#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-25
<carstenh> hi, how do I escape ^ in the ubuntu-wiki?
<robitaille> hi carstenh...just replied to you in ubuntu-devel :)
<carstenh> :)
<robitaille> the problem  carstenh had was with a line in the wiki  with two ^ characters; when  moin sees than, then anything between the two ^ is to be superscripted.  Is there any way to avoid that?
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> venda: hey long time no see
<Burgundavia> salut
<thechitowncubs> Hello all
<jsgotangco> salut
<Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, if you want to jump right in, the wiki always needs work
<jsgotangco> nice nick
<thechitowncubs> I'd love to help, what pages need assistance
<Burgundavia> WikiToDo lists some
<Burgundavia> pretty much anything needs work
<thechitowncubs> jsgotangco: was that nick remark directed at me?
<Burgundavia> AudioCDBurning is a good example of a simple, well formatted page
<jsgotangco> thechitowncubs: aye
<thechitowncubs> Hehe, thanks
<thechitowncubs> I'm not very experienced in wiki editing, i'll take a look at the good pages and take off from there
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDBurning
<thechitowncubs> that page doesn't exist im afraid
<Burgundavia> s/Burning/Creation
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnLambrechts
<thechitowncubs> I see that the launchpad is coming together, it looks good.
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation (added NewUserMultimedia link)
<Burgundavia> the NewUser stuff is depreceated
<thechitowncubs> what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> we are merging that information into existing articles
<thechitowncubs> Should I remove change?
<thechitowncubs> It is a good article, thought it was worth noting.
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> better to merge the data from NewUserMultimedia into the various existing articles
<Burgundavia> maybe split the screenshots out
<thechitowncubs> I'll see what I can do
<Burgundavia> cheers
<thechitowncubs> I thought the screenshots were a nice touch
<Burgundavia> they are
<Burgundavia> maybe create a MultimediaApplications page?
<thechitowncubs> Alright cool
<robitaille> ealier tonight I did a search on the wiki for "test" and "sandbox", and found a few pages to delete.  So much cleaning still to do....
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> still need to go through the stuff that has not been touched since the autoimport
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BadContent  is that some sort of moin filtering thing?
<robitaille> and is there a way to easily search for these pre-autoimport pages?
<Burgundavia> I suspect so
<Burgundavia> robitaille, look at the 90 day recentchanges
<Burgundavia> the very bottom day is the autoimport
<Burgundavia> the adsl-stuff
<robitaille> thanks.
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTips   delete?  mostly (all?) zwiki stuff
<jsgotangco> evil zwiki
<Burgundavia> delete all
<robitaille> it seems part of this group of pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiHome
<Burgundavia> shall we create a CategoryArchive or CategoryHistorical for the old developer stuff?
<robitaille> are you going to put some of the old spec and bof proposals in there?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> the HoaryReleaseSchedule
<Burgundavia> and old meeting notes
<robitaille> some I already labelled "UbnutuConferences" but they should probably be in an archive section.
<Burgundavia> they can be both
<Burgundavia> pages can have multiple categories
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
<thechitowncubs> sorry
<thechitowncubs> wrong paste
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> clean off anything that is not a multimedia application
<Burgundavia> everything above "common multimedia ..."
<Burgundavia> and make a link to AddingRepositoriesHowto and RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> so Archive or Historical ?
<robitaille> I would  go for Archive
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> done
<robitaille> I'm going for the night... see you tomorrow.
<thechitowncubs> Page updated.
<thechitowncubs> Burgundavia: What do you think so I know for further edits
<Burgundavia> any idea what language this is? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PouzivatelskaPrirucka
<Burgundavia> need to seperate out default for extra
<thechitowncubs> stumped me
<Burgundavia> and make it clear what RestrictedFormats is good for
<thechitowncubs> 10-4
<Burgundavia> cheers
<Burgundavia> and make NewUserMultimedia nothing but links
<thechitowncubs> links to?
<Burgundavia> relevant for each section
<Burgundavia> the screenshots section becomes a link to Multimedia, etc.
<thechitowncubs> should Sound Juicer and Sound Recorder be considered multimedia applications?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and totem
<Burgundavia> and muine
<Burgundavia> or beep-media-player
<thechitowncubs> 10-4
<Burgundavia> but don't add new screenshots
<Burgundavia> keep this page? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ListiQuette
<thechitowncubs> I'll add new screenshots for programs not within ubuntu, and remove screenshots that ubuntu already has by default
<thechitowncubs> that seems logical
<Burgundavia> don't remove any screenshots
<Burgundavia> as non-ubuntu users might look at the page
<thechitowncubs> so why wouldn't i add new screenshots for the other multimedia applications
<thechitowncubs> i'm not seeing the logic
<Burgundavia> not worth the effort
<Burgundavia> as the default theme is likely to change
<thechitowncubs> Already been done :)
<thechitowncubs> I'll see how it looks and change accordingly
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> ideally screenshots should have one canonical source
<Burgundavia> hopefully launchpad can provide that
<Burgundavia> as we use it in our Quick Guide as well
<thechitowncubs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> you didn't use the default them
<Burgundavia> that is fine, as they are likelly to change
<Burgundavia> I think Amarok is default for Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> but otherwise nice work
<Burgundavia> and SJ can play cds in Breezy
<jsgotangco> hey that is nice
<thechitowncubs> Glad to be a part of ubuntu :(
<Burgundavia> we need something like in launchpad
<thechitowncubs> :)
<thechitowncubs> I will talk you guys tomorrow I hope
<Burgundavia> cheers, and thanks for the good work
<jsgotangco> WOW a TOC on Moin
<Burgundavia> UserDocumentation has it as well
<jsgotangco> is it manually created (i bet)
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> arrghh
<Burgundavia> well, a table wrapping the TOC
<jsgotangco> moin tables are easy to do though compared to mediawiki imo
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> {| starts a table
<Burgundavia> |} ends one
<Burgundavia> you have a lot more control with mediawiki tables
<Burgundavia> and they look cleaner
<jsgotangco> UserDocumentation looks nice
<Burgundavia> it does
<Burgundavia> we just need more content behind it
<Burgundavia> I have been adding stuff to the category
<Burgundavia> so we can clean it up and add it UD
<Burgundavia> gnome-app-install looks like it is coming along
<jsgotangco> see you later i got an appointment tonight
<jsgotangco> see you guys later
<|rockinnerd|> hey
<|rockinnerd|> all
<mdke> hello
<thechitowncubs> hello
<jjesse> hello
<jjesse> big cubs fan?
<thechitowncubs> ya ya
<jjesse> my boss is a huge fan, she has season tickets even though she works/lives in west michigan
<thechitowncubs> tell her if she can't make it to a game, i'll use the tix
<thechitowncubs> :)
<jjesse> grin i doubt that :) i think her son is in chicago and gets the ticks if she can't 
<thechitowncubs> shes lucky
<thechitowncubs> what do you do for a living?
<jjesse> network admin for a bank
<thechitowncubs> what OS?
<jjesse> windows for servers and desktop
<jjesse> an as/400 for bank processing and working on adding linux as i can
<thechitowncubs> hehe
<thechitowncubs> are you working on the wiki right now?
<jjesse> don't work a lot of the wiki, i work on the docbook side of things
<jjesse> need to upload my changes actually for the kdeuserguide
<thechitowncubs> sounds good
<jjesse> grin and u?
<thechitowncubs> I just started doing doc work
<thechitowncubs> i'm starting by helping out on the wiki
<jjesse> cool welcome to the group :)
<thechitowncubs> thanks, glad to be hear
<thechitowncubs> here*
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-26
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  it seems that mediawiki will be possibly packaged in Edunbutu
<robitaille> there was a discussion about it earlier in ubuntu-devel
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> ogra is making/finding packages
* mdke nods
<mdke> its essential for edubuntu
<robitaille> but why mediawiki in that educational context?  is it a technical issue?
<mdke> mark likes the idea of using wikis to prepare lessons and for children to take their notes
<mdke> i think its a pretty cool idea
<robitaille> I was under the impression that moin was easier to install to its php-less approach
<mdke> robitaille, quite right. In fact there is a moin-desktop which is just a zip file, unzip and you're away, a personal wiki :)
<mdke> it AMAZING
<mdke> it/it's
<mdke> robitaille, but mediawiki is the best
<robitaille> have you ever played with tiddlywiki?  it's a personal wiki in one html file
<mdke> wow
<mdke> i'm gonna ping ogra about moin-desktop, just make him aware of it
<robitaille> I use tiddly-wiki has a note-taking "application" at work
<Burgundavia> mediawiki is far nicer to show content
<Burgundavia> as you have play with css, etc.
<robitaille> the big push at work these days is to have a wiki...any wiki...to help with our work.  Hopefully it will happen soon
<Burgundavia> the only thing moin is better for in my opinion is that it can push more requests/second
<Burgundavia> in the order of 10x more
<mdke> moin has plenty of scope for css
<mdke> even individual users can specify their own css
<mdke> and css works in the pages afaik
<Burgundavia> I find the markup in mediawiki to be more sane and more extensible
<mdke> but yeah mediawiki is accepted as being better
<mdke> its just you need to install more stuff, including php, and that makes a thin client setup a bit heavy IMHO
<Burgundavia> all that would be setup on the server
<mdke> sure i know, but the server might have to handle 20 thin clients
<mdke> the less load, the better
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> mediawiki currently lacks developers, to be honest
<Burgundavia> more exposure will help it find more
<mdke> i've been trying to hack up the moin code to get the italian team's header on their wiki
<mdke> its painful
<mdke> instead of using html, it's in a python script that is converted to html by the engine
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> and what mediawiki calls templates are entirely too useful
<Burgundavia> I have found no easy way in Moin
* mdke shrugs
<Burgundavia> dude, I have 10,000 edits on WP. I pretty much know all its annoying quirks
<Burgundavia> like the page duplicating one
<Burgundavia> that is quite annoying
<mdke> i wasn't challenging your knowledge
<mdke> i was just saying i didn't know the way in Moin either
<Burgundavia> I sure there is a way, it is just not as simple
<Burgundavia> moin *may* have more power, but they haven't made the common stuff simple
<mdke> agreed
<mdke> but for the purposes of edubuntu, it might be an option worth considering, especially if kids are used to the ubuntu wiki
<Burgundavia> I would argue that more kids have seen wikipedia
<mdke> sure
<mdke> there is a mediawiki-like theme for moin ;)
<Burgundavia> almost nobody changes the default
<mdke> fedora uses moin too
<robitaille> And how many kids have edited in ubuntu-wiki or wikipedia?  at the end, what matters is how you setup the wiki on your end, not how looks like in some remote sites that may or may not have been heavily customized.
<mdke> Burgundavia, the default can be a custom one
<mdke> like on ours (ubuntu)
<mdke> anyway, they can make the decision, I've msg'ed ogra
<Burgundavia> I don't find CamelCase intutive and I think most kids/teahcers would also find that same thing
<mdke> i only want to make him aware of it, I'm not bothered about the decision
<mdke> camelcase is not necessary in moin
<Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12837
<mdke> consider it an extra
<Burgundavia> see my previous comment about default and not-changing them
<mdke> ?
<mdke> that bug reported started a thread on the mailing list
<mdke> he is a good guy
<mdke> he's mailed jerome in the past with some nice ideas
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> bbl
<cafuego> AreWeTalkingAboutJavaFunctions?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> this is cool
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1006
<Burgundavia> thinking it should be something default for gnome
<mdke> looks nice
<mdke> anyone home?
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=50591
<Burgundavia> leaving now, sorry
<mdke> ok bye Burgundavia 
<mdke> nice spot on that thread
<mdke> oooh
<mdke> Burgundavia, erm... i've noticed you've deleted some wiki pages without removing links... this is _very_ bad
<mdke> an example is Accessibility
<mdke> you really really really should check all backlinks before renaming or deleting a page: this is essential otherwise there will be broken links all over the wiki. Check for backlinks by clicking on the page title
<mdke> morning jsgotangco 
<mdke> we have a linode server :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, still awake at this time?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> 4 am
<mdke> damn ;)
<mdke> jsgotangco, how are you?
<mdke> we have a server
<mdke> you pinging out again?
<jsgotangco> no im fine now
<jsgotangco> i'm down hommie
<jsgotangco> just editing some edubuntu draft docs
<jsgotangco> svn desperately needs love again
* mdke nods
<mdke> the ubuntu user guide is gonna need some serious lovin
<jsgotangco> what the hell happened its like a ghost town here lately
<mdke> seems ok to me
<mdke> svn commits come and go
<jsgotangco> no i mean on svn
<mdke> i guess mgalvin and rob^ are taking a rest :D
<jsgotangco> i guess a working X would also help
<jsgotangco> :P
<mdke> true
<mdke> i am still working in hoary
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> i think we'll need to profile edubuntu as well
<mdke> ??
<jsgotangco> since its going to have yelp and its basically ubuntu anyways
<jsgotangco> me and ogra talked about it
<mdke> profile it for what/
<mdke> hey there jiyuu0 
<jsgotangco> well i wouldn't want to rewrite some docs
<mdke> jsgotangco, which docs were you thinking of profiling it into?
<jsgotangco> we'll see...maybe i was rushing..
<mdke> surely edubuntu is not gonna be that similar to ubuntu
<mdke> given that it's for thin clients
<jsgotangco> i'll just grab a daily build when its working already
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> im gonna start reviewing docs later
<mdke> i have to get some sleep
<jsgotangco> i am getting worried and in 2 weeks it'll be august heh
<mdke> feel free to write a docteam front page for docteam.ubuntu.com :D
<mdke> otherwise maybe henrik will do it
<jsgotangco> i don't have access to it yet but i can dump html
<mdke> sure just sent it to the list if you do it
<mdke> you can use the css from ubuntu.com i guess, just something simple
<jsgotangco> then we'll just have to make a way to have jobs on our svn
<jsgotangco> and move it to that server
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> how did you do it with tseng's?
<jsgotangco> or is it manually triggered?
<mdke> building the docs?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> i've set it up already on the server :)
<jsgotangco> what server?
<mdke> just a cron job doing svn up and make targets
<mdke> docteam.ubuntu.com server
<jsgotangco> oh you mean d.u.c already has a working copy
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> wow so that means you already have root access?
<mdke> i haven't written to the list because i wanna test it
<mdke> well i recommended to henrik that we disable root
<jsgotangco> ok so its all su then
<mdke> the cronjobs are just run as a user
<mdke> but yeah i've set up sudo
<jsgotangco> so you just ssh to the d.u.c and do your stuff?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> well not d.u.c, the ip
<jsgotangco> are you using an account with sudo priv?
<mdke> the name isn't pointed there
<mdke> yes
<mdke> temporarily
<jsgotangco> hmmm apache should then be mapped to a local user as well
<jsgotangco> at least have the user public_html folder
<mdke> once we're sure it works, we'll get a normal sudo-less user doing it
<jsgotangco> an ordinary user would do for that
<mdke> yes, that's what I mean
<mdke> not sure public_html is needed
<jsgotangco> i've done setups on 5.04 as a server it doesn't really take that much of an effort especially with apache
<mdke> just an ordinary user making the docs and moving them to apache space
<jsgotangco> sure its needed if its a multi-user and if we like to have d.u.c/~foo stuff
<mdke> do we want ~foo stuff?
<mdke> its an idea
<mdke> for members you mean?
<jsgotangco> sure why not but it'll be an overhead for sure especially if its a lot
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> its got 57 MB of RAM dude
<jsgotangco> that'll mean all accounts will have /bin/bash/
<jsgotangco> awesome
<mdke> i'd suggest not adding anything unless its necessary
<jsgotangco> well let's just test one
<jsgotangco> no sudo priv
<jsgotangco> just ssh
<mdke> jsgotangco, my opinion is to only do things when there is a reason, right now I don't see a need for multiuser, but maybe in the future we can implement it
<mdke> obviously we can add some more users, but multiuser apache might add to the load
<mdke> anyway, i'll leave it to henrik
<jsgotangco> well if you don't do multiuser at least for one more, that means anyone who uploads on that will have sudo access
<mdke> jsgotangco, ???
<jsgotangco> sharing the same account
<mdke> jsgotangco, there is no uploading
<jsgotangco> ahhh i thought there was
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> how do you upload the frontpage then?
<mdke> i mean, there is uploading, but its not necessary for serving docs
<jsgotangco> right right
<mdke> jsgotangco, what we can do is set up a user on that box (e.g. ubuntu-doc) that will get the svn repo and build the docs there in its userspace, then move it to the apache directory
<mdke> that user would not have sudo privs
<jsgotangco> right
<mdke> ok 4.30
<mdke> sleep time
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> alright sweet nightmares
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, gah, oops
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burgundavia> oh god
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories
<Burgundavia> anybody remeber when I posted that top things #ubuntu users want?
<robitaille> difficult to forget...it created a long discussion after you posted that...especially because of your use of the word "crap" in that email :)
<Burgundavia> no, not that one
<Burgundavia> that one went to ubuntu-devel
<Burgundavia> found it any way
<Burgundavia> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002273.html
<Burgundavia> I believe the word was actually noise
<Burgundavia> Seeing as I have the time, I distilled a the breezy new feature thread
<Burgundavia> on this forum [1]  down to stuff that I didn't see on the UDU wiki.
<Burgundavia> *Most of the thread is total crack* Here is the useful stuff:
<Burgundavia> There, everything else on that forum is noise.
<Burgundavia> robitaille, what do you think of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideAddingRepositories
<robitaille> it's the kind of thing I would do myself on my machine...but I wouldn't recommend to a new user.
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> keep the page, but we need a big large blinking warning at the top with links to alternative methods
<Burgundavia> and the page just got created
<robitaille> and find out who the author is.
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen
<Burgundavia> he and I disagree on some things
<Burgundavia> I am going to raise it at the New User Network meeting ont he 22
<robitaille> is he part of the NUN thing?
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> I have to go...I'll be back in a few minutes
<Burgundavia> do we have a howto for installing .deb files?
<thechitowncubs> i just made one up "sudo dpkg -i "debfile""
<Burgundavia> right
<jsgotangco> froud: ping?
<thechitowncubs> i'm bored, any robot work needed?
<Burgundavia> want to check over my newly done page?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
<Burgundavia> need a working copy of firefox for one section in the above doc
<Burgundavia> under the .xpi section
<thechitowncubs> Filecompression page looks great
<Burgundavia> extend as necessary
<robitaille> hummm... "Warning: Installing programs from .debs can seriously damage your system".   I'm actually a lot concerned by this than people downloading some 3rd party applications (realplayer, ipodder, etc), and seeing them blindly running the install.sh script that comes with them.  THAT can trash your system.  At least a .deb usually follow some guidelines and files will not be overwritten unless forced.
<robitaille> s/a lot/alot less/
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> usually though
<Burgundavia> but that is not really the topic for that Page
<Burgundavia> s/Page/page
<Burgundavia> I just mentioned what risks there were
<robitaille> there are risk for quite a few things;  .xpi for firefox?  that can break your profile as well
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> my ff doesn't currently work
<Burgundavia> now it does
<robitaille> maybe mention that rar isn't free?  Also that rar section doesn't look right.  The 1st paragraph seems to be missing part of a sentence: "Non-password protected Rars can then be opened by right clicking on them and" 
<Burgundavia> ok
<HrdwrBoB> they can?
<robitaille> we need a good spell checker in moin..... just noticed a typo for multiverse ("mulitverse")
<robitaille> HrdwrBoB:  who can what? :)
<Burgundavia> I don't have a .rar on my system currently
<HrdwrBoB> robitaille: right click on a rar and open it with something
<Burgundavia> you should be able to 
<robitaille> there was a bug for a while about rar.  It must have been Warty.  I don't have any rar file either.
<Burgundavia> I usually have one, but I don't
<Burgundavia> grr
<robitaille> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8276   I think it is a  Warty AND Hoary bug, but not Breezy
<Burgundavia> there is also a 7zip bug as well
<Burgundavia> 2.10.2 should be in hoary
<Burgundavia> http://anakinou.com/gallery/artsy/relativity_lego_lg
<Burgundavia> random link, for fun
<Burgundavia> I need to make a wiki page so that p7zip can be pushed into main
<HrdwrBoB> robitaille: yep
<froud> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> froud: pretty busy lately eh?
<froud> hectic dude
<venda> too many things all at once
<venda> got your message
<venda> I now owe you a response
<jsgotangco> oh i have been busy as well so its ok
<jsgotangco> but ive started on doing svn stuff again :D
<venda> yes I saw
<jsgotangco> i've discovered im more productive if i do little bits and stuff instead of trying to do everything in one sitting
<venda> edubuntu
<venda> yes, small bits each day
<venda> they quickly amount to allot of work
<venda> jsgotangco: is edubuntu ready for a make system?
<jsgotangco> no no not yet
<jsgotangco> there's barely anything there yet
<venda> k, it would be nice if we could have it on preview
<jsgotangco> when the daily build is usable i will start doing chuncks
<jsgotangco> other than that, its as unusable as ubuntu itself
<venda> huh? what does than mean :-)
<jsgotangco> i mean breezy
<jsgotangco> heh
<venda> jsgotangco: edubuntu docs now valid and well-formed. Also made xmlindent to make it easier to read the xml
<jsgotangco> hmmm? ok there's really nothing in it really just some structure lifted from the templates you made before
<jsgotangco> thanks
<venda> k must go now. later
<silbs> hi folks
<silbs> is there an easy way to turn http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/userguide/C/ into a pdf file?
<thechitowncubs> I believe openoffice can do it
<thechitowncubs> oh
<thechitowncubs> except that is spread across different locations
<thechitowncubs> i'm not sure
<silbs> yes, that's the issue
<silbs> hi jsgotangco 
<silbs> I was just asking if  there an easy way to turn http://tseng2.ath.cx/~ubuntu-doc/userguide/C/ into a pdf file?
<jsgotangco> hey silbs
<silbs> do you know? I was wondering if it was possible to pull directly from the repository or something to do that
<jsgotangco> well its possible to create a pdf on the source with a script but i don't know how to do the script
<jsgotangco> we've done it on styleguide
<jsgotangco> i can look into it though
<jsgotangco> but yeah, any of the source files can be a pdf
<silbs> jsgotangco: if it's a hassle, don't bother. I sort of need it in the next 20 minutes or so, or not at all
<jsgotangco> let me check the make file if it has provisions for pdf
<silbs> well, actually I think having that script available might be a good thing in general, but I only have an immediate need for it. Not a priority otherwise
<Burgundavia> xmlto should do it
<jsgotangco> i dont have that let me grab it
<jsgotangco> yuck it needs passivetex and it wants me to get 30MB worth of archives
<rob^> anyone?
<jsgotangco> hey rob^ 
<rob^> hey jsgotangco 
<rob^> is there any way to make an xref tag work like an internal ulink tag? (ie make some text the link)
* rob^ got his commit account :)
<jsgotangco> whoa
<rob^> ?
<mdke> silbs, hiya
<mdke> i'm sure we can sort outa  pdf
<rob^> mmm... pdf
* mdke reads scrollback properly
<Burgundavia> anybody here done a windows/linux dual boot recently?
* mdke shakes his head happily
<Burgundavia> I need someone to cleanup WindowsDualBootHowto
<Burgundavia> as it is a mess
<mdke> Burgundavia, what happened with the new user guide repositories issue? I noticed the page has reappeared
<Burgundavia> not resolved
<Burgundavia> I am waiting for the meeting
<mdke> when is that?
<Burgundavia> 22
<Burgundavia> I tend to bang heads and take names
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> s/tend/intend
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> the tactful approach?
<jsgotangco> i dual boot at home
<mdke> i am willing to give it a go
<Burgundavia> of course
<rob^> I'm getting: svn: Commit failed
<Burgundavia> this MCP wants to have nothing to do with windows
<rob^> svn: Aborting commit: '/home/rob/Documents/ubuntu-doc/generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml' remains in conflict
<rob^> any ideas?
<mdke> conflict?
* jsgotangco loves dual boot systems a lot of people i know go 'wow' on that
<rob^> svn commit -m +"a few readability changes" faqguide.xml --non-interactive
<mdke> rob^, svn status might help, further than that I'm not sure what conflict means. It'll be in the docs tho
<rob^> C      faqguide.xml
<rob^> from svn status
<mdke> hmm
<rob^> i have a 2 .mine files also
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> froud will know :)
<rob^> i did an svn update before I started working on it.
<rob^> i have 4 .r.... files also
<mdke> whoa
<rob^> I can force it to end the conflict with svn resolve, but I dont know how that will work out
<rob^> ok, thats fixed
<rob^> i just used svn resolve and rm the offending files
<rob^> hmm
<Burgundavia> wow, blast from the past --> http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,11728,pg,1,00.asp
<rob^> now I'm just getting authorization failed
<mdke> rob^, :)
* rob^ thinks: umm, so I need to set up subversion somehow?
<rob^> I know I got an email to say its all good to go somewhere
<mdke> rob^, you put the right user@password in?
<rob^> in svn commit?
<jsgotangco> yarrgghh to many channels makes me want to curse erc
<jsgotangco> im switching to another client
<mdke> rob^, it should ask you for a user and password
<jsgotangco> is that svn work?
<jsgotangco> just use esvn :P
<rob^> hehe
* rob^ looks for dam email with password
<mdke> rob^, elmo's email will have an encrypted file attached, therein lies the password
<rob^> ah
* rob^ slaps head
<jsgotangco> head shoulders knees and toes
<rob^> kind of annoying that evolution doesn't decrypt the email for you
<rob^> but that all worked sweet
<rob^> yay
<jsgotangco> yeah i hate evo
<rob^> its a shame thunderbird keeps crashing for me :(
<jsgotangco> arrghh
<jsgotangco> this is silly i wanted to use xmlto and make a pdf and yet it wants me to download packages around 30mb
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> im almost done anyways
<rob^> xmlto or apt-get?
<jsgotangco> dependencies of passivetex
<rob^> ah
<rob^> what a pain
<jsgotangco> in which xmlto is looking for
<jsgotangco> yeah for a PDF
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> whoa i see a 'rob' on svn
<jsgotangco> hehe
* Burgundavia needs to get his commit access back
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> you've been saying that for months
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> ya ya
<jsgotangco> you can use mine if you want
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> patch and we'll apply for now
<Burgundavia> too much work
<Burgundavia> the wiki is easier to work on until I get it bac
<Burgundavia> k
<jsgotangco> mdke, how many hours of sleep did you get
<Burgundavia> 6, by my count
<jsgotangco> tsk not good
<mdke> i had to get up to watch the cricket
<Burgundavia> bloody sports
<Burgundavia> make you fit
* Burgundavia weighs 145 pounds
<mdke> how much is that in real weight?
<Burgundavia> about 60 kilos, I think
<mdke> woa
<Burgundavia> Canada is weird
<mdke> not much
<Burgundavia> kilometers for the road
<Burgundavia> but we use pounds for food and weight
<Burgundavia> and feet for height
<Burgundavia> 145 pounds = 65.7708937 kilograms
* Kinnison uses feet for walking... </baddumtish>
<jsgotangco> mdke, you mean the ashes?
<mdke> yes
* Burgundavia has never understood cricket
<jsgotangco> i don't understand cricket but i seem to know the events
<jsgotangco> more like people shouting
<jsgotangco> i prefer boxing
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia i heard same sex marriage in canada is already allowed
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> passed yesterday
<Burgundavia> I live in a truly great country
<Burgundavia> damn Spain beat us to number 3 though
* Kinnison grins
<Burgundavia> interesting how little debate the whole thing actually raised
<Burgundavia> despite the country being fairly split
<jsgotangco> whoa
<Burgundavia> I suspect that most simple don't care
* mdke nods
<mdke> is it civil marriage that has been allowed?
<Burgundavia> "how does my marriage affec the sanctity of mine" sort of thing
<jsgotangco> its surprising how spain has done it despite being one of the original bastions of christianity but then spain has evolved
<Burgundavia> and religous, if the church wants to
<mdke> ah so depends on the particular religion I guess
<Burgundavia> united church has already said yes
<Burgundavia> they have openly gay and female ministers
<jsgotangco> what is the predominant sect?
<Burgundavia> United
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burgundavia> protestant merged church
<Burgundavia> followed by Anglican and Catholic
<Burgundavia> but Canadians are seriously non-religous
<jsgotangco> aren't the frech catholics to begin with?
<Burgundavia> yes, but Quebec is one of the most secular parts of the country
<jsgotangco> "baptized but not practising"
<Burgundavia> the majority were only catholic because that was the dominant organization until the 60s
<jsgotangco> i got to read somewhere years before, that a catholic church in france had to close down because no one was going and it got sold to a guy who converted it to a trance club
<Burgundavia> rofl
<jsgotangco> i mean church spirals make good clubs
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> here at home, churches are jampacked on sundays but majority of people are not really religious to begin with
<rob^> wow, tv sucks tonght
<Burgundavia> rob^, where are you that it is the night?
<jsgotangco> AU
<rob^> yes
<Burgundavia> ah, crazy upside down people
<mdke> rob^, cricket fan?
<rob^> hehe
<mdke> get the cricket on the tv dude
<jsgotangco> i dont think cricket is that popular in AU compared to rugby
<rob^> mdke, I dont mind watching it at the pub, but not on prime time tv
<mdke> jsgotangco, everyone likes cricket in AU
<rob^> yes, they do
<jsgotangco> when i was in sydney, all we saw was rugby
<rob^> wife doesnt though
<rob^> and dont get me started on Harry Potter..
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> Half Blood Prince!
<rob^> also on tv tonight (live reading or some crap)
<mdke> lol
<jsgotangco> my wife bought that book
<mdke> stick the cricket on dude
<rob^> yeah, stuff the wife
<mdke> for us, its the most exciting ashes series for years
<rob^> mdke, pom?
<rob^> umm english :P
<mdke> yus
<jsgotangco> do people who watch cricket on the field also dress on their best sunday outfit? :D
* Burgundavia notices once again that this channel is complete OT
<rob^> yeah, you might be in for a chance for once :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, hey we're all friends here
* jsgotangco reads about cricket on wikipedia but still dont understand it
<rob^> haha
<Burgundavia> indeed
<rob^> nothing funner then watching yanks play criket and swing at the ball as if it was baseball
<jsgotangco> lol
<rob^> cricket ^
<jsgotangco> a louisvilee slugger looks way better than a cricket paddle that looks like it came from a frat
<mdke> only thing funnier is watching australia lose to bangladesh
<mdke> :)
<rob^> haha
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> that sucked
<jsgotangco> and how come when i see zimbabwe play, they are mostly caucasian
<Burgundavia> ZA is the same way
<rob^> weard as it is, there are caucasian people that live there
<mdke> the black guys are getting more involved in South Africa now
<mdke> slowly
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> i just find it weird though, but i haven't been to africa at all
<Burgundavia> ZA is beautiful
<Burgundavia> so screwed up and yet so prosperous
<jsgotangco> ahhh perfect capitalism scenario
* rob^ pictures Ubuntu logos on SA cricketers..
<Burgundavia> driving from the brand new cape town airport to downtown cape town
<Burgundavia> you go buy huge shanty towns
<Burgundavia> with guard towers and 30ft fences
<Burgundavia> s/buy/by
<jsgotangco> i still like the ghettos of the west coast
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> which west coast?
<jsgotangco> US
<Burgundavia> good thing I don't live there
<Burgundavia> but mdz does
<Burgundavia> we build drug smuggling tunnels here --> http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_tunnel20050720&ref=rss
<jsgotangco> "secret cross border tunnel"
<Burgundavia> ignore the security prattle
<Burgundavia> it is all about shifting pot south and harder stuff north
<jsgotangco> bleah they should all move to the netherlands
<Burgundavia> bc pot is better
<rob^> hey, I heard something today about Ubuntu being refered to as Linuxxx, how does one get all those wallpapers?
* Burgundavia slaps rob^ for being sick
<mdke> rob^, ubuntu-calendar
* rob^ is just wondering
<mdke> but it has been inactive for a few months
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> are there archives?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> if you mean by the nude models
<jsgotangco> not work safe
<rob^> thats ok, I'm not at work
<jsgotangco> rob^, ubuntu-calendar
<jsgotangco> and just get the archives
<rob^> yeah got it, what are the archives?
<jsgotangco> oh just search for it its just ubuntu-calendar-january, etc...
<jsgotangco> its not really a calendar to begin with 
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> does it just stick the wallpapers under the wallpaper chooser?
<jsgotangco> yeah
* rob^ checks it out
<jsgotangco> hmm hopefully those calendars are not downloadable in edubuntu...
<Burgundavia> they will be
<rob^> hehe hell yeah
<jsgotangco> yargghhh
<rob^> naughty little kiddies
<Burgundavia> assuming ubuntu-calender gets built for breezy
<rob^> hmm, no extra wallpapers are there
<rob^> i installed all the monthly packages
<jsgotangco> you sure i just tried it now
<jsgotangco> i already got the old april calendar
<jsgotangco> and downloading the others
<Burgundavia> cool mediawiki stuff --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_38th_Canadian_Parliament_and_same-sex_marriage
<Burgundavia> check out the numbers
<jsgotangco> it would be a riot of Parliament would marry themselves for starters
<rob^> there is four more, but they are all greeny-colored
<jsgotangco> hmm the liberal backbench and bloc quebecois favor them
<jsgotangco> hhe
<rob^> what directory does it install them to?
<jsgotangco> wow a very popular korean heartrob is in town
<jsgotangco> hmmm strange i don't have them pics either
<jsgotangco> hmmm is this firefox patch  equivalent to 1.05?
<Burgundavia> 1.0.6, I think
* jsgotangco checks on list
<Burgundavia> .6 was merely a fix for .5 borkage
<jsgotangco> so we really didnt get .5 at all
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> Breezy did
<jsgotangco> pitti is working so hard :)
<Burgundavia> yes
* rob^ finds about 13 wallpapers under /usr/share/backgrounds
* rob^ wonders what all the fuss is about
<rob^> they are all brown and stuff
* rob^ has better nudie ones from deviantart
<rob^> is that all of them? 13
<mdke> england is doing nicely in the cricket
<jsgotangco> screw crickent i want nude backgrounds
<rob^> ditto
<rob^> is there only 13 of them?
<jsgotangco> rob^, well they're official artwork to begin with
<jsgotangco> rob^, it kinda grinded to a halt after april
<rob^> yeah I noticed
<Burgundavia> I think it was only for the warty release
<rob^> jsgotangco, deviantart has heaps of good ones
<jsgotangco> wonder who's idea are these to begin with
<Burgundavia> sabdfl of course
<Burgundavia> http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/07/20/marriage.canada.ap/index.html
<Burgundavia> reading that, you would think that gay marriage was a big deal
<Burgundavia> when it wasn't
* jsgotangco remembers that gaybuntu thread on sounder...
<jsgotangco> gotta go good night
<mdke> night
<rob^> night
<rob^> same
<jasoncohen> hi
<Burgundavia> hey
<jasoncohen> i saw that the multimedia adding repositories page was simply removed 
<jasoncohen> i thought it was going to get integrated with the adding repositories page or left there with a link to adding repositories as it is currently
<jasoncohen> but it was just removed
<Burgundavia> the relevant things were merged into AddingRepos
<Burgundavia> what do you think was left out
<jasoncohen> how was it merged?
<Burgundavia> I looked at the page, took the useful ideas and editing Adding accordingly
<Burgundavia> if you think that existing docs have issues, then fix them, don't create duplicative stuff
<jasoncohen> what exactly did you change though? the closest thing to a merge is the breakmyubuntu page which is hardly a howto
<jasoncohen> it doesn't even give the lines that needed to be added to sources.list
<jasoncohen> why not leave it the way it is currently with the strong warning
<Burgundavia> manually editing sources.list is total crack
<Burgundavia> and we should not be promoting it
<jasoncohen> if it's the easiest method and a backup is made i dont' see the problem. anyways, they can always follow the adding repositories page like your link says. i even put up the screenshots to help users add w/ synaptic
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<jasoncohen> but for this particular purpose replacing the file is easiest
<Burgundavia> but you are claiming that your page is for new users
<Burgundavia> which is total crack
<jasoncohen> it is 
<Burgundavia> your page is for server installs
<jasoncohen> new users aren't necessary dumb users
<Burgundavia> new users use syanptic
<jasoncohen> they can follow a howto that uses gedit to edit
<jasoncohen> or terminal for a few commands
<jasoncohen> what server user would need/want backports?
<jasoncohen> it provides nothing server related
<Burgundavia> jasoncohen, WE ARE PROMOTING THE GUI
<jasoncohen> linux is about choice
<jasoncohen> you can promote what you want
<Burgundavia> the doc team is promoting the gui
<jasoncohen> i'm simply giving the easiest solution in my opinion
<Burgundavia> we run the wiki
<Burgundavia> I don't want to be an ass, but it sort of comes down to that
<jasoncohen> well, frankly you didn't merge anything
<jasoncohen> you just removed it
<Burgundavia> I have objection to a list of sources
<Burgundavia> just not as NewUserAnything
<jasoncohen> so, if i change it from newusers then you'll be fine?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jasoncohen> ok
<jasoncohen> i'll do that tonight\
<Burgundavia> to be honest, I want to kill the whole NewUsers thing
<jasoncohen> heh, i pretty much got that from your attitude
<Burgundavia> I don't think it is useful
<jasoncohen> you seem to want to control the documentation
<Burgundavia> no I don't
<Burgundavia> I want to promote best practices
<Burgundavia> as does the rest of the docteam
<Burgundavia> I am just the one taking action on it on the wiki right now
<jasoncohen> ok, well i was just providing what i saw as a needed service. if users could do it easily with adding repisotories they would have. they asked for a specific and easy to use howto and i've gotten no complaints from the howto. users don't seem to mind using a terminal if they have instructions
<Burgundavia> those on #ubuntu maybe
<jasoncohen> but i won't call it newusers- that's fine
<jasoncohen> i don't really care what it's called
<mdke> jasoncohen, perhaps you would put your excellent efforts towards improving the existing document
<mdke> it is important for us as docteam to identify any duplication of efforts, and try and resolve it
<jasoncohen> mdke, anything in mind?
<mdke> jasoncohen, there is no need to make two documents on the same subject, please work on the existing adding repositories page
<jasoncohen> i also don't reallyi get the "a grandmother isn't able to do this" argument for adding hoary-extras. it's really for users that want support for all their multimedia codecs
<jasoncohen> mdke, i did- i added the screenshots for hoary + more description
<jasoncohen> sorry, i have to go
<mdke> jasoncohen, ok
<mdke> jasoncohen, we will continue to attempt to eliminate duplicates though
<mdke> integration and merging them
<mdke> as I understand it from Mez, the new user guide is not intended to be new documentation, but rather links to existing docs
<Burgundavia> morning froud 
<froud> hi
<kbrooks> huh
<kbrooks> where did the tabs go
<kbrooks> :/
<Burgundavia> say again?
<kbrooks> i'm on xchat
<Burgundavia> oh geez the faq guide needs work
<mgalvin> speaking of the faq guide, i am going to send an email with some new section titles as a proposal of what should go where and what it the sections should be called
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<mgalvin> unless, has some already made specific proposals?
<Burgundavia> I want to slash the size
<Burgundavia> I just sent an email to the list
<mgalvin> do you have specific topics you feel should be removed
<mgalvin> ok
* mgalvin goes to read email
<Burgundavia> anything but the top 10 or so issues
<Burgundavia> but I don't want to step on anyones toes
<mgalvin> right, i am sure we can come to a consensus on what may need to be removed (possibely moved to a more indepth document)
<Burgundavia> rather than work on what should be removed
<Burgundavia> lets work on what we want the doc to have in it
<Burgundavia> anything that isn't in that list gets removed
<Burgundavia> we can start with my top 10 list from #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> and go from their
<Burgundavia> s/their/there
<mgalvin> yes, i was think the same thing, just sort of the other way around
<mgalvin> certainly
<Burgundavia> the reason I turned it around is that I think it is easier
<Burgundavia> more focused on the "positive"
<mgalvin> agreed
<Burgundavia> shall I create a wiki page for the respec?
<mgalvin> sure
<Burgundavia> ok
<mgalvin> i will not send an email then, we can just collab on the wiki
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I will send an email to the list about the page
<mgalvin> great
<Burgundavia> email sent
<Burgundavia> page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
<mgalvin> for the dvd/mp3/other media section, i was thinking of 1 section called something like "Playing Music and Movies", its a more noob friendly title, imho
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> universe and mulitverse needs a better title as well
<Burgundavia> we could have a section called "Playing Music and Movies"
<Burgundavia> with a subsection for each codec
<mgalvin> exactly :)
<mgalvin> i will add that suggestion to the wiki now
<Burgundavia> already done
<mgalvin> :P, beat me to it
<Burgundavia> you know, pretty much every document I have looked at needs less words in it?
<mgalvin> hmm... "Watching DVD's", "Playing Music - MP3's, AAC, and More", "Using Real Player", "Other Multimedia Formats"
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> fix away the topic titles
<mgalvin> fixing...
<Burgundavia> Installing software?
<Burgundavia> that can be the first section
<Burgundavia> with a subsection about universe
<Burgundavia> and multiverse
<mgalvin> yea, rob^ had starting writing something about install software with synaptic and apt
<Burgundavia> we need something really basic
<mgalvin> and yes the *verse section still needs some cleanup
<Burgundavia> saying: you install software with synaptic
<Burgundavia> and here is how to add repos
<mgalvin> ok, also, what abnout the gnome "Add/Remove Programs" app, isn't some work being down to make this useful
<mgalvin> will it be in breezy, should we use that instead if it will work
<Burgundavia> g-a-i should make breezy
<Burgundavia> it is a google soc project
<Burgundavia> and he is quite active
<mgalvin> maybe we should use that since it would be more familure for m$ users, easier for them to adjust to
<mgalvin> but of course also talk about synaptic
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mgalvin> i'm not sure if that is feasible yet, just a thought
<Burgundavia> we can see as we get closer
<mgalvin> sure, i'm need food
<mgalvin> bbl
<mgalvin> one thing i was thinking(reflected in my current choice of titles) is that currently the guide talks about installing specific software... many new users don't know what this software is, imho we should probably discuss topics based on the type of task being performed not (oh install libdvdcss2)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> that is why the spec is very task oriented
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide isn't bad
<Burgundavia> for being task oriented
<mgalvin> right, i am not saying that the ubuntuguide is bad or wrong, just suggesting that i think there are always more ways to be even more noob friendly
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the ReSpec already looks quite decent
<mgalvin> i helped work on the ubuntuguide to, so i certainly am not going to bash it :)
<mgalvin> yes, it is looking good
<Burgundavia> anything else that Aunt Tillie might need?
<Burgundavia> oh, printers
<mgalvin> yup
<mgalvin> ok, i really need food
<mgalvin> bbl
<Burgundavia> scanners usually just work
<Burgundavia> anything else?
<mgalvin> how good is the iPod support, do they just work, should we mention it in the guide
<mgalvin> and how rythmbox works with em
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ipod support has been getting better
<mgalvin> obviously many people have them
<Burgundavia> that might need a another guide
<Burgundavia> we need an ipod owner
<mgalvin> yes it has, i don't have one to even try, so i don't know how good/easy it is
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WinningTheDesktop
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatWindowsUsersWant
<Burgundavia> we might have missed something
<Burgundavia> menu editing?
<Burgundavia> cd burning?
<Burgundavia> neither work quite the same way as windows
<mgalvin> smeg
<mgalvin> serpentine
<mgalvin> easier install know that they are in the repos
<mgalvin> s/know/now/
<mgalvin> so many typos, i use like 5 different types of keyboards, my hands are confused :-/
<Burgundavia> serpentine and smeg are going to be default
<mgalvin> so smeg is getting in to, cool
<mgalvin> maybe a link to the wiki howtos
<Burgundavia> for what? the guide or the spec?
<mgalvin> in the guide, have a link to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDCreation
<Burgundavia> nah
<mgalvin> although it is so simple now anyway
<Burgundavia> AudioCDCreation references hoary and warty
<Burgundavia> and this guide is only shipping with Breezy
<Burgundavia> ok, I think our guide is done
<mgalvin> s/Editing the menu/Editing the Application Menu/ ?
<mgalvin> editing menu, what menu?
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> I have sent the post to the list saying the spec is mostly complete
<mgalvin> k
<Burgundavia> this should be fun to work on
<mgalvin> yup :)
<Burgundavia> so my plan is to get feedback for the next week
<Burgundavia> on our list and at the NUN list on the 22nd
<Burgundavia> and then get to working on it for next weekend
<mgalvin> sounds good to me
<Burgundavia> did you see my respecing the quick guide thing?
<mgalvin> no
<Burgundavia> went to the list
<mgalvin> hm, thats sounds like a good idea, showcasing the shinny new stuff
<Burgundavia> makes our job easier too
<Burgundavia> less screenshots to take
<mgalvin> yea
<mgalvin> the "New Hotness Guide" ;)
<mgalvin> sorry, watch MIB2 the other day :P
<mdke> "old and nasty guide" can be the old one
<mgalvin> ;)
<mdke> nice work guys
<Burgundavia> mdke, shall I create a wiki page for the Quick Guide respec as well?
<mdke> Burgundavia, my view is that the quickguide should remain
<mdke> maybe a separate "what's new" guide, if you think it would help
<mgalvin> hmm, maybe have a New Features doc to cover the new hotness?
* mdke nods
<mgalvin> took the words out of my mouth ;)
<mgalvin> maybe that could be included/referenced some how from the about ubuntu page that is the defaul firefox home page
<Burgundavia> the quick guide really isn't useful, to be honest
<Burgundavia> and we don't really need another doc
<Burgundavia> jdub says that the current qg is mis-speced
<Burgundavia> and mpt thinks that it is a not a quickguide
<Burgundavia> have you seen the linspire one?
<thechitowncubs> I haven't
<Burgundavia> http://www.linspire.com/quickstart
<mgalvin> kind of like the little booklets you get with mac os x or windows
<mdke> why do you say it isn't useful?
<mdke> i think it is ok
<Burgundavia> it is currently a list of screenshots
<mdke> i'm not saying a "new features" wouldn't be useful (release notes?), i'm just saying the quickguide is useful because it tells you what programs do
<Burgundavia> basically
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> and anyway, what a program does it not really what a user wants to do
<Burgundavia> they want to complete a task
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but that guide is a starter to tell them what programs do
<Burgundavia> but that isn't useful, nor is it a quick guide
<mdke> ok well if you wanna make a new spec and a new guide, then go ahead
<Burgundavia> our current quick guide is a mistake
<mdke> i personally don't think we have the time or resources
<Burgundavia> we do
<mdke> faq guide is #1 priority
<mdke> Burgundavia, ok, as I say, go for it
<Burgundavia> doing the quick guide as newly specced will take less time
<Burgundavia> or should I say, originally specced
<mdke> no you should say newly
<mdke> regardless of whether the original was wrong or not
<thechitowncubs> I think the wiki should have like a search page like google or something of the like, extremely simple... ubuntu logo, then a documentation search
<mdke> thechitowncubs, it has a search dialogue in the top right
<thechitowncubs> I know that
<mdke> what's wrong with it?
