#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-27
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:pitti] : Tuesday 16 November 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Technical Board meeting
<smurfix> Quick question: are the logs (or a synopsis) from the last tech meeting available someplace?
<fabbione> smurfix: people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<fabbione> a more official url needs to be done
<fabbione> so do not bookmark it
<smurfix> OK. (NB, official logs should probably have UTC timestamps.)
<fabbione> smurfix: i am not going to change date and time on my server for that :-)
<amu> moins
<pitti> Hi folks
<smurfix> fabbione: env TZ=UTC should be sufficient.
<seb128> afternoon pitti 
<seb128> and the others too :)
<Keybuk> afternoon folks
<Keybuk> seb128: (wishlist) temporarily turn off "typing break" feature <g>
<seb128> yeah :)
<Keybuk> ok, let's get started
<fabbione> saomebody ping sabdfl?
<pitti> done
<Keybuk> heh, good point :p
<fabbione> elmo?
<daniels> is baby jesus in attendance also?
<Gwildor_> ODB?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Tuesday 16 November 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Technical Board meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pitti> Hi silbs
<silbs> hi pitti
<Keybuk> silbs, lulu: throw a bread roll or something at Mark, would ya? :p
<daniels> Keybuk: or a jellybean
* mako waves
<sivang> hey mako
<sabdfl> hi all
<silbs> keybuk: thrown
<pitti> Hi
<smurfix> Missing agenda item: confirmation of new maintainers? *cough* ;-)
<Keybuk> have there been additional new maintainers since the last community meeting?
<sabdfl> smurfix: you mean the ones that were approved by the CC last week?
<sivang> it's been done on the CC meeting last time, with TB attandent .
<Keybuk> ok, so I'm going to act as emergency-holographic-mdz while he's sunning himself on some beach somewhere :)
<smurfix> Ah, OK. Mark wrote that that still needs to happen AFAIR.
<sabdfl> those maintainers that want to be on the keyring for uploads do need to be approved by the TB
<sabdfl> because they need to be comfortable with the gpg key management security
<smurfix> sabdfl: that would be me then
<Keybuk> sabdfl: do we want to add that to the agenda for this meeting?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: yes please
<sabdfl> smurfix: you're already a DD right?
<smurfix> sabdfl: Yep
<sabdfl> ok, then np
<sabdfl> as long as the rest of the TB concurs :-)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I do, certainly.
<elmo> damn timezones
<Keybuk> do we have a list of the others that need confirming?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: do we have the full TB?
<sabdfl> enrico said he would like upload, so he needs to be confirmed
<hornbeck> I would like upload
<hornbeck> for future sake
<sabdfl> hornbeck: how comfortable are you with gpg?
* amu too
<Keybuk> sabdfl: mdz is on holiday, he was around about 10 minutes ago for just 5-10 more minutes
<hornbeck> getting real comfortable
* haggai puts up hand too
<sabdfl> haggai: have you been approved by the CC last week?
<haggai> sabdfl: no
<sabdfl> then start there :-)
<haggai> okey dokey
<Keybuk> sabdfl: the list you posted on the 9th Nov was:
<Keybuk>  - Thibaut Varenet
<Keybuk>  - Alexander Poslavsky
<Keybuk>  - John Hornbeck
<Keybuk>  - Matthias Urlichs
<sabdfl> and enrico, behind the scenes
* plovs doesn't need upload for now, later maybe
<sabdfl> hornbeck: doyou have a gpg key that is widely signed?
<hornbeck> not yet, I can hold on upload right now
<sabdfl> hornbeck: ok, i think so
<hornbeck> thats fine
<sabdfl> upload via enrico for the moment, if you are coming to the conf it will be a good way to get your key trusted
<sabdfl> ok keybuk, take it away
<Keybuk> we should definitely ensure we have a trusted path to anyone whose key we put in the keyring
<elmo> Keybuk: dude, we had problems doing that for employees
<elmo> (not that I'm saying we shouldn't, but you should be aware it's going to be painful for some folks)
<sabdfl> we can use formal procedures, notarisation etc to get it done
<daniels> trust path doesn't imply direct, necessarily
<Keybuk> trusted path can be "we have a signed contract and pay them" :)
<daniels> you could use debian wot, e.g.
<Keybuk> "we know where you live"
<elmo> daniels: I was using the debian wot and indirect paths
<lamont_r> elmo: making the exceptions higly visible would be a good way of dealing with the few that are exceptions...
<fabbione> elmo: i think you are the only one not signing keys yet :P
<sabdfl> we'll get it done for anyone that really needs it, using notaries etc
<sabdfl> let's get going on today's agenda, keybuk leads
<daniels> elmo: oh, wow
<Keybuk> yup, I'm going to move the ongoing merge feedback to the end to give Colin time to get back
<Keybuk> so first up is pitti and splitting out language packs
<pitti> Yes
<pitti> I already started working on firefox and thunderbird
<pitti> OO.o is cleared, too
<pitti> the remaining question is whether we really want to extract gettext po files
<pitti> pro: saves some installed space
<pitti> con: heavily intrusive, needs rebuild of whole archive
<Keybuk> this is taking the translation data out of the application packages and into a single .deb (for those not following this :p)
<pitti> con: needs debhelper change and makes inconsistencies easy
<pitti> Keybuk: right, that was an idea
<pitti> however, I think the main problem we really have is missing translations for OO.o, Firefox and so on
<sabdfl> pitti: i very much want this as a hoary feature, fwiw
<pitti> sabdfl: we will have language packs for above apps in any case
<sabdfl> that's an orthogonal issue, which rosetta aims to solve
<Keybuk> do we want to leave any languages in the original packages?
<Keybuk> or should they all be split into language packs?
<pitti> Keybuk: you mean gettext?
<Keybuk> pitti: I mean in general
<elmo> is this going to require source changes?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: yes, for packages outside of the desktop list
<elmo> for every source package?
<sabdfl> elmo: for the base and  desktop packages
<pitti> for now I think the advantages we would get from extracting gettext files don't outweigh the cons
<lamont_r> sabdfl: that's ugly before the infrastructure is there...
<fabbione> legislatura danese
<fabbione> ops
<pitti> "infrastructure" in this case would mean a modified debhelper and a handful of packages which require manual changes
<Keybuk> pitti: is there any particular reason why extracting the gettext files is any harder/uglier than Mozilla/OOo's translations ... other than sheer weight of numbers?
<elmo> sabdfl: that's going to take the merge work from minimal to... lots
<pitti> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> can you elaborate?
<pitti> Keybuk: because for OO.o and mozilla we already have separate locale debs
<pitti> Keybuk: thesep rograms don't use gettext
<pitti> Keybuk: e. g. Mozilla uses these xpi files
<sabdfl> this is the sort of "do it across the whole archive" thing that we can do
<haggai> and OOo/moz already have separate .debs in Debian
<pitti> so for OO.o and mozilla it's just a matter of a metapackage that depends on e. g. mozilla-firefox-locale-de
<sabdfl> 'm willing to hire a team just to handle this sort of stuff
<sabdfl> we need to make it as efficient as possible
<pitti> sabdfl: but what's the real benefit of having extracted gettext files?
<sabdfl> pitti: lay the groundwork for rosetta, make the languages more concrete and visible
<pitti> the user won't notice whether foo.deb or language-support-XX.deb shipped a gettext template
<elmo> sabdfl: yes, but it's not a once off cost - there's the ongoing merge cost
<Keybuk> ok, my understanding of language-pack-$LANG is that it basically contains /usr/share/locale/$LANG/LC_MESSAGES -- with a file for each package in base and desktop
<Keybuk> is that the basic idea?
<pitti> yes
<sabdfl> elmo: we are going to get to the point where we have touched every package in main, and have to sustain the merge
<pitti> adn the original debs don't contain the files any more
<pitti> but it's not only a merging problem
<haggai> what about doing the change in Debian proper too?
<pitti> we have to update the language pack for each and every upload (including seurity updates)
<Keybuk> the "merging problem" is just a change to debian/rules binary in an area that Debian probably don't change too much -- so I'm not *overly* worried about that
<elmo> has anyone found out how big language-pack-$LANG will be?
<sabdfl> we will continue to update the language pack after release
<pitti> and the problem is that the language pack would depend on _all_ other packages with a particular version
<smurfix> Why not pull the locale files out of the .deb files after the fact? No more merge problems.
<sabdfl> so that new translations come into use
<sabdfl> without requiring code updates
<elmo> sabdfl: ??
<pitti> elmo: my /usr/share/locale is 169 MB
<pitti> elmo: but this contains _all_ translations,
<elmo> wow, mdz's going to be so sorry he missed this meeting
<pitti> so I think a particular language pack will be quite small
<pitti> about 10 MB or so
<elmo> pitti: so we have, best case, 169MB of unrsyncable debs that change every day?  woot
<fabbione> pitti: can you see how many languages in average?
<Keybuk> descent scott% ls -l ca_data.tar.*
<Keybuk> -rw-rw-r--    1 scott    scott        1.7M 2004-11-16 16:24 ca_data.tar.bz2
<Keybuk> -rw-rw-r--    1 scott    scott        1.9M 2004-11-16 16:24 ca_data.tar.gz
<pitti> fabbione: what do you mean`
<Keybuk> that's using Catalan (I think)
<fabbione> pitti: see how big is one language. 
<pitti> fabbione: 100 directories, 161 MB
<pitti> fabbione: that makes 1.6 MB on average for a language
<pitti> fabbione: of course popular ones are much bigger
<Keybuk> sabdfl: where are we going to put the updated language packs?  hoary itself, hoary-security or hoary-updates ?
<elmo> sorry, what's the big gain in this?
<elmo> other than being able to update translations independently
<pitti> elmo: I don't understand either
<doko> elmo: 160MB more place on the CD for other packages?
<elmo> doko: how does that work?
<fabbione> sabdfl: but what is the point in updating lang packages after a release? i don't think we are going to change strings after...
<pitti> it really makes an user-visible difference for langpacks for OO.o and firefox/thunderbird, but not for gettext
<elmo> doko: unless we have per lang CDs?
<sabdfl> fabbione: strings don't change, but we get more translations
<pitti> doko: no, because we have to ship the translations anyway
<sabdfl> so you can update each week, and your apps become "more translated"
<elmo> sabdfl: at an insane cost for mirrors
<sabdfl> and you are only downloading the new strings for languages you care about
<pitti> fabbione: security updates might touch translations
<fabbione> sabdfl: from my experience about debconf translation, we will get them for new releases of the packages. 
<Gwildor_> real quick, can I post here, or just "listen"?
<elmo> so, say, I update ed and a translation changes, instead of the 20K ed.deb changing, a (best case) 2M .deb language package changes for n languages
<fabbione> pitti: yes that is a very special case that will push hell of an update
<Keybuk> Gwildor_: feel free to jump in if you've got something to contribute :)  be on topic, there's time at the end for any other business
<pitti> fabbione: luckily it shouldn't occur very often
<pitti> I have a proposal
<pitti> for Hoary, we confine the language packs to OO.o and Mozilla stuff
<pitti> then we can wait for Rosetta and try out whether separating the translations really brings benefit
<doko> elmo: another reason: if the catalan translation is updated, you won't even download 20k?
<pitti> another point: as soon as we have langpacks, our packages will conflict to every debian pacakge
<elmo> doko: _I_ won't, but the mirrors will download 2Mbxn (where n is, what conservatively? 50?)
<Gwildor_> maybe make a language repo?, being a synaptic user, it is quite annoying searching thru language packs?
<pitti> and worse, users cannot compile packages on their own
<Keybuk> pitti: personally I don't think that's an exciting proposal ... those packs are already separated, so it's actually not changing anything from warty -> hoary is it?
<elmo> it's not worth saving our users 20k, if it costs our mirrors 160Mb
<Keybuk> pitti: no, just Replaces
<pitti> Keybuk: it makes a difference
<pitti> Keybuk: right now, non-english users don't get translations for firefox/ooo/thunderbird
<pitti> Keybuk: but the langpack can be integrated into d-i, so this would install all relevant stuff automatically
<sabdfl> pitti: it's a good start
<sabdfl> elmo: is the issue that mirrors won't like the rapid changing languagepack packages?
<pitti> not being able to compile packages on one's own is a major drawback
<Keybuk> talking of d-i ... how are we handling debian/po with this?  are we splitting out the debconf translations as well?
<sabdfl> pitti: im sure we can solve that one
<pitti> sabdfl: how?
<pitti> sabdfl: the user would be required to take our build infrastructure
<elmo> sabdfl: no, the issue is that by congealing language packs from hundreds of different source packages into one deb, you've massively increased the mirror cost for a change in any one of those source packages
<pitti> sabdfl: and generate his own language pack
<sabdfl> pitti: make it so a normal build leaves the translations in
<elmo> like, on an order of magnitude increased
<pitti> sabdfl: this does not work
<Keybuk> sabdfl: you couldn't install the normal build -- it'd conflict with the language pack
<pitti> sabdfl: because the newly compiled package and the language pack would conflict filewise
<fabbione> sabdfl: dpkg will refuse to install the locally built package
<pitti> no debian packages, no external apt sources any more
<pitti> for a change that an user does not actually see
<haggai> and you get a lot of extra differences between debian<->ubuntu package file lists
<pitti> he will get translations either way
<pitti> We should ask ourselves a question: what is our actual problem?
<pitti> providing the users with apps in his language?
<sabdfl> pitti: (a) we cannot update translations after release without updating packages
<pitti> sabdfl: but you have to update the language pack
<sabdfl> pitti: (b) we put a lot of translations on the cd that will never be used, languagepacks would be more efficient
<haggai> sabdfl: update or add new?  Adding new is probably easier to do than update
<pitti> sabdfl: so you want to throw out translations for (b)?
<doko> what about making an additional language pack and divert the files, which the language pack updates?
<sabdfl> pitti: (c) we want "install a new language" to be a more concrete action, that updates various bits of the system config accordingly
<doko> that way, local build can still be installed.
<pitti> (c) is not even necessary now
<fabbione> doko: iirc dpkg-divert goes on crack in certain situation. (there is something about it on debian bts related to xfree86)
<sabdfl> yes, (c) is necessary. I'd like, for example, that installing a new language pack asks if you want the GDM login to switch to that language, and make that the system default, etc
<Keybuk> fabbione: that's Branden being on crack (shock)
<Keybuk> but it is a dpkg-divert bug
<pitti> AFAICS (b) is the only real reason
<fabbione> Keybuk: eheh
<sabdfl> pitti: (a) is just as important
<sabdfl> with rosetta, we will get a lot of translations after a release
<sabdfl> and we want to be able to get those translations to users for that release, as well as later ones
<haggai> new translations or updates of existing languages?
<pitti> sabdfl: but whether you update language packs or normal packages does not really make a difference
<Keybuk> my concern with updating translations after a release is that updated translations can introduce security holes
<sabdfl> haggai: both
<sabdfl> pitti: it's a much smaller update for the user
<pitti> right
<sabdfl> and it changes no functionality, so it could go out with our daily/weekly post-release updates
<pitti> but as Keybuk say, an error in a translation can easily make a buffer overflow
<sabdfl> so each week i download 2-10 mb and i get smarter translations
<pitti> so translations have to be reviewed very carefully if we put them into stable reelases
<elmo> sabdfl: at a quite simply unbearable cost to mirrors
<doko> using dpkg-divert increases the disk space on the user's disk, but that shouldn't be such an issue. provided that dpkg-divert works reliably.
<sabdfl> elmo: how many mirrors cover warty-security?
<pitti> I actually like the idea with diverting changed files in the language pack
<elmo> seriously, I can't overstate this enough.  my /usr/share/locale/ is 223Mb - you're proposing a 223Mb hit PER DAY
<Keybuk> doko: the other option is to have an /usr/share/language-pack alternate locale heirachy
<doko> elmo: are separate ftp areas for language packs a solution?
<elmo> and bear in mind that's "katie" days, i.e. in reality ==> half an hour
<elmo> sabdfl: any that have the archive
<sabdfl> elmo: only during the development period
<pitti> sabdfl: I doubt that it is a smaller update. Right now, you download only the translations for programs you have installed; with a langpack, you have to download translations for _all_ packages
<doko> keybuk: ant to search this one first? that would mean _one_ change in gettext?
<elmo> sabdfl: err, even when we're frozen, there was easily an update of a desktop package once a day (real day)
<pitti> sabdfl: what do you think about the diversion idea? Itsounds nice to me
<elmo> sabdfl: and just one source package is enough to incure the 223Mb hit
<sabdfl> elmo: after release, there are no string changes, or very, very few
<sabdfl> so it's only new translations that will be downloaded
<elmo> sabdfl: but dude, we develop for what?  2/3 months?
<sabdfl> pitti: i don't know enough about the diversion mechanism, how does it work?
<elmo> it's just not sane that a souce package with string changes ==> 223Mb hit
<elmo> A source package.  one of them.  any one of them (in desktop).
<pitti> sabdfl: it basically means that a package can say "hey, I have a replacement for this file X in this other deb"
<pitti> sabdfl: so the langpack would only divert the files it actually changed
<pitti> sabdfl: we could leave our current debs intact
<pitti> sabdfl: and after the release, the langpack would "replace" (divert) just the changed .po files
<Keybuk> and the language pack would become incrementally larger after release adding or updating translations?
<sabdfl> pitti: does that scale to the numbers of files we are dealing with?
<elmo> how is this even going to work anyway - what's going to update the language pack?
<doko> pitti: keybuk's proposal about the alternative hierarchy boils down to the same thing: don't modify the source package, but ship additional language files.
<elmo> what happens with concurrent builds on buildds?
<pitti> sabdfl: I don't really know
<Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, you can dpkg-divert your entire file system quite happily
<elmo> or is it taken out-of-bounds of the build-a-source package process?
<smurfix> that would mean that people can't enhance their self-built package with new translated strings though
<amu> well KDE handle in such a way they deliver a big packages with all translation in it, and deliver kind of diff to updates
<pitti> Keybuk: is it easy to have a second hierarchy globally?
<Keybuk> pitti: no idea.
<pitti> Keybuk: or does it require a change of all packages?
<pitti> Keybuk: it seems that only a gettext change is required, though
<daniels> amu: yah, but KDE doesn't deal with binary packages
<doko> elmo: is it _one_ language pack source package, or one for each language?
<daniels> amu: you don't push a new kde-i18n binary every time someone updates kdeextragear-1
<Keybuk> you'd have to be wary of packages that statically linked an in-source libintl :-/
<elmo> doko: AFAIK they're talking about one for each "language"
<sabdfl> doko: one for each language
<pitti> Keybuk: oh, right. This is hard to catch...
<elmo> one for each source package, would actually solve the mirror problem, it just brings back the Packages problem back a little bit
<elmo> it would also solve the concurrent-buildds issue
<sabdfl> i'm not sure we can safely multiple the number of packages by 200 :-)
<Keybuk> elmo: would having language-pack only contain new and updated translations since the last release of the source package satisfy the mirror hit?  You'd only be updating it when you got new stuff in, and it'd not contain the full set
<amu> daniels: you can package only the diffs compared to the first version, with a release you merge all to a new big one  
<daniels> elmo: i weep on behalf of dialup
<elmo> Keybuk: how on earth would that work?
<daniels> amu: how does that actually work?
<Keybuk> elmo: you'd just update language-pack-XX when you got new translations in, and not bother with the source package
<amu> daniels: see Keybuk 
<sabdfl> if you update a package that has a file that has been diverted by another package, what does it do with the new version of it's diverted file?
<elmo> sabdfl: dude, if it's really 200 languages, that's more like 400Mb hit then ...
<Keybuk> sabdfl: puts it in the diverted place
<sabdfl> elmo: many languages have very few translations
<sabdfl> with rosetta, we hope that will change
<elmo> Keybuk: sorry, I still don't get it?  the problem is you've got an unrsyncable (even ignoring the filename change) .deb which is 2mb, x 200
<elmo> Keybuk: I don't see how anything you've said could help with that?
<sabdfl> if we get to the point that it is 400MB of translations, then this will be a necessity in any event, so deal with it :-)
<Keybuk> elmo: no, it starts off 0 x 200 ... and only grows in size if new translations come in
<elmo> sabdfl: no, dude, it's NOT
<elmo> sabdfl: if evolution gets new strings, the hit to mirrors is evolution
<elmo> sabdfl: with language packages, the hit is 400Mb
<Keybuk> elmo: I think Mark's point is that 400MB of translations doesn't fit will on a CD :p
<elmo> even in 2015, evolution won't be 400Mb big
<fabbione> (+ evolution)
<sabdfl> elmo: if every package is fully translated to every language, the size of the translations in all the packages will be 2/3 of the CD
<sabdfl> so we won't be able to put the packages for desktop on the cd
<fabbione> sabdfl: i think we should approach this problem in a different way
<fabbione> instead of changing the build system for all package
<fabbione> we should find a way to strip languages for CDs
<elmo> sabdfl: so we split them out, but we can't split them out into some monstrous "I come from all desktop sources" mirror-killer package
<pitti> fabbione: you mean, repack the .debs?
<pitti> fabbione: this should be easy
<Keybuk> elmo: what would you suggest that wouldn't kill the mirrors?
<fabbione> pitti: only to build the CD
<doko> sabdfl: the we have that many translatios, we'll DVD's ;)
<pitti> fabbione: but what do you do with the stripped files then?
<fabbione> pitti: at that point we can have CD English/Itaglish/Italian
<pitti> fabbione: ah, I see
<fabbione> pitti: trash them.
<elmo> Keybuk: don't do this?  seriously.  I don't know of a way to do this that wouldn't kill them.  the fundamental flaw is congealing that many sources together
<Keybuk> fabbione: APT gets its freaky on when it has two packages of the same version (one installed, one in the archive) with different installed-size
<pitti> fabbione: you delete all but one language
<doko> sabdfl: the time we have that many translatios, we'll DVD's ;)
<fabbione> pitti: the packages in the archive will not be altered
<pitti> fabbione: good idea
<sabdfl> fabbione: is it ok for the debs on the cd to be different to the debs you build, or the debs in the archive?
<Keybuk> elmo: we're going to have to accept we can't fit all the translations on the CD ... so what do we do?
<fabbione> pitti: only the one that lands on the CD
<lamont_r> Keybuk: yeah.  name/version/architecture tuple needs to uniquely identify the file
<elmo> Keybuk: strip them out, oo.o/mozilla style?
<fabbione> sabdfl: at that point yes. because if i reinstall from the mirror there will be no conflict
<fabbione> sabdfl: the language file will belong to the same package
<elmo> maybe with with big language groupings somehow to reduce the number of packages
<sabdfl> elmo: and land up with 200x8000 packages?
<pitti> fabbione: we could also think about only leaving the most popular 10
<Keybuk> elmo: so ~200,000 new source packages is better than 200 source packages?
<sabdfl> pitti: that's the plan
<pitti> fabbione: this should be fairly flexible
<elmo> sabdfl: seriously, that's a saner alternative than killing mirrors - if we have to put resources into fixing apt/dpkg/katie/whatever to cope, we can at least do that.   we can't ask mirrors to take 400Mb for the team every dat
<Keybuk> fabbione: no, it's really not ok.  apt will randomly reinstall some, and not others
<lamont_r> fabbione: that's the reason that you have to flush the cache during the arch bootstrap process, and part of why mix-n-match with debian repositories is bad
<fabbione> Keybuk: bad luck. how gets updates, gets all the package
<sabdfl> elmo: i agree with you, i was thinking we could manage the build / strip process so that the bullet would not be necessary
<fabbione> s/how/who
<Keybuk> fabbione: after an install, the first net update could take a 600MB hit!
<elmo> Keybuk: if the 200 source packages change every day and total hit is 400Mb, yes
<Kamion> back
<fabbione> Keybuk: teach apt-get/dpkg not to do so?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: in my experience it just throws a fit (but that's with the old package in the cache, not fetching...)
<Keybuk> lamont_r: stick Debian + Ubuntu in your sources.list -- it'll randomly swap packages around every update between the two archives :(
<Keybuk> anyway, that's getting slightly off-topic
<lamont_r> kewl
<elmo> can I propose an alternative?
<Keybuk> so: a language-pack per language kills the mirrors, as it needs to be updated for every new source upload
<sabdfl> elmo: yes of course
<Keybuk> elmo: please :)
<elmo> let's devote all our resources into converting the world to use a single common language!!!!!!!!!1! 
<elmo> \o/
<fabbione> ahahha
<smurfix> ouch
<Keybuk> a language-pack per source per language kills the Packages file, as it introduces roughly a quarter of a million packages
<pitti> elmo: +1 :-)
<lamont_r> elmo: I thought that was tried with esperanto
<seb128> elmo: can we pick french ? :)
* seb128 runs
<pitti> Keybuk: the packages file alone would fill the cd
<Keybuk> pitti: not to mention you needing a few gig of memory for APT to parse it
<lamont_r> seb128: istr the french gov't would require that. :-)
<Kamion> Keybuk: in 10+ years of the GNU translation project they've managed about 30 languages total, maybe average 10 a package
<pitti> Keybuk: and a week to download
<Kamion> Keybuk: I don't think we're going to surpass that by orders of magnitude any time soon
<elmo> so maybe we don't use Packages for this - maybe we use something lighter weight?
<doko> keybuk: could you work around that by adding a new section main-de, universe-de ?
<pitti> we could download translations from rosetta directly to /var/share/locale
<pitti> without packages
<sabdfl> i'm not opposed to a separate infrastructure of per-package, per-language files, coordinated through a new index
<Henri1> How about one package each week containing diffs for all languages each week and a small utility to patch them in? Would that break the apps? It would only be 13 packages in 6 months and they would be quite small.
<sabdfl> it's a lot of work though, on new infrastructure
<Keybuk> I don't think there's anything the tech-board can decide on today
<Keybuk> This needs a lot more discussion and some more concrete proposals we can pro/con
<Henri1> One diff from the Gold frelease and one from each relevant security update.
<pitti> this discussion should be wrote up in a pro/con list
<Keybuk> pitti: are you up for doing that?
<smurfix> You don't even need an index, minimally; just try to download ftp://wherever/LANG/PACKAGE.deb... but I agree with keybuk
<pitti> I can do this
<pitti> unfortunately I forgot to turn on logging, but fabbione's logs should do
<haggai> smurfix: that doesn't scale if you have 1000s of packages installed
<pitti> I write that up to u-devel
<Kamion> smurfix: need versioning though
<smurfix> haggai: it's not worse than the existing /pool.
<Keybuk> pitti: excellent.  hopefully we'll be able to get some proposals for solving this, and then if no consensus about which one's the best appears, it can come before the board again.
<pitti> Keybuk: I also think we should digest this discussion a bit
<smurfix> Kamion: true, I sortof included the version in PACKAGE.
<haggai> smurfix: you don't currently try to download a file for every installed package on your system
<pitti> Keybuk: a pro/con table will help to device
<pitti> Keybuk: s/device/decide/
<Keybuk> ok, moving on.
<Keybuk> fabbione: sparc port status?
<pitti> Keybuk: next item? BTW, you forgot the first one
<fabbione> yup
<fabbione> during the last weeks i was kind bored waiting for Xorg to compile
<fabbione> so i started porting Ubuntu to sparc
<fabbione> right now i am at stage0 of the port
<fabbione> half way trough main
<fabbione> and it is going pretty well
<fabbione> very few failures
<sabdfl> elmo: can you get me some quotes on a sparc port box and 3 buildd's?
<fabbione> there were a few requests for this port on some mailing lists
<elmo> sabdfl: new?
<Keybuk> what kinds of sparc is this targetted at?  Low end, or shiny ultras?  32-bit or 64-bit?
<fabbione> sabdfl: i gave you already a good number to phone for sparc hw
<sabdfl> elmo: your judgment, bang for buck but make sure they can keep up
<elmo> fabbione: please send it to me
<fabbione> elmo: i will
<elmo> sabdfl: ok
<fabbione> Keybuk: sparc64. i don't have any sparc32
<fabbione> but before asking for official buildd's
<fabbione> i have a few questions to raise to all of you
<fabbione> first we need a way to measure the use of one unofficial port
<fabbione> in order to decide if it is really worth to buy buildd's or not
<fabbione> and what i was thinking about
<fabbione> was to have one machine at the datacenter
<doko> fabbione, you did build everything for sparc64?
<fabbione> that can act as temporary archive for unofficial port in "evaluaton" status
<sabdfl> fabbione: you mean, we should offer to host any unofficial port, then decide based on downloads?
<sabdfl> sounds good
<fabbione> doko: as i wrote above i am half way trough main'
<fabbione> sabdfl: exactly
<fabbione> sabdfl: i don't see any point in wasting money if the port can't keep up
<fabbione> "port" meaning also porters behind it
<fabbione> clearly i am doing this on my spare time and not company time
<doko> fabbione: no, I mean sparc32 or sparc64 ?
<Kamion> fabbione: are there people besides you interested in contributing development effort?
<fabbione> so i might get sucked as well
<fabbione> Kamion: there were a few people talking about the port on the mailing lists
<fabbione> also thom and Mithrandir, but i will not speak for them
<Keybuk> fabbione: I like that idea.  elmo: any comments?
<fabbione> doko: i am building the same way debian does atm.
<fabbione> also
<fabbione> this temporary repository should not be available for mirrors
<elmo> it makes sense, I guess - we'll just need another repository
<sabdfl> elmo: could this be integrated with our normal package upload infrastructure, keyrings etc?
<fabbione> the reason is that we need to be able to measure
<fabbione> how many downloads we get for that port
<fabbione> and mirrors will make the calculation more complex
<fabbione> as lamont suggested to me this morning
<elmo> well.. actually, I guess we could put it in the normal repo and just --exclude it when we sync to archive.ubuntu.com .. if that's not too disgusting?
<haggai> fabbione: that will be very difficult.  Could you make use of popcon?
<fabbione> once the port will be allowed to enter the official archive
<fabbione> the packages will be already close to the buildd for usage
<elmo> haggai: just make use of /var/log/apache2/sparc.ubuntu.com :)
<fabbione> and not on my desparate 2M/512k adsl
<haggai> elmo: I was thinking it is likely to get mirrored / copied via CD / apt-proxy etc that won't show up
<fabbione> elmo: it's really up to you...
<elmo> haggai: yeah, but users still run apt-get update
<fabbione> also
<fabbione> the fact of keeping everything seperate is better in the beginning
<elmo> well, I'm happy to do the dubious --exclude method, it's certainly the path of least resistance
<fabbione> i wouldn't like the idea that we let sparc enter the archive
<haggai> elmo: true, that will give you a count of sites using it
<fabbione> and then tomorrow i will die in a flight accident
<fabbione> nobody will maintain it and it will have to be removed
<fabbione> anyway i don't have anything more to say
<fabbione> i hope i was fast enough :-)
<Keybuk> ok, so everybody seems happy with the idea -- fabbione and elmo, can you draw up a plan between you ?
<doko> fabbione: when does you flight go tomorrow? ;)
<sabdfl> fabbione: thanks for this idea, it's awesome
<fabbione> no problem for that
<fabbione> doko: together with you :-)
<fabbione> sabdfl: welcome :-)
<elmo> Keybuk: k
<sabdfl> id be reassured if we could actually get some non-canonical guys keen enough to work on it
<sabdfl> so that would be a key test for "official" status
<fabbione> sabdfl: i am pretty sure we will.. i think they only need a kick to start
<sabdfl> it will be more resilient if it gets community momentum
<fabbione> sabdfl: i didn't decide a key moment to make it official
<fabbione> but i would say when we start receiving bugs on it, it will be a very good sign
<fabbione> clearly it is unsupported
<fabbione> but it is a key point
<Keybuk> I guess a port becomes an official when we've forgotten it's not an official one :)  we can decide that on a port-by-port basis until we've decided goals they need to meet
<Keybuk> pitti: you're up again, dropping support for Mozilla?
<fabbione> Keybuk: i agree, but there is also a limitation we need to take into account
<pitti> Keybuk: well, I asked myself if it is wort supporting Mozilla in Hoary
<fabbione> my sparc can't manage to keep up with * alone
<pitti> because we have Firefox and Thunderbird
<fabbione> so i know that i will be able to offer only main
<pitti> either we have to promote the locale* packages to main, or drop Mozilla to universe 
<sivang> I guess it's been relatively less used since firefox..
<Keybuk> pitti: Mozilla itself is main because it's a build-dependency of GNOME
<pitti> what's the general feeling about this?
<sabdfl> i'm ok with it
<pitti> Keybuk: for epiphany, yes
<seb128> it was
<pitti> Keybuk: but that does not mean that the debs need to be in main
<seb128> I've rebuilt epiphany/yelp/debhelp with firefox
<Keybuk> pitti: they do.
<sabdfl> seb128: nice
<Keybuk> seb128: are there any remaining dependencies on Mozilla itself?
<elmo> pitti: yeah, they do
<sabdfl> pitti: a main package can't depend on something outside main
<seb128> Keybuk: not on the base installation at least, I've removed the package for like a week now here
<pitti> well, can't we leave just the source in main?
<pitti> as with apache?
<Keybuk> seb128: what about evolution -> nspr-dev /
<seb128> hum, not looked on this
<Keybuk> I guess the way to find out is to remove Mozilla from the desktop seed
<Kamion> pitti: the buildds have now been changed to build main against only main
<Keybuk> and see where it falls
<pitti> okay, so if we want to fully support Mozilla in addition to FireFox, do we want to support translations, too?
<Kamion> pitti: so if there's a build-dependency on it in main, the binaries have to stay ...
<Keybuk> it sounds like seb128 has already done the hard work
<seb128> Keybuk: mozilla-browser is not needed by anything in main afaik
<pitti> Kamion: ah, okay. I thought only having the source package in main was possible
<sabdfl> pitti: do firefox / thunderbird do their translations the same way mozilla does?
<pitti> sabdfl: yes
<pitti> sabdfl: but they have their own set of locale debs
<Keybuk> sabdfl: are you happy with dropping Mozilla into universe, and just having Firefox and Epiphany in main?
<pitti> sabdfl: I already did the firefox and thunderbird debs today, but not mozilla
<sabdfl> well those will definitely fold into languagepacks
<sabdfl> lp#'s for oo.o, tbird, ffox
<pitti> sabdfl: as soon as we have real langpacks, yes
<pitti> sabdfl: right now, they stay as they are and are only pulled in as a dependency of a metapackage
<Kamion> epiphany-extensions build-deps on mozilla-dev which depends on mozilla-browser
<Kamion> swfdec has the same build-dep
<Keybuk> seb128: can you investigate those ... and check for any remaining build-deps ?
<seb128> Kamion: oups, I just need to rebuild epiphany-extensions
<pitti> As far as I understand, mozilla upstream will move to ffox/tbird in the long run
<Kamion> that's all germinate reports, anyway
<seb128> Keybuk: ok, I'll do
<pitti> so the question is how long they still support mozilla proper
<Keybuk> Kamion: if we drop mozilla from the seed, that's all that holds it in desktop?
<Kamion> we still need other stuff from the mozilla source package; evolution depends: libnss3, for example
<sabdfl> yes, i think mozilla is rapidly switching to ffox / tbird
<Kamion> Keybuk: it's not in desktop in the first place
<Kamion> it's in ship
<sabdfl> if it's a dependency, then it will say in main, so we have to do all the work to support it anyhow
<Kamion> dropping mozilla-psm from Ship would take mozilla-browser off the CD
<sabdfl> unless we can split out the source package pieces that are really needed for main
<Kamion> I'm not familiar with the consequences of dropping mozilla-psm
<Keybuk> does firefox use it?
<sabdfl> is that also used for firefox security?
<lamont_r> I think so
<pitti> I think mozilla-psm is not necessary for ffox
<sabdfl> ok, maybe pitti can look into whether we can do entirely without that source package in main
<pitti> at least I did not have it installed, but https:// works in ffox anyway
<pitti> yes
<sabdfl> and if so, we can drop it
<Keybuk> if we can do without the source, I'm all for dropping it
<sabdfl> elmo, keybuk, Kamion?
* lamont_r thought moz-psm handled password caching etc, no?
<sabdfl> i thought it did pki stuff
* lamont_r shrugs
<Kamion> dropping it from Ship's cool with me if somebody investigates it and finds that it has no effect
<lamont_r> (perfectly willing to be told I'm dead wrong...)
<seb128> mozilla-firefox doesn't recommends mozilla-psm, so it's probably not useful
<Keybuk> hm, I don't even have mozilla-psm installed -- and I use https and password cacheing all the time
<elmo> what kamion said
<pitti> it's necessary for mozilla proper to do SSL stuff, but not for ffox
<Kamion> that'd recover 10MB or so of space
<sabdfl> ok
<pitti> for translations :-) (SCNR)
<sabdfl> i think we're all in agreement
<pitti> I'll look into this
<pitti> dependency-wise
<sabdfl> can we also conduct a check with the user community?
<sabdfl> i think this would be a good start for the "Ubuntu Enhancement Proposal" process we discussed in oxford
<sabdfl> pitti, could you work up such a proposal with mako, and send it to -devel and -users?
<pitti> sure
<Kamion> the proposal should note that we can drop mozilla-browser from the CD without necessarily de-supporting it (as an option)
<sabdfl> it should be posted on the wiki, with room for people's comments below
<sabdfl> right, it could go to main
<fabbione> sorry guys.. i need to leave for today. Thanks a lot everybody :-)
<Keybuk> fabbione: thanks.
<sabdfl> cheers fabbione, enjoy the new kitchen
<fabbione> sabdfl: will do :-)
<Keybuk> fabbione: mind out of planes.
<pitti> bye fabbione 
<sabdfl> stay INside planes
<fabbione> lol
<Keybuk> pitti: ok, Thunderbird locale packages ...
<pitti> speaks for itself
<pitti> the mozilla-thunderbird-locale-* packages are currently in universe
<Keybuk> they're in universe now, should we move them to supported/main/etc. ?
<pitti> I think this is more an accident than deliberate, right?
<Keybuk> Kamion: ?
<sabdfl> yes, i think so
<pitti> I already changed them today to support language packs
<Kamion> seems straightforwardly correct to move them to main
<pitti> but if the langpack wants to depend on them, they must be main
<Kamion> put 'em with mozilla-firefox-locale-* in Supported
<pitti> okay, then this point is already finished :-)
<Keybuk> Kamion: agreed.
<sabdfl> Keybuk: next?
<Kamion> as long as all of them are up-to-date and usable with the current version
<pitti> no, they aren't
<pitti> Kamion: I will mail you which are
<Kamion> ok, pick those that are and seed them, then
<pitti> Kamion: same thing the other way round: many of the ffox locale packages are out of date
<Kamion> yep
<pitti> Kamion: I already have a list
<Keybuk> ongoing merge feedback -- I just wanted to get some feedback from the Ubuntu guys how well the ongoing merge process is doing, and whether they had any comments?
<Kamion> note that those are being aggressively updated/dropped in Debian at the moment
<pitti> I always wondered why you merge Debian changes against Ubuntu
<pitti> doing it the other way round would be more straigtforward
<Keybuk> pitti: because it works better about 70% of the time
<Kamion> Keybuk: I'm finding that the automerges tend to be a bit aggressive about running debconf-updatepo; they sometimes do it when there are no debian/po/ changes, producing some unnecessary diffs
<pitti> but if Debian and Ubuntu hav the same solution, we should prefer the Debian one, right?
<Keybuk> I've put some changes in today so it will try the other way around as well, and favour the one that drops less
<pitti> ah, nice
<Kamion> Keybuk: there seemed to be some missing merges too; rootskel 1.09 was uploaded to Debian two or three days ago, but there was no bug about it (I did it by hand today)
<Keybuk> elmo: ?
<elmo> yeah?
<Keybuk> has rootskell appeared in needs-merged.txt ?
<doko> the merges fail for packages with patches inside. Maybe just add a note to the REPORT file, that patch/dpatch files were found.
<elmo> Keybuk: yep
<Keybuk> Kamion: will probably appear tomorrow then
<Keybuk> there's usually 1-2 days delay between things happening
<elmo> Keybuk: well not anymore, but it was there when kamion asked about it
<Keybuk> "not anymore" ?
<Keybuk> oh, right
<Kamion> Keybuk: ah, fair enough
<Kamion> I'm not sure the work/ directories are helpful?
<Keybuk> Kamion: it only happens at about midday each day ... and depending on the exact situation of Open, snapshot.dn and our mirror, it might delay it a day or so
<Keybuk> you get work directories?
<pitti> yes, I already got some of them
<Kamion> they've appeared in a number of candidate merged source packages, some people have forgotten to remove them on upload
<pitti> I just deleted them
<pitti> but one can forget about this
<Kamion> they just have ,,magic-reject files
<lamont_r> Keybuk: having the unmolested input .dsc/diff.gz would be nice as well, although that's seldom really needed
<Keybuk> Kamion: d'oh ... will fix that bug :p  they're supposed to go elsewhere <g>
<Keybuk> ENOos.path.abspath
<Kamion> would it be possible to get the code in a form that it can be run by hand, or is that impractical at the moment?
<Keybuk> well, you can check it out and fiddle with the code to make it do one-shot things
<Keybuk> scott@canonical.com--2004/merge-o-matic--devel--0
<Keybuk> and you'll need "deb" from
<Keybuk> scott@canonical.com--2004/sourcerer--devel--0
<Keybuk> and "util" from
<Keybuk> scott@canonical.com--2004/hct--devel--0
<Keybuk> ok.
<Keybuk> any other business?
<sabdfl> nothing from me
<Keybuk> I've added an agenda item to next week's community council meeting for those people who asked for upload earlier to present themselves to the CC for approval
<Kamion> nope
<Kamion> Keybuk: thanks
<Keybuk> ok, thanks very much everybody.
<seb128> Keybuk: do we have a webcal for hte meetings ?
<seb128> s/hte/the/
<daniels> Keybuk: thanks dude
<Keybuk> seb128: no, they're just every two weeks.  TB/CC on alternate Tuesdays
* smurfix waves
<sabdfl> thanks all
<seb128> Keybuk: ok
<lamont_r> thanks Keybuk
<sabdfl> keybuk, thanks for sitting in The Chair
<seb128> thanks Keybuk :)
<sabdfl> cheers all
<pitti> happy hacking, folks
<doko> see you
<amu> cheers
* cenerentola is away: I'm busy
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-28
<ogra> additionally he and his mates made the http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdLabelAndSlip for us
<mhz> mako: bye
<\sh> which looks really nice...good work mhz
<kjcole> mako: bye!
<mhz> \sh: thx
<Seveas> nice artwork
<ogra> i'd like to see him as member, and he wants to take over responsibility for a chilenian/latin american edubuntu mailing list ... which i appreciate very much
<mhz> \sh: thxubunut
<mhz> Seveas: also, one of the new comers and us are organizing the Free Software Institute for LAtin America, and are already working on training course about ubuntu
<Seveas> ogra, how long has he been contributing to edubuntu?
<ogra> Seveas, since #edubunt exists
<ogra> +u
<Seveas> mhz, very cool, please make it available in english too :)
<Kamion> ~5 months I think
<ogra> he's a guy of the first hour in #edubuntu
<Kamion> is that accurate?
<ogra> yup
<Seveas> fwiw, my doubts about mhz that I had after reading the wikipage are gone
<mhz> Seveas: sure as soon as we can finish the spanish one and test it, then we can translate it
<mhz> Seveas: hehee, thx
<Kamion> I'm happy to say yes based on what I know from beforehand
<mhz> Kamion: i appreciate it
<ogra> elmo, ?
<mhz> ogra: thank you very much for your confidence
<mhz> elmo: can i add i did some help to Henrik when you guys were even thinking of moving to Moin?
<elmo> sorry, one sec, need to catch up
<ogra> oh, yes, mhz is moin wiki specialist :)
<mhz> maybe that doesnt involve ubuntu directly :)
<ogra> not really, but was very helpful very often already *g*
<mdke> yes he helped when we moved away from zwiki
<mhz> heheh
<MagicFab> Can someone explain what mako meant by "work with me for the next 2 weeks"?
<ogra> MagicFab, you ? 
<mdke> MagicFab, exchange emails etc
<Seveas> MagicFab, he'll contact you and give pointers on what to do
<elmo> ogra: what are you pinging me for?
<Seveas> elmo, +1/0/-1 on mhz 
<ogra> elmo, mhz membership approval
<elmo> didn't we lose mako tho?
<ogra> hmm, yes
<ogra> grmpf
<Seveas> yes, but mako said that Kamion and elmo could vote already
<Seveas> <mako> please, go ahead, i'll reconnect ASAP and comment on the log.. take votes from the other two :)
<ogra> elmo, <mako> if you get kamion and elmo to agree, i doubt you will get a fight from me :)
<mhz> hehhe
<elmo> blah, one more sec, then
<ogra> take your time :)
<mhz> elmo: you can also see info about my talks
<mhz> :)
<Seveas> After that there are 2 more iems on the agenda: Scheduling the next meeting and the SebPayne issue
<Seveas> (the latter is not on the wiki, we all forgot about it I think :))
<elmo> ack for mhz
<ogra> yay
<Seveas> cool
<Seveas> mhz,you'll make it :)
<mhz> what is the meaning of ack (me not english native)
<Kamion> mhz: acknowledge
<GnuKemist> mhz: congrats!
* kjcole waited patiently...
<Seveas> mhz, that he wants you as member
<mhz> elmo: thx!!!
<ogra> mhz congrats
<Seveas> kjcole, oops
<MarioMeyer> congrats, mhz 
<mhz> Seveas: gooooogle
<\sh> congrats mhz :)
<mhz> ogra: educooool
<Seveas> completely skipped that
<juliux> congrats mhz 
<kjcole> I had an item earlier on the agenda that got missed.
<ogra> hehe
<mhz> Kamion: thx, indeed
<Seveas> kjcole, you should have shouted :)
<Seveas> sorry
<mhz> \sh: me much more relief now, thx
<mhz> juliux: 2 u 2
<kjcole> I'm not an assertive guy. ;-)
<mdke> seveas you are losing your touch
<\sh> mhz: it can be a hard time :) 
<Seveas> kjcole's proposal is about 3-letter codes for locoteams
<mdke> :)
<Seveas> Kamion, elmo, what are your thoughts about this?
<mdke> welcome mhz 
<mhz> GnuKemist: thx
<mhz> mdke: thx
<mhz> thx to you all guys :D
<\sh> iso code?
<Seveas> airport codes
<\sh> oh well..
<elmo> I'm not sure I understand the proposal?
<Seveas> (don't know whether that's an iso standard - anyone?)
<kjcole> Background: 
<MagicFab> I have to go - but I must say there should be some other way of measuring involvement, I almost feel insulted
<GnuKemist> MagicFab: don't
* ogra would have a hard time to get airport code for his area ... there are some sports airports though
<kjcole> I was talking to mdub at UBZ about mailing lists, etc for the Washington, DC loco
<Kamion> is this like ubuntu.tx.us?
<GnuKemist> MagicFab: I'm sure you'll make it
<\sh> ogra: u have a 4 letter airport code ,-)
<Seveas> elmo, simply said: if you want 2 locoteams in the US, name them ubuntu-lax and ubuntu-wdc for instamce (for LA and DC)
<ogra> \sh, ??
<\sh> ogra: rohr :)
<kjcole> He said it LoCo's sorta became CoCo's (Country Communities) and there wasn't namespace for
<mdke> let's hear kjcole's proposal
<Kamion> I would have thought that the DNS subdivisions would be a better way to do that
<kjcole> smaller stuff.  
<ogra> \sh, lets keep it english.... pipe ;)
<smurf> ogra: airports have a four-letter-code (every one of them, cryptic) and a three-letter-one (commercial airports only, somewhat understandable abbrev unless you're in canada)
<kjcole> I argued that "LoCo" usually meant more "local" than that, and he agreed, but didn't want to create "ubuntu-us-washington-dc" etc
<Seveas> Kamion, I'd think so too - plus it's easier to setup since all ubuntu-CC.org domains are already in canonicals hands
<ogra> smurf, even sports airports ? i live 10km away from one :)
<kjcole> Something short and sweet.  ubuntu-dca would work... (DCA being the code for Washington National Airport)
<Seveas> kjcole, how about ubuntu-us-dca and/or dca.ubuntu-us.org?
<Kamion> I really think airport codes are a pretty obscure way to do this sort of thing
<smurf> ogra: it should have one
<mdke> me too
* smurf agrees with kamion
<ogra> smurf, cool, i'll try to find it out then :)
<GnuKemist> not sure this is really usefull... no insult...
<kjcole> 3-leter codes are more uiniversal. Would work well in other countries that have airports.
<MarioMeyer> in Brazil we are already planning regional subdomains to ubuntu-br.org
<Seveas> MarioMeyer, how are you going to name them?
<\sh> Kamion: it is
<MarioMeyer> like rj.ubuntu-br.org
<GnuKemist> MarioMeyer: we are?  ;)
<Seveas> rj for Rio?
<MarioMeyer> where RJ is the 2 letter code for the state of Rio de Janeiro
<smurf> IMHO regional subdomains make more sense, and I wouldn't proscribe their form -- that's too country specific
<Seveas> smurf++
<Kamion> kjcole: I don't think it needs to be universal - you can do country+subdivision
<dholbach> yes, that makesmost sense
<Kamion> which is easier to handle if you don't happen to have a list of airport codes in your head :)
<\sh> smurf: i think the idea of having ffm.ubuntu-de.org is much better then having airportcodes as suffix
<smurf> as we already have *lots* of ubuntu-??.org domains, I do hesitate to register even more of them
<Seveas> \sh, you could even du frankfurt.ubuntu-de.org :)
<GnuKemist> \sh:  and ffm stands for?
<\sh> Seveas: yeah..:)
<Seveas> Frankfurt am Main
<\sh> GnuKemist: frankfurt/main
<ogra> GnuKemist, frenkfurt
<GnuKemist> ahh
<Seveas> there's frankfurt/universe too
<Seveas> for the MOTU :)
<ogra> lol
* smurf is not looking forward to sending Canonical a 100-page invoice for 5000 domains in a few years
<GnuKemist> so we'd add the 2 letter abbreviation of the local states to the team?
<dholbach> :)
<kjcole> I'm not committed to the airport code idea, but it was one option.  As for remembering them, that's what the wiki's for. ;-)  (Whatever scheme is chosen, longer name could be provided on the 
<\sh> smurf: peanuts ,)
<Seveas> kjcole, cool, so this is settled then?
<kjcole> LoCoTeams page and a link to the short name.
<Kamion> create this sort of thing on demand, I think - e.g. the UK doesn't need subdivided teams, but the US does
<\sh> kjcole: subdomains with country or area codes are much easier for the local people...airportcodes..i think nobody can think about that
<GnuKemist> how many letters?
<Seveas> GnuKemist, you decide :)
<GnuKemist> hehe
<GnuKemist> 2 then
<GnuKemist> it is universal I think
<Seveas> ok, anyone has more questions/remarks?
<GnuKemist> all US staes use 2
<GnuKemist> states
<\sh> GnuKemist: i think this depends on the fantasy of the people...rio.ubuntu-br.org or rj or whatever
<kjcole> OK.  (Guess I've always had some familiarity with the airport codes of interest to me. I was assuming local folks would know their own.)
<Seveas> kcole, for the administsative tasks regarding setting up these subdomains you can simply contact smurf, he administers all ubuntu-CC.org domains
<MarioMeyer> rio would sound like the City of Rio.. and rj would be the State...
<MarioMeyer> which are named equally
<GnuKemist> \sh: people could do riolandofcarnival.blah
<Seveas> let's move on and not get dragged away in names...
<GnuKemist> ;)
<kjcole> Will contact Smurf then.
<Seveas> SebPayne was supposed to deliver a progress report today as part of being approved as a member
<smurf> kjcole: Just make sure you all agree on a naming scheme *first*. ;-)
<Seveas> however, his wikipage hasn't changed since oct. 30 and apart from begging for an IRC cloak I heared nothing from him
<Seveas> anyone with better news?
<dholbach> Seveas: none
<Kamion> (did we explicitly tell him *he* needed to deliver a report? my memory is that we said "we'll revisit this in a month" or something equally vague :-/)
<dholbach> Seveas: i didnt see him much around in #ubuntu-motu either
<ogra> nope
<Seveas> Kamion, we did
<smurf> Kamion: I think so
<ogra> yp
<ogra> yup
<Kamion> ok
* MarioMeyer leaving.. cyall
<Seveas> cya MarioMeyer 
<smurf> Ping him and tell him to give us an update at the next cc meeting?
<\sh> sebpayne was who?
<Seveas> So what to do with this? Insist that he shows up next time with this report? deactivate?
<Seveas> spayne
<Kamion> there is a progress report there, even though it was last edited on the 30th
<Ubuntuser_BA> i'll be back in 2 weeks... ;)
<GnuKemist> Ubuntuser_BA: ;)
<Seveas> Shall I ask him to come to the next meeting?
<Kamion> if somebody could ping him, that would be good; he does need to show up
<Seveas> ok, I;ll do that
<smurf> Seveas: +1
<Ubuntuser_BA> ;)
<Kamion> his membership will automatically deactivate on the 26th
<Seveas> If i'm not forgetting more, only datetime of next meeting should be decided
<\sh> ah..
<Kamion> (I set the expiration date to one month from the meeting in which he was approved ...)
<\sh> spayne..now 
<dsas> Could I just quickly bring something up re launchpad and ubuntu teams?
<mhz> Seveas: what about edubuntu.cl ? or those flavours?
<mhz> .oO(too many flavours could mean too many problems with names)
<mhz> Seveas: I like that edubuntu.ubuntu-cl.org
<Kamion> dsas: sure (under any other business)
<mhz> or santiago.ubuntu-cl.org
<mhz> etc
<dsas> Would it be possible to encourage a policy which says that each ubuntu group on launchpad has at least two administrators, where feasible?
<mhz> smurf: that santiago.ubuntu-cl.org is good because we reuse same resources, more efficently. I agree
<dsas> At the moment groups with only one Administrator run the risk of having that administrator be a bottleneck for approving new members. That will become more of an issue closer to release date as everyone gets busier.
<mhz> smurf: maybe in Chile we have more problems with regions unless we can use 1.ubuntu-cl.org  In chile we use numbers for regions
<Seveas> dsas, that should be decided within the group
<Kamion> dsas: from personal experience I know that's not feasible for all groups
<smurf> mhz: not a problem, if somewhat unusual
<mhz> good
<Kamion> but perhaps something can be done in the Launchpad UI to encourage adding people you trust as administrators
<mdke> dsas, if you have a problem with a group, best thing is to email them or contact them another way
<mhz> smurf: I had booked edubuntu.cl  So it is not necesary? should we use edubuntu.ubuntu-cl.org?
<Seveas> Kamion, while you're approving, could you approve David Larlet
<Seveas> he was accepted oct. 25
<dsas> Right ok, having difficulty getting in touch with the admin of a group, but apparently he's not been saw online for the last few days, so I'll try and get in touch in a weeks time.
<Seveas> but wasn't registered on launchpad back then
<Kamion> if there are possible UI enhancements, do bring those up on #launchpad, or as bug reports
<StrikeForce> When do you go through the approval process?
<StrikeForce> or have I missed that?
<StrikeForce> I came in a bit late :(
<Seveas> we already did that StrikeForce 
<StrikeForce> no worries 
<Kamion> StrikeForce: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for instructions; we're looking for sustained (multi-month), significant contributions
<StrikeForce> Kamion, I have but I did it through launchpad
<Seveas> last item: Date/time of the next meeting. Shall I ping all regular CC meeting visitors and ubuntu-devel to coordinate new times?
<StrikeForce> Kamion, the signing and all of that
<ogra> at least 4 weeks of contribution and forseeable ongoing activity ...
<\sh> Seveas: in 2 weeks time :)
<StrikeForce> ogra, re packaging?
<Seveas> \sh, it's feasible :)
<ogra> StrikeForce, yes ?
<Seveas> StrikeForce, please discuss this after the meeting
<Kamion> Seveas: David Larlet done, thanks for chasing that up
<Seveas> Kamion, thnx
<Kamion> StrikeForce: for the moment, you do need to bring this up on the agenda or we won't notice, sorry
<Seveas> \sh, I have a secret plan already :)
<\sh> Seveas: post it on the fridge :)
<Kamion> let's do the next meeting two weeks from now as per usual; perhaps we can convene people specially to talk to Rolando Blanco, since he can't do Tuesdays
<david`bgk> thanks Kamion 
<Seveas> Kamion, ok, but mako sort of complained abot the scheduled times in general
<Seveas> I think coming up with a better schedule may be worthwile - since people from .au/.nz for instance have a hard time showing up
<Kamion> we can't discuss that with him absent; we'll have to sort it out next time round
<Seveas> true, but I could gather some opinions already
<Kamion> likewise sabdfl, I don't know his schedule well enough to comment
<mhz> Seveas: what if we rotate shcedules?
<StrikeForce> due to work committments
<Seveas> mhz, we already do
<\sh> Seveas: should we change times like for TB?
<mhz> ohh
<Kamion> the sad fact is that it has to be reasonably convenient for the CC otherwise it won't happen
<Kamion> with three of us on London time we are somewhat constrained
<Seveas> even then the schedule can be improved
<Kamion> we've tried rotating times, and the 6am one was laughably inquorate :-)
<Seveas> currently it's 14:00 / 22:00 - that's only 8 hours apart
<Kamion> 14:00 is harsh on mako
<Seveas> hehe :)
<mhz> Kamion: heheh
<Seveas> anyway, I propose that we all think about this for the next meeting and end this one here :)
<Kamion> I can handle back to 09:00 or so (08:00 is hard because the child is getting ready for school), but again that's getting pretty late for mako
<mhz> Kamion: indeed. however, if meetings take place every 2 weeks, then there is not much sufferinf
<mhz> suffering
<Kamion> mhz: I'm speaking as somebody who *has* to show up :P
<mhz> ahh
<juliux> gn8 everybody
<ogra> and who cant make tuesdays
<Seveas> gn8 juliux 
<GnuKemist> well, I guess I'll check back with you guys...  cheers
<ogra> night juliux 
<mhz> juliux: bye, congrats and thx
<Kamion> ok, let's make it 14:00 in two weeks time, and we'll discuss it more then with everyone present
<\sh> juliux: sleep well...and again congrats
<Kamion> thanks for showing up, everyone
<Seveas> ack, see you all in 2 weeks :)
<Kamion> meeting closed
* Seveas hammers everyone out
<mhz> okidoki
* mvo wishes a good night
<kjcole> 09:00 UTC?  ... -5:00 = 04:00 EST. ;-)  Oh well. 
<\sh> Seveas: outch
<kjcole> Ta-ta all.
<mdke> bye
<Seveas>  /savelog
<Seveas> meh - crap
<Seveas> gonna grab the log and write the report tomorrow
<Seveas> 'night all :)
<StrikeForce> night
<dsas> night
<Kamion> Seveas: thanks, dude
<StrikeForce> Welltime to get ready for work :(
<dholbach> night Seveas 
<Seveas> gotta go to my fiancee now - she's sick :(
<StrikeForce> hopefully I make it on time next time :(
<Seveas> that's why she yelled, needed a bucket :/
<\sh> Seveas: oh..hope she will get better soon 
* Seveas too
* Seveas afk
<\sh> my wishes...
<ogra> Seveas, i know how you feel... we're not engaged, but i had to hunt medicine as well today :)
* \sh goes to bed, too...RL work has prio 1
<ogra> \sh, pfft, they'll fire you anyway ... no matter if you do your work properly
<sistpoty> gn8 \sh
* mitsuhiko too
<ogra> ...the fun of economization
<\sh> ogra: that is correct..but the best thing is to play by the rules...
<ogra> \sh, sure, i dont want to get you out of your job...
<\sh> ogra: but husti will be fired before me :)
<ogra> heh
* mako is back
<mako> sort of
<ogra> he never had any clue about his work
<mako> still in the meeting
<\sh> i think so..he looks like that it can happen every time soon
<\sh> mako: read the logs say yes...go back to your meeting and send me one of those 100$ laptops :)
<ogra> lol
* ogra wants one too
<\sh> ogra: actually I had a question about this 100$ laptop...if it is good for firefighters work :)
<ogra> you want to be a fireman ? 
<\sh> ogra: rochus was asking...since I spread all those ubuntu cds, I have to talk about linux, ubuntu, projects, nifty tools, bread for the world etc.
<ogra> \sh, the 100$ lappie is not for the public ... it will only be sold to schools
<MarioMeyer> meeting over yet?
<\sh> ogra: I read the MIT pages now 30 times :) 
<ogra> MarioMeyer, yup
<MarioMeyer> :P
<ogra> \sh, mako can tell you more i guess ... but i'm pretty sure you cant buy it anywhere for 100$
<MarioMeyer> ogra you are on motu, arent u?
<ogra> MarioMeyer, sort of, yes
<\sh> ogra: i'm more interested how to spread this news...german schools could need those tools as well...when I see the it infrastructure in schools here...it's horrible
<MarioMeyer> do you know if there are any plans for a php5-mysqli package?
<ogra> mysqli ?
<\sh> MarioMeyer: php5 is main...ask infinity
<MarioMeyer> mysql improved
<MarioMeyer> hummm
<ogra> never heard of that ...
<\sh> MarioMeyer: infinity is sort of php5 maintainer in ubuntu and debian(?)
<ogra> i know php5-mysql though
<MarioMeyer> thx, \sh 
<\sh> ogra: there is a diff. between mysql and mysqli
<MarioMeyer> mysqli is Object Oriented
<\sh> but anyways...I need to go to bed...
<MarioMeyer> with other improvements
<mako> ogra, \sh i'll tell you more when i get out of here
<\sh> mako: i'll mail u..this is easier....
<\sh> ogra: gute besserung to susus
<ogra> i'll tell her
<ogra> \sh, she says thanks :)
<\sh> ogra: she should sleep...give her some rum and hot water, mixed together with some sugar .. and she sleeps one week :)
<\sh> well...I sleep now...good night everybody...*disappeared*
<ogra> heh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 23 Nov 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 07 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Community Council
<JaneW> hi all
<juliux> hi
<JaneW> **roll call**
<JaneW> I'll note who was at each meeting so that if decision are taken, we'll have a record of who participated in them
<Simira> morning JaneW 
<JaneW> hi Simira 
* mhz is here, alive and kicking
<JaneW> so if you want to be listed say 'here' now
<mhz> JaneW: hi Ms. Cakes
* JaneW notes the silence ;)
<JaneW> hi mhz
<ogra> here
<juliux> JaneW, here
<ogra> :)
<ogra> where is flint 
<mhz> everybosy say 'here' and put your hands in the air
* Seveas waves
<crimsun> here
<juliux> but i cann't promise that i can be at all meetings  because 12 UTC isn't a goog time for students
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
<JaneW> hi kjcole 
<mhz> juliux: but yor are not a student... you are an ubuntu memeber :)
<spacey> hi
<juliux> mhz, argh
<mhz> hehehe
<kjcole> Well, I want a reasonable New York time... or we'll invade your country and bring "freedom and democracy". ;-)
<mhz> kjcole: lol
<Seveas> spoken like a true Bush :)
<juliux> kjcole, lol
<mhz> you have already
<juliux> kjcole, come on, i will wait for you here
<kjcole> We'll do it again! And get it right THIS time... for sure!!!
<juliux> *g*
<mhz> juliux: maybe you could play some german experiments on kjcole 
<mhz> :)
<juliux> mhz, we have in germany something thats called "suse"
<mhz> juliux: LOL!!
<kjcole> Noooooo!
* ogra wonders what "german experiments" might be
<mhz> ogra: simply adding lemon juice to his wounds will do
<spacey> JaneW, here :>
<juliux> ogra, merkel?
<ogra> ah, yes, suse ... but thats not german anymore ;)
<mhz> indeed
<ogra> juliux, thats no experiment... thats simply just sucking
<ogra> hey flint
<kjcole> Mr. Flint... You just missed me being an Ugly American.
<juliux> ogra, ok
<ogra> morning
<flint> ya it is morman...
<juliux> hey flint 
<mhz> hi there flint 
<kjcole> Jeff Elkner said last night he'd be joining us this morning...
<mhz> wow, more people!
<flint> oh god.. it is early, hi kevin it is snowing in vermont...
<ogra> kjcole, he's in #edubuntu
<mhz> flint: unveliebalbe, its raining in Chile (this never happens in this time of year)
<ogra> heh, speaking of the devil 
<mhz> flint: maybe it is Day After tomorrow's efect
<flint> mhz, hey dude.
<mhz> hip
<ogra> JaneW, do we have something like an agenda ? 
<jelkner> kjcole: i'm here now (thanks to ogra)
<flint> mhz, it is beautiful anyway, what is up Jane?
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> jsgotangco: wb
<flint> hey jeff!
<jelkner> hey paul!
* jsgotangco accidentally closed client
<mhz> jsgotangco: was playing games again? :D
* jsgotangco playing guild wars atm
* ogra wonders if JaneW's line dropped again ....
<mhz> heheh
<ogra> seems common at this time of day
<jelkner> so what's on the agenda?
<ogra> heh
<kjcole> Jeff, after this meeting I'm at the Accessabilty/Special Needs meeting... (Different Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel)
<ogra> wb jane
<mhz> ogra: you are a geniuos
<Seveas> ogra was right :)
<flint> morning Jane...
<mhz> Seveas: no wonder he's Mr. Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> kjcole: what time is that?
<jane_> hi, what was the last thing I said that went through - please
* jsgotangco thought this was the a11y meeting
<kjcole> Was supposed to be one hour from now, but the fridge says two.
<ogra> jane_, should we move the meeting times a bit ? your line dropps every meeting around this time :)
<mhz> jane_: you said hi
<mhz> :)
<jsgotangco> we'll have to wait for henrik then or dholbach 
<Seveas> a11y is at 14:30 utc - it is 12:11 utc now...
<jane_> ogra: I know, it;s damn annoying!
<ogra> jsgotangco, this is edubuntu .... we'll have another one later
* jane_ is going to repeat comments...
<mhz> jane_: if you need me, i can go there and kick your ISP butt
<jsgotangco> ok (im supposed to be here anyways)
<jane_> Ok in order to make the session a bit more structured and make note taking quicker and easier let's try to stick to the following format for each meeting:
<jane_> We have following categories: Technical, 
<jane_>  , Documentation
<dholbach> i'm here too :)
<jane_>  , Art Work
<jane_>  , Community, Management etc
<jane_> let me know if there are others required...
<jane_> for each of these let's work though:  Progress in last week, Issues/Blocks, Planned Activities for next week. 
<ogra> looks fine to me
<mhz> jane_: Social
<jane_> we can also discuss requirements for additional meetings in any of these areas
<jane_> Ideally I'd like for each category to have a leader, or representative, who will discuss it
<ogra> mhz, community
<mhz> jane_: I meant education
<jsgotangco> Social is community imo
<jane_> is there agreement on this?
<jane_> hi dholbach 
<kjcole> Aye.
<mhz> ogra: would education be community too?
<jelkner> you're the boss, jane
<jsgotangco> basically
<flint> jane, what about educational as a category?
<mhz> flint: thx
<ogra> mhz, hat specific educational things would you like to discuss ? 
<jane_> I also mentioned that I will note who is present at each meeting, so that we have a record and know who partook in decision etc...
<flint> elkner is such a suckup...
<mhz> ogra: mainly, teachers work, students work, schools needs, etc
<mhz> ogra: or maybe they are Technical ?
<jelkner> i have a number of educational things i would like to discuss, but i think they are dapper+1
<flint> JaneW, the idea here is to develop coursework, but also as part of an operational category
<jane_> ok so we will start each week as usual with Oli, and hopefully his growing dev team on the technical, progress, issues and plans
<jelkner> mhz: it looks like the broader educational goals of edubuntu need to wait until after dapper
<ogra> mhz, i think they spread over the other categories
<mhz> flint: indeed. We'll start desingning training courses for teachers
<jane_> flint: I am not sure we are in aposition to develop course work at this stage
<mhz> flint: we = in chiel
<mhz> flint: we = in chile
<jane_> flint: we are still building a framework.
<mhz> jelkner: okis
<flint> na, you have a released product.  
<spacey> jane_, presence here:)
<jane_> thanks space
<jane_> y
<mhz> jane_: IIUC, we'll start with Technical?
* spacey herman
<ogra> ok, lets get started, my technical report is small this time ... i was busy with ubuntu stuff last week, but the Cd builds have started and i was promised a live filesystem for the liveCD this week
<spacey> :P
<jane_> ogra: and are you expecting it to build and work already ?:)
<ogra> i havent done much with ltsp the last week, but have started a little tool in my sparetime for managing ltsp setups
<flint> ...as opposed to a dead file systen :^(  I am all for that :^)
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/LTSPManager/
<flint> ogra, what and why a live file system?
<kjcole> Flint, for a LiveCD...
<ogra> if you want to test the CD, have a look at the report of the current build
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html
<spacey> ogra, looks fancy :)
<ogra> if its empty, it will most likely work
<flint> ogra, kjcole, oh yea, still sleepy...
<ogra> note that the CD depends on ubuntu, so if there is breakage at a low level in ubuntu, it will affect many packages
<jelkner> ogra: wow, oliver, that looks cool!
<ogra> feel free to contribute ;)
<ogra> flint, the live FS will be the base for the liveCD
<mhz> ogra: wow, nice work
<ogra> it will contain only the workstation install, no server parts yet
<flint> ogra, Gotcha... thanks.
<mhz> ogra: i agree WS are more important here
<ogra> but if ltsp manager might oonce work, we could ship it on the livecd together with the ltsp packages and it would be easy to setup
<mhz> atm
<mhz> indeed
<flint> so you can use the live cd to boot a workstation?
<ogra> but since i do it in my sparetime i'm not sure if it can make dapper ... if not some contributors step up 
<ogra> flint, you can use the liveCD as you use a ubuntu livecd
<ogra> just with the edubuntu desktop on top
<flint> gotcha... that talk of workstation confused me in my pre-coffee state.
<ogra> i mean the workstation install we offer on the install CD :)
<mhz> flint: hehehe
<ogra> my tech plans for next week:
<ogra> * getting ldm changed to please mdz's requirements
<ogra> (he's not yet happy with my code)
<ogra> * getting the sound stuff implemented completely ..
<flint> go ollie!
<ogra> * finishing the spects
<ogra> * having our first liveCD build 
<ogra> s/spects/specs
<jsgotangco> yay
<mhz> ogra: you know you have one "pain_in_the_back_ tester here
<mhz> ogra: thx for such load of work
<ogra> oh, and * doing some etherboot tests, it seems to become a problem that it wasnt tested proerly
<jane_> ogra: any issues/blocks?
<ogra> jane_, only mdz and his eagle eyes that find the bugs in my code ;)
<flint> mhz, ogra, I expect to be testing in my new lab in 1 week.
<jane_> ogra: LOL
<ogra> sound is merely done, just needs the code around it ...
<ogra> liveCd is mostly done by others, i only have to care for it to be done (indeed i want to know more about theprocess to be able to do this myself, but thats not relevant for the current CD)
<mhz> ogra: what yo mean by "etherboot tests, it seems to become a problem that it wasnt tested proerly"?
<mhz> ogra: others such as highvoltage?
<ogra> we have no proper solution for etherboot (nobody tested it for breezy) and the amount of support quetions wrt etherboot raises
<kjcole> (FYI: 12:30 UTC...)
<ogra> i got some etherboot cards at ubz, but havent worked with them yet, so setting up a client and do some tests is on my agenda for next week
<ogra> thats all from the tech side for now, any questions ? 
<juliux> ogra, the skolelinux people use eherboot i think
<ogra> juliux, yes, with ltsp 4.something
<jane_> guys please look at http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MeetingRecords and see if this format is useful
<juliux> ogra, and there will be some of them in essen so you/we can talk with them
<jane_> nothe that I am editing, so please don;t try to edit NOW
<ogra> juliux, that wont help
<juliux> ogra, ok i will be quite
<ogra> juliux, they are different implementations ... i need to find the right solution for our implementation
<juliux> ogra, ah ok
<ogra> which should be straight forward, once i have the HW set up :)
<kjcole> jane_, lots to read there, but at a quick skim, the MeetingRecords look pretty good.
<jane_> kjcole: focus on the tables near the top for now, that's the change
<mhz> jane_: wow! that takes time to wiki it! Thx. I would be ok with it, too, if it were only lisitings :)
<flint> jane_, how did you generate the outline.  That is very cool.
<jane_> I am thinking it's easier to skim through than a wad of notes
<jane_> flint: my copius wiki knowledge ;)
<flint> jane_, indeed!
<jelkner> jane_: looks great
<jane_> mhz: thanks for all your testing and other help
<mhz> jane_: np, I love what I do :)
<jane_> ogra: so are all your items covered in the table?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> looks good 
<crimsun> ogra: I'll ping you post-meeting RE: sound (read the spec on earlier)
<kjcole> jane_ clear, concise... I like it.
<ogra> crimsun, the spec isnt accurate yet ...
<mhz> jane_: however, i'd suggest that for your own time saving sake, you think of listing over tabling (in this current Moin version. Next will include 100% WYSIWYG editor)
<jane_> mhz: cool, cos table editting in moin suck atm!
<mhz> and so tables will be easier to deal with
<mhz> jane_: exactly!!!
<mhz> lol
<jane_> mhz: but I handled the BreezyGoals table, so I can do anything ;P
<ogra> heh
<mhz> jane_: current Moin beta already supports it
<jane_> ok, do we have a doc team person here today?
<mhz> jane_: indeed, you grok Moin syntax
<ogra> jsgotangco is here
<jsgotangco> aye
<jane_> hi jsgotangco :)
<kjcole> mhz, oh? Do tell! (Time for me to install the beta.)
<jane_> jsgotangco: are you still our man for Dapper?
* mhz is just a wiki person. still no docbook skills)
<ogra> there was a request for a "where to purchase" webpage 
<jsgotangco> jane_: hi :) sorry just got to talk to cvd over the phone 
<jane_> jsgotangco: hope we haven;t list you to the worl of cell phone gaming....
<jane_> world even
<mhz> kjcole: you'll love it
<jsgotangco> jane_: i'm always your man
<jane_> ogra: oh right, ok I'll add that
<jsgotangco> jane_: but i believe some people have started some stuff
<jsgotangco> like kjcole and elkner
<jsgotangco> ?
<jane_> ogra: any news on CD prints from your contact?
* kjcole finally installed Edubuntu (and am underslept), and have started fooling with docbook in earnest.
<jsgotangco> i'll be happy to help them out on the docbook conversion stuff
<jsgotangco> kjcole: you can focus on the writing...
<jane_> yes kjcole and jelkner how's that cookbook?
<jelkner> kjcole and i are meeting to start on the book next week
<ogra> jane_, not yet \sh is meeting him more often ...
<jane_> jelkner: awesome :))
<ogra> jane_, i know he already has edubuntu for sale in his online shop
* kjcole has also put in a small handful of documentation bugs for the current stuff into launchpad.
<mhz> jane_: sorry, is lightweight, Technical?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jane_> ogra: really? and how is it packaed?
<\sh> aeh...someone pinged me?
<ogra> \sh, amu and CD sales
<jane_> mhz: lightweight?
<ogra> jane_, i havent seen the packaging yet
<kjcole> jelkner, she's been hanging around you too long.
<ogra> probably \sh has
<flint> The cookbook is the update of the Tuxlab stuff?
<kjcole> flint, right.
<\sh> aeh...I never saw a cd of amu...but I can ask him to show me at least on of those...
<ogra> jane_, but i wanted to ask him to use our artwork
<jane_> ogra: If at all possible it would be nice if he used our stuff from mhz
<jane_> ^snap
<ogra> yup
<ogra> :)
<jane_> ogra: also if his version is more 'official' I'll list it above others...
<jane_> as a preferred option
<jsgotangco> kjcole: where are you doing it? some online rcs or something?
<ogra> i just pinged him in #kubuntu
<ogra> lets see, probably he likes to join
<mhz> jane_: cool if it is used (at least some) so I have more arguments to talk about with Pablo :)
<JaneW> mhz: exactly :))
<JaneW> mhz: however it means he'll need to design a whole new one for 6.04 ;P
<\sh> ogra: i pinged him as well on kubuntu-de
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> shall we discuss the translation issue and where / how to store translated wiki pages?
<mhz> JaneW: np, actually I have been drawing some stuff already :D
<JaneW> mhz: great
<JaneW> was there ever an Artwork team meeitng?
<kjcole> jsgotangco, I was trying to learn everything at once: docbook, bzr, launchpad, etc.  But since it's primarily just jelkner and myself, and we live 3 miles apart, we've agreed to speed things up and just get started via e-mail exchanges and/or shared access to a ssh-able account.
<JaneW> pips1 and highvoltage were going to arrange one
<flint> yea, but try to drive that 3 miles...
<mhz> JaneW: regarding lightweight, I am seriusly considering working on wmaker theming stuff, as many of the visits I have done to schools so far (about 6), IT stuff is really poor
<ogra> JaneW, did we document the new artwork requirements somewhere ? 
* ogra cant remember
<mhz> JaneW: no idea about artwork meetings
<jsgotangco> kjcole: if you're doing it in docbook and having a hard time, please let me know
<jsgotangco> kjcole: and i can set up an online repo so we can work with revision control
<kjcole> jsgotangco, so far, what I've seen of docbook doesn't look too difficult, but listening to others talk about it leads me to suspect perhaps I haven't looked deep enough to find such trouble. ;-)
<jelkner> mhz: can i get an email for you?  i'd like to ask you some questions about setting up for spanish learners...
<mhz> JaneW: is EdubuntuStudyPackages technical or doc?
<ogra> JaneW, oh, i see you have documented it i the meeting records ...
<flint> jsgotangco, it seems silly to set up YACVS when access to Bazar-NG is upon us...eh?
<mhz> jelkner: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
<ogra> JaneW, note that the artwork stuff is not related to ltsp ...
<mhz> sure
<jsgotangco> flint: not really....
<JaneW> ogra: yes but highvoltage wanted to create a team to manage the wiki, website and galleries etc
<jsgotangco> kjcole: well the docbook thing needs at least to render properly in Yelp if we want it in the distro
<JaneW> mhz: what is EdubuntuStudyPackages?
<ogra> JaneW, its under * Enhancements to LTSP - owner OliverGrawert
<jsgotangco> kjcole: its not really vodoo but it can be hairy sometimes
<ogra> JaneW, it should be a separate item :)
<mhz> JaneW: apt-get install mathematics-keduca (i.e.)
<JaneW> ogra: not anymore ;P
<ogra> heh
<mhz> JaneW: apt-get install chemestry-ghemical (i.e.)
<kjcole> flint, that was sort of my thinking: having never used any RVC, CVS, SubVersion, whatever, I figured I'd skip 'em all and go straight to bzr, so I wouldn't have to un-learn anything later.
<JaneW> mhz: yes it sounds like technical why?
<mhz> JaneW: because some LA guys (Venezuela and Chile, so far) we have started some planing on how to do it
<ogra> the packaging is technical, the content is doc 
<kjcole> Even if bzr's not quite ready for prime-time, it does appear to be getting used, so I thought "good 'nuf".
<mhz> JaneW: ogra has given some opinions actually, too
<ogra> same as the artwork packages
<flint> kjcole, you are the evil-knevil of version control.  Go ahead and jump!
<mhz> kjcole: I am also very close to start learning bzr, esp. for EdubuntuStudyPackages
<ogra> its very easy
<mhz> so it seems
<jsgotangco> very
<ogra> very very 
<ogra> :)
<kjcole> mhz, we definitely need to stay in touch (considering you also have an interest in the Accessible/Special Needs stuff too...)
<mhz> ogra: however, your 'easy' may be very diff from my 'easy' :D
<mhz> kjcole: indeed, sure.
<ogra> mhz, not really ... i never used version control systems before baz... and baz sucked... bzr is fun to use, especially thanks to Keybuk and his bzrk :)
<mhz> oh
<flint> ogra, kjcole has some german in his background, so it might be easier for him than the rest of us:^)
<mhz> I used svn once and it seemed easy when you understand what it does
<ogra> flint, no german knowledge required for bzr ;)
<JaneW> 5 minutes to go
<flint> for instance the only thinge easy for the irish are drinking and reproduction.
<JaneW> any other pressing items?
<JaneW> we seem to have no issues so far - which is good
<mhz> ArtWork/ theming
<JaneW> and so far progress seems faurly steady
<JaneW> fairly
<mhz> Doc/Translations of Edubuntu wiki pages
<JaneW> we just need to make sure we are on track for dev milestones
<JaneW> mhz: yes, did you see my e-mail?
<mhz> Community/I need to talk to some guy ogra pointed in order to get the edubuntu-cl ML
<mhz> JaneW: hmm, now I have :)
<ogra> that'd be jdub
<JaneW> mhz: yes jdub is in charge of all mailing lists
<JaneW> mhz: will it be a CHILE list or a general Spanish language list?
<mhz> JaneW: I also saw your spec on 'content'. EdubuntuStudyPackages is considered under that category?
<ogra> oh, just for info, i'll be at linuxtag in essen with \sh and juliux presenting edubuntu ....
<jelkner> JaneW: where is the spec on content?
<kjcole> ogra, bzrk... that graphic thing demo-ed at UBZ?  It looked like a neat package.  I'll have to dig it up.
<ogra> additionally there is a IRC based conference i will hold a talk about edubuntu: http://umeet.uninet.edu/
<mhz> JaneW: hmm, I usually prefer small stuff so you can give others more options to contribute. if it were my decision, I'd do it for latinamerica, because spanish is not quite the same, but spanish seems to be more universal concept
<ogra> kjcole, deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./
* JaneW just saw https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuStudyPackages for the first time now, so forgive me if I am a bit lost in this discussion...
<JaneW> what content?
<jelkner> EdubuntuStudyPackages
<mhz> JaneW: Doc/ or Marketing/ we are working on a paper to hand in with CD's. and also one for Edubuntu only
<ogra> JaneW, do you remember my library server idea from the beginning ? its nearly the same ...
<kjcole> ogra, thanks.
<mhz> in spanish 
<JaneW> ogra: oic, well yes it is a good idea
<JaneW> ogra: is someone going to own it and run with it?
<ogra> providing content for the signle apps
<ogra> mhz, ?
<JaneW> guys we need to wrap up and vacate the venue soon...
<JaneW> turn off the lights when you leave and head back to #edubuntu...
<mhz> ogra: ?
<flint> JaneW, mhz, how hard is it to cross link pages in moin?
<mhz> JaneW: this spec http://wiki.edubuntu.org/ExampleContent?highlight=%28spec%29%7C%28content%29
<JaneW> ogra: a bit like example content then?
<ogra> a bit more
<mhz> flint: piece of cake
<ogra> mhz, <JaneW> ogra: is someone going to own it and run with it?
<mhz> flint: i can help you in #edubuntu
<JaneW> flint just mention a page in another and hey presto
<mhz> ogra: own it? (my spanish attacks sometimes)
<jelkner> when is the next meeting?
<ogra> JaneW, its real teaching content, not only examples 
<flint> mhz, jane could could cross link edubuntu study packages to her page...
<JaneW> mhz: we can help with that, we just don;t have time to love to many whole things at once :)
<ogra> mhz, own it == take responsibility for it ...
<mhz> JaneW: ooooh
<mhz> ogra: I can, yes
<JaneW> ogra: well the ppl with teaching experience and qualifications should handle that
<jsgotangco> mhz: but those things are very country-centric but its your package so :)
* JaneW looks over towards the USA...
<mhz> jsgotangco: yes, but the effort can be translated 
<jelkner> JaneW: i *want* to get involved in that, i'm trying to figure out how...
<ogra> JaneW, yup... but packaging it is a ggod idea i think 
<mhz> jsgotangco: for example: content about Ubuntu Training Course
<jelkner> anyway, when is the next meeting (before we vacate)
<jelkner> ?
<flint> this is why i thought finding out more about scorm was a good thing...
<JaneW> yes I have kids to fecth
<jsgotangco> this looks like jdub's sample content stuff for dapper
<flint> I have coffee to drink.
<JaneW> I will finish the meeting notes in the next 10
<jsgotangco> (only that its not a sample)
<jelkner> JaneW: so, jane, when is the next meeting?
<JaneW> please edit/ add/ amend as necessary afterwards
<JaneW> jelkner: 6 days 23 hours
<jelkner> ahh
<jelkner> good
<ogra> JaneW, you noted that we have a a11y/edubuntu meeting at 14:30 UTC ?
<JaneW> same time, same place each week unless otherwise stated
<jelkner> ally?
<mhz> okidoki.
<JaneW> ogra: I didn't
<ogra> oh
<flint> nice stuff jane.  I declare a motion to adjourn.
<ogra> jelkner, accessibility
<JaneW> I may miss that or part of it, but I will try to be here at least some of the time
<JaneW> ciao
<mhz> flint: jelkner: would you be interested in packaging educational content?
<jelkner> mhz: sure would!
<ogra> bye JaneW and thanks
<flint> mhz,
<jelkner> bye jane
<flint> mhz, indeed I would.
<mhz> could we move back to#edubuntu?
<JaneW> thanks to all :)
<ogra> lets move over to #edubuntu 
<mhz> by JaneW thx
<flint> later jane
<jelkner> mhz: i'll talk to you more in an email...
<mhz> ok, jelkner 
* mhz is back to #edubuntu
<flint> mhz, email flint@flint.com
<kjcole> Ta'ta all.
<jelkner> kjcole: kevin, can we meet sunday on the book?
<kjcole> jelkner, As far as I know, yeah.  Thanksgiving affect your schedule?
<jelkner> i'll be back late saturday night, so sunday is a go
<kjcole> jelkner, see you sunday then.
<jelkner> great
<jelkner> cya
* kjcole is moving to #edubuntu
<mhz_breakfast> kjcole: we stillhave 30 mins, right?
<kjcole> mhz, I see that now.  I just looked at the fridge again, since there was no one else on the meeting channel. (I wish I hadn't run so fast.)
<jsgotangco> errr meeting?
<mhz_breakfast> jsgotangco: 12 more mins?
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> my clock is too fast then
* jsgotangco goes back to playing
<mhz> re
<jsgotangco> hiya
<dholbach> hey :)
<mhz> anyone know from henrik?
<dholbach> he's on irc
<dholbach> hey henrik :)
<mhz> hehe, hi hno73 
<hno73> yo 
<TheMuso> Hello all.
<jsgotangco> hiya
<mhz> HI ALL
<jsgotangco> shall we?
<dholbach> we still have some minutes to go
<mhz> yup
<jsgotangco> ok
<mhz> ohh
<mhz> ok
<kjcole> Hi-ho it's back to work we go... ;-)
<dholbach> ogra and janew are not yet back, are they? :)
<mhz> nope
* ogra is
* kjcole is returned.
<dholbach> did everybody have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals ?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<dholbach> if you want to discuss something specifically, i think now it's time to add it :)
* TheMuso brings it up in another console for reference.
<hno73> we can also do introductions
* hno73 is Henrik Omma
<TheMuso> I have added something in comments :)
<dholbach> hno73: good idea
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
<hno73> ah, yes also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals/Talk
* TheMuso is Luke Yelavich.
* mhz is MauricioHernandezZ.
<hno73> Perhaps we can add the points from today to that talk page
* jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
* ogra is Oliver Grawert
<dholbach> what do you think about, everybody stating his interest in the team? or a brief idea, he'd like to accomplish in it? or do you think we should take the goals page and discuss it from top to bottom?
<kjcole> dholbach, let's see what we all bring to the table here.
<dholbach> ok, who wants to start?
<jsgotangco> well i started blogging a lot about a11y generally
<jsgotangco> pushing in planet as well
* dholbach will take notes
<jsgotangco> the HandsFreeEmail exercise wsa really good
<ogra> i'm here because a11y might be intresting for inclusion in edubuntu, to find out which requirements for our specific apps like ltsp are needed etc ...
<dholbach> yeah, that was a brilliant idea
* jsgotangco did some cheating though
<TheMuso> As some of you probably know, I am the one responsible for the releases of the Hoary Live CD derivatives earlier this year. I have also started working on such a derivative based on Breezy, and in order to add extra features such as spoken feedback for language and keyboard selection, I have actually had to learn the architecture of the D-I system.
<TheMuso> So I am willing to help with CDs, screen reader implementation, at the very least.
<dholbach> TheMuso: do you have a webpage or something, where i could read up on your efforts?
<TheMuso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibleHoaryLiveCDDerivative
* TheMuso hasn't touched it since the last release earlier this year.
<dholbach> thanks
<mhz> I have great interests on any "bringing access of knowledge and IT to people" ideas and biz. I am totaly new to these a11y concepts but I do think it is fair from us we take care of such matters, so count on me.
<jsgotangco> i haven't tried that but i guess it has the AT tools by default?
<kjcole> I'm here because I'm trying to spread open-source in a hostile environment (hostile to open source), and the defense given is always "Deaf folks need special educational programs"
* jsgotangco issue really is that the common AT tools in gnome are not in the cd
<hno73> I have mobility impairment wehich has led me to be interested in this. I've been asked to look at a11y more generally, but I still need to catch up on VI stuff
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: Yes, but they need to be better integrated anyway.
<jsgotangco> OOo for example
<hno73> I also manage several websites, so I'm trying to make those more accessible now
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: OOo is receiving a bit of work to work with atk from some Novell guys.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<TheMuso> But far from usable. It does work with the java access bridge.
<mhz> TheMuso: but didnt novel fired many guys?
<jsgotangco> hno73: i need to ask you something later after this meeting
<TheMuso> mhz: I think so, but they are going with GTK, and I have a feeling accessibility may have been one reason why.
<kjcole> (FYI I'm at a university for deaf and hard-of-hearing. The campus also houses a primary and secondary school for deaf students.)
<mhz> kjcole: please wiki such info ;) so we all and others can notice
<dholbach> I work on GNOME for Ubuntu together with Sbastien, and I noticed in bug reports, that a lot of stuff doesn't work properly and is not, what people expect. I feel that many software is out there and was not considered for Ubuntu yet, so I'd try to get it in as soon as possible and we should do all we can to integrate this software to make Ubuntu as usable as possible.
<kjcole> mhz, I put up the SpecialNeeds page and linked it to the AccessibilityTeam last week.
<TheMuso> dholbach: Agreed.
<dholbach> However, I'm not very experienced with a11y technologies. I hope we can form goals, we can work on and get new people involved into this.
<mhz> kjcole: oh, yes, sorry
* TheMuso has been working with a11y on Linux for at least 2 and a half years.
* jsgotangco just started doing research
<hno73> I have some contacts with an AT-IT charity, AbilityNet, that may be able to provide some testing for us
<TheMuso> BTW guys. There is now an accessibility team in Launchpad, thanks to hno73.
<dholbach> oh cool
<mhz> thx hno73 
<dholbach> TheMuso: you have the URL to the team?
<mhz> hno73: :D http://www.omma.org.uk/mirror/
<jsgotangco> join it, its an open team at th emoment
<TheMuso> dholbach: Give me a minute.
<hno73> Should we also have some structure time-wise, like bi-weekly IRC meeting? To make sure we keep things turning over
<dholbach> as a first target, i'll try to get us an accessibility mailing list, so we can assign bugs to that list and we can discuss everything on there, to detach the team a bit from IRC :)
<hno73> uh, looks like I've broken that link ... ops
<jsgotangco> well we can start with the BOFs that weren't tackled during UBZ
<TheMuso> https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: A very good start.
<hno73> jsgotangco: ++
<mhz> hno73: i think every 2 weeks is good
<dholbach> yeah
<TheMuso> 2 weeks fine here.
<kjcole> Joined on launchpad.
* mhz joined too
<jsgotangco> can we add those bofs/specs in https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
<jsgotangco> ?
<TheMuso> I think it is a good idea.
<hno73> So, from a technical perspective, which of the goals on the wiki are low anging fruit?
<mhz> hno73: should yup
<mhz> sorry
<mhz> jsgotangco: yup
<hno73> dholbach, ogra ^
<hno73> hanging
<ogra> good question
<dholbach> yeah, it is
<ogra> what is already there ? 
<dholbach> i think we, as a team, should start on testing those features listed on the goals page
<jsgotangco> there's no AT solution for gdm for example
<ogra> i mean, stuff thats already packaged and working that we only need to arrange
<dholbach> and identify how they are wrong
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<TheMuso> But how can one define working with stuff like a11y? Different users have different levels of use from a program, for example gnopernicus.
<ogra> TheMuso, i think we need to spot the common bits first.... thats the low hanging fruit ...
<TheMuso> Right.
<jsgotangco> and how can we actually test them
<jsgotangco> a methodology perhaps?
<jsgotangco> or cheat sheet
<dholbach> i think we should start dividing the wiki page into different pages, like AccessibilityTeam/VisualImpairement
<dholbach> and then start listing problems we encounter on testing ubuntu from that perspective
<TheMuso> dholbach: Good idea.
<hno73> I'd like to see us identify some fairly easy items in this cycle, so we can actually tick some bioxes and build up a teams on the basis of those achievents
<dholbach> then we could have subpages for: spotted problems (list the upstream bugs, we file on those products), new software we want to have, test plans, ...
<kjcole> We need to recruit: Nothing like folks with a vested interest doing the testing -- in an organized fashion.  I keep trying to convince a blind friend to give Linux a go, but so far, no luck.  (Unfortunately, he's moved out of the area, so I can't give the "personal" touch to helping him get started.)
<dholbach> hno73: absolutely, once we have a plan with goals, we should prioritize them
<ogra> dholbach, having a metapackage and different debconf setups for these categories would be cool i think
<mhz> hno73: what if we could design a survey or poll? users could answer and hence we'll know needs in priority
<hno73> kjcole: right. I think the best way to recruit is to show that we have gotten one or two things in place
<dholbach> ogra: that's another question, how/when to enable those features
<TheMuso> mhz: THe problem is who will do the survey?
<TheMuso> As hno73 said, it might be better once we have a few good things in place and working.
<mhz> TheMuso: i can contact people here in chile who can help us
<dholbach> there are different sets of goals, i feel: agreeing on goals, doing testing, getting people involved/testing ubuntu
<mhz> i translate it 
<TheMuso> I am in touch with a large blind user community which could be handy.
<TheMuso> Which is worldwide.
<dholbach> and we should discuss them separately
<kjcole> Personal experience is there's a lot of resentment when a group of hearing people set out to create what's "best" for deaf folks, by trying to imagine themselves as deaf.
<hno73> TheMuso: who use Linux?
<dholbach> (and handle them separately on the wiki)
<dholbach> does that make sense?
<TheMuso> hno73: Not many at all.
<TheMuso> And they use the console, like me.
<mhz> good, IMHO, for us more IT friends it may be diff goals or priorities than other end users
<hno73> TheMuso: could we send out dapper test discs to them?
<TheMuso> For those who don't know, I have a vision impairement.
<kjcole> TheMuso, that sounds great!
<hno73> one problem is that testing often gets done after vthe release
<mhz> TheMuso: good point
<TheMuso> hno73: They are all contctable via mailing lists, but have chosen there distro of choice. Still worth a try if we point them to where we can download it.
<hno73> TheMuso: I guess you would say bash is better than the DOS console an day?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<TheMuso> One thing that would wu them for sure is having spoken installation.
<TheMuso> i.e. Ubuntu Express/Standard D-I.
<kjcole> dholbach, agreed (re: separate handling of separate issues).
<jsgotangco> that looks hard
<mhz> dholbach: yup, separate
<TheMuso> Spoken installation with software speech. It can be done with hardware already.
<TheMuso> Not implemented in Ubuntu yet, but has been done in Debian.
<dholbach> hm, i seem to have quite some lag :)
<TheMuso> Hardware speech this is.
<mhz> TheMuso: maybe we could talk to CuaimaProject guys. They are developing a MetaInstaller made in Python and some java (clients side)
<jsgotangco> how about thte hardware interfaces themselves? do we have good support?
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: For most of them, yes.
<TheMuso> But the screen reader as well as drivers is kernel code.
<mhz> TheMuso: has Python some work on speeching?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<ogra> mhz, the preferred way would be to use and improve d-i 
<TheMuso> mhz: GTK does via atk.
<mhz> oh
<ogra> or ubuntu express ....
<ogra> mhz, but indeed we can look at the code and grab ideas :)
<TheMuso> ogra: Am I right in guessing that even with Ubuntu Express, D-I will still be used for initial keyboard/language selection?
<dholbach> what do you think, should we do until the next meeting? (in two weeks time) how do we organize ourselves?
<hno73> I feel we should keep a close eye on the Ubuntu Express development and make sure they dont forget AT
* kjcole scratches head... D-I?
<dholbach> kjcole: debian-installer
<TheMuso> kjcole: Debian installer.
<hno73> since they are buyilding a new tool after all
<ogra> TheMuso, express will run from the liveCD which you still have to set up on boot, yes
* mhz is very excited with PythonEduLab. If python have some tools for this a11y goals, maybe we may package content, too
<TheMuso> Well we need that to be spoken, with either hardware or software speech.
<kjcole> dholbach, TheMusu, thanks.
<kjcole> s/u/o/
<TheMuso> ogra: Is there also the possibility that the standard d-i install may be available in cases where X cannot be configured correctly for the display hardware, or the user explicitly requests it?
<ogra> not on the liveCD as far as i know ...
<TheMuso> Ok.
<kjcole> For the next meeting, I'm going to try to bring in one hard-of-hearing student here, who's become a Linux fan and may have an insiders perspective.  (He's not at all technical. Just a basic user, who's found a whole new toybox to play in.)
<ogra> there will still be a d-i based installation iso available ... but the future for shipit will be the liveCD/express combo
<mhz> ogra: but IIRC, dev team told me users can choose a way to install instead of booting LiveCD?
<TheMuso> ogra: Understand. Well we should get both accessible.
<ogra> mhz, thats the DVD
<mhz> boo
<mhz> not fair
<mhz> kjcole: cool
<TheMuso> I have some ideas for speech accessibility.
<TheMuso> But lets not get too far ahead. :)
<hno73> TheMuso: wiki tem :)
<hno73> then
<mhz> ogra: sorry, that means X is a must to install from LiveCD?
<hno73> them
<ogra> mhz, yes, afaik
<jsgotangco> can we make a goal to at least make what's avaialble have improved integration?
* mhz sighs
<hno73> I think we should make some plans for testing
<dholbach> i thought we could have AccessibilityTeam/<Impairement>/{Software,Tests,Goals,Visions,TODO}
<TheMuso> That will be easier for keyboard accessibility I think.
<hno73> try to find people who can test and help them with submitting bugs
<jsgotangco> yes
<TheMuso> Indeed.
* jsgotangco has access to a school
* TheMuso has himself.
<hno73> these might not be people who are used to Linux or know what a BTS is
<mhz> hno73: any list of applications needing to be tested?
<TheMuso> hno73: That is the problem. Those who are used to using Linux are happy with what they have got, and if they were interested in seeing GNOME tools improve, they would be actively contributing.
* kjcole has access to three schools, but participation is the problem. ;-)
<hno73> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/AssistiveApplications for a start
<mhz> kjcole: particpation will come once we start evagelising 
<TheMuso> I think we need to have a few must-have features to get people's interests before we see some greater and wider participation in testing.
<mhz> hno73: duh! srry
<TheMuso> IMO
<hno73> We ned to make it easy, which is why I'm suggesting we send out physical discs
<TheMuso> I could certainly distribute discs here in Australia.
<hno73> So, what are the killer AT features? :)
<TheMuso> For vision impairement and those who need spoken output, software and hardware speech at first installation/language setup, and then in GNOME for Ubuntu Express, and for the standard D-I install.
<TheMuso> And have accessibility set up for them once the system boots for the first time.
<hno73> which is also the most controveetial
<jsgotangco> how big an issue AT is in AU?
<TheMuso> That is the single hardest thing for blind people to manage. They generally need to get help to install Linux, unless they have a hardware speech synthesizer.
<hno73> defaults are always controvertial
<kjcole> Forgetting the philisophical and technical for a moment, what's so great about Ubuntu that would induce someone who has problems with written and spoken language, to switch from what they already sort of know (i.e. Winblows)?
<mhz> TheMuso: could we have braille intructions as well?
<TheMuso> mhz: Yes.
<mhz> lke Cd-in
<TheMuso> hno73: You referring to things like speech rate?
<kjcole> Braille weighs a lot.
<jsgotangco> kjcole: we have an commitment to it (AT) explicitly
<hno73> TheMuso: no, to having AT features enabled by default
<TheMuso> kjcole: I think mhz was ferring to Braille displays.
<mhz> yup
<hno73> which is why the derivative is important
<kjcole> Or are we talking about Grade-2 encoded ASCII that prints nicely.
<hno73> but it needs wider distribution
<TheMuso> Thats why I am so strong of the opinion that a separate release is necessary.
<mhz> GUYS, i gotta run, I'l be back by night :( I hope this all gets logged in url as usual
<TheMuso> Thanks for coming mhz.
<mhz> sorry, Bye
<kjcole> TheMuso, my bad. ;-)
<dholbach> mhz: i'll write it up... bye :)
<dholbach> in software design, some people use 'personas', fictional people using the software - can we try testing ubuntu from that perspective? (like in the try-to-send-a-mail exercise?) does that makes sense? i say this, because i feel we should get started as the a11y team and not solely rely on getting other people testing it
<dholbach> (i'm not opposed to people testing ubuntu at all... :-))
<hno73> TheMuso: OK, lets talk afterwards about getting a dapper derivative running and getting it distributed a bit
<TheMuso> hno73: Ok.
<hno73> dholbach: sure, that sounds good
<dholbach> i just feel, we need to get started, somewhere :)
<TheMuso> If we tried to think of test like the email exercise, that could work.
<dholbach> and apart from distribution/testing i don't see much goals yet
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> at least we're just spewing out ideas at the moment
<ogra> categorization ? 
<TheMuso> I think everything else is so tangled with each other, that it is hard to get one a11y goal settled upon.
<dholbach> it's hard, yes
<dholbach> we could investigate in software, that is not in ubuntu yet, we could come up with test plans based on whatever the impairement is and start to make notes, what does not "just work"
<hno73> I think it's ok if we make it clear that these are hypothetic cases, because otherwise we get stuck in 'everyone has individual needs' debates
<hno73> so the stereotyping of users needs to have a clear justification, but then it can work
<hno73> (we know that this is a good method, but others might find it odd)
<kjcole> I'll try to find out if there's been any good studies on deafness and computer literacy (since it's primarily literacy that's an issue in the community I know best).
<jsgotangco> i'm interestred in mobility impaired issues
<dholbach> i will start separating the wiki pages tonight, so that's it's easier to chip in any information we might find useful
<hno73> cool
<dholbach> i found dogtail, a tool to test UIs from a a11y perspective - i have no idea, how it works, but i'll take a look into it
<dholbach> at-poke was another one
<dholbach> i'll try to get them into dapper asap
<kjcole> Sounds like we have the beginnings of plans. ;-)
<ogra> dholbach, dogtail also tests a11y ??
* jsgotangco wonders what's with the names
<ogra> i only know it as a general testing tool
<hno73> I can start on designing some use cases, but I think they should be debated a bit
<hno73> so we can determine where the boundaries go
<dholbach> ogra: "dogtail is a GUI test tool and automation framework written in Python. It uses Accessibility (a11y) technologies to communicate with desktop applications." :)
<TheMuso> Nice.
<dholbach> hno73: that's super - we can discuss them in the next meeting
<hno73> dholbach: great
<dholbach> and i'll try to take care of the mailing list
<dholbach> i'll announce it on ubuntu-devel-announce@ as soon as it's there
<TheMuso> dholbach: That would be great.
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> the bugs we currently get for a11y are not that much, so i consider assigning them to the mailing list as well (at least as a QA contact)
<dholbach> so we're aware of what happens
<TheMuso> Ok.
<dholbach> and what our users think
<dholbach> does somebody have contact to other a11y teams?
<hno73> the elusive mailing list :)
<dholbach> like gnome, debian, redhat, sun, ...?
<TheMuso> dholbach: I am on the speakup mailing list, but that is more users and one or two developers.
<hno73> a bit with the gnome team
<TheMuso> I am on the gnome accessibility user and devel lists, as well as the kde accessibility user list.
<hno73> It's all very spread around
<dholbach> it will be good to see, which problems they're facing, what they work on and what they have achieved, so we're up to scratch :)
* zyga has an a11y related idea
<TheMuso> I am also on the linux for blind general discussion list.
<dholbach> TheMuso: WOW!
<zyga> phone
<TheMuso> dholbach: The traffic is very little.
<dholbach> it would be cool, if we could do some "market research" until next time
<hno73> I think Sun manages to keep a general level of activity going because they pay 3-4 people to work on it
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<hno73> but I'm not aware of any very active grass-roots teams
<TheMuso> And there is also Michael Meeks from Novell.
<TheMuso> Mostly, it is users asking questions about magnification, and users having problem with gnopernicus.
<hno73> :)
<TheMuso> The festival problem is a big one.
<dholbach> yeah, we need to have clearly in mind, that we cannot do much upstream development
<dholbach> unless somebody steps up for it
<dholbach> a working festival would be great
<hno73> Perhaps we should start by identifying stuff that works in Debian but is broken in Ubuntu :(
<TheMuso> IMO, gnopernicus is not the answer.
<dholbach> hno73: ++
<dholbach> ogra: do you think edubuntu has different requirements than ubuntu?
* TheMuso will set up a Debian installer ASAP, and get GNOME and a11y tools on.
<TheMuso> s/installer/install/
<dholbach> does anybody of you actively use KDE?
<hno73> I think we should avoid focusing on existing technology that sucks
* jsgotangco does
<hno73> when there is better stuff on the horizon
<ogra> dholbach, not edubuntu specifically, but ltsp
<TheMuso> hno73: I think ti sucks, don't know about others. :)
<jsgotangco> i have some AT here installed
<hno73> so we don't drain our efforts
<dholbach> ogra: is the ltsp community aware of that?
<TheMuso> dholbach: KDE's accesibility is coming along, but is nowhere near what GNOME has.
<hno73> we don't have very many users now, but we need to plan for the future
<jsgotangco> kmouth is horribly broken it seems
<dholbach> TheMuso: oh i see, i didn't know
<jsgotangco> no not kmouth, i meant KSayIt
<kjcole> I'm talking with my wife, who is deaf, and asked her what possible leads on research and guinea pigs... She says "The World Bank".
<jsgotangco> haha
<zyga> re
<TheMuso> One bug that needs fixing in Ubuntu, is getting gnome-mag built with XDamage extensions for full-screen magnification.
<TheMuso> I started looking into it but didn't follow through.
<ogra> dholbach, i dont think so ... since *i* am the the ltsp community for ubuntu ... its a totally new implementation
<dholbach> TheMuso: will note that down
* jsgotangco will focus on KDE AT then
<zyga> about the idea: we could identify packages from main that are a11y-friendly and display an icon next to them, similar to the 'ubuntu' icon currnelty present
<kjcole> There's some sort of global accessibility group there.
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: As far as I can see, you won't have much to go on. GNOME will still be the environment for a11y, until QT4 and KDE4 come out.
<TheMuso> zyga: Not useful for those who can't see.
<ogra> dholbach, i.e. ltsp uses esd for sound and will have a new gstreamr ltspsink ... this must be taken into account ...
<dholbach> ogra: so we need that on the test plan as well
<TheMuso> Actually, there are also some audio requirements noted by the a11y free standard group.
<dholbach> ogra: once it's ready
<zyga> TheMuso: yes but that data could be used in gnome-app-install to say 'this program is not a11y friendy'
<Riddell> jsgotangco: cool
<TheMuso> FOr multimedia frameworks.
<TheMuso> If the link is requested, I will post it.
<Riddell> TheMuso: why?
<dholbach> oh Riddell is here too
<Riddell> dholbach: I'm always here :)
<dholbach> Riddell: do you know how active the kde-a11y folks are?
<Riddell> dholbach: pretty active
<dholbach> TheMuso: we will have a AccessbilityTeam/Links page too
<TheMuso> Riddell: This is only from what I have been able to gather.
<dholbach> i will create the wiki pages tonight
<TheMuso> I have not been able to test everything, and to be truthful, I don't know what works with kttsd for example.
<Riddell> yeah, I've not tested kttsd, have you jsgotangco?
<kjcole> Time for me to go pretend to work on the day before Thanksgiving.  (I'm sure someone will "unofficially" tell us we can leave early today.)
<jsgotangco> Riddell: it works pretty much
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: What have you found? How does one use it?
* jsgotangco has KTTSManager installed
<jsgotangco> well it pretty much works by itself
<hno73> Perhaps we should consider a testing Live DVD with both the Gnome and KDE stuff installed by default
<jsgotangco> it says stuff like i have x number of mails from kopete
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: What do you mean?
<TheMuso> What about menus?
<TheMuso> Like the applications menu?
<hno73> Different people will find diferent tools useful
<jsgotangco> i havent tried that yet
<dholbach> hmmmmm
* TheMuso must check his setup.
* jsgotangco tests now
<hno73> I've tried running kmag in gnome, which seems to work well, etc.
<TheMuso> Right.
<Riddell> the KDE accessibility guys have a really nice looking new magnifier using composite in the works
<jsgotangco> kmag is pretty good
<jsgotangco> but kde lacks an on screen keyboard
<Riddell> jsgotangco: that's the part that will stay missing until qt4/kde4 alas
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<hno73> KDE and Gnome also made a statement that they will actively collaborate on AT, and I think we should support that sentiment
* jsgotangco can't find the settings for talking menus via KTTS
<dholbach> can everybody interested in a11y tell me their mail address in a query, so i can get a mail out and we can follow up like that until we hav ethe mailing list?
<TheMuso> hno73: I agree.
<TheMuso> They are looking at using dbus.
<Riddell> jriddell@ubuntu.com
<hno73> query? henrik@ubuntu.com :)
<Riddell> oh, query, ah well
<ogra> ogra@ubuntu.com
<jsgotangco> jgotangco@ubuntu.com
<dholbach> when you think we should wrap up, could everybody state what they're going to do until the meeting in 2 weeks time?
* jsgotangco tests further kde stuff i guess
* hno73 will set up some use cases
<kjcole> kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu
* TheMuso will continue working on a Breezy live CD derivative, hopefully with spoken language selection.
<jsgotangco> hno73: the use cases can be useful for testing what we currently have and help us test it
* dholbach will look into new software, will set up the wiki pages ASAP, get the mailing list going
* kjcole will try to recruit some students here for testing, and will look into research on computer literacy among deaf
<hno73> TheMuso: would you consider basing it on dapper instead?
<hno73> so we can stay ahead of the ball a bit?
* ogra will test the apps with ltsp, once they are there
<TheMuso> hno73: Yeah I could. I will try to base it on flight.
<TheMuso> Trouble is, a lot has changed since then, and things could be broken.
<hno73> TheMuso: I'll encourage some dev people to help you
<hno73> if need be
<TheMuso> Thats why I am trying with breezy for the moment, to give me a stable environment in which to work,.
<hno73> TheMuso: tell me if you need access to a server to build on, etc.
<TheMuso> As some of the work involves creating debian-installer udeb packages.
<TheMuso> hno73: Ok. I am only doing i386 atm.
<TheMuso> And have access to PowerPC.
<dholbach> TheMuso: is this something, that cannot be in the proper d-i at the moment?
<dholbach> TheMuso: if you need an amd64 to work on, tell me
<TheMuso> dholbach: It involves making udebs of core alsa packages.
<hno73> TheMuso: yeah, but I mean one with a decent connection for moving stuff around
<TheMuso> hno73: That might be helpful.
<dholbach> TheMuso: did colin watson have reservations on this?
<TheMuso> I have emailed Colin a while back, but never got a responce
<dholbach> he must have been busy then... as a team we should ask again
<TheMuso> I wouldn't be surprised if my approach is hacky, but I am just trying to see if I can get it working. Software speech for installation has not been done yet.
<TheMuso> dholbach: That would be great!
<dholbach> TheMuso: he's not someone who doesnt respond to people
<TheMuso> I didn't think so.
<hno73> OK, I think we've gotten a fair bit done :)
<jsgotangco> are you implying something? :D
<dholbach> yeah
<hno73> huh ?
<dholbach> i'm quite happy, with what we discussed... for a first meeting this was really good
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<dholbach> next time, we'll be better organized :)
<jsgotangco> pretty good brain storm
<dholbach> ROCK :)
<kjcole> I'm just here for the karma points. ;-)
<dholbach> tssssss :)
<TheMuso> Maybe we should also think of an agenda for the next meeting, and put it on the page linked to in the topic.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> announce the formation on the fridge!
<jsgotangco> and make fridget accessible!
<jsgotangco> heh
<TheMuso> hahaha.
<hno73> The AT team forms (again)
* TheMuso must look at that site one day.
<dholbach> TheMuso, jsgotangco : yeah, this was a first meeting, with less people to be sure, we come to at least *SOME* conclusions :)
<kjcole> Agenda? We don't need no stinking agenda!  (But it's a good idea, Lord.)
<TheMuso> Like the discussion of moving some important packages from Universe to main, upgrading them, etc.
<dholbach> TheMuso: we should have a TODO page on the wiki for that
* hno73 is working on a general accessible moin theme, which I'll try to push onto the fridge as well in time
<TheMuso> dholbach: Yeah.
<jsgotangco> what else is in universe that needs to be fleshed out?
<TheMuso> BrlTTY.
<jsgotangco> (aside from some KDE stuff)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<dholbach> TheMuso: yeah, didnt manage to do that for breezy
<dholbach> TheMuso: because it needed something newer in main and it was past upstream version freeze, when i got that bug
<Riddell> jsgotangco: moving kdeaccessibility to main would be cool but it probably has a lot of dependencies
<TheMuso> It also needs an upgrade. I remember reading something about it possibly being done for Debian, but haven't checked that.
<jsgotangco> Riddell: it has tons, i can make an inclusion draft perhaps
* jsgotangco has to investigate
<hno73> This is why I think we need to focus on dapper
<hno73> to get the bug reports in on time
<dholbach> yeah
<jsgotangco> right
<dholbach> anything else, we need to discuss (apart next meeting's time and date)?
<TheMuso> hno73: Fair enough.
* TheMuso can do this time again if given some advanced notice.
<hno73> same time in 2 weeks would work for me
<jsgotangco> i think this is a good time
<TheMuso> I just don't like using dapper for my main systems.
<dholbach> we will spread the word next time beforhand
<dholbach> december, 7th, 14:30 utc?
<jsgotangco> nice
<TheMuso> Sounds alright.
<kjcole> A wee bit awkward for me timewise, but doable. (I go to the Edubuntu meeting at 7:00 AM my time.)
<dholbach> excellent... a notice one week before should be fine, so we can get an agenda together and the wiki up to scratch
<TheMuso> kjcole: Well this meeting for me is 1:30AM my time.
<dholbach> TheMuso: where do you live?
<TheMuso> dholbach: Australia.
<dholbach> oh i see :)
<jsgotangco> its only midnight here in manila
<TheMuso> But as I said, given advanced notice, I can do it.
<kjcole> TheMuso: I feel for you.  So far, I haven't had any meetings THAT awkward.
<jsgotangco> kjcole: try 4am meetings
<dholbach> if you have another idea of when to meet, just say so - we can rotate the times
<TheMuso> Well I can make just about any time. I can fit in with everybody else.
<kjcole> jsgotangco: I'm not that dedicated / masochistic.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> hno73: you got a minute or two via pm?
<hno73> jsgotangco: yep
<kjcole> jsgotangco: although, truth be told, two days ago I installed Edubuntu, and stayed up almost 24 hours tinkering with it and restoring stuff to it.  (It was a Fedora box.)
<dholbach> ok, then we close this meeting for now?
<TheMuso> Sounds fine by me.
<kjcole> Yup. Later all...
<dholbach> thank you very much, everybody who attended the meeting and gave so good input
<dholbach> we will form a rocking accessibility team
<TheMuso> hno73: Did you have something to talk to me about? I am going back through the logs to work out what it may have been.
<dholbach> and make dapper an excellent release
<TheMuso> SOrry, it was jsgotangco.
<jsgotangco> er?
<TheMuso> Never mind, I think ti was covered.
<TheMuso> hno73: We covered the derivative a little in the meeting, unless there is anything else you want to mention?
<dholbach> *wave*
* TheMuso will now go and get some sleep. :)
<hno73> TheMuso: cool, lets sum up on email
<TheMuso> Ok.
<TheMuso> bye all.
<jsgotangco> k good night as well
<\sh> what meeting was now?
<Riddell> \sh: accessibility
<Riddell> just happened
<\sh> oh...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 07 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-29
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 25 Nov 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council
<jbailey> JaneW: I swear I need an ical feed for these things. =)
<JaneW> jbailey: :)
* jbailey adds that to his list of things to do.
<sivang> jbailey: cool
<jbailey> Somewhere after "finish the Hurd"
<JaneW> jbailey: I see you have no specs, because you have gone all businesey on us...
<JaneW> jbailey: I hope you are in a suit
<jbailey> JaneW: My mom used to do that when she worked at home.  Put on makeup, heels, etc.
* Keybuk takes a typing break
<JaneW> jbailey: lol
* JaneW doesn't
<Treenaks> JaneW: so what you're saying is that you're ircing naked?
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> jbailey: 
<JaneW> Treenaks: no cos I am at the office today :P
<JaneW> Treenaks: tomorrow maybe ;)
<sivang> people, behave ! :)
<jbailey> sivang: We are.  The juicy stuff wouldn't happen on a logged channel ;)
<Treenaks> ;)
<sivang> jbailey: can I order my ticket then ? ;-)
<pitti> hi
<sivang> ok, 4 minutes to run to restrooms and come back. *snap*
<sivang> back
<Treenaks> that was 2 min
<sivang> right, well, I did it quick :)
<JaneW> hi all
<pitti> Hi JaneW, how was the volleyball?
<JaneW> our team won, they are playing in the finals now, without me... :/
<JaneW> firstly does anyone want to comment on the summary spreadsheet?
<pitti> congrats
<ogra> then they'll surely loose
<JaneW> will it end up being useful or just a waste of time...?
<sivang> JaneW: how is marilize doing? she seemed eager to play :-)
<pitti> JaneW: it was still a bit unordered
<pitti> JaneW: but veeery colorful :)
<fabbione> hi
<JaneW> pitti: ok I fixed that laready, will be better this week...
<pitti> nice, thanks
<JaneW> are the colours good or bad? I like colour coding stuff
<pitti> JaneW: oh, that's just fine
<sivang> JaneW: do you maintain an agenda for the status meetings?
<jbailey> JaneW: That's the one you sent to u-d-a?
<pitti> JaneW: eventually I would like to see this page autogenerated from lp
<JaneW> jbailey: yes
<JaneW> pitti: so would I!
<pitti> JaneW: it could take the status from the whiteboard of the specs
<Kamion> ok, mdz will not be able to make this meeting due to Thanksgiving, so he asked JaneW and me to run it
<JaneW> we are not sure if that will be possible, but if we get the stutus updates fed in we should be able to
<JaneW> I thought if I can get to a design that works we can show that to the LP team and ask for it from LP
<Kamion> we're missing daniels, jdub, krstic
<JaneW> sivang: yes the agenda is the same each week, we run through the group and get stutus updates in a set format, as per e-mail yesterday
<Kamion> it's late Australian time, and krstic has other commitments, so I doubt we'll get any more
<fabbione> Kamion: and BenC.. he is thanksgiving too
<JaneW> daniels won;t be here, he sent appologies and a breif update to me
<Kamion> fabbione: I'm just looking at /names at the moment
<JaneW> not sure if jdub is intended to attend these../
<JaneW> ?
<Kamion> JaneW: probably not, he isn't distro team
<JaneW> nod
<dholbach> i pinged him, just in case... but don't know if he's awake
<sivang> Kamion: you mean, he's no longer on distro-team ?
<Keybuk> sivang: jdub never has been
<sivang> Keybuk: ah :) ok
<Kamion> so, we'll run through people in alphabetical order by nick, per JaneW's request; please give a short summary for each spec you have assigned (you should have this pre-prepared)
<infinity> JaneW : I object to being at the top of the spreadsheet, otherwise it was fine. :)
<pitti> sivang: he's the Canonical motivation team :)
<Kamion> BenC is on vacation
<sivang> pitti: hehe, cool
<Kamion> daniels sent apologies
<Kamion> dholbach: ?
<infinity> Kamion : alphabetical by nick, or by LP username (since that's how the spreadsheet is ordered)?
<JaneW> infinity you aren't anymore ;P
<dholbach> power-management-configuration: mjg59 came up with a new plan (dbus authentication mechanism for restricting the use of power management functionalities); I'll nail down the missing bits for writing the spec together with him (along with time estimates); together with hughsie, I'll discuss the UI ideas we had.
<dholbach> inclusion-of-docs: in my SleeplessNightBOF last night, I packaged new ubuntu-docs from docteam's SVN (didn't upload yet), fixed some bugs in it (the doc team moved some directories around and didn't register there new docs in Rosetta), however, there are files missing still. i will have a session with mdke tonight, to get things right and regular updates going. (although translations will have to wait). 
<JaneW> BenC is forst now
<dholbach> best-practices-bugs: we made some additions to the HelpingWithBugs pages and we're running the HUG DAY momentarily, which is just great.
<JaneW> first even
<Kamion> infinity: let's do it by nick this time or I'll get lost.
<dholbach> work: this week (today and tomorrow), c++ allocator change, BUG DAY, writing down a11y meeting notes, ubuntu-docs updating
<dholbach> work: next week: gnome-power spec'ing, more c++ allocator change, a11y spec'ing with hno73, getting the wiki up to scratch, bug triage (of course), motu mentoring
<JaneW> infinity: from this week it is ordered by nick
<Diziet> Firefox: finished merging, not everything works right yet.  I will pick this up again in another few days after I've got some other stuff out of the way.
<Diziet> AutomatedTesting: discussions in Debian going reasonably well; will carry on probably for another week.
<Diziet> Launchpad SSLCertificateAuthentication: some progress made yesterday; this will fail or succeed by tomorrow
<Diziet> DeveloperDocumentation: I will pick this up next week I think
<Diziet> Email and bug backlog: horrendous
<Diziet> Other goals: not started
<Kamion> dholbach: thanks
<Diziet> Sorry, was I premature ?
<Kamion> no, that's ok
<Kamion> Diziet: is firefox working well enough now that it can be left alone for a few days, or do other people need to prod it?
<JaneW> dholbach: were you done?
<dholbach> JaneW: yes, i was
<Diziet> Yes.  You can use it to browse web pages and I think you can even build against it.  If not then I'll fix it.
<pitti> ffox works well enough for me at  least
<Kamion> great, thanks
<Kamion> doko: ?
<pitti> has still some itches, but not too bad
<doko> Kamion: please later, have still to summarize
* JaneW offer pitti a tube of ointment
<seb128> firefox works fine, not the same for stuff using it :)
<Kamion> doko: ok, we'll do you last
<Kamion> fabbione: ?
<fabbione> ok i am next....
<fabbione> * server-candy: progressing: MD5 checker core is ready (both server and client side). Client frontends need to be done. other stuff is waiting to complete the MD5 task. Community is growing slowly because we are still missing the mailing list and some kind of official announcement that i would like to do when the infrastructure is ready.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: some pkgs have been already updated. others are being prepared.
<fabbione> * installer-volume-management: partman-auto is ready and uploaded, merging partman-auto-lvm as we speak.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: blocked.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: blocked.
<fabbione> * misc: monday have been out handling CD around (very positive). Dec 15th i will be on the other side of Denmark to give a talk in a company. working on merges and a bit of bug triaging.
<fabbione> * next week: complete installer-volume-management and do server-candy work, together with merges.
<pitti> blocked by?
<mvo> apparently the pyhton binding of ff are borken right now :/
<fabbione> pitti: blocks are tracked in LP
<Kamion> yes, please list what you're blocked by so we have a record of who should be nagged
<fabbione> Kamion: ok will do for the next time, but mainly is the new udev stuff
<Keybuk> that only blocks the boot-time side of it
<Keybuk> it doesn't block the modifications to d-i
* JaneW can give daniel's update...
<fabbione> Keybuk: and testing
<Kamion> Keybuk: it's hard to test d-i changes correctly when the installed system doesn't work right; I concur with that being a blocker
<fabbione> i don't like blind modifications if i can avoid them is better
<Kamion> JaneW: go ahead
<JaneW> ok this from daniels: done: finished RC2.
<JaneW> blocked: nothing anymore
<JaneW> tomorrow: fixing driver FTBFSes
<JaneW> next week: on leave
<JaneW> that's it
<Keybuk> terse
<infinity> JaneW : Note that the driver FTBFSs have become a large enough issue that I'm fixing them tonight.
<infinity> (They're listed in my update...)
<JaneW> infinity: ok
<Kamion> we need to get something out of daniels on dbus-restarts at some point
<Kamion> is anyone else involved with that?
<pitti> uh, that's not really something for us, I guess
<pitti> that spec is more like a proposal for upstream rather than a dapper spec
<Kamion> I see; let's move on
<Kamion> infinity: ?
<pitti> upstream is completely against doing it
<seb128> Kamion: as pitti said, we don't have a lot to do for that
<Diziet> I thought we needed it for various stuff ?  And upstream are on crack.
<JaneW> one sec
<pitti> Diziet: right, but we can't patch against the world
<JaneW> can the ppl who were listed as needing further discussions with mdz please indicate if those have actually happened yet AND
<infinity> reducing-duplication: ongoing effort, as always, this last week saw good progress on kicking out multiple versions of libdb
<infinity> initramfs-*: still waiting on keybuk to release his lock on initramfs for hardware activation
<infinity> usplash-*: tested vga16fb changes to use a lower resolution, muddled with assembly in syslinux to make the same change for CD booting, need more testing
<infinity> splash-down: Have a reasonable working implementation, will need to ping maintainers of display managers to hook things in correctly and coordinate uploads
<infinity> general: helped with kernel security updates last week (l-r-m and linux-meta), need to get a new l-r-m and linux-meta in this week for the new kernel, spent plenty of time babysitting various components to make modular X buildable, currently polishing off most of that tonight, buildd tasks have been reasonably onerous this last week.
<JaneW> let us know if you have a new need to set up time to talk to him
<doko> infinity: any estimate for subversion?
<ogra> infinity, ping me as well for ltsp display manager  please
<infinity> doko : Mail me for SVN, if I have the reminder in my INBOX, I'll do it first thing tomorrow.
<Kamion> JaneW: we're now part-way through people, so perhaps we can go back at the end and look through that
* pitti would like to book infinity for php
<JaneW> Kamion: sure, but if the rest will in the mean time..?
<Kamion> ok
<Kamion> jdub's away, so I'm next
<Keybuk> didn't we just miss doko?
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Making good progress with partman.deb; I expect to upload this early next week. UI work not started.
<jbailey> Or I
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: First cut at parted parseable output patch done and sent upstream; I think it'll probably get merged, but if not I have a fallback plan. No other progress. Not blocked.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-base-system: Tollef's working on factoring out the keymapper widget; otherwise no progress.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-*, ue-*: No other progress. Semi-blocked on an svn2bzr bug that prevents me from importing the Guadalinex repository (sent to niemeyer).
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: CD timeout restored. Upgraded to syslinux 3.11. Sent call for gfxboot testing to ubuntu-users.
<Kamion> cd-build-process: Single-architecture rebuilds implemented.
<Kamion> misc: Implemented installer rescue mode infrastructure to allow implementation of MD5 checker client side for server-candy. Did the big apt-setup merge, though not tested yet.
<Kamion> jbailey: oh, sorry, I missed you
<jbailey> Kamion: I'll go after, no big deal.
<Mithrandir> Kamion: the keymapper widget is actually done now, but not uploaded.
<pitti> Keybuk: doko wanted to be last
<Kamion> of my meetings with mdz, I still need to have a chat about merge progress, CD blockers has become obsolete, Kubuntu CD builds has been done by deciding to bring Riddell into the cdimage group, and we haven't had the syncs discussion yet
<Kamion> (the last needs elmo too)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: in your bzr repository? if so, I'll have a look
<Mithrandir> Kamion: no, not pushed.  I haven't that set up, really.  Will fix that
<Kamion> ok, thanks
<Kamion> jbailey: go ahead, then
<jbailey> Specs: none, Nyaah
<jbailey> * glibc: Patch in hand for sparc, hppa still needs love.
<jbailey> After that: libc6-i386 for amd64, update to 2.3.6 and locale munging.  Those are just blocked on it working everywhere again.
<jbailey> * linux-kernel-headers: Update to 2.6.15 coming RSN (partially started)
<jbailey> * klibc/initramfs-tools: I'm happy with the hand off, and don't consider myself responsible for them anymore.
<jbailey> I looked through and noticed yesterday that I still have grub asssigned to me for merging, I'll try to grab that tomorrow.
<Kamion> jbailey: are we likely to merge glibc/l-k-h with Debian, or is that stalled for dapper?
<JaneW> keybuk:?
<jbailey> Kamion: Glibc will get merged as part of 2.3.6.  l-k-h isn't common with Debian.  I'm working on that on the Debian side.
<Kamion> all right
<Keybuk> JaneW: I was gonna wait until the questions stopped :)
<Keybuk> udev-roadmap: mostly done.  rcS script needs polish and the whole thing needs a bit more testing.  grepmap is to be kept, and updated for input subsystem and libsane.  still got to sort out udeb.  waiting on 2.6.15-4
<Keybuk> hardware-activation: no network or sound-card rules yet.  Kamion found a sweet way to replace cardmgr.
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: bootchart updated to 0.9.  readahead still todo.  mostly waiting on udev-roadmap to see what different that makes.
<Keybuk> network-manager: largely no progress, discovered it doesn't seem to bring up wifi interfaces until a user logs in.  blocked on glibc dns patch.  might not be doable anyway.
<Keybuk> misc: still to merge sysvinit, otherwise done 25.  found bug with dpkg's new conffile handing that I'll fix.  module-init-tools needs update to latest upstream and a patch that could break depmod (inputmap) on < 2.6.15
<Keybuk> plans: finish up udev, have 1,000 bugs filed against me for everything I break, fix those, move on to streamlined-boot and network-manager
<Kamion> if we could get the new udev world order in tomorrow so that we can have time to settle everything before Flight CD 2 becomes urgent, that would be much appreciated
<infinity> Agreed.
<Kamion> however I don't know how practical that is while BenC's on vacation
<jbailey> Kamion: Timing for flight 2?
<Riddell> is there a target date or flight 2?
<Keybuk> yeah, with a good headwind and fair weather, I don't see why it couldn't go in today or tomorrow, except for the kernel block
<Kamion> ideally, Flight CD releases are two weeks apart
<Kamion> in some cases that may need to slip
<Kamion> s/some/many/ quite probably :-/
<Keybuk> it'll break some stuff, all known, but the major interp-dep components are almost ready
<Kamion> but theoretically, doing Flight 2 next Thursday/Friday would be perfect
<infinity> Keybuk : Given lrm work, your work, and BenC's new kernel upload required, I'd call Monday a good target for having all the new kernel/udev stuff settle.
<Keybuk> agreed, the kernel is only a relatively soft blocker
<Keybuk> I can upload udev/initramfs/etc. without it ... it'll just break a few people
<Kamion> if that can be decoupled, all the better
<Kamion> ok, krstic and mdz absent
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ?
<Mithrandir> livecd-performance: groundwork done, I can now get useful data out of the system.  Need to decide on further action to actually improve boot times.  Also, will get it into the default live cd  (togglable with a boot switch or similar) and call for testing.
<Keybuk> and I can alleviate that with a u-d-a announce saying what's expected to break
<Mithrandir> embedded-ubuntu: I discovered that I got this spec last night, hence no status update on it.
<Mithrandir> network-authentication: Lots of interest around the spec, no work done on it so far.
<Mithrandir> other: no progress on specs.  I've spent a fair amount of time helping Colin with cdebconf custom widgets, those still need to be uploaded.
<Mithrandir> Next week: review embedded-ubuntu, Try to get media-integrity-check unblocked (so help Colin with the new syslinux, if he needs help) and implemented.  Go through the network-authentication spec and see what steps are needed to get it working, then start implementation.  Random other chaff which shows up.
<Mithrandir> Blocked on: Colin for newer syslinux, volunteering to help.
<Mithrandir> Rant: It's very annoying when priorites are shifted around without any kind of notification.  The live-cd-performance spec was high priority, hence I spent time on it, now it's suddenly medium priority without anybody having told me.  I was also made approved for embedded-ubuntu, without any notification.
<Mithrandir> Until we use LP all the time and therefore see those kinds of things, notifications are needed.  They probably still will be needed then.
* mvo agrees with Mithrandir rant
<Kamion> I agree, we're well out of the time at UBZ when we were looking at our specs pages every day
<JaneW> Mithrandir: I will try to keep the spreadhseet statuses up to date
<JaneW> the colours will help to identify changes
<Mithrandir> JaneW: spreadsheet statuses don't show up in my inbox. :-)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: I'll chat to you about syslinux later; we have the simple menu in syslinux 3 now, but gfxboot is still to come
<Kamion> JaneW: spreadsheets are far too hard to diff for changes
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, cool.  I just need the menu stuff in order to be unblocked.
<sivang> is it only me that has openoffice borked on his dapper? :)
<pitti> JaneW: I'd rather get an email if something on my assigned/subscribed specs changes...
<pitti> JaneW: just like wiki change emails
<seb128> sivang: not the place
<ogra> pitti++
<Kamion> e-mail or IRC notifications about something being assigned to you would be appropriate
<Mithrandir> Kamion: but I'll be happy to help out with other stuff that blocks you too.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: thanks
<sivang> seb128: sure, sorry
<seb128> pitti: yeah, notification would be nice :)
<JaneW> if I change statuses or assignees I will send out notificatio e-mails to parties concerened...
<seb128> JaneW: thanks
<Kamion> JaneW: thanks, that will be very helpful :-)
<Kamion> mvo: you're up
<Mithrandir> JaneW++
<ogra> JaneW, that should really be a launchpad addon ...
<mvo> Did: 
<mvo> * automatic removal of dependencies spec bounty prepared (got deferred in the end)  [Automatic removal of unused dependencies] 
<ogra> so you dont have extra work through it 
<mvo> * pyhton-apt improvments (needed for unattended pkg upgrades, g-a-i, cmd-not-found magic)
<mvo> * unattended upgrades script ready (in python-apt, need to be integrated into the APT::Periodic system  [Unattended package upgrades] 
<mvo> * gdebi (direct deb install tool) almost ready for upload into archive (needs new python-apt first) [Support for packages by
<mvo>   third parties in external repos] 
<mvo> * cmd-not-found magic work with zyga (prototype in   pyhton ready, misses still some stuff) ["Sugest packages to install to proivde missing programs"] 
<mvo> * tried to make apt more smart about failed network    sources [Default apt sources.list configuration] -> might be used for [Improved handling of APT   cdrom: sources as well] 
<mvo> * other goals: not started
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> * upload new apt/python-apt/gdebi + all depenencies (abi break)
<mvo> * integrate unattended upgrades script into the APT::Periodic system
<mvo> * 3rd party packages channel work
<mvo> * use hide-admin-tools for update-notifier
<seb128> mvo: hide admin tools for update notifier? what is that?
<Kamion> mvo: let me know if/whenever you need installer-context testing of your apt changes
<pitti> I'll come to that later, see my u-d mail
<mvo> seb128: don't start update-notifier if the user can't run synaptic/apt/update-manager
<seb128> oh, k
<ogra> me ? 
<Kamion> ogra: yes
<mvo> Kamion: I'm preparing a mail to deity@l.d.o first explaining my idea and the patch. it's unfortunately not a trivial change :/
<ogra> * thin-client-sound: updated the spec (pending approval), started adopting the proof of concept in real code in my local bzr branch, discussed changes to gstreamer with pitti, updated the spec accordingly
<ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: started some initial tests, ltspfs/ltspfsd cvs version uploaded and build, binary is in the archive
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: updated the spec (pending approval), did some further testing
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: updated the spec (pending approval)
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: started working on the package
<mvo> Kamion: but thanks :)
<ogra> * last weeks goals: 3 of 4 specs texts finished (pending approval), ltsp bzr archive is set up, renamed to ltsp/dapper on mdz's request, assembled a etherboot based client (not tested yet) to examine the etherboot problems often reported on #edubuntu, xscreensaver not completely finished yet (package ready but did not take the time to fully test it yet), edubuntu CD daily builds started, liveCD fs requested from lamont, should be ready the next da
<ogra> ys
<ogra> * next week plans: specs specs specs ... finishing the thin-client-local device spec and getting the rest approved, make the mdz requested changes to ldm in my bzr branch, implement the thin-client sound spec in my bzr branch, etherboot testing/fixing with the newly assembled etherboot client and writing a howto for edubuntu users, test the first liveCD ,finish up with xscreensaver (demote most of it (except shipped hacks) to universe), check chan
<ogra> ges to gnome-screensaver lock dialog with upstream to make it look like the breezy one, get gnome-screensaver to main, fix merge bugs, preparing edubuntu for flight 2
* sivang is assigned to home-user-backup, can I be excused as this spec seems not to be targetted for dapper?
<sivang> (At least ATM)
<Kamion> ogra: are we in a position where you can get enough testing together at short notice to do an Edubuntu Flight CD?
<Kamion> I won't be able to help this time :)
<ogra> Kamion, i can do most testing here, but i'll ping users on #edubuntu and the ML
<Diziet> ogra: thinclient-local-devices> Does that mean you're implementing already ?  Or is this part of the drafting ?
<ogra> the only missing bit is ppc install over here 
<Kamion> bearing in mind that the window of opportunity is generally quite small at this stage of the release cycle
<ogra> Diziet, its still drafting ...
<Diziet> Right.
<Kamion> powerpc's still broken anyway unless the LTSP bug that broke the Edubuntu powerpc breezy release has been fixed
<ogra> Diziet, and it will depend on the dbus changes
<Diziet> dbus> Quite so.
<ogra> Kamion, yes, but live should be fine 
<Kamion> ogra: so ltspfs/ltspfsd are just proof-of-concepts?
<ogra> Kamion, nope, we planned to use them, but upstream will have to do changes
<ogra> according to my tests
<Kamion> ok, thanks
<ogra> i'm in contact with scott balneaves who is upstream
<Kamion> JaneW: what's the word on home-user-backup, for sivang?
<Mithrandir> ogra: they seemed to be unfinished code, according to Scott?
<JaneW> sivang is here
<ogra> Mithrandir, he promised to have all changes in before UVF
<Mithrandir> ogra: sounds good
<Diziet> Yes, but is home-user-backup going to be in dapper ?  (Please?)
<Kamion> JaneW: 14:29  * sivang is assigned to home-user-backup, can I be excused as this spec seems not to be targetted for dapper?
<Kamion> sivang: hmm, it seems to be targeted to dapper in launchpad at the moment; please stick around
<JaneW> Kamion: it's sivang's goal, and we are tracking it as medium
<JaneW> sivang: comments?
<Diziet> I think it might have been me that changed the Target to Release because it looked like it had just been forgotten.  Was that wrong of me ?
<ogra> i think thats a mdz job normally
<Diziet> Oh.
<JaneW> Kamion: it is, has he looked at the table recently?
<Kamion> JaneW: ok, let's talk about it when we get round to sivang in the list
<Kamion> pitti: ?
<pitti> first, non-blocked specs:
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: DONE: cups 1.2beta in dapper (needed twice the expected time, though); PLAN: add dbus patch, change g-v-m to respond to hotplug events; ETA: 1 day
<JaneW> it took us a week or 2 after UBZ to work through the list, still not 100%
<pitti> language-pack-vs-support: No coding action from my side; filed bug against installer for required string change, coordinate with mvo about langselector changes
<pitti> general stuff next week: continue the ReducingDuplication campaign, finish merges, the usual chores (main inclusion reviews, pending security updates, bug triage); I will merge libgphoto2 and do the udev adaptions, but I need to work with somebody who has a scanner to be able to do libsane for new udev.
<pitti> specs with blocks:
<pitti> gstreamer-audio-backend: ALSA 1.10 is in dapper, still BLOCK on gstreamer 0.10 for creating the alsadmixsink
<pitti> hide-admin-tools-to-users: no actions since last week; BLOCK: sudo logging decision, see u-d mail
<pitti> automated-problem-reports: BLOCK: approval from Keybuk, would appreciate opinions from other people, too (elmo, Kamion, mdz) since this is very intrusive
<pitti> inactive stuff:
<Kamion> pitti: eta on gstreamer 0.10?
<pitti> firewall: carstenh proposed bounty; no coding from my side, just review; no plans
<pitti> rosetta-firefox-support, langpacks-desktopfiles, pmount-uber-alles: no change since last week, no time
<pitti> mdz discussions: had none, would like to have one about sudo stuff (prefered: TB meeting) and one about automated-problem-reports
<pitti> Kamion: December, I think
<HiddenWolf> Kamion, 11 days according to #gstreamer
<pitti> does anybody have an usb scanner/
<pitti> ?
<Kamion> pitti: if you've got a decision to present, TB might be a good place to run through automated-problem-reports too
<pitti> Kamion: right, that's whatI wrote
<mvo> pitti: I can get my hands on a usb-scanner
<seb128> pitti: I've a snapscan 1212
<pitti> ok, I'll get to you for testing then, thanks
<seb128> np
<ogra> i have a canon lide20 here
<ogra> (or 30 ... not sure)
* Seveas has a USB scanner too
<jbailey> pitti: I have an epson 1240u
<pitti> wow, overwhelming
<Mithrandir> I have a canon lide something which needs the genesys driver from the experimental sane CVS.
<Seveas> we have a winner :)
<pitti> right now I rated automated-problem-reports as 'might not get implemented' since it's such a big one
<pitti> and I need the spec settled very soon
<Kamion> ok, thanks pitti
<Kamion> Riddell: ?
<Riddell> kubuntu-roadmap-dapper: packaging KDE 3.5, some modules blocked on subversion upload
<Riddell> kubuntu-documentation: settings up documentation for dapper to work properly with KDE
<Riddell> next week: finishing KDE 3.5, tidy up KDE transition and merge, simplify-kde and hopefully start kubuntu-system-tools, sort out bounty for kubuntu-package-manager
<Kamion> Riddell: if you're not making any more changes to kubuntu-express, punt it up to pending-approval and I'll take a look at it
<Riddell> Kamion: ok
<Kamion> Riddell: should kubuntu-documentation be assigned to you? I see it's currently assignee-less
<Kamion> as are a bunch of Kubuntu specs
<Riddell> Kamion: I'm not sure, I'm doing the technical parts of it, the community are doing the actual writing parts
<zyga> pitti: I can keep helping with desktop files, just give me directions
<pitti> zyga: that'll be great
<Kamion> hmm, right; we need somebody to take responsibility for driving it and making sure it gets finished to our satisfaction
<dholbach> Riddell: maybe we can look into the docs stuff together - buildsystem-wise
<Riddell> Kamion: jjesse and me take that responsibility
<Riddell> dholbach: yes, see the mailing list yesterday for discussions on it
<Kamion> JaneW: can you record that in Launchpad somehow?
<dholbach> Riddell: which one?
<Riddell> dholbach: meinproc discussion
<JaneW> Kamion: what?
<dholbach> Riddell: does that still refer to docs? if so, i'll do that
<Kamion> JaneW: 14:43 < Riddell> Kamion: jjesse and me take that responsibility
<Riddell> dholbach: it does
<dholbach> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> I'm happy to be assigned to kubuntu-documentation
<JaneW> Kamion: ok, sure
<Kamion> seb128: ok, your turn
<seb128> menus-revisited: almost all the changes have been uploaded (openoffice/gnome-bluetooth/avahi still to change), a bit of coordination to do with upstream to push some of the changes, will probably be moved to done next week
<seb128> rhythmbox-ipod: packaged libgpod which is used by rhythmbox CVS, tried rhythmbox CVS too (0.9.2 tarball will be rolled pretty soon). There is still rhythmbox code to do, but I'm waiting to get my ipod for this (probably next week)
<seb128> faster-gnome-startup: half of already done upstream/packaged. I've planned to work on the gconf transition (which is a part of it) today/tomorrow.
