas> =non
<klepas> by the way
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/gallery/Photos/Graduation-Formal-2005/S4301470-small.jpg
<klepas> photo of me
<klepas> this year :)
<klepas> actually. this month
<lukacu> :)
<klepas> i guess i don't look 16 in that either, eh?
<lukacu> no :D
<klepas> what would you judge?
<lukacu> um? ... judge what?
<klepas> age
<klepas> from the picture
<lukacu> oh
<lukacu> i am not really goot at judging from pictures but id say 20
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> at least
* klepas laughs
<klepas> cool :)
<lukacu> mind though that i am realy not good at that ;)
<klepas> no problems :)
<klepas> alright
<artnay> umh, did I miss something? :)
<klepas> make sure you've voted
<klepas> both of you
* artnay reading
<klepas> see the topic
<lukacu> i have ... or at least i think i have :)
<klepas> :)
<klepas> time to sleep m'thinks
<klepas> good night/day
<klepas> and a Merry Christmas to all of you
<klepas> cheerio :)
<lukacu> good night klepas
<mhz_BBL> artnay: ping
<lukacu> hello mhz
<mhz> lukacu: hi
<mhz> so far.. thursday it is
<lukacu> yes
<lukacu> how can i see whole history of the page in moinmoin wiki?
<mhz> simple..
<mhz> lukacu: just the history of 1 page?
<lukacu> yes ... i am used to mediawiki
<mhz> then, click on GetInfo
<mhz> lukacu: mediawiki is very cool
<mhz> however, I have my strong point in favor of Moin ;)
<lukacu> simple indeed :D
<mhz> hehe
<mhz> that's the idea
<mhz> lukacu: did yo know that Moin data is 100% filed as plain text? so backing up is copy/paste process
<artnay> hey mhz
<lukacu> mhz: what do you mean by plain text? ... no database?
<mhz> artnay: good you are here
<artnay> mhz: you too :)
<mhz> lukacu: that's the magic of it. Moin devel guys did a very clever use of their Python Powers
<mhz> just plain text
<lukacu> nice
<mhz> but the front end is nice html :)
<lukacu> mhz: you have mentioned a wiki page for agenda before?
<mhz> yup, I am 3 minutes of creating such page
* mhz finishes reading inbox
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> ok, so next thing would be doing a wiki page of artwork-todo
<lukacu> yeah ... thats the agenda page i think ... or not?
<artnay> well the artwork-todo page there on the post is outdated
<artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000543.html
<artnay> and the copy is on klepas' server
<artnay> so if we want to edit that, let's do a wiki page of it
<artnay> because we need separate pages for all that stuff, maybe one could utilize the information that's been written there
<lukacu> ok
<artnay> is it too dirty if we paste it all to one page for now?
<artnay> it is, it should be separated now :)
<mhz> please guys, visit http://wiki.edubuntu.org/ArtworkTeamMeetings
<lukacu> it is ok if we put it on a single page ... just add some wiki syntax
<mhz> and also.. http://wiki.edubuntu.org/ArtworkTeamVoting
<artnay> mhz: that makes me wonder... it's out of ubuntu wiki
<mhz> hahaha
<mhz> nope
<mhz> not at all
<mhz> see same url and change for ubuntu instead
<mhz> and add https
<lukacu> and com
<mhz> all wikis in ubuntu sites
<mhz> share same /data dir
<artnay> silly me 
<mhz> not silly
<mhz> I had same problem the first time i saw it
<mhz> :D
<artnay> for fuck's sake!
<artnay> I was just writing a wiki page when FX locked up!
<artnay> and that happens only in GNOME, dammit
<artnay> FX is behaves 100 percently correct in KDE, IceWM, E17 and fluxbox
<lukacu> thats strange
<lukacu> it behaves (mostly) fine on my pc ... but hey, thats software ;)
<artnay> ok now
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList
<artnay> it's quite GNOME-centric
<artnay> now some [[BR}}ing :p
<artnay> or then not if I'm going to do typos like that
<artnay> yep, I definitely am
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> now it's time for a ciggie, after that I might try to get something done
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList
<artnay> I did some cleaning on it
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal - link to meeting added
<artnay> that page should be cleaned as well... :)
<mhz_thinking> artnay: i'll be able to take a look at it in about 1 hour, probebly :(
* mhz_thinking BBS
<artnay> mhz, still thinking? :)
<artnay> lukacu: any word of imagemagick?
<lukacu> no
<lukacu> no word from henrik at all
<lukacu> dont know what to do next
<artnay> same thing with the branding guide
<artnay> hope they could show up when the meeting takes place
<lukacu> yeah
<artnay> anyways, I've been informing people (Ubuntuforums members, desktop team on IRC) of the upcoming meeting
<lukacu> good work ... i think you should be a substitute leader of the team
<artnay> rather not
<artnay> hey lllmanulll 
<artnay> anyways, I mailed volvoguy
<lukacu> artnay: thats just my opinion
<artnay> lukacu: I'll do what I can, but I think I have some timing problems :(
<lukacu> oh ... what kind of timing problems?
<artnay> lukacu: work, girlfriend and such :p
<artnay> lllmanulll: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<lukacu> artnay: oh ... dont we all have that kind of timing problems ;)
<artnay> lllmanulll: there will be a meeting most probably on the 29th of Dec. hopefully you can participate!
<lllmanulll> Hey there :)
* lllmanulll wishes a merry christmas to everyone
<artnay> you too, mate
<lllmanulll> artnay : sure, I'll be tere :)
<lukacu> hohoho ... merry christmas to you too lllmanulll
<lllmanulll> artnay : will there be an announcement on the list ?
<artnay> lllmanulll: there already is, actually two of them
<nomed> hi all
<artnay> hi nomed
<lukacu> hello nomed
<nomed> i would try to make an ubuntu-artwork like package for my project ...
<nomed> is there any tut i can follow ?
<artnay> ask ogra, he has packaged that meta-package
<nomed> i see that ubuntu-artwork source has been made using some tool ..
<nomed> there are Makefile.am | in and so on ..
<artnay> no, sorry. actually apt-cache show gives me this: Maintainer: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
<artnay> although ogra is the packager of artwork team
<nomed> ogra ? :)
<nomed> are you available ... ?
<artnay>  /msg jdub, he likes all kind of bugging :p
<nomed> artnay, i see that in the roadmap there are even entries about metadistros .. it would be nice to have a tut about packaging metadistros' artworks ..
<nomed> hehehehe
<artnay> sounds like a tutorial that should be covered in /Artwork ;)
<artnay> nomed: what is your project? may I ask?
<nomed> http://www.dsslive.org.test.ibiblio.org/mediawiki/
<artnay> oh, nice. one for me, please.
<nomed> i'm organizing now the new home page ..
<nomed> i switched to mediawiki .. 
<nomed> and the "core" syuff is done .. time to fix the packages ...
<nomed> i need to generate a new trunk within svn for dsslive-artwork .. 
<nomed> and i link from there these images
<nomed> http://www.dsslive.org.test.ibiblio.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap-0.3-1:Menu#File_Managers
<nomed> that's way i need now to know how to generate such package
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-12-31
<artnay> that's a great project (well at least the aim is). I appreciate very much the work you've been doing
<artnay> how is the documentation? :o
<nomed> artnay, coming soon
<nomed> :)
<nomed> i'm the only devel .. and it quite an hard work ...
<artnay> I bet
<nomed> i've already done the bootup process the volume-manager and the installer
<nomed> well mainly the installer has been fixed from guadalinex liveinstaller
<nomed> bugs .. localization and some other stuff to work with dsslive
<nomed> but in these days i would play :P
<nomed> so artwork is fine ...
<artnay> I liked the screenshot. although it's blue, it's clean and quite modern, too. job well done :)
<artnay> hey mhz 
<mhz> artnay: hey
<artnay> had a brainstorm?
<artnay> :)
<mhz> not really, I needed to solve my personal issues regarding non free software
<artnay> anyways, some updates at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> here and there
<artnay> mhz: relating what?
* mhz tabbing
<artnay> or was/is it too personal? :o
<mhz> kind of
<artnay> well I'm not using 100 % pure FOSS, hopefully I will not get killed for that
<mhz> :)
<artnay> Tm_T: anyways, this is what I was talking about earlier: http://fitz.sourceforge.net/
* mhz read
* artnay compiles
<mhz> artnay: i think 1st top priority should be to unite *buntu art teams and encourage them to work together
<mhz> 2nd priority, yes... standarize wiki pages by *buntu falvour
<artnay> mhz: the problem is that there's no clear teams
<mhz> artnay: has this issue been discussed by CC?
<artnay> therefore Artteam (the contact page) could divide people into different sections (Ubuntu, Kubuntu *)
<artnay> mhz: I don't think so
<artnay> and as for Kubuntu, riddell said there's no any particular team at the moment
<mhz> then, we gotta make sure flavours leaders show up in the artwork meeting :)
<artnay> I don't think there are any leaders *g* it's just a bunch of people here and there in quite disorganized way doing contributions
<artnay> umh, where's my grammar checker
<mhz> then, we gotta make sure flavours leaders show up in the artwork meeting. Important: if not solved... we can use the ML
<mhz> artnay: ridell, kubuntu?  ogra, edubuntu, 
<artnay> and what about xubuntu?
<mhz> no idea
<artnay> they have this logo contest going on
<mhz> a11y, Henrik
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> wiki and www, highvoltage
<lukacu> interesting discussion, but i am really tired ... must ... go ... bed ... zzzzzzzzzz :)
<lukacu> good night all
<mhz> lukacu: sleep well
<artnay> g night, lukacu 
<artnay> well the meeting announce will be on the main page of the fridge
<artnay> but I still prefer mailing people, especially now during christmas time
<mhz> artnay: i can email henrik, edubuntu people, and highvoltage
<artnay> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXtst
<artnay> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<artnay> sorry
<mhz> ehehe
<artnay> mhz: sure, that would most probably bring some attention
<mhz> artnay: okis, but this will happen after dinner :(
<artnay> http://www.mockup.org/about
<nomed> artnay, i'm collaborating with that guy ... 
<nomed> since 3 days :)
<nomed> he's helping for qt stuff :)
<nomed> really nice project
<artnay> oh
<lukacu> hi
<klepas> hey lukacu 
<lukacu> hey klepas
<klepas> it seems thursday will be the most likely day for our meeting
<lukacu> yes ... i dont expect a dramatic turnover now :)
<lukacu> is thursday 2300 utc ok with you?
<klepas> it's not too bad
<klepas> :)
<lukacu> morning i guess?
<klepas> er.. ja :)
<lukacu> ja == yes ? :)
<klepas> yes :)
<klepas> sorry :)
<lukacu> well we use 'ja' as 'yes' in slovenian language though it has german roots
<lukacu> so it was not really difficult ;)
<klepas> German is my first language
<klepas> lukacu: http://wombat.nuxified.com/node/107 - Merry Christmas :)
<lukacu> thanks ... wait a moment ... ill upload my christmas card (it is in slovenian but the context is clear i guess)
<lukacu> klepas: http://colos.fri.uni-lj.si/luka/images/content/voscilnica2006.png ;)
<lukacu> dont know if you link christmas with snow in australia though... :)
<klepas> as a European, i surely do :)
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> lovely work :)
<klepas> the trees look lovely
<klepas> "2006"?
<lukacu> its for new year too :)
<lukacu> i worked on something else for days but then i changed the plan and inkscaped this really fast
<klepas> hehe :P
<klepas> came out rather well
<klepas> :)
<klepas> time for a shower
<lukacu> klepas: well i guess the next year is 2006?
<klepas> be back later
<lukacu> ok
<klepas> :)
<artnay> hey all
<lukacu> hello artnay
<artnay> hey lukacu 
<klepas> ahoy
<mhz> artnay: klepas: hi
<mhz> hi all
<mhz> klepas: iirc you sent an email inviting people to the artwork meeting
<mhz> or was it you artnay ?
<klepas> mhz: yes i have
<klepas> 2 so far
<klepas> and the mail server seems to be posting them into the archives
<klepas> which ought to mean they've been sent
<klepas> but their don't seem to be arriving in people's inboxes :(
<mhz> klepas: that mail was sent to art ML and ...?
<klepas> never arrives in people's inboxes
<klepas> =\
<lukacu> klepas: ive received both emails
<klepas> i've received neither. and i sent them
<lukacu> strange
<klepas> mhz: here's the online version: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000543.html
<klepas> mhz: also please see, ASAP! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
<mhz> klepas: yup, i inculded that url content in a wiki page
<klepas> :)
<klepas> sorry, i am forgetful
<klepas> and i'm sleepy
<mhz> klepas: so you sent it to kubuntu and art only
<klepas> no
<klepas> kubuntu-users and ubuntu-artwork
<klepas> by the way
<klepas> could someone contact Daniel Robitaille <robitaille@ubuntu.com> soon
<mhz> good, i am sending it to edubuntu, edubuntu-devel-es, ogra, highvoltage, ubuntu-users and ubuntu-marketing
<klepas> and kindly ask him to put up the winning poll option
<klepas> thanks :)
<klepas> coming back to that
<klepas> i will be going to sleep
<klepas> someone needs to mail Daniel Robitaille <robitaille@ubuntu.com>
<klepas> in about 4 hours if i am right
<mhz> klepas: i am
<klepas> and just tell him the meeting date
<klepas> and time
<klepas> as from that poll on the wiki
<klepas> in roughly 4 hours
<klepas> might be more
<mhz> yup, it seems thursday
<klepas> yeo
<klepas> *yep
<artnay> there's not much votes, wonder if there will be more...
<mhz> 6 votes is a hell of a democracy!
<klepas> lol
<lukacu> :)
<klepas> yea
<mhz> thanks god we have meritocracy ruling over democracy :)
<mhz> :)
<klepas> mhz: give the other people on the other mailing lists you're sending the mail to a bit of time to respond
<klepas> say make it 6 hours
<mhz> okis
<klepas> i'm at GMT/UTC +10
<klepas> and it's 02:04 now
<klepas> so  there is still over 6-8 hours left before the deadline we set
<klepas> that should give those people some time
<mhz> , so I betta move it to 23 UTC
<klepas> yep
<klepas> that sounds good
<klepas> thanks mhz 
<mhz> np
<mhz> as i said, this are the stuff i can do
<artnay> and there's actually 7 votes so far!
<mhz> giving opinions on art it's just a matter of liking or disliking, no art arguments :)
<mhz> cool!!
<klepas> this meeting is going to rock
<klepas> :)
<mhz> yes!!
* klepas awaits it
<lukacu> lol
<klepas> finally we will be able to get some organisation into the team
<mhz> klepas: I can invite my mom!
<klepas> so we can put mouse to canvas
<mhz> she'll always support me
<mhz> :)
<klepas> mhz: i've invited some people from the tango project along as well
<mhz> that's good idea
<klepas> and it seems some people from Linux Australia might also show
<artnay> klepas: what about andy? is he attending?
<klepas> someone from the kubuntu list mailed me asking us to create a kubuntu art package for universe
<artnay> I contacted bvc but he hasn't replied yet
<klepas> artnay: andy told me he's on holiday on Fraser island
<artnay> maybe I should send an email to him
<klepas> which is off the main continent of Australia
<artnay> but at least volvoguy will be there
<klepas> i don't think he has a net connection
<klepas> artnay: yes, that is important
<klepas> we might need to talk about a new art coordinator
<klepas> also, if Andy doesn't show
<klepas> i can relate everything to him at LCA in 27 days
<klepas> :)
<artnay> so he'll be releasing his icon set on the same day, right?
<klepas> we'll probably spend a few late nights at the university college accommodation hacking away :)
<klepas> artnay: it's supposed to be a surprise, but yep :)
<klepas> shh!
<klepas> :)
* klepas is excited
<klepas> by the way guys
<mhz> what's the diff between https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList
<mhz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<klepas> mhz: one is the list which artnay composed
<mhz> hehe, yes.
<klepas> essentially acting as the agenda for the meeting
<klepas> :)
<artnay> mhz: Proposal was meant to be the main page, List is just to get those things editable by all
<artnay> jhmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
<mhz> but oh, i see.
<artnay> damn you cat!
<klepas> ;)
<mhz> hihi
<klepas> by the way guys
<klepas> the big "project" i want to work on after the meeting
<klepas> is composing a ubuntu and kubuntu art package for universe
<klepas> we've already got the green lights from ogra
<klepas> and i am sure no one will have anything against some packaged kubuntu art either :)
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTitle
<artnay> that one doesn't mention how to get it via apt
<artnay> (sudo apt-get install ttf-ubuntu-title, it's in Universe)
<klepas> alrighty guys
<klepas> i'm going to be off
<klepas> i need the sleep
<artnay> mhz: we could still remove all unnecessary text from /ArtowkrTodoProposal and rename it as /Artwork
<artnay> g night
<klepas> mhz: remember to send that mail! it's utterly vital!!!
<klepas> well mails
<klepas> :)
<mhz> klepas: night
<mhz> dont worry
<klepas> :)
<mhz> I am on it at this very moment
<artnay> mhz: and then we could start the /UbuntuArtwork page from scartch, move things from /ArtworkTodoList there and some other sites that haven't been linked well
<klepas> mhz: especially the one to Daniel Robitaille <robitaille@ubuntu.com> in 6-8 hours :)
<mhz> artnay: good idea I'll finish my 3 pending emails and that's next
<lukacu> night klepas
<mhz> artnay: correction! good idea I'll finish my 4 pending emails and that's next
<mhz> :)
<klepas> enjoy the holidays folks :)
<artnay> :)
<artnay> you too, klepas 
<mhz> no holiday here
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/node/107
* mhz loves to work
<klepas> :)
<artnay> yep, I have work tomorrow...
<artnay> this is just having fun
<mhz> indeed
<artnay> mhz: first of all, we should have an idea what parts of /ArtworkTodoList could be used in all the projects
<artnay>  /ArtworkTodoProposal should have a short summary and all mentioned links should work
<artnay> but we still have some time left before the meeting
<artnay> that would be a goal for us, get it done before the meeting
<artnay> anyways, I'm cooking now
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> i am about to cook once i send those 3 mails left
<mhz> artnay: i do agree with you, though
<mhz> after lunch, i can definately work on ideas for 'to do'
<mhz> mails to danielle and 'the rest' already sent
<artnay> done but now I have to eat and then leave. I'll be back later :o
<artnay> bye
<artnay> mhz: job well done :9
<mhz> c ya later artnay 
<mhz> art.ubuntu.com
<mhz> r those guys here?
<lukacu> mhz: i am one of the admins of auc ...
<mhz> re
<mhz> lukacu: why not all artists upload SVG or source files in AUC ?
<lukacu> mhz: dont know
<lukacu> the bigger problem are those who upload just svg file
<lukacu> it is much harder to create a thumbnail out of a svg
<lukacu> that is one of the reasons we have about 30 pending submissions ...
<lukacu> and thats why we need a good faq for the auc ... guidelines and so
<mhz> gee
<mhz> work looks much more than just organizing stuff :(
<mhz> ok.
<mhz> lukacu: and why authentification is same as for ubuntu sites?
<lukacu> is it?
<lukacu> damn, still only seven votes ...
<lukacu> we have more than 30 members and more than 20 of them are ... asleep?
<mhz> hehe
<mhz> it's always same old story
<mhz> that's why meritocracy rules
<mhz> so, if others dont participate, I dont accept compaints :)
<lukacu> :)
<mhz> 2.5 hrs to end voting
<lukacu> and counting... ;)
<lukacu> well it doesnt really matter ... the importiant thing is that we start working
<lukacu> others will wake up later ... i guess
<mhz> yup
<mhz> other will show up
<mhz> lukacu: maybe you can clarify this to me.. is this Artwork Team or Art ?
<mhz> lukacu: maybe you can clarify this to me.. is this Artwork Team or Art Team ?
<mhz> I meant :)
<lukacu> dont know ... let me see the announce email
<lukacu> it says Artwork Team :)
<lukacu> and i think thats better
<lukacu> art team sounds like a bunch of artist doing their performaces and istallations ;)
<mhz> lukacu: then, we gotta modify all places it says ArtTeam (like in AUC)
<mhz> hehehehe
<lukacu> and we are doing some serious work here ;)
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> Ubuntu performances!
<mhz> UP day!
<mhz> :D
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> i guess we have to ... create a redirect and all that
<mhz> so, I'll redirect ArtTeam wiki page to ArtworkTeam
<mhz> kamstrup: hi
<mhz> kamstrup: did you vote?
<kamstrup> mhz, no...
<kamstrup> cheers anyway :-)
<mhz> hehehe
<lukacu> kamstrup: vote! ... it is your right, your duty ;)
<kamstrup> hehe
<kamstrup> i will i will
<mhz> how many of you guys have signed the Code Of Conduct and therefore are Ubunteros?
* kamstrup is visiting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamMeetings
<lukacu> cool ... we have 8 votes now :)
* mhz hughs kamstrup, the voter
<lukacu> lol
<lukacu> brb
<kamstrup> voted thursday
<lukacu> good
<mhz> lukacu: page redirecting ok
<mhz> lukacu: so, have you signed CC?
<lukacu> nope ... not yet
<lukacu> ive not been a really active member of the community before the art team
<lukacu> ... artwork team ... sorry ;)
<mhz> heheh
<lukacu> what do you need to sign the cc?
<mhz> but you are and WILL be right?
<lukacu> well i hope so :)
<mhz> CC is a commitment to Ubuntu meaning
<mhz> thats #1 requirement
<mhz> if you can do that and feel commited then just read the CC and sign it (digitally or with pen and fax it)
<mhz> Danten: hi there
<mhz> Danten: please vote for out meeting
<mhz> out =our
<lukacu> mhz: yeah ... now i remember why i have not sign it yet
<Danten> oh
<lukacu> i am lazy ;)
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> good point
<lukacu> and i dont have digital certificate
<mhz> not a problem
<lukacu> will have to get one i guess
<mhz> there's a nice HowTo
<mhz> and no need of certificate, just your gpg key
<lukacu> Danten: vote!
<lukacu> :D
<kamstrup> I added a time-conversion link to the meeting wiki page
<lukacu> bachler: hi
<bachler> hiho
<bachler> merry xmas
<lukacu> bachler: vote -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
<lukacu> merry xmas to you too
<lukacu> bachler: your vote does matter ;)
<bachler> then ill just not vote :-P
<lukacu> kamstrup: good work
<lukacu> bachler: nooooooo ;)
<mhz> kamstrup: very good tip
<mhz> and I just added a command line way :D
<bachler> hmm, im a bit busy.. i have to fix some stuff, i just orderd a new box.. dual opteron242, 1gb ecc/reg dd400 ram.. gainward 6600gt goldensample :-)
<bachler> xmas present for myself
<lukacu> well its less than a minute of your time ... if you intend to be at the meeting
<mhz> bachler: ok, dont vote but do you think you cn make it to the meeting?
<bachler> can't promise anyting, but ill try
<mhz> thx
<lukacu> great
<bachler> i mean.. the world could go under :-P
<mhz> hehehe
<lukacu> lol
<mhz> under M$???
<bachler> yeah.. that would be the same thing..
<bachler> if all goes as planed im setting up my new box then
<mhz> bachler: excellent box to help with new ideas in Artwork team :)
<bachler> yeah
<bachler> gimp is a theraded app, so itll work gooood on my dual optys
<lukacu> mhz: where is that HowTo now?
* mhz getting it
<artnay> ping mates!
<artnay> lukacu: which HowTo? :)
<mhz> pong artnay 
<artnay> oh, lots of text... /me reads
<lukacu> something about certificates and ubnutu cc ... nothing art related
<artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20051226/2fbd8270/dapperproposal3-0001.jpg
<artnay> those open office icons bother me on a plain gnome-panel
<lukacu> i like the thunderbird icon
<artnay> maybe I just have too small monitor :(
<artnay> umh, it's a bit too hostile although you could link it to something african
<lukacu> oo.org icons really have too many details
<artnay> and I don't understand that document
<artnay> the next will be most likely based on Tango, some patience please :)
<mhz> lukacu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GPGKey
<mhz> and..
<artnay> are you posting something on ML?
<lukacu> what should we post there?
<artnay> I don't know, just thought you're going to sign something
<artnay> and you mentioned a HowTo
<mhz> artnay: he may consider becoming an ubuntero by signing CodeOfConduct
<artnay> sounds reasonable
<mhz> lukacu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<mhz> latter has even an example of signing CC
<lukacu> ql
<lukacu> now all i have to do is read this and stop being lazy ;)
<mhz> hehhe
<mhz> and vote! :)
<mhz> lukacu: artnay:
<mhz> in your expert opinions
<lukacu> lol ... my "expert" opinion
<mhz> what would be the logical steps to follow by people who would like to create themes for GNOME?
<mhz> Go where, do/read what?
<mhz> I am meeting potential Chilean volunteers, they are Graphic designers
<mhz> so.. I need to email them with instructions/tips/suggestions in Spanish
<artnay> to tell the truth, I don't have any GNOME docs nearby
<artnay> who uses GNOME anyway? *g*
<artnay> no, just joking
<mhz> it's that they will help me for Edubuntu
<mhz> :)
<mhz> and Edubuntu default is GNOME :(
<artnay> G 2.8... I so wanted to like it, but no. I even prefer XFCE over G
<artnay> what parts were you thinking?
<lukacu> yeah ... gnome is really annoying sometimes
<artnay> it's not very well documented, I afraid :(
<artnay> or then I just should learn to use google more efficiently
<mhz> ?
<artnay> ask them to do some changes in gnome-panel :)
<lukacu> mhz: i am afraid i cannot help you ... i am using gnome but thats all
<mhz> well, afaik, ogra has been working on a menu generated by profiles
<artnay> mhz: what kind of designers are they?
<mhz> hmm graphic
<mhz> they are studying at university
<artnay> mhz: posters? stamps? :)
<mhz> ohhh
<mhz> web sites, campaigns, marketing, posters, paper, envelopes, logos, etc
<artnay> hmh, maybe they should take a look at Tango project unless they already are familiar with it
<artnay> show Ubuntu to these guys and have a list of different processes
<artnay> then ask their opinions. or do some sort of usability test... I don't know, they are your friends after all :)
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> okis
<mhz> so, today we have no 'guidelines' for designers who want to collaborate with artwork?