<thechitowncubs> the search results are very jumbled and hard to read
<thechitowncubs> and the title text search isn't very useful in my opinion
<Burgundavia> mdke, the FAQ spec as mgalvin and I rewrote will not take long to write
<thechitowncubs> it should just be one search
<mdke> thechitowncubs, ok. That's a problem with the software: you can report it upstream on the moinmoin wiki
<thechitowncubs> i'm just trying to find a way to make the documentation as useful and accessible as possible
<mdke> thechitowncubs, sure, its a good idea
<thechitowncubs> ya, it was just a light bulb in my head
<mdke> thechitowncubs, we need it implemented upstream ideally though, because it depends on the software the wiki uses
<thechitowncubs> i could try to brew something up but is there i way that i can search the wiki from a remote server?
<mdke> best idea is to install the moinmoin software and have a look how the search works
<Burgundavia> something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=test+airport&go=Go
<mdke> do you know python?
<thechitowncubs> Burgundavia: not ideally, but more like this: www.google.com
<thechitowncubs> except with ubuntu logo ;) and a doc search
<mdke> thechitowncubs, i think you could achieve the result you want by modifying the way the current search tools are displayed
<mdke> no?
<Burgundavia> ya
<mdke> search tools/search tool results*
<thechitowncubs> i'm gonna think about it some more, i'll bbl
<mdke> okies
<Burgundavia> fonts just changed
<Burgundavia> in F
<Burgundavia> F
<Burgundavia> due to the change to gtk 2.7
<mdke> have we got xorg 44 yet?
<Burgundavia> works for me
<Burgundavia> no idea for a fresh install
<mdke> is that a yes?
<Burgundavia> it is a maybe
<mdke> damn you... force me to lookup breezy-changes why don't ya
<mdke> ;)
<Burgundavia> which is an answer about as useful as our quick guide
* mdke brandishes a handbag at Burgundavia 
<mdke> we haven't got it
<mdke> 43 is the last
<Burgundavia> mpt, what is your thoughts on our quick guide. Should we respec to a what-is-new-in-breezy doc?
<Burgundavia> http://news.com.com/IBM+steps+into+open-source+Java+project/2100-7344_3-5798290.html?tag=nl
<Burgundavia> someone is trying to hide their pr0n --> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=50836
<mdke> heh
<thechitowncubs> lmao
<mdke> seriously though the recent documents should be removeable
<mdke> removing the whole places menu is a bit drastic though
<thechitowncubs> is it?
<mdke> :)
<thechitowncubs> ya..
<thechitowncubs> the recent documents isn't removable?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> maybe it is
<mdke> not to my knowledge tho
<thechitowncubs> ok
<mgalvin> its not removeable the "Application Places System" is all one widget
<mgalvin> collectively the Gnome Menu
<thechitowncubs> i'm drafting a doc search
<mdke> thechitowncubs, you are sure the current search is not good enough?
<mdke> i think it's pretty good
<thechitowncubs> nothing is ever as good as it can be
<mdke> true
<mdke> but (especially with open source), normally the best answer is to improve what is there, rather than start afresh
<thechitowncubs> http://www.thechitowncubs.com/ubuntu/
<thechitowncubs> :)
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> now you need it to work
<mdke> maybe you could have it search the forum too
<mdke> :)
<thechitowncubs> lol
<thechitowncubs> good idea
<thechitowncubs> it could also have a launchpad sign in
<thechitowncubs> for the future
* mdke nods
<mdke> bugzilla, malone, you name it!
<mgalvin> you know in google you can just do, "site:wiki.ubuntu.com dvd"
<thechitowncubs> true
<mgalvin> not menaing to but down your good idea
<mgalvin> argh typos
<mgalvin> thechitowncubs, would this interface be a part of the wiki?
<thechitowncubs> I was thinking more a search portal for documentation, a one stop place for new users to come if they have a question
<mdke> no it couldn't be part of the wiki
<thechitowncubs> ya, i wasn't thinking of having it part of the wiki
<mgalvin> ok, just wondering
<thechitowncubs> there is a big problem with redundant documentation throught the ubuntuguide/forums/mailing list/wiki
<thechitowncubs> this could be the solution
<mgalvin> do you know about the NUN
<thechitowncubs> New User ...something
<thechitowncubs> not really
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserNetwork
<mgalvin> they are wokring on trying to pull things together for new users, you may want to work with them too
<mgalvin> there is a meeting for that team tomorrow
<mgalvin> since you are interested in helping new users, you may be interested in what they are doing also
<mgalvin> or not, i just thought i would mention it since they exist
<thechitowncubs> ya, i would like to get to know some people
<thechitowncubs> thanks for informing me
<mgalvin> sure, np
<mgalvin> the hang around in #ubuntu-nun
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-27
<HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MplayerInstallHowto
<HrdwrBoB> ugh that looks awful, I'm cleaning it up
<HrdwrBoB> are we mentioning w32codecs on the wiki or not?
<mgalvin> i would say not i think
<HrdwrBoB> yeah that's what I though
<mdke> i like that doc
<mdke> what's up with it?
<HrdwrBoB> mdke: it's fixed now
<mdke> i'll check out your changes
<HrdwrBoB> the content was fine, it just wasn't formatted very well
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i preferred his sources.list to the AddingMultimediaRepositories one
<mdke> backports isn't necessary for mplayer, which is in multiverse
<HrdwrBoB> backports isn't in there
<HrdwrBoB> or at least, it shouldn't be
<HrdwrBoB> it just has hoary-extras
<mdke> well that is a backports archive
<mdke> mplayer is still in ubuntu multiverse
<HrdwrBoB> true
<mdke> i don't like the AddingMultimediaRepositories page
<mdke> hoary-extras --
<HrdwrBoB> should probably link to AddingRepositoriesHowto
<mdke> that's my opinion yeah
<mdke> the ideal conf file IMHO is at ExampleConffiles
<mdke> MplayerInstallHowto is the only page on the wiki that links to AddingMultimediaRepositories :)
<HrdwrBoB> there
<HrdwrBoB> changed the link and fixed up the formatting a bit more
<Burgundavia> should we promote cedega?
<HrdwrBoB> certainly not promote it
<HrdwrBoB> but there's no reason not to tell people it exists
<mdke> no idea about it
<mdke> but people seem to use it and find it useful
<mdke> -->bed
<mdke> night
<mdke> nice one on Mplayer HrdwrBoB 
<mdke> HrdwrBoB, nice to have you helping us. Add your name to WikiTeam?
<mgalvin> s/Keeping your machine updated/Keeping Ubuntu Software Updated/ ?
<mdke> i like machine
<mgalvin> seems a little more noob friendl imho
<mdke> i would say keeping your computer updated is more friendly
<Burgundavia> Keeping Ubuntu updated ?
<mdke> btw maybe you two could get together with rob^ and hack out that spec, resolve any confusion
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> prepare a spec with user audience too
<mdke> like jeff did with the styleguide
<mgalvin> my mom would understand better keeping software updated
<mdke> also, if you cut out any power user stuff, let's cut and paste into the userguide if appropriate
<Burgundavia> shall I add who I think the guide should be targeted at on the top of the page
<Burgundavia> mdke, absolutely, that was the plan
<mdke> Burgundavia, copy jeff's structure
<Burgundavia> to reference sections of the user guide for further info
<Burgundavia> mdke, the one in svn?
<mdke> Burgundavia, on the wiki page
<mdke> (the styleguide spec)
<Burgundavia> where?
<mdke> erm
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuidePlan?highlight=%28styleguide%29
<mdke> StyleGuide i guess, not sure
<mdke> yeah StyleGuide
<Burgundavia> geez
<Burgundavia> that is quite long
<mdke> only the document plan section is what I was thinking of
<mdke> 1-9
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> I am wondering about playing games
<Burgundavia> maybe we should promote some simple games and move cedega to the users guide
<mdke> lincity
<mdke> freeciv
<mdke> supertux
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> ya
<mdke> tuxracer
<Burgundavia> so the only games that are in the faq guide must come out of an Ubuntu repo
<Burgundavia> how does that sound for a principal?
<Burgundavia> s/principal/principle
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> best get your heads together with mgalvin and rob^ 
<mdke> --> bed
<Burgundavia> mgalvin is already here
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping
<mgalvin> i would say stick with stuff in the repos
<Burgundavia> I like agreement
<Burgundavia> this faq guide is going to rock
<mgalvin> rock on :)
<Burgundavia> tomorrow I will solicit opininion from the NUN people
<robitaille> wow...the wiki Java page is really simpler now :)  I'm about to replace my IBM Java plugins by Sun's.
<Burgundavia> yes, the wiki is truly coming along
<Burgundavia> a some point I am going to cleanup bittorrent
<Burgundavia> as that doesn't promote our built-in bittorrent stuff
<HrdwrBoB> mdke: ok :)
<Burgundavia> robitaille, do you have comments on the FAQGuideReSpec
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, nice work with the mplayer page, btw
<HrdwrBoB> cheers
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  haven't had time to look at it yet;  I'll take a look within the hour (after I put the kids to bed)
<Burgundavia> ok
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: great it would be nice to hear their comments and suggestions (the NUN)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> as they are the ones that are going to be helping people when our docs fail
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, you want to do something else?
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: nice spec
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salug
<HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: yeah what needs going
<HrdwrBoB> er doing
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, the FileCompression page should be reorg to be by file format
<Burgundavia> in alphabetical order
<Burgundavia> hmm, do it by extension or by name?
<HrdwrBoB> is a table of contents recommended
<HrdwrBoB> extension
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<HrdwrBoB> I've generally been putting them
<HrdwrBoB>  in
<Burgundavia> make the title Firefox extensions (.xpi)
<Burgundavia> of something
<Burgundavia> I trust your judgement
<HrdwrBoB> cool
<robitaille> FAQGuideReSpec:  should we promote ways of getting "live" help:  IRC, mailing list? A "How to get help from the community" section?
<Burgundavia> robitaille, good idea
<Burgundavia> place at the end?
<Burgundavia> 2nd item?
<robitaille> near the top is probably better
<Burgundavia> added at the end
<robitaille> :)
<Burgundavia> 2nd item after updating?
<robitaille> sounds good.
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> robitaille, what do you think of "keeping your machine updated"?
<Burgundavia> think it should be software or Ubuntu?
<robitaille> Ubuntu.  Sounds more friendly considering what Aunt Tilley knows
<Burgundavia> your Ubuntu or just Ubuntu?
<robitaille> your
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: thnx, good job by Burgundavia too
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, my crazy idea. I just need people to buy into it
<Burgundavia> cause if nobody buys in, it is just a crazy idea
<Burgundavia> I am debating 3D acceleration
<Burgundavia> nah, I will keep it
<robitaille> I think 3D should go....a bit too technical.
<jsgotangco> 3D acceleration in Ubuntu? what for?
<mgalvin> i think we need that
<Burgundavia> ok, it will die
<Burgundavia> hmm
<robitaille> Something about Gaim?  Remember jdub 10x10 talk and girls who like IM?
<mgalvin> er, um well on second thought
<jsgotangco> acceleration is usually a domain in games which is not our core compentency imo
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> unless any of the game you are going to talk about need 3D acceleration?
<mgalvin> it is to technical for our target audience
<HrdwrBoB> someone who wants 3D has more technical ability
<jsgotangco> robitaille: it would be quite a few, since you can count on your fingers native linux games that need acceleration
<HrdwrBoB> ie: they will actively go and look for more help
<Burgundavia> robitaille, we will just avoid it
<mgalvin> possibly refer people to some other doc that discusses it so the brave noobs know where to look
<robitaille> good.  I never play games under Ubuntu :)
<Burgundavia> in the playing games section we can mention it
<HrdwrBoB> heh, I do
<robitaille> and my 1997 graphic card doesn't do 3D anyway :)
<Burgundavia> I need another term like "Surfing the internet"
<robitaille> Travelling on the information superhighway? :)
<Burgundavia> that encompasses email, the internet and gaim
<mgalvin> Using the Internet
<Burgundavia> but I changed the firefox section to be Surfing the Internet
<Burgundavia> ok latest up
<jsgotangco> brb i gotta start work
<Burgundavia> rofl --> IIIEars gentoo is the reason bayer sells aspirin
<Burgundavia> alright, the ReSpec has been spent to pass the parents test
<Burgundavia> s/spent/sent
<mgalvin> its gone
<Burgundavia> huh?
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping
<Burgundavia> rob^, deleted it for some reason
<mgalvin> its back, hmm
<Burgundavia> I just reverted it
<mgalvin> k
<Burgundavia> that is what rob said --> Removing content as it is not applicable to the FAQ Guide yet
<mgalvin> i saw that
* mgalvin scratches head
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> he sounded annoyed that he had not been consulted
<Burgundavia> I thought I was pretty clear it was a work in progress
<Burgundavia> ok, that i odd
<Burgundavia> now it shows robert editing twice and me reverting twice
<Burgundavia> which I haven't done
<Burgundavia> rob^, please stop reverting the page. Lets talk
<HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
<HrdwrBoB> that's a lot better, still needs a littel bit of fixing
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, cheers that looks great
<Burgundavia> what about swapping archive and non-archive formats?
<HrdwrBoB> I put nonarchive formats first because that way people might realise that it's not really an archive
<HrdwrBoB> and odds are on entry they will see what they want in the contents, and click straight to there
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> minor other quibble with the commandline stuff
<Burgundavia> I split it out to make it clear that it could be done by the gui
<Burgundavia> you might want to do that again
<HrdwrBoB> so make the command line usage under a next level header
<Burgundavia> I would put the commandline is a seperate section
<Burgundavia> so you would have 3 sections
<Burgundavia> non-archive, archive and command line
<HrdwrBoB> I'm not sure that would be more useful
<HrdwrBoB> the tar/targz/tarbz2 sections on the archive format thing effectively become irrelevant
<Burgundavia> not really
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, we are still going to keep the faqguide profiled right
<Burgundavia> just that we are trying to promote the gui and a quick glance at the looks like the commandline is the only solution
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, absolutely
<mgalvin> ok, just making sure
<HrdwrBoB> Burgundavia: hm.. perhaps a screenshot of archive manager and a bit about it would be better
<Burgundavia> might be, hmm
<HrdwrBoB> in the basic archives section, and rename that to 'Package Manager'
<Burgundavia> maybe just get rid of the command line stuff?
<HrdwrBoB> well if the target audience is mum and dad
<HrdwrBoB> then yeah, we should really lose it altogether
<Burgundavia> most of the wiki is
<Burgundavia> because if you know about the commandline, you probably know about man pages
<HrdwrBoB> mmmm based on my experience in #ubuntu I'd say possibly not :)
<Burgundavia> ok
<HrdwrBoB> I'll strip out most of the command line stuff in the indiviual sections
<HrdwrBoB> and put in a section on basic command like usage
<HrdwrBoB> line
<Burgundavia> ya, that is what I was thinking
<HrdwrBoB> rather than full examples etc
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, what is your real name?
<HrdwrBoB> MatthewParslow
<Burgundavia> cheers
<HrdwrBoB> that's who's been editing all the pages :)
<Burgundavia> ya, just remembered that
<Burgundavia> had a bit of a bad day
<HrdwrBoB> I've added some screenshots to that page - they're not overly useful but I think they will make people feel good
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> I just reworked GettingUbuntu
<Burgundavia> you might want to take a quick peer
<HrdwrBoB>  If you have a 64 bit system, you need AMD64 install CD
<HrdwrBoB> that's not strictly true, and in many cases a 32 bit system is easier :)
<thechitowncubs> Hey everyone
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> salut thechitowncubs 
<mgalvin> hi thechitowncubs
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, mind if you respond to rob as well
<Burgundavia> as you have been doing work
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, I really like the first screenshot
<Burgundavia> that makes it easy
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<Burgundavia> I wish gnome would move the special actions farther up the menu
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, i do not mind, please feel free to respond
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, no, I was asking if you would respond as well
<thechitowncubs> what are tonights focus of labor?
<Burgundavia> bittorrent needs rewrite
<Burgundavia> to basically say that hoary and breezy just do it
<Burgundavia> how to set it up in warty
<Burgundavia> and advanced clients
<thechitowncubs> I was just looking at that page :)
<thechitowncubs> alright, i'll work on bt
<Burgundavia> cheers
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, i did
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, thanks
<mgalvin> np
<mgalvin> did you see my response?
<Burgundavia> the one where you started the thread?
<mgalvin> no b/c he didn't reply to that one, i replyed to Sec: Unclassified Ubuntu FAQ Guide changes
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, what is your wikiname?
<mgalvin> ok, time for bed, g'night guys, see y'all tomorrow
<mgalvin> zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz
<Burgundavia> night
<thechitowncubs> JohnLambrechts
<Burgundavia> cheers
<HrdwrBoB> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FileCompression
<HrdwrBoB> There, that's better
<Burgundavia> HrdwrBoB, that is great
<HrdwrBoB> There needs to be a basic terminal how to page
<HrdwrBoB> I've looked for one on several occasions, so I'm going to make one :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> discuss histroy basically
<Burgundavia> and ctrl-r searching
<HrdwrBoB> I was thinking basic basics
<HrdwrBoB> how to open a terminal
<HrdwrBoB> getting around
<Burgundavia> oh, that basic
<HrdwrBoB> in many entries on wikis that are aimed at newbies
<HrdwrBoB> it says "open a terminal"
<HrdwrBoB> "run this in a termina"
<HrdwrBoB> but nowhere does it say what that is
<HrdwrBoB> or how to do it
<Burgundavia> hopefully, not as many as a few days ago
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<HrdwrBoB> but for now, there's still quite a lot
* Burgundavia 's personal goal goal is to kill all those references, if possible
<HrdwrBoB> but even where it's presented as an alternative
<HrdwrBoB> we want people to be able to learn about that if they want
<HrdwrBoB> should I create it called Terminal or TerminalHowto or what
<Burgundavia> TerminalHowto
<rob^> right, home from work finally
<Burgundavia> cheers
<rob^> hmm, matts not here
<Burgundavia> no he left about 20 minutes ago
<rob^> ok
<Burgundavia> did you want to talk about the FAQGuideReSpec
<rob^> well I need to talk to matt about it really
<rob^> but regarding that
<rob^> you do realise it started as an exact copy of ubuntuguide.org, right?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I was there in Mataro when the initial work was done
<rob^> hence, its not docbook friendly
<Burgundavia> thats is fine
<rob^> and I dont apprciate you removing most of my changes to the spec either
<Burgundavia> I gave a reason, and we (the various people in this channel) agree with them
<Burgundavia> read the scrollback
<Burgundavia> we had a long discussion about it
<rob^> yes, without the person who wrote it
<Burgundavia> wrote what?
<rob^> you are basically telling me how to write it
<Burgundavia> not really
<rob^> yes really
<Burgundavia> I pulled the latest source out of the cvs
<rob^> and you dont contribute yourself
<Burgundavia> and went, "where do we go with this"
<Burgundavia> rob^, I just got my svn commit access back
<rob^> right, how many times do I have to say "this is going to be changed"
<Burgundavia> rob^, I looked at the exisiting doc and I don't think it really works as an FAQ guide
<thechitowncubs> we don't need fighting
<rob^> its in the comments of the faq guide, I have sent emails regarding it, we discussed it a little at the last meeting
<Burgundavia> yes, I read those
<rob^> Burgundavia, right, thats why the comments are there
<Burgundavia> then I spoke to matt
<Burgundavia> and he and I chatted about a re spec
<rob^> we just havent done it *yet*
<thechitowncubs> we need resolution not fighting
<Burgundavia> and then I created the wiki page and we started hacking on it
<Burgundavia> this is NOT just my idea
<rob^> right, then when I added a few changes, they were pretty much removed
<rob^> something like that need to be done with everyone involved
<Burgundavia> it has been
<rob^> esp someone who has been working on it alot
<rob^> no, it hasnt. All I got was "hey, here is this thing we did"
<Burgundavia> sorry you got that impression
<Burgundavia> that was not intended
<rob^> when I added a few changes, they were dismissed
<rob^> your not even responsible for the guide at the moment
<Burgundavia> matt and I hacked on it and then I posted something to the list, asking for ideas
<Burgundavia> no, I am not
<rob^> right
<Burgundavia> I was going to, but I didn't have commit access and thus declined
<rob^> I will talk about it with matt the next time I see him on here
<rob^> you dont need commit access to contribute
<Burgundavia> please don't just blank the spec
<rob^> until I talk with him and we work out a compromise, I am going to disregard the spec
<Burgundavia> please don't do that
<Burgundavia> lets works this out
<rob^> I'm not happy about this whole thing to be honest
<Burgundavia> what would you like to see?
<Burgundavia> I am trying to present a consistent vision
<rob^> brb son hurt himself
<Burgundavia> for our XP iso burning stuff, should we promote installation of random software?
<rob^> ok back
<rob^> well, was..
<rob^> bbl
<Burgundavia> rob^, we are going to need to resolve this dispute
<rob^> a little respect for others will go a long way
<Burgundavia> I am sorry I offended you, it was not my intention
<Burgundavia> matt and I happened to click on the topic and it snowballed
<rob^> yes, and I appreciate help
<rob^> but I dont like being told what to do
<Burgundavia> I looked at the document as it stood and was worried about a consistent vision
<thechitowncubs> can i ask what document you are talking about and i can give my unbiased point of view?
<Burgundavia> sure
<rob^> yes, but had you have looked at it in a couple of days time, you would have probably not had the same impression
<Burgundavia> FAQGuideReSpec
<Burgundavia> on the wii
<Burgundavia> rob^, then lets work within the spec that Matt and I generated
<Burgundavia> and others worked on
<rob^> the reason that the FAQ guide is in the state its in is because I have a full time job I need to be at
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I am interested in your overal vision
<rob^> my plan for the next few days was to compleatly restructure the FAQ Guide
<Burgundavia> ok
<rob^> (its friday today)
<Burgundavia> good timing
<Burgundavia> now we can work together
<rob^> well, the thing is once I had done that, you wouldnt have said what you just did
<Burgundavia> I am going to take that spec to the NewUsersNetwork to get their ideas at their meeting tomorrow
<Burgundavia> I never had any intention of taking over
<rob^> I dont think nun needs to be involved until we have something we might consider releasing 
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> I am asking their opinions
<rob^> yes, but we need to have more then just a layout plan before asking for opinions
<rob^> thats not even finalised yet
<rob^> mainly due to this
<Burgundavia> we have a spec
<Burgundavia> that we are working on
<Burgundavia> now is the perfect time to ask as many people as possible
<rob^> you do realise the FAQ Guide is more then just an faq guide for Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> huh?
<Burgundavia> can you elaborate?
<rob^> theres a kde profile in there and others
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the profile will remain
<Burgundavia> I have no idea where that idea came from
<rob^> at this stage I can only see us having a Ubuntu version for Breezy
<rob^> there is still a lot of work to be done
<Burgundavia> that is why we need a clear roadmap
<Burgundavia> hence the spec
<rob^> yes, but the spec doesn't take into account the fact that the faq guide originated from ubuntuguide.org
<rob^> its like proposing a whole new document
<Burgundavia> yes it is
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide is not useful as an FAQ guide
<Burgundavia> to be honest
<rob^> right, but never the less thats where it came from
<Burgundavia> I was there when we profiled the ubuntuguide and converted it into docbook
<rob^> I dont like it either, but I have and still am working to change that
<Burgundavia> then why object to the spec?
<rob^> things like this spec are just adding more work 
<Burgundavia> no they are not
<Burgundavia> they are provided a clear roadmap, so many people can work on it
<rob^> ok
<rob^> I need to have a bigger imput into it
<rob^> input ^
<Burgundavia> ok, go nuts
<rob^> simply
<rob^> as I have done most of the work to take it from ubuntuguide.org until now
<rob^> I was happy to go along with a "spec"
<Burgundavia> yes, I recognize that
<rob^> until all my changes were pretty much removed from it
<rob^> the only changes I made were to align the spec with what the document acutally is
<Burgundavia> we are promoting the Ubuntu best practices
<Burgundavia> nautlius does ftp
<Burgundavia> evo over tbird
<rob^> yes, but its not optimal
<Burgundavia> editing gconf is not somethign that should in a faqguide
<rob^> I was the one who added nautlius and ftp to the doc
<Burgundavia> cedega is going into the users guide
<rob^> as for gconf, that is why we have gTweakUI
<Burgundavia> that is crack
<Burgundavia> there is no need to bother new users with that stuff
<rob^> right, but a frequently asked question is "how do I play my windows games"
<Burgundavia> for some
<Burgundavia> the doc is bigger than #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> I am shooting for Aunt Tillie and my step-mother
<rob^> for Ubuntu's target users
<Burgundavia> who could care less about windows games
<rob^> most of which are migrating from windows
<rob^> want to play windows games
<Burgundavia> a select few
<rob^> you are wrong
<rob^> many do
<Burgundavia> cedega is also really not easy to setup
<rob^> its why a lot of people dont change or still dual boot
<Burgundavia> needs its own guide
<rob^> maybe, but it still needs to be addressed in the faq
<Burgundavia> there will be a line in the games section
<rob^> all thats there now is a link to a guide to install cedega
<Burgundavia> pointing at the user guide
<Burgundavia> which will go into windows games and ubuntu
<rob^> yes
* rob^ slaps head
<rob^> a link is fine
<rob^> thats whats there now
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> you have a section
<Burgundavia> the spec is sections and subsections
<rob^> all the section was going to contain was a quick blurb and a link to a proper guide
<Burgundavia> what appears on the left, not what appears on the right
<rob^> the faq needs to be short
<Burgundavia> that can be done from the main games section
<rob^> and simple
<Burgundavia> I agree
<Burgundavia> that is why I removed some things that you added in
* rob^ points above
<Burgundavia> they are not short or simple
<rob^> look, this is going no where. you wont even listen to me here let alone on the spec
<Burgundavia> dude, gconf and gtweakui is a power user thing
<rob^> I'll discuss this further with matt
<rob^> cya
<Burgundavia> rob^, what do you want to add back in?
<Burgundavia> lets talk specifics
<Burgundavia> salut venda 
<venda> morn
<Burgundavia> rob^ and I are having a disagreement about the FAQGuideReSpec
<venda> k
<Burgundavia> wondered if you would take a look
<venda> what's the disagree
<Burgundavia> I don't really know
<venda> so what am I looking for :-)
<Burgundavia> matt galvin and I did some brainstorming
<Burgundavia> we came up with this spec
<Burgundavia> you have probably seen the mailing list stuff
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
<Burgundavia> rob did some editing, adding a few things from the existing faq guide
<Burgundavia> I disagreed with some and removed them
<Burgundavia> citing a reason in the diff
<Burgundavia> then he blanked it
<Burgundavia> so I am trying to figure out a common ground
<venda> carry on just reading the spec
<venda> I don't understand that outline. It reads like a User Manual, not a FAQ
<venda> this I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I imagined each page as less than one screen
<venda> You want FAQ to be a User Manual
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> those are frequently asked questions
<Burgundavia> How do I create a dvd?
<Burgundavia> etc.
<Burgundavia> the most common stumbling blocks
<Burgundavia> notice I add printers but not scanners
<venda> Um FAQ is Question and Answer
<venda> You can have divs between sections
<Burgundavia> it is
<Burgundavia> add How do I in front of each subsection
<venda> Hold I must open the FAQ
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut
<venda> Burgundavia: you are proposing a very big change
<Burgundavia> yes
<venda> Burgundavia: rob^ has been hard at work for a few weeks now
<Burgundavia> I just got commit access back, so I intend to do a lot of the writing, as well
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, got an email from mdz on PDATesting, we're set but we have a very conservative baseline target
<Burgundavia> I realize that
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ok
<Burgundavia> so has mgalvin
<jsgotangco> venda, hello
<jsgotangco> wow thats nice
<venda> Burgundavia: but rob^ has done the most
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> he and I are trying to work out what the issues is
<venda> mgalvin has done lots on user guide
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what is nice?
<venda> jsgotangco: hello
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, getting commit access again
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> venda, I had always intended to do this to the faq gude, just I was lazy about getting my commit access back
<jsgotangco> i was playing around with Picasa on an xp box and i'm just at awe at what it can do
<venda> Burgundavia: I would not make any dramatic changes without buyin from rob^ . He is the defacto document owner at present
<venda> Burgundavia: lazy yes
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I just wanted your opinion
<venda> Burgundavia: lazy does not mean you can just decide to do it now
<Burgundavia> well, I have done what I think the faq needs
<venda> Burgundavia: I think there may be a middle ground
<jsgotangco> just sort things out between the two of you and im sure there is an acceptable compromise for both
<venda> Burgundavia: sure, but always need to consider other authors
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> not everything on that page is mine
<Burgundavia> there is considerable input for mgalvin and rob
<venda> Burgundavia: just a sec I wont to show you something
<Burgundavia> venda, I have to go, pm me with it
<venda> Burgundavia: update to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FAQGuideReSpec
<venda> The outline now is designed to encompass a much larger set of questions
<Burgundavia> umm, what is the stuff you pasted?
<Burgundavia> the original toc?
<venda> end of page
<venda> that is the current outline
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> thought as much
<venda> The categories are much broader in perspective
<venda> It helps to see them side by side
<Burgundavia> yes
<venda> The titles are short
<venda> Rapid Information Retrieval
<Burgundavia> totally useless for your average desktop user, IMHO
<Burgundavia> installing printer vs. Hardware
<Burgundavia> umm..
<venda> when people search they look for keywords and categories
<Burgundavia> anyway, I really have to go
<venda> fine
<Burgundavia> post to the list
<Burgundavia> I am trying my new toc on my parents 
<Burgundavia> see what they think
<venda> I think you should follow rob^ 
<venda> sorry
<Burgundavia> to be honest, I am not going to blindly follow somebody
<Burgundavia> I didn't see a whole document visiion
<Burgundavia> so I provided one
<venda> Burgundavia:  he has done bulk of the work
<venda> an dhe has a vision
<Burgundavia> yes, but see above
<venda> now you come in an dwant to turn that upside down
<venda> I don't think it is helpful
<Burgundavia> no
<venda> not now
<Burgundavia> I provided a vision
<Burgundavia> I asked for his input
<Burgundavia> and others
<Burgundavia> and that was incorporated
<venda> some weeks back when we asked for people to own docs
<venda> that would have been a good time for discussion
<Burgundavia> I considered our release cycle when I did this
<venda> but rob^ has put in major work and nobody contested. Now to make a big change, like you are asking, no matter how good the idea. I s not right
<Burgundavia> sep8 is when we stop writing
<Burgundavia> venda, that is total crack
<Burgundavia> and leads to bad docs
<venda> Burgundavia: you have sat on the side for weeks
<venda> and said nothing
<venda> you have not done a commit in weeks
<Burgundavia> if someone said to me that what I was writing was crack, then I would say ok
<Burgundavia> provide me a better alternative
<venda> he has been working hard
<Burgundavia> that is what I have done
<venda> changes are good, but not a revolution
<Burgundavia> I saw no communicated vision
<Burgundavia> we have a wiki for a reason
<Burgundavia> if a spec had existed, I would have posted an email asking about certain changes
<Burgundavia> ok, I am off
<Burgundavia> will be back tomorrow for the NUN meeting
<sivang> Burgundavia: what is the NUM meeting?
<sivang> venda: 'sup Shawn ?
<robitaille> sivang:  NewUserNetwork Meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda
<sivang> robitaille: what is the NUM all about? helping new users?
<robitaille> sivang:  I'm not that familiar with their actitivities, but it seems it is a group of people that want to help new users 
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
<rob^> except some of them seem to think they are a group of people who tell docteam members what to do
<robitaille> "The Aim of the Ubuntu New User Project is to try and help new Ubuntu Users get to grips with Ubuntu. Members of the New User Network will spend a lot of time on IRC, the forums and the mailinglists."
<robitaille> I think the problem arose when they starting writing up wiki documents for new users; creating  a duplication of effort.
<rob^> is anyone here?
<rob^> aww come on!
<rob^> I could really use some docbook advice
<rob^> never mind
<rob^> I figured it out :)
<mdke> venda, agree with you.
<mdke> corey has done this a little bit disruptively
<rob^> yes
<mdke> rob^, get together with those guys and have your input on the spec
<rob^> yeah I tried that
<rob^> corey basically ignored me
<mdke> comments like this worry me a bit
<mdke>         <!-- Despite the so called "spec", this will be done differently. A proper spec will be done at a later date -->
<mdke> any division needs to be ended quickly and resolved
<rob^> I know, but I dont want people editing it going off the spec that was done, as I have had no input into it
<rob^> and corey wont accept any from me either
<rob^> as it is the spec thats been done looks more like a userguide then a simple faq
<rob^> and it addresses nothing in the faq guide
<mdke> i haven't looked at it
<rob^> its almost like saying "lets scrap all that and start again"
<rob^> and I dont agree with it
<mdke> that is what he is saying maybe
<mdke> listen, the important thing is to get this resolved
<mdke> we can mediate and you can sort it out with corey. but the important thing is that you can discuss it with mgalvin
<mdke> k?
<rob^> yes, I want to, but I'm not going to be told "this is how it is, like it or lump it" when I have done most of the work
<rob^> I plan on discussing this with matt when I see him on here next
<rob^> as I pointed out to corey today
<mdke> good
<mdke> it will be ok
* froud thinks pppl should follow lead of rob^ on this issue
<rob^> froud, I agree
<mdke> corey has a tendency to be too "final" in his comments
<mdke> mgalvin and rob are leads
<froud> rob^ leads it, he has the most work
<mdke> they should talk, if necessary with the input of others in the team.
<mdke> but I agree, those who do the work, have the most say
<froud> rob^: I think there is some merit in what is being proposed. I think it is up to you to decide how much of the proposal you will accept.
<mdke> but the aim of us all here is to make the most useful document for all
<rob^> with my latest commit, it solves most of the problems corey is pointing out anyway
* froud nods
<mdke> i also think there is merit in the proposal, but I believe in communication and I know that this problem can be resolved
<rob^> I would have done this 2 days ago, but I do have a job
<rob^> whist I'm happy to accept comments and critisims, theres a right way and wrong way to do it
<rob^> and corey compleatly overstepped the mark
<froud> rob^: you lead it, but stay open to channels. You have the final say until release on this document. After release, it becomes anybodys game again.
<rob^> froud, agreed
<mdke> as i said, corey has a tendency to be very "final" in his remarks
<rob^> froud, and I'm happy to accept help in the mean time, but it needs to help not hinder
<mdke> don't take it personally
<froud> rob^: you seem to have already made a compromise with your last patch. This is good, because it does indicate that you are willing to work with outhers
<rob^> froud, yes
<rob^> froud, its something I have been working on paper anyway and some of the idea comes from what he said
<froud> rob^: all that remains is for others o respect your position and main commiter on that document
<froud> postion as main
* froud has 10 thumbs today
<rob^> oh, and I appreciate you all standing behind me on this as you have done
<rob^> thanks
<froud> rob^: you are doing a fantastic job.
<froud> Until you, nobody was doing anything
<rob^> yeah, I know
<mdke> of course we will stand behind the person doing the work
<mdke> but ideas are good, even if corey in this case has handled it badly
<froud> rob^: however, there is some positive in their proposal
<rob^> froud, I know
<froud> rob^: first it shows that they do care
<mdke> we should be working more as a team on specs, because the books we produce affect directly the documentation as a whole
<rob^> and I have recognised this with him
<mdke> [OT]  where are the cron logs?
<froud> rob^: second it shows that people do want to help, but are lacking direction
<rob^> in fact, at first I took a look at what he put on that page, and made a few suggestions of my own. 
<froud> rob^: I think that you can help channel their energy into a positive direction that is good for everyone
<rob^> its when corey compleatly removed all my suggestions and even my name from the page is when I became annoyed
<rob^> thats the only reason I took the stand I did
<mdke> ouch
<froud> rob^: I don't thin kitmatters now much
<mdke> we'll talk to him, ok?
<rob^> ok
<mdke> froud, can you help me on something?
<froud> rob^: what matters is that you remain focused and resolute on your target. Perhaps express your vision to people, embrace some of their ideas and find a new goal, focus and vision that encompasses the group of people willing to help
<mdke> i setup a cron job on the docteam server and I can't tell if its working or not
<mdke> where are the damn logs?
<froud> syslog no?
<mdke> lemme see
<rob^> hmm
<mdke> hmm indeed
<rob^> I agree, my day job is heavily teamwork-focused, I am an expert at it
<mdke> i don't think the cronjob has worked
<froud> mdke: does not look like it :-)
<rob^> I'm going to attempt to update the spec page with a few things, I am willing to work together so long as other are also
<rob^> ^others
<froud> fair enough, go for it. :-)
<mdke> rob^, if you like you can create a /talk page for the spec and add comments
<rob^> yeah, I might do
<mdke> ok what have i done wrong. I did "crontab -e" as the relevant user, and added the following:
<mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
<mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> doesn't look like cron is even trying to use it
<mpt> Burgundavia: I can understand the existence of (1) an "Ubuntu Manual" for non-admins, designed for print, (2) an "Ubuntu Admin Guide", designed for print, and (3) Ubuntu Help, designed for online use
<mpt> I'm not sure how the "Quick" Guide fits in to that
<mpt> Perrhaps it could be the basis for the Ubuntu Manual.
<mgalvin> hi all
<mpt> Oh, and (4) a "Quick Reference" designed for print.
<mpt> That would be a one-page guide.
<mdke> mgalvin, perhaps you can have a chat with rob^ about this respec business
<froud> mdke: there is no /var/log/cron and /var/log/messages says nothing
<froud> well noting about crontab
<mdke> froud, i looked in syslog, it notes the changes in crontab but nothing else
<froud> yes, seems it did not run :-(
<mdke> any idea why?
<froud> but you ran it as your user
<froud> your user has rights in /srv
<froud> Hmm
* froud thins
<mdke> hang on a tic
* froud thinks
<mdke> if you do "users" it doesn't show that user
<mdke> also, henrik is gone
<mdke> what has happened?
<froud> youwant my thoughts?
<mdke> sure
<froud> we should enable /home/*/public_html
<froud> in apache and let you run it from there
<mdke> froud, what about thoughts on the current question?
<mdke> we can discuss public_html
<froud> at present, does you account have root
<froud> full root
<mdke> the account I'm running the cronjob on is called ubuntu-docs and it has no admin capability
<froud> if not then how can you run a crontab
<froud> that requires such permissions
<mdke> cron jobs can be run by any users
<froud> hence it fails
<mdke> no it doesn't!
<froud> yes you want to copy to srv/
* mdke sighs
<froud> how can ubuntu-docs cp to srv?
<mdke> because it owns the relevant folder
<mdke> but that's not the point
<mdke> the cron job is not running at all
* froud checks again
<mdke> but the strange thing is that there seems to be no user called ubuntu-docs
<mdke> or henrik
<mdke> although their home directories are still there
<froud> mdke: I can't use -u
<froud> trying to see cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u 
<mdke> -u needs a user after it doesn't it?
<mdke> and you need admin rights too i think
<froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-doc
<froud> crontab:  user `ubuntu-doc' unknown
<froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
<mdke> ubuntu-docs
<froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$ cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
<froud> must be privileged to use -u
<froud> sean@none:/srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www$
<mdke> yes
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> root@none:~ # cat /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f1 | xargs crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
<mdke> crontab: usage error: no arguments permitted after this option
<froud> exactly and that command works on my host
<froud> without the user
<froud> I can see all the crottabs on my machine
<mdke> erm
<mdke> root@none:~ # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
<mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
<mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> the command is wrong dude
<mdke> you run hoary on your host?
<froud> yeah
<mdke> hmm
<froud> no my command is used to gather crontabs from all users
<mdke> ok
<mgalvin> mdke, yes rob^ and i will get together to talk about the repsec, i am on my way to work in a few min so we will be going over everything in a little while
<mdke> mgalvin, great news
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> froud, i'll play around later and figure it out
<mgalvin> bbl
<mgalvin> back
<rob^> cool
<rob^> yes, so
<rob^> the document outline is currently whats in svn
<mgalvin> just a short recap, rob^ and I had a discussion(off channel) about what transpired yesterday which was forced quite a bit, we have resolved any and all concerns and will continue to move forward in a positve and constructive way, everyone(ESPECIALLY ALL of the most ACTIVE contributors) should be actively included in these types of discussions and developement, so lets get back to business together :)
<rob^> yes, I agree
<jjesse> are you guys talking about the changes to the FAQ guide
<jjesse> cause i like how it looks
<rob^> jjesse, have you see the latest one?
<jjesse> i looked last night but was there a change made before 11pm EST
<rob^> yeah, I have made a few big changes since
<rob^> umm..
<rob^> well if you look at svn now, you will see whats up to date :)
<rob^> just build it
<jjesse> ok checking it out
<rob^> do you know when the live previews will work on DocteamProjects again?
<rob^> (I realise they are in the process of changing servers)
<jjesse> rob^ where in svn is that kept?
<rob^> build/gnome/faqi386
<rob^> or generic/faqguide/C/ for the .xml
<mgalvin> hey rob^, what do you think about calling "Sound and Video" "Music and Movies", i am kindda partial to calling it that, that was my initial suggestion, seems a little more noob friendly imho
<rob^> yeah its much of a muchness really
<rob^> knock yourself out :P
<rob^> (aussie humor)
<mgalvin> :)
<rob^> I'm about to send a msg to the list saying that comments on the spec should be sent to the list rather then edited on the wiki
<rob^> this would exclude you and me however
<mgalvin> ok
<mgalvin> i feel so special ;)
<rob^> cool
<rob^> hehe
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey hows your day going
<jsgotangco> hmmm why did the guy who filed in bugzilla sent it as documentation bug when its obviously hardware related
<rob^> hehe yeah
<rob^> the powerbook thing
<mgalvin> pretty good, rob^ and I are pushing forward with the faqguide and i think some good progress is being made to resolve issues and make a rocking guide
<jsgotangco> man the faqguide in svn is burning kudos to you rob^
<rob^> :) thanks
<jsgotangco> you too mgalvin
<jsgotangco> i haven't been doing enough stuff lately because of issues at work and home
<jsgotangco> i've been doing it in small patches though
<mgalvin> thanks, rob^ has been blazing the trail recently and making great progress
<jsgotangco> also have to make a main inclusion report after testing some stuff
<jsgotangco> by chance is anyone here familiar with Oracle Applications? :)
<rob^> no, sorry
<mgalvin> i am a bit, whats up
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: 11.5.9 you familiar with it
<mgalvin> latest i have used extensively was 10g, but ask, maybe i can help
<jsgotangco> (Oracle Financials)
<jsgotangco> no, not the database
<jsgotangco> Oracle 11i is E-Business suite using 9i db
<mgalvin> no sorry, i have not used that one :-/
<jsgotangco> its alright its kinda hard to look for people who worked with it really
<jsgotangco> i usually talk to some indian at this time, but even we get conflicting solutions heh
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: have you tried running 9i/10g in Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> (if its possible)
<mgalvin> i haven't tried yet, but i have seen docs describing how to do it, i a pretty positive it should work
<mgalvin> here is one
<mgalvin> http://www.sussdorff.de/journal/one-entry?entry_id=27082
<mgalvin> again, i haven't personally tired so, no promises
<mgalvin> oracle docs also have lots of good stuff on what kernel params and such need to be set
<jsgotangco> it would be interesting if ubuntu will push for support on such and oracle accepts
<mgalvin> that would be pretty sweet
<mgalvin> it would make ubuntu even more viable for enterprises
<mgalvin> http://www.oracle-base.com/articles/10g/OracleDB10gInstallationOnFedora3.php
<mgalvin> its for fedora, but just make appropriate path mods, etc...
<mgalvin> rob^, you ok with moving installing flash into the internet section(seems more logical to me to put it there since it for inet stuff)
<rob^> yeah, I wasnt sure on that one actually.
<rob^> let me commit my change first
<mgalvin> k
<mgalvin> rob^, have you been using breezy at all yet?
<rob^> I was before they broke x
<mgalvin> hehe :)
<mgalvin> i was thinking that we don't need mplayer and the mplayer plugin, totem provides these quite well now
<mgalvin> i don't really like mplayer, but thats just my personal pref
<mgalvin> totem, imho, is much nicer and easier to use
<mgalvin> breezy already has totem and the totem plugin in it
<rob^> yes I agree totem is nice, it runs like crap on my pc though, mplayer works good though
<rob^> weard, that
<rob^> oh, I've done the commit
<mgalvin> have you tried totem with the xine backends
<mgalvin> gstreamer is really sluggish
<rob^> yeah, might do
<rob^> I use to have that going on Breezy IIRC
<rob^> hmm that works much better
<rob^> stick totem-xine in for sure
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> so possibly remove mplayer, this also may be a good idea since i know many people often have issues getting mplayer installed properly, especially on the ppc arch, totem just works
* rob^ looks at time, shite its 1:30 am
<rob^> glad its friday
<rob^> well saturday now
<jsgotangco> heh yeah im ready to crash as well..but then its a weekend
<mgalvin> ah TGIF
<mgalvin> still 11:30 on firday here :)
<mgalvin> am
<jsgotangco> im in a separate PC across my table playing guild wars
<jsgotangco> and wife is already asleep so i'll just pig out the whole night
<rob^> yeah mine is too
<mgalvin> rob^ i am gonna run xmlindent on the guide to just to clean it up a bit so its easier to read, any objections?
<rob^> I gotta pass a fitness test soon so I cant pig out
<rob^> nope
<rob^> go ahead
<mgalvin> k
<jsgotangco> ahh i love the weekends its the only time my wife allows me to eat junk
<rob^> maccas run?
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> that was a quick maccas run
<jsgotangco> heheh
<jsgotangco> i actually had a quarter pounder a few hours ago
<jsgotangco> its been months since i last had one
* rob^ wishes he wasnt to lazy to get in his car and go get one himself
* rob^ yawns
<rob^> time to hit the sack I think
<rob^> b4 the bub wakes up
<rob^> night all, have fun mgalvin 
<jsgotangco> night
<mgalvin> night rob^
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep too heh
<jsgotangco> night
<mgalvin> night jsgotangco
<mgalvin> rob^ are you still there, quick question
<mgalvin> oh well, it'll wait till tomorrow
<jsgotangco> gyahaahhhh
<robitaille> yes?
<jsgotangco> i get to be on the laptop testing team heh...i just got an email right now
<robitaille> I just got mine as well.  I also did the little dance in my kitchen :)
<jsgotangco> haha congrats to you too
<jsgotangco> damn its 12am
<robitaille> 9am here.  About to start packing to go camping for the week.  
<robitaille> no computer access for a full 7 days :)
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jsgotangco> robitaille: did you read #8
<jsgotangco> 3 Ubuntu releases?
<Burgundavia> you can always return it
<robitaille> it used to be 2 in a draft version on the wiki.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<robitaille> It's only 18 months.
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<jsgotangco> that's not too much
<robitaille> we do the debugging/testing anyway on our own :)
<jsgotangco> i was reading wikipedia on miss universe winners...
