#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-04
<smurfix> Is anybody going to open this meeting / are we waiting for people / ???
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:smurfix] : Tuesday 23 November 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<pitti> smurfix: I pinged sabdfl
* Kamion is here
<sabdfl> hi all
<sabdfl> nothing in the wiki agenda
<sabdfl> can we call for any other business?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) I believe there were some NM candidates to approve
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) the note in the agenda is from last week's TB meeting if memory serves correctly
<smurfix> Kamion: it serves
<haggai> sabdfl asked me last week to ask here about NM
<sabdfl> haggai: process is to become a contributor, then a maintainer in universe, then in main
<sabdfl> Kamion: is there a list of NM candidates that the TB approved last week?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) I'm just trawling the irclog
<smurfix> the TB didn't
<smurfix> they were told to ask here first
<sabdfl> i think all we did was confirm people who had already been approved at the previous CC meeting
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) haggai is the only one I can see there who was referred to the CC for approval
<smurfix> s/they/at least one person 
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) the other people mentioned were already approved last meeting
<sabdfl> haggai: do you have a sponsor, someone on the existing maintainer team who can vouch for you?
<sabdfl> or can you point us at upstream / other distro maintainership credentials?
<haggai> plenty I hope :)
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) possibly enrico too, not clear on his current status
<sabdfl> enrico's fully approved, both TB and CC
<haggai> sabdfl: OOo / Debian maintainer etc
<sabdfl> ah
<sabdfl> packages in debian?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) sabdfl: haggai is the OOo guy whose mail I referred to you last week
<sabdfl> Kamion: chris?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) yes
<haggai> sabdfl: that's me
* sabdfl blushes furiously
<haggai> sorry for the obscure nick
<sabdfl> certainly no objections from me, i'd already asked elmo to approve your key for KDE-related uploading
<sabdfl> elmo, mako, comments on chris halls?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) Chris' only Debian package in his own name is ayttm, but he's done a great deal of work in teams; I'm happy
<elmo> sabdfl: no problems at all with haggai
<sabdfl> mako around?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) mako doesn't seem to be up yet
<haggai> yeah OOo in a team is kind of a lot more more work than owning a normal package :)
<sabdfl> if we have mdz and keybuk, maybe we can get TB go-ahead today too
<smurfix> mako's been idle for 10h
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) haggai: quite so :-)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i think that's a CC go ahead
<sabdfl> don't want to wait a week for TB go ahead
<haggai> ok thanks very much :)
<sabdfl> haggai, if you can get an email from mdz to go with keybuk's go-ahead then you're sorted
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) mdz just showed up, I guess he's trawling backlog
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) was distracted by the backlog on -devel actually :-)
<Keybuk> haggai definitely has my go-ahead :)
<sabdfl> elmo: will you act on a go-ahead for haggai from mdz?
<sabdfl> i think this can extend to main ;-)
<elmo> sure
<sabdfl> elmo: do we have an easy way to let people upload to universe / multiverse only?
<elmo> sabdfl: not right now, but it's an hour or so to implement
<sabdfl> elmo: rock on ;-)
* mako waves
<elmo> sabdfl: the existing approved maintainers - should they have access to main?
<sabdfl> yes
<elmo> ok
<elmo> (they do right now)
<sabdfl> we need to create a faster process for non-main uploaders
<sabdfl> any other business?
* mako is caught up
<sabdfl> kamion, thanks for standing in for mdz
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) yes, thanks
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) np, will get back with progress later today; it was a relatively quiet week TBH
<sabdfl> not in this house :-)
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) heh
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> anything in connection with The Mataro Sessions people want to raise?
<sabdfl> looking fwd to meeting the local LUG'ers
<sabdfl> thanks everyone
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) has a BOF about community processes already been proposed?
<sabdfl> silbs: ^^?
<silbs> yes, believe that's on the list
<sabdfl> see you all there
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) we don't seem to have anything scheduled yet for bringing new Ubuntu maintainers up to speed
<silbs> lulu is drafting a schedule now. so other suggestions for bofs would be welcome
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) might be worth having some kind of a Q&A session
<mako> silbs: i think i had one or two
<mako> Kamion: yeah, there is a plan for this
<silbs> Kamion: what kind of q&a do you mean?
<sabdfl> we haven't implemented some of the ideas that came out of oxford
<sabdfl> "ubuntu enhancement proposals"
<mako> Kamion: there will be a day for questions and more introductory stuff
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) yet
<sabdfl> be nice to have that up and running for the conf
<sabdfl> we could have a bof on each significant proposal
<sabdfl> mako: where are we on shipit stats?
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) silbs: what mako said; we have a number of non-Canonical Ubuntu maintainers coming to the conference, and I'm sure some of them have questions about process that are best answered in person; the non-Debian guys may also have technical problems we can help with
<lulu> kamion: we have a BOF scheduled for this at the conf on the 8th
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) there is documentation that needs to be written
<smurfix> mako: ... and will there be a huge stack of CDs to carry off in Mataro?  ;-)
<mako> sabdfl: i've been finalizing the dump from early last week.. but when i checked on thursday we had i think 800 orders between sunday and thursday so somewhere in the range of just under 2000 new order orders (average of ~10 cds) each way
<mako> sabdfl: week
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) lulu: ok, good
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> so 20,000 / week going out 
<sabdfl> that's awesome
<mako> sabdfl: it will fluctuate depending on press and such
<sabdfl> can we wrap up?
<sabdfl> elmo, mako, thanks
<sabdfl> cheers
<mako> yay, easy summary :)
* smurfix waves
<haggai> thanks folks
* Kamion makes that a 19-minute meeting
(Kamion/#ubuntu-meeting) awesome
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 30 November 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Technical Board meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-05
<Simira> ogra :) How's your dog?
<ogra> Simira, he's ok ...
<ogra> for his age ...
<ogra> moving very slow ...
<Simira> ogra : I guess that's normal. As long as he's not hurting
<ogra> nope, he isnt
<ogra> he just gets lame slowly ...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 30 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<highvoltage> boo
<jelkner> good morning!
<highvoltage> goof morning, jelkner.
<highvoltage> (good)
<jelkner> this is the time and place for the edubuntu meeting, yes?
<kjcole> Why else would i beawake at this god forsaken hour?
<jelkner> kjcole: speaking of god forsaken hours, does sunday at 9 work for you (or even 8:30 if your *really* brave ;-)?
<spacey> 13:00 in the afternoon is quite reasonable :D
<kjcole> jelkner: Hoooooowl!
<jelkner> can i take that as a yes?
<kjcole> jelkner: Sigh, oh the sacrifices I make.
<jelkner> does that mean you're up for 8:30am ?
* kjcole whines "all... right... if I *HAVE* to."
<kjcole> jelkner; til when?
<highvoltage> jelkner: yep
<jelkner> till 12:00 noon
<highvoltage> 2PM, what's God-forsaken about that? :P
<jelkner> not sure exactly, i need to take my son to his tennis game
<jelkner> but i can definitely work until noon
<jelkner> kjcole: give me a quick call at 703-228-5419 to work out details (if you're near a phone)
<kjcole> jelkner: for now let's say yes, but I'll want to check bus schedules, spouse schedules, etc.
<JaneW> hi all
<JaneW> role call
<JaneW> roll even
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
<JaneW> is ogra in the house?
<highvoltage> he quit a few minutes ago.
<kjcole> JaneW: Ogra was a few min ago
<JaneW> let's give him a minute to return...
<jelkner> he's back
<highvoltage> wow, that worked :)
<JaneW> hi ogra 
<ogra> grumble ...
<JaneW> and flint and mhz
* mhz is here
<highvoltage> hi ogra 
<ogra> hi all
<highvoltage> and flint and JaneW
<mhz> hi you all, Edubuntereos! :D
<ogra> working on erge bugs is no fun 
<ogra> *merge
<flint> do you have any idea how early this is? Good Morning...
<spacey> i'm present
<JaneW> hi spacey
<kjcole> Ogra: No urge to merge?
<mhz> flint: fresh ideas in the morning
<ogra> kjcole, all merge bugs have to be finished tomorrow...
<ogra> (for main)
<flint> morning kevin, jane, ollli et al.
* kjcole sleepily mumbles something aproximating a greeting to all
<ogra> so tech update ? 
<flint> where is my coffee...jane you carp about agendas?
<highvoltage> ogra: fire away!
<jelkner> ogra: please do!
<kjcole> As jane said a few min ago.. Roll call first?
<flint> oh no, it's elkner!!!
* highvoltage is here
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/report.html shows that we are pretty good for the flight CD on friday/saturday
<flint> flint is flint
* jelkner is Jeff Elkner
* spacey is Herman Bos
<spacey> :P
* ogra is OliverGrawert
* highvoltage is JonathanCarter
* Yagisan is Jamie Jones
<ogra> the only differenc we have to the ubuntu CD currently is kino, which i currently consider to be dropped completely...
<ogra> kino is a video editing app... 
<highvoltage> ogra: how does the space look like?
<ogra> video editing over ltsp is no real fun ...
<highvoltage> ogra: are the applications larger than the previous versions?
<ogra> we are at 670MB currently ...
<ogra> so plenty of space ...
<highvoltage> nice.
<mhz> ogra: besidea, I've been told Kino is not the best ,so far, video editing app.
<ogra> i requested a live filesystem build from lamont, but didnt hear back yet
<ogra> mhz, its the best we have in main
<ogra> and i'd like to keep it ... but it doesnt really make sense if you cant use it ...
<ogra> videos over ltsp give you ~10 frames a second
<ogra> which is not better than a slideshow
<spacey> lots of video stuff in development
<spacey> but not mature
<Yagisan> ogra: is that because of lack of video acceleration on the clients ?
<ogra> might be, but i dont thik the video issue can be solved before dapper
<ogra> Yagisan, its because you send the picture back and forth through the ssh connection
<spacey> high traffic
<ogra> if we once have local app support (approximately dapper+1) you will be able to use it
<spacey> that would be fancy
<kjcole> ogra: not that it is necessarily possible, but as a tie in to the special needs in education (a.k.a. accessibility) video-based education for deaf students using sign language, would be sweet.  But I'm just fantasizing.
<ogra> ok, so much about the CD ... we'll have a install CD ready for flight2, i cant promise a liveCD before lamont came back to me ... please start testing 
<ogra> kjcole, as long as the base is not there, i cant do much ...
<ogra> local apps is not on my list for this release
<ogra> development in general :
<ogra> i inspected willow .... anybody know willow ?
<kjcole> ogra: I wasn't suggesting you create it.  Just tossing an idea out... planting seeds...
<ogra> (except spacey )
<spacey> :o
<ogra> kjcole, lets sit together fr dapper+1 if you have experience in this warea
<ogra> i think jelkner and flint will do a dapper dance ...... ;)
<ogra> willow is a content filter app written in pythin ....
<ogra> python
<flint> not this early in the morning i won't...
<kjcole> ogra: that image is just too scary to comtemplate.
<jelkner> i'm dancing already!
<ogra> its *not* requiring urllists or filter rules....
<flint> oh neat!
* spacey pictures flint dancing
<mhz> wow
<ogra> its based on bayesian filtering (similar to spamfilters)
<kjcole> ogra: re video, no experience. just wishes.
<flint> where do I find it (imagine Hindernburg landing at Lakehurst NJ.)
<ogra> kjcole, feel free to work on it with me anyway ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: is ldap on your list for this release?
<kjcole> ogra: sure.
<jelkner> ogra: does that mean we can run it on the server?
<ogra> i'll package it up as soon as i got time ...
<spacey> anyway i will look into willow in the next week and see what i can do
<ogra> it requires some heavy packaging knowledge to get it right since i want a transparent proxy mode by default ...
<ogra> but
<ogra> it has a webbased gui i plan to replace with a desktop gui ....
<spacey> complete replacement? optional would be nice?
<ogra> i made some initial work available as bzr archive ... spacey expressed interest to work on it
<highvoltage> nice.
<spacey> for if you don't run it on the edubuntu machine but on a router
<flint> (Hindenburg landing at Lakehurst NJ := flint dancing for joy over willow :^)
<ogra> you will be ale to enable the web gui, but i will disable it by default 
<ogra> the default conf app will be the desktop gui
<spacey> ogra, fair enough :)
<ogra> if you want to work on it, please make a bzr branch from my archive and make your work available in bzr on the web so i can merge it
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/
<ogra> ^^^ my bzr archives 
<spacey> ok ^_^
<kjcole> flint: I think for willow, one should "weep" (for joy of course).
<flint> spacey, should we consider booting willow on a router as an outboard machine
<spacey> outboard?
<ogra> the basic glade gui stuff is done, it would be nice just to port the web gui functions for the backend
<flint> spacey, later... old idea...
<spacey> ok
<ogra> the plan since we still are on a single classroom solution is to run it on the server ...
<ogra> as transparent proxy, configured to run by default
<flint> ah, the old python...
<jane_> for goodness sake why does my line disconnect at 12:00UTC every wednesday....?!!
<ogra> if and only if it gets ready in time before UVF, i'll try to get it on the CD
<spacey> i'll give willow a testdrive on friday
<ogra> else you'll have it in universe to install separately
<highvoltage> JaneW: Telkom
<JaneW> (sorry about that *again*)
<ogra> (and if i dont discover bad bugs indeed)
<kjcole> JaneW: You do seem to come and go a bit... 
<flint> JaneW, do you know how much it costs us to have that done every week?  Tell her guys!
<JaneW> highvoltage: but it's FINE the rest of the week.... *shakeshead*
<ogra> the status of ltsp:
<ogra> my ldm fixes are submitted to mdz for review, havent heard back yet ....
<ogra> the multiarch patch Yagisan wrote is integrated and submitted to mdz .... havent heard back either
<flint> zimmerman just got back from San Francisco...
* Yagisan hopes that gets merged soon
<ogra> sound is not submittable integrated yet, my merge bugs for ubuntu currently take most of my dev time ...
<highvoltage> Yagisan: congrats with your boy!
<ogra> but all my work is available in my bzr archive for inspection, so feel free to bzr get it ;)
<ogra> (see url above)
<JaneW> ^^^ +++
<highvoltage> ogra: and swapping over the network?
<Yagisan> thanks. love to chat about him after meeting
<ogra> highvoltage, ....
<flint> Yagisan, Jamie, is there a Jones sub-process?
<ogra> to answer highvoltage, the specs are at mdz for review as well ...
<highvoltage> ok.
<ogra> the ThinClientMemoryUsage spec contains the network swap stuff...
<ogra> as soon as its approved, i'll work on integrating that
<ogra> as well as the FasterBootScpe and the SoundSpec
<highvoltage> nice. it's quite essential, imo.
<ogra> its already integrated in breezy 
<Yagisan> ogra: how far along is ThinClientMemoryUsage ?
<ogra> but is not set up ...
<highvoltage> ogra: i didn't know that, let's talk about that later then.
<ogra> Yagisan, thats last on my priority list, since it depends on other stuff
<flint> ogra, what about block memory devices?  Sound is optional in a crowded classroom
<ogra> i.e. the faster boot spec
<kjcole> flint: especially since they're all listening to their iPod's anyway.
<flint> kjcole, or talking on their cell phones...
<ogra> the local device spec is a= not done yet and b) depending on work of others who are very busy currently
<Yagisan> what has the boot time been reduced to ?
<ogra> Yagisan, hard to predict, i totally depend on Keybuks fixes of udev that havent hit dapper yet
<highvoltage> ogra: the default edubuntu installer for release, will it use the ncurses d-i or u-e?
<ogra> currently my thin client here (a very slow one) produces a bootchart with 50seconds
<highvoltage> 50seconds not too bad.
<ogra> highvoltage, we'll have two ...
<flint> highvoltage, I thought they used whiptail
<kjcole> d-i or u-e?
<Yagisan> also, would multicast tftp help speed the boot process ? It could allow etherboot systems to load the kernel more efficently
<ogra> the liveCD will have u-e but only install the workstation version
<spacey> kjcole, debian installer or ubuntu-express
<highvoltage> kjcole: debian-installer / ubuntu-express
<ogra> te install cd will have d-i and install the server
<highvoltage> kjcole: sorry, a bit lazy to type
<Yagisan> ogra: after meeting - please tel me how to bootchart my terminals
<ogra> Yagisan, sudo apt-get install bootchart in the chroot ;)
<ogra> (works only in dapper)
* Yagisan makes note to backport it
<kjcole> spacey, highvoltage: That's what I get for being an rpm guy in an obviously deb universe. Thanks.
<ogra> Yagisan, you cant
<ogra> it depends on certain features of initramfsafaik
* highvoltage wonders if we could get the flying penguins thingie in ubuntu-express, or something similar, at least
<ogra> highvoltage, feel free to chat with Kamion about that, i hav no extra dev time for working on express at all
<highvoltage> cool.
<ogra> ltsp is more important currently
<highvoltage> completely agreed.
<ogra> ok, thats all from my side for now ... if Kamion calls out for flight 2 tests, please start testing our CD, it should be fine by then ...
<JaneW> thanks ogra
<ogra> oh, in a sidenote, the gobby main inclusion report is written and waiting for approval through pitti
<JaneW> I can;t belive none of my beaurocratic stuff came through int he beginning - maybe there's an admin filter here ;)
<highvoltage> seems like you're way ahead of everyone, ogra.
<JaneW> ogra: yay :)
<ogra> as soon as thats done i'll add it to the desktop
<flint> ogra, thanks for all the hard work, I have been rebuilding my Lab here in Vermont
<jelkner> ogra: thanks a 10**6!
<ogra> flint, cool
<JaneW> ogra: yes well done you have been quietly working away haven't you?
<ogra> JaneW, yup...
<spacey> hard worker :)
<ogra> but my merge bugs take a lot time currently
<kjcole> ogra: such a busy boy!  
<JaneW> understood
<ogra> so i cant as much as i would like :)
<JaneW> ogra: did you have a prepared summary?
<flint> America interrupted all meaningful work here with Thanksgiving Holiday
<mhz> ogra: bis from here
<jelkner> i need to run (students arriving)... same time next week?
<ogra> JaneW, nope, i'll merge it together from the log ...
<JaneW> ogra: if so please dump it in a PM for me - if not I'll distill from the logs...
<highvoltage> can we talk about the website?
<JaneW> highvoltage: yes shoot
<ogra> after the meeting
<flint> jelkner, go get 'em tiger!
<JaneW> ogra: ok
<mhz> jelkner: did the how to work?
<JaneW> jelkner: bye, thanks
<ogra> ciao jelkner 
<kjcole> jelkner: Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel
<highvoltage> ok, let's do the biggest part first.
<jelkner> mhz: i'll look it over today, and get back to you
<mhz> ok
<highvoltage> Philip has convinced me that we should use Drupal for CMS on Edubuntu.
<flint> kjcole, Same Chat-Time, Same Chat-Channel :^)
<highvoltage> the biggest reason not to use it is because it's php based, and that can potentially open security vulnerabilities.
<highvoltage> but ubuntu already uses php for some of the sites.
<ogra> highvoltage, have fun with weekly php secuity updates ;)
<Yagisan> s/weekly/daily
<ogra> heh
<highvoltage> ogra: sure
<highvoltage> ogra: and it also runs alone on the edubuntu server, the risks are quite low, imo.
<highvoltage> hno73 has some great ideas with the wiki.
<ogra> if you got a security hole and little scriptkiddies put porn on the frontpage .....
<highvoltage> and while i think it will work perfectly with people familiar with wiki's, I don't think it will work well with our target market
<ogra> :)
<highvoltage> i.e. overworked underpaid teachers
<highvoltage> ogra: i'll know it was you :P
<ogra> hahaha
<mhz> highvoltage: has he wikied his ideas? (i'd love to read them)
<ogra> i have no clue about php :)
<highvoltage> mhz: yes, he has
<flint> highvoltage, johnathan, you nailed it with the market description.
<mhz> highvoltage: cool
<highvoltage> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSitePublishingTools
<ogra> i stay away from it as far as i can... dont fear me... fear 20yr younger kids ;)
<highvoltage> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
<highvoltage> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
<mhz> highvoltage: duh! I wasn't subscribed :(
<highvoltage> ogra: i avoid php too wherever i can, i do think drupal is the best tool for the job though
<highvoltage> flint: ;)
<JaneW> highvoltage: I have heard good things about it
<highvoltage> drupal will make it easier for us to manage the edubuntu documentation too.
<highvoltage> and for the web team to add content.
<ogra> highvoltage, http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=drupal
<mhz> highvoltage: we could have a meeting about moin or something else?
<highvoltage> wiki makes it easy too, but then we get back to our target market question
<ogra> you should monitor the above page if you use it
<mhz> highvoltage: drupal will not make it easier to remember PageNames :(
<kjcole> drupal, IIRC also gets grades ffrom the politically progressive crowd.  Don't know much about drupal other than a lot of the radical, hippie, Green, etc progressives seem to drift towards it.
<spacey> why not stick to the same as ubuntu?
<mhz> kjcole: that's true and good feature
<flint> kjcole, takes a hippie to know a hippie! :^)
<jsgotangco> heya
<mhz> hey jsgotangco 
<kjcole> flint: Tune in, turn on (your computer), drop out.
<flint> kjcole, I mean that in the nicest way (damn hippie :^)
<Yagisan> brb -sending kids^monsters to bed
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Hiya
<jsgotangco> are we meeting?
<mhz> yup
<flint> indeed
<kjcole> jsgotangco: yup.
<jsgotangco> ok
<highvoltage> geez, i must say, i'm a bit torn on this one (usually being a good decision maker)
<mhz> highvoltage: what decision?
<spacey> why not stick to the same as ubuntu?
<highvoltage> drupal will suite our needs very well, but like ogra says, we don't want to end up with a site with porn on the front page
<mhz> exactly
<highvoltage> mhz: drupal as CMS for edubuntu
<mhz> highvoltage: why can't we work closer to Moin wiki devels?
<ogra> if someone cares for weekly updates of the server drupal is fine ....
<spacey> its not really straight forwarded if edubuntu has everything completely different from ubuntu?
<ogra> the thing is that the security stuff requires someone to care for it all the time
<JaneW> seems to labour intensive
<mhz> highvoltage: this way we'll include what's missing
<highvoltage> ogra: does the ubuntu-updates cover the security vulnerabilities for php?
<JaneW> is there another good option?
* JaneW shudders ... that Kewl next gen thing?
<ogra> highvoltage, i dont know the priority of drupal here ... but it should, yes
<mhz> JaneW: sure, MoinMoin :)
<flint> highvoltage, my favorite dream app is a php interperter running in zope...
<ogra> JaneW, Kewl is something else ...
<Yagisan> well, if it isn't in main, someone needs to work full time on keeping it going, and secure
<ogra> and has no security monitoring at all ...
<highvoltage> so, let's try Drupal, if it gives us problems we change it.
<JaneW> ogra: from the demo I saw it seemed to have CMS stuff...?
<highvoltage> JaneW, ogra: you fine with that?
<flint> you have to keep php patched for moodle...
<JaneW> highvoltage: if you are prepared to own it and keep it up to date and running... ;)
<Yagisan> does anyone here know how to use Drupal ?
<ogra> JaneW, yes, but its php based and has no big community yet ... so vulnerabilitys wont be found or known ...
<ogra> there drupal is the better option
<mhz> highvoltage: what about the 'scroring' feature of Trac (Trac is based in moin)
<highvoltage> Yagisan: i've used drupal before
<spacey> what was wrong with moinmoin?
<JaneW> ogra: ok (for the record I don't like it anyway)
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> ogra: I'd rather go with drupal
<mhz> Yagisan: i tried it twice
<highvoltage> mhz: apparently drupal is quite good at those kind of things Philip talked alot about it. i think he called it taxonomy.
<mhz> twice =2 diff. sites
<ogra> JaneW, yes, but highvoltage will have a lot of work through it ...
<spacey> JaneW, you don't like what?
<mhz> highvoltage: yup
<Yagisan> ok - I just don't think you should use anything that you can't administrate
<JaneW> spacey: KEWL.nextGen
<mhz> highvoltage: taxonomy could easily be implemented in Moin, afailk
<ogra> JaneW, if he's fine with potential weekly updates etc, it shouldnt be a problem
<spacey> right, rings a bell, can't remember, and sounds nasty :P
<jsgotangco> mhz: let's not be too enthusaistic about Moin
<jsgotangco> :)
<mhz> jsgotangco: not possible for me :)
<highvoltage> JaneW, ogra: we can have it as a non-live site, proto.edubuntu.org with a htpassword, and once we're happy with it, it goes live.
<jsgotangco> mhz: i just find it creepy sometimes
<JaneW> highvoltage: cool
<flint> highvoltage, remember how you identify the pioneer, he is the guy with the arrow in his back...
* JaneW finds moin finctional, but not mindblowing
<ogra> JaneW, my only concern is that it needs someone who continiously has the time to fix stuff probably on a weekly base
<mhz> highvoltage: jsgotangco: have you ever subscried to a page in Drupal
* jsgotangco doesn't like Drupal
<spacey> whats wrong with the stuff which edubuntu uses atm?
<highvoltage> in the meantime, i'll educate myseld on the common problems with drupal, and php, and make sure our system starts out as secure as it can be
* jsgotangco is *still* a zope person
* Yagisan is still a plain html person - no sec worries there
* highvoltage would like to be a zope person
<JaneW> highvoltage:  would we have a regression path is we change our minds?
<JaneW> s/is/if
<flint> jsgotangco, oh thank you for the zope plug, and there is always plone!
* highvoltage is currently a cgi .py person
<jsgotangco> flint: including plone of course
<highvoltage> JaneW: we can have 2 backups
<flint> highvoltage, how external :^)
* spacey likes dokuwiki ;x
<JaneW> ok no more free advertising guys :P
<highvoltage> JaneW: we can more or less maintain our current site as a fallback,
<highvoltage> and we can copy and paste from the drupal site to a new one, if we want. 
<kjcole> Haven't personally tried anything but MoinMoin, but I've liked being able to understand the source I've looked at and tweak it a bit.  Rare for me.  (Done some of that with Mailman as well.)
<JaneW> ok, well then lets try and see how it goes, given that you have the time and inclination
<highvoltage> we could also save some pages as .html and link them up, but that's just yucky.
<highvoltage> JaneW: but yes, we can have fallbacks.
<highvoltage> (and we will)
<JaneW> kjcole: me too, but it seems it's to try and 'technical' for the averegae teacher, from what I hear
<mhz> kjcole: what can i say? i agree :)
<jsgotangco> i'll afk for 5 minutes go to rush to the drugstore
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Zope's a bit heavy for edubuntu, no?
<jsgotangco> kjcole: pretty much yeah
<flint> highvoltage, if you were really mad and blind with ambition, you would propose writing a python script which would update the current site to drupal.
<flint> you need zope if you are running schooltool
<highvoltage> flint: if i were really mand and blind with ambition, i would write a python app that replaces drupal entirely :)
<ogra> kjcole, why ? 
<spacey> are you mad and blind?
<flint> highvoltage, excellent point!  i admire the mad.
<highvoltage> spacey: only on wednesdays
<mhz> highvoltage: are you sure that working with Moin devel guys won't let us have the missing features (still understand which, though)
<spacey> :)
<flint> ok sleepy and blind with ambition
<highvoltage> mhz: it will, but at a time price.
<highvoltage> mhz: hno73 has lots of cool ideas, and have been following moinmoin quite extensively, and you can do everything we want to, but not quite yet.
<kjcole> ogra: In my limited experience, zope + plone just seemed to be "big", whereas moin seemed "small".  No actual empirical evidence (other than watching the install process for both in RHEL3.)
<highvoltage> some of the features take some extra coding, some are still being developed.
<highvoltage> what it comes down to currently, is the usability.
<highvoltage> that's more important to me now that functionality.
<ogra> kjcole, but zope/ploe is safe ...
<ogra> *plone
<spacey> thats what we have now right?
<highvoltage> i think it's better to have less features, but have a system that's easier to use.
<ogra> kjcole, and requires nearly no admin work after being set up ...
<highvoltage> spacey: ubuntu is partially plone
<mhz> highvoltage: the only features I understand Drupal have over Moin is Forum, Voting, and Polls. The rest I think are all implementavle. But IMHO, drupal has less total features than moin.
<JaneW> ok time's up, and we only discussed technical and webiste...
<JaneW> was there anything else?
<highvoltage> can we have more time?
<spacey> personally i don't like plone, but i do think it is quite nice to have the same system as ubuntu, not to confuse endusers with different systems
<JaneW> what happened in the ally meeting last week?
<flint> JaneW, I agree enough about the factory back to the product
<mhz> highvoltage: good point usability v/s funcioanlity
<kjcole> ogra: Safe is good. ;-) But after setting up both, I found myself regularly updating my Moin pages, and fearing Zope/Plone.  Three books on Zope, and no books on Moin.
<JaneW> highvoltage: sure, thing is I have a commitment at 15:10 each day, so the meetings need to be pretty punctual
<kjcole> `
<highvoltage> okay, for those interested, please join the web team on launchpad
<highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-website
<JaneW> please guys feel free to update the tables in http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MeetingRecords
<flint> JaneW, why so obsessive about lunch?
<JaneW> even if we don;t get to discussing the stuff it can still be in the status reprts
<kjcole> ogra: (I mean I have three books on Zope, and no books on Moin).  So from a non-techie point of view...
<highvoltage> also, from the TSF side, i'm working on some documentation for Edubuntu for our Edubuntu roll-out in April/June next year
<ogra> in a sidenote, edubuntu has a booth, a installtion workshop and i'll hold a talk at the linuxtag essen on saturday ...
<spacey> you should make it a subteam of edubuntu
<JaneW> flint: heh, no it's my turn to fetch kids :P
<mhz> JaneW: i'll reply to patrizzio
<flint> I want to beg forgiveness for not doing any documentation... I am a bad man!
<highvoltage> i will be putting this up to our website too, if you want to get involved there,
<JaneW> mhz: thank you
<highvoltage> be sure to join the doc group on launchpad too
<kjcole> Speaking of documentation.
<JaneW> flint: not good enough :P
<highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-doc
<flint> JaneW, do not eat your kids even if you are in africa, they frown on canabalisim... :^)
<mhz> JaneW: jdub edubuntu-es ML answer should be in my inbox, I guess, by no later than tomorrow (hopefully)
<highvoltage> flint: JaneW and I are African. we should know, shouldn't we?
<mhz> JaneW: I have created 2 teams in LP (EdubuntuChile and EdubuntuStudyContent)
<jsgotangco> please add me
<jsgotangco> :)
<JaneW> flint: but they are so tasty!
<flint> JaneW, I am certain that they are good enough to eat
<highvoltage> Yagisan: there's also an ltsp group: https://launchpad.net/people/ltspubuntu i haven't seen you there yet
<kjcole> Jelkner and I met Sunday, and started shreding our way through the tuxLab cookbook.  The bzr branch is up on Launchpad now, but this morning jelkner said "Let's not do this docbook stuff. Let's do lore."
<highvoltage> i can keep further info for next meeting.
<mhz> highvoltage: I'd be glad to jump in in that Edubuntu doc
<kjcole> He's very into lore.  
<jsgotangco> kjcole: please write as you will, I can easily move to docbook as needed
<highvoltage> mhz: excellent :) we'll manage that through our new drupal site, the proto site should be up within the next week
<jsgotangco> just focus on content
<flint> kjcole, openoffice 2.0 outputs docbook as a save option...
<jsgotangco> flint: not good enough
<jsgotangco> i'd rather have you guys write in ODF
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: do you prefer ODF?
<jsgotangco> and i'll slave on the actual code transformation
<mhz> highvoltage: grrrr, okis I'l try to be objective (very difficult :D )
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: flexible enough to move to other formats
* highvoltage didn't realise that
<JaneW> ok, it;s going to be very hard for me to document this weeks meeting...
<JaneW> are we agreed that we'll TRY drupal?
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Since I have the docbook and reST sources already, (for tuxLab Cookbook) and that's what we're basing off of, it seemed easier to edit the existing, rather than convert, but I'm not particularly committed to any particular method.
<highvoltage> JaneW: yes
<JaneW> and all accountability and responsibility for it is on highvoltage (no pressure) ;)
<mhz> JaneW: hmm, yes 
<highvoltage> JaneW: we will install it on a prototype platform, and put in content and evaluate how it works for us
<JaneW> cool, works for me
<jsgotangco> kjcole: let's focus on content first, the coding would be easier
<highvoltage> JaneW: then, if we're happy that it covers our old site, we move across to the drupal site for our main site
<jsgotangco> *trust me*
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Fine by me.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: i have a policy to never trust anyone who says "trust me"
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: lol ok i take that as a compliment
<jsgotangco> :D
<highvoltage> JaneW: meeting notes better?
<kjcole> In any case, we made good progress, hand-editing hard-copies, and trimmed quite a bit.
<mhz> JaneW: yesterday night, I mentioned to Seveas that not having edubuntu-es or anything regarding ubuntu, may cause newcomers a little problem IF we find no proper conduct in there (we can't slap or kick)
* JaneW must go back in 30 mins or so
<mhz> JaneW: so I'll ping him on friday if the person who registered edubunt-es doesn't show up, and Seveas is working on some 'guidlines'
<JaneW> mhz: I'll pick up in #edubuntu when I return ok?
<mhz> okis
<ogra> mhz, we normally dont slap or kick people ... 
<flint> highvoltage, my feeling about drupal  is "once a philosopher, twice a pervert"  what can it hurt to try...
<JaneW> mhz: sounds like you need a CoC
<mhz> ogra: hehehe, you know what i mean
<mhz> CoC?
<ogra> mhz, first target is to convince by talking ...
<highvoltage> flint: naked people is part of ubuntu's heritage
<flint> JaneW, enjoy the kidos i'm for coffee for 5 minutes...
<mhz> ogra: sure, that's why i said IF
<JaneW> flint: k, send me pics of yours!
<kjcole> mhz and another fellow (toxictoadz) have joined the Edubuntu Cookbook Cooks, and I'm probably looking at them for translation work...
<ogra> mhz, we kicked exactly one troll in #edubuntu it its whole existance .... after trying to convince 2 weeks
<kjcole> mhz, yes?
<highvoltage> wow, not bad.
<mhz> ogra: really? who?
<highvoltage> bill gates? he's been trolling a lot lately.
<Seveas> ghe, in #ubuntu the kick rate is somewhat highrt :)
<mhz> kjcole: sorry, lost me... what?
<jsgotangco> i remember that....
<ogra> mhz, kicking should be the very last resort ... and you should be able to contact the owner within this timeframe
<flint> I was hoping to be elected troll...
<ogra> mhz, she was called JenniferX
<mhz> ogra: indeed
<highvoltage> meeting finished?
<flint> I am a troll befor coffee. back in 5
<ogra> meeting finished !
<spacey> ok:)
<ogra> thanks all
<kjcole> mhz, I think I recently approved you in the Edubuntu Cookbook Cooks... I'm figuring you for translation work.  Am I right?
* highvoltage goes back to idle in #edubuntu
<ogra> lets move over to #edubuntu for general chatter
<mhz> kjcole: oh, yes
<mhz> kjcole: and if possible, KISS docs
* spacey to work
* mhz moves to #edubuntu
<ogra> and make this room free for the others ...
* jsgotangco starts to pack bags
* kjcole is off to get food and head to the office.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC:  DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<Seveas> 8 bytes of topic saved :o)
<mhz> :)
<lamont> ogra: livefs build is now scheduled (missed one spot), but it doesn't build atm
<ogra> lamont-away, because of the uninstallables ? 
<lamont-away> yes
<ogra> ok, so this should be fine with flight 2 preparation ... apart from kino we have the same uninstallables ubuntu has ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-06
<cyphase> hey everyone
<ggarcia> hello
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 01 Dec 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<melalcoolique> hi
<pitti> Hi
<ogra> ho
<fabbione> hi
<JaneW> hi
<seb128> Hi
<doko> hi
<jbailey> hi
<ogra> JaneW, you broke it... that should have been an "ho"
<ogra> :)
<jbailey> Are we dwarves now?
<Mithrandir> ho ho ho
<ogra> heh
<ogra> jbailey, it were at least seven ...
<HiddenWolf> Mithrandir is Santa. :)
<JaneW> ogra: I am not a ho! :P
<Mithrandir> we're almost 30 seconds late now.
<ogra> JaneW, oh, sorry ... my german mind ....
<jbailey> Late as in the late dentarthurdent?
<JaneW> ogra: ;)
<ogra> always forget about the several meanings of certain english words
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> is mdz here?
<ogra> he's next door
<JaneW> we have appologies from mvo (hockey practise) and infinity (not feeling well) 
<JaneW> fabbione was going to belate... but seems to be here...
<fabbione> i don't "belate"
<fabbione> ok?
<fabbione> ;)=
<JaneW> sorry - I am tired already...
<HiddenWolf> He does have a beard, judging from the smiley. :)
<JaneW> (had 5 kids here earlier)
<dholbach> fabbione doesn't belate as much as the kernel has no bugs, right fabbione? :)
<ogra> :)
<mdz> good morning
<JaneW> hi mdz
<ogra> hey mdz
<fabbione> dholbach: right :)
<JaneW> we have appologies from mvo (hockey practice) and infinity (not feeling well) 
<mdz> is everyone else here?
<ogra> we pretend to, yes
<jbailey> Just us dwarves. =)
<JaneW> I got advance updates from both, so will represent them
<ogra> hehe
<Keybuk> I'm not.
<Keybuk> Kamion isn't back yet?
* Mithrandir throws jbailey his pickaxe
<JaneW> is kamion here?
* pitti raises hand
<JaneW> and BenC?
* ogra puts on his helmet to not get hit by flying axes
* iwj decides to have it in the other client.  Excuse any confusion.
<JaneW> I had no word from daniels this week...
<mdz> daniels is on holiday this week
<mdz> Kamion,seb128,doko,Riddell,BenC: ping
<JaneW> seb is here
<Riddell> I'm at OSDL just now, will try to keep an eye on this window
<JaneW> and doko
<seb128> mdz: ping
<seb128> ups
<seb128> pong
<doko> pong
<Riddell> daniels is somewhere around, jdub is about to give a talk
<Kamion> hello
<JaneW> hi Kamion 
* Kamion was off buying a car, just got back
<ogra> wow
<dholbach> Kamion: can we congratulate? :)
<ogra> family car ?
<janimo> or a kamion?
<Kamion> perhaps somewhere where it isn't hideously off-topic ;)
<JaneW> are we ready to start?
<mdz> missing only BenC
<ogra> BenC is still missing ...
<mdz> sent him an SMS
<ogra> so lets go bottom to top today then :)
<mdz> let's start rather than waiting
<iwj> start> Yes please :-).
<Mithrandir> ogra: community people first, wasn't it?
<ogra> heh, yup ...
<mdz> by reverse order of first name, then ;-)
<mdz> Mithrandir: I think you're first
<Kamion> yes, community first, we had problems last week
<Kamion> because people couldn't stay around for the whole meeting
<JaneW> is sivang, lathiat or krstic here?
<ogra> is sivang here ? 
<iwj> If they're not here now we can slot them in if they happen to turn up.
<dholbach> i pinged lathiat
<mdz> Kamion: people who can't stay around for the meeting can send in status updates via email if that's all they want to do
<JaneW> those 3 are the only 3 on the list so far, and mjg59...
<iwj> They might want to talk about their items.
<mdz> we're 1/5th through the meeting and have accomplished nothing so far.  time to get started.
<mdz> Mithrandir: go
<JaneW> I think we should go on
<Mithrandir> openoffice-amd64: no progress
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: bootchart-udeb uploaded, main inclusion report is written and review asked for, will add to d-i lists once it's in main.  Need to investigate size of bootchart + deps for live seed, we might want that in.
<Mithrandir> one-true-path: no progress
<Mithrandir> livecd-unionfs: no progress
<Mithrandir> media-integrity-check: in the archive, waiting for syslinux boot menu resolution, but looking good.  Might need some template adjustments
<Mithrandir> network-authentication: no progress, I've been thinking about how to do it, but nothing solid yet.
<Mithrandir> This week: a lot of faff and merges, got dragged into a bunch of d-i stuff when some kbd-chooser breakage was discovered and I spent time cleaning that up, live-cd-performance and media-integrity-check are both looking good and approximately on schedule.
<Mithrandir> Next week: some vacation, Fix up the d-i stuff I've been working on (kbd-chooser). Look at getting one-true-path implemented.
<Mithrandir> Blockers: media-integrity-check blocked on syslinux menu, but apart from that, nothing
<Mithrandir> s/Blockers/Blocked on/
<mdz> Mithrandir: livecd-unionfs is approximately blocked on simplified-livecd
<Kamion> (the kbd-chooser stuff is needed for ubuntu-express-base-system)
<mdz> Mithrandir: it is looking increasingly like I won't have time to do that properly.  how do you feel about taking it on?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I haven't read the spec, give me a few minutes to skim it?
<mdz> JaneW: Mithrandir and me to discuss simplified-livecd later
<mdz> seb128: you're next
<JaneW> ok
<seb128> menus-revisited: no update this week (todo: oo.o2 to upload)
<seb128> rhythmbox-ipod: fixed libgpod according to pitti's comments, got it promoted, updated rhythmbox to the new 0.9.2 using it
<seb128> faster-gnome-startup: gconf transition is done/ok
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: started to look on changes, spoke with desktop team/upstream about some of them.
<seb128> video-playback: no update this week (still waiting for gst0.10)
<seb128> misc: desktop bug triage, syncs, fixed GNOME packages for firefox1.5, some new GNOME updates/sync with Debian
<seb128> next week: dapper-desktop plan, continue the desktop bug triage	
<mdz> seb128: what remains for faster-gnome-startup?
<seb128> not a lot
<mdz> to be finished next week then?
<seb128> probably
<mdz> ok
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<Keybuk> udev-roadmap: done, uploaded, the big bugs shaken out.
<Keybuk> hardware-activation: beginning, alsa, hdparm and networking to become udev events; ntpdate to become if-up.d script.  those are the most tested and easy to do.
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: planned on my whiteboard, need to dump onto wiki.  mostly moving rcS stuff about a bit and removing some extraneous messages
<Keybuk> network-magic: no progress.
<Keybuk> misc: one merge remaining (sysvinit, to be done with streamlined-boot).  dpkg conffile handling still to fix.
<iwj> Do you want me to `help' with the dpkg conffile thing ?
<mdz> Keybuk: remember to get that -devel-announce email out
<Keybuk> yup, I'll send that out this evening
<mdz> Keybuk: that should go out today; we've already broken things
<mdz> ok
<Keybuk> iwj: I already have the fix, just need to get around to testing and uploading
<mdz> ok
<mdz> ogra: next
<iwj> OK.  In general feel free to bother me.
<ogra> * thin-client-sound: initscript for the client side and package work done locally, spec pending.
<ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: no further work yet, spec still in drafting.
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: was waiting for the new initramfs/udev/kernel architecture for modlue blacklist testing, spec pending.
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: mainly bug hunting in the new initramfs, works fine now, thanks Keybuk, spec pending.
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no further work done yet, package ready so far, need images.
<ogra> * general: waved in the multiarch-client patch and uploaded bzr branch for mdz inspection. gobby main inclusion report for edubuntu done (looks like we'll get gobby 0.3.0 exclusively for ubuntu according to pkern (upstream and DD)). 
<ogra>  last weeks goals: requested changes to ldm done and sent to mdz, thin-client sound initscript done, packge data for ltsp-sound (changes to control and rules file) added (locally not yet online) in bzr, etherboot: mknbi seems not to produce usable images (only tested with breezy yet) needs further investigation (also with the new kernel), liveCD filesystem prepared but waits for ubuntu-desktop/edubuntu-desktop being installable, xscreensaver merge
<ogra>  done, selected hacks in xscreensaver-data are working with gnome-screensaver now. mailed gnome-screensaver upstream (will provide a patch for lockscreen), edubuntu ready for flight2 (considering to drop kino from the desktop since video on ltsp clients sucks), all merge bugs done o far, will propose to drop gtk-qt-engines its not supportable for 3 years, upstream works very slow and doesnt fix bugs (not even the ones with patches) it seems, gnome
<ogra> -screensaver not in main yet, will wait until after flight 2 and for (#3044).
<ogra> * next weeks goals: find out the bugs and fix the Xorg autodetection on thin clients, finish the ltsp sound stuff, fix what mdz sends back to me of my ldm/multiarch stuff, do the xscreensaver hack split for #3044, finally get gnome-screnesaver to main, inspect the mknbi/etherboot problem, get the liveCD ready and test edubuntu fledgling1 (dapper flight 2) live and install, start working on hwdb-client changes, inspect changes that have to be done 
<ogra> to edubuntu-artwork for dapper.
<mdz> ogra: isn't there a spec associated with gnome-screensaver integration (not the image one)?
<ogra> mdz, we decided at ubz that we'll drop it
<seb128> ogra: could you use screensaver-list when you mail gnome-screensaver upstream?
<ogra> since is a general item thats done every release
<ogra> seb128, will do
<seb128> cool
<mdz> ogra: we who?  please keep it active for tracking purposes
<mdz> there are several subsidiary tasks associated with it
<ogra> mdz, JaneW, jdub, etc ...
<ogra> mdz, the spec was about the lock dialog.... where there was consensus that it just should be reverted upstream
<ogra> i.e. look like the breezy one or like it looked before they made changes for us
<mdz> JaneW: ogra, me, sbalneav to discuss local devices.  it doesn't look like this is going to make it for dapper
<mdz> ogra: I mean the transition from xscreensaver to gnome-screensaver
<ogra> mdz, yup ...
<JaneW> mdz: erk, ok
<mdz> JaneW: it's big and complicated and still not well specified yet
<mdz> JaneW: do you have a snippet from mvo?
<JaneW> yes 
<Kamion> ogra: (alpha CD branding for derivatives typically tracks the real one to avoid hideous confusion on cdimage, so I'd prefer "Edubuntu Flight CD 2")
<JaneW> mvo: * the usual dance of mail/bug triage/irc 
<JaneW> * upload new apt/python-apt/gdebi + all depenencies (apt abi break)
<JaneW> * gdebi is in the archive, that means one bit of the 3rdPartyPackages
<JaneW>   spec is implemented (still needs testing)
<JaneW>   [Support for packages by third parties in external repos] 
<JaneW> * build a package for unattended-upgrades script, not yet integrated
<JaneW>   into the APT::Periodic system
<JaneW>   [Unattended package upgrades] 
<JaneW> * started with the dist-upgrade tool, extended/cleaned up
<JaneW>   update-manager (u-m is responsible for detecting new releases and
<JaneW>   downloading the actual script)
<JaneW>   it detects new releases now, can download/display release notes and 
<JaneW>   download/extract the upgrade script tarball (+ cleaning up
<JaneW>   afterwards). 
<JaneW> * some more bits of python-apt supported where needed for the 
<JaneW>   update-manager changes
<JaneW> * cmd-not-found magic work with zyga, we have a package now for it, a
<JaneW>   (small) patch for bash was submited to make integration smoother
<JaneW> * changed language selector to implement the LanguagePackVsSupport
<JaneW>   spec (together with pitti)
<JaneW> * update-notifier does not start when there is a admin group on the
<mdz> JaneW: please ask him to organize by spec name for clarity next time
<JaneW>   system but the user is not part of it, implemented my parts of the 
<JaneW>   HideAdminTools spec [HideAdminTools] 
<JaneW> Will do:
<JaneW> * more work on the dist-upgrade tool, the actual dist-upgrade code
<JaneW>   comes next
<JaneW> * 3rd party packages channel work
<JaneW> * integrate unattended upgrades script into the APT::Periodic system
<JaneW> mdz: yes agreed
<ogra> Kamion, fine with me ... 
<mdz> ok, sounds good
<mdz> doko: ready?
<doko> this week:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: gcc updates (3.4.5 final, 4.0 in a state allowing KDE to build on hppa), amd64-biarch blocked by glibc
<doko> - python-roadmap: python merges, started python-central update
<doko> - openoffice.org: started merging / updating to version 2.0.1.
<doko> - java-roadmap: merges done by charles, two left.
<doko> next week:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch, when ready
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central, start converting packages in main, get rid of python2.3 (start it ...)
<doko> - openoffice.org: try to build a first package. feedback for gnome-integration needed
<Mithrandir> doko: are you doing the ooo-amd64 stuff as well?  It's a fairly easy change, I'd imagine?
<pitti> doko: what's the last point about?
<mdz> doko: what's python-central?
<pitti> doko: build OO.o 2.0.1?
<doko> Mithrandir: I can do that, but after the i386 package
<seb128> doko: I'll send you a patch for oo.o2/menus-revisited, ping me before doing an upload
<doko> mdz: python-central let's us get rid of the pythonX.Y packages
<Mithrandir> doko: I can do it if you're busy, but if you could ping me when you have the i386 package ready, that'd be useful?
<doko> Mithrandir: yes, I'll ping you, if I have something
<doko> pitti: yes
<dholbach> seb128: i think gnome integration is more about clipboard functionality, or is that resolved already?
<Mithrandir> doko: thanks.
<Kamion> pythonX.Y-* that is ...
<seb128> dholbach: I don't use oo.o2 and I don't know anything about it, so dunno if they fixed their bugs :)
<pitti> that should make it easier to drop python versions in the future?
<doko> exactly
<mdz> pitti: add and drop, yes
<pitti> yay
<mdz> pitti: see python-roadmap
<dholbach> doko: what feedback for gnome-integration are you looking for?
<doko> dholbach: just email to mdz
<mdz> hmm?
<dholbach> i don't fully understand
<seb128> dholbach: clipboard is a fd.o spec btw
<dholbach> seb128: that was just one issue i could think of
<dholbach> (having read bugs about it :()
<seb128> dholbach: I don't know what you are talking about, just replying to your comment about clipboard issue ... 
<mdz> Mithrandir: you seem to have 5 merges outstanding; anything blocking those from being completed this week?
<Keybuk> Riddell has 17 merges outstanding, 7 of which date to before dapper opened
<mdz> doko: likewise for you, 5 merges
<ogra> i'm working on kino, will update the bug
<doko> mdz: no, two. three are pending
<Kamion> I only see one for Mithrandir
<Kamion> unless my search is b0rked
<mdz> doko: they aren't done until they're in the archive
<mdz> Kamion: mailman, sane-backends, xml-crimson, ia32-libs, courier
<doko> mdz: syncs are requested
<Mithrandir> mdz: no, nothing blocking that.  One of them is a FTBFS when merging (xml-crimson), but the others are easy enough.
* ajmitch has no main merges if you need someone else to assign them to :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok
<mdz> mjg59: you here?
<Kamion> I'm searching for alias matches ^merge-
<mdz> Kamion: I used alias substring "merge-"
<pitti> Kamion: I just search for 'Debian', that's usually quite fine
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm debian maintainer (or co-maintainer) for mailman and ia32-libs, so those aren't crucial, but I'll get them done anyway.
<doko> gjdoc is blocked (FTBFS), will do openoffice-dictionaries after the oo2 packages
* ogra just grabbed kino from Riddell 
<mdz> doko: can gjdoc be resolved tomorrow?
<doko> Mithrandir: ia32-libs is/should be blocked by amd64 glibc
<Kamion> thanks to people for responding to my no doubt incessant nagging about merges
<doko> mdz: no, it's a compiler regression, fixed in 4.1
<jbailey> doko, Which is a next-week task.  It's in my update when my turn comes. =)
<mdz> Kamion: thanks for incessantly nagging
<mdz> doko: argh
<mdz> doko: please note in bugzilla if you haven't already
<doko> mdz: already done
<mdz> ok
<mdz> pitti: go
<pitti> hide-admin-tools-to-users: DONE: design decision was taken, sudo changes reverted; discussed further actions with seb128, who wants to do/coordinate the rest
<pitti> belocs-locales: DONE: fully implemented, new glibc, locales, and langpacks are in the archive
<pitti> language-pack-vs-support: DONE: mvo implemented langselector changes; PLAN: installer needs string change, then it's complete (something for Kamion, bug is filed)
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: PLAN: much harder than expected in the spec, start upstream discussion about hal support and detecting unconfigured printers
<pitti> reducing-duplication: DONE: db4.1, krb4, are in universe, ucs-snmp about to go (if the hppa buildd condescends to build cyrus21-imapd); checked db4.2 removal, it's hard
<pitti> gstreamer-audio-backend: BLOCK: gstreamer 0.10 for creating the alsadmixsink
<pitti> automated-problem-reports: BLOCK: approval from Keybuk, would appreciate opinions from other people, too (elmo, Kamion, mdz) since this is very intrusive
<pitti> merges: DONE: non-blocked merges are finished, remaining ones are stalled by external reasons; BLOCK: tbird l10n packages for tbird 1.5, cdrecord for upstream version regression
<pitti> langpacks-desktopfiles: nothing done, no time; PLAN: zyga has some patches, apply and test them; if performance regressions are negigible, upload, else this requires further discussion
<mdz> pitti,seb128: hide-admin was not on seb128's list earlier
<pitti> rosetta-firefox-support, pmount-uber-alles, firewall: no change since last week
<pitti> plan for tomorrow: catch up with the huge amount of main inclusion reports, people start killing me about them
<ogra> mdz, it was in breezy ...
<mdz> seb128: are you going to take it over?
<ogra> SoC afaik ...
<pitti> mdz: he wanted to do the rest...
<seb128> mdz: there is a small gnome-menus patch to update and desktop files to change than is a 10s job that I can do during normal upload
<seb128> s/than/that/
<mdz> seb128: ok, just wasn't on your list for next week
<pitti> mdz: the spec should be reassigned to seb128 now, maybe?
<seb128> yeah, forgot about it
<mdz> pitti: yes, ok
<mdz> pitti: if launchpad lets you, do it, otherwise bug me
<pitti> mdz: and belocs-locales should be mine
<pitti> mdz: I can't reassign
<mdz> pitti: ok, bug me about that later too
<pitti> will do
* JaneW can reassign
<mdz> pitti: decision has been taken to defer automated-problem-reports
<pitti> ok
<JaneW> let me know what changes from who to who and I'll do it.
<mdz> pitti: if there is a third party interested in working on it as a bounty, great, otherwise it's too much
<mdz> pitti: ok, bug JaneW instead :-)
<pitti> mdz: right, but it would be nice to approve the spec
<mdz> pitti: yes, but we have other priorities right no
<mdz> w
<pitti> mdz: but without an approved spec we can't even bounty it
<mdz> pitti: please note in bugzilla status whiteboard where merges are blocked
<pitti> mdz: ok, will do
<mdz> Riddell: there?
<Riddell> briefly
<Riddell> KDE 3.5 packaging and merges and libstdc++ transition and rosetta support
<seb128> pitti: is that the spec about getting debug backtraces automagically?
<Riddell> next week, finishing all that off especially merges, update seeds, simplify-kde
<pitti> seb128: yes
<Riddell> also moving kubuntu-express to review seems to have slipped my mind so I'll make sure to remember that
<seb128> pitti: grumpf, that would really make bug work easier to get this one done
<mdz> Riddell: you have ~16 outstanding merges, need to get those completed ASAP
<Riddell> mdz: scheduled foras soon as I get back
<mdz> Riddell: there are also unresolved kubuntu-related anastacia items
<ogra> or assigned to someone else 
<mdz> Riddell: and remember to merge ubuntu->kubuntu seeds
<dholbach> Riddell: you want me to help with the merges?
<Kamion> mdz: pitti and I have been doing that fairly regularly as part of things we're doing anyway (like getting other stuff out of main, or udev-roadmap, etc.)
<pitti> mdz: I merged the seeds today, FYI
<Riddell> mdz: amarok is waiting on libarts-akode moving to main
<Kamion> (not to say Riddell shouldn't be doing it routinely, but)
<Riddell> mdz: the rest are new versions of kdepim libraries
<Riddell> merging seedsis included in my "update seeds" items
<mdz> Riddell: libarts1-akode | 4:3.5-rc2-0ubuntu1 |        dapper | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc
<mdz> Riddell: please follow up and see what's happening with it
<pitti> Riddell: promoting gstreamer0.8-mad will be hard, since we want to get libmad0 to universe
<Riddell> pitti: it won't be needed that's fixed in the new amarok which as mdz suggests I'll see what's happening with
<ogra> promoting  gstreamer0.8-mad ???
<pitti> ah, ok
<mdz> ogra: no
<pitti> ogra: anastacia
<ogra> phew
<mdz> ok
<mdz> jbailey: ready?
<jbailey> * LocalesThatDontSuck: glibc parts done.  Need to figure out best way to handle locales bug reports.  My guess is forward them to Danis Barbier for now and coordinate a merge monthly or so with pitti.
<jbailey> * ToolchainRoadmap: Recovered from last weeks breakage, glibc built everywhere now.  libc6-i386 coming next week for amd64.  LaMont to get back to me whether ia64 wants it, or if they're dropping i386 support.
<jbailey> * Other: Need to go through bugzilla and punt anything that's not glibc or lkh related to other people.
<pitti> ogra: well, the gstreamer package is *absolutely* harmless
<ogra> pitti, still a patented codec ...
<mdz> jbailey: is there a glibc merge pending or no?
<mdz> jbailey: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19180
<jbailey> mdz, Yes.  It will come after all the changes that we're doing.  The changes are blocking other people, the merge isn't.
<mdz> jbailey: ok, so just glibc biarch, glibc merge, administrivia and you're clear
<jbailey> Yup
<mdz> great
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: have applied (without trouble) patches from RH to make Firefox use Gnome MIME handling, but these only solve (a fairly small) part of Firefox's MIME problems.  Work will have to continue.  I am currently constructing another interim Firefox release for Dapper development to help with issues found so far.
<iwj> AutomatedTesting: Discussion in debian-* seems to have finished.  Have spoken to Robert Collins about wider testing arrangements and am waiting for a straw man design idea from him.  *BLOCKED*  I hope to start implementation next week.
<iwj> Launchpad Client Certs (https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/SSLCertificateAuthentication): Proof of concept successful and written up on wiki (with full instructions, example config, etc.).  Nothing more to do from my end (hopefully) except support Launchpad people with development and deployment.
<iwj> ThinClientLocalDevices: spec is still in Drafting.  *BLOCKED*
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<iwj> Firefox maintenance: See above.  The current package has several problems.  I'm aiming for a new release on Friday (tomorrow) which will have fixes for whatever I can get done by then.
<iwj> Others: no more ancient 7.07 gs-esp horror; not seen many problems with gs-gpl and gs-esp 8.15; yay.  Merged mozilla (security fix), no problem.
<mdz> iwj: can the firefox patches land in dapper without waiting for further work?
<mdz> iwj: it would be good to see how that looks
<iwj> Yes.  The RH patch will be in my upload, I hope tomorrow.
<mdz> iwj: re: automated testing, are you saying you're blocked on robert?
<iwj> You're probably going to be disappointed.  It doesn't change the dialogue or anything; it just changes where it gets the data from.
<iwj> Yes, blocked on Robert.
<iwj> The RH patch is relatively sane and I'm happy to carry it.  So we'll definitely get at least that far.
<mdz> iwj: you have only one merge remaining (mozilla), is it blocked?
<iwj> I might try to tart it up to make it a #ifdef for upstream.
<iwj> Err, I must have forgotten to close the bug.
<iwj> Unless I forgot to upload it too.  I will check.
<mdz> using the right apps would be a pretty good start
<mdz> for firefox mime
<iwj> mdz: Right.  It'll use the Gnome ones _most of the time_ but it's still on crack.
<mdz> urgh
<mdz> we'll do the best we can with it; if there's a lot of code to be written, it may not be feasible for us
<iwj> It uses all of (a) HTTP Content-Type (b) filename extension (c) file contents, in bizarre ways.
<mdz> automated testing would take precedence in that case
<iwj> Absolutely.  I don't want any giant 50000-line patch nightmare.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> fabbione: next?
<fabbione> yup
<fabbione> * server-candy: still waiting for jdub to make the mailing list, otherwise no progress since last week.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: made local packages of new ocfs2 tools. need testing.
<fabbione> * installer-volume-management: Implemented. There is one (minor corner case) bug that is giving me headacke to fix. Otherwise it ROCKS.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: blocked by udev till today (possibly upcoming d-i changes).
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
<fabbione> * last week: done with my merging, one (zlib) is stalled on some libc6-i386-dev-something.
<fabbione> * next week: try to kill the last installer-volume-management bug, cluster love to the tools we already have and server-candy full speed.
<mdz> libc6-i386-dev-something?
<elmo> fabbione: file the list request in RT, you don't need to wait on jdub
<fabbione> mdz: i couldn't remember the exact name of the package, it's the libc6 biarch transition jbailey mentioned before
<doko> fabbione: no, just make it libc6-i386-dev | ia32-libs-dev
<mdz> fabbione: if you don't get the list by Monday, ping me about it
<fabbione> elmo: ah ok!
<mdz> fabbione: or better, what elmo said
<fabbione> elmo: i wasn't aware of that.
<fabbione> elmo: will do asap
<fabbione> mdz: thanks. 
<fabbione> doko: dude. you told me to wait and i am waiting
<doko> fabbione: even better :)
<mdz> fabbione,doko: ok, you two can discuss that out of band. we're running short on time
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> i am done
<jbailey> mdz, doko, fabbione: libc6-dev-i386 for consistancy with other biarch libc6-dev packages.
<mdz> thanks fabbione, next daniels
<Kamion> vacation
<mdz> JaneW: do you have an update from daniels?
<mdz> Kamion: yes, this week
<JaneW> mdz: nope sorry
<Kamion> right
<mdz> ok
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach>  * power-management-preferences: added explanations about the NEW approach, that mjg59, pitti and desrt agreed on, asked pitti and mjg59 to have a look, didn't contact hughsie yet, although he made some notes on the wiki page
<dholbach>  * inclusion-of-docs: fixed a couple of bugs with mdke, uploaded the new version, will continue with uploading new versions twice a week, mdke agreed on making the community aware of possibilities in doc proofreading/checking/participating
<dholbach>  * bugs-best-practices: added some notes to the Bugs/ pages, community tested them on the last Bug Day and they seem to have "worked"
<dholbach>  * a11y-*: apart from the meeting and the new mailing list (thanks jeff), no progress :-(
<dholbach>  * this week: huge amounts of bug triage, community stuff (desktop team, motu), std allocator change
<dholbach>  * next week: more bug triage (we will get bugzilla clean next week :)), organise a motu review day, tackle DesktopTeam/TODO, more merges? investigate with slomo a bit more on formal-test-plans
<mdz> dholbach: is mdke doing the trivial packaging work now?
<dholbach> they are focusing on docs
<dholbach> i helped to get all the path transitions done and the package out the door
<dholbach> it builds and is nice now (apart from having no translations)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> dholbach: is there work to be done on bugs-best-practices or is it basically done?
<dholbach> basically done
<mdz> dholbach: you have one merge open in bugzilla; is it blocked?
<mdz> gtkmm2.4
<dholbach> yeah, i'll do that one
<mdz> ok, this week please
<dholbach> right
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Finished and uploaded first cut at partman.deb, which shockingly seems to almost work if you know how to drive it.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-*, ue-*: niemeyer and I sorted out last week's svn2bzr bug, so I nearly have a working import; just waiting for Guadalinex to actually make their dump sufficiently up-to-date now (pinged them again today). No other progress.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Reviewed gfxboot patch; found it hideous and infeasible to port to 3.11 myself. Talked to SuSE folks about getting a gfxboot patch for syslinux 3.11; I have this in my hands now and it's much better and doesn't break text mode at least, but I haven't quite had time to set up a graphical mode yet.
<Kamion> cd-build-process: No progress (nothing urgent left here).
<Kamion> misc: Finished my merges. Lots of work on the big move to 2.6.15, which has consumed a big fraction of my time this week. I have a working installer nearly ready to go now; the live CD will take a little longer to get working again since we're now using initramfs in d-i. Minor bug-fixes to pcmciautils, which I packaged week-before-last.
<Kamion> next-week: Finish move of installer and live CD to 2.6.15; upload gfxboot and get it enabled by default; try to glue debconffilter onto the front of partman (this is pretty much a torture test of whether our UE implementation plans will work); prod Guadalinex until we can finally get the UE bzr import done and move on; archive-copier changes for language-pack-vs-support. With any luck, Flight CD 2 next Thursday or so.
<mdz> Kamion: the live CD is about to get a shakeup anyway (and need to be built differently)
<mdz> JaneW: Kamion should be in on the chat with Mithrandir and myself about that
<Kamion> right, but I need to make this one work for Flight CD 2
<mdz> right
<doko> Kamion: I'm not sure I have OOo2 installable next Thursday
<Kamion> incremental development and all that
<Kamion> doko: what's wrong?
<mdz> not building on all architectures perhaps?
<doko> Kamion: I would have to rebuild the current beta packages, that would be possible
<Kamion> please prioritise that if possible; we need an installable system on a regular basis
<mdz> agreed
<mdz> need to move on
<mdz> BenC: you're up
<BenC> * DONE: Get 2.6.15 as main kernel (this has been the bulk of my work)
<BenC> * specs done: initramfs-updates, implemented kernel side to use update-initramfs script
<BenC> * specs dependent on 2.6.15 kernel: ubuntu-server-kernel, testing-server-hardware, preventing-hardware-regressions, udev-roadmap
<BenC> * goals for next week: ubuntu-server-kernel, and start of preventing-hardware-regressions framework
<ogra> edubuntu doesnt even have a working livefs yet, would be nice to get it done by flight2
<Kamion> ogra: similarly blocked, I imagine
<doko> Kamion: ok, I'll probably delay python-roadmap in favour of OOo2
<mdz> BenC: you have two outstanding merges, is there anything blocking them from getting done this week?
<ogra> Kamion, but you already had fight 1 
<BenC> what merges?
<ogra> i skipped that one
<ogra> +l
<mdz> BenC: kernel-wedge and kernel-package, assigned to you in bugzilla for some time
<fabbione> mdz: we might not merge them at all
<mdz> BenC: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19041 http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19217
<BenC> I didn't know anything about it, so no
<BenC> but I can get on them this week, no problem
<mdz> ok, at both of the last meetings we've talked about the need to finish off merges
<mdz> needs to get done this week
<mdz> fabbione: you and BenC can work that out and let me know if there is a reason not to do it
<BenC> should be easy enough
<mdz> ok,
<mdz> JaneW: update from adam?
<fabbione> mdz: yup. it slept from my sight
<ogra> mdz, no chmj ?
<JaneW> yes
<JaneW> infinity: * last week: lost of work on linux-restricted-modules updating / fixing,
<JaneW> and getting to work with new kernels; sorting patches for a big PHP
<JaneW> security rollup (nothing big about the individual bugs, just that we
<JaneW> have enough piled up to do a bit release now); general buildd, merge,
<JaneW> and bugfix work.
<JaneW> * uplash/initramfs-*: Scott has released his lock on initramfs, so all
<JaneW> of these things will head into full-tilt next week.  Expect to see
<JaneW> progress on all but (maybe) thin client usplash (that will likely be the
<JaneW> week after -- ogra, talk to me about this, the spec itself doesn't even
<JaneW> exist yet, and we should draft one).
<JaneW> * my outstanding merges: portmap was taken by Mithrandir,
<JaneW> initramfs-tools is currently heavily forked from Debian, and may not be
<JaneW> "merged", so much as cherry-picked to and from, mozilla-thunderbird is
<JaneW> waiting on my talking with the Debian maintainer about packaging Tbird
<JaneW> 1.5 ASAP, php5 will be re-merged with the set of security uploads
<JaneW> mentioned above, enigmail is waiting on the thunderbird 1.5 decision.
<JaneW> Feel free to fire up MOM again, as those (except portmap) are all (in my
<JaneW> mind) false positives for "outstanding". :)
<ogra> i wonder what we should spec about usplash on thin clients ? its only turning on the splash flag on the kernel commandline 
<mdz> ogra: chmj is not present
<ogra> no special needs
<ogra> mdz, i see
<mdz> ogra: agreed, just turn it on and see if it works
<ogra> it does
<ogra> using it since two weeks here
<ogra> had timeout probs tht were solved with new initramfs
<mdz> ogra: if it works, let's just turn it on
<mdz> ok, we're out of time
<mdz> if there's anything else to discuss, mail JaneW to get it on the agenda for the next meeting
<Keybuk> should we turn mom back on yet, or leave it off until next week?
<mdz> we need to start on time next week
<ogra> mdz, its on in my ldm branch ...
<mdz> Keybuk: leave off until remaining merges are complete
<Keybuk> ok
<mdz> ogra: ok, I'll get to that next week most likely
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<ogra> fine :)
<dholbach> thanks matt
<fabbione> thanks
<JaneW> I will try to get the rport out during tomorrow, please update your estimates of time etc
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<seb128> thank you
<doko> see you tomorow
<pitti> thanks
<iwj> Goodnight all.  Pub for me now :-).
<pitti> iwj: enjoy
<dholbach> good night guys, i'm off too
<Mithrandir> mdz, Kamion: should we do the live cd discussion now, or are you busy?
<pitti> good night
<Kamion> now is kind of bad for me
<Kamion> tomorrow evening maybe?
<JaneW> next week's meeting is at 02:00... *shudder*
<Mithrandir> that's terrible for me.
<Kamion> hm
<Keybuk> (admin note: they're having another go at fixing my phone line tomorrow, so I'll be around very early in the morning and evening but not most of the day [i'll be working though and contactable on my mobile in emergencies] )
<ajmitch> JaneW: 02:00 UTC?
<JaneW> ajmitch: uh huh!
<Kamion> well, I think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SimplifiedLiveCD is reasonably complete; specific questions on that?
<ajmitch> JaneW: oh that's a good time for me, except I'm not on the list of people ;)
<JaneW> so 18 hours before this one was, not several hours after...
<mdz> Kamion,Mithrandir: this evening, tomorrow morning, or tomorrow evening (UTC)
<JaneW> ajmitch: get on it, because you'll be the only person awake ;)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: tomorrow morning works for me, I'm booked tomorrow evening.
<Kamion> how about tomorrow morning then, that would suck less
<Mithrandir> s/Kamion/mdz/
<Mithrandir> what time?
<mdz> Kamion: one interesting aspect of SimplifiedLiveCD is that usplash ends up being a build-dep for creating the initramfs
<ajmitch> JaneW: it'd require spec approvals & some work from me, though
<Kamion> 9amish?
<Mithrandir> 0900 UTC sounds great for me.
<mdz> Kamion: which will regenerate the initramfs for the build system when it's installed (fun!)
<mdz> it'd have to be earlier for me; I can't do 0100 tonight
<mdz> maybe the two of you should go on without me
<Kamion> I'd like to have you there; I didn't know about the usplash issue for example
<Kamion> 0800, at a push?
<mdz> yeah, I have that spec pretty straight in my head
<Mithrandir> 0800 works for me.
<mdz> how about Mithrandir and I talk now about the spec, and you and Mithrandir later about the infrastructure changes
<Mithrandir> sounds good
<mdz> tomorrow is not great for me anyway; I have a lot to do before getting on a plane at 1500
<JaneW> where can I find Breezy installer screenshots?
<mdz> Kamion: work for you?
<mdz> JaneW: osdir, probably
<Kamion> ok, I can hang around here for another five minutes
<ogra> JaneW, osdir
<mdz> or is it osnews
<ogra> nope
<JaneW> I have ppl telling me the installer sucks, based on warty experience...
<Kamion> Mithrandir: let's make it 0900 tomorrow then
<Mithrandir> Kamion: sure.
<JaneW> no osdir seems to only have boot screen and onwards...
<mdz> Mithrandir: so my basic thought was that casper would build an initramfs at build time and include it in a .deb along with a tool which would accept a filesystem as input and output a live .iso
<Mithrandir> mdz: would we want to change how the live image itself is generated too?
<mdz> Mithrandir: I don't think so
<mdz> one of the goals for casper has always been to be liberal in what it will accept as a filesystem
<Mithrandir> mdz: apparently, syslinux supports initramfs components, so we don't have to build a full initramfs.
<Kamion> (as of syslinux 3.05)
<Mithrandir> we can just piece it together from a bunch of initramfs modules.
<mdz> Mithrandir: oh, that sounds relatively nice
<mdz> so usplash would produce an initramfs piece?
<Mithrandir> yes.
<mdz> would be a bit awkward for usplash to implement both the mkinitramfs scheme and this one
<Kamion> that could be just shipped in usplash.deb then
<Mithrandir> Colin didn't think it supported globbing, but if we could have that, just having something like initrd=initrd/*.cpio or something like that would be cool
<Mithrandir> I'm thinking that we could reuse as much as possible of our regular initramfs components.  The pieces which would have to be changed or replaced is the "mount /", stage.
<mdz> the only tricky bit is the cdrom-detect piece
<mdz> whether we can usefully use cdrom-detect, or if we need to reimplement the (admittedly small) bit that we actually need
<Mithrandir> it's fairly easy to reimplement, isn't it?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> in fact I think I did it already
<Mithrandir> hmm, we can't do the keyboard layout from gdm since we don't have a gdm login session.
<Kamion> I'm inclined to say the relevant bit of cdrom-detect is too small to bother, really
<mdz> yes, I did
<Mithrandir> I wonder if we should pop up a "please configure your live cd" thingy.
<mdz> in fact I got as far as building an initramfs and trying to test it with qemu
<Mithrandir> do you have that code somewhere?
<mdz> and discovering that the nice "just use this kernel and initrd" shim doesn't seem to work right
<mdz> yeah, will mail it to you
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> maybe we could use oem-config for the "please configure those pieces"?
<Mithrandir> like, country, keyboard layout.
<mdz> the ui? or the debconf infrastructure?
<Mithrandir> both, I think.
<Kamion> I think the plan was to move language into syslinux gfxboot, and make country/keyboard easy to change once you get the live CD up
<mdz> we honestly want to get rid of the UI altogether for livecd purposes
<Kamion> I'd really rather not have oem-config in there personally
<mdz> Kamion: right
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ook, that'd make sense.
<mdz> at most we might add a desktop shortcut to reconfigure the keyboard or such
<Mithrandir> I would just hate to have a cd where you booted and it gave you en_US language and keyboard without any explanation on how to change that.
<mdz> the boot should be non-interactive unless the user interrupts it (to use the syslinux menu)
<mdz> syslinux should display a menu, but have a timeout which basically does that
<Mithrandir> mdz: I was thinking thingy running when you were auto-logged in.
<Mithrandir> yup, that's a good way to do it.
<Mithrandir> once we have that in
<mdz> we could even do this with the existing isolinux, maybe, though it would require typing the name of the language
<Kamion> yeah, would suck too badly with the existing isolinux though IMHO
<mdz> anyway we'll aim for something approximately like what morphix did
<Mithrandir> yeah, that's fine
<mdz> but we can maybe even get away with what knoppix does
<Kamion> in fact you can *already* do it with the existing isolinux if you know what to type ...
<mdz> as a fallback
<mdz> Kamion: heh
<Mithrandir> I haven't looked at knoppix in years.
<mdz> knoppix basically uses "knoppix lang=XX" last I checked
<mdz> and has an EN-default ISO and a DE-default ISO
<Kamion> no separate ISOs :P
<Mithrandir> that sucks, since = isn't on the same place on en_US as nb_NO keyboards (for instance)
<mdz> not for us, no
<mdz> unless locoteams want to build, test and distribute them
<Kamion> Mithrandir: it's fine if you don't actually have to *type* the =
<mdz> Mithrandir: the BIOS should handle that, no
<mdz> ?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: yes, then it's fine.
<Kamion> if you only need to select the language from a menu and it fills it in for you, that's fine
<Kamion> mdz: no, syslinux has a keymap
<mdz> oh UGH
<Mithrandir> mdz: how would it?  It does on sparc, but not on any other machines.
<Mithrandir> possibly Macs do it, I'm not sure.
<Kamion> I think if that were trivial to avoid, it would already have been avoided
<mdz> I thought there were bootstrap BIOS keyboard routines which gave you a character
<Mithrandir> mdz: they default to en_US, since you can't probe keyboard layout
<mdz> anyway, it sounds like we're more or less on the same page about the implementation
<Mithrandir> yes
<mdz> simple simple simple
<mdz> it should be a very thin layer on our existing initramfs, udev, etc.
<mdz> one unfortunate bit is that the casper pre.d and post.d scripts are debconfish
<mdz> otherwise they could be reused verbatim
<Mithrandir> I won't be able to look at it until I'm back from vacation, which is in a week.
<Kamion> I still think sticking a trivial cdebconf in there (with hardly any templates) would be easy enough
<Mithrandir> so don't expect any immediate progress.
<Kamion> it's not much to bring up, and keeps nice features like preseeding
<Mithrandir> Kamion: initramfs cdebconf? ;-)
<Kamion> sure
<Kamion> it only needs to use the none frontend, and basically just be a noninteractive database
<Mithrandir> mhm
<mdz> ok, I'm happy for you two to work out the best way to accomplish that
<mdz> but if we need to fork the casper scripts in the name of simplicity, we can do that
<mdz> we don't need to cling to sharing the code if we can retire the old way
<mdz> I don't think they actually pass any data between the scripts using debconf, just use it to allow preseeding basically
<mdz> which is pretty easy to implement using environment variables instead
<Mithrandir> I was more thinking of just forking off from the current casper to be free from that.
<mdz> Mithrandir: me too
<mdz> the smaller our code base, the fewer bugs it is likely to have
<Mithrandir> yup
<mdz> if we'd had syslinux menus and usplash, I'd've done it this way from the start
<Mithrandir> anything else we need to cover?
<mdz> anything else we should discuss now?
<mdz> Kamion: thanks for sticking around
<Kamion> np, gone now :)
<mdz> thanks Mithrandir
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-07
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 02 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 08 Dec 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<kjcole> Hullo?  Is there a meeting about to happen?
<Seveas> no
<Seveas> or actually yes
<Seveas> docteam
<Seveas> according to the agenda
<kjcole> Seveas, that's what I thought.  It just seemed a bit quiet.
<Seveas> yeah
<LaserJock> I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out 
<kjcole> Is anyone supposed to herd the cats?  (I'm just a cat here, not a cat-herder.)
<LaserJock> lol, seems all the herders are missing :-)
<kjcole> Meow, then.
<mdke> any docteam around?
<azeem> 23:01 < LaserJock> I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out
<mdke> thanks azeem 
<mdke> the agenda is a bit sparse this week...
<kjcole> mdke, ubuntu-doc
<mdke> i'll hang around just in case anyone turns up
<LaserJock> so is there a meeting or no?
<mdke> in theory yeah
<LaserJock> mdke: are the Burger's going to be here?
<kjcole> I'm making noise in some other channels to see if I can scare up people (or cats, as I said earlier).
<mdke> not sure LaserJock 
* kjcole has returned from the wilds of other channels... and it doesn't look promising.
<mdke> ah, we can talk about the xml vs html issue if anyone has any immediate thoughts
<mdke> i only just posted it to the list
<kjcole> OK.  What's a good validating XML editor?
<mdke> i don't know one, why?
<kjcole> I'm fooling around with Conglomerate, but wonder what's available, because I'm writing a doc from existing sources in XML.
<kjcole> My co-editor wants to throw it all out and go with Twisted Matrix's documentation system Lore.  He's very enthusiastic about it, but I see us going off on a tangent.
<kjcole> A few DocTeam members have said "Don't worry about the format.  Worry about the content.  We'll take care of the reformatting."
<mdke> is this edubuntu stuff?
<kjcole> It just seemed silly to me not to take advantage of the existing format.
<kjcole> mdke, yeah.  Edubuntu.
<mdke> you have a different mailing list for edubuntu docs?
<kjcole> mdke, I think I'm losing track.  I don't know. 
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i haven't heard of any of that stuff, so I guess you must!
<kjcole> mdke, it wasn't in a mailing list.  It was either a docteam meeting or a edubutu meeting here.  More likely edubutu meeting.
<mdke> ahh
<mdke> well i haven't heard of lore or conglomerate either :)
<kjcole> mdke, it all blurs together for me as what I'm working on is trying to get accessible documentation for deaf students = docteam, edubutu, accessibility teams.
<mdke> ah interesting
<mdke> but you're not using our repository to store the documentation?
<kjcole> Conglomerate I found when I was looking for a validating XML editor.  Haven't played with it much yet, but it looks good.
<mdke> you should feel free to if you like
<kjcole> mdke, trying to learn everything: I'm fooling around in bzr for the moment.
<kjcole> mdke, the branch is registered on Launchpad.
<mdke> ah fair enough
<mdke> cookbook?
<kjcole> mdke, my big concern is that by trying to learn everything, I'll accomplish nothing.  (XML, DocBook, bzr, RCS in general, launchpad, and living in a Debian-like universe, when coming from a a RedHat one.)
<kjcole> mdke, yep.  Cookbook.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i started learning xml and svn together
<mdke> you kinda do whatever you can to get stuff done
<kjcole> lore is a kind of watered-down XML or watered-up XHTML.  I'm not really impressed with what I've seen of it.  Docbook XML looks like it's more promising, but considerably more complex as well.
<mdke> ah
<kjcole> "lore" is the command to post-process the pages into something more standard. Conglomerate on the other hand, is a validating XML editor, not an XML processor... at least I don't think it is.
<mdke> k
<mdke> gedit is nice :)
<kjcole> mdke, Does gedit do anything special?  (I thought it was just your basic editor.  I've used it a couple of times.)
<mdke> syntax highlighting, more or less ;)
<mdke> i use the validation script in the docteam repo
<kjcole> mdke, we should probably clear outa here, since as a meeting log, this is going to be useless to anyone else.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> is anyone interested in talking about any agenda items?
<mdke> any initial thoughts on whether to ship xml or html?
<LaserJock> I am but I don't count for much
<LaserJock> xml or xhtml?
<mdke> LaserJock, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
<rob1> hi I'm here
<mdke> rob1, no real meeting to speak of, hope you didnt quit your shopping for us
<rob1> no
<mdke> rob1, i was just asking for any initial thoughts on the xml vs html thread I just started on -doc and -desktop
<rob1> my wife wants me to burn a cd of photos so we can get them printed off
<LaserJock> mdke: can we ship both but default to html?
<mdke> LaserJock, shipping both would be kinda confusing for the user
<rob1> I think we should ship as html for now if we can, but I might if I get time have a crack at getting yelp to use our xslt if I get the time
<LaserJock> mdke: does the user have to know?
<mdke> LaserJock, we can ship both but have only one appear in the yelp menu, for sure
<LaserJock> mdke: that is what I meant
<mdke> rob1, we can do that, but i don't really see the point in forcing the user to suffer the speed reduction
<LaserJock> I like the sidbar, but it is slow
<LaserJock> *sidebar
<rob1> mdke, that is true.
<rob1> how will it effect translations? 
<rob1> html that is?
<mdke> rob1, i'm pretty sure it won't affect them
<rob1> mdke, what was the problem last time?
<mdke> rob1, the About Ubuntu icon in the menu needs xml for translations to work
<rob1> was that the only thing stopping us from shipping html last time
<rob1> ?
<mdke> afaics
<mdke> that, and the fact that I didn't know how to use scrollkeeper
<rob1> just reading your email now..
<mdke> i'll do some tests on the translations
<rob1> even if it doesn't get its own app, can we convert it to xml and load it into launchpad for translations, then convert to html again like the rest of our docs?
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> about ubuntu?
<rob1> about ubuntu is html right?
<mdke> it is xml already
<rob1> oh
<mdke> :)
<rob1> thats odd then
<rob1> why couldn't that be shipped as html too along with the rest of our docs?
<mdke> it could, if the menu item is going to be something else
<mdke> the launcher from the menu needs it to be in xml
<rob1> why?
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> the command is "yelp ghelp:about-ubuntu"
<mdke> whatever the hell that is, it wants xml
<rob1> well the yelp man page sucks
<mdke> anything else of interest on the agenda?
<rob1> have you looked at common-tasks.xml today?
<Riddell> what's the status of single or split kubuntu/ubuntu packaging?
<mdke> not closelyt
<mdke> Riddell, where we left it I think. I can summarise:
<mdke> "Hopefully we can get dholbach to do the work"
<rob1> brian added some cd burning stuff, I think the whole page needs a face lift
<Riddell> no dholbach here today I see
<mdke> Riddell, nah he's gone to bed i think
* rob1 adds it to things to do list
<Riddell> oh yes, I forget these europeans live in the future
<mdke> rob1, i'd like to have a good extended discussion on the desktopguide
<mdke> Riddell, you're not european up there huh? >_<
<Riddell> not in the US I'm not :)
<rob1> mdke, what about it?
<mdke> Riddell, you moved there?
<Riddell> no, just this week
<mdke> phew
* Riddell currently in Linus Torvald's office
<mdke> Riddell, don't forget you're european tho, even while there
<mdke> that's pretty cool
<Riddell> they haven't assimilated yet, I don't even drink this Diet Mountain Due they feed us
<rob1> ok I've got to go
<mdke> rob1, those things I mailed you about: handling software installation, and structure of sections (qanda or split <para> and qanda)
<LaserJock> Riddell:  Mountain Dew ;-)
<mdke> Riddell, good man
<rob1> mdke, when I get time later today I will respond to all that 
<mdke> rob1, great, in the meantime, i'm working on the css
<LaserJock> did the common preface, etc. get discussed
<rob1> mdke, good :)
<mdke> LaserJock, not yet, i'll raise it with rob later on
<mdke> LaserJock, best to discuss on the list first I think, so rob and bhuvan can both comment
<rob1> just quickly, I stole the preface for the faqguide because it needed extra info/some things changed to fit in
<mdke> we can talk it over via email
<rob1> I can't see why we can't have the one universal one though, but make sure it is a valid xml file (with a header) so we can xinclude it
<rob1> then it only has to be translated once
<mdke> +1
<rob1> :)
<rob1> ok got to go
<rob1> bye
<LaserJock> cya
<mdke> bye
<mdke> Judax, thanks for coming, the meeting is a bit of a damp squib
<mdke> we're just chatting
<mdke> :)
<Judax> well, that is fun too
<LaserJock> so what is the purpose of using xml then if we are just going to ship html?
<Judax> sounds like you are all drunk on mountain dew?
<LaserJock> Pepsi for me ;P
<mdke> LaserJock, docbook xml is more flexible for exporting to different formats, and we can translate it, too
<LaserJock> mdke: but if everything is html then you don't have different formats. HTML is harder to translate than XML?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> LaserJock, and don't forget we might want to make pdf's, that sort of thing
<mdke> but the translation is very important
<LaserJock> mdke: right
<mdke> it's crazy hard to make pot files from html
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-08
<LaserJock> I have nothing against XML, I was just playing devil's advocate
<mdke> np
<mdke> that's good
<Judax> Riddell: any plans for kde3.5 ppc packages?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-09
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<mallox> hi..sorry if disturb..may you help me please..how can I instal .bin file ? thx..Im beginner..
<bmonty> mallox: you should ask in #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-11
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 06 Dec 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 07 Dec 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 07 Dec 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 08 Dec 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 16 Dec 16:00 UTC: Desktop team
<Seveas> arzajac, so you can make it after all :)
<zakame> hi bhuvan :)
<Seveas> ha 6 minutes to zero-hour
<Seveas> Back home just in time
* mhz would like a little chat with hno73 after meeting, possible?
<hno73> mhz: sure
<jjesse> i'll be back for probablly the end of the meeting, gotta switch work locations
<mhz> hno73: thx
<zyga> when is the CC meeting?
<zyga> in 6 minutes?
<Seveas> 3 minutes
<nalioth> in about 4 minutes
<zyga> not at 22:00?
<Seveas> no
<zyga> k, glad I've joined earlier ;] 
<zyga> heh
<zakame> er 2 minutes from now
<Kyral> whew in the nick of time
<Seveas> zyga, make sure your wikipage is up to date
<Seveas> i've seen you busy in #ubuntu-? but that work is not listed
<zyga> Seveas: I made minor updates
<zyga> Seveas: just below the 'Update:' 
<MagicFab> Gd'morning
<Seveas> MagicFab, have you been working with mako on your wikipage?
<MagicFab> Seveas: no, alone ;) asked mako for feedback but didn't get any
<MagicFab> (by email)
<Seveas> ah
<Kamion> mako: you didn't vote on mhz at the last meeting; are you ready to do so?
<Kamion> (thus contrary to what the agenda claims, mhz wasn't approved
<Kamion> )
<ogra> is he around ? 
<Seveas> *DING* 14:00 UTC
<ogra> any sabdfl in sight ? 
<Kamion> elmo: around?
<Seveas> mako, LaserJock, raphink, Kyral, kjcole *ping*
<raphink> hello everybody :)
<Kyral> I'm here
<kiko> hey there
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
<LaserJock> here
<raphink> Seveas: hehe i'm here :)
<Seveas> mhz, smurf 
<Seveas> *ping* too
* smurf is here ;-)
* mhz is here
<Seveas> We'll have to wait for the CC members to show up
<mhz> in the meantime, Greeting Ubunteros :)
<kiko> greetings
<Seveas> hi
<MarioMeyer_> hi :P
<Madpilot> morning, everyone
* Kamion reaches for the list of phone number
<Kamion> s
<robotgeek> morning...coffee time
<StevenK> Speaking of morning, it's neatly 1am here. :-/
<Seveas> Kamion, aren't they on speed dial yet? :)
<mhz> StevenK: thx for being here, then
<ogra> Kamion, sabdfl just mailed me, he seems awake and in reach of a PC
<Madpilot> 0600 here :(
<kjcole> No rest for the wicked.
* Kyral reaches for caffine
<LaserJock> Madpilot: me too
<ogra> but i bet he forgot about the early time today
<MagicFab> I invited Corey Burger and Daniel RObitaille but it's 6AM for them :(
<mhz> Madpilot: very early, thx
<Kamion> elmo's coming
<StevenK> mhz: I went to bed early, and my wife woke me at 0000
<mhz> MagicFab: i'm glad you're here
<jsgotangco> hehe
<kjcole> New Ubunutu project: Tivo for #ubuntu-meetings.  (Better than log files.) ;-)
<Seveas> it's conveniently 15:00 here :)
<mhz> StevenK: hehehe, that happens all the time if you have kids too
* jsgotangco is babysitting at the moment
<elmo> ok, here
<Seveas> hi elmo 
<\sh> morning gentlemen
<Kamion> elmo: do you know where Mark is at the moment?
<raphink> hi \sh
<mhz> morning \sh 
<elmo> somewhere in the US
<elmo> he probably won't be up for a couple of hours
<zakame> hi mhz :D
<mhz> zakame: helloz
<kjcole> Hullo, all.
<elmo> unless we snagged mako, quorum might be hard
<Kamion> apparently he just sent e-mail, I'll try his mobile
<mhz> kjcole: is your page updated
<zakame> elmo: thanks for adding me to the keyring today :-)
<zakame> evening \sh :)
<Kamion> sabdfl is being summoned
<Seveas> hehe
<Seveas> hi jbailey 
<kjcole> mhz: Not recently...  
<mhz> kjcole: well, it looked good to me :)
<jbailey> Seveas: hi
<jsgotangco> summoning powers
* mhz plays Magic, the Gathering, and plays 9 lands to summon sabdfl
<Kyral> hehe
<zakame> mhz: wow
<dholbach> mhz: dunno, if 9 are enough, you might have to tap all your artifacts too
<mhz> lol!
<Kyral> dangit dholbach beat me to it :D
* StevenK ponders something to eat.
* Seveas casts a fireball and burns all Magic cards
* zakame hasn't played Magic for a looong time :(
<Kamion> s/summoned/hunted/ apparently
<mhz> Seveas: boooh, you killed out entertainment
* Madpilot ponders caffeine
<mhz> :)
<jsgotangco> good luck on summoning sabdfl in th snow
<jsgotangco> heh
* dholbach neither... like 7-8 years
* Kyral plays a Moment's Peace and blocks the fireball
<Kamion> can we sort out meeting times in the meantime maybe?
<Seveas> mhz, bofh.ntk.net
<Seveas> hours of entertainment
<Kamion> although we don't have mako which makes that awkward
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Did he get caught in it?
<Seveas> http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html <-- that one i mean
<mako> i'm here
<mhz> Seveas: jsgotangco could tell us about mobile entretainment for our Sharp Zaurus, maybe?
<Seveas> greetings, mako
<jsgotangco> mako!!!!
<Kamion> mako: aha, we can start then
<Seveas> we could start now if sabdfl is evasive, let's do the naming round
* mhz *sighs*
* Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker
<mako> sorry i'm a bit late.. i need like 1 minute to get organized
<zakame> hello mako :)
* ogra is OliverGrawert
<kjcole> Hi, mako.  (And thanks -- I think -- for the speedy order on the CD's.  Or thank whoever's responsible.)
* MarioMeyer_ is Mario Meyer
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* \sh is Stephan Hermann
* nalioth is Marek Spruell
<kiko> mako!
* Kamion is Colin Watson
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
* StevenK is Steve Kowalik
* Kyral is Chris Peterman
* jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
* mhz is MauricioHernandez
* mako is benjamin mako hill
* Madpilot is Brian Burger
* LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
* kiko is ChristianReis
* zakame is Zak Elep
* bhuvan is Bhuvaneswaran
* azeem is Michael Banck
* raphink is Raphal Pinson
* robotgeek is VenkatRaghavan
<Seveas> arzajac, there?
* hno73 is Henrik Omma
<Seveas> ubuntugeek, there?
* MagicFab is Fabian Rodriguez
<Kamion> sabdfl's on his way
<zyga> (everyone needs to say their name?)
<Kamion> the ubuntite/ubuntero thing is first on the agenda
* smurf is Matthias Urlichs
<Kamion> so to alleviate confusion from those bug reports, Ubuntite/Ubuntero simply means that you've signed the code of conduct, and conceptually it should be a prerequisite for membership/maintainership (although I'm not sure if Launchpad actually implements that)
<jsgotangco> it does
<Kamion> I'm also not sure that it really matters that much what it's called, or why the CC needs to decide on it :-)
<elmo> Kamion: it doesn't
<Seveas> ok, but which one is the official word for person-who-signed-the-coc-and-pledged-allegiance-to-ubuntu :)
<Kamion> kiko: I assumed sabdfl had renamed it to Ubuntero, which would kind of make it official
<Kamion> did somebody explicitly ask for it to be brought up here?
<Seveas> yes, kiko
<mako> it was originally ubuntite
<elmo> Kamion: implement it as a prerequisite for membership, I mean.  the only thing signed_CoC enforces is ubuntu.com email
<Kamion> Seveas: I'm asking kiko if somebody asked him
<kiko> well
<kiko> yes
<kiko> it's been asked on a number of occasions
<mako> that is what was written in the process documents
<kiko> we need to change the wording in Launchpad
<Seveas> Kamion, ah, sorry /me grabs glasses
<kiko> I just want to make sure that this is the definitive answer
<mako> but if sabdfl has very strong feelings, that's fine
<Kamion> it was changed from Ubuntite to Ubuntero in Launchpad
* mako nods
<mako> i saw that
<mako> i was a little a confused.. 
<kiko> (I personally think Ubuntu member is a better name but ignore my opinions :-P)
<kiko> now
<kiko> there are places that still say Ubuntite
<Seveas> kiko, Ubuntero != member
<ogra> its pre-membership
<kiko> the reason this happened is because it was hacked in by a certain person
<Kamion> why not just stick a tooltip/link on it explaining what it means? even I think the wording is confusing
<kiko> okay
<kiko> we will
<kiko> however
<Kamion> but that's a launchpad development issue
<kiko> I want someone to:
<kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
<kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
<kiko> we all know how mark is with email and requests
<Kamion> in this case it wasn't at all the CC's fault, but OK :-)
<kiko> and I want to make sure we don't drop the ball so often
<mako> kiko: mark made this change right?
<kiko> the fact that is says ubuntite and ubuntero in places makes me want to DIE
* kiko turns his back to mako and whistles
<Kamion> we're kind of at the point where we need a CC mailing list
<Kamion> (i.e. the four of us)
<ogra> kiko, we really dont wnat that you want to die 
<kiko> that is all on that topic from me :)
<elmo> kiko: dude, this change was made directly in launchpad with no consultation with the CC - what exactly do you expect from us here?
<kiko> well
<kiko> I'll put it this way
<mako> kiko: it was *always* ubuntite and not particularly controversial AFAIK..
<elmo> kiko: we've got about as much chance of fixing this as you have of demanding sabdfl always add tests when he commits 
<mako> kiko: now, the alternative is not particularly controversial either
<ogra> mako, until sabdfl changed it :)
<mako> it's just a name and i, for one, am not going to fight anyone over it
<ogra> there he is
<sabdfl> morning all
<Seveas> there's the guilty one!
<kiko> lol. well, people here seem to know something about the word "ubuntero", while the first time I saw this was in a launchpad landing. :)
<sabdfl> sorry to be late, didn't hear about it till breakfast
<Kamion>  Definitive name for Ubuntero: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/5317 (ChristianReis)
<Kamion> sabdfl: ^-- point on agenda
<jsgotangco> hehe
* kiko looks at sabdfl 
<Kamion> kiko: we only know it because (a) it randomly came up in random people's blogs like a year and a half ago, (b) we all saw it in launchpad
<Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> I want someone to:
<Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> a) be a point of contact that will formally email launchpad@lists.canonical.com to request this sort of policy change
<Kamion> 14:19 < kiko> b) make sure that email gets sent to us when a decision like that is made, even if it's not entirely the CC's fault
<mako> sabdfl: it was originally ubuntite.. LP code seems to now call it ubuntero in some but not all places
<kiko> this is a bit confusing to me but okay. I thought the CC would deliberate on this sort of naming changes.
<Kamion> sabdfl: is that something the CC can/should do? obviously we can hardly stop you from making changes in launchpad :-)
<Seveas> Kamion, duct tape?
<mako> i don't think anyone is going to fight over the name
<mako> i'm not at least
<sabdfl> ok
<kiko> I'm not either
<MagicFab> Kamion: articfacts ?
<kjcole> I think folks who are not very far along in the process should be known as Ubunturists (Ubunt-tourists).
<mako> but would like consistency :)
<sabdfl> consistency is good :-)
<zyga> heh
<zakame> hi sabdfl :D
<sabdfl> i changed it in the places i knew it existed, it's a bug as ubuntite anywhere
<zyga> Ubuntu*ists could be exploited to many different and ackward names
<sabdfl> though, someone did point out there is a gender issue in some languages
<Seveas> sabdfl, ok, we will maill all occurences of ubuntite to you :)
<mako> sabdfl: in what sense?
<mako> sabdfl: in "ubuntero"
<sabdfl> Seveas: rather file bugs on LP
<elmo> mako: ubuntero is male?
<nalioth> elmo: in latin cultures, yes
<mako> ubuntite seems quite neutral
* mako nods
<Kamion> "Ubuntu" has case issues in some languages - my general opinion is "whatever" unless I'm actively sorting out translations
<sabdfl> i cant remember, but in some languages it's definitely one or the other
<MarioMeyer_> ubuntite would sound female in portuguese
<raphink> yes ubuntero is definitely male
<kjcole> sabdfl, Oops. Not thinking multi-lingually.  My mistake.
<sabdfl> ubuntite seems a little uptite
<MagicFab> Ubuntera would be female in spanish
* mako likes ubuntite personally
<mako> bbut only because people from seattle are seattlites
<sabdfl> hmm... we could of course let people specify themselves
* jsgotangco likes ubuntite too..its the original term i believe....
<mako> sabdfl: no :)
<mako> sabdfl: just choose one :)
<MagicFab> Ubuntero/a would mean docs in spanish would have to accomodate for both (in some places)
<bhuvan> +1 for ubuntite
* smurf likes ubuntero
<Kamion> sabdfl: as long as there's a link to what it means in lp so that people quit asking, I really don't care
<Seveas> bhuvan, we're not voting :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<Kamion> and I don't think the CC should get into the bikeshed argument of which it should be
<elmo> I think we shouldn't underestimate the gender-bias in ubuntero
* jsgotangco feels ubuntero sounds like a mexican folk singer in costume
* raphink likes ubuntero but thinks the male/female issue might be a pb
<elmo> there's enough problems with barriers for women in IT without us adding potential new ones
<\sh> sabdfl: is there no female/male/to be defined sex suffix for this in zulu?
<dholbach> what's wrong with using "ubuntu member" and translating "member" in different languages shouldn't be hard - it doesn't sound cool, but it "works" :)
<mako> i don't think gender-specific name for people who have signed the coc is a good idea
<sabdfl> elmo: you and your lost causes ;-)
<Kamion> dholbach: because it's *not* membership
<kiko> ubuntera/ubuntero? :-P
<mako> kiko: please no
<raphink> dholbach: ubunteros are not necessarily members yet
<MagicFab> UBunturist sounds great, although a bit long
<sabdfl> UBUNTER(A/O)
<zakame> jsgotangco: lol
<sabdfl> ubunterrorista
<kiko> lol
<ogra> eek
<\sh> ubunturist sounds like ubuntu terrorists
<jsgotangco> that's jdub
* jsgotangco hides
<bhuvan> let it not be terrorist :)
<dholbach> haha
<Kamion> ok, this is what I mean about bikeshed arguments
<Seveas> Jdubuntu :)
* raphink looks around if there's no CIA agent
<zakame> \sh: haha
<mako> ubuntonians
<kjcole> sabdfl, I think that one only applies to benevolent dictators...
<zyga> debianities, genotooities, fedoraxies are thankfully non-existant, I agree with dholbach's suggeston for something simple, Kamion is right too
<sabdfl> ok, leave it as it is, with a link to an explanation
<Seveas> ok
<sabdfl> next?
<Seveas> more kiko
<mako> sabdfl: wait.. 
<elmo> umm
<ogra> as is is broken
<mako> the problem is that it's inconsistent
<ogra> we need one name
<zakame> yubs?
<mako> does leave it as it is mean "make it all ubuntero"
<StevenK> It's a name we have came up with. We can just declare it is gender-neutral, right?
<elmo> StevenK: no
<sabdfl> right, i was saying ubuntero is the current one, ubuntite is a bug, we can do a vote on it to settle how it should be
<Seveas> mako, sabdfl said: File bugs when you see Ubuntite - inconsistency can not be solved right here right now :)
<mako> cool
<raphink> StevenK: not sure, in latin cultures it feels funny to call a female with -o name
<kiko> well
<sabdfl> raphink: not even really cool females?
<smurf> sabdfl: I don't think so
<elmo> sabdfl: no
<smurf> sabdfl: Spain is not Russia ;-)
* bhuvan prays no new gender issue on ubuntero in future
<raphink> sabdfl: let's see, females I see on linux systems like to be recognized as such even more than in other places most of the time...
<\sh> .oO(what is a really cool female?"
<Seveas> \sh, my fiancee :)
<raphink> \sh: lol
* ogra thinks ice princess
<sabdfl> i have another 30 mins, guys
<elmo> sabdfl: dude, I've already had people complain about this to me.  I'm not arguing for hypotheticals
<raphink> females who get to use Ubuntu deserve much ;)
<\sh> Seveas: but she is not from a latin country, right? ,)
<raphink> hehe
<Seveas> \sh, no
<Kamion> StevenK: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/blog/projects/ubuntu/1116733725 is the origin
<sabdfl> ok, i don't mind reverting to ubuntite, but i think it sounds trite and uptight :-)
<ogra> lets move on ...
<Kamion> it's expressly coming from idioms in other languages
<Seveas> sabdfl, you should revert it anyway temporarily until we can come up with a Really Cool Name(tm)
<mako> seems like next up is the typo in the CoC
<kjcole> One could look at Esperanto rules and see if there's any kind of gender-neutral, language-neutral ending...
<raphink> Seveas: lol
* mhz thinks 'ubunter' is just perfect
<Kamion>  Typo in the Code of Conduct: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/3952 (ChristianReis)
<Kamion> at least this one is definitely within the CC's purview ;-)
<Seveas> indeed
<Seveas> it means everyone will have to sign again
<raphink> kjcole: names in esperanto finish with -o and are neutral. Male names finish with -ulo and female with -ino.
<Seveas> raphink, we moved on already...