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: not started yet, I'll work on that next week
<seb128> video-playback: waiting for gstreamer0.10 which is due first week of december
<seb128> next-week: continue to catch up with the huge pile of bugs, fix GNOME components for the firefox ABI changes, starting work on dapper-desktop-plan
<Kamion> heh, "I need this iPod for work, honest"
<Kamion> go seb :-)
* dholbach hugs seb128 :)
<seb128> ah ah
<seb128> would be nice :)
<Kamion> sivang: ok, anything on home-user-backup? for the moment it's targetted to dapper; we'll need to talk to mdz and find out if it deliberately wasn't that way earlier
<Kamion> (and if so why)
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> can I have an iPod too?
<pitti> I need it for g-v-m testing ;)
<seb128> rohh
<ogra> isnt the biggest part of home-user-backup already covered by the SoC backuptool ?
<Keybuk> I need one of those new nanos, they hit udev corner cases <g>
<Diziet> sbackup you mean ?  Have you tried it ?
<Diziet> I have and, erm.
<ogra> nope
<infinity> It needs much love.
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> didnt know that
<infinity> It did what is was meant to, but it's hardly up to our standards for ubuntu-desktop yet.
* JaneW has to go for a group photo (sorry) will be afk for 2 mins...
<ogra> so you mean it needs HIG love ? 
<Diziet> No, it needs love.  Some serious SM, I think.
<ogra> or is the code itself awful
<infinity> Backend polish too.  It just needs months of testing and refinement, or someone to work on it hardcore for a week or two.
<infinity> Or both.
<Diziet> I would describe it as a proof of concept.  Although I'm not sure of what concept.
<ogra> heh
<infinity> Anyhow, we veer offtopic.
<Kamion> sivang seems to be away from the keyboard for a bit; if he comes back, we can get an update later
<fabbione> ok
<Kamion> doko: you're up
* fabbione hands the microphone to doko
<doko> toolchain: gcc/gcj packages split, libstdc++ allocator change in the works (pestering several people with NEW processing, promotions and package uploads), ia32-libs removal stalled (blocked by glibc biarch on amd64)
<doko> java-updates: charles started, not yet started myself.
<doko> others: no progress
<doko> This week: gcc/gcj packages split, gcj-4.1 updates, syncs, merges libstdc++ allocator change, "java to native code infrastructure for libjava packages" is late.
<doko> Next week:  - last libstdc++ allocator changes, making OOo buildable again, "java to native code infrastructure for libjava packages", start python merges/syncs, packaging update
<Riddell> doko: is gcj-4.0 going to be installable soon?
<doko> Riddell: yes, -4ubuntu10 is uploaded
<seb128> doko: oo.o2 doesn't build atm?
<Kamion> Riddell: according to dapper_probs.html it is already
<Riddell> excellent
<infinity> dapper_probs lies, then.
<infinity> The unbroken version is still building.
<Diziet> Can I suggest that in general the community participants should get to go first in this meeting ?  That will avoid us making them wait around quite so much.
<doko> seb128, pending libstdc++ allocator changes ...
<Kamion> Diziet: that's a good point; you're right
<seb128> doko: I have some MenusRevisited changes to do, just to know if that's worth I try doing the change or if it'll not build anyway
<doko> seb128, b-d's are not installable
<seb128> k
<seb128> thanks
<JaneW> back
<fabbione> if there is nothing more i am sort of in a hurry to go away
<Kamion> infinity: hard to tell since ubuntu-minimal isn't installable, so I guess it's fairly hosed
<doko> pitti: what about dropping mozilla-dev, are libnss-dev and libnspr-dev built from firefox, or separate sources?
<Kamion> ok, Keybuk wanted to have a quick merge progress update
<Keybuk> yes
<pitti> doko: oh, good point
<Kamion> we have four minutes :)
<infinity> Kamion : I'm your "make stuff installible again" slave, first thing Monday.  Or maybe tomorrow, if I get other stuff out of the way.
<Kamion> I make it 127 open merge bugs currently
<Keybuk> there are 120 merges outstanding, of which 10% date before dapper opened
<pitti> doko: #u-d, let's discuss that later
<Keybuk> 127?  I have 122
<doko> pitti: ok
<seb128> pitti, doko: xulrunner?
<Keybuk> this is only a slight decrease on this time last week
<Keybuk> ergo. PEOPLE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH MERGES
<pitti> all merge bugs are assigned now
<doko> Keybuk: I DONT KNOW THAT THERE ARE OPEN BUGS, you can't see them, if you are not the assigne
<Keybuk> doko: yes you can.
<Kamion> alright, please everyone push merges a step or two up your to-do list
<Keybuk> I've posted a URL which lists them a few times
<ogra> doko, YOU CAN WITH mdz's URL HE SEND 
<Kamion> doko: I have a "merge bugs" saved query in bugzilla, so it's fairly straightforward to see
<ogra> s/send/sent/
<Keybuk> basically search for all bugs which have an alias beginning "merge-*"
<pitti> doko: search for 'merging' in bugzilla, that's easiest and effective
<Kamion> doko: anyway, I make it 16 or so assigned to you :)
<Kamion> (I have plenty myself)
<Keybuk> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Ubuntu&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chf
<Keybuk> ieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&query_based_on=Pending+Merges&field0-0-0=alias&type0-0-0=regexp&value0-0-0=%5Emerge-
<pitti> Keybuk: is MOM still running? some packages were already merged twice
<pitti> arghl
<Keybuk> trim and save that :)
<HiddenWolf> Keybuk, tinyurl!
<Kamion> if people want to take merges, they should feel free to ask the assignee, in general; sometimes the assignee will be happy to give stuff away
<Kamion> I recommend marking the bug ASSIGNED if you're actually in progress on the merge, so that people can tell
<Keybuk> yeah, I've actually done that a few times so far -- and stolen merges off people because they were in a package I wanted to touch, or just because I looked through the patches and decided I knew how to do it
<Kamion> anyway, we're out of time; any quick final business?
<Keybuk> oh yes
<Keybuk> mom is not running
<Mithrandir> why not?
<Keybuk> she'll start again once the current merge dearth is done, if there's time before UVF
<pitti> makes sense IMHO
<Keybuk> otherwise it's a "SHIT KEEPS FALLING!" problem
<pitti> otherwise it's hard to tell which packages were merged three times, and which never
<Keybuk> http://www.lag.net/random/leisure-c.jpg
<Kamion> let's try to get that down below 20 or so for next week, then (unless MOM is restarted)
<Kamion> (making some allowance for the brutally hard ones here)
<Keybuk> right, everyone only needs to do about 10-15 each
<JaneW> Thanks everyone that ran pretty well, I'll try to get the sheet updated and published during tomorrow
<Kamion> if you have no merge bugs assigned, look for ones you want to steal
<pitti> Kamion: some are blocked by stuff (e. g. thunderbird locale packages for tbird 1.5, etc.)
<Kamion> pitti: hence allowance
<JaneW> in absence of most of the meeting updates, I will keep last week's ones on the list
<pitti> thanks everyone
<Kamion> ok, thank you all; *ding* meeting closed
<dholbach> yeah, thank you
* dholbach will take a walk now
<Kamion> JaneW: thanks for recording
<ogra> thanks Kamion/JaneW  for playing mdz 
<pitti> JaneW: do you need the IRC log?
<JaneW> pitti: I have already cut and paste the bits I need without discussions, mdz might want the whole thing...
<seb128> don't forget to note I need an ipod :p
* seb128 runs
<Mithrandir> I want a pony!
* ogra too for thin-client-local-device testing :)
<HiddenWolf> seb128, when might we see rhythmbox 0.9.2?
<ogra> and a pony
<Mithrandir> ogra: a thin pony?
<HiddenWolf> pony-client. :)
<HiddenWolf> ogra@pony
<seb128> HiddenWolf: when it's ready
<seb128> HiddenWolf: ask upstream?
<HiddenWolf> seb128, I will. :)
<HiddenWolf> seb128, current one is sucky.
<ogra> Mithrandir, opposed to a fat pony ? yeah...
<seb128> HiddenWolf: thanks, such opinion on free software are still appreciate :p
<HiddenWolf> seb128, I love it, but it's sucky still. :)
<seb128> I disagree
<seb128> but that's not the chan to speak about that anyway
<HiddenWolf> true
<sivang> rehi all,. Sorry :-( had 3 meetings in a row at work
<sivang> Kamion: sorry for before, I had 3 in-a-row meetings I had to attend :-(
<sivang> Kamion: in any case, I was referring to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperGoals, you can see there that my goal is "under consideration" , from my talks with mdz I realized he's still hadn't gotten to it, so assumed it has good chances to get deferred
<sivang> Kamion: plus, I really had to run away for those work meetings.
<Kamion> no problem, thanks. Any status on home-user-backup you'd like to report?
<sivang> Kamion: Can I email you about this? I have to run again and will not be able to be online for like 2 hours
<Kamion> sivang: e-mail JaneW
<nalioth> tritium: good plan, except somebody is missing
<tritium> Hi thoreauputic 
<thoreauputic> hi :)
<thoreauputic> someone invited sabdfl ?
<tritium> Yes
<thoreauputic> k
<tritium> Give him a minute to reply.  Perhaps he's busy
<thoreauputic> I expect so :)
<nalioth> i'm sure he has more on his plate than turkey (or whatever is on the menu)
<sabdfl> hey all
<nalioth> howdy sabdfl 
<tritium> Hi sabdfl 
<thoreauputic> hi sabdfl 
<nalioth> wow
<nalioth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
<thoreauputic> oh that was a short visit
<nalioth> you can say that again
* tritium would guess he'll be back shortly
<tritium> nalioth, whatever happened ot the NuN?
<nalioth> tritium: it gets new user requests to join about once a week
<tritium> Well, nevertheless, it can't hurt to start thinking about his recommendation to implement a few simple rules.
<nalioth> i guess we are all doing our 10hours minimum service to new users
<tritium> nalioth, good deal
<nalioth> i keep any eye on the users
<thoreauputic> i notice there's a link to the CoC on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InternetRelayChat  - but that isn't really enough: a bit on general netiquette would be appropriate
<thoreauputic> at the moment it's scattered across a few ubotu factoids :)
<tritium> I guess so.  I'd have liked to get sabdfl's opinion
<nalioth> so let's make a !rules since that's what most folks try to hit
<thoreauputic> tritium: yes, maybe he lost his connection - or expected a rapid beginning ;-)
<nalioth> the NUN guidelines are a good place to start
<tritium> agreed
<thoreauputic> The guidelines are fine as they satnd, but maybe we could add a few pointers about things like not /msg ing people without asking , and keeping questions in channel etc 9also a pointer to #ubuntu-offtopic - a lot of people don't know about it
<nalioth> sounds good
<thoreauputic> hmm just some ideas to kick around
<nalioth> and it can be as big as needed 
<thoreauputic> a wiki page I guess 
<tritium> Sounds good
* nalioth drops a 30lb channel guideline on thoreauputic 
<thoreauputic> heh
<thoreauputic> what's that in kilos? *grin*
<nalioth> factoid too, many users dont visit the wiki
<thoreauputic> nalioth: right - a brief factoid or perhaps one that's a bit longer for !tell user about rules
* nalioth drops another 13.73kg factoid on thoreauputic for good measure
* thoreauputic is starting to flag under the weight
<thoreauputic> what about something like " there are some simple IRC traditions: 1) Don't pm/ msg people without asking 2) Ask questions in channel so everyone can help and learn 3)Be polite - remember others may be from different cultures and not understand your humour 
<thoreauputic> hmm geeting long already..
<nalioth> it's gonna end up a !+ factoid, no matter how we word it, i'm afraid
<thoreauputic> yes
<thoreauputic> Shall I create a page on the wiki called "IRCRules" or similar, and we can add and edit it, then discuss the results?
<nalioth> irc guidelines
<nalioth> would be a more friendly title, i think
<tritium> guidelines sounds better to me too
<thoreauputic> yes, agreed
<thoreauputic> yes rules sounds rather schoolmasterly ;)
<thoreauputic> OK an empty placeholder is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCGuidelines
<thoreauputic> it contains nothing yet :)
<thoreauputic> except a description of intent 
<nalioth> you can link the NUN guidelines as a reference
<thoreauputic> nalioth: ah good idea
<nalioth> for now, anyway
<nalioth> and maybe leave em at the bottom for 'extra thought'
<tritium> Should we include #ubuntu-forums in that list, thoreauputic?  Perhaps as an ubuntu-focused channel, it should abide by the CoC as well, and any guidelines we have
<thoreauputic> tritium: yes, good idea
<nalioth> tritium: i think that's a kettle of piranha
<tritium> It might be a good way to bring them into the fold, so to speak.
<thoreauputic> tritium: I haven't actually got very far yet withthe wiki page - eacch time I preview takes ages on dialup :)
<tritium> thoreauputic, even just the placeholder is a good start for now, I'd say
<thoreauputic> yep - it will not have any content yet
<nalioth> piranha.
<tritium> I think we should ask for input from the CC before placing any guidelines there anyway
<tritium> And find out more about what sabdfl had in mind
<nalioth> i think having a general set of guidelines would be alright
<nalioth> they can be 'tuned' to CC wishes if necessary
<tritium> I don't see any harm in that
<tritium> Well, I have to get to Thanksgiving dinner at my sister's now.
<tritium> Have a good day, everyone.
<thoreauputic> see you tritium  :)
<tritium> bye :)
<nalioth> tritium: be safe, enjoy your holiday
<tritium> You too.
<thoreauputic> OK well I've just put a few channels and a link to NUNAgenda up for a starter - I have to go too now
<thoreauputic> nalioth: happy Thanksgiving to you :)
<nalioth> thoreauputic: you be safe, too
<thoreauputic> thanks - see you around :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-30
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | | 25 Nov 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 25 Nov 16:00 UTC: Desktop team | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council
* dholbach is so excited already.
<dholbach> Hi everybody!
<dholbach> can everybody, who is here for the Desktop Team meeting state their name?
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
<Nafallo> ChristianBjlevik
* seb128 is Sebastien Bacher
<dholbach> i see
<dholbach> that gives the meeting a more cozy atmosphere
<dholbach> shall we wait a minute or two? :)
* slomo is Sebastian Drge
* ogra is OliverGrawert
<dholbach> hi Simira 
<dholbach> hub excuses himself
<Simira> hi there. I seemed to have dropped into a meeting
<ogra> where is our jdub ? 
<dholbach> Simira: we were just about to start, interested in the desktop team meeting?
<dholbach> ogra: good question - some of us ask that ourselves for some days now ;)
<seb128> ogra: probably sleeping
<Simira> dholbach : not really, I'm on a workshop with another job ;)
<seb128> I've spoken with him on IRC 2 days ago
<seb128> he still have no DSL
<dholbach> Simira: i see
* MarioMeyer is Mario Meyer
<ogra> dholbach, i know he got a new DSL line which was delayed ... but thats a info from beginning of last week
<dholbach> ok
* lllmanulll is Manu Cornet
* dholbach knows those problems
<ogra> who doesnt :)
<dholbach> did vuntz say anything? :)
<seb128> vuntz: ping 
<dholbach> he just said, he wanted to have the announce on the fridge ;)
<dholbach> maybe that's why he didnt turn up :)
<dholbach> ok... let's get going anyways
<dholbach> seb128 and i were wondering, how we can put more life into the desktop team
<dholbach> while the announce ot the team itself was a success (look at the bunch of people, and especially upstream people that are in the channel), we thought we might promote the idea a bit more
<dholbach> we started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas with a bunch of ideas
<dholbach> i personally felt, that we might need a bit more of organisation and places to point people to, where they could help out, since the observation "seb128 does GNOME all alone" is kind of wrong ;)
<dholbach> i hope we can all agree on that :)
<seb128> yeah
<Nafallo> sure, it's seb128 and dholbach now ;-)
<seb128> lol
<dholbach> haha :)
<MarioMeyer> lol
<seb128> one to break stuff, the other one to fix
<Nafallo> lol
<seb128> and we switch every week :p
<dholbach> we switch every day to keep it exciting
<dholbach> or well... :)
<seb128> ;)
<dholbach> do you have any thoughts on this?
<ogra> i think the prob is that the desktop is in main ...
<Nafallo> better start making random switches for even more excitement :-)
<dholbach> initiatives we could start, things you'd expect from the team, ...
<seb128> and?
<ogra> its not as easy as getting your hands on universe packages
<dholbach> ogra:  do you think it'd help to state clearly, that we're happy to sponsor uploads until people are ready for main?
<ogra> people wont just jump on packages that are in main like they do for universe packages
<seb128> you can bug triage, have nice idea, package new stuff, send patches, do artwork (hey lllmanulll), etc
<ogra> dholbach, absolutely
<dholbach> ogra: ok, maybe we should make that clearer
<lllmanulll> Hey :)
<ogra> dholbach, not clearer, but more public .... shout it out to the world :)
* dholbach makes a note :)
<lllmanulll> I'll ask you guys about the stuff I did yesterday in a while, if there's nothing else to talk about :p
<dholbach> i thought, that maybe with a bit more of organisation (like description of workflow, ie: what to do, when upgrading a package, ...) might help with that too (to lower the entry point)
<dholbach> hey vuntz_ 
<dholbach> vuntz_: we started without you already
<seb128> hi vuntz_
<vuntz_> hi
<vuntz_> sorry for being late
<dholbach> what would you all like to see from the desktop team? or do in the desktop team?
<dholbach> does the MeetingIdeas page give you ideas, answer questions?
* mvo michael vogt and late
<ogra> what is " own Wiki table (apart from UniverseCandidates" ?
<dholbach> ogra: ah yes... i wanted to have a gnome/ubuntu-desktop specific table of stuff we take care of and we want to see ASAP
<ogra> does that mean NEW sftware or software that should move into the default desktop ? 
<dholbach> might move into the default desktop at some stage
<ogra> ah, yes
<dholbach> for example marlin (a sound editor) is still bumpy, but i'd really like to see it - so if we as a team could try to get it in (and working together with upstream), that'd be great
* dholbach feels like in the UbuntuAndUpstream-BOF again.
<ogra> heh
<dholbach> so you all see everything you want from the desktopteam going already? :)
<dholbach> once we're big enough as a team, we could even take more care of the gnome part of universe
<vuntz_> well, I think the team just needs a bit more organization, but in the end, we don't want too much organization (I guess)
<dholbach> vuntz_: it does, i agree with you
<dholbach> vuntz_: can you think of something that should be better defined?
<dholbach> seb128: do you think the point about making the desktop specs more "accessible" to people from the desktop team makes sense?
<vuntz_> dholbach: have permanent links of bugs to triage
<vuntz_> dholbach: have lists of easy bugs to fix
<dholbach> vuntz_: yeah, that'd be great
<vuntz_> lists of easy tasks to do
<seb128> dholbach: how accessible?
<vuntz_> it's also a matter of showing that it's easy to contribute :-)
<dholbach> seb128: 'accessible' like bits of specs, where people can help out
<seb128> we started alist of tasks
<dholbach> vuntz_: ++
<dholbach> yeah, i think that's a good start
<dholbach> did everybody know about DesktopTeam/TODO? :)
<ogra> nope
<vuntz_> not me
<seb128> I put some stuff here which would be useful
<seb128> than we want to do
<seb128> but what we don't do yet because we are too busy
<seb128> ie: stuff nice to contribute
<seb128> like splitting totem to make a mozilla binary package :)
<Nafallo> nope
<Nafallo> and getting the menuicon back :-P
<seb128> ?
* Nafallo hides*
<seb128> we have no such bug
<lllmanulll> I agree about the "easy things to do", and with this kind of list, I would certainly contribute much more :)
<dholbach> ReturnOfTheMenuIcons-BOF :)
<vuntz_> hey lllmanulll :-)
<Nafallo> seb128: I haven't filed it yet :-)
<seb128> lllmanulll: I've a special task for you, you started on it
<seb128> lllmanulll: the new gnome-session logout dialog seems a perfect job for you :)
<ogra> what about "ship activeX control dlls with wine" *g*
<vuntz_> also, I'm wondering how much the desktop team should work with upstream
<vuntz_> ie, how much new development should be done
<ogra> i guess wine will enter main at some point ...
<lllmanulll> seb128: All right, perfect :)
<seb128> lllmanulll: you really want to work on this? would be great
<vuntz_> (or if it's a "package, triage bugs & fix bugs" team)
<seb128> lllmanulll: that's probably much easier than the add to panel
<dholbach> vuntz_: the development depends on how much people are contributing
<lllmanulll> seb128: No problem
<seb128> rock
<vuntz_> dholbach: right :-)
<lllmanulll> seb128: I guess it would be quite easy, yeah
<dholbach> vuntz_: if somebody wants to hack gnome-panel to do $SOMETHING_CRAZY, we could push it into ubuntu to get people testing it and we'd contribute it upstream - i think that makes sense
<mvo> in general we do not too much development. but some HIG experts would be very welcome IMO :)
<dholbach> (as an example)
<lllmanulll> seb128: Huh, let me make sure : it's just a very simple dialog with four or five buttons with icons, and "OK" and "Cancel", right ? :)
<Nafallo> mvo++
<dholbach> mpt is unfortunately in holidays
<dholbach> i think he'd have had some ideas on this
<dholbach> i just created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/NewSoftware
<vuntz_> seb128/lllmanulll: note that markmc wanted to move the dialog to the panel
<seb128> lllmanulll: let's discuss that later on -desktop, but that's a real panel with 2 areas for the 2 kinds of actions (like windows has 2 buttons) and the icons here to do that
<seb128> vuntz_: what dialog? accept lllmanulll's work upstream?
<vuntz_> seb128: logout dialog
<seb128> oh, ok
<seb128> doesn't matter where the code is
<seb128> :)
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> I agree with mvo
<seb128> an usuability team would rock
<dholbach> did you all know about UsabilityWishlist?
<seb128> somebody to ping when you get usuability/HIG bugs and I've not clue about this
<lllmanulll> dholbach: Huh, no
<dholbach> :)
<seb128> not "no clue", but are not good at designing :)
<Nafallo> dholbach IS the wiki-master :-)
<mvo> usability team++
<lllmanulll> Yeah
<lllmanulll> But that's a lot of teams :) Couldn't usability issues be given to the Desktop team ? Or is this a totallly weird idea ? :)
<dholbach> a subteam, like some people who "have a clue" and enjoy doing HIG/usabilty?
<mvo> yeah, let's make it only one team for now
<dholbach> i met a guy here in berlin, who'd enjoy working on this
<dholbach> as ogra said: we should raise awareness of the team
<lllmanulll> I would love working on usability issues too
<dholbach> i think there are a lot of people using ubuntu, who would care about the desktop and love working on this
<seb128> would be nice to have a different list or something like GNOME guys do
<seb128> so you can Cc: usuability-list on a bug to get their opinion
<dholbach> sounds good, as soon as we have some more people for this
<dholbach> shall we start DesktopTeam/Organisation and dump our ideas there?
<dholbach> as we don't have a gobby session here ;)
<Nafallo> why don't we? :-)
<dholbach> because the wiki saves stuff more securely than gobby? :-p
<ogra> bah
* ogra will write a main inclusion report for gobby over the weekend and add it to edubuntu-desktop :p
<Nafallo> oki. I have only used it once so... ;-)
<Nafallo> ogra: yay! :-)
<dholbach> Nafallo: it trashed a couple of specs at UBZ :)
<ogra> dholbach, thats a user error :)
<mvo> ogra: ...
<dholbach> yeah, sorry, it was my mistake to not save every minute :)
<Nafallo> hehe
<ogra> *grin*
<Nafallo> ogra: implement auto-saving before MainInclusion to make it dholbach-friendly aswell? :-)
<ogra> hehe
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Organisation
<ogra> Nafallo, if $USER == 'somekindofholbach' autosave on ? 
<Nafallo> lol
<mvo> ogra: will you fix "close button closes on all clients without saving and asking" too first?
<dholbach> IS_DHOLBACH_USING_THIS=1 gobby       works normally
<ogra> mvo, probably ...
<ogra> :)
<ogra> i'll look at it ... i want it for edubuntu so i'll probably have to do the fixes
<ogra> dholbach, Organisation looks good ...
<ogra> so far
<lllmanulll> So what's the decision about usability ? Create a new list/team ? I'd *love* to participate :)
<dholbach> we should start with the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com list
<dholbach> and the team as it is
<seb128> I'm for creating the tools now
<seb128> I don't agree
<lllmanulll> All right, I vote for seb128 !
<lllmanulll> :-p
<dholbach> :)
<seb128> usuability is something that is useful for desktop guys
<dholbach> it's just that there is ~0 traffic on ubuntu-desktop@
<seb128> but need to be created because desktop guys often are not usuability expert
<seb128> or don't care
<seb128> or are not good at designing stuff
<seb128> and usuability guys probably don't want to follow all the technical discussions
<seb128> right, which is a different topic
<ogra> seb128, we'll need the people first ...
<seb128> I tend to think than people come when the thing exist
<ogra> make a call for help to the mailing lists at first step
<seb128> and don't come to force you to create it
<dholbach> look at the motu business - we STILL have no mailing list - do you think we'd get it for ubuntu-usability@ faster? :)
<ogra> get people in to show there is momentum ...
* vuntz_ wonders why his name appears in Organisation ;-)
<ogra> than ask for a list
<ogra> vuntz_, because you talked about the topic nextto it ;)
<seb128> vuntz_: what do you think? Creating a list first which will encourage enthousiastic people to subscribe, or other way?
<seb128> trying to get people using -desktop to start
<seb128> and moving if there is enough of them
<vuntz_> I'd say it's better to have only one list at the beginning
<seb128> k
<seb128> so let's use -desktop for it
<seb128> you guys win
<vuntz_> and I'm a bit afraid that we ask too much to usability people if they are only 2 or 3
* dholbach hugs seb128, so he's not unhappy any more
<vuntz_> (that's what's happening in GNOME for bugs...)
<seb128> I'm not unhappy
<dholbach> *nod*
<seb128> but I tend to think that usuability guys will not subscribe to a technical list
* lllmanulll has to go but no matter when the usability list is created, I will be glad to contribute :)
<ogra> is the -desktop list a technical list ? 
<seb128> is supposed to be yep
<ogra> i havent seen any technical stuff there yet
<seb128> the ubuntu-devel of the desktop team
<dholbach> lllmanulll: super, have a nice day :)
<seb128> no, there is virtually no discussion atm
<seb128> we use IRC most of the time :)
<lllmanulll> Cheers :)
<vuntz_> what about asking the people who will be in the usability subteam ?
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> dholbach: make a point to send a mail about bringing usuability people to the desktop team
<seb128> like 'call to voluntars"
<dholbach> YESSIR
<ogra> a real dholbach announce please :) they seem to attract people ;)
<ogra> (see the bugdays)
<dholbach> merci beaucoup
<seb128> with a nut of vuntz_ with it
* dholbach blushes and curtseys
<seb128> so it's perfect :)
<ogra> yeah
<dholbach> TODO-ed it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO)
<seb128> cool
<ogra> yay
<seb128> dholbach: should be keep the DONE points on a table to show what we have done?
<seb128> or just drop them
<dholbach> seb128: that sounds good - i always just dropped them
<dholbach> but we will do that
* dholbach changes
<seb128> dholbach: I've changed
<dholbach> and because the lists will be sooo long in the end, we will print them as books and they'll bestsellers
<dholbach> ROCK
<seb128> :)
<vuntz_> <seb128> we use IRC most of the time :)
<dholbach> good point
<vuntz_> seb128: btw, we might need to change this
<ogra> dholbach, make it a requirement for all ubuntu books to put them in as appendix A
<vuntz_> (if we want more people to contribute)
<seb128> yeah
<ogra> yup
<dholbach> yeah, we need to document better
<vuntz_> having more discussion on -desktop is a good way to show that the team is alive and well-working
<dholbach> sometimes, even i have no clue about things to come on (because i'm not chatting to upstream or debian guys all day)
<seb128> yeah, let's try to use the list when discussions could interest people
* seb128 just mailed about gconf changes :)
* dholbach saw it already :)
* ogra too ....
<seb128> I just sent it to -desktop
* Nafallo to
<vuntz_> seb128: you talked about things that could interest people ;-)
* vuntz_ runs
<seb128> vuntz_: define "people" :p
<Nafallo> ahh, that's what I was doing!
<seb128> do you call yourself people? :)
<Nafallo> *subscribing*
* vuntz_ waits for the mail to see if it's interesting
<vuntz_> :-)
<dholbach> that went to u-d-a@
<dholbach> :)
<ogra> and to u-d 
<ogra> and to u-dt
<ogra> seb128, crossposter :p
<seb128> announce and desktop only
<seb128> and desktop just because we said we should show we do work :)
<dholbach> nautilus-actions?
<dholbach> wow :)
<seb128> dholbach: read planet GNOME
<dholbach> i did
<seb128> k
<dholbach> so what will you guys do next week in your desktop team activities?
<vuntz_> hug everyone ?
<dholbach> sounds good :)
<vuntz_> or is it a bad answer?
<dholbach> i just thought, this might bring up some ideas :)
<ogra> isnt hugging a good idea ? 
<dholbach> it is :)
<ogra> i mean, dont we do our regular stuff on desktop packages anyway ? 
<vuntz_> dholbach: I think I'd like to help people getting involved
<dholbach> vuntz_: what were you thinking about?
<vuntz_> I'm pretty useless since I don't have a lot of time
<ogra> i.e. i'm fighting with a xscreensaver split into 6 packages .... do you want me to state that here ? 
<vuntz_> dholbach: well, making an easy-to-find place with easy tasks
<dholbach> vuntz_: you're not useless, i'm quite happy to have you here
<vuntz_> to be honest, this is something I'd like to do for GNOME too :-)
<dholbach> i very much appreciate this
<vuntz_> :-)
<seb128> that's why you guys should not vote for vuntz for the foundation :)
<vuntz_> seb128: I hope they're not Foundation memebers ;-)
* dholbach is Ubuntu Desktop Team member :)
<seb128> ;)
<vuntz_> okay, so, I'd like to see this:
<vuntz_> everytime something interesting in the desktop is done, a note is added on a wiki page
<vuntz_> then, we can make nice summaries so people can see what has been done
<seb128> good idea
<\sh> moins
<dholbach> that's brilliant, yes
<vuntz_> ideally, I'd like to see such a summary every week (or every two weeks)
* dholbach hugs vuntz_ 
<vuntz_> the mail would also contain some easy love tasks
<dholbach> seb128: that will mean, we have to do more work, to make those summaries more exciting
* seb128 blinks
<seb128> I already work like 15 hours/day
<seb128> :p
<vuntz_> (this is something secret I'm planning to do for GNOME too, btw)
* seb128 brb
<ogra> tsk... he sleeps 9h ? thats way to much :)
<dholbach> * uploaded gnome 2.15.2
<dholbach> * had a nice dog walk
<dholbach> * watched soccer game metz-nancy
<dholbach> * uploaded new gnumeric
<dholbach> * watched a nice movie in the cinema
<dholbach> * did a bug day
<dholbach> ^ that sounds good :)
<vuntz_> metz-nancy
<vuntz_> ahahahah
<vuntz_> does someone plan to send a summary of the meeting?
* dholbach can do that
<vuntz_> great
<seb128> vuntz_: thanks for voluntaring
<dholbach> have to do that for the a11y meeting anyways
<seb128> s/vuntz_/dholbach
<dholbach> de rien
<vuntz_> dholbach: I'm starting to be used to do this too ;-)
<vuntz_> anyway, less work for me. I love this :-)
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> i think for a first meeting this went quite well
<dholbach> less chaotic than i thought ;)
<seb128> yeah
<dholbach> shall we have a meeting in one month of time?
<Simira> I think maybe trying to blank a cd with cd-record has trashed a lot of my applications and made nothing work...
<dholbach> (for those that don't enjoy christmas with their family) ;)
<\sh> uh..
<slomo> dholbach: good idea, i'll be more active at that time ;)
<Nafallo> dholbach: *grin*
<\sh> 25. december is the birthday of my ex..and anglo-saxons highest xmas day..
<dholbach> \sh: you might have missed the smiley
<\sh> that means in the morning i'm with my little one...in the afternoon ok
<seb128> friday 16th?
<dholbach> sounds good
<\sh> dholbach: there is no smiley for me...normally i don't celebrate xmas when I'm in single status
<dholbach> should we have different times?
<dholbach> to accomodate the australian/american/asian folks?
<seb128> hum
<dholbach> or are we all ok with 16 UTC?
<seb128> 9utc?
<dholbach> 16th, 16 UTC sounds good, doesnt it? :)
<seb128> fine with me :)
<dholbach> ok, i'll put that in the meeting minutes as well
<dholbach> thank you very much everybody... i really appreciated your ideas and input
<dholbach> to be honest... in the first few silent minutes, i thought we were doomed :)
<dholbach> but now i'm quite confident, we'll get a super-duper desktop team rolling
<seb128> :)
<vuntz_> have to go
<vuntz_> see you later
<seb128> was a nice meeting
<seb128> thanks dholbach
<seb128> thanks everybody
<ogra> thanks daniel
<dholbach> i enjoyed it
<dholbach> everybody dismissed :)
<Nafallo> :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-02
<cyphase> hey everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-03
<Simira> ajmitch : NZ somewhat unstable today?
<dholbach> apparently so
<mvo> ajmitch: do you use nz.archive.ubuntu.com? I get a bad header error from it here
<dholbach> mvo: i guess he's sleeping :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-04
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 29 Nov 20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<pitti> hi
<seb128> hey pitti
<ogra> mrning pitti 
<pitti> seb128: here for the hide-admin-tools issue?
<Seveas> ah, TB meeting
<Seveas> that explains activity :)
<ogra> wow, huge agenda :)
<seb128> pitti: nop, just /j-ed because I've seen it was TB on my eds calendar and I'm around, I've not looked on the agenda :)
<\sh> jumping from one meeting to another
<seb128> pitti: because if you speak about hide-admin-tools I'm interested :)
<ogra> edubuntu too :)
<dholbach> mako wants to become a MOTU
<ogra> finally
<ogra> *g*
<\sh> WHAT?
<ogra> dholbach, tell him he has to send a $100 laptop to every MOTU first :)
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+members
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> that'd make sense
<\sh> hmm...i never worked with him, I saw him never in #ubuntu-motu..,)
<ogra> did mdz forget us ? 
<mdz> no
<ogra> :)
<mdz> workrave waits for no man
<ogra> lol
<Seveas> hehe
<mjg59> I'm actually here on time, for once
<Seveas> workrave is a bitch ;)
<mdz> Keybuk said he probably wouldn't be able to make it
<mdz> and I expect the same for sabdfl as he's travelling
<ogra> Seveas, obviously self chosen
<mdz> I think we can call this a quorum though
<mdz> there is one candidate for the core development team, Sebastian Drge
<mjg59> Shall we get on with things, then?
<mdz> is that slomo?
<dholbach> slomo, are you there?
<dholbach> mdz: yes
<mdz> launchpad says yes
<ogra> yup, thats slomo 
<mdz> slomo_: hello
<mdz> we were just looking for you
<slomo_> hi everybody, hi mdz :)
<slomo_> mdz: yes, ogra told me... sorry
<mdz> slomo_: you mention on your wiki page that you maintain a package in Debian; are you a DD or do you have a sponsor?
<slomo_> mdz: currently i only have some sponsors but i want to apply for NM in some months/weeks
<mdz> slomo_: who are your sponsors?
<slomo_> mdz: dajobe, ajmitch and lool
<mdz> are any of them present?
<mdz> maybe ajmitch, I'd like to hear from him
<sistpoty> ajmitch said he'd be on his way to work 10mins ago
<slomo_> he left only some minutes ago afaik :/ and the others are not present
<mjg59> slomo_: Your wiki page lists a couple of packages that are also in Debian (the musepack ones, from a quick search) - what the situation there?
<mdz> slomo_: do you have any specific plans which require upload privileges for main?
<slomo_> mjg59: i definitly have to update my wiki page ;) the xmms-musepack was uploaded by someone else some weeks ago... but i plan to get my bmp-musepack package in when i find a sponsor with some time... the other's are ubuntu only atm and i've itps for them
<mjg59> slomo_: Ok, cool
<slomo_> mdz: i want to work mostly on mono specific packages, helping ajmitch and tseng... but if some help is needed elsewhere i'm happy to help out wherever i could be useful
<ogra> mdz, we could drop xine on him ;)
<ogra> slomo does a lot with multimedia packages
<\sh> slomo is a tough guy for the hard nuts ... MOTU owe him a few 
<mdz> slomo_: which packages, and what sort of work?
<ajmitch_> morning
<slomo_> mdz: for mono? the complete mono stack from ground up... i.e. cli-common, mono, gtk#, monodoc, etc
* ajmitch_ didn't realise there was a TB meeting today, sorry :)
<ogra> Keybuk!!
<mdz> slomo_: what would you like to change about those packages presently?
<mdz> Keybuk: (slomo, https://launchpad.net/people/slomo applying for ubuntu-core-dev)
<slomo_> mdz: get the latest stuff in, get everything working fine together and we plan to get some more mono specific packages like gtk#2 for example to main for dapper
<ajmitch_> mdz: what would you like to ask about the sponsored packages or other work?
<mdz> slomo_: what is needed in order to get everything working well together?
<mdz> ajmitch_: yes, feel free
<ajmitch_> ok, slomo has done most of the mono work for dapper that was required for merging debian changes
<ajmitch_> he's worked well with the debian mono team to get issues sorted out
<ajmitch_> and the packages I've had time to sponsor have been very clean, with few things to fix up or clarify
<ajmitch_> I'd like to see him able to upload the mono stuff directly to main, especially as we get more of it in
<mdz> ajmitch_: thanks
<seb128> mdz: slomo_ works on gst-plugins-multiverse, he seems to be good job to coordinate with the main package and work with the Debian maintainer on changes too
<seb128> s/seems//
<mdz> seb128: that's great ,thanks
<seb128> s/seems to be/do/
<ogra> and slomo mainly maintains mplayer nowadays
<ogra> and ffmpeg etc ...
<mdz> slomo_: are you still there?
<slomo_> mdz: mostly dependencies between those packages... they're very closely tied. or for example when when updated to mono 1.1.9 some packages broke because of stricter compiler so these needed to be fixed too
<mdz> slomo_: what can we do to make that situation better?
<slomo_> mdz: sure, i needed to sort my thoughts a bit... i wasn't really prepared for this right now ;) i didn't know there was a meeting
<mdz> slomo_: if you would prefer to wait until the next meeting, that's no problem
<slomo_> mdz: mostly work with upstream to get everything in a stable state
<mdz> slomo_: I'm looking for specific and concrete actions that you would like to take in main, as examples of what we could expect from you
<ajmitch_> upstream being debian or real upstream of the programs that break?
<slomo_> mdz: ok... well, you could expect from me that i get the latest versions in until UVF, trying to keep breakages at the lowest level possible and get some more mono specific packages from universe to main and caring for them there
<mdz> slomo_: how would this relate to the work that tseng is currently doing on mono?
<slomo_> mdz: i would do exactly the same stuff he does... we would share the work between us to get more work done in shorter time
<slomo_> ajmitch_: both
<slomo_> mdz: also ogra's idea about working on multimedia packages appeals to me... for example i maybe could help seb128 with the transition to gst 0.10 later if he wants it... so if there is some work to be done in this area i would gladly help out
<mdz> slomo_: have you seen https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/video-playback ?
<mdz> I would like to hear your ideas about how we could provide the best unencumbered video playback capability in the default install
<slomo_> mdz: not yet, but i know that problem but haven't thought about a appropriate solution for it yet... but a/v sync problems should become better with gst 0.10 afaik
<seb128> slomo_: are you interested by splitting xine for this? :)
<mjg59> slomo_: We don't have a terribly good reputation as a multimedia distribution at the moment. Given the constraints we have (patents, free software) how do you see us changing that?
<slomo_> seb128: why not? but what exactly needs to be split off? well, let's talk about this later
<mdz> slomo_: he's talking about the video-playback spec I referred to earlier
<mdz> slomo_: do you have some ideas for any feature goals you would be interested in working on during the Dapper cycle, either something already in the spec tracker or an idea of your own?
<seb128> slomo_: the "Split xine such that only the Xiph codecs (and perhaps additional, unencumbered ones) are supported in main, the others will be shipped in universe" of the spec
<slomo_> mjg59: in regards to patents we currently support the most formats we are allowed to... improving on them would imho be the only way to get better. and these are most problems i heard people had with ubuntu.... i.e. they can't play their dvds out of the box
<mjg59> slomo_: Do you think we can do a better job of making it clear why they can't?
<slomo_> mdz: mostly the avahi goal but this is obviously completly unrelated to everything i talked about yet
<slomo_> seb128: sure, i could try splitting it that way
<seb128> would be nice :)
<seb128> thanks!
<slomo_> mjg59: only by writing more documentation... i see no other way. but currently the wiki already includes all this informations so no idea :/
<mjg59> slomo_: At the moment, I think we're integrating the technical side of multimedia into the distribution fairly well, but the social side is less clear
<slomo_> mjg59: yes but except doing more documentation, maybe writing a "multimedia guide" or something similar i see no way to let the people know why we can't support for example dvd playback out of the box
<mjg59> It would be good to think about ways we can improve that in the distribution, rather than just referring people to the wiki
<Burgwork> totem/rb needs to be able to tell people what specific codec they need
<mjg59> The totem user experience in Ubuntu is currently fairly dire
<mdz> slomo_: on your wiki page you mention that you find FreeBSD to be a superior server platform.  can you elaborate on this, and suggest specific improvements which could make Ubuntu a more natural choice for servers?
<slomo_> and for general improving of playback of all kinds of formats i think we should try to get more tests done... some of the issues which showed up after release like the dvd playback problem caused by gst-ffmpeg would be detected much earlier and could be tried to fix
<slomo_> mjg59: yes, i know nobody who uses totem atm because it's too unstable for them :( that needs to be improved somehow
<mdz> I use totem and have not found it unstable
<Burgwork> slomo, is that something we can push on to the laptop testing team? They already have the hardware
<slomo_> mdz: i think ubuntu is on the best way to be better on the server side. i started using freebsd on servers already some time ago and the biggest advantage i saw was that you had a main system which is perfectly integerated and almost bug free... but imho the same already applies to ubuntu now... in fact i'm already using ubuntu on one server now
<slomo_> mdz: it's mostly the applet or when playing wmv/quicktime... for "normal" formats it works well... normal beeing xvid, theora, vorbis, etc
<mdz> slomo_: what do you think we could do to better test multimedia support as you propose?
<slomo_> mdz: get a bunch of people who regurlary test popular and unpopular formats... and report their problems ;) maybe make a list of formats we can play and check if it works regularly
<ogra> slomo_, volunteering to make a testplan ? ;)
<dholbach> ogra: add it to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TestPlans :)
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> dholbach, only if he says he does ;)
<slomo_> ogra: sure... i think i can try to get something reasonable done soon :)
<ajmitch_> ogra: why? just volunteer him for it
<ogra> ajmitch_, i'm the evil recruiter, but not *that* evil :)
<mdz> slomo_: what I would suggest is to extend https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/test-plans to include a simple multimedia test in the test plan
<ajmitch_> ogra: go on, take the next step ;)
<mdz> slomo_: perhaps you could work with dholbach on this
<dholbach> i'm happy to
<slomo_> mdz: sure... sounds good :)
<mdz> slomo_: and also to help with https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/example-content to ensure that we have a good test video stream in the default install to facilitate that
<mdz> mjg59: do you have any further questions you'd like to ask?
<mdz> if not, I'm ready to call a vote
<mjg59> I think I'm done
<mdz> ok, votes?
<ogra> +1 (if i could)
<mdz> ogra: please leave the voting to the board
<mjg59> I think +1, based on the discussion of a testing regime and thinking about improving the entire user experience
<mdz> +1 from me based on positive feedback from the development team and the potential for solid contributions to main
* dholbach hugs slomo 
<mdz> slomo_: congratulations, thanks and welcome
* ogra applauds
* slomo_ hugs dholbach :)
<ajmitch_> well done slomo_ 
<slomo_> thanks everybody :)
<dholbach> EXCELLENT
* pitti ^5 slomo, welcome to the main team!
<seb128> slomo_: congrats
* \sh hugs slomo and congrats him :)
<seb128> slomo_: I'll ping you for gst0.10 so :)
<\sh> I read correctly: only two votes? was it the first time that a main dev had only two votes?
<mdz> \sh: no, we have many times had 2/3 votes
<dholbach> slomo_: now if i might invite you to #ubuntu-desktop, we have some things to discuss ... :-p (seb: we have him)
<mdz> but today we have only 2/4 present and 2/2 votes
<\sh> mdz: oh ok :)
<sistpoty> congrats slomo
<\sh> dholbach: don't take him away from the motu...
<mdz> janimo: you proposed yourself for core-dev during the meeting; did you intend to apply during this meeting or for the next one?
<slomo_> dholbach: sure, but i don't have that much time today anymore ;) need to do some university stuff now... only made a break for the meeting now ;)
<slomo_> \sh: don't worry :)
<janimo> mdz, no hurry, as long as xfce is still in universe
<janimo> next time is fine
<mdz> janimo: since we've been here an hour already and have more agenda already, if you don't mind waiting, I think that would be better
<janimo> ok, np
<mdz> we seem to have 3 new MOTU candidates since the last meeting
<dholbach> mako :)
<mdz> zakame doesn't seem to be here
<mdz> mako: ping
<mdz> bojan doesn't seem to be here
<ajmitch_> sadly, since zakame has been doing a fair bit of work lately with merges
<\sh> hmmm...
<mdz> mjg59: I'm comfortable considering mako in absentia if you are, since we know him quite well already
<dholbach> what happened to bmonty?
<\sh> bmonty can't be here again.....but I would like to propose a vote in absentia 
<mjg59> Yup
<\sh> because bmonty did now a great work during the merge etc. and I really like to see him in the team.
<mdz> +1 from me for mako, no-brainer based on past contributions to both Debian and Ubuntu
<mjg59> +1 for mako, too
<mdz> done and done
<ajmitch_> that was a quick appointment :)
<\sh> mako: do some merges asap :) 
<Seveas> wow, fastest ever I guess :)
<ogra> yes, bmonty was postponed several times ...
<dholbach> \sh: i watched his work too, and i was impressed, by how much bmonty did during those merges
<mdz> mako has been contributing to Ubuntu since its inception and has only now decided to apply officially ;-)
<\sh> dholbach: yes .. I did some uploads for him the last days...and I'm impressed
<ogra> and prepares uploads all the time for us ... its a bit sad
<sistpoty> yes... the few packages of bmonty i came to look over showed good packageing skills. and he did _lots_ of work
<slomo_> bmonty would also get a vote by me... he does _SO_ many merges lately we almost can't keep up with uploading his stuff
<sistpoty> and he interacts with debian (files bug w. patches in BTS for stuff he changes)
<mdz> is he mostly doing trivial merges from MOM or more in-depth merging as well?
<\sh> mdz: both
<mdz> ok
<\sh> mdz: most of universe is trivial only one out of 50 is really non trivial
<\sh> (forgetting the gstreamer universe packages of slomo)
<mdz> mjg59: any questions regarding bmonty?
* sistpoty counts 24 dapper changes mails from bmonty
<\sh> sistpoty: and some syncs he couldn't request
<mjg59> mdz: Don't think so - motu reports sound good
<mdz> yes, while he isn't present there are several people here willing to provide testimonials
<\sh> sistpoty: and not all of his reports are uploaded actually
<mdz> votes?
<ogra> he was really patient with being postponed from meeting to meeting ...
<mjg59> +1 from me
<mdz> +1 from me based on testimonials from several regular MOTU contributors and reviewers, both at this meeting and previous ones
<dholbach> cool :)
<ajmitch_> we'll inform him of the good news then
<mdz> dholbach: will you pass on the news to him personally?
<sistpoty> \sh: very true... we need to sponsor more uploads. I think I'll go for this tonight... -> motu after meeting
<ogra> welcome bmonty in absentia !
<dholbach> mdz: i will
<\sh> mjg59 / mdz: thanks :)
<mdz> dholbach: thanks, send my congratulations
<dholbach> mdz: as personally, as internet lets me :)
<\sh> dholbach: blog it :)
<dholbach> we don't have a MOTUPhoneNumber page yet :)
<\sh> dholbach: I know he is reading the planet :)
<\sh> +49 700 sourcecode? ,-)
<mdz> there are 18 pending applications in launchpad right now
<Seveas> Dial M for MOTU ;)
<\sh> or should I get +49 700 motu ?
<mdz> ogra,dholbach: would you ping each of them and confirm that they still intend to apply and will attend a meeting?  we need to clean out that list
<ogra> mdz, 90% of them i've never heard of
<dholbach> mdz: i know 3 of those missing ones
<ogra> or seen them on irc
<dholbach> mdz: that's sivang, vuntz and zakame
<mdz> if you've never heard of them, they should receive a form letter explaining how the process works
<pitti> btw, what about cleaning up members which are inactive? like astaroth?
<ogra> most of them dont even have a wikipage
<dholbach> mdz: i will take care of that
<mdz> dholbach: thank you very much
<dholbach> de rien
<ajmitch_> pitti: I think maintainership was meant to have a year or 2 year term, right?
<pitti> ajmitch_: ah, ok
<mdz> pitti: what is astaroth's real name?
<pitti> mdz: Gerardo di Giacomo
<pitti> mdz: the guy who helped with universe security updates until he became a MOTU
<pitti> it's by no way urgent to remove him, this example just came into my mind
<mdz> pitti: please ping him and see if he intends to contribute in the future
<pitti> yes, will do
<dholbach> same for some other folks
<mdz> pitti: we should not generally deactivate anyone simply because they go inactive; we have the expiration process for that
<zakame> hi all
<ajmitch_> hi zakame 
<\sh> dholbach: we should discuss how we should proceed with this "problem"
<dholbach> \sh: it's hard to decide... pinging back is the only thing, i can think of - there are times in life, where you simply don't have the time or drive to do it
<mdz> \sh: a reasonable approach is to contact them and ask their intentions.  if they say that they can't or won't contribute anymore, they can voluntarily deactivate themselves in launchpad
<mdz> \sh: and if they don't respond, they will eventually expire
<\sh> mdz: ok..so the expiration process is already working :)
<mdz> zakame: just in time
<zakame> mdz: thank you :)
<ajmitch_> mdz: will we have to undergo another interrogation around expiry time? :)
<mdz> dholbach: you mentioned that you had some experience working with zakame?
<mdz> ajmitch_: we have some time to finalize that part of the process ;-)
<ogra> zakame, nice wikipage :)
<zakame> ogra: many thanks :)
<dholbach> mdz: that i "knew him" and watched his progress - he's been fairly busy in the mergers crew and iirc did some std allocator changes as well
<dholbach> mdz: i have 217 bug mails from him, mostly merges, some bug triaging work as well
<zakame> just a couple for c2a i think... libcommoncpp2 was already done in debian, and my most recent one was for MAS
<dholbach> i'm not too familiar with his work, but what he said in #ubuntu-motu usually was sound
<ogra> zakame, you dont mention that you help in edubuntu too on your wiki ....
<sistpoty> though I haven't reviewed much of his work, I'm impressed by zakame's amount of work... 
<\sh> oh yes..zakame is just hard working like bmonty or ajmitch, slomo, siretart, sistpoty or my person.
<mdz> zakame: I happened to notice your merge of lostirc; it looks like the only Ubuntu-specific change had been to update to a new upstream version, which is now in Debian.  why was this a merge rather than a sync?
<\sh> I had a view over his work, and his debdiffs were very good, for the time he's doing motu work. I'm happy to have him in the team
<zakame> mdz: hm, you're right, this seems to just update aclocal.m4, and yes, S-V :(  my bad!
<\sh> mdz: beginners luck I would name it...because I'm the one who has "beginners luck" all the time...;)
<zakame> ogra: Ooh!  I forgot that part!  very sorry!!!
<ogra> mdz, zakame expressed interest to help in edubuntu ... 
<mdz> zakame: please be careful with that in the future; each package which is diverged creates more work for the team
<ogra> zakame, was it doc or dev ? 
<zakame> mdz: yes, I'll keep that in mind
<mdz> zakame: who sponsors your uploads to Ubuntu usually?
<zakame> ogra: hm, I'm collaborating with some teachers at the local school to implement an edubuntu system... we currently are running hoary, but I managed to get hold of edubuntu yesterday, so we'll be trying to upgrade maybe this afternoon
<ogra> cool
<\sh> mdz: nafallo and I
<zakame> mdz: Nafallo_away did most of the sponsoring, though most recently \sh sponsored logilab-common and another...
<\sh> zakame: we'll take a look for the others...actually I was busy merging during the weekend...so I have to find the time to get all pending uploads done from malone
<mdz> mjg59: anything else before voting?
<mjg59> Don't tihnk so
<zakame> \sh: thanks again :) most of them are PendingSync
<mdz> likewise
<mdz> +1 based on my own examination of various uploads, testimonials from MOTU and discussion
<\sh> zakame: if you can provide me a list of malone numbers :) that would be great :)
<mjg59> +1 based on the MOTU opinions
<ogra> \sh, see wikipage :)
<mdz> zakame: welcome aboard
* dholbach hugs zakame 
<dholbach> that's brilliant news :)
<sistpoty> congrats zakame
<ogra> yay, welcome zakame 
<minghua> zakame: congratulations. :-)
<\sh> zakame: welcome aboard :) good shot :)
<slomo_> zakame: congrats :)
<mdz> pitti: you wanted to discuss something regarding sudo?
<pitti> right
<ajmitch_> zakame: well done
<zakame> yay!
* zakame hugs everybody :D
<pitti> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-November/013260.html
<pitti> ^ for reference
<zakame> many thanks all! :)
<pitti> there was not much fruitful discussion
<mdz> right, this thread is long and I haven't had a chance to read it yet
<pitti> the problem is in short:
<pitti> initially we wanted to use sudo -t command to check whether an user can execute command
<\sh> zakame: cool page :) I'll work with the information from this page 
<zakame> \sh: thanks
<pitti> if that would log auth failures, then it would remain compatible with default sudo behaviour on servers and not circumvent security checks
<mdz> pitti: I think extending sudo to parse the .desktop file adds undesirable complexity to a setuid root program
<pitti> mdz: I only see two options TBH: parse .desktop files in sudo or fall back to the broken group check
<pitti> mdz: parsing .desktop files would nicely solve the desktop/server conflict
<pitti> on servers there won't be .desktop files, so that sudo checks are not impeded
<pitti> and on desktops we would avoid the log clutter from failed checks
<mdz> pitti: it would certainly be nice to avoid execing sudo so many times during every login
<pitti> mdz: well, we need to execute it once for every desktop file that wants root
<mjg59> pitti: The sudo -t case would presumably also result in error mails every time someone logs in?
<pitti> i. e. maybe 15 times for a normal system per login
<ogra> how would that cope with the gnome speeup plans ? 
<ogra> *speedup
<pitti> mjg59: right, that's the most annoying thing right now
<mjg59> Why are we trying to achieve this?
<mdz> mjg59: in order to simplify the menus for unprivileged users
<pitti> mjg59: we want to hide admin tools from the menu for users who aren't admins
<mdz> i.e., don't show them administrative tools requiring sudo if they won't be able to use them
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HideAdminToolsToUsers
<mjg59> Surely a common use case is that an admin will wish to debug things while a user is logged in?
<mdz> mjg59: the menu items have no chance of working unless the user has sudo rights
<Mithrandir> pitti: can't we write a helper which is suid root and parses the desktop files and asks sudo "can this user run this command"?
<mjg59> Hrm. True.
<pitti> mjg59: 'run program as another user'
<ogra> and the worst thing is that they just silently fail
<pitti> Mithrandir: what would that solve?
<pitti> Mithrandir: sudo would still log violations
<Mithrandir> pitti: it would not put the desktop parsing code in sudo.
<pitti> Mithrandir: and doing the check in sudo is safer than writing a new program from scratch
<mjg59> ogra: I think the silent failure is a bug in itself, but still...
<ogra> yup
<mdz> Mithrandir: that code would still run as root, though
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, but it would be easier to merge from debian that way.
<pitti> I mean, parsing is not terribly difficult
<pitti> but of course it must be done carefully
<mjg59> But surely this inevitably subverts part of sudo's security?
<Mithrandir> pitti: I just don't see upstream wanting to incorporate that patch, without knowing sudo upstream.
<mdz> pitti: is there a program which is run whenever a new .desktop file is instaled?
<pitti> mjg59: to the extent that an intruder can check commands mentioned in installed (root owned) desktop files
<mdz> pitti: one approach would be to have such a program dump a list of all of the relevant commands to a (trusted) file and have sudo suppress its error reporting for any command listed exactly in that file
<pitti> mjg59: but on desktops we can safely forget about logging anyway
<mjg59> pitti: Which, in a standard ubuntu install, amounts to everything
<pitti> mdz: dpkg install hooks? (SCNR)
<mvo> there is dh_desktop 
<pitti> mjg59: why everything?
<pitti> mjg59: on a server there won't be any/many desktop files
<mjg59> pitti: If a user has sudo rights to execute admin tools, they have sudo rights to execute anything
<pitti> and seriously, whoever runs sudo under X doesn't need to care about the logging
<pitti> mjg59: under X at least (event injection, etc.)
<mdz> pitti: what does a hypothetical attacker gain by being able to test for sudo rights in this way?  any attempt to use those rights is more closely scrutinized
<pitti> mjg59: but the case I worry about is to not impede server security checks
<mjg59> To be honest, I'm fairly strongly of the opinion that we should just accept that we made a mistake in Warty, cut our losses and just display them for users in the admin group and otherwise not do so
<mdz> pitti: for the common case, any unprivileged user on the system can already check for membership in the admin group
<pitti> mdz: he can silently poke around to check which privileges a cracked user account has
<pitti> mdz: right now, sudo immediately mails out failures to the admin
<mjg59> Rather than produce a complex solution that provides extra information leakage about what rights a user has
<pitti> mdz: so that the admin can quickly close the user account, etc.
<mdz> mjg59: if we do that, we need to heuristically add users to the admin group on upgrades
<pitti> mjg59: but that's not just a warty upgrade issue
<mjg59> mdz: No, we can document it in the release notes
<mdz> pitti: they can already do that silently with 'groups'
<pitti> sudo is more flexible than just crude admin/no admin 
<mjg59> "Admin applications will only be visible to users in the admin group"
<dholbach> sorry, i'll leave now, because i'm dead tired - good night
<mjg59> pitti: Yes, but it's not the sudo case that we care about really
<ogra> bye dholbach 
<mdz> mjg59: we don't display the release notes on upgrades yet
<zakame> bye dholbach :)
<pitti> mjg59: well, the question is if we do...
<mjg59> What we care about is "should this user see these icons"
<pitti> I don't see why we should force admins to use the admin group
<mjg59> pitti: Because it's the existing mechanism for flagging user capabilities
<mdz> pitti: I don't think we should; I'm just pointing out that we already make most of this information available by using the admin group the way wedo
<pitti> mdz: not on my server :) I use /etc/suders to directly configure allowed commands for users, not via groups
<mjg59> In the brave new world of selinux, the obvious thing to do would be to have admin users have an selinux capability
<pitti> mdz: I agree, when the admin group is used, the case is trivial
<ajmitch_> that brave new world won't be on by default in dapper 
<mdz> and that is our default configuration for Ubuntu
<Mithrandir> mjg59: what would we do in the cases of people being allowed to do some things as root, but not all?
<ogra> mdz, not for warty upgraded systems
<mjg59> Limiting visiblity to people in the admin group fixes the vast majority of cases that we're worried about, and doesn't involve us developing what is, effectively, a new authentication mechanism
<mdz> ogra: that is missing the point
<ogra> mdz, that will be a good bunch of users ....
<pitti> mjg59: but that makes the usage of non-group sudo impossible
<janimo> checking sudo -t only once and then using a blacklist of apps which are not to be shown? would that not scale?
<mjg59> pitti: No it doesn't
<pitti> mjg59: since then the users would never see the desktop files
<mjg59> pitti: The apps can be run from a shell
<mdz> ogra: the only reason not to use sudo for this is that it reveals information
<pitti> mjg59: right, of course
<pitti> I mean in terms of correct menus
<mjg59> pitti: They can launch a shell, add themselves to the admin group and then re-login
<mdz> ogra: but that is only the case if the user has extensively customized the system, since our default configuration and tools reveal it already
<pitti> mjg59: erm?
<mdz> janimo: what would the blacklist contain?
<pitti> mjg59: if I allow an user to run only a particular command as root, he can't
<pitti> janimo: that doesn't react to changes
<janimo> the apps which are to be run only as sudo 
<mjg59> pitti: Are you suggesting that certain users should have access to specific admin tools, but not all?
<janimo> changes as in introducing new packages?
<pitti> janimo: we already know this, it's in the desktop files
<mjg59> pitti: Making icon visibility depend on being in the admin group doesn't mean that the admin group must have full sudo rights
<ogra> mdz, my initail reaction was the same as yours, but Kamion made some valid points i cant remember currently ... sad he isnt here
<pitti> mjg59: why not? I could allow an user to set the time, but nothing else
<mjg59> pitti: It's an insanely tiny use-case
<pitti> well, ok, if we say that we basically ignore /etc/sudoers and jsut support admin group, that's fine for me
<mdz> mjg59: we don't need to account for it in our defaults, but we should avoid making it impossible if w ecan
<pitti> I just want to have that decision formally settled
<mjg59> mdz: It would still be possible by changing the semantics of the admin group on that system
<mdz> mjg59: how do you mean?
<mjg59> mdz: Don't give admin users sudo rights
<pitti> mjg59: no, you need several groups then, which we don't suport
<pitti> mjg59: well, we could have a mapping somewhere
<mjg59> pitti: We don't support it how?
<pitti> group -> desktop files
<mdz> mjg59: hmm
<mjg59> I mean, you /could/ solve this just by having the desktop files be 640, right?
<pitti> mjg59: i. e. the menu only reflects admin membership, not the actual privileges an user ahs
<pitti> has, even
<mjg59> Or just using ACLs
<pitti> mjg59: sure, but who configures that?
<mjg59> pitti: The admin
<pitti> dpkg-statoverride? well, that would work
<mjg59> I'm sorry, I feel like I must be missing something really obvious here
<pitti> but it certainly needs a guy
<pitti> gui, even
<mdz> mjg59: we have some conflicting goals
<mdz> we would like to hide the entries where the user can't possibly make use of them
<pitti> our current sudo supports sudo -t command
<mdz> but we want to avoid hiding them if the user can use them
<pitti> but that generates clutter on desktops
<pitti> so we need to test at a higher level
<Mithrandir> pitti: can we just get sudo -t to log, but not mail?  I think that would be ok.
<mjg59> mdz: But that goal inherently provides information leakage about user capabilities
<mdz> we implemented a solution as pitti describes which makes it trivial to query sudo for this information
<pitti> Mithrandir: then we don't need mail for sudo without -t either
<mdz> mjg59: yes, in my opinion a certain amount of leakage is probably OKO
<mdz> OK
<pitti> Mithrandir: which would change sudo semantics on servers, too
<pitti> Mithrandir: sudo -t command && sudo command 
<Mithrandir> pitti: hmm, right.
<mjg59> mdz: I worry about changing security expectations from traditional unix
<pitti> mjg59: right, the question is how much leakage we want to sacrifice for this hide-admin spec
<mdz> pitti: hmm?
<ogra> cant you add a switch to sudo for mailing the admin can set ? 
<mdz> mjg59: I think sudo is a bit young to have traditional security expectations
<ogra> i.e. have it off by default on desktops and on on servers ? 
<mdz> and this problem only applies to sudo
<pitti> ogra: sure, but I doubt that it would be easier than grepping desktop files
<mjg59> mdz: I've seen people using it for years
<pitti> ogra: what defines a server then?
<\sh> sudo is not young..it wasn't popular...just like the story about telnet and ssh
<ogra> pitti, dunno, but we build this system, we can define it ...
<mdz> mjg59: I agree with you in that getting to dapper from warty requires fairly extensive command-line familiarity already
<pitti> ogra: the problem is, the admin defines the purpose of the install, not we :)
<mdz> mjg59: but I think we need to do better than the release notes if we're going to rely on admin membership in this way
<ogra> pitti, but we can define flags that get set, based on default options the installing person choose
<pitti> ogra: right, that was option 2 in my email to u-d
<ogra> or checks
<mdz> pitti: do you think we could safely add users to the admin group on upgrades?
<mjg59> mdz: Well, it's possible to do that (at the cost of requiring manual intervention during the upgrade)
<pitti> mdz: no, I'd not do that
<mdz> the entry created in sudoers by the installer is specially marked
<pitti> mdz: IF the admin configured fine-grained permissions, then this would lead to privilege escalation
<Mithrandir> mdz: we could have an upgrade tool which asked the admin how he wanted stuff done, but I dislike that.
* ajmitch_ hasn't added an admin group here, and probably would be surprised to see it on an upgrade
<mdz> pitti: I think that can be avoided
<pitti> well, I wouldn't have a good feeling with changing group memberships on upgrades, even less so with admin
<\sh> mdz: this is somehow not the right solution...better to ask during dist-upgrade "Who is your admin user?"
<mdz> pitti: the process would be to check for an entry in sudoers of the form:
<Mithrandir> something like a ubuntu-fixup package which asked questions and tried to fix stuff in the postinst.
<mdz> # Added by Ubuntu installer
<mdz> mdz     ALL=(ALL) ALL
<pitti> mdz: we check for a default sudoers and do it only then?
<mdz> pitti: a sudoers with the default entry
<mdz> pitti: which is equivalent to admin group membership
<mdz> i.e., unrestricted sudo to root
<pitti> mdz: well, that would cover the warty upgrade, what about the general usage of visudo without admin group?
<pitti> i. e. finer grained privs?
<mdz> pitti: wouldn't those be superseded by the ALL entry?
<mdz> configuring finer-grained privileges would require removing the ALL entry
<pitti> mdz: I mean with nonstandard sudoers (when we don't add users to admin)
<pitti> not for upgrades
<mdz> pitti: I don't understand
<pitti> mdz: if I allow joe to use sudo time-admin, but nothing else, then joe would not see time-admin in the menu
<pitti> mdz: if we don't care about this case, then group check is sufficient
<pitti> if we do, then it's not
<mdz> pitti: unless you add joe to the admin group
<mjg59> Does dpkg-statoverrides have support for POSIX ACLs?
<mdz> mjg59: RUN AWAY
<mjg59> mdz: But then he'd see all of them, not just time
<mdz> mjg59: that is acceptable to me
<pitti> mdz: he would not be in admin, of course, otherwise the 'sudo time-admin' entry would be pointless
<mdz> pitti: if the admin wants finer grained permissions, they would remove the %admin entry
<pitti> I know that it's a corner case
<\sh> pitti: is this the normal use-case for desktop installations?
<pitti> but we should clearly say whether or not we support it
<pitti> \sh: no
<\sh> I think I can remember windows xp asking even unprivilegded users to update windows xp via windows update
<mjg59> pitti: It's something that can be supported by the admin removing the read bit from the desktop files, and then adding individual users to an associated ACL
<\sh> and the user clicks on the toaster and "u don't have rights"
<ogra> \sh, remember we are better than MS
<pitti> mjg59: I agree
<mjg59> And I think we support ACLs on all our supported filesystems
<mdz> mjg59: which ones are our supported filesystems?
<ogra> heh
<pitti> it's just not something a non-hardcore freak would do
<mdz> mjg59: currently, the process for granting admin privileges is trivial: adduser <user> admin, or check the tick box in the GUI tool
<\sh> ogra: what I wanted to say with this is: what is the typical use case for a desktop...single machine. and if there is a second or third account most people don't care if they see the admin tools or not...if they get the "sorry, not allowed" message..they don't care anymore
<mjg59> mdz: Right, and I'd see that as the default
<mdz> ACLs complicate that for both cases (more commands, and complicating the tool)
<mdz> mjg59: so you're suggesting that we don't try to hide these entries by default?
<mjg59> No, we hide those entries by default
<mdz> mjg59: and leave it to the admin only if they really want to configure it that way?
<pitti> but isn't our problem exactly the other way round?
<mdz> pitti: yes
<mjg59> In the corner case of an admin wanting a user to be able to run a single application but not all of them, they use the ACL solution
<pitti> users who aren't in admin, but have special rights won't see the desktop file
<pitti> instead of users without rights see them
<mjg59> mdz: ext3, xfs, jfs, reiserfs and nfs support them
<mdz> mjg59: the ACL solution being: remove the %admin entry from sudoers, add the more specific entries, and set ACLs on the .desktop files corresponding to the more specific entries?
<pitti> ah, I see, we make the desktop files root:admin 640 by default?
<mjg59> mdz: Correct
<mjg59> pitti: Yeah, that would work
<mdz> mjg59: I think dpkg probably clobbers ACLs on upgrades
<mjg59> mdz: Well, that's a feature request for dpkg :)
<ogra> and i dont think we need even to think about this special cornercase ...
<ogra> switch all on or all off ...
<pitti> "Dear Keybuk, please teach dpkg-statoverride ACLs, kthxbye"?
<mdz> pitti: I have an idea
<pitti> give us the ultimate solution, Matt! :)
<mdz> pitti: we could allow users to query sudo without any logging or warning if they are in the admin group
<\sh> hmmm....
<mdz> pitti: and otherwise, fall back to displaying all of the menu entries
<pitti> mdz: that's what happen right now
<pitti> oh, wait
<ogra> isnt that backwards ? 
<pitti> well, if they are in admin, then we already know everything
<mdz> IFF they are in the admin group
<pitti> we want to know information if they aren't
<ogra> exactly
<mdz> if they aren't, we just display everything
<ogra> but we dont want this
<mjg59> mdz: Uhm. No, surely?
<pitti> well, then we don't need to do anything :)
<mdz> I'm not particularly interested in having finer-grained menu entries corresponding to finer-grained sudoers
<mdz> I just don't want the functionality to disappear from the desktop undesirably
<pitti> becaue that would mean to always show everything :)
<mjg59> mdz: If they're not in the admin group, we don't want to display anything
<mdz> mjg59: you are introducing facts into the discussion
<ogra> lol
<\sh> I wonder if it's possible to create a patch which is doing the query if a user is in admin group or not inside of the menu display 
<mjg59> Simplest solution:
<mjg59> 1) Make .desktop files 640 and group admin owned 
<pitti> \sh: that's easy, yes
<mjg59> 2) Transition default user to admin group for warty upgrades
<mjg59> Result: Most use cases sorted
<mdz> mjg59: 2) is scary
<pitti> I have a bad feeling about 2)
<ogra> mjg59, how do we know its a warty upgrade ? 
<\sh> pitti: and the gnome-menu reads the desktop file, right?
<pitti> but I like 1)
<mjg59> We're talking about users who, in sudoers, have ALL=(ALL), right?
<pitti> \sh: right
<mdz> mjg59: we don't have a persistent record of who the default user is and whether it's been customized
<mjg59> So they could add themselves to the admin group *anyway*
<pitti> right
<ogra> mjg59, yes, but i might have set this in a brandnew breezy because i think its cool
<mdz> mjg59: it seems probable that there are corner cases
<ogra> so we would break hat
<ogra> that*
<pitti> I'm not questioning that, but we have to make damn sure that we get that right
<mdz> what happens when you have multiple matching entries in sudoers for a user?
<mjg59> mdz: If they have a fine-grained setup, we do nothing
<\sh> pitti: so..when we set a special "X-Admin: true/false" inside of the admin apps and checking in gnome-menu if or if not the user a) is in admin group or not and b) if the app which is described in .desktop is admin tool or not..and then display or not display it
<mdz> mjg59: meaning what?  we don't touch it unless it hasn't been modified since installation?
<pitti> \sh: see the spec, yes
<mdz> mjg59: I'm saying that I think sudoers semantics may allow a finer-grained setup without removing the default entry
<mjg59> mdz: I think we can justifiably add any user who has privileges to run anything to the admin group
<pitti> mjg59: your chmod solution has the added benefit that we don't actually need to add that X-Requires-Root: true key :)
<Mithrandir> mjg59: that's not problematic, I think giving the admin group root-equivalent priviledges might be more problematic.
* ogra still wonders why we solve a GUI problem in the backend, and not in the GUI
<\sh> ogra: you can read my mind?
<mdz> mjg59: I'm saying that that situation is difficult to detect reliably; it may not be as simple as looking for the expected line in sudoers
<mdz> mjg59: and the risks of being too liberal are pretty severe
<ogra> its a task for gnome-menus as it was thought out in the beginning imho
<pitti> ogra: how do you want to determine if user foo can execute sudo command?
<ogra> pitti, if i check his groups
<pitti> mdz: if we go for group checking, then I'd prefer a release note
<\sh> pitti: sudo should be excuted by anyone...the app to run afterwards is determined by sudoers...we still have the cli 
<mdz> pitti: I fear that we will be flooded by reports of users upgrading and then being locked out
<pitti> not doing a relative simple .desktop parsing for security reasons, and then add a highly delicate sudoers rewriting doesn't fit together
<ogra> i wouldnt touch sudo at all ...
<mdz> pitti: we don't know how many breezy systems are out there which are upgrades from hoary and warty
<mjg59> The current options have at least one of the following problems:
<mjg59> a) Increase information leakage
<pitti> ogra: well, but see backlog, not every sudoer is in admin group
<mjg59> b) Increase code run as root
<mjg59> c) Are awkward for upgrades
<mdz> we've already increased the information leakage
<mjg59> mdz: How?
<ogra> pitti, corner cases ...
<pitti> with the admin group
<mdz> mjg59: sudo -t no longer asks for a password
<mjg59> mdz: I think that's a bug
<mdz> mjg59: it just bitches in the log
<\sh> pitti: but during a dist-upgrade from warthy, hoary, breezy to dapper, we could ask questions...and we can "rearrange /etc/sudoers"
<pitti> mdz: how is that information disclosure?
<mdz> pitti: for the same reasons we've been discussing all along
<ogra> why not focus on the group and make a note in the release notes ... to warty systems it simply wont make a difference ...
<pitti> mdz: I don't understand why sudo -t command without a password discloses information
<mdz> pitti: it allows the user (or an attacker with their privileges) to query sudo
<pitti> mdz: right, but not unnoticed
<mjg59> mdz: Unless the default behaviour of sudo -t failing is identical to the default behaviour of attempting to execute a command without privileges (in terms of admin notification), I think that's incorrect
<mdz> pitti: the information is still leaked, we just record the fact that it was leaked
<mjg59> When was this -t behaviour changed?
<mdz> dapper
<mjg59> Right. So we can revert it.
<mjg59> mdz: It's the sort of thing that will get mentioned on bugtraq
<mdz> if we can't do this without unacceptable tradeoffs in robustness or security, we should consider not doing it
<mdz> mjg59: I do not fear bugtraq
<pitti> mdz: right
<mjg59> mdz: I don't fear bugtraq. I fear negative PR associated with "Ubuntu change security tool default behaviour to one that leaks more information"
<mdz> I believe it was also mentioned on bugtraq that we grant sudo privileges rather than using a root password
<amu> moin
<mdz> the world moved on
<ajmitch_> hi amu
<ogra> hey amu
<pitti> ok, then let's ignore the custom sudoers case and just check for admin membership
<ogra> yeah
<mdz> pitti: that leaves us back to dealing with warty upgrades
<pitti> the workaround is really evil, but it seems that sudo solution is evil, too
<ogra> for warty upgraded systems the menu will just go on looking like before ...
<mjg59> mdz: If sudo -t continues to log, then that's going to be a *lot* of log entries for terminal server-type installs
<mdz> and hoary, in fact, no? didn't we change to group admin in breezy?
<mjg59> And if it doesn't log, it's a security pain
<ogra> i dont think thats bad
<mjg59> I /think/ hoary had an admin gorup
<pitti> mjg59: it should log
<mdz> mjg59: it's unacceptable to use sudo for this if it logs
<pitti> mjg59: hoary had
<mdz> mjg59: but you've said that you find it unacceptable to use sudo for this at all, already
<mdz> because we can't use sudo for the query unless we allow it to be queried without a password
<mjg59> mdz: I think it's bad to use sudo in a way that leaks information. I think it's /terrible/ to use sudo in a way that doesn't log if an unauthorised user runs it.
<mdz> I'm all for using the admin group check IFF we can find a  way to fall back gracefully for systems which never had that configuration in the first place
<pitti> mjg59: well, with the desktop file test, we would not leak any info on servers
<mdz> do we create the admin group on upgrades?  if not, we could check for its existence
<ogra> no, we dont
<pitti> we would drop -t
<pitti> and introduce --check-desktop-file, or so
<mjg59> pitti: Uhm.
<mjg59> pitti: How does that help?
<ogra> why must that be done on sudo pitti ?
<ogra> in*
<pitti> mjg59: on servers there are no .desktop files, so there is no information leak
<mdz> ogra: are you sure?  where is admin created?
<mjg59> pitti: That's not a sensible assertion
<pitti> ogra: /etc/sudoers is readable only by root
<ogra> mdz, from hoary on in the installer afaik
<mjg59> pitti: mjg59@kern:~/ > locate .desktop | grep /usr | wc 353     353   16080
<ogra> pitti, we have the info in the .desktop files, we can make gnome-menus check the group
<mjg59> mjg59@kern:~/ > wc /etc/passwd
<mjg59>   3576   8484 220748 /etc/passwd
<ogra> no need to touch sudo at all
<mjg59> pitti: So, no. Being a server does not mean that people don't run graphical sessions.
<pitti> mjg59: well, we would limit the information leak to exactly the information we need  - desktop files
<pitti> instead of arbitrary commands
<pitti> mjg59: well, if people use sudo under X, then we don't need to worry about information leaks
<mjg59> pitti: But the user then (effectively) knows that they can execute whatever is in that .desktop file
<mdz> ogra: I can't find where it's created
<pitti> mjg59: exactly
<pitti> that's the amount of sacrifice we need to do IF we want this
<ogra> mdz, i only know that its there since hoary ... for all new installs i did
<mjg59> pitti: Right. So I think it's a stupid idea in that form.
<ogra> mdz, and its not there on upgraded systems
<pitti> mjg59: it's better than sudo -t command IMHO
<mjg59> pitti: Being stabbed in the hand is better than being stabbed in the eye :)
<sistpoty> why not check in /etc/group as heuristic instead of the sudoer-file?
<pitti> *shrug*
<mdz> pitti: how about my suggestion?
<pitti> mdz: the one with not doing anything at all?
<mdz> pitti: if the admin group exists, use it to test whether to display the menu entries.  if it doesn't exist, display them all.
<pitti> mdz: that's what we have now
<ogra> mdz++
<mjg59> That works for me.
<pitti> oh, ok
<mdz> pitti: and revert the sudo change
<pitti> mdz: would work for me
<ogra> the behavior for upgraded warts just wont change ...
<mdz> I thought we created admin on upgrades, but ogra pointed out that this isn't true
<mdz> so this is a very simple solution
<pitti> for warty upgrades that's certainly fine
<pitti> people are used to the menus by now, probably
<mdz> ok, I think we've licked it
<ogra> so keep the change at gui level ? 
<mdz> that only took an hour
<pitti> mdz: that would mean to break the case when admin group is not actually used, but that's probably a small enough corner case
<ogra> together with the checks etc 
<mdz> pitti: I'm satisfied with that
<pitti> it's certainly fine for me
<mdz> ok
<mdz> DONE
<pitti> but I think it was important enough to talk about it
<mdz> DOIT
<ogra> phew
<pitti> 'k :)
<mdz> any other business?
<pitti> sleeeep
* ogra finally opens a merlot
<mdz> I would like to talk about scheduling meeting times
<mdz> but we should do that when we have everyone here
<mdz> I'll just send email to TB about it
<pitti> at the beginning of next TB?
<mjg59> Cool
<\sh> ogra: grmpf...
<mdz> workrave HATES ME
<ogra> hit it
<\sh> mdz: kill -9 ?
<mdz> meeting adjourned
<pitti> mdz: it is wonderfully silent if I just keep cklicking on 'skip' :)
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<pitti> thanks, guys
<mjg59> Night
<ogra> thanks mdz
<\sh> thx mdz
<mvo> night
<ogra> night mvo 
<zakame> night mvo 
<mvo> night ogra, zakame 
<\sh> ogra: pingeling...ubuntu-de-messe please...amu wants to come with us :)
<ogra> YAY !!!
<ogra> i have a vey dirty car and wont have the time to clean it before ... so you have to live with that :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-27
<gada>  /join #ubuntu-classroom
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<JanC> @schedule Brussels
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Brussels: 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<Lure> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<Lure> @schedule Ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-28
<rejden> ehlo
<highvoltage> helo
<opi> morning
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<rejden> I'm sorry, I can't attend today
<rejden> bbl
<looksaus> hi all, sorry I'm a bit late
<looksaus> hm, jono not here yet?
<opi> it's still one hour left :)
<n3gbz> Hi, all!the seesion is  in #ubuntu-classroom
<opi> nice
<opi> the meeting is here ;)
<opi> ;p
<looksaus> ah...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: LoCo Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<opi> hi jono
<jono> hey
* jono grabs a drink
* opi grabs a coffee (damn you, office!)
<smurf> Hello everybody
<juliux> hi smurf
<opi> hi smurf
<jono> smurf! :)
<opi> jono, can we start from my case (EmilOppelnBronikowski)? :)
<jono> shoot
<opi> jono, OK, so here it goes
<opi> jono, I'd like to quit from LoCo leader position in Polish team. I'm overloaded by my work activities and perform badly
<opi> jono, question: can I join next LoCo meeting with a New Guy that would be selected within Polish community?
<opi> jono, and they you would appoint him?
<jono> opi, I don't need to appoint him
<opi> jono, or is there a process I should follow while quitting?
<opi> jono, OK
<jono> feel free to appoint him inside the team
<opi> OK
<jono> so long as the team are happy with the new leader :)
<opi> then I'll inform you and the rest on ML
<opi> and give him all the data: planet code, ML accounts and so on
<opi> so, again, thanks for this two years -- it was fun -- but I sucks and I have to be replaced!
<opi> :-)
<jono> opi, thanks for your work :)
<opi> jono, well, it was fun
<jono> its always a shame when people have to step down due to other commitments
<opi> jono, after I'll clean up my own backyard, I'll be back
<opi> that's for sure
<jono> woo!
<jono> so does anyone else have any burning issues to discuss
<jono> I figured we could this session fairly open
<jono> particularly with the open week occupying a lot of people
<jono> who is here for the LoCo meeting?
* OgMaciel raises his hand  ;)
* dand from the RomanianTeam
* nmsa same me
<jono> right
<opi> jono, BTW: will the logs from ubuntu-classrom going to be uploaded somewhere? :)
<jono> yep, they are linked on the main Ubuntu Open Week page
<jono> ok, it may be an idea to cancel the meeting
<opi> jono, LoCos could translate some of the Good Stuff there
<jono> I think the Ubuntu Open Week has maybe overtaken it :P
<opi> jono, OK
<jono> I know a bunch of people are in there now
<opi> jono, I wish my meetings at work would go so smooth :)
<jono> hehe
<jono> seemed to go well
<dand> opi: http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
<opi> dand, thanks! :)
<jono> particularly with over 350 people in there
<nixternal> good morning!
* morgs is here but partially afk
* OgMaciel waves at nixternal 
<OgMaciel> s/at/to
* smurf is here ... mostly
<nixternal> hehe
<OgMaciel> ;)
<jono> hehe, ok lets cancel the meeting
<jono> if anyone want sto discuss anything while we are here though, do go ahead :)
<opi> jono, I'll remove my case from Wiki then
<jono> opi, ok cool
<opi> jono, BTW!
<opi> jono, I see "settings planet guide" thing
<opi> I can write small guide and give away our planetplanet template we did for planet.ubuntu-pl.org
<jono> opi, cool :)
<opi> wait, I'll add that to rememberthemilk list :)
<jono> :)
<opi> OK, done
<opi> so, see you soon
<jono> :)
<opi> and let gods give me power to kill my customers :>
<OgMaciel> well, off to the classroom to sit waaaaay in the back for me
<jono> smurf, ping"!
<jono> hehe
<popey> jono: can you think of anything we (UK Team) can do to improve what we are doing already
<popey> (hello BTW)
<popey> (I have sobered up a little) :)
<jono> popey, hehe
<jono> popey, I think keep doing what you are doing, do lots of events, have lots of campaigns
<jono> I would like to continue to see more regular meetings and strategy where possible
<popey> strategy for what?
<popey> how we deal with local business / charity etc?
<popey> how we present ubuntu?
<jono> all of the above
<popey> meetings are tricky of course
<jono> I would like to see a roadmap of things that the team want to work on
<smurf> jono: ?
<jono> smurf, are you /msg'able?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<MacSlow> Any hints when the next planned official meeting might be scheduled?
<Adri2000> MacSlow: official meeting?
<MacSlow> Adri2000, yeah... for those here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<MacSlow> that's what I meant by "official meeting"
<MacSlow> I just want to make sure I don't miss the next meeting, since I'll try to apply for ubuntu-memebership
<Adri2000> community council, I don't know, I'm also wondering when it will happen...
<dsas> MacSlow: There's not one scheduled yet.
<dsas> MacSlow: You could subscribe to the wiki page, it should be updated next time one is scheduled.
<MacSlow> dsas, anything aside this page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda) to be checked now and then?
<MacSlow> dsas, how does that work?
* MacSlow is still a nasty greenhorn regarding all those organisational ubuntu-things
<dsas> MacSlow: There should be a "Subscribe" link at the top, you get emailed everytime the page changes.
<MacSlow> ok thx
<dsas> MacSlow: That page is the best way, the other thing to do is subscribe to the fridge iCal feed.
<tonyyarusso> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<tonyyarusso> Slim pickin's
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-29
<maccabeus> anybody out there?
<Burgundavia> yes, but this isn't a help channel
<Burgundavia> 5 bugs reported already
<maccabeus> np -- not looking for help
<willvdl> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ |
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<juliux> hi RichEd
<RichEd> hi Kamping_Kaiser ... juliux ... life slowly getting back to normal .... for a few weeks at least
<juliux> RichEd, hehe
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, hope you get some stuff done in your normal weeks :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> i hope to catch you some time in them, just btw :)
<juliux> RichEd, i am in contact with a school inberlin, they are using edubuntu on a few pc;)
<RichEd> hope so too ... on both accounts ... looks like it may be quiet until Jan, and then 3 more countries in 1 month :(
<RichEd> juliux: great :) we'll sneak in slowly ... and become a majority :)
<juliux> RichEd, i will do so;)
<juliux> sorry but i have to go to university now:((((
<juliux> i will read the log
<RichEd> np juliux : we'll be chatting soon ... probably early next week'
* RichEd -> coffee ... back in 3
* ogra looks at the agenda ....
<ogra> meh, please dont edit the static parts of it ... there is a section for additional topics ....
<ogra> hmm, cbx33 isnt here ...
<Kamping_Kaiser> um... meeting?
<ogra> yes ?
<RichEd> ogra: do you feel up to driving the meeting ?
<ogra> i'm fine driving the tech issues
<RichEd> okie ...
<RichEd> ready when you are :)
<ogra> since i dont have much to say yet ... edubuntu-desktop and ltsp were moved to match feisty ... we're preparing the first milestone CD for thursday
<ogra> thats about it on the tech side ... dunno how much we can reveal public abotu the poland outcome yet ...
<ogra> (until there are definite things)
<ogra> cbx33 suggested a discussion about an edubuntu TB
<ogra> but he's not here
<Kamping_Kaiser> tb?
<willvdl> pity
<ogra> technical board
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh
<ogra> he thinks we should ahve a more democratic approach for leading development ...
<willvdl> I think it's a nice idea
<ogra> while i agree i think its a bit early for that
<willvdl> will help to pull in more developers
<ogra> we dont have many devs yet, so there is no real benefit in managing teams etc
<ogra> the team is only a handfull ...
<ogra> apart from that i think we will need such a structure at some point ...
<willvdl> see your point
<ogra> but currently it looks to me that it would generate useless extra work with more meetings etc without weighting out the benefit we'll have from it
<willvdl> ogra, what happens with the milestoe CD
<ogra> apart from that we discuss thech issues in the meeting here and now, that should be enough until we have a crowd of devs that becomes hard to manage ...
<ogra> willvdl, ?? can you be more specific ?
<rodarvus> imho, it is nice from a philosofical PoV, but mostly bureaucracy at this moment (as ogra said, the team is still quite small to have a TB)
<willvdl> just wondering if it's not really early for one?
<ogra> willvdl, well, the release schedule is our rule ;)
<ogra> actually its important to start early with the milestones to see the breakage ;)
<willvdl> is it basically edgy with whatever feisty inclusions there are present in it
<Mithrandir> willvdl: yes.
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
<Mithrandir> new installer, though.
<willvdl> ah.
<Mithrandir> as ogra says; if we don't start off doing milestones early we get to play a month of catch-up, which leads to the milestone freeze lasting a week which makes people angry at me which makes me sad.
<ogra> it wont have the two CD spilt or anything yet ... or any nifty stuff ...
<Mithrandir> and since I don't like to be sad and developers don't like to be angry, we do frequent milestones instead.
<ogra> Mithrandir, i ove you for the freezes :)
<willvdl> no problem with the schedule, just curious what would be in it
<ogra> its a snapshot from the current archive ... stabilized for installability
<ogra> (which is what the freeze is for)
<Mithrandir> that's what all the milestones are, really.
<ogra> right
<ogra> RichEd, any additions to the tech side of life ?
<RichEd> not too much ... just that we are all looking forward to feisty features :)
<ogra> yeah :)
<RichEd> People are impressed with the directory sign-on & fat client ...
<Kamping_Kaiser> fat clietn would rock
<ogra> i'm already poking around in the fat client area since yesterday ...
<RichEd> have you explained to the people here the main new features ? or have they all seen them on the wiki ?
<willvdl> chatted last week about them
<ogra> but we'll need the auth-server in place first, moquist was doing a lot with it already, i'll have to check the code
<RichEd> fat client takes us into the realms of "education enterprise deployment" ... manage thousands of w/s from one master config.
<ogra> edubuntu-network-auth-client and edubuntu-network-auth-server are the two most impotrant ones
<RichEd> Which means we will start pushing the buttons of decision makers, and not just local school Admins.
<ogra> then we have ltsp-fat-clients and edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound
<willvdl> ogra, how much work is that (he asks naively)
<willvdl> auth-serv that is
<ogra> the auth server is already implemented by moquist .. its majorly translating his scripts into sane package defaults for existing packages
<ogra> he uses it with ubuntu at his schools
<willvdl> cool
<ogra> i hope to be done with the initial implementation before end of the year, fat-clients are easy and almost ready and should just afll into place then
<ogra> the sound architecture will be a bit more since we need to teach pulse to ignore certain autoconfig options, but shouldnt be hard either
<ogra> i expect that to be done before the distro sprint
<willvdl> nice
<ogra> ltsp-management-gui and student-control-panel-upgrade are real development efforts, they will take their time
<ogra> the ltsp-persistent-home spec is already implemented by sbalneav, just not committed to the packages yet
<Kamping_Kaiser> looks like lots is going on
<ogra> well, and local-apps seems not to happen in ubuntu directly, but i know sbalneav plans the for upstream ltsp, so we'll just inherit it
<willvdl> I'm really interested in the SCP and LTSP-gui
<ogra> (the spec isnt approved yet)
<willvdl> yeah
<ogra> yeah, SCP will rock
<willvdl> it will make such a difference
<ogra> but we'll have to rename both, in an agreement with jammcq (ltsp upstream) we'll call them "thin-client-manager" (SCP) and "thin-client-configurator" (ltsp-manager)
<ogra> ltsp wants to get rid of the ltsp branding in all apps
<willvdl> thin-client-manager could be a bit misleading
<ogra> well, actually it would be thin-client-session-manager
<willvdl> as a name
<ogra> but thats a bit long
<willvdl> tcsm then :)
<willvdl> "manager" might create the wrong expectation
<ogra> the idea is to leave out complicated words without meaning ... my mother wouldnt know about "session"
<ogra> well, yu manage thin-client connections
<ogra> *you
<ogra> while with the other tool you configure thin-client connections
<willvdl> it's probably a moot point, but "manager" might mean that you manage the thin-client itself
<ogra> well, you will probably be able to at some point ;)
<willvdl> as in configure, etc
<ogra> i.e. shut down the clients....
<ogra> or reboot them ... or make changes on the fly
<willvdl> hmm, in that case
<willvdl> no objections then :)
<ogra> but suggestions for better names are always welcome indeed :)
<ogra> its just important the the "ltsp" goes away and has something more descriptive
<ogra> which was the reason for "thin-client"
<willvdl> what if it goes fat-client too?
<ogra> it wont
<willvdl> ltsp-fat-client?
<ogra> fat clients will have their own mechanism, since they are totally different underneath ... you will rather have a "golden workstation" where you make all the changes to the system like to any other ubuntu system
<willvdl> thinking purely of namespace...
<ogra> they will then be picked up by the other fat clients
<ogra> oh, right ... thats a ...
<ogra> netbooted-workstation then ;)
<ogra> fat-client is a bad term anyway
<willvdl> cool. I just get the feeling that "thin-client"  changes definition somewhat every now and then
<ogra> a thin client is a diskless device that runs the display and in/output for a session running on the server
<Kamping_Kaiser> thin clients can do local processing as well cant tehy? otehrwise they are a terminal...?
<willvdl> some thin-clients have disks or flash-ram
<ogra> right
<ogra> but still thats the official definition we use for a thin client ...
<willvdl> I can understand the need for dropping "terminal" though
<willvdl> ambiguous that one is
<willvdl> anyhoo, it's an ltsp decision that one
<ogra> right
<ogra> thin-client is something users can imagine ... ltsp isnt
<ogra> thats the main reason
<ogra> we'll very likely switch to ubuntu-thin-client-server from ltsp-server at some point as well
<ogra> ok, if there are no other tech issues i'd say we should move on
<willvdl> yeah, we hammered that one down :)
<RichEd> next topic: Technical Documentation
<ogra> and i'd like to postpone further discussion about the TB issue until more devs are present ...
<willvdl> woot
<ogra> (i.e. next meeting)
<willvdl> or at least cbx33 :)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, Laser would also be nice
<willvdl> pity cbx33 and LaserJock aren't here
<willvdl> anyhoo, I've been looking hard into docs recently
<ogra> yay
<willvdl> which includes marketing on some levels too
<willvdl> and have scratchpad (https://wiki.edubuntu.org/WillVanDerLeij) which will find a logical home soon
<willvdl> Firstly though, we need to get into the SVN repo
<willvdl> and so doing integrate more into Ubuntu Doc Proj
<ogra> thin-client-config and getting-started both are dapper oriented and need updates
<willvdl> ogra, which brings me to versions...
<willvdl> We need 6.06 versions obviously
<willvdl> and 6.10 versions
<willvdl> while contributing to 7.04
<ogra> the pages sbalneav wrote for the handbook are fine for ltsp documentation
<ogra> (6.10 and 7.04)
<RichEd> willvdl: i spoke to newz2000 about how we tag info to apply to a release version ....
<ogra> gettingstarted and thinclientconfig are fine for 6.06
<RichEd> we need to get some sort of systematic approach ... some info does not apply to all releases, and some does
<RichEd> wiki & wwww
<willvdl> ogra, you're referring to help.u.c?
<ogra> right, there are changes during development ... added features or changed ones
<willvdl> RichEd, that's my 3rd point :)
<RichEd> :)
<ogra> willvdl, nope, to the handbook parts in svn
<willvdl> ogra, cool. doc.u.c only refers to trunk so it is not really that helpful
<RichEd> note that we need a back-review of existing ... and then a policy for tagging new docs (by the author at time of creation hopefully)
<ogra> willvdl, ask sbalneav where they are exactly ... even if the handboook isnt ready his ltsp pieces will work standalone
<willvdl> RichEd and tagging contributions to docs
<willvdl> will do
<willvdl> My point is we need official versions for "About"
<willvdl> Do we need a "Desktop Guide" like K/Ubuntu?
<willvdl> (looking at help.u.c)
<ogra> nope
<ogra> we need guides for the added value
<ogra> but not for the desktop itself ...
<willvdl> We use apps from both, so we would refer to the other Desktop Guides
<ogra> having the original ubutu docs for server and desktop should be fine ... we should wrap a nice css around them to rebrand and add extra docs for the changes
<willvdl> our "Desktop Guide" would then be only our added value...
<ogra> nope, it would be a combo
<ogra> s we can benefit from the exisiting docs
<willvdl> sorry bit confused...
<willvdl> we need to refer to the K/Ubuntu desktop guides somewhere
<ogra> nope
<willvdl> or auto-capture their info?
<ogra> we will include the ubuntu server/desktop guide with a different branding and theme so they match edubuntu
<ogra> and add chapters for the added value
<willvdl> and where would the added chapters live?
<ogra> during packaging the ubuntu docs will be rebranded and merged with our extra docs ...
<ogra> everything will end up in the edubuntu-docs package which already exists as an empty package ...
<willvdl> point being there would still be an Edubuntu Desktop Guide?
<ogra> yes, it would be the merged doc
<willvdl> with our added chapters and the merged sections from Ubuntu
<willvdl> Excellent
<ogra> right
<willvdl> sorry
<ogra> thats what i was planning ...
<willvdl> lawnmowers outside my window
<ogra> so we only need to maintain the additions
<ogra> rebranding and themeing shoud happen automatically
<ogra> (and merging)
<willvdl> groovy
<willvdl> yay docbook + svn
<willvdl> So we have our "standard" stuff and the Handbook
<ogra> right
<willvdl> The Handbook will need versioning
<ogra> first it will need finishing :P
<willvdl> :)
<willvdl> I'm curious about the School Advocacy doc
<willvdl> Would that not logically become the "About Edubuntu" doc?
<ogra> hedgemage and pygi both disappeared somehow ...
<ogra> we'll need a new handbook team i suspect
<ogra> (oh, and jerome as well)
<willvdl> ogra, got a plan brewing :P
<willvdl> it is cunning I hope
<RichEd> :( that's quite a few "pillars" we've lost
<ogra> currently sbalneav is the only active handbook writer
<willvdl> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<ogra> well, hedgemage wanted to return in the dev area at some point
<willvdl> ^^^ is the About doc for ubuntu
<ogra> willvdl, there is also an about-edubuntu somewhere
<ogra> jerome created it long ago
<willvdl> In the wiki?
<ogra> nope, in the edubuntu section of the svn somewhere
<willvdl> oh. it's not on help.u.c
<ogra> i knoe its in svn since breezy or dapper
<ogra> *know
<willvdl> either way, my question is more along the lines of what to do with ESA doc
<willvdl> It is essentially an "About" doc
<ogra> isnt it a bit big for "about" ?
* ogra hasnt see it since some time, but imagines its to big
<RichEd> willvdl: we need to make specific versions ... not the one size fits all
<willvdl> well it does delve into individual packages
<willvdl> programmes rather
<RichEd> people in Edulinuix agreed that a decision maker needs different info to a user / admin
<RichEd> *Edulinux
<willvdl> OK, "About" would then be a high level look at what is possible
<willvdl> and ESA would be a middle level look at what is in edubuntu and what it can do for you
<willvdl> RichEd, just remember these are official docs rather than promotional or sales materials
<RichEd> we could have an overview for 4 sections : User, Teacher, Admin, Decision Maker
<RichEd> = bullet points
<RichEd> and then a detailed version of each ?
<willvdl> RichEd but in which doc do you want such info?
<RichEd> not sure what you mean ... I take it we are talking about Edubuntu Schools Advocacy ?
<RichEd> So something like:
<RichEd> #1 ESA - Overview
<RichEd> #2 ESA - For Users
<RichEd> #3 ESA - For Teachers
<RichEd> etc ?
<willvdl> so #1 is like the About Ubuntu doc
<RichEd> Yep ... but more for spurring someone to use it, not for someone who has just installed it
<willvdl> that's what About docs are for
<RichEd> okay
<willvdl> OK
<willvdl> I'll look into splitting up docs for different audiences
<willvdl> and how to manage the common info
<willvdl> The Handbook audience is then who specifically?
<ogra> admins, teachers, users
<willvdl> or is it more like the Ubuntu Book, good for everyone
<RichEd> Hand Book is all Hands On people
<ogra> (currently rather admins and administrating teachers afaik)
<ogra> (but target should be all three)
<willvdl> So again, we could (if clever about it) intelligently merge and copy Handbook info into other docs
<RichEd> It may break in the long term into: Handbook - for Admin / Handbook for Teachers Users
<ogra> right
<RichEd> (Admins spend more time on confirm, Users on applications)
<willvdl> That would be a packaging thing again
<RichEd> *config
<Kamping_Kaiser> gnight all
<willvdl> Kamping_Kaiser, gnight
<RichEd> night Kamping_Kaiser :) chat soon
<ogra> gnight Kamping_Kaiser
<Kamping_Kaiser> see you tehn RichEd :)
<willvdl> The trick is to drive contributions to all supported versions of the docs...
<ogra> well, released versions of the software wont change much
<willvdl> agreed, but still need to finish some docs
<ogra> so there is no real need for updates on the tech front (beyond enhancements)
<willvdl> or "known bug" fixes, errata updates etc
<willvdl> Moving onto the wiki and info in it?
* highvoltage is here!!!
<ogra> right, then ou just need to provide one url for all versions
<willvdl> woot, just in time!
<RichEd> hey highvoltage :)
<willvdl> ogra, help.u.c
<ogra> so you can have perversion subpages on the wiki
<ogra> ouch
<ogra> that should have been per-version
<highvoltage> hi RichEd, sorry, was reading scrollback
<ogra> i'm no friend of h.u.c at all ...
<RichEd> np
<ogra> but if its unavoidable then h.u.c
<willvdl> ogra, it does host the stable docs...
<highvoltage> ogra: heh, I was just telling willvdl about that earlier
<willvdl> making it much easier to maintain then the wiki
<ogra> willvdl, yeah, and makes quick support impossible if you have the wiki urls stored ...
<willvdl> ah, see what you mean
<ogra> the delay through the forwarding isnt really helpful :)
<willvdl> must be a clever way round that
<ogra> yes, only store the new urls ... but the you miss out the new wiki docs
<willvdl> well, what are the new wiki docs in this case?
<ogra> its something that should be overthought again by a good documentation person imho
<willvdl> we'll soo what the doc team has to say
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowtoWriteLTSP5Plugins would be something new
<ogra> it should stay on the wiki so people can change it easily and contribute to it
<willvdl> OK, or even the capturing of forum info into community doc wiki
<willvdl> the ubuntu doc team has a process around that. need to study in detail
<RichEd> willvdl: pips1 and i were talking about forum data, and moving good info into wiki
<ogra> that will be a lot of work, you will need reviewers
<RichEd> we will work on some sort of procedure, because this is a good place for a new community volunteer to help
<willvdl> RichEd, have a look at the Doc Proj, they have a page up on how they plan to do that
<willvdl> ogra, I guess I'm only really worried about getting rid of deprecated or outdated wiki pages
<RichEd> Great. I mean there are people who are keen to help, but say "I am not that technical" ... so they can at least spot a solution, and tidy the thread into a doc as a way to start.
<ogra> no
<RichEd> ??
<jsgotangco> hey
<ogra> thats a typical prob with the forums ...
<RichEd> hey jsgotangco
<RichEd> explain ogra ?
<willvdl> jsgotangco, hey
* willvdl thinks he sees where ogra is going
<ogra> instead of filing bugs and helping in solving them there are workarounds provided in a forum thread instead of getting people to use maolne
<ogra> so we'll use valuable info, as well as the users probably loose the advised way to work around a bug
<RichEd> ogra: I see that there would be moderators in between ...
<ogra> technical probs should all be handled via bugs (even workarounds for them)
<ogra> who would be that ? you need a decent technical background
<willvdl> ogra, I guess that is the key probelm in oderating a forum (or even a list)
<ogra> currently i rather see all tech people as devs than as reviewers ;)
<RichEd> So if a user problem crops up in the forum, and some communtiy person explains a solution to a user, then IF it is a good solution and approved, then we make it a wiki page. And then the thread on the forums says: See wiki link for approved solution.
<ogra> that still keeps the bug away from the developers attention, so it might never be fixed
* willvdl nods
<ogra> bugs should really all go into the bugtracker and be discussed there
<RichEd> That should be part of the approval process. File bug.
<willvdl> RichEd, it does also depend on what is being fixed
<ogra> right ;)
<RichEd> Not necesaerily a fix, it could just be advice on how to use something that is working !
<ogra> we have many open bugs but we also have many bad advises to work around them ;)
<RichEd> *neccessarily
<willvdl> It's just a process question really. Will check with Doc Proj about this
<ogra> in malone you usually have at least one responsible person for development or packaging subscribed
<RichEd> If we have the same user question popping up often in forums or #edubuntu, then even if we have documented help, that means people are not finding it easily. Hence move to a FAQ page with more visibility.
<ogra> ++
<RichEd> That's the sort of thinking I mean ... not Fixing Bugs :)
<willvdl> RichEd, or LaunchPad Answers
<RichEd> Yep, as long as it is easy to find for the newbie ! and an unregistered nebie as wel !
<RichEd> *newbie
<ogra> FAQ is always good ...
<willvdl> any moderated knowledge base is good
<juliux> re
<ogra> right, despite the fact that you need knoledgeable moderators to have a good quality
<willvdl> but there is still a great need for wikis and the like...as ogra said, helps in devel
<willvdl> collaboration rather
<ogra> and thats wheer we're lacking atm at least on the tech side ...
<willvdl> ogra, which sections specifically?
<ogra> every dev should do development as first prio atm ... we'll need the bridge people who understand the tech issues but are no coders
<willvdl> meaning, ubuntu related stuff can be handled by the larger ubunut community
<willvdl> but the edubuntu specific stuff has been mainly around LTSP
<RichEd> as we expand out community and audience, we shold have more people at various levels ... depending in the skill of the volunteer, we need to find a good fit for them to feel productive. they can always advance towards dev as their confidence and skills levels grow.
<juliux> dont forget for some people think there english is to bad to write bugreports
<ogra> it will be mainy around educational software and enterprise techniques in the future
<ogra> *mainly
<RichEd> e.g for Edulinux, ther will be others helping with Training Manuals ... that can be harnessed for our wiki pages.
<RichEd> *there
<ogra> willvdl, LTSP will only be one small aspect in the future ...
<willvdl> the future, sure, but for now...
<ogra> the two CD release opens a ton of new opporunities
<ogra> well, i'm taking about feisty
<willvdl> ogra, agreed
<willvdl> see where this is going
<willvdl> anyhoo, back to the wiki... :)
<ogra> we'll target more than the classroom, feisty will be a big chnge in all areas
* RichEd nods
<ogra> so we should be prepared for that on the doc side
<ogra> especially if we dont ship the second CD it will need a good amount of extra docs here
<willvdl> agreed
<willvdl> Priority is to get DApper 100% up-t-date
<ogra> ugh
<willvdl> The wiki needs housekeeping though
<willvdl> I get what ogra says about linking from the wiki to "official" doc sections
<ogra> dapper misses a lot of features and automatisms  ... thats a huge effort
<ogra> (LTSP wise)
<willvdl> we also need to structure the wiki around the different versions better
<willvdl> at the moment one is not always quite sure which version a specific section is referring to
* willvdl remembers RichEd mention tagging
<RichEd> willvdl: re that structure comment, matt nuzum will give us the "next version of his www structure" soon ... we'll see how we can work with that
<willvdl> great.
<RichEd> he is revising the www.ubuntu and wiki.ubuntu ... and what CMS to use
<RichEd> The requirement we have = "which version" is broader as we get into *ubuntu and "which variant"
<RichEd> Not only for us in education, but *buntu support in general for Matt
<willvdl> cool
<willvdl> I'll keep specifics around sections and chapters and docs in a sidebar
<willvdl> Lastly, on docs:
<willvdl> just want ot get our meeting logs etc. tracked with/like the other teams
<highvoltage> gtg, sorry will catch up on logs later
<willvdl> seems there is some recent work/devel going on there
<RichEd> bye highvoltage
<willvdl> ciao boet
<highvoltage> bye RichEd and willvdl
<willvdl> and still need to look into marketing (docs, materials, plans etc)
<RichEd> willvdl: good point ... this is an area we should formalise ... especially actions assigned during meetings
<willvdl> time has not allowed that and Burgundavia wants to chat first too
<RichEd> okie ... we're getting close to time ... so any point in discussing : Art Work
<RichEd> (cbx33 is not here)
<jsgotangco> i just want to take this chance
<jsgotangco> while im here
<jsgotangco> that i am resigning my position in the council
<willvdl> urk
* willvdl hopes only temporarily
<jsgotangco> well i cannot say, my work has eaten up any time i can give for edubuntu
<ogra> ouch
<RichEd> :(
<juliux> :(
<ogra> will be very very hard to find someone to take that place :(
<jsgotangco> im sorry i thought it was possible to balance things out but a lot of stuff happened in such a short time
<RichEd> jsgotangco: is it good for you at least ? productive ? enjoyable ?
<jsgotangco> well i cannot say its enjoyable at the moment
<jsgotangco> but i think its my chance now to have at least a stable job
* jsgotangco is not getting any younger in the local workforce here
<willvdl> jsgotangco ++ cheer cheer
<willvdl> seriously, all the best in where ever it takes you
* RichEd agrees and thanks jsgotangco for his past work :)
<ogra> ++
<jsgotangco> well all i can say that being part of the project did open up avenues for me, unexpectedly, although I did have bigger aspirations but didn't happen
<willvdl> RichEd, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ausimage  <-- new developments
<RichEd> jsgotangco: time will tell ... our paths are sure to be be intertwined
<jsgotangco> and ive seen edubuntu start from a small bof in UDU
<RichEd> thanks willvdl
<willvdl> jsgotangco, your name is everywhere in edubuntu
<RichEd> we're almost at end of meeting time ... so just a short comment from me before we wrap
<jsgotangco> well i just want to be honest now that i actually moved my computers to another OS except one pc i use everyday and its still runing edubuntu
<jsgotangco> and i'll still watch the project and be involved when i can
<willvdl> :)
<RichEd> pips1 and I spent 2 days at UDS looking at structure for our (user and teacher) community site ... I will document this into a wiki page during the next week or so.
<RichEd> We are open to suggestion and comments, so once i have the wiki page up, we can discuss in this meeting, or convene antother for those who are interested.
<jsgotangco> and the project i am involved with at work will still be based in edubuntu so i will still be pretty much in the loop whenever possible
<RichEd> Main goals of the community site:
<RichEd> #1 make existing users happier
<RichEd> #2 recruit more users
<RichEd> #3 recruit more volunteers
<RichEd> ... that's all I wanted to say for today.
<willvdl> cool. look forward to it
<ogra> ++ for #3
<willvdl> #4 clone some ogras
<ogra> that should be covered by #3 ;)
<willvdl> (we got some hair samples at UDS)
<ogra> haha
<willvdl> It was California after all
<RichEd> willvdl: we'd need to clone them fully grown !
<willvdl> groth hormone
<willvdl> growth rather
<RichEd> willvdl: that sounded like a litp: did you hear that "groth hormone" :)
<RichEd> *lithp
<RichEd> ogra you okay to wrap up ?
<RichEd> anthing else ?
<willvdl> gwoth howmoan
<ogra> nothing from my side
<jsgotangco> thanks everyone
<ogra> thanks :)
<RichEd> okay thanks all ... sorry we were so scarce with the conferences, but back at home now
<willvdl> thanks all, been very helpful for me!
<RichEd> so we'll see you next week in December ... same place 12 hours later in the day
<RichEd> going once
<RichEd> going twice ...
* RichEd looks around ....
<willvdl> ding ding ding
* ogra ducks
<RichEd> Done. Thanks. Bye.
<ogra> bye :)
<willvdl> ciao
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ |
<lguerra> @schedule bogota
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Bogota:
<cbx33> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC:
<cbx33> soemthing broken?
<tonyyarusso> cbx33: I don't think so.
<tonyyarusso> To my knowledge there are no meetings scheduled.
<cbx33> it's wednesday
<cbx33> pah it's already gone
<cbx33> taht's why it's not showing up
<tonyyarusso> yep
<tonyyarusso> the bot should have a better message than null though
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: ping
<Spec> why? :-/
<tonyyarusso> Just to be less confusing I'd think
<tonyyarusso> Something like Schedule for Etc/UTC: No meetings scheduled
<Adri2000> anyway there is a devel meeting tomorrow :p
<tonyyarusso> Adri2000: Want to contact the authorities to get it on the list?
<Adri2000> it would be better :)
<Adri2000> but I don't know who are the authorities for that
<Adri2000> fridge people?
<tonyyarusso> I believe that's correct
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Nov 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<gnomefreak> the bot should have next meeting (if its reading off the fridge correctly) next meeting is devel 2100 on 30th
<gnomefreak> @now new_tork
<gnomefreak> @now new_york
<Ubugtu> Current time in America/New_York: November 29 2006, 12:34:42 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 1 day
<tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Good now.
<gnomefreak> it needed to update
<tonyyarusso> Oh - scheduled syncing?
<gnomefreak> yes
<tonyyarusso> Gotcha
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Nov 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Adri2000> still no CC :/
<tonyyarusso> not yet
<tonyyarusso> I really wish those were scheduled so that the next one was listed by the end of each meeting if not before.
* tonyyarusso is too used to scouts & venture, where we make annual plans
<gnomefreak> the issue we ran into was UDS thats why its taken so long
<Adri2000> usually it's every 2 weeks I believe, but the last one was 6 weeks ago
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, UDS plus restructuring of who's on the CC I think
<gnomefreak> i think its at the point we know who the new members are just waiting for the finishing touches. they were supposed to vote on the new members at UDS
<tonyyarusso> Oh
<tonyyarusso> I'm hoping to add myself to the list, but only if I can make the time, which we don't know yet.
<gnomefreak> i know we lost one CC memeber but i heard we lost a second also
<tonyyarusso> How come?
<gnomefreak> time was up i think
<tonyyarusso> ah
<gnomefreak> afaik the CC members are also on timed seats as membership is
<tonyyarusso> Sounds right
<tonyyarusso> hehe - it makes me nervous that Mark is /away with 12 minutes before he's up
<gnomefreak> i would ping jono when hes free and ask him whats up with the CC he should be looking into next meeting in the next week or so
<tonyyarusso> That's what he said in his previous session - will bring it up I think after he's done with his Q/A
<gnomefreak> he will make it if not on time a couple of minutes late (hes allowed to) ;)
<gnomefreak> but i dont htink hes gonna get much done this week on it due to the meetings this week  and herd1 release tomorrow
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, three minutes in or so seems to be his style, minimum.
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 30 Nov 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
<Seveas> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 30 Nov 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-30
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<tonyyarusso> okay....
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 30 Nov 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu
<tonyyarusso> Oh, it's just slow
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 01 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 23:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 21 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<mdz> good day
<dholbach> good evening :)
* fabbione yawns
<BenC> good afternoon
<kylem> good coffee
<fabbione> hmm nicotine...
<fabbione> #include <linux/crack/nicotine.h>
<fabbione> int main() {
<fabbione>   inject();
<fabbione>  exit 666;
<fabbione> }
<mdz> Syntax error near `exit'
<zul> afternoon
<BenC> not to mention including kernel headers from user space
<BenC> for shame
<cjwatson> mdz: disturbingly that implies you have such a header
<ajmitch> hi
<kylem> BenC, hehe.
<seb128> mdz: pong ;)
<fabbione> mdz: what would you expect after inject() :P
<mdz> we're missing a few people but need to get started
<heno> mdz: pong
<mdz> welcome all
<mdz> heno: you're up first
<heno> * Approved: access-gdm, braille-support, color-filters, common-at-conf, orca-laptop-support
<heno> * Drafting: multilingual-speech -- this will be taken forward by Gilles Casse from Oralux. I've also created orca-espeak as a prerequisite to this.
<heno> feisty-speakup -- Depends on involvement from the speakup community. The next week or so will tell.
<heno> * Abandoned: atspi-testing-by-default -- seb128 had issues with this and I see his point.
<heno> (not sure about the format today)
<cjwatson> atspi-testing-by-default> yeah, I wasn't all that keen either
<cjwatson> (sorry etc.)
<Simira> mdz: Tollef's here in five mins or so
<heno> yeah, I can see why
<mdz> heno: apart from atspi-*, are those targeted for feisty?
<mdz> Simira: thanks
<mdz> hmm, no
<heno> oh, I don't think so. Need to look at how LP does that
<mdz> heno: ok, please see that the ones which should be on the roadmap are targeted.  the link is labeled 'set release goal' I think
<heno> I'll do that now, thanks
<mdz> heno: are there assignees for all of those?
<heno> all except the feisty speakup one
<heno> which is still uncertain
<heno> I'm assignee for most of them
<mdz> ok; if you can find someone who will aim for feisty, then go ahead and target it, otherwise leave it off
<cjwatson> ("Propose as goal"
<cjwatson> )
<heno> right
<mdz> heno: thanks
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> feisty-toolchain (approved): fixed a couple of minor glibc things.
<fabbione> sparc64-installer (approved): not started. Waiting Herd 1 to settle before starting on it.
<fabbione> spart64-niagara-ssl-accelerator (approved): wrote down some pseudo code and read a few times the hw specs to understand how it is supposed to work. This should be object of real coding during sparc sprint in Seattle.
<fabbione> integrity-check (approved): fixed the infrastructure to go https://. waiting Herd 1 and d-i merge before moving it in main/cd.
<fabbione> ubuntu-feisty-ha-cluster (approved): extremely good progress here. Received even emails from IBM India that confused us as upstream. OCFS2 has been updated and needs testing. GFS1 has been updated to the new FS API but it's not working properly (needs fixing). GFS2 has been updated and it's working almost ok. It fixes a bunch of problems from edgy but it seems i am still one of the few that can crash it :)
<fabbione> sparc64-64bit-apps and sparc64-desktop: left to the community. no progress.
<fabbione> Done
<fabbione>  * SRU for lvm2 completed.
<fabbione>  * working on SRU for mdadm in edgy (almost ready).
<mdz> fabbione: what are the dates for the sprint again?
<cjwatson> fabbione: d-i merge is done
<fabbione> mdz: one sec...
<fabbione> mdz: 16 -> 23 Dec.
<mdz> ok
<fabbione> cjwatson: yes i saw it but it was too late today to start :)
<cjwatson> right, just saying you aren't waiting for it any more :-)
<cjwatson> got to defend my honour etc.
<fabbione> mdz: 16 is fly out so nothing will happen other than sitting 12 hours on a plane ;)
<fabbione> cjwatson: your honour is untouchable d-i god
<mdz> what could be more fun?
<mdz> fabbione: how does sparc look for herd 1?
<fabbione> mdz: sex?
<fabbione> mdz: i am running it on both my machines
<mdz> fabbione: I mean installability
<fabbione> mdz: i only need to test the installer tomorrow
<cjwatson> sparc d-i FTBFS
<cjwatson> I have a fix in hand
<cjwatson> I'll upload it soonish so fabio can test
<fabbione> mdz: i think it's blocked on d-i :P
<cjwatson> (but Mithrandir had said he didn't care so I was skipping it in favour of more urgent things)
<mdz> ok, we'll get a full herd 1 update from Mithrandir a bit later
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> Done:
<dholbach>  * merges
<dholbach>  * started bug mailbox cleaning *whine*
<dholbach>  * gnome updates
<dholbach> Todo:
<dholbach>  * implement top prio art builder goals
<dholbach>  * more bug cleaning
<dholbach>  * GNOME 2.17.3
<dholbach>  * more merging
<dholbach> Specs:
<dholbach>  * art-builder-improvements: approved, started.
<dholbach>  * feisty-telepathy: approved, started: landell and telepathy-wilde still need packaging.
<dholbach>  * code-review: pending approval, needs one TB sign-off.
<dholbach>  * motu: pending approval, needs one TB sign-off.
<dholbach> 
<mdz> dholbach: is the art team actively using the art-builder repo now?
<dholbach> mdz: no, they're not - Troy mailed on how to use bzr and I gave some instructions.
<mdz> dholbach: please set me as approver on those TB specs so that I get email; I'll give them a second pass
<dholbach> ok - thank you
<mdz> dholbach: is there a wiki page for them which explains how to use it?
<dholbach> mdz: no not yet, I'll do that.
<dholbach> mdz: (done, set the approver of the specs)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks dholbach
<mdz> kylem: next
<kylem> done:
<kylem>  * ubuntu-dapper-security.git: up to date with kernel-sec svn
<kylem>  * ubuntu-edgy-security.git: up to date with kernel-sec svn
<kylem>  * ubuntu-{dapper,edgy}-updates.git: enable bnx2 in nic-modules
<kylem>  * backported squashfs patch for dapper-security.git
<kylem>  * backported ocfs2 patches for dapper-security.git
<kylem>  * backported sky2 v1.9 for edgy-updates.git for #68338
<kylem>  * fixed up hdaps for edgy-updates.git
<kylem>  * looked into msi implications for #73815
<kylem>  * trawled stable trees for patches
<kylem>  * debugged why i can't push to rookery
<kylem> todo:
<kylem>  * get the 4 trees uploaded
<kylem>  * look into getting git updated so i can push to rookery
<fabbione> kylem: we will need ocfs2 also in edgy
<Mithrandir> (pong)
<kylem> fabbione, it's fixed in edgy, but i didn't have to do any work just apply it. in dapper i had to make sure it still worked because i had to hand apply.
<fabbione> kylem: ah ok
<fabbione> thanks
<kylem> np
<mdz> kylem: you're all set up with the access you need to do your work now, yes?
<kylem> mdz, yup
<mdz> kylem: ok, thanks
<mdz> BenC: next
<cjwatson> kylem: is bnx2 urgent? if so we need a d-i update
<BenC> driver-device-manager: Approved, work in progress.
<BenC> driver-backports: Pending Approval (just finished this last minute spec this morning).
<BenC> Kernel work this past week:
<BenC> * Lowlatency kernel/lrm added. Joy to the world.
<BenC> * 2.6.19 released, our tree is moving on with 2.6.20 as planned.
<BenC> * Merged some ubuntu kernel patches upstream.
<BenC> Kernel work for next week:
<BenC> * Initial 2.6.20 patches rolling into upstream. Will get out a new kernel based on this ASAP.
<BenC> * Moving all linux-source-2.6.19 lp bugs to linux-source-2.6.20 after this upload. All traces of 2.6.19 will disappear.
<BenC> * Revamp of the kernel-team git repository to enable better security patch handling (embargoed patches, etc), and better collaboration between myself and Kyle.
<cjwatson> well, er, maybe, depending on the installation method
<kylem> cjwatson, well, i'm sure elmo would appreciate it. :)
<cjwatson> kylem: check with me tomorrow?
<mdz> BenC: I'll have a look at driver-backports after the meeting
<zul> heh dont forget me in the kernel-team git repository ;)
<BenC> zul: likely it will be on a canonical machine, so might not get that
<mdz> BenC: any kernel blockers for herd 1?
<BenC> mdz: No, kernel is uploaded and stable for herd-1
<mdz> and d-i up to date with it?
<BenC> lrm and linux-meta synced as well
<BenC> cjwatson: ^^
<cjwatson> mdz: yes
<cjwatson> done today
<mdz> ok, thanks BenC
<BenC> we have a few udeb quirks to work out, but colin says herd-1 is good
<kylem> cjwatson, https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/73647 <- bnx2.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73647 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Broadcom NetXtreme II BCM5708 not detected on install" [Undecided,Fix committed] 
<mdz> mvo: next
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - specs
<mvo> - merges
<mvo> - work on the auto-dist-upgrade testing (better control scipt, most-of-main install profile
<mvo> - release-upgrader for edgy->feisty uploaded
<mvo> - prototype/experiments for apt mirror method
<mvo> - SRU xorg uploaded to edgy-updates
<mvo> Will do:
<cjwatson> BenC: well, it builds anyway - haven't *tested* yet
<mvo> - merges
<mvo> - LSB face-to-face meeting berlin
<mvo> Feisty specs approved:
<mvo> - auto-dist-upgrade-testing, binary-driver-education, common-customizations, dist-upgrader-fixes, enabling-additional-components,   dynamic-mirror-decisions,   server-upgrade-tool, apt-sha256
<mdz> mvo: auto-dist-upgrade-testisg doesn't seem to be targeted?
<mdz> please target it to feisty
<mvo> mdz: oh, I fix that
<mdz> mvo: is the dist-upgrader ready for herd 1 testing?
<mvo> mdz: yes, it should be fine
<mdz> mvo: so we can include update-manager instructions in the announcement and start real world upgrade testing?
<mvo> mdz: yes, I can update the announcement in the wiki
<mdz> ok, great
<mdz> thanks mvo
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> network-roaming: not started; will have to read up on this again, it seems to have changed a bit from the bof discussion
<Mithrandir> changelog-closes-bugs: not started
<Mithrandir> misc: herd 1 fixing, getting there slowly
<Mithrandir> next week: herd 1 release, get changelog-closes-bugs done
<Mithrandir> herd 1: getting there, was blocked on d-i stuff and some bits of cdimage not being updated to know that feisty is current.  I'll roll CDs and test them tomorrow.  Bug status isn't too good, I've tried to chase people up about the "later"-targetted bugs, but not being too successful about this.  Ideas for making this happen better welcome
<cjwatson> IME "later" has been entirely snowed under by merges and getting the world working at all
<seb128> Mithrandir: when you say "next week", that's tomorrow? ;)
<cjwatson> I think first milestone may have been a bit ambitious for "later"
<mdz> cjwatson: agreed
<Mithrandir> seb128: next week is what happens from today until next distro team meeting.
<mdz> we should figure a realistic date for closing them, but it should be soon
<cjwatson> although obviously ambitious targets mean we're more likely to hit the realistic targets
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I've intentionally not chased you down due to you being ideal in too many places already.
<mdz> Mithrandir: perhaps mail -devel-announce with a summary of 'later' in concert with herd 1 and aim for herd 2
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'll do that.
<mdz> Mithrandir: do you have a date for herd 2?
<Mithrandir> mdz: hmm, I thought we put those on the release schedule, but apparently not.  I'll find some dates.
<mdz> I thought so too, but they didn't make it into the version on the wiki
<Mithrandir> dec 14th might work
<mdz> I think we said every 2-3 weeks?
<Mithrandir> yeah, but I'm on xmas vac from the 19th, and I suspect bits of the rest of the team will be starting their vacation that week too
<mdz> at any rate, yes, please add milestone dates to the schedule
<Mithrandir> I'll do that.
<mdz> Mithrandir: please make notes about the edgy->feisty bits of cdimage etc. and add them to the checklist
<Mithrandir> ReleaseProcess?
<cjwatson> I think they're already there (just DIST=feisty)
<cjwatson> but we'll check
<mdz> Mithrandir: perhaps a new page linked from there, for opening a new release
<cjwatson> hmm, no, perhaps not
<cjwatson> I should probably write that; I know the guts of it
<mdz> or on the page itself, I'm not fussed so long as they're not forgotten at the end of the  previous release
<mdz> cjwatson: please do
<mdz> thanks Mithrandir
<Mithrandir> ok, I'll do the skeleton, Colin did most of the meat of it this time around so he should fill it in.
<mdz> seb128: next
<seb128> Done:
<seb128>  * merges with Debian
<seb128>  * GNOME updates
<seb128>  * DesktopTeam talk for Ubuntu OpenWeek
<seb128>  * catching up with mails
<seb128>  * a bunch of edgy-proposed and edgy-updates updates
<seb128>  * bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128> .
<seb128> To Do:
<seb128>  * keep merges with Debian
<seb128>  * bug triage, bug triage, bug triage, bug triage, you got the idea by now :p
<seb128>  * GNOME 2.17.3
<seb128>  * get tracker uploaded
<seb128>  * updated desktop team
<seb128> .
<seb128> Specs:
<seb128>  * easy-codec-installation: approved, waiting on gstreamer upstream changes
<seb128>  * tab-consistency: pending approval, not started
<seb128>  * desktop-slab: review, that's a "small" spec, basically getting promotion for the gnome-main-menu package and maybe looking at a panel profiles switcher
<seb128> "updated desktop team" = "update wiki for desktop team"
<mdz> seb128: I'm not keeping up with so many SRUs
<cjwatson> I'm trying to do them about weekly, so tomorrow is the next round
<seb128> mdz: you only have to approve them
<seb128> think how much work it takes me filling them :p
<mdz> seb128: I need to read and understand them first :-)
<ogra> only ...
<seb128> mdz: most of mine are fairly easy patches though ;)
<mdz> seb128: we should only be doing these for critical issues, since they create work for others
<mdz> I would like to do them for trivial fixes as well, but in reality it may not be worth it
<seb128> right, I've adjusted for that
<cjwatson> seb's have been pretty good in that regard from what I've seen
<seb128> we got some not so cool bugs to edgy though due to the short cycle and the flood of bugs we didn't manage very well before edgy
<cjwatson> they've all been "oh god, we released with that?" to one extent or another
<mdz> it looks like it from the ones I've read, but as I said, I'm behind
<mdz> cjwatson: I'd like for you to take primary responsibility for those for now; perhaps you and pitti can discuss sharing it
<seb128> I should probably not have done the "libgnomeprintui has 2 strings not translatable", I noticed today, it's not worth the work
<cjwatson> mdz: ok
<mdz> it's not realistic for me at present
<seb128> but that was in the pipe before I really think about it
<cjwatson> I would like people to put more effort into writing descriptions of bug impacts
<cjwatson> (for SRUs)
<cjwatson> I've had several where that wasn't really there and I had to go back and distill one
<mdz> does that need more emphasis in the documentation?
<seb128> cjwatson: what sort of description?
<mdz> it was explicitly part of the process
<cjwatson> seb128: how the bug affects users. see the wiki page
<mdz> to describe the impact of the bug on users, justifying the update
<mdz> "this bug causes babies to be eaten"
<dholbach> or 250 duplicates in gnome bugzilla (and counting)
<mdz> right
<seb128> cjwatson: I've read the wiki page, I'm not sure if you want "what the bug is doing" or "how many people it's annoying"
* dholbach hugs seb128
<cjwatson> maybe just send out another reminder or something - I'll see what irritates me tomorrow
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<seb128> dholbach: I actually did some of those
<seb128> "upstream has over 100 dups and asked us to push the crash fix"
<cjwatson> seb128: I'd prefer its effect on end users; the latter doesn't hurt but the former is what we need to justify ourselves in the event that something goes wrong
<mdz> seb128: both; "this bug causes foo to crash for many users"
<dholbach> seb128: I know
<cjwatson> "we chose to do this because ..."
<seb128> cjwatson, mdz: ok, noted
<mdz> it's not only for the benefit of the SRU team but to remind you to think about whether the work of an update is justified before you go further
<mdz> seb128: we need to take a decision regarding beagle/tracker
<mdz> seb128: what is upstream doing?
<seb128> mdz: nothing
<mdz> neither is going to be part of gnome?
<seb128> beagle has not been proposed
<seb128> and tracker will not be accepted since it has not being deployed by any distro yet and they are not sure about it neither
<seb128> no, GNOME is pretty conservative
<mdz> seb128: have CCed you on followup re: gstreamer
<sfllaw> Can we update the SRU policy to get people to put this stuff in the Description?
<seb128> ok
<sfllaw> Reading long strings of comments is amusing, but inefficient.
<mdz> sfllaw: that's fine with me
<sfllaw> Especially for you.
<cjwatson> sfllaw: please go ahead
<seb128> mdz: why do we need to decide now for beagle or tracker, feature freeze is not good?
<seb128> did you read my reply to your mail?
<mdz> seb128: do you expect things to become clearer before then?
<mdz> seb128: I did, but haven't replied yet
<seb128> yes
<cjwatson> sfllaw: that also makes it easier for users of stable releases to look up the bug and figure out why we changed it, which is a significant part of the point of the process too
<mdz> it sounded indecisive :-)
<seb128> I'm in contact with tracker upstream
<seb128> and I think we will get tracker uploaded next week
<seb128> I can't speak for tracker before getting user feedback on it
<seb128> it looks a better choice on the paper
<mdz> seb128: is it possible to use both in parallel?
<seb128> C, smaller, extra features, good community
<seb128> no
<mdz> jdub said there was some discussion on desktop-devel-list
<seb128> tracker has been proposed for GNOME 2.18
<seb128> it's not likely to be accepted though
<seb128> and beagle has not been proposed
<mdz> ok, well the first step is to get them both in so that they can be tested, then send an announcement to -devel-announce to ask for testing and start a discussion about which works better for users
<seb128> yeah that was my plan
<mdz> will you do that?
<mdz> ok ,thanks
<seb128> yep, I'm on it
<seb128> np
<mdz> no word from doko?
<mdz> (he was next)
<mvo> I have tried to call him today without success
<mvo> got the mailbox only on his mobile
<mdz> mvo: will you try him tomorrow also?  I hope he is OK
<mvo> mdz: yes
<mdz> keep me updated
* mvo is slightly worried too
<ogra> he joined for a short minute in #canonical on tuesday
<dholbach> maybe I should do my morning run to his place tomorrow and bang on his door
<mvo> ogra: I talked to him at the start of the weel
<ogra> ah, right
<mvo> week even
<mdz> sfllaw: you're next then
<sfllaw> Done:
<sfllaw>  * Taught two classes for UbuntuOpenWeek
<sfllaw>  * Verified many StableReleaseUpdates
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Decided on two interns for the Montreal office
<sfllaw>  * scalable-installation-testing spec is drafted
<sfllaw> To do:
<sfllaw>  * Interview more interns on Friday
<sfllaw>  * Start getting thin clients for interns
<sfllaw>  * Write documentation on Wiki about Ubuntu QA and TestPlans/TestCases.
<sfllaw> Blocked:
<sfllaw>  * synaptic SRU is waiting in the edgy-proposed NEW queue
<sfllaw> Specs:
<sfllaw>  * bug-reporting-tool (Approved)
<sfllaw>  * scalable-installation-testing (Discussion)
<sfllaw>   * We should probably implement some form of scalable-installation-testing, even if it isn't sufficiently general.  The Testing/Current wiki page must die.
<mdz> sfllaw: was the decision positive or negative on the interns?
<mdz> sfllaw: I talked with pitti this morning about scalable-installation-testing; I think it may need some revision
<sfllaw> sfllaw: Ah.  Interviewed five interns.  Picked two.
<sfllaw> mdz: ^^^
<mdz> what I've proposed is a small but fundamental change
<sfllaw> mdz: Can this change be done for the Feisty timeline?
<mdz> it's essential that we be able to collect feedback from people outside of the formal testing framework
<sfllaw> mdz: If so, I agree.
<mdz> yes, I think it's not significantly more complex
<sfllaw> mdz: OK.  Either talk to me or pitti after the meeting and we'll update the spec until you're happy.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> sfllaw: when do the interns start?
<sfllaw> January.
<seb128> what are they going to do? ;)
<sfllaw> We have desks for them, but we'll need stations.
<mdz> bugs!
<seb128> new hands to help on bug triage? ;)
<sfllaw> seb128: Yes.
<seb128> WAOUH
<ogra> YAY
* seb128 hugs mdz
<dholbach> YEEEHAA
<sfllaw> And verification if they can handle it.
<mdz> their start should be a good opportunity to review and improve the bug documentation as well
<sfllaw> Yeah.
<mdz> so that it can be used to train future interns
<sfllaw> We should be able to source free people from Jan-Apr.
<mdz> sfllaw: great work
<sfllaw> Some free people Sep-Dec.
<sfllaw> But summer months will be lean.
<sfllaw> Kids expect pay from summer jobs.
<mdz> if someone has proven themselves in an internship, we can consider them for a summer arrangement
<sfllaw> That'd be cool.
<seb128> sfllaw: that's why we have SoC :p
<ogra> hahaha
<sfllaw> Let's talk about this in two or three months.
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<mdz> ogra: next
<ogra> * last-week:
<ogra>  - travelling the wild wild east
<ogra>  - merging
<ogra>  - prepared new ltsp feisty branch
<ogra>  - prepared --workstation plugin for ltsp-fat-clients (running fine, only network auth bits are missing)
<ogra>  - seed merge
<ogra>  - OpenWeek edubuntu Q&A session
<ogra> * next week:
<ogra>  - herd1
<ogra>  - merge debian ltsp patch backlog
<ogra>  - finishing the parts of ltsp-fat-clients that work without network auth
<ogra>  - start working on edubuntu-network-auth-server/client
<ogra> 
<ogra> * approved specs:
<ogra>  - ltsp-fat-clients - nearly implemented (a full ubuntu runs awesome in 196M/500Mhz, 32M nbd swap ;) )
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-server - not started
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-client - not started
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound - started
<ogra>  - ltsp-management-gui - started
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-upgrade - not started
<ogra>  - edubuntu-on-two-cds - not started
<ogra>  - ltsp-persistent-home - started by sbalneav (actually implemented during MTV, just not merged yet)
<mdz> ogra: your specs don't seem to be targeted for feisty yet
<mdz> ogra: have you reviewed them with RichEd?
<ogra> they are proposed for it ... anything else i need to do ?
<ogra> yes
<ajmitch> ogra: I'll try & find some time to talk to you tomorrow or so about e-n-a-c/s
<mdz> ogra: and all 8 are feisty targets?  are their priorities set appropriately?
<ogra> ajmitch, try to do it at a time where we can get moquist to attend (US time)
<ajmitch> right, tomorrow is weekend for me, I'll track him down
<ogra> mdz, the edubuntu-auth ones would be more appropriate with high status
<finalbeta> mdz they are visible to me on the Feisty spec page.
<mdz> ogra: they are not proposed for it; if you are in -core-dev they should go straight through anyway
<ogra> weird
<mdz> ah, there they are
<mdz> ogra: you must have done them since the meeting started :-P
<finalbeta> He did.
<ogra> yeah
* ogra blushes
<dholbach> just in time
<mdz> ok, thanks ogra
<mdz> anyone heard from Keybuk?
<dholbach> hi pitti
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> Approved:
<iwj>  gnome-app-install-codecs: Started looking at g-a-i database generation.
<iwj>  udev-lvm, consistent-login-screen: Implementation not yet started.
<iwj>  package-dependency-field-breaks: Beta Available.  Should be ready for full deployment now; I will rerun my search-for-candidates.
<iwj>  automated-testing-deployment: parts of implementation deferred from edgy.  Work will continue.
<pitti> hello
<iwj> Approved but problem:
<iwj>  usb-adsl-modems: lacking an Assignee.  It would be nice to assign this to someone who understands the subject.
<iwj> Drafting:
<iwj>  dbus-restarts: This needs discussion.  Ideally we could discuss it at the next UDS or perhaps at a sprint, to write a clear and correct spec for feisty+1.  Upstream disapprove but we all agree they're wrong.
<iwj> New - needed (and still need) discussion, but not scheduled at uds-mtv:
<iwj>  winmodem-support: IMO should be deferred to feisty+1.
<iwj>  edgy-fontconfig: There is no spec.  IMO should be deferred (or rejected).
<mdz> iwj: we don't have an expert on hand for usb-adsl-modems; you'll need to learn about it
<mdz> iwj: hardware and service can be provided if needed
<iwj> I'll see what I can do.
<mdz> iwj: let me know what you need and how much it costs
<mdz> iwj: same goes for winmodem-support.  there is no formal spec, but there is a wealth of information from the community
<iwj> OK, I'll look into both of those.  I don't want to make any promises ...
<mdz> it deserves a proper review to identify which bits can be automated, which are licensing issues, etc.
<cjwatson> for winmodem-support I think we need to be careful to select what we do
<cjwatson> it's in danger of being a bit of a rabbit-hole
<iwj> It did look quite open ended.
<cjwatson> I agree it should be reviewed, just would like the time to be spent wisely
<mdz> we should make sure we're doing the best we can with the available software to enable the hardware
<pitti> meeting is over already?
<iwj> I'll see what I can do to improve the situation.  (I already have a winmodem in my laptop in fact ...)
<cjwatson> pitti: no
<mdz> it isn't more than a day's work to review what's out there, and that would be time well spent
<mdz> pitti: no
<iwj> review> OK, I'll do that.
<pitti> ah, just my terrible initial lag
<mdz> iwj: ok, let me know what you find out
<mdz> iwj: edgy-fontconfig was a discussion placeholder for UDS; should be marked informational and not targeted
<iwj> OK.
<mdz> dbus-restarts sounds like something which needs discussion, especially with some upstreams
<mdz> not urgent for feisty
<iwj> mdz: I don't think discussing it with upstreams will get us anywhere.
<iwj> not urgent for feisty> Indeed.
<iwj> We just need to fix it.
<mdz> it's a lot of work and a large delta for us to take on; we shouldn't do it without some buy-in elsewhere
<iwj> So I'd like to actually talk to people about what would be a good thing to do so we have a clear plan.
<iwj> Without that it's hard to get buy-in.
<iwj> I think Debian would take sane changes at least.
<cjwatson> iwj: not dbus upstream themselves, perhaps, but upstreams of packages using dbus
<iwj> cjwatson: Mmmm.
<mdz> ->ubuntu-devel then, CCing relevant upstreams for the packages we'd be modifying
<iwj> marked informational> Err, how do I do that in LP ?
<mdz> it's under 'title and summary' or such
<iwj> Aha.
<mdz> iwj: breaks isn't targeted for feisty; if it's ready to go then target it
<iwj> mdz: Right.
<mdz> automated-testing-deployment needs targeting also; I think it's still set to edgy
<iwj> Willdo.
<mdz> ok, thanks iwj
<mdz> cjwatson: next
<cjwatson> Specifications:
<cjwatson>   setup-console-under-usplash: Approved, beta available; apparently broke though (#73955) so need to investigate.
<cjwatson>   intel-mac-support, ubiquity-advanced-partitioner, ubiquity-automation, ubiquity-driver-updates, ubiquity-release-notes: Approved.
<cjwatson>   feisty-ubiquity: Approved. Part bite-size tasks for new developers, and part stuff that I need to do; who should be the assignee?
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-slideshow: Approved. Part artwork and part me; who should be the assignee?
<cjwatson>   increase-hwdb-participation: Approved. Assignee probably shouldn't be me.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-more-user-config: Still drafting, but mostly there on the condition that it satisfies the requirements, which I'm not sure about; sent to sabdfl for review. Need to talk to sysadmin too.
<cjwatson>   simplify-oem-installation: Still in requirements gathering. There are some fairly obvious things we can do listed at the bottom of the brain-dump, but I don't know how far we can take this without better commercial input.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-oem: Not written up, and probably not happening.
<cjwatson> Other:
<cjwatson>   Installer all merged, and more or less ready for Herd 1 bar the bug-fixing.
<cjwatson>   Who volunteered to be distro->LP-meeting delegate? I thought it was sfllaw, but I don't remember for sure, and the LP meeting is not obviously conveniently timed for him.