<robitaille> I see that jsgotangco is having a very busy evening while his wife is already sleeping
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<jsgotangco> (at least its wikipedia)
<jsgotangco> and claire's email suddenly erased thoughts of sleeping
<Burgundavia> now that is odd
<Burgundavia> I got an email for Matthew Garret
<jsgotangco> what about it?
<Burgundavia> the laptop testing email
* jsgotangco hugs gmail label feature
<robitaille> yes it was from Claire, to Matthew.  I guess all the testers were BCC to it.
<jsgotangco> hmmm is LaptopTestingSpec up to date?
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> I didn't think I put my name down
<Burgundavia> I didn't
<Burgundavia> odd
<jsgotangco> odd?
<Burgundavia> I got an email from claire, regarding the laptop testing team when I didn't put my name down to be part of it
<jsgotangco> well maybe they mjg59 has too many laptops in his pad and wants to dispose them
<jsgotangco> surely he doesn't want to test them all by himself
* robitaille is afraid will all each get half-a-dozen laptops each to test at every release
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  look at it in a positive way:  people really appreciate you bug-finding skills if they really want you on that team
<jsgotangco> robitaille: scary thought...
<Burgundavia> I guess so
<jsgotangco> robitaille: next they'll be sending you servers to test...
<Burgundavia> someone may have added me
* Burgundavia wouldn't mind a server
<jsgotangco> *ahem* blade servers
<Burgundavia> those are the new and shiny ones, no?
<Burgundavia> wouldn't mind them
<robitaille> servers are often a bit noisy to put in my kitchen (the only place where I can fit a computer in this small apartment)
<jsgotangco> yeah servers would rule as long as they won't get to be no bigger than an as400 machine
<Burgundavia> I would have to sleep with a server, no thanks
<Burgundavia> my cunning plan is to get my parents to colo my server, so to speak
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: any universe app that might be a candidate for main needs an inclusion report?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> for good reason, as you saw in my list
<Burgundavia> s/list/email to the list
<jsgotangco> yes i'll make one then as mdz requested
<Burgundavia> for edubuntu?
<jsgotangco> well theres one for edubuntu and one for pda spec..or is it too late for an inclusion?
* jsgotangco havent been checking schedules
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> there is no seed freeze, afaik
<Burgundavia> the edubuntu one, please put on the edubuntu page
<jsgotangco> alright
* Burgundavia needs to do one for p7zip
<mdke> Burgundavia, have you clarified with rob^ ?
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes
<mdke> good :)
<jsgotangco> hey mdke
<mdke> hiya
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: p7zip is 7zip for nix?
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> 7z is awesome
<Burgundavia> at the very least, it needs some fixing
<jsgotangco> hey mdke how's the tube
<mdke> i haven't been in london a lot recently...
<jsgotangco> understandable
<robitaille> mdke:  got the laptop email?
<mdke> yeah :)
<mdke> dunno what hardware tho
* robitaille high-five mdke 
<jsgotangco> well pray its not a samsung or an acer heheh
<jsgotangco> but the spec mostly covers dell, toshiba, hp and ibm
<mdke> anything light would really be nice
<mdke> but what the hell, its free!
<robitaille> mdke:  you're the closest to them.  You will get the big paper-weight laptop to save shipping cost
<jsgotangco> sure after 3 releases heh
<jsgotangco> robitaille: hahah
<mdke> noooooooooooo
* mdke moves to australia
<jsgotangco> mdke: do uk people free to move in commonwealth states?
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> doubt it
<jsgotangco> so much for having the same queen hehe :P
<froud> no, but it is easier
<mdke> froud has been to them all!
<jsgotangco> is isle of man a state?
<froud> if you have a BP marked as BC you will find it easy to move around
<mdke> jsgotangco, part of the UK afaik, but not 100% sure
<robitaille> jsgotangco: not really.  A friend of mine from UK was trying to move to Canada, and he had to go through the usual immigration red-tape. 
<jsgotangco> huh? what kind of englishman are you anyway ;)
<mdke> bah
<froud> robitaille: you have to use the channels, but believe me it is easier
<mdke> i have only half english blood
<froud> if I tried to move countries with my SA passport it would be difficult
<jsgotangco> mdke: no tea and lemon biscuits then?
<mdke> mmm
<mdke> those come into the half that I've got
<robitaille> tell that to a poor student who still had to pay hundred of dollars in visa fees :)  But I agree, it was probably a little bit easier.
<jsgotangco> i agree
<jsgotangco> to a poor urban professional like me hundreds of dollars is worth a lot
<jsgotangco> hmmm how i wish OOo2 base would be as clear to use like filemaker
* Burgundavia is testing how well ext3 can recover, by kicking his power cable out
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<venda> network splits
<venda> bah!
* robitaille thinks Burgundavia is crazy to try to simulate hd corruptions...
* Burgundavia thinks he is just crazy
<jsgotangco> thinks?
<Burgundavia> I like to rabble rouse
<Burgundavia> haven't you figured that out by now?
<Kinnison> burgey: you *are* crazy
<robitaille> the best is probably to find a VERY large pictures.  Try to some complex gimp transformation on it.  When it start swaping (especially if your swap space is a file on your ext3 disk) like crazy, then pull the plug.
<robitaille> but a hammer also works very well to simulate disk problems and bad blocks
<Kinnison> erm s/simulate/stimulate/
<jsgotangco> damn i should stop playing san andreas, im beginning to speak like an east side gangster
* Burgundavia deletes the 500th "Would you like to buy Windows XP" spam
<Burgundavia> no I don't. I hate XP. I hate windows. I hate MS, go away!
<jsgotangco> how about your viagra emails heh
<Burgundavia> ya, get those 2
<jsgotangco> alright i really got to sleep now
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jjesse> from sean's earlier email i've started using the eclipse docbook plugin
<jjesse> works great w/ the subversion plugin as well
<venda> jjesse: have you found a way to stop it from changing the whitespace ?
<jjesse> venda not yet still working on it, just found the subversion plugin so i'm going to working on it this weekend
<venda> jjesse: you are talking aboyt vex, right?
<jjesse> nod vex and subeclipse
<venda> yes
<venda> vex is nice for editing, but makes big changes in the whitespace
<jjesse> thanks for letting me know about that... i will be careful
<venda> open a file, save it and the diff it against svn you will see what I mean
<venda> if we can find a way to stop that happening it will be bongo
<thechitowncubs> Amarok page created last night
<Burgundavia> noticed that
<Burgundavia> cool
<mdke> we need to make an effort on the documentation page to explain the guides. rather than "guide to x", maybe "guide to x, which does y"
<Burgundavia> we should also spec all the docs ont eh wiki
<Burgundavia> to prevent what just happened
<mdke> yes
<mdke> we agreed to do that two meetings back
<Burgundavia> oh
<mdke> although it'll be no use if you come along as say "this spec is wrong" :p
<Burgundavia> I didn't
<Burgundavia> there was no spec
* mdke nods
<mdke> i was being hypothetical
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the quick guide is also misspeced, but meh
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> I am going to work on the wiki, where I can actually change useful things
<mdke> you have a real tendency to be very final in your suggestions
<Burgundavia> I don't mean to
<mdke> i know dude
<mdke> just add IMO to every sentence
<mdke> maybe an email signature :D
<Burgundavia> ok, IMHO
<Burgundavia> yes, IMHO
<mdke> lol
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> the reason I sound that way is that I tend to spend about 6 months thinking about something
<Burgundavia> then just move
<mdke> i understand
<Burgundavia> rather than dither about
<mdke> but we have to work as a team
<mdke> which means gathering opinions
<Burgundavia> working as a team also means published what we plan to do
<Burgundavia> I did
<mdke> takes a bit longer, as Sean complains, but it makes for more love
<Burgundavia> we need to be more agressive about promoting what we are working on
<Burgundavia> then we can get more people, if their is a vision
<mdke> agreed
<mdke> the server should help
<Burgundavia> we need spec pages on the wiki
<Burgundavia> ala the style guide thingy
<Burgundavia> so people can come in and start working, in a useful manner
<mdke> agreed
<Burgundavia> so, back to my thinking and doing
<Burgundavia> I am going to fork the faqguide
<mdke> i'm adding some explanations to the UserDocumentation page
<mdke> oh yeah?
<Burgundavia> create a common problems guide based on the spec that I worked on
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> going to keep it in baz
<mdke> what are you gonna call it?
<Burgundavia> Common Problems guide
<mdke> sounds like the sort of thing mpt might be interested in
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<Burgundavia> that is the intention
<mdke> have you got a spec already then?
<Burgundavia> yes, the one that I created for the FAQGuide respec
<Burgundavia> as it passed the father test
<thechitowncubs> is the FAQGuide still under dispute?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I forked it
<thechitowncubs> oh ok
<Burgundavia> mdke, anything you want raised at the nun meeting?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec
<mdke> except for the useless duplication of documentation on the wiki...
<mdke> nothing else
<Burgundavia> suggestions welcome
<thechitowncubs> when is the nun meeting?
<mdke> Burgundavia, will you be in bad cop mode at the meeting?
<mdke> want me to come?
<Burgundavia> I hope not to be
<Burgundavia> see how it goes
<mdke> go the diplomacy route... Mez understand our point of view
<Burgundavia> so does Nalioth
<mdke> if we get bad cop on them they'll just back into corners
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mdke> in the end, all we want to do is ensure that effort gets funnelled in the most efficient way
<Burgundavia> I got to grab some lunch, feel free to comment on the commonprobs spec
<mdke> ok
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm adding bold font to the program names in UserDocumentation, think its a good idea?
<Burgundavia> just do it
<Burgundavia> no idea right now, have to see it
<mdke> ok yeah
<mdke> me too
<mgalvin> i started adding bold font to command name in the faqguide if you want to see an small example
<mgalvin> look in the installing codecs section
<thechitowncubs> i think bolding the links would look better
<mdke> i've bolded the links in the software section
<mdke> lemme know what you think
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation
<thechitowncubs> the links aren't bolded...
<mdke> no
<mdke> just the software names
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> s/links/names
<thechitowncubs> i don't like the look of that
<thechitowncubs> but thats my opinion...
<mdke> can you explain why
<mdke> i wanted your opinion :)
<thechitowncubs> looks sloppy and erratic
<mdke> ok
<mdke> any ideas about how to make the names of the programs more readable from the text? italics?
<thechitowncubs> Trying to think of a way as we speak
<thechitowncubs> i think it would look better if each description had the name of the program in the same place
<thechitowncubs> and then having the links in another place, not the first thing
<thechitowncubs> For example:
<thechitowncubs> I'm trying to think of the example :)
<thechitowncubs> lol
<thechitowncubs> i'll let you know when my idea matures a bit :)
<mdke> i know what you mean, I think its a good idea
<thechitowncubs> I don't think the link should be the first focus, i think the program should be and then the link somewhere else that is still highly noticeable
<Seveas> mdke, ping
<thechitowncubs> has anyone made a wiki team yet on launchpad?
<mdke> Seveas, sup
<mdke> thechitowncubs, no
<mdke> thechitowncubs, interesting idea
<thechitowncubs> are there plans for one :)
<mdke> (the link thing, not the LP one)
<mdke> thechitowncubs, no
<Seveas> mdke, NuN meeting in 15 minutes, you wanted me to ping you :)
<mdke> Seveas, ah thanks, I may not be able to make it I'm afraid, but Burgundavia will hopefully set out the docteam view on stuff :)
<Seveas> ok
<kbrooks> So far so good.
* kbrooks thinks he can help
* highvoltage too
<Burgundavia> any page that you think needs help, can be listed on WikiToDo
<Burgundavia> if you want to fix up a page, that is also where to go
<kbrooks> ok, Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> have any questions, just ask
<highvoltage> I've written technical documentation for schools. Troubleshooting guides and getting started guides mostly.
<Burgundavia> FileCompression and AudioCDCreation are fairly good examples
<mdke> hi highvoltage 
<Burgundavia> of what we are looking for
<highvoltage> hi mdke 
<mdke> thechitowncubs, i don't like the idea of structuring UserDocumentation by user. I think its better to structure it by subject
<thechitowncubs> both has pros and cons
<thechitowncubs> we'll see how things iron out
<mdke> in terms of finding things, I think that makes it easier
<mdke> but let's be honest: once that page becomes very long, people will use CTRL F to find stuff
<Burgundavia> people tend to be tasked based
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> and there is a wierd mind-trip involved with "novice" and "expert" stuff
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> some people don't categorize themselves well
<mdke> there is no dividing line
<thechitowncubs> scrap that idea then...
<Burgundavia> observe all the poor fools who do the expert install in Ubuntu and then mess it up
<thechitowncubs> i just thought some users looking for docs might be burdened by the vocabulary, level of difficulty surrounding the tutorial, etc
<Burgundavia> then simply the language
<Burgundavia> I have an MCSE and I still love simple docs
<mdke> yeah we need to simplify the whole document
<Burgundavia> s/MCSE/training towards an MCSE/
<highvoltage> no comment :)
<mdke> what is that?
<thechitowncubs> UserDocumentation has a bright future indeed, i'm excited to start working on it after the meeting
<Burgundavia> what I am saying is that just becuase you are an "expert" doesn't mean you don't want plain english docs
<Burgundavia> Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
<mdke> eww
* Burgundavia is sorry
<highvoltage> I always thought it was Minesweeper Consultant Solitaire Expert.
<highvoltage> but now we're going OT :)
<kbrooks> Burgundavia: why do you have a MCSE?
<Burgundavia> kbrooks, because I do
<Burgundavia> before I saw the light
<kbrooks> Burgundavia: silly you
<Burgundavia> I never want to touch another windows machine in my life
<Burgundavia> mdke, thechitowncubs just created it
<mdke> jeez
<mdke> bloody hell
<Burgundavia> it can be a subsection of the docteam
<Burgundavia> lp allows that
<mdke> this obsession with creating LP teams gets on my nerves SO much
<Burgundavia> but there is no docteam lp team
<thechitowncubs> oh :/
<thechitowncubs> obsession?
<mdke> plus, the wiki team is not "people who write docs on the wiki"
<Burgundavia> it can be
<mdke> its "people who work on technical problems on the wiki"
<thechitowncubs> its a team of wiki contributers... thats what i always looked at it as
<mdke> Burgundavia, no, because there is no reason for creating a team which includes the whole universe
<mdke> EVERYONE has access to editing the wiki
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I think it is useful
<mdke> the idea of the wiki team was to create a group if it was necessary to implement access rights
<Burgundavia> well, the people in the wiki team are the people who are heavily editing the wiki
<mdke> i think it will be used as a status symbol, like many of the other new launchpad teams, and has no purpose
<thechitowncubs> a team is a group of people working together, so a wiki team sounds ideal
<Burgundavia> and thus most likely to be trusted with those access rights
* mdke puts head in hands
<thechitowncubs> its good for notifying users of changes, stuff like that
<Burgundavia> mdke, we are eventually going to have to turn off deletion for everybody
<mdke> launchpad groups have no function except for status symbols
<Burgundavia> the team merely identifies who is actively working ont eh wiki
<mdke> Burgundavia, yes, but you can't activate that through launchpad
<Burgundavia> but as lp gets further integrated into the wiki, it will matter
<Burgundavia> the point of lp is to be "the place" for this stuff
<mdke> it will never be sufficiently integrated with the wiki to define access rights on it
<mdke> s/never/not for a long time
<thechitowncubs> what is your obbsession with access rights?
* thechitowncubs puts head in hands
<mdke> thechitowncubs, let me explain.
<thechitowncubs> sounds great
<mdke> thechitowncubs, i see the creation of groups as useful when it serves a purpose. In this case, given that the whole point of the wiki is that EVERYONE can edit and improve it, the only reason for a group would be to define those people who have extended access rights, such as the ability to delete pages, move pages, modify wiki configuration etc.
<mdke> this isn't implemented
<mdke> thus, no need for a defined group
<mdke> especially not a LP team
<thechitowncubs> i think it just promotes team work and efficiency
<mdke> what we have now is 2 wiki teams, one designed by us previously as people who take care of the structure of the wiki, another one created now, who edit the content of the wiki
<mdke> 2 teams, same name
<mdke> = bad
<mdke> this is partly the fault of lack of definition of the first team tho, not yours
<Burgundavia> ouch
<mdke> this is all my opinion of course
* mdke winks at Burgundavia 
<mdke> i haven't convinced you tho, thechitowncubs ?
<robitaille> I don't see the problem.  wiki team exist here.  Exist on the lauchpad as well as a way to track down its members, and maybe be used for other usage (mailing list...access right to more permanent wiki pages, etc.)
<mdke> the teams have different objectives as I see it
<robitaille> right now it is useless..but within 6 month LP will be the center of our Ubuntu Universe.
<thechitowncubs> The wiki team on launchpad isn't a different team in my view
<Burgundavia> I suspect that if the work needed to be done regarding wiki/lp integration, then it will happen
<mdke> thechitowncubs, ah
<mdke> thechitowncubs, well there is a difference in membership
<mdke> and I think, objectives
<robitaille> right....the wiki team on LP IS the wiki team.  You want to help...instead of having a wiki page with our members name, we have a group page on LP.
<thechitowncubs> i just started the team because there wasn't one on launchpad, and i knew there was one created
<mdke> ok but if it is going to involve taking care of the structure of the wiki, a prerequisite must be knowledge of the wiki software and organisation, rather than the writing of documentation
<thechitowncubs> fair enough
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> we need to get common objectives for the two teams then
<mdke> i mean the one team
<thechitowncubs> how large is the "current" more important wiki team?
<mdke> its not more important
<mdke> its less important if anything, because the docs are more important than fixing broken links and deleting pages and so on
<mdke> but so far we have kinda failed to define what the team is about
<thechitowncubs> Its a team of active wiki contributers that new writers/contributers can look to for question guidance on what to do and also a way of working as a team to get things done quicker without redundancy.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> sounds good
<thechitowncubs> :)
<mdke> what are we gonna do with the old wiki team?
* Burgundavia gets out his murdering axe
<mdke> careful Burgundavia, you're listed too
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> yes I know
<thechitowncubs> should robitaille be considered an administrator?
<Burgundavia> why I don't run gentoo --> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74072
<Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, if he says yes
<mdke> thechitowncubs, what is the role of an administrator?
<Burgundavia> approves new people into the group
<mdke> ah its a moderated team?
<mdke> okay
* mdke applies
<thechitowncubs> its just moderated to get to know new users and just to be more organized and intertwined
<mdke> we should think about merging this team with WikiTeam on the wiki
<mdke> thechitowncubs, yeah good idea
<thechitowncubs> mdke: sounds good to me
<mdke> change the contact address to the docteam mailing list?
<thechitowncubs> sounds good, whats the address
<Burgundavia> I will do it
<mdke> thechitowncubs, you should subscribe tho
<mdke> lots of wiki talk goes there
<thechitowncubs> alright, will do
<Burgundavia> mdke, I am not an ubuntu-doc admin, can you approve that addy to the list?
<mdke> sorry I mean WikiTalk *nudges Burgundavia*
<mdke> Burgundavia, me neither
<Burgundavia> have to wait for jerome
<robitaille> thechitowncubs: I can be administrator.  no preference one way or the other.
<Burgundavia> more admin means less likelyhood of awol people holding the whole thing up
<mdke> thechitowncubs, i've started the merge, will you edit the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam to add what you see this team doing?
<thechitowncubs> sounds good :)
* kbrooks is happy
<robitaille> can bugs be assigned to a LP team?  If we ever get a wiki "bug" via Malone...
* mdke steals kbrooks's cookies
<mdke> robitaille, yes i presume so
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and we can even own "products"
<robitaille> so should we do a Docteam team?  and send bugs to it?
<Burgundavia> yes
<kbrooks> brb
<mdke> who should the docteam team contain? svn account holders?
<robitaille> and there is that calendar things that is slowly coming online in LP.  I suspect one day, teams will send up their future meeting ammouncement via this.
<mdke> that's a bit restrictive
<mdke> yeah the calendar thing looks cool
<robitaille> and then wiki team will be a member of the doc team.  I think teams can be members of other teams.
* Burgundavia wants hula integration
<Burgundavia> so we can all have hula addys from launchpad
<mdke> problem is, if the docteam starts using baz, then the docteam group in launchpad should probably be people who have access to that repository
<thechitowncubs> this launchpad is really coming together :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> long way to go yet
<robitaille> but LP is much better than even a couple of months ago.  It's actually usable now
<mdke> more or less...
<Burgundavia> LP is going to be more usable
<Burgundavia> and it is being worked on
<mdke> who has done some sysadmin on an ubuntu system?
<Burgundavia> god knows how much money sabdfl has spent on lp so far
<Burgundavia> mdke, what are you trying to do?
<highvoltage> i have, i think. depending on the definition of sysadmin.
<mdke> i'm trying to figure out how come my cron job on the docteam server isn't working
<robitaille> mdke: I sysadmin my computer :)
<Burgundavia> does the script work?
<robitaille> and I used to a sysadmin in a previous life
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
<robitaille> is doesn't run at all?  
<Burgundavia> what isn't it doing?
<mdke> it doesn't look like it runs at all
<mdke> do i need the user in a particular group?
<mdke> also, where are the cron logs?
<robitaille> are you sure it is running at the time you think it should run?  i.e what is the time zone of the box?
<mdke> they should have their own folder
<mdke> robitaille, yeah checked
<robitaille> have you tried a very simple script?  maybe something that pipe something to a file to check if it actually runs
<mdke> the scripts work in the command line... thing is, i can't find a single log that says that something is happening at that time of day
<mdke> i'll paste the crontab
<Burgundavia> the other thing to try is to try the script in the cron job on your machine
<mdke> i have a gentoo server
<mdke> i'll try on my laptop, good idea
<mdke> this is the crontab
<mdke> root@none:/var/log # crontab -l -u ubuntu-docs
<mdke> 0 2 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
<mdke> 0 4 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome && make all && cd ../build && cp -R gnome/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> 0 6 * * * cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kde && make kall && cd ../build && cp -R kde/ /srv/docteam.ubuntu.com/www/
<mdke> it doesn't seem to even have done the first line
<mdke> trying on my laptop
<robitaille> why don't you but these commands in one script?  I'm always of multiple commands with && in one single crontab line.
<robitaille> s/^afraid^
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> but i wanted to make sure each line was done before the next one started
<mdke> what would the script be?
<robitaille> then if you remove the hour part, just keep the minute for now for testing purpose; then you can test it every couple of minute.
<robitaille> You will have 3 script, one per line:
<robitaille> #!/bin/sh
<robitaille> cd /home/ubuntu-docs/trunk && svn up
<mdke> ok
<mdke> etc
<mdke> thanks dude
<mdke> trying
<robitaille> personally I always found it cleaning to keep the crontab lines very simple.
<robitaille> s/cleaning/cleaner/
* Burgundavia is bored bored bored
<mdke> robitaille, so is this cool?
<mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:~$ crontab -l
<mdke> 0 2 * * * ./svn_up
<mdke> 0 4 * * * ./copy_gnome_to_webspace
<mdke> 0 6 * * * ./copy_kde_to_webspace
<robitaille> you need full paths to these scripts.  You have to assume very basic environment for any cron job
<mdke> argh
<mdke> sorry
<mdke> so /home/ubuntu-docs/./svn_up?
<mdke> sorry for being thick
<Burgundavia> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
<Burgundavia> assuming they are in the root of the users home dir
<robitaille> don't worry...I have done these mistakes many times before; sometimes it works, but not always
<Burgundavia> ./home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
<Burgundavia> I think
<mdke> /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up seems to work from the command line
<robitaille> yes, /home...should work
<mdke> testing now
<mdke> we'll see if it works
<mdke> robitaille, afayk, is the minutes format in the crontab ok?
<robitaille> looking at my machine
<robitaille> 00 22 * * *  /mnt/music/podcast/bashpodder.shell
<robitaille> yes, yours shuold be fine.  Are far in advance you try it?  Some machine need over a minute of no changes to the crontab to make it to work.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok i've set it to test for now
<mdke> 30 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
<mdke> 33 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_gnome_to_webspace
<mdke> 36 17 * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/copy_kde_to_webspace
<mdke> not sure if I had a clear minute ;)
<robitaille> so if you do "date", you are at 5pm on that machine?
<mdke> 17.34
<robitaille> great
* mdke looks to see
<mdke> have to give it a few minutes
* mdke crosses fingers
<robitaille> you can also you 
<robitaille> use "at" to test scripts
<robitaille> "at now"
<kbrooks> at?
<robitaille> then cut and pase your script  /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  then do a control-d
<robitaille> man at :)
<thechitowncubs> lol
<robitaille> I love at..  You can do things like "at now +1min" to run script in the future
<robitaille> I would offer to actually login on that box to debug it....but I'll be gone for the next week.  Maybe when I return.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> thanks robitaille 
<mdke> it hasn't worked :(
<mdke> script looks alright
<mdke> cron is obviously just not starting the job
<mdke> nor on my laptop
<mdke> oh hang on
<mdke> it has worked on my laptop
<robitaille> have you tried without the hour for now:
<robitaille> 50 *  * * * /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up
<mdke> trying now
<robitaille> that would eliminate a time issue
<mdke> ubuntu-docs@none:/home/matt$ crontab -l
<mdke> 50 * * * * mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test
<mdke> thechitowncubs, ok i removed the bold from the software section and tried something else - like it?
<thechitowncubs> I like that a lot ore
<thechitowncubs> more
<thechitowncubs> a lot more user friendly :)
<mdke> robitaille, in my /var/log/syslog on my laptop I can see the cronjob working
<mdke> not on the server though
<mdke> thechitowncubs, cool
<mdke> robitaille, the mkdir /home/ubuntu-docs/test/ hasn't worked
<robitaille> i'm trying a crontab on my hoary to see if I get something in my logs
<robitaille> just to double check:  chmod u+x /home/ubuntu-docs/svn_up  ?
<Burgundavia> robitaille, are you not subscribed to the whole wiki anymore?
<robitaille> I removed earlier myself since I'll be gone for the week.  I don't want 1000 emails waiting for me next weekend
<Burgundavia> ah
<thechitowncubs> smart
<mdke> robitaille, i did the +x
<mdke> you can always use RecentChanges rather than email subscriptions
<mdke> its a lot better than on the previous wiki software
<kbrooks> someone in #ubuntu?
<robitaille> yes, on hoary crontab leaves something in /var/log/syslog
<robitaille> Jul 22 14:54:01 localhost /USR/SBIN/CRON[14643] : (daniel) CMD (/home/daniel/test.sh)
<Burgundavia> RecentChanges is actually usable
<mdke> robitaille, yeah i see it on my laptop
<mdke> robitaille, you think i need to add the user to some kind of group?
<robitaille> mdke:  I don't think so.  Unless the setup of that box is more restrictive than a normal hoary install?
<robitaille> I don't even know where to look for that.
<mdke> i guess its a server install
<mdke> he did a warty install then upped it to hoary
<thechitowncubs> audiocdcreation updated
<mdke> robitaille, just noticed something that rules that out
<mdke> robitaille, the root crontab isn't running either
<mdke> i think
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-28
<mdke> double checking
<mdke> on my home box, even the longer crontab involving the && has worked fine
<Burgundavia> fun
<Burgundavia> more harddrive stress testing, this time provided by my landlord
<kbrooks> lol
* mpt wakes up
<thechitowncubs> lol
<mdke> robitaille, i have an idea, which will involve a certain amount of grovelling at your feet and apologising for wasting your time
* mdke says in a small voice "the daemon wasn't started"
<robitaille> yes?
* mdke coughs
<robitaille> the daemon wasn't started???? sigh  :)
<mdke> sorry!
<mdke> seriously sorry
<mpt> hey Burgundavia
<robitaille> no problem.  to tell you the truth, I have never faced that problem.  my cron daemon have always work on machines I tried crons on
<mdke> robitaille, yeah, it gets started when you install it
<mdke> still, should have thought of that
<mdke> if nothing is working, think about the basics...
<Burgundavia> salut mpt 
<mpt> Burgundavia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec looks remarkably similar to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp 
<Burgundavia> mpt, ironically, I hadn't read localhelp recently
<Burgundavia> but yes
<mdke> combine the two!
<mpt> Burgundavia: I'd rather have a different license though :-)
<mdke> Burgundavia, thechitowncubs, robitaille, mpt, what do you think of the table of contents on UserDocumentation?
<Burgundavia> mpt, what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> mdke, I like it
<mdke> not too crowded?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> wouldn't want to make it any bigger
<thechitowncubs> I think its nice
<mdke> i mean, not too crowded with the other text on the left?
<mdke> i like the box myself as well
<kbrooks> brb
<Burgundavia> mdke, combining the two means that my forked doc becomes our default page
<mdke> Burgundavia, well the team hasn't said that LocalHelp will be the default page
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes, but local help strongly hints that (and I happen to agree)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but the team has not discussed it
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> maybe for the next meeting?
<mdke> ok
<mdke> mpt?
<mpt> Burgundavia: GPL instead of GFDL
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> the docs are all GFDL and CC by sa 2.0
<mpt> Burgundavia: That way (1) it can contain code (and help will eventually need code for "Do this for me" etc), and (2) it'll always be usable by Debian
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> need to discuss with the doc team
<Burgundavia> we can tri license
<mpt> and (3) there doesn't need to be a user-visible link to a list of contributors that is irrelevant to people using the help
<kbrooks> huh?
<mdke> user-visible links to contributors = bad
<kbrooks> mpt: where?
<kbrooks> show me a page?
<mdke> kbrooks, any docteam page
<kbrooks> one example?
<mdke> the userguide
<mdke> the faqguide
<mdke> the styleguide
<mdke> the quickguide
<mdke> etc
<mdke> all of them
<Burgundavia> ok, the next agenda is up
<mdke> Burgundavia, good
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda?action=show
<mdke> my view is that LocalHelp should have its own link in the menu (Start Here) whereas the other docs should be accessible via another link to a document index
<Burgundavia> that is another link
<Burgundavia> better to have a good default start page
<mdke> erm i didn't explain well
<mpt> Burgundavia: See http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn't_GFDL for an example that may be more familiar to you
<Burgundavia> mpt, the GFDL and CC by sa 2.0 issues are known to me
<Burgundavia> I have been involved in several discussions at WP about the GFDL
<mpt> ooooh, the "by" in by-sa has the same problem, doesn't it
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> neither is DFSG-free
<mpt> is there a CC license that is?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> the issues with CC and the GFDL seem to be mostly stupid wording choices
<mdke> yay the cronjob is workin
<mdke> g
<mpt> http://creativecommons.org/license/meet-the-licenses :-(
<Burgundavia> boo, blam is borked on breezy
<Burgundavia> mpt, what is wrong with that page?
<mdke> Burgundavia, why don't you work on localhelp and abandon the fork? wouldn't it essentially be the same work?
<mpt> Burgundavia: Every license has "Attribution" in its name
<Burgundavia> mdke, local help is a spec
<mdke> Burgundavia, i mean, work on implementing it
<Burgundavia> sure, I can merge them
<mdke> or was it agreed that localhelp was breezy+1
<mdke> ?
<mdke> i seem to remember sabdfl saying it was out of reach
<Burgundavia> hadn't heard anything
<Burgundavia> it is not out of reach
<mdke> at the meeting
<Burgundavia> which one?
<mdke> the only one we've had which involved sabdfl
<mdke> we reviewed localhelp
<mpt> I thought that was the HelpfulHelp spec
<mpt> most of which *is* out of reach for Breezy
<mdke> ooh yeah
<mdke> sorry!
<mpt> LocalHelp is a Simple Matter of Writing
<mdke> ok then maybe you can merge burg's idea and LocalHelp
<mdke> sounds like a cool idea to me
<mdke> but you should make sure you use material in the faqguide so that you don't have to write, just select the relevant bits
<mdke> and then edit them as appropriate
<mpt> I'd love to have 48 hours in each day and spend 12 of them writing help
<Burgundavia> I am about half done the spec of mine
<mdke>  [23:23:56]  < Burgundavia> mpt, what is wrong with that page?
<mdke> argh
<mdke> sorry bad paste
<Burgundavia> and to be honest, most of the faq guide is useless
<mdke> mpt, Burgundavia can help you out! together you'll have 48 hours
<Burgundavia> and most is commandline junk
<mpt> but I literally have sabdfl looking my shoulder right now, and he's probably wondering why I'm not doing Launchpad work
<mdke> Burgundavia, the popularity of ubuntuguide proves you wrong IMO, it is not just used for the common stuff
<mpt> looking over my shoulder, rather
<Burgundavia> mpt, convince your employer to pay me and then I can do it
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> mdke, not really
<Burgundavia> what people want is easy solutions
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu guide is one of them
<Burgundavia> and the ubuntuguide appeals to a very specific set fo users, that doesn't include most of our parents
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm not saying its perfect, i'm just saying people want answers to many questions, not just the most common ones, although those are the most important
<mdke> sure
<mpt> and they don't know which questions are common and which aren't
* mpt bangs his drum
<mdke> i agree that common is a good idea
<mdke> mpt, i agree with you
<mdke> brb
<mpt> ubuntuguide wouldn't work for my mother
<Burgundavia> no
<mdke> agreed 100%
<mdke> but that doesn't mean its "useless" as corey said
<Burgundavia> that is what LocalHelp and CommonProblems is for
<mdke> i think they are both valuable
<Burgundavia> the market that Ubuntu is trying to move into and linux is traditionally weak in, is our parents
<Burgundavia> and that is why we should really target our energies there
<mdke> is it not clear that I agree with you?
<Burgundavia> okl
<Burgundavia> o
<Burgundavia> ok, even
<mdke> good
<mdke> i was just challenging your use of the word "useless"
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> there are also better ways of getting the info across to the audience that ubuntuguide targets
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia> geez, looking at WP stats
<Burgundavia> 25k editors. Only 1300 with over 100 edits
<Burgundavia> and probably about 100 with over 10k edits (like yours truly)
<mpt> Burgundavia: The Long Tail, right?
<Burgundavia> yes
* mpt wonders if he's one of those with >100
<mpt> must be pretty close to that
<Burgundavia> rofl
<mdke> i've done 1
<mdke> ph33r
<Burgundavia> some days I used to do 250 a day
* Burgundavia is truly truly crazy
<mpt> That's more than one every three minutes
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> mostly cleanup stuff
<mdke> i think both those specs are really cool
<mdke> i wanna make that clear :)
<mdke> maybe put them out for discussion on the mailing list? that way people can read and think about them before the meeting
<Burgundavia> LocalHelp and CommonProblems?
* mpt steals sabdfl's chair
* Burgundavia closes the 100th "FF segfaults" bug
<Burgundavia> bloody dups
<mpt> erh, we still don't have a "did you mean..." dup-finder in Malone
<Burgundavia> you need one
<mpt> I've had three dups on one of the bugs I reported, and that Malone only has about 1500 bug reports in it so far
<Burgundavia> and it needs to be ajax cool, so that it doesn't require another click
<mpt> mmm
<mdke> ok i'm off to bed
<mdke> night
<mpt> tchau mdke
<mpt> ah crud, GPL isn't good for help either
<Burgundavia> not really
<mpt> "For instance, anyone publishing the book on paper would have to either include machine-readable "source code" of the book along with each printed copy, or provide a written offer to send the "source code" later."
<Burgundavia> much easier to just put a C
<Burgundavia> why does our copyright system make it hard to share stuff? 
<mpt> http://creativecommons.org/license/publicdomain is looking more and more attractive
<Burgundavia> I put most of my works in the PD
<Burgundavia> too much effort to license
<mpt> Is PD DFSG-free? :-)
<Burgundavia> rofl
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  there was an argument at that VLUG meeting a couple of months ago against putting stuff in the PD vs other license...  But I forgot was it was...
<Burgundavia> the issue with PD is that then evil corps can do what they want
<robitaille> I wonder if the slides of that talk are up somewhere
<Burgundavia> that was the linux licensing talk that I missed
<robitaille> yes
<nalioth> so how do i become an ordained ubuntu documentarian?
<Burgundavia> nalioth, you exist and write docs
<Burgundavia> and therefor you are
<Burgundavia> nalioth, you comfortable with xml and docbook?
<nalioth> so who's the pope?
<Burgundavia> some freaky german guy
<Burgundavia> mpt, how do you want to merge those 2 specs?
<nalioth> Burgundavia: umm, errr, i was gonna stick with the wiki
<Burgundavia> WikiToDo lists stuff that needs to be worked on
<nalioth> pope = supreme overlord of docteam
<Burgundavia> if there is nothing there that strikes your fancy, then almost everything needs work
<Burgundavia> the docteam has no pope
<Burgundavia> we are an anarchy
<Burgundavia> AudioCDCreation and FileCompression are good examples of pages
<nalioth> i was gonna approach the wiki with a team of elves
<mpt> Burgundavia: How about the "Document plan" from yours + the hierarchy from mine? :-)
<nalioth> document plan?
<Burgundavia> ok, I will merge and we can work on LocalHelp
<mpt> With baz archives we'll be able to merge from each other whenever we like
<nalioth> i'm a total droooling n00b when it comes to official documentation
<Burgundavia> nalioth, easiest to pick a page you want to work on and then start hacking
<Burgundavia> and then ask us when are done
<nalioth> but i have an understanding of what grandma wants to read when she starts her new ubuntu box that grandchild gave her
<Burgundavia> yes
<nalioth> so basically, there is no "official docteam"? (i'm lost atm)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> there is, we just don't have a chief poobah
<Burgundavia> mpt, the doc team already works like a baz archive
<nalioth> so how does one join the "official team"? (and learn all these big words)
<Burgundavia> edit some docs
<Burgundavia> the wiki is very low barrier
<Burgundavia> for our svn repo, make some good patches and then ask for access
<nalioth> i have been editing some docs
<Burgundavia> welcome aboard!
<nalioth> quite unofficially, lol
<Burgundavia> I think you are supposed to be an ubuntu member, but whatever
<nalioth> i am, but whatever (thought wikis were open to anyone)
<Burgundavia> they are
<Burgundavia> the doc team mostly just steers the wiki
<nalioth> so you want me to send the interested elvi in here then?
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<Burgundavia> thechitowncubs, might be nice to split the kde on gnome config stuff into another page
<nalioth> ok
<mpt> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2005-March/000357.html
<mpt> http://people.debian.org/~evan/ccsummary.html
<Burgundavia> mpt, should Printing be Printing and Scanning
<Burgundavia> mpt, indeed, I have read those
<thechitowncubs> Burgundavia: ya that might work
<mpt> Burgundavia: Possibly, or change "Disks and storage devices" to "Disks and devices"
<mpt> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2005-March/000369.html <-- we could use this
<Burgundavia> well, we would be tri licensing
<Burgundavia> just add GPL to the two we already have
<Liz> sigh...thats better
<mpt> What would that gain us?
<mpt> Liz: Are you Maori?
<Liz> yes i am
<Burgundavia> debian can ship us as GPL
<mpt> Burgundavia: I meant, what would the GFDL gain us
<Burgundavia> we already have it, we might as well keep it
<Burgundavia> I had another thought with the help
<Burgundavia> change /a/your
<mpt> Burgundavia: We couldn't use any existing GFDL+CC-BY-SA stuff
<mpt> because all its contributors haven't given permission for their work to be published under the GPL
<Burgundavia> you want to change to just cc-by
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I am in favour of simply doing nothing for now
<mpt> And the trouble with not having the GPL is that a lot of help should actually be in dialogs etc themselves, not in documents
<mpt> So while we write help, we should also report bugs on moving sentences from that help to the software
<mpt> And starting a new document is a good time to make license decisions :-)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> what did you think of the change from A to MY or YOUR for a prefix in the help
<mpt> I don't like that
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> Using "my" makes sense for form controls, where a person is carrying out stuff about their stuff
<mpt> e.g. "[/]  Encrypt my home directory"
<mpt> but where you're explaining stuff *to* a person, second person is more appropriate
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> "The lock of CoreyBurger2 timed out 0 minute(s) ago" -- still editing?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<Burgundavia> done
<mpt> hmmm
<Burgundavia> hack away
<mpt> Do you think "Using a digital camera" would be better under "Music, photos, and video"?
<Burgundavia> might be
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> users don't consider it a device
<Burgundavia> and music player should be under music
* Burgundavia wants live collaborative editing on the wiki
<mpt> Does Ubuntu have any faxing software?
<Burgundavia> efax
<Burgundavia> but it is ugly as shit
<Burgundavia> gfax, also ugly
<mpt> Neither of those appear in the menus, yay
* rob^ pokes head in
<Burgundavia> we have no fax program, basically
<mgalvin> we have fax software just not pretty fax software
<mgalvin> no easy to use fax software, sadly
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> saw a link on the forums. some guy completely redid the audacity interface
<Burgundavia> only a mockup, but it looked quite nice
<rob^> mgalvin, just looking at Multimedia Codecs
<rob^> I guess they are commands, so probably should have the <command> tag
<mgalvin> my thoughts exactly, and i just used that section as a test run to see if it looks ok
<rob^> I was planning to remove all the "sudo apt-get" stuff though
<mgalvin> right ok, forgot about that, well good thing i didn't bother to do more
<rob^> see Smeg (Applications-> System Utilities) for an example
<rob^> I mentioned it under the version revision, but yeah for the rest of the commands, sure
<rob^> speaking of changing everything to synaptic/kynaptic, what do you think about it?
<mpt> What's Audacity?
<nalioth> mpt: an audio editor
<mpt> oh, I installed it at some point
<Burgundavia>  They are unlikely to include tools like hot-babe, and, thus, may be considered safer versions to use in situations where somebody may get offended.
<Burgundavia> Well, OK, perhaps we can't be too sure with Ubuntu. 
<rob^> yep
<mpt> gtk1 like gfax
<mpt> there's a tool like hot-babe?
<mpt> like -> called
<rob^> Burgundavia, were you refering to me?
<Burgundavia> "The Debian developers raised the obvious, predictable objection to the inclusion of this utility: the associated images were covered by a non-free license."
<Burgundavia> rob^, no
<Burgundavia> http://lwn.net/Articles/113644/
<rob^> ok np
<mpt> haha
<mpt> This is like the Gnome Certification being discussed recently on desktop-devel
<rob^> mpt, http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/download.php
<rob^> dam, now I need to find something to chew resources
<mpt> haha
<rob^> yay, I just ran "yes" in a terminal!
<rob^> man thats funny as..
<mpt> rob^: How does one get it to run?
<mpt> I've installed it, but as per bloody usual, it's not in the menus
<rob^> you need to run it from a terminal
<rob^> hot-babe
<rob^> I have a one line shell in my top gnome menu bar
<rob^> I'll tell you what, shes easy
<mpt> Also too large for this screen
<rob^> yeah? mine is only < 10cm high
<mpt> Yes, I was expecting ~2cm high
<rob^> but then I'm using a 20inch screen
<Burgundavia> mpt, you realize the wiki is already gfdl and cc by sa 2.0 ?
<mpt> no, I didn't
<Burgundavia> hmm, legalese doesn't mention it
<Burgundavia> it should
<mpt> the wiki doc is a spec, not the help itself
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> but the various other docs on the wiki
<mpt> Burgundavia: http://www.sourcecontrol.net/?action=pushaccount
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> currently baz is acting up, because I am running the crack of the day
<Burgundavia> will try later today
<mpt> ok, past 9pm time to leave, and going rafting tomorrow, so I may not be online
<mpt> wi-fi at the hotel is apparently broken anyway
<mpt> so I'll be back on Monday, perhaps earlier
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> you in brazil?
<mpt> yah
<Burgundavia> lucky bastard
<mpt> Launchpad sprintathon
<mpt> ttfn
<mgalvin> rob^ regarding your question before, it was about using synaptic right? i think it's proabably a good idea to use it since it is a gui and is easier for noobs and windows switcher to use to ease their transition even more
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> what do you think of the example though?
<mgalvin> sorry, which was it again
<rob^> umm
<rob^> smeg
<jsgotangco> salut
<rob^> theres an explination in "Installing Applications" also
<jsgotangco> is smeg to be included?
<rob^> well, its in there
<mgalvin> jsgotangco, yes, it is going to be in main, we should mention how to use it
<jsgotangco> i mean inclusion in main?
<jsgotangco> WHOA
<mgalvin> yup, iirc
* jsgotangco used to remember to offer writing a small manual for smeg but got the trashing
<Burgundavia> smeg is going to be the default menu editing app
<jsgotangco> im going to take a bath brb
<rob^> hey has anyone here ever installed gentoox MCE on an xbox?
<mgalvin> rob^, it sounds good, one suggestion... i think we should also mention to click the search button and enter the app name so that user know of it and don't have to manually scan the list themselves to find the package they wich to install
<mgalvin> s/wich/wish/
<rob^> yeah I was thinking that, wasn't sure how to fit it in though
<rob^> .
<mgalvin> add it between what is now 2 and 3 (so searching would now be 3) and say something like... Alternitively you can click the search button, enter the application name in the text field and synaptic will show you a much shorter list from which to select your application for installation. This can be much easier that having to look through the very long list of applications on your own. (something like that)
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> hey, is X sane in breezy again?
<rob^> I noticed the took that out of their topic
<mgalvin> not sure, i think it is
<Burgundavia> no
<rob^> ah dam
<Burgundavia> -devel still says X is broken
<mgalvin> ok guess not :-/
<Burgundavia> mileage varies
<rob^> so it does
<Burgundavia> I have only had one issue
<rob^> I had to manually configure it last time I used breezy, but I take it that its really broken atm
* rob^ sobs.. I want to install gentoox MCE, but I dont want to rm all my media nor to I want to sit here all day backing it up to dvd
<rob^> what a shitty way to do things, bloody gentoo users..
<rob^> bloody xbox
<mgalvin> rob^ did you want to add that point on synaptic search, or shall i?
<rob^> go right ahead, I'm about to go out for lunch
<mgalvin> ok, i'll add it in then
<nalioth> breezy wont install on my new G5 imac
<thechitowncubs> nalioth, why do you get mac's if you don't use mac osx?
<nalioth> thechitowncubs: i use OSX on my newer macs (with lots and lots of fink)
<thechitowncubs> ic ic
<nalioth> fink and darwinports
<ed1t> yo yo yo
<nalioth> ed1t: you makin a rap record?
<ed1t> heh 
<ed1t> jizzle dizzle...my songs the shizzle
<ed1t> hows that for the beginning?
<nalioth> thought you was starting with yo yo yo
<ed1t> yea that too
<ed1t> nalioth, u want couple of songs on my album? :P
<nalioth> ed1t: sure thing
<ed1t> nalioth, u have any ideas on ur opening?
<venda> african greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<venda> Hi, Burgundavia what was the end of the FAQGuide debate?
<Burgundavia> I have forked the FAQGuide
<Burgundavia> and am now merging my fork into LocalHelp
<rob^> how stupid can you be?
<Burgundavia> rob^, that was very very rude
<Burgundavia> I ask you to retract that
<venda> Where is local help being developed
<rob^> well, really.. you dont get your own way so you "fork" it
<Burgundavia> current, in the head of mpt and myself
<Burgundavia> rob^, again, I ask you to retract your statement
<rob^> you really are childish
<venda> Burgundavia: why fork?