<kiko> okay
<sabdfl> those caps are a little scary
<kiko> so there's a typo in the CoC
<mhz> raphink: good point
<sabdfl> we don't have to re-sign
<Kamion> Seveas: no, there's no particular reason to require people to sign the most current version if it's just a typo cleanup
<Seveas> ah ok
<sabdfl> the system is smart enough to remember which version you signed
<Kamion> it would have to be a new version, yes
<sabdfl> and i think it has a list of currently valid versions
<mako> i'm reading tha tcnetance and i can't even see the error
<Seveas> if launchpad can handle multiple CoC's there's no problem
<kiko> it can
<sabdfl> s/it/is/
<Kamion> while we're at it we should nominate somebody to do a general proofreading pass
<mako> ah, ok
<kiko> I just wanted to bring this matter to your attention
<Kamion> I'm happy to volunteer for that
<mako> sure, shhould bbe fixed
<sabdfl> kiko: nicely done
<kiko> sure
<Seveas> who will fix it?
<mhz> Kamion: would new versions include localisations?
<ogra> Seveas, Kamion 
<Kamion> mhz: that's a separate issue
<kiko> mhz, not yet, different topic.
<mhz> okis
<mako> mhz: we haven't talked about that
<Seveas> .oO(Note to self: thorough proofreading of CoC for next meeting)
<Kamion> ogra: I can't change launchpad
<MagicFab> perhaps also include a reminder to people that have signed, whenever it changes
<kiko> Seveas, I have someone to do that, I just want a new copy of the CoC, properly proofread.
<ogra> Kamion, oh, misunderstood
<kiko> I can also produce a list of people that have signed the old one
<Kamion> Seveas: doesn't need to be in a meeting, I can just mail the CC a diff to make sure everyone's happy with the changes
<sabdfl> mhz: we definitely want to do loclaisations of the CoC, just needs LP dev time
<mako> kiko: well, go ahead and make that one-byte change
<mako> it's uncontroversial
<kiko> if we want to spam them to re-sign
<sabdfl> kiko: no need for that no
<Kamion> mako: I'd really like to avoid 1.0.1 1.0.2 etc. for successive one-byte changes
<kiko> mako, I would rather only rev the version once this time
<Seveas> kiko, neh, not for this change
<kiko> ok
<MagicFab> Kamion: align it with release cycles
<mako> Kamion: so, wait until next week
<kiko> I said spam for a reason :)
<Kamion> shall I do this and mail launchpad@ with the diff once we're done
<Kamion> MagicFab: no
<mako> it's been there for a year, we can wait two weeks :)
<mako> kiko: and no, i don't think people need to resign
* sabdfl never noticed it before
<bhuvan> we can post in mailing lists
<Seveas> Kamion, sounds like a plan
<Kamion> mako: it'll take ten minutes to do ;)
<mhz> sabdfl: I asked because in case other people want to become members, I could ofer myself for the non-offcial version so they could at least understant what they'll face whn they sign
<kiko> Kamion, that would be perfect.
<kjcole> kiko, since you have a way of knowing who signed, is there a way to just automatically build that into some sort of announce mailing-list (broadcast only)?
<sabdfl> mhz: we will do proper i18n for the CoC, just need to extend the system that tracks them
<kiko> kjcole, not easily, but talk to me on #launchpad later about your use case and I'll see.
<mako> yeah, i can take a look at it again also
* mhz okis
<mako> but people have a pretty amazing ability to see right through their own errors
<Kamion> ok, NEXT :-)
<Amaranth> mako: In more than just spelling and grammar. :)
<Kamion> Automatix / forums nightmare argument issue
<Kamion> are the relevant people actually here?
<jsgotangco> forums...
<robotgeek> I have a nice writeup here: http://robotgeek.org/cc.html
<Amaranth> btw, holy crap i made it to a meeting
<jsgotangco> haha
<Seveas> automatix is the piece of crap that triggers reinstalls all over
<Kyral> Seveas: Agreed :D
<ogra> thats the one that breaks your sources.list, right ? 
<Kamion> robotgeek: thanks, please add that to the link farm on the agenda
<robotgeek> that link provides all relevant background, and also provides the links to conversations in #ubuntuforums
<Madpilot> and it's causing censorship problems in the forums...
<Seveas> that last line may have been a violation of the CoC, but the script is SO DAMN STUPID, I already know of dozens of people who had to reinstall after using it
<nalioth> automatix is just a symptom of the larger issue
<Kamion> (which we'll probably move to somewhere else, but anyway)
<robotgeek> Kamion: sorry, i came up with it two hours ago. will do right away
<Kyral> It adds the PLF repos for one thing...
<zakame> er
<mako> "thereby violating my rights given to me by GPL": i don't think you mean that
<Kamion> so I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the post-deletions issue I've seen; however we have not yet heard the administration say their piece
<robotgeek> mako: it was GPL'ed, and they did not allow me to post my changes?
<Kamion> and I don't particularly want us to hold a trial in absentia
<ogra> and they are not here it seems
* raphink wonders why magic scripts like automatix or easyubuntu are not replaced by series of inter-dependent packages in multiverse
<Seveas> Kamion, indeed, but the forum administrators seem not to like coming to meetings
<Amaranth> raphink: work on that was done where it made sense
<Seveas> the almost always miss them
<Amaranth> Yeah, the forum has really seemed to distance itself.
<nalioth> are the ubuntuforums 'official' ?
<Kyral> raphink: The reason why is because the majority of what they do is pull in things like w32codecs and SunJava
<Seveas> nalioth, yes
<Amaranth> no
<Amaranth> err, since when?
<ogra> yes
<Seveas> since a long time already
<ogra> warty
<raphink> Kyral: well then it's not useful
<mako> robotgeek: it would only be a GPL issue if you let you distribute the binary but not the source
<jsgotangco> since we started paying part of the hosting...
<Kamion> nalioth: yes, and Canonical contributes to their funding
<robotgeek> mako: it's a bash script :)
<Amaranth> ah
<mako> robotgeek: this is a social problem, not a licensingg isssue
<robotgeek> mako: agreed
<mako> robotgeek: lets focus on the real issue
<Amaranth> any canonical employees have any powers on the forum?
<Amaranth> or any ubuntu members, even?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<nalioth> i think the forums needs a check-call, because there are major problems there. they seem to think the forums are not part of the ubuntu community as a whole
<Kamion> Amaranth: a number of forums folks are members
<Kyral> I believe UbuntuGeek is a Member
<Seveas> Amaranth, most of the forum staff are members
<Seveas> so they should (but don't) respect the code of conduct
<Kamion> but there are no Canonical employees in the administration to my knowledge (which is probably how it should be)
<jjesse> it seems every meeting lately there are issues w/ the forums
<jsgotangco> agreed
<mako> alright, the accusations are flying hard and heavy
<ogra> jjesse, yes, but the people never appear here 
<mako> the forums are *huge*
<Amaranth> Kamion: I can see both sides of that one but I'd think having at least a mod would be a good thing.
<MagicFab> PLF repos and ubuntu-fr docs are very non-free friendly - post install info includes Skype, msttfonts, MP3, etc.
<mako> they are a massive portion of the ubuntu community
<MagicFab> ubuntu-fr.org , that is
<jjesse> ogra: if they don't appear here, then how can we deal w/ them here?
<mako> in terms of raw numbers, they are quite likely the largest part
<ogra> jjesse, thats the prob :)
<mako> it might  makes sense that there a proportional amount of disagreements come from them
<jsgotangco> most of the time, the forums are a unique community by itself...
<robotgeek> the problem is that Ubuntuforums tends to feel that they are not a part of this community, even starting off their own wiki project
<Kyral> MagicFab: I had a help case in where using the PLF repos seemed to cripple someone's system so bad that he couldn't install build-essential
<zakame> indeed :(
<Seveas> ok, we are rescheduling CC meetings at the end of this one, should we just defer this for now and wait for the next meeting so the forum staff can show up?
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, that feeling is social
<Seveas> without forum staff there is not much we can do now
<\sh> Seveas: if they show up
<Kamion> I didn't realise this was coming up until I looked at the agenda two hours ago
<Kamion> did anyone explicitly ask the forums administration to show up here at this time?
<mhz> robotgeek: I agree on that
<robotgeek> half of the stuff is going to be gone, cause they prune the threads and all
<Amaranth> robotgeek: So kassetra basically just moved every automatix-related post you made to the jail?
<Seveas> they really should stop deleting things
<Madpilot> Kamion: it's been posting at CCAgenda for a day or two
<MagicFab> Some articles in ubuntu-fr planet explain how to use .debs directly etc. - I am not opposed to that but perhaps guidelines for LoCos should extend the CoC and provide for this
<Kyral> the Ubuntu Forums channel is #ubuntuforums if anyone wants to know
<robotgeek> Amaranth: yup. 
<smurf> IMHO removing (meta-)controversial items instead of openly discussing them simply aggravates the problem in the long run
<sabdfl> smurf: +1
<Kamion> Madpilot: yes, but I don't sit reloading that religiously
<Madpilot> Amaranth: one of my posts was yanked too
<nalioth> Amaranth: robotgeek was not the only one 'pruned'
<Kamion> Madpilot: and I doubt forums admins do either
<Seveas> Kamion, subscribe to it ;)
<MagicFab> Madpilot: not everyone knows to subscribe to wiki pages
<Amaranth> nalioth: That'd be like you and me kicking random people in #ubuntu. :P
<sabdfl> so, i think Kassetra has misread the GPL
<kjcole> smurf: Agreed.  Hiding stuff doesn't make it go away.
<Kamion> Seveas: I just did, but still, there's a lot of noise, and it *still* doesn't address the issue that nobody has yet owned up to asking the forums admins to be here
<ogra> MagicFab, its one click
<Seveas> Kamion, I'll ask for the next meeting
<Amaranth> wtf
<robotgeek> sabdfl: i think the issue was that arnieboy was a forum staff member
<Kamion> Seveas: thank you
<Amaranth> normal users can't get into the jail?
<raphink> a consequence of documenting .deb installations too much is that many people come to pretend Ubuntu is hard to use because they tried to install stuff this way instead of using apt-get (or GUIs)
<Seveas> Amaranth, normal users can't see half of the forums
<sabdfl> she seems to think that it requires permission to change the code and publish a modified version
<Seveas> they are too closed for non-members too
<MagicFab> ogra: I know, among many other click in the same page. The forum admins may not be familiar with it (I wasn't). explicit invitation and "subscribe" should do it.
<Amaranth> Seveas: Now that I have a serious problem with.
<Kyral> I'll PM Kass on the Forums if anyone wants me to
<Kamion> one of the threads linked to from the agenda does have arnieboy apparently threatening to delete bug reports (implying doing it himself, although it wasn't explicit)
<Madpilot> Kamion: that's exactly what happened to several posts, including robotgeek's
<sabdfl> robotgeek: did the new version correctly credit arnieboy's original copyright?
<robotgeek> sabdfl: yes
<Kamion> MagicFab: no, if somebody needs to show up for some bit of arbitration, they need to be explicitly asked to show up, rather than expecting everyone who might be involved in arbitration to subscribe all the time
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<robotgeek> sabdfl: i just added my name at the top, everything else was intact
<smurf> sabdfl: I'd be inclined to treat that as a symptom for now; if the discussion would have (a) stayed open and (b) people wouldn't immediately jump on each other, minor issues like what the GPL means are self-correcting
* mako nods to smurf
<sabdfl> smurf: well, i suspect the forums admins are super busy, and don't want to leave things out there
<Amaranth> (off topic: claiming automatix is the successor to "ubuntu guide" doesn't make me feel too good about it)
<MagicFab> Kamion: I was saying "invite them to meeting", but also "tell them to subscribe to the Agenda" as appropriate
<sabdfl> they have to take decisions quickly, or it would all pile up
<Seveas> Amaranth, you shouldn't
<zakame> hm I think observing the code of conduct in the forums should be emphasized :(
<Seveas> it's utter crap
<Kyral> zakame: Here Here!
<Kamion> MagicFab: I'm just saying I don't think the latter is an appropriate thing for us to ask them to do; most people don't live for community council meetings
<jjesse> Amaranth: people should be using the ubuntu guide that is included in the docs
<mako> Amaranth: the fact it installs lots of non-free and undistributable software doesn't exactly help
<robotgeek> Amaranth: it's Ubuntu Forums wiki: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<nalioth> Amaranth: they dont claim that, there is another site that they make that claim about
<mako> and (apparently) bypasses legally binding shrinkrap licenses
<sabdfl> the question here is did Kassetra just make a mistake (easily corrected) or was she trying to help arnieboy and ignoring the GPL in the process
<Amaranth> nalioth: arnieboy makes that claim in his signature
<Kyral> sabdfl: I have a log of an IRC "discussion" I had with the rest of the Forums community about it
<jjesse> the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Paige
<mako> sabdfl: i don't think it's fair to have this conversation without Kas or arniebboy
<jjesse> the doc team has had some disagreements w/ http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<Kyral> I could dig it up and post it someplace
<Seveas> Kyral, post it for the next meeting
<Kyral> Seveas: Edited for content?
<Seveas> we cannot really do anything now
<MagicFab> Yeah, CoC should prevail
<Seveas> Kyral, verbose
<crimsun> I agree with mako
<robotgeek> sabdfl: if you look at the google cache link, she did it knowingly. in fact, i believe she crafted the license
<zakame> Kyral: I mean if people there simply delete posts (er even threaten deletion) that wouldn't do anyone good :(
<sabdfl> the hotel just called to let me know that my "ground transportation" has arrived.
<smurf> Hmmm. It works very well for ubuntuusers.de; the forum there is *quite* busy too. Letting the members self-police, and ping admins when necessary, basically works here.
<Amaranth> Kyral: Can you email that to alleykat@gmail.com ?
<Seveas> mako++
<sabdfl> how very military
<Kyral> Okay: Its ugly, tempers flared
<Seveas> sabdfl, g'bye then
<Kyral> Amaranth: After class remind me :P
<robotgeek> sabdfl: nice talking to you
<Kyral> I'll remmebr but just in case
<Seveas> Shall we move on to the next topic?
<Kyral> cya sabdfl
<ogra> sabdfl, so dont forget your helmet ;)
<Kyral> or your towel!
<raphink> lol
<Kamion> Seveas: if you're happy to take responsibility for asking some set of Kassetra, arnieboy, ubuntugeek, and/or other admins to show up, that would be fantastic
<kjcole> sabdfl: ta-ta
<jsgotangco> bye sabdfl thanks for the email too
<Kamion> sabdfl: see you
<Seveas> Kamion, I will
<MagicFab> sabdfl: quick remonider: ColombianTeam starting, hoping to see you there
<Kamion> Seveas: thank you
<zakame> bye sabdfl :D
<Kamion> ok, NEXT
<MagicFab> sabdfl: (in Colombia, next year)
<Seveas> mhz, 
<raphink> sabdfl: have a good ground transportation ;)
<Kamion> MauricioHernandez was approved during last meeting but he still does not appear listed as member in ?LaunchPad (it's been 2 weeks)
<sabdfl> mako: i still think we could easily take a view on the derivative work, and let Kas know that we think it's fine and not in violation of the CoC and therefore does not need to be in the jail
<mhz> Seveas: yup?
<Kamion> mhz isn't approved because mako didn't vote (that I saw)
<Kamion> mako: ?
<Seveas> mako, you said you would vote for mhz later and didn't do so yet, so please :)
<sabdfl> wait guys, i don't think we need to call the whole forums group in for every issue
<mako> mhz++
<mako> welcome
<Seveas> mako, cool
<Seveas> mhz, welcome aboard!
<jsgotangco> lol
* ogra applauds mhz ...
<mhz> mako: thx, hehehe
<sabdfl> the "censorship" here is just Kas enforcing what she understands
<ogra> finally
<Kamion> sabdfl: Kassetra and arnieboy, then? they seem to be the relevant pair
<Seveas> (who has launchpad duty today?)
<Kamion> Seveas: me
<sabdfl> and we can rule that the code is fine to be published (even if we don't like the code)
<mhz> ogra: finally :)
<ogra> :)
<sabdfl> that should be enough for robotgeek to get what he wants
<zakame> yay mhz !
<Seveas> Next up kjcole 
<sabdfl> and Kas to gain a better understanding of the GPL
<mhz> zakame: educool
<kjcole> OK.  I assume we're talking the LoCo names and not my membership.
<MagicFab> bien, mhz :D
<sabdfl> if there is still censorship after that, then it's not accidental
<Seveas> kjcole, correct
<Kamion> sabdfl: right, needs someone who themselves has a good understanding of licensing to talk to them so that if they have other issues then there can be a useful discussion rather than "uh ..."
<mhz> MagicFab: thx, suerte a ti!
<Amaranth> Kamion: Volunteering? :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: they are welcome to ping any of us on IRC, if they need that clarification, but this one is simple, Kas was not correct to jail the thread on the grounds of IP
<Kamion> Amaranth: not especially :-/
<kjcole> I've herded the US cats, as per smurf's request.  The consensus seemed to be Us<<State>><<City|CompassPoint>>
<Kyral> I think we need RMS to talk to her lol
<sabdfl> no need to turn it into a major issue
<Amaranth> Kyral: We don't want to scar her for life...
<Seveas> Kyral, :|
<kjcole> e.g. UsTxAustin or UsTxNorth.
<Kyral> Amaranth: lol
<Kamion> kjcole: domain names aren't wiki-style ...
<raphink> Kyral: +1
<Seveas> kjcole, Do you think there will be so many teams?!
<raphink> lol
* Kyral actually wants to meet RMS :D
<Seveas> Kyral, please don't go off-topic
<Kyral> sorry
<kjcole> Hyphens instead of wiki style was also an option.
<ogra> Seveas, US is a bit bigger than europe ;)
<Seveas> ogra, true, but 2 in texas?
<smurf> kjcole: umm, would that be north.tx.ubuntu-us.org then?
<Kamion> sabdfl: ok, how about I communicate that to her
<jbailey> Seveas: In the US and Canada, it's often not so much number of teams as proximity.
<kjcole> Seveas: The problem is we already have two in texas...
<Seveas> smurf, that and ubutnu-us-tx-north@lists
<Kamion> since everyone else is RUNNING AWAY :-)
<ogra> Seveas, Texas is bigger than europe i guess :)
<jbailey> Seveas: Canada is 14 times the size of France. =)
<raphink> ogra: Tx is not much bigger than France or Germany
<mako> i'm happy to talk to them
<ogra> raphink, but still ...
<Kamion> mako: hooray
* mako knows a couple things about licensingg
* Seveas cheers for mako
<Kamion> :-)
<MagicFab> jbailey: and half the people
<Amaranth> Heh, I was just about to say mako probably knows best. :)
<kjcole> Rewinding a bit: At UBZ, a few were talking about how "country" and "local" meant two different things.
<sabdfl> cheers all
<Seveas> kjcole, anyway, sounds like a plan and since you don't need CC approval for such things you should simply ping smurf to arrange it :)
<mako> i'm going to finish reading the logs and then contact kas and arnieboy
<kjcole> Local (to me and a few others) suggested a community where people were close enough to meet face to face.
<jbailey> MagicFab: Right.  But a 5.5 time zone spread makes meetings very hard. =)
<smurf> Fine with me, anyay
<MagicFab> kjcole: and "locale" too
<smurf> anyway
<Kamion> Seveas: indeed
<mako> does someone have arniboy's email?
<Seveas> mako, will you ask them to come to the meeting too?
<smurf> as long as people don't want ubuntu-us-tx-north.org :-/
<robotgeek> mako: greyrod@gmail.com
<Kamion> Seveas: no, that's obsolete
<robotgeek> nothing's wrong with TX
<Seveas> Kamion, ok
<Kyral> robotgeek: lol
<Seveas> So then we landed at new members
<Kamion> Seveas: sabdfl ruled on it, none of us disagreed (and I think we all heartily agree), end of story :)
<MarioMeyer_> why dont u do sub-domains.. like north.tx.ubuntu-us.org
<raphink> :)
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, they do
<Seveas> Kamion, couldn't agree more
<mako> Seveas: sure
<\sh> smurf: you could sell subdomains to it...like me.at.* like jump.to ,-)
<smurf> \sh: They're Canonical's ;-)
<Seveas> anyway, anyone question/remarks about any of the previous topics?
<MagicFab> I know if I go to Texas I wouldn't be searching for "TX" or "north.tx" 
<Seveas> going once
<robotgeek> Seveas: wait...
<mako> lets move on
<mako> please
<mako> it's gonna be pumpkin time again sooner rather than later
<Seveas> ok
<robotgeek> Seveas: the main issue is not with my script/whatever, but with the censorship. However, that's for later?
<Seveas> robotgeek, yes
<Seveas> moving on now
<Kamion> robotgeek: already ruled on and passed
<robotgeek> good
<Seveas> MagicFab 
<MagicFab> yes
<MagicFab> posting summary...
<MagicFab> WikiPage:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez - re-edited since last CC. I am originally from Colombia, have been living in Quebec Canada since '89. I am part of Canadian Team, Marketing Team and recently helping Colombian Team get started (Loco Contact). I started UbuntuInLibraries, I also occasionally do cleanup on the Wiki, post to forums or help in #ubuntu, #ubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-es.
<MagicFab> I currently work full-time as an Open Source software solutions consultant, focusing on security and migration issues in Montreal. I have developed Linux training focused on Ubuntu which will be given at local libraries and ed. facilities, I have strong links to the local community and I am mostly interested in advocacy/marketing (events, etc.), local support & training and new users introduction / migration to Gnu/Linux
<ogra> MagicFab participated a lot in te ltsp BOFs iirc ...
<Seveas> to add: MagicFab was defered last time, since his wiki page was not clear enough on his contributions (being mainly in advocacy) and he has been asked to return this time after fixing that
<Kamion> mako: did you work with MagicFab over the last two weeks?
<MagicFab> I asked Drobitaille, CBurger , HFiguiere (members) to come, they're all in timezones difficult to come
<MagicFab> BUrger is here, also GuBa from (future) ColombianTeam
<mako> MagicFab: did we? i don't remember doing more than a few messages
<mhz> MagicFab: has also been active on marketing proposals and spreading ubuntu for latinamerican people
<MagicFab> mako: no, I asked for input but didn't get any replies. However I asked other members/users and did many changes
* Kamion finds https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%C3%A1nRodr%C3%ADguezDetail
<Seveas>  Actively marketing and selling Ubuntu-related services locally: <-- any url on that?
<mhz> Seveas, also MagicFab has started UbuntuInLibraries initiative
<mako> i'm still concerned that many of the more substantial projects within the the ubuntu project have pages and edits that are within the last week or two
<MagicFab> http://www.fabianrodriguez.com
<MagicFab> :)
<jsgotangco> mako, as if rushing for something?
<jsgotangco> :)
<Seveas> mhz, yeah I really like that one
<mako> mhz: yes, but that page is 9 days old
<MagicFab> mako: whois
<mako> on a conference call next week, we discussed the idea of giving some more fixed guidelines in terms of what we meaned by sustained projects
<mhz> hmmm, it is probably because many non-english activities related to ubuntu are usually not logged somewhere
<mako> basically, an involvement in/on a particular project that is 2+ months
<mako> mhz: well, then we need testimonials
* mako is still reading the detail page
<Seveas> mako, advocacy is not always in projects
<MagicFab> mako: well, Iasked you driectly for input, didn't get any. I didn't re-add myself to the CC agenda, so I thought it was OK. Regardless, membership is not a requisite for me to keep contributing.
<mhz> mako: that's why having latinamerican ubuntu memebers was so important
<mako> Seveas: i understand that and i have been happy to accept other advocates
<mako> and i'm going to be happy to accept MagicFab too :)
<mako> but in fairness to everyone else, it seems like *some* testimonials would be useful
<mhz> usually, many contributors do not get logged mainly because 99% of what they do is in spanish or other lang.
<mako> in the absence of other documentation
<Seveas> mako, the people who can are not yet here
<mako> mhz: point me to spanish pages then
<mako> other people have
<MagicFab> how can I get that if theycan't come.
<mako> Seveas: i understand that
<jsgotangco> mhz, that shouldnt be an impendiment
<MagicFab> mhz: all my contribs are listed there (my wiki)
<mako> MagicFab: you can have them write it up? as comments on your page
<mako> in email to the CC
<mako> there are many options
<Seveas> mako, that's an idea
<mhz> jsgotangco: i know, it is just that even I had to make a decision... english or spanish. I chose english.
<mako> i believe we have solved the communicating asynchronously problem ;)
<Kamion> mako: perhaps we could mail those that Fabian lists under People and ask them for comments
<Kamion> (hub, corey, daniel, sivan)
<mhz> MagicFab: do you have a list or something?
<mako> Kamion: seems good
<MagicFab> mako: yes
<mhz> mako: good point
<MagicFab> Kamion: exactly
<Kamion> mhz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fabi%c3%a1nRodr%c3%adguez
<MagicFab> mako: they all need to be current members, right ?
<Seveas> MagicFab, not per se
<Kamion> mako: wanna do that, or shall I?
<Seveas> but it helps
<Kamion> certainly all the above are known to me, although I don't know hub so well
<mako> MagicFab: they should have been around for a long time and are well known and trusted by the CC and teh community
<mako> MagicFab: that will almost always make them members :)
<mako> but need not
<MagicFab> One thing I sense is that advocacy is always treated as second-class work. I feel I could become member by going MOTU in 1/10 the time
<Amaranth> MagicFab: It's easier to show MOTU work.
<Kamion> MagicFab: it's not so much second-class as much harder to "measure"
<MagicFab> And, well, without advocacy what would we do ?
<mako> MagicFab: that's not true
<jsgotangco> MagicFab, that ain't true...
<Seveas> kamion +1
* jsgotangco is more of advocate rather than developer
<ogra> MagicFab, you cant become MOTU without being member 
<mako> i can think of a dozen members off of my top of my head who have pure advocacy
<jjesse> MagicFab: it took me 4 or 5 tries to be a member
<mako> probably 50% are pure advocacy memberships (even if they do other things)
<MagicFab> Well, it's not encouraging any advocacy work to just say "it's harder" - I mentioned in the last CC there needed to be more info for this kind of contributing
<ogra> MagicFab, but indeed its easier to document a handfull of bugs you solved than social work
<smurf> MagicFab: you forget that MOTU work is not visible most of the time -- all the hours of hacking on your box to find those damn bugs ...
<jsgotangco> ogra, true the social work really needs to be visible...
<ogra> yup
<mako> MagicFab: we talked about creating guidelines in a conference call after the next meeting
<ogra> and bugs are in bugzilla already
<Kamion> s/next/last/
<MagicFab> ogra: I'd like to work on that too -
<ogra> great :)
<jsgotangco> jjesse, only because you don't go to meetings often before =)
<mako> MagicFab: you're not beiing rejected and you shouldn't feel that way
<teroedni> :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: grin :)
<MagicFab> smurf: will setup a CVS for my UBuntu mentions all day :)
<mako> we ask everyone for 2 full months of sustained, significant, and  visible contributions
<MagicFab> mako : I don't  ;) I feel like my membership process is testing some new ground
<mako> frequently, the visible the hard part :)
<jsgotangco> growing pains
<Seveas> MagicFab, it is
<bhuvan> MagicFab, you must not take it that way
<MagicFab> mako: ONE month
<MagicFab> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberProcess?highlight=%28newmember%29
<zakame> jsgotangco: here here! :D
<MagicFab> or two depending on sources - that's what I mean
<MagicFab> anyways, I
<mako> MagicFab: we're probably going to change that :)
<MagicFab>  will get involved in the NewMember stuff, hope to learn more from there
<Seveas> MagicFab, cool, glad you don't feel rejected
<bhuvan> MagicFab, good
<mako> MagicFab: where does it say one month?
<Seveas> mako, you have said that before, so I put that on the what-to-do-if-you-want-to-be-a-member page
<mako> MagicFab: also, that is a wikipage, not an official process page
<zakame> MagicFab: go rock the advocacy :D
<Kamion> MagicFab: the mention of a month there is about people who never show up for discussion
<mako> Seveas: cool
<mhz> MagicFab: how old is tha include you made and shared with me ?
<mako> alright, lets go on
<Seveas> LaserJock, 
<Seveas> (JordanMantha)
<Seveas> give us the 3-line intro please
<LaserJock> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha
<LaserJock> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/mantha
<LaserJock> I am a 4th year PhD student in Physical Chemistry at the University of Nevada, Reno. I have been using Ubuntu since the Hoary Array CDs. I use it at work for data collection and analysis (as well as packaging on the side ;-) ) I've been helping out the MOTU since a few weeks before the Breezy release. I try to do whatever I can to help.
<LaserJock> Basically, I try to focus on scientific package since I feel the need for that. For Breezy I worked on unmet deps and FTBFS as much as I could while learning to package.
<LaserJock> I have done some merges and worked on some bugs. I also started a MOTUScience team and a working on an Ubuntu Packaging Guide for the doc-team. 
<bhuvan> LaserJock have been doing good job on packaging guide for quite some time
<jsgotangco> yay
<Seveas> ok, MOTU people, we need advocates :)
<MagicFab> Kamion: I'll dig it - the point is the process is CONFUSING and excluding advocacy because "it's hard to measure". I'll try harder to measure it, so should you
<jjesse> LaserJock: is working hard on the doc team
<Amaranth> LaserJock: ever get any feedback upstream on the science category?
<ogra> and at the MOTUs
<LaserJock> Amaranth: don't think so yet
<LaserJock> Amaranth: I will keep track of it though
<Amaranth> LaserJock: if not snag the icon from the bug and see if seb128 will do it as a patch for now
<crimsun> I worked with Jordan prior to Breezy's release; a couple of his changes are in Breezy
<Kyral> LaserJock: I think the only thing we got back was the email tag about FlowDesigner
<ogra> he's around for quite some time already and did a lot of merges i'd consider myself as rather advanced tasks 
<crimsun> I've also uploaded a host of his merge work for Dapper
<dholbach> i was very happy to see LaserJock start the motuscience team and start working on organising the MOTU part of the wiki
<Seveas> ok, the cheerleaders are happy :)
<Amaranth> aye
<jsgotangco> yeahh
<Kamion> MagicFab: yeah, it's something we talked about on the phone the other week and will be trying to improve
<MagicFab> crimsun: for how long ;)
<zakame> go go go LaserJock :)
<seb128> Amaranth: what?
<crimsun> MagicFab: a bit longer than two months
<Seveas> LaserJocks wikipage looks ok, syncing is a good job :)
<ogra> and wxwidgets is an evil package to start with, kudos ...
<bhuvan> LaserJock, you should have included your doc patches in your wiki
<Seveas> :)
<LaserJock> ogra: yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into 
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> but you did it :)
<Seveas> LaserJock, to boldly merge what no one ever merged before
<Kamion> prior to breezy's release => nearly more than two months already
<LaserJock> Seveas: lol, ignorance instead of boldness maybe
<Seveas> LaserJock, well you pulled it off
<Seveas> that's a big +
<\sh> laserjock for membership? I'm happy to see him as member and later on as motu :)
<LaserJock> \sh: eventually. one step at a time
<Seveas> the crowd is happy, but what about the CC?
<mako> there's certainly a lot of work h ere
<jsgotangco> solid work really
<Kamion> there are uploads from LaserJock going back to September, anyway
<\sh> LaserJock: no excuses no running away :)
* ogra remembers that mako can speak from a MOTU POV too now :)
<dholbach> haha
* dholbach hugs mako :)
* ogra hugs mako too
<mako> airght
<bhuvan> dholbach you hug frequently :)
<\sh> oh yes...mako...welcome to MOTU :) we're waiting for your merges ;9
<raphink> :)
<mako> LaserJock sounds fine with me
<ogra> bhuvan, he's a true hugger
<Kamion> I'm very happy to see somebody taking up a bunch of science applications, and am happy with LaserJock for membership
<elmo> ack from me too
<Seveas> LaserJock, congratz!
<dholbach> congratulations, LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> cheers
<LaserJock> thanks CC, thanks all you supporters
<Seveas> welcome to the Ubuntumember boat
<\sh> LaserJock: welcome aboard :)
<Kamion> LaserJock: a lot of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline seems like it would fit under the banner of developer-documentation (discussed at UBZ; conclusion was to make a small branch of the Debian Developer's Reference)
* LaserJock hugs everybody
<ogra> yay for LaserJock 
<Seveas> Next up: Kyral (Chris Peterman)
<zakame> yay LaserJock :D
<Kyral> Wiki: wiki.ubuntu.com/ChrisPeterman
<Kamion> it might be worthwhile looking at that rather than duplicating several years of work in Debian
<LaserJock> Kamion: I talked to Diziet about that. He thought it was ok
<Kamion> ok ...
<LaserJock> Kamion: I will keep in touch with him though
<Kamion> thanks
<Seveas> Kyral has been quite active in #ubuntu
* ogra waits for the three liner intor
<ogra> *intro
<Kyral> Greetings. I am currently a second year CS Major at Clarkson University. Currently I am helping out mostly on the Forums, but I have also recently been helping out LaserJock with MOTUScience. I have also started a small LocoTeam between Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam. Currently running Dapper on both my Desktop on Laptop
<Seveas> that's line one :)
<Seveas> what are your plans for Ubuntu activity?
<\sh> he forgot to tell us that he was the first pupil in ubuntus motu school :)
<mhz> LaserJock: yahooo!
<MagicFab> for how long ?
<Kyral> Yah, I got jumped by 4 MOTUs last Wednesday
<ogra> \sh, did he behave while you were teaching him ? :)
<raphink> lol
<Seveas> IRC activity dates back quite some time
<\sh> ogra: well...yes..but he forgot his homework :)
<Kyral> RIght now I have finals coming up so Ubuntu is kinda on the backburner
<Kyral> However in-between semesters I will pick up on my activity again, hopefully finishing FlowDesigner's patches
* ogra thinks he remembers Kyral from #ubuntu when he was active there himself ...
<Kyral> In addition I have signed up to write the Install Guide for the DocTeam and I plan to help LaserJock with the packaging Guide
<mako> when was this?
<Seveas> ogra, correct
<ogra> mako, way ago ... 
<Kyral> mako: When was what?
<Seveas> My logs only date back to sept 23 and he was active then
<Amaranth> oh crap, finals
* Amaranth goes to study
<ogra> i think i stopped being highly active there during my work on hwdb
<Seveas> but i'm pretty sure i've seen him far before that too
<MagicFab> Kyral, can you tell us since when you consider you have contributing to Ubuntu ?
<ogra> so mid hoary ...
<Kyral> My Forums registration date is about May
<Kyral> I believe
* ogra notes that he starts to measure time in ubuntu releases ... is that worrying ? 
<Nafallo> ogra: totally the way to go :-)
<Seveas> Join Date: 05-19-2005
<Seveas> Posts
<Seveas> Total Posts: 1,650 (8.21 posts per day)
<Seveas> (kyral @ forums)
<ogra> hehe
<jsgotangco> ogra, tsk tsk....
<LaserJock> ogra: better than Debian releases ;-)
<ogra> loool
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<raphink> lol
<Kyral> Most of my work has been in the Forums Community, specializing in the Desktop Support and Absolute Beginners Talk forums. I have written two helper threads for the ABT Forum, Terminal For Beginners and Window Managers for Beginners
<zakame> hehe
<Seveas> I'd be happy with Kyral as member given his support work on IRC and the forums
<MagicFab> So that's easy to measure. Forum posts.
<kjcole> ogra: Sounds like the Zork Flathead calendar... warty, hoary, breezy...
<Kyral> I recently helped Brunellus write the Fluxbox wiki page
<mako> hmm.. impressive inregards to the forums.. and a quick glance over implies good qualiity
* mako is happy with membership
<Kamion> MagicFab: I'm not personally convinced by post count as a measure of contribution though
* mhz has read those 'helper threads', very illustrative
<mako> Kamion: yes
<jsgotangco> MagicFab, quantity doesnt count
<MagicFab> Kyral: what % of your contributions would you say are advocacy andor business related
<mako> Kamion: i always spot check
<LaserJock> Kyral has been lots of help with MOTUScience, he has 2 science package on REVU right now and he is always eager to help
<Kyral> I have also helped people on campus install Ubuntu
* mhz also read the Fluxbox wiki page and even subscribed. That was a very KISS page
<Kyral> MagicFab: I don't do business, I'm just a simple CS Major
<MagicFab> jsgotangco: well then don't, I just said it's easy to measure, never mentioned quality (tx. mhz)
<Kyral> They are very happy with it and were surprised that it was that easy
<MagicFab> Kyral: advocacy ? 
<crimsun> Chris has been active in #ubuntu for 3+ months. I'm fairly active in that channel.
<Kamion> the referenced pieces of documentation seem to be pretty clear documentation for beginners, to me
<Kamion> MagicFab: it's not particularly easy to measure, although it is at least visible so we have something to go to
<Kyral> Next semester in combination with the rest of the PNYTeam I hope to deploy Edubuntu into the Potsdam NY school district
<ogra> crimsun, sure thats not been longer (much longer ?)
<Kamion> (well, the *useful* thing isn't easy to measure :-))
<nalioth> Kyral does help out quite a bit on IRC, and has for some time
<ogra> yay
<ogra> ++ for edubuntu promotion
<crimsun> ogra: I'm fairly sure it's at the very least 3 months
<Kyral> But that one is still up in the air as I have to go through one of my professors who has the contacts in the district
<crimsun> s/fairly//
<mhz> Kyral: educool!
<mhz> :)
<Kyral> But an InstallFest is VERY Likely
<Seveas> crimsun, that's the very least, it's been 4 months more :)
<mhz> Kyral: i hope you join #edubuntu after meeting
<Kamion> I'm happy with Kyral for membership after checking up on some of the references
* mako nods
<Kyral> mhz: After the meeting I need to go to class :D
<mhz> Kyral: okis, then as soon as you can :)
<ogra> mhz, he sometimes is there ...
<mhz> indeed
<mako> alright, i'm running short on time here
<Seveas> ok, next up raphink 
<Kyral> Actually I am too
<raphink> ok
<Seveas> if elmo has voted 
<raphink> (WikiPage : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson ; Launchpad : https://launchpad.net/people/raphink )
<Seveas> so not yet :)
<raphink> I'm a 23-year-old french guy, formerly studying aeronautical engineering. I'm involved in packaging for Ubuntu, and a MOTU Wanabee, having already been granted the right to review on the REVU system.
<raphink> My first contact with Ubuntu was with Warty on PPC, although I mostly used Debian Sid during the last year, before switching to Kubuntu with Breezy.
<raphink> I spend a lot of time on IRC helping on #kubuntu, #ubuntu, #kubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-fr channels and more, since about mid-. I also contributed a bit to bug fixes and translations on Rosetta.
<raphink> huhu
<elmo> ack for kyral
<raphink> sorry
<Seveas> elmo, cool
<ogra> welcome Kyral 
<Seveas> Kyral, welcome!
* Kyral smiles
<Kyral> now, if you will excuse me, I have to run to class :D
<kjcole> Kyral: Congrats
<ogra> go to class .... 
<raphink> :)
<raphink> s/mid-/mid-october/
<Kamion> Kyral: BTW not entirely sure about your strategy for debugging the build-essential/PLF thing - apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true is often a lot quicker
<mhz> Kyral: wlecome edubuntero :D
<mako> where is your lp page?
<Seveas> https://launchpad.net/people/raphink
<Kyral> mine?
<mako> no
<raphink> mine is where Seveas just pointed ;)
<raphink> (although I have posted it in my "3-line-intro" too)
<mako> sorry, misseed it
<dholbach> one thing i can say about raphink is that i was impressed that he reviewed packages on REVU and mailed the contributors (although he was no motu yet)... i talked to siretart, to give raphink comment-rights in revu.
<raphink> shall I post again?
<Seveas> raphink, no
<ogra> raphink, we can scroll
<mako> no no,it's fine
<raphink> ok :)
<ogra> dholbach++
<Seveas> raphink, is indeed helpful for REVU
<MagicFab> raphink: since when ?
<mako> have long have you been doing the revue work?
<raphink> MagicFab: since very recently if that makes you feel comfortable ;)
<raphink> mako: I have been granted the review rights only a few days ago
<mako> right
<raphink> I have had packages on REVU since about 20 days i'd say
<MagicFab> raphink: just logging stuff ;)
<Seveas> raphink, that's a bit too short I'm afraid
<raphink> and began to be active on IRC in mid-october
<MagicFab> raphink: also checking if I should go MOTU
<mako> ok, i'd prefer a little longer term contributions in there areas personally
<MagicFab> ;)
<raphink> Seveas: I reckon it's recent contributinos
<mako> not much, 1-2 more meetings worth
<Seveas> raphink, see you in 2006 ;)
<jsgotangco> LOL
* mako shrugs
<mako> that's not the law
<raphink> hehe
<mako> that's just my gut feelingg right now
* MagicFab has to run
<Kamion> yeah, I'd tend to go with mako, although what I see so far is good
<Seveas> mako, but I do agree with it
<mako> if Kamion or elmo disagrees, that's fine too
<raphink> bye MagicFab 
<mako> alright guys
<mako> i'm coming up on a hard end to my time here
<Seveas> he's done good work, so in a few weeks he'll fly by
<juliux> hi all
* mako nods
<raphink> hi juliux 
<Seveas> there's 3 more to go
<ogra> so speed up ...
<MagicFab> I'd like this question to be asked to all members: since when have you been contributing. Just want to understand this better. Will review the logs.
<raphink> there's just the fact that it's a funny situation to be granted review rights without being a member, but if that's alright ;)
* ogra fears the yellow mako
<mako> i have 9 more minutes
<Seveas> ok, next up kjcole 
<Seveas> 3 line intro please
* MagicFab gotta go - cheers to all
<kjcole> Summary:
<Seveas> cya MagicFab 
<kjcole> I'm a co-author for the Edubuntu Cookbook (WIP), and working at a university exclusively for deaf students, am involved with the Accessibility Team (and trying to involve students and faculty here). I've contributed several bug reports on Launchpad. Last May, I helped run an InstallFest with Ubuntu as the distro of choice. I helped run a local Software Freedom Day event. I'm now the Washington, DC LoCo Team leader/contact (replacing Paul Flint
<kjcole> s switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
<Seveas> kjcole, sounds cool
<hno73> I can confirm that kjcole has been doing good work on the Accessibility Team 
<kjcole> (And, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinCole and https://launchpad.net/people/kjcole since those questions come up a lot here.)
<ogra> kjcole, is a active edubuntu contributor ....
<Kamion> first line cut off at "(replacing Paul Flint"
<jsgotangco> same here
<Seveas> your wikipage is a bit incomplete it seems
<mako> well, it's not bad, but it's doesn't represent all that you've contributed :0
<jsgotangco> he's relatively new but he's been focused on stuff
<kjcole> int). We've gotten some local businesses switched to Ubuntu, and have installed it in two local public libraries. I also worked on LTSP.org's wiki at UBZ.
<mako> there are some quite significant pieces of docs in there
<ogra> the edubuntu cookbook is *very* significant
<Seveas> the freenx howto is a bit redundant :)
* mhz has seen a lot kjcole around interacting in IRC and AT
<jsgotangco> ogra, where is it located at this time btw?
<ogra> jsgotangco, you should know :P
<jsgotangco> ogra, oh right...yes...
<ogra> heh
<kjcole> ogra: Elkner and I have set up weekly meetings to work on the Cookbook.  Making good progress.
<ogra> cool
<mako> kjcole: very excellent
<mako> any testimonials?
<ogra> i'd like to look over it for the tech POV ... but that doesnt belong here 
<jsgotangco> well he did took over the cookbook from me....
<jsgotangco> (when i started with my new job)
<mhz> mako: kjcole has been very commited to edubuntu
<ogra> he was very active in the ltsp BOFs at montreal
* mako nods
<jsgotangco> his experience with AT has been helping the newly formed AT team
* mako is happy with kjcole as a member for the documentation work alone
<mako> it's impressive
<hno73> he makes good contributions in discussions on accessibility
<mako> oh, and acccessibility
<mhz> we need kjcole 
<Kamion> mm, right, sorry I've been quiet, I've been lost in the huge pile of documentation ;-)
<mhz> hehehehe
<Seveas> Kamion, that's a good sign :)
<mako> alright guys, 3 minutes for me
<ogra> vote !!
<Seveas> Kamion, elmo any verdict on kjcole ?
<Kamion> yeah, I'm happy
<Seveas> cool, that's 2 
<ogra> elmo ?
<elmo> ack
<Kamion> NEXT
<Kamion> Steve Kowalik
<Seveas> cool, welcome kjcole 
<StevenK> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveKowalik
<ogra> welcome kjcole 
<Seveas> StevenK, 
<StevenK> I'm 24 years old, and have been a Debian developer since August of 2001. I have done 12 or so merges of universe packages, and have been helping on #ubuntu-motu with technical questions as well. My immediate plans for Ubuntu include becoming an MOTU to help with the merge until the UVF, and fixing up xemacs, since at the moment, its a little broken, and unusable for my purposes.
* mako is familiar with steve's work from debian
<kjcole> Thanks.  When can I expect the secret decoder ring and X-ray vision glasses in the mail? ;-)
<ogra> dholbach, asked me for:
<Seveas> StevenK, just a note: you don't have to be a motu to help
<ogra> <dholbach> I was very glad to see StevenK 1) learning the different workflows in the motu team so quickly and 2) helping other MOTU hopefuls, since he knew part of the story as a DD already"
<StevenK> Seveas: Of course not.
<Kamion> kjcole: could you propose yourself for the ubuntumembers team in LP please? https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join
<mhz> kjcole: edubuntu people rock!
<mako> StevenK: how long have you been hanging around these parts?
<StevenK> mako: Not long enough? :-)
<ogra> Seveas, see the dholbach quote
<ogra> 2) especially
<StevenK> mako: It hasn't been long. A few weeks is rough guess.
<mako> StevenK: cool, lets put this off for a couple more then if that's alright
<mako> StevenK: cool to see you around here :)
<StevenK> Couple more weeks, or meetings?
<Seveas> twice as many weeks as meeting :)
<Seveas> but i'd say 2 meeting should do
<mako> probably a couple meetings to be fair
<raphink> that seems mathematically correct Seveas ;)
<Kamion> shrug, I don't have a problem either way since Steve's been doing lots of Debian work for ages (and thereby effectively contributing to Ubuntu if you want to look at it that way)
* mako nods
<ogra> Kamion++
<Kamion> but if we want to defer for fairness to other folks, that's fine too
<mako> we have said we'd taken debian work as a form of indirect contribution
<mhz> Kamion: very important point
<ogra> elmo, any opinion ? 
* mako has not objections to steve either
<Kamion> the only caveat to the above is making sure people know the ropes and are happy to stay around
<elmo> I don't mind either
<Kamion> (trying to avoid Debian's problem of lots of inactive people, really)
<Kamion> Steve's been in Debian for years though so I figure he has some degree of staying power
<ogra> was that a vote ? 
<mako> StevenK: does that sound OK?
<StevenK> Um, there was a conclusion reached?
<mako> StevenK: you gonna stay around?
<Kamion> that was the least conclusive vote EVAH
<Seveas> :)
<mako> StevenK: feel like you know the ropes?
<StevenK> mako: I'm planning on sticking around, anyway.
<mako> StevenK: if you're alright committing now, i think we're happy approving you for membership
<StevenK> mako: I'm getting there quickly.
<mako> cool
<ogra> mako, he helps and teaches MOTU hopefulls, seems he knows the ropes
<mako> killer
<mako> alright,
<mako> i am overdue alright
<Kamion> right, StevenK++ since we know and trust him from elsewhere
<mako> was ther eone more
<Seveas> yes, zyga
<Kamion> azeem was the last
<zyga> hi
<StevenK> Hell, I wrote a package checker. That implies I know packaging. :-)
<Kamion> oh, zyga
<mako> two more than!
<zyga> Zygmunt Krynicki 23, freelance programmer
<mako> StevenK: i'm familiarr with it
<Kamion> elmo: I'll take "I don't mind either" as a yes
<zyga> I've been here befor a month ago, since then I've been active in -desktop team
<StevenK> Thanks for the approval, though.
<ogra> so may we say welcome StevenK ?
<ogra> :)
<elmo> Kamion: ok ;)
<ogra> yeah
<zyga> I've got an (almost) fully impolemented spec, for command-not-found, together with mvo's help
<Seveas> welcome StevenK then :)
<mhz> StevenK: welcome!
<mako> alright guys, im two hours late to work already
<StevenK> Thanks!
<mako> i am going to run
<Seveas> mako, :(
<StevenK> I might run, too.
<zyga> I'm also working with pitti on .desktop files (mainly patches to code on my side)
<Kamion> mako: seeya
<StevenK> Considering it's 3am.
<Seveas> mako, have fun at work, seeya next time
<zyga> I've been active on the translation arena
<mako> please go ahead
<zyga> as well as local (ubuntu.pl) arena
<Kamion> ok, sorry everyone, but we just became inquorate - we can go through people and mako can catch up later to complete approvals
<zyga> I still need to devote more time for motu ruby 
<Seveas> mako, I'll e-mail you the relevant log
<Seveas> (for zyga/azeem)
<mako> if you guys come to consensus, i give mhz permission to install a bot to pester me ever 5 minutes until i answer one way or another
<zyga> I guess that's it, the rest is on my profile page
<kjcole> As it is 11:00 AM, and I'm theoretically working for my office... I'm outa here.  Thanks again.  TTYL.
<zyga> I'm happy to answer any questions you may have
<Kamion> mvo: around?
<ogra> ciao kjcole 
<azeem> we can just defer me to the next meeting, no problem
<mvo> Kamion: yes
<Seveas> azeem, rock
<mhz> mako: mean me or mdz?
<Kamion> mvo: opinions on zyga?
<mako-pumpkin> mhz: you
<mako-pumpkin> later
<mhz> bye
<Seveas> .desktop + gettext sounds cool
<mvo> I'm happy with zyga contribution, he did a lot of good work on cmd-not-found spec
<mvo> +1 from me on membership
<ogra> he pushes me to inally make hwdb gettextable, so ++ from here ...
<ogra> *finally
<zyga> oh right :)
<zyga> I need to send you that :)
<mvo> very active on various fronts :)
<zyga> I keep forgetting ;P
<ogra> me too, me too
<ogra> :)
<zyga> oh no actually, you need that bzr branch, right?
<ogra> yup
<zyga> k
<ogra> but its on my todo for this week
<ogra> (officially)
<Kamion> Scope
<Kamion> This idea touches nearly every single package from universe and some packages in main. 
<Kamion> ^-- concerning ...
<Kamion> (we generally try REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD to avoid touching the whole of universe for anything at all)
<zyga> Kamion: that's for the future :-)
<pitti> Hi
<zakame> hi pitti 
<Kamion> zyga: just logging something I perceive as insanity now rather than later :)
<zyga> Kamion: it might be implemented for dapper+1 as a test run. I won't have enough time to finish it before 
<Kamion> but you seem to be contributing all over the place anyway and you've been around for some time, so I have no problem saying yes
<zyga> Kamion: and it needs some good understanding of how updated langpacks work out
<pitti> zyga> So far I worked with Zygmunt with translation-related things; we discussed some improvements and some ideas about enhancing langpacks/rosetta
<pitti> and I was really impressed by his work for LangpacksLocales
<pitti> he provided patches, tests, etc.
<pitti> I would be glad to see him as a member
<Kamion> ok, works for me, thanks
<Kamion> elmo?
<elmo> yeah, ack
<pitti> (sorry for being late; I'm still not used to the rotation)
<Kamion> pitti: you and me both, I think it's more shuffling than rotation
<Seveas> cool, mhz, start the mako-ping-bot ;)
<mhz> hehehehe
<Kamion> Michael Banck
<Seveas> Kamion, which brings us to the last item
<Kamion> another long-time Debian guy
<Seveas> azeem didn't mind being defered
<zyga> Yah
<Kamion> ok, that would be simpler
* zyga lost one line and was kept waiting for something already there :)
<Seveas> so next is scheduling
<zyga> thanks
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep cacth you guys later
<Seveas> I received a total of zero seggestions on a new CC schedule
<pitti> congrats, zyga, and welcome
<zyga> thanks :))
<Seveas> which is a bit less than expected :)
<Kamion> Seveas: and again we've missed mako, d'oh
<Seveas> Kamion, shall I just do this via E-mail for the next meeting and pester people to reply?
<Kamion> personally I have no idea what mako's schedule is nowadays (since he isn't working for Canonical any more)
<elmo> we should set up a list, and organize it by email
<ogra> lets do the scheduling at the beginning next time, so he can intervene
<Kamion> Seveas: I think mailing the four of us would be moderately useful, yes, and what elmo said about a list
<Kamion> shall I poke jdub about that?
<elmo> nah, mail RT
<elmo> I can do that these days
<Kamion> 'k
<Seveas> ubuntu-cc@lists I guess?
<Seveas> or cummonity-council@lists
* Kamion was thinking community-council@ or ubuntu-council@
<Seveas> well, with the o and u swapped
<Seveas> I'd prefer community-council@
<elmo> I don't much care; I'll create whichever I'm told
<Seveas> hehe
<elmo> but anyway, since we can't organize the schedule now - is there anything else?
<Seveas> no
* Seveas hands elmo the hammer
<mhz> Seveas: was mako serious on the botting issue?
<elmo> Kamion: good on your side?
<elmo> mhz: no
<mhz> cool
* mhz can really be a pian in the neck if asked to :D
<Seveas> :)
<Kamion> oh, should community-council@ be publicly archived?
<Seveas> I'd say yes
<Kamion> personally I'm thinking not because we do sometimes need the facility for private discussion
<elmo> Kamion: I'd guess not - anything substantive that's public should be done in a more public forum
<Seveas> will it be 'open for the public' to subscribe?
<Kamion> Seveas: no
<Kamion> it's more along the lines of a contact address
<Seveas> only the 4 of you?
<Kamion> right
<Kamion> it should be possible for people to mail "the community council"
* mhz wanted to have over 1000 mails
<Seveas> ok, then I'll mention it as a contact address in the report
<ogra> mhz, you dont want that ...
<mhz> hehehe
<ogra> there are days in have twice as much ...
<mhz> ogra: I love to 'delte' emais from inbox
<mhz> :D
<Kamion> and it should probably be possible for people to mail it with roughly the same expectation of privacy as they have from mailing a person (i.e. some)
<ogra> (normally its aroud 3-400)
<Seveas> Kamion, can I/ogra/dholbach/smurf as active CC-meeting-followers subscribe or is it strictly the four of you?
<elmo> Seveas: it's a contact address for the CC
<Kamion> elmo: RTed
<elmo> so it should be limited to the CC
<Seveas> ok
<elmo> IMO
<elmo> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> Seveas: as elmo says, wider discussion can be held on other fora (e.g. sounder@) or people can be cc'ed for input on specific issues
<jsgotangco> sounder is good
<Seveas> OK, then that'll be all I guess
<Seveas> I'm going to make and eat dinner and then write the summary for {devel,sounder,cc,fridge}
<Kamion> I don't mean to be exclusionary here, I don't expect there will be lots of stuff there, but a contact address is getting increasingly required
<Kamion> and in cases of dispute resolution other people may very well want it to be limited-circulation
<Kamion> ok, I think we're done, thanks all
<robotgeek> later
<Seveas> later all
<zakame> yay
<Seveas> 2 weeks from now, at a time to be discussed :)
* robotgeek will be there
<Seveas> cool
<mhz> see ya all
<robotgeek> Seveas: do i need to be a member to add to the agenda?
<Seveas> robotgeek, no, what do you want to add?
<robotgeek> Seveas: the whole forum/wiki. i'll write up a summary, and post it so that people can get a fair idea. since, hopefully the forum mods will be tehre next time
<robotgeek> not specific to my case, tho
<nalioth> there are forums issues that affect the whole community
<ogra> but hard to discuss if the people in charge never show up
<nalioth> quite.
<mhz_lunch> ogra: so, maybe now jdub will answer my emails :D
<robotgeek> ogra: i'm more concerned with the 'splitting' up of the community, with double efforts here and there
<robotgeek> it's a nasty issue, but it will need to be solved sooner or later
<ogra> robotgeek, i'm concerned about that since warty ... but it doesnt help...
<zakame> er we don't want either sides to feel alienated :/
<ogra> i.e. you are either a forum person or you are a mailing list person ... i'm the latter and i dont know whats going on in the forums ...
<jsgotangco> same here
<ogra> others wont know whts up with the mailing lists
<jsgotangco> and the ml is more unmoderated
<robotgeek> i think the forums are a part of the community. i mostly do irc/wiki, but do post on the forums sometimes. However, stuff claiming to be "this is the real ubuntu/guide/whatever" don't really contribute to ubuntu as a whole
<azeem> ogra: bidirect gateways to the rescue!
<ogra> yes, but there are more active devs at least taking a glance 
<ogra> azeem, we have them ...
<azeem> yeah, I know
<robotgeek> anyways, looks like i've rambled enough :)
<Seveas> robotgeek, please don't edit the CC agenda today though, I'm making my weekly edit
<robotgeek> Seveas: no, i just added that link as someone asked me to do so. I havent (won't) touch it further. 
<nalioth> y'all be safe
<robotgeek> well, a fruitful first meeting for me. later all
<zakame> bye all, and peace! :)
<ubuntugeek_> meeting over?
<Kamion> yes
<Kamion> it started two-and-a-half hours ago, just finished
<ubuntugeek_> ok
<ubuntugeek_> i'll email the people who need to hear what i gotta say then
<ubuntugeek_> thanks
<mhz_lunch> mako: you'll have to vote update on some members :)
<mako> i don't have time to takea  look at that right now
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, can you cc me in that mail please
<Seveas> I'm writing the summary of that meeting and would ike to include it
<ubuntugeek_> email?
<ubuntugeek_> i can basically state it here if you want
<Seveas> that's good too
<ubuntugeek_> well i am tired of this bullshit surrounding the forums and the ubuntu community and the community council.. I am seriously considering terminating the project or removing the official status it has. 
<ubuntugeek_> thats all i have to say right now i'll make my decision known
<jsgotangco> bullshit with the council?
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, im very sorry to hear that
<ubuntugeek_> i find it hard to accept the CC an make any rules or decisions when they dont even visit the forums
<jsgotangco> do you mean the CC doesn't apply very well to a forums setting?
<ubuntugeek_> well i have yet to see that anyone actually understands how the forums work let alone care to find out.. from the previous cc meetings i have been in.
<ubuntugeek_> jsgotangco: yes 100% correct
<Kamion> this week's issue seemed pretty independent of what setting it happened to be in
<azeem> ubuntugeek_: this is why the CC invited the forum admins to join their meeting for the next time
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, you're right with that, but this (the issue on the agenda now) is a dispute between a fw community members
<Seveas> that it takes place on the forums is not the essence
<Kamion> i.e. it was claimed that somebody in charge attempted to stop people from distributing changes to a GPLed work on the grounds that it was illegal
<ubuntugeek_> i look at the CC agenda I see.. "We already had a discussion about locking or removing discussion. Apparently that still happens. IMHO this needs to be addressed, among other problems these threads are an example of. -- MatthiasUrlichs"
<Seveas> deleting posts and threads is however frowned upon, but no one wanted to judge that without you and other admins being able to defend it
<Kamion> ubuntugeek_: dude that's just a (relatively) random person's comment on the agenda, it's not a CC opinion
<Kamion> anyone can edit that agenda, it's a wiki page
<jsgotangco> i'm pretty confident people in the CC or even in this channel go to the forum every while
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, please look at the agenda again in 10 minutes after I did the weekly update to reflect the current status
<ubuntugeek_> seveas: ok.. please put on agenda "the future of the forums" for dicussion at the next meeting then
<Kamion> the main problem from our side is that most of the times that people ask for an opinion on some issue, only the aggrieved party shows up
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, will do
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the date and time of the next meeting are not yet known, I'll keep you pasted
<ubuntugeek_> well its hard to show up well its off time for me or when i work..
<Seveas> posted*
<Kamion> which puts us in a very difficult position; I for one don't want to make a decision based on hearing only one side of the issue
<ubuntugeek_> and when i do show its a waste anyways no one gives a shit what i say
<Kamion> in this case references were given and they seemed to be pretty clear
<Kamion> but we refrained from getting into anything about locking/deleting posts
<azeem> Kamion: so assuming that agenda item changes are emailed to the CC members, couldn't one of you (or a secretary) try to invite the other parties to the netx meeting as well?
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the CC does care about what you say, as much as they care about any other member 
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: I dont agree with that 100% but ok..
<Kamion> azeem: yes, we need to get better at that; I only actually remembered to subscribe to that wiki page today so ...
<Seveas> there are others that may put disrespecting things on the agenda, but the agenda does not reflect the opinion of the CC
<Seveas> the log of the meetings does
<ubuntugeek_> Ok I said what i need to say, i need to get back to work.. thanks
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, thanks for showing up
<\sh> well...locking and deleting posts on german forums means normally, that the maintainer is responsible for every post on maintained forum website...which means he can be charged even if the maintainer didn't write this post
<Kamion> to be perfectly honest it seems more like you don't care what we say - we've ended up in the position of being an arbitration body for your debates, but you keep saying our opinions aren't valid
<Kamion> which is very difficult to deal with
<azeem> \sh: you mean from a legal POV?
<\sh> azeem: yes..
<azeem> i.e. if somebody external sues
<azeem> ok
<Kyral> can't we please just get along....
<Kamion> it would really help if we could somehow agree that some things are social issues independent of the setting
<Kamion> I'd far rather be dealing with social issues that aren't intrinsically connected to the setting they're in anyway
<Kamion> and ultimately, most disagreements between people are just that - people are people regardless of whether they're on a mailing list, on IRC, or in a web forum
<ubuntugeek_> Kamion: until the forums are understood 100% and we can agree its going to be a biased decision.. 
<Kamion> mostly they're decisions about people, not about forums
<azeem> ubuntugeek_: is there documentation somewhere the CC members should read up on?
* Kyral sighs
* jsgotangco curls to bed
<Kyral> I hate this fight I really do. As a Member and as an active Forums user this is a very distressing fight
<ubuntugeek_> azeem: just participate in the forums thats the best way to understand
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: agreed.. 
<Kyral> ubuntugeek_: I do participate and I don't see the problem
<Kamion> would it be valid for us to say that you can't understand Ubuntu unless you participate in the mailing lists?
<Kamion> I don't think so
<Kyral> and I think that Kass and AB are in the wrong on this one
<Kamion> but it has a similar chain of reasoning
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: and maybe they are.. I am talking about a bigger issue here
<Kyral> which is?
<Kamion> (since all Ubuntu development is on mailing lists or in IRC, or occasionally at conferences)
<Seveas> Kyral, we're not judging right and wrong now
<Kyral> sorry, but I seem to have to deal with this everyday and its getting VERY tiring
<ubuntugeek_> The issue is, the CC makes decisions that the forums should follow when they dont understand how the forums work 100%
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: yeah me too.. its getting real old
<Kyral> what pisses me off is talk of separation of the Forums from Ubuntu
<\sh> ubuntugeek: well...reading in the last couple of weeks the german forums...I have really problems with the mostly anonymous people there..some are trolling, some are really serious and annoyed about the trolls...and some are really dangerous with their advises...which tells me, that I will avoid writing and reading to forums...with exceptions every now and then
<Kamion> but it's *not* about how the forums work, in the vast majority of cases
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: well pisses me off too.. but ya know what
<Kyral> Don't say it
<\sh> ubuntugeek: I don't think it different from other forums 
<Kamion> unless there is a magic potion you give everyone when they join up for the forums that makes them a different kind of person
<Kamion> in which case, where's mine? :-)
<ubuntugeek_> Ok then .. someone tell me why i should continue to provide the forums to the ubuntu community?
<ubuntugeek_> and put up this the bullshit :)
<mjg59> ubuntugeek_: If you don't want to provide something, then don't. 
<mjg59> This is a community of volunteers. You can't be compelled to do something you don't want to do.
<Kamion> (ahem, Canonical helps, and AIUI has repeatedly offered to help more)
<\sh> Kamion: signed keys...trackable names...no anons anymore...if everyone will post with their names and personallity attached, people are changing...or the userbase will just decrease
<Kamion> ultimately though it ought to be about your users
<Kyral> ubuntugeek_: You wouldn't
<Kyral> you KNOW how crucial a support base the Forums are
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: Yeah I do.. it holds a large population base of this distro..
<Kyral> and you KNOW it will cripple Ubuntu
<ubuntugeek_> Kyral: Yes I do
<Seveas> Kyral, it won't take long until others step up
<Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
<\sh> Kyral: well...no...there will be another forum setup etc. 
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: So you saying I shoukld shut it down?
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, well, no
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Seems like it to me
<Kamion> 17:05 < Seveas> but I'd rather not see ubuntugeek_ leave
<Seveas> you're doing a great job and no one can prevent that rhere will be disputes from time to time
<Kyral> ubuntugeek_: if you don't want to run it give it over to Canonical
<\sh> Kyral: this is not a solution
<Seveas> but please keep in mind that the CC does not want to impose anything, only to resolve these disputes
<Kamion> Kyral: for the record Canonical has consistently made an effort not to be trying to take it over from Ryan; we feel that would be unhelpful and antagonistic
<Kyral> \sh: Worse case scenario
<ubuntugeek_> Kamion: That is correct
<Kyral> ie, UbuntuGeek doesn't want to do it anymore
<\sh> Kyral: again...social issues can't be solved technically
<Kyral> \sh: This is why I am not a Business Major :P
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, however good you are and whatever the effort, there'll always be people who disagree, such is life
<ubuntugeek_> Kamion: And I respect that
<Amaranth> 'social issues can't be solved technically' <--more people need to understand this :)
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: true that..
<\sh> Kyral: and closing down a forum or a person is leaving...is more a technical thing then social
<Kamion> Kyral: we've offered funding to help out, and some of that's been accepted
<Kyral> \sh: I know, suddenly my head is in "Worst Case Scenario" mode
<ubuntugeek_> For the record I would never just shut it down.. 
<Amaranth> Straight question in need of a straight answer: Does the CoC apply to the forums?
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, so please stay around and try to put up with the bullshit some users give you. And please try to keep up with the CC who don't know how a forum works
<Seveas> Amaranth, yes
<\sh> ubuntugeek: no one said this :) I just explained, that this is not a solution
<Seveas> (afaik)
<Kyral> bbiab
<Amaranth> Seveas: Was sort of asking ubuntugeek. :)
<Seveas> Amaranth, ah
<Kamion> we take quite a lot of flak in the development community too, for one thing or another; you put up with it by looking past it to see that you're generally making the world better
<ubuntugeek_> Amaranth: yes
<Amaranth> ubuntugeek: Are there any consequences for repeated violations by regular members?
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Ok but I would like to see some more paricipation from the CC so they can clearly understand the issues the forums have
<\sh> Amaranth: to the ubuntu members, i don't think a software can sign the CoC 
<Kamion> and also by trying not to rub people the wrong way intentionally
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, the CC are all very active developers and I'm afraid they don't have enough time to visit the forums regularly
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Which is a huge problem
<Kamion> ubuntugeek_: I've tried from time to time, but we are all incredibly busy in our own right (sabdfl obviously, elmo's the lead Canonical sysadmin, I'm the installer guy and do lots of other work, mako has another job)
<Seveas> that said, what are the most interesting parts of the forum from the view of the CC?
<Seveas> I could try to make some time to visit those
<Seveas> (note: I'm not a CC member, but active contributor to the meetings)
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Well the issues at hand are in community chat and the backyard.. those seem to flare up
<Amaranth> Are all the forum mods ubuntu members? Should they be?
<Kamion> however, with the help of the forums admin team when disagreements are brought to us, perhaps we could factor out the parts of the issue that are specific to the forums and consider the rest
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: sometimes having input from a cc member on the issues would be nice
<Kamion> ubuntugeek_: the issue at hand today was neither, AIUI?
<Seveas> Kamion, well, the forum was dragged in with it by users, but it basically was a dispute that could have happened anywhere
<ubuntugeek_> Amaranth: the three admins are not sure of the others
<Seveas> apart from the deletion of posts
<Seveas> (no judgement there)
<Kamion> right, I assumed it was in a development section from the content, although I didn't actually check
<Kamion> because it didn't seem relevant where it was
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: Right but sometimes a post does need to be edited
<Amaranth> I think all the mods should have to be members.
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: and not all people are going to like this
<Kamion> there's a bit of a difference between editing and deleting bug reports
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, I understand that, that's why i said (no judgement there)
<\sh> ubuntugeek_: why? I mean elmo or jdub don't edit the mails on ubuntu-users or ubuntu-devel ml...
<Kamion> bug reports are often pretty hostile, but it's really important not to get into a mindset where you consider them personal attacks
<Seveas> It's too easy to flame on a public medium and when the medium gets big it'll attract more badness
<Seveas> on a forum (contrary to mailinglist and usenet) you can DO something about that
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: I agree 100% and forums are very subject to flames.. which atrract more flames.. sometimes the editing needs to be done
<Seveas> same for IRC
<Seveas> I have been kicking more people in #ubuntu lately than half a year ago 
<Seveas> and lots of people start yelling in private chats
<Kamion> #931 on http://apqi.com/ubuntu/Automatix%20(Automated%20GUI%20installation%20script)%20-%20Page%2024%20-%20Ubuntu%20Forums.htm is really mild as bug reports go and yet the response was "Unless the tone of this post is changed, and lame accusations like ... removed, it will be ignored and removed from this thread again"
<Kamion> (I realise this particular one wasn't deleted though)
<ubuntugeek_> Seveas: And thats the same issue we have on the forums.. we dont like to ban people sometimes it needs to happen.. with 57,000+ users its going to happen
<\sh> Seveas: but you don't k-line the person or you can't edit his statement when it's said...
<Seveas> Kamion, you should see this bugreport in the context of everything surrounding automatix
<Kamion> Seveas: you should see some of my bug reports
<Seveas> the thing is controversial and attracts lots of heat
<Kamion> so is Debian :-)
<Seveas> Kamion, I read bugzilla :)
<Seveas> btw: has my bug closing hitrate improved already? :)
<Kamion> it's getting there ;)
<Seveas> cool
<ubuntugeek_> Ok I need to get back to work.. thanks for listening to my comments
<Kamion> I check them all though
<Seveas> ubuntugeek_, thanks for speaking up
<Kamion> yep, thanks, I do appreciate it
<Seveas> I'll still put you on the agenda for next week
<ubuntugeek_> thanks
<Kamion> disagreeing sometimes doesn't mean we aren't listening, btw :-)
<Seveas> :)
<ubuntugeek_> :)
<Amaranth> "well as it works from here on, u will need to send me the edited form and upon my approval, u can release it under a different name which does not have the word "automatix" in it. U also need to acknowledge that its based on automatix and abstain from using words like safer/better/worse etc.."
<Amaranth> that isn't the GPL....
<Seveas> nope
<Seveas> bueno, CC agenda edited
<Seveas> Kamion, one more thing: Seb Payne told me he'll not be applying for membership again, he's short of time
<Kamion> Seveas: ok, thanks
<Belutz> duh
<Belutz> i miss the meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-04
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 05 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board
<juliux> hi mvo
<mvo> hey juliux!
<effraie> dholbach: ping & hello
<effraie> troy_s tell me to contact you for my little problem
<dholbach> effraie: ok, fire away
<effraie> ;)
<dholbach> effraie: what is it about? packaging?
<effraie> no
<effraie> mailman admin
<dholbach> oh?
<effraie> i'm moderator for ubuntu-art list
<dholbach> let's move to a query
<tonyyarusso> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 05 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board
<Phoenix7477> is there a logfile of CC meetings somewhere?
<zul> yes check the topic
<Phoenix7477> ahh, thank you zul :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-05
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubug2] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<shawarma> @schedule copenhagen
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 05 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<stgraber> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Dec 20:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 05 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Phoenix7477> @schedule MST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for MST: 05 Dec 13:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 15:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 05:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Phoenix7477> @schedule Edmonton
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Edmonton: 05 Dec 13:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 15:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 05:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 05 Dec 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 17:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 05 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<pitti> hello all
<juliux> hi pitti
<zul> hi pitti
<ajmitch> hi pitti
<fernando> hi pitti
<kylem> ittip ih
<pitti> lla ot sevaw ittip *
<tsmithe> !kcab sevaw em
<fernando> noitacav deen uoy
<pitti> rorre ngis a tsuj
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<fernando> 
<pitti> )-: neercs ruoy fo ediskcab eht morf ti daer tsuj :odnanref
<tsmithe> !ysae
<pitti> oops, (-: of course
<tsmithe> !sdrawkcab ton
<pitti> "ecnetnes esrever ot eruliaF" drac ytlanep a pu skcip em/
<ompaul> r2l l2r hmm
<tsmithe> ?mmh
<tonyyarusso> ver ot ffuts ohce dna lanimret rehtona nepo rO
<tsmithe> ...he ver
<fernando> redro esrevni ni nettirw si cipot eht
<pitti> tonyyarusso: ohce ; esrever =  ep- lrep desu I ,ho
<tonyyarusso> pitti: oot skrow tahT
<tsmithe> niarb sih desu em/
<pitti> kubyeK ih
<Keybuk> ittip ih
<fernando> lla eyb
<tsmithe> ): eyb
<tsmithe> (: ree...
<shawarma> ...srednow em\
* pitti asks people to turn around their screen by 180 degrees again so that the meeting can start :)
* tsmithe doesn't
<tsmithe> mine was already the right way ;)
<Keybuk> just waiting for mdz
<mdz> I'm here
<mdz> I understood sabdfl was going to attend though
<Keybuk> :-o
<Keybuk> has anyone bread-rolled him?
<mjg59> He implied so in email earlier
<mdz> I received email on the subject within the past hour
<mdz> and have pinged him on IRC
<mdz> (the latter just now)
<shawarma> bread-rolled?
<mdz> I believe he wants to be here for the PPC discussion
<vil> good evening
<pitti> shawarma: a hardware ping
<Keybuk> shawarma: the traditional messaging system for summoning sabdfl to a meeting is to bounce a bread roll off his head
<shawarma> pitti: Oh, I see. :-)
<mdz> shawarma: (v.) to throw a bread roll at
<Keybuk> or to get someone in physical proximity to do the same
<mdz> he's responding
<shawarma> I friend of mine just got an USB missile launcher. Maybe such a thing could be rebuilt to launch bread rolls..
<tsmithe> linux compatible?
<Keybuk> shawarma: I think you have to share a URL at this point
<shawarma> tsmithe: In the works.
<tsmithe> cool!
<Keybuk> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/07/06/usb_missile_launcher/
<Keybuk> oh, wow
<shawarma> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/86b8/
<sabdfl> evening / afternoon folks
<Keybuk> morning
<sabdfl> sorry i'm a bit late
<pitti> 'Weapons of Much Distraction.', lol
<shawarma> They require an external power source, so I think they're can shoot quite far.
<mdz> so let's dive right in then
<mdz> everyone is here
<mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<Keybuk> mdz: are we going to be doing ubuntu-dev today, or have we delegated that to greyskull now?
<sabdfl> do we yet have an official skeletor?
<sabdfl> i think the delegation is something that should be done here
<shawarma> dholbach kind of implied that hadn't happened yet..
<mdz> note that I've begun to decline outright when folks attempt to join -core-dev who aren't members of -dev, unless there are special circumstances
<mdz> (e.g., prior discussion or someone with a Debian background)
* kylem ducks.
<mdz> I assume the rest of you are OK with that
<ajmitch> Keybuk: there's no motu council setup yet, so I doubt there'll be any delegation taking place until it's agreed on by TB/CC
<Keybuk> mdz: I'm fine with that
<mdz> sabdfl: I think that proposal is still under discussion and being revised
<mdz> so probably not ready to take any official decision on the part of TB
<mdz> I believe CC needs to approve the council first
<Keybuk> ok, just wanted that clarified
<sabdfl> personally, i'd be happy for the TB to cowboy it
<mdz> then TB can take decisions regarding composition and delegation
<sabdfl> CC already delegates this stuff to TB
<sabdfl> composition should follow TeamCouncil style rules
<sabdfl> TB should be appointing, or at least nominating
<sabdfl> careful of elections etc etc
<mdz> the current proposal is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuProcessesSpec
<mdz> (part of it anyway)
<mdz> it calls for a 5-member council
<mdz> I'm not sure that quite that many are needed, but the overall structure seems sane to me
<mdz> the composition of the council is not addressed by that proposal, as I believe there's an existing CC process for it
<mdz> but in this case as you say, similar things are delegated to the TB by CC
<sabdfl> they call for the TB to ACK new devs
<mdz> personally, I don't have enough information to come up with an appropriate list of nominations today
<sabdfl> seems to me that it would be better to appoint Grayskulls who we trust
<sabdfl> TB won't be as familiar with the candidates
<sabdfl> and TB holds the reigns on -core-dev
<mdz> sabdfl: you explicitly asked for TB acks
<sabdfl> i suggested it from a single member, not "the board"
<sabdfl> if there is a TB member on MC then that's sorted
<mdz> Keybuk: you've read it, yes?
<mdz> mjg59: have you?
<Keybuk> mdz: re-reading it at the moment
<Keybuk> I've read it at least thrice
<mjg59> I've read it
<mjg59> But have little to add right now
<mdz> sabdfl: having a TB member on MC is not the same as an ack by a TB member; presumably the council would decide by vote or consensus
<Keybuk> I understood the "need TB ack" was just that the TB would retain ownership of the MOTU team, and a TB member had to do the actual LP lifting
<ajmitch> are you going to appoint people to the motu council, or take nominations from MOTUs?
<sabdfl> either way, i think we should keep it lightweight
<sabdfl> encourage them to review member applications by email
<mdz> I understood it as: council provides a report and recommendation to TB, TB member signs off on it and grants privileges
<sabdfl> so that they don't block on IRC meetings
<sabdfl> i'm happy with that too if it cuts down on meetings :-)
<mdz> the proposal calls for a two-week deliberation period for applications to the council
<sabdfl> a formal report is nice - for the record
<sabdfl> it gives the council two weeks to respond
<mdz> I, too, prefer that both the applications and the TB signoff happen via email
<mdz> and reserve interactive interviews for -core-dev
<mdz> I would like to formally incorporate UbuntuDevelopers as guidelines for the council's decision process
<sabdfl> sounds good
<mdz> and have that document maintained by the TB
<mjg59> I think that sounds reasoanble
<mdz> ok, I can communicate that feedback to dholbach and ask him to revise
<mdz> what about nominations for the council?
<sabdfl> dholbach and pitti have been mooted
<pitti> yes, dholbach wanted to have two core-devs at least initially
<sabdfl> would be nice to have more non-canonical presence
<sabdfl> would potentially be a stepping stone for greater non-canonical TB presence
<mdz> I don't think that any of us are involved enough in ongoing MOTU operations to generate that list off the cuff
<mdz> and I think we should certainly talk to any nominees formally before appointing them
<mdz> so perhaps we should solicit nominations from MOTU itself and invite them to attend a TB meeting?
<sabdfl> pitti: could you and dholbach work up some nominations?
<pitti> we should ask some MOTUs
<pitti> sabdfl: I don't track MOTUs that closely, though; dholbach asked me to join to review reports, packages, and guide people
<pitti> but I'm happy to work with Daniel, sure
<sabdfl> ok, let's ask the MOTU's for nominations
<sabdfl> is it reasonable to hope to get this approved and the council in place at the next TB meeting?
<mdz> seems reasonable to me
* ajmitch would think it'd take only a few days if it's not done by drawn-out voting
<sabdfl> we want to avoid voting if possible
<sabdfl> caucusing, yes, voting, not if we can help it
<mdz> agreed
<sabdfl> ok, what's up next?
<mdz> pitti: since you'll talk to dholbach anyway, can you communicate the revisions we agreed on above as well?
<mdz> sabdfl: PowerPC
<pitti> mdz: no problem
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> PowerPC background is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCReview
<shawarma> ..so ubuntu-dev applications are deferred until the council is formed?
<mdz> shawarma: good question
<mdz> mjg59,sabdfl,Keybuk: ?
<sabdfl> how many folks came specially for that?
<mdz> there is surely a backlog of ubuntu-dev applications
<Keybuk> mdz: I'm happy for us to review them until the council is formed
<mdz> though it would be a good way to exercise the process
<shawarma> I did.
<Keybuk> there's a fair backlog now, and I think its unfair to make them wait longer
<vil> me too
<sabdfl> agreed
<shawarma> I personally wouldn't mind too much. I've only just applied 5 hours ago. :-)
<sabdfl> perhaps we can do a fast cut through the list
<mjg59> Well, can we find out how many people are actually here?
<mdz> vil applied 2006-11-17
* shawarma raises his hand.
<sabdfl> folks with (a) really good wiki pages, and (b) lots of LP evidence of contribution get a quick +1?
<mjg59> If there's 20 candidates, it's not going to be practical to get through them all
<mdz> (c) sponsor
<sabdfl> that too
<geser> is it to late to add myself to the list?
<mdz> it looks like we have two in attendance
<mdz> geser: not if you have everything prepared (a, b, c above)
<mdz> vil: are you prepared?
<geser> crimsun: would you vouch for me?
<vil> sabdfl: how much is lots (for LP)?
<vil> mdz: sort of
<mdz> given that sponsored uploads, perhaps the most significant evidence of contribution, aren't tracked in LP...
<crimsun> I'll gladly sponsor geser, having worked with him on numerous syncs and merges
<crimsun> he has been working in -motu to teach prospective MOTU to merge, too
<Keybuk> I've seen a fair amount of geser's work
<sabdfl> let's start with the folks who were on the list
<sabdfl> vil, URL for your wiki page?
<sabdfl> sponsor details?
<sabdfl> launchpad home page URL?
<Keybuk> Dec 05 15:35:38 <doko_> mdz, Keybuk, mpt: Vladmir Lapacek (vil) will be at the T
<Keybuk> B meeting tonight, applying as a developer. I cannot attend the meeting tonight,
<Keybuk>  some comments: he is active in java packaging (new packages, and updating packa
<Keybuk> ges) and eclipse packaging (eclipse and eclipse-pydev) over the past nine or ten
<Keybuk>  months. I'd appreciate if he becomes developer.
<vil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VladimirLapacek
<mdz> oh yes, I saw that briefly but didn't make the association
<vil> https://launchpad.net/people/vil
<mdz> can we agree that such testimonials should be sent via email to technical-board@, and not on random IRC channels?
<vil> yes, I worked mainly with doko
<mjg59> That seems like a good plan
<sabdfl> doko's is a good reference
<mdz> mailed doko accordingly
<mjg59> mdz: Though presumably to the council in the brave new world?
<mdz> mjg59: yep
<mdz> for -dev
<sabdfl> vil: do you think eclipse will be a reasonable proposition for main soon?
<mdz> vil: how long have you been working with him?
<vil> sabdfl: currently eclipse is not so stable to put it there
<vil> sabdfl: but you know, doko makes his best
<vil> mdz: doko contacted me after an upload to REVU some 9 - 10 months ago
<vil> mdz: don't remember exactly
<mdz> vil: is that when you first started to learn packaging?
<vil> mdz: started some 3 months earlier because the first package (eclipse-pydev) took a lot of effort
<mdz> vil: do you also work with the MOTU team, or only with doko?
<vil> mdz: it was not the easiest one to do... lot of patching eclipse / java build
<vil> mdz: i would say rather with doko
<mdz> vil: are you aware of anyone in MOTU working on java-related packaging?
<mdz> ack, I have an appointment in 15 minutes
<vil> mdz: not really, though i work with a few people from debian-java
<vil> mdz: this should be pretty close
<vil> mdz: among them are tashiro, man-di
<mdz> vil: apart from making your own uploads to universe, what would be different about your involvement if you were a member of ubuntu-dev?
<vil> mdz: again people around eclipse
<vil> mdz: no sure if this is the right answer, but the uploads would be the biggest change
<mdz> vil: do you think there is the potential to get more people involved in Java within the MOTU team?
<LaserJock> I think a MOTU Java team would be appreciated
<mdz> with Java becoming more open, it would be good for Ubuntu to be a place where interested developers could contribute
<vil> mdz: now with open-sourced sun java, i would guess that more people will be interrested in it
<vil> mdz: so yes!
<mdz> vil: are there other parts of Ubuntu where Java support could be improved, beyond continuing maintenance of Eclipse?
<vil> also sun java packages need a lot of care
<mdz> what do they need specifically?
<vil> mdz: jvm and compiler are already open-sourced and several people are trying to put it together with GNU classpath
<vil> mdz: still waiting for OS sun run-time libraries
<vil> GNU classpath has a devel branch, that is not yet here in Ubuntu
<vil> tons of libraries from sf.net
<BenC> Sorry to interrupt, but if the TB has time to get kylem for upload privs quickly, I'd appreciate it...he has an appoint to leave for soon
<mdz> I have an appointment in 7 minutes myself
<mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: questions for vil?
<Keybuk> none from me
<mjg59> Nope
<sabdfl> +1 from me, based on doko's reference and an obvious interest in seeing the java packages well done
<Keybuk> +1 from me on doko's recommendation, and general in-aweness of anyone who understands java
<mdz> +1, likewise
<mjg59> +1 (not that it matters at this point)
<mdz> vil: congratulations
<sabdfl> mjg59: vote sooner :-)
<vil> looks good, thank you all
<ogra> congrats vil
<sabdfl> congrats and welcome aboard
<tsmithe> well done!
<sabdfl> now, who is this kylem character?
<pitti> vil: welcome
<Keybuk> +1 on kylem, +1 on keescook :p
* Keybuk speed votes
<BenC> sabdfl: Some weirdo we picked up at allhands
<keescook> heh
<kylem> heh.
<BenC> he claims to work for you :)
<BenC> I'll vouch for his burp ability, and toss in a technical recommendation
<Keybuk> (it's worth noting that I -1'd kees at the last TB meeting for ubuntu-dev, he's more than proved himself 1,000 times over)
<ogra> isnt that the guy who writes MOO on everything ?
<mdz> wasn't it one of the Enron fellows who said "a lot of people work for me"
* keescook hugs Keybuk
<Keybuk> plus he has great t-shirt taste
<pitti> Keybuk++
<ogra> heh
<sabdfl> ok, how can we add some rigour to this process?
<BenC> lol
<sabdfl> Keybuk is clearly being influenced by fashion
<mdz> kylem: the usual procedure is that you tell the board a bit about yourself, your work in Ubuntu, and the person who has been sponsoring your uploads speaks on your behalf
<mdz> kylem: surely BenC briefed you :-P
<mdz> kylem: Debian experience is also relevant
<BenC> No, I led him here blind actually :)
<mdz> that wastes time during meetings, candidates should come prepared
<kylem> ok, so i'm kyle, i work for canonical on the ubuntu kernel. recently i've been taking care of dapper security and proposed, and edgy security and proposed. i also am on the debian kernel team maintaining hppa, am the upstream guy for parisc-linux, and wrote a couple drivers.
<mdz> I have to leave now
<mdz> might be back if this call is quick
<Keybuk> kylem: how can we improve the process of updating drivers in stable ubuntu releases?
<kylem> Keybuk, we can't. it's a really hard problem.
<kylem> i assume you mean backporting from recent linus kernels, to old linus kernels.
<kylem> there's very little that can be done to make it less painful. things frequently get renamed in the api, functions deprecated and moved around, calling conventions changed.
<Keybuk> is there no useful solution to it?
<pitti> the mysterious thing 'standard driver interface' that many people cry out for?
<kylem> not really, it's a hard problem. what i've done since i've done this for sky2 and tg3 so far, is written a header to make a bit of it less painful that wraps things.
<BenC> I think Keybuk's means more in regards to how we provide them to users, rather than how much work it is for us to backport it
<mjg59> /usr/src/linux/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt
<mjg59> Sadly
<siretart> what problems do occur when compiling kernel packages from feisty in edgy or dapper? this seems to be what ppl are actually doing
<kylem> siretart, old compilers is a possible problem, the need to backport build deps like udev
* pitti sees things break when using 2.6.17 on feisty due to udev incompatibilities; that might also affect the other direction
<sabdfl> oh, alright, the t-shirt gets me. +1
<kylem> what t-shirt is this? :)
<Keybuk> mjg59: any questions for kylem?
<kylem> Keybuk, in terms of providing drivers to users? i'm not quite sure what you mean, i suppose we could split out drivers and divert the modules if we didn't want to provide whole new kernels for one updated driver.
<mjg59> We have the infrastructure to do so for the installer, so it wouldn't be implausible
<kylem> mjg59, yeah, kind of hard if the driver you're trying to update to support hw is the network though.
<Keybuk> are we ready to vote for kylem?
<BenC> you guys don't want to hear from me?!
<Keybuk> BenC: sure :)
<kylem> BenC, don't mention the ftbfs.
<BenC> I had a whole speech prepared
<kylem> ;-)
<BenC> lol
<BenC> well, over the past two weeks, kylem has done work with dapper/edgy, in regards to security and proposed updates
<mjg59> I've done enough work with Kyle already to +1 him from personal experience
<BenC> eh, probably pointless for me to talk anyway :)
<BenC> but all-in-all, I think he's a good candidate, has done a fine job reviewing patches and assuring things compile
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> that's +1s from everyone spread out there
<Keybuk> kylem: congrats
<kylem> neat.
<Keybuk> keescook: you're next; please introduce yourself, and let us know what you'll be doing in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> ok, well done kylem
<keescook> Hi!  I'm Kees Cook.  I've been doing security updates to main packages in all the stable releases, as well as having multiple uploads sponsored into the development releases.  Other core-devs that have done the sponsoring include crimsun, pitti, and seb128.  I'd love to be able to upload to feisty/main directly, as it makes the merges go much faster.  :)
<pitti> kylem: welcome!
<kylem> pitti, thanks :)
<keescook> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/keescook Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeesCook
<sabdfl> BenC, for future ref it would be good to have canonical folks prepped with wiki pages etc
<sabdfl> thanks keescook :-)
<keescook> my pleasure!  :)
<sabdfl> MythTV ROCKS ;-)
* pitti waves the fanboy flags for Kees
<ajmitch> keescook: you forgot me! ;)
<BenC> sabdfl: Will do. I wasn't even aware of the TB meeting till today, so I was unprepared myself
<keescook> ajmitch: sorry!  My listed sucked.  :)  ajmitch too.  :)
<pitti> Kees has done an awesome job on security and other distro-related work so far, has learned stuff at an incredible pace
<pitti> and he is very cautious when it comes to new things
<ajmitch> keescook: and I _was_ here all ready to cheer for you :)
<pitti> and asks really good questiosn
* keescook hugs ajmitch 
<Keybuk> keescook: for the sake of disclosure, you're an employee of Canonical, but not a member of the distro team?
<keescook> Keybuk: correct, I'm part of the IS dept, but still doing some amount of merge work (for security updates) and for packages in main I have a familiarity with (inkscape)
<shawarma> IS?
<keescook> shawarma: information systems, or IT, infrastructure, etc.
<pitti> shawarma: Information systems, the guys that care for hw infrastructure
<shawarma> Oh.
<Keybuk> keescook: is this so elmo gets a sneak preview of incoming kernel holes? :p
<keescook> heh.  only if the embargo is over (sorry elmo)
* pitti would like to see keescook more involved with distro development, too
<sabdfl> keescook: what sort of automated security checking do you think we could do in ubuntu?
<sabdfl> what's the roadmap for hardening the distro, do you think?
<sabdfl> and what do you think about turning avahi on by default?
<keescook> sabdfl: I think a certain level of automatic code auditing is possible, but only catches the really obvious stuff
<pitti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/memory-protection, btw (didn't get discussion in Mountain View, but kees and I discussed it a bit)
<keescook> as far as distro hardening, I think we're on the right track.
<keescook> that spec hasn't been drafted as it was never officially scheduled, but I have some extensive notes
<sabdfl> pitti: needs a drafting session, though :-)
<keescook> we talked to doko about the toolchain changes needed, though
<keescook> Our stack protection is already proving very nice; I've had at least one vuln I tested that just refused to work in edgy.
<sabdfl> that's a win
<keescook> Anything to make the window of opportunity smaller, and the executable relocation stuff (PIE) is going to be another big win.
<sabdfl> what about network service exposure, what's your opinion about having the distro listen on some ports by default, as opposed to nothing-by-default?
<keescook> I'm pretty conservative about ports.  I think the newly spec'd port policy is solid.
<keescook> pitti and I have also been working on some automated tests for updated packages
<keescook> testing the updates tends to take the longest amount of time, so any amount of automated testing helps
<keescook> most packages don't have any kind of test suite, so we've been working with iwj and lifeless to put together some of our own test suites.
<pitti> these should help with catching regressions of old security fixes (but of course not for new vulns)
<keescook> lately "fuzzers" have proved a useful tool for doing some blockbox testing.  (See the "month of kernel bugs", for example)
<sabdfl> where is the newly spec'd port policy?
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DefaultNetworkServices
<keescook> also, the addition of apport has allowed for much more detailed crash reports
<keescook> the recent koffice update I did was a result of an audit near a reported crash, which had security implications.
<sabdfl> interesting
<sabdfl> that's a good success story, pitti
<pitti> apport FTW \o/ :)
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on the back of existing work done in security, and commitment to ongoing contribution
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<Keybuk> mjg59: ?
<pitti> (just for the record, Kees can already upload to main for stable-security)
<sabdfl> fwiw i found kees to be a great contributor to discussions i've participated in with him
<mjg59> +1 also
<mjg59> Great deal of personal recommendations
* pitti hugs keescook and congratulates him for his shiny new core-dev badge
<keescook> yay!  thanks guys.  :)
<ajmitch> congrats, keescook
<sabdfl> well done keescook
<sabdfl> and welcome aboard
<ogra> congrats keescook
* keescook hugs everyone
<sabdfl> mjg59: did you get much of a look into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DefaultNetworkServices before it was approved?
<Keybuk> ok, that's the core-dev candidates
<mjg59> sabdfl: Nope
<sabdfl> mjg59: i think it's something that should be discussed in this forum
* pitti agrees
<pitti> at UDS I made sure to get it past many people
<pitti> but the more review, the better
<sabdfl> i think it's very well written
<sabdfl> thank you for that pitti
<sabdfl> i know mdz is a big supporter, hopefully he will get back shortly to comment
<sabdfl> i'm a little sceptical of two things
<sabdfl> first, how it is supposed to be possible to detect network services without actually talking to them
<pitti> sabdfl: they talk to you
<ogra> thats what avahi is for
<pitti> i. e. avahi broadcasting info about new IPs and such
<sabdfl> pitti: inevitably, that means listening, and beng vulnerable to an attack
<pitti> but of course there is a certain amount of communication
<sabdfl> and second, how we can realistically promise always to separate local, configured services from detected ones
<pitti> sabdfl: right, that was our major concern
<sabdfl> that seems to be a commitment to diverge from upstream if they don't provide that separation
<pitti> sabdfl: either a permanent diversion, or we refuse to enable it by default
<pitti> we specifically reserved the right to say 'no, we don't feel good about that thing'
<pitti> sabdfl: one example are remote printers
<mdz> (I'm still on the telephone)
<pitti> the current print dialog doesn't give you a clear separation
<pitti> until that's settled, I won't enable browsing by default
<pitti> sabdfl: btw, for your first case, getting a DHCP address is no different from zeroconf network layout communication
<Keybuk> (or, indeed, getting a reply to a DNS query)
<keescook> (almost more dangerous, actually)
<sabdfl> true
<sabdfl> true, true, true!
<pitti> the other thing is, people do enable that shi^Wstuff
<pitti> so we should rather concentrate on making it reasonably safe in that mode
<sabdfl> i just have this thing about slippery slopes :-)
<pitti> sabdfl: and rightly so!
<pitti> I must say I have always been proud of our (alleged) no open ports policy
<pitti> well, 'almost, but not quite' (dhcp, dns)
<ogra> ++
<sabdfl> me too
<pitti> but communication on the IP level about IP addresses and host names is inherently untrusted
<sabdfl> mjg59: thoughts?
<pitti> and we never expose information on the app level (like automatic sharing of music, etc.)
<pitti> ... by default, of course
<mjg59> I have some qualms about the ease of implementation, and I'd like to have more of an idea about what the UI for this stuff is going to look like
<mjg59> But overall, the spec seems sound
<sabdfl> is the "listening" code very, very well audited?
<pitti> the threat right now is: people broadcast a malicious mp3 which is automatically picked up and peole play it back without checking, and it triggers an exploit of the mp3 codec
<sabdfl> is it written in a language like Python, where there's less likelihood of some sort of overflow?
<sabdfl> that's no worse than linking to it on the web
<pitti> sabdfl: right, or sending by mail (and it's only the local network)
<pitti> sabdfl: avahi in this case is C
<pitti> but it confines its privileges in a good way
<pitti> non-root, chrooted, etc.
<sabdfl> ok
<pitti> i. e. maximum impact is injection of false network information
<pitti> but people can do that anyway by just sending you bogus stuff from their machines
<sabdfl> bring on the day
<pitti> i. e. we have to treat this information as untrustable anyway
<sabdfl> the spec does not say which network services will be available by default
<sabdfl> it talks about listening by default
<sabdfl> and exposing mac, ip, hostname etc
<sabdfl> and "availability of network-facing services"
<Keybuk> that was deliberate, other specs cover that
<Keybuk> e.g. the libnss one (zero configuration networking?)
<pitti> right
<sabdfl> i would like the TB to have to ack new open ports explicitly
<sabdfl> dunno how others feel
<pitti> it was meant to be a policy document, no tech changes
<pitti> sabdfl: I randomly picked ubuntu security team for now, happy to change to TB
<pitti> sabdfl: or both even
<sabdfl> what's the plan for feisty, w.r.t. ports listening by default?
<pitti> sabdfl: we already have libnss-mdns for resolving .local host names
<pitti> sabdfl: and avahi on by default for automatic service discovery
<sabdfl> that listens on an IP port? not just localhost?
<pitti> sabdfl: cups browsing depends on whether I or anyone else manages to get the printer dialog right
<pitti> sabdfl: right, avahi opens an UDP port, much like DNS or dhcp
<pitti> no TCP ports so far, and none planned
<sabdfl> but dns and dhcp are listen-for-responses-to-sent-messages only
<pitti> I don't have any plans for any other default services for now
<sabdfl> as opposed to listen-to-broadcast-traffic
<sabdfl> ah well
<Keybuk> sabdfl: for UDP, the distinction is artificial
<Keybuk> as to get responses, you have to listen to any traffic you receive, and filter it to decide what's actually a response
<Keybuk> (as apposed to TCP where the filtering is down at the network layer)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> will the server edition have this stuff on or off by default?
<pitti> sabdfl: avahi and nss-mdns make little sense for servers IMHO
<pitti> thus I'd vote for not install them by default
<Keybuk> server edition hasn't even got this stuff installed :p
<pitti> this stuff is mainly for desktop bling
<pitti> automatic pr0n sharing is less interesting on servers
<pitti> and usually people want to be in full control of their IPs and such
<sabdfl> ok, can that be made explicit in the policy? server edition is nyet nyet nyet?
<pitti> sabdfl: choroscho!
<sabdfl> atlichna
<pitti> 
<sabdfl> you win
<pitti> sabdfl: I'll change 'security team' to 'TB && security team' for signoff then, too?
<sabdfl> sure
<sabdfl> any further commentary? mdz, want to ack you are happy with this?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: what's next?
<Keybuk> PPC
<shawarma> There's stilla a few ubuntu-devs left..
<shawarma> Myself and geser, at least.
<mdz> ok, back
<ogra> shawarma, you are still no motu ? about time, eh ? :)
<mdz> sabdfl: I reviewed the spec at UDS and was satisfied with it, yes
<shawarma> ogra: That's what I thought. :-)
<Keybuk> shawarma: I don't see you in the list
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, I was surprised to hear he wasn't :)
<Keybuk> geser also isn't in my list (I load it at the start of the meeting)
<mdz> how did we get onto a discussion about network services anyway?
<mdz> there are two discussion items remaining on the wiki agenda
<pitti> mdz: over the approval of keescook and the discussion for it
<sabdfl> mdz: keescook applied
<sabdfl> asked his opinion
<mdz> I saw keescook and kylem were approved, both have my ack as well
<shawarma> Keybuk: I applied this afternoon. 6-7 hours ago now.
<sabdfl> turns out the TB hadn't been consulted on this significant change in policy ;-)
<ajmitch> shawarma: it shows up as you applying about a year ago :)
<mdz> 1. PowerPCReview
<mdz> 2. patents
<Keybuk> sabdfl: the TB approved it (me and mdz, at least)
<sabdfl> cowabunga
<geser> Keybuk: I applied at the beginning as I assumed -dev need to wait for the MC
<shawarma> Oh, yes, I did by accident. I just reapplied today. I didn't notice the date was screwed.
<shawarma> Keybuk: My name is Soren Hansen. I should be there.
<sabdfl> geser, shawarma, are you ready with wiki pages and LP-fu?
<shawarma> Yes.
<geser> yes
<shawarma> https://launchpad.net/people/shawarma
<shawarma> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SorenHansen
<sabdfl> ok, shawarma, you're up
<shawarma> This turned out a bit longer than anticipated:
<shawarma> The personal stuff: I'm 25, male, soon to be married, mathematics/computer science student/FLOSS consultant living in Denmark. I work well both alone and in teams. People tend to laugh when they're around me, and I tell myself that they're laughing with me rather than at me, but who's to tell? I've worked as a pr
<shawarma> Since I was 4, I've been pulling things apart to figure out how or why they work. I'm also the kind of person that actually reads a manual, rfc or other type of specification from cover to cover to fully understand how things are *supposed* to be working. My work on Debian and Ubuntu is no different. If I stumble upon a bug I can get really stubborn in trying to figure out what's causing it and trying to fix it. Also, I've of course read the Debian
<shawarma> ogrammer and systems administrator in a Linux environment for 6 years.
<shawarma> Stuff, I'd like to work on in Ubuntu: I've as of yet not settled on a particular niche that I want to fill in.  I currently study mathematics at a university so math related stuff like TeXlive and Axiom gets more attention than certain other bits. I'll be going back to studying computer science next summer and at that point I'll probably be more focused on stuff like exotic programming languages. Meanwhile, I work as sysadmin (on a consultancy basi
<shawarma> LaserJock did most of my sponsoring.
<sabdfl> lot of lines cutoff there
<ogra> we all met shawarma in paris
<sabdfl> is the text on a URL somewhere?
<sabdfl> looks like lots of LP interaction
<sabdfl> I think LaserJock wrote in support of your application, to the TB
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I wasn't sure if I'd make it
<shawarma> I'm trying. Pastebin is REALLY slow right now.
<Keybuk> shawarma: I notice that there's a fair gap in your work (basically November)
<Keybuk> and again for most of August and September
<Seveas> shawarma, paste.ubuntu-nl.org is fast ;)
<Keybuk> is this a side-effect of studenthood?  (I don't know the danish academic calendar)
<shawarma> Keybuk: That's right. I've been tied up in other things. Also, it was very tedious to get anything uploaded during november.
<shawarma> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/35477/
<shawarma> Thanks, Seveas. :-)
<shawarma> Keybuk: Among other things, yes.
<shawarma> Keybuk: I don't have a whole lot of time available, but the little I do have, I'd like to be able to spend efficiently on Ubuntu.
<LaserJock> shawarma did a lot of good work during Dapper especially
<shawarma> Keybuk: Having upload privs is a bit catalyst for that.
<ogra> shawarma, could you imagine helping out with edubuntu app selection for higher math grades ?
<shawarma> ogra: Honestly, no. :-)
<LaserJock> ogra: don't worry I'll rope him into it ;-)
<shawarma> ogra: sorry. :-)
<ogra> hehe
<sabdfl> what's an MMSC?
<shawarma> sabdfl: It's the software that enables mobile phones to send porn to other phones.
<sabdfl> suuupa
<shawarma> sabdfl: Well, and other pictures, but it's probably mostly porn.
<shawarma> Everyknow knows that.
<shawarma> Everyone, even.
<sabdfl> what else would a camera phone be for?
<shawarma> exactly.
<shawarma> :-)
<ogra> hah
<sabdfl> shawarma: can you tell me what would be the thing you'd most like to change about the proceses for new developers in ubuntu?
<mdz> shawarma: who has been sponsoring your uploads?  LaserJock?
<shawarma> sabdfl: Well, the mentoring process is a really good idea. Other than that, I think Ubuntu is a really good place for new people. Lots of encouragement all around.
<shawarma> mdz: Mostly, yes.
<shawarma> sabdfl: Also the MOTU school is a really good idea. I can't really think of anything concrete, I'd like to change.
<mdz> LaserJock: anything other than merges?
<LaserJock> I did a review of rawstudio I believe
<LaserJock> on REVU
<shawarma> Right. libmms was mine, as well. I think it got included back in breezy.
