#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-06
<SCSI> HOLA
<chaKKo_1521> http://www.pennergame.de/ref.php?uid=1521
<mdz> agoliveira: good day
<agoliveira> mdz: Good day, Matt.
<mdz> agoliveira: thanks for getting the daily build sorted
<mdz> I tried it out on the Q1 ultra today
<agoliveira> My pleasure.
<mdz> one can't get very far with it, though
<agoliveira> Geez... :(
<mdz> there's no way to launch applications, and while it provides instructions for installing the flash plugin, they rely on a terminal
<mdz> and I see no way to launch a terminal
<mdz> is it working better than that for you?
<agoliveira> I should be able to look more closely in the device. Today Sulamita asked for some information so I guess my Q1 should be arriving soon. In the chroot it works better but I have to mnanually install the flash plugin too.
<agoliveira> It is in my TODO to talk about those issues with Rusty today.
<mdz> agoliveira: you are building the chroot locally, yes?
<mdz> agoliveira: have you tried using the autobuilt image?
<agoliveira> mdz: Yes, I am.
<agoliveira> No.
<agoliveira> But should be no differente but the kernel. But I can give it a sot, of course.
<mdz> agoliveira: ok, I really need for you to use that as the basis for your testing, because that is what the rest of the world sees.  if it works well in your chroot, but it doesn't work in the build, then it's not working yet
<agoliveira> mdz: Understood.
<mdz> it should be possible to get it working in an emulator.  we've been waiting too long for the Q1 and are short on time
<mdz> agoliveira: is there anything I can do to help you to get a device more quickly?
<agoliveira> mdz: No problem, I'll try that.
<mdz> I would be happy to buy you one if you could source it locally
<agoliveira> mdz: I wish but as far as I know, this is internal to Intell and now to customs.
<mdz> agoliveira: is it possible to order one online and have it shipped to Brazil from elsewhere?
<agoliveira> mdz: I guess so but I also believe that would be almost the same with customs and all.
<agoliveira> Believe me. Customs here a a real PITA.
<mdz> if you fly to London, I will give you one to take back with you :-/
<agoliveira> Even small stuff like DVDs I buy from Amazon, for instance, sometimes stays there 2, 3 weeks.
<agoliveira> mdz: I should have taken my chances last time...
<agoliveira> Unfortunately, I tought that for a company like Intel should be easier to overcome this kind of problem.
<agoliveira> mdz: BTW: I have a question. Did you have any success with thaty first batch of resumes Jo sent?
<mdz> agoliveira: this is a public channel
<agoliveira> rusty_: Hi Rusty. Can you give me an update on how the images are running on the Q1 device? Unfurtunately, I'm still wating for mine so I can't try myself.
<rusty_> what kind of update?
<agoliveira> I mean, are they running ok, is there any outstanding problem?
<agoliveira> I'm talking about the images we are creating daily.
<rusty_> as of Friday the answer was yes, and i need to run a clean test this morning to see if anything has popped up
<rusty_> sorry
<rusty_> just realized what you meant.... i gave up attempting to download the image last friday after it failed mid-way through on a couple of attempts
<rusty_> let me try again with the latest image out of the oven
<agoliveira> No problem. What image are you using exactly.
<agoliveira> ?
<rusty_> the full q1
<rusty_> what was that URL again?
<agoliveira> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull/20070806/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull_install-usb.img
<agoliveira> That one?
<rusty_> thx
<agoliveira> I'm asking because Matt have being finding some strange problems like, can't start any application and can't install the flash plugin as it relies on a terminal but he can't find a way to lauch one.
<rusty_> do you know which fset the build is installing? 
<agoliveira> rusty_: Not from the top of my head, I have to check the script
<agoliveira> PLATFORMS=( mccaslin menlow )
<agoliveira> TARGETS_mccaslin=( samsungq1ultracore samsungq1ultrafull )
<agoliveira> FSETS_mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull=( samsung-full-mobile-stack )
<agoliveira> FSETS_mccaslin_samsungq1ultracore=( samsung-q1-ultra-config )
<agoliveira> TARGETS_menlow=( core full )
<agoliveira> FSETS_mccaslin_core=( samsung-full-mobile-stack )
<agoliveira> FSETS_mccaslin_full=( samsung-q1-ultra-config )
<agoliveira> rusty_: That's what's on the script.
<agoliveira> BRB -> 10 min.
<rusty_> if we installed the samsung-full-mobile-stack-proprietary then the flash plug-in would be installed... but maybe that's an issue
<agoliveira> rusty_: Yeah, I don't think that we can do that. What about not being able to open the terminal and install flash yourself?
* agoliveira just discovers that vmware and gutsy as host are not a good combination :(
<stgraber> agoliveira: vmnet issue ?
<agoliveira> stgreber: yes - /tmp/vmware-config0/vmnet-only/userif.c: In function VNetCopyDatagramToUser:
<agoliveira> I'm checking out.
<stgraber> agoliveira: http://npw.net/~phbaer/vmnet.tar I used this one an hour ago and it works fine
<agoliveira> stgraber: I'll try, thanks
<agoliveira> stgraber: Yep. It seems to do the trick. Thanks.
<stgraber> np, it'd be really good if vmware could provide those patches themselves :)
<rusty_> agoliveira, you should be able to open a terminal via the drop down menu in the upper left corner, but let me what what happens in this image.... it's still downloading
<agoliveira> rusty_: It worked with me like this when I built the image locally. I'll also try the image here.
<agoliveira> rusty_: Those images we're being creating are for USB boot right?
<rusty_> agoliveira, yes, you have to dd it to the device
<rusty_> BTW, still downloading my image
<agoliveira> rusty_: Yes, I did that and just discovered that vmware can't boot from USB :(
<rusty_> agoliveira, i'm running the UME image now
<agoliveira> rusty_: In the Q1 itself? How's going?
<rusty_> pretty crappy
<agoliveira> Ouch... :(
<rusty_> i'm not sure what's happening here... but it's pretty messed up 
<agoliveira> Like...?
<rusty_> agoliveira, all kinds of things.... let me get a handle on this
<agoliveira> rusty_: Sure
<rusty_> agoliveira, ok, i see what's happening.... you guys are removing the apt configuration entry for moblin, and there are various packages that need new versions uploaded to gutsy
<rusty_> agoliveira, so lots of little things all over the place
<agoliveira> rusty_: Are we?
<agoliveira> rusty_: Ok so let fix that. Are the apt configurations you're talking about into the fsets?
<rusty_> agoliveira, yes... you can see this by noticing that the /etc/apt/sources.list.d/build.list is missing
<rusty_> agoliveira, well... i bet that Tolleff is doing this on purpose
<rusty_> so the proper way to fix this is to find what packages need newer versions uploaded
<agoliveira> rusty_: Well, I can understand that but it's a nice way to get things broken...
<rusty_> agoliveira, however you want to proceed... do you have the ability to adjust the image creation script?
<rusty_> or... maybe this is in the moblin-image-creator that was pushed into gutsy
<rusty_> i never tried using it
<rusty_> agoliveira, i have to go
<agoliveira> No, I don't. But I can ask someone
<rusty_> i bet it's a change in the image-creator checked into gutsy
<rusty_> ok, be back in a couple of hours
<agoliveira> rusty_: I'll be leaving in 1 hour or so but email me and I'll see that asap.
<agoliveira> seb128: Hi. You are just the guy I wanted to talk to :)
<seb128> hey agoliveira
<agoliveira> seb128: I wonder if you can help. Do you have access to whatever the script that creates the mobile images (run-moblin-image-creator) is?
<seb128> better to ask cjwatson, I don't know where those scripts are and what they are doing
<agoliveira> seb128: Sure. Thanks anyway.
<seb128> no problem
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-07
<bicchi> I am thinking of getting a Samsung q1 ultra. What works and does not working from gutsy? I really do not want to waste 1000.00 bucks and have to install windows on top of it.
<bicchi> or perhaps someone can advise on the one that works the best with ubuntu.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Good morning! Had a good time riding?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: yes, it was great, thanks.
<agoliveira> Cool. I would like to ask you if you have any idea what we can do to better wync our repository with Intel's code. We are having problems with the iamges generated not working well and, according to Rusty, this happens because our packages are outdated.
<agoliveira> s/wync/sync
<agoliveira> s/iamges/images - looks like I'm a bit dyslexic this morning :)
<Mithrandir> in general, I try to upload them fairly often and I have asked Intel to tell me if there's anything in particular they want shoved in "right now".
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes I know but looks like we are still having problems in this area as the images generated are pretty broken for what we have seen. I was told by Matt to investigate this as he have being trying to use the images generated without much sucess. What do you think if we talk to the intel guys later and try to stablish some sort of "scheduled" syncs like, only sync in batches when the resulting image will not break badly o
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you broke off after "break badly"
<agoliveira> ... or something like that?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira_brb: to what degree have you gotten your hildonising patches accepted upstream?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I didn't do any of that kind. I just started the process of hildonizing.
<guardian> whtat's the input method framework for ubuntu mobile ? hildon ? scim ? uim ? other ?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I was about to start with Claws but I was contacted by a Intel developer who has already started so I let him continue and I'm going for Pimlico now.
<Mithrandir> pimlico is mostly hildonised already, though.  You should really start by getting in touch with upstream first to avoid duplication of work.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I know about Pimlico's status. I'm talking about to create the appropriate compilation and packaging flags so we can have a ume package with our version of hildon as interface.
<Mithrandir> sure, but make sure to push that upstream as well, since pimlico upstream happens to be the people maintaining it in Debian as well, and keeping the delta small is good.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure. I'm aware of that.
<mdz> Mithrandir: mobile-player is installed, but doesn't run yet...looks like we need python-hildondesktop in gutsy?
<Mithrandir> hm, does it crash for you?  IIRC, it starts for me, but it's mostly just a framework at this point.
<mdz> Mithrandir: ImportError: No module named hildon
<Mithrandir> ok, then it's needed. :-)
<mdz> Mithrandir: I see it in bzr; has it been uploaded yet?
<Mithrandir> doesn't look like it.
<mdz> the browser seems to work fine if started from the command line, but the button in the flash UI does nothing
<amitk__> Mithrandir, agoliveira_lunch: Are there plans to still stick with UME flavour for i386? Or switch to lpia arch ASAP?
<amitk__> robr_, CharliefJohnson, jacob-laptop: ^^^^^^
<Mithrandir> amitk__: unsure, mail the list?
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: hi
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: hi
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: what is the difference in lpia and ume in those kernel configs?
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: Currently lpia arch just copied some config file (don't know which). But the ume Kconfig will be copied to lpia once I get around to it
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: real question is - Do we need to keep i386-based UME config around?
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: yes, that is my question too
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: could you ask rusty, rob, charlie and the rest if they see any need for it. I will post an email to the ML
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: ok, i thought that was your choice of how to package and build them
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: there could be other reasons. e.g. I am not sure if binaries created for lpia are 100% compatible with i386. So we might want to keep it for developers who do not have lpia-based HW
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: so are you thinking about lpia specific gcc option that may be availble in the future? lpia does have smaller instruction set.
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: yes
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: so for lpia, are there any other configuration difference (in linux-source) beyond the kernel config file?
<amitk__> I don't expect there to be any differences. I was going to just copy the ume config to lpia
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: got it. switching topic to poulsbo 2d gfx driver, what do u mean by including whole tree?
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: i thought it has to use the source tree in lum 
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: considering that none of the drivers except poulsbo are useful on lpia, I was just wondering if it was overkill
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: you meant single out a lpia flavor of lum for poulsbo? i think it is worth doing, this is a new processor/chipset family
<amitk__> jacob-laptop: the poulsbo DRM driver is definitely going into it's own separate flavour for LUM. I was only wondering if it would be possible to prune the non-poulsbo stuff from your git tree
<jacob-laptop> amitk__: i don't know, i did not develop the driver. ultimately we have to test it on the HW to decide. 
* agoliveira was testing the UME images yesterday and forgot a USB key with a install image on it attached to his notebook. This morning almost had a heart attack when the strange prompt showed up...
<robr> agoliveira: you're lucky it wasn't an install image created by image-creator and accidentally hit the ENTER key after it booterd ;-)
<agoliveira> robr: It *was* an install image :) Luckely I figured that out quickly and turned it off.
<robr> *d'oh!*
* agoliveira just made a note to make a full backup later.
* robr notes to himself that we need to make that install.sh script more intelligent
<doko> # Use soft-float and thumb mode if it is enabled.
<doko> ifneq (,$(findstring thumb,$(DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS)))
<doko>         CFLAGS += -mthumb
<doko> endif
<doko> is this a nokia invention?
<doko> without garding the cpu ...
<Mithrandir> doko: yes, it is.
<Mithrandir> is it a problem?
<doko> Mithrandir: no, just wondering
<bicchi> I would like to get a Samsung Q1, any comments on what features will I be missing if i run ubuntu on it?
<bfiller> does anyone know if the hildon-desktop that is installed with image-creator is build from trunk or ubutunu branch?
<bfiller> I want to make mods but not sure where to pull from..
<rusty> bfiller, IIRC it was built off the ubuntu branch
<bfiller> thanks, that's what I thought
<bfiller> strange thing is when I built it from ubuntu branch and installed the deb packages in my chroot, the drop down menu at far left is all screwed up.
<bfiller> and keyboard status bar plugin and another plugin show up
<bfiller> these don't appear after image-creator install
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-08
<ppires> hi
<HappyCamp> Does anyone know if there is an easy way when building a debian package to have it ignore certain files when building the source package?  For example a .git/ directory.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: debuild -i -I.git is probably what you want.
<sodarock_home> Mithrandir: Thanks for the tip on debuild. 
* sodarock_home is also Happycamp at work
<Mithrandir> ah, happy to help.
<guardian> good morning
<guardian> what's the input method framework used by ubuntu-mobile please ? hildon-input-method? 
<Mithrandir> guardian: is hildon-input-method free software yet?  I thought it was still closed?
<guardian> maybe it's still closed
<guardian> in fact one have to make the difference between the framework that can be opensourced and the plugins which may remain closed source
<Mithrandir> sure.  IIRC, the whole framework is mostly-closed, but in the process of opening up
<Mithrandir> I could be wrong, though
<guardian> in the meantime, what's the way to go ?
<guardian> GtkImContext ?
<Mithrandir> we're actually not using anything at the moment -- the user has to pop up the keyboard him/herself.
<Mithrandir> that has to change soonish, though
<Tsega> Hello people anyone out there?
<Tsega> Hello/
<Mithrandir> yes, why?
<Tsega> I just wanted to talk about ubuntu-mobile development
<Mithrandir> talk and I or some of the others will try to answer
<Tsega> Ok
<mfrey> does anyone know if there are linux-restricted-modules built for the menlow kernel?  If so how does one get them?
<Tsega> I wanted to know what I need to know to start dishing out mobile apps
<Mithrandir> mfrey: they should be there, yes.
<Mithrandir> Tsega: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure should get you a proper desktop
<Mithrandir> mfrey: make sure you install linux-ume and you should be good
<Tsega> Thanks that was helpful
<ppires> hi
<Mithrandir> hi ppires 
<ppires> how are you Mithrandir?
<Mithrandir> good thanks.  Just at the tail of my day, so packing up here.
<ppires> i'm on vacation, just woke up ^^
<patm> The current menlow fsets define two choices, one with the moblin kenel and one with the ubuntu kernel. What is the difference between these?
<agoliveira> patm: IIRC, the ubuntu kernel is the standard i386 kernel and the moblin kernel has a few changes towards the mccaslin platform.
<patm> do you mean menlow or mccaslin? Does it include Poulsbo support yet?
<agoliveira> patm: Sorry, I'm not sure.
<mfrey> Mithrandr: Is there a way to install the Marvell wifi drivers into the ume kernel?
<asac> i get regular connection droppage when visiting http://www.moblin.org/repos/
<asac> anyone else sees this when hitting reload a few times?
<ppires> i'm new around but i've seen quite some complaints about it.
<ppires> ssh connections being dropped, and such
<ppires> isn't that right Mithrandir ?
<kupesoft> So I want to get a Q1 Ultra
<kupesoft> How well will it run Fiesty until the first release?
<ppires> imho things are not directly related
<ppires> ubuntu-mobile is not directly aimed at a specific range of devices. instead it's intended to become a distro w/ a framework for mobile devices (both OS and development framework)
<ppires> and as a framework, it depends on moblin (http://moblin.org)
<ppires> which itself has roots in the maemo project
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-09
<lenkawell> mdz, can you talk at 1000 EDT?