<Burgundavia> please don't call me names
<Burgundavia> because I disagree with where the doc is going
<Burgundavia> there is a place for both dcos
<rob^> you mean: you cant work with others so you go off on your own
<Burgundavia> no
<rob^> yes
<venda> Burgundavia: so how will the content of the document differ?
<Burgundavia> I am respecting your right to work that the faqguide
<Burgundavia> mpt and I are going to hash out between LocalHelp and CommonProblemsGuideSpec
<rob^> no, your forking the faqguide because you didnt get your own way
<Burgundavia> rob^, no, I am not
<rob^> yes you are
<Burgundavia> I am forking the guide because I don't believe that it is going where I think we need a doc
<venda> Burgundavia: I realize the outline is different but how will the content differ?
<rob^> its pretty silly, really
<rob^> mate, you need to grow up
<Burgundavia> rob^, I have respected you. Please don't call me names
<venda> rob^: leave it please, he has the right to fork. Nothing anyone or any amount of moaning will do 
<venda> Burgundavia: <venda> Burgundavia: I realize the outline is different but how will the content differ?
<rob^> thats the problem with ubuntu sometimes..
<Burgundavia> rob^, the right to fork in an inherent right
<Burgundavia> part of the DFSG
<rob^> people like Burgundavia 
<venda> rob^: its a problem of FOSS in general
<Burgundavia> rob^, please don't call me names
<thechitowncubs> this is ridiculous
<rob^> well what did you expect?
<venda> Burgundavia: <venda> Burgundavia: I realize the outline is different but how will the content differ?
<rob^> you didnt get your own way, so you chuck a childish hissy fit and fork it
<Burgundavia> the common problems guide/local help will be firmly targeted at Aunt Tillie
<Burgundavia> rob^, that is rude. Again, I ask you to retract
<rob^> had you have worked with others from the beginning this wouldnt have happened
<rob^> its the truth, Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> I am sorry I came late
<thechitowncubs> rob^: how old are you?
<venda> Burgundavia: just /ignore him.
<rob^> thechitowncubs, probably older then you
<thechitowncubs> then thats pretty sad
<venda> Burgundavia: I want to understand the difference and scope and angle of LocalHelp
<Burgundavia> LocalHelp is a spec developed by mpt
<venda> Yes
<rob^> I'm really starting to get sick of this joke that is the docteam..
<Burgundavia> basically reimagining our yelp front page
<venda> I have seen the spec
<Burgundavia> I had completely forgotten about it
<Burgundavia> but mpt said that we should probably merge our ideas, as the outlines are basically identical
<venda> Burgundavia: yes
<Burgundavia> you can see my current spec at CommonProblemsGuideSpec
<venda> Burgundavia: yes I have seen that
<Burgundavia> mpt and I will bang heads together before the next meeting
<Burgundavia> where we are going to discuss the yelp frontpage
<Burgundavia> and the various options
<venda> Burgundavia: how do you propose that this document will remodel the default yelp page?
<Burgundavia> only if the docteam agrees
<Burgundavia> the doc will exist, regardless
<Burgundavia> it is one option I intend to bring to the table next week
<venda> Burgundavia: I see the note on the meeting
<Burgundavia> did you have any thoughts about it?
<venda> If I get it right, what you are proposing is that LocalHelp will be the default page of yelp, is that correct?
<Burgundavia> that is one of the ideas I intend to present
<venda> I need to visualize it
<venda> my concern with this approach is that it kind of blocks out other documents, like those from GNOME
* venda is not sure that he is seeing it yet
<Burgundavia> indeed
<venda> indeed what, indeed it will or indeed I do not visualize it yet :-)
<Burgundavia> we would need to make it easy to get to other docs
<robitaille> what about the other docs currently in yelp's top page:  the about, release notes, user guide.   Shouldn't they be linked to from somewhere?
<robitaille> or CommonProblemsGuideSpec will be an extra link there?
<venda> Burgundavia: I am not sure that is a good approach. I agree that the top page in yelp is not good, but it should not be replaced with a single document
<Burgundavia> mpt suggested that I merged CommonProblems into LocalHelp
<Burgundavia> night robitaille 
<Burgundavia> good night, I should say
<venda> Burgundavia: would it not be better to just have a list of documents in the from page
<robitaille> but local help seems rather long to be the top page in help.
<venda> Burgundavia: that way docs like release notes, User Guide, Quick Guide and Local Help and FAQ Guide share the top page
<venda> Burgundavia: and there are still links to GNOME docs and other docs
<Burgundavia> it raises the ugly issue of finding help
<Burgundavia> which a bunch of links really doesn't do
<robitaille> venda:  that I can see.
<Burgundavia> mdke, you awake yet?
<robitaille> any news on the front of a search engine for yelp? wasn't that been thrown upstream?
<venda> Burgundavia: yes, but I think that when people see clear links and titles on the yelp top page, with short abstracts, I think it will work
<Burgundavia> robitaille, there was a patch, but it was part of a larger patch
<Burgundavia> and thus was rejected
<robitaille> sigh
<Burgundavia> and gnome is now past feature freeze for .12
* Burgundavia sighs as well
<robitaille> but the request was done before the freeze :)
<venda> Burgundavia: why dont you and mpt create a folder in trunk or branch and hack there?
<Burgundavia> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-devel-list/2005-July/msg00005.html
<Burgundavia> we might be able to locally patch yelp
<venda> Burgundavia: I am not sure that I would like to see the top page of Yelp replaced by one document. I think that page is a portal to all docs that are GNOME/Debian/GNU/Ubuntu/etc.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> if we can do it right, it would be great
<venda> sure no problem with a different approach
<venda> [08:08]  <venda> Burgundavia: why dont you and mpt create a folder in trunk or branch and hack there?
<jsgotangco> venda: ping?
<venda> pong dong bong
<jsgotangco> hehehe i'll pm you
<venda> wazup jsgotangco 
<venda> kk
<jsgotangco> hmmm room is quiet at this time...
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> it wasn't quiet earlier....
<Burgundavia> rofl
<robitaille> what's the time of the next doc-team meeting?  /topic on ubuntu-meeting and the wiki are 8 hours apart
<jsgotangco> 14UTC
<robitaille> ok
<jsgotangco> we switch from 14UTC and 22UTC
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> 7 am
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> i attend 6am meetings
<jsgotangco> :P
<Burgundavia> true
* Burgundavia is not a morning person
<robitaille> time to go to bed and into vacation mode.  I'll see you all in a week once I'm  back in town.
* Burgundavia is headed to Salt Spring tomorrows
<Burgundavia> see you all sunday
<robitaille> I'll have at the ferry terminal (we're going to Galiano)
<robitaille> /s/have/wave
<robitaille> is the market on Saturday or Sunday at Saltspring?
<jsgotangco> nice people will be having a a good weekend except me
<rwabel> mdke: thanks
<rwabel> mdke: I just came to me mind, that we could or should write somewhere thanks to the ubuntu forum and from whereever we have found howto's and help. what do you think?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> also a link to the howto index on the forum
<rwabel> where is the best place to write it?
<mdke> not sure, first paragraph?
<rwabel> that sounds good for me
<rwabel> can you do that? I'll then add the ressource
<mdke> i don't think "thanks" is needed
<mdke> only a link
<rwabel> well I've also found some help in the german and french forum/wiki
<mdke> good
<rwabel> can you make the change in the first paragraph?
<rwabel> I'll add the other links 
<mdke> i'll have a look
<rwabel> thanks
<mdke> the page should only link to english language docs tho
<rwabel> that's kinda a problem
<mdke> the other language pages should link to the other wikis and forums
<mdke> a problem?
<rwabel> right, but it's somehow not fair to "copy" from a french forum and not mention it
<mdke> that's not true
<rwabel> no?
<mdke> its all opensource
<mdke> too many references to where the docs came from will dilute the page
<mdke> what we want is to have a page which is totally focused on documentation IMHO
<rwabel> right
<mdke> so links to other useful english language docs is ok, but if we keep saying where information has come from, that will not work
<rwabel> I was just a bit concerned about beeing unfair.
<rwabel> then it's okay
<mdke> rwabel, if you take information from places, note it on the page that the documentation is on (e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackupYourSystem)
<mdke> that way, authors get credit
<mdke> but not the index page
<rwabel> ok
<highvoltage> where do I send the gpg-signed code of conduct? JaneC?
<rwabel> sometimes it's hard to find the original source :-)
<mdke> highvoltage, to mako
<highvoltage> mdke: thanks
<rwabel> highvoltage: good question...and how does it work?
<mdke> highvoltage, its all on the community/process page
<mdke> highvoltage, you can also upload it to launchpad
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/
<rwabel> mdke: I'll have a look at the whole code od conduct once...it's a bit complilcated as it seems in the first place
<rwabel> mdke: about the BackupYourSystem, he copied it 1:1 :-) most of my added howto's are a bit adapted or "improved"
<rwabel> mdke: but I'll see where I can put the thanks
<mdke> i copied it 1:1 ;)
<highvoltage> mdke: thanks again. i can't believe i haven't seen that before.
<mdke> put thanks at the bottom of the guide
<mdke> highvoltage, np, the website is quite helpful :)
<rwabel> mdke: ahh ok
<highvoltage> sorry, perhaps this is another silly question. where's the ubuntite wiki page? i couldn't find it with the search.
<mdke> not sure there is one
<mdke> if you sign the code of conduct and upload to launchpad, it will 
<mdke> call you an "ubuntite"
<rwabel> how do I sign it?
<rwabel> I got the .txt.gpg file
<highvoltage> how do i upload my gpg fingerprint to the ubuntu site? I tried gpg --send-keys $fingerprint, but it didn't work.
<highvoltage> it gives a list like this:
<highvoltage> gpg: "29D6" not a key ID: skipping
<highvoltage> gpg: "6CBF" not a key ID: skipping
<mdke> highvoltage, which ubuntu site?
<mdke> remember the first rule: don't upload your key until you're at least intermediate in the ways of gpg :)
<highvoltage> <sigh> ok. i'm a bit overeager to sign. i'll guess I'll wait then
<highvoltage> the one i tried was on launchpad, and it complained about my fingerprint not being inhttp://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6CBF29D6&op=get
<mdke> highvoltage, ok fair enough. You need to upload the key to a keyserver before launchpad accepts it... but its not a good idea until you've read all the gpg documentation, because if you get something wrong, it'll be permanent
<mdke> i'm passing on lessons owned from my own mistakes here
<highvoltage> ok, i'll take that advice.
<nalioth_zZz> highvoltage: i believe you upload your fingerprint via launchpad
<nalioth> and yes, education re gpg is a great investment (i've made a few mistakes, too)
<highvoltage> nalioth: yes, i'm going to wait a while before doing that. at the moment i'm getting used to thunderbird behaving a bit differently.
<highvoltage> perhaps this is a good time to get used to mutt.. hehe.
<nalioth> highvoltage: are you gonna be using a gpg frontend (kgpg, seahorse, etc)?
<highvoltage> nalioth: i don't think so. at the moment i'm just using the gpg command as in the gpg manual.
<nalioth> highvoltage: CLI is always best
* nalioth disdaines GUIs
<mdke> for gpg cli is the way forward
<highvoltage> i'm very neutral when it comes to cli vs gui.
<highvoltage> i enjoy using both, although I probably use cli most of the time.
<mdke> gui is important for ubuntu
<highvoltage> i advocate free software a lot, so it's important for me to have all the great gui software to show off.
<mdke> but for gpg the cli teaches you what is going on, and there is no good gpg frontend for gnome imho
<HrdwrBoB> no, there isn't
<HrdwrBoB> gpg on the cli is also fairly cryptic
<HrdwrBoB> it requires knowledge of the way the whole thing works
<mdke> yep
<nalioth> and sometimes the GUI fails miserably
<HrdwrBoB> which isn't totally a bad thing, but not the way you really want an app to be
<mdke> well i think enigmail is ok
<mdke> but seahorse blows
<nalioth> enigmail is transparent
<nalioth> you guys know about biglumber?
<mdke> not much
<highvoltage> nope
<mdke> what do you wanna know/
<nalioth> is the "create a keyring" option worth doing? i guess thats so folks can sign your key online?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> maybe its for creating a web of trust
<nalioth> i prefer to sign keys on my box, then --send-keys the whole mess
<mdke> where is the create a keyring option?
<nalioth> i just made a new entry for myself on biglumber and it keeps goin thru different options for me
<mdke> hmm
<nalioth> on your edit page, i'd assume
<mdke> not sure mate
<nalioth> best to leave it blank (i'd rather users USE their CLI, heh
<jsgotangco> man the DDP list is riddled with spam heh
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-29
<rob^> mgalvin ping
<mgalvin> rob^: pong
<rob^> hey
<rob^> I just synaptic-ed Multimedia Codecs
<rob^> I used <para> tags between each package
<rob^> does it look a little odd to you?
<mgalvin> yea i saw
<mgalvin> well, a little but i am not sure exactly what i feel needs tweaking
<rob^> I think it seems a little too spaced out
<rob^> I just wanted to get your opinion, as I wasn't sure either
<mgalvin> yea, and i am thinking what may be the way to make it look and read best
<mgalvin> it pretty much says what it needs to say, but we may be able to make it look a little better/clearer
<rob^> yeah
* mgalvin fork() thoughtd
<mgalvin> i will think about it more
<rob^> cool
<rob^> so will I
<rob^> thanks
<mgalvin> sounds good
<mgalvin> no
<mgalvin> np
<rob^> how can i force a line break with docbook?
<rob^> <literallayout>?
<mgalvin> rob^: that should do the trick
<rob^> yeah, looks good :)
<mgalvin> g'night all
<jsgotangco> heh what a boring sunday
<rob^> hmm not for me
<rob^> lots of faqguide changes :)
<rob^> and I have an early copy of the new Linux Australia podcast to listen too
<rob^> to^
<jsgotangco> wow pretty exciting im rebuiling my svn at the moment heh
<jsgotangco> yeah noticed lots of changes on svn
<jsgotangco> i gotta help jeffsch with the stylguide...
<rob^> :)
<littlepaul> searched the list but still not found an viewer (like yelp) for ubuntu-docs. any hint? 
<mgalvin> littlepaul: I'm not quite sure i understand, but you generally don
<mgalvin> don't use yelp...
<mgalvin> the docs are in xml and you need to build them and view the in you web browser for now
<littlepaul> mgalvin, is there a howto? i will search the list for further information
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<mgalvin> also
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted
<mgalvin> but the easy way is checkout the docs..
<mgalvin> cd gnome
<mgalvin> make all
<mgalvin> or cd kfe
<mgalvin> kde
<mgalvin> make all
<littlepaul> thx for help
<mgalvin> np, glad to help
<mgalvin> littlepaul: also make sure you, sudo apt-get install xsltproc docbook-xsl docbook-defguide
<littlepaul> a good hint ;-)
<mgalvin> yea, those might help a little ;)
<littlepaul> gtgn, bye and thx
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-30
<squinn> It's been forever, docteam.
<squinn> I've got some patches, should I just send them to the list?
<Burgundavia> mdke, when you get up, can you look at --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianRosettaDone?action=show
<Burgundavia> salut thechitowncubs jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut
<Burgundavia> thinking of more wiki categories
<Burgundavia> like locoteam
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: have you tried google earth? is it accurate?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> google earth is windows only
<Burgundavia> and I don't run wine
<Burgundavia> remember, I hate windows
<jsgotangco> im playing around with my wife's laptop which has it installed
<jsgotangco> lots of eye candy though
<Burgundavia> I see
<Burgundavia> have your heard back from claire yet?
<jsgotangco> but pretty useless for the rest of the people of the earth
<jsgotangco> i just faxed my stuff today and its probably only 7am on london
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> I just realized why I got an email about the laptop testing team
<jsgotangco> oh you did
<Burgundavia> when I emailed Jane about a job, she said not, but she said she could do something else for me
<Burgundavia> I think she signed me up
<jsgotangco> (well actually i scanned my doc, her fax wasn't responding)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> job?
<Burgundavia> asked canonical for a job
<jsgotangco> hmmm i should do that sometime heh
<jsgotangco> i think you're better off asking claire
<Burgundavia> something tells me they now get lots of job seekers
<jsgotangco> oh im pretty sure of that
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: or probably silbs that's your best bet
<Burgundavia> silbs?
<jsgotangco> jane silber
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> she heads marketing..
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of half-finished and crap docs out there
<Burgundavia> most people right docs for themselves
<Burgundavia> it is hard to right for everybody, obiviously
<jsgotangco> well obviously...people write their experiences instead of best practices
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> pretty much every doc I have tagged as being one has also needed to be tagged as Cleanup
<jsgotangco> on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> after I tag everything Archive
<Burgundavia> I am going to add a huge notice to the top
<Burgundavia> saying that those pages are archived
<jsgotangco> hmmm i almost forgot we have a meeting on the 29th
<jsgotangco> err 28th
<Burgundavia> my meeting attendance might fall through the floor when I get a new job
<jsgotangco> its alright sometimes the ML is a better source for conversation than the actual meeting
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the meeting at leasts gets us together
<Burgundavia> and forces an issue on the table
<Burgundavia> my goal is to have every page the wiki at least touched after autoimport, by the end of the week
<jsgotangco> adding GPL to licenses?
<Burgundavia> just an idea from mpt
<jsgotangco> we already have GFDL unless what mpt meant was adding GPL so that others who use it will adhere to it as well
<Burgundavia> adding the GPL would allow it to go back upstream to Debian
<jsgotangco> transformed as debian docs?
<Burgundavia> sure
<jsgotangco> brb im gonna switch to kubuntu
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, jsgotangco have you updated your machines recently?
<Burgundavia> comments? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeepingUbuntuUpdated
<Burgundavia> I know it is not perfect, but it is a start
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, the message is quite clear though
<jsgotangco> (i just updatedmy machine a few minutes ago)
<Burgundavia> I need the screen from synaptic that shows packages to be updated
<jsgotangco> oh too late
<jsgotangco> have you noticed that when you start ubuntu update manager, it updates itself but when you start synaptic it wants to be updated again
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> hmm
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: sorry, didn't see your link before i asked. I thought you meant updated to breezy or something, so it was just to make sure.
<Burgundavia> no, I just need a link of the popup dialog in synaptic that shows the packages that are to be updated
<Burgundavia> for that wiki page I just pasted
<Burgundavia> well, I didn't mean to blog twice today
<Burgundavia> mdke, when you get up, can you look at --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianRosettaDone?action=show
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> is anyone awake?
<rob^> :(
<sivang> rob^: I am 
<sivang> rob^: (acutally mostly on and off the machine)
<mdke> morning all
<highvoltage> morning, mdke 
<highvoltage> oops. sorry, didn't realise i was 45 minutes late :)
<highvoltage> mdke: good afternoon, then ;)
<mdke> hi there
<mdke> still morning
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping/
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> hmmm girlfriend must have arrived already
<jsgotangco> man this oXygen app for doing docbook is great but a real resource hog...
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> jjesse: what's cooking
<jjesse> not much trying to see if there is a way to use the docbook plugin for eclipse
<jjesse> normal work as well
<jsgotangco> i've been testing out a 3rd party app called oXygen
<jjesse> any good?
<jsgotangco> it has an eclipse plugin
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> its non-free though
<jjesse> non-free as cost or ?
<jsgotangco> cost
<jjesse> non-free as in ubuntu non-free
<jsgotangco> but its what sean w uses so...
<jsgotangco> im actually using it now
<jsgotangco> i was just grumbling how resource intensive it is on my side
<jjesse> $48 not too bad...
<jsgotangco> yes compared to other solutions like xml spy
<jsgotangco> since its java, it runs on all platforms nicely
<jsgotangco> i even tried it on windows
<jjesse> i notifced that looking at website
<jsgotangco> although bluefish does have docbook support, its not so smart
<squinn> jsgotangco, you there?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> how can i help you sir
<jjesse> hiya squinn
<squinn> just an alert that i've been having some computer problems
<squinn> hence why i've not been in contact with the group
<jsgotangco> squinn: its ok there's nothing much cooking either..we don't have a working X...heh
<squinn> heh
<squinn> and also that i've got an RL meeting thursday night, so i can't make ubuntu-doc meeitng
<jsgotangco> RL?
<jsgotangco> a lot of people have been busy with their lives, that is good that means people are thriving at the moment...
<squinn> real life
<squinn> and alright
<jsgotangco> as for me i'm getting quite hooked on the style guide
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i actually wrote some docs over the weekend in a windows machine using oXygen and tortoise hehehe...
<jsgotangco> since my laptop was broke
<squinn> hah
<jsgotangco> its our little secret ;)
<jjesse> hey nothing wrong about using a window machine :)
<jjesse> i do half the time
<jjesse> <-- windows network admin
<jsgotangco> ahhh i have a client who i admin 2 win2k3 servers...
<jsgotangco> they're really nice IMO
<jsgotangco> but most of the time i handle RHEL and Oracle installations
<jjesse> ah win2k3 servers are very nice and stable
<jjesse> easy to admin even w/ stupid people using them as terminal servers :)
<jjesse> who
<jjesse> doh wrong window for last mesaage
<highvoltage> indeed
<jsgotangco> sp1 did bork an AD once for me though...
<jsgotangco> other than that, everything as i want windows to be..
<jsgotangco> (they're not so good as desktops though)
<highvoltage> jsgotangco, jjesse: can you please keep windows discussions off this channel?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> I LOVE IT
* jsgotangco goes back to work
<jsgotangco> alright folks, if you got time to do it before the meeting, please update your work in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects and I will be cleaning up the page before the 28th..
<jsgotangco> it would also be nice if your current docbook work has updated status ids so that once we start refreshing the docs for status and previews it'll be updated
<jsgotangco> as for edubuntu stuff, its still in state of flux as we still don't have a usable installer, but im pretty sure majority of existing Ubuntu docs will go in as Yelp will be used as the help viewer so most of the edubuntu work will involve edubuntu-specific routines
<jsgotangco> venda: hello
<venda> hi
<jsgotangco> venda: i looove oXygen
<venda> cool, makes life much easier ;-)
<jsgotangco> yeah i've been doing bits lately on it and seem to have sped up a bit in terms of output
<venda> jsgotangco: just some news, checkout this project, just releasing. Not finished yet on the Web Site http://icdl.tsf.org.za
<venda> and the license need variant sections
<venda> how cool would it be if we could do these books in k/ubuntu
<jsgotangco> computer driver's license?
<venda> yes, like the ECDL
<jjesse> never heard of a computer driver's license
<jjesse> is that where computer drive trucks?
<venda> :-) quite well known actually
<jsgotangco> ZA has strange IT practices...
<venda> anyway, it will be over 600 pages of materials
<jsgotangco> holy crap
<venda> we are just missing the OOo DB
<venda> Would be nice to update them to 2.0
<jsgotangco> venda: it could come in handy with Adi's Ubuntu Engineer certification stuff...
<venda> not the same
<jsgotangco> well yeah, its LPI compliant..
<venda> that stuff is aimed at teaching newbies
<jsgotangco> LPI shouldnt really be a concern on this one though...
<venda> jsgotangco: ICDL is totally diferent
<venda> jsgotangco: ICDL is for people who are now to computers
<jsgotangco> venda: not related to LearnLinux?
<venda> It is
<venda> but not directly
<jsgotangco> LearnLinux is pretty newbie stuff at the start....
<venda> LearnLinux is aimed at people who want to administrate
<venda> openICDL is aimed at new desktop users
<venda> openICDL is backed by a recognized vertification
<venda> oops
<venda> certification
<jsgotangco> hmmm im looking at the courseware...
<venda> the license is cc-by-nc 2.5
<jsgotangco> theres material in it already...
<venda> jsgotangco: yes the documents are written
<venda> jsgotangco: all except the DB
<jsgotangco> wonder if chua did something similar on his planned courseworks..
<venda> dunno
<jsgotangco> he did metion a while back on those plans...but anyways...
<jsgotangco> venda: its a nice idea for a future release though..
<venda> I am making it a deb
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> venda: it has your email on website feedback heh
<venda> that's correct because I am part of the project :-)
<jsgotangco> i thought you wanted me to look at a different project
<jsgotangco> heh
<venda> not yet
<venda> st533 se335ng 5t
<venda> 66-s
<venda> still selling it
<jsgotangco> you surprise me almost every week
<venda> busy busy
<venda> so much to do, so little time
<venda> jsgotangco: on the other project I split it into several parts
<jsgotangco> yes i noticed it makes it more easier...
<jsgotangco> i just refreshed svn today
<venda> yeah, much
<venda> oh you were able to do anonymous checkout?
<jsgotangco> debugging it as a single project would make it easier if its split up
<jsgotangco> just loads of xrefs
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> its working now
<venda> Oh cool, the ACLs must be working :-) finally
<venda> was starting to question my sanity
<venda> well off to do some more work
<jsgotangco> its working great now, tested it on ubuntu, osx and windows
<venda> osx, you have a mac
<jsgotangco> my wife uses an ibook
<venda> ah ha
<venda> ok. c ya later
<jsgotangco> ok cya keep me in the news if there is one :P
<venda> will do
<squinn> hey froud, how are you?
<venda> squinn: hi, good thanks, and you
<venda> squinn: venda == froud , what can I do for you mate
<venda> Hmm, anyone seen any good documents on preseeding with Ubuntu?
<squinn> not mcuh going on here
<venda> yeah
<venda> u mean at work
<squinn> work? i'm not at work.
<venda> so not much going on at home?
<squinn> yep
<venda> well there is plenty to do if you're bored :-)
<squinn> like work on docs?
<venda> no!! we don't work on docs here :-)
* venda looks around
<venda> Who works on docs here?
<venda> squinn: we just talk about and pretend to be doing so. But actually work on docs. NEVER!!
<squinn> hah
<squinn> i need my commit account. :D
<venda> I thought elmo sent that out a while back
<squinn> he did.'
<venda> and so, what's up
<squinn> my pgp key was a little wrong. 
<squinn> so i sent out a new one to james
<squinn> and then?
<squinn> ..died
<squinn> oh crap.
<squinn> i reformatted and lost my PGP key..AGAIN
<venda> Hmm, you will have to ping him again. Nothing we can do now.
<venda> Oh dude, you need to get control
<venda> we can't have you constantly asking elmo for updates to your keys
<squinn> i know, i intend to put it on my site so i don't lose it
<squinn> but my hosting's screwed up
<squinn> sysadmin has no control
<venda> backup to flash disk
<venda> floppy disk
<squinn> good idea
<venda> geeze use yahoo briefcase or a gmail account
<venda> there must be 100 ways you can backup you keys
<squinn> true, i can put it on gmail as well
<{Seb}> does anyone know why i was banned from #ubuntu-devel
<venda> no point crying about your account when you cant keep your keys
<squinn> true, venda
<venda> {Seb}: what did you do wrong? did you really T somebody off
<{Seb}> i don't know!
<venda> How do you know you were banned
<{Seb}> i asked a kernel question yesterday - without a reply
<{Seb}> Cannot join #ubuntu-devel (You are banned).
<venda> Ah ha
<{Seb}> what does that mean?
<venda> somebody banned you
<venda> is your nick registered
<{Seb}> how can i find of who?
<{Seb}> yes
<venda> Ok so its not a mistake
<{Seb}> how do i get unbanned?
<{Seb}> and how can i find out who did it?
<venda> {Seb}: actually I don't know, its the first time I have heard of this happening
<squinn> venda, what files do i need to backup?
<{Seb}> venda: could you go in and ask for me?
<venda> {Seb}: I will try
<{Seb}> any luck?
<venda> {Seb}: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-devel-current.html
<venda> 10:21	\sh	fabbione: whats up with seb?
<venda> 10:21	fabbione	constantly off-topic
<venda> 10:21	fabbione	harassing devels
<venda> 10:21	\sh	well yes
<venda> 10:21	fabbione	he has been warned tons of times
<venda> {Seb}: sorry dude, you will have to speak with fabbione
<venda> squinn: you need to backup your keys
<venda> asc and some stuff
<venda> depends on where you saved them
<{Seb}> venda: i am now offically offended
<venda> {Seb}: sorry, can't help. But seems you had a number of warnings
<{Seb}> venda: well - i think ubuntu need to think about their IRC channels
<venda> why is that?
<{Seb}> i wanted to ask a question about the development branch
<mdke> hi
<{Seb}> and on #ubuntu, nobody will help with breezy
<mdke> {Seb}, nothing we can do man
<venda> {Seb}: Fabbione is very level headed, he would not ban you if there was no cause to do so
* mdke nods
<venda> {Seb}: the only thing you can do is message him and chat with him in private
<venda> {Seb}: try understand what you did to force his hand
<venda> {Seb}: he is the only person who can help you now
* mdke speed reads the scrollback
<Burgundavia> the wiki looks screwed --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges
<Burgundavia> look at who has been editing
<rwabel> Burgundavia: that's why it's locked :-)
<Burgundavia> crap
<Burgundavia> bloody wiki and corruption
<rwabel> what happened?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> I did some major editing last night, but when I went to bed, it was fine
<rwabel> I did some today, but can't tell you when I last edited...but I only edit ther UserDocumentation
<Burgundavia> you haven't edited after me
<rwabel> :-)
<rwabel> did something got lost?
<Burgundavia> while your at it, you can look at this -->https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeepingUbuntuUpdated
<Burgundavia> I created it last night
<Burgundavia> I am not happy with the writing
<rwabel> you mean with the context or the style? English isn't my mother tongue :-)
<Burgundavia> anything
<Burgundavia> what is your mother tongue?
<rwabel> swiss german
<rwabel> btw the update notification stuff is strange
<Burgundavia> oh?
<rwabel> for several weeks now the icon doesn't appear at all
<Burgundavia> you running hoary?
<rwabel> yes
<rwabel> it run well some weeks ago
<Burgundavia> did you get the last ff security update?
<Burgundavia> the one that broke everything/
<rwabel> from bp?
<Burgundavia> no, from the security team
<rwabel> mhh quit possible, I'm always up to date
<rwabel> when was that? I'm using ff from bp
<rwabel> about your site: are u sure that the update-notifier is installed by default on hoary?
<Burgundavia> there will be another security update today or tomorrow
<Burgundavia> so wait for it
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> absolutely certain
<rwabel> ok
<Burgundavia> and the 1.0.6 version that is coming from the security team will override you bp one
<Burgundavia> or at least it should
<rwabel> mhh interesting did they chance their position about ff update? that's good
<Burgundavia> basically ff is so screwed right now anyway that pitti figured he would break policy and backport it
<rwabel> opera rocks!
<rwabel> ff is also much slower than ff under windows
<Burgundavia> I was an opera user from version 3 to version 7
<rwabel> 7 was bad
<Burgundavia> when I switched from RH 8 to Ubuntu, I just started using FF and liked it
<rwabel> that made me change to ff
<Burgundavia> 7 has an ugly UI
<rwabel> I'm using 8.02 preview with bittorrent inside
<rwabel> it's still the fastet browser
<rwabel> I like ff under windows much much more than under linux
<rwabel> can't you also change some settings in the update notifier? how often he checks for updates etc? that would also be good to put in the wiki
<Burgundavia> don't think you can
<Burgundavia> and people shouldn't be changing those settings anyway
<rwabel> why not
<rwabel> if you want to get notified all 12hours
<rwabel> instead of 1 day or what it is by default
<Burgundavia> umm...
<Burgundavia> 1 day is fine
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu/Gnome are all about sane and sensible defaults
<rwabel> right
<Burgundavia> if allow people to change that setting, they may disable it, and that is a bad thing
<rwabel> good point
<rwabel> that's a bit a problem with linux. if you want to have it easy a la windows you get limited....otherwise it makes it complicated and useres can "damage" stuff
<Burgundavia> basically, forcing the user the make a choice is bad, and allowing them to change settings is essentially making a choice
<Burgundavia> a smart and resourceful user can still disable the update manager
<Burgundavia> just stop it from starting
<Burgundavia> but there is no reason to make it easy to do so
<Burgundavia> that is why linux is different than windows. You can still muck at that level if you need to
<rwabel> I for example would like to have update notifier set to 12 hours or so. I don't want to remove it
<Burgundavia> there are not that many security updates
<rwabel> exactly, but I'm using bp. there are more packages coming
<Burgundavia> then use synaptic
<Burgundavia> the update manager is designed for Aunt Tillie, not us
<rwabel> I do, but it would be practial to just see if a new package is there
<rwabel> I do often just apt-get update to see if a new package is there
<rwabel> but it's just a small feature for me
<rwabel> but an essential one for new useres
<rwabel> I mean the update notifier in general
<Burgundavia> I rarely use it
<Burgundavia> as I run Breezy and thus need the ability to remove/add packages
<rwabel> breezy I read on the forum is broken right now, isn't it?
<rwabel> huge problem with xserver?
<Burgundavia> breezy works for me, but mileage varies greatly
<rwabel> need to restart xserver, damn 24bit! I can only game fine with 16bit :-(
<rwabel> mhh ubuntu won't let me logout :-)
<rwabel> a wiki edit is back, thanks
<Burgundavia> yes, just noticed that
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-31
<thechitowncubs> Salut y'all
<rob^> yo
<Burgundavia> salut rob^ thechitowncubs 
<rob^> hey
<venda> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut venda 
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> I see you have bought into my idea of respecing the quick guide
<jsgotangco> sure it does make sense
<rob^> where is the spec?
<jsgotangco> hmmm how do you guys feel about making a launchpad team for UDP
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<jsgotangco> there's already a wiki team in launchpad
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> it should be there
<jsgotangco> alright, i'll put it up on the meeting before i make it
<jsgotangco> although there's really no reason why not :)
<jsgotangco> and launchpad is really rocking at the moment
<jsgotangco> wonder if its possible to make team calendars
<jsgotangco> err what's the difference between an ubuntite and a member?
<rob^> ubuntite has signed the thingy
<rob^> a member has not
<jsgotangco> through launchpad?
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> so its automatic
<rob^> yes, when you sign it
<jsgotangco> hmmm its been a while since i used launchpad
* rob^ should be a ubuntite for example
<jsgotangco> launchpad was pretty useless a few months ago
<rob^> yeah, there is still a lot of bugs
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> an Ubuntite has signed the CoC through launchpad but a member is approved by an admin...
<rob^> is there a wiki page on recompiling a ubuntu kernel?
<rob^> jsgotangco, ah ok
<rob^> jsgotangco, seems stupid, but ok
<jsgotangco> i'm just looking at the people list in launchpad
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burgundavia> rob^, you just made planetkde.org
<Burgundavia> rob^, would you mind adding some context to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EthernetOverFirewire
<Burgundavia> what it is good for, etc.
<mdke> Burgundavia, you asked about an italian page yesterday?
<Burgundavia> mdke, indeed
<mdke> sup?
<Burgundavia> all the italian docs need some love
<mdke> yes
<mdke> there is an italian documentation team
<Burgundavia> but there was one I was asking if I could kill
<mdke> Burgundavia, please don't kill anything
<mdke> we're holding off doing any major tidying up until after we move wikis
<Burgundavia> ah
<mdke> why bother killing pages?
<mdke> you only end up upsetting the creator
<Burgundavia> mostly because the existance of the page may hold back someone else
<Burgundavia> only a few pages I am nixing
<mdke> can't the someone else work on improving the current page
<mdke> although i don't see how that argument applies to ItalianRosettaDone
<Burgundavia> mdke, where are the italian docs now
<mdke> Burgundavia, anything beginning in Italian*
<Burgundavia> and where are they going?
<mdke> to a moin wiki at ubuntu-it.org
<Burgundavia> ah ok
<Burgundavia> hmm, that is going to make it harder to interwiki
<mdke> true
<mdke> but we don't do any interwiki-ing
<Burgundavia> we need to
<mdke> in what way?
<Burgundavia> anything that makes moving around a wiki is good
<mdke> well obviously the italian websites will be linked in the appropriate places
<mdke> Burgundavia, there are very few national teams that have their stuff on the ubuntu wiki
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the canadian wiki had a big debate about it
<mdke> http://www.ubuntu-de.org/wiki/
<mdke> http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/
<mdke> etc
<mdke> don't canadian people use english and french resources?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> it is shame that this stuff needs to move off the official wiki
<Burgundavia> need something like the wikipedia project does
<mdke> i agree
<mdke> but since it isn't being done...
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> maybe we can talk after breezy is out about that sort of thing
<mdke> ok
<mdke> although if that is going to be done, the same needs to be done for the website
<mdke> the main reason for moving the wiki is to have it at the same domain as the website and forum
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I find the whole -COUNTRYCODE thing to be substandard
<mdke> ok better raise it at the CC
<Burgundavia> whatever
<Burgundavia> when I get a job to support loco teams, I will work on that
<mdke> re: deleting wiki pages, I think in pages that aren't going to cause problems of duplication or something like that, its best to leave it, because you never know whether the author wants it for something
<mdke> a good example is ItalianRosettaDone
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> they don't do any harm
<Burgundavia> all the pages I have been editing have no been edited since the wiki move
<Burgundavia> anything that looks remotely like a doc I am tagging
<Burgundavia> not matter how bad
<Burgundavia> the only stuff I am killing is stuff that is short, like the rosetta page
<mdke> well if you kill it and then we want it again, we'll just have to recreate it
<mdke> which is annoying, given that it does not do anyone any harm
<Burgundavia> wiki pages that are left can do harm
<Burgundavia> as they create the impression of a usable page
<mdke> if they are not linked misleadingly, i disagree
<Burgundavia> they are linked by being part of the wiki and can be found by searching
* Burgundavia can't believe he is arguing to delete pages on the wiki
<mdke> if someone finds a page that is not useful to them, its pretty easy to ignore it
<Burgundavia> if you look at all the pages I have deleted, I think you would agree that they should go
<Burgundavia> it numbers less than a dozen
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> I am not deleted obivious crap, just tagging it with Cleanup
<mdke> sounds good
<Burgundavia> basically every doc I find needs to get tagged
<mdke> ok
<mdke> leave the italian stuff tho please
<Burgundavia> I am only tagging english docs
* mdke nods
<mdke> ok gtg now
<Burgundavia> non-english pages I am simply removing that double title issue from the wiki transfer
<mdke> thanks for all your work
<mdke> its really cool
<Burgundavia> the wiki needs work
<Burgundavia> rob^, if it is a work in progress, that is what the CategoryCleanup is for
<Burgundavia> rob^, notice I have tagged this page --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeepingUbuntuUpdated
<Burgundavia> that I just created but are unsatified with
<rob^> umm
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of docs is worse shape than yours
<rob^> did you not listen to mdke? you dont need to hammer everything
<rob^> yes
<Burgundavia> what does tagging have to do with deleting something?
<rob^> I didn't say deleting
<Burgundavia> rob^, I am looking to create the best wiki out there
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: where's this wiki?
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, we are discussing changes to the Ubuntu wiki
<rob^> yes, you are doing a good job, just be careful on what you want to "clean up"
<kane> froud: are you there ?
<Burgundavia> insanekanefr, he also goes by venda
<insanekanefr> Burgundavia: oh thanks :)
<insanekane> Burgundavia: would you know about Kubuntu documentation ? is it in the docteam.ubuntu.com svn ?
<insanekane> Burgundavia: ignore that question ... my mistake :)
<insanekane> Burgundavia: is there some meta-package that I can install to compile all the docbook files into PDF ?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> don't really hack much in the svn
<insanekane> oh ok
<rob^> yeah there is a way
<rob^> it was asked just the other night
<rob^> there is still a LOT of work to be done on Kubuntu documentation
<rob^> I doubt whats there is all that useful at the moment
<Burgundavia> Kubuntu basically has no baseline, as it didn;t really exist in the breezy cycle
<rob^> no
<Burgundavia> s/breezy/hoary
<rob^> one of the plans, if I get time, is to create a Kubuntu profile for the faq in time for breezy
<rob^> I've started
<insanekane> rob^: is it worthwhile to translate the kubuntu user guide atm ?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> we have a string freeze
<rob^> why do you ask that insanekane?
<Burgundavia> sep 8
<rob^> oh, probably not
* rob^ just realised what you were asking
<insanekane> hmm
<rob^> unless you can have it done in a month :P
<insanekane> but i have to anyway
<rob^> theres no reason not to start work on it
<Burgundavia> better to hack on the english docs and then translate like mad in sept
<rob^> just because it isn't released with breezy, doesn't mean you cant work on it with the idea to include it with the next ubuntu release either
<Burgundavia> translating early in the cycle is not really that great, as that is when we refactor stuff quite heavily
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> stuff changes alot
<insanekane> hmm ..
<Burgundavia> I mean writing has only really started in the last couple of weeks
<insanekane> im deriving a distro from Kubuntu, and so I need to translate *something* :)
<Burgundavia> what are you deriving for?
<insanekane> what do you mean ?
<rob^> insanekane, just pull a copy of the kubuntu guide out of svn and work on it seperatly for your new distro
<insanekane> thats what I thought to do ..
<rob^> its released under two different open licences
<insanekane> i dont mind even if under GPL :)
<rob^> insanekane, I would talk to the current authors of it
<insanekane> ok
<Burgundavia> insanekane, GFDL and CC by SA 2.0
<Burgundavia> all Ubuntu docs are under those licenses
<rob^> insanekane, talk to Sean Wheller or Jonathan Jesse 
<rob^> they might be able to offer a better suggestion, they know where it is heading
<insanekane> oho ... well, thats why im here :) looking for froud :)
<insanekane> right now, i am downloading the deb
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> ping froud
<insanekane> what package should I download to compile the docbook to PDF ?
<rob^> I wonder what time it is in his part of the world..
<Burgundavia> xmlto should have the necessary stuff
<Burgundavia> rob^, UTC+1 for froud
<insanekane> ok thanks
<rob^> insanekane, I think there may be a make script for pdf now for some docs
<Burgundavia> rob^, south africa
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> just did a whois
<rob^> hmm, its like day time there then, maybe hes still at work
<insanekane> yeah .. its about 12 noon
<rob^> yeah almost
<rob^> or lunch?
<poningru> hello all
<rob^> hi
<poningru> I sent an email to someone http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=21
<poningru> about me helping with the docs
<Burgundavia> poningru, that would be me
<poningru> hehe
<rob^> insanekane, you could send an email to the mailing list
<rob^> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<poningru> I was wondering if there was any place that you guys really needed help with
<poningru> or should I just dive in
<Burgundavia> anything and everything
<poningru> or any place that needs grunt work
<rob^> poningru, do you know much about docbook?
<Burgundavia> the easiest place to start is the wiki
<poningru> rob^: kinda
<Burgundavia> we use docbook for the all stuff in SVN
<poningru> worked little bit with thunderbird help
<poningru> but I didnt like it
<rob^> check out ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<rob^> oops
<rob^> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<Burgundavia> poningru, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted
<rob^> check that out poningru 
<rob^> and that
<Burgundavia> poningru, if you want to hack the wiki, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo
<poningru> ooh searching for that for a while
<Burgundavia> read the thing about CategoryCleanup
<poningru> heh I guess I can do the thing right under category cleanup
<poningru> thunderbird
* poningru pets his thunderbird
<Burgundavia> sure
<rob^> Currently the install guide and the Kubuntu release notes needs love, but others like the Userguide do too
<Burgundavia> if you are inspired, go
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> take your pick
<poningru> ooh kubuntu me no likey
<rob^> hehe
<poningru> but yeah I will work on that category thing
<rob^> cool
<poningru> err the stuff on the list
<poningru> ok thanks guys
<rob^> np
<rob^> thanks for offering to help out!
<poningru> yep np
<Burgundavia> I have to sleep now, as it is 4 am here, but good luck
<poningru> also you guys seem the most receptive
<Burgundavia> if you need me, email me
<poningru> ok
<poningru> can I ask you guys a question?
<rob^> shoot
<poningru> about fundraising
<poningru> why are we not doing what mofo is doing with the search plugin?
<poningru> err mozilla foundation*
<poningru> why not insert our own search plugin to make some money
<Burgundavia> ubuntu does not need money, trust me
<rob^> because thats not what Ubuntu is about
<poningru> hehe I know
<poningru> but that could be something we will need later wont we?
<poningru> after the 10 mil has run out
<rob^> dunno, probably not
<Burgundavia> unlikely to Ubuntu is going to need more money
<Burgundavia> the 10mil was the start
<rob^> yep
<rob^> there is a lot of backing apart from that
<poningru> oh so there is going to be funding injected
<poningru> oh
<poningru> wow did not know
<Burgundavia> mark has publicly stated that he is going to fund it his entire life
<Burgundavia> and has planned around that
<poningru> ah ic
<rob^> the guy that founded verisign or something..
<rob^> he's loaded anyhow..
<poningru> yeah I know the major hitters in the nerd community
<Burgundavia> and if he dies, there are plans in his will for the money to survive what would have been his natural life
<Burgundavia> rob^, thawte, which he sold to verisign
<rob^> thats the one
<poningru> heh lets not plan like that
<rob^> thawte
<poningru> he was also the one who paid like a bunch of money to go to space
<poningru> ok I will be off
<poningru> night guys
<rob^> night
<poningru> well early morn
<rob^> nah night here :)
<poningru_sleep> its 0700 here
<Burgundavia> night rob^ 
<rob^> night Burgundavia 
<poningru_sleep> also is there a plan to ever include a large help file in the distro itself?
<rob^> yes, several
<poningru_sleep> apart from the gnome one
<rob^> I'm the lead author on the faq guide
<poningru_sleep> oh the official ubuntuguide?
<rob^> yeah
<poningru_sleep> wait can we include things like css for dvd etc.?
<rob^> no
<rob^> keep it on the wiki
<poningru_sleep> right
<rob^> we will be including links from the guide pointing to the wiki for more info
<poningru_sleep> ah gotcha
<poningru_sleep> so assuming mp3 is out as well
<rob^> the idea is the wiki is less official then the documents 
<insanekane> does anyone know where the docs are accessible, after i install the kubuntu docs deb ?
<poningru_sleep> ok now I really have to go sleep
<poningru_sleep> night
<rob^> so less chance of the smack down
<rob^> yes, svn repo
<rob^> oh
<rob^> somewhere on your system :P
<insanekane> rob^: :)
<rob^> just bring them up using Yelp
<insanekane> khelpcentre has them ..
<rob^> System -> Help in ubuntu
<insanekane> now have to figure out how to the docs on a single page :/
<rob^> why?
<rob^> docbook isn't designed that way
<rob^> they are supposed to be a, *gasp*, book
<rob^> :P
<insanekane> rob^: dude, i have to print it out, and pass the printouts to my non-computer literate translators
<carstenh> hi, which copyright has information found in the ubuntu-wikis? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InitScriptHumanDescriptions would be very useful for me
<insanekane> after a literal translation, i have to do data entry. then i have to verify the translation.