<lukacu> nope ... do we behave like we do?
<lukacu> ;)
<lukacu> i hope we will clear this thing at the meeting
<mhz> indeed
<artnay> I hope one of the janes could attend
<lukacu> but then again: we have so many thigns to discuss that the meeting could last ... days ;)
<artnay> canonical should publicize a branding guide
<mhz> artnay: they'll hire a professional company of designers, afaik.
<artnay> mhz: I've heard of that, but they still do want to have community artwork
<mhz> indeed
<artnay> and we haven't seen what Andy is doing atm
<mhz> that's why I agree on the importance of next meeting
<artnay> and it's never been announced anywhere
<artnay> that should be a part of their branding guide
<mhz> artnay: that's one of my other 'thinking' issues ;)
<lukacu> is the voting closed now?
<mhz> no 100% bazaar 
<mhz> 3 minutes to go, AFAIK
<lukacu> lol
<lukacu> hurry folks! :P
<mhz> heheheh
<mhz> yeah, sure!
<mhz> Mon Dec 26 22:58:45 UTC 2005
<mhz> Mon Dec 26 22:59:12 UTC 2005
<lukacu> ...
<mhz> lukacu: difficult part will be the time consuming 'counting votes'
<mhz> :D
<lukacu> lol
<mhz> Mon Dec 26 22:59:44 UTC 2005
<mhz> Mon Dec 26 22:59:59 UTC 2005
<mhz> okis!
<lukacu> :D
<artnay> ok, how should /artwork be done?
<mhz> Pople: No more voting please!
<lukacu> write that on the voting page
<artnay> top category: news, latest changes in /artwork* pages
<artnay> TOC on the right side
<artnay> introduction/ a short summary
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-01
<artnay> and below that could all the links (which are easily navigated using TOC the first time you see the page)
<artnay> mhz: could you help with the latest changes section?
<artnay> *please* :)
<mhz> yes, but I still can't finish my last email (been 1 hour or so) to those designers
<artnay> any better ideas?
<mhz> as soon as I have dinner.. sure
<mhz> and after i finish the email :D
<mhz> artnay: lukacu: you lost me
<mhz>  which /artwork ?
* mhz BRB
<artnay> the main page for all that
<lukacu> well yeah ... but every time you start explaining that i get lost ... could you write it or perhaps even sketch it :)
<lukacu> shematic ...
<artnay> why not just do it? ;)
<lukacu> well i am sure it is a good solution ... so its fine with me
<artnay> lukacu: in which sentence did you lost me? 
<lukacu> i think it was the "links" one
<artnay> oh, below that would be all the topics that are currently listed at /Artwork
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> ok
<artnay> such as *buntu artwork, FAQ, Contact etc.
<lukacu> is that proposal a part of agenda?
<artnay> lukacu: what do you mean?
<lukacu> well we will confirm this structure at the meeting?
<lukacu> or will we reorganize wiki before?
<artnay> and what should be done with the default themes, icon sets and such? some of them have to be removed (in order to save space) and offered as debian packages
<artnay> right? but which ones?
<artnay> lukacu: it would be nice to have a better layout and  some separation before the meeting
<lukacu> i concur
<mhz_BRB> does 'ubuntu-calendar' only work on GNOME?
<artnay> there could be kubuntu-calendar ;)
<mhz_BRB> but have you ever seen what that is for?
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList - updated
<artnay> mhz_BRB: it changes your background in GNOME when the month changes
<artnay> it could be revieved
<mhz_BRB> booh, I thought it was something better ;)
<mhz_BRB> thx artnay 
<artnay> mhz_BRB: so
<artnay> could we have a "recent changes in *Artwork* pages" on the main page?
<artnay> I guess it's already possible but how? :)
<lukacu> well ... i need some sleep ... see you all tomorrow then :)
<mhz_BRB> artnay: i dont understand, sorry
<artnay> bye lukacu 
<mhz_BRB> lukacu: sleep well
<lukacu> good night
<mhz_BRB> artnay: can you gimme an example of your mind
<mhz_BRB>     *
<mhz_BRB>       Development discussion is taking place at [WWW]  http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel and #xubuntu on irc.freenode.net
<mhz_BRB>       You are welcome to join if you want to make Xubuntu a superb desktop solution!
<artnay> mhz_BRB: ok, let's have a news section (meeting on the 29th, new background project started etc.) as the first element of /Artwork
<artnay> below that could be a link that would show all changes in pages that contain *Artwork* and maybe related sites (think as dependencies)
<mhz_BRB> artnay: i do apologyze but I still can't quite follow you
<artnay> after that (or before the news section) could be a short summary
<mhz_BRB> ohhh
<mhz_BRB> I know there's a macro that shows up all pages in CategoryArtwork, for instance
<artnay> and then links to all those subjects that need their own page (*buntu artwork, FAQ, Contact...)
<mhz_BRB> is that what you mean?
<mhz_BRB> .oO(it seems i am either too tired or too slow now. I still cant follow)
<mhz_BRB> BRB
<mhz_BRB> (cooking)
<artnay> well, that link would open a new page which lists last changes in pages that contain phrase *Artwork* in title
<artnay> and project pages need dependencies, too.
<artnay> like Firefox theme would depend on icons etc.
<artnay> unless this process can be easily and publicily tracked, it will fail :(
<artnay> well it's not like changes in kernel, but still it should be easily tracked
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList - updated
<artnay> it's 02:30 AM here, I'm off. ciao!
<mhz> artnay: saw topic in #ubuntu-meeting
<mhz> daniel did it
<mhz> artnay: is artwork a team in LaunchPad?
<mhz> klepas: hi there
<mhz> I have sent an email to Jani Monses or something.
<mhz> he's the admin of Xubuntu team in LP
<klepas> nice
<klepas> thanks :)
<klepas> i get that email from Daniel
<klepas> Artwork meeting in 3 days! :)
<mhz> me is sleepy
<mhz> but replied at least 40 mails and worked 4 hours on a @#$% report
<mhz> so I think is enough for one day.
<klepas> :)
<klepas> i'm actually in my school holidays currently
<klepas> i graduated from high school and begin college next year so i have 8 weeks holidays!
<klepas> :)
<klepas> and i try to do something productive each and everyday :)
<klepas> so i reckon it sounds like you've had a good day
<klepas> :)
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> that cheers me up
<mhz> well, bye klepas
<artnay> g morning artworkers
<klepas> moin
<klepas> meeting has been confirmed :)
<klepas> Thursday the 29th of December. 23:00 UTC
<klepas> and someone kindly posted on that page how to determine the date in UTC :)
<klepas> $ date -u
<klepas> :)
<artnay> yeah, I fired my fx and it showed that information :9
<artnay> thanks anyway
<klepas> :)
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList - I updated that one last night (4-5 hours ago)
<klepas> cool
<klepas> i'll browse it later :)
<klepas> check out ubuntux.org
<artnay> and we discussed about the structure of /Artwork
<klepas> cool
<artnay> you should check the log as you don't hang on IRC 24/7
<artnay> and give your opinions
<klepas> i know the guy from ubuntux.org - Friedrich - and he's asked me to write about Ubuntu a wee bt
<klepas> *bit
<klepas> tought after the meeting we might update the world on the happenings of the Ubuntu Art Team :)
<klepas> s/tough/thought
<artnay> I thought we could that beforehand
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> so are you up for that?
<klepas> interested in writing a cooperative article for him?
<klepas> updating the happenings of the art team as a direct result of that meeting :)
<artnay> sorry, to whom?
<artnay> oh
<artnay> friedrich... sorry, I guess I wasn't paying attention there
<klepas> well?
<artnay> what sort of article? I'm interested although my grammar might not be fluent enough :)
<klepas> that's what i'm there for
<klepas> basically we write in article format what's been happening with Ubuntu, art wise
<klepas> and talk about what we discussed in the meeting
<klepas> and he seems to be very interested about the posibility of a Ubuntu/Kubuntu art package for universe
<artnay> oh, so bits of history, eh?
<artnay> volvoguy should be involved
<klepas> yea
<klepas> i can mail volvoguy about this
<klepas> at least the article
<klepas> actually
<klepas> i'll mail him too about the meeting
<artnay> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-artwork-2005-12-26.html
<klepas> i'm not sure he is aware of it
<artnay> take a look at the end section
<artnay> klepas: he is, he gave his vote
<artnay> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-artwork-current.html
<artnay> mhz and I discussed about the structure
<klepas> nice
<klepas> to be completely honest, I'm not that wiki crazed
<artnay> any ideas and improvements are more than welcome
<klepas> i mean if there is someone else who is more interested in doing it/editing it i am happy to let them have their fun
<klepas> and i don't particularly mind about the structure
<artnay> sure, but at least tell us what you think
<klepas> what you proposed the first time I was quite content with
<artnay> I do, as it is currently unacceptable
<artnay> if the information is hidden somewhere, we won't get new artworkers. let's provide a clear picture of what's happening with artwork and how to help 
<klepas> agreed
<klepas> i am more interested in fixing AUC
<klepas> because right now it is a pain to maintain
<artnay> I actually added something concerning AUC to TodoList last night
<klepas> and the Ubuntu/Kubuntu art packages for unierse
<klepas> lovely
<klepas> i'll browse it
<artnay> yeah, and while you're at it, edit if needed
<klepas> yea
<klepas> actually
<klepas> got a lot of things to do now
<klepas> i want to read those two logs
<artnay> sure, take your time
<klepas> skim a cooperative article i am writing along with a whole bunch of others on libervis.com
<artnay> it's not we would do it now
<klepas> and then check that todolist
<klepas> ;)
<artnay> I just got to work, now I'm checking my mails and IRCing
<klepas> :)
<artnay> slept 3 hours... terrible
<klepas> same
<klepas> but then i went back to bed for another 3 :)
<artnay> now don't tell me about it! :D
<klepas> i guess though they don't let you sleep at work, eh? :P
<artnay> been there done that
<klepas> ^_~
<artnay> hey megabyte405 and robertl 
<klepas> Tm_T: ping
<artnay> should we spread the word about meeting on ubuntuforums?
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1940
<artnay> well at least ubuntuforums now has a proper link :)
<klepas> yea
<klepas> saw that
<klepas> i've got an account on ubuntuforums
<klepas> though i'm not overly keen on forums with a massive diversity of people
<artnay> now don't we all have at least one? ;p
<artnay> no, seriously. ubuntuforums is mostly for screenshots although bvc is attending there
<klepas> yea
<klepas> I just have had bad experiences in the past with forums
<klepas> when they get too diverse you get a lot of different opinions
<klepas> and chances are people with thin nerves, bad days and aggressive behaviour will be present
<artnay> :)
<klepas> which can ruin the atmosphere quite quickly
<klepas> that's usually about the time i leave
<artnay> well if it gets too dirty, just /kick
<artnay> like personal insults without proper arguements and things like that
<klepas> yea
<klepas> but it's bound to happen again
<klepas> and i'm not usually a forum admin at that point
<klepas> ack
<klepas> that fitz.sf.net project
<klepas> not my cup of tea :)
<artnay> why not?
<klepas> too ugly :P
<klepas> i mean... my icewm theme is as far as i go :P
<artnay> oh you meant the deco
<artnay> I didn't like it either
<klepas> ah, lol
<artnay> I just wanted to get one element off from konqueror so it wouldn't be too crowded
<artnay> as I don't use menus that often, mostly shortcuts. and if I have to use menus, they're still there
<klepas> i have all toolbars for all konqueror profiles
<klepas> i want my power :)
<klepas> got another person to join in on the meeting
<klepas> :)
<artnay> who?
<klepas> there are probably going to me more people not on the art team present than there are of us
<klepas> Karin Purser from Linux Australia
<artnay> oh yeah, I spoke with her
<artnay> he visited here some time ago
<klepas> you did?
<klepas> she?
<artnay> he? eh?
<klepas> She
<klepas> Karin Purser
<klepas> :)
<artnay> of course, my mistake :o
<klepas> so what did she say?
<artnay> just wanted to have a chat with you
<artnay> but you were offline
<klepas> yea
<klepas> i know what she was after :P
<klepas> she wanted some help about apps
<klepas> graphic apps
<klepas> :)
<artnay> inkscape/gimp? I could use some help as well :)
<klepas> serious?
<artnay> http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20051223114511873
<artnay> serious help? sure, why not :)
<artnay> mp3 support OOB with gstreamer 0.10... can't wait for dapper
<artnay> no, wait... I'm running dapper
<klepas> so what are you after for inkscape/gimp
<artnay> I should spent more time with those applications
<klepas> yep
<klepas> :)
<klepas> brb
<artnay> I find myself searching for options and tools, then I'm browsing the help file and after that googling...
<klepas> gonna grab a coffee
<artnay> aMSN with webcam support... whatta ya know
<klepas> arts made X die
<klepas> grr
<artnay> why not just have screen and irssi combination? :p
<artnay> brb
<klepas> screen and irssi combination?
<artnay> or some bouncer
<artnay> just have a stable server and set irssi or bouncer there, then connect using ssh (text-based) or ssl secured connection (GUI, no need to change your fav IRC software)
<artnay> run irssi in screen, that way X won't crash your IRC connection :o
<artnay> https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=313&application=firefox - https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=1342&application=firefox
<artnay> does the latter one work on your distro?
<klepas> no idea
<klepas> should i try?
<artnay> why not :9
<klepas> remember i suse konqueror the most :P
<artnay> I'm on XP now :(
<klepas> ah, rightio
<artnay> http://albin.abo.fi/~jkniivil/junk/hmm.png
<klepas> it works
<klepas> but i don't like it
<artnay> oh, ok. thanks for confirming
<mhz> hey, I have just sent an email inviting xubuntu-devel ML
<lukacu> hi mhz
<mhz> lukacu: moin
<mhz> BTW, i am using XFCE and ... it kind of looks decent but I don't see all tools to tweak winsow colors not menus :(
<lukacu> i think we will have more people that are not members of the team at the meeting than those who are :)
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> and this team should be created in LaunchPad
* mhz still feels uncomfortable with LP being propietary
<lukacu> :) ... yeah, i know that feeling
* mhz sighs
<mhz> lukacu: what if we just don't use LP?
<mhz> would that be too bad?
* mhz is even considering resigning to his LP team memberships and admin groups
<lukacu> well ... i dont use it ... ive seen it like 3 times and thats all
<lukacu> :)
<mhz> on second thoughts... why do I have to have a LP account (based on non-free software) to collaborate and edit 'freedom' as in a wiki scenario?
* mhz is complaining at #launchpad
<lukacu> lol ... it really bugs you doesnt it?
<mhz> YES!
<mhz> if it were 'optional' for people like me or you who don't make money out of their contributions, it would be lots different
<lukacu> mhz: a tehnical question... can i just apt-get xfce in ubuntu and then change session at login?
<mhz> but since we are forced to have an account to access the chance to contribute... that's a diff story
<mhz> yup
<mhz> lukacu: I have almost all desktops here :)
<lukacu> ok ... i am tired of gnome ... must try out something more lightweight
<lukacu> mhz: xfce4 ?
<artnay> xubuntu-desktop
<lukacu> thanks artnay
<artnay> mhz: so is it possible to have a link to recent changes of *Artwork* pages?
<artnay> we don't have much time left
<artnay> we should renew wiki pages before the meeting
<lukacu> im afraid i can not help much ... i must study :(
<lukacu> exams soon after new year :(
<klepas> hey guys
<klepas> :)
<artnay> oh, what sort of exams?
<lukacu> hello klepas
<artnay> ping klepas 
<klepas> what's happening?
<lukacu> artnay: well i study computer science so that kind of exams ;)
<artnay> lukacu: circuits? networks? are you speacialized in something already?
<lukacu> no ... my specialization is computer software ... but the big exam is economics :)
<artnay> hehe, well have fun with that one ;p
<mhz> artnay: was your idea (the one I nvever got last night) to have WikiPages/WikiSubPages ?
<artnay> mhz: yes
<artnay> mhz: read the log if you missed something
<artnay> and if I didn't make myself clear, just ask :)
<artnay> hi trevorv 
<trevorv> hullo :)
<artnay> I suppose you are one of the notorious Xubuntu users ;)
<artnay> read the post on ML?
<trevorv> i am, and very much a user rather than developer at the moment! its changing though. just read the post, and thought id join the channel, although my gimp and inkscape skills are pretty primitive
<artnay> that really doesn't matter in this point. anyways, take a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<klepas> welcome trevorv 
<trevorv> thanks klepas
<klepas> you are aware of a meeting taking place at 2300 hundred hours, UTC, this thursday?
<artnay> klepas: we should probably build /UbuntuArtwork to be an example
<trevorv> klepas, i am, ill try and be there if i can
<mhz> artnay: this log is not being kept in URL log, afaik
<mhz> artnay: however, I did read your changes in wiki
<klepas> guys
<mhz> and I have to say, subpages are TOO dangerous for a wiki
<klepas> Andy Fitz will be missing out
<klepas> just talking to him now
<artnay> why build /UbuntuArtwork? it should be an example to other teams, how to build /*buntuArtwork
<klepas> hi AndyFitz 
<artnay> mhz: read the log that ubuntulog is gathering
<artnay> mhz: I know, therefore we should find some sort of balance
<AndyFitz> g'day 
<artnay> hello
<AndyFitz> not able to make the thursday meeting.  so I thought id get in now...
<artnay> hehe, any news?
<AndyFitz> the points I wanted to raise are:   tango icons and visual metaphors are the best contribution outside of calendar wallpapers and  boot/ gtm logins that we can make 
<AndyFitz> the reason being is that I'm still not 100% that my method will work ( its working so far but the best direction for energy would be to help the tango projects contributions  (almost alll good vector illustrations are easily re-stylable  )
<artnay> AndyFitz: why? have you heard some news?
<AndyFitz> also the visual metaphors are damn important 
<AndyFitz> they are the more controversial part of icons 
<AndyFitz> so  even thinking about them is a great contribution
<artnay> what about metacity? sound effects? screensavers?
<AndyFitz> tango is a good project and is building a technical implementation that makes naming icons more sense.  so if you don't have illustrative skills a great way to help is to look at their specs and describe a good illustration as best and simply as you can 
<artnay> isn't it freedesktop naming scheme? or was tango project the first one to propose it?
<AndyFitz> artnay.  metacity grocking is a good thing to play with but  I have no idea where it will go
<artnay> I thought they were the first one to implement it
<klepas> AndyFitz: i think you're right here however there are other very important other 'projects' as well, such as a universe ubuntu/kubuntu art package :)
<AndyFitz> klepas right,  so I'm going to hopefully have some great train reading material from the meeting logs ;-)
<klepas> so re-directing any people wanting to work on icons to the Tango project for now sounds good
<klepas> yep
<klepas> AndyFitz: we can talk more about it at LCA
<klepas> where i also hope to pick up a few Inkscaping tips, btw :)
<artnay> AndyFitz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList - there's a list of projects that should be taken into account
<AndyFitz> klepas.  yes because no efforts get wasted.   if  concepts are not good enough for tango.  they are good enough for OCAL  .. if they are not good enough for OCAL    they are good enough to self-host      ( the great thing about art is once a human touches a canvas of any kind it is likely to end up useful to someone else )
<klepas> if licensed appropriately, yep
<klepas> btw, OCAL?
<AndyFitz> artnay yep.  that document has been in my bookmarks :)  please use it as closely to the agenda as possible
<Tm_T> klepas: pong
<AndyFitz> klepas  openclipart.org
<AndyFitz> the catch there is its not CC-sharealike   its public domain
<Tm_T> artnay: what?
<artnay> Tm_T: remember when we spoke of moving the the menu bar into windec (sort of OS X style, but that way it wouldn't take extra space outside of the window)
<klepas> that's of no worries to me
<Tm_T> artnay: aah, I'll check that
<Tm_T> artnay: ah yes, have seen those earlier, there's multiple windecos like that :)
<klepas> brb
<AndyFitz> guys I've got to head.  going to byron bay early tomorrow morning to meet girlfriends parents ( cannot be a zombie ).    take care and I'm sorry for my crappy attendance
<trevorv> could anyone recommend me a good starting point for learning how to modify gtk themes? i want to have a play around with some colours
<artnay> hehe, don't worry and have where ever you're heading. bye!
<trevorv> bye AndyFitz
<AndyFitz> seeya artnay, trevorv, klepas, all
<artnay> trevorv: does gnome.org offer any documentation?
<artnay> I've found the documentation to be lacking on some projects
<trevorv> im just having a look there now, i presume it would be exactly the same for gnome and Xfce?
<artnay> well they both use gtk
<mhz> I have a gnome wiki url for GTK
* Tm_T is wondering why klepas pinged him
<artnay> now did you pong?
<artnay> :)
<Tm_T> yes
<trevorv> aah, i have found a tutorial on gnome.org :)
<Tm_T> artnay: 1440
<trevorv> im off for lunch, ill be back in a while
<artnay> I'm leaving as well
<artnay> later!
<Tm_T> aye
<klepas> Tm_T: just wanted to know whether you're around
<klepas> i also needs some help, after the art meeting :)
<klepas> trevorv: enjoy lunch
<Tm_T> klepas: ok, I've been away from home now over a week
<Tm_T> and will be couple days, I'm available again in next year :)
<klepas> lovely
<klepas> well as you might have heard
<klepas> we have been given the ok by ogra to make an Ubuntu art package for the universe repositories
<klepas> and i've been approached by kubuntu users requesting one for Kubuntu as well (this KDE)
<Tm_T> KDE <3
<Tm_T> hey, I'm Kubuntu user ;)
<klepas> Tm_T: i use KDE predominately in the momeny
<klepas> so i am keen on both of these possible packages
<klepas> i just need some help
<klepas> we can use already existing art, and in some cases we certainly will
<Tm_T> actually, I already do have some backgrounds to Kubuntu, just if I can transfer those to svg or some other proper file format
<klepas> because there is some really great work on GNOME and KDE -look.org
<klepas> awesome
<klepas> so you're in to work on this after the meeting? :)
<Tm_T> why not
<Tm_T> just IF there's enough time, busy with school prolly :)
<Tm_T> and other projects (Kopete and some small things I'm going to do)
<klepas> Tm_T: no worries
<klepas> :)
<klepas> once i'm off to LCA no one will hear from me
<Tm_T> hehe
<klepas> and when i am back i will have less than a week to sort out, by then probably more than 4000 emails (those mailing lists), several articles, reports on LCA and other stuff
<klepas> all before college life begins
<klepas> 5 majors... man that will keep me busy, busy :)
<Tm_T> hehe
<klepas> so don't worry
<klepas> i just wanted at least one other person to help me out with this
<Tm_T> sure
<Tm_T> if I can
<Tm_T> that's why I'm here ;)
<klepas> http://www.nuxified.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=252#252
<Tm_T> tango?
<Tm_T> something gnome-thing?
<Tm_T> anyway, see you all later, maybe back in friday ->
<mhz> klepas: I loved NXFD logo!! :D
<mhz> very cleaver
<mhz> clever
<klepas> Tm_T: yep :)
<klepas> a Tango phpbb2.x theme
<mhz> artnay: ping
<lukacu> hello mhz
<mhz> hey lukacu 
<lukacu> mhz: my little adventure with xfce has just ended :)
<lukacu> back to gnome now
<mhz> lukacu: what happened?
<lukacu> but i will try to switch later ... when i will have time to figure out how to change keyboard layout
<lukacu> :)
* mhz still trying xfce
<mhz> lukacu: oh, yes that's a pain
<lukacu> yeah ... otherwise it is fast and has some iteresting solutions
<lukacu> so i plan to change when the time is right
<mhz> lukacu: personally, I will definately try DSS live
<mhz> a very cool project!!
<mhz> very cleaver and gnome independant libraries
<trevorv> lukacu, did you  try asking on #xfce?
<lukacu> no ... dont have time right now for further investigation
<trevorv> aah, ok then, hopefully you'll get back to Xfce at some point :)
<lukacu> i think i will ... gnome is too slow for me
<mhz> me too
<lukacu> but it is a major change ... after all ive been using gnome for more than a year now
* mhz still prefers wmaker speed and fluxbox
<trevorv> same here, xfce or fluxbox is the way to go
<mhz> trevorv: have you seen those beatiful amazing screenshots for fluxbox?
<lukacu> yeah... but when i came to ubuntu the gnome was default ...
<trevorv> mhz, which ones are you referring to?
<mhz> Any idea what to edit so xfce looks like those?
<lukacu> what screenshots?
* mhz getting them
<trevorv> im thinking of doing some work on fluxbox/ubuntu, a guide on setting it up might be enough, but a fubuntu-desktop package would be nice. Fubuntu is such a good name :)
<trevorv> don't have the time yet though
<mhz> there's a guy writing about Fluxbux on the wiki
<mhz> or F*ubuntu :)
<trevorv> oh is there? I'll check it out
<trevorv> can you not find the screenshots mhz?
<mhz> yes, i can, i was setting someone else's network
* mhz getting shots
<trevorv> aah ok, sorry :)
<mhz> http://www.fluxbox.org/zoom.php?shots/ikaro_fluxbox3.jpg
<trevorv> what exactly do you want from that? the transparency?
<mhz> http://www.fluxbox.org/zoom.php?shots/crimson_fluxbox2.jpg
<mhz> http://www.fluxbox.org/zoom.php?shots/vlaad_fluxbox.jpg
<trevorv> these screenshots are slowly getting less attractive :p
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> diff parts
<mhz> I want to make xfce look with 'glassy' effects, change use more transparencies
<mhz> and definately use darker colors
<trevorv> transparency wise, Terminal allows transparency, but I dont think there's any way of making the menu transparent, although i could well be wrong
<mhz> kde can :(
<lukacu> kde kan do many things ;)
<trevorv> you could run the fluxbox desktop instead of xfdesktop fairly easily i think, it would obviously use the fluxbox menu then, which imho is a better way of doing things anyway than .desktop  files
<trevorv> mostly things you dont want it to :)
<trevorv> for darker colours you just need to change your theme, try www.xfce-look.org if you haven't already
<mhz> i hadn't , thx
<trevorv> the gtk themes on www.gnome-look.org should work fine as well
<mhz> did you see the black icons on the windows?