<LaserJock> most recent stuff was merge and syncs
<mdz> shawarma: is rawstudio something you packaged from scratch?
<shawarma> mdz: Yes.
<mdz> shawarma: was there anything unusual or challenging about packaging that particular app?
<shawarma> mdz: I've done a lot of that, actually, for a company I used to work for. Internal, proprietary stuff, but still.
<shawarma> mdz: Not at all.
<shawarma> mdz: I know upstream, so I told them how to make my job easy.
<shawarma> :-)
<shawarma> It uses cdbs, so the debian/rules is only like two lines or so. :-)
<shawarma> I am pretty familiar with the build system though. Also when it comes to exotic packages. Axiom, for instance, was a nightmare.
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of a long track record of contribution, lots of bug interaction, and good packaging experience with refs
<mdz> +1
<mjg59> If we're voting, +1 from me (for the same reasons)
<Keybuk> +1
* ogra cheers ... (... for a legendary taxi ride in paris :) )
<mdz> shawarma: congratulations and good luck
<shawarma> ogra: Yes, that was a good one.
<shawarma> :-)
<ogra> congrats shawarma
<ogra> :)
<ajmitch> shawarma: congrats & welcome :)
<shawarma> sabdfl, mdz, mjg59, Keybuk: Thanks, guys!
<Keybuk> shawarma: heh, you could have explained your absence with "I was in the taxi with Colin"
<LaserJock> shawarma: congrats
<ogra> *giggle*
<LaserJock> heh
<shawarma> Keybuk: *G*
<elmo> we need t-shirts that say that
<ogra> LOL
<Keybuk> elmo: "soiled" t-shirts?
<ogra> *shudder*
<LaserJock> yikes, maybe that part of the story could be faked
<Keybuk> geser: you're up; introduce yourself, etc.
<geser> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichaelBienia
<geser> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/geser
<geser> My name is Michael Bienia. I'm 27 years old and live in Dortmund, Germany.
<geser> I'm using Ubuntu since the development cycle of breezy but only started in august 2006 to also contribute to Ubuntu.
<geser> Since than I was fixing packages with unmet deps and doing sync and merges for packages in universe. crimsun sponsored my uploads and also reviewed my sync requests.
<Keybuk> universe is falling way behind on merges at the moment -- in fact, it's making hardly any headway
<geser> I'm also helping in #ubuntu-motu as far as I can
<Keybuk> what do you see as the problem there?
<shawarma> Keybuk: I'm on it now. :-)
<geser> I also try to get through the merges list for universe
<pitti> one problem is certainly the feedback of changes to Debian, to make packages syncable
<sabdfl> geser: that's an impressive package maintainance list. thank you for a big contribution already!
<LaserJock> yes, the geser-crimsun team account for probably a majority of MOTU work right now
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> a good percentage of the sync requests I process come from geser
<mdz> Keybuk: all well-formed?
<shawarma> <crimsun> I'll gladly sponsor geser, having worked with him on numerous syncs and merges
<shawarma> <crimsun> he has been working in -motu to teach prospective MOTU to merge, too
<Keybuk> mdz: yes
<geser> mdz: a list of my filed sync requests https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/geser/+reportedbugs?field.searchtext=%5BSync+Request%5D&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=Unconfirmed&field.status%3Alist=Needs+Info&field.status%3Alist=Confirmed&field.status%3Alist=In+Progress&field.status%3Alist=Fix+Committed&field.status%3Alist=Fix+Released&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.status_upstream=&field.status_upstream-empty-m
<geser> arker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.tag=
<mdz> geser: which tools and resources do you use to find unmet dependencies?
<mdz> The launchpad-url hits!  The launchpad-url hits!  You feel weak.
<geser> mostly the output of apt-cache unmet -i
<geser> mdz: http://tinyurl.com/yanzaq
<mdz> 500 - Internal Server Error
<sabdfl> appropriately ;-)
<mdz> you killed tinyurl
<sabdfl> killed by a LP-URL, on level 1
<mdz> ...but wait!  Your medallion begins to glow!
<sabdfl> geser: from a community perspective, what can we do to improve debian acceptance of ubuntu changes?
<mdz> the launchpad URL works even though it's truncated
<ogra> crimsun, some extra words about geser ?
<sabdfl> geser, did you see my Q re debian / ubuntu maintainer interactions?
<geser> sabdfl: yes, I've seen it
<sabdfl> anybody else hungry?
<mdz> starving
<pitti> falling asleep
* ogra raises his hand
<Lure> ogra: [21:41]  <crimsun> I have another meeting to run off to, but when geser's -dev application surfaces again in a few minutes, please paste my sponsorship to the TB again
<sabdfl> geser, do you want to duck the Q, or are you framing a response?
<ogra> Lure, yes, i meant additional words since he seems back again ;)
<geser> I've currently no idea how to improve it
<sabdfl> ok
<crimsun> geser: beyond even making a more concerted effort to push patches to BTS as appropriate?
<sabdfl> well, +1 from me on the back of a LOT of sync and merge work
<Keybuk> +1 from me
<LaserJock> crimsun: yeah, I think BTS is the key
<sabdfl> crimsun: i believe we automatically mail all changes now
<mdz> +1 based on development contributions and crimsun's testimonial
<elmo> sabdfl: to the PTS, not the BTS
<LaserJock> sabdfl: opening bugs seems to work much better then putting it on the PTS
<ogra> geser, hey, congrats !
<geser> sabdfl, Keybuk, mdz: thanks
<sabdfl> that's quorum - mjg59?
<pitti> filing Debian bugs with patches generally works well for me at least, and I could request syncs for many packages due to that
<mjg59> +1
<sabdfl> ok welcome aboard geser
<sabdfl> PPC!
<pitti> geser: welcome
<geser> thanks to all
<Keybuk> can I suggest we table PPC for another time
<sabdfl> floors open, its a very well commented spec
<Keybuk> this meeting is already two and a half hours long
<mdz> I made my position clear at UDS and prior (proposed the spec in the first place)
<sabdfl> Keybuk: can we give it 10? i suspect it may be fast.
<mdz> sabdfl: any notable news?
<sabdfl> none that would change the community decision here, though we should frame the result carefully so as not to burn any bridges
<sabdfl> big, blue bridges
* ogra is voting against it, simply because the majority of US classrooms is equipped with iMacs
<sabdfl> timing isn't great, there is work afoot, etc etc but we have to make our call
<mdz> ogra: having spent a lot of time in US classrooms, that doesn't match my observations
<ogra> would be a big loss for edubuntu
<mjg59> My understanding is that PS3 will work with a pretty standard PPC userland
<mjg59> So the /potential/ installed base is going to get much bigger very soon
<ogra> well from there i get the majority of Mac requests and questions, and according to our educators based there its true nowadays
<elmo> mjg59: it only has 256Mb of memory
<LaserJock> my lab has gone all iMac, half of them g5s half intel
<Keybuk> mjg59: fsvo standard, but yes
<mdz> ogra: unless those schools are attempting to purchase support contracts, they're not facing a big loss in the reclassification of PowerPC as community-supported
<mjg59> elmo: It's certainly not an ideal machine, but yes
<mc44> mjg59: assuming they actually find some blue diodes...
<sabdfl> PS3 is really interesting
<sabdfl> i might, or might not, have my feet on a PS3 development box right now :-)
<mdz> why any more interesting than, say, Xbox?
<ogra> mdz, well, the community wont build official CDs
<elmo> mdz: sony are actively supporting running Linux on it
<mjg59> mdz: xbox was never plausible
<elmo> without the need for e.g. hardware mods or hacks
<mjg59> It requires hardware modifications to boot unsigned code
<Keybuk> ibm are actively filing bugs in LP about problems with Ubuntu on the PS3
<Keybuk> which is nice
<mjg59> Ditto ps2
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<mdz> ogra: how does the word 'official' change the reality of that situation at all?
<elmo> ogra: you realise we build CDs for architectures on ports.u.c, right?
<mdz> the isos aren't mirrored as widely, but in reality I don't think that presents much of a problem
<ogra> well, if we turn away from ppc, i dont think i'll demote time into ppc testing first place anymore ...
<mdz> download figures show there's very little demand for them, as documented in the proposal
<mdz> it's important to note, both here and in any announcement, that we're talking about a reclassification of the port, not dropping it
<sabdfl> it's not hugely expensive for us to support
<ogra> iMacs make also very nice thin clients ...
<pitti> we have a lot of ppc specific problems ATM, and few people have the time to look into them and fix them
<mjg59> mdz: Have any mirror operators complained about the size of the archive?
<sabdfl> if sufficient community interest means the packages all build and ISO's work and get tested, the impact is minimal
<elmo> mjg59: yes
<mdz> mjg59: ->elmo, but yes,  is my understanding
<mjg59> elmo: Would the reclassification of PPC be sufficient to resolve this?
<elmo> lots.  the archive is 200Gb
<elmo> mjg59: that and removal of older distros would help alleviate the problem.  you're never going to resolve it entirely
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: experience shows that pre-release community testing is way, way smaller than what we'd like it to be.  Ports even less.
<elmo> Mithrandir: to be fair none of the current port architectures HAVE a community to speak of
<elmo> I think we hire or have hired every existing hppa user in the world ever.
<mjg59> elmo: Well, it's arguable about whether PPC does
<ogra> i'd rather think the ppc community has more endusers than devs by design ...
<mjg59> At least, in terms of the development community
<sabdfl> we may need to have some official arch's that are mirrored only by explicit decision of the mirror
<Keybuk> elmo: not to mention the entire Herd community
<mjg59> Even Debian appears to have difficulty obtaining sufficient PPC input
<sabdfl> sparc, for example
<elmo> well as a first step we need to stop sending distros we EOLed 6 months ago to mirrors, but yes
<mjg59> I think the mirror space argument is effectively separate from the support argument
<elmo> mjg59: I heard that there was some problems with personality conflicts and debian powerpc  developers?  something to do with d-i?  not sure of the details, tho
<mjg59> Changing the status of the architecture would be one way of forcing a resolution of that issue, but we could achieve the same without doing so
<mjg59> elmo: I don't think there's been any real movement on finding a replacement for the previous porter
<sabdfl> main concerns for me are: live-cd / framebuffer / X / ubiquity / boot manager issues complicating Colin's life
<mjg59> Anyway, I think we should ignore the mirror space argument
<sabdfl> - risk of apps FTBFS slowing down adoption of new upstream goodness
<mdz> Even the "petition" in the wiki has few names on it, and most of them seem to be reacting to a belief that the port will go away and/or they won't be able to use it on their systems anymore
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: casper doesn't really have any extra code for supporting ppc so it's not a big problem there at least.
<Keybuk> perhaps we should describe it as a "universe architecture" ? or similar
<Keybuk> make it more obvious that it'll be supported by the community
<ogra> ltsp has, and we are currently the only distro supporting ppc-ltsp at all ...
<sabdfl> ok, i promised keybuk we would keep it tight
<Keybuk> and it'll only really affect people with conanical support contracts
<mjg59> I don't think this conversation is doing a good job of quantifying the costs
<mjg59> Nothing that anyone has said so far has helped me form an opinion
<mdz> * FredericBages -- France -- Ubuntu is the best OS for my PCs and iBook G3. As I try to keep the same OS on my PCs and laptop I would have to change my PCs OS if ubuntu becomes unsupported on my iBook :-( Would it be at least possible to keep the "stable" release supported ?
<Keybuk> I don't really have an opinion here either
<mdz> perhaps we haven't done a very good job at presenting the nature of the decision here
<Keybuk> Ubuntu has never fully worked on my PowerBook
<mjg59> I don't think the small userbase is an issue. It's not (in itself) a cost.
<sabdfl> testing at crunch time is
<mdz> mjg59: my reasoning is that PowerPC has many fixed resource costs, e.g. testing of CD images, relative to its miniscule user base
<mjg59> The costs of maintaining PPC support are, as far as I can see:
<mjg59> a) testing
<mjg59> b) fixing PPC-specific bugs
<mdz> PowerPC costs us as much to validate as i386, but provides much less value to the community
<mjg59> But I see absolutely no numbers that tell me how much developer time is currently spent on these things
<ogra> during release testing 1/3 of the time ?
<Mithrandir> mjg59: do you want back-of-the-envelope calculations or proper numbers?
<mjg59> So I'm faced with some nebulous downsides to keeping it, along with nebulous positives
<mdz> mjg59: I'm sure you realize the complexity of assigning numbers in that way
<mdz> mjg59: call it 25% of the release testing effort
<mjg59> mdz: Absolutely. But right now, I have absolutely no clue at all.
<mdz> somewhat less than 25% of mirror space
<mjg59> As I said before, I think the mirror space argument is a side issue
<mjg59> That can be resolved in any case
<mdz> I don't agree; the mirror will always be that much larger on account of powerpc
<mjg59> Splitting the archive can be done without changing the status of the port
<mdz> there's no imminent mirror crisis as a result of powerpc, but it's a cost we carry
<pitti> mjg59: in edgy I might have spent 10 hours total on ppc related issues, and I think I might even be a developer who cares relatively much about ppc; our bug fixing efforts are way too little to sustain a good quality of the port IMHO
<mjg59> Ok, that's a good point
<mjg59> Does the relatively poor quality of the PPC port damage our reputation?
<mdz> I don't think it has enough users to have any such effect
<pitti> well, it's still the best Linux distro you can get, I thihnk
<pitti> it just doesn't keep up with the quality of i386
<ogra> right, i think its a prestige question as well ... it wont damage our reputation, but keep it up if we continue supporting it
<mdz> we have a number of developers who work on powerpc, but their PowerBooks are dying one by one and can't be replaced
<mdz> they will be replaced with x86 systems
<Keybuk> the numbers game interests me
<Keybuk> I haven't seen a Linux PPC user who isn't using Ubuntu
<ogra> right, but as long as they are there we could go on ...
<Keybuk> do PPCs really not last that long?
<mdz> Colin couldn't even find a replacement power supply for his in SF
<ogra> heh
<ogra> he could have bought one on the vending machine
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: my ppc runs Debian.
<mjg59> There's a spare sitting on my desk at work. Absolutely no idea who owns it...
<pitti> I'll continue using mine as long as it works well
<ogra> he just didnt want to
<elmo> Keybuk: the laptops are terrible, reliability wise, IME
<mjg59> But anyway
<mdz> Keybuk: I've seen as many dead ones as live ones in the past 6 months
<mdz> if I could elmo's, which played dead
<mdz> s/could/count/
<mjg59> Right now, the spec doesn't sway me either way
<pitti> but the spec should at least make it clear that we continue support for the released stables (since that guy was concerned about it)
<Keybuk> I thought elmo's played "missing, presumed STOLEN" ?
<elmo> Keybuk: that was powerbook #1, he means powerbook #3
<sabdfl> pitti: +1, could you add that?
<mdz> pitti: we'll make a proper announcement, not point people to the spec
<Keybuk> what happened to #2 ?
<elmo> #2 had a logic board failure and was replaced
<pitti> mdz: right
<pitti> sabdfl: I can add it anyway, I figure, just for clarity
<mdz> especially considering it's been wikified
<elmo> (the [original]  spec is my fault)
<sabdfl> there are good, high profile dev's who use Ubuntu for its PPC support
* ogra makes a note to wear hos hotpants next time he meets elmo
<sabdfl> we will lose some of them, certainly
<ogra> *his
<sabdfl> though, flip side, it might encourage them to get more organised to contribute to the port
<mdz> sabdfl: developers who contribute to Ubuntu?
<sabdfl> if they think it will have a material impact on the iso's
<Keybuk> mdz: a fair number of ubuntu's core developers are PPC users
<sabdfl> mdz: other than canonical, NAFAIK
<mdz> I know of a few who use it and may be advocates, but don't participate
<mdz> Keybuk: point taken, I meant externally
<mjg59> mdz: I think it's overly simplistic to think of the benefit from developers using Ubuntu purely in terms of the contributoins they make back to Ubuntu
<sabdfl> surely core folks would have made more comments on the spec?
<sabdfl> mjg59: agreed
<Keybuk> pitti: random question
<mdz> mjg59: certainly, but it's misleading to characterize it as losing developers
<Keybuk> if this spec is approved, would you replace your PPC with an i386 or amd64 based machine?
<pitti> Keybuk: no, I wouldn't, not immediately
<pitti> Keybuk: we have edgy and dapper, and they work well
<mdz> mjg59: if they're only with Ubuntu because of PowerPC, then when their PowerPCs die, they might just as likely switch to another distro then anyway
<mjg59> mdz: Do you have any feeling for how the edgy release would have been affected if we hadn't released PPC as an official architecture?
<Keybuk> pitti: so you'd, in fact, still be spending time on the PPC port; simply to keep your primary development box up and running
<pitti> Keybuk: it's not my primary box, but I would probably apply some bug workarounds
<mdz> mjg59: yes, my team would have slept more
<pitti> Keybuk: but I would definitively not buy any new powerpc hardware any more
<elmo> slackers
<sabdfl> pffst
<sabdfl> sleep
<mdz> mjg59: it takes the better part of a full day just to do a quick validation cycle on all of the ISOs we ship in an official release
<pitti> in fact, I bought that ppc in the first place to have all supported arches at home :)
<mdz> mjg59: powerpc is a multiplier on that
<ogra> likewise
<pitti> mdz: 7 hours for me, on the 'all goes well' case
<mjg59> mdz: If you feel that the current release testing schedule is impractical while maintaining sanity, and that the easiest way to rectify this is to drop PPC, then I'm happy to go with you on that.
<mdz> mjg59: we're pursuing a number of strategies to make it less painful, including more automation and more community involvement
<Keybuk> pitti: would you buy new PPC hardware if we continued to support it?
<mjg59> mdz: But I'd like to see an argument for why other alternatives are impractical
<sabdfl> mdz: if we had three community folks commit to being very active at crunch time, would you consider it less of an issue?
<mdz> mjg59: PowerPC is a very simple one which can be executed immediately with immediate benefit
<mjg59> Such as throwing more people at it, for instance
<Keybuk> PowerPC is the only architecture we don't test mostly in vmware <g>
<mdz> mjg59: people = money, that's just converting the cost from one unit to another
<pitti> Keybuk: not a PS3; if Apple would produce a G5 laptop, then I'd consider it (for the same argument: arch coverage at home, and these things also have a certain appeal)
<mdz> sabdfl: I can't see that working; it isn't reasonable to expect three volunteers to go through what we do at release time
<mdz> it's weeks of solid full-time work
<mjg59> mdz: Yes. But it's much easier to think in terms of "Is PPC support worth ($x)"
<pitti> Keybuk: in warty/hoary times, the OOTB quality of the ppc port was pretty amazing, too
<pitti> since then, the quality didn't really drop, but expectations rose :)
<sabdfl> mjg59: we have a hard number on that, it's about $750k p.a. all in, if you factor in security support over time
<mjg59> mdz: If what you're saying is that you don't believe your team can realistically continue to support PPC, then, as I said, I'm absolutely happy to go with that
<mdz> mjg59: manpower would address a part of the issue, but there are other bits which don't parallelize the same (e.g., the time to roll a complete, new set of images)
<mjg59> But that's not the sort of impression I get from the spec, and I think the arguments the spec makes are much weaker
<sabdfl> mdz: iso building should parallelize across architectures, surely?
<mdz> mjg59: I don't think it's practical for the existing team, as staffed, to support it while maintaining the standard of quality we want for more mainstream architectures
<elmo> sabdfl: no
<elmo> sabdfl: there's only one IO path in the machine
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: no, we build all the ISOs on one machine.
<Mithrandir> (we build the livefs-es in parallell, which helps a lot)
<sabdfl> interesting. that seems fixable
* elmo cries quietly in the corner
<elmo> this spec wasn't meant to get me MORE machines
<sabdfl> we have buildd's, and they are explicitly not building packages at the time we are rolling iso's
<mdz> mjg59: I agree that the spec doesn't cover all arguments; we discussed at great length at UDS
<mjg59> mdz: Sadly, time constraints meant I wasn't able to participate in the UDS sessions to any great extent
<mdz> sabdfl: building a complex distributed architecture to replace a simple centralized one has its own cost
<elmo> sabdfl: you don't want to be building ISOs on our buildds.  it's super ISO intensive
<elmo> err
<elmo> s/ISO/IO/
<mdz> both in development and upkeep
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: I'd much rather have an even faster cd build machine than multiple build machines.  The former makes my job more complex.  (Though that discussion is tangential to the discussion at hand).
<mjg59> mdz: But I'd like to see the spec make the arguments that are considered compelling
<elmo> (and like mdz says, it's a much more complicated architecture to develop/maintain)
<mdz> mjg59: I think different folks find different arguments compelling, but of course I agree that the spec should be comprehensive
<mdz> mjg59: elmo made reference to another similar multiplier cost; sysadmin resources
<Keybuk> ok, three hours
<mdz> it's 4xN machines which have certain resource requirements, rather than 3xN
<Keybuk> we don't appear to be reaching any form of consensus here :-/
<sabdfl> sorry, keybuk, didn't foresee the fireworks
<mjg59> Ok. My opinion is that there are technical arguments for and against keeping the port, and neither convinces me.
<mjg59> There are also commercial arguments.
<mjg59> I consider the commercial arguments to be stronger than the technical ones.
<mjg59> And so, personally, I feel that this is a decision best left to the management of the distribution.
<mdz> I don't think there are technical arguments
<mdz> it doesn't inherently suck as an architecture
<mdz> it's a matter of resources as far as I'm concerned
<Keybuk> I don't really see any arguments for tossing the port out other than mdz's desire to reduce his team's workload
<mdz> we should spend our resources where they provide the best value to Ubuntu
<sabdfl> mjg59: you are the management of the distribution :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: it's not reducing the workload so much as spending it more wisely
<Keybuk> the technical ones are all largely invented to suit the spec
<sabdfl> in the sense that, if TB wants to allocate resources to PPC, I'm fine with it
<mjg59> sabdfl: We get to decide funding-requiring decisions? Sweet! When do I get an entertainments budget?
<sabdfl> but the result will be some fewer resources will go to other options
<sabdfl> mjg59: i sing, i dance...
<Mithrandir> mjg59: I'm sure you can get a PS3 to do acpi hacking on. ;-P
* Mithrandir hides
<Keybuk> I don't see that the TB has any decision about how mdz allocates his resources ... we can certainly say we'd like it to be an Ubuntu architecture; but that requires a team to want to do it
<Keybuk> up until now, that's been the canonical distro team
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> true
<mdz> the two are not really separable
<Keybuk> if they want to cease, that's no different than all the motu resigning
<mdz> Canonical is deeply involved in core Ubuntu development
<mdz> especially in the areas hardest hit by PowerPC (e.g., sysadmin, release process)
<lifeless> we should get a video of the all-signing all-dancing sabd
<sabdfl> oh no
<Keybuk> "is very very nice"
<kylem> Keybuk, bwhahaha.
<kylem> da da da.
* pitti remembers the video and can't keep from ROFLing
<sabdfl> if the TB decides to keep PPC, i won't argue that we don't have the resources
<mjg59> If it's practical, I think it would be nice to see us do one official release that supports the PS3
<mdz> resourcing is never that simple
<sabdfl> IOW, i see this as a "what's best for ubuntu" decision, and trust the TB w.r.t. considering the alternative uses of those resources
<mjg59> Because I think that's the only real hope of there being a significant change in the PPC userbase trend
<sabdfl> my own view is that i would rather be devoting more resources to the arch's which have huge user bases
<sabdfl> people for whom the economics of free software are potentially vital
<mdz> mjg59: do you feel that official status is important in that equation?
<pitti> mjg59: although PS3 is certainly an interesting target to hack on, do you reckon it would have an actually interested user base for putting Linux on it? (I seriously don't know)
<mjg59> pitti: I have absolutely no idea
<sabdfl> i think most PPC linux users are entirely voluntarily so, and probably have multiple machines
<sabdfl> that's not true of i386
<mdz> mjg59: people use Debian on PowerPC widely, and it has similar characteristics to a community-driven Ubuntu port
<Keybuk> I don't think PS3 is really that interesting (I don't have one :p)
<elmo> I was super convinced by the PS3 argument.  until i discovered it had 256Mb of memory
<Keybuk> PS2 never has been an interesting arch
<mjg59> I think we have a better chance if there's an official release, sure
<sabdfl> so, philanthropically, i don't think PPC is a win
<mdz> sabdfl: ++
<Keybuk> most people will play games on them, not Linux
<Keybuk> tuxracer is not what a PS3 was meant for
<elmo> Keybuk: PS2 was an entirely different chipset and machine and Sony weren't pushing Linux on it
<elmo> I'm not sure it's a fair comparison
<Keybuk> elmo: Sony pushed Linux fairly hard to the developer community, and got nowhere
<mjg59> I think the main argument in favour of PS3 support is that it gives something that can get into the hands of kids who wouldn't be allowed to install Linux on their parents PCs
<Keybuk> "look, Linux on my PS2!  sweet!  now what?"
<elmo> Keybuk: not in anything like the same way
<elmo> Keybuk: they've been leading the charge for the PS3, contributing ports to gcc, binutils etc.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Linux on the PS2 always involved extra hardware
<mdz> unless Cell takes off and desktop application software starts to take advantage of it, I don't think PS3 is very interesting for Ubuntu or Linux
<Keybuk> elmo: we do actually support 256MB of memory
<elmo> Keybuk: yes, have you tried using it in anger?  I have, and I upgraded my RAM as a result
<Keybuk> elmo: yes
<Keybuk> I deliberately test with it
* pitti had 256 MB on his iBook until a month ago, worked fine (apart from OO.o)
<Keybuk> you can't use oo.o
<elmo> ...
<Keybuk> but other than that, it's not too bad
<elmo> because no one uses an office app, right?
<mjg59> Well, probably not on a PS3
<Keybuk> *shrug* abiword was fine
<Keybuk> and so was gnumeric
<pitti> latex+gnumeric for me
<lifeless> kobodl on ps3 ;) nice image.
<mjg59> But I still don't think we're really getting anywhere
<Keybuk> I'd propose the following:
<sabdfl> if sony decides to push linux on ps3
<Keybuk> - mdz should allocate the resources of his team how he best feels
<sabdfl> they will pick a distro partner
<sabdfl> so far, it looks like YDL
<Keybuk> - we'd like to keep PPC as an Ubuntu architecture, whether officially or community supported
<ogra> PS3 would make a wonderful ltsp fat-client :)
<ogra> even with oo.o
<Keybuk> - if the canonical distro team cease official work on it, we'd welcome a community team to take over
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<mdz> Keybuk: we can't claim an official port without any developers backing it; Canonical is the backbone of the port
<Keybuk> mdz: that's why I didn't say "official architecture"
<pitti> but then we should be honest and call it 'port' right away IMHO
<sabdfl> if we drop it as an official architecture, i think we should emphasise how the community can keep the port ticking
<mdz> Keybuk: that's the same as saying "we'd like to keep PPC as a community supported architecture"
<sabdfl>  - builds continue
<Keybuk> mdz: that's what I said :)
<sabdfl>  - iso builds continue
<sabdfl>  - testing schedule is public so community folks can sign off
<Keybuk> my wording was perhaps not clear
<sabdfl>  - we'll include it in release announcements if it's baked on time
<sabdfl> etc
<mdz> given that everyone seems to think that we're talking about removing the port entirely, we could present this as a decision to rescue the powerpc port as a community-driven project ;-)
<Keybuk> yes
<sabdfl> mdz: spin artist
<mdz> ...and the crowd goes wild
<mdz> sabdfl: you hired me
<sabdfl> mdz: where were you last night?
<Keybuk> Xubuntu manages to be an ubuntu derivative without having any kind of officially supported status
<Keybuk> I don't see why PPC can't have the same success within the community
<mdz> sabdfl: in bed asleep
<sabdfl> at the death of transparency
<sabdfl> you presided
<sabdfl> ah well
<sabdfl> i think this is a chance for the PPC folks to step up
<sabdfl> you never know
<mdz> Keybuk: agreed
<sabdfl> a few good folks and PPC could be in great shape for feisty
<mjg59> Entirely coincidentally, I've actually just switched on my PPC dev box for the first time in a year
<Keybuk> mjg59: any objection to that position for the TB?
<mjg59> Keybuk: I think that's actually the best we can come up with.
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i think we have consensus
<sabdfl>  - ppc becomes a community port
<sabdfl>  - we communicate strongly that existing stable releases continue to get maintanance
<sabdfl>  - we invite PPC team to form around the port
<sabdfl>  - we continue to make iso's etc as long as they are buildable
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-powerpc
<sabdfl>  - we include PPC in release announcements if the PPC team has signed off on it
<Keybuk> - we continue to provide PPC buildds as long as the hardware works
<sabdfl> yes, and if the community is active we can replace those when the time comes too
<pitti> installer work commitment?
<sabdfl> no problem funding hardware
<mdz> PPC buildds and such may not be expected to meet the same service level as official architectures, but they are redundant
<sabdfl> pitti: community
<Keybuk> pitti: the installer should probably be maintained by the community/team
<Keybuk> the colin clone farm crop was lost
<sabdfl> mdz: i wouldnt want the community team to feel they are working against the odds
<sabdfl> so, give them the horsepower
<sabdfl> i'm sure we can get donated hardware, for a start
<mdz> that means nothing would change for elmo; if that's ok with him then sure
<sabdfl> elmo just got a raise ;-)
<mdz> if e.g. hppa craps out, we don't wake elmo
<ogra> "find *donated* PPC hardware" is a raise ? :)
<elmo> it's fine by me
<sabdfl> ok
<elmo> [well, not the donated hardware part without restrictions (i.e. I don't want to run a farm of laptops in our DC), but we can discuss those later] 
<sabdfl> elmo: i had quality donations in mind, from the manufacturer
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-06
<sabdfl> any dissenting opinions?
<mdz> I'm comfortable with those bullet points
<sabdfl> mjg59? Keybuk?
<Keybuk> fine by me
<mjg59> I'm good
<sabdfl> ok. we may get to revisit this in future, if resources are made available. for now i think it is the right decision.
<sabdfl> phew
<sabdfl> mdz?
<siretart> next (and last) agenda item?
<mdz> sabdfl: shall I draft the announcement?  "we are pleased to announce that powerpc has been updated to community status!"
<Keybuk> siretart: you snuck that in, that's naughty
<mdz> Keybuk: he cleared it with me
<mdz> about 5 minutes into this meeting
<mdz> but perhaps he will have mercy and defer to the next meeting
<pitti> whoa, already Friday
<pitti> erm, Wednesday
<sabdfl> mdz: easy on the spin, it needs to be sincere, not everyone will get the in-jokes
<mdz> siretart: would that be OK with you?
<Seveas> pitti, it was 3 hours, not 3 days ;)
<siretart> mmmh, it would have been nicer if that would have been more clear a few hours earlier
<mdz> sabdfl: apparently not everyone gets my jokes even here
<siretart> I don't want big discussion about that anyway
<pitti> Seveas: just another proof of brainmelt :)
<siretart> I'm rather interested in what the problems are
<sabdfl> siretart: juris-my-diction crap
<sabdfl> anyone, anyone...
<siretart> so I suggest I paste my lines and hear 3 minutes of comments about my proposal
<sabdfl> siretart we can't possibly do it justice in that time
<sabdfl> it's a minefield
<pitti> what's the topic again?
<sabdfl> <jedi wave>
<ogra> pitti, patents
<lifeless> #
<lifeless> Inclusion of packages in main with potential patent issues - ReinhardTartler
<sabdfl> there are no patent issues in linux
<siretart> it is a question about policy rather
<sabdfl> </jedi wave>
<siretart> I wanted to ask what the current policy regarding potentially patented packages for ubuntu main is.
<siretart> Please note that we have a lot of packages, which are indeed patented, but not actively enforced. We seem to have no problem with that. However, there is big uncertainity when it comes to multimedia packages.
<siretart> I'm asking about multimedia packages like ffmpeg. While they are DFSG free and in debian main, this package has recently been demoted from main to universe in breezy.
<mjg59> Aren't we broadly aligned with Debian here?
<mdz> summary: there exist free software programs that aren't appropriate for Ubuntu to include because of potential litigious issues
<siretart> I have some plans with xine. in detail, I want to undo the split of the source package that was done in the xine package. I want to arrange means by splitting the unified source package in seperate binary packages, so that no mp3 decoder needs to be in the ship seed (and therefore on the desktop cd)
<pitti>     libmad | 0.15.1b-2.1 | http://de.archive.ubuntu.com feisty/main Sources
<siretart> But I wanted to ask on what to look after while preparing my request.
<siretart> so in fact, my question is if there are patent problems with ffmpeg having in main
<siretart> that's basically all
<Keybuk> siretart: ffmpeg is the subject of patents being actively enforced
<Keybuk> which is why it's not in main
<siretart> Keybuk: and why does it exist in debian/main then?
<siretart> sorry, I don't get it at all
<mjg59> In that we'll ship anything if we don't think there's a realistic chance of us or our users being sued
<Keybuk> because debian don't usually discriminate based on patents
<sabdfl> siretart: it's quite possible there are inconsistencies
<mjg59> Debian may have different ideas about how realistic a threat is
<siretart> Keybuk: which patents? the mp3 encoding patent? that is already disabled
<mdz> in some cases the issues are entirely unclear, in some they are just clear enough that some concern is justified (and we shouldn't ship them), and in others they are clear as a heart attack
<mjg59> I was under the impression that our patent position had always been clear - if that's not the case, then we should clarify that
<mjg59> But otherwise, it's a package by package issue
<siretart> Keybuk: even in debian (and we ship a very similar package)
<mjg59> A package's position in Debian is indicative, but doesn't define our approach to the same package
<siretart> mjg59: to me the patent position is very unclear to me. espc. the differences to debian's policy
<mjg59> siretart: There are no differences to Debian's policy.
<siretart> and the fact that we had ffmpeg in main for hoary
<Keybuk> we don't ship anything in main if we believe there's a reasonable chance either we, or our users, would get sued
<mjg59> But even with the same policy, we can reach different outcomes.
<sabdfl> by and large, if there is a clear patent problem with free code, we make the code availabel via network repository for people to whom the patent issue does not apply
<siretart> mjg59: in this case, I conclude that there wouldn't be any problems with ffmpeg in main
<siretart> mjg59: but there seems to be be problems. you see why I'm highly confused?
<mjg59> siretart: If you have issues with a specific package, then write a main inclusion report sufficiently good to counter any arguments over patents
<sabdfl> if the patent is not enforced, or not applicable in most jurisdictions, then we've shipped code in the past
<mjg59> siretart: If there are no actively enforced patents covering our ffmpeg package, it can go in main.
<mdz> siretart: shipping questionable software to countries which enforce that sort of thing is widely considered to be a bad idea
<siretart> mjg59: I wanted to have this cleared before I start to write an inclusion request. espc for the highly disputed package ffmpeg
<mjg59> But just as us having a package in main doesn't mean that Debian will, a package's location in Debian may not match ours
<mdz> we are in a very different position than Debian where potential litigation is concerned
<pitti> mdz: 'shipping' applies to 'put on CD', I figure?
<sabdfl> main is different to ship
<mdz> pitti: or, *cough* DVD
<mjg59> I don't think there's anything else the TB can say in this respect
<siretart> mdz: the thing is that to the research of the debian maintainer, there are no patents known to be enforced, which would be applicable to the ffmpeg package
<siretart> TTBOMK, at least
<mdz> sabdfl: not by much
<sabdfl> yeah, forgot about the DVD
<pitti> mdz: we don't press DVDs?
<sabdfl> give me 5 minutes, i'll have forgotten about it again and be happy :-)
<siretart> the thing is this: I want either ffmpeg in main, or xine being demoted
<Mithrandir> pitti: amazon sells Ubuntu DVDs.
<mdz> I am legally protected from participating in this conversation in this country
<mjg59> siretart: That's not a TB decision
<siretart> the problem with the demotion is, that the kubuntu and xubuntu folks would be very pissed
<lifeless> mdz: protected ?
<siretart> because they rely heavily on libxine
<mdz> lifeless: protected.
<lifeless> wow
<mjg59> Or, rather, it's not a TB decision as framed in the current topic
<siretart> mjg59: well, since it affects both xubuntu and kubuntu, why isn't this a TB topic?
<mjg59> siretart: Because you said you were going to talk about patents
<siretart> mjg59: yes. with the goal to save much PITA regarding xine packaging
<mjg59> I believe that our patent policy is clear, and that we've made it clear how you should proceed on this issue.
<siretart> mjg59: okay. I will continue with an main report, and refer to logs to this discussion
<siretart> mjg59: I still suggest that we have a wiki page with some patent policy statement
<mjg59> Now, today and yesterday combined mean that I've spent over 6 hours in Ubuntu meetings this week, and so I propose that I now go and find a drink :)
<Mithrandir> in the entirely hypotetical situation that an archive admin is unsure about whether something is actually suitable for main, should he bring it up for the tech board then?
<mjg59> Mithrandir: It sounds more like a legal decision than a technical one...
<mdz> mjg59: I'm buying
<Mithrandir> I'd not like to be the one promoting ffmpeg if it ends up causing Canonical to be sued.
<mdz> unfortunately for you, cocktail hour is still several hours and several thousand miles away
<mc44> "not actively enforced" would seem to be a very legal quesion
<siretart> does it really matter in what directory in the archive we ship it?
<sabdfl> if a company claims to have a patent, they are welcome to approach us to discuss it
* pitti would have no clue how to answer/verify this when processing a MIR
<sabdfl> so far, AFAIK that has never happened
<sabdfl> thanks all
<mjg59> siretart: To our users? Yes.
<Keybuk> siretart: yes, in most legal juristictions it makes a big difference whether we send it on CD, or a user chooses to download it
<sabdfl> wow
<siretart> mjg59: this is a legal discussion
<sabdfl> three hours, 5 new developers, 1 patent policy, one less architecture
<sabdfl> that was fun :-)
<siretart> Keybuk: I plan to arrange that ffmpeg does NOT need to be on the cd
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: do we have a legal consel we can talk to or should the ubuntu-archive team members not care about this problem until we're approached?
<siretart> Keybuk: I want it just in main, not on the live cd
<Keybuk> sabdfl: closer to four hours now ;)
<siretart> Keybuk: I need it as build dependency for xine
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: use reasonable discretion, don't panic, don't ship DeCSS
<mdz> seeking legal counsel for archive changes is not a reasonable approach for us
<Keybuk> siretart: as mjg59 says, file a MIR
<sabdfl> there's always OIN
<sabdfl> btw, folks we just asked to join FFII
<mdz> DeCSS is an entirely separate issue (copyright circumvention), no?
<elmo> mdz: yes
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: and in the cases we're not sure?  I'm not talking about the obvious cases, they're not very interesting.
<Keybuk> sabdfl: ironically, Mithrandir can ship DeCSS :)  he's in Norway
<sabdfl> formally funding the fight against software patents in europe
<mc44> sabdfl: that doesnt work for mp3 patent holders though :)
<sabdfl> an announcement will come soon
<elmo> Keybuk: he can't ship it on OUR servers
<siretart> Keybuk: I interpret this as "the tb does not see principal or legal problems with having ffmpeg in main". that is the answer I wanted to hear
<Keybuk> siretart: the TB has clarified our patent policy, and has no opinion either way on ffmpeg
<Keybuk> we haven't investigated it
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: it's up to someone to enforce their patents
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: I'll be happy to take this to email since everybody is tired of the meeting now.
<sabdfl> that's the law, i believe
<ogra> Mithrandir++++
<siretart> ok. let's end this.
<sabdfl> thanks everyone, very good meeting
<siretart> gn8 everyone
<pitti> siretart: thanks for bringing this up
<sabdfl> i'll be happy when we have the MC in place to deal with approvals
<sabdfl> it's fun to talk through the policy stuff though
<sabdfl> night / afternoon / morning all
<pitti> thanks everyone
<mdz> we'll have more time to spend arguing about this sort of thing
<mdz> thanks all
<ogra> thanks and night ...
<fernando> lla ih
<tonyyarusso> ...niaga toN
<fernando> hehehe
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 06 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 12 Dec 16:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 06 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 16:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 09:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 12 Dec 10:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu
<freeflying_> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 07 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 Dec 06:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<cbx33> Hi AliasVegas_
<AliasVegas_> Hi all! :)
<highvoltage> hi AliasVegas!
<AliasVegas_> ^_^
<tsmithe> wie geht's?
<nixternal> well hello there everyone
<tsmithe> tag
<cbx33> Wir ist Gut Ja?
<highvoltage> hello to you too mr nixternal
<tsmithe> ja!
<cbx33> hey nixternal
<tsmithe> wir *sind*
<tsmithe> :D
<cbx33> ah yes
<cbx33> meine German is nicht so gut
<tsmithe> ah well
<tsmithe> let's try french
<tsmithe> ca va?
<highvoltage> wii!
<cbx33> Tre Bien Merci
<cbx33> Tres
<highvoltage> merci kubuntu
<nixternal> i was raised on english and i can't even speak/read/nor write it worth a darn, and you want to change up and speak something different ;)
<tsmithe> ah well
* tsmithe likes languages
<tsmithe> please don't forward me to #ubuntu-fr or -de :)
<tsmithe> i'm not *that* good
<ogra> evening everybody
<LaserJock> nixternal: yeah, it's an American thing ;-)
<highvoltage> good evening ogra
<highvoltage> and LaserJock :)
<nixternal> hehe
<ogra> RichEd is apparently at a business appointment, so he wont be here ...
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> and i thik willvdl is with him
<ogra> so lets have a short tech update ...
<highvoltage> I'll probably be here for just 30minutes or so, been awake since 5 this morning and it's 22:01 atm here
<ogra> herd1 was released today
<cbx33> :D
* highvoltage saw tollef's announcement! \o/
<ogra> took me a bit of effort since i just returned last monday but seems it worked out well
<ogra> i'm currently preparing a split of the edubuntu-artwork package into edubutu-artwork and edubuntu-default-settings
<cbx33> nice one ogra you rock dude
<highvoltage> good call imo
<cbx33> indeed
<LaserJock> excellent
<ogra> additionally i'll move edubuntu-docs to main, if the doc writers are confident we'll have something for the release
<LaserJock> heh, is this an EC meeting?
<LaserJock> *heah
<cbx33> heah?
<ogra> hmm, right, first meeting ...
<cbx33> :p
<LaserJock> cbx33: it's hard to spell sounds right
<LaserJock> :p
<cbx33> okie dokie ;)
<ogra> ltsp was merged with the debian branch today, that gives us encrypted swap and dropped the printer support (there is no proper license for the print server apparently)
<ogra> i started a new project called jetpipe
<ogra> its a very simple python script that forwards all traffic from a certain port to a printer device
<ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/people/ogra/+branch/ltsp/feisty-ltsp-jetpipe is the bzr branch
<ogra> its basically working, but will need many hands to help out with one or the other python stanza
<LaserJock> cool
<cbx33> ogra, cool
<cbx33> just tell me what you need dude
<ogra> so all devs around, please have a look at revision 456 to 457, its basically the complete code (50 lines)
<cbx33> wow
<ogra> there is a TODO at the top
<rockprincess> hello everyone!
<ogra> it would be odd if we had to release feisty ltsp without printer support ...
<ogra> hey rockprincess
<rockprincess> i've heard an edubuntu meeting takes place here?
<cbx33> indeed
<rockprincess> hello ogra!
<cbx33> rockprincess, indeed it does
<highvoltage> hi rockprincess
<rockprincess> hello cbx33
<rockprincess> hi highvoltage
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda has the meeting agenda
<rockprincess> i've some news regarding my edubuntu project
<ogra> we're still at the tech part
<rockprincess> oh i see, then i don't wanna bother you!
<ogra> cbx33, we'll need to talk about the new SCP :)
<cbx33> ogra, I was waiting for that ;)
<ogra> lets do that during the next days
<cbx33> fantastic
<ogra> and go through the topics :)
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> can we set a meeting date ?
<ogra> suggest one :)
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> ogra, tomorrow evening?
<ogra> thats fine
<ogra> what time ? (UTC)
<cbx33> same time as now
<cbx33> 20:00 UTC
<ogra> oki, 20:00 UTC then
<cbx33> exshellent
<ogra> apart from that, ltsp-managers new design is slowly evolving in my head :) and i got the lts.conf parser done
<cbx33> oooh excellent
<ogra> i havent talked to moquist yet about the smbldap status, he was working with upstream for the gui
<LaserJock> ogra: subscribe to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-menus-completion
<ogra> LaserJock, how is the status of that one ?
<cbx33> the new SCP is gonna rock so much
<cbx33> though it's not called that now is it
<ogra> do you think it will be ready for main for feisty ?
<LaserJock> ogra: pending approval on the spec
<LaserJock> and most likely
<ogra> right, its called thin-client-manager
<ogra> LaserJock, cool
<ogra> dont forget the two CD spec will get us a lot of extra work ...
<cbx33> yes
<ogra> (i still have no idea how to split)
<LaserJock> I might need a little help on a pygtk GUI from you or Pete
<cbx33> sure np
<LaserJock> yeah, I wanted to talk a little about that
<ogra> i'd like to stay the liveCD as is for example
<cbx33> +1
<ogra> but i'm not sure our infrastructure supports that
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> in what way
<ogra> the install CD will likel loose a lo of the educational apps
<ogra> *likely
<ogra> i.e. gcompris and kdeedu will have to go
<LaserJock> can you just manipulate the live seed?
<cbx33> so are we basically becomming the ubuntu live cd?
<highvoltage> gcompris is a big loss :/
<cbx33> and the add on?
<ogra> i will try to
<ogra> no, the liveCd should stay as is, as i said before
<cbx33> right ok
<ogra> i'm talkig about the install CD
<ogra> dropping gcompris and kdeedu will give us ~150-200MB ... we could ship a ton of languages with that
<cbx33> ah
<LaserJock> the 2nd CD would apply to both, but some items should also be on the LiveCD by default, right?
<ogra> the second CD will hook into gnome-app-install and start that if you put it in the tray
<LaserJock> right
<cbx33> ok cool
<ogra> it will offer three meta tasks for three age groups
<ogra> ok, thats about it ... any questions about the tech report ?
<LaserJock> I noticed that synaptic handles tasks in Feisty
<highvoltage> do you have an idea how much space would be available still on the 2nd cd?
<cbx33> are we planning to expand this in the future to have cds for subjects
<ogra> a lot i hope :)
<cbx33> like a history cd etC?
<LaserJock> uggg, I hope not
<ogra> if we have enough spare space i'll throw the open CD on it
<cbx33> did we come to a decision about wikipedia content?
<LaserJock> well, so I was going to put together a list of metapackages, etc. for the second CD
<ogra> its a prepared thing we have lying around anyway, and we should show that edubuntu is good for mixed environments
<LaserJock> but I wanted a little discussion
<LaserJock> I was thinking a few major apps that are suitable for educational use for each discipline
<ogra> that sounds like it would take quite some time, should we do it via mailing list ?
<cbx33> sounds like a good idea
<ogra> or do you want to go over them now ?
<LaserJock> no, email is good
<LaserJock> but I would like to know roughly what we are looking for
<LaserJock> Science is pretty easy really
<LaserJock> lots of apps and I'm pretty familar with them
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> but other disciplines aren't as well represented in the repos I don't think
<ogra> in the other realm we have a lot of duplicates and should see that we get some input ...
<ogra> i.e. look at all the different star simulations
<LaserJock> true, but it's a bit easier for me to spot those
<LaserJock> we also have to consider security and maintainence if these go into Main
<ogra> right
<ogra> wel, with security i rely on the security team for now ...
<LaserJock> anyway, I was just going to shoot for like maybe up to 5 apps for each discipline
<ogra> but maintanance is surely an issue
<ogra> we need enough main devs
<LaserJock> yes
<ogra> that sounds sane for a beginning
<ajmitch> LaserJock: when are you going for core-dev?
<LaserJock> so I didn't want to go overboard
* ogra hopes soonish
<LaserJock> ajmitch: maybe next TB
<ajmitch> ok
<LaserJock> I just wanted to let the dust settle after the first TB in a while
<ogra> ok
<cbx33> ahhh....my dreams of core-edv ;)
<ogra> any other quesions or should we move on ? cbx33 had a topic we postponed last time
<ogra> (btw please add your topics at the bottom on the agenda)
<LaserJock> nah, I'll try to put an initial list together an send it to edubuntu-devel
<ogra> great
<ogra> cbx33, so you would like a TB for edubuntu
<cbx33> I was thinking so yes
<cbx33> nothing big
<cbx33> but as a way to help drive/manage and enhance development for edubuntu
<highvoltage> interesting
<cbx33> Personally, I know ogra does ...well practically all edubuntu dev organising.....and
<cbx33> well I wanted to offer a way to try to reduce his load
<cbx33> and farm it off to a few others too
<cbx33> to free up his time for other concerns
<highvoltage> cbx33: it might also help RichEd's drive to reproduce more ogra's
<ogra> copy/paste from last meeting: ogra	he (cbx33) thinks we should ahve a more democratic approach for leading development ...
<cbx33> indeed
<ogra> ogra	while i agree i think its a bit early for that
<ogra> ogra	we dont have many devs yet, so there is no real benefit in managing teams etc
<cbx33> ogra, yes, though it's not as politcal as taht
<ogra> ogra	the team is only a handfull ...
<ogra> ogra	apart from that i think we will need such a structure at some point ...
<ogra> ogra	but currently it looks to me that it would generate useless extra work with more meetings etc without weighting out the benefit we'll have from it
<ogra> ogra	apart from that we discuss thech issues in the meeting here and now, that should be enough until we have a crowd of devs that becomes hard to manage ...
<ogra> so thats what i said last week about the topic ..
<cbx33> I was just thinking it was worth thinking/initial planning now - to aid the future - maybe if there is a clear team managing it, people will find it easier to get involved?
<cbx33> and have more hands available to answer techish questions
<ogra> well, we should be pen anyway ... no matter how the governance works ...
<cbx33> whilst I am no way even close to knowing all that ogra does.....I could still help out some people
<ogra> *open
<LaserJock> well, I personally think it wouldn't hurt for the Edubuntu Council to also handle technical aspects. the EC only does edubuntu membership approval right now
<cbx33> so they don't keep bugging ;)
<ogra> LaserJock, right
<cbx33> LaserJock, interesting idea ;)
<LaserJock> I  don't particularly see the need for a whole nother set of people
<LaserJock> as we would have more people on boards then people to do the work
<ogra> well, there will be a need for it at some point
<highvoltage> it would probably be more or less the same list as the edubuntu members list anyway :)
<ogra> we gather more devs
<highvoltage> ogra: does it look like more will be hired any time soon?
<LaserJock> once the need grows we could split off a technical board we could do so
<ogra> i mean, look at #edubuntu, there are constantly over 40 ppl in there now
<cbx33> I'm hoping that these people, be they EC, or whatever, could hopefully learn from ogra to be able to help him out morei n the future
<highvoltage> ogra: and is rodarvus still as heavily involved in edubuntu specifics as originally planned?
<ogra> highvoltage, if we get someone who pays for it, yes
<highvoltage> ah ok.
<ogra> rodarvus, is very busy with X
* highvoltage has noticed
<LaserJock> I think cbx33 has a definate point about needing development organization and management
<ogra> and i dont know the status of the OLPC efforts
<LaserJock> the spec process is good for higher level and complicated stuff
<ogra> so lets try the EC approach
<LaserJock> but I think we might be able to get more devs interested if we have smaller, bite-sized tasks for people todo
<cbx33> LaserJock, +1
<cbx33> as was the original intention
<ogra> right, a wikipage with a list and points of contact would be goodd
<LaserJock> I was thinking of once we have a list of apps to go on the 2nd CD we could let people work on the MIRs a little
<cbx33> good idea
<ogra> that wopuld be awesome
<LaserJock> it's easy because it's just a wiki page
<cbx33> I've done MIR's before
<ogra> it will steal half of my development time to write them
<cbx33> so I'll try to help out there
<ogra> one big taks i have on my list since poland is to get moodle suitable for main
<ogra> which nearly means repackaging
<cbx33> excellent
<ogra> well, not really, i'm not thrilled
<LaserJock> heh
<ogra> but its the best web app we have currently
<cbx33> well.....no, but a VLE is needed
<LaserJock> excellent for Edubunt users
<ogra> and its a requirement for the edulinux stuff
<LaserJock> not so great for the poor dev who has to do it :/
<ogra> right
<ogra> wwwconfig-common is a bad beast i'd like to avoid to touch
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> anyway
<LaserJock> ogra: ok, well maybe if you could think of some smaller things for community devs to do (like MIRs, a little python coding, etc.) we can put it on a wiki page
<LaserJock> and free you up a little
<ogra> right, lets do that for a start
<cbx33> go people go
<LaserJock> \o/
<cbx33> maybe then post a mail to the list
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> encouraging people to get involved
<cbx33> maybe post a small summary of tasks
<LaserJock> and I'll blog it ;-)
<cbx33> go the whole hog LaserJock
<ogra> btw, did anybody see my last entry ?
<cbx33> yes
<LaserJock> I think so
<ogra> in the printed version of the german linux-user we have four pages
<cbx33> wow
<ogra> its on the title even :)
<LaserJock> nice
<cbx33> I couldn't understand it
<rodarvus> highvoltage: I was officially loaned to maintain X.Org during feisty development cycle. This loan will (hopefully :) ) end when feisty is released, or possibly even earlier, if we find another maintainer for X
<LaserJock> rodarvus: good news, we want you back
<ogra> cbx33, it was a major praise ...
<cbx33> excellent
<cbx33> any mention of SCP :)
<rodarvus> LaserJock: yeah, I want to be back too :)
<LaserJock> ogra: congrats
<ogra> actually saying edubuntu is the only serious educational distro :)
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> we rock
<ogra> even i had to smile a lot about the assumptions and its a bit to positive, its a nice review
<LaserJock> and let's make Feisty rock harder ;-)
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> totally
<cbx33> woo woo woo
<cbx33> sorry got over excited ;)
<ogra> oki, lets move on
<ogra> tech documentation anyone ?
<ogra> i havent seen sbalneav for qute some time
<nixternal> new handbook design
<cbx33> nice
<nixternal> well, not new, but following the Ubuntu/Kubuntu Desktop Guide layout
<ogra> well, do we have content ?  :)
<nixternal> yes there is content, and yes we need a heck of a lot more
<ogra> yeah
<nixternal> i have it building and validating
<nixternal> so that is a plus
<cbx33> sorry nixternal I'll get mine finished up later
<ogra> i would like to really have somthing in the feisty release, now that we have space
<nixternal> the reason i changed the layout was in case everything doc wise and help wise goes topic based
<nixternal> then it will be an easy convert for the handbook as well
<ogra> did you keep the nice red css ?
<nixternal> im sure we will have some feisty'ness
<nixternal> yes, css is staying the same
<ogra> good
<nixternal> layout will get cleaner as i go
<cbx33> good good
<ogra> i'll have t add more content to the ltsp dev handbook i planned, but i'm not sure i'll find the time for writing
<nixternal> actually, the needed content is the easy stuff, and just a little more ltsp content
<LaserJock> nixternal: maybe you should produce a nice PDF or HTML format version and blog it asking for volunteers?
<nixternal> i can do that LaserJock
<nixternal> doc.ubuntu.com builds it already, sot here is the html
<nixternal> i think it builds it, i will have to double check that
<LaserJock> ok, good
<ogra> thin-client-configurator (ltsp-manager) should make a lot of ltsp documentation obsolete i hope
<nixternal> i know it did in the past
<nixternal> ogra: awesome, because there is a lot of ltsp documentation
<LaserJock> nixternal: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/
<ogra> right, but only for ltsp 4.2
<nixternal> ya, that is the old build there LaserJock
<ogra> i know sbalneav is switching everything, but its still a lot ...
<nixternal> the new one has <xincludes> instead of entity linking
<LaserJock> nixternal: ok, poke mdke about it
<nixternal> i got it. i just need to add it to the new makefile
<LaserJock> k
<ogra> oki, thats it with tech docs ?
<nixternal> trunk must have been branched prior to me editing the edgy makefile
<nixternal> all i have ogra
<ogra> oki
<ogra> ARTWORK !!
<ogra> AliasVegas_, cbx33 ??
<cbx33> hi
<AliasVegas_> yup
<cbx33> Right....
<ogra> any ideas for feisty already ?
<cbx33> well we need really to gather ideas/feedback on the old artwork
<ogra> or ideas for team building ? :)
<cbx33> indeed
<cbx33> That is the other big problem
<cbx33> no one seemes to want to help
<ogra> well, be a bit more noisy ...
<LaserJock> even the Ubuntu/Kubuntu people?
<ogra> blog it, mail ubuntu-art
<cbx33> I was wondering if we, as well as having our main wallpapers, what about having a community competition?
<cbx33> where kids can submit artwork?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> art.ubuntu.com should be the place
<cbx33> okie
<cbx33> I will blog about it
<AliasVegas_> we have mailed the ubuntu/kubuntu mailing list a couple of times
<AliasVegas_> but they didn't give much response
<cbx33> indeed
<ogra> hmm, right ...
<cbx33> I was a little suprised
<cbx33> so....a big call for all artists
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> we will blog/mail/shout
<LaserJock> probably with some direction in mind
<ogra> EDUBUNTU NEEDS YOU !
<cbx33> we're working on our mailing strategy
<cbx33> that's why I wanted to collect feedback
<cbx33> so any feedback from here?
<cbx33> before I open it up to the world?
<ajmitch> ogra: I don't think you'd want any artwork of mine
<LaserJock> I thought the Edgy artwork was nice, it was too saturated at first
<ogra> the general feedback i got was "way to orange" oh, the "dutch release" and "thats a bit to saturated"
<LaserJock> however, it didn't go with the glossy thing that Ubuntu/Kubuntu did
<ogra> i personally like the current theme
<ogra> (still using it everywhere here)
<LaserJock> haha, the dutch release
<LaserJock> I love it
<cbx33> :S
<ogra> even though i have ot admit i agree about the saturation wrt usplash
<cbx33> heh
<cbx33> sorry my fault there ;)
<ogra> and it has many probs on ppc and amd63
<cbx33> I took the work AliasVegas_ had done
<ogra> (amd64 as well :P )
<cbx33> wow amd63 ;)
<cbx33> but that's in general surely
<cbx33> not just us?
<ogra> well, right, but ppc has specific probs with our colorfullness it seems
<cbx33> oh
<ogra> ubuntu and kubuntu seem to be fine there
<cbx33> oh dear
<cbx33> so ogra putting you on the spot specifically...whre would you like to see the artwork moving in the next release?
<ogra> stay as consistent all over the place as it is now ...
<ogra> look more mature all over
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> (dont forget we want to reflect our growth in the artwork ;) )
<cbx33> I know
<cbx33> we have a few ideas
<ogra> great !
<cbx33> but really want to get some community inolvement in here
<ogra> yeah, we'll need that
<cbx33> do we have any connections with any institutions using edubuntu
<cbx33> can we call on them to see if anyone is interested in art
<cbx33> I mean, it's not as techie as other dev stuff
<LaserJock> to be honest people are much better at giving feedback then on creating something from scratch
<ogra> we'll have them in the near future, yes
<cbx33> they don't need bzr or anything like that
<cbx33> just send in a picture
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> under the right license !
<LaserJock> so having a wiki page full of "ideas" and letting people comment is generally good
<cbx33> LaserJock, hmm....well...yes
<cbx33> we had 3 comments on the last one
<cbx33> all we can say is....we will shout
<LaserJock> I don't think it was really put out there though
<cbx33> shout shout
<ogra> if its linked from the EdubuntuTODO page it should get more attention ;)
<cbx33> ok
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> and blogged
<cbx33> we'll do that
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> and given to the Ubuntu art team
<cbx33> and please people talk to others
<cbx33> We'll try to draw up some mails/blogs by the end of the week
<ogra> ok, thats it with art for now i guess ...
<ogra> RichEd isnt here, i dnot know the community status
<ogra> pips1 isnt here to give a website status ...
<ogra> any other stuff we didnt cover yet ?
<cbx33> hmm
<cbx33> I wanted to say a little piece here if I may
<ogra> sure
<cbx33> Today I was voted as chair of the southern technical ICT panel in Southampton UK....which is great....in a way
<cbx33> what was not great at all was at the very mention of "open source" without even mentioning linux or anything else, I got eveils rom at least 2 people in the room
<cbx33> which is just showing that people are gearing up their distrust for OS in my sector of the world
<cbx33> one guy basically said the only good thing about OS was that it kept MS on it's toes
<cbx33> so I'm organising FLOSSMeet 07
<cbx33> so that schools can come and see open source stuff being used
<cbx33> live demos of things like censornet, edubuntu, open office, etc
<cbx33> I'm hoping to spark off more interest
<cbx33> and I'm also applying some of our community models and ideals to the panel
<ogra> sounds great
<cbx33> so ideas on that would be great
<cbx33> I'm hoping to blog about it later to get the word out there
<cbx33> i think that's it
<cbx33> I'm done
<cbx33> phew
<LaserJock> rockin'
<ogra> write the mailing list as well, they both are rown a lot recently ...
<ogra> *grown
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> phew I got a lot of typing to do
<ogra> :)
<ogra> well done :)
<LaserJock> ogra: do you know offhand about how many subscribers there are to the lists?
<ogra> nope
<cbx33> oh yeh, one more thing ;)
<cbx33> I mentioned this before
<ogra> i just noticed a bunch of new subscriptions after the mountainview summit and the poland thing
<cbx33> but the edubuntu-school-support group on LP is growing
<cbx33> I'd like send something out to them
<cbx33> is there a way to send to every member of a group
<cbx33> ?
<LaserJock> nope
<ogra> not afaik, but it might be implemented now, ask in #launchpad
<LaserJock> that was asked during Open Week
<cbx33> oh
<LaserJock> it's in the works (of course)
<cbx33> whoops
<cbx33> ahh ok
<cbx33> :(
<LaserJock> but I don't think it's there yet
<cbx33> oh btw the Jabber server has proved to be a big success a the school
<cbx33> other schools are thinking about rolling it out now
<LaserJock> yeah, that's pretty darn cool
<cbx33> yeh
<cbx33> I'm going to put together a how to
<cbx33> anyone know if you can join together two jabber servers?
<Burgwork> s2s
<ogra> you should be able to ...
<cbx33> thanks
<cbx33> I'll try that ;)
<ogra> ask \sh, he's a jabber master
<cbx33> ahh excellent
<cbx33> I have a nickname now
<cbx33> UberJab
<cbx33> hehe
<ogra> anyway, are we done with the meeting ?
<cbx33> indeed
<ogra> going once
<cbx33> from my pov anyway
<ogra> anyone who wants to say anything SPEAK NOW !
<ogra> going twice
<ogra> adjourned
<ogra> thanks all
<ogra> was there anything we should do in the EC today ?
<cbx33> hehe
<ogra> no candidates etc
<ogra> we'll need a new EC memeber, but i'd like to sort jeromes leave from the tema with the CC first
<ogra> *team
<ogra> i'll mail the list if thats done ... and ask for suggestions for a new member
<cbx33> ok
<LaserJock> sounds good
<ogra> oki, i'm off then ... 12h are enough for one day :)
<LaserJock> yep
<ajmitch> bye ogra
<ogra> ciao
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-07
<Burgwork> http://plugment.net/2006/12/02/setting-up-an-edubuntu-thin-client-network-in-a-community-school/
<Phoenix7477> neat :)
<pitti> hi
<_ion> Hi
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<mdz> morning
<heno> morning
<fabbione> morning
<fabbione> mdz: i did send my update to the mailing list.. is there anything we need to talk about? otherwise i will be happy to go back in bed
<Keybuk> morning
<mdz> fabbione: if you are unwell then by all means go back to bed
<fabbione> i still have some fever i would like to get rid of
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> mdz: if something comes up just mail me and i will look it up
* fabbione takes off again
<seb128> morning
<mdz> morning seb128
<Riddell> morning
<dholbach> hey mvo
* dholbach hugs mvo as if he hadn't seen him in 10 years ;-)
<mdz> cjwatson,doko,Mithrandir,sfllaw,iwj,kylem: ping
<cjwatson> here
<sfllaw> pong
* mvo yawns
<sfllaw> It's early here too.
<sfllaw> 3:00.
* pitti hugs the gang
<ajmitch> a sane time for me, and I'm not needed :)
* dholbach saw doko in #ubuntu-devel already
* pitti hugs slomo
* sfllaw hugs pitti.
* ajmitch hugs pitti 
* BenC hugs the channel
<mdz> BenC: is kylem inbound?
<BenC> mdz: Pinged him, but no reply...he was aware it was 3am...
<sfllaw> mdz: Can I go early while I'm still mostly conscious?
<BenC> I know he was on not too long ago
<doko> mdz:pong
<sfllaw> Shall we call Kyle?
<sfllaw> I can send him an SMS or something.
<mdz> sfllaw: if you're asking to deliver an update and then leave, then that does miss the point of attending the meeting
<sfllaw> No no no.
<mdz> cjwatson: heard from iwj?
<mdz> ah, there he is
<cjwatson> four lines up, yes :)
<sfllaw> I just want to answer questions whlie still being reasonably cogent.
<BenC> mdz: for a change, I'd like to be moved later so I can finish some details on my report :)
<mdz> can someone chase up Mithrandir?
* pitti phones Mith
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> cjwatson: you're first up
* sfllaw phones up kylem.
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<pitti> Tollef will arrive any minute
<cjwatson> setup-console-under-usplash: Bug 73955 appears to be graphics-card-specific and probably something wrong either in the kernel or in X. I think I've narrowed it down to one ioctl. Help?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 73955 in console-setup "Clobbered X screen state during installation" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73955
<cjwatson> increase-hwdb-participation: pitti, did you get a chance to look at this?
<cjwatson> ubiquity-more-user-info: Punted to admin RT last night.
<cjwatson> scalable-installation-testing: Provided some feedback on this with my installer hat on, as promised last week.
<cjwatson> misc: Herd 1 help; installer now basically works modulo a few glitches. Ported ubiquity to the new partman-auto today, which gets rid of one of the autopartitioning pages on multiple-disk systems. Spent some time trying to cram ext2 resize_inode support into libparted so that we can resize the type of filesystem we now create by default (!), but not finished yet. Made a start on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerDevelopment (co
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, I did; I have a small snippet in my report about hwdb
<cjwatson> next-week: Finish first cut at InstallerDevelopment and start pushing for community involvement in installer work. Get back to ubiquity-advanced-partitioner.
<cjwatson> er ... /misc/s/today/yesterday/. Yay relativity.
<mdz> cjwatson: since you've already got one item in RT, would you mind taking responsibility for chasing devel-list?
<cjwatson> pitti: ok, we'll get back to it theen
<cjwatson> then
<cjwatson> mdz: righto
<mdz> I emailed about it last week but haven't heard back
<mdz> I'll forward a copy of the email
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I have playing with setup-console on my todo list
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> Keybuk: does it break for you?
<mdz> cjwatson: looks like one of your lines was truncated?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it has done
<cjwatson> misc: Herd 1 help; installer now basically works modulo a few glitches. Ported ubiquity to the new partman-auto today, which gets rid of one of the autopartitioning pages on multiple-disk systems.
<cjwatson> Spent some time trying to cram ext2 resize_inode support into libparted so that we can resize the type of filesystem we now create by default (!), but not finished yet. Made a start on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerDevelopment (comments welcome).
<mdz> oh, barely ;-)
<cjwatson> I thought 445 characters would fit but maybe not
<mdz> Keybuk: could you help cjwatson by reviewing InstallerDevelopment?
<Keybuk> of course
<mdz> thank you
<cjwatson> I know it needs more detail but I don't have perspective to know where
<Mithrandir> (pong; sorry; my laptop refused to associate with my wireless and my KDC refused to speak with me (and my dog ate my homework))
<mdz> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<mdz> heno: next
<dholbach> Mithrandir: hehe :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: so long as it didn't eat your status report also ;-)
<heno> DONE:
<heno> * access-gdm: Worked with artist on new High Contrast GDM theme. Discussions with GDM maintainer and MacSlow about accessible login.
<heno> * common-at-conf: mock-ups of new config interface. Discussions with Gnome AT community. http://people.ubuntu.com/~henrik/images/flexi-at-conf-2.png
<heno> * multilingual-speech: Decided on how to support eSpeak in Orca (write a gnome-speech driver for eSpeak). Planing a community initiative to create more/improve local language voices for eSpeak. Worked on the Norwegian voice files to learn the ropes and define the process.
<heno> TODO:
<heno> * access-gdm: Work out details on how to make GDM/Facebrowser accessible _without_ using AT-SPI.
<heno> * color-filters: Investigate UI requirements for controlling colour filters in gnome-mag.
<heno> * multilingual-speech: Complete design of the voice creation process and launch the localisation project.
<heno> * General a11y testing: It seems bug 74249 has just been resolved, alowing testing with AT-SPI to proceed
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74249 in at-spi "Bug when we start Feisty : trouble with at-spi" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74249
<mdz> heno: weren't there a few bits of edgy a11y specs which didn't quite make the cut?
<mdz> are those being carried over or abandoned?
<heno> like the sudo atspi spec, that is being folded in now
<heno> other thinks like spoken boot have a very low priority
<heno> a very small user group and would need to be done by Luke if he wants it
<dholbach> heno: for sudo atspi, I'm going to subscribe the ubuntu-a11y-devel list to the upstream bugs we're having currently
<cjwatson> wg 21
<heno> sometimes things also just turn out not to be a good idea
<cjwatson> (argh)
<seb128> gdm upstream just made that change:
<seb128> "Now all GDM GUI's are run as the gdm user.  This change ensures
<seb128>   that all GDM GUI's can talk to the at-spi-registryd that is
<seb128>   running.  This change involved making the forked slave talk
<seb128>   to the the GDM daemon so that the dialogs can be displayed."
<seb128> not sure if that's revelant
<mdz> heno: indeed, just checking. we'll review in more detail on the phone
<seb128> just mentioning it
<heno> seb128: right, I wonder how well that will work in reality
<mdz> seb128: sounds better than running as root
<mdz> heno: ok, thanks
<heno> mdz: good I'll look back at the old specs
<mdz> mvo: next?
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> * work on the AutomaticUpgradeTesting
<mvo> * LSB meeting/packaging sumit Berlin (Mo-We):
<mvo>   gave two presentations
<mvo> * apt work:
<mvo>   - fix crash in pkgSrcRecords::Binaries
<mvo>   - fix bug in pdiff method
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - look at the AdeptFeistyChanges spec
<mvo> - merges
<mvo> - work on CommonCustomizations
<mvo> - catchup on the BUGS
<mdz> mvo: is dynamic-mirror-decisions sorted now?
<mvo> mdz: sorted in what way? its approved and there is a step-by-step plan in the wiki and its approved :)
* mvo should have more tea ... writting approved twice
<mdz> mvo: anything interesting at the summit? an email summary to distro-team would be appreciated
<mdz> mvo: I mean incorporating the changes I requested via email
<mdz> (just rescoping a bit)
<doko> mvo: please drop notices when merging packages not assigned to you (generally it's welcome, but duplicating work is not)
<mdz> oh, I may have sent that after you had left for the day
<mvo> mdz: the sumit was intessting, especially the lsb packaging discussion
<mvo> I will send a mail
<mvo> mdz: I'm not aware of the mail, but haven't looked through my inbox this morning
<mvo> doko: sorry
<mdz> mvo: ok, thanks. shouldn't need substantial changes just reshuffling a bit
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mvo> thanks
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> misc: herd 1 release, archive administration
<Mithrandir> network-roaming: some discussion with pitti about how it interacts with his zeroconf spec; no real progress
<Mithrandir> changelog-closes-bugs: trying to convince Debian that our approach is sensible, but no other progress
<Mithrandir> grub2: installed and played with grub2, it seems to work, but its hook scripts requires a bit of work.
<Mithrandir> next week: more archive admin, update to new network-manager and do our changes there (per network-roaming)
<Mithrandir> (oh, and I need to actually add the herd dates I discussed with Colin on the release schedule)
<Keybuk> what do Debian want us to do instead?
<mdz> Mithrandir: do you have a target date for herd CD 2?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: Guillem seems to want one syntax which is common to all cases.
<Mithrandir> mdz: two week from now.
<mdz> Mithrandir: please add it to the wiki schedule. I see there's a milestone in launchpad already
<Mithrandir> mdz: at least I think so.  That is, it will probably be after xmas since I'm going on vacation on the 19th
<Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, I added the milestone so jbailey can target certification bugs to it
<pitti> OMG, another herd in two weeks? that seems to consume an enormous time of work
<mdz> Mithrandir: is that testing happening now?
<seb128> and again the same week as a new GNOME
<Mithrandir> mdz: I've requested it, I just got in, so I'm not sure if it has actually happened yet.
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'll follow that up with Jeff/cr3
<mdz> seb128: sounds like you and Mithrandir should chat about the timing
<seb128> yep
<mdz> pitti: the first one is surely the hardest
<pitti> although, in two weeks it's almost christmas and few people will be there for testing etc.
<mdz> and it will be >2 weeks from the sound of it
<cjwatson> AIUI we're going for 3 weeks normally but that collides with Christmas this time
<Mithrandir> pitti: hence it might very well end up being the first week of January instead.
<pitti> Mithrandir: right
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: yeah, and we need to fudge around that somehow.
<cjwatson> this one was hard because we froze too early; the installer wasn't ready yet.
<cjwatson> note for future Foo 1s
<Mithrandir> it's always hard to know when to freeze; much easier to see the sweet spot in retrospect.
<mdz> and easier to judge when we have a todo list for next time, thanks cjwatson
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
<mdz> sfllaw: next
<sfllaw> ...
<sfllaw> Lost paste.
<mdz> sfllaw: will come back to you
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done:
<Riddell>  * holiday
<Riddell>  * Herd testing
<Riddell>  * SRUs, universe merges, language pack testing, other odd bits
<Riddell>  * kubuntu-feisty-language-selector: Qt 4 port done, usability changes half way
<Riddell> todo:
<Riddell>  * finnish kubuntu-feisty-language-selector, start kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity qt4 port
* BenC hands sfllaw some elmer's glue
<Riddell> specs:
<Riddell>  * kubuntu-ubiquity-migration-assistant and kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes needing approval, cjwatson and mvo pinged
<Riddell> other:
<Riddell>  * no idea what's happening with artists, sabdfl not replying
<mdz> I have a call with sabdfl in <10 hours, will chase him on artwork
<cjwatson> k-u-m-a is on my queue
<Riddell> great
<mdz> Riddell: what's the question you have for him?
<cjwatson> (still)
<Riddell> mdz: if nuno and/or ken will get contracts to do artwork for feisty (as seemed to be suggested at UDS)
<mdz> Riddell: universe merges?
<mvo> Riddell: is your language-selector branch on launchpad?
<Riddell> mdz: the ones with my name on them, they all turned out to be syncs
<Riddell> mvo: yes, branch is called kubuntu-feisty-language-selector
<mvo> thanks
<mdz> Riddell: is main all merged up now for KDE?
<Riddell> mdz: I need to check back on some stuff adept that was blocking on cmake being in main, but everything else was done before the herd freeze
<mdz> Riddell: ok, thanks
<mdz> sfllaw: ready?
<pitti> ah, yeah, I need to do a MIR session
<sfllaw> Done
<sfllaw>  * Decided on two interns, doing the paperwork for that
<sfllaw>  * Interviewed another intern
<sfllaw>  * More SRU approvals: Kopete
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * E-mail testers who volunteered to help with Herd 1.
<sfllaw> To do
<sfllaw>  * SRU: mdadm (bug 74346)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74346 in mdadm "[edgy sru]  multiple mdadm fixes" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74346
<sfllaw>  * Get computers for interns
<sfllaw>  * Get interns to sign paperwork
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Wiki documentation for Ubuntu QA
<sfllaw>  * UbuntuHugDay to get people signed into Ubuntu QA.
<sfllaw> Blockers:
<sfllaw>  * synaptic is not ready for -proposed (bug 65553, bug 67146)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65553 in synaptic "Synaptic Crashes when changing fonts" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65553
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67146 in synaptic "synaptic pinning/locking does not work" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67146
<cjwatson> cmake's in main now
<mdz> cjwatson: yeah, needs merging according to MOM
<Riddell> cjwatson: I saw, thanks
<mvo> sfllaw: I uploaded the two synaptic fixes to -proposed some time ago?
<cjwatson> SRU suggestion: Simon mails ubuntu-archive@lists when verification is done?
<sfllaw> mvo: I think cjwatson rejected them.
<cjwatson> just off the top of my head, but might smooth the process to -updates
<mvo> right, that was even more time ago, I uploaded another one
<sfllaw> If you think it will help, I can do that.
<mdz> sfllaw: what kind of hours are the interns putting in?  I assume you'll work from the office with them?
<sfllaw> Standard 9-5.
<sfllaw> Monday-Wednesday.
<cjwatson> sfllaw: no, they're still there
<sfllaw> 15 Jan to 2 May.
<cjwatson>   113267 | S- | synaptic             | 0.57.11ubuntu12.1    | five weeks
<cjwatson>          | * synaptic/0.57.11ubuntu12.1 Component: main Section: admin
<cjwatson>   137106 | S- | synaptic             | 0.57.11ubuntu12.1    | nine days
<cjwatson>          | * synaptic/0.57.11ubuntu12.1 Component: main Section: admin
<cjwatson> we need to reject one of those, yes :)
<sfllaw> cjwatson: Can you and mvo work it out?
<cjwatson> yes
<mdz> sfllaw: do you have tasks planned for them?  both bug triage and CD image testing seem like good targets
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<mvo> cjwatson: reject the old please (I though it was already rejected)
<cjwatson> mvo: done
<sfllaw> mdz: I've got two of them I'm thinking of doing bug triage and CD image testing.
<sfllaw> mdz: One of them can program (!) so we were thinking of doing those automated test cases you've been bugging cr3 about.
<mvo> cjwatson: thanks, if you could accept/review the other one soon, that would be great :)
<cjwatson> open in my browser now
<mdz> sounds like they'll miss herd 2, but you should have time to train them for herd 3
<sfllaw> They seem bright, so they should pick it up quickly.
* mvo hugs cjwatson
<sfllaw> I've asked jbailey to look into buying hardware so we'll be ready for them come Januaray.
<mdz> sfllaw: please make notes of their questions as they learn and use those to improve the documentation, as it's useful for the community as well
<sfllaw> So I think things can go smoothly, if we are allowed to buy it.
<sfllaw> mdz: I plan on making them update the wiki as they learn things.
<sfllaw> :)
<mdz> or that
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<mdz> kylem: next
<kylem> Done
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       received core-dev status.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       dapper-security kernel: backed out netfilter abi breaking change.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       wrote new patch for above, sent upstream for verification.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       sky2 backport to dapper-updates, edgy-updates.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       tg3 backport to dapper-updates, edgy-updates.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       fix tso support in tg3 backport.
<mdz> firefox and moin hate each other
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       dapper-security, edgy-security uploaded by ben.
<kylem> To do
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       forcedeth backport to dapper-updates, edgy-updates.
<kylem>     *
<kylem>       figure out why my uploads were discarded.
<kylem> erk, why did that paste all wonky.
<sfllaw> kylem: Thanks for responding to EtienneG's support case so quickly.
<sfllaw> kylem: You copy-pasted moin's output.
<sfllaw> kylem: Next time, use the "See raw text" feature.
<pitti> kylem: btw, I didn't see a new dapper kernel upload yet
<kylem> sfllaw, np. ah ok.
<pitti> (in case it got dropped on the way)
<mdz> kylem: those backports are going to -proposed rather than -updates, right?
<pitti> kylem: Rejected: The key (0x7EB792DF191FCD8A) used to sign linux-source-2.6.15_2.6.15-27.50_source.changes wasn't found in the keyring(s).
<kylem> pitti, heh, first i uploaded to upload.ubuntu.com by mistake, the second time i uploaded to security. and never heard back, so benc guessed something was up, i think he'll upload until i get it sorted.
<cjwatson> half-hour reminder: I unfortunately need to skip out at 0905 for the school run, as Benedict needs to be at the church this morning rather than school as usual so my wife can't take him
<kylem> mdz, correct, sorry, the -updates is just the tree name
<mdz> understood, thanks
<cjwatson> -security has separate keyrings, I believe; ping elmo to have those updated
<mdz> pitti: next
<BenC> pitti: I don't think his key is able to do security
<mdz> cjwatson: s/elmo/RT/ surely
<pitti> it should be
<pitti> worked instantly for Kees, but might need check with elmo
<cjwatson> mdz	yeah, modern world
<pitti> anyway, my report:
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * merges for main: almost all done, remaining ones are hairy (apache2: infinity asked me not to merge 2.2 yet, enigmail: we have to permanently fork due to Debian's icedove madness, linux-wlan-ng: Debian has a SVN snapshot instead of stable release, have to evaluate); merge of ia32-libs has been traded with doko in exchange for php5 and gettext
<pitti>  * merges for universe still outstanding, but I only have a few and they look easy (mostly stuff from library transitions)
<pitti>  * zero-configuration-networking: added the 'ipv4ll' ifupdown method, added support for this to gnome-system-tools & friends, taught network-manager to play along with avahi-autoipd; 95% finished, have fun! the only outstanding bits are: ubuntu-meta update to bring avahi-autoipd to ubuntu-desktop, and introducing the desktop notification about a disabled avahi due to an unicast .local domain <- I'd like to discuss how that should look like with
<pitti>  some interested people, anyone?
<pitti>  * gnome-mount: added proper policy check to hal mount backend (prerequisite of starting with mount-all-local-filesystems), discussed security improvements with sjoerd; came to the conclusion that we can't do better than trusting the main hal daemon for information, so there's nothing we can improve further; remaining TODOs: discuss degnomeification with Xubuntu guys, wait for udev-device-mapper to get implemented to get mounting of encrypted d
<pitti> evices right
<pitti>  * no work on other specs, just quickly discussed Malone cloakroom with Bjorn; it's not there yet, thus bug-reporting-tool is blocked for now
<pitti>  * prepared g-s-t/s-t-backends/couple of applets SRU for edgy's gnome-system-tools authentication problem, awaiting approval from mdz
<pitti>  * new dapper/edgy langpacks to -proposed, asked for testing feedback on -translators@; looks good so far
<pitti>  * misc: lots of IRC talks on fresher's day (OpenWeek was great, btw!), CD testing for herd-1
<pitti>  * I looked at increase-hwdb-participation; doesn't look too complicated, I'm just swamped with specs; the notification part is a bit tricky due to the s
<mdz> pitti,*: please note that cjwatson is on point for SRUs
<pitti> ystem wide state, also we need to put it into some gnome package to get the i18n infrastructure for free; in fact this problem is very similar to the avahi disabling notification (mvo: I! want! event-notifier! now, now, now! ;-) ); since this isn't a prerequisite of other specs and relatively easy, is it ok to defer this a little towards end of January?
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * finish remaining bits of zero-configuration-networking implementation
<pitti>  * finish mount-all-local-filesystems
<pitti>  * next Tuesday: dapper/edgy langpacks to -updates if all goes well
<pitti>  * change dapper's and edgy's ~/.xsession-errors rotation handling to new plan of mdz (I'd like to discuss this again interactively, I don't really like that solution)
<mdz> I'm not processing them directly atm
<pitti> mdz: oh, alright
<pitti> cjwatson: I added ubuntu-sru to the bug report, is that enough or should I rather mail you directly?
<cjwatson> pitti: increase-hwdb-participation> I'm mostly just looking for somebody to assign it to :-) I don't mind when you schedule it provided that you can fit it in somewhere
<cjwatson> ubuntu-sru's perfect
<pitti> ok
<Riddell> cjwatson: katapult has a patch waiting for sru btw
<cjwatson> I can't use my own +subscribedbugs as a to-do list because it's too big, but I can use ubuntu-sru's
<cjwatson> Riddell: noted
<mdz> pitti: the zero-conf-net stuff isn't dependent on network-manager, right?
<pitti> I can certainly fit it in until January, but only at the expense of cutting down on another spec
<pitti> mdz: no, it isn't
<pitti> I'm done with n-m for zeroconf now
<mdz> but they are compatible now
<pitti> and the patch wasn't really intrusive
<mdz> pitti: we have a commitment from kiko to deliver the cloakroom by early January
<pitti> mdz: right, n-m has its own implementation of ipv4ll address assignment, I needed to disable that
<mdz> pitti: that should leave enough time to complete it for feature freeze, yes?
<cjwatson> pitti: I missed your SRU because you set it to fix-committed; please leave it as in-progress at most until the -proposed upload has been accepted
<pitti> mdz: yes, I hope so; and I can start early with the GUI side
<cjwatson> s/you/somebody/
<mdz> pitti: ok, yes, please block only as much as necessary
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, ok; still learning the optimal workflow
<mdz> the SRU wiki page has been updated a bit
<seb128> pitti: bug status are documented on the wiki page now
<cjwatson> we've been tuning the SRU workflow as we go
<mdz> cjwatson: maybe worth emailing a summary of the diff to -devel-announce
<mdz> now or once it stabilizes, or both
<cjwatson> will do
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> BenC: next
<pitti> mdz: wrt ~/.xsession-errors handling, can we have a quick discussion at the end?
<mdz> pitti: with the team, or just me?
<pitti> with the team preferably, to collect opinions
<BenC> :: Specs
<BenC> * driver-device-manager: Had phone converstation with Keybuk to discuss the kernel/udev interface for this. Have started coding the kernel changes needed. Once that is in place, the actual UI implementation can be finished.
<BenC> * driver-backports: Still in pending approval (poke mdz), but work has begun. Some of the features for this depends on the udev/kernel work for driver-device-manager (driver preference).
<BenC> :: Kernel Work
<BenC> * Started syncing for 2.6.20. So far merges have gone fairly well. Kernel is compiling for all architectures.
<BenC> * Debugging ata_piix regression on ich6 variants.
<BenC> * Also noticed a soft-lockup on a P4 system. Debugging is slow due to nature of bug.
<BenC> * Relocation of Ubuntu kernel git repo's to a single kernel-team accessible location on rookery. This will eventually be expanded to a public repository, complete with git-web access.
<BenC> * Intel enabling (paperwork only)
<BenC> :: Work for next week
<BenC> * Main priority right now is getting 2.6.20 pre kernel into feisty.
<BenC> * Once kernel is uploaded, move all 2.6.19 bugs to linux-source-2.6.20 and ping for revalidation.
<BenC> * Fix kernel regression with gdb attaching to PID's.
<BenC> * Still have a few merges to take care of, but I need the kernel to settle down before I start mucking with the tools that build it.
<mdz> BenC: I had a quick look at driver-backports and it needs more detail; iirc we had agreed on the specifics and they just need to be written down
<Keybuk> BenC: I'm happy to trial any kernel patches you have -- as I'll need to do the udev changes
<mdz> BenC: e.g. the placement of the modules and that arrangements will be made to prefer the backported ones
<BenC> mdz: Ok, will get that done tomorrow
<mdz> BenC: does driver-device-manager overlap with the work we discussed to allow for new PCI IDs to be added in userspace?
<BenC> mdz: Yeah
<BenC> it oerlaps for PCI id's and driver preference (like for driver-backports)
<pitti> BenC: I need your help with apport-improvements (the core_pattern pipe fix and the core PAM limit); is it possible to cram that into your schedule?
<mdz> oh, should probably be linked from driver-backports then
<BenC> pitti: Sure, ping me sometime in the next couple of days, I'll make time
<Keybuk> mdz: we have a master plan that allows us to fix several problems with one hefty stone
<pitti> BenC: great, thanks
<BenC> s/master plan/plan to take over the world/
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, I'm interested in the details via email later
<mdz> BenC: thanks
<mdz> seb128: nexkt
<seb128> Done:
<seb128> * GNOME 2.17.3
<seb128> * merged GNOME packages with Debian while updating them
<seb128> * bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128> * contacted tracker upstream about package for Ubuntu, somebody is working on it for Debian and has a first set of packages available, waiting on 0.5.3 to fix some copyright issues before uploading
<seb128> * tested desktop CD candidate for herd1
<seb128> * caught up with mails backlog
<seb128> .
<seb128> Next week:
<seb128> * bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128> * get tracker uploaded
<seb128> * keep doing merges with Debian
<seb128> .
<seb128> Note:
<seb128> * The one week freeze has been annoying to work with, especially because "apt-get source" gives outdated packages during a freeze (somebody might have already done work on the same package and you doesn't get that version), could we freeze binaries instead of sources or make sources available from somewhere during a freeze?
<mdz> seb128: just the few merges listed on MOM remaining for main?
<seb128> yep
<seb128> cairo is blocked on directfb (BenC should do it)
<mdz> seb128: any leads on that bug we were chasing yesterday with gnome-session?
<mdz> bug(s) that is
<seb128> not yet, I've been sleeping mostly since
<cjwatson> I'd be happy with the UNAPPROVED queue being fetchable by people on the team who can upload to it
<mdz> seb128: you mean you stop when you sleep? ;-)
<cjwatson> unfortunately Soyuz can't do queue fetching through the web UI at all yet
<seb128> mdz: euh .. that's it ;)
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: as part of development freezes, we could rsync it somewhere and run apt-ftparchive over it?
<Mithrandir> like, rookery.
<Mithrandir> as a workaround.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: would be fine by me. Care to hack it up?
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: will do.
<mdz> seb128: freezing binaries only sounds interesting, but presumably would require LP implementation work
<pitti> that would rock indeed
<mdz> Keybuk: can MOM pay attention to unapproved as well?
<pitti> I think an apt-ftparchive'd unapproved deb-src queue would be enough for most purposes, at least for me
<Keybuk> mdz: provided there's an APT archive for it, sure
<pitti> seb128: ^ what do you think?
<seb128> I would like to get builds keep going if possible
<Mithrandir> pitti: given that unapproved doesn't have binaries, just sources, it'd be a sources-only thing, yes.
<seb128> that would avoid having a massive building of everything after unfreezing
<mdz> seb128: I think that would need to be implemented in soyuz
<cjwatson> it would, and it's tricky from an archive admin point of view too
<seb128> but having sources available would be a really good start
<mdz> seb128: have a chat with infinity about it and see, but I think it will be a long way off
<cjwatson> easier to let through sources in one go than binaries (which arrive in dribs and drabs over time)
<seb128> that would avoid conflicting on work
<seb128> mdz: ok
<Mithrandir> Mark has spoken about being able to do short-lived pockets or branches or writable snapshots or what you'd call it to ease this pain, but we won't see it in the near future, I believe.
<mdz> seb128: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> Done:
<dholbach>  * GNOME 2.17.3 (most of it)
<dholbach>  * merges
<dholbach>  * trying to catch up with bugs
<dholbach>  * art-builder-improvements: deployed and announced art-builder (half way through high-prio items)
<dholbach>  * feisty-telepathy: no efforts from the team on landell and teletpathy-wildy yet, seems I have to do it myself
<dholbach>  * some motu mentoring
<dholbach> Todo:
<dholbach>  * trying harder to catch up with bugs
<dholbach>  * more merges
<dholbach>  * fix some issues with the art builder
<dholbach>  * motu documentation clean up, organisation
<dholbach> 
<sfllaw> dholbach: Your MOTU/SRC work has been good.
<seb128> dholbach: "most of it", heh, I did some too :p
* sfllaw hugs dholbach.
<mdz> dholbach: anyone using the art builder now?
<mdz> sfllaw: SRC?
<sfllaw> SRU.
<sfllaw> Sorry.
<mdz> ah
<dholbach> mdz: somebody signed up for the team and needs a helping hand
<dholbach> but that's just one
<dholbach> I'll talk to James Troy about it
<dholbach> sfllaw: I'm don't do the actual work on the motu-sru team - I "just" helped to put the team of people together
<mdz> dholbach: also make sure sabdfl knows it is ready for use, he'll help spread the word
<dholbach> mdz: alrighty
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> iwj: next
<dholbach> seb128: I know you did - I should have said "we're mostly through now - everybody give seb128 a big hand" :-)
<iwj> Done:
<iwj>  udev-lvm: read the code in lvm2 and also got to grips with udev (of which I was previously ignorant).  Installed and broke feisty a few times (mainly by playing with partitions).  Half-done.
<iwj>  GnomeAppInstallCodecs: looked at various packages including codecs etc. so I know where to change things.  This is now blocked on new feature for gst-inspect.
<iwj> Will do next week:
<iwj>  udev-lvm: Finish it off although integration testing will have to wait.
<iwj>  consistent-login-screen: need to read the code and play with gdm et al to make sure there aren't any hidden gotchas
<iwj>  package-dependency-field-breaks: rerun my search for candidates and send an announcement too, to get people to start using it
<iwj>  winmodem-support: read up on what's available and decide what to do for feisty
<iwj> I'm on holiday starting from the 14th and will be back on the 2nd.
<seb128> dholbach: I'm scared by your big hand :p
<iwj> seb128: Do you think you could pass me some contact details for the gstreamer guys ?  I feel a bit out of the loop, having to send mails via you (who are busy) etc.
<mdz> iwj: udev-lvm says Not started in LP
<iwj> Oh, I haven't been setting the implementation status in LP.
<iwj> I should have done that for this meeting.  Sorry.
<seb128> iwj: ups, sorry I didn't reply to your mail yet, I've been catching up with old mails and not looked at new ones yet
<seb128> iwj: #gstreamer guys are responsive and nice usually
<iwj> seb128: Fair enough, thanks.
<iwj> Noted.
<cjwatson> iwj: a reminder to -devel-announce that Breaks is ready for use might not hurt
<mdz> seb128: the guy from UDS who was working on it went on holiday
<mdz> I think he's back around ow
<iwj> cjwatson: Yes, exactly.
<cjwatson> with a description of when one might want to use it
<cjwatson> oh, "send an announcement"
<seb128> mdz: right, I know, you forwarded me that mail ;)
<cjwatson> sorry, I can't read at 9am apparently
<mdz> iwj: please update the status on automated-testing-deployment as well
<seb128> speaking about break, does apt manages it?
<iwj> mdz: Willdo.
<mdz> seb128: and you read it better than I did ;-)
<iwj> seb128: Yes.
<seb128> I used Breaks for the e-d-s update
<seb128> and apt-get -f install was not able to remove the old evolution
<Keybuk> seb128: talking of which, that's stuck on hold for me <g>
<seb128> it was just complaining about the break
<cjwatson> Breaks isn't supposed to cause removal ...
<seb128> hum
<cjwatson> it causes deconfiguration
<seb128> I did dpkg -i new_eds
<seb128> and I was expecting apt-get still working then
<mdz> it should only deconfigure temporarily
<seb128> but it didn't
<iwj> Let's take that offline.
<seb128> ok
<mdz> yes
<mdz> iwj: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<Keybuk> Done:
<Keybuk>  - couple of days holiday
<Keybuk>  - started work on upstart changes needed for feisty
<Keybuk>  - some landscape trialling
<Keybuk> Todo:
<Keybuk>  - pretty much everything else ;)
<Keybuk>  - holiday from 18th thru 2nd (yay using up leave allowance)
<Keybuk> Specs:
<Keybuk>  - udev-device-mapper, udev-evms, udev-mdadm: not started yet, will be much easier to test once some of the upstart bits are in place
<Keybuk>  - slick-boot: Colin's done the console changes, need to test those and make any adjustments necessary
<Keybuk>  - replacement-initscripts: needs upstart changes. which have begun
<Keybuk>  - new-pci-ids: having discussions with Ben about fixing the world to make this possible
<Keybuk>  - accelerated-x: hijacked as discussed with mdz
<Keybuk>  - automake-transition: implemented
<mdz> Keybuk: how much more of slick-boot is feistyable?
<Keybuk> mdz: it's a no-op spec
<mdz> since that's an overview spec iirc, it's not entirely clear how it's targeted
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> it's mostly just "do what we were doing anyway"
<Keybuk> Colin's console-setup changes should be the bulk of it
<mdz> Keybuk: and it's still pending approval; pinged sabdfl?
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah
<Keybuk> tbh, I'm not too worried; the "real" spec is approved <g>
<mdz> ok
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<doko> - ill for two days
<doko> - merges and sync requests for main (mostly finished)
<doko> - openoffice.org for edgy-proposed
<doko> - lsb face to face meeting; the agenda was changed, so I did miss
<doko>   the discussion about python in lsb; joined the discussion about
<doko>   C++ / libstdc++ in LSB.
<doko> - no specific progress on specs, python-roadmap needs to be reviewed again.
<doko> - priority for next week: prepare change to python2.5 as the default
<mdz> cjwatson: that reminds me, what was the story with gnome-btdownload?
<mdz> the seed bzr log seemed to imply that it had an alternative dependency on python2.5, but I didn't see one
<cjwatson> doko: the reason I thought python-support was being dropped on the floor was chiefly that the spec mentions python-central but not python-support (plus what you told me in the lift)
<cjwatson> mdz: that dependency is from bittorrent
<mdz> ah, I see
<cjwatson> mdz: bug 74514 is the story
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74514 in germinate "doesn't handle versioned dependencies" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74514
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> oh, saw that bit, yes
<doko> cjwatson: yeah, I need to be more specific about the implementation as well, therefore I splitted it out
<mdz> but didn't see the corresponding dependency
<mdz> doko: feeling better now?
<doko> mdz: yes, thanks :) still on drugs
<cjwatson> it should go away naturally once we switch to python2.5, although I wouldn't mind taking the opportunity to fix the bug while it's still manifest
<cjwatson> if I feel the urge today I'll poke at it
<mdz> doko: ok, thanks
<mdz> any further status updates?
<cjwatson> have to go now, will read the meeting log when I get back
<mdz> pitti wanted to have a quick discussion about ~/.xsession-errors; if you don't have strong opinions on that and it's late at night for you, you're excused
<sfllaw> Can I ask everyone to put their status updates on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20061207 page?
<sfllaw> Just for summary purposes?
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<pitti> will do
<mdz> pitti: go ahead
<pitti> so, I have a small snippet for that:
<pitti> The issue is about bug 60448; we need to make our handling of ~/.xsession-errors consistent
<pitti> - gdm has always just removed the entire file on login
<pitti> - with kdm/xdm, dapper did never remove/truncate the file, which caused disk space DoS with programs where logging has gone wild
<pitti> - in edgy, we mitigated that by truncating the file to .5 MB on login
<pitti> - mdz proposed to change that fix in edgy to mv the file to .old and rm the .old file, and do the same in dapper; it is more consistant with what we do in /var/log, but my objectio
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 60448 in xinit ".xsession_errors file grows out of control & saturates disk space" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60448
<pitti> n is that this would make the 'full disk' problem worse, not better for the next login attempt (i. e. it takes two logins to clean up)
<BenC> good night everyone
<mdz> if the disk is quite full, then attempting to copy part of the file will fail
<pitti> so we should agree to one strategy of handling the file and implement it consistently across all *dms and releases
<mdz> we rotate all other logs by renaming, and it's nice and simple, so that's my preference
<mdz> rotating it should prevent it from ever filling the disk in the first place
<pitti> the problem in that bug was that someone never really logged out
<mdz> any opinions from the crowd?
<iwj> mdz: No, he means if some program goes mad and spews crap until the disk gets full.
<pitti> so none of this is an actual solution to that, but it should clean up itself with a session restart
<mdz> iwj: in that case, renaming is still OK, since it will clobber .old and free enough space to login
<pitti> I think we can solve the 'disk space for temporary truncated file' problem, if we want to do that
<iwj> I think if the log is too big (whatever that means) then just truncating it is probably fine.
<mdz> I ack that it's sub-optimal that the rotation is not time-limited
<Burgundavia> is there anything of value in .xsession-errors to both to keep it around? it seems mine is filled with noise from various apps, something I know people have complained about in the past
<pitti> syslogd has this nice thing of 'previous msg repeated n times', but hard to do that for ~/.xsession-erors
<pitti> since there is nothing in between to filter
<pitti> I'm actually fine with gdm's behaviour, it causes least clutter
<Mithrandir> Burgundavia: yes.
<pitti> and adding a new file to the user's ~ makes me a bit nervous
<pitti> (adding the .old file)
<Burgundavia> Mithrandir: ok, just wondering (that was comment from the crowd)
<iwj> You need to be able to log in and find out why your last session went west.
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm quite happy with the "grab the last half megabyte of the old one and put that into the new one"
<Mithrandir> (or 100k or whatever)
<pitti> ^ I prefer that, too, it would avoid a new file and clean things up at the next session restart (not just at the 2nd after the next one fails)
<seb128> Burgundavia: new bug-buddy includes recent entries from .xsession-errors to crashes sent
<pitti> and logging in twice wouldn't loose all the previous logs
<pitti> ^ which double-rotation would do
<iwj> If the disk is full then you can't sensibly rewrite the file.
<mdz> pitti: does this also mean that gdm would continue to clobber the file?  it's useful to have the last session for debugging as iwj says
<pitti> iwj: we can if we read the last .5 MB into a variable or a file in /tmp
<Mithrandir> iwj: sure you can.  Read in the last half megabyte, delete the file, write it out again.
<pitti> mdz: the fix for gdm would be to disable the code that rm ~/.xsession-errors
<Mithrandir> iwj: if you don't have half a megabyte of memory to spare at login time, your desktop is going to suck anyway.
<iwj> Mithrandir: I suppose it doesn't have to be reliable :-).
<pitti> reading into a variable drops 0 bytes, but oh well
<mdz> please don't read 500k into a shell variable
<Mithrandir> pitti: sponge ftw.
<pitti> but reading into a file in /tmp should do
<pitti> oh, argh, we don't install separate /home by default
<iwj> I think you should do this truncation to .0 after running savelog, though.
<pitti> so, memory, I guess
<iwj> That way each session gets its own log, etc.
<mdz> pitti: I suggest mailing technical-board; if you can get signoff on the actual code by two TB members, then I concede
<pitti> iwj: too much clutter in the home directory for my taste
<pitti> mdz: oh, I don't think that the current code DTRT
<iwj> You're complaining about clutter in ~ ?  I think you're two decades too late for that, at least ...
<pitti> iwj: rotating logs in ~ is something new, I think
<iwj> We could make a subdir for them if you really want.
<pitti> hm, I don't want to keep you guys from breakfast/sleep any longer, so maybe we should discuss it at -devel@
<mdz> pitti: just clarifying that the implementation needs signoff as well as the design
<pitti> I summarize the various options and their pros/cons
<pitti> mdz: understood
<pitti> ok, thanks for the feedback so far, I'll sumarize on the ML
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Dec 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<BlueT_> @schedule taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 08 Dec 06:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Dec 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Dec 04:00: Technical Board
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 07 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 07 Dec 17:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 10:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 11:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 15:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<nixternal> yay
<Lure> hi
<Lure> hi toma
<Riddell> evening all
<toma> evening all
<nixternal> hmm. i see some unable to fetch with my last apt-get
<mhb> good evening
<nixternal> 4pm here, so i guess it is close enough. evening to you all as well
<Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<raphink> hop
<nixternal> hiya raphink !
<raphink> hi
* nixternal throws raphink some <>< love and joy
<raphink> thanks nixternal M0
<raphink> :)
<nixternal> hehe
<Tonio_> hi all
<Riddell> so, let's get started
<Tonio_> Riddell: just uploaded exiv2 0.12 and upgraded digikam to 0.9-rc2
<Tonio_> fyi ;)
<Riddell> oh groovy, whatever exiv2 is
<Lure> Tonio_: great!
<Tonio_> Riddell: lib required by the latest digikam
<nixternal> lol
<Riddell> Lure: your item
<toma> one sec allee is here
<Lure> Should we upload new kubunut-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty
<raphink> hi allee
<toma> allee: we just started: [23:05:27]  <Lure> Should we upload new kubunut-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty
<Riddell> Lure: I doubt this falls into any of the categories of StableReleaseUpdates
<allee> hi all
<allee> thx for info
<Lure> lots of complaints on kubuntu-users and irc regarding this, so I think it is good canddiates for stable release update
<Riddell> and SRUs seem not to be being processed just now
<Tonio_> Lure: in the meantime, people "know" that edgy is experimental
<Lure> Riddell: it impacts lots of users with what they consider usability constraint, fix is simple and non-risky
<toma> Lure: that means all folders on the / are visible again?
<Lure> toma: yes - already done for feisty
<Tonio_> toma: that's the idea yes
<Riddell> but if you want to try and get it through the process then please do
<toma> Lure: doesn't that undermine the thought of the whole excersise?
