#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-17
<plovs> anybody awake?
<froud> yes
<plovs> saw your mails, replied as well
<froud> thanks
<plovs> morning all
<froud> African greetings all
<plovs> froud: do you know how to connect to svn through proxy with passord?
<froud> plovs, I have some idea, but it depends on the proxy, firewall etc.
<plovs> squid, 80 blocked at firewall level
<plovs> need to go out through proxy
<plovs> froud: what kind of an outline did you have in mind?
<froud> plovs, you mean for admin
<plovs> yes
<froud> I am hacking a rough outline for admin guide and will commit soon. This will give us a starting point so we can all collaborate
<plovs> ok
<froud> Does Ubuntu Server support POSIX ACLs
<froud> I kno wthat std's POSIX 1003.1e and 1003.2c were withdrawn but some distros still support them
<plovs> grep POSIX_ACL=y /boot/config-`uname -r` will say yes
<plovs> i asked it on devel
<froud> OK thanks
<plovs> for ext2/3/jfs and xfs
<plovs> hi enrico
<plovs> enrico: heard anything from corey? i hope he did at least something after all the noise
<enrico> plovs: the last conversation we had is in the channel: he said he won't be able to work on it, I asked to at least commit or send me his last work, so that it won't be lost
<enrico> I'm waiting for a reply to that, but maybe it'll come tomorrow
<enrico> I'm finally home with a couple of hours of time
<enrico> tons of things to do.  Gotta get things moving
<enrico> Is there any breakthrough in the last 2 days of IRC about the Quick Guide and the About Ubuntu document?  Else I can get those moving before doing the IRC report
<enrico> froud: around?
<froud> yep
* enrico waves smiling at the whole channel
<enrico> froud: hi!
<froud> how r u
<enrico> froud: I've been talking with mako about the screenshots, and I'm about to tidy up my IRC log with him and put it up on the wiki.  After I do it (say, in 10 minutes) would you like to have a look?
<froud> sure
<enrico> froud: I'm great!  Sunny day here, just had a pearl milk tea :)
<froud> I stated a section on this in my wiki pages, got as far as TBD :-)
<froud> 30 deg in Johannesburg today
<froud> same as yesterday
<froud> to darn hot
<enrico> (Pearl milk tea: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/av/ophoto/photo/b_img/b1_43.jpg  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boba_milk_tea)
<enrico> (although here it's not called "boba" in any way, but the local name sounds more like "zen zoo")
<plovs> enrico: looking forward to your write-up and the quickguide is completely stalled here, so it would be nice to get that into gear
<enrico> plovs: in the meantime, can you locate a version of the About Ubuntu page in hoary and commit it in a new directory in the repository?
<plovs> enrico: i don't have hoary yet
<enrico> froud: I added a "Including screenshots" section in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuickGuide
<enrico> froud: please take a look and tell me what you think.  I feel strange about that "python script" part, but the rest seems senseful to me
<enrico> plovs: ok.  I'll hammer the devel channel a bit more
<froud> enrico, 
<froud> may I suggest that people do not need so many screen shots, especially when they are using an online help system
<froud> I would limit screenshots to only when required
<froud> for example
<froud> to show the state of a screen while interating with it
<enrico> froud: if I understood correctly, this is mainly targeted as a pocket book, with one or two pages per major application.  It would make sense, in this optics, to have at least one screenshot per featured application
<froud> so it will be in print
<froud> not electronic
<plovs> will we continue using the basic layout of the quickguide as we have it now?
<plovs> eg, follow the menu layout
<plovs> or will we make it task based etc what do you guys think?
<enrico> I understand the idea is making it application-based, like a guided tour of the distro
<enrico> In this case, follow the meny layout makes  sense
<froud> enrico, so limit each section to a capture of the main screen
<froud> enrico, there are some more things to add about screen capts
<froud> use a common theme across all
<froud> something that uses a color palette that is B/W printer freindly 
<enrico> I'd say that using the default theme makes lots of sense
<enrico> I also hope that the default theme can be B/W friendly
<froud> capture at 72 dpi
<enrico> And limiting each section to a capture of the main screen, yes, I think so, although in some cases there may be some big relevant part
<enrico> froud: 72, how come not 100?
<froud> 72 is good for online raters
<froud> rasters
<froud> never resize screen capts
<froud> decide to use GIF or PNG
<froud> for print
<froud> we need tif at higher resolution
<enrico> PNG
<froud> OK
<enrico> How do we get a higher resolution TIF easily?
<froud> we need common and constant convention of terms when referecing gui components
<froud> enrico, no its a seperate capture
<froud> we can use profiling
<froud> but yelp does not like it
<froud> or does not know what to do with it
<enrico> I don't know what is profiling
<enrico> But then, I'm not a professional writer, and it makes sense that I don't knwo it :)
<froud> so I suggest we transform our profiled documents to another Docbook XML file that way everyting is resolved and only information for that book is loaded so yelp will be quick
<froud> enrico, thats ok
<froud> example
<froud> let s say you want to have a book in print and html formats
<froud> you can mark tags with the condition attribute
<froud> <phrase condition="html">Go Home</phrase>
<froud> <phrase condition="html,pdf">Go Home</phrase>
<froud> <phrase condition="pdf">Go Home</phrase>
<froud> three conditions
<froud> depending on the value of condition the output will or wont be output to the result tree
<froud> The downside in our senario is that we will need to do preprocessing
<froud> yelp does not like conditions
<froud> well yelp does not like many tings
<froud> index
<froud> glossary
<froud> bilio
<froud> and more
<froud> but yelp has many good things
<enrico> Couldn't yelp just ignore all the things it doesn't like?
<enrico> Or anyway, we can easily put up an XSL that throws away all things that yelp doesn't know
* enrico committed aboutubuntu into the repository
<froud> enrico, why have presentational formats in the repos?
<froud> the src should be presentation neutral
<froud> we generate presentation formats
<enrico> froud: that's the current version, that needs to be converted in DocBook :)
<enrico> I'm still going through other things atm (like updating the wiki status pages QuickGuide and AboutUbuntuPage, then I'll be on the IRC report.  If someone has free time to do a conversion and then throw away the .css files, please go on!
<plovs> enrico: sorry convert what? aboutubuntu?
<enrico> plovs: aboutubuntu, yes
<plovs> i'll do it
<plovs> or i'll start, mess up the formatting and ask froud to clean up the mess :-)
<froud> enrico, its better to point to it so we know it has to be done.
* froud commits outline for admin guide
<froud> its a rough idea, I am sure with all our brains we will improve it
* enrico CURSES FIREFOX AND TE WIKI TOGETHER
<enrico> Scenario:
<enrico> Updating the QuickGuide page with a cheat sheet of commands to check it out, make it, test it with yelp and so on
<enrico> Write a "firefox build/quickguide/index.html" line in the page
<enrico> go into a terminal, try it out to see if it's ok
<enrico> firefox opens the page on top of the Quick Guide editing one
<enrico> I click back, the form is reset, I lose all changes
<enrico> BAH!
* plovs just upgraded his home-wiki to moin-1.3.1 very, very nice, plovs doesn't curse, actually whistles...
<froud> enrico, rather than commit presentational formats can we revert to your other method of placing comment in the xml src
<enrico> froud: you mean, you prefer a docbook file which is 100% comments with the HTML in it?
<plovs> froud: nice layout
<plovs> enrico: how can we put stuff fro docbook source on the ubuntulinux site? i would like to get feedback on faqguide
<froud> enrico, better to have link to wiki but if you must copy then just to a copy of the page by draging the pppppppointer down the page selecting it and doing ctrl+c and ctrl+v, then comment that
<enrico> plovs: that has still to be discovered by me.  I can embark on the quest, though
<froud> plovs, thanks
<enrico> plovs: that's not a wiki page: that's the page that is shipped in the ubuntu-artwork package
<froud> plovs, enrico , we can transform to HTML and have link to it
<plovs> enrico: ubuntu-artwork package???
<froud> enrico, I did a commit on about ubuntu just a few days ago
<plovs> froud: the html leaves something to be desired still though
<froud> plovs, ChrisH has a bugzilla to enhance it
<plovs> froud: ok
<enrico> froud: [publishing html]  the problem is not converting and linking it, the problem (to me atm) is knowing where to upload it
<plovs> why don't we put aboutubuntu.xml in the common folder?
<enrico> plovs: yes
<froud> surely that should be simple to resolve
<froud> plovs, hold on that one
<enrico> plovs: I took it from the ubuntu-artwork package sources and I committed it into the wiki
<enrico> froud: [commit on about ubuntu]  sorry, I think I lost that one.  What did you commit?
<plovs> enrico: ok, got you
<froud> see trunk/userguide/about/chap-ubuntu.xml
<enrico> plovs: I still don't know how can we give it back into that package, though
<froud> Its rough
<froud> but if you want to copy paste the text there and comment it I will update and smeld it with the last work I did
<froud> plovs, about having aboutubunt as a common object
<enrico> froud: it may be that we're talking about two different things.  The "About Ubuntu Page" is described here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutUbuntuPage  have a look
<enrico> froud: the text I've committed is what is currently displayed while clicking on "About Ubuntu" in Ubuntu, not a chapter of a book
<froud> ok parts of this will be in the book
<froud> we need to integrate it and create a method by which to generate it
<froud> this will mean a mark target
<froud> essentially I envision just assembling pieces from the books to compile it
<enrico> sorry, what is a "mark target" ?
<froud> make target
<enrico> oh, yes, ok, I'm with you
<froud> we will still need a driver file
<enrico> it would be really neat to assemble it from other things.  Also, I would avoid having too many ubuntu descriptions around :)
<froud> yes there are already to many
<froud> in addition, we need to consider a balance in the description between desktop and server
<enrico> oh, desktop and server could definitely share the same about ubuntu part
<ChrisH> Wow... the mailing list is busier than ubuntu-devel@ :)
<froud> hello ChrisH 
<ChrisH> froud: Morning. :)
<plovs> ChrisH: we know how much you insist on writing all inportant decisions on the mailing-list, so ... especially for you
<ChrisH> plovs: Yeah, very friendly. :) Someone please give me a secretary that keeps track of the list and sums it up. :)
<ChrisH> enrico: you should write a mailing list summary... :P
<enrico> ChrisH: gosh! :)
<froud> plovs, enrico, I will take a look at the about ubuntu thing
<plovs> enrico: and a summery-summery
<froud> Umm is anyone doing bugzilla's for all this
<plovs> froud: we try to resolve it before it reaches that stage
<froud> plovs,  there is so much to do that we all can forget
<froud> put it in the bugz and then it cant be forgotten
* froud creates https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5243 "create make target for the about ubuntu page"
<froud> I will move the content from aboutubuntu and find a way that we can auto generate this page
<enrico> froud: that is cool!
<froud> the css files wil move to libs/
<enrico> froud: I'd like to make a TakingScreenshots page for the docteam.  You mentioned you started something similar in your wiki page: do you have a link?
<froud> the png will mov to images/
<enrico> I could integrate that and what you told me before
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<froud> got as far as TBD
<enrico> Ah, ok.  I was looking for a SeanWheller page but I couldn't find it
<enrico> Ok, found.  That'll be easy to integrate :)
<froud> I have not created a bugz for this. Should I
<enrico> I can do it
<froud> ok
<enrico> froud: do you prefer me to add the part about screenshots in the big AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject or in a separate TakingScreenshots page?  I'd prefer the second one, so that it's easy to link to that specific piece of knowledge from many parts of the wiki
<froud> enrico, I was trying to consolidate this information for now. Once we have a stable outlook then we can split
<froud> my logic was to work in one place
<froud> Although I do have the Interchange Protocol in a sperate page as it was to big
<froud> my rule of tumb was small peices in /AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<froud> I must go back to paid work c ya later
<enrico> froud: ok, so I'll put everything in that page for now
<enrico> froud: added to bugzilla: Bug 5244
<enrico> AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject starts being quite long already
<froud> :-( yes I know
<froud> but we need to better arrnage the documentation area on wiki before we split it
<enrico> Talk with the gardener :)
* enrico puts on the gardener hat
<enrico> How can I help you reorganizing the documentation area?
<enrico> froud: about the screenshots, you say for print we need TIFF at higher resolutions.  Which resolution you mean?  Can the 300DPI as the standard for color printing?  And how do we capture screenshots at that resolution?
<froud> enrico, point 1 will post a proposal to th elist :-)
<enrico> froud: proposal, about what?
<enrico> froud: Added the screenshots part to the AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<froud> "How can I help you reorganizing the documentation area"
<froud> I will submit an outline and structure for the framework
<enrico> Oh, ok.  Sure, do it.
<enrico> froud: you can have a look at AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject's part about screenshots now if you want
<froud> Ok I will need to make explanation about higher resolutions and TIFF
<froud> I must go back to paid work.
<enrico> And how to take screenshots at resolutions different than the one currently used by X
<enrico> sure.  That's in bugzilla, I'll add a note 
<enrico> can I assign it to you?
<enrico> plovs: still around?  Would you like to make a page similar to the QuickGuide page but about the FAQGuide, and possibly also an entry on the FAQ Guide in the DocumentationTeamFAQ?
<froud> yes assign it to me
<froud> I suggest we have links to from these Doc Spec pages to the HTML versions
<plovs> enrico: let me see ...
<froud> lunch
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FAQGuide [done] 
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamFAQ [done] 
<froud> plovs, I love the Status part
<froud> plovs in chap-installremove.xml you added a warning
<froud> <warning>
<froud>         <para> I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package
<froud>             installer, this is just a draft. </para>
<froud>     </warning>
<froud> may I suggest it is better to put these types of things into comments like this, so we can find them easily
<froud> <!-- FIX ME:  I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package installer, this is just a draft. -->
<froud> oh and add your name
<froud> <!-- FIX ME:  Alexander: I do not have hoary yet so I can not really write a description of the new package installer, this is just a draft. -->
<froud> That way you can find all <!-- FIX ME: or Just <!-- FIX ME: Alexander:
<froud> If we put these things in xml they are boun dto be missed and inlcuded in the distribution
* froud hopes people agree
<plovs> froud: agree, will do next time
<plovs> i make many mistakes, but most of them only once :-)
<plovs> froud: i'll put the status also  in bugzilla
<froud> Ok I have done it for you.
<froud> plovs, mistakes are good, the fater you make them the faster you learn
<froud> faster
<plovs> froud: :-)
<plovs> how do i add components to documentation in bugzilla?
<froud> you have an account
<plovs> yes
<froud> just add a new bug to the documentation category
<froud> assign yourself
<froud> or who ever
<plovs> on the right of the page it says package, at the moment only general, we should have our four guides there
<froud> Umm erico was working on that
<froud> enrico, 
<froud> at present we dont have a component list
<froud> just flat tree
<froud> :-)
<froud> right back to work
<plovs> froud: thanks, we can fix it later when we have more bugs
<enrico> back
<enrico> Eh.  To add components you should send a mail to jdub asking for it.  I did various days ago, requesting a component for the installation manual maintained by Colin, but I got no answer
<enrico> I can ping again
<enrico> froud: reassinged the screenshot bug to you.  I'm setting the priority to P1, as screenshots are probably the major thing in the Quick Guide (that is, every section probably starts with an example screenshot of the application and moves from there, so not knowing how to make screenshot is quite a blocker there
<enrico> If we can come up with a list of components that we would need, I can send a big batch in a single mail
<froud> enrico, components include each document User Guide, FAQ Guide, Quick Guide, Installation Guide, Admin Guide
<froud> technically we dont have an installation guide in the repos
<froud> but I think Kamion? need it
<enrico> Yes, because we can't maintain it as it's now maintained in debian plus patches maintained by Kamion, and we really don't want to mess with that, but we do want to send patches and bugs to Kamion
<froud> yes
<froud> upstream is larger and faster
<enrico> Sending a(nother) mail to jdub
* froud is technically away
<froud> enrico, I have remove dthe folder aboutubuntu/ the content is temp in userguide/about/chap-ubuntu.xml will fix it soon and close bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5243
<enrico> froud: cool!  In the meantime, I got jdub on ICQ
<enrico> Sent him new list of packages for bugzilla and request for wishes for the about page, and asked him to read my mail :)
<enrico> plovs: cool the FAQGuide descriptions!
<enrico> plovs: I mean, the FAQGuide descriptions are cool! :)
<enrico> going out
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> msg silbs Hi Jan :-)
<ChrisH> msg sivang hi... ;)
<ChrisH> sivang: Who is silbs? ;)
<Kinnison> silbs is Jane Silber. Canonical's uberfantastic organiser amongst her many talents
<sivang> Kinnison: hehe :-) Hi Kinnison !
<ChrisH> Just teasing Sivan. :)
<Kinnison>  
<sivang> Kinnison:    
* ChrisH 's irssi has just exploded
<Kinnison> ChrisH: Sorry; should I refrain from hebrew on-channel?
<ChrisH> Kinnison: No problem. :) I'm not fast enough to follow froud... so two lines of what I couldn't even understand are very relaxing. ;)
<Kinnison> ChrisH: hehe
<ChrisH> I merely wonder how you type that...
<Kinnison> Hebrew keyboard layout ;-)
<plovs> hi all
<ChrisH> There are probably more hebrew characters than latin ones.
<ChrisH> plovs: Hi! :)
<plovs> ChrisH: there are actually less hebrew characters then 26, 22 if i remember correct (correct sivang?)
<ChrisH> As long as you don't ask me to write hebrew documentation...
<plovs> well now that you mention it...
<plovs> how hard is it to create a debian package?
<plovs> it would be nice to package faqguide
<ChrisH> plovs: It's an art and takes a moment to do it right. :) But it's not magical.
<ChrisH> plovs: I could as a Debian Developer to do that. ;)
<ChrisH> s/as/ask/
<ChrisH> plovs: Seriously... I can create the debian/ structure if you want.
<plovs> ChrisH: if you could, then i can maintain it, just the initial start, i looked at the debian new maintainer doc and it is too much reading for now
<plovs> i want to learn it one day but not today
<ChrisH> plovs: And it's outdated and incomplete, too. :(
<ChrisH> plovs: Is there a Makefile already? I don't see one.
<plovs> ChrisH: would be nice to have a small doc about it, maybe you can copy your bash_history about what you did and i can do a write-up?
<ChrisH> plovs: For this special case?
<plovs> ChrisH: for a basic debian package
<ChrisH> plovs: Sounds like rewriting the NM guide.
<ChrisH> plovs: In fact I have that on my to do list already to write a more complete tutorial on doing single and multiple binary packages because information about that is distributed throughout the web.
<plovs> that guide is long and thorough, i would like something like the faq: 1,2,3
<plovs> ChrisH: would be great
<ChrisH> plovs: What schedule do you think of? My guide will surely not be done before the end of January.
<plovs> yesterday?
<plovs> no?
<plovs> ok
<ChrisH> plovs: :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Perhaps I start with a template and we maintain it together until the tutorial is done, okay?
<plovs> but seriously, it would be great, but for now, if you could package it and send me the history, for me that would be enough
<ChrisH> plovs: sure
<plovs> ChrisH: that would be great
<plovs> that meaning: Perhaps I start with a template and we maintain it together until the tutorial is done, okay?
<plovs> :-)
<ChrisH> One thing that would help... we should split the Makefile. I need an own Makefile in the traunk/faqguide/Makefile location. We should consider that.
<sivang> plovs: in need of packaging? 
<sivang> :)
<sivang> what is your due date? :)
<ChrisH> Although... I could use the main Makefile and make it a multiple source package. Okay, that'll do it.
<ChrisH> plovs: Where shall the files be after installation? scrollkeeper? /usr/share/doc/faqguide/html?
<sivang> ChrisH: try to register them against the desktop secion in scrollkeeper. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Did you figure out what is there to do to "register" it?
<sivang> ChrisH: sort of,
<sivang> you create an OMF file describing your file,
<sivang> and run dh_scrollkeepr in your rules file,
<sivang> then it tries to register it.
<ChrisH> I assume the package would need to put the XML files somewhere, install an OMF file and run the scrollkeeper reindexing?
<sivang> ChrisH: you need to copy the xml file to the xml files "repo" of scrollkeepr, which is nothing more then a directiry structure in /var/share or /usr/share/scrollkeeper something.
<sivang> shame I didn't take notes from when I managed to install the handbook on my private test of yelp...[hides] 
<ChrisH> sivang: Are you actively working on the debian/ stuff?
<sivang> ChrisH: why? Not touched it in a while..
<ChrisH> sivang: Because that's what plovs asked for. And before screwing your work I though I'd better ask. :)
<sivang> ChrisH: postinst you should have a call to scrollkeepr_update or somethig like that,
<sivang> ChrisH: please copy the current fiels and move some other place before chanign, so I will know where I Started :)
<ChrisH> sivang: yes, sir
<froud> sivang, Kinnison, shalom gevre
<froud> sivang, you got the scrollkeep stuff sorted?
<froud> I have a bugzilla against my name for this, can I assign it to you?
<froud> sivang, if you want a working example of how scrollkeeper works there is one in the GNOME CVS
<sivang> froud,ChrisH there is also a very good one when doing apt-get source doc-base
<froud> ok, so you have it covered. Can I assign the bugz to you
<froud> ChrisH, if you want to split the make then please do so, but see the scrollkeeper stuff for ideas
<froud> sivang, I understand you will make a seperate OMF for each doc
<froud> and so a seperate series ID
<sivang> froud: you need to from what I understood.
* sivang is off to something urget be back later.
<froud> or do you propose a single OMF
<froud> no you can do a single OMF
<froud> just add multiple resources
<froud> but if ChrisH needs to have seperate makefiles then its makes sense to do seperate OMFs
<ChrisH> froud: It's merely a matter of whether every trunk subdirectory (aka "project") is going to become a .deb package or not
<ChrisH> froud: If everything is packaged then we can keep the Makefile where it is.
<ChrisH> froud: After all scrollkeeper/yelp will probably only need the XML files anyway.
<froud> ChrisH, yes. I was not about to get information about the packaging intentions. I assume they will all be packaged in the dist and therefore did not see a need to have multiple make files and OMFs.
<froud> Is this correct
<sivang> froud: from what I've seen in GNOME usually there are seperate OMFs
<sivang> ChrisH: true
<froud> sivang, yes each application has its own OMF
<sivang> ChrisH: it only cares about the xml files to be where it expects it when you run "scrollkeeper_update"
<froud> However a the specification does provide for a single OMF
<sivang> froud: let's have seperate ones.
<froud> accroding to the DTD resource can be one or more
<sivang> froud: yes, but I Want us to have seperate ones as GNOME does.
<froud> why
<froud> we are creating a series
<sivang> froud: would be more easy to take only parts of them and use in seperate places.
<froud> I am not so sure about that
<sivang> froud: trust me.
<froud> hey you go for it
<sivang> froud: We want to follow GNOME guidelines also
<sivang> :)
<sivang> treat each resepctful doc, as an app :)
<froud> The guidelines are not set by GNOME
<sivang> suppose a derivative wants to use only 1 work from us, they have a sperate omf they can already use,
<froud> they are set by the scrollkeeper project at SF
<sivang> better, the intelligent package manager or launchpad infrast. would be able to automatically create speerate packages.
<froud> OK do speak to plov he is implimenting ghelp:app-name calls inthe docs
<froud> which means if downstream creates a package and does not inlcude the other packages, the links are broken
<froud> ChrisH, if sivand does seperate OMFs will you break the makefile and also create a main make in root
<froud> sivang, BTW if follow GNOME are you thinking we need the english version of docs in C/
<ChrisH> froud: I think I won't even need the Makefiles.
<ChrisH> froud: After all we just need the XML for scrollkeeper, right?
<froud> I am concerned about making things to GNOME specific and when KDE comes we will be in a corner
<froud> ChrisH, no we will need them
<froud> The make files will need to autocreate certain files
<ChrisH> froud: But probably not for a debian package. Or do you think there should be precompiled HTML files somewhere like in /usr/share/doc/faqguide?
<froud> ChrisH, both methods have ='s and -'s
<froud> Yelp is nice,  but limited
<ChrisH> I wouldn't mind having both formats in the package.
<froud> Static means we need to process
<froud> Problem is when we reach KDE
<froud> KDE does not use scrollkeeper or yelp
<froud> I would like, if possible, to avoid to much lockin to KDE
<ChrisH> froud: do you know which files scrollkeeper would need?
<froud> ChrisH, I suggest reading http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/documentation/writing_scrollkeeper_omf_files/index.html
<ChrisH> froud: oki doki
<froud> The do a checkout of :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome/gnome-docu
<ChrisH> froud: so the OMFs are the control files for scrollkeeper... I see.
<froud> yes
<froud> the problem I have is what category to use
<ChrisH> froud: do we have them already?
<froud> there is no category for ubuntu
<froud> we have never had one
<ChrisH> is there no "private" section? :)
<froud> see file:/usr/share/scrollkeeper/Templates/C/
<froud> there is the controlled list
<ChrisH> How has it been done before? After all we have a "help" function already.
<froud> as I see it we should be in General|GeneralLinux|GeneralLinuxDistributionsUbuntu
<froud> dunno I asked on devel, but did not get much joy
<froud> perhaps you know where to ask
<ChrisH> Nope.
<froud> sivang, what about you
<froud> oh he's away
<ChrisH> Can't we provide our own scrollkeeper stuff if we don't provide OMFs? After all there has been a way before.
<froud> No 
<froud> I think people just called yelp filename.xml
<froud> to work well integration to scrollkeeper is good
<froud> for example, plovs wants to link between FAQ and User Guide
<froud> to do this he needs to use ghelp:userguide from faq
<froud> anyway I will leave it with you guys if you and sivang want it. But then I want to reassign the bugz against my name
<froud> no point all of us doing it
<froud> ChrisH, what is a good way to decribe the properties of the default ubuntu theme?
<froud> for example in KDE we use
<froud> Window decoration: Keramik (but take screenshots without window decoration if possible)
<froud>       Widget style: Plastik
<froud>       Colors: KDE Default
<froud>       Background: Flat color - Color must be white
<froud> Do you know of a way to do this for GNOME
<Kinnison> "Use the Ubuntu default theme"
<Kinnison> describes 100% of the look
<Kinnison> If you edit the theme; it gets a new name
<froud> Kinnison, ok where can I find a description of the properties
<Kinnison> In the theme dialog
<froud> right that is why I want to specifu its properties
<froud> yes, I am looking for a short way to decribe it like above
<Kinnison> Why?
<froud> So people can rest to the default and verify their settings
<froud> Kinnison, see the taking screeshots section in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject
<Kinnison> froud: The theme which calls itself the ubuntu default theme *is* the right grouping
<Kinnison> if you change from the defaults; it creates a new theme
<Kinnison> implicitly
<froud> Yes
<froud> this is why I want people to have exact settings so they can adjust
<froud> the idea is that everyone will use the same look/feel and specs for taking screen capts
<froud> This adds consitancy and enhances the look and feel
<Kinnison> I'm still failing to understand why "Ubuntu Default Theme" is less than 100% of what you need to say to people in order to enforce that look/feel?
<froud> what is the person changed from default? How do they get back
<froud> I also still have to test Ubuntu Default for B/W print outputs
<ChrisH> froud: looks like the /usr/share/yelp/toc.xml is invoked when running "yelp" without arguments... so that's probably why they don't need OMF files
<froud> I think it will be ok 
<froud> Yes
<froud> They just called yelp /usr/share/yelp/toc.xml
<froud> If we want to use scrollkeeper then we need to register
<froud> I dont mind wich way
<froud> its just that sivang and plovs wante dto do it
<Kinnison> froud: by going to the theme dialog and chosing the default theme again
<froud> Kinnison, yes, now what if that theme was modified and overwritten
<froud> Lik eI did :-)
<froud> Actually I know what the Ubuntu default looked like
<Kinnison> froud: You fucked with the theme directly? On disk?
<froud> but not how it was specified
<froud> :-) sucker for toys
<froud> what can I say
<froud> I play with lot sof things on the disk
<froud> just to see how they work
<froud> and to explain stuff
<Kinnison> So you went and messed with the ubuntu-artwork provided files
<froud> yes
<froud> I am sur eyou have dne this no
<Kinnison> So say "The theme called 'Ubuntu Default Theme' as provided in the ubuntu-artwork package"
<froud> OK, that's a great idea
<froud> thanks
<Kinnison> froud: I don't mess with them because then I lose my tweaks if I upgrade the package
<froud> I have two boxes
<froud> one I can trash the other I am gentle with :-)
<plovs> the adminguide crashes my yelp
<froud> Hmm
<froud> Its not yelp ready
<froud> no id attributes
<froud> yet
<froud> was going to insert them once we have a stable outline
<plovs> ah, ok
<froud> transform to html with oxygen
<froud> :-)
<plovs> no problem
<froud> BTW hows it going with Oxygen
<plovs> i do most of my work through ssh, so only in the evening i sometimes use it, it is nice but big, i can't find my way around yet
<froud> ok
<froud> enrico, 
<froud> I have done some investigation into the screencaptures. I think that if we use 120ppi we can use a single PNG image for dual purpose
<enrico> you mean dpi, isn't it?
<enrico> How come 120?  Sounds large for an HTML page, and not much for printing (I know default dpi for colour pictures in magazines is 300)
<ChrisH> I probably missed it... are we going the graphical way again? Didn't the translators complain that they didn't want to take screenshots for every version and every language?
<enrico> ChrisH: have a look at QuickGuide, I added the result of a conversation with mako about translated screenshots
<plovs> froud: svn up look at creating boot disks in adminguide what do you think as basic layout? how to make stuff bold and headerlike?
<froud> ok
<froud> just recovering from driving my box into a wall
<enrico> plovs: hello.  In the WikiWishlist page, you said that "attachments/pictures somewhat works, just a pain to use".  However, I found no way to make them work.  How do you show a picture in a Moin page in Zwiki?
<froud> plovs, nice I particularly like <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:mkboot">man-page</ulink>
<plovs> enrico: that was a note from the ReST days
<enrico> plovs: so, in Moin it just doesn't work?
<plovs> enrico: how shall i say it positively? maybe in the future it will
<plovs> froud: something like that should work in the latest yelp
<ChrisH> enrico: should I find any screenshots in the quickguide already?
<froud> plovs, did you test it
<enrico> ChrisH: not afaik, as we still haven't formalised how the screenshots would exactly fit there
<plovs> froud: no, adminguide crashes yelp
<ChrisH> enrico: what exactly did you mean I should look at?
<froud> enrico, I am closing a doc on screencaptures
<enrico> froud: talking about that, where did the 120dpi number come from?  And how do I run an application at 120dpi to take a screenshot of it?
<froud> enrico, 120ppi
<froud> not dpi
<enrico> oh... what's the difference between a dot and a point?
<plovs> those italians...
<enrico> ChrisH: wiki.ubuntu.com/QuickGuide, go down the page, there are some words on screenshots
<froud> ok, long story
<enrico> froud: uhm... you can skip it if you want] 
<enrico> froud: but in change for skipping it, you should disclose how to take a screenshot of an application at 120ppi :)
<froud> but if we use 120 ppi we can have a single image for both print and html
<froud> yes,        trying to do this with GIMP
<froud> is everyone OK using GIMP?
<ChrisH> enrico: okay... 
<plovs> corey had some really nice stuff with svg as well, btw
<plovs> but gimp is fine with me
<froud> yes svg is an option, but Yelp screams blue murder with SG
<plovs> yelp does support svg
<froud> SVG
<froud> :-)
<froud> so many pro's and con's wish there was just a standard for it
<plovs> maybe we should settle for fast and simple for now
<froud> fast and simple now, not so good in long run :-)
<plovs> ok, let's rephrase that to lean and mean
<froud> take the time now you dont want to redo 100's of screen capts later
<froud> :-)
<froud> enrico, 
<froud> PNG capture for multi-output captures a screen at an 8-bit optimized indexed color depth and 120 ppi, which is well suited for printing to a 600-dpi laser printer and for color display to the screen.
<plovs> wont thos pics become really big?
<enrico> How big would those images be?
<froud> I am documenting the method for GIMP
<froud> as small as possible
<froud> ?
<froud> :-)
<froud> they are larger
<froud> but we gain by having dual use
<enrico> Yes, but knowing a bit of the order of magnitude would help
<froud> 6 of this, half a dozen of the other
<froud> not much bigger
<froud> if varies according to the screen size being captured
<enrico> Order of magnitude 6 means 100000bytes per images?
<froud> so what do you want
<froud> two images
<froud> 1 low res
<froud> and 1 high
<froud> this takes you well paste this point :-)
<plovs> are we talking 15kb vs 18kb or 15kb vs 1.2mb ?
<froud> I am trying to find the best comprise from all sides
<froud> +-20KB
<froud> PNG at 120 ppi
<froud> is much bigger
<enrico> froud: have you taken a screenshot at 120ppi?  If yes, could you please tell the dimensions in pixels of the application, and the file size?
<froud> Ok you will see. Hold da horses
* enrico holds da horses
* enrico 's horses cooled down and started grazing peacefully
* froud struggles with GIMP
<enrico> BTW, I read in the logs that yesterday you wondered how to register things with scrollkeeper.  It's actually done automatically by Debian tools in the Debian packaging, so we don't have to worry about that.  Sivan is taking care of the Debian packaging, promised some nice things recently, but hasn't moved yet
<sivang> enrico: I will be swamped until the 10th so ChrisH is going to fill in in the meanwhile.
<sivang> enrico: GNOME FF
<sivang> enrico: feature freeze..
<enrico> sivang: ok, cool!
<mako> enrico: ciao
<enrico> mako: ciao!
<sivang> mako: hey mako
<enrico> mako: we're making advances with screenshots
<mako> enrico: *great*
<mako> sivang, everyone: hey there
<enrico> mako: we're now discussing ppis, file formats and specific docbook inclusion technicques
<mako> enrico: so quick question about the wiki
<enrico> mako: printed version, screen version and so on
<enrico> mako: please ask
<sivang> mako: do you know how to idents makred code blocks in emacs? :)
<sivang> mako: if you could tell me the shipment or box number of my cd box set, that would be good, as I will try tracking them down using your courier or my mail service.
<mako> sivang: hold up bud :)
<mako> enrico: so, all these links to files were broken in the wiki transition.. some are still broken
<sivang> mako: no prob :) sorry for bombarding.
<mako> enrico: files that wre uploaded
<mako> enrico: i need some of those files now and might as well link them up to the wiki while i'm at it
<mako> enrico: there is one example http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuArtwork
<enrico> mako: eh, good question.  I recently added to WikiWishlist a request for how to link images with Moin format
<mako> enrico: even i can just *get* the files.. non-linked.. it would be good
<enrico> mako: we can't figure out how to do that with the Zwiki moin implementation.
<mako> enrico: that's *very* annoying
<enrico> mako: if you want to retrieve those, you can try making a page in ReST linking htem
<mako> enrico: but ok
<enrico> mako: very annoying
<mako> enrico: so.. are those attachments loaded into the zwiki?
<mako> enrico: or should they be?
<mako> enrico: my bigger problem.. is that i don't even know how to find those old files
<mako> they were in the old wiki. but i can't get to the old wiki anymore!
<mako> hah
<mako> i found it
<enrico> I think they should be: pages in ReST, for example reference and show attached images correctly
<mako> get ready... 
<mako> https://www.ubuntu.com/FrontPage
<enrico> Nice certificate mismatch!
<mako> 18:20 < Kamion> mako: I found it by way of a bug
* mako buries his head into his hands
<enrico> mako: that's however wiki.ubuntu.com/FrontPage, or www.ubuntu.com/wiki/FrontPage
* sivang omgs. thay witness the old wiki!!!
<enrico> mako: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage is also ok
<enrico> mako: ah, ok, you get it from the old wiki
<mako> i need the old wiki
<mako> because not all of the attachments were uploaded
<enrico> mako: oh, cool
<mako> so i'm going to fix up the artwork page.. which , evidently, will mean changing the format
* mako add zwiki to his shitlist.. AGAIN
<enrico> so it seems.  Do we have someone that is around to improve zwiki in some reliable way?
<enrico> froud: hello again!
<mako> enrico: yeah.. we're looking to hire someone to do that i think
<sivang> mako: already did it , dozen of times :-/
<enrico> froud: I had a look at the "Taking Screen Captures" section and I'm quite puzzled
<enrico> ehm... gotta repeat that later
<enrico> mako: oh, that'd be nice.  Wanna know another problem with zwiki?
* sivang thinks we should make a problem list of zwiki
<mako> sivang: dude, it's so done :)
<mako> sivang: there's been one since we've had zwiki.. 
<mako> sivang: if we'd known better, we would have had one BEFORE we had zwiki
<enrico> Every page is no-cache-no-cache.  So, if you're editing a page and for some reason firefox shows another page (either "firefox xx.html" is run by something else or you click on a link by mistake, or you hit backspace when the focus is not on the edit area), then you hit "back" or "forward" and your form is fucking completely reset
<enrico> sivang: try WikiWishlist
<mako> enrico: right.. i remember that one
* enrico adds that one to WikiWishlist
<enrico> mako: happened again when trying one of the commands I was inputing: it was "firefox foo/bar/baz.html"
<enrico> It just showed up instead of the page I was editing, not in a new tab
<enrico> (annoying problem of firefox, I guess)
<enrico> gosh, froud seems to be gone
<mako> enrico: i've been having weird mozilla problems lately
<mako> enrico: really annoying ones
<sivang> mako: yeah :)
<mako> hard to pin down and produce.. but it keeps thinking urls, even links, are local paths
<enrico> mako: there's another issue to be solved sooner or later: we're writing DocBook, and we can package things in a .deb file.  However, DocBook makes HTML, and it's cool to put our docs online and link them from the wiki pages and so on.  But where can we put those static HTML pages online?
<enrico> None of us can upload things in any part of ubuntu web space
<sivang> enrico: I think plone allows that
<enrico> sivang: it's not one page.  It's a huge pile of html pages and images
<sivang> enrico: eh true
<sivang> issues of dynamically controlled CMSs...
<sivang> :)
<enrico> so, the issue is still open
<enrico> mako: I anticipate this here because I have no clue on how to work that out.  Having some names to ask to would get me started on the quest
* enrico is about to go to bed
<froud> shikes Sax2 kill me in a bad way
<froud> what happend to enrico?
<froud> plovs, you want lean and mean, how about command line graphics capture
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/test.png
<plovs> froud: checking it out
<plovs> froud: enrico went to bed
<froud> oh no
<plovs> jet lag
<froud> I was fiddling with SaX2 and it blew me out bad
<froud> could not recover in time
<plovs> aj, that's bad
<froud> Do you have image magic insalled
<plovs> i could
<froud> do it
<froud> then run
<froud> import -depth 8 -dither test.png
<froud> This file will not be that small. but read on
<froud> open the png in GIMP and select Image > Flatten
<froud> Then save and recheck the file size
<froud> if you want to capture the frame then do import -frame -depth 8 -dither test.png
<plovs> ok, that's ok
<froud> my capts still look a bit fuzzy caus eof my SaX settings
<froud> Is that simple enough you think
<froud> quick and does the job
<froud> Do you have a laser printer near by
<froud> print it I think it looks ok
<froud> which means we can have single files for dual purposes
<froud> I am adding it all to wiki now
<plovs> yes, looks ok on 600dpi
<plovs> got to bring back dvd's be right back
<froud> is it fuzzy for you, on my HP 600 it look good clear
<froud> ok
<plovs> froud: looks ok on hp 6l as well
<froud> ok good
<abelli> ciao
<froud> chow
* froud adds Taking Screen Captures to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject. Effectively resolving bug #5244
* froud bids the silent crowd adieu for the night
<abelli> ciao
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-18
<enrico> hello everyone!
<sivang> enrico: hi
<sivang> enrico: I've almost synced my bio watch with yours 
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: that doesn't sound healthy for you :)
<sivang> enrico: true :) it's not.
<enrico> gotta go out
<enrico> see you all later!
<plovs> morning all
<froud> African greetings
<froud> two X's plovs ! ? I dont think I could bare it :-)
<sivang> greetings everbody
<froud> boker tov
<froud> boker metsuyan
<sivang> froud: could have been better, I have been fighting with some segfault my code is doing on g-s-t since last night, no sleep at all :)
<froud> did you read my warning
<sivang> warning? (/me shrugs)
<froud>  A word of warning
<froud>     Participation in open source projects can lead to sleep deprivation. And a lot of fun!
<sivang> froud: fun I am having, you won't imagnie how much :)
<froud> sivang, and learning too
<froud> I will be out for most of the day
<sivang> froud: yep
<froud> going toe Gold Reef City and amusement park
<sivang> froud: eh cool, fun fun
<froud> need to increase my testosterone level 
<froud> figure the rides should do it :-)
<sivang> froud: hehe
<froud> 2   plovs again, are my eyes playing tick son me this morning
* sivang has managed to complete part 1 of his coding, can go to sleep now.
<sivang> night all!
<froud> lila tov
<sivang> froud:   
* froud is on the the way to the funny farm, where everything is happy all day. B c'ing ya tonight.
<enrico> froud: around?
<froud> African greetings
* froud returns from the funny farm
<Kinnison> how funny was it?
<froud> A scream
<froud> went of every major ride I could
<froud> and went down a mine
<froud> they only take visitors to 263 meters
<froud> below surface
<froud> amazing place a gold mine
<sivang> Kinnison: part I of my g-s-t work is done!
* sivang dances
* sivang hugs Kinnison of joy.
<sivang> oh, hi everybody :)
<froud> yo gaver ma ata ose
<sivang> froud: huh?
<froud> te se avoda al ha sfarim lo ha g-s-t :-)
<sivang> froud: heheh :)
<froud> just teasing
<sivang> froud: I will, as soon as I finish , which seems rather close :)
<froud> oh good, we miss you
<sivang> froud: you really adjusted to the hebrew slang, didn't you?
* sivang apologisez for his abscent and promises to make up for everybody.
