#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-08-27
<dpm-summit> hello!!!!
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<dpm> #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2
<mojo706> thought there would be something
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | AppDev Roundtable - Tue | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21925/appdev-roundtable-tue/
<mojo706> yes we are about to begin
<mhall119> plenary is running over, we'll start when it's done
<mojo706> ok
<mhall119> dpm: I'm gonna refill me coffee, be one minute
<dpm> mhall119, ok
<dpm> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a13b678e9eb752a276b37b19c90297e984fbf16a
<dpm> if anyone wants to join live on the session
<mojo706> mhall119, how does this work? how do I say contribute?
<mojo706> no place to listen in?
<dpm> mojo706, http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21925/appdev-roundtable-tue/
<marrabld_> The video on the webpage here http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21925/appdev-roundtable-tue/ has disappeared for me.  Is this just because it is updating?
<marrabld_> I ask becuase I am also getting a permission error on the page
<GuidoPallemans> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-roundtable ?
<popey> marrabld_: permission error is probably for the etherpad, click the "notes in a separate window" link at the bottom
<katie> hi, is anyone else having difficulty viewing the hangout?
<popey> dpm: is the video live?
<mojo706> yeah
<marrabld_> Authorization is required to access http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-roundtable
<marrabld_> Either you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again.
<marrabld_> You are currently logged in as https://login.ubuntu.com/+id/bbTy8DK. (logout)
<karni> Has the session started yet? Can't see embedded yt on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21925/appdev-roundtable-tue/
<mhall119> marrabld_: try logging in directly to http://pad.ubuntu.com
<mhall119> karni: we're checking
<karni> mhall119: tnx
<dpm> http://youtu.be/1YEKPpkONc8
<marrabld_> mhall119: Same error there
<mhall119> everybody refresh to get the video
<karni> dpm: tnx. stream working from uds site now
<popey> yay video
<marrabld_> I can see the video now.
<mojo706> installed missing plugin
<baggy> i still can't see the video
<katie> dpm, yes, you're back
<katie> :)
<mojo706> now I am here to bad I cannot speak bandwidth issues
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/showdown/
<mojo706> yes
<jasonamyers> I've been using it
<jasonamyers> to develop a campfire application
<jasonamyers> But I've been a bit lost on how to move beyond the simple tutorial
<swordfish> Sorry for the delay... I'm the guy behind the netwalk clone...
<marrabld_> I have been, but I have just been working through tutorials trying to learn QML
<karni> sry, got caught up in stand-up
<GuidoPallemans> jasonamyers: you should join the hangout
<jasonamyers> at work :(
<CheeseBurg> Am I late?
<mojo706> I actually have a semi-complete html5 app on the desktop at home
<GuidoPallemans> mojo you're on the hangout right?
<mhall119> CheeseBurg: only a little :)
<karni> mojo706: What kind of HTML5 app? Is it Cordova app?
<CheeseBurg> Just came from the keynote
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a13b678e9eb752a276b37b19c90297e984fbf16a
<CheeseBurg> What will the email app be based on?
<marrabld_> Is there unit testing built in to the SDK?
<jasonamyers> my current biggest issue is determining the proper way to consume an API
<jasonamyers> that has a streaming component :( So I believe i need a C++ piece
<mojo706> karni, mine
<jasonamyers> but it's a tad confusing
<marrabld_> +1 more tutorials
<jasonamyers> yes +1 more tutorials and screen layout especially!
<karni> mojo706: I assume "mine" mean's it's not an Ubuntu cordova app ;)
<mhall119> jasonamyers: regular layout or convergence layouts?
<popey> maybe we should be running a documentation sprint ?
<jasonamyers> I believe convergence
<mojo706> no its not actually I am trying to port it from FirefoxOS
<popey> or perhaps reward people who write documentation rather than just reward people who write code
<karni> Rather more tutorials, I think pointing to more documentation would be step forward.
<CheeseBurg> QUESTION: What will the email app be based on and will it replace thunderbird on the desktop with the desktop session is completed?
<jasonamyers> the ones using columns row etc
<mhall119> jasonamyers: there's actually some very good documentation for that on http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/ubuntu-layouts.html
<mhall119> jasonamyers: on columns and rows, yeah, there's some upstream docs but
<mojo706> I prefer the docs
<jasonamyers> mhall119, bookmarked
<popey> CheeseBurg: Not known yet. We're currently in early planning, but have identified at least one backend - trojita - which may be appropriate.
<mhall119> CheeseBurg: Trojita
<swordfish> A question: from what I understood there will be no way to use external dependencies in click packages... Is that true?
<karni> QUESTION: They're not available yet online, are they? (The HTML5 cookbook)
<GuidoPallemans> karni yes, i just googled ubuntu cookbook and found it
<popey> swordfish: you can bundle inside a click package
<mhall119> karni: http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/cookbook/html-5/
<mhall119> like I said, sparse
<swordfish> I wanted to develop a image filter application for the contest, but the problem was using some libraries for external image processing...
<popey> swordfish: bundle them in
<karni> mhall119: right. air thin sparse, looking forward to it :)
<rschroll_> It was just intimated to me that apps won't have access to the file system.  Is this correct?  Will there be any way to access local files?
<rschroll_> (Can't watch the video right now; will check it out this evening.)
<mhall119> rschroll_: yes and no
<Krispy> quick question and I figured this was the best channel out of all available...what is the status of the email app for Ubuntu Touch...it is the one thing that is preventing me from having it permanently on my phone
<mhall119> rschroll_: apps will have access to a folder of their own, and can request extended permissions to access more
<CheeseBurg> QUESTION: Will the SDK be updated every release or does it run on it's own schedule?
<swordfish> popey: thank you, but as example opencv is going to be pretty big, can't it be inported?
<swordfish> imported*
<mhall119> Krispy: non-existant at the moment
<popey> swordfish: no
<rschroll_> mhall119: Is there documentation / an API for this I should know about?
<GuidoPallemans> rschroll_: look in the cookbooks
<mhall119> rschroll_: there will be if there isn't, the security team would know more
<Krispy> That is sad...everything else is so elegant but the WAP Gmail is terrible.  I have the SDK...maybe time to start building
<mhall119> #ubuntu-security I think
<popey> Krispy: please do! :D
<swordfish> popey: ok.. thanks
<Krispy> Cheers...back to my full time gig
<GuidoPallemans> QUESTION: I don't really know how to make a click package. Is there a session about click packages and/or a tutorial?
<rickspencer3> I don't think that's quite how it will work
<rickspencer3> I think you will ask a helper to provide you with files that you want
<rschroll_> OK.  will ask there
<rickspencer3> for example, if you want to import pictures you can use the content hub to import pictures
<rickspencer3> you *won't* be able to ask for access to just anywhere on the file system
<rickspencer3> mhall119, ^
<mhall119> rickspencer3: reading it, I'll update on the video
<karni> GuidoPallemans: There's "Packaging" option in Qt Creator (Ubuntu SDK)
<karni> GuidoPallemans: also, you can look up "click packaging" on yt, I've seen a clip or two about it
<GuidoPallemans> karni: I know, but I don't know how to use it
<popey> Feel fee to add notes to http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-roundtable
<karni> GuidoPallemans: http://sergiusens.github.io/posts/click-packages-included-on-ubuntu-touch.html
<mhall119> GuidoPallemans: there are on the foundations track I think
<mhall119> GuidoPallemans: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/search/?q=click&x=-1119&y=-99
<rickspencer3> QUESTION: I find a spend a lot of time in qml making things like columns and flickables and stuff layout properly ... any thought to a set of design patterns for qml?
<karni> GuidoPallemans: most def, have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjGAnV33GHU
<GuidoPallemans> all bookmarked, thanks
<karni> yw
<marrabld_> QtQuick V2.0 isn't installed on 12.10  I had to use this work around http://askubuntu.com/questions/236166/qtquick-version-2-0-is-not-installed-while-trying-to-run-currencyconverter-exa  to get it to work.  Is it possible to update the app developer website
<mhall119> rickspencer3: if you could find somebody's time to write it :)
<rickspencer3> mhall119, I don't even know who knows how to do it ;)
<mhall119> anybody on the SDK team probably
<mhall119> bzoltan or kaleo
<mhall119> would be the ones I asked
<GuidoPallemans> any other questions?
<clepto1995> QUESTION: is there going to be something like Intents on android?
<CheeseBurg> QUESTION: Will there be a session on the app store?
<CheeseBurg> FOLLOW-UP: I am talking about the app discovery.
<CheeseBurg> How does app discovery work in the dash (or is that not the place for this discussion)?
<karni> dpm: mhall119: forwarded you feedback e-mail (not sure if you saw it)
<CheeseBurg> But what if I am just browsing and not looking for something specific?
<CheeseBurg> How will that work in the dash?
<karni> um
<karni> I'll definitely join the feedback session
<karni> right
<karni> including cordova
<dpm> karni, was this on Cordova apps?
<dpm> karni, ah, perfect, thanks!
<karni> also in general about qtc and ubuntu-html5-theme
<karni> yw guys!
<karni> Soon I'll have a really simple todo app, both in HTML5 and QML (basically the same app, to consitute an example you can implement in whichever you feel more fluent)
<karni> Fiddling with the QML version today.
<marrabld_> QUESTION: Is it possible to use python bindings for touch?
<karni> marrabld_: PyQt.. ? Correct me if I'm wrong guys.
<jasonamyers> AMEN moving from python feels really odd!
<marrabld_> karni: I am not sure pyqt will work naturally on touch.  I use it for desktop apps all the time
<timp> marrabld_, karni we use Qt5 for touch, and pyqt for qt5 is still in development
<marrabld_> timp:  Thanks
<karni> timp: thank you
<timp> ohhh what I just said is wrong. I see that PyQt5 was released very recently!