<mdz> lenkawell: yes
<mdz> lenkawell: I have two hours of back-to-back meetings prior to that, but if they don't run over, I should be fine
<lenkawell> mdz, sounds good, thanks
<Mithrandir> hiya Mauri, Ken
<agoliveira> Hi all.
<amitk> hi
<kwwii> hi 
* agoliveira is starving. Those back-to-back meetings about lunch time here are killing me :)
<rusty> hi
* rusty wonders if agoliveira started working for Intel
<Mithrandir> hiya rusty; it's been a while.
<rusty> good vacation?
* agoliveira is still wating for Mauri's call :-D
<mawhalen> Hi Adilson
<mawhalen> Any Samsung yet?
<agoliveira> mawhalen: Hi. I wish :(
<Mithrandir> rusty: yes, absolutely.  Spent a couple of days riding around in the mountains.
<mawhalen> I sent information to somebody in Brazil that made me think it was on it's way...I'll check again.  
<mawhalen> crazy
<agoliveira> mawhalen: 2 days ago I received an email from Sulamita stating that it was sent but if they sent on that day should be here yesterday already.
* rusty imagines agoliveira's samsung being paddled up some remote section of an Amazon tributary
<kwwii> I won't even ask about mine then
<Mithrandir> kwwii: not shipped yet.
<Mithrandir> ok, shall we start?  Charlie is on vacation and not here this week.
<agoliveira> mawhalen: I already asked Sulamita for the tracking number but she didn't answer yet. If you could find this for me I can track it down.
<mawhalen> Todd - you on?
<Todd> ya, I'm here
<rusty> Bob is still on vacation 
<agoliveira> rusty: I don't know why you north-americans have this fixation with the Amazon :)
<jacob-laptop> hi everyone
<mawhalen> Mithrandir: Todd Brandt is now joining, he is working on the Control Panel and applets
<Mithrandir> mawhalen: ah, good.
<Mithrandir> Todd: welcome.
<Todd> Hello :)
<rusty> well, looks who's here?
<Mithrandir> I've just recently come back from vacation, so I failed to post an agenda to the list.  I propose we do the usual; status updates and any discussion items.
<Mithrandir> anybody have any discussion items already?
<mawhalen> Is Rob on?
<rusty> rob_, you listening?
<mawhalen> Mithrandir: I'd like Rob to give an update on what we are doing with SDIO
<Todd> I have one: I've selected a starting source base for he control panel applets using the gnome-control-center code, I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions on that
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Nothing new from my side.
<mawhalen> Mithrandir: I'd also like to talk about Email
<Mithrandir> mawhalen: sdio goes with the kernel update?
<mawhalen> Mithrandir: what do you mean by kernel update?  For 7.10 or 7.10.1?
<Mithrandir> no, the status update. :-)
<Mithrandir> so it doesn't need a separate agenda item
<mawhalen> Mithrandir: oh - yes.
<Mithrandir> let's go through the specs then.  I don't have much in the way of updates from me, because of said vacation.  Adilson, please fill in when you have something. :-)
<Mithrandir> mobile-app-framework: I'm pondering just marking this as "done", since hildon's there, and works.
<agoliveira> Sure.
<Mithrandir> so unless anybody has any questions, we'll move on to browser.
<Mithrandir> bspencer,asac : do you have an update on the browser status?
<asac> yeah :)
<asac> good that its at the beginning ... because i am about to leave ;)
<asac> we uploaded a midbrowser update that ships new branding iirc
<asac> now we discuss how to best hildonize it ...
<asac> i would have a question about that
<asac> how does hildon theme its application/program menu? can we theme normal GtkMenu in the same way?
<Mithrandir> in general, I think you want to use hildon menus, and they'll get the right theme automatically?
<bspencer> all hildon apps use the same theme for the menu
<bspencer> which is system wide -- is that your question?
<rob_> hi all
<asac> i know that normal GtkMenus are not used in other apps, but it would ease hildonizing mozilla a lot if we could just apply the same theme on GtkMenus
<mfrey> has anyone looked at the just release maemo browser?
<mfrey> based on mozilla
<bspencer> mfrey -- hold that thought...
<bspencer> asac: but GtkMenu has the menu across the top
<agoliveira> mfrey: I did test it and works very well.
<asac> bspencer: no thats not the point :) ... its just about the theme of the pop-up
<bspencer> and we have to use a hildon menu to put the menu in the drop-down list
<bspencer> ah
<asac> the idea is to introduce libmozhildon which plainly listens for the X events hildon listens to and pops-up xul popups instead
<asac> from what i saw in libhildon code it should be not too hard
<asac> to mimic that behaviour
<bspencer> ok.  worth taking a look
<asac> however ... if normal GtkMenus would be rendered in the same way as the hildon drop-down it would help a lot
<bspencer> asac: I chatted with Nokia guys about something similar, which is to change Gtk to behave as Hildon so apps don't have to port
<asac> bspencer: i think its the most efficient way to go ... but we can talk about that outside this meeting
<bspencer> asac: yeah, I like the idea.  Let's chat offline
<asac> bspencer: well it doesn't help for us ... mozilla doesn't use GtkMenu et al
<asac> bspencer: and we would get full xul'ish behaviour automatically
<bfiller> what is the diff between midbrowser on launchpad and Mobile Internet Browser on mobiln?
<asac> bfiller: the link is still wrong on moblin
<cwong1> asac: I fixed that yesterday
<asac> bfiller: the right git repository is a bit in advance 
<asac> cwong1: ah ok ... thanks
<bfiller> so it's the same code?
<asac> cwong1: we have now our own xul window for application in git ... which we don't have in latest release.
<asac> bfiller: it has progressed, but yes ... we release from there
<bspencer> so source is moblin --> launchpad --> ubuntu-mobile
<bspencer> is that right?
<asac> moblin has pristine upstream repository -> launchpad adds debian/ -> ubuntu-mobile has ubuntu packages
<bspencer> right.
<bspencer> can we talk a little about ETA for some features... or is it too soon?
<asac> welll toolbar on bottom is already in git
<asac> we can actually strip down ui now as we need
<asac> for now we should just assume that the top level menu is the hildon menu
<bspencer> excellent.
<bspencer> right.  Fine for starters.
<cwong1> hildonize it is the next big item to do
<asac> it will end up to be renamed to <hildonmenu> ... and adapted to X events by libmozhildon ... if all works out well ;)
<asac> at least that is my vision
<asac> adaption can be done through normal xbl
<asac> e.g. introduce the hildonmenu tag which represents an invisible menu that pops-up if it gets some event
<bspencer> ok.
<bspencer> anything else for midbrowser?
<agoliveira> cwong1: One factor that I took in consideration when I selected the applications was the capability to hildonize so we should have no big problems with that. At least I hope so :)
<bspencer> mfrey asked: has anyone looked at the just release maemo browser?
<asac> bspencer: well ... it would be nice if someone could look if and how its possible to theme GtkMenu Popups in the same way as hildon menu
<bspencer> cwong1 did a little.  and rusty too
<bspencer> asac: ok.  cwong1 and I will chat about that today
<asac> bspencer: thanks
<cwong1> ok
<bspencer> about maemo browser -- it is a GtkMozEmbed-based browser.
<bspencer> I think it is a viable alternative to our work, with different goals
<bspencer> I think we still need a full xul-based solution, which is what we are creating
<bspencer> but we can also port the maemo browser too.  
<bspencer> in time...
<bspencer> mfrey: ok?
<mfrey> I agree that we need a full XUL based browser
<mfrey> but I have not looked at the source
<mfrey> for the maemo one yet
<rusty> has anyone been able to build the maemo browser?  When i looked at it the source was pretty confusing
<mfrey> but I do like they UI concepts 
<agoliveira> rusty: I tried for like 30 min and gave up.
<rusty> the project is really a bunch of projects, with undocumented dependencies
<mfrey> Where is the source -- I can have a look
<bspencer> obfuscation is their talent :-\
<agoliveira> https://garage.maemo.org/svn/browser/mozilla/trunk/
<mfrey> thanks
<rusty> i'm not sure the obfustication was on purpose
<rusty> might just be they way they developer thinks about the problem
<rusty> if he had a README then it would make life a lot easier
<asac> mfrey: what ui concepts do you refer to?
* asac looking at http://browser.garage.maemo.org/pics/maemo-org.png 
<mfrey> I guess I just mean the integrated hildonized toolbar.
<rusty> When i used the browser while at GUADEC, it provided some of the same iPhone like features where you could zoom in on a page... but not as well done as the iPhone
<asac> ok ... yes so its not their UI concept
<mfrey> It also seems that the code is based on gecko 1.9 that supports zooming (which I think is important)
<asac> well ... we won't be able to use 1.9 in stable releases in the near future i guess
<bspencer> For the sake of time, I recommend we move forward...
<agoliveira> mfrey: You're right.
* agoliveira agrees
<asac> mfrey: maybe thats the reason it fails to build?
<asac> ok
<asac> i have to go
* asac waves
<Mithrandir> see you, asac.
<Mithrandir> mobile-graphics; is there anybody around who can give an update?
<rusty> we could ask about the state of integrating what has already been handed over?
<agoliveira> bye asac
<Mithrandir> bryce's not here, but I could summarise it.
<Mithrandir> he's packaged up the bits we've been given, I don't think they're uploaded yet.
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure what's holding that up.
<Mithrandir> he's also started on the libdrm merge, merging in the bits from your code into our package.
<Mithrandir> and he's going to your campus this week (iirc) to work on getting everything working.
<bspencer> on a related note...sorry for being out of touch, but did we resolve the Keith-Packard-patch to the xserver, and is that finished?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yes, that's fixed.
<rusty> Mithrandir, i have another agenda item that i just remembered that i would like to add to the queue.... its about the state of all the various packages that make up a *-full-mobile-stack
<rob_> Mithrandir, bryce will be here today, this afternoon
<Mithrandir> ok, coolie
<rob_> what about the kernel module needed for the 2-d driver?
<Mithrandir> it should be in, I thought.
<Mithrandir> amitk: can you confirm that?
<amitk> Mithrandir: it should go in tomorrow
<Mithrandir> ok, good
<rob_> cool
<Mithrandir> any more questions for -graphics, or move on?
<agoliveira> A warning: I just received a call from the phone company that they may have to disconnect me for about 1 hour for repairs (a pole in the corner was hit by a truck this mornig) so don't worry if I just become irresponsive all the sudden.
<rob_> and bryce will be picking up a crown beach system today too
<Mithrandir> oh, great.
<Mithrandir> next item, image creation.
<Mithrandir> we've had some trouble with the image creator, again; it's a bit on the brittle side.
<rusty> Mithrandir, a lot of problems are the result of not having up-to-date packages in gutsy (from moblin)
<rusty> problems with the UME build, that is
<Mithrandir> we should add that to the list of stuff to discuss -- how to avoid that happening.
<rusty> in other words, if you are using image-creator off moblin, then there is an  apt configuration to pull from the moblin apt repository (in addition to gutsy)
<rusty> if you remove that configuration then you see the same thing that the automated UME build is kicking out
<rusty> so we just need to figure out what all packages need updated in gutsy
<rusty> there has been a log of work 
<agoliveira> I don't see many alternatives but automate the sync or keep using moblin repos.
<Mithrandir> rusty: our build host is firewalled and can't access moblin.org
<Mithrandir> that's not going to change, so "using moblin repos" is not an alternative.
<rusty> that's cool, and it helps us find these kind of errors
<agoliveira> Hmmm... didnt' know that
<rusty> but this explains why using the UME images have all kinds of problems that we fixed already
<Mithrandir> it'd probably help if you prodded me when you have stuff you want uploaded.
<rusty> is there some way to do a diff between apt repositories... to at least see what packages are newer on moblin?
<rusty> Mithrandir, the deal is that our build is automatically kicked off when ever anyone commits a change into the code
<Mithrandir> you can use apt-cache policy on the relevant packages, and see where it tries to pull from
<agoliveira> rusty: COuldn't you also create and provide the images?
<Mithrandir> an improvement I coded in last night is the creator now makes .manifest files besides the image, listing what's in it.
<Mithrandir> so that should make Charlie happier and make it easier to see what's in an image.
<Mithrandir> I think we should move on.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: I like that feature
<Mithrandir> -kernel; what's going on there?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: good for testing too.
<amitk> 2D driver should go in tomorrow
<amitk> I am testing the build right now
<amitk> rob_: should I integrate the SDIO patches, or are we getting updates?
<amitk> storage driver was switched to piix instead of ata to get DMA performance improvements on jacob-laptop's request
<rob_> amitk, you should integrate them, but we need to talk about a longer term strategy about what to do about sdio
<rob_> amitk, we've got libata support now working and it's checked in our kernel on moblin.org -- we're in the process of reviewing it
<amitk> rob_: great
<amitk> I should be receiving the updated/cleaned-up patch for thermal optimisations tomorrow
<amitk> once I get the go-ahead I will merge that as well
<amitk> So after the 2D DRM, I have two things on my list - SDIO and thermal
<amitk> Anything else that is needed from the kernel?
<rob_> amik: as you know, all work on our current MSS sdio patch has stopped and we're working w/ Pierre's SDIO stack...we think we can have that working pretty well on Menlow by end of September...but is that too late for inclusion?
<amitk> rob_: Sept might be very late yes. Mithrandir can comment our Ubuntu policy in these cases
<rob_> amitk, i keep hearing that adding a new feature patch like that will be difficult past the august feature freeze
<rob_> amitk, MSS and Pierre's code could reside in the same kernel -- we could put it in before the feature freeze and then provide bug fix over the course of development
<rob_> it's a config option would enable one or the other 
<amitk> rob_: I will have to talk to the kernel team. I will get back to you on this.
<rob_> amitk, ok
<Mithrandir> ok, anything more about kernel?
<rob_> Mithrandir, i've got nothing more
<Mithrandir> ok; move on to UI.
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: do you have an update on that?
<bspencer_> Mithrandir I too have been out for 2wk vacation and just back this morning.
<Mithrandir> ok, so it's probably better if you send that update to the list, then?
<bspencer_> We have two things going:  working with ken wimer to create UI, and working to get a simple non-flash UI up soon
<bspencer_> non-flash UI that behaves similar to current flash UI.  Very simple.
<Mithrandir> interesting; what are you basing that on?
<bspencer_> Ken's will take a bit of work and some changes too.  
<bspencer_> the simple UI is hopefully do-able in a shorter time frame.
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: we are currently looking at Clutter
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> you're in touch with kwwii about the theme, I hope?
<bspencer_> yes, thanks.   kwwii also is working on a real theme
<bspencer_> he knows much more about this than I
<kwwii> we need to get the format in line before we can start testing the first stuff
<bspencer_> but we discussed after our meeting a couple of weeks ago the steps to create.
<bspencer_> kwwii: hello!
<kwwii> ie. we need to be able to start from one large pic in the build process or such
<kwwii> hi bspencer_
<Mithrandir> the theme builder has that support, as you know
<agoliveira> bspencer_: The idea is to keep the aspect, functionality, etc or do something else?
<kwwii> I started playing with the SVG - I guess we'll have to take note as we go on what needs to be changed
<kwwii> Mithrandir: everythin I have seen until now was cut up pics...do you have a link to that?
<agoliveira> kwwii: link to the theme tools?
<bspencer_> agoliveira: don't understand your question
<Mithrandir> apt-get source hildon-theme-plankton and look at template/template.png
<kwwii> agoliveira: yes, if that is what I need to go from the theme-in-one-pic to a usable version
<mdz> (hi, guys, I'm finished with the server meeting so dropping in late)
<kwwii> Mithrandir: right, but that does not show how the cutter-upper works and how to tweak it
<kwwii> sorry for the technical terms :p
<sabotage> http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/
<Mithrandir> kwwii: point.  sabotage's link might help with that
<agoliveira> bspencer_: I meant if it the nun-flash UI would be the same (aspect, functionality, etc) as the flash version or it would change the way it works
<sabotage> I've used it to build my own themes for my N770 in the past
<kwwii> yeah, if we wanted to simply change the look of the Nokia stuff it would be enough
<kwwii> but out stuff is different by design
<bspencer_> agoliveira: same to start, then improve gradually
<kwwii> s/out/our
<sabotage> but it needs to be modified to match the planned layout for UME 
<kwwii> sabotage: that would be killer :-)
<sabotage> which means we have to finalize and document our layout ;)
<sabotage> exact sizes/dimensions etc... and that then only works for one formfactor, so then you need options or alterantives for other aspect ratios
<Mithrandir> ok, so this needs some serious attention.