<rob^> umm
<rob^> the wiki is dual licenced
<rob^> like all docteam projects
<insanekane> well, they are not computer illeterate ... but sure as hell they dont know docbook :)
<rob^> under GFDL and CC by SA 2.0
<carstenh> rob^: ok, thanks
<rob^> insanekane, just print out the different pages and staple them together
<insanekane> rob^: yeah, i was just hoping I could get a single page :)
<insanekane> err
<insanekane> i mean, like a single HTML page
<insanekane> anyway, nevermind
<rob^> heh, gotta love low-tech solutions
<rob^> there may be a way using xmlto, I've seen it done on tldp
<insanekane> yeah, when i worked with docbook years ago, it was possible
<insanekane> i just dont know how to use xmlto 
<insanekane> i installed xmlto and compiled the docbook ... unfortunately, it failed citing a LOT of errors
<rob^> try: xmlto html-nochunks mydoc.xml
<insanekane> (probably, some kind of tailored docbook modules are used with KDE docs ?)
<froud> insanekane: we use xsltproc
<froud> just look at the makefiles
<carstenh> rob^: i googled for SA, south africa is probably wrong
<rob^> that should create a single page of whatever xml file
<insanekane> froud: hi froud :) was just waiting for you ...
<froud> hmm
<insanekane> froud: i dont have the makefiles ..
<rob^> carstenh, no no
<insanekane> froud: how do i get the makefiles ?
<froud> what docbook do you want to transform
<rob^> carstenh, Creative Commons 
<froud> our user docs
<insanekane> froud: let me start at the beginning
<froud> insanekane: ok
<insanekane> froud: i am helping to translate the Kubuntu docs ..
<froud> k
<carstenh> rob^: CC stands for Creative Commons and SA stands for?
<rob^> carstenh, one of their licences
<insanekane> froud: i have a couple of computer non-experts, and i have to provide a printout to them for translation
<carstenh> rob^: thanks
<rob^> carstenh, http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
<insanekane> froud: so, could you tell me 1) which doc is best for translation to a manual ? 2) how to make a single HTML page out of it ?
<froud> insanekane: you talking about the docs in our svn?
<froud> or upstream documents
<insanekane> froud: we will also proof read the existing docs, and add things wherever necessary in the english docs
<insanekane> froud: i am talking about your docs ... the kubuntu docs
<froud> Ok
<froud> to translate you would use poxml
<froud> from the kdesdk
<insanekane> froud: well, that is a later stage
<froud> to create single page HTML use xsltproc
<insanekane> right now, i need to print everything, and pass it on to the translators (who do not know docbook etc)
<insanekane> aha ok
<froud> it is better if they use pot/po files
<insanekane> froud: how do i actually get all the docs + images ?
<froud> insanekane: you should checkout the src from svn
<insanekane> i will use the po files when the data entry stage comes
<insanekane> froud: are there any instructions for that someplace ?
<froud> on how to do a checkout?\
<insanekane> svn checkout .... then what ?
<insanekane> svn co ......
<froud> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs
<insanekane> thx
<froud> that wil give you all the files from the project
<insanekane> ie, only the kubuntu docs right ?
<froud> no that is all svn
<insanekane> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs/kde would get me only kubuntu stuff ?
<froud> part of it
<froud> hang ten
<insanekane> hang ten ?
<rob^> wait one
<froud> wait a sec
<insanekane> froud: which document do you suggest I start with ?
<rob^> wait out
<rob^> OZ this is AD over
<insanekane> ok
<rob^> AD this is OZ over
<froud> insanekane: 
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/common kubuntu-docs/common
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/libs kubuntu-docs/libs
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde kubuntu-docs/repos
<froud> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/validate.sh kubuntu-docs
* rob^ is comms guy
<froud> that is what you need, I think
<froud> you can drop the last one
<insanekane> ok ..
<insanekane> froud: so which doc is most complete as of now ?
<froud> to transform to HTML look at  the Makefile
<froud> insanekane: none of them are
<insanekane> froud: the quick guide seems to be ok
<froud> yes, but could be changed
<froud> hence I say use pot/po and we can merge
<froud> but normally translation happens in Rosetta
<froud> @launchpad
<insanekane> hmm, none of things i can understand :)
<froud> Rosetta is a tool for doing localization and translation
<rob^> froud, insanekane mentioned he wanted them for a up and comming distro based off kubuntu
<froud> when code is uploaded it eventually finds it way into Rosetta
<froud> insanekane: do you want to modify the docs
<froud> insanekane: if it is any help I can add single page make targets fo ryou
<rob^> insanekane, is there anyone involved in the distro that has a little docbook experience?
<froud> insanekane: if you want to base of th ekubuntu docs (fork) or work with them, just translated, would be two diff approaches
<froud> If for distro, I would say you could fork
<froud> if just for translation, I would say you should just make pot/po files in our svn and translate the strings
<froud> I can provide PDF or Single Page HTML for you
* froud is not sure what is going on :-)
<rob^> insanekane, are you still there?
* rob^ nether
* froud goes off to play in the real world
<rob^> s/nether/neither
<rob^> hehe
* rob^ is waiting for tv show
* rob^ is sick atm
<rob^> yay no work tomorrow :)
<rob^> sick leave rocks!
<jsgotangco> Mez hiding? heh
<Mez> yes
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-24
<nixternal> ty sir
<nixternal> whew, im stuffed
<nixternal> UWN SENT
<nixternal> is there a way that i get approved to send to the ubuntu-news list?  so it doesn't get bounced back and say "waiting for approval cuz your a looser"?
<nixternal> alrighty, lets get some docwork done
<nixternal> what do we have on the agenda?
<LaserJock> not sure
<LaserJock> oh, where's the latest UWN?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Current
<nixternal> it is sitting in the new-list queue right now
<LaserJock> have you talked to imbrandon recently?
<nixternal> i haven't seen imbrandon recently
<nixternal> it has been a few days since i talked to him last
<LaserJock> hmm, 'cause he never poked me about that podcast. I wonder if he had something come up.
<nixternal> hey may of...but i haven't seen anything from him at all this weekend
<nixternal> s/hey/he
<LaserJock> doh, my interview was on the UWN?
<nixternal> muhahha
<nixternal> i grabbed everything from the news section, and posted it ;)
<nixternal> i would like to propose that the UWN be stopped, and further community news be done on the fridge..and that the fridge becomes something a little more then it is
<nixternal> i would offer to help as well
<nixternal> i get a few thousand news articles a day via akregator and my subscriptions...so i always have enough to post
<nixternal> i received complaints on this UWN, as it didn't seem professional..so i totally wiped out a lot of stuff i added so people would stop whining
<nixternal> they said, who reads the UWN?  Users...i told them they were wrong, and the only users who read it was us, since we are probably the only ones who actually subscribe to the mailing list
<nixternal> the fridge has a chance, and has a good base to reach more people..they just need an active staff
<nixternal> i know probably working the fridge and getting it to kick @$$ might hurt sites like ubuntuos, and buntudot, but I am in this for Ubuntu, not another site that I provide articles and what not on
<nixternal> ok..i will shut up now, since everyone fell aslseep
<LaserJock> well, I would say that UWN should be contintued *on* fridge rather than stopped
<LaserJock> and I agree that fridge should be more
<nixternal> well with the fridge, you would have daily news, so no need for UWN, except maybe a "Weekly Wrap Up"
<LaserJock> you need some sort of filter
<LaserJock> because there are too many items
<LaserJock> so you need the general RSS aggregator type feel
<LaserJock> with an additional overview
<LaserJock> "What happend this week"
<nixternal> thats why you would have "categories" and each story applies to a category, then you can have a search, that would be able to filter on "categories" as well as "dates"
<LaserJock> is there a framework fo that sort of thing?
<nixternal> and you can take the results and create a post that would do exactly that
<nixternal> there has to be, since many sites already do it..im sure drupal can do it as well
<nixternal> Like each sunday, do a "The Week in Review" type of deal, that lists the weeks news, with 1 sentence at most with a description..and then a brief paragraph on upcoming stuff if possible
<nixternal> because truthfully..the UWN is for the "Active Community"
<nixternal> those of us that are on teams
<LaserJock> and I think it's valuble
<LaserJock> I just doubt most of the Ubuntu users really find it fascinating
<nixternal> im sure if they do read it, when it comes to meetings and what not, they are probably like "wth is this"
<LaserJock> yep
<nixternal> for instance..i can go into #ubuntu and #kubuntu, and ask if anyone checked out the latest Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter..and i guarantee only a select few *who happen to be active members of the community* will even know what it is
<nixternal> heck, i can even show you some people who are active in the community, but don't subscribe the ubuntu-news list
<LaserJock> well, that's marketing, IMO (that's my favorite term this week it seems)
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> there's an ubuntu-news list?
<nixternal> i think marketing the fridge would be easier and more user friendly would it not?
<nixternal> that is where the newsletter goes
<nixternal> i think
<LaserJock> ah, I wondered
<LaserJock> yes, I think it almost has to be a website with RSS
<nixternal> "Ubuntu News" <ubuntu-news@lists.ubuntu.com>
<nixternal> yup, that is the list
<LaserJock> users aren't going to do mailing lists or the wiki to find stuff like that
<LaserJock> I don't even want to
<nixternal> i mean, the RSS for the fridge is already implemented in Kubuntu with akregator and kontact
<nixternal> so, even if a new user starts either one of those, and just happens to click anything, they will get news from the fridge
<LaserJock> I just think fridge could be revamped with a bigger team of contributors
<nixternal> well...there hasn't been news from the fridge in a while though ;)
<LaserJock> perhaps all Ubuntu Memebers should be able to post fridge material in some automatic way
<nixternal> +1 on that, and I would volunteer to do so as well
<nixternal> hmmm...maybe create a program like the "pastebin" app in gnome, but it posts to the fridge instead
<nixternal> i could however see a select few, being ubuntu members, used for moderating/editing news posts
<nixternal> im not the best at proofreading, spelling, or grammar at all..i mean i grew up in chicago where we all talk funny
<LaserJock> yeah, I know what you mean
<LaserJock> you'd need a non-native english speaker to get it right ;-)
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> well, the fridge will get going
<LaserJock> the problem with projects that are run by one person is that they can easily fall into disuse or go away
<LaserJock> if we can get enough people behind the fridge then it will get rockin soon enough
<LaserJock> but I'd like to see a community effort there
<nixternal> same here
<LaserJock> the problem is, I think, that everybody can see that there's a problem but don't know where to go to fix it
<nixternal> no doubt
<bimberi> the CC?
<LaserJock> I'm guessing it could be an item for the CC
<nixternal> when is the next CC?
<LaserJock> but I think jdub would need to be consulted
<nixternal> someone can put meetings on the fridge, but news is hard ;)
<nixternal> jdub's days are limited, so it would be nice to know who is replacing him there
<bimberi> it certainly needs a wider editorship, not sure about _all_ members though :)
<LaserJock> it should be on the 25th
<nixternal> sflaw has posted on there in the past
<bimberi> planet.ubuntu.com provides that
<LaserJock> bimberi: all members being able to post certain things, not editing at large
<LaserJock> I really don't like planet
<LaserJock> for some reason
<nixternal> the planet is just developer's blogs correct?
<LaserJock> I rather see planet folded into fridge
<LaserJock> nixternal: I think it's open to all members
<LaserJock> but it's a blog feed yes
<bimberi> LaserJock: ah, kk
<bimberi> yes, i'm under the impression its for all members
<nixternal> AHHH
<bimberi> Canonical is employing a "Community Manager".  Perhaps that will catalyse some change there
<nixternal> i goto planet.ubuntu.com and i see Corey's big ol' bean with his evil smile lookin' at me
<LaserJock> bimberi: perhaps, although I'm not sure who/when that will be
<bimberi> yes.  applications have closed,  well the job is no longer posted
<LaserJock> cool
<nixternal> heh, it also seems that the planet has some language that might not be PG, especially for the youngsters.
* LaserJock sighs, I guess I didn't get it then ;-)
<nixternal> however, the youngsters, swear worse then most
<bimberi> http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
<nixternal> but it isn't professional
<LaserJock> nixternal: yes, well, they are blogs
<nixternal> derr
<nixternal> ;)
<bimberi> LaserJock: :)
<LaserJock> that's why I think fridge is necessary
<bimberi> yep, agreed.  Just needs it's tempo raised somewhat
<bimberi> *its
<LaserJock> yeah, and more content
<LaserJock> I think buntudot.org's podcasts are really cool (not that I'm biased or anything)
<LaserJock> pointers to docs (tip of the day from the desktop guides)
<LaserJock> UWN type stuff
<LaserJock> app of the day
<bimberi> first i'd heard of them *makes note to configure ipodder*
<LaserJock> what would be excellent is items that would increase the developer-> communication without being time consuming for developers and way over the head of users
<LaserJock> developer-> user comunication that is
<nixternal> ya, that is true laserjock
<nixternal> i forgot about those sections of the UWN that would be pretty neat for 'new or typical' users
<LaserJock> but who would read them?
<LaserJock> I doubt new or even typical users are reading UWN, but I could be wrong of course
<nixternal> oh they aren't, but getting them on a section of the fridge that would be RSS or what not
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I would like to be able to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu news needs
<nixternal> ok, well then maybe the UWN is a good idea, just delivered wrong
<LaserJock> just like I want to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu help needs
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> ya..it is irc.freenode.net silly
<LaserJock> I think the UWN is good, mainly targeted towards active community members, but still very useful
<LaserJock> and targeted towards the top as well ;-)
<nixternal> i think that the planet is good, if used to blog "Ubuntu" stuff more then personal stuff..like blog about your Ubuntu work for the week...or maybe setup an Ubuntu blog system where "Ubuntu Members" can blog their Ubuntu achievments for the wekk
<nixternal> then take that info/input and work it in somehow as well
<LaserJock> well, I think you can set it to just grab a category of your blog
<LaserJock> but I'm guess many people don't do that
<LaserJock> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/about is interesting
<LaserJock> I think it's a good idea that just never reached critical mass
<nixternal> or goals
<nixternal> the downunder even was a year ago
<nixternal> event*
<LaserJock> anyway, we can talk all we want
<LaserJock> but it's just talk
<nixternal> what can we do then? 
<LaserJock> probably ask jdub what the future of fridge is and where it stands
<nixternal> create a spec against something already there?  im not a developer, so i can't tell you what needs to be done, but i can tell you how i think it could rock! ;)
<LaserJock> it could be that there is already a plan in progress that we don't know about
<nixternal> well, maybe you should email him, as i have never gotten a response from him
<LaserJock> did you email him more than once about it?
<nixternal> more then 5 times
<nixternal> i emailed him 5+ for mailing list info
<nixternal> i emailed him letting him know i would be more then willing to help out with the fridge, my plans/future with ubuntu, and what im doing now
<LaserJock> then I suggest it be an agenda item on the next CC, but in a very non-agressive way
<nixternal> oh of course
<nixternal> kind of like hey, it would be cool to get the fridge to function like this ;)
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think even that
<LaserJock> I would be more like, what is the current status and future of fridge as it seems it has become a bit stale and we would like to get it rocking again
<LaserJock> I don't know
<bimberi> um, this looks very relevant -  http://digg.com/linux_unix/Jeff_Waugh_resigns_from_Canonical_to_go_back_to_gnome
<LaserJock> I'd hate to propose any specific changes until we know exactly wha the status and current plans are
<LaserJock> I doubt it's only us that have seen problems lately with fridge
<LaserJock> bimberi: yes, that's my current guess as to why the fridge hasn't been updated for a while
<LaserJock> although there isn't neccessarily a connection there
<LaserJock> people come and go at Canonical but we should try to make sure the community can step in if needed
<LaserJock> maybe it already has, I have no idea
<nixternal> well, if Ubuntu is driven by the community, then i think that the fridge should be as well..of course there are things that shouldn't, but something for the community should be done by the community
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that it isn't exactly, but maybe it could be better
<LaserJock> I have no idea who has access to editing fridge
<LaserJock> all I see is that you can send items to fridg-devel@
<nixternal> 2 or 3 people from experience
<nixternal> jdub is the only one that stands out, as well as sflaw
<LaserJock> you could always email the CC (they have a private ML) and ask if it would be appropriate to bring up at a CC meeting
<LaserJock> I just don't want it to be a negative thing towards jdub because the guy is awesome and works so hard for Ubuntu
<nixternal> oh w/o a doubt..i know how much he means, and i would never do that to anyone, no matter their status quo
<nixternal> LaserJock: i emailed the CC concerning the fridge, and asked if it should be an agenda item at the next cc meeting, or that i was open to communication further via email
* nixternal waits for some news
<LaserJock> cool
<nixternal> alright LaserJock, got it all setup here
<LaserJock> nixternal: ok, so if you load emacs and then do M-x plan
<LaserJock> nixternal: do you get anythin?
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> ok..M-x plan must explain
<LaserJock> do you get a page with Tasks, Schedule, and Notes ?
<nixternal> i get the basic emacs window
<LaserJock> nixternal: you on jabber?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
<nixternal> when i get on with my lappy, paste that to me ;)
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
<RichJ> ty
<LaserJock> np
<RichJ> hehe
<RichJ> i haven't had the chance to read it, but i like his ideas
<RichJ> is there a current Help/Howto/Tutorial template for people to use when creating a wiki page?
<LaserJock> there's the wiki guide
<RichJ> ya, but for people who come from the forums or what not and create a page
<RichJ> i kind of follow my own template when i do them...   i don't do the name of the page because moinmoin does it
<LaserJock> the wiki guide doesn't do that?
<LaserJock> is it too much?
<RichJ> i do ==intro==, ==pre reqs==, ==install==, ==post install==, and so on
<RichJ> im sure the wiki guide does. but i dont' think everyone coming in and creating a page does
<LaserJock> sure
<RichJ> so if there was a template for people to use, it might make the wiki organization easier
<LaserJock> yeah, creating some nice doc templates
<LaserJock> would be nice
<RichJ> hmm
<RichJ> i might start doing some owrk
<RichJ> docbook templates?
<LaserJock> no, for the wiki
<LaserJock> like different templates for different kinds of docs
<RichJ> ahhh
<RichJ> i can create some templates
<LaserJock> I"m trying to think of various types of docs
<LaserJock> mostly they are howtos I suppose
<RichJ> ya
<LaserJock> but if we had a template it might help the pages be more consistent and have all the info required
<RichJ> don't say howtos around mdke_ though...he hates um
<LaserJock> I know
<RichJ> there is a homepage temp, laptop testing team, and others
<RichJ> but no howto ones
<LaserJock> but we need doc templates for help.u.c wiki
<LaserJock> it doesn't need spec templates and homepage templates, for instance
<RichJ> ahhh..
<RichJ> true
<RichJ> well, i will look at it here in a bit and come up something and propose it to the team i guess
<LaserJock> yeah, send something to the ML
<RichJ> i can do that
<LaserJock> ok, I'm off to bed
<RichJ> i get in bed, and now im hungry
<LaserJock> hehe
<RichJ> alrighty, good night sir, and thanks for the emacs stuff
<LaserJock> np
<RichJ> jsgotangco: if you get the chance to grab the drupal theme, lemme know ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm just finishing seting up a gateway with dnsmasq+privoxy (stripping proxy)+polipo  (caching proxy), and i'm happy to write up some docs about it - anyone think its worth it? :)
<RichJ> i would say yes, as i have no clue wth you just said
<RichJ> ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol.
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
* Kamping_Kaiser goes to look at existing squid doc - wonder how comprehensive it is.
* Kamping_Kaiser is supprised bzr isnt in the RCS part of the docs
<mdke_> RichJ: there is a documentation template
<jsgotangco> apparently its not well documented ;)
<mdke_> jsgotangco: it is documented on WikiGuide/PageCreation, and appears in the list of templates whenever you try and create a page...
<jsgotangco> im being funny ;)
<mdke_> aha
<jsgotangco> yeah it doesnt take a lot of work to do more templates even, moin knows if its a template or not
<RichJ> mdke: does the documentation template need to be edited at all?
<RichJ> is there something we can do, in order to bring it to the attention of a person who is posting to the wiki?
<mdke> RichJ: feel free to suggest additions to the template. I can't think of anything more that can be done to bring it to people's attentions
<RichJ> true, just wish there was something that would make it not only easier on us, but easier on the user
<mdke> RichJ: I think it is as easy as it can be, to be honest
<phanatic> mdke: is there a special process for asking to generate docs from rosetta?
<mdke> phanatic: what do you mean by generate?
<phanatic> mdke: we have a fully translated xubuntu guide, and a soon to be ready ubuntu guide translated into hungarian, and we'd like to see them on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> phanatic: no, there is no special process. I just generate them every month or so or whenever I have time
<phanatic> mdke: ok, thanks. is it okay for you that i send you a note when we finish both guides?
<mdke> phanatic: that won't really help, I can't take into account individual requests for specific languages, I just do them all at once
<mdke> I'll do them soon I suppose.
<mdke> nice work doing all that translation
<phanatic> mdke: oh, okay :)
<mpt_> "The audio manager manages everything audio." -- Ekiga help
<mpt_> lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?
<mpt_> lloydinho_: <mpt_ > lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?
<lloydinho_> no.
<lloydinho_> mpt: I hate that the doc does that automatically, I forget it all the time.
<lloydinho_> *doc list*
<lloydinho_> mpt_!
<mpt_> The only Ubuntu list that works a different way, as far as I know, is ubuntu-women@
<lloydinho_> really?
<lloydinho_> well, I'll just resend it to the entire list then.
<mpt_> ok, thanks
<lloydinho_> np. It's just troublesome that doing a reply requires conscious thought to make sure that it ends up in the right place... ;-)
<mdke> conscious thought = bad
<mpt_> All e-mail programs suck
<mpt_> If I was designing an e-mail program, it would have "Reply to Author", "Reply to List", and "Reply to All" togglebuttons in the composition window itself
<jjesse> squirell webmail has that
<jjesse> so when i want to reply to the list I simply click on "reply to list" and it does that
<mpt_> cool
<mdke> so what is the position with the doc-commits list? is it officially not working?
<jjesse> mdke: i havent' received any emails about the packaging guid changes
<mdke> me neither
<nixternal> well hello there everyone ;)
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
* mdke swears at planet Ubuntu, which still refuses to syndicate his blog
<mdke> does anyone know how I get the text after the image to start again from underneath the image in http://www.mdke.org/blog/HelpMenu.html ??
<mpt_> http://www.alia.org.uk/imastecha/2003/10/newbie-20031026-04b.jpg
<mdke> :)
<mdke> mpt_: you will clearly know the answer to my question
<mdke> any ideas?
<mpt_> Er, I wasn't posting that in reference to anyone in particular
<mpt_> honest!
<mpt_> I just happened across it while looking for an icon for the "New to Ubuntu 6.10?" help category :-)
* mdke slinks off
<mpt_> mdke, the easy way is to start the next paragraph with <p style="clear: both;">
<mpt_> A more elegant way would be to have something like this in your style sheet:
* mdke tries the easy way
<mpt_> img {display: block;}
<mpt_> img.icon {display: inline;}
<mpt_> then use <img class="icon"...> for smileys and the like
<mpt_> though, if you ever do end up on Planet Ubuntu, the easy solution would survive the syndication, while the elegant way would not
<mdke> two votes for the easy way
<mdke> thanks
<mpt_> BTW, for that image appropriate alt text would be alt="a 'System Documentation' item, then an 'Online Documentation' item, then a 'Community Support' item, then a 'Commercial Support' item, and finally an 'Ubuntu Book Excerpt' item."
<mdke> blimey
<mpt_> so that if the image is unavailable for whatever reason I can understand what you're talking about
<mdke> yeah, I see
<mpt_> So, three items in the menu, you think? :-)
<mdke> your view?
<mdke> I don't really mind how many items, as long as they are coherent
<mpt_> I'd be delighted with 4 for Edgy
<mpt_> and 3 for Funky
<mpt_> (if the linking from yelp search to help.ubuntu.com search can be implemented by then)
<mpt_> but ultimately I'd be aiming for 1 :-)
<mdke> well, the system documentation can certainly refer to help.ubuntu.com on the front page, that takes it down to 3 for Edgy
<mdke> it doesn't need to be completely integrated
<newz2000> mdke: ping me when you have a moment... wanted your (and other doc team members') opinion on something.
<mpt_> Hi newz2000, we were just discussing the possibility of sprucing up the http://www.ubuntu.com/support pages
<newz2000> That's a good idea
<mpt_> How should we submit such a redesign? As a bug report with Moin markup attached?
<newz2000> Yeah, that works fine
<mpt_> ok
<mpt_> Is the top-level "Support" heading =Support=, or ==Support==?
<newz2000> I probably want to get that aproved by ops... that's kind of the an important page to canonical
<mpt_> understood
<newz2000> = Support =
* mpt_ daydreams about A-vs.-B testing
<mpt_> newz2000, thanks
<mdke> newz2000: sure
<newz2000> Since we've got at least three matt's here I guess we're capable of discussing this... :D
<mpt_> The Matt Committee will now come to order
<mdke> mpt_: something people have been doing for submitting spruced up web pages is to work on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website and subpages
<newz2000> Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website
<newz2000> What are your thoughts on that?
<mdke> newz2000: sounds good. I don't think I understand the question
<mpt_> What do they want to put on such a site?
<newz2000> My first thought was, "Why don't they just use wiki.ubuntu.com?"
<mdke> ah. I see. No, I think local websites are absolutely essential
<mdke> most local teams have them already
<mdke> http://ubuntu-it.org/ (then replace "it" with fr, nl, be, whatever)
<newz2000> yeah
<newz2000> Now I could easily redirect www.ubuntu-ve.org to the wiki as well.
<newz2000> But the question is, where does the content fit best
<mpt_> Community, perhaps
<mdke> are you suggesting redirecting all local teams websites and support sites to the wiki?
<mdke> I don't think I'm following very well
<newz2000> Sorry for not being clear...
<newz2000> Is there any reason not to put the loco team's content in the wiki and redirect to it from their home page, or does that type of content not fit well with the purpose of the wiki?
<mdke> well, all existing local teams have their own websites, with forums, documentation, news etc. I think the same should be available to all new ones
<newz2000> Good point
<mdke> the wiki is generally used for community coordination, but not presentation
* mpt_ doesn't know enough about what locos put on their sites
<mdke> so teams work out specs on it and so on, but a website is very useful for marketing ubuntu in a particular country/language
<newz2000> That's true.
<newz2000> And I guess they may want to translate the navigation into their local language
<mdke> mpt_: most local teams provide exactly the same resources that the international Ubuntu community provides: information about Ubuntu, news, documentation, forum, mailing list, planet, etc
<mpt_> So what I'm thinking is that in ten years when Canonical has become a giant company with national offices, it decides "oh, we actually need to put professional stuff on these sites, sorry" ...
<newz2000> mpt_ I don't see that really happening
<mpt_> so maybe there's a useful distinction between loco teams, and "official" stuff
<mdke> canonical != Ubuntu
<mdke> local teams are completely community run
<mpt_> I know
<mpt_> but ubuntu.com isn't community-run
<newz2000> I keep trying to phrase this so as not to sound lazy... I'm thinking more on eficiency...
<newz2000> I've got two teams who just want a moin wiki that uses the ubuntu theme.
<newz2000> And i get the impression they want me to manage their site for them. :-] 
<mdke> ok. I think it depends what they want to do with it
<mdke> if it is team coordination, they should use the main wiki
<mdke> if documentation, it should be their choice, but the administration and theming is also up to them
<mpt_> Sorry, I naturally think of edge cases
<mdke> many existing teams can help with that
<mpt_> newz2000, I would be inclined to say "you're welcome to use wiki.ubuntu.com" and leave it at that
<mdke> that's basically the existing system, anyway
<newz2000> Well, I'm not going to dictate what they have to do... I'm thinking along the lines of,
<mpt_> newz2000, another potential problem is if some loco has a (petty but) bitter disagreement and splits in two, then both subgroups try to claim ownership of the site you've given them
<newz2000> "I'm happy to give you the theme and setup moin on the server so that you can use it on your site. You'll have to admin it and manage it. You can also just put a redirect to your loco's team area on the main wiki i fyou like."
<newz2000> mpt_ we give the site for free... that dispute is easy to resolve I think.
<newz2000> But I wouldn't want to give them that message if the wiki.ubuntu.com is an inapropriate place to put loco team websites.
<newz2000> I know you guys are trying to get stuff organized and I'd hate to be working against you
<mdke> newz2000: that sounds right. I would add that for team management the main wiki is appropriate
<mdke> newz2000: note that there is a mailing list and irc channel for discussing loco stuff, the docteam doesn't really work with them. #ubuntu-locoteams and loco-contacts@
<nixternal> [10:18]  <newz2000> Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website
* nixternal raises his hand
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> hiya newz2000
<newz2000> nixternal: Hi. Yes, that's exactly what I'm disscussing
<nixternal> sweet!
<mdke> nixternal: what is the wiki to be used for?
<nixternal> mdke: http://chi.ubuntu-us.org   Chicago LoCo website
<nixternal> i would like the site to mimic ubuntu.com
<mdke> well, for a website, I think granting hosting is entirely appropriate. It's team management that should stay on the wiki
<mdke> nixternal: eh? mimic ubuntu.com? People in Chicago already know English...
<mdke> why overlap?
<nixternal> look the same as
<nixternal> not word for word
<mdke> well, don't overlap... otherwise it will get confusing
<newz2000> do you want some stuff on your wiki that would make it inapropriate for inclusion in the regular wiki?
<nixternal> no
<newz2000> nixternal: btw, I'm glad your here to help out with this conversation... I've got one other guy who's asked for exactly the same setup
<nixternal> that is why i have been contemplating using drupal instead, and do all wiki stuff under /ChicagoTeam if necessary
<mdke> bear in mind that the regular wiki is a community area, it is not for websites...
<mdke> so where a team wishes to make a website, regardless of the software they want to use, the regular wiki is unlikely to be appropriate
<nixternal> truthfully, the only thing i want on chicago loco site is a nice looking front page, small forums section, and possibly some blog space for the members
<newz2000> nixternal: how about this...
<nixternal> which i can do with drupal
<newz2000> for the homepage and forums, use the webhosting space and for wiki type stuff redirect to the wiki.
<newz2000> w.u.c/ChicagoGroup
<nixternal> thats what i plan on doing newz2000, because i worked with MoinMoin here and it is definately to much for what we need
<newz2000> I was just going to say that managing moin can be a chore
<mdke> that's sensible, but if somebody wants to use moinmoin as a CMS for their homepage, are we going to say no just because it is wiki software?
<nixternal> im just interested in having a similar layout & design as ubuntu.com. so as to make the team look "official" in a way
<newz2000> mdke: I'm not going to say no, I'll give them what they need to do it.
<newz2000> I just think that moin can be a bit of chore to setup and maintain (especially theme stuff)
<nixternal> it is more then a chore
<nixternal> i had a heck of time with it ;)
<mdke> that makes perfect sense
<mdke> nixternal: you can achieve the similar layout with any cms you like :)
<nixternal> what would be nice, is to publish the theme used for ubuntu.com, moinmoin and drupal if possible..there are a couple of sites that look similar to ubuntu.com that are loco teams, and getting the theme has proved difficult
<mdke> we can do that. In the past I've hosted them at ubuntu-it.org
<mdke> for locoteams who want to use em
<nixternal> that would be great
<newz2000> mdke: Can you give an example of what you think is "crossing the line" for a loco team who is using the wiki as their website?
<newz2000> As in, "you really need to host this outside of the wiki"
<nixternal> i would say hosting pictures and what not of all their events might be a little to much (im sure you know where im going with it)
<mdke> newz2000:I think loco websites which are aimed at the general public can be done outside the wiki (if the local team wishes to do so), whereas things like team coordination, internal things, are best done on the wiki (especially if in English) because others can share those ideas.
<newz2000> ok, so, "Here's where we meet, our next meeting is .... minutes from last meetings are ..." is all good stuff for wiki based team sites
<newz2000> wiki.ubuntu.com that is
<mdke> right, in particular English teams
<mdke> that's broadly the current system, as far as I can see
<newz2000> ok. So for non-english sites you'd encourage them to have their own wiki?
<mdke> I don't think it matters much
<mdke> we do it on our wiki for the italian team
<mdke> but our wiki is also used for documentation, so it gets plenty of use
<newz2000> ok. I think I'm getting the concept straight in my mind.
<mdke> newz2000: one more thing to bear in mind is that european teams can get hosting from a non-canonical source, the french and german teams have some servers which they offer for use
<mdke> that is incredibly badly documented, I'm afraid
<newz2000> Are those different than my servers?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I meant "non-Canonical" :)
<newz2000> Wow... we have them all over the place.
<newz2000> I see
<newz2000> Do you happen to know if thats something related to smurf's stuff?
<mdke> smurf is one of the admins, but it is not related to his server, no
<newz2000> ok. That's good to know.
<mdke> they are servers which the french team was given
<newz2000> mdke: changing subjects, I put your style sheet in place and it broke the site. I quickly switched it out.
<newz2000> The logo disappeared and there was a whit bar going across the top
<newz2000> (white, not whit)
<newz2000> Do you want to see it? I can put it in again for a moment if you like.
* mdke blinks
<mdke> newz2000: what site?
<newz2000> wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> newz2000: should have been help.ubuntu.com/community
<newz2000> Gr... I should never trust my memory
<newz2000> let me try that again then. :-] 
<mdke> it was just a one line change to #message, if I recall correctly
<newz2000> That's what I thought you said. Before I did it I diffed and found lots of changes.
* newz2000 is embarrased
<newz2000> Interesting...
<newz2000> that site isn't set up like the other wikis.
<mdke> I haven't seen the setup
<newz2000> well, actually, I'm wrong.
<newz2000> It is setup just like all the other wikis, however unlike the other wikis which live in the root folder, this one is in a subfolder.
<newz2000> Therefore I expected the wiki stuff to also be in that subfolder.
<newz2000> mdke: ok, its done.
<mdke> newz2000: thanks very much
<newz2000> no prob.
<mdke> nixternal: that was a request of yours to make the popups smaller, iirc
<nixternal> which popups?
<newz2000> brb
<mdke> on the help wiki, those blue boxes that Moin uses to send you messages
<nixternal> they are a tad bit large yes
<mdke> now they should be better
<nixternal> ohhh..ya, up top
<nixternal> awesome
<nixternal> the after edit, redirect messages up top look great now
<nixternal> hiya LaserJock
<nixternal> btw, Muse and EmacsWiki aren't friends..i had to totally change the setup for the lappy...now i just need to figure out how to save it as .html and not .muse when i publish it
<newz2000> I did some experimentation with that message on the bzr site... (I too found it anoying)
<newz2000> http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion?action=show&redirect=BzrSvn
<newz2000> I had to sneak a few easter eggs in... if you click "clear message" it just hides the box, it doesn't refresh the page.
<newz2000> (unless you have javascript turned off... then you get the old behavior)
<nixternal> now that is sweet
<newz2000> Its still got one minor bug in it (which I'm fixing now)
<newz2000> Some of the other links on the page get ruined
<mdke> nice effect
<newz2000> If it doesn't interfere with usability its fun to have a little eye candy now and then
<LaserJock> nixternal: this the relevent part of my .emacs: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18789
<mdke> newz2000: absolutely, sometimes improves usability :)
<nixternal> ty LaserJock
<jjesse> mdke; just received notification about r3183 from doc-commits
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> perhaps I need to stop late-night commit messages
<lloydinho_> newz2000: Still around?
<newz2000> lloydinho_ yes
<lloydinho_> I was just looking at the Community support subpage on ubuntu.com
<lloydinho_> In the Ubuntu Website Section - there's a link which doesn't lead anywhere.
<lloydinho_> "support/documentation project documentation"
<lloydinho_> I guess it's a MoinMoin thing.
<mpt_> newz2000, while you're there, it's not appropriate for /support to link to wiki.ubuntu.com any more
<mpt_> since all the help stuff is on help.ubuntu.com
<newz2000> mpt_: ok, I can fix that quickly. lloydinho_ can you send me a link to the page... I'm not seeing it
<mpt_> thanks newz2000 
<lloydinho_> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/free - all the way down at the bottom
<newz2000> gotcha
<lloydinho_> thanks! ;-)
<newz2000> let me make a note... Right now I'm updating FAQ
* mpt_ was just getting depressed at the FAQ
<newz2000> Linking to attachments is giving me a fit
<newz2000> what am I doing wrong? [attachment:support/faq/ShipIt+Generic+Customs+Letter+Chinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 
<mpt_> I didn't know you could do that in Moin
<newz2000> You can do it in 1.5
<newz2000> If you use the gui it even has an nice little dialog that creates the link for you from a list of attachments
<newz2000> and http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnActions/AttachFile implies you can do it in older versions too
* newz2000 throws up his hands
<LaserJock> lol, and Corey's patch came in on -commits after mine, weird
<newz2000> To make it harder, 5 times out of 6, the text box cuts off my content mid-way.
<mpt_> newz2000, I know about attachment:filename, but not about [attachment:filename link text] 
<mpt_> Have you used that syntax before?
<newz2000> oh
<newz2000> I just assumed it would work the way other links work.
<mpt_> Past 5am, time for sleep...
<LaserJock> yikes
<newz2000> Hmm... my only problem seems to have been spaces in the file name. This works: [attachment:CustomsChinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 
<jjesse> mdke: looks like doc-committs is catching up. saw reviesion 3181 come across
<nixternal> man, i just realize that wiht my marinenet account for the military, i can do all the of the linux LPI courses and what not for free
<nixternal> there is just one problem
<jjesse> that's nice, you should get the ubuntu certification after you get lpi :)
<nixternal> This is an SSL secure site. You are either trying to access this site with a browser using less than 128 bit encryption or not using HTTPS.
<nixternal> LaserJock: i heard back from C. Watson as well concerning the fridge
<LaserJock> yeah?
<nixternal> no need for it at the CC, and to contact the fridge-dev
<nixternal> or the fridge-admin..the emal address that is on the fridge
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> hmm
<nixternal> installin' emacs, muse-el, planner-el, remember-el on this computer now
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> im addicted
<nixternal> i am definately using that for note takin' at the uni
<mdke> jjesse: yes, I bugged the admins and it looks like they fixed it
<mdke> or not :)
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> mdke: who is Spads?
<mdke> his irc name says "I'm a bird, I'm a board, I'm a flying horse!"
<mdke> in reality, he is an admin
<LaserJock> LP?
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/people/nick-zork
<LaserJock> ah cool
<LaserJock> so he joins elmo and znarl with being contantly bugged by people :-)
<mdke> right
<nixternal> LaserJock: watch this!!!
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> ^^ that is irc emacs style
<jjesse> what are we supposed to watch
<jjesse> ?
<nixternal> however, i can't get it to send to the channel
<crimsun> you /are/ sending to the channel.
<nixternal> ahh, i bet it hasn't syncd yet, thats why
<crimsun> /msg #ubuntu-doc like this.
<crimsun> like this.
<RichJ> like this
<nixternal> gotta fix that
<RichJ> there is a lot that needs to be tweaked
<LaserJock> yeah, I still user irssi for IRC
<nixternal> i use konversation still...but..if the new version isn't to my liking, im done with it
<RichJ> i gotta figure out how to switch
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-25
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<theCore> hello LaserJock
<LaserJock> theCore: the packaging guide is updated on doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> theCore: and btw, we got another emacs convert ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock: cool
<theCore> :)
<theCore> another Emaculate!
<LaserJock> I showed nixternal planner-el
<nixternal> now im addicted
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> i have muse, planner, remember, and rcirc
<theCore> I need to test that ...
<theCore> nixternal: ERC is better
<theCore> for IRC
<nixternal> i will try it as well
<theCore> I think it's at ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/erc
<theCore> I'm not sure, though
<theCore> yep, that the right address
<nixternal> Fujitsu: pingaling!!!
<nixternal> didn't even give his irc client time to sync
<nixternal> sorry bout that
<Fujitsu> nixternal, pong, again.
<Fujitsu> I keep being disconnected :(
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i know the feeling
<Fujitsu> Why are you pinging me, anyway?
<nixternal> im just interested in seeing if it is possible to attain a copy of the Australian team's Drupal theme for the Chicago team?
<Fujitsu> Aha. Of course. I'll tar it up and put it somewhere for you to get.
<nixternal> you are a god send..thank you so much!!!
<Fujitsu> It should now be at http://people.ubuntu.com.au/~fujitsu/drupal_theme.tar.bz2
<nixternal> thank you Fujitsu!!!
<nixternal> you rock!
<Fujitsu> No problem! If you have any issues with it, just ask.
<nixternal> thanks, i really appreciate the help on this one
<theCore> good, end of my viral marketing ...
<theCore> :)
<theCore> Compiz sells Linux well
<theCore> LaserJock: so, did you made a lot of changes?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> not like content wise
<LaserJock> but structurally
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: hi!
<jsgotangco> hey!
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I had a talk with Ian today about the developer's reference
<jsgotangco> oh neat
<jsgotangco> what happened?
<LaserJock> he said to grab the docbook
<LaserJock> !
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> so I'm going to switch over to doing the thing in docbook
<LaserJock> I also mentioned that there is a newer version out
<jsgotangco> id like to dive in to that for this cycle
<LaserJock> he said to just grab the latest I can get
<jsgotangco> ok do you already have a plan for it?
<LaserJock> he said for the most part it will be tough no matter what we do, which I agree with
<LaserJock> not sure
<LaserJock> I'd like to do some revision control
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> do you prefer it on our svn or bzr?
<nixternal> Fujitsu_: it seems all i need now are the header.png files, tab background files..images
<LaserJock> I'm thinking it would be better to do it bzr perhaps, what do you think?
<LaserJock> I tend to think putting it in the doc team repo is not a good idea
<Fujitsu_> nixternal, aha... Can you grab them from the webserver, or should I tar them up?
<nixternal> i can try to grab um via right click save i guess..but i don't know about tabs
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: i'm all for bzr but if its too big, we should put it elsewhere and not in LP imo
<jsgotangco> i like the idea of having all the revisions as well
<LaserJock> big as far as size?
<Fujitsu_> nixternal, just find them in ubuntu.com.au/images/whatever
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> but since they're just source files i dont think they're that big
<nixternal> roger that
<nixternal> thanks
<LaserJock> 3.0MB is the whole thing with HTML and pdf versions
<jsgotangco> that's not bad
<jsgotangco> can't we just use the source files?
<LaserJock> I think so
<LaserJock> I need to get the docbook source first though
<LaserJock> I emailed about it today
<jsgotangco> ahh so its not somewhere out there
<LaserJock> apparently not yet
<LaserJock> some of the Debian doc people are testing it out
<nixternal> Fujitsu_: is there any crazy hacks that i need to do in order for the images to work?   i must be missing something, or i  really am retarded ;)
* LaserJock thinks about answering that but decides he will be nice tonight :-)
<nixternal> heh, i know im retarded
<nixternal> the theme works...almost
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: can you inform me when you have it as well so i could help out on it. im pretty much interested on it for this cycle
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: cool, will do
<draik> Hello everyone
<Fujitsu> Hi draik.
<draik> I'm new to Kubuntu... Linux all together
<draik> Hi Fujitsu
<draik> As I have been going along, I have been taking notes of things that I have done and how to do them
<draik> I was wondering if I can submit them to contribute to any possible docs
<draik> I am using Kubuntu 6.06
<draik> Dapper Drake
<bimberi_> draik: hi
<draik> bimbiri_ hi
<draik> bimberi_ sorry
<bimberi_> draik: you might contact the authors of these emails...
<bimberi_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2006-July/000579.html
<bimberi_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2006-July/000699.html
<bimberi_> draik: it sounds like your notes would be ideal for those projects
<bimberi_> possibly
<draik> I hope so
<draik> I was reading about project Switch
<draik> I have 3 groups of people waiting for me to get the hang of Kubuntu so I can explain it to them so that they can move to it
<draik> they are all fed up with windoze
<bimberi_> wow, sounds great!
<draik> I have a minor experience with Knoppix
<bimberi_> project Switch? link?
<draik> your first link
<bimberi_> oh 
<bimberi_> *blushes*
<draik> Current ideas for the switch project:
<draik> *Get people to switch to ubuntu and keep a blog of their opinions and such
<draik> of it.
<draik> LOL
<bimberi_> yep, i had 'user data project' in mind
<draik> same thing
<bimberi_> yep
<draik> it's just 
<draik> for the purposes of remembering it easily I have code named this "switch"
<draik> project.
<draik> Thank you bimberi_
<draik> I will let them know so that I can pass this notebook through to them
<bimberi_> draik: np, also feel free to check http://help.ubuntu.com against your notes as well :)
<draik> bimberi_ that is perfect. Thank you
<RichJ> quiet in doc land
<draik> bimberi_, I have downloaded that PDF to Kubuntu. I was reviewing it and so far my information is consitant
<draik> I have been asking around as well just to be sure I have my information together before I get/give the wrong idea
<kgoetz> hi all, thought i should reping this (as i was working on it), would it be worthwile for me to do some wiki pages/docbook/both on setting up privoxy, dnsmasq, polipo, and perhaps one on making polipo and privoxy play nicely?
<Madpilot> kgoetz, wiki pages would be the best place to start
<kgoetz> Madpilot: ok. i'll do that then
* kgoetz is happy to do xml as well, as long as its going to be usefull :) its to much work for not being used
<Madpilot> I've no idea what *any* of that stuff is, though ;)
<Madpilot> kgoetz, if it's server-level stuff, ask on the list about adding to the Server Guide; if it's desktop stuff, we might be able to find space for it in an expanded Desktop Guide. In either case, start on the wiki
<kgoetz> dnsmasq=dns proxy+dhcp server, polipo=caching proxy, privoxy=trimming/blocking/add removing proxy
<kgoetz> so wiki it is
* mdke mornings
<jsgotangco> hi
* kgoetz greets mdke + jsgotangco 
<Madpilot> morning
<kgoetz> 3 more sub pages added to my wiki home - now to fill them with meaningless content :)
<mdke> mpt_: around?
<mdke> mpt__: here?
* mdke tries all variations of mpt
<mpt__> mdke, present!
* mpt__ tries to remember which movie it is that has the supervillain behind one of many mirrors
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> mpt__: about that searching business
<mpt__> Tango & Cash?
<mpt__> yes!
<mpt__> search
<mdke> would you be prepared to engage with the moin people to ask about whether the moin search can do what you need it to do for yelp?
<mdke> obviously the moin search is pretty deeply ingraining because it is used for a lot of features, like categories, and other macros. But maybe in 1.5 there have been some improvements and you can talk about whether you can make it yelp-happy
<mpt__> ok
<manicka> the gui editing in 1.5 would be  a bonus for new contributers
<mdke> mpt__: BTW, I haven't said thanks yet for everything you are doing upstream, it's really great
<mdke> manicka: well need to have a think about whether we want to allow gui editing  it might have a detrimental effect and make people lazy about formatting. that was something the new webmaster mentioned to me the other day. Anyway, we will certainly be moving to Moin 1.5 very soon
<mpt__> hmm, it's not looking promising
<manicka> who is the new webmaster
<mdke> manicka: guy called Matthew Nuzum
<mdke> mpt__: the search thing?