<timp> woo :)
<timp> I'd say we should be able to make it work together, but we haven't had time (in the UITK team) yet to look at it. http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/software/pyqt/download5
<marrabld_> I might stick to trying to write my physics engine in C++ then.  Makeing pthyon works sound stoo hard.
<marrabld_> great, thanks.
<karni> What it's called again? (out of curiosity)
<timp> time for angry penguins :)
<karni> That library you mentioned
<mhall119> karni: Box2D
<karni> timp: hahah
<karni> mhall119: thank you
<GuidoPallemans> timp: haha
<mhall119> np
<marrabld_> sweet.  I love physics though.  :-)  Okayu Ill check Box2d  thanks
<timp> angry penguins with evil seals as adversaries
<jasonamyers> thanks!
<karni> Thanks guys
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Weather and calculator app designs showcase | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21929/appdev-1308-design-review-weather/
<istimsak> yes we can
<popey> mhall119: live!
<mhall119> popey: wrong channel
<popey> oof
<pietro98-albini> WebbyIT, o/
<istimsak> take your time guys
<roadmr> +1 I can hear you
<dpm> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/daa511603d2779a948acfa047c72b7418749fc27
<dpm> for anyone to join the session ^
<zyga> yes I can see that
 * zyga is interested in the design and how that translates to more traditional, boring, office-y click-here-to-do-that-business-thing apps
<dpm> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-design-review-weather
<istimsak> Why was the usage of python discontinued?
<zyga> istimsak: we're doing a python3 app that uses ubuntu SDK but we've had to use DBus as a bridge
<zyga> keep going, I'd love to see more of this!
<dpm> any questions on IRC on the weather designs?
<istimsak> zyga: this means the ubuntu SDK package includes, QML and javascript which is more easier to develop ubuntu apps? What did you mean, "had to use a DBus bridge"?
<zyga> why did you use a small fraction of the screen rather than make the weather app full screen?
<zyga> istimsak: there are no python3 bindings for all the current Qt5-based QT and QML stuff so we wrote our app UI in C++ with a lot of dbus calls to the core that works in python3
<zyga> there is no gradient on my daily package
<zyga> (at least not in the weather app)
<zyga> QUESTION: why did you use a small fraction of the screen rather than make the weather app full screen?
<zyga> thanks
<zyga> for the key information
<zyga> for the temperature
<zyga> and "icon"
<zyga> (yeah the delay kills interactivity a bit)
<roadmr> dpm: are you running the hangout? could you lock your video window on the one with the actual phone screens?
<zyga> that's not what I mean
<zyga> not about putting everything on the screen
<zyga> but just the two bits of info
<roadmr> zyga: you should join the hangout, there are places :P
<zyga> they are very small and the screen is largely unused
<zyga> yes it works
<neokore> don't know if it's the right moment, but... could you explain something about the daily and hourly scroll?
<zyga> question about the calculator app, do you think that adding an ability to put names to computation makes sense? traditionally input on touchscreens is not something that people _want to_ do, especially in an app that never had that functionality (all the other calculator apps out there)
<dpm> neokore, sure, since we've started calculator, let's answer it towards the end. What in particular would you like to know more about daily/hourly scrolling?
<zyga> you kind of answered it before I got the answer
<zyga> I see your rationale
<neokore> dpm: Sorry, the delay :) I want to know about gestures to scroll between hourly and daily forecasts
<neokore> dpm I thought about it because I'm working on it right now
<istimsak> zyga: so you have to write UI apps in c++ to use DBus for python3 and QT-based apps to communicate? I guess the python3 and QT were not easily compatible. Will older apps that were built using python be converted to QML?
<zyga> istimsak: I cannot speak about other apps
<zyga> istimsak: python has qt bindings, just qt5 is missing at this time
<istimsak> zyga: what are the benefits of using qt5?
<zyga> istimsak: we want to allow our app to have a touch UI in the future
<zyga> istimsak: and it kind of made that possible
<zyga> istimsak: (it's pretty much touch friendly now, we just need to push it through a few iterations on actual touch devies0
<zyga> devices)
<dpm> neokore, that's your question being answered right now :)
<istimsak> zyga: great!!! So if I wanted to to get my hands dirty it ubuntu app development, the it would be better understand qt5?
<zyga> istimsak: depending on what kind of apps you want to do
<zyga> istimsak: games don't typically seem to use qt5 AFAIK
<zyga> istimsak: desktop apps, yeah, sure
<zyga> istimsak: touch apps, yeah, especially qml2
<istimsak> zyga: thank you. Great session :-)
<neokore> dpm, thank you and sorry about delay, I get the video a pair of minutes late
<zyga> I would love to see some _GENERAL_ design guidelines, not specific to a particular touch app
<dpm> neokore, no worries. Did that answer the question? It's a bit difficult to explain in words, but Christina and Michal are going to publish a video for it to make it clearer
<zyga> I understand that before the platform is out and people get the feeling of it it's a bit hard to do
<neokore> It's answered, I saw a former video but I think that I'll write them or talk tomorrow in the design meeting, thank you all again
<dpm> http://design.ubuntu.com/apps
<zyga> thanks! I'll check the schedule
<dpm> any more questions on weather or calc design?
<dpm> neokore, any other questions on weather?
<neokore> dpm well... maybe some ideas about the famous scroll :D
<neokore> dpm, maybe it will be useful to differ between touch and scroll for daily forecast and touch, _hold_ and scroll for hourly forecast
<dpm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone-coreapps/+filebug
<neokore> what Christina and Michall think?
<zyga> did you think about using a set of pre-selected words (or icons) for calculator labels?
<zyga> (with an option to use a custom text if so desired)
<WebbyIT> zyga, we'll put the location where the calc has been done
<WebbyIT> zyga, we are working on it
<dpm> any other questions?
<zyga> nope, thanks
<dpm> thanks everyone!
<zyga> there is a 4 minute lag!
<zyga> wow
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<dpm> neokore, sure, feel free to bring any feedback on the next design hangout, or if you cannot make it to the hangout, e-mail will work as well
<neokore> dpm, good I'll make it. Thank you!
<dpm> cool :)
<dpm> for everyone who was attending the session about Testing with the Ubuntu SDK, there's been a slight change of schedule due to conflicting sessions: the Testing with the Ubuntu SDK session has now moved to Thursday
<iahmad> :/
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Testing with the ubuntu sdk | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21838/appdev-1308-quality-testing-sdk/
<zyga> hi
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<zyga> hmm is http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21838/appdev-1308-quality-testing-sdk/ supposed to be here now?
<dobey> yes
<boiko> it seems the session was moved to Thursday
<zyga> yeah
<dobey> bah
<dobey> ok
<mojo706> sorry guys session moved to Thursday according dpm
<dpm> for everyone who was attending the session about Testing with the Ubuntu SDK, there's been a slight change of schedule due to conflicting sessions: the Testing with the Ubuntu SDK session has now moved to Thursday
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | E-mail app planning | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21911/appdev-1308-email-app-planning/
<mojo706> aaah
<popey> dpm: whats the url?
<dpm> on it :)
<dpm> popey, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3f7d5fef392b5663f39cc47b63b8fd1c02f636e0
<pmcgowan> we can hear you
<MobbyG> Hear you!
<barry> folder subscriptions?
<dpm> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-email-app-planning
<dpm> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3f7d5fef392b5663f39cc47b63b8fd1c02f636e0
<or211> Any plans for calendar integration?
<pmcgowan> popey, we havent made a set list I know of
<pmcgowan> popey, maps need to be addressed for example
<popey> thanks
<dinkometalac> youtube
<dinkometalac> also
<pmcgowan> more webapps for sure
<dinkometalac> but we cannot count on youtube
<dinkometalac> without proper html5 video in webview
<pmcgowan> interested to see what emerges from the contest
<popey> +1
<pmcgowan> dinkometalac, we will have that soon btw
<dinkometalac> great
<dinkometalac> i already have some working code
<dinkometalac> for playing the video
<dinkometalac> and lorenzo (i think it was the name)
<dinkometalac> already did some on youtube api
<dinkometalac> i think v3
<popey> pmcgowan: welcome to join us if you want?
<pmcgowan> yes
<pmcgowan> agree
<popey> agree to what? â»
<popey> sorry, we're 1 min ahead of you
<pmcgowan> lol
<houseofbean> I'm interesting in the email app, but I'm a noob.
<mojo706> houseofbean, define noob
<dpm> pmcgowan, do you know what"TDB"  in Assign labels (TDB) is?
<pmcgowan> hmm
<pmcgowan> tbd probably
<pmcgowan> popey, yes
<houseofbean> mojo706:  Well, I'm not a noob with Ubuntu. Using it since 9.04.  But I'd like to get into making apps, and learning more about coding .  I can't really code, but I would be able to help test stuff.  I'm a noob with python and coding in general
<mojo706> Email App Suggestion: Choice on how long to keep messages
<mojo706> houseofbean, then learn coding first.
<mojo706> you can contribute later
<pmcgowan> I think mhall did a run through the reqts met by trojita, will see if I can find that
<popey> pmcgowan: we have that
<pmcgowan> popey, vg nm
<houseofbean> mojo706:  Thanks for the coding advice.  I've only flirted with php and python.  Yeah, can't really contribute if you can't code.  ha ha.  But I'll get there sooner than later.
<mojo706> good
<TheMuso> houseofbean: If you want to get involved with writing apps for Ubuntu touch faster, you might want to learn Qml.
<TheMuso> But learning python is also good, because you get a good grounding in the basics, and in objected oriented programming.
<houseofbean> TheMuso: I've got Ubuntu touch on my Nexus 4 and it's a beautiful tease.  I plan on learning Qml too.
<TheMuso> houseofbean: The best of luck.