<kwwii> sabotage: right, I've started to mess with things, but it will take some time
<agoliveira> kwwii: There's the hildon-theme-tools package that does this for the original maemo tools.
<agoliveira> kwwii: I meant maemo themes
<Mithrandir> ok, let's move on
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool, I'll check that out, once I find it in launchpad :-)
<sabotage> agoliviera, correct, but again they make assumptions on the target screen size 
<Mithrandir> skipping window manager
<Mithrandir> amitk: any update on the power thermal optimisations?
<kwwii> it is clear that the tools as-is are not going to be enough
<agoliveira> Sure
<Mithrandir> seems like amitk isn't around right now, so moving on.
<kwwii> me cooks dinner for the family...bbl
<Mithrandir> skipping USB client, since Charlie's not here; we're then at the utilities.
<Mithrandir> aka the control panel bits.
<bspencer_> is Todd here?
<Todd> yea
<Todd> Basically I have a list of starting source bases that I want your opinion on
<Todd> lemme paste 9 lines
<Todd> Power Management           Power Policy Management (Intel)
<Todd> Connection Management      gnome-control-center:Network Proxy, gnome-system-tools:Network
<Todd> Touchscreen calibration    Possibly the touchscreen library (tslib) from DirectFB?
<Todd> Screen brightness          Possibly the backlight code from gnome-power-manager?
<Todd> User theming customization gnome-control-center:Theme/Theme Installer
<Todd> Font size / screen size    gnome-control-center:(Font, Screen Resolution)
<Todd> Hardware button config     gnome-control-center:Keyboard Shortcuts
<Todd> Volume Controls            gnome-control-center:Sound                                                 
<Todd> System Information         gnome-system-tools:System Monitor                                        
<Todd> These are the targetted areas of control panel functionality and the source bases I think best to start from
<Todd> do they look ok?
<Mithrandir> the connection management bits; we've talked about network-manager for that
<lenkawell> are you planning to modify the UI for these at all?
<rusty> Todd, for the touchscreen calibration, there is an existing calibration application (that sucks) from the x driver
<mdz> Mithrandir: are we set up to do syncs from moblin? or doing separate source uploads?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm doing source uploads.
<Todd> lenkawell: yes, for each one, but we'll use the existing source as a base for how it should look and go from there
<mdz> Mithrandir: should we think about having a weekly(ish?) ritual of pulling in the latest updates from moblin? that might be more efficient than coming to you for each component update
<Todd> mithrandir: for connection management, what has been decided? Have you already discussed reusing the gnome network manager code?
<mdz> Mithrandir: (sorry, I've read scrollback and am jumping around a bit)
<lenkawell> Todd, do you have a schedule for when you think you'll get this in?
<Mithrandir> Todd: network-manager is divided into a backend and frontend, and it already works-ish if you just install it on a system today.
<Mithrandir> Todd: it seems to me much better to fix any problems there rather than build something on the not-very-good bits of gnome-control-center's network bits.
<Todd> lenkawell: not yet, I'm going to port the gnome-control-center's netowrk proxy config code first to see how much work is needed to get this stuff into Hildon, then I'll have a better idea of the overall schedule
<Mithrandir> mdz: we could do that.
<Mithrandir> Todd: the proxy code is very simple; it just sets a couple of gconf keys.
<mdz> Mithrandir: bspencer and I talked at OSCON about doing something similar with hildon updates
<mdz> I don't know whether they do milestone releases, but in any case, we should track it in some fashion
<Todd> Mithrandir: yea, that's why I'm porting it first, to see how long the simplest possible app takes to port (I'm actually new to the application side, I'm a kernel guy, forgive me if I sound a nit naive)
<Mithrandir> we have patches for hildon, though.
<Mithrandir> Todd: ah, ok.  Sounds fine, then.
<bspencer_> Todd: there's a thread discussing the network manager stuff on mailing list.  We can chat about it offline.
<agoliveira> mdz: IFAIK, they only do milestones for the project as a whole and they had only 3 I think so far.
<Todd> bspencer: soudns great :)
<Mithrandir> when do you expect we can see code drops?
<bspencer> Todd:  about control panel, the list is a great start.  Thanks for the investigation.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: are you asking about control panel or other?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: the control panel bits.
* bspencer looks at Todd
<Todd> Mithrandir: the biggest issue we have right now is a bug in the hildon-control-panel code that causes it to crash when loading applets in the moblin environment
<Mithrandir> do we have a workaround or fix for it, or not yet?
<bspencer> Todd: I'll push again on the guys at nokia to help us resolve it this week.
<Todd> Mithrandir: the bug is in the Nokia code, so we need to sync with them to find a fix. I can't even run the hildon-control-panel code we have in Maemo 3.2 scratchbox because it's too new, scratchbox seems to only be able to run 2.2.x hildon-control-panel code
<ian_brasil> i will make a request about hildon also
<bspencer> Todd: it is another exapmle of finding the right code -- the hildon svn repo is not always organized well
<Todd> our source base is from their "refactoring" branch, which is so new it's unversioned :P
<Mithrandir> Todd: ok.  Tell me if there's something I can usefully help with.
<rusty> Mithrandir, but in the mean time the control panel applets can be developed using the older control panel in scratchpad
<Todd> bspencer: yea that was a big problem
<rusty> s/scratchpad/scratchbox/
<Todd> right, we can use scratchbox and Maemo 3.2 to develop these control panel apps for hildon-control-panel 2.2.10, but I wouldn't feel right making source drops to you guys without having actually tested them on the moblin platform
<Mithrandir> ok
<Todd> this is the conundrum
<Mithrandir> so we need to get that bug fixed or worked around.
<Todd> yup
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: any chance you could help with that?  You've looked at quite a bit of hildon code already.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Not as much as you may think but I'll be glad to give it a shot :)
<bspencer> I think it is a small issue that nokia probably already has a fix for given they likely have a working control panel now.
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> ok, so we could try just pulling in their upstream changes first.
<bspencer> we'll get it done for next week.
<Todd> bspencer: that would be great *crossing my fingers*
<Mithrandir> coolie
<Mithrandir> move on, then
<Mithrandir> media player
<Mithrandir> how's it going in that camp?
<bspencer> I must defer to rusty for any updates
<bspencer> last I know is I sent new graphics to team to integrate into UI
<rusty> the media player is progressing, with a lot of work going into landing the music management bits
<rusty> so you don't have the file-picker as your UI for playing media
<rusty> we are also getting ready so submit some patches to the helixcommunity so that the helix-dbus-server can be used with the media player
<Mithrandir> oh, goodie
<lenkawell> rusty: is there a "functional spec" for the player? I know there's a UI spec, but it doesn't say much about the goals, capabilities, etc.
<bspencer> lenkawell: that could be created.  Not a bad idea.
<rusty> lenkawell, yes there is a functional spec... but i'm not sure if it's in an easy to find location on moblin
<lenkawell> rusty: is the player going to support both helix and gstreamer simultaneously?
<rusty> we just need to upload it
<rusty> lenkawell, yes
<rusty> the media infrastructure is pulled out of the player via a dbus service
<Mithrandir> ok, move on?  Seems like the media player is coming along well
<rusty> so as long as you have a service that implements the right dbus interface than it can be used with the player
<rusty> sure
<lenkawell> rusty, ok, thanks
<Mithrandir> the build infrastructure is working, but falling over too often for my liking due to image-creator's brittleness. :-/  I'm working with Adam Conrad on fixing the bugs as I see them, but it takes time.
<rusty> a lot of the brittleness comes from the repository of packages, and not really the tool itself
<rusty> but when people find bugs, please post a bug on the bugzilla at moblin.org
* agoliveira googles for "brittleness"
<Mithrandir> I tend to just fix them. :-P
<ian_brasil> fraco
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: something that breaks easily.
<Mithrandir> moving on; the gnome components bit is still hung on me finding time to do it.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil. Obrigado.
<Mithrandir> so no update on that.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: thansk
<Mithrandir> hw-decode; is there any progress to report?  It's marked as "not started" which looks wrong.
<rusty> it is started
<rusty> but i don't have an update
<rusty> that would be Charlie
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> let's skip it, then.
<Mithrandir> I'll mail the list asking for its status to be updated.
* agoliveira dreams about hagen dazs' Macadamia Nuts Brittle...
<Mithrandir> for the development environment, I've made some progress, but run into some bugs in germinate, the tool we use for generating the seeds.
<Mithrandir> as as workaround, I'll be seeding the necessary bits manually, I think.
<Mithrandir> moving on to the keyboard; status update?
<bspencer> matchbox keyboard is working, with statusbar toggle
<bspencer> still working on auto-launch stuff
<rusty> and with several styls
<Mithrandir> it should probably not pop up the menu about what kind of keyboard you want each and every time you open it.
<bspencer> mm... haven't seen that.  agreed
<rusty> it would make more sense if a control panel applet provided the ability to change your keyboard style
<rusty> and clicking on the keyboard just opened your pref of a keyboard style
<Mithrandir> something like that, or tap-and-hold to change
<bspencer> good ideas  
<rusty> oooo... fancy :->
<bspencer> I'll follow up on that
<agoliveira>  tap-and-hold would be cool
<Mithrandir> ok, that's the status updates, then Mauri wanted to talk about email?
<Mithrandir> mawhalen: email?
<agoliveira> I think she's away.
<mawhalen> no - typing, hold on
<agoliveira> Sorry
<mawhalen> agoliveira: Frank can work on email but needs some direction
<mawhalen> I saw that you asked him for code, which we can give 
<agoliveira> mawhalen: I already in contact with him.
<mawhalen> I just wanted to get some expectation on what is really expected from him
<bspencer> side thought:   iPhone uses POP to get emails and then puts them into consistent UI, regardless of gmail, or other source.   
<agoliveira> mawhalen: As I explained to him, he needed to put Claws to wok on UME with the hildon interface.
<agoliveira> The same I'm working on with the rest of the applications.
<mawhalen> agoliveira: ok - communication is a little tougher with him in PRC
<agoliveira> s/wok/work - Sorry, I'm really starving :)
<agoliveira> mawhalen: Yes, usually takes a day.
<bspencer> agoliveira: I can help bridge that a little
<agoliveira> bspencer: Thanks we can see that after meeting.
<agoliveira> But actually there's not much to it.
<mawhalen> OK - we can take offline
<mawhalen> thanks
<agoliveira> mawhalen: No problem.
<Mithrandir> mawhalen: ok, have you gotten the answers you need?
<mawhalen> yes - thx
<Mithrandir> sdio and control center applets has been covered, so rusty, "state of full stack"; your agenda item
<agoliveira> mawhalen: Just a quick question: did you see my request about the tracking code?
<agoliveira> Sorry, that was supposed to be private.
<agoliveira> Please, go ahead Tollef
<rusty> Mithrandir, that agenda request was what we covered in the discussion of UME image builds not having what users expect because of packages that have yet to be pushed into gutsy
<mdz> what was the resolution there?  poke Tollef when you release a new version?
<rusty> i think the weekly sync would be a good solution
<Mithrandir> I'd be most comfortable with that, and not just blindingly syncing, but if the consensus is to just sync, then we'll do that.
<mdz> so if I understand correctly, you guys are providing a .deb repository at moblin, and then we're also bringing that stuff into Ubuntu separately?
<Mithrandir> first that = "poke me when you have something you want uploaded".
<rusty> mdz, yes, we have an automated build system such that anytime a developer updates some code, and new package is built and uploaded to an apt repository on moblin
<mdz> in that case, we should be able to be fairly liberal about syncing
<rusty> mdz, but we have a manual process for pushing updates into gutsy
<mdz> I'm assuming most of these developers are not touching the packages
<mdz> s/packages/packaging metadata/
<mdz> we have a process whereby packages can be copied verbatim from external repositories into Ubuntu
<mdz> so once the packaging has been vetted, we should be able to bring in code updates with minimal review
<mdz> we should also work toward having someone on the Intel side with privileges to push packages into Gutsy
<Mithrandir> as in, getting them through motu and core-dev?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> Canonical can provide community and engineering resources toward that goal
<mdz> I'll follow up with an email about this
<Mithrandir> sounds good.
<Mithrandir> I'd be happy to have more people who work on mobile being able to upload packages.
<rusty> do we have other items.... i'm about to hit a hard stop
<Mithrandir> no, I don't have anything more.
<Mithrandir> anybody else?
<agoliveira> I would like to make a request
<agoliveira> If it's not a problem, could we move this meeting to wednesday?
<agoliveira> or friday
<Mithrandir> preferably not, since I work late on Thursdays so I can have all those crazy-hour meetings then.
<Mithrandir> we could move it a bit later in the day.
<agoliveira> Well, if we could move 1 hour later would be great already.
<mdz> Thursday is better for me as well
<bspencer> not sure we could hold onto asac and kwwii though if later.
<agoliveira> Ok, just forget it then.
<mdz> it's already fairly late for central Europe
<rusty> another possibility is rotating the time
<cwong1> asac stays late
<Mithrandir> that'd work too
<agoliveira> It's just that this back-to-back meetings around my linch time is really giving me some ill reactions.
<bspencer> agoliveira: such a whiner :P
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: eat before the meeting, then?
<agoliveira> Too early.
<Mithrandir> we should also try to cut down the length of the meeting.
<agoliveira> I can handle that it's a problem.
<bspencer> agoliveira: tell your wife to pack you a sandwich and extra bag of chips
<Mithrandir> I tried to get people to send status reports to the list, and we can then have the real discussion items here.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: good idea.  We had 30min browser discussion.  We can improve.
<Mithrandir> that works well for the distro meetings, but it didn't really pick up here, probably because people didn't see what I wanted to.
<agoliveira> bspencer: I wish but the lunch is our main meal of the day here so I need a real meal.
<bspencer> agoliveira: yes, and a nap after iirc
<Mithrandir> heh
<agoliveira> bspencer: No, naps are for the Mexicans :)
<Mithrandir> it doesn't seem like anybody has any more business, so adjourned.
<agoliveira> Ok.
<rusty> l8r
<mdz> thanks, all
<bspencer> agoliveira: you taking off for food now?
<bspencer> wanted to chat briefly about email 
<bspencer> could do it later
<ian_brasil> he has already gone :)
<bspencer> :)
<agoliveira> I can wait a bit longer, I already got a headache :)
<bspencer> just a couple of things
<bspencer> we have Frank working on email now 
<bspencer> he's a smart guy, though not really an apps guy
<bspencer> a bit of direction from you and I would go a long way
<bspencer> so if you have pointers about Claws or other, please send it our way.  And we'll try to get the source we are modifying uploaded early so you can contribute too if you have spare cycles
<agoliveira> I'm all for it. I already told him that I'm available but didn't have any news from him until I asked for it yesterday.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Sorry but I don't have anything specific on it.
<agoliveira> But I do have a tip:
<bspencer> ok.  I think he'll do a good job from the middle-ware side of things.  I'll try to help guide the UI polish stuff with him.
* bspencer waits for tip
<agoliveira> I've being trying to remove libosso while keeping hildon interface. After some discussion today we figured out that would be more productive to hack libosso for our use so it would be much easier to port the applications.
<agoliveira> So, that's what I'm about to start.
<agoliveira> If all goes well should be much easier for him also.
<bspencer> libosso is for environment variables, #define's, etc, right?  Refresh my memory on its purpose
<agoliveira> Because fro what I understood he didn't compile claws with hildon interface but gtk.
<agoliveira> libosso is a wrapper for d-bus, mostly used for proprietary stuff.
<bspencer> right.  He started with basic Claws.  Is there already a maemo port?
<agoliveir1> Curretly we do have libosso but hacked to support as dependency. It does not work with current dbus
<agoliveir1> Sorry, I went offline for a bit
<bspencer> Frank started with basic Claws. Is there already a maemo port?
<agoliveir1> bspencer: Yes, there is, that's one of the reasons I choose Claws.
<bspencer> Frank might already know that.  I'll double-check tonight
<bspencer> do you have the maemo garage link?
<agoliveir1> He won't be able to compile directly due the libosso issue.
<agoliveir1> http://www.claws-mail.org/maemo/
<bspencer> ok.  got it.  now your comments are making sense :)
<agoliveir1> It's good to make sense :)
<bspencer> we already have media player and chat application using dbus though
<bspencer> so maybe we already did something with libosso or workaround (we = PRC guys)
<agoliveir1> bspencer: I would love to know about it.