<cjwatson>   <SteveA> I like the idea of having a delegate from the distro team
<cjwatson>   <SteveA> one way to manage this with simon is to have simon talk with me or kiko on wednesday
<cjwatson>   <SteveA> and feed points / topics of concern to us for the meeting
<cjwatson> (the bit at the end was because I chipped into the LP meeting with something random and SteveA /msged me to thank me for contributing)
<mdz> cjwatson: feisty-ubiquity: primary assignee should be you, but please farm out the bite-size bits.  maybe talk to dholbach or jono if no one in the core team is interested
<cjwatson> ok
<sfllaw> As for the LP delegate, it should probably be me.  As I basically spend all day using LP.
<cjwatson> I know sivang expressed interest
<cjwatson> sfllaw: time sucks for you, doesn't it? it's always noon UTC
<sfllaw> sivang: Ping?
<mdz> cjwatson: ubiquity-slideshow is yours but low priority; would be great to find someone else to take it and be able to bump it up, but your others are more important
<cjwatson> sfllaw: I mean in ubiquity work
<sfllaw> Yeah, that time is terrible.
<cjwatson> mdz: understood; shortly I'll be putting together some kind of guide for installer development and mailing it out in the hope of generating some interest
<cjwatson> sfllaw: but, as SteveA says, if you want to feed info to him and kiko on Wednesday, and read the logs/summaries afterwards, that would work fine
<sfllaw> When are their meetings?  Thursday?
<cjwatson> yes
<mdz> let's take that discussion to distro-team@
<sfllaw> I might do that.
<mdz> distro-team@ and launchpad@, even
<mdz> it might be that that person doesn't need to attend the meetings
<cjwatson> I mentioned increase-hwdb-participation at last week's meeting too. Mithrandir expressed some interest then, but I think he thought it was in casper, which it doesn't really seem to be
<mdz> any volunteers for increase-hwdb-participation?
<cjwatson> (it's basically a desktop notification plus a few other bits)
<ogra> yeah, its only a notification bubble and a change of the .desktop file status ...
<pitti> doesn't sound too scary, I can take a look at it, but I don't know the spec yet
<mdz> pitti: please have a look and let me know
<cjwatson> I think it's fairly trivial, if you have time.
<mdz> cjwatson: does that cover all the non-limbo specs of yours?
<pitti> the time is the problem here, but that applies to everyone
<ogra> it mentions apport as well ;)
<pitti> heh
* mvo would be interessted as well, but time is certainly a issue :/
<cjwatson> mdz: I believe they're all covered above. ubiquity-more-user-config, simplify-oem-installation, ubiquity-oem are the only ones not targeted.
<mdz> *oem* I think has to be targeted for feisty+1 after proper requirements definition
<sladen> if increase-hwdb-participation is really that minor, I'll consider it
<mdz> more-user-config is blocked on IS?
<lifeless> I need to finish the hwdb client changes to - pitti can we coordinate please
<lifeless> s/to/too
<cjwatson> ubiquity-slideshow> I expect that my side of it will be pretty small, FWIW. I agree it's less important than the others
<pitti> lifeless: of course
<cjwatson> mdz: yes
<cjwatson> will send mail about that
<mdz> ok, should probably be in RT
<mdz> cjwatson: thanks
<Burgwork> cjwatson: email marketing team asking for content
<lifeless> pitti: great. I have have it working, just needs to be made pretty.
<mdz> pitti: next
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * lots of package merges
<pitti>  * spec reviews, discussions, and approvals; my own (assignee/drafter) feisty specs are all approved; I approved most of the specs I'm approver for, except:
<pitti>   - simple-x-mode-selection: still in drafting, pinged rodarvus yesterday
<pitti>   - scalable-installation-testing: was approved this morning with our original design; mdz had a different idea which got discussed shortly this morning, but which requires more intrusive changes in ubiquity, the db design, and other components, so I set it back to discussion for now
<cjwatson> Burgwork: art team too I think
<cjwatson> Burgwork: but ok
<pitti>   - ltsp-local-apps: utterly complex and a quick discussion with cjwatson revealed that this needs much more thought (this one is not marked for feisty)
<pitti>  * Note: bug-reporting-tool is currently assigned to sfllaw, but since it's mainly apport work, I should probably the assignee.
<pitti>  * cleanup-audio-jumble: tested pulseaudio and attempted to create the mentioned (in spec) patch to not hog the audio device; this failed due to the principal design of pulse; upstream works on a cleaner and more generic solution, but this will not be ready for feisty; since I do not want to break compatibility with commercial OSS apps and the multiuser case, I did not continue working on this for now
<pitti>  * zero-configuration-networking:
<pitti>   - did the required changes to base-files, avahi-autoipd, avahi, libnss-mdns, and ifupdown, so that the stuff works OOTB now when using dhclient
<pitti>   - filed bug for zeroconf package removal
<pitti>   - still missing: fix network-manager to not clobber the avahi-autoipd address (so that .local name resolution works with n-m), teach network-admin about the new ifupdown method (not that urgent, though, most people will not use the new /e/n/interfaces method and just rely on n-m or dhclient), and seed avahi-autoipd to ubuntu-desktop (after herd freeze)
<pitti>  * apport-improvements: got apport bits in for intercepting Python crashes, discussed a battle plan for Mono with slomo
<pitti>  * two OpenWeek talks
<pitti>  * started discussion and coding for automated package tests (mainly to improve QA of securi
<pitti> ty updates so far, but this topic seems to grow and grow)
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * finish zero-configuration-networking implementation
<mdz> pitti,sfllaw: happy for pitti to take bug-reporting-tool if you two agree
<pitti>  * fix feisty's and edgy's gnome-system-tools authentication problem
<pitti>  * change dapper's and edgy's ~/.xsession-errors rotation handling to new plan
<pitti>  * dive into bug triage
<mdz> consider cleanup-audio-jumble deferred for now
<sfllaw> pitti: Agreed.
<pitti> sfllaw: if you want to hack on apport, go ahead, of course; but I guess I'll give a hand with that anyway
<cjwatson> pitti: ltsp-local-apps> do you mean the ssh Cipher=none thing?
<pitti> mdz: audio> I agree
<sfllaw> pitti: When I get not busy.  :)
<sfllaw> In the meantime, you can hack on it.
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, that still seems to be an issue, I didn't hear an update so far?
<ogra> cjwatson,  ssh Cipher=none isnt in any spec
<cjwatson> pitti: haven't looked at it yet, I didn't realise it was blocking this spec rather than just random would-be-nice-if
<ogra> thats a whishlist thing from upstream ltsp ... to not having to switch to xdmcp
<mdz> pitti: Mithrandir is going to be working on n-m, so coordinate with him re: zero-conf-net
<pitti> cjwatson: well, it's not the only thing; the spec lacks verbosity in general
<ogra> if it shouws up in that spec it needs to be taken out, it has nothing to do with local-apps
<pitti> mdz: yes, we already had a quick talk
<cjwatson> pitti: ok; if it's something else then I'm afraid I've entirely forgotten our discussion ;)
<cjwatson> I need to look at scalable-installation-testing
<mdz> pitti: automated package tests -> iwj's stuff or something different?
<pitti> cjwatson: I mainly needed that
<pitti> mdz: eventually it would merge with that, yes
<pitti> mdz: keescook and I had a discussion on the allhands how to improve our security update QA process
<mdz> lifeless: ^^
<pitti> mdz: and we agreed to testing security updates at least by two people, and writing automated tests where appropriate
<pitti> sfllaw, lifeless, keescook, iwj, and I had a small discussion recently
<pitti> since it turned out that these tests should be applicable to QA team as well, and might be integrated into autopkgtest
<lifeless> mdz: yup
<iwj> There's a reasonably good fit; most of my stuff is infrastructure and there are quite a few actual tests there that it would be nice to glue in.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> tkamppeter: are you here?
<tkamppeter> Yes.
<mdz> tkamppeter: ok, you're next then
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<pitti> I didn't yet take a look at autopkgtest, I just wanted some initial bits to play with, but I definitively want to make it fit there
<tkamppeter> ACCEPTED FEATURES (for Feisty):
<tkamppeter> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/people/till-kamppeter/+specs
<tkamppeter> UDS outcomes:
<tkamppeter> - "Easy configuration of printer sharing"
<tkamppeter> - "Replace gnome-cups-manager by printerdrake"
<tkamppeter> - "Automatic download of printer drivers through the internet"
<tkamppeter> - "Automatic hotplug printer configuration"
<tkamppeter> - Answered to bug report
<tkamppeter> - Re-submitted EDgy update for foo2zjs bug 65618
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65618 in foo2zjs "Firmware upload to LJ 1000/1005/1008/1020 broken (fix to be proposed as Edgy update)" [Medium,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65618
<mdz> pitti's concerns with printerdriverautodownload were addressed?
<pitti> mdz: yes
<pitti> (from my POV, that is)
<tkamppeter> Also discussed how to save space with the PPDs bug 39847
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39847 in foomatic-db "Getting (more) manufacturer-supplied PostScript PPDs onto the Ubuntu desktop CDs" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39847
<mdz> tkamppeter: 65618 -> cjwatson
<mdz> automatic hotplug printer configuration is not for feisty, correct?
<cjwatson> the SRU team is subscribed to 65618, so I'll catch up on it tomorrow
<cjwatson> sorry for the delay
<tkamppeter> Yes, this I wanted to say, too.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks tkamppeter
<mdz> did I miss anyone, or is there any other business to discuss (briefly)?
<zul> just me..
<fabbione> distro sprint?
<mdz> zul: go ahead
<pitti> ^ any dates yet?
<zul> this week
<zul> ---------
<zul> * xen kernel update
<zul> * kernel security for breezy.
<zul> * bug triaging
<zul> next week
<fabbione> we are about 7 weeks and no dates have been confirmed
<zul> ---------
<mdz> fabbione: please mail distro-team@
<zul> * big xen/kernel push
<ogra> ^ any places yet ?
<zul> * bug triaging
<zul> * merges
<zul> Specs
<zul> ----
<mdz> fabbione: we do need to finalize that soon
<zul> * xen-fesity spec apprvoed (approved), started
<mdz> zul: are you comfortable with how xen-feisty turned out?
<zul> yes i am
<ajmitch> mdz: what do do with any other specs that may be stuck at needs review or pending approval?
<mdz> zul: will xen support paravirt-ops?
<mdz> ajmitch: review -> review team, approval -> technical-board
<zul> it looks like it from what i been seeing ive asked the upstream developers
<mdz> that would make it a candidate for main
<zul> thats what im hoping for
<mdz> we'll see what happens
<ajmitch> mdz: right, thanks, wasn't sure if it was too late
<mdz> we're well over time
<zul> thanks everyone
<mdz> yes, thanks all
<pitti> zul, BenC, kylem: any remaining trouble for the kernel security update? any ETA?
<mdz> until next week
<cjwatson> not really for this meeting I suppose, but do we know the status of new TB appointments?
<mdz> adjourned
<seb128> thank you mdz
<dholbach> thanks
<mdz> cjwatson: that's all sabdfl as far as I know; will raise it with him the next time we speak
<kylem> pitti, i've been building them today to make sure i don't brown paper bag my first piece of work...
<dholbach> and a TB meeting? people have been asking me for that already
<kylem> pitti, but afaict, it seems good.
<zul> pitti: i think im almost ready i just have one patch to ask about
<zul> but ill do that tonight when i get home (still at work)
<zul> later
<pitti> zul, kylem: thank you
<pitti> thanks all!
<kylem> cheers
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-01
<tkamppeter> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<sivang> sfllaw: pong, sorry about the meeting, just now saw backlogs
<sivang> sfllaw: unping, already sorted with cjwatson
<cakep-ajah> met malem
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 05 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board
<tonyyarusso> Still nothing
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-03
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 05 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board
<Adri2000> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 05 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Dec 14:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 14:00: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-26
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team
<Ziroday> !schedule @singapore
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 29 Nov 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 02 Dec 03:00: Art Team
<kraut> moin
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 14:00: Art Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-27
<nealmcb> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 29 Nov 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 19:00: Art Team
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 29 Nov 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 12:00: Art Team
<musashi> !schedule
<ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<ianmcorvidae> @schedule phoenix
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Phoenix: 29 Nov 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 12:00: Art Team
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 29 Nov 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 12:00: Art Team
<nealmcb> The colorado team will be having a meeting in here in 3 minutes
<nealmcb> @time
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 27 2007, 01:58:01 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 2 days
<MitchM> nealmcb, first topic :: Leadership Roles -> Deputy Team Lead
<nealmcb> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 02:00. The chair is nealmcb.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nealmcb> [topic] attendance
<MootBot> New Topic:  attendance
<nealmcb> all here please say "aye"
<FunnyLookinHat> aye
<MitchM> aye
<musashi> aye
<btrigg> aye
<nealmcb> (mootbot keeps a log of who said something)
<tiborio> aye
<nealmcb> [topic] Leadership Roles -> Deputy Team Lead
<MootBot> New Topic:  Leadership Roles -> Deputy Team Lead
<MitchM> [IDEA] We need to assign a deputy team lead
<MootBot> IDEA received:  We need to assign a deputy team lead
<MitchM> Are there any volunteers looking to fulfill this role?
<btrigg> What are the responsibilities?
<MitchM> Assiting me with planning meetings / finding locations / distributing cd's etc.
<musashi> am i still education lead or is that a vote thing and not yet official?
<MitchM> also acts as team lead in my absense
<btrigg> Time requirements?
<MitchM> You are the education lead musashi
<musashi> okay, i'll stay that
<musashi> if you want me to
<MitchM> up to you musashi
<MitchM> :)
<musashi> you
<musashi> 're the new dictator
<MitchM> time requirements i'd say about 2 - 4 hours/week
<MitchM> closer to the release party it goes up...
<MitchM> as we try to find locations
<MitchM> (which is still quite the project)
<btrigg> Right.
<musashi> might go up as we organize other events too
<MitchM> aye.
<MitchM> so it's hard to say overall contribution as we're trying to organize our efforts better at the current time
<musashi> ask FunnyLookinHat how much time it takes
<btrigg> Ok.  Well, I'd love to do it, but I have school commitments that would come first, sorry.
<MitchM> *nods*
<MitchM> [IDEA] Ask the list again for a volunteer for the Deputy Team Lead
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Ask the list again for a volunteer for the Deputy Team Lead
<MitchM> topic -> regional leaders?
<nealmcb> [topic] regional leaders?
<MootBot> New Topic:  regional leaders?
<MitchM> There was discussion at the release party to have seperate regional leaders
<FunnyLookinHat> I'm sort of AFK
<musashi> i think this would be a good idea but not sure how to implement
<FunnyLookinHat> Sorry guys, take notes on the info you need from me.
<MitchM> [idea] How can we implement a regional structure?
<MootBot> IDEA received:  How can we implement a regional structure?
<MitchM> Does it make sense to seperate our CoLoCo into 'regions' based on current attendance and meetings?
<musashi> maybe regional coordinators would be a better term
<btrigg> I think we have some obvious divisions...Springs, GJ, Northern CO...
<MitchM> *nods*
<btrigg> But the Metro region may be a bit more packed.
<musashi> i think it makes sense to have regional activities since we can't all get everywhere
<btrigg> Agreed.
<musashi> but team decisions need to be by the team not region
<MitchM> yeah - it is very hard to organize something more than a handful of people can attend in any location...
<MitchM> (i.e. meetings in boulder etc.)
<btrigg> Yes.
<musashi> yeah, i was the only one. thanks MitchM
<btrigg> Plus, for me at least, it would be easier to have a meeting with the few folks who are interested and are close.
<MitchM> I would have buddied up with ya musashi :D
<MitchM> but i was detained...
<musashi> no worries, i brought the family
<MitchM> ah - very nice :D
<MitchM> [idea] Regional events organized by 'regional coordinators' with Team decisions being done by the "team"
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Regional events organized by 'regional coordinators' with Team decisions being done by the "team"
<musashi> sounds good
<btrigg> Agreed.
<MitchM> So the turnout may be too small to really bring any conclusion to this; but it's a path we can pursue
<MitchM> and we should bring this topic to the list
<MitchM> [idea] regional meetings on the same day (with all involved logged into irc)
<MootBot> IDEA received:  regional meetings on the same day (with all involved logged into irc)
<nealmcb> [idea] Important decisions should also be discussed on the mailing list
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Important decisions should also be discussed on the mailing list
<MitchM> +1
<btrigg> I think we've seen on the list that even irc meetings are tough to organize.
<MitchM> anyone else have any leadership concerns?
<MitchM> btrigg, yeah. Its a pain to be productive :D
 * Whelpo mutters something about time wasting video games.
<musashi> +1 to that but are there any better options. seems a lot don't follow the list and some ignore when too much starts happening (spams the inbox and all)
<btrigg> Open time is the factor for me.
<musashi> we have over 100 members but only 10 -20 are moderately active it seems
<btrigg> I'd love to be much more involved but it's a matter of what I can do and when.
<musashi> [idea] how do we increase participation of all our members?
<MootBot> IDEA received:  how do we increase participation of all our members?
<btrigg> laissez-faire?
<MitchM> [idea] Obtain a monthly schedule for meetings
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Obtain a monthly schedule for meetings
<musashi> yes, but a lot signed up as members. how do we get them involved
<MitchM> I believe if we dedicate a day/time to meetings (like today)
<MitchM> we'll eventaully see more 'movement' in our IRC
<btrigg> A loose hierarchy of "independent" leaders/coordinators who disseminate info to their regions?
<musashi> +1
<btrigg> +1
<musashi> to both
<MitchM> Vote to change topic to upcomming events?
<nealmcb> [topic] attendance part two: everyone please state your name, so we can get better at matching irc nicks and email
<MootBot> New Topic:  attendance part two: everyone please state your name, so we can get better at matching irc nicks and email
<nealmcb> Neal McBurnett
<btrigg> Brett Trigg
<siblog> simon engelbert
<acomer> Alex Comer
<MitchM> Mitch Mahan, Thornton
<tiborio> Tibor Hetei
<musashi> jim hutchinson
<nealmcb> Boulder
<spoke> Craig Maxwell
<btrigg> Northglenn
<EricTheGrey> John Edwards
<Whelpo> Daniel Galecki
<tiborio> Vail
<musashi> fort collins
<Whelpo> Westminster
<MitchM> vote: topic -> Upcomming Events
<nealmcb> [topic] upcoming events
<siblog> littleton
<MootBot> New Topic:  upcoming events
<MitchM> *nods*
<EricTheGrey> Thornton
<MitchM> as the education team lead musashi; have you had any more thoughts about organizing a 'library' gathering?
<musashi> yes, but not sure what exactly to do
<MitchM> [idea] Claim library space to offer 'free-tutoring' to people interested in ubuntu
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Claim library space to offer 'free-tutoring' to people interested in ubuntu
<musashi> my idea was to advertise in local libraries for a computer support day
<MitchM> Would anyone like to help musashi with this project?
<musashi> bring your box, we demo ubuntu and then help them with various issues including learning about ubuntu.
<MitchM> I think it's a great idea - even more so if they let us Live! Ubuntu on their library computers
<siblog> location?
<musashi> i think it would be good to help windows users get more foss on their boxes too and such and not push ubuntu too much
<MitchM> siblog, tbd
<musashi> maybe a tech support / intro to foss  computer fair
<btrigg> Has the idea of install races come up?  Any insight on that?
<musashi> someone mentioned a computer first aid day or something like that
<MitchM> [idea] Computer Aid Day
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Computer Aid Day
<musashi> ah, computer fair ala the health fairs
<siblog> I would not mind helping out depending on time/location
<musashi> see if we can't get a little news/tv blurb too
<EricTheGrey> We'll have to make certain people nnow it's NOT a computer lab.  Otherwise we'll end up with people bringing their windows machines in for spyware cleaning...
<nealmcb> sounds fun.  and the library would hopefully put it up on their calendar of events
<MitchM> musashi, would you like to try and locate a central 'library' location and see if they'd allow such an activity?
<musashi> EricTheGrey, i think that might be a good thing. while cleaning their box we mention ubuntu and hand them a cd
<nealmcb> remember there are also the regular CLUE installfests in north and south denver metro area
<musashi> MitchM, not sure about "central" but maybe a couple libraries along the front range
<MitchM> *nods*
<btrigg> EricTheGrey: Yes, but that would also be a good time to show goodwill, clean the spyware (if possible) and explain how Ubuntu is more resistant...demos, etc.
<MitchM> if you could look into it and report back on our next irc meeting
<MitchM> (which is not scheduled)
<MitchM> that would be most helpful :)
<musashi> nealmcb, i would like it to NOT be an install fest. more a help desk day where we push foss as a good solution
<nealmcb> musashi: right - just good to be able to point them at such things
<musashi> certainly we can add that too but i wouldn't want to compete
<nealmcb> I've heard the clue folks can help with ubuntu and other distros
<EricTheGrey> I would not mind helping out on either, depending on my available. time.
<musashi> i.e. a different day would be good
<MitchM> [idea] Assist users in general Windows woes while 'advertising' Foss/Ubuntu
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Assist users in general Windows woes while 'advertising' Foss/Ubuntu
<musashi> something like that
<musashi> MitchM, i will contact some of the libraries and see if they are open to loaning the space
<MitchM> excellent :)
<musashi> and doing some of the advertising
<MitchM> [idea] musashi will ask libraries for available space/accomodations and report back to the loco
<MootBot> IDEA received:  musashi will ask libraries for available space/accomodations and report back to the loco
<nealmcb> [idea] hand out The Open Disc also
<MootBot> IDEA received:  hand out The Open Disc also
<musashi> yep that to
<musashi> too
<nealmcb> [action] musashi will ask libraries for available space/accomodations and report back to the loco
<MootBot> ACTION received:  musashi will ask libraries for available space/accomodations and report back to the loco
<MitchM> thanks :)
<musashi> ooh, that sounds official
<MitchM> very.
<nealmcb> note also [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<musashi> maybe mootbot can get my A in gear on my dissertation :)
<nealmcb> though links are automatic if you paste a url
<MitchM> [idea] LoCo IRC bug day
<MootBot> IDEA received:  LoCo IRC bug day
<MitchM> anyone interested in holding a weekly/bi-weekly semi-bug day in #ubuntu-colorado?
<Whelpo> I like the bug day idea
<MitchM> Where we can go around Launchpad and help triage bugs?
<btrigg> There are bugs?  :-)
<musashi> just the one
<MitchM> always. grab your fly-swatter
<musashi> !bug #1
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<Whelpo> I sometimes find a bug but don't have the time/motivation to post it
<btrigg> lol
<MitchM> Whelpo, yuck :P
<Whelpo> so having a "bug day" would help with the motivation
 * nealmcb nods
<MitchM> Another decision for the list
<MitchM> I'd prefer Sunday nights (when nothing is going on)
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
<musashi> great idea but not my strength
<MitchM> but we'll have to get a general time assertation from the list
<Whelpo> a weekend would definetly be better
<MitchM> musashi, not all bugs deal with programming ;)
<nealmcb> The next Hug Day is 28 November 2007, in all timezones. It will take place in #ubuntu-bugs on Freenode.
<MitchM> musashi, some are simple and most just need closing/modifying
<musashi> no but most are beyond me
<nealmcb> see you then!
<MitchM> :D
<musashi> i put in a lot of time on answers
<musashi> i'll someone else do bugs
<Whelpo> maybe bug day could be added to the Coloco calender?
<MitchM> vote -> LoCo Bug day?  :: (to be brought to the list for judgement)
<MitchM> +1 Whelpo
<btrigg> [AGREED]
<nealmcb> there are lots of ways both really easy and really advanced, to help with bugs - see the page for details
<MitchM> [AGREED]
<nealmcb> who will put the 28th on the calendar and wiki and web site and mail list or whereever else people look?
<MitchM> Nick !
<nealmcb> [agreed] coloco will participate in bug day on the 28th
<MootBot> AGREED received:  coloco will participate in bug day on the 28th
<musashi> nealmcb, i'm sure that's true but i already spend my fair share on launchpad. i'll be happy to support a bug day but probably won't participate. just not my forte
<nealmcb> musashi: np!
<nealmcb> you are awesome on answers!
<musashi> well average maybe
<musashi> i help when i can
<MitchM> i'd prefer the loco bug day as opposed to the Ubuntu one; where i have time on sundays to triage (but lack motivation)
<musashi> usually those dumber than me :)
<musashi> s/dumber/less knowledgeable
<MitchM> [AGREED] LoCo Bug Day -> Present Idea to List
<MitchM> :P
<MitchM> topic -> General Discussion
<MitchM> topic -> CD's and Who Needs Them!?
<MitchM> :D
<musashi> just got my small batch but may not last long
<nealmcb> [topic] CD's and Who Needs Them!?
<MootBot> New Topic:  CD's and Who Needs Them!?
<Whelpo> I could use some CDs
<MitchM> [idea] Send whelp CD's
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Send whelp CD's
<MitchM> :P
<MitchM> whelpo* !
<siblog> I would like to help distribute some CDs
<nealmcb> hmm - event I forgot - the BWA meeting at ncar tomorrow night, where we'll need lots of disks
<Whelpo> I had to order some recently myself... only went for 2
<MitchM> [idea] Siblog would like to distribute CD's
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Siblog would like to distribute CD's
<MitchM> [idea] Bring CD's to BWA Meeting
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Bring CD's to BWA Meeting
<Whelpo> having CDs handy at work would be also good... been spready the joy slowly around
<Whelpo> *spreading
<MitchM> work has been a great place to spread ubuntu for me
<MitchM> i placed some CD's in our lunch room
<MitchM> most of them disspeared
<MitchM> dissapeared*
<siblog> me too :-)
<Whelpo> hopefully didn't end up as coasters ;)
<musashi> lol
<MitchM> Whelpo, product placement !
<MitchM> all the better :P
<Whelpo> lunchroom may = coasters
<musashi> shove them in linux books at the book store (or windows books)
<Whelpo> I like that one
<tiborio> good one
<nealmcb> MitchM: hopefully the cleaning crew or security didn't take them
<MitchM> nealmcb, it was in the nicely presented 'cd box'
<MitchM> so i doubt it :D
<nealmcb> those boxes are great!
<MitchM> yeah - they look so professional.
<MitchM> brilliant idea
<MitchM> alright -> whelpo needs cd's; maybe siblog
<MitchM> i'll try and get with you guys to give you some
<Whelpo> Mitch, do you live where you hosted the release party?
<musashi> i will need some eventually too but not right away
<nealmcb> MitchM: are you coming to bwa?  with a very professional box, and kubuntu also?
<MitchM> Whelpo, not anymore; that was temporary
 * nealmcb can be demanding
<nealmcb> :-)
<siblog> yes please...I have some people at work interested
<MitchM> nealmcb, url ?
<Whelpo> ah, too bad since that's like right by me
<MitchM> [idea] siblog also needs cd's
<MootBot> IDEA received:  siblog also needs cd's
<nealmcb> on email - let me dig it out
<MitchM> Whelpo, i live about 12 minutes away from there :)
<Whelpo> oh, not too bad then
<acomer> re: bwa meeting... are we actually invited? is this meeting open to the public? reading their page i got the impression that  bwa expects folks to be a member to participate
<MitchM> nah
<nealmcb> http://www.bwa.org
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.bwa.org
<nealmcb> acomer: ahh - good question
<nealmcb> but it was advertised to the rmiug...
<acomer> from bwa.org: "Standard dues are $50/year (for new and nonvolunteering members)."
<MitchM> http://www.bwa.org/calendar/general.htm
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.bwa.org/calendar/general.htm
<MitchM> acomer, "All meetings of Boulder Writers Alliance are free and open to the public."
<acomer> hmm ok
<btrigg> My personal opinion is that being militant at something like that drives more people away that causes them to join.
<MitchM> on their calendar page
<acomer> free buffet!
<MitchM> ecellent !!
<MitchM> ;D
<acomer> i vote we attend all their meetings ;)
<MitchM> topic -> IRC Meeting Times
<acomer> hehe
<musashi> MitchM, you need the [] for that to work :)
<MitchM> no
<MitchM> i need the anvil for that to work :D
<nealmcb> btrigg: yeah.  I would be upset if folks were anything but respectful and welcoming and not annoying
<tiborio> yes. because they know where you live.
<musashi> i meant the [topic] bit
<nealmcb> [topic] irc meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:  irc meeting times
<musashi> like that ^^
<MitchM> Last monday of the month at 7pm ?
<Whelpo> sounds good to me
<MitchM> [topic] Why doesn't this work?
<musashi> i'd go for bi-monthly
<MitchM> [idea] bi-monthly meetings
<MootBot> IDEA received:  bi-monthly meetings
<nealmcb> uh - dec 31st?
<btrigg> [agreed]
<MitchM> [agreed] Hold bi-monthly meetings
<MitchM> nealmcb, of course not!
<MitchM> nealmcb, goof :P
<musashi> maybe only nealmcb can do that
<MitchM> aye.
<MitchM> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<nealmcb> you just need to put text after [agreed]....
<nealmcb> but to say "aye" the custom is to say just "+1"
<nealmcb> it stands out nicely
<btrigg> [agreed] Hold bi-monthly meetings
<MitchM> only the chair can issue [agreed]
<btrigg> Sorry.  Got it.
<MitchM> :D
 * btrigg is a noob
<nealmcb> I think the topic is the only thing that only the person who said "#startmeeting" can do
<musashi> +1 to meetings
<nealmcb> or maybe votes also
<tiborio> I would recommend monthly IRC meetings instead of bi-monthly
<FunnyLookinHat> Yup.  Monthly is better.
<nealmcb> MitchM: cool - a guy that reads doc!
<MitchM> perhaps to be revised at the next meeting?
<MitchM> nealmcb, you bet ya!
<Whelpo> I'm leaning towards Monthly myself
<musashi> you'll hit more people with bi-monthly since some may miss one and 30 days is a long time to wait
 * nealmcb considers whether to agree to bimonthly meetings....
<nealmcb> :-)
<MitchM> action -> Next meeting; January 28th 7pm
<MitchM> +1
<nealmcb> I though bimonthly was twice a month....
<musashi> that's 2 months away
<Whelpo> I was thinking that getting more people with bi-monthly may be good but anyone not attending both would be missing out
<musashi> right, twice a month
<MitchM> doh.
<musashi> Whelpo, well, we can only do so much
<btrigg> lol
<MitchM> i was thinking every _2_ months.
<Whelpo> lol
<MitchM> [idea] Hold a meeting every 2 months ?
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Hold a meeting every 2 months ?
<nealmcb> dec 24th might hit some conflicts also....
<btrigg> What's 12/24?  ;-)
 * nealmcb likes monthly or every 2 weeks
<MitchM> Vote?
<MitchM> monthly +1
<musashi> well dec may be a bad month but if we do 2 a month then months like dec are less an issue
<Whelpo> monthly +1
<musashi> we'd still get one in
<tiborio> monthly +1
<siblog> monthly +1
<nealmcb> [vote] all in favor of meetings every 2 weeks
<MootBot> Please vote on:  all in favor of meetings every 2 weeks.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<MitchM> +1
<musashi> i still think bi will get more involvement even if most only go to one of them
<MootBot> +1 received from MitchM. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<musashi> we can stillhave the log
<nealmcb> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nealmcb. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nealmcb> for the time being at least
<btrigg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from btrigg. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MitchM> aye.
<MitchM> it can always be revised
<Whelpo> 0
<Whelpo> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Whelpo. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nealmcb> next we can vote on monthly, then every 2 months
<nealmcb> or someone can figure out a better voting method :-)
<musashi> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from musashi. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Whelpo> is there anyway to recover one's own password from NickServ?
 * nealmcb wonders if there is a way to find out who hasn't voted
<nealmcb> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
<MitchM> bad results :S
<nealmcb> [vote] all in favor of meetings every month
<MootBot> Please vote on:  all in favor of meetings every month.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nealmcb> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from nealmcb. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<tiborio> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tiborio. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<btrigg> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from btrigg. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<MitchM> 0
<nealmcb> though actually I may prefer monthly - hard to think and scribe at the same time....
<MitchM> aye.
<siblog> 0
<MitchM> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from MitchM. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<musashi> didn't we just do this?
 * MitchM has changed his tide.
<Whelpo> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Whelpo. 3 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nealmcb> this is monthly, not every 2 weeks - we'll compare totals
<MitchM> this is for monthly as oppsed to bi-monthly
<musashi> i thought monthy was the first.
<MitchM> me too.
 * musashi is confused
<MitchM> *chuckles*
<tiborio> For the future: we should have an online surveying capability on our website and post about specific surveys on the list to get more people to vote?
<MitchM> [idea] add vote mechanism to website
<MootBot> IDEA received:  add vote mechanism to website
<siblog> good idea ;-)
<nealmcb> it doesn't matter who casts the votes - all that matters is who counts them    muu hooo wwaaaaa
<MitchM> [idea] set next meeting then plan 'reoccurence' of meetings
<MootBot> IDEA received:  set next meeting then plan 'reoccurence' of meetings
<musashi> okay, i'm +1 for monthly but still think bi would be better so +2 for that
<nealmcb> would someone be willing to send this one to the list?
<MitchM> I will
<nealmcb> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 1
<nealmcb> +1 to mitch
<MitchM> [idea] ask list for occurence of meetings
<MootBot> IDEA received:  ask list for occurence of meetings
<nealmcb> next meeting - can we manage one in dec?  e.g. the 17th?
<MitchM> [idea] Next Meeting -> dec 17th ?
<nealmcb> (3 weeks :-)
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Next Meeting -> dec 17th ?
<musashi> should work for me
<MitchM> shound about right.
<tiborio> works for me
<MitchM> sounds*
<nealmcb> woot!
<btrigg> yes.
<MitchM> topic -> last words !
<tiborio> famous?
<nealmcb> [agreed] next meeting monday dec 17th
<MootBot> AGREED received:  next meeting monday dec 17th
<musashi> but getting more than 6 or 7 would be nice
<nealmcb> [topic] any more agenda items?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any more agenda items?
<MitchM> [idea] ask for mootbot 24 hours ahead of time for #ubuntu-colorado
<MootBot> IDEA received:  ask for mootbot 24 hours ahead of time for #ubuntu-colorado
<musashi> ubucon?
<MitchM> [idea] ask for mootbot in #ubuntu-scribes
<MootBot> IDEA received:  ask for mootbot in #ubuntu-scribes
<nealmcb> [topic] ubucon
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubucon
<MitchM> When... where!?
<MitchM> :D
<musashi> boulder?
<nealmcb> ubucon: The other night I peeked into the new Google office in Boulder - nice, good location.  Prominent pingpong table and climbing wall just inside the entrance :-)   We should do an ubucon there in January.  Dates?
<musashi> whenever it can be planned
<musashi> +1 nealmcb
<MitchM> +1 nealmcb
<musashi> climbing wall? what a place to work
<tiborio> yes. the stress make you climb up the wall!
<tiborio> ;-)
<musashi> idea --> how does a high school teacher get a job at google?
<nealmcb> sat jan 12th?
<tiborio> musashi: start it
<siblog> noob question: what be ubucon?
<MitchM> [idea] ubucon -> sat jan 12th?
<MootBot> IDEA received:  ubucon -> sat jan 12th?
<MitchM> I'll probably be snowboarding - but i may be coerced into Ubuconing !
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubucon-Boulder
<musashi> !ubuncon
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ubuncon - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<musashi> !ubucon
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ubucon - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<tiborio> how about asking the list on that?
<musashi> darn
<MitchM> +1 nealmcb to ask the list
<nealmcb> [idea] if there is room, we should invite all the local lugs etc
<MootBot> IDEA received:  if there is room, we should invite all the local lugs etc
<MitchM> +1
<musashi> but not the gentoo people :)
<tiborio> is the space guaranteed? nealmcb
<nealmcb> [agreed] nealmcb will check it out a bit more then post to the list about jan 12th ubucon at google
<MootBot> AGREED received:  nealmcb will check it out a bit more then post to the list about jan 12th ubucon at google
<nealmcb> tiborio: they are very helpful, but specific dates need to be worked out
<MitchM> idea -> all hail mitchm ! (Meeting closing?)
<musashi> already?
<nealmcb> [topic] more agenda items?
<MootBot> New Topic:  more agenda items?
<MitchM> -1 : done with topics.
<tiborio> about the leadership?? ;-)
<MitchM> i'm bringing that to the list
<nealmcb> tiborio: specifically?
<MitchM> aye; specifics?
<tiborio> never mind just kidding. :-)
<nealmcb> the emperor has no clothes!  [well we don't know, do we :-)
<MitchM> :D
<nealmcb> but the emperor doesn't have an irc cloak :-)
<musashi> emperor == MitchM ?
 * nealmcb nods
<nealmcb> "/whois mitchm"
<nealmcb> anything else folks?
<MitchM> n=mitchmah@unaffiliated/MitchM
<MitchM> :DS
<musashi> we can get a cloak right? just need to know where to ask and how
<MitchM> you have to have the 'contacts'
<MitchM> :D
<tiborio> nothing else here :)
<musashi> well, ubuntu members get one
<nealmcb> "/whois mitchm"
<nealmcb> much better....
<Whelpo> instead of shirts we should have gone for cloaks?
<MitchM> :D
<musashi> MitchM, is our leader
<nealmcb> anyone can get a cloak, but special cloaks have special requirements
<nealmcb> Whelpo: great idea.  the goth look?
<musashi> i want an invisibility cloak. that would be cool
<nealmcb> or white cloaks?
<MitchM> :D
<nealmcb> time for #endmeeting?
<MitchM> [:end:]
<MitchM> *nods*
<nealmcb> #endmeeting?
<nealmcb> #endmeeting
<MitchM> off-topic to -> -colorado
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 03:03.
<nealmcb> utc
<MitchM> thanks everyone :D
<tiborio> thank you all
<musashi> yep-er-oni
<MitchM> nealmcb, can you post a link to the meeting notes in our topic?
 * nealmcb cheers for a quick meeting!
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<nealmcb> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071127_0200.html
<kraut> moin
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 14:00: Art Team
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 29 Nov 07:00: Desktop Team Development | 01 Dec 12:00: Art Team
<nealmcb> unscheduled server team meeting in 3 minutes....
<sommer> nealmcb: hey
<nealmcb> sommer: howdy!
<nijaba> hello
<dendrobates> hi all.
<nealmcb> thanks for the doc team commit
<sommer> nealmcb: no problem at all
<nealmcb> I just hope the gurus agree - and a more definitive statement on the lack of need for commercial certs for email would be nice
<mathiaz> hi all !
 * coffeedude waves to *
 * ogra lurks
<dholbach> hey nealmcb
<nealmcb> mathiaz: at the beginning of the meeting I suggest the first topic be "attendance" in which people say their names - that will help mootbot keep attendance and help improve communication and let us know who is here
 * nealmcb hugs dholbach
<dendrobates> mathiaz will be running the meeting today, but I am here, just preoccupied.
 * dholbach hugs nealmcb back :)))
<mathiaz> nealmcb: mootboot keeps track of who talks during the meeting.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: it generates such a list at the end of the meeting.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: right - and attendance gives folks a chance to say they were here even if they don't otherwise have something to say
<mathiaz> nealmcb: moreover people can arrive late withouth being noticed.
<nijaba> mathiaz: I think nealmcb meant real names
<nealmcb> that too
<mathiaz> nijaba: irc nicknames make more sense I think.
<nealmcb> e.g. valuable lurkers like ogra :-)
<ogra> :)
<nealmcb> mathiaz: well the nick would be saying the name so we'd have both
<mathiaz> ok. let's get started then.
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * soren wanders in (confused)
<mathiaz> as suggested by nealmcb: who's around ?
<nealmcb> Neal McBurnett
<nijaba> Nicolas Barcet
<soren> Soren Hansen
<sommer> Adam Sommer
 * ScottK is here
<coffeedude> Jerry Carter
<mathiaz> Mathias Gug
<dendrobates> Rick Clark
<ScottK> ivoks sent regrets in the agenda, so he gets all the actions.
<soren> \o/
<mathiaz> Today's agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> There isn't so much for now.
<mathiaz> Anyone wants to add an item for discussion ?
<soren> We need testing of the server stuff here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html  kthxbye
<soren> I just wanted to shout that. No discussion. Just do it. :)
<coffeedude> mathiaz: re: the LDAP client tools I signed up for at UDS...
<soren> coffeedude: Are the done? Whee!
<coffeedude> soren: nope.
<nxvl_work> soren: yes sir!
<soren> aw..
<coffeedude> mathiaz: it will be a few more weeks before I can find the time.  But still on the list.
<coffeedude> mathiaz: do we have a spec up?
<mathiaz> coffeedude: ok.
<mathiaz> coffeedude: I think there is one somewhere.
<coffeedude> mathiaz: I'll follow up after the meeting and track it down.
<mathiaz> dendrobates was supposed to draft the client side of the ldap integration.
<ScottK> When can we start doing MIR for stuff on the Hardy package list spec?
<coffeedude> mathiaz: fair enough.  I'll chat with dendrobates later then.
<mathiaz> ScottK: that one of the spec too.
<mathiaz> Ok so - let's move on to the next topic
<ScottK> mathiaz: Yes.  So when can we do the MIR?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
 * nealmcb forgets what MIR is, besides peace
<soren> And world.
<ScottK> Main Inclusion Request
<soren> Report.
<ScottK> Yeah.  That
<mathiaz> Last meeting log: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071120
<soren> We fixed the sudo bug thing.
<mathiaz> Re sudo bug discussion: fixed !
<soren> Er... Well... We found it.
<soren> And made an ammendment to the release notes about not using the "no config" option for postfix.
<mathiaz> soren: yes...
<nealmcb> should we talk about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postgrey/+bug/135038
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135038 in db4.4 "postgrey fails regularly : "fatal: Can't call method "txn_commit" on an undefined value at /usr/sbin/postgrey line 223." (dup-of: 153996)" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [Unknown,Fix released]
<mathiaz> I've spent some time working on the Ruby On Rails spec
<jdstrand> soren: is the installer fixed for hardy?
<soren> jdstrand: Yes.
<mathiaz> it has been approved.
<jdstrand> soren: praise be to soren :)
<mathiaz> nijaba: what about your JeOS tutorial ?
<zul> hey
<nijaba> mathiaz: first draft in review
<mathiaz> nijaba: where ?
<soren> It's awaiting my review. Just like 27.000 other things. But I'm not bitter.
<nijaba> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS
<mathiaz> ivoks started to work on dovecot+postfix integration.
<nealmcb> nijaba: cool - I'll look at it!!
<mathiaz> the proposal is to use a postinst script in the mail-server task.
<ScottK> mathiaz: I asked a guy I work with on a consulting project who does lots of Ruby stuff to look at the spec and he said, "It's on the right track" - meaning good enough he didn't think he needed to invest time in making it better.
<mathiaz> ScottK: excellent ! Thanks.
 * ScottK would like to throw in some praise for ivoks on dovecot + postfix.  It's good and important work he's doing.
<dendrobates> nijaba: I read through it, great job!
<nijaba> dendrobates: thanks
<mathiaz> Ok. Seems that last meeting actions were taken.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
<nijaba> I dd find out that lvm has a problem in JeOS in the process of writing the tuto
<mathiaz> nijaba: did you filed a bug ?
<nijaba> soren says that it is in the seed but not in the package list
<nijaba> nope, soren said not necessary...  should I ?
<mathiaz> nijaba: I don't think so.
<soren> I think it's pointless.
<mathiaz> The roadmap can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<nealmcb> is it fixed?
<nijaba> in the tuto: yes
<mathiaz> I've started to update the wiki page wrt the plan for Hardy.
<soren> We're going to completely redo the cd building stuff for it.
<soren> ...and the bug is in the old cd building system.
<nealmcb> so is it just an iso problem?
<soren> Er.. Yes.
<nealmcb> not ubuntu-jeos-builder?
<soren> No. (Maybe now you see why it's a good idea to rename one of those)
<nealmcb> well the whole point of jeos is that there are lots - one per application in some sense.  so maybe the iso shouldn't be jeos?
<sommer> mathiaz: it may be a good idea to add something about ivoks postfix+dovecot work to the packager corner.
<nealmcb> but I'm happy for both to be jeos - enough jeos for all.  but I'll read the wiki and think some more
<mathiaz> sommer: good idea.
<mathiaz> sommer: wanna add it ?
<sommer> sure will do
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to add a section about dovecot+postfix in packager section of the roadmap.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to add a section about dovecot+postfix in packager section of the roadmap.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I've seen your proposal for the factoids.
<nealmcb> :-)
<nealmcb> more to come, but that is a start for the mail-related ones
<mathiaz> nealmcb: when do you plan to add them to ubotu ?
<nealmcb> as soon as ScottK or lamont or some guru says they look ok
<soren> As I wrote in my e-mail half an hour ago, I don't see any particular reason why we can't just add them now. Changing them later is easy, afaik?
<mathiaz> soren: yes. I've done that already.
<nealmcb> sounds good
<soren> mathiaz: Er.. I just tried in #ubuntu-server? No go.
<soren> mathiaz: Or are we talking about different things?
<nealmcb> mathiaz: what is it you did?
<mathiaz> soren: I didn't add the factoids
<mathiaz> I meant that I already fixed some entries a couple of weeks ago and that it was a simple process.
<soren> mathiaz: Oh!
<nealmcb> good
<ScottK> There was a fun thread on postfix-users today (speaking of factoids makes me think of webmin) http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/postfix/2007-11/1324.html
<soren> Great. In that case, just add them. We'll change them as we go along. There's not need to bureaucratise it :)
<mathiaz> nealmcb: up for that ^^ ?
<nealmcb> yup
<lamont> nealmcb: hip deep in day-job stuff right now, I'll make time this week to review that
<nealmcb> lamont: thanks
<nealmcb> bother, those day jobs :-)
<mathiaz> sommer: what are you plan for the server guide ?
<mathiaz> sommer: is the section about ServerGuide for Hardy still relevant ?
<sommer> mathiaz: currently working on updating the DNS seciton.
<sommer> yes, I'm not sure about Paul's link though
<sommer> also ScottK and lamont are in the process of reviewing a Mail Filtering section.
<mathiaz> sommer: could you cleanup the help.ubuntu.com section also ?
<ScottK> For some definition of "in the process" that means I'm planning on doing it.
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, no problem
<mathiaz> sommer: so that we have more visibility on what needs to be done.
<mathiaz> sommer: you could also add new ones, so that people can start contributing if they're interested.
<sommer> mathiaz: back before the Gutsy release there was sort of a "theme" as far as bugs go... are we going to continue that?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to update the section about wiki page on help.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to update the section about wiki page on help.ubuntu.com
<sommer> because I could update the h.u.c section based on that
<mathiaz> sommer: hum... That would be a good idea.
<nealmcb> I guess we need to get some web site admins to help with https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/122297
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 122297 in ubuntu-doc "Server Guide draft has higher Google rank than released version" [Medium,Confirmed]
<lamont> nealmcb: send me a pointer to the factoids, ok?
<nealmcb> lamont: you bet
<mathiaz> sommer: I've added a section to triage samba bugs.
<mathiaz> sommer: may be you could list wiki pages on h.u.c related to samba that needs to be updated ?
<sommer> sure, sounds good to me
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer add samba related pages from h.u.c that needs to be cleaned up.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer add samba related pages from h.u.c that needs to be cleaned up.
<mathiaz> For the developer corner, I've removed the old spec from Gutsy.
<mathiaz> I'll add the new specs we're working on for Hardy.
<mathiaz> ScottK: That will include the MIR spec.
<ScottK> nealmcb: Surely that's invalid as a bug.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmpa with the specs for hardy.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmpa with the specs for hardy.
<ScottK> mathiaz: So how do I know when to start working on actually doing the MIR?
<nealmcb> website bug?  the bad pages should redirect or link to somewhere useful
<mathiaz> ScottK: the plan is to create a wiki page with the list of MIR we wanna do.
<ScottK> I don't think Google's ranking of pages is a valid bug.
<ScottK> mathiaz: I thought we had that already from UDS?
<mathiaz> ScottK: and then start doing them :)
<nealmcb> ScottK: the point is that our website shows outdated information, and people searching for info should get good info
<mathiaz> ScottK: yes. There was a lot of them. We just need to create/update the wiki page so that we can track correctly what has been done.
<ScottK> mathiaz: OK.
<ScottK> nealmcb: OK.  I just looked at the title of the bug.
<mathiaz> ScottK: OTOH it should not stop you from writing MIR
<nealmcb> and there are things we can do to improve the rank of good pages
<ScottK> mathiaz: OK.  That's what I wanted to hear.
<nealmcb> like site maps
<mathiaz> ScottK: Anyone can write a MIR.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Yes, I know. I've done them before, just didn't want to get ahead of the plan.
<nijaba> mathiaz: about MIR, do you want me to change the spec to a table with owner and status for each package ?
<mathiaz> nijaba: that would be great !
<nijaba> I'll do it tonight then
<ScottK> nijaba: Would you put me down for amavisd-new?
<nijaba> ScottK: sure
<ScottK> Thanks
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba will update the MIR spec to make it easy to track the state of writting the MIRs.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba will update the MIR spec to make it easy to track the state of writting the MIRs.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ScottK will write the amavisd-new MIR.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK will write the amavisd-new MIR.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mathiaz> nealmcb: you mentionned a postgrey bug
<nealmcb> ahh - any other business....
<soren> Did I mention http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html ?
<nealmcb> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postgrey/+bug/135038
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135038 in db4.4 "postgrey fails regularly : "fatal: Can't call method "txn_commit" on an undefined value at /usr/sbin/postgrey line 223." (dup-of: 153996)" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [Unknown,Fix released]
<mathiaz> soren: I'm not sure... But better more than never :)
<nealmcb> I'd love lamont to look at that - db4.4 bug that also affects svn
<soren> mathiaz: Yeah, totally. I really wasn't sure if I had already brought up that we need to test the stuff on  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<sommer> soren: just an fyi... I bookmarked the link
 * soren hugs sommer
<mathiaz> soren: The link should be added to the server roadmap then.
<nealmcb> and maybe apache, etc.  maybe needs an sru?  lamont added the patch that is proposed to be reverted
<nijaba> soren: I think that you already mentioned that we need to test the stuff on  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
 * nijaba waves at kees
<soren> nijaba: Oh, good. I really wouldn't be good if we forgot to talk about  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html, so it's good that I remembered to mention http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html.
<nealmcb> soren: what was that url again?
<lamont> nealmcb: I feel no ownership for apache...
<soren> I forget :(
<sommer> lol
<nealmcb> lamont: it was a db4.4 patch
<nealmcb> to default to posix threads or something
<lamont> that'd be a doko question
<nealmcb> ok
 * lamont was just a puppet
 * nealmcb has a hard time picturing that, but moves on :-)
<mathiaz> Anyone wants to add something ?
<nijaba> just for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6L51uZjaZU
 * soren resists the tempatation to bring up http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html again
<nealmcb> nijaba: what is the history of that video?
<nijaba> nealmcb: we are running a test on some web site in NA to see how people respond to adds
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<nealmcb> nijaba: cute :-)
<mathiaz> Do we need another meeting next week ?
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think frequent short meetings are good.
<nijaba> nealmcb: I don't like that one as much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkMlCeDu-0c
<mathiaz> We should have the lest of specs for Hardy.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Do we need an action on the db4.4 bug?
<mathiaz> ScottK: what would be needed ?
<ScottK> Fixing it.
<nealmcb> someone who knows hime contacting doku?
<ScottK> That or hounding doko until he fixes it.
<nealmcb> preparing an sru?
<nealmcb> or is that different?
<nijaba> don't forget that we also need doku for idedtea
<nealmcb> Sure - I'll have a refill!
<ScottK> nealmcb: We'd need a patch and then someone would need to fix Hardy (assuming it's broken too) and then an SRU.
<mathiaz> ScottK: Is the bug fixed in Hardy ?
<ScottK> mathiaz: I've no idea.
<nealmcb> the patch is there
<nealmcb> I don't think it is in hardy
<mathiaz> ScottK: yes. First it needs to be fixed in Hardy (which is probably the case as debian fixed it.
<ScottK> mathiaz: It's in Main, so I don't worry about it.
<nealmcb> it is a 2line patch to revert a previous patch
 * ScottK looks around for a core-dev
<mathiaz> nealmcb: so first it needs to be fixed in hardy.
<nealmcb> what I don't know is why folks wanted the original patch - maybe performance with threads?
<nealmcb> fixed in debian I think
<mathiaz> ok. We're running out of time.
<mathiaz> Next meeting: next week, same time, same place ?
<sommer> sounds good to me
<nealmcb> yeah
<ScottK> nealmcb: On your factoid list, I don't think you should use the word default since none of them are in fact installed by default.
<nealmcb> ScottK: good point
<ScottK> mathiaz: Who's following up on db4.4?
<nealmcb> soren - 27001?
<nealmcb> :-)
<soren> :(
<mathiaz> ScottK: I'll have a look into it.
<nealmcb> :-)
<ScottK> nealmcb: Also, I'd mention Postfix and Mail Tranfer Agent in there too
<ScottK> mathiaz: Thanks.
 * soren hugs mathiaz
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to follow up on bug 153996
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153996
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to follow up on bug 153996
<nealmcb> ScottK: I talk about them - where are you looking?
<nealmcb> ahh - full factoids for them?
<ScottK> nealmcb: At the message you sent to the ML.
<mathiaz> Next meeting: next week, same time, same place.
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:59.
<nealmcb> thanks all!
<mathiaz> Thanks all - happy merging !
<nijaba> thanks, see you next week!
<sommer> later all
 * jdstrand wave
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-28
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<kraut> moin
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 29 Nov 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 30 Nov 00:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 03:00: Art Team | 05 Dec 00:00: Server Team meeting
<flint> ogra, Nice collection of Edubuntu video by the guy in Ohio...
<ogra> yeah
<flint> ogra, you did good.  BTW is the Edubuntu mafia meeting? (I have learned to distrust the Fridge :^)
<ogra> no idea when, but it should be today :)
<stgraber> I'm not sure but I think this one is a late one
<flint> stgraber, thanks, I can get to the early ones, the late ones elude me...
<flint> ogra, yea you gotta run with those videos... Maybe sync the docs up with the video?
<flint> ogra, you know me, just here to cause trouble!
<ogra> flint, dtrask already said he'd look into fleshing out the wiki
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
 * bdmurray looks around
 * heno waves to bdmurray
<pedro_> good day!
<nand> hi!
<heno> morning!
<ogasawara> hello :)
<calc> hello
<heno> Hi all
<bdmurray> greetings and salutations!
<heno> calc: are we clashing with a platform meeting again? :/
<heno> or are you here for QA?
<calc> oh i am probably in the wrong channel, oops :)
<heno> :)
 * calc runs away ;-)
<heno> how is the NM bug day going?
<pedro_> heno: is going well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20071128
<pedro_> a bit slow
<heno> right, I'll join in as well after this
<bdmurray> well I just woke up
<ogasawara> I'm just getting started for the day here
<heno> let do a short meeting then
<bdmurray> pedro_: do you have a stock reply for new ones?
<heno> indeed, team OR is quite time shifted
 * bdmurray is happy to move to a better tz
<heno> (says heno sitting nearly on the prime meridian ;) )
<pedro_> bdmurray: no i don't, I've just asked for the log files and point some other to debugging crashed procedures
<heno> ok, let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:05. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> [TOPIC] UDS activity report - I (heno) should write a summary of the QA sessions at UDS (but I wasn't there) Could those who were please send me 2-3 lines on the main results in QA from UDS?
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS activity report - I (heno) should write a summary of the QA sessions at UDS (but I wasn't there) Could those who were please send me 2-3 lines on the main results in QA from UDS?
<heno> just a few comments here in the meeting would be good even so I can scrape those together
<heno> I've been trying to pull this out of the air, but failing :/
<bdmurray> I've been quite impressed with how "TEST CASE:" in the description is taking off
<heno> oh, excellent!
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs says the most important stuff really
<heno> (now updated with short descriptions)
<heno> pedro_, ogasawara: any major take-away points from UDS?
<heno> besides the value of meeting everyone
<ogasawara> heno: for me just the feedback on the specs was the most important as well as networking with some of the non-canonical folks
<pedro_> well i do like a lot the graphs i'm really impressive with new ones :-)
<heno> ok. btw, this is intended for a post-UDS write-up to the community
<heno> agreed, much more clear
<heno> ok, thanks, I'll work from that
<heno> [TOPIC] Status of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations
<bdmurray> heno: I wrote mdz some bullet points for the UDS closing blurb and will forward them to you
<heno> I promised an update on this
<heno> bdmurray: excellent, just what I need
<heno> The nominated bugs for Gutsy are 290 now, down from 340 when I first looked at this
<heno> so a bit slow going still
<heno> ogasawara: Is it correct that I should basically close all 2.6.22 bugs as wontfix at this point?
<stgraber> hello
<bdmurray> I might be able to whip up a query that could help with the milestoned ones
<heno> (using a copy of your stock response)
<ogasawara> heno: pretty much unless they are security or major show stoppers
<heno> hello stgraber!
<pedro_> hey stephane!
<heno> ogasawara: ok, I've been too soft I guess
<bdmurray> I think with the 2.6.22 it would be best to ask them to test with Alpha 1 when it comes out
<heno> I'll add for them to email ogasawara with any complaints ;)
<ogasawara> :)
<heno> bdmurray: agree, though that is still 2.6.22 though right? or do we have .23 or .24 now?
<heno> ogasawara: ^
<heno> what is the current hardy kernel?
<ogasawara> 2.6.22
<ogasawara> I think, just a sec
<bdmurray> There is a 2.6.24 package now though
<bdmurray> with 0 bugs!
<pedro_> I'm using 2.6.22-14-generic on hardy
<heno> and possibly 4 users
<bdmurray> and 0 packages
<heno> ah
<heno> perhaps ask people to test when .24 is being distributed
<heno> and file against it
<ogasawara> yup, I've tagged them hardy-kernel-candidate
<heno> ogasawara: are you proceeding with that on the remaining Gutsy bugs?
<ogasawara> heno: yes
<heno> ok, cool
<heno> [TOPIC] Specs approved for Hardy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specs approved for Hardy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<heno> all the specs on that page are now approved
<heno> how should we track their progress within the team? Make it a regular topic in these meetings?
<stgraber> Yes, maybe having a spec status topic every 2 meetings
<ogasawara> sounds find with me
<ogasawara> s/find/fine
<pedro_> stgraber: +1
<bdmurray> +1
<heno> right. We also have a clash with the platform team for this meeting time+location every two weeks
<heno> that again raises the case for changing meeting times every 2 meetings
<heno> so that more people can attend
<heno> I'd propose a later meeting time every two weeks
<heno> attendance can be optional for those in awkward tz, like liw
<pedro_> how much later? a couple of hours?
<heno> right, stgraber you wanted 1800 or 1900?
<stgraber> 1900 is better, 1800 is ok
<heno> pedro_: does 1900 work for you?
<pedro_> heno: sure i don't have any problem with it :-)
<heno> ok, cool. I'll email liw about this (he's at a debian QA summit this week)
 * dholbach hugs the QA Mafia - you guys deserve it. :-)
 * heno hugs dholbach :)
<dholbach> :-)
<heno> ogasawara, bdmurray: you ok with 1900?
<ogasawara> heno: yup, works for me
<bdmurray> heno: no problems where
<heno> [AGREED] every other meeting, starting next week will be st 1900 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  every other meeting, starting next week will be st 1900 UTC
<bdmurray> . . . I am?
<heno> watch out for glitches in the matrix
<heno> [TOPIC] Alpha 1 ISO testing - There is no freeze this time, but the key images should get a basic sanity test (basically check that they boot)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 ISO testing - There is no freeze this time, but the key images should get a basic sanity test (basically check that they boot)
<bdmurray> deja vu
<heno> all over again
<stgraber> btw, fridge should be updated (that way I'll have them added to my evolution, ical rocks)
<heno> the fridge has a poor memory
<heno> as do I, which makes for a poor combination
<heno> any volunteers to make sure the fridge is updated with this?
<heno> it remembers 4 weeks at a time or something
<pedro_> we need to contact corey?
<heno> ok, I'll email the editors and see if that's improved
<pedro_> ah ok
<heno> the editors address I think
<heno> ok, alpha 1 testing
<heno> just pinged slangasek to get his view on what sort of testing level we want for this
<heno> and when it's estimated due
<heno> mhz: greetings!
<stgraber> ok, I'm renamming some milestones on the tracker and will add the Hardy Alpha 1 one just after that
<mhz> hey heno!
<heno> stgraber: great thanks
<heno> I'll ask steve when I catch him and post to the QA list
<stgraber> as we'll now use Alpha and no funny names, it'll be : Hardy Alpha X and I'm renamming Gutsy's to Gutsy Tribe X
<heno> bug again, we'll just do some light testing of this one
<heno> and hour or so of work from each of us on Friday/Monday should do
<heno> any other topics?
<bdmurray> I wanted to mention a tip I rediscoverd
<stgraber> I had a phone call with nand (Nicolas) and we decided that we'll try to have a working improved QA-Poll and QA-Tracker for early 2008
 * nand waves
<heno> stgraber, nand: sounds good
<heno> bdmurray: go ahead
<stgraber> currently all the work is done in a devel branch, that's lot of work for re-organizing everything and there will be a lot of things that will be broken for some time there
<heno> right
<bdmurray> So I've stopped assigning bugs to myself that are Incomplete but then it becomes more challenging to find bugs that are Incomplete and 4 weeks old  and without a response
<bdmurray> Unless you have a specific package to query on then you can do something like 'bugnumbers -p linux-source-2.6.22 --status Incomplete --lc="u:brian-murray&d:2007-10-26"
<heno> where --lc is 'last comment' I take it
<bdmurray> heno: that is correct
<bdmurray> This could be handy 4 weeks after today with n-m bugs
<heno> indeed, but with no package?
<heno> the problem becomes churn time I guess
<bdmurray> The janitor should do this automatically someday . . .
<heno> bdmurray: have you filed a wishlist bug for that?
<bdmurray> In regards to "no package" if you mean bugs without a package there are ways around it
<heno> no, I mean when you don't want to specify a pkg
<heno> ok, I think we are done
<bdmurray> I haven't tried it yet but "-l https://bugs.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/+commentedbugs" instead of -p should work
<bdmurray> heno: what is the status of qa.ubuntu.com?
<heno> bdmurray: in limbo (as always). I'll go to London on Tuesday and try to corner the IS team :)
<heno> we are just waiting for a dedicated server
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:47.
<heno> stgraber asks me every week, and I rarely have good answers :(
<stgraber> :)
<bdmurray> when I talked to elmo at UDS he thought it was pretty straight forward
<heno> but I don't know of any blockers now apart from IS time and attention
<heno> bdmurray: it is!
<bdmurray> heno: the "-l" bit worked thanks!
<bdmurray> It seems there are some I can close
<heno> cool
 * heno goes to write up a meeting summary while it's fresh
<bdmurray> Do we have a package for next Wednesday?
<bdmurray> Maybe ubiquity or Xorg?
<pedro_> which one have more bugs at the moment?
 * heno half-jokingly suggests https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+nominations
<bdmurray> xorg has 205 new
<heno> that question should perhaps be a regular topic at the meeting too
<bdmurray> ubiquity 350
<pedro_> let's go for ubiquity then
<bdmurray> that seems to settle that one
<bdmurray> I'm waiting on one other possibilty for next week with the US LoCo Education stuff
<bdmurray> But if that doesn't pan out then we'll do ubiquity
<ogasawara> bdmurray: what channel is the US LoCo triage thing tonight?
<heno> if so let's make sure Evan is notified so he can be around
<bdmurray> ogasawara: #ubuntu-us
<heno> was asac informed of today's bugday?
<stgraber> yes
<heno> ok good
<bdmurray> I'll make a wider announcement for next week tomorrow or Friday
<bdmurray> The last 2 were rather short notice
<stgraber> bdmurray: btw, about network-manager what do you think of adding a "vpn" tag ? as the network-manager can also be used as VPN client and then ~20% of the bugs are related to the VPN part
<bdmurray> stgraber: that sounds great!  could you add it to the 20071128 wiki?
<stgraber> sure
<highvoltage> *bong*
 * RichEd waves to highvoltage ogra LaserJock stgraber 
<RichEd> and hi effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> RichEd,  ;)
<LaserJock> o/
 * highvoltage also waves and says hi to all the edubuntero's
 * RichEd grabs his tea while we wait for the others to surface
<LaserJock> man, somehow I can't seem to upload a package under 30MB :/
<highvoltage> you like to work with big packages?
 * RichEd winks to highvoltage ;)
<highvoltage> it's not always the size of a package that ocunts
 * highvoltage could've delivered it better if he was more awake first time
 * LaserJock was gonna say something like "you would know" but decides not to
<highvoltage> hey!!!
<RichEd> highvoltage: was that misspelling above freudian ?
<RichEd> sounds irish
<RichEd> ogra: ding ?
<LaserJock> anyway...
<highvoltage> RichEd: oops, I haven't even noticed, no just uncordinated fingers
<LaserJock> why are our Edubuntu meetings alway go downhill when highvoltage is around?
<LaserJock> s/are/do/
<RichEd> it's the shock
<highvoltage> *bzzzt*
<LaserJock> must be something happens when two south african's get together on IRC
<highvoltage> ogratjie!!!
<RichEd> well if highvoltage is tired, and ogra is not in ... let's start with community so highvoltage can fall asleep sooner
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you should see our local lug channel!
<RichEd> highvoltage: tell us about the drupal site
<highvoltage> RichEd: new'ish theming based on fridge theme is at http://jono.co.za/drupal
<highvoltage> I want to put it on the edubuntu.org site, but awaiting on Znarl/elmo just to fix some simple permissions
<highvoltage> (feel free to nudge them on, there is an issue for this on RT)
<RichEd> highvoltage: and will the existing content all fit into the new theme ?
<highvoltage> then it could get wrapped over the current edubuntu.org
<RichEd> any reworking required ?
<highvoltage> RichEd: most of it, only minor adjustments will have to be made
<highvoltage> RichEd: the front page will have some quick remaking, with some inspiration from the xubuntu.org site and ubuntu.com
<RichEd> and on a sustaining interest, should we rework some of the front pages to give updated content and new language ...
<RichEd> otherwise people may see the new theme as a paint job over the old  body
<highvoltage> RichEd: but as soon as I have that permissions right again, I cna do the initial facelisft
<highvoltage> RichEd: well, pips1 has always said that we should get the frontpage a dynamic page
<RichEd> may as well use the new look & feel to launch new refreshed content
<highvoltage> RichEd: I think we're at a stage where we're ready for that
 * LaserJock wants to see the youtube videos on  the front page
<RichEd> so ... when do you think you'll be ready to go with the new theme, and then we can work towards that date for content revamping  ?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: seriously? do you have any candidate videos?
<RichEd> LaserJock: me no like youtube video screens on a default page
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yes, somebody did like 10 videos that are awesome
<LaserJock> RichEd: no?
<RichEd> but a high prominence link to them ... yes
<LaserJock> but people want bling!! :-)
<highvoltage> RichEd: we were ready the past weekend. we can get going as soon as the canonical-sysadmins spent 2 mins on that server
<LaserJock> nothing says "serious professional OS" like youtube videos on the frontpage
<LaserJock> ;-)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: perhaps a big videos-button on the frontpage that contain embedded videos?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: hah
<RichEd> we can go with a vote ... but i have a hangup about 7000 feet long pages on myspace with 345 youtube screens
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yeah, I've done it with Fridge
<RichEd> makes my firefox slow downnnnnn
<LaserJock> RichEd: well, it can be done right you know
<highvoltage> RichEd: one of Jane's pages?
 * highvoltage ducks
<LaserJock> hehe
<RichEd> highvoltage: she is next to me ... bust dude
<highvoltage> hehe!
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what are these big uploads? kde-edu?
<RichEd> highvoltage: > as soon as the canonical-sysadmins spent 2 mins on that server < you mean it will change when they do, or is that a "staging server" test ?
<LaserJock> I did gcompris
<LaserJock> apparently I screwed up gcompris for gutsy
<highvoltage> RichEd: when they do it, I can upload that theme, will take about 5 minutes max, then another 20 mins or so just making sure everything fits in
<LaserJock> and left it without translations or something like that
<LaserJock> so I'm getting everything fixed up
<highvoltage> RichEd: doing a basic revamp of the frontpage to look nice with the theme... maybe an hour or so
<highvoltage> RichEd: and then making things more dynamic, I think that will be an ongoing process
<highvoltage> RichEd: lots of incremental changes to make it more dynamic would be good
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I've had a 80MB upload 36MB upload and if I do KDE Edu ~ 30MB upload
<highvoltage> LaserJock: shew
<LaserJock> highvoltage: good think I'm not in AU
<LaserJock> I just let my DSL go for a while
<highvoltage> AU?
<LaserJock> australia and their capped bandwidth
<highvoltage> ah. we have that here too. and our caps are even lower than in .au
<highvoltage> typical dsl accounts are capped at 2GB or 3GB a month (total for up and down)
<LaserJock> yucky
<RichEd> highvoltage: well can we work towards a specific "release date" and chat about the content update & rework before then ?
<highvoltage> yeah I attended a protest against our telkom monopoly recently. most people don't care about doing anything about it though
<LaserJock> RichEd: it entiredly depends on sysadmins
<highvoltage> RichEd: we could, but I don't know how long the sysadmins will take
<LaserJock> RichEd: could be days, could be months :-)
<highvoltage> RichEd: should we target it for Wednesday next week?
<RichEd> LaserJock: well then I'd prefer to set a date with them as an official release, and get it queued up for then
<highvoltage> RichEd: that gives us a week, to be safe
<highvoltage> RichEd: I'll do some more nagging tomorrow, hopefully they can do it then
<highvoltage> Znarl is nice and gives in to pressude easily. :)
<highvoltage> pressure, even
<RichEd> highvoltage: could we make it 2 weeks ... i'd like to add a few sections ... as well as revamp the old stuff
<highvoltage> RichEd: yep
<RichEd> I want a high prominence section on "Why Edubuntu"
<RichEd> answered from the perspective of each:
<RichEd> - a student
<RichEd> - a teacher
<RichEd> - a school
<RichEd> - a education district
<RichEd> - an OEM system builder
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, that sounds like a vgraeat idea
<highvoltage> wil you gather the perspectives?
<RichEd> not a huge amount of work, but would like to get the basic value points in place\
<highvoltage> *will
<RichEd> highvoltage: yep ... there is obviously a core set of values ...
<RichEd> * free bundled apps
<RichEd> * ease of use
<RichEd> * free os
<RichEd> so those will be common points, but things like the OEM have a few special perspectives ...
<LaserJock> an edubuntu-users email could probably generate some ideas
<highvoltage> good idea, and it will also draw in the larger community to participate in this
<RichEd> i.e. you can legally pre-install Ubuntu and ship your machines for the same price but much higher purchaser value (and hence demand) but also a legal answer to those B*sh sponsored MSFT piracy cops
<RichEd> and also want to add a nice font page mini-pic and link to "meet the edubuntu ambassador"
<highvoltage> oh dear.
<RichEd> :)
<RichEd> this is my theory ... bear with me for a min:
<RichEd> we need a smooth process to uptake new volunteer effort ...
<RichEd> but at the moment ... we do not have this nice and friendly ...
<highvoltage> hmm, currently we have virtually no process,it's somtheing I've thought about, but have not put enought effort into
<RichEd> so if we have a human interface, (highvoltage), with a nice pic and a little nackground as to who you are ... then people will see you as being aproachable
<RichEd> *background not nackground
<RichEd> so if someone via email or in the channel says: "would love to help" .. we can send them to you ...
<highvoltage> I wouldn't mind doing that, but won't people think I'm an asshole for having a pic up there? it's like people who have their faces on business cards
<RichEd> so that you can guide them as to where they fit
<highvoltage> hmmm...
<RichEd> highvoltage: we need a welcome person, who a schoolteacher or learner would be happy to send an email to
<highvoltage> ok, I think we can make it work
<highvoltage> yeah, people seem to be real happy to send me emails *sigh*
<highvoltage> :p
<RichEd> this amount of involvement is temporary ... we use you while we build a decent welcome room
<highvoltage> ok, sounds interesting, I think we can make it work
<highvoltage> a welcome room, that sounds interesting
<RichEd> i can also ask for a unique email address so you can filter the mails ...
<RichEd> or we could even use a form on the site with some checkboxes to identify interest / skill
<highvoltage> that's actually a very good idea
<RichEd> that would do some pre-processing
<highvoltage> an ambassador@edubuntu.org would work well,because if someone needs to take over, the email can just redirect to the new person in the future
<RichEd> you are a ( ) student ( ) teacher ( ) activist
<RichEd> highvoltage: (yep thought of that)
<RichEd> i can [ ] attend events [ ] do artwork [ ] program
<highvoltage> yes, it would be nice to build up a matrix of skills that we have in the community
<RichEd> that may help with the building of an automated process / or welcome room (page i mean) with the right volunteer sections
<RichEd> if someone sees a task and thinks "hey I could do that" we have more chance of them wanting to join in
<highvoltage> yes, I thought that a "welcome room" would be nice to introduce new people to the team
<highvoltage> I mean, everyone wants to know who LaserJock is
<highvoltage> there could be pictures and mini-profiles of people who are currently/recently active in the welcome room
<RichEd> and also some profiles of other volunteers ... so people get to know what sort of people are in the community
<RichEd> snap
<highvoltage> yes, snap indeed
<RichEd> so ... that is what you and I can work on ... the formal process ... but unitl then we point people to you
<RichEd> *until
<highvoltage> ok
<LaserJock> highvoltage: haha, nobody cares about who I am :-)
<RichEd> ambassador@edubuntu.org can then pass on to someone else, and you can mentor them
<highvoltage> people who have emailed us so far has always been nice so far, that's a good sign at least
<highvoltage> LaserJock: come on! everyone always asks about LaserJock!
<LaserJock> pfft
<LaserJock> ok, so I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for a sec
<highvoltage> LaserJock: go for it
<RichEd> I've also set up the following specs:
<RichEd> * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/education-wiki-people-and-group-pages
<LaserJock> 1) you gotta have mentors and things for people to do if they want to contribute
 * highvoltage was thinking the same thing, re #!
<LaserJock> 2) most people will use it as a support request/bug submission system
<highvoltage> #1
<RichEd> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/education-launchpad-groups
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yeah, but whatever you do, ever... people will try to use it for support!
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> to some degree
<LaserJock> but making it easy for people to do the wrong thing doesn't help
<highvoltage> LaserJock: at least, if we advertise it as a contributions thingy, then we can tell people how they can fix it themselves, and help getting it fixed in edubuntu itself. we could take advantage of it and use it to lure those people in
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I realise I'm being too optimistic there, but I just have to counter the devils advocate ;)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yeah
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what do you suggest?
<LaserJock> ok, so perhaps Ambassador is not the right terminology
<LaserJock> perhaps having this on a "How to help" page
<LaserJock> and calling it a Contribution Helpdesk or something
<RichEd> LaserJock: we can play with language, but my feeling is that people would like to "meet a real person" to engage first off
<LaserJock> I'm not sure we're set up for "give us your questions?"
<RichEd> being pointed to a list of options is far less immediate ...
<LaserJock> RichEd: unless that person is unresponsive and they get redirected around and around
<LaserJock> think of it as a call center
<LaserJock> it's nice to get a helpful person on the phone
<RichEd> you know if we are in the channel and someone says they would like to help, they are often busy with their own issues & problems
<LaserJock> it's real pain in the butt to get put on hold only to get get shoved around to different departments, etc.
<RichEd> sending them to a "contrubute list" can make them think ... cool i'll come back later to fill in the form
<RichEd> and never do
<RichEd> sending them to a real person has more chance of hooking them
<RichEd> (my opinion)
<LaserJock> maybe
<LaserJock> although my pessimistic view might be that people who can't figure out how to use a list are unlikely to contribut much
<highvoltage> this is an interesting discussion, but I need to get some sleep, have to be at client premisses real early tomorrow morning. perhaps we should think about this and discuss it again Friday'ish?
<RichEd> LaserJock: some people are timid ... not "un-useful"
<RichEd> highvoltage: fine ... no problem
<RichEd> ! ping ogra again !
<LaserJock> RichEd: agreed, but timidity can make them unuseful
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I think your points are completely valid, and if we address them properly, we could make things work
<LaserJock> so we shouldn't make it unnecessarily difficult for sure
<highvoltage> LaserJock: it's true that some people may be scared off by process and procedure, but we could do a little hand holding
<LaserJock> but we also have to look at gain vs. cost
<RichEd> LaserJock: so let's have a human there to judge their usefulness
<RichEd> and tell them to be brave and unafraid :)
<LaserJock> yes perhaps
<highvoltage> LaserJock: if they still feel that it's too much for them to be part of the community, then that's fine if they want to move on, we'll just have to find ways to maximise our retention rate
<LaserJock> I just don't think we maybe should invest a lot of effort into it initially
<highvoltage> LaserJock: and make sure that it's not becuase of problems caused on our side
<RichEd> general questions: so w.r.t. spec above and community revitalisting, how do we ensure that the launchpad groups are meaningful & keep them active ?
<LaserJock> if we suddenly find that there are a lot of peopel who want to help but got scared away we can do more
<highvoltage> LaserJock: start small... baby steps?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yep, baby steps
<somerville32> What team is this?
<LaserJock> RichEd: in general I'd say getting rid of a lot of the groups would help
<LaserJock> somerville32: Edubuntu
 * somerville32 has a question when you guys are done.
<highvoltage> RichEd: For the last 18 months, I've been meaning to go through all the groups and revive them, there are lots of people in those groups who have mailed me with some good ideas, but we haven't pulled them in quite yet
<RichEd> should we allow anyone to create any education groups, dead or alive, or expect certain standards or levels of activity
<highvoltage> LaserJock: *nod*
<LaserJock> basically we've got a lot of dead branches
<LaserJock> and you gotta do some trimming
<LaserJock> make sure the trunk is healthy
<highvoltage> RichEd: I thinkthings that haven't been active for 6 months can be closed down
<LaserJock> and then try again
<RichEd> can we expect that someone representing each group should attend a monthly meeting to share wat they are doing ?
<RichEd> *what
<highvoltage> RichEd: yes, do think so
<highvoltage> somerville32: fire away
<RichEd> or a quarterly "activity news report"
<RichEd> that sort of thing ...
<somerville32> highvoltage, Are you guys migrating to Xfce4?
<RichEd> a framework also is useful to get activity happening
<highvoltage> RichEd: perhaps smaller, more regular reports will be better, and then those could be compiled for bigger ones
<stgraber> either be present at the meeting, or e-mailing the ML but well showing some activity would be good
<highvoltage> somerville32: nope, there's a spec for an edubuntu with xfce
<highvoltage> somerville32: but it's not targeted for hardy yet, especially being a lts release and all
<RichEd> okay ... so give that all some thought ... and send me comments or add to the wiki spec pages
<LaserJock> somerville32: we ship Xfce4 in addition to our main DE
<somerville32> highvoltage, Are you guys going to renounce your derivative status and become a "module"?
<highvoltage> somerville32: although, lots of schools and educational projects do use xfce
<RichEd> no ogra for tech yet ... and i am also getting tired
<somerville32>  /addon
<RichEd> anyone with TECH reports / issues / questions
<highvoltage> somerville32: yes, an add-on, so I suppose using "edubuntu" with Xubuntu will become easier
<LaserJock> somerville32: sort of. I'd say it's still a derivative, but is more dependent on a base OS
<highvoltage> somerville32: but it will probably not be supported by Canonical
<highvoltage> RichEd: no further issues here, may I ring the bong?
<LaserJock> RichEd: I really don't think we have enough people to have much for reports, team leadership, etc.
<LaserJock> if the teams grow then fine, we can address it
<highvoltage> yeah. I think RichEd is thinking more long-term though. I can see where he's coming from.
<LaserJock> but creating a lot of structure initially is often a lot of wasted effort, IMO
<stgraber> RichEd: Can you also define the exact goal of the "Edubuntu Testers" group, is there any real reason to have those people there instead of the "Ubuntu Testing Team" ?
<highvoltage> RichEd: LaserJock is right, it's better to create structure on the fly as it's required. necessity being mother of invention and all that.
<RichEd> sorry ... got caught up for a sec ...
<highvoltage> stgraber: that's a valid question and believe it or not, there is actually a good answer too
<RichEd> about the groups ... the spec above is a prune process as LaserJock also intended ...
<highvoltage> stgraber: that team was created to address a lot of edubuntu-specific problems that was present at the time, LTSP at that stage was quite messy and required lots of testing, as well as some educational software, such as gcompris
<LaserJock> I'm afraid that lots of dead teams or teams of like 2 demanding weekly reports etc. actually are worse for growing a team
<RichEd> i just would also like some guidelines as to "expectations" around each edubuntu or education related group ...
<highvoltage> stgraber: that group is mostly obsolete now, and you're right, we can probably move the members over to the ubu-to0testerst teeam
<highvoltage> ubuntu testers team, even
<RichEd> we do not have to enforce hard rules with an iron law ... but to see a group created without any real description of their purpose or goal to me is not meaningful
<RichEd> and we get duplication ... as per stgraber testing query above ...
<RichEd> which is fragmentation and duplication of effort or intention
<stgraber> highvoltage: ok, because we (as the Ubuntu QA) try to build some kind of testers community who of course will start by testing their favourite variant of Ubuntu but then can also give a hand for others, so we are trying to merge everything into the Ubuntu Testing Team
<LaserJock> RichEd: I think getting rid of teams that don't have a functional purpose (ones that are just a group of people) would be a good idea
<RichEd> stgraber: yep ... edubuntu testing could be more around the desktop education package & application etc.
<RichEd> but h/w compliance can all move to ubuntu
<stgraber> having one mailing-list, one website and one IRC channel, so we can easily distribute the work and that'll be an important thing with a LTS ahead
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok, great. it would be nice if you could provide some input on how best we could get the team members from edubuntu testers into ubuntu testers, I'll give you a ping sometime during the next week or so
<LaserJock> my list of LP teams that should remain are: edubuntu-members, edubuntu-bugs, and edubuntu-website
<RichEd> LaserJock: also i'd like at least to say that each group should have a wiki page ... much like the loco temas
<RichEd> *teams
<LaserJock> I would stick with those 3 for now
<LaserJock> if it were me ;-)
<RichEd> explaining what their goal is, who they are, where they are based (if relevant) etc.
<stgraber> RichEd: right, I generally try to keep a list of people interested in testing the different part of Ubuntu + their hardware so when we have to test a new set of ISO we can easily ping them
<ogra> argh
<stgraber> RichEd: IIRC in the Testing team, I'm the only one with the required hardware to test Edubuntu LTSP, so we basically were two testers for Gutsy (ogra and me), having the others around in #ubuntu-testing would have make testing of edubuntu easier (if people in Edubuntu testers are actually active testers)
<stgraber> hi ogra
<stgraber> LaserJock: +1
<RichEd> LaserJock: https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-advocacy
 * ogra just noticed DST ... damned ... i was in other TZs the last meetings :/
<RichEd> * https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-school-support
<LaserJock> going from 13 teams (not counting loco stuff) down to 3 would help a lot
<LaserJock> RichEd: get rid of them :-)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: *nod*
<effie_jayx> RichEd,  is https://launchpad.net/~education-enthusiasts a very active team?
<LaserJock> basically, LP teams should *reflect* team activity, not be used to create it
<ogra> effie_jayx, its big and the last memeber got approved on nov 6th
<LaserJock> and they should be functional
<highvoltage> LaserJock: also, having lots of teams with the same people in them tend to not always work so nicely
<effie_jayx> :D
<ogra> so at least the team admin isnt dead
<stgraber> I would personally have : edubuntu-members, edubuntu-bugs, edubuntu-website, edubuntu-advocacy, edubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> highvoltage: and makes it look like nothing's happening because everything is spread out
<LaserJock> edubuntu-doc should go away, IMO
<LaserJock> I can sorta see edubuntu-advocacy but I'm not sure what the point is
<highvoltage> stgraber: we could probably have even less than that
<RichEd> effie_jayx: it is gaining momentum ... set up by an enthusiastic guy a while back
<highvoltage> LaserJock: perhaps we can also merge the advocacy into ubuntu marketing
<highvoltage> LaserJock: like with the testing
<RichEd> their wiki page is updating
<LaserJock> edubuntu-members houses info, -bugs is used as a bug contac, -website holds bzr branches for the website
<highvoltage> RichEd: I think teams like that who have good momentum and activity hsould continue
<stgraber> right, the only edubuntu specific bit of doc being LTSP and LTSP being integrated in Ubuntu, edubuntu-doc becomes useless
<RichEd> i've got an action set up to ping each group member set, one by one, asking for their aims and what they are up to
<highvoltage> RichEd: but a team should be more than a list of people
<LaserJock> if the LP team isn't functional then there's no reason to keep it right now
<RichEd> i'll note how many people respond or not
<RichEd> i'll also ask them to set up a wiki page ... with a set info framework
<RichEd> we can then look at their intentions and suggest consolidation where it maks sense
<RichEd> ... hi ogra ...
<LaserJock> RichEd: we can't just shut them down? :-)
<RichEd> ogra: we jumped into community and web site while you were not around
<ogra> not much for tech (i can do it in some sentences) so keep me for the end
 * RichEd kills the power to the laser agitator
<LaserJock> why not?
<LaserJock> dump the list of people on a wiki page is poof!
<RichEd> LaserJock: we don't want to p!$$ people off
<LaserJock> why would it do that?
<LaserJock> we're just moving the "team"
<ogra> but you shouldnt do without notifying the team members
<RichEd> we'll give them a chance to stand up and say what they are up to
<ogra> and at least get their opinion
<RichEd> if their group makes sense, then they can keep it, and we will understand who they are, and when it makes sense to send other people to join them
<LaserJock> RichEd: it's not a matter if they are active or not
<RichEd> LaserJock: ? what more ?
<LaserJock> it's that we shouldn't have 13 team on launchpad that don't serve a functional purpose
<LaserJock> it's just a list of people
<LaserJock> and for the sake of running a clean organization it's good to get rid of non-functional teams
<ogra> but they probably do stuff
<LaserJock> it's not a matter if the *people* do stuff
<ogra> how do you know how active they are if they dont work on LP
<LaserJock> it's a matter if the LP team does stuff
<ogra> they might communicate to a forum
<RichEd> ^ "<RichEd> if their group makes sense, then they can keep it, and we will understand who they are, and when it makes sense to send other people to join them"
<ogra> right
<RichEd> if their group ideals are covered by another group, we'll suggest consolidation
<ogra> we should discuss that on the -users list rather than in a meeting imhp
<ogra> *imho
<LaserJock> RichEd: bah, I'm not talking about the individual people or their goals
<ogra> that needs broader communication than just between the meeting participants
<LaserJock> I'm saying that an LP team should be used for more than just a list of people
<LaserJock> it gets in the way of real work
<RichEd> ogra: we got into a bit of detail here about the proess for pruning and regrowth
<RichEd> LaserJock: that's why i think each group should be required to have a wiki page ... according to a set template ...
 * ogra would be fine to keep the teams but have top teams to caegorize them in into subteams if all people would insist that they want to keep their group for example
<LaserJock> RichEd: and we should get rid of the LP teams
<RichEd> and a requirement to keep it up to date
<LaserJock> RichEd: wiki pages are great, LP teams are not, unless there is a functional purpose
<RichEd> with things like actions, events, how to help or share etc.
<ogra> but how do you prevent people from juts randomly starting new teams
<ogra> LP has no restriction at all
<RichEd> then we can see if they actually *do* stuff other than create groups
<LaserJock> the EC should handle that
<ogra> and we dont own the edu- namespace
<LaserJock> I think we can make a claim on that ;-)
<ogra> how is that ?
<LaserJock> we at *least* have an interest in edubuntu-*
<ogra> LP is an upstream tool
<LaserJock> right, and we are Edubuntu
<LaserJock> so people shouldn't have conflicting names
<ogra> if there are *any* edu projects from around the world we cant just tell them we own the edu anespace :)
<RichEd> ogra: agreed ... that's why i'd like to set up the "agreed principles" for ubuntu related education groups, and then when someone creates a new group, we can send an email saying:
<ogra> *namespace
<LaserJock> not edu
<LaserJock> edubuntu
<RichEd> "hi, we see you have created an education related ubuntu group"
<ogra> right
<ogra> communicate :)
<LaserJock> many of the groups we've created ourselves
<RichEd> please follow this wiki link to fill out the required info for your group ...
<ogra> but dont just shut the teams down :)
<LaserJock> we can at least shut those down easily
<ogra> true
<RichEd> and send a group representative to the next community meeting
<ogra> the ones we created can get thinned out
<ogra> but we shouldt do that to self formed teams
<LaserJock> no, I agree that that is not nice
<ogra> and i know there are some that formed through the mailing list for example
<ogra> and there *is* stuff going on even though not much
<RichEd> we can advise a group that it is being "reviewed" ... and let them speak up at a community meeting if they feel the group should not be culled
<LaserJock> but we should discourage it, IMO, and tell them they are better off with a ML and/or wiki page
<RichEd> if they can't attend a meeting to talk about it, the group is prolly not-useful
<ogra> depends
<LaserJock> but 13 LP teams is just nuts
<LaserJock> we have 2 core devs and a handful of contributors
<RichEd> LaserJock: i'll work through the: ping, response, review, prune process with you
<RichEd> i'll get the pinging done, ask for info, and then bring the responses to the table for a joint review
<RichEd> until then ... happy to let ogra go into tech ?
<LaserJock> oh sure
 * RichEd is getting droopy eyes
<ogra> well, 80% of my time was spent getting ltsp into shape ...
<ogra> which was mostly involving endless discussions on #ltsp among the three distros  ....
<ogra> i guess stgraber lured from time to time :)
<ogra> *lurked
<ogra> today i finally got a first package done but the fedora changes are not in yet, so everything can stil break heavily
<ogra> my work focus will be on educational packages and the edubuntu CD in the future ... while i havent discussed with cjwatson yet about the CD stuff
<ogra> my priorities are clearly on classmate development and maintaining the edu packages atm
<ogra> so i'm not sure the CD switch will happen right now until i have talked to colin
<ogra> next near target is the first alpha CD btw ...
<ogra> the seeds are in shape (in the old gutsy structure yet)
<ogra> theer are some probs with the CD buildsystem that are currently getting fixed (it forcefully builds gutsy CDs due to a bug)
<ogra> so the dailies you currently get on cdimage.u.c are actually gutsy final :)
<ogra> merges from debian are going on, i'm done so far with the exception of tuxtype and kino ... which i'll do tomorrow
<ogra> stgraber, has a 1.0.4 italc package for us :) italc 1.0.4 was just released :)
<ogra> thats about all i think
<ogra> questions ?
<ogra> oh, and an applause for LaserJock for gcompris merging :)
<ogra> thats hard work ....
<ogra> doesnt seem like ...
<LaserJock> ogra: awesome
<LaserJock> I'm having a little look at kstart right now
<LaserJock> and I'll see if I can't kill some KDE Edu bugs
 * RichEd claps for LaserJock & stgraber & ogra 
<RichEd> all 3 hard workers
<ogra> kstart ? kstars you mean ?
<LaserJock> ogra: yes, sorry, kstars
<ogra> LaserJock, note that we agreed with upstream to pull kdeedu4 in
<ogra> its considered stable
<LaserJock> into hardy?
<ogra> if the libs etc are there, yes
<LaserJock> Edubuntu hardy I mean?
<ogra> upstream says its stable ....
<ogra> the question is if we have the deps ready
<LaserJock> and not do KDE Edu3?
<ogra> if not we'll fall back to the old one
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> we'll I've run Kalzium 4
<LaserJock> and have been working with some of the apps needed
<LaserJock> s/apps/packages/
<LaserJock> if we can get the deps in I think people will be impressed with KDEEdu4
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> its pretty slick
<ogra> but hardy is LTS so i dont like to make any definitive statement
<stgraber> lighter as of RAM usage for what I've seen (less daemon/libs to load)
<ogra> yeah that as well
<ogra> and it uses svg everywhere which makes text in graphics 100% translatable
<LaserJock> ogra: well, we can see how many MIRs it would take :-)
<ogra> indeed
<LaserJock> I know a couple of them
<LaserJock> for Kalzium
<LaserJock> but for the others I have no idea
<LaserJock> shouldn't be too bad other than the actual KDE stuff
<ogra> i pinged colin
<ogra> no time :/
<ogra> i'll find out what we'Re allowed to do and should have more ifo abotu the CD stuff next meeting then
<Riddell> I've been told not to put parts of KDE 4 into main
<ogra> ok, thats a clear statement then
<ogra> :/
 * ogra is sad we agreed to upstream that we'd put it in :(
<Riddell> well, why does it need to be in main for edubuntu?
<ogra> to be on the CD
<ogra> i had to drop xfce today ...
<Riddell> CDs could be built from universe
<ogra> either edubuntu becomes unsupported and uses universe
<ogra> or we stay a supported distro and restrict ourselves to main
<ogra> i'D prefer the latter
<Riddell> I'm also told main isn't about supported any more
<ogra> right
 * ogra is happy he isnt involved in #ubuntu-devel atm ... phew ...
<ogra> RichEd, i think we can close then ... i cant give much more info without the meeting with colin now
<ogra> any further business ?
<ogra> going once
<ogra> going twice
<RichEd> BONG
<ogra> adjourned, thanks all :)
<RichEd> thanks all
<ogra> and sorry for being 1h late
 * RichEd falls over
<ogra> wont happen next time
 * ogra joins falling
<RichEd> no problem ... we got some useful community chatting going
<ogra> RichEd, seen barrys mail ? you need to buy even more bandwith
<farmhand01> Hello All
<farmhand01> Is there anyone out there who can help me with a thin client problem?
<Palintheus> you might try #ubuntu , this is a channel for different team meetings
<LaserJock> farmhand01: try #ltsp or #edubuntu if you're using that
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-29
<wolfger> Anybody in here?
<lamont> wolfger: I see 99 of us
<lamont> of course, I think we're all just lurking
<wolfger> I was looking for a meeting, but was notified it's being held in ubuntu-us. Sorry to have bothered the peace :-)
<somerville32> @schedule atlantic
<ubotu> Schedule for Canada/Atlantic: 29 Nov 10:00: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 12:00: Community Council | 01 Dec 07:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 15:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Server Team meeting
 * somerville32 wonders if he can swing the CC
<no0tic> @schedule europe
<no0tic> @schedule europe/rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 29 Nov 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 17:00: Community Council | 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting
<kraut> moin
<coolbhavi> hello
<coolbhavi> is popey sir there?
<coolbhavi>  is popey sir there?
<popey> yes
<RainCT> hi
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting
<pitti> hi
<kwwii> hi pitti
 * mvo waves
 * ccm waves but only reads until the next meeting :)
<Keybuk> Riddell: here?
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<Riddell> yo
 * Keybuk wonders whether Ted is up yet
<MacSlow> hi Riddell
<Keybuk> let's get going anyway
<Keybuk> I've been collecting agenda items at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting
<Keybuk> (and this also links to the previous meeting minutes now)
<Keybuk> so previous meeting actions
<Keybuk> kwwii: is the art-team spec ready for review?
<kwwii> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> kwwii: could you mark it as Review in LP?
<MacSlow> desktopEffects I'll have finished by tomorrow, face-browser is done and the other two are also done by the weekend
<kwwii> Keybuk: will do
<MacSlow> hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi MacSlow
<Keybuk> ok, so the following actions get carried over
<Keybuk> ACTION: kwwii to complete hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme after decision at London presentation
<Keybuk> ACTION: MacSlow to complete drafting of hardy-desktop-effects and other assigned specs
<Keybuk> ok, so spec progress
<Keybuk> not expecting anything significant at this point, but if you have any interesting highlights, please shout out when your name is called ;)
<Keybuk> Riddell: ?
<Riddell> KDE 4 packages are all done for this round
<Keybuk> cool, so updated beta for alpha 1?
<Riddell> release candiate infact
<Keybuk> which RC?
<Riddell> KDE 4 rc 1
<Keybuk> good work!
<Riddell> although KDE 4 will probably be delayed until early january
<Keybuk> oh, why the hold up?
<Riddell> lots of bits are broken
<Riddell> people were complining you can't change the desktop background, that seems to be a favourite feature
<Riddell> I also packaged trolltech's webkitkde for konqueror, still very experimental but promising
<Keybuk> oh, the confusement
<Keybuk> so webkit started as khtml, used by konq, and now knoq uses webkit? :)
<Riddell> that's the circle of life
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> ok, thanks
<Keybuk> kwwii: your specs are largely blocking on the london meeting next week, but any interesting developments?
<Riddell> (New queue processing on webkitkde appreciated archive admins)
<pitti> noted ^
<kwwii> nothing amazing, I have just about every idea under the sun in the presentation, we'll see what comes of that
<Keybuk> :-)  If you want to send me another draft, please feel free
<kwwii> one thing with the art team that we are blocked on is getting out the new art.ubuntu.com site
<Keybuk> who is that blocking on?
<kwwii> Keybuk: I'll send you something in a few hours
<kwwii> it is waiting for some code review
<Keybuk> LP?  IS?  newz2000?
<kwwii> yeah, newz2000 got the new stuff running but he told me it is waiting for review
<kwwii> I am guessing it is some lp functionality which was missing before
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> do you need any pressure from me to help that through?  do you have bug#s or anything?
<kwwii> at this point we have only been waiting for a couple of weeks, if it gets to be a month and nothing happens I'll move the pressure up a notch
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> please do let me know
<kwwii> will do
<Keybuk> pitti: any interesting developments/progress to report this early?
<pitti> nothing beyond my weekly report
<pitti> I was mainly hacking on r-m and doing archive/release stuff
<pitti> but there's nothing shiny about the new r-m yet
<pitti> (and dapper.2, but nothing for this meeting)
<MacSlow> pitti, hey... we can do widget-reflections now ;)
<Keybuk> *nods*  I have added the discussion about weekly reports to the team leads meeting later today; my preference is just to include all of yours in our own team meeting report
<tedg> Keybuk: versus what?
<Keybuk> versus a single one for the entire distro team, for example
<tedg> Ah okay.
<Keybuk> (which was the original plan which has never happened :p)
<Keybuk> mvo: anything interesting?
<mvo> compiz: git HEAD packages almost ready for upload, keybinding settings
<mvo>         changed, need to be updated
<mvo> but otherwise its good to go
<Keybuk> is git head based on 0.6 or 0.7?
<mvo> 0.7
<Keybuk> what's the progress like on that?
<mvo> all packages are ready, the complete stack needs to get uploaded
<Keybuk> upstream, I mean
<mvo> not too much new stuff in 0.7 yet, it seems everyone is waiting for the new object system branch to get merged
<seb128> is 0.7 an unstable serie?
<mvo> yes
<seb128> will they get a stable one before hardy?
<seb128> (just curious there)
<mvo> they told us they will branch  a stable in time
<seb128> ok
<mvo> MacSlow: any word from david yet?
<mvo> upgrades are working okish too, dapper->hardy inside kvm with the release-upgrader and backported apt/dpkg works now (server upgrade only)
<MacSlow> mvo, no :/ I'll tell you first once I do get a reply
<mvo> dapper->hardy with ubuntu-desktop is currently runnig on my machine, I got some file overwrite problems and postinst issues, but its not yet finished
<mvo> (thats all)
<Keybuk> ok, thanks
<Keybuk> MacSlow: ?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, you too don't worry :)
<Keybuk> I mean any interesting highlights to report for the past week?
<MacSlow> well the most interesting thing is probably that I got redirected widget-rendering working in gtk+ (with some cairo-magic) http://macslow.thepimp.net/clips/reflected-widgets-1.ogg
<kwwii> boah, killer
<MacSlow> in the works and not done are similar experiments with redirected gtk+-widgets _ontop_ of a OpenG-context
<tedg> MacSlow: That's pretty cool.
<MacSlow> but that will probably still take a day or two more
<Keybuk> very shiny :-)
<Keybuk> tedg: any interesting news to report?  I know you've spent the past week on gnome-screensaver, etc.
<tedg> Nothing interesting.
<tedg> Working on the screensaver blueprint.
<tedg> Do you want to look at removing "boring" screensavers?
<Keybuk> I saw a question about a Debian screensaver?
<ogra> tedg, i guess it would make sense to review our default hacks selection in xscreensaver
<Keybuk> boring ones, those that are impossible to use without configuration, etc.
<ogra> the list we ship is quite old
<Keybuk> (the question of actually getting configuration back is +n material)
<MacSlow> tedg, are the rss-screensavers in main?
<ogra> there are surely new intresting ones
<tedg> Yeah, apparently adding the Debian logo screensaver might offend Debian.  I don't get it, but that was the chat last night.
<ogra> MacSlow, yep
<MacSlow> I like those
<kwwii> it would be better to offer only a few really good ones that including a long list of useless/ugly crap
<kwwii> s/that/than
<ogra> MacSlow, very expensive ressource wise though
<MacSlow> screensavers are something so useless... but so fun thing to hack on
<tedg> Okay, we might need to have a selection for older computers and such.
<ogra> if you take them away expect people to show up at yur door :)
<MacSlow> ogra, hm... joa... kind of battery-burning
 * Keybuk uses "Blank Screen" and the f-spot screensaver, heh
<ogra> users love screensavers ... whyever
<Keybuk> we can always have a -extra ;)
<MacSlow> ogra, funky and shiny screensavers rock on booth-computers at computer-fairs
<ogra> we already have that  :)
<tedg> Should we break the "Ubuntu Screensaver" into it's own package so that it's easier to theme?
<ogra> Keybuk, -extra-extra you mean ;)
<Keybuk> -read-all-about-it
<Keybuk> (or is that rss?)
<Keybuk> tedg: I can't remember what the theme plans are this time?  kwwii would know
<tedg> Also, my other question: does it make sense to have an "Ubuntu your video card sucks" and a "Ubuntu it looks nice"?
<Keybuk> I have no problem with it only working on decent video cards
<Keybuk> ok, thanks
<Keybuk> I didn't receive any additional agenda items this week
<Keybuk> so we do have any other business?
<tedg> Keybuk: Okay.  I think we should keep it simple though -- for things like LTSP.  Not over the top.
<tedg> I wanted to ask about the art-packages, who got stuck with those?  kwwii?
<kwwii> tedg: yeah
<kwwii> apparently so
<ogra> tedg, LTSP wrt screensaver you mean  ?
<MacSlow> tedg, Keybuk: i915 are decent... as long as you're not a hard-core fps-gamer
<tedg> ogra: Yeah.
<kwwii> tedg: I think the screensaver should be in a seperate packge
<ogra> tedg, there is a patch that disables anything but blanking for LTSP clients
<tedg> Keybuk: Okay, I knew I was on the list at some point, I wanted to make sure I didn't miss getting tagged :)
<MacSlow> tedg, Keybuk: unfortunately "decent" is more dependent on driver and exposed GL-features
<ogra> kwwii, the "screensaver" is in 6 separate packages atm, how much fragmentation do you want ?
<MacSlow> tedg, Keybuk: I wonder if it would make sense to write a cairo-only screensaver-module (assuming proper EXA-support)
<tedg> ogra: Good to know, no performance issues on blank :)
<kwwii> ogra: I just want the ubuntu one to be in a package of it's own so that art people can update it without a problem, in addition to allowing other variants to use their logo
<tedg> Yeah, it would be nice of there was a default Ubuntu Studio screensaver that would work there also by default.
<ogra> kwwii, thats the purpose of xscreensaver-data
<ogra> it just needs a cleanup of the list it ships
<ogra> (-data are all non GL screensavers we ship by default ... the GL ones are in xscreensaver-gl)
<tedg> Does data have .desktop files in it?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> it generates them in debian/rules iirc
<kwwii> how easy is it or variants to change the logo and include only their version in their variant atm?
<ogra> they can just add their hack and change the gconf setting
<tedg> ogra: Wow, that's a complex rules file -- I'll take your word on it :)
<ogra> tedg, feel free to pick my brain if you stumble over anything :)
<kwwii> ogra: but that would still install the ubuntu version as well, or?
<Keybuk> ok, sounds like this can be taken offline now :-)
<tedg> kwwii: To replace the Ubuntu one they'd have to spin gnome-screen-saver
<ogra> kwwii, right
<Keybuk> any other any other business?
<ogra> kwwii, but yzu can make the other one default easily
<tedg> Keybuk: nope.
<kwwii> ogra: right, but the inclusion of an extra logo is what I want to avoid, anyway...we can talk about it later
<ogra> kwwii, look at /usr/share/gconf/defaults/10_gnome-screensaver .... if you make a /usr/share/gconf/defaults/20_ubuntustudio-screensaver it will override the settings and you can put "/apps/gnome-screensaver/theme screensavers-ubuntustudio_theme" in it
<ogra> the ubuntu one would still be in the selection indeed
<Keybuk> ok, adjourned
<kwwii> that is what I want to avoid
<kwwii> thanks everyone
<ogra> kwwii, then package it into the artwork packages ;) it doesnt need to be in g-s-s
<mvo> thanks
<kwwii> ogra: right, that was my whole point :p
<pitti> whoops, sorry
<tedg> kwwii: That's an interesting point, it doesn't need to be it's own package -- it could be in the theme packages.
<kwwii> pitti: 15:37 < Keybuk> ok, adjourned
<pitti> kwwii: thanks
<kwwii> tedg: yeah, that was really what I meant when I said "put it in it's own package"
 * ogra misundersood, sorry
<kwwii> when I say "it" I just mean the artwork :p
<ogra> heh
<ogra> yeah, thats trivial, just grab the svg and .desktop file from 01_ubuntu_floaters.patch out of the gnome-screensaver package
<ogra> and put them in the right place
<tedg> Okay, so that sounds good.  We'll put the Ubuntu screensaver in an art package.
<tedg> So that then, art things can be done to it ;)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> and the art team actually gets the bugs about the artwork ;)
 * ogra suggests to put a unlock screen theme in teher as well 
<ogra> *there
<kwwii> oh no, you can keep the bugs :p
<ogra> hehe
<kwwii> ogra: yeah, we wanted to add that for gutsy but it was too late
<ogra> yeah
<no0tic> @schedule europe/rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development 29 Nov 17:00: Community Council | 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting
<ccm> @schedule europe/berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 29 Nov 17:00: Community Council | 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting
<ccm> nice, timezone calc
<Andre_Gondim> @schedule america/brazil
<Andre_Gondim> @schedule america/brazil/east
<AndreNoel> @schedule america/saopaulo
<AndreNoel> @schedule america/sao_paulo
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 29 Nov 14:00: Community Council | 01 Dec 09:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 17:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 18:30: Xubuntu meeting
<Andre_Gondim> thanks :D
<AndreNoel> np
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting
 * Burgundavia yawns
 * coolbhavi waiting
 * ogra pokes a finger in Burgundavias mouth
<RainCT> *me laughs
 * RainCT thinks oops
<dholbach> hello
 * ScottK looks for coffee.
<MikeB-> morning
<atoponce> good morning
<Burgundavia> whose idea was it schedule at 8am my time?
 * somerville32 crawls out of bed.
<dholbach> we have an agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda - let's get started
<RainCT> good afternoon :)
<Hattory> hi all
<Burgundavia> do we have quorum yet?
<dholbach> first up would be Jono, but as he's ill we won't have the "LoCo Council Proposal" discussion today
<Zelut> Burgundavia: its got to be early for somebody!
<dholbach> Burgundavia: it seems it's you, MikeB-, elmo and me today
<Burgundavia> I thought sabdfl could make it
<MikeB-> sabdfl should be coming
<dholbach> I pinged somebody to ping him
<Hobbsee> oh erk, it's a CC meeting already
<dholbach> with four of us, we still can move on now
<Hobbsee> this says i really should be in bed!
<dholbach> first up is the New Jersey Loco Team
<Joe_CoT> Hello!
<dholbach> do we have anybody of the New Jersey team here?
 * Hobbsee would like to register her great objections to Kmos' application for membership, seeing as she's here.
<no0tic> hi
<christinaeater> hello
<totopalma> hi all
<sabdfl> hello all
<Joe_CoT> Some of our members weren't able to make it on such short notice. Others are late rousers :)
<Joe_CoT> hi sabdfl
<luisbg> hello sabdfl
<dholbach> what are the plans for the next time for your team?
<bbartek> hi all
<huats> hi all
<Joe_CoT> next time?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewJerseyTeam/Events doesn't say anything about the future :)
<Joe_CoT> It's on the application. We're planning a Linux LAN Party at my house in December. Looks like it'll be December 22nd
<Joe_CoT> still ironing out a date on that.
<Joe_CoT> That, and we'll have another installfest for Gutsy. We'll probably go back to the Columbus Farmer's market, since the previous event there was a success.
<dholbach> nice
<dholbach> how many people are on the team and help out regularly? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewJerseyTeam/Team lists 4 members?
 * jedijf does
 * christinaeater helps out too
<Joe_CoT> and Trenton Computer Festival is in April. Dave (he couldn't make it) is organizing talks to TCF. We'll have another big table there
<Joe_CoT> Bryan, Dave, Christina, Me, Jim. One of our members, Chris, is away in California for an extended period.
<jedijf> it seems like 5 regulars and then 2 to 3 floaters per event
<Joe_CoT> Besides that, we have a lot of support from the Cherry Hill Linux User Group, the Rutgers SLUG, and the Princeton LUG
<Joe_CoT> And a few newer members who I won't meeting until the LAN Party :)
<dholbach> how many people attend your IRC meetings?
<jedijf> and we seem to have drawn some younger members that have transportation issues at the moment
<dholbach> what do you use those IRC meetings for?
<Joe_CoT> Honestly, the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewJerseyTeam/Team wasn't one I created, or aware of, so I haven't kept it up to date :)
<dholbach> it's linked from the menu bar :)
<Joe_CoT> dholbach, between 4 and 8 usually. Usually to come up with new ideas for events, or to prepare for an upcoming event. I try to have a meeting the week before
<atoponce> there are about 70 members or the launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-us-nj/+members
<atoponce> s/or/on/
 * Joe_CoT will remove or update it later.
<Joe_CoT> One of the auxiliary members recently made some changes while i wasn't lookin
<sabdfl> looks good to me
 * jedijf exhales
<sabdfl> ;-)
<dholbach> for how long does your team exist?
<Joe_CoT> *thinks* I picked it up from OgMaciel sometime in November 2006. I started giving talks at Local LUGS after that, and our first event was TCF last April
<dholbach> elmo, MikeB-, Burgundavia: are you having any questions?
<OgMaciel> :)
<Burgundavia> nope +1 from me
<MikeB-> nope, +1 from me. I would update the wiki though:)
<coolbhavi> err sorry to interrupt... am I late?
 * coolbhavi wondering
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> +1 from me too, and MikeB++ - that's really important
<dholbach> sabdfl: I guess your "looks good to me" means "+1"? :)
<sabdfl> indeed
<sabdfl> any further questions?
<sabdfl> ok, then well done NJ and welcome aboard!
<MikeB-> none here congrats
<christinaeater> yay!
<atoponce> Joe_CoT: congrats to the NJ team!
<jedijf> thank you :D
<dholbach> it seems we have an approved New Jersey Loco Team - congratulations :)
<Palintheus> \o/ \o/ Congrats NJ!!!!
<lamalex_2> yay congrats!
<greg-g> congrats NJ
 * jedijf cheers
<Joe_CoT> Thanks guys! :D
<ccm> congrat, Joe_CoT
<somerville32> :)
<no0tic> congrats!
<dholbach> Next up is the Georgia team! Who represents Georgia here? :)
<JonReagan> Hello everyone! I'm Jon Reagan, Council member for the Georgia LoCo Team
<JonReagan> I might be the only one here... one of our guys is on vacation, and the others are busy at work (not quite lunch yet!)
<dholbach> you mention sub teams on your page - how are they coming along?
<JonReagan> very good!  we have a support team, marketing team, new user team...
<JonReagan> they each consist of one person, and each are doing great things
<sabdfl> you have, in fact, the *seeds* of three teams there ;-)
<sabdfl> but it sounds great
<JonReagan> they are seeds indeed... :)
<sabdfl> i see your mailing list is relatively busy
<dholbach> the forums and mailing lists look quite busy too
<dholbach> hehe
<MikeB-> Jon, I lived in Georgia about 5 years ago, so I'm familiar with the linux scene their
<JonReagan> nice!
<sabdfl> seems like your event schedule has been pretty busy
<dholbach> which cities are you most busy in?
<MikeB-> where do you have your meetings, and do you work with ALE and CHUGALUG (my old LUG) closely
<JonReagan> mainly atlanta
<JonReagan> we have been working with ALE for the InstallFest (and future Installfests as well)
<MikeB-> any presence in Athens
<JonReagan> We do have several members who are in athens
<JonReagan> they work with FreeIT Athens
<sabdfl> this looks well organised to me
<sabdfl> +1
<dholbach> to me too: +1
<MikeB-> +1 from me
<dholbach> Burgundavia, elmo?
<elmo> +1
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<dholbach> nice work Georgia! congrats!
<sabdfl> ok, welcome aboard!
<atoponce> JonReagan: congrats on GA!
<JonReagan> Thank you so much!
<greg-g> well done GA
<dholbach> next up is New Mexico! :)
<somerville32> :)
<AlexDeGruven> Good job, GA, congrats
<sabdfl> alrighty
<Palintheus> \o/ \o/ Congrats GA!!!!
<sabdfl> NM!
<dthomasdigital> Hello From New Mexico
<dholbach> hey tritium :)
<no0tic> cheers!
<sabdfl> i like the look of the two fools ;-)
<MikeB-> congrats Georgia, Go Dawgs!!! :)
<dholbach> holy cow... this page looks good, lots of action on the mailing list
<dthomasdigital> I can't wait to have some shepherds pie.
<sabdfl> looks good from me - any comments from the team?
<sabdfl> when is the next quarterly install fest?
<dthomasdigital> We will actually have a meeting tonight to get a solid date, I'm hoping for mid January.
<dholbach> I'm pretty happy with what I've seen: +1
<sabdfl> +1 from me too
<MikeB-> +1 here, great work
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<dholbach> elmo?
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> congratulations New Mexico!
<atoponce> dthomasdigital, boredandblogging: congrats on GA approval!
<dthomasdigital> fantastic!!!
<greg-g> go GA
<dholbach> :-)
<atoponce> er, NM i meant! :)
 * Zelut throws in the obligatory "w00t"
 * atoponce is not awake quite yet
<dthomasdigital> Happy folks in NM
<MikeB-> congrats NM
 * greg-g oh yeah, NM... ;)
<dholbach> Next up is the Danish Loco team - who's here from Denmark?
 * Hobbsee will pretend to speak danish, if required
<ScottK> soren is from Denmark.
<dholbach> ok... let's move on to the folks of the Michigan team then and get back to Denmark later
<dholbach> Who's here from the Michigan team?
<greg-g> Hello, I'm Greg Grossmeier, Team Lead/Contact for the Michigan LoCo Team (where it is a pleasent -1*C today).  We also have a few team members here watching today.
 * AlexDeGruven raises his hand
 * rick_h_ looks from the shadows
<jcastro> \o/
 * atoponce cheers on greg-g and MI
 * tjagoda raised hand
<elmo> [it'd be wrong to +1 the michigan team on the basis of the RHCP song, right?]
<rick_h_> elmo: never wrong to +1 MI
<greg-g> :)
<Burgundavia> as wrong as it would be to -1 them on the basis of jorge living in the state ;)
<sabdfl> interesting - seems quite a few folks came to the last irc meeting
<PriceChild> !away > dendro-away (see the pm from ubotu)
<sabdfl> is chris dibona based in michigan?
<rick_h_> no, he's in CA
<greg-g> sabdfl: no.. ...
<rick_h_> he came and saw us with Mako a bit ago though
<greg-g> see rick_h's answer :)
<sabdfl> good of him to show up then :-)
<sabdfl> how many folks are regulars at your meetings?
<greg-g> anywhere from 2 of us (bad busy days) to 10ish
<dholbach> I'm particularly happy to see PackagingJams happening in Michigan - that's awesome: how many people of you are considering becoming MOTUs? what do you think?
<rick_h_> usually physical meetings are much larger than irc meetings somehow
<greg-g> yeah, we haven't found a great time for everyone to make IRC meetings yet
<MikeB-> greg-g: where in the state are you based
<rick_h_> dholbach: right now there's maybe 2-4 of us. We're hoping to repeat the packaging jam in Jan and increase that
<sabdfl> ok, looks fine to me, +1
<greg-g> I am in Ann Arbor, South East side.. where most people are
<dholbach> rick_h_: that's great, I'm really happy to see that happening
<greg-g> dholbach: and some people are just interested for other reasons than being MOTUs
<dholbach> apart from that the Loco seems to be really really organised, I'm happy to give +1
<elmo> +1
<Burgundavia> a stunning amount of work, +1 from me
<MikeB-> +1 here
<dholbach> greg-g, rick_h_: let's chat about that again, once I've got the packaging guide under control :)
<rick_h_> greg-g: runs a tight ship
<greg-g> dholbach: most definitely
<dholbach> congratulations Michigan!
<atoponce> greg-g: congrats on MI approval!!
<greg-g> I try :)
 * dholbach hugs greg-g and rick_h_
<greg-g> thanks!
<jcastro> woo michigan!
<Palintheus> \o/ \o/ Congrats MI!!!!
 * tjagoda celebrates
<atoponce> w00t!! 4 US Teams approved!!!
<homanj> greg-g: congrats
<greg-g> US Teams rock!
<greg-g> thanks all
<dholbach> Do we have deadwill, William Lima here?
<Hobbsee> \o/ deadwill!
<dholbach> doesn't seem to be on freenode
<dholbach> demrit? paulliu?
<dholbach> Forlong?
<ScottK> dholbach: IIRC deadwill is no longer involved in the project.  I'd suggest removing him.
<dholbach> andrea-bs! Hello Andrea :)
<andrea-bs> hi dholbach
<andrea-bs> can I paste?
<dholbach> ScottK: thanks - I'll write him an email
 * mvo fanboys forlong
<dholbach> andrea-bs: sure :)
<andrea-bs> I'm a developer, I use Python as main programming language, but I know also
<andrea-bs> C/C++ and ASM (AT&T syntax). Sometimes, I build some deb packages to test the
<andrea-bs> Launchpad PPA. I use Launchpad to:
<andrea-bs>  * triage bugs with the Ubuntu BugControl Team
<andrea-bs>  * offer support in the Ubuntu Support Team
<andrea-bs>  * make translations
<andrea-bs>  * register blueprints (sometimes)
<andrea-bs> My plans for the future: become MOTU and CoreDev and improve my current
<andrea-bs> activities.
<andrea-bs> https://edge.launchpad.net/~andrea-bs/
<sabdfl> andrea-bs: what's you LP URL?
<sabdfl> ah, thanks :-_)
<andrea-bs> ;)
<sabdfl> what do you think of PPAs? how would you improve the service?
<dholbach> andrea-bs: what kind of packages are you most interested in? how was your MOTU experience up until now?
 * soren notes that Gnomonic (the Danish LoCo team guy) just stepped in
<andrea-bs> sabdfl, first of all, I'm waiting for the function to delete packages
 * Gnomonic is sorry to be late
<dholbach> Gnomonic: we'll get back to the danish loco in a bit
<andrea-bs> second: I've tried to build a package in dapper that uses pycentral
<bluekuja> hi everyone, dholbach, sabdfl :)
<andrea-bs> i can built it because it's not on the default repos of dapper
<andrea-bs> so a function to use self-built packages as build dependencies should be fine
<dholbach> I think PPAs can build-depends on PPA packages.
<dholbach> what team do you feel have you been most involved with up until now?
<andrea-bs> dholbach, python packages and i don't have a great experience of motu yet :(
<andrea-bs> the support team and bugcontrol
<no0tic> hi LjL-Mobile :)
<dholbach> andrea-bs: don't lose faith yet, there's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted and a MOTU Q&A session at 13:00 UTC tomorrow :-)
<LjL-Mobile> Hello there
<andrea-bs> dholbach, thanks :)
<sabdfl> ok, +1 for andreas-bs from me
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<MikeB-> +1
<Burgundavia> +1 from me, nice work all around
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> congratulations Andrea
<andrea-bs> thanks all!
<somerville32> woot! :)
<dholbach> let's pedal back to the Danish team, I believe Gnomonic is standing by now
<Gnomonic> Yup
<Gnomonic> So, what is the procedure?
<no0tic> complimenti andrea-bs
<Hattory> andrea-bs, good job!!!
<andrea-bs> grazie no0tic
<andrea-bs> hey Hattory, thanks!
<dholbach> Gnomonic: we're just reviewing your application and web pages and will then probably ask a few questions about your Loco team
<totopalma> andrea-bs, congratulations :)
<dholbach> 8791 indlÃ¦g on the forum, not bad :)
<dholbach> Gnomonic: when you say 15-20 people in the meetings - are those IRC meetings or real life meetings somewhere in denmark?
<sabdfl> is there a mailing list URL?
<sabdfl> for the Danish team?
<Gnomonic> dholbach: IRC-meetings.
<dholbach> sabdfl: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-dk
<Gnomonic> sabdfl: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-dk
<Gnomonic> dholbach: thanks
<Gnomonic> dholbach: Denmark IS a small country, but there are still some km's from one end to the other :-)
<dholbach> is most of the action happening in Copenhagen? what are most of the danish members interested in?
<sabdfl> is ther e aschedule of regular meetings?
<soren> We meet the first Sunday of each month.
<dholbach> there seem to be motnthly IRC meetings: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanishTeam/M%c3%b8der
<Gnomonic> dholbach: There seems to be an equal weighting between advocacy and localisation. And then just some 'being close to the magic that is Ubuntu' :-)
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<dholbach> +1 from me too - good work Denmark :)
<MikeB-> +1
<elmo> +1
<illovae> hello :)
<soren> \o/
<dholbach> congratulations :)
<dholbach> domibel, RicardoPerez seem not to be around, coolbhavi?
 * soren high fives Gnomonic and shiyee
<coolbhavi> yup
<Gnomonic> Woohoo!
 * Gnomonic high fives right back at soren
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> fire away coolbhavi
<coolbhavi> I am Bhavani Shankar 20 yrs old.. please bear with my slow typing.. I have to type in a single hand
<coolbhavi> Please I am a cerebral palsy disabled guy upto 75%
<sabdfl> you manage to get to quite a lot of ideas and areas of work!
<coolbhavi> sabdfl sorry it was a clear case of email spoofing
<sabdfl> what areas would you say you contribute the most to ubuntu in?
<coolbhavi> Answer tracker actively and Ubuntu Media center
<dholbach> what's the state of Ubuntu Media center right now?
<coolbhavi> software is up in 7.10 repos
<musashi1> I came to cheer for Bhavi. I see him put in a lot of effort on the answer tracker. My full comment is on his wiki page.
<coolbhavi> remote control applet is done
<somerville32> Snazzy wiki page too :]
<coolbhavi> rest all is still in the spec stage
<jsgotangco> hi sorry i just checked in (there was an attempted coup in our country earlier)
<penguim> hi all
<penguim> Andre_Gondim, good luck man
<coolbhavi> aramud is down with illness and is busy with NUT tools he is maintaining
<Andre_Gondim> penguim thanks :D
<dholbach> coolbhavi: its great you want to get involved with the accessibility team, you should get in touch with Luke Yelavich (TheMuso) if you haven't done so already
<coolbhavi> meanwhile i have started an idea of iptablesfe
<coolbhavi> yes
<coolbhavi> Couple of days back I registered it on google soc
<dholbach> I'm pretty happy with your wiki page, especially all the good you have done in the answers tracker, +1 from me
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<coolbhavi> its about developing a Front end for iptables using pygtk module similar to nmapfe
<Burgundavia> and due to school, I need to run
<somerville32> coolbhavi, is ubuntugames still active?
<coolbhavi> thanks..
<dholbach> sabdfl, elmo, MikeB-?
<coolbhavi> Dont know I am mainly concentrating on UMC and the answer tracker
<sabdfl> +1
<elmo> +1
<MikeB-> +1
<jsgotangco> +1
<dholbach> congratulations coolbhavi - keep up the good work!
<somerville32> :]
<coolbhavi> thank you all..
<musashi1> congrats coolbhavi, keep up the good work
<dholbach> next up is ccm
<ccm> here
<coolbhavi> another thing
<ccm> I' am a linux consultant and focus, besides involving in bug squatting (with a break due to my diploma thesis), in organising Berlin based loco activities and marketing events.
<ccm> Right now my main Ubuntu task is to support "Berliner Fenster" - a Berlin Underground television advertisement company - to bring a long term story about Ubuntu reaching millions of passengers...
<ccm> ... as well as bringing up a smooth colaboration of Berlin group with the official German LoCo team.
<ccm> In the beginning of the next year there will be an Ubuntu network gaming event and of course a Hardy release party.
<coolbhavi> I will take this issue up in the locoteams..:)
<coolbhavi> Thanks all once again....
 * coolbhavi overjoyed
<dholbach> coolbhavi: have a great day :)
<sabdfl> ccm: very nice wiki page
<ccm> sabdfl: thanks
<coolbhavi> thanks its midnight now......
<ccm> sabdfl: based on copy and paste, i admit
<ccm> :)
<ccm> sabdfl: i mean the design not the content
<ccm> :)
<dholbach> I'm in full support for ccm, since I reached out to other Berlinian Ubunteros he's done a lot of good work in organising the team
<coolbhavi> thanks musashi1 and sabdfl
<sabdfl> is berlin very active?
<ccm> of course it is :)
<dholbach> how many people were at the last release party?
<ccm> dholbach: 80 to 100
<jsgotangco> wow
<sabdfl> where would you say you make the biggest contribution to ubuntu?
<sabdfl> is the media agency the company where you work?
<ccm> sabdfl: involving in berlin, making marketing contacts here
 * coolbhavi waving and sleepy......Bye!!!!!!!
<dholbach> the party has grown a bit since the 40 people at the release party at my place :-)
<ccm> sabdfl: no
<ccm> as i am not a programmer but a linux guy i bring in my tech stuff in bug squatting
<dholbach> "Berliner Fenster" was Ubuntu friendly before, after the last release they sent an Ubuntu ad on their own accord
<dholbach> but from what I've heard this story about Ubuntu is going to be bigger than that
<ccm> dholbach: yes, they want to change their it infrastructure and bring a long term story about it
<ccm> dholbach: they requested input from our team
<ccm> dholbach: i met them just last friday at their office
<dholbach> yeah, I read the thread on the mailing list but didn't have the chance to reply yet
<sabdfl> +1 from meok, +1 from me
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<dholbach> elmo, jsgotangco, MikeB-?
<jsgotangco> +1 very nice contribs
<MikeB-> +1
<elmo> +1
 * ccm smiles
<dholbach> congratulations ccm - see you soon again :)
<dholbach> it seems kmos is not around, jdstrand is popping in and out of the channel, let's move on to MenZa
<ccm> thank you, guys, that made my day
<Hattory> ccm, congrats!!
 * dholbach high-fives ccm
<ninin> ccm: Juhu - congrats!
<huats> ccm congrats
<ccm> :)
<no0tic> ccm, congrats :)
 * ccm thanks around
<ninin> ccm: Keep up the great work ;-)
<dholbach> MenZa - are you around?
<bullgard4> ccm: *thumb up*
<MenZa> Yep, dholbach :)
<dholbach> great, your stage
<MenZa> Ah, cheers dholbach - first, apologies for being a bit late; I'd missed the date of the meeting. Second, let me attempt to introduce myself. My name is Lasse, I'm a member of the Danish Ubuntu (now official LoCo team, whoo), and I've been using Ubuntu for a couple of years now
<MenZa> I've done a bit of wikipage-writing and stuff, helped at the Danish Ubuntu release party for Gutsy a while back, and a few others, including marketing, where I've helped jenda with the initial stickers he's had great success with
<sabdfl> anyone care to cheer for MenZa?
<Spec> I cheer MenZa!
<MenZa> I think Spec might :)
<MenZa> I had a bunch of references lined up, but alas, I missed the date of the meeting, so I'm not sure who's around anymore
 * Gnomonic cheers at MenZa
<dholbach> Gnomonic, Spec: what have you been working on together with MenZa?
<MenZa> I'm currently spending most of my Ubuntu-time with Gnomonic, among others, working on building up the Danish LoCo team
<somerville32> I've seen him chumming around with the Marketing team :)
<Spec> I have not worked directly with MenZa on any project, but I've seen him support users.
<Gnomonic> dholbach: We have mainly been organizing in general and especially the release party
<sabdfl> MenZa: where would you say you are making your strongest contribution to ubuntu?
<somerville32> If I recall, he helped me do some heavy lifting a few times when I was still involved with the UWN and we were doing the comprehensive upload summaries.
<MenZa> Currently? Helping out on ubuntuforums.org and #ubuntu - I poke around on a bunch of mailing lists and comment on ideas and such as well; but I'd have to say my heart lies with ubuntu-dk, attempting to build that up.
<hugolp> hi
<dholbach> I have to step out for a bit - brb
<MenZa> My greatest, uh, 'visual success', for a lack of a better term, would probably be on the marketing side, though, helping out jenda.
<jsgotangco> i have to step out too, its almost 2am on my side, ill catch up early next meeting
<jsgotangco> sorry for the short  stay
<sabdfl> MenZa:  i think you need to document more actual contribution
<sabdfl> it looks like you are doing good stuff, it's just not enough to get +1 from me yet
<sabdfl> or, it's not documented :-)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting
<sabdfl> i can only judge from what i read and what others say
<MenZa> Ah, a topyli
<MenZa> Yes; my major issue is with the references right now, as I see it
<MenZa> I had quite a current members lined up to support that, but I see how it's a tad weak without them here.
<somerville32> MenZa, I've seen you do some good work and hopefully I see you back here again with a more padded wiki page :)
<dholbach> back again
<MenZa> right
<dholbach> sorry MenZa, I hope you're not disappointed at the prospect of joining us for another CC meeting soon again :)
<MenZa> Not at all :)
<dholbach> ok great :)
<no0tic> hi, MefistoRQ :)
<MenZa> I just need to find a way to get the date a bit in advance. Cheers for considering me :)
<sabdfl> RainCT: you#re u[
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> you're up
<dholbach> rock on MenZa
<RainCT> Hey, I'm Siegfried Gevatter (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RainCT,  https://launchpad.net/~rainct), a 16 years old from Catalonia (I lived 9 years in Germany, though).
<RainCT> I started actively using Ubuntu by the time Dapper was about to be released. In December 2006 I joined the Catalan mailing list, and I've been an active member of the LoCo Team since then. I started getting involved with packaging and a bit bug triaging some months ago ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RainCT/Contributions), and I maintain some packages in Debian. Some weeks before Gutsy was released I also started contributing to the Catalan Ubuntu Tr
<dholbach> RainCT: the text was cut off at "contributing to the Catalan Ubuntu T"
<RainCT> oops.   to the Catalan Ubuntu Translators team (I haven't done much there yet, but I did many translations in direct contact with upstream before;  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RainCT/Translations).
<norsetto> go RainCT go!
<ScottK> I'd like to speak in favor of RainCT.  He's done a lot of good MOTU related work and is very mature for his age.  I had no idea he was so young.  Definite +1 from my MOTU perspective.
<RainCT> :D
<dholbach> I'm familiar with the work that RainCT did in the MOTU team and I'm very happy with what I've seen there
<RainCT> thanks norsetto, ScottK, dholbach :)
<sabdfl> +1 from me, excellent wiki, testimonials, and clear evidence of contribution
<alex_muntada> I'm with ScottK and want to speak in favor of RainCT too... he's a pillar of the Catalan LoCoTeam
<jpatrick> I can also support him from the MOTU side +1
<sabdfl> RainCT: are you using PPAs?
<profoX`> RainCT: remarkable that you use Qt for development as a GNOME user :) never met anyone like that before..
<dholbach> rock and roll RainCT, +1 from me :)
<dholbach> sabdfl: looks like it: https://launchpad.net/~rainct/+packages :)
<dholbach> elmo, MikeB-?
<RainCT> sabdfl: I tried it :). Like the other one you asked before, I think that a option to delete packages is missing
<MikeB-> +1 from me
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> congratulations RainCT :)
<no0tic> congrats RainCT
 * somerville32 cheers.
<RainCT> profoX`: heh well, it's better documented. I'm starting to look into Gtk+ now, though
<arualavi> congarts RainCT
<huats> RainCT: congrats
<Hattory> RainCT, good job!!!
<alex_muntada> congrats RainCT!!!
<dholbach> next up is jdstrand, who we skipped before - he's back :)
<arualavi> *congrats oops
<RainCT> Thanks! :D
<jpatrick> congrats RainCT!
<jdstrand> hi!
<nxvl_work> RainCT: congrats!
 * keescook is a big fan of jdstrand and his work.  :)
<dholbach> jdstrand: mind introducing yourself?
<dholbach> keescook: I thought so ;-)
<profoX`> RainCT: I have experience with both, and I must agree that it's better documented :) they are both very good though.. in their own ways (I'm a KDE/Qt contributor myself, but in the past I've done some Gtk+ development in GNOME)
<jdstrand> I am Jamie Strandboge and an Ubuntu Secuirity Engineer.  I was hired back in September, and have already done quite a few security updates
<jdstrand> You can see some of my background on my wiki page:
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamieStrandboge
<ogra> jdstrand, is also a guitar hero :)
<jdstrand> I work with keescook and am a part of the Ubuntu Server team
<jdstrand> ogra: ah shucks...
<ogra> :)
<jdstrand> I have been playing guitar for 22 years, yes
<sabdfl> +1 from me, jdstrand.... rocks ;-)
<_MMA_> \m/
<dholbach> +1 from me too :))
<dholbach> _MMA_: haha :)
<elmo> +1
 * ogra cheers for jdstrand and swings the pompoms
 * somerville32 cheers.
<dholbach> MikeB-?
<MikeB-> +1
<dholbach> congratulations jdstrand
<MikeB-> sorry phone
<jdstrand> woohoo!
<keescook> \o/
<ogra> congrats !!!
<dholbach> ROCK ON!
<jdstrand> thanks everyone!
<ogra> literally :)
<dholbach> next up is juliux? (review)
 * jdstrand feels quite affirmed now
<jdstrand> :)
<dholbach> he's not around, but I'll drop him an email and ask what he wanted in the CC meeting
<dholbach> no0tic: are you there?
<no0tic> hi everybody
<no0tic> I'm going to introduce myself
<no0tic> Hi, my name is Gabriele,
<no0tic> I obtained a degree in General Physics in Pisa on July 2007
<no0tic> I'm an ubuntero and member of the Italian LoCoTeam
<no0tic> My main occupation in the Ubuntu Community is giving support on the #ubuntu-it IRC channel (since 2005)
<no0tic> I joined that channel first when I installed Warty and I've almost always been there since then
<no0tic> I have become an operator on #ubuntu-it on late 2006 (if I remember correctly)
<no0tic> In these days we are defining the new structure of #ubuntu-it-* channels and their administration and two other ops and I are leading this process
<no0tic> I also try to help filing bugs on launchpad too when I spot any
<no0tic> The italian review "Dietro le quinte", inspired from BehindUbuntu, asked me for an interview that will be ready in few days...
<no0tic> ...(http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/DietroLe5/GabrielePostorino)
<no0tic> I would like to contribute to translations in the near future, probably focusing on FCM
<sabdfl> IRC is your area of most contribution?
<dholbach> what's FCM?
<no0tic> yes, indeed
<no0tic> dholbach, Full Circle Magazine
<sabdfl> how much time would you say you spend on Ubuntu IRC channels?
<LjL-Mobile> no0tic is certainly a driving member of the Italian IRC support and operators team, and as we exchanged opinions and operating modes, I have found that, together with his other operators, he's helped "revamp" the #ubuntu-it guidelines
<Hattory> Gabriele is doing an amazing work in the channels of support IRC. He's waiting to join in the "Full Circle Translators Team" and "Ubuntu Italian Translators Team" and I think he'll do a great job here too..... is a very active person.... GOOD JOB GABRIELE!!!!
<no0tic> sabdfl, from 4 to 16 h a day
<totopalma>  I would like to support Gabriele as well, he's doing a great work for the italian community, for the channels of support IRC and wiki. Nice work, Gabriele! :)
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me, and thanks!
<twilight> no0tic plays a very important role in the Italian IRC channels, spending a lot of time supporting users. He has played an important role in the recent IRC team's reorganization (in fact he's one of it's administrators and operators ;) ), too. Definitely great work for our community :)
<dholbach> wow... +1 from me too no0tic - great work
<no0tic> thanks :)
<dholbach> elmo, MikeB-?
<LjL-Mobile> a work which I found most well done, and which gave us #ubuntu operators some interesting food for thought as well
<MikeB-> +1
 * nealmcb missed jdstrand's quick road to glory - congrats!  well deserved :-)
<jdstrand> thanks nealmcb
<jdstrand> :)
<dholbach> elmo?
<MikeB-> +1
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> congrats no0tic
<Hattory> no0tic, ohhhh yessss!!! you rock :D
<sabdfl> okdokey
<sabdfl> who's next?
<no0tic> thanks everybody :)
<totopalma> no0tic, great
<MefistoRQ> no0tic: :)
<dholbach> StevenHarperUK and quadrispro seem not to be around
<totopalma> :)
<dholbach> abogani: are you there?
<abogani> _MMA_, luisbg, joejaxx: rock'n'roll!
<Andre_Gondim> may I?
<LjL-Mobile> congratulations no0tic
<no0tic> thanks LjL-Mobile
<abogani> I'm here!
<luisbg> abogani, I'm here
<profoX`> Andre_Gondim: wait your turn for a little while longer ;)
<Andre_Gondim> ok
<dholbach> Andre_Gondim: we're going through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda top to bottom
<jussi01>  I would like to put a good word in For Alessio (abogiani). In my opinion he has been a vital part of the Ubuntu Studio team, working with the RT kernel and fully deserves membership.
<dholbach> BenC, _MMA_: you're here to cheer for abogani?
<BenC> dholbach: yes
<_MMA_> I was waiting for his intro. :)
 * luisbg is waiting too
<abogani> Sorry for poor english. It isn't my native tongue and now i'm very excited also. :-)
<abogani> My name is Alessio Igor Bogani. I am 30 year old Linux enthusiast from Prato, Tuscany, Italy. I have been advocating Ubuntu since the day I started using it in late 2004. Before that time I was a Debian user. I am a member of the Ubuntu Kernel team and founder and team leader for the Ubuntu Realtime Team. My Ubuntu pages are https://launchpad.net/~abogani and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani.
<_MMA_> As the lead on Ubuntu Studio I have to give a big +1 to Alessio from the entire team. His creation/maintenance of the -RT kernel is a key component for us. Our users have greatly appreciated it. He has also worked hard to integrate himself into the kernel team. (BenC could also chime in on this)
<profoX`> while I don't know abogani personally, I want to put in a good word for him too.. he seems a very active contributor in a lot of areas.. i'm a bit surprised he has done this much in just a half year?
<sabdfl> abogani: do you know anything about carrier-grade linux? i see you are in the CG-Ubuntu team :-)
<luisbg> I must advocate for abogani too, his work in the Real Time kernel has made it what it is right now. This kernel is key for Ubuntu Studio, but also used by some part of the rest of the community.
<BenC> I've worked with abogani a lot concerning the -rt (realtime) kernel flavour. He's been generally responsive to suggestions, and requests. He's dealt with the kernel team in a professional manner through out gutsy. The ubuntu-studio folks owe him a great deal.
<abogani> sabdfl: a little! :-)
<sabdfl> is it still an active upstream idea, or is it just a bureaucratic situation?
<abogani> sabdfl: at the moment the second one. :-(
<sabdfl> pity
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me based on strong contributions over six months
<dholbach> +1 for abogani from me
<MikeB-> +1 from me, great work
<_MMA_> ;)
<abogani> Thanks! :-)
<luisbg> my congrats abogani :)
<dholbach> elmo?
<ccm> grats, abogani :)
<huats> congrats abogani
<elmo> +1
<Kmos> hi
<jussi01> congratulations abogani!!
<abogani> Thanks to all!
<dholbach> congrats abogani
<BenC> abogani: congrats
<penguim> abogani, congrats
<Kmos> I don't know if have passed my time, but I just know about the meeting right know from somerville32
<sabdfl> Matthew Craig around?
<somerville32> sabdfl, kmos missed his spot earlier.
<desertc> I am here!
<sabdfl> ok, go ahead Kmos
<Kmos> sabdfl: i don't have prepared nothing, if you can give me some minutes.. but maybe I don't need a lot of introduction
<sabdfl> LP url?
<sabdfl> wiki page?
<Kmos> 2 secs
<Kmos> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcoRodrigues
<dholbach> there were some problems with Kmos and the MOTU team some weeks ago, I'd prefer if we talked this through with the MOTU Council before
<sabdfl> let's jump to juliank
<sabdfl> and come to Kmos next, when he's prepared
<sabdfl> juliank: are you ready?
<juliank> sabdfl: Of course.
<glatzor> sabdfl: dholbach: sorry for interrupting I am here as a fan boy of julianK. I have to leave for work, so I cannot wait any longer. but it would be great to bind julian to the ubuntu project. I worked with him on gnome-app-install.
<juliank> Hi, I am Julian Andres Klode, 17 years old, from Germany [near Kassel, Hesse], with a GPG key signed by a Debian Developer.
<juliank> I develop software (dir2ogg,ndisgtk) [in Launchpad], maintain packages in Debian and Ubuntu, test Launchpad betas, and I am in the [early] process of becoming a Debian Developer.
<juliank> I apply for membership because I want to become a MOTU, in order to merge my packages [and other packages] when needed, to sponsor uploads for others and to improve the quality of packages [if I find some] and to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu (I am part of the Utnubu team).
<juliank> Maybe, I will also start to make some german translations.
<juliank> My main activity is reading, answering bug reports and backmerging to Debian at the moment, the number of uploads is very low.
<juliank> I currently merged 2 of my packages myself, the others were merged by someone else [aufs,sexy-python] or are not suitable for Ubuntu.
<juliank> I work together with mvo and glatzor on gnome-app-install (mainly on the debian side, where I maintain it).
<juliank> I also work with mvo on getting command-not-found into Debian (sync'able) <http://alioth.debian.org/projects/cnf>.
<juliank> I am also working on dir2ogg, which I develop, which has been uploaded for me by mr_pouit.
<juliank> More information can be found at https://launchpad.net/~juliank/ and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JulianAndresKlode
<mvo> I would like to support juliank, he does good work on the packages and on the ubuntu<->debian bridge
<glatzor> good luck, juliank! my train leaves in a few minutes.
<juliank> glatzor: thx
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of mvo's testimonial and focus on ubuntu<->debian
<nealmcb>  sabdfl - note that Matthew Craig (desertc) did promptly respond when you asked - he's here
<desertc> Thanks, nealmcb!
<elmo> +1
<MikeB-> +1
<elmo> but JOOI, shouldn't/couldn't this kind of application go through the MOTU council?
<mvo> jooi?
<jussi01> just out of interest
<dholbach> +1 from me
<Kmos> sabdfl: i'll follow what dholbach said..
<Hattory> I go out.... great meeting, see you soon!!
<juliank> Cool :)
 * mvo hugs juliank
<dholbach> elmo: yeah, it could
<sabdfl> yes, folks should rather join a specific team and get membership that way
<sabdfl> or go to a regional group
<dholbach> elmo: ScottK prodded me about it some days ago - I'll make sure I look at all the membership information on the wiki and fix it to point to all the team councils we have in place
<sabdfl> i don't want to do membership in this forum any longer
<sabdfl> we have other business to attend to!
<dholbach> what's the hold-up regarding the membership approval boards or whatever they're going to be called?
<sabdfl> i don't know!