<houseofbean> TheMuso:  Thank you
<TheMuso> houseofbean: Hope it works out for you.
<pmcgowan> yeah good cut
<pmcgowan> would existing app developers be free to do the UI
<pmcgowan> core app devs
<mojo706> what are the milestones? how do we find out the milestones?
<popey> we set them at the start of the project
<pmcgowan> popey, do we have an lp project already?
<popey> yes
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone-commons/+milestones
<houseofbean> Filters would be great later on.
<dpm> current milestones ^^
<popey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-emailclient-app
<popey> ^^ needs rebooting
<pmcgowan> ack
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps
<mojo706> thanks
<popey> thanks guys!
<houseofbean> Thank you to everyone!
<pmcgowan> thanks guys
<dpm> thanks everyone!
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<dpm> good start to UDS, see you all tomorrow!
<mojo706> goodnight!
<scarneiro> quit
#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-08-28
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | AppDev Roundtable - Wed | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21926/appdev-roundtable-wed/
<mhall119> dpm: and anybody else who wants to join the roundtable: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en
<dpm> thanks mhall119, setting up another device to try to join in
<mhall119> popey: want to join the roundtable hangout?
<rschroll> your on
<kunal_> yes, able to see
<dinkometalac> only michael?
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> dpm: popey:  either of you joining?
<dpm> mhall119, trying now
<rschroll> Followup on file access from yesterday
<rschroll> I asked on ubuntu-security, and was pointed to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/ApplicationConfinement/Manifest
<rschroll> This looks like what mhall was suggesting
<rschroll> not what rickspencer was talking about
<rschroll> So, what's the deal here?
<GuidoPallemans> Is it currently possible to download files to disk? how will this be implemented?
<rschroll> This is still in development, though?
<rschroll> For the purposes of the app showdown, do I just worry about the manifest?
<GuidoPallemans> ok, thanks!
<popey> mhall119: on the weather app design call
<GuidoPallemans> sounds cool
<mhall119> kenvandine
<GuidoPallemans> haven't seen it yet
<GuidoPallemans> ill look for the session
<GuidoPallemans> can't seem to find it
<mhall119> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21909/foundations-s-touch-download-service/
<GuidoPallemans> Maybe some sessions should only be half an hour long, this way you can still have you and your colleuge on the same session and there will be more questions :D
<rschroll> I have a bunch of sorta specific questions; don't know if they're appropriate here
<mhall119> rschroll: may as well ask
<GuidoPallemans> oh, yeah, it's not in appdev
<GuidoPallemans> bookmarked it though
<rschroll> How do you use Arguments with qmlscene?  I get both args for the app and qmlscene mixed together.
<rschroll> http://askubuntu.com/questions/336083/how-to-use-arguments-in-qml-without-getting-qmlscene-arguments
<mhall119> rschroll: can't you just ignore them?
<rschroll> yes, but I have to decide whether an input is for me or for qmlscene
<rschroll> It works, but I thought I was missing a better way
<rschroll> Another specific question: Is it possible to style the options in a ValueSelector?  I can copy the code for it and apply the styling I want, but that seems ugly.
<rschroll> Is there a way to modify the styling of an existing selector, or to subclass the ValueSelector?
<mhall119> rschroll: might be better to ask in #ubuntu-touch where the sdk developers reside
<rschroll> ok
<GuidoPallemans> Will there be an API that enables you to do an action every x minutes while your app isn't running? Like checking if you have a mail or a message, or...
<kunal_> I was wondering if we have any contacts related API
<GuidoPallemans> ok, thanks
<kunal_> I mean dialog box for choosing contact
<kunal_> ok
<GuidoPallemans> the nexus 4 dropped in price today, will this have any effect on the prizes of the showdown?  ^^
<ThankyouMrMiner> mhall119: your fan that is reflected in the picture frame is hypnotizing me :)
<mhall119> better?
<ThankyouMrMiner> not sure lag ...
<ThankyouMrMiner> yes much better :)
<GuidoPallemans> I don't want my shitty gitHub client on everybody's phone!
<GuidoPallemans> hahaha
<wellsb> lol
<GuidoPallemans> It's available immediately actually
<mhall119> immediately?  It used to take youtube a while to process
<popey> I look forward to going back and re-living mhall119's grandma joke
<mhall119> :P
<rschroll> mhall119: Thanks for the help!
<GuidoPallemans> will some people of the design team be joining us now?
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Visual design guide for Apps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21924/appdev-1308-visual-design-guide/
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en
<GuidoPallemans> up
<netcurli> we can see you
<GuidoPallemans> have you guys seen the sidebar component? What are your thoughts on that?
<swordfish> Yep...
<GuidoPallemans> the sidebar component is visible in the file manager
<mhall119> GuidoPallemans: only in desktop mode
<GuidoPallemans> indeed, but I always include a button to view the contents of the sidebar, is this ok from a design point of view?
<aquarius> I missed the first part of this talk :(
<WebbyIT> aquarius, they are recorded, so you can watch later on youtube ;)
<kunal_> do we have iconography ? how icons should look like for toolbar and else where
<aquarius> There was suggestion from katie at the end about how the gradient-background approach is really intended for the ritual apps. Is there guidance on what non-ritual apps (i.e., most of them) should be doing? I saw something about "the medium theme" -- is that avaialble?
<aquarius> also, I agree with kunal_ -- having a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing -- would be really nice
<jonobacon> QUESTION: I would love to see apps use realistic components (e.g. a notepad app look like a real notepad)...Apple does this well - does the team have any guidance on this?
<jonobacon> more specifically, can we get some guidelines for how to use realistic looking visual elements
<aquarius> agreed with mhall119 -- there are lots of examples of how the design team have chosen the visual design for specific apps, but not *why* those were chosen. :)
<aquarius> jonobacon, just say no to skeuomorphism ;)
<GuidoPallemans> on the phone, the sidebar is hidden, but accessible through a menu button (at least in my app)
<justForQuestions> QUESTION:  are they any guide lines for when a user should use a Coverflow or a listview or a gridView or a Path/SVGView  ect
<justForQuestions> example taking the listview in music app and having in coverflow ect
<justForQuestions> dynamically changing.
<aquarius> ahem. "Do, well, whatever you want!" is not guidance, katie ;-)
<GuidoPallemans> not much engineers use pinterest though
<aquarius> GuidoPallemans, should do more, though. Pinterest is an *excellent* source of design inspiration.
<jonobacon> mhall119: I think what we could do with help from the design team on is a set of guidelines for how people can add visual flourish without dumping a gradient in there
<jonobacon> can we ask the team to commit to making some guidelines for this
<aquarius> agreed with jonobacon.
<jonobacon> otherwise I worry we will end up with a tonne of gradient apps :-)
<Qb1t3r> What happened with the "Locally Integrated Menu - LID" idea for desktop? LID is dead for convergence apps? How the desktop menu will correspond to the phone/tablet menu in convergence app?
<aquarius> we will. Because currently it's easy to have (a) a grey app or (b) a gradient, and that's it. We are not at all free to lay out the app how we want -- the header has to be at the top, with a stock font size, etc -- so colour is one of the big ways to differentiate.
<GuidoPallemans> QUESTION I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I saw the locker-type lock (where you highlight numbers by sliding around a circle), and thought it was really nice, will this be implemented?
<jonobacon> mhall119: I think the challenge app devs face is that they need a set of more prescriptive guidelines from the design team - general approaches design are hard for people who don't have design experience - can we ask the design team to commit to expanding the set of app guidelines that cover the topics outlines in this session?
<michelR> An exemple of expected guideline : "how to handle 'settings' panel ?" (a) as a tab (--> non modal)  (b) as a special page (--> called from the toolbar, modal)
<aquarius> Perhaps something that would be useful is the design team's interpretation of an app which is *not* a ritual app. At the moment all the visual design we've seen is for the ritual apps, so that's all that everyone has to copy.
<jonobacon> aquarius: +1
 * WebbyIT think that is the  most interesting session until now
<jonobacon> much as it pains me to agree with you :-)
<jonobacon> LOL
 * aquarius grins
<WebbyIT> ahahaha
<aquarius> The design blog post about visual exploration is http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/
<justForQuestions> Question: are there any  icons / anything that you guys(designers) that is in QML ?  example using your examples as real world examples.  some developers have trouble cuttin up pictures ect.
<GuidoPallemans> ohh that's a shame
<justForQuestions> so like when designing a page keep icons and other things in there own file
<justForQuestions> make a branch ect
<GuidoPallemans> maybe there should be a weekly hangout where an app, where the design guys talk about an app, how it can be done better, and/or a developer can ask for advice and defend his design solutions etc.
<jonobacon> mhall119: what is the hangout URL?
<jonobacon> would like to join
<GuidoPallemans> whoops brain fart
<netcurli> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en
<aquarius> QUESTION: (also asked by kunal) will there be a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing, or should everyone be just choosing their own?
<michelR> Any news on the "back" button ? days ago, Design Team said they were working on a new implementation requiring only one tap (instead of 2 now)
<mhall119> justForQuestions: can you clarify your question about icons? I don't understand
<justForQuestions> mhall119:  Like the examples that are on the design page and for core apps.  If the icons and what not where in seperate files then the developer's life becomes easier.  and also for developers to play with the design that canonical has worked so hard on.  Would help with training I think
<GuidoPallemans> a weekly clinic where the design guidelines get applied to an app will be great, even greater would be if developers can show their own designs and ask questions around that
<aquarius> ooh, cool, there's a toolbar action icon set? making those available would be excellent!
<GuidoPallemans>  /usr/share/icons/ubuntu-mobile
<GuidoPallemans> is that it?