<bspencer> agoliveir1: obviously I'm not totally up on how it works but I've been gone for a couple weeks.  The guys working on that are horace, peter, and bo xu.  I don't see them on the irc list now
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: do you have any example code which should work, that doesn't?
<agoliveir1> Mithrandir: No I was just cutting off the support for it. I'll go after that as soon as I can get some food.
<bspencer> agoliveir1: ok.  that's all I have.  We can sync later.
<bspencer> enjoy your fiesta / siesta  (sp?)
<agoliveir1> None. :) Fiesta = party and siesta = nap and both are spanish :)
<agoliveir1> We speak portuguese here
<bspencer> my bad
<agoliveir1> No problem, many people do the same mistake.
<agoliveir1> Mithrandir: Anything else? If not I'm going to eat something.
<Mithrandir> just go find some food. :-)
<agoliveir1> Mithrandir: Ok, be back soon.
<mawhalen> rusty: you still around?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-10
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<Mithrandir> yay, manifests are now published properly together with the images
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hi. Could you please upload sapwood for me?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: sure
<Mithrandir> just what's in bzr?
<agoliveira> yes
<agoliveira> yay2: Q1 up and running - mostly - I fully tested it with Tribe 4 and worked really nice. The image downloaded from cdimages mostly work but the local image have some kernel problem I guess as can't install it from the USB. It does not find the device /dev/sda.
<Mithrandir> can you try the latest image from cdimage.u.c?
<Mithrandir> it should work, but getting verification would be good
<agoliveira> Have you forced a new one? I'm seeing a 20070810.3 there.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I mean, I suppose this 20070810.3 is newer than 20070810...
<Mithrandir> .3 is the newest one, yes.
<agoliveira> Just to be sure, thatnks.
<agoliveira> thanks
<AlexUbuntuBcn> hi
<AlexUbuntuBcn> where i can find info of ubuntu mobile please? i search for the www but i can't find any (only the new "canonical making a ubuntu mobile")
<agoliveira> AlexUbuntuBcn: Hi. YOu can find all the info you need here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded and here http://moblin.org
<AlexUbuntuBcn> thanks
<AlexUbuntuBcn> you know if ubuntu mobile will work in an acer n30?
<agoliveira> AlexUbuntuBcn: You can see in the links that I sent that this project is primarely to be used on x86 webpad-like gadgets. In theory, should be no problem to port to other platforms but there's nothing in our schedule so far.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: The latest image installed ok. 
<patm> agoliveira, are you there
<agoliveira> patm: Hi Pat.
<patm> agoliveira, sorry for missing the chat earlier
<patm> agoliveira, I have a question for you, what controls the positioning of the plugins in the desktop
<agoliveira> patm: To tell you the truth I think nobody went as you never confirmed.
<agoliveira> patm: I don't know this level of the details regarding the interface. You should ask Rusty or Bob (Intel).
<agoliveira> bobux: Bob, you're around?
<patm> agoliveira, Hey I found it, thought I had seen it before
<agoliveira> patm: Cool.
<patm> agoliveira, /etc/hildon-desktop/*.conf
<agoliveira> patm: Makes sense :)
<wasabi> So is hildon usable yet? start-hildon is looking for mas and sapwood.... and seems to be unable to get X and matchbox going
<wasabi> oh, i see... it's hard coded display numbers.
<agoliveir1> wasaby: I suggest you check the information here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
<agoliveira> patm: Pat, just out of curiosity, you're in Massachusetts, right?
<wasabi> yeah just read it
<wasabi> Looks more like a mission statement more than any indication of progress.
<wasabi> ahh found some links
<wasabi> ahh, pretty much busted looking for me so far
<agoliveira> wasabi: The project is it's infancy yet.
<wasabi> Okay.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-11
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<bicchi> can anyone tell me what works and does not works with the samsung q1 ultra and gutsy?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-12
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<Mithrandir> rob_: I don't see why we shouldn't make it possible.
<Mithrandir> rob_: but filing bugs is usually the best way to get problems fixed. :-)
<guardian_> mornin
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-04
<theseinfeld> woo, this is so quiet :D
<dns53> are there any plans of an arm port of ume?
<ogra> dns53, an arm port is being worked on 
<dns53> cool
<ogra> persia, what do you think about unifying touchscreen devices to be /dev/input/touchscreen (instead of eventX which might change between boots) through having an initscript that detects the touchscreen and sets the right link on boot ? 
<ogra> i.e. on my laptop is use something like that: http://paste.ubuntu.com/34052/
<ogra> at east in case of the evtouch driver that would make things a lot easier since you dont have to carry special configs per device, i noticed the Q1 has a pretty unique xorg.conf which is really not necessary imho if we fix the cause for it on a lower level
<joseph_cheah> hi...any expert for the UME MID kernel recompilation?
<joseph_cheah> anybody done with the 2.6.24-18-lpia kernel compilation?
<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-05
<persia> ogra: I think having a consistent /dev/touchscreen is an excellent idea, but I think that it ought be achieved by udev rules, rather than a script using ln -s.
<persia> If you look at the Q1U config, it has a udev rule that matches the specific model: perhaps this could be expanded to support a wider variety of touchscreens.
<persia> Err.  /dev/input/touchscreen
<ogra> well, i discussed the idea with Keybuk and bryce ... and they convinced me to rather try to get it properly into hal
<ogra> so the whole config can be handled there and is dynamic
<ogra> my attempt was a bit shortsighted and only actually targets the current situation ... which will not be the intrpid situation
<persia> ogra: Hmm.  That is better, and yes, doesn't work without the new xinput2 stuff.
<ogra> it would be a good solution for hardy though with your point to use udev it would even be better
<persia> In the Q1U images, we do use udev, just with a very tight udev rule matching only one device.
<ogra> but i will take a deep look into hal-input i think ... as soon as time permits
<persia> Yeah, I've been meaning to do that as well.  It is the future.
<ogra> we can use udev to trigger hal
<persia> Well, do we want /dev/input/touchscreen for legacy purposes?  If not, we can just trigger hal when adding any input device, and let hal-input sort it out
<ogra> right
<ogra> dev wont matter in the hal case
<ogra> v/dev i mean
<persia> The only case where one wouldn't want that is for MIDI, as the programming for MIDI is currently too different to handle generally.
<ogra> depends, i guess even that can be made workable by hal
 * persia was looking at indamixx press recently
<persia> Not for intrepid.  For later, maybe.
<ogra> btw, do you know the reason why Mouse0 in the config isnt using /dev/input/mice as it should be, but /dev/input/mouseX ? 
<ogra> using mice here makes all additionally attached pointing devices work as well ... (i.e. the trackball of my wreless kbd and my usb mouse) 
<persia> No idea at all.  That was frustrating to me, as it required adjustment to work on my hardware (or else only the touchpad worked, not the joystick or the touchscreen)
<ogra> right
<ogra> with /dev/input/mice all works equally fine
<ogra> i wonder if we can get that as fix in
<ogra> we'll likely need to re-roll an updated image for the speedup stuff i guess
<persia> Do you think /dev/input/mice is SRU-worthy?
<ogra> not sure, i'd like to hear other opinions and hear from testers first
<ogra> it might just work because of the module order i used for loading them
<ogra> (which indeed would indicate a worse bug in udev/modprobe somewhere)
<persia> Why?  /dev/input/eventx is populated in module loading order with increasing X.  The same is true to a lesser degree for /dev/input/mouseX and /dev/input/jsX (why don't we support multiple keyboards like that).
<persia> Well, not module loading order exactly, but hardware plug event order, which is strongly influenced by module loading order
<ogra> i guess because we dont have a /dev/kbd
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> we do
<persia> Well, it has been there in the past.  Just more confusion because X has it's own keyboard drivers (which is frustrating when one has an interesting keyboard-like device)
<ogra> and i assume thats exactly what hal-input will do
<ogra> my leyboard is /dev/input/event1 here
<ogra> *keyboard
<persia> Well, some of that.  There's still differences with the console, as it doesn't tend to use hal-input.
<ogra> it should then :)
<persia> Have you looked at the input-utils package?  I find it very useful when looking at input stuff.
<persia> Should a VC really depend on a running HAL?  That's an interesting direction.
<ogra> no, i just dug around in hal-device-manager
<ogra> err
<ogra> gnome-device-manager
<ogra> ... was renamed
<persia> Ah.  Install it: `lsinput` is a much simpler interface :)
<persia> MInd you, input-utils seems to need more root access than one would expect, but ...
<ogra> i think hal should as abstraction layer indeed handle all HW at some point
<ogra> and afaik devicekit is trying to solve that 
<persia> Mind you, `cat /proc/bus/input/devices can be similarly informative.
<persia> Yeah: having a central abstraction layer would be nice.  With a bit of extension, it ought be able to handle æ¼¢å­ entry cleanly in the console as well.
<ogra> well, thats what hal reads 
<ogra> not /proc but the equivalent in sysfs
<ogra> and /proc is suposed to vanish since linux 2.6.0 was released
<CShadowRun> Is there any devices that actually run ubuntu mobile nicely, and are released?
<CShadowRun> and ubuntu mobile is linux, so i can use most of my stuff i run on my pc on the mobile device (Providing it's not too resource intensive obviously)
<ogra> A samsung Q1 runs it over here, and yes, ubuntu mobile uses the standard ubuntu archive you can theoretically install everything from apache up to gnome
<CShadowRun> and is there any way to test ubuntu mobile without installing KVM, KVM seriously borked my computer last time i tried to use it.
<CShadowRun> nice :)
<CShadowRun> like, could i try it out in virtualbox? that'd be nice.
<persia> CShadowRun: Pretty much any device with an A100, A110, or Atom processor ought work fine.  Best experience for 1024x600 screens, and many things are optimised for the Samsung Q1U.
<ogra> i did try it in virtualbox, but you need to manually convert the image wiht qemu to a vbox image 
<persia> There's been talk about virtualbox images, but I don't know of any published ones.
<persia> ogra: How does one do that?
<ogra> and to get a proper screen size you need the vbox modules in the image
<ogra> there is a qemu command to convert it 
<CShadowRun> if someone could talk me through that it'd be nice
<CShadowRun> i'm really into the idea of ubuntu mobile :D
<CShadowRun> specially the python part, hehe
<CShadowRun> as i say, i tried to apt-get install KVM before, and my entire system froze while "setting up kvm", and then my package manager was completely broken, because every time i did the dpkg command to repair, it tried to install kvm again :x
<CShadowRun> after doing dpkg like 5 times it did finally go through, then i had to try another 2 times to remove the blasted thing because it broke virtualbox, lol
<ogra> qemu-img convert <your qemu image>.img <raw image of your quemu image>.bin 
<CShadowRun> cool
<CShadowRun> then what would i do with the output file?
<ogra> vditool DD <final vbox image>.vdi <raw image of your quemu image>.bin 
<CShadowRun> ok :)
<ogra> vditool is shipped with vbox
<ogra> its a two step thing and the resulting image is a good bunch bigger than the qemu one
<ogra> due to the step through the raw image
<CShadowRun> hehe providing it's not more than like 800GB...
<CShadowRun> lol
<ogra> heh, no
<ogra> but my vbox image is 5G vs the 2G qemu uses
<CShadowRun> while file do i want? mid-8.04.1-kvm.tar.gz ?
<ogra> hmm, no idea, i built my on image with the builder back then ... it was before release ... 
<CShadowRun> lol
<ogra> but i suspect the kvm one is right
<CShadowRun> kk :)
<CShadowRun> the only other options are a few mccaslin and a few menlow ones.
 * ogra slaps forehead 
<StevenK> CShadowRun: They are install images.
<CShadowRun> ok :)
<ogra> i just see vditool has a SHRINK command
<CShadowRun> so i want the kvm one then
<CShadowRun> ogra haha
<CShadowRun> downloading that now, it'll be done in 15 minutes :p
<ogra> well, diskspace is cheap :P
<persia> Well, not too cheap: there seems to still be demand for 2G devices.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> sadly 
<ogra> life would be easier without them ... 
<persia> Indeed, given that 4G solid state is available in 130g devices these days...
<ogra> at least my life :P
<CShadowRun> hehe, personally i probably would buy a 2G
<CShadowRun> and use a flash drive to install things on
<CShadowRun> because SSD is so much more expensive than flash
<CShadowRun> plus with flash you can carry a bunch with you :D
<persia> SSD usually is flash.
<CShadowRun> yea but they charge so much more for it compared to a USB flash stick
<CShadowRun> (because it's new, and cool.)
<persia> That will go away soon.  It's also just sizing.
<CShadowRun> aye :)
<ogra> yeah
<persia> Anyway, the issue is more with the base install.  4G gives enough space to not *require* extra flash devices for basic use.  With 2G one needs to mangle the install images to try to get enough local space.
<ogra> yeah :(
 * persia has never had a 2G device, so maybe isn't very sympathetic
<ogra> its a pain
<ogra> but i have still some ideas to save more space i didnt work on yet :)
<CShadowRun> lol the Q1U looks nice
<CShadowRun> i found a B-Grade one for $686
<persia> CShadowRun: It has the least useful keyboard I've ever seen on a device.  It's also larger than you would expect.  Other than that, it's pretty good.
<ogra> i must admt i can imagine to get used to it if i wuldnt have a coice
<ogra> *admit
<StevenK> But why would you want to? It would turn your hands into claws not even suitable for console gaming after prolonged use
<CShadowRun> lol i do admit it looks a bit ugly
<ogra> its all about finger memory and getting your thumbs right
<persia> The new Kohjinsha Atom boxes are awfully nice.  Smaller than the samsung, but in a convertible tablet form-factor (and still with ~7" 1024x600)
<StevenK> ogra: And not hitting four keys with your Western-size thumb?
<persia> ogra: You mean putting your thumbs in a pencil sharpener?
<ogra> i mean i cant imagine messaging 200 words in 10 min with my mobile with one finger, but i know people who can
<persia> StevenK: It's not just Western thumbs: I say that even thumbs on this side of the world rarely fit.
<ogra> persia, something like that :)
<CShadowRun> anything else thats "officially" (Or going to be officially) supported by ubuntu mobile?
<CShadowRun> apart from the Q1
<persia> ogra: I've seen people typing faster than that on mobiles, but the keys are bigger.
<CShadowRun> i'm quite a fan of the XDA execs look, something like that would be awsome :p
<ogra> right, they are 
<persia> CShadowRun: Anything with a Intel A110, A100, or Atom processor ought work.  With luck, things should work with VIA C7-M or AMD Geode.
<CShadowRun> i see
<CShadowRun> lol cool so it's happy in an EEEPC
<CShadowRun> EEE is so tempting.
<persia> Well, it's not happy yet.  It should work, but nobody has yet reported that it does.  On the other hand, nobody has explained why it doesn'T.
<persia> Perhaps it will do better on the Atom EeePCs
<CShadowRun> yea thats what i meant
<ogra> which are out since a week or so
<persia> Sure, but we've not a test report yet :)
<ogra> two guys in #ltsp got theirs on monday
<CShadowRun> huh? i found them available on google shopping already
<ogra> the 901 atom ? 
<CShadowRun> yes
<ogra> they didnt ship until very recently
<CShadowRun> well they appear to be up, theres a bunch of them up :)
<CShadowRun> and acer seem to make some too
<persia> Yep.  Now that they've shipped, they are shipping in volume.
<ogra> you could order them since a month or so at amazon though
<ogra> there re more to come
<ogra> honestly i would wait a bit for more beautiful and cheaper devices
<persia> That's the unfortunate thing about devices: it's always better to wait another few months (although it is nice to have something to use)
 * ogra is not an eee fan .... chepa keyboard and ugly case
<ogra> *cheap
<persia> Also in the unfortunate form factor: too big for the pocket, too small for serious use.
<CShadowRun> the sharp D4 looks nice
<ogra> if they at least were slim
<CShadowRun> thats the sorta thing i'd love to get my hands on :p
<CShadowRun> yea maybe
<persia> CShadowRun: That is a lovely device.  The keyboard feels nice.  Fits in the pocket.
<CShadowRun> sweet
<CShadowRun> thats the sorta thing i'd love to get my hands on
<persia> CShadowRun: Where are you?  It is likely one can be shipped.
<CShadowRun> UK
<ogra> heh, and runs vista by default
<CShadowRun> well yea, but that can be changed :D
<CShadowRun> there we go, download finished, i have a kvm file and a qcow2 file
<persia> Hmm.  Neither trisoft nor dynamism is shipping the D4 yet.  I don't know anyone else who ships to the UK.