<mhz> http://www.fluxbox.org/zoom.php?shots/ikaro_fluxbox3.jpg
<trevorv> you already showed that one
<trevorv> that is a nice one
<mhz> yes, i know i did. Thats an example of the icons for windows id' like
<mhz> trevorv: this one!  I like http://www.xfce-look.org/content/show.php?content=32768&PHPSESSID=ad90cfb81e0b652048ac3f8fab765bde
<mhz> very dark
<trevorv> sorry, not sure what you mean... you want to know what the icons are in the menu?
<trevorv> that is quite nice, think i'd prefer it if the window corners were rounded though
<mhz> nope, the glassy effects on menus
<mhz> and windows
<mhz> yup, me too
<trevorv> oh, sorry that was my fault, i missed some of what you wrote, heh. just a matter of searching for themes really, and if all else fails making your own. you might want to check on #xfce about transparent menus though, in case i'm wrong
<trevorv> is there any particular reason you don't just use fluxbox?
<mhz> trevorv: I did, for 1 year and half
<mhz> but
<mhz> I am collaborating with Edubuntu
<trevorv> i dont think its really what you want, but have a look at the 'agualemon' theme, tit's installed by default. i dont think its dark enough for you, but its kind of glassy. it might be a good starting point if you decide to make your own theme
<mhz> and end-users in Chile will prefer a more user-friendly desktop 
<mhz> http://www.xfce-look.org/content/show.php?content=32459
<mhz> that theme is cool!
<trevorv> oh right, that's a good reason, i remember you saying earlier now
<mhz> yup
* trevorv isn't too keen on the whole vista style to be honest
<mhz> otherwise I'd use wmaker and fluxbox
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-25
<klepas> troy_s: that's i guess what i am trying to get through here: the Ubuntu Artwork team will never create artwork for Ubuntu in a "professional development" style. We are not a design studio.
<troy_s> klepas:  I think that is where you are wrong.  There are certainly folks who will never be able to do that, but
<troy_s> that said, I think it is quite possible to achieve it with some learning and dedication.
<klepas> i guess that's something i'm never going to shrug off
<klepas> we're part of the foss community
<klepas> not a professional design studio
<troy_s> Otherwise we must simply relegate ourselves to being 'yet another half assed open source project'
<klepas> not proprietary-structured development
<klepas> =\
<troy_s> Irrelevant.
<klepas> how is that irrelevant?
<troy_s> There are structures implemented because they work.
<klepas> what is ubuntu?
<klepas> a foss project!
<klepas> not a proprietary-top-down structured project
<troy_s> Yes, but free software design has yet to embrace tactics that are proven and work.
<klepas> ugh
<troy_s> Not true either.
<troy_s> What is bzr?
<troy_s> Not just _anyone_ can push things upstream
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> But because everyone treats art and design as some abstract silly hobby
<troy_s> the bikeshedding abounds
<troy_s> etc.
<klepas> yes, that is true, but you're not going to tell me the way the folks at Redmond develop Windows is that way the foss community work on Ubuntu
<troy_s> Ultimately, someone provides direction -- whether it is a corporate boss or a collection of upstream developers.
<troy_s> Someone says 'yes' or 'no.'
<troy_s> the difference in FOSS is that you can always walk away and do it yourself.
<klepas> that is still *very* different from the way the folks at Redmond do things
<troy_s> probably less that you might think.  there is still organization.  there is still direction.  etc.
<klepas> no, that's not the chief difference. The chief difference is the community of people who come together to jointly work on something they love, not because they are being paid for it
<klepas> and the development style is totally different
<klepas> i'm not saying that foss development is without organisation
<troy_s> So what has that got to do with avoiding design documents and structure?
<troy_s> Nothing.
<klepas> i'm trying to get across that foss development != proprietary development
<troy_s> Who cares?
<klepas> who doesn't?
<troy_s> the point is that when a process works, it works.
<klepas> wtf?
<klepas> yes proprietary development might work for companies like MS, but not for foss projects
<troy_s> What are you talking about now?  Are we talking about art and design?
<klepas> and there are aspects of the development process that both the foss way and the proprietary way both share
<troy_s> I really have no clue what you are saying now.
<klepas> i'm trying to point out that foss artwork communities != professional design studios
<klepas> and thus don't need to start acting like ones
<troy_s> Ok, now that is entirely different than what you said before
<troy_s> and yes they do
<troy_s> if they want to achieve SOME degree of coherency
<troy_s> that means take direction
<troy_s> and move with it
<troy_s> formulate design documents so that _everyone_ can get on the same page.
<troy_s> some people who have been practicing art and design for many years with a good deal of training MIGHT be able to dive in and follow a style
<klepas> please read up the ideology of FOSS
<troy_s> but for the large part, that isn't the case.
<troy_s> Please get with the program.
<klepas> it's not proprietary development, in both artwork and code
<troy_s> Bugger ideology.  I am talking about getting a product out there that appeals to folks on a level that they will want to use it... I believe it is referred to as the
<troy_s> "aesthetic usability effect"
<klepas> why are you labelling ubuntu a product?
<troy_s> Because it bloody well is.  It is a single entity.
<troy_s> It is marketed by Canonical.
<klepas> single entity = product?
<troy_s> It is a product.
<troy_s> In fact, one could make a very cohesive argument that Inkscape is a product.
<troy_s> Etc.
<msikma> argh, why is it so hard to make a small circle with an outline that appears _exactly_ 1 px thick?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-26
<_MMA_> troy_s: Is the murrine engine going to be packaged for Feisty?
<troy_s> _mma_ wrong guy to ask here.
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Hmm... Ok. Ill ask around devel. If not, we'll package it.
<klepas> _MMA_: ping
<_MMA_> klepas: pong
<klepas> what is your connection to murrina?
<klepas> Murrine, rather
<_MMA_> Not anything besides Ubuntu Studio wants to use it as their main engine.
<_MMA_> I manage the project.
<klepas> hey, kudos
<klepas> that rocks :)
<klepas> as for your answer
<_MMA_> Thanx. We're tryin.
<klepas> i strongly doubt it
<klepas> regarding question from timestamp 14:13:12
<_MMA_> Ok.
<klepas> i would, if i could
<_MMA_> Theres a package from Gnome-look we've been using. Ill have our packagers get it into Universe.
<klepas> that sounds awesome
<klepas> see if you can get the murrine configurator as well :)
<klepas> and all the themes :)
<_MMA_> LOL. We already have a TON of work but Ill look into it.
<klepas> that would be great
<_MMA_> We're still desperately trying to sort out Cinelerra.
<klepas> what's that?
<_MMA_> A video editor.
<klepas> linear?
<_MMA_> http://cvs.cinelerra.org/
<klepas> only irc atm :(
* klepas takes note of the link
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<troy_s> _mma_ it would be terrific if you guys could get cinelerra in... i just tried to get it to compile from cvs on my amd64 box.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Theres alot of issues around it. 1.) The licensing isnt satisfactory to Debian rules. 2.) They use a static binary of ffmpeg. That normally isnt a big deal unless you want to ship it with a distribution. Which we do. :)
<troy_s> i belive the ffmpeg issue is performance
<troy_s> it is difficult when you get into nles because you expect top notch performance.
<_MMA_> Yeah. Its a stable, customized version they use.
<_MMA_> So it could introduce issues if we have it use the systems one.
<troy_s> i am still trying to get it to compile... seems there is a -fPIC issue
<_MMA_> Edgy or Feisty?
<troy_s> Edgy
<_MMA_> Oh wait. You said 64bit.
<troy_s> Yes...
<troy_s> Everyone should be running in 64bit ;)
<_MMA_> I think theres 32bit Edgy packages.
<_MMA_> Do you think so?
<troy_s> Absolutely
<_MMA_> I havnt seen a big difference.
<troy_s> its quite huge actually
<troy_s> amd's 64bit architecture is very slick
<_MMA_> We are gonna focus on 64bit on our next release.
<_MMA_> I have a AM2 4600+
<troy_s> especially in studio apps
<troy_s> dual core?
<_MMA_> yep
<troy_s> and you are crippling it by running in 32 bit?
<troy_s> you do realize that 32 bit apps perform better in native 64bit mode eh?
<_MMA_> Somewhat. I still use both processors just not 64bit.
<troy_s> that is, if you _must_ emulate
<troy_s> if you run ubuntu as your primary workstation, there really isn't much reason to _not_ be in 64 bit mode.
<_MMA_> I run 32bit because of things like Flash and video codecs.
<troy_s> flash and java are easily accomplished
<troy_s> without a chroot
<troy_s> or anything
<troy_s> just run them using linux32
<troy_s> re video codecs -- the only one that used to be a problem was wmv
<troy_s> otherwise there are native video codecs for pretty much every one i have come across
<_MMA_> Not sure what that is. Its actually come down to time lately. Ive been so busy with the family and the project I havnt had time to look at it since Dapper.
<troy_s> i strongly encourage you to give it a shot.
<troy_s> its very easy...
<_MMA_> Im getting another SATA drive soon. Im getting it as a test drive. Ill try then.
<troy_s> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxAMD64FlashJava
<_MMA_> Defiantly by Feisty+1.
<troy_s> Not worth crippling your chip for those two silly bits.
<troy_s> Especially that garbage flash.
* _MMA_ bookmarks link
<troy_s> i upgraded to the flash beta too, and it works (for silly kid games)
* _MMA_ doesnt want to get into one of those chats. :)
<troy_s> it was merely copying the lib.so file into the 32bit firefox plugins dir.
<_MMA_> hmm...
<_MMA_> Ill have a look at it.
<_MMA_> I dont want to mess up this partition yet. ;)
<troy_s> especially then because i could probably get amd64 bit suport out of ubuntu studio ;)
<_MMA_> Well thats the plan. :) Im building a mobile studio in a year and it will be 64bit.
<_MMA_> You cant run 32bit .debs on 64bit right?
<_MMA_> Is there a 64bit packaging team?
<troy_s> Actually
<troy_s> it gets tricky
<troy_s> some debs are platform irrelevant and you can force the package manager to install them
<troy_s> the problem is that the default paths tend to feck up things if they include binaries.
<troy_s> theoretically, i believe you can use dpkg to force an install to an alternative dir, but then you have all of the other packaging details to deal with (like incorrect .desktop file placement that might override 64 bit equivs etc)
<_MMA_> ahh..
<troy_s> I believe that the 64bit / 32bit is all handled by each
<troy_s> pusher
<troy_s> from the MOTU etc.
<troy_s> they simply build the bins on their side then push them then daniel does the official push.
<_MMA_> gotcha
<troy_s> If you can find me svn or cvs that compiles
<troy_s> i would gladly help out your project in my spare time.
<_MMA_> You have spare time? :)
<troy_s> i know that there are packages for rosegarden
<troy_s> sometimes... if it is something as simple as testing 64 bit packages yes.
<troy_s> rosegarden, ardour, rezound, etc
<troy_s> all have native 64 bit packages
<_MMA_> Seems like everyone I meet is so involved they're swamped.
<troy_s> well...
<troy_s> not so much with ubuntu
<troy_s> my career takes up massive amounts of time
<_MMA_> mhm
<troy_s> but when i am in hiatus modes, i have a bit between family and such.
<troy_s> is there a reason that you are only deving a 32bit studio?
<troy_s> and again, i don't recall, why isn't it a metapackage?
<troy_s> is it a kernel issue?
<_MMA_> "troy_s: is there a reason that you are only deving a 32bit studio?" Because of limited time/experiance/test machines/
<_MMA_> "troy_s: and again, i don't recall, why isn't it a metapackage?" Because we wanted a disk. :)
<_MMA_> "troy_s: is it a kernel issue?" Not really. Mark gave the go ahead for a kernel for us.
<_MMA_> The "-lowlatency" one.
<troy_s> How cool.
<troy_s> so you add the -lowlatency kernel and you get it?
<troy_s> (by the way the idea of a disk is awsome, but for those folks out there who need an idiot installation package on a default box it might be worth considering)
<troy_s> I have a few audio friends who would dearly love that package.
<_MMA_> I miis what you mean there. We're mot packaging it. BenC made one.
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> but is it in the official repos?
<_MMA_> yep. That was a unbreakable rule. Everything gets into the repos.
<_MMA_> So everyone benifits.
<_MMA_> *benefits
<troy_s> hrm... i only see generic and server.
<troy_s> only in 32bit land then isn't it?
<_MMA_> In Feisty?
<_MMA_> Its currently in Feisty. I was also told the -gereric and -lowlatency kernels were the same whether your running 32bit or 64bit. I still have to look into this.
* _MMA_ downloads a 64bit daily.
<_MMA_> BenC has mentioned the -low latency kernels will work on Edgy. I did it. I changed my sources.list to feisty and grabbed the linux-image-lowlatency meta and it should grab everything needed.
<PingunZ> what are the benefits of a low latency kernel ? the speed ?
<_MMA_> The -lowlatency kernel currently is just like -generic other then it has a 1000mhz timer and preemption enabled.
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-27
<viper550> Hello everyone!
<fnord__> whats gnome-scan?
<andreasn> fnord__: it's a scanning interface
<andreasn> gui
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-28
<mhb> hi everyone, hi kwwii
<troy_s> greets mhb
<mhb> how's artwork?
* klepas coughs
<mhb> or do you rather enjoy holidays?
<msikma> Artists never rest. Or sleep, for that matter.
<klepas> yes they do
* klepas is about to shortly :o)
<n8k99> hi all
<n8k99> mhb: here I is!
<mhb> n8k99: hi
<n8k99> mhb: art art art!
<mhb> so, what do you say to the Edgy artwork?
<mhb> Kubuntu Edgy?
<n8k99> loved the kubuntu stuff
<n8k99> don't really use the gnome version
<n8k99> ...however I do prefer the baghira theme for kwin
<n8k99> but I have been seeing some stuff that troy_s has been doing for U2
<troy_s> ping
<n8k99> the brown wood grain is nice - was thinking taht maybe there could be a kde version of that that uses a blue tone
<troy_s> how goes it guys?
<troy_s> actually, moving away from wood for the total panel.
<troy_s> the newest just got upped
<troy_s> its amber
<troy_s> as bloody apple looks like it might be migrating into organics
<mhb> troy_s: so you're moving away from organics?
<troy_s> hell no
<troy_s> the light pine though is out, as much as it is quite nice.
<troy_s> might offer it as an alternative.
<n8k99> no- I preferred the darker wood
<troy_s> the lacquered amber is also appealing though.
<troy_s> the 'darker' wood is actually amber.
<n8k99> right that's the one - but if it had a blue tone it'd be gr8 over here in kdeville
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2WindowProposals
<troy_s> well right now the code isn't clean yet...
<troy_s> as it is all proof of principle
<troy_s> once it is cleaned
<troy_s> it will be colorizable and scalable to fonts
<troy_s> just takes a little more work with the engine rc
<mhb> troy_s: I don't think apple is moving to wood/metal though
<troy_s> mhb -- i think you might be incorrect.
<mhb> troy_s: I think somebody showed you garageband or something, right?
<troy_s> mhb -- it is a very hot item in design circles right now, and if you look
<troy_s> at the new bloody j. ives stuff on interface you will see a distinct movement away from plastic gloss
<troy_s> as in the new itunes
<troy_s> and the new garageband
<troy_s> that said, i don't think they can push it as much as we can.
<troy_s> as their 'boxes' are still very sterile ikea kitchen appliances.
<troy_s> plastic is simply _done_.
<mhb> true
<troy_s> pop5 is pretty much the direction heading now.  with an adjustment for top left lighting to follow shortly.
<mhb> pop5?
<n8k99> yeah that's totally the one I am keen about
<troy_s> proof of principle 5 on that proposal page.
<troy_s> i adjusted the polish as the rc linework was hogging cycles
<mhb> ah
<troy_s> and it simply wasn't communicating the way it should.
<troy_s> far superior now.
<troy_s> going to bang out some icon work shortly, as xmas was a time hog.
<troy_s> top panel needs work now too, and will be matching the window border.
<mhb> troy_s: cool
<troy_s> as per the interface design specs..
<mhb> n8k99: do you have a screenshot of your preferred kwin theme?
<troy_s> ideally, i think for usability, the primary desktop surface should inherently imitate the design and implementation of the window
<n8k99> mhb: yeah hang on
<mhb> troy_s: you still need to clearly define the background / foreground
<troy_s> yes.
<troy_s> are you speaking about the edges of windows?
<mhb> troy_s: about the "primary desktop surface"
<mhb> troy_s: I may have misunderstood the term
<troy_s> the intention is to develop the focused window and the two panels to be reflective of each other.
<troy_s> meaning that the close window button and the shutdown/logout button will look identical and be in the identical spots.
<troy_s> minimize button also will be relfected in the 'show desktop' panel application.
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> so that the design is inherently intuitive.
<troy_s> window menu will be in the same position and have the same look as the primary desktop main menu.
<troy_s> the rest is uncluttered.
<n8k99> http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/snapshot1.png
<n8k99> that's an old favorite
<mhb> troy_s: that's going to be hard
<mhb> troy_s: because you have a lot less space on the window menu
<n8k99> but I prefer it blue
<troy_s> mhb?
<troy_s> strictly speaking in terms of muscle memory and intuition -- the two menus will be in the same location and offer the same icon
<n8k99> http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/konqueror-konsole.png is a better desktop that I normally rock
<mhb> troy_s: you mean when the window menu is maximized?
<mhb> troy_s: well, wouldn't that be confusing?
<mhb> troy_s: I mean when you have a similar icon for "close window" and "shut down the system" people might get confused
<n8k99> is that helpful mhb ?
<mhb> n8k99: sure
<troy_s> mhb no
<mhb> n8k99: you're Nathan Eckenrode? Where do I know your name from?
<troy_s> basically, that the far right button is close window, and the system panel upper will reflect the window properties
<troy_s> meaning that the window close button
<troy_s> and the shutdown system / logout button will be in the same location and offer the same icon
<n8k99> mhb: no idea? I get around?
<mhb> n8k99: I must have read it somewhere ... any important project you're a member of?
<n8k99> mhb: og has mentioned me a couple times in his blog on the planet
<n8k99> I presented *ubuntu with him @ the UN
<troy_s> og?
<troy_s> oliver?
<n8k99> og marcel: brazil-port translator
<n8k99> sometimes my name flashes by in the technical credits for hollywood
<n8k99> ?
<n8k99> no other clue
<mhb> troy_s: aren't the users accustomed to the shutdown symbol and to the close button "x" symbol?
<troy_s> indeed.
<troy_s> which is why both will probably be an X
<troy_s> as opposed to muddling the issue with learning new analogies with the power button.
<mhb> troy_s: how can the user tell that the "X" sign top right does shutdown the system and not closes the current window?
<mhb> troy_s: they might think that if those two are similar
<mhb> n8k99: the baghira theme is nice, but you can't use that as a default for Kubuntu
<mhb> n8k99: the buttons are too Mac-OS like
<n8k99> yeah I know
<n8k99> that's what I like about PoP 5 - it has the same basic feel
<n8k99> just that the colors need to be corrected for kde
<n8k99> and the buttons need to be, erm, made more easy to determine what they do
<kwwii> btw. if anyone is interested in Oxygen, I am creating wiki pages (my favorite pastime) on http://developernew.kde.org/Projects/Oxygen
<mhb> kwwii: great!
<mhb> kwwii: thanks
<mhb> kwwii: any screenshots of the windeco style yet?
<mhb> n8k99: I guess the current windeco style is not that bad
<mhb> n8k99: (Kubuntu)
<kwwii> mhb: the code is in svn, but itis not very far yet
<kwwii> and from day to day it either builds or it does not
<mhb> kwwii: I've noticed, but I don't have KDE4 compiled yet
<kwwii> ie. don't blame me
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> yeah, it is only for kde4
<mhb> n8k99: those same-looking buttons may be confusing for first-time users
<mhb> n8k99: or former Windows users
<n8k99> mhb: yes that's why I like having them colorcoded
<mhb> n8k99: even then
<mhb> n8k99: at least they are for me :o)
<n8k99> mhb: I think that the current default buttons are a bit kludgey
<n8k99> could just be me - I like watching the timetrial bike racers more than mountain bike racers
<mhb> n8k99: kludgey?
<mhb> n8k99: what do you mean by that?
<n8k99> they are square with rounded corners and a symbol on the inside
<n8k99> plus they are colored
<n8k99> that's four elements per button
<n8k99> no coded elements - visual elements
<n8k99> s/not/no
<mhb> n8k99: do you think that's too much?
<n8k99> mhb: I actually do
<mhb> n8k99: they aren't colored when not selected
<n8k99> mhb: I'm just much more fond of a circle over a rounded corner square
<n8k99> maybe even ovals
<n8k99> it's really the button shape that drove me away from the default
<n8k99> the rest of it is absolutely gorgeous
<mhb> n8k99: you can do some proposals if you want
<mhb> n8k99: but I think the symbols should stay
<n8k99> ok
<troy_s> mhb
<troy_s> similar tasks should be similarly grouped
<mhb> troy_s: yes?
<troy_s> as in, closing a window is very much like closing a desktop session.
<troy_s> the paradigm shift is only different based on the primary desktop window as compared to the standard windowing system.
<mhb> troy_s: there are differences, for example the frequency of closing a window / closing a windowing system
<mhb> troy_s: I close windows every day but I don't end the window session at all (I use the suspend to RAM shortcut)
<troy_s> mhb, yes.  but in practical terms, if you teach a user to use the upper left corner to shut a window down, it isn't a large gap for an average user to figure out that the upper x will indicate similar functionality.
<mhb> troy_s: I know users don't do that, but they end the session not so often
<troy_s> again, the target audience is average computing skill based.
<troy_s> to expand on that, the top panel would be reflective of the top window area on a standard window, and the lower panel is more 'status' based.
<msikma> You're saying the top bar in Gnome should be like the top bar of a window?
<troy_s> exactly
<msikma> why
<kwwii> we are working on the oxygen style and it will not include a seperation between the top "window decoration" and the toolbar...is that what you mean?
<troy_s> functional panelling
<troy_s> well the window that users use on a regular basis
<troy_s> as in the top 'area' of a window
<msikma> The top bar in gnome is not the top bar of a window. The top bar of a window is not the top bar in gnome.
<troy_s> no, but the functionality is similar
<msikma> So in that case you think we should just make them equal?
<troy_s> paradigm speaking yes.
<msikma> They will never have the same functionality.
<msikma> They don't have it now and they won't have it in the future.
<troy_s> there is 'affordance' with each
<troy_s> well actually there are similar traits exhibited in each.
<msikma> There's similarities between many different parts of an OS, but it's still important that they're different from each other.
<troy_s> for example, the minimize / maximize buttons all deal with adjusting the current view of a window
<troy_s> well sure, and a command line is probably the most extreme version of it.
<troy_s> there is 'affordance' offered in all of the functionality
<troy_s> meaning
<troy_s> that a single click doesn't adversely affect anything in the top panel functionality.
<troy_s> logical grouping would abide by the 'consistency' principle.
<kwwii> sometimes I wonder who is kidding who
<msikma> That doesn't mean we should equalize the top bar of gnome with the top bar of a window. Both have different functionality, and thus a different appearance. The fact that they have similarities won't make anyone believe that they are somehow related. Making it seem as though this is true will only confuse people needlessly.
<troy_s> i don't believe so... if a menu is in the upper left of a window, one could easily expect a menu in the upper left of the top panel.
<msikma> Certainly.
<troy_s> likewise for closing.
<troy_s> et.c
<msikma> Even though I'm against the "close session" button at the top-right of the gnome toolbar, that too, I can understand.
<msikma> It depends on how far you're willing to go.
<troy_s> simply extending learned paradigms.
<troy_s> its rather practical.
<msikma> A widget's design should follow its functionality.
<msikma> That, and no more or less.
<msikma> Although it should be noted that a design may add additional functionality.
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-29
<troy_s> wow that was ugly
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-30
<coz_> hello all
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-12-31
<chimai> hi :)
<nekohayo> hello folks, what are the documentation options available to me to make a fully compliant icon theme? I have checked a few websites, and they seem loosely related, sometimes outdated, and I don't even know what project or what documentation to trust (tango? freedesktop? or the gnome default icon theme?) I have a feeling that what is out there is not entirely complete and accurate :|
<TheSheep> nekohayo: try http://tango.freedesktop.org/
<TheSheep> nekohayo: freedesktop.org defines the icon naming conventions
<nekohayo> TheSheep: hmm but it in turn points to http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
<TheSheep> nekohayo: tango is one example of an icon set that follows them
<nekohayo> I looked at this and thought "what, that is all?"
<TheSheep> nekohayo: yes
<nekohayo> I mean, themes out there are much more complex/elaborate than that
<nekohayo> and have far more mimetypes and stuff like that
<TheSheep> nekohayo: well, mimetype naming convention is obvious
<TheSheep> nekohayo: application-specific icons are named after the application
<TheSheep> nekohayo: things like gimp of openoffice themes are separate
<nekohayo> TheSheep: gimp + openoffice, that I somewhat understand the issue... but I don't think mimetype naming convention is obvious... yeah it is for "generic" mimetype "categories" such as "package-x-generic", but that's all you get on that page... I mean there is not even a single paragraph of explanation about that, it's just a table with a dozen of generic mimetypes.. what if someone wants to add an icon for some mimetype such as a "jarnal"
<nekohayo> file, or a matroska video, or something
<TheSheep> nekohayo: if the mimetype is  major/minor, then the corresponding icon is major-minor.foo, where foo is the image extension
<TheSheep> nekohayo: for example, text/html is text-html.svg
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I've seen the gtk code that looks for icons, it checks major-minor.foo first, then fallbacks to major-x-generic.foo
<nekohayo> for applications, "regular" applications such as inkscape and gedit request an icon name such as "inkscape.*", but there are tons of things in the administration/preferences menu I could not figure out :|
* chimai wonders why he don't get a single word of what nekohayo and TheSheep are talking about
<nekohayo> and looking at other themes is confusing things up nicely too @_@
<TheSheep> nekohayo: they will either use one of the "standard" icons, or a non-standard addition, like gnome-something-something or kde-something-something -- in that case look at the gnome or crystal icon themes
<TheSheep> nekohayo: it's still a mess, although slowly clearing up
<nekohayo> TheSheep: looking at gnome 2.16's icon theme, it is scaring me the hell off
<chimai> Is there any soft which could generate correct icon themes?