<swordfish> GuidoPallemans: I think it is... Or at least I hope, since it's what I'm using :D
<GuidoPallemans> yeah me too
<GuidoPallemans> also on desktop
<GuidoPallemans> mhall119: katie I was referring to these: http://imgur.com/qGZlaeC
<aquarius> thanks, katie et al.
<aquarius> katie, one other question: you have a high-res image of a "generic" mobile phone, I think (the one used in all the pictures at http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/). Is that asset available to everyone else so we can make nice looking mockups too? :-) /cc mhall119
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Core Apps Review | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21953/appdev-1308-coreapps-review/
<mhall119> aquarius: I also asked victorp if he had any of the Edge
<mhall119> no reply yet though
<aquarius> mhall119, yeah -- having some would be nice for our mockup-y thing :)
<mhall119> agreed
 * popey waves to mhall119 
<mhall119> popey: getting it setup
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9fe4244b49578122ad1761a9b2734a41a3f03ea4?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join the fishbowl
<popey> hehe
<mhall119> popey: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/731ba92244eff4fa4e63dea732e20d3b55ae333b?authuser=1&hl=en
<timp> I just like to watch :) but I don't see the video yet
<balloons> I'll be trying to listen to a couple sessions
<mhall119> dpm: dude, you gotta tell me when you move sessions, I started the wrong one
<timp> ok the video is starting
<timp> ah no it says starting soon
 * WebbyIT is interesting to listening
<popey> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-coreapps-review
<dpm> mhall119, ah, sorry, I generally do, we had to change it so that popey could participate. Sorry Mike, I was doing too many things at the same time
<mhall119> timp: should be live now
<WebbyIT> yes, I can see you
<timp> mhall119: now you're live
<timp> mhall119: ahh, you're all alone? :(
<timp> mhall119: oh you are not alone, but I don't see the thumbnails at the bottom
<mhall119> yeah, the broadcast only shows one person at a time
<timp> popey: way to go. You look like a shampoo commercial with the wind in your hair :)
<timp> I don't see an etherpad in firefox
<mhall119> timp: try opening http://pad.ubuntu.com in a separate tab and logging in, then go back to the summit page
<timp> mhall119: that works. thanks.
<mojo706> that weather app looks great
<mhall119> mojo706: it really does, doesn't it?
<mojo706> yes
<GuidoPallemans> can you show that again? it wasnt on the big screen
<mojo706> could you show that again
<mojo706> yeah we couldn't see it properly
<GuidoPallemans> it isnt on the big screen, you should say something
<mojo706> very nice
<GuidoPallemans> its ok
<tosho> will be there any time soon Ubuntu Touch UI Kit for Gimp, Inkscape, Photoshop or Illustrator. and prototyping tool like  -http://jaunesarmiento.me/fries/
<GuidoPallemans> michael do you have the source? can you demo it?
<mhall119> GuidoPallemans: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-rssreader-app
<mojo706> markdown for doc viewer? and zsh?
<GuidoPallemans> that behaviour should be added to the keyboard
<mhall119> GuidoPallemans: what behavior?
<GuidoPallemans> the arrow behaviour in the console app
<bzoltan> ping mhall119
<mhall119> bzoltan: pong
<bzoltan> mhall119:  what time the SDK porting session starts?
<mhall119> bzoltan: later today, it was moved
<bzoltan> mhall119: is this schedule up to date? http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/2013-08-28/display?
<mhall119> bzoltan: should be, refresh to make sure you have the latest
<bzoltan> mhall119:  OK, so it starts in an hour
<timp> for some reason I thought it would start now
<popey> nice one dpm mhall119
<bzoltan> mhall119:  I try to make it, but 9pm here might be tricky :) I just put the kids to sleep
<popey> Lunchtime!
<popey> :D
<bzoltan> popey:  LOL :) 8pm, late dinner time
<dpm> thanks popey, mhall119
<dpm> or early breakfast
<timp> shouldn't every second vUDS be scheduled according to a European timezone? :)
<dpm> timp, yeah, it kind of slipped off, but as someone living in Europe, I'll make sure to raise it next time we plan UDS :)
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<bzoltan> timp, dpm:  regardless how much I love my own TZ, I think it is the audience and target group what counts ... if the contributors are mostly in the US timezones then we should adopt to them.
<testo> There is no calendar since Evolution is not installed
<VJ> hi
<VJ> hello
<VJ> Mickael
<VJ> Hello any 1 there ?
<WebbyIT> hi VJ
<VJ> Hey webbyIT , i am newbe in Linux world , really exited so can you like give me some advise for startups ?
<WebbyIT> VJ, for support go to #ubuntu
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Porting the Ubuntu SDK to Windows and Mac | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21917/appdev-1308-sdk-porting/
<zyga_> hi
<mhall119> hello
<ayr_ton> mhall119, o/
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en please join the fishbowl if you're interested in this session
<dobey> it's streaming
<zyga> it's up
<sethj> you're live
<ayr_ton> ok
<dobey> QUESTION: what about the APIs which will be on Ubuntu, such as online-accounts? would they be ported too?
<LinkedLibMess> Depends if the libs are on machine or allowed on the machine (qt creator stuff)
<LinkedLibMess> any linked lib that is not on machine is going to make qtcreator not running
<dobey> it's not that simple
<mmcc> Hi - I have USB bridging working OK (with a couple of minor convenience bugs) on OSX host with a virtualbox guest, and have been working on touch apps that way.
<LinkedLibMess> should build one that uses installbuilder just like qt does and that could all be one with links and what not as long as they run on doz
<LinkedLibMess> that is how sailfish does it also
<mmcc> I just heard mhall ask if qtcreator and adb works over USB from a guest - this works OK for me from virtualbox
<mhall119> thanks mmcc
<mmcc> yes, flashing is a bit of a dance
<LinkedLibMess> another thing is some of the scripts that are in the sdk are wrote in bash and not sure about windows and bash (have used in years )
<LinkedLibMess> hove not *
<dobey> i would stay away from xcode or visual studio
<mmcc> avoid avoid xcode
<dobey> you'd basically have to embed qtcreator itself, to be useful
<mmcc> (this from a longtime xcode user)
<dobey> otherwise you won't have any UI design tool really
<mmcc> xcode would be very hostile to that kind of thing
<dobey> at which point you might as well just use emacs or vim
<LinkedLibMess> Things like anything like dbus and metadata stuff would also be hard to port
<dobey>  dbus is ported. but making everything work right natively is hard
<LinkedLibMess> what are the pro files for the qtcreator
<LinkedLibMess> what is package called ?
<dobey> mhall119: i'd just run everything in a vm
<dobey> LinkedLibMess: the .pro files are qmake description files
<mmcc> I agree, if you have to use a VM to run, might as well use it to develop, since this stuff is supposed to have a quick edit/run cycle
<dobey> i would just qemu everything
<dobey> a touch image with the sdk included.
<mmcc> having a full desktop image to run the app is really helpful for debugging when you want to tail debug logs while you're testing
<dobey> and it's probably eaiser to just install ubuntu in virtualbox or vmware and just develop on ubuntu in a vm
<dobey> (like some developers i know do)I
<mmcc> I do that. It works* now. (* except for some 3d accel issues when running QML)
<dobey> i think they would be fine
<dobey> you could, if you use vmware fusion or something
<dobey> and cutting/pasting between vm and host is easy as well
<mmcc> virtualbox has a rootless thing too
<dobey> and host<->vm disk access is pretty easy
<LinkedLibMess> But what about the plugins that Ubuntu is using one can launch a vm from qtcreator real easy but having the plugins and what not that are only used by qtcreator be crossplatform ie the linked libs
<dobey> anyone writing android apps is already doing it all in a vm anyway ;)
<mmcc> coding in qtcreator inside the VM and using a mac email client is not bad. I do that
<LinkedLibMess> only for windows and mac ^^ tgat is with install builder
<LinkedLibMess> coding on mac and using vm to test apps is the way to go
<mmcc> premade VM images is most convenient
<LinkedLibMess> correct but other company's do it so why not canonical ?
<dobey> other companies do what?
<LinkedLibMess> as long as the libs are on windows qtcreator should run
<LinkedLibMess> dobey: qt is one themselfs
<mhall119> LinkedLibMess: the question will be how much work it is to get all of the libs and eternal executables on windows and osx
<LinkedLibMess> it all depends on what is used to make the qtcreator plugins for Ubuntu if them libs are there on doz or osx then it will work
<LinkedLibMess> mhall119: none at all make installbuilder
<mhall119> installbuilder?
<dobey> the qml components are an issue as well as the "plug-ins" for qtcreator itself
<LinkedLibMess> installbuilder packages for different platforms it is what sailfish and also qt themselfs
<LinkedLibMess> mhall119: ^^
<mhall119> LinkedLibMess: it's not jus packaging that's a concern
<dpm> I was just saying, with VM's, we'd probably have to offer images for x86 and amd64 as well?
<LinkedLibMess> but it would all be slow
<LinkedLibMess> if everything is in a vm things will be slow
<dobey> not if you have a core i7 3770
<zyga> dpm: I think we can be okay with just x86
<dobey> and 16GB RAM
<mojo706> dobey, hehehe
<dobey> all my VMs are fast :)
<mmcc> even less beefy systems are OK as long as the 3d is working
<LinkedLibMess> there is no reason why one can not use doz with qtcreator and then launch vm from qtcreator on the run button that pushs (app) to  vmmachine
<LinkedLibMess> but it again is all about if the libs can be compiled on doz and osx
<dobey> there are plenty of reasons you can't do that
<mojo706> extending eclipse seems better
<mmcc> doesn't qtcreator actually load QML components when in design mode? which means the components need to load their compiled plugins?
<LinkedLibMess> dobey: like what ?