<CShadowRun> aww.
<persia> Dynamism does have the kohjinsha SC though (although it's still a little big)
 * ogra twiddles thumbs ... 5 min to go fo rmy upload
<CShadowRun> yea thats quite nice :)
<CShadowRun> hmm, thats odd
<CShadowRun> i have virtualbox installed, but i don't appear to have vditool
<CShadowRun> ubuntu tells me to install the open source edition :p
<ogra> i have it in /usr/bin/vditool
<ogra> with the packages from the archive 
<persia> ogra: Which package provides /usr/bin/vditool for you?
<CShadowRun> nope, not there for me :(
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -S /usr/bin/vditool
<ogra> virtualbox-ose: /usr/bin/vditool
<CShadowRun> not even on my computer, did a search lol
<CShadowRun> i did a dpkg -L on my virtualbox, and it's not been installed.
<CShadowRun> must only be included in the OSE version :S
<ogra> but you use the nonfree version
<ogra> i never tried that 
<CShadowRun> ah
<CShadowRun> and these files that ubuntu came in arn't img files
<CShadowRun> one is a kvm one is a qcow2
<persia> qcow2 is the image file, and ought be able to be converted.
<CShadowRun> with qemu-img convert root.qcow2 raw.img
<CShadowRun> right?
<persia> I think so, but I've not done that, so I'm guessing.
<CShadowRun> now the only problem is vditool then :)
<persia> For that you probably need virtualbox-ose
<CShadowRun> i managed to find a copy of it on the web but it says i don't have libuuid.so.1
 * CShadowRun tries installing the dev package
<CShadowRun> i do have it though :/
<CShadowRun> it's a symlink in /lib that points to libuuid.so.1.2
 * ogra updates http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/hardy/ and prepares to finally get some sleep
<ogra> phew ... that was a long day today
<CShadowRun> hehe
 * ogra waves .... 
<ogra> night all
<CShadowRun> night :(
<cshadowrun> I installed the ubuntu mobile package on my laptop
<cshadowrun> but all it seems to do is like install a few new applications :(
<ogra> cshadowrun, what did you expect to happen ? 
<ogra> th eubuntu-mobile package is a metapackage used to pull in the default set of applicaions into a mobile imae build
<ogra> *image 
<ogra> (like all metapackages in ubuntu)
<cshadowrun> uh
<cshadowrun> i expected it to be like a diffrent desktop session or something
<cshadowrun> so i could try it out just like it was a phone
<cshadowrun> :(
<cshadowrun> thats what i wanna do
<ogra> then you would need ot install the whole image 
<cshadowrun> how do i do that?
<ogra> but that wuld wipe your disk, the installer in hardy isnt very intelligent about such stuff
<cshadowrun> thats fine
<cshadowrun> i wanna test it on my laptop which has no data on it anyway
<ogra> you can try the mccaslin image from the link in the channel topic
<cshadowrun> is it an iso?
<ogra> dd that to a usb key, boo from it and let the installer do its work 
<cshadowrun> oh
<ogra> nope, n .img file
<cshadowrun> how big usb key do i need?
<ogra> 1Gn shoudl suffice
<cshadowrun> i only have 512 :(
<cshadowrun> wonder if i could run ubuntu off this image file
<cshadowrun> s/ubuntu/virtualbox
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ says the mid-8.04.1-mccaslin-install-usb.img  is only 501
<ogra> so 512M might work
<cshadowrun> maybe
<cshadowrun> ubuntu says the total capacity is 495.2MB
<cshadowrun> :<
<ogra> formatted as ext2/3 ? 
<cshadowrun> nah, msdos
<ogra> note that this usually reserves 5% for root
<ogra> ah, k
<cshadowrun> maybe i can get this img file to load in virtualbox
<ogra> you need to grab the kvm image for that and convert it to a vbox image
<cshadowrun> oh cool i already got that :p
<cshadowrun> only problem is vditool doesn't work on 64bit
<cshadowrun> but i guess i can use my laptop to convert it
<ogra> right
<ogra> or build a 32bit chroot 
<cshadowrun> ?
<ogra> debootstrap --arch i386 hardy ./chroot
<ogra> that would build a chroot for 32bit in ./chroot 
<cshadowrun> that sounds complicated, i'll just use my laptop :p
<ogra> with: sudo chroot ./chroot you can enter that and execute 32bit apps inside
<cshadowrun> havn't been using linux for all that long.
<cshadowrun> nah it has like library issues
<cshadowrun> it says i have missing librarys (But i dont)
<Maverick2k> computer says no ;)
<cshadowrun> exactly :)
<ogra> computer is silly !
<ogra> :)
<Maverick2k> but chroot is not that hard, you will create a user space for 32 bits
<ogra> right
<Maverick2k> and within that console you could do anything for your image
<ogra> just takes a bit of time and diskspace but is handy for caese like the above
<cshadowrun> so what do i have to do with the ubuntu.kvm and root.qcow2 to run them in vbox?
<ogra> *cases
<ogra> you need to convert the .kvm image to a raw one with qemu 
<ogra> then convert the raw image to a vbox one 
<cshadowrun> qemu-img convert ubuntu.kvm raw.img right?
<cshadowrun> or qemu-img convert root.qcow2 raw.img
<cshadowrun> because theres 2 files in the kvm package o.o
<ogra> i think its the qcow, not sure though
<cshadowrun> kk doing that
<cshadowrun> what next?
<ogra> use vditool to make a vbox image from that
<cshadowrun> yea, now i meet with the vditool problem again :(
<cshadowrun> it's not included in the binary virtualbox, and if i download it from someplace it says i have a missing libuuid
<cshadowrun> which i don't, it's in /lib :x
<cshadowrun> ./vditool: error while loading shared libraries: libuuid.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory.
<ogra> its in the vitrualbox-ose package in the ubuntu archive
<ogra> sorry i never tried any other vbox verson
<cshadowrun> i have the binary version already installed
<cshadowrun> i needed usb support
<ogra> *version
<cshadowrun> the version of vditool on the website must be broken
<cshadowrun> theres no other way about it, my laptop has exactly the same files as my pc does, and it doesn't work on my pc.
 * cshadowrun sighs and splits raw.img into a bunch of parts so i can transfer with usb drive
<cshadowrun> urgh this job is gonna make me want to stab my eyes out with a fork.
<cshadowrun> 14 parts.
<cshadowrun> hey, anyone know how ubuntu mobile is on a Nokia N810 ?
<cshadowrun> is everything supported? (GPS, Wifi, Bluetooth)
<ogra> N810 has an ARM CPU
<ogra> arm is not yet supported by ubuntu
<ogra> (work i on the way though)
<ogra> *is
<cshadowrun> aww.
<cshadowrun> i wish there was a list of them lol
<ogra> list ? 
<cshadowrun> like a list of ubuntu mobile compatible devices
<ogra> h, yeah
<ogra> we should assembel something like that, but that needs more community involvement
<cshadowrun> yea
<ogra> i.e. people that are brave enough to trash their existing installs on their mobile devices and report back if it worked :)
<GrueMaster> currently, essentially anything with an x86 core can be supported.  Images are specific to Intel chipsets at the moment.
<ogra> right
<ogra> but we dont now which devices specifically
<cshadowrun> exactly :)
<ogra> beyond the handfull we develop on
<cshadowrun> it'd be nice to have a page with pictures and specs.
<ogra> feel free to trigger something by making a call for testers on the mailing list ;)
<GrueMaster> Don't need to know.  All you need to know is that Menlow images work with the Intel SCH500 chipset, and the Mccaslin images work with the 9xx series chipsets.
<ogra> and setting up a wikipage
<GrueMaster> specific hardware support can be tweaked in from there.
<ogra> right but isnt there out of the box
<ogra> people with not much tech knowledge will want to know if it just works for them
<cshadowrun> exactly my thoughts :D
<ogra> so an overview page would indeed make sense
<ogra> and having some brave people helping testing and developing the device specific patches would help even more
<GrueMaster> UME in it's current form is difficult to make out of the box support for a lot of systems.  It's too bad there isn't a better installation method.
<ogra> that will get better with intrepid
<ogra> and even if the ubiquity approach wouldnt work i have an installer thats working well and can easily be adjusted which i wrote for the classmate image i maintain since a year
<ogra> so *something* will be there in intrepid
<GrueMaster> cool
<ogra> (preferably ubiquity indeed, since its slick)
<cshadowrun> :)
<cshadowrun> does anyone here actually own a ubuntu MID? :)
<GrueMaster> I don't personally own one, but I work on them.
<cshadowrun> got any names of some devices that work nice currently so i can look them up? :)
<ogra> well, most deveopment is done on the samung Q1 ultra atm
<cshadowrun> aww, they arn't that nice though
<cshadowrun> and they are pretty expensive
<ogra> get 100000 people to buy one and they get cheaper :P
<cshadowrun> lmao
<ogra> thats the rules of the market :)
<GrueMaster> YOu could also use the Asus Eee PC.  It's almost the same hardware (sans touch screen).
<cshadowrun> oh well it does have a touch screen so thats a bonus.
<cshadowrun> yea, i want a handheld though
<cshadowrun> already got a pair of laptops :p
<ogra> btw did you get your vbox setup running ? 
<GrueMaster> Actually, it's about the same size, just in a clamshell with a fuller keyboard.
<cshadowrun> ogra still transfering the file from my laptop, LAN is really slow :(
<cshadowrun> 1:22 ETA :<
<ogra> phew
<cshadowrun> yea but i'm after something i can "Walk down the streetâ¢" with
<ogra> yeah, desktop PCs are not really handy for that especially the generator you need to pull behind you
<cshadowrun> yea, same with laptops
<cshadowrun> unless you wanna kinda balence the laptop on one hand and type with the other :x
<cshadowrun> or strap it to your arm.
<cshadowrun> lol
<cshadowrun> funny question, does the Q1U hard proper graphics drivers?
<cshadowrun> (So like, could you run compiz? xD)
<ogra> technically yes
<cshadowrun> compiz would be awsome on a device like that lol, i could be such a show off.
<cshadowrun> haha nice
 * ogra didnt try it though
<cshadowrun> you have a Q1U?
<ogra> i have one here but dont own it
<cshadowrun> ah
<cshadowrun> lol why does everyone have one but not own it?
<cshadowrun> is canocial giving them out to devs or something?
<ogra> to employees at least
<cshadowrun> nice
<ogra> else it would be hard to develop MID ... 
<ogra> you need some HW ot work on 
<ogra> *to
<cshadowrun> true
<cshadowrun> Q1U is a bit big though :(
<ogra> yeh
<cshadowrun> i wonder if an OQO would work
<ogra> i like it though, but the keyboard is misdesigned
<cshadowrun> OQO is pocket sized :p
<cshadowrun> yea the keyboard looks wrong.
<cshadowrun> the OQO is an amazing device though, you seen the OQO's?
<ogra> a while ago, yes
<cshadowrun> yea they are old but i havn't found anything as nice as an OQO yet
<cshadowrun> think ubuntu MID would work on an OQO?
<cshadowrun> come to think of it, think ubuntu full would work on an OQO? lol
<ogra> normal ubuntu likely would... its a plain c7
<cshadowrun> funky
<cshadowrun> OQO doesn't have a touch screen though, which makes me sad :(
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-06
<cshadowrun> ogra you still about?
<cshadowrun> i got that virtualbox image up
<cshadowrun> and it starts, but no GUI
<cshadowrun> complains about alot of modprobe stuff
<cshadowrun> and then gives me a login.
<ogra> hmm
<cshadowrun> whats the normal way of testing it? i could try doing it the normal way on my laptop
<cshadowrun> that would be a workaround :P
<cshadowrun> apparently my processor doesn't support hardware virtualisation, so there goes that idea
<ogra> you can just use qemu
<ogra> but it will be very slow
<cshadowrun> thats ok i guess
<ogra> kvm is just extending qemu with the CPU extensions
<cshadowrun> if i can do it without KVM i can try it on my mainpc
<cshadowrun> it's a c2q 2.4ghz with 4gb ram so that might speed things up :p
<cshadowrun> so how do i run it in qemu?
<cshadowrun> i have the qcow2 and ubuntu.kvm
<ogra> i think the ubuntu kvm is a script that executes qemu with the right options
<ogra> look into it
<cshadowrun> hmm
<cshadowrun> it runs kvm, not qemu
<cshadowrun> kvm -soundhw all -m 256 -hda root.qcow2 "$@"
<cshadowrun> i tried running it with qemu root.qcow2
<cshadowrun> got the same set of errors as i did with virtualbox
<cshadowrun> but this time i got a "blank" x session
<cshadowrun> (The cursor is a black X, and the background is that grey crosshair type thing)
<cshadowrun> oh wait nice there it is!
<cshadowrun> lol you really meant it'd be slow :P
<cshadowrun> i tried neverball and got like 0.1FPS, lol
<ogra> heh
<ogra> yeah that needs HW support
<CShadowRun> hehe
<persia> CShadowRun: You might want to look the kqemu-source package: it contains a kernel module that significantly increases qemu speed (although it's still slower than KVM).  I used it on one of my machines that didn't have kvm support with good results.
<CShadowRun> sounds intresting
<CShadowRun> installing it :)
<persia> CShadowRun: Note that you'll need to compile it locally: the precompiled modules aren't available.  I use module-assistant for that, but you may find you prefer a different method.
<CShadowRun> oh
<CShadowRun> how would i compile it?
<CShadowRun> i just installed the package from synaptic
<CShadowRun> ah it installed a tar.gz
<CShadowRun> configure make and install?
<persia> I think the easiest way is to install module-assistant.
<CShadowRun> already got it
<persia> IF that doesn't do it automatically (I've forgotten), you'll want to look at /usr/share/doc/kqemu-source/README (or something like that)
<persia> There should be an ncurses guided activity to handle the compilation and installation of the modules package.
<persia> (and yes, this should be easier)
<CShadowRun> yup its doing that now :)
<CShadowRun> there we go, firing up ubuntu mobile now :)
<CShadowRun> nah still as slow as before lol
<CShadowRun> and now i have to sleep, it's 6:15am here :p
<persia> Sleep well then :)
<rredd4> is there a hardware support list for ubuntu mid?
<persia> rredd4: None has been compiled.  It's known to work at least on the Samsung Q1U and the Kohjinsha SR series.  It ought work on anything with an Intel A100, A110, or Atom processor, and may well work on anything i586 or better.
<persia> Mind you, for the latter case, you may need to manually inject an alternate kernel: it depends on the hardware.
<rredd4> iphone 3g?
<persia> For best results, you'll want a 6" or 7" touchscreen.
<persia> No, that has an ARM processor.  Ubuntu Mobile only targets lpia right now, and the MID release has had issues described even for some models of the Eee.
<rredd4> ok, thanks
<rredd4> its good to hear that ubuntu is supporting mid devices tho@
<persia> Yeah, although it will be even nicer when more devices that meet the requirements are on the market :)
<asac> persia: is lool still on leave?
<persia> asac: I'm going to say "yes" because I've not seen him about, but I've no specific information in my current memory store.
<asac> persia: i think i need to push xulrunner-1.9 to PPA and midbrowser as well, is that correct?
<asac> e.g. is midbrowser not startable atm?
<persia> asac: You want to do an SRU for mobile.archive.ubuntu.com?
<asac> not sure. we had a security update which invalidates the patches we have in mobile
<persia> Yeah, it probably isn't, although I've not an up-to-date hardy MID installation running right now.
<StevenK> asac: Merge them, we need the security update
<asac> persia: so the procedure is to push it to PPA and then let you know?
<asac> i usually did that through lool, and last time there was confusion about the PPA purpose and so on.
<persia> asac: Yes, for anything locally patched in the PPA.  I think we can inherit updates from the main repos for things not already in the PPA.
<asac> persia: you think there might be someone who wants to learn how to do it ... to serve as a backup in the future?
<persia> Last I knew there were three authorised archive-admins for m.a.u.c, and two of them are here now :)
<terbo> hallo
<lool> Hey
<lool> asac: hola
<lool> asac: I'm coming back tomorrow
<lool> asac: BTW there's a holiday/leave calendar on canonicaladmin since we're both canonical staff  ;)
<lool> asac: We still have an old xulrunner-1.9 in ppa and mobile archive, as well as special but older langpacks
<lool> asac: AFAIK, langpacks and xulrunner still need corresponding updates to their forks in the ppa
<asac> lool: i told kylem how to update them before i left for the summit
<asac> (langpacks)
<asac> lool: did i upload a new midbrowser?