<TheSheep> chimai: there are some scripts on the tango project website
<chimai> ok, i'm gonna take a look
<nekohayo> TheSheep: in that theme, I can see the same application icons like... 5 times or something, I can see the same mimetype icon 29 times!! how do we know what's good and what's wrong in that?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: the duplicates are usually symlinks
<chimai> 29 times? O__o
<chimai> How dirty... :/
<TheSheep> chimai: for backward compatibility :)
<TheSheep> chimai: it was a total mess some time ago, every app for itself
<nekohayo> TheSheep: why backwards compatibility if that theme is shipped "inside" a gnome release?
<TheSheep> now we at least have a standard to follow, even when some applications are still not up-to-date with it
<chimai> Eurk... I'm really not an addept of the "backward compatibility", you know... it's because of that that we're still using BIOS and other old things like that
<nekohayo> hmm
<TheSheep> nekohayo: because changing the icon paths in all those little apps takes time
<TheSheep> nekohayo: and introduces bugs
<nekohayo> TheSheep: you mean the mimetypes and application icon's stuff? isn't that automatic?
<nekohayo> I did not think application hardlinked to them (it would be a bit crazy imho)
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I invested some of my time into researching this some time ago, and I conclude there are some gnome libraries for that, but if you want a pure-gtk, gnome-free application, you need to handle that yourself
<nekohayo> there IS something in gnome that allows an application to ask "ok what is the icon to use for THIS mimetype" right?
<nekohayo> mmmh
<TheSheep> nekohayo: as I said, the gtk apps (like the file chooser, for example), just take the mime type, change the / into - and attach an extension at the end...
<chimai> give me an exemple please... what should the name be for a .ogg file? and for a .wmv ?
<TheSheep> chimai: I don't remember their mime types
<chimai> :/
<chimai> and where can i find it?
<TheSheep> application/ogg
<chimai> it beats me :/
<TheSheep> so it would be application-ogg.png (or .svg or .xpm or whatever)
<nekohayo> TheSheep: slightly off-topic but I noticed something... some files "change" mimetypes when I select them (ogg files for example). wtf? :)
<TheSheep> nekohayo: .ogg and .avi are "container" files, .ogg might be either audio or video file, for example
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I think that might be the reason
<nekohayo> hmm
<TheSheep> nekohayo: there are two ways of check the mime type of file
<TheSheep> nekohayo: based on it's name only, or based on the contents
<TheSheep> nekohayo: the system function that does it takes a switch parameter that controls it
<TheSheep> nekohayo: the former is much faster, of course
<chimai> TheSheep : but how do you know that it's "application"? Where did you find it? :/
<TheSheep> chimai: file -i filename
<TheSheep> chimai: there is a large database of mime types and corresponfing file uhm.. features
<TheSheep> chimai: test, if you will
<TheSheep> tests
<TheSheep> chimai: see 'man magic' for details
<chimai> chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3
<chimai> the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3: application/octet-stream
<chimai> --> application-mp3.png, right?
<TheSheep> chimai: no, application-octet-stream.png
<chimai> ok :/
<chimai> ^^
<nekohayo> uh wtf.. isn't octet-stream for all the binary things? maybe I'm mixing things up
<TheSheep> chimai: apparently it failed to determine the mime type for that file and have fallen back to the default
<nekohayo> ah
<chimai> (i'm a dummy, but i will understand, don't worry :p )
<chimai> chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i ./Desktop/Donnie\ Darko\ -\ Gary\ Jules\ -\ Mad\ World.mp3
<chimai> ./Desktop/Donnie Darko - Gary Jules - Mad World.mp3: audio/mpeg
<chimai> --> audio-mpeg.png ?
<nekohayo> TheSheep: I've been thinking over that backwards compatibility thing, will there be a time when gnome says "OKAY folks, we are NOW breaking every icon theme in this release, make them anew or they will not work", for great justice?
<TheSheep> chimai: yes
<chimai> w00t \o/
<TheSheep> nekohayo: for sure
<chimai> it sure will be great
<TheSheep> nekohayo: just not yet
<nekohayo> :| .... any idea when?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: people usually say "I don;t care about your stupid standards, that other distro has pretty icons"
<TheSheep> nekohayo: when enough apps will be updated to use the new standard
<nekohayo> and how can gnome know that has happened? what kinds of apps are targetted by this counter?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: right now whole lots of them
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I think that even parts of gtk
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I mean the stock icons and stuff
<nekohayo> you mean core apps part of gnome, or the vast majority of gtk apps out there on the interweb?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: the icons that are part of the gtk and the gnome libs
<TheSheep> nekohayo: for example, look at /usr/share/icons/gnome/24x24/stock/
<nekohayo> I doubt such a thing exists, but is there a checklist of apps that are not yet "fixed" to see the progress coming on?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: they are all out of the standard
* nekohayo looks
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I think they are doing serious moves towards this standard since just 2 versions of gnome
<nekohayo> TheSheep: omfg, you mean that on a ~1432 icon theme, the *standard* gnome icon theme, 637 of those are "junk"?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: not junk, just not covered by the freedesktop standard
<TheSheep> nekohayo: that is, they are gnome-specific
<nekohayo> what will happen of them? stay gnome-specific or all be reviewed to be included into FreeDesktop?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: note how they overlap with the standard ones
<TheSheep> nekohayo: hopefully, at least the ones that exist in the standard will be moved to the standard locations
<TheSheep> nekohayo: one ones that don't will stay gnome-spacific
<TheSheep> specific
<nekohayo> any hopes for that happening for gnome 2.18 or 2.20?
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I don't track the gnome development, so I have no idea
<nekohayo> hah :|
<nekohayo> I really hope they pass the vacuum cleaner in there ;)
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm sure you could help -- it's mostly tedious work
<nekohayo> TheSheep: hmm, how exactly can I help? I'm just a file renamer, not a programmer
<nekohayo> if I could make it happen sooner I would be glad to
<TheSheep> nekohayo: try contacting the gnome team maybe, I'm sure there are some pointers on their site
<nekohayo> (hopefully the gnome website will have a shot of vacuum cleaner too ;))
<nekohayo> I think they were planning on reorganizing it
<TheSheep> nekohayo: it's one of the best made website I've seen
<chimai> http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/?gib
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I mean from the technical pov, the organisation is weird
<chimai> seems to be dead :'(
<TheSheep> chimai: I meant this http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library#Download
<nekohayo> chimai: just looked at their development mailing list, it has cellphone and video spam @_@
<chimai> Oo
<chimai> that's why I *hate* mailing list
<chimai> boards are just so much better
<chimai> if I have something like that :
<chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar
<chimai> Desktop.tar: application/x-tar, POSIX
<chimai> is the name "application-x-tar", or do i need to use the "POSIX"?
<nekohayo> TheSheep: um, I grabbed that icon-naming tool, tried install.sh and I get "no input file specified."
<nekohayo> chimai: uh, I thought POSIX was some kind of standard of unix
<chimai> dunno
<chimai> :/
<nekohayo> "Portable Operating System Interface for uniX"
<TheSheep> it's "application-x-tar"
<TheSheep> that POSIX is just an additional comment on the file format
<TheSheep> not really a mime type
<chimai> ok
<chimai> and do you know can i do to make a difference between .bz2 and .tar.bz2 files?
<chimai> since i obtain this
<chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar.bz2
<chimai> Desktop.tar.bz2: application/x-bzip2
<nekohayo> I don't quite get what I need to do with that icon naming util @_@
<nekohayo> be right back, f00d
<chimai> bon appetit
<chimai> if I got this
<chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file \[Requiem\] \ Simoun\ 16\ \[080EAD1C\] .avi.torrent
<chimai> [Requiem]  Simoun 16 [080EAD1C] .avi.torrent: BitTorrent file
<chimai> it means that there isn't any existing name yet?
<chimai> TheSheep ?
<TheSheep> chimai: file -i
<TheSheep> chimai: to show the mime type
<chimai> erf, i forgot it -________-
* chimai slaps himself
<TheSheep> chimai: tar.bz2 are obviously .bz2 files, *containing* a .tar file
<chimai> oh, ok
<chimai> so i can't make 2 different icons, one for the .bz2 files, and the other for .tar.bz2 files? :'(
<TheSheep> chimai: I think not
<chimai> ok :/
<TheSheep> chimai: btw, take a look at /usr/share/mime
<chimai> got it
<chimai> OMG, you roxxx O__O
<TheSheep> chimai: there is also a freedesktop.org standard for those names...
<chimai> TheSheep : do you know what can be the difference between "audio-mpeg" and "audio-x-mpeg"?
<TheSheep> chimai: 'x' is for 'extended', not originally in the standard
<chimai> :/
<TheSheep> chimai: there is an explanation at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dfilemetadata_2dspec
<TheSheep> chimai: I haven't read it
<TheSheep> chimai: sorry, wrong rl
<TheSheep> url
<TheSheep> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dmime_2dinfo_2dspec
<nekohayo> TheSheep: did you try out that icon naming utility? I can't figure out how to run it, and the contents of the "INSTALL" file are the same as every darn tarball out there, it doesn't help
<TheSheep> nekohayo: no, sorry, I only have the general pointers
<chimai> TheSheep : it doesn't deals with the "x" thing; but thanks anyway ;)
<TheSheep> nekohayo: there is a mailing list for the tango project though
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm sure they will be able to help
<TheSheep> no wonder there are so few complete icon themes, eh? :)
<nekohayo> TheSheep: @_@
<nekohayo> TheSheep: could I quote you? I think I'll need to bring attention to this (of course, "you do not official represent gnome", etc)... at least the icon theme makers must have had lots of problems @_@
<nekohayo> officially*
<TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm not affiliated with any team, I doubt mentioning my name will have any result. Of course you can quote me, though.
<TheSheep> nekohayo: note also that my informations are not particulary fresh
<nekohayo> TheSheep: it's not really about the name, more about the insights you gave me :)
<TheSheep> nekohayo: you will get much better info on related mailing lists
<nekohayo> hm hm
<chimai> sleep time
<chimai> see you all
<chimai> and thanks a lot TheSheep ;)
<TheSheep> good night
<nekohayo> good night!
<troy_s> happy new year to everyone who is in the proper zone :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-24
<nanley> hello everyone
<nanley> i've just made a pretty good theme and wallpaper for Hardy
<nanley> anyone on?
<troy_s> nanley: Yes.
<troy_s> nanley: Link?
<nanley> yup
<nanley> one sec
<nanley> http://flickr.com/photos/52895259@N00/sets/72157603534841580/
<nanley> Thoughts?
<BHSPitMonkey> nanley, I don't like the chunky background
<BHSPitMonkey> or the panel stroke
<BHSPitMonkey> or the yellow titlebar
<BHSPitMonkey> or firefox toolbar backgrounds...
<nanley> any of the backgrounds?
<nanley> wallpapers i mean
<BHSPitMonkey> backgrounds in firefox's toolbar at all
<nanley> Yeah the ff backgrounds were pretty bad
<nanley> i was just showcasing some themes from the firefox personna extension
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> In general, the pursuit of darkness is foolish.  But that is simply my ill informed and inexperienced vantage.
<nanley> The theme?
<nanley> troy_s: Is it the Hardy theme you speak of?
<troy_s> nanley: All things dark.  Yes.
<nanley> yeah, I agree to an extent, but isn't the Official Hardy Theme planned to be dark?
<nanley> Black and orange to be exact?
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, think environmentally-conscience for once ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> start using blackle!
<nanley> or Ninja!
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-25
<troy_s> And yes, the initial impetus was to go black and orange.
<troy_s> I can't help but think that it is rather limited in scope.  A precursory examination of most designs out there tend to put black and x themes into the '33733t' skript kiddie demographic.  I don't know how viable a demographic that one is to chase.
<troy_s> Nevermind overcoming the Halloween connotations.
<nanley> My thoughts as well. With this venture as bold as it is, I believe they must have been thinking of something before hand, something unexpected; I just wonder what it is. Of course what I've just said could be false, as I've seen the immature drafts that have been released.
<troy_s> nanley: I wish there were that much forethought.
<troy_s> nanley: Granted, it is a gravely difficult chore to assemble a decent design team in the normal world, let alone Free Software.  There have been more and more people who have popped up with the proper credentials, but it will take time.
<nanley> troy_s: Hopefully, it will be taken care of within the next 4 months.
<troy_s> nanley: LOL.
<nanley> troy_s: lol
<troy_s> nanley: How old are you if you don't mind me asking?  20ish?
<nanley> troy_s: let's just say, I'm going to college next year
<troy_s> nanley: Ah.  So probably 19ish zone give or take?
<troy_s> nanley: What are you going to take or are you just going to feel it out at first?
<nanley> troy_s: quite close, yea
<nanley> troy_s: I was thinking somewhere between, EE, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, or medicine
<nanley> troy_s: I've got some narrowing down to do
<troy_s> nanley: Ah.  Nifty.  So get a ugrad then move into getting an engineering degree?  (That's a lot of school mind you)
<nanley> troy_s: Thing is, I'm quite clueless about the process - I was planning to procrastinate and wait until I had to deal with it, but it looks like I've got some more researching to do. I've already gotten accepted to one college, and I'm waiting on a response from a college which majors in engineering..
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nanley: Yeah.  Here it is a standard to have a ugrad then move into engineering if accepted (rather strict nasty testing as with MCAT and LSAT here)
<nanley> troy_s: Oh, I did not know this. You do live in the US right? :-!
<troy_s> nanley: Canada.
<nanley> troy_s: Ohk
<nanley> troy_s: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=647777 - That's where I got the Tropical Idea from
<nanley> troy_s: I assume you have an engineering degree?
<troy_s> nanley: No.  Fine Arts degree here.
<troy_s> nanley: A good friend of mine has a masters in engineering.
<nanley> troy_s: Ah, that explains why you're in #ubuntu-artwork. How does your friend like engineering? Is he doing mechanical engineering?
<troy_s> nanley: I think he is working on building engineering right now, but I can't be entirely certain.  Last time I chatted with him about work he was responsible for making architectural 'art' into reality - IE turning sketches and thoughts into things that don't fall over.
<nanley> troy_s: Got it, architectural engineering. I'll try and sort out my career stuff soon. Testing Hardy and Learning Python is just way too distracting.
<troy_s> LOL
<BHSPitMonkey> anybody notice blurry menu icons in gutsy?
<nanley> This is my feather concepts mixed - http://flickr.com/photos/52895259@N00/2134676742/
<nanley> I notice them only on my desktop
<BHSPitMonkey> and am I the only one whom it infuriates?
<nanley> on my laptop they don't exist for some odd reason
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: No.  If we insisted on SVG for all of the icons, it wouldn't be an issue.
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, no, even on the ones that are in svg!
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Example?
<BHSPitMonkey> folders in my Places menu
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Gnome's render is completely idiodic though -- as with GDM.  The silly thing renders SVGs to the image size and THEN stretches them.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: So the default folder icon?  Or is it one of the horrid tangoized dinky versions?
<BHSPitMonkey> I'll just upload a screen in a few mins
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Please do.  It is easy to fix -- simply adjust the index.theme for the icon set to point to either 1) an icon (as if it isn't pointed to an icon it will default to whatever is there already -- in this case probably smaller)
<troy_s> or 2) point to an icon that is bigger (as above.)
<nanley> I've got the same problem - it seems pretty recent though
<nanley> It just sprung up today probably after an update
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, the fact that it got released that way bothers me more than seeing it personally
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Tell me about it.  Every time I have to go over to a person's house and fix a bloody break that prevents memory cards from being detected it drives me bonkers.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: The regression factor in Ubuntu is something that needs to be addressed.
<troy_s> That said, Ubuntu does a _lot_ extremely well.
<troy_s> And we can expect growing pains obviously -- this level of status hasn't been achieved by a Free Software project yet (although one could argue Red Hat in enterprise circles -- but Ubuntu by all accounts does a better job of managing those sorts of issues)
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, I think what I'm seeing isn't the rendering, but the svg's themselves being badly made.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Always a possibility, but let me give you a brief idea to the theme file...
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: The theme file assigns icons based on 'need sizes'
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, no, there's some REALLY stupid shadow effects in place
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: In Ubuntu and most of everything the guys render to pixels (as opposed to using SVG and increasing the development on hinting etc)
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: hrm... screenshot?
<troy_s> imagebin.ca it.
<BHSPitMonkey> in the actual folder SVG.  You can open it in inskcape if you like.
<BHSPitMonkey> /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable/places/folder.svg
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: And what resolution are you viewing it at?
<troy_s> just so i can test
<troy_s> at 24x24 it looks 'fine'.
<troy_s> at this end anyways.
<troy_s> you running feisty BHSPitMonkey ?
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, does the way that "shadow" is implemented in the SVG drawing not bother you like it does me?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: That is a legacy shadow from the Illustrator conversion via inkscape
<BHSPitMonkey> a series of semi-opaque gray paths?  which becomes especially awful on top of an anything-but-white background?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: And yes, it isn't great.  That said, the overall icon is a bigger worry (why does Tango, Oxygen, and Ubuntu have the _worst_ high visibility icons outside of Vic20 land?)
<BHSPitMonkey> not sure I understand that
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Understand what?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: It was done that way as the 'blur' factor didn't exist when it was verted.
<BHSPitMonkey> but yeah, it's these dumb artistic flares that are making things look bad over here
<BHSPitMonkey> and everywhere I guess
<BHSPitMonkey> troy_s, you mean the high contrast icons, or what?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Don't for a second call any of that debacle 'artistic'.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: They are just clunky as hell icons.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: I thought Everaldo's new crystal set was quite good, albeit a little close to Vista.
<BHSPitMonkey> for the shadow effect, it needs to be a solid black offset shape, with blur (which I know is new) and low opacity
<BHSPitMonkey> it shows on white and not on black
<BHSPitMonkey> arguably it shouldn't be there at all, but that's a matter of opinion
<BHSPitMonkey> there's too much to just find flaws with really
<BHSPitMonkey> it's easier to just find an os x theme and feel like you've done all you can do
<BHSPitMonkey> the most confusing addition for me is the reasoning behind how they couldn't cough up a clean SVG of the bluetooth ****ing logo, and instead using one that looks like it was drawn in photoshop
<lassegul> merry christmas everyone
<troy_s> lassegul: Back at you!
<troy_s> lassegul: Or a generic happy holiday if you don't do the XMas thing.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-26
<troy_s> Help me.  I think I need to remove myself from the list having read that last post.
<somerville32> troy_s, lol
<somerville32> What did it say?
<troy_s> somerville32: Just more of the same really.
<troy_s> somerville32: But it is quite uh... interesting... some of the commentary you get on the list.
<somerville32> :(
<troy_s> somerville32: Although I am convinced I am going to go ballistic if I read 'Brown is evil' type comment.
<troy_s> somerville32: When in the end, it is just poor design, NOT the brown.
<somerville32> Brown is yummy :)
<troy_s> somerville32: Well... it _can_ be.  It isn't yet.  But it _can_ be if coupled with a concept etc.
 * somerville32 nods.
<BHSPitMonkey> I might go ballistic if I see another "Why is Ubuntu brown, that's what color poop is" comment :)
<BHSPitMonkey> I swear some people have never been outside
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Well god knows I tried to persuade sab away from glossy and brown.
<BHSPitMonkey> :P
<BHSPitMonkey> heh, hardy mockups are being thrown around in -offtopic
<BHSPitMonkey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Unity  :P
<BHSPitMonkey> personally I think the wiki shouldn't have art submissions organized by release
<BHSPitMonkey> as opposed to a big pool of "ubuntu" idease
<BHSPitMonkey> ideas, even
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Mocks are rather worthless.
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't believe so
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: 1) It isn't like any single one will come along and make everyone go 'YES'.  Just not going to happen (see countless audience rants).
<BHSPitMonkey> -any- UI starts with a mockup.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: 2) There is zero direction from the top regarding concept, goals, etc.
<BHSPitMonkey> that's true, yes
<troy_s> (although there is lots of that flakey hipster talk like 'Let's make it ROCK!' or 'Jaw dropping beautiful!'
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: I have learned _soooooo_ much just watching the Ubuntu dog chase its tail... worth the price of admission alone.
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: The biggest scary element though is a full court press to get rid of brown and drop in some other completely pathetic attempt like SUSE or Fedora -- 'It isn't brown!!!  All of our problems are solved.'
<troy_s> it is just such a pathetic and immature view of art / design / and otherwise.
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<BHSPitMonkey> well maybe I'm just becoming hardened, but I'm starting to think that art has no place in an operating system
<BHSPitMonkey> that it just needs to be squares and colors and icons
<troy_s> Wholly christ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAdku9YhSCI
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Art / Design has a very real place, our little troupe isn't quite ready to discuss the things yet.  (Although the numbers of people who are going to be able to wage that war _are_ growing.)
<troy_s> Right now it is nothing more than politicks.  It needs to get back the principles, the work, and the desire of taking things in a direction.
<troy_s> There is no sense in contributing work or anything until that battle is fought and _won_.
<BHSPitMonkey> frankly there are existent battles that need to be fought along the same lines
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Probably agree.  What did you have in mind?
<BHSPitMonkey> I mean in the world and governments, which make concentrating on Ubuntu so hard seem silly to me
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Read that ridiculous mail by julien.  I can't believe my eyes when I read that.
<BHSPitMonkey> but everyone has a distraction they've invested themselves in right now
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Somewhere in that post was a third world view of Free Software as a fourth class citizen.  And I nearly fell over when I read "Doesn't have the resources" and "volunteer"
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Oh and make no mistake -- Free Software is at least as important (Ubuntu in the smaller sense -- but it is the one with the tidal wave so we need to run with it)
<BHSPitMonkey> lol, I don't want to pay extra for a crossbow-proof monitor
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Scary as hell though.
<troy_s> ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> crazy foreigners
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm liking asus latelt
<BHSPitMonkey> lately, even
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: They appear to be doing things well I must say.
<BHSPitMonkey> I want my friend to buy an eee so I can play with it
<troy_s> wholly crap http://www.barechoons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27
<troy_s> try the 2nd page and move the ball down to the tank tread thing then shake it.
<troy_s> (crap flash, but wow.
<troy_s> _WOW_
<troy_s> that's bonkers
<troy_s> that guy deserves the official "OK -- I'm a genius" pin.
<troy_s> i got the tank tread off and stuck up on the shelf... that's just bonkers.  i can't quite explain it.
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't follow
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Did you try that?
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: http://www.barechoons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27
<BHSPitMonkey> it's exactly like the game Crayon Physics
<BHSPitMonkey> or its clone which I have on my iPod Touch
<BHSPitMonkey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsTqspnvAaI
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Wow that's pretty cool.  But try the tank tread.
<BHSPitMonkey> get the tank tread to do what exactly
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Uses the same lib.
<BHSPitMonkey> I put it up on the dominos and it did a cool thing reversing their collapsed direction
<troy_s> BHSPitMonkey: Yeah cool.  Shake the tank tread.  You can 'break' it.
<BHSPitMonkey> I did that the first time, by accident
<BHSPitMonkey> try the golf game on the right
<BHSPitMonkey> level 9 is a stinke
<BHSPitMonkey> r
<BHSPitMonkey> s/stinker/impossible/
<BHSPitMonkey> finally finished
<DanaG> Hmm, random post in this -studio topic has an interesting idea: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=562334&page=3
<DanaG> (off-topic for that thread, and thus on-topic for here.  Quote next post: "That's ubuntu, not ubuntu studio. ")
<thorwil> ^ i guess that was about http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sp4449a.jpg
<troy_s> julien is completely ill - informed.
<thorwil> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: It's sad when someone doesn't realize that funding has nothing to do with it.  It is more about vision and execution than anything.
<thorwil> troy_s: but funding can help quite a bit with vision and execution ;)
<thorwil> but i do think an open source project could take it up with apple
<_MMA_> thorwil: As long as there's a small group of people (maybe 3) or a person who makes the final decision, sure. Design by committee isn't the way to go.
<_MMA_> Part of what we have now on the list is people waiting around for direction and aren't remembering that the direction will come after the holidays.
<thorwil> if only that were the full picture
<thorwil> ok, you said "part of" :)
 * thorwil wonders if he will ever master drawing ellipses
<troy_s> thorwil: 2nd comment 100% spot on.
<troy_s> thorwil: This is new ground.  It will take time for everyone to get a process in place and 'get on the same page'.  First we all need to get a page of course
<troy_s> thorwil: And re funding -- it isn't really an issue.
<troy_s> thorwil: If it were, Microsoft would have the most lauded design.
<troy_s> thorwil: A common, well-thought out goal doesn't hurt.  I don't know Ubuntu will ever get to that under the current circumstance as it seems the folks on high don't understand what that means.
<troy_s> thorwil: (And 2nd re funding - there are _countless_ examples of amazing art and design out there -- some from zero funded individuals groups.  It just seems that as soon as anyone tries to suggest that xxx-operatingsystem-unreleated design is successful for yyy reasons, a vocal ignorant group goes 'but we aren't a xxx company'
<troy_s> thorwil: And when we keep to 'contextually identical' groups such as Apple, you get equally ignorant contrarianisms.
<troy_s> Aside from that, Damian's mail pretty much summed it up.  I'll bide my time until more folks such as Damian and Henning arrive on the scene.
<thorwil> troy_s: what i mean is rather that funding - as in paying people - helps to keep everyone in line. and allows full time work. but otherwise agreed
<troy_s> thorwil: True enough -- it allows you to forge ahead with a plan.  That said, Ubuntu has been doing that now for nearly four years with nothing but mediocre and tepid delivery.
<thorwil> troy_s: with a common theory, it's all about bill gates vs steve jobs. but where would mark be? ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Mark is definitely a Bill.
<_MMA_> lol.
<thorwil> ouch. heh
<troy_s> thorwil: It is as I have tried to say many times -- design and caring for the fine arts is something that is either a key goal or not.