<Riddell> toma: we keep .hidden in /media, but users don't actually get pointed to /
<Lure> toma: yes, this was discussed on UDS-MTV and seele convinced us...
<toma> Riddell: ok, i can understand that
<Lure> Riddell: so no objection to try to push it? Then I will prepare bug with reasoning and patch
<Riddell> Lure: yes, I'll support you if you want to try and push that through
<allee> Lure: okay from my side
<raphink> what is the bug with .hidden exactly?
<Lure> raphink: you only see /home and /media on /
<allee> Lure: and /afs ;)
<Riddell> raphink: if you want to open a file in /usr or the like it's hard to find it
<raphink> ok
<toma> (i love it btw)
<raphink> ic
<Lure> raphink: we thought that this is good idea for edgy, but people complain and usability guys do not like it either
<raphink> right
<raphink> and it doesn't break anything to have rollback on it
<Riddell> toma: your item next
<Lure> toma: your topic is next
<toma> okay, well i saw the blog about using poppler in kpdf
<toma> and i wondered if that is still a good thing or not
<jenda> Hello folks
<Riddell> hi jenda
<Tonio_> hello jenda
<Riddell> toma: you'll have a hard time convincing the security team to revert that
<Riddell> maintaining multiple copies of xpdf is just something we don't have time for
<Riddell> and other distros use our poppler patch too
<allee> Riddell: who maintains this fork?
<toma> that was what i wanted to ask
<Riddell> well, Gentoo does at least
<toma> Riddell: did you look at the printing problem?
<Riddell> allee: pitti wrote it, I keep it up to date with new releases
<Riddell> toma: no, I havn't
<allee> ah, okay
<Riddell> although I've never had a problem printing PDFs myself
<Riddell> but it's not something I do much
<Tonio_> toma: I tested quickly today and haven't been able to reproduce.... preview print works here
<toma> thanks all. Okay, lets move on
<Tonio_> Riddell: I think the issue reported concerns the preview, not the printing itself
<toma> easy to test
<Riddell> I should look at it, but it sounds complex
<Riddell> for feisty+1 we'll hopefully be using okular and the problem will go away
<toma> true
<Riddell> mhb: your item
<mhb> Should we include a tool for setting up synaptics-like mice (touchpads etc.) in Kubuntu Feisty? If so, what should be modified in Ksynaptics to make it Kubuntu-friendly?
<Riddell> I have no touchpad, so I don't care :)
<nixternal> haha
<toma> hehe
<mhb> Some of it is answered by the KubuntuFeistyLaptop spec, but Tonio wanted to discuss it anyway
<Tonio_> I think we should remove autolaunch, and replace it by a script
<Tonio_> to start it only if a launchpad is detected
<Tonio_> I have to find a way to detect a touchpad is there
<Riddell> but if it's hidden under Keyboard & Mouse in system settings I don't mind
<Tonio_> should be easy by checking the synaptic module
<Tonio_> Riddell: you would only put it in systemsettings ? I'm fine with this too
<Lure> Tonio_: that was plan (under Keyboard & Mouse)
<Tonio_> I'll do that, and the main inclusion and everything required, no pb
<Riddell> I don't want it sitting in the systray
<Lure> Tonio_: I am just not sure if we can fix auto-start
<allee> AFAIR there also a security subject involved.  Access to some shmem or whatever to apply changes during runtime
<Tonio_> Riddell: bah it will if you start it via systemsettings
<Riddell> oh, that's evil
<Lure> allee: this might complicate main inclusion...
<allee> What is ubuntu doing?
<Tonio_> allee: hum, indeed........
<Tonio_> allee: I need to investigate this, since that'll make the main inclusion impossible
<mhb> allee: I'm not sure that they have something to manage that
<Riddell> allee: nothing as far as I know, everything should all work out the box
<Lure> Riddell: tray icon is ok if we do not auto-start (it is user's choice)
<fabo> mhb: they don't use gsynaptics ?
<Riddell> Lure: if they start it manually sure, but if it starts when you load it in system settings that's evil too
<mhb> fabo: not present on my edgy machine w/ ubuntu-desktop so I guess not in Edgy at least
<Tonio_> Riddell: well some touchpads are not detected correctly, I had the issue on my previous HP laptop
* Riddell not a fan of excessive systray usage
<mhb> mine is not detected correctly, for instance
<Tonio_> Riddell: well I think we can hide the icon, so if that is possible I will force the default via kds
<Riddell> Tonio_: yep, that's why it's ok if it's available, but not getting in the way
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, I see your point
<mhb> I think ksynaptics would also need some UI polishing
<Tonio_> Riddell: I'll investigate the security part and do the implementation
<Tonio_> mhb: definitly, yes, but it is the only available tool afaik
<fabo> Tonio_: atm, xorg need manual editiong no ?
<allee> bit when ksynaptics is only needed in rare circumstances, why put it in main?
<fabo> xorg conf.
<Tonio_> fabo: nope, the synaptic driver has external config files in ~
<allee> fabo: or pull ksyn. from universe
<Riddell> allee: if people need it, we should let them have it
<mhb> allee: well you can fine-tune the touchpad with it
<Tonio_> allee: why ? because I had HARD time to find that
<Tonio_> my first thing when it happened was to check in systemsettings, which makes sense
<Lure> allee: point is to find it in System settings if they have problems
<mhb> Tonio_: same by me
<Tonio_> allee: and it is very little package, mostly hidden deeply in systemsettings, that will not bother joe user
<allee> FWIW: the only real reason we needed something like this was that touchpad and track(?) stick had totally different accerealtions.  and ksynaptics did not help here
<Riddell> speaking of which, we need someone to own the system settings changes in feisty
<Tonio_> Lure: Riddell talking about you :) ^^
<Lure> Tonio_: where? ;-)
<Tonio_> seriously, I am not capable of doing this...
<allee> Tonio_: I've fine with inclusion if pitti is fine with it ;)   But don't forget in 80% here kubuntu runs on desktop not laptop, so if it get's in main it should only run when necessary
<Riddell> allee: absolutely
<Tonio_> allee: absolutly agree
<mhb> allee: yes, Tonio_ mentioned it
<Tonio_> that's why it'll feet silently in systemsettings
<Riddell> let's move on
<Riddell> thanks for taking that up Tonio_
<Riddell> your item
<Tonio_> okay
<Tonio_> I spent the day on opensuse, and I must say I am in love with that kickoff thing
<Tonio_> I would like to give it a try for feisty
<Riddell> (I thought you were engaged to another...)
<toma> Tonio_: screenie?
<Tonio_> Riddell: lmao ^ ;)
<Tonio_> toma: yes just a second
<Lure> Tonio_: I also have opensuse 10.2, but my experience is not that positive with kickoff - but I am fine if it is not default
<toma> http://en.opensuse.org/Kickoff
<Riddell> Tonio_: can it be separated from beagle?
<Tonio_> Riddell: I think yes
<Lure> Tonio_: can it be optional?
<Riddell> I'd like seele's feedback on it, she's been looking into k-menu stuff
<toma> i think a menu with a search bar is bad design
<Tonio_> Lure: on opensuse it is, so I assume yes
<Lure> Tonio_: I hate scroll-bars on it...
<toma> but maybe it is my twisted mind
<Tonio_> Lure: scrollbars ?
<nixternal> Kickoff is cool, however can we replace "My Computer" with something else. That is a little to much Microsoft sounding :)
* Tonio_ doesn't remember scrollbars
<Lure> Tonio_: but it is snappy and good looking, just usability is not polished yet (imho)
<Lure> Tonio_: it is fixed size, so if you have more items you get scroll-bars
<Tonio_> well I jsut said "give a try" ;)
<toma> can we make a package so we can test it ?
<Tonio_> then once we have it in kubuntu we can decide what to do
<toma> or is that a lot of work?
<fabo> Tonio_: have you already checked the code ?
<Tonio_> fabo: I think it is a HUDGE patch to kdebase in fact :)
<Lure> toma: afair, imbrandon said it is all over kdebase/libs patch
<Tonio_> the point is I can do the package, but I would like to be sure everyone agrees on the idea cause it is a lot of work
<fabo> Tonio_: exactly like last time i looked inside ;)
<toma> Lure: hm ok
<Tonio_> that's the point
<Lure> toma: +linked to kerry (beagle)
<Lure> :-(
<Tonio_> Lure: but the patches should be quite easy to maintain in fact
<nixternal> it would be nice to get the Help system to search our doucmentation and what not in there as well. Link the ? to some topic based help love
<Tonio_> just diff the suse branch with official kde one
<Riddell> erk, it's a branch of kdebase http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/suse_kickoff/
<Lure> Tonio_: maybe you should prepare packages in your repo and we can try
<mhb> maybe we should wait on seele's input before starting
<Tonio_> Lure: yes, that's my point
<Tonio_> in fact suse will maintain the branch so it is quite easy for us to maintain the patches
<Tonio_> mhb: kickoff has been designed with kde usability people :)
<Lure> mhb: point - I do not like how some things are done...
<toma> http://home.kde.org/~binner/kickoff/sneak_preview.html
<Lure> Tonio_: I think with suse usability actually ;-)
<Tonio_> Lure: I'm not sure seele has been involved, but some kde people have
<allee> I would really like to give kickoff a try.
<toma> i dont like the behaviour of all programs
<fabo> allee: me too. it could be nice if coolo provide a nice source archive with just kickoff ...
<Tonio_> well I'll do package on my repo so that we can test
<Tonio_> then once we can really test it we can rediscuss this
<Lure> Tonio_: that would be great!
<mhb> I'm not sure if the amount of work is worth it. After all, KDE4 will probably have a new kicker too, won't it?
* Lure hates to reboot in suse to try it out ;-)
<fabo> mhb: raptor
<Tonio_> mhb: I wonder if kickoff will or not bethe kde4 default, or at least used as a base
<Tonio_> Riddell: wasn't that discussed at akademy ?
<Riddell> kde 4 will (should) have plasma, no kicker at all
<Tonio_> Riddell: okay
<Riddell> so we'd all love to see packages of kickoff, but if it's a branch of kdebase I'm not sure how possible that is
<toma> im still curious how that will work out
<Tonio_> Riddell: I'll look at how suse implemented it
<toma> (no kicker)
<Tonio_> toma: no kicker doesn't mean no start menu :)
<allee> Tonio_: Maybe we should try a SuSE lifecd first and talk about it in 2 weeks again?
<Tonio_> the "kicker" can be a desktop widget, or something
<Tonio_> allee: please do :)
<toma> yes thats fine by me too
<Lure> allee: Tonio_ typically packages stuff faster they we can download live cd ;-)
<Tonio_> Lure: lol, probably not that time btw ;)
<Riddell> so another one for Tonio_'s TODO list
<Tonio_> Riddell: well, everyone will give a try and I'll prepare testing packages, we can go next item
<Riddell> nixternal's item
<toma> hi fdoving
<nixternal> The Ubuntu Documentation Team is currently working ona  Topic Based Help System
<nixternal> this is good, as it allows people to actually find help within our guides by topic
<fdoving> hi toma, sorry i'm late.
<nixternal> the tricky part is this. either use KHelpCenter with a custom front page, or possibly create an application that will read the documentation into a custome Help Center specificaly for Kubuntu
<Lure> nixternal: I have to say that it really looks nice, so I am all for it - not sure how easy the intergation would be
<nixternal> as it stands, KHelpCenter isn't getting much love upstream. They want to change it in KDE4 but I don't know if anyone is working on it yet
<nixternal> Lure: ya, the integration is what I am wondering about
<Tonio_> nixternal: shame on you ! the code bugs on konqueror !
<nixternal> the KHelpCenter guys said take the HTML and convert it into a C++ application. that is where I leave that up to devs :)
<raphink> nixternal: or as I suggested, use the custom pages in Konqueror
<nixternal> Tonio_: ya, i will fix that
<Tonio_> nixternal: thanks ;)
<raphink> by providing index.html pages for each section of the doc
<nixternal> but yes, raphink has an idea about using Konqueror to display help and link it with the help:/
<Lure> nixternal: it would be great in KHelpCenter as it is already linked all around (k-menu, keyboard...)
<raphink> I  have begun to look at it
<raphink> for example, if I create a /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/fr/kubuntu/index.html file
<Tonio_> I must say I love the idea
<raphink> it shows up in help:/kubuntu
<raphink> so people can browse the help:/
<nixternal> as it stands, a new user can't find help in our documentation very easily, and we need to fix this
<raphink> we could then compile the index.html files with po files for languages
<raphink> to provide the users whole customized indexes of the doc
<nixternal> that is why mpt suggested the topic based help, and the doc team is currently working on some layouts for it
<raphink> and link the konqueror start page to help:/
<Lure> raphink: right, help:/kubuntu/desktopguide/index.html already works
<Riddell> nixternal: where would the links on the left go to e.g. Multimedia?
<raphink> yes Lure, but help:/ and help:/kubuntu are empty
<raphink> Lure: so we can use them
<nixternal> raphink: the pages will still be built in docbook and then converted to html, so the po files will be generated by us
<raphink> yes
<nixternal> Riddell: they would go to a page that would list common questions users have for that specific topic
<Lure> raphink: but should we then change k-menu Help to point to konqueror help:/ ? (same for keyboard shortcut in kmilo)?
<toma> why the docbook construction? why not link straight to the doc site?
<nixternal> that is an idea
<raphink> there could be a help:/faq for that maybe nixternal
<nixternal> toma: that is the standard the doc team uses, and until they change that
<nixternal> toma: oh, we don't want to link for all questions because not everyone has internet access
<allee> toma: there are still people without permanent internet access, so 'basic docs need to be on disk
<raphink> I'm wondering how KHelpCenter gets the list of help pages
<toma> hmm, a short ping to test it?
<raphink> is it dynamic or generated when the doc is built?
<nixternal> index.html.in file..i looked at KHelpCenter and all I can say is I was lost
<Riddell> raphink: .desktop files
<raphink> right
<raphink> I guess the way the launch.html page is done
<Riddell> and the apps list is just the k-menu
<raphink> half compiled with .cc and half using .desktop files
<toma> nixternal: all i know from the helpcenter is that it is a nightmare...
<raphink> or something of the kind
<Riddell> nixternal: apart from the nice descriptions on the menus at the side this could all be done in khelpcentre
<raphink> toma: it's also very slow, compared to using help:/ in konqueror imo
<nixternal> toma: i agree 100%, that is why the KDE guys are looking to replace it in KDE4
<Riddell> (although whether you want to is another thing)
<nixternal> Riddell: if it can be done, then great
<nixternal> of course we will probably change it anyways in feisty+1 because hopefully kde 4 will have a new topic based help system
<toma> nixternal: okay, so why not use a html and only use it in konqi and skip the docbook construction for helpcenter
<toma> isnt that easier to maintain?
<nixternal> oh toma the page itself that you see in khelpcenter will be done in html, but the links will goto documentation that is built with docbook
<nixternal> sorry
<raphink> toma: the html will have to be generated anyway, at least for translations
<allee> toma: is for html the same i18n infrastructure available as for docbook?
<raphink> toma: and we already have generators from docbook
<toma> raphink: okay
<raphink> nixternal: can you confirm?
<toma> allee: no, only for docbook
<Riddell> nixternal: how does this fit into the plan for the Kubuntu Desktop Guide?
<nixternal> well, Rosetta does html translations as well, see the index.html pages they use in Ubuntu firefox start page
<nixternal> yes raphink i confirm
<nixternal> Riddell: the guide will become topic based, so it will provide more answers to common questions
<nixternal> as well as updated information on the applications like it currently contains
<nixternal> so, the KDG will become modular in a way, where you can read only the section on Email, or Desktop Customizing, or Multimedia
<Lure> nixternal: multimedia will/did change a lot in feisty
<Lure> nixternal: DG talks about KsCD....
<Riddell> nixternal: so the links on the left in your mockup go to chapters in the KDG?
<nixternal> Lure: so that whole section will be re-written, and plus people will know how to play MP3s and what not as well from it
<Tonio_> Lure: good point....
<nixternal> Riddell: yes
<nixternal> Lure: we will be changing the applications in the DG. it is time for change :)
<Lure> nixternal: ok
<nixternal> Riddell: then each of those chapters will break down into subtopics
<nixternal> those subtopics will list information as well as answers to the common questions users have with Kubuntu
<nixternal> also, KHelpCenter doesn't search worth a darn
<nixternal> as it stands, it only searches man pages
<Riddell> nixternal: all sounds great, it just needs a front page along the lines of your mockup and careful which docbook <sectX> level you use to make sure things end up on the same or separate pages as desired
<Riddell> and it can be in khelpcentre, but maybe about:konq should just point to the HTML direct
<nixternal> Riddell: that is the plan, each topic will be seperate to avoid confusion
<Riddell> rocking, go for it
<nixternal> woohoo!!!
<Riddell> is robotgeek active in docs still?
<nixternal> i will be working with upstream for kde4 and topic based help as well...so maybe i can learn some more
<Riddell> who are you in contact with in KDE?
<nixternal> robotgeek is very much active..he is on a 10 day sabbatical i believe right now
<toma> nixternal: do you have the contacts already?
<nixternal> Philip Rodriguez and Frerich Raabe
<toma> okay
<toma> thats about the complete team ;-(
<nixternal> oh, plus I might be contributing soon to the Dot :)
<allee> nixternal: FWIW don't forget that sometimes it's better to get a print out of the hole handbook , so don't split too much
<nixternal> allee: we will still generate the system docs in PDF form
<allee> nixternal: all in one? Cool
<nixternal> PDFs will be at help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> but yes, PDFs and HTML are currently derived from one docbook file
<allee> nixternal: for all kde apps, i.e. from universe too
<Riddell> and if we get artists for Feisty we can poke them into making a nice help theme
<nixternal> the html will get broken up, but the PDF will stay one solid piece
<allee> nixternal: excellent
<nixternal> allee: I am sure we can through some universe love in as well
<Riddell> ok, onwards
<nixternal> s/through/throw
<Riddell> we have a membership
<nixternal> Riddell: rocking on the artists
<toma> mhb: you're 18?
<mhb> toma: yup
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> wait, im only 12
* gnomefreak still feels old :(
<toma> mhb: can you give a short intro?
<mhb> sure
<Riddell> mhb: got a wiki page and a launchpad page?
<mhb> My name is Martin Bhm and I'm a student from the Czech Republic. I'm a member of the Ubuntu Czech translation team since Dapper and I was recently appointed as the coordinator of this team. I've also made a website about Kubuntu in Czech. At the end of the Edgy development phase I've created a Kubuntu Testers team which will hopefully help with the testing of Feisty Fawn. I also have a small piece of software I'll try to develop for Feisty - th
* Riddell finds https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MartinBhm and https://launchpad.net/people/martin.bohm
<Riddell> mhb: cut off at "for Feisty - th"
<mhb> sorry
<mhb> for Feisty - the GRUB configuration tool. If all goes well and I have a little time left I'll may also help with some less important Rosetta features a bit.
<Riddell> did you manage to bring along any groupies?
<jenda> me, me, me!
<mhb> I hope jenda's not fallen asleep
<nixternal> mhb: im interested, however you have to get jenda to switch first
<jenda> Mind if I copy-paste it? :)
<raphink> what is the GRUB configuration tool exactly?
<jenda> mhb has been doing some amazing work for Ubuntu, but mainly Kubuntu in the Czech Republic, as well as helped resolve local community issues. Most notably translations (currently the translation leader), support and website management.
<raphink> is it a graphical interface to set GRUB?
<mhb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuGrubconfig
<nixternal> Riddell: i can vouge that he has actually helped me out with some stuff in the past converning docs and packaging. i swore he was a member already though
<mhb> raphink: yes, for systemsettings
<raphink> developped as a kcmshell module mhb?
<Tonio_> mhb: guidance extention.... interesting !
<raphink> very nice :)
<gnomefreak> yay a grub for dummies ;)
<Riddell> mhb: have you told me about your kubuntu czech website?  It should be on http://kubuntu.org/support.php
<raphink> mhb: do you consider possible conflicts with grub-updates?
<raphink> grub-update sorry
<mhb> Riddell: well I wait a *long* time for the kubuntu.cz domain name
<Riddell> mhb: that was my next question
<Riddell> mhb: the guy never pointed it to you?
<toma> gnomefreak: the mockup is not very understandable for users...
<fabo> mhb: grub stuff .. is it the work with seele ?
<mhb> Riddell: well it's a bit complicated because someone else (kubuntu.sk) bought the domain name
<mhb> fabo: yes
<fabo> nice
<mhb> Riddell: I don't think there will be any
<Riddell> mhb: I know, but you contacted him right?
<mhb> raphink: ^^
<gnomefreak> toma: its a gui it better than edit /boot/grub/mune.lst from what i can tell as is
<mhb> Riddell: a loong time ago
<mhb> Riddell: even poked jono about it
<toma> gnomefreak: true
* Tonio_ notes that kubuntu-cz.org is available.....
<Riddell> kubuntu.sk looks maintained, mhb: please send me the contact details for the guy and I'll poke him
<mhb> Riddell: sure
<raphink> mhb: has kubuntu testers already been active so far?
<raphink> or will it just begin with feist?
<toma> +1 for me
<raphink> feisty
<mhb> raphink: sadly not much
<allee> mhb: What's the status of Kubuntu testers?  What is planed until feisty is releases?
<mhb> raphink: it was created at the end of the edgy development cycle
<raphink> allee:  ;)
<allee> oh ;)
<mhb> raphink: we hope to eliminate some of the problems with Edgy, for example dist-upgrades
<raphink> how do you mean?
<raphink> you mean dist-upgrade issues?
<mhb> raphink: I some of the people with better bandwidth will start testing dailies
<raphink> ok
<mhb> raphink: yes, we want to point out such issues in advance for Feisty
<allee> mhb: are there something like test a test plan?
<mhb> allee: I'm not sure what you mean
<allee> mhb: something like a checklist and test dataset to verify everythings works
<raphink> mhb: a doc page for testers to follow
<raphink> with points to check
<allee> raphink: :)
<raphink> hehe :)
<Riddell> uwiki:Testing
<Riddell> it's all there
<Riddell> time for votes
<allee> +1
<Riddell> +1 from me
<raphink> well the current test for Kubuntu is 6.06 RC1
<toma> i would like a list which i can use that the laptop i'm delivering to my clients works completely, could be usefull as well ;-)
<raphink> mhm
<raphink> mhb: could be nice to take care of https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Testing/CurrentKubuntu for sure :)
<Riddell> raphink: shouldn't be, we did test the releases of 6.10 I know
<mhb> raphink: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Kubuntu/Current
<Tonio_> +1 for me too
<raphink> then there should be a link
<raphink> +1
<Riddell> sounds like an obsolete page
<Riddell> ooh, a full list of +1s!
<raphink> yes but it's linked from uwiki:Testing
<Riddell> welcome in mhb
<Lure> mhb: welcome!
<mhb> thank you all
<raphink> :)
<jenda> Congratulations mhb :)
<Riddell> any other memberships?
* allee remembers amu worked on a checklist 
<toma> mhb: congrats
<nixternal> CONGRATS mhb!!!
<abattoir> mhb: congrats :)
<allee> mhb: congrats
<toma> hehe
<jenda> mhb is the first Czech Kubuntu member, and in total, the 3rd Ubuntu Member in the Country.
<nixternal> welcome to this crazy family ;p
<mhb> I'm *really* happy :o)
<toma> time to sleep?
<raphink> yes, bed time
<raphink> :)
* jenda pops the chapaigne open for mhb
<nixternal> mhb: your first order of business, switch jenda from Ubuntu to Kubuntu :)
<Lure> nixternal: lol
<toma> Riddell: anything else?
<jenda> nixternal: no way :)
<Riddell> quite a few people have applied for membership
<Riddell> I should e-mail them before the next meeting I suppose
<Lure> Riddell: where?
<Tonio_> toma: don't we discuss your last point ?
<nixternal> on launchpad
<Riddell> Lure: https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-members/+members Proposed members
<toma> Tonio_: that is for meeting+1, i think hobbsee should be here
<toma> Tonio_: but you can think about it ;-)
<Riddell> any other business?
<raphink> zerlinna also told me she thought of applying soon Riddell
<Tonio_> toma: hehe okay ;)
<Tonio_> Riddell: yers !
<nixternal> NOTE:  If anyone has some merges they would like some help with, I am interested in helping out - my Feisty goal is to become a MOTU eventually
<Tonio_> allee: we forgot something !
<Riddell> oh, toma, I patched kdelibs to put a notice in the about box that translations are modified in Rosetta
<Tonio_> Riddell: is there improvement plans for the media:/ patches by sime ?
<Riddell> you might want to look at the string to see if it's clear
<toma> Riddell: o very good
<toma> Riddell: feisty only?
<Riddell> toma: yes
<raphink> nixternal: nice :)
<toma> okay, i'll have a look
<Tonio_> allee: we forgot to add that to the agenda....
<Riddell> Tonio_: not that I know of
<allee> Tonio_: oh,   right.
<Tonio_> Riddell: the problem is that at the current stage, the patches create more problems than they resolve...
<Tonio_> Riddell: I'd be very happy to keep them, but honnestly, they are really alpha stage...
<toma> Tonio_: isnt that the .hidden thingy?
<Tonio_> toma: no it is the media:/ replacement by /media
<Tonio_> Riddell: example of issues :
<Riddell> Tonio_: I guess we need a list of issues and see what sime says about it
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes a wikipage would be good probably
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-08
<Tonio_> Riddell: to be honnest, my current opinion is to keep them if they are improved, and remove them otherwise...
<Tonio_> that's a bit hard, but well...
<Tonio_> allee: your opinion ?
<raphink> I find this .hidden thingy a bit confusing
<allee> I hope that they can be improved, but otherwise ...
<raphink> because you still see the stuff in a console
<Lure> Tonio_: I do not think they are that bad (comapred to old media:/), but we should put issues to the wiki page to get Sime's attention
* allee nods
<Tonio_> raphink: that's removed in feisty
<raphink> but they don't appear in konqueror
<raphink> yes I know Tonio_
<Tonio_> Lure: I don't say they are bad, I say they are alpha stage
<raphink> but I'm just generally wondering about it, since I had not noticed it before
<raphink> because I never go to / in konqueror
<Lure> Tonio_: but then media:/ is pre-alpha ;-)
<Tonio_> Lure: the global rendering of icon names on the desktop for example is horrible for example
<Tonio_> Lure: and try to browse /media with an audiocd....
<Tonio_> there are lots of issues like this
* raphink likes audiocd:/ very much
<yuriy> Tonio_, raphink: yeah that's an annoying one
<raphink> I think audiocd:/ deserves to be better known
<Tonio_> Lure: to me media:/ despite it doesn't work with non-kde apps, is more mature
<raphink> yuriy: why?
<Tonio_> but more limited
<Lure> Tonio_: list issues on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuKDEMedia, or even open bugs
<Tonio_> Lure: sure
<Tonio_> okay we'll fill the bug list and ask sime his plans for feisty
<yuriy> raphink: i meant, how it doesn't work with /media and that's the default now. i like audiocd:/ as well.  not too bad for me since i know about it, but not very discoverable with the patches
<Tonio_> yuriy: well the desktop icon leads to audiocd:/
<raphink> yes yuriy
<Lure> Tonio_: there seem to be three pending patches on the page for audiocd:/
<Tonio_> but the /media/cdrom icon leads to -> empty folder
<Tonio_> that's eveil
<raphink> Tonio_: which imo is good, since it's a really easy way to encode music
<raphink> ala MacOS in a way
<raphink> athough it doesn't allow settings
<Tonio_> Lure: no the're in ;) I just forgot to update the wikipage
<Lure> Tonio_: ok
<yuriy> raphink: the settings for it are in system settings.  would be nice if there was a way to get there right from audiocd:/ though
<raphink> yes
<Tonio_> yuriy: well the ioslave is really slow btw.... nothing compares to k3b for ripping
<raphink> yuriy: well I had not even seen these settings before
<raphink> lol
<raphink> eventhough I have worked on systemsettings in the past
<Tonio_> Riddell: do we plan the next meeting now ?
<allee> One more subject: Is kubuntu-team or the motu team the target team for KDE apps bus in universe.  I've the feeling that quite some bugs, reported quite some time before edgy release were not fixed?
<yuriy> Tonio_: curious if there's a known reason it's slow and if anybody's working on it
<allee> s/bus/bugs/
<raphink> yuriy: I think that kios don't get their own bars and menus as kparts
<Tonio_> yuriy: yes there is one, and no nobody fixes it :)
<Riddell> Tonio_: early next year, but probably best not to set a date yet, we should make sure hobbsee can come
<raphink> which is the problem to access the audio encoding settings from audiocd:/
<Tonio_> yuriy: I think the slowness is relative to cdparanioa or something but I don't remember exactly the point
<Tonio_> Riddell: yep
<Riddell> allee: bugs don't have default targets or assignees
<allee> Riddell: so kubuntu-* has no special eye on kde universe bugs?
<Riddell> allee: kubuntu-team is subscribed to the important KDE packages in main
<Riddell> that's what feeds the kubuntu-bugs list
<allee> I know
<Riddell> but subscribing all the universe packages too would give a flood I fear
<raphink> and our mailboxes eventually :)
<Riddell> I like having kubuntu-bugs able to come into my main inbox
<allee> Any simple way to lookup bugs of KDE apps in universe?
<raphink> it would be very useful if launchpad supported debtags
<toma> allee: every book i look at has you as a subscriber....
<Riddell> allee: you're right, there isn't one, you could create a (dummy) team to subscribe them all to
<toma> s/book/bug/
<Riddell> raphink: why?
<raphink> Riddell: so we could check bugs by tag
<Riddell> mm, that would be nice
<raphink> just a thought
<raphink> from 00:25
<raphink> my brain is almost off anyway
<raphink> lol
<Riddell> however no comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/products/soyuz/+bug/57418 so I doubt it'll happen
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 57418 in soyuz "Support debtags in Packages.gz" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<allee> Riddell: kubunt-universe-team or kubuntu-dummy-team ? ;)
<yuriy> raphink: I was thinking that maybe a shortcut to the settings could be put in as an icon in the kio.
<Riddell> especially since the size of the soyuz team is only margionally above 0
<raphink> debtags in Packages.gz ??
<toma> are there any complications for feisty now that debian is making a release?
<raphink> yuriy: that would be confusing imo
<Riddell> allee: kubunt-universe-team is nice
<raphink> yuriy: audiocd:/ already displays virtual folders and files
<Riddell> toma: don't think so, means they'll be slower at packaging some stuff for a while
<raphink> adding files that link to setting dialogs would be highly confusing imo
<toma> Riddell: syncs will dry out soon
<allee> okay, I'll look into it.  Never tried who it works to look at bugs from the team perspective
<Riddell> thanks allee
<Riddell> ok, I think we're done
<raphink> right
<toma> nite!
<raphink> gn
<mhb> goodnight all and thank you!
<Riddell> thanks all
<allee> nite
<raphink> bye
<fabo> nite
<Riddell> oh, if anyone wants to sort out the meeting wiki page and make quick minutes they're very welcome to
<Lure> nite all
<Tonio_> Riddell: will do since nobody looks interested... :)
<Riddell> Tonio_: if you could add a couple of sentences on what we discussed and the good news of mhb on the next UWN that would be super
<Tonio_> Riddell: yeah that's the plan :)
<Tonio_> Riddell: will do that but probably tomorrow, it is late here :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 15:00 UTC: Loco Team | 12 Dec 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Dec 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<lfittl> @schedule Vienna
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
<Phoenix7477> @schedule edmonton
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Edmonton: 12 Dec 08:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 09:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 05:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 13:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu
<rejden> @schedule Vienna
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
<Burgwork> @schedule vancouver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Vancouver: 12 Dec 07:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 08:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 12:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-09
<mruiz> ping Seveas
* dabaR joins the meeting
<_ion> Thanks for telling. I hope IRC clients get a feature that automatically informs the user when people join a channel.
<raphink> @Paris
<tonyyarusso> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 12 Dec 16:00: Loco Team | 12 Dec 17:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Dec 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Dec 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Dec 21:00: Edubuntu
<raphink> thanks tonyyarusso
<raphink> I was searching for the syntax :)
<tonyyarusso> :)
<sid> _ion: basically all irc clients have this feature.
* tonyyarusso points sid to "sarcasm" in Webster's
<Hawkwind> sid: He was being sarcastic
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-10
<mruiz> ping nixternal
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Care to declare the agenda for reference?  (yeah, it's in the e-mail, but hey)
<Burgundavia> yep, in a sec
<tonyyarusso> 'k
<lifeless> meetings on a sunday ?
<lifeless> dedication
<tonyyarusso> lifeless: Saturday here
<lifeless> which meeting ?
<Madpilot> Ubuntu Canada
<lifeless> cool
<lifeless> if not freezing :)
<dennister> howdy felow canucks
<Burgundavia> lifeless: we are the crazy volunteers, not the crazy employed
<Madpilot> hi dennister
<Burgundavia> well, lets get going
<Burgundavia> hopefully lophyte will come
<Burgundavia> welcome to the first Ubuntu Canada meeting
<Burgundavia> I hope to get this going on a monthly basis
<Burgundavia> first things first: is there somebody that will write up notes afterward?
* Madpilot volunteers Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> do I have to delegate somebody? :)
* jamonation will do them for ubuntu-toronto from the bot logs
<Burgundavia> right, Madpilot: welcome to your new job
<dennister> not everyone at once, pls :)
<Burgundavia> you cannot object, you are family
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, fine, but you're evil
<Burgundavia> alright, the agenda:
<Burgundavia> 1. Introductions
<Burgundavia> 2. Getting ubuntu membership, how the locoteam can help
<Burgundavia> 3. Existing subgroups and projects
<Burgundavia> 4. New projects
<Burgundavia> 5. Partnerships with existing Linux/FLOSS orgs
<Burgundavia> item 1: introductions: please state your name and where you live
* Burgundavia is Corey Burger, in Victoria BC
<somerville32> Cody A.W. Somerville from Fredericton, New Brunswick
<dennister> Cathy Martens, Toronto
* tonyyarusso is Tony Yarusso, in Peterborough, ON (for uni, but from Minnesota actually)
* Phoenix7477 is Matthew Lloyd, in Edmonton, Aberta
<stryderjzw> Justin Wong, Vancouver, BC
* Madpilot is Brian Burger, likewise Victoria
<jamonation> Jamon Camisso, Toronto, ON
<Burgundavia> anybody else?
<Burgundavia> welcome bhearsum
<bhearsum> heya
* kylevan is Kyle Vanditmars, Surrey BC
<Burgundavia> would you mind introducing yourself?
* bhearsum is Ben Hearsum, Thornill ON
<Burgundavia> we are missing a few, including lophyte, Dave Sullivan, from Toronto, rexbron, from Toronto and robitaille, from Victoria
<Burgundavia> alright, next topic: who here is not an Ubuntu member?
<jamonation> i am not
* tonyyarusso raises hand
<kylevan> as in registered?
<Phoenix7477> not yet lol
<bhearsum> i'm not sure what an Ubuntu member is
<Madpilot> kylevan, no, Membership is different
<dennister> i have a question in regards to memberships
<Burgundavia> as in been through the community council
* stryderjzw is not
* somerville32 is not a member.
* bhearsum is not
<kylevan> then no
<tonyyarusso> See the governance page on the ubuntu.com site, and some related wiki pages, if you don't know what it is.
<Burgundavia> right, so ubuntu membership allows you a ubuntu.com email addy and you get some high fives
<Burgundavia> it is validation for the hard work you have put in
<Madpilot> I know both tonyyarusso & somerville32 have applied for membership at the next CC meeting
<dennister> i haven't done it yet, as I hate having my email addy in public view (the spam bots) but I'm afraid it already is via the mailing list
<dsas> hugs are the usual currency no? ;)
<Burgundavia> usually, yes
<Madpilot> dsas, more work seems to be the usual reward ;)
<dennister> how are we going to encourage membership with this risk to their identity?
<Burgundavia> part of my job as leader of the loco team is to get as many of you through the membership process
<bhearsum> what is the benefit to being a member? and what are the responsibilities?
<Burgundavia> plus currently elkubuntu's AU team is beating me and I cannot have that :)
<Madpilot> dennister, is being part of a publicly archived mailing list really such a risk?
<bhearsum> lol
<Burgundavia> there are currently not responsibilities
<Burgundavia> no, rather
<Madpilot> bhearsum, it's mostly a recognition thing
<bhearsum> ah
<Phoenix7477> makes sense
<Burgundavia> ubuntu membership is also required for going further as a developer, if you desire
<Madpilot> dennister, WRT identity protection, being a member gets you a nice cloak on IRC and stops your IP from being easily visible
<Madpilot> run /whois on either Burgundavia or myself, for example
<dennister> i had lag here, did ppl see my question?
* bhearsum already has a cloak ;)
<Burgundavia> so, here is what is needed to be an ubuntu member: have a visible sustained contribution to something
<Burgundavia> usually this involves an existing project, such as the UWN, documentation, helping people on the forums or #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> then you construct a wikipage to catalogue your contributions and start asking around for support
<kylevan> necessarily directly connected with ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> then you go before the CC and say "this is me, this is what I have done"
<Burgundavia> yes, directly connected with Ubuntu
<kylevan> for example, I'm active on another linux board that isn't ubuntuforums.org
<kylevan> well, more active
<Burgundavia> check the wikipages for myself, Madpilot or robitaille for more info
<kylevan> gotcha
<dennister> oh i c, well i have contributed, but I have to apply now? sorry, but that's quite the process, not going to encourage new users
* dabaR is Dan, in Winnipeg.
<Burgundavia> no need to apply, ever
<Madpilot> hi dabaR
* bhearsum doesn't think he's done anything to warrant being a member
<Burgundavia> welcome dAndy
<dabaR> I do not think I am a member.
<tonyyarusso> Well, it's usually not the newest users who go for membership recognition - it takes a little while.
<dabaR> I am part of a launchpad group, but I never signed the coc, and so on...
<Burgundavia> part of the process is validation that, in fact, your contributions are important
<Madpilot> it takes at least a couple of months, absolute minimum, of visible activity to get Membership
<stryderjzw> I'd like to start finding ways to contribute first.... lol
* Phoenix7477 is currently working on bug triage and is getting involved in packaging, to help the process along
<Burgundavia> right, so that is the next step
<somerville32> stryderjzw, I'm not a member but I've found lots of ways to contribute.
<somerville32> stryderjzw, see my wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodySomerville
<tonyyarusso> stryderjzw: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/contribute iirc
<Burgundavia> so to wrap this up: if you want to be a member, contact me privately after the meeting and I will help you create a wiki page, etc.
<dennister> one minute up, followed by 3 minutes lag...more out than in
<stryderjzw> somerville32, tonyyarusso: thx
<Phoenix7477> will do
<Burgundavia> but, yes, absolutely, you can and are encouraged to contribute even if you don't want to or are not a member
<Burgundavia> again, I can help you with that
<Burgundavia> anything further or shall we move on to 3)?
<tonyyarusso> Minor note:
<dennister> pont is that we want to encourage memberships, and it seems like there's a lot of work involved that will discourage new users
<kylevan> being an ubuntu user isn't connected with having membership...
<tonyyarusso> It says "How the locoteam can help", not just "how Burgundavia can help", so you can look to the rest of the folks too.
<Madpilot> dennister, getting membership is mostly a matter of: do stuff, document that you're doing stuff, show what you've done, get membership.
<Burgundavia> kylevan: when people talk about it in the ubuntu sense, yes
<Burgundavia> sorry, misread, you are right
<dennister> yes, but also apply, write wiki, get support...
<Burgundavia> that is often merely a formality, if you have been already been contributing
<Madpilot> dennister, sure, but you don't need a really complex personal page, and 'get support' come pretty much automatically along with 'do stuff'
<tonyyarusso> dennister: Right, but it's not for when you're just starting.  After a few months it's no longer intimidating.  It's like "hey, I've done some stuff, I should ask for the recognition"
<Burgundavia> trust me: I have been a member for over a year. By the time I went before the CC, I had already been contributing for 6 months
<dennister> and if your not a member yet, ur email is there for the spam bots of the world to see
<Burgundavia> which is a long time, but it made the issue a breeze
<kylevan> dennister, when you say new users, users of what?
<kylevan> ubuntu? the mail-list?
<dennister> the mail list
<dabaR> Yes, it seems it is a little bit of an overhead, but it is a separate task. No reason to not be able to contribute in many useful ways without being a member.
<Burgundavia> dennister: spam bots are a fact of life. any contributions are going to trigger them
<Madpilot> dabaR, exactly
<Burgundavia> dennister: just google my email addy to see it
<dabaR> Like I am the most useful person of all that contribute to Ubuntu, and am not a member...
<Burgundavia> or anybody else who has a sustained contribution to open source, for that matter
<dabaR> haha
<tonyyarusso> Or that pretty much uses the internet really...
<Burgundavia> ok, anything else?
<dennister> <--went for years with no spam
<Burgundavia> next point: 3) existing groups and subprojects
<Burgundavia> I wish lophyte were here for this
<Burgundavia> anyway, Canada is a big country. It is a fact of life. Thus, we are really lots of little groups, rather than one big one
<Burgundavia> we already have some existing subgroups, such as Ubuntu Toronto and the little grouping here in Vic
<Burgundavia> any others out there?
* somerville32 plans to start something in New Brunswick soon.
<tonyyarusso> Sort of semi-provincially I think, not that actively meet up in person a lot that I've heard of.
<Madpilot> all Ubuntu Victoria does is get together on release days and drink beer ;)
<Burgundavia> right
<kylevan> sounds like a vital contribution ;)
<stryderjzw> anything in Vancouver?
<Burgundavia> beer drinking is very vital
<apater> I'd be into doing the same with any one in Vancouver
<tonyyarusso> s/beer/wine/ and I'd come
<Burgundavia> stryderjzw: afaik, no, but there is jeff schering there
<kylevan> we could have a GVRD group
<stryderjzw> kylevan: agreed
<Burgundavia> I encourage people to go looking for existing users in their area and start chatting with each other
<Burgundavia> LUGs are a great way to find people
<tonyyarusso> I know my local LUG has a few Ubuntu users, and they do Ubuntu installs, but I haven't been able to make a mtg yet.
<tonyyarusso> (says so on their web site)
<Burgundavia> there is far more Ubuntu out there than most people realize
<tonyyarusso>   (site note - do we know the ShipIt stats for Canada?)
<Burgundavia> stryderjzw, apater: lets chat later about getting various people from GVRD out
<tonyyarusso> (*side)
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: stats are currently coming. Christina from Canonical and myself spoke about this a few days ago
<kylevan> do we have any sort of initiative for independent advocacy? posters, CD give-outs, etc.
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: awesome
<Burgundavia> right, this ties into the next thing
<kylevan> ah, good
* tonyyarusso points at Madpilot 
<Madpilot> kylevan, ShipIt is still going; there are various posters & such to download
<Burgundavia> the most effective we can be is to work with our local groups and LUGs for advocacy
<Madpilot> yes, including the 'roughcut' set I designed
<Burgundavia> the marketing team is currently working on solving this "marketing stuff" problem
<dabaR> Burgundavia: the most effective at what?
<Burgundavia> what do people need?
<Burgundavia> dabaR: spreading Ubuntu
<tonyyarusso> One of my concerns has been wrt ShipIt only doing LTS releases now
<Burgundavia> shipit is only going to do LTS from now on
<kylevan> what came to my mind is getting some professional looking posters done locally, which can then be distributed to people
<dennister> we will need media for our March Break event, but lophyte's last request was turned down for some reason
<tonyyarusso> Making CDs has cost associated with it, and it would be great to keep that to a minimum.
<Burgundavia> come the next CC meeting, we will be approved and get our 500 Edgy cds
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: What will be the method for distributing those then?
<Burgundavia> I will put out a call and see who needs what
<Burgundavia> I doubt I will keep more than about 25
<Burgundavia> assume shipit is going to be harder to get
<Burgundavia> with that in mind, be conservative with giving out cds
<stryderjzw> where do we get these cds?
<Burgundavia> shipit will ship people free cds
<Burgundavia> hey robitaille
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<Burgundavia> want to quickly introduce yourself?
<robitaille> sorry...I was a bit late
<Burgundavia> dennister: excluding cds, what would be the most useful thing that can be created to handout? a whole page or a half one?
<dennister> how in the world would we be able to anticipate how many ppl would come to an installfest? for the planning stages of our event?
<Burgundavia> installfests have been decreasing in numbers for several years now
<tonyyarusso> I burned a stack personally, and started asking $2 for them to cover my costs, and while I've only actually sold one, it's gotten people's attention enough to go home and download/burn it themselves, which serves the same ultimate goal anyway.  There's a nice display stand on the wiki, and I have a 1-pg "What is Ubuntu?" printout that you can put next to it for anyone interested.
<Madpilot> dennister, depends on your area and how much publiciity you've been able to get
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: I have a whole page, as noted ^^
<dennister> a postcard sized one to hand out on street corners
<Burgundavia> ok, lets brainstorm on this and get one produced
<dennister> we can do publicity, but it's still hard to guess how many will actually come until they do arrive
<Madpilot> dennister, I can do a postcard-sized - one-quarter of an 8.5x11 sheet, basically
<Burgundavia> you can ask for a rvsp
<Burgundavia> dennister: why don't we chat in the -marketing channel post meeting about this card
<tonyyarusso> I would love to do a big-screen (digital projector in lecture hall) presentation at my university, possibly followed up with an installfest, but would need help with how to accomplish that.
<dennister> ok, i like handing out postcards on the street, more than cd's
<Burgundavia> ok: the website: what do people need/want from it?
<Madpilot> dennister, I'll start a thread on the ML about a postcard
<dennister> ok Burgundavia, will do
<dabaR> tonyyarusso: talk to the lab/lecture hall administrator.
<dabaR> tonyyarusso: talk to the people that would be able to book it. Or talk with the CS department, get them in on it, and then have them book the room for you.
<tonyyarusso> dabaR: I mean wrt the content of the presentation and such; I think I know how to get a room booking.
<Burgundavia> welcome rexbron, what to introduce yourself?
<dabaR> tonyyarusso: it is up to you what you want to present on.
<Burgundavia> lets chat in -marketing about that as well
<tonyyarusso> I know Burgundavia has done official presentations of some sort (there are videos), but we can discuss later.
<Burgundavia> one of the key things is that neither of these two projects is somethign -ca needs to do itself
<tonyyarusso> Right
<Burgundavia> we can and should work with other loco teams and the marketing team to make certain we are not duplicating stuff
<dabaR> tonyyarusso: I did one in a 30 comp. lab with everyone running live CD, showed them how to get a ssh, web, ftp server up with dyndns for a dns name up in a short time.
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> I think the post-card sized handouts are a really good idea
<tonyyarusso> What are the Canada-specific issues in marketing/promotion, if any?
<kylevan> wouldn't it be easier/cheaper to get business card sized material?
<Burgundavia> kylevan: issue of getting enough information on them, but as another thing, yes
<tonyyarusso> For one, big country, with many rural users, that may not have a lot of access to other people and other computers normally.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: upcoming copyright reform is an issue to be talked about
<Burgundavia> should we put up a page on the website about it?
<rexbron> Hey all
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: I'm not even aware of those issues yet.  (I try to follow news, but there's a limit)
<rexbron> sorry had to run some unexpected errands
<Burgundavia> ok, that works
<Burgundavia> I will work on getting some news on that into the public
<tonyyarusso> Has anyone had experience spreading Ubuntu to rural areas?
<Burgundavia> hey lophylap
<lophylap> bah, sorry
<dennister> as far as the website is concerned, i'm writing some content for ubuntu-toronto
<lophylap> got suckered in to watching a movie with the gf
<rexbron> lophylap: lol
<tonyyarusso> lophylap: Name, location for the good people
<Burgundavia> lophylap: rexbron, robitaille: mind if you tell us your real name and location?
<lophylap> dave sullivan, toronto :)
<rexbron> Andrew Hunter, Toronto
* robitaille is Daniel Robitaille...victoria BC.
<Burgundavia> we are currently talking about new marketing projects
<rexbron> ok cool
<Burgundavia> mostly material to hand out, but also how to get information out
<rexbron> Mind summarizing the points so far?
<rexbron> kok
<kylevan> with regards to the website, it might be an idea to pool together a "marketing kit" of sorts
<Burgundavia> going to work with the marketing team on a new handout
<lophylap> we've got a couple of projects lined up in Toronto at the moment
* somerville32 nods.
<tonyyarusso> kylevan: The marketing team is working on that actually
<Burgundavia> but please get involved
<Burgundavia> never assume somebody is working on something
<kylevan> basically so that people that might not even have a LUG near them can do some independent advocacy
<tonyyarusso> right
<lophylap> ah.
<kylevan> i haven't been to the DIYmarketing wiki for a while
<tonyyarusso> They're working on making that part of the wiki a site of its own.
<dennister> imagine canada and volunteer canada have a fair amount of literature on volunteerism in rurual areas
<tonyyarusso> We've been just starting to see layout drafts.
<Madpilot> dennister, any of it online?
<Burgundavia> dennister: mind posting links to the -ml?
<dennister> tons...mostly all online
<somerville32> What about writing letters to our MPs to help make them aware of OSS and OSS issues.
<dennister> do a google search for anything, imagine canada and volunteer canada's stuff will come up
<somerville32> +?
<lophylap> it'd definitely be nice to have a marketing package to hand out to local computer vendors and such
<kylevan> well, I realize that there may be a project going on right now, but perhaps as a stop-gap including some useful links on ubuntu-ca.org
<zul> hi
<lophylap> that's something I think we're lacking
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: +1 on that
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> welcome zul
<Madpilot> somerville32, sure, along with the copyright/IP issues
<Burgundavia> zul is our sole developer and one of the lead Xen devs in Ubuntu
<dennister> sorry, but MP's will see OSS's as something beneath their radar
<Burgundavia> zul: mind giving us your real name and location?
<kylevan> I've been working my MP about network neutrality lately
<zul> Chuck Short from the cold capital of canada
<tonyyarusso> Is Canada talking about net neutrality?  I know they are in the US
<lophylap> yup, we are
<kylevan> to a degree
<lophylap> neutrality.ca
<dennister> we need to talk less about technology and more about human needs for marketing to work
<tonyyarusso> zul: cold capital?  Resolute?
<Burgundavia> as for promoting OSS to MPs, it is important to promote the wider world of OSS, not just Ubuntu
<kylevan> lophylap, ya beat me to it
<zul> tonyyarusso: ottawa
<tonyyarusso> psssh
<kylevan> hah
<Burgundavia> general OSS promotion should probably be done through CLUE
<kylevan> if anyone wants, I can give you tories' form letter regarding network neutrality
<lophylap> Burgundavia: I think dennister has a good point, and I think this is the reason that OSS marketing has mostly failed
<tonyyarusso> clue.ca?  (/me hasn't heard of)
<dennister> we're a bunch of techies, or techie-wannabes...we need to talk other non-technical languages
<Burgundavia> yep
<lophylap> we're pushing technological advantages of Linux/OSS on to people.. "its more stable, there's no viruses" etc.
<Madpilot> dennister, exactly - you need to be on the -marketing ML, if you aren't already
<tonyyarusso> Okay, what are the issues in non-technical terms?
<lophylap> we need to push the human side out of people for it to appeal
<dennister> by pushing apple-pie issues we will get people to lsiten
<sid> tonyyarusso: freedom
<Burgundavia> http://cluecan.ca/
<sid> tonyyarusso: That is non-technical and lots of people seem to get that term.
<Burgundavia> we need to push value
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: thx
<dennister> the issues are education, civil liberties, helping the poor
<Burgundavia> so tell them about things like the ability to watch and do things as they like, not how big corps want
<dennister> yes, value, independence, freedom
<kylevan> could we say environmental impact from electronics waste?
<Burgundavia> talk to them about access to education and computers
<Burgundavia> yep, that is a good one
<dennister> yes, environmentalism will help
<sid> kylevan: Why is that a factor? hardware running proprietary software or free software still does equal damage to the environment.
<dennister> access to education and computers for al, social justice... these will resonate
<kylevan> i'm talking about "my old computer won't run vista, I'm gonna chuck it"
<Burgundavia> sid: we can reuse existing hardware that doesn
<Burgundavia> t run windows any more
<sid> ahh, yes
<sid> ltsp
<kylevan> on that note...
<Burgundavia> yep, or xubuntu
<somerville32> WOOT! :D
<Burgundavia> somerville32: showing your colours? :)
<sid> You should make a wiki about what makes free software valuable.(freedom being at the top of the list, imho)
<kylevan> on notebookreview.com we had a number of people coming in asking how to wipe win98 and install linux recently
<dennister> methinks we have agreement: talk less tech, more social issues
<lophylap> indeed
<sid> Does this group have a web page?
<lophylap> http://www.ubuntu.ca/
<sid> k
<Burgundavia> my server still up?
<Madpilot> sid, this is the Ubuntu Canada locoteam meeting
<somerville32> :] 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, yup, but I bet it just started working harder
<lophylap> is there anything Canadian-specific that we can tie into this?
<Burgundavia> lophylap: the need for resources to market with
<lophylap> what can we do to make Ubuntu appeal to Canadians?
<dennister> our vision and values are non-technical; it's the mission of ubuntu that helps us achieve the vision
<Phoenix7477> perhaps something about the ease of transitioning, i know alot of people that have this as a problem when considering using gnu/linux. Talk about how you can use LiveCD to try it out, for example
<lophylap> not just 'people'.. Canadians
<kylevan> beaver backgrounds?
<kylevan> ;)
<tonyyarusso> He may have a point.
<Burgundavia> people have most of the same computing pains the world over
<tonyyarusso> Some good localized artwork would be nice.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: you want to do a local background we can stick on the website?
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/wallpaper/UC_wallpaper1.png <-- tonyyarusso, like this? (this'll really stress the server...)
<sid> Why not just put up signs near bridges that are over busy highways.(if that's legal) It's legal in USA, first amendment and all. At the next LoCo meeting bring some big paper and paint or something.(good idea or bad?)
<dennister> something that strikes me is how the ubuntu logo resembes maple leaf
<kylevan> sid, I don't think the whole loco team is gonna meet up
<Madpilot> dennister, I'm way ahead of you there too: http://ubuntu-ca.org/logo/Ubuntu_Canada_logo.png
<sid> "Use software with freedom, help your community, share collaborate... www.ubuntu.ca"
<Burgundavia> dennister: that is our logo, not Ubuntus one
<rexbron> have you seen the Ubuntu -ca
<rexbron> ?
<kylevan> that's a few kms
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Like that, yes, although I don't personally like that particular one (too "busy")
<tonyyarusso> More though
<dennister> soemthing that is uniquely canadian is our relaxed-compared-to-us copying laws
<lophylap> ture
<lophylap> true*
<Burgundavia> yep, but people don't get exciting about that kind of stuff
<dennister> and we have privacy laws too, unlike the us
<Burgundavia> for the record, I sell desktop Linux everyday
<Burgundavia> it is a facinating insight into what makes people choose technology
<tonyyarusso> Not for getting excited, but it might be something we can use to our advantage at in-between stages.
<Burgundavia> they are about their pain, not somebody elses
<dennister> no, people don't get excited, but it's part of our analysis of why ubuntu should grow more easily in canada...another point we could use in marketing is canadian anti-us feelings
<tonyyarusso> For instance, I'm not clear on the legality here, but I heard someone suggest Canada might be able to distribute disks with many !restricted formats included.
<Burgundavia> I would be hesitant to promote us using that
<kylevan> negative marketing isn't so cool
<Phoenix7477> yeah
<sid> tonyyarusso: Well it depends if it's copyright or patents.
<kylevan> at least on that scale
<lophylap> indeed
<dennister> o i'd agree...last thing we want is negative us-bashing
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: the one thing we are not going to do is to create a local Ubuntu build for canada
<Burgundavia> we cannot support it
<lophylap> that's been discussed before
<dennister> being negative at all is bad for marketing
<rexbron> That was dusscussed already right?
<lophylap> and I don't really like the idea
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Point taken.
<lophylap> too much work
<Burgundavia> too little of us have that kind of technical skill
<kylevan> could we create a canadian localization package in the repos?
<sid> tonyyarusso: The next Ubuntu release will differentiate between restrictive countries and free'er countries. So that will be included in Feisty iirc
<Burgundavia> what is the need?
<tonyyarusso> kylevan: I'd like that
<kylevan> backgrounds, themes, etc.
<tonyyarusso> sid: Interesting
<Burgundavia> those can be distrbuted from a website just as easily
<Burgundavia> sid: that is incorrect
<Burgundavia> there is nothing liek that on the table
<sid> tonyyarusso: But imho, if you're distributing binary blobs, or binary only codecs..you're doing a dis-service to your fellow Canadians.
<tonyyarusso> Themes & backgrounds came up in a conversation with Ralph on the mailing list as well, for groups within Canada.
<somerville32> Just create a package with Canada theme stuff
<tonyyarusso> sid: I agree; just that people want them.  Anyway, we can drop that topic.  Bad direction.
<Burgundavia> ok, lets wrap this up, as it has already run an hour
<kylevan> Burgundavia, fair enough about using a website
<tonyyarusso> I think things like art make more sense on the LoCo level then
<Burgundavia> we need to produce some marketing stuff
<tonyyarusso> #4?
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: we are already talking about 4 and 5
<lophylap> Burgundavia: did you talk about my earlier suggestion?
<Burgundavia> lophylap: which was that?
<lophylap> making meetings monthly, and encouraging people to start something in their municipality
<Burgundavia> yep, both are good ideas
<kylevan> who are the vancouver-area people again?
<Burgundavia> let tentatively set the next meeting to be a month from now, the 2nd Sat. of the month
* stryderjzw raises hand
<tonyyarusso> I have a new project also.  Not sure it needs much discussion here, but see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOjibweTranslators and follow up with me later if you're interested.
<Burgundavia> kylevan: I know one as well
<apater> yo
<Burgundavia> yes, native languages
<Burgundavia> anybody here native or have connections with native groups?
<somerville32> I do
<somerville32> That is, I have connections with native groups.
<Burgundavia> one of things I want to start, but live in the wrong part of the country, is to figure out how to translate Ubuntu into these languages
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: Which groups, where?
<dennister> test
<Burgundavia> dennister: you are bouncing in a out
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Were you looking into any other than Inuktitut?
<Burgundavia> and out, rather
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: no, I realized I simply don't have the connections or the time, currently
<somerville32> tonyyarusso, I can't spell it, haha
<dennister> i know...really annoying...one minute in for 3 minutes each...lag
<Burgundavia> dennister: the log is available
<dennister> link? thx in advance
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: Try?
<dennister> would love to get rid of lag
<somerville32> tonyyarusso, McMac? lol
<Burgundavia> dennister: people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<somerville32> Umm..
<dennister> ty
<somerville32> And a few others that are on the tip of my tongue.
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: Okay.  Cool.
<somerville32> I'll try to get some students from the local High Schools to translate Ubuntu into their language. They're always looking for volunteer stuff.
<Burgundavia> that woudl be cool
<tonyyarusso> Maybe we should have some generalized info about native language work on the ubuntu.ca site, and add translation efforts as they get going.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: can you create such a page and get it to me or Madpilot?
<Burgundavia> plain html
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: I can help tell you about the process for setting up a LP team and mailing list later.
<somerville32> tonyyarusso, The latter would be useful knowledge.
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Sure.  Not right away (exams) but over break I hope to do some work.
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<dennister> there's the ojibwe project from ubuntu-toronto...first nations projects market well
<somerville32> How can we get write access to the ubuntu-ca website?
<Burgundavia> there is probably money and people available for them, if we sell them right
<Burgundavia> somerville32: you bug me
* somerville32 bugs Burgundavia.
<Burgundavia> somerville32: after, in -ca
<tonyyarusso> dennister: Tell me more about what Toronto's doing later - I've had only loose contact with them.
<Burgundavia> anything further?
<dennister> lot of interest in orgs that do 'good works' for others...ok
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Although Harper is slashing the money drastically - my prof was just at a protest in Ottawa.
<dennister> lophyte knows about that ojibwe project
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: gov will change eventually. We can only hope
<tonyyarusso> Right.
<rexbron> Burgundavia: I thought we were going to keep politics out of this
<Madpilot> somerville32, best way to get 'write access' to ubuntu.ca currently is to just email the list. Burgundavia & I both have access to the server
<tonyyarusso> dennister: roger
<tonyyarusso> lophylap: (We'll talk later?)
<dennister> harper's gov is horrible...slashing money to charities...hope the gov fails over the budget
<Burgundavia> rexbron: I was referring to them cutting, rather than the specific govs
<Burgundavia> anyway, I think we have a bunch of stuff to work on and I it was good have a meeting and meet all the new people
<rexbron> dennister: I would review the cuts to see if they are worth while rather than just extol the phrase "all cuts are bad"
<Burgundavia> so to wrap up: if you want help with membership, I am your man
<Burgundavia> for the marketing stuff, lets move to -marketing
<dennister> have we decided on clue vs metalug?
<dennister> or both?
<Burgundavia> both
<rexbron> Burgundavia: How large of a portfolio would you sugest for membership?
<Burgundavia> hopefully they will become one
<dennister> great, thx
<Burgundavia> rexbron: depends on the person
<Burgundavia> and teh contributions
<dennister> when cuts mean tons of people in charities losing jobs, that's bad
<Burgundavia> for the native lang stuff, lets coordinate via the wiki and the mailing list
<dennister> the entire nonprofit sector (huge) is up in arms about it
<Burgundavia> and for the political stuff -offtopic beckons
<tonyyarusso> (only kind of)
<dennister> ok...
<tonyyarusso> (##politics ;) )
<Burgundavia> or that
<rexbron> dennister: the star has a report that 80% of MADD's fundrasing goes to fund more fundraisign
<Burgundavia> final words anybody?
<rexbron> something is wrong if that happens
<Burgundavia> rexbron: I am quite serious
<rexbron> kk
<Burgundavia> this is not Ubuntu related
<dennister> but i would recommend some of the research on encouraging volunteerism on the web, from imagine canada and volunteer canada
<Burgundavia> dennister: can you post that to the ml?
<dennister> what's the ml?
<Burgundavia> mailing list
<dennister> oh mailing list
<dennister> will do
<Burgundavia> excellent
<tonyyarusso> I think it would be really cool to have more in-person get-together's, but physical distance makes that very difficult in Canada.  Maybe something every couple of years or so - long term back-burner thought.
<kylevan> everyone, we're going to Regina!
<Burgundavia> I travel fairly extensively, so I imagine I will get to visit at least some of you
<Burgundavia> perk of the job
<dennister> hey!
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, we should lobby to have another Ubuntu Dev summit in Canada - Vancouver, maybe
<dennister> have we discussed some of the upcoming conferences?
<somerville32> What about encouraging the youth of Canada to participate?
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: That would be sweet.  No idea how those are decided.
<Burgundavia> which ones?
<dennister> presence at? like the cute conference in toronto would be good
<Burgundavia> dennister: that wiki page I created?
<dennister> yes, was looking at it
<Burgundavia> need volunteers
<kylevan> somerville32, I'm hoping to get some marketing stuff up at SFU where I attend classes
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: I'm in a concurrent education program, and have placements in high schools, where I try to mention it and hand out a couple of CDs.  More things like that kind of contact would be awesome.
<Burgundavia> if you say you can do it, I can probably get you in the door
<dennister> i think we can get volunteers, need marketing material soon tho, to distribute at table
<dennister> Jan 11-13 is cute conference...young university ppl
<Burgundavia> dennister: round me up some volunteers and lets chat
<dennister> ok...will bring it up on wed at ubuntu-toronto meeting
<rexbron> dennister: is cute an acronym?
<dennister> yes, conference university...something like that...it's on the conference table on corey's wiki
<somerville32> I'll e-mail the schools and universities here in Fredericton to see if I can get more people involved.
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam/Conferences
<dennister> high school and university students are good target markets
<Burgundavia> yes, they are
<somerville32> I also seem a few Fredericton contacts on the ubuntu-ca wiki page, I'll see if I can get them to help me
<dennister> they're poor, they're politically aware, need pc's, looking for alternatives
<kylevan> Burgundavia, I'm interested in doing some advocacy at my school, can I pick your brain on how to go about it?
<tonyyarusso> somerville32: It would be good if we could coordinate university efforts as well - many users in that age group.
<rexbron> Burgundavia: I am currently getting involved with Ubuntu Studio to try and get that project off the groud
<rexbron> ground
<Burgundavia> kylevan: sure
<kylevan> -marketing perhaps?
<Burgundavia> rexbron: interesting
<Burgundavia> -ca is probably better
<rexbron> that would be a good vector to target the Fine Arts kiddies
<kylevan> fair enough
<dennister> yes, the artsies are poor, too, good target market
<somerville32> Whats the best version of Ubuntu to demonstrate to Users?
<somerville32> And what about Ubuntu sister projects?
<somerville32> Like Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu?
<somerville32> First impression is everything
<kylevan> basically when/where can I get marketing material.  I could print up the poster that Jenda(?) put on ubuntuforums.org, but I dont really have the resources to do very many
<dennister> me, i like kubuntu...i think more xp-migrators will like kubuntu
<Burgundavia> in general, I say Ubuntu to everybody, Edubuntu to those who needs it, and Xubuntu for slow machines
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu simply gets more work and more polish than Kubuntu
<rexbron> there are 20 people in the York U linux users group on face book
<rexbron> interesting
<dennister> my alma mater :)
<rexbron> they have a channel, #yucc
<rexbron> on freenode
<rexbron> might want to see if there are any Ubuntu users there
<Burgundavia> ok, final thoughts, so we can call this meeting closed
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> and head back to -ca for further dicussion?
<dennister> interesting :)
* somerville32 nods.
<dennister> i'm ok with that
<tonyyarusso> Sounds fine
<rexbron> righty o
<Burgundavia> thanks everybody for coming! nice to see some new faces and hopefully you will stick around :)
<dennister> i'll be there in a sec...will head to yucc
<kylevan> sure
<stryderjzw> thanks Burgundavia!
<somerville32> Whens the next meeting?
<kylevan> good to meet everyone
<Madpilot> somerville32, TBA, Jan. sometime I guess
<dennister> yes, likewise
<Burgundavia> next meeting 2nd sat of Jan.
<Madpilot> thanks all for coming out
<Burgundavia> tentatively
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-03
<kraut> moin
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 16:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-04
<kraut> moin
<tritium> hi dholbach :)
<dholbach> hi tritium
<tritium> I saw your message the other day during the CC meeting.
<tritium> Thanks for saying hi!
 * dholbach hugs tritium
<tritium> Thanks, dholbach!
<tritium> Off to bed.  Good night...
<dholbach> nightie tritium
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 04 Dec 11:00: Server Team meeting | 05 Dec 15:30: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting
<jdstrand> hi clifter1!
<clifter1> <jdstrand> hello!
<jdstrand> (I'm Jamie)
<clifter1> oh ok ;)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<somerville32> \o/
<mathiaz> hi all ! :)
<jdstrand> hi mathiaz !
<jdstrand> mathiaz: we got a foot of snow here-- you?
<jdstrand> uh, 1/3 meter..
<jdstrand> 33.3 cm
 * jdstrand is still getting used to the metric stuff :)
<nijaba> No snow in Paris yet...  Hello everybody
<mathiaz> jdstrand: a little bit more here
<sommer> hello everyone
<jdstrand> mathiaz: well, it's still snowing now, so maybe we can catch up ;)
<nxvl_work> here the sun is shining
<jdstrand> nxvl_work: what part of the world?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: hehe.. good luck. it's still snowing here :D
<nxvl_work> summer is beginning
<nxvl_work> jdstrand: Peru
<jdstrand> nxvl_work: nice!
<nealmcb> jdstrand: http://www.google.com/search?q=1+foot+in+cm&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
<zul> morning
<mathiaz> morning zul
<jdstrand> nealmcb: hehe, thanks
<mathiaz> soren: around ?
<zul> mathiaz: still digging yourself out?
<soren> Yes. Sorry.
<jdstrand> nealmcb: that is very precise, unfortunately, my initial '1 foot' was not ;)
<jdstrand> nealmcb: hey you probably have some snow don't you?
<nealmcb> it's windy and pretty warm in boulder - the classic chinook....
<mathiaz> allright. Let's get this started.
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * coffeedude waves at *
<mathiaz> Welcome to the 10th meeting of the ServerTeam !
<soren> \o/
<nealmcb> !!
<sommer> party!
<macd> wooo
<mathiaz> so - the agenda is quite small.
<mathiaz> anyone wants to add something to it ?
<sommer> I had a couple of question regarding the documentation area.
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<sommer> but if there's other topics they can go first
<mathiaz> sommer: we can review your question when we get down to the documentation section of the roadmap ?
<sommer> cool, works for me
<mathiaz> great.
<mathiaz>  [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071127
<coffeedude> mathiaz: Likewise Open is now publicly available.  I can give an update on that if there is time.
<mathiaz> coffeedude: sure.
<mathiaz> coffeedude: after the last meeting review ?
<coffeedude> mathiaz: sure.  Just ping me when it's time.
<mathiaz> sommer: As usual you've done a great job
<sommer> mathiaz: heh thx
<mathiaz> nijaba has put the MIR spec online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
<nijaba> yep...
<mathiaz> ScottK and Ante picked up some packages
<Zic> @now
<mathiaz> If anyone wants to work on writing some MIR, they should edit the wiki page.
<macd> I was thinking rubygems might be pulled into main? is rails?
<mathiaz> I didn't have time to update the Roadmap with the list of spec for hardy
<mathiaz> I'll try to get this done by next week.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmap with the specs for hardy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will update the Developer section of the Roadmap with the specs for hardy
<mathiaz> macd: I think it's part of the RoR spec, isn't it ?
<macd> yes, but the MIR spec still has it as rejected, I got confused
<mathiaz> macd: right. it's been marked as defered.
<mathiaz> macd: the MirSpec is about getting packages into main that are not necessarly covered by another spec.
<macd> mathiaz, ahh, right great ;)
<mathiaz> getting something into main doesn't mean it has to be on the list.
<mathiaz> the MirSpec is just a list of packages that we've discussed at UDS
<mathiaz> they should be considered for inclusion into main.
<mathiaz> The db4.4 bug has been uploaded and should be fixed soon.
<nealmcb> thanks!!
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/db4.4/+bug/153996
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [High,Fix committed]
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Likewise Open is now publicly available.
<MootBot> New Topic:   Likewise Open is now publicly available.
<coffeedude> ok.
<coffeedude> For those who were at UDS during the Window integration section, I demoed some domain join utilities for AD domains.
<coffeedude> That code is now publicly available
<coffeedude> http://www.likewisesoftware.com/community/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.likewisesoftware.com/community/
<coffeedude> dendrobates has the source tarball of the release and we are working on packages for Hardy.
<coffeedude> The main packaging issue is splitting out the gui and cli utilities into separate packages.
<coffeedude> I'll send out a short announcement to the ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-server lists as well later today.
<coffeedude> mathiaz: That's the short run of it.  Unless there are some specific questions.....
<mathiaz> coffeedude: thanks for the quick intro.
<mralphabet> coffeedude: is that going to be in for hardy? is that the target?
<coffeedude> mralphabet: targetting Jan 2 for upload.
<mralphabet> coffeedude: ahh, k thanks
<coffeedude> mralphabet: so yes.  Definitely in Hardy
<nealmcb> coffeedude: many thanks - important stuff!
<coffeedude> nealmcb: :-)
<sommer> sounds like a good thing to add to the Windows Neteworking section of the docs
<mathiaz> sommer: yes. That's something that defenitly needs to be documented and announced.
<mathiaz> we should mentioned in the release notes
<sommer> once the packages are in the repos we could start with a wiki page... then translate it to DocBook
<nijaba> sommer: count me in if you need some help there
<sommer> nijaba: cool, probably will because I don't currently have an AD domain available
<nijaba> sommer: VM are great for this
<mathiaz> Let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<nealmcb> nijaba: but having ad to test against is harder....
<sommer> nijaba: ya... just need to set one up.
<coffeedude> btw...I'll plan to spend a fair amount on QA as well (in Hardy) since I have a large set of AD domains.....
<nealmcb> any way someone can make some AD domains available for testing by others?
<coffeedude> nealmcb: not mine.  But we can bring this up on the ubuntu-server list perhaps.....
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> soren: how is the merge going ?
<soren> Sorry, I was on the phone :(
<soren> mathiaz: Which merge?
<soren> (me lost track somewhere)
<mathiaz> soren: the general state of merge on the server related packages
<soren> Oh.. Good question. I think we're in pretty good shape.
<soren> ...but I honestly haven't checked the list in a about a week.
<mathiaz> I see that libpam-ldap and libnss-ldap are still needed
<soren> jdstrand did them already, I just haven't reviewed them.
<soren> I suck.
<mathiaz> soren: what about the samba merge ?
<jdstrand> soren: come on now, you don't *suck*
<mathiaz> soren: Do you have an issue with the change of the default workgroup name ?
<soren> mathiaz: I talked to Steve about it yesterday. I haven't checked if he implemented my comments. If he did, I'll upload later today.
<soren> mathiaz: I did, but I'm happy now :)
<mathiaz> soren: He attached a new debdiff with some changelog modification.
<soren> That's what I told him to. Great. Later today, then.
<mathiaz> soren: but the core change to move from MSHOME to WORKGROUP is ok with you ?
<soren> Yes.
<mathiaz> soren: great :)
<soren> Even though I might think that MSHOME is still a sane default, this will be less and less true as time goes by, so the sooner we change it, the less pain we get later on.
<mathiaz> soren: right. As I said in the debian bug, MSHOME is the default for Windows XP Home - the other products use WORKGROUP, as upstream samba.
<soren> mathiaz: I'm aware
<mathiaz> sommer: how documentation is going ?
<soren> However, even though I have no actual statistics to back this up, I think XP Home is still quite common among a lot of our users.
<soren> But let's not worry about that. It's being changed as of now, so there :)
<nijaba> soren: I strongly disagree that our target users are XP home users...
<soren> nijaba: That's not what I'm saying.
<sommer> mathiaz: good the dns section is updated
<nealmcb> soren: yeah - it is frustrating and I appreciate your comments - changing our default is a hassle for our users - but I think this is the right approach
<soren> nijaba: I'm saying that I think there might happen to a certain correlation between the set of users that are likely to use Ubuntu and the set of users who are likely to have XP Home machines on their existing network.
<soren> nealmcb: Agreed. The point is that as time goes by, it will be annoying to more and more users, and given that we're likely to change it at some point, earlier is better.
<nealmcb> ... bite the bullet now....
<nijaba> soren: clearer, thanks
<soren> nijaba: :)
<mathiaz> sommer: what's next on the plate for the ServerGuide review ?
<sommer> one of my questions has to do with doc.u.c and having a "nightly" build of the development docs
<sommer> I filed  Bug #173104
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 173104 in ubuntu-docs "doc.ubuntu.com/  needs updated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173104
<sommer> and Mathew East was going to query some people about it... I was wondering if there's anything the Server Team can do?
<sommer> basically it would be easier for reviewers if an html version of the development docs were available
<mathiaz> sommer: Not much I guess. It's a Doc team issue
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha... thought I'd try anyway
<sommer> in regards to the next section I was thinking about updating the Intro and Installation sections
<dendrobates> hello everyone.  I finally showed up.  :)
<jdstrand> hi dendrobates!
<sommer> was planning on trying to answer the questions raised in these articles http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3709221
<soren> dendrobates: Hi, boss :)
<sommer> that's the first one anyway
<nealmcb> sommer: :-)
<nijaba> sommer: very good idea
<sommer> my plan was to cover the new tasksel options and which packages are installed... or at least how to find which packages
<mathiaz> I don't think we need to cover which package are installed.
<nijaba> sommer: from these articles we also need a section explaining which are the specific optimizations in the server kernel
<mathiaz> That's the reason why we're using tasksel after all
<sommer> nijaba: ya... I was also wondering if the current min requirements are accurate?
<nealmcb> I was curious about her comments in the last (?) article about separate namespaces for ipc, uts - for container security? CONFIG_IPC_NS=y, CONFIG_UTS_NS=y
<nealmcb> so hopefully someone can dig in and document or perhaps respond
<nijaba> sommer: good question.  I'll check that and get back to you
<sommer> nijaba: cool, thanks
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba will check the minimun requirement for an installation of ubuntu-server
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba will check the minimun requirement for an installation of ubuntu-server
<sommer> the other thing with the tasksel options is if they change there are any config changes that differ from using apt
<sommer> ivoks mentioned that the mail-server task will automatically setup Dovecot SASL for example
<soren> We're working to get that working independently of tasksel.
<nijaba> sommer: there is a specific postinst script for tasksel
<mathiaz> sommer: not for now. But dovecot sasl is using this approach.
<soren> I'd *really* like to avoid doing anything like that from tasksel.
<soren> The dovecot side of things is mostly settled.
<sommer> makes sense to me, I think either way we need to document it :-)
<soren> Sure, sure.
<soren> It's just (hopefully) not going to be a tasksel (or even task) specific thing, but rather a feature of the packages involved.
<mathiaz> soren: that would be ideal. But it seems that there are some dependencies issues.
<nijaba> soren: shall we document the ^ thing in apt-get ?
<soren> nijaba: Yes :)
<soren> mathiaz: Shall I explain now or do you want to wait until after the meeting?
<nijaba> I meant, other than in the code of course ;)
<mathiaz> soren: well - the best thing would to comment on the bug.
<soren> Sure.
<mathiaz> soren: bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dovecot/+bug/164837
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 164837 in dovecot "Dovecot SASL for postfix" [Low,In progress]
<mathiaz> nealmcb: what's the state of the factoids update ?
<nealmcb> stalled while I fix my laptop disk :-(
<nealmcb> like my jeos bug reports and comments .....
<sommer> the other documentation question I had as if it makes sense to include a "Howto Install GUI" section?
<sommer> I know it's not recommended on a server, but the question seems to come up a lot
<mathiaz> sommer: correct.
<nijaba> sommer: please no !
<mathiaz> I'd start with a wiki page
<sommer> also, most of the info is already out there in the forums and wiki
<nijaba> a factoid maybe?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure wiki sounds fine to me.
<mathiaz> If we can point to a wiki page on h.u.c when the question is asked it would be great.
 * nealmcb agrees - documentation is helpful!
<mathiaz> I'm not sure it would be a usefull section in the Server Guide.
<sommer> cool that works
<mathiaz> sommer: could add this as an item to the Roadmap ?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, will do
<sommer> probably a good topic for a new contributor as well
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will add an item about writing a wiki page to install a minimal GUI on the server
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will add an item about writing a wiki page to install a minimal GUI on the server
<mathiaz> sommer: yes.
<nealmcb> the server guide could note that it doesn't cover desktop x11, and refer to another ubuntu doc that talks about switching desktops
<nealmcb> and explain why they don't make sense on most servers
<mathiaz> nealmcb: good idea.
<nealmcb> and when ebox is there we can point folks there
<nijaba> nealmcb: +1
<sommer> nealmcb: good call we probably need an ebox section in the official docs as well
<mathiaz> ok - we're running out of time
<nealmcb> sommer: yes!!!
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<mathiaz> in one week ? same time, same place ?
<sommer> works for me
<somerville32> +1
<dendrobates> this is a difficult time for me.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: +1
<nealmcb> dendrobates: better time?
<dendrobates> If we want it to be around 16:00 utc, it will always be difficult.
<dendrobates> I'll just make it when I can, mathiaz is doing a great job running it.
 * soren hugs mathiaz
 * sommer thanks mathiaz
<jdstrand> mathiaz: kicks it!
 * nijaba calls for a group hug around mathiaz
 * jdstrand seconds
 * nealmcb joins in
 * mathiaz suggests we should do that outside here in montreal
<mathiaz> ok. So let's have another meeting next meeting
<mathiaz> but I won't be here - I'll be on vacation
<mathiaz> I'll see you all next year
<soren> I agree that next meeting is a good time for next meeting.
<soren> :p
<nijaba> Enjoy your vacations mathiaz
<mathiaz> soren: lol
<jdstrand> I love having a meeting in the next meeting
<mathiaz> soren: yeah... I should read what I write sometimes
<mathiaz> thanks nijaba
<mathiaz> ok. So next meeting: next week, same time, same place.
<nijaba> cheers everyone !
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:08.
<mathiaz> Thanks all and see ya in 2008 :)
<sommer> good stuff, later all
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Dec 20:30 UTC: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<huats> does anybody know who I should contact if I think I am not referenced as a member, while I should :)
<Riddell> huats: community council member
<huats> Riddell: Yeah thanks :)
<huats> I've found the answer :) Apparently I've been forgotten in the approval in the Member group on launchpad...
<huats> I'll try to ping one of them :)
<Hattory> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 13 Dec 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-05
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 06 Dec 04:30: Xubuntu meeting | 13 Dec 07:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 23:00: Server Team meeting
 * ogra waves
<ogra> hey flint
<stgraber_> hey
<pips1> flint: ogra RichEd stgraber hi
<flint> ogra, how are you doing!
 * RichEd lurks ... busy with dealine ... mention by name if needed specifically
<RichEd> *deadline
 * pips1 is also in lurking-mode
<ogra> RichEd, i'll call you for the last part for communty/management ...
 * Hobbsee waves
<ogra> so teahc:
<RichEd> ta
<ogra> *tech
 * pips1 is cooking lunch
<flint> I sort of like "dealine"  sort of like the line on a deal...
<ogra> pips1, congrats to rpoducing new ubuntu users btw :)
<flint> it is morning in Vermont.
<ogra> *producing
<pips1> ogra: hehe, thanks
<pips1> the new ubuntu user is currently being fed
<flint> ogra, your movie find deserves mention.  Very cool.
<pips1> the mother wears a ubuntu t-shirt, believe it or not :-)
<ogra> so we had some open questions last week ... i talked to cjwatson about the CD changes and consensus was that they will happen in *any case*
<stgraber_> question being when ...
<ogra> overall the seeds will be changed a lot so i cant exactly predict when
<stgraber_> looks like my server is back online, great :)
<ogra> stgraber, we wont do any vitong today, no need to have three accounts logged in :P
<ogra> *voting
<stgraber_> ogra: crappy germany <-> france connection at the moment, all my internet trafic going through germany I have some connection problems :)
<ogra> my main work last week was getting the remaining merges done ... there is one open issue with tuxmath where i need input from our font guy (tuxmath depends on a new font and i want a clear statement about the licensing)
<ogra> stgraber1, yeah thats what i would say as well :)
 * ogra giggles 
<pips1> hihi
<pips1> poor fellow
<ogra> i'll try to make the CD redesign hapen for the next milestone, but since i'll be travelling half of next week i cant promise anything
<ogra> worst case it will happen only after new year
<stgraber> argh !!! once it's the VPN, then it's irssi ... :)
<ogra> which indeed is odd since we get less testing
<ogra> ltsp is moved in the ubuntu alternate CD already, but the linux-image-386 package isnt on there yet and we need a slimmed down version of it first it seems ...
<ogra> in ltsp land a lot of things changed and other changes are still to come
<ogra> we have the first pre-release tarball in hardy now, so feel free to play with it (works for me (tm))
<ogra> but be aware it might still break heavily as fedora hasnt merged their patches yet
<ogra> there are two ne apps i wrote on my weekeds for ltsp maintenance, neither is packaged yet but i expet them to be at least in universe for the release
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-image-shell/ is a tool that spawns a shell inside the squashfs image to make changing things easier
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/gtk-build-client/ is a Gui for ltsp-build-client that some of you have seen in boston already
<ogra> code is on https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/ltsp-build-client-gtk and https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/ltsp/ltsp-image-shell
<ogra> beyond all that i'm fiddling with livecd-rootfs to get automatic classmate image building done (which is my main prio atm)
<pips1> ogra: if I understood correctly, your focus will move to the edubuntu "add-on" cd and slightly away from LTSP which is now taken care of by ltsp dev community and ubuntu server team (ubuntu-wise) ?
<ogra> last milestone was alpha1 which we did pretty well i think, (lots of thanks to davmor2 and stgraber for helping with testing)
<ogra> next milestone is alpha2 schedules for dec 20th
<ogra> pips1, i'm only contributing to ltsp nowadays and we have switched upstream to be team maintained ...
<ogra> the prob here is that we're a team of three different distros so every change requires a lot of discussion
<pips1> is there a central "team hub" somewhere?
<ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ is the team
<ogra> oops
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/
<ogra> the first one was the code :)
<ogra> we have members from debian, fedora and ubuntu in the team currently
<pips1> who are the debian and fedora members?
<ogra> ther is code waiting from gentoo to be merged into the main branch and someone is working on a weird implementation for suse based on a tool called kiwi
<ogra> for fedora we have warren togami (who is the founder of fedora)
<pips1> nice
<ogra> for debian vagrant cascadian is the contact
<ogra> (vagrant and i work together since we started work on ltsp5 he's an old chap and was at the seville UDS as well)
<pips1> so vagrant will remain independant/volunteering? or will he join canonical ?
<ogra> so my focus for ltsp is actually more on integration (packaging) and maintenance tools instead of being on the core code
<ogra> he wont, there were several visa issues he couldnt overcome
<ogra> actually i'm in the job we created for him now
<ogra> as i'm working in the distro team and not in the edu team anymore
 * ogra got sent the job description he wrote for vagrants job this week :P
<pips1> heh
<ogra> so ltsp is now cared for by a bigger group which takes a lot load of my sholders but pushes me into some (endless) discussions
<ogra> the time i save is put into the classmate PC work though
<flint> ogra the classmate constraints are a worthy adversary...
<ogra> flint, indeed :)
<flint> :^)
<ogra> but its taking a lot of time to make it autobuild etc ...
<ogra> the former images i built were rather handmade and had a lot hardcoded stuff ... i need to translate all that into the proper tools of the distro
<ogra> so that will eat the majority of my time this cycle
<ogra> chances are good we can reuse all that for the triple e PC from asus though
<ogra> (apart from fixed module sets etc that are only for classmate)
<ogra> stgraber did awesome work on iTalc which finally got uploaded this week :)
<ogra> pease help testing so we find all bugs and have the most rocking iTalc in hardy :)
<stgraber> right, I'd like demo-mode/shutdown/reboot/logout testing especially :)
<ogra> it's currently still in universe and we need to prove stabilty and usability before attempting to pull it to main
<ogra> so each test is valuable :)
<ogra> i must admit i didnt do any work on edubuntu content server yet
<ogra> which is also on my plate for hardy
<stgraber> ogra: you talked about the eeePC, did you try one ?
<ogra> i guess i'll need some extra discussions with the server team as well
<ogra> stgraber, nope, our triple e is travelling through the world atm ... its supposed to land on bryce's desk at some point
<ogra> so he will take care fo all the machine specific stuff but we agreed to work together where it makes sense
 * ogra wonders what he forgot ...
<ogra> any questions wrt tech ?
<stgraber> ogra: ok, it's currently high in my "to buy" list (and so is a good PDA/tablet)
<ogra> well there is that christmas thing oming up :)
<ogra> *coming
 * ogra will wait with new HW until may at least :) i got enough crap lying around here ... 
<stgraber> I would like to see how easy it would be to create a minimal image to boot LTSP over wireless (I'm sure I would have lots of interesting people for deployment in school)
<ogra> you will need to have a initramfs script for it
<ogra> i'm sure its pretty trivial
<ogra> i have some ideas but not the time to do it :)
<stgraber> ogra: yes, I plan to add wpa_supplicant and the wireless stuff in the initramfs
<ogra> sadly you wont be able to get that done really secure as the WLAN key has to be either a bootoption in pxe or has to be put into initramfs
<ogra> both are user accessible via tftp
<ogra> its a similar prob to putting sshd into a thin client chroot/image
<ogra> everyone can steal the keys
<stgraber> ogra: I can have WPA enterprise using SSL certificate, then I can enable/disable the clients
<ogra> right, thats an option
<ogra> ok, i think thats it about tech
<ogra> anyone up to talk about docs ?
<ogra> no LaserJock around ... so i guess not
<ogra> ...
<ogra> artwork ...
<ogra> i guess we need to contat jill for a new wallpaper :)
<ogra> *contact
<ogra> RichEd, can you mail her ?
<RichEd> sure ... do we want to make any suggestions to her ... or let her decide where to start ?
<ogra> so we get our artwork a bit earlier this time and she actually has time for different proposals
<RichEd> i.e. any theme / criteria
<ogra> well, she did the last one and i would assume she knows where we like to go now
<ogra> something neutral edu related :)
<ogra> any other issues about artwork ?
<ogra> pips1, and word about the website theme ?
<ogra> i heard there is work going on
<pips1> I'm wondering... the next release is a LTS one. so stability is a big criteria.
<ogra> pips1, for artwork ?
<ogra> :)
<pips1> nope, sorry ,I was still pondering about tech
<pips1> what needs to be done for improved stability for edubuntu?
<pips1> early and often testing, I suppose :-)
<stgraber> pips1: yes, and we (as a ubuntu testing team member) would like way more testing than for Gutsy (we were only like 4-5 testers for Edubuntu+LTSP)
<ogra> not update to the latest and greatest but rather stay with what we have and stabilize that
<ogra> thats my phillosophy for ltsp at least
<ogra> i.e. i dont see localapps happen in time yet
<ogra> and we have lots of bugs with autologin etc
<pips1> ok, but there are still some kinks with the edubuntu "add-on" to be ironed out, no?
<ogra> so i i do work there it will be rather bugfixing than working on new features
 * stgraber would like to have at least a minimal localapp support (running shutdown/reboot remotely)
<RichEd> ogra: re artwork .... can we assume that the colour palette will remain the same ?
<ogra> pips1, i dont even have an idea yet how to do the addon change ... (i'm still writing on the spec)
<ogra> RichEd, *i* didnt plan to change it ...
<pips1> hmm
<ogra> if others have suggestions they are indeed welcome
<ogra> but that will need some contribution from these *others* as well ;)
<RichEd> ogra: me nods ... the comment was w.r.t. the new "ubuntu black"
<ogra> i dont care about ubuntu here :)
<ogra> ubutu changed the main color every release
<RichEd> or should i say the possible alleged rumour of a new ubuntu black
<ogra> its just a bit more drastic this time
<pips1> so the addon change is somewhat up in the air... that's what you talked about at the beginning of the meeting, right, that you need to talk to cj watson
<RichEd> ( just to be on the safe side :)
<ogra> pips1, no, it will happen in any case
<ogra> its just not my highest prio atm ... thats classmate
<pips1> right, I will happen, but how is still not quite defined :-)
<pips1> ic, right
<pips1> *it will
<Hobbsee> turn it yellow :P
<pips1> hey Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> heya pips1!
<ogra> Hobbsee, it *is* yellow ... different shades every release though
<ogra> (the wllpaper and login screen at least :) )
<pips1> mustard
<ogra> no mustard was dissed
<ogra> that was my breezy theme which JaneW found to boring :)
<pips1> :-)
<pips1> normally women like mustard color
<ogra> pips1, edubuntu addon will depend on ubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-server
<Hobbsee> ogra: really?  the one i saw at LCA wasn't, i thought.
<Hobbsee> pips1: ew.  horrid colour :)
<pips1> :)
<ogra> edubuntu-desktop will be ubuntu-desktop + edu apps and artwork in the future
<pips1> the future = hardy+1 ?
<ogra> edubuntu-server will currently only depend on edubuntu-content-server (nonexistent yet) and expect ubuntu minimal/standard to be in place
<ogra> no hardy
<pips1> ah
<ogra> i.e. you will be able to install from the ubuntu-server CD and if you pop in the edubuntu addon CD you have the option to install -content-server on top
<ogra> which brings moodle and a wiki on the addon cd
<pips1> will you be able to work on edu apps during this cycle at all? or is it mostly up to work LaserJock manages to do?
<pips1> edu (desktop) apps
<ogra> well i will do my best to work on edu apps but i suspect most of my time in hardy will go into classmate and the CD redesign
<Hobbsee> ogra: can i ask the stupid questoin about cd space, with ubuntu-desktop + edu apps?
<pips1> right
<ogra> hardy+1 should be a very relaxed thing for me though :)
<ogra> Hobbsee, whats the issue ?
<Hobbsee> ogra: you should never say that.  they'll give you more work :)
<Hobbsee> ogra: er, won't your cds be oversized?
<ogra> Hobbsee, fine with me ... in hardy+1 i should have gotten rid of 80% of my current duties ;)
<Hobbsee> ogra: ubuntu hardly fits as it is, let alone with more edu apps on top of it
<ogra> Hobbsee, we dont have any desktop on them anymore
<Hobbsee> oh right
<Hobbsee> sorry for the diversion.  continue :)
<ogra> addon *requires* ubuntu-desktop
<Hobbsee> didn't realise you were just talking -minimal and -standard
<Hobbsee> ohhhh!
<Hobbsee> yes, i see.
<ogra> what you get through shipit if you order edubuntu will likely be a two CD sleeve with ubuntu-desktop and edubuntu addon then
<ogra> so we can ship two CDs without having to press two ;)
<pips1> so edubuntu-desktop is a somewhat *configuration* of ubuntu-desktop ? (with own artwork and selection of desktop edu apps)
<ogra> as it is now
<ogra> did you ever look at the edubuntu desktop seeds ?
<pips1> nope :-)
<ogra> its duplicating most of ubuntu desktop
<ogra> the new seeds will rather look like the edubuntu-desktop-kde seed in the future
<ogra> that one depends on kubuntu-desktop and just lists a few kdeedu apps
<ogra> so we have pleanty of space for edu stuff on our CD ;)
<pips1> and edubuntu-server is a *configuration* of ubuntu-server, including LTSP and edu server apps (like moodle and wiki) ..?
<ogra> no
<pips1> no?
<ogra> edubuntu-server is a metapackage or task that will use ubuntu-server as platform but depend on high level apps like moodle/wiki
<ogra> you should be able to install edubuntu-server on any other system as well though
<pips1> what do you mean by any other system?
<ogra> ltsp is out of the loop here
<pips1> ah, edubuntu-server is only the education related server apps (like moodle)
<ogra> well, if you have a standalone classroom server (ltsp) then you will be able to put edubuntu-server on top if you want ... we dont *require* you to use ubuntu-server for it
<ogra> the initial idea was to have these pieces on the ubuntu-server CD
<pips1> oh, there is/will be such a thing as "classrom server" ?!
<ogra> but i dubt i can convince the server team to ship moodle
<ogra> yes, but you will have to do multiple steps to get a classroom server in that scenarion
<ogra> *scenario
<ogra> i.e. get the ubuntu alternate CD to have ltsp and then put edubutu addon on top
<ogra> ltsp will onyl be available through alternate in the future
<ogra> not sure kubuntu will include it as it takes a bit of space for the 386 kernel
<pips1> so in hardy, to get what you previously got with the edubuntu server.... you will need to start with the install of ubuntu-server... and then add the LTSP package? (if wanted) and edubuntu-server package (if wanted) ?
<ogra> no
<ogra> you use ubuntu-alternate+edubuntu-addon
<ogra> but alternate wont be in shipit
<ogra> so you need to download that
<pips1> aha
<ogra> ubuntu alternate will have everything we have now in the edubuntu-server iso apart from edubuntu artwork and edu apps
<pips1> so ubuntu-server provides what (besides a different kernel)? LAMP?
<ogra> ubuntu-server will provide a server platform for the webserver we need for moodle :)
<ogra> later on i plan to have a edubuntu-content-filter package as well that will also use ubuntu-server as platform
<ogra> actually al the implementations we'll do in the future that dont need a GUI should use ubuntu-server as platform
<ogra> but you can indeed use a commandlie install of alternate as well :)
<pips1> what about the whole directory server stuff-under-development (LDAP)... will that be available in the alternate-install-cd only?
<ogra> edubuntu will become a module on top of the ubuntu/kubuntu CDs
<ogra> no, that will be a part of ubuntu-server
<ogra> not alternate
<pips1> ok
<flint> pips1, now that you got it, I will try to get this new Hardy ubuntu-server based distro approach...  Would this information be included in the documentation anywhere?
<ogra> (at least i assume that, no idea what the server team will finally decide here, its hardy+1 anyway)
<ogra> flint, its not *new*
<pips1> oh, LDAP is hardy+1
<pips1> well, makes sense, since hardy is LTS
<ogra> ubuntu-server is around as long as edubuntu is (since breezy)
<ogra> pips1, all that stuff is not in my hands ... the server team will decide (we can give suggestions and make requests though)
<flint> ogra, good point.  It is different and I think quite modular and therefore interesting.
<pips1> i think our slight confusion might stem from the fact that I (and perhaps flint) don't have experience with ubuntu-server (but only edubuntu and perhaps ubuntu).. :-)
<flint> pips1, exactly.
<ogra> yeah, ubuntu-server wasnt really promoted until now
<ogra> it was there but we only got a real server team together during gutsy
<pips1> I installed debian on my server :-)
<ogra> (we hired all these people that cant cope with GUIs you know *g*)
<pips1> hehe
<ogra> pips1, why ?
 * ogra uses ubuntu on all his servers 
<flint> ogra, you were going on about this stuff in Boston, and I thought it was interesting then, and still do.  I suppose it is time to go grab the current copy of ubuntu-server.  GUIs are bad... :^)
<ogra> flint, you should ahve grabbed a pressed CD in boston :)
<ogra> there were plenty of the server CDs around
<flint> Windows Icons Mice and Pointer Systems (WIMPS :^)  damn now I must download.
<stgraber> ogra: they aren't available on shipit, are they ?
<stgraber> I saw them on shop.c.c though
<ogra> i think gutsy is
<pips1> well, acutally, I have a ubuntu server (dapper) test box. and the productive server isn't hosted by me. they have debian by default. I could have chose ubuntu server I would have need to pay a small extra fee for that
<pips1> (sorry, terrible spelling)
<ogra> anyway, we're at 75min already, lets move on
<pips1> last question
<ogra> shoot
<pips1> so if you want a classroom server with LTSP, *and* Moodle and, let's say, some CMS like drupal for the school website, what would a small school do?
<ogra> get ubuntu-alternate and edubuntu addon
<pips1> get the alternate-install version of the ubuntu-server and additionally the edubuntu-add-on, right?
<pips1> ah, ok
<pips1> all clear then
<ogra> then install ubuntu alternate with ltsp ... put edubuntu addon in, convert the desktop through installing edubuntu-desktop and install edubuntu-content-server to get moodle/wiki
<ogra> no, not ubuntu-server
<ogra> ubuntu-alternate should fulfill your needs
<ogra> we'll probably need to put the LAMP stack on the addon so you dont need to have ubuntu-server for that
<pips1> I guess i just need to check out the ubuntu-server cd :-) that will clear my confusion up on what is provided by it :-)
<pips1> ahhhh
<pips1> ok, that makes sense, now
<pips1> so the LAMP would be on the addon too. hmm
<pips1> ok
<flint> ogra, indeed thanks for the update...  anyway a LAMP install is a snap.
<ogra> ubuntu-server is only used to get a minimal system up and have the LAMP stack available ... but you should only use it if you want edubuntu-content-server as standalone headless solution :)
<ogra> if you want the old classrom-server behavior you use ubuntu-alternate
<ogra> plud addon
<ogra> *plus
<pips1> headless solution, hehe
<ogra> ok, lets move on :)
<ogra> website is next ...
<ogra> and news here ?
<pips1> I can just repeat what I read from the two last meeting logs
<ogra> btw pips1 thanks for the updates fo the gutsy release :)
<ogra> great job
<pips1> highvoltage has prepared a new drupal theme based on the theme that fridge uses
<highvoltage> oh, hi guys, got to the office just a few minutes ago, didn't realise the meeting was the early one today
<pips1> however, I read that he can't apply the new theme to the productive edubuntu.org site because of permission probs on the web server...
<highvoltage> I got write access to the server again earlier this week (shew)
<pips1> ah
<pips1> good
<highvoltage> pips1: yep, was fixed on monday
<pips1> great.
<highvoltage> haven't had any time since then do to anything about it
<highvoltage> but at least the blocker is out of the way
<pips1> ok
<pips1> I also read that there was some discussion about welcoming interested people
<highvoltage> LaserJock said that the bottom color of the gradient should be more orangy, so I think I'll just do that too before uploading a new one
<pips1> riched proposed the idea to have an "ambassador" (better name needed)
<highvoltage> is he here?
<RichEd> pips1: yep ... jonathan is going to assume the role for the moment
<RichEd> hi highvoltage :)
<highvoltage> hi RichEd
<pips1> highvoltage was asked to be the first edubuntu ambassador
<pips1> ++ from me
<highvoltage> :)
<RichEd> we had a guinea pig last week who agreed to answer some profiling and fit questions ... I sent him an email
<pips1> long live highvoltage, our ambassador!
 * highvoltage will do some brushing up on social skills
<ogra> and get a tie :)
<ogra> :P
<highvoltage> what? I always wear a tie!
<RichEd> he said he would answer and give comments .. the idea is to "pioneer manually" and then get to a workkable web form with radio buttons ansd checkboxe
<pips1> ah
<RichEd> *workable *checkboxes
<pips1> user-centered design, I like that
<RichEd> so that the "ambassador role" becomes less question & answer and more respond to a formatted email
<highvoltage> pips1: how is your php, and more specifically, how good are you at integrating with drupal?
<highvoltage> pips1: would you be able to put together those forms?
<RichEd> also, if people see a list of categories saying: are you able to do "xx yy zz" then they may connect with a category
 * ogra knows flint just loves php :P
<stgraber> I can give a hand with drupal php code
<pips1> I assume you are talking about some sort of "refined" contact form that sends an email to you? or what?
<stgraber> I already do that all the time with the QA modules for qa.stgraber.org
<RichEd> and I also asked : if you had assistance and mentoring, would you be interested in "xx yy zz" as well, to appeal to peoples ambitions
<pips1> stgraber great
<pips1> there might not be much coding needed though...
<pips1> drupal already provides a lot
<pips1> drupal base
<pips1> and perhaps contributed drupal modules
<stgraber> yes, and writing the module by hand wouldn't take much more than an evening
<ogra> i think tech details can be discussed off-meeting :)
<pips1> right
<pips1> sure, but it would be good to discuss the goal :-)
<ogra> lets get finished :) (quick rundown of community/management from RichEd )
<pips1> perhaps the goal is already clear, but I simply don't know because I wasn't there last meeting :-)
<RichEd> well community is just the exercise described above ... to match volunteers to categories & work tasks
<RichEd> in addition, reviewing launchpad groups ... as we said at last weeks meeting, a prune to revitalist the living branches
<RichEd> revitalise ...
<pips1> so you imagine some single entry-page with some sort of "wizard" / form, that will direct interested people to the correct (online) resources?
<RichEd> so to recap, i'm mailing each group member list and manager saying that we have guidelines for education groups, and we expect:
<RichEd> * a decent wiki page explaining the aims of their group
<RichEd> * and attendance or representation at (at least) a monthly education / edubuntu meeting
<pips1> ok
<RichEd> pips1: the form will probably spit a mail to one person (the ambassador) ... and also send a welcome and thank you email to the person filling in the form
<pips1> ok
<RichEd> we do not really want to fully process automate it ... more just to get people thinking "hey i could do that"
<pips1> I have a printout of the edubuntu related launchpad teams right next to me, with some notes i took on how many members and how active / stale they are.
<RichEd> and to hook them into a quick "fill out and get response" action item
<RichEd> ( pips1: ^ great ... can you mail that to me ? )
<pips1> I could quickly type up a summary of my LP team notes and send them to you , if that is helpful
<pips1> ok, consider it done :-)
<RichEd> pips1: or add here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/Launchpad/Groups/Consolidate?highlight=%28launchpad%29
<pips1> just to summarise quick: there are a total of 19 teams with "edubuntu" in the name. 10 of those teams are managed by people i recognize/know
<RichEd> the problem we talked about last week regarding volunteering was that someone might suggest getting involved, be sent to the "community how you could help page" and in the real world think, I'll come back to look at that properly when I have got this damn LTSP working
<RichEd> with the indended route, if someone talks about helping, we can send them an email with a "pop here to fill in a form" and "meet the ambasador"
<RichEd> that should hook in more to getting an actual connection going
<pips1> The LP teams where I don't know the team admin by name are all Local teams
<RichEd> on the management side ... I hev been tasked with getting documentation together to influence deecision makers ... educational and OEM etc.