<manicka> k
<mpt__> mdke, yes, see http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MoinMoinTodo/ExtendedSearch
<mpt__> particularly the later sections
<mdke> right
<mdke> mpt__: what about the integration with yelp. You mentioned something about GET?
<mpt__> mdke, that's no big deal, it just means that Yelp has to be able to generate the search URL itself -- that's possible with Moin as it is currently
<mdke> oh, fine
<mdke> I may have misunderstood that bug. So the yelp integration is now currently possible?
<mpt__> so Ubuntu Yelp would have prefix = "https://help.ubuntu.com/community?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=" and suffix = "&fullsearch=Text"
<mdke> right
<mpt__> yes, it just produces bad results
<mdke> so the points about including markup is just a basic bug with moin, I don't see why any presentational wiki would want that behaviour
<mpt__> https://help.ubuntu.com/community?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=how+do+I+burn+a+cd%3F&fullsearch=Text
<mdke> including www.u.c
<mdke> the point about stop words too
<mpt__> https://help.ubuntu.com/community?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=synaptic+error&fullsearch=Text
<mpt__> etc
<mdke> sounds like a feature request that would be useful for moin in general, not just our wiki
<mpt__> true
<mdke> if you don't get a good reply on #moin, try the mailing list
<mdke> gmane.comp.web.wiki.moin.general if you use gmane
<mdke> otherwise, it's on their wiki somewhere
<manicka> mdke, I've just been having a good look at the user docs section... things are much neater now :)
<manicka> Is there any interest in porting of existing data from the udsf or forums to the wiki.
<manicka> I'm interested because user generated how-tos still seem to be a 'search and find' only affair
<manicka> hmm, i just noticed that they are ther but you have to dig quite deep to find them
<manicka> I guess i'm asking... what if I could gather a team to start moving some guides over
<manicka> where would they go? 
<manicka> etc?
<manicka> what process would need to be followed?
<mpt__> First, fix the help.ubuntu.com license problem
<mpt__> Then, ask the individual authors
<manicka> what license problem?
<mpt__> That stuff contributed to the wiki so far is of ambiguous license and therefore cannot be incorporated, for example, into GFDL/CC-BY-SA help pages
<kgoetz> so do people need to explicity licence their pages? or its now asumed under free licence?
<mpt__> kgoetz, eventually, hopefully, all *new* pages will be public domain
<mpt__> with all old pages remaining under the ambiguous license
* kgoetz asumed his edits were 'free'
<mdke> manicka: yes, I'm about to embark on another dialogue with the UDSF people
<mdke> manicka: as for the process, it is documented at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<mdke> I added "porting material from the forums" as one of the objectives of the wiki team at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
<manicka> ok, thanks
<mdke> manicka: what is the best way for me to contact some UDSF people and talk about some sharing of material?
<mdke> is there a mailing list/forum?
* mdke finds the forum
<jsgotangco> i think king bahamut already split the fourm
<jsgotangco> (left the forum i mean)
<mdke> there is a UDSF section though, is that no longer valid?
<jsgotangco> there was this big (i heard) fight in the forum remember?
<jsgotangco> so i guess its not that valid anymore
<jsgotangco> i think this is still the canonical link http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<mpt__> The UDSF is amusing
<jsgotangco> :D
<kgoetz> yay. finished one of my wikipages
* kgoetz needs to read teh styleguide ... hm.
<mdke> there is lots of material on the forums that it would be nice to see filter onto the help wiki
<mdke> somehow or other
<jsgotangco> i thought thats what the USDF did
<jsgotangco> or UDSF
<jsgotangco> gahh these military style acronyms
<mdke> it is yeah, except they have their own site. I'd like to see some material filtering onto the help wiki. maybe the UDSF people can help
<mdke> manicka: if you want to draw up a formal group for that sort of thing, that would be a good idea I think... we can document it and it can be a subset of the wikiteam
<mdke> mpt__: about that search thing, if you can draw up a few ideas, maybe even a spec, I think we might be able to find a few people interested in working on the code.
<mpt__> mdke, good idea
<mpt__> mdke, what did you think of the help page structure I posted?
<mpt__> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-July/006792.html
<jsgotangco> the example looks great
<kgoetz> i was asking about writing some stuff, madpilot sugested the wiki -> thats the 1st page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarlGoetz/PolipoHowto
<mdke> mpt__: sorry yeah, need to reply. I think it may be difficult to achieve this with docbook in the time we have for edgy, and waiting for upstream's more simple markup with modular help may work better
<mdke> we can do our best tho
<jsgotangco> it would be interesting by gnome 2.18 for sure
<mdke> hope so
<mdke> mpt: alright, I've written a proper response to your mail
<kgoetz> well i'm taking this opertunity to head home - just thought i would link you to my 4 pages for today :| https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarlGoetz/DnsmasqPolipoPrivoxyTogether, the other 3 are linked off it in the section "Order of configuration"
<Kamping_Kaiser> home again :)
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<nixternal> jjesse: what all is involved with khelpcenter, and is there anything i can do to help with everything?
<jjesse> nixternal: no clue actually
<nixternal> heh, ok..i will look into it a little further
<nixternal> i got some more cd's today and stickers
<Burgwork> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/25/ubuntu_goes_mainstream/
<jjesse> gotta love this quote: ""My interpretation of that is that our documentation sucks so badly that people have to search a lot..." jokes Shuttleworth."
<jjesse> ouch
<Burgwork> indeed
<jjesse> though the term ubuntu is defined in the book
<jjesse> along w/ the term kubuntu
<mdke> LaserJock: pong
<nixternal> LaserJock: ping?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> sorry, ran to grab a burger
<nixternal> you read the marketing list at all?
<LaserJock> me, no
<nixternal> well, the fridge is open to the community now it seems
<LaserJock> mdke: I was wondering about making articles that would tie in the rest of the docs
<nixternal> and matthewrevell from the marketing team/lug radio along with a few others are admin's now i guess
<jjesse> is that part of the big changes due to the leaving of jdub ?
<nixternal> i have no clue...you want me to forward the email to the doc list or to you guys individually?
<LaserJock> I can go take a look
<nixternal> or ya
<nixternal> goto the list and look ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: I was reading you're reply to mpt's email about the help page design
<LaserJock> nixternal: hehe, you sound a bit enthusiastic
<nixternal> im always enthusiastic
<nixternal> right now im knee deep in php getting ready to launch ubuntu chicago
<LaserJock> mediawiki?
<jjesse> how bout geting knee deep in switching from windows :)
<nixternal> drupal
<crimsun> heh, I'll be at UC next week
<nixternal> really
<nixternal> gah..i will be on vacation starting friday
<mdke> LaserJock: right
<nixternal> i have a couple uc guys on the team
<nixternal> uic rather
<crimsun> in the CS dept.?
<nixternal> i think 1 is
<crimsun> I'll be there for a few hours
<LaserJock> mdke: would it be possible to make overview articles that link to the guides?
<mdke> LaserJock: of course
<nixternal> jonathan swaciger is one of the guys...
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm
<manicka> mdke, I dropped off (sleep)and missed some of the discussion re the udsf. I'll see what I can do about forming such a team and get back to you. It may be small to start with
<LaserJock> mdke: I think andreas and I would be interested in doing a "Contributing to Ubuntu" article
<manicka> and the best way to contact kb for discussion is via email I guess
<mdke> manicka: I'll do that
<mdke> LaserJock: that would be very nice.
<mdke> I think that could be a great top level document
<manicka> frodon is the other key player at the udsf
<manicka> KB's right hand man
<mdke> I've encountered him briefly on the forum, seems very sensible
<mdke> ok, I'll mail them tomorrow
* mdke goes away for the evening
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-26
<Burgwork> http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=65791
<LaserJock> Burgwork: interesting
<Burgwork> shows the importance of a unified doc effort
<LaserJock> Burgwork: can you help with a quick wiki cleanup?
<LaserJock> or are you busy?
<Burgwork> which page?
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenOnEdgy
<LaserJock> poor zul is just not a doc guy
<Burgwork> oh joy
<Burgwork> there is a bunch
<Burgwork> I will do a bunch of moving tonight
<LaserJock> well, he is the Xen packager, so I think the contents should be ok
<LaserJock> it's jut not very pretty
<crimsun> you probably want to check with him first [if those are his]  before you rearrange stuff
<LaserJock> I did ;-)
<LaserJock> he asked for help
<crimsun> excellent.
<LaserJock> at least for that one page
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm, they manage to pack a lot of docs on that MySQL page
<Burgwork> utter whack --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnifiedUbuntuBranding
<LaserJock> hmm, certainly verbose
<Burgwork> it is also never going to happen
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> so, im looking through screenshots right to link to on http://chi.ubuntu-us.org
<nixternal> and ubuntu and edubuntu has 2 sweet pages for screenshots
<nixternal> then there is kubuntu..they dont' even have their own screenshots, they link to other sites who slap their freakin' logos on the images, and 2 of the sites where the screenshots exist use flash to show them
<nixternal> that isn't good in my eyes..however, xubuntu isn't as bad, but i can't find any :)
<Burgwork> ah, yes
<Burgwork> the kde community is noticably bad about marketing
<nixternal> ;(
<Burgwork> it is systemic in their community
<Burgwork> see planet.kde vs planet gnome and number of screenshots
<nixternal> i love KDE, as i have used it forever, but what i have been seeing is getting worse and worse i think
<Madpilot> nixternal, switch to Gnome, you know you want to! ;)
<nixternal> gah
<nixternal> i would rather swallow razor blades ;)
<Burgwork> same feeling going the other way from me
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what do planets have to do with marketing?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, they are marketing to early adopters and developers
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> I just thought they were ranting's of developers, and not very interesting to the general population
<Burgwork> you must look at everything you produce as marketing
<Burgwork> even if only to think of adding a screenshot
<crimsun> nixternal: we don't necessary care about screenshots ;-)
<crimsun> necessarily ^
<LaserJock> crimsun: everybody knows it rocks, right?
<nixternal> ya, but for advocational purposes they are nice to show
<crimsun> LaserJock: nope, and for those who don't, their loss ;-)
<Burgwork> kde people are all telepathic and beam new images of the new hotness into each others heads
<crimsun> [j/k of course] 
<Burgwork> it is why they are all drolling anti-social geeks ;)
<crimsun> nixternal: certainly. You should shoot Gauvain and Jani an e-mail.
<crimsun> nixternal: or...raise it on the xubuntu-devel list.
<nixternal> ya, i just might do so, or i just might create them myself ;)
<Burgwork> something like /desktop can be stolen very easily
<Burgwork> nixternal, I can get you the raw source to that if you want, in moin format
<Burgwork> or you can get it yourself via ?action=raw
<nixternal> Burgwork: i agree, and i think that all 4 sites should be based the same, with their own flare...ubuntu.com and edubuntu.com look great...xubuntu.com looks good as well, just don't follow the flow..and kubuntu.org follows the flow, but looks like a really bad blog
<nixternal> i can read the text on kubuntu.org from 30 feet away ;)
<Burgwork> edubuntu is the best developed
<Burgwork> in terms of marketing, that is
<crimsun> Burgwork: well arguably it has the most difficult job
<crimsun> (and should have the best)
<crimsun> not that getting them all to some parity isn't a worthy objective
<Burgwork> I would argue it has the easiest time marketing and hardest time selling
<Burgwork> it already has a defined niche to sell to, it is just hard to close deals in that niche
<crimsun> Burgwork: right, s/job/time\ selling/
<LaserJock> I was a little confused by the kubuntu and xubuntu sites
<Burgwork> ubuntu isn't much better about telling you what ubuntu is
<Burgwork> anyway,  I need to go home
<LaserJock> cya
<robotgeek> howz we doing?
<nixternal> http://chi.ubuntu-us.org
<nixternal> its getting there
<LaserJock> almost makes me wish I lived in Chicago.... almost
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i have been hacking php and css all day long
<nixternal> and graphics
<nixternal> i need new ubuntu, kubuntu, and xubuntu logos, as they look blurry
<crimsun> being worked on
<nixternal> ?
<nixternal> ahh...it is constructed, now edited ;)
<jsgotangco> nice nice
<nixternal> it looks pretty close to ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> hmm it does
* jsgotangco wonders if loco-olympics is a good idea
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> explain it to me?
<jsgotangco> im still thinking
<jsgotangco> hehe
<nixternal> sounds pretty cool
<jsgotangco> something to spur contribution
<jsgotangco> then get points
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> that would be fun
<jsgotangco> yeah
<nixternal> who would win?
<jsgotangco> worth fleshing out?
<nixternal> who is your money on?
<jsgotangco> the brazilians
<jsgotangco> lol
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> ya, them and the aussies are pretty powerful
<jsgotangco> i think its a nice one
<LaserJock> bug karma?
<nixternal> that isn't fair if you do bug karma, i don't have elite members yet ;)
<nixternal> it would be me vs. everyone
<LaserJock> so
<nixternal> i guarantee my guys who are on the launchpad would see karma as a bad thing
<jsgotangco> i think there should be an agreed number of members per team to qualify
<jsgotangco> 10 at least
<nixternal> chicago is out
<nixternal> lol
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> 5?
<nixternal> still out
<nixternal> 1
<nixternal> ?
<jsgotangco> doh
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> what about the LoCo teams of one like me
<jsgotangco> uploaders are not allowed to enter
<nixternal> my team will advocate like you wouldn't believe
<LaserJock> if we put US together maybe
<jsgotangco> but only serve as team coach
<nixternal> but they aren't triagers or packagers just yet
<nixternal> us has a couple of strong teams
<jsgotangco> but dude this would be fun
<nixternal> colorado has a nice showing
<nixternal> it would be a blast
<jsgotangco> like fantasy football except its not fantasy
<LaserJock> dholbach would freak
<nixternal> i think there should be "Ubuntu LoCo Scavenger Hunts"
<nixternal> and your team makes video of the entire venture
<jsgotangco> we'll have divisions
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> the EU league
<nixternal> hehe
<jsgotangco> the NorthAm league
<nixternal> oooh...we got Canada!!!
<nixternal> Burgwork and Madpilot are on that team ;)
<Madpilot> huh?
<nixternal> i need to get in with the Mexico LoCo since I will be moving htere someday
* Madpilot reads some scrollback...
<jsgotangco> heh i will talk to dholbach later
<Madpilot> nixternal, there are good quality logos for all the versions available on wiki.ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> im not sure who handles locoteams at the moment
<nixternal> that is where i got all of those
<nixternal> i did something with them
<nixternal> easy fix though
<nixternal> i have a master logo xcf that has every logo w/ name layered
<Madpilot> nixternal, really? There are good SVG versions, much easier to resize vector art in Inkscape than mess with bitmaps in the GIMP
<nixternal> ya, i should probably do that
<RichJ> http://chi.ubuntu-us.org is getting better and better..almost like a fine wine and age ;)
<Madpilot> odd - I can't get through to either wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com, but they ping fine from terminal...
<RichJ> me either
<RichJ> hopefully they are doing some updates and thats it
<crimsun> apparently they've both been diggdotted.
<crimsun> or whatever.
<RichJ> lol
<crimsun> 01:13 < dieman> nice. digg effect on wiki.ubuntu.com
<RichJ> i have never heard that one b4
<RichJ> wtf happened that caused a digg effect?
<crimsun> no idea.
<Madpilot> with Digg, who knows?
<crimsun> ah, I see
<Madpilot> it's like Slashdot, only dafter, and without the +5 Funny for minor amusement...
<crimsun> it's on the front page of digg.com
<crimsun> "Ubuntu "Edgy" artwork progress: Great eye candy on the way!"
<crimsun> and links directly to wiki.ubuntu.com
<Madpilot> bah
<RichJ> edgy artwork
<RichJ> yup
<robitaille> with all the snapshots of all the different artwork...
<crimsun> man, I'm TOTALLY going to have ponies in all the default artworks
<RichJ> hahaha
<RichJ> i will help it get dugg if you do
<jsgotangco> geeez
<jsgotangco> they're not even planned artwork
<jsgotangco> just people adding their stuff
<crimsun> yeah, so my ponies are totally going up
* mdke mornings
<robitaille> hi mdke 
<Burgundavia> hey mdke, robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> robitaille: how does one actually create an article on the fridge, out of interest?
<robitaille> you login, then click on "contribute" on the left-hand side
<mdke> I don't have a "contribute"
<mdke> maybe that's intentional
<robitaille> you have entered your password?
<mdke> yes
<robitaille> you want to try now
<robitaille> I added you as "editor"
<mdke> yes, that works
<robitaille> then you click on "story" to write your article
<mdke> right, and "event" for adding a meeting?
<robitaille> yes
<mdke> very nice
<mdke> perhaps not adding me as editor was intentional though?
<robitaille> by the way, there was some discussion with the buntudot crowd earlier tonight, and it seems they will be a lot of near-future collaborations
<mdke> great
<mdke> is there a formal team?
<robitaille> I'm not sure what jorge had in mind, but not being able to edit makes your access to the site pretty much useless
<robitaille> fridge team?
<mdke> something like that
<robitaille> I guess whoever is on the mailing list is the team
<mdke> it would probably be a good idea if lots of people are going to start helping out. And some guidelines for how to join, etc
<robitaille> totally agree.  I suspect we'll start sorting all this shortly.  All this is very sudden
<robitaille> you're getting the mailing list emails?
<mdke> actually no, I put it as vacation
<mdke> but I can read the archive
<mdke> my email isn't set up well right now for mailing lists, I am using a newsreader for all the lists
<robitaille> you should read the email from imbrandon from a couple of hours ago
<mdke> ok
<robitaille> it is the log of an informal irc meeting they did earlier today
<mdke> great, I see it
<mdke> lot of spam on that list :/
<robitaille> oh yes.  Because anyone can post to it so that we can received people suggestions for articles
<mdke> right
<robitaille> spamasssin actually filter some of them out
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> how's it going?
<Burgundavia> not bad
* jsgotangco tries to fix up all the project logos to look like an olympic logo
<Madpilot> careful, the IOC is rabidly protective of their logos ;)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you seen that branding wiki page?
<jsgotangco> no but im thinking of something really crazy to stir up the locoteams
<Fujitsu> :O
<jsgotangco> well not crazy but rather bold
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: witness the utter insanity of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnifiedUbuntuBranding
<jsgotangco> OS/g OS/k?
<Burgundavia> I suspect jbaer is a disgruntled kubuntu/xubuntu user
<jsgotangco> crazy
<Burgundavia> he has written lots of nice market speak on that page
* mdke slaps mpt
<mpt> heh, eh, wot
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke> that html trick of yours with the image doesn't work on planet ubuntu
<mpt> The easy method?
<mdke> right
<mpt> so Planet must strip all style= attributes
<mpt> in which case the only solution is to put the <img> in a <p> by itself
<mdke> is there a brute force method?
<mpt> which is semantically incorrect, but will work
<mpt> or you could put it in a <div> by itself, which would be slightly more honest
* mdke will use a <p>
<mdke> thanks
<RichJ> hiya guys
<mdke> mpt: you mean "<p><img>" right? that hasn't worked either
<mpt> mdke, did Planet pick up a new copy of the article?
<mdke> mpt: yes. says this: <p><img alt="the Ubuntu help menu" align="right" src="http://www.ubuntu.com/include/img/helpmenu.png" /></p>
<mpt> mdke, dude, that's because you've got the align="right" in there
<mpt> align="right" is equivalent to style="float: right;", and the float clearing has been stripped out of the next paragraph, so it goes into the runaround
<mdke> argh, wtf is that doing in there
<mdke> sorry mpt 
* mpt concludes that Billie Piper isn't real
<mdke> she is real!
<mpt> gah
* mpt concludes that *that* Billie Piper isn't real
<mpt> The one in the KDE photo
<mdke> she is real!
<mdke> well, no
<jsgotangco> ?
* mdke continues to struggle with these goddam images
<jsgotangco> wow is she hot or what
<bimberi> jsgotangco: http://planet.ubuntu.com/ (post #3)
<jsgotangco> (for an action figure that is)
<mpt> That one looks suspiciously rubbery
<mdke> mpt: you say that like it's a bad thing
<mpt> I plead ignorance
<jsgotangco> has anyone played super mario bros. before?
<jjesse> yeah
<jsgotangco> i bought this game for the DS and they just re-made the game and its AWESOME
<jsgotangco> mario grows like 10 times and trashes everything on screen har har har
<jjesse> cool
<jsgotangco> im not going to think of anything ubuntu for now and just be a kid again
* ompaul has a piece of information that may be useful in making more user friendly docs - having just had a horrible let of docs beat him up 
<ompaul> s/let/set
<jjesse> share w/ all
<ompaul> when vpn issues and the likes are being spoken about the keys and the x509 cert details should be written up large before the actual configuration of the vpn - it might seem obvious but they tend to be buried well away from actual configurations
<ompaul> if that is not enough data then I will stick something on the mailing list later
<ompaul> just say so
<ompaul> this is because the certs / keys  info is needed to do the config - so rather than branching or doing it later it should be done first with a little explaination and a branch to help choose cert / key that is all - two ugly routers and an ip sec lan 
<nixternal> anyone else here on the Fridge mailing list?  how come all the spam?
<mdke> nixternal: all mailing lists get spam, it's just that the fridge mailing list doesn't have moderation so that people can post ideas without being subscribed
<nixternal> arg, that is horrible
<mdke> tha's life
<nixternal> it always is ;)
<nixternal> im listening to this "switchers" podcast..pretty entertaining
<nixternal> he pronounce SuSe sooose, and now Soo-Sah
<mdke> suzy
<nixternal> i always called it suzy as well, but I heard the CEO at the time (2000) at Comdex during a keynote, say Soo-Sah, and it was in his presentation...maybe it is the way the Germans say it
<Kamping_Kaiser> if they do, i'm supprised
<Kamping_Kaiser> i say soos (in my pronunciation... hope your is similar ;))
<nixternal> i had an old SuSe Linux box and seen the /Soo-Sah/ pronunciation on it, then again I am talking back in the 90's
<nixternal> The company has been known to pronounce it as "zu-zuh".
<nixternal> that is it, not soo-sah...i was close ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<nixternal> it is us english speakers to changed it to sound like "suzie" a girls name, "soose" which means sweet in german...we are crazy like that
<nixternal> the same goes for Ubuntu though
<nixternal> i have heard it pronounced "Uh-Bunt-ooo", "ooo-boon-too" and such
<Kamping_Kaiser> or You-Bun-too
<Kamping_Kaiser>  "ooo-boon-too" is actiualy correct
<nixternal> oh ya, forgot about that one as well
<Burgwork> there are too many matthews involved in the ubuntu documentation
<nixternal> lol
<Burgwork> mdke, mpt one of you has to change your name
<nixternal> they are taking over the ubuntu world
<jjesse> i thought it was a rule that you had to change your name to matthew to work in documentation
<Burgwork> I hope not
<Burgwork> jjesse, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=jonathan+jesse&spell=1 <-- prentice has some serious google juice
<Burgwork> wow, being an author really changed how google looks at me
<Burgwork> http://www.usu.edu/research/programs/staffdetail.cfm?ID=6 <-- although I feel sorry for this bastard (which is not me)
<jjesse> yeah i noticed that the other day
<jjesse> launchpad is the third link 
<jjesse> so that's nice
<neoxan> hi Seveas 
<neoxan> Seveas, /join #gaygeeks :)
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o Burgwork]  by ChanServ
* neoxan was kicked off #ubuntu-doc by Burgwork (Burgwork)
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o Burgwork]  by Burgwork
<nixternal> wth
<nixternal> that took me a second to comprehend
<Burgwork> somebody is stalking poor Seveas 
<jjesse> on #ubuntu-devel as well
<neoxan> hi Seveas 
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o mdke_]  by ChanServ
<mdke> Burgwork: heh, I use epiphany too, and the bug still annoys me, just knowing it is there, and that firefox is the default browser
<neoxan> epiphany is cool
<neoxan> i think it runs smoother then firefox
<neoxan> :)
<Burgwork> neoxan, I suggest you stop following Seveas around. He is finding it annoying
<neoxan> Burgwork, im not following him around, im just wondering why he calls me an asshole and a loser
<Burgwork> neoxan, I see you trying to reach him on three different channels now. Channels you join and then ask him
<neoxan> yes
<neoxan> because in query i get awnsers like 
<Burgwork> as for whether or not he said anything to you, that is totally immaterial to what you are doing
<neoxan> <Seveas> well, this is what you get for being such a pathetic loser
<neoxan> <Seveas> i kick you because you're a pathetic abusive loser
<mdke> right. stop this in here
<Seveas> neoxan, and I stand by that classification, also because you keep stalking
<neoxan> and i can go where i want to go
<mdke> you can talk about documentation, otherwise take it in private
* mdke hands over to Burgwork and leaves for the evening
<Burgwork> mdke, cya
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o mdke]  by ChanServ
* osg giggles at the word defenestrate.
<manicka> mdke_, has KB contacted you re your proposal
<manicka> ?
<manicka> he is busy forming a team to make it happen
<Burgwork> manicka, make what happen?
<manicka> a team to port selected udsf docs to the help wiki
<Burgwork> ah, very cool
<manicka> yes
<Burgwork> would be nice just to do a clean break, but meh
<manicka> maybe down the track
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-27
<manicka> it's a nice start to better integration down the road
<Madpilot> Burgwork, is random punning in Planet Ubuntu posts allowed, or am I going to have to hit you next time I see you?
<Burgwork> well, mdke_ did offer it up
* LaserJock goes to look
<nixternal_> cover your eyes
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hahahahahaha
<LaserJock> I think that's the funniest thing I've seen today
<Burgwork> I try
<Madpilot> I see that crackish "UnifiedUbuntuBranding" page is still being worked on... still don't see the point...
<nixternal> ya I had an epiphony once, but Konqi destroyed it!
<mpt> Madpilot, wow. Just, wow.
<Madpilot> mpt, what, the branding thing?
<Madpilot> or Burgwork's awful puns?
<mpt> The branding thing
<Madpilot> OS/g and OS/k... OS/WTF?
<mpt> He seems to be under the delusion that "Gnome" is a non-ridiculous brand name
<Madpilot> nevermind that Canonical would have a polite letter from Apple's lawyers...
<mpt> What, for OS/whatever?
<mpt> Why?
<mpt> You mean IBM's?
<Madpilot> probably both :)
<mpt> After Apple released Mac OS 8.6, they released Mac OS 9, and got a letter from some company's lawyers about some other OS called "OS 9"
<mpt> Anyway, the underlying logical flaw in that whole page is the clause "Ubuntu lacks a published marketing plan".
<mpt> Which I guess is an understandable mistake
<mpt> so I shouldn't be too harsh :-)
<bimberi> mpt: i don't understand, are you saying there _is_ a "published marketing plan"?
<mpt> bimberi, no, it's a logical flaw, not a factual one. Volunteer marketing (though it is often more effective than professional marketing) usually doesn't require a plan, and the kind of marketing that companies do usually involves a plan that isn't published.
<bimberi> mpt: ok, undersood.  So any thoughts on whether ubuntu's volunteer marketing requires a plan?
<bimberi> *understood
<mpt> bimberi, not really, my brain is quite full enough at the moment without thinking about marketing :-)
<bimberi> mpt: chicken! ;-)
<mpt> (Though I will volunteer the suggestion that the marketing team should spend less time debating a design for SpreadUbuntu, and more time on actual marketing)
<Madpilot> heh
<mpt> uh oh
<mpt> Can someone on Dapper, and someone on Edgy, please try opening Yelp and choosing "Help" > "Get Help Online...", and telling me whether you get a 404?
<bimberi> mpt: (Dapper) no 404, opens https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+sources/yelp/+gethelp
<mpt> weird
<mpt> I'm on Dapper and I get https://launchpad.net/distros///+sources/yelp/+gethelp
<mpt> reported bug 54212
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54212 in launchpad-integration ""Get Help Online" in Yelp goes to non-existent page" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54212
<jsgotangco> mpt: looks fixed already
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> hhe
<jsgotangco> crap ignore me
* LaserJock ignores jsgotangco 
<Madpilot> odd... X just froze on me, or somethign did, anyway
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: not here either
<mdke_> morning
<robitaille> hi mdke_ 
<mdke_> manicka: hi. Yes, he got back to me and we discussed a few things
<mdke_> but as for forming a team, we agreed to wait until I'd put some thoughts down
<manicka> ah ok. Still lots more to work out
<manicka> I'd like the doc-team to head up that team but that may be a sticking point
<mdke_> I don't think it is a sticking point. I'd like the team to be a subteam of the UDSF team and of the wiki team
<mdke_> so some people have already been interested in it?
<manicka> from what KB tells me, yes
<mdke_> ah good, you had a discussion with him?
<manicka> he thinks Andrew Zajac and Travis Newman will be interested from the forums
<manicka> we had a lengthy chat yes
<manicka> our current falling out makes communication difficult though
<mdke_> ah
<manicka> he also mentioned some other forum members as being interested
<manicka> the only sticking point for me would be working as a subset of udsf... wiki team, no problems
<manicka> but I'll just have to work with that I guess
<manicka> if it comes to bear
<mdke_> the whole point would be as a bridge between the two initiatives
<manicka> yes, i know
<manicka> but as i have no interest in the udsf at this point it will be a challenging role for me
<manicka> but workable
<jsgotangco> \0/ GO MANICKA \0/
<mdke_> I'm sure it will be fine
<manicka> as long as i can see a long term goal of integration with the wiki I can work with it
<Madpilot> we talking about combining the UDSF's wiki & the official one?
<mdke_> Madpilot: no.
<manicka> no
<mdke_> the idea is simply to set up a team which can integrate some material from the forum/UDSF onto the help wiki
<Madpilot> ah, OK
<manicka> I'm more interested in what happens after that task is completed, but that can wait for another day
<mdke> it's not really a task that gets completed, I wouldn't have thought. material is always being added to the forum, and the help wiki always needs improvement :)
<manicka> yes, agreed
<mdke> I'd like to move forward with some ideas about improving the help wiki too.
<manicka> i guess i meant after the bulk of the porting is done of existing material. the teams focus would then be on keeping the movement of info from the forums to the wiki
<manicka> and improving the wiki :)
<manicka> I really like the work that has been done in the last 6 months
<mdke> right.
<mdke> if you have any ideas about how the wiki looks right now and how to improve it, mail them to the list
* mdke needs to go and work and such now
<manicka> will do
<manicka> ok
<mhz> hy all
<mhz> I had to stop by beacuse I am kind of clueless about this:
<mhz> Why Edubuntu Handbook is not using an official repo?
<mhz> I know Susan mentioned during last EHB meeting that everytime there was a meeting, domeone from DocTeam would give diff version opinions "Yes, you should use official repo" /  "No, you should not use official repo"
<mhz> The reason I am asking here instead of emailng Susan is that next EHB meeting starts in 5 minutes
<mhz> so I doubt she'll have time to answer me
<pygi> mdke_, poke
<mdke_> mhz: we're told that the idea is for the handbook to use the docteam repo
<mdke_> pygi: pink
<pygi> we WILL USE docteam repo :P
<pygi> I hoped I made it clear in 10000001 time (the number of time I was explaining that :P)
<mdke_> mhz: ^^
<pygi> mdke_, why not being in meeting? :P
<mdke_> pygi: I'm at work
<mhz> okis
<pygi> oh,oki, sorry then :)
<Burgwork> mdke_, you know how sabdfl raised the idea of a doc team sprint last cycle? shall we do that this cycle, for the book integration?
<mdke_> Burgwork: might be a nice idea. Not specifically for book integration I think, but there must be plenty of things. Wiki integration, help system organisation, etc
<mdke_> gtg home now
<Burgwork> mdke_, absolutely, but the book is a big item
<LaserJock> have we decided what we want to do with the book?
<LaserJock> just merge stuff together?
<LaserJock> do we need more than the excerpts?
<Burgwork> I would just merge
<mdke_> Burgwork: I wonder actually how much merging is going to be appropriate. After all, we know that it's written with a totally different style, and much of the material is there already. We should definitely take a look though
<mvirkkil> Does Andreas Lloyd hang out here?
<mdke_> mvirkkil: yeah he does sometimes.
<mvirkkil> mdke_: What's his nick?
<mdke_> lloydino or something similar, best to check launchpad
<mdke_> ah
<mdke_> lloydinho
<mdke_> mvirkkil: how's it going? got some book2moin going at all?
<Burgwork> mdke_, yep, but there are a lot of holes we could patch with it
<mvirkkil> mdke_: I've fixed the bug you found, but I haven't made any real progress for a while. I'm going to be doing something of a "sprint" next week starting somewhere around tuesday or wednesday.
<jjesse> did the wiki get a big update or something?
<jjesse> using the kubuntu theme it looks like half the pages didn't load
<mvirkkil> mdke_: And continuing until sunday.
<mdke_> mvirkkil: yay!
<mdke_> jjesse: not that I heard about
<mdke_> mvirkkil: if you want someone to test anything something in the middle of your sprint, lemme know :)
<mdke_> mvirkkil: especially if you have some book action
<mvirkkil> mdke_: As it turns out I've been one of the programmer for organizing http://www.assembly.org/2006/ 
<mvirkkil> mdke_: The xref stuff is _extremely_ complicated to get right.
<mdke_> yeah
<mdke_> i can imagine
<mvirkkil> mdke_: I think I have an idea for solving it. I'm hoping that the project would be feature complete by sunday next week (1.5 weeks from now).
<mvirkkil> mdke_: So that I could simply be fixing bugs and adding documentation.
<mvirkkil> mdke_: and unit tests.
<mdke_> mvirkkil: good luck, and if I can help, let me know
<mvirkkil> mdke_: Thanks :) I'll probably be actively pestering people to try stuff out next week :)
<mvirkkil> mdke_: I have a week off from my real job, so I'll hopefully have more energy to concentrate on this.
<Burgwork> lloydinho, mvirkkil was looking for you
<jjesse> wow the wiki is running sloooooooooowwwwwww for me
<lloydinho> yeah, I've given up on it completely for tonight...
<lloydinho> hey LaserJock, you here?
<LaserJock> yeah
<lloydinho> I've been gathering the various "Contribute" stuff off the wiki, and hope to a draft of the Contribute article tomorrow..
<lloydinho> Is there anything special I should take into consideration about this?
<lloydinho> *to do a draft*
<LaserJock> I'm guessing not
<lloydinho> okay. Well, my plan was this:
<lloydinho> I do a rough first draft.
<lloydinho> You have a look at it and add/change some stuff.
<lloydinho> Then we go over it together in Gobby and iron out the creases.
<LaserJock> sure
<lloydinho> Goody!
<LaserJock> I'm thinking we want to keep it simple with an overview of what contributing means and areas that people can contribute too
<lloydinho> yeah, are you familiar with the HelpingUbuntu wiki page?
<LaserJock> little bit, let me pull it up
<Burgwork> lloydinho, are you looking at merging the /community/contribute page with the HelpingUbuntu page?
<Burgwork> lloydinho_, are you looking at merging the /community/contribute page with the HelpingUbuntu page?
<Burgwork> (figured you might have missed it)
<LaserJock> we are looking at creating a "Contributing to Ubuntu" article to go in yelp
<LaserJock> and khelpcenter if we can get it to work
<Burgwork> ah
<LaserJock> as a top level doc that would have the Packaging Guide in it
<lloydinho__> that is so strange.
<Burgwork> can you look at the website as well?
<lloydinho__> I don't know why Xchat keeps on crashing on me..
<Burgwork> it only make sense that all three are the same
<LaserJock> yeah, I've seen the website and the wiki
<Burgwork> ultimately, I want the wiki page to die
<Burgwork> redirect to the community/participate page
<LaserJock> yeah, there really isn't a reason to have it on the wiki
<lloydinho__> LaserJock: I'm sorry I zoned out for a bit there - did I miss anything?
<LaserJock> just Burgwork ;-)
<lloydinho__> oh, hi Burgwork! :-)
<Burgwork> Burgwork ultimately, I want the wiki page to die
<Burgwork> Burgwork redirect to the community/participate page
<lloydinho> so we want all the contribute stuff centralized, yes?
<lloydinho> sounds good
<Burgwork> yes
<LaserJock> yes, we seem to send mixed messages too often
<LaserJock> people fine more than one source for the same information, and there aren't always the same
<LaserJock> in fact, they are usually don't have the same content
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> the webpage is slowly getting the love it needs
<lloydinho> I've been reading all the different teams' Contribute/Get Involved sections, and they all have different ways of approaching the new contributors...
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it would be nice if each team had a page (that was consistent)
<lloydinho> For instance, the Artwork team has an open Launchpad team, and asks people to register there and for the mailing list as the first thing.
<LaserJock> where they could put info
<Burgwork> there should be a secondary landing page for each team
<Burgwork> that page should be on the wiki
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> you sort of need to have one page that gives the reader enough info to decide if they want to pursue further
<Burgwork> that is actually the harder part of the job
<Burgwork> as you need to interface with each team and get them to create taht page
<Burgwork> that is what HelpingUbuntu is supposed to be about
<lloydinho> Yes. Can we do a standard template for team pages that will make it easy for visitors to read and compare teams?
<Burgwork> sure
<LaserJock> Burgwork: or should we get info from teams and make the pages ourselves?
<lloydinho> (and will the teams be willing to use it?)
<Burgwork> either
<Burgwork> I don't think teams would mind, as long as we give lots of warning and get good feedback
<lloydinho> well, I suppose if we make a template, we will need to fit the various team data into that, but it might be better to let the teams do that themselves..
<lloydinho> It might be an opportunity for them to reflect on how they welcome new contributors.
<lloydinho> And I'm still curious about how Launchpad will figure in all of this, since there are also LP team pages to consider..
<Burgwork> let create the template, move one team over (say, the doc team) and invite people to give comments
<Burgwork> the LP pages should simply have a link to the wiki
<lloydinho> Right, and a one-paragraph presentation of the team (preferably the same paragraph that is the first part of the wiki page)
* pygi says hello
<lloydinho> I think that would be a good solution.
<Burgwork> hey pygi 
<lloydinho> Hi pygi
<Burgwork> intro, contact, current projects
<pygi> hey both :)
<pygi> how are you Burgwork ?
<LaserJock> yeah, lloydinho have you looked at the MOTU
<Burgwork> not bad, busy
<LaserJock> we have been doing a lot lately with working with contibutors
<lloydinho_> gah!
<lloydinho_> Burgwork: So, once the wiki stops being so dreadfully slow, we can try making that template.
<Burgwork> sounds good
<lloydinho_> Should there be a section on what one should do to qualify as a member of the team? In general or in Launchpad?
<LaserJock> at some point there needs to be something
<LaserJock> but usually you don't need to be a member of the team to contribute
<LaserJock> so they shouldn't have to worry too much about that initially
<lloydinho_> No, I guess not.
<LaserJock> but yeah, figuring out what it takes is probably pretty important at some point
<lloydinho_> But when I first started out, I looked at the various teams in launchpad, and didn't know whether I had to be a member or not to contribute - so it'll probably need to be addressed somewhere
<LaserJock> yes, that should be in the very beginning
<lloydinho_> that would mean in the team wiki page.
<LaserJock> I don't know of any teams where you have to be a member to contribute
<LaserJock> I think it should be discussed before, I think this is a general Ubuntu thing
<lloydinho_> And since teams have different policies on this (again with the art team as an example) we can't say that there is just one way to do this
<LaserJock> well, member != contributor
<LaserJock> that's a distinction we need to make clear, I think
<lloydinho_> I know. And that is important. Especially how we phrase this to the new budding contributors
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> because if you looked at MOTU or the doc team you would get kinda depressed because there aren't that many
<LaserJock> so it must be *really* hard to get on the teams in order to contribute
<lloydinho_> Because LP seems to formalize something that usually is a kind of vague social tie in a very "are you in my Friends network or not" kind of way.
<LaserJock> I've heard that kind of thing before
<lloydinho_> The MOTU team is special, since those members are approved by the technical board.
<LaserJock> yes
<lloydinho_> Really, the MOTU LP page should be saying that loud and clear instead of merely referring to the MOTU recruitment page.
<LaserJock> yes
<lloydinho_> https://launchpad.net/people/motu
<LaserJock> well, the thing is for us, is that nobody should be coming to MOTU through LP
<crimsun> ok, let's clear up some stuff.
<LaserJock> and perhaps that is perhaps a bad assumption
<LaserJock> ack, that's another thing
<crimsun> #1. https://launchpad.net/people/motu is not the MOTU group. It needs to state that explicitly. It was a bug triaging group that is now obsolete.
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> we should ask for that to be removed
<lloydinho_> huh? I search for MOTU in launchpad and that is what I get?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> the real MOTU team is ubuntu-dev
<LaserJock> on LP
<lloydinho_> ah, of course.
<LaserJock> as opposed to ubuntu-core-dev for the Main guys
<crimsun> #2. State unequivocally that people need not be part of any LP team to contribute. Instead, introduce the various LP teams as "bug triaging" groups. In other words, ubuntu-doc will address bugs for the documentation.
<lloydinho_> Well, that's another misunderstanding waiting to happen (again)
<LaserJock> crimsun: I don't think most teams view it as "bug triaging"
<LaserJock> perhaps that is something that should change
<crimsun> LaserJock: no, but we /should/
<crimsun> it's the easiest way to address LP teams, really
<LaserJock> it is an artifact of LP I think
<LaserJock> since it isn't just Malone
<LaserJock> translation teams, for instance, are basically concerned with Rosetta
<LaserJock> we have upstream product teams
<LaserJock> we have all kinds of teams
<LaserJock> it's a zoo
<crimsun> for instance, I'm not a ubuntu-doc member, but I've contributed to documentation [bugs] 
<crimsun> I'm a ubuntu-dev member, and I contribute to universe & multiverse [bugs] 
<LaserJock> hehe
<crimsun> I'm a ubuntu-core-dev member, and I contribute to main, universe & multiverse [bugs] 
<LaserJock> you do contribute to universe bugs for sure ;-)
<LaserJock> well, but isn't that very Malone-centric
<crimsun> I'm not a kernel-team member, but I contribute to linux-source [bugs] 
<lloydinho_> But you do packaging as well, I suppose - also through your ubuntu-dev membership, right?
<crimsun> lloydinho_: tasks, I think, are only a very small portion of how to view LP teams
<LaserJock> lloydinho_: what he is saying, I think, is that we can think of everything in terms of bugs (or tasks)
<crimsun> the point here is that LP teams signify a certain ownership of bug triaging participation
<LaserJock> I just don't know that I can agree with that though
<LaserJock> because Malone is only a part of LP
<LaserJock> and bugs live in Malone
<LaserJock> you can have many teams that never touch Malone
<crimsun> sure, then substitute the appropriate action
<crimsun> Malone teams on LP -> bug triaging
<crimsun> Rosetta teams -> trans
<crimsun> etc.
<LaserJock> I think of most of the teams as being "social collections" with a few important ones actually being "access teams"
<crimsun> I prefer to omit the idea of 'access/privilege' completely when introducing an LP novice
<LaserJock> there are a lot of artwork and documentation teams that don't use LP for anything but organizing the team
<lloydinho> (Okay, I'll be trying GAIM instead now.. this is really strange..)
<lloydinho> Marketing does specs for the different projects that they've got going.
<crimsun> I think of stuff as in "wanna help? here are people [on such and such team]  that can assist."
<LaserJock> I prefer not to introduce the novice to LP
<LaserJock> I think that is the job of the wiki, mailing lists, and IRC
<LaserJock> LP doesn't give enough information
<lloydinho> well, we need to address Launchpad somewhere. 
<crimsun> LP is not sufficient, but it's necessary.
<lloydinho> "it's this really huge complex beast that you don't need to worry much about, but one day you will learn its secrets..."
<LaserJock> I think that the teams should do that, in their specific way. I don't think general contributing docs need to address LP other than to say it exists and what it is used for
<lloydinho> "... and then you too will be a master."
<crimsun> then what /is/ LP used for?
<LaserJock> stuff
<LaserJock> ;-)
<crimsun> I couldn't even attempt to summarise it
<LaserJock> I would do it probably in terms of the different sections
<LaserJock> like "Rosseta is used for translating documents and programs into various languages"
<lloydinho> Trying to explain all of Launchpad to any new F/OSS contributor is almost impossible, I think.
<crimsun> "...where each Rosetta team is..."
<LaserJock> the problem is that the teams can really mean various things
<LaserJock> the teams aren't really tied to any specific section of LP
<lloydinho> you can explain each of the elements (maybe. at least Rosetta, Blueprint and Malone), but not all of them together.
<lloydinho> And definitely not how the different teams use them.
<LaserJock> there isn't anything that says "this is a Malone team" other than if you but -bugs in the name or something
<LaserJock> s/but/put/
<crimsun> that's why it's critical to explain what each component's teams do. It doesn't have to be done up front, but it does have to be done.
<LaserJock> you can literally make any team for *any* purpose
<LaserJock> but how do you explain something that doesn't exist?
<LaserJock> I guess we can kinda do it ourselves
<lloydinho> yes. And as long as there is no way to differentiate between the teams, it will be even more difficult.
<crimsun> I think you mean to ask "How do you enumerate something that's countably infinite?"
<lloydinho> hah
<lloydinho> It would certainly help if a new user didn't have to deal with *all of launchpad* when they begin.
<crimsun> they really don't. They just register if they want.
<lloydinho> they'll still start out at the front page of launchpad, 
<crimsun> There are plenty of contributors who refuse to register on LP, actually.
<LaserJock> I think it might be a bit misleading to give LP teams structure that doesn't really exist. I think it is better the get the person plugged into the team itself, not it's LP manifestation
<LaserJock> then the team can explain what LP is used for in their team
<crimsun> LaserJock: but then you have to explain what a team is, which brings you back to square one.
<LaserJock> let the teams explain it
<crimsun> so you're going to say "Join an LP team, and ask team X what its purpose is"?
<LaserJock> I just don't see how we can make an all-inclusive statement about what LP teams are
<lloydinho> well, that will return us to the question of the different teams offering different and potentially misleading information about teams in general are.
<LaserJock> no, I say ditch "Join an LP team". It isn't needed
<LaserJock> I think explaining what the various LP components are used for is much more helpful
<crimsun> well, /if/ you choose to cover 'LP teams' at all, you could of course just say that a team is a collection of e-mail addresses.
<lloydinho> a collection of launchpad users?
<LaserJock> something like that,  we could go into more I suppose, but since really LP team really don't have anything to do with getting a person to contribute
<LaserJock> I don't think we need to worry a ton about it
<crimsun> eventually it will need to be addressed
<crimsun> what else is being considered for the 'portal'?
<LaserJock> yes, but I think that might be better left to the teams themselves
<lloydinho> Hm. Yes. people will ask about it. But I suppose we can let that be addressed by the teams..
<crimsun> the first question I have as a new user is "why have a team at all?"
<crimsun> anyhow, that's enough about LP
<crimsun> what other vectors are there for new Ubuntu contributors?
<lloydinho> (It's strange because most of the social structures fell in place before LP opened, and now a parallel structure is appearing in LP. Messy..!)