<troy_s> thorwil: Bill was much the same way.
<_MMA_> And without knowing either man, I'll take that for what it's worth. ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: It is quite well documented.  You can access much of what Steve studied in Uni etc. online.  Not to mention the actual views from the man recorded in interviews.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Sad thing is, once there is a direction the traffic on the list will halve.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Of course, legacies speak for themselves on all three turfs.
<_MMA_> Good for those that will actually work I guess.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Not really.
<troy_s> _MMA_: If there is still a lack of concept or poorly thought out, poorly documented, poorly reasoned set of 'decisions' in place, we are no better off.
<_MMA_> Like you said, "if". I hope to see you fine-tune what ever decision comes down from on-high.
<_MMA_> But I'm sure we will lose people based on whatever concept comes down.
<_MMA_> Hell, we lost wedderburn because he didnt like the "DIY" thing.
<thorwil> never mind loosing people if the right ones stay
<thorwil> losing
<_MMA_> thorwil: Thats my point."Good for those that will actually work I guess."
<_MMA_> People will also have to deal with the fact that Hardy's art will be a mid-point to what +1 will be.
<thorwil> doubt it
<troy_s> _MMA_: If you had the three or four folks I chat with 'around' Ubuntu art land, you would have a product.
<_MMA_> thorwil: ?
<thorwil> would be insane to do the theme change for hardy
<thorwil> and last i heard making LTS the last with a theme was still an option
<_MMA_> thorwil: It will change slightly and +1 will be the target for whatever direction pops up.
<crimsun> We need a mood ring in the installer that chooses the default theme for the user.
<troy_s> _MMA_: My gut tells me that most with ability and skills won't be following questionable decisions.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Sure. IMO Mark is the biggest road-block from listening to him in Boston.
<troy_s> _MMA_: He is certainly a big one.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I can state that first hand.
<_MMA_> troy_s: pfftt.. Anyone will find something questionable.
<troy_s> _MMA_: And his conceptual 'breadth' of art and design is ... limited.  Worse, it doesn't appear he is even remotely interested.
<_MMA_> crimsun: +1
<troy_s> _MMA_: Anything _decent_ will surely have a risk element to it.  That said, it is far different if someone credible like J. Ive suggests something risky versus say, yyy individual.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Credibility is probably 80% of the battle with getting those folks on board who can seriously alter futures.
<troy_s> _MMA_: As it stands now, we have -10%. (Minus ten for the rather hideous legacy -- much the same predicament that Ballmer n' company is faced with.)
<_MMA_> Meh. I dont know shit but Im involved and interested. I have no more credibility than he (Mark) does.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well that's just it, even Mark doesn't really have credibility in this sphere.  Worse, the known history isn't helping the cause.
<thorwil> _MMA_: just talk more like troy. that will make you seem more credible ;)
<_MMA_> lol!
<troy_s> thorwil: lol yeah.
<_MMA_> ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: It is no small wonder why certain projects will attract the top talent creative folks.  For example, there is a super low budget Terry Gilliam movie about to be shot here... he has some of the top talents in the globe working on it.
<troy_s> thorwil: And they aren't making much money on it either.
<troy_s> (Many working for basically free if you consider standard rates.)
<_MMA_> Meh. No matter the talent, or project if people don't like the concept people wont help for free. I think thats goes into what thorwil was talking about. I just wonder what will happen to the list once the details are laid out. My bet is silence.
<crimsun> well, the trick then it to sham people into thinking the concept is theirs to vote on.
<crimsun> is to*
<_MMA_> I think we're past pulling that over on people. ;)
<crimsun> is anyone packaging WIPs on PPAs?
<crimsun> (I don't, frightfully, follow -artwork, but I'd be willing to put that ole PPA to use)
<_MMA_> crimsun: From what I know, there will be only 1 upload to the archive for the art this time. I dont know if the PPA would be needed.
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<thorwil> good night!
<troy_s> crimsun: That will work for a percentage.  The folks who need to be the 'engine' however, will probably smell a bunk concept or a good one without all of that.
<troy_s> _MMA_: If the details are rooted in sound and credible notions, I think you will see a good degree of 'contribution'.  If not, it will business as usual.
<troy_s> _MMA_: DIY is sound in all ways.  Negotiating what _you_ want with the talent that can get you there is the 'next tough step'.  Perhaps giving feedback on those that have headed down that path could help?  I know Toma and a few others did some sort of 'preliminary' DIY feeling things...
<troy_s> I don't honestly know or have a clue on how to foster that.  Its all new ground and territory.
<crimsun> do any other communities do it?
<troy_s> crimsun: I don't think so.  I think it is all new "Free Design" turf if there is such a thing.
<troy_s> crimsun: I suppose you could possibly draw analogies to some art forms that come up in smaller cultural niches (such as first nations art, aboriginal perhaps... etc.?)
<troy_s> crimsun: I would cite those smaller niches as they are the only ones that actually manage to convey their goals through their art.  It isn't just 'middle grey rubbish' such as say, Fedora 8.
<yharrow> hey guys
<yharrow> ping troy_s
<somerville32> :)
<troy_s> yharrow: Howdy
<troy_s> yharrow: How have you been?>
<troy_s> yharrow: I'm back around.  Ping me.
<yharrow> kk
<yharrow> ping troy_s
<yharrow> been ok
<yharrow> how was your christmas
<troy_s> phone
<troy_s> yharrow: Sorry... back.
<troy_s> yharrow: Good holidays here... yourself?
<yharrow> great :D
<yharrow> thanks man
<yharrow> troy_s:  been meaning to contact you for a while now
<troy_s> yharrow: Uh oh. ;)
<yharrow> troy_s: are you famliar with the approach the community is taking towards Hardy Heron Design?
<troy_s> yharrow: Uh.  There isn't really one.
<yharrow> correct
<yharrow> The attitude is to create a new look
<troy_s> yharrow: Thus far there has been much chatter on the mailing list (healthy to see interest at least)
<yharrow> However there is little direction being provided and multiple approaches being used.
<troy_s> yharrow: That said, all of this depends on sabdfl and his acknowledged voice kww.ii.
<troy_s> yharrow: There has been a 'wait until information' state for a while now.
<troy_s> yharrow: You can see what has been established on the wiki under Ken's guideance (Wimer -- not the other guy)
<yharrow> I think it's arguable that Kww.ii. is sabdfls acknowledged voice despite the fact that he has been chosen to provide design for previous versions of the operating system.
 * _MMA_ must chime in and say that the "new look" (whatever it is) is really set to happen for +1
<yharrow> Hardy +1?
<_MMA_> yes
<yharrow> oh
<yharrow> from where did you garner this information?
<_MMA_> yharrow: kwwii is more of a puppet actually.
<troy_s> yharrow: Well Mark will certainly provide his rather limited directed voice through Ken.  That said, he used to read the mailing list.  He doesn't any more (as can be expected as he is growing ever more busy etc.)
<_MMA_> yharrow: The ML and talking here with kwwii.
<yharrow> ok
<troy_s> yharrow: It is pretty easy to see there is zero time to do much between now and Hardy.  Hardy +1 will have its own set of issues if / when / etc. documentation comes.
<yharrow> What is the point of the design team?
<troy_s> yharrow: As I have said before and again:  There isn't one.
<yharrow> That's lame
<_MMA_> yharrow: The "team" will be whoever works once the design direction is fleshed out.
<troy_s> yharrow: There never will be until there is reason.  That might come from 1) Epiphany.  2) Failure.  3) Community pressure.  4) Independent Production (Desire to use something dev'd by community)
<troy_s> yharrow: Not really lame.  It is entirely within Mark's rights.  I support the decision.
<yharrow> Somebody needs to take control of Ubuntu's design team and lead it down a definite path. The team seems to be in a state of disarray the effects of which are evident through ubuntu's current design.
<troy_s> yharrow: Not yet.
<troy_s> yharrow: There is no team nor a need.  There is no reason to have one.
<yharrow> ok
<troy_s> yharrow: Further, Mark and the top end aren't ready for any sort of clearly outlined design pattern etc.  He will pursue what he is ready for... right now -- which is not much.
<yharrow> so we are a group of independent developers working on a common goal
<yharrow> ?
<troy_s> yharrow: Do you want an estimation?  Probably not even that.  I privately group with a few folks I have met through the mailing list.
<troy_s> yharrow:  The flipside is to 1) Cite ridiculously 'identical' themes that have 18 pages of forum support.  2) Produce mocks such ashttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals or 3) Contribute to as much as you can outside of default main.
<_MMA_> "yharrow: so we are a group of independent developers working on a common goal" I hope this is the eventual outcome.
<troy_s> yharrow: In the end, don't expect much progress.  A few of us were grouped together on Mythbuntu for example, and got trumped by the same identical attitudes (after much bloody wasted time on my part)
<troy_s> yharrow: In the end (aside from being the high up issue) the attitudes and like of the 'community' need to change, mature, and get educated.
<yharrow> it sounds more like discouragement due to repeated failure to see the fruit of ones work than an acceptance of the current state of affairs.
<yharrow> well i mean satisfaction
<yharrow> acceptance is a differnt topic altogether
<troy_s> yharrow: Hrm... personally you mean?  Or more 'Ubuntucommunity'?
<yharrow> I think many people have those feelings.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-27
<yharrow> I do not see in all honesty how art differs from code wrting in regard to the idea of collaborating between many professionals to produce a quality result
<troy_s> yharrow: Well... it is irrelevant.  I doubt there is much there to evaluate 'good work'.  I am rather feeble, as is much of what I see.
<troy_s> yharrow: Agreed.  The problem is that people think "Free Software" means open collaboration.
<troy_s> yharrow: And it isn't quite there yet (bzr will help for certain with the branching mechanism)
<yharrow> What do you mean by open collaboration? collaboration without guidelines?
<_MMA_> "The problem is that people think "Free Software" means open collaboration." Or "needs" to mean.
<troy_s> yharrow: We are such a fragile community for the moment (being small, etc.) that it has a lot to do with getting 'support', which means politicking.  Not something I am terribly fond of.
<troy_s> _MMA_: True enough.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Although the strength most certainly is through alternate contribution -- minor patch here, fix there.  Bzr helps that out 100%.
<_MMA_> troy_s: "which means politicking.  Not something I am terribly fond of." I think this is a fundamental point in the relationship you have with kwwii. Something he alone has to consider and as much as he personally agrees with your "lets turn things on its ear" approach, he just cant do.
<yharrow> What is to stop those indivduals interested in creating art for ubuntu from banding together to work on a single theme while simaltaneously fleshing out whatever design whim that the sabdfl currently fancies
 * _MMA_ needs to dig into BZR a bit more. Olive the GTK front-end is cool also.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Bzr and branches is _amazing_ for this sort of thing.  Even 'Free Design' could use it.  (By the way, bzr works great with svg's as they aren't binary and are subject to mods just like source code)
<troy_s> yharrow: Uh... probably agreement on direction I suppose.
<yharrow> there is undoubtedly strength in numbers and it is my honest opinion that true beauty will be apparent to most.
<troy_s> yharrow: _THAT_ failure is solely based on the inability of people to create work.
<yharrow> its impossible to work without direction
<yharrow> agreed
<troy_s> yharrow: Probably disagree on that last statement.
<yharrow> oh
<yharrow> yes, i said it hesitantly
<troy_s> yharrow: Reason being -- in all of my experience the most lauded design / artwork goes through a phase of 'counter - trend'
<yharrow> sad but true
<troy_s> yharrow: In fact, almost every 'movement' is counter trend.
<yharrow> However, there is a threshold
<troy_s> yharrow: If it catches on, the avant-garde repeat it over and over until the mainstream commoditizes it.
<troy_s> yharrow: At which point it dies.
<troy_s> yharrow: Examples might include but aren't limited to:  DIY movement, Expressionism, etc.
<yharrow> have you ever met a person who hated every part of natures appearance?
<troy_s> yharrow:  Yikes.  A little 'esoteric' there.
<yharrow> ever met aperson not awed by the vastness of an ocean or beauty of a sunset
<yharrow> my point being
<yharrow> that there is a threshold of undeniable beauty
<troy_s> yharrow: Probably yes.  Contextual.  Work on the ocean and you hate it.
<troy_s> lol
<yharrow> lol
<troy_s> oil workers probably hate ocean views.
<yharrow> that does not mean they were never awed by it
<yharrow> the trick is coordinating design to the point of near universal acceptance
<yharrow> this requires much foundation , planning, and direction
<troy_s> Well... to be frank, I find the plethora of 'just put nice photos' ideas rather dull.  They are
<troy_s> very musak feeling.
<troy_s> and worse, are extremely difficult to wrap into a real tight overall package.
<troy_s> But I could probably flip one way or the other on that... Look at the KDE photos and perhaps you get the idea.
<troy_s> They are very 'blah' as it is _only_ the wallpaper out of context.  A nice interface?  Blah out of context.  "Nice" audio?  Again -- out of context -- rather worthless.
<troy_s> yharrow: I would think that 'most' people can 'see' the Ubuntu pattern that works as it is now flailing.
<troy_s> yharrow: 'Most' mainstreamers tend to key on the idea of Ubuntu being crafted, human, organic.  It isn't visualized as such, and is in fact a mockery of it.
 * Toma- steals troy_s's ' button
<troy_s> yharrow: The 'errors' in that path lay in going African (too corndoggy from my vantage) or otherwise.  There is much to be said for the cracked earth look that Damian's work cued on via the Elephant skin (although again got botched by making completely monochromatic afterwards.
<troy_s> Toma-: lol
<Toma-> have you made a mockup yet?
<yharrow> What are the chances of a number of design developers from banding together to create design guidelines if anything and forming a sort of revolution?
<troy_s> yharrow: That's a random bit of speculation on my part (as is most).  I would hope it is completely random outcome based on execution.
<yharrow> I like the idea of creating a design that the community decides to use as its own. many projects gained approval through way of simple demand from end users
<yharrow> if there is a demand for the inclusion of a coordinated design that we "as a team" develop then we are already half way there
<yharrow> how many specific tasks are there in LP directly relating to explicit design goals
<troy_s> yharrow: Hrm... an example might be something such as art versus code.  Code can be incrementally fixed.  Design can too (sort of -- Ubuntu does it _sort_ of with icon blurry etc. bugs)
<troy_s> yharrow: The bigger design patterns though require people to really try and fall into the style.  Probably harder.  Tango sort of does it but it has a singular gatewarden in Lapo.
<yharrow> hmm
<troy_s> yharrow: So you have two things - Quality Control and Desire.  You have the need to hit the bigger vision and then faced with the real fact that you are further reducing your contributors based on aesthetic styles.  If they don't like it, they aren't going to contribute a pinch.
<troy_s> yharrow: And yes, having everyone follow along takes someone with near mythic stature to lead it.  Thus far, jimmac is probably the only guy who has gotten there.  Everaldo maybe.
<yharrow> there are certain established industry guidelines such as usage of coordinated palettes, similar to the way that there are rules to writing code. the major problem being that there is no known debugger for art
<troy_s> yharrow: As Damian said, having a palette is small and minor compared to getting the goal in place first.
<troy_s> yharrow: A palette is merely a means to an end, not an end itself.  If I had to bet, when the time comes, there will be a palette but still no goal.
<yharrow> what are the top 3 things in your opinion that define a design?
<troy_s> yharrow: Egads.  What a question to ask of a buffoon.
<yharrow> But it is your opinion that I seek.
<_MMA_> yharrow: Send him a email. ;)
<troy_s> yharrow: Guest over.  I would start with 1) Audience 2) Goal 3) Process
<yharrow> Whom would you consider the Audience of Ubuntu design?
<yharrow> or rather
<troy_s> yharrow: Wow huge question.  Two sides:  Go with who the audience is already or pick a new one.  Do the first -- make the already using users very happy.  Do the latter, make new users very happy and probably pi*s off the existing base.
<yharrow> can you name 3 attributes that every member of the audience shares
<troy_s> yharrow: No.
<troy_s> yharrow: Universals are the words of snake-oil salesmen.
<yharrow> hmm
<troy_s> yharrow: All of art / design / and well according to Einstein _everything_ is relative.
<yharrow> what is design relative to?
<troy_s> yharrow: The end user.  Mired in contemporary trends and context of course.
<yharrow> What is your opinion of modern design? the idea of beauty in functionality
<yharrow> function*
<yharrow> my idea is to take a very practical approach to UI design and theming
<troy_s> yharrow: Gosh.  This feels like Barbra Walters.  Uh... for me, aesthetics is a 'function' in that rather foolish 'form vs. function' debate from the Swiss Style.
<troy_s> yharrow: Practical is relative.  You can't escape it.  Again, as with math, you need to define your perspective.  Are you on the train throwing the ball or on the sideline?
<yharrow> I'm trying to anchor onto something that we can work from
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> yharrow: Start with your audience.
<troy_s> yharrow: If not, look to those mocks and the countless cyclical 'this is better' 'that is ugly' additions.
<yharrow> ok
<yharrow> here is the problem
<yharrow> the audience is in fact diverse.
<yharrow> I believe that no matter what some ppl will be unsatisfied with the final prodcut
<yharrow> product
<troy_s> yharrow: So be bold.  Pick one.
<_MMA_> Yep.
<yharrow> design
<troy_s> yharrow: And _YES_
<yharrow> the goal is
<yharrow> to displease as few ppl as possible
<troy_s> yharrow: Accept that.  SOME will hate.
<_MMA_> DIY FTW!!
<yharrow> lol
<_MMA_> ;)
<yharrow> so
<yharrow> how do we fine what the majority of ppl enjoy in design?
<yharrow> the so called "masses"
<yharrow> I think the best way is to look around the world we live in
<yharrow> of course loads of ppl hate cities
<yharrow> but cities are our cultural centers
<yharrow> many modern cities share common aspects
<yharrow> buildings are similar
<troy_s> yharrow: Way way way too complicated.
<yharrow> merchandise is similar
<yharrow> vehicles are similar
<yharrow> why?
<yharrow> im being serious
<troy_s> yharrow: Contemporary trends and vendor history play a role.  Nearly anything Apple does right now is 'yay hip' even if it is sub optimal.
<yharrow> thats my point
<yharrow> lol
<yharrow> i mean
<yharrow> i dunno about vendor history
<yharrow> but
<yharrow> contemporary trends for sure
<yharrow> thats what im getting at
<yharrow> another thing we need to accept is that our design will become outdated
<yharrow> by its very nature design is in fact relative
<yharrow> few things in this world have a persisitent beauty imo
<yharrow> persistent*
<yharrow> does that make sense?
<yharrow> I hope i am not shooting off my mouth here
<yharrow> lol
<yharrow> anyways
<yharrow> im done ranting
<yharrow> gonna go do some things
<yharrow> bye ppl
 * _MMA_ wonders if he will be one who just spouts off or helps later.
<_MMA_> he=yharrow
<thorwil> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F9Themes
<Toma-> lol @ notepad 'screenshot' :D
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-28
<troy_s> _MMA_: http://www.modernlifeisrubbish.co.uk/
<troy_s> The trends from 2006 are funny too.
 * _MMA_ looks.
<troy_s> _MMA_: http://www.modernlifeisrubbish.co.uk/article/8-web-cliches-of-2006
<troy_s> Sadly, the trends of 2006 are still a mainstay in most of those damn mocks.
<troy_s> "#6 Wet Floor Effect"
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> dang! ubuntu should so have a mascot!!
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> thorwil: Rather interesting though.
<thorwil> troy_s: we could depict it standing on a wet floor with a nice gradient in the background. it should have a weird name
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> thorwil: Wait, we already have much of that.
 * thorwil thinks platypus
<troy_s> thorwil: http://www.stepinsidedesign.com/STEPMagazine/Article/28586
<troy_s> thorwil: and 2007 - http://www.stepinsidedesign.com/STEPMagazine/Article/28730
<troy_s> some rather amazing works in the 2k7 summary
 * thorwil looks at pictures and can't be bothered to read
<troy_s> amazing palette on the
<troy_s> 2nd page of 2007 -- the 'styling' category.
<troy_s> retro palette
<troy_s> orange and blue.
<thorwil> troy_s: the wine bottle makes me think that area has something we might want
<troy_s> thorwil: From 2k6?
<troy_s> thorwil: That one?
<thorwil> http://assets.stepinsidedesign.com/stepicons/14278.jpg
<troy_s> thorwil: There are three pages to the 2k6 summary -- scroll down too.
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes... that 2d flat illustration look
<troy_s> thorwil: has been around in various 'flavors' for a couple of years now.
<troy_s> thorwil: Not limited to variations into DIY / Grunge / etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: There was a reference I sourced out for u2 a while ago... let me see if I can find it.
<thorwil> troy_s: not just that. rather the grown quality aspect
<troy_s> thorwil: It completely successfully embraced an earthy palette, 2d illustration, and a victorian elegance.
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Reference/u2OfficialDesignGuidelines
<troy_s> scroll down to darling room
<troy_s> I'll try to find the real link
<thorwil> troy_s: i only recently stumbled over u2 in launchpad. what happened?
<troy_s> thorwil: Well I work in a demanding career and I ended up getting rolled into a few projects that demanded my attention -- namely Fluxbuntu and then Mythbuntu (which more or less rolled away)
<troy_s> thorwil: I'll probably hit away at it again sooner rather than later.
<thorwil> troy_s: so you're the one and only driving force, despite a list of members?
<troy_s> thorwil: Actually, much of my output early going was steered along with a collaboration with a few other folks with design degrees.
<troy_s> thorwil: The reality is that in general, people of the sort I was hoping to attract are deadly busy.
<troy_s> thorwil: As I have been of late.
<troy_s> thorwil: (As an aside, that hammerpress design site has some amazing work (the site that the darling room was sourced from)
<thorwil> troy_s: i wonder if a project at some design academy could be initiated to get students to work on theming :)
<troy_s> thorwil: The idea has been brought up before.  I think it is a wonderful idea, that said,
<troy_s> thorwil: It is problematic if the actual fundamental 'show stopper' issues can't be addressed.
<thorwil> yeah
<troy_s> thorwil: Being the nature of figuring out where to take a design.  What audience, what communication goal / concept that works towards getting that audience emotionally attached to the 'product', and what pattern to follow with regards to the execution of that.
<troy_s> thorwil: I think the idea in and of itself is brilliant.
<troy_s> thorwil: You immediately get access to people who are 1) Knowledgeable 2) Interested 3) Guided by knowledgeable folks 4) Plentiful (given say, a standard lecture styled class size)
<thorwil> exactly
<thorwil> troy_s: but i don't have the connections, and if i had, i wouldn't feel well until the things you mentioned are cleared up
<thorwil> so we stay where we are
<troy_s> thorwil: Exactly!
<troy_s> thorwil: I could probably wrangle up a few 'high ups' at a few art schools / universities, but that again requires that those issues were 'set'.
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't know the interest factor.  I would suspect there might be some very deep interest from say, an particular core course.
<thorwil> could be a great project regarding branding, even corporate identity
<troy_s> thorwil: Well I personally would like to see where someone would take it given that sort of group scenario.
<troy_s> thorwil: It would make for at least a finished implementation -- of course it would also require some capable folks to be a liaison between the 'tech' and the 'ideas'.
<troy_s> thorwil: Given a free discussion of constraints versus desire, I don't see why it couldn't work.
<thorwil> ack
<troy_s> ack?
<thorwil> acknowledged :)
<troy_s> ah lol.  not hip enough.  sorry.
<thorwil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACK
<troy_s> Weird -- I keep clicking the 'get mail' button to look for julien's daily update.
<troy_s> It's not there.
<thorwil> never noticed a pattern
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> a strong believe in democracy, collaboration and equal participation is ... cute
<troy_s> thorwil: Sad.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is exactly more or less where we end up now.
<troy_s> thorwil: File a bug against a given thing and push everything towards a middle grey sh*teness.
<troy_s> I rather gave up when I read the post that said something about funding.
<thorwil> troy_s: say, how many on the current active list members were around when that much blogged artwork rollback happened?
<troy_s> Good design / art / presentation has _nothing_ to do with money thrown at a project.
<troy_s> If it did, Microsoft's would be stunning for Vista.  It certainly isn't (in various capacities).
<thorwil> nah, don't go black and white
<troy_s> thorwil: Can't say.
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't think there is a way to compare active list members to other elements.
<troy_s> thorwil: I know a few are still reading the list (as I chat with some)
<troy_s> thorwil: There are about 5-10 who are greatly enjoying the irony of the situation.
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> the list must be good for something, and if it is entertainment
<troy_s> thorwil: Well it is also a good barometer of numbers - as well as Launchpad's team membership.
<BHSPitLappy> it... measures... pressure?
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: A barometer of 'interest' you fecker.
<BHSPitLappy> don't you mean a meter of interest
<BHSPitLappy> you can't say like, "a thermometer of speed" or something
<BHSPitLappy> measure of interest
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: It is used quite often outside of that specific realm.  "performance often is used as a barometer for global economic health" "... as a barometer of global health because Australia's exports are seen as ..."
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: (Taken from a quick google)
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, they're talking about the pressure imposed by global health :P
<troy_s> lol
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-29
<Tm_T> kwwii: slep me when you're online
<thorwil> troy_s: do you already have something for the ideas/hated-bugs site? i just completed a few dirty thumbnail sketches and might continue with turning them into presentable sketches
<troy_s> thorwil: No, I was waiting on info.
<Tm_T> troy_s: hi
<troy_s> Tm_T: Hello.
<Tm_T> troy_s: what you think about having default theme (and related) as theme option both in GNOME and KDE
<troy_s> Tm_T: You are quite aware it does not matter what I think, correct?
<Tm_T> troy_s: yes
<Tm_T> (btw KDE theme selection is from that dark spot)
<troy_s> Tm_T:  And I have zero pull with anything aside from a few of my own nose hairs.
<Tm_T> troy_s: I have no idea what you're trying to tell but thanks ;)
<troy_s> troy_s: Do you mean having the same theme available on both platforms?
<Tm_T> troy_s: no, but, I haven't seen in Kubuntu atleast any "theme" to go back to default
<troy_s> Tm_T: Hrm... unclear here.