<dobey> qtcreator needs the qml components to exist as well
<dobey> mmcc: yes
<LinkedLibMess> not if they are on the VM dobey
<dobey> mmcc: also, when doing autocomplete
<mojo706> and have an emulator
<mmcc> dobey: autocomplete might be handled by that txt .qmltypes file
<LinkedLibMess> though there would be some issues with highlighting and what not but not that bad
<dobey> mmcc: it also does error checking, so that if it can't load it, then it complains about it
<dobey> mmcc: which would be very annoying
<mmcc> dobey: right
<LinkedLibMess> someone give me windows licence and I will do it
<LinkedLibMess> lol
<mmcc> folks, I have to run early, but I will volunteer to test out VM images on OS X. I'm mike.mccracken@canonical.
<dobey> i run qtcreator in a vm without video accel and it was fast
<dobey> qmlscene runs slower natively on my laptop than it did in my vm without accel :(
<LinkedLibMess> I have also run qtcreator for years I know for sure that it is slow with things like 3d and gl and stuff like that
<mmcc> dobey: it's surely due to some combination of my hardware and vbox running on OS X host  :)
<mmcc> ('it' being the problems I mentioned with 3d)
<dobey> mmcc: your issues, yes :)
<mojo706> also state the specs that need to run the vms
<dobey> yeah, we ship python on win/mac
<LinkedLibMess> If sailfish can do Ubuntu can do it
<dobey> sailfish != ubuntu
<dobey> apple != orange
<LinkedLibMess> look for yourselfs they have linux mac and windows
<LinkedLibMess> the point is it is crossplatform
<dobey> yes, qt itself is cross platform
<LinkedLibMess> yes it uses vm on all and uses installbuilder to build the sdk
<LinkedLibMess> it is shipped with the sdk
<LinkedLibMess> it is the same for windows and osx
<LinkedLibMess> it can DL other images like armel7 and what not also
<LinkedLibMess> via script
<dobey> ugh. google really needs to run that gigabit fiber to their data centers, rather than kansas city
<LinkedLibMess> install builder ..   http://installbuilder.bitrock.com/
<dobey> packaging isn't an issue
<dobey> that's to build the installer, not the sdk
<LinkedLibMess> mhall119: they package the libs with it if needed
<LinkedLibMess> for each one
<dobey> we use that to build the installer for ubuntu one too
<LinkedLibMess> dobey: it was nice chatting with you :)
<LinkedLibMess> just wish I knew more about the linked libs that are linking making things that are not crossplatform
<lool> I'm afraid I didn't follow this session
<lool> SDK folks in the hangout?
<LinkedLibMess> like LIBS+= -L /usr/lib/something -lsomething
<dobey> lool: mhall119 and zyga and dpm are yes
<dpm> we're lesser mortals
<dpm> not part of the SDK team
<zyga> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en
<dobey> i can't join, because google+ seems to hate me today. i tried to join one earlier and got no video or audio once i joined :-/
<dobey> it's ok. people have to run osx to develop on ios :)
<LinkedLibMess> QUESTION: what is package name for the SDK not ubuntu-ui-toolkit but qtcreator build ?
<mojo706> dobey, no its still wrong
<dobey> LinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk
<mhall119> LinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk is the metapackage
<LinkedLibMess> that is package name for that metapackage ?
<LinkedLibMess> thanks
<LinkedLibMess> qtcreator-plugin-ubuntuu << that is what I am looking for that metapackage I guess :)
<LinkedLibMess> or offline installer ....
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | App Developer Mode for image-based Ubuntu Touch | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21914/appdev-1308-app-developer-mode/
<dobey> the bot lies
<mhall119> the bot is right, it's us that are late
<zyga> thanks, interesting session!
<mojo706> bye
<lool> who is opening the next hangout?
<cjwatson> mhall119 is the track lead, right?
<mhall119> yes
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en for joining the fish bowl, the more the merrier
<lool> thanks!
<dholbach> I'll just hang out here, my internet connection is not good enough today it seems :-(
<dholbach> did the hangout start already?
<doanac`> no
<cjwatson> dholbach: it's running but not live yet
<dholbach> go go go! :)
<cjwatson> it's on air now
<cjwatson> supposedly
<rickspencer3> o/
<lool> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409
 * tedg got video
<netcurli> i can see you
<rickspencer3> you're broadcating
<karni> You are broadcasting.
<ogra_> you seem to do
<rickspencer3> lool, can I join the hangout so I can ask my questions easier?
<mhall119> rickspencer3: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
<dholbach> who's speaking second from the left? or can you turn on your lower third? :)
<cjwatson> That was David Jordan, I believe
<cjwatson> I don't mean to be dismissive about the complex-dependencies case, but it's not one we can handle yet and I think it's important to get the things we can currently handle working well
<cjwatson> dmj_nova1: (you?)
<dmj_nova1> yes
<beuno> sergiusens, you look like you're in the witness protection programme
<dmj_nova1> my G+ plugin died
<sergiusens> beuno: lol
<sergiusens> beuno: light?
<dholbach> beuno, HAHA
<gatox_> beuno: heheh
<beuno> sergiusens, yes  :)
<dmj_nova1> cjwatson: I'm fine with taking things one step at a time
<lool> someone from SDK team joining?
<lool> bzoltan: around?
 * ogra_ was surprised he isnt 
<ogra_> since he owns the spec
<cjwatson> dmj_nova1: the click spec does have a slot for supporting additional "frameworks" which is probably going to form part of a later solution to this
<cjwatson> we deliberately excluded having complex dependencies though as then it's going to turn into .deb real quick
<beuno> I can join
<beuno> what's the link?
<karni> beuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> beuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
<dmj_nova1> as a dev advocating for more complex apps (which will be necessary for having truly killer apps) and someone involved with a more complex application, it will be helpful to know where things are going, that it will be possible to extend the platform
<cjwatson> if it's complexity contained within a single application then bundling is viable; it's only a difficulty if you want to do lots of library sharing
<dmj_nova1> and bundling complex dependencies is certainly not ideal
<dmj_nova1> for instance with dmedia, bundling might work if we knew the user would only ever use a single dmedia-based application, but 15 dmedia instances running on the same system would be a nightmare
<cjwatson> we've also talked about having a way to share code among click packages from a single origin
<cjwatson> which would require some extensions to apparmor profiles
<cjwatson> I'm reasonably confident we can do it :)
<ssweeny> i'm not sure if this is 100% on-topic for this discussion but if an app requires a new online-accounts plugin how would a developer install it? would it have to go into the Ubuntu image as a .deb or will there be a click mechanism for it?
<mhall119> ssweeny: good question
<dmj_nova1> cjwatson: We should definitely have a conversation about how to enable app ecosystems to extend the platform
<cjwatson> Yep.  But after 13.10 :-)
 * cjwatson <- a bit slammed
<cjwatson> ssweeny: for 13.10, there are a couple of answers
<tedg> It would be cool to have SSH on the phone :-)
<cjwatson> ssweeny: if it's something you can bundle in your app, do so
<mhall119> cjwatson: I'm not sure it is
<cjwatson> one moment, typing :)
<cjwatson> ssweeny: if it's an add-on to a system interface, and *if it can be apparmor-confined*, then you can have the system interface in question define a click hook that click packages can attach to
<ogra_> rickspencer3, people wanting to really deeply hack into the system can use the flipped image... they are always there since they are an interim product we need for system images
<mhall119> cjwatson: ssweeny: that's probably something we should have a separate discussion about
<ssweeny> cjwatson, right now those plugins are implemented as xml files dropped into a specific location on the filesystem
<lool> mhall119: (sorry I have a hard time breaking the notes into questions/ideas/concerns)
<rickspencer3> ogra_, or just go enter Read/Write mode, right?
<mhall119> lool: no worries, I can clean it up later
<ogra_> rickspencer3, thats still fairly restricted
<cjwatson> ssweeny: if it can't be apparmor-confined, then you can't do it for 13.10
<rickspencer3> ok
<rickspencer3> thanks ogra_
<ssweeny> cjwatson, ok
<cjwatson> ssweeny: if they can't execute arbitrary code (pure data), then you don't need confinement, just a click hook
<ssweeny> cjwatson, all they do is fill in values that online-accounts uses (API endpoints, keys, etc)
<cjwatson> ssweeny: OK, then that can be done with a click hook.  Contact me out of band if doc/hooks.rst in the click source package isn't sufficient
<ssweeny> cjwatson, ok, will do. thanks!
<rickspencer3> what happened when we are supposed to talk about technical details at UDS? ;)
<lool> :-)
<cjwatson> (I'm assuming you're a developer of the online-accounts package that would define this hook)
<dmj_nova1> cjwatson: The pure containment is a good thing for reducing the amount of verification time (which is the reason for this stuff I believe), but there definitely should be a mechanism for distributing apps outside basic scope
<cjwatson> dmj_nova1: we do have some slots in the code to build out this kind of thing in future
<tedg> Do we need a setting in system settings to enable this stuff?
<sergiusens> tedg: I would only say to enable ssh
<cjwatson> I think what we reached was a setting to enable ssh until the next reboot
<sergiusens> tedg: but not the _system developer mode_
<cjwatson> (backend: "service ssh start")
<tedg> To enable adb as well, no?
<tedg> Or whatever
<tedg> Ah, okay.  yes
<dmj_nova1> also, do you believe that end users will be able to access this read-write mode/switch from image-based updates on their purchased devices from an OEM/carrier?
<cjwatson> rickspencer3: ^- is that something you can speak to?
<rickspencer3> cjwatson, yeah, but in another discussion right now
<tedg> Won't it be the same as a PIN if you set it?
<tedg> If it's swipe, it should be null....
<tedg> If you set a PIN, it's the PIN.
<dmj_nova1> novacut has some useful peer techniques
<tedg> Perhaps only enable SSH if you have a PIN set?