<dholbach> I think we all agreed on the spec and filled the gaps in it
<sabdfl> jono? i think we're just trying to put together the lists
<dholbach> alright... once Jono's back again, I'll ping him about it
<dholbach> alright... seems that Andre_Gondim is next on the agenda?
<pleia2> desertc is here
<Andre_Gondim> may I?
<nealmcb> desertc
<nealmcb> you skipped desertc
<Andre_Gondim> I am a Brazian guy. I use a Linux since 2002 and met the Ubuntu about two years and IÂ´m Brazilian Translation Member ans member of Brazilian LocoTeam, this is my greatest contribution as you can see here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+topcontributors . I will talk about Launchpad with focus in Translation in a local event about linux. I am active in #ubuntu-br to help and support in Portuguese Language.
<desertc> *wave*
<Andre_Gondim> I write somethings I learned about Ubuntu in my Blog http://andregondim.eti.br to share with others. IÂ´m Brazilian Planeta Member http://planeta.ubuntu-br.org and very active member in the Brazilian LocoTeam. In the future I want to continue to translate Ubuntu until it becomes 100% Portuguese. My UbuntuÂ´s wiki is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreGondim my Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~andre-gondim
<dholbach> desertc: oh... sorry for that, missed it
<profoX`> poor desertc :P
<profoX`> that's the second time
<AndreNoel> hi, Andre_Gondim has all my support to become a member. As leader of brazilian portuguese translators team I can say that he is doing a very great job on translations. He's a very good (and fast) commiter.
<desertc> :-D
<Andre_Gondim> :D
<AndreNoel> :P
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of a strong track record in translations
<dholbach> wow... definitely +1 from me too
<dholbach> MikeB-, elmo? :)
<MikeB-> +1
<josevitor> Andre_Gondim writes on Planet Ubuntu-BR and helps others on tutorials and how-to.
<josevitor> He also translates a lot!!
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> congratulations Andre_Gondim
<Andre_Gondim> Thanks!! :D
<AndreNoel> congrats!
<dholbach> desertc? :)
<sabdfl> congrats Andre_Gondim
<sabdfl> desertc: you're up!
<desertc> Greetings all!  I am a huge Ubuntu promoter within my community.  I feel it is especially important to let schools and educators know about the availability.  I attend education trade conferences, for example.  I am also a fan of the Ubuntu online collaboration tools, and I try being as helpful as possible for several teams.  One big interest for me right now is the Ubuntu Students team I co-founded a couple months ago.
<huats> Andre_Gondim: congrats !!
<penguim> Andre_Gondim, congrats
<penguim> Andre_Gondim, very fast
<pleia2> big cheers for desertc from me, I'm on the US Mentors team and worked very closely with him when the US-TN team was having some trouble, he did a lot of work with them - no he's regularly going to conferences and making connections
<Spec> I've talked with desertc over the phone and in person to help him get through troubles with setting up and organizing a LoCo team, and am a member of the Ubuntu Students Team. He's doing great work for the Tennesse LoCo.
<Andre_Gondim> penguim :D
<nealmcb> As an observer from Colorado, I've seen desertc recently and enthusiastically jump into the Tennessee Team, do some organizing and go to a number of education conferences.  As I told him before, my only reservation is the length of time he has been active in the Ubuntu community, though he has been active elsewhere for longer.  I hope he continues to be active with us.
<pleia2> he just recently put the US-PA team into contact with someone from the National Science Foundation who is doing FOSS work in our region! :)
<profoX`> I think it's great that you are interested in the ubuntu/education link :) after all, those kids are the next generation, and if they grow up using open source software like ubuntu, it'll be a really good thing :) for the rest, you seem to be quite active in multiple areas.. i want to give him my support.
<ogra> is desertc on (sorry my line dropped, i dont want to miss cheering for him as great edubuntu iso tester)
<sabdfl> desertc: how long have you been active in ubuntu?
<sabdfl> we usually look for a contribution sustained over at least six months
<desertc> I began using the operating system late last year, but I did not take the plunge into the community later... mid 2007.
<ogra> sabdfl, he was very actively helping in edubuntu iso testing through nearly the whole gutsy cycle (probably rather 4-5months though)
<desertc> Up until then I had employment that had me traveling and on the road so much that it was difficult.
<nealmcb> sabdfl: - from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto - at least two months of visible, significant activity - might want to reconcile those
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me, lots of energy, thank you!
<MikeB-> +1 for me
<elmo> +1
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<popey> a cheer for desertc from me, very enthusiastic and eager to help
<ogra> congrats desertc !
 * nealmcb cheers for desertc
<dholbach> huats: your stage :)
<huats> Well, my name is Christophe Sauthier, I am French and I am 30.
<huats> I am using Linux since 1995-96, going through many distros : Suse (for 3
<huats> years), Debian (5 years) and Ubuntu since Warty.
<huats> A couple of years ago I started to do some translations for a few
<huats> FOSS, and than I discovered rosetta where I've done some french
<huats> translation on it.
<norsetto> GO HUATS GO!!!
<huats> Since I am a technical person, I've decided to help out on another
<desertc> Thank you for the cheers.  Much appreciated.
<huats> level after last year GUADEC, and I tried to do some packaging. It was
<huats> great. But due a lack of time, I had to stop right after I had some
<huats> very rough basics. I just took the time to continue some work of
<huats> interview translations. I was part of BehindUbuntu (and before that also in a
<huats> french project that has the same goal).
<huats> For the last 6 months, I have decided to take more time to give back
<huats> to the Community and especialy to Ubuntu.
<huats> I have taken some responsabilities in the french Loco, and I am right
<huats> now one the responsibles for the whole ubuntu-fr site
<huats> (www/planet/forum/wiki). I've also been involved in some other aspect
<huats> life  of the french loco (tshirt order, gutsy cd order...).
<huats> Late August I resume my packaging road, and start doing some stuffs in
<huats> the MOTU community. Right now, I try to be an active contributor, in
<huats> order to become a MOTU one day. I am part of the mentoring program,
<huats> with Daniel Holbach as my mentor.
<huats> You can find some aspects of my contributions here :
<huats> https://launchpad.net/~christophe-sauthier and
<huats> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristopheSauthier
<huats> Oups .... that was a bit long (the copy/paste)
<huats> And of course, I'll be happy to answer your questions...
<dholbach> a clear +1 from me: good work in the french community, good work in the MOTU team, a friendly contributor who helps out where he can
<ScottK> +1 from me on MOTU involvement.
<norsetto> if I'm allowed to vote, a +2 from me, great guy, helpuful and always available, will be a great MOTU very soon
<dholbach> and with that, I have to leave - I'm sorry ... have a nice day
<sabdfl> +1 from me too!
<sabdfl> huats: excellent documentation of your contributions, and i'm very happy with the strength of the french loco team
<MikeB-> +1
<elmo> +1
<huats> sabdfl: thanks
<huats> I'll let the other guys know
<dholbach> congratulations huats
<huats> dholbach: thanks :)
<dholbach> see you guys tomorrow
<sabdfl> cheers and thanks dholbach
<norsetto> huats: congrat huats, how would you like your pizza tonight to celebrate?
<sabdfl> alrighty
<huats> norsetto: hum... let me think about :)
<sabdfl> jelmer: around?
<huats> norsetto: thanks
<jelmer> sabdfl: hi!
<jelmer> My name is Jelmer Vernooij. I'm a CS student and Ubuntu user living in the Netherlands working on various upstream projects, the main ones being Samba, Bazaar and OpenChange.
<sabdfl> nice to see you here in a different context :-)
<jelmer> I've contributed to the packaging of these projects and a couple of other packages within Debian and Ubuntu.
<jelmer> The reason I'd like to become a MOTU is so I can continue to work on these packages and help within integration of them in Ubuntu (in particular for Samba).
<sabdfl> jelmer has done great things in bzr
<jelmer> My launchpad user id 'jelmer', http://launchpad.net/~jelmer/
<jelmer> sabdfl: :-)
<jelmer> I'd be happy to answer any questions
<sabdfl> jelmer: where would you say you make your biggest contribution to Ubuntu?
<jelmer> At the moment Bazaar packaging I think
<sabdfl> have you had a look at bzr-buildpackage?
<sabdfl> i'm not sure if i have the right name for it...
<jelmer> sabdfl: Yep - I use it regularly, and even contributed to it a bit
<imbrandon> and hopefully OpenChange later, thats a really promising project :)
<JanC> bzr-builddeb ?
<jelmer> bzr-builddeb is the name of the package, but it also provides a 'bzr-buildpackage' binary
<jelmer> bzr-builddeb works really well with tags support in bzr - it can export upstream for you
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i'm going to +1 jelmer because i know him and have watched his quality of contribution
<sabdfl> though the wiki page might be a bit thin for others?
<elmo> I'm fine with +1-ing too, but probably equally biased
<MikeB-> +1 for me
<jelmer> There is a list of my packages here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~jelmer/+packages, and list of bugs I'm involved with: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~jelmer/
<sabdfl> guys, i have to step out
<elmo> we lost dholbach and burgundavia too
<elmo> so that's +3 for jelmer, but I think we'll have to stop now
<bbartek> :(
<pvandewyngaerde> i'm here for bbartek
<sabdfl> if bart is around, then +1 from me for him too!
<sabdfl> thanks all
<bbartek> sabdfl: hi
<sabdfl> hey bbartek
<jelmer> thanks!
<bbartek> thx sabdfl
<SWAT> supporting bbartek (testimonial is on the wikipage)
<elmo> heh
<sabdfl> sorry i won't get to chat, but i read over your page and am happy to +1 you
<rulus> I'd like to cheer for bbartek, he does great work in the Dutch forums and helps out at computerfairs in Belgium. He's a very passionate Ubuntu advocate and recently organised a Gutsy release party with 100+ attendees :)
<elmo> bbartek: ok, want to do your intro?
<bbartek> I'm not a programmer so I concentrate my efforts on promotional / marketing activities. You can reed my contributions so far in the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BartBroeckx
<MikeB-> from Mark van den Boore: Bart Broeckx, a community member from Belgium, will be up for
<MikeB-> membership tomorrow. He's a really good guy and invaluable to both
<MikeB-> ubuntu-be.org and ubuntu-nl.org. But of course it's up to you guys to
<MikeB-> decide on his membership application.
<bbartek> My future plans: Ubuntu-be has good contacts with Ubuntu-nl. I'm now working with the 2 teams to ceate a dutch speaking marketing team, for Ubuntu-be and Ubuntu-nl so we can work more closely and combine and coÃ¶rdinate our actions.
<profoX`> (i'm here to cheer for bbartek too.. very active in ubuntu-BE and ubuntu-NL and has organized an awesome releaase party in Belgium [+100 visitors] and is planning an even bigger one)
<elmo> MikeB-: have you (or anyone) been doing LP so far?
<bbartek> In May I will host a Release Party with www.cats&dogs.com We hope to make this one much bigger (300-500 people) then the last one in October.
<MikeB-> elmo: no
<elmo> bbartek: www.cats&dogs.com ?
<profoX`> http://www.catsanddogs.com/
<JanC> & â and I guess
<bbartek> I made Catsanddogs do the switch from Windows to Ubuntu on there office pc's.
<elmo> oh
<elmo> I thought IDN sneaked up on me while I wasn't watching
<MikeB-> elmo: I got the log, will do it later
<elmo> MikeB-: ok, cool, thanks
<bbartek> Happy to answer some more questions
<JanC> I can say Bart has helped with several events (fair booths & release party)
<MikeB-> bart has my +1 between his wiki and large cheering section:)
<JanC> and he helps on the Dutch forum too
<SWAT> and that's all on the wiki page by the way
<bbartek> I'm a moderator of the dutch forum thx JanC
<elmo> yeah, +1 from me too
<JanC> and I carpooled with him twice to go to ubuntu-nl meetings  ã
 * profoX` once too ;)
<bbartek> Thx elmo
<elmo> bbartek: congrats
<ogra> +1 for carpooling and saving the environment :)
<elmo> ok, I think that's a wrap then - thanks everyone
<SWAT> can we congratulate bbartek or not?
<MikeB-> look like, thanks all
<bbartek> Thank you so much, thx everybody for supporting me
<MikeB-> Swat: yup
<elmo> SWAT: sure, he got +3
<profoX`> good job bbartek :)
<pvandewyngaerde> congratulations
 * bbartek is so happy
<somerville32> Did kmos do his?
<MikeB-> somerville32: I think the MOTU council want to talk to him
<MikeB-> somerville32: he removed himself for now
<somerville32> okay.
<MikeB-> later all
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Dec 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<juliux> hi all
<somerville32> Hi
<juliux> has somebody the logfile from the cc meeting?
<somerville32> !irclogs | juliux
<juliux> !logs
<ubotu> juliux: Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<juliux> somerville32, i should read the topic;)
<somerville32> :]
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-30
<quadrispro> hi
<somerville32> hi
<coolbhavi> hello.. I am a new ubuntu member.. How to get a @ubuntu.com domain
<coolbhavi> ?
<somerville32> coolbhavi, see #ubuntu-ops
<Burgundavia> coolbhavi: it already exists, via your lp name
<Burgundavia> your email is $lp@ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> it might take a few weeks to activate, however
<coolbhavi> OK..
<coolbhavi> and how to recognise myself as an ubuntu member on the irc?
<Palintheus> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
<Palintheus> bottom of the page
<somerville32> oh wait, e-mail
<somerville32> I thought he said cloak, lol
<Palintheus> think he ended up asking about both
<coolbhavi> Please guide me I m not understanding.......!
<Palintheus> for the cloak join #ubuntu-ops and ask for one, explain you are a newly approved member
<coolbhavi> OK got it....
<Palintheus> the email will be automatically set up, it just may take a while, to test send an email to <lp nick>@ubuntu.com and if its activated it will be forwarded to your main nick on your lp profile
<coolbhavi> OK thanks
<kraut> moin
<dholbach> hey kraut
<Hattory> @schedule europe/rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
<nxvl_work> @schedule america/lima
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Lima: 01 Dec 06:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 14:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 11:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 15:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting
<effie_jayx> !now
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<effie_jayx> !time
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about time - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 30 2007, 22:02:31 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 12 hours 57 minutes
<effie_jayx> @now sydney
<ubotu> Current time in Australia/Sydney: December 01 2007, 09:02:42 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 12 hours 57 minutes
<Hattory> @now rome
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Rome: November 30 2007, 23:50:48 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 12 hours 9 minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-01
<Zelut> if there is anyone lurking in here for the us teams bug education event we're going to be in #ubuntu-us. my apologies.
<Dev_noob> join #ubuntu-us
<Dev_noob> oops
<Palintheus> heh
<Dev_noob>  Fedex and UPS should have trebuchet shipping options
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
<Hattory> @now rome
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Rome: December 01 2007, 10:32:47 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 1 hour 27 minutes
<txwikinger> @schedule London
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 Dec 11:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 19:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting
<thorwil> @schedule Berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 01 Dec 12:00: Kubuntu Developers | 01 Dec 20:00: Art Team | 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<kwwii> Riddell: I have to pick my wife and son up in about 30min, so I'll miss at least part of the the meeting
<Riddell> ok
 * Hobbsee waves
<_StefanS_> hi there
 * stdin eats toast
<_StefanS_> did I make the meeting ? :)
<stdin> it'll start in a couple mins
<allee> _StefanS_: of course
<jxxt> four minutes early I believe
<dthacker> good localtime all
 * dthacker wishes the coffee pot would drip faster
<ardchoille> lol
 * imbrandon yawns
<ardchoille> imbrandon: Never got to say this before, but thank you for the mirror :)
<imbrandon> ardchoille: np, not sure which mirror you speak of but yw ( i have lots of mirrors ) :)
<ardchoille> imbrandon: Seveas
<ardchoille> I used it for a while in Edgy and Feisty
<imbrandon> ahh okies :) ( i also run mirror.imbrandon.com full ubuntu mirror :P )
<ardchoille> Oh, didn't realise that
<Riddell> Good Morning Friends
<stdin> mornin' :)
<_StefanS_> morning
<kwwii> Riddell: hey man, did you see me earlier message?
<Riddell> we have an agenda here https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<imbrandon> moins Riddell
<Riddell> kwwii: I did
<Riddell> shall we start with membership?
<Riddell> is CarlosCabezas here?
<Riddell> how about RubenDÃ­azAlonso ?
<Riddell> then maybe we have TerenceSimpson?
<Hobbsee> stdin: is here
<stdin> yep
<Riddell> stdin: care to give yourself a brief intro
<Hobbsee> nixternal: has already voted onlist for this.
<stdin> ok
<Riddell> and say why you want to be a Kubuntu member
<Lure> hello all
<stdin> My name is Terence Simpson (please no jokes ;)
<stdin> I've been using Kubuntu since 2005 and started getting involved with mostly support
<stdin> since then I've tried to learn more about how kubuntu is put together and about things like packaging
<stdin> the reason I want to become a kubuntu member is because I think Kubuntu is Kool :) and I'd like to get more involved with Kubuntu
<Riddell> good reason :)
<Riddell> stdin is the hero of kde 4 rc 1 gutsy backports
<Hobbsee> and so he can get access to the kubuntu members PPA
<stdin> Hobbsee: yeah, that too :p
<Hobbsee> stdin: what would your hope be for ongoing builds of kde4?
<Riddell> stdin: plenty more working needing done on those KDE 4 packages, would you want to get more involved with that?
 * Lure hugs stdin for kde4 packages
<Hobbsee> as in, how often would you hope kubuntu would be providing them, and are you interested in helping out?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, they need to cleanly install :P
<stdin> well, I would love to help with the KDE 4 packaging. when I did it last time I found it a bit of a learning curve but quite a good experience
<stdin> I have seen more than a few people asking about kde releases in #kubuntu
<_StefanS_> +1 for your kde4 packages, work great here :)
 * dthacker notes that stdin is a positive presence in #kubuntu and has helped him several times
<stdin> and I would like to help to "get it out there"
<Lure> stdin: so you compete with Jucato on #kubuntu?
<Lure> ;-)
<Jucato> nah. he has completely taken over :)
<stdin> Lure: nah, he always wins
<Riddell> more info on stdin in this thread https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2007-November/002021.html
<Jucato> (which is good, means I can relax more :P)
<Lure> stdin, Jucato: competition is always good ;-)
<Riddell> any more questions?
<Tonio_> no questions for me
<JohnFlux> has the meeting finished?
<waylandbill> FWIW, I've heard that stdin writes good C++, although I've not had a chance to examine it.
<jpatrick> JohnFlux: just started
<Lure> Riddell: no, I am all fine to give stdin +1
<Riddell> +1 from me too
<kwwii> +1 as well
<Hobbsee> +1
<Tonio_> stdin has done 10 times more than what's required for membership so +10 for me
<ardchoille> I know stdin from #kubuntu and has been in that chanel as long as I can remember. He is quick to give good advice and is very knowledgable, IMHO. I would like to see stdin become a member.
<Tonio_> ;)
<Hobbsee> easily done.
<Lure> and I am feeling that we will get new motu candidate soon ;-)
<Riddell> congratulations stdin
<Jucato> \o/
<Riddell> anyone else here for membership?
<ardchoille> Yay!
<Tonio_> welcome in the teams stdin !
<dthacker> yay!
<imbrandon> congrats stdin
<jpatrick> congrats stdin!
<Lure> congrats stdin and keep up with great work!
 * stdin does a victory dance, then gets dizzy and falls down 
<waylandbill> congrats
<Jucato> stdin: congrats
<jpatrick> hi mhb
<stdin> thanks :)
 * JohnFlux pipes stdin to stdout
<Jucato> heh )
<Hobbsee> ...there's another stdin
<Jucato> :)
<waylandbill> better than to stderr. ;)
 * Hobbsee throws that one out
<mhb> hello and congratulations to stdin
<jpatrick> Well that's it for the member canditates, seeing as the others aren't around
<allee> congrats stdin
<stdin> thanks
<Lure> jpatrick: we can probably remove other two, as they even do not have wiki page
<Riddell> allee: your topic seems to be first
<Hobbsee> * Guillaume Martres (Smarter)  here?
<allee> k
<jpatrick> Lure: well they're both admins of kubuntu-es.org
<Lure> jpatrick: but they need to write proper wiki presentation
<allee> Me wondered if it's worth to add permanent meeting Topics about:
<allee> News/Critics/Problems/Status to Upstream: KDE, Debian KDE Packages
<allee>  Ditto for our Users: About feedback, requests, complain
<ardchoille> I have a question and a request regarding Hardy. If this is the right place to post it, let me know when.
<Lure> allee: it makes sense, but we should first agree to have more regular meetings
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: has wikilock.
<mhb> ardchoille: ask in kubuntu-devel preferably
<Jucato> ardchoille: perhaps later in #kubuntu-devel
<ardchoille> Ah, ok.
<Jucato> er.. I'm an echo :)
<Riddell> Lure++
<Lure> Riddell: I would start with every 2nd week or so
<Tonio_> I just added a last point to discuss :) sorry for this
 * allee nods
<Lure> Riddell: even monthly would be better than ad-hoc
<Hobbsee> Lure: every month was the plan, and worked fine until i got snowed under with exam stuff
<jpatrick> that's what I said :)
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: should be okay now
<Riddell> anybody have News/Critics/Problems/Status to Upstream: KDE, Debian KDE Packages?
<Riddell> I know I need to send the debian kde packagers a diff of our kde 3 packages now they are merged
 * Hobbsee gives back the wikilock
<Hobbsee> yeah, please make sure you send stuff back - some of us have direct commit access, and bribes are accepted.
<ardchoille> hehe
<Tonio_> every month doesn't seem enough to me, depending the status of the dev cycle
<imbrandon> yea but monthy is better than ad-hoc :)
<Tonio_> maybe every 2 weeks and monthly after feature freeze or something like that
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: well, duh :)
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: that sounds sane.
<ardchoille> I agree with Tonio_ , perhaps every 2 weeks?
<allee> I'm not aware of 'upstream' problems/suggestions.
<Tonio_> also we should consider extra meetings especially for feedback on beta releases for example
<Riddell> lets try every two weeks, should keep meeting shorter if nothing else
<Lure> Riddell: I do not see open issues now, but I expect some work is needed jointly with debian on PolicyKit/ConsoleKit support in KDE
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: yea i have alioth commit access now too, and should be arround alot more this cycle fwiw, got all the RL streightend out and been back for a few months now
<Lure> Riddell: I see that gnome packages already dopted it
<Riddell> Lure: consolekit we have already
<jpatrick> Lure: we have it too
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: great!
<Riddell> at least for kde 3
<Tonio_> I'll give you one example : we didn't get feedback for gutsy beta, and didn't consider people's dissapointment with strigi and dolphin for example
<Lure> Riddell: great, but my usb stick still does not work
<allee> AFAIU debian does not use a seperate install tree but use FHS for KDE$
<Lure> Tonio_: I agree - we should reconsider such changes again based on beta feedback
<Hobbsee> allee: FHS?
<Riddell> Lure: works fine here (hardy install from yesterday)
<Lure> Hobbsee: File Hierarchy Standard
<Hobbsee> Lure: oh right
<Lure> Riddell: ok, then something is wrong with my setup, will look into it
<Riddell> shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
<Hobbsee> oh
<Hobbsee> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:20. The chair is Hobbsee.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Riddell> since it's on the agenda
<Hobbsee> forgot that
<Tonio_> Riddell: I added the point on the wiki, and I consider that yes, we should
<Hobbsee> TOPIC: shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
<Hobbsee> TOPIC shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
<Tonio_> especially dolphin imho
<mhb> I guess we should
 * allee removed strigi
<jpatrick> Hobbsee: with a # in front maybe?
<Hobbsee> #TOPIC shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
 * Lure too
 * Tonio_ removed dolphin ;)
<Tonio_> and strigi
<Riddell> personally I love dolphin, I've started using a GUI file manager since we got it
<Hobbsee> [TOPIC] shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
<MootBot> New Topic:  shall we discuss strigi and dolphin?
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: ITYM "[TOPIC]"
<Hobbsee> hurrah!
 * Mithrandir ruffles Hobbsee 
<waylandbill> I don't mind dolphin but it sometimes won't paste to remote fish locations, which is a problem for what I'd use it for.
<Riddell> what are the arguments against it?
<Tonio_> there are lots of problems with dolphin
<Lure> Riddell: I am also fine with dolphin as default, but we should have easy way for users to switch back
<ardchoille> I dislike dolphin because it lacks a tabbed ui and there is no easy way to enable a tree view.
<Tonio_> lack of support for ark is the best example
<mhb> personal preferences, lack of maintainers
<imbrandon> Riddell: no tabs :(
<Lure> Tonio_: not sure if this are problems for typical users - probably stdin and Jucato can give some feedback from support channel
 * _StefanS_ removed all dolphin aswell
<Tonio_> also, there are lots of bugs that maybe some of us don't see but that really causes problems to the user
<risto> i think dolphin should have also tree view
<kwwii> Tonio_: the ark thing is pretty bad
<ardchoille> Also lacks a way to delete a file/folder or empty the trash
<Lure> imbrandon: that is power user feature
<mhb> a hard way to switch back - but I think that plagues us for some releases
<stdin> from what I've seen, the only reason people are so resistant to dolphin is because it's not konqueror
<Jucato> Hardy is an LTS release. d3lphin seems to be unmaintained by the main forker/developer. we'll be doing almost all of the fixing and adding of features to make it usable. are we willing to do that for the lifetime of Hardy?
<Tonio_> graphical bugs when switching to twin panel
<allee> Poweruser removing dolphin does not count!!!  That's expected !!!!
<Hobbsee> seeing as we're not dolphin developers, is there any great point in discussing how dolphin should be changed?
<_StefanS_> stdin: lack of features, stability also...
<Tonio_> dolphin sometimes looses user's preferences (I've seen that and it's been reported)
<imbrandon> Lure: ever since every browser on the planet got tabs , tabs are no longer a "power" feature in apps
<Jucato> Hobbsee: there are no d3lphin developers (emphasis on plural)...
<Lure> imbrandon: they are for file mgmt interface
<Tonio_> kde devs seems pretty much concerned by this problem and by our dolphin giving bad feeling to the user....
<dthacker> Jucato: Is upstream non-maintained or the Kubuntu package?
<Hobbsee> i would have thought the better discussion would be on "based on what we know the failures of dolphin to be, what do we want to do about it in kubuntu?
<_StefanS_> imho dolphin isn't mature
<stdin> _StefanS_: yeah, but most people aren't even willing to try dolphin to start with. they see it's not what they are used to and don't like to change
<Jucato> dthacker: upstream (one man team)
<stdin> (IMHO)
<Tonio_> I agree with dolphin on kubuntu, but please don't make it the default !
<ardchoille> Dolphin does not keep hidden files viewable across sessions, the option doesn't "stick"
<dthacker> ouch! that's thin for LTS.
<Tonio_> cause konqueror, despite it's problems, is way more mature
<mhb> there is little sense in putting dolphin and not making it default.
<Lure> stdin: if they do not want to change, we should make it easy to swicth back
<_StefanS_> stdin: well my wife hated it too, and she's no poweruser, nor does she use adv. features
<imbrandon> mhb: +1
<stdin> Lure: agreed
<_StefanS_> stdin: thumbnail displays not behaving and so on
<stdin> _StefanS_: I'm not saying it's the only reason people don't like it, but a lot of people don't get past that one
<Tonio_> another problem is that due to the way we do the association with inode/directory, every kds update overwrites the settings and switch bad to dolphin
<Tonio_> which is nasty
<Riddell> spose we could just take a vote and see what way it goes
<Jucato> to be fair, I think mhb has started to fix some of d3lphin's biggest issues. I think that if we or someone is willing to do a lot of the heavy lifting on our side for the duration of LTS, we can keep d3lphin as the default
<Lure> stdin, Jucato: are there bug reports on #kubuntu or just "I prefer konquerer better"?
<mhb> I have read through many of the bug reports, some are pretty bad, but I think they are fixable
<_StefanS_> Jucato: not enough ressources
<Tonio_> Lure: most common issues discussed concern preferences lost
<Jucato> Lure: user opinion on this matter is a bit split. But I've observed that most complaints about d3lphin are due to d3lphin being broken
<Tonio_> Jucato: not enough ressources and too much for for ONE release only
<Jucato> (no tabs is just a minor nuisance compared to others)
<Lure> Tonio_: I understand users used to konq, but I am more concerned about new users
<Hobbsee> [ACTION] People to merge packages back in with the debian QT KDE extras team as much as possible
<MootBot> ACTION received:  People to merge packages back in with the debian QT KDE extras team as much as possible
<Lure> Tonio_: if you like konq, it is still there and we should make it easier to swicth
<Hobbsee> [ACTION] stdin is a new kubuntu member
<MootBot> ACTION received:  stdin is a new kubuntu member
 * allee does not dare to look at Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> allee: :P
<mhb> it is quite easy to say "we", but I think we should find volunteers for some actions, otherwise nobody does it
<Tonio_> Lure: to what I've seen, once you tell them "to tar.gz a file, you have to go command line" they consider dolphin is shit
<Hobbsee> allee: i've merged bits back
<Tonio_> Lure: that's my point
<mhb> for example, I volunteer to solve some of the evil bugs on D3lphin that are reported
<mhb> if it stays
<imbrandon> i just merged lots of bits back for underpinngs of libs amarok uses :)
<Hobbsee> mhb: +1
<imbrandon> heh
<Tonio_> and I really feel bad about that since I am the guy who suggested it's inclusion, which was a bad idea, really
<Lure> Tonio_: can we create a page with top bug list or just prioritize them in LP?
<Riddell> mhb: might you volunteer to add a "file manager" to Default Applications?
<Lure> mhb: you have my full support
<ardchoille> Riddell: That is an excellent idea
<Tonio_> Lure, mhb, Riddell: I'm okay to give dolphin a chance, but don't forget that hardy is lts
 * Jucato tried to figure out how to add a file manager chooser... but gave up :P
<Lure> mhb: I may look into some bugs too, as I like that we are not changing our mind every release
<waylandbill> I may be able to find time to help with D3lphin as well.
<Tonio_> so even if lots of things are done, we might consider removing it if that's not enough
<mhb> Riddell: I might try, but I hoped for other people to follow my example :o)
<dthacker> Tonio_: +1
<Lure> Tonio_: I know, but SRU are done primarily for security (not that big concern for dolphin) and major fixes
<mhb> Riddell: but if nobody else volunteers, I can attempt to do it
<Hobbsee> [ACTION] mhb, Lure, waylandbill and others to help solve some of d3phin's bigger issues
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mhb, Lure, waylandbill and others to help solve some of d3phin's bigger issues
<Tonio_> mhb: promissing not to go angry if we decide to drop it despite your work arround it ?
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: he'll probably just come and kill you, nothing major.
<imbrandon> lol
<Tonio_> mhb: cause I know the frustration of doing good work and see the work droped from kubuntu, bad feeling :)
<Jucato> can we set a deadline to see if these issues can be resolved? hopefully not at the last minute?
<mhb> Tonio_: I wont be angry publicly, I can promise that :o) I hoped that we can first decide and then vote
<Riddell> Jucato: feature freeze presumably
<Tonio_> mhb: I don't want to hurt you on that point, but of course I'll propose it's removal again if I'm convinced we go on the wrong way for hardy (lts)
<mhb> Tonio_: err, then take action
<Tonio_> mhb: my point is "are we sure to make it mature enough for default inclusion" ?
<Jucato> in an *LTS*
<Tonio_> never forget companies are looking for lts for example
 * _StefanS_ highly doubt that d3lphin will ever be mature before kde4 takes over
<mhb> I would like to know how many people would still vote against Dolphin if some of the major bugs were fixed and there would be the file manager chooser
<Tonio_> we can't release with something that is not as stable and mature than konqueror is
<Tonio_> is there a plan for ark inclusion ?
<Tonio_> fixing bugs is not enough, dolphin lacks features !
<Jucato> mhb: you have my vote *for* D3lphin if that happens
<dthacker> can we say "re-assess readiness in 6--8 weeks" and see how much work mhb and the other are able to get knocked out?
<ardchoille> Speaking as someone who has helped more than 200 people switch from other OS's to Ubuntu/Kubuntu, would you all like to hear what my clients are saying about dolphin?
<allee> mhb: I like dolphin UI and my kids too.  So without big bugs +1 from my POV
<Riddell> ardchoille: sure
<Tonio_> can we improve dolphin to the point it is mature enough to be used for 3 years in companies ?
<Jucato> ardchoille: fire away please :)
<Tonio_> that's the one and only question we should consider
<Tonio_> and my response is probably : no, to much work
<waylandbill> I could look at how to add a file manager choice in Default Apps, but don't want to commit to say that I can until I look at the coding involved. I think it would be helpful to have regardless of the ultimate default chosen.
<ardchoille> The bulk of the comments are more like "isn't that a gnome program? kde is powerful but dolphin seems to be dombed-down"
<Lure> mhb: can we create wiki page with top offenders and then prioritize
<ardchoille> *dumbed
<Tonio_> but mhb can do it, I'm fine with it, I just don't want to take the risk of getting him to work on it and then drop te package in 2 month cause it is too "touchy"
<mhb> Lure: bug reports will do, we can prioritize them
<Lure> ardchoille: we will have such comments also in kde4 (even though that dolhin improved)
<Lure> mhb: ok, will start there.
<Jucato> Lure: I gave mhb a list of top offending d3lphin bugs. I checked on them after a day or so and saw mhb has started doing work on it :)
<Lure> eveybody: check priorities/severity of bugs and put comments for top issues
<_StefanS_> Lure: dolphin in kde4 is way better
<Tonio_> waylandbill: I looked at that, and that's pretty hard to do
<Jucato> (and I lost the list so only mhb has it :P)
<Riddell> we should move on
<mhb> right
<Tonio_> waylandbill: not because of the module, but because apps have to be patched to use the defined value
<Riddell> I'm feeling that if top issues are fixed it'll be good to include in hardy
<Hobbsee> [action] people to prioritise d3lphin bugs, and fix them.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  people to prioritise d3lphin bugs, and fix them.
<allee> _StefanS_: but still not that mature :(
<Hobbsee> Riddell: +1
<Riddell> we can reassess around feature freeze
<Tonio_> Riddell: top issues and ark, please consider ark.....
<Riddell> next item is "Discuss KubuntuHardyCatchup." but there's no name next to it
<Jucato> yes, one of the most complained is Ark :)
<Hobbsee> er, do weekend meetings work better fo rpeople in general?
<Tonio_> Riddell: that's the one and only problem I consider really grave with dolphin
<ardchoille> I haven't seen any problems with ark, I love that app.
<Hobbsee> ardchoille: except when it crashes :)
<Tonio_> Riddell: maybe you don't use ark, but my mother can't go with tar command line.......
<jpatrick> Riddell: mine, I thought we'd talk on who's working on what and how it's going
<mhb> Hobbsee: they do for me, I have school until late in the evening
<Jucato> ardchoille: Ark integration in dolphin is what we mean )
<ardchoille> Hobbsee: Ah, ok. I've never had anything crash since Breezy
<ardchoille> Jucato: Ah, right.
<Hobbsee> ardchoille: try with a big file.
<Hobbsee> or a big set of files
<ardchoille> Oh
<Riddell> bonus points to segunda for being the first to implement part of KubuntuHardyCatchup
<Tonio_> ardchoille: no way to compress a file, only folders, no way to select the compression type, and tar.gz is evil if your user has windows etc......
<ardchoille> Tonio_: Ok
<Jucato> s/segunda/Serega/ :)
<Hobbsee> [topic] kubuntu hardy catchup!
<MootBot> New Topic:  kubuntu hardy catchup!
<Riddell> jpatrick: that's the dude :)
<waylandbill> Tonio_: I agree. have to have compression choices for sure.
<mhb> ah, I wonder who that was
<jpatrick> Riddell: or Jucato )
<Jucato> :)
<Riddell> jpatrick comes in a close second with LUKS support
<jpatrick> :)
<allee> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
<Riddell> still searching for helpers on User Hard Disk Mounting, Brightness Control, Compiz and Printing Tools
<Hobbsee> compiz should actually work now
<jpatrick> Compiz has started in https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/guidance/desktop-effects-kde
<Hobbsee> the compiz guys have been doing some work, but are having trouble getting it to build sometimes
<Lure> Riddell: I am a bit lost with laptop brightness key regression, but there is one user that want to help
 * allee plans to learn via helping with python qt4 (kde4) programming
<Lure> Riddell: I really do not get it where the key is lost
 * jpatrick too
<Tonio_> Lure: can't help on that point since pommed and macbook still work on that point, and I have no other machine than macbooks now :/
<Riddell> we shouldn't be coding anything in qt3 any more
<allee> Riddell: I'll have a look into the printing stuff.  Sounds interesting on first reading
<Riddell> allee: excellent :)
 * _StefanS_ could help test the brightness controls on a few local laptops
<Lure> Riddell: what about guidance powermanager? I know someone did initial qt4 port that sebas commited somewhere, but not sure if it makes sense to move it forward
<Riddell> _StefanS_: talk to Lure there
<Riddell> Lure: there's a power manager plasma applet for kde 4
<Riddell> not sure how complete it is, but that's the way to go
<Lure> Riddell: I will write mail to kubuntu-devel today and Cc interested people
<Hobbsee> it's shiny.  it even wroks
<Hobbsee> no idea if you can customize it, though
<_StefanS_> Lure: mail me when you would like stuff for brigthness tested
<Lure> _StefanS_: will write down some debugging notes today/tommorow
<allee> didn't qt3 powermanager use poll?  this should be fixable with qt4 dbus right?
<Tonio_> the question is more "should we still consider working on guidance-power-manager for hardy" ?
<Lure> _StefanS_: and I am trying to get one old dell laptop at work for testing (we only have HP around)
<Tonio_> seems mature enough for me
<Tonio_> the only big problem is the lack of translation
<Riddell> allee: yes, but we're close enough to kde 4 that we should just wait for that
<Lure> Tonio_: yep, that is also my impression
<Lure> allee: yes, that is fixable
<Lure> allee: just some work
<allee> Riddell: so Hardy will poll 3 years ?  :)
<mhb> moving on?
<Lure> allee: 1sec polling is not that bad if you look at your powertop output ;-)
<allee> Lure: :)
<Tonio_> is the lack of translation fixable or not ?
<Lure> allee: I can work on low level stuff (hal, dbus...), I am just not GUI developer ... ;-)
<Lure> Tonio_: lack of translation?
<Riddell> Tonio_: should be yes
<Tonio_> we are releasing with english powermanager for a long time now, an lts should have this fixed
<allee> Riddell: so mantra: is fix stabilize KDE3 for hardy.  Bigger tasks in qt4 so they can be used in KDE4 without chagnes?
 * Lure was not aware of that 
<Riddell> I didn't even know translation were broken
<Tonio_> Lure: powermanager is in english only
 * Lure needs to start Slovenian translations.. ;-)
<Riddell> allee: yes
<Tonio_> Lure: translations are done in kde
<Tonio_> just that we don't get them for some strange reason....
<Tonio_> we have to make this the top priority issue I suspect...
<Riddell> Hobbsee: action that
<Tonio_> imho LTS release means "corporate usage", and therefore priorities are a bit different on that point
<Riddell> me and Tonio_ to look into power manager translations
<Tonio_> Riddell: yup, I can spend time on taht point
<Hobbsee> [action] Riddell and Tonio_ to fix powermanager translations for hardy, as we appear to have none
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell and Tonio_ to fix powermanager translations for hardy, as we appear to have none
<Riddell> "Decide on regular meeting times" seems to be next
<jpatrick> I thought we did that..
<mhb> we did that already, didnt we?
<Hobbsee> [topic] Decide on regular meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:  Decide on regular meeting times
<_StefanS_> Lure: I have a dell laptop I could give you remote access to if you want to test dell specific stuff. obviously you cant see brigthness, but it may help you anyways
<Lure> mhb: we just need to decide on day and time
<Jucato> time and day?
<Jucato> yeah
<Hobbsee> [action] we will have meetings every 2 weeks, preferably on a weekend.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  we will have meetings every 2 weeks, preferably on a weekend.
<Hobbsee> this time works well for me.
<jpatrick> seems decided :)
<Riddell> hmm, weekends a are variable for people
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: +1
<Riddell> and this time doesn't work for US
<Lure> _StefanS_: will see,
<mhb> lets move times, but keep weekends
<_StefanS_> Lure: now you know ;)
<dthacker> time works if coffeepot works
<Hobbsee> erm, it probably won't be for me in 2 weeks, perhaps.  we'll see.
<Riddell> I think we should rotate between 11UTC and 23UTC
<ardchoille> I would like to know if there is a schedule or something that shows when and where new meetings will be held.. I'd like to attend future meetings
<Lure> Riddell: that sounds ok for me
<dthacker> Riddell: +1 on rotation
<Tonio_> Riddell: oki for me
<Hobbsee> ardchoille: kubuntu devel ML
<ardchoille> Hobbsee: ty
<stdin> ardchoille: and http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<Riddell> and I also think we should rotate between weekends and non weekends
<Lure> Riddell: actually I am also fine with weekday, if it is 11UTC (I can eat snack for lunch at work) ;-)
<ardchoille> stdin: Awesome, ty
<Riddell> I know I'll miss some weekends, I do like to get away from a computer  sometimes :)
<Tonio_> Riddell: and I'll blame you for this !
<ardchoille> lol
<Tonio_> Riddell: :)
<imbrandon> Tonio_: fwiw, i'm looking at the dolphin kde3 ark issues, i think i can have this fixed in less than 24 hours
<Riddell> well, mostly other people like to get me away from the computer
<imbrandon> Riddell: ^^
<dthacker> heresy!
<Tonio_> Riddell: you're a fake geek ^^
<Lure> Riddell: same here ;-)
<Tonio_> imbrandon: if we can you'll resolve 50% of dolphin problems
<Tonio_> Riddell: haha, I have the same problem
<Riddell> imbrandon: and tonio will love you
<imbrandon> yea i'm falling asleep here soon, but it seems trivial, i already have 2 of the things on your list fixed localy
 * Hobbsee will have trouble getting to meetings, but does anyway.
<Hobbsee> (unless i set them)
<Riddell> I say we try rotating between saturdays and wednesdays and 11UTC and 23UTC and stop caring about making sure everyone can turn up since that's imposible all the time
<Lure> Riddell: so wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa
<mhb> works for me.
<Riddell> Lure: well rotating
<Riddell> so a cycle of four meetings
<Lure> Riddell: ok
<ardchoille> stdin: Any way to get that calendar into my korganizer?
<Tonio_> wednesday 11utc is sensitive.....
<dthacker> +1 to the cycle of 4
<Tonio_> most people work at that time
<jpatrick> ardchoille: there's an ical somewhere
<Hobbsee> [action] 2 weekly meetings, wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa (4 cycle)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  2 weekly meetings, wed is 11UTC and sat is 23UTC or vice-versa (4 cycle)
<Lure> Tonio_: take lunch break, as I will do
<stdin> ardchoille: at the bottom of the page is a ical link
<ardchoille> stdin: Right, got it
<Tonio_> I might be there very often, as my company authorizes me to contribute, but not everyone as that chance
<Riddell> well lets try that
<Riddell> if there's meeting where nobody turns up, we'll know to change it
<Tonio_> Riddell: sure
<Riddell> "Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?"
<Riddell> that seems to be in place
<Riddell> "Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams"
<mhb> splendid.
<Hobbsee> [topic] Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Should we consider ScribesTeam/MootBot for handling our meeting minutes?
<Hobbsee> [topic] Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anyone want to take care of [WWW] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
<jpatrick> Riddell: seems the Kubuntu bit has some ??
<dthacker> Riddell: what is the task here?
<dthacker> cleanup and verify team status?
<Riddell> actually it means https://wiki.kubuntu.org/TeamReports
<Tonio_> [topic] Should we accept Riddell to expect having time for social life ?
<Jucato> lol
<Tonio_> na, doesn't work, I'm sorry !
<Tonio_> :)
<Riddell> it means writing down things as they happen over the month
<kwwii> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Artwork/ReportingPage is the artwork teams first report
<dthacker> "as they happen" meaning irc, ml ?
<Lure> Riddell: I think we just need main editor (as nixternal for announcements of releases) and then we could probably contribute after regular meetings
<Jucato> kwwii: over-all Ubuntu artwork team?
<Riddell> dthacker: well it can be written all at the end of the month, but I'm told its best to update things sooner so they aren't forgotten
<kwwii> Jucato: yepp
<kwwii> Jucato: we have a meeting this evening, drop in
 * Jucato not an artist. wanted to be one... art doesn't like him though... so does law :/
<ardchoille> I'm good with documentation/editing and would like to volunteer to help if needed.
<Jucato> kwwii: who are members from Kubuntu?
<Lure> Riddell: you are right, month is a long time to remeber
 * dthacker volunteers, as he can read irc and email better than he can package.
<Jucato> (yay, I was about to volunteer :P)
<dthacker> ardchoille: let's tag-team it
<Riddell> ardchoille, dthacker: excellent
<ardchoille> Just give me a task(s) and I'll do my best.
<kwwii> Jucato: pretty much only me although on the list there are several people using kde (but just commenting)
<kwwii> let's talk about this later
<Riddell> ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
<dthacker> I can do that.
<Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: you/we could probably make a wiki for everything that has been discussed first, then we pick out the juicy ones or ones that have links to other wiki pages.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: action!
<Jucato> (sort of like an idea pool/scratchpad before we actually add to the team report page)
<Hobbsee> [action] ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ardchoille, dthacker: hang around on #kubuntu-devel and keep the team report up to date when interesting things happen (including a pointer to the mootbot minutes of this meeting)
<dthacker> Jucato: ++
<Lure> Jucato: great idea - and we can subscribe to page to get notifications
<Riddell>  AndrewYoung3  asks about a new package manager
<Riddell> dunno if he's about but that's what packagekit is trying to do
<Lure> dthacker, ardchoille: just name page Kubuntu something and I will get notification ;-)
<Hobbsee> mhb's been talking about this too
<Jucato> whois Vaelen
<Jucato> oops...
<Jucato> that works with a / :P
<Tonio_> Riddell: packagekit is way to young to consider it now
<Lure> Riddell: packagekit apt-get backend is not good enough for hardy
<mhb> I have, but there is not much we can do for Hardy
<dthacker> KubuntuDevNews? ardchoille, what do you think?
<Riddell> no it's for hardy+1
<Tonio_> Riddell: btw package manager is REALLY suprt sentitive to replace, an lts release is not the place for testing a new package manager
<mhb> I say lets wait what happens
<Tonio_> Riddell: but I'm all for testing it with hardy+1
<ardchoille> dthacker: Sounds good. But where will it be and will I have write access?
<Riddell> Tonio_: nobody is suggesting that
<Jucato> at this point there's not much we can do about package management for Hardy except clean, fix and polish
<mhb> if it will be testing-worthy after Hardy, well test it
<Tonio_> Riddell: I know, that was just me anticipating the question :)
<Riddell> mhb: had the next item
<dthacker> ardchoille: on the wiki, and yes, if you are registered.
<Jucato> ardchoille: it's a wiki. everyone has write access :)
<ardchoille> dthacker: That answers the access question :)
<Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: let's go to #kubuntu-devel about this after the meeting :)
<dthacker> ok
<ardchoille> Jucato: I'm there
<mhb> yes, I was inspired by the Jucato blogs about the Kubuntu identity and vision
<Jucato> uh oh
 * Jucato hides
<ardchoille> hehe
 * Lure pulls Jucato back ;-)
<mhb> after the OpenWeek it became clear that if we are to be best, we have to start caring about ourselves and not wait on Godot
<Jucato> coincidentally, openSUSE released something like that a few days (weeks?) after I made that blog post
<stdin> law suit!
<ardchoille> Jucato: I wonder where they got the idea
<dthacker> hehe
<Riddell> I'm pretty sure the opensuse document had been in process for a long time
<Jucato> yeah :)
<mhb> are we going to keep being what we are? Standing in the shadow of Ubuntu and GNOME?
<mhb> or are we going to try to be more self-promoting?
<ardchoille> mhb: I say "NO!"
<Lure> mhb: if you are talking about Canonical, probably yes - only great demand for Kubuntu support might change that
 * Jucato wished nixternal were here though
<Jucato> Lure: according to nixternal, Kubuntu has actually more deployments than Ubuntu (Desktop)
<Tonio_> Jucato: yes, but not paying support
<mhb> Lure: yeah, they wont support as (even through advertisement) until we start earning money for them
<Lure> mhb: I think we need to fix the press announcements - we should get out of Ubuntu announcements, as they just raise expectations about having same features in Kubuntu
<Tonio_> Jucato: most companies in france install kubuntu, but don't pay canonical for support, local companies like mine do it
<Jucato> :(]
<Tonio_> Jucato: welcome to free software :)
<mhb> in my opinion a marketing team should be created that would aim to increase Kubuntu visibility
<Lure> Tonio_: we just need more companies like yours giving some community time to their employees
<Tonio_> that's life, and I consider this a good thing, but yeah, canonical doing more for kubuntu is unlikelly to happen
<Tonio_> Lure: that's the plan yes
<Lure> mhb: I would support that, I am just not the person that could help there
<Lure> Tonio_: I am glad that they are paying Riddell and sending CD's
<mhb> Lure: I would join it, but then I wouldnt have time for development
<Lure> however it would be good to fix the CD shippments to LoCo's (small amount for Kubunut)
<Lure> mhb: nixternal is natural candidate, we may also help kwwii and sebas (but he is busy with kde marketing I am sure)
<Lure> s/help/ask for help/
<Lure> anybody else that would help in improving Kubuntu message to the world?
<jpatrick> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMarketing ?
<mhb> Riddell: what about you? Are you happy with the current situation?
<nosrednaekim> Erm, I could try,what would I have to do?
<Jucato> Lure: we could try to first draw up a sort of vision/mission statement, something to express our identity and goals. otherwise we might be sending vague messages
<kwwii> I think it is unfair to ask Riddell that in his position
<mhb> it is
<kwwii> in this format
<mhb> however, I would like to hear his opinion
<Jucato> kwwii: +1
<allee> we can \sh and andreas again.  They've spent lots of thoughts on this topic already
<Jucato> it would be nice to hear his opinion, but I don't think it would be easy for him to do so freely. :)
<Riddell> I don't really know what to say
<mhb> true, who knows who will read the log :o)
 * mhb takes the question back, then
<Riddell> I'd rather Ubuntu were more an umbrella brand and we were one of the variants on offer
<Lure> mhb: we all have to understand that canonical has also limited resources and needs to set priorities
<Lure> mhb: I do not like focus to gnome, but can understand it
<mhb> Lure: I can understand it, too
<mhb> Lure: my question is different
<Riddell> but I realise having two products that target much the same areas is bad commercially
<mhb> Lure: what should we as a team do?
<Lure> mhb: make it rock!
<mhb> Lure: do nothing or try to propagate ourselves?
<Riddell> I'm not especially good at the whole vision thing
<mhb> Lure: we have relied on Canonical to provide marketing in the past, but seeing as they concentrate on Ubuntu and will limit the marketing for Kubuntu, I say we should propagate ourselves more
<allee> One of the points was: if kubuntu more .org or canonocals.com.   If it's .org and makes it's own marketing then other firms will probably  jump in
<Lure> mhb: I think we need to use kde4 as much as possible - kubuntu with kde4 should really rock
<Lure> mhb: and I think skipping it for hardy as actually good thing
<allee> Lure: not before 4.0.3 I assume
<Lure> mhb: queation is if we should not allign our next released (hardy based) on kde 4.1 release
<Tonio_> mhb: +1 on everything
<Lure> allee: I would expect kde 4.1 to follow soon after 4.0 (less than 6 month), more like a catch-up release
<Riddell> Lure: that may well come out around hardy+1 time anyway
<Riddell> it won't be much less than 6 months I imagine
<imbrandon> Riddell: are we past alpha-1 freeze, aka i can upload my dolphin fixes ( i have the ark fixes complete )
<imbrandon> ?
<Lure> Riddell: you are probably right, we need to monitor closely
<Riddell> imbrandon: upload away
<imbrandon> kk
<allee> imbrandon: cool
<Riddell> mhb: we should always be on the look out for chances to market ourselves
<dthacker> mhb: what is the gap that Canonical is leaving?  Then we can fill it.
<Lure> imbrandon: untuil the meeting finishes, please fix the remaining 50% of problems Tonio_ is seeing
<Lure> imbrandon: you rock!
<imbrandon> hehe
<Tonio_> imbrandon: thanks :)
<imbrandon> np :)
<nosrednaekim> I have a question,why can't we start integrating KDE4 apps?
<nosrednaekim> like the new dolphin is amazing, as is the new Kate
<nosrednaekim> the dekstop may not be ready, but the apps arefor the most part.
<Lure> Riddell: can we talk with Canonical to fix Kubuntu LoCo CD shippments? (like be able to choose preference)?
<Riddell> Lure: worth a shot
<Lure> Riddell: here, people like kde much more than gnome, so lot's of cd will not get the user
<Riddell> not sure who the person for that would be, maybe the community team
<imbrandon> probably jono
<Lure> Riddell: lot's of local burning is going on, but that is not the same as ShipIT (pro done)
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: we plans to for kdeedu
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: but dolphin of kde 4 wouldn't integrate well into kde 3
<ardchoille> Let me get this straight.. d3lphin and dolphin are not the same thing?
<Jucato> ardchoille: no
<Lure> ardchoille: no
<ardchoille> Which one is going into Hardy?
<Jucato> d3lphin is the KDE3 fork of dolphin when Dolphin became KDE4 only
<Jucato> d3lphin
<nosrednaekim> ardchoille: same idea, but think of d3lphin as the "free trial version"...
<Jucato> (we just renamed it to dolphin)
<ardchoille> Ah, ok.
<ardchoille> Ah, I see it's symlinked in Gutsy
<Tonio_> there's one thing we should consider to make kubuntu more visible : stop release at the same date ubuntu does
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: please don't.
<Tonio_> that completly hides kubuntu, and sometimes obliges us to release with bugs that we should have fix in the first place
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: yeah, I know...... but forcing the release to sync with ubuntu causes problems that you can't ignore....
<Riddell> delaying release causes plenty of problems too
<Lure> Tonio_: true that, not sure how this impacts ShipIT though
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: how many times did we release with a critical bug, just because we had too ?
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: i suspect it's a choice to not put our stuff in with the ubuntu release notes, too
<Lure> Tonio_: but fixed schedule is great too
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: based on how many of htem are still critical, even now, a while after release...i'm not sure that's a valid argument
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: I don't say split with ubuntu, but releasing 2 weeks after ubuntu wouldn't cause that much a trouble, and make it more visible
<Lure> Hobbsee: +1
<apachelogger__> good morning
<Tonio_> although it would give us 2 weeks to focus on critical bugs, which would be important
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: from teh release POV, yes it would.
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: ubuntu releases depending on gnome cycle
<Riddell> releasing while UDS is on would be problematic
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: as we also do
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: should we depend on gnome release cycle ?
<allee>  Tonio_ yes
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: we should depend on ubuntu's, for various reasons you probably don't want to know about
<nosrednaekim> does KDE even have a steady release cycle?
<Hobbsee> nosrednaekim: no
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: I want to :)
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: just that this is somehow a handicap....
<Tonio_> I must say I said that to be provocating a bi
<Hobbsee> Tonio_:  not sorted by order of importance:  cd testing by the QA team, canonical staff's leave, dak import (aka, no security until everything is released), different freezes, non-kubuntu specific packages being changed later
<Hobbsee> UDS
<Hobbsee> bad publicity about "why didn't kubuntu release?  can they not get their act in gear?"
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: release parties that get thrown off
<Hobbsee> (as in, which release do you party for?)
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: pick your favorites out of the above
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: I know all of this
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: but that makes kubuntu invisible
<mhb> well, I think Tonio_ s point stems from the Canonical preference, too
 * Jucato thinks actually more people are asking "why do they need to follow Ubuntu's release" or "why did they release when it wasn't ready yet"..
<Tonio_> whatever you can say, this is the direct consequence.....
<allee> Tonio_: that's a marketing issue ;)
<mhb> they would delay Ubuntu if there was a serious bug, but they wont do such a thing for us
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: invisible?  no, but it doesn't market itslef much either.
<Tonio_> allee: of course, but how to consider a better marketing without making kubuntu more visible ?
<stdin> Jucato: they say that about gnome/ubuntu too, from what I've seen in #ubuntu
<mhb> we dont have control over the release cycle, which might be bothersome
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: have you already seen a news xsaying "New kubuntu on the way" ?
<Hobbsee> mhb: from a canonical POV, Riddell'sthe only one allocated to kubuntu.  if he doesn't fix it, then tough luck
<Tonio_> never happened
<mhb> because people who do have control over our release cycle dont care for us at all
<allee> Tonio_: seperate annoucements own new letter , ...
<Jucato> stdin: unfortunately, I don't keep track with Ubuntu :)
<Hobbsee> mhb: with 2 people on the release team, from kubuntu....
<Tonio_> you have "Ubuntu blabla released" with at the bottom a very little note saying "kubuntu released too..."
<Tonio_> I call that invisible
<stdin> Jucato: lucky you :p
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: that's somewhat of a choice to have separate release notes, though
<Jucato> stdin: by necessity :)
<Tonio_> allee: not enough imho
<mhb> Tonio_: we never get in their announcements, that is certain
<mhb> there is little we can do to promote Kubuntu in Canonicals announcements
<Jucato> btw, I mentioned to nixternal something about the release notes. I suggested that we include in our release notes some of the changes or new features that are common among all Ubuntu's. (perhaps separate them into sections too)
<apachelogger__> oh, wouldn't change much anyway
<Tonio_> Hobbsee, allee just to say that my only solution to that is canonical doing more for us, cause as Hobbsee said, we are super dependant on gnome, and ubuntu will always hide kubuntu
<allee> Tonio_: we own cananical nevertheless a lot, we use all their build structrues
<Riddell> anyone want to discuss with slangsek when he gets up what the alpha 1 announcement will say?
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: just an example : ALL the communication arround the french parliament is done with Ubuntu
<Hobbsee> mhb: hang around in #ubuntu-release aroudn release times - they ask for release notes proofeeading, etc.
<Hobbsee> the fact that no one does it doesn't mean it can't be done
<Lure> Tonio_: yes, ubuntu announcement should not be the only thing that is send out - we should send out our own
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: everyone is super surprised when I learn them that kubuntu, and not ubuntu, is used there
<mhb> Hobbsee: proofreading is not editing
<Tonio_> Lure: problem with naming, once again
<Hobbsee> mhb: sure, but you can edit too
<Tonio_> Lure: change distros names to Project : ubuntu, with "ubuntu gnome edition" and "ubuntu kde edition", and you win
<mhb> Hobbsee: they want free grammar checking, not a completely different release note
<apachelogger__> Lure: none would be interessed anyway
<Hobbsee> mhb: i suspect they're open to change.
<allee> Tonio_: +100
<Tonio_> Lure: that's the only thing that can bring sunshine to kde in the ubuntu world
<Tonio_> I'm done
<Hobbsee> mhb: no one came up to me asking to add kubuntu stuff when i was the RM either.  *shrug*
<Hobbsee> nor riddell
<Hobbsee> that was 2 tribes, /6
<Tonio_> cause we are technically linked to ubuntu, and hiden by the simple naming, which is the base of their marketing
<Tonio_> no other issue than making, with the name kde egla to gnome.....
<Tonio_> egal
<allee> Tonio_ and all other should we try to introduce and use 'ubuntu kde edition' code name kubuntu and the long form whenever possible?
<Tonio_> currently, simply because of the name, Ubuntu is the project AND the product
<jpatrick> btw, slangsek seems to be wake
<Tonio_> and kubuntu a derivative
<Riddell> we should stop using the word derivative
<Tonio_> sad but true
<stdin> Tonio_: so is ubuntu
<Lure> Riddell: but that is how we are considered, right?
<Tonio_> Riddell: we don't, people do, because the distro name introduces to that
<Riddell> Lure: maybe, but we're one variant of many
<Tonio_> Riddell: that's not my opinion, but discuss with people that are not expert with ubuntu
<Riddell> we're a derivative of debian, linspire is a derivative of us
<Lure> Riddell: there was recent discussion about xubunut
<apachelogger__> we are a variant of ubuntu, but also part of ubuntu
<Tonio_> what is kubuntu ? ubuntu with kde on it !
<Lure> Riddell: they have similar identity problems
<apachelogger__> explain that someone who doesn't know anything -.-
<Riddell> apachelogger__: ubuntu desktop is another variant
<Lure> are they officially supported by Ubuntu project or Canonical or nothing
<apachelogger__> but both are part of the ubuntu project
<Tonio_> and with ubuntu their consider ubuntu the distro, not ubuntu the project
<Tonio_> Riddell: sad to say it, but I understand that people still consider kubuntu that way
<apachelogger__> me too
<apachelogger__> explain it to someone who doesn't know anything is already quite hard
<Tonio_> Riddell: you talk about reallity, not about how people understand it
<apachelogger__> no idea how hard it must be to fully understand that
<allee> Well is we are variants.  the 'ubuntu kde edition' is much better naming and to the point.  It pronounces the common ground and lists the flavour explicitely
<Tonio_> Riddell: for most people, you have ubuntu, the one and only, the real distribution
<Tonio_> and several derivatives, as is kubuntu, as is xubuntu, as is edubuntu
<Tonio_> sad but true
<ardchoille> I consider Ubuntu and Kubuntu to be seperate distros, and that is how I explain it to people.
<Riddell> allee: that does sound like we're a derivative
<stdin> allee: the ubuntu should be called "ubuntu gnome edition" ?
<allee> Tonio_: we only need to hammer inot them that there are flavours/editons
<Tonio_> Riddell: not if gnome becomes : ubuntu gnome edition
<Riddell> nice but never going to happen
<allee> stdin: I hope that they are no other choice  as ubuntu gnome edition
<apachelogger__> allee: that is like a really bad name promotionwise
<Tonio_> Riddell: then people understand that ubuntu is a project, with several branches
<Lure> Riddell: I cannot agree - edition does not sound as derivative, but more like packaging
<Tonio_> I have to leave guys, sorry...
<Jucato> :(
<stdin> allee: it would be good if that was to happen, I just don't see it actually happening
<allee> apachelogger__: why?
<Tonio_> Jucato: I'll read everything, we can rediscuss this later ;)
<apachelogger__> allee: you have problems advertising the editions, because you would be forced to a have a base promotion for ubuntu
<imbrandon> ok Tonio_ / Riddell : dolphin uploaded with ark fix, i'll get with mhb tomarrow and see what we cant do about some of the other issues, but for now i must sleep
<apachelogger__> and really ubuntu kde edition is like an awul long name
<allee> stdin, apachelogger: IMHO 'ubuntu kde edition' is still easier to explain to out-siders than ubuntu/kubuntu diff
 * Jucato thinks it obvious from all these that we don't even agree amongst ourselves what Kubuntu really is...
<Lure> apachelogger__: +1, I also think kubuntu name hase its own value
<Lure> apachelogger__: we just need to start using it (i.e. own marketing)
<allee> kubuntu is the 'code name' ;)
<Riddell> time moves on
<Lure> Riddell: yep, I will have to run soon
<Riddell> we're unlikely to come to a conclusion on all of this, since that would be likely impossible
<Riddell> we should move to the next item
<nosrednaekim> I also think that the whole "kde edition" is superflous without the "gnome edition"
<Hobbsee> Jucato: so, just run ubuntu instead :P
 * Hobbsee ducks
 * Jucato quakcs
 * Jucato can't spell
<Lure> I think we should get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
<Riddell> Hobbsee: action it
<Jucato> coul we try to move on to the other items and come back to this if we have the time?
<Hobbsee> [action] get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
<MootBot> ACTION received:  get candidates for marketing team, talk with canonical regarding ShipIT for LoCo and fix the announcements of releases
<Riddell> Jucato has the next item
<Jucato> lots of items in https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals
<Jucato> but some, like D3lphin has been discussed already
<Jucato> just a follow up, what about Strigi?
<ardchoille> I don't think strigi was discussed
<Jucato> it was mentioned
<Jucato> but d3lphin took over )
<ardchoille> True
<Jucato> :)
<Riddell> strigi is default in KDE 4, we're the only people using it so far, I think that's really valuable to upstream
<Riddell> and it really shouldn't get in people's way since it's off by default and has to be turned explicity on
<Jucato> how about all the issues that users have been reporting? (eating CPU, batter, etc.)
<Riddell> but we need to patch it to nice the daemon (although ionice would be better)
 * dthacker notes that the US locos are looking at producing a run of CDs for non-approved teams. KDE could be done too, if enough CD's are ordered.
<Jucato> Riddell: I think I mentioned that it's the default action in Konqueror and in Find Files/Folder from the K Menu?
<dthacker> sorry, behind topic
<Lure> Jucato: that is the problem
<Jucato> so any mistyping in Konqueror's location field would fire up strigi (and all the other problems it brings)
<Lure> Riddell: this is even SRU candidate
<Riddell> Jucato: maybe we should change that back to google then
<Jucato> (btw, even now in KDE4, strigi managed to eat up 11GB of my disk space w/o me noticing it until too late...)
<Jucato> Riddell: wasn't it locate: before?
<Riddell> it was
<Jucato> anyway, that was just one of the things in my list. the other is about community involvement in development: recruitment, feedback, and specially testing.
<Lure> Riddell: should we extend Default Applications with file manager (dolphin/konqueror) and search (strigi/locate) functionality?
<allee> The 100% and too big index probs have to be known already to upstream.   What's their position?
<Riddell> Lure: could do
<Riddell> allee: it's on their todo but not priority
<allee> Riddell: even with KDE4 almost ready for release?  Strange :(
<apachelogger__> well, it will be once kde4 is out
<Riddell> unfortunately jos couldn't come to UDS to discuss this
<Jucato> and I'm imagining the KDE4 version will get fixed first before KDE3's?
<apachelogger__> unless upstream likes bug report flood ;-)
<Riddell> Jucato: it's all the same
<Jucato> ah
 * Lure has to run -> will read scrollback tonight
<Jucato> hehe we're dropping like flies :)
<Riddell> we are indeed
<Riddell> Jucato: any proposals on how to get more community involvement?
<Hobbsee> whip.
<Jucato> ok,just very specific questions: where do we field ubuntu+1 testers and questions, is #ubuntu+1 a good place for Kubuntu users? 2) Could we update our Get Involved page with more specific junior jobs and contact persons per job? so that it would be easier for interested persons to join in?
<Hobbsee> i think #ubuntu+1 is a good place, although i do have #kubuntu+1 registered to me
<Hobbsee> it's still fairly quiet, and a lot is distro-agnostic
<Riddell> actually #kubuntu-devel should be fine too
<Jucato> Riddell: my idea is to make it very easy for interested people to start contributing, usually by providing names and places to go to.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: id' prefer not to dump user support in there.
<Riddell> so long as it doesn't get too busy
<Hobbsee> Riddell: log reading, and such.
<nosrednaekim> I don't think we should have a separate ubuntu+1, most things on it are very non-DE dependant.
<nosrednaekim> and there are ussually some kubuntu people in there.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: we need to be able to get stuff done (tm) in there, not be stuck answering support queries in the middle of discussions about where kubuntu, etc, is going
<Jucato> I'm also thinking of a place for testing other stuff, like packages, features, etc. mhb: how is kubuntu-testers?
<Hobbsee> Jucato: alive, but very quiet
<Jucato> hm...
<stdin> at early stages #ubuntu+1 is fine for both. it's only near release that you need to ask "ubuntu or kubuntu?"
<Riddell> using #kubuntu-testers more would be good I think
<Jucato> if we could have a more concrete list of stuff to do, like an updated https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu, I could probably try to write up something on the planet and in the forums
<Jucato> a sort of campaign hammering for help :)
<Riddell> to do lists get out of date quickly is the problem there
<apachelogger__> not with a maintainer
<dthacker> I can shake the loCo tree a bit for help.
 * apachelogger__ just wishes there was a good floss for that kind of stuff
<Jucato> I think having a contact person per item is also very important. there have been times when someone comes into -devel asking how he can help and where and who to talk to
<Riddell> apachelogger__: are you volunteering? :)
 * allee has to leave.
<ardchoille> Is the meeting considered over?
<Jucato> ardchoille: not yet :)
<Hobbsee> Jucato: +1
<ardchoille> okie
<apachelogger__> Riddell: nah, I already maintains amaroks todo :P
<Hobbsee> we need to find another one
<Jucato> trying to fast pace my topic (it's quite long :P)
<ardchoille> hehe
<Jucato> anyway, as far as kubuntuforums is concerned, I proposed some structural changes there to make it easier for developers to take a peek at what's happening, major issues/bugs, and feedbacks. I'm thinking it could be turned into a sort of seedbed for future contributors/developers
<Jucato> still waiting for that to be implemented though :)
<Jucato> Riddell: WinFOSS apps, we can't do anything about them? are we going to be able to fit KDE4 apps in Hardy despite that?
<Jucato> (after this, I'm done. :P)
<Riddell> Jucato: we're not having kde 4 apps on the same cd
<Riddell> we'll have a kde 4 cd with luck
<Riddell> and edubuntu should have kdeedu-kde4
<Jucato> ah I thought kdeedu4 would be in hardy by default
<Jucato> ok :)
<Riddell> sure, but not on our cd
<Jucato> ooooh ok :)
<apachelogger__> well, we could drop ooo and put kdeedu4 in ;-)
<Jucato> well I'm done. there were other items, but can be for next time :)
<jpatrick> apachelogger__: put koffice2 would be better ;)
<Riddell> last item on the agenda is "Kubuntu Packaing Day"
<apachelogger__> jpatrick: I really think both would fit in the place ooo is requiring
<Riddell> jono and the community team convinced me to have a packaging day with a few talks on how to get involved in kubuntu
<jpatrick> Riddell: we're all ears :)
<kwwii> Riddell: erm, the wallpaper issue?
<Riddell> kwwii: still waiting on ruphy
<apachelogger__> -.-
<Riddell> Thu Dec 13th is penciled in as the day
<Riddell> from 15UTC to 19UTC
<kwwii> Riddell: hrm, ok
 * apachelogger__ open his calendar
<Riddell> so we need ideas for 4 talks
<Riddell> packging 101 is in there
<Riddell> its actually in there twice currently
<apachelogger__> Oo
<apachelogger__> bug triaging, translations, loco work
<imbrandon> kde bug triageing ?
<Riddell> nice ideas
<Jucato> ooh triaging!
<ardchoille> Riddell: I'd love to attend a class (#kubuntu-classroom ?) about packaging for Kubuntu. From the docs I read, there are about 100 ways to do it and the tuts are confusing.
<apachelogger__> Riddell: also, maybe sebas could talk about how to contribute to kde?
<imbrandon> ardchoille: thats because there are about 100 ways to do it :)
<Riddell> plan is to have this in #kubuntu-devel actually
<apachelogger__> contributing to upsteam is as important
<Riddell> to bring people into the channel
<ardchoille> imbrandon: lol
<stdin> maybe a "how to work with cmake" too (cmake is only just about starting to begin to make sense to me)
 * dthacker hums  there must be 100 ways to build a package...
<imbrandon> 1003
<imbrandon> :)
<Riddell> pyqt4 programming too maybe
<ardchoille> But which is the right/accepted way for the package to get into the repos?
<Riddell> ardchoille: wait for the packaging day and find out :)
 * ardchoille needs a packaging class
<imbrandon> ardchoille: any of the 100 that meets quality standrs in the end
<apachelogger__> Riddell: would mean to talk about cute as well
<ardchoille> Riddell: That's a class I'll be attending
<apachelogger__> Riddell: and I'm not sure whether everyone can follow in that short time
<Riddell> I've done pyqt4 tutorials in an hour
<apachelogger__> ok :)
<Riddell> you can pick the basics up easily if you know a bit about OO programming in general
<Riddell> apachelogger, imbrandon: so fancy doing talks on kde bug triaging, translations, loco work?
 * nosrednaekim wonders on the state of pykde4
<dthacker> what do you need to cover on loco work?
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: not yet packaged
<Jucato> nosrednaekim: pretty much doing well I've heard
<nosrednaekim> I like the pyqt4 tutorial BTW, you might get some people from other distros with that.
<Jucato> (but not packaged it seems :P)
<Riddell> dthacker: I don't know, that's why I want a talk on it to find out :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: txwikinger is a master bug triager, maybe he'd like to talk about that
<apachelogger> txwikinger: pling
<txwikinger> how do you now I am watching apachelogger?
<imbrandon> pling related to bling ? like ping only better ? hehe
<ardchoille> lol
<dthacker> Organizing a loco?  Are there separate kubuntu locos?
<apachelogger> imbrandon: yups :D
<apachelogger> dthacker: well, only one I think, not even official though
<apachelogger> kubuntu-de.org
<txwikinger> dthacker: inofficial ones yes
<apachelogger> txwikinger: so, are you willing to talk about bug triaging?
<txwikinger> well.. I am not sure what really the difference to bug triage in general is
<dthacker> can we get nixternal to talk about docs?
<Riddell> txwikinger: not much, just talk about amarok bugs rather than rhythmbox bugs
<apachelogger> ^_^
<txwikinger> ah ok :)
<Riddell> it doesn't need to be a full hour if it's not an hour long topic
<dthacker> amarok has bugs?  I'm shocked :)
<txwikinger> well if y'all want me to do it, I guess I can talk a little about triage
<apachelogger> dthacker: nah, just wishes, the actual bugs are mostly packaging issue :P
<imbrandon> Riddell: also might want to note the MOTU school is back and i planed on contacting them to do some Kubuntu pimpage + recruiting
<Riddell> ok, I think we have some good ideas here, I'll munge it into a timetable for the day and see if it makes sense
<Riddell> Hobbsee: still awake to action that?
 * Hobbsee looks for which bit to action
<Hobbsee> [action] KDE bug triage sessions to start, and packaging sessions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  KDE bug triage sessions to start, and packaging sessions
<Riddell> Hobbsee: me munge it into a timetable for the day
<Hobbsee> [action] Riddell to make a timetable for the KDE bug and packaging day
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to make a timetable for the KDE bug and packaging day
<steveire> Did I just miss all the interesting bits?
<apachelogger> yes :P
<steveire> Ah well...
<Riddell> any other business?
<nosrednaekim> was the wallpaper discussed already?
<Hobbsee> no
<nosrednaekim> and the theme?
<Hobbsee> [topic] wallpaper and theme
<MootBot> New Topic:  wallpaper and theme
<dthacker> Jucato, ardchoille, still need to meet in #ubuntu-devel?
<nosrednaekim> kde-look has some nice kubuntu wallpapers.
<ardchoille> dthacker: I'm in #kubuntu-devel
<Riddell> I don't have anything to discuss there, I'm waiting on ruphy from oxygen to get us the spare ones from the oxygen background contest
<dthacker> kubuntu-devel, that is.  coffee needed.  brb
<Jucato> dthacker, ardchoille: I'll join a bit later. need to be somewhere after the meeting
<kwwii> on this topic
 * allee is back
<kwwii> we have an art team meeting tonight at 19:00 UTC
<kwwii> one of the issues is variant artwork
<kwwii> so please, anyone who is interested in kubuntu artwork try to attend
 * apachelogger notes the next meeting
<dthacker> Jucato: ping me, I'll me monitoring
<ardchoille> apachelogger: You can put the meeting events calendar into korganizer :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: so, I think we have nothing to discuss, we can as well end the meeting
<apachelogger> ardchoille: I don't use korganizer :P
<apachelogger> <-- webapp guy
<ardchoille> Ah, does it accept ical ?
<Jucato> Google Calendar :)
<Riddell> thanks all
<nosrednaekim> thank you!
<Riddell> next meeting a week on wednesday at 23UTC
<nosrednaekim> now there is a better time!
<nosrednaekim> :D
<claydoh> +1
<claydoh> :)
<Jucato> oooh 7am my time the next day :)
<txwikinger> 12 Dec?
<Riddell> txwikinger: yes
<txwikinger> thanks
<Riddell> and hopefully it won't be as long as this one
<ardchoille> The community is one of the things that make this a great distro, and this community rocks!
<ardchoille> Thanks all.
<dthacker> later
<Jucato> :)
<Jucato> laterz
<Hobbsee> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:19.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Dec 19:00 UTC: Art Team | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<kraut> moin
<Hattory> @now rome
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Rome: December 01 2007, 18:28:24 - Next meeting: Art Team in 1 hour 31 minutes
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<risto> @now estonia
<risto> @now tallinn
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Tallinn: December 01 2007, 20:54:46 - Current meeting: Art Team
<kwwii> about 5 min
<kwwii> ok, test, test...1,2-1,2...can everyone hear me?
<Ken> I can't hear you! (I can read you though)
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> who all is here for the artwork meeting? say hi
<Gunirus> profoX`: ping :p
<andreasn> hi
<thorwil> hi
<nothlit> hi
<profoX`> hi Gunirus
<kwwii> ok, let's give 3 more minutes for any late joiners...agreed?
<deezid_> ok
<Ken> Sounds good
<thorwil> do you expect students? ;)
<kwwii> I am just hoping that lots of people show up ;-)
<lapo> hi
<deezid_> maybe a music student :)
<kwwii> that would be nice too
<deezid_> can ask him if you like :)
 * _MMA_ lurks.
<kwwii> you lurker, you
<kwwii> ok let's get going
<kwwii> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:05. The chair is kwwii.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kwwii> starting with the first topic....
<kwwii> #TOPIC art.ubuntu.com
<kwwii> erm
<andreasn> did it work?
<kwwii> so here we go again with my lacking knowledge
<kwwii> no
<andreasn> perhaps without the #?
<Ken> is it with the []'s?
<kwwii> TOPIC art.ubuntu.com
<andreasn> or "/TOPIC" ?
<kwwii> right
<nothlit> no definitely not the slash
<Ken> What's th elvish word for topic?
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: art.ubuntu.com
<thorwil> or with @ or !
<kwwii> lol
<andreasn> whups, that changed the whole topic
<andreasn> crap
<kwwii> art.ubuntu.com is basically finished
<kwwii> lol
<deezid_> this site is down?
<Ken> sorry. back onto [TOPIC]
<kwwii> oh shit
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<thorwil> deezid_: not up, i guess
<deezid_> ok
<kwwii> [TOPIC] art.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> New Topic:  art.ubuntu.com
<andreasn> sweet
<kwwii> yipee
<andreasn> :)
<kwwii> so, art.ubuntu.com is basically finished and is waiting for code review
<kwwii> what we need to find now is a couple of people interested in maintaing things
<andreasn> any rough time estimation when it could be up?
<kwwii> and communicating ideas across the mailing list, forums, etc
<kwwii> andreasn: if it is not through code review in a week or so I will see about speeding up the process
<andreasn> kwwii: sounds great
<deezid_> :)
<kwwii> so nothlit, feel like helping out on that?
<kwwii> ;-)
<nothlit> sure
<kwwii> cool, anyone else can send me an email or we can discuss it in chat
<kwwii> [ENDTOPIC]
<kwwii> erm
<troy_s> The bloody atrocity that is known as art.ubuntu.com will require someone with supreme dedication and time.  Forums might be a better starting point.
<andreasn> perhaps we can mention we're looking for people who's interesting in that task on the mailing list?
<Ken> generally speaking, I can help out, but only until mid-January.
<Ken> (if you need to stall for someone who can really invest all-out time
<kwwii> andreasn: good idea, once I know a general time frame I'll post to the list
<andreasn> good
<kwwii> Ken: sounds good
<kwwii> #endtopic
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> [/TOPIC]
<kwwii> oh great, this is going to take forever
<thorwil> kwwii: maybe there's no end, only starting the next?
<Gunirus> kwwii: rtfm ?
<andreasn> maybe if you just do a new "[TOPIC] ..."
<troy_s> bugger the uber geektools.
<Ken> Need another lord of the rings reference?
<kwwii> [TOPIC] spreading information about the art direction, etc
<MootBot> New Topic:  spreading information about the art direction, etc
<Ken> Shiny.
<kwwii> right, on this one, everyone should know that the wiki is the final place for information and the mailing list the almost nearly so
<deezid_> complimentary colours :)
<kwwii> but we need to communicate the information that will go out in the wiki in the forum and art.ubuntu.com
<Ken> Yeah, I've tried to get info on what was already decided on the Art direction, and had to hit the mailing list.
<kwwii> so, if anyone ask we all need to point them to the same place
<kwwii> Ken: until now we are still awaiting final decisions on the art direction, that will be finished sometime late next week or so
<kwwii> so there should be something online within a week or more
<Ken> Is there a section with progress information?
<nothlit> if anyone wants has information they had trouble finding feel free to suggest it so we can put it in the faq (if you want to do it yourself thats fine too :)
<kwwii> if anyone is active in the forum, please spread this information
<kwwii> nothlit: excellent point
<Ken> Yeah, a mention in the FAQ would be perfect.
<kwwii> Ken: not yet, it all basically says a bit of general background stuff and please wait
<kwwii> we have been discussing lots of different ideas (mainly on the mailing list and wiki)
<kwwii> from all of this we are forming the art direction information and once it is out we can move forward
<Ken> Yeah, I read up on the mailing list. Nothing seems concrete, but a mention where the ideas are being discussed would be good.
<kwwii> ok, I guess we nailed that one as well
<kwwii> Ken: right, I'll add something to the wiki
<andreasn> just a final question, the wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork, right?
<andreasn> (that we point people to)
<kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii adds information about the art direction decision process
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii adds information about the art direction decision process
<kwwii> andreasn: yes
<andreasn> ok, just checking to be sure
<kwwii> there is a link to hardy artwork there as well
<kwwii> basically, all the really neat artsy stuff is in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming
<Ken> it's fairly easy to find if you know where you want to go. :)
<kwwii> yeah, pretty much
<kwwii> ok, next topic
<Ken> I even tossed a page in there, mwaha
<Ken> anyway...
<kwwii> [TOPIC] flickr
<MootBot> New Topic:  flickr
<kwwii> in order to get more contributions from existing channels, we discussed setting up a flickr group and make some tags so that people can discuss and contribute on flickr as well
<kwwii> soooo...I created a group called "ubuntu-artwork"
<kwwii> join up, help out
<andreasn> url?
<kwwii> http://flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/
<kwwii> I think that you might get more than you'd think through flickr, we shall see
<kwwii> anyone have any experience with flickr?
<kwwii> anyone want to help with this?
<Ken> This is all for incoming concept art I assume
<kwwii> right
<Ken> Honestly, I just googled flickr.
<andreasn> joined, I can keep a eye on it
<thorwil> my only experience is with browsing/searchging :)
<deezid_> me too
<Ken> Is there a way to divide flickr into sections like "desktops", "GTK ideas" etc?
<andreasn> there are tags
<kwwii> Ken that is exactly what I would like help with :-)
<Ken> I see, so it's more like Gmail in the way that you just tag everything.
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> so we would need to figure that out in advance
<troy_s> kwwii: Any chance of discussing actual hard elements regarding the work at some point?
<kwwii> if anyone has any experience or ideas or just wants to help me mess up, email me :-)
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, we were going to talk a bit about icons later
<troy_s> kwwii: Great.  I would like to see if the folks can actually develop a 'style' out of the requirements:  glossless, etc.
<kwwii> right, we'll get to that after one more topic
<deezid_> no gloss? :D
<Ken> I'd like to help out with that, if possible. I'll wait until were in the irght topic
<deezid_> ok
<kwwii> [TOPIC] bug hunting
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug hunting
<kwwii> ok, as always there are a bunch of "artwork" bugs  - I encourage everyone to help in triaging the bugs so figure out which ones are even really "artwork" bugs
<kwwii> anyone have any ideas on how we could encourage more people to help?
<Ken> Rendering errors or stylistic errors?
<Ken> n/m
<kwwii> the first step is to figure out what is exactly wrong, be it artwork or code
<kwwii> so you do not have to be a genius or a great artist to help
<andreasn> one thing we could do to make people hunt bugs harder is to report the bugs we have looked into ourselves
<Ken> Do we have a page where users can go to report bugs?
<troy_s> kwwii: I would say that a good degree of 'helping' is problematic on that front as you 'help' then the bikeshed of revisioning starts up.
<andreasn> it's pretty easy to find artwork bugs just by searching
<kwwii> andreasn: right, good idea...if anyone submits something to a package they should be associated with the art bugs that come with it for a couple of weeks at least
<deezid_> maybe open a thread at ubuntu-forums dev-link forum?
<kwwii> troy_s: ?
<kwwii> deezid_: yeah, if only I was a forum user :-)
<troy_s> kwwii: Maybe a page on the wiki is relevant.  Find the bug, push a bzr fix, attach comment with bzr branch link type of setup.
<deezid_> there are many users using hardy already
<Ken> A database maby?
<troy_s> kwwii: Well for example, everything from creating an icon for a project (was filed as a bug) to 'fixing' bugs in windeco.
<deezid_> mhh
<troy_s> kwwii: It opens up a gongshow of bikeshed with the very real fact that aesthetics are being impacted.
<kwwii> troy_s: it is not just about fixing them (although that is also nice) it is also about knowing which bugs are real and which are even our problem
<kwwii> troy_s: i would exclude aesthetics from this entirely
<andreasn> a lot of bugs are just like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/149380
<kwwii> if something is the wrong size, or does not exist, or whatever
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 149380 in update-notifier "blurry reboot / restart icon" [Low,New]
<troy_s> kwwii: Triaging then.
<kwwii> right
<troy_s> kwwii: Seems like the bug hunters 'bug day' work well.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, perhaps we should have a bug day
<andreasn> troy_s: is that just a day were you hunt down and fix bugs?
<troy_s> andreasn: But for most of those bugs we are aware that it is an incorrect or missing symlink to the SVG -- you are the expert on that naming spec etc.
<luisbg> don't you guys need to define what a art bug is?
<troy_s> andreasn: At least hunt them down and line them up
<andreasn> ok, so we should encourage people of the art team to be part of those bug days. Sounds great
<kwwii> Ken: we have https://bugs.launchpad.net/ , in case you haven't seen it
<Ken> Why not create a dedicated page, not a wiki but an actual art-bug database. Users specify what type of bug it is and it gets files appropriatly
<Ken> n/m, thanks Kwwii
<troy_s> Ken: It exists.
<nothlit> well, anyone part of the team already gets the bugs
<troy_s> Again, more information issues -- the lack of Launchpad knowledge hurts us.
<Ken> Still new here/Idiotic
<andreasn> kwwii: I know you can cc a person on a bug, can you cc a whole team?
<kwwii> Ken: no worries
<nothlit> so all we have to do is encourage them to look at them and let them know they are allowed and should do something about it if possible
<kwwii> andreasn: indeed
<Ken> Could we post a link in an about menu (in the OS itself)?
<Ken> "If you find the program looks invcorrect, go to..."
<troy_s> andreasn: You can subscribe an art team as teams and people are the same I believe.
<kwwii> Ken: traching aesthetical issues as bugs is really hard as it is not a ovting mechanism
<kwwii> s/traching/tracking
<Ken> true.
<troy_s> andreasn: So theoretically it is the same, although I haven't done it.  Perhaps kwwii should register a bug "Art team doesn't fix bugs" lol.
<Ken> Yeek, I could see the blogospere having fun with that, Mwaha
<kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii to send email to list about but hunting with a bit more information
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii to send email to list about but hunting with a bit more information
<kwwii> man, glad we had this meeting, I am getting all the work
<luisbg> kwwii, lol
<andreasn> hm, perhaps "Also affects project" under Actions?
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> kwwii: Unfortunately you are the 'guy'.
<kwwii> ok, final topic
<kwwii> [TOPIC] icons, what d'ya want to see?
<luisbg> kwwii, needs to delegate
<MootBot> New Topic:  icons, what d'ya want to see?
<luisbg> kwwii needs people to delegate to
<Ken> we should just make forms for kwwii to fill out. He should actually make the forms too.
<deezid_> less orange
<kwwii> hehe, no doubt
<kwwii> deezid_: less orange, how do you mean exactly?
<Ken> gloss, diagonal lines and blatant use of transparencies.
<thorwil> and glow
<andreasn> kwwii: regarding community artwork or personal wishes about the main stuff?
<Ken> thorwil: Don't forget reflections
<troy_s> kwwii: What are we chasing?
<luisbg> less glow (color palette is ok now)
<luisbg> gloss/glow
<deezid_> mhh, don't want to get rid of orange
<kwwii> andreasn: we are discussing what we would like to see in hardy
<Ken> I think we should add colour to the panels; They look somewhat stale as they are now.
<troy_s> These were probably the most elegant looking folders I found out in the wild, but they chase the term 'elegant' and apparently ours is 'clunky'.  http://kde-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=38254&file1=38254-1.png&file2=&file3=&name=Some+more+SVG+Icons
<thorwil> troy_s: i suppose ubuntu is chasing its own tail
<deezid_> maybe black gloss? :D lol
<deezid_> wow
<troy_s> thorwil: Lol.  yes.
<kwwii> but let's keep it to icons
<kwwii> troy_s: indeed, you showed me that (and I stole the idea)
<troy_s> kwwii: Another half of the icon question, are we chasing Tango outlines?
<kwwii> troy_s: I think that no matter what we still have to look presentable next to the gnome icons (tango style)
<Ken> I think tango outlines are a good idea just as they increase visibility.'
<deezid_> http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/174/8/c/Noiro_Icons_by_Bobbyperux.jpg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs17/i/2007/174/8/c/Noiro_Icons_by_Bobbyperux.jpg
<kwwii> as I doubt we will ever replace them all
<troy_s> kwwii: Etc.  That is a rather critical element as I honestly have yet to see a Tango icon that looks elegant and has a craftsman-like detail level.
<deezid_> i like those icons
<deezid_> :)
<andreasn> troy_s: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jakubsteiner/2075422487/
<troy_s> kwwii: Well that is unfortnate.
<kwwii> yeah, we might need to tweak things here and there
<Ken> We should avoid ultra-realistic I think, just as that's the latest "thing"
<troy_s> andreasn: More of the duplication of an imitation.
<Ken> It will be next years gloss.
<kwwii> I think that we will move away from gloss in any case
<Ken> I'm thinking a Dilbert theme.
<troy_s> andreasn: Leopard's abandoning of their default folder icon in the name of watermarking was a bit of a regression.
<Ken> Maybe I should contribute more and cut down on jokes now.
<luisbg> Ken, you want to avoid stuff because it's the latest "thing"
<luisbg> I don't like being contratrends just to be contratrends
<troy_s> andreasn: And the only thing that elevates that icon is the fact that the scale reduces the outline stroke -- which is exactly my point.  Outlines are clunk.
<Ken> luisbg: Exactly what I meant
<luisbg> I believe tango works, it should be tweaked but not replaced
<deezid_> i like the industrial refresh more
<deezid_> :)
<thorwil> troy_s: i think outlines can help to make icons work on varying backgrounds
<Ken> thorwil: I agree
<kwwii> I am not a fan of the outlines either although at small sizes you almost cannot live without it
<deezid_> no outlines please
<troy_s> thorwil: The question is -- is it relevant.  Different background means that quest for the Platonic 'ultimate icon' -- the quest of pure folly.
<andreasn> I personally think we should try to work close to upstream as that's were a _lot_ of work is going on there and the coverage is pretty good
<kwwii> andreasn: agreed
<kwwii> we
<kwwii> erm
<troy_s> andreasn: Then our aesthetic is once again dictated by upstream and that is a bastion of questionable source.
<kwwii> we'll be nice and feed you cake
<troy_s> anyways, I have said my piece.  -1 on the outlines and Tango clunk aesthetic.
<kwwii> I think that we can pull off our own stuff while still being somewhat inline with upstream
<Ken> The problem is that the most usable interface is the ugliest.
<kwwii> and it might just solve some of our problems by doing so
<Ken> The more pretty you go, the less usable it is.
<andreasn> troy_s: well, we could try to replace everything, but I need to see a alternative with good coverage of the applications we ship by default
<luisbg> Ken, I don't agree
<Ken> Outlines look bad, but they do help.
<thorwil> Ken: never. emotions impact performance ...
<troy_s> andreasn: I am not of the mind that we need to change _everything_.  Get a decent level of penetration to sell the aesthetic decisions.
 * _MMA_ reminds kwwii about the "What release are we working toward?" question.
<troy_s> andreasn: The quest for 'finished design' is weighed out with the very real fact that design will _never_ be finished.
<thorwil> there are levels between a clear outline and no outline at all
<andreasn> another thing to weight in is that 3rd party apps like mozilla certanly wants a less movable targets on linux platforms
<kwwii> _MMA_: ouch forgot the derivative stuff
<troy_s> thorwil: Outlines are all about contrast, and there are so many factors in contrast that it becomes extremely complicated.  In the end, either you try for the "It works in all environments" or you don't worry about it and worry more about a singular aesthetic vision.
<kwwii> yeah, one good question is the exact timing of the themeing cycles for hardy
<troy_s> andreasn:  Sure.  That said, their icons are pretty top shelf and they don't fit in with Tango at all.
<_MMA_> kwwii: And what should ultimately be targeted for +1.
<troy_s> kwwii: I think this discussion heads down the road of 'territory that is Marks'
<andreasn> troy_s: actually they are doing tango/gnome integration for firefox3
<kwwii> on one hand we can say that hardy is an LTS release and therefor the first of the new breed or we say that Hardy is the last of the old cycle
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, definitely
<troy_s> andreasn: Unfortunate, their icons are beautiful as is for Firefox and Thunderbird.
<kwwii> I think that we will see that hardy is the last of the old, but do not "mark" my words
<andreasn> anyway, any good ideas for icons we want to ship that's not the default? any good community candidates?
<Ken> What about going with 2 different icon schemes? One for general purpose and one for OS-usage? Similar to the idea of the glossless icons for panels and such?
<deezid_> I think hardy should receive a new design as dapper did before
<troy_s> kwwii: It just is going to provoke bike shedding and the very real fact that without key terms and such to work towards, we are going to be hooped.  We can at _least_ evaluate the work against the goal then.
<andreasn> I would like to package stripy-icon-theme
<kwwii> troy_s: right, this conversation is just supposed to spur ideas, not work towards anything
<troy_s> andreasn: Do you have any links to legacy themes that work?
<kwwii> andreasn: stripy?
<nothlit> Ken: two default icon themes is ridiculous, you choose a sane default and people can customise at will
<andreasn> http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/stripy-icon-theme-0.2.tar.bz2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/tmp/stripy-icon-theme-0.2.tar.bz2
<andreasn> http://bp1.blogger.com/_2o81e3u4ZFU/Rj_ASHcA0GI/AAAAAAAAACA/BHzbrqrpNh8/s1600-h/Schermata.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bp1.blogger.com/_2o81e3u4ZFU/Rj_ASHcA0GI/AAAAAAAAACA/BHzbrqrpNh8/s1600-h/Schermata.png
<troy_s> Ken: Not to mention the amount of work.
<kwwii> Ken: we do include several themes, perhaps we can include more or change the set we include
<kwwii> oh wow
<troy_s> LOL
<andreasn> (this would be universe stuff though, it's just so I can learn packaging really :) )
<deezid_> OMG
<luisbg> that looks like paul smith LOL
<kwwii> andreasn: I hope they remeber you by that
<thorwil> strpey sure keeps the orange
<andreasn> lapo usually advice people not to use those
<troy_s> Ok just so we keep some vision, here are the two big boys...
<troy_s> http://www.rw-designer.com/res/vista-folder-32.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.rw-designer.com/res/vista-folder-32.png
<troy_s> that's vista
<troy_s> http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7207/picture1vn2.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7207/picture1vn2.png
<troy_s> there is leopard.
<troy_s> leopard very clearly made a move away from their other icon in the name of watermarking.
<kwwii> well, I do not like the thing on it's side and the leopard ones look freaky to me
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> kwwii: I agree...
<nothlit> leopard visually changed a lot of things for the sake of change unfortunately
<deezid_> KDE4's folder icons look somehow similar to Leopards'
<kwwii> lol, yeah, they have been stealing from us oxygen guys
<troy_s> nothlit: I disagree -- they have tried to add value -- the watermarking for example so you can 'see' your folder stuff.
<deezid_> nope
<andreasn> kwwii: such ripoffs :)
<deezid_> the other way
<deezid_> ^^
<troy_s> lol
<deezid_> lol
<luisbg> heh
<kwwii> the water-marking itself is kinda neat
<andreasn> so, these watermarks, does they work well in finder etc?
<thorwil> but requires large size
<troy_s> kwwii: Plus one, minus six on the garbage frontal folder look though.
<Ken> We should probably have the folders open to the left...
<kwwii> but the way they changed a couple of icons so that they no longer fit with the whole is nasty
<troy_s> andreasn: I don't think they care.
<andreasn> or does it only work in coverflow?
<troy_s> kwwii: the 'whole' is on the move
<thorwil> http://www.indiehig.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/shape.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.indiehig.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/shape.png
<troy_s> kwwii: ever changing -- it is a bridging release for certain.
<Ken> Why would we watermark folders though? We have emblems.
<kwwii> yeah
<deezid_> yupp
<kwwii> we could change the emblem stuff to that pretty easy; I would guess
<kwwii> but it would make it hard to have more than one
<troy_s> Ken: I posted those two links to illustrate the direction of the two main players.  Not question the watermark etc discussion -- it isn't relevant to us.
<luisbg> yeap
<troy_s> kwwii: Emblems-- on that note,
<nothlit> troy_s: the dock, folder icons etc have been illustrated to detract from usability/visibility, break logic and visual completeness from what i've seen of critical reception
<nothlit> troy_s: i have no direct experience with it though
<troy_s> kwwii: IF we get in the lovely monochromatic glyphs for the systray etc (as per you and andreasn 's samples) perhaps we need to consider similar etching on the emblems?
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was wondering how well that would work
<kwwii> perhaps we could color code them a bit
<Ken> troy_s: That would bring amazing continuity
<troy_s> nothlit: Bridging release.  The entire move is jettisonning the now decrepit glossy shiny bits and moving towards... well paper to start :)
<troy_s> andreasn: Is there any upstream work to have action / colour association in place?
<kwwii> as time is running out, let's hit the last topic and be off for tonight
<troy_s> kwwii:  Unfortunately, it is at least on the map as the overall presentation is going to be impacted by those emblems.
<kwwii> we can discuss this more in a bit or in another channel, ok?
<andreasn> troy_s: well, we are trying to use distinct colors on the emblems. There have been discussions about ditching the emblem system and use more regular tags instead
<troy_s> andreasn: Wow.  Tags that have associated images?  That is damn innovative!
<Ken> I like emblems, they work well for all I can see.
<Ken> lol
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, a lot hands on that...I should probably get some stuff together about the emblem ide
<kwwii> ok, last topic
<andreasn> troy_s: no, more like no images, just text-tags, nothing concrete at all really though
<kwwii> [TOPIC] Variant Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Variant Artwork
<nothlit> yeah but things like the loss of silhouette, color coding, the extremely bright but indescernible dock light, significantly impact the interaction, not to mention doubled shadows with incorrect angles for flash's sake etc
<kwwii> we need to keep the communication up about the other variants which need help
<luisbg> more communication is key
<kwwii> with most of them you are free to play a lot more than you can with the ubuntu work
<troy_s> kwwii: Lol.
<kwwii> _MMA_ would like all the help he can get with ubuntu-studio
<kwwii> and I would love to see more people step up and help kubuntu
<andreasn> so, have there any of interest in kubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntustudio etc from newcomers?
 * _MMA_ whistles.
<nothlit> i think its only the official derivatives that lack contribution funnily enough
<kwwii> andreasn: yes, to an extent
 * luisbg looks at _MMA_ 
<kwwii> nothlit: yeah, pretty much
<luisbg> nothlit, maybe derivatives don't need contribution
<troy_s> andreasn: I think the interest is met with the very real fact that every single distribution has 'ideas' as to what is "Right(TM)"
<Ken> Kubuntu, maby. Just because KDE programs are present on Ubuntu.
<luisbg> troy_s, yes but all distros should work together
<andreasn> troy_s: how do you mean?
<luisbg> maybe we have different color palletes but we share some ideas
<luisbg> and we can take benefit from each other's work
<_MMA_> +1
<kwwii> a lot of the work could be done together while still achieving different goals
<troy_s> andreasn: Creatively, it is a stifling environment and no one with ability will engage that climate.
<_MMA_> (where the style fits of coarse)
<_MMA_> *course
<kwwii> working together on easing the themeing and sharing information is in any case a good idea
<troy_s> andreasn: Not to mention the learning pains that Ubuntu is having with the collision between 'the way we do things' with the 'way things might want to be considered'.
<kwwii> maybe we shoud have progress reports from each variant on a schedule
<kwwii> including ubuntu
<luisbg> kwwii, +1
<kwwii> so we know where we stand at any given time
<luisbg> and a list of tasks pending too
<andreasn> kwwii: sounds like a good idea, more concrete on "where we are"
<kwwii> andreasn: exactly
 * _MMA_ cringes at the thought of more "reports".
<thorwil> "progress or progress reports. choose one" :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: +1
<Ken> We can have kwwii fill out the reports, he's doing everything else
<_MMA_> lol
<kwwii> I think that at least on a monthly basis it would not be too much work
<kwwii> I can collect the info and send the email, wiki page, etc
<andreasn> perhaps in connection with the monthly art meetings
<_MMA_> kwwii: Well isnt that covered in that new "Teams Report" thing that just happened?
<luisbg> wiki based stuff is good, updated every now and then is simple and effective
 * _MMA_ digs for a link.
<kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii to look into better monthly reporting from various art teams
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii to look into better monthly reporting from various art teams
 * luisbg wait for _MMA_ as he does bring a good point
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, but this would just be about artwork
<luisbg> those team reports can be used for both
<kwwii> so it would help me fill out that page which I already have to do
<kwwii> (UNLESS SOMEONE WANTS TO HELP)
<andreasn> does the different art teams have separate mailing lists? or does the discussion take place mostly on the ubuntu-dev mailing list etc?
<andreasn> kwwii: I can give you a hand with that
<kwwii> andreasn: it all takes place on various lists
<luisbg> kwwii, what type of help... I'm willing (a little bit bored lately)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, but it where I would personally put our changes in status about the art. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<troy_s> andreasn: Since the 'community' is sooooo small, it makes sense to try and keep everything centralized to interested parties?
<kwwii> troy_s: but it would not hurt to share info
<kwwii> just basic stuff at first
<troy_s> kwwii: Oh I am not at all against sharing info -- I was thinking that keeping everything art related on the art mailing list is quite a GoodThing(TM)
<andreasn> troy_s: I was mostly thinking about where to direct people who "wanting to help out somewhere"
<troy_s> kwwii: Our audience is rather small (well aside from the pop-in's and deactive types that bombard my email box every day)
<kwwii> luisbg, andreasn: we need to identify all the lists/people involved in the different teams and talk to them
<andreasn> troy_s: I like that idea
<troy_s> andreasn: Yeah I would go +1 for the mailing list.
<_MMA_> troy_s: +1 Its a reason Ive had more a presence there and in the IRC channel.
<luisbg> kwwii, let's identify yes
<troy_s> andreasn: Hell... the art / design related folks are _soooooo_ fractured in FOSS as it is.
<luisbg> kwwii, how?
<andreasn> troy_s: totally :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: And it has had an impact at least in showing solidarity.
<kwwii> luisbg: look around, send emails, etc
<luisbg> kwwii, if you tell me which people in what teams... I'm on it
<luisbg> kwwii, art people in all distros?
<kwwii> then we need to start simply getting info
<kwwii> luisbg: any related to ubuntu, yes
<luisbg> kwwii, ok, I put that task on myself
<troy_s> andreasn: If we can somehow harness Launchpad better we might even end off in a more strengthened position.
<luisbg> if it's ok with everybody off course
<troy_s> kwwii: So... is it safe to say that perhaps a bzr repo with the etched icons might be a good point to get some real work done?
<kwwii> troy_s: definitely
<troy_s> andreasn: You would be able to etch your shapes easily from your mock eh?
<luisbg> bzr +1
<luisbg> with mergeable branches for the new stuff
<troy_s> ok out boys... work to do.
<deezid_> sorry, what does bzr mean?
<andreasn> troy_s: yeah, I can upload whatever I have
<troy_s> (and girls hopefully)
<luisbg> deezid_, it's a control version system
<deezid_> ok
<mgunes> hi all
<kwwii> right, I guess the meeting is finished
<luisbg> deezid_, like cvs or svn, but better ;)
<kwwii> anyone have anything else?
<andreasn> next meeting, when?
<troy_s> andreasn: You and I can perhaps start up a bzr repo for some windeco buttons and the etching then.  I'll pm you in a while.
<deezid_> thx
<kwwii> andreasn: the next meeting will be in the first week of January
<nothlit> if we want help with those make a quick tutorial with the colour ##'s about modifying the existing tango silhouettes
<Ken> What will be covered?
<kwwii> but there might be another meeting called sooner than that to explain the plans
<derQ> where can we find a protocol of this meeting?
<andreasn> troy_s: I have to leave for a party pretty soon, so if you want to send a e-mail to andreas@andreasn.se that might be better
<kwwii> me might want to have it in two weeks this time
<kwwii> ideas?
<nothlit> do we have any status updates on the backlit glass concept? in terms of thematically/emotionally?
<andreasn> kwwii: well, I guess we can bring that up on the mailing list
<deezid_> get rid of the top bar? :D
<deezid_> lol
<kwwii> nothlit: I like it, yeah
<kwwii> andreasn: right
<andreasn> kwwii: if/when we're going with a extra meeting
<kwwii> ok, then for now we are done
<luisbg> deezid_, in ubuntu studio we got rid of the bottom bar and more
<kwwii> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:20.
<Ken> Backlit glass? Is there a link to an example?
<deezid_> wiw
<deezid_> wow
<deezid_> ok
<andreasn> ok, take care everyone!
<andreasn> thanks for a good meeting
<kwwii> yeah, thanks all
<kwwii> great stuff
<luisbg> =)
<Ken> Glad I could spllu bad ideas for the good ones to shine through. :P
<nothlit> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign
<mgunes> kwwii, could you post the log url from mootbot?
 * mgunes got the world clock wrong
<nothlit> Ken*
<nothlit> oh, no wonder he left
<kwwii> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<kwwii> nothlit: yeah?
<kwwii> ahh
<thorwil> backlit glass bot no gloss?
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> and /me is out
<deezid_> example?
<deezid_> mhh
<kwwii> move to #ubuntu-artwork
<nothlit> gloss is entirely outdated and overdone, there is nothing new to be tried there
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-02
<txwikinger> @schedule London
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 04 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting
<kraut> moin
<Hattory> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 04 Dec 17:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-24
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 27 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<\l> nxvl ping
<nxvl> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-25
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
<mvo> @schule berlin
<mvo> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 25 Nov 17:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 18:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 18:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 22:00: Community Council
<apw> @schedule london
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/London: 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
 * mathiaz waves
<soren> o/
<nxvl> \o/
<kirkland> o/
<dholbach>  /o\
<Koon> \o/
<kirkland> ^o^
<nxvl> _o/
<nealmcb> o/
<nxvl> \o_
 * mathiaz puts on some music so that this whole dance makes sense
<dendrobates> o/
<mathiaz> let's get started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> welcome to another meeting of the Server Team!
<mathiaz> Today's amazing and exciting agenda can be found online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081118
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
<mathiaz> most of the questions have been updated
<mathiaz> there is only one left: the RAID question
<mathiaz> kirkland: it's all yours :D
<kirkland> mathiaz: sweet, i've been saving the best for last
<mathiaz> I've also added an item to the Roadmap to cover the ServerFaq update
<mathiaz> kirkland: excellent!
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm editing it now :-)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Jaunty specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty specs
<mathiaz> dendrobates: what's the status on these?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: going along well. but I have a request.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: in the future, when creating a spec do not put the release in the name.  i.e  Hardy identity management.
<dendrobates> Right now we have more specs than sessions, and I am trying to glob some of them together.
<soren> dendrobates: I see your point if the spec in question gets deferred.
<soren> However..
<soren> If there's going to be more work put into a particular area, how should we name the next iteration?
<soren> identity-management-plus-plus? :)
<soren> ...or are you trying to solve a different problem, perhaps?
<dendrobates> soren:  identity management is really too broad anyway.  We need more precise names.
<soren> Point.
<dendrobates> soren: I think that the current method of mapping specs to uds sessions is not working well.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there more time to register blueprints?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: or is the schedule for UDS already completed?
<dendrobates> if you do so in the next 4 hours.
<dendrobates> I am still creating umbrella specs so we can fit all the discussions in, so I will accept last minute additions.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: ok.
<mathiaz> A reminder: register a blueprint, set dendrobates as the approver and target the spec for jaunty
<mathiaz> that way it will show up on the list of specs considered for the next UDS
<mathiaz> if the ubuntu-server team is subsribed it's even better!
<dendrobates> mathiaz: it also saves me time if you propose it for the Jaunty UDS as well.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: is the list of specs currently proposed visible to us, or just you?
 * nealmcb remembers that in the past it has not been visible to mere mortals
<dendrobates> nealmcb: if your launchpad fu is good I'm sure they are available, but the way I see them is through the UDS planning page.
<dendrobates> nealmcb: if I finish today , I can send out a tentative agenda.
<kirkland> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty
<kirkland> ^ all proposed for Jaunty, right now
<kirkland> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server
<dendrobates> kirkland: that does not mean they are scheduled though.
<kirkland> ^ blueprints subscribing ubuntu-server
<kirkland> dendrobates: understood, nealmcb asked for "list of specs currently proposed"
<nealmcb> kirkland: excellent - they fixed my bug :)
<kirkland> these are the two links i've been using as a were-mortal
<kirkland> mere-mortal
<kirkland> though, a were(wolf)-mortal does sound like fun
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there a publicly available version of the UDS schedule?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: not that I know of, but we can put ours on the server blog when I finish.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: that would be great
<mathiaz> dendrobates: ok. Even if there may be some last minute changes, it would be great to have the schedule available soon
<mathiaz> dendrobates: to make a blog post for example.
<dendrobates> as usual, I will buy any server team member a beer if they find me at UDS.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: Today for sure.
 * soren makes  note of that
<mathiaz> dendrobates: today? awesome!
 * Koon cries.
 * kirkland will take dendrobates up on that one :-)
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there a limit on the number of beers per members?
<Koon> I'll also buy any server team member a beer if they can find me at UDS.
<dendrobates> I meant community members, but I'll make an exception.
<dholbach> I sponsored a bunch of packages of server team members - does that make me a server team member too? ;-)
 * ScottK regrets he won't be there this time.
<dendrobates> dholbach: of course!
<dholbach> yoohoo!
 * dholbach hugs y'all
 * mathiaz reminds that being a member of the ubuntu-server team only requires to be subscribed to the ubuntu-server mailing list
 * dholbach uses the opportunity to plug http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<kirkland> Koon: :-P
<kirkland> Koon: ScottK: bummer, dudes!
<nealmcb> Koon: lol
<Koon> nealmcb: I only play when I can't lose.
<nxvl> Koon: you will buy me a beer?
<nxvl> dendrobates: you too?
<zul> Koon: you are skipping out because you need to buy me a beer
<mathiaz> ok - is there anything else related to Jaunty specs and UDS?
<Koon> nxvl: if you can find me at UDS next month, yes :)
 * nealmcb plans to "find koon" via google at uds
<nxvl> Koon: remember i do know you
<dendrobates> nxvl: Koon will be in France, so it will be hard to collect.
<nxvl> :(
<dendrobates> the kicker is I get the choose the beer.
<zul> dendrobates: so the watered down american beer?
<ScottK> Careful.  He's from St. Louis.
<nxvl> i'm from peru, i can play that game
<nxvl> :D
<dendrobates> mmmm, Busch beer.
<nxvl> we drink weird stuff
 * ScottK has been to Peru and can attest to that.
 * Daviey remembers nxvl bottle of yuk
<kirkland> :-D
<nxvl> Daviey: plz! that was pisco, that's normal
<nxvl> Daviey: you don't want to try to weird stuff
<Daviey> :)
<kirkland> -> the #beer-server team
 * ScottK brought back Pisco when he was there.  
<nealmcb> I see ebox on the server team spec list (from boston), but haven't yet spotted something for gui server admin on the jaunty list - is there something related to that already?
<ScottK> I understand it's not exported any more or something.
 * Koon cheers mathiaz, who desperately tries to keep the meeting on topic :)
<RoAkSoAx> nxvl: give them "7 raices" or "rompe calzon" :P lol
<ScottK> What topic are we on?  I came in late.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on as we drifting from the current subject
<nxvl> RoAkSoAx: plz! aguarras!
<mathiaz> The topic is Jaunty specs and UDS
<ScottK> I intend to work on automating postfix-amavisd-new-clamav-spamassassin setup.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: dendrobates anything related to server gui?
<nealmcb> a good set of server gui links is at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/68/
<ScottK> As we discussed before.
<ScottK> I can write a spec for that if you want?
<nealmcb> but it all still needs updating I'm sure, given augeas progress
<dendrobates> mathiaz: yes there will be a discussion of the configuration framework to be used by any =mgt front end.
<mathiaz> ScottK: is this the spec using fai as the way to setup the system?
<dendrobates> ScottK: will you be able to join in remotely?  We plan on discussing an integrated mail stack.
 * nealmcb notices non-gui spec also :)  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/oem-config/+spec/oem-config-server/
<ScottK> mathiaz: No.  That spec is still there (I updated it slightly), but it's more work than I can do in my free time.
<nealmcb> though that is for desktops not servers
<dendrobates> nealmcb:  that is more of a first boot thing
<ScottK> mathiaz: It'll be building on the config scripts I did for Postfix in Intrepid.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: well - that's the point of the spec: to get a server version of oem-config
<ScottK> dendrobates: Possibly.  TZ diff isn't too bad.
<lamont> hrm.. yet more sessions I'll want to join remotely...
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok. If you could write up a spec that would be helpful
<mathiaz> ScottK: with a least a list of things that could be done on the mail server stack.
<ScottK> dendrobates: If you can schduled during east coast working hours, I can likely make it.
<dendrobates> ScottK: I'll do my best
<ScottK> Groceries have arrived, so I need to run off for a bit.
<mathiaz> allright - anything else for Jaunty specs and UDS?
<kirkland> mathiaz: interrupting ...  i have updated the RAID sections of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerFaq
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks!
<nealmcb> dendrobates, mathiaz - I'll be curious to see what backend oem-config uses to do the config itself
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> nealmcb: It uses the same infrastructure as the installer IIRC
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<mathiaz> sommer: ^^?
<sommer> not sure there's much more news from last time
<mathiaz> sommer: right - the wiki page has a list of points to work on
<sommer> started working on kerberos + ldap, but other than that
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide
<mathiaz> sommer: did you think about the reasons for splitting the server guide into its own source package?
<mathiaz> sommer: or should we just defer that topic to the UDS session?
<sommer> mathiaz: ya, and I don't think it'll have that many advantages at this point
<sommer> mathiaz: sure we can mull it over more at UDS
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - great.
<sommer> also haven't received any feed back from the doc team on the subject, so it's probably not a big deal either way
<mathiaz> That's all for last week minutes
<mathiaz> Anything else to add wrt to last week meeting?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on to the next topic
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
<mathiaz> how are we doing on the merging front?
 * kirkland did a few this weekend, adding init scripts along the way
<kirkland> and filing bugs with Debian for the diffs
 * kirkland notes that the Debian email responder is *much* faster now
<kirkland> and it's slightly less painful to file bugs with patches back upstream with Debian
<ScottK> The reportbug we have in Intrepid supports attaching the patch with the original submission now.
<mathiaz> ok - I'll keep the list of 'easy-merges' up-to-date.
<ScottK> That saves a step.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
 * soren mumbles about submittodebian from ubuntu-dev-tools
<kirkland> ScottK: right; i usually like to add the debian bug number in the merge changelog
<kirkland> ScottK: that used to mean waiting some ungodly long time for the Debian BTS to get around to responding
<kirkland> ScottK: now, that's more like 3 minutes or so
<kirkland> which makes it just "a long time", and not "an ungodly long time"  :-)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> anything to add?
<mathiaz> ivoks: ^^ ?
<ivoks> heh
<ScottK> mathiaz: I do have something on libdb transitions.
<ivoks> i'm back, that's all i can say :)
<ScottK> mathiaz: Looking at the patch in Bug #301169 it appears to me there are some interface changes in DB 4.7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301169 in gramps "Include patch to allow gramps to work with BerkeleyDB 4.7 (dup-of: 301170)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301169
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301170 in gramps "Include patch to allow gramps to work with BerkeleyDB 4.7" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301170
<Koon> For those with a likewise-open setup, I need help in testing the hardy SRU (bug 230466), currently in -proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230466 in likewise-open "Likewise uninstall, Lock login to system" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230466
<Koon> I tested it but would welcome someone else validating it, and it's been lingering for quite some time
<ScottK> Fortunately it looks like at least in some cases Fedora has patches so we can get them from there.  Fedora patches are usually very good.
<sommer> Koon: I can try an take a look at that this evening
<Koon> Thanks somer ! also MOTUs could sponsor the tomcat5.5 hardy SRU (bug 179447), it's also been acked for quite some time
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 179447 in tomcat5.5 "Installation of tomcat5.5 fails if openjdk-6 or a JRE is installed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179447
<Koon> sommer, I mean
<mathiaz> ScottK: are the instructions on the Roadmap still accurate?
<mathiaz> ScottK: Note: To do the migration make sure its not using transactions: grep for transaction in the source code - if transactions aren't used, update the build-dep/depends. Otherwise, existing data have to be migrated to a new structure.
<ScottK> mathiaz: For transition to 4.6, yes.  For 4.7 it appears more complicated.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Getting everything to 4.6 would be a big victory.
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok.
<mathiaz> Anything else to add?
<ScottK> No.  Just wanted to make sure whoever is working that was aware.
<ScottK> mathiaz: On a new topic, in Intrepid we got roadblocked on tasksel and too many options.
<ScottK> Is there a plan to deal with that for Jaunty?
<ScottK> Part of the mail server stack question is how many options can we reasonably provide.
<mathiaz> ScottK: there is a session about the server installer
<ScottK> mathiaz: OK.  I probably won't participate, I'd just like a U/I that allows more choices so we can offer different mail server configs.
<mathiaz> ScottK: sure - at least we'll have a specific use case to discuss during the session
<mathiaz> let's move on as there is another meeting coming up
<ScottK> OK.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> next week, same place, same time?
<kirkland> oui!
<sommer> sure
<Koon> ok
<mathiaz> ok - great then
<mathiaz> see ya all next week, here.
<mathiaz> happy merging !
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: perfect timing on the meeting....
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
 * soren kicks MootBot for not being in UTC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
<pgraner> Time for the Kernel Team Meeting. Sorry I'm late, schedule mix up.
 * apw crawls out of the woodwork
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:16. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * smb_tp is here
 * rtg brushes the splinters off of apw
<pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<pgraner> Agenda is at the above link
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels
<pgraner> Intrepid/Hardy/Others
<pgraner> smb_tp: where do we stand?
<smb_tp> pgraner, on the way for dapper-hardy
<smb_tp> pgraner, currently building
<rtg> pgraner: intrepid -security built, awaiting publishing.
<smb_tp> gutsy and hardy needed a bit more brushing because some custo flavours broke over the abi bumper
<pgraner> smb_tp: Cool. Anything else on that front?
<smb_tp> pgraner, no not for -security
<apw> does the current intrepid proposed include the -security fix?
<rtg> apw: indeed, that is the rule
<pgraner> smb_tp: what about bug fixing anything in the pipe?
<smb_tp> pgraner, I plan to roll the big -stable update with some more bugfixing for hardy soon
<rtg> smb_tp: with stable updates?
<smb_tp> rtg, yes
<smb_tp> rtg, so it get more test time
<rtg> good
<smb_tp> I think I have finally everything building
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<smb_tp> again various falvour wanted love
<pgraner> BenC: How are we doing?
<smb_tp> -rt is updated to a more recent version
<BenC> pgraner: a little behind schedule, but looks like we'll have an upload today finally
<pgraner> BenC: what was the hold up?
<BenC> Lots of stuff kept popping up like ubuntu/* module build failures, changes in asm include location that needed to be handled for proper linux-headers-* packages, some merges in the rebase caused build failures...
<BenC> I emailed a list of the modules I disabled in ubuntu/ (nothing critical) to kernel-team@ so people can get to forward porting them
<rtg> BenC: do we still need gfs? I thought gfs2 would supersede it?
<rtg> p.s. I removed ubuntu/e1000e
<BenC> rtg: I seem to remember fabbione saying we wouldn't need it any more after intrepid, but need to verify
<BenC> the via_chrome module I still need to remove
<BenC> was added to mainline in .28
<BenC> rtg: thanks
<BenC> rtg: I'll squash that entirely in the next rebase
<pgraner> BenC: What if any new .config features did .28 bring in over .27?
<BenC> pgraner: 64-bit xen support was the big one...quite a few new drivers as well
<BenC> There were a few new scheduler options which are enabled, but we still have cgroups as default
<pgraner> BenC: At UDS we have a session to review each config option and determine if its needed, if not a reason why.
<rtg> BenC: are we still gonna carry i386 non-PAE ?
<BenC> pgraner: have you set aside two days for that session? That's a lot of config options
<BenC> pgraner: or is this just a .27->.28 config option review?
<rtg> maybe we should look at the ones that aren't set first.
<pgraner> BenC: Two hours, is all we get... The idea is to really review the "questionable ones" and determine if we need them or not. Things we don't turn on we need to document why.
<BenC> rtg: non-PAE is dropping support for a lot of equipment
<pgraner> BenC: one we do it the first time every UDS we just have to look at the delta
<BenC> mostly the epia folks
<rtg> BenC: makes sense to move it into the -ports kernel, we talked about it at the Hardy UDS.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
<rtg> s/Hardy/Intrepid/
<BenC> rtg: like a -386-smp kernel?
<rtg> BenC: well, I was thinking more about booting the UP flavour.
<rtg> or did we already in Intrepid?
<BenC> rtg: we did that in intrepid
<BenC> -386 is in -ports
<rtg> right, I forgot. too many configs
<BenC> rtg: however -generic is non-PAE
<BenC> 32-bit I mean
<BenC> 32-bit -server is PAE
<rtg> right, which is going to start causing issues on +4GB systems.
<apw> is numa enabled in any of them?
<rtg> anyway, a good UDS topic.
<BenC> rtg: with 64-bit flashplayer, that's becoming more the way to go with these +4G systems anyway
<BenC> right, UDS topic for sure
<BenC> lots of variables in this one
<BenC> apw: -server kernels
<BenC> apw: wait, not 32-bit -server
<amitk> lpia needs to be decided too. Since there was talk of getting rid of the lpia arch itself
<rtg> apw: NUMA on amd64 only
<pgraner> amitk: That topic is on the schedule
<apw> ta
<smb_tp> amitk, rid of as in use i386 or move to -ports?
<amitk> smb_tp: use i386 arch instead of a separate lpia arch
<smb_tp> amitk, ok
<pgraner> BenC: Anything else?
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status
<pgraner> amitk: how goes it?
<amitk> configs rebased to 2.6.28 and homogenized
<amitk> work started on omap configs
<BenC> pgraner: I tested a dkms build against the new headers and it built fine
<BenC> fglrx to be exact, but it crashes xorg
<pgraner> BenC: nice, seems to be the ritual lately
<pgraner> amitk: you have all the info you need from the mobile team to keep moving forward?
<amitk> pgraner: for the moment, yes. I do need people to test those kernels though :)
<pgraner> amitk: where is the NSLU2 one, I can at least test that
<amitk> pgraner: it is in the archive now
<rtg> amitk: what kind of hardware does it require?
<rtg> I still have a Beagleboard
<amitk> rtg: no kernel for beagleboard yet.
<rtg> i'm off the hook, then
<pgraner> amitk: you have flashing procedures for the NSLU2 yet?
<amitk> pgraner: I am running off a USB stick
<pgraner> amitk: ah, ok.
<pgraner> amitk: anything else?
<amitk> I'll find links to the hardware page for the armel flavours and post it so people can test it
<amitk> thats it
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<pgraner> Anyone have anything they want/need to bring up?
<rtg> Intrepid update in -proposed, install it and test.
<smb_tp> pgraner, maibe upload right for kernel?
 * pgraner has it just need to reboot
<pgraner> smb_tp: UDS (jono will be talking to everyone about it)
 * apw is waiting for the meeting to end to download it, but has a number of happy bug reporters who have run it
<smb_tp> pgraner, ok
<rtg> Still messing with Intrepid compat-wireless in LBM.
<ScottK> I'd like to bring up the possibility of including the Dazuko access control modules in the kernel for Jaunty.
<ScottK> http://dazuko.dnsalias.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://dazuko.dnsalias.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
<ScottK> It looks like they are finally serious about getting into the main line kernel, so it might be supportable.
<rtg> ScottK: this is outside mainline still?
<ScottK> Yes, but working to get in.
<rtg> yep- just read that
<ScottK> Which they weren't for a while, so I didn't bring it up.
<rtg> so, earliest mainline inclusion is .29
<ScottK> The immediate use case (where I'm interested) is for Klamav on-access file scanning.
<rtg> we can sure look at it.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<rtg> apw also has a new driver he wants in Intrepid.
<ScottK> I know zip about kernel stuff, so there isn't much I can do other than want it.
<apw> there is a little laptop support driver for the panasonic laptops
<rtg> ScottK: send an email request to the kernel team list. kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com
<apw> which might be appropriate for inclusion
<ScottK> rtg: WIll do.
<pgraner> ScottK: once you send it to the list, I'll add it to the UDS feature discussion list for inclusion
<apw> i am just building it now for testing, we used to have support for these laptops back in gutsy timeframe, and do not now
<pgraner> Anyone else on Open Discussion?
<ScottK> pgraner: Thanks.  Writing the mail now.
<pgraner> Ok moving on then...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS
<pgraner> The UDS schedule is 95% complete, I have two open 1 hour slots left...
<pgraner> Current schedule is here: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/kernel/
<pgraner> [LINK] http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/kernel/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/kernel/
<rtg> pgraner: is that accessible to everyone?
<ScottK> pgraner: Sent.
<rtg> it asked me for a login
<pgraner> rtg: should be you need a LP account
<smb_tp> pgraner, got to it
 * pgraner could be wrong tho
<BenC> rtg: openID?
<apw> the highlighted squares seem a little random
<rtg> pgraner: its was my LP account info that I used.
<BenC> rtg: it uses your launchpad openid login
<rtg> BenC: right, but I'd like to advertise it some of our visitors that might not have an LP account
<rtg> Broadcom, forexample.
<pgraner> If you looking on the meeting agenda page for today https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting  you'll see various team members have been given various topics to work on.
<pgraner> rtg: I'll see if we have a public schedule someplace
<BenC> rtg: they will need lp accounts in order to be included in the scheduling
<apw> pgraner, what is the significance of the greyed out status on some of these?
<pgraner> I'd like each of the Canonical kernel team to look at the areas they have and fill out the spec wiki page (linked from the blueprint)
<pgraner> apw: each color is a different kind of session (talk, blueprint, plenary...)
<apw> oh its just poor color choice, not some bold some not, doh
<pgraner> Any suggestions for the two open sessions?
<rtg> apw: this schedule is also deceptive in that it only shows the kernel track. there are probably up to 4 tracks.
<rtg> pgraner: leave 'em open so we can mingle in other tracks
<ogasawara> pgraner: I'm not sure it warrents a session but I'd like bring up the upstream vanilla kernel topic again (ie providing an upstream kernel package)
<pgraner> rtg: That was a thought as well
<rtg> ogasawara: good topic
<pgraner> ogasawara: we can hit that in the process session. Just go to the wiki page for that session and add it so we dont' forget
<ogasawara> pgraner: will do, thanks
<rtg> pgraner: were you gonna mention FOSS camp?
<pgraner> rtg: what about it?
<rtg> just that it exists in conjunction with UDS
<rtg> I'll be there.
<pgraner> rtg: As I
<pgraner> BenC: are you going?
 * pgraner can't remember
<rtg> pgraner: seems like he was
<BenC> pgraner: yeah
<pgraner> BenC: Ok...
<BenC> arriving on the 4th
 * pgraner on the 3rd
<rtg> I goofed and am arriving on the 3rd also
 * rtg moderates ScottK's email out of existence (just kidding)
<pgraner> I was thinking about dropping the Roundtable of the agenda due to the team size and the time it takes. Any objections? We can just fold it into the open discussion as needed...
<rtg> wfm - that way I can hide if I've nothing to say.
<smb_tp> pgraner, fine with me 2
<apw> works for me
<pgraner> sweet
<lieb> fine here
<pgraner> Ok last thing is ogasawara's bug list...
<pgraner> ogasawara: how are we looking
 * pgraner forgot to add it to the agenda :-(
<ogasawara> pgraner: the team did awesome last week - of the 35 bugs, 25 got addressed
<pgraner> ogasawara: are the new guys helping or hurting?
 * pgraner guesses helping
<ogasawara> pgraner:  definitely helping
<ogasawara> pgraner: the rate of new bugs coming in has slowed a bit too which is nice
<sconklin> woot
<pgraner> Great work folks
 * apw polishes his 'swat' badge
<sconklin> although, I think there are no low hanging fruit left :)
<pgraner> sconklin: time to start climbing the "tree"
<rtg> sconklin: sure there are, anything with an upstream patch attached.
<pgraner> Anything else folks?
<apw> nothing here
<smb_tp> nope
<sconklin> no
<lieb> no
<pgraner> Ok, thats it then
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:08.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-26
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Nov 16:00: Foundation Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
<cjwatson> good afternoon
<robbiew> good morning
<slangasek> morning
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<robbiew> early morning TheMuso
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> evand is on vacation today, right?
<cjwatson> yep
<mvo> has scott joined us officially now btw?
<cjwatson> once he's back from vacation ...
<robbiew> yes...well not officially until UDS
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> doko: joining?
<doko> online
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> I've posted the agenda on the wiki
<robbiew> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/20081126#Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/20081126#Agenda
<robbiew> [TOPIC] UDS!!!!
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS!!!!
<robbiew> I *think* I've gotten all the sessions scheduled
<robbiew> you should be able to see them at the summit.ubuntu.com link
<robbiew> not sure if those without admin access can or cannot
<mvo> I see no link to see a schedule
<TheMuso> Nothing for me either.
<robbiew>  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/
<robbiew> nothing under Schedule?
<mvo> no "Schedule" for me :)
<robbiew> hmm...must not be open to the public yet
<TheMuso> No
<cjwatson> mvo,TheMuso: are you both registered to attend?
<mvo> I think so
<robbiew> strange
<cjwatson> ... yes, apparently so
<cjwatson> -> pitti
 * mvo is actually pretty sure
<TheMuso> Yes
<cjwatson> I've asked him on #ubuntu-devel
<robbiew> cjwatson: thnx
<cjwatson> 16:07 <pitti> cjwatson: ATM yes, according to Scott, since it's still preliminary
<cjwatson> anyway, interested people can follow there
<robbiew> I've also created a roundtable section on the wiki
<robbiew> so at least we have some topics ready to go
<robbiew> feel free to add
<slangasek> where on the wiki?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/December2008
<robbiew> under "Roundtable Topics" ;)
<robbiew> only have a few
<cjwatson> I suggested that suitable roundtable topics would be general development discussions that aren't likely to need to turn into implementation plans
<cjwatson> and are of reasonably broad interest
<cjwatson> please recheck summit.u.c?
<robbiew> well moving on
<james_w> hi all, sorry I'm late
<slangasek> recheck it for a calendar?  I can't see one, still
<james_w> you can see the schedule if you go to /foundations/
<robbiew> heh...directly
<robbiew> good trick
<TheMuso> Cool.
<mvo> nice
<doko> james_w: could you elaborate on distributed development toolchain in the wiki?
<james_w> doko: now, or expand on it in the wiki?
<cjwatson> doko: (doesn't mean toolchain as in the compiler, means toolchain as in the tools we use for dist. dev.)
<doko> james_w: later in the wiki
<james_w> doko: sure, but what cjwatson said.
<robbiew> as for session leaders, we don't have to hash that out here
<james_w> suggestions for a better title are welcom
<cjwatson> james_w: perhaps "tools" or "toolset"
<james_w> toolset it is, thanks
<robbiew> I'll send email or irc folks with sessions that I *think* they should lead
<robbiew> then we can go from there
<robbiew> feel free to let me know if there's any of them that you are dying to lead ;)
<cjwatson> if you need to get a brain-dump of anything from me, please do so by close of play tomorrow
<cjwatson> otherwise you'll probably miss your chance
<robbiew> right...I think we've covered them all, so I'm fine
 * robbiew promises NOT to call cjwatson on his mobile
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs
<cjwatson> feel free to SMS if it's urgent, then I can decide when/how to respond ;-)
<robbiew> ok
<robbiew> besides reviewing the Milestoned/Targeted as usual, there will be a major effort to address bugs during the release
<robbiew> and then hopefully establish this as the "norm" in subsequent releases
<robbiew> Matt has told us that he will support dropping features if we deem it necessary to fix a reasonable amount of bugs
<robbiew> our trick is to find that balance
<cjwatson> I'm going to extend the bugfix-history thing I hacked up, or pass it over to somebody for extensions
<cjwatson> (http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bugfix-history/plots/month-fixed.png)
<robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<cjwatson> if we pushed the fix-upload rate up by a couple of hundred a month, we'd be able to start decreasing the number of outstanding bugs
<cjwatson> so even a little bit of rebalancing here could be really very useful
<robbiew> moving on
<cjwatson> (over the last six months, the net increase in open bugs comes to about a thousand)
<robbiew> yuk
<cjwatson> (out of 48000 or so)
<robbiew> IMO that's a tremendously large backlog
<robbiew> is there any effort to close bugs that we simply will not fix
<cjwatson> it is huge, although that's the whole archive; I haven't filtered out just main there
<cjwatson> closing bugs that we simply won't fix is politically tricky; we do have a state for it but of course it's rarely much comfort to the hapless reporter
<robbiew> right
<slangasek> one thing I've noticed when doing merges is that there are a number of packages that simply don't have anybody watching their bugs in main
<cjwatson> I think we should probably do it a little bit more than we do, though
<cjwatson> we err on the conservative side there
<slangasek> because one package I merged had over half its bugs mis-assigned to the package
<slangasek> and I was wondering if we shouldn't figure out some way to make sure we have /someone/ monitoring bugs for each package, on some level
<doko> slangasek: but this is intentional until now
<robbiew> cjwatson: perhaps a better sounding reason, like "Resources Unavailable to Fix"
<slangasek> doko: well, one of the effects is that bugs that might be trivial for the person who touched-it-last to fix may languish indefinitely
<doko> or just distinguish between state and reason?
 * robbiew sometimes misses bugzilla
<cjwatson> I think there may perhaps be more effective ways to get through the backlog than to end up getting into thousands of little separate arguments about whether bugs should remain open
<robbiew> true
<cjwatson> in many of the cases the bugs really are pretty trivial and reporters are rightly annoyed that it's taken us so long to get round to them
<cjwatson> I'd like to limit the scope of what we pay attention to of course, it shouldn't be all 48000
<robbiew> in my prior job, I managed a team that's entire job was monitoring the bugs...ensuring both submitters and those assigned to fix were paying attention
<robbiew> maybe we need a team like that...but that's way out of the scope of this meeting :)
<cjwatson> that's Henrik's team
<cjwatson> conceptually anyway
<robbiew> changing gears
<james_w> I see a "Foundations bugs" discussion on the schedule, is that to discuss this
<james_w> or is that a meeting with gmb from launchpad to discuss how launchpad could help us more?
<cjwatson> the "Foundations bugs" session is a slot for us with the Launchpad Bugs team
<cjwatson> right, the latter
<robbiew> we can bring this up in a Roundtable
<cjwatson> if any of you have been using the launchpadlib APIs for bugs, that'd be a good place to discuss your experiences and request extensions, for instance
<james_w> cool, gmb got plenty of that from us in Lexington, he'll be well prepared :-)
<cjwatson> (main/restricted comes to 30000 bugs)
<mvo> better launchpad support++
<TheMuso> I don't use launchpad api, but I do use email.
<TheMuso> And email still lacks things like changing the package for a bug, as opposed to opening a new task, and invalidating the other.
<james_w> a session discussing what bugs to target, how to find them etc. would probably be a good one to have. robbiew: is that what you meant for the roundtable?
<robbiew> james_w: yes
<james_w> great
<cjwatson> find> and track on an ongoing basis so that we can (a) not lose things we decided we wanted to fix (b) measure our progress (c) show off our progress if it's any good :-)
<cjwatson> the QA team has offered to help there
<robbiew> right, I should point out that this is across the entire Ubuntu team...not just Foundations
<robbiew> anything else on bugs?
<robbiew> .
<robbiew> ..
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<robbiew> I've noticed some include sponsorship queue work in their activity and some don't
<robbiew> is everyone supposed to be doing this?
 * robbiew is still new
<cjwatson> everyone who has upload privileges should be spending an hour a week on sponsorship
<robbiew> ah, ok
<cjwatson> (i.e. all members of ubuntu-core-dev or ubuntu-dev)
<TheMuso> Well perhaps shouldn't we remove bugs from the sponsorship queue that are otherwise waiting for something to happen? I have checked the queue a few times, and I still see bugs that are waiting for something from the person who's work is being sponsored etc.
<james_w> I prefer not to do that
<TheMuso> I personally would find things easier if the main-sponsors queue only had bugs showing that need attention from a sponsor.
<slangasek> so s/shouldn't/should/, you mean?
<james_w> daniel just changed http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ to show who the last commenter was
<mvo> it would be nice to have it sorted by new item, but it seems to be difficult (from a technical POV)
<slangasek> mvo: LP has "bug age" and "last touched" sort orders?
<TheMuso> slangasek: yes
<mvo> slangasek: right, I should try that, I was refering to the sponsoring page itself, but I should try lp I guess
<TheMuso> james_w: Ok thats nice to know, thanks.
<james_w> TheMuso: core-dev are in bold for easy scanning, does that work for you?
<slangasek> ah; I've stopped using the sponsoring page in favor of the LP view @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-main-sponsors
<TheMuso> james_w: Not really,
<james_w> TheMuso: perhaps you would like to talk to Daniel about changing it so that it would
<TheMuso> james_w: Bold only is useful if I ask what font/style the text is in from the reader.
<mvo> slangasek: that view (with "last touch") is what I want, thanks
<TheMuso> james_w: I'll try his page, and the URL slangasek gave and see whether any of those work better for me.
<robbiew> TheMuso: don't some readers change the pitch of voice to indicate bold?
<TheMuso> robbiew: Its not possible in orca at the moment.
<robbiew> ah
<TheMuso> I'll double check, but I don't think so.
<TheMuso> robbiew: I also use a text mode browser for some things, as I find it more efficient, as orca+firefox is still somewhat clunky.
<robbiew> well, if I'd appreciate it, if people could be sure to mention any sponsorship work in their reports...no big details needed
<robbiew> moving on to a topic I'm sure we all love
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Google Calendars
<MootBot> New Topic:  Google Calendars
<robbiew> I know it's a pain in the @$$
<TheMuso> No kidding.
<slangasek> the mail said we were supposed to receive invites to set up accounts? I haven't received one yet
 * mvo neither
<robbiew> you can setup yourself
<robbiew> one sec, let me find the link
<mvo> is there a wiki page or something that we can follow?
<robbiew> http://partnerpage.google.com/canonical.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://partnerpage.google.com/canonical.com
<cjwatson> if you set it up yourself it won't be in the canonical.com domain, will it?
<robbiew> yes
<cjwatson> ask Jeremy Northeast for a password, he's been doing that
<robbiew> I did
<robbiew> what happens is that you have to provide a canonical.com address
<robbiew> and it sends a verification email
<slangasek> oh, I /just/ received login info
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> robbiew: ah
<slangasek> hrm, but he doesn't say what I'm supposed to do with the l/p info
<robbiew> slangasek: hmm
 * robbiew looks for the link he used
<cjwatson> slangasek: http://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/canonical.com
<slangasek> ok
<robbiew> cjwatson: thnx
<robbiew> that's probably enough on that subject
<robbiew> see warthogs if you want more opinions/info than you ever thought you needed
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Armel specific build fixes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Armel specific build fixes
<robbiew> doko: this is yours :)
<doko> well, yes. there are some bugs tagged ftbfs-armel
<doko> these should get some attention, many of those are kde related, but not all.
<james_w> any news on a porter box? I know it's not always required, but it would sometimes help.
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ftbfs-armel
<doko> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ might give some hints as well. note that the build failure on armel doesn't mean it doesn't occur on other archs, it's not yet built there
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ might give some hints as well. note that the build failure on armel doesn't mean it doesn't occur on other archs, it's not yet built there
<cjwatson> james_w: we're due to get one, but waiting on hardware
<cjwatson> but it's definitely on davidm's list
<james_w> thanks
<cjwatson> I agree that it would help quite a bit
<james_w> on a related note, if I wanted access to porter boxes would I just ask IS?
<cjwatson> it's also useful if people could look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing-ports/jaunty_probs.html and try to diagnose uninstallability
<cjwatson> that's often perfectly feasible with no hardware but a bit of creativity
<cjwatson> any Canonical developer can ask to be added to the porting_team group, which gives access to all the porting boxes
<doko> cjwatson: I usually test uninstallability on an armel box itself by trying an apt-get install, the page alone doesn't help that much
<cjwatson> file an RT request
<cjwatson> doko: I wasn't speaking theoretically; I have been using that page to help with installability problems, despite having no armel hardware
<cjwatson> doko: yes, it takes a little bit longer because you have to use dpkg -I on an archive to figure out what's wrong, but it's not that bad
<slangasek> doko: you pung me last week while I was in Lexington about an armel failure you wanted me to look at, and I've misplaced the reference; do you still need me to look at it, and if so can you remind me the package?
<mvo> I guess we could simulate something with a bit of "apt-get install -O Apt::Architecuture=armel" magic
<doko> slangasek: no, fixed it
<mvo> (to get better diagnosis why something is uninstallable)
<doko> libgda
<cjwatson> mvo: if you can put together a recipe, that would be generally very useful
<slangasek> ok
<mvo> cjwatson: will do after the meeting, sounds like a fun hack
<robbiew> 3 minutes left
<robbiew> doko is it okay to move the next agenda item to next week?
<doko> sure
<robbiew> thn
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * TheMuso will be traveling this time next week.
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> cjwatson is gone for two weeks
<robbiew> cjwatson: tomorrow is your last day, right?
<cjwatson> yeah, it's looking like it
 * robbiew takes a deep breath and assures himself that "HE WILL BE OKAY"
<robbiew> lol
<james_w> all the best cjwatson, you will be missed at UDS.
<cjwatson> thanks!
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<mvo> yeah, all the best!
<robbiew> yep...and I'll have you on speed-text
<robbiew> :P
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
<robbiew> thanks all...good meeting
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<ara> hello :-)
<schwuk> hi ara
<pedro_> hello
<pedro_> sbeattie: ogasawara ping?
<sbeattie> hey
 * ogasawara waves
<ogasawara> do we have an agenda for today?
<pedro_> i don't see any agenda item for today, does anybody has anything to add or shall we do a quickie ?
<pedro_> i have just one reminder ;-)
<cr3> perhaps we could mention topics relating to uds?
<pedro_> ok.. there's a lot to do on the SRU side: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<pedro_> esp on hardy/intrepid, if you can help , please enable the proposed repositories and give feedback on those reports
<ogasawara> re QA UDS specs, they should be listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
<pedro_> yep and on that topic there's also : http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/qa/
<pedro_> any other business?