<pips1> belgian bolivian brasil italian chile edubuntu-fr
<RichEd> why ubuntu for education
<RichEd> reference cases
<RichEd> and an education solutions area off the ubuntu web site
<RichEd> --- that's what i am busy with now ---
<pips1> ic
<RichEd> oh and some news .... ubuntu is selected on the shortlist for the russian schools tender ...
<pips1> nice
<RichEd> <paste>
<RichEd> I'm delighted to inform You Ubuntu will be one of 4 Linux distros (Alt Linux, Scientific Linux, Mandriva.ru) used in Russian Schools Linux
<RichEd> > > pilot.
<RichEd> > >
<RichEd> > > It is expected to install Linux in 3 different regions in order to
<RichEd> > > evaluate opportunity to migrate majority of Russian schools (~600K PC)
<RichEd> > > to FOSS.
<RichEd> > > Ubuntu will be installed and tested in Tatarstan region (capital - Kazan city).Contract was won by Russian system integrator RBC-soft. Subcontractor > > responsible for Ubuntu installation and maintenance is VNIINS
 * ogra applauds
<ogra> note that we mostly oew RichEd for that, he went to the necessary meetings for that :)
<ogra> *oew
<RichEd> this is early release news, i'll find out more this week and discuss next week ...
<ogra> *owe
<ogra> gah
<RichEd> ogra: mainly vlad ... not me
<ogra> well, you travelled there to present edubuntu/ubuntu :)
<RichEd> they want to partner / share with other countries ... so ogra will help introduce them to guadalinex
<RichEd> note also that the region in question is turkish, not russian, so more language efforts = Tartar
<pips1> Scientific Linux... I met one of the guys a couple of weeks ago
<RichEd> --- and that's all from me for this week ---
 * RichEd needs to get back to his doc work for a meeting coming up
<RichEd> but would also like to make next weeks meeting a good community discussion ... pips1 ? follow up on the launchpad and ambassador stuff
<pips1> ok, will do
<RichEd> get an agreed "welcome email" and also "web form questions" that people are happy with
<pips1>  ^^^ you are saying we should discuss those two points next meeting, right?
<pips1> so we need two wiki pages with the drafts...
<ogra> yeah, let him go back to work ... he's got  busy day :)
<pips1> fine with me, need to go too (my wife needs help)
<pips1> I'll send my LP team notes to RichEd later today
<ogra> dont let your baby starve then :)
<ogra> ok
<pips1> she wont
<ogra> any other business ? :)
<ogra> going once ....
<RichEd> pips1: i'll have a draft up on a wiki page ready for next week ... will send you an pre-view for early comment
<ogra> going twice ....
<pips1> RichEd: great
 * ogra hits the gong ...
<ogra> adjourned, thanks everybody
<pips1> cheers
<ogra> :)
<bryce> morning
<slangasek> bryce: oh, you didn't get the memo sent at 2am local time either, telling us there was no meeting today? :-)
<bryce> dahhh
<mr_pouit> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Dec 20:30: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 23:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00: Server Team meeting
<mr_pouit> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 05 Dec 21:30: Xubuntu meeting | 13 Dec 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
<seisen> @schedule New York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 05 Dec 15:30: Xubuntu meeting | 12 Dec 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 10:00: Server Team meeting
 * pedro_ waves
 * ogasawara is here
 * bdmurray jumps up and down
<pedro_> hah
 * heno waves
<heno> welcome all
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:59. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> I added a topic since the email went out
<heno> [TOPIC] Dapper verification testing - does the QA team have any oustanding tests here?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Dapper verification testing - does the QA team have any oustanding tests here?
<heno> bdmurray: I know you have been working on this
<heno> and reported a failed test
<heno> what's the status of that?
<bdmurray> heno: I think there are a couple more I could do
<bdmurray> I don't recall the failed test you are talking about
<heno> bdmurray: bug 153152
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153152 in hplip "[Gutsy SRU request] Fax utility not adding files to job." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153152
<heno> looks like work is ongoing to re-fix it
<heno> arg, gutsy, sorry
<heno> nevermind :)
<heno> bug 57233 and bug 164449 are the main blockers ATM AFAIK
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 57233 in linux-source-2.6.15 "Minor revision 2.6.15-26 doesn't detect attached SCSI disks to LSI 1030ST" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57233
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 164449 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.15 "undefined symbols in mptspi driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164449
<heno> ogasawara, bdmurray: is any of this stuff we can test?
<heno> or does it need special HW?
<ogasawara> heno:  I don't have the hw for 57233
<bdmurray> heno: nor I
<heno> I have a conf call about this tomorrow. I'd appreciate a review of what's going on with those two bugs from ogasawara (technical background so I can grok the issues) and an overview from bdmurray on what testing we have done for 6.06.2 and what else we might contribute
 * ogasawara nods
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: could you email me your views on that today?
<bdmurray> heno: no problem
<ogasawara> heno: I'll send it after the meeting
<heno> thanks!
<heno> [TOPIC] No-package bug-day
<MootBot> New Topic:  No-package bug-day
<heno> How is it going? :)
<pedro_> I'm getting flooded by bug email that's a good sign :-)
<heno> the green on the page looks nice and the graph too :)
<bdmurray> Pretty well, I think.
<bdmurray> The graph shows some huge drops due to some work I did earlier this week
<heno> seems people have made a head start
<bdmurray> I've stopped that for today though so it only shows bug day work.
<heno> ok
<bdmurray> We had some help on the list from the LoCo teams last Friday
<heno> what packages do these end up with mostly?
<heno> just a rough idea
<bdmurray> I'd guess kernel
<bdmurray> However, I think I could write a query to find out better
<heno> bdmurray: will the new kernel package appear automatically on the top 100 bug list or do you have to add it?
<heno> It had 50 when I looked this morning
<bdmurray> heno: It will have to be added and that was done yesterday
<heno> ah, thanks
<heno> bdmurray: to http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ ? I don't see it
<bdmurray> In the "complete-graphs" section - http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/complete-graphs/linux/
<heno> ok, the ng-graphs. must update my bookmarks :)
<heno> [TOPIC] Selecting the next bug day theme. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus
<MootBot> New Topic:  Selecting the next bug day theme. see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus
<heno> should we be doing this at the meetings or is this done by decree of the bugmaster? ;)
<bdmurray> I'm open to discussing it, but reserve the right to veto. ;)
<Burgundavia> why not have people suggest this to bdmurrary and then he chooses?
<Burgundavia> this suggestion stuff should probably happen out of band, to avoid wasting time at meetings
<heno> Burgundavia: there is already a list of the key candidates at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugDayFocus , but yeah
<Burgundavia> just my 2 cents, butting out now
<heno> ok, so moving on :)
<heno> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO - any takers for these?
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO - any takers for these?
<bdmurray> I think it is important that the package that we pick have debugging documentation and a stock reply
<ogasawara> bdmurray: +1
<heno> bdmurray: good point
<bdmurray> So with that in mind it might be worth letting the compiz people know that they are a candidate for a bug day but we would need some stuff from them
<heno> I've added a point about wiki pages to  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO
<ogasawara> I'll sign myself to some tasks on the the TODO
<pedro_> I'll take the tags ones
<ogasawara> cool, I'll take the 1st replies then
<bdmurray> My intent with the To Do list was to have stuff for the community to do
<bdmurray> Not y'all
<pedro_> sourcercito: wanna take some ? :-)
<heno> davmor2 also adds by email: "I would however like to ask if we could have a pop at improving the docs for the team. "
<heno> sound like he's volunteering for that then ;)
<heno> I wondered if we should add a 'was this page useful?' question to our pages
<sourcercito> i'll take the tags task
<heno> and set up a malone product to track improvement requests on the debugging pages
<sourcercito> if it's ok
<pedro_> sourcercito: it's totally ok, thanks you!
<heno> then we can assign those bugs to the responsible devs :)
<sourcercito> noprob, anytime
<bdmurray> In regards to the tags task I had a larger idea about that
<bdmurray> The tags for a package should be listed at it's debugging page and the Bugs/Tags page should have an include for specific packages
<bdmurray> To reduce redundancy and number of places to edit things
<heno> you still have some generic tags, but yeah that makes sense
<heno> how many tags do we expect for a given package though?
<bdmurray> heno: in regards to the was this helpful maybe a table a the bottom with || Helped || Didn't Help ||  ?
<heno> the kernel will have up to 10 perhaps, nm 2-3?
<heno> bdmurray: yeah, where would the links go?
<bdmurray> I personally think that going forward tags will be a useful to divide a package with a lot of bugs into more managable subgroups.
<bdmurray> s/useful/useful way/
<heno> we need a voting plugin moin ...
<heno> bdmurray: so you imagine the same tags being used on a range of packages then
<bdmurray> So the number of tags could grow a fair bit - especially with the kernel
<bdmurray> heno: I think some tags apply across packages (metabug) and some can subdivide a package (feisty2gutsy for update-manager)
<bdmurray> The majority being useful to subdivide a package
<heno> ok, as long as we are systematic about it, that sounds fine
<bdmurray> sourcercito: If you just want to add the tags to the Bugs/Tags page though that would be great.
<heno> should we visit this TODO list regularly at these meetings?
<sourcercito> bdmurray, sure
<heno> ok, next
<heno> [TOPIC] UDS activity report posted here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Proceedings
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS activity report posted here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Proceedings
<heno> This is just FYI, since I asked for input last time
<pedro_> cool!
<bdmurray> Looked good to me
<ogasawara> same here
<heno> [TOPIC] Moving kernel bugs to the 'linux' package - how is that going; how can others help? -- https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/
<MootBot> New Topic:  Moving kernel bugs to the 'linux' package - how is that going; how can others help? -- https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/
<heno> 56 bugs so far
<heno> that may grow
<ogasawara> I'm sure it will
<ogasawara> I've done most of the 'hardy-kernel-candidate' ones
<ogasawara> there's just a handfull left that I'm waiting for responses on
<heno> I'm surprised there weren't more. Did you close some along the way?
<ogasawara> yah
<bdmurray> ogasawara: did you look into disabling the l-s-2.6.24 package somehow?
<ogasawara> bdmurray: haven't looked into that yet
<heno> right, so these are ones where the sumbitters are active, cool
<ogasawara> heno: there are a lot of existing bugs in Gutsy that still need to be addressed
<heno> does apport DTRT now with package name?
<ogasawara> no idea
<bdmurray> I don't think apport reports kernel crashes yet
<heno> ogasawara: indeed. Is there a plan/schedule for that; can other's help?
<ogasawara> other's can definitely help
<bdmurray> We should be able to automate some of that
<ogasawara> I've got a stock reply for testing the Hardy kernel
<heno> would a bug day be appropriate?
<ogasawara> definitely
<bdmurray> I think we should wait until there is a Live CD with 2.6.24 though
<heno> I guess volunteers often find kernel bugs tricky to triage
<ogasawara> bdmurray: agreed.  I think reporters are a little hesitant to manually install
<bdmurray> When is Alpha 2 scheduled for?
<pedro_> is that planned for an Alpha?
<pedro_> jeje
<ogasawara> Alpha2 should have the new Hardy kernel
<heno> dec 19th?
<bdmurray> That's unfortunate with the brak
<bdmurray> s/brak/break/
<ogasawara> oh yah
<heno> 20th in fact
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<heno> we could do a kernel day the 19th ; it should be on the CDs by then
<ogasawara> sounds good to me
<heno> I'll make some periodic stabs at Gutsy kernel bugs as well (seeking guidance when needed)
<heno> great, any other topics?
<bdmurray> Any news on qa.ubuntu.com?
<heno> I met with James yesterday and made the case for it again ...
<heno> So, any day now :)
<heno> We are not the only team having some trouble with this :/
<heno> There are no real blockers apart from IS time
<bdmurray> Okay.
<bdmurray> I'm surprised at the quantity of bugs without a package coming in.
<heno> bdmurray: I'll follow up with an email. could you send me a bullet point list of how you want to use the machines, for graphs queries etc.?
<bdmurray> heno: sure
<heno> bdmurray: coming in just now, or the existing pile?
<bdmurray> It seems like every 5th bug or so doesn't have one
<bdmurray> And assigning packages is not something I want to do all the time
<ogasawara> bdmurray:
<ogasawara> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<bdmurray> So I think we need to better advertise FindRightPackage and Help -> Report a problem
<ogasawara> so I was noticing on there the "report a new bug" link defaults to just Ubuntu
<bdmurray> Right, but before that I've put in the 2 things I just mentioned
<heno> the LP page should have links to info and we should circulate links better
<bdmurray> Maybe writing up Help -> Report a problem for the Fridge would help
<bdmurray> Burgundavia: we could do that right?
<heno> anyone care to comment on my mail to to bugsquad list about advertising these pages
<heno> that's a good idea
<bdmurray> heno: I personally try to educate bug reporters when I modify the bug and have added some of that to the Bugs/Replies page
<bdmurray> Information about how to change the status of a bug and the importance of reporting it about a package etc
<heno> yes, it could link to an even more generic page though
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures IMO
<bdmurray> I think that is reasonable for the domain specific stock replies
<heno> and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs even
<Burgundavia> bdmurray: absolutely
<bdmurray> "Please include the information requested at BLAH which is part of the Debugging Procedures page at BLAH-BLAH"
<heno> creating a header linking between the pages will help
<bdmurray> s/page/series/
<heno> For further information on debugging see <URL>
<heno> Ok, so we are 1 min from an hour
<heno> let's close the meeting here
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:58.
<heno> we can continue in #u-bugs and #u-testing
<heno> thanks everyone!
<pedro_> thanks!
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
<oldmanstan> so... meeting? :)
<posingaspopular> is it now oldmanstan?
<seisen> hello gentlemen
<posingaspopular> seisen: is there a specific agenda for this meeting?
<oldmanstan> it's on the wiki somewhere
<oldmanstan> hit up the fridge events calendar
<seisen> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/47015/
 * posingaspopular is looking at it atm
<posingaspopular> how many more people are we waiting on?
<mr_pouit> I guess everyone (4?) is here... :/
<posingaspopular> is Cody supposed to be here mr_pouit?
<mr_pouit> yes
<mr_pouit> (well, at least he didn't say the contrary ^^)
<posingaspopular> he's on in the -doc chan or -xubuntu so im going to assume he's not online
<seisen> so are we having a meeting
<posingaspopular> im okay with having a meeting. how many people normally show up? im usually afk during these meetings.
<mr_pouit> well, not so many, so I guess we can start ;)
<seisen> I have no idea this is my first one
<mr_pouit> anyway, we can try to do it now
<seisen> if I want to help with the Xubuntu Documentation you should I send an email too
<oldmanstan> seisen: me :)
<oldmanstan> you can send mail to the regular ubuntu docs list (just include xubuntu in the subject)
<seisen> ok thanks does it matter I haven't worked on the documentation before
<posingaspopular> nope!
<oldmanstan> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<posingaspopular> seisen: join #ubuntu-doc as well
<seisen> I'm on there right now
<oldmanstan> that is the address seisen, register at lists.ubuntu.com
<seisen> already ready registered
<oldmanstan> ok cool
<oldmanstan> yeah, as long as xubuntu is in the subject line somebody will see it
<seisen> ok
<oldmanstan> i also lurk on #xubuntu-devel, we talk about docs on there a lot
<seisen> ok how do you become a xubuntu developer anyway
<oldmanstan> contribute many patches and then they eventually give you access to the repos
<seisen> ok I have no idea what you are talking about
<mr_pouit> seisen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted ;)
<oldmanstan> docs is a good place to start if you aren't up on packaging and such
<seisen> thanks mr_pouit
<seisen> ya I think I will stick with the docs for now
<oldmanstan> ok, so no meeting i assume, peace all
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Dec 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-06
<kraut> moin
<greg-g> @time Detroit
<ubotu> Current time in America/Detroit: December 06 2007, 10:31:49 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days
<greg-g> @time UTC
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 06 2007, 15:32:03 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 6 days
 * pitti waves
<Riddell> hi
 * ArneGoetje waves
<calc> hi
<evand> hi
<asac> hi
 * ogra waves
 * mvo waves
 * lool waves back
<dholbach> hi
<Riddell> do we have an agenda?
<dholbach> there's only one thing I want to talk about: how to make daily pings for http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ unnecessary
<Riddell> dholbach: daily e-mails instead?
<Riddell> might get a bit ignorable I suppose
<pitti> best solution: just do it
<dholbach> yes and a bit irksome for me :)
<lool> dholbach: You could cron an email all N days for people actually having some sponsoring to do
<pitti> more emails won't help, I'm afraid
<dholbach> and it's just some bugs that are open for several weeks without any comment
<Hobbsee> dholbach: use the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! â¢
<pitti> you should already have one email from LP bugs in your inbox
<dholbach> most people do a good job
<pitti> if you ignore that, you can as well ignore the nagmails
<lool> pitti: I often miss it for some reason
<pitti> does anyone actually feel that he doesn't *know* that he needs to sponsor something?
<lool> While I could easily prioritize the reminder ping
<seb128> dholbach: I'm not sure that the daily IRC notice as any impact on people who don't look to their bugs
<pitti> i.e. I don't think that the notifications are the problem, it's about actually doiung it
<dholbach> seb128: that's my experience too
<lool> I personally discovered the sponsoring requests that I had to process via pings from Daniel; at least twice
<pitti> if anyone feels that he misses the bug email, we should solve this with better email filtering instead
<pitti> not by producing more email noise
<seb128> lool: you should read bugs you get from launchpad ;-)
 * pitti urges people to look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFilter
<lool> pitti: The thing is it's easy to miss an incremental update to your TODO, but it's more reliable to get a full dump of your TODO
<lool> seb128: I do, but sometimes I think that I'm subscribed for another reason
<pitti> lool: just look at the page then
<pitti> lool: above mail explains how to filter by reason
<seb128> lool: well, there is http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ where you can pull too
<lool> pitti: (I've read the page)
<pitti> i. e. you can sort "you were subscribed because you need to sponsor this" separately (e. g. into your daily high-prio ubuntu folder instead of 'bugs')
<pitti> if you guys want I add a specific example for sponsoring there
<pitti> but it's straightforward to do
<lool> I'll need to reorganize my mail reading then
<pitti> lool: do you feel that this would be sufficient or would you need a different kind of notifictaion/
<pitti> ?
<pitti> all others, too
<asac> i think its fine.
<asac> (good enough)
<dholbach> do you feel that weekly/monthly "this bug is waiting in the queue for weeks now" summary is helpful?
<lool> I was personally fine with Daniel's notification, especially since they helped me discover things I should have sponsored and didn't; I wasn't too bothered when I had nothing to sponsor, but still made the cron proposal as to avoid this; it seems I'm the only person not capable to prioritize sponsoring requests, so I'll simply fix this
<pitti> email has the advantage of being sticky until you delete it, and doesn't interrupt what you currently do, contrary to IRC pings
<dholbach> lool: no no no, you're absolutely not
<lool> Yeah, I'd prefer an email in all cases
<lool> (when given the choice with an IRC ping)
<cjwatson> we have people who like one or the other; so just do both?
<seb128> the idea is also that dholbach should not have to ping people on IRC ;-)
 * pitti prefers email, too; sponsorings are urgent, but only urgent as in 'do it today', not 'drop what you do and do it instantly'
<lool> cjwatson: Some people hate the other it seems :)
<ogra> seb128, he could hire a cheap berlin student :P
<pitti> lool: oh, I wouldn't mind IRC pings; as long as I know that I am in control of bug mail I can just ignore it :)
<dholbach> and it's ok if it takes a while to get the review/sponsoring done, sometimes patches are hairy or need to go through a couple of iteration
<dholbach> iterations
<dholbach> the problem is that some patches go uncommented for weeks and months
<seb128> ogra: isn't dholbach that already? ;-)
<Riddell> dholbach: how is your list made?
<dholbach> Riddell: all bugs of the list links on the page, minus the 'incomplete ones'
 * lool thinks he didn't want to bump the priority of these bugs over the others nor split them out in their own queue; but it seems it's the only sane thing to do
<ogra> seb128, lol
<dholbach> Riddell: "responsible" = subscribers+assignee-(people not in ubuntu-dev)
<lool> Admitting I miss sponsoring subscriptions and need to special case them is admitting that I don't read my bug mail properly to some level
<pitti> lool: don't worry; I guess most of us (except seb128 of course) can't keep up with their package bug mail
<pitti> but all of us should keep up with bug mail which is sent because someone subscribed you
<dholbach> I'd like to point out that the discussion is not about lool and how he reads bug email. He generally does a good job on sponsoring bugs. I'd like to hear opinions from others too.
<seb128> pitti: I've stopped replying to every single of those now, I'm just read them and let pedro do most of the triage ;-)
 * seb128 hugs pedro_
<slangasek> lool: well, there doesn't seem to be any mail notification telling me that I've been subscribed to the bug as a sponsor, so "properly reading" the mail seems to *require* pitti's recommended mail filtering
<lool> dholbach: But then if I'm the only one liking the system, I should be the one defending it or change my habbits
 * pedro_ hugs seb128 back 
<dholbach> lool: you're the only one who spoke up :)
<cjwatson> sponsorship bugs are, of course, not the only classes of bugs that developers need to be reminded about
<slangasek> (which precludes imap+mutt as a mail solution for work mail, which I'm not currently keen to switch away from)
<lool> slangasek: I actually show the headers which pitti speaks of in Mutt when reading the mail :)
<cjwatson> release-critical bugs are another rather obvious one
<slangasek> lool: heh, ok.
<pitti> slangasek: (I do use imap+mutt+offlineimap, what's the problem with it?)
<cjwatson> and bugs that people have effectively asked to be reminded about, by means of targeting them to a milestone
<slangasek> pitti: no procmail in the pipeline?
<pitti> slangasek: well, that's done on the server
<pitti> (OT here, sorry; will move that to #u-devel)
<cjwatson> it seems that part of the objection to reminders about sponsorship bugs is that it elevates them above more important things, but perhaps the real problem there is that we don't have a routine mechanism for reminding people about the more important things
<lool> dholbach: Ah what about reminding about *old* bugs?
<lool> dholbach: IOW, checking since how long the bug should have been sponsored, and send a reminder in this case?
<lool> cjwatson: I fully agree it would be a nice addition
<dholbach> lool: that'd involve parsing of the activity log of the bug to automate it
<pitti> cjwatson: or a standard way of prioritizing bugs
<cjwatson> we were just talking about that on the distro team leads call
<cjwatson> and I expect we'll talk about it some more on the call tomorrow to firm up procedures for bug nominations
<pitti> some people use tags, some (like me) use 'in progress' for the ones they are tackling next, some have it in their head, etc.
<lool> dholbach: Can you simplify that if it's about bugs which have a patch since long and are to be sponsored?
<cjwatson> pitti: agreed
<dholbach> lool: I'll think about how to achieve that
<Riddell> lool: why?  I also want to know about patches which have appeared recently
<lool> Would it be possible to use the Assignee and simply send people a list of bugs they are assigned to once a month?
<pitti> Riddell: isn't that what bug mail is for?
<dholbach> Riddell: just as a measure to find out which bugs I really need to prod people :)
<Riddell> pitti: sure, but things are easily missed there
<lool> Riddell: Only for the *reminder*; you'd still get the current subscription notifications
<dholbach> lool: the problem with using assignees is that nobody else will dare to work on the bug and do it instead of you
<pitti> Riddell: true that
<dholbach> it's like a "lock"
<cjwatson> I think assignees *should* be used for release-critical bugs
<cjwatson> not necessarily for everything, but for things that have to get done, somebody should generally be on the hook for them
 * slangasek nods
 * bryce nods
<dholbach> OK
<lool> dholbach: But then if you assigned someone for sponsoring, certainly that person should do it and not another, otherwise you risk work duplication?
<pitti> agreed
<cjwatson> that doesn't necessarily go for sponsorship though
<pitti> that works well with merges already, after all
<lool> Perhaps instead of not using the assignee for sponsoring, we could use the assignee and reassign if he's too busy?
<dholbach> lool: we had cases where I assigned bugs to people of the distro team and community folks would have done them during the week they were sitting in the queue
<lool> dholbach: In which case it's possible that two people reviewed the same patches?
<dholbach> it's only natural to think "ok, the assignee is surely going to do it"
<pitti> right
<lool> I personally wouldn't take other bugs than mine from the list you sent on IRC
<dholbach> the sponsoring queue (for community developers) is driven by a general "hey I'm interested in working on this"
<dholbach> not driven by "somebody decided that I should do it"
<dholbach> so people triage the queue and work on things
<dholbach> that's a big difference
<lool> Ok, then perhaps have the bugs open for anyone early, don't subscribe individuals, then assign somebody if it takes too long?
<dholbach> I like to make people aware of them early so they have a chance of getting done quickly
<lool> Like first week is common queue, no assignee, second week pick an assignee because it shouldn't wait too long
<dholbach> I don't feel that "wait until somebody takes care of the bug" is going to fix the problem
<dholbach> the assignee thing didn't work either - we still had bugs sitting there for weeks
<pitti> and the current round-robin(ish) approach also ensures that we share the load
<lool> But it's easier to prod people who are assigned a bug
<dholbach> that's what I use the sponsoring page for
<Riddell> dholbach: what's actually wrong with daily pings?
<dholbach> it lists the developers who are aware of the bug
<dholbach> Riddell: it's work for me and it still doesn't work for some people
<dholbach> it's not an optimal process
<dholbach> I mean I don't mind doing it, but reminding somebody 5 or 6 times of a patch - I don't feel that scales once we have more contributors
<lool> dholbach: I didn't quite get the exact drawbacks of my latest proposal which are not shared by the other proposals?
<ogra> dholbach, you could add a function to ubotu :)
 * ogra hides
<bryce> how many bugs need sponsoring week to week?
<lool> bryce: dholbach told us it would increase sharply with the outreach program
<cjwatson> what we were discussing in the team leads call was having each team lead bring up assigned release-critical bugs on a weekly basis in their meetings
<cjwatson> we could add sponsored bugs to that, since after all we've committed Canonical time to code review
<dholbach> 275 mails on ubuntu-main-sponsors last month, 700 on ubuntu-universe-sponsors
<dholbach> bryce: ^
<seb128> dholbach: mails, or different threads?
<dholbach> mails
<dholbach> cjwatson: so a weekly status mail with long-standing bugs would probably help?
<pitti> ATM it's maybe one or two bugs a week?
<pitti> (per assignee)
<lool> dholbach: (I personally feel sorry that you have to script things around launchpad and ping us manually; which is why I proposed using the assignee field)
<pitti> dholbach: can your list be sorted by age? i. e. time since you assigned the bug to someone?
<lool> dholbach: But perhaps this needs more specialized pages in launchpad?
<dholbach> lool: as I said... it's not your fault, not at all and I tried the assignee thing before; some MOTUs were really unhappy about it because the lock on the bug was taken for too long
<dholbach> pitti: that'd require parsing of the activity log - I'll wrap my head around it
<cjwatson> dholbach: perhaps
<seb128> is anybody finding weekly mails useful? I think a webpage with the summary is better for that sort of thing
<pitti> dholbach: ok; nevermind if it's too complicated
<dholbach> pitti: I'll think about it
<slangasek> seb128: polling-- :)
<seb128> too many mails-- ;-)
<lool> seb128: I wouldn't visit every week
<cjwatson> dholbach: I'd certainly like to have something whereby we could ensure some kind of consistency across team leads about what we're nagging about
<pitti> --weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them
<lool> I would have to write a cron sending me an email with the URL to that page :)
<seb128> I tend to not read all those weekly mails on the debian lists
<seb128> just hit delete on them and find them annoying
<cjwatson> I'm not sure *everybody* has to visit it - having each person's manager look at it weekly or so could do
<dholbach> can we maybe get quick action items out of the discussion? I don't feel this should take up all the time of the meeting
<cjwatson> and for everyone else it could be something you look at when feeling industrious
<lool> seb128: I find them great!
<seb128> ok, so as pitti said "--weekly mails, but I'm not opposed to getting and ignoring them"
<dholbach> ok... I'll wrap my head around "age of the patch" idea
<lool> dholbach: Should we list proposals?  and if we don't get consensus vote for them?
<cjwatson> I think we should institute weekly mails and ensure that they can be trivially procmailed, and then review in a few weeks to find out who's still actually reading them
<dholbach> and let you know about it - up until then I could do those weekly mails instead
<dholbach> ok... I'll take care of that then
<lool> Thanks Daniel!
<dholbach> de rien
 * pitti hugs dholbach
<asac> sounds good
 * dholbach hugs y'all
 * mvo hugs dholbach
<cjwatson> what's next on the agenda
<cjwatson> ?
<Riddell> we have an agenda?
<cjwatson> I was wondering
<Riddell> 65 merges to go http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<cjwatson> one item which was raised was the purpose of this meeting
<pitti> 92
<Riddell> oh yes, I was reading the wrong one
<cjwatson> since we have a lot more Canonical distro staff than we used to, we no longer drag everyone into a giant meeting on a weekly basis
<Riddell> that's a lot of merges
<cjwatson> and instead we have smaller team meetings
<cjwatson> the majority of those are public
<cjwatson> is it necessary to have this "everyone" meeting any more, and if so, what can people expect to get out of it?
<bryce> are there going to be many topics that need discussion with the whole development team?
<cjwatson> bryce: not many, though the sponsorship one above wasn't a bad example
<pitti> it's now too infrequent to be useful IMHO; few things can wait for a month
<pitti> but right, above example just proved me wrong
<pitti> discussion about policy and effective working can wait that long
<cjwatson> (hoary kickoff!)
<lool> I personally find myself attending too many meetings along the week, so would enjoy smaller + shorter meetings; a high number of people might imply longer meetings
 * dholbach agrees with lool
<cjwatson> if a meeting isn't useful, it shouldn't be happening, certainly
<dholbach> it's just important to have summaries of those meetings, so you can find out about things which happened in a meeting you weren't in
<pitti> so maybe we should only actually have it if there's an agenda
<lool> Or schedule a meeting each time we need to discuss something in common
<lool> Which is the same :)
<cjwatson> the platform meetings have been half-private half-public, but in practice there's been very little that needed to be private there, so perhaps we can simply have all of those on #ubuntu-meeting
<asac> ack
<cjwatson> I think most of the other team meetings are entirely public
<lool> +1
<bryce> agreed
<asac> actually i think the idea to have small meetings open for everyone is the right way.
<cjwatson> so if we simply put them all on the Fridge and removed the "everyone" meeting, would that work?
<pitti> +1
<bryce> +1
<asac> +1
<pitti> we can still invite guys from other teams to a particular meeting if needed
<ogra> +1
<cjwatson> and indeed many of you do already cross over
<cjwatson> which is excellent
<seb128> +1
<tedg> ++ ;)
<cjwatson> this may be the least unpopular proposal in some time. Does anyone dissent? :-)
<mdz_> sorry, I've been having network difficulties
 * lool . o O ( Non-democratic vote spotted! )
<cjwatson> mdz_: [proposal: cancel this meeting, make all the other team meetings public unless there's a specific reason, put them all on the Fridge. No dissent so far ...]
<calc> +1 (for having meetings in public
<lool> cjwatson: On a related topic, can we rename the meeting to something else than "Community..."?
 * calc was distracted by a phone call
<cjwatson> lool: well, if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to be renamed
<lool> Perfect
<mdz_> cjwatson: apart from the fridge dysfunction, I don't see an issue
<mdz_> that sounds like more or less current practice
<Riddell> team leads to e-mail fridge-devel with meeting times?
 * Hobbsee wonders if someone random will yell "i object"
<cjwatson> who are fridge-devel right now?
<Riddell> nixternal does my calendar updates
<Riddell> otherwise corey, mrevell and nali seem active
<cjwatson> ok
<Riddell> any other business?
<cjwatson> nothing from me
<slangasek> public service announcement: DebianImportFreeze deadline is one week away, please finish your merges, if you need help merging all the packages still on your list then please ask. :)
<cjwatson> +1
<cjwatson> some people have quite a few, while others have capacity
<ArneGoetje> anything else or is the meeting adjourned?
<Riddell> ArneGoetje: I think you're free to go :)
<ArneGoetje> Riddell: thanks. Good night!
<cjwatson> whoops, I thought somebody had adjourned the meeting but nobody did. Adjourned. :-)
<asac> bye ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-07
<ardchoille> When is the next meeting to be held?
<Palintheus> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 07 2007, 05:56:44 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 5 days
<ardchoille> Palintheus: Ah, thanks
<Palintheus> :)
<kraut> moin
<persia> Right.  Seems to be consensus that this is now the MOTU meeting, although it doesn't seem to have been scheduled anywhere :)
<persia> No agenda though (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings), so it should be quick.
<sistpoty> maybe we could use an announcement mail for next time (from anyone who remembers the date *g*)
<persia> Any volunteers to take minutes?
<sistpoty> ok
<persia> sistpoty: Good idea.
<persia> Any volunteers to send announcements (1 week before, 1 day before)?
 * DktrKranz offersa
<DktrKranz> *offers
<sistpoty> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:09. The chair is sistpoty.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sistpoty> #action sistpoty takes minutes
<sistpoty> damn, what did I do wrong?
<persia> [ACTION] sistpoty takes minutes
<sistpoty> thanks
 * persia isn't the chair, so please repeat the statement :)
<sistpoty> [ACTION] DktrKranz will send announcement mails
<MootBot> ACTION received:  DktrKranz will send announcement mails
<sistpoty> [ACTION] sistpoty will write minutes
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sistpoty will write minutes
<sistpoty> persia: can I hand over meeting chair to you? *g*
<persia> sistpoty: I don't think so.  If you did, I'd post a link to the topic, and call for any other business.
<persia> Errr..  link to the agenda (to MootBot)
<sistpoty> persia: damn...
<ScottK> Are we having a MOTU meeting?
<sistpoty> ScottK: yes
<persia> ScottK: Trying :)
<ScottK> Great.
<proppy> hi ScottK, hi persia
<DktrKranz> Here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<proppy> hi all :)
<DktrKranz> Not very much to discuss, though
<ScottK> Should be short.
<sistpoty> [LINK]: agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received: : agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<geser> that's a big agenda :)
<sistpoty> ok, any business not on the agenda? *g*
<proppy> *agree on date and time of next meeting*
<Nafallo> lol
<ScottK> Any feedback on using interdiff for upgrades?
<sistpoty> [TOPIC] ScottK: feedback on using interdiff for upgrades
<MootBot> New Topic:  ScottK: feedback on using interdiff for upgrades
<ScottK> Anyone?
<persia> I've heard a few people complain, and have had a request to find something easier for sponsors.
 * Nafallo didn't know we could :-)
<DktrKranz> I had a couple of reviews using interdiff, and I found it of great aid
<ScottK> persia: Could we script something for interdiff to make it easier?
<Nafallo> oh, we are talking about debdiff stuff :-)
<persia> ScottK: I have a rough script at http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff, but it needs a fair bit of work to be less fragile.
<persia> (also, it calculates the same thing a couple different ways, which is wasteful)
<sistpoty> [LINK]: http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff
<MootBot> LINK received: : http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~persia/process-interdiff
<ScottK> persia: Maybe RainCT would work on it.  He seems to like that kind of thing.
<persia> Err...  That's not a good home: if we stay with interdiff, someone (likely me) needs to fix it, and put it in ubuntu-dev-tools
<persia> ScottK: Good idea.
<ScottK> Plus he's not here, so he can't object if we assign him an action ;-)
<sistpoty> [IDEA]: RainCT might want to work on interdiff for sponsoring
<MootBot> IDEA received: : RainCT might want to work on interdiff for sponsoring
<sistpoty> [IDEA]: move the script to ubuntu-dev-tools
<MootBot> IDEA received: : move the script to ubuntu-dev-tools
<ScottK> Once it's suitable for general use.
<sistpoty> ok, more feedback to this topic?
<ScottK> Not from me?
<persia> cjwatson pointed out that the "full interdiff" isn't very interesting, and that the new diff.gz alone might be eaiser.  I just haven't tested & evaluated that yet, but I think I agree.
<ian_brasil> hi, what is interdiff?
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Interdiff
<ScottK> I think what is wanted is diff of the debian dir + diff from the new upstream.
<persia> ScottK: A debdiff gets that, but they need to be evaluated separately.
<ScottK> Agreed.
<sistpoty> ok, let's move on, shall we?
<persia> Moving on sounds good.  I'll propose something else if I can meet all the good points that DktrKranz likes and make it easier for sponsors.
<ScottK> Are there any MOTUs planning to support these packaging jams that Jono has proposed?
<sistpoty> [TOPIC] supporting packaging jams
<MootBot> New Topic:  supporting packaging jams
<Nafallo> what's that?
<DktrKranz> ScottK, I proposed it to our LoCo, we are planning to have a meeting where we'll discuss about it
 * ScottK looks for jono's blog
<persia> I tend to think of Packaging Jams as means to populate PPAs, and not to affect universe directly.
<ian_brasil> i thought package jams were like install fests but for packaging
<persia>  [LINK] http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
<ScottK> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1082
<DktrKranz> Scott's mail is good. Maybe focusing on bugfix (as Debian does) can be more helpful
<persia> Even package updates would be better for us.
 * ScottK is concerned he may be raising expectations urealistically.
<ScottK> That and focusing on what most MOTUs would view as the wrong problem.
 * sistpoty thinks that it's a great idea, which could make LoCo teams more integrated to MOTU
<Nafallo> ah
<ScottK> But how many LoCo teams have a local pet MOTU?
<ian_brasil> not many i would say
<DktrKranz> Hard to say
<Nafallo> where local is the keyword :-)
<sistpoty> ScottK: not many, and I'd hope that this would change
<persia> sistpoty: We've already about 900 packages that are Ubuntu-local, with only about half receiving any maintenance.  Can't we push them towards another means of integrating?  Is there that much demand to be able to package new software?
<ian_brasil> certainly in brazil we do not
<Nafallo> Sweden HAD me, but we were all spread out.
<jcastro> Packaging Jams don't have to be /new/ software.
<Nafallo> maybe this is more the the city teams?
<Nafallo> s/the/for/
<persia> jcastro: Ah.  That's better then.  All the information I'd seen gave that impression.
<jcastro> I know the one local to me (michigan) covers things like debdiffs and workflow and stuff
<imbrandon> i'm late :(
<geser> Ubuntu Bug Parties?
<sistpoty> persia: imho the goal is not (or should not be) to get new software into ubuntu, but rather to knot the ties between MOTU and LoCos
<persia> "Packaging Jam" is a fine name, as long as it's not all about packaging new software.
<jcastro> yes, what sistpoty said!
<persia> sistpoty: Then we agree :)
<ScottK> sistpoty: Reading Jono's blog, I don't think he agrees.
<imbrandon> ScottK: he does, i talked to him a bit on jabber about it, it just wasent clear in the blog
<ScottK> Did Jono discuss this with anyone before announcing it?
<DktrKranz> NEW software is covered by frequent REVU days, so covering unloved packages will be good, especially if we save some bugs for these sessions.
<persia> DktrKranz: REVU only happens 30 weeks a year, which can be frustrating for people uploading the other 22.
<persia> ScottK: Jono at least pointed at Michigan as a good example: if the practice there is debdiffs & workflow, I'm not sure it's all bad.
<sistpoty> ScottK: I guess this boils down to the question if new packages should generally be accepted/avoided as means of getting people involved, which I'd rather discuss as a separate topic
<imbrandon> persia: we need to make REVU more dynamic in that it checks $time-of-year and displays a notice to that effect, should be easy nuff, right sistpoty ?
<jcastro> I think that instead of "packaging" the word should be "maintain" or something instead
<jcastro> clearly the goal of a Jam is to find more MOTUs
<sistpoty> imbrandon: -ENOPARSE... what should revu do?
<persia> sistpoty: I don't think it's related to that at all.  Both are good, it's just that I (at least) would prefer bugfix as the default introduction.
<persia> jcastro: I'd much prefer a goal to find more Contributors, who may become MOTUs.
<jcastro> ah, good word.
<imbrandon> sistpoty: check the time of the release ( maybe manualy set ) and display a notice about ..... i'll poke you after the meeting in #ubuntuwire
<sistpoty> imbrandon: ok
<ScottK> persia: I don't think it's that simple.  I think if this does result in actual work getting done, it's better for Ubuntu that it be fixing/upgrading than new packages.
<ScottK> So if we are going to support this initiative, I think it'd be good for it to focus on what we think most needs doing.
<persia> ScottK: I agree with jcastro that the focus is education & recruitment, rather than generating work done.
<imbrandon> persia: EXACTLY
<sistpoty> persia, ScottK: but we can agree that getting more contributors via loco teams is good? I think the tasks we support more or less for new contributors are a topic that not only affects loco teams, right?
<persia> I'd prefer bugfixing / upgrades, but I've seen a few people come from NEW who did good, so I won't shoot them.
<persia> sistpoty: Yes.
<jcastro> it doesn't say explicitly that jams are for new packages
<sistpoty> [IDEA] jams are a means to get people involved for MOTU
<MootBot> IDEA received:  jams are a means to get people involved for MOTU
<ScottK> sistpoty: I think that improving the MOTU/package ratio is good.  It doesn't follow then that all ways of getting contributors are a positive.
<persia> ScottK: Sure, but that's rightly a separate topic/
<imbrandon> it seems people are equating "packaging" to mean new packages only, maintaince of packages falls under "packaging" and thus "packaging jams"
<ScottK> persia: I see it as core to how I feel about the idea.
<persia> imbrandon: Yes.  It's entirely nomenclature.
<imbrandon> yay \0/
<ScottK> Well if you read the wiki about it, it's clearly orient towards new packages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
<sistpoty> ok, how about generalizing the current topic then to new packages vs. bug fixing for motu-hopefuls (or any better fitted title)?
<ScottK> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/RunningPackagingJam
<imbrandon> ScottK: sure, because thats what most new contributors are intrested in, but that dosent mean they will stay with that 100%  forever etc, i started in the NEW queue :)
<persia> s/packagers/maintainers/, s/packaging/maintenance/ ?
<sistpoty> persia: +1
<ScottK> imbrandon: I did too, but that isn't the best way I think.
<persia> imbrandon: I disagree.  Most people want to help, and don't have a lot of focus.
<ScottK> persia: Will you take an action to revise that wiki page then?
<imbrandon> ScottK: we should still support all ways and not FORCE a contributor to do somehing they arent intrested in, thats why we have a low ratio now
<persia> ScottK: OK.
<ScottK> imbrandon: I totally agree with that.
<persia> imbrandon: Yes to not forcing, no to drawing conclusions therefrom
<ScottK> imbrandon: But I also think we should focus on people where we think we need them to work. (focus, not force).
<sistpoty> ok, can we agree on updating the wiki? and any volunteers to get it right?
<imbrandon> ScottK: too much focus seems like forceage lately IMHO
<ScottK> We already have more people plunking stuff onto REVU than MOTUs can handle.
 * jonnymind is away: Sono occupato
 * persia volunteers to just change language, but doesn't promise "right".
<ScottK> imbrandon: I agree and so a balance is needed.
<ScottK> persia: Sounds good.
<sistpoty> [AGREED] persia to update the wiki about packaging jams
<MootBot> AGREED received:  persia to update the wiki about packaging jams
<sistpoty> [TOPIC] new packages vs. bugfixing as a means to get hopefuls involved
<MootBot> New Topic:  new packages vs. bugfixing as a means to get hopefuls involved
<persia> I like both.  I would like to deemphasize NEW packaging post DIF though.
<ScottK> We want people involved, but what we want to avoid is someone who is here to get $mypetpackage uploaded and vanishes.
<sistpoty> ScottK: agreed
<jcastro> those are the ones you push to ppas.
<ScottK> or ignore.
<proppy> getting a NEW package advocated take way more time that fixing a bug right ?
<persia> ScottK: I'm not sure about that: there's a few upstreams who want to do Ubuntu packaging, and I don't mind if they maintain their packages, and don't otherwise do much.
<sistpoty> what I'd really like to see is some stats on how many packages that made it through revu are well-maintained and how many not
<persia> proppy: And it does.
<imbrandon> ScottK: ignoring is bad, even in that sense
<ScottK> persia: I totally agree with that.
<ScottK> imbrandon: I'm thinking we have limited attention and can't properly attend to everyone, so we need to prioritize.
<persia> sistpoty: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/ has a lot of your base data.  About half are forgotten.
<Nafallo> we need to go back to the first few cycles :-). pre REVU ;-)
<jcastro> Plus, even if we get a small fraction of "packaging jam target people" becoming MOTU short term, chances are they'll work on more MOTU-oriented thing in the future when they get more comfortable
<imbrandon> jcastro: exactly, thats my point
<jcastro> "ok, you've done pet package, have you looked at doing a bite size bug?" etc. etc.
<persia> ScottK: I think we should actively process in REVU order.  For most packages, it only takes 10-20 minutes to draft a basic review of why it isn't ready.  I'd rather leave a comment & forget than ignore.
<sistpoty> persia: where exactly? packages not in sync doesn't tell too much :/. packages w.o. watch file don't need to be orphaned.
<ScottK> Per maintainer lookups aren't exactly helpful in Ubuntu either.
<persia> jcastro: Good idea.  Perhaps REVU uploaders should be encouraged to subscribe to the packages they upload in Malone.
<proppy> from an early contributor POV, when you fix a bug you get the positive feedback sooner
<sistpoty> [IDEA] subscribe REVU uploader to packages in malone
<persia> sistpoty: Look at packages w/o watchfile & the output of watchwiz for example.  Further, between the three links is all the packages from REVU.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  subscribe REVU uploader to packages in malone
<ScottK> What would be the purpose of this?
<imbrandon> +1, this should be being done now anyhow as best practice
<ScottK> I disagree.
<imbrandon> ScottK: make the people that rovide $package get bugmail
<ScottK> Ah.  I see.  I misunderstood
<persia> ScottK: If someone packages & uploads, encouraging them to watch bugs in that package may encourage greater involvement.  Not mandatory, just encouraged.
 * ScottK was thinking you were referring to the needs-packaging bug.
<persia> No.  No point really.
<ScottK> persia: Yes, that's good.  I just misundersood.
<ScottK> The problem is that there's nothing to subscribe to until after the upload.
<ScottK> So you have to ask them to do it after.
<proppy> yep, maybe suscribe the dependencies :)
<Nafallo> ScottK: there is nothing to apply a bug to before upload either :-)
<imbrandon> ScottK: sure, you shouldent just $upload and forget about someone :)
<persia> proppy: Less likely.  Not everyone can debug e.g. glibc
<imbrandon> so that shouldent be an issue
<ScottK> OK.  Good enough.
<proppy> persia: nor python
<persia> proppy: exactly
<ScottK> Getting a bug point of contact (even if they can only triage) is a very good thing.
 * persia hopes for the next topic, in anticipation of going back to sleep
<ScottK> I'm done.  Anyone else have a topic?
<sistpoty> ok, anyone disagrees with persia?
<Nafallo> I think we have an agree here somewhere? :-)
<sistpoty> hehe
<sistpoty> any other business?
<imbrandon> as long as its best practice and not manditiory :)
<persia> imbrandon: No enforement mechanism, so no point in calling it "mandatory".
<sistpoty> 3...
<sistpoty> 2...
<sistpoty> 1...
<proppy> what do you think about MOTU helpfull  revu others MOTU packages
<proppy> ?
<proppy> (sorry)
<sistpoty> [TOPIC] having motu hopefuls review other MOTU packages
<ScottK> proppy: As lolng as you make it clear you're not a MOTU, I think it's great.
<MootBot> New Topic:  having motu hopefuls review other MOTU packages
<imbrandon> we have a bad habbit about making things "required" though before they are put into use for a while, unlike debian policys where they are used for a long time before they are policy
<persia> proppy: It's good.  It's encouraged, and no they can't have access to REVU to do it yet.
<proppy> and MOTU reviewing you'r review
<sistpoty> persia: they can, but only on a individual basis
<ScottK> proppy: If you do the review interactively on #ubuntu-motu then that happens automatically.
<Nafallo> imbrandon: agreed.
<persia> sistpoty: Yes, but we can't distinguish Contributor comments from MOTU comments for sort order, so it breaks the MOTU review of Contributor comments part of the goal.
<ScottK> sistpoty: That needs to be treated as a special case and not as a general capability right now.
<persia> proppy: If you're worried about flooding the channel, use a pastebin to write the review, and post the link to #ubuntu-motu
<sistpoty> persia: right. but I guess someone who does a good job for some time should get review rights...
<proppy> persia: ok
<sistpoty> ScottK: exactly, that's what I wanted to write
<proppy> it was just a suggestion
<Nafallo> sistpoty: shouldn't that person be a MOTU as well then?
<DktrKranz> I like this proposal. A non-MOTU can provide useful feedbacks, reviewer will choose to follow these advices or not.
<ScottK> proppy: It's a good one.
<persia> sistpoty: I disagree.  If someone is doing an excellent job of reviewing, they should be prodded to apply for MOTU.
<proppy> maybe a threaded forum is more approriate for that than revfu
<ScottK> persia: Think of it as a final exam.
<sistpoty> Nafallo, persia: sure, but there are always delays, and I recall having someone grant review rights as a task of the application *g*
<persia> ScottK: For some special cases, maybe.
<sistpoty> I guess we all can agree that the real bug is in revu, which should get fixed, right?=
<ScottK> And since we haven't mechanized a way to distinguish MOTU/non-MOTU comments, then a special case is all it can ever be until someone codes the changes in REVU.
<persia> sistpoty: That might happen, but it's part of the application process, not a general case: Contributors should first prove their reviewing skills in #ubuntu-motu
<sistpoty> persia: I guess we agree there :)
<proppy> what about posting review in a mailing list then ?
<sistpoty> proppy: that mailing list exists already: motureviewers@tauware.de ;)
<proppy> then distingish between motu and non motu is just a matter of identify ?
<persia> proppy: Be warned that not every uploader reads that list (nor every reviewer)
<proppy> like an @ubuntu.com email ?
<sistpoty> motu-reviewers even
<ScottK> proppy: The trick is the data base schem needs changing.
<persia> proppy: Essentially.  It's not email, it's membership in ~ubuntu-dev
<ScottK> proppy: Not all MOTUs use their ubuntu.com address.
<sistpoty> ScottK: we could abuse the current scheme a little bit... I guess there's some space left which would require only minimal changes (but those with care *g*)
<Nafallo> @ubuntu.com is for members, not developers.
<proppy> ScottK: you mean not at all ?
<proppy> ScottK: or not for reviewing business ?
<ScottK> sistpoty: Excellent.
<ScottK> proppy: I meant not at all.
<proppy> ScottK: ok ne
 * ScottK for example.
 * persia proposes the drafting of a spec for how non-MOTUs would comment, for general review
<sistpoty> [IDEA] fix revu to allow non-motu contributors
<MootBot> IDEA received:  fix revu to allow non-motu contributors
<sistpoty> persia: that would be excellent, would you take care for this?
<proppy> thanks for feedbacks
<persia> sistpoty: I don't understand the problem well enough: I was happy using pastebin as a Contributor.
<persia> proppy: Would you be up for drafting a spec for how Contributors would add REVU comments?
<ScottK> proppy: How about you make a first draft?
<proppy> persia: np
<imbrandon> pastebin requires IRC :(
<persia> proppy: Thanks.
<proppy> persia: the difference betweend pastbin and revu
<sistpoty> persia: it would be in place reviews... debian-mentors acts quite like this
<persia> imbrandon: I don't consider that a downside.
<proppy> persia: is that pastebin is live
<proppy> persia: REVU is asynchronous
<ScottK> proppy: It alse needs to talk about how it gets decided who can review.
<sistpoty> (the mailing list, not the webpage=
<imbrandon> persia: i do, i know many contributors i have worked with will NOT cone to IRC
<imbrandon> come*
<persia> proppy: True.  I'll probably have more useful input when more awake :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<proppy> should I use the spec template ?
<imbrandon> plus irc limits you to those that are in your timezone
<imbrandon> or sleep/schedule
<ScottK> imbrandon: Sleep is for the weak.
<imbrandon> hehe
<persia> proppy: That would be best.
<sistpoty> proppy: I guess just informative text is nice.. of course you can do an "official spec" if you want ;)
<proppy> persia: url ?
<proppy> persia: I mean of the wanted spec
<proppy> persia: not the template
<imbrandon> ok i got to run, i trust someone will post the minutes to the ML ?
<sistpoty> imbrandon: sure, I'll do
<ScottK> Maybe sistpoty would volunteer to mentor proppy on spec writing....
<imbrandon> killer, thanks
 * persia suggests https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU but thinks someone else might have a better suggestion.
<proppy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/NonMOTUReviewProcess ?
<sistpoty> ScottK: /me needs the spare time for rewriting revu :P
<persia> sistpoty: You don7t get to rewrite until there's a spec, no? ;)
<proppy> I suck when it comes to choosing CamelCasedNames
<DktrKranz> sistpoty, is source code available somewhere?
<imbrandon> sistpoty: i just started proding the codebase too and did you see the staging site yet ?
<persia> DktrKranz: In the LP project
<DktrKranz> ah, I'll have a look, then
<proppy> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ContributorREVU
<sistpoty> DktrKranz: sure, https://code.launchpad.net/~revu-hackers/revu/trunk
<sistpoty> imbrandon: no, not yet
<sistpoty> ok, shall we move on?
 * persia seconds
<Nafallo> sistpoty: if that means a countdown ;-)
<sistpoty> 3
<sistpoty> 2
<sistpoty> 1
<sistpoty> any other business?
<ScottK> Next meeting?
 * persia proposes 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
<sistpoty> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<DktrKranz> Sounds good to me
 * persia proposes 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
<persia> (for MootBot)
<Nafallo> I'm on a flight :-)
<sistpoty> [IDEA] persia 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
<MootBot> IDEA received:  persia 12:00 UTC 21st December 2007
<ScottK> persia: I doubt we'll get much that close to Christmas
<ScottK> How about 12/14 and then we skip a week?
<persia> ScottK: True, but the week after is even worse :(
<Nafallo> friday meetings is the rule? ;-)
 * persia doubts much of an agenda pre-12/14 (and couldn't make it anyway)
<persia> Nafallo: Not the rule, but the practice.
<ScottK> persia: Even without an advance agenda, meetings are good.
<ScottK> I think today is an excellent example of that.
<Nafallo> 4th then? :-)
<sistpoty> official christmas break is "only" at 12/27 (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule), so I'd favor 12/12
<sistpoty> 12/21 even
<Nafallo> oh
<Nafallo> it's m/dd
<Nafallo> mm even
<Nafallo> so?
 * DktrKranz likes 12/21
<ScottK> Whatever.
<Nafallo> we got 14th, 21st and 4th proposed :-P
<sistpoty> let's vote... didn't have the chance to do a MootBot vote yet *g*
<sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 14
<MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 14.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sistpoty> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from sistpoty. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<persia> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<DktrKranz> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from DktrKranz. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<Nafallo> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Nafallo. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
<geser> -1
<imbrandon> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from geser. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
<MootBot> -1 received from imbrandon. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5
<sistpoty> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 1 abstained. Total: -5
<sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 21
<MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 21.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<imbrandon> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from imbrandon. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Nafallo> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Nafallo. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<DktrKranz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<sistpoty> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<sistpoty> [vote] meeting on 4th
<MootBot> Please vote on:  meeting on 4th.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> 0
<DktrKranz> +0
<Nafallo> +1
<sistpoty> -1
<MootBot> Abstention received from DktrKranz. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<MootBot> +1 received from Nafallo. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> -1 received from sistpoty. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<imbrandon> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from imbrandon. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<persia> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 3 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<sistpoty> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
<Nafallo> 21st then
<sistpoty> yes, what time? (and please let's just make a time and not vote again *g*)
<geser> which time?
<DktrKranz> 12:00 UTC ?
<imbrandon> 2100 UTC ?
<ScottK> 2100UTC is good for me.
<persia> 12:00 UTC so that people who aren't here now have a chance.
<sistpoty> I'd agree with 12:00 UTC as that would be the usual shift
<imbrandon> ok 1200 is ok also
<imbrandon> with me
<Nafallo> I'll miss it :-)
<ScottK> Whatever you all decide.
<Nafallo> but that's okay.
<sistpoty> ok, can we agree on 12:00 UTC?
<geser> +1
<DktrKranz> +1
<ScottK> Apparently
<sistpoty> [AGREED] time is 12:00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  time is 12:00 UTC
 * persia thought we agreed not to vote :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<Nafallo> sistpoty: agreed on the date? :-)
<DktrKranz> but that's not a vote :P
<sistpoty> [AGREED] 21
<MootBot> AGREED received:  21
<geser> persia: we could have a vote to not vote the time :)
<sistpoty> :P
<Nafallo> lol
<DktrKranz> :D
<persia> geser: Yes.  That would be proper procedure :)
<sistpoty> ok, I guess we're done...
<Nafallo> we could vote about ending the meeting ;-)
<DktrKranz> let's put it on vote :P
<sistpoty> [vote] end the meeting
<MootBot> Please vote on:  end the meeting.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Nafallo> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Nafallo. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<DktrKranz> +1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Nafallo> lol
<imbrandon> heh
<sistpoty> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<Nafallo> I wasn't serious :-P
<sistpoty> ok, meeting adjourned, thanks for coming!
 * DktrKranz hopes no-one looks at the transcript
<Nafallo> thanks :-)
<sistpoty> [endmeeting]
<sistpoty> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:17.
<persia> sistpoty: Thanks for chairing
<sistpoty> persia: no problem, though it was merely by accident#
<sistpoty> MootBot: where can I find your logs?
 * Nafallo puts sistpoty and imbrandon (I think) in #ubuntuwire ;-)
<sistpoty> hehe... will be right there, just give me 5 minutes of "fresh" air *g*
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-08
<xq> @now Boston
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-09
<nothlit> 26
<StevenHarperUK> Does anyone know when the next Community - Council meeting is (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil) - the event isn't in the calendar (http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/2007/12/01/month/all/all/1) - but it appears that they are every 2 weeks - the last was on the 29th November - so will the next be on the 13th Dec? (also it would be great if the correct date was posted on the wiki page)
<StevenHarperUK> If anyone who knows reads the log can you mail me - StevenHarperUK_AT_gmail.com
<Hattory> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 13 Dec 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 18 Dec 16:00: Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-02
<lifeless> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 02 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 02 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team
<elkbuntu> hi lifeless.
<lifeless> hi
<lifeless> are we meeting?
<lifeless> or am I time-confused
<elkbuntu> i'm not sure. there's nobody on our agenda page
<lifeless> short meeting then
<elkbuntu> yep
<elkbuntu> in absence of quorum or applicants, i'm inclined to close it.
<lifeless> seconded
<elkbuntu> and try finish my talk for thursday.
<nijaba> @now paris
<ubottu> Current time in Europe/Paris: December 02 2008, 16:35:01 - Next meeting: Server Team in 24 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team
<kirkland> o/
<JontheEchidna> \o
 * mathiaz waves
<Koon> \o/
<ScottK-laptop> Hello.
<zul> yarp yarp
<sommer> hey all
<jjesse> hello
<jjesse> time to get started?
<mathiaz> all right folks!
<JontheEchidna> ScottK-laptop: Hi, apachelogger had to go to the hospital because his bf got in a car accident
<mathiaz> let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> welcome to the Server Team meeting!
<mathiaz> starring... well a lot of interesting people! :)
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz> today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> we've got plenty of things to cover this week!
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: Did you get my ping about going first?
<ScottK-laptop> I can make it quick.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: hm - I didn't get your ping
<ScottK-laptop> I've only got about 20 minutes and then I need to go.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: oh ok.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] KDE mysql needs for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  KDE mysql needs for Jaunty
<ScottK-laptop> KDE has two major packages that use mysql.
<ScottK-laptop> akonadi and amarok.
<ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna is here also from the Kubuntu team to help me discuss
<JontheEchidna> \o
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: right - I ran into akonadi when I developer the apparmor profile
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: I had some dicussion with the upstream devs about it also.
<ScottK-laptop> Good.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: IIRC you introduced me to them
<ScottK-laptop> I wanted to coordinate early to ensure that our mysql packages work with akonadi so we don't have code copies.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: IIRC the current situation is that akonadi starts its own mysql process
<ScottK-laptop> Right.
<ScottK-laptop> http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/79351/ has some background.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com:80/79351/ has some background.
<ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: Jump in any time.
<JontheEchidna> ok, heh
<JontheEchidna> Amarok uses mysqle for music collection management
<JontheEchidna> I think for that we just basically need to ensure that we have mysql 5.1 for jaunty
<JontheEchidna> and it looks like that's on the agenda ;-)
<mathiaz> JontheEchidna: right - zul and I have been looking into that
<zul> heh we were just talking about that
<mathiaz> the issue we have for now is that mysql 5.1 doesn't build on jaunty
<mathiaz> or even 5.0
<ScottK-laptop> One issue I see with amarok is that any time we do post-release updates on mysql, amarok might need rebuilding to get the benifit of the update.
<ScottK-laptop> Given that amarok is using the embedded approach, I don't think that's avoidable.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: IIUC amarok uses the embedded mysql library that comes with 5.1
<ScottK-laptop> Yes.
<ScottK-laptop> That's why it needs 5.1.
<zul> well once we get mysql to build then I dont see a problem with it
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: ok - what would be the consequence of not packaging 5.1 in jaunty?
<ScottK-laptop> So I think somewhere it needs to be written down "If you do a security update of mysql, rebuild amarok against it for Jaunty and follow"
<ScottK-laptop> We need 5.1 in some form for amarok2 (which is the KDE4 version).
<JontheEchidna> mathiaz: If we don't package 5.1 apachelogger sez that there's a set of two patches we can use to make it work with amarok
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: the reason I ask this is because there has been a blog post on planet.mysql.com stating the 5.1 wasn't ready for production
<mathiaz> JontheEchidna: patches for 5.0?
<ScottK-laptop> So either it's packaged by the distro, it's stuffed inside the amarok package, or we're stuck on the KDE3 version again (this is a very bad thing).
<JontheEchidna> I would assume so
<mathiaz> JontheEchidna: IIUC amarok requires mysql embeded and 5.0 doesn't have support for embededd.
<ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: That note he left is about patches to 5.1.
<JontheEchidna> oh
<JontheEchidna> nevermind then
<ScottK-laptop> Well amarok2 is at RC stage using it.
<ScottK-laptop> So it must be at least ok'ish.
<ScottK-laptop> Part of the trick here is that amarok is in Main, so this would need to be in Main.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: right - I don't a personal opinion about the state of 5.1 - I've just been watching the MySQL community
<mathiaz> I don't *have*
<ScottK-laptop> One way or another we'll need 5.1.
 * ScottK-laptop nods.
<JontheEchidna> We did package our own mysql bits for a PPA containing amarok2, so that's a possibility
<ScottK-laptop> Right.  That's what we'd like to avoid.
<ScottK-laptop> Who is working on mysql for server team?
<mathiaz> yeah - packaging mysql 5.1 in amarok would make the security team cry
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: zul and me mainly
 * jdstrand sniffles
<zul> is this embeded stuff jut a library?
<JontheEchidna> zul: libmysql is all that's needed at build time
<mathiaz> zul: yeah - it was in 4.0 or 4.1 IIRC
<mathiaz> zul: but 5.0 doesn't ship it.
<ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: Maybe you could coordinate with them to pass on what you did in the PPA so they have the advantage of that work.
<mathiaz> so it seems we have one application in main that requires 5.1
<ScottK-laptop> Yes.
<jdstrand> so 5.1 isn't considered ready for production by mysql themselves?
<JontheEchidna> brb
<mathiaz> jdstrand: it is now.
<zul> couldnt we jut promote the library and keep everything else in universe for 5.1 if we decide that 5.1 is not stable enough
<mathiaz> jdstrand: 5.1.30 has been declare GA
<mathiaz> jdstrand: Nov 27th
<ScottK-laptop> zul: presumably.
<jdstrand> mathiaz: so our plan is to move to 5.1 whole hog and drop 5.0 support in jaunty?
<jdstrand> or support both?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: that would be one option
<zul> icky..
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I'd go for 5.1 in main and 5.0 in universe
<jdstrand> mathiaz: that seems reasonable to me
<mathiaz> jdstrand: the same way we have 4.1 in universe
<ScottK-laptop> Does mysql support multiple versions alongside like postgresql does (I'm more familiar with that)?
<mathiaz> however moving 5.1 in main means we'd have to take of the library transition
<jdstrand> I don't want to be supporting two separate releases in main if at all possible
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: AFAICT no
<zul> it doesnt
<JontheEchidna> ScottK-laptop: we have the packaging in a bzr branch, so it should be fairly easy to share
<ScottK-laptop> Any standard Kubuntu install will use akonadi and amarok both.
<mathiaz> JontheEchidna: are you running the test suite during the build?
<ScottK-laptop> So it sounds like akonadi will have to migrate to 5.1 too then to be co-installable.
<JontheEchidna> mathiaz: I don't know (I've only done updates to the packaging), apachelogger probably would though
<JontheEchidna> ...but he's not here :(
<zul> is it somewhere now?
<mathiaz> the main issue now is that the test suite fails.
<ScottK-laptop> zul: Am I correct then that since amarok needs 5.1 and it needs to be co-installable with akonadi, that akonadi also needs to use 5.1?
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: yes - that's a reasonable assumption.
<JontheEchidna> oh, maybe he doesn't have it in a bzr branch...
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: we could try to support both libmysql 5.0 and 5.1 in main
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: OK, so it sounds like Kubuntu pretty well HAS to get 5.1 then.
<mathiaz> but that means the security would have to support two version of mysql
<ScottK-laptop> Once it's akonadi it's more than just the lib.
<mathiaz> Ok - so to summarize
<mathiaz> it seems we have a compeling use case to get 5.1 in jaunty
<mathiaz> zul and I have already been looking into merging 5.1 from experimental
<ScottK-laptop> Amarok2 will be one of Kubuntu's marquee features for Jaunty, so we REALLY need it.
 * JontheEchidna would cry if we had to include JuK
<mathiaz> zul: could you look into the library transition?
<mathiaz> zul: ie have list of package that would need to be rebuild?
<zul> mathiaz: yeah I could
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to document the library transition requirement for mysql 5.1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to document the library transition requirement for mysql 5.1
<mathiaz> I'll try to get some input on the test failure while working on the 5.1 merge
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: How about some action to look into security team's position on supporting two versions in Main.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to look into test build failures of mysql 5.1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to look into test build failures of mysql 5.1
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: well - jdstrand already expressed his view
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: He didn't say no.
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: they rarely say no... they always express concerns ;)
<zoopster1> are there any lp entries that I can get mysql engineers to look at to help the cause? I have a bi-montlhy call with a mysql liason
<jdstrand> I am confident in expressing that we do not want to do that if at all possible
<ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: ;-)
<ScottK-laptop> zoopster1: When's the next call?
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: having only 5.1 in main mean that akonadi should support 5.1
<jdstrand> it is a very strong-- "please, please don't"
<jdstrand> :)
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: Having 5.0/5.1 not coinstallable means akonadi needs to be 5.1
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: however I don't see why akonadi wouldn't work with 5.1 since it starts it's own mysql process
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: IIUC akonadi doesn't use a library
<ScottK-laptop> Agreed, to the extent 5.1 is stable, reliable, etc.
<zoopster1> thurs 1:30 et
<mathiaz> ScottK-laptop: so it just uses SQL
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: Well there's your deadline to get some help ^^^
<ScottK-laptop> Akonadi carries user critical data, so it has to be reliable.
<mathiaz> zoopster1: I'll get in touch with you if I ran into issues.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on.
<ScottK-laptop> mathiaz: How about an action to let Kubuntu developers know when 5.1 hits the archive and one for us to update akonadi to 5.1.
<ScottK-laptop> OK.  Thanks.
<ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: Thanks.
<JontheEchidna> ScottK-laptop: You're welcome
<ScottK-laptop> apachelogger: Thanks (in abstentia).
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] split https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM in multiple sub pages
<MootBot> New Topic:  split https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM in multiple sub pages
<zoopster1> mathiaz: deal
<ScottK-laptop> Have a nice meeting everyone.
<mathiaz> nijaba: what's your brilliant idea?
<nijaba> no that brillant
<nijaba> I just think the page is too bug
<nijaba> big
<nijaba> and that it could be splitted in sub pages
<nijaba> but wanted to see if people had objections before doing so
<mathiaz> nijaba: do you have an idea about the structure?
<kirkland> nijaba: multiple pages could definitely be more effective, done correctly
<nijaba> mathiaz: not yet, but that would be a theme structure.  one sub section will be dedicated to windows guest, that's sure
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so the first step would be to come up with the structure
<mathiaz> nijaba: and then content can be moved from the main page to its sub-page
<nijaba> mathiaz: ok. you can action me on that
<mathiaz> nijaba: great. could you add an item in the roadmap and put up the new structure as bullet points there?
<nijaba> mathiaz: fine
<mathiaz> nijaba: I don't think we need a blueprint for that
<nijaba> hope not ;)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba to add an item about KVM wiki page restructure on the Roadmap and list the new structure
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to add an item about KVM wiki page restructure on the Roadmap and list the new structure
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Encrypted home: beta available
<MootBot> New Topic:  Encrypted home: beta available
<mathiaz> kirkland: has an amazing news!
 * jjesse waits exepenctantly
<kirkland> mathiaz, et al:  encrypted home directory code is working well :-)
<kirkland> I just blogged about it here: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/ubuntu-jaunty-encrypted-home.html, hoping for some early testers
<kirkland> two packages affected, in my PPA, adduser, and ecryptfs-utils
<kirkland> assuming you upgrade those two packages, it's simply a matter of "adduser --encrypt-home foo"
<nijaba> kirkland: have you done any bench on perf impact?
<kirkland> and foo's home directory will be setup for total encryption
<kirkland> nijaba: i did a basic test
<kirkland> nijaba: i debuild compiled a sufficiently large package
<kirkland> nijaba: in my encrypted home dir, it took about 19 minutes
<kirkland> nijaba: in a non-encrypted /tmp dir, it took almost 18 minutes
<nijaba> hmmm; sounds good!
<kirkland> nijaba: not very scientific, i know
<kirkland> nijaba: do we have an filesystem performance testers out there?
<nijaba> enough for me to be convinced to give it a shot on my test machine
<kirkland> nijaba: someone that could help benchmark this?
<kirkland> nijaba: good point ...  test machines only at this point
<kirkland> nijaba: in my PPA, and such
<kirkland> the file name encryption hasn't landed in the ubuntu kernel yet
<kirkland> though it is in Andrew Morton's -mm tree
<kirkland> so its well on its way to upstream adoption
<kirkland> i do think that should make jaunty's final kernel
<kirkland> i have a number of other things still to do...
<kirkland> integrating into the Server and Desktop installers
<kirkland> and modifying the graphical Users and Groups program to support the option
<kirkland> in any case, i think the hardest part is behind me ;-)
<kirkland> so if you have a VM lying around, running Jaunty, please give it a shot ;-)
<mathiaz> kirkland: is the list of TODO items tracked somewhere?
<kirkland> mathiaz: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/encrypted-home-directory
<nijaba> kirkland: you could get in touch with the guys at phoronyx to give us an idea on the impact
<kirkland> mathiaz: in the whiteboard
<kirkland> mathiaz: i still need to make a full wiki spec for it, at which point i'll migrate those over there
<kirkland> nijaba: interesting, okay...  do you have a contact over there?
<kirkland> nijaba: those were the guys who trashed Intrepid, though, right?
<nijaba> kirkland: will get you in touch with them
<kirkland> nijaba: thanks
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'll probably shift some focus to encrypted swap now
<mathiaz> kirkland: right - considering that you'll have to write something up for UDS you could start a wiki page now
<kirkland> mathiaz: as that's critically important to the security of the homedir's data, now, in that any cleartext homedir data *only* lives in memory, which could get swapped to disk
<mathiaz> kirkland: OTOH if these are just minor points, adding to the Roadmap would be enough IMO
<kirkland> mathiaz: okey doke
<kirkland> mathiaz: i plan on having a wiki page anyway
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to create a wiki page for encrypted home directories
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to create a wiki page for encrypted home directories
<mathiaz> kirkland: anything else on the encrytped front?
<kirkland> mathiaz: don't think so
<Koon> kirkland: any way to have a non-encrypted foler inside an encrypted home directory ?
<Koon> (folder)
<kirkland> Koon: kind of ...
<kirkland> Koon: ecryptfs at the kernel layer supports something called "passthrough"
<kirkland> Koon: which would do what you suggest
<kirkland> Koon: however, there's a couple of bugs (or feature requests) in the kernel ecryptfs filesystem that are keeping this from being feature-complete
<Koon> kirkland: just asking :)
<kirkland> Koon: it's a great, fair question
<mathiaz> allright - let's move on
<kirkland> Koon: and it's something i hope we're close to fixing
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] likewise-open SRU
<MootBot> New Topic:  likewise-open SRU
<mathiaz> Koon: ^^?
<Koon> Well ,testing is now done, thanks to sommer
<Koon> it's just waiting for -updates copy
<mathiaz> Koon: great - any other SRU that should be tested?
<Koon> mathiaz: nope, I do have a tomcat5.5 hardy SRU waiting for sponsoring though
<mathiaz> Koon: bug number?
<Koon> bug 179447
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 179447 in tomcat5.5 "Installation of tomcat5.5 fails if openjdk-6 or a JRE is installed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179447
<mathiaz> Koon: OTOH you'll be a MOTU soon
<mathiaz> Koon: that could be your first upload
<Koon> mathiaz: I hope so, so I figured I could do it myself
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add?D
<james_w> Koon: I'm pretty sure I uploaded that
<nijaba> I guess there will be no meeting next week because of UDS, right?
<kirkland> show of hands, who's attending UDS?  :-)
<kirkland> o/
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz> nijaba: I was about to discuss that in the next topic
<mathiaz> o/
<zul> \o\
<zoopster1> o/
<Koon> james_w: you uploaded the intrepid fix... bug not the hardy SRU
<sommer> o//
<james_w> Koon: Successfully uploaded tomcat5.5_5.5.25-5ubuntu1.2_source.changes to upload.ubuntu.com.
<Koon> ah.hm.
<james_w> Koon: I'm trying to work out where it went
<Koon> o\
<mathiaz> Reminder: dendrobates will buy any server team member a beer if they find him at UDS
<james_w> Koon: Subject: 	[ubuntu/hardy-proposed] tomcat5.5 5.5.25-5ubuntu1.2 (Waiting for approval)
<james_w> Date: 	Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:10:08 -0000
<zul> mathiaz: it should be easier to corner him now
<mathiaz> a picture of him can be found in his LP account - https://launchpad.net/~dendrobates/
<Koon> james_w: ok, so it's in the queue. Thanks, couldn't tell by looking at the bug
<james_w> Koon: yeah, I should have added a comment I now realise. You can see it at https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
<mathiaz> anything else to add?
<Koon> have a great time at UDS, guys, drink one or two beers in my name :)
<nijaba> Koon: will do!
 * Koon still hopes to get private access to the robotic webcam
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> as nijaba mentioned earlier, UDS will be taking place next week
<mathiaz> and most of us will be there (sorry Koon :/ )
<mathiaz> so my proposal is to not have a server team meeting next week
<mathiaz> and instead we'll meet again here on IRC in two weeks
<mathiaz> same time, same place, in two weeks?
<sommer> sounds good to me
<nijaba> +1
<mathiaz> great then
<mathiaz> next IRC meeting in two weeks, same time, same place
<mathiaz> and see most of you at UDS next week (or even earlier for those of you that attend Fosscamp
<mathiaz> thanks for attending!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:58.
<nijaba> Thanks a lot Mathiaz, see you @ Fosscamp
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
<pgraner> Time for the Kernel Team Weekly Meeting....
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * apw is here
<pgraner> The agenda can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<lieb> here
<pgraner> I wanted to get some admin out of the way first.
 * smb_tp arrives
<sconklin> here
 * cking here
<pgraner> We will cancel next weeks meeting due to UDS and resume the following week
<apw> sounds reasonable to me
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to update wiki, and email notifying of cancellation of next weeks meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to update wiki, and email notifying of cancellation of next weeks meeting
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security and Bugfix Kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security and Bugfix Kernels
<pgraner> Intrepid
<pgraner> How do we look?
<rtg> all done
<rtg> uploaded, propagated, etc
<pgraner> rtg: anything filling the queue yet?
<rtg> lots of SRUs puring in.
<rtg> pouring, even
<rtg> no CVEs that I'm aware of.
<pgraner> rtg: great
<pgraner> Hardy?
<smb_tp> Dapper to Hardy should be done as well for security. And Hardy -proposed also looks good
<smb_tp> Also no new CVEs
<pgraner> smb_tp: when is proposed getting pushed?
<smb_tp> pgraner, It is already uploaded. Possibly only meta missing
<pgraner> smb_tp: ok...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<pgraner> BenC, rtg: ^^^^^^^^^^
<rtg> will upload 2.6.28-2.2 momentarily
<rtg> sent out mailing list note
<apw> is there any userspace dependancies as yet?
<pgraner> rtg: yea just saw that... mail is moving slow today :-(
<rtg> its a rebase against 2.6.28-rc7 plus some other patches.
<pgraner> rtg: how many sauce patches are we carrying?
<rtg> dunno, but I actually dropped a couple during this rebase.
<pgraner> rtg: thats info we need to gather for UDS
<rtg> some wacom tablet stuff
<amitk> pgraner: 46
<amitk> ...with no reference to 42
<pgraner> amitk: about the same as Intrepid ...
<BenC> pgraner: sorry, got side tracked on another discussion...
<pgraner> BenC: no worries...
<rtg> talked to fabbione this morning. we need to update gfs as soon as he's got a version ready for .28
<apw> we have a couple of reverts in the list so there may be a couple fewer
<BenC> rtg: Have you reviewed those two reverts to mainline?
<pgraner> rtg: what about GFS2 I thought that superseded gfs?
<amitk> apw: right. I missed that in the quick scan. 44 then.
<BenC> pgraner: gfs is meant to allow moving to gfs2
<rtg> BenC: the wacom tablet reverts? yes - I looked at upstream. seems to be a superset.
<pgraner> BenC: ok... I thought we were there already, I don't track GFS actively...
<BenC> pgraner: they aren't compatible, and since fabbione is willing to maintain it (and is upstream for it), we are keeping it around
<pgraner> BenC: ack
<rtg> pgraner: fabbione says we'll have to carry it another 2 or 3 years
<BenC> I'm guessing we can drop it after the next lts
<pgraner> rtg: wow, thats a long cycle. Does anyone know what the others distros are doing, if anything different?
<rtg> you can bet redhat is carrying it :)
<BenC> pgraner: fedora/redhat are keeping it as well (fabbione works for them)
<amitk> BenC: can't any of the sauce patches be upstreamed?
<amitk> 44d5e51a5199cd4cf939fa3a15e03c85093f3ccd
<BenC> amitk: they all need to be reviewed for that, but yes, a lot can
<apw> we should probabally do a review across them
<pgraner> Thats a UDS discussion
<apw> is there a specific session for that?
<apw> or is that a beer-tent session
<rtg> apw: I think there is a session for it
<pgraner> apw: yes
<pgraner> Anything else for Jaunty?
<rtg> beer tents are too noisy for that sort of thing
<BenC> pgraner: lrm is prepped and ready for upload
<pgraner> I think we will hammer quite a bit out during UDS
<pgraner> BenC: nice
<BenC> pgraner: nothing needed to be ported, was a clean compile
<amitk> BenC: any plans to replace madwifi HAL?
<amitk> and move it out of LRM?
<BenC> amitk: gonna leave that to rtg...I have no hardware to confirm it
<rtg> amitk: madwifi should just disappear
 * amitk nods
<BenC> rtg: will ath5k/ath9k be using the newly open sources hal?
<amitk> but untile ath5k and ath9k works for everybody...
<BenC> *sourced
<amitk> *until
<rtg> 9k isn't relevant, only 5k. and 5k ought to be a superset by now.
<rtg> Luis will be at UDS, we can chat him up about it.
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM
<pgraner> amitk: anything new since last week?
<BenC> looks like armel built fine with -1.1 upload, so that's a big plus
<amitk> wading through a _huge_ patchset that is the diff between Linus' tree and linux-omap tree
<apw> is that the like 500k commits one?
<amitk> UDS decision to be made: go with linux-omap tree for all -omap flavours OR
<rtg> amitk: are you cross compiling ?
<amitk> apply several hundred patches to the ubuntu kernel
<amitk> rtg: yes
<pgraner> amitk: whats the story with the omap tree? when are those patches expected to be in mainline?
<amitk> pgraner: another year :)
<pgraner> amitk: ouch
<amitk> lots of driver fixes needed.
<amitk> plus first they go to Russell's tree (linux-arm)
<amitk> then on to Linus'
<cking> amitk: maintenance nightmare
<pgraner> amitk: ok, we will have that as part of the general kernel roundtable. I'm just worried about bug/security divergence
<amitk> pgraner: in general it is _possible_ to apply the patches to our tree
<amitk> since linux-omap is very uptodate with linus' tree
<pgraner> amitk: sounds like its time for a new guy to step up </hint>
<amitk> but I'll leave the decision to UDS with some more numbers in terms of patches and effort
<pgraner> Ok... anything else amitk ?
<amitk> it would help if someone can take lpia burden off for a while...
<pgraner> amitk: ok, we can do that next week when we are all together
<amitk> ack
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<pgraner> Go for it!
<apw> where are we with the various blueprints
<rtg> rumor has it that pgraner buys all of the beer next week.
 * apw remembers that too
<amitk> rtg: I heard that one too
 * pgraner buys with rtg's credit card
<apw> sneaky
 * rtg expenses everything
<cking> heh
<pgraner> apw: we will hit blueprints in the next topic
 * pgraner notes that rtg has an answer for everything
<pgraner> I guess we can move on then...
<ogasawara> we're looking good for bugs getting worked on from the weekly buglist
<apw> ogasawara, your list is much easier to work with now thanks again for the updates
<pgraner> Oh... sorry ogasawara I forgot to add you back on the agenda. I'll fix now
<pgraner> ogasawara: I too like the new format
<sconklin> +1
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS
<pgraner> Blueprints are done except for two: kernel-packaging & Kernel Faster Booting
<rtg> its on my todo list for today
<pgraner> I've got a call with sconklin later today on the packaging one
<amitk> guilty as charged. Working on it in bits and pieces
<pgraner> rtg: great...
<apw> i have some updates to do, but the bulk is there
<amitk> hard to write a spec that you don't really agree with...
<pgraner> amitk: we need to have it flused out buy the actual session so there is a bit of time
<amitk> akc
<amitk> ack
<pgraner> amitk: its not so much that you agree with it, its about the investigation and making sure we cover all the alternatives
<apw> amitk, in a sense being a harsh critic makes you think about the bad points better, and those are just as valid, as are alternative options
<amitk> pgraner: just to be sure, this isn't about speeding up boot in general, right?
<amitk> it is about booting from a pre-saved image
<pgraner> amitk: there are two different blue prints, rtg has Faster boot. You have the presaved image. Much like what we talked about in London
<amitk> ok. good.
<rtg> amitk: why is fast boot a separate spec?
<rtg> isn't pre-saved image just another method for fater boot?
<amitk> rtg: because it is not necessary achievable for all hardware? And is bootloader dependent?
<pgraner> rtg: the presaved image is a "instant on" type thing
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<pgraner> I would ask that everyone read all the specs and add to them as you see fit. The more there the better.
<rtg> I'll have idle moments during FOSS camp to do just that.
<pgraner> Anything else on UDS?
<pgraner> I'll take silence as approval....
<apw> nothing here
<smb_tp> ack
<lieb> ack
<cking> silent ack
<pgraner> Reminder no meeting next week. See everyone at UDS!
<apw> see you there!
<amitk> bye
<BenC> see ya!
<dholbach> see you there :-)
<smb_tp> till then
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:34.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
<nizarus> @schedule tunis
<ubottu> Schedule for Africa/Tunis: 02 Dec 22:00: Community Council | 03 Dec 00:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 17:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 18:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
<Burgundavia> hmm, anybody else around?
<boredandblogging> hope so
<hatemsh> hi all
<MaWaLe> hi folks
<MaWaLe> hi boredandblogging
<Burgundavia> quorum is > 1, sadly
<Technoviking> hello
<Technoviking> I'm here, my wireless is hazy, may drop off
<Burgundavia> so we have two
<cody-somerville> I'm around
<sabdfl> hello all
<Burgundavia> excellent
<sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<sabdfl> is Nick Ali present?
<boredandblogging> here
<sabdfl> do we have quorum?
<Technoviking> 3 of us
<boredandblogging> i wrote up some notes on /talk
<boredandblogging> i can rehash if needed or clarify
<Burgundavia> the first issue the news team calendar?
<boredandblogging> Burgundavia: yes
<Burgundavia> can we avoid the whole development issue by using google calendar and then feed that into drupal?
<boredandblogging> the meeting bot still needs to be fixed
<boredandblogging> and thats the main problem
<sabdfl> does google calendar not handle the repeating nature?
<sabdfl> i.e. can we get a feed from google with repeating events exploded out?
<boredandblogging> the google calendar handles it fine
<Burgundavia> it would just spit out an ical file
<Burgundavia> can we not feed that into drupal and thus the events become non-repeating?
<sabdfl> it does spit out ical, but does it also spit out a list of events in another format?
<boredandblogging> ical and ics is all I've seen
<boredandblogging> reading feeds into drupal is not the easiest thing especially into the event modules
<nizarus> ical, xml and html
<boredandblogging> feeds are handled completely differently
<sabdfl> does the newer drupal codebase work with repeating events?
<boredandblogging> we haven't tested it out
<boredandblogging> but if it did do it properly, still a meeting bot issue
<boredandblogging> but if it did each event separately, it could work
<boredandblogging> but I'm not sure why it would break it out
<Technoviking> who runs the meeting bot code?
<boredandblogging> stdin
<Burgundavia> does the ical file lists the events as repeating or one event at a time?
<boredandblogging> repeating
<sabdfl> it gets even trickier when you have a repeating event that gets moved around for one instance
<boredandblogging> correct
<sabdfl> i.e. a CC meeting that gets pushed back an hour on a particular week
<boredandblogging> yeah, I'm not sure how ical handles that, but right the code would have to consider that
<sabdfl> did we develop this bot, or is it something that existed elsewhere that we adapted?
<Burgundavia> indeed, my thought
<boredandblogging> savveas
<sabdfl> is it in python...?
<boredandblogging> yeah, its a supybot module
<Burgundavia> so you are asking for Canonical resources, essentially?
<boredandblogging> heh
<boredandblogging> at least finding someone to fix the bot
<boredandblogging> anyone who can code and make the changes
<Burgundavia> given we at the CC are more of the moral persuasion
<Burgundavia> have you tried blogging about it?
<sabdfl> i wonder if google's api doesn't allow us to count on it for expanding out the ical file
<Burgundavia> apologies if you have, been heads down with school recently
<boredandblogging> i haven't blogged about it
<sabdfl> i will send off an email to some folks at canonical that just did some work on google calendar scripting
<Technoviking> sorry wireless drop off for a minute
<sabdfl> i take it that it's sufficient to be able to monitor a google calendar and announce events in a set of channels?
<boredandblogging> sabdfl: yeah, we just want to maintain its current functionality
<sabdfl> i don't know the full extent of that :-)
<sabdfl> ok, i'll send that mail, nick what's your email addy?
<boredandblogging> sabdfl: nali @ ubuntu
<sabdfl> okdokey, will cc you
<sabdfl> hope something good comes out of it
<boredandblogging> thanks guys
<sabdfl> yann hamon?
<Burgundavia> postponed until the 16th
<sabdfl> do we have a view on corporate blogs and planet? this came up before with canonical
<Burgundavia> as long as it isn't overt advertising, I don't have a major issue with it
<Burgundavia> something like Novells PR blog on planet suse is a bit too advertising for me, for example
<sabdfl> how about we subscribe to a subset feed?
<sabdfl> say, if they explicitly tag it "planet" then we take it?
<sabdfl> and then we also hold them accountable for not advertising?
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> maybe we have a trial period?
<sabdfl> that makes "publish on planet" a conscious decision, rather than an accident
<Technoviking> don't think so, I think it would be fine to have a corporate blog feed to the planet if it is Ubuntu releated, no sales pitch!
<Technoviking> +1
<sabdfl> i think a review in three months would be useful
<sabdfl> if only to say "so far so groovy"
<Burgundavia> that works
<Technoviking> sounds like a plan
<Burgundavia> should we explicitly list the corporate blogs somewhere on the wiki with the rules?
<Burgundavia> and how to get added?
<sabdfl> where should we document this policy guideline?
<Burgundavia> Planet/CorporateBlogs
<Burgundavia> ?
<sabdfl> if it's just one paragraph, can we add it to the main page?
<sabdfl> how about requiring CC approval?
<sabdfl> just so we don't get folks adding companies that are almost peripheral
<boredandblogging> wouldn't it be better to have a separate planet for it? I would think a lot of companies would be interested
<Burgundavia> a corporate ghetto? no thanks
<sabdfl> we don't have a concept of "corporate membership" but i think some awareness at CC level would be useful, until it gets bedded down and can be delegated
<sabdfl> i agree, a separate planet would be less useful
<Burgundavia> corporations can be just as much a part of the community as a person
<sabdfl> +1
<lifeless> I think it would be great to have the companies deeply into Ubuntu blogging on planet
<lifeless> just as a non-cc-member opinion
<Burgundavia> we should also encourage their engineers, etc. to create blogs and post about projects they are working on
<boredandblogging> just afraid the planet would get swamped, but that can be dealt with later
<Burgundavia> subject to normal membership guidelines, etc.
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: would you draft a paragraph for the Planet page?
<sabdfl> salient points are:
<Burgundavia> should we ask that at least one person at the company is a member (strawman, not certain if I like it or hate it)
<sabdfl>  - "conscious subsets" of corporate blogs can be published on planet
<sabdfl>  - needs to be agreed with CC
<sabdfl>  - criteria will be sustained and significant involvement in Ubuntu by the company
<sabdfl>  - and no advertising on posts flagged for publishing on planet
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: +1
<sabdfl> (on the requirement that the company have a member to take responsibility)
<Burgundavia> Technoviking: ?
<sabdfl> any other bullets folks would add to that list?
<Technoviking> +1 on that
<boredandblogging> creative commons licensed?
<Technoviking> It sounds like a great idea
<lifeless> boredandblogging: don't see that that is specific to company blogs
<Burgundavia> boredandblogging: enforcing licensing may lead to legal issues that prevent blogging
<sabdfl> do we have an existing requirement of CC licensing for planet?
<Technoviking> I think posts to the planet would have to be creative commons licenced
<sabdfl> i don't think we require that for individuals, do we?
<Burgundavia> not currently, unless i have really been sleeping at the switch
<Technoviking> I thought we did, but I may be think of the forums post
<sabdfl> i take it we have explicit permission, since people subscribe us to their feed
<sabdfl> i'm -1 on treating corp blogs differently from a licensing perspective
<Burgundavia> yes
<sabdfl> Technoviking: ?
<Technoviking> that is fine with me, no need for license
<sabdfl> other than implied permission to republish
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: is that enough for you?
<Burgundavia> yep, am working on it right now
<sabdfl> okdokey
<sabdfl> is that a wrap?
<james_w> a related question if you have a moment
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: will you cc a copy of that to the UWN folks?
<sabdfl> james_w: go for it
<Technoviking> is someone from Tunisian LoCo Team here
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu/CorporateBlogs
<nizarus> o/
<Burgundavia> first cut
<james_w> does every blog on planet have to be an Ubuntu member, or can you "sponsor" people on to it?
<sabdfl> james_w: the former
<Burgundavia> interesting idea. why do you suggest it?
<james_w> thought so, someone told me otherwise
<james_w> "I've done if before and no-one complained" was the line I think :-)
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> have we actually checked that everybody int eh feed is a member?
<sabdfl> that's not *really* the same thing :-)
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: i don't think so, no
<jcastro> Technoviking: I've been talking to one of the guys about this Tunisian thing
<jcastro> Technoviking: I was going to bring it up at a UDS roundtable
<Technoviking> jcastro: ok thanks
<Burgundavia> do we think it is worth doing?
<jcastro> I think so
<sabdfl> from a canonical perspective, we have specific decision processes for that
<jcastro> I am unsure on who is available and who would want to go and all that.
<sabdfl> jcastro is plugged in
<Burgundavia> sabdfl: for the corporate blogs page, I am going to circulate on the mailing list for comments before we send it off to the UWN
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: +1
<sabdfl> on the Tunis question, i think we should let jcastro tackle it
<jcastro> I've TODOed it for UDS
<sabdfl> if it's appropriate for Canonical to sponsor an Ubuntu member, we'll do that
<Technoviking> Burgundavia: looks great: +1
<Technoviking> sabdfl: +1, jcastro ftw!!!
 * RainCT would like to suggest allowing LoCo Teams to aggregate a feed on planet.ubuntu.com
<nizarus> tunisian loco member are here
<nizarus> me alibb MaWaLe hatemsh :)
<hatemsh> yeh
<MaWaLe> here
<Technoviking> nizarus: jcastro is going to work with you
<nizarus> ok Technoviking
<nizarus> sabdfl, you can't attend to it ??
<Burgundavia> you need to make a cloning machine with your millions. screw with open source stuff
<Burgundavia> hello?
<Burgundavia> just to be aware, I have to leave in about 20 minutes
<sabdfl> RainCT: i think it better to ask folks to become members
<Technoviking> i think we are done
 * sabdfl also has to wrap up
<Burgundavia> ok
<Technoviking> thanks for coming everyone, see some of you next week at UDS
<Burgundavia> so still on the agenda for next time is asia pacific board and the artwork guidelines?
<Burgundavia> ugh, exam week
<Burgundavia> have fun
<nizarus> thx all folks
<sabdfl> thanks folks!
<Technoviking> later all
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: +1
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: just say "the CC will review in April 2009"
<nizarus> sabdfl, waiting for you in Tunisia some days ;-)
<MaWaLe> +1 nizarus
<sabdfl> nizarus: heh, i would like to come, enjoyed WSIS
<nizarus> :)
<james_w> WSIS was cool
<nizarus> i think we will not have a nex WSIS before 2099 :))
<nizarus> nex/new
<hatemsh> unfortunatly we orgnise the wsis+3 event
<hatemsh> some day ago
<hatemsh> in hammamet
<hatemsh> james_w,  hope to meet you in the wsis+4
<james_w> I'd love to return
<hatemsh> you are welcome
<hatemsh> in any event and without event
<hatemsh> :)
<james_w> unfortunately I'm not in that line of work anymore, but you never know :-)
<wrtpeeps> somebody call me when this starts
<nizarus> james_w, hatemsh gives you an open invitation to visit us so just oing us :)
<james_w> excellent :-)
<wrtpeeps> oh wait
<wrtpeeps> another hour to go
<nizarus> it s avilebal for boredandblogging too :p
<boredandblogging> nizarus: someday :)
<MaWaLe> infact the invitation is available for all ubuntero : it's an open source invitation :p
<Burgundavia> guys if you want to talk about the tunisian event, can you move to another channel?
<Burgundavia> keeps the logs clear
<hatemsh> Burgundavia,  ok
<nizarus> sorry Burgundavia we are talking about on #ubuntu-tn
<Burgundavia> no worries
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
<Technoviking> hello all
<nand> hello
<Technoviking> any other FC people here
<forumsmatthew> hello
<wrtpeeps> hi
<Technoviking> Lets give people a couple more minutes
<wrtpeeps> Joeb454: :o
<Joeb454> ?
<forumsmatthew> I am pretty sure ubuntu-geek is driving home atm and will arrive soon
<Technoviking> ok
<Technoviking> any word from jdong or kiwi
<forumsmatthew> I haven't heard from either, but will start pinging
<wrtpeeps> how long to these shows generally last?
<Joeb454> 8 hours
<Technoviking> hourish, usually less
<wrtpeeps> gawd
<Technoviking> wrtpeeps: problem?
<wrtpeeps> newp
<Technoviking> Well, we can start but, we will not be able to ote on anything till we get one more FC person for a quoram
<forumsmatthew> I would rather wait than have to repeat stuff when others arrive
<nand> so do I
<forumsmatthew> okay, let's give them a few minutes. I've contacted the missing people. Hopefully they just forgot and are close to their computers and not in the middle of dealing with unexpected problems
<stgraber> forumsmatthew: "unexpected problems" ? does that ever happen ?
<forumsmatthew> stgraber, lol :)
<Joeb454> well there was that one time jdong walked in........no nevermind ;)
<Technoviking> hmmm
<Technoviking> looks like we are it forumsmatthew
<forumsmatthew> Yeah. Bummer.
<forumsmatthew> I think we need to reschedule
<Technoviking> would people mind delaying a week or so
<nand> I guess we have no choice. After UDS then?
<forumsmatthew> I think so. We will look at the schedule and get something up asap
<nand> okay
 * nand is falling asleep
<nand> good night all!
<forumsmatthew> I'll send an email to the FC mailing list and get the reschedule started and we will post the new date on the wiki
<forumsmatthew> night, nand
<Technoviking> ok, sorry about that folks, if you have any immediate problem, send them to the forums council mailing list
<forumsmatthew> the email has been sent. we will work to get a new meeting time on the wiki soon
<forumsmatthew> bye, everyone!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-03
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
<Chaosmagi>  Do u feel like your life is stuck in a rut, just going around in circles. Do u feel Spirituality left out then all u have to do is !!!!TAKE BACK REALITY!!!! www.ellis69.webs.com
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council
 * heno waves
 * schwuk waves also
<ogasawara> hi guys
<ara> hello!
<schwuk> hi ogasawara. ara
<bdmurray> hi schwuk ogasawara ara
<ara> hi schwuk ogasawara bdmurray
<ara> :)
<heno> this won't scale :)
<bdmurray> ;-)
<heno> so let's start!
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> sbeattie: here?
<sbeattie> yep
<heno> pedro has started his trip to FOSSCamp AFAIK
<heno> [TOPIC] Finalising the UDS schedule - heno
<MootBot> New Topic:  Finalising the UDS schedule - heno
<heno> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/qa/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/qa/
<heno> From my perspective it's pretty much settled - please have a look and comment
<heno> also please add yourself as [required] participants as appropriate
<ara> stupid comment: what do the different colours mean?
<bdmurray> yellow are plenarys
<heno> blue is spec, yellow is plenery, green is a discussion
<bdmurray> peachpuff is roundtables
<ara> thanks :)
<bdmurray> I think the shade of blue changes depending on your relationship to the spec too
<heno> not quite sure on the difference between peachpuff and green sessions actually
<intellectronica> may i suggest doing the malone/qa team meeting next week at UDS?
<bdmurray> Incidentally, the QA bugs session at 16:15 on Thursday may be an opportunity for us to share our bugs with Launchpad so have your bugs handy.
<intellectronica> i won't be there, but i can call in. gmb is happy to organise the meeting
<intellectronica> bdmurray: high 5
<heno> intellectronica: should we schedule a meeting separately from the QA bugs session?
<heno> we do have a free slot
<heno> and we can still shuffle the order around a bit
<intellectronica> heno: no, that should be enough. it may be a bit too late for me to call in, but as i said, graham will be there
<heno> we can move it to before lunch if that works for gmb
<intellectronica> that would be great. i'll ask gmb to coordinate that
<bdmurray> heno: I just swapped them it seems to work for gmb
<heno> ok, great
<heno> any other comments on the schedule?
<heno> we should freeze the time slots soonish so it can be announced to participants
<ara> heno: it works well for me
<heno> (I guess there is a distro-wide announcement planned) <- jcastro?
<heno> moving on ...
<heno> [TOPIC] Jaunty checkbox package (It's still the old hwtest) - heno
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty checkbox package (It's still the old hwtest) - heno
<heno> schwuk: can you find a sponsor for this?
<ara> cr3 just told me that there were still some issues with upgrading
<heno> should be trivial now that we are not frozen
<cr3> heno: should I be the sponsor?
<cr3> oh wait! motu sponsor, I would like to propose mathiaz
<heno> cr3: you don't have Ubuntu main upload rights, do you? ;)
<cr3> the packaging of checkbox is non-trivial and he's already familiar with it
<heno> mathiaz> sounds good
<cr3> heno: I'll inform him right away
<heno> ok, thanks
<heno> should checkbox be improved in any way to make packaging easier?
<heno> (why is it non-trivial?)
<cr3> heno: it's non-trivial so that preseed variables can be interpolated in the configuration file easily
<cr3> heno: it's a compromise, either make packaging easy and updating the configuration painful. or, making packaging complicated and updating the configurationfile easy. mathiaz would be in best position to determine if improvements are possible or necessary even
<heno> I didn't think the [d-i] preseed part lived in checkbox
<heno> anyway, let's try to get it uploaded during UDS
<cr3> it's not installer related, it's just normal package preseeding
<heno> oic, ok
<cr3> heno: mathiaz responded "no problem", so we'll sit down during uds to get it done
<heno> also, on UDS preparations: feel free to add information to the stub specs altready before the discussions, esp, summaries, use cases, etc
<schwuk> cr3: I'd like to be involved in that
<heno> the design part is often best left for afterwards
<cr3> ara: if you would like particular bugs fixed in checkbox before uploading to jaunty, please let me know. I've been plowing through bugs this week
<ara> cr3: ok, I will have a look to the list and let you know
<heno> we should try to get the specs completed before the holiday
<heno> that way we can get straight to work in January
<heno> that's it from me - any other business?
<cr3> schwuk: I know you've expressed interest in breaking up the glade file to checkbox so that each test could potentially provide their own user interface, we should probably sit down together during uds so that we can potentially annoy seb about it :)
<bdmurray> If you have something to share / demo the roundtables would be appropriate.
<schwuk> cr3: Absolutely. It's sort of covered in the test definition spec, but I suspect that particular conversation will overspill.
<cr3> bdmurray: thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on that
<bdmurray> cr3: great!  How much time would you need?
<cr3> schwuk: one of the reasons I provide a unified interface to tests is to make the test definition spec as short and simple as possible. this is a conversation for uds
<cr3> bdmurray: roundtables seem to be 45 minutes, I think that would be great. less than that and I wouldn't cover enough, more than that and people will fall asleep :)
<heno> cr3: a how to add tests to checkbox tutorial would be great
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council
<heno> there probably needsto be some time at each round table for short UDS-related updates too
<bdmurray> cr3: okay, I think we could spare that much time
<heno> so a bit less than 45 probably
<cr3> heno: exactly, I had a tutorial in mind too
<bdmurray> heno: true
 * heno stops schedule bikesheading
<heno> let's wrap it up - anything else?
<heno> safe travels everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:32.
<heno> (and try to avoid the UDS-flu)
<ara> ok! bye!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-04
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
<rochdi> Hi
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
<Koon> who's here for the Java meeting ?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
 * robilad waves
<persia> o/
 * Koon pings slytherin
<Koon> o/
<Koon> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is Koon.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Koon> Nothing special except Roadmap review on the Agenda
<Koon> [TOPIC] Java on the server stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Java on the server stack
<Koon> robilad: any progress to report ?
<robilad> Koon: I am just unclawing myself from a heap of mail
<robilad> so no, not really.
<robilad> glassfish v3 just got released a while ago
<robilad> so I asked around for the source code tarball
<persia> I noticed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glassfish/+spec/server-j2ee-container is scheduled for UDS, which might be interesting
<robilad> got a description of the tags to use to check it out
<robilad> it uses maven extensively to build
<Koon> persia: interesting yes, I'll try to join remotely that one
<robilad> (like pretty much anything else out there)
<Koon> robilad: any clue on the final number of external JARs needed ?
<robilad> and I haven't been able to find the time to rebuild the final release and count them yet.
<Koon> maven should no longer be an obstacle, but library packaging will sure be
<robilad> ah, great!
<Koon> robilad: are you coming at UDS ?
<robilad> I missed that completely, sorry.
<robilad> unfortunately, no - I'llbe presenting at devoxx next week in belgium
<robilad> but I'll try to join in remotely
<Koon> ok, anything else to report on that front ?
<robilad> I know that joe darcy (openjdk) was planning to come over, I don't know who'll be there from glassfish, etc.
<Koon> At least Abhijit, apparently.
<robilad> not from me - I saw there was some progress on the blueprints, and I need to look at them.