<froud> ma ani mi netanya, ma ata rotze
<sivang> froud: ahahahahahahah
<sivang> froud: ars ma?
<sivang> froud: mamash lamadeta at ha safa hazak...
<froud> hey gibi ani lo ha gaver shel gha
<froud> eser shanim
<froud> ma ata rotze
<sivang> froud: stam, ha olam mazhik az zohakim :)
<froud> ken
<sivang> froud: did you know or saw "hgashash ha hiver" ?
<froud> yes I have
<sivang> froud: you're kidding me! How did it look for you coming from a british educated country? :)
<froud> briliant
<sivang> froud: it's like monty python for the israeli average :)
<froud> mate I am British, South African, Israeli
<sivang> froud: you're one of the interesting mates I have met around tsf/canonical/ub yet :)
<froud> 10 years in IL living in Netanya, not Rananana
<sivang> froud: I wonder if this spoiled a bit of your british education :)
<froud> No enriched it
<sivang> froud: that's cool :)
<froud> It took me 3 years to get over the culture shock
<froud> the remaining seven were easy
<sivang> froud: you poor thing. Yeah, I've heared people describe the same xpereicens.
<sivang> froud: nobody relaxes in .il, stress stress, news alld ay long  :)
<froud> fortunately, unlike most olhim, my upnim was different
<sivang> upnim?
<froud> induction
<froud> I started living in Kiriat Nordau
<sivang> don't understand
<froud> while most olim went to ulpan
<froud> I learnt from people in the neighbourhood
<froud> So I now I have both low an dhigh ivrit
<sivang> hehe
<froud> most of the people I lived with were misrahim, russian, romanian, etc
<sivang> amazing. you encompass in your self some 3 very different cultures :)
<froud> Thats why I am so confused all the time :-)
<froud> I speak 5 language
<sivang> froud: well, if I can help out , just say :)
<froud> English (sfat em), Afrikaan, Zulu, German, Ivrit)
<froud> and Fanagalo
<froud> a local mix of all 11 official south african languages
<froud> mostly made from zulu'
<sivang> wow
<sivang> I want to learn germen and zulu
<sivang> and fanagalo
<sivang> (from you)
<sivang> from others,
* froud is not sure everyone on the channel want to hear about this
<froud> he he :-)
<sivang> froud: true, we should have stick to private
<sivang> from enrico italian,
<sivang> oops I am not in private
<ChrisH> msg sivang Enrico stinks!
<ChrisH> ;)
<froud> maskie, Howzit
<maskie> froud: great and u
<froud> hanging dude
<froud> just spent the day at Gold Reef City
<maskie> working or having fun
<froud> fun
<maskie> thats great 
<froud> you every been down the gold mine there?
<maskie> not there but have been down others ..
<froud> ammmmazzzing
<maskie> been down the deepest in the world ... westerb deep level
<froud> cool 18deg
<froud> thought it was going to be hotter than hell
<maskie> am sure it was hotter in the one I went down but then it was over 5km
<froud> could get my stomach right after the alaconda
<maskie> he he  .. yes we have one of those here in cpt also .... 
<froud> whew, had to sit with head between me legs for 3
<maskie> not a good idea to ride that stuff with a full stomach
<sivang> maskie: where you at ubuntu conf?
<maskie> sivang: no ... wish i could
<sivang> maskie: oh well, enxt time :) You an ubuntu devel?
<maskie> sivang: hopefully it will be held in our part of the world :) .. no not a ubuntu devel 
<froud> Yes on top of Table Mountain :-)
<froud> that would be vcool
<maskie> froud: now you talking ...
<sivang> maskie: I think it's in .au next time
<froud> an then down to Knysna
<froud> chill
<froud> or is it up
<maskie> sivang: at least it is in the correct hemisphere ....
<sivang> maskie: heheheh :)
<maskie> froud: or maybe just have it at fancourt ...
<froud> Oh I say old chat jolly posh what what
<froud> I wine estate would be good then we could get plastered
<maskie> that will also do ...
<maskie> beach ... mountain and wine .... 
<froud> South Africa is the only country I know that has a tourism industry that promotes drunken driving
<froud> The wine estate hop
<froud> wake early and try visit every estate in the region
<maskie> easier to get a bus with a driver ....
<froud> well there would be enough of us for a bus
<froud> I bags the back seat :-)
<froud> stretch
<froud> Hmm people still not validating before commits
<maskie> thats bad ... 
<froud> plovs did you checkin you last edit to global.ent?
<froud> Ok all docs now valid except FAQ. plovs please commit your last edit to global.ent or define an entity for gconf. I see you reference it but it is not defined. You do have an xml instance for it in /common/menus/ So eithe ryou did not commit or you forgot to add it to global.ent
<froud> ChrisH, nice commits today. Thanks
<froud> plovs, you also been a role :-)
<ChrisH> froud: :)
<ChrisH> froud: I'm committing more on sunday hopefully
<froud> Excellent, got your rythm back I c
<abelli> hola
<froud> hi
<ChrisH> froud: Yes... it may just be that I miss a few things that are being discussed here. My schedule is too tight to spend much time on IRC currently.
<ChrisH> froud: Gotta help my brother-in-law moving to their new house tomorrow... :(
<froud> no worries mate, we know you will do what you can when you can
<froud> moooving is a bummer
<froud> cant stand it so I always hire in people
<ChrisH> people like me... ;)
* froud is lazy that way
<froud> I will keep you in mind next time I move
<ChrisH> froud: Yeah, right.
<froud> Hey you get a free holiday in the best country on earth
<froud> good old RSA
<Kinnison> ciao abelli 
<froud> oh hola means bye ?
<Kinnison> I thought hola meant hello
<ChrisH> froud: A bit too hot for me perhaps...
<ChrisH> hola means hello usually... (at least in Catalan)
<froud> so what does ciao mean
<abelli> Kinnison: sorry mate
<froud> ChrisH, you may get a tan :-)
<ChrisH> froud: I may get charcoaled!
<ChrisH> froud: Temperatures above 25C scare me.
<froud> Today was a cool 30
<froud> ChrisH, we have swimming pool in front garden if that helps
<ChrisH> Oh, why didn't you say so. When will you be moving again?
<froud> In about 2 years
<ChrisH> Get back to me. :)
<abelli> froud: excuse my ignorance, where are you from?
<froud> abelli,  co.za
<froud> South Africa
<abelli> yeahh..
<abelli> ive seen a documentary about south africa on telly yesterday,
<abelli> wonderful places.
<froud> abelli, I have travelled th eworld for 15 years and no place like home
<froud> "I am an African"
<abelli> i think everybody feel that way..
<abelli> i mean.. it doesnt feel "african", 
<froud> :-)
<abelli> just likes his places.
<froud> sure, something in the water I think :-)
* froud commits patch to make adminguide open in yelp.
<froud> Good night. Will be out at Sun City all day tomorrow http://www.suninternational.com/resorts/suncity/ See you all in the evening.
<sivang> froud: it's not in scrollkeepr?
<sivang> froud: it's now in scrollkeeper?
<sivang> froud: I mean, did you make ot register agasint it?
<abelli> buona notte
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-19
<froud> morning
<froud> sivang, what you on about. you lost me
<sivang> froud: morning.. finishing the user profile management of g-s-t.
<sivang> froud: that is, the default privilege groups part of the profile managemnt.
<froud> exlent
<froud> now what about scrollkeeper
<froud> why you awake at 06H30
<froud> Intersting quote for the morning
<froud> "When we are no longer children, we are already dead."
<froud> - Constantin Brancusi
* froud sits down to coffee, toast, cheeze and email
* sivang wants some also :)
<froud> me serves up coffee for sivang http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1
<froud> sivang, what's in scrollkeeper the docs
<froud> sivang, I gotta leave for Sun City soon
<sivang> froud: sorry, I have to finish this before, maybe tommorow ? :)
<froud> ok bye
<ChrisH> Uh... kids are so great... 4 hours sleep at the weekend. :(
<skyrider> hi
<skyrider> Can anybody load main page of our wiki (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/) ?
<skyrider> Oops, it works again
<skyrider> sorry
<skyrider> Guys, what is the reason to have two different versions of Hoary release shedule in the wiki?
<skyrider> Is it just mistake?
<skyrider>   http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule AND http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule
<skyrider> anybody alive?
<skyrider> :)
<_d4vid> yomon da
* froud return from a hot Sun City (36deg)
<_d4vid> http://sales.limewire.com/040508/fo0u82D7914GAK0mL0OMWiIsSJpXVmBN/index.shtml
<abelli> ciao
<Kinnison> ciao abelli 
<abelli> did you guys guys check this part of the guide http://ubuntuguide.org/#repositories ?
<abelli> Kinnison: Yo
* froud closes bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5079 "Write Ubuntu Documentation License" See https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject "Our Documentation License"
* froud closes bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5145 "Who is the copyright holder for docteam documentation?" See "Write Ubuntu Documentation License" See https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject "Our Documentation License"
<froud> enrico, helo
<enrico> hello!
<enrico> froud: so cool the license issue has been sorted out!!
<froud> yes and licenses are in SVN
<froud> and docs use them
<froud> and LICENSE file is update
<enrico> I have a question about the User's Guide: mdz asks me "In what ways will it be different from the existing User's Guide?"
<enrico> and now I ask myself: what existing user's guide?
<froud> you mean admin vs users
<froud> oh
<froud> yes I heard the same about quick guide
<froud> dunno mate
<froud> b 4 my time
<froud> I expected you had a reason have the user guide
<froud> now I learn there is another copy as with the install guide
* froud is full gas in neutral
<enrico> well, wait
<enrico> there is no other copy of the quick guide, what exists, is in svn
<enrico> so, that can go full-gear
<froud> OK
<froud> now what about User Guide?
<enrico> I'm trying to understand it.  I have no idea what mdz means with that, so I was investigating
<enrico> The User's Guide was mainly managed by John, so I don't know much about it
<froud> can mdz giv eyou a URI
<enrico> I'll ask for one.
<froud> p.s. updates screen capt part hope it is as you wanted
<enrico> froud: I haven't had a look yet
<enrico> it's been a saturday out, here
<froud> yes Saturday here too
<froud> just got back from Sun City
<froud> www.suninternational.com/resorts/suncity/
* froud creates bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5345 "Create Owner/Maintainer list" further to http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-January/000908.html Assigns froud 
<abelli> enrico...
<abelli> achtung
<froud> Well thats all for me folk for today. See you later.
<enrico> froud: I suspect that mdz is mentioning an Ubuntu port of the Debian User's Guide and we have little to worry, though
* froud is off to bobo land where he can get some shut-eye
<froud> enrico, good
<froud> enrico, the document "AboutTheUbuntuCoreDocumentationProject"
<froud> its comming along nicely. It is getting long. I will take some time tomorrow
<froud> to work a structure for the Documentation Web Site
* froud knows he promised yesterday
<enrico> :)
<froud> but I though the license stuff of higher priority
<enrico> Don't worry.  Wiki philosophy would be to split it into atomic pieces of information and then put each one of them in one page
<enrico> Sure: the license was indeed higher priority and I'm so happy it's been already settlen
<abelli> froud: are you working on a documentation website?
<froud> abelli, no its a document to document the documentation project. It will eventually become part of a structure under wiki for the documentation side of the project
<froud> I still need to device the structure, ideas welcome :;;-)
<enrico> froud: ideas?  I have lots :)
<abelli> ahh because ubuntu italia, ha a "documentation&&translation project"
<enrico> froud: another idea would be to split that into a series of tutorials (like the screenshots one), that can directly be followed by people
<abelli> and theyre working on the dbase infrastructure
<abelli> now
<froud> Send [proposal]  to the list and lets discuss it
<froud> that it will be self documenting
<froud> I already lik ethe idea about Documentation and Internationalization Project
<froud> i18n and l10n
<froud> I think you know lots about translations
<froud> right
<froud> abelli, perhaps you can document the po file process of translation
<froud> I use KBabel under KDE
<froud> what do you use under GNOME?
<froud> etc
<abelli> whos talking to who?
* froud talks to abelli and enrico 
<froud> abelli, you know lots about translations (i18n and l10n)
* abelli is not very good in data mining/auditing sorry...
<abelli> froud: sincerely not, but i do my best
<froud> do you know how to use po files
<abelli> yeah
<froud> so you understand the process
<froud> can you document it
<abelli> ahh..
<froud> po for dummies
<froud> like me
<abelli> but you can use rosetta..
<froud> I use Kbabel
<abelli> and explain gettext..
<abelli> well someone really better than has already done it yet
<froud> can Rosetta take an XML file and do po files etc
<froud> does Rosetta use translation memories
<abelli> well lets ask to daf
<froud> Where can I find info on Rosetta
<froud> daf?
<enrico> froud: Dafydd Harries <daf@muse.19inch.net>
* enrico goes to bed
<froud> 19" :-)
<froud> daf wishes
<froud> ok Im off
<sivang> enrico: you've just spammed the hell of of his email :)
<abelli> sivang: ahh..
<enrico> Did I?
<abelli> enrico: yes.
<sivang> do you remember irclog.workaround.org ?
<enrico> Do we have spam-collection bots in the channel?  Is the log archived publicly in a bot-accessible way?
<enrico> And anyway, daf writes to Debian lists, so...  :)
<abelli> enrico dont cheat.. it's normal..
<sivang> enrico: eheheh
<sivang> enrico: so that's no biggy
<abelli> :)
<sivang> debian lists are way spammend :)
* enrico ronfs
<enrico> gotta go.  Byw!
<sivang> enrico: bye!
<abelli> enrico: buona notte
<abelli> ..a little late
<abelli> froud: are you still with us
<abelli> froud: good night :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-20
<froud> African greetings
<maskie> froud: morning
<froud> maskie, Howzit
<maskie> great ... how was you Sun City trip
<froud> Hot 34deg but spectacular as usual
<froud> Valley of the waves is the closest thing to abeach we have up here :-)
<maskie> thought it might be hot ... but you had a man made sea to cool off in :)
<froud> Yes, no blue bottles, jelly-fish, no sharks, just lots of rocks :-)
<froud> Just kidding
<maskie> and nice girls I presume ....
<froud> wowawiwa, yebo
<froud> aitch serious!
<froud> maskie, good weather it Cape Town today? Looks like another scortcher here.
<maskie> yes ... but the wind is blowing like hell since early this morning so not a day for the beach
<froud> We had one hell of a storm last night, looks like its all blown out
<maskie> typical highveld storm ??
<froud> Skit and donner
<froud> Now we have "African Sky Blue"
<maskie> until later this afternoon when the next one come 
<froud> Yes, but it is good, cools the day off
<maskie> agree .... so what you up today ....
<froud> Think we are going to Rosebank Flea market again
<froud> Then I will finish hacking the legalnotice.xml
<froud> make proposal for new Documentation and Internationalization web site
<froud> Write XSL for Docs Owner/Maintainer list
<froud> Hmmm what else is in Bugzilla
<maskie> sounds that you will be busy ...
<froud> he he yes
<froud> btw, I may have some xsls for the side project ;-)
<froud> But I got to thinking
<froud> why not just have a place where one can pickup anytype of xsl, like CPAN
<froud> they dont have to be docbook specific
<maskie> why do i have this idea that it has been tried before ....
<sivang> froud: what side project? :)
<sivang> greerting s:)
<froud> maskie, really where?
<froud> sivang, shalom. Mashlom gha
<sivang> froud: hootz mize sha ani lelo sheyna hakol beseder :)
<maskie> IIRC .. a while back somebody tried it for standards for the interchange of data using XML ... i must go do some searching 
<froud> sivang, eifo ha cusit shel gha :-)
<froud> maskie, OK, let us have th elink
<froud> when you find it
<maskie> ok
<froud> tov, people are calling me to go
<froud> seems live SVN is down
<froud> hornbeck, when you return. hope you will bring svn back with you :-)
<maskie> know london had storm last night ... maybe some power failure 
<froud> hehe, thats a dark, cold, dirty place
<maskie> saw something on tv and the streetslooked like rivers
<froud> ok must luv ya and see ya l8tr. row, row, row your boat gently down the stream
<sivang> froud: ma?
<sivang> froud: al eize cusit ata medaber?
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<froud> sivang, lo mishane  eize. im chashe le gha lishon, kacg cusit:-0
<abelli> what?
<froud> abelli, hello, dont worry its a message to sivang  in hebrew fo rwhen he gets back
<abelli> ahh.. ok
<froud> plovs, ping
<plovs> froud: hi
<froud> plovs, u still tuned?
* froud notes SVN is back but does not see hornbeck. Hope he is alright.
<plovs> yes
<plovs> sorry :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-21
<froud> African greetings
<sivang> froud: greetings
<froud> morning sivang 
<sivang> froud: morning
<sivang> froud: I like it when you sau african greetings, sounds so, so... warm and assuring.
<sivang> :)
<froud> warm place, warm people :-)
<sivang> froud: true, although you've said the brits make it a bit cold :)
<froud> he he cold place
<froud> di dyou read th elist mail today
<sivang> froud: nah...I'm finishing this huge page to g-s-t and then going to catch up on it....I'm gonna have some tons of mail to go over..
<froud> ok
<plovs> good morning all
<ChrisH> Hi, Alex...
<ChrisH> Happy Monday all around :)
<froud> plovs, ping
<sivang> ChrisH: yo ChrisH 
<ChrisH> sivang: re yo
<plovs> hi guys, how are the docs today?
<plovs> sivang: what are you doing with g-s-t? 
<froud> plovs, what's with gconf. you have an entity ref, but no entity or xml instance
<froud> did you do your last commit on these
<plovs> froud: let me check
<sivang> plovs: uploading a screenshot for you :)
<plovs> sivang: cool
<plovs> hmm cannot connect to server?
<froud> plovs, you mean svn
<plovs> froud: yes
<froud> it has come up and down since last night
<plovs> is it a problem on my end?
<froud> I understand hornbeck is having some trouble
<froud> loads of rain in London
<plovs> froud: he is in the states, but still
<froud> ok, sorry, then perhaps I am confused
<plovs> we had lots of water as well, parts of the city next to the river flooded
<plovs> but my internet is up, nonetheless!
<froud> which city
<plovs> riga, latvia
<froud> he he last time I was in Prague I just left in time
<froud> the whole city flooded and cut of roads to where I was living
<plovs> :-) my wife couldn't fly on saturday, was stuck one more night in danmark
<froud> just managed to get out and to the airport in time
<froud> Hmm not a bad place to be stuck
<plovs> well, considering i was *not* in danmark i dissagree :-)
<plovs> froud: you should have stayed in sa, you have the best wheather on the planet i am told
<froud> yes, but when I left 15 years ago sa had many political problems
<froud> now its much better
<plovs> froud: agreed, things have improved
<froud> plovs, so you like the rfc for the doc team web site?
<plovs> froud: well, i can't do anything at the moment with svn, but the changes cannot be big anyway
<froud> no they are not
<plovs> froud: yes, it needs some shaping up, and this looks good
<froud> what did you mean create it under SeanWheller?
<plovs> whell, you have a homepage on the wiki i suppose, just create it as a subpage there, then when you are satisfied move it up
<froud> Hmm I dont have a home page, should I?
* froud asks that you excuse his ignorance about wiji
<plovs> froud: not necessarily, it's a matter of choice, it just help to keep things organized, you can put it under my page if you want
* plovs loves wikis
<sivang> froud: http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/Screenshot2.png
<froud> Ok send a uri
<sivang> oops
<sivang> plovs: http://muse.19inch.net/~sivan/Screenshot2.png
<plovs> sivang: looks cool, is this an update or a rewrite of the current user-config stuff?
<froud> plovs, send me a url to your wiki home page
<sid77> hi
<froud> ello
<plovs> froud: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexanderPoslavsky
<sivang> plovs: update, the profiles didn't have any ability to allow you to add default privilege groups to the users templates, I am now trying to finish the backend stuff and we're all done.
<sivang> plovs: and now also when you create a user, it inherits those default priv groups from the selected profile.
<plovs> sivang: sounds really cool, profiles make stuff more powerfull
<sivang> plovs: yes, this even makes sense more, as the g-s-t backends now also support batch execution, which means you can create different specs of systems, and just knock yourself out and create N copies of a system profile stored in the xml backend, roughly speaking that enables you to take N machines, and and progrematically set them up as you like in a coheren way.
<sivang> but my patch is rather small I think :)
<sivang> does anybody remember how I add a custom entry to the "Applications
<sivang> menu?
<froud> sivang, appname.dsktop ?
<froud> appname.desktop
<sivang> froud: there is a gui way to do it can't recall how to invoke the menu editor..
<froud> from the kicker, right-click ?
<sivang> kicker?!?!?
<sivang> are you using KDE?!
<ChrisH> sivang: panel
<sivang> :p
<froud> sure
<sivang> we're a GNOME distro here :)
<sivang> !
* ChrisH is on KDE, too :)
<sivang> ChrisH: right click?
<froud> kde rocks
<ChrisH> sivang: Put away your MAC mouse and get a real one. ;)
<sivang> ChrisH: eheheh, I have a real one...
<ChrisH> froud: Don't tell that in the Ubuntu public or you'll get stoned. ;)
<ChrisH> sivang: Perhaps we should ship an Ubuntu-brand mouse with the mouse buttons labeled "left" and "right" :)
<froud> sivang, beshvil gha, "yamin" ve "smal"
<froud> ChrisH, KDE ROCKS DUDE, now stone away :-)
* froud starts a falme war
<ChrisH> Jehova!
<sivang> hehe
<froud> ChrisH, of course you need the hardware to run it :-0
<ChrisH> froud: I admit that my Pentium IV 2.4 GHz is a little slow. :)
<ChrisH> froud: In fact... since I switched my machine back to KDE and use Ubuntu just for helping my parents-in-law and documentation writing/screenshot taking I'm way more productive.
<froud> ChrisH, ata biy, kde forever Ra Ra Ra
<ChrisH> froud: Intelligent window placement (not open the first windows somewhere in the middle), khotkeys, konqeror, k3b, ...
<froud> ChrisH, k3b now there's some magic
<froud> Kdiff3
<ChrisH> froud: graphical diff?
<froud> yep 3way
<sivang> ChrisH: from you it sounds like KDE is so much better ...:)
<ChrisH> froud: I'm still the "vim -d" kind...
<froud> "power through your conflicts"
<ChrisH> sivang: Nah... :)
* sivang uses k3b under GNOME
<ChrisH> sivang: I have used fvwm2, fluxbox, gnome, kde, ... I just feel that - although it's very bloated - KDE is easier to configure.
<ChrisH> sivang: Gnome annoys me with it's "gconfd" which is no better than regedit.exe in Windows.
<froud> and faster :-)
<ChrisH> froud: No idea if it's a configuration problem, but yeah... KDE runs faster here.
<ChrisH> I was even convinced of the "spatial view" in Gnome for a few weeks until I trashed it. :)
<froud> and good old klipper is a time save when writing docs
<ChrisH> knotes is better :)
<froud> kget is another one for those hard to get downloads
<ChrisH> And I can control XMMS from every window through khotkeys :)
<ChrisH> froud: Let's leave Ubuntu.
<froud> Yes, lets :-)
* ChrisH is curious how Enrico's daily report will look like
<froud> :-)
<froud> mutany on the ubuntu docs highway
<sivang> froud: you hope nobody on tsf reads this logs...
<froud> sivang, dont realy care its free
<sivang> froud: kidding :)
<froud> good news is that oneday the desktops will converge
<froud> ChrisH, have you tried running any KDE stuff on Ubuntu
<froud> I want to try it on my test box here, but afraid it wont work as I expect
<ChrisH> froud: nope...
<froud> Hmmm, I must try in oneday when I have some spare time to give in case it breaks the system
<ChrisH> froud: But the postings on the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-users mailing lists regarding KDE sounded very hostile
<froud> yes, was looking at those the first few days I had Ubuntu installed on that box
<froud> decided I was not in the mood for problems
<froud> well, not that many
<plovs> ;;well, the level of conversation has gone down i see, man, leave for five minutes and kde already rulez
<ChrisH> plovs: So you are still on Gnome? ;)
<plovs> gnome or screen
<plovs> my productivity with kde dropped, i was mucking around with kde all the time instead of working
<ChrisH> I still believe that Gnome is more "zen" for end-users. I'm trying to help build a distribution for end-users who don't want to worry. But I'd rather stay on Debian/Sid (which I must keep anyway to build packages).
* ChrisH loves mucking
<plovs> i love the fact that it is possible, kde, gnome whatever you want i think that is great
<ChrisH> And it's obvious that Mark doesn't want to handle two desktop environments already.
<plovs> some of my friends are eagerly waiting for kubuntu though
<ChrisH> KDE is probably less usable for newbies. In Gnome you just can't screw that much. That's why my mother-in-law has Sarge/KDE and father-in-law has Ubuntu/Gnome. He tends to click around more. :)
<plovs> they both have plusses and minuses
<ChrisH> plovs: You know my parents-in-law? ;)
<plovs> ChrisH: i think parents-in-law do not come in many different flavours
<plovs> (unlike window-managers)
<plovs> my wife prefers gnome though
<ChrisH> plovs: My father-in-law has a history of needing less than an hour to screw Windows XP so badly that not even Bill Gates could fix it.
<plovs> but on hoary many things are a bit broken again :-(
<froud> plovs, he sounds like a good tester
<plovs> ChrisH: well, fixing xp is really hard, i prefer reinstalling from a ghost image
<plovs> it would be nice to see how easy it is to lock down kde, locking down gnome is not so simple
<ChrisH> plovs: it is? I never tried that in KDE.
<plovs> there is some tool for it, don't remember what it's called
<plovs> one day i would like to set up nis+nfs+kde/gnome for workstations at work
<plovs> and then locked down in case your father-in-law drops by
<plovs> froud: i updated my svn-repo, i am in sync, so everything that is not there does not exist
<froud> plovs, ok so you have ref to &gconf;
<froud> you need to add an entity to global.ent
<froud> and create the XML-instance
<plovs> froud: ah, ok, now i remember, i didn't know what it was called when i wrote that, sorry, i'll do it straight away
<sivang> ChrisH: my dad does the same :)
<plovs> froud: where is my reference to &gconf;? i seem to have lost it
<froud> plovs, faqguide/faq/TipsTricks.xml 123:19 and 148:19
<plovs> froud: fixed
<froud> plovs, thanks dude
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-22
<plovs> morning all
<plovs> froud: you're early!
<froud> plovs, hi, sorry, yes. School is back so I must take kids.
<froud> African greetings
* froud steps out for awhile. I'll be back.
<froud> Yo dudes, does anyone other than plovs and I read and respond to messages on the list?
<froud> I've been making proposals and requesting comment on a number of issues but people just dont seem to respond. Now some will say silence is consent, but geeze on virtually every item proposed or requested, people dont answer. I wonder if I am part of a comunity project or not :-)
<plovs> morning, dropping in during work for a sec
<froud> morning plovs
<plovs> froud: what do you think for the admin guide, the idea with the boot-disk was small work-scenarios, goal,tools,howto,notes,extra info
<plovs> thos  steps as a basic outline, what do you think?
<froud> I answered on list. Yes I think it can work as a basic framework
<froud> It is short and to the point
<froud> something admins like
<froud> We will however need to test it on other topics
<froud> but in general, YES, VERY GOOD
<froud> plovs, do you know which sections you want to do in the books
<plovs> whatever, as long as I know what I have to do I can write about it
<plovs> let me see ...
<froud> Ok well I think it best to decide and mark it as per my proposal
<froud> hopefully others will do the same
<froud> It would help for the Owners List
<plovs> i can start with servers
<froud> That's a big section
<froud> do you want to be more specific
<froud> I suggest taking small parts you want to do
<plovs> i'll write basic installation for all the servers, eg apt-get install ...
<plovs> then we have a start, for more specific stuff, eg apache + php + etc, we need subtopics, i won't do those
<froud> so you are talking only about admin guide now
<plovs> yes
<plovs> userguide, quick-guide, i don't know what to with them still
<froud> OK, this is a general problem I need to work a solution
<froud> I will propose shortly
<froud> for now please add your authorblurb to the sectX's you will be prepared to do
<froud> that will be a start
<froud> I will do the same
<froud> in some cases we may choose the same items
<froud> in these situations we can choose to collaborate
<froud> to help one another I suggest we post information about completed its to the list and request people to check them
<froud> for this reason I suggest work small and commit often
<froud> For example you may take the section "Heterogeneous Networks"
<froud> when you have finished it, commit and let it be known on the list
<froud> BTW if you feel the need to add subsections just do it
<plovs> speaking about authorblurb, where is that located now?
<froud> He is an example:
<froud> <chapter id="chp-admin-serv-hetnet">
<froud>             <title>Heterogeneous Networks</title>
<froud>             <authorblurb><para>Your Name</para></authorblurb>
<froud>             <para>text</para>
<froud>         </chapter>
<froud> plovs, there is no authorblurb at present, I am using it as a temp solution for now, just to record who is doing what
<froud> However, it is possible for authors to add authorblurbs to the authorgroup
<froud> however, authorblurb is depressed by default on most systems and will not show
<plovs> maybe it is a good idea to make an external autoblurb? and then include it &autoblurb; ?
<froud> it does show in Yelp
<froud> you mean like one for each author
<froud> &blurb-plov; &blurb-froud;
<froud> Is this waht you mean
<plovs> maybe one for each document, quick, admin, etc
<froud> I dont understand
<plovs> make it just like &copyright; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; 
<froud> Oh I c
<froud> so then it is better to do that with author
<plovs> yeah
<froud> like this
<froud> <author>
<froud>                 <firstname>Sean</firstname>
<froud>                 <surname>Wheller</surname>
<froud>                 <authorblurb>
<froud>                     <para>A good tool</para>
<froud>                 </authorblurb>
<froud>                 <!-- <email>sean@inwords.co.za</email> -->
<froud>             </author>
<froud> The <authorgroup>&abc; &efg, &hij; </authorgroup>
<plovs> yes, and the parts you are working on
<froud> This will enable a more modular approach to author management
<plovs> i love modular, i dislike code-duplication
<froud> Hmm, I see you want to collect information from the doc body and add the list in the authorblurb
<froud> that's a good idea, let me see how I can make it dynamic
<plovs> btw what did you mean with Heterogeneous networks? installing or administring?
<plovs> adminning? what is the real word?
<froud> A general intoduction to how Ubuntu works in a Hetrogeneuous network
<froud> What can it talk?
<froud> what does it have
<froud> Samba, AppleTalk
<froud> IPX/SPX
<froud> etc
<plovs> this would be an intro to further explanation later then, how to use ubuntu with: samba active directory etc, do i understand that correctly?
<froud> yes it needs an overview to collect it together
<froud> for admins we dont need to explain what hetrogeneous networks are
<froud> just how Ubuntu fits in
<froud> I assume net admins know what hetrogen networks are
<froud> I am working on a document spec that will define everything about the admin guide
<froud> plovs, do svn up look in admin guide and tell me if this is what you meant
<froud> grrr. yelp is a bunch of %$#@
<froud> I vote we axe yelp
<plovs> froud: voted down, sorry
<plovs> :-)
<plovs> do you use the latest yelp?
<froud> plovs, problem
<froud> if you work on multiple books
<froud> your authorblurb will have references to each of them
<plovs> i actually like chm, but that runs on the wrong platform ;-)
<plovs> froud: in svn what do i do with a conflict? i tried to commit, but you committed already
<froud> do you have kdiff3
<froud> or some other three diff tool
<plovs> yes (dif)
<froud> just use it to resolve the conflict
<froud> 3-way
<plovs> so do a dif and patch?
<froud> no
<froud> you need to examine my changes and yours
<froud> resolve the conflict and then commit
<plovs> what i did before is mv <myfile>, svn up, dif <yourfile> <myfile> > guide.dif, patch <yourfile> < guide.dif
<plovs> but that's a lot of steps, for something really basic
<froud> ok that's lots of steps
<froud> you under gui now
<froud> install a 3-way diff
<froud> and eSvn
<froud> anyway if your method resolves it then no problem
<froud> yelp is so limiting
<plovs> installing
<plovs> not so many people have tried to push the limits of yelp, if we write a good manual and then complain, we will be able to get the yelp people to add features
<froud> I speak to Shaum about it on regular basis
<froud> but they face problems
<froud> they need buy-in from distros and author groups
<froud> only then can they satndardize certain functions
<froud> until then its broke
<froud> the problem is that docbook is not gnome specific
<froud> but yelp is
<froud> in implimenting docbook under yelp the gnome project induced yelp and gnome specific features
<plovs> they need to figure out what they want, a docbook viewer is not rocket-science
<froud> not good
<plovs> btw your adminguide doesn't work in yelp
<froud> It works in mine :-0
<froud> what errors do you get
<froud> do an svn up and try it again
<froud> " docbook viewer is not rocket-science" actually it is
<froud> tell me the errors you yet
* froud notes that Oracle could layoff 6000 people. WOW http://www.forbes.com/home/markets/2005/01/10/0110automarketscan11.html
<plovs> must have been a sun-flare, now it works
<froud> Ok now look under title page
<froud> look under my name
<froud> how doeees the formatting look
<froud> do you see "How to use this book" in BIG LETTERS
<froud> even simple xref's present a problem for yelp
<froud> grrrr
<plovs> hmmm, not to upset you even more but I see neither a title-page nor your name anywhare
<plovs> brb
<froud> on what version r you
* froud notes "IBM Offers 500 Patents for Open-Source Use"
<froud> Yelp is just to erratic
* froud thinks good old chunked HTML/XHTML is better
<froud> more flexible and less lockin
<froud> plovs, ?
<froud> look under contents, and click "About this book"
<plovs> ok, back
<froud> read above
<plovs> yelp 2.9.2, the one with bookmarks
<froud> great toy, but does not help
<plovs> Unmatched element: simpara and index
<froud> yes yelp does not support many elements
<froud> indexes, glossary and biliographies dont work
<froud> look under contents and click "About this book"
<plovs> so all the seious stuff is not (yet) there
<froud> which mean it is not yet mature enough for serious production environments
<plovs> The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///home/plovs/SVN/faq/trunk/adminguide/x-yelp-titlepage is invalid or does not point to an actual file.
<froud> but you do have this in the document
<froud> and I see it on earlier versions
<froud> how can one be expected to work with a tool that depeciates stuff like this
<froud> IMHO it would be better to focus on plain old HTML/XHTML that way it stays stable
<froud> and remain compatible with all desktops Ubuntu may ship inthe furture
<plovs> not using yelp seems rather sad, then we might just as well remove the whole app if the documentation does not use it
<froud> while I appreciate that Ubuntu is at present using a GNOME desktop, I dont think it wise for the doc team to assume this will be the norm forever. I am certain we will have a number of desktops.
<froud> maintaining nuances between them in the documents will become a big overhead unless we remain neutral in our base src
<froud> I ask myself the following questions in this dilema
<froud> 1. What is the purpose of the docs?
<plovs> i suppose yelp will catch up, we just need to make good docs that need those features
<froud> 2. Does the audience really care how it is presented with what tool?
<froud> I think people just want docs that are accessible with their desktop of choice
<froud> they dont care about yelp or KHelpCenter
<froud> for all they care you can use the default system web browser
<froud> doe any of this make sense to you?
<froud> or am I just in my own world as usual?
<plovs> yes, i just like the idea of a good help system
<plovs> and i like the idea of yelp
<plovs> better then using a browser
<froud> yelp does not make or break the help system
<froud> the content and its organization is what makes a good help system
<froud> underneath yelp is firefox
<plovs> i still think you should either use the help system or dump it having two (or more) help-systems is bad imho
<plovs> either use a browser for verything or for nothing
<froud> well we cant mandate that for vendors
<plovs> a small local web-server that serves man-pages would already do
<froud> yes
<froud> put it on a port
<froud> use dig for search etc
<froud> you can still have a tree nav toc on the right
<froud> or left
<froud> my thinking is that the help system should be a web application under which you can easily plug in docs
<froud> you can deploy it on the localhost or on a central server in the organization
<plovs> that might not be a popular idea as it dumps the whole gnome-framework
<froud> what do you mean
<plovs> i personally just want something that works (tm)
<froud> yes,    but we have to maintain it
<plovs> it would mean dumping yelp and the underlying system
<froud> for it to "Just Work"
<froud> is that a big loss
<plovs> it's good we work in docbook, at least we are ok, no matter what
<plovs> ok, my wife pulls me away from the computer, brb
<froud> will people still have access to the docs
<froud> Ah ha know the problem
<froud> c ya
<plovs> ok, back from lunch
<plovs> froud: this shaun does he do irc?
<plovs> we might ask him about the plans for yelp and what is and what isn't supported
<froud> He is on the GNOME docs channel
<froud> but he does not have solutions to all our problems
<froud> what I prose is to use HTML/XHTML for now since this does not exclude ffffffuture use of yelp, when it is able to handle the capabilities we want and need.
<froud> See my latest written works in the mailing list :-)
<plovs> ok, readin list ...
* froud has to collect a freind from the airport. c u l8tr.
<plovs> cu
<plovs> ok, back
<plovs> hi guys
<skyrider> hi guys
<skyrider> I've already asked this question few days ago but nobody replied since then so I'll repeat my question.
<skyrider> What is the reason to have two pages in wiki about Hoary release shedule?
<skyrider> I'm talking about http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule
<skyrider> HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule looks like obsolete version of HoaryReleaseSchedule page
<skyrider> why it still don't deleted?
<plovs> skyrider: let me take a look
<skyrider> plovs: ok
<plovs> skyrider: ok, i asked the owner of the pages
<skyrider> plovs: ok. thanks!
<plovs> skyrider: np
* enrico says hi to people
<enrico> I'm in Taipei at the moment, will be back in a couple of days
<enrico> I hoped to have network more often here
<enrico> just gave a talk about custom debians
<sivang> enrico: hi!!!
<hornbeck> enrico: you around?
<enrico> hornbeck: yes
<hornbeck> hey, there you are
<hornbeck> I just sent you a email
<enrico> hornbeck: checking mail now
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> hornbeck: writing to elmo over IRC now
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> hornbeck: we agreed that in a couple of days we'll plan a move with a scheduled downtime advertised with one or two days advance
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> that sounds good to me
<enrico> hornbeck: I'm in Taipei at the moment, I'll get back to my gf house in a couple of days, that's why the 2 days
<hornbeck> thats fine
<hornbeck> I just don't want anything I do to affect you guys
<enrico> Hope we'll manage quickly
<enrico> Well, you have your life after all
<hornbeck> I am sure we will
<hornbeck> :-)
<enrico> time is over now.  Disconnecting....
<hornbeck> me to
<sivang> hey froud 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-23
<froud> African greetings
<froud> trickie, 
<froud> ?
<froud> you in Melbourne?
<trickie> yes i am
<trickie> u?
<froud> the same nick loeve from the ASTC?
<trickie> ASTC?
<froud> South Africa
<froud> You a tech writer?
<trickie> but yes i reckon i am the only nick loeve in melbourne :)
<trickie> yeah... sometimes.... ha ha ha
<trickie> whats ASTC
<trickie> ?
<froud> Australian Society for Technical Comunications (VIC Chapter)
<froud> I met a NIck Loeve while I was in AU about a year ago
<trickie> Wow... never heard of it... but i think i am the only nick loeve in australia... never met another with my last name
<froud> Also on Bigpond net (Cable Broadband)
<trickie> i am on bigpond here at work
<froud> perhaps he was nick love
<trickie> but i have another provider at home
<froud> nah then its not the same person
<trickie> ok
<froud> welcome anyway
<trickie> thanks
<trickie> :)
<froud> well must go drop a freind at the airport, b c'ing ya
<trickie> cool
<abelli> ciao
<Kinnison> ciao abelli, come va?
<abelli> bene grazie 
<sid77> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-16
* Burgwork is denied working on the wiki
<Burgwork> Madpilot, can you send me that .sla file for the vlug poster?
<LaserJock> the wiki is alive!
<Burgwork> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> morning
* jsgotangco yawns
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, have you tried the daily build lately?
<hyperactivecrond> I can't make the meeting on friday...
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, tried last nights. Either my burn failed or the daily failed
<jsgotangco> no worries
<hyperactivecrond> thx jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> Burgwork, ahh ok so i won't install this then
* jsgotangco rsync'ed yesterday's build
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, I suspect it was my burn, because it failed trying to unpack debs
<jsgotangco> ok i'll try it then
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> interestingly my gentoo install just finshed a few minutes ago
<Burgwork> I have only tried RH 8, Ubuntu and the live cds of Suse 9.3 and Linspire
<Burgwork> thats it
<LaserJock> that's all the distros you've tried ever?
<jsgotangco> try SuSE 10 you'll like it
* jsgotangco have been using Vine since it started
<Burgwork> LaserJock, yes
<Burgwork> oh, I guess FC4 here at work
<hyperactivecrond> bintoo looks promising if it wasn't 9 GB for a normal install...
<Burgwork> hyperactivecrond, 9 GB???
<jsgotangco> 9GB?
<LaserJock> I think Gentoo and Ubuntu are the only distros I have kept for over a month
<Burgwork> http://fossplanet.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=530&slide=5&title=bintoo+gnu/linux+0.1a+screenshots
<LaserJock> actually the reason I found Ubuntu was I was looking for a binary Gentoo
<hyperactivecrond> Burgwork and jsgotangco yes. 9GB
<jsgotangco> damn
<jsgotangco> bigger than vista
<jsgotangco> heh
<hyperactivecrond> NOTE: This release requires a 9 GB free drive to install, you should be sure to have that space avaliable or the installation won't success. 
<hyperactivecrond> heh
<hyperactivecrond> the poll: what do u like?:
<hyperactivecrond> a lot of apps & Big System - 9 GB
<hyperactivecrond> some apps & small system - 5 GB
<hyperactivecrond> no apps i'll install it by hand - micro system 1GB
<hyperactivecrond> omg... /me slaps mIRC
<jsgotangco> :P
<hyperactivecrond> btw we can't say 'free as in beer' anymore because they've created open-source beer... 