<Tm_T> troy_s: as in, there's some default "theme" but it's not saved, thus not available as easy going back
<troy_s> Tm_T: Do you mean a Kubuntu taupe blah rather like Ubuntu proper?
<troy_s> Tm_T: Oh it will be there somewhere I would assume.  I don't use KDE, so you would require someone who knows the layout system.
<Tm_T> troy_s: aye, thats why I was poking kwwii
<Tm_T> troy_s: anyway, just as opinion, you think one should be there?
<Tm_T> it's trivial to make available
<troy_s> Tm_T: Well that seems like a no brainer really.
<troy_s> Tm_T: Of course, many things I consider 'no brainers' are apparently 'huge big deals'.
<Tm_T> troy_s: ?
<troy_s> Tm_T: It would appear to be completely silly to _not_ have the default theme listed there.
<Tm_T> troy_s: aye
<Tm_T> I don't know why
<troy_s> Tm_T: Are you certain it isn't local to your installation correct?
<Tm_T> troy_s: well it wasn't me needing it, but never seen it here either
<thorwil> hmm. would a thumb-down image work better with the back of the hand towards the viewer or away from the viewer?
<andreasn> thorwil: I usually draw the back of the hand towards
<thorwil> well, will do for the sketch
<andreasn> thumbs up feels more natural showing the fingers for some reason
<andreasn> :)
<thorwil> yeah. can't use that for most hated bugs, though :)
<andreasn> oh, yeah, hehe
<Tm_T> inner hand is "friendly" and outer is "closing out" by intuitive way
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-30
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> hi all, /me is online for a few minutes if you need anything important
<thorwil> kwwii: well ... hab' nen guten rutsch! ;)
<thorwil> good night!
<troy_s> kwwii: wb.
<kwwii> oops, I missed thorwil ;-(
<kwwii> hi troy_s
 * kwwii is sitting in a cafe reading emails :p
<kwwii> troy_s: I posted a link with some color ideas, check it out and let me know what you think
<troy_s> kwwii: I think the palette unto itself is beyond expectation.
<troy_s> kwwii: Still facing the rather bold task of breaching the wall of 'we cannot connote any concept' to Voldemort.
<troy_s> kwwii: Great palette for a number of earthy concepts though.
<kwwii> yeah, I cannot wait to hear his response
<kwwii> also, I tried defining the audience, I am more worried that it will never ever be accepted
<troy_s> kwwii: My gut says that you should probably only bother with the basic fundamental anchor tones.  Less is more.
<troy_s> (otherwise we can imagine the result)
<kwwii> I was also worried that it would be too many colors
<troy_s> kwwii: It probably wont.  The reality is that we need something far better than 'everyone' though.  And hell, I would love to see people design a little more 'gender neutral' stuffs -- it is pretty heavy on the masculine side of things for a good chunk of it.
<kwwii> I think I will reduce the number of shades of each color and add another compliment
<troy_s> kwwii: I think the hues are very realistic in numbers -- adding the value shifts is great for a 'working palette' but it scares me the folks who will inevitably take darkest x and mix with lightest y.
<troy_s> kwwii: but as damian said so astutely, palette alone is rather worthless.
<kwwii> I was thinking about the feminine aspect just yesterday, that is very hard for a male without a lot of experience to pin down I htink
<troy_s> mandatory at some point, but worthless at our juncture.
<kwwii> right
<troy_s> kwwii: I don't mean cliched femininity but
<troy_s> just 'less masculine' i guess would be the best thing I could describe it as.
<troy_s> for a default
<kwwii> I doubt that we will get anything usefull out of this process for hardy anyway
<kwwii> but if we take the right first steps perhaps that will make the next cycle easier
<troy_s> smart money is on taking elephant sources, build a very slim minimalist gdm
<troy_s> use elephant as base
<kwwii> or at least learn what we screwed up on this time around :p
<kwwii> yeah, elephant is already in as default, right?
<troy_s> it isn't a 'shocker', it has been seen by a number, has the greatest support of any of the 'default' stuffs.
<kwwii> sommerville said he got that done at least
<troy_s> well it is in the additionals
<troy_s> we still have vista.
<troy_s> oh -- hardy?
<kwwii> erm, it should be in as default for hardy now
<troy_s> i will say having installed on two laptops (and thinking about defaults) elephant reads pretty dark on the lower powered lcds.
<troy_s> but again, that heads into bikeshed.
<troy_s> (and you would probably need to get that naff orange into something that works a little more in tandem with elephant.)
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> it is a good start to show diretion though
<kwwii> for hardy we will not change things radically so we can really test this process out
<kwwii> well, I am heading back off to my mom's house now
<kwwii> probably be back online sometime tomorrow again
<troy_s> kwwii: Before you jet.
<troy_s> kwwii: GDM I know is a sticky issue with our 'marketing' experts out there (nameless)
<troy_s> kwwii: I wonder if it would be possible (if elephant is base wallpaper) to put an extremely subtle fade from centre opaque to _subtle_ elephant texture vignetting the GDM screen.
<troy_s> kwwii: Follow?
<troy_s> kwwii: It would at least provide a little visual motif echo.
<troy_s> (and extremely subtle otherwise the army of voices would probably storm the castle)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-22
<dilomo> thorwil: good morning
<thorwil> good morning dilomo
<dilomo> thorwil: Can I ask you one technical question?
<thorwil> dilomo: you can always ask, the answer is another matter ;)
<dilomo> thorwil: :) How can I anti-alaise the edge on the image:
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229938468.png
<dilomo> I cutted it from metacity's theme and I'm making an emerald one
<thorwil> dilomo: rebuilding that in inkscape might be faster than doing it manually
<dilomo> I did it but it does not match very well
<thorwil> dilomo: if you want to do it manually, you should open 2 views, one in 1:1, the other zoomed in to work on
<dilomo> how could I do that?
<thorwil> dilomo: then use the pencil with reduced alpha. hold Ctrl to use the color picker
<thorwil> dilomo: i think that's in the View menu
<alex_21> Does anyone know where I can find pictures of the textures of fruits? Like a Kiwi textured picture? It is for a Ubuntu Application I am writting
<alex_21> Writing, sorry
<dilomo> thorwil: I got the method
<thorwil> alex_21: i use google image search for my reference needs. usually satisfying
<dilomo> thorwil: how much it should blend away? Are two steps ok at 60 and 40%?
<thorwil> alex_21: doesn't look like a bad start: http://images.google.de/images?q=kiwi+texture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi&gbv=1&ei=M2BPScGYI4rQ0AX667CEBA
<alex_21> Yeah, but they aren't labeled nicely
<alex_21> And being blind, I require niely labeled pictures
<alex_21> Nicely, sorry
<thorwil> alex_21: oh, ok. i guess there's no way around the fact that you need assistance, then
<thorwil> dilomo: perhaps start with 50
<thorwil> dilomo: or use a low value like 20 or 10 and click several times in a place as needed
<alex_21> Never mind. I am reconcidering my comments about Google image search. It is much better than I remember
<alex_21> And since I have a very, very little bit of sight, I can zoom in quite big
<dilomo> thorwil: thanks for the tip
<thorwil> np
<alex_21> And see a little bit of it
<alex_21> Thanks a lot
<alex_21> That is briliant
<alex_21> And what is the lisence on these iages? Or the rules for including them in Applications
<alex_21> ?
<alex_21> Images, sorry
<thorwil> alex_21: image search doesn't care about license. you must assume that they are not free to use, that you rae not allowed to distribute them
<alex_21> Ok, so what was the point of telling me to look there then, apart from me finding a cool search, smiley
<alex_21> Lol, where can I get some I can use
<alex_21> Download and use just like that
<thorwil> alex_21: it could have been the case that you need pictures not for direct use, but as reference ...
<alex_21> I think this is what I neded: http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3008094/2/istockphoto_3008094_kiwi_fruit_skin_texture.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/food/fruits/kiwi_fruit/3008094_kiwi_fruit_skin_texture.php%3Fid%3D3008094&usg=__Z9X-_IRoNf3zQY1YEoRBRXqqKVk=&h=380&w=380&sz=142&hl=de&start=5&um=1&tbnid=9bW7AIj6ecm-lM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3D
<alex_21> kiwi%2Btexture%26gbv%3D2%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial%26sa%3DN
<thorwil> alex_21: finding images with free licenses is much harder
<alex_21> Needed, sorry
<dilomo> thorwil: man I can't do it. The sole problem is in the hard-edged black pixels.
<alex_21> thorwil: Where is there a resource for this kind of stuff?
<thorwil> alex_21: creative commons has an image search, but i just tried and it delivers nothing!
<alex_21> I mean if you know of one
<alex_21> Please
<alex_21> Oh, ok, but where is this search on creative commons?
<thorwil> alex_21: actually it's a generic search: http://search.creativecommons.org/
<alex_21> Oh, thanks, I will bookmark it
<alex_21> Thanks for all your help you are most helpful
<alex_21> It is greatly appreciated
<alex_21> Good night. Bani bash
<thorwil> alex_21: one moment
<thorwil> alex_21: flickr allows to search fro creative commons licensed images on their advanced search
<thorwil> alex_21: you might be better of asking on the ubuntu forum if somebody can photograph a kiwi for you
<thorwil> alex_21: no problem, good night :)
<dilomo> thorwil: how would you recommend to smooth the black pixels?
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229938468.png
<dilomo> alex_21: good night
<alex_21> Hey, the first result for kiwi is ok I think on the creative commons search
<alex_21> What do you think?
<thorwil> alex_21: you checked "Search for works I can use for commercial purposes" and "Search for works I can modify, adapt, or build upon."?
<alex_21> Oh, no
<alex_21> I don't see that option
<thorwil> alex_21: how about http://flickr.com/photos/globetrotter1937/2186754177/sizes/o/
<alex_21> How about http://search.creativecommons.org/#
<alex_21> What is the one you sent me?
<alex_21> Thorwill: What is the one you sent me?
<alex_21> Thorwil: What is the one you sent me?
<thorwil> dilomo: you try to build an outline with the same radius, just a black line in inkscpae, export that. then erase the black from the image and layer the export above that
<thorwil> dilomo: or just study how that aa looks in the export to mimic it
<alex_21> And what is its licence?
<thorwil> alex_21: it's a fruit basket with nuts on the side and kiwis in the middle
<dilomo> thorwil:  good point
<thorwil> alex_21: the license is cc-by-sa 2.0
<alex_21> What is this?
<alex_21> http://flickr.com/photos/ithcy/81689926/
<thorwil> alex_21: that means you can redistribute it and adapt it. you have to give credit to the photographer
<thorwil> alex_21: that's a young child that didn't enjoy the first spoonful of kiwi fruit
<alex_21> Oh, lol
<alex_21> But yours sounds good, how do I give credit to the photographer, in what form is it expected?
<thorwil> alex_21: afaik the license says it's up to the author how attribution should happen. but very few do. generally, you should list his name and link to the source, the flickr page in this case
<thorwil> alex_21: and the license
<alex_21> Oh, thanks a million. I'd hae looked stupid if I had used the image I thought was good
<alex_21> Had, sorry
<alex_21> The one of the child who didn't enjoy the kiwi
<thorwil> alex_21: note that cc license are not compatible with the gpl. so you can't wrap the application and such images and say the whole thing is gpl
<thorwil> yeah :)
<alex_21> Well, wink, It is late, and I'm going to bed
<alex_21> Good night. Bani bash
<thorwil> sleep you very well :)
<alex_21> You too
<dilomo> I have to go out
<dilomo> bye
<kwwii> everyone should give marks blog a read
<knome> kwwii, link
<kwwii> markshuttleworth.com
<_MMA_> Google FTW! :P
<knome> :P
<knome> lazyness ftw
<_MMA_> Uh, no. ;)
<knome> yus!
<_MMA_> kwwii: You got some wallpaper in the works to throw into Jaunty for the time being? Would be nice to see something different when testing disks.
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, I don't have anything but I agree that it would be a good idea
<_MMA_> Maybe that would be a nice little project for the ml? A bacis development wallpaper that we could just change text on from release to release?
<_MMA_> I do something like it with Studio.
<kwwii> _MMA_: definitely
<kwwii> I'll send an email in a bit
<kwwii> I am busy responding to all the emails I got over the weekend
<kwwii> sent
<_MMA_> Damn wireless.
<thorwil> kwwii: i'll have to see if one of my concepts would be suitable or if i might be able to creat a jackalope wallpaper in a day. still have to get back to css-engine svg widgets :/
<kwwii> thorwil: cool, let me know if you need anything
<eddyf> hi
<eddyf> does anyone here do graphics work for free?
<nand> you better precise your request before anyone answer with a sarcastic comment...
<_MMA_> haha
<_MMA_> eddyf: I think you'll find in here, if it's for Ubuntu, then yes. But generally I would say no. It would depend on the details really.
 * nand wonders if he can has a free cheezburger
<Flannel> nand: Only if its an Ubuntu cheeseburger
 * _MMA_ hands nand a Buntuburger w/cheez.
<nand> D'oh! A donnut-cheeseburger!
<_MMA_> :P
<nand> :)
 * darkmatter poisons all your buntuburger then munches a geekowrap
<_MMA_> Nerds!!!
<thorwil> on irc? never
 * nand invokes a level 37 Buntuburger baker for dinner tonight
<thorwil> so cimi has a new laptop, thanks to donations. http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2008/12/22/wohoooooo-laptop-arrived
<thorwil> hi robsta
<robsta> hi
<_MMA_> Nice. Maybe it will get him to make a Murrine release. ;)
<robsta> what's new, thorwil
<_MMA_> So I guess eddyf only wanted a monkey to do free art. Sad.
<thorwil> robsta: not much. last time i worked on the widget svg, all imanaged was to change the background color again and again :}
<robsta> thorwil: maybe this too easy, then :P
<thorwil> robsta: nah. it's actually tricky because neither neutral gray nor something coffee like are quite right. and it must be right as base for all widget colors
<thorwil> robsta: the good thing is that i have lots of free time until the 5th
<robsta> thorwil: me too, means skiing though :)
<robsta> thorwil: anyway, does the bg color not come from the color scheme?
<thorwil> robsta: i need the color in the svg to adjust things. i don't expect it to be read from there
<robsta> right
<robsta> thorwil: i'll try to do a simple minimal flat pixmap-less theme, so i can finally get the release out
<thorwil> ok
<robsta> probably similar to the old gorilla theme
<robsta> thorwil: is there a way to get notified when the wiki changes, or will you be posting to the list anyway?
 * _MMA_ needs to figure out how to subscribe to "root" pages.
<_MMA_> robsta: Yes. Look at the top of the page. SHould say "Subscribe" somewhere.
<thorwil> robsta: yes, but for you a push to the repo is the interesting thing. i don't think i will spend much time documenting this on the wiki
<thorwil> robsta: i will notify you personally, anyway
<robsta> ok, thanks _MMA_, thorwil
<thorwil> all day easy going, suddenly people in 3 channels want to talk with me :)
<_MMA_> thorwil!
<_MMA_> thorwil!!
<_MMA_> thorwil!!!
<_MMA_> :P
 * robsta shutting up already
 * thorwil blasts _MMA_ with leightweight fluffball music
<thorwil> robsta: no worries
 * _MMA_ likes fluffy music. :) It's Country music I despise. :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: half the music? but you do like Bluegrass, or?
<_MMA_> Well, it's more that I don't like the last 10-15 years or so of commercial Country music. I consider Bluegrass different and take it on a more artist-by-artist case.
<robsta> see you
<_MMA_> Bye
<thorwil> cya
 * thorwil messed it up, it was country and western. blues brothers
<_MMA_> mmmm....
 * _MMA_ can has cheezburger.
<kwwii> _MMA_: speaking about country music, these days it is all country-western and not real country
<kwwii> hank williams sr and such were amazing
<_MMA_> kwwii: Agreed, but there's still something about that twang I hate. :)
<dilomo> thorwil: Can you please test if the theme in the package installs ok?
<dilomo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/NewWave#Downloads
<dilomo> I'm going to update gnome-look and I don't want any failures
<thorwil> dilomo: sorry, bad timing. i'm logging out for today :/ cya :)
<dilomo> ok bye=======
<aantn> the new notification code looks interesting
<MadsRH> aantn -> Has the code been released?
<aantn> MadsRH: As far as I can tell, no
<aantn> (I was referring to the concept)
<MadsRH> oh ;-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-23
<thorwil> http://www.macouno.com/patterns
<troy_s> Happy holidays to all.
<knome> you too.
<thorwil> hit and run greetings. nasty!
 * knome tickles thorwil 
 * knome runs
<thorwil> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1019714
<thorwil> good night :)
<DBO> hey guys
<aantn> hey DBO ;)
<DBO> hey ;)
<DBO> you wouldn't happen to be an artist would you?
<aantn> DBO: nah, I just live here
<DBO> awww damn, i need an artist to eye over Docky
<DBO> tell me whats messing with its chi
<kwwii> DBO: what's up...I am sure we can help :-)
<kwwii> DBO: perhaps send an email to the list
 * kwwii is passing out soon (minutes)
<DBO> kwwii, i need feedback on the look and feel of a program
<kwwii> but your request should be heard
<DBO> its a new interface for GNOME Do
<DBO> are you familiar for Do at all?
<kwwii> DBO: send am email to the list or to me directlyy
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> kwwii
<kwwii> at
<kwwii> ubuntu
<kwwii> dot
<kwwii> dome
<kwwii> duh
<kwwii> com
<DBO> sweet, I will send you our release doc
<DBO> it will give you an overview
<kwwii> and with that, good night, german time is killing me and I gotta get up tomorrow and cook dinner for 8 people
<DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/DockyReleaseNotes.odt
<DBO> you can get it there
<DBO> actually
<kwwii> cool, send me an email so I don't forget
<aantn> DBO: is this you https://twitter.com/DBO ?
<kwwii> no, not in any way
<kwwii>  :-)
<DBO> aantn, mmmm
<DBO> maybe?
<DBO> no
<DBO> i am deebeeoh
<DBO> that tard stole my name
<aantn> DBO: ok :)
 * aantn needs to run
<aantn> dinner time
<aantn> :)
<aantn> bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-24
<luisbg> gotta love when apple gets the reflections very wrong
<luisbg> http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EHZsoUS6SIA/SVAWYFPjbrI/AAAAAAAACcw/MT4J82na-Ng/apple_reflect.jpg
<gaminggeek> DBO: still here?
<DBO> gaminggeek, yeah
<DBO> whats up?
<gaminggeek> you were asking for opinions about docky
<DBO> i am asking for them
<DBO> you got one? =)
<DBO> or you need more info?
<gaminggeek> how does it work with do?
<gaminggeek> or is it something new?
<DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/DockyReleaseNotes.odt
<DBO> that has a lot of the relevant data
<gaminggeek> IMHO it looks very slick
<DBO> oh you saw it
<gaminggeek> yea looking at that document
<DBO> it is a user interface for Do
<DBO> it will be in the text release
<DBO> i want feedback on its look and feel
<gaminggeek> so it replaces the old one?
<DBO> things that would be cool
<DBO> well you can select it
<DBO> there are 5 ui's in the next release
<DBO> each with a different target
<gaminggeek> transparency would be nice :D
<DBO> it is, you just cant see it on that wallpaper
<gaminggeek> ah ok then
<gaminggeek> oh I see how it works now
<DBO> yep
<gaminggeek> I have no comments really
<gaminggeek> looks slick :)
<DBO> it has been a LOT of work
<DBO> i have been working on it for a long time now
<DBO> and been through way more revisions than you ever want to know
<gaminggeek> looks very nice :D
<DBO> the right click menus (not shown in that document) are incredible
<DBO> some of the best work I have done on it
<gaminggeek> I like the current do user interface but I think I would give it a try :)
<DBO> yeah, its actually pretty fun
<gaminggeek> have you got a demo?
<DBO> only if you want to build bzr...
<gaminggeek> hmm not really feeling that keen :)
<DBO> i understand
<DBO> there will be a PPA out january
<gaminggeek> does that highlight text change depending on your gtk theme?
<DBO> no
<DBO> i wanted to completely control the theme of the dock
<gaminggeek> ok
<DBO> I even when I use gtk widgets i override the theming
<gaminggeek> well then I dont know if I like the colour of it..
<gaminggeek> I am being really strugling for things to see though
<DBO> what?
<gaminggeek> the blue colour
<DBO> oh
<gaminggeek> in the when you type something screen
<DBO> it works out ok because of the way you work with it though
<DBO> there were two ways we went with the blue highlights you see
<DBO> the first time I did it I made them very VERY bright
<DBO> brighter than the surrounding text (which was not full white)
<DBO> and they stood out
<DBO> but this actually proved to be very distracting when you are typing
<DBO> it makes your eye go all over the screen
<gaminggeek> ah
<DBO> so instead we made the "highlighted" items be less bright, and it lets your eyes rest more naturally
<gaminggeek> ok then :)
<DBO> it looks like a pain, but in usuage, you already know what it says
<gaminggeek> very good then :)
<DBO> so do you like the dark dock?
<gaminggeek> indeed I do :)
<DBO> also, next release all the other UI's are animated
<gaminggeek> but I am using a dark theme atm
<DBO> so they expand smoothly and crossfade icons
<gaminggeek> so it will fit in nicly with that
<gaminggeek> sexy :)
<DBO> yeah
<DBO> i have been working REALLY hard on UI's
<gaminggeek> what does the big X do?
<DBO> show my fail
<gaminggeek> lol
<gaminggeek> first guess would be close the dock
<DBO> no
<gaminggeek> second guess would be close the window
<DBO> its just the icon you get when I fail to figure out what icon to give an application
<gaminggeek> oooooh
<gaminggeek> righto :D
<DBO> there will be a better generic icon on release
<gaminggeek> maybe a ? would be a better icon for that :)
<DBO> and i am still working on optimizing the matching
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<DBO> but the big X makes it obvious for me
<gaminggeek> fair enough :D
<DBO> it used to be red
<gaminggeek> what about window management?
<DBO> it does the works
<gaminggeek> ah cool :)
<DBO> i dare say it does it better than awn and the likes
<DBO> everything is treated as an application
<DBO> GIMP gets one icon, not three
<gaminggeek> what about apps with multiple windows
<gaminggeek> like firefox's download thingy
<DBO> one icon
<DBO> but you can access the individual windows
<DBO> by right click
<DBO> there is a list of them
<gaminggeek> oh sweet :)
<gaminggeek> although sometimes you dont know that they are there
<DBO> and like I said, that menu is BEAUTIFUL
<gaminggeek> ok well I'm gonna have to try this now :)
<DBO> yeah I am going to add an indicator for multiple
<gaminggeek> you use bzr?
<DBO> yes
<DBO> code.launchpad.net/~jassmith/do/trunk
<DBO> lemme get you a screenshot of the right click menu
<DBO> then I gotta run
<gaminggeek> ok :)
<DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/Screenshot-1.png
<DBO> still syncing
<gaminggeek> how do you checkout with bzr?
<DBO> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/269345/Screenshot-1.png
<DBO> now it is there
<DBO> bzr branch lp:~jassmith/do/trunk
<gaminggeek> oo cool :)
<DBO> thats the right click menu
<DBO> i gotta go now
<gaminggeek> alright
<DBO> movie with the ladies
<DBO> later
<gaminggeek> have fun ;)
 * darkmatter can no longer survive without the Do
<darkmatter> for a ripoff of third-party mac software it's pretty damn good :P
<gaminggeek> lol yea :)
<gaminggeek> when it crashed on me once I felt like I had lost something vital :)
<darkmatter> hehe
<gaminggeek> bah how the hell do you use bzr?
<darkmatter> gah.. I can't remember. it's been about two years since the last time I used it
<gaminggeek> its proving to be a PITA :P
<gaminggeek> and now just checkout works -_-
<gaminggeek> sorta..
<gaminggeek> wait no bzr: ERROR: Invalid http response for http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ejassmith/do/trunk/.bzr/repository/packs/13c1a79f1ad3d00c00f1c908392a02da.pack: Expected a boundary ()Abxh3TPWRgeYBTfpd3h) line, got ''
<gaminggeek> anyway bbl
<gaminggeek> DBO
<DBO> yeah?
<gaminggeek> ah finished with the movie
<gaminggeek> ok I installed do from your repo
<gaminggeek> now how do I get the sexiness?
<gaminggeek> I assumed it was the theme but that is greyed out
<gaminggeek> ok I got it
<gaminggeek> I had to start compiz :)
<gaminggeek> oh wow that is cool!
<DBO> leave feedback, gotta go again, really sorry
<gaminggeek> when you have multiple windows you click the app and both come up :)
<gaminggeek> very nice :D
<gaminggeek> what about a workspace switcher?
<gaminggeek> that little dot thing is really hard to find if you dont know what your looking for
<gaminggeek> hi njpatel why does your name sound familiar?
<njpatel> gaminggeek: er, because of AWN maybe?
<gaminggeek> ahh yea :)
<gaminggeek> thought it might have been but I wasnt sure :)
<njpatel> :-)
<kwwii> real hackers don't stop for christmas, eh Neil?
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> moin moin
<kwwii> nifty idea with the music, btw
<thorwil> :)
<kwwii> I was tempted to do one in german just so you could hear my accent :p
<knome> zomg
<kwwii> or perhaps with a frankonian dialekt
<thorwil> kwwii: i'm at one finnish contribution so far. so no need to get fancy at all ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: I can do a series of english ones in our studio...just gotta find the time after christmas
<thorwil> cool
<thorwil> looks like the forum is letting me down once more. page 4 with 32 views and no reply
<thorwil> luckily the response on the linux audio users list was quite good
<kwwii> the forum is probably not the right place to get people to work on something(anything)...
<kwwii> oh well, back to cooking for tonight
<DBO> alright gaminggeek, i is back
<gaminggeek> ah
<gaminggeek> brb
<DBO> njpatel, are you stalking me
<njpatel> DBO: heh, I was here first :-D
<DBO> yeah yeah
<gaminggeek> I found a few bugs..