<robilad> cool
<Koon> [TOPIC] Move to universe
<robilad> then I'll get in touch with him.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Move to universe
<Koon> slytherin: ^
<slytherin> We have progressed slowly on that front in last week. But we should have major progress this week if jboss gets built.
<slytherin> once jboss is built all the jboss packages will move to universe.
<Koon> slytherin: good, one more contender for the J2EE space :)
<robilad> nice!
<slytherin> Koon: right, it tool two release cycles for this contender to enter the race. :-P
<Koon> note that I was contacted by the Geronimo devs that would really want to be in too
<slytherin> Koon: Nice. Tell them not to use maven for building. :-D
<Koon> but their build system heavily relies on Maven + lots and lots of JARs
<persia> So we'll have three J2EE containers?
<Koon> so it's a LOT of work to package
<Koon> and in the end it might even not work, since they expressely test a specific combination of those 3rd party jars
<Koon> persia: at that point we have 0.9
<Koon> th rest is just talk
<Koon> slytherin: anything else on that front ?
<slytherin> Koon: Not much. Will be filing bug for libjogl-java today and worldwind eventually.
<Koon> ok
<Koon> [TOPIC] Maven build support
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maven build support
<Koon> Lots of progress on that front.
 * robilad looks forward to hearing all about it
<Koon> Ludovic Claude basically started to implement tools
<Koon> remember that we settled for a system where we rebuild the maven repo at build-time using symlinks to the real system JARs
<Koon> Ludovic created tools to help in that process
<robilad> nice - that's what maven-helper does?
<Koon> mvn-go-offline downloads all dependencies
<Koon> mvn-debianize walks through those dependencies and asks where they should point in the filesystem
<Koon> that builds a maven-depmap.xml file that you ship in debian/
<Koon> then in debian/rules:
<Koon> (first you add maven-helper in your build-deps)
<Koon> mh_prepare_repo reconstructs the POM files and the symlink
<Koon> mh_mvn calls mvn with the right options
<Koon> mh_clean cleans up
<robilad> very cool
<Koon> I updated the spec accordingly
<robilad> thanks
<Koon> yes, he did a great job
<Koon> now he started packaging the missing libraries
<Koon> those that every maven build will use
<Koon> he needs help in that area, since he is missing debian packaging experience
<slytherin> just some heads up, ï»¿Ludovic contacted me about sponsorship/review/help for the packaging. I hope to find some time this weekend.
<Koon> slytherin: that's great !
<Koon> so this is showing good progress
<robilad> that's really cool - it's in ludovic's PPA?
<Koon> The spec contains pointers to current work
<Koon> the mh_tools are in his PPA
<Koon> (maven-helper)
<robilad> ok, thanks!
<Koon> the mvn-* tools are installed manually
<Koon> since we are missing a few JARs
<Koon> any other question on that topic ?
<slytherin> none form my side
<Koon> [TOPIC] Kill Sun Java 5
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kill Sun Java 5
<persia> Perhaps "retire" might be a better word?
<Koon> slytherin: ^
<slytherin> I haven't found time to draft a spec.
<Koon> I've talked about it in the server team, and we might want to keep Java 5 around, as an option
<Koon> but we should definitely make sure all software works with openjdk6
<Koon> and doesn't require an older version
<slytherin> Koon: Anything specific that does not work with Java 6?
<persia> So perhaps the main thrust of the effort should be on removing the requirement for 1.4 and 5, but not actually removing them?
<Koon> slytherin: as an example, I used to build Tomcat6 at Java 6 bytecode level
<Koon> and I received several requests to build at Java 5
<Koon> because some people have application code that doesn't work well in java 6
<slytherin> Koon: But you can do that with java 6 as well. You don't need java 5 for building at source level 5
<Koon> or wasn't certified for it
<Koon> they want to run Tomcat6 with a Java 5 jre
<slytherin> ok.
<Koon> (I still build with openjdk-6)
<slytherin> I am fine with keeping it around if we are going to migrate all rdepends.
<Koon> yes, that needs to be done
<slytherin> But then we will have to remove it at start of next cycle so that no Debian packages with java 5 as build dep land in Ubuntu.
<persia> Might also be interesting to update the long description to suggest users try a newer JRE
<Koon> persia: is it an acceptable usage of long descriptions ?
<Koon> "DON'T USE ME" :)
<persia> Well, "This package represents an older implementation.  Most users will be better served by A or B"
<Koon> slytherin: maybe integrate that in the retire spec ^
<slytherin> Koon: sure
<Koon> ok, anything else on that ?
<slytherin> nope
<Koon> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<persia> I noticed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/java-for-jaunty yesterday, which might be interesting, although most of us are only attending via VoIP.
<robilad> the major thing for 7 on sun's side will be the new modules system to be used to split the jdk into ideas akin to those we bounced around here
<Koon> which track is it on ?
<persia> I suspect foundations, but base that entirely on the identity of the assignee
<Koon> Thursday, 3pm
<robilad> mr posted a series of blogs describing the ideas behind it: http://blogs.sun.com/mr/entry/massive_monolithic_jdk , http://blogs.sun.com/mr/entry/packaging_java_code , http://blogs.sun.com/mr/entry/modular_java_platform and http://blogs.sun.com/mr/entry/jigsaw
<persia> That's 23:00 UTC?
<Koon> persia: I think so
<robilad> also mentions early 2010 for delivering 7.
<Koon> server-j2ee-container wasn't accepted for a UDS session
<persia> Well, that's not entirely bad, as we've already some plans for those directions, not documented in that spec.
<Koon> robilad: interesting pointers, thx
<Koon> anything else to add ?
<robilad> nothing from my side.
<robilad> more on that next week, once I've had a chance to digest it all.
<Koon> [TOPIC] Next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting
<Koon> With UDS next week, do we skip the team meeting ?
<persia> Are enough of us going to UDS that we're blocked?  Meeting is at 6:00am in the UDS timezone.
<persia> Alternately, are we expecting to be sufficiently distracted by other things that we're not expecting progress for next week?
<slytherin> can anyone please point me to UDS schedule and the listening arrangement?
<Koon> slytherin: it's dificult to see if you don't register as attending
<persia> Has it been posted?  Usually happens only a couple days in advance (although I'm still behind on email)
<Koon> it's still a moving target
<slytherin> Ok. I thought it was already posted.
<slytherin> ï»¿I believe we should have meeting next week to keep watch on maven progress at least.
<Koon> yes.
<Koon> next week, same time, same place
<Koon> ?
<slytherin> right
<Koon> slytherin: I'm interested in getting the listening details too, when I have them I'll forward to you.
<persia> I'm good for that.
<slytherin> Koon: sure
<persia> The details are usually put on the UDS wiki page, and often sent to ubuntu-devel@
<Koon> ok, have a great week, and persia, have a good UDS trip.
<Koon> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:47.
<Koon> persia, slytherin: one of you can chair next week ?
<slytherin> Koon: I can.
<persia> slytherin, Let me know if something comes up, as I'm also available.
<Koon> slytherin: great. Since my wife can give birth anytime, I prefer to delegate.
<robilad> all the best!
<slytherin> Koon: all the best. :-)
<slytherin> persia: Sure
<Koon> thx!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Dec 19:00: LoCo Council | 16 Dec 01:00: Forum Council | 16 Dec 11:00: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-05
<Gregorio> hello, hope I'm not interrupting a meeting, just found a reference to this channel on your wiki/launchpad and have a question
<Gregorio> does anyone know what channel, web page, e-mail list etc would get me started researching web services plan (aka webplications :-) in Ubuntu?
<Gregorio> no hits so far on my searches... so any pointers to Blueprints or other docs greatly appreciated
<Seveas> anyone here for the EMEA meeting already?
<PriceChild> I 'may' be available for EMEA meeting for another 55 minutes however I can't be counted on as I mentioned on ML/planner.
<forumsmatthew> Hopefully it will be quick. Anyway, I'm here.
<Seveas> I don't see any of the candidates yet, so it might be *very* quick :)
<forumsmatthew> :)
<forumsmatthew> It's a tough time of year to get things done.
<Seveas> it's the most wonderful time of the year
<forumsmatthew> agreed
 * Seveas bought his christmaspresents early this year
<Seveas> tv was dying, so bought a nice full hd 60cm flatscreen \o/
<forumsmatthew> nice!
<Seveas> 1920x1200 if you attach a computer
<PriceChild> jealous
<Seveas> built in dvb-t tuner
 * Seveas is in his geeky place :)
<PriceChild> no idea what i'm going to get people :(
<forumsmatthew> I'm building a play fort in my yard for my kids
<forumsmatthew> ladder, climbing wall, slide, swings
<Seveas> awesome
<Seveas> can I come play? :)
<forumsmatthew> anytime you like :)
<PriceChild> yeah, nevermind "for my kids"
<forumsmatthew> the floor of the platform is about 2 meters off the ground, so "climbing wall" is probably overstating the case, unless you are young or small
<Seveas> who cares :)
<Seveas> wanna hear something ironic?
<forumsmatthew> yes
<Seveas> perl is one of the languages I like least
<Seveas> but now I'm sysadmin for the boxes behind perl5.git.perl.org
<Seveas> irony in a nutshell :)
<forumsmatthew> wow!
 * stgraber waves
 * forumsmatthew waves back
<Seveas> hi stgraber
<stgraber> I'll have to leave in an hour
<Seveas> none of the candidates have shown up yet
<Seveas> let's give them 10 more minutes before calling it a loss :)
<forumsmatthew> +1
<stgraber> ok
<forumsmatthew> dxter emailed, so we know where he is. Any of the others contact anyone?
<phanatic> nope
<Seveas> didn't see any mail either
<munckfish> Hi sorry I'm late
<forumsmatthew> good timing, we were just about to call the meeting
<Seveas> munckfish, you're actually the first one to show up and just in time :)
<munckfish> Oh good, I just got home now :S
<Seveas> stgraber, phanatic PriceChild
<Seveas> we've got one!
<phanatic> great :)
<Seveas> munckfish, can you introduce yourself in a few lines please?
<munckfish> Sure
<munckfish> My contribution has mostly been in getting the PS3 version running again
<munckfish> I installed gutsy on it first
<munckfish> then found out it was dead on Hardy and decided to help out
<munckfish> Colin W, the kernel team and others have been sponsoring patches for me
<munckfish> X team too. That's about it really.
<munckfish> Will that do?
<PriceChild> munckfish: is there any reason why you decided to go for ubuntu membership rather than ubuntu contributing developer?
<munckfish> Yes
<munckfish> 2 reasons
<munckfish> 1, gouki advised I should do it
<munckfish> 2, reading the wiki, it advised to become a member first, then proceed to MOTU
<Seveas> which page is that? seems to be outdated
<munckfish> Oh, I'll look for it
<munckfish> unless I misunderstood
<Seveas> the 'proper' way to MOTU is via ubuntu contributing developer etc.
<stgraber> you can now become an ubuntu member based on your packaging work, then you can become a MOTU. There are now many ways to get Ubuntu membership
<munckfish> Which means ... roughly what I've been doing?
<Seveas> but I see a problem with that: you're fixing things mostly in main instead of universe :)
<stgraber> the local councils are only one way, mainly used when doing something else than packaging work
<Seveas> munckfish, roughly but not quite
<Seveas> however, I'm quite impressed with the work I see
<munckfish> Seveas: thx
<Seveas> maintaining a port virtually on your own is not easy
<munckfish> Seveas: but very interesting
<Seveas> what is the contribution you're most proud of?
<munckfish> and hopefully not solo for the next cycle
<stgraber> anyway, it also shows quite a lot of QA work outside of simply packaging work so I'm fine with dealing with that application
 * PriceChild notes top contributors on https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ps3-port
<munckfish> Seveas: it's difficult to say, my contributions have really been lots of small fixes which as whole have made it work again
<Seveas> fair enough
<PriceChild> uu scottish
<munckfish> I'm proud of the whole lot, but I'm really proud of having the opportunity to contribute to core core stuff like X and the kernel
<Seveas> +1 from me, good work and I don't doubt the good work will continue
<forumsmatthew> I have to say, I'm impressed and feeling really good about this
<forumsmatthew> +1
<stgraber> +1
<munckfish> PriceChild: no, adopted scottish, I'm from Hampshire/Southampton
<PriceChild> munckfish: not that that interests me me more than the real reason you're here!
<munckfish> PriceChild: :)
<PriceChild> +1 from me too!
<Seveas> if he were a real scotsman, would you have said -1? :P
<Seveas> phanatic, your vote please
<phanatic> +1 of course. i hope you'll get more help during next cycle!
<Seveas> so thats +5, welcome in the club :)
<munckfish> Thanks guys
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<munckfish> Wahaaaay!
<phanatic> welcome munckfish :)
<Seveas> added in LP
<Seveas> end of meeting, see you in a few weeks :)
<munckfish> Any advice for the optimal route to MOTU from here? I think I need to get some solid time doing new packaging maybe?
<PriceChild> munckfish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU#So%20you%20want%20to%20be%20a%20MOTU?
<Seveas> /join #ubuntu-motu
<Seveas> :)
<munckfish> PriceChild: yeah I'll take a look, just wasn't sure I was following the traditional route so far
<PriceChild> that too
<munckfish> Great thanks guys
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-07
<ButterflyOfFire> Hello, Bonjour tout le monde
<ButterflyOfFire> Could you tell me where can I add myself to apply for Ubuntu Membership ?
<bazhang> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<ButterflyOfFire> The last page where I landed is :
<ButterflyOfFire> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<ButterflyOfFire> Thanks bazhang , I followed all the steps ;)
<ButterflyOfFire> Okay I'll edit the board and add my name then :p
<ButterflyOfFire> then ... wait and see
<ButterflyOfFire> ^^
<ButterflyOfFire> I think that a translation is needed for this kind of process
<ButterflyOfFire> Thanks anyway ;)
<ButterflyOfFire> See ya
<ButterflyOfFire> All right it's done
<Zic> I read somewhere that Ubuntu Members needs to re-approval any 2 years
<Zic> what they should do to re-approve them ?
<elkbuntu> Zic, you'll get an email when it's time.
<elkbuntu> Zic, the email will tell you to click a link to extend membership.
<Zic> elkbuntu: oh, simply a click? I thought that I'll need to represent myself to the Community Council, it's why I asked my question ;)
<elkbuntu> Zic, you only need to represent if your membership actually expires.
<Zic> elkbuntu: ok, thanks!
<ButterflyOfFire> :)
<elkbuntu> it's basically just a 'are you still alive, ok, carry on' thing
<Zic> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-30
<gagita> my karmic doesn't detect sound hardware in compaq nc6230
<gagita> anybody can help me please ??
<nhandler> gagita: You should try #ubuntu for support
<gagita> nhandler: okay
<czajkowski> baffling how folks end up in here for support
<FFEMTcJ> hehe czajkowski
<czajkowski> FFEMTcJ: hi
<FFEMTcJ> mornin
<liel> Hello
<FFEMTcJ> hi
<kees> jdstrand_, mdeslaur: ready to do meeting?
<jdstrand_> sure
<mdeslaur> sure
<kees> okidoky.  I'm on vacation this week.  should we swap with the 2009-12-14 week for duties?
<kees> or is there some other way we should handle it?
<jdstrand_> kees: mdeslaur said he'd take triage
<jdstrand_> I'll take community
<mdeslaur> yep
<mdeslaur> I don't think we need to officially swap
<jdstrand_> kees: we can fight it out next week
<kees> right, which is the 2009-12-14 week's schedule.  I want to make sure I don't just skip out on doing triage
<kees> er, ok
<kees> I'll triage next week then
<jdstrand_> ok, I'll continue with community next week then
<kees> I'll likely be doing a kernel publication this week some time too
<kees> I love my vague definition of "on holiday"  :P
<mdeslaur> hehe
<kees> can someone coordinate with lamont on bind9 too?  I'd really like a PoC for that.
 * lamont looks up
<kees> lamont: bind9 is public now. do you know of any PoC we can use for testing?
<lamont> I haven't found any reproducer script at all
<lamont> not sure but what it might have been theoretical, maybe?
<kees> oh.  hm, ok
<lamont> though from the writeup, I expect it was seen somewhere, just not with an attack per se
<lamont> i'll poke upstream again
<kees> have you had a chance to do hardy and newer packages?  mdeslaur prepared the dapper backport
<kees> I'll assume not.  :)
<kees> mdeslaur: do you want to continue with bind9 since you've done the dapper bit already?
<mdeslaur> kees: yeah, sure
<kees> jdstrand_: you still there?  saw drop/reconnect there..
<jdstrand_> I am here
<kees> ok, cool
<kees> just checking.  :)
<mdeslaur> so, I'm working on lucid php5 now, and will start bind9 after
<mdeslaur> also, I'm on triage
<mdeslaur> that's all for now
<jdstrand_> I am on community this week
<jdstrand_> I plan to look over the fake sync stuff and coordinate with stefanlsd as needed
<jdstrand_> beyond that, I have a libvirt merge, ufw SRU, apparmor for ff branches (I now have commit access) and get back to rhc
<kees> cool.
<kees> alright, so, lucid planning.  we've got a bunch of blueprints, but we didn't really show our "TODO" items, since we didn't know bloueprints would be turned into the burn-down chart stuff.
<jdstrand_> I am almost caught up on email, and need to do irc backscroll
<jdstrand_> beyond that, I need to go through all the blueprints (which I think we are going to discuss next)
<kees> cool, yeah, shall we do that?
<kees> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid?searchtext=security
<mdeslaur> sure
<jdstrand> kees: sure
<kees> ok, so, I think we have two things to cover:
<kees> 1) what is *not* shown in blueprints that should be represented by our burndown chart?
<kees> 2) what priorities should we set for blueprints?
<kees> with #1, I know of sVirt and ufw work.
<kees> and I've got mmap_min_addr work, and more PIE work
<mdeslaur> should we just add them to the catchall blueprint?
<kees> the PIE and mmap_min_addr work probably should go there, yeah
<kees> but it feels like sVirt and ufw might be better served by being separate.  jdstrand: is the sVirt stuff already shown in the lxc blueprint?
<jdstrand> I finally read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto this morning, which helped
<kees> heh
<jdstrand> kees: I'm not doing lxc
<jdstrand> kees: there was some confusion there I think
<kees> jdstrand: right, absolutely.  I guess I meant the "bug 480478" item
 * kees goes to read that bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 480478 in libvirt "libvirt's apparmor profile doesn't allow execution of /usr/lib/libvirt/libvirt_lxc" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/480478
<jdstrand> kees: there is no sVirt support for lxc, so it would require a *lot* of resources that we don't have (not to mention, upstream coordination for selinux)
<jdstrand> kees: oh, that'll be fixed fast
<kees> right, totally, I don't mean that -- that's totally unscoped.
<kees> ok.  is there any sVirt work beyond that bug?
<jdstrand> kees: the sVirt stuff is <backingstore>, hostdev and state files
<kees> ah! right, I remember now.
<kees> ok, I think that since sVirt and ufw work both have long lists of things you want to get done, they should have their own blueprints.  is that cool with you?
<jdstrand> that all requires work, but I don't think anything crazy
<jdstrand> kees: it is, though I am not completely sure on the approach
<jdstrand> kees: eg, I have 3 libvirt items (see above)
<jdstrand> I also need to do a merge and do regular maintenance of the driver
<jdstrand> I guess the merge is TODO
<jdstrand> but the other shouldn't be tracked
<kees> yeah, basically every action you can reasonably imagine at this point should get broken out into a work item.
<kees> why shouldn't the other be tracked?
<jdstrand> kees: cause 'regular maintenance' is a 'forever item'
<kees> ok, fair enough
<jdstrand> we track something that I can't close?
<jdstrand> s/we/why/
<kees> yeah, good way to test a workitem.
<jdstrand> I am not asserting that position-- I just don't have a firm grip on the new bp process
<jdstrand> (though, it seems to make sense)
<kees> no, I think that's correct.  regular maint work hasn't shown up in anyone else's burndown chart, I don't think.
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> so, with ufw, perhaps I'll just add the stuff to a new bp that I plan to work on?
<jdstrand> mark it all TODO
<kees> ok, so if you can create security-lucid-libvirt-devel (or something) and security-lucid-ufw-devel (or appropriate) and add the items, we'll be good
<jdstrand> then the rest stays in the roadmap
 * jdstrand nods
<kees> sounds good.
<kees> I just want our burn-down charts to do a reasonable job of approximating our devel work.
<jdstrand> I do need to add firefox/apparmor to that list then
<jdstrand> (the catchall)
<jdstrand> since I need to get it going in the 3.6 and 3.7 branches
<kees> the odd bit is how our team deals with devel work, though, and for that we need robbiew to tell us what a burndown chart means for us when we can't commit to all our devel tasks.
 * kees nods
<robbiew> hmm
<jdstrand> we at least can't commit to the strict time frames of the burndown
<robbiew> not sure if the burndown chart applies, but having the work items explicitly listed does
<jdstrand> there are some things we can commit to, surely, but it won't be the pretty diagonal line
<robbiew> also the Status view on the report.html file is a quick way to get a pulse on the progress
<kees> our chart, btw, is here: http://piware.de/workitems/security/lucid/report.html
 * robbiew doesn't expect to see a pretty dotted line ;)
<robbiew> that is, no one is dinged for having to make tradeoffs between nice-to-have development work and required security updates ;)
 * kees wishes there was "essential" in addition to "open", "finished", and "postponed"
<jdstrand> yeah, that would help express our situation better
<jdstrand> the burndown, doesn't have priorities at all
<jdstrand> (maybe that is by design, I don't know)
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> kees: so, as for '1'-- there may be a few things I'll add as I go through the bps
<kees> rather, I nod in agreement with not knowing
<jdstrand> kees: I can't think of anything else otoh
<kees> jdstrand: right, totally.  I expect we'll hit stuff we didn't consider.
<jdstrand> kees: so, 2'? (priorities)
<kees> jdstrand: I tried to be conservative with items, "present fscaps to Debian", "refactor with Debian feedback", etc.
<kees> right, so, for 2.  there was confusion in email about this.
<kees> the biggest issue, is, I think, the catchall priority, as some things are essential, and some are low, etc
<jdstrand> yeah, I saw some of that-- I'll read through it all and try to try to be appropriate ;)
<jdstrand> kees: well, maybe we should break out the essential items into its own bp?
<jdstrand> security-lucid-catchall-essential or some such
<kees> jdstrand: I was pondering such a thing, yeah.  robbiew, does that make sense?  it also smells like overkill
<mdeslaur> why not just prefix each item there with a priority
<kees> mdeslaur: that seems like a better middle-ground for now.
<jdstrand> will that mess up the scripting?
<kees> mdeslaur: it'll capture the information, and if we need to break out, we can do it mechanically
<jdstrand> maybe:
<mdeslaur> well, something like [mdeslaur] low - do this and that: TODO
<robbiew> kees: +1
<kees> right
<jdstrand> [nick] (essential) text..: TODO
<robbiew> after reviewing it last night, I felt the same about breaking it out
<robbiew> but didn't want to freak anyone out by making that request ;)
<kees> robbiew: +1 to separate blueprints?
<robbiew> yes
<robbiew> sorry
<kees> ok
<mdeslaur> ok
 * robbiew is doing too much multitasking :/
<kees> heh
<jdstrand> kees: so should we go through the catchall list for what should be essential?
<kees> jdstrand: yes, though it sounds like we should make ...-catchall-essential, ...-catchall-high, etc,
<kees> and move stuff appropriately.
<jdstrand> that's fine
<jdstrand> kees: if we decide the prioritiies, I'll shuffle everything around
<kees> jdstrand: ok
<jdstrand> clean up on pam_apparmor: medium?
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> upstartify apparmor:  essential?
<mdeslaur> yes
<kees> yeah
<kees> (i'll take notes)
<jdstrand> split apparmor profile loading to separate packages: ?
<kees> essential
<jdstrand> what does this mean exactly?
<kees> it's technically part of AA upstartification, but it'll take a while
<kees> aa itself needs to be upstartified, which includes changes to mountall (to get the securityfs mounted)
<jdstrand> is this the kernel saying "oh, I have a profile for this executable, let's load it?"
<jdstrand> s/?"/"?/
<kees> and the individual profiles should be loaded before starting various services.
<jdstrand> sure, ok
<kees> no, not kernel-triggered loading, but just upstart loading
<jdstrand> switch Firefox profile on for Lucid dev cycle: ?
<kees> i.e. load dhcp profile in the pre-start to interface-up
<jdstrand> for dev, essential
<jdstrand> for release, err, 'not essential'?
<jdstrand> :)
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> well, I tweaked that to say 'dev' anyway
<kees> for the evince/firefox bits, I think "high" for the tests, "medium" for the doing it
<jdstrand> ok, next...
<jdstrand> k
<kees> I'll split the fscaps between High and medium, I think
<jdstrand> kees: why don't you take this next batch, since it is all assigned to you
<kees> k
<kees> execution blocking: high
<kees> mmap_min_addr: medium
<kees> mono stack: low
<kees> execstack list: essential
<jdstrand> kees: hold on
<jdstrand> execution blocking: high -- is that EXE or nautlius, or both?
<jdstrand> (and jar, et al)
<kees> it's making sure that neither wine nor nautilus runs stuff
<kees> exe is wine, desktop is nautilus
<kees> (there are 3 tasks)
<jdstrand> right, ok
<jdstrand> 'high'
 * kees nods
<kees> what is "obtain a list of distros partner vendor apps support" ?
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> that was seeing if a vendor just supports ubuntu and redhat, say, and then we tell them "oh, well, then you can enable these compiler flags, since we both already do that"
<mdeslaur> yes
<mdeslaur> kees: that was your idea :P
<kees> ah! right.
<kees> uhm, medium.
 * jdstrand wonders about the difference between medium and low...
<jdstrand> anyhoo, medium sounds fine
<kees> low is "hah, yeah, won't that be nice"
<kees> at least, that's my take on it
<jdstrand> heh, ok
<kees> should early EOL go to mvo?
<jdstrand> I would think so
<kees> UUSN: low
<kees> early EOL: high? med?
<jdstrand> push clamav from -backports to -security: essential (but a < lucid task)
<jdstrand> kees: medium?
<jdstrand> kees: but it feels weird assigning a priority for someone else
<kees> right, but this is just our starting plan.  we can adjust.
<jdstrand> ok
<kees> motu process update: essential (since it is easy) ?
 * jdstrand nods
<mdeslaur> sure
<kees> ok, I've rearranged catchall by priority and added tasks for creating the other blueprints.
<kees> so, "create essential: TODO" followed by all the essential stuff to move there.
<jdstrand> kees: sounds good-- this is in the whiteboard?
<kees> yup.  that way the burndown chart will still work until the bps exist
<jdstrand> ok-- I assigned them to me for now
<jdstrand> I plan to do the bp stuff today
<kees> cool
<kees> alrighty, are the other bps prioritized appropriately?
<kees> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid?searchtext=security
<jdstrand> kees: screenlocking is the wiki page creation?
<kees> jdstrand: correct
<kees> jdstrand: a usable way to triage screenlocking issues.
<kees> it is not getting the bugs fixed.
<kees> though tedg made it sound like many were fixed in karmic.
<jdstrand> right
<jdstrand> I think security-lucid-apparmor-usability is essential
<kees> wow, really?  there were some big features in there.
 * jdstrand looks again
<kees> I wasn't really comfortable committing to them all.
<jdstrand> oh
<jdstrand> I was speaking of likewise and tunables as essential
<kees> I don't see those items, should they go in the abstractions bp?
<jdstrand>  * dealing with tunables and likewise-open
<kees> I'm confused, where is that from?
<jdstrand> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-lucid-apparmor-usability
<jdstrand> first item
<kees> oh! in the description.
<kees> erm... it's not in the workitems list.  :P
<jdstrand> ah right
<jdstrand> I haven't gone through my bps yet
<jdstrand> sorry
<kees> I would say either move to workitem and leave it as "high", or move it to the catchall-essential.
<jdstrand> maybe I will break out tunables to another bp, eg security-lucid-apparmor-tunables
<jdstrand> then mark that essential?
<kees> that sounds fine to me
<jdstrand> seems fine
<jdstrand> security-lucid-ubuntu-and-debian seems maybe 'medium', but low is ok if others think that is fine
<jdstrand> (it isn't difficult anyway)
<mdeslaur> i think low until we find someone from debian who wants to help
<kees> it's not difficult, but when compared against other stuff, it seemed like a "low".  if I'm in the minority there, we can raise it, I don't object to "med"
<jdstrand> I don't care
<jdstrand> :)
<kees> low it is.  :)
<jdstrand> ok, so that should be it then, no?
<kees> yeah, I think we're good.
<jdstrand> cool
<kees> robbiew: did you already do your "here's what we're doing" report, or is that still pending?
<jdstrand> kees: so yeah, enjoy your time off and don't worry about blueprints this week :)
<kees> jdstrand: awesome!  :)
<robbiew> did it for Foundations only
<kees> ok
<robbiew> provided a link to mark for security
 * kees nods
<robbiew> but doubt he's had a chance to look through it today
<jdstrand> robbiew: I'll work on the security team ones today
<robbiew> cool, thnx
<kees> alrighty, thanks guys.  :)
<mdeslaur> c ya kees!
<jdstrand> o/
<kees> \o
<Seeker`> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:47. The chair is Seeker`.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Seeker`> [topic] Test, please work!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Test, please work!
<Seeker`> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:48.
<ScottK> Unless someone else was planning on using this channel (it's unscheduled), we'll hold a kubuntu-dev application meeting here in 5 minutes.
<st33med> I was going to use it to talk to people about switching to Windows </sarcasm>
<Tm_T> st33med: we had that meeting earlier this month I think
<JontheEchidna> heh
<st33med> Oh, I guess I missed it
<st33med> :)
<ScottK> \o
<st33med> Bill gates will not be happy with me
<st33med> >.>
<ScottK> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:01. The chair is ScottK.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ScottK> apachelogger, Riddell, nixternal ?
<apachelogger> ahoy ahoy
<ScottK> OK.  That's two.  We need three for a quorum.
<nixternal> oi
<ScottK> JontheEchidna are you here?  That's all we need.
<JontheEchidna> yay, 3
<JontheEchidna> yup
<ScottK> OK.  It's been 5 minutes and we have a quorum, let's stary.
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: Where's you're application?
<JontheEchidna> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/JonathanThomas/KubuntuDevApplication
<ScottK> [LINK] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/JonathanThomas/KubuntuDevApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/JonathanThomas/KubuntuDevApplication
<ScottK> apachelogger and nixternal: You've reviewed this, right?
<apachelogger> aye
 * ScottK goes straight to questions ...
<Tonio__> hi
<JontheEchidna> o/
<ScottK> Excellent.  Hello Tonio_.
<ScottK> Tonio_: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/JonathanThomas/KubuntuDevApplication
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: If you're a kubuntu-dev, you'll have access to Kubuntu's seeds.  Any thoughts on that?  Have you done anything with seed changes?
<JontheEchidna> I have done some work with the Kubuntu seeds. let me see if I can find the bzr branch
<JontheEchidna> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~echidnaman/ubuntu-seeds/mykubuntu
<JontheEchidna> ^as part of the gtk-qt-engine -> kde-style-qtcurve transition
<ScottK> [LINK] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~echidnaman/ubuntu-seeds/mykubuntu
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~echidnaman/ubuntu-seeds/mykubuntu
<ScottK> OK.
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: how closely are you working with Debian with the KDE packages? Are you contributing directly back to Debian in such cases?
<JontheEchidna> In all honesty, working with Debian is not a strong point for me. I do, however, work with the Debian maintainer of the konq-plugins package
<JontheEchidna> we subscribe to the feeds to each others' vcs-es for the packaging
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: After your seed change gets applied, how to you get the metapackage change in the archive?
<JontheEchidna> Hmm.. let me see if I can remember
 * Tonio_ has an improvised network meeting... grrrrrrr... brb
<JontheEchidna> I know Tonio sponsored a lot of my packages during the transition
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: It isn't essential.  If you don't know, that's fine.
<JontheEchidna> Yeah, Tonio sponsored the changes I believe
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: What should we be doing differently.  We advertised kubunut-dev has having a voice in technical direction of Kubuntu.  What would you change?
<JontheEchidna> If more developers would look at the bug tracker more often, then that would be great.
<JontheEchidna> Sometimes I feel that bugs fall by the wayside because nobody ever looks at them
<JontheEchidna> I know we have a limited pool of resources, but it gets frustrating at times
<rgreening> JontheEchidna: Do you have a proposal to make bug triage, solving more accessible for new entrants?
 * ScottK nods.
<rgreening> :)
<JontheEchidna> hmm
<ScottK> I don't have any more questions.
<JontheEchidna> well in general it's not so much the triage, but what happens (or doesn't) after that
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: speaking of bugs, when you upload a new package, do you see if the new upload may close already open bugs? I think many developers not doing this, is the reason for so many stale bugs that may no longer be an issue
<JontheEchidna> Yeah, as one of the primary bug triagers I keep a close eye on bugs that new uploads release
<JontheEchidna> since I wear both developer and bug triager hats
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: do you test every package for regressions prior to uploading? if so, what kind of process do you go through when testing?
<JontheEchidna> After I pbuild the package I install it to make sure it installs fine, then do simple stuff with the application
 * nixternal appologizes for not endorsing, I am bad at that for some reason
<ScottK> nixternal: It's OK.  There's more tension if not everyone with a vote has pre-endorsed the application.
<nixternal> true, that means I can play bad cop then :p
<ScottK> Tonio_ or apachelogger: Questions?
<apachelogger> nothing here
<Tonio_> ScottK: not for me...
<ScottK> nixternal: Any more from you?
<apachelogger> nixternal is bad cop so must have some more bad cop questions
<apachelogger> :D
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: ScottK stated in the areas of imporvement -> "As with anyone, he could sometimes stand to be a bit more careful..." what are you doing now to be more careful that you might not have previously?
<nixternal> of course I always have questions
<nixternal> you get good at this stuff after doing membership stuff for more than 2 years in the development arena :)
<nixternal> plus dholbach and persia` aren't around, so they can't beat me to a question :)
<JontheEchidna> for the example here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdelibs/ubuntu/revision/130
<apachelogger> nixternal: lol
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: what text editor do you use?
<JontheEchidna> I could have paid more attention to what debuild was saying
<nixternal> I know with vim, it will highlight mistakes like that in the changelog
<JontheEchidna> nixternal: nano
<apachelogger> Oo
 * nixternal giggles a bit
<apachelogger> that just made me shiver
<apachelogger> oh my
<ScottK> You totally should not have admitted that until after we voted.
<nixternal> emacs has the mistake highlighting as well
<JontheEchidna> ha
<nixternal> ScottK: haha, I was thinking the same exact thing
 * apachelogger needs to become bad cop now
<nixternal> hahahaha
 * nixternal hands the club over to apachelogger...get to beatin'!
 * apachelogger is not going to tell the story about MS engineer praising emacs now
 * rgreening will miss the Kubuntu icon.. 
<apachelogger> I think we should get to a vote before everyone realises that JontheEchidna uses nano :P
<ScottK> OK, any more questions before we vote?
<nixternal> none here
<nixternal> nano here rather :p
<JontheEchidna> lol
 * apachelogger actually read nano :P
<ScottK> [VOTE] JontheEchidna for kubuntu-dev (please only vote if you're in kubuntu-dev)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  JontheEchidna for kubuntu-dev (please only vote if you're in kubuntu-dev).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<apachelogger> MootBot: +1
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<apachelogger> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from apachelogger. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * ScottK looks at Tonio_
<Tonio_> +1 :)
<MootBot> +1 received from Tonio_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Tonio_> of course
<JontheEchidna> :)
 * apachelogger is wondering why we vote anyway :P
<ScottK> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nixternal> woo, congrats JontheEchidna \o/
<apachelogger> congrats JontheEchidna
<JontheEchidna> \o/
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: Congratulations.
<Mamarok> Congratulations, JontheEchidna!
<JontheEchidna> Thanks
<jussi01> congrats JontheEchidna
<rgreening> gratz
<nixternal> any other business?
 * JontheEchidna edits his next changelog in notepad.exe
<nixternal> hahaha
<rgreening> ouch
<nixternal> vi vi vi
<rgreening> wine notepad.exe
<nixternal> the sign of the devil!
<JontheEchidna> haha
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: that is going to get you into newline hell
<JontheEchidna> I kid :P
 * apachelogger reports bug about nano
<nixternal> ScottK: you gonna send out the email to all of the lists?
<ScottK> [ENDMEETING]
<ScottK> nixternal: Sure.
<JontheEchidna> ScottK: thanks a lot for organizing everything
<nixternal> kubuntu-devel, ubuntu-devel, CC, TB, with a cc: sabdfl
<rgreening> thanks ScottK :)
<nixternal> oh, ScottK and ubuntu-news :)
<apachelogger> cookies to ScottK!
 * nixternal gets the dog from outside before it freezes
<ScottK> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:26.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-01
<meanburrito920_> valgrind complains that my code has a jump that depends on an uninitialized value, but I believe that is what I want (check if a value is null before operating on it). Is this the correct behavior, or should I tell valgrind to ignore it?
<st33med> meanburrito920_, wrong roo
<st33med> room
<meanburrito920_> oops
<meanburrito920_> sorry, thought I was on ##programming :)
<Keybuk> meanburrito920_: damnit, I want to answer your question <g>
<Keybuk> why do you think that the value is NULL to begin with?:
<Keybuk> I suspect your error is that you're assuming the value has been initialised to NULL
<Keybuk> when, in fact, it hasn't
<Keybuk> so you really are comparing uninitialised data
<Keybuk> which is clearly the exact opposite of what you want
<Keybuk> since uninitialised data may well not be NULL <g>
<meanburrito920_> i dont know if it will be null; it gets passed in from a function
<Keybuk> right, valgrind follows things through
<meanburrito920_> lets move this discussion to ##programming instead of using this channel
<asac> hi
<StevenK> O hai
<ogra> moop
 * plars is
<davidm> hello
<asac> GrueMaster: dyfet: JamieBennett: meeting O'clock ;)
<cooloney> hello folks
<dyfet> hi
<asac> hi cooloney
<davidm> who is running the meeting?
 * GrueMaster Zzzzz.
 * ogra saw GrueMaster 
<asac> davidm: me i guess
<ogra> NCommander didnt hand it off to anyone :(
<asac> davidm: is using mootbot essential?
<davidm> asac, you need to start mootbot
<ogra> we usually use it
<davidm> asac, yes it logs the minutes
<asac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:03. The chair is asac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ericm> hi, all
<ericm> I assume this is a public meeting?
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
<ogra> ericm, yup
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
<asac> [TOPIC] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<asac> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=mobile+lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=mobile+lucid
<asac> so first thank you everyone for the spec work done
<ogra> mobile-lucid-arm-gcc-v7-thumb2 should be marked informational (since it was informational)
<asac> ogra: the idea is to document the rebuild procedure etc. there
<asac> will be finished today.
<ogra> right, but does that make it less informational ?
<ogra> its only documenting what we do on the go, no ?
<asac> ogra: it has actions attached
<ogra> well, apw attached one today
<ogra> which he already solved
<asac> ogra: no. i mean: the rebuild archive notes have actions
<asac> we should track imo
<ogra> ok
<asac> ok
<ogra> i thought that was covered by the lib testing one
<asac> so one thing we need to ensure is that the milestone target is about right by end of today
<ogra> if people arent aware yet davem created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 for the transition
<asac> there are quite a few with alpha-1 milestone ... which afaict sounds too eager
<asac> ogra: right. that will be referenced from the gcc spec
<ogra> currently it doesntz look like we can even make A1
<ogra> but i'll elaborate later (in the ARM topic)
<asac> right
<asac> JamieBennett: mobile-lucid-une-2d-launcher ... you think its realistic to have something at alpha-1?
 * asac answers questions and moves it to alpha-2
<asac> ogra: mobile-lucid-imx51-debian-cd-to-uboot ... is imx51 uboot done already?
<ogra> nope, only proof of concept
<ogra> but based on that i should be able to implement it until A2
<asac> ogra: implemente == includes the cleanup/unification?
<ogra> the image issues we have are more serious, i'm concentrating my dev/debug work on that atm
<asac> k
<ogra> no, unificatrion is NCommanders work, the uboot stuff for imx51 is the stuff thats not unifyable
<asac> ok but alpha-2 seems reasonable -> targetted for that milestone
<asac> right. just wanted to understand what work will be done by alpha-2 then
<ogra> yeah
<asac> mobile-lucid-arm-alternate-images -> targetted for alpha-1 ...
<ogra> i guess they buiold, didnt look depply yet
<asac> given that ncommander is on vacation till shortly before alpha-1, i would think thats not happening in time
<ogra> hmm, no, they dont
<ogra> there were no needed changes
<persia> Retargeting alternates for alpha-2 seems right.  There might be some for alpha-1, but they wouldn't be well tested.
<ogra> we used to build them before
<persia> We built them, but I don't think we tested the installs much.
<ogra> so the general builds should just happen
<asac> ok doing.
<ogra> right
<ogra> well, i tested all imx51 once during karmic
<asac> i think the milestone we communicate in the spec should be the "beta available" delivery
<ogra> but not for each milestone
<asac> so if we have QA and bugfixing actions they can be done after the mentioned milestone
<ogra> testing alt. images simply takes to long
<persia> That's good to hear.  I thought they were even less tested than that.
<asac> so "Smoke-test ARM alternate images built by the build system [2 days]: TODO"
<ogra> they all had bugs :)
<asac> needs more days?
<ogra> smoke test should be doable in 2 days
<persia> 2 days is enough to smoke-test 2 flavors on 2 boards, I'd say.
<ogra> proper testing would need more
<persia> Yeah.
<asac> ok i think smoke test is what is covered by the spec
<asac> the rest should go into our QA processes
<ogra> (alt install test on the babbage takes at least 3h per installation ... vs 1h for live)
<asac> ok next one: mobile-lucid-bringup-testing
<plars> asac: I'll have it partially done at A1, but would like to target for a2 completion
<asac> plars: i think this is mostly about documenting/specification of the testing and some checkbox support
<asac> plars: ok. so documentation/specification by A1, implementation/automization by A2?
<plars> asac: we need some additional tests, and a checkbox plugin
<plars> and a few other bits
<plars> right
<asac> ok
<asac> lets target it officially for alpha-2 then
<asac> plars: if you have work items yo know that will be finished for alpha-1 you can use this syntax:
<asac> Work items (MILESTONE):
<asac> ...
<plars> ok
<asac> MILESTONE=alpha-1 etc.
<asac> same for everyone ... if you want to split the work in chunks by milestones, you can use that syntax (pitti is working on implementating this for the burndownchart thing)
<asac> next: mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser
<asac> i think we should target both: optimized firefox as well as a chromium browser in archive for alpha-2
<dyfet> Okay....and a2?
<asac> there will be some issues that might take till beta, like how to best integrate with mailto/doc content on the desktop
<asac> but those should be tracked in other specs imo
<dyfet> The one I noted was with gconf keys for default browser, but yes, there is likely other issues
<asac> dyfet: there is quite a few things to evaluate/implement. lets talk about that after meeting
<dyfet> agreed
<asac> next: per-soc-powermanagement -> ogra, i assume we target that for alpha-2 too?
<ogra> yeah, at least
<ogra> we need to wait for the new kernels anyway
<asac> ogra: you are the assignee i guess?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> at least i have most of the action items
<asac> ogra: can you add the "wait for new kernel" action item?
<ogra> though its spread across people and teams
<ogra> yup
<ogra> it just struck me today that it doesnt makes sense to fiddle with the old kernels
<asac> ogra: ok. so alpha-3 is more realisitic?
<ogra> huh, i cant edit
<ogra> oh, somhow LP logged me out
<asac> hehe
<ogra> yeah, i guess
<ogra> ericm, cooloney, any ETA for new kernels ?
<ogra> (we currently have the karmic ones only)
<davidm> ogra, I think we have the kernel for Freescale it's not planned to change
<ericm> ogra, not atm
<cooloney> ogra: as we just talked in #kernel
<ogra> davidm, i was told differently by the kernel team today
<cooloney> since lucid imx51 kernel will still be .31
<cooloney> it will not be compiled into thumb2,
<cooloney> just let you guys know that.
<ogra> davidm, the lucid kernel will use the complete new FSL drop instead of our forward ported patches
<ogra> davidm, which definately adds delay
<davidm> ogra, not until such time as Freescale drops one
<asac> ok lets add a agenda item about "kernel status" and continue with specs for now?
<cooloney> ogra: yeah, seperate tree
<ogra> davidm, which is due this week
<ogra> yes
<asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-device-tree-support
<asac> JamieBennett: i assume that is earliest at alpha-3?
<ericm> asac, I think jk has done some prototyping work on this
<asac> JamieBennett: do you want a standalone agenda item to report about the progress monitoring?
<asac> "Weekly monitoring of Grants git tree and report progress (until delivery DATE): TODO"
<ericm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
<asac> ok tentatively targetted for alpha-3 now
<asac> next: mobile-lucid-arm-suspend-resume-testplan
<asac> i think we need to finish drafting this. i added summary/rational/design to the wiki page already
<asac> plars: want to fill in the Implementation details maybe?
<plars> asac: during the discussion, the implementation details were supposed to be filled in by those who came up with the tests
<asac> its mostly filling in a table where we can track progress on each testcase i think
<asac> right. imo we should fill in the points now... then as one workitem, assign individual testcases to martinbogo etc.
<asac> to fill in details, and implement in checkbox if possible
<plars> ok
<asac> ok i set you as a drafter for now. we can talk about this after the meeting
<plars> sounds good
<asac> lets also decide on the target milestone then.
<asac> next one: mobile-lucid-arm-une
<asac> StevenK: ok to merge this into the application-choices?
<dyfet> I took stevenk's suggestion to do so....so I hope it is :)
<dyfet> mobile-lucid-arm-application-choices
 * asac tries to do that now
<asac> ok that is a bit harder ... will do after meeting
<asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-debian-cd-cleanup
<asac> i assume that is blocked by the uboot for freescale
<asac> somewhat
<ogra> yep
<asac> so cannot happen by alpha-2
<asac> -> alpha-3
<ogra> it can
<ogra> it cant happen before
<asac> ok targetted for alpha-3
<ogra> the proof of concept i have is pretty fast to implement once i cleaned up the code both should be possible to happen hand in hand for the same milestone
<asac> ogra: right. alpha-3 doesnt mean that everything has to happen _after_ alpha-2 ;) ... we can do as much as possible before
<ogra> (depending on michael indeed, my side shouldnt block here though)
<asac> ok
<asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-ext-images
<asac> first ... is that really "Medium" priority?
<asac> rather than low?
 * ogra guesse that waits until after NCommanders holidays 
<asac> what win do we get from that?
<ogra> nothing really
<ogra> complication of the build process mainly :)
<asac> ok ... so priority Low i guess. feels like a beautification excersize to me
<ogra> and hardlink support in the images (which we dont need)
<ogra> i wouldnt even call it beautification :)
<asac> so how much ease would we gain from having ext2?
<asac> hmm
<ogra> it was triggered by the fact that the vfat images had a bug
<ogra> and cant use symlinks
<asac> right. but that is fixed afaict (the bug)
<ogra> both issues are solved
<asac> but would symlinks be something we want?
<ogra> switching the image build scripts to make ext2 iomages will definately add a lot complexity
<ogra> we dont need symlinks
<asac> ok lets put it to Low
<asac> and maybe consider to not implement this
<ogra> it only has a single action item anyway, no ?
 * ogra remembers persia's going over the TODOs and busting one by one in the session
<davidm> I'm in favor of dropping if we gain nothing
<ogra> with proper and valid arguments :)
<asac> davidm: right. but lets not just kill it while ncommander is gone. i noted it in the whiteboard to consider dropping it
<ogra> i would leave the banchmark thing in
<ogra> it will at least gain us some info we might be able to use later
<asac> next is mobile-lucid-efficient-install-testing
<ogra> all other TODOs depend on that one
<asac> plars: what milestone would you like to target this for?
<plars> when do we expect to have images building?
<asac> plars: feels like its something that is partly on QA team side
<plars> it is
<asac> plars: asap
<plars> they need to create virtual milestones to track this
<asac> plars: ok. have you discussed this in their meeting?
<plars> need someone with access to the iso tracker admin functions to do that
<asac> like: getting feedback if they are supportive etc.
<plars> asac: no, but discussed with ara at UDS, I didn't get the impression that it would be that big of a deal
<asac> ok. lets target it for alpha-2 then too for now... but with option to push the full implementation
<plars> I don't think there's a huge rush with it, due to the nature of the testing being done
<plars> that works for me
<asac> right. i see this more as a gradually process. first get it setup etc. in the end make it become standard procedure for the QA team
<asac> etc.
<plars> the focus is on mobile images for the moment
<plars> but they may be interested in picking it up for others as well
<plars> in reality, doing it *anywhere* has wide reaching benefits, since often times the install bugs are pervasive across all arches
<asac> ok. so for mobile images we can probably make this happen as soon as we get the iso tracker suppor then
<asac> *nod*
<JamieBennett> damn, sorry, had to go down the school to pick up a kids, accident but she's OK though.
 * JamieBennett reads backchat
<ogra> we have iso tracker support ...
<ogra> it just has a few bugs, but we use the tracker since karmic
<asac> JamieBennett: we almost didnt notice ;) ... read backlog what we did to your specs ;)
<asac> next is mobile-lucid-une-casper-speedup
<ogra> for which you just showed up in time :)
<JamieBennett> :D
<asac> JamieBennett: according to work items most is planned to be done by alpha-2 (with a good bunch for alpha-1)
<asac> is that still accurate?
<asac> the alpha-1 work itesm at least feel a bit at risk
<asac> (to me)
<JamieBennett> Yep, going to start on that when I finish packaging up netbook-launcher-efl today-ish
<ogra> and it assumes we make A1
<ogra> wrt images
<JamieBennett> ogra: indeed
<JamieBennett> I can profile karmic though with timestamps in the casper.log file
<ogra> thats a good start
<asac> ok . targetted the investigation part for alpha-2 ... commented that the actual speedup fixes obviously can take till final ;)
<JamieBennett> give us a good idea of where to start looking
<ogra> right, lucid wont change so much here so the karmic numbers should be helpful enough
<asac> next mobile-lucid-arm-application-choices: i think that most stuff is well targetted for alpha-2 as well
<ogra> modulo thumb2 improvements
<asac> i will fork out two more specs: a -webservices-mail-integration ... and -webservers-gdoc-integration
<asac> as those are bigger working blocks
<dyfet> there was a couple of questions deferred at UDS related to this...
<asac> right
<asac> music player
<asac> mail
<asac> openoffice
<asac> those three need work/exploration during the cycle
<asac> so lets move those out to separate specs imo.
<dyfet> Okay
<asac> dyfet: can you do a quick write up of the music player spec? e.g. what was discussed, what requirements found etc.?
<dyfet> You mean here or after?
<asac> anyway. back on topic. i think for the rest its safe to have it for alpha-2
<asac> dyfet: after ... but we should get most done by today ;)
<dyfet> I will attach it to the current wiki spec page as a separate notes item...
<asac> dyfet: lets sync on this after meeting
<asac> i noted in whiteboard that we lok into splitting specs up
<dyfet> ok
<asac> but targetted the generic choices one for alpha-2
<asac> ogra: mobile-lucid-arm-rootstock-gui ...
<ogra> target for FF
<ogra> same for the multiarch one
<asac> thats for alpha-3 (just so we dont squeeze everything i for alpha-2)
<asac> agree
<asac> unfortunately we have no FF milestone ... so alpha-3 is the best we can have there
<ogra> its not on the CD and will be developed in archive
<asac> right
<ogra> well, make it A3
<asac> done
<JamieBennett> asac: 2D launcher is waiting on MIR's being promoted and me packaging up netbook-launcher-efl and uploading to REVU (do that today). After that we need add it to the ARM seed and figure out how we are going to determine if 3D or 2D is needed.
<ogra> thanks :)
<asac> mobile-lucid-arm-softboot-loader -> i wondered whether this is really Medium priority
<asac> for me it feels unlikely that its going to get fixed in lucid timeframe
<ogra> it depends on the kernels
<asac> so while we should work hard to make it happen after lucid+1
<asac> we probably wont get to do it this cycle
<ogra> it will be implemented quickly once we have working kexec support
<ogra> we have several proof of concept implementations ... they are all blocked on kexec
<asac> ogra: right. i think we need at least work items for kexec then.
<asac> current spec just says "blocked"
<asac> not what can or will be done to unblock that
<asac> [ACTION]: NCommander to add work items on how to unblock softbootloader to spec
<MootBot> ACTION received: : NCommander to add work items on how to unblock softbootloader to spec
<ogra> we cant do much but wait for kernel team
<asac> ogra: well. we can at least file bugs, bug kernel team, escalate etc.
<ogra> or hope for upstreams (vendors) to have it fixed in their kernels
<asac> i am not sure if that has happened
<ogra> i think there are bugs since jaunty
<ericm> ogra, just file a bug so we can follow
<asac> ok targetting for alpha-3 so it comes back to our plate
<ogra> right
<ogra> in any case it needs vendor support anyway ...
<asac> mobile-lucid-lpia-future -> isnt that informational?
<ogra> and that sounds rather like lucid+1
<asac> ogra: thats what i thought. for me it feels really unlikely
<asac> that we will get that implemented for lucid
<ogra> well, it would be good to have our side ready asap
<asac> right. thats why we have an action now to ensure that we work on unblocking it at least
<asac> ok14:57 < asac> mobile-lucid-lpia-future -> isnt that informational?
<ogra> vendor support here means the vendors need to ship the HW with the softbootloader bits
<asac> StevenK: ^^
<ogra> and obviously the HW we'll work with in lucid will be already shipping
<asac> ok marked lpia spec as informational for now
<asac> mobile-lucid-lxde-goals -> alpha-3 ... dyfet?
<StevenK> asac: Hm. Yes, you're right
<ogra> isnt it implemented too ?
<dyfet> It is really an informational spec
<dyfet> There are 3 separate community maintained specs
<asac> StevenK: ok. done now. feel free to add more content about what was decided when you have time ;)
<asac> dyfet: ok.
<asac> ok i think we have to hurry abit ;)
<StevenK> asac: Yeah, I think that one can wait
<asac> specs done for this meeting
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Image Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
<asac> ogra: lucid images broken atm?
<StevenK> asac: They are
<asac> any update?
<StevenK> asac: imx51 fails due to SIGILL, and dove due to what looks to be brokenness
<ogra_> hmpf ...
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> bad thing is is that the seeds are broken too
<ogra_> so debugging is currently impossible
<GrueMaster> Well, that certainly explains why dove is broken.  :P
<asac> how are they broken?
<ogra_> and i cant reporduce it locally at all
<ogra_> asac, MIRs missing ... desktop team is working on it
<ogra_> but it will take its time, which delays us
<asac> hmm
<asac> is there any way for us to workaround broken seeds to get initial images?
<ogra_> no
<ogra_> the seed will be fixed today by the looks of it
<ogra_> i know pitti and cjwatson discussed promotion of the missing stuff already
<ogra_> as soon as thats ok we can go on debugging the SIGILL
<ogra_> i'm in contact with lamont on that since today
<dmart> ogra_: do you know where the SIGILL was?
<ogra_> the prob here is that the buildd runs UNR jaunty
<StevenK> mksquashfs
<ogra_> what StevenK says
<ogra_> though it might be an inconsistency between kernel and userspace
<dmart> OK
<asac> ok safe to assume that desktop team will fix the seeds or do we need an action to ensure things get fixed etc?
<ogra_> as i said, jaunty pegatron UNR kernel
<ogra_> no, we dont need any action for that
<asac> ok.
<asac> anything else on arm image status?
<asac> [TOPIC] ARM Kernel status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Kernel status
<ogra_> not yet
<asac> cooloney: ericm: your turn :)
<ogra_> A1 will still be redboot based for imx51 obviously :)
<cooloney> asac: thanks, for lucid imx51 kernel
<cooloney> i am waiting for the fsl drop
<ericm> asac, same here for dove
<asac> ok. any timeline for that?
<cooloney> as soon as i get it, i will setup a seperate tree for that
<cooloney> i think i will get fsl drop on Dec 4th
<asac> ericm: when will mrvl drop the kernel?
<ericm> asac, not yet known
<asac> ok. but we can continue with what had for karmic, right?
<ericm> asac, right
<asac> what is the story about not getting thumb kernel ?
<davidm> We need to ask Marvell on the next call when we can expect a drop
<ericm> davidm, better if I can be invited
<ericm> asac, thumb2 needs .32
<ericm> asac, which means we need to backport to .31 as vendor provides only .32
<ericm> .31 sorry
<cooloney> davidm: could you please forward the meeting minutes of the meeting with fsl
<asac> ericm: are you on marvell call?
<ericm> asac, not yet
<cooloney> davidm: sorry i can't join the meeting, since it's 3am-4am here
<ogra_> ericm, as i understood MVL will be on .32
<ogra_> ericm, only FSL will stay on .31
<dmart> Thumb-2 kernel is nice to have, but if we don't get it for imx51 it's not the end of the world.
<davidm> cooloney, understood
<cooloney> ogra_: yeah, mvl will be .32
<asac> [ACTION] davidm and asac to clarify marvell kernel drop date
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm and asac to clarify marvell kernel drop date
<cooloney> davidm: thanks a lot, so for the fsl patch drop, will they send out to me directly or you will forward them to me?
<ericm> ogra_, cooloney, ok so will wait for their next drop
<asac> ericm: ok. thanks for explaining thumb2
<ericm> asac, well - maybe I can check thumb2 on dove if mvl is delivering .32
<cooloney> asac: yeah, so mvl kernel will be thumb2, fsl kernel will be .31 not for thumb2 until fsl upgrades kernel to .32
<asac> right. thanks for summary
<asac> anything else on kernel status (we are overtime)
<ericm> nothing from my side
<ogra_> SATA patch  ?
<cooloney> me either
<ogra_> on imx51
<asac> given that we are well overtime (due to extensive spec review) ... i would suggest to skip the sponsoring review this week
<asac> any objection?
<ogra_> nope
<asac> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<cooloney> ogra_:  for that patch, i just posted to kernel mail list for sru
<ogra_> there was some discussion about the SATA fix for imx51
<davidm> cooloney, I'll give them your contact info.
<ogra_> right, i care more about lucid than karmic atm
<GrueMaster> mobile-lucid-arm-lib-tests may need to be revisited.  Will know more next meeting.
<asac> GrueMaster: revisited in what way?
<ogra_> we should have the SATA patch in lucid asap so it gets testing
<cooloney> ogra_: but we think the change will effect other usb storage device connected to ehci port
<GrueMaster> I'll explain off line.
<asac> ok
<ogra_> davidm, there is a spec action item for you on one of my specs btw :)
<cooloney> davidm: thanks
 * GrueMaster is also interested in sata fix for imx51.
<ogra_> [davidm] ship SSD media for tesing to team members (2 days): TODO
<ogra_> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-per-soc-powermanagement
<GrueMaster> It should be an SRU to karmic as well.
<asac> powermanagement that is
<davidm> ogra_, will take more then 2 days
<ogra_> cooloney, right, but as soon as you have a proper fix it should get added to lucid first
<ericm> davidm, possible for me to join the marvell call?
<cooloney> ogra_: GrueMaster, yeah i posted the sata fix patch as karmic SRU already
<ogra_> davidm, minus shipment :)
<davidm> ericm, sure
<ogra_> cooloney, it should enter lucid first
<ogra_> and get testing there
<cooloney> ogra_: ok, got you
<asac> [ACTION] davidm to invite ericm to marvell call
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to invite ericm to marvell call
<davidm> will take more then two days to order have to figure out what SSD and get a PO cut
<ogra_> if its good in lucid make it an SRU
<asac> ;)
<cooloney> ogra_: ok, no problem
<davidm> ericm, you have been invited
<ogra_> given that we want to focus on SDD that SATA patch is essential for some of the spec work
<ogra_> *SSD
<asac> davidm: how much time should we book for that? a week?
<ericm> davidm, thanks
<cooloney> ogra_: as soon as i got the drop and setup the kernel tree
<davidm> asac, at least
<davidm> likely two
<asac> ok thanks ... updating whiteboard
<asac> ok since we are quite over time ... lets do other stuff offline
<ogra_> ++
<asac> ok thanks all!
<asac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:21.
<ogra_> thanks for running the meeting :)
<asac> hehe
<asac> now i need to understand how to get anything out of mootbot ;)
<asac> MootBot: help
<ogra_> you should have a PM
<asac> oh ... indeed :-P
<ogra_> :)
<davidm> asac, the minutes will be posted you should have a window that tells you where
<asac> yeah. i got a link ... but todays minutes are not there yet
<asac> probably takes a bit
<asac> thanks
 * ericm has to get some sleep as it's late here
<davidm> asac, yes takes some time, have a look to see if last weeks meeting mintues are up yet
<asac> ok i think there it is
<cjwatson> mdz,kees: do you remember who's chairing this week?
<mdz> cjwatson: I missed the previous meeting, so I don't know
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-November/000642.html says Kees
<ScottK> I'd like to ask that https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy be early in the meeting as I have another committment I need to get to.
<cjwatson> the agenda does not seem to have been updated
<ScottK> No, that's different than the one for last meeting.
<cjwatson> I made a minor edit just now
<ScottK> I think it's just that there are a lot of carryover topics
<cjwatson> and there were some additions - but lots of those carryovers were dealt with
<ScottK> Oh
<mdz> I updated the agenda a few days ago
<mdz> to add the maintainer script item
<mdz> do we have a quorum? Keybuk doesn't seem to be online, pitti is idle
<cjwatson> I've reorganised it slightly to remove dead items and move kubuntu to the top
<cjwatson> kees and sabdfl both idle apparently - no quorum if it's just you and me
<tseliot> are you going to process recommendations from the Motu council in this meeting?
<sabdfl> hello all
<mdz> tseliot: if it's for upload rights, that's done by the DMB now
<cjwatson> tseliot: that will be for the DMB next week, I believe
<cjwatson> sabdfl: hi, just you, me, and mdz so far
<tseliot> ah, ok, thanks
<mdz> cjwatson: that's quorum
<mdz> might as well start
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:09. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=show
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=show
<mdz> cjwatson: there were a bunch of actions re: archive reorg
<mdz>    * [ACTION]: Martin to talk to Jonathan about making DMB an admin of kubuntu-dev (done now), and to announce new members to devel-permissions@
<mdz> and kubuntu team list
<mdz>    * [ACTION] Martin to talk to Mario about adding DMB as admin of ~mythbuntu-dev and add wiki page about new member procedure
<mdz>    * [ACTION] Colin to document edit_acl invocation for setting team upload delegation
<mdz>    * [ACTION] Colin to implement delegations for these three teams after above fixes
<mdz> cjwatson: any updates on those?
<cjwatson> the team change to kubuntu-dev was done, but not mythbuntu-dev
<cjwatson> we're still blocked on an RT ticket to add devel-permissions - I'll go nag IS about that
<mdz> the third was ubuntu-desktop, which is  done, right?
<cjwatson> delegations are implemented but not yet the documentation
<mdz> what's the RT#?
 * bdale is here, fwiw
<cjwatson> mdz: 36139
<mdz> bdale: hey
<cjwatson> (I've poked #is)
<mdz> cjwatson: thanks
<mdz>   * [ACTION] Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language
<mdz> the draft is
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<cjwatson> I haven't seen that redraft
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<mdz> and hasn't been touched since 2009-09-27
<mdz> so I guess that action is still outstanding
<mdz>   * [ACTION] Colin to clarify trademark/license distinction on licensing policy
<cjwatson> still outstanding, sorry
<mdz> [ACTION] Martin to announce DMB meeting next week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Martin to announce DMB meeting next week
<mdz> he did that
<cjwatson> done and furthermore moot now :)
<mdz> ok, on to the main agenda
<mdz> [topic] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
<cjwatson> there's one more team that would like to get on the path to delegation, but regrettably I have forgotten which
<cjwatson> I think it was Xubuntu
<cjwatson> we gave Cody the necessary information to get started
<cjwatson> other than that I have no updates
<sabdfl> is there a canonical list of the teams / packagesets anywhere?
<mdz> is there a wiki page on how to get set up?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: in LP, yes
<cjwatson> launchpad.packagesets
<cjwatson> mdz: examples but nothing guidebook-like; I can take an action (argh ...) to write something up
<sabdfl> cvd!
<sabdfl> oww
<mdz> ...
<cjwatson> qwp!
<sabdfl> that's what she said
<pitti> o/
<pitti> sorry
<mdz> cjwatson: I don't think it's essential, but it would be good to be building up a doc as we go so that other teams can follow
<mdz> anyway, moving on
<cjwatson> pitti: hi. did you talk to Mario about adding DMB as admin of ~mythbuntu-dev and adding a wiki page?
<mdz> (or not, I'll wait)
<cjwatson> mdz: might as well ACTION me even if it doesn't happen right noow
<cjwatson> -o
<pitti> I sent a mail, but didn't see a response yet
<sabdfl> can we not just do that ourselves?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: you might be able to, we can't :)
<sabdfl> or, by policy, should we wait for him to do it?
<pitti> I'll poke him again then
<sabdfl> i can, just not sure it's protocol to use lp.Admin
<mdz> [action] cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg
<cjwatson> LP admins generally seem to prefer not to
<cjwatson> (from my observation anyway; it does seem to be skating along the edge)
<sabdfl> in this case, i've technically got project authority too
<mdz> I would prefer that a team admin do it
<sabdfl> agreed
<pitti> also, creating a policy wiki page is the main bit here, which the mythbuntu devs should decide themselves?
<cjwatson> we need superm1 to document the process for mythbuntu anyway
<mdz> sabdfl: for mythbuntu?
<sabdfl> for *buntu
<mdz> ...
<mdz> cjwatson: anything else on archive reorg, or can we move on? lots to cover
<cjwatson> move on
<mdz> [topic] Units Policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Units Policy
<mdz> we covered this above; it is waiting for Scott to redraft
<mdz> though the agenda says "finish voting"?
<cjwatson> can we do the Kubuntu stuff as ScottK requested? he has a time constraint
<cjwatson> the agenda no longer says that, I edited it
<mdz> ok
<cjwatson> reload and you'll get updated ordering too :)
<mdz> [topic] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<cjwatson> I've read this just now, and in general it's a request to bring our KDE practices more into line with how we handle GNOME post-release
<mdz> ScottK: which packages are covered by this proposal?
<pitti> (note: we don't regularly update the entire gnome stack to new versions, just selected packages)
<ScottK> mdz: It's the KDE core packages.
<ScottK> The ones that come in a KDE 4.x.y release.
<cjwatson> ScottK: we probably ought to have a standard practice for what to do when (IME "when", not "if") regressions are detected after packages are moved to -updates
<mdz> ScottK: it would be handy to have a list, since my next question is whether or not there are reverse deps outside of KDE itself
<cjwatson> there certainly will be reverse-deps
<cjwatson> any KDE application will depend on the core bits
<ScottK> mdz: The only one I know of that affects Ubuntu is kdebindings
<ScottK> It has ubuquity as a reverse depends
<cjwatson> mdz: do you mean "outside KDE" or "outside Kubuntu"?
<mdz> I agree with cjwatson that a contingency plan would be wise
<ScottK> (That's the only KDE core package that is in both the Ubuntu Desktop and Kubuntu package sets)
<bdale> cjwatson: I assume he means outside of the set of packages they're already proposing to update
<mdz> cjwatson: I meant outside of the set of packages in question
<mdz> which, since it's only the core bits and not applications, there are definitely plenty
<czajkowski> .c
<mdz> bdale: bingo
<cjwatson> so in that case the set of packages is certainly large, just as updating e.g. gnome-vfs has a bunch of reverse-deps
<ScottK> This is true.
<ScottK> The broadest impact is from kde4libs.
<ScottK> Upstream promises binary compatibility for that.
<cjwatson> I suppose the real question though is whether KDE nowadays meets the same kind of standards that we apply to GNOME post-release updates
<sabdfl> that's the piece that's missing for me
<sabdfl> some statement from KDE upstream about the approach they are taking to point releases
<mdz> ScottK: in the rationale section, when considering the arguments against doing updates, the most critical argument in my opinion is that there is an unknown risk of regression
<pitti> we actually only had an exception for LTSes for gnome point releases
<mdz> I would like to see that addressed in the proposal
<sabdfl> if we can get a commitment from KDE that their stable branch maintenance policy is broadly in line with our SRU policy, then point releases -> updates makes sense
<ScottK> mdz: OK.
<pitti> and we did have regressions in KDE point releases in the past, too
<bdale> mdz: they talk a lot about testing for regressions, but it's not clear how broad that testing could/would be, right?
<mdz> ScottK: anything you're doing to mitigate that risk is relevant information for considering this change
<pitti> (which is why I'm always a bit scared of such blanket policies)
<ScottK> Yes, and we have still seen a few.
<ScottK> This is why we proposed the ppa -> proposed -> updates path to give time for testing.
<sabdfl> that's reasonable, yes
<sabdfl> it wouls just be helpful if there was a real policy upstream about commits to the stable branches
<mdz> bdale: yes, I think this is to some extent addressed elsewhere in the doc, but it seems like an omission in the rationale
<cjwatson> does somebody have a link to GNOME's documented stable update handling?
<mdz> if the rationale is that there is no reason NOT to do it, then it needs to cover more ground
<ScottK> sabdfl: I can ask them for a clear statement of policy.
<sabdfl> we should look to make a mutual commitment with upstream: if they adopt a firm SRU-compatible policy for point releases, we'll SRU them
<mdz> the meat of the rationale seems to be that users expect it
<sabdfl> that way it's worth their while to do the work, because they know it will have maximum impact
<mdz> which may be because we've done it in the past ;-)
<sabdfl> the only users who would clamour for it are developer users, who *know* about the point release
<sabdfl> endusers won't know about them
<ScottK> In addition to testing, we're also monitoring KDE svn so that if others find regressions and fix them we are aware of it.
<bdale> ScottK: sure, that's expected
<ScottK> It seems clear I have some homework to do.
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I have an ongoing campaign about this not being a binary state :) in between we have e.g. users who try multiple distributions and notice discrepancies
<sabdfl> i'm sure KDE will be amenable to a clear policy, since they have regular releases which reduce the temptation to backport "cool new stuff" to a stable release
<bdale> sabdfl: don't sell endusers short, it depends a lot on how upstream communicates point releases as to how many people know about them and want them... as a non-KDE-user, I don't know in this case
<sabdfl> cjwatson: noted
<sabdfl> my point is that we should assume that most users want *stability*
<ScottK> sabdfl: There is a 4.3.4 release today and we've already gotten ping'ed in #kubuntu-devel asking where to find the update from someone who AFAIK is not involved in development.
<bdale> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> if a point release can't be certain to be increasing that, then the only people who would clamour for it are people for whom that particular upstream is very interesting
<sabdfl> if we get a mutual understanding in place with upstream w.r.t. stable branch maintenance, it's win-win
<sabdfl> so ScottK, let's see if that's achievable
<ScottK> sabdfl: I'm reasonably certain that KDE's policy for updates is reasonably well aligned to what you're asking for.  I don't know that it's clearly documented.
<sabdfl> ok
<ScottK> Are there more questions or additional homework items for me?
<mdz> ok, so what's the next step?
<mdz> where should we pick this up in 2 weeks?
<ScottK> I think I've got a list of things for Kubuntu to work on among ourselves and with upstream.
<mdz> ScottK: [action] ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here ?
<ScottK> How about if we leave it open since I don't know how long it'll take with upstream.
<ScottK> Yes.  That's good.
<mdz> [action] ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here
<mdz> ScottK: thank you
<mdz> move on?
<ScottK> Thank you for your time.
<mdz> [topic] When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (mdz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (mdz)
<mdz> this came up in discussion at UDS and there has been some ongoing chatter about it
<mdz> I thought it would be useful to put it to the TB and see what folks think
<pitti> hm, it should ideally only happen in preinst, and on very exceptional circumstances, such as pending data loss
<mdz> the particular case which started the discussion was where maintainer scripts can fail due to transient error conditions, or other problems beyond the scope of the package
<mdz> e.g. a daemon package's postinst failing because the daemon couldn't start
<mdz> perhaps the admin made a typo in the configuration file, or something else was listening on the port, etc.
<mdz> some packages fail in this case, others don't
<cjwatson> the usual case that gives me difficulty is how to encapsulate things where other packages that depend upon that package will themselves fail if the depended-upon package is broken
<mdz> YokoZar brought up a case in procps, where it was failing because there was some garbage in /etc/sysctl.d
<cjwatson> personally I would avoid depending on something and assuming that its daemon is running, but that seems a possibility in the more complicated corners of the system
<cjwatson> I would make a general recommendation for dependencies to be as weak as possible, in those terms, but how much my recommendation is worth I'm not sure :)
<mdz> in cases like that one, I don't see the value in failing the maintainer script and forcing the user to clean it up
<cjwatson> I suppose the question is what "successfully configured" means
<cjwatson> and what other packages are expecting from it
<mdz> searching google for "policy manual" returns the Debian policy manual as the second hit for me
<bdale> ;-)
<cjwatson> if, say, perl is unable to load its core modules, then everything depending on it is going to be pretty unhappy anyway
<cjwatson> this case is deliberately exaggerated but we clearly need a case where failing *is* reasonable in order to draw the bounds
<mdz> yes
<mdz> but if, say, scrollkeeper fails to register the package's documentation, not so much
<bdale> one assumes this is primarily an issue on upgrades?
<mdz> some folks have made an argument that it's better to have these problems made evident so that they are diagnosed and fixed
<pitti> another valid (IMHO) example is a new DB server which detects that you have a previous-version database which can't be automigrated
<pitti> then the preinst should fail with a message
<mdz> but I would argue that failing the upgrade or installation is not the best way to achieve that
<cjwatson> it does kind of bother me that we are designing a system that assumes success and hides failures
<mdz> pitti: I agree, there are definitely cases where it is valid in preinst
<mdz> that is much easier to recover from
<pitti> arguably we need to make our upgrading tools more robust for these cases as well, but in general we have too many failed packages
<pitti> upgrading tools> if one package in your 5.000 fails to upgrade, you basically loose; no way to bring up update-manager any more to clean up/finish the upgrade
<pitti> and in a lot of cases you even fail to boot because the initramfs wasn't rebuilt, etc.
<mdz> browsing https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=apport-package is very educational
<ibuclaw> cjwatson, we wouldn't be the first or last people to do so though ... Windows 7 hides segmentation faults now apparently ;)
<cjwatson> I don't have a clear idea on how to set policy on this; I definitely think there are many cases where adding || true is appropriate, but I don't see a way to mandate anything
<mdz> it should be possible to formulate a rule of thumb, I would tihnk
<mdz> think
<bdale> pitti: a package whose installation failing causes a system to be unbootable sounds like a grave problem, to me.  does that really happen?
<mdz> e.g. failing postinst is only advisable if packages depending on this one will also fail to be configured
<cjwatson> I'm looking for a definition of what it means to be "configured" in the dpkg sense, and have been unable to find one
<cjwatson> I mean, obviously I know the technical steps involved
<mdz> cjwatson: me either
<pitti> bdale: yes, because it usually leaves a large trail of unconfigured packages behind
<cjwatson> but I want a definition of desired states
<pitti> bdale: I heared that more than once from acquaintances, that cost me a lot of phone support..
<mvo_> I think its good that this is discussed, I think failure of (re)starting a daemon should not be a postinst fail (at least in release upgrades)
<mdz> mvo_: oh hi, thanks for speaking up
<cjwatson> configured ought to be sufficient for depending-upon packages to work. It ought to be such that you don't need to move lots of files around to make the package work. It ought to be such that the system is in a checkpointed state where it basically still works. Um ...
<mdz> mvo_: you probably get more than your share of these bug reports ;-)
<ibuclaw> cjwatson, is this the page you are currently at? http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html
<mvo_> it might be worthwhile to differentiate between normal and release upgrades, the later tend to more troublesome if a script bails out
<ibuclaw> or were at
<mvo_> mdz: I do
<mdz> bdale: if the failure causes dpkg/apt to not attempt to configure the dependent packages, even if it would have worked, that's a net loss
<mvo_> mdz: more than I want :)
<bdale> mdz: indeed
<cjwatson> in the specific case of a daemon I think I generally agree that it is not worth failing postinsts; but I'm hesitant to lay down the law on that because there are a lot of weird cases out there
<mdz> I think the answer could very well be different in development vs. post-release
<mdz> e.g. --force-overwrite
 * mvo_ nods
<cjwatson> ibuclaw: yes, but it does not answer the question I posed; it specifies the technical steps involved in configuring a package, which I know, but it does not specify the, er, philosophical state of being configured
<bdale> we've certainly always tolerated levels of breakage in Debian unstable that would not be considered acceptable in stable
<mdz> to try to wrap up this agenda item, I wanted to get input on whether this is something the TB should consider in depth and make a recommendation about
<cjwatson> does anyone here have expertise in weird daemons that really do need to be started in order to configure dependent packages?
<bdale> mdz: my take is that it's a really intersting question, but something that shouldn't be handled hastily
<cjwatson> maybe we can just consider those bugs since they generally won't work inside chroots and the like
<bdale> mdz: and this is the first TB agenda item for which I think some explicit coordination with the Debian TC would be interesting to pursue
<mdz> bdale: so if we assume that any TB recommendation would not be made hastily, is it something we should devote some attention to? ;-)
<mdz> bdale: aha!
<pitti> cjwatson: policykit was such a daemon
<ibuclaw> cjwatson, don't you dpkg-divert --rename initctl and ln -s true initctl in chroot's to disable services from restarting anyway?
<pitti> cjwatson: without it running you couldn't configure hal, since that requires setting up a PK privilege which hal needs
<cjwatson> ibuclaw: typically, yes, which is what I'm referring to
<pitti> PK isn't started from postinst, but it's the same principle
<cjwatson> in "maybe we can just consider those bugs"
<cjwatson> pitti: was that considered a bug?
<mdz> let's try to wrap this up
<mdz> should we take some action or no?
<mdz> options:
<mdz> - open a dialogue with the Debian TC
<mdz> - somebody go off and give it a good long think and come up with a proposal
<mdz> - start a discussion thread on a mailing list
<mdz> - announce a webinar
<bdale> any discussion with the Debian TC will proceed better if it starts with a straw-man proposal
<mdz> ...kidding
<bdale> as the TC is not in the habit of initiating policy from whole cloth
<mdz> ok, I'm not hearing any strong views so I'll just leave it alone for the moment, we can revisit at the next meeting if we have time
<mdz> [topic] Ubuntu Licensing Policy (raised by Ken Wimer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Licensing Policy (raised by Ken Wimer)
<mdz> this already has an action for colin on the agenda
<mdz> anything to discuss?
<cjwatson> nothing else as far as I'm aware; we discussed it last time
<mdz> [topic] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<mdz> kees is not here, perhaps we should hold off until he's back?
<mdz> meanwhile, folks can review the document
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
<cjwatson> we discussed much of this last time, but without kees, I think we should postpone
 * mdz pokes MootBot
<mdz> ok
<cjwatson> there were some thorny issues
<mdz> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<mdz> we have some bugs!
<mdz> [topic] bug 485569: TB term length is unclear
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug 485569: TB term length is unclear
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485569 in ubuntu-community "TB term length is unclear" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485569
<mdz> LP and www.ubuntu.com disagree about the length of a term on the TB
<mdz> er, LP and wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdz> www.ubuntu.com has nothing to say about it, but probably should
<mdz> is it one year or two?
<cjwatson> I must say I always thought it was two
<sabdfl> i think we tried to stagger it at one stage
<mdz> I thought so as well, I vaguely recall the rationale being that made it possible to have annual elections with staggered terms
<sabdfl> so some were appointed for one, some for two
<sabdfl> but the meme elsewhere is to go with two and reappoint the whole group at a time
<sabdfl> which is pretty much where we are now
<sabdfl> modulo cjwatson, iirc
<mdz> sabdfl: so what should we do to clarify it?
<bdale> I note in passing that I'm not listed at https://edge.launchpad.net/~techboard/+members
<mdz> bdale: IIRC you agreed only to sit in and see what was involved, to help us define a role for a debian representative if one made sense
<sabdfl> hmm, tb at present has an initial period (730 days) and renewal period (365 days)
<bdale> mdz: true
<sabdfl> i can change the renewal period to 730 days, if that helps
<sabdfl> and can add bdale at the same time if that would best reflect his representing debian here
<mdz> sabdfl: I think that would be premature
<mdz> at some point (and we should have set a timeline for this originally, my oversight) we should put a discussion topic on the agenda about this
<sabdfl> it probably grants super cow powers all over the place
<mdz> bdale agreed to participate in the meetings for a while and see what we do
<bdale> mdz/sabdfl: mdz makes a good point, we should probably have a discussion offline about how this should work now that I've lurked for a while
<mdz> so that we could talk about what a debian representative role would entail
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> but to come back to the term issue...I'm assuming that this is a sabdfl decision since there's noplace else to appeal to
<bdale> the OSI folks, for example, have an explicit 'observer' role that is non-voting but fully participatory otherwise, could be worth considering something intermediate like that
<sabdfl> but the renewal period to 730 would at least remove some confusion (it's not really relevant, we don't allow self-renewal anyhow)
<mdz> so...
<sabdfl> i prefer giving folks a real say if they're invited to the party
<sabdfl> advisory boards are less interesting than real boards :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: [action] sabdfl to update LP/wiki/www to reflect the actual term length for TB ?
<sabdfl> done
<sabdfl> well, LP
<mdz> whatever you decide is fine with me
<mdz> either 1 or 2 or some combination
<sabdfl> where's the relevant wiki page? i also don't know how to edit the website (blush)
<mdz> sabdfl: it's in the bug
<cjwatson> I'll shove it in the website now
<mdz> I've assigned the bug for tracking
<cjwatson> just say "two years"?
<mdz> we're out of time, but there are two more
<pitti> so people could be elected in phases (as they already are), to avoid replacing the entire board at a time
<sabdfl> cjwatson: +1
<pitti> that should work well with a consistent 2 years period, too
<mdz> bug 485971 is waiting for an RT ticket to be processed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485971 in ubuntu-community "Technical Board mailing list archive is private" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485971
<mdz> cjwatson: could you nudge it in the next IS meeting?
<cjwatson> ok
<mdz> [action] cjwatson to nudge RT 35428
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to nudge RT 35428
<mdz> bug 485559
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485559 in ubuntu-community "Mark Shuttleworth has no expiration date set in the tech-board LP team" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485559
<cjwatson> I have given it a non-zero priority so that it stops vanishing
<mdz> sabdfl was re-elected to TB but didn't have an expiry set; this fits into the term discussion as well
<mdz> sabdfl: should you expire like everybody else or are you special in that regard?
 * bdale chuckles
<sabdfl> i certainly hope to be
<sabdfl> but... mortality beckons
<mdz> har
<cjwatson> expires: sometime after upload
<sabdfl> i'm happy to expire from this team like everyone else if you request that
<sabdfl> i've also clarified that a vote of Ubuntu developers means a vote of anyone who can upload to the archive, main or universe, or subsets, or even individual packages
<cjwatson> yes, that is how we have implemented things to date
<cjwatson> which reminds me though, we need to add delegated teams to ubuntu-dev; I'll do that now
<mdz> sabdfl: it's not up to me, this was just flagged in one of our governance reviews as an inconsistency
<sabdfl> hmm... ubuntu-dev might be used for main/universe upload
<mdz> the foundation documents don't specify
<cjwatson> it is not
<sabdfl> ok
<cjwatson> we verified that when we started doing per-package uploaders, and adding them to ubuntu-dev
<cjwatson> (universe/multiverse upload => motu; motu is a member of ubuntu-dev)
<sabdfl> mdz: personally, i'd prefer to be on the TB ex officio as long as i'm bdfl
<mdz> sabdfl: whatever you decide, I think the official www docs should explain it
<sabdfl> if that makes folks uncomfortable, i don't mind dropping off it, but you and others have said it helps
<sabdfl> to build links to other parts of the project
<mdz> so that we're self-consistent with our governance policies
<bdale> I'd write it in as a special case, personally
<sabdfl> ok. i don't mind having the same status as the debian representative ;-)
<pitti> not having the DFL on the technical board sounds kind of strange to me, FWIW
<mdz> we're over time, can we wrap up?
<mdz> we can pick this up next time
 * bdale ^5's sabdfl
<mdz> [topic] select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  select a chair for the next meeting
<sabdfl> backatcha :-)
<mdz> who's up?
<mdz> 3...
<mdz> 2...
<mdz> 1...
<sabdfl> wasn't this week due to be kees?
<pitti> kees again?
<mdz> kees it is
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:09.
<mdz> kees: as penalty for skipping your turn chairing, please help me with the TeamReport, as I have back-to-back meetings after this ;-)
<pitti> thanks all, and sorry for being late
<kees> mdz: ah, sorry, on holiday this week.  I will review the scrollback.
<bjf> Roll Call
 * smb is here
 * ogasawara waves
 * amitk is here
 * apw hides behind smb
 * pgraner waves 0/
 * rtg is here
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
<ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<ogasawara> Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (12 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
<ogasawara> * Release Targeted Bugs (54 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<ogasawara>  * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> any comments/questions?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
<ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
<ogasawara> ..
<pgraner> apw: do think we can keep up with the Milestoned and Release bugs this cycle?
<apw> as in get them fixed, or keep track of them
<pgraner> apw: that is track and fix them at a faster rate then last time?
<pgraner> apw: both
<apw> well we are tracking them better already
<pgraner> apw: if not fix keep the bugs fresh with status
<apw> we will cirtainly be trying to keep them more under control
<apw> we may need to pull people in to attack them
<rtg> ogasawara, the milestoned features page does not appear to have any kernel work
<pgraner> apw: the big complaint last cycle was we had lots of bugs like that but we never touched them
<ogasawara> rtg: nope, not at the moment
<pgraner> apw: or at least often if we were waiting on upstream
<apw> pgraner, i ma keeping track of all lucid specific bugs under a new tag
<pgraner> apw: name?
<apw> kernel-lucid, so at least we have better visibility of the incoming
<pgraner> apw: ack
<ogasawara> apw: I can give stats on that in this meeting going fwd
 * pgraner says OVER
<apw> ogasawara, ack
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
<apw> that is just waitng on publication of the decision
<apw> that is expected to occur by the end of the week so we should be able to remove next week
<apw> ..
<bjf> does it need an [ACTION]?
<apw> i have actions in the release page already
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
<ogasawara> Finished drafting spec.  Should be ready for Review and then Approval.
<ogasawara> as noted above, apw's already started in on some of the work items like tagging by release
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
<smb> documentation done. just waits on publication (done in one, no action needed)
<smb> ..
<apw> we plan a combined annoucenment update email at the end of the week
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
<apw> we have dropped a bunch of old cruft patches.  we are moving on onto the 'review items' now
<apw> next is pulling up drivers ... starting with AA
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
<apw> that is nearly complete, again announcement is pending
<apw> there is a the config checker outstanding there
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<sconklin> The web pages are up to date - discussion is ongoing about how to include nouveau
<apw> the review of nouveau is pretty hideous, likely a backports module apprach will be needed
<sconklin> apw suggested as a backports module, and I think that's brilliant
<amitk> will that mean its own drm stack?
<sconklin> nouveau requires that all of drm-next be brought in
<pgraner> amitk: yep
 * amitk remembers the mess with poulsbo
 * apw cries
 * pgraner hands apw a crying towel
<amitk> headers need to be fixed (if the lbm package is installed)
<bjf> sconklin, is that all?
<sconklin> My comfort level re: nouveau is very low
<sconklin> yeah
<sconklin> ...
<rtg> amitk, do we really need to support 3rd party builds?
<amitk> rtg: dunno. Don't we?
<apw> seems like a stretch goal to me
<rtg> for LBM modules? I don't think so
<amitk> is this going to be 'supported'?
<amitk> or an experimental feature
<rtg> LBM y its nature is only best effort
<rtg> by*
<apw> and they will have -nv to fall back on
<apw> and the binary drivers
<amitk> I guess its ok then, if that is communicated in advance
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<bjf> manjo is out today
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
<jjohansen> next posting should go out thursday
<jjohansen> ec2 and thankgiving ate my cycles last week
<apw> we have a plan for pulling in the current version to lucid as soon as its ready to post
<jjohansen> right
<bjf> ??
<apw> bjf?
<jjohansen> just agreeing with apw
<bjf> jjohansen, is that all
<jjohansen> yes
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
 * apw lets csurbhi talk ...
<csurbhi> doing tests to see if populate_rootfs can be executed in parallel
<csurbhi> and if we get any speedup by doing the same
<csurbhi> had a good result today
<rtg> csurbhi, how much time did it save?
<csurbhi> shall do this for lucid kernel by tonight and post a patch and a boot image
<csurbhi> i dont have the exact number for lucid yet
<csurbhi> i did it on a vanilla 2.6.31 kernel to see if any time can be saved
<rtg> a ballpark would suffice :)
<csurbhi> creating a .deb package for lucid rt now
<apw> the times on the test were vastly different, the pictures implied we might get as much as 40% saving for lucid
<csurbhi> i think around 2 sec
<rtg> well, thats significant
<csurbhi> but definitely less than that
<csurbhi> around 1+ sec
<csurbhi> actually
<apw> the test kerenl were booting in approx 2x the time of lucid
<apw> jjohansen, where are we with the apparmour out of
<bjf> csurbhi, is that all?
<apw> initramfs stuff?  as i assume that'll save us a bit of unpack time
<jjohansen> I started looking at upstartifying the init script but not very far
<apw> ok ...
<apw> ..
<csurbhi> yes
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
<bjf> I've started working today on my Audio crack of the day build work. I'm starting with the work rtg did for karmic-lbm
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
<amitk> Been doing some baseline idle power measurements on my laptop
<amitk> waiting on reference HW from pgraner
<apw> what we going to use as reference here?
<amitk> next steps is to define the set of usecases we care about for measurements
<amitk> Dell Mini 10V was suggested - with and w/o SSD
<apw> works for me
<amitk> other tasks have been defined at
<amitk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidTasks
<apw> have you seen keybuk's automated tests for boot speed?
<apw> i wonder if we could produce power numbers in a similar way / get him to in the same builds
<amitk> i chatted with him at UDS about it. I will ping him for the scripts
<apw> might be nice to double up on his h/w there, get automatic readings from him
<amitk> yes, makes sense
<amitk> bjf: action me
<bjf> [ACTION] amitk to get with keybuk on automated tests
<MootBot> ACTION received:  amitk to get with keybuk on automated tests
<amitk> that is all for now
<bjf> amitk, is that all? (..)
<apw> that looks like a nose
<amitk> heh
<bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> updated to latest patchset, apw packaged it into a ppa, everything tested out
<jjohansen> so apw is going to roll out to the archive
<bjf> '..' indicates that you are done
<jjohansen> I still have to do some config updates to get EC2 closer to the virtual kernel configs but we are closer than we were in Karmic
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> :-)
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
<apw> yep its pleasing to have them so early in the cyle (-ec2)
<apw> lucid we are mostly waiting on 2.6.32.  otherwise a few security items coming
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> Short status this time: No current change. Security update nearby. Karmic SRU update follows closely.
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Current regression stats:
<ogasawara>  * regression-potential bugs: 9 (down 30) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<ogasawara>  * regression-release bugs: 87 (up 34)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release
<ogasawara>  * regression-update bugs: 14 (up 2)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update
<ogasawara>  * regression-proposed: 1 (down 1) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed
<ogasawara> Note that the majority of regression-potential bugs have now become regression-release bugs which accounts for the larger delta this week
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Next bug day will be Tues Dec 8.  I'll send email later this week.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> ogasawara, on the incoming bugs ...
<apw> would it be better to split by series there
<apw> as the meaning of potential etc changes over time
<apw> (incoming regressions)
<ogasawara> apw: should be easy to do since we're tagging by release
<bjf> [ACTION] bjf to review lucid tasks to see if anything needs to be added to the meeting agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf to review lucid tasks to see if anything needs to be added to the meeting agenda
<bjf> anything else?
<apw> bjf we might be able to generate the tasks bits from the status page generator
<bjf> apw, ok
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:32.
<apw> thx
<smb> thxbye
<amitk> kthxbye
<czam> buenas tarde, este es el canal de la reunion para ubuntu member?
<MenZa> czam: I'm not very proficient in Spanish, but assuming you're asking about the EMEA Membership meeting, that's in ~40 minutes from now.
<MenZa> czam: And yes, this is where you want to be :)
<czam> MenZa ok, thanks ;)
<BlackZ> hi all :D
<Ioneye> Hi BlackZ
<czam> Hi everyone :D
<frandieguez> EMEA in 10 minutes, isn't it?
<forumsmatthew> yes
<MenZa> According to my schedule, that sounds about right
<czam> yep
<topyli> hi MenZa <3
<MenZa> Hello topyli :)
<topyli> i made it! was called to play drums for some people who needed drums played, but i was able to get out
<MenZa> excellent
<topyli> terrible, long day all in all :\
 * MenZa hugs topyli
<MenZa> I'm quite tired myself
<MenZa> Looking forward to hopping into bed
<fagan_> hi all
 * topyli tickles MenZa
<MenZa> hello, fagan_
<IngForigua> Hello everyone
<IngForigua> good luck today
<IngForigua> :)
<Ioneye> you too IngForigua :)
 * MenZa bows.
<asanchez> Hi everybody, thanks IngForigua
 * Ioneye bows before MenZa 
<ibuclaw> good evening
<AlanBell> evening all
<IngForigua> Good evening ibuclaw
<frandieguez> Hello everyone
<czam> AlanBell Hi
<Bodsda> Evenin all
<forumsmatthew> warm and cheerful greetings to all
<fmolinero> Hello everyone!
<czam> hola paco ;)
<tdr112> evening
<IngForigua> hola fmolinero buen trabajo como traductor
<czajkowski> Aloha
<ibuclaw> Bodsda, that was a quick smoke you sure had...
<MenZa> Evening czajkowski
<AlanBell> hi czajkowski
<declanmg> Hi all
<airurando> Evening everyone.
<MenZa> ibuclaw: You'd be surprised how quickly people can smoke when they're in a hurry :)
<AlanBell> wow, cz<tab> is ambiguous tonight!
<lau1> good evening
<ibuclaw> MenZa, indeed =)
<MenZa> AlanBell: it is!
<AlanBell> hi czam
 * MenZa pours coffee all around
<MenZa> evening, brobostigon
 * Ioneye thanks MenZa 
<Neil3> ey up :)
<brobostigon> hÃªlo MenZa
<liel> Hello
<asanchez> thanks fmolinero for the translations we use daily, it's difficult to find something untranslated into spanish because of you :D
<liel> Is there a meeting today of EMEA membership board?
<forumsmatthew> yes
<frandieguez> yes
<popey> yes!
<MenZa> there is indeed.
<Ioneye> Yes liel.
<frandieguez> we're all waiting
<popey> Seveas *poke*
<fagan_> good luck all
 * MenZa bows to fagan_ 
<popey> markvandenborre *poke*
<frandieguez> good luck!
<topyli> ah i see the clock
<markvandenborre> popey: alive and kicking!
<popey> yay
<popey> who are we missing?
<IngForigua> it's time :)
<liel> I wanted to register to this meeting, but I'm going to sleep at 20:30 UTC
<forumsmatthew> stgraber *poke*
<popey> ah yes
<markvandenborre> (I might have to leave the meeting early today!)
<hollman> hello all
<fagan_> evening Mean-Machine
<hollman> IngForigua: where is czam ?
<popey> well so far we are 3
<Mean-Machine> fagan_: hello
<IngForigua> hollman is here
<MenZa> popey: 'tis a start
<czam> here I am
<czam> Hi Hollman Thanks for your support :)
<IngForigua> czam the hollma's bithday is near xD
<hollman> ho czam IngForigua  good luck today !!!
<popey> just 1 min and we'll start
<IngForigua> thanks hollman ;)
<markvandenborre> popey: are you taking the lead this time?
<popey> yeah, can do
<forumsmatthew> sounds good to me
<Seveas> oi
<Seveas> sorry for being late
<forumsmatthew> \o/
<Neil3> A - L - A - N - B - E - L - L !!! *waves pompoms* YAY!
 * MenZa slides Seveas some taart.jpg.
<popey> yay
 * AlanBell blushes
<popey> right, lets start
<Seveas> fmolinero, you're up first
<fmolinero> Ok,
<ibuclaw> drubin, ! :)
<fmolinero> Hello everyone
<ibuclaw> and hi duanedesign,
<fmolinero> This is my secon time here
<forestpiskie> hi ibuclaw
<fmolinero> My name is Francisco Molineo. I'm spanish
<mhall119|work> hey All
<popey> nice beard
<mhall119|work> bah
<ibuclaw> hi fmolinero - and forestpiskie
<mhall119|work> AlanBell:
<forestpiskie> forumsmatthew: a word please
<fmolinero> And muy main job in Ubuntu is translate to spanish
<forumsmatthew> reminder: agenda is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<fmolinero> I'm a member of Ubuntu spanish ttranslator team
<popey> Ok, based on testimonials and clealy great translation work, I'm an easy +1 here
<Seveas> yay, there are testimonials now
<Seveas> +1, easily
<Seveas> thanks for coming back fmolinero
<forumsmatthew> agreed. +1 this time. thank you
<fmolinero> and may last time here the problem was that I have not people standing me
<Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
<markvandenborre> +1
<popey> yay
<markvandenborre> hurray!
<Seveas> ok, that was quick :)
<Seveas> welcome aboard fmolinero!
<topyli> <3
<fagan_> congrats fmolinero
<jchaves> congrats!
<frandieguez> congrats fmoliinero!
<Mamarok> contrats fmolinero
<czam> congratulations Fmolinero ;)
<fmolinero> thank you!
<liel> fmolinero: I see you are very active in Translations!
<Bodsda> congrats fmolinero
<MenZa> congratulations, fmolinero
<lau1> well done
<hollman> fmolinero: congrats from Colombia
<Seveas> ibuclaw, you're up
<Ioneye> congrats fmolinero !
<jchaves> contracts?
<czam> felicidades paco molinero ;)
<asanchez> enhorabuena Paco!
<fmolinero> gracias
 * popey has added fmolinero to ~ubuntumembers
<BlackZ> fmolinero, congratulations :D
<ibuclaw> Seveas, ty
<itnet7> congrats fmolinero !!
<drubin> \o/ ibuclaw goooood luck.
<Mamarok> oops, congrats, of course :)
<IngForigua> :) fmolinero bienvenido
<jchaves> hehe
<ibuclaw> If you haven't read it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ibuclaw
 * drubin is here to cheer on ibuclaw
<forumsmatthew> I will give a quick +1 because I know Iain well from his work in the forums
<popey> holy cow look at all those testimonials!
<duanedesign> Im here to support ibuclaw, his contribution to helping new users on the forums and in #ubuntu-beginners-help is second to none
<ibuclaw> My name is Iain Buclaw. I am a member of the Beginners Team. I have been contributing on the Forums and IRC since April 2008.
<Seveas> yeah, that's.... impressive
<forumsmatthew> also, forestpiskie asked me to lend his support as he had guests arrive at his house and couldn't stay
 * fagan_ didnt have that many testimonials when he got his ubuntu membership
<Bodsda> I have to go. But ibuclaw has a huge +1 from me
<markvandenborre> sorry to be so quick here, but I think a +1 is appropriate
<popey> yeah, thats an easy +1 from me
<Silver-Fox-> I support ibuclaw.  He's very friendly,  very helpful and an all round  great guy.  Big +1 from me =]
<Seveas> agreed, +1
<Seveas> ok, that's +4, welcome!
<ibuclaw> thanks =)
 * popey adds ibuclaw to ~ubuntumembers
<duanedesign> \o/
<frandieguez> congrats
<fagan_> congrats ibuclaw o/
<MenZa> ibuclaw: congratulations :)
<czam> congrats ;)
<Seveas> frandieguez, you're next
<Ioneye> congrats ibuclaw
<frandieguez> Hi everyone, just like fmolinero is my second time here.
<frandieguez> My name is Fran DiÃ©guez from Spain.
<drubin> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
<TuxPurple> congrats ibuclaw :)
<Bodsda> congrats ibuclaw
<Mamarok> congratulations ibuclaw!
<frandieguez>  I'm a software
<frandieguez> engineer working at Open Source Department of a large educational
<frandieguez> institution at Galicia (Spain)  http://www.usc.es/osl, here we are
<frandieguez> investigating, developing and deploying open source solutions based on
<frandieguez> Ubuntu distribution.
<Bodsda> :) \o/ \o/
<frandieguez> As a contributor I'm co-coordinator of the Ubuntu Galician Translation
<frandieguez> Team, focused on translate the Ubuntu OS to Galician language.  And
<frandieguez> co-coordinator of Galicia LOCO Team focused on spread the "word of
<frandieguez> Ubuntu" :P
<Mean-Machine> ibuclaw: nice one! congrats!
<frandieguez> Finally I translate GNOME desktop to galician language with just
<frandieguez> another person and currently we are focused on increase quality of
<frandieguez> translations (homogeneization, terminology, and others).
<ibuclaw> thanks all
<frandieguez> I'm also active on http://www.glug.es/ (Galician GNU/Linux User
<frandieguez> Group). On this group we try to talk to all the society the vantages
<frandieguez> of Open Source, making courses, lectures at University among other
<frandieguez> events related with Open Source. At our website you can find a lot of
<frandieguez> mini howtos based on Ubuntu OS.
<jchaves> congrats!!
<Seveas> another well prepared wikipage with clear contributions and testimonials. Easily +1
<Seveas> I like prepared people. I really do :)
<liel> +1 :)
<forumsmatthew> I completely agree, people are following directions and making it very easy for us thus far
<forumsmatthew> +1
<popey> +1 also
<Seveas> markvandenborre, final verdict is yours
<markvandenborre> +1
<Seveas> excellent, +4
<Seveas> congrats frandieguez!
<AlanBell> congrats frandieguez
<frandieguez> Thank you all!!
<jchaves> hurray!
<MenZa> frandieguez: congratulations :)
<Mamarok> congratulations frandieguez :)
<Seveas> AlanBell, you're up now
<fagan_> congrats frandieguez
<markvandenborre> ...and from me!
<AlanBell> just letting the applause die down for a second
<Seveas> (popey: can you keep doing the LP mangling?)
<itnet7> congrats frandieguez and ibuclaw !
<asanchez> enhorabuena frandieguez
 * popey adds frandieguez to ~ubuntumembers
<frandieguez> asanchez gracias
<popey> yes Seveas :)
<Seveas> ++popey
<IngForigua> Bienvenido frandieguez
<jchaves> well done, fran!
<czam> congrats ;)
<AlanBell> Hi I am Alan
<AlanBell> I run a little business called The Open Learning Centre with my friend Alan Lord (aka The Open Sourcerer)
<asanchez> frandieguez, we have to talk after this meeting, meybe we have common interests
<AlanBell> I have been doing IT consultancy of one type or another for 15 years
<AlanBell> My main focus used to be as a Lotus Notes and Domino developer, I worked for a number of Lotus then IBM business partners and in 2002 set up my own consulting business called Dominux Consulting, "Dominux" being the result of smashing together Domino and Linux
<AlanBell> I found the projects where I delivered the best value to my customers were the ones that incorporated a Free Software component as part of the solution
<AlanBell> so from there we set up a company to focus on the awesomness that is Free Software
<AlanBell> then we got enthusiastic about Ubuntu
<AlanBell> we are launching products based on Ubuntu
<AlanBell> and being a part of the Ubuntu community is important to us
<popey> I am aware of AlanBells work, have left a testimonial and will +1
<popey> I may be biassed though because AlanBell has brought me beer at my local pub at least once :)
<AlanBell> I can confirm that popey also bought a round
<markvandenborre> I have 100% confidence in popey's judgement, +1
<Seveas> I'm unconvinced by the wikipage, no real contributions to the ubuntu community are listed. Or am I reading it wrong?