<hyperactivecrond> http://www.webaugur.com/bibliotheca/field_stock/os-airlines.html
<hyperactivecrond> ^^ if os'es were airlines...
<LaserJock> I remember being shocked at how little space Ubuntu took compared to Gentoo
<jsgotangco> NOTE: This release requires a 9 GB free drive to install, you should be sure to have that space avaliable or the installation won't success. 
<jsgotangco> nice english
* bshumate knows of some open source beer
<bshumate> http://www.tradeshowhell.com/?q=penguinpiss ;-)
<jsgotangco> Windows Air
<jsgotangco> The terminal is pretty and colorful, with friendly stewards, easy baggage check and boarding, and a smooth take-off.  After about 10 minutes in the air, the plane explodes with no warning whatsoever.
<bshumate> the installation won't success indeed! ;-)
<hyperactivecrond> heh... did you know m$ writes the code for airplane navigation? lol that's why they crash
<Burgwork> http://www.overheardinnewyork.com/archives/003854.html
<Burgwork> ^ randomly funny stuff
<bshumate> Burgwork: oiny is definitely good for a chuckle!
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgwork> salut Madpilot 
<Burgwork> Madpilot, you coming to the vlug meeting tonight?
* jsgotangco testing out bshumate's wiki page on openssl
<Burgwork> Madpilot, anyway, I have to catch a bus to get there. Maybe see you there
<Madpilot> Burgwork: no, can't make the meeting - have a good time
* mgalvin makes noise for xchat-gnome screenshot
<robitaille> Madpilot:  congrats on the membership.  I was just reading the CC logs just now.  Too bad I missed it
<Madpilot> robitaille: thanks
<mdke> Madpilot, ditto, sorry I didn't notice you were up
<Madpilot> mdke: no problem, it was actually an easier ride than I expected
<Burgundavia> just had an interesting talk at VLUG: Linux in business, real use cases
<Burgundavia> most people simply cannot see the big picture
<Madpilot> the CC didn't have any business aside from new members, so I guess they were in a good mood :P
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: that looked like an interesting topic for tonight - too bad my bike is out of action...
<Burgundavia> there was a gentoo user who simply counldn't comprehend why first start wizard things are good things
<Burgundavia> and why solving the 95% use case is a good thing
<Madpilot> so you had lots of arguments and had fun? ;)
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> wow i just listened to the new year ed of lug radio
<jsgotangco> edubuntu was categorized as pointless
<Burgundavia> why so?
<mdke> i've only listened to one edition, but it struck me as pretty rubbish, to be honest
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> the first season was better
<Madpilot> LugRadio is fun, but not to be taken too seriously, I think...
<mdke> i didn't really find it amusing
<jsgotangco> i dont find it informative at all
<jsgotangco> its mostly ranting
<mdke> even with the english sense of humour ;)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is funnier if you understand english humour
<jsgotangco> well i do understand a fair bit of english humour
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm not so sure about that
<Burgundavia> but they do like to rant 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, any reason why it was called pointless?
<jsgotangco> oh they just made their own nominations for pointless projects for 2005
<jsgotangco> grab the episode :)
<mdke> man i hate this new firefox
<Madpilot> ... the only nomination in their "Funniest moment of 2005" category was... their own program... 
<jsgotangco> 1.5?
<mdke> it is causing horrible bugs in yelp _and_ epiphany
<Madpilot> http://www.lugradio.org/competitions/awards2005/
<Madpilot> anyone know what's up with http://help.ubuntu.com?
<jsgotangco> heh biggest letdown candidate
<mdke> Madpilot, it is slow
<mdke> Madpilot, or alternatively, down
<mdke> fuck
<Madpilot> mdke: yeah, I can't get a ping from it either...
<Madpilot> 51 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 50028ms
<jsgotangco> its like that too yesterdady
<mdke> jsgotangco, yesterday it was pingable
<mdke> today it is down
<mdke> i'll mail henrik
<jsgotangco> this is the serverpronto right?
<mdke> yes, POS
<jsgotangco> ahh even ours doesn't work
<mdke> ours?
<jsgotangco> (ubuntu-ph.org)
<Madpilot> ubuntu-ca.org works...
<mdke> oh, i thought that was on smurf's server
<jsgotangco> mdke, we just moved a week ago
<mdke> looks like serverpronto.com is down too
<mdke> jsgotangco, to your own one??
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, it is just a redirect
<jsgotangco> mdke, that's a canonical sponsored serverpronto that can still be shared to other teams
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> -> work
<Madpilot> --- doc.ubuntu.com ping statistics ---
<Madpilot> 12 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 10997ms
<Burgundavia> random funny stuff http://techdirt.com/articles/20060110/1818234_F.shtml
<Madpilot> ... also down...
<mdke> Madpilot, the website of the provider is down too, likely it is their problem
<mdke> Madpilot, doc and help are on the same machine
<Madpilot> ah - wasn't sure who was hosted where
<mdke> same ip ;)
<jsgotangco> wtf is that intentional
<jsgotangco> $80.86
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, can't be, it is share price
<Madpilot> manipulating your share price gets you in serious sh*t
<Madpilot> even if you're doing it for art's sake :D
<Burgundavia> region madness "A second batch of DVDs arrived last weekend, but could not be viewed as they were coded for North America only."
<Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4598200.stm
<Madpilot> odd - my own wiki homepage shows up in CategoryCleanup, and AFAIK it's never even been in that category at all... :P
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
<jsgotangco> bshumate, ping?
<hawking> anyone who has tried 2.6.15 in ubuntu?
<mdke>  [08:45:09]  < Madpilot> odd - my own wiki homepage shows up in CategoryCleanup, and AFAIK it's never even been in that category at all... :P
<mdke> Madpilot, "I've helped clean up the printer sections, and tried to reduce the length of the CategoryCleanup list a bit"
<mdke> it's just a FullSearch on that word
<hawking> I want to remove a corrupt package but neither apt-get nor aptitude can remove it what should i do?
<LaserJock> hawking: you can try sudo dpkg -r but you might want to try asking over in #ubuntu
<hawking> dpkg -r doesn't work either
<LaserJock> hawking: I'm not sure what to tell you then, what is dpkg-r giving you?
<mdke_> hawking, #ubuntu may be able to help
<hawking> ok
<mdke_> you'll need to give them the error message
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-17
<Madpilot> mdke_: "mdke	it's just a FullSearch on that word" - interesting - categories work differently than I assumed, then
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, they are quite simple in Moin, unlike Mediawiki which stores them as a table
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> categories in Moin keep confusing me :P
<mhz> Madpilot: what do you feel confusing about them?
<Madpilot> mhz: I assumed that categories only listed pages that had been explicitly added to that category - but if it's just a tweaked full search display, obviously they behave differently
<mhz> o
* mhz thinking
<Burgundavia> in mediawiki you can link to a category without joining it
<mhz> Madpilot: i dont quite understand you, sorry.
<Burgundavia> mhz, I think madpilot assumed that the adding category dropbox did somethign special
<Madpilot> mhz: I noticed that my own user page is listed in CatCleanup - and according to mdke_ it's because I have a link to CatCleanup in my page
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: yes, I did
<mhz> oooooh
<mhz> now I see
<Burgundavia> I didn't even find the drop box until last week
<Burgundavia> I always manually type out out the category
<mhz> me too
<Madpilot> I actually use the tools that're provided :P
<mhz> Madpilot: what's on your mind? what would you like to do?
<Madpilot> I was just confused about how Categories in Moin actually worked, that's all
<mhz> .oO(there are plenty of macros available to ease and help the mind)
<Madpilot> I was surprised to see my own homepage showing up in Cleanup, mostly...
<mhz> ok
<Madpilot> yeah, I've been reading the macro page in the help section, there's some interesting stuff there
<Burgundavia> Moin has some powerful features, it just exposes them terribly
<Burgundavia> it is very much "by developers, for developers"
<mhz> hehehehe
<mhz> unfortunately yes
<Madpilot> ...like no automatic linking from a subject page to it's talk/discussion page... (a la MediaWiki)
<Burgundavia> which makes it wrong for us
<mhz> Actually, I started a 'marketing approach' for them a year ago... I was the only one interested on that and another guy, once in a blue moon
<mhz> Madpilot: there are no /talk pages in Moin
<mhz> we always discuss at the bottom of a page
<mhz> (a la Moin wiki) :D
<Burgundavia> mhz, that is not good for a presentation doc
<Burgundavia> ala an encyclopedia article or a help page
<mhz> Burgundavia: yup, no good
<Madpilot> mhz: a number of pages do nevertheless have /talk pages, but finding them is a crapshoot
<Burgundavia> if it isn't exposed in the interface, it basically doesn't exist for 95% of users
<mhz> Madpilot: yup
<mhz> that's why I (in my wiki domains) always use ...Templates
<mhz> some Templates have a different look and feel, others have Macros, other 'includes' etc
<mhz> Actually, 2 years ago I was using Moin for: Biz quotes, AddressBook, Calendar, ToDo, CMS, PictureGallery, Blog, etc
<Burgundavia> it is nice that moin supports taht, but the chances of us actually getting that stuff on our moin wiki are basically nil
<mhz> some customers were subscribed to Product Catalogues (moin made) and were happy they got email notifications for updtes
<mhz> Burgundavia: yup, I know
<mhz> when I first got to Ubuntu project (booooofff long ago) I thought, "ok, we have to teach people to take advantage of Moin features..."
<mhz> Now, I have realized that is almost impossible to effectively do that
<mhz> as MANY just edit
<mhz> not using Categories, Templates, etc
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> social :)
<jsgotangco> technology won't solve that
<jsgotangco> unless you spearhead a wiki school i guess
<Burgundavia> mhz, I don't care to figure out how to use those features. But if you show me ready to use things I will happily use them
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: like you used the Category dropdown? :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, it can only do cat at a time and too be honest most docs need to hti clenaup as well
<mhz> jsgotangco: yes, I know I once offered to do a moin-school but have had 2nd thoughts because I feel it's more social stuff, very difficult to stop it. Now, I'd be happy to reconsider a moin-school esp. for people like Burgundavia 
<mhz> and Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> mhz, I don't want a school. I want a page showing me pre built things i can copy and paste
<mhz> and all these guys who want to 
<jsgotangco> bwahaha
<mhz> LOL
<Madpilot> there's a few tricks like that on the WikiGuide page - I threw the right-float ToC code on there, for example
<mhz> yup
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> Burgundavia: SyntaxReference ?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyntaxReference <-- now *that* is useful - thanks, mhz - adding to WikiGuide now too!
<mhz> Burgundavia: Madpilot: this is one the simplest and yet great examples of editing to imporve user reading
<mhz> http://druidwiki.org/
<mhz> (from Moin POV, of course)
<mhz> Madpilot: yw, I think there are few more... but geee! there are so many system pages that I never remember
<Burgundavia> mhz, my god, how did they get that two column?
<mhz> simply
<mhz> html table
<Burgundavia> other than that, it still falls down
<mhz> falls down?
<Burgundavia> the top is still an ugly mess
<mhz> syninim please? :D
<Burgundavia> there is no side bar
<mhz> oohhh
<mhz> Burgundavia: if you have ideas and want them to be 'rendered' by Moin, send me an email and I can try 
<mhz> to use Moin tricks
<Burgundavia> I want a sidebar on all pages, ala the mediawiki one
<Burgundavia> mhz, how do you turn off the breadcrumbs? Is that simple?
<Madpilot> isn't there a "show breadcrumbs" option on the User Prefs page?
<mhz> Burgundavia: well, we can have a 'section bar', something Nir Soffer did for Moin, and we could 'force' ( jsgotangco dont kick me) default NewPage to use that Template
<Burgundavia> mhz, can somebody remove that?
* mhz has no idea what 'breadcrumbs' are 
<mhz> please remember my english knowledge is limited
<Burgundavia> the top line of pages
<Burgundavia> blahpage >> blahpage >> blahpage
<Burgundavia> that usually have nothing to do with where you are or have gone
<mhz> ahhh, yes we can have None
<mhz> Burgundavia: all we use in Moin is CSS
<mhz> and .py
<mhz> so we can turn on/off whatever
<mhz> and usually those 'tabs' (we call them)
<mhz> are determined by the Moin admin
<Burgundavia> can you ping Hendrik and ask him to turn them off?
<mhz> hno73 ?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: go to your User Prefs page, untick the "show page trail" box - no more breadcrumbs for you
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I don't care about user prefs. I want good defaults
<mhz> Madpilot: ahhh, those were the 'breadcrumbs' ???
<mhz> the Page Trails!
* mhz thought there were the Tabs
<Madpilot> yeah - just turned mine off then on again; page trail = breadcrumbs
<mhz> Madpilot: visit www.tecnocimiento.cl
<mhz> I dont have the 'Edit or Show...' links
<mhz> just tabs
<Burgundavia> mhz, nor does ubuntu.com
<mhz> exactly
* Burgundavia grumbles at FF for random failures
<Burgundavia> there is a good chance work is going to continue shipping Epip and not switch to FF because of me
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> where do you work Corey?
<Burgundavia> Userful
<Kyral> and that is?
<Burgundavia> we do public computers, so there is no compelling reason to use FF
<Burgundavia> multihead Linux, primarily for use in public computing environments, such as a library
<Kyral> ah
<mhz> Burgundavia: nice!
<Kyral> I'm just an idiot college student :P
<mhz> Tecnocimiento is being forced to register as NGO because all projects we are trying here in Chile, they all have the 'feeling' of non-for-profit, and so people just dont believe in us because we are not NGO, just 'volunteers'
<Burgundavia> mhz, mein gott, your site actually looks half decent. My hats off to you
<Burgundavia> sadly you are still stuck with CamelCase
<mhz> Burgundavia: thx, that version is old, I am working on a new look (not sooo diff, but diff) for February
<mhz> Burgundavia: oh, yes
* mhz loves CamelCasing
<jsgotangco> i smell a flight 3 coming in a few days
<Burgundavia> I don't
<jsgotangco> why not? it looks pretty ok at the moment
<Burgundavia> depends if they delay X and UE until after
<Burgundavia> and the dev spring is coming up
<jsgotangco> ugghh the ff start page...
<Burgundavia> oh?
<jsgotangco> css horror
<jsgotangco> or is it ff 1.5?
<Burgundavia> I will look tomorrow
<jsgotangco> do you force an upgrade when its held back by apt?
<Burgundavia> what is being held back?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-desktop for starters
<Burgundavia> why is it being held back?
<jsgotangco> dunno
<Burgundavia> try and install it
<jsgotangco> i did a fresh install from a build last night
<jsgotangco> a fair number of packages are being held back
<jsgotangco> hmmm it wanted a dist-upgrade
<jsgotangco> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> hi jsgotangco 
<robitaille> I hate murphy's law:  you have a bug, reproduce multiple time.  Finally go around to do a screenshot and file the report, then you can't reproduce it anymore...
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, robitaille are you guys using synaptic trackapd?
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  yes
<jsgotangco> robitaille, experienced slowdown?
<robitaille> no.  
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes, haven't tested recently
<jsgotangco> ok
<robitaille> neither before of after the package upgrade tonight.
<jsgotangco> wow i just did 39 seconds on bootchart
<robitaille> my record is 37s in late Decembre.  Now it hangs on the network settings...
<Burgundavia> what were the hoary cds called?
<Burgundavia> ne vmind
<mdke_> jsgotangco, what's up with the start page? screenshot?
<mdke> i wrote a much shortened start page based on about-ubuntu, playing with the idea of uploading it instead of the current one, but there might not be a lot of point, if start.ubuntu.com is going to happen
<Burgundavia> mdke, there is no movement on s.u.c yet
<mdke> ok
<mdke> mpt, btw how is AboutUbuntu? any progress?
<mdke> Burgundavia, so what do you think, shall we use the short page?
<Burgundavia> mdke, lets make it ready to go, and if s.u.c happens, so be it, if not, we are sitting pretty
<mdke> ok then I'll upload it and people can review.
<mdke> i hope the new about ubuntu happens tho
<mdke> mpt said much of the code was done
<mdke> at UBZ
<mdke> -> work
<mpt> mdke, haven't had time to polish it up yet :-(
<Burgundavia> mpt, is it likely to make dapper at this point?
<mpt> yes, provided that I get an hour or two with someone to teach me how to package it
<Burgundavia> mpt, bug ajmitch
<Burgundavia> mpt, he has the time and can probably help you right now
<mpt> yes, I'll bug him at LCA
<Burgundavia> cool
<mpt> mmm, new X-Chat is purty
<Burgundavia> the -gnome one?
<mpt> no, the Aqua one :-)
* mpt ducks
<Burgundavia> mpt, would you mind taking a look at xchat-gnome in dapper? They are looking for people to help them with UI issues
<mpt> I have no machine with room for Dapper
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> that xchat-gnome is hideous
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, then bug upstream about what you don't like
<Burgundavia> #xchat-gnome on this network
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i just used it today
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> is it an official gnome project?
<Burgundavia> but remember that all of us are used to hacking around xchat
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> hmm why is it there?
<Burgundavia> where?
<jsgotangco> with the default install
<Burgundavia> because mdz put it there
<mpt> It's in the default install?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> but Gaim already does IRC
<Burgundavia> but shitily
<Burgundavia> we have had xchat in there for a since warty
<mpt> so xchat-gnome is hideous, but less hideous than Gaim?
<Burgundavia> -gnome is not really what you would call mature UI wise
<Burgundavia> it is a fork of xchat, so the underlying bits are sane
* mpt wonders what happened to gnome-chat
<Burgundavia> dead, as of 2 years ago
<mpt> well, sounds like fun
<mpt> I've long wanted to design an IRC client :-)
<jsgotangco> yay
<mdke> jsgotangco, what was your bug in the FF homepage?
<mdke> screenshot?
<jsgotangco> the text only filled up 3/4 of the screen esteate like it was forced to inside a table
<mdke> jsgotangco, it's intentional that it doesn't use the whole screen, it makes text easier to read
<Madpilot> whitespace != wasted space :P
<mdke> maybe we can arrange it better tho
<mdke> i didn't want to center it
<jsgotangco> it made the page longer for sure
<mdke> i'll get the short one in for the next upload
<mdke> done
<rulerofwar> hello
<hawking> Does anyone know what package creates /etc/X11/xkb?
<segfault> hawking: dpkg -S /etc/X11/xkb
<jjesse> good morning, shouldn't we remove any references to bugzilla in the docs and update them to malone per the announcement email?
<mgalvin> jjesse: i would say yes
<jsgotangco> greetings
<jjesse> mgalvin: do you know if in malone ubuntu and kubuntu are the same distro?  for example https://launchpad.net/distro/ubuntu/
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> its the same
<jsgotangco> relatively speaking
<jjesse> btw i love the wiki pages DapperFlight2 and DapperFlight3
<jsgotangco> i haven't seen Flight3 page yet
<mgalvin> i think they are, mostly (there is no https://launchpad.net/distro/kubuntu/) so
<mgalvin> jjesse: thanks :)
<jjesse> grin i found it on RecentChanges
<jjesse> mgalvin: you need Kubuntu Screen shots on it as well :)
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> did you ever create a kubuntu flight 2 page?
<jjesse> no i never did
<jjesse> got busy doing the release notes
<jjesse> which are current
<jjesse> jsgotangco: have you had any time to work on kubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> jjesse, yeah, just finishing up my contract with my employer till next month
<mgalvin> ah, well, i don't mind putting some kubuntu screenshots on it, please feel free to add a section for it if you like (or just send me some screenshots)
<jsgotangco> jjesse, feb i would be relatively free by that time
<jsgotangco> (we're moving too btw)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: cool
<jjesse> good luck w/ the move
<mgalvin> jjesse: although, if there is enough to cover, just create a KubuntuDapperFlight3 page and use DapperFlight3 as a template for it
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> the obvious big changes we'll have to put in are probably hmmm katapult as default
<jsgotangco> i haven't seen that much big changes on it unless riddell will upload what he has been blogging lately
<jjesse> jsgotangco: the releasenotes in svn are current for dapper
<jjesse> i work w/ Riddell all the time to keep them current
<jsgotangco> i got an updated svn
<jsgotangco> i still check every now and then
<jsgotangco> to be honest the more i use SuSE every now and then, the more I begin to see Kubuntu's weaknesses
<mgalvin> jjesse: i
<jjesse> yes mgalvin 
<jjesse> ?
<mgalvin> 'll take a peak at your release notes in svn
<mgalvin> sorry, hit <enter> by mistake :-/
<jjesse> ok repos/trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml
<mgalvin> k, cool, thanks
<mgalvin> i'll also d/l a copy of kubuntu so i can take some screenshots
<mgalvin> i should have some time to do it before flight 3 is released
<jjesse> k thanks, busy at work on a project
<mgalvin> sure, np
<mgalvin> i should try out kubuntu anyway :)
<jjesse> i have a dapper build that i use w/ qemu so i don't mess up my work latpop
<jsgotangco> i smell flight 3 in a week....
<jjesse>  RoseAnn, 
<jjesse> 
<jjesse>  At the bottom of our webpage, www.ftpb.com, there is a link to 
<jjesse> "Intranet". If you click on that, it will ask for a username and a 
<jjesse> password. If you provide the network username and password it will 
<jjesse> open up your email. 
<jjesse> doh
<jjesse> wrong window
<jjesse> jsgotangco: riddell mentioned this week hopefully
<jsgotangco> nice you use IRC at work hehehe
<jjesse> yup
<mgalvin> i tried to get people at my job to use IRC too, that lasted about a week, then the next moday everone forgets to open xchat and that was that... oh well :-/
<jsgotangco> at work, we use skype
<mgalvin> people are so lazy sometimes
<mgalvin> i set up an internal jabber server so we all use that now
<mgalvin> more secure this way anyway
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't want to rely on it but unfortunately, the higher ups are so used to it and won't even budge
<jjesse> it depends on the person, aim, icq or email
<jjesse> welcome gobbe 
<jjesse> gobbe is interested in helping w/ kubuntu docs :)
<jsgotangco> heyyy
* jsgotangco gives gobbe a konqi hug 
* gobbe gives a konqi hug back ;)
<jsgotangco> would you like a chameleon? heh
<jsgotangco> ok gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> see you all (hopefully) in the meeting
<jsgotangco> please come *sigh*
<LaserJock> mdke: -devel reminds me, will I get an email from elmo for svn access?
<mdke> good point
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, when its done
<LaserJock> oh, ok. I didn't know if it was an email thing or maybe a LP thing or what
<mdke> he'll mail you user/pass
<mdke> encrypted
<LaserJock> ahh, I see
<Burgwork> mdke, I have asked for permissions to the main website
<Burgwork> I'd like to start a dialog about fixing up the main website as well
<Burgwork> mostly the main page
<LaserJock> Burgwork: is that within the doc-team's realm?
<mdke> Burgwork, make sure you talk first, act afterwards
<mdke> LaserJock, no
<Burgwork> mdke, nah, I like shooting from the hip ;)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the main website is sort of marketing, really
<LaserJock> oh, I just wondered who was responsible for it
<mdke> LaserJock, the canonical people who do marketing, and henrik, the webmaster
<mdke> Burgwork, i know, that's why i said it ;)
<Burgwork> mdke, it only looks that way
<Burgwork> LaserJock, but we currently have no community marketing team
<mdke> unsurprisingly
<mdke> marketing should be for those who do it for a living, imo
<mdke> at least the decision making
<LaserJock> true
<Burgwork> mdke, no, you can have a successful community marketing team, you just need a strong central voice
<mdke> as I said, "at least the decision making"
<Burgwork> hence the DIYMarketing page
<Burgwork> we need more of that
<mgalvin> Burgwork: hey i can understand moding the splash section... but can i ask why u removed the intro segue?
<mgalvin> additionally, i'm not done yet, when its done i will send and email to the list stating that it is ready for review and such
<Burgwork> mgalvin, sorry, my overzealous red pen
<mgalvin> :), no worries, was just wondering if there was some specific reason
<Burgwork> mgalvin, oh and Kamion said he loved your work
<mgalvin> Burgwork: i added back the intro segue with "I" since i feel in this case it adds a personal touch and provokes reader enthusiasm, but left your other change (i should not put my personal views there )
<mgalvin> cool, glad to hear people like it :)
<Burgwork> mgalvin, ok, sounds good
<Burgwork> mgalvin, Kamion = Colin Watson = number 2 on the distro team
<mgalvin> i know who he is :) i worked with him on DapperFlight2 also
<Burgwork> ok
<mgalvin> Burgwork: about LiveCDPersistence... I would like to create a wiki page that describes dappers live cd persistance... do you think moding this page is best or should I create the seperate DapperLiveCDPersistence page?
<mgalvin> (asking you since it says you were the last person to touch it)
<Burgwork> mgalvin, create a general page, not specific to dapper
<Burgwork> try and avoid $releasenname in the name unless the target audience is  Ubuntu developers
<mgalvin> ok, do you think it would be best to overwrite/replace LiveCDPersistence or add  two sections (since it already has hoary content)?
<mgalvin> meaning replace it with the new dapper way of doing it
<Burgwork> mgalvin, add a new section of Ubuntu 6.04
<Burgwork> actually, no overwrite the hoary stuff
<Burgwork> it is only alive cd
<mgalvin> yea, we could always recover the old hoary stuff if someone complains
<Burgwork> if it was discussing something on an installed system I would go for the first option
<mgalvin> ok, this page is just and old way of getting persistance... it should not be needed any more
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-18
<Burgwork> hello LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi Burgwork 
<mdke> morning
<mdke> haha
<mdke> "dash off a little wiki page"
* mdke hugs bshumate 
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> stop fan boy-ing bshumate 
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> what can I say
<mdke> we need people who write things in this team :)
<jsgotangco> :P
<mdke> -> work
<damnhil> how do I make words bold or italic in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ edit?
<Burgundavia> bold is '''your text'''
<Burgundavia> I believe italic is ''yourtext''
<jsgotangco> mdke, i dunno, the shorter page is much better but we still have 1/4 white space at the right...
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> yo!
<Madpilot> morning all
<highvoltage> yo js
<highvoltage> <tab><enter>
<mdke> jsgotangco, as I said, that's intentional: white space makes it easier to read
<jsgotangco> looks pretty bad to me in my opinion
<mdke> ok
<mdke> we need some white space, it is pretty universally acknowledged that it helps readability I believe
<mdke> we can try changing the layout though
<LaserJock> mdke: meeting?
<mdke> can't make it, am busy at work
<mdke> :/
<LaserJock> mdke: well, that's a bummer
<mdke> i can never make this time of day
<jsgotangco> mdke, we'll just have to do with 22:00UTC meetings next time
<jsgotangco> because 14:00UTC is an unholy hour for most of you
<Madpilot> 2200UTC I'm almost always at work (with no IRC access...) - awful as it is, 1400Z is usually the only time I can make it :P
<jsgotangco> i'll just wake up earlier :)
<mdke> i can do this time at weekends, i guess
<jsgotangco> its ok we'll just do 22:00 to 24:00 rob doesn't come much lately, we did this sched for him
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, sorry about that
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: no problem, it's hard to find a time that half-works for most people...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:jsgotangco] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting at #ubuntu-meeting
<LaserJock> heah, is String Freeze when all the docs have to be finalized?
<mdke> yes, no string changes after that
<LaserJock> hmm, on DapperReleaseSchedule there is String Freeze and Documentation String Freeze, what's the difference?
<mdke> String Freeze applies to programs, Documentation SF applies to documentation
<jjesse> there is some time between the two so docs can up with programs
<LaserJock> oh, duh
<LaserJock> I'm trying to gauge what can/should be done for the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> bshumate: how long did it take you to write the LinuxLogFiles page?
<mgalvin> hey guys, i just sent and email to the list but LiveCDPersistence is ready for review if anyone has time, thnx
<Burgwork> mgalvin, you want to cc the devel is list on that? I under the live cd stuff might change over time
<mgalvin> i already ping Mithrandir about it, i will be sure work those issues with him to make sure the doc stays current
<mgalvin> Burgwork: but thnx for the pointer
<Burgwork> mgalvin, having what to do documented is also useful for figuring out which parts to automate and make easier
<mgalvin> yup, definitely
<Burgwork> maybe at the bottom of that page we could have a link or a section about hacking on the livecd stuff ot make it better, who to talk to and what needs to be done
<LaserJock> mgalvin: oh, cool. I've been waiting for this. I used to use Knoppix with a usbstick
<Burgwork> we just need a gui now
<mgalvin> Burgwork: sure... you want to add it or shall I?
<LaserJock> where did capser-cow come from ?
<Burgwork> mgalvin, go nuts, I know next to nothing
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the name?
<LaserJock> yeah
<mgalvin> LaserJock: hehe, that what they called it
<mgalvin> Burgwork: ok i'll add that info
<Burgwork> http://www.bcdb.com/cartoon_synopsis/15929-Puss_%27n_Boos.html
<Burgwork> ^ the only non ubuntu related link I could find
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> do the daily-live's actually work or would it be better to try Flight2/3 ?
<mgalvin> Burgwork: actually i'll check with tollef first and make sure he is ok with putting his info and stuff there
<mgalvin> LaserJock: i tried yesterdays daily-live and had a few issues, but it did work for tollef, but he wrote it, no one else has really tested it yet
<mgalvin> try today's daily and find out ;)
<mgalvin> i didn't try it yet
<mgalvin> i will when i get home
<LaserJock> hmm, ok
<mgalvin> LaserJock: this is what i ran into and found
<mgalvin> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-January/014534.html
<LaserJock> oh, darn. I left all my sticks at home. I'll have to try it tomorrow
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-19
<LaserJock> Kyral: got your connection undercontrol? :-)
<hyperactivecrond> hey all
<mdke> hello
<Burgwork> salut
<hyperactivecrond> yo
<mdke> -> bed
<hyperactivecrond> later
<hyperactivecrond> has there been any posting on the lists? i haven't got anything lately...
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, no wiki team for you! ;) Just kidding. I approved you
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: are there ever wiki team meetings?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, no, they are merged into the great doc team meetings
<Madpilot> LaserJock: wikiteam = docteam, pretty much
<Burgundavia> *greater
<LaserJock> ok, just wondered
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: thanks :)
<LaserJock> I did a svn status in my checkout of the repo and I have several lines beginning with a ? that are files in ubuntu/desktopguide/C/db/ what does that mean?
<Madpilot> LaserJock: man svn might tell you :)
<Madpilot> bleh, never mind, it doesn't... 
<LaserJock> well, I am looking in the svn book but I think I know what it means
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure what to do about it
<Madpilot> svn status on my checkout gives me a ? on one old .diff of mine that I haven't deleted yet, and two docs that AFAIK I've never touched - not sure
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know what happened to mine
<LaserJock> Madpilot: do you have anything in ubuntu/desktopguide/C/db/ ?
<Madpilot> when I run "svn status"? No.
<LaserJock> at all?
<LaserJock> I mean if you "ls" the directory?
<Madpilot> it's empty
<Madpilot> actually, no it's not, there's a dot file there - .svn
<Madpilot> run "ls -la"
<LaserJock> ok, I have 9 files in there
<Madpilot> all I show w/ "ls -la" is one file, .svn
<Madpilot> you can delete the whole directory then run svn up if you think you've got stuff accumulated in there that shouldn't be there
<LaserJock> so svn up doesn't delete anything? or just doesn't delete files that have changed locally?
<Madpilot> TBH, I'm not sure - it won't delete files that're created locally, like .diff files
<LaserJock> Madpilot: ok, thanks for the help
<Madpilot> np 
<Madpilot> I should do some reading on SVN & CVS soon, I want to start a personal archive for some of my own projects...
<LaserJock> well, I need to start using svn and svn-buildpackage for packaging and I will hopefully get docteam repo access soon so I better know what I'm doing :-)
<LaserJock> I've never really had to use svn or CVS much other than to checkout source for apps
<Madpilot> likewise
<LaserJock> then I also need to wrap my head around bzr
<robitaille> Madpilot:  why don't you bry bzr?  it's pretty simply to start keeping track of changes for some of your local files
<robitaille> s/bry/try
<LaserJock> it does seem to be better suited for local repositories
<LaserJock> but I need to learn svn too since it is used soo much
<LaserJock> I think I have one repo in svn and one in bzr  :-)
<Madpilot> robitaille: I'll have a look, maybe later this weekend - one app I use a lot (Screem) uses CVS too, so it would be nice to take advantage of that integration
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, are you going downtown tomorrow?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: doesn't look like it - I thought I was (I'm not working, anyway)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, would you be able to swing by before 12 with a printed copy so I could photocopy some?
<dsas> What's the best way to get involved with the doc team?
<crimsun> dsas: have you read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects and checked out https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos ?
<dsas> crimsun, i'll check those out, thanks.
<mdke> crimsun, future reference: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<mdke> i'll stick it in the topic
<crimsun> mdke: great, thanks
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:mdke] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next Meeting: 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: at #ubuntu-meeting
<hyperactivecrond> hmm... *thursday's news* if macbooks and imacs have intel procs... this needs to be documented i assume...?
<hyperactivecrond> for installation
<hyperactivecrond> expensive as balls for the macbook pro
<tac0> hi
<mdke> hi tac0 
<tac0> when i boot from the live cd
<tac0> it goes then i get 'x server failed to load'
<tac0> or something like that :|
<mdke> you'll need #ubuntu for that, I'm afraid
<mdke> this is the documentation team
<tac0> well im in there and i went to the help site and saw this channel
<tac0> so i thought id try ;)
<mdke> ok I'm gonna try a new apache configuration on the help/doc.ubuntu.com, hopefully will make things a bit quicker
<mdke> looks better
<mdke> if anyone sees this, test and report
<crimsun> seems pretty snappy
<crimsun> can't comment on prior
<mdke> slow as hell :)
<crimsun> then sure, I'd say it's a considerable difference
<mdke> good
<mdke> tricky to tell how it performs at different times
<mdke> maybe there is some kind of utility for that sort of thing
<Madpilot> mdke: they both seem fast - faster than they used to be, I'm pretty sure
<Madpilot> There's still a CSS bug in both pages, though - one that Opera catches & FF doesn't...
<Madpilot> in Opera the top banner doesn't touch the top or sides of the window
<Madpilot> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fhelp.ubuntu.com%2F
<Madpilot> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> oh, i'll have a look at that, thanks
<mdke> i remember you raised it before, but I kinda left it for henrik
<Madpilot> yeah. It's not a bug that FF catches, so I'm not surprised it's been ignored :P
<mdke> i can't believe you use opera dude
<mdke> shocking stuff
<Madpilot> FF feels crippled in it's default install - I'd have to spend a couple of days installing plugins - some of which might not work - to get FF to do everything Opera does right out of the box...
<mdke> i like epiphany
<mdke> Madpilot, the css validates, which of those html validation problems is the cause, do you know?
<Madpilot> not sure, I haven't looked thru the entire validation report
<Madpilot> Epiphany has some nice features - I like how it handles bookmarks
<mdke> the only thing i miss from firefox is the rss feed bookmark things
<Madpilot> mdke: in the css file for both pages, add "padding:0" to the body tag as well as margin:0 - that should solve the Opera issue
<mdke> ok
<Madpilot> it's not exactly a bug, but opera & FF make different basic assumptions about padding/margins by default
<mdke> i can't see anything wrong with the html
<mdke> he's used these php files
<mdke> Madpilot, ok i did padding:0 for doc.u.c, see if it helps?
<Madpilot> yes, that's got it
<mdke> good
<mdke> thanks v much
<Madpilot> I always start w/ padding:0;margin:0 in body, so I forget that different browsers have different defaults...
<mdke> i can't really be bothered with the html validation errors now... 
<Madpilot> most of them are pretty minor, and don't seem to be affecting display at all
<mdke> if you want to play around, I can give you a login, otherwise, I'm happy to have solved the css thing
<Madpilot> the "<link rel="icon" type="image/png...." tag shouldn't end in a / though - this is HTML, not XHTML
* mdke nods
<mdke> </link>?
<Madpilot> maybe later, I don't really have time right now - I should be doing other stuff aside from IRC right at this minute :P
<mdke> hehe, ok thanks again
<Madpilot> no, just end it with a plain >
<Madpilot> like the stylesheet link right above it
<Madpilot> I'm pretty sure that that stray / is the cause of the 1st & 2nd HTML validation errors
<LaserJock> hi bshumate 
<mdke> LaserJock, saw your question about the extra files in desktopguide, they are normal
<mdke> they're used for generation of the links database
<LaserJock> oh, so when I build html?
<mdke> yes, i believe so
<LaserJock> geeze mdke your going to get them mad at me ;-)
<mdke> nah
<mdke> anything with a "?" in svn means that you've added it but its not under version control
<LaserJock> yeah, I got that far I just wondered where they came from
<LaserJock> but if a file is deleted from the svn repo it is deleted from my local copy unless I have modified it, correct?
<mdke> if you do "svn up"
<mdke> dunno what happens if you've modified it
<LaserJock> well, it doesn't get rid of my local changes to the packaging guide
<mdke> ah good
<mdke> want me to commit anything on that?
<LaserJock> umm, not quite yet
<LaserJock> I wanted to get close to what is already there, I just integrated an example that theCore
<LaserJock> and if I add some stuff, I think I will be ready to commit when I get commit access :-)
<LaserJock> mdke: I think some people have used the current doc.ubuntu.com packaging guide so I don't want to get rid of that until I have something that at least approaches replacing it. Does that make sense?
<mdke> LaserJock, sure, sorry for late reply
<LaserJock> ok, np
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-20
<bustacap> can't log a bug against libc6 on Malone..
<bustacap> sorry wrong channel
<Madpilot_elsewhe> ah, that's better (and browner!) - running a LiveCD on a relative's Win98 machine now :P
<Madpilot_elsewhe> the sad thing is that the LiveCD is about as fast as the Win98 install...
<Madpilot_catsit> hi robitaille
<robitaille> hi Madpilot_catsit  (that's a long nick :) )
<Madpilot_catsit> a long nick on a slow machine :P
<Madpilot_catsit> I'm running a Breezy LiveCD on my grandparent's cranky Win98 machine, and looking after a herd of cats
<Madpilot_catsit> ...and a Doberman who thinks she's a housecat... :P
<robitaille> sounds fun.  
<robitaille> so are you going to erase that copy of win98?
<Madpilot_catsit> we've been talking about setting up a dual-boot, actually
<Madpilot_catsit> tempting as outright earasure is, I'd be skinned alive afterward :P
<robitaille> why don't you do i if you have a disk space?  With the default grub option going to Win98.  Then if they ever have the time, or are curious, they could login into Ubuntu to test it out
<Madpilot_catsit> not enough space on the HD currently - we need to clear about another 500Mb to get Ubuntu installed
<mdke> jjesse, i noticed your edit to the kubuntu release notes recently. You should use entities for urls, so that you don't have to always change them every time they occur, but only in one place. See libs/global.ent for all the various entities that exist already.
<mdke> -> bed
<Spitty> Hello everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-21
<Spitty> I was wondering what the proceedure is for adding to the "HardwareSupportMachinesLaptopsCompaq" wiki page is?  I've read the wikiguide and the styleguide... so, could I just go in add add an entry for my laptop?
<Burgundavia> Spitty, yep
<Spitty> ok, thanks
<Burgundavia> Spitty, in generally, just edit the wiki. If you make a mistake, somebody will generally clean it up
<Spitty> ok, great
<Spitty> this is probably a silly question, but is there a different syntax on the ubuntu wiki for the username than the launchpad username?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> ah, wait, yes
<Burgundavia> the lp username is usually not the wiki username
<Spitty> I ask because i just created a lp username, and i can log in to lp just fine- i can even mange my username for the ubuntu wiki, but hen i go to actually log in to the ubuntu wiki, i get a "wrong password" error
<Burgundavia> try logging in with your email addy
<Spitty> ah ha! that worked
<hyperactivecrond> *yawn*
<Kyral> *smack*
<hyperactivecrond> thx kyral
<hyperactivecrond> i guess
<hyperactivecrond> did i do something wrong?
* hyperactivecrond slaps hyperactivecrond around a bit with a large trout
<poningru> guys I had a question why are we still putting cli answers in documentation?
<poningru> we should be able to give all gui answers
<LaserJock> poningru: do you think we are able to do that?
<poningru> well I am not saying for everything
<poningru> but for things where that is availble
<poningru> for example howto install something
<poningru> we tell them apt-get install blahblah
<poningru> instead of telling them go to system->admin->synaptic
<poningru> search for blahblah
<poningru> and install blahblah
<LaserJock> hmm, were do you see that?
<LaserJock> poningru: I mean are you talking about Breezy documentation or the current Dapper stuff?
<poningru> breezy
* poningru hasnt even looked at dapper stuff
<LaserJock> poningru: the latest stuff should be at doc.ubuntu.com if it is up
<LaserJock> I think the general idea is to use gui answers where possible but I'm not very knowledgeble person around here to answer your question
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<bhuvan> quit
<mgalvin> hey guys DapperFlight3 is ready in case anyone has time to review it... but please *do not* make any major changes as the flight 3 annoucement will be out *very* soon (its already in the moderation queue)
<hyperactivecrond> mgalvin: gui inetaller yet?
<hyperactivecrond> installer*
<mgalvin> hyperactivecrond: no gui install yet
<hyperactivecrond> :| ok
<gobbe> i would like to test it
* hyperactivecrond and kyral need it for install guide.... eventually...
<jjesse> gobbe: the kubuntu daily from friday is supposed to be the flight3 cd
<gobbe> ok
<jjesse> mdke: are the release notes being put up on doc.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> for kubuntu?
<jjesse> they are currently accurate and i'm seeing some questions on what will all be in dapper and thought we could start pointing people there?
<mdke> jjesse, just need to make sure they build in the "make web" target and in the right hand menu (edit teamstuff/doc.ubuntu.com/sidebar)
<jjesse> mdke: ok i can look into it
<mdke> jjesse, cool, if not, i'll do it later
<Burgwork> mgalvin, how did you create those menu shots?