<lloydinho> vectors? As in where will people look and what will they need to know in order to contribute?
<crimsun> sure
<crimsun> the question is perhaps better phrased as "How can I contribute?"
<ompaul> whats with the speed of the wiki?
<lloydinho> well, that was basically the name of the doc that LaserJock and I are going to write..
<crimsun> lloydinho: right, but how else can I contribute?
<nixternal> whats a good professional looking font for a business card?
<crimsun> meaning "suppose I'm a new user, and I'd like to know where to jump in"
<ompaul> nixternal, that actually depends on the quantity of text and the design on the card, generally a serif is a nice professional touch 
<nixternal> the Ubuntu Business Card..i have an event tonight, I would like to give a couple out with CDs so people can contact me for support and direction
<ompaul> crimsun, then I would have to ask you a two part question, what can you do, and what would you like to do?
<crimsun> lloydinho: do you feel that's answerable by the new docs you're constructing?
<ompaul> nixternal, use something from the "examples" with 6.06
<nixternal> hmm, let me look in there
<lloydinho> crimsun: That was the plan, yes.
<lloydinho> We want a one-stop reference that we can add to the System docs that ship with Ubuntu.
<lloydinho> That will give enough stable information to get people involved with what they feel capable of contributing to.
<crimsun> ok, I'm obviously not making myself clear. I'm asking what have you covered, and where are you looking now?
<lloydinho> Um. We have only just started. I'll be writing the first draft tomorrow.
<lloydinho> What I have done so far is taking all of the various scraps of "Get Involved" and "Helping Out" pages on the Website and the wiki, and I want to use that as a base to make a solid document.
<crimsun> Ok, and that covers which major vectors into Ubuntu?
<crimsun> (art? translation? packaging? bug triaging? etc.)
<lloydinho> advocacy, Doc team, wiki team, artwork, marketing, general testing, laptop testing, server testing, the bugsquad, desktop team, serverteam, the MOTUs...
<nixternal> don't forget about Ubuntu Chicago ;)
<lloydinho> though, advocacy and marketing might be the same thing, I don't know.
<lloydinho> heh. Yes. I need something on LoCo teams as well. 
<lloydinho> ;-)
<lloydinho> ... and the various community support as well, of course.
<crimsun> lloydinho: ok, looking forward to it
<lloydinho> thanks, crimsun - it sounds like you'll have a lot of good input on this, when it gets closer to completion. So, do not hesitate to add your comments when we get a draft out on the wiki...
<LaserJock> hehe, I sense a bit of "I'll believe it when I see it" in there crimsun ;-)
<crimsun> no
<lloydinho> heh, well given the current state of the "Contribute" docs, I wouldn't blame you.. :-)
<LaserJock> well, I wonder how we can pull it off
<crimsun> I'm trying to envision as many nodes as possible that can be collapsed
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I think it's a worth-while effort though
<LaserJock> that can evolve as we go
<crimsun> it's definitely worthwhile, and it will have to evolve since Ubuntu evolves
<lloydinho> Yes, I've been thinking about that. At moment, the most common distinction of ways to contribute seems to be between "technical" and "non-technical" which is slightly mis-leading.
<LaserJock> yeah, I'd rather focus on what people are naturally interested in
<LaserJock> but it's hard because you ask somebody, "What areas do you interested in?" and you get "I don't know, I just wanna help"
<lloydinho> exactly.
<LaserJock> but I  think that's perhaps more of a lack-of-information problem than anything
<lloydinho> People don't really build a set idea of what they want to do before they say they want to contribute.
<lloydinho> The important thing would be to have a list of projects for every team that people can look at and go "Hey, I can help with that!"
<LaserJock> yeah
<lloydinho> You'd need to know the community a lot better to be able to start up a whole new project on your own.
<lloydinho> Because you might end up spending a lot of effort on something that nobody else agrees with.
* lloydinho hints at current discussion about Ubuntu branding on the marketing mailing-list...
<Burgwork> indeed
<lloydinho> anyway, it's time for bed. See ya next week.
<skora> Is there a ubuntu irc channel for PPC ? 
<pygi> skora, not really, just use #ubuntu I would say
<Burgwork> skora, not really. If you need help, try #ubuntu
<skora> k
<pygi> Burgwork, !!!
<pygi> :)
<Burgwork> pygi, fools seldom differ ;)
<pygi> Burgwork, hehe :)
<nixternal> the wiki picks the best times to not work doesn't it
<nixternal> arg, and help.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> most of the time it works
<Burgwork> http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/27/london.blackout/index.html
<Burgwork> that might explain it
<nixternal> ya, but an hour b4 i have to give a presentation ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-28
<Burgwork> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> good morning Burgwork
<crimsun> nice, thanks, Burgwork 
<Burgwork> crimsun, uhh, what did I get myself into
<crimsun> you'll see :)
<Burgwork> I already moderate ubuntu-users, so it can't be that bad
<crimsun> I have no idea what you're getting into :)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what are you doing?
<Burgwork> running ubuntu-news
<Burgwork> the mailing list
<LaserJock> wahoo
<LaserJock> is that related to fridge?
<Burgwork> somewhat
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: i think you have the natural abilities for that
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, do grunt work for mailing lists?  thanks ... ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> do you have write access to the fridge? i think you should
<Burgwork> not yet
<jsgotangco> im pretty much involved in my loco at the moment thats why i havent been doing much ubuntu work
<jsgotangco> hopefully should change in a month or so
<oskude> hi, im reading this https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-scratch.html and im doing the control file, but at "section" i dont know what to add. is there a list of possible sections somewhere ?
<Burgundavia> oskude: Laser_away is the author of the packaging guide
<crimsun> oskude: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections
<oskude> crimsun: thanks, and those apply to ubuntu too ? (would be nice to have that link in the guide)
<crimsun> yes, those apply, and it is linked in the appendix
<crimsun> (the Debian Policy Manual)
<oskude> well, i wasnt so far yet...
<crimsun> that's ok
<crimsun> the PG is being rewritten
<oskude> roger
<oskude> i "need" a video section :)
<jsgotangco> hey kids
<jjesse> hiya dad :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<Casanova> hi bhuvan 
<Casanova> you pinged me?
<tuxmaniac> oops.. so many t-shirt requests
<tuxmaniac> :)
<Casanova> lol
<Casanova> tuxmaniac: barkha is spreading lies :)
<Casanova> bhuvan: btw.. your t-shirt was a hit in my college :)
* tuxmaniac is wearing the ubuntu t-shirt to office on monday for sure!
<bhuvan> oh ok!
<jsgotangco> good night
<Kamping_Kaiser> i find this search worrying -> http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=adobe+flash+site%3Ahelp.ubuntu.com&btnG=Search&meta=
<Kamping_Kaiser> 'adobe flash' (no quotes) on site:help.ubuntu.com - returns 2 hits, one is for 5.10, none for 6.06 :/
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: "worrying"?
<mdke> I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. If you're saying that there is a spelling error and it should be "Adobe Flash" instead of "Macromedia Flash", then file a bug
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, no, i'm saying i got asked for help on installing flash, so i went and searched 'adobe flash', and came up with no responces, (searching 'flash' got me there). whats 'worrying' is the only link on the subject looks like its from 12 months ago
<mdke> yes, I understood that the first time round
<mdke> but there are more important things in life to worry about than that
<mdke> the 6.06 docs say "Macromedia Flash", feel free to file a bug if that is wrong
* Kamping_Kaiser debates, but probably wont, its easy to find out by droppping 'adobe' after all
<jjesse> is there a reason that we couldn't include images in the release notes?
<Burgwork> jjesse, we are using plain text emails
<jjesse> hmmm  ok 
<LaserJock> no HTML emails? :-)
<Burgwork> only if you're mark
<LaserJock> he does HTML emails?
<jjesse> i just thought it would be cool to have images in them
<Burgwork> rather have a webpage and point it to that
<LaserJock> hmm, maybe I should try some usability tests with on my wife
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you going to Ubucon?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, increasingly thinking about it
<Burgwork> trying to convince my company to pay for the airfare to LWE
<LaserJock> did you get the emails today
<LaserJock> I'm a little weirded out by nothing being done for a long time and then like 3 weeks ahead of time saying "ok, lets get a schedule together"
<Burgwork> to a mailing list?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I got 2 emails today
<Burgwork> which one (I am on just a few)
<LaserJock> theubucon AT linuxpip.org
<Burgwork> oh, not on that one
<LaserJock> they seemed mostly interested in solving common user problems or something
<jjesse> is ubucon the one hosted at google?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> whiprush and the arslinux team will be there
<Burgwork> there are a fair number of people coming, just not yet signed up
<jjesse> i saw the "schedule" today 
<lloydinho_> hi there, are you going to the Ubucon?
<LaserJock> there is one?
<LaserJock> well, I sent an email ages ago saying that I was interested
<lloydinho_> yeah, me too. 
<lloydinho_> Never got an answer.
<Burgwork> there will be one, just probably not with a defined schedule
<lloydinho_> If there are people working on this, they're doing a good job of not letting us know about it.
<Burgwork> lol
<LaserJock> well, apparently the guy who organized it switched jobs, etc.
<lloydinho_> oh, well. I suppose whiprush might know more.
<LaserJock> well, I was trying to plan an anniversary trip around it ;-)
<lloydinho_> Heh :-)
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if that's going to work
<Burgwork> whiprush does
<Burgwork> if you plan an anniversary trip around it, it will make certain you never have to plan another such trip again ;)
<LaserJock> where is whiprush located?
<Burgwork> michigan
<LaserJock> hmm, that's a ways away from Mountain View
<Burgwork> he is flying in
<Burgwork> gahhhh!!! people keep filling my inbox with useless crap, like KDE uploads
<LaserJock> tsk tsk
<lloydinho_> Wow! Update! I just got a mail from John Mark, who is planning the Ubucon.
<lloydinho_> He says it's definitely on.
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> an email just to you?
<LaserJock> or the one to the Ubucon list?
<lloydinho_> just to me, for some reason. It basically says: Join the mailing-list.
<lloydinho_> So there.
<lloydinho_> Anyways, gotta go. 
<crimsun> this ubucon announcement strikes me as very odd.
<LaserJock> me too
<Burgwork> ok, the wiki is deadly slow for me
<XiXaQ> hey people. Look at the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheTomcat5?highlight=%28Tomcat%29#head-7066a9a2f0837ca9f22536fd8503e9703a59f051
<XiXaQ> Java virtual machine Follow this link paying attention to download the JDK and not the SDK.
<XiXaQ> that's supposed to be ..to download the JDK and not the JRE?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-29
<Madpilot> Nice ALL-CAPS quasi-spam on docteam ML...
<highvoltage> anyone here involved with the ubuntu newsletter?
<crimsun> meaning UWN?
<highvoltage> yes, UWN :)
<highvoltage> crimsun: do you ever sleep!?
<Burgundavia> nixternal_bday has been doing the recent stuff
<crimsun> only tangentially. nixternal_bday's doing it.
<Madpilot> ompaul, to answer your question about forwarding to wiki.u.c from the new one, you can set that up, same way the forward the other way works - #REFRESH 0 http://url.of.new.page
<ompaul> Madpilot, sorry not the impression I wanted to give
* ompaul does not bother reading his mail again
<ompaul> Madpilot, what I am saying is there are three tabs 2x version number and 1x community I think 1xwww.ubuntu.com should be there
<Madpilot> ah, OK
* ompaul now goes to read what he actually wrote
<Madpilot> yeah, the actual website is more mdke's department
<ompaul> okay well it is there for him now as a request
<ompaul> we shall see
<Burgundavia> ompaul: what is the issue with the website?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: forget not that other people have edit rights on the website (namely me)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, I had forgottent that, actually
<ompaul> Burgundavia, it is like you have reached the help.ubuntu.com there is no way back to www other than the back button
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, ompaul was just pointing out that the top-right nav tabs are inconsistent
<Burgundavia> ah, help.u.c I cannot help you with
<Burgundavia> that is truly mkde's domain
<ompaul> there is no help for help ;-)
<ompaul> well at the moment, at any rate.
<ompaul> anyway guys I have to depart and take care of the start of Saturday take it easy
<Madpilot> later
<Madpilot> need to crash too
<sladen> what's the best way of contacting Ubuntu Forums people by IRC?
<LaserJock> sladen: #ubuntuforums if you haven't found that already
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<mdke> sladen: I'm told #ubuntuforums in fact isn't related to the forums at all, confusingly. Best to leave a message on the forum.
* mdke disappears again
<LaserJock> mdke: really?
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-30
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, evidently John Moser thinks that "people don't read documentation" is a bug the DocTeam/Ubuntu can fix... (re: the bug report you tried to close earlier today...)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep
<LaserJock> Madpilot: which one?
<LaserJock> I gotta see this
<Madpilot> https://launchpad.net/bugs/54501
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54501 in ubuntu-docs "Give help in the default Web page" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
<Madpilot> read the last comment, the long one from John Moser
<Madpilot> he has some good points, but still...
<LaserJock> ack, I told him to file a bug and provide a patch
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock , how goes it?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: fine
* robotgeek wonders at poor documentation that came with his car antenna
<LaserJock> they have documentation?
<LaserJock> :-)
<robotgeek> or with the car, even
<LaserJock> well my stupid "Service Engine Soon" light came on this week
<LaserJock> have no idea what it's problem is
<LaserJock> it happened right after I took it in for a smog test
<robotgeek> which car?
<LaserJock> it's a 2000 GMC Jimmy SUV
<robotgeek> its such a pain to replace the antenna on a 1998 honda civic
<LaserJock> hmm, that's odd
<LaserJock> I guess you just need to get satellite or something ;-)
<robotgeek> no thanks, i have a 10 minute drive to work :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, get a bike then, park the Civic :)
<LaserJock> I've thought of that (the uni is about 15-20 min. drive but only about 6 miles)
<LaserJock> but it'd be a bit steep on the way back and I'd have to go through a rough area
<robotgeek> Madpilot: thought about it, but is kind of difficult for other tasks
<robotgeek> holy crap, this is going to take a while!
<robotgeek> someone had the braindead idea of: remove car stereo to replace antenna!
* robotgeek should just get a radio reciever with headphones, lol
<robotgeek> anyways, food time
<manicka> afternoon rob :)
<rob> hi manicka 
<cosmolax> hello.
<cosmolax> I'm now editing a wiki page on wiki.ubuntu.com to indroduce our loco team.
<Burgundavia> hey
<cosmolax> & now I am editing the ~/ActTeam page
<cosmolax> but I found a word like this "ActTeam" have a "?" infront of it, how can I disable this option?
<cosmolax> I mean, I just want ActTeam show as a word but not a inter link.
<Burgundavia> that would be a wiki word
<Burgundavia> put `` in between
<cosmolax> Burgundavia you mean bwtween Act and Team ?
<Burgundavia> yep
<cosmolax> Burgundavia ok, seems that would be a solution.thanks. :)
<Burgundavia> cheers
<romana> hello
<ablomen> hey guys
<romana> i said hello, noone is alive:)
<romana> or they hat eme;)
<ablomen> i'd like to write a dutch ubuntu starters guide, in #ubuntu-nl we get much questions about how to get the extra repos, howto install codecs etc
<romana> s/hat/hate
<ablomen> and some/most of those people cant read engilsh that good
<ablomen> s/engilsh/english
<romana> my first time here,im interested in helping. i do documentation at work, so thought id be usefl
<romana> we must be in wrong time zones to get response
<ablomen> romana: patience ;)
<ablomen> i just want to know if i can talk with someone about hosting it on help.ubuntu.com etc
<romana> oh, i can revisit another time when people are active:)
<romana> its just winding down sunday night here
<romana> past the long dark teatime of the soul, as it were;)
<ablomen> if someone important sees my posts here please message me or e-mail me at info@ablomen.nl, thanks :)
<manicka> romana, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam
<manicka> hmm, gone
<sladen> mdke: thanks.  Oh well, do you know if there is /any/ way to get in contact with the forums people that doesn't actually involve signing up with the forums...
<manicka> sladen, ....damn, I used to have ubuntu-geek's email address here somewhere
<sladen> manicka: thanks if you find it
<manicka> searching.... might be out of luck :(
<manicka> sladen, good news :) ...ubuntu-geek is the owner/head admin... ryan@emailblue.com
<manicka> Real name Ryan Troy
<sladen> manicka: ooh, groovy
<manicka> or try john dong (jdong)
<manicka> john.dong@gmail.com
<manicka> another admin
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-23
<tck> just looking at this page for Tor https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TOR
<tck> You will need to add the following repositories to your /etc/apt/sources.list file:
<tck> deb http://mirror.noreply.org/pub/tor edgy main
<tck> that should be Feisty right ?
<ubotu> New bug: #127701 in ubuntu-doc "Tor help page may need to be updated. " [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/127701
<ubotu> New bug: #47504 in ubuntu-doc "Gender conventions notice in documents" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/47504
<mdke> tck: for future things like that, you can just edit the page directly, no need to file a bug
<mdke> thanks for the heads up though
<tck> mdke : the tor one?
<mdke> yeah
<tck> ok cool ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-25
<ubotu> New bug: #128182 in ubuntu-doc "Postfix installation guide fails to mention 'adduser postfix sasl'" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128182
<Admiral_laptop> so apparently i'm not going to bed yet...
<Admiral_laptop> wait a second, this isn't #xubuntu-devel.
<Admiral_laptop> maybe i need to be going to bed soon, i'm all kinds of confused
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<jjesse> @time detroit
<ubotu> Current time in America/Detroit: July 25 2007, 11:01:16 - Next meeting: Xubuntu Developers in 4 hours 58 minutes
<nixternal> mornin'
* kjcole is away: Gone away for now.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-26
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kubrick.freenode.net
<mdke> mpt: well, those pages all do; I was thinking more of the question of how/whether to incorporate that material into our styleguide
<nixternal> mornin'
<Admiral_laptop> hehe, i see i'm not the online up nixternal :)
<nixternal> huh?
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> only one you mean?
<nixternal> stinkin' broken gtk
<Admiral_laptop> i broke this server, its not passing information correctly anymore
<Admiral_laptop> i meant only one in our area. the other chicago channels are dead
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> nixternal: fancy approving the fridge story in the queue?
<nixternal> will do now
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> it's nice to have a bit of momentum behind docs again, way to go philbull
<nixternal> done
<nixternal> no doubt
<nixternal> seen a few new faces today as well
<mdke> cool
<mdke> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts?action=show - any comments
<mdke> i can't really think of a good response to the "i'm making money" justification
<Admiral_laptop> might also want to talk to the folks behing http://ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> I think that's one of those listed
<Admiral_laptop> nope
<mdke> yes, it is
<Admiral_laptop> which one?
<mdke> fourth on the list
<Admiral_laptop> dur, my glasses need to be upped i think. can't read.
<mdke> :)
<Admiral_laptop> the only thing I can think of about the money argument would be to link back to the original source
<mdke> ok, gtg
<mdke> cya
<kwah> hi! simple question: is localized documentation https://help.ubuntu.com/ available online?
<dsas> kwah: Each locoteam may localise it and store it on their own loco site.
<dsas> e.g. the italian loco team have it on help.ubuntu-it.org
<kwah> dsas, as far as I understand help.ubuntu.com contains the same doecumentation as in System - Help and support menu
<dsas> kwah: That's right (except for the content under help.ubuntu.com/community)
<kwah> So, this docmunentation is translated through synaptic
<dsas> kwah: It's translated through Rosetta (launchpad) and installed as a "langpack" like other software.
<kwah> and it used to be available via common web-site
<kwah> why did it change?
<kwah> sorry, of course through launchpad
<dsas> kwah: The english HTML versions  are then uploaded to help.ubuntu.com and other teams take a copy of their translated html versions and upload to their webspace.
<dsas> kwah: As for why it changed, I don't know. Maybe part of the better-wiki-docs spec.
<kwah> hm. how loco team can get this sort of documentation for upload on their own web-space?
<kwah> i mean translated version of course
<dsas> kwah: I think you have to build it yourself (this is pretty easy I think)
<kwah> the only way I see right now is to build it myself
<dsas> kwah: Maybe \https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation will help (see the "testing translation" part)
<kwah> right
<kwah> ok thanks.
<kwah> dsas, I will check this out
<kwah> btw, do you know about any efforts to structure wiki taking into account available translations?
<kwah> here I mean community pages of help.ubuntu.com
<dsas> kwah: I think current policy is that each loco team does this on their own wiki.
<dsas> kwah: I am not very involved with the docteam though, mdke, nixternal and others know more than I.
<kwah> dsas, thanks for your help and time.
<dsas> kwah: no problem, hope I have helped.
<kwah> yep. thanks.
<ian_brasil_> nixternal: hi...i put the guide in /ubuntu-doc/generic on my machine here
<ubotu> New bug: #128495 in ubuntu-docs (main) "The Installation section of the Switching from Windows guide is out of date" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128495
<nixternal> holy smokes! that docuMENTORS post brought a ton of movement in no time!
<jjesse> i know its awesome
<jjesse> hoepfully we can get some peple to work on kubuntu docs out of them
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> no love man :)
<jjesse> i know, never is
<nixternal> hey, did I tell you...this weekend Phil and I had lunch? he is/was in town working at Fermi lab right up the street
<jjesse> oh that's cool
<jjesse> i'm in chicago again in sept i think
<nixternal> ya, he is way Kool :)
<nixternal> so am I! what a coincidence :)
<jjesse> the week of the 2nd
<tristanbob_> mdke: did you see my comment on your blog?
<tristanbob_> just posted
<tristanbob> mdke: sorry if I missed your reply - had to reboot
<jjesse> tristanbob: i don't think there was a reply in irc
<tristanbob> thanks jjesse
<jjesse> np
<bdmurray> How did you advertise your mentoring program?
<jjesse> bdmurray: hadd a docteam meeting yesterday and then sent an email to ubuntu-doc mailing list
<jjesse> also mdke wrote a note on his blog
<bdmurray> ah the power of the blog
<jjesse> ah the power of a planet :)
<bdmurray> Incidentally, how do you all run Gutsy?
<bdmurray> On real hardware or in a virtual machine . . .
<tristanbob> Matthew,  agree with your point, we should work together to create excellent documentation that can be found in one place.
<tristanbob> If that is our goal, dont you think it is about time the Ubuntu Wiki provided a WSIWYG editing interface? I remember the first time I had to learn wiki style editing, and it is was a frustrating experience. This learning curve is an unnecessary barrier that stops many people from contributing to the wiki.
<tristanbob> What do you guys think about that?
<tristanbob> Any plans to add WSIWG functionality to the wiki?
<jjesse> tristanbob: i don't know how much control we as a documentation team have over what wiki engine is used
<tristanbob> probably no control, but definitely influence
<mdke> bdmurray: the fridge. Didn't blog yet
<mdke> tristanbob: yes, I've read your comment
<mdke> tristanbob: but I just got home from work so haven't had an opportunity to reply yet
<tristanbob> mdke: np
<mdke> tristanbob: we've been pushing for an update to the wiki software for a long time but the sysadmins seem to be rather resistant. I will try and raise the subject again. But, I don't think the wysiwyg editor is a huge barrier to contribution for most people, because wiki markup is in fact incredibly simple
<mdke> an update would be helpful for lots of reasons though
<tristanbob> mdke: entering text is easy, but tables, formating text, is quite non-intuitive until you read the docs
<tristanbob> mdke: entering text is easy, but tables, formatting text, is quite non-intuitive until you read the docs
<mdke> tables can be tricky yes, but those are rarely used for documentation
<mdke> not to the extent that is prohibitive for contribution anyway
<mdke> wow, there has been an excellent response to the mentoring announcement
<Admiral_Chicago> seriously.
<fijam> my mailbox is stuffed.
<jjesse> that's a good problem to have :)
<jjesse> we need to track these and get people working now
<mdke> yes, we're in danger of losing track already. Let's do a table
<LaserJock> hola DocuMENTORS!!
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: is it kubuntu or xubuntu you are interested in again?
* mdke is doing a table
<mdke> hiya LaserJock
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: does Xubuntu work
<Admiral_Chicago> mdke: both. my focus is xubuntu but I know Kubuntu a lot better and would help there as well
<mdke> thanks
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: yes it works.
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago: meant that Admiral_Chicag works on Xubuntu
<LaserJock> so have we defined what it means to me a mentor?
<LaserJock> like what is expected
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse: well jim and I have been meeting and learning docbook and making patches
<Admiral_Chicago> we have a roadmap for when we want things done, its been tough though
<jjesse> my statement was in response to mdke
<Admiral_Chicago> oh I see. :)
<mdke> LaserJock: it really means just to give a commitment to give advice on the mailing list for your "student" and to prioritise reviewing patches
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I'll sign up for the packaging guide and Edubuntu
<mdke> obviously, other people can still reply and review patches too if they wish
<LaserJock> although I'd *like* to have more help with Edubuntu
* mdke nods
* LaserJock pokes nixternal
<Admiral_Chicago> hehe
<Admiral_Chicago> I'm glad we have so many people responding, the hard part will be getting them workin and sticking around
<jjesse> !nixternal
<ubotu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!
<LaserJock> yes, we need to go from "Yippee! give me something to do!" to "I'm working on this specific doc/topic/bug"
<DarkRaven> hiya....which package needs attention, keeping in mind that I need to be mentored....I have downloaded the ubuntu-docs repo...?
<mdke> that's right
<mdke> phil has done a pretty good job of assigning some bugs already, I've added a table on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring to keep focused on who is doing what
<LaserJock> we do need to have a list of "bite-sized" task for people to look at
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, I'm guessing bugs might be a helpful thing here
<mdke> DarkRaven: the best idea would be to have a look at the documentation and find something you are interested in. Alternatively, have a look through our list of bugs or tasks (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Tasks)
<mdke> LaserJock: we have that list (see above link)
<DarkRaven> shot mdke....I'll have a look....
<mdke> shot?
<DarkRaven> thanks...
<mdke> ah, I thought I smelled a cricketing term
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, I was very happy to see that
<DarkRaven> my apologies...a term used here....
<bdmurray> Does the doc team work on documentation for the development release only?
<Admiral_Chicago> bdmurray: what do you mean?
<bdmurray> I mean there is going to be an update for Dapper and maybe it could ship with updated documentation.
<bdmurray> But I am not sure if much is going to change.
<fijam> as for stable releases, updates are generally security updates, so there's not much to change in the docs.
<nixternal> yup
<bdmurray> It is a point release though
<mdke> we've already pushed updates to dapper in the past
<mdke> same principles apply as do to other packages
<mdke> the material is in branch/releasename in our svn repository
<nixternal> how do you get an SRU approved with Docs if they aren't security related?
<nixternal> unless you are backporting them?
<bdmurray> I thought there was an exception made for the documentation.
<bdmurray> Meaning that it doesn't need to go through exactly the same procedure.
<nixternal> I don't know..tis why I was asking
<dsas> it was mentioned on the list a few months ago...
<mdke> nixternal: it's not easy to get sru approval but can be done for serious bugs
<nixternal> speaking of lists, where is Burger when you need him?
<mdke> at the moment we don't have a different policy for documentation, although it's been discussed
<nixternal> mdke: rock on then...I wonder how much stuff has changed that a point release is necessary for docs?
<bdmurray> FWIW, I agree with this; if you have updates which should really go
<bdmurray> in, the procedure shouldn't block you from doing that.
<nixternal> I can't even remember Dapper :)
<mdke> nixternal: I can't think of anything off-hand, but we can fix bugs if other people can :)
<bdmurray> ^- That is what Tollef the Release Manager said.
<nixternal> woohoo!
<nixternal> now that is what I wanted to do during the Dapper days, and you used to get mad at me for changing strings :)
<nixternal> muhehehe!
<nixternal> svn revert was my best friend back then
<mdke> but they need to be serious, because it's not worth it otherwise
<nixternal> ya
<bdmurray> I think if it is a string that could cause more bug reports it is worth changing.
<nixternal> and i can't think of any that are serious in Kubuntu off-hand w/o going through the old bug logs
<mdke> we don't have much contribution, and rolling packages for a sru is quite a large effort
<mdke> --> bed
<nixternal> g'nite homeskillet!
<nixternal> ;)
<mdke> --> dictionary
<nixternal> hahaha
<bdmurray> nixternal: did you know there are vmware images available for dapper?
<nixternal> if you find it, I would drop dead right here
<nixternal> bdmurray: and breezy, and hoary, and even debian potato :)
<nixternal> I was just looking at all of the vmware images on the vmware site...it was rather interesting to say the least
<mdke> hmm. Skillet - a cylindrical serving vessel of the late 17th and early 18th centuries, having a hinged lid, a handle, and, sometimes, feet.
<nixternal> hahahah
<nixternal> do you have feet?
<nixternal> homeskillet was Larry the Cable Guy trying to be a gangster I think
* nixternal wonders if Larry the Cable Guy is known in the UK
<mdke> aha, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homeskillet
<mdke> i'll take it as a compliment then
<nixternal> hahahahah
<mdke> --> bed
<nixternal> omg
<nixternal> g'nite
<j1mc> "Tell homeskillet to fire up the bar-b-q, I'll be home in a minute.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-27
<nixternal> well heck, who is going to mentor me?
<nixternal> jeesh you guys, I never expected all of this attention to documentation...I expected a few, but man the inbox has been loaded today
<nixternal> Burgundavia: can you do me a favor when you get a chance and remove me as a moderator from the marketing list? thanks
<Burgundavia> sure
<mdke> morning
<bhuvan> morning mdke
<mdke> hiya bhuvan
<mdke> how's it going?
<bhuvan> going good mdke
<mdke> bhuvan: glad to hear it
<bhuvan> mdke: thank you!
<mdke> nixternal: I had a reply from Christer about his site, saying he might be willing to contribute. I've replied and tried to allay some of his concerns about contributing. We'll see...
<nixternal> mdke: awesome!
<nixternal> I just got done watching Hot Fuzz...absolutely great
* nixternal beds
<nixternal> g'nite
<dee> hello
<dee> I have a question concerning http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1041
<dee> in how far can Non-English speakers help here?
<somerville32> One moment please.
<somerville32> The documentation is written in English and then translated. However, that doesn't prevent you from helping with that program.
<dee> yes but if we write an article in our German news portale I know that there are many users who will be asking what they can do without much Englisch knowledge.
<somerville32> They can assist with translations.
<dee> is this covered by the mentoring programme too?
<somerville32> No, I don't believe so
<dee> this is bad because most people has problem with it.
<dee> but thanks for your answer. we will write one or two sentence in our weekly report on sunday
* fijam is away: dinner
* fijam is back (gone 01:37:25)
<jjesse> fijam: can you please remove your away/back triggers
<fijam> sure
<nixternal> man, doing a custom frame/table layout in docbook couldn't be anymore difficult I don't think
<ubotu> New bug: #128774 in ubuntu-doc "No need to link to external F-Spot documentation" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128774
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-28
<nixternal> <sidebar> is sweet!
<nixternal> hrmm, I thought it was sweet...but man you have to hack the hell out of xslt files
<ubotu> New bug: #128805 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Numerous validation errors in trunk/ubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/128805
<mdke> damn it
<Admiral_laptop> nixternal: jim is going to send a patch to the doc team shortly, can you apply it.
<nixternal> yup
<Admiral_laptop> thanks
<Admiral_laptop> nixternal: patch applied?
<nixternal> checking email now
<nixternal> comitted
<nixternal> come on...you gotta do more work than 2 lines in a entity file ;p
<Admiral_laptop> nixternal: check the doc list, I have a bigger patch sent in.
<nixternal> roger
<nixternal> committing it now
<Admiral_laptop> kkthx
<Admiral_laptop> i'm an official contributor... \0/
<Admiral_laptop> err...
<Admiral_laptop> \o/ \o/
<nixternal> umm moron, this isn't your first patch ;)
<nixternal> I have committed others by you for kubuntu when you started fixing my bugs months back ;p
<Admiral_laptop> well, my first big patch
<Admiral_laptop> i
<Admiral_laptop> i'll ask for SVN access after I fell a bit more comfortable with this stuff.
<Admiral_laptop> heya fijam
<Admiral_laptop> jim and I are working on docs right now
<fijam> hello
<fijam> hmm, that's a motivation
<Admiral_laptop> do you have a section you are looking at?
<fijam> yes - Internet
<nixternal> Admiral_laptop: as long as you submit patches that validate, are pretty good grammar/spelling wise, you will have no problem...I didn't have a chance to look through for grammar and spelling on that last patch, I will do so here in a bit
<nixternal> we are working on KDE4 KHC stuff right now so I am kind of busy
<Admiral_laptop> have any issues fijam?
<Admiral_laptop> or questions?
<fijam> haven't really started
<fijam> currently - no.
<Admiral_laptop> okay, give them a look and see what you need help on
<fijam> sure.
<fijam> brb
<Admiral_laptop> nixternal: one more patch coming your way
<nixternal> slow down homey :)
<robotgeek> nixternal: yes, the kubuntu menu is rocking!
<robotgeek> nixternal: doesn't digikam deserve to be in music, video and photos section. i dont mind contributing a patch to add it in :)
<j1mc> hi all.  i've been working on an "about-xubuntu" section.  it validates, but it is not under version control at this time.
<j1mc> there wasn't an "about-xubuntu" section before.
<j1mc> should i just submit the file to the ML?
<robotgeek> j1mc: you dont have commit access?
<j1mc> robotgeek: no, not at this time.
<robotgeek> j1mc: then yes, just mail the file.
<j1mc> will do.  thanks, robotgeek
<robotgeek> thanks, j1mc !
<robotgeek> it sure would be nice to add Help:/ handler to firefox by default
<nixternal> robotgeek: get to patching..actually, you have commit access don't you? get to work :)
<nixternal> dunno why digiKam isn't in there..unless I just link to it via <ulink type="help" url="help:/digikam/">
<nixternal> we can't use KDE docs anymore, or pull from them since our stupid docs are CC-by-SA now
<robotgeek> nixternal: yes, i do. i will add a small section on digikam in an appropriate place.
<robotgeek> oh okay. i will see if the digikam documentation has relevant entries.
<robotgeek> digikam docs exist, but was not installed by default.
<nixternal> hrmm
<robotgeek> well, the documentation for digikam is pretty good, i'll just link to it (with a note that it might need to be installed).
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: did you apply that patch?
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: oh i see it is, ignore me then...
<mdke> Admiral_Chicago: I've replied to your basic-commands patch email, would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Can't hang around on irc though, I'm off to bed - perhaps email?
<nixternal> yes
<jjesse> wow the mailing list is very active, that's awesome
#ubuntu-doc 2007-07-29
<LaserJock> mdke: do you know if there has been any progress on the wiki.ubuntu.com licensing?
<nixternal> LaserJock: we are going to license it under the GPLv3
<robotgeek> !topic
<ubotu> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
<nixternal> now go back into hibernation! :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: are you serious!?!
<nixternal> no
<LaserJock> phew
<robotgeek> lol
<nixternal> figured you would have caught that one :)
<LaserJock> I was about to freak
<nixternal> phew? are you out of your mind!
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> GPL > CC-by-garbage any day of the week!
<LaserJock> sure, expect no docs that I'm aware of use GPLV3 yet
<LaserJock> *except
<crimsun> bad, public dom it.
<nixternal> that CC stuff has gotten out of hand...there is like CC-by-A-B-C-D-E-F...
<robotgeek> is there a list of tasks pending for Kubuntu ?
<crimsun> I'll be sure to license all help for alsa under gplv3
<LaserJock> nixternal: bah, there is not, it's really simple
<nixternal> robotgeek: not really, just work on whatever you feel like
<nixternal> crimsun: you rock!
<LaserJock> crimsun: docs *we* would use ;-)
<nixternal> ouch
<robotgeek> nixternal: just wanted to make sure that i did not duplicate work
<crimsun> that's true.  That's why I left Ubuntu anyhow.
<nixternal> that was a low blow
<nixternal> robotgeek: nah, we are flying by the seat of our pants as usual
<LaserJock> nixternal: who in the doc team is going to use alsa docs?
<nixternal> jjesse is working on the add-applications stuff, and I am working on the index, other than that, everything else is open
* nixternal is
<jjesse> correct
<LaserJock> crimsun: cause nobody looks after alsa?
<nixternal> jjesse: you see the new index btw?
<jjesse> not yet
<crimsun> no, because I don't have a pink pony.
<nixternal> crimsun: can I join you in leaving too? maybe we can meet up on Debian Lane :)
<robotgeek> when is string freeze?
<nixternal> 2 months
<nixternal> less than 2 months
<crimsun> GutsyReleaseSchedule
<LaserJock> crimsun: but you've got 2 Golden ones I think :-)
<robotgeek> crimsun: ty!
<LaserJock> I'm concerned about the wiki licensing because of the packaging guide
<nixternal> ooh, didn't even think about that
<LaserJock> with the new doc effort going on in MOTU, there's lots of good material
<nixternal> LaserJock: isn't the PG dual licensed?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> just GPL
<nixternal> oh, I thought it was
<nixternal> dual license the PG for the time being until the wiki license gets straightened out
<LaserJock> I can't exactly
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure if I can
<nixternal> you can if you get the contributors say so on it
<LaserJock> I have an amount of Debian docs in there
<nixternal> oh ya
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if it would count as fair use or not
<nixternal> hrmm, well don't they allow double licensing?
<LaserJock> I use Debian Policy
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> I don't blame you :)
<crimsun> err, actual Debian docs or references to Debian docs?
<LaserJock> actual Debian Policy material
<LaserJock> well, or at least close enough
<crimsun> werbatim?
<crimsun> verbatim , even
<LaserJock> well, I'd have to go back and look
<LaserJock> it's not exactly verbatim I don't think
<crimsun> if it's not verbatim,then at the very least you can further parphrase and provide an in-place URL
<crimsun> paraphrase
<LaserJock> Maybe what should be done is to quote the Debian Policy where needed
<LaserJock> then it's just a reference, not a derivative work, right?
<crimsun> right, what I said.
<LaserJock> right
<nixternal> how difficult would it be to dual license the Kubuntu docs? we change stuff from KDE, and I need to pull some KDE documentation and integrate it with Kubuntu documentation..for KDE we use GFDL
<nixternal> this dual licensing stuff is nuts
<LaserJock> I don't think you can just dual license stuff
<nixternal> ya...we had it dual licensed once
<LaserJock> if it's a derivative work then you have to ask KDE if its ok
<LaserJock> because you are in essence relicensing their work
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> unless we do like crimsun said and paraphrase..will that work?
<LaserJock> well, this is something *I'm* not clear on at all
<LaserJock> what constitutes a derivative work?
<LaserJock> I assume that if you quote or fall under "fair use" a link works without it being a derivative work
<nixternal> what was the main reason for switching to CC-by-SA for our docs?
<nixternal> was it for the book?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> well, I'm sure that's part of it
<LaserJock> you mean switching from GFDL/CC-by-SA to just CC-by-SA?
<nixternal> ya, that sucks for Kubuntu seeing we only have 1 chapter in the book
<nixternal> yes
<LaserJock> it's basically, IMO, because dual licensing sucks for getting material
<LaserJock> the forums are CC-by-SA
<LaserJock> the book is
<nixternal> help.ubuntu.com/community is as well
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> the problem with the dual licensing was basically that we weren't compatible with anybody
<nixternal> ya, I now understand that after thinking a whole 2 seconds about it
<LaserJock> doc licensing really stinks, especially as I haven't seen a clear "leader" like GPL is for software
<nixternal> well GFDL is clear, but people made a stink about invariant sections
<nixternal> you shouldn't have invariant sections in documentation honestly
<LaserJock> why not?
<LaserJock> it makes perfect sense to me
<nixternal> having stuff that says something like "I think or I believe that Gnome shouldn't or should...."
<nixternal> that makes a section invariant correct?
<nixternal> you shouldn't have opinions in official/system documentation
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> an invariant section can *only* be in secondary matter
<nixternal> i.e. the index?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> basically it is for the license of the doc
<LaserJock> as you shouldn't be able to change the license right?
<nixternal> well I read it as the "opinions" of the author or what not when going through the Debian review of the GFDL
<LaserJock> no, I actually read the GFDL
<nixternal> I have too, and I will be honest, I was confused a bit by the invariant section part
<LaserJock> "The "Invariant Sections" are certain Secondary Sections whose titles are designated"
<LaserJock> so it has to be a secondary section
<LaserJock> ""Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of the Document"
<nixternal> hrmm..what happens if you don't add an "invariant section"?
<nixternal> does it then make it free in Debian's eyes?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but RMS likes to make the License section of a doc Invariant
<LaserJock> so like Debian took out all the emacs documentation and put it in non-free
<nixternal> I was told by Peter Brown this is supposed to change for GFDLv3..how true that is I don't know
<LaserJock> well, I understand Debian's position, I just think it's kinda stupid
<nixternal> ditto
<LaserJock> I thought you could make anything invariant, and that did sound pretty bad
<nixternal> actually, I did to
<LaserJock> but if you read the details of what a secondary section is it's pretty restriced
<nixternal> the Attribution condition for the CC-by-SA is what Debian doesn't view as free right?
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not really sure
<LaserJock> I think it's mainly some wording
<LaserJock> not really the concept
<nixternal> I GET IT NOW
<LaserJock> oh?
<nixternal> dual licensing doesn't help you with using others work, it only helps downstream in a way...so whoever takes my work, can choose which license they wish to use
<LaserJock> exactly
<nixternal> OK, now it makes better sense now
<nixternal> exactly? why couldn't you stop me from looking like an idiot sooner? :)
<LaserJock> so I think initially it was "we'll be nice and let other people do what they want with the Ubuntu docs, like derivs"
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> which I think is kind of nice
<LaserJock> but now it's like "oh, we'd like to pull material from X and Y, oh darn, our license doesn't work well for that"
<nixternal> see, for Kubuntu docs, our main source of course (Dr. Seuss) is KDE which is GFDL
<nixternal> so in all honestly, it is kind of silly for us to use CC-by-SA...it would be nice to dual license the wiki truthfully
<nixternal> there is quite a bit of documentation on h.u.c/community that was pulled from GPL/GFDL sources
<nixternal> hehe, Reno 911 movie is nuts
<nixternal> you wanna see a great movie, Hot Fuzz...great British humor in it
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> Hello nixternal,
<nixternal> We at Ubuntu Forums would like to wish you a happy birthday today!
<nixternal> heh, it must be midnight where ever that server is
<nixternal> I had forgotten about that
<LaserJock> it's your BIRTHDAY?
<nixternal> tomorrow for us
<LaserJock> wow, you must be ancient by now ;-)
<nixternal> 17
* LaserJock chokes on his water
<nixternal> lol
<crimsun> yous guys are fogeys.
<nixternal> hah
<LaserJock> crimsun: you're still older than me
<LaserJock> and I'm still the youngest person in my lab, except for the summer undergrad guy
<LaserJock> but I feel ancient :/
<crimsun> I'm younger than nixternal.
<crimsun> somewhere between 10 and 16.
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> and they let you work in D.C.?
<LaserJock> surely they have child-labor laws
<crimsun> I _write_ the child labour laws.  I'm obviously exempt.
<LaserJock> ahhhh
<LaserJock> crimsun: so are you going to have any time for Debian/other FLOSS even?
<crimsun> I guess that depends how badly I want to drive myself to an early grave.
<LaserJock> understandable
<crimsun> unlike you fogeys, I have to get rest to grow strong, healthy bones.
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> crimsun: oh geeze, you seem to sleep the least of any person I know
<LaserJock> I've got to get 8hrs/day
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<ubotu> New bug: #129032 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Switching guide only covers Internet Explorer favorites" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129032
<mdke> ok, surely the largest commit ever
<mdke> let's see how long it takes
<mdke> no, disappointingly fast
<fijam> hello
<fijam> where do I find &legalnotice?
<mdke> fijam: trunk/libs/cdo-C.ent
<fijam> thanks.
<topaspv> hi! a short question: how can i include a link to a picture without having the picture itself included in the wiki page?
<mdke> topaspv: I'm not sure there is a good way to do it (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnActions/AttachFile). You'll probably have to use the "get" link which you see under the attachments page
<topaspv> ok, i'll have a try
<topaspv> no difference.
<mdke> hmm?
<mdke> topaspv: what's the page, and where is your link?
<topaspv> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SimplyStunningLinuxDesktop
<mdke> you tried [link text] ?
<topaspv> no
<topaspv> i'll do
<mdke> ok
<topaspv> no, doesn't make a difference
<mdke> lemme try
<mdke> topaspv: can you come out of the page?
<topaspv> out of the page?
<mdke> stop editing
<topaspv> done
<mdke> no, you still have a lock on it
<mdke> save or cancel
<topaspv> done
<mdke> topaspv: ok, it works now. have a look at the format used
<topaspv> looks pretty simple
<topaspv> thanks :)
<topaspv> i'm gonna ask myself why i didn't have this idea myself..
<mdke> np
<topaspv> bye
<jjesse> wow i'm aamazed at how active the mailing list has become
<jjesse> that's awesome
<techII> ok, does some type of self help "wizard" exist?
<mpt> techII, M-x doctor?
<mpt> or perhaps you could be more specific?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-21
<duncan-nz> is anyone able to confirm a bug report I have? Open Yelp and search for 'workspace', then select the link to documentation for 'clock'. Tell me what happens please.
<mpt> duncan-nz, none of the search results I get mention "clock"
<duncan-nz> mpt, are you running Hardy with Yelp 2.22.1
<mpt> duncan-nz, yes
<mpt> Possibly I don't have the relevant package installed, though
<duncan-nz> mpt, the panel clock is standard to the gnome desktop. Running gnome?
<mpt> yes
<mpt> I get results from, in order: GNOME 2.14 Desktop System Administration Guide, Klotski, Assistive Tools, Tali, Introduction to the Desktop, Sticky Notes, "Problem showing document", Sound Juicer, and Passwords and Encryption Keys
<duncan-nz> Do you have Tracker enabled?
<duncan-nz> mpt, ?
<mpt> duncan-nz, no, I don't know how to do that
<duncan-nz> mpt, ok. What do you get if you search for 'clock manual'?
<mpt> "clock manual" is result #3
<mpt> (which is a bug in itself -- it should be result #1)
<mpt> I click it, and I get the "Clock Manual" page, which is empty except for two copies of the same table of contents, which is daft
<mpt> plus links to the previous and next sections
<mpt> So the page contains *three* links to something called "Introduction", but doesn't actually contain any help!
<duncan-nz> Yes it's odd that the first page isn't the introduction. But for some larger manuals it makes sense.
<duncan-nz> When you say two copies do you mean one in the middle and one to the right?
<mpt> yep
<duncan-nz> ok, so that's not so stupid, because the right hand links stay there as you navigate. But feel free to report it as a bug.
<duncan-nz> Could you do me the favour of enabling Tracker?
<mpt> Sure, if you let me know how to do that I'd be very grateful, because then Deskbar would be more useful :-)
<duncan-nz> I'd really like to isolate this silly little bug.
<duncan-nz> mpt, 'System > Preferences > Search and Indexing'
<duncan-nz> mpt, let me know when/if you have question or have it running.