<czajkowski> AlanBell: rocks and is ver helpful in #ubuntu-uk and is working with us on #ubuntu-women
<pleia2> I'm here to support AlanBell too, and I didn't accept any bribes ;)
<forumsmatthew> same here +1
<popey> Seveas: AlanBell provides support in our loco channel
<Neil3> +1 for AlanBell have seen that he's really helpful in #ubuntu-uk
<mhall119|work> I dunno, anyone who does that much with Lotus Notes is probably evil
 * czajkowski is here to support AlanBell 
<FFEMTcJ> lol
<Seveas> pleia2, *always* accept bribes :)
 * brobostigon also supports AlanBell 
<AlanBell> mhall119|work: I am a *retired* notes developer
<Seveas> AlanBell, are you bitter about it? :)
 * fagan_ supports AlanBell 
 * Mamarok gives her support to AlanBell, too
<mhall119|work> okay, you get my non-counting +1 then
<AlanBell> Seveas: actually no, the core of Notes is fantastic, and the architecture of CouchDB is based on some of the principals of that
 * Pendulum also supports AlanBell 
<Seveas> I'm +0, so +3 for AlanBell, which still is enough :)
<Seveas> welcome aboard AlanBell !
<mhall119|work> AlanBell: it was always the interface for Notes that bothered me
<Mamarok> congratulations, AlanBell :)
<czajkowski> AlanBell: whoooo congrats!!!!
<mhall119|work> congrats AlanBell
<MenZa> Congratulations, AlanBell.
<Ioneye> congrats AlanBell
<Neil3> 'gratz AlanBell
 * popey adds AlanBell to ~ubuntumembers
<topyli> yey!
<Seveas> topyli, you're up next
<fagan_> congrats AlanBell
<AlanBell> thanks!
<topyli> right
<Mamarok> yay, topyli!
<itnet7> congrats AlanBell !
<popey> ooo, topyli is an easy +1 for me, I've seen topylis work and it's great, combined with great testimonials
<Seveas> +â from me on topily, years of IRC contributions.
<Pici> woo! topyli!
 * MenZa concurs; topyli does amazing work in keeping -ot tidy and lovely.
<popey> get you with your unicode
<topyli> been a long day but here's a wiki page for a start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuhaSiltala
<topyli> i've been around forever in ubuntu-time, since the beginning. my contributions are mainly in irc support - for the first couple of years in #ubuntu, then in my local #ubuntu-fi. i'm a well known "linux person" in finland (some circles anyway)  and a very active advocate in my work as an academic, even though this work is more general than specific to ubuntu
<Seveas> popey, ascii doesn't have an 'infinity' symbol, so I have to make do :)
<topyli>  i'm a board member of the finnish national flug.  i'm a member of the irc operators team, and try to introduce the community spirit and norms to newbies on -offtopic channels, both main and local
<forumsmatthew> topyli, in your happy face picture you are wearing a hat that looks Moroccan, have you been there?
<topyli> s/flug/lug :)
 * popey chuckles at 'flug'
<topyli> forumsmatthew, i think i bought it in seville
 * stgraber waves
<popey> \o/ starcraft-ntbk
<popey> er
<popey> stgraber:
<stgraber> sorry for being late, just got some stuff delivered at home and had to help unload
<starcraft-ntbk> who what?
<Seveas> hey stgraber
<jussi01> A huge +1 for topyli from me, a valuable contributor in #ubuntu-offtopic, being an op in there is a tough job, but he does it with compassion and grace. His contributions in #ubuntu-fi dont go unnoticed either.
<popey> starcraft-ntbk: back to sleep
<forumsmatthew> yay, stgraber
<starcraft-ntbk> bah, everyone tab fails me ><
<Mamarok> I strongly support topylis application, he does an incredible amount of work in 24 hours, one wonders if he ever sleeps. We need more people like him
<Seveas> stgraber, you're not too late: lots more people coming up, we're grilling topyli now
<jussi01> Seveas: can I have a bite when the grillings done? :D
<popey> markvandenborre: you still here?
<Mamarok> jussi01: behave ;)
<markvandenborre> yes, but not for long, sorry
<topyli> jussi01, we can talk about it later :)
<Mamarok> new members are not for eating
<markvandenborre> +1 from me
<popey> stgraber: you ready to vote now you're here?
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, stgraber?
<markvandenborre> popey: and unfortunately, I'll have to go
<forumsmatthew> based on the testimonials, +1
<popey> no worries markvandenborre
<Pici> topyli gets a definite +1 from me.  I may have been bribed with a promise of a new tales from the offtopic.
<markvandenborre> see you all, and good luck to the candidates!
<forumsmatthew> see you, markvandenborre
<stgraber> +1 (testimonials, wiki page, ...)
<popey> yay
<Seveas> that's +5, welcome aboard!
<jussi01> Congrats topyli!
<MenZa> huzzah! and now, grilled topyli for all!
<Pici> yay!
<Seveas> czam, you're up
<MenZa> Congrats topyli - very much deserved :)
<czam> ok
<Mamarok> congratulations, topyli!!
 * popey adds topyli to ~ubuntumembers
<fagan_> topyli congrats
<czam> Hi everyone ;)  this is mi wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/czam/
<Seveas> MenZa, behave. You'll be charred in a bit.
<Pici> topyli: congrats :D
<topyli> whee! thanks for your confidence all
<czam> mi name is Carlos Andres Zambrano, I'm a GNU/linux user since 2004
<czam> I give support in the channel #ubuntu-co, in launchpad and mailing lists as ubuntu-es, ubuntu-co and for some days in the ubuntu-ar.
<czam> also actively participates promotional events in my Local team such as conferences, installation, SFD, UGJ and Release Party
<czam> I want to become an official translator into Spanish of Ubuntu
<czam> I'd like to help schools to implement Edubuntu with LSTP
<popey> http://picasaweb.google.es/czam01/SOftwareFreedomDayBogota2009#5383736714099226002   I don't think you could fit any more in there :)
<czam> Currently i'm working in Industrias Proton in which I'm migrating to Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy Heron),
<popey> http://picasaweb.google.es/czam01/SOftwareFreedomDayBogota2009#5383736720503829618   Ubuntu stand in 'Busier than mandriva stand' non-shocker! :)
<czam> popey, that picture was in SFD 2009
<popey> looks like you had a lot of interest?
<IngForigua> Lol
<hollman> Ubuntu stand in 'Busier than mandriva stand' non-shocker! :) ---> yeah :D
<Seveas> czam, when did you start actively contributing to ubuntu?
<czam> Seveas, since 2007 when I Satrted with feisty
 * Ioneye thinks why he is here...
<forumsmatthew> lots of launchpad answers and karma for doing so, as well as translation activity
<itnet7> congrats topyli (sorry out of the area for a sec!)
<Seveas> czam, I find 2 testimonials a bit thin for over years of contributions
<Seveas> Do you think you can gather a few more?
<czam> Seveas, off course ;)
<Seveas> czam, good, then I'm going to say -1 for now and hope you come to the next meeting with some more testimonials (unless the others vote +1, in which case you can ignore me :))
<czam> Seveas ok I hope so
<forumsmatthew> I'm borderline and am going to give a +0 (that will easily turn in to a +1 with more testimonials)
<popey> I'm agreed with forumsmatthew, for now +0.5, nearly +1, but if you can get a few more testimonials that would be great
<forumsmatthew> I wasn't aware we could give fractional amounts... :)
<stgraber> I'm going to follow forumsmatthew and popey on this one, come back with a few more testimonials and that'll be a +1, for now +0.
<popey> and keep up the great work czam !
<czam> ok popey
<Seveas> ok, see you next time czam!
<forumsmatthew> I look forward to your return
<Seveas> IngForigua, you're up
<IngForigua> hi
<IngForigua> Good evening, my name is Diego forigua ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ingforigua ) ( https://launchpad.net/~ingforigua ) I'm electronic engineer, I'm GNU/linux user since 2004, i used Fedora core 2, Suse 9, red hat 9, i knew ubuntu 2006 (ubuntu 6.06 LTS) and it's my favorite GNU/linux distro
<itnet7> czam awesome contributions so far!! keep up the good work!
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 2006 in launchpad-foundations "Deactivated memberships should be hidden" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/2006
<IngForigua> I'm member of member of the council of Ubuntu-co, i give support at IRC in spanish, lauchpad and mailing lists, i help with answers and translations for ubuntu
<IngForigua> my future plans for ubuntu
<IngForigua> Continue contributing with Ubuntu (translations, bug report, give answers).
<MagicFab> IngForigua rocks - *and* he asks/listens a lot for advice :)
<IngForigua> i'll participate in my Loco team, help translate to Spanish documents, continue to give presentations (conferences) and active member of ubuntu. Help migrate my university to ubuntu from my research groups, EIDOS and Soliun
<IngForigua> I love ubuntu :)
<IngForigua> thanks Magicfab
<Seveas> IngForigua, czam: you're both in the colombian team, why didn't you leave a testimonial for each other?
<IngForigua> I work in venezuela team an ecuador team
<czam> we are close friends, but as we know the testimoniasl is only for Ubuntu Member
<IngForigua> they can give me a testimonial of my work with ubuntu
 * czam supports ingforigua
<Seveas> czam, no, everyboty can write something to support prospective members, not just existing members
<MagicFab> Seveas, it's a bit against our culture to recognize each others work too.
 * hollman support tooo mucho IngForigua he and czam are among the most active members in our team !!
<hollman> **much
<czam> we don't know that, because we're very actively in Colombian Loco Team
<Seveas> just curious: why did you come to the EMEA meeting instead of the Americas meeting?
 * cleon recognizes IngForigua as an active member of Ubuntu colombian team in different events and isssues at an IRC chan
<IngForigua> clean tanks
<IngForigua> cleon thanks
<czam> Seveas, that its beacuse we want to become in a oficial ubuntu member before this year finishes
<fmolinero> I recognize the great job of IngForigua bringing suggestion in spanish translation
<IngForigua> My team (i'm member of council ubuntu-co) is the most active
<Seveas> czam, well, to be honest I don't see that happening. For IngForigua I also want to see more testimonials on his wikipage. I find it too hard to judge his contribution properly as it is now. -1
<forumsmatthew> Based on the testimony of MagicFab, I am willing to +1 IngForigua
<forumsmatthew> while having more on the wiki would be nice, he does have a pretty nice cheer squad with him today
<IngForigua> forumsmatthew thanks
<popey> hmm
<MagicFab> Seveas, I regularly and consistently see IngForigua in Answers and IRC. he's very active. Testimonials are fine but karma and other info in his wiki should help see through that.
<IngForigua> Seveas many people helps me, but i only have testimonials of ubuntu members
<forumsmatthew> I do understand the concern that Seveas is expressing, though
<MagicFab> And their local work at events is incredible. I see the organizing skills and patience it requires and IngForigua *gets it*. We need more like him.
<popey> I'm going to +1 because I trust MagicFab's judgement
<Seveas> MagicFab, the wikipage doesn't do it for me. It doesn't give any details about contributions to e.g. flisol. Just a few lines would do but it only lists the event
<IngForigua> popey thanks
<MagicFab> Well, all the links point to pictures he's taken as organizer and participant
<Seveas> stgraber, your vote?
<IngForigua> seveas I participate in many research groups, just to name the most important
<MagicFab> But yes, point taken, I personally reviewed his page (yes, he even asked for that) and we both overlooked that important detail. FLISOL is a huge, known event but yes it need proper linking.
<IngForigua> i help with ubuntu mirror in colombia
<Seveas> MagicFab, don't forget that you've come to the EMEA board, not a local board. I for one do not know FLISOL.
<IngForigua> http://matematicas.unal.edu.co/ubuntu/
<Seveas> stgraber, are you still with us?
<IngForigua> it is oficial mirror
<MagicFab> Seveas, correct, I am actually agreeing those links are missing.
<Seveas> hmm, looks like stgraber(s connection) has gone walkies. I don't really like to continue with only three board members.
<forumsmatthew> unfortunately, I'm going to have to leave shortly as well
<stgraber> just got back
<Seveas> ah nice
<forumsmatthew> good
<stgraber> quickly going through the backlog, give me 30s
<IngForigua> stgraber ok
<Seveas> MagicFab, another important thing: due to czam and IngForigua not being properly prepared we lost a lot of time. This is why preparation is important. There are a lot of people in the list for this meeting and now it looks like we have to disappoint a few.
<stgraber> Although I trust MagicFab's judgement, I'd rather see a more detailed wiki page and updated testimonials. -1 for now, will be glad to see both of IngForigua and czam again and change that for a +1.
<Ioneye> Seveas: patient is bliss ;)
<Seveas> ok, so that's +0, IngForigua please prepare your wikipage better for next time, see you soon!
<Seveas> ebel, you're up
<ebel> Hi
<tdr112> good luck ebel
<czajkowski> whoooo
<IngForigua> Seveas my wiki page is ready
<popey> keep up the great work IngForigua
 * Mean-Machine is here to support ebel \o/
<declanmg> go ebel!
<fagan_> o/*
<lau1> best of luck ebel
<ebel> I'm Rory McCann and this is my first time here
<ebel> My wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rorymcc
<airurando> best of luck ebel
<ebel> (cheers guys :) )
<slashtom> good luck ebel
<ebel> I'm from Dublin, Ireland, and I'm the point of contact for the ubuntu-ie loco
 * MagicFab whips the horse
<czam> ok see you next time
<MagicFab> Thanks for your time, we'll come back.
<forumsmatthew> MagicFab, please do so :)
<ebel> I've been helping run events (from bug jams to release parties to regular monthly pub meets)
<popey> i like the testimonials there
<ebel> I've been chairing ubuntu-ie IRC meetings for a while now.
<Seveas> +1 for ebel, that's an awesome list of contributions, also well documented and with testimonials
<ebel> I've also been a camara volunteer, teaching about ubuntu and linux in african schools
<forumsmatthew> easy +1
<popey> yeah, +1 here too
<ebel> aswell as providing some custom installers and tech support for camara
<stgraber> ah, that's easy: +1
<czajkowski> yay!
<Seveas> ok, +4, welcome aboard!
<fagan_> congrats ebel
<Mean-Machine> yea! well done ebel! congrats!
<airurando> Well Done Ebel!!!! Whoooooo!!!
<itnet7> congrats ebel!!! Go ubuntu-ie!!!
 * czajkowski gives ebel a great big hug!!!
<ebel> aw cool :)
<slashtom> well done ebel
<Seveas> declanmg, you're up
<lau1> well done
 * popey adds ebel to ~ubuntumembers
<tdr112> well done ebel
<declanmg> Hi folks, my name is Declan McGrath. I'm a Dublin-based Kubuntu fan and Ruby developer.
<Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!
<ebel> :D
<fagan_> thats 5 members for -ie now :)
<declanmg> Been turning up to the Linux and Ubuntu Dublin meetups for the best part of 2 years now in search of Free Beer :-)
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, how much time do you have?
<declanmg> My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/declanmg
<airurando> good luck declanmg
<forumsmatthew> If it is quick, I think I can hang in for one more application
 * Mean-Machine is here to support declanmg \o/
<ebel> good luck declanmg
<declanmg> thanks guys!
<lau1> best of luck declanmg
<czajkowski> declanmg: we're rooting for you
<declanmg> I've been involved on the development side of Ubuntu a little, most recently with the bazaar source control system.
<declanmg> My name aim is to try and get as many developers in Ireland into FOSS development.
<Seveas> hmm, ruby programmer, -1
<declanmg> I've been trying podcasting, giving programming lessons and generally any trick I can think of! But those Ubuntu UK Podcasters have the market sown up :-)
<popey> haha
<popey> dont you believe it!
<Seveas> (just kidding, but I've been fighting ruby too much lately...)
<declanmg> and a little python :-)
 * fagan_ forgot to give a testimonial for declanmg 
<czajkowski> Seveas: lordie! what a heart attack to give someone! :p
<Seveas> czajkowski, what would you say is declanmg's most valuable contribution to date?
<forumsmatthew> again, well done with the testimonials!
<declanmg> thanks forumsmatthew
<czajkowski> Seveas: he just turns up and starts helping out, I don't need to ask him to do anything
<Riddell> declanmg: how can Kubuntu and LoCos work better together?
<czajkowski> Seveas: he;s also quick to take pointers and get people motivated
<popey> uhoh, someone woke the Riddell
<Seveas> ooh, nice question Riddell, that's something we have problems with here in NL as well
<declanmg> Riddell: I think currently it works fine.
<declanmg> What I really want to do is...
<Riddell> it does?  we (kubuntu devs) don't do anything with locos
<popey> we're over-running and there's a cc meeting up next
<declanmg> ... get the the python guys i know into  ubuntu development
<Seveas> ok, finishing up then, +1 for declanmg
<FFEMTcJ> cc isn't for another hour isnt it?
<forumsmatthew> +1
<forumsmatthew> and I'm afraid that with that, I need to leave
<MenZa> FFEMTcJ: correct
<popey> +1 also
<popey> declanmg: feel free to ping me if you want to talk about podcasting :)
<declanmg> Riddell: i feel that there is always a good kubuntu representation here on the dublin scene
<stgraber> +1
<czajkowski> whooo another Irish Ubuntu Member, great stuff outta declanmg and ebel tonight :D
<fagan_> congrats declanmg
<Seveas> that's +4, welcome aboard!
<Mean-Machine> declanmg: congrats! now party time in #ubuntu-ie \o/
<ebel> :D
<forumsmatthew> best wishes all
<Seveas> BlackZ, Ioneye, FFEMTcJ, asanchez, MenZa: looks like we'll have to disappoint you for now. Please come to the next meeting!
<ebel> congrats declanmg
<MenZa> Seveas: Shall do.
<declanmg> popey: cheers. will do.
<fagan_> thats 6 -ie ubuntu members awesome
<lau1> congrats declanmg
<airurando> Brillian.t congrats declanmg
 * popey adds declanmg to ~ubuntumembers
<declanmg> thanks guys!
<Ioneye> it's ok Seveas :)
<declanmg> much appreciated!
<itnet7> congrats declanmg !!
<Mamarok> congratulations declanmg :)
<fagan_> :)
 * czajkowski loves her Irish LoCo 
<BlackZ> Seveas, ok.
<Seveas> MenZa, oh, and remind me to write something on your wikipage :)
<popey> pleia2 / Technoviking / sabdfl when's this cc meeting? dholbach said 21:00 UTC to me
<MenZa> Seveas: Appreciated. Will do :)
<asanchez> thanks for your time everybody
<Mean-Machine> Irish LoCo ROXX!
<MenZa> popey: According to the Fridge calendar, another hour from now
<pleia2> popey: it's in an hour, I think
<MenZa> i.e. 22 UTC
<popey> hmm
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> but maybe fridge is messed up :) it should be at 21:00
<Seveas> popey, but without matthew there's only three of us, and it looks like I need to pop out as well
 * fagan_ needs to go good job guys and gals
<MenZa> Sort it out among yourselves; the plan was an hour's meeting, and, well, it is getting late in most timezones
<mako> are you counting me?
<mako> MenZa: where most is european/african?  :)
 * MenZa hates having his planning screwed up, so completely understands the decision to #endmeeting
<popey> so i guess dholbach just messed his time up
<MenZa> night all - and congrats to all who were picked :)
<Seveas> night MenZa
<popey> s/were picked/earned it/ :)
<pleia2> popey: it should be now, the fridge is wrong
<popey> ah
<MenZa> Well, one is picked, *if* one has earned it, aye popey?
<Technoviking> The fridge is never wrong
<Technoviking> :)
<popey> ALL HAIL THE FRIDGE!
<popey> etc
<MenZa> Language barrier + fatigue = bad outcome
<pleia2> fridge gets confused by DST :\
<popey> ok, so cc'ers are back in 50 mins ya?
<Seveas> ALL HAIL THE BEER IN THE FRIDGE
<mako> yeah, i can be back in 50
<popey> thanks mako
<Ioneye> so the meeting for the EMEA is over?
<popey> yes
<pleia2> popey: yep
<popey> maybe we should schedule another EMEA for 2 weeks time
<popey> Seveas: i see you removed czam and IngForigua from the emea wiki page...
<Technoviking> so CC in 50 mins
<popey> should we not leave them on for next meet
<popey> yes Technoviking
<Seveas> popey, we haven't done that for the last few months
<IngForigua> Sorry
<Seveas> (iirc)
<popey> oh
<IngForigua> Seveas thanks
<IngForigua> Goodbye
<MenZa> popey: I was rejected back when CC took care of membership applications; I didn't return the following month, instead deciding I'd keep my contributions going for a while longer before re-applying
<MenZa> (so, now)
<Seveas> popey, I'm all for an extra meeting in 2 weeks time
<Seveas> stgraber?
<popey> cool
<Seveas> ok, need to leave now
<Seveas> bye!
<MenZa> I trust this'll be added to the Fridge if one is planned, popey?
<MenZa> Seveas: night!
<popey> yup
<MenZa> excellent
<nizarus> the cc meeting is over ?
<popey> cc in 40 mins
<nizarus> hi popey
<jarlen> hm, I didn't even get the chance to impress with the picture of MenZa playing chess in a roller coaster :/
 * nizarus still waiting for popey replay to my mail (you remember)
<popey> erk, really?
<Technoviking> hello
<popey> Hi!
<pleia2> hi
<Raidsong> howdy
<Technoviking> is mako and mario around?
<popey> just poked superm1
<mako> i'm around
<drubin> meeting
<drubin> ?
<pleia2> drubin: CC meeting, just gathering folks
<drubin> pleia2: I thought it was a beginners meeting.
<pleia2> drubin: that's being held over in -beginners
<drubin> they are both scheduled for 22:00 guess we moving to #ubuntu-beginners
<mako> seems to be scheduled for the same time :)
<drubin> no worries we have another channel.
<popey> not looking good
<pleia2> shame
<mako> so we have a pretty short aenda?
<pleia2> yeah
<mako> what is the problem
<pleia2> folks we need to discuss agenda items with aren't around
<Technoviking> we could discuss and vote on the Dell blog on the Planet on the mailing list
<popey> we're not quorate though are we?
<popey> so can't realistically vote
<mako> popey: well, i'd be happy to talk about the dell blog
<mako> or we can do it over email
<popey> I'm easy.
<mako> yeah, lets do it over email them and then publish something
<pleia2> sounds good
<popey> ok
<mako> it's just important that it happens
<popey> indeed
<mako> since we have a policy that corporate blogs aren't supposed to be on unless they're discussed
<Technoviking> anyone else got anything for the CC
<mako> yeah, we're all here
<mako> FSVO all :)
<Technoviking> Has Dell been removed for the planet feed for now?
 * popey had to google fsvo :)
<popey> no
<popey> the feed is still there
<Technoviking> I will remove it till we have a change to discuss
<mako> Technoviking: awesome, thanks
<Technoviking> done and done
<superm1> popey, Daviey i'm here
<superm1> hopefully not too late?
<popey> hi superm1
<popey> we've removed the rss feed for the dell blog from the ubuntu planet subject to it being discussed by the cc
<superm1> isn't that what's on this meeting's agenda?
<popey> yes, but that discussion hasn't happened yet
<popey> before you arrived we decided to take the discussion to the mailing list given the required people weren't here
<superm1> what kind of discussion does there need to be?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu#Corporate%20Blogs
<popey> well the criteria is detailed on that page
<popey> i guess the most pertinent one is "the CommunityCouncil must give permission "
<popey> the rest seem to be pretty well covered :)
<popey> does that sound fair?
 * Daviey feels it's a shame that it won't be discussed in the open.
<pleia2> now that superm1 is here, do we want to?
<pleia2> we don't have quorum to vote, but it can be discussed
<popey> I'm happy to
<pleia2> given the criteria for corporate blogs, I think dell's blog is acceptable
<popey> heh, I agree
<Technoviking> i agree also
<popey> mako: ?
<Technoviking> apparently mako has left the building
<popey> uh-huh-huh
<pleia2> is there anyone who would like to raise any objections for us to concider?
<pleia2> consider too, need sleeep
<popey> the only objection I have seen is a misguided blog post
<superm1> which one?
<superm1> there's a team of probably about 10 people who can comment to that blog, but the only stuff that should be showing up there is consumer linux related things
<popey> hmm, cant find it now
<popey> we (ubuntu uk podcast) have a feed on the planet, which I'll grant you isnt corporate, but equally isn't an individual. We as a group decided that only those of us who are Ubuntu members (thats me and Daviey) should hit the button that posts to the planet
<popey> the only concern I have is that there may be people who a) haven't signed the CoC, b) aren't members, may post to that blog
<popey> in our case it's technically possible for non-members to post to the planet (from the podcast feed) we don't do it as a matter of principle
<superm1> "# the company must have at least one Ubuntu member who can take responsibility for the blog "
<popey> exactly
<superm1> so that's me
<popey> but any of the 10 could post
<popey> fact is though as a corporate blog I'm guessing that your internal controls would prevent any of those 10 doing something monumentally stupid :)
<superm1> no, there's actually a peer review process for any blog post
<popey> and you hit the final button?
<superm1> i'm generally one of the peers who sees it, but lionel manchaca (sp) makes the final call
<Technoviking> superm1: can your blog you tags and only allow post tag Ubuntu to the planet, and you would be the one to add that tag?
<superm1> he's the big social guy for dell, and manages the presence on blogs, twitter, fb
<popey> Technoviking: it's tagged "Linux"
<popey> which seems sensible to me
<popey> http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/tags/Linux/default.aspx
<superm1> there might be a moblin or chrome thing that comes up every so often, but that's all ubuntu based anyway
<popey> .. and I'd say is interesting to the audience of planet ubuntu
<popey> (although everyone has their own opinion on that)
<Technoviking> superm1: can you pull the plug on a post if you think the Ubuntu community would not be interested
<Technoviking> or does what Lionel say goes
<superm1> posts can be pulled
<superm1> but they would be pulled from the blog as a whole, not just from planet syndication
<popey> Ok, so those of us here seem to agree that the dell blog is a +1 for inclusion on the planet
<popey> I'll mail this log to the cc and see if we can get a quick +1/-1 from everyone and re-enable the blog promptly
<popey> that sound okay?
<popey> I doubt there will be much in the way of discussion, so Davieys concerns about open discussion shouldn't manifest
<pleia2> thanks popey
<Technoviking> I'm still +1 if superm1 does see the posts first
<popey> sure, me too
<popey> so thats 3 of the 8 members of the cc, but that's not really enough
<popey> that okay superm1 ?
<popey> Daviey: ?
<superm1> sounds fine to me
<popey> Daviey is clearly busy upgrading his htc handset to android 2.1
<popey> sent
<Technoviking> ok, is there anything else for the CC
<popey> no
<Daviey> popey: heh
<superm1> okay thanks guys, cya
<Technoviking> ok, I think we will see people in two weeks
<Daviey> sounds good to me \o/
<Daviey> (the scrollback)
<garrythefish> not enough real drilling
<garrythefish> that's what's the problem with the lesbos at #ubuntu-women
<Daviey> !ops | garrythefish
<garrythefish> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-02
<zul> morning
<kane_> o/
<nijaba> \o
<ttx> o/
<sommer> hey all
<mjeanson> hi
<kane_> hi there
<alexm> o/
<nijaba> ttx: not sure you noticed, but I just added an item about the server survey on the agenda.
<smoser> hola
<ttx> nijaba: I saw that
<nijaba> ttx: cool, thanks
<zul> testcase printHelloWorld()
<zul>     print("Hello World!")
<ttx> soren, mathiaz, mdz: ?
<mathiaz> o/
<soren> Oh, right.
<ttx> kirkland: ?
<soren> o/
<nijaba> euca-run-instance meeting
<kirkland> ttx: morning
<Daviey> \o
<ttx> xc2 meeting
<EtienneG_home> for once, I will be hanging around!
<kirkland> nijaba: -t m1.xlarge
<soren> cloudctl create ec2 m1.xlarge ami-lets-just-get-on-with-it
<ttx> ok, let's start
<zul> EtienneG_home: yay!
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:03. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> ttx, hi
<ttx> First of all, let me introduce you to Jos Boumans, the new server team engineering manager.
<kane_> o/
<nijaba> Welcome Jos!
 * kirkland high fives kane_ 
<Daviey> hey Jos!
<ttx> kane_: you didn't force your IRC client to submission yet ?
<zul> hey kane_
<kane_> ttx: not yet. ran out of CFT my first day @canonical ;)
<soren> CFT?
<kane_> Copious Free Time
<ttx> kane might become jib in the future on Freenode
<kane_> nice to see some familiar faces here from UDS though :)
<zul> kane_, get use to the lack of thereoff from here on out
 * mdz hands jib some round tuits
<mdz> s/jib/jane_/
<mdz> kane_, rather
<nijaba> no wonders nobody knows what CFT is around here
<soren> Heheh :)
<mathiaz> kane_: o^25
<ttx> I'll chait this meeting so that Jos sees how it goes, but will gladly hand over the cross to Jos next week :)
<ttx> chair, even
<mdz> haha
<kane_> i, in turn, am very happy for ttx to chair
<ttx> next...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20091125
<ttx> ACTION: ttx to review status of bugs 455625, 460085 and 461156 for any missing info
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in eucalyptus "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<ttx> so I reviewed them... the first one is lacking some reproduction, the Eucalyptus team marked it invalid
<ttx> the second one is missing some feedback from the Eucalyptus team, basically the results of their long-standing rampart tests
<ttx> The third one is now fixed in Lucid, SRU pending
<ttx> ACTION: mathiaz to compile a list of easy merges for publication
<mathiaz> ttx: done - http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/a-selection-of-easy-merges-from-the-ubuntu-server-team/
<mdz> mathiaz, did that go out to the mailing list(s) as well?
<ttx> arh
<mathiaz> mdz: nope - I could send it there as well
<mdz> mathiaz, I think it would be useful
<ttx> mathiaz: I did a few days ago libcommons-attributes-java and libaopalliance-java
<mdz> dholbach gave us some feedback that we should use the mailing lists more
<ttx> mathiaz: and I wouldn't recommend the jruby1.2 one to the faint of heart
<mathiaz> ttx: yeah - that's possible
<mathiaz> ttx: I haven't looked at all the merge in details
<ttx> Now on to this week's agenda
<mathiaz> it's just a list  of suggestion - to get people started
<ttx> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<ttx> kane_: ?
<kane_> We covered most of them during the 1:1s we've had this week, and those that could be approved are.
<kane_> There are some that aren't on the alpha2 milestone, and it's on me to have those reviewed by next meeting (before featured definition freeze)
<mdz> ttx, other-cloud-providers and vmbuilder-multiple-outputs are awaiting review
<ttx> kane_: what about Feature definition freeze, and the remaining non-lucid-accepted-yet blueprints ?
<ttx> mdz: Will look into it
<kane_> mdz: the other cloud & vmbuilder aren't for alpha2 though, so we should have those done by next week
<kane_> the minimum we do for non-alpha2 specs BEFORE feature definition freeze is to make sure we have the summary, rationale & user story in the spec, and any notes we took from UDS
<kane_> that way we know what we're comitting to if/when we persue them in the next milestones
<ttx> kane_: the minimum to make sure we don't lose the results of the UDS session
<kane_> ttx: exactly
<ttx> kane_: ok, what about "Discuss process for ongoing progress tracking" ?
<kane_> feel free to summarize that one ttx
<ttx> We'll use http://www.piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html for global tracking
<ttx> Then for each alpha2 spec do a quick summary of status here ?
<ttx> We'll skip for this week, unless someone wants to mention they are already raising flags on their assignments
<kane_> yeah; there's a few easy ways to do this. I hope to cargo-cult on the other teams starting the next meeting.
<nijaba> I don't see any of the community BP on this. Normal?
<nijaba> I think ScottK and ivoks had some
<ttx> nijaba: They appear on http://www.piware.de/workitems/server/lucid/report.html
<ttx> they are not specifically targeted to alpha2 (good for them)
<mathiaz> nijaba: they may not have been targeted for alpha2 though
<nijaba> ah, ok, sorry
<ScottK> Still working on drafting.
<ScottK> Hope to finish shortly.
<ttx> Anyone has questions on this topic ?
<mathiaz> ttx: can we add WI to the whiteboard?
<mathiaz> ttx: what happens if the content of a WI changes?
<zul> for the canonical-application-support spec what if the packages are not approiate what should i put next to the TODO
<ttx> mathiaz: you mean if you add new ones, it will look like feature creep on the burndown chart ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<mathiaz> ttx: and IIUC this looks bad
<smoser> good questions mathiaz
<ttx> mathiaz: the chart will be reset at an arbitrary point in time
<ttx> i'd suggest FeatureDefinitionFreeze
<ttx> after that, added items will *really* be feature creep.
<ttx> kane_, mdz: ^ ?
<mathiaz> ttx: it seems that the list of WI should not be touched after Feature Definition
<mdz> I believe pitti planned to reset the chart today-ish
<ttx> mathiaz: well, it can, but then it really is considered feature creep.
<kane_> the WI is a reflection of reality
<mdz> but of course we can ask him to do it whenever it is appropriate for us
<mdz> I would say no later than tomorrow
<mathiaz> ttx: also I'm still tracking next things to do (may be the granularity is too small)
<kane_> the tool is there to give us insight, not something that restricts us from planning
<kane_> but ttx is right; if there's new (unforeseen) work popping up, that may be feature creep
<mdz> zul, when you review the package, you should change the "review" work item to "DONE"
<mdz> zul, if, once you have done that, it turns out there is nothing more to do, you should *delete* the other work items associated with that package
<mdz> this will reduce the total number of work items in the chart
<zul> mdz: gotcha
<ttx> mathiaz: you mean work items are too small ?
<ttx> mathiaz: not sure I get you
<mathiaz> ttx: well - I guess I'm using Work Items and Next Action (in GTD) as the same thing
<mathiaz> ttx: I think I understand myself - and we can move on
<ttx> I've been translating my work items into GTD next actions
<ttx> (manually, shame on me)
<ttx> moving on
<mathiaz> ttx: same here - but we can discuss this offline
<ttx> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<ttx> [LINK] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ttx> kane_: ?
<ttx> nothing assigned to team
<ttx> too many old bugs in that list to my taste, I think we should review what we should assign ourselves to
<ttx> but we'll let it be for the moment
<kirkland> ttx: +1
<ttx> shouldn't be the list of things you might work on someday
<ttx> but rather work in progress and what comes immediately after
<ttx> but I'm open to discussion
<ttx> it's just that the list as it stands is not very useful to review
<kane_> i have an action point on me to pick this up with marjo; there's an expectation that comes with bug list and i need to be brought up to speed with it
<zul> it isnt
<ttx> anyone has comments on the bugs they are assigned to on this list ? Anything blocking ?
<mathiaz> ttx: the date the bug was assigned is probably useful
<mathiaz> ttx: to make sure bugs are not aging
<ttx> We already discussed bug 460085, pending some eucalyptus upstream info
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460085 in eucalyptus "memory leak; rampart_context not freed (memory leaked per connection)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460085
<ttx> Nothing else ? OK, let's move on then...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review
<Daviey> \o/
 * ttx leaves the driver seat to mathiaz
<ttx> (while the car is still running)
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ any bugs SRU worthy on this list?
<ttx> only high thing on the list id bug 454405, which is a karmic SRU already
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 454405 in eucalyptus "the CC is returning incorrect networkIndex values on describeInstances" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/454405
<zul> mathiaz: bug 485760
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 485760 in php5 "Need to upgrade integrated zip module" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/485760
<kirkland> ttx: what's the plan for rolling/uploading a new SRU candidate of eucalyptus to karmic-proposed?
<mathiaz> no bugs nominated for dapper, hardy, intrepid, jaunty, karmic
<ttx> kirkland: we need to get around the CLEAN=1 thing, then upload
<ttx> kirkland: please see my comments on the related bugs and let me know what you think
<kirkland> ttx: i think we should upload, and then get around to the CLEAN=1 thing
<kirkland> ttx: yes, I'm on top of those
<mathiaz> hm - there should be bug 489418
<kirkland> ttx: i think it's better to have something in -proposed, and work on that incrementally
<ttx> kirkland: I'm ok for release, I committed to the ubuntu-karmic branch already.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 489418 in krb5 "Strange behavior of libkrb5 since karmic ..." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/489418
<zul> mathiaz:i just nominated 485760
<ttx> kirkland: and wrote the SRU report
<mathiaz> which means that list of nominated bugs is not accurate :/
<kirkland> ttx: okay
<ttx> kirkland: I wanted to get the feedback on rampart first though
<ttx> kirkland: but I'm ok either way
<kirkland> ttx: okay
<smoser> query ttx
<ttx> smoser: that's me
<kirkland> ttx: so the SRU is blocking on the CLEAN=1 bits, and rampart feedback?
<smoser> yeah, i'm a dolt
<czajkowski>  
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<ttx> kirkland: yes, but that doesn't prevent us from going to -proposed.
<kirkland> ttx: absolutely agree
<mathiaz> most of the SRU are related to eucalyptus
<mathiaz> zul: how are other SRU's going?
<mathiaz> And the list of bzr branch to review is empty for the server team
<zul> mathiaz: i havent had a chance to look at them due to spec writing
<mathiaz> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+activereviews
<mathiaz> Anything else on the SRU front?
<ttx> moving on...
<ttx> [TOPIC] 2009 Server Survey announce
<MootBot> New Topic:  2009 Server Survey announce
<ttx> nijaba: ^
<nijaba> I have just announced on Planet Ubuntu the release or the 2009 Server survey http://nicolas.barcet.com/drupal/en/2009-server-survey-announce
<nijaba> Call for action:
<nijaba> Last year this survey received a little bit less than 7000 full response and we hope to have at least that many this year.
<nijaba> In order to do so, it would be very nice that, in addition to the announce I made and the banner that Matt Nuzum is about to put on http://ubuntu.com/server, any of you that can republish the announce on a loco planet or some other means do relay the info in the next couple weeks.  So far, the plan is to keep the survey up at least until mid-january.
<nijaba> I will shortly send an email to the server ML with the same information.
<nijaba> questions?
<nijaba> suggestions?
<ttx> nijaba: any major change in the questions asked ?
<nijaba> quite a few changes, yes
 * ttx admits not having completed the survey yet
<nijaba> details on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Survey
<ttx> ok
<ttx> next is...
<mathiaz> nijaba: have you send an email to ubuntu-server@?
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<nijaba> mathiaz: as I just said, I will shortly send an email to the server ML with the same information.
<mdz> I believe there is still an open issue regarding the meeting time?
<ttx> mdz: yes, problematic for kirkland, impossible for nurmi
<mdz> who has the ball?
<nijaba> ivoks is complaining that he cannot attend during his work hours
<ttx> mdz: kirkland hasd to ping maria, I think
<kirkland> mdz: ttx: yes, I need to talk to maria
<mdz> maybe jos has some bandwidth to help, and he's in a nearby time zone to maria
<ttx> mdz: ball is in kirkland side of the field, offense team is up.
<kirkland> mdz: actually, I was sort of waiting on Jos to come on board, to make sure his availability was taken into account
<mdz> kirkland also has blueprints to worry about ;-)
<kane_> mdz: luckily i don't ;)
<kane_> i'm happy to take this on -- i'll talk with kirkland seperately, figure out where it hurts and get a resolution
<kirkland> kane_: one our later would suffice for both nurmi and i
<kirkland> s/ our / hour /
<kane_> kirkland: understood. that may bite with other calls though, so let's sort it seperately if you don't mind
<kirkland> kane_: sure thing
<ttx> Anything else anyone wants to bring up ?
<Daviey> Spamassassin - 3.3.0 will hit beta "soon", i've emailed the DM to ask if he wants to work together to get the package updated.
<mathiaz> Daviey: how stable is spamassassin 3.3.0 for an LTS?
<ttx> mathiaz: kane_ volunteered to write the meeting minutes (since he will write them all soon) so could you get him up to date with the minutes publication process ?
<mathiaz> ttx: sure
 * kane_ thinks ttx may be taking this chairing thing very serious ;)
<Daviey> mathiaz: well it's still not even beta :).. But for *supporting* the released version - upstream would likely be more receptive for the LTS period.
<ttx> kane_: let me enjoy that position for the last time :P
<ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<ttx> Unless something else is announced, same time, same place, next week.
<mdz> [action] jos?
<ttx> [ACTION] jos to find out the best time for the meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jos to find out the best time for the meeting
<Daviey> (if it is changed, update the fridge)
<ttx> thanks everyone !
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:48.
 * ttx opens the bar
<mdz> just one last thing...
<kane_> thanks guys
<mdz> ttx, kane_ and I went over your blueprints with sabdfl yesterday
<nijaba> thanks for hosting ttx
<mdz> and he was very pleased with your work
<mdz> well done
<ttx> +1
<Daviey> top banana
 * smoser claps for ttx
<kane_> (you guys)++
<smoser> ah. thats funny. i read mdz's statement to say that mdz and kane_ and sabdfl talked about ttx's work
 * kirkland high fives ttx
<ttx> smoser: not.. really.
<smoser> that "your" == ttx's . anyway. i'll be quiet now
<kirkland> well done, ttx!
<soren> Oh, that's what I thought as well. :)
<alexm> congrats, ttx
<ttx> well done everyone
<ttx> stop congratulating me
<ttx> "<mdz> (ttx, kane_ and I) went over team's blueprints with sabdfl yesterday"
<smoser> (i'd just like to say, that ttx's work was good, but zul's had one of the best videos *EVER*)
<zul> wha?
<ttx> smoser: link
<kane_> smoser++
<ttx> I remember sabdfl congratulating smoser, though.
<mdz> ah, sorry I was unclear...I mean "the server team's work"
 * smoser was trying to make a joke about http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20302940_20304165,00.html
<smoser> but should have said "of all time", not "EVER"
<artir>  
 * nealmcb opens a bleary eye and sees he wasn't up quite early enough for the server team :)
<Daviey> early bird catches the worms.
<mhall119|work> who wants worms anyway?
<mhall119|work> the late bird gets the brunch specials
<nealmcb> lol
<cjwatson> foundations folks?
<mvo> hi
<ev> hi
 * cjwatson works out the list to go round up
<cjwatson> sorry I got back a little late
<cjwatson> robbiew has a schedule conflict, and Keybuk is ill
<cjwatson> james_w,lool,slangasek: ping?
<james_w> hi
<james_w> sorry
<cjwatson> the only thing I have myself is the imminent feature approval deadline (TOMORROW)
<james_w> indeed
<cjwatson> the cronmail whine I get indicates that there are still nine specs without work items
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-daily-builds foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root foundations-lucid-multiarch-support foundations-lucid-puppet-installer foundations-lucid-ratings-and-reviews-in-software-center foundations-lucid-robust-python-packaging foundations-lucid-upstart-policy foundations-lucid-upstart-server-review foundations-lucid-user-contributed-metadata-for-software-center
<cjwatson> I've asked mathiaz about foundations-lucid-puppet-installer, and I've asked Keybuk about foundations-lucid-upstart-policy and foundations-lucid-upstart-server-review
<cjwatson> foundations-lucid-fix-iscsi-root is mine and I'll get it done today
<cjwatson> so for the remainder:
<cjwatson> james_w: foundations-lucid-daily-builds
<cjwatson> slangasek: foundations-lucid-multiarch-support
<james_w> yes
<cjwatson> mvo: foundations-lucid-ratings-and-reviews-in-software-center foundations-lucid-robust-python-packaging foundations-lucid-user-contributed-metadata-for-software-center
<james_w> and I think distributed-development
<mvo> cjwatson: thanks, I work on that today, the first two are launchpad specs to a certain extend
<cjwatson> there are some that don't show up in cronmail because they aren't targeted yet, or similar
 * mvo will add work-items to the best of his knowledge for them
<cjwatson> anyway, as Robbie already said, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid?searchtext=foundations is the list of work he has discussed with Mark already
<cjwatson> if you're planning anything NOT there, please shout ASAP
<cjwatson> because otherwise we won't be taking it into account for how heavily loaded you are, which is not in your best interest :)
<lool> (sorry had a phone call at the beginning of the meeting)
<mvo> mpt wants to have a software-center-ui-changes spec
<cjwatson> is there a laundry list of proposed changes already?
<mvo> he has one, but its not written down anywhere yet AFAIK
<cjwatson> ok, is there any hope of getting it written up by tomorrow?
<mvo> I told him that the deadline is tomorrow
<mvo> frankly with the load we have for s-c we will need help on this anyway
<mvo> from DX or someone else
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> (especially since its not glade file changes)
<mvo> aha, a volunteer ;) ?
<cjwatson> mvo: one of the work items probably ought to be going to find dbarth, then. :)
<tremolux> mpt mentioned to me that he expects to have all updates to the spec finished by tomorrow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=show&redirect=SoftwareStore
<mvo> heh :)
<cjwatson> tremolux: OK, that's good, although we'll probably need a broken-out one for the specific changes from karmic->lucid as well
<cjwatson> unless there's already a section for that
<mvo> agreed, I think we need to have them as work items
<tremolux> mvo, cjwatson: right
<tremolux> just meant it as an fyi  :)
<cjwatson> james_w: you already have WIs for distributed-development, although they don't look complete :)
<james_w> if only :-)
<cjwatson> slangasek: foundations-lucid-multiarch-support needs work items written up, if you didn't see that in scrollback; will you have time to do that by the deadline tomorrow?
<james_w> the distributed development spec is fundamentally carried over from karmic, so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/ImproveDebianImportSpecification mostly applies from last time
<james_w> should I re-purpose that, or make a new spec?
<slangasek> cjwatson: yep, will have it done today
<cjwatson> james_w: re-purposing that is fine
<james_w> thanks
<cjwatson> relatedly, http://www.piware.de/workitems/foundations/lucid-alpha2/report.html is what we have to do for alpha2 (briefly, I think, things that are critical to product roadmaps) so if there's anything else you believe should be there then please either let robbiew or me know, or just milestone it
<cjwatson> we'll be tracking pages such as that as we approach each milestone, along with the overall burndown list: http://piware.de/workitems/foundations/lucid/report.html
<cjwatson> that "nobody" dude is a bit oversubscribed right now, so I think some work items need specific assignment :)
<james_w> specs are targeted, not work items?
<cjwatson> anyway, that's all I have
<cjwatson> james_w: correct
<james_w> ok
<cjwatson> oh, also, welcome tremolux to the foundations team for this cycle!
<cjwatson> (I can't remember whether we did that already, so making sure ;-) )
<james_w> I'm not sure my specs will fit this scheme too well
<james_w> welcome tremolux!
<ev> welcome tremolux!
<cjwatson> james_w: it's OK to register individual specs pointing to the same wiki pages, FWIW ...
<cjwatson> although not entirely unconfusing
<james_w> cjwatson: ah, interesting approach
<tremolux> thanks!  :D  very glad to be here
<cjwatson> you could use anchors
<mvo> welcome
<cjwatson> any other business?
<ev> mvo: Are you comfortable with me assigning the work item for a slideshow in the release upgrader to Dylan McCall?  He's expressed a willingness to help create that.
 * lool hugs tremolux 
 * tremolux hugs look
<tremolux> lool
<tremolux> (jeez)
<mvo> ev: sure, that is fine
<ev> okay cool
<ScottK> cjwatson: I have one issue.
<mvo> ev: I'm happy to help him with that too, so that he has a easier time to find his way in the code etc
<cjwatson> ScottK: go
<ScottK> Currently qt4-x11 is FTBFS on armel due to an internal compiler error
 * cjwatson looks up the log
<ScottK> Debugging armel compiler bugs is a bit beyond the community to do.
<cjwatson> I wonder if that's another of the -minternal-it=thumb bugs?
<lool> I'd poke the mobile team, specifically NCommander was looking into kde-ish/qt-ish issues in the past
<cjwatson> asac: ^- do you know what's going on there?
<ScottK> It would be useful if we could get this fixed sooner rather than later as we can't really do anything towards getting KDE building on armel until it's fixed.
<ScottK> lool: I already poked NCommander.  He saw it was an ICE and ran.
<ev> mvo: cool, I'll let him know
<cjwatson> cjwatson@jocote:~$ dchroot -c lucid
<cjwatson> dchroot: pthread_mutex_lock.c:87: __pthread_mutex_lock: Assertion `mutex->__data.__owner == 0' failed.
<cjwatson> Aborted
<cjwatson> ^- doesn't help
<lool> cjwatson: Yes, implicit-it= might help indeed
<cjwatson> lamont: ^- is there any reasonable way to get at an armel lucid chroot right now?
<lool> cjwatson: Where is this on?
<lool> Hmm v7 porter machine
<lool> (I was wondering whether it might have been the older v5 one)
<ScottK> I know doko_ was on vacation last week and is sick now, but I wanted to highlight it as a significant foundations issue that we need some help on.
<cjwatson> I am aware that a number of architectures have similar problems
<cjwatson> ScottK: noted - I'll minute it and see what we can do about it. Thanks
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<asac> cjwatson: try LANG=C dchroot ...
<asac> thats the workaround
<lool> ScottK: Not sure that's the issue, but the syntax of ARM assembly source changed, one compiler flag tells gas to parse the old style syntax -Wa,-implicit-it=thumb
<asac> afaik qt/kde issues are not only thumb
<cjwatson> asac: ah, thank you
<asac> but its on our list to evaluate
<cjwatson> except not
<doko_> yes, I'll add this for the next upload, but the glib issue is unrelated to that
<asac> ack
<cjwatson> LC_ALL=C LANGUAGE= dchroot ... # same thing
<asac> hmm
<asac> LANG=C dchroot -clucid
<asac> I: [lucid chroot] Running login shell: '/bin/bash'
<asac> (lucid)asac@jocote:~$
<cjwatson> ah, -clucid rather than -c lucid works
<cjwatson> grr
<asac> ;)
<cjwatson> (it still aborts on logout, but hey)
<ogra> cjwatson, its pretty sure one of the -minternal-it=thumb bugs
<cjwatson> I'll test that out
<cjwatson> AOB?
<ScottK> We're close to uploading qt4-x11 4.6.0 final, so any arch specific compiler flags to try, please just let me know.
<lool> Hmm no specific assembly in the source, it might not be implicit-it-thumb after all :-/
<ogra> lool, the log seems to fail with assembler stuff
<cjwatson> well, look, this is easily determined experimentally, we don't have to argue it from theory :)
<lool> Actually I think it's a compiler internal structure, anyway #ubuntu-arm
<lamont> cjwatson: LANG=C
<lamont> just not sure what package to file the bug against...
<ogra> lamont, you forgot to say your macro "patches accepted" ;)
<lamont> LANG=C dchroot is fine, fwiw
<cjwatson> anyway, end of meeting, I think we're done
<cjwatson> thanks all
<lamont> ogra: that was sepcial for you
<ogra> ah :)
<slangasek> thanks, folks
 * ogra feels special now :)
<lool> ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcc-4.4/+bug/490391
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 490391 in gcc-4.4 "GCC internal error (unrecognizable insn ...) building qt4-x11 for Thumb-2 on armel" [Undecided,New]
<lool> (It's definitely thumb specific though)
<ScottK> OK.  So should I add -Wa,-implicit-it=thumb for armel for our next upload?  This armel stuff is pretty well greek to me.
<ogra> ScottK, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 might help a little
<cjwatson> ScottK: I'm going to test that out nowish
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
 * marjo waves
 * ara waves
<pedro_> hola!
 * fagan waves
<bdmurray> hey
 * fader_ waves.
<sbeattie> hey
<marjo> fagan: glad you can join us
<davmor2> hello
 * fagan remembered this time :D
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> Agenda:
<marjo>     * SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo>     * Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo>     * QA mailing list -- fader
<marjo> Anybody want to add to the agenda?
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU activity has slowed about, perhaps due to the US holiday last week.
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-11-24):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 11 new packages in -proposed (app-install-data-partner, conduit, devicekit-disks, evolution-indicator, iriverter, linux-firmware, muse, openafs, samba, telepathy-gabble, xorg-server) and 10 pushed to -updates (deja-dup, eucalyptus, gdm, kdeedu, kdeplasma-addons, treeline, tzdata, uim, ureadahead, xorg)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (conduit, openafs) and 1 pushed to -updates (tzdata)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 1 new package in -proposed (pidgin) and 1 pushed to -updates (tzdata)
<sbeattie> * hardy: 2 packages pushed to -updates (sun-java6, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * dapper: 1 package pushed to -updates (langpack-locales)
<sbeattie> Thanks to Morten Frisch, bluenibor, VPablo, Alastair Carey, Mario Limonciello, Pjotr12345,  Steve Dodier,  Zaar Hai, Evan Broder, Fabrice Coutadeur, Philip Muskovac, and Jonathan Thomas for testing proposed updates.
<sbeattie> That's all I have on the topic for this week.
<marjo> sbeattie: thx
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> Tomorrow we're having our first Bug Day after coming back from UDS
<pedro_> the target will be Ubuntu Translations https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091203
<pedro_> Thanks a lot to Victor Vargas (aka Kamusin) who organized mostly all of it
<marjo> Kamusin: thx!
<pedro_> Next Week we're having a Compiz bug day and we are looking for more hands to organize it
<pedro_> so if you have some time and want to learn how to organize a bug day just drop your name on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning
<pedro_> also if you have some ideas about the next target don't be shy and add it to that page as well
 * fagan will volunteer next week busy with college
<pedro_> fagan, awesome! thanks
<pedro_> marjo, that's all from here
<marjo> fagan: thx; glad to know you have the right priorities!
<fader_> marjo: I thought the right priorities were QA > sleep > food > studying
<fader_> :)
<pedro_> sleep? food? what for?
<pedro_> :-P
<fader_> Hehe
<marjo> fader_: we need to talk privately :) for me to give you some needed advice
<fagan> for me is food>college assignments>classes>everything else :D
<marjo> [TOPIC] QA mailing list -- fader
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA mailing list -- fader
<fader_> So with our recent discussions around transparency and involving the community more, I have realized we don't have a good venue to discuss general QA topics
<fader_> There is a QA team mailing list on LP, but it seems to be older and has some entry requirements:
<fader_> (And I lost the URL, hang on :) )
<fader_> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa
<marjo> fader_ : lack of sleep...
<fader_> stgraber is the owner of this, so I was hoping he might be able to tell us a bit about the rationale behind it being somewhat restricted
<fader_> And to see if anyone else thinks it would be useful to have a general QA mailing list to discuss what needs tested and how to improve practices
<bdmurray> I was looking at this last week or so
<davmor2> ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com this one you mean
<ara> fader_, the team is moderated, but the list is open https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-qa
<fader_> ara: Ah, I interpreted the team being moderated to mean the list was as well, thanks
<bdmurray> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2008-July/000166.html
<marjo> fader_ : so no need for yet another mailing list, right?
<fader_> Is this something we can/should point people to when they are interested in helping to test Ubuntu?  I'd be happy to help point people there and make announcements as we need tests
<marjo> fader_: yes, please
<davmor2> marjo: no just utilise the one we already have :D
<fader_> marjo: I'd say no, assuming everyone is happy using this existing list
<fagan> isnt it because we own the sru tools
<marjo> that should be part of our community outreach for testing
<fader_> Excellent, I'll send people there whenever they look like they can be tricked into helping us test. :D
<ara> for the testing team we are going to have ubuntu-testing mailing list
<marjo> ok, so from now on, we will use that list to get the word out to a broad audience
<fader_> ara: What is the goal of that list?  How is it going to be different from the QA team list?
<marjo> ara: can't you also announce to the qa list we're talking about? more, the merrier, no?
<fagan> Id like to have one main list rather than a QA list and a testing list
<fader_> +1, unless ara has a legitimate reason to split the two
<ara> I wanted to have a sense of team, as the bugsquad. ubuntu-testing for team discussions
<fagan> Fragmentation is bad when the teams are small
<marjo> fagan: i'm thinking of the QA list as covering a broader audience, while the testing list is for testing only
<marjo> fagan: but we want to expand the community from small to bigger
<fader_> Is there anyone interested in the QA list that would not be interested in testing?
 * fagan doesnt think so
<marjo> i ASSume QA list > testing list, no?
<fader_> I'd hate to have to join two lists and post/see the same information twice :)
<marjo> fader_: oic
<fagan> I think we should revisit it when the testing team gets bigger
<fader_> Again, maybe I'm missing a use-case, but I agree with fagan on this one
<ara> fader_, but, again, we can keep ubuntu-testing as internal discussion of the team
<fagan> Most of us are on IRC anyway
<fagan> I see ara's point though
<ara> fader_, not for announcements, but for things like, who is going to update the wiki for blah, blah, blah
<fader_> Ahh, I see -- so have the QA list be very general for announcements and such, but the 'real work' gets done on the testing list?
<ara> fader_, the testing work yes
<fagan> Sure then
<marjo> i thot one of the problems we were trying to solve was to announce things like ISO testing and want to reach a broad audience?
<fader_> ara: I see.  That sounds reasonable :)  I'd still personally vote for starting with one list and splitting off a second if it's needed, but I won't fight too hard. :)
<marjo> therefore, use the QA list in addition to testing list
<sbeattie> marjo: sure, that's a typical thing to announce.
<fagan> +1 then too
<fader_> marjo: My worry is that anyone who will do ISO testing needs to be on the testing list anyway, to coordinate
<marjo> fader_ : yes, of course
<sbeattie> personally, I'd like to see the QA team list get more discussion traffic as well.
<marjo> so, your concern is the dup of info, right?
<fader_> marjo: So basically, everyone has to be on both lists anyway, right?  That's what I'm trying to avoid, having two lists that are interdependent; why have them?
<ara> I don't mind using ubuntu-qa list, I just prefer the -testing term :)
<fader_> Heh so maybe a name change is in order :)
<ara> fader_, no, no worries
<ara> fader_, if it is going to be a testing discussion on it, ubuntu-qa seems good to me
<marjo> ara: if that's the case, let's just use ubuntu-qa list
<davmor2> Very quickly I think the ubuntu-qa mailing list was one of laserjocks implementations to improve qa involvement
<marjo> davmor2: well then we've just rediscovered the original intent which remains the same today!
<marjo> brilliant!
<ara> davmor2, yes, but now it is just a list of mails from people asking for CDs :D
<sbeattie> davmor2: the list predated the team, the team was the "improve involvement" bit.
<davmor2> ubuntu-testing ties into the main irc channel etc so it might be better to drop the qa in favour of the general testing
<marjo> davmor2: no!
<fader_> davmor2: Or use #ubuntu-quality more :)
<fagan> davmor2: QA is the umbrella for testing
<marjo> to me, QA includes bug management and testing
<marjo> fagan: agree!
<fader_> At any rate, I think there is agreement that we should at least be using the list we have now, and that we might need a second one in the future.  I propose that we try to use the existing list and encourage people to sign up for it and discuss this further on-list as warranted.
<fagan> fader_: +1
 * fader_ hustles off to sign up for the mailing list.
<marjo> fader_: just to be sure, what "list we have now" are you proposing?
<fader_> marjo: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa
<fagan> ubuntu-qa marjo
<marjo> ok, so the decision is:
<marjo> Continue to use: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa for QA related announcements and discussions
<marjo> everyone agree?
<cr3> +1
<fader_> +1
<fagan> but we have to promote the list too
<davmor2> +1
<ara> +1
<fagan> +1
<fader_> fagan: Definitely! :)
<on3_g> +1
<bdmurray> +1
<schwuk> +1
<sbeattie> +1
<pedro_> +1
<marjo> fagan: yes, i think that was a major part of the problem; no promotion of the list, so it was not well used
<marjo> anything else on this topic?
 * fagan puts a planet post about the ubuntu-qa team on his todo list
<fader_> marjo: Not from me; I'm happy.
<fader_> fagan: Good idea; I'll blog about it as well.
<marjo> fader_: thx for bringing it up and taking the lead
<fader_> np
<marjo> wow, such a lively discussion
<marjo> i love it!
<marjo> ok, any new topics for today?
<davmor2> fader_, schwuk: should there be a quick link to the mailing list from the main ubuntu-qa page if there isn't one
<fagan> I think for the launchpad team we should keep it moderated and maybe make a new team for beginners
<fader_> davmor2: There's not now AFAIK...
<fagan> Like what the docs team did a while back
<on3_g> fagan: +1
<schwuk> davmor2: ok
<davmor2> it'll help promote it with a minimum of work
<fader_> fagan: That might be a good topic to discuss on-list, as maybe someone can fill me in on the purpose of the group(s) there :)
<on3_g> i think info for beginners is poor
<marjo> fagan: can you please remind us of what the "docs team did"?
<fader_> on3_g: +1
<marjo> folks: remember one of the outcomes at UDS was:
 * kamusin on3_g +1
<marjo> make it simple for the community to get involved, step 1, 2, 3...
<on3_g> and info for another distro flavors like xubuntu and kubuntu (especially) too
<fagan> Well the documentations team has two parts the main team thats open and the commiters team for really active people it gives new contributes something to aim for
<marjo> fagan: oic
<on3_g> marjo: +1
<marjo> and they find it to be effective?
<fagan> Yep
<fagan> Plus the moderated team can own SRU tools..etc
<ara> in any case, I would keep the testing team for people willing to test
<fagan> ara: thats a given
<marjo> ara: agree
<ScottK> Generally I  think it would be good if the QA team considers itself working on Ubuntu the project, not just Ubuntu the distro.
<ScottK> That would encompass the other flavors as well (even if they get less resources from Canonical)
<fagan> ScottK: we do test kubuntu and xubuntu as well
<ScottK> fagan: I'm aware
<ScottK> It's just that when you say it's the Ubuntu QA team, think of Ubuntu the project, not Ubuntu the distro.
<davmor2> ScottK: I don't but I only had time to rewrite the ubuntu desktop/installer/server testing docs so none really exist for kubuntu etc yet :(
<on3_g> fagan: but all the info is related to ubuntu the distro
<fagan> on3_g: well im sure I saw on qa.ubuntu.com kubuntu isos to be tested
<davmor2> on3_g: see above
<on3_g> fagan: that's rigth but, is not just about iso testing
<marjo> on3_g: the charter for the QA team is:
<marjo> The Ubuntu QA team is focused on developing tools, policies, and practices for ensuring Ubuntu's quality as a distribution as well as providing general advice, oversight, and leadership of QA activities within the Ubuntu project.
<fagan> I thought kde upstream has a very extensive qa process
 * fagan has got to go for dinner but will pick up the logs from the rest of the meeting
<fader_> Maybe improving some of these test cases would be a good starting point for people looking to help but who don't know where to start.
<davmor2> 1 query I have about upgrades dapper is pretty much coming to end of support isn't it should we be looking at doing upgrade from dapper-server to hardy-server aswell as hardy->lucid?
<on3_g> marjo: ok
<sbeattie> davmor2: yes, that's part of the LTS upgrade testing plan
<marjo> fader_ agree
<sbeattie> davmor2: at least, walking through dapper -> hardy -> lucid, and finding issues anywhere along the path.
<bdmurray> and we can start dapper to hardy testing now! ;-)
<sbeattie> indeed! That's another excellent place for people to start.
<davmor2> sbeattie: I just meant ensuring that dapper would upgrade to hardy still and separate hardy->lucid tests.  Being as if a user is still on dapper it's for a reason so they'll probably only want to upgrade to hardy rather than lucid
<marjo> davmor2: you're probably right, so we should take that into account
<marjo> for the upgrades test matrix
<marjo> i think we have to be smart about upgrades testing because of the potentially humongous problem space
<marjo> yet, aim for largest possible test coverage
<davmor2> sbeattie: maybe me and you can get together tomorrow afternoon (for me) morning (for you) and trash out a plan?
<ScottK> One problem we had Dapper -> Hardy was that most of the testing was done on Main upgrades, but Universe packages failing can affect the overall upgrade success.
<marjo> ScottK: yes, that's part of the being smart concept
<ScottK> Right, just mentioning it since a lot of the people here weren't around then.
<on3_g> davmor2: for begginers something like http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLove wil be great
<marjo> the challenge is to plan ahead of time which paths to take
<sbeattie> davmor2: I unfortunately have conflicts tomorrow, but perhaps we can take it to email? I do want to explore this.
<davmor2> sbeattie: no worries dude
<marjo> ok, folks, we're down to 8 minutes
<marjo> we should continue this sort of discussion as we solidify test plans for lucid
<marjo> folks: anything else for today?
<marjo> if not, i propose we adjourn the meeting
<fader_> Just a reminder that A1 is next week... get ready for testing!
<davmor2> not here
<davmor2> working iso's would be good for that :)
<fader_> davmor2: agreed :)
<marjo> going once
<marjo> twice
<marjo> meeting adjourned
<marjo> thx everyone for your participation!
<cr3> cheerio folks!
<ara> thanks!
<marjo> see you next week
<fader_> Thanks all!
<sbeattie> thanks, everyone!
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:56.
<davmor2> thanks all
<popey> BONG!
<jcastro> woo
<popey> LoCo Council meeting time
<keffie_jayx> :D
<JanC> âº
<nizarus> oh the big BONG :)
<huats> popey, I am :)
<popey> czajkowski / huats / itnet7 Welcome! - new members of the Ubuntu LoCo Council!
<huats> popey, thanks !
<itnet7> Thanks!
<czajkowski> thank you :)
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda is our agenda
<popey> Ready to begin?
<huats> popey, I am around at the beginning while I am eating
<huats> ..
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamContact/ProposedAddition
<huats> but I am ok
<popey> Proposed addition to the loco team contact as clarification.. anyone got any comments about that?
<popey> This came about after we discovered some LoCo teams actively _discouraged_ communication between the LoCo Contacts list and their own LoCo
<popey> we want to discourage that discouragement :)
<czajkowski> indeed!
<huats> :)
<itnet7> I think it's a great action!
<itnet7> and really should have went without saying!
<itnet7> :-)
<JanC> loco contacts can decide if something is not useful for their team maybe, but all important info should be forwarded
<popey> yeah, thats trickey, deciding what's important
<popey> I propose that we add that to the wiki, then announce it on loco-contacts.
<nizarus> JanC, I'm a loco contact and that's what I'm doing
<czajkowski> you could also encourage your loco team members to join the list.
<popey> huats / czajkowski / itnet7 / keffie_jayx / JanC - +1 or -1 on the change?
<czajkowski> +1
<itnet7> +1
<JanC> +1
<huats> +1
<keffie_jayx> +1
<popey> \o/
<keffie_jayx> excellent
<czajkowski> lovely jubbly
<popey> Next we have "Introducing new members"...
<popey> czajkowski / huats / itnet7 - Welcome again - want to give us one line about yourself for the minutes?
<huats> (it might be better for me to get it last)
<czajkowski> Aloha, I'm laura, based in Dublin Ireland and looking forward to getting involved in the loco council and helping where I can
<popey> \o/ czajkowski
 * itnet7 is team contact for FloridaTeam and glad to be here!!!
<popey> \o/ itnet7
<itnet7> :-)
<huats> OK so, I am Christophe, a french little guy and I am really really hapy to be amongst you all :)
<popey> you are _so_ not little!
<huats> (even jono ;))
<czajkowski> hardly little
<popey> \o/ huats
<itnet7> lol ;-P
<czajkowski> ^5 itnet7 huats  :)
<popey> I'm working on getting you guys on the mailing list
<huats> thanks popey
<keffie_jayx> he is the one from the 5000-attendee parties organized by the frech teams
<popey> sorry it's not happened already
<jono> hey huats
<popey> keffie_jayx: you mean 20,000 attendees!
<popey> (that number increases every time I see it)
<keffie_jayx> popey:  right right 5000 is only in his home bash
<huats> popey, ;)
<popey> Ok, next keffie_jayx you have "Reproval process progress" on the agenda..
<keffie_jayx> right...
<huats> keffie_jayx, actually my hometown party is this weekend but it won't be that big :)
<czajkowski> huats: only 500 :)
<hollman> Hello all
<huats> czajkowski, that is the aim :)
<keffie_jayx> so as we know, we have been working on getting a reapproval process in the life of LoCo Teams to learn more from you and offer assessment
<keffie_jayx> we declared some actions at the meet up at UDS
<czajkowski> yes I've the action of writing this up :)
<keffie_jayx> it is sane to seewere we stand with regards the reaproval process.
<popey> ok
<popey> I just grabbed the list out of gobby and pasted onto the wiki..
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/ProposedTeamApprovalList
<popey> I haven't checked the sanity of that list (my action - will do asap)
<JanC> shit, we're on top  ;)
<itnet7> JanC: we're not far below you
<popey> JanC: no editing of the wiki and moving yourself!
<popey> :)
<nizarus> tunisian team is missing
<popey> nizarus: no, it's not
<huats> JanC, and we are not on the list :(
<popey> nizarus: it's the _re_ approval list
<keffie_jayx> nizarus: many teams are missing ;)
<keffie_jayx> this is only 30
<keffie_jayx> out of 60 something
<JanC> nizarus: you were approved or reapproved not that long ago IIRC?
<nizarus> popey, i know we should be reapproved on july
<popey> not necessarily nizarus
<nizarus> JanC, we was approved on july 2008
<popey> teams will be reapproved when we get to them
<popey> it might not be july
<popey> but we'll let you know in advance :)
<nizarus> okay
<popey> ok, so keffie_jayx outstanding things are a) czajkowski documenting and b) me sanitising that list?
<czajkowski> yup
<keffie_jayx> no
<popey> oh?
<czajkowski> oh?
<keffie_jayx> also, make sure awareness of this process happnes
<popey> ok, but we can't do that till it's documented surely?
<czajkowski> well that'll surely happence once A is done and the mailed out ?
<keffie_jayx> exactly
<czajkowski> popey: great minds!
<popey> czajkowski: .. drink guinness
<czajkowski> I have sense ;)
<keffie_jayx> also decide on the schedules for each teams, would be nice
<keffie_jayx> makes sense?
<czajkowski> yup
<popey> ok so 1) document, 2) publicise 3) schedule, 4) ??  5) profit!
<czajkowski> 5) choclate :D white choclate and JanC is 1st on the list :p
<huats> czajkowski, 6) share that chocolate
<czajkowski> popey: keffie_jayx is this document started somwhere, or based on a document ?
<huats> :)
<czajkowski> huats: eh no :)
<popey> I don't know.. keffie_jayx ?
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski: it is only word of moth and some documentation is already available in gobby
<keffie_jayx> like the emailing process
<JanC> I'm happy to buy 1 kg of chocolate to share on FOSDEM  :P
<popey> Ok, I can work with czajkowski on that
<czajkowski> grand job
<keffie_jayx> also
<keffie_jayx> we agreed on doing this in meetings
<popey> doing what?
<popey> the re-approvals?
<keffie_jayx> oposed to emailing the reaproval proposals no?
<popey> we did?
<keffie_jayx> popey: I though we had decided that emailingwas not working, but then again I might have misheard
<popey> ah ok
<huats> keffie_jayx, don't you think it will be really long in meeting
<huats> from my understanding (at the previous UDS)
<popey> no, we decided to mail the teams 3 times
<JanC> I think in the past we agreeded that reapproval through mail if possible would make meetings shorter
<popey> to let them know they're up for approval
<popey> give them a month to reply/prepare and attend an online meeting
<keffie_jayx> popey: and they email the reapproval aplication and that is it?
<popey> if they don't turn up they get unapproved
<keffie_jayx> ok
<JanC> and teams could appeal during a public meeting if they don't agree with a decision
<popey> yup
<keffie_jayx> ok
<popey> during a meeting is what we agreed
<popey> the key thing is getting them to the meeting
<popey> we need to word the mails carefully
<popey> but firmly :)
<keffie_jayx> definetelly, sorry for making you lose time
<JanC> okay then
<huats> popey, I agree
<popey> no, it's fine, we all need to be on the same page
<popey> so as part of the documentation we can come up with a template mail
<popey> Dear $LOCO
<czajkowski> that'd make sense
<popey> Turn up or else.
<popey> Love Loco council!
<huats> but I think that if we just say the truth : a reapproval is not a blame but a normal process...
<popey> yup huats
<czajkowski> aye and point out, every loco at some point or another will go through this process
<popey> yup
<huats> popey, or your mail + asking for 1 kg of chocolate each :)
<popey> :)
<popey> I am easily bribed
<popey> just putting that out there
<popey> ok, so czajkowski and I will make a start on the documents, and run that past the mailing list okay?
<popey> (loco-council)
<popey> so everyone gets a chance to contribute
<popey> and we'll also pass it by jono/jorge to make sure we're not doing anything dumb
<czajkowski> heh smart move
<popey> is that all we need to say about reapproval for now?
<itnet7> does anyone think it would save time to look at the lists of re-approvals, and evaluate the teams by a loco council vote, on whether or not a team needs to do their re-approval in a meeting?
<czajkowski> when do we hope to start
<itnet7> and for those teams that are spot-on, we can do it through mail
<popey> itnet7: what, pre-re-approve them if they're obviously great?
<popey> I think it would be fairer if everyone had the same process
<itnet7> ah
<czajkowski> I think so to, make it the same across the board. For everyone loco to see
<itnet7> agreed
<popey> would be more open that way
<popey> any other re-approval comments?
<JanC> still, looking at & discussing their reapproval page beforehand might help meetings go faster
<keffie_jayx> it would be good to have a timeline for things to happen
<keffie_jayx> just to keep track.
<keffie_jayx> this things tend to take sooo longgg
<keffie_jayx> and emailing is not a nice tracker of time
<popey> well we said 3 mails in a month, invite, if they dont turn up, unapprove
<czajkowski> aye we did agree on that at UDS
<keffie_jayx> but our roadmap to begin reaprovals should be nice
<JanC> popey: 3 in a month, how many approved locoteams are there ?
<keffie_jayx> I am being optimistic when I say we begin january next year
<popey> no JanC
<popey> 3 attempts to contact _one_ team in a month
<popey> no keffie_jayx
<JanC> ah, okay  âº
<popey> :)
<popey> but we could re-approve two (or more) in one meeting
<popey> it depends how prepared they are - and how good (or bad) they are
<JanC> we'd need to, otherwise reapproval of all teams will take 10 years  ;)
<popey> yeah, job for life :)
<popey> ok, shall we move on?
<JanC> k
<keffie_jayx> wait
<huats> keffie_jayx, we might each contact 1 team
<huats> by month
<huats> it will reduce the time...
<keffie_jayx> so no estimated time for reaprovals yet
<keffie_jayx> no estimated time for the actions popey and czajkowski have?
<keffie_jayx> sorry If I am pushy about this
<czajkowski> it shouldnt take long to document it, and then get some input and tweek it
<czajkowski> popey: ?
<popey> keffie_jayx: we dont have the documentation yet
<popey> its not promoted, no teams even know about this process
<keffie_jayx> this is key because if we have 30 teams to do in 6 months then time is not on our side
<popey> (except maybe belgium)
<keffie_jayx> popey:  right, is it safe to reduce the number of teams to reaprove for this cycle?
<popey> keffie_jayx: what expectations do you have?
<popey> keffie_jayx: no, I think it's good to have a target
<keffie_jayx> popey:  my expectations are keep it simple
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: I think we shoul d aim for the 30 and I'm hopeful we shall reach the target and if we fall short, then it's a learning curve for us as it's not been done before.
<popey> keffie_jayx: no, i meant your expectations of timescales
<keffie_jayx> popey:  I said january, it is a nice way to start
<keffie_jayx> it gives us a month to organize docs and promote the process
<czajkowski> keffie_jayx: do you think we can get documentation and awareness out in time?
<popey> sounds reasonable
<keffie_jayx> czajkowski:  yes. it is really up to us and the teams
<huats> sounds to me too
<keffie_jayx> and once you email a team contact three times, you know we mean business ;)
<czajkowski> okie dokie
<keffie_jayx> it is really up to us being constant
<popey> agreed
<popey> shall we move on?
<huats> ok for me
<czajkowski> sounds goo d
<popey> keffie_jayx / itnet7 / JanC ?
<keffie_jayx> sure
<JanC> +1 âº
<popey> "State of the LoCo Governance Docs"
<popey> keffie_jayx - another one of yours :)
<keffie_jayx> sure
<keffie_jayx> LoCo Docs are probably the best pieces of docs on the Ubuntu wiki. but I think there are other general aspects that need to be documented
<keffie_jayx> for instance. the LoCo Concil and its functions are not clearly detailed in the LoCoCouncil wiki page
<keffie_jayx> this leaves the people a bit confused about what we do
<keffie_jayx> and we do alot
<keffie_jayx> So I take the initiative to document our actions
<keffie_jayx> so that the community can have a better sense of what we do
<keffie_jayx> I speak of this particularly https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil
<keffie_jayx> also
<itnet7> popey: I agree sorry... work stuff
<itnet7> +1
<keffie_jayx> also our interaction with the LoCo Community should be documented
<popey> ok, I agree completely
<popey> what do you propose we do keffie_jayx ?
<keffie_jayx> I took the initiative to blog about LoCo Team Contact changes
<keffie_jayx> and we could make this a LoCo Council thing to do
<keffie_jayx> and not only LoCo Contact Changes
<keffie_jayx> once a new team is formed
<keffie_jayx> once a new team is approved
<keffie_jayx> onces a new team is reaproved
<huats> keffie_jayx, it makes high sense to me
<popey> ok
<keffie_jayx> so documenting a bit on this will make sure people that follow after us
<keffie_jayx> keep this little gestures of sympathy going long after we are gone
<keffie_jayx> also there is a leadership code of conduct that we should make reference of in our docs
<JanC> right
<keffie_jayx> the LoCo Docs do not make reference to that and it would be healthy to add it
<keffie_jayx> makes sense?
<popey> yes
<JanC> certainly
<keffie_jayx> I can drive this documentation and open it up for coments
<popey> That would rock
<itnet7> sounds good keffie_jayx !
<czajkowski> lovely
<popey> it would also help the newbies :)
<czajkowski> grin
<czajkowski> any help is welcomed
<keffie_jayx> ok
<popey> keffie_jayx: you going to co-ordinate that on the mailing list?
<keffie_jayx> I am done the, I will report via email my rpgress
<popey> excellent stuff
<keffie_jayx> yes, email and wiki on the Lucid Roadmap
<popey> ok
<popey> next up is nizarus
<nizarus> ÙÙØ§ /o\
<popey> :)
<nizarus> hi
<czajkowski> aloha
<nizarus> so I'm from the tunisian LoCo Team
<popey> nizarus: you were asking about setting up a legal entity to promote Ubuntu in Tunisia right?
<nizarus> and we was approved on July 2008 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda/20080722
<nizarus> yes popey
<popey> ok, there was a reply from the cc, but I now see that you didn't see that..
<popey> one moment.
<nizarus> popey, haven't recieved it
<popey> This is the reply from Mark Shuttleworth..
<popey> "I agree with the sentiment that a legal entity is only appropriate in the most exceptional cases. Of course Canonical can't stop anyone from forming a legal entity: if you want to do that, and you have the required resources and competence, then go ahead. You would need a trademark agreement to call it an Ubuntu entity, but that can be granted using the template you have."
<popey> "The most important thing to think about is how to wind down such an entity. Keeping a legal vehicle alive is a lot of work. It's a bit like a puppy - everyone wants one, not everyone is good at looking after the dog it grows into! Think carefully about it - there are real legal consequences for not responding to paperwork and administration in most countries if you are responsible for a legal entity, and Canonical cannot help."
<nizarus> popey, we know the consequences and we are ready to do it
<JanC> http://verein.ubuntu-de.org/files/agreement.pdf --> is an example of the agreement with Canonical you'll need to sign
<nizarus> JanC, I got your document
<JanC> (might be different but something like that)
<huats> this is the document we (ubuntu-fr) have signed
<JanC> maybe huats knows if the French agreement is on-line too
<nizarus> since 2 monthes i contacted canonical for trademak agreement
<nizarus> but no response
<huats> JanC, actually it is not online afaik
<nizarus> that's why i'm here
<huats> but it was the same that was signed with ubuntu-fr
<huats> (they both have been signed at the same time)
<popey> nizarus: sadly the loco council cannot do anything about the responsiveness of the canonical trademark team
<sshd> hi
<nizarus> popey, I see, but if there is any tips
<nizarus> :/
<czajkowski> nizarus: tips on ?
<nizarus> how to contact canonical and got fast response :)
<popey> be patient and polite, thats my tip :)
<JanC> maybe if we put what sabdfl said on the wiki so that you can reference it, that might make sense
<nizarus> popey, patient for more 2 monthes ?
<popey> nizarus: when did you last mail them?
<popey> I believe the trademark 'team' is quite small
<popey> and ubuntu is "quite big"
<nizarus> popey, I used the trademark contact form since 2 mothes
<czajkowski> and ~i'm sure it gets a lot queries
<JanC> maybe we can ask Canonical how long people should expect to wait?
<popey> nizarus: I would contact them again
<popey> nizarus: simply ask for an update
<nizarus> and i got a confirmation with an information that i will have a response in 48 hours
<czajkowski> nizarus: as popey pointed out, there is nothing we can do about the responose of canonical. Perhaps mail asking for an update to the situation
<JanC> and ask what details peopel should include in their mail to avoid losing time?
<huats> nizarus, I have contacted the trademark team a few time
<huats> and I have waited about 2 months already
<ScottK> nizarus: I'd suggest reviewing the bugs here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community and filing one if you think it's needed.
<nizarus> huats, you have a direct mail ?
<huats> nope
<nizarus> :/
<huats> I have used the form too
<popey> i emailed them directly
<nizarus> popey, which adresse
<popey> trademarks @ ubuntu dot com
<nizarus> thank's popey
<popey> when I asked, I got a reply same day :S
<popey> that was over a year ago though
<popey> things have changed since then
<nizarus> I will resent my mail and cc you
<popey> no need to cc me
<popey> there's nothing the loco council (or I) can do about canonical trademark issues
<popey> ok, we're over time
<nizarus> ok
<popey> jcastro...?
<nizarus> thx all
<huats> no pb nizarus
<jcastro> yep
<popey> "LoCo Week and LoCo Doc Day"
<jcastro> popey, so basically
<popey> is it quick?
<jcastro> I have no time to do this this cycle
<jcastro> and was wondering if we still want to do this
<jcastro> and if anyone is interested in driving?
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  I am
<czajkowski> jcastro: I'm not familiar with it ?
<popey> can you mail the loco council about it?
<popey> as we're already over time
<jcastro> yep
<huats> jcastro, same than czajkowski I don't know the idea
<jcastro> no worries
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  there hasn't been a LoCo week ever, so this would be a first time
<jcastro> right
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  LoCo Docs there was one in the Jaunty cycle
<jcastro> it's one of those "been sitting on the backburner" ideas
<jcastro> yeah
<keffie_jayx> which was about a year ago
<jcastro> I will send mails so I don't take up anymore time!
<popey> jcastro: as czajkowski / huats / itnet7  aren't on the loco-council mailing list *hint* *hint* can you To: them too please
<itnet7> :-P
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  I am interested in docs day, since one of my previous items was based on that
<czajkowski> jcastro: thanks
<popey> yeah, could be very helpful for that keffie_jayx
<jcastro> popey, yeah
<keffie_jayx> jcastro:  I think the LoCo Council needs to have clear what a LoCo Week is
<jcastro> yeah
<popey> can we take it to the mailing list
<popey> tick tock
<keffie_jayx> or what the horsemen
<keffie_jayx> think
<keffie_jayx> right right out of time
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<keffie_jayx> thanks
<jcastro> \o/
<keffie_jayx> great meeting
<popey> woah.. hang on
<czajkowski> oh
<popey> we're over time and we have a team approval
<czajkowski> popey: is there another meeting on now ?
<huats> pfff it is my first ubuntu meeting that is almost on time :)
<popey> drakulavich and sshd are here
<popey> no czajkowski
<czajkowski> I cna stay
<yltsrc> yltsrc too
<czajkowski> can others?
<huats> I can stay too
<czajkowski> itnet7: keffie_jayx huats JanC ?
<JanC> no problem for me
<keffie_jayx> I can stay
<czajkowski> popey: ?
<popey> ok
<czajkowski> not to leave you out
<czajkowski> ;)
<popey> 30 mins past is the deadline
<popey> so we have 20 mins
<itnet7> I can stay
<czajkowski> grand lets shoot
<keffie_jayx> let's do it
<popey> ok .. before we start
<popey> it's probably best that one person leads this process, we don't want to have loads of questions bombarding the Belarus guys and gals..
<popey> volunteer?
 * czajkowski sits back and watches this time
<popey> ok, keffie_jayx ?
<huats> popey, may be an experience people might be better
<keffie_jayx> me
<huats> ..
<popey> great!
<keffie_jayx> alright
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BelarusTeam
<keffie_jayx> Anyone here from the Belarus Team?
<yltsrc> yes :)
<drakulavich> me too
<sshd> and me )
<keffie_jayx> great :D
<keffie_jayx> do you have an approval aplication
<keffie_jayx> ?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingApproved is the process by the way
<yltsrc> yes http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BelarusTeam/ApprovalApplication
<keffie_jayx> ok
<keffie_jayx> you have been doing release parties for how long?
<develop7> me too
<yltsrc> we have release parties till 8.10 release
<yltsrc> * since :)
<sshd> we have some release party
<keffie_jayx> and it read that you have been participating with other lugs from the regions, can you describe further your itneraction with other teams in belarus
<sshd> 8.04, 8.10, 9.04, 9.10
<keffie_jayx> any pictures :P
<sshd> keffie_jayx: in lvee, we connect with other lug from belarus
<sshd> keffie_jayx: lvee.org
<keffie_jayx> sshd:  what is your colaboration particularly
<drakulavich> http://picasaweb.google.com/antono.vasiljev/LVEE2008#
<JanC> LVEE sounds cool
<keffie_jayx> I ask about lug colaboration becasue your resource site make no reference about being a LoCo Team
<keffie_jayx> unless it is not your site, just a refrenece site from belarus?
<keffie_jayx> anyone?
<JanC> keffie_jayx means http://linux.by/
<czajkowski> yltsrc: drakulavich sshd ?
<keffie_jayx> ?
<yltsrc> we have not lug site, but we have separated forum on http://linux.by
<yltsrc> and http://ubuntu.ru
<keffie_jayx> that's what I thought
<yltsrc> because most of us russian-speaking and we provide support with russian team
<keffie_jayx> how many active members are there, and how many have secured Ubuntu membership?
<yltsrc> i am not sure, but all of us, who on http://launchpad.net/~belarus
<yltsrc> and maybe more
<keffie_jayx> yltsrc:  anyone seeking ubuntu membership that you know of?
<yltsrc> what do you mean?
<drakulavich> you mean ubuntu developers?
<popey> Ok. I am going to have to say -1 for now. I'd like to see a more comprehensive application, one which meets the criteria set out in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingApproved
<keffie_jayx> yltsrc:  ubuntu membership is for individuals that have contirbuted considerably to the Ubuntu Community. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<popey> It would be great if you could improve the application with more detail, reports and summaries of events before you come back to us for approval.
<keffie_jayx> I agree with popey
<czajkowski> I'm also going to say -1, and would like to see more Ubuntu participation evidence, but would love to see you come back in a few months.
<itnet7> -1, I do really like what you all have started though, and would like to encouarge you to tread on
<keffie_jayx> I think your team has strated the process of consolidating a team but you still need to make sure your team can be functional with it's own resources,
<yltsrc> i think we haven't any ubuntu member
<keffie_jayx> the work you have done n events seems fantastic
<huats> Sorry guys but my vote is also -1. I'd like to have more pics, and a clearer view of how you are exchanging on a daily basis
<itnet7> definitely, good work so far!
<huats> I do think you have done a good start so far
<keffie_jayx> yltsrc:  we hope to see you again in say 6 months time and we can evaluate your progress
<huats> you need to continue !
<drakulavich> thanx, guys. We'll be back :)
<huats> drakulavich, we count on that !
<keffie_jayx> keep it up belarus
<keffie_jayx> :D
<popey> sorry it ended up being so late for you guys!
<czajkowski> drakulavich: good to hear
<popey> ok, thats the end of our meeting
<itnet7> no problem, can't wait to see good things in the future for belarus!
<keffie_jayx> sorry for that too
<popey> thanks keffie_jayx / czajkowski / JanC / itnet7 / huats
<keffie_jayx> alrighty
<keffie_jayx> minutes by me
<itnet7> ty popey !
<keffie_jayx> ;)
<popey> thanks keffie_jayx
<popey> keffie_jayx: you got the log?
<czajkowski> lovely jubbly folks ;)
<keffie_jayx> drakulavich, sshd, yltsrc see you agian friends.. :D
<keffie_jayx> popey: yep
<yltsrc> thanks, we'll be back :)
<huats> thanks guys !
<huats> that was a great first meeting :)
<keffie_jayx> awesome
<keffie_jayx> new council members rock
<keffie_jayx> now
<keffie_jayx> next meeting after the holidaysright
<keffie_jayx> I suggest Europe friendly time
 * popey goes to beg for forgiveness from his wife
<czajkowski> popey: bring ice cream
<popey> this time suits me fine, any time from 20:00 UTC onwards
<keffie_jayx> popey:  good luck my friend, hope you don't end up in the couch tonight
<popey> czajkowski: i just had some :)
<popey> haha
<popey> o/
<czajkowski> popey: for your wife!
<huats> it is good for me too
<czajkowski> suits me grand
<huats> the ONLY thing that might bother me is that the baby is expected at the end of january...so who knows...
<huats> but I will let you know of course :)
<czajkowski> huats: congrats !
<huats> :)
<huats> thanks czajkowski
<czajkowski> huats: do you know if it's a girl or boy yet?
<huats> czajkowski,  a little boy...
<huats> so that I can train him to be a good rugby player
<huats> ;)
<huats> czajkowski, because I have seen your nice msg on facebook last week after the all blacks game ;)
<czajkowski> heheh
<czajkowski> #;d
<czajkowski> yes
<czajkowski> you did *ahem* get punished
<czajkowski> however I had dan cater and chabal on the pitch, I was happy
<huats> :)
<huats> I haven't seen the game yet
<huats> it was the night of the Ubuntu Party in Paris
<huats> so I have taped it
<huats> I think I'll have a look next week
<czajkowski> do Ireland wasn't beaten once in 2009 :D
<huats> czajkowski,  :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-03
<dpm> hi everyone
<dpm> anyone here for the translations meeting?
<dholbach> dpm: isn't that in an hour? :)
<dpm> dholbach, it's 15:00 UTC, but we don't seem to have many translations people today...
<dpm> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<dholbach> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar says 16 utc
<czajkowski> the fridge calender seems to be acting up
<dpm> I'll check again, otherwise I'll have another go in an hour :)
<dpm> ah well...
<dpm> right, second try, this time at the right time
<dpm> hi all
<popey> :)
<dpm> let's see if we've got any translations people here today
<janpogocki> hello :)
<janpogocki> i translated ubuntu 9.04 and 9.10, but very little
<dpm> hi janpogocki
<janpogocki> to polish of course ;)
<dpm> welcome
<adiroiban> sorry. I'm late
<dpm> no worries adiroiban, we don't seem to have many l10n folks today
<adiroiban> maybe we can have the meetings on #ubuntu-translators
<dpm> I'm not sure this would change things, though
<janpogocki> but what about is this meeting 'ubuntu translations'?
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> anyway, shall we get started?
<adiroiban> i'm ready
<janpogocki> ok
<dpm> janpogocki, the Ubuntu translations team has monthly meetings -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings
<dpm> janpogocki, here's the agenda for today -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings/2009-12-03
<janpogocki> ok, i'm going to reading that (or I gonna ;)
<dpm> anyway, let's get started :)
<dpm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:11. The chair is dpm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dpm> [TOPIC] Review of actions from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of actions from previous meeting
<janpogocki> i wasn't month ago :(
<dpm> basically we'd like to see how are we doing in terms of the actions we talked about on the previous meeting
<dpm> janpogocki, don't worry
<dpm> :-)
<dpm> Contact the QA team to check out the wording and the procedure description for reporting translation bugs (dpm)
<dpm> I did contact the QA team, but I haven't received much feedback on that section. Today I was talking to some of them on #ubuntu-bugs, and I've changed some things
<dpm> after their comments
<dpm> but it basically is the content adiroiban already put in there -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Filing%20translation%20bugs
<adiroiban> ok. I think we can fix the text on the go
<dpm> So I think we should be good to go there
<adiroiban> as we feel the need
<dpm> adiroiban, the next action was for you "Create a HandlingBugs wiki page (adiroiban)", and I know you've created that already and done some great work on it
<adiroiban> then ... checked :)
<dpm> :-)
<adiroiban> well I'm not happy with with HandlingBugs
<dpm> in which sense?
<adiroiban> I still need to do more work on handling bugs and then write some best practices
<adiroiban> but we have the page... and we can update it
<dpm> adiroiban, yes, I see. But basically I think we are on a good start. We can ask questions at #ubuntu-bugs regarding the workflow and practices
<dpm> today being Translations Hug Day
<dpm> anyway, the next action was on me: "Investigate how adding the Ubuntu Translations project RSS feed to Planet Ubuntu can be done - just adding the feed to the planet's config file?"
<adiroiban> ok. we can continue with the next topic
<dpm> I haven't had the chance to look into that yet
<dpm> but I'll try to do it this week
<adiroiban> np
<dpm> ok, next, then...
<dpm> [TOPIC] Review of pending actions on the switch to restricted permission policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of pending actions on the switch to restricted permission policy
<dpm> Now that the switch to restricted has been done
<dpm> I'd like to check all additional steps
<dpm> are documented and done
<dpm> to announce it
<dpm> It's basically https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators/OngoingProjects/SwitchToRestricted#Actions
<adiroiban> I tried to improve the way Launchpad inform translators about current permission bug 490929
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 490929 in rosetta "Inform users that have not licensed their translations under BSD the reason why the can not translate specific templates" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/490929
<adiroiban> this can help in explaining translators why they can not translate in languages without a translation team
<dpm> adiroiban, oh I see, you mean we could reuse your explanation for that
<adiroiban> nope.
<adiroiban> just that those changes can help if someone is "lost in translation" and don't know why they can no longer tranlate into their language
<dpm> I see - so implementing that feature would also help informing translators without a team in ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> that's what I hope :)
<dpm> :-)
<janpogocki> but i was translating ubuntu without any team, so where's problem?
<dpm> adiroiban, do you want to add a comment regarding this under "Discuss what to do with existing translations of languages without a team."?
<dpm> janpogocki, that's not a problem at all
<janpogocki> so what?
<dpm> only that if you are not a member of a team you can provide suggestions
<dpm> and translation team members will then accept them
<janpogocki> aha, i remeber
<dpm> what we are discussing right now is a recent change in policy
<janpogocki> tomasz dominikowski accepted my suggestions
<adiroiban> dpm: don't know what to say :(
<dpm> where previously some translators without a registered team for their language
<dpm> col
<dpm> could add translations directly
<adiroiban> first, I would like to see a list of languages ... and how many new translations we have for each language in Ubuntu
<dpm> janpogocki, this doesn't affect Polish, which has already a registered team
<adiroiban> if there are many new translations for a langauge... maybe we would like to find a team, before changing all of them to suggestions
<adiroiban> we still have ubuntu-l10n teams with open permissions....
<janpogocki> it's about for example afrikaans? ;)
<adiroiban> and for me this is like not having a reviewer team at all
<janpogocki> and other languages which hasn't got teams?
<dpm> adiroiban, yeah, but open teams are a separate issue. We can concentrate on those when doing the work on policies in this cycle, for example
<dpm> But I like your suggestions on the steps of 1) finding out these languages
<adiroiban> dpm: i will leave those translations by now
<dpm> 2) assigning them to a team if it exists
<adiroiban> dpm: i can investigate on that... or ask one of rosetta admins to run a query on the db
<adiroiban> and provide us with a raw data
<adiroiban> and from that I can extract what we need
<adiroiban> dpm: one idea (just an idea) would be to create those teams
<dpm> adiroiban, do you want me to put an action for you on that? I can have a look into it as well
<dpm> (on investigating the languages)
<adiroiban> dpm: anything is ok :)
<adiroiban> don't know
<adiroiban> do as you think it is best
<adiroiban> add me on that task
<dpm> ok, thanks adiroiban
<adiroiban> I will create the query and then just ask rosetta admin to run on the ubuntu data
<dpm> [ACTION] Investigate on the teams affected by the switch to restricted (adiroiban)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Investigate on the teams affected by the switch to restricted (adiroiban)
<dpm> I think for now I'll announce the change first
<dpm> so looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators/OngoingProjects/SwitchToRestricted#Actions
<adiroiban> yes. just make sure the annoucement contains a note about contacting utc for addind missing teams
<dpm> I'll do, thanks for the pointer
<dpm> the next two pending items "Discuss what to do with existing translations of languages without a team. "
<dpm> and "Let the Launchpad Translations team know about the decision and work with them to put it in place. "
<dpm> we'll be discussing
<dpm> as a result of your investigation
<dpm> and the last one "Draft a ?policy on how teams can be added to the ubuntu-translators group. Provide relevant links in Launchpad to this document. "
<dpm> I will take care of while working on the set of Ubuntu Translators policies
<adiroiban> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+faq/611
<adiroiban> ?
<adiroiban> just a not
<adiroiban> note
<adiroiban> to update ... or delete that FAQ when the policy is in place
<dpm> good point, thanks
<adiroiban> ...and maybe other related faqs
<dpm> I think the FAQs we can keep
<dpm> it's just that if they refer to a policy
<dpm> we should include a link to the policy inside the FAQ
<dpm> anyway, was there anything else on this topic?
<adiroiban> hm.
<adiroiban> if you have time please look at bug 490929
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 490929 in rosetta "Inform users that have not licensed their translations under BSD the reason why the can not translate specific templates" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/490929
<adiroiban> and see if the wording / explanations are ok
<dpm> ok, I'll do that and give you some feedback
<dpm> I'm not sure I'll get on to it today, but tomorrow should be fine
<dpm> If that was all, I'll go quickly through the next topic
<adiroiban> dpm: no hurry... those changes will be merged only strating from monday
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> as the idea was to provide a summary on the translations discussion UDS for those folks interested but who couldn't attend
<dpm> but as it seems that all participants in this meeting were there, we can simply go quickly through it :)
<adiroiban> maybe you can send an email
<adiroiban> ... but with low priority
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> yeah :-)
<dpm> anyway, I started a page collecting all the actions and session notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Events/UDS/Lucid
<adiroiban> i like that wikipage listing all UDS actions
<dpm> great, I'm glad of that :)
<adiroiban> i think we should link it from the header
<adiroiban> it should be a busy page for us durring this cycle ;)
<dpm> oh yeah ;)
<dpm> My intention was to provide a summary of all sessions as well, but depending on time, I might just leave the session notes as they are and concentrate on the blueprints and specs
<adiroiban> i saw you are also updating the whiteboard of blueprints ... but it looks to my like redundant
<adiroiban> it i preffer keeping it on wiki
<adiroiban> by linking the blueprints to this wikipage
<dpm> yeah, I see some redundancy as well, but this cycle we are going to focus on blueprints and burn-down charts to track progress
<adiroiban> on wiki we have these nice "checked" icons :)
<adiroiban> I was thinking that it would be nice to have a page with all outstanding actions
<dpm> and makes one feel good when using them and ticking things off the list :-)
<adiroiban> not only with UDS...
<adiroiban> right now we have actions on bugtracker (task tag), in wiki and on blueprints
<dpm> I started doing that with the UTC team outstanding tasks -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators#Ongoing%20projects
<adiroiban> hm... so many pages
<dpm> On Lucid, though, I'd like to concentrate on the specs from UDS and we'll also be using the charts to track progress -> http://piware.de/workitems/community/lucid/report.html
<dpm> yeah, that should be a good topic for discussion on the ML or on the next meeting - decide on the way to track tasks
<dpm> but for today I think we should leave it here
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> or was there anything else?
<dpm> ok, so I think we can leave it here. As usual, thanks a lot adiroiban for your participation, and also to those listening :)
<dpm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:04.
<Technoviking> hello all
<Technoviking> any other FC folks here yet?
<jdong> hey guys
<Technoviking> hey jdong
<jdong> gimme 10 minutes to grab dinner and I'll be right back
<Technoviking> ok
<forestpiskie> 2 then :)
<bodhi_zazen> yep
<Technoviking> will have 3 in 10 minute, hopefully a forth will show
<jdong> ok, I'm back :)
<Technoviking> excellent
<Technoviking> still don't have a forth for a quorum
<bodhi_zazen> =(
<jdong> indeed we dont'
<jdong> haven't heard back from Matthew or Ryan yet
<Technoviking> We can talk and post the logs for any votes we need though
<jdong> indeed
<Technoviking> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:18. The chair is Technoviking.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<Technoviking> first item, Ryan got all the info he needed during UDS for the Forums software upgrade
<bodhi_zazen> w00t =)
<jdong> awesome
<Technoviking> I think he was going to put up a test environment soon, but he would have to speak aboout that
<Technoviking> 2. Possible T&E team ...Pastebin Proposal and Staff thread and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forestpixie/Sandbox
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you, this is sort of an old item now, but both forestpiskie and Ms_Angel_D are here =)
<jdong> *nods*
<Ms_Angel_D> Hello
<forestpiskie> o/
<bodhi_zazen> I would hope the T&E team can help sort out people needing support from the others and (hopefully) reduce "trolling" in the T&E section
<bodhi_zazen> At least we have a group of users willing to donate their time to do so =)
<jdong> ok, so to clarify, the use case would be someone who, say,  tried Ubuntu, their wireless card doesn't work, post a 1 page tirade in T&E and it errupts in a flame war, right?
<Ms_Angel_D> I don't know if I'm out of line in speaking but yes that is normally the case, we are hoping to cut down on such things
<jdong> you are absolutely welcome to speak on this matter!
<jdong> I don't think I have any fundamental objections to the motivation for creating a T&E team
<bodhi_zazen> +1 jdong
<Technoviking> My first question would be, do people fell that the T&E forum is still needed
<jdong> the primary concern I'll express is whether or not angry users are going to respond positively to your valiant attempts
<Ms_Angel_D> It's our hope that through positive postings as well as use of the reporting such threads more quickly will help to reduce the occurnce of such threads
<Technoviking> It is an artifact of when Ubuntu was growing
<forestpiskie> I would prefer to think that we can help redirect those actually wanting help to the proper place before it gets completely out of hand
<jdong> I think when people post something negative in T&E instead of a frustrated ask for help in general support, it typically implies that they are not really interested in fixing anymore
<forestpiskie> those just wanting to complain are going to do so anyway
<jdong> have you guys been informally trying to conduct the job of the T&E team, and if so, is it successful?
<bodhi_zazen> yes, they have an IRC channel, #ubuntu-testimonials
<bodhi_zazen> as far as success Ms_Angel_D or forestpiskie  , any thoughts ?
<Ms_Angel_D> Well we have been activily participating on the forums in an attempt to sway negative posts as well as activly reporting.
<forestpiskie> some I think
<Ms_Angel_D> I would say since the inception of the first disucssion T&E has calmed down quite a bit
<forestpiskie> though it is hard to tell as it is rather cyclical
<Ms_Angel_D> I personally don't notice half as many 10+ page threads as there once were
<jdong> I'm not very familiar with the #ubuntu-testimonials members -- what is the relationship between #ubuntu-testimonials and what is on the ForumCouncilAgenda? Does #u-t cover the entire Ubuntu community or just the T&E forum on UF?
<bodhi_zazen> I am willing to give it a chance and see if it can reduce the 10 + page ranting , rude responses, and actually redirect frustrated users to receive support
<bodhi_zazen> just the T&E forum on the UF
<jdong> and logistically and administratively, what would be required from the forums? Would the team require administrative powers within the T&E section?
<jdong> stickying posts? locking threads?
<bodhi_zazen> I do not think so jdong
<forestpiskie> nope - just we wanted to bring it here before it went any further
<bodhi_zazen> if they need things, forestpiskie can assist
<Ms_Angel_D> I wouldn't even go that far I would just solid moderator backing would be find
<Ms_Angel_D> *say
<jdong> gotcha
<Ms_Angel_D> *fine...lol typos
<jdong> as bodhi_zazen said, I support the effort of the T&E team and am willing to give it a shot -- but I'd like a progress update of some sort in "the near future"
<jdong> whatever is an appropriate timescale for "future"
<Technoviking> jdong: +1
<forestpiskie> before 10.04 perhaps
<forestpiskie> that is before the next cycle begins :)
<jdong> anytime you guys need to get back in touch with us if there's some way we can help, don't hesitate to place yourselves back on the agenda or mail the FC list,e tc
<bodhi_zazen> how about if forestpiskie gives an update in a month ?