<ogasawara> none here
<ara> nop, but thanks for the reminder on the specs for the uds
<ara> I was on holidays last week and I am trying to catch things up
<pedro_> let's wrap then, thanks everybody!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
<ara> thanks!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-27
<mib_ydg6fb2d> http://www.oosms.com > Send Unlimited Free SMS to any mobile phone Worldwide!
<mib_x20o6z2y> hi
<Hobbsee> no spam here, thanks.
<mib_ydg6fb2d> http://www.oosms.com > Send Unlimited Free SMS to any mobile phone Worldwide!
<mib_ydg6fb2d> oh.. sorry
<Hobbsee> Especially not twice.
<Hobbsee> nor in any other #ubuntu channel.
<mib_ydg6fb2d> sorry.. im new here
<mib_ydg6fb2d> will not do it
 * Hobbsee doesn't believe that...
<mib_ydg6fb2d> could u let me know where else i can do that
<Hobbsee> spam the network?  You can't.
<mib_ydg6fb2d> decent classified
<Hobbsee> PriceChild: you missed one.
<PriceChild> pow
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
<lool> hey
<lool> meeting?
<lool> ogra
<ogra> yep
<ogra> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:04. The chair is ogra.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<lool> ogra: Only the two of us so far
<ogra> not true :)
<ogra> StevenK, just joined
<lool> Oh right, I'm hiding joins here now
<StevenK> Did not
<ogra> but it will be only us three
<lool> No wiki page I'm afraid
<ogra> davidm should be up to his ears in turkey now and persia is vacating heavily i hope
<lool> Yup
<ogra> right, no wikipage
<lool> I have a couple of topics I couldn't add to the agenda
<lool> But it's basically about UDS sessions
<ogra> shoot then, since we dont seem to have anything special anyway
<lool> There are a couple of ideas I didn't add as bps
<lool> Or merged into a single discussion
<lool> One is about lpia
<ogra> (got a topic name for the bot ?)
<lool> [topic] uds sessions
<lool> Or optional uds sessions
<lool> s/optional/possible
<ogra> [topic]  optional uds sessions
<MootBot> New Topic:   optional uds sessions
<lool> Ok
<ogra> to late :)
<lool> So one thing is I merged the "tool to upgrade from one arch to another" session into "lpia versus i386" which is about whether we keep lpia
<StevenK> I've been thinking about that.
<StevenK> I think we want a session to discuss lpia?
<lool> Do you people think we should have two sessions on the two subjects, or that it's ok to proceed like this?
<lool> StevenK: I filed an i386-vs-lpia one
<ogra> i wonder if we really should discuss keep/drop of lpia
<ogra> i think it would run fine alongside the existing x86 arch if we wouldnt have to touch any packages at all for lpia specifics
<lool> ogra: At the very least, there's quite a list of tasks to gather if we decide to drop lpia
<ogra> since in the end lpia boils down to toolchan and kernel optimizations only
<ogra> the archive should solve tself if you take out the hildonization tasks
<lool> Yes, but it needs maintenance over source packages: we have modified some debian packages to add lpia and new packages will be added
<lool> ogra: Agreed
<ogra> right, but thats the only task left
<StevenK> lool: The kernel team might kill us
<lool> ogra: But if lpia is not significantly faster, don't you think we should drop it?
<ogra> so it might make sense to leave it idle and just make sure we rip out the specific hack/patches
<lool> I heard many complaints about lpia in the kernel and OEM teams
<ogra> well, we should determine how much work is actually left if its only archive admininstration for a self running arch
<lool> To be honest, I don't think the kernel concerns would go away if we dropped lpia
<ogra> i.e. adding Arch: lpia to packages
<ogra> the archive itself shouldnt need much maintenance
<lool> ogra: Running the buildds, giving back packages etc.; I think it ends up amounting to some expense to run the arch; cdimage is short on space too, and it's not clear why we'd buy a seed for this or that arch
<StevenK> This should be discussed at UDS ... :-)
<lool> say, why don't we have desktop lpia images and no i386 mid image
<lool> StevenK: Good point
<ogra> StevenK, well, we need to find a base for discussion :) but yes, detalis should be at UDS
<lool> So my gut feeling is that we might lean towards dropping lpia; but in all cases: do we want to discuss the arch conversion separately or as part of lpia vs i386 discussions?
<StevenK> I'm happy that it's spec'd.
<StevenK> Let's discuss that during the time slot
 * ogra would merge it 
<StevenK> If we have the time to do it then, do it then
<lool> http://wiki.debian.org/ArchTakeover
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.debian.org/ArchTakeover
<lool> Ok, then it's merged
<StevenK> If not
<ogra> ... we'll have another slot :)
<StevenK> Right
<StevenK> We can always reschedule it again
<ogra> oh, sweet, you cover arm vs armel there as well :)
<lool> the other thing I wanted to ask is about a hildon session; I wanted to have one but the hildon schedule slipped a little
 * ogra likes that
<ogra> you mean upstream ?
<lool> Still they announced a SDK in november as planned
<lool> http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/b417b43eb57011dd9edafbe56a658d758d75/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/b417b43eb57011dd9edafbe56a658d758d75/
<lool> Yes
<lool> Also, we usually don't discuss packaging of new GNOMEs, so I wasn't sure whether we wanted a session on the new hildon
<ogra> well, to get an overview it would help
<ogra> the clutter integration etc are big steps upstream
<lool> Ok; so perhaps I should add a bp for a discussion around hildon 2.2
<ogra> would make sense to have some time to look into that ... informational though
<lool> That's all I had for UDS sessions
<ogra> do we have any plans for mid on arm ? should we discuss something like that ?
<ogra> existing devices usually only have 128M ... people that have such thingies wont use ubuntu-desktop on tehm
<ogra> (nor -umpc which is similar resource greedy)
<ogra> mid sees the only official setup we can provide for such devices atm
<ogra> though our arm work isnt focused on mobile at all
<lool> ogra: Oh right, I mentionned that on IRC
<lool> and didn't bring it up formally here
<lool> For armel, I know we aim at building desktop, and perhaps server images
<ogra> right, thats what i mean
<lool> Even if I'm not sure how useful the former will be on the RAM constraints
<lool> But we didn't discuss porting of other images yet
<lool> It'd seem most useful to offer the mid/mobile/umpc/netbook images on armel!
<ogra> the packages will be there anywaay
<ogra> shoud be cheap to roll (inofficial at least) images
<lool> This is going to be across the ubuntu-mobile and ubuntu-arm efforts, I think these complement themselves well here
<lool> ogra: Well it's probably easy to enable them but what about testing and cdimage space?
<lool> I think we were stretched thing on testing for intrepid and fear it will worsen if we try to test armel images on multiple hardware
<ogra> cdimage doesnt cost much afaik, releases.u.c is the expensive part
<lool> And what about image build time?  is that a concern nowadays?
<ogra> well, thats why i said unofficial :)
<ogra> i doubt that it affects the builds ...
<lool> I don't like releasing more images if we don't QA them; the value is in the quality of the result IMHO
<ogra> it will affect the arm specific machines only
<StevenK> releases isn't expensive
<ogra> the heavy part is the livefs building
<lool> ogra: AIUI, we need to build the livecd-rootfs on the buildds
<ogra> StevenK, in terms of mirroring
<lool> And it takes a while on i386 due to the number of images (IIUC)
<ogra> we cant build arm livefs'es on the x86 buildds
<ogra> thats what i mean
<lool> StevenK: Not sure all mirrors can carry many more cd images
<ogra> livefs builds will only hog arm machines
<ogra> whoops, firefox crashed on me
<lool> ogra: Precisely, but if the arm machines are slower, there might be a concern that building all images take 3 days (I'm exagerating of course)
<lool> *exaggerating
<ogra> well, if they are not rebuildign the whole archive they should be fine i assume
<lool> Like if we need to reroll them like we had for the intrepid release
<ogra> we should probably discuss and define a testphase at uds for this
<ogra> helps also to get estimates for the normal images
<lool> what do you mean with testphase?
<ogra> build additional images for one or two alphas and measure times and loads
<ogra> and the time we actually need to invest
<lool> Oh ok
<lool> Sure
<ogra> and make a decision based on these numbers
<lool> Is this something we want an UDS session on?
<ogra> we should discuss it there, not necessarily something we need to book a session for imho
<lool> Hmm ok
<ogra> "dinner session"
<ogra> :)
<lool> Ah I have another unrelated topic
<lool> Just a reminder that next week will be december
<ogra> it think if we decide to have it and need to make plans we can schedule a session ad hoc
<lool> I think StevenK is the next secretary -- correct?
<ogra> yeah
<lool> StevenK: roger?
<ogra> i only have one set of ARs ahead :) phew ...
 * lool will go for February muahahah
<ogra> december will be mostly nothing
<lool> StevenK: Do you copy?
<ogra> UDS ... christmas break
<lool> I think we're losing StevenK
<StevenK> Hm?
<StevenK> I am?
<StevenK> Sorry
<lool> StevenK: I think so?  persia wanted January
<lool> (IIRC)
<StevenK> Sounds right to me
<ogra> StevenK, take it, its the easiest month :)
<lool> Okay I don't have anything to bring up today
<lool> +more
<ogra> me neither
<lool> Let's close at 13:31
<ogra> yeah
<lool> It's a 1331 time
<ogra> going once
<ogra> going twice ...
<ogra> gong ... adjourned ...
<ogra> #endmeeting
<lool> ogra: thanks for chairing
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:33.
<ogra> bah that was 1333
<StevenK> I suspect no meeting next week, or the week after?
 * ogra is travelling
<lool> Likely not indeed
<ogra> do we all come to fosscamp ?
<lool> StevenK: Problem is that while we'd have the time to, we're actually just before, just after, or in the middle of travel and also the times are crazy for west coast
<lool> We could move the irc meeting to friday and some decent local time?
<ogra> lets discuss with david at UDS :)
<ogra> next week looks like we're all in the air anyway
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
<Koon> Anyone around for the Java team meeting ?
<Koon> I guess not.
<Koon> OK, let's call the Java meeting off, for lack of participants. Next meeting will be Thu, Dec 4, 1400 UTC.
<Koon> (and happy Thanksgiving)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-29
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 02 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team
<nizarus> ping boredandblogging
<nizarus> ping boredandblogging
<nizarus> ping mdz
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-30
<nizarus> boredandblogging, here ?
<boredandblogging> nizarus: i replied to your email
<nizarus> boredandblogging, thx for your reply
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-24
<FFEMTcJ> mornin
<FFEMTcJ> There is supposed to be a meeting isnt there/
<FFEMTcJ> ?
<czajkowski> which kind ?
<FFEMTcJ> Asia Oceania
<lifeless> perhaps. let me check the wiki apge
<lifeless> indeed
<lifeless> persia: ping
<lifeless> elky: ping
<lifeless> amachu isn't online
<lifeless> let me send a mail
<FFEMTcJ> Sounds good
<lifeless> FFEMTcJ: sorry, noone seems to be around. next meeting will be in two weeks, but you're welcome to wait here for the rest of the hour just in case folk do show.
<FFEMTcJ> :-(
<FFEMTcJ> ok
<FFEMTcJ> thanks
<popey> or add yourself to one/both of the other membership boards and attend theirs if they are sooner
<FFEMTcJ> popey: ;-)
<leoquant> FFEMTcJ you did add yourself to the america's membership board aswell?
<FFEMTcJ> leoquant: they didnt get to me on the last meeting, so i was gonna try this one..
<leoquant> yep
<FFEMTcJ> dunno when it'll be tho
<leoquant> lifeless there aren't any reserves who could lead membership approvals ad-hoc?
<lifeless> leoquant: we're not quorate right now.
<FFEMTcJ> how many does that take, out of curiosity?
<leoquant> FFEMTcJ afaik 4
<FFEMTcJ> gotcha
<FFEMTcJ> lifeless: if you meet the # you need, please ping me..
 * popey volunteers if you need me lifeless 
<amachu> hi
<lifeless> amachu: hi there, meeting was an hour ago ;)
<amachu> lifeless: yes
<amachu> was there a quorum?
<lifeless> nope
<lifeless> there was Me! and that was all :(
<amachu> lifeless: ok. sorry for not making it. held up in a medical check up..
<amachu> fine let me make it remind all..
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * NCommander waves to ogra persia StevenK asac davidm  JamieBennett dyfet  GrueMaster 
<JamieBennett> I'm here
<plars> what? not at me?
 * ogra is here
 * GrueMaster snores loudly.
<NCommander> and plars
<plars> you hurt my feeling
<ogra> how about you do that call before the startmeeting in the future (like we ask every week since ages :P )
<NCommander> ogra, will do
<ogra> thanks :)
<ogra> since it can take a while to get everyone to show up...
<NCommander> plars, I apologize, by time I realize I forgot a name, you already responded :-/
<davidm> hello
<plars> NCommander: heh, was kidding
<asac> NCommander: hi
 * ogra wonders if GrueMaster is to jetlagged to show up :)
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091124
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091124
<asac> odd ... calendar disagrees with time
<plars> he responded earlier
<NCommander> asac, Google and daylight savings don't agree
<ogra> asac, yeah still DST issues i think
<ogra> though i got a proper reminder today ... didnt have that the last times
<asac> ok
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to report back on midori usability
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to report back on midori usability
<ogra> we did that at UDS
<ogra> done ...
<NCommander> ah
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> then there's one action item that didn't get answered
<NCommander> [topic] asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko
<asac> yes. so UI frontend is closed source as it seems
<ogra> obsolete after the UDS decision ?
<asac> so that makes it unsuitable
<ogra> i mean we decided on chrome already anyway
<asac> ogra: well. for touch screen we still need something
<NCommander> ogra, fair enough
<asac> but not urgently
<ogra> grab-n-drag for chrome then :)
<asac> hehe
<asac> maybe
<NCommander> Spec Review
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> [topic] Spec Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Review
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
 * ogra is still fiddling with all of his
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live  (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live  (NCommander)
<asac> i dont think we should go through all the specs here as most stuff is still drafting
<ogra> yeah
<asac> unless you have specs you really want to discuss now
<NCommander> If that's the case, I'm willing to skip specification review if everyone here agrees
<asac> so from my side: i reviewed a few that were set to review and dropped comments and set back to drafting
 * StevenK appears
<asac> if you disagree with the comments i made (usually just minor adjustments)
<asac> let me know ;)
<ogra> and we should switfch back to use LP for spec listing
<ogra> using a wikipage just duplicates work
<asac> two more things:
<NCommander> asac, I disagree you moved a spec to Drafting over work items alone
<asac> NCommander: work items usually reflect implementation details
<davidm> NCommander, the spec is not done without work items
<NCommander> davidm, it has work items
<ogra> all we need ?
<plars> that's all mine are waiting on, filling in the work items this morning then they are ready for review
<asac> NCommander: i would like the work items to be complete before saying spec is ready to go ;)
<asac> anyway so two more things:
<NCommander> asac, my issue is that I can't give any more specific than a general overview of what I intend to do until i get into it specifically and know what I need to do specifically
<asac> a. if you have specs that you want to impelement for lucid that are not accepted for lucid let me know
<ogra> like stacked squashfses ?
 * ogra doesnt get how we missed that one
<asac> b. if you have drafted a spec that were accepted for lucid but have no assignee lets discuss that off-meeting
<asac> we need to find an assignee
<asac> ogra: yes. we can check that after the meeting
<asac> NCommander: ok thats fine.
<ogra> yep
<ogra> NCommander, you can make that a work item ;)
<ogra> "research possibility of bleh"
<asac> NCommander: if you say you cannot split the work items up then there is not much you can do expect adding a work item like ogra said
<asac> except
<NCommander> asac, lets discuss this out of the meeting
<asac> sure.
<NCommander> I rather not run over this week
<asac> that was the idea
<asac> move on
<NCommander> Does anyone else have any spec-related discussion to bring up?
<NCommander> [topic] UNR Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR Status
<ogra> drop that ?
<plars> no reason to keep it now
<ogra> turn it into "image status" or something
<asac> i would think so, yes.
<NCommander> Right
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> [topic] Image status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Image status
<NCommander> :-)
 * ogra didnt test yet
<ogra> also how do we want to handle images this time
<NCommander> Image builds have failed consistantly on armel due to pulse and the kernel metapackage being broken
<ogra> last round we had one responsible person per arch
<ogra> not sure thats possible once we have more images
<ogra> which we are likely to get soon
<NCommander> ogra, probably best to have one person assigned to report status on a specifically SoC
<ogra> indeed
<NCommander> Lets cross that bridge when we get to it
<asac> how do image build failures get communicated?
 * ogra misses sponsoring on the agenda btw, that should have been added a month ago
<asac> e.g. are there FAIL mails send?
<asac> bugs?
<NCommander> ogra, I was told to remove it
<asac> NCommander: ?
<ogra> asac, the responsible person needs to research the details of the failure anyway, so i personally look at the logs every day for my responsibilities
<JamieBennett> asac: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/
<NCommander> asac, the live image buildsystem dumps logs on people.canonical.com
<asac> NCommander: where exactly?
<NCommander> asac, you can also get livefs build falure emails by asking cjwatson to put you on the list (I get them for xubuntu)
<ogra> NCommander, you were told to skip it for end of the release, but we decided to have a rolling topic for sponsoring
<ogra> the ftbfs list is for single packages only
<NCommander> asac, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/
<asac> NCommander: thx
<ogra> has not much influence on image building usually
<NCommander> I looked at the FTBFS at pulseaudio
<ogra> NCommander, hmm
<NCommander> Two major issues
<ogra> could you mention that in a channel somewhere in the future
 * ogra is just doing the same
<NCommander> First, -march=armv6 is forced on the commandline which breaks with compiler
<ogra> but if you are doing it already, i'll stop
<ogra> i think its just reverting my patch
<NCommander> (it tried to do armv6+thumb2, and fails miserably)
<ogra> just drop it completely
<NCommander> ogra, that doesn't fix the issue
<ogra> was only for karmic, as i stated in the changelog
<ogra> well, then fix it :)
<NCommander> The second problem is that pulse has handwritten ARM ASM as of the latest upstreams
<ogra> yes
<ogra> thats why the flag was added
<NCommander> It uses conditional instructions in a method thats incompatible with Thumb2
<ogra> anyway, we're off topic
<NCommander> ogra, I'm discussing on why image fails are breaking, I don't see that as off topic
<ogra> and the url above isnt the image build logs
<asac> hmm
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu/lucid/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu/lucid/
<ogra> thats for image builds
<NCommander> asac, ogra er, yeah, that's livfefs-rootfs (which is needed for live CD's): http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/
<NCommander> oh, ogra beat me to it
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/ is only livefs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/lucid/ is only livefs
<asac> thx
<ogra> the build system will re-use yesterdays livefs if the livefs build failed
<ogra> so it doesnt have any influence on the actual image build (apart from producing a broken image)
<NCommander> ogra, someone needs to fix pulse by either making the compiler not build it with Thumb2, or fix the handwritten ASM. Its three instructions in a macro, so it shouldn't be too difficult
<ogra> (which you can only find out through a boot/install test)
<ogra> NCommander, go ahead, all yours
<ogra> i have to do spec work for the rest of the week
<NCommander> ogra, I'm AFK after Thursday for two weeks.
<NCommander> I'll look at today, but if i don't crack it, someone else will have to take this up
<ogra> still, pulse is off topic, lets keep that for after the meeting
<asac> NCommander: maybe there is a legacy compiler flag or something?
<asac> anysway lets move that offline
<ogra> right
<JamieBennett> NCommander I can take a look tomorrow, send me the details of where you are in an email and I'll pick it up
<NCommander> asac, there is, haven't tested it yet.
<StevenK> asac: That isn't it
<NCommander> [topic] Sponsoring Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsoring Status
 * NCommander didn't sponsor anything during UDS, but planning to spend some time on the sponsoring queues before taking off
<ogra> i guess there is a lot of merges that can be sponsored
<StevenK> One I get over my jetlag enough to remember my passphrase, I will
<asac> who of the team has upload rights?
<ogra> but given that our main focus is specs this week we should probably skip it until we start active archive work again
<ogra> asac, depends... main or universe ?
<NCommander> asac, I'm MOTU. ogra, and StevenK are core dev
<asac> i guess me, StevenK: ogra: NCommander (universe?) ...
<asac> ok thanks
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> dyfet is on his way to motu ... and JamieBennett too i guess
<NCommander> asac, when i do sponsoring though, I'm usually in the backport queue since I'm the only one in ubuntu-backports versus the general queue however
<ogra> NCommander, just make sure its on the sponsoring list that davidm uses
<ogra> so we get it counted
<NCommander> ogra, it won't show up due to the way backports are counted.
<davidm> ogra, correct
<asac> ogra: what list is that? isnt that dholbach?
<ogra> i think so
<davidm> asac, yes dholbach generates the report
<asac> ok
<asac> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<asac> ok move on?
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<ogra> we should have something about the ARM specific seed/launcher/etc on the agenda in the future imho
<NCommander> ogra, I added ARM Image Status to the items list
<NCommander> I can boil that down to ARM Status
<ogra> image != apps
<ogra> we have our own app list now
<ogra> so we should track them
<NCommander> ogra, so Image Status, and ARM Status?
<plars> we're accumulating a decent backlog of arm related bugs
<ogra> imae status and "ARM apps list status" i'd say
<ogra> *image
<plars> many of them need triaging still, but there may be some easy ones to take care of there
<plars> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-armel if anyone has time to take a look, would be good to start whittling it down
<NCommander> plars,  a ton of them was the ubuntu-iso-tester being fixed
<ogra> or "ARM UNE seed status"
 * NCommander finally think he got all 100 or so emails from that.
<ogra> i'm not sure how much we care about jaunty bugs
<plars> NCommander: I'm looking at the actual list, not the bugmail
<ogra> davidm, ??
<plars> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-armel
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-armel
<plars> I moved several over yesterday, still a few that are probably arm specific and not subscribed yet.  I'll work on that today after blueprints
<asac> jaunty bugs feel kind of unimportant if they are confirmed to be fixed in karmic/lucid
<asac> of course depends on the severity and what our consumers expect
<ogra> right, but we have a bunch that are open in jaunty only ... should we close them ?
<davidm> ogra, unless it's been 18 months we care, if they are critical and are SRU candidates.
<NCommander> asac, my general rule is if they/re SRU worthly, we SRU it
<davidm> if not we don't care
<asac> sure. if we have a patch at hand thats a safe bet
 * ogra really doubts we'll find the time to even work on them
<persia> If they aren't critical, please leave them open as "known bugs", so that potential jaunty users can see the issues ahead of them.
<asac> right
<asac> or set them to won't fix if they are not SRU candidates?
<asac> either of that works for me
<ogra> i'd just like to see the list be smaller and show the ones we can actually put time in
<asac> ogra: that should be handled through "Importance"
<ogra> keeping all the jaunty bugs we wont fix seems to just crowd the list
<asac> High or higher -> we care
<asac> medium or below -> we usually dont care -> either open or set to won't fix teaching user about the SRU policy etc.
<persia> Um, please don't.  "Won't Fix" implies there is a reason they should not be fixed, as opposed to just that they aren't going to be fixed because nobody got around to it yet.
<persia> Just leave them as open tasks with nobody assigned, and if someone wants to do it, they can.
<asac> persia: i think won't fix is used to invalidate targetted bugs
<asac> buy the release team
<asac> dont think its completely off ... if you report a bug you will still see them as duplicate suggestions
<asac> s/buy/by/
<persia> asac: That and also to indicate that something will never be done (some gnome-desktop type bugs)
<NCommander> persia, the jaunty task can be set to Won't Fix
<ogra> right
<NCommander> But for a lot of packages, an SRU patch does apply with minimal work to jaunty
<persia> NCommander: I'm asking that it not be *unless* there is some reason it should not be fixed.
<asac> persia: so we are just talking about jaunty task ... not the main task
<NCommander> (if the issue existed in karmic)
<persia> Just because you're too lazy/busy to do it doesn't mean someone else won't do it.
<ogra> take bug 428263
<ubottu> Bug 428263 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/428263 is private
<ogra> thats unfixable in jaunty without backporting the whole of mono
<asac> if the bug is fixed in lucid and we decide we dont fix it in jaunty i dont see why we shouldnt set the jaunty task to wont fix
<ogra> hmm, bad example :P
<asac> like you confirmed, its used by release team to deny targeted bugs
<NCommander> ogra, of course, but there are other bugs which the same patch fixes it across multiple versions.
<ogra> there are also several gcc/toolchain related bugs that are automatically fixed with a newer toolchain
<persia> For that example, I agree "won't Fix" is the right answer, because it's just too invasive to fix it.
<persia> The difference being "bug which can't be fixed sensibly" vs. "bug which nobody got around to fixing, and nobody currently plans to fix".
<ogra> and we surely wont backport toolchains
<asac> persia: bugs with medium or below prio are "too invasive" by definition for an SRU
<asac> i suggested that high or critical bugs stay open in any case
<persia> asac: Interesting argument.  You're suggesting that any old task which isn't approved for SRU should inherently be "Won't Fix"?
<plars> so if it is disqualified as a target for SRU, then it should be won't fix, if it's a possibility (or even if there is doubt about whether or not it could be SRU) it should be kept open
<asac> persia: having an open task for jaunty usually means: "approved for SRU" .. unless its set to wont fix
<asac> remember only folks with bugcontrol can approve nominations
<asac> so accepting a nomination usually means: yes, this is a bug that should get fixed in the task (aka SRU)
<persia> OK.  That makes sense to me.  It's stuff which won't get fixed no matter how many people volunteer.
<plars> asac: you need more than that actually, I think you have to be in drivers
<persia> It's somewhere between those, but it's messy.  Let's ignore that for now.
<asac> persia: more or less yes. there might be exceptions if there is a patch at hand we can take as ride along. but we also dont want to encourage community folks to put their time in such bugs
<asac> so seting to wont fix would be a reasonable step for medium or below targetted bugs imo
<asac> anyway if we cannot get consent here lets discuss after meeting
<NCommander> Final topic I have
<persia> asac: I'm presuming we're discussing bugs already fixed in newer releases (where even a patch won't make it SRU-worthy).
<persia> I agree patches are useful, but they belong to current-dev-release unless it's an SRU bug.
<persia> Right.
<NCommander> I'm not going to be here for two weeks after this meeting. persia already agreed to run the meeting for the first week of Decemember
<NCommander> *December
<asac> persia: right that was what ogra ment afaict. bugs that are jaunty only but are not SRU candidates
<NCommander> I'm looking for a volunteer for next week
 * persia suggests using dates, to avoid confusion
<persia> 1 December needs a volunteer
<persia> 8 December is covered
<ogra> grmbl
<NCommander> No volunteers?
<asac> I can take that if noone else wants to do it ;)
<NCommander> asac, seems you get it by default
<ogra> sorry, line dropped ...
<asac> NCommander: where do you put the (now updated) "default" agenda items?
<asac> NCommander: right ;)
<NCommander> asac, I just edit the wiki page to reflect what we actually covered.
<asac> NCommander: link?
<NCommander> asac, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091124#preview
<NCommander> I usually post it at the start of the meeting.
<asac> (sorry, still ned to catch all resources ;))
<ogra> Sponsoring Statusemsv ?
<asac> NCommander: do we have a template for that?
<NCommander> asac, no
<ogra> we copy over last weeks and edit usually
<asac> yeah. template is similar easy ;)
<asac> but ok
<ogra> or NCommander does as our -meeting chair
<NCommander> asac, I'll create the pages in advance for you
<NCommander> you just need to filli n the blanks for next week
<asac> NCommander: rock ;) ... do you usually send out reminder mails?
<ogra> yes
<NCommander> asac, yes, to ubuntu-mobile
<ogra> to the mobile list
<NCommander> Minutes also go to the same place
<NCommander> (as I discovered during UDS)
<ogra> right, thats new
<NCommander> ogra, well, its more remembered versus new :-)
<ogra> you didnt do that in the past
<ogra> new for *you* :)
<asac> ok thanks
<NCommander> ogra, fair enough
<NCommander> anything else to cover?
<NCommander> if not, I'm going to close the meeting
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:50.
<asac> thanks all!
<ogra> thanks
 * GrueMaster returns to sleep.
 * kees looks around for DMB meeting
 * tseliot is waiting for the same reason
 * porthose is waiting for the same reason
<Keybuk> kees: who's driving?
<kees> Keybuk: not sure; the only agenda I can find is referenced from the TB agenda.
<Keybuk> DMB: compiz-related upload rights for Travis Watkins (approved by MC)
<Keybuk> DMB: core-dev reactivation for Daniel Chen
<Keybuk> DMB: core-dev application for Marc Deslauriers (approved by MC)
<Keybuk> DMB: Apply upload rights: Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<Keybuk> though I don't feel that two is in any way quorate
<kees> 'zactly
<pitti> hello
<kees> up to 3!  :)  heya pitti
<Keybuk> I think we can go with three
<pitti> sorry for being late
<Keybuk> any more is just greedy
<kees> heh
 * Keybuk recalls pitti said he'd chair <g>
<mdz> I am here, but I didn't know this meeting was happening
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:04. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Keybuk> mdz: well, _if_ you'd turned up at the last TB meeting ... <g>
<pitti> mdz: we agreed to it on last TB, and I sent it to u-d-a@
<mdz> it's not on my calendar, the platform calendar, the fridge calendar or any other that I look at
<mdz> pitti, bah, so I'm supposed to keep up with mailing lists during the second half of UDS? ;-)
<Keybuk> mdz: that sounded like volunteering an action to me <g>
<pitti> right, sorry about that; will poke people to add to fridge next time
<mdz> is this meant to be a recurring time slot?
<mdz> if so, it's not very good for me
<Keybuk> yes, afaik
<pitti> we didn't decide on that really
<pitti> just that we need one to process the current backlog
<Keybuk> it makes sense to have a regular slot
<Keybuk> so that if there is agenda, we cover it
<Keybuk> if there's nobody waiting, we simply don't hold the meeting
<pitti> [TOPIC] DMB meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMB meeting time
<tseliot> is there going to be another meeting on November 26?
<pitti> mdz: it's the same time slot as TB; should we have a different one more convenient for you then?
<kees> I would prefer it not be any earlier, but I'm otherwise generally open.
<pitti> tseliot: certainly not for DMB?
<pitti> for me, I'm also fine with the current slot; bit earlier/later WFM
<Keybuk> mdz: there's nothing on your calendar at this time?
<tseliot> pitti: ah, right, that will be for MC
<Keybuk> pitti: I suggest we move on
<pitti> *nod*
<Keybuk> let's keep the current time for now
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to mail DMB about meeting time discussion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to mail DMB about meeting time discussion
<Keybuk> on the simple basis that everyone else is here :p
<pitti> [TOPIC] compiz-related upload rights for Travis Watkins
<Keybuk> (who's not on holiday)
<MootBot> New Topic:  compiz-related upload rights for Travis Watkins
<pitti> hey Amaranth
<Keybuk> Amaranth: are you here?
<pitti> the MC recommended Amaranth for compiz-related upload rights
<Keybuk> he has also been re-added to MOTU
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TravisWatkins/MOTUDeveloperApplication has an additional endorsement by mvo
<Keybuk> the application simply says "compiz-related" packages, but does not provide a list of such packages
<Keybuk> oh
<Keybuk> yes it does
<pitti> see wiki page
<Keybuk> right where it says "List of compiz packages"
<pitti> personally, I know Amaranth from #ubuntu-desktop, he's quite active there nowadays
<Keybuk> indeed, and he's been one of the most active community packagers on those packages according to Launchpad
 * kees nods.
<Keybuk> I am happy to +1, even in his absence
<pitti> kees, Keybuk: does either of you have particular questions to him?
<kees> +1 on the basis of active, good, endorsed work on this focused set of packages.
 * pitti takes that as a "no"
<kees> I don't.  :)
<Keybuk> this seems a simple matter of giving someone permission to upload without their sponsor
<Keybuk> and their sponsor has explicitly given their endorsement
<pitti> +1 from me as well, based on previous work and personal experience
<Keybuk> pitti: do you know how to do the LP magic?
<pitti> [AGREED] compiz-related upload rights for Travis Watkins
<MootBot> AGREED received:  compiz-related upload rights for Travis Watkins
<pitti> Keybuk: unfortunately no; cjwatson still has an action item for documenting this
<pitti> do you?
<Keybuk> ok, then cjwatson gets the actions for doing it
<Keybuk> nope
<pitti> [ACTION] cjwatson to enable upload privileges for Amaranth for list of packages in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TravisWatkins/MOTUDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to enable upload privileges for Amaranth for list of packages in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TravisWatkins/MOTUDeveloperApplication
<kees> (revision 3)
<pitti> [TOPIC] core-dev reactivation for Daniel Chen
<MootBot> New Topic:  core-dev reactivation for Daniel Chen
 * pitti pinged dtchen
<pitti> he applied directly to DMB
<pitti> does anyone want to ask him questions, and thus shuold we wait for him?
 * pitti doesn't, he has enough recent experience with him
<kees> I'd like to know the history about how/why core-dev was removed for dtchen, but it wouldn't stop a vote from me.
<geser> didn't dtchen simply expire?
<Keybuk> (just looking that up)
<pitti> (AFAIK it was a matter of "time out" due to lack of time)
<kees> pitti: yeah, that's my vague memory as well.
<Keybuk> right, in which case we should interview to find out more
<pitti> Keybuk: oh, is there logged history?
<Keybuk> pitti: no
<Keybuk> in these cases, we've talked to the candidate to ask for more information
<Keybuk> even if it's just "ran out of time, but have some now"
<pitti> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-lib/+changelog https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+changelog https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+changelog
<pitti> ok, sounds like we should postpone to the next meeting and explicitly invite him then
<Keybuk> pitti: agree
<kees> yeah, I'd like to know a little more about his plans for upstream coordination.
<pitti> [ACTION] pitti to invite dtchen for next DMB meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to invite dtchen for next DMB meeting
<pitti> [TOPIC] core-dev application for Marc Deslauriers
<MootBot> New Topic:  core-dev application for Marc Deslauriers
<pitti> approved by MC
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcDeslauriers/CoreDevApplication
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2009-October/002266.html
<pitti> mdeslaur: hi
<mdeslaur> hi everyone :)
<Keybuk> \o/
<Keybuk> mdeslaur: you're currently a MOTU and one of the Ubuntu Security Team engineers
<Keybuk> what kinds of things do you intend to do in main?
<mdeslaur> Upload rights to main would permit me to fix security issues in the dev release, and also, there's proactive security stuff that I would like to do
<mdeslaur> I fix a lot of bugs in AppArmor user-space
<mdeslaur> and would like to further apparmor profile development work
<mdeslaur> in the future, I would like to start working on authentication also
<mdeslaur> of course, I also have interests in other things that are not security related
<mdeslaur> bug fixing, for example
<pitti> mdeslaur: how many main packages do you get sponsored on average?
<mdeslaur> I'm guessing around 30-40 uploads per cycle, although I could look it up
<mdeslaur> and this is on different packages
<pitti> I guess most of these are sponsored by kees/jdstrand?
<mdeslaur> kees, jdstrand, zul, and you probably sponsored a couple
<pitti> I remember a few, yes
 * nixternal looks in
<pitti> mdeslaur: it's a week before feature freeze, and there's a major new apparmor version released upstream which you would like to get because of some new feature; what are your next steps?
<zul> yeah I have sponsored a few
<mdeslaur> pitti: I would review the changes to make sure the new version wouldn't introduce regressions in our dev release, I would make sure Debian has it as well so we don't have problems when they do get it. I would test it in a VM to make sure nothing seems to break, and would merge it from debian.
<mdeslaur> pitti: does that answer what you were looking for?
<pitti> mdeslaur: please also mention it in your team'srrelease report for "planned major changes", so that the release team gets aware of it and has  it in mind when looking at regression bug reports
<mdeslaur> pitti: sounds good, will do
<kees> I don't have any questions; I'm already a fan of mdeslaur's careful work.  :)
<pitti> I'm done, too
<pitti> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> pitti: I'm done
<pitti> [VOTE] adding Marc Deslauriers to core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  adding Marc Deslauriers to core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<kees> big +1 from me, based on daily experience of his great work.
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<kees> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from kees. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pitti> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<pitti> mdeslaur: congratulations, and thanks for your great work!
<mdeslaur> cool! thanks guys!
 * mdeslaur dances around the room and high-fives his cat
<pitti> [TOPIC] DMB: Apply upload rights: Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMB: Apply upload rights: Charlie Smotherman (porthose)
<porthose> hello DMB :)
<pitti> this isn't actually DMB matter, we just need to apply the ACL
<Keybuk> the MC unanimously recommends Charlie Smotherman for upload rights for
<Keybuk> Quickplay, Upnp-Inspector and Pylirc.
<Keybuk> action -> cjwatson?
<pitti> actually, I think I figured it out
<kees> sounds right
<pitti> I'll try to apply the ACLs for porthose and Amaranth myself, and if that fails, ask cjwatson
<pitti> porthose: hello!
<porthose> pitti, hi
<pitti> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<pitti> 10 seconds
<Keybuk> none :)
<pitti> [TOPIC] chair for next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  chair for next meeting
<Keybuk> should match TB chair
<kees> \o
<pitti> done
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<kees> thanks!
<pitti> I'll follow up to the application mails
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:43.
<geser> does the DMB have a plan/schedule for the DMB/MC merging? or is this TB area?
<pitti> geser: TBH, I'd wait with that until cjwatson and the other DMB members are back
<pitti> i. e. in two weeks; would that be ok for you?
 * nixternal notes that it is fine with him
<geser> sure
<nixternal> dholbach: ^^
<dholbach> sounds good - we could probably try figuring out all the open issues via email already?
<pitti> Keybuk: yep, edit_acl.py bends to my will; actually quite easy for per-package
<pitti> $ edit_acl.py -p cjsmo -s pylirc add
<pitti> I just couldn't figure it out for packagesets
<Keybuk> pitti: cool
<Keybuk> geser: I think we need a whole town hall thing for that
<Keybuk> there's a lot of opinions
<nixternal> opinions are like as...well you know :D
<bjf> Roll Call
 * manjo here 
 * cking is here
 * ogasawara waves
 * gnarl thinks 1min to early
 * manjo brb 
 * rtg waves
 * apw arrives
 * sconklin is here
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> Settle in folks, I'm expecting this one to be a little longer than usual as we work our way through a new agenda
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
 * manjo back
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidDetail
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidDetail
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogasawara> Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (11 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara> Release Targeted Bugs (50 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<ogasawara>  * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
<bjf> any comments on any of that?
<apw> no much in the way of bugs on lucid, as expected
<ogasawara> yup, still early in the cycle so nothing too exciting
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
<apw> Ok as those who were at UDS are aware we have chosen 2.6.32 as our kerenl
<apw> we still need to announce it formally on ubuntu-devel which is going to occur this week
<apw> ..
<bjf> does '..' mean your done or there is more to follow?
<apw> done
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara> Thanks to apw, summary of work items listed in the whiteboard at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara> I'll get this blueprint/spec cleaned up and drafted for approval.
<ogasawara> bjf: done
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<apw> ogasawara, yep, they are my take on the items, please clean them up and update the whiteboard
<apw> and the status page will magically update
<apw> the review is done, we just need to close out updateing the docs
<apw> and its then done
<gnarl> bjf, Beside of the new policy being accepted not much update yet
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> just been through the list of things to update and enumerated them
<apw> we'll start the process of pulling them up to date shortly
<apw> ..
<gnarl> apw, And we get together about patch review?
<apw> gnarl, ack we have that on the list too ... forgot... its on the task list
<gnarl> ack
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> ok thats mostly done
<apw> we identified some anomles and those need tracking and applying
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<sconklin> Andy has updtaed the docs.
<sconklin> There is one issue that worries me, and I'll be investigating
<apw> we have a couple of work items on that one, one easy the other needs some work
<apw> ..
<sconklin> The nouveau driver devels ask thatthe entire drm stack from nouveau be brought in with the driver
<sconklin> and this may break other drivers, notably intel
<sconklin> but it's too early to know much
<apw> i hope that noone else is doing that
<apw> we'll have to investigate what is in fedora
<sconklin> I'm going to see what fedora did and where they pulled from
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<manjo> the pm-utils package was fixed by the foundations team
<manjo> to rotate logs
<manjo> I need to start working on adding hooks
<manjo> to let apport report the frequency of suspend/resume failure
<manjo> I need to set some time aside with ogasawara  and learn the triage scripts
<manjo> so that I can start looking in to common failure points
<manjo> in the bugs
<ogasawara> manjo: ack, I've got a few ideas of scripts for you to use
<apw> manjo, can you try and add those as tasks to your blueprint whiteboard if they are not already there
<manjo> ogasawara, great... I believe we can do it after thanks giving hols
<manjo> apw, ack
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> The plan is to pull in the version being pushed upstream on the next push, I have been working on the audit refactor to address Eric Paris's NAK, and then I have some new feedback from Tetsuo to address.
<apw> jjohansen, when are you thinking you'll have the next upstream push ready?
<jjohansen> I also need to update the spec a bit more
<jjohansen> apw: it should happen this week
<apw> cool.  if you can publish that as a branch too (against mainline) then i can pull it into lucid
<jjohansen> will do
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<rtg> I don't have much to do on this for awhile.
<rtg> ..
<bjf> rtg, should we pull it from the agenda? It will keep coming up every week.
<apw> the only thing that i see needing doing was documenting
<rtg> yep, until it becomes more topical
<bjf> rtg, ack
<apw> what we said we would be supporting, then its dead till M
<bjf> [ACTION] Pull this topic from the agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pull this topic from the agenda
<rtg> apw, well, the day after Lucid releases we have to get started on it
<apw> yeha thats what i mean, its 'we will do this for M' and wait for M to open
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<apw> there are two bits here, there is the work csurbhi is looking at for initramfs
<apw> and there are some other patches i have under test ...
<csurbhi> yes, i am working into the rootfs population
<manjo> apw, any change for server kernels ?
<apw> we're way over budget still, but we have some avenues
<csurbhi> whether this could be done in parallel right now
<jjohansen> and pulling apparmor out of the initramfs
<apw> yep that too
<jjohansen> current loading is .4 sec
 * apw adds this as a task on the boot speed thing
<apw> and marks it in-progress
<jjohansen> so pulling AA is 1/4 of what we need to hit our target
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<apw> jjohansen, ack thats awsome
<bjf> I've been making contacts upstream, setting expectations w.r.t. daily builds, etc.
<bjf> I'm off this week and will get serious about it first then next.
<bjf> ..
<apw> bjf i'll put together an audio task list
<apw> as a seed for you, you can update the file later when you have full lists
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<manjo> bjf, I don't see amitk
<cking> run out of power?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<manjo> probably gone to by more batteries
<jjohansen> I pulled down the latest version of the patches against 2.6.32 this morning and I am working through the diffs (50+ patches), I'll post a pull request when I am done with it
<jjohansen> amitk was meeting with a contractor
<apw> jjohansen, i asume we have a few ec2 tasks
<apw> perhaps they need their own list ?
<jjohansen> couldn't hurt
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Misc. (apw, all?)
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidMisc
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Misc. (apw, all?)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidMisc
<apw> mostly these are arm things
<apw> and little things, like checking if we have updated trees, nothing urgent or to report
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> We have just rebased to 2.6.32-rc8 and all is building
<apw> we are waiting on an -ec2 kernel else we are replete with kernels
<apw> otherwise its quiet, its early in the cycle
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> Dapper:   2.6.15-55.80 (security)
<smb> Hardy:    2.6.24-25.63 (security)
<smb> Intrepid: 2.6.27-15.43 (security)
<smb> Jaunty:   2.6.28-16.57 (updates)
<smb> Karmic:   2.6.31-15.50 (updates)
<smb> Security update in progress. After that, the pending stable update for
<smb> Karmic is supposed to go to proposed.
<gnarl> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Current regression stats:
<ogasawara>  * regression-potential bugs: 39 (up 3) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<ogasawara>  * regression-release bugs: 53 (up 11)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release
<ogasawara>  * regression-update bugs: 12 (up 3)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update
<ogasawara>  * regression-proposed: 2 (up 2) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed
<ogasawara> I'm still reviewing regression-potential bugs to see if they should be moved to regression-release or if they've been resolved.
<gnarl> Did those in proposed get there newly?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> gnarl: I think one is not a real regression-propose bug (but I only had a quick glance)
<apw> don't think we've had a bug day for a bit with UDS et al
<ogasawara> We'll start resuming Kernel Bug Days in two weeks (ie Tues Dec 8).  I'll send email.
<gnarl> ogasawara, Well, now its not anymore... :-/
<manjo> ogasawara, ?
<ogasawara> gnarl: the other is a regression-proposed for lucid
<gnarl> Wouldn't that be potential?
<manjo> ogasawara, I understood we will have no more bug days ...
<ogasawara> gnarl: right, I believe it should be s/regression-proposed/regression-potential/
<ogasawara> manjo: we're still going to have bugs days, just not in the format where each developer is assigned a specific list
<gnarl> ogasawara, ok ack
<manjo> ok
 * ogasawara cleans both bugs up to avoid further confusion
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> ..
<manjo> none here
<bjf> I like the '..' to indicate done and would like everyone to start using it
<gnarl> â¦
<apw> just to say we are starting to use the new burndown stuff
<manjo> ..
<apw> so the contents of the status page is all generated now
<apw> you should be adding sensible tasks to the whiteboard of your blueprints
<apw> and those will propogate to the status as magic
<apw> pitti will be sending out some information later
<apw> but the short of it is
<apw> Status:
<apw> <text about what and where you are in broad brush>
<apw> Work Items:
<apw> <items>:<status>
<apw> and it'll all work
<sconklin> is there a way we can show that we have taken a task?
<apw> status is TODO, DONE, INPROGRESS
<apw> move it inprogress i guess
<apw> we may need to get more clever later, but generally tasks on a blueprint are the owners unless otherwise mentioned
<apw> though i do have a bunch on other peoples
<apw> you can add (LOGIN) to the end of the description, ie before the :INPROGRESS
<apw> anyone has any questions do ping me in irc
<cking> apw, perhaps this needs documenting in a wiki page somewhere
<bjf> apw, after I see an example or two, i'll manage
<apw> yep there is meant to be docs from pitti already, should have them this week
<sconklin> done for the kernel startup time whiteboard
<bjf> sounds like that's all...
<bjf> going once
<gnarl> Â²
 * manjo 3 happy thanksgiving to all 
<bjf> going twice
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:37.
<cking> thanks bjf
<ogasawara> thanks bjf, especially since you're supposed to be on holiday today
<apw> bjf, yeah you should have said before the meeting not after!
<bjf> apw, just an hour (40 minutes) not a problem
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-25
<FFEMTcJ> popey: ping
<popey> FFEMTcJ: pong
<FFEMTcJ> popey: can I PM?
<Daviey> \o
<soren> o/
<ScottK> Oh, right.
 * ScottK can attend server team meetings again.
<ScottK> \o
<ttx> o/
<Daviey> woot.
 * mathiaz waves
<chuck_> geez its early for a meeting
<mdz> good morning
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> kirkland, smoser, ping
<mdz> Dustin said he would be here
<mdz> I think smoser may be on holiday
 * nijaba waves
<mdz> let's get started
<mdz> [topic] Review ACTION points from previous meeting (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting (ttx)
 * ttx scrambles the list
<ttx> kirkland to add a recipe covering virsh to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager: Done
<mdz> I wasn't able to attend the previous meeting
<ttx> hm
 * ttx tries again
<ttx> ACTION: nurmi to help investigate/validate/fix bugs 455625, 460085 and 461156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in euca2ools "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<ttx> nurmi is not around
<ttx> I didn't have time to check progress on those bugs yet
<mdz> 455625 has been marked invalid upstream
<mdz> 461156 is Fix Committed upstream
<mdz> 460085 is Fix Committed in Ubuntu
<ttx> 460085 still needs a fix on eucalyptus side
<mdz> so it looks like they have all been dealt with upstream
<mdz> hmm, ok
<mdz> I didn't look at that one
<ttx> I'll look into that last one before tomorrow
 * stgraber waves
<jmdault> o/
<ttx> to be sure to communicate to Eucalyptus anything we might be missing.
<ttx> [ACTION] ttx to review status of bugs  455625, 460085 and 461156 for any missing info
<mathiaz> ttx: does that mean we're preparing another SRU for UEC in karmic?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in euca2ools "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<ttx> beh, can't action :)
<mdz> [ACTION] ttx to review status of bugs  455625, 460085 and 461156 for any missing info
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to review status of bugs  455625, 460085 and 461156 for any missing info
<ttx> mathiaz: yes. The memory leak and the userdata are still on the list
<mdz> mathiaz, we can discuss that on tomorrow's conf call
<mdz> any other actions from last time?
<ttx> yes
<ttx> ACTION: mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<mathiaz> mdz: I'm almost done on generating the list of easy merges for publication
<mathiaz> I've finally figured out how to do that with bzr and package branches
<mdz> [action]  mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<MootBot> ACTION received:   mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<ttx> that's all.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [topic] Check blueprint status and progress for the week (mdz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check blueprint status and progress for the week (mdz)
<kirkland> ttx: i have covered Virsh and Virt-Manager in the documentation
<mdz> the list I'm using for this is:
<mdz> [link] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=server-lucid-
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=server-lucid-
<ttx> kirkland: yes, that action was already completed last meeting
<kirkland> mdz: i'm here now
<ttx> kirkland: bringing it up was a cut/apste error, sorry about that
<mdz> this is not ideal, because it has some false positives (desktop and foundations blueprints)
<mdz> but it has all of ours as well
<mdz> if anyone knows a better way to get this out of LP, let me know
<mdz> in my, er, spare time, I'm working on the blueprints API ;-)
<ttx> also the assignee can be different from the drafter, so you should check https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~YOURNAMEHERE/+specs?role=drafter
<mdz> all of the server-lucid-* blueprints on that list should be moved into Drafting status
<mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~YOURNAMEHERE/+specs?role=drafter&searchtext=server-lucid-
<mathiaz> ^^ this is even better :)
<ttx> s/check/cross-check/
<mdz> ttx, there is some way to do that with a universal URL, /+me or something
<ttx> right
<mdz> mathiaz, yes
<mdz> many of them are still New or Discussion, so please update yours
<mdz> kirkland, I reviewed what you submitted and sent feedback
<mdz> the others, I'm waiting for you to tell me they're ready for review
<mdz> you can do that by setting them to Review status when you're ready
<mdz> I've sent email explaining what I'm looking for in the completed blueprints
<kirkland> mdz: thank you
<kirkland> mdz: i'm fixing up now
<mdz> all of them should be completed by the end of this week
<ttx> smoser: o/
<kirkland> mdz: i clearly "missed" on the user stories ... do you have a favorite blueprint that has intriguing user stories?
<mdz> does anyone feel they have too much to finish in that time?
<zul> not I
<soren> Hmm..
<soren> I think I'll manage.
<ttx> mdz: I do, but we already discussed that.
<mdz> kirkland, I don't have a blueprint to hand, but you can look at the stories on the requirements pages
<mdz> I mentioned them in the email
<kirkland> ttx: mdz: I see that I'm the drafter of UEC-testing, mathiaz is the assignee ... I didn't realize I was responsible for drafting that one until just now
<mdz> where there is an internal requirement behind the blueprint, I've already written the user stories for you
<mdz> as a means of capturing the requirement
<kirkland> mdz: right, I thought i followed that closely enough;  i'll try again
<kirkland> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-uec-testing
<mdz> there are also loads of articles to be found with google about how to write user stories
<mdz> kirkland, right, I believe that's because mathiaz couldn't be in the session, but you were
<mathiaz> kirkland: yes - I wasn't in the session dealing with UEC testing
<mdz> if you can't get it done, now is the time to mention it, because we could find someone else who was there
<mdz> I know you're off the rest of the week
<kirkland> mdz: i was planning on fixing up the 2 I did write, writing up my year-end-review results, and enjoying the rest of my day off
<mdz> who else was in the UEC testing session on Friday?
<ttx> mdz: I was, I think soren was as well
<mdz> this is on the critical path, so it still needs to be done this week
<mdz> soren, can you take it?
<kirkland> mdz: ttx: I'll do it
<mdz> soren, ayt?
<mdz> kirkland, OK, you can negotiate with soren separately if you find you need to hand it off
<mdz> any other questions or considerations regarding blueprints?
<mdz> otherwise, I'll expect everything to be ready for review first thing Monday morning
<mdz> [topic] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (mdz)
<nijaba> mdz: should "community" blueprient be following the same process as well?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (mdz)
<soren> Sorry, someone was at the door..
 * soren catches up
<mdz> nijaba, all blueprints should follow the same process
<nijaba> mdz: I know ScottK and maybe ivoks had a few
<mdz> [link] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (mdz)
<MootBot> LINK received:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (mdz)
<soren> Um... Yeah, I think I was in the UEC testing session. Think.
<mdz> nothing assigned to the team at the moment
<mdz> there are a bunch of bugs there which are still targeted to Karmic
<mdz> looks like they're all Eucalyptus related
<mdz> so I assume those are SRU candidates, as opposed to 9.10-targeted bugs which slipped
<mdz> probably they should be targeted for LL as well, but I don't think it's too important
<ScottK> What's the link to the process we're supposed to be using for spec tasks?
<ttx> some of those aren't candidates for SRUs -- I'll clean up
<ttx> hmm, they show up wrongly in the list... they are wontfix for karmic
<mdz> ScottK, do you mean the work items?
<mdz> ttx, ah, ok
<ScottK> mdz: Yes.
<ttx> bug 438631 and bug 455816
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 438631 in eucalyptus "eucalyptus-nc needs an upstart job" [Wishlist,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/438631
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455816 in eucalyptus "When installing a UEC cluster, the prompt for the private interface is displayed after the "Installation complete" dialog" [Medium,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455816
<ScottK> I heard something about using bugs for burndown charts, but haven't seen specifics on how this process is supposed to work.
<mdz> ScottK, it's working the same way as in karmic for the moment, I don't think the bugs-as-work-items bit is completed yet
<ScottK> mdz: OK.  Thanks.
<mdz> i.e. the work items go in the status whiteboard
<soren> I had never heard of this until Rick Spencer demoed it at UDS. This was in widespread use in Karmic?
<mdz> nothing else jumps out at me from the bug list
<ttx> soren: the desktop team was using it
<kirkland> mdz: i'm also trying to verify the eucalyptus SRU
<soren> ttx: Ok.
<mdz> and the mobile team has adopted it as well
<mathiaz> soren: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto gives an overview of this process
<mdz> mathiaz, ah, thanks, I was trying to find that link
<kirkland> I reinstalled my UEC yesterday;  i have some strange behavior that I emailed nurmi about; i'm not ready to approve/decline the SRU package yet, though.
<mdz> [topic] work item tracking
<MootBot> New Topic:  work item tracking
<kirkland> mathiaz: ^
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<soren> mathiaz: Neat, thanks.
<mdz> any other questions about work items?
<mathiaz> mdz: some work items can't be defined in some of my blueprints
<mathiaz> mdz: example: write MIR for the list of agreed packages
<mathiaz> mdz: which depends on agreeing on the list of packages first
<mdz> mathiaz, I suggest creating work items for each of the proposed changes
<mathiaz> mdz: that means that the list of work items will probably evolve over time
<ttx> mathiaz: and adding it later will make it look like feature creep
<ScottK> mathiaz: The list will evolve over time.
<mathiaz> mdz: are we trying to get all work items defined now?
<mdz> e.g. "discuss moving foobar to universe" would be one work item, and "move foobar to universe (if agreed)" would be a second work item
<mdz> mathiaz, yes, as closely as we can estimate up front
<ScottK> Last cycle on desktop stuff where I used this the tasks started out a few high level ones and got broken into more detail over time.
<mdz> if some of them can be skipped, it's easy to skip them later, but we don't want to forget any
<mathiaz> mdz: hm - ok. Does this mean there can be 20+ more work items in one blueprint?
<mdz> it is possible to add them later, but usually this indicates that work was overlooked
<mdz> mathiaz, you can add as many as you like, up to whatever the limit is for the status whiteboard
<mdz> it's definitely >20
<mathiaz> mdz: well - in this situation is that more investigation needs to be conducted in order to define more WI
<mdz> mathiaz, if there are natural groupings, you could group them
<ttx> mathiaz: I'd do 4 sets
<mdz> e.g. discuss the package changes related to backup, then make the agreed changes for those packages
<mdz> but it needs to be more than one work item, because even having the discussion will take more than 1-2 days
<ttx> mathiaz: obvious, potentially harmful, etc
<ttx> then have one WI to delimitate the sets
<mathiaz> mdz: ok
<ttx> and discuss / MIR for each set ?
<mdz> we'll learn from this as we go, since this is our first time through this process
<mdz> find out what works best, and adopt that for next time
<ttx> mdz: ideally work items could be weigthed
<mathiaz> ttx: well - not knowing how many packages will be considered makes it hard to define the number of set
<mdz> the most important thing is that the list is at approximately the right level of granularity, so that we make steady progress through the list
<mdz> it will never be perfect
<ttx> mathiaz: it's still slightly more accurate than defining nothing.
 * mathiaz agrees
<ttx> that's how I did it for the java dependencies
<mdz> ttx, if you can't think of any other way, you can split them up arbitrarily
<ttx> last cycle
<mdz> e.g. if something is probably 4 days work, you could do "implement foo #1", "implement foo #2", etc.
<mdz> but we should only do that as a last resort
<ttx> mdz: yes.
<mdz> mathiaz, remember, it just needs to fit into a 1-2 day chunk of work
<mdz> they don't all need to be exactly the same size
 * mathiaz nods
<mathiaz> I'll update the list of work items with your suggestions
<mdz> the errors should average out
<mdz> i.e. we're just as likely to overestimate as to underestimate, we hope :-)
<mdz> ok, anything else on this topic?
<mdz> [topic] Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<kirkland> (whoops)
<mathiaz> there is one bug nominated for hardy
<mathiaz> bug 426813
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 426813 in net-snmp "snmpd dies after requests with snmpwalk" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/426813
<mdz> kirkland, whoops?
<kirkland> mdz: i was discussing the Eucalyptus SRU earlier
<mdz> kirkland, that's OK
<mathiaz> zul: ttx: seems like a good candidate for an SRU?
<kirkland> mdz: I see that conversation belongs here
<zul> mathiaz: looking
<zul> mathiaz:yep
<ttx> mathiaz: yes
<zul> mathiaz: im going to start tagging them so they are easily searchable in launchpad
<mathiaz> bug accepted for hardy
<mathiaz> zul: well you can use LP searches
<mathiaz> zul: or do you wanna tag the sru-potential?
<mathiaz> zul: in which case they should just be nominated
<zul> mathiaz: yes that what I was thinking
<mdz> mathiaz, zul, how would that be different from a nomination?
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2009-11-16.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2009-11-16.html
<mathiaz> ^^ this is last week fixed released bugs - anything worth in there?
<mdz> mathiaz, that list looks a week old
<mathiaz> mdz: yes - that was during UDS
<mathiaz> mdz: we haven't processed it yet
<zul> mdz: when its fixed in lucid then we can just close it and add a tag like "sru-potential" and talk about it during the weekly meetings
<mathiaz> mdz: as we hadn't a meeting last week
<mathiaz> zul: nominating them for the proper the release would do the same thing
<mathiaz> zul: as we're reviewing the list of nominated bugs during the meeting
<zul> mathiaz: okie dokie
<mathiaz> ok - so anything SRU worth on http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2009-11-16.html?
<mdz> mathiaz, so we should have 2 weeks worth of bugs, no?
<ScottK> For Universe, nxvl is working on some courier stuff that will be SRU worthy once it's resolved and there is a havp fix in work that should also qualify.  Both packages are currently very broken in Karmic.
<mathiaz> mdz: yes - 2 weeks of bugs -> 2 lists
<zul> mathiaz, #479955 might be
<mdz> mathiaz, ah, ok
<mathiaz> bug 479955
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 479955 in samba "winbind authentication fails after karmic upgrade" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/479955
<mathiaz> ScottK: are the bugs nominated/accepted for karmic?
<zul> actually its already been nominated
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think not yet, but they are both still unfixed in Lucid.
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok - so lucid first :)
<ScottK> For havp the patch is still being reviewed and last I heard nxvl was beating he head against the wall over courier.
<ScottK> Yes
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on to the second list:
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2009-11-23.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.2009-11-23.html
<mathiaz> anything SRU worth on this one^^?
<zul> the ucf dbconfig-common is pretty easy to fix and probably SRUable
<zul> bug 424653
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 424653 in dbconfig-common "I cant desintall phpmyadmin completle the database" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/424653
<zul> should be fixed for jaunty at least
<mathiaz> zul: well - it doesn't seem too critical for jaunty now
<mathiaz> ttx: ^?
<mathiaz> anything SRU worth on the two lists above?
<zul> im not exactly sure how to reproduce it though
<ttx> mathiaz: yes, I'd say that's not important enough
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> what the progress on these bugs?
<mathiaz> ^^
<mathiaz> I think I need to add how long the bug has been assigned to this table
<mathiaz> to measure whether things get stalled (which is the goal of this list)
<mathiaz> I don't know I can extract the date of assignement from LP though
<zul> either in  -proposed or in -updates or waiting for users to test
<mathiaz> zul: all of them?
<mdz> ok, we're almost out of time, can we close the SRU topic?
<mathiaz> which reminds me that I should add the status of the bug as well
<mathiaz> mdz: yes
<mdz> [topic] Meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting time
<mdz> A few people mentioned this meeting time was less than ideal for them
<mdz> last I checked, Maria was working on finding a better time, and I asked her to work directly with you on it
<mdz> what was the outcome?
<mdz> (she's on holiday right now, so I can't ask her)
<ScottK> It's way better for me since I'm generally unavailable on Tuesdays.
<mathiaz> mdz: I haven't heard of maria on this topic
<mdz> kirkland, I believe you were one of the people with an objection
<mdz> there was an email thread at the end of October
<kirkland> mdz: yes, this time is very bad for me
<kirkland> mdz: i've spoken with maria, filled out the survey again
<kirkland> mdz: the day of the week is fine; it's the hour that's a problem
<kirkland> mdz: one hour later would solve my conflict
<mdz> kirkland, please work with maria to find a better time
<mdz> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<kirkland> mdz: okay
<ScottK> Who was working on the SpamAssassin update?
<ScottK> This is, I think, a very important topic for Lucid and I'd like to make sure we track it.
<mathiaz> ScottK: IIRC Daviey investigated it
<mathiaz> ScottK: I don't know the the outcome of the session though
<ScottK> It sounded like we'll want to update, but we need to make sure of this.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Could we make sure this gets added to something as a work item so it doesn't get dropped.
<mathiaz> ScottK: that should be documented in the blueprint
<ScottK> mathiaz: What blueprint?
<mathiaz> ScottK: and the whiteboard of the blueprint (mail-server stack?) updated
<ScottK> I don't think we have one explicitly for this.
<ScottK> mail-server-stack was a Karmic blueprint.
<ScottK> The one I'm working on is about package integration.
<mathiaz> ScottK: well - if there is work to be done in Lucid and you'd want it to be tracked, I'd suggest to file a blueprint
<mathiaz> ScottK: and create the necessary work items in the whiteboard
<mdz> agreed
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think it's important, but I really don't have time to deal with it.  It's in Main.  Please assign someone to deal with it then.
<mathiaz> ScottK: could the spamassassin be added to the mail-related blueprint you're working on?
<ScottK> mathiaz: It could if someone is going to do the work.
<mathiaz> ScottK: right - documenting what needs to be done will make it easier for someone to pick it up later
<ScottK> I don't mind having it in there for tracking, but I really don't have time to develop a relationship with another upstream (and that's what I think this will take)
<mathiaz> ScottK: defining a work item doesn't mean *you* need to do it
<ScottK> That's fine then.
<mdz> ok, we're over time, can we adjourn?
<mdz> thanks, all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:06.
 * mvo looks around
 * robbiew waves
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * ScottK waves.
 * robbiew had zero time for an agenda this week....sorry :/
<robbiew> had this whole UDS thing last week
<robbiew> plus Canonical seems to think I need to review my employees every 6 months :P
<robbiew> Keybuk: slangasek: around?
<ScottK> robbiew: It'd be nice we could add libdb to the release coordination items with Debian and someone look into that.  The fewer versions we bring into the LTS the better.
<cjwatson> Keybuk was arguing about udev on #ubuntu-devel earlier :) I think slangasek is on leave
<robbiew> ah...right
<lool> he is
<robbiew> lol
<cjwatson> we're in sync on db right now, but it wouldn't hurt to know about future planned transitions
<ScottK> robbiew: For some value of someone != me.
<robbiew> heh
<Keybuk> robbiew: yup
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lucid blueprints/specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid blueprints/specs
<robbiew> we are reviewing Lucid commitments next week...so I need specs written this week
<robbiew> otherwise I'll have to defer them for Manic Monkey
 * robbiew bets someone will think that's the real name and blog it
<Keybuk> Manic Minotaur!
 * lool thinks Monkey sucks -- we already had Gibbon
<robbiew> Mythic Minotaur
<cjwatson> Marmoset
<mvo> mermaid?
<robbiew> Mammoth Mammoth
<Keybuk> damnit, we should have had Buffalo Buffalo for B
<lool> We should start all meetings with some brainstorm on $dist name; it's much more fun  :-)
<robbiew> heh...
<robbiew> we are also using burn-down charts this cycle
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto
<robbiew> which mean more work upfront for planning work items, but will make it a LOT easier to track progress
<robbiew> and know when we are getting into trouble
<cjwatson> I've only used it for one spec so far, but it didn't seem too onerous
<robbiew> yeah...pretty easy
<robbiew> I've done a few already
 * Keybuk already had a Work Items section in his blueprints
<Keybuk> so should be easy to copy over
 * robbiew already copied some for you ;)
<robbiew> I'll also be prioritizing all the work items for Lucid
<Keybuk> though mine aren't really 1-2 days things ;)
<robbiew> well....they could be broken down into 1-2 day things
<robbiew> which might be useful in realizing the actual work effort
<Keybuk> I was more meaning "Mine" to be things I have to do ;)
<robbiew> but it's not an exact science...and the charts aren't the only thing I would use to gauge progress
<robbiew> I'd like to have as many blueprints milestoned if possible
<cjwatson> is an equivalent of that slide that said which milestones were for which purpose up somewhere?
<robbiew> the iteration stuff is not that relevant for us
<robbiew> at least in my opinion
<robbiew> except for things the products have targeted
<robbiew> like the server installer stuff ;)
<robbiew> for Alpha 2
<cjwatson> do we have a full list of those?
<cjwatson> not that many work days from here to Alpha 2 :-/
<lool> Of lucid foundations specs?
<robbiew> yep...were posted to ubuntu-devel I think
<lool> I think workitems.py will look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/?searchtext=lucid-foundations
<cjwatson> lool: no, of things that come from product roadmaps
<cjwatson> I hope foundations-lucid rather than lucid-foundations
<robbiew> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-l?searchtext=foundations-lucid
<robbiew> for specs targeted to UDS Lucid
<lool> cjwatson: It doesn't matter
<robbiew> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=foundations-lucid
<lool> (foundations-lucid, lucid-foundations, lucid foundations...)
<robbiew> for specs targeted to the actual Lucid release
<robbiew> "foundations lucid" should work fine
<robbiew> in the searcg
<robbiew> search
<cjwatson> right, I mean things that we are going to get sat on for not delivering by alpha 2 because they're in a product roadmap
 * robbiew will forward the alpha 2 deliverable emails to the team 
<lool> cjwatson: A bunch of bps on that page have milestone == alpha-2
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> if that's a sufficient indicator, great
<lool> (NB: workitems.py will skip over the mobile and dx specs on that list)
<robbiew> I should point out that some of the specs we had for UDS Lucid were from karmic, so a foundations-karmic search is also suggested
<robbiew> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-l?searchtext=foundations-karmic
<cjwatson> looks like the list I'm looking for is just UEC installation right now?
<robbiew> fwiw, I'll be going through each UDS Lucid blueprint this week...to be sure we've deferred or targeted it
<cjwatson> which is a surprisingly short list but ok
<cjwatson> (looking at https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/lucid-alpha-2)
<robbiew> there may be a few software-center  related items as well
<robbiew> but need mvo and mpt to prioritize that stuff first ;)
 * mvo has this on his list
<Keybuk> robbiew: just reviewed my specs, the work items actually all look pretty reasonable
<Keybuk> (size wise)
<robbiew> and we can add more if we want...or even target something to alpha 1 (though I discourage it)
<Keybuk> if anything, they're 1-2 hours not days
<robbiew> cool, thnx
<Keybuk> and I've moved some milestones
<robbiew> I think I've got a pretty good handle on our work items...but just need to defer the ones I know we can't do and prioritize the others
<Keybuk> I moved the experience stuff up to alpha 1 :p
<Keybuk> because I don't want it as a noose over our heads throughout the cycle
<robbiew> don't worry about prioritizing...but feel free to defer if you know there's no way it can be done this cycle ;)
<robbiew> heh
 * robbiew was going to do that...but didn't want you to think I was pressuring you ;)
<Keybuk> since it's "apply patches we already have and upload a package we already have"
<cjwatson> I might chuck in ubiquity-auto-update since the code for that is written
<cjwatson> might as well make our stats look better :)
 * robbiew is all for that
<robbiew> obviously we don't want to tackle all the easy ones first...but if the code is mostly written, throw that bad boy in early!
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> okay...that's all I really have this week
<robbiew> anyone have anything else they want to cover?
<Keybuk> robbiew: any reason why some specs are assigned to the team rather than individuals?
<Keybuk> which is it supposed to be?
<robbiew> if an individual is doing all the work items...then assign to that person
<robbiew> if multiple people involved, assign to the team
<robbiew> the drafter should always be a person...and I consider the lead for that particular blueprint
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> desktop-lucid-boot-experience should be assigned to DX?
<robbiew> hmm
<robbiew> who is the assignee now?
<Keybuk> not sure how much overlap there is with the foundations one ;)
<Keybuk> we are
<Keybuk> foundations covers the X transition already
<Keybuk> I figured desktop boot experience is once X is up
<Keybuk> and is all about gdm/desktop fades
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> assign to dbarth
<robbiew> and let him figure it out
<robbiew> I don't want to assign to other teams...since they may have different methods
<robbiew> will either be DX or Desktop..or combination of both...though i think DX should own that portion
<Keybuk> agree
<Keybuk> done
<Keybuk> work items and milestones done too :)
<robbiew> cool
 * robbiew should probably invite gary lasker to these meetings :/
<robbiew> but he starts with us next week
<lool> "tremolux"
<cjwatson> will he be entirely software center, or will we be able to snag him for the occasional other thing too?
<robbiew> heh...that's mvo's call ;)
<robbiew> but I suspect he can be used in other places as well
<mvo> just software-center ;)
<robbiew> same with barry...once he starts
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> I guess he also has a word in this :)
<robbiew> I'm sure doko wants barry to himself...but that isn't realistic or fair to barry
<mvo> lol
 * mvo wants a bit of barry too
<robbiew> anything else?
<robbiew> oh...get your expenses in as soon as you can
<Keybuk> I have some GOOD NEWS! :p
<robbiew> heh...go for it
<Keybuk> robbiew: can you approve the last remaining one of mine? :p
<robbiew> I'm waiting to see if we get free registrations since we sponsor
 * Keybuk has the daily bootcharts, kernel boot graphs, installer logs and installer bootcharts stuff working at home on both minis
<robbiew> if so, you can get lca to refund
<Keybuk> robbiew: ah, right
<Keybuk> so if we were to ever get a new daily on cdimage, they'd both wake up and make pretty charts :p
<cjwatson> Keybuk: do you have the recipe for installer bootcharts lying around? I want to start doing that in non-automated cases too
<robbiew> and post where?
<cjwatson> new daily> MINE MORE DISK
<Keybuk> robbiew: they'll be on people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/
<Keybuk> installer logs will be people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-installer/
<Keybuk> (not rsync'd yet, but that's just a formality to finish up later)
<cjwatson> actually, I want installer bootcharting to be a boot option at least during development, so that I don't have to customise CDs :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: err, I have a shell script that stuffs bootchart into the casper initramfs - and a success command that turns it into a tarball and scps it somewhere <g>
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> bootcharting installer requires some care
<Keybuk> it's amazing how quickly you can fill /dev
<cjwatson> actually I'd be happy with a way to turn on "boot"charting at a certain point
<cjwatson> since I really just want to use it as a glorified process profiler
 * robbiew is working on more minis for Keybuk...I suspect we won't hear anything this week due to the US holiday
<cjwatson> so I guess I kind of have that already
<Keybuk> robbiew: I can click a button on the Dell website and get some ;)
<robbiew> yeah...but then we have to pay ;)
<robbiew> I'd prefer free ones
<Keybuk> hehe
<Keybuk> free candy for all!
<robbiew> but understand time is of the essence here
<robbiew> if it sounds like it's going to be a long time, then we can buy them...and I'll take the free ones :P
<Keybuk> robbiew: I'm sure rick's team want some too
<robbiew> good point
<robbiew> and dbarth
<robbiew> but rick will need them the most, I suspect
<robbiew> bah...there goes my netbook cloud :P
<st33med> Just my two cents (sorry if I am interrupting) but bootcharts, if you guys are talking about the repository programs, would have to be modified to stop at GDM start. Otherwise, the chart becomes somewhat unintelligible
<Keybuk> st33med: ?
<robbiew> huh?
<Keybuk> we don't want it stopped when gdm starts
<Keybuk> we want the entire desktop login too
<st33med> Oh ok
 * st33med shuts up
<Keybuk> our boot performance goals are to a visible desktop with no cpu or disk activity
<Keybuk> the reason boot chart runs longer is to make *sure* that we're really finished ;-)
<robbiew> yeah...we're not like windows ;)
<st33med> Heh
<ogra> note that the mobile team is about to pull bootchart into the armel live images for doing casper profiling until beta, would it make sense to use it on other arches too ?
<robbiew> we mean to a USABLE desktop ;)
<Keybuk> 45s just happens to be longer than all the sleeps pitti keeps putting in <g>
<Keybuk> (to hide things from me)
<ogra> i.e. in all default development images
<st33med> But I have a hard time reading the charts, the characters become jumbled in some others.
<Keybuk> st33med: that's probably your svg renderer
<robbiew> okay...let's wrap this up!
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:49.
<st33med> http://img697.imageshack.us/i/andrewlaptopkarmic20091.png/
<mvo> thanks
<lool> Cheers
<st33med> And sorry if I interrupted :)
<robbiew> st33med: no worries
<robbiew> that's why we have the meeting publicly ;)
<st33med> Ah
<st33med> And not in some super secret nuclear bunker
<st33med> That's for the plans against MS :D
<st33med> robbiew, what team are you guys anyway?
<robbiew> Foundations
<robbiew> wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam
<Keybuk> st33med: yeah, I've seen lots of renderings like that
<Keybuk> I think that's the python one on karmic?
<st33med> Yeah
<Keybuk> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/max-lucid-20091124-2.png
<Keybuk> the render got a whole lot sweeter in lucid by the looks of it
<st33med> That looks much better. I can actually tell where the text is pointing to XD
<Keybuk> I have a cute python program that overlays lines for the interesting points
<Keybuk> my thing to do this evening is to try and port that into pybootchartgui itself
<Keybuk> so it'll cut the chart when it actually goes quiet
<Keybuk> (three seconds of activity < 25%)
<Keybuk> and draw red lines when X starts and stuff
<st33med> That would be nice.  The logs become bloated by the end of boot sequence
<st33med> Of course, that could only be bad if there is some startup bug in which it stalls boot for more than three seconds
<st33med> *cough*ndiswrapper in edgy*cough*
<Keybuk> this evening because jet lag hit me today so I spent the morning playing Assassin's Creed II instead of working <g>
 * marjo waves
<marjo> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pedro_> hello folks
<ara> hey all
<marjo> QA Team Meeting
 * fader_ waves.
<sbeattie> hey
<schwuk> hi
<marjo> Agenda
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> #
<marjo> Specs at http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/ (ara)
<marjo> Welcome back from UDS Dallas
<marjo> Thanks to everyone who participated. It was a very productive UDS for the QA Team
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie
<sbeattie> SRU activity got subdued a bit last week due to UDS.
<sbeattie> But activity over the past two weeks has still been pretty high.
<sbeattie> SRU Activity for the past two weeks (since 2009-11-11)
<sbeattie> * karmic: 26 new packages in -proposed and 47 packages pushed to -updates.
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 8 new packages (gst-plugins-bad-multiverse0.10, ipsec-tools, kaffeine, linux, nut, pulseaudio, rxvt-unicode, totem) in -proposed and 8 (clamav, kvm, landscape-client, linux, pulseaudio, totem, tzdata, update-manager) packages pushed to -updates
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 1 new package (ipsec-tools) in -proposed and 1 package (tzdata) pushed to -updates
<sbeattie> * hardy: 2 new packages in -proposed (sun-java5, sun-java6) and 3 packages (lilo-installer, tzdata, virtualbox-ose-modulesk) pushed to -updates
<sbeattie> * dapper: 1 new package in -proposed (sun-java5) and 1 package (langpack-locales) pushed to -updates
<sbeattie> Thanks to Philip Muskovac,  Victor C., Antonio J. Garcia, Simon Jagoe, Simon DÃ©ziel, Jonathan Thomas,  Gunther Stengl, Ilya Barygin, Jamie, StepLg, Matthew Flaschen, Steve Dodier,  Bryan McLellan, Laurent Bonnaud, Evan Broder, Eladio GÃ¡lvez, Benjamin Drung, kwurzel, David Trask, madbiologist, Gergely Imreh, John Koskie, Danyi DÃ¡vid, Esteban, and others for testing SRUs in proposed over the last two weeks.
<sbeattie> Assistance in testing SRUs is always welcome, come join us in #ubuntu-testing if you'd like to help out.
<sbeattie> (that's all I've got for SRUs)
<marjo> [TOPIC]  # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:   # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> thx Steve
<pedro_> we don't have a scheduled bug day for the current week but....
<pedro_> qense (from the bugsquad) proposed one for the next one
<pedro_> the target will be translations
<pedro_> yes, translations we'll be concentrated on the bugs of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/
<marjo> ok pedro
<marjo> sounds good
<pedro_> organization is going to happen soon, so stay tuned to planet ubuntu and the mailing lists  for more news about it
<ara> pedro_, is those bugs for wrongly translated strings? or for lang-packages?
<pedro_> ara, the first one
<ara> pedro_, nice
<pedro_> otherwise we might need to go to each langpack to select bugs
<pedro_> which might take a bit longer to do
<pedro_> dpm suggested to go for the first target though
<pedro_> marjo, that's all from here
<marjo> pedro_ thx!
<marjo> [TOPIC] Specs at http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/ (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specs at http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid/ (ara)
<ara> I have seen that some charts has been started to be generated for blueprint work items
<ara> I would like to know how do we now which ones exactly are being included
<ara> and how to get new items included in the chart
<sbeattie> ara: I think bdmurray was working with pitti to get qa items included.
<sbeattie> (I think bdmurray is on holiday today)
<marjo> i think we can specify them to pitti
<marjo> bdmurray and I are working with pitti
<ara> can we get the current list?
<marjo> ara: right now, there's only one, so get your items to me or send them to pitti directly
<marjo> just make sure they are for lucid, though
<ara> marjo, OK, thanks
<ara> marjo, well, as soon as you approve mines, I will pass them to pitti
<marjo> yes, agree
<marjo> folks: anything else on this topic?
<ara> marjo, OK, thanks. i was getting confused about this
<marjo> folks: any new agenda items??
<fader_> I'd just like to sound a distant early warning about Alpha 1
<fader_> I know there were people asking what they could do to help test Ubuntu
<fader_> ISO testing is a great way to make a huge difference and is quick to get started with :)
<marjo> [TOPIC] Alpha 1 preparation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 preparation
<marjo> fader_ thx for the reminder and early warning
<marjo> folks: any new agenda items?
<marjo> if not, i propose we adjourn the meeting
<marjo> going once
<marjo> going twice
<marjo> meeting adjourned
<marjo> thx everyone!
<fader_> Thanks all
<ara> thanks!
<marjo> cya next time
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:20.
<ara> happy thanksgiving day for US folks! See you on Friday!
<pedro_> thanks all
<marjo> ara: thx!
<popey> FFEMTcJ: sure
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> hi! sorry just got a bit distracted while making some coffee
<highvoltage> are we all here?
<alkisg> \o/
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings
<stgraber> do we have a working link to some kind of agenda ? :)
<highvoltage> hmm, I wasn't aware of that particular page
<highvoltage> yes stgraber
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> As most of you have probably noticed, the Edubuntu Council Elections haven't started yet
<highvoltage> and it might not completely run as originally planned since we only have 6 nominations
<highvoltage> which is understandable since we're quite a small team
<highvoltage> we're currently talking to the CC and we might end up making it a confirmation vote and have all 6 nominees form the new EC.
<highvoltage> stgraber: did you perhaps get a chance yet to ping cj watson for the extra casper image that we'll require?
<stgraber> nope, not yet
<nixternal_> hola
<stgraber> I'll have to check if we have enough space at the moment first so I don't make the DVD build to fail by doing so
<highvoltage> hi nixternal
<stgraber> hi nixternal
 * highvoltage checks if there are daily builds yet
<alkisg> That's for including an LTSP image?
<stgraber> yep
<highvoltage> oh there is, wow
<stgraber> highvoltage: there's
<stgraber> I'm receiving a build email every morning about it :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: couldn't the alternate part be dropped already?
<stgraber> highvoltage: depends if we want to support moodle installation or not
 * alkisg built an ubuntu live dvd with LTSP on it, both chroot and image, at less than 1 Gb (along with many other apps). squashfs removes duplicate files and saves a lot of space...
<stgraber> highvoltage: if yes, then we'll need to tweak the seeds for that so only the server part is included and desktop is dropped from the alternate part
<highvoltage> hmm
<highvoltage> I thought it would be nice to drop the d-i installer part completely, but I suppose it would be nice to be able to have an out-of-the-box moodle, etc option
<highvoltage> stgraber: moodle is easy enough to install after the system is installed though isn't it?
<stgraber> I think so yes
<highvoltage> in previous releases there was an option to install a classroom server
<highvoltage> which would basically install schooltool and moodle, etc
<stgraber> right, that's what I was thinking of keeping as text installer
<highvoltage> I guess there could be two options from the cd installer again, "Install Desktop or Application Server" and "Install Classroom Server"
<highvoltage> the naming could probably tweaked to be a little bit more intuitive
<nubae> hah... I joined ubnutu-meeting
<nubae> where I was alone...
<highvoltage> nubae: heh, welcome
<nubae> then I realised, there are no nuts in ubuntu, maybe some fruitloops
<nubae> but no nuts ;-)
<highvoltage> hmm, where's sbalneaves
<nubae> btw... sorrty to interject in the middle of a conversation... but has anyone had a chance to see opensuse 11.2-edu?
<highvoltage> nubae: can you point to a release announcement / notes?
<nubae> well, I did a blog report about it: www.nubae.com
<nubae> truble with a pic though
<nubae> lett me look for release note too
<highvoltage> sbalneaves wants to handle the CD building stuff for Lucid, so I wondered if he would be interested looking into Ubiquity and how we could package something that would be run close to the end of an installation that would do most of the LTSP stuff in the target system
<nubae> its imrpessive.... well thats an understatement...its like shockingly complete and functional
<highvoltage> I think the earlier in the cycle we can sort out the LTSP/LiveCD stuff the more nicer things we can fit in afterwards
<stgraber> highvoltage: sounds good, we need to have a ltsp chroot built and copied some place on the DVD, a small script written so one can start LTSP from the Live session and finally a change to ubiquity so we can choose to install LTSP or not
<nubae> picure is working on my site now if intereted to take a look
<nubae> its damn smooth looking
<highvoltage> yeah I think the script to start LTSP from the CD will be quite simple compared to getting the right things in ubiquity
<highvoltage> nubae: heh, we should add an opensuse-edu meeting just for you in the future :)
<nubae> I'd like, if possible, to wok on some of the universe addiitions that were not possible due to lack of spae
<nubae> highvoltage, sorry for being amember of both, but in the long run I believe it will benefit us all
<highvoltage> nubae: that would be great, we have a basic list already if you'd like to review/expand on it
<nubae> right...
<highvoltage> nubae: no need to apologise!
<nubae> would we handle them as ini packages or seeds like has been done with primary, teritiry, etc'
<highvoltage> nubae: they could just be slotted into the current metapackages, tasks, etc, since we don't really have to distinguish between main and universe anymore
<nubae> and the other area I'd like to focus on is artwork.. both icons, wallpapaers (I have 4 ready themed ones already that some of u have seen)
<nubae> but all in all, I would love  a complete visual rep of what edubuntu is
<highvoltage> well we do since things in main can't depend on things in universe, but we can include universe packages on the DVD so the metapackages could probably all go to universe as well
<nubae> cause thats what the public sees
<highvoltage> nubae: I haven't seen it yet, mind posting some links to the list?
<nubae> yes no prob.. let me see its up somewhere I know.... basd on humour children could get...
<nubae> let me get the link
<alkisg> How would the LTSP chroot be embedded in the CD, since it isn't part of some package? And, aren't all things inside the squashfs image copied to the target system? So, the chroot would need to be *uninstalled* when the user doesn't want LTSP (not installed when the user selects it, as that's the default action, right?)
<highvoltage> alkisg: right, so it wouldn't include a directory for a chroot, but just the squashfs image
<nubae> its an area we can give openuse  run for its money... their website design is not all that great and the dont really have original icon set and themes
<highvoltage> alkisg: that would be built seperately from the livecd squashfs on the same build server, and then be included on the disc as a seperate squashfs filesystem than the casper one
<alkisg> highvoltage: would that be *outside* of the squashfs image?
<highvoltage> alkisg: it would indeed
<alkisg> OK, if that's possible from a technical aspect, I don't see many problems in getting live LTSP ready for Lucid...
<highvoltage> alkisg: yeah the canonical guys will have to make some modifications on the build servers for the extra squashfs, that may be a factor that's slightly out of our control
<highvoltage> alkisg: but the actual livecd system shouldn't be too much of a problem
<highvoltage> alkisg: we want to be able to install ltsp from a live system as well, that's where it gets more challenging
<alkisg> "as well"? So the text installer will also be there?
<highvoltage> "as well" as in, in addition to be able to run it from the livecd
<stgraber> nope, we'd likely drop the text installer. Ubuntu alternate would still be there for text install of ltsp
<highvoltage> there will be a text installer but only for a classrrom server if you want to run moodle, etc (possibly schooltool again when that's available again in ubuntu)
<alkisg> I guess a mounting of the squashfs image over /opt/ltsp/i386 would suffice for the chroot to be copied to the final system, won't it?
<highvoltage> stgraber: oh, I thought you wanted to keep the text installer for a classroom server
<stgraber> highvoltage: yes, for classroom srever
<stgraber> *server
<stgraber> not LTSP or Desktop
<highvoltage> ok, I just wanted to make sure we're in sync there :)
<highvoltage> so for ubiquity we'd basically want some way of asking the user if they'd like LTSP installed, if they don't want it the additional packages should be removed, and if they do we need to extract/copy the ltsp data and run a few things like ltsp-update-{kernels,sshkeys}
<highvoltage> I'm not sure how installing things like dhcpd will work on the build servers, I've run into some problems installing it in a chroot before but I'm sure that could be fixed
<stgraber> well, it works with the text install
<alkisg> I don't think dhcpd should be preinstalled in the live dvd
<stgraber> so it shouldn't be that bad with the GUI install
<stgraber> dhcpd will be preinstalled but just not running by default
<stgraber> and in fact, ubiquity doesn't install things, it copies everything and removes some stuff
<alkisg> Why not install ltsp-client-standalone from the DVD *only* when the user selects that he wants LTSP?
<highvoltage> alkisg: on a livecd install, something is either installed or not, things that are not desired on the target system (usually language packs and internationalisation) are then removed at the end of the installation
<alkisg> (i.e. as part of an ubiquity step)
<highvoltage> alkisg: so dhcpd has to be installed on there, just not running by default
<alkisg> OK
<highvoltage> I'll ping the list again to update the edubuntu doodle schedule for the next few weeks so that we can plan our meetings more in advance
<highvoltage> deciding on the next week's meeting time on a week-to-week basis is still a bit short notice for people, and it's hard to plan for people who can't make the current meeting
<stgraber> would be great indeed
<highvoltage> other thatn that I don't think we have any urgent meeting items to discuss
<highvoltage> there's a lot of other things but it would be nice to have bigger meeting turnout for that
<highvoltage> like our website and the wiki!
<highvoltage> dholbach suggested a wiki-hug-day for edubuntu, I think that could work with some good co-ordination
<highvoltage> but we'll have to decide what we want and set up some basic guidelines before hand so that contributors know what to do
<highvoltage> otherwise we might end up with someone reshuffling half the wiki again :)
<highvoltage> anything else?
<stgraber> not on my side
<highvoltage> ok, meeting adjourned... *BONG*
<alkisg> Thanks :)
<highvoltage> (we'll still be in #edubuntu afterwards if anyone is interested in joining)
<stgraber> I guess we'll probably have our next meeting just after we know who the next EC members will be
<stgraber> anyway, got to go, see you all later
<nubae> darn missed half conv trying to upload images
<nubae> anyway they'll be there soon
<nubae> are there any ideas on iconic themes?
<nubae> I mean... we can go realllly younh
<nubae> we can go more hip/cool for the teens
<nubae> or we can go more casual so that it fits audiences for unis too?
<highvoltage> nubae: I *really* like the breathe icon theme, although it's probably not the most edubuntu-centric theme there is
<highvoltage> nubae: anyway, let's move this to #edubuntu
<nubae> ok, sorry to just but in
 * alkisg would like an option for keeping the default ubuntu theme :)
<sbalneav> here
<sbalneav> SOrry, was in a real-life meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-26
 * mac_v is away: Auto-away after 3 mins idle (gone at 26th Nov, 13:14:14)
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<Hobbsee> mac_v: please turn that off
<mac_v`afk> Hobbsee: oops  yeah , I'm just figuring it out... sorry
<mac_v> Hobbsee: could you paste the message you just saw?
<Hobbsee> [18:50] * mac_v is away: Auto-away after 3 mins idle (gone at 26th Nov, 13:20:24)
<mac_v> argh! :( ... sorry
<Hobbsee> oh, hang on.
 * Hobbsee pm's
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<dholbach> tseliot, ebroder, blackxored, nixternal, nhandler, jpds, geser: are you guys around?
<ebroder> hey dholbach
 * blackxored is here :P
<jpds> Afternoon.
<nhandler> I'm here
<turk33> gobble
 * geser waves
<nixternal> hola
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * tseliot waves
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Evan Broder's MOTU Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Evan Broder's MOTU Application
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanBroder/MOTUApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EvanBroder/MOTUApplication
<dholbach> hey ebroder - how are you doing?
<ebroder> hey - not too bad. excited, nervous, etc
<dholbach> it's all good :)
<dholbach> ebroder: so you said you're a bit unhappy about the sponsoring process... is there any ideas you have about how we could fix it? by something other than spending more time on it? anything that would improve the situation?
<ebroder> i'm not really sure what there is to do besides make sure the sponsorship queue gets the attention it needs
<ebroder> i did think about this some more recently, though
<ebroder> it occurred to me that i might be more frustrated with sru handling than normal uploads
<ebroder> since that's a lot of what i do
<ebroder> (i mean to go back and edit that on the application, but forgot)
<nixternal> heh, I am looking at build failures you had, and on the build status page, there is a head shot of cjwatson smiling at me...kind of scared me :p
<nhandler> ebroder: So would you be interested in getting involved with the SRU team if you become a MOTU?
<dholbach> I see, maybe we should have a chat about SRU separately from this meeting though :)
<nixternal> ebroder: do you remember you had the build failures for zephyr and mit-scheme in jaunty? sorry, my LP connect is buggered right now...what were the reasons behind those?
<ebroder> nhandler: Absolutely
<ebroder> nixternal: Not off the top of my head - let me glance at the logs
<ebroder> mit-scheme is just a weird package to begin with
<jpds> nixternal: bug #427051 .
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427051 in soyuz "Copy archives show their owner too prominently" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427051
<ebroder> nixternal: looks like the zephyr failure was krb4-related? that's weird - shouldn't have happened in jaunty, though
<nixternal> "I think the MOTU community needs to collectively buckle down and agree to pressure each other to spend more time on sponsoring other people's patches."  - considering that 99.9% of MOTU are volunteers, what would you propose here that would work for them
<nixternal> note: the whole volunteer excuse is pathetic to me btw...I don't like when people won't fix something because they are just a volunteer supposedly
<ebroder> nixternal: I'm not sure how you can do it as anything other than setting expectations and atmosphere
<dholbach> jpds: what about that bug?
<ebroder> It's obvious that Ubuntu can't survive without extensive help from the community, so I think helping people outside of the relatively inner circle of MOTUs is an important part of keeping Ubuntu going
<ebroder> When you look at it that way, it's sort of self-destructive to /not/ do sponsorship and such
<nixternal> groovy answer :)
<dholbach> is there any team you could imagine working with apart from motu?
<nixternal> groovy feedback too
<ebroder> dholbach: I'm hoping to get involved with backports more actively. It all comes back to dealing with a deployment that lags behind Ubuntu development, so I'm interested in getting bug fixes and new software to the machines I'm responsible for
<dholbach> nice
 * dholbach is done with questions
 * nixternal too
<dholbach> geser, jpds, nhandler?
<geser> catching up with scrollback
<ebroder> nixternal: You know, I'm still really confused by those mit-scheme and zephyr FTBFS's. I don't think I recognize them at all
<nhandler> ebroder: So besides SRUs and Backports (which are both great), what type of work are you planning on doing for the current development release if you become a MOTU ?
 * nixternal notes there is a deep fried turkey with his name written all over it
 * nixternal also notes there are pumpkin pies galore that specifically say 'nixternal only! you touch, I install Windows on your PC!'
<ebroder> nhandler: I'm not really sure I know yet. I don't think I've ever been as actively involved in a development release as I'd like to be for Lucid. The stuff I do is usually more reactionary
 * nixternal notes that SRUs will take up most of ones time anyways :)
 * nixternal is noting quite a bit today
<nhandler> Ok, I'm ready to vote
<dholbach> only jpds and geser left :)
<geser> nixternal: if it's deep fried then you are in no hurry during this meeting. It won't get colder :)
<geser> no questions for ebroder
<jpds> I'm fine.
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Evan Broder become MOTU?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Evan Broder become MOTU?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> doesn't matter...there are plenty of people waiting too, some happen to actually be bigger than I :)
<nixternal> +1
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jpds> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> ebroder: congrats and welcome!!! \o/
<nhandler> Congrats ebroder. It will be nice having another person working on SRUs and Backports. Keep up the great work.
<dholbach> Congratulations ebroder
<ebroder> whoo!
<dholbach> :-)
<ebroder> thanks all :-D
<tseliot> congrats
<blackxored> ebroder, congrats
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Alberto Milone's Core Dev application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alberto Milone's Core Dev application
<jpds> ebroder: congrats. :)
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<tseliot> o/
<dholbach> tseliot: Buon Giorno Alberto :)
<dholbach> how are you doing?
<tseliot> dholbach: exhausted because of my work on plymouth but otherwise fine, thanks. You?
<dholbach> a bit tired myself, but it's all good :)
<tseliot> good :-)
<nixternal> hrmm, I figured tseliot would have more testimonials considering his god-like work with X
<dholbach> you mentioned you work with X.org upstream - how are things going there?
<tseliot> nixternal: I guess they were busy ;)
<nixternal> no doubt
<tseliot> dholbach: quite well. They also gave me an account on freedesktop so that I can contribute to plymouth
<tseliot> and I'm working very closely with upstream
<dholbach> nice, I'm glad to hear that
<nixternal> I will give my brief testimonial on where I worked a little with tseliot back in the day...he did some X work for Kubuntu at UDS Jaunty \o/ and lets not forget his groovy touchpad drivers for the dell mini 10v that made my life easier as well a couple of months back
 * tseliot is working on the boot process for Lucid
<nhandler> tseliot: How is your UI for configuring touchpads coming along?
<dholbach> tseliot: do you know if there are any plans for BulletproofX this cycle? I mean the little dialogue that help you fix things?
<tseliot> nhandler: it stalled because of my lack of time but I'll work on it and on touchscreens in this release cycle as I'll join the desktop team (for a team swap, as I'm an OEM engineer)
<tseliot> dholbach: I think there are plans for that as we want to make X more robust in general
<tseliot> bryce is the right person to ask on that
<dholbach> alrightie - was just wondering :)
<tseliot> I'll try to fix the mess with proprietary drivers and some other X stuff
<nixternal> tseliot: any more working coming for the touchpad on dell mini's? or are the touchpads on them so bad it is darn near impossible to make them any better?
<dholbach> sounds like a busy time
<tseliot> dholbach: it sure is
<tseliot> nixternal: do yo refer to the mini 10v?
<nixternal> yes
<tseliot> if so, then yes, I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do about it.
<tseliot> the switch from hal to udev should make it more reliable though
<nixternal> I kind of figured that unfortunately.... /me kicks dell
<tseliot> as sometimes the fdi cache is corrupted and my fix is ignored
<nixternal> I have kicked Mario enough
<tseliot> hehe
<nixternal> I am done with questions....I am ready to rock and roll
<nhandler> I'm good to vote
 * dholbach too
<jpds> Yep.
<nixternal> whoa, he said something without a ping first :p
<dholbach> geser?
<nixternal> geser?
<nixternal> haha
 * geser is ready to vote
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Alberto Milone be recommended for Core Dev?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Alberto Milone be recommended for Core Dev?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jpds> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jpds. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> tseliot: congrats and welcome!!! \o/
<dholbach> well done :)
<jpds> tseliot: Congrats. :)
<nhandler> Congratulations tseliot !
<ebroder> congrats, tseliot
<dholbach> We'll pass our nomination on to the DMB and they'll get in touch with you
<tseliot> thanks everyone :-)
<tseliot> ok, great
<blackxored> tseliot, cool :P
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Application of Adrian Perez for upload rights for azureus, swt-gtk and eclips
<MootBot> New Topic:  Application of Adrian Perez for upload rights for azureus, swt-gtk and eclips
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Application of Adrian Perez for upload rights for azureus, swt-gtk and eclipse
<MootBot> New Topic:  Application of Adrian Perez for upload rights for azureus, swt-gtk and eclipse
<dholbach> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrianPerez/PerPackageUploaderApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrianPerez/PerPackageUploaderApplication
<dholbach> hello blackxored - how are you doing?
<dholbach> looks like last-minute application :-)
<blackxored> I'm fine daniel thanks
<dholbach> great
 * bdrung_ is here, too.
<dholbach> nice
<blackxored> surely it does, I'm not sure we can complete today :(
<blackxored> and yourself?
<dholbach> blackxored: your application does not have any endorsements from other people you worked with... who did you work with particularly in Ubuntu and/or debian?
 * dholbach is doing quite well, thanks :)
<bdrung_> dholbach: press f5
<blackxored> bdrung_, hehehe
<nixternal> heh
<blackxored> I have worked with bdrung, nthykier, and slytherin on ubuntu
<dholbach> bdrung_: appreciated
<nixternal> I see bdrung_'s testimonial
<blackxored> the most of it
<nixternal> I was going to ask if you worked with bdrung_ first
<blackxored> sadly, neither slythering or nthykier seem active
<dholbach> blackxored: is there anything you are most proud of in your work with Ubuntu and Debian?
<bdrung_> nthykier is debian user (so he do not count)
<blackxored> dholbach, definitely the azureus resurrection, that was hard-work :P
<nhandler> blackxored: What do you plan on doing if you gain upload rights for these packages?
<dholbach> blackxored: I'm curious, what did the work to resurrect it entail?
<blackxored> bdrung_, good point, but worked with him :P
<dholbach> bdrung_: if nthykier was here, I'd value the input :)
<blackxored> dholbach, it was something like idiomatic expression, I had to re-package, clean a huge backlog of bugs, restart contact with upstream, and the like
<blackxored> I enjoyed doing all that, no complains
<dholbach> yeah, I guess so :)
<dholbach> blackxored: anything during the resurrection which was really hard?
<bdrung_> dholbach: i contacted him (let's see if he is online)
<blackxored> really really hard
<blackxored> I don't think so
<blackxored> the bugs probably
 * blackxored thinks dholbach liked the term "resurrection" hehehe
<dholbach> like contacting the upstream developers about the problems and making sure they start working on them?
<nhandler> blackxored: What do you plan on doing if you gain upload rights for these packages?
<blackxored> dholbach, no, that was easy, I have a pretty good integration with upstream devs there, I crash the team's head twice a week or so
 * dholbach takes notes: violent character, crashes heads
 * nixternal was looking for doko
<blackxored> nhandler, by working as a team of course, but i think I would be great to provide a clean integration within the debian packages and the ubuntu ones, the upstream fixes, and the like
<blackxored> dholbach, hehehe it was also idiomatic :P
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> blackxored: in the packaging, is there a lot of .jar juggling involved? is it very likely to break? (note that I have little experience with java packaging)
<blackxored> nhandler, example, we have an ubuntu delta in azureus, I've strongly tested that can be dropped, it prevents sync for that package, and it was introduced in an early stage of karmic because of a hotspot bug
<blackxored> dholbach, eclipse is the one which jars make me cry, otherwise cdbs is clean enough for our purposes
<blackxored> I have also worked with the jigsaw project for java packaging for linux distros, but the project seems on hold right now
<dholbach> blackxored: how is working in Ubuntu different than working in Debian?
<nixternal> wow, there was a ton of work that went into azureus
<nixternal> blackxored: have you worked with doko at all?
<blackxored> nixternal, thanks
<blackxored> nixternal, you mean Mathias Klose
<blackxored> ?
<blackxored> dholbach, version numbers
<blackxored> dholbach, dependencies sometimes
<blackxored> dholbach, the bug tracker
<nixternal> blackxored: yes
<blackxored> dholbach, policy-related
<bdrung_> FYI: nthykier is here. he is the third person in our "eclipse team"
<blackxored> dholbach, specific bugs that only affect ubuntu
<blackxored> dholbach, like the one in azureus I've been talking about
<dholbach> blackxored: how was your experience getting things done in Ubuntu?
<blackxored> dholbach, ellaborate on that
<dholbach> nthykier: thanks a bunch for turning up here
<blackxored> nixternal, I think he sponsored some uploads for me in debian
<dholbach> blackxored: I would expect that somebody who worked in other places in open source and Debian, might need some time to figure out "how everything works" in Ubuntu
<nthykier> dholbach: you are welcome; though I think I only got 15 min. time hole right now
<dholbach> nthykier: how long have you been working togethere with nthykier?
<dholbach> errr
<dholbach> that was obviously wrong :)
<dholbach> nthykier: how long have you been working togethere with blackxored?
<nixternal> lol
<blackxored> dholbach, I know how stuff works in ubuntu, you may want to be a little more specific about your question, coudl you?
<blackxored> dholbach, heheh
 * bdrung_ wonders how long nthykier worked without himself.
<blackxored> bdrung_, ;)
<nthykier> dholbach: First one, about 22 years, real tight, never let me down!
<dholbach> blackxored: I just wanted to know generally how you found your way into Ubuntu and how it all worked out for you. if it was obvious and the like
<dholbach> nthykier: glad to hear that - it's encouraging :)
<blackxored> dholbach, I switched to ubuntu since 7.04 or so, mostly because of the release process
<nthykier> dholbach: about blackxored I started working with him when he offered to help with packaging eclipse in Debian.
<blackxored> dholbach, and started contributing as soon as I realized I have the skills to do so, both for debian and ubuntu :P
<dholbach> nthykier: how steep do you think the learning curve is for somebody getting involved with Java packaging?
<blackxored> dholbach, as an addon I liked your MOTU videos
<blackxored> heheh
 * nixternal notes: brown nosing
<nixternal> ;p
<dholbach> blackxored: and you feel you got a feel for the processes, how the people worked and everything easily enough? was there anything that felt easier than the other?
<dholbach> blackxored: thanks for the flowers :)
<bdrung_> dholbach: (it took me two year to work on java packages)
<nixternal> jeesh, the diffs with azureus were insane...I am stuck in a diff view that is nuts :)
<blackxored> dholbach, what's definitely easier in ubuntu is that packaging is a big team
<dholbach> blackxored: what do you mean by big team?
<blackxored> dholbach, I disliked that approach at the beginning, someone touching your packages
<nthykier> dholbach: Hmm; not sure; I seem to have caught on it rather fast myself, but I have had some practice with java prior to packaging it
<blackxored> dholbach, no single maintainer
<dholbach> blackxored: ah, gotcha
<blackxored> dholbach, but then realized that team work is a god-send :P
<blackxored> dholbach, np
<dholbach> nthykier: and the same was true for bdrung_ and blackxored? all "java packaging" naturals?
<blackxored> dholbach, not really
<blackxored> dholbach, normally developer, used to java, recommendation to join the team, that's how it happened
<nixternal> I am ready to vote
<nixternal> no more questions here :)
<nthykier> dholbach: I admit not having created a java package from scratch - there has been enough java packages in Debian needing care that I am yet to find time to this.
<blackxored> dholbach, it was natural to be aquantianed with the language of the app, that's the way I have made patches easily
<dholbach> geser, jpds, nhandler: any more questions?
<nhandler> I'm good for voting
<geser> still no questions
<dholbach> geser: sorry, must have missed it
<dholbach> did we lose jpds already?
<dholbach> anyway, we have quorum, let's vote
<dholbach> [VOTE] Shall Adrian Perez be recommended for upload rights for eclipse, azureus and swt-gtk?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Shall Adrian Perez be recommended for upload rights for eclipse, azureus and swt-gtk?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<nixternal> sorry....i was dancing
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dholbach> nixternal: WHAT? :)
<dholbach> oh... I just noticed: <jpds> If you guys think he's acceptable for upload rights, you have my +1.
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<dholbach> which makes 5 out of 5 today
<nixternal> thought I was late on teh vote :)
<dholbach> blackxored: well done - we'll pass on our recommendation to the developer membership board and they'll get in touch with you about it
<nixternal> blackxored: congrats! now .... dang dholbach beat me to it :)
<dholbach> thanks nthykier and bdrung_ for your feedback
<blackxored> \o/
<dholbach> and keep up the good work!
<nthykier> dholbach: you are welcome
<bdrung_> congrats blackxored
<dholbach> I'll be in touch with you guys about frontlinesms packaging soon :)
<blackxored> thank you guys, hopefully for this lucid cycle I'll be noticeable for MOTU
<bdrung_> dholbach: np
<dholbach> there might be some stuff we could work on together - ... and I have no clue :-)
<blackxored> dholbach, ehehhehe
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<blackxored> dholbach, not many java MOTUs out there, I've heard
<blackxored> anyway thanks
<blackxored> :P
<dholbach> not yet :)
<nixternal> nothing more here, other than a turkey waiting for me
<dholbach>  * Decide who is going to Updating process approved applications.
<ebroder> mmm....turkey
<dholbach> raise your hands please!
<dholbach>  * Update MOTU/Headers/NextMCMeeting and MOTU/Council/Meeting
<dholbach>  * Update our team report: MOTU/Council/TeamReport
<nixternal> tomorrow would be the earliest I could do that, as I am heading out for the rest of the day for the holiday
<nixternal> I have people yelling at me to hurry up :)
<dholbach> I'm happy to the two last now, but I won't have time tonight to process the applications
<nixternal> isn't there only one to process?
<nixternal> err, sorry
<dholbach> oh well
<dholbach> I'll do it
<nixternal> I was thinking the LP processing :)
<dholbach> thanks everybody
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:59.
<nixternal> no, thank you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-27
<osvaldo> doesn t looks meeting
<liel> Hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-29
<dholbach> good morning!
<UndiFineD> hey dholbach : i liked the live-stream you did, unfortunatly i had trouble creating an account, will you do more of these ?
<dholbach> UndiFineD, yes, that's the plan
<UndiFineD> :D
<popey> UndiFineD: you dont need an account to watch it
<mdeslaur> hello!
<highvoltage> hello mdeslaur
<robbiew> \o
<jjohansen> o/
 * sbeattie waves
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: you get to play host :)
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:21. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> this will probably be a short meeting today
<jdstrand> kees is on holiday, so I'll start
<jdstrand> I am working on a kernel publication today
<jdstrand> I will need to start testing mozilla later this week
<jdstrand> and in between I hope to look at dbus/apparmor
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<jjohansen> jdstrand: we have more to discuss on that
<jdstrand> jjohansen: yes, I got your email
<jjohansen> ah good :)
<mdeslaur> I'm testing openjdk, and will be releasing it this week
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I have more to do before I respond. I am getting closer though :)
<mdeslaur> I'm also working on an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and am on triage
<mdeslaur> that's it for me!
 * mdeslaur gives the mike to sbeattie 
<sbeattie> I am finishing up an openssl merger (bug 677756) and reviewing some of jjohansen's apparmor patches.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 677756 in openssl (Ubuntu) "Merge openssl 0.9.8o-3 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/677756
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: I can help out with openjdk testing if you need.
<sbeattie> otherwise, I'll try to pick up an open issue to fix.
<sbeattie> I think that's all from me.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: ok
<jdstrand> jjohansen: was there anything you wanted to bring up?
<sbeattie> also, is there a reason the dbus/apparmor exchange isn't on the upstream list?
 * jjohansen is working on both AA user and kernel patches and will drop some more this week
<jdstrand> excellent
<sbeattie> (or did I miss it?)
<jdstrand> sbeattie: it isn't happening yet because I am still getting up to speed
<jjohansen> sbeattie: yes, its just exploritory musings atm, and I wanted to do a little more there before we raise it on the list
<jdstrand> sbeattie: once I am up to speed, jjohansen and I will touch base then send everything up
 * jjohansen too
<sbeattie> jjohansen | jdstrand: okay.
<jdstrand> does anyone have any questions for the security team?
 * jjohansen is also very behind on network patches so they won't hit by the end of Novemeber
<jdstrand> alright
<jdstrand> thanks to everyone!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:31.
<robbiew> slam bam thank you ma'am!
<jdstrand> \o/
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<jdstrand> sure! :0
<mdeslaur> thanks all
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-30
<Agent007> Ubuntu is pretty unworthy to be on my desktop
 * persia wonders if it is one of those days
<nigelb> persia: wasn't it supposed to be last week?
<persia> Yeah, but it wasn't, which makes me wonder if it's this week.  I think it isn't.
<nigelb> I think I haven't seen an Asia meeting in Nov at all
<persia> On the bright side, I don't think you've missed any :)
<nigelb> persia: lol
 * lifeless is epically confused
<nigelb> persia: heh, you should just start a meeting and action youself to remind the rest of the board members ;)
<nigelb> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 30 2010, 11:02:24
<persia> Too late.  I'll do that next week if there isn't a meeting.
<nigelb> lifeless: 10 am.  London probably isn't UTC
<nigelb> No, it isn't.
<lifeless> too late is a local phenomena
<nigelb> heh
<RawChid> #ubuntu-team
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101130
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101130
<ogra_ac> bah
<NCommander> just for the record, who's here?
<ogra_ac> youre to early
 * janimo is here
<ogra_ac> adjust your clock !
<davidm> hello
<ogra_ac> that link doesnt match the one from the announcement :P
<NCommander> morning davidm
<NCommander> ogra_ac: so I made a slight mistake
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] persia to handle namespace renaming
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to handle namespace renaming
 * NCommander pokes persia 
<persia> Ugh.  Editing the wrong page :(
 * rsalveti wonders when the announcement will bring the correct link hehe
<NCommander> rsalveti: I put a redirect on the link I sent by accident
<rsalveti> NCommander: ok, that wasn't there when I tried
<persia> Carry it over.  It's in-process (except at the wrong place :/ )
<NCommander> [topic] persia and NCommander to work out new meeting announcement text
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia and NCommander to work out new meeting announcement text
<NCommander> s/Mobile/ARM/g was really it
<persia> I think that was lost due to "Thanksgiving", or at least we didn't seem to be online at the same time much.
<persia> No, we have to make it better :)
<NCommander> so c/o
<NCommander> [topic] persia to make the bugsquad create a bug overview page for ubuntu-armel
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to make the bugsquad create a bug overview page for ubuntu-armel
<persia> Didn't find the person I wanted much (little overlap again).  I expect to find them in the next few hours :)
<NCommander> [topic] Special Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Special Items
<NCommander> [topic new meeting time
<NCommander> [topic] new meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  new meeting time
<ogra_ac> NCommander, it was more than /Mobile/ARM
<ogra_ac> (sigh)
 * ogra_ac wishes you wouldnt rush so fast
<persia> So, I talked to lots of folk, and 15:00 Thursday seemed the least inconvenient.
<persia> Well, "lots" is really only about 10 people, but still :)
<ogra_ac> persia, for the bugsquad page, just ping bdmurray
<NCommander> so 7 PST, 9 CST, 10 EST, and something over in Europe
<persia> Is anyone here now that wouldn't be able to make it then?
<persia> ogra, I know, but Thanksgiving :)
<ogra_ac> it took him 30sec to change it to canonical-arm for us
<ogra_ac> ok
<persia> Yeah, just need overlap.  I expect I'll catch him beginning of his day today.
<rsalveti> persia: 15 utc?
<ogra_ac> NCommander, UTC times please
<persia> rsalveti, Yes.
<rsalveti> I'm fine
<janimo> me too
 * ogra_ac too
 * NCommander will be with coffee
<persia> OK, so it will move to then, starting from 9th December.
<GrueMaster> coffee not working at 5am PST.  Sorry.
<persia> By the way, what's the team membership policy?
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to annouce new time with Dec 9th meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to annouce new time with Dec 9th meeting
<persia> Just ask an admin?
<ogra_ac> persia, which team ?
<NCommander> persia: requires a vote
<NCommander> or well
<NCommander> for the mobile team it did
<NCommander> ubuntu-armel I think is just add yourself
<ogra_ac> which team are we talking about ?
<persia> ubuntu-armel
<ogra_ac> no, its moderated
<persia> Yeah, what's the policy?
<ogra_ac> just as an admin, yeah
<persia> That's what I thought: just wanted to verify.
<ogra_ac> do we want more admins ?
 * ogra_ac will happily add another
 * persia wants *NOT* to be an admin :)
 * NCommander could do it as I run the meeting and could add people who ask
<ogra_ac> well, just to have a fallback
<ogra_ac> NCommander, ok, i'll add you after the meeting
<NCommander> thanks
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-1.html
<ogra_ac> please move your WIs to A2
<ogra_ac> if you dont plan to get to them today
 * NCommander seconds ogra_ac's comments
<ogra_ac> we look really really bad
<davidm> Mine are done or moved :-)
<NCommander> BTW, ogra_ac http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<ogra_ac> GrueMaster, still has two A1 items
<NCommander> can you get THAT fixed
<GrueMaster> If they need to be done today, I'll move mine to A2.  Was planning on pushing out list this week.
<ogra_ac> NCommander, ask persia ;)
<ogra_ac> NCommander, he maintains that page
<NCommander> anyway
<ogra_ac> i care for canonical-arm only (and said so before we had the second page=
<NCommander> can I move on from burndown charts?
<ogra_ac> erm
<ogra_ac> where are the canonical-armel charts in your paste?
 * ogra_ac sighs and goes to the other page
<ogra_ac> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra_ac> we're way over trendline here
<ogra_ac> so please work on your itmes :)
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> [link] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<NCommander> I've made some work on mono and have some test cases that crash wonderfully
<NCommander> Will work on it some more, but its only a medium on my TODO
<NCommander> flash-kernel will get fixed as soon as I rebuild the XM's SD
<janimo> NCommander: I can try to help with that if you brief me in
<janimo> mono I mean
<NCommander> janimo: needs hardware unfortunately. As soon sa you have it, I'd be glad to have assistance :-)
<janimo> ah ok
<janimo> so far I am poking around kakadu
<GrueMaster> persia: There are a lot of ancient bugs assigned to you.  Can you update them and close them so we can get them off the list?
<NCommander> janimo: you can't run X apps on kakadu which is the original basis of the bug, and our litimus test on if we fixed it so to speak in addition to the mono test suite. If you want to grab mono and build from source and run the test suite and play with it, that should work on kakadu
<rsalveti> davidm: did you send the beagle to janimo?
<rsalveti> if so, janimo will probably get it in 2, 3 days
<janimo> NCommander: which is the LP bug you are chasing?
<NCommander> janimo: its the banshee bug which is actually mono
<janimo> NCommander: I was under the impression that mono or related stuff FTBFS , not a runtime crash
<janimo> ah ok
<NCommander> janimo: runtime crash annoying :-/
<janimo> I see
<NCommander> mono under ARM has always been a bit twichy
<NCommander> anyway, can I move on?
<janimo> apparently did not work on maverick already
<janimo> sure
<ogra_ac> move
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney)
<ogra_ac> so we had some tests of linaros omap3 kernel i belive
<ogra_ac> :)
<ogra_ac> cooloney isnt here
<ogra_ac> so i'll summarize
<ogra_ac> it seems to work on rootstock images
<GrueMaster> I just saw the note this morning to test it on XM.  Will try to get to it today.
<ogra_ac> rsalveti, offered to test on XM
<rsalveti> sure, going on this today
<ogra_ac> so we see if jasper still does the right thing
<ogra_ac> once thats done a config comparison has to happen
<rsalveti> I believe the only remaining thing for cooloney is to check and compare the config
<ogra_ac> if thats ok for us as well, the ball is on apw's table
<ogra_ac> to commit (or not) to SRU and security uploads
<rsalveti> yeah
<ogra_ac> s/apw/kernel-team/
<rsalveti> so we'll test, cooloney will check the config and the kernel team will give the proper ack
<rsalveti> then we can continue
<rsalveti> no more for kernel I believe
<ogra_ac> right
<ogra_ac> then we need MIRs etc
<ogra_ac> or one MIR
<rsalveti> yeah
<davidm> rsalveti, beagle will go out today, was delayed
<rsalveti> cool :-)
<rsalveti> so I believe janimo will have a new toy to play even during weekend if he wants :-)
<janimo> good :)
<ogra_ac> i cant judge the omap4 kernel
<ogra_ac> GrueMaster, did it work on the images from the 19th ?
<GrueMaster> No.  I have a note in my QA update.
<ogra_ac> k
<ogra_ac> so lets move on
<ogra_ac> NCommander,
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Currently seeing issues with Maverick kernel updates on panda.  Base image works fine.  Once kernel is updated, no monitor output is visible.
<GrueMaster> Last natty image had a kernel segfault during second boot, before X would launch.  Investigating today to see what broke before A1 images appear.
<GrueMaster> Will post a list for checkbox test tweaks this week, barring major image testing issues and sleep depravating meetings.
 * ogra_ac has all kernel updates in maverick on his panda
<GrueMaster> These are the issues I am currently dealing with.
<ogra_ac> and has still fine display output
 * rsalveti too
<rsalveti> probably an issue with the new monitor GrueMaster got
<ogra_ac> yeah
<ogra_ac> dont buy dell ;)
<ogra_ac> we know there are issues with their EDID
<GrueMaster> On the panda, yesterday I started with a fresh image and only updated the kernel.  After rebooting, no video.  This was on my old monitor I used for testing last cycle.
<ogra_ac> ah
<ogra_ac> intresting
<rsalveti> that's weird, works fine for me
<GrueMaster> BTW:  Dell monitor worked fine on released image.
<ogra_ac> did you modify boot.scr in any way ?
<rsalveti> and there wasn't any change that affect the video
<ogra_ac> yeah
<GrueMaster> Not until I started seeing issues.
<ogra_ac> works fine here too wiht a default image upgraded across all -updates/-security kernels
<rsalveti> anyway, needs further debugging
<ogra_ac> right
<ogra_ac> anything else for QA ?
<GrueMaster> Yes, I plan on doing more testing today.  I was distracted yesterday with other issues.
<GrueMaster> None other than what I posted above.
<ogra_ac> NCommander,
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<ogra_ac> should have janimo in the brackets too ;)
<NCommander> Applied a patch today to work around KDE being FTBFS so libproxy woul dbuild getting us closer to A1 images
<NCommander> transmission was deseeded on ARM for a similar reason
 * ogra_ac gave back a good bunch of packages yesterday
<NCommander> both changes will be reverted past A1
<ogra_ac> most of tehm survived the build
<NCommander> looks like we're on track for A1 images. A team first I might add
<ogra_ac> well, we'll see (more in the image section=
<rsalveti> NCommander: I believe we just need a bug to revert this after a1
<ogra_ac> )
<rsalveti> as lool pointed out at the bug
<ogra_ac> yeah, lool asked for one
<ogra_ac> and it makes sense so we dont forget
<NCommander> rsalveti: I'm just going to reopen the bug that we used to revert
<rsalveti> yeah
<ogra_ac> (though i guess ScottK would complain anyway) ;)
<ogra_ac> that u! doesnt work on kubuntu arm
<ogra_ac> *U1
<ScottK> No  I consider that a feature.
<ogra_ac> lol
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra_ac> ScottK, what if i switched to kubuntu now ?
<rsalveti> currently? boom
<ogra_ac> i would complain loudly that i cant use my U1 purchased music
<ogra_ac> :)
<ScottK> You'd want a different architecture thanks to gcc "improvements"
<NCommander> ogra_ac: at least you can use the U1 music store
<ogra_ac> (well, not using natty in production indeed)
<NCommander> Kubuntu users can't without firing up GNOME last time I tried
<ScottK> The regular U1 client works fine as I understand it.
<NCommander> but this is completely off-topic
<ogra_ac> hmm, right
<ogra_ac> anyway, seems thats it for ftbfs
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_ac> bad
<ogra_ac> broken
<ogra_ac> etc etc
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra_ac> NCommander, and i sorted most of the obvious blockers
<ogra_ac> but we dont know if there are subsequent ones yet
<ogra_ac> i will fire off a testbuild after the meeting
<ogra_ac> so we can see
<rsalveti> oh, ok
<ogra_ac> should be usable for A1 i hope
<ogra_ac> but there are more things omn the ftbfs list
<rsalveti> what is the fix date limit, today?
<ogra_ac> rsalveti, thu is A1 release date
<ogra_ac> as long as we have booting images by then its fine
<rsalveti> cool
<ogra_ac> A1 criteria is "bootable"
<ogra_ac> everythig else is nice to have
<rsalveti> got it
<ogra_ac> oh
<ogra_ac> and we obviously dont build omap3 images until the kernel is there
<NCommander> I think that's everything
<NCommander> can we move on?
<ogra_ac> since the old one is gone
<ogra_ac> move
<rsalveti> sure, np
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
 * ogra_ac has something ...
<NCommander> I'd like to tka ea moment to introduce james_w
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> damn it
<ogra_ac> lol
<ogra_ac> hello james_w
<ogra_ac> :P
<rsalveti> another new team member?
<NCommander> janimo:
<ogra_ac> NCommander, nice that you introduce him
<janimo> hello all
<davidm> janimo, welcome
<ogra_ac> hey janimo, welcome to the team
<rsalveti> yeah :-)
<rsalveti> hopefully you'll like it
<janimo> thanks. Any other tasks besides FTBFS that I should start looking into?
<janimo> How are work items assgined?
<janimo> I hope so too :)
<NCommander> janimo: the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?
<ogra_ac> janimo, please look through http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html and see if you like to take over any WIs that intrest you
<rsalveti> yeah, better
<ogra_ac> and let us know so we can assign them to you
<janimo> I see quite a few that are interesting
<rsalveti> janimo: what you generally like to work with?
<janimo> but not sure how much involved other memebers are already in them
<ogra_ac> janimo, so best is to contact the asignee and have him assign items to you
<janimo> rsalveti: once I have hardware as well, things which are close to hw are fine
<rsalveti> see what you'd like to help with, poke the original target member and see
<janimo> I see some of the WIs are assigned to members outside the ARM team
<rsalveti> janimo: cool
<janimo> such as 'make lightspark build on ARM'
<ogra_ac> feel free to take that over from stgraber
<janimo> ok
<ogra_ac> i worked on it with him already
<ogra_ac> and the prob is that lightspark uses a lot of intel SSE assembler
<ogra_ac> that needs to be rewritten completely for arm
<janimo> yep, just read that
<janimo> so not just a pacvkaging task
<ogra_ac> which neither of stgraber or me will have time to do
<ogra_ac> i have packaging fixes
<janimo> I can look at that even if it sounds quite a large task
<ogra_ac> i can get it build up to a point where it gets to the asm stuff
<ogra_ac> but indeed not beyond
<janimo> what I am not yet sue about how ARM/DX/linaro and other upstream teams agree on whose WI something is but will get used to :)
<rsalveti> janimo: generally over uds
<janimo> but any of you feel free to ask/assign me to help out some WI's which you are not yet started with or would rather pass on
<ogra_ac> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html has all WIs we are intrested in from a canonical-arm POV
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html has all WIs we are intrested in from a canonical-arm POV
<rsalveti> during the discussion of the bp
<ogra_ac> the wider community view should be on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<janimo> but canonical-arm is the priority?
<ogra_ac> NCommander, can you please remove the *pitti from the links in the wiki ?
<rsalveti> janimo: also starts following linaro
<ogra_ac> janimo, for canonical work stuff, yeah
<NCommander> ogra_ac: k
<ogra_ac> NCommander, that has to be ~platform
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to fix workitem links
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to fix workitem links
<davidm> janimo, yes for canonical work stuff
<rsalveti> join #linaro, linaro's m-l and etc, we generally have overlap with them
<ogra_ac> they have packages they care about which we usually only rarely touch (i.e. toolchain)
<ogra_ac> and they have different requirements
<ogra_ac> so talking to them usually makes sense
<NCommander> ogra_ac: I think we should take this to another channel TBH
<NCommander> I'm ready to close out the meeting
 * ogra_ac still has an item :P
<janimo> ok. Especially since some FTBFS have toolchain implications
<rsalveti> janimo: yeah
<rsalveti> ogra: move on
<ogra_ac> right, talk to linaro, they have good toolchain experts
<ogra_ac> well, i'm on vacation from monday on til end of the year
<ogra_ac> having to burn all my vacation days
<ogra_ac> i will likely still be online on IRC here and there
<ogra_ac> but dont ask me about work :P
<rsalveti> ogra_ac: cool, enjoy :-)
<rsalveti> found anywhere to travel already?
<GrueMaster> we never do.  :P
<janimo> ogra_ac: have a relaxing time!
<ogra_ac> i only need to collect some miles, will likely just do a one day flight to some far but cheap place
<janimo> iceland?
<ogra_ac> beyond that i will care for my house
<ogra_ac> janimo, to close sadly
 * NCommander is glad to know he's not the only one flying on occession for status :-)
<ogra_ac> i considered it ;)
<NCommander> The joys of mileage running
<janimo> ogra_ac: not if you go via mumbai
<ogra_ac> NCommander, i wont do that twice in my life
<ogra_ac> janimo, but then it gets to expensive ;)
<ogra_ac> mumbai was also on the list btw ;)
<janimo> moscow?
<ogra_ac> but anyway, lets not get to much off topic
<ogra_ac> to close again ;)
<rsalveti> :-)
<janimo> ok
<rsalveti> any other topics?
<ogra_ac> (and to cold)
 * ogra_ac has nothing
<janimo> so I'll probably start asking team members if they want to pass me some WIs
<ogra_ac> yeah, do that
<janimo> so I can do some more focused work for alpha2
<ogra_ac> we didnt really have much for A1
<janimo> but you can also start telling me about WIs you could use help with
<ogra_ac> indeed
<NCommander> Ok, I'm going to close the meetin gout just caue we're going offtopic
<NCommander> janimo: ogra_ac: lets move this to ubuntu-arm
<NCommander> Closing in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:54.
<mdz> cjwatson, kees, Keybuk, pitti, sabdfl: ping
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:59. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> hello
<mdz> [topic] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2010-November/000784.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2010-November/000784.html
<mdz> I missed the previous meeting, so please correct me if I've missed anything
<pitti> KDE microversion SRU docs has happened
<mdz> it looks like there were no actions per se, though there were a couple of things which should be back on the agenda for this meeting
<mdz> couchdb & U1 on 10.04
<pitti> right, the couchdb SRU and post-maverick updates
<mdz> pitti: what is the status of the ARB exception proposal?
<pitti> it was discussed a bit after the last meeting, but I didn't see much news there
<mdz> ok
<pitti> it sounded like 90% of an agreement
<wendar> we ran out of time
<mdz> is Chipaca around?
<pitti> hey wendar
<wendar> hi pitti
<mdz> hi Chipaca
<Chipaca> hi mdz
<wendar> I've got a reply in the moderation queue again, if someone could give it a push before we get to that point in the agenda
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<mdz> wendar: there are no messages in the moderation queue for technical-board
<pitti> wendar: ah, your reply just hit the list
<mdz> [topic] couchdb lucid backport SRU - John Lenton
<MootBot> New Topic:  couchdb lucid backport SRU - John Lenton
<mdz> so I missed the previous meeting, but have talked with Chipaca a little bit out of band
<pitti> that was also discussed on the TB ML
<pitti> with some updates from yesterday/today
<mdz> according to the minutes, the TB proposed an alternative solution and asked the U1 team to evaluate it
<mdz> ah, I hadn't read the latest
<mdz> pitti: would you like to guide the discussion?
<pitti> the alternative solution was proposed to ship a separate couchdb-1.0 package in lucid-updates
<pitti> mdz: yes, can do
<pitti> hello Chipaca
<Chipaca> I need to bbiab, this battery is running out and i've got the wrong charger. give me a minute please.
<mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000590.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000590.html
<mdz> is the latest from Chipaca on the mailing list
<pitti> right, and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000592.html my latest reply
<mdz> so Chipaca is saying that it's not feasible, from the sound of it
<pitti> I'm interested in why
<Chipaca> hi, back
<mdz>  * while we can introduce a couchdb-1.0-bin package into 10.04 to
<mdz>    address this issue, we can't really make it co-exist on the same
<mdz>    machine wiht a 0.10 couchdb-bin, so it would have to conflict with
<mdz>    it; additionally, we'd have to get a SRU for a client package in
<mdz>    10.04 (either desktopcouch or ubuntuone-client would work) so that
<mdz>    the 1.0 package gets pulled in, and an additional SRU for 10.10 to
<mdz>    get the dependency fixed.
<pitti> when we update the main couchdb package, I'd frankly feel overwhelmed, and that we deliberately break API and stability (and thus working setups) in favor of enabling features
<mdz> pitti, I believe you questioned the co-existence point
<pitti> right, I'm curious why it wouldn't work
<mdz> I'm inferring from Chipaca's tone that perhaps it just seems like too much work
<Chipaca> it could be made to work, in the "it's just software" sense. We can't make it work in that it would be a big change, as we'd have to add code to let desktopcouch start the right version of couch
<pitti> and AFAIK it doesn't auto-migrate existing databases over to the 1.0 format, right?
<Chipaca> couchdb auto-migrates, yes
<Chipaca> the way we're shipping the system couchdb explicitly avoids the auto-migration
<Chipaca> by adding the version number to the path to the database
<pitti> so this would help making both co-installable
<Chipaca> what does co-installation try to fix?
<mdz> Chipaca: it seems like decoupling desktopcouch from the system-wide couchdb might be a good long-term move
<mdz> it would enable you to update "your" couchdb without risking breakage in other couchdb applications
<pitti> Chipaca: not breaking the database API for existing insallations
<mdz> Chipaca: otherwise we will surely face exactly this same choice the next time you want to update
<mdz> do you need help getting the packaging right?
<mdz> or do you feel this is not the best solution?
<Chipaca> the problem is not the packaging, which yes I will probably need help with because of resources, the problem is afaik starting and connecting to the "right" couchdb from desktopcouch
<pitti> if we can auto-migrate user databases, then we could switch desktopcouch to use 1.0?
<pitti> as far as I remember, the desktopcouch API wouldn't change
<Chipaca> right, we'd update the desktopcouch package to depend on 1.0, and then we'd have to make desktopcouch start 1.0
<mdz> Chipaca: I guess I don't understand why that's hard
<pitti> and don't we need to do that either way?
<pitti> adapting desktopcouch to start 1.0, I mean
<mdz> start_local_couchdb.py seems pretty straightforward
<thisfred> pitti: well not if it were the only couchdb :)
<thisfred> mdz, not super hard, it just means an extra SRU
<mdz> it looks like it will already DTRT if the COUCHDB environment variable is set to an alternative binary
<thisfred> which I don't think we'll get around anyway
<Chipaca> and modifying desktopcouch in that sru in a way that won't be as tested as what we're replacing
<mdz> thisfred: an extra compared to what?
<mdz> surely desktopcouch needs to be updated anyway
<Chipaca> the difference is between updating just the packaging, and updating the code also
<thisfred> mdz, it would not if we updated the system couchdb
<thisfred> which I know we won't
<mdz> thisfred: so if a 10.04 system gets couchdb updated to 1.0, the broken bits of U1 start working with no other changes?
<thisfred> yep
<Chipaca> pitti: the difference is that if we make the packages conflict, we get away with not touching desktopcouch code, which is a good thing for a stable release, right?
<pitti> well, it's not the lines of code that we change
<pitti> by that measure, introducing a new package would be way off scale
<pitti> it's about the greatest possible damage we can do to existing working setups
<pitti> Chipaca: if we make the packages conflict, then we couldn't pull in couchdb-1.0 automatically during upgrade
<pitti> since couchdb is already installed
<pitti> and the entire exercise would be moot, wouldn't it?
<mdz> pitti++
<mdz> it's about risk
<rickspencer3> may I offer my opinion?
<mdz> of course
<rickspencer3> (even if people won't like it?)
<pitti> and we can't just force-remove couchdb
<pitti> rickspencer3: please
<rickspencer3> My view is that CouchDB missed the Lucid the train
<rickspencer3> I understand this is painful as we would like to provide services to Lucid users
<rickspencer3> However, I feel this effort is now misdirected
<mdz> I think there is a way this could be done which would sufficiently contain the risk to 10.04 users, such that we would be comfortable releasing it
<thisfred> I respectfully disagree, I think the side-by-side solution is still worth the (little extra) effort, if the TB approves it
<mdz> but it will be up to the U1 team whether that effort would be well spent
<rickspencer3> it's not just effort on their part
<pitti> right, with pretty much parallel packages
<thisfred> pitti: yep
<rickspencer3> this will cause effort to be expended across the organization
<mdz> it may be that effort would be better invested in making the changes in natty such that we can issue future updates without a problem
<rickspencer3> and Chipaca already said they lack the resources themselves to do proper packaging
<pitti> thisfred: I have no objections against a side-by-side approach; it still requires a formal exceptoin, as it's outside of the usual SRU boundaries, but it has a manageable risk, so I'd agree to it
<mdz> I'm with pitti
<rickspencer3> well, I don't think it's worth the risk or the effort
<pitti> but yes, mdz raises a good point -- we should make sure that if this happens again we are better prepared
<rickspencer3> and the effort is not just on the U1 team
<pitti> perhaps we should have a separate desktopdouch-server package which just talks to desktopcouch, and not use the "official" couchdb package at all
<mdz> rickspencer3: fair point, there is other effort involved which perhaps we haven't included in our implicit estimate
<mdz> I'm not prepared to offer the U1 team advice on whether this is worth it or not, at least not with my TB hat on
<mdz> but they are welcome to ask me for my Canonical opinion separately
<rickspencer3> mdz, well, with my Director of Engineering hat on, I feel I should offer my views
<thisfred> just as a thought experiment, if we were to put couchdb 1.0 in backports
<thisfred> would that be acceptable?
<pitti> yes IMHO
<rickspencer3> isn't that specifically what backports if for?
<pitti> we make no promises wrt. API stability in backports
<Chipaca> backports are not enabled by default, right?
<pitti> correct
<Chipaca> ok
<mdz> I do feel that, based on the analysis I've seen, and the survey results, updating the couchdb package itself is not in the best interest of our user base as a whole
<pitti> which is why we can be liberal there
<thisfred> Of course most people using lucid for stability reasons won't have backports on...
<mdz> rickspencer3: you absolutely should. I'm just explaining why I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you :-)
<pitti> thisfred: so people who care about U1 syncing, and don't need existing couchdb could just grab it from backports, you mean?
<rickspencer3> right
<thisfred> pitti: yeah
<mdz> couchdb 1.0 in backports is OK with me as well, and I expect the backports team would be amenable
<thisfred> pitti: though the downside is that they'd have to be made aware of this
<pitti> it would mean backports of couchdb and desktopcouch; anything else?
<mdz> thisfred: it would also entail testing both upgrade paths, if you want to support those users properly
<thisfred> pitti: nope, and not even desktopcouch if we don't do the parallel install there
<aquarius> thisfred, couch 1.0 doesn't need a newer spidermonkey?
<pitti> thisfred: lucid's desktopcouch doesn't need updates to talk to an 1.0 couchdb API? that did change
<thisfred> pitti: no, the API (that desktopcouch cares about) did not change between 0.10 and 1.0
<pitti> thisfred: but anyway, I could even envision an SRU which checks for this situation if you try to enable non-file sync, and guides you to a website which explains the situation and how to install backports
<thisfred> pitti: we'd only need to make changes to d-c if we were to have the parallel install
<pitti> thisfred: ok, then couchdb backport plus changes to point to documentation ("install couchdb from backports; don't if you have existing couchdb...") seems feasible?
<mdz> option 1: parallel package couchdb 1.0, update desktopcouch to use it, and release via SRU exception
<mdz> option 2: parallel package couchdb 1.0, update desktopcouch to use it, and release via backports
<thisfred> aquarius: I thought not, but that still doesn't impact desktopcouch. It would mean another SRU if it's true and we don't go the backports route
<Chipaca> oh, I was reading option 2 as non-parallel
<mdz> option 3: update couchdb to 1.0 in backports, superseding 0.1 in lucid
<pitti> mdz: I think option 2 is "backport maverick couchdb", no parallel install, right?
<Chipaca> ah
<pitti> ah, right
<Chipaca> it's 0.10, not 0.1 :)
<mdz> Chipaca: sorry
<mdz> s/0.1/0.10/
<pitti> I think we can rule out 2
<pitti> it's almost as much effort as 1 but a lot less benefit
<thisfred> right
<mdz> ok
<rickspencer3> mdz is there not an option to simply move on?
<Chipaca> and about the sru of the control panel to alert users of the availability of the fix, is tehre agreement on that?
<mdz> option 4: do nothing, focus on natty, move on
<mdz> rickspencer3: yes!
<rickspencer3> :)
<mdz> any other options?
<Chipaca> mdz: does option 2 include the ubuntuone-preferences sru to alert users of the issue?
<Chipaca> um, option 3 i meant
<pitti> mdz's option list seems complete to me
<aquarius> "option 5: backport 1.0 to lucid, breaking people who are reliant on specific aspects of 0.10 in lucid" is entirely off the table, yes?
<mdz> Chipaca: I'm not familiar with that idea
<aquarius> (er, s/backport/SRU/, sorry)
<Chipaca> <pitti> thisfred: but anyway, I could even envision an SRU which checks for this situation if you try to enable non-file sync, and guides you to a website which explains the situation and how to install backports
<Chipaca> mdz: ^
<rickspencer3> wow
<pitti> aquarius: I'd vote against it, so you'd need to convince another majority of the TB
<aquarius> pitti, just making sure the option list is complete. :)
<mdz> aquarius: I'm with pitti
<pitti> aquarius: but yes, it'd complete the option list
<mdz> Chipaca: thinking
<rickspencer3> well, I guess there are options that the TB would accept, and then options that Ubuntu Engineering would be willing to support with resources
<rickspencer3> that list may not be the same
<mdz> so this would be a minimal SRU which changed the software to notify the user of the situation and how to proceed?
<pitti> (raises some questions wrt. adding translatable strings, and translating the web page, but I think we could fit that in)
<mdz> I think that could be done in a way that would be acceptable to the SRU team
<pitti> or skip the web page and try to come up with a short text
<mdz> any objections to dropping option 2 because it's dominated by the others?
<thisfred> mdz +1 on dropping 2.
<mdz> done
<mdz> option 1: parallel package couchdb 1.0, update desktopcouch to use it, and release via SRU exception
<mdz> option 3: update couchdb to 1.0 in backports, superseding 0.1 in lucid
<mdz> option 4: do nothing, focus on natty, move on
<pitti> mdz: +1 on dropping 2
<pitti> thisfred, aquarius: hm, we could even check if there are local systemwide couchdbs
<pitti> and only show that note if there aren't
<mdz> benefits of 1: might make future updates easier
<mdz> costs of 1: relatively large development and testing effort
<mdz> benefits of 3: relatively small development and testing effort
<aquarius> pitti, which is basically defined by "do you have the couchdb package installed", because that's what provides the system couchdb (d-c depends on couchdb-bin, which provides the binaries etc but not the init scripts and so on)
<pitti> 1 sounds like a good future path from natty on (i. e. have a desktopcouch-private couchdb server package)
<mdz> benefits of 3: zero impact to users who do not use U1
<pitti> aquarius: could be; that, or checking the data dir
<mdz> disadvantages of 3: more fiddly for users who do use U1
<pitti> mdz: "... want to use more features of U1"
<mdz> pitti: ack
<mdz> benefits of 4: zero development and testing effort, strong focus on current development and forward momentum
<mdz> disadvantage of 4: disappoint people who want the new features on LTS
<mdz> what else have I missed?
<aquarius> mdz: "...who want the *existing* features on LTS"
<Chipaca> another disadvantage of 4: for a non-ignorable number of people, ubuntu one will (continue to be) "just file sync"
<mdz> aquarius: did they actually lose features they had when 10.04 came out?
<pitti> mdz: thanks for summarizing; looks complete to me
<Chipaca> mdz: yes, the features worked on release
<Chipaca> mdz: and then buckled under load
<mdz> ok, so we had to regress them in order to get it working for anybody
<rickspencer3> well, it worked on the client, but from the users point of view, it did not work
<mdz> and they probably didn't use it for very long
<mdz> in effect, it shipped without the functionality, no?
<mdz> it = 10.04
<rickspencer3> in effect
<mdz> is there anything more for the TB to decide?
<rickspencer3> you could/can store data in couchdb, but there is no syncing and it fails silently
<thisfred> in effect yes, as we had to disable replication on the server very soon after release
<Chipaca> i disagree with rickspencer3, but I know we disagree
<mdz> we've outlined multiple options and evaluated the pros and cons, I think the final call is up to the U1 team as to which is the best use of their energy
<pitti> with my TB hat on, I'd approve any of 1, 3, 4
<pitti> with my developer hat on, I think we should at least do 3
<mdz> we have another item on the agenda which wendar has been waiting patiently to discuss
<pitti> then clean up the situation in natty (with an approach like 1)
<pitti> and then perhaps reconsider later on if this can be backported
<Chipaca> mdz: to make things clear, we decide which way forward is best, and the TB approves of it?
<Chipaca> of these options
<pitti> sounds fine
<pitti> Chipaca: but it seems you can do any of above option, and it'd get the TB's approval
<mdz> Chipaca: yes, pretty much. I think we need some oversight on the details if it's 1 or 3
<mdz> so we should stay in touch
<mdz> but you would have our blessing
<Chipaca> ok, thank you
<mdz> [topic] ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
<mdz> wendar, thanks for your patience
<wendar> IIRC, there's another meeting here on the hour. A quick summary:
<wendar> - Allow .desktop files to be installed outside /opt.
<wendar> - In Natty, we'll modify Quickly, cdbs, python-support, and related packages o support installation in /opt.