<mpt> Every checkbox is checked except "Generate thumbnails" and "Perform fast index merges"
<duncan-nz> Oh, then have a look at 'Applications > Accessories > Tracker Search Tool' and search for a word it should be able to find, but which isn't all over the place.
<mpt> I have a file on my desktop called "Decluttering". Searching in Tracker Search Tool for "decluttering" returns no results.
<duncan-nz> OK, so it's not working. Does it tell you that it has not finished indexing?
<duncan-nz> or any other error?
<mpt> no
<mpt> All it says is "Your search returned no results."
<duncan-nz> In 'System > Administration > Session Preferences > Startup Programs' is the entry 'Tracker' enabled?
<mpt> I have no "Session Preferences" item in my Administration menu
<mpt> I assume you mean System > Preferences > Sessions?
<mpt> In "Startup Programs" there, Tracker is present and checked
<mpt> And in "Current Session", "trackerd" is present and has a lifebuoy icon
<mpt> (and so does "tracker-applet")
<duncan-nz> mpt, I'm looking around for an answer now...
<mpt> If it's a common problem, maybe it deserves a help page of its own :-)
<duncan-nz> Odd, that it doesn't just work for you.
<duncan-nz> And you say that under the 'Files' tab ' the home directory is selected to be indexed?
<mpt> yes
<mpt> "Index and watch my home directory"
<duncan-nz> Do you feel like doing some work on the wiki?
<mpt> Actually I'm at work at the moment, but when I get home, sure
<duncan-nz> Oh, ok. I'll find the link for you.
<duncan-nz> Ok, took a fair bit of work to get things sorted out over at the wiki, but here is the section that needs work: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AccessoriesApplications#Tracker%20Search%20Tool
<Mhz> sera a tutti ragazzi
<Mhz> :)
<Mhz> scusatemi ho un grosso problema con lo spazio allocato sulla mia partizione linux,ho terminato lo spazio disponibile
<Mhz> qualcuno ha esperienza con gparted?
<Mhz> volevo sapere se era possibile aumentare lo spazio allocandolo correttamente sulla partizione linux
<Mhz> nessuno vÃ¨..
<mpt> duncan-nz, I don't understand why that page exists
<duncan-nz> which page?
<duncan-nz> oh, the one for applications... ?
<duncan-nz> because otherwise there is no way to get an overview of the ubuntu applications and what they do.
<duncan-nz> all the documentation either assumes you know what you want to do, or you know which application you need. What about just looking around to see what's possible?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-22
<Mhz> goodnight
<Alan_M> Hey everyone! :D
<mpt> Does anyone here know, by chance, how I might be able to get Yelp to open a checkout of the Gnome HIG?
<mpt> There are a bunch of DocBook files, but Yelp complains that all of them are invalid
<Gwaihir> mpt: are you opening the master XML file?
<Gwaihir> probably the HIG guide is split up in different small XML files
<mpt> Gwaihir, yes, hig-book.xml includes all the other files as ENTITYs
<Gwaihir> and yelp complains?
<mpt> yes, 'The requested URI "hig-book.xml" is invalid'
<mpt> oh oh!
<mpt> I figured it out
<Gwaihir> have you tried with xmllint to see where/what is the problem?
<mpt> or rather, I remembered Yelp's stupidity
<mpt> Yelp accepts only absolute paths, not relative ones
<Gwaihir> oh yes...
<mpt> So ./hig-book.xml doesn't work, but ~/hacking/hig/C/hig-book.xml does
<Gwaihir> that's it...
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-23
<duncan-nz> anyone watching?
<coolbhavi> yes
<duncan-nz> could you review a wiki page a bit for me? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundVideoDefault
<duncan-nz> just some feedback.
<coolbhavi> You can add a link to restricted formats in case of extra codecs installation I think
<coolbhavi> for newbies it ll be more comprehensive also I think
<duncan-nz> You don't think that Hardy handles this without needing explanation? I suppose we could add a link under 'see also'. Do you have a link handy? Preferably from the official docs.
<coolbhavi> yes but a lot of questions are there in LP in hardy multimedia
<duncan-nz> LP?
<coolbhavi> launchpad
<duncan-nz> I suppose many people are just not used to dealing with codecs. Do you have a link?
<coolbhavi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
<duncan-nz> I think I'd go for the two official pages linked from there. https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/musicvideophotos/C/codecs.html and https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/musicvideophotos/C/video.html#video-badformats ok?
<duncan-nz> Do you feel like adding those links, I'm dashing around the wiki like a madman just now.
<duncan-nz> ?
<coolbhavi> yes just edit the totem part and add https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/musicvideophotos/C/video.html#video-badformats as playing proprietary formats
<duncan-nz> ok
<duncan-nz> thanks
<coolbhavi> and dont forget to edit rythmbox and sound recorder mate...:) Nice work...:)
<duncan-nz> .. don't have time, I'm just trying to set the layout so that when there is time people will do it consistently.
<duncan-nz> What do you think of the whole 'Applications Guide' from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications
<duncan-nz> ?
<coolbhavi> Looks fine to me
<coolbhavi> recommended apps need updating
<coolbhavi> like for mp3 podcats and ipod mounting amarok is the favourite of many I think
<duncan-nz> lots of things need updating, that's not what I'm tring to achieve. I'm trying to establish a structure so people can find things in the same (hopefully logical) way that the Main Menu works. Of course you're right though.
<duncan-nz> anyone watching?
<duncan-nz> wiki question comming
<Hellow> hello
<Hellow> I wish to create a page in the troubleshooting area on how to get help when none of the other pages work
<Hellow> unless that has already been done
<Hellow> how should i go about doing it?
<Flannel> Hellow: what do you mean?
<Hellow> Old_Soldier is helping me
<Old_Soldier> Flannel he's talking about wiki pages , i'll walk him through making sure he doesn't duplicate effort
<Flannel> Old_Soldier: No, I know.  Just wasn't sure what sort of "how do I do it" help he was asking (creating the page, creating the content, something else, etc)
<Hellow> i found a page on my topic, and i added onto it
<duncan-nz> I'm not working on it at the moment but since some people are watching I'd like to draw attention to a project I'm trying to start on the wiki. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/ProjectHome
<Alan_M> Flannel I got confused myself, we were trying to make a team effort on it and i was just like stumped :)
<duncan-nz> Hellow, but are there useful links to it in useful places?
<Hellow> i was suggesting making a "How to get additional help" sort of page in troubleshooting in the community docs, but i found a very similar page on the front page, so i added how to get help via irc
<Hellow> front page of the community docs
<Hellow> nice idea duncan-nz, and i would like to help
<duncan-nz> great, just add a link to your userpage and subscribe to the page and say what you think.
<Hellow> hmm, i have not created a userpage on the docs yet, can i just link to my wiki?
<Hellow> my wiki is the most descriptive page about me
<duncan-nz> but you have a user name, use that
<duncan-nz> if it's not a wikiWord put it in square brackets
<Hellow> right now i am working on going through the pages and cleaning up a few mistakes i found
<duncan-nz> um, okay, cool
<Hellow> like Tee Wars is not teewars anymore, the name was copyrighted by someone else, so they are Teeworlds now
<duncan-nz> ok
<Hellow> how do i make my name a link?
<Hellow> o, and i am adding a ToC to the front page
<Hellow> how do i add a new page to the community docs?
<Hellow> i want to do it for duncan
<duncan-nz> a new page where, on the wiki?
<Hellow> yea
<Hellow> for discussion
<duncan-nz> Just type a WikiWord and then follow that link. But if you're quite new to the wiki it might be best if you stick to editing existing pages for a while. It's easy to accidentally duplicate effort.
<duncan-nz> in this case you might type OpenDiscussion, preview the page, if it's right then save. Then follow the link.
<Hellow> brb
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-24
<Hellow> Hello everyone
<Hellow> i made a sort of "stub" entry for the Home Folder with a "Needs Love" banner at the top here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HomeFolder. If you want to take a shot at completing it, feel free to do so.
<meoblast001> hello
<meoblast001> i made a screencast that is sort of a work in progress
<meoblast001> i made part 1
<meoblast001> but there are some problems
<meoblast001> i dont know of any other recording programs that "just work" other than recordmydesktop
<meoblast001> and that writes to ogg
<meoblast001> nevertheless
<meoblast001> i think it would be possible to convert this to other formats without much quality loss
<meoblast001> i have a link to a low resolution copy of my video
<meoblast001> http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/3/19/904700/Things_Not_to_Do_in_Ubuntu_Pt1.ogg
<meoblast001> if you like it and want the higher resolution, contact me either in here or by my email
<meoblast001> meoblast@aol.com
<meoblast001> i didnt do any beginning slides or exit slides, but if you want me to, i can add them
<meoblast001> i'll be on tommorro if you need to contact me
<jonasbjo1k> hello!
<jonasbjo1k> anyone know how to get fop working in Ubuntu?
<duncan-nz> fop = Fraternal Order of Police?
<duncan-nz> (that means I have no idea)
<wallan1> new sentence for https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation: 'If you would like to contribute to these pages, why not check out the WikiToDo and WikiTeam pages?'
<wallan1> what do people think?
<duncan-nz> well, I like the idea. More hands make easy work and all. Especially if we have a good set of templates and so on...
<wallan1> a different phrasing: 'If you want to contribute to these pages, the WikiToDo and WikiTeam pages are a good place to start.'
<duncan-nz> wallan1, do you have an opinion on how much SebPages should be used?
<duncan-nz> on the wiki I mean.
<wallan1> duncan-nz: SubPages, you mean?
<duncan-nz> yes
<wallan1> not really. one thing i have wondered about in the past is how discussions should be handled. should they always be on a subpage, and if so, what should they be called? /Talk? /Discussion?
<duncan-nz> I like that - why didn't I think of that. I think we should just do that. Decide if it's /Talk (like on wikipedia) on /Discussion
<wallan1> yeah, i think it's good to have a standard name
<duncan-nz> I guess it's best if it's CamelCase, maybe PageTalk ?
<wallan1> i think /discussion is maybe better than /talk - the latter seems a bit vague
<duncan-nz> Not /PageDiscussion ? It'd be easier to type (yawn)
<duncan-nz> ... yes talk is a bit vague.
<duncan-nz> ... yes 'talk' is a bit vague.
<wallan1> yeah, PageDiscussion sounds good
<duncan-nz> But is it wise to start making subpages all over the place?
<duncan-nz> that's the next issue.
<duncan-nz> I like them and think it gives structure, but some do not.
<Old_Soldier> duncan-nz: i think talk pages should be "tabbed" but not created until someone writes on them
<Old_Soldier> just my 2 cents from working on other wikis in the past
<duncan-nz> sure, that's easy to do
<wallan1> it might not be very productive to discuss subpages in general - it's better to talk about specific pages or types of pages
<duncan-nz> well, what about making subpages of /Applications then. that's what Allan and I are working on.
<duncan-nz> what do you think are the issues with subpages Old_Soldier ?
<duncan-nz> this is not a new issue, but I've never felt I've got a clear picture of why we don't use them on http://help.ubuntu.com/
<Old_Soldier> genrally i think subpages are useful for team communication. I used them extensovely when I worked on the team wikis at Gameforge. but in a open wiki they also can become confusing and spam filled
<Old_Soldier> ack i need coffee. too many typos there
<Old_Soldier> is it a moin issue duncan, or just something that was decided upon by an admin in the past?
<duncan-nz> I don't know. But I feel like each time I've tried to establish a page/subpage structure I get told ''that's not how we do things here''
<duncan-nz> I might be wrong, we can just thrash out some guidelines now and try to implement them. This is in the context of this brand new project: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApplicationsDocumentationGuide
<duncan-nz> (I love Wikibooks for structured content, because of it's inherent structure by the way)
<wallan1> duncan-nz: what kind of content do you plan to put in that page?
<duncan-nz> I think software documentation by it's nature has several structures to choose between. By repository, menu position, task to name a few.
<duncan-nz> wallan1, which one?
<wallan1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApplicationsDocumentationGuide
<Old_Soldier> i agree duncan. I'm not against subpages. "talk" and discussion' pages are really useful for collaboaration
<duncan-nz> oh, sorry wrong link...
<duncan-nz> I meant this project: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/ProjectHome
<duncan-nz> as for ApplicationsDocumentationGuide I thought it could have, well I'll paste from the page...
<duncan-nz> <quote>
<duncan-nz> This page will be an extension to WikiGuide specific to documenting applications. For now please follow the WikiGuide.
<duncan-nz> There is a discussion started on making some application documentation templates, you'll find some specific ideas there on how to format new pages and improve existing ones.
<duncan-nz> </quote>
<wallan1> ok, we should link to the ApplicationsDocumentationGuide from the WikiGuide
<duncan-nz> So template(s) for application documentation. If you look around now we have pages based on all kind of structure. "Apps I like", "Alternatives to...", "My uncle says ... is great" and so on.
<duncan-nz> wallan1, but there nothing there yet.
<duncan-nz> you decide.
<wallan1> well, when there's something on there: ;)
<duncan-nz> For example, all the pages on WikiGuide are SubPages
<wallan1> yeah, i think that's appropriate use of subpages
<duncan-nz> wallan1, you're completely right. we should scrap the page I made and make a section of the WikiGuide instead.
<duncan-nz> So what about these:...
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Default
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/SoftwareAll
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/Default
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/All
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/Firefox
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoRestricted/SoftwareAll
<duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoRestricted/Graphic/XPdf (not sure that's in restricted but...)
<wallan1> i'm not sure about using that model for individual application pages... firefox should be ~/Firefox, imo
<duncan-nz> and so on.
<wallan1> but i can see the value in having an applications guide structured in that way
<wallan1> one question - how does this relate to how you define an application?
<wallan1> for example - where would Firestarter go?
<duncan-nz> For now I haven't tried to answer that. If one day everything which turns up in the Main Menu is documented then the question can be asked again. But I don't think there is a definative answer.
<duncan-nz> I guess that's why Launchpad calls then projects.
<duncan-nz> [then = them]
<duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, ?
<Old_Soldier> sup duncan-nz ? I was afk for a little while
<duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, I was just wondering what you thought of our discussion on structure of subpages.
<Old_Soldier> i think that the subpage hierarchy works well for organization. i like you used repo in the structure since apps change menus often
<duncan-nz> would that be a useful way to organise documentation?
<mpt> I have yet to meet anyone who actually wants "documentation" :-)
<mpt> People want answers to their questions
<Old_Soldier> lol that is si true mpt!
<duncan-nz> hi matthew.
<mpt> hello hello
<duncan-nz> Well, if anyone can show me an organisational chart of questions we can use that...
<Old_Soldier> duncan. wiki organization is always a bone of contnetion
<mpt> duncan-nz, designing the chart is part of the challenge. Card-sorting is one way to do it.
<duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, i know
<Old_Soldier> contention. there are lots of arguments for different "flows"
<mpt> Here's the organization that Microsoft uses: http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/
<duncan-nz> I get worried if you quote microsoft on the issue of customer support.
<duncan-nz> but i will look
<mpt> And here's the organization that Apple uses: http://www.apple.com/support/leopard/
<mpt> (ugh, I can hardly read that grey-on-black)
<Old_Soldier> lol. actually though with all their faults. MS has good gui and help organzation
<duncan-nz> I've never once solved a problem with windows by reading their documentation. I have though with Ubuntu.
<mpt> And here's a gallery of nearly 700 help systems: http://www.g2meyer.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2878
<mpt> (those are locally-installed ones, though, not Web sites)
<mpt> One method of deciding on categories for help pages is card sorting: http://www.infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/design/cardsorting.asp
<duncan-nz> I agree that some people want to solve a question. But when I a.) have a problem with a specific application or b.) want to just look around at what's available then: headings like "Why did my widget stop wizzing..." are not helpful
<mpt> Right, so there are broad categories of help pages
<mpt> * "I have problem X"
<mpt> * "How do I do Y"
<mpt> * "Give me a quick overview of feature Z" (less common)
<duncan-nz> That would require a million clicks before I found out why the arrow to the right of the text field for VoIP phone numbers in evolution's contacts doesn't work.
<mpt> sommer, search is also important.
<mpt> erg
<mpt> *So*, search is also important.
<duncan-nz> For that type of question I want 'Internet' > 'Mail' > 'Contact'
<mpt> And if searching for "voip arrow doesn't work" in Evolution's help doesn't return an appropriate page as the first result, report a bug that it should.
<duncan-nz> (I have)
<Old_Soldier> search is critical. google search is so much better than the wiki serach though :/
<Old_Soldier> doc search seems much better over the past couple releases
<duncan-nz> What about making more use of the MoinMoin Categories as 'tags'?
<duncan-nz> Then I could better accept a flat wikipage structure. A CategoryMainRepo for example so I can see pages about software in Main.
<duncan-nz> and CategoryMenuInternet for software found under the Internet part of the main menu.
<duncan-nz> I think we might be finding a compromise which would solve the different ways of navigating.
<duncan-nz> one like CategoryHowtoNetwork for network related pages
<duncan-nz> is this making any sense?
<Old_Soldier>  yeah it makes sense to me. I do see a potential issue  with that : category bloat
<duncan-nz> (CategoryMainRepo should be CategoryRepoMain for alphabetisation)
<duncan-nz> what is category bloat? how can that cause problems?
<duncan-nz> every now and then there is a bit of duplication requiring cleanup - but the cleanup is easy to track because it's there's a category page for all the relevant pages.
<Old_Soldier> too many categories means more chance of mis filing and creates more load on the server come search time
<duncan-nz> mis filing! at the moment there is _no_ filing!
<duncan-nz> well, most pages outside the doc tem are not filed
<Old_Soldier> yeah the guys from the Bt have been working hard at trying to fix that but it is difficult
<duncan-nz> Bt?
<Old_Soldier> beginner team
<Old_Soldier> from the forums. a bunch have joined the doc team and wiki teams and have been working pretty hard
<duncan-nz> The biggest help would be a default new page template with some useful comments on. We can only point people in the right direction.
<duncan-nz> do they have a project page or something similar?
<Old_Soldier> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development
<Old_Soldier> is where we have been staging our efforts
<duncan-nz> why the control "Here is where you can "lay claim" to wiki pages that you want to update or rewrite. Claimed pages will not be touched by other BT members unless the owner gives permission (say, in IRC)."
<duncan-nz> would wikipedia have worked with that?
<duncan-nz> sorry
<Old_Soldier> duncan it saves  duplicated effort among the team. its an efficiency thing
<duncan-nz> sure, but why a list and no mention on the actual page concerned?
<duncan-nz> just a thought, that's why I've started adding a heading at the end for 'page maintainers'
<duncan-nz> that's got me in touch with others who just happen by and want to do something on that page.
<duncan-nz> an inclusive system instead of a membership based system if you will
<Old_Soldier> mostly the pages we are fixing are existing pages.
<Old_Soldier> page maintainers are great... if the actually maintain the page
<Old_Soldier> they
<duncan-nz> if not they'll soon get tired of being asked about the page...
<duncan-nz> ... and remove their name
<Old_Soldier> we try to be informal and not give the impression of being elitists lol
<Old_Soldier> I guess thats a habit from working the forums
<duncan-nz> so change it to = Loving this page = and then their WikiNames...
<duncan-nz> I've made these headers: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Software/ProjectHome#Page%20banners
<duncan-nz> maybe there's something useful in that idea?
<Old_Soldier> mostly we are trying to work within the existing framework and not ruffle feathers. accomplishing change in an established organization is sometimes a long process
<duncan-nz> nothing original, the idea is direct from Wikipedia.
<Old_Soldier> hmm i think phil has some banners somewhere too. i remember a discussion on them last month
<duncan-nz> have you not noticed how few people are actually subscribed to the pages you work on? It's easy to see which pages are being maintained and which are unloved.
<Old_Soldier> problem being duncan-nz  is that people would rather reinvent the wheel instead of fixing a page. That and there are a lot of "one hit wonders"
<duncan-nz> can you be more specific?
<Old_Soldier> there has been so little long term maintenance on the wiki due to manpower shortages.
<duncan-nz> Like that. Ok
<Old_Soldier> lots of people just toss up a page without even checking to see if there is a page up on the topic
<duncan-nz> not least because there is no structure to find out if ther is a page on that subject!
<duncan-nz> ... that's what I'm on about.
<duncan-nz> and I don't know why we're using MoinMoin...
<Old_Soldier> i think moin isn't necessarily the best tool but its what we have
<Old_Soldier> yeah duncan, i'm with you. Moin isn't as well developed as other wikis and that doesn't help when people are trying to add pages
<Old_Soldier> honestly i'm on the fence, i'm almost at a point where i think that posting should be restricted. I know that defeats the whole purpose of community docs, but a temporary ban on posting by the general public would be good if we had a plan to fix the issues and were dedicated to implement the changes
<duncan-nz> Surely the devs can implement a default template which includes help. And we need to write a macro which makes a list of new pages.
<Old_Soldier> +1 for macros
<Old_Soldier> and a default template for new pages would help. i think there are a couple templates out there already, but they aren't easily found
<duncan-nz> they're not applied by default.
<duncan-nz> see CategoryTemplate
<Old_Soldier> i can kind of nderstand why they arent applied by default but starting a new page should be able to give you a choice of templates? well perhaps that hack would be inelegant or even not possible
<Old_Soldier> perhaps a default page should have a link to the templares and intructions to copy and paste. approved tempaltes could be stored as imuttable pages
<duncan-nz> I always get presented with a choice of templates, but the templates are not very relevant.
<duncan-nz> do you know how to suppress wikimarkup?
<Old_Soldier> no duncan i don't recall offhand how to do it, and a cursory search isn't helping. i'll google it
<duncan-nz> found it `code to suppress`
<duncan-nz> was not easy to find. That was my third attempt.
<Old_Soldier> ah
<Old_Soldier> yeah the search isnt that great in moinmoin
<agy> Hello All - I need to perform some maintenance on the help.ubuntu.com wiki. This should only take about 15 minutes and the wiki will be placed in read-only mode for this period. The maintenance should modify any pages with doubled up 'Contents' headers in the Table of Contents and should clean up some of the code blocks to render correctly. I plan to start at 18h10 BST.
<agy> I'm placing the help.ubuntu.com wiki in read-only mode now.
<agy> Maintenance is complete - wiki is now read-write
<sahil_> i was just wondering what the progress on the spanish desktop guide is
<duncan-nz> have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareRepoDefault and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Software while I break for dinner... please review and comment.
<wallan1> duncan-nz: ping
<duncan-nz> hi allan
<duncan-nz> I've been busy...
<wallan1> hey duncan! i can see!
<wallan1> so you've removed the applications page?
<duncan-nz> well, emptied it. All the http://help.ubuntu.com/ and local docs use the term 'software'.
<duncan-nz> and moved the alphabetic list of software to it's own page to make huc/community/Software free
<duncan-nz> it has a link doesn't it?
<wallan1> what, the alphabetical list?
<wallan1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareAlphabeticIndex
<duncan-nz> yes
<duncan-nz> it was on the [[Software]] page
<wallan1> yeah
<wallan1> what's happened to the old sound & video page?
<duncan-nz> be blunt if you disagree with something I've done. It's quicker than trying to say it nicely.
<wallan1> i'm just trying to get my head around it ;)
<wallan1> i haven't made my mind up, to be honest
<duncan-nz> don't know. I'll look...
<wallan1> there are definitely things i would like to rephrase, but that's just a matter of detail
<duncan-nz> try this: Software > Browse by menu entry > Applications > Sound & Video
<wallan1> but wasn't there a lot more material on the sound & video page?
<duncan-nz> Feel free to change the phrasing where you want.
<duncan-nz> Sorry, but I don't remember. There's another Sound & Video page, wait a mo...
<wallan1> sure, i just want to make my mind up about structural issues first
<duncan-nz> you mean this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultimediaApplications
<wallan1> yes!
<wallan1> does that have a place in the new schema?
<duncan-nz> hey, there was a link to that page you were looking for in the Introduction of the sound and video page!
<duncan-nz> It's currently under 'See also' as well.
<wallan1> cool - that page has a lot of good material on it
<duncan-nz> yes
<wallan1> duncan-nz: i'
<duncan-nz> hi
<wallan1> sorry about that! i was just writing that i'll have a hack at some of this, if that's ok
<duncan-nz> sure.
<duncan-nz> A hack at what?
<wallan1> i like some of the changes... not so keen on others though
<duncan-nz> of right. go for it.
<duncan-nz> well, I'm off to bed soon anyway... !
<duncan-nz> which changes don't you like?
<wallan1> i'm not keen on browsing by repository
<duncan-nz> let me know as you clarify what it is you dislike about them
<duncan-nz> ...neither am I. But using categories it's not hard to do.
<wallan1> a section on default applications, yes, but i don't think it's a good idea to differentiate between universe and multiverse
<wallan1> also, 'software' is awefully vague as a heading
<wallan1> the whole of ubuntu is software!
<wallan1> to me, it doesn't really mean anything
<duncan-nz> well, I didn't choose the word. Ubuntu-doc did.
<duncan-nz> ... and the documentation is for the whole of ubuntu...
<wallan1> but they don't use it as a heading - they use it within specific sentences where it has meaning
<wallan1> and they do use applications as well
<duncan-nz> can you give me an example?
<wallan1> most of the official documentation pages use the word applications
<wallan1> what does a link called software say? what's the idea that it's communicating? software is a generic term, whereas application refers to discrete pieces of software with their own identities
<wallan1> i know when i've used these pages in the past, the applications link has always been the one that's jumped out
<duncan-nz> a.) https://help.ubuntu.com/ has "Adding and Removing Software"
<duncan-nz> b.) ... which has "Add/Remove Applications" ...
<duncan-nz> and "Installing packages without an Internet connection"
<duncan-nz> and Synaptic Package Manager...
<duncan-nz> So as far as I can see there is no clean answer that I can see.
<duncan-nz> The terminology is a mess.
<duncan-nz> but that not today's probelm in my mind.
<wallan1> of course, it's all about the semantics - but it's not about what we think, it's about the words that will be meaningful to the users of the wiki
<duncan-nz> You're very welcome to to find a pattern we can apply, I'd be happy to apply it.
<wallan1> applications: https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/internet/C/index.html, https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/musicvideophotos/C/index.html
<duncan-nz> and _we_ know what software _and_ application means. Auntie Martha has only ever heard of these two things called 'Software' and 'Hardware'
<duncan-nz> I'm not disagreeing with you allan. I'm just saying that I don't have the enrgy to try and find a symantic pattern to apply which lees experienced users will understand. If someone else will I'll be happy to help apply it.
<duncan-nz> wallan1, that's me for tonight. I'll get a flood of emails on what you've changed when I get on in the morning.
<duncan-nz> Nice working with you my friend. Good to work with people who do as much as they talk.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-25
<Rocket2DMn> ok, this page has been on CategoryCleanup for 3 years - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootHotPlugErrors
<Rocket2DMn> should we just mark it for deletion and be done with it?
<Flannel> Gah.  Now IDs have really gotten unweildy.  I liked them better as UUIDs
<jamiejackson> hi folks. as i suppose you know. launchpad and wiki logins were merged. on wiki i used to be JamieJackson. on launchpad i was/am Jamie Jackson. after the merge, I'm "myspamb8" on the wiki. can i get that changed?
<technomensch> hola....
<technomensch> how is everyone?
<technomensch> can anyone here take a look at the following and let me know if they have any issues?  I made a few modifications to help newbies (such as myself out) getting started:
<technomensch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
<technomensch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup
<technomensch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryDeletion
<technomensch> and does anyone know when the next docsteam meeting is?
<duncan-nz> technomensch, guten abend. Nice work.
<technomensch> thanks.
<technomensch> organization and making it user-friendly is one of my specialties.
<technomensch> what time is the meeting today?
<duncan-nz> have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo now
<duncan-nz> I've just added some things
<duncan-nz> Will you please add your WikiName at the bottom? And maybe you'd like to open the 'Discuss this page' page?
<duncan-nz> the meeting? no idea.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-07-26
<technomensch> better
<technomensch> good idea
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-20
<Saj0577> Any pages in particular that you know i could help with (wiki pages)? (i not done many before but looking to join the wiki team eventually)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-21
<slacker_nl> can someone give comments on this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
<slacker_nl> i realize it is not up to standards, but if someone reads it and gives comments/check for typo's errors or other things I might have overlooked it would be much appreciated
<Flannel> Why not just link to the appropriate other pages?
<rww> Flannel: you mean like the "(for link see the See also section)" bit? I was wondering that too.
<Flannel> Well, we have pages from Breezy on which are up-to-date (or at the very least, mostly up to date and can certainly be made up to date)
<Flannel> that is, the upgrade from Breezy to Dapper.  BreezyUpgradeNotes is on wiki.ubuntu.com, and hasn't really been taken care of.
<Flannel> As far as your instructions, I'd stay away from sed/perl statements, and show them the sources.list they should have when switching to old-releases and stuff.
<Flannel> Your sed lines won't work for some configurations, like if they've totally broken them, or are using other mirrors (well, were)
<Flannel> and also, you never mention ensuring proper metapackages are installed
 * Flannel is sure thats not exhaustive, but its a good start.
<slacker_nl> which metapackages? the update-manager packages need to be installed, which is mentioned several times
<Flannel> update-manager didn't exist for pre-dapper upgrades
<Flannel> well, insofar as taking care of upgrades.
<slacker_nl> yes, that's done via dist-upgrade
<Flannel> a kernel metapackage (such as linux-686 or linux-686-smp, etc), ubuntu-standard, ubuntu-minimal, and an appropriate -desktop (ubuntu-desktop)
<slacker_nl> Flannel: that will be installed by any default ubuntu release
<Flannel> right, but dist-upgrade won't work without the proper metapackages
<slacker_nl> ubuntu-standard is installed on a cli install iirc
<Flannel> slacker_nl: You can't assume that they're not going to still be installed though.
<Flannel> While I admit -standard and -minimal likely won't be removed, -desktop and kernel metapackages do.
<slacker_nl> desktop packages are not needed to upgrade (at least, my server installations don't need them and you don't need them to upgrade)
<Flannel> slacker_nl: Correct, but they're needed for a successful desktop upgrade.
<slacker_nl> i will add the kernel packages
<slacker_nl> Flannel: will have to test that
<rww> slacker_nl: metapackages being installed or not is one of those things that's not absolutely necessary (and stuff will sometimes work without them), but it's a really good idea and averts a bunch of possible problems.
<Flannel> any new programs, or things we've changed, generally get done via -desktop
<Flannel> It won't cause the upgrade to fail, but if the point of upgrading is "get the same as I would have with a reinstall" then without the proper metapackages, that won't succeed.
<slacker_nl> rww: true, however, very easy to fix by aptitude install $rel-desktop package
<Flannel> slacker_nl: Which is exactly what I said should be included in the instructions
<slacker_nl> ahh, I see what you mean, if a new package got added by -desktop (which was not in the previous release) it would not be installed if the meta package did not exist
<Flannel> but again, for everything after hoary to breezy, why not just link to the current upgrade notes?
<slacker_nl> 6.10 to 8.04 is not documented (properly) at the wiki's
<slacker_nl> that is the reason why i started that guide ;)
<Flannel> 6.10 to 8.04 isn't supported, that's why.
<Flannel> To go to 6.10 to 8.04, you have to go 6.10 to 7.04 to 7.10 to 8.04
<slacker_nl> i know, that's why i started the EOLupgrades
<slacker_nl> yes
<slacker_nl> very easy btw
<slacker_nl> i've done it half a year ago
<Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades?action=recall&rev=60
<Flannel> They're all there... juts been removed for some stupid reason.
<rww> ah! I knew I'd seen those instructions somewhere. I went looking for them the other day and couldn't find them :(
<Flannel> slacker_nl: Perhaps you should just move that page to EOLUpgrades/Feisty or something
<Flannel> and then link to it
<Flannel> (likewise for the others)
<Flannel> that'd make it much easier to handle in the future... move page from /*Upgrades to /EOLUpgrades/*Upgrades
<slacker_nl> Flannel: could do that
<Flannel> It doesn't really need to be moved I suppose.
<Flannel> But, it might keep people from deleting it
<slacker_nl> Feisty is redirected to eol upgrades, found out myself 3 days ago
<Flannel> right, you can revert it though
<Flannel> Keeping each upgrade separate is good though, a monolithic page will get confusing, and its less easy to link directly to where you want to put someone.
<slacker_nl> Flannel: don't know why he did it, thought he was someone special
<slacker_nl> so didn't bother with it
<enhickman> I believe there is spam on your wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/SpellingPunctuationGrammar search for "FANBOYS"? if its not spam it makes the sentence very confusing.
<rww> enhickman: It's meant as a mnemonic: if you take the first letter of each of the listed conjunctions, you get that word. It is confusing, though.
<enhickman> Ah thanks I get it now.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-23
<Joshh100> hey all
<Joshh100> Id love to get involved with the documentation effort for Ubuntu
<Saj0577> hey Josh100
<Saj0577> hey Joshh100
<Saj0577> the wikis or the system docs?
<Joshh100> whats more fun?
<Joshh100> I like writing a lot.. Im just not too much of a programmer
<Joshh100> but Id like to contribute
<Saj0577> Well anyone can contribute to the wiki. which is at wiki.ubuntu.com and the system files are the ones when you go System/Help and support ( ithink thats the right process,i dont use ubuntu menu so it may be different)
<Joshh100> I see
<Joshh100> which do you contribute to?
<Saj0577> The Wiki
<Flannel> wiki.ubuntu.com is for team wiki stuff, help.ubuntu.com/community/ is for documentation type things.
<newz2000> Hi, is there a printable installation guide?
<Saj0577> for ubuntu desktop?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-24
<Matt_91> ciao, volevo segnalare una cosetta molto utile, a vantaggio di chi si trova costretto a installare pacchetti che non sono per la sua distribuzione in generale(es 32bit su 64bit o viceversa oppure .rpm) in modo credo sicuro con risultato ottimo.
<Matt_91> c'Ã¨ qualcuno che si offre a scrivere la guida nel wiki??
<Matt_91> Io ho scritto nel forum: http://forum.ubuntu-it.org/index.php/topic,305728.msg2274185.html
<ace_suares> vcan i join the docteam ?
<Denis> anyone at wiki.ubuntu.com here? we're being spammed with links as eg "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnInstalling/hu?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=100 indian airlines schedule "
<Denis> some concern here that trojans may have been uploaded to your wiki server and are being sent out as linkspam
<Denis> my ubuntu / firefox refuses to download, but I'm not even going to try firing up a windows machine and testing with explorer
<Flannel> yeah, its a virus
<Denis> thought it might be
<Denis> there's about 30 or 40 of them
<Denis> I'm guessing someone found a way to park their virii on the ubuntu wiki and is now linkspamming elsewhere
<Denis> just looked again, we got links numbered from target=100 to target=149
<Denis> so 50 virii files at a guess
<Flannel> That page has them starting from 1
<Denis> are you a web admin at ubunbtu.com? because really we need one to get those files taken down asap
<Denis> otherwise I guess email to webmaster@ubuntu.com
<Flannel> Send an email, I'll delete them, but an email is probably a good idea too.  Maybe they can keep an eye out for random bunches of uploads in the future
<Denis> thanks, sent
<dsas> I  think this issue has been flagged before. Not sure what came of it besides deleting them
<Denis> dsas, my first concern was to try and get hold of someone who could delete them as fast as possible, protecting against future incursions would be good but deleting the files is more important
#ubuntu-doc 2009-07-25
<mdke_> newz2000: the team is working on an installation guide for the desktop version during this release cycle. There is an installation guide for the alternate version but currently for the desktop version you need to rely on the wiki (details of both at https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/installation-guide/index.html)
<ace_suares> wiki is so slow...
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-28
<Mr-Ink> about the footer, I can see that the link 'Powered By the MoinMoin Wiki Engine' is broken -> should it point to -> http://www.wikiwikiweb.de/MoinMoin
<Mr-Ink> would that be the correct link ?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-29
<mkarnicki> Hi guys. Could you please verify that wiki.ubuntu.com is accessible via an Android phone?
<mkarnicki> Since http redirects to https on wiki.ubuntu.com
<mkarnicki> there's some sort of certificate problem.
<mkarnicki> :(
<mkarnicki> Hi guys. Have you checked an issue I reported yesterday/early today? wiki.ubuntu.com is *not* available from Android phones, there's a certificate problem.
<mkarnicki> And since http redirects to https automatically, there's no way to view a wiki site from an Android powered device.
<mkarnicki> If anybody notices what I just wrote, it'd be nice to know if it's at least the proper place to report that problem.
<mkarnicki> How can I make a wiki header a anchor? As a workaround, I put the anchor just above it ;d , see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndroidU1/changelog
<zkriesse> mkarnicki: What do you mean?
<mkarnicki> zkriesse: phone call brb
<mkarnicki> zkriesse: hey, sorry, had a phone call
<zkriesse> It's cool
<mkarnicki> say, I have a header
<zkriesse> no biggie as real life comes first
<mkarnicki> == 0.2.14pa1 ==
<zkriesse> Ok...
<mkarnicki> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndroidU1/changelog#0.2.14pa1
<mkarnicki> and I'd like to refer to that 'section', header, whatever u call it, with such link
<mkarnicki> notice how I workaround it with a dot which is an anchor
<zkriesse> Ok
<mkarnicki> that #0.2.14pa1 from the url directs to it ;)
<zkriesse> Ok and?
<mkarnicki> but when I put [[#something]] in the header, it is
<mkarnicki> transcribed literraly, without an anchor, into the header
<mkarnicki> so, my question is,
<mkarnicki> is there an easy way to direct with a single link to a
<mkarnicki> particular header?
<zkriesse> Yeah use the link
<zkriesse> Or refer to the section
<zkriesse> Mind if i edit?
<mkarnicki> sure! :)
<mkarnicki> I'll be glad to see that
<zkriesse> Ok
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-30
<mkarnicki> zkriesse: hi again :D (didn't have time to change the changelog site, sorry!)
<mkarnicki> zkriesse: How do I embed a picture from external link source on a wiki page?
<mkarnicki> something like <img src="foobar.png" />
<mkarnicki> found it, {{http://example.net/image.png}}
<mkarnicki> great :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndroidU1/screenshots
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-31
<shpongle> is this the right channel for asking about wiki stuff? in a technical way?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-26
<dpm> hey mdke, are you around?
<dpm> oh, sorry, now it's me who has to go. I'll be back in ~1h
<dtchen> mdke: ping, have you tested your proposed change as per the "firefox-homepage update-alternative" email?
<dtchen> mdke: I have not, but your proposal is sane.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-28
<head_victim> Is there one clear "official" ubuntu manual?
<head_victim> I am trying to find a consolidated piece to point excitable people towards contributing to but I can only find a plethora of independent manuals that are all trying to achieve the same thing.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-29
<Captainkrtek> head_victim, ubuntu-manual.org
<head_victim> Captainkrtek: cool just checking, that one was the most official looking one.
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I work on it
<Captainkrtek> it's a great guide
<head_victim> I wasn't sure if it was that or ubuntuguide
<sagaci> head_victim, kinda different things, ubuntuguide seems to be the most complete on anything you'd ever want to do whereas manual is a little easier to actually read to flick through for newer ubuntu users. my 2c
<head_victim> sagaci: ah k, I've never used anything but google myself so wasn't sure about them all.
<sagaci> besides, ubuntuguide relies on using terminal commands to achieve goals, whereas the manual seems to use more screenshots and more explanation for entry users. Depends what your target audience is, I guess
<head_victim> sagaci: nice to know.
<czajkowski> stupid not being able to sleep grrrr
<benonsoftware1> I'm looking to do doc jam for my LoCo team, what things should I cover?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-07-31
<bkerensa> Any Doc Contributors around?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-07-27
<jrwren> must be a quiet time of the cycle.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-23
<Taggg> hello, if I've found a wiki page that duplicates a page from developer.ubuntu.com, what's the right way to suggest it's removal?
<Taggg> should i just delete it?
<pleia2> Taggg: on wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com?
<Taggg> pleia2: wiki, but it looks like i can just set up a refresh, does that sound like the right thing to do?
<pleia2> Taggg: that's probably a better idea than deleting it :) (redirect will preserve history in case someone needs to revert it)
<Taggg> pleia2: yup, sounds good :)
<pleia2> Taggg: thanks for the sharp eyes!
<pleia2> I think they've been trying to clean up the developer stuff that's duplicated, but not sure if they ever finished their review
#ubuntu-doc 2013-07-25
<knome> hello! anybody around for some questions about documentation packaging and translations, or pointers to other places...? :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-22
<pmatulis> belkinsa: ping
<pmatulis> belkinsa: i see this from last meeting: "<belkinsa> #action belkinsa pmatulis godbyk organize sub-team meetings for each month or so"
<pmatulis> belkinsa: has anything been done?  i'd like to rev up the next docs meeting
<belkinsa> pmatulis, nothing has been done though I made a call for the suggestion but no one replied to it.
<belkinsa> pmatulis, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-July/018994.html was the message
<pmatulis> belkinsa: 3 separate meetings for Desktop, Server, and Wiki then right?  the Ubuntu Manual will be with Desktop?
<belkinsa> It can, but I feel like no one really wants to do anything or time is an big issue.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: let's not change anything then.  it could be that the past 2 meetings were long because we just started to have meeting again and people had a lot of bottled up frustration/ideas
<belkinsa> I think so.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: at least we can bring up the idea again next meeting.  with specifics this time
<belkinsa> Sure.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: it would be hard to have to schedule 3 meetings a month
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<pmatulis> i think there are benefits of having all monkeys in the barrel
<pmatulis> i'll reply to your post
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<belkinsa> We need to start that thread up again.
<pleia2> the main issue I saw at the last meeting (aside from length) is that everyone kept getting confused about what we were talking about
<belkinsa> Yeah, that too.
<belkinsa> It's my fault for that.
<pleia2> so even if we don't have separate meetings, perhaps during the meeting clear indicators of whether we're talking about wiki, server or desktop would be helpful
<pleia2> because the rules/considerations/discussion is very different based on which :)
<belkinsa> Oh.
 * belkinsa faceplams
<pleia2> this confusion is what caused phill to quit and get all crazy on us, we were talking about desktop docs and he thought we were kicking lubuntu off the wiki
<pmatulis> so according to our current planning, the next meeting will be held Aug 6 right?  first Wed of the month?
<belkinsa> Right.
<pmatulis> pleia2: he was talking about the wiki?
<pleia2> pmatulis: yeah, lubuntu doesnt *have* built docs like xubuntu and kubuntu do
<pmatulis> wow ok, the wiki
<belkinsa> Is there a reason why Lubuntu don't have offical docs, pleia2?
<pmatulis> no wonder i was confused
<pleia2> belkinsa: young project, mostly just depend upon lxde documentation and documentation they put on the wiki (easier to write, more accessible for newcomers)
<belkinsa> I see.
<belkinsa> pmatulis, got the e-mail.
<belkinsa> I got*
<pmatulis> great
<pmatulis> belkinsa: i edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda .  how does the read meeting banner get updated and how does one check the availability of #ubuntu-meeting or #ubuntu-meeting-2 ?
<pmatulis> belkinsa: the wiki item, we'll need to invite those admins, didn't we try that already?
<pmatulis> s/read/red
<pleia2> pmatulis: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingBanner
<pleia2> and you just look at the fridge calendar re: availability https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingBanner
<pleia2> err
<pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<pmatulis> the fridge, interesting
<pleia2> it's a convinent place to stash things like this :)
<pmatulis> cool! i added the fridge calendar to my google calendar
<pmatulis> belkinsa: i've set up the doc team meeting as a reocurring event (wiki meeting page and the ubuntu calendar)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-23
<belkinsa> pmatulis, thanks and re the wiki admins team: I think I want to do that for the next meeting after Aug's meeting.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: alright, so let's remove it
<belkinsa> On it.
<belkinsa> pmatulis, done.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: got the email, thx
<belkinsa> Not a problem, anything else?
<pmatulis> belkinsa: nope.  i'll also be updating the agenda soon as well as sending out a reminder email about next meeting
<belkinsa> Okay, and thanks for sending out a reminder (when you do it).
<pmatulis> belkinsa: done
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I saw.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-07-24
<belkinsa_> Hey pmatulis, do you think that the Doc team needs some Canonical support/help in resource management?
<pmatulis> belkinsa_: not sure what you mean.  are you saying we shouldn't accept help with the web site?
<belkinsa_> No, we need help on the web site but also writing some of the docs like you said in the e-mail.
<belkinsa_> Er, desktop docs too along with cloud docs
<pmatulis> the idea is to begin with cloud topics.  if it is extended beyond that it will probably be the Server Guide
<belkinsa_> Ah, I see.
<belkinsa_> I like that idea.
<belkinsa_> Anyways, do you know the other Open Source companies and distro's do their docs?  Are they mostly community ran or company ran?
<pmatulis> sec belkinsa_
<pmatulis> most distros maintain user wikis.  red hat had a decent public knowledgebase but it has been privatized iirc
<belkinsa_> Ah, I see.  And duh, it's Open Source.
<belkinsa_> But do you know out of all, who is the best at resourse managment.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: i'm not sure why you're using the terms 'resource management'.  we're talking about documentation.  but i would say gentoo has good documentation because the nature of their distro is to do things manually so all the moving parts are exposed
<pmatulis> https://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/
<belkinsa> pmatulis, well, I was thinking back to our last meeting and how we have issues with it.
<belkinsa> I guess I might be trying to understand our issues and how to deal/solve them.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: resource management is trying to make the best use of our resources, which is people.  IMO, having a small group of people working on 3 different projects (docs, manual, wiki) is not a good example of that
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<belkinsa> Okay, I think, I'm making it worse on me.
<belkinsa> Maybe I need to have a long chat on IRC with and maybe others over this (outside the meetings).
<pmatulis> sure, lemme know if i can help
<belkinsa> Sure thing.  Maybe later today, I will ask.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-07-25
<Shiseiji> FYI. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions doesn't apply to 16.04  Personally I can't get past black screen and blinker. At "boot:" entering "e" takes me right back to the two icon screen. None of the [F6] options make any difference.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-07-31
<zoombie777> anyone know if it's true that Google coders use Ubuntu desktops?
<zoombie777> I've Ubuntu and Mac... in varying degrees
<zoombie777> "heard"
#ubuntu-doc 2017-07-26
<bluefoxxxx> Hey so https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization lists an x86 and AMD64 uefi hybrid image command to produce the CD image
<bluefoxxxx> the produced image boots UEFI in VirtualBox
<bluefoxxxx> it DOESN'T boot in VMware, but the actual Ubuntu release image does.  what do I do?
<bluefoxxxx> ok, had to change the order of commands to something different than what's on the documentation
<bluefoxxxx> will look at this later and report
#ubuntu-doc 2020-07-21
<jshipp> hi.  I'm interested in helping with the Ubuntu community wiki.
<jshipp> I joined the Ubuntu Wiki Editors team, but when I try to edit pages, it says I don't have permission.
<jshipp> What do I need to do?