<asac> lool: anyway. now out for lunch
<lool> asac: sorry, not a lot in front of the computer; I'm not sure kyleN is caring for the UME langpacks -- he might be more interested in pushing langpacks to customer specific builds
<lool> asac: I didn't understand what you meant with new midbrowser
<asac> lool: he said he wanted to do that
<asac> lool: 0.3.0...
<asac> final
<lool> asac: Ok, we should ask him then; last time I checked the langpacks were out of date sadly
<asac> its was is needed to run with latest xulrunner 1.9.0.1
<asac> the only change it has is that it opens up maxVersion in application.ini
<lool> asac: Ok; so midbrowser and xulrunner-1.9 in ppa are ready?
<lool> Right, I saw your moblin-commits@ diffs
<lool> IIRC
<asac> let me check . i am not sure about the current state - thats why i asked ;)
<lool> s/diffs/diff
<asac> lool: ok midbrowser was uploaded 25th Jul
<asac> looks like thats the update
<asac> lool: xulrunner isnt in the ppa
<asac> so we need to do that
<lool> xulrunner-1.9: version 1.9.0.1+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.2+ume1 in http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu hardy main <= 1.9.0.1+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.3 in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hardy-security main
<asac> to get back the gconf backend feature
<asac> lool: oops
<lool> Looks like you have a newer version in -security of xulrunner-1.9 still (.3)
<asac> well. ... that means i uploaded it 
<asac> but the update that jdstrand pushed to security broke it again
<asac> ok
<asac> its just a version bump then
<asac> lool: why is there no xulrunner-1.9 on https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive ?
<lool> asac: Could you upload xulrunner-1.9 to u-m ppa?  I'd ask $someone to test them or test them myself and promote to main mobile archive
<asac> is it superseeded by the archive build?
<lool> asac: There is one
<asac> i dont see it https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive
<asac> but most likely its just in a different state
<lool> 1  â 50  of 65 results 
<lool> I see one published for hardy
<lool> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+archive/+index?start=50&batch=50
<asac> lool: ok. midbrowser neds to be copied to the ubuntu-mobile archive too i think
<asac> just remem ber that
<lool> asac: You mean archive.mobile.u.c?
<lool> asac: Sure, xulrunner and midbrowser at the same time
<lool> asac: But I'll wait for your green light when you push .3+ume1
<asac> lool: can you please test if the language packs still work with current midbrowser and xulrunner 
<asac> otherwise i will update all that are in ppa as well
<asac> or wait
<asac> can you just install midbrowser from ppa and tell me whats the version in application.ini
<lool> asac: Ok; I can't do all that today, will try to do that tomorrow
 * lool got to go now
<asac> lool: i will look and take care for the langpacks. just take your last days off ;)
<CShadowRun> i assume when the ARM version comes out the n810 is gonna be one of the first to be supported?
<ogra> unlikely
<ogra> n810 has tons of closed source HW in it ... 
<CShadowRun> :<
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-07
<wat> so
<wat> ubuntu mobilwe
<wat> mobile*
<wat> when will it be available ?_?
<wat> An iPhone flash for it would be hella cool'
<lool> Morning
<lool> asac: Hey, around?
<lool> asac: I tested langpacks and they work with up-to-date midbrowser and xulrunner; however some strings are missing (e.g. Characted Encoding in the menu)
<lool> Also parts of the Extensions dialogs aren't translated, but I don't know whether these were translated in the past
<lool> I have language-pack-gnome-fr 1:8.04+20080527.0ume2 and language-pack-gnome-fr-base 1:8.04+20080527
<lool> asac: On an unrelated topic, you might recall I poked you for comments on an evolution-rss patch; did I miss your reply?
<asac> lool: err, i think i replied in the bug 
<asac> lool: did you upgrade the language-pack-base and language-pack packages as well? which version do you have there?
<lool> asac: language-pack-fr 1:8.04+20080527 and language-pack-fr-base 1:8.04+20080527
<asac> those are too old
<asac> hmm
<asac> no
<asac> look good
<asac> what version do you see for xulrunner translation in the addons dialog?
<lool> asac: 1.9
<lool> asac: I don't have any language-pack-fr or language-pack-fr-base in ppa
<asac> lool: true 1.9.0.1 it should be though
<asac> what is in /usr/lib/xulrunner-addons/extensions/langpack*fr*/install.rdf `
<asac> ?
<asac> as version?
<lool>                em:version="1.9"
<asac> should be 1.9.0.1
<asac> please check if you have all from -updates
<lool> The only French langpack is language-pack-gnome-fr AFAICS
<asac> you need language-pack-fr and language-pack-fr-base
<lool> asac: Ah you want me to try the hardy-updates version of the langpacks?
<asac> you need them yes
<asac> is that an issue?
<lool> asac: It's fine if these weren't forked for ume
<lool> I have language-pack-fr 1:8.04+20080708 now
<lool> asac: Extension version is good now, but most items in the menu aren't translated anymore
<lool> Only "Encoding" is, the rest isn't (e.g. "new tab")
<lool> Oh I upgraded language-pack-gnome-fr but shouldn't have
<lool> asac: I think we need a language-pack-gnome-fr update in ppa
<asac> yes. i think all lang-packs need to be updated.
<asac> i have a call in a minute. will ping you when back
<lool> Ok
<lool> asac: Everything is fine now
<lool> asac: So we just need a refresh of language-pack-gnome-* in ppa AIUI
<asac> yes. we just need to put the midbrowser bits from ppa into the lates from -updates
<lool> asac: I'm happy to follow your instructions for the update as to allow me to repeat this for the next langpack updates
<asac> look in mozilla.tar.gz in ppa version
<asac> there is midbrowser/extensions directory
<asac> that one needs to be added to mozilla.tar.gz of -updates one
 * lool gets http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu/pool/main/m/midbrowser/midbrowser_0.3.0release-1~8.04.1.dsc and http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/language-pack-gnome-fr/language-pack-gnome-fr_8.04+20080708.dsc
<lool> Oh the data/mozilla.tar.gz from ppa's language-pack-gnome-fr
<asac> yes
<lool> asac: Kyle did some changes as well in ume2
<lool>   * Replace grabanddrag.jar and modify chrome.manifest accordingly to add
<lool>     grabanddrag fr (French) translations.
<lool> Do we need to repeat these as well?
<asac> those should be in mozilla.tar.gz alrewady
<asac> if you use the latest from ppa
<lool> asac: And you're repeating this for all langs?
<asac> yes
<asac> thats simple. just copy the usr/lib/midbrowser directory from ppa mozilla.tar.gz to new one
<asac> i think there even is no mozilla.tar.gz in new -gnome langpacks
<asac> so you can just copy it over
<asac> but take care that only usr/lib/midbrowser directory tree is in there
<lool> Ah some are ume1, I'll need to do this properly it seems
<lool> There are some differences in the tarballs, but I don't think they matter
<lool> drwxr-xr-x asac/asac         0 2008-06-10 22:39 ./usr/
<lool> drwxr-xr-x asac/asac         0 2008-06-10 22:39 ./usr/lib/
<lool> drwxr-xr-x kyle/kyle         0 2008-06-10 22:39 usr/
<lool> drwxr-xr-x kyle/kyle         0 2008-06-10 22:39 usr/lib/
<asac> shouldnt matter
 * lool pushes langpacks
<asac> uh
<asac> rock
<asac> lool: do they work?
<lool> asac: Well I see everything translated in the menu, and I see a midbrowser (fr) extension in the list
<lool> version 0.3.0
<lool> asac: is there a particular string I could use to check whether this works?
<asac> if the menu is completely translated
<asac> and the preferences dialog as well
<asac> then all should be fine
<lool> Yes, both of these are translated
<asac> lool: to QA this, go to every tab in the preferences.
<asac> if nothing is broken it should be fine
<asac> ask kylem to verify that there are no regressions for him maybe
<lool> asac: Oh I wanted to tell you about that: kyleN confirmed yesterday evening that he used your instructions for customer builds
<lool> Not for the ppa
<asac> look at ppa ... it was him uploading the last ones ;)
<asac> but well. i dont get why he didnt upload to ppa though
<lool> I don't think he cares directly about the ppa, nor are USG people pulling directly from it into their builds -- they snapshot from time to time and review the package updates
<lool> asac: Yes, I saw him as uploader of some updates, I don't reconcile the two things though
<lool> 22:22 < kyleN> lool.updating langpacks? first I herd of it
<lool> 22:22 < kyleN> heard
<lool> 22:23 < kyleN> I did some manual modifications to get a required build out
<lool> 22:23 < lool> 12:25 < asac> lool: i told kylem how to update them before i left  for the summit
<lool> 22:24 < kyleN> lool, he meant me, but what I did was a one time update needed  for a custom project
<lool> asac: On another topic, persia wondered whether liferea would need an update at the same time as xulrunner >= 1.9.0.1; I suggested that probably not as liferea wasn't updated in hardy-security/-updates
<lool> asac: But in the end we thought we would double-check with you :-)
<asac> lool: if its not in "Breaks:" then it shouldnt be required from what i can tell
<lool> asac: Great
<lool> asac: Re: GNOME #541872 thanks for your comment, I didn't see it as I wasn't subscribed to the bug, sorry; I am now
<ubottu> Gnome bug 541872 in general "crash in Evolution Mail and Calendar:" [Blocker,Assigned] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=541872
<asac> lool: try to start it ;)
<asac> (liferea)
<lool> asac: Yeah it WFM
<asac> lool: the patch?
<lool> asac: liferea
<asac> ah
<persia> Team meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 5 minutes
<persia> Err. 4 :)
<lool> persia: So you wanted to clear up my thoughts on squashfs support in ubiquity?
<persia> lool: Re: GTK support for em: That actually doesn't help very much: it makes apps bigger in high-DPI environments.
<persia> Getting proper resolution independence is about creating guidelines for size, and checking the current environment for display.
<persia> As an example, if I've a 596 x 480 viewport (default Ubuntu viewport at 640x480), I need to pick a size for a terminal that fits there, which means picking the right font size, etc.
<ogra> right
<lool> persia: I think GTK support for em is just the start
<ogra> we need a 480px min height policy :)
<persia> If I then define the window decoration in "em" units, I have even less to play with when I'm using a 200DPI device.
<lool> persia: It will force Gtk+ application writers to think about their UI size-independence, and move them away of pixel driven UI sizes
<lool> The point here is that you can nicely "scale the application by changing the font size"
<persia> lool: Well, not being pixel driven helps, but swapping pixels for ems is actively harmful for the high-dpi low-resolution environment.
<lool> This is a huge step forward IMO
<ogra> but if the window has a min height of 600px set you dont gain much
<persia> Yeah, at least is means there is some thought involved.
<lool> It moves the problem to "scaling ems" for us, which can be done centrally
<lool> The kludge will be much smaller to maintain :-)
<ogra> or graphics content forces the 600px
<persia> True, although I wouldn't want everyone to become as myopic as I from looking at the results :)
<persia> Anyway, about the installer.
<lool> Anyway, there's no perfect solution; you can have a 24" screen in front of you, or at the other end of a room, and you will have different requirements for the displayed size of apps and fonts
<persia> Basically, if the HW has sufficient secondary storage to support expected regular use without unionfs, it makes life *lots* easier not to install that.
<persia> So, for 4G+ devices (based on Ubuntu Desktop HW requirements), it's best to just copy the contents of the squashfs onto a target partition on the device.
<persia> That gives us small size increase for updates, simplified support matrix, compatibility with alternate metas for people who want to switch between -mid and -mobile, etc.
<persia> But, for devices without that much secondary storage, such a model quickly becomes unsuitable.  Just unpacking the livecd takes about 2G.
<persia> With the smaller seed, we can probably take that down to 1.5G, but it's still insufficient for basic use.
<persia> (not enough space for user data)
<persia> So, we'd need to have a squashfs.
<lool> persia: Ack; that's actually the reason hardy's images install squashfs
<lool> (in UME)
<persia> It's not reasonable to ask these devices to build such a squashfs at install time, because it's painfully time consuming, and requires lots of disk space somewhere.
<persia> (Yes, I wanted to do it that way, but I was unable to find any believeable reason it would work)
<persia> So, the trick is to use the squashfs used on the installer image itself.
<ogra> right
<lool> Sure, I came so far
<ogra> which is since we use livefs.sh for building it already configured in an ideal way
<persia> So, what one does is to copy the install image livefs onto the device, and construct it as a unionfs.
<lool> Agreed; that's the only way I imaginated it as well
<ogra> ubiquity currently only supports the 4G case
<persia> Where this gets tricky is that the configuration of the livefs for the install image, for the installed image, and the contents of the root filesystem for the >4G case are all subtly different.
<ogra> (copy content)
<ogra> huh ? 
<ogra> they arent
<persia> Yes they are.  Hold on...
<ogra> only the fs setup is
<ogra> you need to have the copy/setup unionfs etc stage before the config stage 
<persia> config stage?
<ogra> then ubiquity can do everything the same way in both cases
<ogra> applying the config 
<ogra> for the target content 
<persia> ubiquity doesn't apply a config: it just copies the contents of the live image.
<ogra> and configures /target according to your preseeding
<lool> So I still think we can do the same thing in the two cases
<persia> ogra: Except you don't run most of d-i, because you've already got that in the livefs.
<lool> Instead of formatting and copying files to the new partitions, you partition, setup unionfs, and copy only differing files over
<ogra> right
<persia> lool: Well, not quite, because you need to support the reset-to-original-state use-case.
<ogra> rm -rf /cow/* ?
<persia> Anyway, please object when I get to that point, rather than getting ahead :)
<ogra> and reapply the defaults
<persia> So, the first interesting difference is between the installer livefs and the installed filesystem for the >4G case.
<persia> ubiquity has a hook to remove the things one doesn't want post-install, such as ubiquity itself.
<ogra> and unused langpacks
<persia> (it's a little odd to have a "click here to install" button on an installed system)
<persia> Yes, and unused langpacks, and other bits.
<ogra> right, we need to exclude that in livefs.sh
<ogra> and apply at bootime
<lool> persia: Sure
<lool> That's all possible in the target fs in the same way i would guess
<lool> You might want to exclude this from the original squashfs though
<persia> Right, it's just python to adjust the final image before first boot.
<ogra> right
<ogra> that should be handled by the image builder 
<persia> Where this gets especially interesting is when you consider the same situation for the 2G case.
<persia> The same model doesn't work, because the stuff to be removed would only be marked unused in the overlay, and get restored when the overlay is wiped on device reset.
<ogra> the image builder should a) build a squashfs without these contents for us ... b) set up a unionfs at buildtime c) copy all langpacks and ubiquity inot that 
<ogra> and then copy cow.img and squashfs.img into the dd'able image 
<persia> You're getting ahead again :)  Precisely.
<ogra> (btw we use aufs now, no uniofs available anymore, we should adjust our wording ;) )
<ogra> persia, the above works for both models
<persia> The last interesting thing is that the squashfs to be deployed in the 2G case should have an initramfs pre-configured to continue to use squashfs as it gets adjusted.
<lool> persia: Why would you reset the overlay?
<persia> This then needs to be adjusted to not look that way in a final state in the >4G case.
<ogra> right 
<ogra> but thats a single initramfs script 
<persia> lool: To restore the device to "factory settings".  It's an OEM requirement that is commonly used in consumer devices.
<ogra> well, have a spare partition where you tar up the content of /cow 
<persia> Personally, I find it useless, but since it's not that hard to do if we're fiddling around to handle splitting out ubiquity and langpacks, etc. anyway, there's no reason not to do it.
<ogra> the reset funtion wipes /cow and extracts the tar back
<ogra> no magic
<persia> Mind you, I'm never likely to get a <4G device again (even the thing I use for a phone as >4G), but for those that do...
<ogra> we need something like mem=256M dfor disks in the kernel :P
<persia> ogra: No magic, as long as we make sure that the squashfs as deployed exactly matches the environment we want on device reset.
 * ogra is joking indeed
<ogra> persia, my expectation would be that we can offer install to external devices .. so you could install to a 2G USB key 
<ogra> for testing purposes
<ogra> all that is done by my classmate installer already we can steal code from there as we want 
<ogra> (the same counts for the image building process, all the above exists)
<ogra> sadly the installer is 100% shell ... so for ubiquity that needs lots of adjustment
<persia> ogra: Absolutely: it's not for testing purposes, but rather for support of various devices.  I've two different devices that have very small flash as primary secondary storage and moderate sized secondary secondary storage.  I'd probably want /boot on the flash, but install to the HD or slower flash (depending on which of my devices is being considered)
<persia> That means having the ability to use a partition tool and install to arbitrary partitions on the target device, including, if so desired, USB keys.