<mgalvin> Burgwork: i took a full screen shot, selected out the menu, pasted it into a new window, re-select (in the new window) "just the menu and the panel" then... script fu shadow
<Burgwork> mgalvin, ah, I see
<mgalvin> i found it helps to set your desktop background color to white before you take the screen shots so it is easier to select what you want
* Burgwork appoints mgalvin to take all screenshots int he future
<mgalvin> :)
* mgalvin accepts appointment :)
<LaserJock> darn, where is the info on how to help Ubuntu?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, HelpingUbuntu
<LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks
<jjesse> mgalvin: if you are doing all screenshots dont forget kubuntu screenshots :P
<mgalvin> jjesse: i'll try and do those too :)
<mgalvin> jjesse: sorry... i didn't get to take any for DapperFlight3, i just found out this morning it was going to be released today and I had to rush to finish it
<jjesse> mgalvin: no worries
<mdke> jjesse, not quite, couple of things you need to change
<mdke> in the Makefile, find the line web: about-web quick-web server-web release-web adept-web
<jjesse> ok
<mdke> change release-web to release-notes-web
<jjesse> done
<mdke> then in the teamstuff/doc.u.c/sidebar file
<mdke> find the line you added
<mdke> change it to:
<jjesse> ok
<mdke>  <li><a href="kubuntu/release-notes-web/C/index.html">Release Notes</a></li>
<jjesse> done
<mdke> commit
<jjesse> thanks for the help it was easier then i thought :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> let's see if it works, i'll trigger a build
<jjesse> hopefully
<mdke> you didn't commit the makefile i think
<mdke> ah now you did
<mdke> ah crap
<mdke> the makefile is a bit broken
<jjesse> oh
<mdke> I'll have to fix that tomorrow I'm afraid
<jjesse> ok
<mdke> it's because riddell moved the builds to a new directory
<mdke> i assume it was intentional
<jjesse> i do not know
<mdke> i'll ask
<mdke> bbl
<hyperactivecrond> for the install guide are we actually going to do the docbook install guide or are we just going to do a pdf and put it on the cd?
<Burgwork> docbook, becaseu we can generate pdf ffrom it
<hyperactivecrond> ah
<hyperactivecrond> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-22
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<theCore> LaserJock, so, what do you think of my draft?
<LaserJock> theCore: check out http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/
<LaserJock> it is a build Ijust did of what we've got
<LaserJock> it still needs lots of work ;-)
<LaserJock> brb, give me a minute to start an experiment
<theCore> an experiment?
<LaserJock> yeah, i'm a chemist
<theCore> lol, yeah i know, but type of experiment ? ( i'm just too curious ;) )
<LaserJock> oh, laying super thin layers of polymer on a piece of thin glass and then shooting it with a laser
<theCore> cool, I become excited with each time somebody says the word `` experiment '', it is stronger than me.
<LaserJock> lol, well you just don't want the "explosive" kind of experiments
<LaserJock> we, had a small bottle of compressed gas explode in the lab a few years ago
<LaserJock> it wasn't pretty
<theCore> oh, however those are fun when they are intended
<LaserJock> sure
<theCore> I must go a few hours, so see ya later
<tck> hello
<LaserJock> hi
<tck> Are you part of the Ubuntu Documentation team ?
<LaserJock> kinda
<LaserJock> I mean yes, but that doesn't mean I can answer all your questions
<tck> Hmm I would like to contribute if you are looking for people.
<LaserJock> oh, we always welcome contribution
<tck> Great! How does one go about joining ?
<LaserJock> well, you can just start working on things. Are you familiar with wiki.ubuntu.com
<tck> I am viewing that yes and a few others.
<LaserJock> ok, well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted has good info about getting involved with the doc team
<tck> thanks I will read it :)
<LaserJock> but basically there are two areas that we work, one is the wiki and the other is the documentation that gets shipped with the K/Ubuntu cds
<tck> ah yes
<LaserJock> so anybody can edit the wiki so you can help out there
<tck> the final turns out at help.ubuntu.org
<LaserJock> and the in-progress documentation is at doc.ubuntu.com
<tck> Nothing annoys me more than finding spelling mistakes :D
<tck> And have been with ubuntu from the very start, so thought i'd help out.
<LaserJock> well that's a good quality to have and any help is appreciated
<tck> Yes I was viewing the doc link
<LaserJock> if you have a fairly good connection you can get the docteam svn repo (~170MB) and work on it and then send patches to the mailing list (ubuntu-doc)
<LaserJock> but basically it is a pretty open process
<tck> :)
<LaserJock> if you have any changes you can send them to the mailing list but it is easier if they are in patch form
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo also has wiki pages that need some love :-)
<LaserJock> tck: so did I help you out enough or do you need more?
<tck> no that's quite sufficient
<tck> thank you
<tck> im going to get xfce4 onto my system and then have a good read :)
<LaserJock> np
<tck> talk to you later :)
<LaserJock> ok
* bhuvan is going to remove serverguide/C/sample/*
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: /win 11
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: sorry, trying to multitask here, please ignore :)
<gobbe> =)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-15
<nixternal> wow, the switching guide for kubuntu is in, let's say, uber nasty condition
<mdke> nixternal: good job on getting it to build etc
<mdke> what's wrong with it?
<Admiral_Chicago> everything
<mdke> I haven't read all of the Ubuntu one, but it looks rather good
<nixternal> well the info there is OK, but there is so much not there
<nixternal> and none of it ever validated, which is beyond me
<mdke> does it validate now?
<nixternal> oh ya, validates and builds seperately and with tbh
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: if you want, mail me if you need me to help / how to help
<mdke> good job
<Admiral_Chicago> i don't know about docbooks/xml but I can try
<mdke> I'm exchanging forum PMs with a forum member who is interested in contributing too
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: it is so easy actually
<nixternal> but i will take plain test right about now
<nixternal> awesome mdke
<mdke> and we should get hold of Phil Bull again and give him svn access
<nixternal> the more the merrier for sure this time around
<mdke> he contributed loads to that guide
<nixternal> most definitely
<nixternal> he did the entire switching guide iirc
<nixternal> and he did it fast
<mdke> can you catch up with him for me and ask him if he's interested in doing a bit more?
<nixternal> sure
<mdke> rock
<mdke> let's get that baby back on the road
<nixternal> i just recently spoke with him, and if he isn't busy i am sure he will be more than happy
<mdke> he applied for the wikiteam yesterday, so he's obviously around
<nixternal> oh sweet. i will fire him and email now then
<mpt> hehe
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: ^^ re: wiki team! or are you already on there? mr. want-to-do-it-all :)
* mdke hugs mpt
* mpt hugs mdke 
<nixternal> to many short nicks starting with m
* nixternal group hugs mdke and mpt
<mpt> yay, group hug
<nixternal> you guys make my work easy :)
* mdke hugs back to nixternal 
<nixternal> awesome work on that glossary btw
<mpt> It's not reeeeeally a glossary
<mpt> It's not "what does this mean"
<mpt> but more "Where do I find the equivalent to _____"
<mpt> but thanks :-)
<mpt> Is anyone here running Edgy?
<mpt> er, Feisty, I mean
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> For my next trick, I'll need a screenshot of a vanilla Feisty desktop
<mpt> (ok, who am I kidding, all Ubuntu desktops are chocolate, but as vanilla as possible)
<NewUnit16> anyone have any experience with instanbul?
<mpt> with the default panel setup, default background, and the help window open
<tonyyarusso> NewUnit16: A little bit.  I found it less than optimal.
<mdke> mpt: meh, ok. Reason?
<mpt> mdke, so I can add lots of numbered circles to it for a "this is how the Ubuntu desktop works" page for the "New to Ubuntu 7.04?" section
<nixternal> doesn't the current feisty desktop look the same as the edgy desktop? or has the GNOME side been rocking out artwork?
<mpt> If it does, that makes life easier, I can do it myself
<mpt> but I don't know
<nixternal> if im not mistaken, Herd1 definitely looked the same
<mpt> For example, is Deskbar included? If so, does it have a panel applet by default? If not, why not? etc
<nixternal> what i normally do with images, is put in <!--placeholders--> and then the last week before freeze create them so they are as close as possible to the finished product
<mpt> I think in this particular case, the risk of a slightly-out-of-date image would be better than the risk of none at all
<nixternal> very true
<mdke> mpt: the screenshot program is crashing...
<mdke> but certainly, the artwork will change
<mpt> ok
<mpt> Meanwhile, we really need to hide the contents panel for all our standalone pages
<mpt> because they all have only one section
<mpt> grrr
* mpt dropped a breadcrumb into his keyboard and now his Zs are intermittent
<nixternal> lol
<mpt> alias br=bzr
<mpt> That's that dealt with ;-)
<mdke> mpt: http://mdke.org/tmp/default.png
<mdke> I installed the aptly named "scrot" instead of gnome-screenshot
<mpt> scrot? um ...
<mdke> great name
* mdke goes to sleep
* mpt was too subtle there, obviously
<mpt> Oh, wow, I'd forgotten about the Big Red Pimple in the top right corner :-(
<mdke> me too
<mdke> that is there simply to save Mark from adding it to his panel
<mdke> :)
<mpt> The power button on his laptop broke off, perhaps
<mpt> goodnight mdke :-)
<mdke> night
<mpt> and thanks for the screenshot
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: you around? Connection problems lately?
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: He's not at home, and apparently Alberta's internet is lacking.
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: around yes
<Burgundavia> connection problems, intermittant wireless
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: ah
<nixternal> argh, i hate when i make a mistake in the debian/control file and it gets all the way to the end of compiling and building, and then errors out :)
<crimsun> must be that silly kate thing.
<nixternal> vi
<nixternal> dh_install on a file that I removed from the repos
<crimsun> nvi or vim? ;)
<nixternal> vim-full
<crimsun> culprit!
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> didn't hit dd on that line :)
<tonyyarusso> By "doc wiki" and "main wiki" I assume we mean w.u.c and h.u.c respectively?  (reading CC minutes)
<nixternal> correct
<tonyyarusso> Superscript wiki markup?
<coreyt> Weird default on xchat starting the first time.. had the member list collapsed :) thought I was the only one here.
<coreyt> Hello I'm interested in helping write video tutorials for Ubuntu.  Which app combo works best to produce them in a .swf format for Edgy  Looking for user experiences rather than the few lists I came across.
<nixternal> coreyt: popey would be the best person to talk to, but i am guessing he is probably asleep at this time (UK i believe)
<nixternal> tonyyarusso: 5^^th^^ i believe
<coreyt> thanks, and yeah it's really late there.
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: Funny, that's totally what I did.
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> 5^th^
<nixternal> it is just one it seems
<coreyt> I've got the  Jan 2007 issue of Linux Journal that talks about various ways to do it.  Just upgraded from Dapper to Edgy and am still redoing things I had done to dapper.
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: ah
<nixternal> ya, i have never had much luck with screencasting personally
<coreyt> From what I was able to read it sounds like having a fast machine might be required.
<coreyt> I've been toying around with taking some of the tips I have gathered for everyday tasks on my ubuntutips site and doing them in video and then I saw this project on digg.
<coreyt> Only problem was it's probably bandwidth intensive :)
<coreyt> Anywho it's late for me here too so I'm gonna hit the sack and look up this popey person in the AM.  Getting iced in at the house as we speak and me and the wife both can work from home.
<coreyt> Just hope she does not want to use my Linux box for VPN.  Her mac gives her trouble sometimes lol.  Seems the Ubuntu VNC client is more compatible than the crap M$ wrote for the mac.
<coreyt> l8r
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: not on the wiki team, I'll look it up a tomorrow, a bit tired today. going to bed soon now i think
<nixternal> Burgundavia or Madpilot, if you have some time, would it be possible to add freddymartinez9 (aka Admiral_Chicago) to the Wiki Team? he knows his way around the wiki and understands a majority of the tags
<Burgundavia> just got an email from him
<Burgundavia> will do right now
<nixternal> cool Burgundavia, didn't know your status as you have been in and out this evening
<Burgundavia> wireless connections issues and crashing irc clients
<Admiral_Chicago> :)
<nixternal> plus if he messes anything up i can handle him personally :)
* Admiral_Chicago hides from nixternal in -chicago
<nixternal> i trust him enough though to edit the ubuntu-chicago site
<mdke> nixternal: using html is cheating!
<mdke> nixternal: ah, you changed back, that's better! :)
<nixternal> mdke: hehe ya, i cheated, and then said the hell with it and went back to xml :) thanks for the typo fixes as well
<nixternal> wo0t. Riddell uploaded the kubuntu-docs package, so now hopefully people will bug report some issues instead of waiting until release :)
* nixternal notes to self, careful on committing first thing in the morning when the spelling is not there yet
<TomHoward> hello
<coreyt> Hi, I run Ubuntutips.org and was wanting to help as part of the video documentation/how-to team.  I've got a setup that can make and upload videos quickly and I write MOP's/documentation at work as well.
<coreyt> brb fixing  sandwich
<nixternal> mmm, sammich
<nixternal> coreyt: popey is the person you would want to talk to, and once he gets around he will notice the highlight of his name and say hello im sure :)
<popey> ahh, just the person
<popey> hello coreyt
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> told ya
<popey> coreyt: can you write up how you make your screencats?
<popey> coreyt: is there a problem with ubuntutips.org? looks like www. doesn't resolve which may be why there is no stylesheet
<mdke> coreyt: yes, we'd like you to help out as part of the docteam. if you need any help with how to get involved, see the link in the topic
<coreyt> sorry
<coreyt> big sandwich
<coreyt> popey I have not made a screencast yet.  There's some windows tools I used to use for videogames, for Linux I have a bunch of suggestions from publications and such.
<mdke> coreyt: you should look at the screencast team guide, there is a specific methodology used: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts
<coreyt> Someone said the www in ubuntutips.org does not resolve?
<mdke> that's correct
<coreyt> Strange
<nixternal> works for me
<coreyt> What DNS server?
<nixternal> comcast
<nixternal> my lord the dcc attacks today are crazy
<coreyt> no for the one that did not work
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> works here now, didn't earlier
<mdke> coreyt: was there a specific reason you decided to front your own website rather than contributing directly to the community Ubuntu wiki? I'd like to know
<coreyt> I wonder if some dns servers have my old ip cached until someone accesses the website and then it refreshes out.
<coreyt> No specific reason, I like to build servers and play around with them.   It's in no way saying that I dont like the ubuntu documentation
<coreyt> Though anytime I have come across a problem if I google it, I usually find it on a blog.
<mdke> that's a shame
<coreyt> I'm a top 10 return for the search "Ubuntu Tips", none of the top 10 returns go to the documenatation I think
<coreyt> I could help fix that.
<mdke> by adding the word "tips"? :p
<coreyt> Strangely enough that did not work for me.
<coreyt> I used to be somewhere around 40something
<mdke> I mean, naturally "ubuntu tips" wouldn't drag up the documentation site, because the word "tips" doesn't appear
<coreyt> How about the top 10 problems someone searches for a way to fix it.
<coreyt> Naturally that'd be a weird meta tag
* mdke boggles
<mdke> "ubuntu help" and "ubuntu documentation" do the trick
<coreyt> Yep, what about Ubuntu Graphics, or Ubuntu screen resolution, ubuntu network?
<mdke> dunno
<coreyt> let me check something
<coreyt> What's ubuntuguide.org relation to anything other than a very long list in a wiki?
<mpt> Put synonyms for each problem *on the actual page that solves the problem*
<coreyt> I feel bad for any dialup users there :)
<mpt> Please not a big list of keywords on the front page :-)
<coreyt> no
<LaserJock> coreyt: it's a family of guides done by various people. not related to the doc team at all, that I'm aware of
<coreyt> It's a Wiki and google will crawl it, however keywords for each subject will help rankings.
<coreyt> here's a search that's working for you guys
<coreyt> Ubuntu Nvidia https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia
<coreyt> brings that page in a top 10 result
<coreyt> I need to find my google hacks book lol
<coreyt> looks like I'll have to mirror apt to speed up screencasts
<LaserJock> except it's going to the wrong wiki ;-)
<coreyt> hrm
<coreyt> ugh
<coreyt> So what's the big difference between the wiki and help?
<mdke> coreyt: wiki.ubuntu.com is a wiki for Ubuntu contributors to manage teams and exchange ideas about development. help.ubuntu.com/community is a wiki which provides help for users
<popey> coreyt: i improve apt by downloading packages first
<popey> apt-get -d foo
<coreyt> I'm wondering if recording works inside a vmware image, gives a good controlled enviroment to build these.
<popey> I record using qemu
<coreyt> I've got the horsepower to drive it.
<popey> the recording is done by the host, recording the window that qemu runs in
<popey> could do the same with vmware
<popey> coreyt: have you seen the guide? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts ?
<coreyt> we'll the vmware player image for edgy is pretty standard.
<coreyt> yeah I'm browsing it on and off
<popey> One of my overriding goals was to create these screencasts using free tools.
<popey> others of course use closed stuff like vmware and camtasia, I choose not to
<coreyt> I've used Qemu a little for a usb key distro for system recovery but that's all.
<coreyt> been awhile since I built that though
<popey> I feel that we should eat our own dogfood
<coreyt> Only reason I suggested the vmware player ubuntu image is it's the most readily available thing out there for someone who has never done any VM stuff.
<popey> qemu can run a vmware image :)
<coreyt> lol
<coreyt> wait, it can start up a vmware player image?
<popey> yes
<coreyt> pfft
<coreyt> Still command line?
<popey> install qemu-launcher
<popey> it's a gui for qemu
<coreyt> bah
<popey> and there are others in development, some real nice onces
<coreyt> cool I have to check this out.
<popey> that url I threw you has a screenshot of qemu-launcher
<popey> personally I use the command line, but I appreciate others like GUIs, I am not bigoted that way :)
<coreyt> what repo has qemu-launcher?
<coreyt> I'm not finding it.
<popey> universe in feisty
<coreyt> works on edgy though?
<popey> hmm
<popey> should do, but it looks like its only in feisty
<coreyt> I can do command line
<popey> well, if you need any help with qemu, give me a shout, I have used it quite a bit
<coreyt> I'll track down the source and see if it builds for Dapper/Edgy
<popey> do you have a VT enabled CPU?
<popey> qemu is packaged
<coreyt> AMD X2
<popey> does that do VT?
<popey> if so, go get kvm, it does xen-style virtualisation for qemu
<coreyt> pretty sure it does
<popey> makes qemu blindingly fast
<popey> http://kvm.sf.net
<coreyt> sec
<coreyt> ah on AMD it's called SVM
<coreyt> so yeah I have VT capabilities
<mdke> mpt: so what do you think, should we hammer out a decent spec for the help menu? Seems like there is a good case for it to become a button now that there are no other submenus in the "System" menu
<mpt> mdke, there are no other submenus? How did that happen?
<mpt> Is that from gnome-control-center?
<mpt> But sure, that would be great, and the spec should use the word "richer" at least twice
<mdke> mpt: yes, gnome-control-center rules them all
<mdke> also the quit dialogue doesn't have a menu
<mdke> mpt: can we just take https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsableHelpMenu and change the name?
<mdke> and add stuff
<mpt> sure
<jrib> hi is anyone involved with the restructuring of RestrictedFormats?
<mdke> jrib: I think the community just kinda takes care of it. Anything particular you have in mind?
<jrib> well it has recently changed a lot, and I was going to fix a mistake and keep finding them
<mdke> have a look in the history
<mdke> see if you can find the culprit, then accost him/her
<mdke>  /it
<jrib> I think I see what is happening.  An effort is being made to break everything up into subpages, but links are being left broken and sometimes you see things like "see below" but it is no longer there.  I'll fix up what I see
<jrib> That page was a bit of a monstrosity though, I praise the person who took up the task to begin with :)
<tonyyarusso> which?
<jrib> restricted
<jrib> tonyyarusso: I just noticed how it has been reorganized
<tonyyarusso> ah
<tonyyarusso> yeah, that's nice
<mdke> jrib: thanks for helping
* tonyyarusso misread
<tonyyarusso> bah
<tonyyarusso> Sorry, that got channel misdirected...
* jrib reboots tonyyarusso 
<mdke> mpt: can you think of a better name for the spec?
<nixternal> UbuntuHelpTheRightWay :)
<mpt> UbuntuHelpAndSupportAccess
<willvdl> nixternal, I saw in LP one of those "help-me-to-distribute-CDs-I'm-a-new-user-and-love-ubuntu" product pages
<nixternal> hahaha
<willvdl> folks I need to ask a really silly and probably inane question
<mpt> There are no silly questions, only silly people
<mpt> wait
<nixternal> i do it all the time, so go for it :)
<mpt> that's not how the saying goes
<nixternal> mpt: i am both
<willvdl> why are the release-notes maintained in the SVN repo?
<nixternal> willvdl: that's silly
<nixternal> ;p
<willvdl> I warned you, but you wouldn't listen
<nixternal> all documentation is maintained in the SVN repo :)
<nixternal> hahaha
<willvdl> snot
<willvdl> seriously, where do they go once they're written?
<mdke> no it's not silly
<nixternal> iirc release-notes will become a part of the ubiquity slideshow, but i am still not 100% positive on that since nobody has said anything to us
<mdke> for Ubuntu we don't maintain the release notes in the svn repo
<mdke> the developers maintain them on the wiki, and then they are put onto the website, and into update-manager
<mdke> and the -announce mailing list
<willvdl> mdke, but there is a directory in trunk and project links in the doc-team wiki
<mdke> willvdl: there isn't a directory in trunk for Ubuntu that I can see
<mdke> as for the project page, it's a bit behind... like 12 months
<nixternal> there used to be for kubuntu, but i have recently removed thos
<willvdl> good point
<willvdl> nixternal, can you remove the edubuntu one?
<nixternal> i sure can
* willvdl deleting stuff, it's easier than creating stuff and you get more credit...even if it is *%$@&%#
* willvdl loves deleting rather
<LaserJock> hang on a sec
<nixternal> ya, those are actually recent
<willvdl> hmmm, so they are
<LaserJock> you're going to get rid of the Edubuntu release notes?
<willvdl> LaserJock, not exactly
<willvdl> just trying to figure out where they should be maintained
<LaserJock> depends on *who* is maintaining them ;-)
<nixternal> it looks as if it was Jerome maintaining htem in the past
<willvdl> LaserJock, spoke to jerome earlier
<willvdl> he agrees that they make no sense being in SVN
<LaserJock> well, jerome did work on them, lately I think ogra's just be writting them
<willvdl> ...in the wiki
<LaserJock> well, to me it does make sense to ship release notes in the documentation
<LaserJock> but maybe not :-)
<willvdl> well, philosophically speaking, one would read the release-notes before downloading or even installing the software
<LaserJock> sure, but they should also be available "on site"
<LaserJock> not that I read them ;-)
<willvdl> that's what about-*buntu is for?
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think so
<willvdl> LaserJock, one approach is to maintain/author on the wiki and then pop into svn before release
<mdke> willvdl: well, you can read the releasenotes after upgrading
<mdke> (see "What's new in Ubuntu 7.04")
<LaserJock> willvdl: well, I have no objections to it not being in SVN
<LaserJock> seems like noone else does
<willvdl> mdke, does that not duplicate the purpose of the About doc?
<LaserJock> About *buntu is about *buntu
<LaserJock> not the release
<mdke> willvdl: no :)
<willvdl> if it does stay in svn and gets packaged, where would one find it on the system?
<LaserJock> in the help system along with everything else I'd imagine
<willvdl> mdke, they tend to include "new" features etc as well. I find them very similar to the about pages
<coreyt> What wiki do we use here?  Mediawiki??  Or homegrown?
<willvdl> moin
<willvdl> nixternal has a point though, if they are used in ubiquity then it makes sense
<willvdl> live CD is perfect place for release notes I guess
<coreyt> ni!
<coreyt> It would be nice that documentation on the system could check if it's updated on a website and show the updated documentation.
<LaserJock> what?
<coreyt> thinking to myself :)
<willvdl> moin - xml converter :)
<LaserJock> coreyt: we ship updates
<LaserJock> if needed
<mdke> mpt: the about pages don't tend to include "new" features
<coreyt> So the ? button documentation gets updated via a package?
<LaserJock> coreyt: yeah
<mdke> mpt: sorry, meant for willvdl
<LaserJock> it gets there via a package
<mdke> mpt: this one is for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess#preview
<coreyt> I've never really went through it extensively
<mdke> mpt: note that I've copied your email wholly
<willvdl> mdke, your right. I've got my eyes tied up between beta announcements, knot releases, release notes etc.
<coreyt> * bangs head on desk * .  Took me forever to get mp3 support into SoundJuicer and it's right there in the help app.
<LaserJock> :-)
<willvdl> can anyone remember where matt revell was putting the LP help pages he was writing?
<mdke> help.launchpad.net
<willvdl> he had some specific links on LP usage for ubuntu...
<mdke> I don't think he's written those yet.
<mdke> just the material on help.l.n
<willvdl> https://help.launchpad.net/RecentChanges
<mpt> coreyt, it's our responsibility to get the help to a standard where you can trust that the things you actually want to do will be explained there
<dsas> Does the mac help menu get app specific help added to it too?
<mpt> coreyt, until then, many people will scour the Web instead
<mdke> willvdl: yes, you see it there, right?
<willvdl> yip. the links are hanging though, no parent
<LaserJock> dsas, how do you mean?
<mpt> dsas, no. That's my Mac it's a screenshot of, and I have bazillions of apps installed
<dsas> what's the point of a menu with one item?
<mdke> we should add a screenshot of the current help menu
<mdke> does anyone know how to do screenshots of menus?
<mpt> dsas, well, Jef Raskin would have said "make it a button instead!", but it's better to be consistent with other menus
<coreyt> How about a way to search for help in the help function that uses google to search for help on ubuntu's help sites rather than on blogs.
<coreyt> and a button to request help if they cannot find it.
<mpt> coreyt, that's already implemented, except that it uses Seek rather than Google
<coreyt> :0
* mdke points at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=yelp-search.jpg
<mpt> try it in Edgy
<dsas> mpt: Seems weird to me. I should read more about usability.
<mdke> mpt: btw I've marked mdz as approver, you think it should be mark?
<mpt> mdke, that can be up to mdz to decide, I think
* mdke nods
<coreyt> dont mind me I'm slow :)
<mdke> feel free to hack at the spec
<mdke> I've finished now
<willvdl> mpt, what are those "abc" bullet points that appear in the search results when using seek?
<mpt> willvdl, I think that was newz2000 experimenting with filling slots in the search results template
<mpt> it needs a lot of tidying up
<willvdl> Burgundavia, hey, didn't see you there
<Burgundavia> hey willvdl
<coreyt> mpt: so is there a way to pull the top seek's ?
<willvdl> been on vacation? when you get back?
<mpt> coreyt, I don't understand what you mean
<coreyt> okay if you hit seek-test and ask it for mythtv somewhere it records that someone asked for it.  So like on google where they produce those lists of how many times people asked for Jessica Simpson and whoever.
<coreyt> top 10 searches :)
<mpt> oh, right
<mpt> yes, that's definitely part of the plan
<mpt> but not implemented yet afaik
<mpt> nag newz2000 next time you see him :-)
<mpt> he's another member of the Matthew Cabal
<coreyt> Someone can do it with a small shell script, I have source somewhere that can pull the terms and list them by frequency.
<coreyt> *searches for Bash for Dummies*
<mpt> I'm good at bashing dummies
<coreyt> lol
<mdke> mpt: what do you think about petitioning to put a launchpad for help back on the panel, like the old days? it's a bit hidden in the system menu
<LaserJock> we already have a button don't we?
<mdke> nope
<mdke> it was removed back in breezy or so
<mdke> the reasoning was that the icon was a bit confusing
<LaserJock> no, but I mean Corey and I got it back for Feisty at least
<mdke> did you? it's not there on my system
<LaserJock> on a fresh install it should be
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/default.png
<LaserJock> Edgy maybe too, but I can't remembner
<mdke> lemme try making a new user now
<jenda> hey folks
<jenda> I'm writing up guidelines for designing marketing material.
<jenda> I expect them to be changed widely later on, but I'd like to hear the doc's suggestions.
<jenda> I've covered trademark and branding issues: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite/Guidelines
<LaserJock> I think it might have missed Edgy, but on Feisty it's there I'm pretty sure
<jenda> I'm thinking what to next
<jenda> Oh come on, did i kill the channel? :)
<mdke> LaserJock: ooh yeah!! Dunno how that slipped past me. Nice one!!
<LaserJock> ;-)
<mpt> mdke, long-term, I think it is confusing to have a mixture of buttons and menus on the same panel
* mdke muses
<mpt> mdke, so is the default.png you made not quite accurate?
<mdke> mpt: correct, I'll upload another one, if it isn't too late.
<mpt> sure
<mdke> jenda: looks ok. I'd make it a bit snappier, shorter paragraphs, more bullet points
<jenda> mdke: will work on that, thanks.
<jenda> mdke: it'll be a lot longer, too.
<jenda> I hope :)
* mdke boggles at the illogic of nautilus
<mdke> mpt: reuploaded
<mdke> discovered some comedy nautilus behaviour in the process too
<mdke> you can drag and drop a file from another user's home directory into your webhosting remote server, but you can't drag it to your desktop. Gotta love it
<willvdl> night all
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-16
<mpt> mdke, did you report a bug?
<tonyyarusso> Nautilus still has a selection bug from forever ago.
<mpt> thanks mdke
<mdke> mpt: not yet because I assume that they have loads of bugs on this, in fact I vaguely remember seeing one. I've asked in #nautilus
* mdke updates DocumentationTeam/Projects for Ubuntu and Generic, hands over to nixternal 
<nixternal> uh oh
<nixternal> right as i come back online :)
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> I think I've only reported 1 real bug in my lifetime :/
<mdke> LaserJock: it's all about reporting bugs on Launchpad
<mdke> vast majority of the bugs I've reported recently have been on Launchpad
<dsas> I think I filed 5 bugs on LP this week
* mdke checks to ensure this is true
<LaserJock> I guess
<nixternal> i have filed plenty, and have plenty more to go :)
<dsas> probably not, but it feels like it.
<LaserJock> although I've gotten a bit cynical WRT to LP
<mpt> mdke, "on", or "about"? :-)
<mdke> mpt: the latter. But i exaggerated
* mdke needs a spellchecker for irc
<mdke> i can never spell exaggerate
<mdke> LaserJock: cynical how?
<mdke> AHA!
<mdke> I filed the bastard myself nearly a year ago
<mdke> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/39482
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39482 in nautilus "nautilus tries to move when dragging and dropping from read-only folders, instead of copying" [Medium,Confirmed] 
<LaserJock> mdke: well, anything I'm intrested is always a "corner case" or it'll be "real soon"
<LaserJock> I know they work hard
<LaserJock> but it seems like not on anything I'm interested in
<mdke> LaserJock: do what I do and file trivial bugs on the language in the dialogues
<LaserJock> well, I couldn't care less about dialogues though ;j-)
<LaserJock> ;-) rather
<dsas> hmm, I guess it was just 3. and one was a dupe.
<mdke> yeah, was joking
<LaserJock> I'd rather have it useful for me
* dsas filed one of those :p
<LaserJock> instead I have to go write my own scripts
<nixternal> mdke: gahaha! sweet blog post
<mdke> yeah, it's funny that :)
<mdke> I've been meaning to blog it since I read it
<nixternal> the last analogy is classic
<mdke> yeah, you laugh when rereading it even though you know what it's going to say
<mdke> someone thought they'd do their creative writing class and math class at the same time
<nixternal> hahahaha
<nixternal> man, i used to hate those questions in elementary school
<crimsun> how does the editor not get the third one? :)
<crimsun> it's the personification that's utterly off
<mdke> crimsun: it's not clear, but I added the parentheses as a joke
<crimsun> hailstones are inanimate objects; they can't "leap"
<mdke> sure they can!
<crimsun> they can bounce :)
<nixternal> lol
<crimsun> that would have utterly flunked my old creative writing class.
<mdke> LaserJock: that's a shame. I think that LP get so many bugs that even though they do good triage and confirm/reject them quickly, they don't get fixed very quickly. Lots of very early bugs are still open
<nixternal> crimsun: but hailstones can make you leap :)
<LaserJock> mdke: it's the nature of the beast. I think they are working on making it user-ready and not developer-ready. Which makes sense
* mdke muses
<LaserJock> it's just irritating to have to spend hours writing scripts for LP-workarounds
<mdke> LaserJock: you should put together a mail for matthewrevell
<mdke> give him some feedback
<LaserJock> perhaps
<mdke> that's what he's there fore
<LaserJock> not sure if he can do much about it. They seem to be working their butts off as it is
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> but maybe I'm just in a particularly cynical mood today ;-)
<mdke> cynic!
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I found last night that using a CLI browser helped a little
<LaserJock> ok, well now you've motivated me
<LaserJock> I *have* to file a LP bug by the end of the day
* nixternal updates DocumentationTeam/Projects for Kubuntu and hands over to <fill in the blank>
<crimsun> sweet, so you're taking over alsa afteward?
<crimsun> afterward, even
<nixternal> sure, i think i can do a lot of not-so-good to the package :)
<crimsun> rocking, join the ubuntu-audio team :)
<crimsun> (and by package, you meant all audio bugs, I'm sure :)
<crimsun> if only it were just one
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I think I'd rather carve my eye out with a spoon
<crimsun> been there, done that.
<LaserJock> hmm, but then I work with lasers :/
<LaserJock> so either way, eyes are in danger
<mdke> wow, that's james bond stuff
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> crimsun: the only good thing i can do on the ubuntu-audio team is play music :)
<coreyt> lol
<coreyt> I'd just love to see a hassle free way to encode dvd's to ipod format and even use my ipod.
<coreyt> So who has access to the access logs to the seek server ?
<mdke> hi MagicFab
<mdke> ok, so point 1
<LaserJock> seek server?
<mdke> we can certainly encourage translators to localise any links rather than simply translating blindly
<coreyt> yeah the search function in the help applet on Ubuntu.
<mdke> MagicFab: does that address point 1 or is it more subtle again?
<coreyt> need to grep the logs for https://seek-test.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=
<MagicFab> mdke, what I mean is... if you have installed Ubuntu in spanish, you should get
<MagicFab> spanish-countried marketplace choices, spanish forums, IRC, docs, etc.
<mdke> ok, there are two points mixed together there
<mdke> first is that the mockup doesn't envisage linking to marketplace/forums/IRC/docs etc
<MagicFab> just like the "language tool" does a nice job of putting together all language-related packages in a few steps, the help & support tools should do that taking into account language/ geo location
<mdke> which is your 2 and 3rd points, I think
<mdke> the second part to it is the translation bit.
<mdke> MagicFab: well, yelp is translated. We can encourage the translators to localise links that we put into the help center
<MagicFab> support trackers are a bit different
<LaserJock> coreyt: I don't know if that's for our shipped help or not. it looks like it's just for online help
<mdke> MagicFab: let's just clear up the translation point first
<MagicFab> mdke, localizing the links won't be except every release, right ?
<coreyt> that's what seems to be searched in Edgy's help function if that's what you're asking.
<mdke> MagicFab: what do you mean?
<MagicFab> If links are localized, let's say for Edgy. And some of them change in between... no pudates will occur before feisty, right ?
<coreyt> I wanted the results to build a script that can scan the logs and produce most searched terms in order from highest to lowest in a place people can read.  Then we can start seeing if we have any help for those subjects.
<mdke> MagicFab: that's correct. You're probably familiar with the criterior for updating packages in stable releases
<mdke> MagicFab: are you saying that causes a difficulty?
<MagicFab> exactly. So for example the Canadian team just was confirmed officially. Shouldn't *ALL* ubuntu releases get an update in their help system about this ?
<mdke> why?
<MagicFab> Since we can't do that in yelp, I think it only makes sense this is managed by web
<mdke> hang on a second. What's the added relevance of the Canadian team being confirmed officially?
<MagicFab> mdke, If I installed Ubuntu with "English- Canada", I want to see the Canadian team in my free support options ASAP...
<coreyt> lol
<MagicFab> it's another support level (**official** locoteams)
<mdke> I'm not sure it is, tbh
<coreyt> Canadians use Linux eh?  ;0)
<mdke> there is no requirement that a team needs to be "official" before providing support
<MagicFab> mdke, I am proposing that, actually :)
<mdke> MagicFab: well that's crazy, in my opinion. At least stated like that without any degree of qualification
<mdke> but putting that aside, it's not the current position
<LaserJock> coreyt: ask mdke but I really don't think that's use for Edgy's help
<MagicFab> mdke, then the locoteams shouldn't be listed from www.ubuntu.com/support
<mdke> MagicFab: why not?
<MagicFab> u just said it's crazy! lots of locoteams linked from there are not even official. I am just saying it 's a bug resource difficult to find for non-english users.
<mdke> there's no degree of "officialising" or quality control for any of the other community support resources
<mdke> I don't see why "unofficial" locoteams can't provide support too
<mdke> anyway, we've got totally sidetracked, let's bring it back
<MagicFab> mdke, just like IRC or the mailing lists, we can push for a special category of Ubuntu members that would be support resources in their own loco/IRC channel/mailing list/LP team, etc.
<MagicFab> mkde, I repeat that's my point. I want the community to have tools to be recognized as valid support providers, to a degree (--> community)
<mdke> MagicFab: what do you mean "just like IRC or the mailing lists"? There is nothing like that happening to my knowledge in irc or mailing lists
<MagicFab> I *KNOW* nothing like that is happening, that is what I *propose*...
<mdke> MagicFab: I am extremely confused as to the point you're making :( It seems to be two opposites at once
<mdke> can we get back on topic?
<dsas> and the forums? That's an insane amount of people to be de-legitimising
* mdke nods at dsas 
<MagicFab> ?
<MagicFab> did I mention delegit ?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> MagicFab: the problem is possibly that we are misunderstanding each other
<mdke> let's forget it, and talk about the spec please
<dsas> Sorry..
<mdke> MagicFab: (maybe if you put your thoughts on this point in an email it will be clearer)
<LaserJock> grrr, why did printer sharing get screwed up in Edgy :(
<MagicFab> I am only talking about the spec... help & support... mentoring people to provide better support, linking directly to them, filtering/detecting support requests and routing them appropriately.
<coreyt> What's wrong with it?
<mdke> MagicFab: that spec is exclusively about how the help system is presented in the Ubuntu System menu, at the moment.
<coreyt> MagicFab, I think there's a website that does what you just said.
<mdke> MagicFab: so, your other points
<mdke> you mention the support tracker
<MagicFab> coreyt, would love to see it. We get lots of "I need free support" from end-users (we= Canonical Global Support Services) . They can't find the free support.
<MagicFab> mdke, I recently noticed support trackers can be linked to directly by teams
<mdke> that's only one of multiple types of free community support provided, we can't include one without including the other. That's why at the moment we have a single link to "Support" because it can act as a springboard for the user to find different types of support
<coreyt> MagicFab, I'll try to find it, it was well thought out and was for Linux users in mind.  Saw it on digg once but their search sucks.
<coreyt> *googles*
<mdke> MagicFab: do you understand my point?
<MagicFab> mdke, yes, but we can go further than that.
<mdke> MagicFab: bear in mind that the help front page has limited space
<MagicFab> mdke, the spec is 300% right on having a single link for help & support
<MagicFab> the help front page could have one or two fields to ask for country / language
<MagicFab> and based onthat *only* present appropriate links
<mdke> ???
<mdke> the ubuntu installer already does that
<mdke> the user is going to get pretty pissed off if we ask him twice what his language is
<MagicFab> mdke, but it's permanent or at least session-based.
<MagicFab> mdke, who said every time.. [ ]  Remember these settings
<coreyt> en.help.ubuntu.com de.help.ubuntu.com fr.help.ubuntu.com  save yourself the trouble of a dropdown.
<mdke> when you say "only present appropriate links", what do you mean?
<MagicFab> coreyt, in fact, link to those too...
<MagicFab> mdke: "Appropriate links" would mean presenting 2 headings:
<MagicFab> 1. Commercial Support -> Marketplace, affiliates, partners, canonical, etc
<MagicFab> 2. Community support -> IRC, mailing lists, forums, online docs, locoteams support trackes/sites, etc.
<MagicFab> and why ask language / country ? Because I have friends & family & colleagues all over the place.
<mdke> I'm afraid I don't buy adding another language dialogue to the help center
<mdke> it should use the user's locale like every other single program
<mdke> but the other aspect of your suggestion is definitely interesting
<MagicFab> mdke, of cours it uses the user locale! but it can also propose to seek for ther languages support.
<mdke> to me, it boils down to expanding what in the mockup is currently "get free or commercial technical support online"
<mdke> MagicFab: it can, but shouldn't
<MagicFab> Why should I need to install a full japanese locale just to help a friend find Ubuntu support in japanese ?
<dsas> You could just tell them to open up the help menu and click the link.
<mdke> MagicFab: if the friend is looking for support, it's likely that they have an Ubuntu system
<MagicFab> replace japanese with french/english/spanish - I go through that a lot everyday.
<mdke> that's a real corner use case
<MagicFab> mdke, most new converts I've known seek the information before installing that
<mdke> the help system isn't for providing help to third parties, it's for providing help for users of the system
<mdke> MagicFab: well that's what the website is for, dude
<MagicFab> mdke, don't dude me ;)
<mdke> sorry, it's 1am
<MagicFab> website IMO should also provide those two filters (language/location)
<mdke> that's a wholly different spec
<mdke> so, leaving the language point for now...
<MagicFab> and your corner use case is something I face most everyday.
<mdke> your proposal is to expand the section called "Can't find the answer" and localise it
<mdke> right?