<ogra_> tedg, with swipe you indeed type in "swipe"
<tedg> ogra_, Hah, and then I get a phone from a German OEM and I won't be able to log in without the character map ;-)
<ogra_> :D
<cjwatson> tedg: If you have an open SSH server then you can brute-force the entire PIN space probably without the user noticing
<cjwatson> So I cannot recommend using the PIN
<tedg> cjwatson, Hmm, but I'd imagine that'll be the user account's password, no?
<cjwatson> I like this QR code idea
<cjwatson> tedg: The SSH server doesn't necessarily have to have passwords enabled, especially not if we use this clever QR code idea suggested on the hangout
<ogra_> cjwatson, ++
<tedg> Sorry, just got the QR code thing :-)
<beuno> that's probably the first time I've heard someone smart say something good about QR codes
<tedg> Okay, so disable passwords, then scan.
<cjwatson> :-)
<dmj_nova1> www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awz_sGj0Zhw
<tedg> lool, I think "no password" isn't good
<tedg> I think if you're using a PIN to login, it should be the PIN.
<ogra_> tedg, "locked password"
<ogra_> not "no password"
<lool> tedg: disabled password
<lool> "!" as password
<cjwatson> A PIN should be a different PAM authentication mechanism
<cjwatson> It should not be hooked up such that things that do remote auth might accidentally use it
<tedg> Why wouldn't you use the PIN with PAM?
<cjwatson> But only for auth when logging in on screen
<dmj_nova1> btw, the pin in the video is a one-time pin, just to get the key across securely
<cjwatson> tedg: You would, just not via PAM password auth
<cjwatson> Keep it separate because it's not the same thing :)
<tedg> I guess I kinda do see it as the same thing... "this is how I login to my device"  -- PIN, password or swipe.
<tedg> If I plug in my phone and I'm using it as a desktop... how do I get through the greeter?
<cjwatson> It should be kept separate at the PAM layer so that different session-creating services can use different policies
<cjwatson> That's all I'm saying
<cjwatson> A PIN does not make sense to expose for network login methods where you can attack the entire PIN space at your leisure
<cjwatson> But it's fine for local login
<cjwatson> Or, to put it another way, why conflate PINs with passwords when we don't have to, given that they're conceptually different
<cjwatson> And I've just exhibited a case where distinguishing them is useful :)
<tedg> cjwatson, I see what you're saying, but I guess I worry that we're separating things that users don't see as different.
<dmj_nova1> yeah, let's not mix unlock pin with complete device access
<rickspencer3> lool, do you want me to join the hangout to try to answer dmj_nova1's question?
<cjwatson> tedg: This wouldn't generally need to be exposed to users, so I don't see that as a concern, really
<lool> rickspencer3: if you like, we kind of switched topic I'm afraid
<cjwatson> Not many users will need remote access to their phone, but let's not open security holes for those who do :)
<lool> dmj_nova1: including link to your peering setup in pad, thanks
<tedg> cjwatson, I'm just guessing that those who do probably aren't happy with a PIN anywhere ;-)
<dmj_nova1> lool: feel free to ask me or jderose about how it works
<lool> thanks
<dmj_nova1> or look at the peering code in dmedia
<cjwatson> tedg: Some won't be, but I think some will be fine - attacking an entire PIN space on a phone screen is maybe possible but would take a long time
<cjwatson> And be kind of obvious
<dmj_nova1> lool: you can find us in #novacut
<tedg> cjwatson, Don't we delay on failed attempts with network services?
<rickspencer3> lool, I don't much care to join the hangout, I can just answer here
<rickspencer3> dmj_nova1, did you get an answer to your question?
<cjwatson> tedg: Yeah, but if you leave your phone connected overnight (etc.) that's still plenty of time
<cjwatson> tedg: Somebody actually getting hold of your phone is quite a different matter and a lot more obvious ...
<tedg> Interesting.  Perhaps we need the delay to increase exponentially ;-)  Anyway, topic for beer.
<karni> .wc
<karni> sorry, that was window close in irssi ;d
<tedg> mhall119, Assign mpt to update the design first
<mhall119> tedg: design of what?
<tedg> mhall119, System settings
<mhall119> tedg: done
<dholbach> thanks a bunch!
<netcurli> thanks
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 2013-08-29
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | AppDev Roundtable - Thu | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21927/appdev-roundtable-thu/
<mhall119> fishbowl link: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/1e6bd7ba84c1db299f1c272888a0b862b08cec8f?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> popey: dpm: ^^
<popey> thanks
<popey> be there in a mo
<dpm> yep, coming!
<rickspencer3> I can hear you guys :)
<wellsb> It's playing
<timp> mhall119: video is playing for me
<timp> hello zoltan
<rickspencer3> I was enjoying the banter!
<popey> â»
<popey> I am being watched by my mother in law's owls
<timp> popey: real owls like this http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01495/Owl-ucinating_532_1495434a.jpg or does "owls" mean something else?
<popey> timp: no, lots of pictures and models of owls
<popey> like _loads_ of them
<popey> Any questions at all?
<popey> Anything we need to discuss?
<alex-abreu> mhall119, bzoltan arg!
<mhall119> alex-abreu: is that a yes arg or a no arg?
<mhall119> balloons: ping
<alex-abreu> mhall119, if it is convenient for you then go for it, ... :)
<kunal_> dpm: here is screen shot http://design.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads/02_month2-copy.jpg
<dpm> thanks kunal_!
<dpm> bzoltan, http://design.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads/02_month2-copy.jpg
<timp> I wonder whether the BubbleShape component in the Ambience theme could be useful for that.
<timp> it is meant to be used by the Popover
<timp> for a custom "hack" in the calendar app, the calendar developers can have a look at BubbleShape.qml
<mhall119> kunal_: ^^
<popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ux/+bugs?orderby=status&start=0
<kunal_> any link for BubbleShape.qml ?
<dpm> timp, ^
<mhall119> alex-abreu: ok, we're moving the HTML5 session then, sorry about that
<alex-abreu> mhall119, next hour?
<mhall119> yes
<timp> kunal_: here you can see how it is used: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/trunk/view/head:/modules/Ubuntu/Components/Themes/Ambiance/PopoverForegroundStyle.qml
<timp> kunal_: and here is the source http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/trunk/view/head:/modules/Ubuntu/Components/Themes/Ambiance/BubbleShape.qml
<kunal_> timp, thanks
<timp> kunal_: it was meant for Popover, and has some stuff (like the arrow/pointer) that you don't need. But maybe there's some useful code in there
<timp> kunal_: bubbleshape is "only" part of the theme, and not part of the UITK public API, so don't rely on it being always there
<bzoltan> I have read this : http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-app-developer-mode
<bzoltan> mhall119 ^
<kunal_> ok, will check out the code, how i can use it
<timp> QUESTION: do you think that everything (all packages) needed to build your software (including cpp) on the device in the default images? It is a developer preview after all
<timp> now I have to install all the packages after an upgrade
<timp> ^+"should be included" (in the the default images)
<popey> https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-32225
<popey> dpm: ^
<dpm> thanks popey ;)
<timp> mhall119: ok, thanks
<popey> np
<CheeseBurg> Has there been a discussion on desktop app development with the SDK? Same the desktop app design guides?
<timp> bzoltan: compiling on the device is not too bad for me. Devices are fast nowadays :)
<bzoltan> timp: the issue is not the performance. The showstopper is the RO image what does not like apt-get installing the build deps
<aquarius> QUESTION which I think has likely been asked already, but I'm not sure. If I write an app for the App Showdown, should I look at distributing it *as* a click package? This question has two components: will the click package stuff be available in time, and can people on a desktop install a click package?
<cjwatson> I don't expect converged click packages to be working by 13.10
<timp> CheeseBurg: it is possible already to develop desktop apps with the SDK, although the user interface components are more optimized for touch
<aquarius> cjwatson, that's what I thought...
<cjwatson> You can do it but it requires some hacking
<aquarius> which leads to another QUESTION, which is: how should App Showdown apps *be* given to people? debs? bzr branches? :)
<CheeseBurg> timp: I know but I was wondering more about the desktop specific focus. I just wanted a timeline.
<cjwatson> (to clarify: there aren't *that* many blockers, but there's only one of me ...)
<popey> aquarius: deb for desktop, click for touch?
<popey> (qtcreator can create both)
<aquarius> popey, I am worried about making a click package when I don't *have* a Touch implementation to test it on, you see
<popey> aquarius: i hereby volunteer to test your app
<popey> or come to my house and test it here
<popey> you pay mileage
<aquarius> well, once I win the competition I'll have a nexus 4, of course. ;-)
<popey> get you
<aquarius> (not all that likely tbh :))
<popey> of course not, I'm going to win with my as-yet unwritten app
<aquarius> mhall119, my app's pure QML. No C++ for me. Ever. :)
<bzoltan>  aquarius:  that is the way to go
<wellsb> At what point should we ask for this extra help developing click packages for compiled packages?
<aquarius> ooh, mhall119 says that the command line click tools will work on the desktop. cjwatson, if that's not the case you might wanna mention it ;)
<cjwatson> wellsb: the next two sessions will be relevant
<cjwatson> aquarius: that is correct
<aquarius> cjwatson, oh! cool. So I can just distribute as a click package and say "to install on desktop Ubuntu, do: apt-get install clickthings; click install app.click"?