<lool> persia: That 'reset to factory settings' feature is new to me, and seem completely orthogonal
<ogra> for 2G we shuld have a fixed partitioning scheme anyway
<persia> lool: orthogonal to what?
<persia> Essentially, implementation only means that we don't leave a crufty /cow at install time.
<persia> (or rather, immediately post-install)
<lool> persia: Orthogonal to squashfs installation
<persia> Not leaving a mess seems more technically correct to me anyway.
<persia> lool: Remember that the filesystem as viewed from the installer is not the same as the filesystem as viewed from the installed system (or oughtn't be).
<lool> To me it just sound like in both the squash and non-squash cases you need to record the initial state of the system in the less space possible to allow restoring to this factory state
<persia> To do this, we either need to double-layer the installer image, or fake deletion on the target device.
<persia> In the non-squash case, there is no "reset" option available.
<persia> Anything more complicated than wiping /cow isn't worth doing.
<lool> persia: Sure, so we have state A: booted live system for installation, state B: initially installed system, state C: current system, and you want a way to reset from C to B; this is orthogonal to whether B and C are squashfs based or not
<persia> lool: No.
<lool> Just like the way state A is implemented, except that if it's not squashfs based, it's hard to generate
<persia> In the squashfs case, you should be able to get from C to B by clearing the overlay.  In the non-squashfs case, you need to somehow track initial system state.
<lool> I disagree
<lool> You make up that requirement
<lool> There's no reason you need to implement restore to factory by clearing the overlay
<persia> lool: You'd rather that the initially installed system in the squashfs case required addition information to be in place in the overlay to work cleanly?
<lool> You can have a double overlay and you lose no space
<lool> That is, install squashfs read-only on partition 1, setup an overlay for state B in partition 2, and setup partition 3 as user overlay
<persia> OK.  Do you agree or disagree with the statement that the initially installed system should have only that information that is required to be installed.
<lool> You can clear partition 3 to restore to factory
<lool> I don't understand your question
<persia> Right.
<persia> OK.  My contention is that in the squashfs case, the initial overlay should be compeltely empty.
<lool> I don't think you need that requirement
<persia> Maybe not, but is it better to have it be non-empty?
<lool> It's desirable that it be small, but it wont be empty unless the squashfs is what gets used initially
<persia> So, we make the squashfs be what gets used initially, no?
<lool> I think generating the squashfs is out of the question, and having zero customization would mean creating one CD per install
<lool> Well we should make it as close as possible (by excluding ubiquity for instance), but we wont ever make it exactly what gets installed unless there are no installation options
<persia> Well, there's oem-config...
<lool> Typically, I don't see how you'll manage to not install the langpack in some target overlay, unless you have on squashfs for language
<persia> True.  I don't imagine any sane end-users will ever use the squashfs option.  I'm only bothering to consider it because ogra wants it for cmpc stuff.
<lool> Well it's an interesting option for devices with little disk space
<lool> I find it challenging to support, and hence interesting
<ogra> i dont want to see any cmpc ever again
<persia> As a result, I don't mind only having one langpack, as from an OEM perspective, devices should be pre-installed with the language for the target market.
<lool> ogra: haha
<ogra> what makes you think i would want it for cmcp :)
<ogra> but i am sure yu will still find devices with 2G disks out there 
<persia> ogra: OK.  You pointed out that things like cmpc needed it.  Perhaps "want" is too strong a word.
<lool> ogra: http://images.google.fr/images?q=classmate+pc
<ogra> *like* :)
<persia> (don't click that)
<lool> It's work safe I promess!
<ogra> heh
<ogra> MY EYES !
<persia> you clicked, didn't you.
<lool> Before building a squashfs aware installer, we should find some cmpc-protection goggles for ogra 
<persia> Right, which is why the plan is to first finish the non-squashfs aware installer, and then look at the possibility of having one.
<lool> persia: That's a reasonable way of ordering your priorities if you ask me
<ogra> persia, i couldnt resist :)
<persia> lool: Mind you, I won't complain if other things get in the way of a squashfs installer, but if one is done, I think it ought be optimised for the OEM case, as I feel very strongly that the price of disks and flash is low enough that most end-users would prefer a larger device if available, especially the class of end-users that would install an alternate OS.
<persia> (and larger devices *are* available: lots of 10G stuff out now, and 20 is becoming less uncommon)
<lool> persia: That's a sensible way to present it; however you need to consider the possibility of preinstalling Ubuntu on the devices too
<lool> Typically, our USG team might have interest in such support
<persia> For flash devices, it's still 4/8/16/32 (and mostly 4/8), but those are still 4.
<persia> lool: Sure.  The USG team would be an example of a target audience who would need an OEM-optimised installer.
 * ogra likes to note *again* that the squashfs installer exists already as cmpcinstaller ... its work of one afternoon to rip out the cmpc cpecifics there ... its not gtk based but if we need t it can be used worst case 
<persia> For the >4G case, it's more interesting to look at the ways that e.g. System76 or Dell do installs.
<persia> ogra: There's MIC too, so using the cmpc installer isn't *worst* case.
<ogra> heh
<lool> Hmm we'll need some MIC goggles too
 * persia has arranged for a special MIC visor, and is willing to be responsible for all the necessary looking at it whilst trying to make it less likely to be used.
<persia> Anyway, I need to prep for my next meeting.  Any last minute questions about the ideas for squashfs installers?
<persia> (or catch me another day)
<lool> persia: I think we covered the side questions
<lool> persia: Thanks!
<persia> lool: Happy to share: it's been something I've thought a lot about, but don't have much code for, so can't just reference something.
<ogra> go coding !
<ogra> :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-08
<samkorn> Can ubuntu mobile be embedded on the nintendo ds
<BenLauDC> no
<Moo--> Is it possible to run MID on OpenMoko?
<persia> Moo: I'm not sure I understand your question.  Do you mean the Ubuntu MID images on the OpenMoko hardware?
<persia> In that case, no: the OpenMoko hardware is ARM, and the Ubuntu MID images are for lpia.
<Moo--> persia: ah, that was what I was looking for, thx
<sn9> how much ram is needed for UME? can it run well in 128M? 64M? 32?
<persia> sn9: Works best at 512, can do at 384, and might work at 256, but in a degraded fashion.
<persia> Most testing was with 512 or 1G
<sn9> yeesh, what a hog
<persia> The focus has more been about experience than making it work on small hardware.
<persia> This is perhaps nice because some bits look nice.
<sn9> most MIDs are small
<persia> Unfortunately it means that almost nobody has the right target hardware.
<sn9> yep
<persia> True, but most MIDs are ARM as well, and Ubuntu MID doesn't work on ARM: it's lpia only.
<sn9> is it still lighter than netbook-remix?
<persia> No idea: I've not tried netbook-remix.  That said, I suspect it's smaller, just because I've heard that netbook remix uses most of the standard desktop apps.
<sn9> so, regular ubuntu and xubuntu are actually the lightest flavors?
<persia> No.  I think Ubuntu MID is slightly lighter than Ubuntu Desktop (which I'd not want to run with <1G).
<persia> I've not compared with Xubuntu.
<sn9> i am running Ubuntu Desktop on this laptop with 256, and it's also running kqemu in the background with 128 set aside for the UME kvm image
<persia> sn9: And does that work?
<sn9> yep
<persia> Nifty.
<sn9> the UME is slow, though
<persia> Lots of swapping?
<sn9> only if i open too many things at once
<sn9> like OOo
<persia> Maybe that's why I think everything has high RAM requirements :)
<sn9> the UME kvm image has a bad menu.lst file, btw
<sn9> it's valid, but incorrect
<persia> Incorrect?  Which image did you install?
<sn9> the kvm one
<persia> Oh.  Quite possibly.
<sn9> easy to fix, though
<persia> With ubuntu-mobile-builder, or by hand?
<sn9> fixing the file? easy by hand
<persia> Yeah :)
<persia> It's getting the code that generates the code that generates the file to do it right that's tricky.
<sn9> here are the things wrong with the file:
<sn9> 1) splashimage= line missing
<sn9> 2) hiddenmenu uncommented, hiding the splash
<sn9> 3) kopt line missing options "acpi=force snd.cards_limit=0"
<sn9> those options are needed for the lpia kernel to work right in kvm/qemu
<persia> Hmm.  Worked for me in kvm without any changes.  Are you using the 8.04.1 image?
<sn9> yep
<sn9> come to think of it, those options best always be used for the lpia kernel anywhere
<shane_> Hello, does a Dell Axim X5 32mb support Ubuntu MID?
<shane_> Would anyone like to take a guess
<sn9> i would guess no
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-09
<snez> hi, do you guys know of any device that I can buy that comes with ubuntu mid pre-installed?
<sn9> probably not, but you can install on the samsung thing
<oviri> hi
<The_Warlock> is it possible to install ubuntu on my nokia n series?
<abhi_> what is difference between maemo and ubuntu-mobile
<abhi_> also moblin
<persia> abhi_: Depends on the viewpoint.  They are all separate projects, but share some code.
<abhi_> persia, : does moblin project use ubuntu-mobile as its base?
<persia> As I understand it, maemo is the environment designed for installation on Nokia tablets, moblin is a reference implementation for lpia^based devices, and ubuntu-mobile is the flavour of ubuntu desgined for small tablets and devices.
<persia> abhi_: The specific relationship has been confusing to me for some time: I believe both moblin and ubuntu-mobile have shared code, and which is based on the other seems to depend on which press release you read.
<abhi_> persia, : you are correct. it is very confusing. i read at maemo.org that maemo is a s/w stack over which applications are build just like google android.
<persia> That is also true.
<persia> Basically, there's a lot of software out there.
<persia> Most of this is free software
<abhi_> yah
<persia> Different groups tend to pull different software together into a base stack to build a working environment.
<persia> Often those groups will collaborate, so improvements in one place often also go to other places.
<persia> I know that Ubuntu Mobile pulls some stuff from maemo, and some from moblin, and some from the rest of Ubuntu, and generates some images.
<persia> Where stuff is pulled, there are often patches sent back.
<persia> I suspect both maemo and moblin occasionally pull from each other, and possibly from ubuntu-mobile.
<abhi_>  i think this will lead to again fragmentation in mobile linux
<persia> I think there is less fragmentation than there once was: in the beginning people didn't share as much.  As we share more, we get closer.
<persia> I would like to see something like we have with Desktop: lots of distributions that are basically just themes and package selection and timing, over essentially the same base code.
<abhi_> few days back ago when i checked the moblin site it has a reference to ubuntu-mobile but today i d't find any reference to ubuntu-linux. that's why i got confused
<abhi_> persia: if an applications is written for gtk+ will it run in ubuntu-mobile/moblib/maemo
<persia> Probably.  I haven't tried maemo or moblin: my mobile linux experience is limited to QTopia and ubuntu-mobile.
<abhi_> ok
<persia> At least for ubuntu-mobile, most things work, but if the code isn't adjusted for libhildon, the menus don't look right.
<abhi_> i think hildon is the ui manager.
<abhi_> which internally uses gtk+
<persia> Right, but hildon applications don't have a parent window (they get that from the hildon desktop), and the way in which menus are displayed is different.
<abhi_> persia: umeguide.net says ubuntu-mobile uses hildon but ubuntu.com say, User interface in HTML, Flash, Clutter, Python with GTK, C/C++ with GTK and Java. what is that
<persia> What?  Where on ubuntu.com?
<abhi_> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile
<abhi_> did you see it
<persia> Now I have.  I'm a little confused, because that doesn't match my device (which *is* running hildon).  Perhaps it is also true.
<abhi_> man it is so confusing. guy from ubuntu help us
 * persia is an Ubuntu developer :)
<abhi_> persia: r u ubuntu developer?
<persia> Anyway, I do know that some people have done interesting things with clutter and flash based on Ubuntu Mobile, which is why I say "perhaps it is also true".
<abhi_> persia: cutter and flash run within hildon or they have their own framework
<persia> See, "framework" is one of those words I don't like.  It somehow implies some complex set of relationships that may not apply to any given piece of software.
<persia> Anything launched from within hildon-desktop runs under hildon-desktop supervision (even if the app itself is not hildonised).  That said, I think people run flash within hildon and run clutter instead of hildon desktop (but perhaps with hildonised apps), but I'm not sure.
<abhi_> ok, i think so
<abhi_> i found that these three projects uses hildon ui manager with their own customized kernel and applications. 
<persia> That matches my understanding.
<abhi_> i think this will have less fragmentation unlike gnome and kde
<persia> Right.  It's different groups experimenting with different defaults, application mixes, etc. from a common base.
<persia> As I said before, there's a lot of sharing going on.  I know there are moblin and maemo developers who spend time here, and that there are ubuntu-mobile developers who spend time in moblin and maemo communications channels.
<abhi_> this is good for mid developers that their applications can be ported to different devices.
<abhi_> thanks persia
<otta> hoij anybody there?
<otta> whats that chan all about?
<otta> may be nothin
<shishirm1> hi guys
<persia> shishirm1: Hey.
<shishirm1> i am trying to run hildon desktop
<shishirm1> on my tablet 
<shishirm1> khojinsha sh series
<shishirm1> i have ubuntu 8.04 installed
<shishirm1> kindly tell me how to replace gnome and get hildon-desktop instead
<shishirm1> ï»¿persia: hi can u tell me??
<sn9> is the gnome a fresh install?
<sn9> shishirm1: ?
<shishirm1> yep it is
<sn9> reinstall
<shishirm1> i have installed ubuntu 8.04 not the UMe
<sn9> use either the alternate or server installers
<shishirm1> i mean mobile edition'
<sn9> not the desktop
<persia> shishirm1: I've the SR series.  You need to install the McCaslin image from the URL in the /topic
<shishirm1> i have already installed the desktop and just wanna convert the gnome to hildon
<sn9> or you could do that
<sn9> to convert, you would need to uninstall all packages
<shishirm1> i dont wanna install a fresh bcoz i just wanna try the hildon UI first
<shishirm1> of wat?
<shishirm1> of gnome?
<persia> You don't want to do that.  For Hardy, proper hildonisation is only available for the lpia architecture, and the desktop is only available for the i386 architecture (for things that can be installed on the Kohjinsha SH series).
<persia> You really want the lpia arch, and for that, you want the McCaslin image from Ubuntu MID.
<sn9> if you want to try, use a virtual machine
<persia> You can install any other software you want on it later
<persia> (and no, don't try the virtual machine on the Kohjinsha: you need to hand-compile kqemu-source, and even then it's not fast enough)
<shishirm1> ï»¿persia: so there is no way i can try hildon without cleaning my disk as the usb install suggests??
<sn9> persia: if one installs only ubuntu-minimal with d-i, what's wrong with "sudo apt-get --install-recommends install ubuntu-mobile" ?
<persia> shishirm1: You can install the hildon-desktop package, etc., but you won't get as many hildon-enabled applications on i386, so you won't see the full effect.
<shishirm1> thats fine but is there a way to atleast have alook??
<persia> sn9: Well, firstly there was a bit of a mess with the Hardy release, so some 60 packages got special patches in a PPA and aren't available from the regular repos (this will be fixed for intrepid)
<shishirm1> i just wanna feel how good it is
<shishirm1> i am running a vista and ubuntu dual boot
<persia> Also, there's some stuff that's only hildonised on lpia, but not for i386.  The d-i for lpia just got uploaded Friday, so one can't install hardy ubuntu-minimal on lpia with an alternate CD.
<sn9> persia: ppa's are built for 3 arch'es
<persia> sn9: Yes, but debian/rules has things like if DEB_BUILD_ARCH == lpia to enable hildon.
<shishirm1> i just wanna have a sneak peak into hildon with screwin up anythinig
<sn9> ah
<persia> sn9: Yes, that's not the right way to do it, but...
<shishirm1> i mean without
<shishirm1> can u guys please tell me how to do it??
<persia> shishirm1: Do you have other hardware available?  You might be able to run a virtual environment there.
<shishirm1> i do have a desktop
<sn9> persia: where is the lpia d-i?