<MagicFab> mdke, I didn't say that - not sure where that section is
<mdke> please tell me you looked at the mockup
<MagicFab> looking at the screenshot, yes I did see that
<mdke> phew
<MagicFab> I didn't memorize all of it ;)
<mdke> that's ok
<mdke> I cheated by having it open at the same time
<MagicFab> really, I am just enthusiastic about this :)
<mdke> that's good
<MagicFab> Let's say the first time (and as an option) you used yelp you were asked : Country / Language (already filled as per your locale)
<mdke> so, as for your point on synchronisation; naturally we can update the package for each release, depending on whether the available support resources change
<MagicFab> and you could always filter exsiting support options by that. That's my dream scenario.
<MagicFab> mdke: can't we use some sort of resource file that this always refer to so we don have to wait for release cycles ?
<MagicFab> offline users would have it from the CD, online users from an online resource (!= webpage)
<mdke> MagicFab: I would envisage that the available support resources is only likely to change extremely rarely, certianly ont as often as every release cycle
<mdke> forum, irc, support tracker (free); marketplace, partners, canonical (commercial)
<mdke> the translators will keep on top of the localisations of those
<MagicFab> In particular it's not the addition of resource but their deletions that I want to have instantly. If any resource disappears, i want it to be reflected rapidly
<mdke> MagicFab: do resources get deleted?
<mdke> if I ran a support resource, I'd make damn sure that it didn't close without a redirection or explanation page
<MagicFab> well, yes, they will soon. A major cleanup of the marketplace will take place short-term. And affiliates/partners have to renew every year.
<tonyyarusso> lol...maybe I need to make my profanity hilights #ubuntu-specific
<MagicFab> mdke, that's you :)
<mdke> MagicFab: we are not going to link to individual commercial companies in the help center
<MagicFab> mdke, they'll be only 2 links from there: marketplace -> company.
<mdke> MagicFab: there might (just possibly) be a link to the marketplace page, but we can't go any deeper than that
<mdke> the marketplace page won't change, because the Ubuntu webmaster knows the importance of not making urls disappear overnight
<mdke> so any changes to the page itself will be fine
* mdke hopes he is making sense at this time of night
<MagicFab> mdke, perhaps then when the marketplace is a database / automated we can say you're right. But it's not going to be at least for the next year.
<mdke> MagicFab: are you saying the url is going to change without a redirection being put in place?
<mdke> it's going to stop being http://www.ubuntu.com/support/marketplace ?
<MagicFab> not the marketplace URL but the companies in it.
<MagicFab> and countries will appear / disappear based on companies
<mdke> yes, but to repeat myself again, they won't be in the help center so it doesn't matter
<MagicFab> help center -> country choice -> marketplace section "Canada" needs to be available offline, so yes they will matter
<mdke> MagicFab: "needs" is a matter of opinion. I say it doesn't
<mdke> in fact, I'm not convinced that we should necessarily have links to individual support resources in the help center. It's probably better to link to http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid and http://www.ubuntu.com/support/free
<mdke> simply because there isn't enough space in the help center to properly explain the choices of resource that people have
<mdke> those pages do a much better job
<MagicFab> mdke, if you're offline, then you have 0 support.
<mdke> MagicFab: that's correct.
<MagicFab> that's why I said both need to be sync'ed (yelp & website)
<mdke> that's a very wishlist feature, we are not going to get into that for this release
<mdke> no chance at all
<mdke> we can only ship the docs, and provide links to online support resources.
<MagicFab> mdke, why not
<MagicFab> time / resources constraints ?
<mdke> it needs serious planning
<mdke> no community resources offer offline support, or nearly none
<mdke> only the commercial ones
<MagicFab> offline support = marketplace, for which we have all phone no.s.
<mdke> right, that's commercial
<mdke> and it runs into the synching problems you identified
<MagicFab> well, one number we can assume will always work is ours - not even that is goig to be listed as per the current spec.
<mdke> you could print it on the default desktop background...
<MagicFab> I want as many options for anyone trying U. for the first time and hitting that 'help' button includin "here, try calling all these, or us directly, if you're in Canada".
<MagicFab> and I want those same options accessible later on too when considering more support or passing the info to others.
<mdke> ok. The idea is clear. It makes me slightly uncomfortable because I don't think the operating system should really be used for promoting commercial activities, I feel the website is ideal for that, but I suppose that line has already been crossed to a certain extent
<mdke> I think the implementation is very complex
<mdke> and I wouldn't consider it to be part of the target for Feisty
<mdke> but you never know
<Burgundavia> the problem with having the OS telling people whom to call is that the data would get out of date very quickly
<mdke> MagicFab mentioned that point
<MagicFab> Burgundavia, only if you're not online.
<mdke> if you're not online, you don't need it on the system anyway
<MagicFab> In that case you have other bigger concerns like security updates
<Burgundavia> yes. but still, I also share mdke's concern about the commercial
<MagicFab> mdke, yes you do, sometime to , well, get online :)
<mdke> MagicFab: well, it's reasonable to expect you to do so to visit the website :p
<mdke> tbh, it's one think to include a link to commercial activities, and another to include the details in the system
<mdke> thing*
<MagicFab> Burgundavia, right now we have System > Help > Commercial support. What's worse in what I propose ??
<Burgundavia> I hate the help "menu"
<mdke> but it's definitely worth discussing further
<Burgundavia> it needs to go away
<mdke> MagicFab: perhaps you can tidy up these thoughts a bit on the wiki page. Essentially there are three aspects: 1. localisation, 2. more detail in the types of extra support, and 3. offline commercial support details. 1 is definitely already on the todo list, 2 and 3 we can consider; but I don't want implemention problems with 3 to get in the way of the spec being completed for feisty
<mdke> MagicFab: you clearly have lots of ideas for providing good support and I don't doubt your motives in the slightest. It may be worthwhile compiling a more ambitious/substantial spec for Feisty+1
<MagicFab> mdke, yes, it's actually very kind of you to confront some of the ideas so I could validate/think about their relevance.
<mdke> sometimes it pays to move in small steps
<MagicFab> mdke, I know it seems big, but I see more problems in delegating / trusting the reanslators to update/localize info like URLs
<MagicFab> mdke, I'll try to do a mockup too
<mdke> MagicFab: well, at least from the point of view of free resources, there is no alternative
<mdke> maybe for the commercial links we will make them non-localisable for now
* mdke is a fan of moving in small steps
* MagicFab too
<mdke> I don't have a problem with allowing translation teams to insert urls to their websites
<mdke> we do it already
<mdke> and we trust them with the rest of the OS :)
<MagicFab> I also think nothing stop us from planning the bigger future steps now - and even implementing some if we seeopportunity/resources
<mdke> MagicFab: yes, I agree. However, doing so in a separate spec for the more ambitious plans is desirable because (a) it won't prevent implementation of the existing spec, and (b) it can have much more significant further discussion
<MagicFab> none of the info is in any standard format or database that could be used easily right now. So that needs to be addressed first.
<MagicFab> Well, unless you consider wiki-tables of any use...
<mdke> we can discuss all the issues, moral, social, technical
<mdke> MagicFab: see if you can structure those ideas (preferably in the 1, 2, 3 format I summarised them above) on the wiki page or in an email, and we'll go from there.
<MagicFab> I hate endless discs. ;) but yeah, open discussion is good. I'll keep an eye and work on it as much as I can.
<MagicFab> yes, will do
<mdke> endless discs?
<mdke> we only just started
* mdke considers going to bed, given that it's 1.30 am on his "early night"
<MagicFab> oh, not today.... this was actually short and to the point ;)
<MagicFab> mdke, considering I said "I can give you 5" and I have to go pee since 1hr. and eat too... :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> good night, and good toilet break
<MagicFab> same to you
<coreyt> MagicFab, I found it
<coreyt> http://alpha.qunu.com/index.html
<coreyt> That's a help matching system.
<Burgundavia> coreyt: I am sorry to tell you are going to need to change your name
<Burgundavia> there is only one room for one Corey here
<coreyt> bah!
<mpt> coreyt, like I said, the guy with the search logs is Matt Nuzum, aka newz2000
<coreyt> yeah I went up and saw that.
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: haha, but you don't even have Corey anywhere in your nick ;-)
<MagicFab> coreyt, great.
<coreyt> that qunu help thingy is pretty slick.  It looks like it never really caught on though.
<MagicFab> perhaps the awwwful colors ? Brown rules
<coreyt> lol
<tonyyarusso> coreyt: I signed up, never got a question.
<MagicFab> "linux" returns exactly two experts
<coreyt> brown aint delivering my CCNP 3.0 books today lol...
<coreyt> one of them is probably in this forum ^^^
<coreyt> I like the concept of the site though.  People sign up to help people, they do help others, and the helped people rate them.
<TheRealCorey> LaserJock: there
<coreyt> lol
<LaserJock> hmm, will the real Corey please stand up?
* mpt knew it was only seconds until an Eminem reference
<LaserJock> I know, I know
<LaserJock> shameless
<TheRealCorey> bloody americans, filling the world with their bloody music :D
<LaserJock> heh, much of our music is from Canadians ;-)
<coreyt> We tried to throw back Ciline Deion ;)
<dsas> did you get rid of Bryan Adams yet?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> but he has stopped producing music
<coreyt> Anyone know if KVM requires me to rebuild my kernel?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> but it is only in .20, which is in feisty
<coreyt> bah thought I left that behind with Gentoo
<coreyt> so cant use that until probably June
<dsas> coreyt: April
<coreyt> That's not so far
<Burgundavia> 20 has some major issues, due to KVM
<coreyt> working on my CCIP/CCIE(SP) so time should fly
<coreyt> I hate certs
<LaserJock> hmm, I've never done one
<coreyt> Ever notice how these people who do screenshot tours of every new distro just take the same pictures over and over again.
<coreyt> Do we have any screencasts yet?
<LaserJock> coreyt: I'm pretty sure
<coreyt> Not that I care, but I just realized that those of us in the US might want to watch out what we publish in terms of things like libdvdcss.  Stupid copyright laws.  It's one thing to put them on a wiki somewhere.  It may be another where were publishign screencasts proving we did it.
<LaserJock> heh, well I don't think I use any of that anyway
<tonyyarusso> Just have a European publish it for you ;)
<nixternal> LaserJock: at least the US had good white rappers (if there was such a thing), and what did Canada have? oh ya, Snow, Informer, you know samblamy ala flam, day licky da boom boom deeeeown
<nixternal> argh, Burgundavia wasn't even around for that one
<nixternal> QUOTE>LaserJock: at least the US had good white rappers (if there was such a thing), and what did Canada have? oh ya, Snow, Informer, you know samblamy ala flam, day licky da boom boom deeeeown
<LaserJock> oh geeze
<nixternal> man, the spice test video on youtube kills me
<popey> 01:47 < coreyt> Anyone know if KVM requires me to rebuild my kernel?
<popey> 01:48 < Burgundavia> yes
<popey> 01:48 < Burgundavia> but it is only in .20, which is in feisty
<popey> no
<popey> you can build the module standalone
<popey> bum, not here
<Ubugtu> New bug: #64245 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu Desktop Guide - Video/Kino Using Ubuntu Menu Structure" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/64245
<Ubugtu> New bug: #66781 in kubuntu-docs (main) "[EDGY]  Wrong versions reported in release notes" [Low,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/66781
<LaserJock> go nixternal go!
<nixternal> muhehe
<nixternal> those aren't new boogs, i just fix released um
<LaserJock> nixternal: those are best kinds of bug emails to get ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> .win 12
* mdke coughs
<nixternal> hehe
<mpt> mdke, what could be improved in the HelpAndSupportAccess spec?
<mpt> It seems like maybe I need to clarify more what it's *not* about
<mdke> mpt: I think you did that quite well. Thanks for the rewrite
<mpt> well, Will Simpson misread it, anyway
<mpt> so I'll tweak it a bit more
<mdke> he understood that a separate help menu was planned, but otherwise seemed to understand fairly well
<mdke> somerville32: are you still using the administration privileges on ~ubuntu-screencasts?
<somerville32> mdke: Yup.
<popey> heh
<mdke> i see
<mdke> somerville32: and... any indication of how long you're going to be using it?
<somerville32> When the artist is finished, I'll upload it. However, I wouldn't mind retaining it.
<mdke> somerville32: there's an artist?
<mdke> somerville32: as for retaining, we need to be consistent about who's administering the team because it is the way we differentiate who can review and upload videos. I'll be giving up mine too when the right moment comes
<mdke> somerville32: so if you submit a few videos and they pass popey's stringent quality control mechanisms, then I'm sure you'll be considered
<LaserJock> how long are the videos, in general?
<popey> 5, 10, 15 mins
<popey> depending on the complexity of the subject matter
<popey> 5 mins for a basic tutorial
<popey> 10 mins for something a bit more in depth
<popey> 15 mins for a comprehensive tutorial
<LaserJock> cool
* LaserJock doesn't want to do a"
<popey> human attention span not being fantastic
<LaserJock> "How to package for Ubuntu" video
<popey> heh
<mdke> that would be a 5 min job
<LaserJock> my irc tutorials run ~2hr
<popey> "How to write a modular kernel"
<popey> do you write an ircd in that 2 hours?
<LaserJock> irc tutorial of "How to package for Ubuntu"
<popey> ahh
<popey> :)
<LaserJock> not tutorial on irc
<LaserJock> ;-)
<popey> was going to say
<popey> I'd be in a coma before the first hour was up :)
* nixternal could picture a "How to package for Ubuntu" video, released in a 6 Disc DVD package :)
<mdke> heh
<nixternal> tomorrw i shall wait for the mailman and then sick the dogs after him
<nixternal> tomorrow as well
<mdke> nixternal: what did he do wrong?
* popey has a set of 10 DVDs that he has not got around to watching yet
<nixternal> he put in wet packages, which when it is below freezing
<popey> "Bill Gates deposition to the DoJ"
<popey> not sure I have the stamina
<nixternal> damaged my brand new python book
<nixternal> and i had to pry the mailbox door open with a screw driver
<LaserJock> man, I watched season 2 of 24 at Christmas
<LaserJock> 7 DVDs
<popey> :)
<popey> I want to start again with 24
<LaserJock> what a blast
<nixternal> not a good thing to do in a gated community. if people didn't know who i was, they would have called the police
<mdke> nixternal: your dogs aren't so tough though, right? you need a panther
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> mdke: our mailman is terrified of all dogs, even our small 5lb terrier
<nixternal> i don't know if it is a "religion" thing with him or what, because I can't see a grown man terrified by a dog no bigger than a cat
<mdke> the small ones are the vicious ones
<nixternal> lol, not this one
<nixternal> i can see him being terrified of my pitbull, and even he is harmless
<LaserJock> popey: I watched the first 4 episodes of this season of 24 Sunday night and last night. very cool
<popey> very
<popey> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
<popey> </spoiler>
<LaserJock> mhm
<nixternal> all i watch is "little people big world" and the military channel on satellite
<nixternal> oh the nuke?
<LaserJock> and biting that guys neck in the first episode
<LaserJock> yuck
<mdke> somerville32: what was that about "the artist"?
<nixternal> oh, and the dog whisperer
<LaserJock> nixternal: Ceasar Milan or whatever his name is
<nixternal> yes LaserJock
<LaserJock> nixternal: I so want that guy to come fix our cat
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> we want him to come fix the new puppy
<nixternal> my dog doesn't even like him
<nixternal> the little dog beats up the big dog
<LaserJock> my wife is literally only getting about half of the sleep she used to
<LaserJock> and I'm starting to get woken up too
<nixternal> http://www.nixternal.com/ziggy.jpg
<nixternal> can you picture that getting beat up by a little yorkie :)
<LaserJock> not exactly
<nixternal> http://www.nixternal.com/P1010021.JPG
<nixternal> that little thing runs the house
<somerville32> http://sheep.art.pl/misc/screencast.png
<somerville32> http://sheep.art.pl/misc/screencast2.png
<somerville32> Which one do you like better?
<popey> oooo purdy
* nixternal likes screencast2.png
<popey> ditto
<popey> now the next question
<popey> can we get a scalable tangoised icon like that :)
<popey> (or like whichever one we choose as a collective) :)
* mdke likes the first one more, it's clearer
<popey> yeah, you do have to get kinda close up to the second one
<popey> would look good in massive-tango-o-vision though
<popey> hmm
<popey> tang-o-vision
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-17
<somerville32> You create the scalable svg first
<somerville32> He pushed the pixels to make those two, lol
<coreyt> *considers hacking old directTivo*
<coreyt> *boggles* Segate releases 2.5 inch 15k RPM drive.  *drools*
<tonyyarusso> 15k?
<somerville32> popey, <TheSheep> http://sheep.art.pl/misc/screencast.svg <-- that's the best I can make fast
<somerville32> and matching http://sheep.art.pl/misc/screencast3.png
<coreyt> Can you stitch a ubuntu logo in the bigger screen?  http://www.ubuntutips.org/favicon.ico
<popey> is the brown in those logos too dark? somerville32
* popey wonders if he is taking the pee
<popey> or does it match the ubuntu colours nicely
<popey> discuss :)
<somerville32> popey, Not if it is tango
<somerville32> Tango has it's own palette
<popey> nice
<mpt> popey, yes, too dark
<mpt> (at least, I had to squint:-)
<mpt> nixternal, http://www.google.com/search?q=%22sic+*+dogs%22
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> Sic'em Dogs
<nixternal> hrmm, virtual-box didn't like my computer for some odd reason
<mdke> mpt: if you do some more spec-hacking, go into "convincing mode", I reckon we should try and get approval soon-ish
<mdke> mpt: also, if you have some more ideas on ImprovingWebsiteStructure, in the next few days is a good time :)
<mdke> *hugs*
* mdke hugs *
<mpt> ooh
* mpt is oohing at the spec, not necessarily the hugs
* mpt hugs * anyway
<mpt> err
<mpt> mdke, where is ImprovingWebsiteStructure?
<mpt> oh, ImproveWebsiteStructure
<mdke> (keeping you on your toes)
<mdke> sorry
* mdke beds
<MagicFab_> hi - I'd like to know why there isn't or where is the Installation Guide for Ubuntu 6.06 ?
<LaserJock> MagicFab_: should be in the installer
<LaserJock> we have maintained an installation guide since Breezy, I think
<MagicFab_> LaserJock, I mean, at h.u.c
<MagicFab> sorry
<LaserJock> MagicFab: because we don't have the doc
<MagicFab> LaserJock, there wasn't an installation guide before edgy, right ?
<LaserJock> there is
<mpt> Danger, danger, Web site structure reflecting organizational details alert!
<LaserJock> but it's maintained by the installer devs
<MagicFab> LaserJock, do u have an URL ?
<LaserJock> I don't think there is one
<LaserJock> as far as I know it's not online, but I could be wrong of course
<LaserJock> but I do know that the doc team isn't maintaining one since at least dapper
<LaserJock> because the install devs (Colin mostly) took over that
<MagicFab> When comparing https://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ and https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ , the nice installation guide for 6.10 is not in 6.06. So who did the one for 6.10 ?
<MagicFab> Looking at the credits, it seems it's an adaptation of several sources, for Ubuntu. But no mention on who adapted it.
<MagicFab> You say Colin Watson ? anyone else ?
<LaserJock> you'll have to ask mdke
<LaserJock> I really don't know how the 6.10 one got there
<MagicFab> LaserJock, ok, tx. for the hints - appreciated. It seems weird the "Long term support" version of Ubuntu does not have a propoer installation guide...
<MagicFab> but I see the reasons
<LaserJock> well, I know at least the Desktop CD doesn't
<LaserJock> now that Alternate CD installation guide on 6.10 looks like a Ubuntuized debian installer guide
<MagicFab> that's because it is :)
<MagicFab> tx
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<Madpilot> Our spammer is back - Kypir just dumped a whole bunch of porn spam on huc/c
<tonyyarusso> geez
<Madpilot> asking on #launchpad now about getting the idiot's LP account yanked
<tonyyarusso> good
<tonyyarusso> See if they can ban creation of another with the same e-mail while you're at it
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, found an LP admin in #launchpad, idiot's account now disabled
* tonyyarusso nods
* mpt gets lost in the Ubuntu Web sites
<mdke> Madpilot: I opened a support ticket on launchpad but haven't had any response.
<Madpilot> mdke, this one's been dealt with, at least
<mdke> Madpilot: the account has been disabled?
<Madpilot> yes
<mdke> good
<Madpilot> one of the LP admins was in #launchpad
<mdke> I see it now
<mdke> nice one
<tonyyarusso> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxNewVersion claims FF2 was backported to Dapper, but that seems untrue.  Clarification?
<mdke> tonyyarusso: all security updates are included with Ubuntu
<tonyyarusso> mdke: So why does packages.ubuntu.com have no knowledge of it?
<mdke> tonyyarusso: because the version number doesn't get bumped up to 2 when you add security updates to 1.5
<tonyyarusso> Oh wait, it's in dapper-security
<mdke> oh hang on, that page says it was added to dapper-backports
<tonyyarusso> :S
* mdke shrugs
<tonyyarusso> something's fishy...
<mdke> maybe packages.u.c is out of date
<tonyyarusso> perhaps?
<tonyyarusso> Any way to poke around more manually?
<mpt> Uh oh, it's another Matthew
<tonyyarusso> aaaaaah
<tonyyarusso> I'm going to start making up names for you people.
<tonyyarusso> MatthewV: You are henceforth James.
<MatthewV> tonyyarusso, uh, thanks
<tonyyarusso> MatthewV: Any time :)
<MatthewV> tonyyarusso, how many matthew's are there?
<tonyyarusso> MatthewV: At least, um, 7?
<MatthewV> there's me, and mdke , and i'm assuming that mpt is..
<tonyyarusso> There are too many Cor(e)ys too
<mpt> Welcome MatthewV
<mpt> There are also newz2000, and mdz, and others who have slipped my mind momentarily
<mpt> oh yes, matthewrevell
<tonyyarusso> right
<MatthewV> thanks mpt
<coreyt> crud
<coreyt> flipping snowing outside
<coreyt> Flash 9 for Linux went Gold Today.
<coreyt> http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash
<crimsun> thanks, on it
<coreyt> installer works
<crimsun> I presumed that :)
<crimsun>   flashplugin-nonfree_9.0.31~ubuntu1_source.changes: done.
<crimsun> Successfully uploaded packages.
<linuxphotogeek> popey: morning here!
<jsgotangco> hi
* linuxphotogeek heads off to work.
<popey> lionel: :)
<popey> er, oops
<mdke> mpt: poor old Garrett doesn't get a mention
<Laser_away> morning mdke
<mdke> morning Laser_away
<mdke> or indeed, more correctly, evening
<Laser_away> heh, 10:30am for me
<jenda> 11111 Ubuntu users counted! http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/
<mdke> what was the outcome of the binary drivers by default outcry? Are we still installing em?
* mpt wonders if there was an outcry when every Linux distribution was bundled with Netscape 4
<fergus> hey all
<nixternal> mpt: i don't remember an outcry at all, but still a very good point
<nixternal> man, I remember the Netscape days like it was just yesterday
<mdke> anyone know the answer?
<nixternal> mdke: i swore i read they weren't going through with it as default because beryl/compiz wasn't going to be ready
<mdke> hmm
<nixternal> now where i read that, heard that, or dreampt that, i couldn't tell you
<fergus> hello
<LaserJock> mdke: you'd have to look at the spec, but I think the distro sprint will decide it
<Burgwork> mdke: afaik, no decision yet
<Burgwork> we don't even have the latest compiz for testing and nobody seems to care
<mdke> ok thanks LaserJock / Burgwork
<mdke> we'll leave the docs for now then
<mdke> Burgwork: I read about the compositor for metacity on p.g.o today, is that any good? is it in feisty?
<Burgwork> not yet and sort of
<Burgwork> reverse that
* mdke tries it
<mdke> it doesn't do anything!
<popey> moo
<mdke> moo indeed
<popey> hope michael / ubuntuclips can come up with a nice how-to for .movs
<popey> neither of the procedures on the help page work
* mdke slaps a wishlist label on .movs
<popey> heh
<popey> well, ubuntuclips do avi, ogg and mov
<popey> not specifically for ipods
<mdke> nod
<LaserJock> mdke: question for you. how easy would it be to insert "topics" into the new help system?
<mdke> LaserJock: very. But we're limiting the number of topics that appear on the front page to those which are really appropriate. What did you have in mind?
<LaserJock> mdke: Edubuntu
<LaserJock> we'd like to sort of "add-on" to ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> and insert Edubuntu topics
<mdke> LaserJock: ah. well I suppose that removing some would be appropriate too. Lemme think quickly
<LaserJock> I don't think we necessarily need to remove stuff
<mdke> yes, I think it would be easy
<LaserJock> if it's a big deal
<mdke> edubuntu-docs should depend on ubuntu-docs, obviously
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> and we'd need to ensure the edubuntu docs appear in our custom yelp patch, when it's done
<mdke> that should be fine too
<LaserJock> what about the about ubuntu topic, can that be replaced?
<mdke> LaserJock: erm. hmm.
<mdke> not sure
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if it would be better for Edubuntu to just keep a copy of Ubuntu's topics and just have our seperate package
<willvdl> with profiling it could work?
<mdke> LaserJock: what do you mean?
<mdke> willvdl: maybe
<LaserJock> I'm saying
<LaserJock> if in edubuntu/
<LaserJock> we keep a copy of the ubuntu "topics" but take out ones we don't want
<LaserJock> and add in ours
<mdke> and conflict on ubuntu-docs?
<LaserJock> and then create a standalone edubuntu-docs package
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> because I can see that it could make packaging interesting as well
<mdke> You'd still need to install them in /usr/share/ubuntu-docs though
<LaserJock> why?
<LaserJock> is stuff hard-coded?
<mdke> oh no, if you amended the omf files that would be ok
<mdke> but you have to leave the series-id in the omf files
<LaserJock> yeah, I was thinking I could have an edubuntuize script
<LaserJock> does the yelp frontpage come from ubuntu-docs or yelp itself
<mdke> bit of both
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> i might be a little afk here the next day or so, my mom is in the hospital with some heart complications. they aren't 100% positive if it was a heart attack or if she has something like pneumonia yet
<nixternal> it seems when there is heart damage it gives off enzymes, but also there are some illnesses that do the same, so we are very hopeful here
<mdke> nixternal: best wishes and good luck
<nixternal> thanks
<willvdl> nixternal: sorry to hear. all the best
<nixternal> if one good thing comes out of this, she will quit smoking and starting eating healthy, or i will kill her :)
<nixternal> s/starting/start
<nixternal> she is better today, but they are keeping her for some more tests at least until tomorrow
<nixternal> she is just super tired now, so it gives me some ubuntu time :)
<nixternal> umm, it seems i missed an edubuntu meeting
<willvdl> my GF went to sleep an hour ago so I also have ubuntime
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> my gf is out of town until sunday, so i am good
<willvdl> nixternal, still trying to work out what docs go online/packaged in meeting
<nixternal> and when she comes home, i can't pick her up, i will be at the LUG event :)
<crimsun> my girlfriend (Ubuntu universe) is vengeful and just can't stop making demands.
<nixternal> man, is it me or is there a TON of doc work for feisty yet to be done?
<nixternal> hahaha crimsun
<nixternal> your a luser
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> crimsun: i told you that sharing her is a good thing and that you shouldn't try to hog her all to yourself
<crimsun> well, I'm leaving my girlfriend shortly.
<crimsun> you guys and gals can have her all to yourself.
<nixternal> i mean come on, you let LaserJock write stories and manager her, he is like her pimp :)
<willvdl> for an older women?
<nixternal> haha
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: You're dating universe?
<nixternal> older than universe would be something like unstable or sid :)
<willvdl> or dos
<crimsun> heh, sometimes it seems that way
<crimsun> people always complain about how stuff doesn't get done
<mdke> crimsun: you're leaving?
<crimsun> then I look around and discover I'm just about the only one actually getting stuff done
<willvdl> crimsun, you got my sound working. you're a hero :)
<nixternal> haha
<mpt> crimsun gets sound working?
<mpt> Sound isn't working on my machine ...
<nixternal> crimsun gets everything working
<nixternal> oh no mpt
* nixternal ducks
<crimsun> mpt: bug report?
<mpt> No, it's not reproducible
<mpt> Sound works for about a month out of every seven or eight months
<crimsun> but you didn't file a bug report?
<mpt> No, because it's not reproducible
<mpt> well, I suppose "I have no sound" is reproducible, but "Sound stops working when X" isn't, because I don't know what X is
<willvdl> now I'm jus looking for a new bitch to get my laptop power management to suspend
<crimsun> please file one anyway; see my LP page for the link to info I'd appreciate you attaching.
<mpt> okie dokie
<mdke> willvdl: there is only one power management bitch
<willvdl> ogra?
<mdke> mjg59
<crimsun> try another matthew.
<willvdl> excellent. he will rue the day my laptop booted for the first time
<mpt> ogra isn't a matthew
<mpt> at least, not yet
<willvdl> ogra, does gnome-power-manager
<willvdl> he looks like a matthew
* mpt rues the day he confused cjwatson with mjg59
<mdke> oof!
<willvdl> full name?
<mdke> willvdl: he won't rue it, he probably already knows how to do it
<mdke> willvdl: Matthew Garrett
<willvdl> ah
<dsas> willvdl: He's in Australia fixing laptops at the minute though...
<mdke> likely he has the model is his house :D
<mpt> crimsun, that's a very nifty summary, perhaps it should be on the wiki somewhere
<willvdl> hmm, maybe he can pop round sunny south africa on his way home
<willvdl> I'll make him some weak tea
<mpt> crimsun, and w.r.t. (2), how do I know what my "preferred audio device" is?
<willvdl> the one you prefer sound coming out of?
* willvdl is getting silly
<willvdl> ciao all
<crimsun> mpt: it's the top one listed unless you have a different one listed in step (5)
<crimsun> mpt: sorry, the top one from step (4)
<mpt> ok, ta
<crimsun> mpt: you're not expected to know that last bit; I'll get all that info when a bug report includes all info requested in those steps
<mpt> What package should I specify?
<crimsun> linux-source-$(uname -r|awk -F- '{ print $1 }')
<crimsun> dapper -> linux-source-2.6.15, edgy -> linux-source-2.6.17, feisty -> linux-source-2.6.20
<mpt> No wonder I can never remember how to use awk
<mpt> crimsun, assembling bug 80344
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 80344 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Sound works only a few weeks per year" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/80344
<crimsun> thanks.
<crimsun> mpt: we can migrate to #ubuntu and troubleshoot now if you have the time
<mdke> gah
<nixternal> is that a good gah or a bad gah?
<mdke> the openoffice applications have different names between their entries in the applications menu and their actual names
<mdke> Openoffice Presentation - > Openoffice Immpress
<nixternal> ya, same with Kubuntu
<mdke> so what do we call them?
<nixternal> with KMenu they can do Name=OpenOffice.org Impress and Description=OpenOffice Presentation or what not
<nixternal> mdke: to make it easy, I use what the menu says to try and avoid confusion
<nixternal> then under that you can let it be known what the actual name is
<nixternal> i was trying to figure out how to link to OO.o help, but OO.o help is in binary form and uses a setup similar to Microsoft
<mdke> yes, tricky
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-18
<mdke> hmm, my sound has stopped working too, sucks
<crimsun> I swear everyone is conspiring to make me batty today, and I have not had enough coffee
<mdke> :)
<nixternal> crimsun: no tea?
<nixternal> i could only imagine your hacklayer - columbian coffee, express machine(s), red bull fountain(s), and more
<nixternal> s/express/expresso
<crimsun> mdke: if you're still experiencing it, I can help you in #ubuntu
<mdke> crimsun: another time I think; it's very late here. I appreciate the generous offer though.
<crimsun> nixternal: closer to just litres of water and a couple cups of coffee
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3703 /trunk/validate.sh: another one for irc bot
<bhuvan> wow it works!
<mdke> nice job bhuvan
<mdke> that's really cool
<bhuvan> :)
<bhuvan> only today i received semi-automated reply from micah
<mdke> yeah, I got that too
<mdke> I just forwarded it to you :)
<mdke> nice
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> they have an UI where we can forward these commit alerts to any channel: http://cia.navi.cx/account/
<mdke> yeah
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3704 generic/serverguide/C/ (8 files):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Delete package management section from server guide.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Include windows networking section in server guide.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Include the template for new sections listed in the specification.
<bhuvan> mdke: i'd like to include a new status target in ubuntu/Makefile. right now it may include a target for server guide. shall i go ahead with the commit?
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3705 generic/serverguide/C/ (6 files): correct the status of all chapters
<xipietotec> is this also the channel for ubuntuguide.org?
<popey> isn't ubuntuguide.org an unofficial guide?
<xipietotec> is it? damn
<xipietotec> okay, it might be a good idea to add something like this to the wiki then http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/EnableMultimediaKeys
<popey> in gnome that exists already
<popey> well, some of it
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3706 generic/serverguide/C/ (package-management.xml serverguide.xml):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: As suggested by mdke restore package management in the stand-alone
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: version of server guide.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #80390 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Firefox still reports Edgy" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/80390
<jsgotangco> heh come one, give us some slack on documentation, edgy is still current and we only got herd 2 hehehe
<jsgotangco> well we had some real UI changes
* dsas wonders if it's worth packaging the docs more often.
<mdke> popey: we're overflowing with logos ;)
<somerville32> oh yeah?
<popey> going to make a logo page
<popey> so people can just upload them to that and others can comment
<popey> sound good?
* mdke no's
<popey> and in english?
<mdke> popey: why do we need a logo?
<popey> gives people a way to feel like they are contributing :)
<mdke> erm. that's not a reason
<nixternal> hehe
<popey> well, there is a logo on the videos at the moment
<popey> but its the ubuntu-uk one
<nixternal> mdke: i think it does need a logo truthfully
<popey> we could replace that, but with what?
<nixternal> the Ubuntu logo :)
<popey> meh
<popey> :)
<nixternal> hehe
<popey> fair point
<mdke> the whole point of implementing the Ubuntu style for the website was to keep the style of the site similar to the other Ubuntu websites
<nixternal> im sittin' in the computer lab at school bored out of my mind
<mdke> I don't understand why a separate logo is required, and to be honest I think it is a bad idea
<popey> would you like to say that on-list?
<popey> so others dont waste their time?
<mdke> well, I don't take the decisions
<nixternal> no, let them waste their time, i like seeing what people can do, so when i need some artwork i can use them :)
<mdke> was there some request for logos? I don't understand why everyone is producing them
<popey> i asked for a replacement slide for front/back of videos
<nixternal> mdke: the same reason everyone started creating logos for all of the marketing projects, which I still don't what it is
<mdke> nixternal: that's called logoitis
<nixternal> hehe
<popey> thanks Dr Mdke
<mdke> popey: that's totally different though, nothing to do with a logo, surely?
<nixternal> you are a lawyer, not a doctor :)
<popey> well, as i said, there is a logo on their at the moment
<popey> some may have interpreted "new slide" as "replace logo"
<mdke> popey: well, do you disagree that we should retain the style of the Ubuntu websites?
<popey> brb
<popey> baby in arms
* mdke nods
<popey> too long a discussion for one handed typing
<popey> :)
<nixternal> popey: that is no excuse :)
<popey> :
<nixternal> use your toes
<nixternal> keyboards are ambidextrous
<Burgwork> popey: in general, there is no need for a specific logo for a specific team, unless it is a loco team
<popey> ok
<Burgwork> especially given you are doing a help thing
<Burgwork> which means you are going to have lots of new users, who are likely to be confused by a seperate logo
<popey> would it be prudent for me to mail the list stating such?
<mdke> I'm happy to do it
<Burgwork> probably yes
<mdke> but I want to make sure you feel the same way, this isn't something I want to push onto you
<Burgwork> creating a logo seems to be one of the first things somebody wants to do
<popey> i have to pop out to get diesel and some booze, if it isn't done by the time I get back I will do it
<popey> to be honest I dont really care
<popey> I just want people to..
<popey> a) make screencasts
<popey> b) watch screencasts
<popey> c) ???
<mdke> ok
<popey> d) profit!
<mdke> (done)
<popey> ta
<mdke> so, we're having a wiki weekend!
<mdke> please read this page and add your inspirational thoughts to get people excited
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam/WikiWeekend?action=show
<mdke> kmandla of the forums is the brains behind it: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=341385
<LaserJock> hmm, cool
<LaserJock> can I get them to do the MOTU wiki? ;-)
* mdke jealously guards the help wiki
* mdke fridges it up
<mdke> seriously though, please improve that wiki page
<MagicFab> mdke, I can't seem to find what happened to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing at last Community Council meeting
<mdke> MagicFab: it was approved (see the bottom of the Community Council Agenda)
<mdke> I'm happy to say :)
<LaserJock> \o/
<MagicFab> mdke, missed that... so... no word on the main wiki yet!
<mdke> MagicFab: that's right. I will be implementing the documentation wiki ASAP
<LaserJock> main wiki will be a beast
<LaserJock> there is such a variety of content
<mdke> I think so yeah
<LaserJock> it's hard to treat is as a scratch board if you have to worry about licensing :/
<MagicFab> mdke, linking to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License I presume, which is very clear.
<MagicFab> Excellent news! I was getting questions from possible contributors
<MagicFab> And of course at support I needed to know how that could be reused
<mdke> MagicFab: reused? you can just "use" it
<MagicFab> mdke, I use them more than once :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> MagicFab: do you have statistics about what are the most frequent support questions, out of interest? (I'm thinking more of personal users than businesses)
<mdke> would be helpful for yelp
<MagicFab> mdke, proprietary stuff comes to mind... along with media plugins and xorg
<mdke> what sort of xorg?
<LaserJock> like how to configure xorg?
<MagicFab> proprietary = wifi drivers, graphic drivers, printer/scanner installs
<MagicFab> LaserJock, no, like weird font problems
<MagicFab> In general we get the most obscure things or the things that have so much docs that it's difficult to sort through all od it
<mdke> no official statistics though?
<MagicFab> mdke, not yet :) it'll come
<mdke> cool
<MagicFab> although it would be more interesting to gather stats from ALL marketplace listings offering support. Canonical is just a tiny portion of support for Ubuntu I guess
<mdke> yeah, obviously it will have a different focus to free support too
<mdke> getting feedback from you guys about documentation and how to improve would be great, and maybe even some contribution :)
<MagicFab> web stats for doc.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com should be a good indicator
<LaserJock> yeah, I find gathering statistics to be one of the most difficult parts of Linux/FLOSS
<LaserJock> but maybe that's because I'm a scientist and like numbers and things like that
<MagicFab> mdke, there is an internal "web self-service" portal where solutions are /will be posted for customers. Still unclear if those would be public / contributed back.
<mdke> documentation?
<mdke> shame on you for not contributing directly
<mdke> or do they pay extra for that?
<MagicFab> mdke, well, internally documented solutions are so specific to customer's and include private information
<mdke> oh, if it's customer specific, obviously that's different
<MagicFab> mdke, *I* am pushing for public disclosure, but I also needed to know that there was a precise licence in the official docs.
<mdke> ah
<MagicFab> My reasoning is, if I solve a customer problem and I improve the official docs as a result, it can't be held secret/restricted
<mdke> careful about using the word "official" :)
<mdke> it's a wiki, after all
<MagicFab> mdke, that's another *huge* problem I think. Canonical will have to produce it's own "official", rubber-stamped, time-snapshotted docs derived from the CC licensed content
<MagicFab> that of course is IMVHO :)
<mdke> it doesn't have to, but there is nothing to stop it from using community documentation in support responses if it decides that the particular material is accurate. A rubber-stamped, time-snapshotted fork isn't required
<mdke> MagicFab: you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance thought
<tonyyarusso> FirefoxNewVersion is apparently incorrect re: Dapper backport, according to jdong.  Changing unless someone knows otherwise.
<mdke> yes, I heard the same
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-19
<mdke> mpt: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/
<mdke> mpt: pretty rough stuff, especially the MAC, but maybe helpful
<mpt> mdke, neat
<mpt> Did the people who wrote the Switching From Windows guide know about this? :-] 
<mpt> ugh, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromWindows#head-328622217d9484960c5c758f3387cbdd61dabc2b is bad though
<mdke> mpt: same author, broadly, I think
<mdke> mpt: he's doing some exams at the moment and hopefully will get increasingly involved after they finish
<mpt> Does he have a name? :-)
<tonyyarusso> Better not be another Matthew :P
<mdke> mpt: Phil Bull
<mpt> ah, ok
<coreyt> Can we get a "Todo" Wiki for the documentation team :)
<coreyt> Hell a bug system would be great as well :)
<coreyt> Then it could be prioritized and people can assign themselves problems to be fixed.
<somerville32> Just file a bug
<LaserJock> coreyt: we have a todo list and you can a file bugs against the ubuntu-doc product
<mdke> coreyt: both of those exist already
<mdke> ah, LaserJock mentioned that
<LaserJock> ;-)
<jenda> mdke: ping
<mdke> jenda: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jenda> meh :)
<jenda> mdke: The Czech LoCo might be overdubbing them screencasts, but needs a place to put them.
<jenda> mdke: any chance they could be hosted on a docteam server?
<popey> we could put them in the same place I guess
<willvdl> how often is doc.u.c built?
<mdke> jenda: we might be able to think of a solution involving the screencast site
<popey> we could have a naming convention which invoved using the two letter country codes for the langauge of the text and the langauge of the voice over
<popey> because in this case they will be different
<mdke> popey: you mean accept english videos with localised voice-overs only?
<mdke> sounds good. I think we could just use the language code of the voice over for that. Then if someone localised the video too, it can replace it
<LaserJock> mdke: oh my gosh, one of my LP bugs just got set to "Fix Committed" :-)
<mdke> LaserJock: I had three today :) fix-it-friday
<LaserJock> mdke: and it only took 9 months :-)
* mdke pats LaserJock 
<LaserJock> maybe I should go poke #launchpad for another one
<LaserJock> or maybe that's just being greedy
<mdke> i whinged a bit last night and the result was that salgado fixed 3 of my bugs today
<LaserJock> wow, nice
<mdke> if you have any easy bugs, get them to do them for a fix it friday
<paulproteus|jhu> popey, BTW, it would be interesting to record keystrokes and mouse presses in a script so that way an English Ubuntu user could make a screencast and the Hungarian guy could just replay the keystroke recording and make a fresh screencast.