<DBO> njpatel, where can I find your window matching code
<DBO> gaminggeek, I am sure =)
<DBO> I would love to hear them so I can fix them before initial release =)
<gaminggeek> with the cube plugin at least and you select a window on a different desktop it seems to freeze untill you mouse over the dock again
<gaminggeek> and it doesnt go below fullscreen apps
<gaminggeek> which is anoying if you watching a movie in totem
<DBO> the second one I knew about
<njpatel> DBO: At the moment is pretty incomplete, it just matches on pid (if we started the program through a launcher) or tries and Exec= line match from the desktop file to the wm_class of the window. I hope to spend more time over the holidays fixing all that up
<DBO> I will work on the cube thing
<DBO> njpatel, that is essentially what I am doing...
<DBO> njpatel, i am also inspecting /proc
<njpatel> DBO: yep, in this case there aren't many different ways to do the same thing
<DBO> yeah
<gaminggeek> also if you minimise a window change desktop and then click the minimised window it changes desktop but doesnt unminimise the window
<DBO> what about your icon finding code?
<DBO> hmmm mine does
<DBO> you are using compiz?
<njpatel> DBO: for loading icons for desktop files?
<DBO> for random windows
<gaminggeek> DBO: yep using compiz
<DBO> gaminggeek, strange
<njpatel> again, there is none at the moment, but the best bet would be to try and match the window to an existing desktop file
<DBO> I will add an explicit call to unminimize gaminggeek, just to try to help with that
<DBO> njpatel, thats what I am doing
<DBO> njpatel, i find open office is a son of a gun to get right
<gaminggeek> it would be nice to have some kind of implementation of the window managers URGENT tag :)
<DBO> i am thinking I am going to have to special case open office before release
<DBO> gaminggeek, good point
<DBO> i should do that for sure
<gaminggeek> :)
<njpatel> DBO: Yep, it's basically impossible to get right, they have the most convoluted way of launching their application/setting wm_class name etc
<DBO> frustrating
<DBO> we should file a bug
<gaminggeek> I wish Abiword worked better then I could kick openoffice to the curb
<gaminggeek> one thing that will stop me using this in the long term is sometimes I need to turn of compositing
<gaminggeek> for 3d apps like blender or warcraft in wine ;)
<DBO> gaminggeek, ok the minimize thing is fixed
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<gaminggeek> is it in bzr?
<DBO> in a moment
<gaminggeek> ok
<DBO> rev 824 should hopefully fix it for you
<gaminggeek> wow that is alot of revs..
<gaminggeek> ok how do you svn up in bzr?
<DBO> bzr pull
<gaminggeek> hmm my trash has gone..
<gaminggeek> back again..
<gaminggeek> that is one thing that shouldnt reall go..
<DBO> what do you mean by freeze on cube rotate gaminggeek
<DBO> your trash?
<gaminggeek> yea the trash icon
<DBO> its not really in the dock in any special way
<DBO> it just ended up there because you used it from Do
<gaminggeek> ah ok :)
<gaminggeek> what is a good screen recording app?
<DBO> please dont record this yet =)
<DBO> i want feedback but really dont want youtube videos out yet
<gaminggeek> ah I was just gonna record the bug because its really hard to explain
<DBO> oh ok
<DBO> gtk-recordmydesktop
<gaminggeek> it basicly doesnt get repainted
<gaminggeek> untill you mouse over it
<gaminggeek> so if you change desktop and move your mouse out of the way fast
<gaminggeek> I can take a screenshot acctually
<DBO> oh I get it
<DBO> yeah I can fix that
<gaminggeek> it is fully functional
<DBO> its just not seeing your mouse leave
<gaminggeek> it's just stuck untill you mouse over
<gaminggeek> yea
<DBO> ok I reproduced it
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<DBO> man thats hard to do on a laptop
<gaminggeek> that one is annoying :)
<gaminggeek> I'm on a laptop :P
<gaminggeek> I just have a higher mouse sensitivty or something :)
<DBO> gaminggeek, do you have a full screen mouse I can test with?
<DBO> gaminggeek, i think its because I have a VERY fast switch time on compiz
<DBO> i dont like to wait
<gaminggeek> a fullscreen mouse?!
<DBO> erm
<DBO> full screen application
<gaminggeek> I have totem..
<DBO> totem causes it?
<DBO> what application did you have issues with?
<gaminggeek> with the switching?
<gaminggeek> all apps
<DBO> it no respecting full screen windows
<gaminggeek> ohh totem was the one that I used
<DBO> hmmm totem works for me...
<gaminggeek> and firefox in fullscreen mode
<DBO> mplayer fail
<DBO> i will fix this
<gaminggeek> its more obvious with hiding turned off
<DBO> probably
<gaminggeek> your dock is ridiculously smooth :)
<gaminggeek> and fast
<gaminggeek> its nice :)
<DBO> yeah, the cairo guys did a great job helping me out
<DBO> we went over every surface and figured out the most optimal way to utilize it
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<gaminggeek> you can tell alot of care and attention has gone into this :)
<DBO> sweet, that fixed autohide
<gaminggeek> something that would be nice is a very subtle blur on the transparent part of the dock but I dont know if you can do that...
<DBO> no i cant sadly
<gaminggeek> :(
<DBO> I can set a hint for compiz to do it
<DBO> and if you have the blur pluggin enabled it will
<DBO> but i fear that would ruin the smooth performance I already have =(
<gaminggeek> :(
<gaminggeek> never mind then
<DBO> ok the fullscreen window fix is in bzr now
<gaminggeek> sweet :D
<DBO> and now for the cube fix
<gaminggeek> :)
<gaminggeek> then the only problem will be with apps like pidgin or banshee which go into the docking thingy
<DBO> ok I think I got it
<DBO> yep
<DBO> they effectively "close" themselves
<DBO> when they do that
<DBO> so in the interest of being consistent, I dont track them in the case
<DBO> if they close their window instead of minimizing, so be it
<gaminggeek> yea its a problem with the design of the docking thingmy not your app :)
<DBO> rev 826 fixes your cube issue
<DBO> anything else you notice?
<gaminggeek> thats about it really
<DBO> btw, three bugs in one night, awesome man, wish i could have more beta testers like you =)
<gaminggeek> lol thank you :D
<gaminggeek> the only other thing is that little dot to turn on hiding is really hard to find..
<gaminggeek> and I have pidgin next to it and it looked like I was going to select pidgin rather than the hiding thingy
<gaminggeek> oh yea there was one thing
<gaminggeek> desktop changing...
<DBO> yeah?
<DBO> not fixed?
<gaminggeek> no the little desktop changing applet
<DBO> oh yeah, that will probably have to be a V 2.0 feature
<gaminggeek> ok sweet :)
<gaminggeek> oh yea it looks funny when starting up
<DBO> yeah i know...
<gaminggeek> and defaults to typing mode rather than dockmode
<DBO> you can fix that if you open preferences and select the quiet startup
<gaminggeek> ok sweet :)
<DBO> in the general tab
<gaminggeek> yea I know where it is :)
<gaminggeek> then the only thing is the strange start up
<DBO> will look at it but the fix might be "dont render till everything is perfect"
<gaminggeek> yea that would be the fix that I would do :)
<DBO> the autohide button will be growing
<DBO> and probably gain some hover text
<DBO> or maybe just light up when you are over it
<gaminggeek> cool :D
<gaminggeek> light up and text is what I would do
<DBO> that might be worth it
<DBO> I want the interface to be playful
<DBO> also, you figured out how to resize the dock?
<gaminggeek> nope
<DBO> see the separator?
<gaminggeek> yea..
<DBO> move your icon to the top of it
<DBO> cursor that is
<gaminggeek> I draged on that and it crashed..
<DBO> oh sweet
<DBO> and traceback?
<DBO> in terminal?
<gaminggeek> I wasnt running from terminal
<gaminggeek> trying to repoduce it now :)
<DBO> thank you
<DBO> i imagine its the xcb issue again
<gaminggeek> bah cant reproduce it :'(
<DBO> yeah it happens
<DBO> thats almost certainly the xcb locking issue
<gaminggeek> oh I see how to resize it now
<gaminggeek> I was trying to drag the seperator :P
<DBO> yeah that was much more mathematically involved
<gaminggeek> resizing is a little chuggy
<DBO> yep
<gaminggeek> cant fix it?
<DBO> essentially resize performance is the render speed you get with zero optimizations
<DBO> mmm... I could not draw the icons...
<DBO> that would fix it
<gaminggeek> but then it wouldnt be sexy :)
<gaminggeek> its not worth not drawing the icons
<DBO> it might be worth considering for the additional usability
<DBO> anyhow, i gotta help a friend for a couple minutes
<DBO> back shortly
<gaminggeek> ok :)
<gaminggeek> oh I thought of something else that would be nice
<gaminggeek> ok on second thought this idea wouldnt work with more than one window
<gaminggeek> btw merry christmas from new zealand ;)
<DBO> merry christmass
<gaminggeek> what font do you use for the text in the titles?
<DBO> its just whatever pango picks as sans gaminggeek
<DBO> i will probably be converting it to the system font at some point
<gaminggeek> ok sweet :)
<DBO> all the other fonts are system fonts
<gaminggeek> because it looks funny with all my other fonts being lucinda grande
<DBO> lucinda grande
<DBO> hmmm
<gaminggeek> yea thats what I said :)
<DBO> so what was your idea anyhow?
<gaminggeek> make it the system font
<gaminggeek> but you got it so yea,,
<DBO> no the one that wont work with a second window
<gaminggeek> ohh right
<gaminggeek> just change it to the window title
<DBO> thats not a bad idea actually
<gaminggeek> ah :)
<DBO> i could easily detect if there are multiple and then go back to doing what I do now
<gaminggeek> yea :)
<DBO> also
<DBO> how do you think i should show that an icon has multiple windows open
<DBO> without right clicking
<gaminggeek> hmm
<gaminggeek> maybe more triangles..
<gaminggeek> or a different kind of maker
<DBO> thats kinda what I was thinking
<gaminggeek> an = sign or a few lines
<DBO> i was thinking of moving from triangles to a glow dot
<gaminggeek> something that would be nifty but kinda tacky at the same time and hard to do would be to have it show more than one icon, like your holding a hand of cards
<DBO> and where there are mutliple windows, use two glow dots
<DBO> too tacky and wont scale well
<gaminggeek> yea
<gaminggeek> dots would be cool
<DBO> i will do that
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<gaminggeek> can you do fake transparency for when compositing is not available?
<DBO> no
<DBO> well yes
<DBO> but it would be bad...
<gaminggeek> bad fake transparency is better than the mess that you get when you have no compositing
<gaminggeek> or do you mean it would make your code ugly?
<DBO> Do wont let you start the dock without compositing
<DBO> it will let you disable compositing after starting the dock however...
<DBO> but that will be BAD
<gaminggeek> yea
<gaminggeek> gah I added something that I didnt want to by mistake how do I get rid of it?
<DBO> drag it off
<gaminggeek> ah nifty :)
<DBO> thanks ya
<gaminggeek> gah no skype icon
<DBO> oops, can you tell me what it says when you hover?
<gaminggeek> <skypeusername> - skypetm
<DBO> weird
<DBO> i can see why it fails
<DBO> i will try to fix skype, it can only help my icon detection
<DBO> I have disabled "fuzzy" icons
<DBO> if you notice, there should be no fuzzy icons on your dock
<DBO> I could easily get fuzzy icons, i just want to try to not have to
<gaminggeek> xine is still fuzzy
<DBO> really?
<DBO> damn
<DBO> ok, one fail
<gaminggeek> well I might not be running the right Rev
<DBO> no you are fine
<gaminggeek> is this a new development?
<DBO> no
<gaminggeek> ah ok
<DBO> i am working on skype icon now
<gaminggeek> and pidgin
<DBO> pidgin fail?
<DBO> no way
<gaminggeek> well what do you mean by fuzzy?
<DBO> oh its fuzzy
<DBO> well yes, there is a limit
<DBO> your icon theme does matter
<DBO> some icon themes are better than others
<gaminggeek> ah well its not fuzzy but its not smooth and nice like the vectors
<DBO> yeah
<DBO> its a png
<DBO> scaled
<gaminggeek> indeed
<DBO> i cant do much about that
<gaminggeek> the scaling it nicer than others though
<DBO> yeah because I am doing it reverse from most
<gaminggeek> brb gotta put the cat out
<DBO> I pick the icon as big as it ever get
<DBO> s
<DBO> and then scale it down
<gaminggeek> ah :)
<gaminggeek> hmm if you use pidgin it sets the buddy icon of the active contact
<DBO> really?
<gaminggeek> it doesnt relflect this in your doc
<gaminggeek> k
<gaminggeek> yea
<DBO> i dont use pidgin
<gaminggeek> I notested :)
<gaminggeek> that what an atrocious attempt of spelling that..
<gaminggeek> is firefox a vector?
<DBO> depends on your icons
<gaminggeek> well in default ubuntu
<DBO> no idea
<DBO> i dont re-render the vector at each scale however
<DBO> its perfect at max and min size
<DBO> and in between it gets fuzzy
<gaminggeek> ah for the vectors
<gaminggeek> how do you do the inbetween sizes?
<gaminggeek> just scale it?
<DBO> yes
<DBO> performance demands it
<DBO> rendering vectors can take 2 or 3 ms
<DBO> span that over 10 or 15 icons
<gaminggeek> ah I see
<DBO> and you have a 45ms render time when you need to be done in 5
<gaminggeek> ok found something
<DBO> do tell
<DBO> skype is going to work in a moment
<DBO> I can feel it
<gaminggeek> how do you get to the edge of the bar if you dont have a window that isnt in the dock open?
<DBO> ah yeah, I know, its a known design flaw
<gaminggeek> :)
<gaminggeek> could you have the end bits active too and have it scale the same way when you drag it out?
<gaminggeek> although that would be a little counter intuitive..
<DBO> not really
<DBO> thats asking a lot
<DBO> skype works now
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<DBO> 827
<DBO> lets see
<DBO> open office, yeah we might as well just special case that...
<gaminggeek> :)
<DBO> oh i should fix pidgin
<gaminggeek> yea that would be nice :)
<DBO> can you test for me
<DBO> rev 828
<gaminggeek> that was fast :)
<gaminggeek> what am I testing pidgin?
<DBO> ya
<gaminggeek> bzr is slow -_-
<gaminggeek> nope still not working with pidgine
<gaminggeek> er pidgin
<DBO> damn
<DBO> i wonder how the hell it is getting an icon in the first place...
<gaminggeek> good work with skype though :)
<DBO> guess i need to setup pidgin
<gaminggeek> although it looks a little odd
<gaminggeek> not fully scaled
<DBO> really?
<gaminggeek> yep
<gaminggeek> want a screenshot?
<DBO> yes please
<gaminggeek> www.axonstudio.com/files/Screenshot.png
<DBO> weird
<gaminggeek> same thing happens for the screenshot icon btw
<DBO> ahhh
<DBO> your dock is not fully sized
<DBO> mmm
<gaminggeek> yea
<DBO> so the scaling broke somehow
<gaminggeek> :/
<DBO> or gtk is screwing with me
<gaminggeek> we are getting some major bug finding and fixing done :)
<DBO> hmmm
<DBO> skype scales properly here
<gaminggeek> probably should remove that screenshot now..
<DBO> please
<DBO> oh i see
<DBO> I have an svg on my system
<gaminggeek> for skype?
<DBO> there we go
<DBO> yes
<gaminggeek> ah
<gaminggeek> updated?
<DBO> i found another poor scaler though
<DBO> working on it now
<gaminggeek> xsane too
<gaminggeek> it seems to be only if its not in the bar
<DBO> pidgin is going to be hard to fix
<gaminggeek> dont worry about it then
<gaminggeek> its just a little nice thing :)
<DBO> it should be the person you are chatting with that gets their picture to show up by the way
<gaminggeek> yea
<DBO> not actually that bad...
<DBO> there, that fixes scaling
<gaminggeek> sweet :D
<DBO> pushed
<DBO> also, you can drag folders and files onto the dock
<DBO> if you did not know
<gaminggeek> oh sweet :)
<DBO> seems to be broken
<DBO> lemme check that
<gaminggeek> but it doesnt have the icon of the file :)
<DBO> oh i see
<gaminggeek> be nice to have it so if you drag the file into an app it launched the app with the file as the argument
<DBO> it cant do spaces for some reason
<gaminggeek> so if you drag a media file into toem it launched
<DBO> yeah it would be nice, but alas much more difficult
<gaminggeek> :/
<DBO> V 2.0
<gaminggeek> ok :D
<gaminggeek> or -'s
<DBO> you are using v0.9
<gaminggeek> ah I see :)
<gaminggeek> its very slick :)
<gaminggeek> slicker than the mac os dock in many ways :)
<gaminggeek> how did you come up with the idea for it?
<DBO> for the most part other docks ticked me off with the need for a config UI
<gaminggeek> ah :)
<gaminggeek> what was the spark of insperation to use do?
<DBO> i am a core do developer already
<DBO> so it was more or less a duh moment
<gaminggeek> ah I see :)
<DBO> in a sense its not fair
<gaminggeek> ?
<DBO> I know Do has everything you need to make a great dock
<DBO> I just had to put it together
<gaminggeek> ah :D
<DBO> there we go
<DBO> now spaces work
<gaminggeek> ok
<gaminggeek> what about the no icons issue?
<DBO> you mean open office?
<gaminggeek> no in files
<DBO> well ultimately they get the icon that Do gives them
<DBO> so to give them better icons, we must improve Do's icons
<DBO> which is nice because I get a 2 for 1
<gaminggeek> ah sweet :D
<DBO> darnnit what was I fixing...
<DBO> oh right, centering previews
<DBO> there we are
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<DBO> if you drag an image onto the dock it does preview it
<gaminggeek> your fixing thease fast :D
<DBO> provided nautilus has already previewed it
<gaminggeek> does that already..
<DBO> yeah I know
<gaminggeek> ah I see this is a feature youre telling me about :)
<DBO> i was just saying
<gaminggeek> nifty :)
<DBO> can you find any other apps without icons?
<gaminggeek> wine apps just show the wine wine glass
<gaminggeek> rather than the app of the icon
<gaminggeek> but that is a very special case type of thing
<DBO> yeah
<DBO> not sure i can do much there
<gaminggeek> and the wine glass still works
<gaminggeek> fair enough
<DBO> so what do you think then?
<gaminggeek> very nice :D
<gaminggeek> only problem now is I wont be able to use it all the time because sometimes I need to use metacity :/
<DBO> what do you normally use?
<gaminggeek> compiz
<DBO> it works in compiz
<DBO> i am using compiz...
<DBO> oh wait
<gaminggeek> but sometimes metacity if I need to use blender or play games
<DBO> it works in metacity if you turn on the compositor
<DBO> which doesn't hurt game performance
<DBO> or blender performance
<gaminggeek> just tried it
<gaminggeek> that works :)
<DBO> ;)
<gaminggeek> I had forgotten about that :)
<DBO> =)
<DBO> personally i prefer xfwm
<DBO> but metacity works too
<DBO> of course latest xfwm is slow as balls
<DBO> so dont bother
<gaminggeek> ok :)
<gaminggeek> also I cant be bothered tweaking the appearance app to use xfwm :P
<DBO> yeah
<gaminggeek> do you use ubuntu?
<gaminggeek> ok found something
<DBO> whats it?
<DBO> i use ubuntu yeah
<gaminggeek> if you have a folder under the dock window
<gaminggeek> even if its noware near the doc but under that transparent bit
<gaminggeek> and you try to drag files into said folder they get added to the doc
<DBO> yeah that one is annoying
<gaminggeek> also if you open the appearance settings window it has a different name on the dock to the one on the window
<DBO> mine is the same
<DBO> its an icon theme thing then
<gaminggeek> oh?
<DBO> some icon themes have different icons depending on the size
<gaminggeek> no not that
<gaminggeek> http://www.axonstudio.com/files/Screenshot.png
<gaminggeek> and that drag and drop bug is REALLY annoying :)
<DBO> the screenshot is expected
<DBO> the drag and drop bug is uhhh... interesting to try to fix
<DBO> its a 1.0 must fix
<DBO> i just dont know how yet
<gaminggeek> :/
<DBO> well i have a plan
<DBO> work comes to work, i will add a second window just for this purpose
<DBO> you wont see it, as it will be transparent, but it will be useful
<gaminggeek> ok
<gaminggeek> as long as you fix the bug :)
<gaminggeek> does awn have the problem?
<DBO> awn does
<DBO> erm
<DBO> i forget actually
<DBO> one of the docks out there does
<gaminggeek> ok
<gaminggeek> well I really need to sleep
<gaminggeek> its almost 2 am here :)
<gaminggeek> and it would be nice if you could right click on the trash and it have an empty trash option
<gaminggeek> and if you add something to the dock using that add button it doesnt put it in alphabetical order
<DBO> a plugin for Do could do it =)
<DBO> actually it puts it on the right of the "Statistical items"
<gaminggeek> ahh ok :)
<gaminggeek> it would be nice to have the trash seperate but you can live with out it being seperate..
<gaminggeek> anyway I'm out see you soon :)
<DBO> later
<troy_s> Ho ho ho.
<knome> http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/strip.aspx?id=62598d8c-c878-4f2b-b261-467004330cf9
<knome> \o/
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-25
<gaminggeek> DBO: are the plugins from 6.0 compatable with your dock?
<DBO> gaminggeek, no
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-26
<troy_s> Best of the season to everyone.  kwwii, _MMA_, luisbg, nothlit`core, (thorwil), and anyone else in here that I have had the pleasure of being an acquaintance of.
<luisbg> troy_s, ")
<knome> troy_s, pong
<SealV> anyone on? if so wallpaper critique? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/jjwall3min.png
<SealV> supposed to be minimal
<knome> mmh.
<knome> ok if the wabbit doesn't interfere with panel
<knome> which i'm a bit worried, becuase it's quite low
<knome> / near the bottom
<SealV> ah! the bottom panel- one of the first things I get rid of. hmm
<savvas> they'll probably move it a bit towards the center of the image
<savvas> make it animated hehehe
<SealV> lol
<knome> i would REALLY appreciate a few droppings.
<knome> you know, like 2-3
<knome> not circle or oval, but a bit irregular
<SealV> lol tell me where to up the basic svg, and its all yours
<SealV> the bottom panel is covering a sliver of the foot
<knome> ;)
<knome> 10px up maybe
<SealV> good plan
<knome> or just shift+up
<knome> ;)
<SealV> I wish I had the skills to make something like this:  http://customize.org/wallpapers/60201/download?version=61156&resolution=1280x800
<knome> just play around with inkscape...
<SealV> oh I do, to the point where I detest having to deal with actual pixels
<knome> heheh
 * _MMA_ waves
 * thorwil scans a jackalope
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/th_rect2383.png
<SealV> critique for minimal wall?
<thorwil> too small to say anything
<SealV> wrong link
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/rect2383.png
<knome> where are the droppings?
<thorwil> i think what knome is trying to say is that the pose is a bit unfortunate ;)
<SealV> T_T I will add them just for the Knome version
<knome> \o/
<thorwil> SealV: line work on head is rather good, but it looks evil
<SealV> hah yes, all jackrabbits look evil. but good points both
<SealV> what kind of pose are you guys thinking of?
<thorwil> sitting, running or ready to jump ... there are many fine options
<knome> maybe draw the other foot on the back
<knome> ready to jump / attack
<SealV> jaunty means up to date. ius jumping better than sitting?
<thorwil> grmpf, picdrop has too much load
<thorwil> kwwii: http://xs134.xs.to/xs134/08525/jackalope_sketch_16to9249.jpg
<thorwil> kwwii: source is on my repo https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/ubuntu-artwork/thorwils_backgrounds
<thorwil> good night
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-27
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/r2.png
<SealV> different pose. too tired to work on a wallpaper for it
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/r3.png
<SealV> not quite finished with r3 yet.
<gaminggeek> SealV: that is very cute :)
<DBO> gaminggeek, you here?
<gaminggeek> indeed
<gaminggeek> whats up DBO?
<DBO> i think i have open office icons working now =)
<gaminggeek> Cool
<DBO> and the drag thing is fixed too
<DBO> that one sucked
<gaminggeek> the network manager properties window doesnt work :)
<gaminggeek> yay
<DBO> sweet
<gaminggeek> oh and I dont know if I like the new glowing dots
<DBO> yeah they are a trial
<DBO> the old code still exists
<gaminggeek> and if you have the network icon in your dock it thinks that any nautilus window is the network window
<gaminggeek> if that makes any sense
<DBO> network window?
<gaminggeek> yea like network places on windows
<DBO> oh yeah
<DBO> fixing that one is rough
<gaminggeek> :/
<gaminggeek> sweet the trash is there by default now :D
<gaminggeek> can you drag things into it yet?
<gaminggeek> I like the new Urgent stuff :D
<gaminggeek> dragging seems to just be broken all togeather for me
<gaminggeek> unfortunatly you cant seem to drag files into the transparent bit and have it go to nautilus yet
<DBO> gaminggeek, really?
<DBO> i'll work on it more
<DBO> but it works right here
<DBO> restart do and try again?
<DBO> it does get into "bad states" sometimes
<DBO> and I have yet to figure out why
<gaminggeek> nope
<gaminggeek> cant movie files past it
<gaminggeek> and you need to be able to right click on the trash :)
<DBO> move files past it?
<DBO> yeah i know...
<gaminggeek> past the dead zone
<DBO> what window manager are you using?
<gaminggeek> compiz atm
<DBO> i wonder if compiz is preventing the window from repositioning itself
<DBO> gaminggeek, are you able to move a window such that the bottom of it hangs off the bottom of the screen?
<gaminggeek> yes
<gaminggeek> I dont mean windows
<DBO> weird
<gaminggeek> I mean the files in nautilus
<DBO> i know
<gaminggeek> or are they all windows in the grand scheme of things?
<DBO> oh wait
<DBO> do you have autohide on?
<gaminggeek> nope
<DBO> that explains it
<DBO> the issue is only fixed with autohide
<DBO> since i can completely eliminate the window
<gaminggeek> ahh ok :)
<DBO> i am working on a partial fix for the other...