<wellsb> Excellent
<popey> aquarius: send me a usb stick wrapped in a Â£50 note and I'll test the app for you
<cjwatson> aquarius: Well, no.  "click build" is fine; but blockers for installing include (a) living in a different packagekit vs. aptdaemon world (b) the application lifecycle stuff almost certainly isn't in place to start the app properly
<cjwatson> aquarius: You can certainly hack things up to install it, but I suspect it will not quite run properly
<cjwatson> aquarius: It'll be *nearly* there, and it's worth somebody having a go, sure
<dpm> wellsb, you can find us on #ubuntu-app-devel and ask there once you're app is ready to be packaged
<aquarius> that sounds rather like if I want to enter a showdown app I need to distribute it twice? Once as click for phones, and once some other way so desktop people can use it? (I'm fine with this being the case, I just want to know if it's the case :))
<cjwatson> wellsb: (by which I mean http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21954/community-1308-qml-extensions/ and http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21908/foundations-1308-arch-specific-click-pkgs/)
<aquarius> I am trying to avoid debs because I don't properly understand them :)
<cjwatson> I think for 13.10 you should assume that that is the case; if we can do better, bonus
<cjwatson> But I suspect convergence will not be quite there enough to do much better for 13.10
<aquarius> ok, cool. dpm, mhall119, it might be a good idea to write a blog post or something about how to distribute your app showdown app so that desktop people can play it?
<CheeseBurg> Will there be an app showdown in the future (far or near) where developers can submit closed source stuff for a price. I know this showdown is for testing new app uploading features but what about future ones.
<aquarius> (as well as "submit a click package to the app store", of course.)
<aquarius> click packages should support you bundling a binary, surely? (It's just the same as bundling a library.)
<justforkicks> David the next time you get a good idea can you get a person to turn on that light above your head j/k ?  it would be funny
<cjwatson> aquarius: Yes, modulo layout of fat packages
<cjwatson> aquarius: But worst case a script at the top level that detects architecture and dispatches to the right one
<aquarius> cjwatson, yeah, I'm handwaving architecture stuff, but yeah
<dpm> justforkicks, lol, absolutely! :)
<CheeseBurg> Will the minimum price for apps be decreased in the store, just curious? Also there should be session at the next UDS for app store stuff specifically.
<aquarius> potential apparmor problem: apparmor is working on the name of the executable, right? So if my apparmor profile is for "qmlscene /opt/click/mypkg/whatever.qml" and that QML file execs /opt/click/mypkg/somebinary, will somebinary be restricted by apparmor?
<jdstrand> aquarius: apparmor can work in that manner, but that is not how we are performing attachment
<aquarius> also I am not sure how the whole "suspend this app" stuff works if you exec another binary.
<aquarius> jdstrand, oh, cool, I didn't realise you were here ;) Clearly you already understand this stuff :)
<jdstrand> aquarius: we are creating a named profile, and then changing profile using either upstart apparmor integratin or aa-exec
<jdstrand> aquarius: it is a technique similar to what we've don't with libvirt and qemu for years
<jdstrand> aquarius: fork, change profile, exec (essentially)
<jdstrand> aquarius: I am ubiquitous :)
<aquarius> jdstrand, so if an apparmored executable execs another binary, that other binary is still confined by the same profile? (i.e., it is confined, and it has the same allowances as the parent rather than having no profile and thus being completely confined with no permissions)?
<CheeseBurg> What about subscription purchases?
<CheeseBurg> Like magazines on Android
<jdstrand> aquarius: apps are generally not allowed to execute other applications. they are allowed to exec code in there install directory and XDG_DATA_HOME/<app dir>. we use 'ix' permissions in apparmor which means the child will inherit th epermissions set of the parent
<jdstrand> s/in there/in their/
<aquarius> jdstrand, ah, that's cool. This question is in the context of a click package shipping a QML app which execs another binary that's shipped inside the click pacakge, not about a package execing something random from elsewhere, so what you're describing is perfect.
<jdstrand> eg, so an app can ship a helper and execute it with the same permissions as the parent
<aquarius> perfect, that's precisely what popey was asking about :)
<jdstrand> right, yes, that is allowed
<jdstrand> hey, I thought popey asked me that the other day and I answered :P
<popey> â»
<popey> so my qml app can call my c++ wrapper to call cowsay?
<aquarius> I'd still like to hear what happens in the app suspender for chlid processes; does it suspend a whole process group?
<jdstrand> popey: your question was certainly for the benefit of the group :)
<CheeseBurg> You guys need App Store discussions badly lol.
<popey> and I ship 3 binary versions of cowsay for x86, x86_64 and armhf
<popey> ?
<jdstrand> aquarius: that is a good question that I brought up on a mailing list recent (ubuntu-phone?)
<aquarius> popey, I suspect that instead of a C++ wrapper, you'd write a C++ QML plugin which just execs any named binary -- that way, it can be reused by everyone.
<wellsb> Is pure qml somehow preferred over c++/qt/qml?  Performance-wise or otherwise.  My app has just one small component that is c++, but I could probably work around to get that in pure qml.  I just wanted to have the c++ backend to potentially extend functionality in the future.
<aquarius> popey, actually, that sounds like the sort of thing that bzoltan could usefully add to the SDK -- a simple QML plugin that shells out.
<popey> I agree
<popey> I want to make a gui frontend to a cli app
<aquarius> bzoltan, suggestion for you ^^ ;-)
<bzoltan>  aquarius:  +1
<popey> and it seems needlessly complex
<dpm> any more questions on IRC?
<aquarius> dpm, wellsb had a question about using pure QML apps and whether it's the best idea (which it is :))
<wellsb> mhall119: see above
<popey> thanks mhall119 dpm bzoltan
<dpm> \o/
<bzoltan> thanks guys
<dpm> thanks popey
<dpm> and everyone on IRC
<bzoltan> we miss you aquarius
<aquarius> thank you, chaps
<aquarius> bzoltan, I'm still sort of around :)
<bzoltan> aquarius: as we see :)
<aquarius> bzoltan, hey, I'm community now, I'm allowed to ask challenging questions ;)
<CheeseBurg> later
<bzoltan> aquarius: not as if you were afraid before :D
<aquarius> CheeseBurg, interesting set of questions about the app store
<wellsb> So there's no appreciable performance or resource hit by using c++?  It's just easier to package qml?  I just think having the c++ backend opens doors for future development
<aquarius> bzoltan, true enough :)
<aquarius> wellsb, c++ will likely be faster than doing processing in pure QML, although QML is highly optimised for the stuff it's good at (moving stuff around on the screen, particle systems, being declarative). However, C++ stuff is quite a lot more annoying to package, compile, and distribute.
<wellsb> Or is the recommendation to use pure qml if possible, and if extended functionality is needed, add the c++ backend and worry about multi-arch compilation at that point
<aquarius> I would say that the recommendation is to use pure QML, and if you find something that either cannot be done from QML or you notice serious performance problems (which I never have), then look at writing a minimal QML plugin in C++ to do that bit of work in C++ and then expose it to QML.
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Refresh the QtCreator welcome screen and tabs | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21916/appdev-1308-qtcreator-welcome-screen-refresh/
<aquarius> hey! isn't this meant to be HTML% stuff?
<aquarius> html5
<popey> yes
<bzoltan> the udsbot was missing the reorg
<popey> silly bot needs to press F5
<alex-abreu> popey, must be lost in the backlog ... :)
<karni> Will this be "HTML5 Developer Offering"? (possible channel topic mismatch)
<karni> It looks to me like the HTML5 session has been moved to this slot.
<alex-abreu> karni, yes
<karni> alex-abreu: Hi! And thanks
<alex-abreu> karni, and you are welcome to join :)
<karni> alex-abreu: Thank you. I'll join once I have something interesting to say :)
<alex-abreu> karni, you probably do from the user's perspective
<karni> alex-abreu: I've mostly provided the feedback in written form. I'm also aware Qt has a number of fixes in place, but had little time verifying that. But I'm here, looking forward to the session :)
<karni> (also, some bugs filed, as you may have seen)
<alex-abreu> url for the hg https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/26872982614b8314797a2178ae49b1f49232d30f?authuser=1&hl=en
<karni> thank you
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | HTML5 Developer Offering | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21965/appdev-1308-html5-offering/
<aquarius> cool, now the bot knows, clearly :0
<karni> :)
<aquarius> video not started yet?
<karni> not here yet ("Starting soon")
<aquarius> aha, video starts
<karni> You're live
<aquarius> ya, we can see you mhall119
<karni> aquarius: That's the lag :)
<karni> It's not LiveÂ® ;D
<pmcgowan> yes
<mhall119> daker is our awesome community dev :)
<karni> Minor echo audible
<karni> Sounds good now
<daker> there is some seconds of lag
<KeanuTheOne> The Grid Unit in Cordova Ubuntu is possible? Via new Cordova plugin?
<karni> Re: tabs, you can flesh it out with a few lines of JS until it's fully implemented. Other components looked pretty good to me.
<karni> (by flesh out I mean, you need to change active tab style and tab content manually)
<karni> Non-Ubuntu specific cordova spec, for those interested http://cordova.apache.org/docs/en/2.8.0/index.html
<karni> I mean API docs :)
<aquarius> that's a really good question, KeanuTheOne -- alex-abreu, making window.Unity.units.gu() available would be nice. :) Better still would be being able to use units.gu in CSS, but vw/vh/vmin should cover that well enough, I think.
<alex-abreu> aquarius, KeanuTheOne it will be discussed later
<aquarius> my QUESTION: we not only need documentation of the Ubuntu-specific APIs, but also what the web engine supports. MDN shows how much documentation you need for a browser; I don't think the Ubuntu Browser (and the webapp container) is not documented like that at all, so we don't know which web things it supports. (Does it do vw/vh? WebGL? WebRT? CSS 3 transitions? 3d transitions? :))
<aquarius> working with caniuse.com would be a brilliant way to do this
<aquarius> it'd help expose the Ubuntu Touch browser to more people, and caniuse documents almost everything you might want to check, and fyrd who runs it is a good guy who would probably love to get a bit paid for helping :)
<pmcgowan> qtwebkit capabilities should be documented at qt-project.org
<pmcgowan> not that I can find them right now
<aquarius> pmcgowan, they should be, but they are not. :)
<aquarius> pmcgowan, not in any sensible way. Look at MDN, at the Chrome docs, at the IE docs, at Apple's docs. That's the level of documentation needed for a browser...