<jenda> mdke: sounds great :)
<mdke> jenda: for future things though, Canonical provides hosting for locoteams
<jenda> great.
<jenda> mdke: our locoteam is in the process of migrating.
<jenda> (to Canonical hosting)
<mdke> ah
* mdke hugs mpt 
* mpt hugs mdke 
<mdke> that's the stuff
<LaserJock> where's mdke and why has dholbach taken over his nick
<LaserJock> ;-)
<mdke> we're bringings hugs to #ubuntu-doc
* mdke hugs LaserJock too
<LaserJock> shesh
<LaserJock> my wife wonders about all you sometimes, "Why are they all huggy on there?" she asks
<mdke> she follows?
* Burgwork hugs LaserJock's wife
* mdke hugs LaserJock's wife
<LaserJock> mdke: sometimes when I'm in bed she reads it
<mdke> cheeky
<Burgwork> jenda: how does one request hosting from Canonical?
<Burgwork> I keep meaning to move Canada's to there
<mdke> Burgwork: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting
<jenda> thanks mdke, now I don't have to admit I didn't know :)
<Burgwork> mdke: thanks
<mdke> the wiki knows all
<LaserJock> yeah, scary
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, here's a translation question for you. Say I want some file translated, is there an easy way to put it up on Rosetta and just have people translate it for me?
<mdke> LaserJock: do you have it in po format?
<LaserJock> I can
<mdke> *pot
<mdke> you can upload the pot template to a product or distro source package
<LaserJock> and then it's just a matter of getting translators aware or willing to do it?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> you can leave the permissions open, or assign translation groups to it (such as Ubuntu translators)
<LaserJock> I'm going to have a set of .desktop and .directory files for Edubuntu
<LaserJock> for dynamic menus
<LaserJock> and the only negative thing is that they currently aren't translated
<mdke> right
<mdke> you could see how ubuntu/kubuntu do it
<LaserJock> mdke: have you done a bzr branch of the sandbox branch of the repo?
<LaserJock> I've noticed that since 0.13 bzr has gotten a lot faster
<mdke> LaserJock: no. I was thinking that it would be a good weekend to learn how to use bzr
<LaserJock> but I've been branching like forever
<mdke> what does bzr branch do?
<LaserJock> that creates a local branch
<LaserJock> it's sort of like a co for svn
<LaserJock> but it grabs the entire history
<LaserJock> something must be wrong, I just stopped it at 52min.
<mdke> there is no co?
<LaserJock> there is
<mdke> bloody hell, 52minutes?
<LaserJock> yeah, something must be wrong
<LaserJock> you can do bzr co
<LaserJock> and it'll act like svn and just grab the last revision
<mdke> and you can use it normally?
<LaserJock> yeah, the made basically a svn emulation mode
<LaserJock> *they
<mdke> ok
<mdke> and is our sandbox thing working as a centralised repository?
<LaserJock> but it really shouldn't take 52min to branch :/
<mdke> well, it's a big repo
<mdke> or maybe the whole repo isn't in the sandbox, dunno
<LaserJock> well, anybody in the ubuntu-doc team can push to it
<LaserJock> there are 3 branches on LP
<mdke> and push is like svn commit?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> see you when you do bzr commit, it's local
* mdke boggles
<LaserJock> so you can be working along locally
<LaserJock> commiting as you go
<LaserJock> so you don't lose track, etc.
<mdke> but why do you need to commit locally if you're working locally already? how does that work
<LaserJock> and can revert things
<LaserJock> well, think of it this way, when we svn co, we can't do any version control without commiting to the repo, right?
<mdke> well you can revert local changes
<LaserJock> for instance, with the packaging guide, I sometimes lose what I'm doing because I'll be writing something over a period of days
<LaserJock> well, in this case you wouldn't have to revert all the way back
<LaserJock> because you're commiting locally
<LaserJock> then, when you're ready to put things to the LP repo you can bzr publish
<LaserJock> and that actually pushes all your local commits to the repo
<mdke> ok
<mdke> what's the difference between publish and push?
<LaserJock> umm, I think I just used it wrong
<LaserJock> I think to publish your branch you use bzr push ;-)
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> anyway, you don't *have* to do it this way
<LaserJock> you can do it the svn way too
<LaserJock> mdke: http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows is kinda helpful
<mdke> I'm going to spend some time reading up
<LaserJock> they seem to have really increased the speed lately, be sure to have at least 0.13
<mdke> what's in feisty?
<mdke> 0.14:)
<LaserJock> 0.13
<LaserJock> oh, maybe I haven't updated
<mdke> 0.14~rc1-0ubuntu1
<LaserJock> I actually added the bzr repo to my sources.list
<LaserJock> so I can get the latest on edgy
<LaserJock> I figure they should know how to make a decent .deb ;-)
<mdke> presumably
<LaserJock> they really have made it quite flexable as far as workflow
<mdke> it would be nice to move if it works well.
<mdke> If you can checkout and work normally without getting the revision history, that will dispose of speed worries, won't it?
<mdke> is this what I should get? https://launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/+branch/ubuntu-doc/trunk
<LaserJock> that seems to be the most updated one
<LaserJock> that automatically grabs from our svn
<mdke> I really don't understand the Fetch Phase 1/4 stuff
<mdke> crazy
<LaserJock> mdke: I think bzr checkout --lightweight is what you'd want for the svn-like thing
<mdke> oh right, yeah, this isn't progressing much
<LaserJock> I think a regular co grabs the history too so you can also make local commits as well
<LaserJock> bzr is really powerful
<LaserJock> but it's also got a lot of options
<LaserJock> svn co, svn up, svn commit is really easy to do
<mdke> ok, I'll try --lightweight
<mdke> otherwise I'll leave this checkout thing overnight or something
* mdke races his pet tortoise against bzr
<mdke> if it told me the files it was getting I think I'd feel more encouraged :)
<LaserJock> eventually we could have a repo with branches for each of say generic, ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu, common
<mdke> that would be a shame, I think
<LaserJock> I'm still far from understanding how all that works but it sounds cool
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that it would be too bad
<LaserJock> but I know what you mean
<LaserJock> there's something to keeping everybody together
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> but I think their branch repo thing could be a bit of an inbetween
<mdke> so far it's downloaded 17 mb of .bzr and no files >_<
<LaserJock> making it more modular, but still centralized
<LaserJock> well, I think that's normal
<mdke> with --lightweight? svn doesn't do that
<mdke> does bzr just have one hidden folder in the top of the tree, rather than in all the subfolders?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> .bzr at the head holds everything
<LaserJock> in fact, when you push you are just sending .bzr
<mdke> I see
<LaserJock> I cant take a branch
<mdke> do you can't choose which subfolders to checkout, you have to checkout the whole branch?
<LaserJock> that's what a branch is
<LaserJock> I think of it as sort of smaller scale than a repo
<LaserJock> so each branch should be a distinct "thing"
<LaserJock> granted that model seems to apply better to software than docs
<theCore> mdke: bzr download the whole .bzr directory, then unpack the last revision from it
<theCore> downloads*
<LaserJock> theCore: we are doing co --lightweight though
<LaserJock> I gues it's just downloading the last revision to .bzr
<theCore> LaserJock: same thing, except it only downloads the last revision, instead of all of them
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, it took me 10m for --lightweight
<LaserJock> hmm, our repo is just so big :/
<LaserJock> it's only 38MB though
<LaserJock> 10min for 38MB is kinda ...
<LaserJock> slow
<theCore> bzr is indeed slow
<theCore> but I don't know why
<mdke> cool, mine is downloaded too
<LaserJock> you should do a full bzr branch overnight to try that out
<theCore> I wonder if it uses compression for checkouts
<theCore> what is the docs branch's URL?
<LaserJock> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/ubuntu-doc/trunk
<theCore> thanks LaserJock
<LaserJock> mdke: if you want to try pushing you'
<LaserJock> you'll want to grab the sandbox branch
<mdke> I can't use that one?
<LaserJock> no, that one is read-only I think
<mdke> is it the usual things like "bzr rm" and "bzr cp"?
<LaserJock> I believe so
<LaserJock> mdke: bzr help is pretty good
<mdke> read the docs, you think?
<mdke> surely not
<LaserJock> bzr help commands gives you a list of commands
<LaserJock> and bzr help <command> gives you more info
* mdke shakes his head at the reading the docs bit
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-20
<LaserJock> mhm
<mdke> crimsun: NOT MAD! sound disappears after resuming from hibernate
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, for me bzr co --lightweight = 10m and svn co = 3m
<mdke> crimsun: probably, then when I reboot it is muted
<LaserJock> mdke: bzr size = 38MB svn size = 88MB
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> well, here's one thing that I thought about
<LaserJock> the biggest speed issue for bzr is the initial branching
<LaserJock> but one of the advantages of bzr is that you don't have to have a special server
<LaserJock> we could infact make weekly tarballs of the repo and put them on doc.ubuntu.com
<crimsun> mdke: are you running the latest bios on your t43?
<LaserJock> so if you want to get the repo you download the tarball and bzr pull to the latest revision
<crimsun> mdke: because the "no sound after resuming from suspend-to-*" is a bios bug.
<mdke> crimsun: no idea. I haven't ever updated it. But I've never noticed that bug before with previous releases
<crimsun> if you have Windows still dual-booting, run the System Updater from within Windows
<mdke> I haven't got it
<mdke> crimsun: I suppose I could install it though
<crimsun> thinkwiki may have pointers to a bios updater for executing in Linux [if one is publicly available] 
<mdke> can I do it from cd/usb floppy?
<crimsun> if there's a live CD of Windows, sure
<crimsun> I honestly have no idea about that, though
<mdke> never heard of a live cd
<mdke> I was thinking that you could get a floppy which just updates the bios
<crimsun> if one such tool exists, thinkwiki.org would have a pointer to it
<mdke> as, usb floppies don't work
<mdke> s/as/ah
<popey> evening all
<mdke> hiya popey
<mdke> crimsun: ok, I have a boot cd, here goes
* popey is liking the new gnome control center [sic]  in feisty
<LaserJock> yeah? I was reading a pretty hot thread about that on the forums today
<LaserJock> people can get so bent out of shape over things like that
<popey> http://gallery.popey.com/gallery/screenshots/Screenshot_Control_Center looks nice
<popey> well yeah, i did kinda thing "holy crap, where has the administration menu gone!"
<popey> then i saw that and calmed down a bit
* popey notes missing icons for hubackup
<mdke> popey: it rocks
<popey> yeah, quite sweet
<popey> that'll get its own screencast, oh yes, mark my words
<LaserJock> most of the complaints I saw fell into 2 camps. 1 ) "OMG, it's WINDOWS!" and 2) "But now it takes 3 clicks to get where I want, unacceptable"
<popey> heh
<mdke> I think that's the biggest improvement GNOME has made for a while
<mdke> those menus were holding it back
<popey> they could add an icon to their panel for it, that would remove one click :)
<nixternal> jeesh, could that control panel have anymore in it?
<popey> i have a few extras that basic install wont have nx
<popey> like beryl and hubackup
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> KDE System Settings is similar, just more compact, combining like causes
<nixternal> i.e, Look and Feel would all be on one panel with gui buttons or tabs
<popey> the names on the left highligt sections on the right
<nixternal> i do believe they are going to compact that even more as well, but they are definitely on the right track
<popey> i think the support system should ask people what version of ubuntu they are using when they submit tickets
<popey> otherwise the first question will always be "what version? "
<mdke> or it should know already
<mdke> just file a bug
<popey> people will be giving duff menu paths not realising that dapper != feisty in the menu department
<popey> holy hell, 25 people in the screencast team
<popey> go us!
<mdke> :)
<popey> had a personal email today asking if we could make the videos available on itunes as a podcast by exposing the rss feeds :)
<popey> "funny you should say that" :)
<mdke> I chased the domain today, no response yet
<popey> is it a canonical decision?
<popey> i would be interested to know how much traffic we have generated since we moved to doc.u.c
<mdke> popey: it's not really a decision at all, it's an admin request
<popey> do you use webalizer or anything on that box?
<mdke> but I guess realistically it does involve a decision from elmo
<mdke> no, shall we install something?
<popey> i wouldn't mind having webalizer generate stats for /screencasts and put them somewhere
<popey> yes, please
<mdke> is it easy to setup?
<popey> if you install webalizer, I can create the config file
<popey> yes
<popey> i run it on all my webhosts
<popey> there are other alternatives like analog, but webalizer is IMO better
<popey> http://sapstuff.com/usage/ an example of what you get
<mdke> ah, easy then. Ok it's installed
<popey> cool
<popey> will create config file which you will need to drop in /etc and then maintain the crontab to make it run periodically
<popey> daily should be sufficient
<popey> thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I just had a decent chat with #bzr
<mdke> I've been having one with kiko
<LaserJock> seems a currently worked on "smart server" feature is what we are looking for
<LaserJock> to make bzr initial checkout all speedy
<LaserJock> but they did encourage me to sort of set the initial checkout aside and have people test it out
<popey> is there any plan to make an ubuntu server product like the windows home server?
<popey> I know there is a rough spec for a business server on launchpad/wiki
<mdke> dunno what that one is
<popey> which?
<mdke> windows home server
<popey> windows home server was announced at CES, it's based on win2k3
<popey> it does your usual home serving tasks but has a few nice features
<popey> single instance backup - so if you backup all your PCs and they all have foo.dll with the same size/date/time the server stores one copy
<popey> remote access - you get a dynamic dns hostname from microsoft and can access any machine inside your lan through the server
<mdke> doesn't XP do the backup thing
<popey> or remote machines?
<popey> this backs up all your home pcs to a central server
<mdke> no, I mean the system restore thing
<mdke> oh
<popey> yes, this is an extension of that to cover more than one home pc
<wongy> How's the WikiWeekend going?
<wongy> We are having a small gathering in Brisbane, Australia Sunday afternoon so we'll try and tidy a few things during that to do our bit :-)
<popey> mdke: like the new title page
<mdke> crimsun: bios update hasn't helped, sound still broken after hibernate
<mdke> popey: nod
<popey> i like the simplicity of them
<popey> and nice strapline on the second page
<mpt> popey, what title page are you referring to?
* mpt wonders why help.ubuntu.com's bookmark icon appears to be 8-bit dithered
<popey> the two that michael most recently posted
<mpt> Nothing from any Michael in my Inbox
<mpt> ... However, that might be because I've overfilled my mail quota :-(
<mpt> popey, do you have the URLs handy? :-)
<popey> mpt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2007-January/007986.html
<popey> sorry for delay, took daughter to ballet
<crimsun> mdke: "broken" being...?
<mdke> crimsun: well, no sound
<crimsun> mdke: right, but do you mean "inaudible sound despite mixer settings being unmuted" or do you mean "mixer settings being muted by default upon resuming from suspend-to-*"?
<crimsun> mdke: and is this under 5.10, 6.06, 6.10, or 7.04?
<mdke> crimsun: inaudible sound despite mixer settings being unmuted upon resuming from suspend to disk, under 7.04
<crimsun> mdke: updated ``amixer'' -> pastebin, please?
<mdke> crimsun: I need to suspend to reproduce it, gimme a few
<crimsun> mdke: did it work properly in 6.06 and/or 6.10?
<mdke> crimsun: I don't know I'm afraid. I haven't really used hibernate enough to notice it before
* somerville32 spies crimsun.
<crimsun> I'm in another meeting atm, Cory, so I'll join as soon as I can
<crimsun> Cody
<crimsun> bad case of bad coffee or something
<mdke> crimsun: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/2296/
<crimsun> mdke: ok, more info needed: from a fresh (cold, power down and back up) boot, ``cat /proc/asound/card0/codec97#0/*'', then suspend-to-* and resume, then grab that same output
<mdke> crimsun: will do.
<fijam> hello
<fijam> I am volunteering to help with xubuntu documentation, I have already downloaded svn trunk, docbook, read the docbook and patch specifications and skimmed through documentation style guide
<mdke> ooh, cool.
<fijam> Expect some questions from me soon :)
<mdke> fijam: somerville32 is the person to talk to about xubuntu stuff, glad to hear you're interested. Feel free to ask any of us general questions of course
<somerville32> :)
<fijam> We've already met :)
<mdke> crimsun: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/2308/ is before and http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/2309/ is after
<K_Mandla> Greetings!
<LaserJock> hi!
<LaserJock> the guy that started the WikiWeekend I presume
* mdke nods
<mdke> hi K_Mandla
<crimsun> mdke: could you attach to a bug report, please?
<mdke> crimsun: sure, what package?
<crimsun> against linux-source-2.6.20
<mdke> crimsun: just those outputs?
<crimsun> and the info included before
<mdke> crimsun: ok!
<crimsun> thanks. Sorry to push it off into a bug report, but I'm swamped atm.
<mdke> crimsun: of course, np
<somerville32> Ok
<somerville32> Lets wiki! :)
<K_Mandla> LaserJock Yep, that's me
<K_Mandla> Did anyone happen to see the question on the forums about adding a resource to support/local for Polish users?
<K_Mandla> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=2040425&postcount=10
<mdke> no, didn't see that
<mdke> will reply now
<K_Mandla> I didn't have an answer for Azrael, other than to message mattheweast
<K_Mandla> Thanks
<brussel_> Does this forum answer questions on how to do proper documentation on https://help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<brussel_> :s/forum/channel/
<LaserJock> well, there is a wiki guide
<LaserJock> that does help, but yeah, you can ask here
<brussel_> I've tried to find various documentation but there seems to be a few versions of wiki. Maybe you can point me to the right one so I don't ask really really stupid questions.
<brussel_> Right now I'm having troubles just linking from one portion of a document to another....
<LaserJock> on the same page?
<brussel_> yes
<brussel_> I see the section is in the table of contents so it must have an anchor but i don't see it...
<LaserJock> brussel_: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnLinking has some info
<brussel_> thanks
<LaserJock> specifically [[Anchor(anchorname)] ]  to set and anchor and [#anchorname label text]  to link to it
<K_Mandla> Is there a thumbnailing option for the attachment:___.png tag? like Mediawiki uses? I can't find it anywhere.
<mdke> not sure, check HelpOnActions/AttachFile, the inline thing might do it. but I don't think there is a thumbnail option
<K_Mandla> thanks
<brussel_> I'm guessing [[BR] ] [[TableOfContents] ] || automatically links to headers even though the headers have no anchors. Is there a special syntax to link to headers I can use within the document to keep in simple?
<LaserJock> brussel_: well, if you know the anchor that the TableOfContents links to I bet you can use that
<brussel_> That's the problem, there is no apparent anchor other than the == sub-title == and === header3 ===
<brussel_> you can see what i'm talking about here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WordPress
<mdke> you'll need to make anchors yourself if you want to link to them other than from the table of contents
<mdke> LaserJock: you can't use those because they can change, I believe
<brussel_> Darn, that's not as elegant as just linking directly to the already predefined header like the TOC does
<LaserJock> mdke: ah, I wondered about that
<mdke> brussel_: but the predefined header is UGLY!!
<brussel_> That may be but i don't want to clutter the document with anchors and such making it so busy it's hard to read.
<brussel_> s/read/code/
<mdke> brussel_: don't worry about it. The anchors don't appear to readers, so it's not a big issue. Just keep them on separate lines and it will be readable
<brussel_> ok, if that's the proper way to do it.
<mdke> it's the only way :)
<brussel_> Then it's the proper way! lol
<mdke> that wordpress page is nice, but don't we have a separate page for a LAMP installation?
<brussel_> Now I have another question, on page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnLinking they have a references with a "1" linking to a footnote. How did they get that 1 raised like that?
<brussel_> mdke, separate page for a LAMP installation, I don't follow why that's relevant
<mdke> brussel_: I mean, if we have a page which already deals comprehensively with doing a LAMP installation, there is no need to repeat a section on the Wordpress page about it, the user can simply be referred to the existing page
<mdke> that way there is no problem with the duplicates material getting out of date and updating both
<mdke> about your question, footnotes are done with [[FootNote(text of footnote)] ] 
<mdke> (see HelpOnMacros)
<brussel_> mdke, That's interesting about having a LAMP and wordpress section. No wonder people find ubuntu documentation hard to find. Here's why
<brussel_> the LAMP installation in my mind and probably many others means booting the lamp configuration off the DVD.
<brussel_> those of us who aren't using that lamp setup would never think of looking for wordpress instructions there.
<mdke> ??
<brussel_> the proper way in my mind would be to have a link from the lamp documentation to the wordpress documentation
<mdke> no, it's the other way round. You need a lamp installation to install wordpress
<mdke> you don't need wordpress to run a lamp installation
<mdke> I don't understand what you are getting at
<brussel_> i didn't choose the lamp installation though
<brussel_> i chose ubuntu-desktop
<mdke> right, so if you want to install wordpress, you go and find a wordpress page
<brussel_> so i'm having to go back and install things like wordpress and mysql which may have been preinstalled with the lamp
<mdke> that tells you to install LAMP, because wordpress needs it
<mdke> all I was saying is that given that we have instructions to do both, the latter should include a link to the former rather than reproducing the same material twice
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install wordpress
<nixternal> do that from a vanilla system and it will all get installed at once :)
<mdke> nixternal: but you need to configure the LAMP components
<brussel_> nixternal, i may have done just that
<brussel_> mdke, i think i understand what you are saying but let me rephrase it to be sure
<nixternal> Apache will need very little configuration, but MySQL will need the account creation and a couple of other changes to get it to listen on * all ports
<mdke> brussel_: are you using the WordPress page? your lock has expired, can I edit it?
<brussel_> the wordpress page should say something like.... yes, you can modify it
<mdke> thanks
<nixternal> if you have a wordpress page, say you need to install and setup LAMP, link to the wiki page, and then start off setting up wordpress after the person has gone back and read the LAMP page?
<brussel_> nixternal, yes, i think that's what mdke is saying
<brussel_> and i agree with that
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I've made the change now
<nixternal> edgy repos have 2.0.4 still for wordpress, i think there have been a couple of security releases since 2.0.4
<brussel_> mdke, nice, looks good, i wish i were so quick.
<mdke> well, the page was already good :)
<brussel_> it's pretty good though there are a few mistakes on it that i encountered this morning when i tried to set it up
<mdke> it needs something on upgrading too, I guess
<brussel_> darn, just read up on the footnote. wasn't quite what i hoped for.
<brussel_> guess i'll fold clothe for a few
<LaserJock> what about a having a page that has all these types of apps?
* mdke points at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers?action=show&redirect=Server
<mdke> cut that ?action nonsense
<LaserJock> yeah, that's it, although I was thinking less techie, but yeah
<popey> evening all
<mdke> LaserJock: I guess it would be possible to improve that
<LaserJock> well, it looks pretty comprehensive, I just wonder if people find it easily
<LaserJock> I'm really bad about looking for docs too
<LaserJock> but I was just trying to set up some server stuff on my home machine and was having an aweful time finding stuff
<mdke> it should be linked on the front page, I hope
<mdke> I dunno what more we can do, tbh
<mdke> but when that happens to you, you should remember where you had issues so we can improve it
<LaserJock> well, you know what would help
<LaserJock> is for these kinds of pages, the front page, server page, is if there was a link to them from the pages they link to
<mdke> all the pages they link to should appear on the page?
<mdke> I don't get it
<LaserJock> what I mean is, I basically never go to the main pages
<LaserJock> so I end up hopping on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheMySQLPHP
<mdke> so that should have a link to Server on it?
<LaserJock> not knowing that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers even exists
<mdke> ok, I get it. Similar to the link on the top of the Server page itself?
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> that could be automated using the category system maybe
<LaserJock> I mean right not the assumption is that the first place you land is UserDocumentation or Servers
<LaserJock> which would be the case if you aren't relying on searches
<mdke> it's definitely a good idea
<LaserJock> the Moin pages on Servers seems to be just the Moin internal documentation
<mdke> LaserJock: yes.
<mdke> that's probably fair enough
<mdke> MoinMoin is absolutely horrible to install
<LaserJock> mdke: really? the moin package in the repos is no good?
<mdke> LaserJock: it's fine, it provides the program, but you have to set up a wiki instance and the various methods of setting up apache are horrible
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> I've only done it via the desktop moin
<LaserJock> which is very easy
<mdke> yeah
<K_Mandla> is there a way to delete attachments, or is that an admin-only thing (which i suppose to be the case)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> K_Mandla: did you try the page which lists the attachments? (which specifically are you talking about?)
<K_Mandla> i added two screenshots to the TransparentTerminals page, but there's no way to thumbnail them, so they're of no use
<K_Mandla> i just figured it would be easier on the database to dump them, since they're 500K each
<K_Mandla> (embarrassed)
<jenda> mdke: ping
<mdke> jenda: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jenda> I need your help :(
<jenda> mdke: the bzr on doc.ubuntu.com is an outdated version
<jenda> and i can't build the branch there.
<mdke> K_Mandla: you can't delete them from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TransparentTerminals?action=AttachFile ?
<jenda> (because of a long-fixed bug)
<mdke> jenda: ah
<jenda> mdke: is it dapper or edgy on there?
<LaserJock> mdke: I did a full branch of the bzr repo in 53min
<mdke> jenda: neither, it's 5.10
<jenda> o.O
<mdke> LaserJock: w00t!
<mdke> LaserJock: is that including all repos, or just trunk?
<LaserJock> trunk
<mdke> omg
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> but that's a full branch
<mdke> jenda: we can try and update it, depending on dependencies, as it were
<K_Mandla> mkde nope, i have options for get and view, but nothing that resembles delete ...
<mdke> K_Mandla: ok, I guess it's restricted then
<K_Mandla> no problem.
<mdke> deleted
<K_Mandla> thanks :)
<mdke> if you wanna become a wiki editor, you can though
<jenda> mdke: that would be great.
<jenda> I'm totally lost without that :/
<mdke> jenda: have you got some debs for me?
<jenda> I could manually copy, of course.
<jenda> mdke: just a sec.
<LaserJock> mdke: I was thinking the best way to go is to make a tarball that people can download and then bzr pull to the latest revision
<LaserJock> we need to get people over the initial "OMG, this takes forever"
<mdke> LaserJock: you need to get me over that too :)
<mdke> LaserJock: is there any reason not to use --lightweight?
<LaserJock> mdke: well, for me it kind of detracts from some of the cool features of bzr
<LaserJock> but we can do it either way
<mdke> hmm.
<mdke> well, if you want the cool features, it's obviously reasonable to download all that stuff
<mdke> it would help if bzr gave better progress bars, maybe tell me file by file how it is going
<LaserJock> well, I don't think it's quite that easy
<LaserJock> I could ask though
<LaserJock> I don't think it downloads file by file
<LaserJock> I think it gets the meta data then creates the files
<LaserJock> mdke: there's also a GUI for bzr
<LaserJock> maybe that would help
<mdke> could be
<mdke> is the progress bar better?
<LaserJock> dont' know, I haven't tried it yet
* mpt wakes up
* mdke considers hugging mpt, decided to wait until he's at least had a shower
<mpt> haha
<mpt> mdke, I've reported some bugs on bzr's progress bars, and gave "better progress feedback" as my #1 wish in a wishlist session about Bazaar in November
<mdke> mpt: did it get anywhere?
<mpt> thanks popey
<popey> np
<mpt> bug 34864, bug 41832, and bug 60171 particularly.
<mpt> Where's Ubugtu when you need her
<popey> i think she was bouncy so someone kickbanned it/him/her
* mdke pats Ubugtu 
* popey holds Ubugtu down and farts on its face
<popey> welcome back
<mdke> harsh
<somerville32> Yucky
<LaserJock> ewwwww
<LaserJock> I hope you don't make a screencast of that
<jenda> mdke: on another note, where has ML-forum bridge gone?
<mdke> hmm?
<LaserJock> mdke: are we getting rid of doc.u.c altogether then?
<mdke> LaserJock: no, just moving, eventually.
<LaserJock> are docteam. and doc. the same machine?
<mdke> no, that's the problem
<mdke> for now we've redirected http://docteam.ubuntu.com to http://doc.ubuntu.com, we can't do any better until they are on the same machine
<LaserJock> so do we going to keep the docteam.u.c machine?
<LaserJock> are they at the same location?
<mdke> LaserJock: no, the httpS://docteam machine (with the svn server) is a Canonical server
<LaserJock> ahh
<mdke> the http://doc machine is a rented server
<LaserJock> so you want to stop using the rented one
<mdke> LaserJock: Canonical wants to stop paying for it, I think
<mdke> it's pretty shit, tbh
<LaserJock> I'd assume that would mean our ssh access would leave
<mdke> LaserJock: do you use it?
<LaserJock> to doc.u.c? only rarely
<LaserJock> we were hosting a few files on there for the packaging guide
<LaserJock> and I did some bzr stuff on there
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> I just know that Canonical is very protective of Canonical machines (reasonably so)
<LaserJock> that's why MOTU can't have it's own archive admins, etc.
<mdke> there are degrees of machines
<mdke> there are some which are super private and only for employees and such.
<mdke> and others which are "for the crack"
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-21
<theCore> mdke: maybe, I could host it
<mdke> theCore: I don't think there will be a problem with hosting, but thanks for the offer
<theCore> ah ok
<nixternal> so am I reading into this correctly? Are we going to start using Bazaar and push away from SVN?
<mdke> nixternal: no, just talking about bzr
<nixternal> ahh ok, I was just a little confused maybe with getting rid of https://docteam and forwarding it to doc.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> and the initial "OMG this takes forever" factor of Bazaar
<nixternal> mdke: here is what I have noticed. Bazaar uses your SSH RSA key, and my KDE SVN account also uses my SSH RSA key, and KDE SVN+SSH is slow initially just like Bazaar. I wonder if it has something to do with that
<LaserJock> well, one of the bzr guys told me yesterday that latency was the problem, or something like tht
<nixternal> that is a lot of latency
<LaserJock> but supposedly when this "smart server" thing is done it'll be afaster
<mdke> nixternal: nothing was said about getting rid of https://docteam. it's http://docteam (without the "s") that we've forwarded to doc.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> i wonder if the SSH authentication is just slower than normal
<nixternal> mdke: gotcha!
<LaserJock> nixternal: I don't think so because I've used bzr without ssh and it was still slow
<nixternal> ahh
<LaserJock> but right now it's it's slower then zvn by a factor of 3
<LaserJock> but that's on initial checkout
<LaserJock> we need to test the actual spped of use
<LaserJock> because you only checkout once (or at least not that often)
<nixternal> LaserJock: the actual speed of use is damn close to SVN
<nixternal> so I have noted with the sandbox Riddell created and the Ichthux branches
<nixternal> hiya jsgotangco!
<LaserJock> hmm, this seems odd: ping for www.ubuntu.com is 199ms but for my lab computers at the uni it's 1000ms :(
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> nice
<LaserJock> so it's 5 times faster to go 5000+ miles than 5
<nixternal> well for me, if I use ca.archive it is way faster than using us.archive. and our group manages the US archive at Argonne which is less than 10 miles from me
<nixternal> us == 106ms and ca == 35ms
<LaserJock> shesh
<jsgotangco> hey
* jsgotangco about to go offline to grab his plane
<nixternal> jsgotangco: just ordered Portillos :)
* nixternal eats
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> alright im out ciao
<LaserJock> cya jsgotangco
<LaserJock> hi, btw
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mpt> mdke, the summary at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/help-and-support-access could be updated with the summary from the spec itself
<mpt> (but I don't have permission to do that)
<coreyt> Any of you guys running Beryl on Edgy?
<coreyt> sheesh
<coreyt> some of those devs in beryl-dev need an attitude adjustment.
<Laser_away> :-)
<crimsun> meh, I just ignore them.
<mdke> mpt: ok
<mdke> mpt: done
<fijam> Hey, who else is working on xubuntu desktop guide?
<mdke> fijam: somerville32
<mdke> that's about it
<fijam> and nobody else? It seems that there's a lot of work to be done
<mdke> fijam: yeah, that's right I think.
<mdke> fijam: the important thing is to make realistic targets, don't bite off too much for each release
<fijam> Yeah, I am aware of it
<fijam> thanks anyway
<mdke> a guy called luzi was working on it
<mdke> but he said he hasn't got much time
<fijam> Luzius Something?
<mdke> that's right
<fijam> I'll search for some contact
<fijam> hmm, xubuntu documentation structure is organized differently from ubuntu/kubuntu documentation. Do you happen to know if that's done purpousefully or it is like that because it is outdated?
<mdke> fijam: in this release the ubuntu/kubuntu documentation changed structure very substantially
<mdke> fijam: as yet the xubuntu documentation hasn't had enough contributors to do the same, although Cody has some plans I think
<fijam> I'll have to ask him for details
<mdke> yep
<fijam> ok, see you later
<mdke> you should make integration of xfce upstream documentation a big target, IMO
<fijam> we'll see what we can do with our limited manpower
* mdke nods
<fijam> but I agree that xubuntu shouldn't fall behind
<fijam> bye
<fijam> is conglomerate a good tool to edit docbook documentation?
<mdke> fijam: I personally don't like it much
<mdke> but you can try it!
<fijam> any alternatives? (I suppose I'll stay with bare code anyway)
<mdke> fijam: I think most of us tend to use normal editors or bluefish
<fijam> ok, thanks
<medders> Hi, I'm going to record a screencast (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/ManagingDigitalPhotos) and wondered if anyone had any comments on my draft plan
<popey> am not at home right now, will have a look when I get in, is that okay?
<medders> popey: yeah sure, any time would be alright by me
<dsas> medders: f-spot is installed by default
<medders> dsas: i was thinking about using dapper
<medders> dsas: I did't think it was installed there
<dsas> no, it was an edgy change.
<mdke> we should try and get the screencasts as up to date as possible, though
<mdke> in particular, we should start aiming at feisty soonish
<medders> thats true
<medders> i doubt the businesses and such that use the LTS would look at the screencasts
<medders> do you think that f-spot should be the default for importing photos?
<medders> gthumb seems dated next to it
<mdke> yes
<medders> do you know if it will be in feisty?
<mdke> I thought it was already in Edgy
<dsas> there's been no mention of removing f-spot for feisty.
<medders> i mean making it the default for importing photos
<medders> :)
<dsas> I didn't realise it wasn't to be honest.
<medders> i havn't checked in feisty but I know that in edgy gThumb is still the default
<mdke> I'll check in a bit
<mdke> medders: no, it's still gthumb, you could file a bug about that if you want
<medders> mdke: Cheers, I'll do that sometime today
<medders> Done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/80856
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 80856 in Ubuntu "F-Spot as default for importing photos" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<dsas> hmm, I could be wrong mdke, but I thought you were one of the people against f-spot being default in edgy.
<mdke> dsas: yeah, you're right
<mdke> I've converted now :)
<dsas> mdke: Did your problems get fixed?
<mdke> dsas: no, I changed the way I manage photos
<dsas> ah, I remember, to dated folders from organised folders?
<dsas> I always used dated folders anyway, that's what my camera did on windows...
* mdke nods
<mdke> I just imported everything into f-spot
<medders> do you know what command I should use to get f-spot to autmatically import the photos from a camera?
<medders> the one that goes into the removable drives and media dialog
<medders> I've got it up until "f-spot --import"
<medders> but I don't know how to pas the right directory to it
<mdke> you open that dialogue from System/Control Center/Removable Drives and Media
<mdke> or did I misunderstand?
<medders> Yup, sorry, should have said
<fijam> Is there any reference or specification that covers the new structure of documentation available?
<mdke> TopicBasedHelp
<fijam> ah, right
* mpt hugs everyone
* mdke hugs mpt, reasoning that he must have showered by now
<mpt> At the local Saturday market there was a guy with a big sign offering "Free Hugs"
<mpt> and a cameraman nearby for the inevitable YouTubery
<mdke> mpt: did you give him one?
<Admiral_Chicago> mpt: i think that's the first I ever heard of YouTubery
<mdke> "This is from the Ubuntu docteam
<mpt> http://youtube.com/results?search_query=free+hugs
<mpt> mdke, alas, the market was nearly closed and I had to run to get some money to buy stuff
<mpt> and when I returned they had vanished
<mdke> I bet it was all in your imagination
<nixternal> mdke: jjesse sent an email about the SRU for Kubuntu-docs. I have responded, but won't be able to send it out until I get home
<nixternal> it seems they block some ports here at the college
<mdke> I read it
<popey> evening all
<mdke> crimsun: can you remind me of the commands I need to do for debugging that audio thing? Just doing the bug report now.
<crimsun> tail -2 /proc/asound/oss/sndstat && amixer && lspci -nv && asoundconf list && cat /etc/asound.conf ~/.asoundrc* && dmesg && cat /proc/interrupts
<mdke> whoosh
<mdke> crimsun: which of those was the one I did both on a cold boot and after hibernate?
<crimsun> the following one: cat /proc/asound/card0/codec*/*
<mdke> great
<crimsun> I believe Andrew Ash has added a link to that LP bug comment on the DebuggingSoundProblems wiki page
<crimsun> ah, he just dumped the entire comment (essentially) at the top of the page
<crimsun> just as good
<popey> mdke: are you serious that you think screencasts should target feisty?
<mdke> popey: well, I said we should start thinking about it
<popey> ok
<mdke> crimsun: it's bug 80893
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 80893 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Audio disappears after hibernate" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/80893
<popey> problem is the UI changes so we can be instantly out of date
<popey> unless we wait and start making them after the freeze?
<popey> (I considered this for dapper last year)
<crimsun> mdke: triaged, thanks.
<mdke> Well, it depends if the freeze is going to mean something or not
<popey> heh
<mdke> thank you crimsun
<popey> take for example the herd2 had System --> preferences whereas now feisty has the gnome control center
<mdke> crimsun: I'm not sure that it occurs after suspend, only hibernate. Let me try
<mdke> crimsun: yeah, it's fine after suspend
<crimsun> Description amended.
<mdke> :)
<crimsun> well, that pushes it square into suspend code
<crimsun> squarely
<crimsun> (suspend-to-disk)
<mdke> ah
<crimsun> ok, this might be dumb, but...
<crimsun> upon resuming from suspend-to-disk, is the volume key's mute/unmute toggle working?
<mdke> I'll check
<crimsun> I _think_ the T43 has one
<mdke> it has a mute, not an unmute though
<mdke> or rather, you press the mute button to mute it, then the volume up key to unmute it
<crimsun> right, so you'd have to lower/raise the volume using one of the other hotkeys to unmute
<mdke> I'll try.
<mdke> crimsun: one thing I just realised.
<mdke> crimsun: what i just did was: cold boot (working), hibernate (not working), suspend (without rebooting - working)
<crimsun> right, I figured you did that ;)
<mdke> crazy that suspending it makes it work again, without rebooting
<mdke> ok, I'll try another hibernate
<crimsun> would you test the cold boot -> suspend-to-ram -> resume path?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> crimsun: that path works. Trying hibernate again now
<mdke> crimsun: ok, the volume keys seem to work, in that Gnome is showing me volume ups/downs/mutes. But sound isn't coming out
<crimsun> mdke: ok, thanks
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3707 ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent: some entities used in office.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3708 kubuntu/C/office/office.xml: some typos
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3709 /trunk/ (18 files in 3 dirs): adding pot files and script to make em easily. More checking needs to be done for these
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3710 ubuntu/pots/.pot: whoops
<mdke> ;)
<mpt> mdke, what's the plan for dealing with the empty contents pane?
<mdke> mpt: which pane?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-14
<jjesse> nixternal: yeah i know i scared myself, yes 50/50 load
<nixternal> hehe, k
<jjesse> sorry was grocery shoopping and dinner
<posingaspopular> i can work on some docs (hopefully) if you guys want
<posingaspopular> really depends when/if i get a laptop
<nixternal> posingaspopular: hurry up and get it, get KDE 4.0 on it, and we will task you with a boatload :p
<posingaspopular> haha okay i'll see what i can do nixternal
<XiXaQ> I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CalendarServer and finish it. What's necessary, is making a user for it, scripts for /etc/init.d and scripts to run it at boot and shut it down with the system.
<astabeno> sommer: I am looking over your email, are you there
<sommer> astabeno: yeppers
<astabeno> I assigned bug #181099 with the ntp-simple package being wrong.  Is that a correction we will make with the release of Hardy, if so where is that ntp.xml package it is not in the server guide from the repository that I can see.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 181099 in ubuntu-doc "ntd-simple no longer available as package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181099
<sommer> astabeno: cool, the ntp section is actually in generic/server/C/network-applications.xml
<astabeno> OK great, looks like the package is just ntp, should be a simple edit.
<sommer> yep, that's a good bug to start getting a feel for DocBook as well :-)
<astabeno> I have committed the change, I hope I did everything correctly.
<astabeno> how can I tell if my changes got committed, how often is the launchpad site updated?
<sommer> astabeno: you need commit rights to have your changes commited to the repo
<sommer> astabeno: when you do a bzr commit that's to your local check out
<sommer> you should make a patch file of your changes and submit it to the doc ml with a subject of [PATCH]
<astabeno> sommer:  That makes a lot of since, thanks
<sommer> it'll then be reviewd and commited, then once you've built up enough trust someone will recommend to grant commit access directly
<sommer> astabeno: np
<sommer> astabeno: you might also reference the bug number in your email
<jjesse> nixternal: patched kde-menus-C.ent for kde4 section
<jjesse> nixternal:  for just the kde muen so far
<jjesse> working on the rest
<nixternal> go go go :)
<nixternal> I am trying to work myself up into the doc mood :)
<nixternal> any idea on what sections you want to cover yet?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-15
<kgoetz> hi all, is there still ~ 1 month until string freeze? if so i'll start reading doco trying to find things that might need fixing
<ubotu> New bug: #183025 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Spelling mistake in 'What is a filesystem' help page" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183025
<Taim> Hello folks.