<gaminggeek> I guess I will have auto hide on for the moment then :)
<gaminggeek> I cant wait till the intell driver and redirect 3d windows for compositing :)
<gaminggeek> 'cause even when metacity has compositing on 3d windows dont render properly
<gaminggeek> might be a good idea to disable auto hide when your scaling the doc
<gaminggeek> k
<gaminggeek> hmm when you have the dock auto hide because you remove the window when you get an urgent window you dont see the window come up
<gaminggeek> and I dont think its a good idea to be able to scale the dock so it goes off the side of the screen
<DBO> gaminggeek, this points I agree with
<DBO> i will strive to fix them
<gaminggeek> cool :)
<thorwil> good morning!
<gaminggeek> Hello thorwil
<thorwil> kwwii: ping
<SealV> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/Miffan4color.jpg
<SealV> an update with color[mostly done]
<thorwil> SealV: that's a damn nice drawing
<thorwil> SealV: make sure kwwii sees it (who isn't really here today, apparently)
<thorwil> SealV: but how would you turn that into a background?
<SealV> the white is just a layer
<SealV> the whole thing is an xcf
<thorwil> a chance to sneak in some green ;)
<SealV> shh: they might find out
<thorwil> good night!
<knome> SealV, \o/
<knome> SealV, but really, where are the droppings?
<SealV> Hidden layer
<knome> k good
<SealV> especially for you
<knome> \o/
<SealV> yay thinkfinger works! good night all
<knome> night
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-21
<thorwil> http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/the_best_and_worst_identities_of_2009.php
<mac_v> Equiet: hi.. pinged mpt regarding your mockups... he said he'll follow up :)
<Equiet> mac_v: Thank you. What exactly means follow up?
<mac_v> Equiet: comment about it or request changes ...
<Equiet> Have you tried Gnome Shell?
<mac_v> yup...
<Equiet> And what do you think?
<mac_v> as of now , i would say isnt very ideal
<thorwil> sadly dropping the concept is not seen as an option
<Equiet> Why to drop it?
<thorwil> Equiet: since it is not clearly better, it should be tested with actual users to see how they fare (in comparison with the current setup).
<thorwil> Equiet: if it doesn't show to be clearly better, it should be dropped
<thorwil> Equiet: however, my worry is that that option will not be considered
<Equiet> I agree, that it's not very intuitive, so it shouldn't be enabled by default, but I like it. With a good shortcut and little changes it could be nice work.
<thorwil> Equiet: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2009-December/msg00124.html
<Equiet> At least, it is something, that is not stolen from other OSs.
<thorwil> Equiet: "intuitive" is a highly problematic term, anyway. what is and isn't intuitive depends on past experience, making it somewhat subjective. some claim: "the only intuitive interface is the nipple", but not even that is entirely accurate, as even there learning is involved
<thorwil> "unique" does not trump "good"
<Equiet> But it's still better than Vista glossy buttons and OS X's Application menu in top bar.
<Equiet> User has to find out, that for running apps he needs to click Activities, so it's not intuitive for me.
<thorwil> Equiet: better by what measure?
<Equiet> Well, you're right. Better is another problematic term.
<Equiet> Brb.
<mac_v> lmao > http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Called-Racist-HP-Says-Thanks-for-the-Feedback-79822477.html
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-22
<ckontros> mac_v: You around?
<thorwil> ckontros: in any case, i'm just around enough to say hi!
<ckontros> thorwil: That's always welcome. :)
<KolorGuild> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-23
<tgpraveen> could some one take a look at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596601
<ubottu> Gnome bug 596601 in general "Increase size of volume icon in fullscreen mode" [Normal,Needinfo]
<tgpraveen> mac_v: ^^?
<darkmatter> yes, please. give us all huge bloated icons that draw our attention to the panel when it needs to be elsewhere :)
<tgpraveen> darkmatter: that bug is not about  the panel. and with other themes it looks ok. not bloated
<darkmatter> ahh... so stretching the icon to the size of the panel is a 'good' thing.. gotcha.
<mac_v> tgpraveen: dont know...
<mac_v> tgpraveen: i dont see how it is a theme problem either... its a 16px icon
<tgpraveen> try with clearlooks theme
<tgpraveen> it looks ok.
<mac_v> tgpraveen: so its a gtk theme problem?
<darkmatter> thats probably a hack in clearlooks to compensate for the crappy code revisions in na-tray
<darkmatter> because the notification area is crap now
<mac_v> tgpraveen: bleh... dump totem and use vlc ;)
<tgpraveen> mac_v: I use vlc too as a backup. but still gotta love GNOMEish simplicity
<mac_v> tgpraveen: hmm , odd... totem uses the larger icons when using gnome theme but for humanity it uses the 16px icon :/
<darkmatter> mac_v: and it *is* a tray issue regardless of dev excuses. there are plenty of apps that you can use to prove it. including some of the default gnome tray-huggers. I know, because I intentionally look for interface issues. and 3 icons taking up 100pixels of panel real estate on a 32 pixel panel *is* a gnome problem. not a theme problem
<darkmatter> as long as the index.theme has the directories/sizes defined and the symlinks in place it is not a theme issue
<_vish> darkmatter: we have all that right ... but totem is crazy :p
<darkmatter> yes. yes it is
<darkmatter> _vish: even more crazy is having to symlink app pixmaps for the tray because they pack sane sizes, but if you're 'in between' na-tray upscales to the next pixel size. have you ever seen an unscaled 48x78 icon on a 32 pixel panel? it ain't pretty :P
<darkmatter> 48x48*
<_vish> hehe...
<_vish> darkmatter: well now that canonical is trying to fix the tray , it uses only 16px icons so i guess that it is kinda solved ;)
<darkmatter> it's a gnome issue. I can reproduce it in the gnome theme by pulling out the 32x32 status icons and rebuilding the cache. scale 'down' my lovelies
<_vish> but it will *only* use 16px , so if the panel is larger too it will only be 16px icons ;)
<darkmatter> _vish: ahhh.. my long standing dream that I've bitched about endlessly is coming topass?
<_vish> darkmatter: http://gould.cx/ted/blog/Having_a_tidy_systray
<darkmatter> _vish: yes. it should be 16x16. no scaling up to fit the panel (I dun think anyone uses 120pix panels anymore. do they? ;o). that and please. 6 pix padding between them. split as clickable area between adjacent icons
<darkmatter> becaus e otherwise the icons are crammed, and wasting usable space is sinful
<_vish> darkmatter: yeah , actually in humanity all the tray icons are actually only 16px icons in 22/24px  ... all the padding is what make it more clean ;)
<tgpraveen> darkmatter: then can you please reopen that bug with the relevant commetns as you seem to be better informed on this issue
<darkmatter> :O padding! I guess canonical isn't as daft as I had thought :P
<_vish> darkmatter: ssshh... not many know we cheated on those icons... ;)
<_vish> darkmatter: but good that canonical is actually fixing the notifcation area
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> _vish: agreed
<darkmatter> _vish: I hack the crap out of icons and .desktop files to make a reasonable impression. it's a pain in the butt. all for a consistent freakin tray. it'll be nice to be able to avoid such evils in the future
<darkmatter> because any patch that feeds my laziness I'M TAKING AND YOU CANT STOP ME! xD
<_vish> darkmatter: yeah , by Lucid +1 off with notification area :D > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators
<darkmatter> yay! I'm stealing them for my geeko! \o/
<nigel_nb> hi, any of the artwork team around? I'm looking for some help :)
<nigel_nb> after the UDS-L, there is a plan to have Ubuntu User Days with topics aimed towards users (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam).  Can anyone from the artwork team help us with a logo?
<thorwil> hi nigel_nb
<nigel_nb> hi thorwil :)
<thorwil> nigel_nb: these last days of the year are likely not a good time to ask for something like that
<nigel_nb> thorwil: ohhh
<thorwil> nigel_nb: but now or later, i suggest you bring it up on the art mailing list
<nigel_nb> thorwil: will do, thanks :)
<thorwil> you can reach many more people that way
<thorwil> nigel_nb: np
<nigel_nb> do I need to join before I post?
<thorwil> nigel_nb: i think yes. you should for questions, anyway
<thorwil> nigel_nb: the list is rather low volume
<nigel_nb> joined already, a few 100 mails a day dont make much difference anyway
<nigel_nb> after bug squad, I'm game for anything
<nigel_nb> ;)
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> ouch ouch!  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UbuntuFreeCultureShowcaseLogo_white_100.png
<kwwii> ouch indeed
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-24
<darkmatter> coz_: I have made a decent notification area on a 32 pixel panel http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4842/screenshotet.png ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy  ...sorry  I  just woke up .... been battling a bloody nose
<darkmatter> coz_: thats ok an: that sucks. I hate bloody noses
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh man this was my first bloddy nose ever.. it just wouldnt stop
<darkmatter> :/
<Equiet> Nice Christmas discussion topic. :)
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> coz_: the customization of the icons is coming along nicely, but the status directories will be huge. basically anything that lives in the tray (gnome power manager, xrandr, etc) needs custom status in the theme. I'm also doing custom themes for filezilla and the like, mainly out of concern for consistent tray na-tray icons
<coz_> darkmatter,   very very cool :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  lately all I have done is another theme for cairo-dock
<darkmatter> coz_: 16x16 icons, 6-8 pix of padding (because they need additional size coverage for some at 22 and 24)
<darkmatter> coz_: well.. I'm almost done with the rebuild of the sonar gtk. then I attack gilouche with a fierce rewrite :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool... of course  I want to try it :)
<coz_> soneone needs to create a front end gui theme creator  ... :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I actual discussed that a few weeks ago. I have a rather elaborate idea of how it could/should work. and basically it should be ide like
<darkmatter> it should actually build the theme for you. store revisions (including pixmaps) with a diff-;ike approach, etc
<coz_> darkmatter,  that would be nice ... many people have asked ... including myself... for a nice gtk theme creator.... most people dont like dealing with the gtkrc
<darkmatter> aye
<darkmatter> coz_: lol.. like me. I'm one of these 'masters' (at least they keep telling me that) but I freaking LOATH gtk :P
<coz_> :)
<Equiet> Is something like this in brainstorm?
<coz_> Equiet,  mm  I havent checked
<darkmatter> coz_: like the work I've done thus far on sonar (I'll be starting the pixmapping later). by any standard it should be 5ish minutes of work. but because you have to manually edit a 1000+ line gtkrc it takes forever
<coz_> darkmatter,  that is the reason I have not tackled anything recently.... I rely on you so far :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have had many ask about this but  unfortunately not much is out there
<coz_> darkmatter,  when beryl introduced Emerald theme manager.... may people questioned why there wasnt something similiar for gtk.... I dont blame them.... a theme  editor ...in my opinion ..is long overdue
<darkmatter> coz_: but anyway. I'll be porting gilouche from clearlooks to murrine ar part of its rebirth. both gilouche and sonar will have fully pixmapped panels as well
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed
<darkmatter> coz_: I always liked gilouche snce it was introduced in sle 10, but gah... clearlooks is my most hated adversary ;D
<darkmatter> and the easiest way to give a modern look/feel is a hybrid theme. lets me avoid a 4mb gtkrc for the pixbuf engine :P
<darkmatter> so murrine and picbuf where required
<coz_> darkmatter, gilouche always attracted me as well
<darkmatter> I'm attempting to keep pixmap usage down to tranparent images as much as possible to retain recolorable theming
<darkmatter> sonar is the exception, since many elements are black regardless of coloration, I can skip the transparencies
<darkmatter> coz_: I'll be basing the panel for gilouche loosely on the oldish revision I had done http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/2094407785/sizes/o/in/set-72157603406043713/ but a bit more 'modern'
<darkmatter> since jimmac already loves the previous work :D
<coz_> darkmatter,  oooo so clean :)
<Equiet> Wow, very nice.
<darkmatter> coz_: jimmac was browsing my flickr and saw the old WIP on gilouche. nothing feels better than having on of the big-wigs of gnomes art paying you a compliment xD
<coz_> darkmatter,  for sure :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  well that last image... shows off the subtleness of your ideas.... it is quite beautiful
<darkmatter> coz_: ty
<coz_> darkmatter, you know that I love dark themes as well.... but the same holds true for light or dark... too often the work required for subtle nuances in color and line seem to be lacking   as well as a solid colour sense  that many seem to ignore... but I have always trusted all of that in your stuff
<coz_> mmm did that sound too  "groupie" like ?? lol
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I've played around with various style, but I've always leaned towards clean/subtle with more realistic shadows/lighting and a distinct lack of glass. it just feels 'right' imho. there's too much 'web 2.0y-ness' and 'zomg! mac!!!' in theming these days
<darkmatter> pretty much everything you see is exceptionally plain or grossly overdone to the point of being insulting
<darkmatter> there are exceptions that are tastefully done. but they are definitely not the norm
<coz_> darkmatter,  I agree....most seem rushed or  "finalized" with the concept.... too often the wrong values   ...clashing colours.... bad font colors especially seem to pop up far too often
<darkmatter> aye
<coz_> darkmatter,  this tells me there is much desire to contribute to the pool of themes already out there... but that, also,  there are many who just dont get  what  refinement means
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have seen some themes that I cannot reasonably understand what the hell they were thinking  when they came up with the idea!
<coz_> :)
<coz_> ^^  that goes   well beyond  "too each their own"  or  "subjective"
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed. everyone wants to contribute in some way (not just art), but most lack skill and/or taste. sadly it is a universal golden rule ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I agree... I will never understand our species  lol
<darkmatter> coz_: and it's not limited to foss. take a look at vistas default theme. the thing was an atrocity. &'s is a sizable improvement, but is still 'shoddy' im a lot of ways
<darkmatter> like, too much contrast/boldness in certain elements that doesn't fit with the overall fell
<darkmatter> etc
<darkmatter> 7's*
<coz_> darkmatter,   understood :)
<coz_> ok I have to break here.... I have not slept in 2 days and its already christmas eve.... I might be back later though... I just need to rest abit :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-12-26
<darkmatter> grrr... I hate gtk more than ever
<itsbrad212> hey
<itsbrad212> :D
<itsbrad212> anybody here?
<thorwil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24681250@N07/4208717468/in/set-72157623056086416/
<raozuzu> thorwil: nice! :D
<cb2k> Hello Kenneth I have just signed up and now I'm testing x-chat...
<cb2k> Could you possibly confirm if you are receiving this message please...
<cb2k> I guess you must be enjoying the holidays anyway seasons greetings will try to contact you again sometime soon.
<thorwil> hi cb2k. Kenneth goes by the nick kwwii here
<thorwil> cb2k: and he will see lines with his nick in them highlighted (red)
<cb2k> Thank you and glad to hear from you.
<thorwil> cb2k: np. since it sounds like you're new to irc, let me add that this medium allows close-to-synchronous communication, but it is not uncommon that several minutes or even hours pass before a response
<cb2k> Thanks for the info and yes you assumed correctly first time on Irc, I guess I should just leave it open then...
<thorwil> cb2k: some of us leave an irc window open all day / as long as the system is on. hardcore users even use remote sessions for 24/7 loging :)
<thorwil> this is a small and often rather quiet channel, of course
<cb2k> It seems very useful to have an open communication I've just been going through the registration procedures - remote sessions ? sounds like I have some swatting up to do
<cb2k> thorwil: I assume you have been involved with the ubuntu-art for sometime then?
<thorwil> cb2k: you need a server for that (in the sense of an always-on system, at least). usually involves irssi and gnu screen. but one should not worry about things happening while one is not directly present. you need time to read the logs and i wonder who has it?
<cb2k> Thorwil: got it I guess I can leave it open during my waking hours and catch up relay style via the lists then...
<thorwil> cb2k: since before hardy at least, i think
<thorwil> cb2k: a channel like this one shines if you work directly with someone else here on a project
<cb2k> Nice to  hear - I like the the direction it has taken....  ah I saw the flash when you responded.
<thorwil> cb2k: sometimes also for open discussions and having a little fun
<cb2k> Thorwil: it's going to take me some getting used to...
<thorwil> cb2k: but announcements, calls for help/collaboration, refining plans ... are often better off on the mailing list
<thorwil> cb2k: yes, i recall it did in my case :)
<cb2k> Thorwil: Understood mailing list.
 * thorwil got dragged into irc from jabber sessions with 2 developers
<cb2k> Thorwil: will catch up some other time when suitable thanks for your help :)
<thorwil> cb2k: ok, np, cya :)
<cjohnston> I know everyone is probably busy with the holidays and such, but does anyone have a few minutes to teach me how to edit a .svg file in inkscape?
<thorwil> cjohnston: if you can be more specific than that / break it down, perhaps
<cjohnston> thorwil: I'm trying to edit the text of the business cards provided by Ubuntu... for members.. but I have no idea how.. It's a .svg file
<raozuzu> what about using Inkscape?
<thorwil> cjohnston: do you have the file up somewhere?
<cjohnston> thorwil: that you could look at?
<thorwil> yes
<cjohnston> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu_card.tar.gz
<thorwil> heh, the about.rdf is a joke
<thorwil> cjohnston: the letters of the name are vectors, not editable text
<thorwil> not clever
<cjohnston> umm.. Ok..
<cjohnston> So it's not gonna be easy for me to edit them then..
<ryanprior> well, not necessarily hard either :-)
<ryanprior> vectors are flexible
<thorwil> anyone got an idea what font that is?
 * cjohnston isnt good with artsy type stuff at all.. We actually need some artwork made for Ubuntu User Days too.. but I guess someone was told to wait until after the new year for that
<thorwil> cjohnston: if you open the file in inkscape, you only need Object -> Ungroup to make the contents editable
<thorwil> cjohnston: you could then replace the vector name with a custom one as actual text
<thorwil> i can't find a matching type quickly and won't invest more time
<cjohnston> Ok.. Thanks for your time
<thorwil> cjohnston: if you hand out an svg for printing, it is a good idea to convert all text to vectors. but as you not if you pass files on for editing
<thorwil> cjohnston: maybe you can make some noise about this issue so it might be solved once and for all?
<cjohnston> thorwil: no matter what changes are made, I'd still have to learn how to edit the file... so I don't know that it's really that big of a deal.. I would imagine if it was, others would have complained already
<thorwil> cjohnston: if it was done right, changing the text would be about as difficult as changing any text in a word processor
<cjohnston> I gotcha..
<thorwil> cjohnston: compared to now, where you have to insert new text with the right font in the right place and delete the old one
<cjohnston> Any idea who to "make noise" to?
<thorwil> cjohnston: this is connected to the whole membership business? is there a general list for that? dholbach or jono, perhaps?
<cjohnston> ok.. thansk
<cjohnston> thanks
<thorwil> this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards
<thorwil> clearly should offer one option and one only
<thorwil> cjohnston: in any case, i'll post to our list. maybe we can replace the mess without stepping on someones toes
<cjohnston> Thanks thorwil.. That would be great!
<ryanprior> thorwil: can you think of any reason to hand out an svg for printing instead of a pdf?
<thorwil> ryanprior: now that you say that, to suggest people export to pdf is likely better than telling them to turn text to vectors
<thorwil> ryanprior: otherwise, a reason could be a print shop that happens to use inkscape ... not likely
<thorwil> with transparent gradients, PDF export might go wrong, though
<ryanprior> is that a bug in PDF, or in the export function?
<darkmatter> it's more a matter of inkscape doing things assbackwards.
<thorwil> well, svg and pdf do not speak the same language when it comes to transparency and a number of effects
<\vish> argh! the card was done on OSX :/
<thorwil> \vish: like most ubuntu design? ^^
<darkmatter> thorwil: bah. it about the quality of the software involved. not the languages they speak. for instance. acrobat handles pdf's from inkscap just fine. ocular, evince etc choke and die
<\vish> lol
<darkmatter> and there in lies the problem. 90% of GPL software is of low quality ;p
<\vish> atleast when they packaged it they could have removed the redundant ._* files ;)
<thorwil> darkmatter: i'm pretty sure there is an issue with expressing transparencies because SVG and PDF have different concepts. and effects like blur have to be realized with bitmaps, i guess
<darkmatter> \vish: lol. but the __MACOSX file thingy proves they're 1337 and like snakeoil ;D
<\vish> ;)
<thorwil> darkmatter: it just hasn't the same grace and impact to it if you talk bad about gpl software. Troy does it better ^^
<\vish> thorwil: i guess its the years of practice troy has had ;p ... darkmatter just keep at it :D
<darkmatter> thorwil: yes. but like I said. 'quality of the software' although there are always  'transliteration issues' it's really not that big of an issue. acrobat for example handles transparencies and embedded bitmaps well enough last time I tried
<darkmatter> thorwil: its because I'm a real man (unlike troy'. I don't beat around the bush and honey-coat things when simple honesty should suffice ;P
<thorwil> darkmatter: too bad. i was actually happy to get rid of acrobat, but i guess i should better use it if i ever have a print job
<thorwil> lol
<darkmatter> yeah. acrobat is big and nasty (I loath it as well). but its the only craptastic pdf-er-er-er-er I've found that handles the exports from inkscape efficiently
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-27
<tvbuntu> hello,I want to use a .png file for nautilus status bar and I couldn't find how
<tvbuntu> in gtkrc of the theme i want to modify is specified only the resize grip
<tvbuntu> nothing about the status bar
<tvbuntu> well,can I get some help from you?
<tvbuntu> ?
<tvbuntu> I thought people on these channels want to help the others
<tvbuntu> ?
<tvbuntu> ?
<tvbuntu> ?
<cozziemoto> .whois tvbuntu
<coz_> good day all
<undurundur> too..
<coz_> ok I have to break here....be back in a bit
<thorwil> some activity on http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=205084
<evilvish> thorwil: it would be nice if you sent that activity is going on there, to the list too charlie would be happy.. :)
<thorwil> evilvish: hmm, i think i wait with that, until there's a bit more to see
<evilvish> haha! i just figured out what your avatar meant ;p
<evilvish> on the blender form..
<evilvish> thorwil: cool.. :)
<thorwil> heh
<evilvish> lol!! http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=205083&p=1761935&viewfull=1#post1761935
<evilvish> they must have thought you were spamming!!
<evilvish> BUT NO , EDubuntu and Xubuntu are different ;p
<thorwil> evilvish: i was really amazed of the sherlock holmes like ability. no wait, i meant captain obvious!
<thorwil> that's the level of work i'm hoping for: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=203997
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-28
 * daker is away: OccupÃ©
<thorwil> http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/the_best_and_worst_identities_of_2010_part_ii_the_best.php
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-29
<coz_> hey guys... is there a site with all of the new ubuntu icons...logos... like unity logo...
<coz_> good day all
<kwwii> evening
<thorwil> good evening, kwwii
<kwwii> hey thorwil, wie war weihniachten?
<kwwii> weihnachten
<thorwil> kwwii: nice and relaxed. made 3 female close relative quite happy with a little origami :)
<thorwil> kwwii: how was yours?
<kwwii> thorwil: very nice, my wife'S sister stayed at our place for 3 days..family, good food and a bit of fun, nothing better
<kwwii> thorwil: sledding and such with the kids, board games, and such
<kwwii> I have to work tomorrow :-( Off on friday though
<thorwil> i've built a snow ramp in our (rather flat) garden. and then found out the very old sled had rusty skids(?), making them slide as good as sand paper :}
<thorwil> but the comparison led to the solution :)
<kwwii> hehe, cool
<kwwii> luckily, the south has lots of mountains, even if they are small
<kwwii> great for sledding
<kwwii> .5km from my house
<kwwii> several snow boarders and lots of
<kwwii> people with sleds
<thorwil> cool
<kwwii> the pure amount of powder snow made it amazing
<kwwii> I went down a very large steep incline without realizing it had a large ramp at the bottom :p
<kwwii> my ass still hurts
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> ha! at last my script that takes a desktop screenshot with transparent background and takes it apart to generate version of it with various resolutions works!
<kwwii> sometime soon I will post my first stuff for my new icon theme...not sure exactly what yet but I plan to start it in the new year
<kwwii> hehe, I know that feeling
<kwwii> cool stuff
<kwwii> every time we had to take a screen of gdm it was different
<kwwii> and hard
<thorwil> i ordered "art of community" and "land of lisp"
<kwwii> lol, why lisp?
<thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
<thorwil> kwwii: because it's a conceptually beautiful language. besides functional programming, where there are several other candidates, i'm interested in macros
<kwwii> hehe, nice video
<kwwii> I did some lisp in my days at suse
<kwwii> amazing fskced up stuff
<thorwil> good night! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-30
<thorwil> http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/
<thorwil> http://www.robertartwriter.com/WebGallery_01.html
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-12-31
<stjohnmedrano> Happy New Year Linux Users!
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-01
<thorwil> happy new year!
<coz_> good day all
<coz_> hey guys   is canonical back from vacation yet?
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-02
<venilsurya> Does anyone know a good tutorial that explains how to fix newspaper images? I have a scanned newspaper page from 1969 which I have to clean up
<thorwil> -_-
 * vish wonders what's up with thorwil  ;)
<thorwil> vish: reading such not even half though-through stuff makes me suffer pain and this time i decided to provide some feedback
<thorwil> vish: most likely i go back to deleting entire threads and everything from specific senders
<vish> thorwil: ha!
<thorwil> vish:  or were you referring to  -_- ?
<vish> thorwil: yea. :)
<thorwil> dang
<thorwil> vish: is silvester celebrated with fireworks where you live, too?
<vish> silvester??   (i guess that explains it all :)  )
<kwwii> hey kids, happy new year
<vish> ah! the new yr..!
<vish> kwwii: hey..
<vish> thorwil: yea.. but more on the dot or around that time..
<thorwil> yeah, happy new year!
<kwwii> hi vish, thorwil
<thorwil> "Resizing windows by grabbing window borders is difficult" is the most awesome bug thread, ever *rolls-eyes*
<kwwii> thorwil: no doubt
<vish> hehe.. there is just that one comment that the bug waiting for.. else we would have fixed that long ago ;p
<vish> i seriously wonder why people keep resizing windows.. why does the content not really fit the window? why is the window smaller/larger..
<vish> resizing at rare intervals makes sense, but some people mention that they need to resize a *lot*..
<thorwil> apparently window managers don't do a good enough job
<kwwii> well, it really cannot be called a window manager as much as a windowing system
<vish> maybe it is actually the app's fault..
<kwwii> it doesn't really manage much :p
<vish> lol!
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-01-01
<hawks008> hi