<pmcgowan> aquarius, agree, just wishing to leverage our upstream more
<pmcgowan> may be better with Oxide
<aquarius> pmcgowan, yeah. They presumably don't have the resources.
<aquarius> I thought Oxide was only for Canonical-supported webapps? I didn't think third-party apps got to use it?
<daker> aquarius: i don't think so
<KeanuTheOne> (1) Few comments about Cordova&Grid Unit ---> http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/08/22/ubuntu-in-a-nutshell-the-ubuntu-sdk-and-developer-story
<KeanuTheOne> (2) [Ubuntu HTML5 Theme] Why the "Ubuntu Shape" is based on images, not on CSS3?
<mhall119> KeanuTheOne: is (1) a question?
<KeanuTheOne> On Jono page I find few interesting comments.
<aquarius> KeanuTheOne, the Ubuntu shape isn't supported by CSS3 -- its curve is unique to Ubuntu and can't be done in CSS with border-radius, I don't believe. It could, I suppose, be done with border-image, but that's still images.
<daker> KeanuTheOne: the Ubuntu Shape is somehow "impossible" to do in CSS3 AFAIK, but if you can do it that would be awesome
<daker> mhall119: i was thinking about that, i'll do that
<aquarius> As a data point, the reason I have not given any decent feedback on web apps stuff (other than that which I've sent to mhall119 etc) is that there is so little documentation that I don't know where to get started :( Google links to developer.ubuntu.com/webapps/ which doesn't even exist any more :( The webapps example on the page explains how to write a webapps script but doesn't explain what to do with
<aquarius> that script once you've written it.
<karni> lp:~karni/+junk/todo-html5 lp:~karni/+junk/todo-qt
<aquarius> I did speak to alex-abreu a while back about how I'm happy to write blog posts about how to write a web app script and install it in my home folder once he tells me how to do that ;-)
 * karni occasionally loses G+ stream
<karni> alex-abreu: ah thanks
<karni> I provided an example of HTML5 (ant Qt counterpart) for anyone interested. Really simple app, just to explore the SDK.
<aquarius> This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think that documenting the existing HTML app story really well is more important than doing further development on it. :(
<aquarius> mhall119, vw and vh will probably be fine instead of grid units, at least initially.
<karni> aquarius: I feel you. One of crucial points of my feedback was just that, we need more docs, to help people ramp up on how to do it.
<pmcgowan> karni, aquarius happy to get contributions
<aquarius> pmcgowan, I've already offered to write stuff up, but I don't actually know what's done yet, and alex-abreu doesn't have time to chat to me about it :)
<karni> pmcgowan: I know we're all swamped. In my case, sadly I've been reassigned to a very different project as soon as I provided the feedback. But I do hope my feedback (two e-mails, a number of bugs filed) will help the SDK team in general to prioritise tasks with end user in mind.
<pmcgowan> karni, much appreciated
<karni> pmcgowan: Always happy to help!
<aquarius> pmcgowan, so I can't document things because I don't know where to get started! chicken, egg, egg, chicken. :)
<karni> aquarius: I found looking at ubuntu-html5-theme helpful (although I know "documentation by code" might not be ideal), it gave me a start point.
<daker> mhall119: sure
<mhall119> thanks daker
<aquarius> pmcgowan, if I have certain basic knowledge (how do I install a webapp script without being root; which unity web apis are available on 13.04, 13.10; where's the best place to get the latest code; how much of the CSS and JavaScript will be bundled with the platform and how much shoudl I include in my project; how do I test my web app on an Ubuntu desktop (loading it in the Ubuntu Browser)), then I am happy
<aquarius>  to write a series of blog posts on building an HTML5 web app for Ubuntu Touch.
<daker> aquarius: ping me later then i'll show you how to do that
<aquarius> daker, ah, cool, you know how? sweet.
<karni> me? ;)
<karni> the a)b)c) yeah
<sethj> karni, might want to name yourself on the pad ;)
<karni> sorry
<sethj> I mean, name your color
<karni> done
<aquarius> karni, where's the html5 theme these days?
<daker> aquarius: yes
<karni> aquarius: /usr/share/ubuntu-html5-theme
<aquarius> karni, !! are there examples of how to use it?
<karni> aquarius: only QR Code scanner and the dead simple todo that I posted are. No, not there.
<alex-abreu> aquarius, there is a ubuntu-html5-theme-examples package
<karni> aquarius: I just found it useful to know what is available, and know what I should write in plain HTML/JS VS using a theme component
<karni> alex-abreu: uh! oh! \o/
<aquarius> woah examples.
<alex-abreu> aquarius, yeah ! :)
 * aquarius installs the examples package. Nice one alex-abreu ;)
 * karni shoots himself in the knee for not knowing that!
<karni> alex-abreu: Not sure I know where the examples package would install :'(
<karni> ah! /use/share/ubuntu-html5-theme/0.1/examples
<aquarius> that's what dpkg --listfiles ubuntu-html5-theme-examples is for ;)
<karni> aquarius: That's why you were my mentor haha ;D
<KeanuTheOne> When will WebGL be supported on Cordova Ubuntu? Ubuntu Touch 13.10 (QtWebkit/Qt5.1)?
<karni> aquarius: I'm embarassed I didn't know that command ;)
<aquarius> mhall119, I don't want to be offensive here, but "a cat and mouse game of chasing every API out there" is what you signed up for when you decided to write a custom browser. ;-)
<pmcgowan> not sure, need to check on webgl
<pmcgowan> yes WebM will come with new video stack I am told
<alex-abreu> pmcgowan, thx for the precisions
<alex-abreu> karni, in /usr/share/ubuntu-html5-theme/examples ...
<alex-abreu> karni, we need some desktop files for it
<alex-abreu> for them
<karni> alex-abreu: Good idea :)
<alex-abreu> yeah
<daker> or PhantomJS/SlimerJS
<karni> Thank you guys
<alex-abreu> thanks!
<pmcgowan> thanks
<daker> o/
<aquarius> thank you, chaps
<rvr> Thanks everyone for attending
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Testing with the ubuntu sdk | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21838/appdev-1308-quality-testing-sdk/
<balloons_uds> whomever wants to be in video discussion; https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/1c7b1dc222f0af7298b58381248e92af19007788?authuser=1&hl=en
<Letozaf_> balloons, I think videos are best :)
<veebers> balloons_uds: will the results of the tutorials be available after the fact? i.e. videos or results in a blog post?
<balloons_uds> http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/tutorials/quality/how-to-write-autopilot-tests/
<veebers> i.e. if someone can't make the tutorial at the time
<veebers> balloons_uds: ah nice, cheers
<fcole90---> Hello everybody =)
<balloons_uds> hello :-)
<mzanetti> balloons_uds: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity8/trunk/view/head:/tests/qmltests/utils/Unity/Test/tst_UnityTest.qml
<mzanetti> balloons_uds: sorry.. messed up
<mzanetti> balloons_uds: this is actually the tests for that helpers
<balloons_uds> ahh
<mzanetti> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity8/trunk/view/head:/tests/utils/modules/Unity/Test/UnityTestCase.qml
<mzanetti> balloons_uds: ^
<veebers> What sort of functionality would be available in the Base testcase?
<veebers> elopio: sure, sounds good. Just getting an idea of what's expected :-)
<veebers> elopio: that sounds like logging required from the QML level?
<veebers> elopio: sure, how would the emulator for instance tell if the thing opened as expected?
<veebers> elopio: other than having to introspect further etc.
<veebers> elopio: perhaps I miss-understood the logging requirements
<veebers> elopio: sure makes sense
<balloons_uds> ty everyone
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Refresh the QtCreator welcome screen and tabs | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21916/appdev-1308-qtcreator-welcome-screen-refresh/
<mhall119> bzoltan: QtCreator session hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/eba45da2e2c7eb637c963e77cdff104e033812c8?authuser=1&hl=en
<mhall119> ^^ anybody else who wants to talk about the QtCreator welcome screen and plugins can join too
<zyga> hi
<zyga> there's a pretty big delay I think
<zyga> but it's live
<zyga> and it works
<zyga> so get rolling
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/eba45da2e2c7eb637c963e77cdff104e033812c8?authuser=1&hl=en
<zyga> I cannot join, I have some background noise over here
<zyga> but I'm interested in seeing how one can jump into app development on ubuntu with html5
<daker> zyga: i guess the html5 was 3 hours ago
<daker> session*
<zyga> huh?
<zyga> ohhhh
<zyga> yeah
<mhall119> zyga: yeah sorry, we had to move stuff around
<zyga> schedule was out of date
<daker> zyga: :)
<daker> zyga: you can find the record here http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21965/appdev-1308-html5-offering/
<zyga> thanks!
<CheeseBurg> Is JuJu development in Qt Creator as well?
<CheeseBurg> The tools section under resources on developer.ubuntu.com needs to be updated, it still shows Quickly
<bzoltan> https://launchpad.net/qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu
<CheeseBurg> When you talk about openGL template, are you expecting game development to happen in Qt Creator?
<CheeseBurg> Just curious
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
<wonderfulWidgets> because it is all qwidgets ->declaritive (just the welcomescreen) is a good idea to have TabStacks ? -> WebViews  ?
<wonderfulWidgets> like have the mainwidget then have tabs and in the tab's have homepage and irc and core apps ect
<wonderfulWidgets> like a metatab
<wonderfulWidgets> or is the idea to have a bunch of buttons on the left ?