<wendar> - For Maverick, accept that .pyc files and version symlinks won't be generated for Python libraries.
<wendar> - For Maverick, ARB will perform manual package fixes on proposed applications, to install in /opt and load libraries from /opt.
<wendar> - Binaries only in /opt (no exceptions for Maverick), will not be in $PATH.
<wendar> - Official install location is /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<packagename> (with version number? i.e. "/opt/extras.ubuntu.com/foo-1.5")
<pitti> (for the record, natty's cdbs/quickly/etc. already support this)
<wendar> The last we would especially like decided today, as the modifications for Natty packages are ready to go but waiting on that path to be finalized before merging.
<persia> Why except .desktop files: couldn't they be pulled by extending DefaultAppDirs in some package in extras upon which things depend?
<wendar> persia: no part of the system knows how to pull .desktop files from non-standard paths
<mdz> wendar: I'm a bit concerned on behalf of the ARB about the expectation that they will fix up the packages as needed
<wendar> persia: we can modify it for Natty, but not for Maverick
<mdz> but I guess you can speak for yourselves on that point?
<wendar> mdz: yes, that manual work is not something we could do for the long-term, but for Maverick we have few submissions
<wendar> mdz: only 4 at the moment
<persia> wendar, The menu-xdg package has an implementation that pulls from /var/lib/menu-xdg/applications/menu-xdg
<pitti> persia: can you extend the .desktop search path with an extra conffile?
<persia> pitti, Yep.
<pitti> (I know, *I* ought to know this, but I don't, sorry)
<persia> Well, I should say you *could*.  I haven't dug deeply in menus for > 18 months.
<mdz> wendar: binaries only in /opt = "binaries nowhere else but in /opt", not "nothing in /opt which is not a binary", right?
<wendar> persia: can we modify it to pull .desktop files from /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/applications without modifying any system packages?
<pitti> /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu just says <DefaultAppDirs/>
<pitti> but my concern is that this would need modification of gnome-menus, the KDE counterpart, and any other desktop env
<persia> wendar, I believe so, but it would take me a few hours to chase the how.
<pitti> mdz: confirmed; it's "no files outside /opt", except perhaps .desktop
<wendar> pitti: yes
<mdz> the .pyc and symlink stuff is definitely OK by me
<mdz> if the ARB is ok with fixing up the packages, I'm OK with t hat too
<mdz> no-binaries-outside-of-/opt seems sensible enough
<mdz> the extras.ubuntu.com path also sounds fine
<mdz> so the only question is about how to handle .desktop files?
<wendar> yes, just .desktop
<mdz> I don't know how many programs use /usr/share/applications
<wendar> and, whether to use the path /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/
<mdz> but AIUI the standardized interface is the filesystem
<persia> mdz, ~90%, and everything with a menu entry uses that or a subdirectory.
<wendar> mdz: the intention is that most of these apps will be using .desktop files
<mdz> is it not workable to install the .desktop files in /opt and symlink them to /usr?
<wendar> mdz: yes, a symlink would be workable
<mdz> persia: I meant, how many programs *read* the list of .desktop files
<wendar> mdz: it would still pollute the general namespace, but preserves the principle of "install in /opt"
<mdz> wendar: a symlink would at least give correct behavior if the stuff in /opt went away
<persia> Oh.  Six, last I counted (7.10)
<mdz> but if that's managed by the package manager, I don't suppose that's a problem
<pitti> I don't see much difference between symlink and actually installing into /u/s/a/, but symlink sounds fine
<mdz> I'm happy either way
<mdz> pitti: I was thinking of opt as something which is managed outside of the package manager, but in this case of course it isn 't
<wendar> okay, so approved a symlink for .desktop files outside /opt?
<mdz> I was worried about dangling .deskto pfiles
<pitti> wendar: would be interesting to investigate enlarging the search path in natty
<wendar> and I'll work with persia to see if we can get actual load from /opt working
<pitti> to pick up desktop files in /opt
<mdz> wendar: I think it's unnecessary complexity, installing directly in /usr should be OK
<mdz> (installing .desktop files in /usr, I mean, of course)
<pitti> ^ especially since these get manual review for sanity
<persia> wendar, Sounds good.  I know we have some implementations that *change* the menu files in various ways with additional packages: just needs some digging to get the right XML.
<wendar> then, approved to install .desktop files in /opt, if we can't find a workaround for Maverick
<wendar> for Natty, we should have .desktop files in /opt working
<mdz> we don't actually have a quorum of the TB here, I don't think
<pitti> wendar: you mean "approved .. in /usr/s/apps/"
<mdz> so if you need an official vote or something, we'll have to take it to email
<wendar> pitti: aye
<mdz> but it sounds sane to me
<pitti> but that has already been brought up on the list without opposition
<mdz> we need to clear out to let the server team have their meeting
<pitti> great
<wendar> then, last thing: /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/?
<pitti> +1 (as I said on the ML)
<mdz> wendar: I said +1 above as well
<mdz> done?
<wendar> done, thanks!
<mdz> I don't see anything else on the mailing list
<mdz> so that's a wrap, thanks all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:06.
<pitti> thanks all
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<Daviey> \o/
<JamesPage> o/
<hallyn_> \o
<JamesPage> looks like most folk are here so lets make a start
<robbiew> *\o/*
<JamesPage> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:07. The chair is JamesPage.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kirkland> o/
<jj-afk> \o
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<JamesPage> ALL: please check the SRU tracker https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker and help out with verification
<ttx> o/
<JamesPage> so hows that going for everyone?
<hggdh> \life is good, and Hudson kicks
<zul> hi
<Daviey> JamesPage: pretty good!
<hallyn_> JamesPage: well, so i'm still not 100% clear on what we do with those
<hallyn_> do we set up an environment to test the fix in, so we can comment 'fix works'?
<zul> umm...that page is really really old
<JamesPage> zul: do you have a more up-to-date view...
<hallyn_> robbiew had given us one
<hallyn_> i wonder if i pasted the wrong link two weeks ago into the action
<zul> JamesPage: http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<hallyn_> i thought that one was old too
<zul> hallyn_: nope thats the latest and greatest as of this morning
<JamesPage> Is the concern the size of the 'unassigned bugs' list?
<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> this time stinks for me btw.
<SpamapS> JamesPage: the concern is actually the verification needed bugs
<JamesPage> SpamapS: right - I think that answers the question
<hallyn_> does it?
<JamesPage> So its about testing SRU's which are in -proposed and need to be verified (only four at the moment)
<robbiew> the verification needed bugs list is short, right?
<SpamapS> JamesPage: 4 is a lot IMO.. those are bugs that are fixed and just need to be checked out.
<hallyn_> ok.  presumably we really ought to lean on the bug submitter to test?
<Daviey> I think this requires a whole agenda item.... "SRU:  What it means to us ":)
<hallyn_> but, failing that, we set up a hardy image or whatever and d oit?
<hggdh> d oit?
<SpamapS> hallyn_: no the idea is to have somebody who is not the submitter test
<Daviey> hallyn_: The release / QA team are currently discussing a best pratice for verification
<zul> SpamapS: compared to the unassigned bugs and assigned bugs 4 is not alot
<SpamapS> hggdh: its french for "get 'er done"
<Daviey> it is bad form for the bug raiser and fixer to verify their own work.
<hallyn_> hggdh: my space key seems to have a longer travel depth than other keys
<hggdh> heh
<JamesPage> OK before we get to bogged down in this
<hallyn_> Daviey: ok
<JamesPage> The immediate focus is to verify the 'needs-verification' bugs
<JamesPage> SpamapS: we carried this over from last weeks meeting as you where due to submit a proposal
<JamesPage> I suggest we carry again until this is agreed and try to put some immediate focus on the current list.
<Daviey> +1
<SpamapS> Agreed, I'll send the proposal ASAP as well.
<JamesPage> [ACTION] ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html for 'needs-verification' bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html for 'needs-verification' bugs
<JamesPage> robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<hggdh> +1 -- it might be a good thing to go on over the unassigned list and (perhaps) clean it up
<SpamapS> hggdh: I think its probably time to start marking dapper bugs Won't Fix
<hggdh> SpamapS: it might. But we need a clear ack from management
<robbiew> yeah....that's a todo for this week...the f*$#ing wiki!!! lol
<SpamapS> I thought in the final year it was "security only" ?
<JamesPage> ok carried forward
<zul> SpamapS: desktop i think
<JamesPage> [ACTION] robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki
 * SpamapS has no idea where or even if thats written down
<Daviey> defacto :)
<JamesPage> SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<SpamapS> JamesPage: right, same thing, carry to next week
 * SpamapS will send it RSN
<JamesPage> [ACTION] SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<JamesPage> Next: Kernel team to follow up on EC2 status
<Daviey> smb / jjohansen ?
<jjohansen> have done some testing with Bug #669496
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669496 in linux (Ubuntu) "natty fails ec2 boot on i386 or t1.micro" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669496
<jjohansen> and we may have a solution, but it needs more testing first
<Daviey> \o/
<jjohansen> iscsi target has a newer version being built in dkms so we are planning to drop it for the kernel proper
<Daviey> jjohansen: Is the kernel team testing that, or is it smoser ?
<jjohansen> Daviey: I have been playing with it, and once we verify we will hand over to smoser to test
<Daviey> rocking
<jjohansen> I just don't trust my results from yesterday :)
<Daviey> jjohansen: Is it likely to be resolved before thursday (if your fix works) ?
<jjohansen> hrmmm, maybe
<smoser> oh hey.
<jjohansen> that is we can submit the fix (assuming I get the same results)
<jjohansen> but it maybe to late for the kernel already
<Daviey> just wondering if we are likely to see the fix in Alpha 1 release.
<smoser> jjohansen, i'll bother you outside of meeting, i had accepted there would be no i386 amis for alpha1
<jjohansen> generally kernel fixes need to be in a week before other stuff
<smoser> but i surely would be grateful if it happened to work
<jjohansen> well I booted a couple i386 amis last night
<Daviey> \o/
<JamesPage> OK so anything else for the Kernel team on ec2 status for natty?
<smoser> if it is low risk to other things, i would say go for it.
<jjohansen> smoser: well its sort of low risk, it involves turning off pv-on-hvm
<smoser> yuck
<jjohansen> yeah
<JamesPage> Next ACTION to review: Kernel team to follow up on bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<jjohansen> smb: was looking into this, and I don't believe their is any resolution yet
<jjohansen> at least I don't see anything in my notes from him
<smb> waiting on feedback
<jjohansen> oh, \o/
<jjohansen> morning smb :)
<smb> still on phone typing one handed
<jjohansen> I was just about to say, found it "no usable feedback"
<SpamapS> smb: eyes on the road!
<ttx> tmi
<Daviey> !
<JamesPage> Do we want to carry this one to next week?
<SpamapS> sounds like it
<JamesPage> [ACTION] Kernel team to follow up on bug 661294
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Kernel team to follow up on bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<JamesPage> Moving on....
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
 * SpamapS hears crickets
<hallyn_> i sure do wish firefox plugins work, but other than that natty is treating me well :)
<SpamapS> I think its about time we set the trend line here: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server.html
<SpamapS> Unless anybody has some giant new stuff they expect to land in their BP's soon?
<jjohansen> hallyn_: what video card because X keeps dying on me
<SpamapS> I'll go ahead and do that as I have commit access to the wi tracker.
<hallyn_> i do need to make my bp work items lists more precise
<hallyn_> jjohansen: oh, nvidia is a fail for me right now.  non-accelerated nouveau
<ttx> SpamapS: who needs a trends line set when there is... inverted burndown charts !
<jjohansen> ah, I'm using an intel igp - can't even make it to the desktop :(
<SpamapS> hallyn_: I think its actually better to keep them coarse and just try to get a gross estimate of the work so you can plan accordingly. Precision at this stage can sometimes lock us into a course of action that doesn't make sense.
<JamesPage> Daviey, zul, kirkland, smoser - are you guys happy with the state of your wi's before we do this?
<SpamapS> ttx: I don't think anybody else liked those except you and me. ;)
<hallyn_> SpamapS: hm, i guess i'm just not comfortable with work items in a bunch of blueprints instead of just one :)
<ttx> SpamapS: We are the only true admirers of real art. Like the bp lp api.
<SpamapS> JamesPage: its entirely changable too, so no big deal if people add more later.
<kirkland> JamesPage: meh, happy enough
<SpamapS> but it seems like we have a decent number.. 360
<smoser> well, my blueprints correctly show my poor progress
<zul> doesnt matter either way to me
<Daviey> JamesPage: I can't see a problem with starting now
<SpamapS> ttx: indeed
<JamesPage> [ACTION] SpamapS to setup trend line for server team natty work items
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to setup trend line for server team natty work items
<JamesPage> done
<SpamapS> BP's are getting an API btw.
<SpamapS> if any of you missed that
<hallyn_> i did.  yay
<robbiew> fwiw, I'd rather have coarse WIs than none at all
<ttx> SpamapS: Christmas is early, maybe Dec 8.
<Daviey> ttx: My calendar says otherwise!
<ttx> Daviey: I use a metric calendar.
<robbiew> ttx: could you guys get us sortable/customizable bug columns while you're at it
<robbiew> :)
<JamesPage> OK so if we are done with Natty development lets move onto....
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> k
<ttx> robbiew: that migth be asking too much. It's already a miracle to get the Api while BP are still planned to be merged with bugs, long-term :)
<hggdh> I have a blocker -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/676245
<Daviey> :(
<Daviey> smb / jjohansen ^^ ?
<Daviey> (That is blocking our test rig)
<hggdh> Tim is working on it, but we need it for alpha1 testing
<hallyn_> bug 676245
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 676245 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "Broadcom NetXtreme II BCM5709 -- no network found on ISO install" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/676245
<jjohansen> hggdh: oh, not nice
<jjohansen> I know its being looked at
<smb> And the first time we probably hear of it?
<jjohansen> actually tim was talking about it this morning
<smb> I think JFo was mentioning that a bit ago on kernel
<jjohansen> yeah
<smb> Cannot say much there. Just finished a phone call
<JFo> yep :)
<jjohansen> I don't think there is much to say beyond tim assigned
<hggdh> yes, I am just raising up the issue -- we have not been able to test either Euca or openstack
<hggdh> on Natty
<jjohansen> :(
<hggdh> apart from that -- thanks to JamesPage, Hudson is up & running on AWS
<hggdh> so if you want to add slave machines to it... Welcome! and ping James or me to add you as an user
<JamesPage> hggdh - we also have a first set of ISO install test results - not to bad
<hggdh> indeed -- only 4 failures, and I will be looking at them in a few
<JamesPage> ping me afterwards - I took a look at some of them today.
<JamesPage> hggdh: anything else from the QA team?
<zul> where is the url for the hudson server anyways?
<hggdh> I also added the ISO server results to the QA dashboard (WIP):
<JamesPage> You can access it here : http://204.236.234.12:8080/
<hggdh> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<hggdh> the page is not yet updated, BTW
 * Daviey actions JamesPage to arrange a URL for it. :)
<Daviey> subdomain
<JamesPage> Daviey: agreed
<hggdh> for the record, this Hudson server is *temporarily* on AWS, we intend to move it later on
<JamesPage> [ACTION] JamesPage to arrange URL for Hudson CI Server
<MootBot> ACTION received:  JamesPage to arrange URL for Hudson CI Server
<hggdh> and that's it, right now, from QA
<JamesPage> Excellent
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Daviey> I think they've already done a dandy job of telling us quite a bit
<jjohansen> hrmm, I don't have any updates beyond what has already been covered
<smb> jjohansen, Did we ask about iscsitarget?
<jjohansen> Ah, well I mentioned it in the wrong place but yeah
<jjohansen> hrmm, though I made it more a statement than a request
<JamesPage> Anything else from the QA team
<JamesPage> /QA/Kernel/
<smb> jjohansen, If the statement was "I don't think you still need that" and nobody ran screaming it is ok. :)
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<Daviey> no sommer :(
<JamesPage> sommer around today?
<jjohansen> smb: well more we are removing it because there is a newer dkms, and no one ran screaming :)
<JamesPage> anyone spoken to sommer since UDS?
<Daviey> jjohansen: We'll scream if it breaks :P
<jjohansen> Daviey: I know you will
<smb> Sounded like everybody was using the dkms version anyway
<smb> So there would be no change
<Daviey> groovy
<zul> iscsitarget is already using dkms isnt it?
<SpamapS> JamesPage: no, but I believe he was starting a new job so he may not have had as much time to be on IRC or work on Ubuntu
<smb> zul, Yes as far as we know
<smb> I think its just the same as once with drbd
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<kim0> hey everyone o/
<JamesPage> o/
<kim0> I just started showcasing Ubuntu Cloud stuff through a screencast series. If anyone has suggestions on cool things to demo that set apart Ubuntu server and Cloud, please throw me an email. I need to create a list of things to showcase, so flood me :)
<kim0> Other than that, I'm interested in identifying "things the community can help with" as it related to cloud for now
<kim0> I'm thinking perhaps UEC QA scenarios might be a good one ? I know the Fedora community helps with lots of the testing, is it a good idea to start doing the same. Who would be interested to push this forward. Can we setup a public UEC testing environment?
<kim0> So if anyone working on a cloud related BP can identify "low hanging fruit" (as in fixes/features/QA) to engage more community involvment, please shoot me an email. I need to create a list, and start beating the drum. Your help is needed, so again flood me :)
<Daviey> kim0: last question, probably no at the moment
<kim0> any thoughts on low hanging fruit .. are most welcome
<Daviey> kim0: How are the cloud community meetings going?
<kim0> Daviey: the QA ones ?
<Daviey> kim0: the meeting you were driving :)
<kim0> The first one was good
<kim0> not too busy though
<kim0> but we did make use of the full hour
<Daviey> great!
<kim0> it's weekly
<kim0> so another one is tomorrow
<kim0> I'll try to put some training
<Daviey> kim0: Plug it here :)
<kim0> stuff in there
<kim0> Is it better to use #ubuntu-cloud or here
<kim0> anyway .. that should be all for me
<SpamapS> those meetings are at 7am pacific time btw
<SpamapS> I'm not saying it because I can't make it..
<SpamapS> but because the mecca of all web 2.0 / cloud technology.. san francisco .. can't make it
 * kim0 nods 
<kim0> prolly needs a time change
<JamesPage> Any other questions for kim0
<JamesPage> ?
<Daviey> none here
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<JamesPage> Any items for general discussion?
<Daviey> none here
<SpamapS> nay say they
<Daviey> Can we go home now? :)
<JamesPage> Almost[TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<kim0> haha :)
<JamesPage> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<JamesPage> :-)
 * bjf is drumming his fingers
<JamesPage> Tuesday 2010-12-07 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<JamesPage> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:02.
<SpamapS> JamesPage: awesome, thanks!!
<bjf> #
<bjf> # lets "get 'er done"!
<bjf> #
<JFo> o/
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<smb> \o
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<cking> o/
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jjohansen> \o
<apw> o/
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<bjf>    * Nothing new this week.
<bjf>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<bjf>    * Discussed merging their latest 2.6.35 BSP to our kernel tree. Might be Maverick.
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<bjf>    * Tested Linaro 2.6.35 prebuilt kernel and Linaro 2.6.37 based kernel from their tree on OMAP Beagle board.
<bjf>    * Linaro kernel works fine with Maverick and Natty minimal root file system.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (6 bugs, 14 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (14 across all packages (up 1)) ====
<JFo>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (103 across all packages (up 8)) ====
<JFo>  * 5 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 6 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:142 (up 2) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> * Started on the list of bugs from the 5 teams that we identified as being where our most critical bugs come from.
<JFo>   The list is available in its current form: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/jfo/kernel-buglist-by-team.html
<JFo>   It is still very rudimentary, but your feedback on it is still welcome.
<JFo> * I've also changed the bugs with patches item to in progress due to my initial review of the bugs as they currently
<JFo>   stand. I have also begun doing some draft documentation on how to address these bugs in the proper way. I will
<JFo>   be working with several of you to further refine this information in the near future.
<JFo> * Started looking at the arsenal scripts we have currently with a view toward getting them back running daily. I
<JFo>   have several tasks identified for this week concerning documenting their process as well as working with
<JFo>   Deryck H to address the limitation on how many can be processed at one shot.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> All configuration changes from the UDS review session are now applied and uploaded. Also the AGP drivers of interest have been identified and moved built-in. An ubuntu kernel with XEN_PCI_PLATFORMDEV has been tested in an Amazon Cluster Compute image. Further testing is needed within an Ubuntu Cluster Compute image, and testing is needed to see if it isn't causing some of the issues in Bug #669496. Work benchmarking the effect of changing HZ is ongoin
<apw> g with a report due by natty-alpha-1.
<apw> ..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669496 in linux (Ubuntu) "natty fails ec2 boot on i386 or t1.micro" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669496
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * ACPI method testing: add some more advice feedback, check for infinite
<cking>    loop exeception errors.
<cking>  * bios mtrr tests: skip MtrrFixDramModEn test for non-AMD CPUs
<cking>  * acpitables: some MADT / APIC sanity checks, dump out P_LVL3_LAT correctly
<cking> ..
<cking> hrm, missed some lines:
<cking>  * bios mtrr tests: skip MtrrFixDramModEn test for non-AMD CPUs
<cking>  * acpitables: some MADT / APIC sanity checks, dump out P_LVL3_LAT correctly
<cking>  * get ACPI version number from /sys/module/acpi/parameters/acpica_version
<cking>  * various build warning fixes
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> I added the deviation docs to the kernel trees. So last thing todo is the script.
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> The first pass through the process went well, although we didn't hold strictly
<sconklin> to a two-week cadence, as we started with kernels ready for verification.
<sconklin> We had great help from certification on this, and they will have a representative
<sconklin> joining us in this meeting starting next week.
<sconklin> We learned a lot and are refining the process, documented here:
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> In preparation for the beginning of the next stable kernel release,
<sconklin> we ask that commits to all -next branches be held until the
<sconklin> stable kernel team has completed merging those changes with
<sconklin> the master branches.
<sconklin> We will announce on ubuntu-kernel-team mailing list when the -next
<sconklin> branches are open again.
<sconklin> ..
<apw> sconklin,
<apw> could you not move the branch over to a new name
<apw> sort of take a snapshot of it to work with
<apw> ..
<sconklin> apw: yes, That's occurred to me, and I wanted to run it by everyone as a possible new process step. We agreed to the current process of freezing, tho
<tgardner> yeah, what apw said. what good is a -next branch if we can't scribble in it?
<sconklin> But yeah, it's a trivial way to handle it
<sconklin> We still have a short window during which we reset the branch
<apw> the process is bound to evolve
<sconklin> let's take this offline
<sconklin> ..
<sconklin> for now the -next branches remain closed, at least for a few hours
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> A number of small changes dropping old no longer required patches. 13 of the 19 personal patch reviews are now done. Some of these are likely to miss the natty-alpha-1 deadline, but none are release critical for the milestone.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<apw> Preliminary testing of the Linaro OMAP3 kernel suggests it does contain the require Ubuntu delta and will boot the Beagle board (our target platform). We are waiting on working ARM CD images to allow substitution of this kernel for further Ubuntu feature testing. As ARM CDs are not expected until the end of the week some of this is likely to miss natty-alpha-1; work items moved out as appropriate.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> The final kernel for natty-alpha-1 (2.6.37-7.18) has been uploaded, built and is in the archive.  This is a v2.6.37-rc3 based kernel carrying all of the configuration harmonisation and much of the Ubuntu patch delta review feedback.  We are expecting to upload a futher kernel carrying a v2.6.37-rc4 rebase as soon as the milestone freeze lifts.  Please test the alpha CDs once they come out.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<sconklin> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<sconklin> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.81  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.69  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.32 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-26.48  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-23.41  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 || 2.6.32-412.28 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> In the last week, a security update was prepared and released.
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  19 Natty Bugs (up 7)
<JFo>  1088 Maverick Bugs (up 26)
<JFo>  1109 Lucid Bugs (up 21)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo> As this tag is deprecated, this listing is only to ensure that I keep it on my radar until
<JFo> changes to the apport hooks and my processing of the currently tagged bugs is completed.
<JFo>   * 1 natty bugs
<JFo>   * 394 maverick bugs
<JFo>   * 178 lucid bugs
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 23 maverick bugs (up 3)
<JFo>   * 81 lucid bugs (up 3)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 167 maverick bugs (up 11)
<JFo>   * 199 lucid bugs (up 7)
<JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 6 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> The next bug day will be next Tuesday covering regression-update bugs. there are 118 bugs that need to
<JFo> be looked at, the majority of which will need to be tested against the latest released version and the current version in
<JFo> development. I'll send out an e-mail today concerning the day. I'll also post a blog post on our voices page.
<JFo> whoops
<JFo> wrong bit
<JFo> The first iteration of the Bug List is running hourly. It is available:
<JFo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/jfo/kernel-buglist-by-team.html
<JFo> As always your feedback on it is much appreciated.
<JFo> Bug Expiration seems to be working. I have seen several bugs Expired by the system recently. I am trying to work out how
<JFo> to see what is being expired (number wise) versus what we would have expired with our arsenal script. This is mainly to see
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/jfo/kernel-buglist-by-team.html
<JFo> if the process is working as we expect so that I can provide that feedback to the LP team.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> see above :)
<bjf> already covered ^^
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:19.
<JFo> thanks bjf :)
<apw> thanks
<smb> thanks bjf
<cking> thanks
<kamal> thanks bjf
<sconklin> thanks
<YoBoY> toc toc
<YoBoY> dÃ©but de la rÃ©union dans 8 minutes
<YoBoY> oups sorry wrong channel ^^"
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-01
<doko> hi
<ev> hi
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> o/
<jhunt_> hi
<jhunt_> you _can_ all hear me now right? :)
<doko> ohh, had we a mumble session?
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ev> jhunt_: yes ;)
<robbiew> doko: uh...every week ;)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> psurbhi is on holiday
<robbiew> okay....who's up first....
<robbiew> doko?
<robbiew> :)
<doko> spent most time on internal work, besides this: dso linker fixes, python 2.7.1 and 3.1.3 releases, openjdk-6 after-security-math, and some linaro work with hrw
<doko> --
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> and thanks for all the "internal work" ;)
<robbiew> cjwatson?
<cjwatson> done: fixed some issues with new grub2 snapshots; moved non-first kernels into a submenu; patch pilot day on Tuesday, hoovered up a reasonable amount of sponsorship reqs and old bugs; helping out with alpha-1
<cjwatson> todo: assemble initial blacklist for grub2-boot-framebuffer and package it somewhere (carried over)
<cjwatson> er, patch-pilot day on *Monday*
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> Trying to sort out this damned installer testing nonsense with IS, working on a ubiquity implementation of the automatic partitioning home preservation stuff (already done for d-i), had a meeting with ivanka and some agency people on one of her projects, working out a battle plan for testing more of the installer.
<ev> done
<cjwatson> oh!  I forgot about going down to London on Friday to talk with ev etc. about wubi
<ev> oh yeah
<ev> I did that too
<ev> ;)
<doko> installer nonsense?
<ev> testing the installer on a giant pile of netbooks hooked up to honeysuckle.millbank, driven by hudson
<ev> it works in principle
<ev> just needs some IS love
<doko> ahh
<robbiew> thnx ev!
<robbiew> mvo?
<mvo> apt: merges; very first patch pilot; general merges; Msttcorefonts: uploaded to natty and maverick and improve failure condition for the EULA stuff; software-center: work on startup and long list display performance, setup daily builds; update-manager: bugfixes, add chroot mode that will skip kernel selecton, started on screen integration (server mode only); vmbuilder: tiny amount of work
<mvo> startup-speed is doing nicely
<mvo> list speed in a experimental branch is also shaping well
<mvo> fingers crossed for a much speedier version soonish
<mvo> (done)
<robbiew> mvo: cool...you ordered your test machine, right?
<mvo> yeah, its here and the first set of tests is done
<robbiew> sweet
<mvo> http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/software-center/mini10-startup/startup-times.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/software-center/mini10-startup/startup-times.png
<mvo> its not very impressive currently though
<mvo> still a nice dent already
<ev> mvo: what are you using to measure this?
<robbiew> ooooh...nice
<mvo> *cough*
<ev> and do you have it documented anywhere
 * robbiew suspects mvo has a stopwatch
<mvo> while gtk.events_pending(): if window_main.flags() gtk.VISIBLE: break
<robbiew> lol
<mvo> a precise one!
<Keybuk> ev has a whole cupboard full of mini 10s :p
<Keybuk> which I'm sure he's only using as bittorrent seeders
<mvo> lol
<ev> pretty much
<robbiew> thnx mvo
<robbiew> barry?
<mvo> I'm open for other ideas how to measure this, it seems to be working ok
<barry> python: soabi patch committed, issue closed; fixed problem w/--enable-shared.  py27 ftbfs in natty: 662611 (virtualenv); 674175 (vte); 672209 (mutiprocessing); working on 683182 (graphviz).  submitted bug+patch for cheetah and svn to debian & bug 605365 discussion.  tomorrow: patch pilot.  done.
<ubottu> Bug 605365 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/605365 is private
<barry> thanks for nothing ubottu
<robbiew> heh...thnx barry........heh...thnx barry
<robbiew> figured I'd keep the echo
<robbiew> :P
<barry> :-D
<robbiew> jhunt_: ?
<jhunt_> Finished upstart bash-completion script and submitted for review on 25 Nov (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.shells.bash.completion.devel/2695).  No response from mailing list. Anyone have any thoughts on how long it should take them to respond? Is there are more direct route? After chatting to keybuk, spend day working out my weird mountall system hang. There are some potential tweaks we could make to upstart/mountall to avoid this problem occuring.
<jhunt_> Process question: what should I do re the "affect dpkg" on lp:#674146 (Ubuntu natty-alpha-1 milestone)? It isn't actually a dpkg issue and I think this bug may be appearing on skaets list. None of the status options look appropriate so I guess I want to just remove the dpkg entry entirely?
<robbiew> bug 674146
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 674146 in dpkg (Ubuntu Natty) "dpkg segfaults during debootstrap on natty armel" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674146
<jhunt_> I tested a dpkg build with dokos patched gcc and it worked fine on kakadu.
<jhunt_> it's not a dpkg issue though.
 * doko already forgot about the toolchain updates :-/
<barry> jhunt_: mark it invalid?
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> mark it invalid for the dpkg task
<doko> jhunt_: is dpkg rebuilt with default optimizations?
<jhunt_> I guess. Should I update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status though as it isn't clear that that status can be used for this scenario?
<cjwatson> bash-completion> find one of the maintainers on IRC and chase them up that way?
<cjwatson> probably best to just rebuild dpkg and close the bug when that's done
<jhunt_> k. I was following their documented process, but... :)
<robbiew> jhunt_: if it's not a dpkg issue, then it falls under "This should also be used if the reported problem is not a bug at all, but for example user error "
<cjwatson> dpkg does need to change, in a very technical sense of "be uploaded with no source changes"
<robbiew> ah
<cjwatson> actually, there would be a source change to undo jhunt's workaround
<cjwatson> it's more a "task" than a bug, but we don't have separate trackers for those really
<barry> so, then yeah.  upload the change and fix committted
<robbiew> jhunt_: yeah...what barry said ;)
<jhunt_> so forward a new patch to undo my last one to cjwatson ?
<cjwatson> aye
<jhunt_> thx
<cjwatson> after alpha 1, though
<jhunt_> k
<jhunt_> EOT
<robbiew> jhunt_: thnx
<robbiew> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> I'm afraid I don't think I've accomplished anything to report this week :-(
<doko> there was a techtalk ... rumors ...
<robbiew> heh..indeed
<Keybuk> that was last week
<robbiew> http://blip.tv/file/4444396
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://blip.tv/file/4444396
<robbiew> \o/
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Stuff
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Stuff
<robbiew> Alpha 1 tomorrow
<robbiew> ...hopefully :P
 * robbiew hasn't been closely tracking feature work...but will start now
<doko> I'm planning to start a test rebuild tomorrow
<doko> still while the archive is frozen
<robbiew> doko: ok
<robbiew> barry: any plans to have work items for http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning ?
<barry> robbiew: i really should get together w/james_w and figure that out ;)
<barry> i'll try to do that today
<robbiew> thnx
<doko> python2.7 as the default
<barry> we still have a little time to decide that
<robbiew> doko: any work items for http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-n-dso-linking ?
<robbiew> barry: heh...but an early decision is ALWAYS preferred
<robbiew> ;)
<doko> robbiew: ok, I can add some ...
<cjwatson> little time> for which, UDD or python2.7?
<barry> robbiew: no doubt :)
<robbiew> cjwatson: I believe python 2.7
<barry> py27
<barry> as default
<robbiew> doko: thnx
<barry> cjwatson: oh, we didn't tell you?  we're making that change today. :)
<robbiew> jhunt_: would also be nice to get some work items in http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-foundations-n-finish-upstart
<doko> my impression was that we had a decision to make 2.7 the default for natty
<robbiew> but I'm sure you and Keybuk will sort that ;)
<cjwatson> barry: no complaints from this quarter
<doko> I'm just wondering when to do that switch
<Keybuk> that's easy
<Keybuk> [pitti] switch to systemd]
<barry> if we can get all main packages !ftbfs by feature freeze
<cjwatson> barry: actually, one complaint.  needs to be after alpha-1
<doko> well, so make it the default after alpha1?
<barry> cjwatson: that's why the smiley
<cjwatson> I wasn't sure :)
<barry> :)
<cjwatson> is there any reason not to start on Friday, then?
<barry> cjwatson: sorry, you mean make py27 the default and deal w/ the fallout?
<ScottK> doko: AFAIK we decided to get 2.7 fully supported and then see where we were timewise.
<jhunt_> robbiew: sure - I've collated everything discussed at UDS and subsequently and it's a pretty big list if we attempt to implement all of it. I need to discuss implementation details with Keybuk.
<doko> ScottK: when is this from your point of view?
<Keybuk> yeah, that's kinda the problem, it's a huge list :p
<robbiew> jhunt_: ack...yeah, I imagine only a subset would be doable this cycle
<Keybuk> my own attempts at writing are longer than yours
<ScottK> doko: From my POV if we get 2.7 fully supported prior to FF it should be default.
<Keybuk> and then I suffer from feature paralysis
<Keybuk> and FML etc.
<doko> ScottK: that was not my question
<barry> feature freeze is 24-feb, alpha-2 is 3-feb.  i think *now* is not the time to switch, but let's make it a goal to switch at the rally
<ScottK> OK.  What was your question?
<doko> ScottK: *when* to switch?
<jhunt_> robbiew, Keybuk: do we need to try and prioritize the list maybe to see what gives biggest bang-for-buck?
<cjwatson> that's sort of why in the upstart UDS session I was trying to encourage figuring out things that could be passed out to multiple people, cherry-picking things that can be noticeable improvements for 10.10, etc.
<ScottK> Not before we've done all the rebuilds and fixed FTBFS for sure.
<doko> 2.7 for 11.10 is too late. it's only a question *when* to switch for 11.04, not if
<cjwatson> since I know that a giant list is hard to make progress on
<Keybuk> jhunt_: dunno, it's one of those things where I'm worried that I'm going to end up spending the entire cycle just planning
<robbiew> jhunt_: well...I'd rather prioritize based on what's needed and also doable
<ScottK> doko: Then make the transition work get done smoothly and quickly and there will be nothing to argue about.
<robbiew> jhunt_: like...I think even the idea about examples in the man page would be a good thing to have
<robbiew> not that flashy, but very nice to have
<doko> ScottK: I'll make it as smoothly and quickly as the linking changes
<ScottK> That's what I'm afraid of.
<cjwatson> I'd honestly rather we just smashed through it between alpha-1 and the rally (or even between alpha-1 and Christmas)
 * robbiew is having dejavu...and recalls py2.6 by default
<jhunt_> robbiew: I've almost completed 'init-examples' and it's coming along rather well I think. I'd rather have this info on the systems rather than (just) on the wiki to help out those in a disconnected environment.
<cjwatson> rather than waiting until everything is perfect, and missing the deadline
<robbiew> +1 with cjwatson
<cjwatson> I would not take this stance if it looked as though we might not have time
<ScottK> cjwatson: Are you on the python2.7 topic?
<cjwatson> but does anyone not think that 2.5 months should be plenty?
<cjwatson> ScottK: yes
<doko> in that case, I would like to make the test rebuild with 2.7 as the default, so we know immediately what needs to be fixed
<barry> doko: do it
<ScottK> I think that's a great idea.
<barry> cjwatson: i think 2.5 months should be plenty
<cjwatson> then we should just get started on Friday, IMO
<cjwatson> esp. if somebody sends a mail to -devel-announce with details of what needs to change in packages
<barry> cjwatson: well, in the ftbfs so far, there's no pattern
<doko> I can prepare something like this tomorrow
<ScottK> doko: You're going to rebuild everything, not just Main, right?
<doko> yes, but main gets priority
<cjwatson> barry: ok, so no standard routine things?  doko said he wanted us to get away from symlinks for at least packages on the CD at the same time
<barry> cjwatson: well, that's a bit controversial :)
<cjwatson> for a smooth upgrade path in future
<mvo> barry: oh? why?
<mvo> isn't python2 the agreed future?
<cjwatson> the controversy I know about is for packages sharing a namespace?
<barry> because it entails changing the build systems on packages before debian does
<cjwatson> can't we work with Debian to do that in experimental?
<barry> and it does so w/o debian package maintainer input or approval
<cjwatson> I didn't say it had to be without input or approval ...
<ScottK> cjwatson: It can.  We just need to do the work with Debian part.
<barry> cjwatson: right, what ScottK says
<cjwatson> right.  I'm not saying we have to smash ahead with that with no forethought :)
<barry> but technically speaking, switching to dh_python2 is independent of making py27 the default
<cjwatson> fair enough
<doko> I would prefer it this way. just imagine that there may be packages where this is not possible
<barry> we should do both, but we also need to prioritize
<doko> I think 2.7 as the default should be the priority. we could handle the robustness even after feature freeze
<barry> right.  we're agreed that dh_python2 is the future and we should work with debian package maintainers to get that transition going.  it's just not a blocker for py27 work
<barry> doko: +1
<barry> doko: please do the test rebuild w/py27 as default.  that will give us some excellent data
<doko> so we'll have a busy next week ...
<barry> better than boring :)
 * mvo actually would like to have a boring day again - just one 
<barry> :D
<doko> you'll have christmas
<barry> mvo: hey, you have the forced vacation coming up
<robbiew> ok...changing gears
<robbiew> got 10min left
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB? / Good News!
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB? / Good News!
<doko> natty still boots (ix86 only), not arm
<barry> python 3.2 beta 1 comes out on saturday
<robbiew> heh
<mvo> mini10 s-c startup time measurements work - bad news is that its slow
<robbiew> the mini10 or s-c? :P
<mvo> and unity/compiz work on my natty box (after a word or two with the right people)
<barry> which reminds me, doko: when b1 comes out, can we ditch py31 for natty?
<mvo> robbiew: both! but the s-c part I hope to fix
<robbiew> okey dokey
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
<robbiew> thnx all
<ScottK> barry: I think it would be useful to support 3.1 and 3.2 both for Natty just to make sure we can do it.  It's not on any CDs yet, to it really doesn't hurt.
<mvo> thanks
<barry> ScottK: yeah, except all the good stuff (peps 3147 & 3149) is in 3.2 only
<doko> barry: no, no yet. and before making 3.2 the default I would like to wait for pep384
<barry> doko: i think you mean 382 (namespace packages).  i'm not optimistic that'll make it to 3.2
<barry> 384 will *probably* make it.  i've seen lots of commits from mvl
<doko> barry: no, I mean the abi pep
<barry> ah, cool.  well, he has until saturday ;)
<barry> robbiew: something tells me we're done <wink>
<ScottK> barry: [11:53:59] <robbiew> #endmeeting
<barry> heh
 * ScottK thinks he knew already.
<barry> okay, thanks then!  lunch awaits
<highvoltage> good afternoon everybody
<highvoltage> Just finishing testing the alpha candidate for i386 and amd64
<highvoltage> we only had one build that actually kind of worked recently (2010-11-30), but luckily we had that one and at least we'll have an alpha release this time round
<highvoltage> I found some nice Edubuntu videos that someone made yesterday, added it as favourites to the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/edubuntuproject
<highvoltage> at current rate we'll also hit the 500 fans mark on facebook this week. we haven't really promoted it much besides having a button for it on our website, and it's grown quite well over the last 2 months since it was started
<dinda> nice
<highvoltage> Edubuntu council renewal is being dealt with by the CC, I was initially a bit worried that it might get stalled, but the CC is taking care of it. It's likely that the current EC will just be renewed, except for rich who stepped down
<highvoltage> dinda: any updates from your side?
<dinda> not really
<dinda> holiday last week made it a short week
<highvoltage> ah yes, forgot about that
<highvoltage> stgraber, mgariepy: anything from you that you'd like to share this week or is that it?
<mgariepy> not for me
<highvoltage> I guess that's that then. If there's more then we can take it to #edubuntu
<highvoltage> *gong*
<barry> hi folks, udd meeting about to start
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101201
<poolie> (hi all)
<barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101201
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101201
<barry> poolie: hi
<barry> i guess we'll wait a few minutes for folks to show up
 * jelmer waves
 * ajmitch_ is sort of caught up in stuff at work this morning
<barry> ajmitch_: cool.  thumper, james_w hi
<james_w> hey
<barry> no slangasek?
<barry> let's get started then...
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry> reviewing from 2 weeks ago
<james_w> slangasek is on vacation
<barry> james_w: ack
<barry>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)
<barry>  
<barry> we've been in discussion w/ dholbach and others about this re: updating the packaging guidelines.  i think the above action will fall under that initiative so i'm going to mark this one as done
<barry> or at least take it off the list :)
<barry>    * poolie to capture uds session notes in a wiki page, with more detail (turn it into a blueprint?)
<barry>  
<poolie> k
<poolie> i didn't write anything more detailed about the uds sessions
<poolie> i did linke to the transcript
<poolie> and post about the survey results, after which there was some discussion
<poolie> is more summary documentation of  UDS wanted?
<poolie> i don't think it's a high priority now
<barry> agreed.  the only thing left is to decide whether we want to add some work items to the blueprint
<jelmer> poolie: didn't you already send a brief summary to the list?
<barry> jelmer: hi!
<jelmer> hey Barry :-)
<poolie> i can't recall if i did that before or after the previous meeting
<poolie> so it's either done, or scratched off  :)
<cdbs> Now, which meeting is this?
<jelmer> cdbs: Ubuntu Distributed Development
<barry> the blueprint is here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning
<barry> poolie: k
 * cdbs is a fan of UDD, so will watch around
<poolie> next? ajmitch?
<barry>    * ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU)
<barry>  
<barry> ajmitch_: we can carry that one forward to the next meeting if you want
<barry> i guess we will
<barry>    * poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list
<barry>  
<poolie> still to do; carry it over
<barry> thx
<barry> that's it for action items
<barry> [TOPIC] work items for blueprint
<MootBot> New Topic:  work items for blueprint
<barry> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning
<barry> so we have this blueprint, and robbiew was pinging me about work items for natty.  i'm being kept pretty busy this cycle and sadly haven't had much time to circle back to udd work.  what can we realistically accomplish this cycle that we want to add to the blueprint?
<poolie> i'm not quite sure what that means
<ajmitch_> barry: apologies, in the middle of debugging something - next meeting would be good
<poolie> these are work items so that we can track how much effort we should/have expend?
<poolie> or how much progress was made?
<barry> i think robbiew is looking for work items that we can still accomplish in natty cycle
<barry> right, so tracking effort yet to be expended
<poolie> so after the survey and uds, there are two main things i want to do in the bzr team
<poolie> - get network performance closer to apt-get source
<poolie> (we should set a quanitifiable target, but i think we should do more investigation first)
<poolie> - get the imports working more reliably
<poolie> those seem like things that would help and that are plausible for natty
<poolie> perhaps they're too big/small/vague to be work items?
<barry> wholehearted +1 for both
<barry> probably to big/vague, though great goals
<barry> well, network performance closer to apt-get source seems nearly work item-y
<barry> maybe with some percentage for "close"?
<poolie> i think to make it specific and measurable we need to describe things more specifically
<jelmer> poolie: is there a specific way of fetching you have in mind to compete with apt-get source ? Is this for 'bzr co --lightweight' / 'bzr branch' / whatever is fastest ?
<poolie> for, someone with GbE to a source mirror there is no prospect we'll match it in the short term
<poolie> jelmer, first looking for waste in simple branching atm
<poolie> or an a lightweight checkout
<poolie> next, a shallow checkout - john is doing code changes towards that
<barry> poolie: wasn't there some talk about trying to set up local mirrors of branches?  would that be more than just a fancy cron?
<poolie> it wouldn't necessarily have to be more than that
<poolie> my inclination is to try to make the straightforward use faster first
<poolie> perhaps we should look at doing it earlier?
<poolie> it could be a big win but it also makes things a little more complicated
<barry> it's hard for me to say.  bzr branch is not onerous for me, so it wouldn't be a huge win for me.  but for others it might be
<poolie> let's leave that as a medium priority
<poolie> i think there's a bug in udd discussing it
<barry> we can still add it as a work item though
<barry> i think what you describe above could be condensed into other work items, at least for now (they can always change later).  i can take a shot at extracting that if you want
<barry> and poolie you can decide later about resource allocation
<poolie> can you point me to a spec that is a good example of the right work item granularity?
<barry> i'm not sure such a thing exists ;)
<barry> but hang on, let me see if i can find something close
<barry> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-foundations-n-robust-python-packaging
<barry> that one has gone through a few iterations, but sadly blueprint whiteboards have a history erase button
<poolie> or no history at all, in fact?
<barry> indeed
<poolie> ok i see
<poolie> so this might help us keep track of things that don't match well to single bugs, or that aren't all in the same pkg
<barry> yep
<poolie> i'll see about adding them as we go along
<barry> on the package importer failures, iiuc, we have very close to 2k failures, with some common problems.  perhaps a few work items there could be: categorize failures; make sure bugs are filed; fix top two common failures; reduce failures by 50%, etc.
<barry> poolie cool.  i'll leave that to you
<poolie> at the moment we have something at a similar level on https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plate
<barry> we also have a work item for moving that infrastructure into IS, right james_w?
<poolie> right
<poolie> that progressed a bit, i think
<james_w> yes
<poolie> it's mostly gated on IS having time (in between midnight outages) to rebuild a machine for us
<barry> cool.  should definitely add it as a work item to get credit for it :)
<barry> what do you think about the other suggestions above?
<poolie> i think those would be good steps
<poolie> an item of getting it to zero might be elusive but we could have incremental steps
<barry> yep.  i'll add those, and of course they can always be changed
<barry> any other thoughts on the blueprint work items?
<poolie> guess that's a no?
<barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
<MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
<poolie> should the list be roughly the length of things we expect to do before natty? or conservative, or optimistic?
<barry> for now it can be optimistic.  it's very easy to postpone, remove, change items as the cycle progresses, with really no penalty to do so
<poolie> because we did this in detail last week, i propose this week just to talk about ones that changed or are interesting
<poolie> k
<barry> poolie: +1
<poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/udd/+bug/653307 is, i think, understood, but needs to be finished
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress]
<poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395 is fixed or nearly fixed?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress]
<poolie> james_w: are you here? any comments on redoing the imports affected by 653307?
<james_w> I am
 * ajmitch hopes that the logging bot didn't get disconnected as well
<poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/556132 is being worked on by exarkun, a twisted developer
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 556132 in Launchpad Bazaar Integration "bzr: ERROR: paramiko.SSHException: Key-exchange timed out; consistent after sending 1GB data" [Medium,Triaged]
<poolie> and i think that's all that's changed from that list this week
<james_w> poolie, was my comment in the bug unclear?
<poolie> no, perfectly clear, thanks
<poolie> just wondered if anything happened after that
<james_w> nope
 * barry has nothing to add
<poolie> but we should be able to do the checks and then ... i guess delete them from the package-import machine?
<poolie> our SRU MRE was blocked and i think is now unblocked, so some fixes will get into maverick-updates in a few weeks
<barry> that would fix a nice handful of failures
<barry> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<barry> anything else not on the agenda?  any good news?
<poolie> we're having a hacking sprint at the platform rally
<james_w> poolie, you have to delete them from codehosting, and then clear out the info on package-import for them, and then retry
<poolie> i think you all already know that
<poolie> ok, thanks
<poolie> any other complaints or bugs?
<jelmer> I added one to the list
<jelmer> I'm not sure if it's appropriate for this meeting, it's not strictly useful for the way UDD works.
<jelmer> I've been trying out recipes for a couple of different projects in the past few weeks. It's quite easy to set them up and stay working over time, but I'm finding that I have to go back often and update the version string and the source dependencies, something that could be automated.
<james_w> yeah, version string is the biggest maintainence burden IME
<barry> do you think recipes are getting the publicity they need?
<poolie> ok
<poolie> good question
<poolie> maybe we should ask thumper to this meeting next time; he's been working a lot on them
<jelmer> james_w: Build-Depends is the other one for me, some of the packages I work with increase the versions of their dependencies regularly.
 * ajmitch saw recipes demoed live for the first time about 2 weeks ago
<poolie> are they ready for wider pubilicity?
<barry> poolie: thumper *is* the lp stakeholder :)  but maybe this time sucks for him
<poolie> they seem to be growing organically
<james_w> I would like to see the beta label removed, so that we can be more forceful in encouraging people to use them
<poolie> it's about 11am for him
<ajmitch> barry: the meeting starts at 10AM for him, we're in the same timezone
<barry> ah, so i just need to ask flacoste bring the hammer down :)
<jelmer> poolie: They work well at the moment, though there've been a few breakages in the last two weeks.
<ajmitch> same city, for that matter :)
<poolie> i'll find out, or send a mail or talk to him about what the path is to general availability
<barry> poolie: great, thanks
<barry> anything else today?
<barry> 5
<barry> 4
<barry> 3
<barry> 2
<barry> 1
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:50.
<barry> thanks everybody.  see you in 2 weeks
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-02
<charlie-tca> Is anyone here for the Xubuntu community meeting?
 * highvoltage is around and lurking as usual
<mr_pouit> \o
<charlie-tca> Well, then
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:09. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> The xubuntu communtiy meeting is underway
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Agenda:
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda:
<charlie-tca> # Old business
<charlie-tca> # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> # Announcements
<charlie-tca> # Governance structure
<charlie-tca> # Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old Business
<charlie-tca> I don't have any old business to continue today. Is there any I forgot?
<mr_pouit> no, I think it's ok
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> Great, lets move on.
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, got an update for development?
<mr_pouit> Uploaded new releases of xfce4-notifyd, xfce4-appfinder, xfwm4, ristretto, xfce4-dev-tools, xfce4-volumed a few days ago.
<mr_pouit> Waiting for the alpha 1 before uploading xfce4-panel :p
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> Testing the images already. They are all working for Xubuntu
<mr_pouit> nice
<charlie-tca> Anything else, mr_pouit ?
<mr_pouit> nope
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much.
<thorwil> charlie-tca: hi! please ping me if artwork becomes a topic
<charlie-tca> Artwork is next
<charlie-tca> We have some submissions already for new wallpaper
<thorwil> ah, great timing :)
<charlie-tca> thorwil has done a great job getting us specs
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> thorwil, got anything you can say here?
<thorwil> yes
<charlie-tca> Please go ahead
<thorwil> i wrote a script that produces a "screenshot" with transparent desktop
<thorwil> so you get an image with panels, icons, any window that was up
<thorwil> that can be overlayed on wallpaper proposals
<charlie-tca> wow
<thorwil> so we will need screenshots that show the xubuntu theme
<thorwil> but what are the plans regarding icons and gtk-theme?
<thorwil> like mentioned earlier, adjusting the gtk-theme to fit a wallpaper would also make sense
<charlie-tca> ochosi is working on faenza icon set for xubuntu
<charlie-tca> and I think he is also doing something to the bluebird theme to make it work better
<mr_pouit> greybird yeah
<charlie-tca> He said the theme is http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors -> greybird
<charlie-tca> and the icons are # Old business
<charlie-tca> # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> # Announcements
<charlie-tca> # Governance structure
<charlie-tca> # Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> huh
<mr_pouit> oops :p
<charlie-tca> http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<thorwil> charlie-tca: so basically ochosi is in charge there?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> He seems willing to be very helpful
<thorwil> single person to talk to sure makes things easy :)
<charlie-tca> I agree
<charlie-tca> Will you get with him, then?
<thorwil> yes
<mr_pouit> (btw, I've been using greybird for a week now, and I like it )
<charlie-tca> :-)
<charlie-tca> Thank you, thorwil
<charlie-tca> I have tripped long enough on that artwork, maybe
<thorwil> np :)
<charlie-tca> I like the idea of using a script to see what really works well together.
<charlie-tca> Anything else on artwork?
<thorwil> not as far as i'm concerned
<charlie-tca> I am seeing some really nice looking submissions coming in. I am grateful to those artists for trying.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Testing and Bug Triage
<MootBot> New Topic:  Testing and Bug Triage
<charlie-tca> Alpha1 is looking good.
<charlie-tca> It should get out today or, at the latest, tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Bugs are falling behind a bit, but will be looked at real soon
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca> The only announcement I have today is the alpha1 will not have powerpc or ps3 images
<charlie-tca> Are there any others?
<mr_pouit> ok, as expected
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Governance structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Governance structure
<charlie-tca> Nominations for Xubuntu Project Lead are due to the Community Council by December 15
<charlie-tca> Feel free to nominate yourselves or someone you think will be good for the project
<charlie-tca> Any questions on the nomination process?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Anyone have anything to bring up?
<mr_pouit> yeah
<charlie-tca> Please go ahead, mr_pouit
<mr_pouit> I'm wondering if we should switch from notify-osd to xfce4-notifyd
<mr_pouit> the new release just uploaded in natty supports many features
<mr_pouit> I'll probably mail xubuntu-devel@ about that
<charlie-tca> soren, are you thinking about backporting it to Maverick and Lucid then?
<charlie-tca> soren, are you thinking about backporting it to Maverick and Lucid then?
<soren> charlie-tca: it?
<charlie-tca> sorry, soren. something wrong with my xchat.
<soren> mkey
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, are you thinking about backporting it?
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: it depends on the 4.7 libraries, so it's not really easy to do
<charlie-tca> Okay
<charlie-tca> But you mention switching to it. That would be for Natty, then?
<mr_pouit> yeah yeah, I won't change a previous release, of course
<charlie-tca> Okay. I like the idea, myself
<charlie-tca> Can we just do it as a trial and see where it goes?
<mr_pouit> yep, good idea
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> anything else for discussion?
<charlie-tca> Everyone is welcome to grap the images for testing today.
<charlie-tca> s/grap/grab
<mr_pouit> I'll send a more detailed mail to -devel then :)
<mr_pouit> nothing left from me :)
 * charlie-tca nods
<charlie-tca> The next meeting will the Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 19:00 UTC right here
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:41.
<charlie-tca> back to testing for me
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for showing up
<charlie-tca> and now, why can't I type   s o   as a work on xchat? It auto-replaces it with a name
<mr_pouit> hahaha
<Nafallo> charlie-tca: sounds like a "feature". likely some option in preferences for it.
<charlie-tca> Somewhere, anyway
<charlie-tca> maybe it is one of those "new" features.
<Nafallo> naah. I haven't ran xchat since forever, and I recall an option to that effect.
<charlie-tca> I'll look for it
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-03
<beerpages> Erstelle dir deine eigene Umfrage - Beispiel: http://www.beerpages.de/view/2H/Anti-%22Die%20%C3%84rzte%22%20Kampagne
<skaet_> hi pitti, ara
 * marjo waves
<skaet_> hi marjo
<pitti> o/
<jdstrand> o/
<Riddell> hi
 * charlie-tca waves
 * skaet_ waves to charlie-tca, Riddell, jdstrand  :)
<skaet_> ... ok lets get this started
<skaet_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet_> To make the meetings be a bit more efficient, :) , would like us to follow the convention like some other teams are using ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.  Anyone object to trying this?
<pitti> sounds fine
<skaet_> :)
<jdstrand> sure
 * pitti suppresses the question whether left-handed smileys will work as well
<skaet_> cool,  then moving along...
<jdstrand> (as in, sure, sounds good)
<skaet_> There's an agenda in the usual place.   Will post the link later.
<skaet_> Would like to quickly go through some new business, then go into the round table.
<skaet_> We're looking at changing date for release candidate to be on Tuesday 19th April (instead of April 21st).  Reason for this is that Good Friday is April 22, and Easter Monday is April 24th.   By shifting 2 days earlier, it will give us the week to test out the candidate properly.  Any objections/concerns?
<skaet_> ..
<pitti> +1
<charlie-tca> +1
<ScottK> \o
<marjo> +1
<skaet_> ScottK?
<ScottK> I'm here now
 * ogra_ac too
<skaet_> ok, thought that meant you had a comment ;)
<skaet_> [ACTION] skaet to update schedule for Release Candiate
<MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet to update schedule for Release Candiate
<ScottK> I do think it'd be useful to resolve the question of if our Release Candidate is really a Release Candidate or not.
<ScottK> Clearly the last several cycles it has not been treated as such.
<skaet_> ScottK,  agreed.   Will kick that discussion off last week (its in the agenda as a pending action item for me )
<skaet_> just wanted people to know that the date will be shifting if we keep to the traditional approach.
<pitti> for 10.10 it was really more like a beta2
<pitti> since we had 4 days more than usual
<cjwatson> it's always been more like a final beta, and perhaps we should name it as such
<cjwatson> there has not been a single cycle in my memory when it's been a true candidate
<marjo> cjwatson: +1
<marjo> cjwatson: to reflect reality
 * skaet_ observes that discussion is happening now, so will see if she can avoid a long email thread ;)...
<ScottK> cjwatson: I agree with renaming.
<skaet_> cjwatson, pitti, ScottK - if you're feeling like that,  I'm cool with renaming, and moving it up.
<cjwatson> I think those two actions are independent, FWIW
<apw> will that mean it needs a new milestone ?
<apw> as right now we only have a beta milestone
<ogra_ac> for LP and workitems
<ogra_ac> it likely does
<cjwatson> historically the feeling was that if you were targeting release rather than release candidate you were Doing It Wrong
<cjwatson> I think that still holds even for beta-2 or whatever, TBH
<skaet_> apw, yeah, I'm thinking we might.   Ok,  will look at a beta 2 earlier, and then moving rc candidate to just before.
<cjwatson> but I don't really mind adding a new milestone ...
<skaet_> ok, will put a proposal out to email in this direction, and then we can revisit at next meeting.
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> Other topic that's come up this week is Python 2.7 - what will be the transition plan?
<pitti> I guess there are some remaining rebuilds to do before we can switch over for it to be the default version?
<ScottK> AIUI the plan has been to get the rebuilds we can do before switching the default and then see where we are in the schedule and switch if it's not too late.
<doko> I was waiting for the archive being unfrozen
<skaet_> doko, thanks.   it was only soft frozen.
<ScottK> For rebuilds or switching the default?
<doko> no, the plan is to do the rebuilds, then to switch the default, and then fix the outstanding breakage
<ScottK> I'd prefer an "assess the breakage" step between doing the rebuilds and switch the default.
<ScottK> Based on lucas' rebuild test, I suspect it won't be too bad though.
<pitti> do you have some tricky grepping of Contents.gz to see which packages ship stuff for 2.6, but not 2.7?
<ScottK> I don't.  I've just been uploading rebuilds as I hit problems that needed it.
<doko> if you can do that with reasonable effort, please do. I do not want to spend too much time with this. and we will have 2.7 as the default in natty, so we have to do the fixes anyway
<skaet_> we've put out the armel port, so I'm not aware of anything else stopping going forward as doko and ScottK outline at this point.  anyone else have concerns?
<cjwatson> none from me; can I restart autosyncs?
<ScottK> I have the concern that we aren't proposing the same thing.
<cjwatson> oh, sorry, "none from me" meant "regarding going forward on <stuff in general> rather than continuing to freeze" ...
<doko> but you'r not proposing anything which leads us forward, and you don't say how *you* want to achieve the 2.7 goal
<skaet_> Scott,  I took the "plan" to be a merge of your ideas - as doko outlined, with an assess the breakage step inserted.
<ScottK> skaet_: doko doesn't agree to that.  He wants to just switch regardless of how prepared the archive is.
<ScottK> He can do that and he's welcome to fix it then.
<doko> barry did the rebuild tests, so we know that we can expect few failures. and yes, I'd rather spend time fixing remaining issues, than spending time on over-pedantic qa during alpha time
<skaet_> how about we do all the rebuilds this week, and see where we are next week at this meeting?
<pitti> FWIW, since we already had a test PPA, I agree with doko; the longer we have 2.7 the default, the better we can test it
<pitti> and we could always switch back to 2.6 as the last resort
<pitti> (this is just where /usr/bin/python symlinks to, right?)
<marjo> pitti: +1 for backup plan
<doko> skaet_: I'd like to have most of 2.7 fixed before the holidays. just waiting one more week gives us just two weeks to address these issues
<doko> pitti: yes
<jdstrand> for the little it is worth, I would tend to agree with pitti and doko
 * skaet_ is seeing concensus building...
<doko> and I'll write up an announcement before doing the default change
<ScottK> pitti: If we'd switched when doko wanted it would have broken obscure things like debconf.
<cjwatson> FWIW, hardly anything uses debconf.py
<ScottK> I think it would be nice to actually minimize the breakage and not just jump off a cliff.
<ScottK> OK
<cjwatson> that actually *is* fairly obscure (with the exception of the installer but it could have been worked around if need be)
<skaet_> doko,  ok, if you send out the announce that would be good.
<doko> and no, debconf wouldn't even be built because of component-mismatches ...
<cjwatson> skaet_: unfortunately, I think this is majority rather than consensus
<skaet_> cjwatson,  you're right
<skaet_> :)
<skaet_> ok, we need to move forward.
<skaet_> lets go with the rebuilds, if nothing catastrophic, doko sends out anounce, then we make it the default... and start fixing.
<skaet_> ..
<doko> thanks
<skaet_> New Topic: QA team update - marjo
<marjo> = Natty Alpha1 Test Report - December 3rd, 2010 =
<marjo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/NattyAlpha1TestReport
<marjo> === Test Coverage ===
<marjo>  * Image Coverage: 43/47 = 91.49 %
<marjo>  * Mandatory Testcase Coverage: 133/163 = 81.60 %
<marjo>  * Optional Testcase Coverage: 12/40 = 30.00 %
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo>  * 36 Test Failures
<marjo>  * Failure Rate 36/145 = 24.83 %
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 30 bugs unfixed
<marjo>  * Critical - 1
<marjo>  * High - 7
<marjo>  * Medium - 4
<marjo>  * Low - 3
<marjo>  * Undecided - 15
<marjo> === Critical ===
<marjo>  * LP: #669496 - natty fails ec2 boot on i386 or t1.micro - Confirmed - Critical
<marjo> === High ===
<marjo>  * LP: #684036 - Installation stalls after keyboard selection - New - High
<marjo>  * LP: #684304 - cciss module does not identify resources - New - High
<marjo>  * LP: #683367 - apport fails to create crash file during upgrade to 11.04 - New - High
<marjo>  * LP: #650703 - oem-config-prepare works, but oem-config fails to start after reboot - Confirmed - High
<marjo>  * LP: #684060 - separated menus: no keyboard shortcuts for menus - Triaged - High
<marjo>  * LP: #683700 - tasksel 'Virtualisation Host' fails to install - Triaged - High
<marjo>  * LP: #683775 - Natty Alpha 1, i915 has blank screen after boot - In Progress - High
<marjo> thx to jibel for the report
<marjo> QA Dashboard
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> QA Dashboard now includes automated server test results
<marjo> thx to hggdh & bdmurray for that
<marjo> any questions?
<marjo> otherwise
<marjo> ..
<skaet_> :)
<skaet_> thanks marjo - looking forward to going through then new dashboard.
<marjo> skaet: as usual, please provide feedback on format & usefulness
<victorp> the dashboard seems to point to old hw cert results
<cjwatson> I'm confused by http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/
<cjwatson> it has date finished yesterday
<cjwatson> if you follow the links, the logs are dated September
<marjo> victorp: is this no longer correct? http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<cjwatson> mvo: ^-
<fader_> marjo: I am no longer updating that as I have changed teams... I believe ara is creating these reports now, but I don't know where they are located
<victorp> marjo - sorry fader is no longer in hw cert
<marjo> fader_ ok, will follow up w/ ara; thx
<victorp> at the moment we are using http://people.canonical.com/~ara/hw-testing/current
<fader_> I will update my "current" page to reflect this and provide a link to ara's page
<marjo> victorp: ack; will change accordingly
<victorp> but trying to get a generic account so it doesnt matter who does the test :)
<skaet_> also,  before we move on just wanted to say thank you to everyone who pitched in and helped with testing the alpha1.  excellent job!
<marjo> victorp: great idea; thx
<victorp> marjo - I will ping you once that is done
<skaet_> ... and on that note, let's move on to victorp
<victorp> yes? :)
<skaet_> New Topic: Hardware Certification team update -victorp
<victorp> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~ara/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ara/hw-testing/current
<victorp> we finally got testing going for clients
 * skaet_ \o/
<victorp> the test failures in the link are due to script problems
<victorp> not due to image issues
<victorp> unfortunately we did not get any results from servers
<victorp> lab issues, we are working to resolve this asap
<victorp> we will now start running this test weekly
<victorp> skaet - that is about it
<skaet_> thanks victorp
<skaet_> ..
<victorp> once we have the test running we will look into adding unity testing and boot metrics
 * skaet_ looks around for questions?
<skaet_> cool - looking forward to seeing them.
<skaet_> New Topic: Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<skaet_> :)
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We have one milestoned bug: LP: #667815. Kees filed it and is working on it.
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report due to the Thanksgiving vacations most of our team had. Beyond that, we've been focusing primarily on USNs.
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet_> thanks!  questions?
<jdstrand> I actually have one :)
<jdstrand> oh
<jdstrand> o/
<skaet_> :)
<jdstrand> sorry if I missed it, but did cjwaton get an answer for turning on autosync?
<cjwatson> I interpreted the answer as yes
<skaet_> I was assuming we'd be turning it on now.
<cjwatson> it's running noww
<skaet_> :)
<jdstrand> ok
<skaet_> New Topic: Kernel team update - apw
<apw> o/
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-1.html
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> natty-alpha-1 is now officially over, we achieved most of the coding items for the kernel but a number of ancillary and documentation tasks have been pushed out to natty-alpha-2.  Those pushed out are listed with background on the overall status above (first link).
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda: little progress has been made on the first; the second is possibly related to the grub2 changes and testing is required there; the third it seem the i386 issues are likely a corrupt image with the t1.micro issues being real on both amd64 and i386; little progress has occured on the remainder; the last bug is really not a kernel issue either.
<apw> The main distro kernel is now rebased forward to mainline v2.6.37-rc3 and uploaded.  A bnx2 firmware issue affecting a number of Dell servers triggered a kernel respin just after the natty-alpha-1 freeze.  A further upload rebasing to v2.6.37-rc4 is pending the release of the milestone freeze.  Some testing of Linaro ARM kernels has been ongoing and the current feeling is that the kernels do have most of what is needed, some gap analysis is still need
<apw> ed for the configuration.
<apw> ..
<skaet_> thanks apw!
<skaet_> questions?
<skaet_> New Topic: Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> just to be clear: the grub2 change you mention was the one we agreed to do at UDS in the awareness that that would expose kernel problems
<cjwatson> (for people unfamiliar with that project)
<cjwatson> This week was quite quiet with the exception of alpha-1.  Interesting bits and pieces:
<cjwatson>  - installer autotest framework no longer blocked on IS, should be ready for action soon
<apw> cjwatson, yes, that is correct, fallout from a pre-approved change
<cjwatson>  - working through various python2.7 build failures
<cjwatson>  - interesting news from grub upstream: experimental reverse-engineered btrfs support.  this is unfortunately not based on our work which had been stalled on licensing issues, which is a shame, but it's good to see something that seems like a resolution anyway
<cjwatson>  - some progress on software-center startup performance (now with data, http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/software-center/mini10-startup/startup-times.png)
<cjwatson> The work items graph (http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html) is trending downwards at an acceptable rate, though it remains to be seen how much the holidays get in the way.
<cjwatson> I don't have much else to report right now.
<cjwatson> Questions?
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet_> o/
<cjwatson> aye
<mvo> cjwatson: auto-upgrade-tester> hrm, hrm, the current symlink is broken , i fix that
<skaet_> any help needed on the licensing issue?
<cjwatson> skaet_: we tried to move it forward several times (it relied on approval from two other big companies) and got nods and smiles but little actual paperwork.  at this point I suspect that letting upstream go ahead with their reverse-engineered version (not that we could stop them!) is the best answer.  there's still things we can help with
<skaet_> cjwatson,  ok,  thanks.
 * skaet_ looks around? 
<skaet_> ..moving on
<doko> one thing about component-mismatches
<skaet_> ?
<doko> would it be possible if every team looks at these and cares about resolving them for alphas and betas?
<doko> they usually tend to accumulate
<cjwatson> it would definitely help if it wasn't just us.  are people confused about what's needed?
 * ogra_ac thinks right before milestones the teams are busy getting milestones ready
<doko> not confused, just not looking
<ogra_ac> i would rather propose to do it after a milestone
 * skaet_ nods
<doko> people tend to forget after a milestone
<ogra_ac> make it a fixed task
<cjwatson> ogra_ac: even that would be better than the current situation
<cjwatson> I don't actually care much when people decide to do it
<skaet_> I can add it to the list and remind in these meetings?
<ogra_ac> ++
<cjwatson> doko: not looking> it's difficult to tell because we have no throughput log, only a snapshot of current state
<doko> sounds good
<skaet_> okie  moving on...
<cjwatson> I know that a lot of stuff stays on the list but I don't really get to see what moves off it
 * skaet_ seems like this should be another sort of report, will add to ponder list...
<skaet_> New Topic: Server team update - robbiew
 * skaet_ looks around for robbiew or someone from server, since robbiew's traveling..
<skaet_> Daviey?
<skaet_> .. hmm,  ok, will move on and see if someone shows up later.
<skaet_> New Topic: Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> As usual, detailled report including RC bug status is at
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> Blueprint drafting: All done, except for two stragglers which our team doesn't work on (see wiki)
<pitti> Development status:
<pitti> - Alpha-1 work items were almost all done; 4 stragglers, moved to alpha-2.
<pitti> - Netbook CD now merged into Desktop (except on ARM), unity vs. classic detection is in place.
<pitti> - There are currently a lot of compiz crashes, these are being worked on.
<pitti> CD space savings:
<pitti> - Need more package rebuilds to reduce changelogs and PNG files
<pitti> - There has not been much movement on the perl-base-only discussion; if it doesn't make further progress by the end of the year, we will drop this goal and instead just try to get rid of some separately packaged Perl modules.
<pitti> - Once we rebuild OO.o, we'll drop another ~ 9 MB due to dropping the NBS libicu42 and changelogs.
<pitti> - We need to get rid of Python 2.6 on the CDs.
<pitti> ..
<pitti> (sorry, the python one has already been discussed)
<skaet_> thanks pitti!  questions?
<skaet_> .. ok, onward down the agenda.
<skaet_> New Topic: Ubuntu One Team
<robbiew> o/
<skaet_> hi robbiew :)
<robbiew> sorry...am in a meeting but I can give a quick Server Team update
<skaet_> yes please
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NattyBlueprints
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NattyBlueprints
<robbiew> so this is a "final" list of 11.04 committments
<robbiew> there are a few undetermined blueprints
<robbiew> where we are waiting on some input
<robbiew> if anyone has comments/questions...send me email ;)
<robbiew> robbie@ubuntu.com
<skaet_> ..
<robbiew> ..
<skaet_> thanks robbiew :)
 * skaet_ looks around for anyone from Ubuntu One team?
<joshuahoover> skaet_: me (sorry)
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases is in the link above
<joshuahoover> we have a rather important bug to fix with couchdb not working in natty right now, bug #682866
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 682866 in couchdb (Ubuntu Natty) "CouchDatabase() call hangs" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682866
<joshuahoover> that bug, in addition to couchdb not working, is preventing us from getting our new packages for desktopcouch in...thisfred is working (with a number of people) on getting the bug fixed asap
<joshuahoover> the other thing to note is we're behind in our work to get u1 events in zeitgeist...we thought we'd have this done this week for alpha1 but it's been a bit more work than we originally estimated...we think we'll have it done the end of next week
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet_> thanks joshuahoover.  :)  questions?
<skaet_> New Topic: Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<Riddell>  * Alpha 1 out, no major problems
<Riddell>  * GCC should be fixed for ARM, Qt build now ongoing
<Riddell>  * KDE Platform 4.6 beta 1 is in (minus KDE PIM which we are being more cautious about)
<Riddell>  * KDE Platform beta 2 due to packagers yesterday, due for release next week
<Riddell>  * hal removed from kubuntu seeds and CDs.  Testing ongoing.
<Riddell>  * Bug #684703 "Generated symbols different on different archs with gcc-4.5" causing annoyance
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684703 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "Generated symbols different on different archs with gcc-4.5" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684703
 * pitti yays about Khalsectomy
<ogra_ac> heh
<Riddell> upstream have been moaning lots about the lack of any docs for the replacements
<Riddell> but then it's not like hal had any documetation
<pitti> what specifically? udisks, upower, and udev have quite decent docs, I think
<Riddell> yes those
<doko> Riddell: a reduced testcase would be much appreciated
<skaet_> ?
<skaet_> ..?
<Riddell> I can play around with libraries, but I don't have any methodical way of making one
<Riddell> skaet_: doko is talking about the symbols bug
<skaet_> Riddell, thanks.
<skaet_> was wondering if you had any other updates, or we should move on?
<Riddell> I'm done
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> thanks Riddell :)
<skaet_> New Topic: Desktop Experience Team Update
 * skaet_ looks around?
<ogra_ac> no experience today :)
<skaet_> New Topic: ARM team update - ogra
<ogra_ac> thats me !!!
<ogra_ac> ;)
<ogra_ac> Full Status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> - Team worked towards alpha 1 release, one massive blocker bug was holding us up here
<ogra_ac> - OMAP4 daily images build again, we had to drop some apps that build dep on QT for making the meta installable
<ogra_ac> - OMAP3 kernel from linaro was tested with our image and looks good, we now wait for security and support commitment from kernel team for 18 months (a spec of the kernel team exists for this)
<skaet_> :)
<ogra_ac> - There are still some open SRU bugs left
<ogra_ac> - The gcc fix for the QT FTBFS apparently went in unnoticed before alpha 1, QT should build now which should soon start to clean out the KDE FTBFS
<ogra_ac> - Bug 683683 is the above mentioned bug that blocked A1, it turned out to be an issue with building busybox with the -marm flag, worries are big that -marm with new gcc might be busted, we need to research other -marm using packages here
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 683683 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu Natty) "run-init on omap3, omap4 in natty dies if busybox is built with -marm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/683683
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> Image Status
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> - Alpha 1 went out belated today
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> Work Items
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> - Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra_ac> - Next Milestone http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> Bugs
<ogra_ac> ..
<ogra_ac> Serious: bug 683683
<ogra_ac> on a sidenote i'm on vacation til end of the year, rsalveti will take my part in this meeting until i return
<skaet_> ack.
<ogra_ac> thats it from me
 * skaet_ wishes ogra_ac a good vacation.  :)
<ogra_ac> :)
<skaet_> thanks ogra_ac!  questions?
<skaet_> New Topic: MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> On the phone.  Please come back to me
<skaet_> ok ScottK
<skaet_> New Topic: Linaro update - JamieBennett
<skaet_> .. hmm no JamieBennett either...
<skaet_> ok then open floor time
<skaet_> New Topic:  Other questions, comments, etc?
<skaet_> hmm,
<skaet_> looks like we're pretty much at the end of the meeting, except for ScottK's input then.
<pitti> nothing pressing right after an alpha
<skaet_> heh, indeed.
<skaet_> except the python 2.7 transition ;)
<pitti> skaet_: buildds will be busy with that over the weekend :)
<skaet_> ok,  so not to waste folk's time,  I'll add into the minutes any updates from ScottK after the meeting
<cjwatson> I'm hunting around for people who object to decommissioning the ps3 port
<skaet_> cjwatson - I don't!
<cjwatson> does anyone have comments to make on that?
<pitti> we could send an announcement similar to the ia64/sparc one?
<doko> heh, I just updated to maverick last month
<pitti> (not that I'd particularly care about the ps3 port)
<cjwatson> doko: your ps3?
<doko> yes
<ogra_ac> play games on it !
<cjwatson> ok ... do you have comments on decommissioning the port?  I assume that upgrades would still work, I'm just talking about continuing to build installer images
<ogra_ac> stop using it for work
<cjwatson> which is a fairly significant drain on resources for hardware with a vendor actively hostile to running Linux on it
<charlie-tca> cjohnston, no objection from here
<skaet_> decomission away, from my perspective... after a nice announcement.  ;)
<cjwatson> (upgrades> since it's the same architecture after all)
<doko> can we move this offline/to next week?
<cjwatson> sure
<skaet_> yup.
<charlie-tca> cjwatson, no objection (sorry, cjohnston )
<cjwatson> I've put it off long enough anyway
<skaet_> Thanks marjo, victorp,jdstrand, apw, cjwatson, pitti, doko, robbiew, joshuahoover,  ogra_ac,  ScottK, charlie-tca
<didrocks> david has a dropping freenode connection
<skaet_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:14.
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> have a good weekend
<didrocks> so, just giving that: DX status update at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus as usual
<joshuahoover> thanks everyone
<marjo> skaet_ thx for an efficient meeting
<ogra_ac> thx skaet_
<didrocks> skaet_: if you need to have a look ^^
<skaet_> didrocks, thanks for letting us know.
<didrocks> yw :)
<skaet_> will follow up with davidm, and ScottK offline for the minutes.
<davidbarth> skaet_: and my connection is back
<jdstrand> thanks everyone
<davidbarth> sorry for not being there when it was my turn; the online world had suddenly frozen
<skaet_>  davidbarth,  no worries - it happens.
 * skaet_ keeping fingers crossed it doesn't happen to me during one of these ;)
<skaet_> davidbarth, can you send me update by email and I'll just paste into the minutes?
<davidbarth> sure
<skaet_> awesome.  thanks!
<skaet_> have a good weekend all.
<charlie-tca> Thank you
 * skaet_ heads over to #ubuntu-release channel again...
<davidm> skaet_, you need me for something or did you mean davidbarth ?
<skaet_> davidm, sorry meant davidbarth
<skaet_> :(
<davidm> NP just making sure ;-P
<ScottK> skaet_: I'm off the phone now.
<ScottK> skaet_: the rebuild results that lucas published today are pretty scary.  Plenty of MOTU work to do just to get stuff to build.
<ScottK> Not that many python2.7 related build failures, so that looks ~OK for Universe, but that's just building.  Working is a different question.
<skaet_> ScottK, anything I can do to help?
<ScottK> So we'll have to see.
<ScottK> A couple of meetings ago we had an action to document how to deal with the linker order problems.
<ScottK> Did that ever get done?
<ScottK> If not, we need it done.
<skaet_> yeah, its in the action items.
<ScottK>  If so, it needs to get publicized.
<skaet_> doko was supposed to update an existing description.
<ScottK> Once that's done, we need to make sure people are aware of it.
 * skaet_ nods
<doko> ahh, about the ordering being relevant on the command line?
<skaet_> doko,  yup.  :)
<ScottK> and how to identify such a problem and determine the solution.
<skaet_> doko, can you get an email out about it early next week?   (update the online description, and then follow up with an email version)
 * skaet_ likes to overcommunicate on these sorts of things...
<doko> skaet_: update about what?
<skaet_> order of command line args is important, how to identify when it might be happening and work around it.
<skaet_> there's a link in the agenda to the site with the description it was suggested to be updated.
 * skaet_ goes gets it...
<skaet_> doko, ScottK - this is the link I had,  http://wiki.debian.org/ToolChain/DSOLinking
<ScottK> skaet_: That describes the indirect linking changes, but not the ordering changes.
<skaet_> ScottK, ack, which is why it was suggested it be updated.  ;)
<skaet_> if that's not appropriate place in yours and doko's mind, I'm fine with it being documented on one of the ubuntu wiki's and a pointer made to it.
<ScottK> I don't care where.
<ScottK> I just want there to be enough of a tutorial that people can figure out how to fix it.
<skaet_> doko?
<skaet_> hmm, we seem to have lost him....
<skaet_> ScottK,  any other updates you want me to put in the minutes for this week?
<ScottK> Nope.
<skaet_> ok,  thanks.
<ScottK> Thanks for checking.
<skaet_> np
<skaet_> I'll head back to ubuntu-release then, and we can leave this clear for others.
<doko> skaet_: done
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-28
<pppurple> would any one care to answer a few questions for me?
<sagaci> pppurple: if they're ubuntu support related, you'll have been chance in the main #ubuntu channel
<pppurple> wht is the meeting channel for?
<pppurple> ill join that channel as well. thanks
<DarkEra-netbook> pppurple, if it isn't ubuntu related at all i would suggest to join #ubuntu-offtopic if you just want to chat about everything else ;)
<pppurple> im just trying to figure out how i can install it and keep windows as a back up as well...just begginer noob questions.
<sagaci> pppurple: yep, #ubuntu
<pppurple> perfect thanks
<ara> hello!
<brendand> hi!
<MooDoo> hello
<ara> OK, let's get started
<roadmr> hello!
<ara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 16:02:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ara> Welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly Squad meeting!
<ara> The agenda today looks so far:
<ara> Ubuntu Friendly on Ubuntu variants (roadmr). I'll start discussion on this on the ML but if needed, we can hash this out on the meeting too.
<ara> AOB
<ara> only one topic
<ara> let's get started
<ara> #topic  Ubuntu Friendly on Ubuntu variants (roadmr)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Friendly on Ubuntu variants (roadmr)
<ara> roadmr, all yours!
<roadmr> OK thanks!
<roadmr> we've received a few bug reports and complaints, indicating that theuser experience for UF is somewhat subpar on Kubuntu (specifically) - but I guess this would apply to other Ubuntu variants.
<roadmr> I sent a request to the mailing list to see what people think of UF's user experience on those variants
<roadmr> and also to ask for some help or ideas on tasks to tackle this
<roadmr> to make the UF experience better on variants of Ubuntu
<roadmr> so other than looking at the tasks I sent to the mailing list,
<roadmr> the thing is that a lot of the work to make this happen will have to come from the community
<ara> o/
<roadmr> so first, if anyone has anything other than the tasks I posted on the ML it'd be nice to hear about it
<roadmr> also, if there are some ideas on how to engage and/or reach communities for those variants who may be interested in helping with this, that'd also be nice to discuss.
<roadmr> the topic on the ML has not received a lot of attention but it may be because of last week being mostly about vacation :)
<roadmr> so any ideas on this?
<roadmr> ..
<cr3> o/
<ara> OK, I go first :D
<roadmr> ara go
<ara> I think the best idea would be to send the same email (with a bit of introduction) to the kubuntu, xubuntu, lubuntu mailing lists
<ara> to see if anyone is interested in doing that work
<ara> ..
<roadmr> that's a nice idea - also would help get more people interested in ubuntu friendly :)
<roadmr> cr3: your turn
<cr3> when we talk about the "UF experience" for Ubuntu variants, I'd just like to make sure we not only consider the client, checkbox, but also the web interface which needs to reflect a rating based on the variant which may have significant user interface implications
<cr3> ..
<ara> o/
<roadmr> yep, that's a valid concern, up until now we'd only been focusing on the client (i.e. can't run UF at all, help!)
<roadmr> however to be fair, save for some application-specific tests we're mostly testing the hardware
<cr3> roadmr: without a web interface counterpart, might as well just not install the client
<roadmr> and part of the work we want to do is ensuring we're testing the same components in the same way (i.e. even on kubuntu the audio and video tests use gstreamer)
<roadmr> ara: go ahead, and I'll let you chair the meeting, sorry for hijacking it :)
<ara> roadmr, no worries, conversation needs to flow :)
<ara> what I was going to say was basically what you were saying, roadmr
<ara> that we are testing hardware on ubuntu, basically
<ara> there shouldn't be a difference on the rating based on variant
<ara> ..
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, go ahead
<brendand> ara - are you sure about there being no difference. at least kubuntu uses a different bluetooth stack (not certain it affects hw interaction) and maybe a different network manager (i'm only like 20% sure about that one though)
<brendand> ..
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, your turn
<roadmr> brendand: I looked at a stock kubuntu install and nmcli was at least present
<roadmr> so part of the problem is that we know next to nothing about these variants, thus engaging their communities is a reasonable first step
<MrChrisDruif> Ubuntu Friendly?
<roadmr> it may lead to considering the variants as worthy of an entirely separate rating, as per cr3 - but the point seems to be that we won't know until we have on board some people who know them better
<brendand> o/
<roadmr> MrChrisDruif: yep, you're in the right place. Welcome!
<roadmr> ..
<ara> brendand, go ahead
<MrChrisDruif> I wasn't paying attention to the time
<brendand> Ubuntu: BlueZ
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<brendand> Kubuntu: BlueDevil
<brendand> ..
<ara> MrChrisDruif, go ahead
<MrChrisDruif> O, sorry I thought that was for saying your here. Please continue brendand
<ara> can anyone copy-paste the latest bits, please?
<ara> I dropped
<roadmr> ara: just MrChrisDruif saying hi :) you didn't miss anything
<roadmr> oh and brendand pointing out the bluetooth stack differences (maybe you missed that)
<ara> cr3, OK, so what happens right now with Non-Ubuntu results in RT? are they accepted?
<cr3> ara: yep
<roadmr> o/
<cr3> ara: I'm not sure where they might be reported though, it might depend on the output of lsb_release
<ara> roadmr, go ahead
<roadmr> if due to lack of some requirements (because the variant doesn't have them for instance) some UF-required tests are not run, the system will get one star on Ubuntu Friendly :( even though it may work fine
<roadmr> ..
<ara> We are just going on circles here, I think :-)
<roadmr> actions, actions!
<ara> Any concrete proposals / action items?
<cr3> o/
<MrChrisDruif> But would it be possible to install those temporarily for the tests?
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> how about this action item: someone to submit test results from kubuntu, see whether that appears as ubuntu and whether all required tests by UF are provided
<cr3> ..
<ara> I prefer that someone to be from the Kubuntu community
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<ara> MrChrisDruif, go ahead
<MrChrisDruif> Might be silly, but there are certain tests performed by the suite if I'm not mistaken.
<MrChrisDruif> Those tests require certain packages to be install to run, correct?
<ara> yes
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe silly again, but can't the suite "depend" on those packages to be installed before you can run it?
<MrChrisDruif> And maybe we could have separate meta-packages for the different flavors?
<roadmr> o/
<MrChrisDruif> Just an idea of course
<MrChrisDruif> Go ahead
<ara> roadmr, you go
<roadmr> Right now the instructions for installing and testing on Kubuntu are
<roadmr> open a terminal, install checkbox-gtk and gstreamer0.10-gconf, and run checkbox-gtk
<roadmr> those are the deps I managed to come up with, but I may be missing something
<roadmr> now it doesn't seem too complex,
<roadmr> but it would indeed be easier to "install checkbox-kubuntu"
<ara> o/
<roadmr> which would in turn depend on checkbox, checkbox-gtk, and any other checkbox deps we know not to be in kubuntu
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> ara, go!
<ara> I think that this conversation just needs to engage the kubuntu community first
<cr3> when in doubt, add more checkboxes (or checkboxen)!
<bladernr_> Noooooooooo!
<bladernr_> ;-)
<cr3> checkbox-bladernr
 * bladernr_ imagines checkboxen to be similar to tribbles
<brendand> o/
<ara> we got a lot of people from kubuntu in the uds session
<bladernr_> o/
<ara> I am sure someone will want to get involved
<ara> if we don't get anybody, then, why are we going to do the effort??
<ara> ..
<ara> brendand, your turn
<cr3> ara: +1
<brendand> just to say that checkbox-kubuntu isn't really an extra checkbox any more than checkbox-gtk is, so i don't think it's that big a deal
<brendand> let's send an email to the mailing list. if no-one volunteers, as ara says, why are we worried?
<brendand> ..
<cr3> o/
<ara> bladernr_, your turn
<bladernr_> ok...
<bladernr_> first, like Brendan, I agree with ara in the "if no one stands up, why worry?" area... also, I agree that we should engage the Kubuntu community for help, especially with finding out where the failures are.
<bladernr_> second though, what about trying to normalize checkbox a bit too... are the missing things Gnome specific, or are there cases where a test is simply dependend on a package that Ubuntu includes that Kubuntu disregards?
<bladernr_> perhaps we could organize a Ubuntu Friendly Hug Day with the Kubuntu crowd to help sort this out
<bladernr_> ..
<ara> o/
<ara> OK, so I think that the first thing to do is sending hte email, and then follow up from there
<ara> the email needs to be sent to both kubuntu-devel and  ubuntu-friendly-squad, to be able to follow up
<ara> any takers? roadmr, you brought the topic
<roadmr> sure I can do it :) kubuntu only, or also lubuntu and xubuntu?
<bladernr_> 0/
<bladernr_> ^^ my head apparently got bigger
<ara> #action roadmr to send email to the derivatives mailing lists about UF experience (and to get people involved!)
<meetingology> ACTION: roadmr to send email to the derivatives mailing lists about UF experience (and to get people involved!)
<ara> bladernr_, go adhea
<bladernr_> I'd suggest kubuntu only for now (since that's where the apparent interest is so far) and we can use whatever work we do for that as a template to enable other branches.
<cr3> o/ again
<bladernr_> ..
<ara> +1
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> please, if we have another package, lets not name it "kubuntu" because that would imply there should be other similarly named packages for other variants like "xubuntu" which might not be necessary, so something like checkbox-qt would make a lot more sense
<cr3> if we want to normalize checkbox and make it work across more variants, perhaps we should move away from specific technologies and use something more versatile like pygame even! that would work everywhere there's a graphical interface
<cr3> ..
<cr3> bladernr_: ^^^ we could have just two checkboxen, one for a graphical interface and one for the command line. that's it
<ara> OK, anything else on this topic?
<bladernr_> cr3:  yeah, I like the urwid package so far for that. it seems to work, and it's aready there
<cr3> bladernr_: I think we can do better than urwid for a graphical interface though, hence pygame which uses the SDL that should be supported just about anywhere
<ara> OK, moving on
<ara> you guys can take that conversation offline
<ara> #topic Any Other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business?
<cr3> ara: are you telling bladernr_ and I to get a room? :)
<ara> anything else?
<cr3> o/
<brendand> o/
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> Every week, there seems to be an interesting topic that comes up. I just wanted to mention that we're doing rather well in justifying the need for weekly meetings :)
<cr3> ..
<ara> +1
<ara> brendand, ?
<brendand> i guess we don't have too much more time
<brendand> but i wanted to say that following on from the list thread about automatically detecting the type of a system
<MrChrisDruif> Ow, I got something
<brendand> myself and roadmr established that the most sound logic for determining a systems type is:
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry, go on brendand
<brendand> check if the system has a battery. if it does not then it is most certainly a desktop
<brendand> that's wrong
<brendand> start again
<brendand> check if the system has a battery. if it does then it is most certainly a laptop
<brendand> if it doesn't then check the type with DMI. if it professes to be one of the 'laptop' types then we believe it is a laptop
<brendand> otherwise we believe it is a desktop
<cr3> brendand: this should be mentionned to the fwts to test that the DMI information is probably defined
<cr3> s/probably/properly/
<brendand> the only circumstance in which this will fail is if a laptop either has it's battery removed or undetectable AND it reports as a 'non-laptop' type
<ara> brendand, this needs to be followed up in the mailing list thread
<ara> cna you do that, please?
<brendand> i will of course send this out on the ml too, with a link to the branch with the script which implements that logic
<brendand> ..
<ara> cool, thanks
<ara> MrChrisDruif, your turn
<MrChrisDruif> Sure, on my mobile I noticed this meeting twice
<MrChrisDruif> I was checking if the fridge itself had it twice as well, because via the web it only showed once
<ara> and?
<MrChrisDruif> Hmm, it seems to be correct on the Fridge. So I'll check my own settings. That was it =)
<ara> cool, thanks
<ara> anything else?
 * roadmr got nothing else
<ara> cool, I think we can wrap up, then
<ara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 16:54:09 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-16.02.moin.txt
<ara> thanks all!
<MrChrisDruif> ara; has ubuntu friendly got an irc channel?
<roadmr> MrChrisDruif: not really, we usually hang out in #ubuntu-testing
<roadmr> MrChrisDruif: and I assume you're subscribed to the mailing list? if you have any concerns and can't reach any of us on IRC, you can always drop a line on the ML
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks, I'll "see" you around
<MrChrisDruif> Not yet, might do so
<roadmr> MrChrisDruif: yep! thanks for attending the meeting, the more the merrier!
<MrChrisDruif> I'll see you in testing
<jdstrand> o/
<micahg> o/
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 18:03:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thank you to jamespage for preparing updates for jenkins last week! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> it looks surprisingly like last week
<jdstrand> though I am in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I am almost caught up on email from the holiday weekend
<jdstrand> I have some pending updates
<jdstrand> MIR audits
<jdstrand> and more statistics gathering on proactive and reactive work as have time
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I just published some apt and update-manager updates
 * jdstrand also poke at the aa-profiles work
<mdeslaur> and have some other updates to attend to this week
<mdeslaur> I'm also on triage
<mdeslaur> and plan on looking at apparmor app confinement
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're it
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place again this week
<sbeattie> I'm still poking at cgroups and have some updates on my plate as well.
<sbeattie> ... in addition to recovering from the holiday and catching up on email.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me. micahg?
<micahg> I'm still catching up on updates, hopefully will be caught up by the end of the week with immediate updates (Thunderbird, NSS, chromium), Thunderbird 8 went out finally :), I think that's it, tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm handling the community role this week
<tyhicks> I have a short week as I'm off on Friday
<tyhicks> I didn't make much progress on the t1lib update from last week, as patches don't seem to be available
<tyhicks> I'm currently working on another (private) update
<tyhicks> and I've got to get an eCryptfs kernel patch out to lkml sometime early this week to incorporate some feedback from Linus
<tyhicks> thats it for me - jjohansen?
<jdstrand> jjohansen is off today. I don't think he'll be in the meeting
<jdstrand> so, I know jjohansen has a short week, will continue with kernel updates and is working on essential apparmor work items
<jdstrand> let's move on
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/phpldapadmin.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cyrus-imapd-2.2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ember.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mydms.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ike.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks: thanks! and thanks for all you're recent hard work on updates :)
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 18:15:57 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-18.03.moin.txt
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<broder> kees: fyi, i don't think i'll be able to make the TB meeting today. feel free to sub someone else from backporters in for me or punt it until the next meeting
<kees> broder: okay, thanks
<highvoltage> kees: nice mail regarding the -pae kernel :)
<stgraber> kees: should we add an agenda item to discuss dropping non-PAE? it may be a bit short notice (with our meeting in just a few minutes), so I'm fine discussing it in two weeks too but if the kernel team believes it needs to be discussed by the TB, I'm more than happy to do so ;)
<kees> highvoltage: thanks, not sure what'll happen with it, but I wanted to make sure we didn't use nx-emu
<kees> stgraber: I'd like to discuss it, yeah. it'd be nice to have someone willing to drive it, though. I'd rather be able to vote on it instead of recusing myself. :P
<stgraber> kees: yeah, I'd be happy to just vote on that one too :)
<pitti> hello everyone
<kees> hi!
<pitti> will be here in a few mins, just saying good night to my wife
<cjwatson> hi
<highvoltage> howdy
<soren> o/
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> I'd prefer a bit more discussion time on the kernel question rather than going to a vote today, I think, FWIW
<kees> okidoky
<kees> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 21:01:31 2011 UTC.  The chair is kees. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<stgraber> yeah, I guess having it on the agenda for our next meeting and making sure someone from the kernel team is here too would be best
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<kees> mdz can't make it today
<kees> [topic] action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action review
<kees> it looks like everything from last time got done.
<kees> [topic] Opening backports pocket pre-release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Opening backports pocket pre-release
<kees> broder said he couldn't make it this time. is there anything we need to cover here that we can do?
<pitti> hm, I thought we pretty much discussed that last time
<pitti> IIRC we +1ed this with a few modifications
<soren> That's how I remember it, too.
<kees> he'd sent an updated list of items https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
<cjwatson> agreed; broder's summary looks fine to me
<pitti> kees: right, that was it, thanks for the link
<kees> okay, so the 001137 summary was good? did that already get voted on?
<cjwatson> one thing I noticed, and it's not a blocker at all, if there are to be no source/binary copies through -backports when opening a new release, somebody should file an LP bug; however, I think it would be easier to just let things be copied and then upload rebuilds
<cjwatson> (avoids NEW)
<cjwatson> that's a minor wording tweak though
 * kees nods
<kees> [topic] Edubuntu LTS Application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu LTS Application
<kees> I didn't see email for this. I lack context ...
<stgraber> highvoltage: ^
<kees> highvoltage: ah, this is yours?
<kees> just checked the wiki edit history...
<highvoltage> right!
<stgraber> kees: for the backports, should we vote on the current proposal?
<highvoltage> Hi! It's 23:00 so please forgive me if I'm a bit groggy.
<highvoltage> The Edubuntu LTS proposal is currently really simple.
<highvoltage> The Edubuntu team plans to:
<highvoltage> * Supply security fixes to packages in the Edubuntu system that are not in the Desktop Ubuntu seeds
<highvoltage> * Leverage the Kubuntu LTS release for our KDE packages
<highvoltage> * Drop packages that are likely to be risky or difficult to support
<highvoltage> * Release point releases along with all of Ubuntu's point releases
<highvoltage> * Wiki Page where we're tracking this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<highvoltage> stgraber and myself are here representing the Edubuntu team (even though stgraber is a TB member as well)
<kees> stgraber: i'll come back to that, sorry for jumping ahead.
<highvoltage> If there's any questions, concerns or comments, please fire away.
<cjwatson> how many developers does the Edubuntu team have
<cjwatson> ?
<kees> "that are not in the Desktop Ubuntu seeds
<pitti> stgraber: FWIW, we already voted on teh backports one
<kees> I assume that means "Desktop and Server" Ubuntu seeds actually?
<highvoltage> cjwatson: very, very few. it's typically 2 people.
<kees> and what is the list of source packages that would be considered supported?
<pitti> highvoltage: what's the order of packages that are affected by this, i. e. packages which are not already covered by u/k desktop?
<stgraber> or rather anything that's not in a supported seed (as edubunt inherits quite a bit from ubuntu and kubuntu)
<cjwatson> I guess I'm worried about the bus factor over an LTS cycle length
<highvoltage> pitti: I wish I had that for you already, it's on my to-do list, at an educated guess I'd say around 20 packages.
<pitti> highvoltage: that's fine, I was just interested in the magnitue
<kees> only 20? that seems very small.
<pitti> highvoltage: that's typically software for maintaining school schedules, and some educationary programs as well? (or is that just kdeedu)
<kees> in the past, there has been trouble keeping things like moodle up to date in edubuntu. what is different now?
<stgraber> I'm getting the list now (before filtering of what we want to drop)
<pitti> highvoltage: local edu applications are probably "mostly harmless", I'm mostly worried about things like mediawiki and similar web/php stuff
<highvoltage> pitti: it's a bit more than kde-edu, there's tux4kids, gcompris, there are things like arkose, ltsp-live (I really should put together that list)
<stgraber> kees: we dropped the server part of Edubuntu, the only thing we kept server-side is LTSP, that's already supported in Ubuntu
<highvoltage> if you include kde-edu it does get quite a bit larger
<kees> stgraber: ah-ha
<highvoltage> pitti: but yes, they are mostly harmless
<pitti> oh, seems moodle isn't on the edubuntu DVD any more
<cjwatson> with the exception of LTSP most of it's leaf packages, right?
<highvoltage> pitti: yeah we don't support any php software at this time
<pitti> my main concern is PHPish stuff and similar web apps
<stgraber> full list of binary packages: http://paste.ubuntu.com/752980/
<pitti> highvoltage: ah, good
<cjwatson> highvoltage: one thing I will say is that Kubuntu as LTS has not to my knowledge been finalised; it certainly hasn't come up to the TB for approval
<cjwatson> if your LTSness is effectively conditional on that, perhaps we should arrange to talk with the Kubuntu people first ...
<highvoltage> we'd like to revive the edubuntu-server stuff for 12.10, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish, for now there's no web apps at all.
<pitti> yeah,  I'm not worried about things like gcompris
<stgraber> (full list of binary packages currently in universe, that's)
<cjwatson> highvoltage: on Mono (in your wiki page): Mono isn't actually dropping out of main for 12.04 AFAI
<highvoltage> cjwatson: indeed. we can wait on what happens with Kubuntu's application. Riddell has informed me that Darkwing is working on it
<cjwatson> K
<cjwatson> highvoltage: since it's needed for building bindings and the like
<pitti> mono> not out of main, but dropping out of the LTS support
<highvoltage> cjwatson: I just didn't want to wait too long before applying. If Kubuntu is only supported for 3 years then we'd want the same.
<pitti> so it'll just get the standard 1.5 years; but that's mostly for commercial support
<pitti> as it's in main, security updates are still covered
<cjwatson> pitti: I was under the impression that anything required to build desktop/server got the same support lifetime
<pitti> (not that there are many for mono)
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, maybe; that line has never been very clear to me
<pitti> the canonical support one, I mean
<kees> given that the server half is gone, I think the risk and work for supporting the client bits is likely low. I'd like to see it after Kubuntu's LTSness is finalized, as mentioned.
<highvoltage> I guess it's also worth mentioning that we don't expect an answer from the TB right away, we just wanted to open op dialog so long and get some feedback
<stgraber> anyway, we had mono only for gbrainy, banshee and tomboy, same as Ubuntu, so we got the change automatically when pitti did it last week
<pitti> gbrainy is quite a nice one indeed
 * cjwatson checks LP code
<cjwatson> I guess I'm mistaken, maintenance-check doesn't pull in build-deps
<highvoltage> it is. gbrainy is awesome. at least we can encourage users to use software-center by telling them they can get it there :)
<pitti> but if that will be the only thing for "mono in or out of LTS", it might be ok to drop from the DVD
<pitti> highvoltage: yeah, I like it, too :)
<cjwatson> (is mono security support a problem then?  I never paid much attention to that, but I must say I'm a bit surprised)
<pitti> but anyway, mono commercial support for LTS does sound like a problem ("need this on that new ARM arch"), but security support should be totally doable
<kees> mono authors in the past have been responsive about security updates.
<highvoltage> cjwatson: I'm not sure of its security history, but it's something that neither myself or stgraber is much familiar with, or is particularly interested in besides gbrainy, so even just a little work on it would be costly for us if we'd have to do it
<stgraber> I think the current position of the edubuntu team is that we'd rather avoid being the ones with a programming language in their package set for an LTS release ;)
<pitti> http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=mono FYI
<pitti> but anyway, it's still in main, and will be for the forseeable future, so I don't think we could get away with not security-supporting it
<pitti> but I think we disgress a little
<micahg> pitti: normally security support is for as long as the package is officially supported
<stgraber> so if we know we can ship gbrainy and we only commit to maintaing gbrainy for the length of the LTS, that's fine, having to deal with the language itself is a bit much for us :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: personally I wouldn't mind having mono in if it means that we can keep gbrainy, it just depends on what kind of responsibility comes with it :)
<kees> alright, so, good start to discussion. is there something specific we should accomplish in the meeting today?
<stgraber> so yeah, to come back to the actual package list, it's mostly a few educational tools, fonts (not really risky), the gnome fallback session and a bunch of java stuff I'll try to get rid off
<pitti> so my gut feeling is that aside from the mono/gbrainy question (which we should ask the security team about), is that IF kubuntu is LTS, then edubuntu LTS sounds doable
<highvoltage> I guess we should see what Kubuntu does, it's probably not a bad idea to set some kind of date for making a final(ish) decision on it
<kees> sounds like two things for the next meeting, then: a list of the source packages to be security-supported, and an update on Kubuntu LTSness?
<stgraber> sounds good
<highvoltage> yep
<kees> okay, excellent. thanks for bringing this up.
<kees> [topic] Opening backports pocket pre-release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Opening backports pocket pre-release
<cjwatson> if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Langford#Basilisks ever happens then we might have to start worrying about font security
<kees> I may have left this one too soon. do we need to vote on broder's updated proposal?
<cjwatson> 21:08 <pitti> stgraber: FWIW, we already voted on teh backports one
<kees> okay, moving on then.
<kees> [topic] Recurring: Brain storm review (Next due: December 2011)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Recurring: Brain storm review (Next due: December 2011)
<kees> is the output due in dec, or our discussion of assigning who will do output due by dec?
<pitti> oh, that time of the year already
<kees> if the former, we need to assign something now.
<pitti> kees: when I added that originally, I meant the "due date" as "topic for TB meeting"
<kees> pitti: okay, so we'll save this for the next meeting then?
<pitti> but finding someone nowish does sound like a good idea either way, given that the next TB meeting will be well within holiday season
<kees> ah, fair enough.
<kees> I'd be happy to take it if I could have the requirements a little more well defined.
<kees> do we have any kind of documentation on how to do the review?
<cjwatson> we have some by way of cargo-culting from the previous ones
<cjwatson> mdz sent me links when I did it
<stgraber> pitti: not to be too picky (because I'm +1 on that plan anyway), can you point me to where we actually voted on that? I just found a +1 from you in the last meeting log but can't find anyone else's vote
<pitti> kees: what I did is take the top 10 brainstorm items (with a little common sense adjustment), find some people who could give a good reply/action/answer to this, and ask them whether they are willing to do them
<pitti> stgraber: perhaps I misremember then; if there's doubt, let's just re-vote, should be quick
<kees> pitti: can you dump the links and that short summary into something like TechnicalBoard/BrainStormReview ?
<pitti> kees: I can forward you my mails from back then
<kees> and then I'll go through it for next meeting and try to get comments
<pitti> or that
<stgraber> pitti: I'm looking at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/17/%23ubuntu-meeting.html I think it sounds like we all agree in the log but we were only barely quorate, so can't hurt having something a bit better documented :)
<kees> [action] pitti: document brainstorm review activity
<meetingology> ACTION: pitti: document brainstorm review activity
<kees> [action] kees: perform brainstorm review
<meetingology> ACTION: kees: perform brainstorm review
<pitti> stgraber: ah, that was it, the quorum, yes
<kees> let's just do another vote?
<kees> soren: still with us?
<soren> Sure.
<kees> [vote] approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
<meetingology> Please vote on: approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pitti> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pitti
<kees> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kees
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<soren> Er..
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
<cjwatson> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjwatson
<kees> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: approve opening backports pre-release proposal as updated in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-November/001137.html
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<soren> Man, that was confusing. I thought we were still talking about the brainstorm review :)
<kees> okay, officially documented. :)
<kees> soren: sorry, we switched back. :)
<kees> [topic] Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<kees> I don't see anything we missed in the archives.
<stgraber> kees: thanks, sorry for being a bit picky but I like being able to grep through meeting logs and having it properly documented makes it much easier :)
<kees> stgraber: yeah, no, that's fine. I missed the last meeting, so I don't have all the context for what happened. :)
<kees> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<kees> I'm not sure what's needed in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 174375 in Launchpad itself "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<soren> I forget where these would be filed?
<soren> Oh.
<kees> soren: giant URL linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<soren> kees: You've been so good at copying agenda items from there that I haven't even looked at it this meeting :)
<kees> hehe
<kees> and I don't see what actions TB need to take on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/252368 either
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 252368 in Launchpad itself "Automatically associate DD and DM accounts with GPG keys in keyring packages to allow DDs to use the Launchpad Email interface" [Low,Triaged]
<kees> I'll move ahead unless someone has something to add to these.
<cjwatson> those two are longish-term tracking bugs, I don't think there's anything to add right now
<kees> [topic] additional topics?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: additional topics?
<kees> okay, anything else to bring up for this meeting?
<pitti> nothing from me
<stgraber> just making sure we have PAE on the agenda for our next meeting
<stgraber> other than that, nothing else for me
<kees> I'd like to find someone to drive that topic. I'll see if either jdstrand or slangasek are interested.
<kees> [topic] Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Select a chair for the next meeting
<kees> I think mdz would be alpha-next. who did the last meeting?
<stgraber> I did but that was because you weren't around at the time
<stgraber> next one should be pitti
 * kees shakes his fist at DST
<soren> not mdz?
<stgraber> (alphabetical order from https://launchpad.net/~techboard/+members)
<soren> Oh, real names?
<soren> How.... analog.
<soren> Ok. :)
<kees> let's stick with irc nicks :)
<stgraber> that's what I've been using so far, maybe it conventiently matched to IRC nicks :)
<pitti> I can chair, no problem
<kees> well, since mdz isn't here to accept/decline, let's go with pitti.
<kees> thanks!
<kees> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 21:43:41 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-28-21.01.moin.txt
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<pitti> and good night
<stgraber> thanks!
<broder> oh cool, i got back just in time to miss everything :)
<soren> Thanks!
<kees> stgraber, highvoltage: should edubuntu stay on the agenda for next time?
<broder> thanks for the approval, everyone - i'll start looking into implementation
<highvoltage> kees: I think it might as well, since Kubuntu should go on there
<stgraber> kees: yes, highvoltage and I will poke the Kubuntu folks so we get them on the agenda too
<kees> okay
<highvoltage> kees: I've poked Darkwing to attend next time for Kubuntu
<stgraber> kees: I think it'd be good to have LTS aproval done early in this cycle
<cjwatson> indeed
<kees> stgraber: agreeds
<kees> s/s$//
<stgraber> I don't think we have a documented deadline for it but "early" sounds good (and definitely before FF)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-29
<hallyn> .
<hallyn> ls
<lynxman> o/
<smb> hallyn, . ..
<lynxman> smb: isn't the filesystem a bit too high for kernel guys? ;)
<smb> lynxman, We talk about anything we do or do not understand :)
<zul> hi ho
<hallyn> \o
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<lynxman> smb: lol
<Daviey> o/
<smb> \o
<lynxman> \o/
<Daviey> Ursinha: it's on you :)
<Ursinha> meme
<Ursinha> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 29 16:01:20 2011 UTC.  The chair is Ursinha. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Ursinha> hello people, this is the first time I chair this meeting, so be nice to me :)
<Ursinha> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Ursinha> so, according to last week's logs there is none.
<Ursinha> moving on
<Ursinha> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<zul> boo!
<Ursinha> Daviey: and now....
<Daviey> Hello!
<Daviey> Alpha 1 is out this week, meaning we are in soft freeze
<Daviey> So far we are looking pretty stable, infact, possibly the most stable Alpha1 we've had for some releases
<Daviey> I'd like to go through our targetted bugs for this week:
<Daviey> bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "package glance 2011.3-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<Daviey> zul: Is this impacting upgrades still?
<zul> dont think so
<zul> i havent been able to reproduce it
<Daviey> zul: We probably need to test oneiric -> precise upgrades to see the situation.
<Daviey> bug 893926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<Daviey> Up for grabs, mostly bitesize - removing branding and image-store.. any takers?
<Daviey> Grab it if you want it.
<Daviey> bug 881903
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881903 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc-fedora template is broken" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881903
<Daviey> hallyn: awaiting new upstream version, do we have an idea when?
<hallyn> nope
<Daviey> bug 888124 , jamespage - is this on the soonly roadmap for you, or up for grabs?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888124 in excalibur-logkit (Ubuntu) "excalibur-logkit version 2.0-8 failed to build with openjdk-7" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888124
<hallyn> hm, i think new version was quietly tagged!
<hallyn> will check it out this afternoon
<Daviey> bug 607039 , Still up for grabs.. probably requires some time to reproduce.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<Daviey> hallyn: dandy
<hallyn> oh, nope
<jamespage> Daviey: on my list
<Daviey> jamespage: great
<jamespage> but not mega urgent ATM
<smb> Actually
<Daviey> bug 894713 , most certainly bitesize.. open to offers, highest bidder?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894713 in xen (Ubuntu) "xend init script should modprobe xen_gntdev" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894713
<smb> This is sort of user error but a long way
<smb> Daviey, Sorry that was for the nfs4 bug
<Daviey> smb: oh?
<Daviey> alexbligh: does ^^ that one interest you? :)
<alexbligh> Yep.
<alexbligh> We've fixed that here.
<alexbligh> Want a patch?
<Daviey> smb: right, sorry for moving a bit quick.. trying to get through them.. i don't mind interupting
<smb> Daviey, basically trying to use fstype nfs4 uses mount.nfs4 whch tries to use modprobe nfs4
<smb> which does not exist
<alexbligh> Daviey, oh, I already sent a patch :-)
<smb> but basically using fstype nfs also gives you an nfs4 mount
<Daviey> alexbligh: certainly, if you want to provide a debian/changelog entry aswell and a debdiff, we'll get it sponsored quickly :)
<smb> and according to upstream users should be encouraged to use nfs as fstype
<smb> just not that this is told anywhere
<smb> rather the opposite
<Daviey> alexbligh: if not, we'll JFDI based on your patch
<alexbligh> JFDI would be easier as I'll have to master debdiff etc. first :-)
<Daviey> smb: Oh great! I didn't know that :)
<smb> Daviey, Just got that answer today
<Daviey> smb: could i ask that you throw that as a comment on the bug report, and consider marking it invalid?
<Daviey> alexbligh: sounds good, thanks
<Daviey> smb: Great!
<Daviey> bug 833499 , new one to me
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 833499 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "virt/disk.py unconditionally inserts public_keys into /root/.ssh/authorized_keys" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833499
<smb> Daviey, Yes
<Daviey> smoser: something needs fixing in nova?
<smoser> reading up
<smoser> generally i think its broken behavior in openstack. but cloud-init un-does their insertion of keys for newer images.
<smoser> why did this make your list ?
<Daviey> bug 889644 , being worked on in Debian.. Wait out on that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<Daviey> bug 887186
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<Daviey> adam_g / RoAkSoAx: is that somethuing you were looking ay?
<Daviey> at?
<adam_g> Daviey: thats new to me
<Daviey> smoser reported it, guess he is chasing it
<smoser> i'm not chasing.
<smoser> the bug report should be fairly straight forward.
<Daviey> adam_g: okay, we'll dig into that after the meeting
<smoser> basically our squid proxy is not working as designed.
<Daviey> bug 893134 , zul - fixed in Precise, right?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893134 in swift (Ubuntu) "swauth required for auth in diablo" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893134
<zul> yeah uploaded yesterday still waiting for archive admin review
<Daviey> .. a few cobbler-enlist bugs, blocked on further direction. ..
<Daviey> zul: bug 871278 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871278 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Cannot attach volumes to instances if tgt is used" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871278
<zul> gah..
<zul> will get to it this week
<Daviey> bug 875262 , I think needs a new assignee.. open to offers.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<Daviey> bug 875262 , awaiting clariffication from reporter
<Daviey> an no, been more update.. Clint isn't here.. I'm sure he'll look at it today
<Daviey> bug 890362 , zul - next upload?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should glance user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<zul> yep
<Daviey> utlemming: been able to look at bug 891433 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891433 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3 miss_access bug, fix not included in LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891433
<utlemming> Daviey: yup, its done, just need to test it
<Daviey> utlemming: rocking
<Daviey> bug 894754
<Daviey> open to offers
<Daviey> hallyn: any news on bug 876768 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894754 in openvswitch (Ubuntu) "openvswitch_mod module not found" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894754
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876768 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] netcf" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876768
<zul> ill take the openvswitch
<Daviey> bug 891977, assigned to me - packages in PPA.. needs some polish and policy (debian/copyright , debian/control) etc.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891977 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler-web package still contain traces of Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891977
<Daviey> Any other bugs not being tracked, which should be?
<Daviey> jdstrand: any news on bug 881464 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881464 in keystone (Ubuntu) "[MIR] keystone" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881464
<hallyn> Daviey: fwiw i'd never heard of that bug.
<Daviey> hallyn: which one?
<hallyn> openvswitch
<Daviey> zul: keystone MIR, doko has found more goodies which need love, did you spot that?
<smoser> bug 855030 should be added to your list (i just added it)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 855030 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Encountering sporadic AMQPChannelException" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855030
<Ursinha> where do you look for bugs to fix?
<Daviey> Ursinha: we can probably move on, and carry this on at the end if required.
<hallyn> oh, you were asking about netcf.  no, no news.  AFAIK i'm done with it
<zul> Daviey: i saw im not the one doing the MIR
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> hallyn: great
<Ursinha> Daviey: I ask because sometimes people don't know about the bugs you point them
<hallyn> Daviey: i think we may have to sneak it into ubuntu without waiting for debian.
<Daviey> Ursinha: right
<Daviey> (smoser, thanks for adding that one)
<Daviey> hallyn: yep, lets discuss it after the meeting
<Ursinha> ok, so we can move on
<Daviey> Ursinha: shall we move on?
<Daviey> +1
<Ursinha> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Ursinha> anything happening in December?
<Ursinha> besides Christmas
<zul> new years?
<Daviey> Thankfully, no :)
<Ursinha> :P
<Ursinha> moving on then
<lynxman> robbiew is attending LISA, doing a BoF session on juju
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<robbiew> indeed I am
<Ursinha> oh, right
<Ursinha> anyone else?
<Ursinha> hggdh is not around, it seems
<Daviey> hggdh isn't around, is there anyone else from the QA team who can stand in?
<Ursinha> shall we move one?
<Ursinha> *on
<Daviey> Ursinha: please
<Ursinha> right sir
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I only had nfs4 and there is  bug 886521 from alexbligh
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886521 in linux (Ubuntu Oneiric) "CONFIG_XEN_PLATFORM_PCI should be "y" when building 3.1 kernel" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886521
<Daviey> smb meet alexbligh, alexbligh meet smb
<smb> I think we agree on trying to get those build-in
<alexbligh> we think that is Oneiric and Natty
<alexbligh> dcrisan has tested
<smb> right
<Ursinha> anything else?
<alexbligh> smb, have put a patch in
<smb> So we will go forward and propose SRU for O and N
<alexbligh> thnkx
<Ursinha> ..?
 * smb is done
<smb> .,.
<smb> ..
<Daviey> utlemming / smoser: As bug 881076 now has a work around, is it now a Low priority bug?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881076 in linux (Ubuntu) "precise kernels do not boot on ec2 without idle=halt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881076
<smb> But reminds me to see what happened upstream
<smoser> if low priority means not going to be fixed, no.
<smoser> it needs to be fixed correctly.
<smb> smoser, thats not true
<Daviey> I meam of lesser importance compared to other priorities :)
<smoser> images boot on all types, so thats good.
<smoser> but we i dont want that work around.
<smb> smoser, The problem is that upstream is not sure what proper means
<smoser> smb, yeah, and thats fine.
<smoser> but we can't ship 12.04 with that work around.
<smoser> so as long as that is understood, i dont care what its priority is.
<smb> Yes, I'll need to poke upsrteam again (and about another patch too)
<smb> regardless of prio
<utlemming> smb, smoser: I think medium is a good prio if we are going to debate it.
 * smb agrees
<smoser> i think it should be named flowerpuff.
<smoser> lets move on.
<utlemming> In looking at it, I think that RH had a similar issue too
<utlemming> smb: I'll look it up and ping you if its a match
<Daviey> smoser: what is the badness attached to that workaround?
<smb> utlemming, sounds good and likely they do as the acpi rework causes mwait to be used on some machines
<smoser> Daviey, the badness is we have to boot on ec2 with some specific kernel command line.
<smoser> which is silly, and also gives hiccups on grub upgrade.
<utlemming> the upgrade is where I have heartburn
<Daviey> ok
<Daviey> anything else for kernel?
<Daviey> alexbligh: Have you concerns addressed?
<alexbligh> Daviey, yes, save that building in those modules will make an upgrade from lucid to natty-backports tricky
<alexbligh> but I don't see anyway around that
<Daviey> :(
<Daviey> hmm
<Daviey> Upgrading from lucid to natty-backports wouldn't happen in one effort.
<alexbligh> Precise is PV device only, Lucid is non-PV device only, so it will happen at some point whatever.
<Daviey> ahh
<Daviey> I see.
<smoser> lucid kernel upgrades are going ot be fun all around.
<alexbligh> (and the current upgrade to backports gives an unbootable system)
<Daviey> okay.. we'll try to think of a way of making it painless as possible
<alexbligh> (so it's better than that)
<Daviey> but some pain expected, we think.
<alexbligh> aha
<alexbligh> ty all for your efforts with this Xen4 stuff
<Daviey> okay, Thanks smb !
<Daviey> smb: Alpha 1 kernel is looking dandy from my PoV :)
<Daviey> Ursinha: shall we?
<smb> Daviey, cool
<Ursinha> yes sir
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<Ursinha> NCommander: hello
<NCommander> Hola
<Daviey> NCommander: How is ARM server looking?
<NCommander> sorry, internet just blinked for a moment
<NCommander> We've got armhf bootstrapped and initial builds are running through now
<NCommander> There will a  *ton* of FTBFS's on armhf, so I encourage everyone to take a look at and see what failures you may encounter
<NCommander> feel free to ping me, ogra_, or any member of the Ubuntu ARM team in #ubuntu-arm
<Ursinha> ..?
<ogra_> qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/primary-precise-armhf.html
<Daviey> NCommander: How are all the spec's and blueprints looking?
<ogra_> Daviey, i think 99% of them wait for hardware
<ogra_> which we dont have
<Daviey> wow ogra_, that url is bad news :)
<ogra_> bad news ?
<ogra_> why ?
<NCommander> what ogra said
<ogra_> we only started building today
<Daviey> ogra_: yeah, thought as much :(
<Daviey> ogra_: lots of FTBFS's
<rsalveti> Daviey: still in the bootstrap phase
<ogra_> five or so yet
<Daviey> golly. :)
<ogra_> Daviey, yellow isnt failing
<Daviey> rsalveti: Ah, so things might improve?
<ogra_> red is
<rsalveti> Daviey: quite a lot, once the basic set of packages are in place
<Daviey> (on there own?)
<Daviey> Ahh
<ogra_> yellow means "Package is waiting on another package"
<Daviey> I see, dep waiting
<Daviey> Goody!
<ogra_> but yeah, we will have lots of failures
<Daviey> right
<ogra_> and many package sets that require give-back in the right order etc
<rsalveti> maybe good for alpha 2 :-)
<Daviey> Anything else for arm server?
<Daviey> Anything arm server wants to raise?
<ogra_> apart from the fact that we are largely blocked ?
<Ursinha> if so, please sign you're done with ..
<ogra_> nothing :)
<ogra_> ..
<NCommander> done
<NCommander> :-)
<Ursinha> awesome
<Ursinha> moving on Daviey?
<Daviey> ogra_: thanks
<Daviey> Ursinha: your the boss :)
<Ursinha> moving on
<Ursinha> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<lynxman> We have a new mcollective on precise, this package is a merge from the debian package, incorporating again mcollective-middleware, this will be ported upstream to debian soon
<Ursinha> anyone wants to share?
<lynxman> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mcollective/1.2.1+dfsg-2ubuntu1
<lynxman> Also there's an mcollective SRU for Oneiric that has been reviewed by jamespage, just waiting for upload
<lynxman> bug 884908
<Daviey> lynxman: nice work!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884908 in mcollective (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Package dependencies need work" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884908
<lynxman> Daviey: thank you kindly sir
<Ursinha> ..?
<Ursinha> anyone else?
<Ursinha> all right :)
<Ursinha> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> im hungry
<rsalveti> 2
<Ursinha> me too
<Ursinha> we can discuss later
 * lynxman prepares a burrito stand
<Ursinha> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Ursinha> so, same time, December 6th
<Ursinha> who's volunteering for chair?
<Ursinha> Daviey, smoser, jamespage, others?
<hallyn> the order is in the meeting page, actually.
<smoser> i didn't realize there was a volunteer opportunity.
<Ursinha> lol
<lynxman> smoser: your time to shine!
<smoser> i will volunteer lynxman
<hallyn> :)
<Ursinha> smoser: cool
<Daviey> thanks Ursinha !
<Ursinha> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 29 16:47:40 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-29-16.01.moin.txt
<Ursinha> food awaits
<Ursinha> somewhere
<lynxman> anyone fancies a burrito?
 * lynxman trying to start his business
<Daviey> no, thanks :)
 * RoAkSoAx just got hungry lol
<zul> taco taco burito
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
 * ogasawara waves
<smb> \o
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<herton> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 29 17:00:39 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<jsalisbury> I don't see ppisati online
<bjf> i think he was having internet issues
<ogasawara> I think he sent email that he'd be offline for a bit
<smb> jsalisbury, cut off
<jsalisbury> Ok, anyone else that can cover, if not we can move on
<smb> ogasawara, right moving flats
<apw> i don't think we have an update from him ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> Last Updated: 2011-11-15 00:11:56.171410
<jsalisbury> === Release Metrics ===
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ==== precise nominated bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 32 linux kernel bugs (up 12)
<jsalisbury> ==== Ubuntu precise-alpha-1 bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<jsalisbury> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 0 precise linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 10 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 10 natty linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> === Incoming Bugs ===
<jsalisbury>  * 8 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 635 oneiric bugs (down 5)
<jsalisbury>  * 1677 natty bugs (down 3)
<jsalisbury>  * 1099 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 979 lucid bugs (down 4)
<jsalisbury>  * 43 hardy bugs (down 3)
<jsalisbury> === Regressions ===
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 7 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 19 natty bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 76 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 1 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 61 oneiric bugs (up 6)
<jsalisbury>  * 434 natty bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 236 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 208 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 2 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ..
<ogasawara> jsalisbury: hrm, the "Last Updated" timestamp looks old.  I'll investigate.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> ogasawara, thanks
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-team-precise-alpha-1.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking     || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner  || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-1 work items and either get them closed or push them out to the next milestone.  Remember, Alpha-1 is Thurs Dec 1.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> Power Management:
<cking> * i386 vs i386-pae vs amd64 power measurements; various user space scenarios
<cking> * instrument ACPI battery information against different scenarios
<cking> * use ACPI battery analysis to improve powerstat, push out V0.00.04
<cking> * instrument unity 2D vs 3D in a limited set of tests
<cking> * started instrumenting powertop tunables on sandybridge H/W, compare to Win7
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have uploaded the 3.2.0-2.5 Ubuntu kernel which was based on the latest upstream v3.2-rc3 kernel.  Please install and test on any kit you have.  Feedback is appreciated.  We are in a soft freeze for Alpha-1, we do not intend any uploads until after the milestone.
<ogasawara> Important Upcoming Dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Dec 1 - Alpha 1 (2 days)
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Feb 2 - Alpha 2 (~ 9 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   11 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    8 (+2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw>  
<apw> We gained yet another 5 CVEs this week.  We closed out a couple.  Two of
<apw> the new CVEs await upstream fixes.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Last week saw the verification and testing of the current -proposed
<bjf> updates. Here is the status for the main kernels, until yesterday (28/11):
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.97
<bjf>   * prep'd and uploaded
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-36.79
<bjf>   * waiting on the completion of certification
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-31.63
<bjf>   * prep'd and uploaded
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.53
<bjf>   * prep'd and uploaded
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-14.23
<bjf>   * In verification phase, 4 bugs needing verification.
<bjf> For more details, current opened tracking bugs can be seen at
<bjf> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> Anything to add, herton?
<herton> nope, go on
<herton> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<tgardner> o/
<jsalisbury> tgardner, go
<tgardner> ogasawara, I think you should upload again to frop non-pae and fix Apple MAC installs.
<tgardner> drop*
<tgardner> as well as the crda stuff
<apw> is the installer ready for us to lose generic ?
<tgardner> he's got 2 days
<apw> ..
<tgardner> perhaps make it conditional on whether he can get it done by then.
<ogasawara> I'd be hesitant to yank non-pae so close to the milestone without giving more of a heads up.
<tgardner> well then, here is the heads up. lets git 'er done before A2
<ogasawara> tgardner: ack
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> is there a work item for the installer work ?
<bjf> ..
<ogasawara> bjf: I suspect not yet as dropping the non-pae flavor was still in discussion until yesterday
<tgardner> I've got a bug, I'll make sure the installer is listed
<jsalisbury> anything else from anyone?
<ogasawara> tgardner: how critical is the crda bits for alpha1? I could see an upload for the apple mac installs, or just release noting it for now.
<tgardner> ogasawara, not that important. I've converted wireless-crda to a meta package and uploaded
<tgardner> apple stuff can be release noted I guess.
<ogasawara> ack
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> any other open topic discussions?
<jsalisbury> Ok, thanks everyone.
<bjf> nice job joe
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 29 17:17:44 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-29-17.00.moin.txt
<apw> ta jsalisbury
<ogasawara> thanks jsalisbury
<jsalisbury> bjf, thanks
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-30
<jasonjang> hi ! Mr LaMont, How R U ?
<h01ger> hi
<ogra_> h01ger, !!
<ogra_> long time no see !
<h01ger> ogra_, indeed!
 * h01ger hopes to attend the edu meeting tonite. not sure if i make it though
 * stgraber waves
<barry> hi all.  i think i'm it today
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 16:00:30 2011 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<barry> slangasek and cjwatson are afk today
<stgraber> good, I was just wondering if Steve poked someone about chairing the meeting :)
<barry> yep, i'm the lucky pokee
<barry> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jhunt ev bdmurray)
<barry> jhunt ev stgraber doko barry bdmurray
<jhunt> Whole week has been taken up with intense rework of Upstart job logging
<jhunt> code for user jobs after I discovered a nasty issue. New code is simpler
<jhunt> and cleaner, but still has a niggly issue I'm currently trying to track
<jhunt> down.
<jhunt> â·
<barry> jhunt: i know all about those niggly issues that are hard to track down :)
<barry> ev: you're up, if you're ready
<ev> oh awesome
<barry> should we come back around?
<ev> - still helping the DX team get up to speed on automated testing using jenkins and autopilot
<jhunt> barry: yeah, tracing individual file descriptors across 5-process logfiles gets hard (and time consuming :)
<ev> - hacking away on the reporting daemon, recently adding some unit testing joy
<ev> (done)
<jhunt> ev: what about starring in a film? :)
<ev> oh yes!
<barry> autograph time!
<ev> - engaged in subversion of Nokia's launch of the Lumia phone
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> - ISO testing
<stgraber>  - Currently using the new tracker, fixing stuff as we go
<stgraber>  - Implemented donwload page
<stgraber>  - Worked on some DB sanity check scripts, export/import scripts
<stgraber>  - Working on migration of production server (still need to hear from IS)
<stgraber>  - Dailies are now pushed automatically to the new tracker!
<stgraber> - Edubuntu
<stgraber>  - Did a bunch of fixes on Sunday
<stgraber>  - Doing ISO testing this week
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Talked a bit with cyphermox about turning on privacy extensions, he had that turned on on his machine for a while without any problem
<stgraber>  - Poked a bit harder at dnsmasq in Network Manager, found one bug that we'll need to have fixed (DNS not working when using a VPN for default gateway)
<stgraber>  - Ifenslave update in my PPA, waiting to hear back from a customer for testing before uploading to Precise (bug 823366)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<stgraber>  - Discovered that VLAN and bridging are as buggy as bonding, trying to find a solution for that which doesn't involve changing everything :) Details at: http://paste.ubuntu.com/754234/
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Patch pilot on Monday, mostly spent cleaning up the queue from stuff that shouldn't be on it (got rid of 20-30 items)
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Figure out how to get reliable networking in 12.04 (for complex networks)
<stgraber>  - Look at the new ifupdown in Debian (beta2), isolate the fix for bug 876829 and SRU to Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Still need to get my iSCSI test setup online again and then look at the merge...
<stgraber> (done)
<jhunt> stgraber: Are QA + server team aware of your findings yet btw?
<cyphermox> stgraber: have you filed a bug about the dnsmasq VPN issue?
<stgraber> jhunt: gave the link to Clint and Daviey
<stgraber> cyphermox: doing that now :)
<jhunt> stgraber: cool.
<cyphermox> stgraber: also, without issue is not quite right: I did run into connections blocking when the lifetime of the temporary address times out
<barry> doko: you're up
<cyphermox> but that was when I was changing from the default lifetime to something like 30 minutes
<stgraber> cyphermox: bug 898224
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898224 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Wrong dnsmasq configuration when VPN is set as default gateway" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898224
<barry> i guess we'll come back to doko
<barry> short week due to usa thanksgiving holiday; continuing w/python-dbus py3 porting, still fixing and debugging the stragglers in the test suite (upstream git has some similar failures), but will try to wrap up today or at least, migrate the patches to git and submit upstream.  also: helped various folks with some packaging questions and issues (launchpadlib, and another one for a new employee).  pypy discussions (packaging for
<barry> debian). done.
<bdmurray> holiday(s)
<bdmurray> working with bug reporting kit in arsenal
<bdmurray> recreation and testing of bug 885442 regarding debconf and installer logs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885442 in debconf (Ubuntu) "Unable to dump debconf database" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885442
<bdmurray> work on bug reporting workflow diagram with cprofitt
<bdmurray> update bug bot not to subscribe sponsors if an ubuntu-dev member added the patch
<bdmurray> iso testing bug report review
<bdmurray> fixed bug 887705 regarding warning about an unsupported release when upgrading to precise
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887705 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "wrong warning about unsupported Ubuntu release when upgrading to precise" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887705
<bdmurray>  done
<barry> #topic bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<barry> bdmurray: what have you got for us today?
<bdmurray> as previously mentioned there is some iso testing going on now
<bdmurray> the new qa tracker has a new report of defects too and that is at
<bdmurray> http://91.189.93.73/qatracker/reports/defects/opened
<bdmurray> looking at that bug 897896 seems important
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 897896 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "keyboard layout wrong choosing a different language for live session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/897896
<doko> sorry, was still otp
<barry> doko: no worries.  whenever you're ready
<doko> - eglibc-2.15; spent too much time to track down the dynamic loader issues, without success
<doko> - universe merges
<doko> - bring down MIR's and component mismatches
<doko> - finalized eglibc ARM multilib patch together with Steve McIntyre
<doko> (done)
<barry> thanks
<barry> anything else on bugs?
<jhunt> bdmurray: when does the qa tracker get a dns entry? :)
<bdmurray> I thought stgraber said that was up to is right?
<stgraber> right
<stgraber> it's currently a canonistack instance, we hope to have production upgrade very soon
<bdmurray> I'm also unsure about how to proceed now with bug 891711
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891711 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) ""Upgrade" from 11.10 to 11.04 results in a unusable system" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891711
<bdmurray> If you insert an 11.04 cd into an 11.10 system you are presented with an option to "upgrade" from 11.10 to 11.04
<barry> uh, that's not a typo, right?
<bdmurray> the same thing happens with 12.04 and 11.10
<bdmurray> no not a typo
<bdmurray> It crashes when going from 11.10 to 11.04 and works, afaict, when going from 12.04 to 11.10
<bdmurray> However, I wonder if it really should appear there as an option at all
<bdmurray> as it isn't tested
<barry> is downgrading even a supported workflow?
<stgraber> downgrading isn't supported, though IIRC the installer doesn't "downgrade" your system when you choose that
<bdmurray> no, this use case wasn't envisioned
<stgraber> it essentially wipes the system, keeps your home and reinstalls it
<stgraber> except that some bits that are done on top of that seem to fail
<bdmurray> but the old kernel is there and needs to be manually removed
<stgraber> I'm still not sure we should support that use case and if not, we really should make sure it doesn't appear in the installer (will only work when 12.10 is released though)
<bdmurray> stgraber: exactly, although we could SRU ubiquity
<bdmurray> but its not likely to help much
<stgraber> yeah, but that'd only work for the limited number of users who actually choose to upgrade ubiquity before installs
<barry> agreed that it probably shouldn't be an option
<bdmurray> It shouldn't be an option because it doesn't work well?
<bdmurray> It seems like there is some demand for doing this
<barry> it definitely shouldn't say "Upgrade 11.10 to 11.04" :)
<bdmurray> well yes there is that
<bdmurray> but even if it were renamed should it should appear at all?
<jhunt> if it's allowable, surely there's an opportunity for us to understand why they are downgrading?
<barry> i personally think not.  even if it's a workflow that some folks legitimately want, it's likely not very common, and unless it's officially supported and tested, it probably shouldn't be an option (though some documentation can exist to show people how to do it, with all the caveats)
<bdmurray> But maybe this is something we should work on for 12.10...
<bdmurray> Or perhaps the real thing to do is to give people a way test the next release on their hardware better
<bdmurray> that seems like a better idea to me
<barry> agreed
<barry> though, i don't know how to translate that into an action item ;)
<bdmurray> well mvo had mentioned resurrecting the aufs upgrade tester in update-manager
<barry> bdmurray: do you know if there's an open bug for that? (lp is timing out for me)
<bdmurray> not that I know of it was a discussion in a UDS session at UDS P
<mvo> yeah, sorry, conflicting meeting
<mvo> I have not actually tried it yet, but I can do that now and see how the aufs stuff goes for lucid->precise
<mvo> I played with overlayfs and it looks pretty cool, but its not available yet in lucid
<bdmurray> Does it generally work for oneiric->precise though?
<mvo> so it will only be useful for oneiric->precise testing
<mvo> well, overlayfs is not in trunk yet in u-m, but porting the existing code should be straightforward
 * mvo had some proof-of-concept data for this
<barry> mvo: could you maybe open a bug on u-m and link a branch (even a prototype) to it?
<bdmurray> Okay, so it seems like the upgrade from old release to new release should be removed from ubiquity then
<bdmurray> er from new to old
<mvo> barry: yes, can do. and I will test the aufs lucid->precise one now
<bdmurray> I'll submit a separate bug for that and leave 891711
<barry> bdmurray, mvo thanks
<barry> #topic aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<barry> anything else y'all want to bring up?
<barry> going once
<barry> going twice
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 16:39:13 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-30-16.00.moin.txt
<barry> thanks everyone!
<stgraber> thanks!
<jhunt> thanks
<gema> hello everyone, we are about to start the new QA meeting
<jibel> o/
<nuclearbob> :)
<charlie-tca> o/
<gema> #startmeeting QA Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 17:00:29 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<gema> hi everyone and welcome to the new QA meeting
<gema> I have seen jibel, nuclearbob and charlie-tca already present, anyone else?
 * phillw is here :)
<patrickmw> o/
<gema> hi phillw and patrickmw !
<gema> ok, so we will get started and welcome anyone that joins later
 * alourie is present
<gema> since this is a new meeting, we don't have previous actions (hi alourie :)
<alourie> but only as a listener for now
<gema> alourie: no problem
<alourie> gema: no problem
<alourie> and hi
<gema> let's get on discussing the agenda from now on
<gema> #topic Discuss new agenda
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Discuss new agenda
<gema> you can see a proposal of agenda that I put together for today in the meeting page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<gema> this is just for today, but I think the blueprints update is something we should keep
<gema> do you guys have more topics to add to the agenda?
<gema> charlie-tca: would you like to have a section where you give an update regarding the testing for your distro?
<gema> if so, how shall we name that item?
<charlie-tca> Not today
<gema> ok, but going forward?
<charlie-tca> If it will be benificial to know what the Xubuntu tests show, yes
<phillw> we can do the same for lubuntu, if our team wishes so (we have a meeting tonight, so I will ask their views).
<gema> I believe it is important to see the correlation yes
<gema> ok, phillw
<gema> so I will add a section for status of the different derivatives as well as for Ubuntu
<gema> well, for now for Xubuntu and lubuntu
<charlie-tca> I cut a finger bad yesterdAY, am only partly here today
<gema> charlie-tca: I am sorry to hear :(
<phillw> sorry to hear charlie-tca :(
<charlie-tca> Thanks. Will do my beST ANYway
<gema> no worries, we read you very well, take care :)
<gema> #action gema to add lubuntu and Xubuntu testing updates to the agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: gema to add lubuntu and Xubuntu testing updates to the agenda
<gema> anything else you'd like to add/remove from the current proposed agenda?
<gema> ok, so we'll leave there for now and review it as we go along, then
<gema> #topic Blueprints Update for Precise
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Blueprints Update for Precise
<gema> now we'll go through all the blueprints that we are working on and give a quick update on them any questions fire as we go along so that we don't lose context
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-builds-smoke-testing
<gema> we have made available this page for everyone to see Precise automated testing results:  https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/
<gema> patrickmw: do you want to explain briefly what is there?
<patrickmw> sure
<patrickmw> currently there are the automated ISO installer tests, DX unit tests, unity merge tests, boot speed tests and I'm sure I'm missing something
<patrickmw> more builds get added weekly
<patrickmw> ah upgrade tests
<alourie> o/
<gema> go ahead, alourie
<alourie> is there a way to see these tests? To find out what is being done and how to participate in them, if possible?
<alourie> to contribute?
<alourie> ..
<patrickmw> yes
<patrickmw> I don't there is a central location, but we can list the launchpad projects on the wiki
<alourie> that'd be great
<gema> can I give you an action to compile that list to you patrickmw?
<patrickmw> yes
<jibel> o/ (question for alourie )
<alourie> jibel: sure
<gema> #action patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<meetingology> ACTION: patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<gema> go for it jibel
<jibel> which type of tests would you like to contribute to ?
<jibel> iso testing, package testing, ... ?
<alourie> jibel: well, anything. I just want this all to be as transparent as possible for possible contributors to join
<alourie> me including
<jibel> ok thanks
<alourie> I would be probably good for ISO testing
<alourie> but others may be more apt for other types
<alourie> ..
<gema> excellent, alourie, thanks for the idea and for wanting to contribute
<gema> we need as much help as we can get
<alourie> sure
<gema> so there is more stuff going on in this blueprint.. let me see
<gema> we are in the process of updating the documentation to be able to interpret the results and troubleshoot failures (information available in the blueprint)
<gema> we also are working on a new tagging scheme that will allow us to assess the quality of the automated testing, we are going to start using
<gema> in the canonical-platform-qa team, these tags for the automated testing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/TestingTypeAndBugTracking
<gema> we want to make sure we can assess the quality of these tests we are going to be running and improve them over time
<gema> that's all I have, anything else anyone?
<gema> good, moving on then
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-boot-speed-testing
<gema> patrickmw ?
<patrickmw>  * Results available here: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/boot-speed/
<patrickmw> * Jobs available here: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Boot%20Speed/
<patrickmw> * Job failures due to NFS boot breaking on yesterdays ISOs.  Bug submitted.
<patrickmw> * Currently generating benchmark bootcharts for each system (lucid, maverick, natty, oneiric) and they will be available on the Boot Speed Report this week
<patrickmw> * Following up on NFS Boot bug and will try to run boot speed tests today
<patrickmw> ..
<gema> cool, let's give some time to people to read in case there is any question
<gema> nothing.. then moving on
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-kernel-sru
<gema> hggdh: do you have an update on this?
 * alourie has to leave to put the baby to sleep, hopefully get back in time. :-)
<gema> what I know is what is on the blueprint, that sconklin is working on running rteval tests and trying to package them
<gema> I will try to get more feedback for next week
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-standard-sru-testing
<gema> jibel ?
<jibel> nothing from me on this topic this week
<gema> ok
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-test-case-management-tool
<gema> jibel installed an internal instance of litmus and we are evaluating its viability to use for handling our test cases,
<gema> we are in the process of setting up an instance that the community can also use and evaluate but we are undergoing review of the tool, etc, by the IS team
<gema> it will hopefully be ready soon and we will let you know in this meeting
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-qa-regression-testing
<gema> nuclearbob: ?