<kgoetz> hi
<jjesse> hello
<Taim> fast on the fix there jjesse
<Taim> I just started reading the first message when you published the fix :)
<ubotu> New bug: #183148 in ubuntu-docs (main) "error in commandline example in mailman setup from the Ubuntu Server Guide." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183148
<rhpot1991_laptop> hey guys, do I need to do anything to make a new wiki page show up in search results, or does it just take some time to happen?
<rhpot1991_laptop> also is there any way to delete unused attachments from it
<emmajane> I think they're usually done on a cron job, but I'm not sure how it works on the Ubuntu wiki.
<rhpot1991_laptop> alright thanks, I'll keep an eye out and see if it ever makes its way into the search results
<ubotu> New bug: #183339 in ubuntu-docs (main) "wrong shortcut in basic commands: 99 - Moves to the <emphasis role="strong">b</emphasis>eginning of the previous or current word.  b moves to the previous letter." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183339
<seisen> why is it when I try to validate it says no such file or directory
<seisen> ok figured out why it says that
<seisen> now I get this: warning: failed to load external entity
<seisen> hey Admiral_Chicago why I am gettign this error:  warning: failed to load external entity pathtofilename
<Admiral_Chicago> thats a good question, what are you doing?
<posingaspopular> seisen: don't ask him, he's useless ;p
<seisen> to validate my change
<Admiral_Chicago> it is in...
<Admiral_Chicago> paste the full output
<Admiral_Chicago> posingaspopular: :P
<posingaspopular> Admiral_Chicago: im not sure if I want to run kubuntu (w/ the kde 4) or the xubuntu if/when i get a new laptop
<posingaspopular> kubuntu needs lots of help with the docs this cycle because of kde4, but xubuntu can always use more help
<seisen> Validating ubuntu/desktop/desktop-effects/C/desktop-effects.xml ...
<Admiral_Chicago> posingaspopular: rm ~/.kde4/share/config/plasma*
<seisen> warning: failed to load external entity "ubuntu/desktop/desktop-effects/C/desktop-effects.xml"
<Admiral_Chicago> that should fix your plama issue
<posingaspopular> i guess i can dualboot..
<Admiral_Chicago> what command did you run seisen?
<posingaspopular> Admiral_Chicago: what i did was navigate to HOME/.kde whatever and did rm r * and reverted back to the original settings
<Admiral_Chicago> that would wok
<seisen> ./validate /ubuntu/desktop/desktop-effects/C/desktop-effects.xml
<Admiral_Chicago> put the full path in
<Admiral_Chicago> brb
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-16
<seisen> that still didn't work Admiral_Chicago
<posingaspopular> i wonder if jjesse is around? he could help you
<seisen> hey jjesse
<seisen> im too lazy to email the doc team
<posingaspopular> ah that's probably the way to go tbh
<seisen> ya probably
<posingaspopular> everyone i know that is smart enough to help you (ie, everyone other than me) is afk
<seisen> they are busy people
<ubotu> New bug: #183459 in ubuntu-doc "libxtst6 misses link /usr/lib/libXtst.so -> libXtst.so.6" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183459
<ubotu> New bug: #183462 in ubuntu-doc "debian-helper-scripts sysvconfig conflict but do not say so" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183462
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-17
<astabeno> I am trying to commit changes to my local repository from bazaar and I am getting the following error
<astabeno> Cannot lock LockDir(address-to-branch): Transport operatin not possible: http does not support mkdir()
<jjesse> astabeno: do you chave commit rights?
<astabeno> no I am just trying to make a patch for bug #181099 to mail to the ubuntu-doc list so someone else can commit it.  I was following the wiki and it has you commit which I assume is local and then run bzr bundle > diffname.txt to create the patch
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 181099 in ubuntu-doc "ntd-simple no longer available as package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181099
<astabeno> I checked out a light weight copy of the branch, is that the problem.
<Admiral_Chicago> no
<Admiral_Chicago> astabeno:  the light weight copy of a branch is just the branch without the history
<astabeno> thats what I thought, is there something that would make it read only so I cannon get a lock on it?
<astabeno> I deleted my current branch and got one with history and it works.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-18
<bdmurray> Do you guys still use svn for the ubuntu-doc(s)?
<bdmurray> I've answered my own question.  I seem to be way behind.
<rhpot1991> Can anyone tell me how to link to a wiki page if it isn't directly under the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ directory?  I have looked at the WikiGuide and every time I use those methods it wants my page to live under the community directory.
<kyleN> I keep forgetting to turn this on when I come in
<ubotu> New bug: #184049 in xubuntu-meta (main) "Xfce4: demotion to universe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/184049
<rhpot1991> Should user created wiki pages live directly under community?  I put one somewhere else and I am having a hard time linking to it.
<chochem> hi - i've just been using various howtos and guides from the forum for setting up utorrent and so I thought I might gather those instructions in a Grand Unified Howto on the wiki. Would that be okay? I can see that there are a few specific-program Wine guides already...
<chochem> I'm thinking a) basic wine setup b) firefox integration and c) icons and appearance adjustments for better integration
<chochem> and a short notice at the top notifying people of the existence of Deluge (which is sort of the closest thing, linux-native-wise...)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-19
<ubotu> New bug: #184259 in ubuntu-doc "update crash in hardy alpha3  (/var/log/dist-upgrade/) " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/184259
<Kr0ntab> good evnin/mornin folks...
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-20
<lostrose> hey there... im a total newbie to linux. and having a bit of a hard time getting ubuntu up and running... can any one help please
<seisen> you want to try this channel #ubuntu
<lostrose> thanks ...
<seisen> no problem
<j1mc> hello, i'm working on the config-desktop portion of xubuntu docs, and am not sure what level of detail to go into.  xubuntu doesn't have a gui to add themes, so i was going to write up how to add themes to a ~/.themes folder.
<j1mc> do i need to describe each step of downloading & extracting an archive?
<j1mc> it seems like too much detail, but someone may not know how to do that.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-12
<mdke> adiroiban: /win 5
<mdke> adiroiban: sorry, typo
<mdke> adiroiban: was going to ask how the script went yesterday
<Rocket2DMn> ah hey
<Rocket2DMn> i setup bazaar and downloadd the jaunty and intrepid branches
<mdke> hi Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> to get a branch to show on https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc does it have to be registered FROM LP? or does doing it through cli also register it?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: either, but you probably don't need to push your branch to Launchpad at this stage, unless you particularly want to. Publishing the branch is optional
<Rocket2DMn> as per a report earlier, my makefile was broken
<Rocket2DMn> i thought you had merged the fix
<Rocket2DMn> i also couldnt get yelp to show any content when i ran "yelp something.xml"
<mdke> the only broken bit in the makefile was the bit that generates a pdf of the serverguide, you're unlikely to use that. But yes, I merged the fix
<mdke> to check your branch is up to date, run "bzr update"
<Rocket2DMn> Tree is up to date at revision 146.
<mdke> as for yelp, unfortunately yelp has an awkward bug which means that "yelp something.xml" doesn't work. You need to give it the full path, so "yelp /ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/repos/ubuntu-jaunty/something/C/something.xml"
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: in what way is your makefile broken?
<Rocket2DMn> ah ok got yelp working, thanks for that
<Rocket2DMn> http://paste.ubuntu.com/104133/
<Rocket2DMn> looks like im missing something from docbook
<dsas___> ("yelp `pwd`/something.xml" is often easier to type if you're in the same directory as the file you wish to view
<Rocket2DMn> thanks dsas___ , thats exactly what i did :)
<mdke> ok, that error isn't broken, you're just missing the necessary libraries to build html from xml
<mdke> try "apt-get build-dep ubuntu-docs" to get all the possible necessary ones
<mdke> hi there dsas___
<Rocket2DMn> ah i think thatll do that mdke , why didnt i think of that :(
<Rocket2DMn> probably b/c i figured build-essential was adequate
<mdke> it's not really obvious :)
<mdke> I can't recall if it's on the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> if it is, i didnt see it
<dsas___> was just looking at that, it's not.
<Rocket2DMn> probably should be on this page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<dsas___> hi there mdke
<mdke> i'll add it
<Rocket2DMn> ok the docs built on my desktop here, lets see how long they take on the old laptop
<mdke> shouldn't be too bad just to build the English ones
<mdke> it's the translations that really blow away the cpu
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, the laptop is going on 5 years old though
<mdke> it will be fine :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah im sure it will make it
<Rocket2DMn> maybe ill fiddle with it at the LUG meeting tonight
<mdke> great
<Rocket2DMn> so do we prefer to make patches and put them in bug reports?
<mdke> I'm off for an early night, cya all
<Rocket2DMn> alright, thanks, see ya
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, that's the best way to ensure things don't get lost
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> ciao
<adiroiban> mdke: i have updated the stats http://ubuntu-docs-stats.tla.ro/ubuntu-8.10/
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-19
<dendle> Hi All.....just a quick message to introduce myself as I am new to the Ubuntu documentation team and I am looking for advise on where and how to start....
<dendle> Hi All ......quick message to introduce myself and say HI.  I am new to the Ubuntu documentation team and I am looking for advise on where and how to start....
<czajkowski> dendle: folks sometimes just idle in here due to time differences
<dendle> czajkowski: np thanks for the heads up......
<czajkowski> dendle: if you look at the link in the topic, that should help you
<dendle> czajkowski: shall start with repository....thanks
<czajkowski> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-21
<Traveler> hi to ol
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-22
<theDex> heya
<theDex> i just made my first changes to the ubuntu wiki, could one of you check if thats compliant to your standards?
<theDex> the page would be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/SamsungN510
<theDex> thanks
<dhillon-v10> theDex: sure. just a sec.
<theDex> thanks
<theDex> i wasn't sure if the 'Current Issues' tab is strictly for Lucid or for things in Karmic aswell
<theDex> so i added my fix for Karmic
<theDex> ack already found an error
<theDex> alright fixed what i found
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-23
<_stink_> if i find a grammar mistake or typo somewhere in doc.ubuntu.com, i have to report it as a bug in launchpad for it to get fixed?
<starcraftman> _stink_: do you mean help.ubuntu.com?
<starcraftman> and yes, making a bug report works. Or if it's just a little thing you could edit yourself. Or just tell me the page and I'll fix it saving ya time :)
<_stink_> starcraftman: like http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/libvirt.html
<starcraftman> _stink_: ah, those would be system documents. You need to file bug reports. I don't have commit access.
<_stink_> starcraftman: ok, thanks.
<Traveler1> i noticed verz little arab members of ubuntu so i decided to be amember i can translate documentation in arabic accurately so?
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: ping :)
 * starcraftman activates the grand pong machine.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: lol :) do you know who wrote the server docs. this one called windows-networking.xml
<starcraftman> server docs as in system? That would be negatory.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: system docs. yup, I am copying over a *lot* of content from that guide which is applicable to kubuntu so just wanted to say a *big* thanks to that person
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: well you know what you can take the thanks for being awesome :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: lol, I just do my little thing :)
<starcraftman> Just had a user day session earlier today.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: yeah heard about it, how did it go
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: well, glad I typed before hand. I had around 170 lines to copy/paste and even going pretty quick just finished with 6 or 7 mins to spare for questions. Only had 3 questions, guess I was clear. :)
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: nice job :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: ty
<j1mc> ubuntu-doc meeting in #ubuntu-meeting...
<j1mc> getting started now
<j1mc> nixternal: ping
<j1mc> jjesse: ping
<nixternal> yo yo
<jjesse> ping
<j1mc> meeting in #ubuntu-meeting :)
<j1mc> if you have the time
<AtomicSpark> Well that answers my question.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-24
<dendle> hi all, I am new to the group and am looking to work on Ubuntu documentation.  I have a long history of document writing (in work life) and would like to use these skills for the Ubuntu documentation set.  The BeginnersFAQ is a place where I could start.  Can someone please let me know if I can just jump straight in or is there a formal process for working on a document etc
<dhillon-v10> dendle: welcome, well the first step will be to subscribe to the mailing list, we have been pretty active recently :)
<dhillon-v10> dendle: then pick up a task from the TODO list (I'll get you the link) or work on the wikis
<dhillon-v10> dendle: here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks?action=show&redirect=DocumentationTeam/Tasks
<dendle> Dhillon: sweet thanks for this.  I have joined the mailing list, whew rather active.  I will check out the link you mentioned.
<dhillon-v10> dendle: really ?? we usually get like 3 messages per day, and IMHO for a doc. based list that's pretty good, and in IRC if you want to type a nick type the first few characters and then press tab to get their complete nick
<dendle> nice....be a while since I used IRC......will all come back though.....
<dendle> dhillon-v10: opps
<dhillon-v10> dendle: that's better :)
<dhillon-v10> dendle: a first task could be reviewing docs. for simple mistakes, that's how starcraft-ntbk got me started, and then I moved on to writing me own docs :)
<dhillon-v10> *my
<starcraft-ntbk> dendle: a new doc recruit, yay
<dhillon-v10> starcraft-ntbk: what's up :)
<j1mc> die, ghelp links, die!
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: lol, what if the links actually die would you feel bad
<j1mc> i doubt it
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: :)
<j1mc> :)
<dhillon-v10> j1mc: so how did the meeting turn out, I left after a while
<j1mc> dhillon-v10: it was pretty productive, i think
<dendle> starcraft-ntbk: hey there :)
 * starcraft-ntbk gives wave.
<dendle> dhillon-v10: reviewing docs sounds like a great idea....
<starcraft-ntbk> dendle: see link I sent ya on getting started. Lots of good info on our homepage,nice and tidy.
<dendle> starcraft-ntbk: coolness, will start looking there....
<starcraft-ntbk> dendle: sure, I'm around for questions, but not right now..... hockey game starting!!!
<dendle> starcraft-ntbk: np's chat later...
<starcraft-ntbk> dendle: sure, if ya got any qs see any members on doc team here or wikifg listed on that page.
<dhillon-v10> dendle: follow what starcraft-ntbk tells you closely, you slowly get better at it and then start taking on more responsibilities :)
<starcraft-ntbk> dhillon-v10: oh you give me too much credit. Ya did a lot on your own :)
<dhillon-v10> starcraft-ntbk: nah, you are too modest :)
<starcraft-ntbk> hehe
<dendle> dhillon-v10 / starcraft-ntbk: will follow my pseudo-master closely :)
<starcraft-ntbk> well later folks, ping if theres anything important.
<dhillon-v10> starcraft-ntbk: bye :)
<dendle> starcraft-ntbk: chat later
<dhillon-v10> dendle: if you don't have a specific task atm, you can start reviewing my work, I actually needed someone to review it anyways :)
<dendle> dhillon-v10: that sounds like a good place to begin
<dhillon-v10> dendle: how familiar are you with launchpad
<dhillon-v10> shaunm: hi there :)
<dendle> dhillon-v10: not very, however have used many svn based web reposotories before
<dhillon-v10> dendle: sorry for the delay, working on something else, alright so here's my branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~dhillon-v10/kubuntu-docs/dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> dendle: in there go to the docs folder and start reviewing the contents I listed in the branch description :)
<dhillon-v10> dendle: any questions ?
<dendle> dhillon-v10: not yet, but I am sure there will be....he he....still bouncing between pool and computer so will look into the docs folder over the course of the afternoon
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do you think about bug 510318 ?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510318
<Guest13559> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510318
<Guest13559> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510318
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510318
<ubot4> Guest13559: Bug 510318 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/510318 is private
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New]
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> Launchpad bug 510318 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) ""Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings!" (About Ubuntu) page contains encoding error" [Undecided,New]
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> ubot4: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Guest13559> ubot4: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ubot4> Guest13559: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
<Rocket2DMn> riiiiiiight
<jpds> Rocket2DMn: Err, sorry, my fault.
<Rocket2DMn> lo np, just an extra ubot4 lying around :)
<jpds> Yeah, and I can't seem to kill it.
<jpds> bug 41231
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 41231 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "Nautillus freezes after opening a large sized sub-folder in a folder in the home directory (dup-of: 26198)" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/41231
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 26198 in nautilus (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Nautilus Thumbnail creation freeze system" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26198
<jpds> There we go.
<Rocket2DMn> cool, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> btw, why is it called ubot4 and not ubotu ?
<jpds> Because it's a clone #4 of ubottu.
<Rocket2DMn> ah, i see
<fagan> any docbook people around?
<fagan> I have a little problem
<fagan> mdke: you around?
<fagan> I need to have a < in the text of a doc
<fagan> but it gives out an error
<fagan> because its an unclosed tag not a string which is what I want
<fagan> I think ill check the ascii table
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-17
<corscoest> hello
<corscoest> does anyone here work on the Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<corscoest> I have a really quick question to ask about the published documentation
<corscoest> printed, sorry
<corscoest> If I buy a copy of the printed documentation (http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-10-04-LTS-Server-Guide/dp/1596822058/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295233886&sr=1-8), does part of the profit from that sale go to the Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<corscoest> also, on a non-related note,
<corscoest> all links to (http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/list/?category=Server) on the website (http://webapps.ubuntu.com) should be changed to (http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/search/?search=server), as (http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/list/?category=Server) is a dead link.
<corscoest> well, please, if anyone sees my question and knows the answer, post it; I will check the logs tomorrow.
<corscoest> hello
<corscoest> does anyone here work on the Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<corscoest> I have a really quick question to ask about the printed documentation
<corscoest> If I buy a copy of the printed documentation (http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-10-04-LTS-Server-Guide/dp/1596822058/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295233886&sr=1-8), does part of the profit from that sale go to the Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<corscoest> cmon, why are there so many people idling here?
<corscoest> shoot
 * jasono is away: I'm busy
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-18
 * jasono is back (gone 00:07:59)
 * jasono is away: The Cape
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-20
 * phillw highly embaressing question, but I cannot for the life of me find the upload image function on the new pages, nor does the help page method seem to work for an external image.
<head_victim> phillw: attach file?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-21
<cjohnston> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> cjohnston: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<cjohnston> mdke_: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=diff&rev1=117&rev2=118  - he is at it again
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-22
<wmorri> Hi, I have a question that was posed to me this morning on irc, it has to do with this bug:
<wmorri> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/706221
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 706221 in software-center "calibre : More info - Having a typo ( supports is misspelled as upports) " [Undecided,New]
<Atamira> thanks for that wmorri
<Atamira> someone will fix it when they can
<wmorri> since I am part of the docs group can I fix that or would it be to complicated?
<wmorri> I haven't yet done a lot for the docs group and if it wouldn't be too hard i could work on thi.
<wmorri> this.*
<Atamira> mm..im not the best person to add
<Atamira> ask sorry
<wmorri> that is fine. I will leave that for someone else then
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-23
<Guest4951> Hello, I recently added a couple pages to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported and I am wondering if i did it correctly?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-18
<czajkowski> Darkwing: ping
<Darkwing> czajkowski: pong
<czajkowski> Darkwing: mind if I pm please
<Darkwing> czajkowski: please do
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-14
<j1mc> mdke - you around?
<j1mc> jbicha - you around?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-17
<keisterstash> Hello, I'm a contributor to the netsniff-ng project and I would like to write Ubuntu documentation on it. How do I go about creating a community pages with installation instructions and examples?
<keisterstash> this page isn't really helping me, am i missing something: https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<Atamira> you should email the mailing list
<Atamira> thats your best bet
<Atamira> otherwise you might have to wait a while for a reply to your question
<Atamira> and when i say a while, the last time anything was said in here was....nearly 3 days ago..heh
<Atamira> uh, make that 6-7 days ago
<keisterstash> k thx for the response
<Flannel> keisterstash: The community section is a moin wiki, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpForBeginners will get you started, with https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing helping on actual markup syntax (I'm sure it's linked somewhere in the previous page)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-18
<zequence> What's required in order to edit wiki pages on help.ubuntu.doc? A guy says he can't edit pages using his launchpad account
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-19
<j1mc> mdke: you around?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-20
<head_victim> mdke: I see you're one of the mailing list admins, can you possibly remove the person causing issues at the moment? I don't know who the other mods are so can't ping them.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-13
<KI7MT> dsmythies, You still around ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am around, sort of. Not actually at my desk much right now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I jsut wanted to let you know, I understand now, the diff between yelp-help, yelp-build preview and browser view using help.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im also sending out a summary of the "About" copyright issue, and hope we can get some traction on that situation.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, well I tried to send it out, email being held my mailman because it's over 40kb .. LOL.. I knew I should have bought him an xmas present :-)
<dsmythies> KI7MT; O.K. thanks for the notes. Yes, limit for list e-mail is really small.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Basically, I went through and grabbed the footers of 4 different flavors of "Abouts" that were using, mine included, and asked fer some guidance.
<KI7MT> *we're
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Thanks for looking into it. Hopefully we can make it consistent across the entire document.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, All we really need is somebody to tell us what should be used, then the team make a decision on how to implement it.  The only reason I went to the files themselves, was I was having trouble getting legal.xml to format correctly. That's the best way I think,. one file (;egal.xml), and just add the linky
<KI7MT> *legal.xml
<KI7MT> The if there's any changes needed, just update legal.xml .. and it's changed in all files.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I have that on my list of To-Do's .. fix the accounts files one this is all straightened out.
<KI7MT> *once
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I like one the one change fixes all approach.
<KI7MT> Yeah, that's the best way .. using the xref link to legal.xml
<KI7MT> It's doing the same thing, adding it locally to the file, or calling the link.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, And i also see why you asked about the icon, looking at all the apps in System Settings .. theu all use the same first two lines to open System Setting, only thing is,  it's Unity, should we not be trying to use Dash as much as possible?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I tried to find a default Key-Setting for opening System Settings, but it appears you have to create your one key bindings for that one.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Here I go again... I don't know. I am not actually very experienced at using unity, or even any linux desktop at all. At the root of it, I am a server guy.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, It's the Super Key .. tap it, and dash appears, then type like system and all the apps starting with system appear, That's why I added the little Globe looking Icon, that's the Online Accounts Icon.
<KI7MT> But, now that Ive done that, my files don't look like the others, so I created another deviation, which is not the right way either.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Oh my... Don't get me started on the "SUPER" key. Since I only have a VNC connection for graphical I/F, and for other yet to be solved reasons, the "SUPER" key doesn't work for me.
<dsmythies> drove me nuts late last cycle.
<KI7MT> Yeha, that probably a bit of an issue for you I'd imagine.. lol
<KI7MT> super key is awsome .. if you can master the shortcuts there, Unity is a pretty powerful tool.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Somtimes, VM is not all it's cracked up to be :-)
<KI7MT> This latop is dual boot, I keep the current LTS on one side, that the next LTS on the other, and y work station, al be it, unstable as it is, is native 14.04
<KI7MT> *my
<dsmythies> KI7MT: VM: yes, I am well aware. I seem to have considerable grief with my VMs sometimes.
<dsmythies>  I have to go...
<KI7MT> I use VM's more for servers, Never had allot of luck with DE's
<KI7MT> Ok CU tomorrow.
<dsmythies> bye
<slickymaster> knome: you around and with 1 minute to spare?
<knome> yep
<slickymaster> the last edit page on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Cuda goes back to September, 2012
<slickymaster> would you consider it abandoned?
<knome> i'd mark it for deletion
<slickymaster> I'm asking because in what CUDA is concerned I'm completly in the dark
<knome> me too
<slickymaster> lool
<slickymaster> lol
<slickymaster> knome, I've marked https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Cuda as a candidate for deletion by adding <<Include(Tag/Deletion)>> to it
<phillw> knome: can you ask slickymaster to contact https://launchpad.net/~amrith92 and ask his views on support? I use the edit history to try and get a response from the last couple of editors.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, You around today ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am around now. I'll be working on the Serverguide for maybe the next hour or two.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ahh ok .. Are you the only one working the server guide?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Right now I'm not sure. Peter Matulis (the proejct driver) has signed up to review several sections, but I'm not sure where he is with those.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, is there a spreadsheet for the server guide like there is for Desktop or how are you tracking items ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Serverguide tracking is done right on the serverguide "getting started" page. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide . I'll edit that page shortly, but I am going to do a couple of bug reports just now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, don't let me interrupt you .. was just curious.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. The bug reports are trivial, so I have capacity for divertions.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I seen that matric before, I like that format, was thinking on doing AppArmor and phpMadmin until I saw it was all DocBook .. DB makes my head hurt
<KI7MT> *matrix
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I struggle with DocBook, but just use whatever was done before an an example.
<KI7MT> OpenVPN was another one that needs re-worked, I get allot of quesitons in Ubuntu IRC abotu that one.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Any serverguide help would be greatly appreciated. By far, I am not a subject matter expert in a great many areas of server.
<KI7MT> I'll see if I can get something done .. Im on this Security and Privacy stuff for Desktop, and I made of list of things needing fixed on the accounts stuff I did.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: but I don't want to distract you from your DeskTop conributions either.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, got your email .. I like the Ubuntu Docs Team thing too .. I'll have to look, or maybe godbyk can let us know, I think ubuntu-manual copyrights that way too, Ubuntu Docs Team.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im going back to the legal.xml method ..  we need to know what to do about the personal copyright pages.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Give the doc list time to chime in on the subject. It's a global list, and many are asleep right now.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, yeah, Im in no hurry plenty of other things going on.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Actually, I think I have a solution that may please both sides of the fence on the Author / Editor thing. Need to test it first though.
<dsmythies> eagles0513875: Here on IRC, a couple of months ago, plus or minus, you were mentioning something about an issue with samba. I wasn't on IRC at the time. Did you ever file a bug report about your issue?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Who's thr driver for Desktop Help 14.04
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I gonna write a bug for the accounts stuff, will assign to myself, but want to make it clear what needs doing.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: A bug report is always a good idea.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I need input on the Security & Privacy stuff anyway ..
<dsmythies> KI7MT: DeskTop drivers for 14.04 would be the doc e-mail list, I suppose. And of the all the Doc committers: godbyk, bkerensa, "little girl", and myself work on, and I suppose help to drive, the DeskTop doc.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, I thought there was normally a driver for each release cycle.
<dsmythies> Oh
<KI7MT> dsmythies, while Im editing these files again, wht do you thing about using the Start for Important  items
<KI7MT> *Star
<KI7MT> dsmythies, never mind, it's not in the figers/folder ..
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-14
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Those icons are auto pulled by the build process (for the html), and ultimatley end up in the same directory as the html. They are called by the .css file. Otherwise the help system knows where to find them...
<KI7MT> dsmythies, yes I saw that, Im not gonna mess with them, just Important Icon should be different than the Info Icon "i"
<dsmythies> KI7MT: currently there appears to be regular "notes" exceed "important" notes by a factor of 5. (Roughly 51 normal and 10 important, on a lsightly out of date count.)
<dsmythies> Ki7MT: the info icon is a different story.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I think that's a product of using <note style="tip"> the wrong way .. e,g, not using  <note style="important"> enough
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes. I was referring to regular note Vs. important note.
<KI7MT> Yeah, we need Wiki guidance on that too.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, there's like what, 4 regularly use item, Tip/Info .. Caution, Warning, Important .. we need use cases and properly setup CSS
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Also, while I am here, what should I do about the "personal copyright" pages, leve them be or add the legal.xml to them.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of 4: Tip Info Warning and Important. I am not aware of Caution. The .css is a compiled file, and in this regard is O.K. (as far as I know).
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Copyright: I am not following. Didn't we decide to wait a bit for the doc list e-mail thread.?
<KI7MT> Item #4 on the email I sent out.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, but we need to wait at least enough time for people that are currently asleep to have an opportunity to chime in.
<KI7MT> Ok so I'll just them inplace then, and revert the ones I added <license> tags too v.s. legal.xml
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Re: note styles. Your were looking at things like <note style="important">. I was just looking at the .png files and assuming the mapping was what was logical and would make sense...
<dsmythies> KI7MT: However the mapping is illogical, and in my mind, wrong...
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Write a Bug so we cna fix it.
<KI7MT> *can
<KI7MT> dsmythies, the .png files don't really mean anything with the code behind it to render them properly.
<dsmythies> note style tip maps to the blue circle with the "i" (which I guess you knew, but I didn't)
<KI7MT> I know
<dsmythies> note style info maps to the little yellow rectangle with the pin in it.
<dsmythies> important to the satr (which is right)
<dsmythies> important to the star (which is right)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, and that particular Icon, is, by system default standards, an "Info" icon.
<dsmythies> wanring to the warning thingy (which is right)
<dsmythies> which "particular Icon"?
<KI7MT> "i"
<KI7MT> style="tip"
<KI7MT> that icon is system Info Icon
<KI7MT> so I guess "tip" and "info" be seen as same thing.
<dsmythies> O.K. I'm confused. Do you agree there is a mapping error or no?
<KI7MT> what file you looking at?
<knome> fwiw, in the xubuntu documentation, note/tip are both mapped to (i), caution/important to (!)
<dsmythies> I grepped for "<note" and then for each hit, I opened the file with the help system to observe.
<dsmythies> knome: thanks.
<knome> we still keep on using them separately, since it's possible we want to change the icon for either later
<knome> not likely, but want to make sure it's possible without headache and tears
<KI7MT> dsmythies, what file you looking at for the mapping?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I was just looking at source and final display. The actual mapping file will be buried somewhere, probably in yelp-tools. I didn't even start to look into that yet.
<dsmythies> knome: thanks again.
<KI7MT> Anyway, I need to finish the bug .. YELP_HELP_INIT .. not found that yet ..  want to look at that.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I'm about to send up the mods for lp:1268775
<KI7MT> dsmythies, How did you determine which server pkg's were a priority for this cycle?
<KI7MT> where everyone .. way too quiet in here :-)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Just curious, why is the 10.04 Server guide still up and running online? would it not make sense to re-direct that to 12.04 Server ? Allot of the server bugs are against 10.04 ..
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Peter Matulis determined the priorities for the server guide for this cycle. Typically, the ones that nobody got to for awhile are highlighted. You can make other lines higlighted priorities, if you want. I did for 11.1 when we realized that config files now need to have a .conf extention, for example.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ok .. sounds good Looks like we are getting some traction on the coyright issue, getting some feedback now.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: 10.04 is an LTS release, and has not reached EOL yet.
<KI7MT> Oh.. yeah, on the server hasn't EOL yet, DE has.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: serverguide is switching to LTS only as of 14.04
<dsmythies> KI7MT: 13.04 is EOL at end Jan. On or about Feb 1st, it will be deleted from help.ubuntu.com
<KI7MT> dsm found a Bug in the HTML Makefile for .. ui:expand  .. I'll write it up and fix it, affets 3 or 4 files, and will also send a note to ubuntu-docs
<KI7MT> dsmythies, that was fer you
<dsmythies> KI7MT: for serverguide I never backport. Peter tries to.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, servers, in my opinion, should not be cutting edge, the should be industrial stable :-)
<dsmythies> hecne why we are going to lts only serverguide
<dsmythies> the other reason is that we simply can not maintain the old versions that are still active.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, that + you dont have snough resoureces to write it up every six mos.
<KI7MT> *enough
<dsmythies> KI7MT: bug in Makefile: Hey great it has been figured out.
<KI7MT> No, not all fo them fixed yet, jsut the Deprecated ui:expand URL .. still workign on the other three errors.
<dsmythies> Sorry, that is what I meant.
<KI7MT> :-) it's all good. one down, three to go :-0
<KI7MT> Im getting Unmatched block error, neams an open block somewhere, that's not gonna be easy to fix.
<KI7MT> this is not on my code, jsut HTML build in general.
<dsmythies> I can not catch up just now, it'll have to be tomorrow sometimes.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, you have more MP's to review.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I saw, but they have to wait also, unless another does them.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Where are all the commiters ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: "little girl" did say she would be absent for chunks of time. I guess this is one of those times. When she is here things really happen.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, yeah, cuz seems you got alloy going on.
<KI7MT> *allot
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am absent for chunks of time on occasion also.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I missed the entire 12.04 cycle.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I meant tosay 12.10 cycle
<KI7MT> well when I get up to speed, I can help out, been doing this stuff for a long time, just not with thos Distributed + Gatekeeper setup.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Generally, I dont spend allot of energy on the intermediate releases. LTS to LTS is my main thing.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im wonderign whey nobody else is moaning about the ui:depricated errors .. I checked on 3 branch pulls, fails on all three.
<godbyk> KI7MT: I merged your UI fixes. I think that the experimental UI spec URI used to be valid but no longer is. So it may not have yelled at us last cycle.
<KI7MT> godbyk, Yes, I suspect so, somwhere along the line, he moved it to an active url .. was easy fix
<godbyk> I also looked at Doug's bug about copying files from the wrong location. It seems a bit more involved, though, and I haven't stumbled across the right answer yet.
<godbyk> I'm slowly working through my inbox. :-)
<KI7MT> godbyk, But I'm stumped on the Makefile cp issue . Im not a sed guru unfortunately.
<KI7MT> godbyk, There is also a file or 2 that have open section tags some  where  .. that's a needle ins a stack of needles to find :-)
<godbyk> I understand the sed command.. but the sed command itself doesn't try to copy anything.
<godbyk> The copying happens within the yelp-build shell script.
<godbyk> And that shell script isn't documented very well.
<KI7MT> where is the script ?
<godbyk> It involves taking each .page file and running a huge xslt script against it to extract the files it wants to copy and then tries to copy them.
<godbyk> Run 'which yelp-build' to find it. :)
<KI7MT> I know where that is, and the xsl .. and yes, there's allot to that file.
<godbyk> The failed cp commands happen on line 471 of the yelp-build script.
<godbyk> Not all the copies fail.. most of them work fine. Just the files that GNOME uses but we don't.. those are the ones that fail.
<KI7MT> Im looking at yelp-build .. how did you find out it was line 471 failing?
<godbyk> Well, I searched for the cp commands in that file and picked the one that made the most sense..
<godbyk> Then I added an echo line above it to check my suspicions.
<KI7MT> ahh ok
<KI7MT> I can do a good bit of bash, but that script is a bit beyond my ability  ..
<godbyk> The bash aspects of that script aren't too bad.
<godbyk> The problem is the huge xslt stuff they've just pasted in the middle everywhere.
<KI7MT> yeah, there's a good bit of that in there too .. it's hard to keep track of all this xsl stuff.
<KI7MT> godbyk, While youe here, what is the code for assigning a bug to wiki instead of ubundu-docs ?
<godbyk> KI7MT: As far as I know, the wiki stuff falls under the ubuntu-docs project as well.
<godbyk> (Though I sometimes wish there were a separate project for that.)
<KI7MT> Yeah, there's loads of bugs for the wiki's .. I wsa tols the other day, can't remember by whom, no to write bugs for the wiki's and help.ubuntu.com
<KI7MT> *was told
<godbyk> In my mind, it's often silly to file a bug report against the wiki when you could just fix it directly.
<godbyk> But not everyone reading the wiki has the knowledge to fix the bugs.
<godbyk> Oftentimes it's someone trying to use the wiki to solve a problem or learn how to do something. When things don't work out well, or the instructions lead them astray, their only real recourse is to file a bug and hope someone fixes it.
<KI7MT> Yes, and some folks, like me, were taught to work tasks form bugs reports :-)
<KI7MT> godbyk, Im very interested in making sure help.ubuntu.com is correct, as that's my got site for Ubuntu Support IRC .. I send folks to pages there allot, and it annoys me to send them to a non-ubuntu site for a ubuntu issue.
<KI7MT> *go too.
<godbyk> What would be nice is if people interested in or working on particular projects would monitor the wiki pages referencing those projects and keep them up to date and accurate.
<godbyk> I agree. I think that lousy documentation leads to a negative user experience and we want to avoid those whenever possible.
<KI7MT> godbyk, There's too many go too places, we have Wiki, Help, Ask, >. which is the master .. to many sites to watch. not enough automation.
<dsmythies> The reason you typically should not file a bug against help.ubuntuc.com is because that is not where the master files are. The master files are in serverguide and desktop help projects
<godbyk> dsmythies: I assumed he was talking about filing bugs against the wiki at h.u.c, not against the system docs or server guide.
<dsmythies> Peter M. has been setting bugs against wiki to INVALID. I do not think that is correct action.
<KI7MT> Oh and I forgot, then there's the Forums, which, is a great place for info, lots of realyl smart folsk in there writing how-too's
<dsmythies> godbyk: Oh.
<godbyk> KI7MT: That's true and I can understand how that could cause confusionâespecially when not all of the docs are up to date. But I think that different forms of documentation have different uses, all of which are valid.
<KI7MT> Yes, I was .. there's bugs filed again wiki issues, then assigned to ubuntu-docs ..
<KI7MT> godbyk, indeed, it's jsut hard to keep them all in sync, and ot kno where to send folks as the go too place.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I think that ubuntu-docs bugs should be about bugs in the *documentation*. Unfortunately, it seems to be a catchall for 'something is wrong and I don't know who to complain to'.
<KI7MT> heck even ubutto has bad data .. lol ..
<dsmythies> Oh my, e-mail in box has lots of stuff...
<dsmythies> godbyk: Agreed.
<KI7MT> godbyk, I agredd . ubuntu-docs ==> Desktop Help Bugs .. wiki bugs, against the wiki
<godbyk> dsmythies: Tell me about it! :-)  You guys and your bug reports and merge proposals have filled mine up the past week. I'm trying to get through the backlog now. :)
<KI7MT> AND .. we need a way to filter against the release, not being funny, but an issue in 13.04 does interest me, it's EOL
<dsmythies> godbyk: fair enough. Aren't you two times zone ahead of me? I.E. isn't it late for you?
<KI7MT> adn 13.10 is EOL in what July I think ?
<dsmythies> Typically, most bugs carry forward. Of course some not.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, godbyk is looking at that cp stat error .. I could not figure it out. even asked in SED gnome and gnome-docs .. nil everywehre.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I'm in US/Central.. it's 1:17 a.m. here.
 * godbyk is a night owl.
<dsmythies> There are two type of copy errors. I saw your discussion above.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Well, we're still interested in old bugs that haven't been fixed yet and still exist in 14.04.
<KI7MT> If they exist .. but if there no longer valid for the next release, and the release they were written against is EOL, shoudl they not be closed?
<godbyk> dsmythies: What are the two types?  You mean the (1) missing figures/blah file and (2) /usr/share/blah/blah that gets prepended with the local dir?
<godbyk> KI7MT: Unless we're up for releasing updates, yeah. I don't know what the procedures and policies are for that, though.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Yes, I think so, I actually need to review, but cann't get it it until at least tomorrow.
<KI7MT> godbyk, I dont thing there's enough man-/-girl power to do updates too.
<KI7MT> what's with these other two MP's they been there for a while now
<godbyk> KI7MT: You're probably right.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Usually I get to MPs more quickly, but I've been on vacation for a bit. I just got back this past week and have been getting caught up on housework and the like.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Also, I'd say that smaller MPs get processed a lot more quickly.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of one old one for DeskTop and one old one for Serverguide. Is that what you are referring to?
<godbyk> If I can glance at a diff and immediately see what it's doing and that it doesn't break anything, it's easy for me to accept it.
<godbyk> If it's a huge diff, it takes me longer to test it and read through everything.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes I think your right maybe they got updated .. maybe I just been looking at that page too much . LOL
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not have the ability to test the DeskTop one. Peter was looking at Serverguide one, and it os now stale. I'll kick the serverguide one. I hate MP sitting around forever.
<KI7MT> ALl I know is there's allot of work to do .. lots of clean up stuff., and lots of validation.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: last cycle, I cleaned up all old (some very very old) Serverguide MP's.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh the hinbernate one, that's not a good one to enable actually, but the docs should be available .. hibernate is less that 50.50 to work on all HW.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Yeah, that's why I haven't touched the hibernate one.
<godbyk> Well, a couple reasons:
<godbyk> 1. I don't like having to tell people to type cryptic commands into a terminal.
<godbyk> 2. I'm not sure that's the best solution. It seems more like a software bug than a documentation bug.
<godbyk> If a feature isn't exposed by the software, it shouldn't be our job to provide cryptic workarounds.
<KI7MT> I look at it this way, if it's Grey'ed out by the Developers, probably a good reason for that :-)
<godbyk> We should document the software as it exists today.
<KI7MT> I agree .. there's enough to do with that, let alone adding to the pile.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I was thinking similar. That bug report went on and on and on, and I never really understood doc involvment or requirement.
<KI7MT> that's becasue they want the feature, but there's not official workaround, so they work it from other angles .. lol
<KI7MT> You shoud sit a watch Ubuntu IRC for a while .. OMG . some of the things they do to try and circumvent things is amazing :-)
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, for the longest time I couldn't figure out how docs figured into that bug either. I had to reread their messages a few times to see what was going on.
<KI7MT> Ubuntu-Docs doesn't really .. Hibernate is not a Application Support feature.
<godbyk> If that bug is still open when I get that far down my inbox, I'll add a note to this effect and move it off of our plate.
<KI7MT> I gotta get back into Bug Control .. makes that stuff easy then.
<KI7MT> but being in bug-squad can change priority and things.
<KI7MT> In all actuality, the bug "I think" should be against upower not ubuntu-docs to document the hack.
<godbyk> This MP has been handled already, right? https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/accounts-files-patch/+merge/201182
<godbyk> (It says it's been merged, but from the comments, I'm not sure if it's completely settled or not.)
<KI7MT> Yes it has.
<godbyk> Okay, cool. I get to move another email out of my inbox. \o/
<KI7MT> I did one MP, screwed it up, did another MP and had to push an update to that one .. and it still ahd issues, whihc are now fixed :-)
<KI7MT> godbyk, YOu on that last email to gunnar .. we need a full aduit, and we need to use Dash >> Some Applicaiton .. where ever possible I think
<KI7MT> *You right .. .. .
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
<KI7MT> There is allot of hold over form point and clickv..
<KI7MT> from point and click ..
<godbyk> I'd say that for some items where there are direct menus that we can use (e.g., the indicator menus), it's faster to use those than to search in the Dash and then hope it shows the results we expect.