<shishirm1> but i have a very slow internet and it takes a lot of time to get stuff downloaded i mean the vm package
<sn9> shishirm1: the vm image took me half an hour to d/l over 3Mb/s
<shishirm1> i have a 256kb/s
<persia> shishirm1: Hmm.  The VM package is probably best.  Alternately, if the install on the SH is really new, you might just reinstall the desktop later if you don't like the MID release.
<persia> Yeah, that's painful :(
<persia> sn9: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/debian-installer/20080522ubuntu9
<sn9> intrepid only?
<persia> sn9: Yep.
<persia> Also, looks like it's not actually built for lpia yet, although the code permits it.
<shishirm1> ya see doesnt it work the way it works for other desktop environments?
<persia> shishirm1: RIght now, no, not at all.  Maybe for intrepid.
<shishirm1> i mean if i have a kde and gnome on ubuntu then b4 i login it gives me a choice to choose what desktop environment i wanr
<shishirm1> want
<shishirm1> doesnt it work that way??
<sn9> persia: is it possible to use image creator to install to real hardware?
<persia> shishirm1: No, it doesn't work that way today.
<persia> sn9: Which image creator?  Moblin Image Creator?
<sn9> the one for ume, yeah
<shishirm1> oh god then i have to remove gnome get hildon try hildon then remove hildon??
<persia> shishirm1: No, you have to actually completely reinstall.  For a Hildon desktop, you want to run the lpia architecture.  For a GNOME desktop you want to run the i386 architecture.
<persia> sn9: As long as you don't mean the one for the virtual image builds, one can use it to create an image that one can copy to a USB stick and install on actual hardware.
<shishirm1> ok got it
<sn9> persia: what's the diff?
<persia> Personally, I find that this takes a painfully long time, and so I prefer to use the pre-built images.
<persia> sn9: MIC is a python tool that wraps a number of nested chroot structures, and does some installer stuff.  Even if you're on hardy, you'll want the intrepid one, because the hardy one can't upgrade kernels post-install without manual intervention.
<sn9> what kind of manual intervention?
<persia> virtual-mobile-builder is based on ubuntu-vm-builder, and just adds some customisation and packages.
<persia> Basically, it installs a menu.lst with an md5sum that doesn't match the ucf md5sum for menu.lst.  You can get a version for hardy fromhttp://archive.mobile.ubuntu.com/pool/um-ppa-hardy/main/m/moblin-image-creator/ 
<persia> (without the bug)
<sn9> so, virt-mob-build > mic?
<persia> Well, no.
<sn9> for real hardware
<persia> MIC does poorly at creating images for use in qemu or kvm.  virtual-mobile-builder doesn't create an image that can be installed on hardware.
<sn9> define "can be installed"
<persia> sn9: Well, you can't dd a qcow2 file to a disk.  Further, if you could, you'd need to then move the disk to the target device (as there isn't any installer wrapper: it's just there).
<sn9> it's qcow only? no raw?
<persia> Fruther, it doesn't construct a squashfs and unionfs, so it requires more physical disk space than an install from MIC or the available images.
<persia> Lastly, I'm not sure that the driver selection used for the virtual environment matches any hardware, so it may not boot after having been manually put on the target device.
<persia> So, I guess you could install it on real hardware, but it would be a very painful experience.
<sn9> ok, so what are mic's deficiencies wrt vm's?
<sn9> persia: ?
<persia> Erm.  It requires about 3 times as long to build anything, it does many strange things with chroots that involve interesting mounting behaviours (some things are never unmounted, and some things get unmounted unexpectedly), it does several interesting things to configuration files, it is a GUI application that must run as root (with python-gtk), I'll stop there.
<persia> Oh, and the resulting images don't boot in KVM or qemu.
<sn9> don't boot because...?
<persia> I forget why, but they didn't, so someone wrote virtual-mobile-builder.
<sn9> how long does the average image take in mic vs. vmb?
<sn9> persia: this is the last question, i promise. ^^^
<persia> sn9: Depends on your bandwidth and local processor speed.  30 minutes to a day I'd day (for more than a day, you need to upgrade if you're creating your own images).
<persia> Again, I find it easier to use the provided images, unless you need to customise something pre-install.
<sn9> so, vmb = 30 min, mic = a day. gotcha; thanx
<persia> Well, no.  I've built MIC images in only a couple hours, and had virtual-mobile-builder images not complete within my patience for a lower amount of bandwidth and processor (I was trying on the SR over WiFi at a conference).
<sn9> so, vice-versa?
<persia> In general, MIC will take two or three times as long as virtual-mobile-builder, but both are highly dependent on the local processor and bandwidth available.
<persia> Note that one doesn't use MIC and virtual-mobile-builder for the same target, so the tool selection is based on where you plan to use it, rather than on which tool you like.
<sn9> i'm toying with the idea of making an image for a p2-core celeron
<sn9> 500MHz or so
<sn9> to be installed by netboot
<sn9> (pxe)
<persia> Yeah, that might need a special image.  I'd recommend trying the McCaslin image first, just because it's already compressed (so less to download), and doesn't need building.
<sn9> install image, or tarball?
<persia> I'd start with the install image.
<persia> The tarball might shorten the MIC time, although importing it might be tricky if you're not familiar with MIC.
<sn9> thanx
<pratz> can someone help me with a very silly newbie doubt?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-10
<Dlareh> 'lo everyone, this a decent place to ask laptop buying advice?  I got a thinkpad configured: http://bayimg.com/image/fakjmaabc.jpg ... which I'm serously considering buying right now...
<Dlareh> it has an Nvidia 9300M, and one particular thing I'd like to do is be able to play some relatively simple games like NWN2 and CIV IV under WINE.  But I'll be doing a lot of general-purpose work-and-school-related stuff as well, of course...so just looking for an overall good deal
<Dlareh> I'm rather fond of thinkpads' sturdy keyboards and the iconic red trackpoint, but...any alternative suggestions?
<landley> dlareh: I have one of the Dells that came preinstalled with ubuntu, and have been fairly happy with it.
<landley> Unfortunately, Dell laid off around 5000 people over the past month.
<Dlareh> what're the graphics on that system?
<landley> Buying the extended warantee might not be the best move.
<landley> Intel 945 I think.
<landley> The new intel chip that the hired Keith Packard to write open source drivers for.
<landley> (Where "new" hear is "last year". :)
<Dlareh> hehe, well I don't think it's in the same league as the nvidia 9300m
<landley> http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
<landley> Dlareh: A) nvidia is the only remaining 3D vendor to have closed source drivers.
<landley> B) the strategy going forward for both Intel and AMD is to integrate 3D on the die with the processor.
<landley> You know how everything's gone dual core?
<landley> And they'd like to go quad core but most software won't take advantage of it?
<landley> Well putting 3D acceleration on the die along with a couple cores is something most modern software _will_ take advantage of.
<landley> It also means you can use 256 megs or so of L2 cache as texture memory shared with the CPU.
<landley> The result is _fast_.
<Dlareh> cool, this dell has an 8400M at a similar price...
<landley> And it leaves nvidia with nowhere to go.
<landley> They're trying to retreat into physics engines, but so far I haven't heard of anybody biting...
<Dlareh> well, that's the future, right?
<Dlareh> I'm looking for something I can buy before September ; )
<landley> *shrug*  I tend to do new research when I need a new laptop.
<landley> This one hasn't died yet, although an equivalent replacement (with twice the ram) is now about $550.
<landley> The 3D is good enough to play world of warcraft and watch dvds, that's all I'm really looking for.
<Dlareh> So I priced a dell xps m1330 with 4gb of ram for $1300
<Dlareh> that's about the same as the thinkpad SL500 would cost once I add a 2gb stick to make it 3gb total
<Dlareh> so it's comparable...
<landley> Thinkpads are traditionally more durable.
<Dlareh> one comes with ubuntu pre-installed...but I'm not sure how this dell keyboad compares, and doesn't have a trackpoint
<landley> Although the failure mode of all my laptops so far has been "cat hair in keyboard" or "hard drive" or some such.
<Dlareh> yeah, my last laptop was an x40, I loved its durability...
<Dlareh> I put it through hell, finally crapped out on me a few months ago
<landley> I killed a thinkpad by running it over with my car, their durability has limits.
<Dlareh> lol, well I didn't quite do that...just treated it rough : )
<landley> Non-thinkpad trackpoints can be a bit hard to come by, true.
<landley> Touch pads are teh suck, and in many ways dell specializes in teh suck.
<landley> The dell systems are a nice option to be aware of.  The tiny little part of Dell that's aware Linux exists does a good job supporting it.
<landley> The rest of Dell is going down with the microsoft ship, and going out of business fairly quickly.
<landley> As I said, 5000 layoffs in the past 2 weeks.  (i live in austin.)
<landley> You'll notice that the main dell.com website does not mention dell.com/linux in any way.
<Dlareh> going out of business? eh...downsizing isn't "out of business" ...
<Dlareh> economy as a whole is slow, but I'm pretty sure dell is here to stay as a top tier OEM in terms of volume...
<landley> When I say "going out of business" I mean the entire company is paralyzed, management is distracted by an SEC investigation, Apple's eating them alive...
<landley> The layoffs are just a symptom.
<landley> Dell was #1.  They're now #2 and next quarter may be #3.
<Dlareh> I don't like apple keyboards at all
<landley> (I forget if that's unit volume or dollars, I'd have to look it up...)
<Dlareh> love the thinkpad ones...which is why I'm leaning towards the SL500
<landley> Go for it.
<landley> Keyboard/mouse/screen comfort are almost as important as the rest of the laptop combined.
<landley> The processor/3d/ram/disk/memory are all commodity components.
<landley> You get about the same stuff from each vendor on those fronts.
<landley> None of 'em can write a bios to save their lives anymore...
<landley> The smart ones are using open bios or whatever that "boot straight into linux, hand off to the next OS" thing is called.  I forget...
<Dlareh> Hah, the network card on that XPS is only 10/100 ....welcome to 4 years ago, dell....
<landley> My laptop has gigabit, and it's a year old dell from the same page...
<Dlareh> the inspiron?
<Dlareh> well the configured XPS just says "10/100" 
<landley> inspiron E1505.
<Rigolo> good afternoon ....
<Rigolo> does Ubuntu Mobile also work on generic x86 low powered (300Mhz P1) hardware? I have a Fujitsu lifebook B112 that I am trying to bring back to life
<ian_brasil> Rigolo: did you see this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CreatingAGenerici386PlaformForMIC ?
<Rigolo> not yet ... lookin at it now
<Rigolo> mmm looks interesting ... but why are these not standard in the Image Creator ... it is documented how to do it .. :-)
<ian_brasil> because that is not the focus for the Image Creator
<Rigolo> I see, just read the mailing list posts ... 
<Rigolo> well, here is an other project on my list then :-)
<ian_brasil> I imagine the guys were pretty happy someone hacked the MIC for i386...if you have a go with this I would be interested in the results
<Rigolo> would be cool if I can use this nice little notebook again with some nice GUI :-)
<Rigolo> well, my "TODO" list is getting largeer each day ... first priority is getting my mythtv dvb-c backend up and running correctly with my cable provider ... 
<Rigolo> that will give me some extra room to play with other things ... like this
<ian_brasil> OK, cool
<Rigolo> saying this .. I hear it is time for me to cook dinner .. :-)
<ian_brasil> good luck ;)
<Rigolo> well, it is not so much luck ... I like cooking .. and the weekends are for me, the weekdays for my GF
<Rigolo> today it is chicken teriyaki (http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,chicken_teriyaki,FF.html)
<Alibb> hi there, is there a devlopment testing on Intel Xscale device of Ubuntu-mobile ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-03
<lulwutz> Anybody here use Acer Aspire One and successfully got their wireless to work? 
<Guest34476> Anybody here using Acer Aspire One successfully get their wireless to work?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-04
<ramaddan> hi
<ramaddan> there was a meeting today, right?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-06
<MallocHigh> I'm new to the idea of ubuntu mobile. Can I install it on a winmo pda?
<metalfan_> hi
<metalfan_> https://launchpad.net/~fitpc2/+archive/ppa          can anybody tell me if mplayer-vaapi from this site is available for lpia or not available?
<lbt> Hi guys... is UbuntuMID for Karmic dead? We've not seen anything from you all for some time...
<ian_brasil> lbt, there is the current image here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/daily-live/current/
<ian_brasil> but it seems to be from the end of May
<lbt> there was an intention to work with Mer
<lbt> but we've seen very little since the joint meeting
<ian_brasil> i bet that is because the focus is more towards arm i believe
<lbt> ? ubuntu or Mer?
<ian_brasil> ubuntu-arm
<lbt> Sorry, not following.
<lbt> We (Mer) haven't seen much from ubuntu MID
<lbt> Mer is an arm distro
<lbt> is Ubuntu MID now focussing on Atom?
<lbt> or is it that MID as such is not being developed because ubuntu-arm is being developed instead?
<ian_brasil> Ubuntu MID (or rather the lpia port) will be community maintained..developer resources have moved to focus m ore on arm..so it is the second although i am not sure MID will die
<lbt> it feels like the 'based on Mer' part has stalled out though?
<ian_brasil> dunno..i have no inside knowledge of this however i just try to follow the winding path of mobile ubuntu :)
<lbt> heh ... I'm giving a talk this weekend and I'm thinking that I should remove the "Ubuntu MID said they'd be using Mer" slide
<lbt> thanks.  well, maybe someone will pipe up at some point.
<ian_brasil> i saw that slide IIRC in Stskeeps presentation
<lbt> yes, I think he took it out for debconf
<ian_brasil> i an fairly certain that there will be a karmic release of MID
<lbt> Iguess at this point it seems unlikely that any Mer code will be going in though
<ian_brasil> as i understood it , it was karmic +1 with the Mer code
<lbt> shame - we did a lot of work on working out a process to make supporting MID easier
<ian_brasil> instead of syncing with moblin thet will pull from Mer
<ian_brasil> lbt, well if i was you i would try to get hold of lool or ogra for more details
<lbt> willdo, lool was helping me out the other day on cross-compiling but we didn't discuss the MID/Mer thing...
<ian_brasil> and persia is normally around too..i was not @ UDS so i could be talking out of my hat
<ian_brasil> i think if they said that they were going to do something they will do it
<ian_brasil> but it is all hands on deck with bugs and stuff for the release at the moment
<lbt> :)
<lbt> It's kinda hard when we've only met briefly via irc
<ian_brasil> right..the ubuntu mobile devs are really cool (and also really busy) so maybe it just slipped off their plate 
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-07
<metalfan_> https://launchpad.net/~fitpc2/+archive/ppa          can anybody tell me if mplayer-vaapi from this site is available for lpia or not available?
<bharatkumar> what is the procedure for customization
<metalfan_> https://launchpad.net/~fitpc2/+archive/ppa          can anybody tell me if mplayer-vaapi from this site is available for lpia or not available?
<lool> metalfan_: It failed to build
<lool> It fails in an interesting way
<metalfan_> hm, i compiled it by hand on my intel atom.  the compilation worked, but mplayer does not display the video. it only plays sound
<metalfan_> http://www.splitted-desktop.com/~gbeauchesne/mplayer-vaapi/         <- i also found this site, but the checkout script does not work out of the bo
<metalfan_> x
<lool> I have no idea
<lool> I don't use libva
<metalfan_> i could give you ssh acces to my intel atom box if you like to try something
<metalfan_> oh wait
<metalfan_> if it failed to build for lpia does it mean its available for i386?
<metalfan_> i dont get the architecture listing at all
<lool> metalfan_: Click on the left arrow
<metalfan_> still no clue
<metalfan_> my ubuntu did just restart xorg for no apparent reason....
<metalfan_> weird
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-08
<Raidsong> is this mobile as in the phone or mobile as in the city?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-09
<derekS> hey guys, what is the future of ubuntu mobile? Whats going on with ubuntu mobile + moblin?
<yokobr> Hello everybody
<derekS> hiya
<yokobr> can i install ubuntu mobile on my smartphone?
<yokobr> it has now windows mobile..
<yokobr> it's an e63
<yokobr> ?
<yokobr> ...
<yokobr> plz, anybody there?
<yokobr> hey guys... can i install it on e63? 
<yokobr> nokia's smartphone
<yokobr> pleasee
<yokobr> is there any linux operating system for smartphones?
<yokobr> pleasee
<BUGabundo> hey
<BUGabundo> anyone alive an on IRC on a Sunday morning?
<BUGabundo> one of those really nice to be at the beach
<BUGabundo> ogra: ping
<BUGabundo> anyone ?