<nuclearbob> I've got an autotest package building in my ppa
<nuclearbob> I'm getting that improved and tested on openstack instances, once we get the new lab hardware in, we should be able to get those tests running automatically on new instances ona  regular basis
<nuclearbob> and we can get xml output from that to feed into jenkins
<gema> so we will be able to see results in jenkins then
<nuclearbob> yep
<gema> excellent, thanks
<gema> anything else from you?
<nuclearbob> nope
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-automated-test-submissions
<gema> patrickmw: ?
<patrickmw> work has started, nothing to report
<gema> ok, thanks
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-backlog
<gema> this blueprint is to keep track of all sorts of bits and pieces that we are doing but are not part of the big items we are working on
<gema> if there is any question please send us an email and we'll address it
<gema> amongst other things we are going to be rewriting the bits and pieces that are obsolete in the ubuntu QA wiki, if anyone wants to collaborate,
<gema> you are more than welcome!
<gema> just let us know so that we can coordinate the effort
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-test-case-definition
<gema> we discussed a test case definition at UDS and I proposed it to the CoP in canonical, they were happy with it and decided to embrace
<gema> that test case definition and start using it widely
<gema> so any test cases from now on will probably have that format
<gema> this blueprint is finished now, so I will make it disappear from our list of topics to discuss
<charlie-tca> o/
<gema> go ahead, charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Is that format available somwplace for community to use?
<gema> indeed, just a sec
<gema> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TestCase
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<gema> we will be putting all the links to all the new content in place, because the wiki is becoming very difficult to navigate
<gema> no problem
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-metrics
<gema> we haven't started working on this yet, so nothing to report this week
<gema> that is it in terms of blueprints, now the big topic of the week
<gema> #topic Alpha-1 Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Alpha-1 Testing
<gema> jibel: ?
<jibel> alpha 1 is due tomorrow, coverage could be better, here it is:
<jibel> Edubuntu	    50.00%
<jibel> Kubuntu		     5.56%
<jibel> Lubuntu		    42.86%
<jibel> Mythbuntu	    Untested
<jibel> Ubuntu		    56.63%
<jibel> Ubuntu Server	80.00%
<jibel> Xubuntu			50.00%
<jibel> For Ubuntu, architectures mac and powerpc are untested which explains the low coverage.
<jibel> Derivatives (especially Kubuntu) need your help for A1 testing.
<jibel> No release blocker bug found at the moment.
<jibel> The list of defects is available at http://91.189.93.73/qatracker/reports/defects/opened
<jibel> One is particularly annoying (bug 894768) it's easily reproducible in VMs but we have one report where it fails on hardware.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894768 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "Installation randomly fails with: File "/usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/install_misc.py", line 621, in copy_file targetfh.write(buf) IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894768
<jibel> If you've spare hardware and can install Ubuntu Precise Desktop _i386_ on it, then you can try to confirm this bug. that would help a lot.
<jibel> For this milestone we are using a new version of the iso tracker rewritten in Drupal 7, thanks to stgraber
<jibel> Details on ubuntu-devel mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-November/034495.html
<jibel> ..
<jibel> questions ?
<jibel> or comments
<gema> doesn't look like it
<gema> thanks for the update, jibel
<mike-gabriel> help
<mike-gabriel> ignore...
<gema> ok...
<gema> so moving on
<gema> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> any other topics or issues you'd like to bring up?
<gema> regarding the chairing of the meeting, I think we shouldn't force people to do it with a shuff
<gema> if someone wants they can, if not, I will be doing it
<gema> or if I am not able to , I hope someone will volunteer :D
<gema> but I think forcing people to chair may have detracted some collaborators from showing up
<gema> just a theory
<phillw> gema: I'll cover chairing if needed in an emergency :)
<gema> I will try to put an agenda that makes sense for next week and then I will offer the chairing of the next meeting in case anyone wants to do it the week after next
<gema> thanks a lot, phillw :)
<gema> ok, so any thoughts regarding the new format, better, worse, are we missing anything?
<patrickmw> its good
<nuclearbob> yeah
<nuclearbob> I think if we're missing anything it'll come up and we can add it
<gema> yep, I am very glad that so many new faces were here today
<charlie-tca> +1
<gema> let's keep the momentum going and see if we can build a good QA community around this meeting :)
<gema> thank you everyone for your time, see you next week!
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 17:43:46 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-30-17.00.moin.txt
<charlie-tca> Tank you for chairing
<phillw> gema: thansk for chairing
<jibel> thanks you gema
<gema> not a problem , thank you for coming and staying for the whole thing :D
<gema> I am staying to the bugs one now, because I need to tell them about our new tagging x)
<phillw> gema: just on the thoughts of progress from Lubuntu, our head of Devel did issue an email each week on progress last cycle. If he is doing same this cycle, would you like it linked to the Lubuntu area on the testing area?
<tenach> I always come in at the end of meetings or just after them...
<phillw> hiyas tenach LTNS :)
<tenach> Hi there phillw! Yeah, it really has been.
<gema> phillw: is this report about testing or about development strictly?
<gema> tenach: you'll make it next week , I am sure!
<phillw> it covers a summary of known bugs etc.
<tenach> gema: Yeah! I'm sure I will too.
<gema> phillw: maybe you could forward that to the ubuntu-qa list
<gema> phillw: so that we all benefit from it
<phillw> I'll ask Julien at 20:00 UTC :)
<gema> phillw: cool :)
<phillw> he he, just had to check, it is being held on here..
<gema> yep,no probs
<pedro_> hello!
<bil21al> hi
<komputes> hi pedro_
<charlie-tca> o/
<pedro_> lets start with the meeting
<pedro_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 18:00:51 2011 UTC.  The chair is pedro_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
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<pedro_> Welcome to our first Bugs meeting !
<gema> o/
<pedro_> as you might know the QA meeting was divided in two so this is the second part of it
 * alourie is back
<alourie> ah
<alourie> missed it
<pedro_> The agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meetings
<mfisch> is the bugs meeting weekly now at this time?  the wiki is inconsistent on that
<pedro_> there's not much items there so if you have any please keep it for the 'Others topics' topic
<pedro_> mfisch, yeah we need to update it based on a discussion ie: should we keep the monthly bugsquad meeting or not?
<pedro_> ok so first topic
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<pedro_> there was no previous actions so lets continue
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<pedro_> bdmurray, Ursinha anything you'd like to share?
<Ursinha> nothing in particular :)
<bdmurray> I fixed a bug yesterday which is a bit odd
<bdmurray> bug 887705
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887705 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "wrong warning about unsupported Ubuntu release when upgrading to precise" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887705
<bdmurray> The gist of it is that update-manager reads infromation from meta-release files on changelogs.ubuntu.com to determine what releases are supported etec
<bdmurray> so while you see the bug in update-manager it requires a fix in those files
<bdmurray> kind of wacky and I thought that might be good to know
<bdmurray> I've also been working with cprofitt on a bug reporting workflow diagram
<bdmurray> There may very well be duplicates of bug 894768 being reported
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894768 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "Installation randomly fails with: File "/usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/install_misc.py", line 621, in copy_file targetfh.write(buf) IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894768
<bdmurray> because it fails with different files bugs require manual inspection
<bdmurray> that's all I have
<pedro_> i was pinged by our QA folks regarding a failures they were seeing during the upgrade testing
<pedro_> so in the end it was bug 893826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893826 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu Precise) "symlinked docs are different between architectures, depending on dpkg-deb package order" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893826
<pedro_> it was fixed recently but worth keep an eye in case there's some dups
<pedro_> anything else, anyone ?
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<gema> o/
<pedro_> gema, please go ahead
<gema> we (QA-platform team) are working on a new tagging scheme that will allow us to assess the quality of the automated testing, we are going to start using
<gema> these tags for the automated testing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/TestingTypeAndBugTracking
<gema> just wanted to let you know we are going to be using them to be able to track things and generate reports for ISO testing
<gema> please, do not remove those tags :)
<gema> we haven't started, so if you have any suggestions, also welcome
<gema> ..
<bdmurray> gema: Does "upgrade testing" mean distribution upgrade or package upgrade?
<gema> for now, it means distribution upgrade
<gema> we are not doing any package upgrade testing yet
<nailora> o/
<pedro_> nailora, stage is all yours
<nailora> i sent a mail to the bugsquad mailing list yesterday https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-bugsquad/2011-November/003552.html
<pedro_> (thanks gema!)
<gema> (np)
<nailora> after pedos invitiation i thought it might be brought up here
<nailora> (if you are not prepared, nevermind, i will be happy to get replies via email)
<nailora> bascially it is about what to do about unsupported hardware and an overload of bug reports
<janak_dev> hi
<bdmurray> nailora: Have you heard of apport package hooks?
<bdmurray> With these you can change the bug reporting experience for reporters
<nailora> i do know a little bit about them, it might help to improve the situation for the future
<pedro_> is there any page for DebuggingScanners? like the DebuggingPrinting one? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingPrintingProblems
<njin> nope
<bdmurray> This would help gather the information for bugs and could prevent bug reporting
<pedro_> nailora, perhaps contact the developers/maintainers to help to create such page? that way you can also point reports there to start collecting more useful information
<pedro_> s/reports/reporters/g
<nailora> i am in contact with the developer, and i will create some wiki pages, one as a landing page that can be cited in bug reports to explain why they are not that helpful and one similar to the page mentioned for printers
<pedro_> nailora, awesome, thank you
<pedro_> any other thoughts on nailora's topic?
<bdmurray> I'll reply to the email later today
<pedro_> thanks bdmurray
<bdmurray> I think its important to prevent bugs from coming in if that's really what you want
<bdmurray> I mean you could close them all but they'll just come back
<micahg> o/
<bdmurray> so have the reporting process be as informative as possible
<pedro_> micahg, please go ahead
<micahg> so, this is about the simple scan bug thread right?
<bdmurray> yes
<micahg> ok, so I just wanted to point out that if there is a bug somewhere, that we should try to get it to the right place, open bugs isn't a problem as long as they're valid (i.e. if the problem is in SANE or some other component, move it to the right place), if it's truly not a bug, just configuration help or what not, then we can convert to question
<micahg> ..
<pedro_> thanks micahg
<pedro_> I have a topic as well
<pedro_> since the meetings are now divided into Testing and Bugs , should we delete the Monthly BugSquad Meeting and start adding such topics to this one?
<bdmurray> that makes sense to me
<charlie-tca> +1
<bil21al> sure
<micahg> +1
<bil21al> +1
<h01ger> ogra_, i've been online too long today, i need to go afk.. sorry that i'll miss the meeting, have fun & good results!
<pedro_> ok sounds good, lets do it , i'll update the wiki page and send an email with the info
<ogra_> h01ger, heh, thanks, i'm not in edu stuff anymore though, but i'll tell the guys in #edubuntu
<pedro_> [ACTION] pedro_ to update wiki + send email re the BugSquad Meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pedro_ to update wiki + send email re the BugSquad Meeting
<pedro_> and last for me, please notice that the Mentorship program is now closed
<pedro_> hggdh,  sent an email about that https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-bugsquad/2011-November/003550.html
<pedro_> thanks hggdh for taking care of it :-)
<pedro_> anything else? any extra topic?
<pedro_> seems not
<njin> pedro_: do you want to mentor me next mopnths ?
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chair Selection
<pedro_> njin, we can 'all' mentor you, just ask in the #ubuntu-bugs channel :-)
<njin> :-)
<pedro_> so who'd like to chair the next meeting?
<bdmurray> o/
<pedro_> thanks bdmurray
<pedro_> [ACTION] bdmurray to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to chair next meeting
<pedro_> ok seems that's all for today
<pedro_> thanks all !
<pedro_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 18:41:11 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-30-18.00.moin.txt
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing
<pedro_> no problem
<janak_dev> h
 * stgraber waves (and disappears for 5 minutes)
<dgroos> Howdy Edu-Linuxistas of various flavors
<alkisg> Hey all
 * mike-gabriel says hi (Debian Edu)
<arntog> hey all (debian edu)
 * mike-gabriel is present mainly read-only and has to leave before end of session
<kaareno> Hi
<highvoltage> eek
<highvoltage> sorry I've been following a live podcast and lost track of time
<stgraber> hey highvoltage
<highvoltage> good evening/afternoon everyone :)
<highvoltage> who else is here for the Edubuntu meeting?
<stgraber> I think that's quite a bit more than usual already :)
<highvoltage> our not-so-often updated Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> hehe, indeed
<stgraber> mike-gabriel: oh, forgot you're also a Debian edu guy :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: is it ok if we jump into the debian-edu stuff?
<mike-gabriel> stgraber: hi, I have to leave early, probably and cannot not write that much (other appointment)
<stgraber> highvoltage: no problem with that, as I said in #edubuntu, I'm not really around anyway
<highvoltage> I just want to give a little background, Debian-Edu has a script to incorporate an Ubuntu machine into a Debian-EDU LDAP network
<highvoltage> we wanted to incorporate it but ran out of time
<highvoltage> this release, stgraber is working on an authentication step in the edubuntu installer to authenticate against LDAP or AD
<mike-gabriel> highvoltage: not quite correct: there is the package debian-edu-config that integrates a debian desktop into a skolelinux network
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: aah
<highvoltage> well, so I added it to this meeting agenda so that we could perhaps get some low-latency communication
<mike-gabriel> the d-e-c package is also in Ubuntu btw. but probably in some random version...
<highvoltage> stgraber: which is why I hope you could give attention for a minute or two
<mike-gabriel> yes, I'm there.
<stgraber> ok, sounds interesting and we should definitely look into it
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: is there anything special about the debian-edu ldap configuration? I was talking to stgraber about it a while back and we're kind of hoping that the usual ldap option would work for debian-edu
<mike-gabriel> the debian-edu-config package is highly complex, otherwise I would say that you check out the code and take a look. But taking a look really takes time in that case...
<stgraber> for 12.04 I still think our best bet at supporting the biggest variety of setup without much trouble is to use sssd as it's going to be one single tool for pam/nss/kerberos and works with regular openldap, AD, edirectory, ...
<stgraber> FWIW I only plan on spending an hour or two implementing that feature for 12.04
<mike-gabriel> in d-e everything is based on DNS
<mike-gabriel> ldap.intern is the LDAP CNAME in DNS
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: which source package should we look at? just the one in the debian archives?
<mike-gabriel> d-e-c squeeze will use kerberos, so there also is a KDC in the net: tjener.intern
<stgraber> mike-gabriel: are you also using the "standard" DNS records? if so, sssd's auto-config script should work with debian edu
<mike-gabriel> due to kerberos restriction we have to use the fqdn tjener.intern (tjener is bokmal, I guess, that is one of the no dialects/language for server).
<mike-gabriel> then there is a autofs config hidden in LDAP
<mike-gabriel> /skole/<host>/home<X>
<mike-gabriel> via NFSv4, planned is to use sec=krb5i, but we still have no concept how to distribute the host/<machine> principals during installation
<mike-gabriel> then: skolelinux machines grab there hostname from DHCP during boot, for this network-manager is tweaked
<stgraber> sssd looks for ldap.<domain> and kerberos.<domain> by default, if these don't work, it falls back to microsoft's _kerberos.<domain>, _kerberos._tcp.<domain>, ...
<mike-gabriel> that is: in GOsaÂ² (LDAP-tool used in d-e squeeze) you add a host and give IP, MAC, DNS name and the host will boot into it's correct name
<mike-gabriel> there also are netgroups, e.g. for shutdownatnight
<mike-gabriel> and for NFSv4 access, so edubuntu clients should take netgroups libnss-ldap
 * highvoltage is absorbing all of this
<mike-gabriel> the main problem I currently see+face: having skolelinux workstations on the net and having ubuntu machines on the net, too.
<highvoltage> I guess it would be a good start just to have debian-edu-config working on edubuntu
<mike-gabriel> Both systems will use different software versions (GNOME 2.X and 2.Y), LibreOffice vs. Openoffice, etc.
<highvoltage> ok, edubuntu 12.04 won't have any gnome 2.x in it though
<mike-gabriel> I have a school here that wants a recipe for ubuntu desktop integration into the network (including server-side homes). I currently do not dare to run ubuntu clients and debian edu clients on the same homes...
<mike-gabriel> what will be in edubuntu 12.04? Unity?
<stgraber> sorry guys, got to go for a while now, LTSP failed to install in alpha-1, need to fix it
<highvoltage> yes, unity, and as an alternate option, gnome 3 fallback (which is basically the gnome 2 desktop on gnome 3)
<highvoltage> ok thanks stgraber
<mike-gabriel> so, gnome3 won't cause a problem now, but maybe later, when we talk about debian edu wheezy (which will use gnome3 then as well).
<mike-gabriel> I guess my approach for mixed networks will be to auto-create local homes on ubuntu machines and symlink the XDG folders to the corresponding folders in the homes on TJENER (main server)
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: I can take some time on Friday to try out debian-edu-config on Edubuntu and see where that gets us and write up an email about it. I have no idea what to expect but perhaps it would be as simple as updating some package names/paths?
<highvoltage> would that be useful?
<mike-gabriel> debian-edu-config provides many configs that will override configs of other packages, so beware.
<highvoltage> that sounds very, very undebiany :)
<mike-gabriel> see Debian BTS #311188
<highvoltage> I'll be sure to run it in a VM
<mike-gabriel> then debian-edu-config partially does things on installation, partially it provides many many helper scripts, CRONS, etc.
<mike-gabriel> then there are some scripts that are only needed during main server installation (a complete LDAP bootstrap, autoconfiguration of a Samba3 PDC, etc.
<highvoltage> is there perhaps a wiki page or something about it?
<mike-gabriel> so, you definitely do not need the whole d-e-c package
<mike-gabriel> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu
<mike-gabriel> and there is a good Skolelinux book by Klaus Ade Johnstad (and others) that applies to Debian Edu lenny...
<highvoltage> ok
<mike-gabriel> search for something like this: http://www.skolelinux.no/~klaus/newnotater/index.html
<mike-gabriel> probably the link does not provide the newest version
<highvoltage> the next edubuntu version will be LTS (long-term support) which we'll have to support for 5 years
<highvoltage> so we're very weary of including something that might potentially be a support nightmare
<mike-gabriel> normally, the critical part about skolelinux is the main server (and its correct bootstrap on installation)
<highvoltage> ok
<mike-gabriel> I know several setups with an etch server and squeeze clients (although d-e-c squeeze is not released yet).
<mike-gabriel> the project SVN repos is on Alioth. You need an account and a public SSH key deposited there.
<highvoltage> Should I be able to set it up fine with Debian Edu 6.0?
<highvoltage> (the server part, that is)
<mike-gabriel> there is a test DVD you can download: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/HowTo/TestCDinstall
 * mike-gabriel always needs time to find this link via search engine...
<mike-gabriel> This test CD is sometime broken but not at the moment (as much as I know)
<mike-gabriel> Then there will be an inofficial Debian Edu sprint at the coming weekend.
<highvoltage> ok
<mike-gabriel> we will be discussing on irc.debian.org #debian-edu channel
<highvoltage> I'll be there. I have a lot happening on Saturday, but on Sunday I could probably look at those client side scripts and ask some questions about it if it won't cause too much interuption to the sprint
<mike-gabriel> I guess that will be fine, however, I will only be there on friday night and saturday afternoon/night (CET)
<mike-gabriel> hmmm...
<mike-gabriel> I guess best strategy would be for you
<mike-gabriel> install a TJENER
<highvoltage> ok, I'm in the same timezone and I can be there saturday night
<mike-gabriel> install a normal Ubuntu workstation
<mike-gabriel> are you? I though you were canadian...
<mike-gabriel> then on the workstation, do all the fancy client integration stuff a unix workstation needs
<mike-gabriel> NTP -> ntp.intern (I think)
<mike-gabriel> LDAP -> ldap.intern
<mike-gabriel> Kerberos -> tjener.intern
<mike-gabriel> NFS -> AutoFs from LDAP
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: I live in Canada now, but I'm South African and back in South Africa for a few months :)
<mike-gabriel> NFS access control via netgroup
<mike-gabriel> :-)
<mike-gabriel> shutdown-at-night control via netgroup
 * highvoltage copies and pastes this in a note for later
 * mike-gabriel wonders what else...
<mike-gabriel> yep
<mike-gabriel> of course, libnss-ldap for users/groups and libpam-krb5 for Krb5-Auth
<highvoltage> long-term (like, a year from now), we'd also like to revive the Edubuntu Server side
<highvoltage> possibly also using some of the cool new stuff like FreeIPA
<mike-gabriel> ok!!!
<highvoltage> would Debian-Edu perhaps be interested in also investigating things like that for wheezy+1?
<mike-gabriel> cups-client setup
<mike-gabriel> BrowsePoll for ipp.intern
<mike-gabriel> dhcp-client including host-derival from DHCP
<mike-gabriel> DNS -> 10.0.2.2 (TJENER)
<mike-gabriel> Gateway 10.0.2.1
<highvoltage> that's hard-coded ?
<mike-gabriel> Oh, yes. Please read about the skolelinux network!!! The main server always is on 10.0.2.2, the gateway on 10.0.2.1.
<mike-gabriel> The gateway should be something like freedombox or ipfire or ipcop or similar.
<mike-gabriel> ahh.... squid proxy running on webcache.intern
<highvoltage> ok, will do
<mike-gabriel> so, in d-e-c there is a default firefox config that's really nice (disables the network options, so users cannot disable the proxy setup in firefox/iceweasel)
<mike-gabriel> ok, will do means stop?
<highvoltage> nope :)
<mike-gabriel> :-)
<mike-gabriel> ok...
<highvoltage> will do = I'll go read the network docs
<arntog> highvoltage, we will have a small gathering in Trondheim, Norway this weekend, to get some more hands-on experince with debianedu, but it is possible that we play around with a ubuntu/edubuntu client as well
<mike-gabriel> d-e-c also provides a wpad.dat for browser auto-configuration
<mike-gabriel> hi arnt
<highvoltage> arntog: nice
<arntog> highvoltage, I know some of the people that will participate is in to ubuntu as well :)
<arntog> hi mike-gabriel
<mike-gabriel> the advantage of a pre-defined network setup is certification for supporters.
<highvoltage> we need to figure out how we want to handle some types of configuration in edubuntu as well, we had some tools for gnome and desktop stuff that are no longer support
<mike-gabriel> once you know how d-e works you can support any school that runs it.
<highvoltage> *supported
<mike-gabriel> of course, there will be customizations on site, but the basis is really fixed.
<highvoltage> but I guess that should be seperate from the authentication stuff since someone might want to use a configuration manager or something else for that
<mike-gabriel> once you have a ubuntu client working within a skolelinux network, it might become really interesting to provide this edubuntu desktop as a diskless workstation. Skolelinux has a terminal server profile that pre-configures an LTSP server (that I normally tweak and transform into an X2Go server).
<mike-gabriel> and as a side product (intentionally) the LTSP server profile also offers diskless workstations.
<highvoltage> arntog, mike-gabriel: I've copied and pasted mike-gabriel's suggestions in a note, I'll be reading those suggested docs and do a debian-edu server / ubuntu client installation and check in over the weekend for some questions, updates and feedback.
<mike-gabriel> Our schools here in Nothern Germany love that...
<mike-gabriel> Yes, do so. I will be only 24/7 so I may answer questions later whenever I see that you wrote...
<highvoltage> I think I'll write another update to everyone about it in 2 weeks or so to keep everyone in the loop (I think a month when we have a meeting again is too long), does that sound ok?
<mike-gabriel> ok!
<highvoltage> mike-gabriel: ok
<arntog> ok
<highvoltage> and if there's anything else, feel free to poke us on #edubuntu on this network as well
<mike-gabriel> sure!
<highvoltage> stgraber, alkisg and myself are usually there and if not, we tend to leave our session open somewhere
<mike-gabriel> right!
 * highvoltage can't think of anything more at this point (been up since way too early :) )
<mike-gabriel> same with me (and h0lger, who is release manager of d-e) on irc.debian.org #debian-edu
<highvoltage> ok, I'm usually always there
<mike-gabriel> pop in on #debian-edu at the weekend and we will discuss more
<highvoltage> I will do so
<highvoltage> well, thanks guys!
<mike-gabriel> thanks!
<arntog> thanks
<stgraber> looks like the longest edubuntu meeting ever ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: at least, longest one in a while :)
<alkisg> :)
<dgroos> and 200 people ;)
<highvoltage> btw, Edubuntu Council elections will be running soon, I was supposed to send the list of nominations to the CC on Monday, but haven't had the time.
<highvoltage> I'll do so tomorrow.
<highvoltage> We've also started our application for LTS with the Technical Board
<highvoltage> we're applying for 5 years LTS on conditional on Kubuntu also getting 5 years LTS status
<highvoltage> otherwise we'll also do the 3 year support thing with them
<highvoltage> we also have to produce a list of packages that we want to support for the next TB meeting
<highvoltage> I'll post about that to the list
<highvoltage> and stgraber got the todo list item to poke Kubuntu to apply (they haven't yet) but I've gone ahead and done some pokage too :)
<highvoltage> there's 7 minutes left, anything else before we wrap up?
<dgroos> Has the meeting agenda been updated to reflect current interests?
<stgraber> alpha-1 will be released tomorrow, anyone who took action items at UDS should make sure they either have these targeted for a1 done or consider moving them to a2
<highvoltage> dgroos: anyone is free to edit the wiki page to add their interests, I guess it could do with some cleanup and updates
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'm moving the wallpaper / installer slideshow stuff to a2, but I think we discussed that already
<dgroos> I saw the community item of, "Provide 'beginners' with basic but complete setup instructions.
<stgraber> highvoltage: FWIW I updated the slideshow on Sunday (nothing big, just dropping gbrainy, changing the welcome slide and updating the under the hood stuff)
<dgroos> was that from last time I was at a meeting?  looks like something I might have put up :)
<highvoltage> dgroos: we still have *lots* of requests for that to the edubuntu-contac address. it's very much in demand, there's one person who contacted us who wants to work on something though
<highvoltage> dgroos: might have been, it's been there  along time
<dgroos> 'k
<dgroos> Seems like it's a tough goal because of the 6-month Ubuntu update where things can change so much.
<highvoltage> indeed. would be nice to have it at least for the LTS's
<dgroos> But having something like greatly lowers the entry bar.
<highvoltage> we have some docs that we maintian on edubuntu.org for each release
<dgroos> highvoltage: good goal...
<highvoltage> the basics like: how to install edubuntu, how to install ltsp, links to upstream docs
<highvoltage> but it's not something that you can really print and bind in a book or something
<dgroos> Could we have that mirrored in a few places?
<dgroos> Are those docs on edubuntu.org in a wiki?
<highvoltage> I guess we could. Personally I just have zero time right now to take that on, but I'd gladly provide anyone who wants to with the information or help that they might need
<highvoltage> nope, just pages on the edubuntu website. so for now they're not translated (or at least not translated where you can easily find them)
<highvoltage> I'm not so sure that wikis are the best place to do documentaiton either
<dgroos> Well, maybe having it mirrored might not be the solution.
<highvoltage> indeed
<stgraber> we moved stuff to the website because wiki was a mess to keep updated and to know what's on it
<dgroos> True, maybe docs don't belong on wiki, or at least for an LTS.
<dgroos> right.
<stgraber> currently anything that's on the website gets updated for sure for every release (also the reason why we keep what's on the website to a minimum)
<highvoltage> I'd like to have more of our documentation packaged so that we could actually ship it with the system
<kalosaurusrex> Is someone from the QA Team (a team leader perhaps?) around?
<highvoltage> but since we usually update our docs single days before our release (it's the only time we have to do it) it's too late for that
<dgroos> I think docs on Edubuntu.org is a fine solution though.
<stgraber> kalosaurusrex: this is the Ubuntu meeting channel, we're currently in an Edubuntu meeting. I'd suggest #ubuntu-quality
<highvoltage> the website is also usually the first place people look for it
<highvoltage> and http://edubuntu.org/documentation isn't hard to find, at least
<dgroos> I guess I haven't been there much in a while.  I'll check it out again.
<highvoltage> but yes, any help on that would be appreciated
<jmarsden|work> stgraber: Isn't there an Lubuntu meeting here at 20:00 UTC?  Or am I confused?
<highvoltage> for every hour someone spends on docs they're probably saving many hours for lots of people out there
<highvoltage> I guess we should wrap up Edubuntu then if we're spilling over.
<highvoltage> thanks everyone!
<dgroos> For sure.  I'll check it out and get back to you.
<stgraber> jmarsden|work: quite possible, our meeting just went over the 1 hour mark :)
<jmarsden|work> stgraber: OK, thanks.
<highvoltage> Meeting adjourned, #edubuntu is open 24/7 as always :)
<wxl> well we're the last hour so we can go over as much as possible ;)
<wxl> we've got 8 hours until the next meeting. let's make the best out of it!
 * jmarsden|work only has a 1 hour lunch break... asking for an 8 hour lunch break might get me some funny looks :)
<wxl> heh
<gilir> wxl, I'll not be able to talk during 8h :)
<wxl> ok, enough jokes, let's get this party started, gilir
<stephen-smally> let's start the meeting, i've math tomorrow
<gilir> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 20:07:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<gilir> Agenda is available here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<gilir> [TOPIC] Show of hands to gauge attendance
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Show of hands to gauge attendance
 * wxl shows both hands
<gilir> o/
<wxl> \o/
<jmarsden|work> o/
<gilir> Yorvyk, here ? :)
 * phillw present
 * Unit193 
<david_j_r> o) (numpty user - lurking)
<stephen-smally> o/
<gilir> [TOPIC] Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<gilir> quick review of last week actions
<gilir> people still comment on the website page
<gilir> I hope to have enough information for next week to decide something
<wxl> from what i read briefly on the mailing list it sounds like the splinter group we had is now working with mario and they're working on a new proposal. sounds like it's happening
<gilir> Alpha 1 ISO testing, if you want to help : http://91.189.93.73/ :)
<wxl> on that subject julien said he will endeavour to get ppc to be included in the next round of testing
<gilir> and work in progress for lxscreenshot
<gilir> it seems that Yorvyk is not here, so I let his items for now
<gilir> [TOPIC] Discuss ARM ISO for Lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Discuss ARM ISO for Lubuntu
<phillw> speak of the devil :)
<stephen-smally> oh, i would like ARM isos
<wxl> i could see if i could get it going on my palm pre ;)
<gilir> well the problem is to have hardware + people who want to test ISOs during the cycle :)
<stephen-smally> i would like to put in on the RaspBerty PI, i will buy it during christmas
<stephen-smally> *RaspBerry Pi
<gilir> some volunteers ? :)
<jmarsden|work> gilir: Does ARM mean ARMv7 and later?  Note the very low cost Rasperry Pi board will be out in December but it uses ARMv6, the project is more or less giving up on Lubuntu because Ubuntu does not officially do ARMv6...
<gilir> jmarsden|work, it will be the same than Ubuntu
<jmarsden|work> OK, so stephen-smally ... note you won't be able to run Lubuntu on a Rasperry Pi.
<stephen-smally> damn, that's why i'm switching to arch XD
<wxl> the pre has an armv7
<wxl> i'd be into giving it a shot
<gilir> well, maybe for the short term, sending a mail to the mailing list explaning the situation
<gilir> I'm not sure there are enough people to test + debug problems on ARM for lubuntu currently :)
<stephen-smally> agree
<gilir> and +1 arch is probably enough for this cycle :)
<jmarsden|work> gilir: I tend to agree; Rasperbby Pi support would get us more (I'd buy a board or two) ... but I'm not buying a $200 board just to test ARMv7.
<gilir> [ACTION] Send a mail about ARM ISO on the mailing list
<meetingology> ACTION: Send a mail about ARM ISO on the mailing list
<gilir> ok let's go the next topic
<wxl> agree.. i think arm is going to be increasingly important, but it's not a huge hot button right now
<gilir> [TOPIC] Addition of progress report on QA area
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Addition of progress report on QA area
<stephen-smally> o/ question
<gilir> phillw, it's yours :)
<phillw> it was mooted and pretty much agreed at the QA meeting that an update of the progress be linked to the QA wiki area.
<phillw> I was kinda hoping gilir will be doing the weekly emails this cycle?
<phillw> Lunbuntu got 43% sign off for pre-alpha1 testing (not too bad... Ubuntu only got 57%).
<gilir> phillw, what do you mean by a weekly email ? about QA ?
<gilir> ah the ISO testing ?
<jmarsden|work> phillw: Isn't seeing the work item updates in the blueprints acceptable to QA?  Why create another document?
<phillw> gilir: an update as to any bugs solved / known etc in a digest format.
<phillw> jmarsden|work: they have are adding sections for Xubuntu & Lubuntu.
<gilir> phillw, do you have a link ? for an example ?
<phillw> It is to encourage testers to try and test more areas.
<jmarsden|work> +1 for link/example :)
<phillw> gilir: it was only agreed 2 hours ago, it is to be set up.
 * gilir look at the log
<jmarsden|work> phillw: Is there one for "big brother" Ubuntu already?  Or was *that* only agreed 2 hours ago too?
<phillw> (17:09:49) gema: #action gema to add lubuntu and Xubuntu testing updates to the agenda
<phillw> they will as part of that add a section to QA area for both flavours.
<jmarsden|work> phillw: Is there a section like it for Unity-based Ubuntu already, and if so, link please?
<gilir> phillw, that means we need to do a status of bug fixed for this meeting ?
<phillw> I suggested that we use the update that gilir issues to keep the QA team up to date, they also asked that I cc it to the qa mailing list.
<phillw> It is early days, they are bringing in new stuff for this cycle,
<jmarsden|work> So we're being asked to do something for which there is no example or template?  Hmmm.
<phillw> for those interested in testing then the meeting logs are at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-30-17.00.moin.txt
<phillw> jmarsden|work: there are templates, they were discussed, but mainly it is about getting the pre-milestones 100% tested.
<wxl> oh man well i'm glad i didn't start testing
<gilir> phillw, ok, I propose that we will look at the next meeting to see what's going  for this
<phillw> gilir: fine by me, it was news to me, there is quite a lot going on :)
<gilir> I'm not sure I understand what we need to do right now, or the benefice for us
<gilir> [ACTION] Keep an eye on the next QA meeting for the specific Lubuntu part
<meetingology> ACTION: Keep an eye on the next QA meeting for the specific Lubuntu part
<wxl> whine i wanna start testing NOW ;)
<jmarsden|work> wxl: Go ahead, this doesn't stop you :)
<jmarsden|work> (well, maybe wat until this meeting is over!)
<gilir> still no Yorvyk
<phillw> wxl: ping me after the meeting, I will send you the links for the QA tests.
<gilir> [TOPIC] Various news on Lubuntu devs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Various news on Lubuntu devs
<wxl> thx phillw
<gilir> ok just a quick summarize of the recent news
<Yorvyk_> Hello
<gilir> I started to work on the session manager, there will be some change after the Alpha 1 on this
<gilir> work also was done on Lxscreenshot, which should be already useable :)
<gilir> Yorvyk_, ah :)
<gilir> Yorvyk_, ready for your items ?
<stephen-smally> confirm about lxscreenshot, is very simple, but should be ok for most of the users
<Yorvyk> Can  anybody hear me
<phillw> Yorvyklod and clear
<phillw> *loud*
<wxl> lxscreenshot works, but i wish there was more to it.. i'd rather use scrot at this point
<gilir> stephen-smally, I plan to include it in lxde git tree, so after you shoudl prepare an official release
<Yorvyk> \o/  at last!
<gilir> wxl, you can ping stephen-smally about the features you want ;)
<stephen-smally> yes, i'm anyway looking for screen selection.
<gilir> stephen-smally, also, I'll try to work on lsc, to get a release ready for the next week
<gilir> at least, translation import is working now :)
<stephen-smally> gilir: we tested it a lot in these days and it seems to be stable
<stephen-smally> but the po files aren't builded :-(
<gilir> stephen-smally, yes, I think it's time to release something :)
<gilir> stephen-smally, look at the last revision, you should have .po files now
<stephen-smally> ohoh, found a bug now, time to solve it ;-)
<gilir> Yorvyk, are you with us now ? :)
<Yorvyk> Yes, I think so
<gilir> ok, moving to your items
<gilir> [TOPIC] Reporting minutes of meeting to Ubuntu News
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Reporting minutes of meeting to Ubuntu News
<gilir> Yorvyk, ^
<Yorvyk> I thought it may be a good idea to do a quick report of the meetings
<gilir> do you think we have enough interesting topics for them ?
<Yorvyk> as it may get more interest and a wider audiance
 * gilir is not sure it's the case :)
<Yorvyk> Why not?
<gilir> Yorvyk, maybe you can contact them, to see if there are interested ?
<Yorvyk> I will
<gilir> [ACTION] Yorvyk to contact Ubuntu News
<meetingology> ACTION: Yorvyk to contact Ubuntu News
<Yorvyk> Other news outlets appear to use Ubuntu News for their articles
<gilir> well, if they are OK, I don't see any problems about this
<Yorvyk> By the way - this meeting wasn't on the fridge calander :(
<wxl> Yorvyk: it was
<phillw> Yorvyk: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/
<phillw> it was :)
<wxl> but you had to use the "agenda" view to see it
<Yorvyk> Ah!
<wxl> or weekly probably would have worked
<wxl> month view truncated the list
<gilir> too many meetings :)
<wxl> not sure why there were no scrollbars
<Unit193> I have that calendar added to my list of GCalendars, that's another way to see it
<phillw> I'll look at trying to squeeze it into the topic on the two chennels
<Yorvyk> OK, next
<david_j_r> I'm at fridge calendar, and not seeing it in _any_ view :?
<gilir> [TOPIC] Basic user documentation all in one place, with index
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Basic user documentation all in one place, with index
<Yorvyk> This hads been mentioned to me a few people
<Yorvyk> I'm not quite sure what they want - and nor are they Ithink.
<gilir> Yorvyk, it's about the wiki pages on help.ubuntu.com ?
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: What is "Basic User Documentation"?  man pages???
<Yorvyk> People seem to have problems with the wiki
<gilir> what kind of problems ?
<Yorvyk> I think what people are trying to ask me for is a basic set of howtos for each application.
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: Do you have a clear definition of what "Basic User Documentation" means?  Otherwise, we can't put it in one place...
<jmarsden|work> Yorvyk: Each application?  That's thousands of apps...
<phillw> Yorvyk: I know that mario popped a site map on to help navigation
<Yorvyk> I don't and it is hard work trying to get people to explain what they want.  I've asked for examples from them.  I thought I'd bring it up to see if anybody had any ideas
<phillw> oops, soz, he updated the links. but there is a site map, not too sure what else we can do given the limitations of wiki?
<Yorvyk> I think the problem with the Wiki is that people aren't sure what terms to uses to find what they want.
<david_j_r> I'm just a newcomer to Lubuntu, but it's my future. I could would appreciate a list of the L* apps - e
<david_j_r> i.e., the Lubuntu/LXDE specific ones.
<david_j_r> Maybe already there?
<wxl> yeha maybe we could just have a "help with apps" page
<wxl> with all the lists
<david_j_r> The "index" may be the key here.
<phillw> I see no reason that such a thing could not be put on the FAQ/Guides area?
<gilir> something more like this : https://help.ubuntu.com/11.10/ubuntu-help/index.html ?
<wxl> i agree phillw
<wxl> i like gilir
<phillw> gilir: looks good :)
<david_j_r> oooh - that's nice!
<wxl> as long as it can be edited just the same as the wiki
<phillw> it is a wiki apge :P
<Yorvyk> I think that's what they're looking for
<gilir> we need someone to do it :p
<wxl> why don't we start with a simple list?
<wxl> i mean crap i could start that
<Yorvyk> I'll point a couple of them at that page and ask them if that's what they want.
 * phillw runs into corner.... Yeah... i'll put into my list, please give me a week after someone provides me a complete list of L* programmes!
<jmarsden|work> phillw: for now, you can get a quick list of lx* packages by doing    dpkg-query -W lx\*     in a terminal window
<gilir> Yorvyk, good idea, maybe you can start a prototype later
<wxl> i can do it phillw
<phillw> wxl: by all means, go for it. I'll help you if you get stuck.
<gilir> wxl, can I put an action for you about this ?
<Yorvyk> The people I'm talking to don't like/understand mailing list or forums
<phillw> jmarsden|work: I killed my VM's ... can't run Lubuntu atm :'(
<wxl> sure gilir
<jmarsden|work> phillw: Ah... OK, email me your VM problem.
<gilir> [ACTION] Start to work on an index wiki page  for help (like https://help.ubuntu.com/11.10/ubuntu-help/index.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: Start to work on an index wiki page  for help (like https://help.ubuntu.com/11.10/ubuntu-help/index.html)
<gilir> ok, I think it's time to end the meeting
<Yorvyk> OK
<gilir> no emergency for this week ?
<gilir> oh, and if you don't know what to do tonight : http://91.189.93.73/ ;)
<wxl> hhehehe
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 21:03:00 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-30-20.07.moin.txt
<Yorvyk> :-D
<phillw> I do apologise for not being around too much, as you know - I had a fall out with my server provider & am in the middle of getting the new server set up!
<gilir> thanks everyone :)
<phillw> Thanks for chairing, gilir
<wxl> btw i must say again that lubuntu rox. i am amazed that i can run lubuntu (vm) on lubuntu with as little ram as i have and a throttled processor and neither system totally sucks
 * gilir time to finish ISO testing :)
<phillw> I'll get my VM's up in the next few days.
<wxl> alright so we're done so i'm out
<stephen-smally> byr
<stephen-smally> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-01
<AlanBell> the meeting bot seems to have taken a short sabatical, should be back in the not too distant future
<jasonjang> lamont: How R U?
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  1 10:50:50 2011 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  1 10:50:54 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-01-10.50.moin.txt
<head_victim> A quick meeting is a good meeting.
<AlanBell> :)
<mainerror> lol
<ogra_> foo
 * ogra_ gets pre-meeting coffee
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  1 14:59:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<NCommander> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111201
<NCommander> so who's here?
<ogra_> o/
 * GrueMaster is self-caffinating.
<NCommander> ok, I think we have enough people
<NCommander> We have no action items from last meeting, so
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Standing Items
<NCommander> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<ogra_> just because you didnt note them down :P
<ogra_> i was supposed to get the Wi tracker filled :)
<ogra_> if anyone is missing a spec he works on, please let me know
<infinity> I probably need to go through all mine and make them sane.
<NCommander> ogra_: oh d'oh. I  grepped for #action in the log but I used [action] >.<;
<infinity> I've been too busy working to work.
<NCommander> I need to be consistent or my greps break
<ogra_> well, at least make sure they are targeted for precise and approved
<ogra_> (thats for everyone, to have your spec show up these two need to be true)
<ogra_> and it helps if they have an owner ... i think there is one jani spec that doesnt yet
<ogra_> (i'll talk to him when he is around)
<ogra_> NCommander, move
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> Not muchto say here
<NCommander> so
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ogra_> paolo is moving and not online until monday
<ogra_> afaik he spammed GrueMaster with some SRU kernels though :)
<ogra_> cooloney was working on an internal project for me so i doubt he would have much to report
<GrueMaster> Only SRU kernel I currently have is for Oneiric omap4.  Finished testing yesterday.
<GrueMaster> I also tested a slew of test kernels for bug 861296.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 861296 in linux (Ubuntu) "mmap fails to allocate 2030Mb heap on ARM" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861296
<GrueMaster> It should make the next SRU release.
<ogra_> well, its mainly important for the buildds
<GrueMaster> yes.
<NCommander> #optic ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> #topic ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> helps if I spell it right
<jhobbs> what is FTBFS
<NCommander> jhobbs: Failure to Build from Source
<infinity> jhobbs: Failure To Build From Source.
<jhobbs> thanks
<ogra_> well, we should all help on armhf currently
<infinity> And with a new port online, I'd like to encourage everyone to look at the armhf FTBFS lists and go to town.
<ogra_> just grab a failed build
<infinity> (There will be a mass-give-back in a couple of hours, so... After that) :P
<ogra_> http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/primary-precise-armhf.html
<ogra_> there is the overview
<jhobbs> thanks, i was about to ask for that =)
<ogra_> how about the "normal" ftbfs ... NCommander anything noticeable ?
<NCommander> jhobbs: feel free to poke any of us in #ubuntu-arm if you need help with FTBFS fixing
<NCommander> ogra_: I haven't reviewed the list extensively since last week
 * ogra_ neither, i was watching hf all the time
<ogra_> ruby needs some love there
<ogra_> on the non hf
<ogra_> and ooooh surprise !!!
<ogra_> telepathy-glib
<ogra_> :P
<NCommander> if anyone says mono, I'm jumping off the tallest building I can find
<ogra_> mono is over and out :P
<GrueMaster> I think doko pinged us about ruby a few days ago in #ubuntu-arm.
<ogra_> for hf i thought
<infinity> mono has a few more testsuite failures on armhf than it does on armel, otherwise fine.
<ogra_> where it has a timeout
 * GrueMaster shouts "MONO LIVES"
<ogra_> lol
<infinity> ruby is suffering testsuite timeouts, yeah.
<infinity> We'll have to poke at that.
<infinity> I'm told it might be a kernel bug. :/
<infinity> Related to the test timeouts I saw with python and perl (transiently, apparently) as well.
<ogra_> well, is that true for non hf ?
<infinity> Sometimes, maybe.
<ogra_> ah, yeah
<infinity> It's a bit vague.
<ogra_> it is
<ogra_> same error message in the log
<ogra_> well, lets move
<ogra_> NCommander, ...
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
<ogra_> it builds !!!
<ogra_> (some packages at least)
<GrueMaster> How close are we to getting armhf images?  I would imagine core would be first.
<ogra_> i have also added info about it to the A1 announcement
<ogra_> GrueMaster, a week or two for core i would guess
<infinity> Core could be only a few days away, depending on effort put in.
<infinity> And luck.
<infinity> Other images, dunno.
<ogra_> yeah, others will take lots of time i would guess
<infinity> We have two toolchain bugs we're still fixing, but other than that, it's just a lot of grunt work and CPU time.
<GrueMaster> Need kernel support, I would assume?
<ogra_> not in A2 timeframe i bet
<infinity> kernels would be nice.
<ogra_> according to kernel team they are uploaded
<infinity> ogra_: Kernel team only does omap.
<ogra_> omap4 too
<ogra_> paolo ...
<ogra_> i talked to jani, he is aware that we should get ac100 onto hf as well
<ogra_> not sure what to do for mx5
<infinity> Yeah, there's been no linux-ti-omap4 upload yet.
<infinity> jcrigby would be the man to bug about mx5.
<infinity> Anyhow.  We'll sort it.
<ogra_> yep
<GrueMaster> We are still running the Oneiric omap4 kernel.  Should be resolved next week though.
<infinity> Kernels don't do us much good just yet anyway.  If they land in a week or so, I'm happy.
<ogra_> GrueMaster, hopefully soon, we need 4460 fixes
<ogra_> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> we have A1's !!
<ogra_> apart from the omap network issue seems they look all good
<ogra_> *really* good given its A1
<ogra_> kudos to GrueMaster for the test effort !!!
<ogra_> awesome work
<GrueMaster> heh
<NCommander> +1 GrueMaster
<ogra_> nothing else from me
<GrueMaster> The images oddly are not much different from Oneiric.
<ogra_> yeah
<infinity> Good. :P
<ogra_> we didnt change a thing but general package updates
<ogra_> NCommander, move
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<GrueMaster> On the daily image build issue, I only show 1 fewer on armel vs x86 since the opening of P
<GrueMaster> sigh.
<NCommander> ?
<GrueMaster> Automation work on SRU testing is going strong.  Lot of fixes to the wrt test suite.
<infinity> This is an upsetting statistic?
<NCommander> GrueMaster: seems the archive skew patch is doing its job
<NCommander> Archive skew though isn't the only reason images may fail to exist, just the most common
<GrueMaster> s/wrt/qrt
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> pretty well it seems
<NCommander> #chair ogra
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: ogra
<meetingology> Current chairs: NCommander ogra
<NCommander> #chair ogra_
<meetingology> Current chairs: NCommander ogra ogra_
<GrueMaster> With NCommander's help, I can now automate Natty installs for SRU testing.  Once we have Maverick, I can automate 90% of the SRU process.
<NCommander> brb
<ogra_> awesome !!!
<NCommander> back, sorry about that
<GrueMaster> Still running into issues with the qrt tests.  For every 3 fixes to make them work on arm, a new "feature" gets added that breaks.
<ogra_> fun
<GrueMaster> Which means I need to review and figure out why they broke.
<NCommander> I'm working on cooking the maverick voodoo now
<ogra_> move ?
<GrueMaster> I would like to propose that going forward, we enable netinstall for all supported platforms, as it will greatly help in future SRU testing efforts.
<NCommander> #topic Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> our planning for the 11.12 is done already!
<NCommander> GrueMaster: we almost always do, omap was an exception to that rule (I always do enablement with netboot images, but the omap4 booting from SD card pre-empted that design at first)
<rsalveti> https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/11.12
<rsalveti> please have a look at the blueprints we have
<rsalveti> and subscribe if you want to be updated about the progress
<rsalveti> the u-boot related ones are the most interesting for the images I believe
<NCommander> rsalveti: is there a status.linaro.org page or something?
<rsalveti> we'll try to enable SPL for omap 3 and also try to have only one SPL that would work for omap 3 and 4
<rsalveti> NCommander: yes, but still need some rework
<ogra_> rsalveti, is the settop box stuff being worked on with the #ubuntu-tv team ?
<rsalveti> because we changed our process a little bit
<rsalveti> ogra_: not yet I believe, something we need to discuss with them
<rsalveti> don't know if they are interested on xmbc for now
<rsalveti> or if they want to create a different solution
<ogra_> well, they are working on UI elements on top of the player SW
<rsalveti> what we're trying to do is to enable the needed patches to make it working fine wiht omap 4
<rsalveti> like, making it to work with glesv2 and gstreamer
<rsalveti> ogra_: oh, ok, so will sync with them
<ogra_> i.e. unity adjustments to run on top of a running stream/tv show etc
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/linaro-ubuntu/+spec/push-multiarch-changes-for-cross-precise
<rsalveti> this is also going to affect precise
<ogra_> thats the one smagoun is intrested in, right =
<ogra_> ?`
<rsalveti> and hopefully firefox will be cross-buildable at precise at the end of the month
<rsalveti> ogra_: yes
<rsalveti> ogra_: but the other one that smagoun created is still to be approved it seems
<rsalveti> let me try to find it
<ogra_> not sure who has to do that
<rsalveti> maybe foundations?
<ogra_> might be
<ogra_> wasnt that cross live-build stuff ?
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-arm-p-cross-compilable-packages
<ogra_> ah
<rsalveti> this is the one related with cross build enablement
<ogra_> well, if yours gets implemented i dont see a reason to have an ubuntu one as well
<rsalveti> sure, but ours is more related with firefox atm
<ogra_> effectively they will implement the same
<rsalveti> this was related with ubuntu-core and a few other packages
<ogra_> right
<rsalveti> I was just worried that this is not yet approved
<rsalveti> and don't know who is responsible for it at the ubuntu side
<ogra_> well, we wont have resources i bet ...
<rsalveti> something to check with smagoun
<ogra_> once there are hf images etc we will get very very busy
<ogra_> yup
<rsalveti> ogra_: yeah
<rsalveti> another one that we just need to be approved is the libjpeg-turbo one
<rsalveti> let me find the link
<ogra_> though server is currently on halt ... probably NCommander is bored enough to look at this spec :)
<ogra_> why does that need a spec ?
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/replace-libjpeg-by-libjpeg-turbo
<ogra_> i thought thats just a transition and already approved
<rsalveti> ogra_: kate request this blueprint to be created
<ogra_> k
<rsalveti> tom gall is working on it
<ogra_> yep
 * NCommander wimpers
<rsalveti> but she also wanted a bp to track the work
<fabo> ogra_: it ins't approved yet
<rsalveti> davidm: can you approve this blueprint?
<ogra_> tell him to ping me if he needs sponsoring
<rsalveti> ogra_: sure
<infinity> ogra_: It's already well underway with Foundations.
<infinity> ogra_: Including much back and forth review and critique.
<ogra_> yeah, thoght so
<rsalveti> guess this is just to track the work
<ogra_> so probably foundations should own it
<rsalveti> so it can be part of status and so on
<ogra_> doesnt really seem arm related given we will switch for all arches
<rsalveti> yeah, fair enough
<rsalveti> so will check the other with smagoun and this with foundations
<rsalveti> guess that's all form my side then
<rsalveti> any question?
<ogra_> any heavy u-boot breakage we need to be prepared for ?
<rsalveti> ogra_: not atm
<ogra_> apart from changing the build scripts for new MLO
<ogra_> great !
<rsalveti> ogra_: once we have a newer version or a big change, we'll let you know about it
<ogra_> oh
<ogra_> rsalveti, have you seen the hf discussion above ?
<NCommander> thanks rsalveti
<ogra_> we will need hf as target arch in mx5
<ogra_> since linaro maintains that kernel
<rsalveti> ogra_: sure
<ogra_> i guess you want a bug ?
<rsalveti> ogra_: we just need to know when we'll be able to push the package
<ogra_> now :)
<infinity> rsalveti: Yesterday.
<ogra_> or tomorrow
<rsalveti> ogra_: great
<ogra_> or so :)
<rsalveti> so are we able to bootstrap armhf already?
<ogra_> no hurry, but it should happen at some point
<infinity> Almost.
<NCommander> rsalveti: we have it building in LP
<rsalveti> last I saw infinity was still fighting with it
<ogra_> rsalveti, we're building already
<rsalveti> great then, will talk with jcrigby then
<rsalveti> thanks for the heads up
<infinity> --variant=minbase should work in about an hour. :P
<infinity> (And I'll have core images building tonight)
<rsalveti> infinity: :-)
<infinity> GrueMaster: --^
<GrueMaster> Yea.
<NCommander> go infinity go
<ogra_> http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/primary-precise-armhf.html
<ogra_> rsalveti, ^^
<rsalveti> ogra_: thanks
<infinity> Okay, maybe in two hours.
<ogra_> NCommander, move
<infinity> I'll just settle for "tonight". ;)
 * ogra_ translates "tonight -> monday" :P
<rsalveti> monday is still fine ;-)
<ogra_> infinite optimism ... ;)
<ogra_> ... from infinity
<NCommander> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
 * ogra_ has nothing
 * NCommander also has nothing
<ogra_> anyone ?
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<NCommander> #endemeeting
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> try again
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  1 15:51:19 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-01-14.59.moin.txt
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<ogra_> ha
<ogra_> first :P
<ogra_> dont forget the call in 10min
<NCommander> stupid fingers
<beuno> hello hello!
<beuno> Community Council meeting in 8
<czajkowski> Aloha
<YokoZar> hey there
<Gwaihir> hello!
<highvoltage> moo
<dholbach> o//
<akgraner> time to start
<akgraner> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  1 17:00:24 2011 UTC.  The chair is akgraner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<akgraner> Welcome to the CC meeting - who's here
<akgraner> o/
<dholbach> Mark might be a bit late, but should make it
<YokoZar> o/
<czajkowski> o/
<dholbach> \\o
<beuno> o/
<highvoltage> o>-<
<highvoltage> oops, let me rotate 90Â°
<akgraner> great - so looks like first up is welcoming the Edubuntu Council
<highvoltage> \o/
<czajkowski> highvoltage: aloha there thanks for coming
<akgraner> #topic #Edubuntu Council Review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: #Edubuntu Council Review
<dholbach> it's great to have you here :)
<akgraner> highvoltage, welcome!
<highvoltage> stgraber, alkisg: are you around?
<highvoltage> thanks!
<alkisg> Hi all
<dholbach> alkisg, highvoltage, stgraber (who else is here?): how have your last few months been in Edubuntu land?
<akgraner> Can you fill us in on how things are going with you all..
<highvoltage> First off, thanks for doing this review!
<highvoltage> In Edubuntu, we purposely try to keep the Council itself just that
<highvoltage> and keep the part where we actually do things as a team in edubuntu-dev
<highvoltage> but as it happens, edubuntu-dev and edubuntu-council are pretty much the same at this point
 * alkisg is an LTS guy so he can't comment much about the last few months, but I can comment about 10.04 in Greek schools - it's a big success, we deployed it to 120.000 laptops and to 250 schools so far
<dholbach> alkisg, WOW
<czajkowski> impressive
<akgraner> nice!
<alkisg> Half of them are in this map: http://goo.gl/maps/nOoQ
<YokoZar> That IS impressive
<highvoltage> I guess on a project level our most exciting thing is our colaboration with Debian-Edu
<highvoltage> in some of their deployments they want to use Ubuntu/Edubuntu Desktop with Debian-Edu servers
<Gwaihir> that is amazing
<highvoltage> so we're investigating what we can do to get their scripts packaged in Ubuntu.
<akgraner> That's great!
<highvoltage> I'm visiting a school on Saturday that's been running Ubuntu for 6 years now, I'm going to do an interview with them and hopefully it will be the first of a series of school interviews
<highvoltage> but that's not really EC specific :)
<dholbach> highvoltage, I could imagine that the collaboration on a package level is working out well - are there points where the goals in Debian-Edu and Edubuntu are different?
<highvoltage> I guess if we talk just about EC-specific stuff then our scope is rather small
<highvoltage> dholbach: currently debian-edu provides a complete solution, server and client side. we just do client-side atm. the server stuff is a lot of work that we don't have the manpower to take on at the moment
<YokoZar> alkisg: highvoltage: what would you say is the primary motivater decision-makers have for putting ubuntu in schools?
<highvoltage> getting new contributors for Edubuntu seems hard, people just don't find it all that interesting
<highvoltage> YokoZar: it's different from area to area and also budgets, in the more affluent schools you find that they want it because some of their needs are completely met with just having a web browser and openoffice.org.
<highvoltage> YokoZar: in other cases, people don't really care and just want something cheap
<alkisg> It's hard to summarize the Ubuntu or FLOSS benefits in general in a few words... cost, ease of installation and maintainance, freedom of changing + redistributing the software... bits are missing, of course, but the whole community is working on making the experience better
<dholbach> highvoltage, are schools getting in touch with the Edubuntu team much? are there people in the schools themselves who might start contributing?
<highvoltage> YokoZar: and then there are those who want to spend less time on fixing malware related problems
<highvoltage> dholbach: for a long time we had very, very little feedback from anyone
<highvoltage> dholbach: then stgraber added the webform on http://edubuntu.org/contact
<YokoZar> alkisg: For sure, the benefits are many, I'm just looking for a more coherent lesson to help guide the ubuntu-elevator-pitch
<sabdfl> perhaps if we highlighted some of your projects, it would help to attract folk who want to work on stuff that's noticed
<highvoltage> dholbach: and suddenly we are getting around 10 e-mails a week from Edubuntu users
<pleia2> wow, nice :)
<dholbach> highvoltage, nice
<pleia2> highvoltage: where do these emails go? a mailing list or published anywhere?
<highvoltage> dholbach: some of them have really great ideas that I've tried to get them to post to edubuntu-users about, but they rarely do
<highvoltage> pleia2: no, unfortunately, that's why I want to get those interview going, it would be awesome to get it out in the open what some people are doing
<pleia2> (mostly I'm just curious, not questioning policy or anything :))
<highvoltage> sabdfl: indeed
<akgraner> This great work! highvoltage, alkisg stgraber are there any questions you have for the CC - anything you need from us specifically at this point in time?
<dholbach> highvoltage, maybe you should reply with something like "Would you mind if I share your suggestion with our users/developers?" and CC them, if they're OK with doing that ;-)
<akgraner> This *is* great work (I meant to type)
<highvoltage> sabdfl: earlier (I'm not sure if you were in the channel yet) I was talking about an interview I'm having with a school in Cape Town that's been running Ubuntu for 6 years now (I'm planning to get some nice video too), and I hope that that's the first in a line of them
<highvoltage> akgraner: I've submitted our list of nominations to the CC for the EC elections, I guess that's pretty much it
 * YokoZar wonders if sabdfl is already familiar with that particular school...
<dholbach> this really is excellent work
<alkisg> If we were to have some dev support, I think the first need would be easy user + shared home management, maybe something like freeipa, that would make it easier for schools that don't have sysadmins. Other than that we have an LTS release ahead so we mostly focus on stability now :)
<highvoltage> we were planning to extend our term to 2 years after the first year
<highvoltage> I'm not sure if we need to formally do that in a CC meeting or if we could just update the wiki to reflect that
<highvoltage> the CEO of the company I work for said he'd round up the schools that we work with in Canada / US as well and let us interview them
<YokoZar> highvoltage: You mean you want the newly elected council members to serve 2 year terms and the next election would be during the next LTS cycle?
<highvoltage> so I hope that getting the word out will also help is get more Edubuntu contributors, so that maybe next time we won't have the same old people nominated for the EC (not that there's anything wrong with them, they're great)
<highvoltage> YokoZar: that's what was discussed a year ago, yes
<highvoltage> and news just in:
<highvoltage> 12:11 < skaet> stgraber, highvoltage - edubuntu alpha 1 is released.
<czajkowski> great stuff
<dholbach> you mentioned that there was little to do for the Edubuntu Council up until now? what did EC work involve? did you approve edubuntu members?
<highvoltage> sorry for all the blabbering :)
<highvoltage> dholbach: indeed, we've had very few applications though (I think it's been 2 over the last year (or was that 2 years))
<dholbach> highvoltage, thanks a lot for blabbering - it's great to get an insight into what's been going on
<akgraner> sounds like a plan are there any other questions of items of interest in relation to Edubuntu that needs to be address (Congrats on Alpha 1)
<YokoZar> My preference for elections is indeed two year terms and conducted during the LTS cycle when possible, that cadence seems to match up with other processes quite well
<highvoltage> it's an area we really want to improve on, but it's sometimes hard, especially since our interests are broad and are already stretched quite thin
<highvoltage> YokoZar: ok, great
<highvoltage> WebLive has also been quite successful. That's stgraber's pet project
<highvoltage> we've had more than 100000 people log in to try Edubuntu via their web browser so far
<highvoltage> (we actually hit 100k during UDS last month, so it's even higher now)
<highvoltage> For a bit longer term, perhaps 12.10, we might want to apply for some printed Edubuntu discs too for locos.
<highvoltage> distribution is hard, since we don't have printed CD's at the moment
<czajkowski> nods
<dholbach> so approving members was an EC task, was there anything else the EC had to deal with specifically?
<czajkowski> that might be a wiser choise then the Server cd that's sent imo
<highvoltage> we've made it slightly easier for 3rd party providers to have themselves known by adding them to http://edubuntu.org/marketplace
<highvoltage> it helps a little, but it would be nice to give a little more to locos.
<czajkowski> nods makes sense
<czajkowski> highvoltage: have you tried to reach out to locoteams?
<highvoltage> dholbach: technically if edubuntu-dev is in deadlock the issue would be escelated to edubuntu-council
 * YokoZar wonders if printed LTS edubuntu CDs would be more useful to distribute during later cycles
<highvoltage> dholbach: but since we're the same people currently and since we usually pretty much agree, that hasn't happened yet
<dholbach> ok, I see
<YokoZar> how many of you work for the same company?
<dholbach> highvoltage, I'll put the 5 of you on my list to interview for the weekly dev update :)
<highvoltage> czajkowski: yep, we have. in some places we've had some success, some locos even run translated versions of the edubuntu website
<highvoltage> czajkowski: at one stage we had an edubuntu loco project, but it became cumborsome to maintain seperately and it merged with the ubuntu loco teams
<akgraner> dholbach, you want that as an action item?
<dholbach> akgraner, I added it to my TODO list already :)
<akgraner> k
<czajkowski> highvoltage: ok. thanks
<highvoltage> YokoZar: myself and mgariepy work for the same company. stgraber used to work for us but he got snagged by Canonical
<highvoltage> YokoZar: alkisg is a teacher from Greece and sbalneav works for a legal company that uses LTSP in Canada.
<highvoltage> so yes, I guess this was more of an Edubuntu update than an Edubuntu Council update, but we don't really have any complaints from our side
<sabdfl> useful nonetheless
<sabdfl> with some impressive, understated achievements
<sabdfl> well done
<highvoltage> thanks, I'll be sure to pass that on to the edubuntu-devel list :)
<alkisg> Thanks, and thanks for Ubuntu itself again. :)
<sabdfl> also, worth noting that you folk carry the ubuntu values very strongly, which is appreciated
<czajkowski> highvoltage: thank you for the detailed information it's been really interesting to learn about what edbuntu is doing
<akgraner> highvoltage, thank you!
<akgraner> moving on them unless anyone has anything else?
<dholbach> yes, this work is absolutely great - thanks a lot :)
<akgraner> Since it looks like the agenda only has the fixed items - lets look at open discussion for a few minutes...
<akgraner> #open Discussion - anything new from anyone?
<akgraner> #topic open discussion - anything new?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: open discussion - anything new?
<YokoZar> Small note: still no response to my RT ticket ~ mailing list activity that I filed around UDS
<sabdfl> ticket number?
<dholbach> I can't quite remember what we decided in terms of the Planet Ubuntu update (old feeds)
<YokoZar> sabdfl: 18745
<AlanBell> dholbach: I emailed a spreadsheet of possible old feeds
<AlanBell> I need help tying them to people
<sabdfl> AlanBell, did that get blogged?
<AlanBell> not to my knowledge
<Gwaihir> dholbach, I prepared a stub to be published on the fridge, but never got published
<dholbach> AlanBell, alright, I'll have a look at my inbox again and see what we can do about it
<AlanBell> thanks dholbach
<akgraner> So do we need to review AlanBell's list  - and send out a notice to the planet then?
<pleia2> reviewing the list is on my todo list, sorry for not getting to it yet
<Gwaihir> akgraner, basically, yes
<AlanBell> yes, there are a heap of feeds and nicks that I don't recognise, they *could* be members
<dholbach> thanks AlanBell for your work on this
<AlanBell> I will do a commit to the planet conf file to correct a bunch of people I know to their actual launchpad names
<Gwaihir> pleia2, I might help with the review of the list, unfortunately, not before next week...
<akgraner> AlanBell, thanks!
<pleia2> Gwaihir: great, thanks :) there is no rush
<akgraner> pleia2, let me know if I can help  - but after Monday please...
<Gwaihir> pleia2, ok
<pleia2> Gwaihir: do you have an account on fridge? Or you can just email me your draft
<Gwaihir> pleia2, no account, I can email the draft, np
<pleia2> great
<dholbach> also on the topic of Planet Ubuntu, dpm asked if we were OK to add the Translators Portal and App Dev Portal
<dholbach> maybe we can decide this now and I reply to his mail afterwards?
<pleia2> as long as an ubuntu member sponsors them I'm happy with those additions
<czajkowski> yup I've no issues with that
<Gwaihir> dholbach, I gave my +1 via email, I confirm it here
<akgraner> I think it's fine
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<YokoZar> pleia2: +1
<akgraner> +1 from me
<beuno> +1
<czajkowski> and as pleia2 says as long as an Ubuntu member sponsors it
 * Gwaihir nods
<dholbach> ok, I'll mail him to go ahead
<dholbach> thanks
<akgraner> anything else not on the agenda we need to look at here?
<akgraner> ok if there is nothing else then we need to move to the final fixed agenda items
<akgraner> #topic - decide who will...
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: - decide who will...
<akgraner> update CommunityCouncil/TeamReports updated.,
<akgraner> update the next meeting time on the wiki,
<akgraner> chair the next meeting,,
<akgraner> reference meeting log at MeetingLogs/CC.
<akgraner> I would like to put forth the idea that  whoever chairs handles the updates
<pleia2> I usually do all that, so I can if you want
<pleia2> or that :)
<czajkowski> heh
<akgraner> this way we all take turns doing it
<czajkowski> sounds fair
<dholbach> thanks a lot pleia2
<YokoZar> or pleia2 chairs forever ;)
<akgraner> plars, you rock!
<akgraner> pleia2, even
<ogra_> plars rocks too though :)
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the additions
<YokoZar> Regardless: thanks pleia2, and I agree that having a system where we know who will do it each time is correct
<ogra_> (not as much as pleia2 i admit :) )
<Gwaihir> sounds fair to me too
<plars> heh
<akgraner> so if that's the case I can handle the updates for today - and we just need to decide who will chair the next meeting on the 15th
<pleia2> thanks akgraner :)
<czajkowski> I can
<YokoZar> alphabetical by IRC nick :D
<akgraner> #action czajkowski to chair the December 15th, 2011 17:00UTC CC Meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to chair the December 15th, 2011 17:00UTC CC Meeting
<dholbach> thanks czajkowski
<czajkowski> np
<Gwaihir> thanks czajkowski
<akgraner> thanks czajkowski!
<czajkowski> YokoZar: just for that mister..
<YokoZar> nevermind I forgot beueno comes before czajkowski in the alphabet :D
 * akgraner changes my IRC nick then
<akgraner> ok anything else folks?
 * dholbach is all set
<beuno> YokoZar, but I chaired last time, so it works out!
<czajkowski> nope
<akgraner> alrighty then thanks everyone!
<akgraner> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  1 17:42:16 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-01-17.00.moin.txt
 * ogra_ waves to zakgraner :)
<sabdfl> thanks and well done edubuntu
<sabdfl> cheers all
<beuno> o/
<Gwaihir> thanks all!
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<YokoZar> cheers!
<MrChrisDruif> Ubuntu News?
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-02
<`-`> #ubuntu ops are nazi fags. please remember to use your brain not that other bit of the anatomy the #ubuntu team appears to think is best.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-03
<amithkk> any body here?
<amithkk> I have a request :)
<amithkk> nvm
<wabi> hi, can someone please point me to a channel, that is regarded to keyboard issues ?
<valorie> wabi, this channel is just for meetings
<valorie> for support, use #ubuntu
<valorie> or variant, such as #kubuntu
<wabi> ok, thank you on response, valorie.. going to try this :)
<valorie> :-)
<wabi> oh..
<wabi> Kann #ubuntu  nicht betreten (Du bist gebannt).
<wabi> cant enter #ubuntu (you are banned)
<valorie> I guess I would go to #ubuntu-ops and see what that's about
<valorie> let me check if that is the right channel
<wabi> ok
<valorie> yes, that's right
<wabi> whatst it about ?
<valorie> that's where the channel operators hang out, and they can tell you why you are banned, and what to do about it
<valorie> I'm not an op, and so I couldn't begin to tell you
<wabi> mhh.. okay.. so lets , see. if can join ops channel :)
<wabi> seems to work :)
<wabi> i am going  to "bug" around there, why a simple question cant be answered :) thank you for help out, valorie
<valorie> yw
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-04
<amithandroid> Hey all :)
<amithandroid> When is the next meeing
<amithandroid> meetingology ?
<meetingology> amithandroid: Error: "?" is not a valid command.
<elky> amithandroid, you're better off looking at the calendar
<amithandroid> I cant use the browser :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-26
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> Hello
<sarnold> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 26 18:04:33 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week. thanks mdeslaur for covering for my at the end of last week
<mdeslaur> np, yw
<jdstrand> I have a lynx-cur update I hope to push out this week and an embargoed issue
<jdstrand> I also should be finishing my secure boot db/dbx updates package and work items for secure boot this week
<jdstrand> I have patch piloting duties as well
<jdstrand> there are also some MIR audits to attend to. I'll probably pull in sarnold to help with some of those as well
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently publishing libssh updates
<mdeslaur> and will continue going down the never-ending CVE list
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<jdstrand> we're like the postoffice
<mdeslaur> yes, hopefully with less automatic weapons
<jdstrand> that said, we are in really good shape lately
<sbeattie> I'm once again an apparmor monkey boy this week
<jdstrand> better than we've been in a long time
<sbeattie> heh
<sbeattie> I'm still working on getting the prototype display manager patch into a state where we can start to play with it, and see what mediation abstractions fall out of it.
<sbeattie> I'm also still trying to review jjohansen's patch bombs as well as clear out other miscellaneous apparmor stuff.
<sbeattie> that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: you're up.
<micahg> trying to drive the webkit stable update to completion and trying to get some fresh chromium updates as well
<micahg> will also be keeping an eye out for mozilla point releases if they come along
<micahg> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm wrapping up my work for the ecryptfs-utils SRU this morning
<tyhicks> Then I'll be looking at the dbus patches for apparmor to determine why I'm not able to mediate messages
<tyhicks> Then, I'll be working more on the dbus prototype
<tyhicks> That's it
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I will be fixing a couple known bugs in last weeks apparmor patch bomb, and finishing up the changes to the base labeling patches so I can drop another patch bomb this week
<jjohansen> I think that is it from /me sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm still working on the perl updates; the old packaging system and I didn't get along very well, but I think we've come to an understanding.
<sarnold> I've written tests for three of the CVEs in qrt; I want to take another look at them today and make sure they look reasonable before pushing
<mdeslaur> sarnold: have you agreed to disagree?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: yes.
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sarnold> mdeslaur: and we're hoping that hardy and lucid go EOL before another perl update. :)
<mdeslaur> hehe :)
<sarnold> .. but since that never quite happens, I'll try to write up some notes on what I found, so the next time I need it, they'll be there.
<sarnold> I've also got to take a closer look at some qemu patches hallyn asked for our review of...
<sarnold> .. and doko asked us to investigate some issues, I'll find out their status
<sarnold> s/issues/gcc issues/
<mdeslaur> sarnold: ok, you can put your notes in $qrt/build_testing
<sarnold> mdeslaur: hrm, I thought there was a different path for the patching-and-building notes...
<jdstrand> (or notes_testing/ - the distinction has grown extremely blurry-- we might consider merging them)
<mdeslaur> yeah, I'm always confused which is which
<jdstrand> traditionally build_testing/ has been notes on how to get you results/
<jdstrand> whereas notes_testing/ is the catch-all. I've probably not followed that myself-- it is a very fine hair
<sarnold> uhoh, we lost the meeting bot.
<jdstrand> anyhoo
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, jdstrand?
<jdstrand> sarnold: did you have anything else to report?
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mahara.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/osc.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsmi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/icecast2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/wv2.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<micahg> jdstrand: thanks
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<pitti> hello
<pitti> cjwatson, kees, soren, stgraber, mdz: TB meeting?
<cjwatson> Here
<cjwatson> We had an empty agenda when I looked earlier today, though
<pitti> yeah, the only thing that catches my eye is the brainstorm review
<pitti> nothing techboard-ish in my mailbox apparently
 * stgraber waves
<pitti> so for the brainstorm review, do you guys have some opinion whether we should continue this?
<pitti> from the last cycles that we actually did do, I found it moderately helpful
<mdz> pitti, hi
<cjwatson> Well, I still think it's a good thing for us to do, but it's beginning to seem like a lost cause
<pitti> but it seems to help less and less, with design being more institutionalized
<mdz> I (still) think it is better to discontinue it explicitly than to allow it to be in limbo like this
<pitti> I volunteer for doing this round, if we want to try another one
<pitti> I think the last one was kind of started, but then just silently died
<cjwatson> Mm, I found the non-design bits of the review I did more productive than the design bits
<pitti> right, the part that I found useful was the reality check
<pitti> in my last round I found that the majority of cases that users voted up were actually being handled already, but there were some gems which warranted a closer look
<pitti> so, unless you guys have a strong opinion to close the lid on that one (doesn't seem so), I'll just have a go at it?
 * soren wanders in
<cjwatson> I don't see why you shouldn't have a go at it if you're keen
<pitti> ok, I'll add it as an action item them
<cjwatson> But on the principle of setting achievable targets, it doesn't seem that it's a sensible thing for the TB to set itself, given that we generally seem to fail at it
<soren> pitti: I found it extremely difficult to figure out who I should assign each of the items to. Perhaps you, being more in touch with things than I, will do a better job.
<pitti> soren: I was mostly asking appropriate people and TLs on IRC back then
<soren> That's the thing. I hardly even know who the TLs and "appropriate people" are these days.
<pitti> of course I know the desktop guys, but e. g. for server and kernel I asked Daviey and ogasawara about "who would be suitable to have a look at this"
<cjwatson> Is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams not up to date?
<pitti> right, so maybe I'll have more luck; still depends on people actually responding
<soren> cjwatson: Gosh. I didn't even know about that page :(
<cjwatson> It's the third link in the body text off the front page :)
<cjwatson> Mind you OMG horrible colours
<cjwatson> (Can anyone actually read the contents of the "Team Name" column?)
<pitti> the shape looks quite LCARish, just wrong colors
<pitti> yeah, I can read it well, but it doesn't look that good
<soren> cjwatson: Yeah, it's not too bad for me.
<soren> cjwatson: Could be better for sure, but it's readable.
<cjwatson> pitti: LCAR> I had to look that up :)
<pitti> anyway, there are 0 community bugs and (from what I can see) zero pending ML issues, so that's it?
<pitti> cjwatson: LCARS, sorry
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda updated for next meeting and that action item
<pitti> cjwatson, soren, mdz, stgraber: anything else from you?
<cjwatson> I have nothing else
<soren> Nope.
<pitti> then good night everyone!
<stgraber> nope
<soren> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-27
<dontknow> hi, i banned from #ubuntu channel, who can i discuss with?
<roaksoax> alright it is time for our meeting it seems
<roaksoax> jamespage:
<roaksoax> zul:
<roaksoax> smoser:
<roaksoax> Daviey:
<roaksoax> howdy
<zul> yo
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> hey roaksoax!
<zul> time changes still messing me up
<roaksoax> yeah me too :)
<roaksoax> shall we get started or wait couple more mins
<smoser> o/
<smb> \o
<jamespage> nah - crack on
<roaksoax> alright, let's get started
<roaksoax> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<Daviey> roaksoax: I have a clashing call now.. I'll only vulgarly be here
<smoser> roaksoax, ^
<Daviey> er, vaguely
<roaksoax> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> you around ? we shoudl be starting team meeting, and you're on the list. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<roaksoax> uhmm the bot doesn't seem to be working
<Daviey> AlanBell: ^^
<roaksoax> #startmeeting
<roaksoax> alright, bot seems down
<roaksoax> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> Daviey: to fix the release bugs report -- any updates?
<roaksoax> colliding meeting, let's get back to this
<roaksoax> everyone look through http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<roaksoax> so has anyone looked at ^^?
<jamespage> every day :-)
<roaksoax> alright, any outstanding things we might be interested it?
<roaksoax> i guess not, the list seems quite good
<jamespage> there are alot of bugs in flight for the maas stablization release
<jamespage> other than that not to many bugs ATM
<jamespage> (targetted to raring at least)
<roaksoax> indeed. most of them are fixed. just waiting SRU for the dependencies
<jamespage> ack
<roaksoax> ok, so moving on
<roaksoax> apw, smb and Daviey to talk about a dependency break for xen-hypervisor-4.1-<arch> for some nova packages
<roaksoax> apw: ^^
<roaksoax> smb: ^^
<roaksoax> any updateS?
<smb> roaksoax, We did
<smb> And with zul
<zul> roaksoax: fixed
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> let's move on then
<roaksoax> #topic Raring Development
<roaksoax> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<roaksoax> Release Bugs - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<roaksoax> as#subtopic Release Bugs
<roaksoax> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<roaksoax> jamespage: as you already mention, most bugs are related to MAAS
<roaksoax> so lets move on
<roaksoax> #subtopic Blueprints
<roaksoax> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ubuntu-server.html
<roaksoax> how's the status of your BP's?
<roaksoax> any blockers?
<rbasak> The dep8 autopkg stuff
<rbasak> How are people testing their tests, OOI?
<rbasak> I was hoping for lxc support or something like that, but it looks like that has yet to be written
<roaksoax> alright!
<roaksoax> zul: any update son: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-grizzly
<zul> its going swimmingl
<zul> swimmingly even
<rbasak> (I was talking about https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-seeded-qa-workflow)
<SpamapS> o/
<jamespage> rbasak, I've been working in cloud instances...
<rbasak> jamespage: that's what I was trying to do! I'll sync with you later on the details then
<jamespage> rbasak, sure
<roaksoax> ok
<roaksoax> i see most of the BP's are still in TODO, i guess this is because we are early in the cycle
<roaksoax> so lets move on
<roaksoax> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> yes - Daviey, smoser and I still need to review/approve the final few
<jamespage> that are not yet approved...
<roaksoax> jamespage: yeah :)
<roaksoax> alright, so moving on, any server team events coming soon?
<SpamapS> AWS re:Invent going on right now
<SpamapS> smoser, utlemming, m_3, and jcastro in attendance
<jamespage> \o/
<roaksoax> \o/
<roaksoax> i guess there're no more events coming soon then
<roaksoax> moving on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<roaksoax> hggdh: any updates?
<hggdh> only thing is how we are going to deal with Precise and two kernels
<jamespage> hggdh, with difficulty
<hggdh> we are trying to figure it out, so suggestions are very welcome
<jamespage> hggdh, I think what exactly is happening with regards to the new kernel and precise is still being agreed
<jamespage> precise *server* that is
<hggdh> jamespage: ack, and good. And yes, here I am talking about server ;-)
<hggdh> ..
<roaksoax> alright, so givng that's still on discussion, let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I keep it short this week. Nothing, I believe, noteworthy to mention.
<smb> ..
<roaksoax> alright
 * jamespage parks his qa item for later then
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<roaksoax> rbasak: howdy! any updates?
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<smoser> smb, so... quantal kernel on isos for precise?
<smoser> gah.
<smb> smoser, Too late. :) But yes, I think that was the roling kernel plan for the point releases
<SpamapS> but I thought that plan was shot down
<Daviey> smb: Well, generally.. there is concern.. And we might push for it to be reverted for our flavour.
<Daviey> However, this is still undergoing discussion, so we should leave it for now
<Daviey> SpamapS: Funny that, so did I. :)
<jamespage> and me
<smb> Oh well
<roaksoax> jamespage: sorry about that, lets get back to you :)
<jamespage> OK - https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/Smoke%20Testing/
<jamespage> the QA team have been automating the UTAH based tests for server from last release for raring
<roaksoax> alright
<jamespage> lp:~ubuntu-server-dev/utah/server-tests-quantal has the current set of tests; I'll branch that for raring shortly
<roaksoax> awesome! so there's a good progress there then
<roaksoax> if there's nothing else to bring up, let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Open Discussion
<roaksoax> anyone wants to share anything with us?
<roaksoax> zul: any new where's chuck pics?
<roaksoax> :)
<roaksoax> alright, I guess no one has something to share with us this week
<roaksoax> so let's get this over with
<roaksoax> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
<roaksoax> same time/place
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
<roaksoax> thank you all for attending
<roaksoax> thank you bot for not working :)
<roaksoax> ya'll free
<jamespage> thanks roaksoax
<Daviey> thanks roaksoax
<roaksoax> \o/
<hggdh> plars: the armada booted! I have a login prompt!!
<hggdh> plars: now, just WTF did it boot on raring, if I installed quantal? At least I thought I was installing Quantal...
<smb> \o
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<herton> \o
<ogasawara> o/
<henrix> o/
<sforshee> o/
<rtg> o/
<arges> o/
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-13.04-month-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 12 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-delta-review        ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                ||  3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || foundations-r-secure-boot             ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-r-kernel-delta-review        ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || foundations-r-secure-boot             ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the raring kernel to upstream v3.7-rc7.  We
<ogasawara> plan to upload today.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Tues Dec 18 - 13.04 Month 2 Milestone - (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 28 CVEs on our radar, with 0 CVE added and 2 CVE retired since last meeting.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (November 27):
<henrix>  * Hardy - In Testing; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Testing; 1 CVEs; (2 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Testing; 2 CVEs; 6 upstream stable release(s); (200 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Testing; 2 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (253 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Testing; 2 CVEs; (11 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
<bootinfdsds> cant wait for Ubuntu TV meetng on 30th nov at 6pm utc !!!
* IdleOne changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-28
 * stgraber waves
<jodh> o/
 * slangasek waves
<xnox> \0
 * ogra_ shores
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
 * slangasek pokes the bot
<ogra_> i think its dead since a few days already
<slangasek> boo, ok
<xnox> slangasek: the bot is on well-deserved holiday =)
<slangasek> stupid Robot Equality Act
<ogra_> went together with the piloting bot from #ubuntu-devel
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko barry xnox ogra ev stgraber slangasek stokachu cjwatson jodh infinity bdmurray
<slangasek> doko: you're up first :)
<slangasek> stokachu says he won't make today's meeting btw
 * xnox thinks they are simply running around the pool of selenium in circles
<slangasek> tick tock
<ogra_> i heard they have a cabin in the mountains, meeting bot wanted that because of all the waves at the sea reminding him of work
<slangasek> barry: why don't you go ahead, we'll grab doko later
<barry> oauthlib issue 68 (ValueError in escape()). bug #1077076 (in progress). bug #1061149 (*lots* of additional debugging/data gathering w/ more to come). tox packaging for debian (cleared debian new!). piston-mini-client (py3, oauthlib, packaging - uploaded). review, merge, sponsor: ~mitya57/ubuntu/raring/python-defaults/resync (python-defaults 2.7.3-3ubuntu1). done.
<barry> yay, no bot
<barry> 1077076 is oneconf for py3 and oauthlib
<barry> 1061149 is boot freezes
<cjwatson> tox didn't build anywhere in raring-proposed
<cjwatson> yi
<cjwatson> fyi
<barry> cjwatson: yeah, i just noticed that.
<xnox> * assist jamespage with maintainer scripts for bug 1079897
<xnox> * fix cmake fallout (causes unity to FTBFS) bug 1080713
<xnox> * geoname-loop is deployed! bug 837064 / rt 55554 is fix released
<xnox> * patch pilot tuesday
<xnox> * upload ubiquity with many bugfixes
<xnox> * ubiquity/compiz support done, pending upload (lp:~xnox/ubiquity/compiz)
<xnox> ..
<cjwatson> missing build-dep on python-pytest perhaps?
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * plenty of nexus7 image fixes. bug 1084063, bug 1071185 (and various ones that were just fixed on the go without report)
<ogra_>  * uploaded a cleaned up ubuntu-default-settings-nexus7
<ogra_>  * nexus raring images are close to usable, sadly bug 1065638 is still blocking us from having a proper desktop
<ogra_> todo:
<barry> cjwatson: it made it to unstable: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=python-tox&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all
<ogra_>  * meeting for discussing the remaining WIs of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-reduced-power-ram (carried over again)
<ogra_>  * flash-kernel fixes (carried over as well)
<ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bug/1084063
<ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7/+bug/1071185
<ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7/+bug/1065638
<ogra_> ..
<cjwatson> barry: Yes, but Architecture: all packages in Debian aren't necessarily built in clean environmenets
<ev> - Continued development of the retracer squid cache. We had to back this out
<ev>   because the retracing time shot through the roof and we suddenly had several
<ev>   thousand pending retraces, completely overwhelming the disks in the
<ev>   retracers. I think that's due to a bug, which I'm working on fixing while we
<ev>   get the queues back under control.
<ev> - Call with Ale and her team on the juju GUI, then a follow up brainstorming
<ev>   session in Blue Fin. Provided my own experiences and suggestions. Helped them
<ev>   better define the developer and webops personas.
<ev> - Implemented the prototype of Pig on Hadoop on Cassandra for the error tracker:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/MapReduce
<ev>   With this deployed to production, we'll be able to write map/reduce queries
<ev>   in Pig Latin that are ideally distributed over the Cassandra nodes and can
<ev>   run independent of a developer machine.
<ev>   
<ev>   So if Steve wants to know what is the average number of crashes reported by a
<ev>   machine during the first week that the machine is seen, he can without
<ev>   leaving his computer running for days and without greatly impacting the
<ev>   performace of the Cassandra cluster.
<ev>   
<ev>   We can make that impact very negligable in the future by moving this to a
<ev>   seperate Cassandra cluster that's replicated from the main cluster.
<ev> - Mail to Foundations on setting up the error tracker in Canonistack:
<ev>   https://lists.launchpad.net/private-platfound/msg00774.html
<ev> - Debugging the error tracker charms with Kapil. He tracked the issue down to
<ev>   our schema creation script, which I've fixed. You can now run `bzr branch
<ev>   lp:~ev/+junk/whoopsie-daisy-deployment; ./whoopsie-daisy-deployment/deploy`
<ev>   without any extra fiddling.
<ev> - Dumping my notebook into Launchpad Bugs in preparation for our sprint.
<ev> - Massive triage of Errors, Whoopsie, and Daisy bugs in preparation for the
<ev>   sprint.
<ev> - Firefighting with webops:
<ev>   https://wiki.canonical.com/InformationInfrastructure/WebOps/BrokenServiceEscalation/2012-11-28-UE-Retracers-Disk-Usage
<ev> (done)
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Upstart meeting, got a workitem list for the Session Init work
<stgraber>   - Some cleanup work on the upstart-dconf-bridge at: lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-dconf-bridge
<stgraber>   - Implemented the prctl call in: lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-prctl
<stgraber>   - Implemented use of initgroups in: ~stgraber/upstart/upstart-initgroups
<stgraber>   - Early implementation of the new DBUS signals in: ~stgraber/upstart/upstart-dbus-events
<stgraber>   - Now fighting with the tests for those.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Updated the upstream python code for the new pep8 warnings.
<stgraber>   - Added a new function to the API to pass a device (block or character) directly to a running container.
<stgraber>   - Introduced a new lxc-device tool using the new device passing code in the API.
<stgraber>   - Cleaned up arkose to be fully python3 compatible, PEP-8 clean, updated the testsuite and fixed a bunch of other bugs.
<stgraber>   - Reviewed a bunch of merge proposals and patches on the upstream mailing-list.
<stgraber>   - Found and fixed a UEFI related bug where mountall was attempting to mount efivars in the container but was blocked by apparmor, leading to unbootable containers.
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Looking at reducing the delta between Debian and Ubuntu for bridge-utils. Will add some code to detect upstart-udev-bridge and change the codepath accordingly.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Did some (unsuccesful) precise UEFI testing, need to do another batch later today to confirm the issue was fixed.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Continue on the upstart work (including bug 1058029)
<stgraber>   - Test precise under UEFI secureboot
<stgraber>   - Port arkose to python3-lxc
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> "dumping my notebook into Launchpad bugs" - that's a very matrix-esque visual image
<slangasek> stgraber: I haven't seen merge proposals come in for those upstart branches?
<xnox> stgraber: lxc-device - does this mean i can run full ubiquity install from one fake disk onto another all inside lxc-container?
<ev> :)
<stgraber> xnox: possibly
<slangasek> stgraber: what was the efivars fix?  change to the container config?
<xnox> stgraber: sounds like a challenge =)
<ev> I should note that the Hadoop deployment is blocked on us providing some long term resolution to the problems webops are seeing with the retracers
<stgraber> slangasek: for the upstart branches, I want to get some tests added before I send a merge proposal
<slangasek> stgraber: ack
 * ogra_ totally fogot to mention that he installed steam on the weekend ... sadly its broken *sniff*
<slangasek>  * short week, Thanksgiving vacation
<slangasek>  * working through details of our Secure Boot revocation process; discussing whether we need separate prod vs. pre-release signing keys, so a revocation event doesn't have to invalidate our released boot media
<slangasek>  * upstart 1.6 is in Debian unstable, blogged, etc.  Still need to fix an intermittent build failure on amd64, somehow nih isn't picking up job files in subdirs, probably a kernel bug to work around
<slangasek>  * missed my patch pilot shift this week, will make it up today
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: for efivars, yeah, the current fix is to allow lxc to mount it but prevent access to it with apparmor. The proper fix would be to change mountall to make the mount failure non-fatal
<slangasek> stgraber: hmm, I don't see why we want mounting of efivars to be treated any differently than mounting of /sys or any of the other virtual filesystems
<slangasek> except that it's "optional" and failure to mount due to lack of /support/ is ignored
<slangasek> cjwatson: your turn
<stgraber> slangasek: well, I'm not sure that mountall not emitting virtual-filesystems if one of the filesystem fails to mount is really a good "feature" as it's essentially preventing your system from booting, maybe mount failures should be considered as if the fs wasn't supported?
<cjwatson> oh yes, sorry
<cjwatson> Finished initial batch of UEFI Secure Boot backports to precise.
<cjwatson> Some easy cross-building fixes.
<cjwatson> Backported fix for bug 1001189 to precise.
<cjwatson> Finally got round to sponsoring stokachu's appmenu-gtk multiarch work (though still awaiting SRU review - anyone?).
<cjwatson> Merged Upstart support into Debian experimental's openssh, and synced it.
<cjwatson> Lots and lots and lots of merges.
<cjwatson> Fixed broken libnewt.so symlink in libnewt-dev, which broke the cdebconf build on amd64/armhf.
<cjwatson> Hacking on germinate in support of work to get signed kernels into 12.04 images (don't ask).  Actually, I think I may have to change Launchpad ...
<cjwatson> ..
<jodh> * Misc:
<jodh>   - Holiday-ette yesterday.
<jodh> * Project:
<jodh>   - Patch-piloting Monday.
<jodh> * Upstart:
<jodh>   - Applied fix for 2 bugs found by cking.
<jodh>   - Reviewed and applied lp:~vorlon/upstart/fix-environ-order-assumption.
<stgraber> slangasek: (sadly there's no magic we can use to have apparmor somehow show a restricted list a filesystem to the contained application, so we can't hide things from /proc/filesystems ...)
<jodh>   - bug 1083723 ("'telinit u' has a cage fight with busybox init"): Created a fix. Needs testing.
<jodh>   - bug 1079715 ("'telinit u' run from within a chroot causes a crash"): Working on additional tests.
<jodh>   - Enhanced User Sessions: Lots of updates to spec
<jodh>     (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions)
<slangasek> stgraber: the knock-on effects of having the filesystem not mounted are impossible to determine.  Consider what the boot would be like if the filesystem that failed to mount was /proc
<jodh>     and discussions with stgraber and xnox.
<jodh>   - Upstart Cookbook updates:
<jodh>     http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~upstart-documenters/upstart-cookbook/trunk/changes/
<jodh> TODO:
<jodh>   - Finish bugs.
<jodh>   - Upstart Raring upload.
<jodh>   - Get spec updated for PAM stuff.
<jodh>   - Review stgrabers 2 upstart branches.
<jodh>   - Get onto RaringUpstartUserSessions!!
<jodh>   - Nominate bug 1083723 for "Most Amusing Bug Title 2012" award.
<slangasek> stgraber: the difference between /proc and efivars is quantitative, not qualitative, AFAICS
<jodh> â
<jodh>  
<slangasek> cjwatson: doing the appmenu-gtk SRU review this morning
<stgraber> slangasek: right, question is whether it'd be any worse than what we get currently :) I "think" I'd prefer my system to stil try booting without /proc as unlikely as it's to work, than hang "for sure" in mountall :)
<slangasek> stgraber: I think you're taking a container-centric view here; I don't think you'd really want a host system to boot up without /proc
<cjwatson> slangasek: ta
<slangasek> so I think the right answer is to make the container more like a real system, not to make mountall special-case containers
<xnox> slangasek: cjwatson: is there any list of fails to cross-build & essential package for bootstrap? and/or a quick how to test clean cross-building?
<cjwatson> xnox: publishing such a list is on my to-do
<cjwatson> there's stuff on the linaro wiki about how to set it up locally
<xnox> the mk-sbuild kind of has --host support, but it creates chroots with incorrect name =))))
<xnox> (sbuild will not find it)
<cjwatson> yeah, you can just rename that into place
<slangasek> jodh: is the fix for bug 1083723 published where we can look?
<cjwatson> I believe the creation docs are linked off foundations-r-aarch64
<cjwatson> or I'll be publishing my juju charms in a bit
<xnox> cjwatson: ok, I'll have another go at it.
<stgraber> slangasek: I'm not sure about that ;) I think I'd prefer a host system to still try to boot without /proc because having a 1% chance of getting a shell to do something about it is better than a 100% chance of being stuck and having to reboot.
<stgraber> slangasek: but maybe that's just me being weird
<jodh> slangasek: not yet. Will push after the meeting. Approach is to attempt to connect to Upstart via D-Bus and if that succeeds, send the signal, else it's a NOP.
<ogra_> stgraber, just make the kernel mount 7proc ... it does that with devtmpfs already :)
<ogra_> */proc
<slangasek> xnox: how should the chroots be named to make sbuild happy?  I don't think we want them named the same as a native chroot
<slangasek> bdmurray: no infinity, so your turn
<cjwatson> slangasek: they should in particular not be named after the build architecture :)
<bdmurray> updated SRU wiki page regarding time before removal
<bdmurray> called for testing of packages in -proposed in oneiric, lucid
<bdmurray> modified sru-report to show comments after verification still needed
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1076186
<bdmurray> updated sru verification opportunities in harvest to use json and appear for more releases
<bdmurray> investigation into apport-package missing duplicate signatures
<bdmurray> reported and fixed apport bug 1080915 regarding ubuntu general hook
<bdmurray> package to team mapping work for foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> setting up / testing the error tracker in juju
<bdmurray> and some holidays last week
<bdmurray> done
<cjwatson> slangasek: if you want them named distinct from native chroots you'll need to patch sbuild to support that; or you could just require people use -c raring-armhf-cross or whatever
<xnox> slangasek: currently with non-matching build/host sbuild will look for $distro-$hostarch or $distro-$hostarch-sbuild. The mk-sbuild with --host passed creates the chroot as $distro-$buildarch which clashes with native chroot.
<cjwatson> slangasek: personally I just call them raring-armhf; the probability of having both native and cross chroots for the same host architecture on the same system is sufficiently small that I don't care
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh bah, did I use the build arch by mistake?
<cjwatson> yes
<slangasek> ogra_: "have the kernel mount /proc" - not the problem at hand
<xnox> slangasek: ideally sbuild should learn about $distro-$hostarch-$buildarch in case of multiple cross chroot, but I don't think that's a "typical" user of this =)
<xnox> slangasek: cause we currently have native armhf with qemu-static chroots generated by mk-sbuild as e.g. raring-armhf
<cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1394818/ - the config-changed hook from my current charm
<cjwatson> somewhat workaround-heavy
<xnox> ack. i'll use --name for now =))))
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> doko: here yet?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: take it away :)
<bdmurray> When I was reviewing old SRUs I noticed some comments regarding lucid and bug 771372
<bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/procps/+bug/771372
<jodh> slangasek: lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1083723
<bdmurray> even though the lucid task is set to Fix Released
<slangasek> bdmurray: can you give a comment #?
<slangasek> is this #38?
<bdmurray> and 40 and 41
<jodh> bdmurray: the current solution is the best compromise we could find. See #4 (the full version).
<slangasek> ah
<bdmurray> jodh: okay, I'll have a look at that comment
<slangasek> bdmurray: so #40 would always have been racy and unreliable; the SRU change just turned this from a race into a sure thing
<bdmurray> then we have https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1070427
<bdmurray> Ubiquity removes kernel headers, fails to build nonfree drivers
<cjwatson> Nasty
<slangasek> cjwatson: pitti attributes it there to the behavior with signed kernels; too late to fix for quantal, but do you know if this affects the SB enablement backports?
<cjwatson> My instinct is also to attribute it to signed kernels, but we may not be correct there
<cjwatson> But I'll investigate that as a priority
 * slangasek wonders if it's practical to have an integration test for dkms drivers
<cjwatson> If it is something to do with that then we'll need to backport, yes
<slangasek> possibly one of the non-hardware-specific dkms drivers
<slangasek> cjwatson: assign to you for p+r?
<cjwatson> already done
<cjwatson> well, q+r; I'll create p tasks if necessary
<slangasek> oops, already did that :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything else?
<bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mountall/+bug/1075717
<bdmurray> mounted-dev must not re-create consoles in a container
<doko> sorry, slept in, getting a cold
 * slangasek denies that mountall has any bugs
<slangasek> doko: sorry to hear it
<xnox> slangasek: we deny your denial =)
<ogra_> could that be related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/960770 ? (there was a dep on the linux-headers packages in dkms before thats gone now)
<cjwatson> ogra_: ubiquity has explicit code to handle kernel headers
<ogra_> (the ubiquity removes headers thing)
<cjwatson> because package-level relationships are in general insufficient to handle it accurately
<ogra_> cjwatson, i know check-kernels, but i thought if there is a dep the headers would have kept in place
<cjwatson> *shrug* it's a bug anyway ...
<ogra_> indeed
<slangasek> bdmurray: fixing that mountall bug was backburned on my end because of $obscure_Debian_release_reason; I can take care of it now
<slangasek> (assigned)
<bdmurray> okay, that's all then
<slangasek> cool, thanks
<cjwatson> there's no way for dkms to say "use linux-headers-$FLAVOUR depending on the kernel flavour you're using"
<slangasek> doko: want to give us a status update?
<ogra_> cjwatson, nope, it had "Recommends: fakeroot, menu | sudo, linux-headers-generic-pae | linux-headers-686-pae | linux-headers-amd64 | linux-headers-generic | linux-headers, linux-image"
<doko> slangasek, I'll send it by email later
<cjwatson> ogra_: yeah, but that was always a ghastly broken hack anyway :)
<ogra_> doko, get well
<slangasek> doko:
<ogra_> yeah, definitely
<cjwatson> I don't really care if it's been removed
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> doko: "ok", I meant to say :)
<jodh> ev: can errors.u.c filter by team?
<bdmurray> jodh: not yet
 * xnox we have a few things growing on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<ogra_> were the trendlines on status.u.c already reset ?
<slangasek> ogra_: yes, they were
<ogra_> bah
<ogra_> doesnt take done items into account, feels like i didnt do any work yet
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> the done items are shown, above the line :)
<slangasek> but yeah, I think it's strange to truncate the graph instead of just resetting the line
<slangasek> (but not worth spending effort fixing
<slangasek> )
<ogra_> yeah, i see them, but my line would be so much steeper if they were below
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> (and i'm not serious)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> I think that's it :)
<slangasek> thanks, all
<ogra_> thanks !
<barry> thanks!
<xnox> cheers
<stgraber> thanks!
<jodh> thanks
<Bechir> hello everybody
<xnox> bug 1
<ubot93> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<xnox> at least bug bot will be present for the next meeting we will
<xnox> hold in this channel
<ogra-cb> great
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-29
<xnox> Laney: dholbach: micahg: bdrung: Hello, MOTU =)
 * xnox is not sure who else to ping =)
<dholbach> hello hello
<xnox> ScottK: welcome =)
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<ScottK> \o
<micahg> o/
<dholbach> Welcome to the MOTU meeting! :)
<ScottK> Hey, we actually remembered to have it.
<micahg> no bots still...
<xnox> #startmeeting weekly MOTU meeting
<xnox> [16:09] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep  6 16:09:16 2012 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<xnox> [16:09] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<micahg> ScottK: luckily the xnox bot is working :)
 * xnox giggles
<dholbach> wow, how did tumbleweed chair this?
<xnox> zorg =)
<dholbach> there must be a secret bar-to-bot connection
<ScottK> Apparently it involves beer.  He said he was going to the pub.
<dholbach> tumbleweed, here's your agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<xnox> let's start with something fresh
<dholbach> ok, I have no idea what's going - xnox: do you want to chair (with or without bot)?
<xnox> # topic Discuss contents of http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~harvest-dev/harvest-data/lintian-tags-data/files (dholbach)
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> so I wrote a script which gets us fresh opportunities from lintian into Harvest
<dholbach> it works, but it'd be good if we could define a number of tags we want fixed
<xnox> very-easy:
<xnox> no-homepage-field
<xnox> debhelper-but-no-misc-depends
<xnox> --
<xnox> seems fine & useful =)
<dholbach> yes, it's very empty - I just used it for example data - I'm happy for it to be overridden
<dholbach> what we still need is: https://bugs.launchpad.net/harvest/+bug/1081997
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081997 in harvest "Provide fake package set 'ubuntu-only'" [High,New]
<dholbach> which would help new contributors to spot stuff which can be integrated in Ubuntu directly
<xnox> dholbach: does it need to be a set? I thought udd/ubuntuwire already know about ubuntu only packages.
<dholbach> harvest doesn't know about any of these things
<dholbach> it will be a "fake" package set
<dholbach> Harvest will just believe there's a package set
<dholbach> because that's one of the few things it knows about :)
<ScottK> xnox: I think those really, really easy ones aren't things that are worth carrying a diff from Debian for.  Certainly for Ubuntu only packages though.
<dholbach> it already has a fake "unseeded" package set
<xnox> easy has: debian-rules-ignores-make-clean-error
<xnox> the rest of lintian tags are empty.
<xnox> ScottK: sure, but we should fix them in ubuntu-only packages.
<dholbach> as I said: what's in the branch is just example data and I'm happy for it to be overridden
<ScottK> Agreed.
<dholbach> and we should make our docs clear enough to explain this
<dholbach> http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/fixing-a-bug-example.html already explains how to figure out if something should go to Debian or not
<dholbach> but I can try to make it clearer on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative too
<dholbach> what I just need help with is updating http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~harvest-dev/harvest-data/lintian-tags-data/files because I feel it will be useful for both us and contributors
<dholbach> for bug 1081997 I'm working on a fix
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081997 in harvest "Provide fake package set 'ubuntu-only'" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081997
<xnox> sounds good.
<xnox> What I would like to see is lintian tags which are introduced in ubuntuX revisions and are not present in Debian.
<dholbach> xnox, can you elaborate?
<xnox> As the next level after / in-addition to fixing ubuntu-only packages.
<xnox> dholbach: for example package 1.0-1 is lintian clean, yet 1.0-1ubuntu1 has spelling mistakes.
<dholbach> sounds like a job for lintian.uw.org
<xnox> dholbach: while the package is not "ubuntu-only" the lintian bugs are not debian specific.
<ScottK> Also need to be careful of the differences betwen the Ubuntu and Debian lintian profiles.
<dholbach> what I'm looking for right now is some help from everyone - if we all spend 10 minutes on http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/quantal/tags-all.html and file an MP on http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~harvest-dev/harvest-data/lintian-tags-data/files that'd be great
<xnox> sure.
<ScottK> Stuff that's only flagged in the Ubuntu profile should not go to Debian.
<xnox> ScottK: that as well.
<xnox> #action everyone submit 2 (or more =) ) lintian tags into the harvest branch ^^^^
<dholbach> rock!
<xnox> ScottK: do we need to review our current ubuntu lintian profile?
 * xnox is not sure how well that is maintained.
<ScottK> possibly
 * ScottK neither
<dholbach> #action Daniel to work on #1081997 and update bugfixinginitiative wiki page.
<xnox> e.g. I don't know if it is possible, but some of the emitted tags do not apply any more since precise got released.
<micahg> I think bdrung was doing some work with that
<xnox> Looking at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lintian I don't see a few pet-peaves of mine. So I guess:
<xnox> #action xnox to file bugs about lintian ubuntu profile
 * tumbleweed waves from the pub
<xnox> Anything else? about lintian tags, harvest and lintian? =)
<dholbach> I'm all set.
 * xnox cheers tumbleweed 
<xnox> ..
<xnox> #topic Update NEW package workflow page, to reflect our current requirements (e.g. a bug subscriber)
<xnox> what's this? What new workflow? =)
 * xnox is not up to date.
<dholbach> me neither
<tumbleweed> we've been very discouraging of new packages
<xnox> Is that with respect to the dawn of ubuntuwire & ability to create new packages by pushing to lp:~/ubuntu/raring/newpackage/new
<xnox> ?
<xnox> not ubuntuwire, the REVU service on ubuntuwire.
<micahg> xnox: you shoudn't be able to do that...
<micahg> *shouldn't
<tumbleweed> we've been telling many people that we'll only sponsor their package if they promise to look after it for future (essentially, maintain it)
<tumbleweed> if that's actually a requirement we want to enforce, it should be documented
<xnox> micahg: it's currently possible and would be a massive fail if it wasn't possible to do that. Or does one need magic dev powers?
<ScottK> Yes.  We do new packages all the time, we just try to avoid drive bys.
<micahg> xnox: the namespace  under Ubuntu should be limited to source packages in teh archive I would think
 * xnox thought extras is the new drive-by target?
<ScottK> Extras is not part of Ubuntu.
 * micahg starts a list of bugs to file against LP
<tumbleweed> extras also isn't appropriate for some packages
<xnox> micahg: the fact that this feature exist, is beyond MOTU power, and you cannot create an lp:ubuntu/package, you can only create a "personal" branch whether that has any connection with the real archive package (with or without nameclash) is not important.
<micahg> xnox: it's a namespace issue...
<micahg> technically, it's not important, but it appears to be a bug IMHO
<xnox> micahg: sure. well regardless of the naming one can use junk branches to submit new packages.
<micahg> xnox: and lp:ubuntu/foo is just an alias anyways...
<xnox> So I guess I diverged.
<micahg> xnox: right, that's how it's commonly done
<xnox> What is our current NEW packages policy w.r.t. to what we will, will not accept and where (archive vs extras)
<micahg> well, for those using the bzr workflow...
<xnox> I guess extras has their own policy.
<tumbleweed> in my mind, the policy is we want the package to go to Debian, unless there's a good reason why it can't
<xnox> What is our policy? doesn't fit in debian nor extras?
 * xnox wonders where the current policy is.
<tumbleweed> extras would be an approiate target for packages that can't get into Debian
<tumbleweed> for *many packages
<tumbleweed> xnox: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<tumbleweed> so, the two MOTU signoff requirement - I've never seen that actually enforced
<tumbleweed> (and I wish it was, sometimes)
<tumbleweed> oh, right, it only applies to non-MOTUs
<Laney> it was in the REVU days
<tumbleweed> but that's pretty bogus, as it has to be sponsored by a MOTU at some point...
<Laney> not at the AA level, mind
<xnox> well ubuntu-devs package and upload their toy projects, then we have kde/gnome/etc packaging new upstream releases with added new packages. So it may appear as if you can just do it.
<micahg> tumbleweed: well, I was under the impression it applied to everyone, just that the AA could serve as the second signoff if they so desired
<tumbleweed> micahg: it doesn't appear to be stated explicitly
<micahg> tumbleweed: hrm, I thought I fixed that at some point :)
<micahg> but probably not anywhere that anyone reads
<ScottK> It was never a REQUIREMENT for ubuntu-dev to get a second.  Just highly suggested.
<Laney> that's pretty bogus and renders the policy worthless
<micahg> right
<Laney> because then you always have two signoffs
<micahg> which is the current status basically :)
<tumbleweed> AA review isn't the same as two-MOTU for REVU review, though
<Laney> there's no point in having these legalistic hacks - if the policy doesn't happen then it's no policy
<ScottK> I can upload it to Debian with no other reviews and it'll get autosync'ed in, so why should it be harder to upload to Ubuntu?
<tumbleweed> ScottK: because nobody will maintain it?
<micahg> ScottK: maybe to force you to push through Debian :)
<dholbach> the problem stays the same, wherever it's uploaded
<ScottK> tumbleweed: Second signoff has no effect on maintenance.
<tumbleweed> but yes, that's why I raised this, having a consistent policy that we can all agree with would be nice
<xnox> Should we bring this problem higher up? E.g. with devel board / release / tech-board?
<xnox> Cause what we really want is "Universe Inclusion Report" =)
<xnox> with completely different and more relaxed rules, but still enforced by Archive Admins (e.g. incomplete Universe Report)
<dholbach> yes, it might be worth to raise this problem in another forum
<xnox> that can be easly referenced.
<xnox> ..
<xnox> any takers?
<tumbleweed> I would suggest having slightly more croncrete plan first
<xnox> Sure. So we should draft Universe Inclusion Report - what we think should be enforced and what exceptions apply.
<xnox> E.g. autosyncs from Debian is fair game, but not from NEW queue.
<Laney> I'd rather no bureaucracy and sponsors/uploaders just do it right
<Laney> is there any evidence that we're /still/ doing this badly?
<xnox> E.g. if appropriate redirect to extras.
<Laney> it's been some time since we started being hard about pushing people to debian
<xnox> Otherwise the ITP bug report needs 2 Acks for sanity.
<xnox> Laney: good point is this still a problem?
 * xnox doesn't monitor new queue, not sure how many there were last cycle.
<Laney> you can't tell until some time later anyway
<Laney> if someone cares, they should look at all of the ubuntu uploaded packages in the last year or so and see what's happened
<Laney> anyway, I saw a message on G+ the other day (yesterday?) where someone was complaining about the ARB backlog
<Laney> it strikes me that MOTU could use this as an opportunity to show ourselves as a better alternative to that :-)
<tumbleweed> we don't appear to have the will for that
<xnox> Laney: by redirecting to frozen Debian?
 * xnox wants to move on.
<tumbleweed> frozen debian can still receive new packages
<tumbleweed> sure, move on
<dholbach> maybe let's just bring it up on ubuntu-devel@
<xnox> The agenda point is a bit sloppy, maybe it needs to be improved first. Cause the discussion we just had lacked focus a little =)
<xnox> dholbach: maybe.
<xnox> I think we should first have a least some rough consensus between 4 people before taking it up to ubuntu-devel, otherwise we will simply flame there =))))
<Laney> heh
<Laney> I'm sure we would also have folded under the weight of 300 submissions at once :-)
<xnox> =))))
<xnox> ..
<xnox> #topic Killing off sqlite 2 (src:sqlite)
<xnox> So one of the big items on the list is Asterisk 11 which is now released.
<xnox> Anybody knows the state of the art with Asterisk 11 packaging?
<micahg> is that in raring?
<xnox> micahg: nope, nor in experimental.
<micahg> I see no Debian bug about it
<xnox> to be honest I wouldn't expect it yet.
<xnox> As it was only released on Halloween.
<xnox> http://blogs.digium.com/2012/10/31/asterisk-11-now-available/
<xnox> carry over
<xnox> ..
<xnox> # Fixed items
 * xnox anybody knows what happens here?
<xnox> dholbach: ? bugfixinginitiative? well lintian was a big item...
<dholbach> from the Dev Advisory Team: Business as usual. Reaching out to new/experienced contributors.
<dholbach> xnox, yes, I'll update the page
<xnox> dholbach: hmmm... can we nominate logan for motu?
<xnox> =)))))
<dholbach> xnox, haha
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> YOU mentioned it, bdrung did, seb128 did
<dholbach> and I just mailed him as part of my d-a-t activities today :)
<dholbach> so let's see what he says :)
 * xnox thinks it's a long term solution for the sponsorship queue size for a good few months I think ;-)
<dholbach> it might help a bit
<xnox> # AOB =)
 * xnox who will update minutes? chair next meeting?
 * xnox chaired today, so I am out :DDDD
<dholbach> I'm still looking for speakers for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Timetable
<dholbach> and would love to have more guests in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Hangouts
<dholbach> but that's all the AOB I have
<xnox> dholbach: what are you covering in your two introduction sessions?
<dholbach> http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/introduction-to-ubuntu-development.html and http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/getting-set-up.html - maybe a bit of http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/fixing-a-bug.html if time permits
<dholbach> :)
 * xnox thinks to cover mk-sbuild & pbuilder-dist for multi-distro & compiling for armhf.
<dholbach> that'd be awesome
<xnox> dholbach: I'll email you =)
<dholbach> you're a hero!
<xnox> End meeting?
<dholbach> yep
<micahg> should we address the queue issue dholbach brought up on the ML?
<dholbach> thanks a lot xnox
<dholbach> micahg: which one?
<micahg> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2012-November/000993.html
<xnox> #action micahg to sponsor everything from the queue. ;-)
<dholbach> ah yes - basically: everyone should feel really invited to help with sponsoring - if you have upload rights, please help out - it's worth the time!
<xnox> =)))))))))))))))
<micahg> xnox: not this week :)
<xnox>  /msg micahg shall I be scared about CVEs in emacs24?
<xnox> =)
<micahg> xnox: nah, we can just make it a transitional package to vim :)
<xnox> micahg: to provide similar experience you will need to add memory leaks to vim and sleep() on startup =)
<dholbach> does anyone have any questions or concerns about the sponsoring situation we should discuss?
<xnox> #endmeeting
 * xnox fail
<xnox> dholbach: well we should sponsor stuff, there aren't many other options to be honest.
<micahg> dholbach: there's an issue with stuff lingering in the queue after it's been looked at (usually incomplete)
<dholbach> is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews#Keeping_the_Sponsoring_Queue_manageable insufficient?
<micahg> dholbach: can't say that I've read that before...
<dholbach> ok, maybe I should follow up on the post and point to it explicitly :)
<micahg> dholbach: doesn't say anything about if something needs tweaking if ubuntu-sponsors should be left or removed
<dholbach> I can do that
<dholbach> any suggested wording? I can put it in there
<micahg> I usually unsubscribe sponsors, but can't say that I always do it
<dholbach> ok, I'll just cook up something
<dholbach> if you come across something which hasn't been changed in a longer while it might make sense to do it
<dholbach> thanks for the suggestion
<dholbach> xnox, looks like that's it
<xnox> .
<xnox> ..
<xnox> ...
<xnox> #endmeeting really now =)
<dholbach> thanks everyone! thanks xnox
<cielak> alright, so who's there for the meeting?
<cielak> I forgot to send a meeting reminder yesterday
 * mfisch waves
<jono> hey!
<cielak> hi jono, great to see you!
<jono> ditto cielak :-)
<jono> today is my first day back, so I am going to be multitasking a little with this meeting :-)
<jono> is there an agenda?
<cielak> not really, I did not have specific topics to discuss
<cielak> so I guess this meeting is a chance to sync up with others
<mfisch> we can discuss the status of the 0.4 goals
<jono> I am a little behind on things as I haven't been keeping up with email
<jono> I see that there is a flurry of new people interested in participating :-)
<mfisch> yes
<cielak> jono: this is right, we had an unexpectedly high number of interested contributors
<jono> awesome!
<jono> what areas are these folks working on?
<mfisch> we had someone fix all the pep8 stuff in the viewer
<cielak> there is Zilvador working on new accomps, Marqin helps to create a HTML template for viewer's accom details display
<mfisch> cielak and i also caught up on some submitted accomplishments
<cielak> we're also getting in touch with interested designers
<mfisch> Robin did the pep8 stuff
<cielak> a friend of mine is very interested in redesigning trophy icons, she will probably contact us within few days
<jono> do we need new trophy icons?
<cielak> actually what we need are trophy silhouette templates
<jono> gotcha
<cielak> currently all icons look exactly the same
<jono> right
<cielak> and variety would make them much more interesting
<jono> I agree that nicer icons would be great
<jono> so one thing I wanted to discuss with you cielak and mfisch
<jono> is transitioning the server over to you
<jono> right now I am becoming a bottleneck
<jono> maybe we can schedule a hangout next week and I can show you how it works
<cielak> since we are speaking about the icons, I have currently applied a fix to both daemon and collections - the -locked icon variations are now provided by collection and not the daemon
<cielak> right
<jono> cielak, what is the purpose of the lock icon change?
<cielak> what about this time next week? I guess this time would be probably fine to us all
<jono> cielak, great idea
<jono> lets do that
<jono> oh actually I cant
<jono> I will be at an event
<jono> how about 1pm Pacific on Tues next week cielak, mfisch?
<mfisch> I think that works
<jono> mfisch, cool
<cielak> jono: basically the point is that the icons are 'static' data, and regenerating them everytime daemon starts takes additional time, is prone to bugs, and pulls in unwanted dependencies on image manipulation libraries
<cielak> jono: I've posted a broader explanation here: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-accomplishments-contributors/msg00480.html
 * cielak converts pacific to utc
<mfisch> cielak: it's 11:12 AM pacific right now
<mfisch> cielak: I'd like to add a new test during the package build to ensure that every trophy has a locked and unlocked version
<jono> cielak, right, the reason I did it that way was that it only generates the icons once, but then we don't have different lock icons in different sets
<jono> cielak, I don't see why we would not just use the same lock icon and I wanted to keep the bar low for creating collections
<jono> hence why the daemon generates the lock icons
<jono> also, in terms of the deps, because we deploy on Ubuntu, this isnt an issue really as the dep is satisfied by the archive
<cielak> okay, I am fine with that meeting time
<jono> cielak, awesome!
<cielak> mfisch, jono: okay, let me explain few more details about my implementation
<jono> cielak, cool :-)
<cielak> first, the -locked version is not necessary
<cielak> if it's not present, nothing bad will happen, the standard version will be used instead
<cielak> second: I made a script that automatically creates -locked images applying the lock icon
<cielak> it's bundled with the collection, alongside trophy images
<mfisch> but you run that before checkin?
<jono> cielak, ahhh I see
<cielak> third: one may want to substitute the autogenerated icon, in such case using own -locked will result in it being shown in the viewer, instead of the auto-generated one
<cielak> mfisch: nope, it does not get run automatically
<jono> cielak, but one problem is if we want to change the locked icon across all collections
<jono> we then rely on the collection author changing it
<jono> speaking personally, I am happy if you make this change, I just don't really see the need for it
<mfisch> my worry is that people will forget to make a locked icon
<cielak> I even feel that third-party collections may want to use their custom images which won't match our style at all
<jono> mfisch, that is my concern too
<mfisch> cielak: did you also change the server's unit tests?  theres one for locked icons I think
<jono> I don't think people should be able to use custom lock icons
<jono> the lock icon is part of the view UI in my mind
<mfisch> if we have a locked trophy w/o a lock icon someone will file a bug
<cielak> mfisch: nope, I am not touching server source at all
<mfisch> cielak: I thought you removed the lock generation code?
<cielak> aah, you mean the daemon, thought you were speaking about the validation server
<cielak> the tests are not adjusted, but they did not fail for me, though
<cielak> (maybe I am running them a wrong way?)
<jono> cielak, my concern here is that this provides an opportunity for different lock icons in different collections, which will make the experience less consistent
<jono> this is why I wrote it the way it is, to prevent this risk
<cielak> alright, then let's at least move the icon manipulation to the viewer
<cielak> as a part of UI
<jono> cielak, right, but what about other viewers?
<jono> it would be a shame to expect every viewer to implement support for a lock icon
<jono> such as the lens
<jono> or the web gallery
<cielak> well I feel they should be totally free to use their own icon
<jono> cielak, so maybe we do this:
<jono> so maybe the daemon has its default lock icon, as it is now
<jono> but then the viewer can override this icon if needed
<jono> so the viewer can say (I have my own icon) and it does the work of overlaying it on the stock trophies
<jono> then we get the best of both worlds
<cielak> hmm, alright, though this two-way communication may be difficult
<jono> cielak, is this lock icon issue a problem we need to solve?
<jono> it seems like so far all our viewers are fine with the current lock icon
<jono> I just wonder if we are simly trying to solve a hypothetical problem
<cielak> it was something that caused us some problems in the past
<jono> has it?
<jono> when?
<cielak> and I do not really enjoy having the daemon recalculate exactly the same images on my other machine, which is slow, and that increases daemon startup time
<cielak> the viewer tends to have problems if the icon cache is not ready
<cielak> we have some workarounds for that
<mfisch> I think the processing time, start-up time and extra deps are the issues
<jono> cielak, but it only recalculates them once
<jono> cielak, it should only do it if the icons are not there
<cielak> jono: true, but this `once` is 5-10 more secs for startup
<jono> otherwise it skips recreating them
<jono> cielak, I don't think that is a big deal
<cielak> how can it know the icons are not outdated?
<jono> cielak, that is a good point, but I think the icons will be rarely outdated
<jono> and a postinst script could regen them
<cielak> hm, they are stored in ~/... so postinst scripts are not ideal solution
<cielak> well, maybe indeed I've been solving a problem that is only hypotetical
<mfisch> no we can't use post-inst
<cielak> but then again, I still consider it more elegant to give collection full control over it's icons
<jono> cielak, I think it is cool you are wanting to fix up all the loose ends, but I am not sure this this that big of a deal
<mfisch> I'm pretty neutral on this
<mfisch> are we finished on this topic?
<cielak> I guess so
<mfisch> jono: I need to change the meeting, I have a dr appt at 12:30 Pacific  on tuesday
<mfisch> I also propose that we think more about this icon thing and perhaps discuss more via email
<mfisch> we may have lost jono momentarily
<cielak> apparently
<mfisch> cielak: I still need to try to re-review Tony Vec's accomplishments
<mfisch> I'm not sure what state they're in, but perhaps I can make them work
<jono> sorry had to give a status update
<cielak> that would be great, they have been stuck for some time already
<jono> mfisch, can you do 30mins later?
<mfisch> jono: possibly, but it's a 20 min, drive, doing it an hour would be safer
<jono> cielak, is doing it an hour later ok for you?
<cielak> it should be
<cielak> mfisch: what is the state of PEP8 fixes? did that recent MP bring all what we need, or can't be yet marked as done?
<mfisch> I haven't checked
<mfisch> I think they're all fixed
<mfisch> but I'll check
<mfisch> give me 2 mins
<mfisch> cielak: whats the progress on the web gallery?
<cielak> I have no idea
<cielak> I know janos commits stuff regurarly
<cielak> not frequently, but regurarly
<jono> cielak, awesome, I will change the time
<jono> so I also heard that the RT for the server is going through
<jono> so we should have the Canonical deployed accom server up and running soon
<mfisch> nice
<jono> mhall119, is away today, but we can sync up next week on this
<jono> I am really keen for us to roll out accomplishments more widely to the community
<cielak> that's cool
<jono> it will get more people interested in getting involved too :-)
<mfisch> cielak: so the pep8 stuff is fixed aside from some long lines that will be annoying to split
<mfisch> there's no pretty way to split this line up
<mfisch> self.cb_daemonsessionstart.set_active(bool(self.libaccom.get_daemon_session_start()))
<cielak> renaming stuff to shorter names would solve this
<cielak> but it's not really what we may want
<mfisch> we dont need to do that just for pep8
<jono> sorry guys, I am in a team meeting right now too
<mfisch> cielak: did we have much else?
<cielak> I guess not
<mfisch> cielak: I closed the pep8 bug
<cielak> thanks
<mfisch> cielak: lets also close this bug
<mfisch> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-accomplishments-viewer/+bug/1030437
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1030437 in Ubuntu Accomplishments Viewer "accomplishments viewer icon looks bad in unity-2d" [Low,Confirmed]
<cielak> hmm
<cielak> this is actually a hilarious stuff
<cielak> do you realise why it actually renders incorrectly?
<mfisch> no
<cielak> here's a hint: on a Windows machine, it renders as a trophy *without* ubuntu logo
<cielak> empty space instead of it
<cielak> the ubuntu logo visible in that .svg icon is actually a text layer over the trophy template
<mfisch> ah
<cielak> the text consists of just one char
<cielak> which is ubuntu symbol in ubuntu-font
<mfisch> ah cool
<cielak> so fixing this is about actually making the logo a piece of graphics
<mfisch> yep
<mfisch> but unity2d is gone after precise
<cielak> we are going to still support precise, though, right?
<mfisch> are we going to be in universe for P?
<mfisch> well if so lets keep it
<mfisch> we're out of time anyway
<cielak> right
<cielak> so thanks for the meeting, mfisch, jono!
<mfisch> thanks cielak
<jono> cielak, thanks! sorry I was a little quiet for the second half
<jono> damn phone calls :-)
<cielak> no problem ;)
<jono> cielak, would love to chat more when I am a bit caught up at work
<jono> first day back today
<jono> thanks cielak for your efforts!
<cielak> jono: sure! you know what's the channel where I can be found ;)
<jono> :-)
<jono> I can't wait to roll out accomplishments across the community :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-30
 * popey hugs didrocks 
 * didrocks hugs popey back
<Aeefire> greetings
<vrnithin> hi
<newbe5> I'm here for the Meat
<achiang> hello everyone, let's get started with the weekly Nexus 7 meeting
<achiang> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 30 16:00:28 2012 UTC.  The chair is achiang. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<achiang> today, we have a light agenda
<achiang> 1) brief status update
<achiang> 2) discussion about memory leaks
<achiang> 3) q&a
<achiang> #topic Status Update
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status Update
<achiang> oops, i don't know if that's what i wanted
<achiang> #meetingtopic status update
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | status update Meeting | Current topic:  Status Update
<achiang> oh well
<mfisch> can't help you with meetingbot :(
<achiang> anyway, i am sure that people have been eagerly awaiting the announcement for switching to raring
<achiang> i am sorry to disappoint, but we have to wait just a little while longer
<achiang> the last thing we are waiting for is a fix for nux, which is the opengl toolkit that unity is built on top of
<achiang> the good news is, nux has been fixed
<dholbach> good to see that many people are joining in
<ogra_> well, you can play with the images by tapping blindly :)
<mfisch> when will it be ready?
<dholbach> achiang, I talked to didrocks and he said it will land early next week
<ogra_> only nux is missing
<achiang> the bad news is, a proper package has not been built and uploaded into raring
<dholbach> the problem is that the test-suite or the test-suite runner needs a fix
<achiang> nod
<dholbach> he said early next week, at worst mid next week
<achiang> so we hope to have an announcement by the end of next week
<dholbach> (https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/nux/nux.depth-texture-detection-support/+merge/134729 for reference)
<achiang> exciting times!
<didrocks> also unity is failing to build on armhf for now
<achiang> ogra_: any other status updates for us you'd like to give?
<dholbach> another piece of feedback I have is that onboard will be reuploaded to the ppa (or the archive) because it's currently uninstallable
<didrocks> which isn't useful for the nexus7 :)
<ogra_> plymouth kind of works :)
<didrocks> so yeah, those are tracked and under fix
<dholbach> I assume that a simple rebuild (maybe of virtkey too) will do it
<ogra_> the installer (oem-config) works fine thanks to xnox for making compiz work in there (that fixed a wallpaper corruption bug for us)
<dholbach> would be better to get onboard/virtkey into raring archive, so we can get rid of the ppa for good
<achiang> +1
<ogra_> and currently i'm looking into making the initrd smaller so we can drop some hacks
<dholbach> apart from that my dist-upgrade to raring went fine ;-)
<achiang> ogra_: how about the daily images? what is the url?
<ogra_> (or the kernel, either of tehm has to shrink)
<ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
<achiang> [link] http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
<achiang> #link http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/
<ogra_> one issue we still need to solve is the size, the current image is only suitable for 6G
<achiang> hm, guess who doesn't know how to use meetingbot! :)
<achiang> ok, any other status people want to share?
<ogra_> i worked a bit with infinity on that part already but that will need further work (we will most likely switch from tar,gz to tar,xz internally)
<ogra_> s/\,/\./
<achiang> cool
<achiang> ogra_: anything else?
<ogra_> i think thats about it atm ... oh, i uploaded fixes for most of the bugs that were fixable by changing gsettings
<achiang> ogra_: great, i hope you ran those changes past the desktop team. :)
<kyleN_> ogra does that include the gksudo one?
<ogra_> achiang, defaults-seetings :)
<ogra_> kyleN_, nope, gksudo will be unseeded
<kyleN_> ogra is their an alternate approach?
<kyleN_> there
<ogra_> it is supposed to go away since over a year now ... time to actually make that happen ;)
<ogra_> pkexec, we use it everywheer already
<kyleN_> ack
<bootidsa> o/
<achiang> bootidsa: go
<bootidsa> Quick question .. does anyone know Where one can buy a Nexus 7 with Ubuntu ?
<achiang> this is not a product that comes pre-installed
<ogra_> you cant, you can only buy a nexus and install ubuntu yourself
<dholbach> bootidsa, but installing it is very easy - just refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation
<bootidsa> not on Auction sites ?
<kyleN_> it is a developer oriented build for now
<bootidsa> oh OK
<dholbach> it's VERY easy
<achiang> maybe bootidsa has discovered a business plan for us?
<dholbach> $$$
<ogra_> achiang, oh, one thing that struck me additionally to the tegra drivers ... raring just switched to gstreamer 1.0
<gatox> i have Ubuntu installed in my Nexus7... i would like to contribute to the development..... is this possible?
<kyleN_> there's an installer script that, as dholbach said, makes installing it very easy
<mfisch> gatox: sure, we'
<achiang> gatox: let's take that question at the end please
<kyleN_> gatox YES
<mfisch> gatox: sure we'd love to have help
<ogra_> achiang, that means the nvidia codecs and gstreamer bits will need to be ported by them
<dholbach> gatox, that'd be awesome
<gatox> achiang, ack
<achiang> ok, i think the status section of the meeting is wrapping up
<achiang> 5 more seconds for someone to give status...
<ogra_> gatox, just hang around in #ubuntu-arm ... we're all there ;)
<achiang> ok, great
<achiang> let's move on
<gatox> ogra-cb_, awesome..... thx!
<achiang> the big topic for today is memory leaks
<achiang> we think this would be a great place for the community to get involved...
<achiang> and with that
<achiang> i will hand it over to kyleN_
<achiang> kyleN_: if you could do a quick intro of yourself
<kyleN_> thx achiang
<bootidsa> clang ?
<achiang> and then go for it!
<kyleN_> I worked with achiang and for canonical.
<achiang> present tense... kyleN_ still works with me and still works for canonical :)
<kyleN_> i think this is an exciting project with the potentia to improve Ubuntu generaly
<kyleN_> right ;)
<kyleN_> so, I'll give an overview of our current thinking about memory leaks
<kyleN_> Valgrind finds memory leaks for a giving executable and its calls.
<kyleN_> Memory leaks should be eliminated (they are especially nasty on memory constrained devices).
<mfisch> Valgrind works for C/C++ code only?
<kyleN_> Valgrind does a better job of producing helpful output when C debug symbols are present.
<kyleN_> mfisch, yes, I think so. achiang?
<achiang> good question, i don't know but will go find out
<achiang> will circle back, continue on kyleN_ !
<kyleN_> By default debug symbols are not installed to conserve disk. Debug symbols are available in other -dbg pkgs.
<kyleN_> So we are automating the task of getting all the debug pkgs for the executable and its dependencies.
<feasty>  Static analysis tools can help
<kyleN_> They are unpacked into a directory, not installed as debian pkgs.
<kyleN_> And they can be easily deleted after use.
<kyleN_> We run valgrind and pass it that directory to also look in when resolving symbols.
<kyleN_> The result is that there are far fewer unknown symbols in the valgrind log.
<achiang> "Valgrind works with programs written in any language. Because Valgrind works directly with program binaries, it works with programs written in any programming language, be they compiled, just-in-time compiled, or interpreted."
<kyleN_> (Unknown symbols look like this: "???")
<kyleN_> ^ nice
<kyleN_> This all means we can look at the stack traces and see where the memory leaks actually occured.
<kyleN_> That is, which actual function call is probably responsible.
<kyleN_> We can theoretically find an report only unique memory leaks (not previously reported).
<bootidsa> :) I've just bought a Nexus 7 on an Auction site & I'm putting Ubuntu on there and I'm gonna resell it just to fill the void of demand .. What price should I set as reserve ?
<kyleN_> And in this way, we can improve the Ubuntu stack for memory constrained devices and in general!
<kyleN_> I think this will be a great way for the community to get involved (among many other ways!)
<kyleN_> One more related topic: valgrind suppr files. These inform valgrind of false-positive memory leaks. That is, leaks that look like leaks but that are not leaks.
<feasty> What about running something like Sonar across code?
<kyleN_> feasty, pls hold on just a moment :)
<kyleN_> These suppr files remove noise from the valgrind logs.
<kyleN_> We will want to improve these suppr files, and maybe auto install them when running this valgrind driver stuff referred to above.
<kyleN_> OK, that's the overview of our current thinking of improving tooling to find unique memory leaks.
<kyleN_> one last point
<kyleN_> achiang, blogged about vagrind, memory leaks, and related a couple days back. very useful blog.
<kyleN_> achiang, do you have the URL?
<mfisch> I'll get it
<achiang> http://www.chizang.net/alex/blog/2012/11/23/memory-leaks-in-ubuntu-episode-i-detection/
<achiang> http://www.chizang.net/alex/blog/2012/11/28/memory-leaks-in-ubuntu-episode-ii-analysis/
<dholbach> achiang, thanks a lot for putting this together
<achiang> there are a few more episodes to come
<achiang> i will make a statement about episode I
<achiang> in there, i linked to a crappy script that i wrote to help track down debug symbols and remove the ??? that kyleN_ was talking about earlier
<achiang> the good news is, kyleN_ is working on a much nicer tool to do all this for you
<kyleN_> so feasty, would you like to say something about the approach and usefulness of sonar?
<achiang> kyleN_: one sec
<kyleN_> k
<achiang> we are not ready to share this tool yet, but we can give a little preview
<achiang> it consists of 2 parts
<achiang> 1) an updated valgrind, that can look in any directory for debug symbols
<achiang> (i wrote a patch for that and it is being discussed upstream now)
<achiang> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310792
<ubottu> KDE bug 310792 in general "[PATCH v2] search additional path for debug symbols" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<feasty> I was just saying that static analysis tools might help us track down memory leaks. I use a commercial one at work called Coverity but it utilises Sonar I believe as part of it's analysis.
<achiang> 2) an updated apport, which is what kyleN_ is working on. we're writing an awesome wrapper script around valgrind
<achiang> and in the end, you will be able to just say:
<achiang> apport-valgrind <my binary>
<feasty> It supports a range of languages too
<achiang> and the tool will grab all the debug symbols magically, unpack them somewhere so you don't pollute your system, profile your application, and produce a log
<achiang> as you might imagine, this will be great once it's done
<achiang> so we'll share that *hopefully* next week, but stay tuned...
<achiang> alrighty, back to kyleN_
<kyleN_> ok
<kyleN_> thanks feasty for noting that.
<feasty> np
<kyleN_> my overview is complete, so I am handing this back :)
<kyleN_> athought perhaps one more point
<kyleN_> we very much plan to empower the community to help out
<bootidsa> agreed,   ...
<kyleN_> by 1) providing a simple method of finding (unique) memory leaks
<kyleN_> 2) establishing some infrastructure for reporting them that is easy to use and allows developers to actually fix them
<achiang> feasty: static analysis tools are good. however, we are trying to write some tools that people with a broad range of technical background can help out with. static analysis tools are really aimed at developers.
<kyleN_> this will, as I mentioned, be great for memory constrained devices like Nexus 7.
<achiang> what kyleN_ is talking about is a simple tool that non-developers can use, which will collect data that will still be useful for developers
<kyleN_> but importantly, it will help improve the entire Ubuntu stack going forward, so this is impoartnat
<kyleN_> with that, I am done :)
<achiang> alrighty, that segues nicely into q&a
<achiang> happy to answer any questions, either related to memory leaks specifically or nexus7 in general
<bootidsa> :) I've just bought a Nexus 7 on an Auction site & I'm putting Ubuntu on there and I'm gonna resell it just to fill the void of demand .. What price should I set as reserve ?
<achiang> floor is open
<feasty> achiang Ah ok, sorry just through we were hunting leaks :).
<achiang> bootidsa: i was making a joke earlier about that, i don't think that's an appropriate topic for us to cover here
<bootidsa> oh OK. thanx.
<dholbach> What apart from the nux fix and the onboard update are still blockers for raring? Also: will we recommend to dist-upgrade or reflash?
<ogra_> re-flash
<ogra_> people *can* upgrade if they really want to
<dholbach> dist-upgrade (not update-manager, mentioned it to mvo already) "worked" for me earlier and folks wouldn't need to wait for updated images or an updated nexus7-installer
<achiang> feasty: something like sonar might be interesting for upstream developers, but not the broader community. 2 different use cases. i agree sonar looks interesting but we're trying to cover the 2nd case here :)
<ogra_> but fir the sake of not having eyeryone running around with ubuntu/ubuntu credendials we should recommend a re-flash
<dholbach> ogra_, ah, makes sense :)
<achiang> +1 to re-flash, we're getting that tooling all in place now
<dholbach> sweet
<achiang> other than nux and onboard, i do not believe there are any blockers
<dholbach> that's good news
<feasty> achiang, That's fair enough. I just missed that part :)
 * ogra_ uses the raring daily all the time here 
<achiang> feasty: np :)
<ogra_> no blockers if you know how to click blindly ;)
<achiang> ogra_ forgets that not everyone is a superman like him, so for us normal people, i recommend to just wait a few more days! :)
<dholbach> yeah, there'll be announcements :)
<kyleN_> achiang, where will he announcement occcur?
<kyleN_> or dholbach ?
<ogra_> haha, come on, firefox is the third icon from the top and ctrl-alt-t works from onboard to get a terminal :)
<ogra_> what else do you need :)
<dholbach> kyleN_, I'd say ubuntu-devel@, blogs and the @ubuntudev social media accounts at least
<dholbach> maybe rather ubuntu-devel-announce@
<achiang> yup, dholbach has a big megaphone and i'm sure will find a way to make everyone aware
<ogra_> and blogs, lots of them :)
<dholbach> I can't wait!
<achiang> if people reading episode II on my blog find it hard to read or there are questions, i would love to clarify any confusing bits
<achiang> so feedback is welcome
<dholbach> I'd be interested to hear who's interested in helping with testing or memleak-analysis or anything else? Can we have a show of hands?
<achiang> \o/
<kyleN_> o/
<dholbach> *\o/*
<kyleN_> May I say that while detecting memory leaks may seem boring, it is actualy VERY important to the future
<achiang> i think it's fun, i like doing detective work like this and yelling at my computer
<feasty> I'd be ineterested in memory leak hunting/fixing
<dholbach> sweet
<ogra_> so if you plan on children be sure to help us !
<ogra_> (or did i get that future thing wrong ?)
<kyleN_> ogra: we will use harsh words about your children if you don't help us :)
<ogra_> haha
<achiang> there you have it... we need to save the rain forests, save the glaciers, and find memory leaks!
<feasty> Are there any particular packages we should concentrate on?
<ogra_> tehoretically everything thats preinstalled
<achiang> feasty: i would say if there is an app you use every day or an app that's giving you problems... those are the 2 best places to start
<feasty> Ok cool
<achiang> however, i would *not* recommend trying to profile firefox or chrome / chromium
<achiang> those programs are extremely complex, and the upstreams already actively profile
<achiang> so the best place to help is the more neglected applications
<ogra_> not on arm linux usually though
<achiang> i think hunting down memory leaks in firefox or chromium might take advanced skills, e.g., you can't just run valgrind on firefox in a simple manner
<achiang> it is possible, but tricky
<ogra_> (chrome probably does for chromeos, not sure. but usually arm linux is a second class citizen upstream)
<kyleN_> we done, dholbach?
<achiang> any other questions for q&a?
<bootidsa> What is the best PDF reader to use on this platform to skim through manuals .. for example ?
<dholbach> kyleN_, think so
<ogra_> i dont thik there is any touch friendly one in the archive atm
<ogra_> so the preinstalled (evince) will be as good as any
<bootidsa> I've had soo many problems with evince .. I just subscribed to the mailing list in the end .
<achiang> alrighty
<ogra_> (i might be wrong, probably evince even does touch already, havent tried it)
<rrnwexec> Q: Are there any plans to include an email client? (Some) research shows that checking email is the #1 use case for tablets.
<kyleN_> (isn't there a pkg that converts touch events to mouse events for non-touch friendy apps?)
<bootidsa> I think this is *key* to the platform , but what would I know ... I'm just a n00b.
<rrnwexec> Citation: http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/research.google.com/es//pubs/archive/38135.pdf
<achiang> ogra_: the raring image will have thunderbird, right?
<ogra_> rrnwexec, once we have fixed some image size issues re-including thunderbird and openoffice shuld be possible
<ogra_> achiang, currently it doesnt
<ogra_> but i plan to brin it back once we switched to xz
<ogra_> *bring
<achiang> rrnwexec: ok, so the answer is, "we intend to, but need to work out some engineering issues"
<rrnwexec> great. thank you.
<ogra_> Tb isnt particulary touch friendly either though
<ogra_> i bet with gmail and the grab n drag extension in firefoxx you are better off
<achiang> perhaps webapps?