<godbyk> The results that the Dash shows are dependent on what applications a person has installed, which applications are used most frequently or more recently, etc.
<godbyk> So it's rather nondeterministic from a documentation point of view.
<KI7MT> Yeah those on the Top-Bar, yeah, those ore easy P&C ..
<KI7MT> But what is that Bar called, and si everyone using the same name for it?
<godbyk> That's one of the questions I'd like to get settled for 14.04.
<KI7MT> gnome docs calling the Activity Bar now I think
<KI7MT> and its labeled as such, can't miss it.. lol
<godbyk> Yeah, it's not called that in Unity.
<KI7MT> In the gnome style guide, i'll go find it again, they took a pic and labeled everything  for docs.
<godbyk> Yeah, I pestered mpt about this a while back.
<godbyk> At the time, he said the top bar is called the menu bar.
<godbyk> The menu bar contains the window title, window menus, application status menus, and system status menus.
<godbyk> I don't know, however, if that is still the preferred terminology or not.
<KI7MT> I dont know, that's just it .. when Unity hot the street is when this should have been hashed out.
<godbyk> Agreed.
<godbyk> There's inconsistencies throughout the UI and various docs projects, too.
<godbyk> I'd like to get everyone on the same page.
<godbyk> Establish a canonical list of terminology (along with spelling, capitalization, etc.).
<godbyk> Then we can file bugs and patches to fix things in the docs and UI to bring about some consistency.
<KI7MT> akaq Terms: https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/stable/gnome-glossary-desktop.html.en
<godbyk> Yeah, the Ubuntu docs style guide references that, too, I think.. but some terms differ and may even be out of date for GNOME.
<godbyk> For example, menubar is now spelled as two words: menu bar.
<KI7MT> We just need to make it for Ubuntu.
<godbyk> Well, we have one.. though it's out of date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/StandardTerminology
<KI7MT> Actually, on my laptop here, Im using gnome 3.1 it's actually very nice to use.
<KI7MT> Yes, the split from gnome to Unity .. allot of things need goign over form the beginning I think .. we'll get there eventually .. lol
<KI7MT> I like Evolution mail better that TBird also, TBird address book is terrible I think
<KI7MT> Doesn't KDE have their own Sites now ?
<godbyk> I think they do.
<KI7MT> Yeah, pretty Blue one's I think.
<KI7MT> Thats the best part about KDE, the color, but that's where it ends for me .. LOL
<KI7MT> Although, this QtRazor rumor is a bit worrying ..
 * dsmythies not a night owl... guys, back tomorrow
<KI7MT> cul dsmythies
<godbyk> G'night, dsmythies!
 * godbyk is going to tackle this hibernate MP+bug now...
<KI7MT> Ok I'll be round for a while yet.
<KI7MT> godbyk, We sould sure use one of these, tailored for Desktop Help: http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/files/2012/01/mallardcheatsheet.png
<godbyk> Nice find!
<KI7MT> I don't know Mallard well enough yet, but  I been keeping notes
<godbyk> Okay, here are the comments I added to the bug and MP: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1232814/comments/59
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1232814 in indicator-session (Ubuntu) "Hibernate option is missing from menu in 13.10 even after trying to re-enable" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<godbyk> We'll see how much flak I get for them. :)
<KI7MT> LOL
<KI7MT> I think that's the right answer, while the patch may work, it's outside the scope of sys-docs to engineer workarounds.
<godbyk> I also feel uncomfortable instructing readers to type long commands into the terminal.
<KI7MT> We need to get all the writing on one style .. be it XML, plain txt .. something ..
<godbyk> Who is 'we'?
<KI7MT> long commands, new users, I normally see them in Ubuntu IRC shortly after .. LOL
<KI7MT> we  being all the doc teams  we :-)
<godbyk> You mean between desktop docs and server guide, for instance?
<KI7MT> server on DockBook, Desktop on Mallard, Ubuntu-Man on L aTeX .. Im not sure what the flavors are on right now.
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> Well, those markup languages are all geared toward different end products.
<godbyk> Mallard is good for short bits of online help,
<KI7MT> Mallard, :-)
<godbyk> LaTeX is good for generated printed material (and PDFs),
<godbyk> Docbook kind of tries to be all things to all people.. but it can generate html and PDFs and the like.
<KI7MT> Asciidoc :-)
<godbyk> I wouldn't use Mallard to write a book, for instance.
<godbyk> Docbook can generate PDFs, but I don't think they look very good and it doesn't have very much typographic control as far as I can tell.
<godbyk> asciidoc is like the lowest common denominator which means it's bad at everything. :-)
<KI7MT> what's your email you use normlay or prefer, I'll share a UIbuntu One folder with real quick.
<KI7MT> Ubuntu One
<godbyk> I use godbyk@gmail.com for Ubuntu One.
<KI7MT> see if you can DL this: http://ubuntuone.com/5MVA3ylPXyuJWQOi9W2tpO
<godbyk> Yep
<KI7MT> You need to extract it fist then run the HTML
<godbyk> Which html file should I open?
<KI7MT> Any of them, is three diff TOC's
<KI7MT> ot TOC type.
<KI7MT> the author of the application is a Nobel prize guy in Astro Physics or something like that, Joe, K1JT
<KI7MT> Anyway, I wrote up his manual using Asciidoc in about two days.
<godbyk> cool
<KI7MT> the source directory is the raw input
<KI7MT> one line command to generate the pages.
<KI7MT> Point is, Im not say Asciidoc is the best, but something like is it what we need, plain test front end, multiple back-ends.
<KI7MT> plain text
<godbyk> The problem is that the plain text frontend isn't expressive enough.
<KI7MT> Ascidoc does text in, DocBook Back end, LaTex baxkend, epub, all sorts.
<KI7MT> expressive ?
<godbyk> Can asciidoc handle Mallard <link> tags, for instance?
<godbyk> Or its <info> tags?
<godbyk> Basically, with plain text, you lose the structure.
<godbyk> And asciidoc is still a markup language.. it's just different than XML or LaTeX or Docbook.
<KI7MT> Yes, Shaun said it works with Malllard, he tried it .. either  Ascidoc, or Asci-Doctor (Ruby Gem Version)
<KI7MT> I'd have to ask him which again.
<KI7MT> I think ascii-doctor it was .. not sure .. Ascii-Doctor is a Ruby Gem Port of Asciidoc.
<godbyk> How do you mark something as being a GUI element in asciidoc?
<godbyk> Does it have any sort of semantic markup?
<KI7MT> LOL .. I dont know, .. I dont know how to do it in Mallard either .. LOL
<godbyk> In Mallard, I think you just write <gui>menu item</gui>.
<KI7MT> I think that is all in what they call the back-end, or the Style sheet.
<godbyk> Then you can use the style sheet to tell the viewer how to display GUI elements. You can make them bold or italics or a different color or whatever.
<KI7MT> Yes
<KI7MT> there's two docsuments ya gotta edit for cumstomization, CSS and an xsl sheet I think.
<godbyk> Yeah, depending on what you want to customize.
<KI7MT> but from a user standing point, to start a list, I just put a *  to have a Level 2 heading start it with == Some Level Two heading Here
<godbyk> Yeah.
<KI7MT> Look in the source directory,  that shoes the makrkup I did/
<godbyk> For LaTeX, I'd just write \chapter{...} or \section{...} for the headings.
<KI7MT> shows
<godbyk> See, for example, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/trusty/view/head:/software-management/updates-and-upgrades.tex
<KI7MT> I tried to follow  a bot of LaTeX before. Ipersonally, did not think it was too harsh .. but new writers, those new to linux, DocBook and LaTex is like pluto.
<KI7MT> *a bot of LaTeX
<KI7MT> LOL bIt
<godbyk> Yeah, there is a bit of a learning curveâespecially if you want to do something other than the defaults.
<godbyk> But I think that's true for most markup languages.
<KI7MT> Pretty much ..
<KI7MT> this is an href - {wsjtx}  this is a marker/shortcut [[X7]]
<KI7MT> Note with the icon I want: [icon="./images/icons/example.png"]
<KI7MT> [note] standard not icon
<KI7MT> Everything has a learning curve for sure.
<KI7MT> But, the thing is, with a test input font-end, of whatever kind, that allows allot more people to participate.
<godbyk> Well, unless the original source files migrate to that frontend, I don't think it'd work.
<godbyk> And if the end result is to be Mallard (for example), why not just start there to begin with?
<KI7MT> The first thing you see wiht Desktop and Server guide is, got create some crazy PGP /SSH stuff .. sure is easy for you and me, but probably not to a Windows guy.
<godbyk> Then you have all the power of Mallard at your fingertips instead of the watered-down version you'd get via asciidoc or another frontend/translator.
<godbyk> Well, sort of.
<godbyk> There are more options and we should make those clear if they're not.
<godbyk> For example, people can report bugs and let others deal with the markup.
<godbyk> Or email the list.
<KI7MT> Yeah, I agree for those that can handle the Markup of Mallard, definitely best way to go.
<godbyk> They don't need to create a Launchpad account, learn bzr, Mallard, etc., necessarily.
<KI7MT> We need to tell them that though
<godbyk> I agree.
<godbyk> We only started writing/updating the 'how to be an ubuntu-docs contributor' documentation last cycle.
<godbyk> And what we've written so far is just to cover what we had to learn ourselves to get up and running.
<KI7MT> Here's what ya get for getting started: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<godbyk> As we move forward, we can start expanding the team docs to encompass other ways of contributing.
<KI7MT> That's what's what I talking about .. BZR, SSH, PGP.. all scare words to allot of folks not familiar with them
<KI7MT> That's why I linke the ubuntu-manual model, writers and editors ..
<godbyk> Well, we could do that for the ubuntu-docs team, too, if we have enough people.
<KI7MT> Maybe it's just a slow time for Doks right now, but, not allot of MP's hitting launchpad.
<KI7MT> *for Docks
<godbyk> But the authors and editors on the manual team write LaTeX directly, generally.
<KI7MT> Yeah, thing is, why no people?
<godbyk> Well, part of that is because we're kind of in between cycles. Not enough has been finished in 14.04 to document yet.
<godbyk> As to the lack of volunteers, I think there are a few reasons for that:
<godbyk> Historically, people who approached the docs team asking how they could help would be thrust into the world of Docbook/Mallard/bzr/Launchpad/etc.
<godbyk> The barrier to entry was just too high, and so they gave up and left.
<godbyk> The docs team wasn't very communicative with the rest of the community, either.
<godbyk> So we didn't even know the team was completely dead until late in the 13.04 cycle.
<godbyk> So for 13.04 and 13.10, we were just trying to get things minimally updated and pushed out the door.
<godbyk> Now that we're starting to get our legs under us, we'll work in finding more volunteers to help out.
<KI7MT> Oh .. I didn't know that ..
<KI7MT> well .. I just jumped in .. should have read more, should have done allot of things different, but that the way I am,  go get it done, fix it and move on :-)
<KI7MT> But not everyone is like that.
<KI7MT> I learned a long time ago, dont know who said it originally, but if your not breaking something, your not trying hard enough :-)
<godbyk> I tell that to the students I work with, too. :)
<KI7MT> Not being funny, but, it's documentation, if we break the build, the box still gonna work, and we cna fix what we broke.
<KI7MT> Things like Kernels and Vid Drivers etc, may want to be a bot more careful :-)
<KI7MT> *bit
<godbyk> Yeah.
<KI7MT> I had no idea the team fell apart in 13.04 - 13.10 .. I spent allot more energy on LTS builds normally.
<godbyk> Yeah, the final docs team member mentioned that he was the last one standing during the 13.04 cycle.
<godbyk> Doug and Ben and I stepped in to try to get the docs out for 13.04.
<KI7MT> Like right now there's 36 folks in this room .. and probably less that 10 have chatted over the last 24hrs.
<godbyk> And then we tried to update some things for 13.10, but only got so far along before we ran out of time.
<KI7MT> yeah, there's only so much you can do when it's crunch time.
<KI7MT> Dont think this one gonna be fixed, Jocky has gone away: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/409338
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 409338 in Ubuntu Documentation "Change the name of "Hardware drivers"" [Undecided,New]
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> Let's see what the current docs say..
<KI7MT> Mine says Additional Drivers, but Im on 12.04.4
<godbyk> Looks like it mentions the Additional Drivers tab on only one page.
<godbyk> I don't see the 'hardware drivers' app mentioned any longer in the docs, so I'll close this bug.
<KI7MT> Yup
<KI7MT> there's also so clever code going on in the background, your box needs these drivers, that thing shows up, if ya dont, it wont.
<KI7MT> *if your box .. .. ..
<godbyk> it's timing out when I try to mark the bug fixed. Guess I'll have to try again in a bit.
<KI7MT> I need to get back into bug control .. im only in Bug Squad right now.
<godbyk> Maybe you can answer a question for me..
<godbyk> We get a decent number of bugs filed under the docs project that don't belong there.
<godbyk> Sometimes I know where they should go and redirect them..
<godbyk> but sometimes I don't.
<godbyk> Is there a general catchall I can put them under so someone smarter than I can triage them?
<godbyk> (finally got that bug marked as 'fix released', btw.)
<KI7MT> Im not sure .. I used to use just ubuntu  but it's been a long time since I could triage bugs or disposition them.
<KI7MT> You can select the more / advanced options ans do some searching .. but there's hundreds of tags available.
<KI7MT> this one 6 months old: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1194589
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1194589 in Ubuntu Documentation "Firefox gave an Untrusted Site Warning for two separate Community Ubuntu Documentation Sites." [Undecided,New]
<godbyk> I'll flag that one as incomplete. I don't see any errors when I visit the docs sites with Firefox.
<KI7MT> I didn't either.
<KI7MT> I talks wiht Doug briefly about this one, Windows Live still a viable entity:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<godbyk> Wikipedia says Windows Live was closed down in April 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live
<KI7MT> mHmmm
<godbyk> What's more important, however, is what it's called in the Ubuntu UI.
<godbyk> For 13.10, it has "Windows Live" as a type of online account I can add.
<godbyk> I'm not sure what it'll say for 14.04 yet.
<KI7MT> I did not change the reference in the Online Accounts docs, left it as Windows Live .. but that may be wrong.
<KI7MT> godbyk, I asked in Bugs about a default bug bucket, and they said we should not put anything if we don't know .. but I don't think LP will allow us to leave the Tag null.
<godbyk> I don't know if I can remove a bug's association with the ubuntu-docs project without assigning it to a different project.
<godbyk> I think I tried that once and it didn't work.
<KI7MT> Yeah, think I did to, but if shouted at me for it.
<KI7MT> *it
<KI7MT> godbyk, Here we go: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags#Generic_bug_tags
<godbyk> I don't want tags, though.
<KI7MT> what bug you looking at?
<godbyk> I want to know what project or package to assign the bug to.
<godbyk> Well, let's pretend that this bug doesn't belong to ubuntu-docs, for instance: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<godbyk> (It does, but we can look at it..)
<godbyk> When I click the edit link for Ubuntu Documentation, I have to give it another project/package in its place.
<KI7MT> I use the hour-glass to search for it based on the bugs write.
<KI7MT> Using the Tags should, put it with the right project .. and if you get the right one, the correct package too. In the real world, that id the submitters responsibility.
<KI7MT> But the Triage team has to check all that based on the reports sent in.
<godbyk> Well, it's nearly 4 a.m. here. I need to get some sleep.
<KI7MT> Yeah, me too .. CU tomorrow
<godbyk> G'night, KI7MT!
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Are you working on bug lp:1269100 or do you want us to work it?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I only added your name for your potential interest, and since it relates to, and is follow up from, our IRC conversation yesterday. I'll do it, eventually.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: However, take it if you want it.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, yeah I can work it, shouldn't take too long. One of the files has that personal copyright thing on it though.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. thanks very much. I am trying to get some serverguide stuff done. While minor, it keeps slipping and slipping and...
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yup. no problem, will submit it later this afternoon.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, done with the edit, could only do minor things on the wacom pages, as I don't have that tablet.
<KI7MT> Who writes the installation guide listed here: https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/installation-guide/index.html
<godbyk> No one.
<godbyk> I think it's effectively dead.
<KI7MT> godbyk, GA .. another question for you .. Nautilus or Files .. the install package, 14.04 is 3.8.2 .. but when I look at the about information, it's name if Files ?
<godbyk> Yeah, it's called Files now.
<KI7MT> godbyk, Ok, jst needed to make sure I had that correct.
<godbyk> np
<dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk; Yes, someone picked up the work on the installation guide late last cycle. He missed the deadline for including the updates.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Oh, did someone pick up the installation guide? Excellent! I must've missed that.
<dsmythies> I guess I better check about progess for this cycle.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Yes.
<godbyk> I'm currently reading through the hibernation thread on the tech board mailing list. So far I'm not seeing anything that convinces me to change my view on the docs patch.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Last night I forgot to warn you that KI7MT doesn't sleep.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I'm starting to realize that! :)
<dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: Installation guide missed deadline due to floods in Colorado. Understandably, the person was unable to do ubuntu stuff for awhile.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, ahh i see . was just curious as I don't recall seeing that format before
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, yeah.. I remember something about that now.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: What you see is my crude hack job at trying to eliminate, or at least reduce, all the errors due to the old theme.
<KI7MT> dsmythies,  I see, I have not been not been on the 13.10 much.
<KI7MT> 13.10 pages .. .
<dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: For your possible interest: https://code.launchpad.net/~qbalazs/installation-guide/trunk/+merge/190783 (i'll ping him also)
<godbyk> dsmythies: Thanks. The installation guide uses docbook, right?
<KI7MT> godbyk, I think I opened pandoras box .. documents-x.page files and files-x.page files .. wow  that's allot of work.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Ugh... Ugh... I forget. ... Yes, it looks DocBook ish to me. I'll be forced to remember better when I have to build it again.
<KI7MT> Bad thing is, documents-x.page files nto on the excell spreadsheet ..
<KI7MT> So we just add them in a needed ?
<KI7MT> *as
<dsmythies> yes, just add them
<KI7MT> ok
<KI7MT> There's only 16 of them .. LOL
<KI7MT> 13 w/o the stubs though ..
<KI7MT> 12 .. there's 3 stubbies :-)
<KI7MT> *4
<dsmythies> KI7MT: my 14.04 DeskTop VM is on the fritz again. There will be a delay before I can look at your MP.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, There's no hurry .. I have plenty of other things to work on.
<belkinsa> jono, can I PM you about something?
<jono> belkinsa, sure
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I see other issues in the mapping of spreadsheet files to actual .page files. Am soring it out.
<dsmythies> *sorting
<KI7MT> dsmythies,sri, im not following  what your saying, whats the issue?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: There are some .page files that exist that are not on the spreadsheet (more than you just found). There are some files listed in the spreadsheet that do not actually exist.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh yes, many more .. and allog of .stub files in the /C that dont need to be there, was going to propose we move them to /C/templates as I gave an idea or two on how we could use that setup./
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Im on my phone and fat fingers not typing too well .. lol
<dsmythies> KI7MT: gobbyk knows about the .stub files and why they are there and such. Myself, I forget what Kevin said about them, last cycle when I asked.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I know what they are for when using the gnome system of tags and yelp to create templates.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, But if we're not using that system it's just cluttering up the source tree.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, We have /C/Templates/games :-) .. not sure that's being using, but it could  as there's solitaire installed by default I think.,
<godbyk> The stub files are just unfinished page files.
<godbyk> Page files that someone started or thought might be needed but didn't actually finish writing.
<KI7MT> Yeah, there are allof of them, like 50+ or so, and allot of old dates, 2012 ish ,, was gonna propose we move them into /C/templates
<godbyk> I wouldn't put them in templates as they're not templates.
<KI7MT> Ok,  good point, I started playing wiht Shaun's cheatsheet, making  pages for those as a quick ref.
<KI7MT> Not in ubuntu-docs source tree though
<KI7MT> like yelp tables.page  and pulls up the tables page with examples etc etc
<KI7MT> examples being the Mallard code we'd need to use in the docs, not just the final table render.
<KI7MT> Cuz right now I'm using Gnotes or Tomboy for quick ref stuff ..cut and paste things..
<KI7MT> I guess  could use Gedit code snippets or something too .. just thought yelp help was good way to display them
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-15
<KI7MT> Question, how do we maintain the LTS help for desktop, is is merely frozen in time when the LTS is releases?
<KI7MT> *is it?
<godbyk> I think we can release updates after the initial Ubuntu release, but I'm not sure.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: In theory we can do SRU updates. In practice we have not. Actually, we just missed a language pack update release. Why? Because I saw the notice, but then forgot.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: For serverguide (I know you were aksing about DeskTop) there is no SRU requirement, becuase it is not a package.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Yeah, there's only so many hours ins a day .. is there's a schedule posted for this? I have the LTS release skeds, but it does't have that level of detail on it.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: The help.ubunut.com version of stuff does deviate a tiny bit from the DeskTop package, if we decide it is O.K.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Recall the footer change, for example.
<dsmythies> gobbyk: I want to change the order of some lines on the spreadsheet. Why? becuase I am trying to compate line by line with an Excel spread sheet I made from a directory listing, which I thn fed through a sort. Long sotry short, it is drving me nuts becuase the sort orders are not the same.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Is that O.K. with you?
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, go for it!
<dsmythies> godbyk: O.K.
<godbyk> At one point the spreadsheet was in alphabetical order, but I think new pages were tacked on later.
<godbyk> When I originally created the spreadsheet, it was just an alphabetized list of all the .page files.
<dsmythies> godbyk: yes, but "ls -l" is weird for period and -. so I sorted using a dosbox and windows sort and still have grief.
<godbyk> ah
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Are you able to select spreadsheet cell number A322? I can not select it, but rather get turfed to cell A325. (not that it matters right now.) (windows-key.page line)
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Hold on I'll go check.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: looks O.K> for you.
<KI7MT> Yep, I can select it.
<dsmythies> hmmm... I'm done, so I think I'll close my broswer and try again later. Thanks.
<KI7MT> Ok CUL
<dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: Spreadsheet and files should now compare, except those new ones KI7MT is adding, that are not yet master docs.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: Spreadsheet and files should now compare, except those new ones KI7MT is adding, that are not yet in master docs.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Cool. Thanks for your help.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Have you looked at or played with the Files Application (new version of Nautulis File Manager) in Trusty?
<dsmythies> Ki7MT: Yes I have.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I use it often, because I have absolutely no clue how to navigate around the help system. So almost universally, I use the "files" thingy to select the .page file I want to look at and then right click and select "open with" then select help. Then I pop up levels to figure out it got there.
<KI7MT> All I can say is, that interface is Horrible.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I like it.
<KI7MT> They removed all the menu's, and stuck a few icons up all the system icons and that's it.
<KI7MT> *stuck icons near system icons
<dsmythies> KI7MT: There is some text if you hover over the icons.
<KI7MT> Just my opinion, I think that interface not very good at all.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am adding a note to the MP.
<KI7MT> Most apps, certainly not all, still have a top bar menu system of some kind, even if they stick cryptic icons here and there. The Files Apps removed them I guess, maybe an oversight, intentional I don't know.
<KI7MT> What MP ?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/lp1269100-fix/+merge/201679
<godbyk> KI7MT: It's intentional. A number of other GNOME apps are following suit (e.g., Evince).
<KI7MT> godbyk, Yeah, but in Unity we dont have the short cuts in place that they do in Gnome3
<godbyk> I think the Ubuntu devs are trying to bring back some pull-down menus for some of those apps.
<KI7MT> Of the two, I find the Gnome DE much easier to Navigate, but not always as easy to use, if that make sense.
<KI7MT> wow, there's 18 files in the files-x.page group.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I got you email, I guess it can wait until some picks up editing the document-x.page files then, as there a mess.
<KI7MT> I need to install Gnome3 on my desktop .. I'm writing up some cheat-sheets and Gedit Code Snippets.
<KI7MT> for Mallard that is.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am not clear on what you saying. Are you saying you are bailing on the MP?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, If you don't like it, reject, I put what I thought was best on it, you strongly disagree, not much more need be said really.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. thanks for clarifying. And thanks again for helping. I'll take over the MP from here.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, sorry was on my other box. Ok will take those off my task list then.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, there's a bug open for the other 11 document-x.page files, may want to work that file with the other, but is up to you.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I moved the bug back to new, and put it back to unassigned .. I'll put the branch and you can start clean on this.
<KI7MT> *pull the branch
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Ugh oh... That isn't what I wanted at all. I was planning to accep the MP but restore a portion of documents-viewgrid.page at the same time. It would then need further editing, in future, as part of the overhaul that you correctly pointed out all of that group of files needs.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-16
<dsmythies> shaunm_: are you around?
<shaunm_> dsmythies: what's up?
<dsmythies> shaunm_: There is another bug report which I originally diagnosed as an issue with the html/Makefile.
<dsmythies> Shaunm_: However, and after observing some discussion about it between godbyk and KI7MT on this IRC channel,
<dsmythies> shaunm_: it has been determined that it is an upstream issue also, and my original diagnosis was incorrect.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: reference: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1239162
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1239162 in Ubuntu Documentation "yelp-build incorrect construction of path to .svg files. Copy step fails" [Low,Confirmed]
<dsmythies> shaunm_: At this point, I am trying to determine if the root issue is in xsltproc or yelp-tools (yelp-build).
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I would appreciate any insight / opinion you might have.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I realize a reply might take some time. If you are willing to take a look, perhaps reply on the bug report itself.
<shaunm_> mmm, referencing icons by absolute path
<shaunm_> probably a bug in yelp-build. I'll take a look later today
<dsmythies> shaumn_: Thanks very much.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: that bug is against an old version of yelp-tools
<shaunm_> the good news is, there are no longer any errors with those files
<shaunm_> the bad news is, yelp-build completely ignores them. so unless help.ubuntu.com/usr/share/icons/... exists and has the files, you'll have broken images
<shaunm_> and I'm not really sure the best way to solve that
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Currently (at least whatever yelp-build I am ausing now) does build the html properly, and the links are to, for example:
<dsmythies> <p class="p"><span class=" em">Bluetooth menu</span> <span class="media media-image"><img src="img/bluetooth-active.svg" alt="Bluetooth icon"></span></p>
<dsmythies> which is a realtive link to the correct place (or desired palce)
<dsmythies> are you saying it will be different now?
<dsmythies> shaunm_: as for the copy step is question here. In my opinion, it is better that it doesn't even try to copy the files.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: as for the copy step in question here. In my opinion, it is better that it doesn't even try to copy the files.
<dsmythies> why? becuase sometimes one is compiling on a computer that doesn't actually have the files.
<dsmythies> Now, that might just be me.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: oh, that might be part of your customization layer. I was just calling yelp-build without any customizations. I'll look
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I better figure out how to try the newest version of yelp stuff, for testing. It seems, a few times now, I bring up issues that are already solved.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: there's probably a ppa with the latest packages
<shaunm_> otherwise, honestly, I often override the package manager and install from the tarball
<shaunm_> not something I generally recommend for most packages, but yelp-tools is pretty safe
<dsmythies> shaunm_: where can I get the tarball?
<shaunm_> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/yelp-tools/
<shaunm_> or git clone git://git.gnome.org/yelp-tools
<shaunm_> oh yikes, you guys are overriding yelp.page
<shaunm_> err, html.pge
<shaunm_> * html.page
<shaunm_> sheesh
<shaunm_> and mal2html.page.linktrails.trail
<shaunm_> actually, I know why you're overriding mal2html.page.linktrails.trail, and I added a hook in the xsl quite some time ago so you could stop doing that
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Ugh... Ugh... Not guility. These are before my time.
<shaunm_> the html.page override is much much trickier
<shaunm_> I know
<shaunm_> probably mdke
<dsmythies> and or Jeremy
<shaunm_> yeah
<shaunm_> anyway, if it's the only way to do what you need to do, then it is what it is
<shaunm_> I've tried to add extension points whenever I see overrides like these, so people can use those instead
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Please let us know if we should change things. Myself, I would never know otherwise.
<shaunm_> I'll cook up a patch for the mal2html.page.linktrails.trail override. that one's easy to fix, because I already added an extension point for exactly that purpose
<shaunm_> the other one is hard
<dsmythies> shaunm_: O.K. Understood.
 * dsmythies goes off to get and try tarball
<dsmythies> shaunm_: can I not build a .deb directly from the git clone? Note: my only experience is with kernel.org where I just do "git pull" then "make deb-pkg" then install using "sudo dpkg -i linux-bla-bla.deb"
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I guess not, and I guess that is why you said you "often override the package manager and install from the tarball" above.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, another option for the traditional ./configure .. make && make install .. look into checkintall package with auto-apt .. makes removal and / or updating from sources pretty easy: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall
<KI7MT> Or, one can just build it in $USER/bin or something, forgoing make install and sudo ln -s /usr/local/bin for testing  .. somthing along those lines.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: thanks for the suggestions. In the end, I want to be sure I can revert, if needed.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, that's the purpose of checkinstall, it updates the pkg-manager also. Removal is then something like dpkg -r <package-name>
<KI7MT> dsmythies,  Use it for testing Hamlib and wsjtx builds .. you could also use /opt and and in .bashrc add path var's .. I use that method for testing Intel and Portland compilers while still maintaining standard system gcc installs.ff.
<KI7MT> * I use it for testing .. ..
<shaunm_> that's kind of slick
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Aghh... Thanks
 * dsmythies goes off to study up
<shaunm_> dsmythies: for yelp-tools, you could just install with --prefix=/usr/local
<shaunm_> should work just fine, and won't interfere with the packaged yelp-tools in /usr
<shaunm_> or somewhere in /opt or whatever
<shaunm_> but then you'll have to manage $PATH for your Makefile to work
<dsmythies> hmmm... A saga is developing...
<dsmythies> KI7MT: checkinstall seems to be exactly what I was looking for. However, I got "Building Debian package... FAILED!". Everything turns into a saga.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, interesting .. did it say why it failed?
<dsmythies> KI7MT: It asked if I wanted to look at the log. I said yes. version did not start with a digit. Did it again, forcing version instead of default, and now it seems happy.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, well seems all is well in the end :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-17
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Are you around?
<dsmythies> godbyk: Are you around?
<dsmythies> godbyk: Never mind, I swithed to e-mail. Still looking for shaunm_ though.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: hey
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Agreed, the issue (bug report) I brought to your attention yesterday will be solved
<dsmythies> shaunm_: once the latest yelp stuff propagates down to Ubuntu.
<dsmythies> shaunm_:
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Would you consider to add a source file present check to the copy step? Example:
<dsmythies> shaunm_:
<dsmythies> shaunm_:         line_dest=`echo "$line_dest" | urldecode`
<dsmythies> shaunm_:        if [ "$line_src" != "$line_dest" ]; then
<dsmythies> shaunm_:            line_dir=`dirname "$line_dest"`
<dsmythies> shaunm_:            if test -e $line_src; then
<dsmythies> shaunm_:               mkdir_p "$line_dir"
<dsmythies> shaunm_:               cp "$line_src" "$line_dest"
<dsmythies> shaunm_:            fi
<dsmythies> shaunm_:        fi
<dsmythies> shaunm_:
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I realize there are both pros and cons with this one, but my thinking is that there
<dsmythies> shaunm_: needs to be some after html compile broken images check step anyhow, because,
<dsmythies> shaunm_: and as you pointed out yesterday, some file paths are ignored now anyway.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: For context, we get about 10 copy errors per language times over 60 languages during the full html build.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Becuase there are very very few resgion specific screen shots.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: this real langauage specific errors tend to scroll off and not be noticed.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: thus real langauage specific errors tend to scroll off and not be noticed.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: U.S. english is O.K.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: so silently ignoring media files that don't exist?
<dsmythies> shaumn_: Yes.
<shaunm_> I'd be worried that other users would have legitimate issues of missing images that they wouldn't notice
<shaunm_> though I should probably add a command to yelp-check to check that all media files exist
 * shaunm_ goes to add it to his TODO, finds it's already there
<dsmythies> shaumn_: lol
<shaunm_> but maybe as an option
<shaunm_> hmm
<dsmythies> shaumn_: an option would be great. Then one could run it both ways and have the best of both worlds.
<shaunm_> why do you have files referenced that don't exist?
<shaunm_> besides the absolute paths to icons in /usr/share
<dsmythies> shaunm_: Because if a region doesn't do region specific screen shots, then they will get the U.S. English one. wait a minute and I'll paste in an example here.
<dsmythies> shaumn_: wait another minute while I remove my yelp-build edit...
<shaunm_> ah, of course
<shaunm_> we do our html build differently in gnome. basically, we just make file copies before running yelp-build
<dsmythies> shaunm_: cp: cannot stat `/home/doug/docs-1404/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/ast/figures/color-average.png': No such file or directory
<shaunm_> that makes perfect sense
<dsmythies> shaunm_: maybe I should consider work flow change instead. The way we do it is extremely wastful of files.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: there are many many many identical files but with language specific extentions on the end.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: I better go off and think about this smoe more.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Can we add those yelp-check checks to the Makefile so they get executed and brought to our attention during the build and/or release process? Perhaps add them to the existing 'check' target?
<dsmythies> godbyk: That is a good idea. I'll see, but not just now. These are all tangents. What I am really trying to do is identify and eliminate the two remaining html compile errors.
<dsmythies> godbyk: The goal is to have people complaining that there is not feedback during compile, becuase nothing is printed. I.E. no errors.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I hate errors spewing and spewing during compile. Why? Becuase then people become numb to them.
<dsmythies> godbyk: And then real errors go un-noticed.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I am trying to find the root cause of these: "Unmatched block element: section"
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-18
<godbyk> dsmythies: I agree completely.
<dsmythies> godbyk: It actually doesn't seem to be unmatched "section", as I checked every signal paring.
<godbyk> dsmythies: And it'd be nice to log the output and only print errors to the console during compilation.
<godbyk> Get all the irrelevant status messages out of the way, too.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ugh.. the xml-related warnings/errors I get are a complete pain to track down because they never seem to complain about the actual problem.
<godbyk> dsmythies: They just complain in the vicinity of the problem.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Yes, I agree. I am working on html compile right now. The other language .page compile will be a saga for another day.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Sounds good.
<dsmythies> godby: Yes, validation errors are the worst, as you say the actual error is only somewhere nearby.
<godbyk> dsmythies: On another matter, what's your take on the hibernate bug+merge proposal?
<godbyk> We have a couple options:
<godbyk> 1. Accept the MP so the instructions are up to date and valid, or
<godbyk> 2. Remove the instructions completely.
<godbyk> Right now there are existing 'how to re-enable hibernate' instructions that don't work properly.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I have been in total agrement with you throughout. But I have not reviewed that other link, the meeting minutes or whatever.
<dsmythies> godbyk: since I do not like 2, I guess 1.
<godbyk> From what I've read in the thread on the tech board mailing list, it appears that hibernation was disabled because it would fail on a lot of systems for a variety of reasons.
<dsmythies> godbyk: That is waht KI7MT was saying also.
<godbyk> And it seems that while some slight progress may have been made, no one is eager to re-enable the hibernate menu option because the feature still has lots of unresolved issues.
<godbyk> I think (1) is the simplest thing to do for now,
<godbyk> though (2) is tempting.
<godbyk> I don't feel like I have enough info to really make a good call on (2), though. I don't know how common the problems are.
<godbyk> (I want to ensure the docs aren't blamed for getting someone into trouble. So if there isn't already a rather hefty disclaimer on that page, I'll probably add one.)
<dsmythies> godbyk: If you want more definate input from me, I will have to go off and study. It just isn't something that I have to deal with.
<KI7MT> godbyk, dsmythies Just FYI .. the newest branch of gnome-docs already has this mod written up .. System Settings >> Battery & Power I think it's under.
<godbyk> KI7MT: Thanks. I'll take a look at that!
<dsmythies> KI7MT: is that the GNOME help I have on my 14.04 DeskTop, or some other GNOME help?
<KI7MT> I pulled the latest branch, it's in there, let me look on  my laptop.
<KI7MT> 12.04 doesn't have it in Gnome3 help .. not sure about Gnome3 on 14.04 .. but the dev branch defiantly has it.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, it appears to be there on my 14.04 DeskTop. With a disclaimer.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I am actually running Unity at the moment, but just open the GNOME help manually.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: For other reasons (e-mail from earlier today), I would like to look at the dev branch. Where did you get it?
<KI7MT> dsmythies, It's on Git .. let me go get the link
<KI7MT> dsmythies, https://wiki.gnome.org/Git
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Thanks. I'll try ti figure out the proper "git clone bla"
<KI7MT> here's the pull: git clone git://git.gnome.org/gnome-user-docs
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Thanks.
<dsmythies> godbyk: KI7MT: re: hibernate: The GNOME page and the Unity page are currently identical. The merge proposal and bug report in debate makes an additional change to the unity page.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I say do option 1.
<godbyk> dsmythies: That's what I'm leaning toward, currently.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I think the current disclaimer is good enough.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I'll take a look at it soon. Thanks!
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I didn't pull them both up  .. maybe had he wrong page up in Unity
<KI7MT> *had the
<KI7MT> dsmythies, by Gnome page, are you pages pulled from Git and Unity and Unity on 14.04?
<KI7MT> *talking about pages pull
<KI7MT> let me try that again, are you referring to the Gnome Git pull and Unity on 14.04
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I only have got on my server, so my git clone is there. So no, I pulled up on my DeskTop 14.04 VM both pages (GNOME and Unity) side by side.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I only have git on my server, so my git clone is there. So no, I pulled up on my DeskTop 14.04 VM both pages (GNOME and Unity) side by side.
<KI7MT> Ok., I've not looked at the MP, need to look at that an see the diffs.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: i'll look at the git pull version for any further changes.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: as for my other reasons for looking at the git clone version, they are still not up to date with reality.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, I have Gnome3 on my laptop here, 12.04 .. so will look Git pull and what's on here.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: while the two GNOME files (power-hibernate.page from git and from 14.04) differ by a few bytes, the content appears the same.
<KI7MT> I had to pull gnome-docs .. still downloading
<KI7MT> dsmythies, yeah, the patch is definitely updating the gnome Git pull too  .. the MP would be adding to that allso.
<dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not understand. The MP is only for ubuntu-docs. It appears as though the same change could be applied upstream also, though.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, The original file was probably form the gnomes docs  .. donesn't matter really, main thing is the ub-docs gets the MP update. The Gnome folks wold have to test ti against Gnome3 anyway.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Are you around?
<dsmythies> godbyk: I'll just go ahead and ask my question, and maybe see a reply later today or whenever:
<dsmythies> godbyk: I have finally isolated the source of the two html compile errors "Unmatched block element: section".
<dsmythies> godbyk: to display-dual-monitors.page and the basic root issue is if:choose stuff, yet again. It appears to be confusing xsltproc
<dsmythies> godbyk: Note: I am using the upstream yelp-tools that shaunm_ pointed me to the other day.
<dsmythies> godbyK: It took me many many hours to isolate the file, but the final trick was to edit yelp build and add the --load-trace switch to the related xsltproc call.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Anyway, rather than attempt to figure out a away to make it work, I want to just nuke the if:choose stuff.
<dsmythies> godbyK: We have been hoovering around this suggestion both here on IRC and on the doc team e-mail list for awhile now.
<dsmythies> godbyk: This particular file is completely different than the GNOME version already anyhow, so I think there isn't really an issue.
<dsmythies> godbyk: What do you think?
<godbyk> dsmythies: For our needs, it appears that the conditionals (<if:choose>, etc.) aren't necessary since we use different sets of .page files for Unity and GNOME Shell.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Given that, I don't think there's any need to maintain the conditions if they're getting in our way.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I agree. I will proceed with display-dual-monitors.page modifications later today.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I think at one time Jermey was trying to make it so that one set of .page files could be used for both Unity and GNOME. That effort has now been abandoned, and I think that was confirmed by shaunm_ here on IRC a few days ago.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Makes sense.
<godbyk> dsmythies: The conditionals would be useful if we shared one set of files for both platforms and if we had our work committed upstream. But since neither are the case, the conditionals are all that useful to us.
<dsmythies> godbyk: you meant "the conditionals are all that useful to us.
<dsmythies> godbyk: you meant "the conditionals are not all that useful to us.
<dsmythies> right?
<godbyk> dsmythies: *not* all that useful, yeah. Sorry.
<dsmythies> godbyk: In an ideal world, we would sort out GNOME upstream first, then unity downstream. However, there are only so amny hours in a day. Although I will feel bad not upstreaming edits that could apply to both.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Agreed. Once we get our docs up to speed, we can look into submitting patches upstream. I don't mind doing that.
 * dsmythies leaves for nephew's soccer game....
<godbyk> Have fun!
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-19
<belkinsa> cprofitt, thanks for the kind words
#ubuntu-doc 2015-01-14
<imnichol> validate.sh is throwing an error on the version of the serverguide that I branched a few minutes ago.  Error is "serverguide.xml:2: element legalnotice: validity error: ID legal already defined"
<imnichol> Anyone have any suggestions on how I could fix that?
<imnichol> I grepped through the source and the only instances of the word "legal" in serverguide/C/* is that line (line 2 of serverguide.xml)
<imnichol> Hm.  I'm on vivid, I'm thinking that this bug might be the cause: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=737840#c4
<ubot2`> Gnome bug 737840 in general "Spurious warning when expanding external entities containing ID attributes" [Normal,Assigned]
#ubuntu-doc 2017-01-20
<minsikcho> Hello! I have created my personal page few years ago on Ubuntu Wiki, but I am no longer active in the community and would like to have the page deleted. However, it turns out that I do not have edit/deletion access to Ubuntu Wiki now. Can anyone point me who I should contact to? Thank you.
#ubuntu-doc 2018-01-16
<davidcalle> "Clicking on the cog at the top right of the window will open a menu allowing you to change some display settings, as well as open and close log files."
<davidcalle> I think this sentence should end with "opening and closing log files", am I wrong?
<davidcalle> evilnickveitch: degville