<rrnwexec> Interstingly, tablets are rarely used for "office productivity" apps.
<achiang> a great 12.10 feature
<achiang> ok, any more questions?
<Aeefire> yes
<bootidsa> Can the tablet use a stylus ?
<achiang> bootidsa: yes, a stylus can be used. i watched someone in Copenhagen use a stylus on the nexus7
<ogra_> yes, but the capacitive sytluses you can buy arent usually smaller than your pinky
<rrnwexec> I'm using a stylus. I find it much more usable.
<Aeefire> I'd like to ask something more general (hopefully it hasn't been covered already): Have I understood it right, that ubuntu on N7 is just a "proof of concept" and you MAY broaden support to other devices?
<rrnwexec> it's smaller than my pinky too ;)
<achiang> i'll take that one
<ogra_> fat pinky he ?
<ogra_> :)
<achiang> Ubuntu on the N7 is intended to serve as a reference / developer platform
<achiang> we want to get a cheap, easy-to-use ARM device into the hands of more people
<achiang> older solutions like panda boards were still not super user friendly
<bootidsa> has anyone updated the 'road-map' on launchpad ?
<ogra_> it could happen that we switch to another platform at some point ... i wouldnt actually call that broadening though
<Aeefire> mhm
<achiang> the goal is for everyone to use the same hardware
<achiang> to make fixing bugs easier
<achiang> fixing bugs is a LOT easier when you do not have to ask in launchpad: what hardware do you have? i can't reproduce it here
<ogra_> it is very likely that we move on with that concept in later releases, for now the nexus7 is the focus though
<rrnwexec> +1 for uniform hardware
<Aeefire> i understand that.
<achiang> if everyone has the same hardware, then that removes one more piece of friction between testers and developers
<Aeefire> fine!
<ogra_> the point is though ...
<achiang> since we have standardized on the N7, it's unlikely that we'll move to a new platform any time soon
<ogra_> the nexus brings us support for android devices in a certain setup in general
<achiang> it was hard enough to get to here in the first place :)
<ogra_> which means if someone wants to roll images for a device thats similar structured it shouldnt be hard to produce one
<ogra_> i.e. if you feel like maintaining a nexus10 kernel and roll images as part of the community, you are invited to learn how and do so ;)
<Aeefire> ya, but as you publish all your progress (?) other (interested and skillfull) people might port your builds to different devices/hardware and work on that in parallel
<ogra_> we surely wont block people that do the "breoadening" work
<ogra_> right
<bootidsa> Sorry, On launchpad, by 'road-map' I meant 'milestones' .. update-able ??
<achiang> yes, if you want to build on the progress, i suggest hanging out in #ubuntu-arm and asking questions. it's a friendly place :)
 * ogra_ regulary tries to update his tasks 
<dholbach> you should be able to just use the normal upgrade functionality within Ubuntu once we're on raring
<achiang> bootidsa: i don't believe we use milestones in launchpad for this project
<Aeefire> hehe right, but currently i just own an Asus EEE Pad Transformer Prime TF201, so that will probably exclude me from testing mostly, as i don't have the skills to port the builds myself ;)
<achiang> ok, we have 3 minutes left
<bootidsa> achiang, Wny not , how do I know where we are going/up to ?
<achiang> any other questions?
<Aeefire> and as poor student, a nexus 7 or 10 won't be incoming soon :) thanks for the answer!
<ogra_> bootidsa, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ have a look there
<dholbach> bootidsa, and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7 is an additional TODO list, if that helps
<ogra_> ( i dont thik there is a particular nexus76 centric filter though)
<ogra_> -6
<achiang> ok, i think it's time to wrap up
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone! this was great
<achiang> thanks to kyleN__ for the valgrind discussion
<kyleN__> yw
<achiang> hopefully next week we'll have even more goodies for everyone
<ogra_> ++
<achiang> thanks all
<achiang> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 30 16:59:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-16.00.html
<rrnwexec> thanks achiang and team for everything so far.
<dholbach> (we can continue in #ubuntu-arm)
<achiang> emphasis on team. i'm just the paper pusher. :)
<ogra_> yeah
<bootidsa> thank-you everyone .. I get a nexus 7 with Ubuntu on ebay (WWide Make offer) next week .. dio a saved search and you'll get an email of it.
<bootidsa> **I'll
<bootidsa> Checking in for Ubuntu TVV meeting in half an hour ... Hi guys o/
<bobweaver> what up bootidsa
<CrestedNewt> hiya - looks like a full house. It's Tim S Joseph
<bobweaver> Hey CrestedNewt  nice to see that you are going to make it thansk
<bobweaver> thanks *
<bootidsa> Wow ... looks exciting .. just finished my dinner (I'm in Iom ) .. joined Ubuntu Tv start of year.
<bootidsa> Well I guess we can have a little banter before the meeting ?
<bobweaver> sure
<bootidsa> OK .. So my main gripe is that I dont have Ubuntu TV stuck to my wall .. where can I get one ?
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  lol you have to make one :)
<bootidsa> .. OK .. is there a blog for that ?
<CrestedNewt> lol -  Joseph is working on it!! I can build you the hardware if you want
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  depends on what you would like to use . like unity 2d (old mock up code) or the Unity 3d one (not finshed and you will hear more about that soon )
<bootidsa> CrestedNewt, I'd like to know that (in terms how much you need ) .
<bootidsa> Unity 2d is fine for me.
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  we can talk about that if you like butI must warn you that it was MOCK UP code
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa As far as I am aware, if it has a processor, graphics card and tuner, it will work
<bobweaver> as far as hardware it will run on anything thtat will run unity 2d
<bobweaver> and CrestedNewt  is correct tuner card is what gets you live tv and dvr
<bootidsa> CrestedNewt, It would be nice for me to-do a list on Am$zon  of what is required to get a compltered Flat screen from parts :)
<bootidsa> **completed.
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - quick question... is there the possibility of dual input, eg tuner and satellite inputs on same epg?
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  how I have mine (2d) is it is computer hooked up to tv (main backend) then I have other small box's that are on other tv that listen to loacl network
<bootidsa> oh sio its not actually in the flat screen itself .. its an add-on box , right ?
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  yes there is depends on the capture card I have 2 inputs on mine also captures vcr dvd player ect but I only use for tv atm
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  coorect it is just a different "form-factor " of unity
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - thx
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  but one could v.easy make for flat screen
<bobweaver> say if it can load usb or if it can load from sd
<bobweaver> or if you have Ubuntu phone
<bootidsa> bobweaver, It's interesting , but terms of the remote-jockeys I thought it ran inside the TV on arm .. why not that  (sorry if I'm going off abit) ?
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa - 2 options as I see it... 1. Built into screen by manufacturer so warrant is intact
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  I have installed to arm boards and works fine also
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa - 2. separate box
<bootidsa> right so it is possible then. thanx.
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  takes a minute and a half to compile though
<IdleOne> Someone please save me. I am stuck on imgur :/
<bobweaver> ok IdleOne
<bootidsa> What are the minimum spec's for the platorm to be used internaly on say, Arm TV-wise ?
<bobweaver> 1 gig ram and 1.0 ghz
<bobweaver> 9 gigs harddrive
<bobweaver> unity 2d ^^
<bobweaver> 3d is whole new story
<bootidsa> IdleOne, Try this one http://ompldr.org/about.html
<bootidsa> IdleOne, extension  dont work though !
<bobweaver> Imagebin also works well
<bobweaver> for temp stuff that is
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  we had a pi hack day at local hackerspace and where able to get it to run on pi but and this is a big but it was super super slow and froze all the time.
<CrestedNewt> at the last meeting, tgm4883 was saying that the future is 3D, not 2D, and that is where the effort should be directed
<bootidsa> bobweaver, Looks like atom would serve this bettr .. http://goo.gl/ofaUv
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  pandaboard ?
<bootidsa> bobweaver, no frame of reference to pandaboard.
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  not enough ram on that board
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard
<bobweaver> also http://www.pandaboard.org/
<bobweaver> I got 3d to run on that
<bobweaver> friends board
<bootidsa> bobweaver, Yeah , figures .. that's what I'm saying .. everything is so micro these days .. that's why I presumed it could be done 'inside' the Flat screen TV itself.
<bobweaver> yeah Would be cool to have a case but the thing about all that is capture card must be usb and are not as fast as pci ones
<bobweaver> making lag on TV happen for other fronends
<CrestedNewt> bootisda - I have been talking with someone about this and the problem is a matter of warranty...
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa only if the card and OS were supported by the manufacturer could it be INSIDE the TV
<bootidsa> right .. Are we at trhe stage where we can do S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio ??
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that is a good point warranty gpl says no to that right ?
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - it is the manufacturers warranty. eg I have a 5 year warranty on my plasma - if I change the internals I invalidate the warranty
<bootidsa> I dont thin we need to talk about warranty .. In the finalanalysis ..I just want one of these, hacked or whatever.
<bootidsa> **think
<tgm4883> bobweaver, could be ethernet
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - yes
<bootidsa> hi popey, o/
<tgm4883> one of the most popular tuners out there is ethernet (in the US anyway)
<YoBoY> hi
<bobweaver> Oo
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  could you find me some docs on that in the next week or so pretty please ?
<CrestedNewt> YoBoY - hiya
<tgm4883> bobweaver, docs on what?
<tgm4883> on what is popular?
<bobweaver> ethernet capture cards
<tgm4883> 29% of the market uses the HDHOMERUN
<bootidsa> Countdown to Ubyuntu TV meeting  @ 6pm ... I'll not join in much because I just want the finished product .. I'm not a developwer, sorry. Good luck guys !!
<tgm4883> 54% use DVB, but that could be USB/PCI/etc
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa - I'm not a developer either but we can all help one way or the other
 * bobweaver needs more money to test more hardware 
<CrestedNewt> lol
<bobweaver> brb door bell
<bootidsa> My only question is about S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio , possible ?
<CrestedNewt> bootidsa - why not use HDMI as it has the same throughput?
<bootidsa> It's just hardware critical side of things.
<tgm4883> bootidsa, why wouldn't it be possible?
<bootidsa> just checking...
<tgm4883> bootidsa, isn't it possible now?
<bootidsa> OK so who's doing the meeting then >?#
<tgm4883> I think bobweaver is running it
<bobweaver> back and no I did not want to by new windows from the guy that just knocked on door
<bobweaver> !startmeeting
<CrestedNewt> I'm in seeing that it is 18:00 - over to you bobweaver
<bobweaver> what is syntax to start bot ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, is there a link to the agenda?
<tgm4883> @startmeeting
<meetingology> tgm4883: Error: "startmeeting" is not a valid command.
<tgm4883> well it's not that ;)
<bobweaver> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Meetings
<IdleOne> #
<bobweaver> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 30 18:03:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is bobweaver. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bootidsa> Bettr give website for reference .. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntutv , i'll shutup now...
<bobweaver> IdleOne,  plz help me with bot ! lol
<bobweaver> Agenda Documentation: The wiki is kinda old and refers to unity 2d a whole lot
<bobweaver> so I got a email asking me "how to help with docs "
<jhodapp> hello all :)
<bobweaver> I noticed alot of things
<bobweaver> all the Unity 2d stuff needs to come down
<bobweaver> agree ?
<tgm4883> yea
<tgm4883> I see no point in having it up there
<bobweaver> like the getting involed pages
<bobweaver> any nahs on this ?
<tgm4883> the getting involved pages should point out how to contact us to help
<bobweaver> hello jhodapp
<tgm4883> and also link to the demo stuff
<tgm4883> but definitely remove the "building ubuntu tv 2d stuff"
<bobweaver> so like add a link to the old stuff in the new page tgm4883  ?
<tgm4883> eh, no
<bobweaver> explain plz
<bootidsa> i vote to change the wiki to 3d as described .
<tgm4883> write a quick summary of how to demo the stuff via the PPA you made
<bobweaver> ok
<tgm4883> remove the "this is how you build it", until you can build it on unity 3d
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  there is good news on that btw
<tgm4883> you can build it and all our work is finished? :)
<bobweaver> anyone else got anything to says about doc's ?
<CrestedNewt> I am happy to help out here
<bobweaver> lol tgm4883  never
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that would be great would you see me after the meeting ?
<tgm4883> I need to write some docs on the mythtv integration
<CrestedNewt> will do
<tgm4883> but I need to finish converting everything first
<bobweaver> thanks CrestedNewt
<bobweaver> anyone else got anything to says about doc's ?
<bootidsa> no
<bobweaver> cool
<bobweaver> Agenda for docs is now done ! yeah
<bobweaver> Agenda:  New Members Updates and Keeping people busy+happy
<bootidsa> I noted that Acer was mentioned on Target Platforms
<bobweaver> docs kinda help with this
<bobweaver> we *NEED* more Unity people esp nux people to help me
<bootidsa> Ican only help with Artwork, sorry.
<tgm4883> IIRC, there is no target platform other than x86/x86_64/ARM
<bobweaver> anyone know Unity 3d devs ?
<bootidsa> not well enough.
<jhodapp> bobweaver, yes :)
<bobweaver> can talk with them to put up with my bs ? get them to become new members ?
<bobweaver> cool jhodapp
<bobweaver> anyone else got ideas to bring in new members ?
<bobweaver> fbook g+ ect ?
<bootidsa> magazine ?
<bobweaver> spam the forums ?
<jhodapp> bobweaver, I think those are good methods, but having some cool defined tasks to do would help
<tgm4883> well besides social networking, I think we need to have a community type meeting
<CrestedNewt> don't spam - gets people backs up
<tgm4883> but I was going to bring that up during the meeting agenda item
<bobweaver> cool maybe we should come back to that ?
<tgm4883> sure
<bootidsa> Yes the google plus side of things is vacant .. and this where we could shine ..be happy to contribute .. whio does the group on G+ ?
<tgm4883> the ubuntu tv team ;)
<bootidsa> What is 'there' profile link on G+ ?
<tgm4883> https://plus.google.com/b/104659991254860976283/+UbuntuTV/posts
<bobweaver> I have admin rights to g+ most the team does if they do not then contact mhall
<bootidsa> I>@E> who do I send links to to celebrate Ubuntu TV ?
<bobweaver> or mailing list
<tgm4883> bootidsa, I think there is a better link, I just don't recall it right now :)
<tgm4883> mhall119 knows
<bobweaver> bootidsa,  yeah contact mhall119
<bobweaver> he is are community manager
<bootidsa> tgm4883, OK can you send it to porridge@trisquel.im when you have a moment ?
<tgm4883> https://plus.google.com/+UbuntuTV
<tgm4883> that is the better link :)
<bobweaver> cool well lets think about new member's and come back to that unless you have something that you are dieing to say
<bootidsa> Ok I'l just +Ubuntu TV in myb posts .. but an email would be sufficient really.
<bootidsa> not at mo.
<bobweaver> Agenda: new members done ?
<bobweaver> Agenda: Unity 3d :: Advancements and hold backs
<bootidsa> pass. brb.
<bobweaver> ok so I have made a new standalone mode that one can now use and frame is def comming togeather
<CrestedNewt> good job!
<bobweaver> people can test and also give me feed back though it is no where near done
<CrestedNewt> I can test as an EU if that helps
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  if you like after the meeting we can talk and this is something thta I would like to see in docs
<CrestedNewt> sure
<bobweaver> let me take a pic real quick
<jhodapp> nice bobweaver
<bobweaver> http://imagebin.org/237706
<bobweaver> as you can see there is now a binary that builds when unity 3d builds and one can launch that
<bobweaver> some of the hold backs that I am having is that I am just learning nux and having some of the layering is hard for me but I am learning
<bobweaver> stupid widgets
<bobweaver> :)
<bobweaver> but it is now in are trunk and one can use this
<bobweaver> I have not finshed by any means but there is least a start
<bobweaver> if anyone has questions about it feel free to email me or ping me on are channel
<bobweaver> I have not finshed channel view nor coverflow yet but got the binary there and it is now something that one can test
<jhodapp> bobweaver, have you ever chatted with any of the Nux developers in #ubuntu-unity before?
<bobweaver> but if you know Unity 3d devs esp NUX peps please send my way
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  I try
<bobweaver> gotten some help but not that many people know about NUX
<jhodapp> bobweaver, no, but certainly the people who know the most about it (because they created Nux) are in that room
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  I want to see if I can get jason to help me but cn never find him I should send him a email
<jhodapp> bobweaver, yeah, that's a good idea
<bobweaver> I asked the whole channel yesterday and today if they would show up for this
<jhodapp> bobweaver, it sounds like that's one of the best things to spend your time on for right now is getting a solid communication line open with the people who can help you with Nux
<bobweaver> but IDK if anyof them did
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  you should help me with that as you are can emply
<bobweaver> pretty plz that is :)
<jhodapp> bobweaver, I can certainly ping people for you when you can't get their attention
<bobweaver> thanks jhodapp  not sure if they take me for real yet + I ask dumg questions sometimes
<bobweaver> at any rate I will  put that UP on my list
<bobweaver> any one else got anything to say about Unity 3d or questions ?
<CrestedNewt> the only way of learning is by showing ones ignorance
<bobweaver> integration that is ^^
<jhodapp> bobweaver, no such thing as a dumb question (the only dumb one is the one not asked)
<CrestedNewt> jhodapp - well said
<bobweaver> I would also like to say that it is on raring :)
<tgm4883> no questions from me, I'll probably have some for you once I get the backend stuff to converted so we can test it
<CrestedNewt> nothing from me
<bobweaver> I am on raring so we are moving in the right direction which brings up new topic
<bobweaver> Agenda: Time-Line Due to the limited time that some of us have
<bobweaver> you all I am srry grinding the midnight oil on this project and I love it but not sure that this is going to be done in 5 months
<tgm4883> I think feature wise, timeline is up to the people doing the Unity 3D work (bobweaver)
<bobweaver> we might have to push things back a little but IDWT
<tgm4883> bobweaver, and feature wise, you only have until March 7th
<bobweaver> good point tgm4883  that is why I need some help
<bobweaver> I mean unity 3d has like 20 peps always working on it
<bobweaver> I have to keep up with that and I also have to add thing's
<bobweaver> like I spend more time (in the start) fixing unity and not even working on code
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - what if you just sat on a LTS release as the basic libs, that do not change?
<CrestedNewt> then you are not always chasing your tail
<bobweaver> took me a day of re-writing cmakelist files to get to config but I have gotten some help with that and am past that hurdle
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  that is a real real real real real good point
<bobweaver> and idea
<bobweaver> I for one love that idea that we will try to release a full version on next lts
<tgm4883> I still think something is wrong with how this this happening if Unity builds keep breaking
<tgm4883> but maybe it's just me being a Python dev
<tgm4883> jhodapp, ^
<bobweaver> everything up to that will be Mockup stuff
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  it is because *other*  libs are always changing
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - but if Unity is always changing, there is no solid foundation
<jhodapp> tgm4883, what's the issue exactly, I don't quite follow
<CrestedNewt> without a solid foundation, bobweaver can't move forwards
<tgm4883> jhodapp, bascially, things in Unity keep changing and causing bobweaver to have to redo work
<bobweaver> kinda ^^
<bobweaver> it was more that Unity would not build due to changes in libs
<bobweaver> but this has been fixed
<bobweaver> you know nux3 to nux 4
<bobweaver> libunity changing
<jhodapp> yes, that's a major change
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, meh, not necessarily true. Sure things in Unity are changing. But lets take it from my perspective (admittedly a Python one). I import another library in python and use one of it's functions. That library might change over time, but as long as it still returns values that I would expect (not changing from a list to a dict) then my code is fine
<jhodapp> there's 2 options there though...you can keep tracking the latest of all of these libs (which might be a good idea), or you can say we're targeting version x or each lib like unity and nux
<bobweaver> I mean every one of unityshell/plugins/*  needed new cmakelist file because it would not work
<bobweaver> not work = not installing and linking libs
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - I'm not a coder but was a problem and change manager for alarge international oild company looking after systems for europe
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - but i also understand where you are coming from
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  both good ideas and I am tracking all bugs and changes to both tunk and stagging but then I see that staging is now going to chang to something else and who knows whta changes are going to come with that or if them libs are eeven goinng to make it into main
<bobweaver> that is my concerns as I could only find libs in stagging to make this work due to nux 4
<bobweaver> and other libs
<bobweaver> and if stagging is changing to something else and what if compiz from stagging is not included into main then kahput
<jhodapp> bobweaver, you're talking about package staging, right?
<bobweaver> yeah the ppa
<bobweaver> sorry about that Unity stagging ppa is what I am talking about
<jhodapp> bobweaver, ok, popey might be able to give you insights into your uncertainty there
<tgm4883> jhodapp, bobweaver one of our previous discussions was a point in time when Unity wouldn't even build by itself (without bobweaver's additions)
<tgm4883> which seems bad IMO
<bobweaver> and was bad
<jhodapp> tgm4883, unity trunk wouldn't build?
<bobweaver> belive me
<tgm4883> jhodapp, yea
<tgm4883> so bobweaver says, I didn't try it ;)
<bobweaver> would not build because main(ubuntu ppa) unity  for raring is calling stuff from stagging . and it was a mess
<jhodapp> tgm4883, seems weird, a change usually won't get merged into trunk unless it passes the tests and the continuous integration build by QA
<bobweaver> like libs in main had not yet landed from stagging
<bobweaver> nux 4 compiz ect
<bobweaver> sence then I have changed the way that I am building this but once again I am not sure as to which one of the libs that Unity team is going to pick for there main
<bobweaver> but what hurt more was not just the libs
<tgm4883> I still think something is wrong here. From my point of view, the same issues would plague any Unity developer
<jhodapp> tgm4883, precisely
<bobweaver> it was the fact that cmakelist(s) needed to be re-wrote because they where erroroing out on config (cmake ../ -DCMAKE_INSTALL_.......)
<bobweaver> mainly plugins and makeing room for new binary for tv
<jhodapp> bobweaver, did you have anyone else try the same thing when it was failing just to confirm?
<bobweaver> you can look at change logs of branch to see what I had to do it is documented there
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  yeah
<tgm4883> to continue progress in this meeting, I move to put this item on hold and continue. Either coming back to this at the end of the meeting (time permitted) or continue this discussion in the #ubuntu-tv channel
<bobweaver> unity team said "that si what where are fixing right now "
<bobweaver> good idea tgm4883
<jhodapp> bobweaver, ok
<bobweaver> New Agenda : Meetings Pick a day and time for recurring weekly meetings
<tgm4883> #subtopic  Meetings Pick a day and time for recurring weekly meetings
<bobweaver> I like this time what do you all think about that ? is it good for you would sat be better ect
<tgm4883> I like this time
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  ?
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  ?
<CrestedNewt> I am flexible - some friday nights I'm out, some saturdays I'm out :D
<tgm4883> I don't like anything that gets into people's weekends
<bobweaver> that is a good point
<CrestedNewt> keep it to friday nights then?
<tgm4883> so mon - thurs might work better, but i'm in the US so it's friday morning for me :)
<CrestedNewt> I'm in the UK
<jhodapp> bobweaver, works for me
<bobweaver> lets wait for jhodapp  and his input. I wish that we could also get will to show up he is AWESOME
<CrestedNewt> so I'm on GMT anyway
<bobweaver> well then settled ever fri at this time
<CrestedNewt> kk
<bobweaver> if alright with you all
<bobweaver> #vote
<meetingology> Please vote on:
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bobweaver> +1
<CrestedNewt> +1
<bootidsa> +1
<tgm4883> +1
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I think you need votesrequired as well
<bobweaver> er I dont know how to use this bot lol
<bobweaver> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<bobweaver> lol
<tgm4883> next topic
<bobweaver> form-factor
<bobweaver> josephjamesmills would like to work on using different form factors but can not figure out on his own, maybe if Unity people show up
<tgm4883> or I forgot the thing I was going to bring up ;)
<tgm4883> I'll come back to it
<tgm4883> This seems similar to the other Unity 3D items
<bobweaver> well that is pretty much covered in getting me some friends that will put up with my bs and teach me about form-factor
<bobweaver> unity 3d team ^^
<bobweaver> I just need like 4 hours with a unity 3d dev to do a goolge hangout
<bobweaver> to teach me the stuff that I do not understand though I am RE unity 3d ok for the time being
<bobweaver> Next adgenda : from the wiki they are all covered . so if you got anything to add now would be the time
<tgm4883> community meetings
<tgm4883> I think the last meeting of the month should be a community meeting, where people could show up and ask any questions they have
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  what do you mean ?
<tgm4883> hopefully this would get more people involved
<bobweaver> that is a great great great IDEA !!!!
<tgm4883> also, we wouldn't have to advertise every meeting every week every where, just the last meeting
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - that sounds like a great idea - but it needs to be focused
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, focused on what?
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  on are channel or should we make a channel ?  #ubuntu-tc-community-meetup or whatever
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - sometimes at these types of meetings some ppl try and take over for their point only
<bobweaver> we can regulate that CrestedNewt
<tgm4883> bobweaver, on this channel
<CrestedNewt> ok
<bobweaver> lol tgm4883
<tgm4883> bobweaver, it would just take the place of our normal meeting
<bobweaver> on this channel ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, isn't that where our normal weekly meeting will be?
<bootidsa> you advertis it on Google Plus too !
<bobweaver> I will make youtube video
<bobweaver> and put on g+ about this ?
<bootidsa> yep.
<tgm4883> yea the idea would be for us to advertise it on all social media, website, etc
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  that is a great idea
<tgm4883> and since it's once a month, we wouldn't be spamming everyone all the time
<bobweaver> so plush
<bootidsa> netsplit !
<bobweaver> I would like to set up a community found that is for getting us "team members" hardware
<bobweaver> how can we do that ?
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  that is more question for you ^^
<bobweaver> I think
<tgm4883> bobweaver, do we need that?
<bobweaver> I do
<tgm4883> what kinda hardware?
<tgm4883> kind of*
<bobweaver> armel boards
<tgm4883> ah
<bootidsa> I have a spare Revo .. ?
<jhodapp> bobweaver, it's a good question, but I'm with tgm4883...what's wrong with using your PC?
<bobweaver> even if was remote at canonical office
<tgm4883>  jhodapp I think it's for ARM stuff
<tgm4883> which I don't think he can test on a normal PC
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  I was thinking that this most likly would be on arm and I can not afford anything
<jhodapp> tgm4883, yes, but why do you need to run on ARM today?
<bobweaver> I am super super super poor
<tgm4883> specifically with how usable it is on ARM
<CrestedNewt> I can try and talk to ARM as their head office is only about 45 mins away from me
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, I don't think ARM makes any hardware?
<bobweaver> not today but raising money for devs can take time
<jhodapp> tgm4883, they make reference boards
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - no they don't but they have influence as the manufacturers basically build under license
<tgm4883> IMO, it needs to be off the shelf hardware
<CrestedNewt> of their tech
<bobweaver> listen I do not even want a board shiped to house I am just going to need stuff to test code on and run valgrind
<CrestedNewt> I'm with tgm4883 - lets get it out as a STB first - make other big brands sit up and take notice
<bobweaver> I can chroot and make virtual but that is not a real test
<tgm4883> bobweaver, jhodapp perhaps it's something that the canoncal testing lab can do
<bobweaver> I want to make sure that my code runs on arm and is not leaky
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, I completely disagree with that, and that isn't our target anyway
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - ok
<jhodapp> but to bobweaver's point, considering how to get hardware today isn't a bad idea
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, it's much easier to work with something open, rather than hack a tivo to run it on
<jhodapp> maybe we can ask for some community donations
<bobweaver> Like at next UDS if we could have boards to test valfrind reports
<bootidsa> kickstarter !
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - agreed - I'm looking at mounting on the back of a screen with HW readily available
<bobweaver> IDK all I know is that I can not afford to by any because I have to feed my dog
<bobweaver> that is how poor I am
<jhodapp> bobweaver, nobody is asking you to buy one, use your PC for now
<bobweaver> bottom line is this. there is no why what so ever that I can afford anything like this and if it is going to go to skunkworks then what ?
<bobweaver> It was just a idea
<bootidsa> here's my G+ if anyone wants to hangout or follow me https://plus.google.com/103093000923989045518
<bobweaver> ok any dire things to cover ?
<tgm4883> nope
<cm-t> thanks bootidsa && hi *
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - I'm with tgm4883 that it should only be off the shelf stuff. At the end of the day, if Ubuntu will run on it, Ubuntu-TV should also run on it
<bobweaver> +1
<tgm4883> +1
<bobweaver> lets take this to are channel
<bobweaver> #end meeting
<tgm4883> our*
<bobweaver> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 30 19:05:06 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-18.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-30-18.03.html
<bootidsa> nice meeting .. felt we hoit a wall about getting hardware, when I mentioned kickstarting a campaign.
<bootidsa> **hit
<bobweaver> thanks for showing up everyone
<bobweaver> are channel is #ubuntu-tv
<YoBoY> thanks bobweaver and everyone :)
<jhodapp> thanks guys, good meeting
 * cm-t_ was fighting with connexionâ¦
<bobweaver> ping mhall119,  when ever you get chance . its about updating fridge and what not to have meetings ever fri @ 1pm are time . and the last friday of the month is for people that have questions about Ubuntu tv they can ask then . I would mess it up if I tried to convert time like that. a minus of being dyslexic . Thanks
<rglastra> telnet xmlapi.paypal.com 80
<rglastra> sorry.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-01
<bootinfdsds> Hi Peeps Anyone wanna hangout this morning ? https://diasp.eu/posts/738249
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-02
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, hey
<ajmitch> hello again
<coolbhavi> seems like quadrispro cant make it
<coolbhavi> #startmeeting ubuntu arb meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Dec  2 07:59:19 2012 UTC.  The chair is coolbhavi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu arb meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<ajmitch> yep, I have it open
<ajmitch> it's been awhile since the last meeting & the group has shrunk a little bit, not sure how relevant old action items are
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, yes. So there are a couple of real burning issues: 1) the review process almost seems to be slowed down 2) the dev's who have submitted their packages as a part of app developer showdown are really angry
<ajmitch> yes, I'm sorry that I haven't been doing a lot on the queue lately, I'm guessing that we've had 0 interest from other ubuntu developers to look over packages
<coolbhavi> ajmitch,  thats perfectly fine :-) any thoughts on how to keep the reviews rolling over until we have the new arb process in place?
 * ajmitch has been trying to look at tools more than the queue lately, but hasn't got much to show
<ajmitch> there's no easy way to get the reviews done unless we just do them
<ajmitch> even if I get you a queue that has lintian/licensecheck run & builds packages automatically, there's still a fair bit of manual work to do
 * coolbhavi too is concentrating on getting arb profile into lintian so we can get another app review week going
<ajmitch> that'll help a bit
<ajmitch> most of the work items I have from UDS are related to tools like this
<coolbhavi> any thoughts of about getting the queue closed for sometime (as in a freeze period) and concentrate on clearing the queue
<coolbhavi> for some time?
<coolbhavi> would that help?
<ajmitch> we don't have a large number of new submissions, I think closing the queue could be seen fairly negatively
<ajmitch> then again, it's not like we could make the reputation much worse :)
<coolbhavi> hmm agreed it has negatives but the queue has around 100+ apps I believe
<ajmitch> we did talk about this at UDS & considering closing the queue to be a bad idea
<ajmitch> do you think we can just pick through the queue for packages that are 99% ready & get those in?
<ajmitch> I'll try & get some of this automation in place asap so that we can see what's low-hanging fruit
<coolbhavi> yes those in pending review and review in progress especially ones from app-developer-showdown might help
<ajmitch> any ideas on convincing people that they should help out? :)
<ajmitch> it's been a struggle since the ARB was introduced, so I'm not optimistic
<coolbhavi> I'll add a action item for both then to identify packages which are already in shape
<coolbhavi> yes but as you said it was a struggle as it requires some amount of motivation and free time
<ajmitch> and for people to consider extras.u.c to be worthwhile
<ajmitch> for most developers, new packages are a low priority anyway
<coolbhavi> +1 added to that the queue is not so public facing
<coolbhavi> #action ajmitch and coolbhavi to scout for some low hanging fruits in the queue to help clear the queue
<meetingology> ACTION: ajmitch and coolbhavi to scout for some low hanging fruits in the queue to help clear the queue
<coolbhavi> do you think a new round of recruitment can help in this regard?
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, ^^
<ajmitch> maybe a little bit, but we haven't really had anyone interested despite recent mails to the list about the process
<coolbhavi> yes. but considering a 7 member team will be more effective than a 3 member team right now it might help
<ajmitch> sure, if you can get 4 more people to step forward & commit
<coolbhavi> I'll bring this up on the list then for discussion
<coolbhavi> #action coolbhavi to mail the arb list about a new round of recruitment
<meetingology> ACTION: coolbhavi to mail the arb list about a new round of recruitment
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> has the TB approved the process change?
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, the other two points were: still we have not got any formal signoff from the TB regarding new arb process and we were not able to meet frequently in the recent past
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, can you help regarding reaching out to the TB for a formal approval?
<ajmitch> yes, that's why I asked about the TB signoff, I know that it was mentioned in a TB meeting
<ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-November/001437.html is the last action on the TB list
<ajmitch> I'll check & see if they want to approve it or if we just go with it
<coolbhavi> great!
<ajmitch> I suspect they'll be fine with us just going ahead, there were no objections on the list
<coolbhavi> yes agreed but a formal signoff would be a good go ahead signal for us to atleast follow up on ubuntu-devel
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> so the other thing is more regular meetings
<coolbhavi> I'll mark down an action for this
<coolbhavi> #action ajmitch to check with the TB for approval of new arb process
<meetingology> ACTION: ajmitch to check with the TB for approval of new arb process
<coolbhavi> regarding meetings
<coolbhavi> how about having meetings on sunday this time as long as a new recruitment run goes into pace?
<ajmitch> fine by me
<coolbhavi> great then! ll catch up with alessio too regarding this.
<ajmitch> ok, hopefully he can make it to the next one
<ajmitch> I'm guessing once a month is enough?
<coolbhavi> right. but twice in a month for next couple of months maybe wont harm as it enables us to track the queue better I think. But then its your choice :)
<ajmitch> christmas holidays are coming up, so twice a month will be pushing it
<coolbhavi> :) fine then!
<coolbhavi> any other things up for discussion?
<ajmitch> I think that's about it
<coolbhavi> thanks a lot ajmitch for coming in :) you are really one of the arb's rockstars :)
<ajmitch> no, not really :P
<coolbhavi> atleast you were one of those guys who formed the arb :) thanks a lot again!
<coolbhavi> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Dec  2 08:43:29 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-02-07.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-02-07.59.html
<ajmitch> thanks for chairing, I'll try & get some stuff together soon to help with reviews
<ajmitch> for now, I'm out, see you round
<coolbhavi> no mention :-) ciao
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-25
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> o/
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 25 16:45:24 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to Thomas Ward (teward) provided debdiffs for precise-saucy for nginx (LP: #1253691)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1253691 in nginx (Ubuntu Trusty) "Specially crafted request URI permits security restriction bypass [CVE-2013-4547]" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253691
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I have a very short week this week. I am working today and tomorrow
<jdstrand> I'm on triage
<jdstrand> I'm working on an update for keystone which should go out today
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I'll take over triage for the rest of the week
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks :)
<jdstrand> and I need to get the work items in shape for this cycle. I figure I'll work with you guys on that when I have something to review
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I have some jpeg updates to write some test scripts for
<mdeslaur> and am working on merging ruby and uploading some packages in an attempt to get ruby1.8 demoted from main
<mdeslaur> since we now have three rubys in main, and I don't want that for a 5-year supported lts
<jdstrand> what's the story with puppet there?
<jdstrand> (and yes, great idea)
<mdeslaur> hrm, good question
<jdstrand> well, worht looking at. I don't mean to derail the meeting
<mdeslaur> looks like it's using whatever ruby is default instead of 1.8
<mdeslaur> so 1.9.1 presumably
<mdeslaur> it didn't show up on my list of reverse depends
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> ah, perfect
<mdeslaur> pending that, I'll be going down the cve list, as usual
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<mdeslaur> (if you're here...)
<jdstrand> that was the only thing I could think of otoh that might be weird. glad it isn't an issue at all :)
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor again this week
<sbeattie> I'll be working on testing improvements as well as some parser fixes/improvements
<sbeattie> Which is pretty much it for me.
<jdstrand> is that for IPC?
<sbeattie> the testing stuff, yes. The parser bits, no.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: I think you're up.
<tyhicks> I have a very short week this week
<tyhicks> I'm only working today
<tyhicks> Right now, I'm looking into some apparmor_parser oddness
<tyhicks> It segfaults if I change AA_DBUS_EAVESDROP from (1 << 5) to (1 << 7)
<tyhicks> That shouldn't happen and makes me think there's a bigger bug lurking somewhere
<tyhicks> I'll spend a little more time on that
<tyhicks> Then I'm going to switch to the yama on touch work items
<tyhicks> (I haven't been able to start on them yet)
<jdstrand> tyhicks: I didn't think having a week shorter than mine was possible :)
<tyhicks> jdstrand: beat ya :)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> bunch of slackers :)
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<sbeattie> tyhicks: oh hrm, is that with the patch set you submitted?
<tyhicks> sbeattie: yep
 * jjohansen is working on apparmor ipc again this week.
<jjohansen> I need to coordinate with sbeattie on some testing and see if I can't get him a new kernel
<sbeattie> +1
<jdstrand> jjohansen(, sbeattie): can you give a brief update on IPC (eg, are we still on track for ppa this month, archive, next, etc)?
<jjohansen> jdstrand: we are running behind, since this week is the last week of the month. PPA this month might not happen, if not this week though hopefully next
<jdstrand> jjohansen: ok, well, please don't feel like you have to work through the holiday
<jjohansen> who me?
<jjohansen> never
<jjohansen> :)
<jdstrand> jjohansen: was there anything on goldfish?
<jdstrand> s/thing/ update/
<jjohansen> oh, I suppose I need to send the patch to the kernel team today, and make sure, the apparmor=0 work around is reverted once the kernel rolls out
<jdstrand> ah, so you found the problem? what was it?
<jjohansen> it was that patch from last week, the #ifdef SMP
<jjohansen> one
<jdstrand> oh, interesting. I thought that was something else
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> (that but number was old iirc)
<jdstrand> anyhoo, nice! :)
<jjohansen> jdstrand: well there was a bug against the saucy kernel from some guy doing self compiled kernels
<jjohansen> that was the old bug number, same bug really
<jjohansen> sarnold: your up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, also a short week, off thursday and friday; I have a merge of libgcrypt11 to work on, a new MIR audit, and -maybe- ask for a CVE for an already-known issue I discovered while working on a MIR audit last week
<sarnold> it'd be wonderful to make some further dents in the apparmor patches that are still unreviewed, I know there's several of them left..
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson you're up :)
<chrisccoulson> yoyo
<chrisccoulson> the oxide packaging is almost done now. just waiting on https://code.launchpad.net/~osomon/oxide/initial-build-fixes/+merge/195076, which is basically the last blocker
<chrisccoulson> i should have it in a PPA after that :)
<chrisccoulson> this week, i'm focusing on getting bug 1214049 finished
<ubottu> bug 1214049 in Oxide "Support accelerated compositing" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1214049
<mdeslaur> \o/
<sarnold> wow :)
<chrisccoulson> oSoMoN has been contributing some fixes as well now
<sarnold> \o/ :D
<chrisccoulson> so we got http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk/revision/257 and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk/revision/256 last week
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: nice! :)
<chrisccoulson> oh, i had the joy of learning how to use bzrlib last week too
<chrisccoulson> that wasn't fun ;)
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/network-manager-openvpn.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/turba2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smsclient.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/djbdns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/feh.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> djbdns? o_O I'm shocked :)
<jdstrand> the CVEs are old. possibly needs more triage
<sbeattie> well, the package version we ship hasn't changed since precise, either.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 25 17:15:24 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-25-16.45.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-25-16.45.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<kees> time for ubuntu tech board meeting! oh wait... no tech board.
<mdeslaur> heh
<genii> Hm.
<stgraber> haha, yeah, my phone is still telling me I
<stgraber> *I'm supposed to have a meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-26
<arosales> Hello
<arosales> I'll be chairing today's Server team meeting
<smoser> o./
<adam_g> o/
 * arosales grabs the commands
<roaksoax> o/
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 26 16:02:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> No actions from previous meeting
<arosales> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> we have an alpha coming up I think . . .
<arosales> Dec 19th
<arosales> opt in for flavors
<arosales> smoser, jamespage is server opting in?
 * arosales doesn't see utlemming for cloud image confirmation
<jamespage> as a core flavor we don't normally opt in - I'm happy to stick with that for alpha1
<arosales> jamespage, ack
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> jamespage, well, i like to create cloud images.
<arosales> smoser, I think cloud images has done an alpha in the past .  . .
<smoser> i'd like for us to opt in for alpha1 cloud images, with some actual targets.
<jamespage> sure
<smoser> the seed-review and gpt
<smoser> jamespage, have you done a seed-review email ?
<jamespage> smoser, urgh - not yet
<arosales> #action smoser sync with utlemming on building cloud images for alpha 1, targets = seed-review, gpt
<meetingology> ACTION: smoser sync with utlemming on building cloud images for alpha 1, targets = seed-review, gpt
<jamespage> arosales, please action me todo that asap
<arosales> will do
<arosales> #action jamespage do seed-review email
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage do seed-review email
<arosales> onto bugs :-)
<arosales> got two high @ http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<arosales> no critical
<arosales> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1243762
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1243762 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "[MIR] juju-core, golang" [High,Confirmed]
<jamespage> that will stick on the report until either we decide not to or it gets in main
<arosales> jamespage, ok, thanks
<arosales> bug 1062336
<ubottu> bug 1062336 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova-compute expects libvirtd group" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1062336
<arosales> zul ^
<rbasak> We should perhaps track bug 1248283, since at the moment it seems to affect all MAAS/juju on Saucy, and presumably Trusty too. I don't know how much this needs to be tracked by us as opposed to juju upstream, though.
<ubottu> bug 1248283 in juju-core "Juju deploy of Charm in MAAS fails because dbus fails" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1248283
<arosales> nevermind jamespage looks like your marked won't fix
<jamespage> zul, that will get fixed up under the kvm packaging review
<zul> rbasak:  its been removed in trusty
<rbasak> zul: what's been removed exactly?
<zul> arosales: the xcp stuff has been removed in nova
<zul> rbasak:  sorry not you :)
<arosales> zul, thanks
<arosales> rbasak, you are referring to https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1248283
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1248283 in juju-core "Juju deploy of Charm in MAAS fails because dbus fails" [High,Triaged]
<rbasak> Yes
<arosales> good one to track
<arosales> jamespage, which team to we add to get in on the bug tracking list?
<arosales> ~ubuntu-server ?
<arosales> smoser, ^
<jamespage> no - dbus should not be on the server list
<jamespage> raise a task for juju-core - I think that will do it
<smoser> there is a task for juju-core thre.
<arosales> juju-core has a task
<arosales> while we work on that is there any other bugs we want to cover?
<jamespage> juju-core in Ubuntu
<arosales> there are a few other mediums and lows
<jamespage> not upstream
<rbasak> I think you might need a packaging task against a package that ~ubuntu-server subscribes to that also has a Trusty task.
<rbasak> I'm not sure this is a good way to do it, mind.
<arosales> jamespage, ah ok
<jamespage> rbasak, is the bug in dbus?
<rbasak> Debatable. I'd say the primary bug is in juju-core.
<rbasak> (or perhaps the MAAS provider in juju if that's separate)
<arosales> rbasak, could you add a task for juju-core in Ubuntu?
<rbasak> dbus would ideally not fail, and ideally log a message explaining what happens when it does.
<rbasak> But juju should not try to restart networking. It doesn't need to do that anyway.
<jamespage> rbasak, raise a distro bug task for Ubuntu and target to trusty
<jamespage> so we can track it
<rbasak> ack
<arosales> rbasak, thanks
<arosales> any other bugs we should cover
<rbasak> Done. Importance?
<arosales> got the highs and critical ones done @ http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<rbasak> I'll say Triaged/High.
<arosales> rbasak, thanks for brining in one we needed to track too
<arosales> ok we covered those
<arosales> not the others on the list are openstack
<arosales> less websockify
<arosales> moving on
<arosales> #subtopic Blueprints
<arosales> jamespage, to my failing did you create a topic bp?
<jamespage> yes
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<arosales> ah and you must have updated the notes
<arosales> well done -- thank you
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<arosales> hmm not loading for me atm
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-t-servercloud-overview
<arosales> working for others?
<arosales> hmm http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/ looks to may need a kick
<jamespage> arosales, no
 * arosales doesn't see any topic BPs there
<jamespage> arosales, gaughen: we need to go through all blueprints and priortize and accept for trusty
<jamespage> so as its only UDS + 2 days really
<arosales> #action jamespage, gaughen review blueprints and accept for trusty
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage, gaughen review blueprints and accept for trusty
<gaughen> okay
<smoser> yeah.
<jamespage> can respectfully suggest that everyone write up their blueprints from last week by thursday
<jamespage> using the blueprint spec
<jamespage> and mark 'Pending Approval'
<arosales> #action gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there
<arosales> gaughen, I hope you don't mind that action
<jamespage> then smoser, gaughen and I will know which ones to review
<arosales> gaughen, https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-work-items-tracker/+filebug
<arosales> gaughen, ping me if you have any questions
<jamespage> so I guess for folks in the US that means be end of wednesday
<jamespage> ....
<jamespage> sorry
<gaughen> nope don't mind but i will have questions :-)
<jamespage> actually - this makes no sense
<arosales> #action all: write up blueprints, and have them ready for review by November 28
<meetingology> ACTION: all: write up blueprints, and have them ready for review by November 28
<jamespage> end of week - then we can review early next week
<smoser> end of week.
<smoser> (which may be in a few hours for some US folk)
<arosales> # all write up bluerprints, using blueprint spec, mark 'pending approval', and have complete by November 29
<arosales> any other BP topics?
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<arosales> caribou any bugs to bring up here that we didn't already cover?
 * arosales doesn't see caribou online atm
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> No updates from us,
<arosales> psivaa, ok thanks
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<arosales> smb any updates?
 * arosales doesn't seem smb here atm
<arosales> any folks from kernel
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> No updates from me. Any questions?
<arosales> any questions for rbasak ?
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> we had a lot of events we just came back from
<arosales> ODS, uVDS, RubyConf, AWS re:Invent
<arosales> I don't know of any upcoming in the next week
<arosales> any other folks have any events to bring up here?
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> any other agenda items?
<arosales> going once
<arosales> twice
<arosales> thrice
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<arosales> NEXT MEETING: Tuesday 2013-12-03 at 1600 UTC
<arosales> Thanks for joining the ubuntu server team meeting!
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 26 16:32:50 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-26-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-26-16.02.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 26 17:00:29 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<rtg> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<cking> o/
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> o/
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> 2 secs
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> While marginally useful for tracking work items in the past, the above
<ogasawara> links are completely useless at the moment.  I have manually reviewed
<ogasawara> work items from the core-1311-kernel and core-1311-hwe-plans blueprints.
<ogasawara> However, beyond those two, I'm oblivious to what other work our team or
<ogasawara> individuals were signed up for.
<ogasawara> || apw   || core-1311-kernel    || 1 work ite ||
<ogasawara> || cking || core-1311-kernel    || 2 work item ||
<ogasawara> || rtg   || core-1311-hwe-plans || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> For those unaware, the ubuntu-trusty git repo is open and available at:
<ogasawara> git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-trusty.git .  The master branch is
<ogasawara> currently tracking the latest 3.12.1 upstream stable kernel while the
<ogasawara> unstable branch has most recently been rebased to v3.13-rc1.  We shall
<ogasawara> move our master branch to track v3.13 after some baking.  We will also
<ogasawara> upload to the archive when it's ready.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 12 - 12.04.4 Kernel Freeze (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 23 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~8 weeks away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 19 - Alpha 1 (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~ 8 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Regression Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Regression Testing
<bjf>   * Quantal - Regression Testing
<bjf>   *  Raring - Regression Testing
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Regression Testing
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 26 17:04:58 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-26-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-26-17.00.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-30
<AlanBell> evening all
<Pici> g'afternoon
 * AlanBell pops back to the kitchen to make coffee for everyone
<MooDoo> 2 sugars please :)
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC Council Nominations
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Nov 30 20:02:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Nominations Meeting | Current topic:
<IdleOne> o/
<Pici> \o
<IdleOne> M
<IdleOne> C
<IdleOne> A
<topyli> :/
<Tm_T> IdleOne: cruel you
<IdleOne> song stuck in your head now :)
<AlanBell> :)
<AlanBell> so, having given people a few minutes to wake up/pour coffee/beer/whatever who is here?
<Myrtti> meh
<IdleOne> o/
<topyli> o/
<Pici> \o
<Flannel> ~~~o/~~~
<Tm_T> present
<IdleOne> Throw your hands in the air and wave'em like you just don't care
<Myrtti> YOU ARE CARING I KNOW
<IdleOne> I am :/
<Fuchs> was dis?
<AlanBell> so, the subject of this meeting is the IRC Council nominations, we are following the process outlined here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<AlanBell> nominations we know about so far are . . .
<AlanBell> Tm_T and Pici
<Tm_T> Pici: rock on
<AlanBell> and if anyone else would like to nominate themselves now is the time to do it
<Fuchs> do you actually need more or do you have enough?
<Fuchs> (pondering, hence asking)
<AlanBell> well we should have 5
 * AlanBell nominates himself
<AlanBell> now we have 3
<Tm_T> Fuchs: there's no "enough"
<topyli> good going! :)
<IdleOne> so, topyli and funkyhat are not running for another term?
<topyli> not me at least
<Pici> Real life things :/
<AlanBell> the idea is we collect lots of nominations and put them forward to the CC who will set up the process for selecting 5 of them
<IdleOne> real life things are good, hopefully.
<AlanBell> so if we don't make it to 5 that is a bit inconvenient, but not unheard of, last time there were 4 initially
 * Fuchs waits for now, then
<Pici> hm
 * IdleOne nominates self
<AlanBell> yay \o/
<Pici> woo
<IdleOne> what the hell, might as well give you folks a run for your money
<topyli> yes!
<Tm_T> IdleOne: good boy
<IdleOne> Fuchs: you should also
<Fuchs> IdleOne: it would be a bit many hats to wear then  (loco op, ubuntuusers GC, IRCC) so I'd only do it if you desperately need more
<Pici> undstandable
 * AlanBell nudges Myrtti a bit
<Myrtti> no
<IdleOne> cmon Myrtti :)
<Fuchs> aw :(  Myrtti is awesome
 * IdleOne nudges Flannel 
<IdleOne> Fuchs: very understandable
<Flannel> Sounds like we should've had this goad-people meeting earlier to the deadline, if our selection process is "whoever is here and breathing"
<Flannel> IdleOne: If I accept your nomination, does that make six or five?
<AlanBell> Flannel: yeah, we did, last week
<IdleOne> not trying to goad you sir, just think you would be good for the position.
<AlanBell> this is a followup goad
<IdleOne> Flannel: I believe it would be 5
<Flannel> AlanBell: Ah, well, I missed it.  Was there an email?  "Come show up! Be volunteered!"
<Pici> Lets stop goading people, its their own decision to nominate themselves.
<Flannel> IdleOne: I will accept your nomination, but only if that makes six people.  So if that was only five, you'll need to find one more :)
<IdleOne> I'm assuming AlanBell is keeping track
<Pici> After all, this is a 2 year commitment.
<Flannel> IdleOne: Think of it as a matching contribution :)
<IdleOne> well, it seems we can't shame anyone else now :(
<AlanBell> so far I see Pici Tm_T AlanBell IdleOne Flannel
<IdleOne> Flannel: Please confirm yourself so I don't feel like I forced you into accepting
<IdleOne> *the nomination
<Flannel> I still feel that we should seek out one or two more.  It's not much of a confirmation/vote if barely have the minimum number.
<Flannel> AlanBell: What are the requirements for a person serving?
<Tm_T> be ubuntu member
<Fuchs> Flannel: ubuntu IRC membership, being dedicated to IRC, having a bit or IRC knowledge, listet all at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<Fuchs> (under IRC Council Charter, 4th point)
<AlanBell> Flannel: yeah, basically Ubuntu Membership and wanting to do it really
<AlanBell> nominations are open to the end of November, so still a few hours left :)
<Flannel> right, operator status not required.
<AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2013-November/001623.html set out the dates
<AlanBell> Flannel: nope, not required to be an Op
<Flannel> So, with this window, let me officially state this then: I will only accept nomination if we find at least one more (hopefully more!) additional people who accept nomination.
<Tm_T> would be good to have non-ops in council too infact
<Flannel> Not that I wish to be difficult, just that I wish for a vote that's more meaningful than "vote for five of these five people!" when it comes time for that.
<AlanBell> Flannel: yeah, I am keen on there being a vote too
<Fuchs> so basically you just need to find one who nobody will vote for anyway, then take Flannel ;)
<Flannel> Lets have everyone take a homework assignment then, over the next N hours (how many? what timezone?), talk to folks about the IRCC, what it does, why it's important, and see if they're interested.
<AlanBell> so I didn't specify a timezone, we normally use UTC, but it isn't a particularly hard deadline, we said "November" and I would be fine with that meaning that we send the list to the CC at an unspecified time on Monday with all nominations to that point
<Pici> Sounds fine to me
<AlanBell> the IRCC will prepare an email with the names, links to wiki pages and launchpad pages and any comments we may have about the nominations
<IdleOne> Do I need to make a special page for this?
<IdleOne> wiki page that is
<Flannel> IdleOne: At least a section.
<IdleOne> let me see if I remember my wiki all-in-one password
<Flannel> IdleOne: I think the wiki uses launchpad now.
<AlanBell> no need for a special page or section, just maybe take a look over the existing stuff and update if required
<AlanBell> maybe add a note saying you are nominating yourself for the IRCC
<Pici> And testimonials, if you like.
<IdleOne> will do
<AlanBell> so, thanks very much all for attending this meeting, and thanks to those who have nominated themselves, lets close this for now, further nominations will continue to be accepted, just let a member of the current IRCC know you want to put yourself forward by email or IRC or carrier pigeon
<IdleOne> Thank you.
<AlanBell> at some point on Monday the nominations we know about at that time will be passed on to the CC - we won't announce the time of that in advance, so no last second nominations will work :)
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Nov 30 20:43:51 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-30-20.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-30-20.02.html
<Flannel> If you're waiting for the last second, this is the last second already!
<Fuchs> I'll forward it to the ubuntuusers people, AlanBell. Where should they poke exactly? (E-Mail address)
<AlanBell> Fuchs: irc-council@lists.ubuntu.com or just ping one of us on IRC
<Fuchs> thanks
<IdleOne> wiki slow to login for others?
<TheLordOfTime> IdleOne: a tad, yes.
<IdleOne> nevermind
<TheLordOfTime> (it's slow for me here right now)
<IdleOne> ah, so it wasn't just me
<IdleOne> thanks TheLordOfTime
<TheLordOfTime> IdleOne: just finally kicked into gear and logged in, but i thought the system was gonna timeout on me
<TheLordOfTime> (so no, i don't think its just you)
<hggdh> IdleOne: ing
<hggdh> er, actually, it should have been a *p*ing. Keyboard ate the 'p'
<IdleOne> hggdh: ong
<hggdh> heh
<IdleOne> :)
<hggdh> IdleOne: if you still need another one to self-nominate, I can do it.
<IdleOne> AlanBell: ^
<IdleOne> hggdh: yay!
<AlanBell> \o/
<AlanBell> thanks hggdh, I will add you to the list
<hggdh> OK. mail to ubuntu-irc?
<IdleOne> no need, you just nominated yourself
<hggdh> anyway, already sent :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-01
<elfy> who's here from the FC - other than me
<coffeecat> o/
<Iowan> o/
<cariboo907> o/
<elfy> cool
<sefsef> :)
<caboose885> o/
<caboose885> ooops
<caboose885> I'm not FC, just a looker
<elfy> who's going to try and run meetbot this time then
<Iowan> who are the co-chairs? ;)
<elfy> I think I took my name off that :p
<elfy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Dec  1 20:07:01 2013 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<elfy> #chair elfy cariboo907 coffeecat Iowan sefsef
<meetingology> Current chairs: Iowan cariboo907 coffeecat elfy sefsef
<Iowan> HEY!
<elfy> there's probably a command for agenda - but I don't know it - so agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<elfy> #topic Discourse and LoCo forums
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Discourse and LoCo forums
<elfy> so - basically this is just a catch up unless anyone's got anything to say
<cariboo907> THings seem to be going pretty well with the changeover
<sefsef> i agree cariboo
<elfy> discourse has gone to prod - some categories are up and live
<elfy> where I've been in contact with the LoCo point of contact I've gone ahead and closed forum area
<elfy> you've all seen I hope the mails I sent - the only thing that I'm concerned with is making sure that the actual LoCo contact is the one aasking
<elfy> if no-one's got any objections to that I'll carry on driving that for us
<Iowan> no objections here
<sefsef> no objections either
<cariboo907> Can we get the loco council to make sure that the contact has the right credentials before they ask?
<Iowan> vote it  if you wish
<elfy> cariboo907: I don't see any reason why we can't
<elfy> I'm in contact with one of them via xubuntu
<elfy> Iowan: not sure there's anything we need to vote on here :)
<cariboo907> that would make it a bit easier for us, so you or one of us doesn't have to go looking to see who they are
<Iowan> (ine w/ me!)
<Iowan> *Fine
<elfy> ok
<elfy> #info elfy to liase with LoCo Council as required
<cariboo907> Iowan,  if you want to vote, the command is # vote without the space
<cariboo907> then the subject :)
<elfy> ok - any objections to moving on?
<Iowan>  none here.
<cariboo907> nope, I need to get to bed soon :)
<sefsef> none
<coffeecat> no
<elfy> #topic Restarting Unanswered Threads team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Restarting Unanswered Threads team
<elfy> caboose885: ok - floor's yours now - you can assume that we've seen the information you put there for us
<cariboo907> I think it's a great idea
<elfy> what do you need from us?
<elfy> caboose885: ping ;)
<caboose885> I would ned UA subforum reopened and most likely moderator control of the area
<elfy> ok
<caboose885> I also would like to have OP to the IRC channel
<elfy> and we can leave you to get on with it and just call if we're needed for anything?
<caboose885> correct
<elfy> well IRC is nothing to do with us, though I still appear to have voice in the channel and possibly op status - we can look at that later
<caboose885> I will be as independent as possible but I will reach out for help if I need it
<elfy> right
<caboose885> IRC is probably lowest priority right now
<elfy> well I for one think it's a great idea as well
<caboose885> I think the main areas will be the wiki and forum
<elfy> #voters elfy cariboo907 coffeecat Iowan sefsef
<meetingology> Current voters: Iowan cariboo907 coffeecat elfy sefsef
<cariboo907> +1
<Iowan> +1
<coffeecat> +1
<elfy> lol
<caboose885> I don't really have anything else to add, assuming everone has been keeping up with the thread and my PDF
<sefsef> +1
<caboose885> :)
<elfy> #vote Reopen Unanswered Threads forum, move forum to a suitable home, give caboose885 sub forum mod status
<meetingology> Please vote on: Reopen Unanswered Threads forum, move forum to a suitable home, give caboose885 sub forum mod status
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<elfy> ok - now we've got something to vote on we can vote :)
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<sefsef> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sefsef
<elfy> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Reopen Unanswered Threads forum, move forum to a suitable home, give caboose885 sub forum mod status
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> ok so thats done
<caboose885> \o/
<elfy> #topic Fixed Agenda items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Fixed Agenda items
<elfy> shall we do this now - or shall we just sort them out as we normally do?
<Iowan> sort - (or assign s.fox)
<elfy> :)
<sefsef> sort
<coffeecat> :)
<cariboo907> about the only thing that needs to be looked after is the monthly report
<elfy> ok team report - any takers for that
<Iowan> well...
<elfy> is that a yea I'll do it :p
<Iowan> been awhile since I (messed it up)
<Iowan> so... yeah
<Iowan> I'll try it again.
<elfy> #info Iowan to create monthly report
<elfy> what about next meeting - shall we set it now? maybe 5th Jan - we can always undo it later if necessary
<sefsef> sure
<coffeecat> +1
<cariboo907> sounds good to me
<Iowan> OK here (so far)
<elfy> #vote Set next meeting for 5th Jan @ 20:00UTC
<meetingology> Please vote on: Set next meeting for 5th Jan @ 20:00UTC
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<cariboo907> 1
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<sefsef> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sefsef
<elfy> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Set next meeting for 5th Jan @ 20:00UTC
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elfy> ok - anything else from anyone?
<caboose885> will you like a followup from me during that meeting?
<elfy> good call
<elfy> #info to come to next meeting to followup on first month of UA team reboot
<elfy> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x1622890>
<elfy> #info caboose885 to come to next meeting to followup on first month of UA team reboot
<elfy> if there's nothing else I'll close the meeting
<Iowan> nothing here
<cariboo907> Yay, bedtime :)
<coffeecat> nothing here either
<sefsef> nope
<elfy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Dec  1 20:28:14 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-01-20.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-01-20.07.html
<elfy> ok - thanks everyone and thanks caboose885 for the plan and coming along
<sefsef> yw
<elfy> I'll go and set up UA now
<caboose885> thanks everyone for graciously letting me resurect the team
<elfy> yw
<caboose885> have a good night everyone
<sefsef> night
<Iowan> leafrake time
<sefsef> yw
<elfy> Iowan: lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-24
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 24 16:34:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for quassel (LP: #1388333)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1388333 in quassel (Ubuntu Utopic) "CVE-2014-8483: out-of-bounds read in ECB Blowfish decryption" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1388333
<jdstrand> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for mariadb-5.5 (LP: #1391676)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1391676 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-2384-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially also applies to MariaDB" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391676
<jdstrand> Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for kde-runtime (LP: #1393479)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1393479 in webkitkde (Ubuntu Vivid) "security: Insufficient Input Validation By IO Slaves and Webkit Part" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1393479
<jdstrand> Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for webkitkde (LP: #1393479)
<jdstrand> Thanks to everyone for providing these updates. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep our users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on community
<jdstrand> I've got a very short week this week, with me taking of wed-fri
<jdstrand> I will be working on the click-reviewers-tools and some embargoed issues
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I'm still working on clamav updates
<mdeslaur> and have a few others to prepare
<mdeslaur> I'm on patch piloting duty tomorrow also
<mdeslaur> that's it! sbeattie, you're up
<tyhicks> I'll go
<tyhicks> I have a little bit of ecryptfs maintenance to catch up on from when I was out last friday
<tyhicks> then I'm back to making the apparmor cache code into a library (I expect patches to go out this week) and bug #1362469
<ubottu> bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I don't see jj
<tyhicks> are you around, sarnold?
 * sbeattie is here
<tyhicks> have at it, sbeattie :)
<sbeattie> I'm again working on the gcc pie-by-default-on-amd64 patches, polishing and testing those.
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor reviews and other bits to do.
<sbeattie> I'm also on a short week this week, as I have thurs and fri off.
<sbeattie> that's it for me.
<sbeattie> chrisccoulson: you want to go?
<chrisccoulson> I shall be testing the chromium update this week. I got through some oxide review last week - I still have a bit to review for mediahub branch of oxide
<chrisccoulson> once I've finished https://code.launchpad.net/~chrisccoulson/oxide/top-header-controls off, I shall be working on bug 1326070
<ubottu> bug 1326070 in Oxide "Add support for context menus" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1326070
<chrisccoulson> other than that, it should hopefully be business-as-usual this week (no surprises) :)
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/squirrelmail.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/kolabd.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/glusterfs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ldns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/golang.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, chrisccoulson: thanks
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 24 16:49:04 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-24-16.34.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<jdstrand> hi sbeattie :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-25
<matsubara> hi there
<matsubara> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 25 16:01:03 2014 UTC.  The chair is matsubara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<matsubara> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<matsubara> no action from last meeting
<matsubara> btw, who's here today? :-)
<coreycb> o/
<smb> o/
<caribou> matsubara: o/
<gnuoy> o/
<arges> o/
<sforshee> o/
<matsubara> jamespage, beisner: hi
<beisner> o/
<beisner> hi matsubara!
<matsubara> ok, I guess we have enough of us here. Apologies from Pat, smoser, RyanH and Serge as they're on vacation
<matsubara> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<matsubara> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> #subtopic Release Bugs
<matsubara> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> Hmm that's a 404, who can update that report?
<matsubara> #action matsubara to chase someone that can update release bugs report: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<meetingology> ACTION: matsubara to chase someone that can update release bugs report: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> #subtopic Blueprints
<matsubara> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<matsubara> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<matsubara> I guess after the cloud sprint last week people will be updating those blueprints
<matsubara> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<matsubara> caribou, anything from you?
<caribou> not much here
<matsubara> caribou, ok. thanks!
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> nothing much from us :)
<matsubara> psivaa, you? maybe you know who can update reports.qa.ubuntu.com?
<psivaa> matsubara: i have been doing so far
<matsubara> psivaa, ah, cool. Looks like the report for vivid ( http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server) is not up yet.
<psivaa> matsubara: that could be someone from QA team i suppose
<matsubara> psivaa, I'll look into that after the meeting then. Thanks!
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I did a few stable uploads for Xen in Utopic and Trusty. Though zul, you may want to hold back doing cloud-archive versions. There is more to come. ;) Also from some email report on xen-devel there are a few things missing to make openstack and xen a better experience (bug #1396068 and bug #1394327 at least). I am working on getting things applied and SRUed. Other than that I have nothing.
<psivaa> matsubara: would you mind following this up with jfunk
<ubottu> bug 1396068 in xen (Ubuntu Utopic) "[Xen/xl] dom0 needs to run qemu for qcow access" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396068
<ubottu> bug 1394327 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "unmapping of persistent grants in qemu" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394327
<matsubara> psivaa, will do. thanks for the pointer
<matsubara> thanks for the report smb
<zul> smb: ack
<matsubara> hi zul
<zul> hey matsubara
<matsubara> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<matsubara> I don't see anything in the calendar
<matsubara> Any events soon?
<matsubara> It was coreycb birthday last Friday. Happy birthday coreycb!
<coreycb> thanks matsubara !
<matsubara> ok, let's move on.
<matsubara> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<matsubara> anything server related topics?
<matsubara> 3
<matsubara> 2
<matsubara> 1
<matsubara> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<matsubara> so, next meeting same day, same hour, next week. Chair will be kickinz1
<Kick> ok, thanks matsubara.
<beisner> thanks matsubara
<matsubara> that's Dec 2nd at 1600UTC
<beisner> Kick, no pressure ;)
<gnuoy> thanks matsubara
<caribou> thanks matsubara
<matsubara> thank y'all for joining!
<Kick> ;)
<matsubara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 25 16:14:32 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-25-16.01.moin.txt
<jamespage> blimey that was fast
 * jamespage had to duck out for a bit
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-27
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> We have the meeting today?
<mvo> I was wondering the same, I guess not
<mvo> us holiday and all that
<cjwatson> I was thinking of it, but we're probably too low on numbers to be worth it
<cjwatson> unless people have particularly interesting things to say
<cjwatson> otherwise I'll go back to swearing at this ruby-libxml build failure :-)
<stgraber> I'm around but don't really have anything to discuss
<cjwatson> I have my notes for the record I guess
<cjwatson> Merges, merges, merges.
<cjwatson> Finished lcms2 transition and removed lcms.
<cjwatson> Sorted out subtle apache2 trigger-handling bug 1393832, which broke a couple of autopkgtests and impeded some of the remaining bits of the transition away from ruby2.0.
<ubottu> bug 1393832 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "Modules fail to enable when configured after apache2 is configured" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1393832
<cjwatson> Fixed structural subscription recipient team ordering on Launchpad bug subscription pages (bug 1337329).
<ubottu> bug 1337329 in Launchpad itself "Structural subscription recipient picker shows unsorted list of teams" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1337329
<cjwatson> Poked IS about https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=76559 (apt-ftparchive upgrade for source caching) in an effort to get that finished this year.
<cjwatson> Working on by-team categorisation of some archive reports.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> if anyone cares :)
<cjwatson> but don't worry if you don't have them to hand
<mvo> kiko mentioned that he ran into https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/875343
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875343 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Stuck at "Saving installed packages..." when using a custom /var" [High,Triaged]
<mvo> and I was wondering who is doing ubiquity these days :)
<cjwatson> mvo: good question for Steve :-)
<cjwatson> (though that sounds like apt-clone's fault, purely from the progress message :-P)
<mvo> right, yeah this looks like something that is probably not hard, just the time to reproduce and check ps afx to see what is really going on when it hangs
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-29
<hackchy> hello ALL
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-23
<chiluk> o/ ???  all alone.
<sil2100> o/
<chiluk> I have a feeling my chances of reaching quorum are going to be difficult this week.
<chiluk> what about xnox, and cyphermox, and the rest of the DMB peeps?
 * xnox is here
<cyphermox> o/
<sil2100> cyphermox is around for sure, just talked with him on -devel
<sil2100> chiluk: weren't you applying 2 weeks ago? ;)
<cyphermox> I pinged infinity already
<chiluk> sil2100: I was... but we couldn't get quorum
<cyphermox> micahg: are you around after all?
<sil2100> Ah, ok
<chiluk> so the vote was postponed.
<cyphermox> stgraber: poke
<sil2100> oh, some ocaml leftovers in NBS
<sil2100> That won't look good on my resume
<cyphermox> sil2100: it happens, that was nice transition
 * sil2100 promises to deal with those this week
<sil2100> Thanks :)
<chiluk> I have a feeling infinity is either asleep, on vacation or both.
<cyphermox> oh, that might be the case
<chiluk> it's thanksgiving week for us Americans.
<cyphermox> yep
<chiluk> cyphermox how many do you need for quorum.
<cyphermox> 4 people
<cyphermox> we're two right now
<cyphermox> of course the two most important, impartial, and kind people are around
<cyphermox> humble, too ;)
<cyphermox> bdmurray: around?
<cyphermox> Laney: poke poke.
 * sil2100 pokes stgraber just in case
<cyphermox> I may be able to call stgraber if necessary, but I don't have a way to reach others if not through IRC
<chiluk> you guys are killing me.. at this rate, I'll be applying for coredev instead of UCD...
<cyphermox> chiluk: hehe
<cyphermox> I wish people tried harder to make it to the meetings, but I'm often guilty of forgetting about it too.
<chiluk> yeah I was just making a joke.. I was fearful two weeks ago that this would happen due to the holiday here.
<sil2100> Isn't Adam in Canada now anyway?
<chiluk> doesn't mean he'd be awake.
<cyphermox> Stephane and Adam have no excuse, it's not thanksgiving in Canada ;)
<sil2100> I thought the turkey-thing was only for the US guys
<sil2100> ;)
<chiluk> it is but I thought Adam was american by birth.. we bring our holidays with us wherever we go.
<cyphermox> stgraber should be around soon
<chiluk> including xnox that would make 4.
 * stgraber waves :)
<chiluk> Hey Hey!
<sil2100> \o/
<cyphermox> just need one more DMB member.
<xnox> !dbm-ping
<cyphermox> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<chiluk> isn't there some double jeopardy clause in the by-laws such that if an applicant can't be voted on for more than one meeting they are automatically accepted?
<chiluk> please please...
<cyphermox> chiluk: we can certainly do it by email
<Laney> I'm here
<Laney> sorry
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<chiluk> wooHOO!
<cyphermox> yay
<Laney> full of cold
<sil2100> \o/
<chiluk> let's get this party started.
<chiluk> I know you guys have more important things to do.
<cyphermox> micah's turn to chair but he's not around. stgraber can you do it?
 * xnox is confused if we have all or not.
<stgraber> yup
<Laney> all what?
<cyphermox> xnox: we have quorum
<stgraber> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 23 15:20:04 2015 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> 4 DMB members, as I recall
<xnox> cyphermox, cool.
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<stgraber> Laney to start an onboarding page for new dmb members
<stgraber> Laney: has that been done or should we carry this one over?
<Laney> I did it
<Laney> I mailed a link to the list asking for comments
<Laney> didn't get any
<cyphermox> can you share the link here for the minutes/
 * xnox does not recall.... =(
<Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase
 * cyphermox searches
<stgraber> oh yeah, just found the e-mail
<Laney> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 17:52:51 +0100
<stgraber> DMB members who didn't consent to fill in feedback to Noskcaj
 * xnox ducks
<stgraber> I think we need to keep this one as I'm not seeing evidence that this happened :)
<cyphermox> yes
<stgraber> #topic Confirm whether we grant membership for uploaders by default
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Confirm whether we grant membership for uploaders by default
<xnox> last meeting we converged to the following: if one wants membership one should apply as contributing developer, motu, or core-dev.
<xnox> per-package(set) uploaders do not assume membership.
<Laney> erm
<cyphermox> Laney: we had some discussion about this at the last meeting but it seemed like we couldn't quite get to an agreement
<Laney> you decided to change the criteria?
<xnox> if one wants PPU + membership, one should explicitely apply for PPU+contributing developer.
<Laney> oh geez
<xnox> Laney, yeah, this is summary of a (new) opinion, some board members had.
<xnox> i.e. myself and (micahg?!) can't remember now.
<cyphermox> could we perhaps move ahead to voting on this proposition, or decide to amend it?
<stgraber> yeah, we can vote but by the sounds of it, it won't pass
<cyphermox> which won't pass? ;)
<stgraber> we're only 4 around, if we don't get 4 +1s it'll fail
<cyphermox> right
<xnox> we can vote as is. I will vote -1 on "grant membership for uploaders by default". And say that there is already mechanism for that -> contributing developer.
<xnox> i can be convinced that i'm being illogical =)
<stgraber> the proposal on the agenda is to by default assume that PPU means membership unless we decide otherwise
<cyphermox> well, then it needs to be amended, and we probably should take this to email instead so everyone can bring up their points
<xnox> and that e.g. contributing member -> is membership without any upload rights, and that membership is needed for uploading anything.
<Laney> It's too much of a burden to assume that people will understand this, and doesn't make sense to make the DMB explicitly make this determination fro every application
<Laney> whatever
<cyphermox> doesn't it kind of involve sustained contributions at least to even be considered for PPU?
<stgraber> I agree with Laney, it's way easier for us to determine when someone shouldn't be getting membership and make it clear then rather than require EVERYONE to request both
<cyphermox> in which case Laney's proposition is simple and straightforward
<xnox> oh, if we grant it when people are eligble, that makes sense.
<xnox> and it's up to us to be diligent, and say "yeah cool you can upload but no membership yet, come back for it" that sounds sensible.
<cyphermox> xnox: sounds to me like that is what Laney means :)
<xnox> i guess at each PPU grant, we do a second mini-vote whether or not to grant membership too?
<Laney> No
<xnox> why would we do that, instead of granting contributing developer?
<cyphermox> I wouldn't even bother
<Laney> You just have the vote in the negative case
<Laney> in most cases it is implied
<xnox> to PPUs, when PPUs apply, and are eligible for membership?
<Laney> it really hardly ever comes up in practie
<Laney> practice
<Laney> so it's not sensible to put the burden on the normal case
<xnox> "This does not happen automatically - they must be added to the ~ubuntu-dev team." -> can we not add people to contributing developer instead?
 * xnox ponders if we should move on to email.
<Laney> ucd isn't in ubuntu-dev
<Laney> I'm only happy moving to email if people will actually reply. :)
<stgraber> ubuntu-dev is only for Ubuntu members who have upload rights, so being in UCD doesn't get you that
<xnox> stgraber, ack.
<Laney> it gets you bug control and other teams that UCD doesn't
<Laney> because UCD is just membership
<xnox> i see.
<stgraber> we can also vote for it now and then you can get the rest of the members to vote on the list, may be enough to have this pass
<Laney> OK
<stgraber> #vote Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<Laney> nice
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Do we grant Ubuntu membership by default for PPUs (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-August/000815.html)?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> there, done :)
<stgraber> Laney: is there any documentation we need updating?
<Laney> well, it's the status quo, so no
<Laney> in theory
<xnox> stgraber, i guess XXX needs removal from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase under teams to add uploaders to
<Laney> ah
<Laney> I was just going to say that I should add this somewhere
<Laney> OK let me edit that
<stgraber> cool
<stgraber> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<Laney> that ubuntu-uploaders sentence is utter lies
 * Laney fixes that too
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html
<stgraber> Laney: ok, so this item is just about adding a new package set for the ubuntu qt stuff and adding a few more packages to the existing qt set?
<stgraber> qt5 set today: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/xenial/qt5
<Laney> I think so
<Laney> because they don't fit the description there
<stgraber> ok, should we just vote on this then, seems pretty straightforward to me
<Laney> Probably, just want to know what a Qt package is
<Laney> anything which build-depends on qt at all?
<cyphermox> seems wrong
 * xnox 'd just update qt5 packageset description to include all qt5* base stuff, irrespective of origin.
<cyphermox> plus it probably should be unity8-desktop as a name or something to the effect that it's unity8 things, not necessarily qt
<stgraber> proposed description is:
<stgraber> Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the
<stgraber> upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers
<cyphermox> right
<stgraber> so not all rdepends of qt, more like tight version rdepends (due to private symbols)
<xnox> sounds good. and just stick that as ".. and" into qt5 package set, and update the lot.
<stgraber> proposed set of package is:
<stgraber> appmenu-qt5 ciborium fcitx-qt5 gsettings-qt maliit-framework oxide-qt
<stgraber> qtmir qtmir-gles qtubuntu qtubuntu-gles qtvideo-node ubuntu-ui-toolkit
<stgraber> ubuntu-ui-toolkit-gles unity8 webbrowser-app
<cyphermox> except I can see more people wanting to upload these packages in the future, and things being added that might not be qt5
<xnox> existing uploaders know how to upload those, as far as I remember. Or have been co-operating with "private ubuntu qt5" uploads in the past (~kubuntu-dev)
<cyphermox> on top of that, all these packages usually go through the CI train, not usually direct uploads
<cyphermox> (or, at least most of them, possibly exception being fcitx-qt5 and gsettings-qt
 * xnox sides at making timo core-dev, and stop adding new qt packagesets or packages, and then timo can be go to person for ci landing of those components ;-)
<stgraber> the proposed set name and description don't specifically mention qt5, just says ubuntu specific stuff using private qt symbols, so typically ubuntu sdk and related libs, with unity8 being a special one
<cyphermox> stgraber: there's lots of stuff surrounding that current set that are make with go, and so don't have any qt symbols
<cyphermox> or at least, that was my understanding
<cyphermox> I mostly just don't like the qt/using qt headers being a criteria for a packageset, I guess
<sil2100> Mirv wants to try for core-dev, but said he'll do it after I become a core-dev first
<sil2100> Soooo... just saying.. you know...
<sil2100> ;)
<cyphermox> vote or not, and then move on?
<xnox> sil2100, i shall not be peer pressured.
 * Laney watches money slide under the table
<sil2100> I'm not implying anything! My intentions are as clear as mountain water
 * sil2100 goes quiet now
<Laney> I'm happy to vote this
<stgraber> cyphermox: the static go stuff would never be in that set because if statically built (instead of using cgo), you won't need rebuild/changing when private symbols change in the archive, since it bundles its own copy
<stgraber> #vote Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cyphermox> stgraber: I'm saying by this that it feels to specific
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<Laney> I'd be happy to amend this by mail
<Laney> it's not the best
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<cyphermox> +0. seems to specific to me, but I won't block if everyone agrees already.
<meetingology> +0. seems to specific to me, but I won't block if everyone agrees already. received from cyphermox
<stgraber> cyphermox: I like too specific, it's easier to make it less specific than more specific later :)
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<cyphermox> I'd rather fewer random packagesets for random things
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> ^ motion carried
<Laney> false
<stgraber> yeah, that's wrong
<Laney> deferred to email
<xnox> true.
<cyphermox> no, consider it fine for me tbh
<Laney> or next meeting
<Laney> then you need to vote +1 :P
<cyphermox> did you not read what was next to +0? ;)
<xnox> we have quorum, and we only need to have possitive outcome.
<cyphermox> let's move on
<Laney> ffs
<stgraber> we need quorum and 4 +1s to have a motion pass, this wasn't the case here
<stgraber> so if cyphermox feels like +1ing instead, we can re-vote, otherwise this is moving to ML to get the remaining votes
<cyphermox> arf
<cyphermox> sure, let's quickly revote
<stgraber> #vote Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<Laney> haha
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create a new ubuntu-qt-packages packageset with description "Qt packages used by Ubuntu not originating from the upstream Qt project but using Qt private headers"
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> thanks!
<stgraber> there we go :)
<cyphermox> thar.
<stgraber> #action stgraber to implement changes listed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to implement changes listed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2015-October/000856.html
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/chiluk
<stgraber> chiluk: still around?
<chiluk> yes..
<stgraber> can you give us a quick intro on who you are and what you've been doing?
<cyphermox> I know chiluk, he definitely did not bribe me to +1.
<chiluk> hah.
<xnox> I know chiluk, he definitely did not bribe me to +1.
<chiluk> Alright, well I work for Canonical on sustaining old releases.
<chiluk> mostly for paying customers, but I do my best to get out on public launchpad as often as I can.
<chiluk> as such my work is very scatter-brained and unfocussed.
<chiluk> I'm not requesting PPU for that reason.
<stgraber> sounds like everyone's ready to vote already so let's do it then :)
<chiluk> there are very few packages that I will ever touch twice.
<chiluk> hah.
<stgraber> #startvote UCD for chiluk
<chiluk> alright guys.
<stgraber> #vote UCD for chiluk
<meetingology> Please vote on: UCD for chiluk
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Laney> +!
<Laney> 1!!
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<Laney> PLUS BANG
<chiluk> someone should -1 for infinity
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: UCD for chiluk
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> Man, I should have brought screwdrivers with me to the sprint too...
<chiluk> sil2100: why when, I live in town.
<cyphermox> chiluk: my only request would be for you to fix https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/8.21-1ubuntu5.2
<stgraber> oh, is that how you bribed cyphermox? :)
<chiluk> cyphermox, yeah I'm on that.
<chiluk> cyphermox, the test never ran before my upload.
<cyphermox> stgraber: nah, there was no alcohol, just tools.
<chiluk> now it's being run and failing
<xnox> chiluk, fyi have you seen https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/8.21-1ubuntu5.2 ? =)
<chiluk> although it only fails ont eh buildds.
<chiluk> yeah I've been looking into it.
<xnox> rightyoh.
<chiluk> the test that fails was never getting run before because df couldn't read the mount table, and would thus skip the test.
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer application for Åukasz Zemczak
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer application for Åukasz Zemczak
<chiluk> so it works better.
<xnox> chiluk, "Kernel version: Linux lgw01-46 3.19.0-33-generic #38~14.04.1-Ubuntu SMP Fri Nov 6 18:17:28 UTC 2015 x86_64" =)
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaszZemczak/CoreDeveloperApplication
<sil2100> o/
<stgraber> good, you're still around :)
 * chiluk goes to figure out how to get ubuntu business cards for conferences.
<stgraber> sil2100: can you introduce yourself, what you're working on and why you'd like to become a core developer?
<sil2100> Sure!
<sil2100> I'm Åukasz, working for Canonical for quite a while, currently the semi release-manager for Ubuntu Touch, one of the co-maintainers of the infameous CI Train and current co-maintainer of system-image
<sil2100> I'm also a MOTU since over a year
<sil2100> Been doing two +1 maintenance sessions, with the most recent one a bit more fruitful than the first
<sil2100> I have worked a bit more on main packages recently and decided to re-apply - becoming a core-dev would make my development work much easier, not only from the CI Train side, but also during my patch-pilot and +1 maintenance sessions
<sil2100> I'm also the maintainer of the ubuntu-touch seeds and even though the package itself is in universe, the owner of the branches is ubuntu-core-dev, so well ;) I would like to stop bothering people all the time
<sil2100> And I think that's basically it, becoming a core-dev is my long-standing goal
<Laney> so this isn't your first application
<Laney> what's changed since last time? :)
<sil2100> No, last time I applied I basically didn't have too much main experience as during all my piloting sessions and archive work I was concentrating on universe, the place where I had power
<Mirv> (thanks for the Qt PPU additions. with those I'd manage through Qt 5.5 before applying for core-dev)
<sil2100> So since that time I started actually working on main packages as advised by xnox, helping out in the wily FTBFS from the test-rebuilds right before release
 * xnox notices abi transitions work from sil as well
<sil2100> Then I wanted to help out and resolve the ocaml transition, but sadly most of the packages there were in universe
<sil2100> And just now noticed that I have some leftovers in NBS from the transition, ouch! But resolving those now inbetween things
<xnox> sil2100, which tools did you use to assist you with ocaml transition?
<sil2100> xnox: reverse-depends, a xenial-proposed chroot, I used chdist for checking installability on different platforms (at first I used the porterboxes, but chdist was faster)
<xnox> sil2100, any websites at all? e.g. launchpad...?
<sil2100> I created a few scripts that were helping me in the no-change rebuilds, checking for installability problems first and then outputting dependencies etc.
<sil2100> xnox: used launchpad too, but my scripts were fetching the most required information using LP API
<sil2100> Like which archs FTBFS, what binaries are provided by the packages
<sil2100> At first I was checking those manually through launchpad, but seeing ~100 packages in the transition, I got tired and wrote some stupid-helpers
<xnox> sil2100, have you used transition tracker at all?
<sil2100> Of course
<xnox> cool.
<sil2100> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/ocaml.html
<sil2100> That was the main page I was using for the transition
<sil2100> (e.g. which packages needed my attention)
<sil2100> I see that something causes now ocaml to have installability issues, will look at that later
<Laney> any more?
<stgraber> #vote Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Core Developer membership for sil2100
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> \o/ Thank you!
<Na3iL> congrats sil2100 :)
<Mirv> congrats sil2100!
<cyphermox> thanks sil2100
<cyphermox> I hope that doesn't mean I hear less from you for citrain silo reviews ;)
<sil2100> hah ;)
<sil2100> Interesting, all ocaml binaries look installable here, maybe I'll have to dig a bit deeper
 * xnox /o\ what have we done. anway, i shall have sil2100 on speed dial for any ci train issues =)
<sil2100> But I noticed that the ben is not to be trusted in 100%
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting (following alphabetical order of first names)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting (following alphabetical order of first names)
<sil2100> No worries! I'll get bad karma if I publish too many bad packages through the train
<stgraber> that will be micahg, I'll move my name last in the list
 * sil2100 only likes good karma
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: AOB
<stgraber> anything?
<cyphermox> I don't know
<stgraber> I've already done the packageset changes we agreed on, added chiluk to UCD and sil2100 to core-dev, so we should be good action-wise.
<sil2100> stgraber: thanks!
<cyphermox> I responded to Timo by email to say the pkgset was done
<stgraber> thanks!
<chiluk> thanks stgraber, cyphermox, Laney, xnox
<cyphermox> chiluk: looking forward to sponsoring requests from you to eventually +1 a core-dev application
<chiluk> that's the goal.
<stgraber> agenda updated too
<Laney> thanks
<stgraber> and replied to the applications saying they've been approved and Cced the news-team
<stgraber> so I think we're all done
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 23 16:29:50 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-23-15.20.moin.txt
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 23 16:32:47 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Andrew Starr-Bochicchio (asomething) provided debdiffs for trusty-wily for libpng (LP: #1516592)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1516592 in libpng (Ubuntu Wily) "CVE-2015-8126: Multiple buffer overflows" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516592
<tyhicks> Bas Couwenberg (sebastic) provided debdiffs for trusty-vivid for freexl (LP: #1516257)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1516257 in freexl (Ubuntu Vivid) "[DSA 3208-2] freexl regression update" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516257
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm testing some icedtea-web updates, and I have an embargoed update to test
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll be going down the list, as usual
<mdeslaur> that's it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm currently digging in to a couple of build failures I hit after building the vast majority of main with gcc-pie
<sbeattie> I also have openjdk-7 packages to test
<sbeattie> and that will probably consume my short week this week (US thanksgiving)
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I need to restart the mapplauncherd review (preempted last week by another code review)
<tyhicks> I want to start working on AppArmor policy loads inside of a user namespace
<tyhicks> and I need to do some snappy sprint prep
<tyhicks> short week for me (US holiday + I'm off Wed)
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> its a short week for me too due to the thanksgiving holiday, I need to finish up with bug 1446906, and send out a couple more patches for the apparmor kernel SRU for review, and the get back to working on stacking
<ubottu> bug 1446906 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc container with postfix, permission denied on mailq" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1446906
<jjohansen> thats it for /me sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; short week, thanksgiving; I'm finishing the libmicrohttp* MIR, starting DPDK, and reviewing some of the apparmor kernel patches that I assume are headed my way
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got a chromium update to sponsor this week, I'm also still waiting for a thunderbird release
<chrisccoulson> I shall be preparing an Oxide release for next week as well
<chrisccoulson> In addition to that, I've got quite a lot of reviews to get through. I've just done one
<chrisccoulson> I'm currently trying to get the camera working in the browser - it's just crashing atm, but I hope to have that done this week
<chrisccoulson> Then I plan to work on what we discussed at the sprint for bug 1447345
<ubottu> bug 1447345 in Oxide "Support the unprivileged namespace sandbox" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447345
<chrisccoulson> I think that's it
<tyhicks> busy week :)
<chrisccoulson> (no short week for me)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rope.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tntnet.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ldns.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libfpdi-php.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/snack.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 23 16:46:18 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-23-16.32.moin.txt
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-24
<Emerling>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER Emerling jqmywahqolgm
<tsimonq2> 0.0
 * Emerling sorry
<pcimagen> Hola
<pcimagen> somebody here?
<Emerling> Hi, team ubuntu-ve ready . thanks members
<pcimagen> o/ Emerling
<naudy> Emerling: o/
<naudy> Abr1l: o/
<Abr1l> naudy, ;)
<naudy> Lord_System:  o/
<Lord_System> naudy o/
<AndChat|683156> Hi
<AndChat|683156> Test from android
<AndChat|683156> Abr1l: hola
<Abr1l> AndChat|683156, /nick ;)
<AndChat|683156> Soy pcimagen
<Abr1l> AndChat|683156, so /nick pcimagen ;)
<naudy> k15h4: o/
<k15h4> .o/
<jgrimm> hi there.
<jgrimm> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 24 16:00:39 2015 UTC.  The chair is jgrimm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<kickinz1> o/
<matsubara> o/
<caribou> o/
<jgrimm> might be a light turnout today.. a good number of server team are out on vacation
<thedac> o/
<jgrimm> hi folks!
<arges> o/
<jgrimm> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jgrimm> So all 3 of the action items were for rbasak who is on vacation this week
<jgrimm> rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<jgrimm> that one looks done..
<matsubara> jgrimm, I believe rbasak replied to the list addressing his action points
<jgrimm> matsubara, oh...good to know. i missed that
<jgrimm> will go quickly then
<jgrimm> rbasak to create blueprint for Xenial feature work
<jgrimm> that too is done.
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-x-server-core
<jgrimm> See that link for various package assignments
<matsubara> jgrimm, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2015-November/007141.html
<jgrimm> thanks matsubara!
<matsubara> np
<jgrimm> moving along, looks like final one still in process, so will continue action for that one
<jgrimm> #action rbasak to find kickinz1 a merge to do. In progress, suggesting exim4.
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to find kickinz1 a merge to do. In progress, suggesting exim4.
<jgrimm> on we go..
<kickinz1> Ok
<jgrimm> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<jgrimm> Still in merge/sync mode...
<jgrimm> anyone have anything they want to discuss here?
<jgrimm> rbasak is still looking for volunteers for some merges.  Documented in blueprint.
<kickinz1> working on the docker.io one currently.
<jgrimm> kickinz1, always a fun one. eek
<jgrimm> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> jgrimm: I'll have a look at the list to see if I can h elp
<jgrimm> thanks caribou!!
<jgrimm> Anything on bugs?
<caribou> just uploaded makedumpfile/kdump-tools to Debian
<caribou> the upcoming version will default to enabled and use of smaller initrd.img
<caribou> that's all I have
<jgrimm> k. thanks caribou
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> jgrimm, no news for this week.
<jgrimm> ok thanks matsubara
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> I cannot think of anything to report. Are there requests or questions?
<jgrimm> going once
<jgrimm> and gone. thanks smb.
<jgrimm> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<jgrimm> Only thing I saw was OSCON CFP deadline today
<jgrimm> http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/open-source/public/cfp/423
<jgrimm> #link http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/open-source/public/cfp/423
<jgrimm> Anything else?
<kickinz1> pycon?
 * jgrimm checks quick
<kickinz1> Sorry from the canonical-tech, but seems not relevant (namibia)
<kickinz1> http://na.pycon.org/
<cpaelzer> jgrimm, when are we going to adress systemz conference CFPs ?
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, :)
<jgrimm> kickinz1, finally found the CFP date
<jgrimm> The call for proposals expires on the 15th December 2015.
<jgrimm> ok, moving on
<jgrimm> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jgrimm> anyone have anything for open discussion time??
<jgrimm> ok, time to wrap things up then.   assumed it would be quick one with smoser and rbasak out this week.
<jgrimm> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<jgrimm> The next meeting will be Tue Dec 01 16:00 UTC 2015. kickinz1 will chair.
<jgrimm> Thanks folks!
<kickinz1> Thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<jgrimm> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 24 16:22:18 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-24-16.00.moin.txt
<pitti> o/
<stgraber> pitti: we're in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<pitti> argh
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-26
<pitti> hello o/
<pitti> *tock* *tock* is this thing on?
<davmor2> pitti: it is
<davmor2> pitti: also thanksgiving so I don't know who you are expecting ;)
<sil2100> o/
<pitti> the non-US foundations folks :)
 * infinity yawns.
<cyphermox> o/
<cyphermox> pitti: you da chair?
<pitti> yes, but not too many other chairs are taken yet :)
<cyphermox> heh
<pitti> â¯startmeeting
<pitti> err, how did I do that
<sil2100> Wrong hash sign!
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 26 16:05:37 2015 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pitti> #topic veeeeery small lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: veeeeery small lightning round
 * pitti throws slangasek's magic dice
 * sil2100 starts wondering how keys on pitti's keyboard look like
<pitti> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox)
<pitti> tdaitx sil2100 robru xnox infinity barry caribou cyphermox bdmurray doko pitti slangasek
<infinity> tdaitx isn't here either.
<pitti> sil2100: must have hit the compose key or something :)
<sil2100> hmm, no Tiago today too?
<xnox> he is american too, i presume, no?
<xnox> thanksgiving and all that
<pitti> Brazil
<infinity> Brasilian.
<xnox> oh
<infinity> But he's taking a long weekend.
<xnox> i had no idea =) that time zone then =)
<sil2100> Anyway, yeah, I'll go first then
<pitti> sil2100: so go ahead
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - Review and help in resolving the platform-api, dbus-cpp and mediascanner2 situation
<sil2100> - Add new frameworks, remove invalid ones
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Preparing a network-manager-pptp sync
<sil2100>   * Working on the network-manager-applet merge
<sil2100>   * Looking into NBS of camlp4-extra - request removal
<sil2100> - Clean-up and release of old livecd-rootfs changes
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Planning changes of introducing a configurable phased percentage value per-channel
<sil2100> - Succeeded on becoming a core-dev \o/
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> ^ sil2100: nm-applet merge, you didn't know what you were getting into ;)
 * pitti gives sil2100 a cookie for doing +1 work
<pitti> sil2100: congrats to the new badge!
 * cyphermox congratulates sil2100 again for core-dev
<pitti> I suppose robru isn't here -- xnox?
<xnox> old merges: merged LSB
<xnox> resolving uninstalble, and non-migrating packages (liblas, qpdf)
<xnox> bootstrap is coming along nicely over 12 hundred builds are complete based on mixed wily & xenial, multiple bug fixes for that. Will need migration to xenial proper soon.
<xnox> working on d-i: requested sync for missing packages, and worked with apw on a non-ftbfs kernel, with the right module / udebs split (complete, and will be part of next kernel upload)
<xnox> next week will work with Odd_Bloke on live-build, ubuntu-cdimage, et.al. to see what changes will be needed to support new images
<xnox> ..
<infinity> - s390x, s390x, s390x
<infinity> - Some SRU and kernel things
<infinity> - Some AA things
<infinity> (done)
<pitti> xnox: you mean already buliding s390 images?
<sil2100> Thanks :)
<cyphermox>  - patch pilot work
<cyphermox>  - uploaded software-properties, grub2-signed
<cyphermox>  - debugged new debconf questions to ask in kdump-tools with caribou.
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, or prep for that at least.
<cyphermox>  - network-manager fix for bug LP: #1499827
<cyphermox>  - more netcfg:
<cyphermox>    - merge with 1.135
<cyphermox>    - keep testing/fixing up bug LP: #1452202
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1499827 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[ipv6] Network manager incorrectly lowers MTU when IPv6 is enabled" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1499827
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in netcfg (Ubuntu) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<cyphermox>  - coached dannf with git-dpm for grub2 patches to land in Debian and Ubuntu
<cyphermox>  - feedback meeting with design on ubiquity work
<cyphermox>  - implemented reworked ubi-prepare plugin for Secure Boot
<xnox> pitti, only prep at the moment. launchpad is not lit up yet.
<cyphermox>    - it needs review: https://code.launchpad.net/~mathieu-tl/ubiquity/disable-verification/+merge/278668
<cyphermox>  - started tasksel merge.
<sil2100> cyphermox: yeah, the merge was supposed to be a 'quick thing' to enable -pptp syncing ;) I didn't know what I was picking up... ;p
<pitti> I was talking to caribou 10 mins ago, pinged him
<sil2100> cyphermox: but as said, it's almost good now
<caribou> o/
<pitti> caribou: want to go now, or last (for prep)?
<caribou> last pls
<pitti> doko: ?
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Integrate http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.html prototype into debci, expose autopkgtest AMQP queue lengths and contents
<pitti>  - Add support for multiple PPAs in a test; required for silo testing against overlay PPA
<pitti>  - Automate cleanup of abandonded and broken cloud instances
<pitti>  - Fix broken nova instance names with tests that do reverts
<pitti>  - Fix container build commands to include libpam-systemd, as some tests need $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR
<pitti>  - Fix uninstallability failures with dist-upgrading testbed and then apt-pinning
<pitti>  - Rework charm configs and multiple cloud config handling for fully automatic deployment and keeping all configs in git
<pitti>  - Discuss autopkgtests in lxd with stgraber, file #1519677 for notes
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti>  - Add networkd router and device setup functionality tests
<pitti>  - Fix race conditions in boot-and-services and resolvconf integration tests
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - merges: avahi, debhelper, nis, puppet, resolvconf, ruby-defaults
<pitti>  - grep archive for deprecated dh_installinit --upstart-only option, and clean those up (#1519228)
<pitti>  - set up xenial langpack building, build first ones
<pitti> DONE
<pitti> slangasek is out too
<pitti> caribou: we are done otherwise, so just post when you're ready
<caribou> ok, I'm ready
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou>  - Old Maas 1.5 debugging
<caribou>  - packaged & uploaded new sosreport to fix debian FTBS
<caribou> - packaged & uploaded makedumpfile 1.5.9 with:
<caribou> New logic for smaller initrd.img
<caribou> Enabled by default
<caribou> Fixes LP: #1496317
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496317 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu) "kexec fails with OOM killer with the current crashkernel=128 value" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496317
<caribou> (done)
<doko> ouch
<doko> - still fixing ISL fall-out, ongoing GCC builds
<doko> - look at Linaro GCC build failures
<doko> (done)
<pitti> that's everyone, thanks
<pitti> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pitti> questions about status, etc?
<doko> ahh, and still having python2.7 test suite issues
 * cyphermox is cooking stuff right now in preparation for tonight making spring rolls
<pitti> doko: seems all green in xenial?
<cyphermox> "right now" because I can just put stuff in boiling water and forget.
<xnox> doko, hm... will i need to do isl transition in bootstrap archive then?!
<xnox> cyphermox, lovely
<pitti> and always fail on armhf/ppc in wily
<cyphermox> sil2100: do you wanna take the n-m merge next ? ;)
<sil2100> cyphermox: hmmmm, not sure if I should answer that!
<xnox> caribou, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2015-April/000196.html
<sil2100> Well, if this merge goes ok and doesn't break the world, I *might* consider that
<pitti> ok, seems we are done with the official meeting part, thanks everyone
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 26 16:19:17 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-26-16.05.moin.txt
<doko> xnox, xenial based? yes, then I think so
<xnox> doko, what's the actual change  / transition tracker / soname change of isl?
 * xnox goes to look
<doko> xnox, libisl13 -> libisl15
<xnox> doko, oh, it's in proposed at the moment still =) i don't care then, unless you complete that transition before launchpad is lit up =)
<xnox> if you do complete it before we lit it up, well i shall be screwed =)
<cyphermox> xnox: can you spend a few minutes to review my ubiquity branch?
<cyphermox> xnox: you're pretty much the one person with relatively recent state on ubiquity
<xnox> haha, ok.
<cyphermox> ;)
<xnox> it's only been 16 months
<cyphermox> yeah
<cyphermox> it's only already a messy codebase
<sil2100> o/
<doko> xnox, the linux autopkg test is still in progress, but then it should be good
<xnox> doko, >_< ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-28
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 16:31:47 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> this week I'll be following up on the dbus-app interface, and have a bunch of snap reviews
<jdstrand> I have some review tools updates
<jdstrand> after that I'll be looking at the network-namespace interface
<jdstrand> then start adding seccomp arg filtering policy
<jdstrand> that's it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<tyhicks> he's not around right now
<tyhicks> sbeattie: you're up
<jdstrand> oh, sorry
<tyhicks> np
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> s/snap reviews/snappy reviews/
<sbeattie> I have vim updates to test and publish
<sbeattie> kernel updates should be published this week as well
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up another update as well
<sbeattie> I also have some apparmor tasks to do
<sbeattie> that'll probably consume my week
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> I'll pick up the work for seccomp logging changes to suite snappy
<tyhicks> still need to circle back to the apparmor 14.04 SRU bug followups
<tyhicks> and might be able to get to some of the eCryptfs issues that are piling up such as bug 1636890 and a crypto api usage change
<ubottu> bug 1636890 in linux (Ubuntu) "invalid file times with overlayroot and encrypted home" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636890
<tyhicks> thats it for me
<tyhicks> I don't see jj
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<tyhicks> I don't think he's around either
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: your turn
<chrisccoulson> I need to get an oxide update published. I've also got a firefox update to do as well
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be carrying on with https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/ubuntu-webview-implementation
<chrisccoulson> And at some point, I need to figure out what we do with rust, which is going to become a hard dependency on firefox early next year
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: are all 3 of the build failures fixed?
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, 2 of them are
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: ok, nice work :)
<chrisccoulson> one of them was a v8 bug (https://bugs.chromium.org/p/v8/issues/detail?id=5668)
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: what's remaining?
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, arm64/xenial still fails
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> ratliff: go ahead
<ratliff> I am in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> I have a few internal tasks to finalize and I start management training this week.
<sarnold> (sorry, here now)
<ratliff> I am also working on the ghostscript update. xenial is in the security-proposed ppa
<ratliff> so if anyone wants to do extra testing, it is available
<ratliff> universe project is ongoing
<ratliff> that is it for me
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> sarnold: looks like you're in now - you're up
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week; email catchup from long lovely weekend; I'll finish libsmbios and start swift-s3-storage (or whtever's it's called) and hopefully finish up my apt regression
<sarnold> how far I get throught the swift-s3-storage will depend upon how much more time that apt testing takes (should be quick, but I've thought that before about any number of things..)
<sarnold> that's it for me, tyhicks?
<tyhicks> sounds good
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ceph-deploy.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/android-platform-system-core.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ccid.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/c-icap.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/onionshare.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 28 16:49:20 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-28-16.31.moin.txt
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-29
<nacc> o/
<rharper> o/
<powersj> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<nacc> give a few more minutes for folks to join up
<nacc> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 29 16:04:09 2016 UTC.  The chair is nacc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<nacc> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<nacc> cpaelzer: looks like the wiki maybe wasnt' updated (date is off), but i think no current action items?
<cpaelzer> nacc: no action items left
<nacc> cpaelzer: ack, moving on! :)
<cpaelzer> nacc: other than jgrimm that started a mail thread
<cpaelzer> was considered DONE
<cpaelzer> but maybe he might report on any feedback
<cpaelzer> there was none last week
<nacc> i believe jgrimm is not available fully this week
<cpaelzer> true
<nacc> so we'll defer to next week for an update, to keep moving
<nacc> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<nacc> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> nacc, yes my item is done except for our followup meeting at f2f sprint
<cpaelzer> nacc: and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20161122 is updated fyi - just not the front page
<jgrimm> and yes, distracted atm
<nacc> jgrimm: thanks!
<nacc> cpaelzer: ah ok, thanks!
<nacc> any discussion for Z?
<nacc> I'm mid-merge on a few items (php7.0 + MRE for X & Y for the same), imagemagick (due to a regression)
<powersj> oh I submitted MIR for a few packages
<cpaelzer> also on MIR & merges
<powersj> htop, iotop and nicstat
<nacc> powersj: nice! seems reasonable and useful :)
<rbasak> An MIR may be needed to land sssd, stuck in zesty-proposed.
<rbasak> I added it to the blueprint.
<nacc> rbasak: thank you!
<powersj> LP: #1644364, LP: #1644368, LP: #1644372 for mine
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1644364 in htop (Ubuntu) "[MIR] htop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644364
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1644368 in iotop (Ubuntu) "[MIR] iotop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1644372 in nicstat (Ubuntu) "[MIR] nicstat" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644372
<nacc> i guess my above link was premature :) ...
<nacc> Seems like we're all making good progress
<nacc> #subtopic Release Bugs
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> not too many active bugs in there yet
<nacc> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> caribou: around?
<nacc> ok, looks like maybe not, moving on
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<nacc> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Running cloud-init tests, need to investigate a few test framework issues/hangs, otherwise the tests are completing as expected. Investigating random hangs in simplestreams unit tests. Had the test fail on at least 4 different tests.
<powersj> Will also continue work on cloud-init integration documentation as well as getting the ppc64el baremetal system up.
<nacc> powersj: awesome
<rharper> \o/
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<nacc> neither are in the channel, so moving on :)
<nacc> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<nacc> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<nacc> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<nacc> The Server Team has a f2f sprint next week
<nacc> Other than that, not aware of anything
<nacc> #topic Open Discussion
<rbasak> The *Canonical* part of the server team, that is :)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<nacc> rbasak: err, yes!
<nacc> any other points for discussion?
<jgrimm> I'd suggest cancelling next week meeting
<nacc> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<nacc> and on that not e:)
<jgrimm> if you haven't done that already
<nacc> so next meeting in *two* weeks, same time, smoser to chair
<jgrimm> thanks
<nacc> I think that's everything, thank you everyone!
<nacc> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 29 16:18:06 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-29-16.04.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> thanks nacc
<jgrimm> thanks nacc
<powersj> thanks nacc!
<nacc> np
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-27
<tyhicks> hello!
<leosilva> o/
<chrisccoulson> whoop
 * sbeattie waves
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 27 16:31:45 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) provided debdiffs for trusty-artful for konversation (LP: #1731797)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1731797 in Kubuntu PPA "[CVE] Crash in IRC message parsing" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1731797
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have three updates I'm about to release, including the remote code execution issue found in exim this weekend
<mdeslaur> we have exim compiled with PIE, so I don't think we have code execution
<mdeslaur> but updates are ready anyway
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll pick something up from the list, if leosilva left me any
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<leosilva> hehe
<sbeattie> I'm also in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> My primary focus is on CVE notifications for snap owners
<sbeattie> I have an openjdk-7 update from td daitx to test and publish
<sbeattie> I have some upstream apparmor tasks open
 * jdstrand is here (sorry)
<sbeattie> and I have the usual bits of kernel cve triage to watch over.
<sbeattie> that's probably my week.
<sbeattie> jdstrand: you want to jump in?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: go ahead
<jdstrand> yeah
<jdstrand> This week I am focusing on:
<jdstrand> * email catchup from short week last week
<jdstrand> * fix a review tools/store bug
<jdstrand> * snapd PR reviews
<jdstrand> * pickup the ssh/gpg interfaces PR
<jdstrand> * investigate/implement proper fix for hotplugged devices not being added to device cgroup (mir input forum issue)
<jdstrand> * investigate tun/tap intermittent spread failure as have time
<jdstrand> * add kmod spread test as have time
<jdstrand> * uid/gid privilege dropping as have time
<jdstrand> * everything from ssh/gpg and after might change depending on an embargoed issue I might be asked to help with
<jdstrand> that's it from me. back to you tyhicks :)
<tyhicks> I'm on community this week
<tyhicks> I'll be catching up on email from being off all last week
<tyhicks> I have several things that I need to nudge along this week but shouldn't require any real work on my side (snapd seccomp logging PR, libseccomp xenial SRU, audit SRUs, libseccomp-golang upstream PR)
<tyhicks> I plan to focus on reproducable squashfs images
<tyhicks> there are two more ecryptfs kernel fixes that need to go into a 4.15 -rc release so I'll get to them as I have time
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jj is out
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week, and getting caught up on whatever I missed while enjoying a nice long weekend
<sarnold> apparmor patch reviews as I can, and finishing the embargoed review, starting on the next MIR on the list
<sarnold> that should cover me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson>  I've got a thunderbird update to do this week (started already), and a firefox publication to finish off
<chrisccoulson> And then rust and cargo updates. I'm reasonably optimistic this one will go better than the last, and it shouldn't be too difficult
<chrisccoulson> I also need to figure out how hard it is to backport python versions for the firefox build
<tyhicks> how many weeks before that's needed?
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, python or rust?
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: python'
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, march for the actual release
<chrisccoulson> but anytime now for trunk
<tyhicks> ack, glad you're thinking about it this early
<chrisccoulson> And then hopefully I'll have some time left to look at other things, finally
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<tyhicks> ratliff: your turn
<ratliff> I'm on bug triage this week
<ratliff> After that I will continue to be focused on internal tasks.
<ratliff> on to you leosilva
<leosilva> I`m the happy place this week
<leosilva> I also will have  a short week (Tuesday is my Friday)
<leosilva> I have a postgresql-common to work and USN and some python that I'm waiting to push to ppas.
<leosilva> I also want to hunt some pkg and push in my list of TODO.
<leosilva> that ` all, tyhicks it is back to you
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-rsa.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/percona-xtrabackup.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libpgf.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python3.7.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xine-ui.html
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 27 16:53:07 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-27-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<leosilva> tks tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-30
<rbalint> o/
 * slangasek waves
<cyphermox> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 30 16:01:43 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> xnox tribaal bdmurray doko infinity sil2100 mwhudson fginther rbalint rcj tdaitx philroche cyphermox Odd_Bloke slangasek
<slangasek> xnox: hi!
<xnox> bah
<xnox> me neither
<xnox> bdmurray,
<bdmurray> interviewed candidates for foundations, talked about them
<bdmurray> modified errors dependencies to install python2 packages to workaround gunicorn charm not supporting xenial
<bdmurray> worked on gunicorn configuration changes for xenial
<bdmurray> modified wsgi.py (errors web site) to work with new django
<bdmurray> modifications to apache2 configuration for xenial
<bdmurray> worked with security team regarding re LP: #1732518
<bdmurray> uploaded Bionic, upstream fixes for apport container support (LP: #1732518)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1732518 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "Please re-enable container support in apport" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732518
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1713004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713004 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "Temporary files left under /var/tmp by mkinitramfs" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713004
<bdmurray> reported django-tastypie failure to work with django LP: #1733013
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1733013 in django-tastypie (Ubuntu Xenial) "16.04's python-django-tastypie doesn't work with 16.04's django" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1733013
<bdmurray> uploaded django-tastypie SRU to fix LP: #1733013
<bdmurray> SRU release of unity-control-center for 16.04 (multiple pings)
<bdmurray> updated meta-release-lts-development for bionic
<bdmurray> submitted RT re setup of juju2 env for dev ops
<bdmurray> uploaded X,Z,A apport SRUs for LP: #1722564
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1722564 in Apport "apport question will not accept multi-character responses" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1722564
<bdmurray> SRU verified apport fix for LP: #1722564
<bdmurray> wrote, landed autopkgtest queue depth metric
<bdmurray> â done
<gaughen> o/
<bdmurray> doko: ?
<doko> - investigate binutils issue with cortex-a53-843419 workaround, fix pending
<doko> - filed 46 issues for python2 demotion (tagged py2-removal)
<doko> - other teams seem to be offended / reluctant by just filing these bugs, sic!
<doko> - bintuils snapshot build, filed issues for regressions
<doko> - gcc-8 bootstrapping again
<doko> - source new processing
<doko> - some MIR feedback
<doko> - some feed management (I think *-dbg and *-dev autoincludes are too dangerous)
<doko> - SRUs for python-stdlib-extensions. python-defaults. python2.7 SRUs pending.
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> sheparding util-linux/systemd through proposed-migrationg; fixing adt failures and some hints too.
<xnox> sheparding trusty cloud image fixes for a partner
<xnox> created 18.04 test appx which fails to boot
<xnox> working on power & s390x tickets
<xnox> trying to finish all of my tickets before end of week; due to holiday next week.
<xnox> ready.
<slangasek> Tribaal:
<xnox> Trevinho,
<Tribaal> * Partner work on minimized images.
<Tribaal> * Vanguard stuff last week
<Tribaal> * Blogged about snaps (hurray I have a use case) https://tribaal.io/serving-a-static-blog-from-a-snap.html
<Tribaal> * Still resetting my desktop machine trying to work around a nouveau bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1723619
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723619 in Linux "Ubuntu Desktop ISO fails to boot with nouveau on a displayport" [Medium,Confirmed]
<Tribaal> (done)
<xnox> unping Trevinho
<fginther> * Reviewing and testing partner APIs for future publishing work
<fginther> * Completed image updates for Apport CVE-2017-14177 and CVE-2017-14180
<fginther> * Debug issues related to CI of minimal images
<ubottu> ** <A HREF="https://cve.mitre.org/about/faqs.html#reserved_signify_in_cve_entry">RESERVED</A> ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-14177)
<ubottu> ** <A HREF="https://cve.mitre.org/about/faqs.html#reserved_signify_in_cve_entry">RESERVED</A> ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-14180)
<fginther> (done)
<rbalint> * set up test git repo for livecd-rootfs packaging
<rbalint> * internal testing work
<rbalint> * poking migration queue in ubuntu, improvin scripts there: https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/+git/autopkgtest-retry
<rbalint> (done)
<slangasek> no infinity?
<slangasek> no sil2100?
<slangasek> fginther:
<slangasek> eh wait
<slangasek> rcj:
<doko> rbalint: while you are working on livecd-rootfs ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1735370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1735370 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "livecd-rootfs: Port to Python3 needed" [Undecided,New]
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<slangasek> not having a good success rate
<cyphermox> indeed.
<slangasek> philroche probably also not here
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> omg
<cyphermox> bionic:
<cyphermox> - checking up on lubuntu uefi install problems
<cyphermox> - debian-cd timeout at splash fixes
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox> - card management / workitem planning from UX doc
<cyphermox> - fix xenial SRU ftbfs (oops)
<cyphermox> - implement backend for Optional feature
<cyphermox> - netplan UX stories discussion
<cyphermox> - writing copy for website setup
<cyphermox> other stuff:
<cyphermox> - gather info on DNS resolution bug behing captive portal (aruba/datavalet) (bug LP: #1727237)
<cyphermox> - review shim-review stuff and trying to convince Matthew or Peter to review Ubuntu's 13-0ubuntu2 submission
<cyphermox> - systemd upstream work for RequiredForOnline= after lennart's review
<cyphermox> - timezonemap project management
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1727237 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolved is not finding a domain" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1727237
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> oh wait
<cyphermox> I was missing MIR review for libteam too :)
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked on KPI to track boot speed of our test instances
<Odd_Bloke> * Worked on KPI to track freshness of Ubuntu Docker images
<Odd_Bloke> * Put finishing touches to daily GCE publication from our new build system
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud images vanguard this week, so keeping stuff ticking over
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek:
<slangasek> rcj:
<slangasek> ok I'll go first ;)
<slangasek>  * two week round-up, last Thursday was Thanksgiving, and was out Friday
<slangasek>  * continued work on unsticking transitions in devel-proposed
<slangasek>  * HIGHLIGHT: autopkgtest infrastructure: scalingstack BOS02 is online
<slangasek>   * we now have proper VMs for running autopkgtests on both arm64 and s390x \o/
<slangasek>   * there have been some problems with the cloud itself that required handholding
<slangasek>   * the arm64 backlog is still being worked through, after which we will be able to assess whether we have the right capacity to keep up
<slangasek>  * netplan UX discussions for 18.04
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> rcj:
<rcj> * Thanksgiving break
<rcj> * cloud-image partner work
<rcj> * Oracle Compute images auto-configure all NICs
<rcj> (done)
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<doko> slangasek: are amrhf and arm64 autopkg test machines shared?
<slangasek> doko: no
<xnox> doko, armhf is still containers on a hand-managed arm64 nodes
<slangasek> they can't be, the armhf pool is configured as static lxd guests
<doko> same like amd64/i386?
<xnox> doko, no
<rbalint> in noticed several cases of autopkgtests running out of space on armhf
<rbalint> maybe increasing quota/disk could help
<doko> just give back
<slangasek> rbalint: bring specifics to #ubuntu-release and we can see if something needs doing there; but it's shared disk between the lxd containers on each host and I don't think we have data on what the high water mark is
<rbalint> slangasek: ok
<slangasek> or what expected max disk usage is for an autopkgtest
<slangasek> anyway, where autopkgtest is concerned, it looks like we are making real progress on the backlog; still about 1000 packages behind on arm64 vs other archs and looks like s390x did catch up
<bdmurray> slangasek: there's a graph for that now too
<slangasek> so if arm64 isn't draining as fast as x86, we know we need more instances
<slangasek> bdmurray: oh!  I didn't know that was up
<slangasek> bdmurray: only on the doubly-internal board?
<slangasek> looks like it :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: Yes, I just did it yesterday but only for the ubuntu queue
<slangasek> ok, cool
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think for this we care about it for all queues fwiw
<slangasek> because what we're trying to measure is autopkgtest capacity
<slangasek> bdmurray: ah, and it definitely needs to include the huge queues (preferably merged into the non-huge numbers)
<slangasek> anything else on status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything we need to review/triage here?
<bdmurray> slangasek: bug 1732447 - I thought I'd heard you updated command-not-found near the end of AA
<ubottu> bug 1732447 in command-not-found (Ubuntu) "rename no longer included in perl package, but still linked" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732447
<doko> bdmurray: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/+bug/1153671 pitti mentioned that you would be eager to do that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1153671 in apport (Ubuntu) "Port to python3-launchpadlib" [Medium,Triaged]
<slangasek> bdmurray: it may be true that I updated it at one point in the cycle, but I know it wasn't late enough to pick up all the command changes in A release
<bdmurray> "eager"? Is there a card for that?
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think we need to make sure we fix that in the release checklist
<bdmurray> slangasek: That was my real question
<doko> slangasek: do yu have any shares in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nfs-utils/+bug/1735458 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1735458 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "please convert mountstats and nfsiostat scripts to Python3" [Undecided,New]
<doko> nfs-utils this is
<doko> bdmurray: can you create one?
<slangasek> doko: we are going over http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs now, please
<doko> hmm, need to find out how to add bugs there ...
<slangasek> doko: but no, I have no stake in nfs-utils currently
<doko> ok
<slangasek> bdmurray: command-not-found is listed in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetaProcess but I don't think it happened at that point
<slangasek> last upload of command-not-found was 25 Sep, which was not 10 days before release
<slangasek> so this is a checklist process failure
<bdmurray> Is there anyway to address that?
<slangasek> w/ the release team
<slangasek> I don't remember who ran the beta milestone, but whichever one it was is not currently in the meeting ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: any other bugs need discussing?
<bdmurray> Okay
<slangasek> LP: #1707898
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1707898 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd translations are not synced with upstream" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1707898
<slangasek> xnox: you marked this critical?
<gaughen> slangasek, xnox said yes
<slangasek> xnox: but it's also in the incoming queue, but it sounds like you're not expecting /us/ to commit to it for bionic, so we should probably drop that tag?
<xnox> slangasek, yes! it was critical to integrate this work. either translations should not be stripped form systemd; or systemd catalogues need to be imported into the launchpad builders; or systemd-i18n package should be disected into catalogs
<xnox> slangasek, well, it should be critical for the language-pack-base then?
<slangasek> possibly
<slangasek> xnox: so you'll take the action to remove the tag or otherwise move this to a different package?
<slangasek> tabled for now; xnox and gaughen will follow up
<gaughen> hmm, we'll have to figure out where this shoul dgo. will handle.
 * gaughen sings let it go
<slangasek> bdmurray: others on this list to discuss?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> seems not
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 30 16:48:58 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-30-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> and done
<slangasek> thanks, all
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-27
<doko> cyphermox, jdstrand, cpaelzer, jamespage: MIR meeting ...
<jamespage> o/
<doko> didrocks not here ...
<doko> hmm, where was cyphermox magic URL for the outstanding issues ?
<cpaelzer> hiho
<cpaelzer> doko: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cyphermox/meetings/ubuntu-mir.html
<cpaelzer> I had send him improved versions, but he didn't update yet
<cpaelzer> but I can't find my links either
<cpaelzer> so lets go with these
<doko> or the new ones .... I'm currently doing libcue
<cpaelzer> is that one of the bugs that Laney set back to new?
<cpaelzer> FYI https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> glad that you are on that doko
<doko> and libayatana-appindicator should be incomplete, not new
<cpaelzer> well we set it incomplete
<cpaelzer> I don't see why LocutusOfBorg set it back
<cpaelzer> maybe he sees the ping here
<doko> ok, incomplete again
<cpaelzer> it expired a day before
<cpaelzer> thanks doko
<cpaelzer> next link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> anything in there to discuss
<cpaelzer> I can only speak for gpsd which is soon back to new once my work is accepted in Debian
<cpaelzer> but no action on that yet
<doko> L aney ping about tracker-minors, but waiting for a security review
<doko> jdstrand: ^^^
<doko> and libgsf doesn't need a new MIR
<doko> pcre2 comes up again,
<doko> anything else?
<doko> 3
<doko> 2
<doko> 1
<cpaelzer> 1
<doko> 1/2
<cpaelzer> hehe
<doko> ok, nothing else. will ping jdstrand about the outstanding issues and pcre2
<cpaelzer> thanks doko
<LocutusOfBorg> sorry I thought ayatana was going to be discussed after cosmic release again...
<LocutusOfBorg> I'm prodding debian maintainer to answer the outstanding questions
 * LocutusOfBorg done
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-29
 * vorlon waves
<philroche> \o
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 29 16:00:24 2018 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther platonical tobikoch)
<vorlon> tobikoch xnox philroche Odd_Bloke platonical sil2100 cyphermox juliank tdaitx rcj vorlon mwhudson infinity rbalint doko fginther bdmurray
<vorlon> tobikoch: hello
<rbalint> o/
<tobikoch> * vanguarding job shadowing
<tobikoch> * some parallel image build work
<tobikoch> (done)
<tobikoch> xnox:
<xnox> pass
<xnox> philroche,
<philroche> * Release ARM64 AMIs to AWS (see https://blog.ubuntu.com/2018/11/29/running-android-in-the-cloud-with-amazon-ec2-a1-instances and https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-ec2-instances-a1-powered-by-arm-based-aws-graviton-processors/ )
<philroche> * Updates to ubuntu_watch_packages to render package stats to HTML (see https://github.com/philroche/ubuntu-watch-packages and https://private-fileshare.canonical.com/~philroche/ubuntu_watch_packages/package-stats.html)
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> (done)
<philroche> Odd_Bloke:
<chiluk> o/
<Odd_Bloke> platonical: You go, I lost track of the time.
<platonical> ok
<platonical> Submitted some backports to xenial- and bionic-proposed:
<platonical> https://code.launchpad.net/~codyshepherd/livecd-rootfs/bionic-proposed-snaps-manifest/+merge/359645
<platonical> https://code.launchpad.net/~codyshepherd/livecd-rootfs/xenial-proposed-snaps-manifest/+merge/359649
<platonical> and partner image work
<platonical> (done)
<platonical> sil2100:
<Odd_Bloke> * Mostly out-of-office this last week
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud images vanguard
<Odd_Bloke> * Code review
<Odd_Bloke> * Some unblocking of disco cloud images
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
 * xnox can go too.
<xnox> * plugging in usb sticks into mainframe
<xnox>  - it's in!
<xnox>  - it boots kernel
<xnox>  - it fails to find initrd
<xnox> * updating pythons for openssl sru into bionic
<xnox> * getting a few subiquity merge proposals merged for s390x support
<xnox> * helping unwind rust-* packages
<xnox> * more systemd fallout discussions (xenial security reverted)
<xnox> * merges: openssl 1.1.1a, meson
<xnox> * uploading small bits to drop python3.6 from the archive
<xnox> * subiquity zdev design spec review with design
<xnox> (done)
<gaughen> ha love that the usb stick is your first item, xnox
<juliank> sil2100 seems missing
<gaughen> juliank, he's trying to find rand
<juliank> it's a tool in openssl, see rand(1ssl)
<vorlon> cyphermox:
<vorlon> juliank:
<juliank> * synced networkd-dispatcher
<juliank> * send a merge request to networkd-dispatcher upstream
<juliank> * wrote and fixed tests for unattended-upgrades for devrelease "auto"
<juliank> * some emails
<juliank> * some upstream apt discussions
<juliank> * prepared a security update for redis in bionic (bug 1805822), gotta keep my vps secure
<ubottu> bug 1805822 in redis (Ubuntu Bionic) "CVE-2018-11218, CVE-2018-11219, CVE-2018-12326 forward-port for bionic" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805822
<juliank> * working on some merges
<juliank> * off tomorrow - going cycling, deploying server, and/or baking christmas cookies
<juliank> (done)
<cyphermox> o/
<juliank> hey cyphermox :)
<cyphermox> - Netplan:
<cyphermox>  - add tunnel support, manual testing, still missing doc
<cyphermox>  - writing unit tests for tunnel, integration tests still TODO
<cyphermox>  - investigating MAC/MTU apply behavior due to networkd matching
<cyphermox>  - SRU for MAC/rename issues on bonds/virtual devices
<cyphermox>  - reworked unit tests: not a single humongous .py anymore
<cyphermox>  - more test rework: integration tests
<cyphermox>  - briefly investigated moving away from nose for test runner
<cyphermox> - verification for grub SRUs
<cyphermox> - discussed tpm2-based disk encryption
<cyphermox> - upstream plymouth patch for keyboard deactivation
<cyphermox> (done)
<vorlon> tdaitx: did you make it back?
<vorlon> rcj is off
<vorlon>  * short week, off last Thu/Fri for Thanksgiving
<vorlon>  * working on a minimal-change respin of Ubuntu 18.04.1 server live image to fix wrong apt sources.list on install
<vorlon>  * working on requisitioning port compute nodes into new canonistack region
<vorlon>  * prep discussions for Ubuntu Core sprint next week that I'll be attending remotely
<vorlon>  * archive transitions
<vorlon>  * admiring the work on the ARM64 Amazon roll-out
<vorlon>  * code reviews (livecd-rootfs, netplan)
<vorlon>  * next week:
<vorlon> infinity not here
<vorlon>   * working shifted hours to be in the same logical TZ as South Africa
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> rbalint:
<rbalint> * adding more fixes to unattended-upgrades SRUs
<rbalint> * u-u SRU verifications
<rbalint> * bzr -> git conversion work
<rbalint>   - announcing: email ubuntu-devel + http://balintreczey.hu/blog/migrating-from-bazaar-to-git-on-launchpad-just-got-easier/
<rbalint>   - optionally include bzr metadata in git commit msgs
<rbalint> * new round of u-u fixes for newly found issues
<rbalint> * wireshark new upstream release 2.6.5
<rbalint> * upgrade twisted to 18.9.0 upstream releaes in progress
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> - got some transitions around icu migrated, but new ones piling up again
<doko> - more merges, ftbfs fixes
<doko> - gcc 7.4 release candidate, binutils update
<doko> - javahelper fix, causing some ftbfs in disco
<doko> - first gcc-9 packages available, preparing a test rebuild for the xmas season
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox> vorlon: means you reviewed the netplan WPA Enterprise code?
<vorlon> cyphermox: that one not yet, but I reviewed the tunnels, did you see my comments?
<cyphermox> I didn't look at that yet
<vorlon> fginther:
<fginther> * Lots of partner meetings
<fginther> * Working on an updated job posting
<fginther> (done)
<fginther> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> updated daisy not to write strange releases to BucketMetadata thereby
<bdmurray>   eventually cleaning up First and Last seen column on main page
<bdmurray> modified whoopsie to write OOPS ID to .uploaded file (LP: #1582470)
<bdmurray> modified sru-report to no longer list Kernel PPA section (LP: #1720248)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1582470 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "should put OOPS ID / URL in .uploaded file" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1582470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1720248 in ubuntu-archive-tools "sru-report: Remove "Kernel PPA" section" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1720248
<bdmurray> also modified it to highlight incomplete bug report (LP: #1720249)
<bdmurray> bionic, cosmic sru verification of LP: #1797384
<bdmurray> after overriding multiple nautilus false positive regressions had it fully
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1720249 in ubuntu-archive-tools "sru-report: Color code Incomplete bugs differently" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1720249
<bdmurray>   phased for Ubuntu 18.04
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797384 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Cosmic) "release upgrader has no icon in gnome-shell dock" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797384
<bdmurray> xenial SRU verification of LP: #1797209
<bdmurray> reported LP: #1805475 re u-r-u and computer-janitor
<bdmurray> tested, uploaded removal of computer-janitor code from dist-upgrader
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-mate bug LP: #1805653
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797209 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Cosmic) "do-release-upgrade should block release upgrades in some circumstances" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797209
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805475 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-release-upgrader crashed with AttributeError: '_NamespacePath' object has no attribute 'sort'" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805475
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805653 in ubuntu-mate-artwork (Ubuntu) "launching firefox from terminal reveals Gtk-WARNING" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805653
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager, u-r-u fixes for LP: #1798618 and LP: #1795024
<bdmurray> fixed u-r-u using a negative number for free space needed LP: #1786484
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798618 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "confusing error message with 'do-release-upgrade -d' and Prompt=lts" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798618
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1795024 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "setting release-upgrades Prompt to never can cause confusing behavior" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1795024
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1786484 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "free space need for /usr could be negative which is wrong" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1786484
<bdmurray> â done
<vorlon> questions over status?
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> bug 1805183
<ubottu> bug 1805183 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolved constantly restarts on Bionic upgraded from Xenial" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805183
<vorlon> hmm
<bdmurray> I haven't investigated it but it might be worth having someone look at.
<vorlon> agreed, putting it in the queueu
<bdmurray> I had bug 1591427 languishing in some forgotten tab and tested it again with the 18.04 server, not subiquity, iso and was able to recreate it.
<ubottu> bug 1591427 in pkgsel (Ubuntu) "Installer gives user option to deactivate automatic updates, yet automatic upgrade of security packages are on by default" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1591427
<bdmurray> Maybe its not worth investigating with the move to subiquity.
<juliank> wgat's the option doing?
<bdmurray> -security is setup in Unattended-Upgrades Allowed-Origins
<bdmurray> which conflicts with "no automatic updates"
<vorlon> I think in terms of overall expected experience, the bug is in pkgsel's description of the option, not in the behavior
<rbalint> i think the debconf question being ignored causes that
<vorlon> i.e. we don't want the user to have an option in d-i that actually disables automatic security updates
<bdmurray> ah, that makes sense
<rbalint> the fix in LP: #1577215
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1577215 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Origin pattern is unexpected on dpkg-reconfigure" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1577215
<vorlon> (so probably medium-low priority bug on the non-default installer)
<bdmurray> cyphermox: is there any reason to keep you assigned?
<sil2100> eh...
 * sil2100 forgot about the meeting again
<cyphermox> wat?
<sil2100> I'm bad with meetings this week
<bdmurray> if you were paying attention you'd know you were assigned. ;-)
<vorlon> sil2100: hi :) want to give us status after bdmurray finishes up?
<sil2100> I'll prep one real quick
<cyphermox> well, if someone else wants to do the pksel part of it
<bdmurray> bug 1803786 I gess we should just do it
<ubottu> bug 1803786 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-support-status should report 10 years of support for Ubuntu 18.04 LTS" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803786
<vorlon> uh
<vorlon> the 5 years beyond the 5 years is ESM
<rbalint> is this public?
<vorlon> so I don't think that should be advertised in ubuntu-support-status as the support length?
<bdmurray> there's a url in the bug
<vorlon> commented now on the bug, disagreeing with the proposed change
<bdmurray> well the quote in the blog is misleading then as it doesn't mention ESM
<vorlon> yes
<chiluk> As someone on the outside, I had no clue it was just ESM.
<chiluk> Good luck with that communication.
<vorlon> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2018/11/16/%23ubuntu-release.html#t19:24
<rbalint> so it is not official really
<bdmurray> bug 1797335 looks interesting
<ubottu> bug 1797335 in glibc (Ubuntu) "strstr() on ubuntu18.04 8 times slower than on ubuntu16" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797335
<juliank> wow
<doko> that's open for a long time, untouched.
<bdmurray> 2 months isn't a long time in Launchpad
<bdmurray> Okay so somebody will comment on that bug then, yes?
<vorlon> I guess so :)
<bdmurray> bug 1801439 is the last one
<ubottu> bug 1801439 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "Unable to add software sources via the software-properties" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801439
<bdmurray> that seems worth taking on
<rbalint> bdmurray, the software-properties-qt is in universe
<rbalint> does -gtk work ok?
<bdmurray> I suspect it'll fail but will test it create a card if needed.
<bdmurray> that's it
<sil2100> Should I just paste my status update?
<gaughen> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/cosmic/update_excuses_by_team.html
<doko> LINK http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/cosmic/update_excuses_by_team.html
<gaughen> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/disco/update_excuses_by_team.html
<juliank> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/disco/update_excuses_by_team.html
<doko> LINK https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
<rbalint> i'm already on twisted
<doko> currently doing java-common
<doko> anyone automake-1.16? s390x only
<doko> and ubuntu-image?
<sil2100> I'm looking at ubuntu-image, I *fixed* it
<sil2100> I mean, still might need some re-runs here and there
<gaughen> sil2100, did you find some rand?
<sil2100> But I did the 'xnox' thing to get rid of the py36 env thing
<sil2100> gaughen: not yet!
<doko> sil2100: then please give back the tests (I did it now for the pyyaml trigger)
<vorlon> sil2100: yes; is that your status?
<sil2100> - Preparing for trip next week
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases (not as many as usually though)
<sil2100> - Testing ubuntu-image 1.5
<sil2100>   * Pushing out a hotfix version to fix the strange py36 failure
<sil2100> - Pi3 armhf/arm64 work:
<sil2100>   * Lots of testing trying to figure out the reasoning for the images not booting
<sil2100>   * Tweaked the uboot.env to fit the bigger kernel - stuff now boots
<sil2100>   * Created a temporary livefs project for testing the whole build process
<sil2100>   * Iterated on the cosmic image, making it build on livefs, pushing out missing fixes
<sil2100>   * Iterating on the bionic image, finding missing pieces and making it build the image
<sil2100>   * Checking on the spamming of firmware messages on the console on bionic
<sil2100>   * Started cleaning up all the branches
<sil2100>   * Released livecd-rootfs and u-boot to disco
<sil2100>   * Preparing SRU paperwork + the SRU backports
<sil2100>   * Prepared ubuntu-cdimage changes for the new raspi3 devices
<sil2100> - Preparations for the sprint meetings next week
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> doko: yeah, I pushed the buttons already
<sil2100> Will make sure those are passing now with the new version
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 29 16:55:13 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-29-16.00.moin.txt
 * tribaal waves hi to everyone
<juliank> hey tribaal
<tribaal> hey juliank
<sil2100> o/
<tribaal> sil2100: \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-26
<doko> o/
<didrocks> hey
<bittin_> Hello, any kernel team meeting going on?
<bittin_> didrocks: or been earlier today? i have this meeting in my Google calendar and have some spare time as i am switching to Android tommorow so no point in watching a podcast on twit.tv about iOS :P
<didrocks> bittin_: I'm not part of the kernel team, unsure at what time their meeting is
<bittin_> didrocks: ah alright sorry, confused you being so
<bittin_> https://i.imgur.com/KV6qrlw.png should be now according to my Google Cal
<bittin_> didrocks: another question you know where to report problems with Totem?
<didrocks> bittin_: you should use launchpad. Try ubuntu-bug totem
<bittin_> ill do thanks
<bittin_> will do*
<didrocks> yw
<bittin_> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/totem/issues/377
<bittin_> Anyone know how to create a stack trace with Debug Symbols?
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-28
<rbalint> o/
<juliank> o/
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 28 16:01:13 2019 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<sil2100> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<sil2100> bdmurray cyphermox vorlon xnox rbalint doko tdaitx sil2100 mwhudson infinity juliank waveform
<sil2100> I guess bdmurray is off today?
<sil2100> cyphermox: ^
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> -shim rviews
<cyphermox> - netplan NM plugin: building libnetplan, compiling against it for NM reader code
<cyphermox> - grub bionic SRU for loopback support
<cyphermox> - preparing walinuxagent update and testing that
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> vorlon is off today, so xnox: ^
<sil2100> I guess no xnox around?
<sil2100> rbalint: ^
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * fix & SRUs for LP: #1853343
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853343 in wslu (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] Please detect sound and X server in WSL2, too" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853343
<rbalint> * triaging & SRUs for LP: #1853861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853861 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Unattended-upgrades silently does not apply updates when MinimalSteps is disabled and there are autoremovable kernels" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853861
<rbalint> * uploaded vmdk-stream-converter to experimental again
<rbalint> * merges: console-setup, acpid
<rbalint> * trainings
<rbalint> * fix and SRU for LP: #1848211 , in focal-proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848211 in valgrind (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] valgrind fails to use debug symbols from glib/gtk" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848211
<rbalint> (done)
<sil2100> doko: ^
<sil2100> Ok, let's skip doko as well
<sil2100> tdaitx: ^
<tdaitx> * dl-lookup error on libjawt (LP: #1838740)
<tdaitx>   - comparing results with adoptopenjdk jdk-11 build
<tdaitx>   - openjdk-lts rebuilds to test some changes
<tdaitx> * apport fixes (LP: #1851806)
<tdaitx> * openjdk reports on error tracker
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1838740 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu Focal) "libjawt.so inconsistency lets JVM crash" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1838740
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx> sil2100: go ahead ;-)
<sil2100> - Kernel reviews, lots of different kernel cranking
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Work on new Pi images and stuff
<sil2100> - Training
<sil2100> - Did more testing of the langpack sanity-report, merged it to l-o-m
<sil2100> - Uploaded ubuntu-image 1.8 to focal and the SRU queues, waiting for review
<sil2100> - Looked into ubuntu-image system-boot partition not having expected label - all good
<sil2100> - Did some test builds of the imx6 images - some livecd-rootfs/cdimage changes needed for multi-volume support
<sil2100> - Investigating screen-reader not staying enabled after installation on the target system
<sil2100>   * This seemed to have regressed with our switch to gnome
<sil2100> - Booking travel
<sil2100> (done)
<doko> oops
<doko> - Python 3.6/3.7 backports now in bionic/cosmic/eoan
<doko> - binutils 2.34 packaging done.
<doko> - Updated GCC packaging to not build all the -dbg packages
<doko> - Started with GCC 10 packaging. Need to get this into a state that I can do test rebuilds before the Christmas break.
<doko> - Some Python2 removal / Python 3.8 work.
<doko> (done)
<juliank> no mwhudson, no infinity probably
<juliank> * working half days
<juliank> * Merged a ton of APT and python-apt merge requests
<juliank> * More APT patterns
<juliank> * Debugged why apt 1.8.4 sru fails tests (need to sru https://git.dpkg.org/cgit/dpkg/dpkg.git/diff/?id=6e42d508d)
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> waveform:
<waveform> * Testing several arm64 pi images related to LP: #1854347
<waveform> - Numerous theories tested including boot script contents, header contents, CRC calculations, and finally low-level file-system details (ubuntu-image using mcopy to populate the fs); nothing has panned out so far, although several possibilities have been verifiably eliminated
<waveform> - Prepped reverted flash-kernel as a temporary fix until root cause can be established
<waveform> - Tested arm64 image built with reverted flash-kernel; boots successfully on 3, 3+, and 4
<waveform> * Verified LP: #1311056, investigating patches
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854347 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Eoan) "Boot hang on Pi3B+ arm64 images with the latest boot.scr" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854347
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311056 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "apt-add-repository adds duplicate commented/disabled source lines" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311056
<sil2100> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<sil2100> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<sil2100> Whoops
<sil2100> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<sil2100> Let's do this!
<sil2100> LP: #1845529 - did someone pick this one up?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845529 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<sil2100> Since it feels familiar
<sil2100> Let's card it
<sil2100> LP: #1852772
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852772 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "test_updates_interval fails on focal" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852772
<sil2100> This might be easy to fix
<sil2100> Anyone want to pick that up? I see Corey already has a proposed fix
<sil2100> Might be just a matter of releasing that
<sil2100> Any volunteers?
<sil2100> Ok, let's card it for now
<sil2100> LP: #1852773
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852773 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "test failures on focal due to missing build-depends on gpg and gpg-agent" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852773
<sil2100> Another one that seems to be solved?
<sil2100> Ok, so that's on cyphermox!
<sil2100> He'll make it all better
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> Let's move on
<sil2100> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<sil2100> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<sil2100> hm, ok, that's a lot of packages and actually not a lot of us around today
<sil2100> Is anyone working on any of those currently?
<rbalint> mines are: python-colorama/valinor, dijitso, libcap2
<sil2100> rbalint: I also see systemd blocking a few
<sil2100> rbalint: could you take a look at those if you have cycles?
<rbalint> sil2100, sure
<juliank> I could look at lz4 blocked by mysql and/or gawk blocked by txt2man
<sil2100> Thanks guys
<sil2100> Anyone else wants to pick something up while we're at it?
<doko> juliank: lz4 needs a MIR, llvm started depending on it
<waveform> I can check some of the things blocking psycopg2
<sil2100> We're lacking in people so we won't be able to get all assigned
<waveform> yeah, I'll take postgresql-multicorn and possibly another (just checking)
<doko> shouldn't we leave the postgres stuff to the server team?
<juliank> doko: ok
<sil2100> doko: we could, but I guess it's also something waveform knows, so maybe he could just 'fix it'
<sil2100> hm, I could try looking at the apport ones, but I didn't look into what's up there yet
<sil2100> Ok, I guess that's as much as we can do here right now
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> Everyone booked for travel?
<juliank> missing #topic Chair selection for next meeting?
<cyphermox> yep
<juliank> yes
<waveform> yup
<sil2100> juliank: we don't do that anymore!
<juliank> hmm
<sil2100> juliank: you've been out for too long!
<sil2100> juliank: so nowadays bdmurray is always the chair, I'm filling up for him since he said he might be out
<sil2100> Because of turkey
<juliank> yes, true
<juliank> template needs update :D
<sil2100> s/up/in?
<sil2100> juliank: I don't see it on cyphermox's template though!
<juliank> but on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/MeetingScript
<sil2100> Ah
<sil2100> I didn't even know about that one
<cyphermox> well it's also usually bdmurray now
<juliank> yup
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 28 16:32:26 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-11-28-16.01.moin.txt
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<tdaitx> thanks sil2100!
 * mwhudson waves at the meeting