<Ms_Angel_D> That should allow for plenty of time to see the effects
<jdong> bodhi_zazen: +1. Even a "Yeah it's going well, progress is slow" is entirely fine, you guys don't have to solve all the world's problems in the next 6 months ;-)
<forestpiskie> jdong: ok - fine by me
<Ms_Angel_D> Thanks guys
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you Ms_Angel_D
<Technoviking> next item then?
<Ms_Angel_D> My pleasure bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: next item is kind of a done deal
<bodhi_zazen> I closed the 64 bit forums and to my surprise there were minimal complaints =)
<bodhi_zazen> perhaps archive the 64 bit section ?
<bodhi_zazen> but I assume that is up to UG
<jdong> when was it closed?
<forestpiskie> I did see someone ask for a sticky to be moved from there
<bodhi_zazen> Mid November jdong , Nov 17th
<jdong> I think let's leave it there and inactive for at least a month or two...
<jdong> at least give infrequent visitors a chance to react to it before it going *poof*
<Technoviking> +1 for moving any important sticky
<bodhi_zazen> Can users not see archived forums ?
<Joeb454> forestpiskie: was it the flash & java guide that was in there?
<forestpiskie> I think they can bodhi_zazen - I could
<Technoviking> they can
<jdong> it's just in a different place AFAIUI
<bodhi_zazen> OK, thanks
<forestpiskie> Joeb454: I think it was the flash one - at least it was oine of the 2 that had recent movement
<jdong> ok, I don't think theres' gonna be anything controversial about the wrapup phase of closing 64-bit...
<jdong> the remaining item on the agenda catches my eyes a lot more
<bodhi_zazen> As far as I know the closure went very smooth, I received only 2 comments, 1 was a complaint, the other was a comment to move stickies
<Technoviking> the flash problem maybe gone on Dec 8th
<Joeb454> Technoviking: oh? howcome?
<Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: some people want a forum for every thing:)
<Joeb454> actually, probably best stick to the topic :)
<bodhi_zazen> Indeed Technoviking
<Technoviking> Joeb454: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1343694
<Joeb454> thanks
<Technoviking> any ccomment abot the Closure of the 64 bit forum?
<jdong> Not from me
<jdong> other than job well done :)
<Technoviking> jdong: agreed, well done
<Technoviking> next item
<Technoviking> Make a video driver forum. See thread
<Technoviking> is TormodVolden
<Technoviking> is TormodVolden here?
<Technoviking> Thread: TormodVolden
<Technoviking> Thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1311004
<Technoviking> that was covered last meeting also
<Technoviking> whoops, time to clean the wiki
<jdong> ok I guess I need to read the scrollback last meeting
<jdong> oh wow
<jdong> am I developing short term amnesia? :)
<jdong> I'm definitely -1 on the idea of a new subforum for video drivers
<bodhi_zazen> We already have Mulitmedia & Video =)
<Technoviking> -1 from me also
<jdong> but I do think right now it's not patently obvious where to place "X wont' start" kind of questions
<bodhi_zazen> so I do not see a need for an additional forum
<jdong> multimedia & video is the closest by long description
<jdong> but perhaps the name of t hat subforum can be revised to make it more obvious
<Technoviking> I think General Help is the best place
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<jdong> the thing is, either place it's put in I think ti'll receive plenty of attention
<jdong> that the whole point of not segregating into so many subforums
<bodhi_zazen> Failures of X are getting less frequent, but when they occur it is most often hardware dependent
<jdong> pedantic categorization doesn't really help answer such questions any faster IMO
<bodhi_zazen> IMO
<Technoviking> Anything else?
<jdong> I don't think so
<bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu 10.04 FTW !!!
<jdong> T&E should be propagated to the fc mailing list for a vote
<Technoviking> ok, I updated the wiki, the next meeting will be jan 7th, same bat time, same bat chanel
<jdong> and I'd expect us to be in agreement regarding the video driver subforum too
<bodhi_zazen> http://sites.google.com/site/fishbulb1022/lucidlynx
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://sites.google.com/site/fishbulb1022/lucidlynx
<bodhi_zazen> Thanks Technoviking and jdong
<Technoviking> Does someone want to compose the mail to the FC? I will do the monthly report
<forestpiskie> thanks people :)
<Technoviking> thanks all
<jdong> I've unfortunately got to run to another meeting now
<jdong> urgh I hate end of term at MIT
<Technoviking> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:56.
<bodhi_zazen> I can do the e-mail
<Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: thanks
<bodhi_zazen> NP
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: now that the meeting is over, we could have discussed secretarial position / monthly report =)
<Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: doh
<bodhi_zazen> I will add it to the mailing
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-04
 * slangasek waves
 * marjo waves
<ScottK> o/
 * apw fades in
<kane_> \\o o// \o/
 * pgraner 0/
 * asac waves
<pitti> o/
<mdz> \o
 * ogra lurks
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> hey slangasek
<slangasek> so as I mentioned in the email w/ the agenda, this meeting should be fairly focused on 1) specs that need to be discussed with the team as a whole for any reason, and 2) making sure we're on track for alpha-1, which is sneaking up on us next week
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<marjo> * Reminder: If you change the name or URL of your daily builds and you don't
<marjo> file a bug against the ubuntu-qa-website to fix the ISO tracker, your build
<marjo> won't appear properly in the ISO tracker.
<marjo> * Hardware testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo>     passed:   8 (62%)	failed:   1 ( 7%)	untested: 4 (31%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo>     passed:   21 (78%)	failed:   2  ( 7%)	untested: 4  (15%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo>     passed:   22 (42%)	failed:   0  ( 0%)	untested: 31 (58%)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>     passed:   12 (100%)	failed:   0  (  0%)	untested: 0  (  0%)
<marjo> Failures under investigation.
<mdz> wow, lots of testing has happened since the last report I saw, that's great
<mdz> I guess we got better ISOs
<marjo> mdz: yes, last minute results from fader
<marjo> fader: thx
<fader_> mdz: Yes, a lot more is testable now :)
<slangasek> marjo: have there been changes to daily build urls this cycle?  only the CD image team has access to change these...
<mdz> it's also fantastic to see test results flowing so early in the cycle, well done
<marjo> mdz: thx
<marjo> slangasek: we just want to make sure that the iso tracker has the right info in prep for next week
<marjo> testing
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> from the testing, there seems to be a slight problem with the bug-filing methodology
<mdz> are there any updates to the release manifest for lucid vs. karmic?
<cjwatson> the only bug filed is bug 491999, which is filed against an upstream product in such a way that no Ubuntu developer is subscribed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 491999 in xserver-xorg-driver-vesa "Lucid started in low-graphics mode" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/491999
<mdz> (has a release manifest been created?)
<cjwatson> I'll give it an appropriate Ubuntu task, but you might want to watch out for this in future
<slangasek> mdz: has not been created yet; I can make sure that gets done today.  We have at least one manifest change this cycle, unr -> une, but I'm not sure where we are in that process currently
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to create lucid release manifest
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to create lucid release manifest
<fader_> cjwatson: Sorry, I missed the product it was filed against; I'll try to look out for that going forward
 * cjwatson wonders if he offended moustafa somehow ...
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to check whether unr->une rename is ready to happen for alpha-1
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to check whether unr->une rename is ready to happen for alpha-1
<cjwatson> fader_: that's ok, just wanted to point it out
<fader_> cjwatson: Thanks!
<mdz> fader_, if you always use ubuntu-bug to file the bugs (which is best practice anyway), it avoids this problem
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-04
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-12-04
<slangasek> (oops, shoulda had that at the beginning of the meeting)
<fader_> mdz: Unfortunately the firewall in the lab does not currently allow this; I'll see if I can get that changed
<slangasek> marjo: is #
<slangasek> marjo: is lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests something we should still expect to land for alpha-1?
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-qa-checkbox-desktop-experience-tests
<marjo> Status: cr3 is working on integrating the dx team ppa and lifeless is
<marjo> progressing with the reporting piece
<marjo> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> ok; that will be in by Tuesday, so it's not going on during ISO prep?
<marjo> slangasek: pls explain
<mdz> marjo, he asked if it was landing for alpha 1; to do that it needs to be in by Tuesday
<mdz> it sounds like it's probably not ready
<marjo> AFAIK, it's independent of ISO prep
<slangasek> marjo: there's a milestone freeze in place from Tuesday until the milestone release.  checkbox is on the ISOs, so any checkbox uploads related to this should be happening before Tuesday
<cr3> if this refers to the blueprints scheduled for alpha-1, they only affect internal packages which don't need to be pushed to main
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> marjo: anything else on QA?
<cr3> slangasek: thanks for the heads up though, much appreciated!
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-integrate-regression-testing
<marjo> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-qa-checkbox-integrate-regression-testing
<marjo> Good progress
<marjo> * Write script to branch qa-regression-testing: DONE
<marjo> * Write script to parse QRT strings from regression suite: DONE
<marjo> * Write script to output checkbox test definitions: DONE
<marjo> * Add support for running suite scripts as root: DONE
<marjo> * Write script so that it can modify the sudoers file to run regression tests with sudo: DONE
<marjo> nice progress, so i thot i'd share it
<marjo> that's it for QA team
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<cr3> maybe I could push some of those changes to main for completeness purposes, but the dx testing will not depend on it though
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> pitti: hi
<pitti> This week we got spec drafting and review and work item creation to some 95%. Our release status page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus) has an overview about the changes we plan for lucid, as well as the
<pitti> usual bug status
<pitti> We did a lot of investigation and discussion around desktop startup speed and landed the first set of fixes.
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> We also prepared the X.org halsectomy, hoping that we can drop hal from the default installation in alpha-1. This should give us maximum testing for the udevification, as well as decrease boot time.
<pitti> One release radar bug which is in jeopardy for alpha-1 is bug 491162, but it doesn't affect a lot of people, so I don't consider it an alpha-1 breaker (moved to a2)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 491162 in gdm "gdm does not start X unless remove "tty-device-added KERNEL=tty7" from upstart gdm.conf" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/491162
<pitti> also of note is bug 491136 which breaks jockey completely (but no other pk consumers for some reason)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 491136 in policykit-1 "jockey-text does not run" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/491136
<pitti> but I hope to get that nailed today or Monday
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> looks good
 * pitti adds the jockey bug to the page, sorry
<slangasek> pitti: btw, have you seen my comments regarding seed pulling in 50MB of -dev packages (and making gnome-games uninstallable)?
<pitti> slangasek: uh, still? shouldn't happen for the CD any more
<slangasek> I followed up on the MIR bug, haven't noticed any further activity in getting that resolved
<pitti> I saw it for the dvd
<slangasek> oh, how was it fixed?
<pitti> those games were unseeded
<pitti> we don't want them in the default install anyway
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> agreed :)
<pitti> I'll double-check
<pitti> still needs resolution for the DVD, of course
<pitti> seed was fixed today
<pitti> (as in the package "seed", for the clutter stuff)
<slangasek> ok, so I'm just behind a day
<slangasek> anything else for desktop?
<pitti> -dev dependencies still need to be addressed; there was something weird about them shipping gir data, which should probably move to the lib themselves
<ogra> isnt "seed" also used by some webkit stuff ?
<pitti> not from me; any qeustions?
<pitti> ogra: correct, like epiphany
<slangasek> ogra: not anything that we have in main, though
<pitti> it's JS bindings for webkit
<ogra> ubiquity-slideshow ?
<pitti> that's in main, and seed wasn't in karmic
<ogra> k
<slangasek> (I still think the lot of seed should be kept out of main as long as possible, and that games written natively in JS can stay far away from the supported set, but.)
<ogra> i just thought i saw some deps there during armel researches
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX
<pitti> slangasek: WFM
<slangasek> anyone from DX team here?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile
<asac> hi
<slangasek> asac: hi
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> so on specs we have work items everywhere
<asac> and almost all are finished drafting/approval
<ogra> masses :)
<asac> hehe
<asac> another topic brought up is: imx51 buildlivefs commands in the crontab on antimony arent respected (ogra)
<ogra> right, i dont know why and would appreciate help of someone from ubuntu-cdimage here
<cjwatson> remind me after the meeting and I'll help
<ogra> as you know we separated the armel buildlive calls in the crontab entries in karmic
<ogra> thanks
<asac> action required?
<slangasek> [ACTION] ogra and cjwatson to debug imx51 buildlivefs problem on antimony
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra and cjwatson to debug imx51 buildlivefs problem on antimony
<ogra> ++
<asac> Reminder: armel/thumb2 build failure procedure: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2#How%20to%20deal%20with%20build%20failures
<asac> we will triage them and go through build failures on our own, but if you see stuff break after upload it would be great to use that tagging/subscription model
<slangasek> asac: I note that the RC bugs list on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid includes bugs that aren't targeted to lucid at all; please make sure that any bugs your team considers RC are targeted to release for tracking
<asac> slangasek: ack.
<asac> will ensure that in future
<asac> on bug front:
<asac> 319240: linux-fsl-imx51: kexec broken on imx51
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 helps if you want to fix your packages yourself
<asac> this is currently being worked on
<asac> it doesnt have an impact on alpha-1
<slangasek> ogra: is that something that warrants a brief announcement on ubuntu-devel or u-d-a?
<asac> 456659: linux-fsl-imx51: suspend/resume failure on imx51
<asac> same here
<ogra> slangasek, yeah
<asac> slangasek: it was announced to mobile. we should forward it
<slangasek> who can take an action for that?
<asac> me
<slangasek> [ACTION] asac to announce https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 to the broader developer community
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to announce https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 to the broader developer community
<asac> thx
<asac> i think thats it for this week
<asac> ogra: ?
<cjwatson> qt4-x11 fails to build on armel. ScottK brought this up in the foundations meeting as it blocks further work on KDE on armel. I took an action there to do some basic checking, and verified that -Wa,-mimplicit-it=thumb makes no difference (which was one theory)
<ogra> yup
<cjwatson> can I make this the mobile team's problem at this point?
<cjwatson> it's reproducible on jocote
<asac> cjwatson: is there a bug opened? we have it on our lists to address for sure.
<cjwatson> I didn't see a bug
<ScottK> There was one.  Let me find it.
<cjwatson> I started trying to get a stripped-down test case for a gcc bug, but ran out of time
<cjwatson> (the preprocessed source started out at 20000 lines or so)
<slangasek> [ACTION] ScottK to target qt4-x11/armel FTBFS bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to target qt4-x11/armel FTBFS bug
<ogra> NCommander usually cares for qt ... i was hoping it could wait until he's back from vacation ... if thats not the case i guess someone else in mobile has to take it
<cjwatson> somebody said ncommander had already thrown up his hands in horror. :)
<cjwatson> (iirc)
<ogra> heh
<slangasek> -
<slangasek> because it was an ICE, yes
<asac> its not blocking our images afaik. so i think it snot blocking alpha-1
<ogra> right
<ogra> but the KDE community
<cjwatson> you can construct a stripped-down compiler test case without significant gcc experience
<slangasek> so is there an action there for the mobile team this week?
<asac> i think not for this week. scott ensures its targetted
<asac> we will triage it etc.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else on mobile?
<asac> no
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks
<ttx> slangasek: yo
<ttx> OK, so our very empty release status report is up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> We mostly concentrated on meeting FeatureDefinitionFreeze deadline
<ttx> and sorting out which specs should be alpha2 milestoned
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Specs targeted to alpha2 are now all approved, I think... jib ?
<kane_> ttx: correct
<ttx> jib and kane are the same person.
<slangasek> oh :)
<ttx> The server daily started to be produced this morning
<kane_> work items all in place, and everything looks managable. Some external deps on IS/eucalyptus for UEC automated testing.
<ogra> schizophrenia !
<mdz> when does the test tracker get updated?
<slangasek> test tracker as in iso.qa.u.c?
<ttx> when an alpha1 candidate is nominated, I suppose
<slangasek> yes
<ttx> slangasek: planned for Tuesday ?
<mdz> (welcome kane[jib], this is his first release meeting)
<mdz> slangasek, yes
<slangasek> ttx: correct
<ttx> Not so much testing so far, nothing nominated or reported against lucid dailies
<hfhgfg> ne diyorsun
<mdz> ttx, has anyone tried the dailies yet?
<mdz> (I've got one in progress right now, but about all I can say is that it is able to start installing the base system)
<ttx> mdz: I didn't. I thought they would start to be generated next week
<ttx> and just discovered they were already up
<cjwatson> I have
<ttx> Colin to the rescue :)
<cjwatson> although I was testing with a modified eucalyptus
<cjwatson> initial smoke-test was fine apart from a glitch in kernel installation (bootloader installed too early), which I think I've fixed now
<mdz> cjwatson, for lucid+1, the server team will need to learn the art of crafting ISOs with a modified eucalyptus
<cjwatson> *I* don't bother crafting ISOs with a modified eucalyptus
<cjwatson> I inject it on the fly :)
<ttx> cjwatson: I could use that art for lucid+0
<mdz> cjwatson, whatever you do, they need to know how to do it also ;-)
<cjwatson> but I'm only working on eucalyptus-udeb, which is a lot easier
<mdz> the server installer prompts for a linux command line when installing grub
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, that's what I fixed
<cjwatson> TBH, just pointing you guys at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization is probably all you need
<mdz> ah, lovely
<cjwatson> it will be more than you need but it's probably not efficient for me to reiterate the necessary bits
<ttx> cool
<mdz> I'd like to script the lot of it sometime
<cjwatson> I've been meaning to do that since warty
<mdz> dwim.sh lucid-server-i386.iso eucalyptus_blar.changes
<cjwatson> (which means, realistically, that I'm never going to get round to it ...)
<mdz> I started on it once upon a time but never finished
<cjwatson> I think it's easier now that we (I think) don't worry about the Release.gpg signature on CDs
<ttx> mdz: would that task fit your new position ? :)
<cjwatson> it's in the image but I think you can just delete it and it will work
<mdz> ttx, only in that I might have free time once in a while ;-)
<cjwatson> used to be you had to sneak in a new key as well
 * mdz stops wandering on this tangent
<mdz> cjwatson, so apart from the kernel bit, the server daily didn't emit any smoke?
<slangasek> anything else on server?
<ttx> so obviously we'll do wider testing early next week, and formalize it as soon as we have a candidate on the test tracker
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> mdz: no, not that I tested it very hard
<ttx> I need to validate that eucalyptus is not too broken from 1.6.1 + java libraries upgrades
<ttx> sladen: nothing from my side
<cjwatson> I got past the first reboot then threw away the vm
<mdz> yes, iirc it wasn't tested substantially prior to upload
<mdz> (euca 1.6.1)
<slangasek> ttx: do we expect eucalyptus to be working for alpha-1, or is it a target of opportunity?
<mdz> slangasek, it is expected to work
<ttx> slangasek: if we are lucky, it might
<slangasek> ("target of opportunity" would seem to be consistent with our normal alpha milestone handling)
<ttx> slangasek: if it doesn't work, then it's a bug.
<slangasek> certainly
<mdz> it may be at 1.6.1 (current stable) if the latest snapshot isn't working yet
<slangasek> I'm asking whether I should expect people to be in panic mode next week if it doesn't :)
<mdz> that's the version which was uploaded this week
<mdz> (FWIW my server install completed and boots)
<mdz> update-motd seems to be busted
<mdz> nothing more from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<slangasek> mdz, ttx, kane[jib]: thanks
<slangasek> apw: hi
<apw> ..
<apw> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the URL below, including the items called out in the agenda.  AppArmor is currently not ready for Alpha-1, I am hoping to get updated bit before monday and get it uploaded.
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<apw> Blueprints: the majority of our blueprints are now approved and in most cases started.  Four are still waiting on approval, but we expect to have those complete shortly.   The first is basically complete, just waiting on actual approval.  The second needs buy-in from other teams.  The last two are investigative efforts and not likely to be producing any release items.
<apw> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<apw> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<apw> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<apw> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-devicetree-quirks
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-devicetree-quirks
<apw> The mainline 2.6.32 kernel has just released and we have just uploaded the Ubuntu kernel, so we should have that for Alpha-1.
<apw> ..
<slangasek> apw: who are you awaiting buy-in from on kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts ?
<apw> pgraner, there was tie in with other teams ... who was that
<apw> slangasek, i don't think there are any release dependancies right nwo for it
<apw> this cycle is policy only, and 'not doing things to break it', we won't have them till next cycle
<slangasek> fair enough
<apw> i'll add a section to the release status for these four and put something more formal down about them
<pgraner> slangasek: tie ins are with support, release mgt etc...
<slangasek> 355232, "unlikely to make alpha-1" - change the milestone then, if it shouldn't be a blocker?  (I guess it's importance: low anyway, hadn't caught that when preparing the agenda)
<apw> yep, if its not going to hit, i'll push it out, should know in a few hours
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else for kernel?
<apw> nothing from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> apw, pgraner: thanks
<pgraner> slangasek: np
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<jdstrand> not that much to report
<jdstrand> we've started a few things, and don't have any blockers
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> distro-wise security threat level: GREEN
<pitti> ?
<jdstrand> not from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> jdstrand: thanks
<cjwatson> So far we've mostly concentrated on getting blueprints finished, and to my knowledge we now have a more or less complete set of work items:
<slangasek> cjwatson: hello
<jdstrand> sure :)
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<cjwatson> The next thing to do here is to address the pile of unassigned work items (the bulk of these are just down to inadequate bookkeeping) and do some balancing across the team.
<cjwatson> For Alpha 1 we hope to have:
<cjwatson>  * working installers across the board (we've had more time than usual to prepare this time round, and it's looking reasonable)
<cjwatson>  * a decent start on the boot experience work (foundations-lucid-boot-experience; some ordering issues with the splash screen, but we have a plausible design)
<cjwatson>  * as much as possible of foundations-lucid-uec-installer-enhancement, which the server team will otherwise be blocked on
<cjwatson> We've also been making some progress on the underpinnings of forthcoming software-center work.
<cjwatson> I haven't caught up on bugs at all yet. If there's anything milestone-urgent, please shout ...
<cjwatson> (thanks to apw for wiki-status scripting)
<cjwatson> oh, and by my comment on bugs I mean that most of the alpha-1 bugs at this point seem to be opportunistic milestoning by developers, so I'm not worrying about them too much
<slangasek> there are a number of targeted bugs for foundations, but I suspect they need some gardening; nothing that looks to me like it would block the milestone prep
<cjwatson> right, bug gardening has been low on my list so far
<slangasek> 462169> probably gets re-milestoned, I can make the intended change for lucid but the SRU validation failed so I apparently still don't understand the real issue
<slangasek> anything else on foundations, then?
<slangasek> (houses, shops...)
<cjwatson> I had a question for DX but they don't seem to be here
<cjwatson> so nothing else from me at least
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<ScottK> The bug for the qt4-x11 related ICE on armel is Bug 490391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 490391 in gcc-4.4 "GCC internal error (unrecognizable insn ...) building qt4-x11 for Thumb-2 on armel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/490391
<ScottK> I was on a work telcon during desktop, so I also have a little Kubuntu news to report
<ScottK> For Kubuntu KDE SC 4.4 beta 1 was released today.
<cjwatson> ah, good, Dave Martin is way ahead of the request I made earlier
<ScottK> We are currently blocked on a needed patch for qt4-x11 (unrelated to armel).
<ScottK> The patch is being developed, but the developer is unfortunately priorizing exams over FOSS development
<ScottK> So it may be a bit before we have it.
<ScottK> I still expect to have the beta in for alpha 1, but it's getting a bit sporting.
<ScottK> For MOTU our only significant item right now is the spec to remove unbuildable binaries.
<ScottK> We have the rebuild results on ubuntuwire.com now and we just need to work through them to get a list of what to kill.
<ScottK> That's all I have
<slangasek> unbuildable binaries> ah, great!
<slangasek> anything else for MOTU?
<ScottK> Not unless there are questions.
<slangasek> (... what does that agenda item need to change to under archive reorg?)
<ScottK> cjwatson and I have some archive reorg stuff to do, but it doesn't affect the release
<ScottK> Let me look
<slangasek> ScottK: I just meant, if we're not going to have "MOTU" anymore, what do I put in the agenda :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: "MOTU", as agreed at UDS
<slangasek> oh, ok
<cjwatson> (or "Community development" if we really want I suppose but it's a bit wordy)
<ScottK> The work cjwatson and I have to do is to document this.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else we need to get out before alpha-1?
<cjwatson> does anyone know how well-gardened the DX specs are?
<ogra> working images :)
<cjwatson> I was a bit confused by some items in the dx-lucid-xsplash spec, and their timings
<ScottK> I know work is ongoing on at least some of them.
<slangasek> no idea here
<slangasek> robbiew: ^^ ?
<pitti> I still seem them being written, but I didn't really follow up on them yet, sorry
<ScottK> There was a binary incompatible kdelibs change needed for one of them and it hit KDE svn today
<pitti> "seen"
<cjwatson> specifically the requirement for a MIR of xsplash, which is already in main; and a MIR of plymouth *after* it's supposed to go into the default install
<robbiew> slangasek: dbarth is your best bet on that stuff
<robbiew> I know the specs are being attended to
<cjwatson> and the fact that it's milestoned for well after a foundations spec that depends on it
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> is there an action there, then?  Someone to follow up with dbarth about these timeline mismatches?
<pitti> will ask him
<cjwatson> thanks
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to check with dbarth about spec delivery timeline mismatches
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to check with dbarth about spec delivery timeline mismatches
<slangasek> pitti: thank you
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:11.
<slangasek> thanks, all
<ogra> thanks slangasek
<pitti> thanks all
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-05
<john316> how do i enable 2nd processor to be utilized
<john316> this is for ubuntu 9.1 karmic
<john316> the code to enable the second processor is what i need
<gord> john316: please see #ubuntu - this is not the place for support
<john316> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-06
<EsatYuce> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-06
 * skaet_ waves pedro_ charlie-tca 
 * charlie-tca waves back
<pedro_> hello
<skaet_> :)
<zul> hello
<vanhoof> morning skaet_
<skaet_> morning vanhoof,  zul
<zul> hi Sarvatt
<zul> damn skaet_
<cjwatson> hi
<zul> stupid tab completion
<skaet_> zul, ??
<skaet_> hi cjwatson
<skaet_> cool,  looks like quorum is foruming
<skaet_> lets get this started...
<skaet_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet_> To make the meetings be a bit more efficient, :) , would like us to follow the convention like some other teams are using ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.  Anyone object?
<skaet_> Agenda for today can be found at:
<skaet_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-12-06-SR
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> ok, giving folks a minute to look things up and raise hands, if they don't like the convention.
<skaet_> ;)
<skaet_> [TOPIC] pending action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  pending action items
<skaet_> any update on the pending action items?
<skaet_> sconklin - will the next date for SRU on the interlock hold?
<sconklin> no
<cjwatson> I don't have anything specific on bug 642555.  I'm due to meet up with Scott and James in person soon for some upstart planning, so will make sure it's brought up then.
<sconklin> We're in a hold until the kenels are pocket copied into the -proposed pocket
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 642555 in Ubuntu Lucid "Services not starting on boot in 10.04.1 LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/642555
<sconklin> kernels
<sconklin> I have a detailed report, can save it for the agenda item
<skaet_> cjwatson, thanks.  Will keep on agenda then.
<skaet_> sconklin,  sounds good.
<sconklin> ..
<skaet_> anyone else have any updates from the pending actions?
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> [TOPIC] Feature and Bugs Summary
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feature and Bugs Summary
<skaet_> just wante to point out there's now a +/- on each of the bugs, so we can start to see the trends across the releases in terms of bugs open.
<skaet_> This is just a prototype, and a bit more manual than I'd like, but is a staring point.
<victorp> sorry skaet_ but some of the actions should now be closed by default .. like when is the next SRU
<skaet_> victorp,  not necessarily, see comments from sconklin.   We'll get to that later though...
<skaet_> [TOPIC] Long term support plan
<MootBot> New Topic:  Long term support plan
<skaet_> s/plan/status/  sigh.
<skaet_> Kernel team upate?
<sconklin> no updates on the bug
<sconklin> ..
<skaet_> ok, thanks.
<skaet_> Any update on the foundation bugs, cjwatson?
<skaet_> ..
<cjwatson> I'm afraid I have nothing to report on the three foundations bugs on the agenda; I'll try to harass people into doing something in time for the next meeting.  Sorry about that.  The only one I think is actually critical for 10.04.2 is bug 607657.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607657 in base-installer (Ubuntu Lucid) "Lucid point release installer must support LTS backported Kernels" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607657
<cjwatson> (and I'll make sure we do something about that)
<skaet_> Thanks cjwatson.
<cjwatson> I do have several bugs that have seen no validation work and need it:
<cjwatson> bug 544139
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 544139 in consolekit (Ubuntu Lucid) "Active VT tracking can fail at startup" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/544139
<cjwatson> bug 563916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563916 in plymouth (Ubuntu Lucid) "[details.so] No prompt for [S]kip or [M]anual recovery on server boot (or without "splash")" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563916
<cjwatson> bug 603854
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 603854 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Lucid) "When installing onto fake raid grub still tried to install to /dev/sda" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/603854
<cjwatson> bug 569900
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 569900 in partman-base (Ubuntu Lucid) "partman sometimes creates partitions such that there is ambiguity between whether the superblock is on the disk device or the partition device" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/569900
<cjwatson> (erm, actually, I'm not sure that that last one has been uploaded, I'll look at that)
<skaet_> ;)
<cjwatson> also, there's a questionable validation result on bug 634554 which we need to look into
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 634554 in fuse (Ubuntu Lucid) "fuse mounts hang on xattr retrieval with auditd" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/634554
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet_> thanks, cjwatson, will add into the agenda for next time, so we're tracking.
<skaet_> anyone around for server?
<zul> yeah
<skaet_> :)
<zul> nothing new from us...we did a bunch of SRU testing this week it should be going to proposed this week
<skaet_> cool.  anything on the radar for 10.04.2 that I didn't catch on the agenda?
<zul> nope
<skaet_> thanks zul.
<skaet_> anyone around from desktop today?
 * skaet_ looks around
<skaet_> ... moving on then
<skaet_> [TOPIC] Stable Release Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Stable Release Update
<skaet_> sconklin, can you give an update as to what the outlook is?
<davidm> skaet_, hello sorry I'm late
<sconklin> The kernel team prepared new kernels for every supported
<sconklin> Ubuntu release. For the first time while using the new
<sconklin> stable release cadence, this update contains non-critical
<sconklin> security fixes.
<sconklin> Because the release contains security fixes, changes in the
<sconklin> build process have been implemented. These changes will
<sconklin> continue to be used for all stable kernel releases.
<sconklin> Stable kernels are now built in a non-virtualized PPA, so
<sconklin> that they can be built against the latest -security release
<sconklin> and released into both the -security pocket and -updates
<sconklin> pocket upon testing acceptance.
<sconklin> Because of the new process, uploaded kernels no longer
<sconklin> require acceptance by an Archive Admin, but once they are
<sconklin> built they require manual copying to the -proposed pocket
<sconklin> before the verification cycle can begin.
<sconklin> This is documented on the stable release cadence page here:
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence#Build PPA and process for pocket copying
<sconklin> Kernels for the current cycle were uploaded to the PPA
<sconklin> and builds had completed by Friday. On Friday the archive
<sconklin> admins were notified that there were kernels to be copied to
<sconklin> -proposed. The new process using the non-virtualized has
<sconklin> caused some discussion about the new process among
<sconklin> the stable kernel team, Martin Pitt, and Kees Cook. The technical
<sconklin> board has been copied on part of the thread.
<sconklin> Due to this discussion, they have not been pocket
<sconklin> copied to -proposed yet. Verification testing can not begin
<sconklin> until they are in -proposed, and verification is allocated
<sconklin> one week. Therefore, we will not have kernels ready for
<sconklin> certification and regression testing available on Dec 13th as
<sconklin> planned.
<sconklin> ..
<marjo_> sconklin: ack
<victorp> ack
<vanhoof> o/
<skaet_> are we good for the 14th SRU releases?
<sconklin> we were going to have our SRU release for the kernel on 12/16
<victorp> sconklin - any thoughts on how big will be the slip (days, week??)
<vanhoof> sconklin: question answered :)
<sconklin> No.
<sconklin> We require 7 days for verification testing, then a couple of days to respin the kernels after any reverts, then Victor starts testing
<vanhoof> sconklin: realistically does the month of december still look positive?
<vanhoof> (provided holidays, etc)
<sconklin> It's entirely dependent on the outcome of the current discussion between pitti, us, security, and the technical board
<marjo_> sconklin: ditto
<victorp> lets put it that way, if it is later than the 20th we can do it
<victorp> s/can/cant/
<sconklin> pitti is the only Archive admin who deals with kernels in the archive, and he is not satisfied that the new process is correct (is my understanding)
<sconklin> So we are in an indefinite hold until that is resolved.
<sconklin> ..
<victorp> ok
<cjwatson> actually other archive admins do deal with them, but I haven't been following the thread and in any case would want to satisfy pitti rather than overruling him
<victorp> just take into account that we are running into next year quickly
<cjwatson> (though pitti does do the bulk of kernel SRUing)
<skaet_> ack.   ok, we probably need to take an action here.
<sconklin> I'm not advocating overruling anyone, I want us all to be satisfied with the process. But the reality is that the other AAs defer to pitti to do anything having to do with the kernel
<cjwatson> in general, once an admin objects we would defer to that person on the grounds that they've taken ownership
<cjwatson> though I'm not sure that's written down anywhere :)
<sconklin> as he is the most knowledgeable about the kernel issues
<skaet_> we need to see if we can get through this blockage some how.  suggestions?
<victorp> I am a bit confused on where we stand , can someone summarise in 2 lines what happens next?
<sconklin> ..
<cjwatson> find pitti/kees and have a real-time discussion about it
<cjwatson> (I'd suggest - since e-mail seems to be plodding/stalled)
<sconklin> We can release 10-14 days after the kernels are copied to -proposed, depending on weekends, etc
<sconklin> cjwatson: agreed!
<sconklin> ..
<victorp> cjwatson sounds good
<skaet_> [ACTION] pitti, kees, sconklin - get together and propose adjustments process if needed, then broadcast new dates
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti, kees, sconklin - get together and propose adjustments process if needed, then broadcast new dates
<victorp> skaet - on that basis I propose to meet again this time next week
<sconklin> this may have been resolved easily if it had not occurred over a weekend
<apw> skaet_, i suggest you involve yourself in the meeting to understand the issues for next time
<skaet_> victorp,  if we don't have an email broadcast,  ok, lets meet again.
<skaet_> apw, I wasn't on the thread it appears.
<victorp> skaet_ we will still need to meet to understand the impact to the timing of whatever is agreed
<skaet_> apw, ack, would like to be
<skaet_> victorp, ok - will put this on calendar for this time next week, with this as only topic area
<victorp> skaet_ ack
<sconklin> I'll take the action to organize the meeting asap
<skaet_> [ACTION] skaet call meeting to discussing outcome of sconklin's meeting with pitti and kees.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet call meeting to discussing outcome of sconklin's meeting with pitti and kees.
<skaet_> thanks sconklin
<skaet_> ok,  I think we've got some actions, and next steps figured out,  so would like to see where we are on testing infrastructure.
<skaet_> victorp,  any updates?
<victorp> we were all set for the testing so
<victorp> we are planning to work on the infrastructure during the test sprint
<victorp> hapenning now
<victorp> (i.e this week)
<victorp> we would like to have by end of the week a test suite for both cert and regression
<skaet_> cool
<victorp> (marjo is sitting here with me and nodding his head)
<skaet_> thanks marjo, victorp
<marjo_> ack
<skaet_> victorp,  any chance we can use the spare slot now to do the runs on the alpha1 images and gets some summaries?
<victorp> that was in the plan anyway
<victorp> we might just have more time to do so
 * skaet_ knows its not SRU related, but doesn't like seeing those machines idle  ;)
<victorp> lets see what happens
<skaet_> victorp,  cool.   thanks.
<skaet_> victorp, marjo - should I add a summary of the testing sprint to the meeting next week from you both?
<marjo_> skaet_ good idea
<skaet_> ok,  will make sure its on the reduced agenda, and you can both summarize for your areas.
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> ok, lets go on to other SRU planning then for the week, in terms of what's happening on the development side.
<skaet_> sconklin,  any bugs/area
<skaet_> you'll be focusing on for this next week, we should be aware of?
<sconklin> we have been processing upstream stable updates and security CVEs, and have not had time to looking at any actual bugs that have been reported.
<sconklin> There are more CVEs being opened
<sconklin> So our work load will continue to be high for these
<sconklin> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/linux.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/linux.html
<sconklin> So, I don't anticipate having a lot of debug time from our team.
<sconklin> ..
<skaet_> sconklin,  ack.   ok, will be looking to see if the CVE's will impact the cycle.  next week then I guess.
<skaet_> cjwatson,  other than the bugs you highlighted above needing validation, anything else that the foundations team will be looking at?
<cjwatson> enabling the kernel backport is the main one, but OEM have been asking about bug 664115 too so we'll be sorting that out
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 664115 in parted (Ubuntu Maverick) "chroot loop devices stall for extremely long periods" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664115
<cjwatson> I don't think there's anything else terribly vital
<skaet_> cjwatson,  ok,  thanks!
<skaet_> zul,  any thing to be concerned about from the server side?   any progress on the aging SRU ones?
<zul> skaet_: nope we still have a couple need to be verified but no big deal i think
<skaet_> any progress likely on some of the very old ones? >100 days?
<zul> skaet: yes there was...i think for the openvpn one is to get a better testcase
<zul> which is a todo item for me this week i think
<skaet_> :)
<skaet_> ok,  thanks for the update zul.
<skaet_> any update on the SRU side from ARM team?   ogra?
<skaet_> any one here from the desktop team?
<skaet_> davidm,  do you have any SRU update issues from your team?
<skaet_> ..
<davidm> skaet_, no not at this time
<skaet_> thanks davidm.
<skaet_> vanhoof, any focus areas from the OEM side?
<skaet_> hmm..   am thinking that we're winding down on issues, and folks to talk about things, so probably time to end the meeting for this week.
<vanhoof> skaet_: sorry was looking elsewhere
<vanhoof> skaet_: from a HWE perspective, everything we have has been commited (all maverick right now)
<skaet_> lol, just in time
<vanhoof> its just a matter of SRU release
<vanhoof> ..
<skaet_> thanks vanhoof.   questions?
<skaet_> [TOPIC] any other comments/concerns/etc. to raise?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other comments/concerns/etc. to raise?
<vanhoof> skaet_: just need to follow up on the meetings happening regarding process
<vanhoof> skaet_: so nothing right this second
<skaet_> vanhoof,  ack.   You're not alone on that.
<skaet_> any one else?
<skaet_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:47.
<sconklin> skaet_: thanks!
<skaet_> Thanks sconklin, zul, vanhoof, marjo, victorp, cjwatson
<vanhoof> have a good one skaet_
<zul> np
<marjo_> skaet: thx!
<charlie-tca> Thank you, skaet_
<mdeslaur> kees, sbeattie, jdstrand, robbiew: meeting?
<jdstrand> hi
<sbeattie> hey
<robbiew> o/
<kees> hola
<kees> okay, well, I guess I'll start.
<mdeslaur> hehe...I was trying to remember what the mootbot commands were :P
<kees> been on vacation for 2 weeks, started catching up on friday. I'm on patch pilot with mdeslaur today
<kees> I'm also on triage
<kees> er, no, community
<kees> I've got a huge backlog of email still that I'll be trying to make my way through as well.
<kees> that's really it from me. :)
<jdstrand> shall I go?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sure
<jdstrand> so today is the week of testing for me
<jdstrand> in addition to being on triage, mozilla releases a new firefox later this week
<jdstrand> they are also releases a new tbird, which will be the transition from 3.0 -> 3.1 on lucid
<jdstrand> chromium builds finished over the weekend, so I will be testing that
<jdstrand> and finally apparmor 2.5.1 is in lucid-proposed now, so I need to test that
<jdstrand> I would encourage all lucid users to install the apparmor packages in lucid-proposed and give feedback in bug #660077
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 660077 in apparmor (Ubuntu Lucid) "update AppArmor to 2.5.1 (for upstream and backported maverick kernels)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/660077
<jdstrand> (positive or negative)
<jdstrand> that is it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I just finished doing my patch pilot duty
<mdeslaur> This week I need to test imagemagick and paste updates
<mdeslaur> and have started working on fuse updates (which need util-linux fixes also)
<mdeslaur> I may update to natty this week also
<mdeslaur> that's it from me!
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: tag, you're it
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you want to use a maverick kernel still (for kvm)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: argh, well I guess I won't be updating then
<mdeslaur> kvm is broken in natty?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: I filed a bug on it today, and hallyn tells me it is fixed upstream though
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: it works, you just can't stop the machine (it is unkillable :)
<mdeslaur> ah
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: do you have a bug #?
<jdstrand> yes, hold on
<jdstrand> bug #685991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 685991 in linux (Ubuntu) "cannot kill kvm process that uses 'tap'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/685991
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
 * sbeattie goes now.
<sbeattie> I'm testing an openssl update I'm working on.
<sbeattie> I also have a phpmyadmin fakesync'ed package in the ubuntu-security-proposed ppa that I'll release this week.
<sbeattie> And I'll be helping out with the apparmor lucid sru testing (though I don't have any pieces of infrastructure left running lucid anymore)
<sbeattie> Mmm, I think that's it for me.
<sbeattie> Does anyone else have any issues for the security team?
<jdstrand> well, there is the business about the laptops for natty security testing
<kees> mdeslaur and sbeattie both called "not it", so I'm happy to take one
<jdstrand> which leaves me with one
<jdstrand> which is fine, but it makes me wonder about desktop updates...
<sbeattie> jdstrand: in what way?
<jdstrand> there is an implication that kees and I will be doing the updates that affect the desktop for natty
<jdstrand> but maybe I am reading too much into it
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: yes, congratulations :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sbeattie> heh
<jdstrand> apparently I was not reading too much into it :)
<kees> heh
<robbiew> jdstrand: they could be setup for remote access, right ;)
<jdstrand> anyway, we know know who is getting them, and that is what's important for now
<ScottK> sbeattie: There are now debdiffs in the clamav security bugs.
<ScottK> bugs/bug
<sbeattie> jdstrand: the reason I'mnot taking one is that I have hardware that (I believe) is capable of running unity and is mostly a test vmhost, but can be used for non-virtual testing as well.
<jdstrand> robbiew: I'm not letting those jokers on my LAN :P
<robbiew> lol
<jdstrand> seriously though, we'll figure it out
 * robbiew notes jdstrand and kees 
<robbiew> ...he's a making a list and checking twice..
<mdeslaur> I can take one if someone wants to pay the duty and taxes to get it shipped here
<jdstrand> if we are done with that, I also wanted to talk about sbuild/umt
<robbiew> mdeslaur: canonical has a fedex account ;)
<sbeattie> ScottK: thanks, noted, either I or kees will handle it this week.
<mdeslaur> ok, if kees or jdstrand really want to opt out, I'll take one
<jdstrand> I don't want to opt out
<jdstrand> there is nothing saying we can't rotate or give remote access
<mdeslaur> ok
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: what's with sbuild/umt?
<jdstrand> iirc, only kees and I are running natty atm
<kees> i'm worried that if I switch to a heavier load of auditing, I'll be in a weird position to do desktop testing, but I'm cool either way.
<jdstrand> (from the team)
<kees> jdstrand: I'm running natty with a maverick kernel.
<jdstrand> kees: as am I
<sbeattie> jdstrand: correct, though I was contemplating upgrading my build host.
<jdstrand> so, there was an issue with sbuild preventing older releases from building but that is now fixed and in the archive
<jdstrand> but I noticed some odd stuff float by in builds, like:
<jdstrand> /tmp/umt-EEdTRD: 35: cannot create /etc/apt/sources.list.new: Permission denied
<jdstrand> Sessions still open, not unmounting
<jdstrand> kees: have you seen that ^ ?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I get the "Sessions still open, not unmounting" on maverick
<jdstrand> ok
<kees> jdstrand: I haven't, but I haven't built anything in 2 weeks, so who knows what's changed.
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> then, let's just leave it at 'things seem to build, but keep an eye out for odd messages'
 * jdstrand is done
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: the permission denied message is probably worth investigating though
 * jdstrand nods
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: your sources list may not be getting censored properly
<jdstrand> looking at my todo list, I probably won't be building anything this week, so I'm not taking it for now. if someone wants to look at it, just mention it in #ubuntu-hardened
<kees> cool
<kees> okay, well, that's it, then. thanks everyone! :)
<jdstrand> thanks kees!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<bdrung> cjwatson, cody-somerville, geser, persia, soren, stgraber: dmb meeting in 5 minutes
<cjwatson> here
<cjwatson> but with a stinking headache so the shorter the better :P
<geser> o/
<stgraber> will be available in 3 minutes ;) though might get disturbed by customers calling.
<stgraber> (crazy day)
 * soren will be 5-10 minutes late :(
<bdrung> persia, cody-somerville: dmb meeting?
<bdrung> should we begin?
<cjwatson> we're quorate
<bdrung> ok, let's begin
<cjwatson> (you, me, geser, stgraber = 4)
<bdrung> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is bdrung.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous action items
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review outcome of Core Developer application for Ken VanDine
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review outcome of Core Developer application for Ken VanDine
<bdrung> he became core-dev and was added to the team, correct?
<cody-somerville> I'm here.
<cjwatson> LP says yes.  Was a notice sent to devel-permissions?
<bdrung> yes
<bdrung> so we can tick off this item
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
<bdrung> any news on this topic since the last time?
<cody-somerville> I think at least one member of the CC commented on the issue
<cody-somerville> Feeling that we should be able to proceed forward on this matter
<cody-somerville> I haven't had a chance to respond to the thread myself.
<cody-somerville> However, if we really want to push forward on this I'm prepared to vote in favor or repealing Marco's ban.
<bdrung> digging in the mails i found dholbach's suggestion: if we say "here's X and Y who want to mentor Marco for the first month (or two)" I think we should let them work together and see how it pans out. That's the easiest fix I have to offer.
<cjwatson> I think it has to be strictly time-limited.  If some period of time expires without the improvement being obvious, we should be able to reinstate the prior ban without months of agonising.
<bdrung> to follow this suggestion, we have to allow marco to participation in Ubuntu Development through a sponsor
<ScottK> I think there are plenty of people who interact with Marco in other venues for there to be someone willing to speak for him without that.
<geser> should this be a "fixed" sponsor Marco subscribes to bugs or should he send mail to his mentor who forwards them to LP?
<ScottK> I think the absence of such a person is sufficient for retaining the ban.
<geser> ScottK: would you consider feedback from DD based on his contribution to Debian eligible for considering lifting the ban?
<bdrung> cjwatson: there are two ways to implement your idea: either lift the ban for a specific time period and evaluate the lift then or we lift the ban with an easy way to ban again
<ScottK> geser: I think Debian has very different social standards than Ubunut, so not if they weren't involved in Ubuntu development.
<ScottK> bdrung: No such thing as an easy way to ban again.
<soren> I'm rather ambivalent. I very much remember the issues with Marco a couple of years ago, but I'm not generally in favour of perpetual bans. People /do/ change.
<cjwatson> ScottK: well, there were people who spoke for him in his wiki page
<cjwatson> we questioned those on the basis that they weren't in the context of Ubuntu
<cjwatson> (partly, anyway)
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcoRodrigues/ParticipationApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcoRodrigues/ParticipationApplication
<soren> Would it be fair to make it Marco's job to find this designated sponsor?
 * cjwatson can think of at least one example where somebody almost got banned from Debian development and became a very productive and well-respected developer a couple of years later
<ScottK> cjwatson: I don't see any Ubuntu developers on his wiki page saying that they've worked with him and believe the ban should be removed.
<soren> ScottK: Of course not. He's been banned.
<cjwatson> Lucas Nussbaum's an Ubuntu developer, isn't he?
<ScottK> True.
<geser> soren: sure if we can agree that's the way for him
<ScottK> I tend to forget that.
<ScottK> cjwatson: Good point.
<ScottK> soren: He's active in a number of projects where Ubuntu devs are also active (e.g. Debian), so I don't think it's necessary to unban him for Ubuntu developers to form an opinion.
<cjwatson> Perhaps we should ask Lucas (or perhaps Martin) if they're willing to be a dedicated sponsor?  That's a slightly higher level of commitment than a comment in a wiki page, but if they're keen on him returning then it ought to be a commitment they can make
<cjwatson> (The only context in which I see Marco's work, FWIW, is from being CCed on bugs on unknown packages in Debian; he deals with closing out bugs on packages which have been removed.  On the one hand, that's a somewhat mechanical task; on the other hand, it's interesting that I don't remember seeing a single complaint about that, which is sort of impressive)
<cjwatson> (I'd expect to see at least a certain amount of backscatter from mistakes)
<geser> ScottK: Marco didn't cause the same amount of trouble in Debian (in general) like in Ubuntu, so I'm not sure what do with feedback about his work in Debian
<bdrung> cjwatson: good idea. one question will follow: how will the work through a sponsor look like?
<soren> cjwatson: Ok, so we ask Lucas (and perhaps Martin) if they'd be willing to be Marco's dedicated sponsor. If not, we can ask Marco to find one on his own. If that fails, we can take it up again?
<ScottK> geser: He did in debian-games.
<geser> ScottK: I know, but that's only one part of Debian (or was it his complete contribution to Debian at that time?)
<ScottK> geser: I'm not sure.  I think it was his primary contribution at the time.  It was after he was kicked out of there he appeared in #debian-python.
<cjwatson> What has he been like in #debian-python?  The only comment I see about that is Piotr's short one.
<cjwatson> (FWIW, I'm currently roughly 0 on this.  Not sure whether it's +0 or -0, for whatever difference that makes.)
<geser> he got kicked from debian-games? I don't remember anymore if he got kicked or was on the edge of getting kicked
<ScottK> My recollection is he was kicked, but I'm not involved and it was a long time ago.
<geser> almost 3 years ago
<cody-somerville> We're now 30 minutes in
<cody-somerville> I'll be his dedicated sponsor.
<cody-somerville> Lets implement a probation period of 90 days.
<cody-somerville> We'll then take feedback at the end of the 90 days and vote to either reinstate the ban or let him contribute freely.
<bdrung> cody-somerville: how should the sponsoring look like?
<geser> should he file bugs as usual and subscribe you or email you and you'll file them?
<cody-somerville> I'm fine with what ever you guys think is best and will be least disruptive for everyone.
<geser> I've no preference but the later would be more in line with the ban
<bdrung> i should be somehow public. then we can arrive our own conclusions
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> bdrung, +1
<cody-somerville> I think being able to see him interact as he will after the probation period is over (assuming he passes) will be most beneficial
<geser> that would be the advantage of the former but making him not more different than any other new contributor
<bdrung> cody-somerville: a public ban-compliant solution would be that he communicates with you and you will file bugs and his comment and patches
<cody-somerville> If he has a filter on him, how are you guys going to come to your own conclusions?
<bdrung> valid point
<cody-somerville> How about we add a stipulation that the probation period can be terminated early at any time by a majority vote by this council?
<soren> cody-somerville: We can ask you if you'd be willing to keep doing it for another three months. If yes, then he's probably doing OK :)
<cjwatson> We could have a role address which goes to Cody and a developer-readable log file.
<cjwatson> For auditing
<cjwatson> That way Cody's responsible for everything that has the potential to bother developers, but people can independently check how much filtering work he had to do
<cody-somerville> Whatever works for you guys. I just want to see us unblocked on this issue and I don't think keeping him banned indefinitely is the right conclusion.
<bdrung> cjwatson: role address?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville+marcolog@ubuntu.com, or rough equivalent
<geser> cody-somerville: you could make your communication with Marco available to the DMB  as a mbox (or whatever export your mail client supports) (of cource notifing Marco that this will happen)
<cody-somerville> hmm...
<cody-somerville> Will he be allowed on IRC channels?
<cody-somerville> I can't really filter that in real time
<cody-somerville> and I think that the IRC interactions were a part of the problem that we'll want to evaluate
<cjwatson> I don't remember the details of IRC interactions.  The ones I heard about were non-real-time
 * cody-somerville wonders why can't we just unban Marco? If he becomes a problem again, we'll just ask him to refrain from contributing again.
<geser> I don't remember if banning him from IRC was connected to the MC ban or the IRC Coucil did it based on the MC ban
<cjwatson> I think because Marco demotivated developers who we already know are productive members of Ubuntu, and we want to minimise the risk of that happening again
<cjwatson> But I have to admit I share the sentiment that permanent bans are very difficult to justify
<cody-somerville> Marco isn't malicious. His intentions are honorable. Its not within the Ubuntu spirit to be so vindictive. :(
<cody-somerville> There is always going to be people that are annoying or that we don't like.
<ScottK> cody-somerville: Wanting to be productive is not being vindictive.
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Are you active in Debian?
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I am.
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Is it fair to say you contribute to Debian on a regular basis?
<ScottK> cody-somerville: It is.
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Do you feel you are a productive contributor to Debian?
<ScottK> Yes.
 * cjwatson wonders where Cody's going with this
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Marco contributes to Debian on a regular basis. Has his participation there been detrimental to your productivity in Debian?
<ScottK> cody-somerville: It has not, but my contributions to Debian are much narrower than my contributions to Ubuntu and in the cases where there is overlap, I have specifically cautioned him not to make changes in packages I'm involved with.
<ScottK> That and based on his performance in Ubuntu and Debian Games, his work is closely monitored to make sure it doesn't go out of control.
<cody-somerville> ScottK, When Marco was permitted to contribute to Ubuntu, was all of Marco's contributions detrimental to your productivity or only his work on certain packages that you work on in Ubuntu?
<ScottK> cody-somerville: It was detrimental to general work in Universe.  At it's peak, we had several MOTU devoting substantial time to dealing with bad sync requests and things.
<ScottK> Because we don't have maintainers in Ubuntu it's completely different.
<cjwatson> I think this is a fair summary of my thought processes at the moment:  I hate the notion of making ScottK less productive in general.  On the other hand, I feel that in general when people just can't get on they should use killfiles and /ignore, and if necessary let other people deal with whatever fallout there is.
<cjwatson> And I have real trouble wrapping my conscience around a permanent ban in the absence of active malice.
<bdrung> [IDEA] Unban Marco for a specific period of time (e.g. 3 month) then re-evaluate if the ban should be liftet completely.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Unban Marco for a specific period of time (e.g. 3 month) then re-evaluate if the ban should be liftet completely.
<cody-somerville> What if we unban Marco but ask him to refrain from certain behavior that we know caused the most amount of problems in the past?
<bdrung> cody-somerville: good point
<cody-somerville> ie. If sync requests were particularly disruptive, lets ask him to refrain from doing sync requests without asking a dedicated mentor like myself but let him contribute freely in other areas
<ScottK> cjwatson: I understand that perspective and I think it's reasonable.  OTOH, I don't think the project misses much by the lack of his contribution, so why take the risk.
<cjwatson> There is that, but this kind of thing has a habit of being taken as precedent
<cjwatson> Hard cases make bad law, and all that
<ScottK> cjwatson: I think the precedent that it can be permanent is not a bad one for encouraging the others.
<ScottK> It's possible he's changed, but we went through multiple iterations of agreement from him to not do certain thing and then he went and did them anyway after a short period.
<ScottK> So there's plenty of experience with "Just ask him not to..." not being effective.
<cjwatson> And this kind of thing is essentially why my vote is still an abstention :-)
<cjwatson> (Which I know is kind of a cop-out.)
<cody-somerville> We asked him not to contribute to Ubuntu and for the most part he has complied.
<cody-somerville> ie. we didn't ban him from using Launchpad or anything like that.
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, we're now 55 minutes in and I have to leave on the hour.
<cjwatson> chair?
<bdrung> i think we should come to an conclusion about the direction that we want to go.
<cjwatson> I think consensus is unachievable and we should vote.
<cjwatson> (I hope I'm wrong, but we've had multiple hour-long sessions on this.)
<cjwatson> I don't resent the time spent, because the hard cases are the interesting ones, but other people deserve our time too.
<bdrung> i see three directions: 1. lift the ban completely 2. lift the ban for a specific period and allow him to participate through sponsor and re-evaluate and 3. keep the ban
<geser> I've also the feeling that no consensus will be reached even it we talk the next 10 hours about it
 * ajmitch is just catching up on the decisions from 3 years ago
 * cody-somerville is in favor of parole.
<cjwatson> up/down voting is rubbish for this.   If I were voting Condorcet-style on bdrung's options, my vote would be 2=3 NOTA 1.
<geser> after 3 years I'm ready to re-evulate the ban, so I'd pick 2) even I'm not really happy with it to unblock the deadlock
<cjwatson> (if you can decipher my syntax.)
<soren> I can't :(
<cjwatson> [1] 2. [1] 3. [2] NOTA [3] 1.
<cjwatson> "none of the above"
<soren> Ah, /me now succesfully decipers NOTA
<soren> 2 3 1 NOTA, then.
<bdrung> [1] 2. [2] 1. [3] 3. [3] NOTA
<geser> 2 NOTA 3 1
<cjwatson> That sounds as though Cody's going to have a busy few months, then.  I absolutely agree that the board should have the option to end the experiment if need be.
<bdrung> i fail in calculating Condorcet, but it's obvious that 2. won
<bdrung> next thing to decide: how long should be the period?
<cody-somerville> lets re-evaluate in 30 days
<cody-somerville> lets decide then to unban, end, or extend
<bdrung> ok
<geser> cody-somerville: are you mentoring him over the xmas holidays?
<geser> else I'd propose 2011-01-31
<cody-somerville> Good point.
<bdrung> anyone against 2011-01-31?
<stgraber> [1] 2 [1] 3 [2] NOTA [3] 1 (sorry, was away and took me a while to parse the syntax ;))
<cjwatson> BTW: if this fails, it should be explicitly permanent
<cjwatson> "one last chance"
<cody-somerville> I'm against permanent bans.
<cody-somerville> I'd rather set a time period
<cody-somerville> ex. 5 years
<geser> if I'd didn't miscalculate we have even a meeting on 2011-01-31
<cjwatson> As long as I'm off the DMB by that time :-P
<cody-somerville> lol
 * cody-somerville isn't against banning someone for a long time but I think everyone deserves another chance sooner or later.
<geser> cjwatson: you could step down before this topic appears the next time on the agenda in 5 years :)
<bdrung> next: what will Macro be allowed? IRC? commenting on lp bugs? ...
<cjwatson> Given that it's through a sponsor I think we need to leave the IRC ban in place.
<cjwatson> As Cody said, he can't filter in real-time
<geser> isn't IRC access the domain of the IRC council?
<cjwatson> They'd take DMB recommendations for developer channels, I'm pretty ure
<cjwatson> *sure
<cjwatson> and #ubuntu-devel is certainly delegated admin
<cjwatson> (I don't know about #ubuntu-motu)
<bdrung> so we are at email based sponsoring, which should be logged through an role address?
<bdrung> opinions?
<cjwatson> I think I gave mine above ...
<bdrung> anyone against the role address idea?
<cody-somerville> provided someone besides me sets it up, I'm game for the idea
<bdrung> who wants to setup the role address?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: because you don't have the means/time, or because you think it should be independent?  (I'm happy to trust you not to deliberately break it, personally)
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, I don't really have the means.
<cjwatson> If there are no quick volunteers I think we should leave it to the minutes, or perhaps you can ask IS?
<bdrung> cjwatson: what do you mean with "leave it to the minutes"?
<cody-somerville> maybe ScottK could help out with this?
<cjwatson> put it in the minutes and ask somebody to help.
<cjwatson> (anything to move on.)
<cody-somerville> I hear he is pretty good around an e-mail server
<bdrung> cjwatson: with wich mootbot command?
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I'm unwilling to expend effort on a volunteer basis for helping review the possibility of kmos contributing to Ubuntu.  I think the ban should be left and the project should move on.
<cjwatson> I don't remember.  Write it in by hand?
<bdrung> cody-somerville: will you inform Marco about the outcome of this meeting?
<bdrung> [AGREED] Allow Macro to participate in the Ubuntu development through an sponsor until 2010-01-31 and then evaluate the result.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Allow Macro to participate in the Ubuntu development through an sponsor until 2010-01-31 and then evaluate the result.
<cody-somerville> bdrung, Yes.
<bdrung> [ACTION] cody-somerville to inform Macro that he is allowed to participate in the Ubuntu development through an sponsor until 2010-01-31
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to inform Macro that he is allowed to participate in the Ubuntu development through an sponsor until 2010-01-31
<bdrung> [ACTION] find someone who setups the role address for logging Marcos progress
<MootBot> ACTION received:  find someone who setups the role address for logging Marcos progress
<bdrung> then let's move on to the next topic
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review responsibilities and requirements of DMB delegates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review responsibilities and requirements of DMB delegates
<bdrung> cody-somerville: ^
<cody-somerville> We need to defer that topic.
 * cody-somerville has to get back to work.
<bdrung> ok
<geser> do we still have quorum for the applicants?
<bdrung> we should
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<stgraber> I'm sorry but I also have to get back to work, customers calling :(
<bdrung> cjwatson, geser, soren and me remain
<bdrung> is Martin Pool here?
<geser> poolie doesn't seem to here. Too early for him?
<cjwatson> I have no complaints or questions but I know some people like to talk to applicants in person
<cjwatson> perhaps we can schedule a one-off at a convenient time?
<geser> I've no problem with that
<bdrung> me too (if it is really a timezone problem)
<cjwatson> he's in .au
<bdrung> cjwatson: do you want to take care of finding a convenient time?
<cjwatson> it's 7:40am there
<cjwatson> sure
<bdrung> [ACTION] cjwatson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Alexandros Frantzis' application for universe-contributor
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alexandros Frantzis' application for universe-contributor
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlexandrosFrantzis/UniverseContributorApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlexandrosFrantzis/UniverseContributorApplication
<alf_> Hi! I am here.
<cjwatson> Thanks for waiting
<cjwatson> ... Does anyone have any questions, or are they all still reading?
 * bdrung is still reading
<geser> what's the connection between Linaro and Canonical? I don't remember seeing anything explaining the connection between those two (only regular mentioning of Linaro)
<alf_> geser: Canonical assigns engineers to Linaro work
<alf_> and many of the leaders within Linaro come from Canonical/Ubuntu
<bdrung> alf_: do you have ideas to make the revu process less frustrating?
<alf_> bdrung: the process itself is fine, the problem is the slow rate at which the process progresses, presumably due to lack of manpower
<cjwatson> (Linaro also has a bunch of engineers from other companies, FWIW)
<geser> and Linaro focus mainly on ARM?
<rsalveti> yes
<bdrung> alf_: what's the status of getting your new packages into debian, too?
<alf_> bdrung: I haven't yet had the time to look into it, but I plan to
<bdrung> Any outstanding questions?
<bdrung> otherwise let's vote
<bdrung> [VOTE] Alexandros Frantzis to become universe-contributor
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Alexandros Frantzis to become universe-contributor.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * cjwatson has nothing, it was a refreshing change to see somebody other than me working on germinate
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> (still trying to get that change landed ...)
<geser> soren: still here?
<bdrung> should we continue the vote on the mailing list?
<geser> if we lost soren too then we have to defer the voting to the mailing list
 * soren is back
<soren> Sorry.
<bdrung> great
<soren> Had a daughter that demanded attention :-/
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<geser> soren: a high-priority uninteruptable task? :)
<bdrung> geser: the DMB meeting is a uninteruptable task :P
<soren> geser: something like that :)
<cjwatson> as any kernel hacker knows, uninterruptible tasks should be short :)
<bdrung> [ACTION] Add Alexandros Frantzis to universe-contributor
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Add Alexandros Frantzis to universe-contributor
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<bdrung> who volunteers?
<soren> I'll be on holiday and attempting to not operate machinery of any kind.
<cjwatson> I think I can do it
<bdrung> cjwatson: you won :)
 * geser can't attend the 12 UTC meetings at all (I'm in the middle of a lecture at that time)
<bdrung> [ACTION] cjwatson to be the next chair man
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to be the next chair man
<bdrung> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:05.
<alf_> Thanks all, bye!
<bdrung> alf_: congrats
<alf_> bdrung: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-07
 * peppe84 is away: 
<nigelb> !away | peppe84
<ubottu> peppe84: You should avoid noisy away messages and -nicks in a busy channel like #ubuntu, or other Ubuntu channels; it causes excessive scrolling which is unfair to new users. Use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently.  See also Â«/msg ubottu GuidelinesÂ»
<peppe84> nigelb, sorry. ok turn off away
 * peppe84 is away: 
 * peppe84 is back (gone 00:00:13)
<udienz> !now
<udienz> anyone come from Asia/Oceania Board?
<nigelb> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 07 2010, 10:11:58
<nigelb> Looks like no meeting today either.
<udienz> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar give me Asia/Oceania board meeting
<nigelb> Its supposed to happen today, but the board hasn't really met since October I think
<maqtanim> but here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<maqtanim> it is mentioned today's date
<udienz> nigelb: all board?
<maqtanim> I am also waiting for the meeting
<udienz> maqtanim: yes, today
<nigelb> well, if the wiki mentions today, then I really hope it happens
<udienz> maqtanim: let ask nhandler
<nigelb> persia, lifeless ^^
<udienz> and amachu :D
<maqtanim> udienz:  nhandler is away :(
<ogitux> meeting has been started yet?
<maqtanim> ogitux: no sign of meeting :(
<maqtanim> though it is 10:25 UTC
<maqtanim> but no one from the board showed up
<maqtanim> and there is another meeting of ubuntu-audio-dev team
<maqtanim> at 11:00 UTC
<maqtanim> so we've almost 30 minutes left
<czajkowski> well there is an emea board meeting tonight if folks want to come to that
<maqtanim> czajkowski: at what time?
<takdir> Vantrax
<Vantrax> Aye
<czajkowski> maqtanim: 8pm utc
<Vantrax> Finally managed to get on on my phone
<nigelb> Better late than never ;)
<takdir> we have meeting now but where is the others ?
<Vantrax> I guess
<Vantrax> I hate being late
<Vantrax> Attendance has been poor
<maqtanim> So nobody is here from the board?
<Vantrax> Yes
<Vantrax> Tak is here, elky is too
<maqtanim> So what is the procedure of the meeting?
<takdir> Vantrax, elky, persia
<elky> hi
<Vantrax> So we meet quorum
<elky> i am in nz at the moment, sorry for being wonky on times
<Vantrax> I think I have to start sending emails again
<elky> if we have quorum, can we start, It's 23:35 here for me right now
<Vantrax> We also need to keep the website updated to o
 * udienz ready
<Vantrax> Who has the list? I'm mobile atm
 * maqtanim is ready
<elky> ogitux
<elky> ogitux, are you here?
<Vantrax> You here?
<elky> shani?
 * nobuto is here
<elky> shani has a responder script, so probably afk
<Vantrax> Ok keep going
<elky> maqtanim, is next in queue
<maqtanim> yeah I am here
<elky> then now would be when you paste your pre-prepared introduction.
<maqtanim> I am Adnan Quaium. Currently I am studying in Technical Univ of Delft. Although I am not a IT professional or a software developer (I am actually an Electrical engineer), enthusiasm for Linux and Ubuntu brought me here in the Ubuntu community. I believe in Open-source philosophy. I am using Ubuntu and trying to spread Ubuntu within my local community.
<ogitux> elky yes
<Vantrax> We will come back to you
<elky> maqtanim, What contributions are you basing your application on?
<maqtanim> well I am regualr in my local IRC channel #UbuntuBD
<maqtanim> I write Bangla tutorials and articles concerning Ubuntu and Linux to promote Ubuntu within the Bangladeshi users.
<Vantrax> Links to pages?
<maqtanim> http://www.linux.org.bd/post/author/ovroniil
<maqtanim> Vantrax sorry which pages?
<maqtanim> also I designed some bengali ubuntu promotional buttons
<maqtanim> and designed posters for UBuntu release party
<Vantrax> Your wiki page
<maqtanim> Vantrax https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<maqtanim> to be precisely ... my contributions can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim#My%20Contributions
<takdir> maqtanim, do you have blog that tell your contributions?, maybe with some picture or photos ? ;)
<maqtanim> We have a blog in Bangladesh Linux Users Alliances website
<maqtanim> I published my works there
<maqtanim> http://www.linux.org.bd/post/author/ovroniil
<maqtanim> but those are written in Bengali
<maqtanim> in Bangali online community I am known as ovroniil
<Vantrax_> Sorry disconnected for a min there
 * Ekushey is here to support maqtanim
<maqtanim> Vantrax_  did you get my wiki page?
<maqtanim> Ekushey thanks :)
<Vantrax_> Yep, good page
<maqtanim> Vantrax_  thanks :)
<elky> where's the rest of our quorum?
<Vantrax_> Reading his page, I'm good tho
<udienz> elky: me
<elky> udienz, do you have questions for him?
<udienz> elky: not yet, i think maqtanim is a good contributor
<maqtanim> udienz thanks :)
<elky> ok, we usually try to avoid spending half of our meeting on a single person, so can we vote. I think we also risk going in to another meeting's time
 * udienz waiting
<Ekushey> being the founder of ubuntu-bd locoteam I can vouch for maqtanim -- if that counts
<Ekushey> he made a tremendous contribution is many ways
<udienz> Ekushey = Russel Jhon?
<Ekushey> udienz hi mate! yes :)
<udienz> ah.. hello Ekushey
 * diwic is waiting for previous meeting to finish before starting the ubuntu-audio-dev meeting.
<Vantrax_> Ok
<elky> ugh, we didn't start the bot
<elky> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:03. The chair is elky.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elky> [link]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<MootBot> LINK received:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/maqtanim
<Vantrax> We have to vote and hand off. We will have to do the others next time
<elky> [vote] maqtanim membership application
<MootBot> Please vote on:  maqtanim membership application.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<takdir> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from takdir. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Ekushey> ah cool, congrats maqtanim :)
<elky> where's our fourth in the quorum?
<elky> udienz?
<Vantrax> Sorry to those we could not get to
<maqtanim> thanks a lot guys :)
<udienz> elky: i'm applicant
<elky> oh, then why did you respond as quorum earlier?
<czajkowski> ugh,
<elky> this isn't done until we've had a quorum vote
<Vantrax> We will get you next time or through our list if your wiki is strong enough
<elky> nigelb?
<Vantrax> Oh darn
<elky> are you on the board yet?
<maqtanim> is there a member short in quoram?
<Vantrax> Not yet but im working on it
<czajkowski> this does seem to be rather poorly organised folks.
<czajkowski> not very fair on applicants.
<Vantrax> Nope, and its an ongoing problem with this board
<elky> which we've been trying to fix since it's inception.
<Vantrax> Has always been a problem with this board
<Vantrax> Makes me pull my hair out
<Ekushey> ummm so what happens now?
<elky> we try to find someone on membership board who can cast the final vote.
<Vantrax> We process what we	 can	via	the mailing list and notify aplicants and da
<Ekushey> I guess that can be done via email? I see +3 :)
<elky> i don't think that's published proceedure I'm afraid
<Vantrax> And deal with the rest next time
<elky> Ekushey, yes, but a -1 would null that.
<jussi> o/
<Vantrax> It can be done
<Ekushey> elky oh sorry I wasn't aware of that
<elky> jussi, can you refer to the scrollback and decide on maqtanim
<jussi> wait, reading :)
<Vantrax> Danke
<elky> Ekushey, it's rare to need less than +3, and rare for a quorum less than 4, for obvious reasons.
<Vantrax> From discussions on the cc list it looks like you can vote via mailing list
<elky> Vantrax, is it on a wiki page somewhere yet though?
<jussi> yes, the vote should go to the ML, then the applicant is approved based on the ML approval.
<Vantrax> I think we do that for those that turned up where possible
<Ekushey> good idea
<diwic> elky, are you long from finished? Perhaps we should have the ubuntu-audio-dev meeting in another channel or so
<elky> diwic, we are waiting on jussi casting a vote I think
<Vantrax> Anyway, jussi can give a +1
<jussi> elky: I am not comfortable giving a +1 at this time - why not just take it to the ML?
<elky> #endvote
<Vantrax> We are done, sorry to messyou around
<elky> [endvote[
<elky> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<elky> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:18.
<jussi> and isnt 3 +1's enough for the quorum - dont you have 5 people in the board?
<Vantrax> Ill send out an email when I get home
<diwic> ok, let's start ubuntu-audio-dev meeting then
<diwic> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:19. The chair is diwic.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elky> jussi, 4 is a quorum
<Vantrax> Sadly more
<jussi> k
<ronoc> good morning all
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we want to discuss?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we want to discuss?
<diwic> [TOPIC] PulseAudio 0.9.22
<MootBot> New Topic:  PulseAudio 0.9.22
<TheMuso> Yes, the seemingly former pulse debian maintainer has put out a call for people to join pkg-pulse and help.
<udienz> Asia - Oceania RMB is ended?
 * TheMuso has submitted a request to join.
<ronoc> TheMuso, what kind of help ?
<TheMuso> ronoc: Packaging.
<awolfson> hi
<ronoc> grand
<ronoc> TheMuso, I was hoping to get around to doing a pulse module before xmas
<ronoc> which fades volumes on mute action
<TheMuso> ronoc: Cool.
<diwic> TheMuso, so will PulseAudio-stable-queue be maintained in Debian and flow down to Ubuntu?
<TheMuso> Does that not need volume ramping?
<ronoc> i have some gdbus port work before then but next week is looking likely
<TheMuso> diwic: Long term, yes that would be good.
<TheMuso> It all depends on how often I can get sponsorship for Debian.
<ronoc> TheMuso, i don't know, I would like to circumvent the click which happens now when mute is triggered
<diwic> TheMuso, hmm, perhaps applying for DM isn't that hard
<TheMuso> diwic: Probably not, but I'd need some work under my belt in Debian first though.
<diwic> TheMuso, but this maintainership in Debian, is it something you feel you'll handle yourself or are you looking for help from one of us?
<rodrigo_> about pa-0.9.22, I pushed TheMuso's package to a PPA for maverick, and diwic and I discussed about probably having an official PPA, so should we have that PPA?
<TheMuso> diwic: I'll likely handle it myself, but help is always welcome.
<rodrigo_> the temp PPA is https://launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/+archive/ppa
<TheMuso> rodrigo_: The ubuntu-audio-dev PPAs are as official as it gets. :)
<TheMuso> You should have upload access.
<rodrigo_> oh, didn't know about it
<TheMuso> There is a PPA for maverick and lucid.
<diwic> TheMuso, right, so we should push 0.9.22 to the standard u-a-d ppa
<rodrigo_> oh, cool, will upload it latert then
<ronoc> i must down grade actually, I still have the trunk ppa from just after orlando
<TheMuso> diwic: Yeah, sounds like rodrigo_ will take care of it.
<TheMuso> ronoc: Yeah we need to set up daily builds of git master at some point.
<diwic> TheMuso, sounds good
<ronoc> TheMuso, was not the decision taken to stick with stable queue
<ronoc> ?
<rodrigo_> yes, uploading as we speak
<TheMuso> ronoc: Yes, but daily builds of git master are still useful for testing.
<diwic> ronoc, about the click, that can be more difficult than it looks like; sometimes its unavoidable as there are external amplifiers turning on and off
<ronoc> TheMuso, sure
<diwic> ronoc, but there was an interesting patch which I think is in master about reducing volume very quickly to avoid loudness bumps for automatic gain control
<ronoc> diwic, I know but some investigation would be a useful exercise at least so the next time somebody rocks up a uds and goes on about the click I will have a story to tell :)
<ronoc> diwic, cool, can you point me towards it ?
<diwic> ronoc, sure, remind me after the meeting and I'll try to look it up
<ronoc> will do
<diwic> [TOPIC] module-jackdbus-detect
<MootBot> New Topic:  module-jackdbus-detect
 * diwic has written a PA module :-)
<ronoc> excellent
<rodrigo_> cool
<TheMuso> And its in stable queue.
<diwic> It detects when jackdbus is running and starts jack sink and jack source
<TheMuso> Well the first patch is.
<ronoc> diwic, on launchpad ?
<diwic> TheMuso, I went with the modifying-Makefile.in approach
<TheMuso> diwic: cool.
<diwic> TheMuso, painful but it worked
<diwic> ronoc, Pulseaudio in my ppa has the module enabled
<diwic> the open question is the second patch, if we want to enable it by default or not
<ronoc> okay so exactly this allows pulse to sit on top of jack ?
<TheMuso> diwic: Exposing through paprefs does sound useful though.
<diwic> and if so, if we want to just present the source/sink or autoconnect it to jack soundcard ports
<diwic> ronoc, that's already possible, but this automates the possibility
<ronoc> diwic, okay, how is the performance ?
<diwic> TheMuso, so you're for the paprefs approach, other opinions?
<diwic> ronoc, hmm, good enough I assume?
<ronoc> diwic, TheMuso , paprefs sounds good, I would need to play with it to see how it may be used
<diwic> ronoc, so in my version it starts on PA startup
<rodrigo_> paprefs is not installed by default, btw
<ronoc> good point
<rodrigo_> so, what are you exposing in paprefs, sorry?
<diwic> rodrigo_, a checkbox whether to enable the module or not
<rodrigo_> hmm, ok
<rodrigo_> doesn't sound to user-friendly to have it in gnome-volume-control I guess
<diwic> rodrigo_, naah, it's not that mainstream IMO
<diwic> anyway, since this only works with the dbus-enabled version of jack, it might make sense to switch to that version by default in Natty, do you agree?
<ronoc> yup
<rodrigo_> +1
<TheMuso> Jackd2 s already the default.
<diwic> Anybody wanna look into qjackctl enabling the dbus mode by default as well?
<diwic> Are there more common jack control apps we should have a look at?
<TheMuso> That shouldn't be hard, just a patch to the qjackctl source.
<ronoc> I could try next week perhaps, depending on work load, playlists may land in banshee and if so I need to do my side of things
<diwic> I can look into it myself if you like
<ronoc> if you have time that would be great
<diwic> we should also merge the jackdbus patch
<TheMuso> Yeah I will update to latest stable queue tomorrow I think./
<diwic> I was also thinking of announcing it on ubuntu-studio ML, perhaps to ask for opinions there as well
<diwic> TheMuso, sounds good
<ronoc> diwic, good idea
<diwic> [ACTION] diwic to look into qjackctl -> enable dbus by default
<MootBot> ACTION received:  diwic to look into qjackctl -> enable dbus by default
<diwic> [ACTION] TheMuso to package latest stable-queue in Natty
<MootBot> ACTION received:  TheMuso to package latest stable-queue in Natty
<ronoc> are people on natty already ?
<diwic> no
<rodrigo_> I am
<ronoc> stable ?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<TheMuso> natty here
<rodrigo_> well, not fully up-to-date, just update the packages I need
<rodrigo_> but yes, quite stable
<ronoc> how has banshee been behaving ?
<rodrigo_> ronoc, playing music with it right now :)
<rodrigo_> ronoc, no problems so far
<rodrigo_> not sure I have the very latest though, let me check
<ronoc> i have noticed some funnies on maverick but this could be to do with my git master pa
<rodrigo_> yes, up to date
<ronoc> stream stopping mid stream and then resuming a few seconds later
<ronoc> could be a number of things though
<rodrigo_> hmm, now that I remember, I sometimes get, as in maverick, the crippling sound
<ronoc> crippling sound ?
<rodrigo_> that is, playing something, then it starts crippling, and then you stop playback for a while, and resume and it works
<rodrigo_> it also happens on totem though
 * diwic notices yet another name for how sound can be broken.
<rodrigo_> so seems a gstreamer/pa issue
<rodrigo_> well, not sure if that's the correct word :)
<ronoc> rodrigo_, ah okay understood,  there are few gremlins between gstreamer and pa
<ronoc> pa_stream_size_write_failed etc
<rodrigo_> ok
<diwic> ...which brings us to the next topic
<ronoc> bugs ?
<diwic> [TOPIC] Any bugs to look out for and allocate resources for solving
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any bugs to look out for and allocate resources for solving
<diwic> Just to inform, I've started looking into fighting rewinds
<TheMuso> Haven't really ben paying attention with bugs recently.
<ronoc> I haven't noticed anything startling, and have been focusing on dev as opposed to bug hunting
<diwic> Seems like abnormal number of rewinds is one of the most common reasons sounds is stuttering in PA or PA crashes
<ronoc> diwic, right so this related to that dvd playback bug ?
<ronoc> that one totem often gets blamed for
<rodrigo_> diwic, yes, seems so
<diwic> Unfortunately this problem is quite complex
<ronoc> i would imagine
<diwic> Both gstreamer and PA are doing things in an inoptimal ways, and sometimes it "tips over"
<diwic> and less CPU power means more likely to "tip over"
<diwic> i e trigger the bug
<diwic> ronoc, I'm not really familiar with any one-and-only dvd playback bug, perhaps you can point me to it
<TheMuso> I gotta bail shortly guys, gotta get to bed.
<diwic> TheMuso, ok, we'll speed up a little
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we've been working on the previous week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we've been working on the previous week
<ronoc> gdbus port of the mpris backend for the sound service
<ronoc> removal of libindicate from the registration process for media players who wish to be used in the menu
<ronoc> branch merged
<diwic> I've been writing module-jackdbus-detect, and started looking into the rewind stuff. Other than that, it's been quite a lot of hwe (hardware enablement) activities.
<diwic> Actually I've started writing some on the audio apport symptom too
<rodrigo_> I've started packaging ossproxy, as discussed in last meeting, no luck so far, the official tarball doesn't even compile, I think because it needs a newer libfuse, but not sure yet, I have been off for national holidays since Thursday, so will be back to it later
<diwic> But it's far from complete
<TheMuso> rodrigo_: Interesting. If I get some time, I'll take a look myself.
<rodrigo_> also, I started looking at diwic's apport stuff, and looking at docs for how to show an image on the dialog
<rodrigo_> TheMuso, I'll push my packaging branch later on, so that you cna pick up from there, ok?
<ronoc> diwic, rodrigo_ , is it not just a gconf setting
<TheMuso> rodrigo_: Sounds good.
<ronoc> a button on the UI "report problem"
<rodrigo_> ronoc, oh, is it?
<ronoc> just trying to remember what we said at uds
<diwic> ronoc, what is a gconf setting?
<ronoc> diwic, an easy way to expose an option on the UI
<rodrigo_> <rodrigo_> pitti, is there any way to show an image in apport dialogs, from a symptom module?
<rodrigo_> <pitti> rodrigo_: not right now, I'm afraid
<ronoc> diwic, rodrigo_ I can find out for next week
<diwic> rodrigo_, it's just a nice to have; so maybe we don't need to make that a priority at the moment
<ronoc> i will take this action
<rodrigo_> ronoc, the image in apport action, you mean?
<rodrigo_> diwic, yes, sure
<TheMuso> Ok anything else?
<ronoc> rodrigo_, the updating of the g-v-c so as a button is on the dialog saying 'report problem'
<ronoc> which then brings you to the apport symptoms dialgo
<ronoc> og
<rodrigo_> ronoc, ah, ok
<ronoc> sorry getting mixed up
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we plan to do the coming week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we plan to do the coming week
<rodrigo_> np :)
<diwic> [ACTION] ronoc to look into g-v-c to add button to trigger audio apport symptom
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ronoc to look into g-v-c to add button to trigger audio apport symptom
<ronoc> finish off this gdbus port, if playlists land, work on my side of the playlists mpris carry on, and ^
<TheMuso> Update pulse in natty to latest stable queue.
<diwic> I'll like have a lot of hwe activity but if time permits, continue on rewind and audio apport symtpom
<TheMuso> Try and make time to look at ossproxy.
<awolfson> diwic, I hope to have free cycles after New Year to get involved in apport
<rodrigo_> finish ossproxy packaging, get pitti to let me know what would be needed in apport for showing the image
<diwic> awolfson, sounds good
<diwic> ok, anything else?
<TheMuso> not from me
<ronoc> not from me
<diwic> oh, next meeting
<diwic> My calendar applet is a little strange but it looks like two-weeks-from-now, this time, is busy
 * TheMuso will not be here on the 21st, I have leave that I am taking from the 16th.
 * awolfson hopes he will in Carribean on vacation
<awolfson> 19-26
<ronoc> sounds nice
<TheMuso> So you guys feel free to go ahead and make a time.
<ronoc> beats ireland in December
<ronoc> next week, same time is good for me
<TheMuso> yeah I can do this time next week.
<ronoc> TheMuso, do you want it earlier ?
<TheMuso> ronoc: no its fine.
<ronoc> grand
<diwic> ping
<TheMuso> pong
<TheMuso> anyway guys, gotta run.
<ronoc> grand talk later luke
<rodrigo_> I'm off next week
<diwic> ping?
<TheMuso> well perhaps this is the last meeting for the year, and we have one first week back in January, i.e  the 3rd.
<TheMuso> diwic: connection troubles?
<awolfson> diwic, So when is the next meeting? You will post on the list?
<TheMuso> sorry, the 4th
<ronoc> yup 4th
<diwic> TheMuso, yes
<diwic> 4th january works for me
<TheMuso> Sounds good.
<TheMuso> Ok really off now.
<ronoc> 4th it is, meeting done ?
<diwic> ok
<diwic> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:10.
<rodrigo_> ok
<ronoc> talk soon guys
<ronoc> diwic, that pa module sounds interesting, could you ping me a location whenever you get a moment
<diwic> ronoc, so if you want to test it, it's in my ppa (just install the pulseaudio and pulse-module-jack packages)
<diwic> ronoc, if you want to see the source, it's here:
<ronoc> diwic, I would like to test your work but also take a look at the volume adjustment module you mentioned
<diwic> https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-December/008347.html
<diwic> so for the volume adjustment stuff, let me see...
<diwic> https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-October/008006.html <- here's where the discussion starts off. I'm not sure it's merged in master, it's unlikely merged in stable-queue
<ronoc> diwic, thx checking now
<zul> elo
<smoser> ole
<ttx> o/
<nijaba> o/
<Daviey> \o/
<zul> there is a meeting now isnt it?
<smoser> I'll be back on ~ 35 minutes from now.
<smoser> there is a meeting. kirkland is to scribe (for me)
<smoser> later all
<kirkland> howdy
<kirkland> right, i'll scribe
<kirkland> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is kirkland.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kirkland> agenda is at
<kirkland> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<kirkland> [topic] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<kirkland> ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html for 'needs-verification' bugs
<kirkland> anything to say about this?
<kirkland> alrighty ...
<kirkland> robbiew to review ServerTeam wiki
<kirkland> robbiew: had fun reading the wiki?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> still sorting
<robbiew> but I got the status page up
<robbiew> :)
<kirkland> robbiew: \o/
<robbiew> https//wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<kirkland> [link] https//wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https//wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<robbiew> thnx :/
<kirkland> robbiew: carry this one to next week, or call it done?
<robbiew> carry it
<kirkland> robbiew: cool
<robbiew> keeps me on my toes
<kirkland> SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<kirkland> spamaps is not around
<Daviey> kirkland: Just a quick one from the previous topic.... do you know when AA's are next looking at Lucid SRU's in the queue?
<kirkland> carry over
<kirkland> Daviey: I do not
<kirkland> Daviey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration
<kirkland> Daviey: that's the schedule
<kirkland> Daviey: i'm on patchpilot tomorrow, so i'll probably not have time to do AA stuff
<kirkland> Kernel team to follow up on bug 661294
<Daviey> dang it. thanks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<kirkland> smb: any news on 661294 ?
<kirkland> jj-afk: smb: around?
<smb> kirkland, Not really as I got involved into another nfs bug
<smb> bug 683938
<ubottu> Bug 683938 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/683938 is private
<kirkland> smb: okay, assigned to you;  suppose we'll carry over to next week then
<SpamapS> o/
<hggdh> bug 684304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<hggdh> bloody hell. Sorry
<kirkland> SpamapS is here now
<kirkland> i'll go back a few items...
<kirkland> SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<kirkland> SpamapS: done?
<SpamapS> Yes indeed.
<smb> hggdh, Last time I looked there were lots of questions I believe
<kirkland> SpamapS: okay.  and
<kirkland> SpamapS to setup trend line for server team natty work items
<kirkland> SpamapS: done?
<SpamapS> sorry for the tardiness.. this time is proving nearly impossible for me to hit. :(
<SpamapS> yes trendline is set at 392
<kirkland> SpamapS: can you hit me with a couple of urls?
<kirkland> SpamapS: for the log
<SpamapS> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-server.html
<SpamapS> The other graphs still use ttx's inverted chart with its automatic line, so no need to reset those
<kirkland> SpamapS: cool, do you have a link to your email thread from the mailing list archive?
<SpamapS> kirkland: I'll dig one up.. feel free to move on if you don't want to wait, will just be a minute
<kirkland> SpamapS: sure, thanks
<kirkland> JamesPage to arrange URL for Hudson CI Server
<kirkland> JamesPage to arrange URL for Hudson CI Server
<kirkland> JamesPage: howdy ;-)  reviewing last week's items
<kirkland> JamesPage: ^ was on you
<JamesPage> kirkland: still in progress.... - please carry forwards
<kirkland> JamesPage: got it, thanks.
<kirkland> [topic] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<SpamapS> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2010-November/004876.html
<kirkland> robbiew: this one is yours, presumably?
<kirkland> SpamapS: thanks
<robbiew> heh...indeed
<robbiew> but given I just put the wiki page together last night
<robbiew> I don't have much atm :/
<kirkland> robbiew: alrighty ...
<robbiew> but next week...watch out!!!
<kirkland> robbiew: worth mentioning that we just released Alpha1 last week, I think
<kirkland> quick poll, who here is already running Natty on their primary desktop?
<kirkland> o/
<robbiew> o/
<zul> or primary server
<robbiew> and on their desktop...and netbook \o/
<kirkland> zul: jumping the gun.... i was getting to that :-)
<SpamapS> in a vm o/  ;)
<hggdh> o/
<robbiew> and thankful we have the failsafe login *\o/*
<JamesPage> only in a vm
<zul> on my server yes ;)
<Daviey> o/
<kirkland> alrighty... now for zul's question ... who's running natty a1 in a server?
<Daviey> o/
<kirkland> o/ (in a instance in EC2 -- proxying my web traffic)
<hggdh> installing now
<kirkland> nice!
<kirkland> okay, everyone here running natty rocks :-)
<robbiew> not yet...I need to buy hardware...but that's coming soon ;)
<Daviey> robbiew virtualise baby!
<kirkland> [topic] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<kirkland> hggdh: yo
<hggdh> yes
<hggdh> I have another blocker on UEC testing
<hggdh> bug 684304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<hggdh> the test rig is currently unusable for Natty
<kirkland> hggdh: bummer, okay
<kirkland> hggdh: so you need Daviey or someone to triage that?
<SpamapS> hggdh: is that an HP proliant?
<zul> hggdh: i inted to look at the testing scripts this week for openstack testing as well
<hggdh> yes, it is an HP machine, proliant, I think
<hggdh> Daviey: you could look into it, but it sounds like a kernel bug
<kirkland> hggdh: ah, yes, i see it's more kernel-ish than eucalyptus-ish
<SpamapS> hggdh: I have a friend with a rack full of those (DL380's and DL320's of various generations), many unprovisioned.. if you need some testing I can probably get it going.
<kirkland> hggdh: i assumed euca when you said it was blocking your uec test rig
<kirkland> hggdh: i'll assign that bug to smb
<hggdh> SpamapS: if they could confirm it it would be marvelous
<SpamapS> hggdh: alpha1 ?
<hggdh> SpamapS: yes
<SpamapS> hggdh: I'll have him grab the iso today.
<SpamapS> kirkland: action item?
<smb> hggdh, I saw there is some more info now.
<hggdh> kirkland: *this* time, it is not euca ;-)
<smb> hggdh, Need to find out whether the pci ids show up in lspci on natty
<kirkland> SpamapS: you want an action item to talk to your friend?
<hggdh> smb: will try now
<kirkland> [action] spamaps to talk to his friend to try and get more info on Bug #684304
<MootBot> ACTION received:  spamaps to talk to his friend to try and get more info on Bug #684304
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 684304 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "cciss module does not identify resources" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/684304
<kirkland> hggdh: anything else?
<kirkland> any questions for hggdh ?
<SpamapS> kirkland: yeah I don't talk to my friends without action items. ;)
<hggdh> nothing more from me
<kirkland> SpamapS: alright dude, you got one :-P
<kirkland> [topic] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<kirkland> smb: howdy :-)  your nick has come up a few times already :-)
<smb> hi
<hggdh> smb: lspci output added in the bug
<smb> Unfortunately. :-P
<smb> hggdh, Ok, thanks. I think i saw something in the dmesg too
<kirkland> smb: anything you need to share with us?
<kirkland> smb: looks like we have two bugs we need you to look into
<smb> not sure why the module does not get assigned
<smb> kirkland, There is likely the one nfs bug I cannot reproduce (copying large amounts of data)
<smb> and the other one I can (repeat to try to mount a share with authentication denied crash)
<kirkland> smb: cannot reproduce because it's hard to reproduce, or because you don't have the required setup?
<smb> kirkland, because it does not crash on my setup
<smb> or hang
<smb> I have copied tons of data from lucid server to maverick client without problems on my gigabit ethernet
<kirkland> smb: interesting, okay
<SpamapS> smb: I've been watching the comments. Seems like there are 3 separate testers who have it happening, but no clear correlation as to why or when it dies.
<smb> Before I got sucked into the other bug
<kirkland> smb: well, leave it open/new/unconfirmed until we can figure out a reproduce case
<smb> I was about to ask/help to create a wireshark log
<kirkland> smb: anything else we need to know about?
<kirkland> smb: 2.6.37 seems to be working well for me :-)
<smb> hm, there is possible an upstream solution for the i386 crashes of natty ec2
<smb> t1.micro still needing some solution
<smb> We need to revert some patches for the hd device name for compat with other xen cases
<kirkland> smb: cool
<smb> I guess thats all I currently can think o
<smb> of
<kirkland> smb: thanks
<kirkland> [topic] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<kirkland> sommer: howdy
<kirkland> sommer: around?  anything for us?
<Daviey> hmm
<sommer> hey all, apologies for not being around last couple of weeks
<Daviey> he said he should be here today.
<sommer> :-)
<zul> sommer: congrats btw
<Daviey> \o/
<sommer> thanks
<Daviey> good to see you sommer
<sommer> I don't really have anything for this meeting, but should get back into the swing of things and have some updates for next week
<kirkland> sommer: cool, thanks
<kirkland> [topic] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<sommer> you too Daviey
<kirkland> kim0 is not around ...
<kirkland> i can say on his behalf that he launched http://cloud.ubuntu.com/ this week
<kirkland> [link] http://cloud.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cloud.ubuntu.com/
<kirkland> the magnificent cloud portal -- one stop shopping for all ubuntu/cloud related news in the universe
<kirkland> talk to kim0 if you want your cloud-related blog posts aggregated there
<kirkland> [topic] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<SpamapS> Cool..
 * SpamapS tweets cloud.ubuntu.com
<kirkland> anything free and open that we need to talk about?
<RoAkSoAx> Cluster Stack Update: Pacemaker and cluster-glue's libraries were successfully split into their own binary packages. Most changes/improvements have been forwarded to Debian (I'm hoping the maintainer will adopt them soon). However there was a hold up of packages waiting to be accepted, in the NEW queue, however it was resolved few days ago. I've already updated the MIRs and already ping'd people to get this done ASAP, so we should have all thes
<zul> i want to bring something up
<zul> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-install-service
<zul> ^^^ we been discussing this internally and would like to get some feedback from the community
<SpamapS> RoAkSoAx: rock on!
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: excellent
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: (looks like the end of your statement got cut off)
<RoAkSoAx> :);)
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: "should have all the..."
<RoAkSoAx> so we should have all these packages in Main pretty soon. I'll  continue to ping people to speed up the process though!
<Daviey> \o/
<RoAkSoAx> alright, copy pasting bug I guess ;)
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: great, thanks;  i presume you'll blog about it, and announce it here in this meeting in the next few weeks?
<SpamapS> zul: Should we blog/send that to the mailing list?
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: Do you have a list of the MIR's you are waiting for?
<zul> SpamapS: i would send it to the mailing list
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: yes I'll announce it as soon as they hit Main
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: great thanks
<Daviey> Are we intending to seed these RoAkSoAx ?
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: pacemaker and cluster-glue
<kirkland> zul: okay, cool ... so install service...  discuss on the mailing list then?
<kirkland> zul: or did you want to talk about it here?
<zul> kirkland: yep
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: there are in component-mismatches
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: Great!
<kirkland> zul: okay, so you'll post something to the mailing list?
<zul> kirkland: probably :)
<kirkland> [action] zul to request feedback on the install-service blueprint to the mailing list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to request feedback on the install-service blueprint to the mailing list
<SpamapS> We should set a time for the community to join us to chat about it, maybe in #ubuntu-server?
<SpamapS> Or, crazy idea, maybe we should do a ustream chat about it while in Dallas?
<SpamapS> (though seems like in 1 month we'll be beyond defining it and into implementing it)
<Daviey> SpamapS: Still.. not a bad idea..
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: the only two packages that were left to get their MIRs accepted were pacemaker and cluster-glue. Once they are finally approved everything should be pulled to main since all the other packages (heartbeat cluster-agents and couple others) were already accepted into main but demoted back to universe because we couldn't get the packages in question on time
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: Ah, ok... thanks for the update.
<kirkland> SpamapS: as you said, distro sprint will be a little too late, probably
<kirkland> SpamapS: what do you think an irc conversation offers that zul's mailing list thread won't?
<kirkland> SpamapS: i'd suggest you respond to zul's email with a proposed time/date to talk real-time about it in IRC
<kirkland> SpamapS: cool?
<SpamapS> kirkland: Yeah I can't think of the exact response so I'll abstain.
<SpamapS> kirkland: I think the ML is the place to start no matter what.
<Daviey> +1
<SpamapS> If enough interest turns up we can talk about IRC then.
<kirkland> SpamapS: cool, zul will start the thread on the ML and you can propose a real-time discussion in IRC if necessary
<kirkland> anything else?
<kirkland> going ...
<kirkland> once ...
<kirkland> twice ...
<kirkland> gone.
<Daviey> sold!
<kirkland> [topic] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<kirkland> same time, same place
<kirkland> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:44.
<kirkland> thanks all
 * kirkland waves
<SpamapS> \o/ thanks kirkland!
 * RoAkSoAx back to sleep
<SpamapS>  /win 41
<JFo> o/
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:59. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<bjf>    * Nothing new this week.
<bjf>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<bjf>    * Tim uploaded 2.6.35 ti-omap4 kernel to Natty branch
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>    * Linaro Natty kernel can boot up on both OMAP3 and OMAP4 boards with the same
<bjf>      Natty minimal root filesystem.
<bjf>    * Bug 633227: On-The-Going.
<bjf>      - I found the same issue on Linaro 2.6.37 based Natty kernel, which is close to mainline for OM
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633227 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "instabilities with highmem activated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633227
<bjf>      - So, mainline also has the highmem issue for OMAP4 SMP system
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (5 bugs, 14 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (18 across all packages) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (126 across all packages (up 23)) ====
<JFo>  * 9 linux kernel bugs (up 4)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 6 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 52 Linux Bugs
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs
<JFo>  * 111 Linux Bugs
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:140 (down 2) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> I added 2 new items to the above metrics. The Lucid and Maverick updates milestoned bugs. I think that these
<JFo> may be useful for some of you, such as the SRU Team. I am open to your feedback.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing to report. All inprogress work items are still in various states of flight. :)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<bjf> will come back to this later
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhanceme
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhanceme
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * klog: IO APIC IRQ kernel log checks, use more regexs to allow fuzzier [Firmware] bug checking
<cking>  * fix ARM and PowerPC FTBFS
<cking>  * add --lp-tags-log, -j, --json-data-path, -u, -utils options
<cking>  * expand --lp-tags tagging to all applicable tests
<cking>  * Initial UEFI support:
<cking>  *   detection for BIOS/UEFI firmware
<cking>  *   rename e820dump to memmapdump as it applies to UEFI too
<cking>  *   e820 lib reworked for BIOS + UEFI firmware
<cking>  *   smbios test: fix for UEFI
<cking>  * fwts USB stick image: reworked to use latest fwts dev version, tweak dialog progress bar
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintena
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintena
<smb> nothing new
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> | The Stable kernel team has prepared and uploaded
<sconklin> | kernels for all supported releases. These contain
<sconklin> | a number of non-critical CVEs.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | These kernels are all built, and are awaiting copying
<sconklin> | to the -proposed pocket, at which time the Verification
<sconklin> | phase of the kernel release will begin. This is part
<sconklin> | of the process described here:
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | I expect that these kernels will be in -proposed by
<sconklin> | tomorrow, possibly within hours of now.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | We have been developing and refining tools and processes
<sconklin> | as we go, and this has been the biggest challenge in
<sconklin> | the new process. All changes are being documented on
<sconklin> | The wiki page linked above
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | It's possible that this release can be published by
<sconklin> | Dec 17th, depending on testing resources and when we
<sconklin> | begin verification testing.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | It is unlikely that we will begin another stable
<sconklin> | kernel cycle before the beginning of next year.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> is apw around yet?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<sconklin> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<sconklin> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.81  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.69  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.32 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-26.48  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-23.41  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  32 Natty Bugs (up 13)
<JFo>  1113 Maverick Bugs (up 25)
<JFo>  1110 Lucid Bugs (up 1)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo> Removed from the metrics for this meeting as the tag has been deprecated.
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 25 maverick bugs (up 2)
<JFo>   * 83 lucid bugs (up 2)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 175 maverick bugs (up 8)
<JFo>   * 198 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 6 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today's bug day is covering regression-update bugs. I sent the wrong information earlier today,
<JFo> but there are 118 bugs that need to be looked at, the majority of which will need to be tested
<JFo> against the latest released version and the current version in development. I sent out an e-mail
<JFo> today concerning the day. I've also posted a blog post on our voices page as a reminder.
<JFo> The next bug day will be next week. I'd like for that one to focus on regression-proposed bugs
<JFo> since the ones that I have on my list have been there too long to be seriously considered as legitimate
<JFo> bugs in the proposed queue. I'm open to your feedback and will plan to send out the details if
<JFo> everyone agrees on this focus.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> I have been given further guidance on Bugs with patches by pete and I have begun, albeit slowly, to move
<JFo> through that set of bugs. I hope to have a significant portion of them addressed this week so that
<JFo> the reporting item above should reflect a noticeable difference.
<JFo> I am continuing to work on the script gathering bugs based on a tag as well as the overall hot list
<JFo> script and the script that replaces a tag with another. All of those efforts are intertwined since
<JFo> the logic is very similar. I expect to have some of them finished by the end of this week barring
<JFo> any major roadblocks. :)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<vanhoof> o/
<bjf> vanhoof, go
<vanhoof> sconklin: bjf: regarding this weeks upload for maverick
 * apw arrives
<apw> o/
<vanhoof> is that firm at all?
<vanhoof> I've got a few fixes going into that release, so planning out our bugs for the remainder of the year
<bjf> semi-rigid
<sconklin> vanhoof: the sru team is actively working on it as we speak
<vanhoof> ok cool, i'll keep an eye out for it
<vanhoof> ..
<bjf> apw, can we run through your items?
<apw> bjf sure
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> wanna post the headings
<apw> HZ report has now been produced, it is showing that moving HZ from 100 to 1000 has a between 10-12% CPU overhead under high load, rendering it unsuitable for any sort of server workload, further analysis of these results ongoing.  All other changes are applied an uploaded.
<apw> ..
<sconklin> there's a discussion on #ubuntu-devel that you'll want to scroll back on. my name is in it but not yours
<sconklin> EWRONGWINDOW
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> 14 of the 19 personal patch reviews are now done. The remainder have been pushed out to natty-alpha-2, but none are release critical.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<apw> Preliminary uploads of ti-omap4 branches for Natty have now occured, this will form a basis for the natty development.  Still waiting on ARM CD image testing.  A number of minor work items moved out from natty-alpha-1.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> Preliminary uploads of ti-omap4 branches for Natty have now occured, this will form a basis for the natty development.  Still waiting on ARM CD image testing.  A number of minor work items moved out from natty-alpha-1.
<apw> ARGGLE
<apw> The main distro kernel is now at 2.6.37-8.21 (v2.6.37-rc4 based).  This kernel brings fixes for a large number of 'boots to black' failure modes with the grub2 graphical handoff.  Testing on the graphics boot changes is looking good on this kernel.  v2.6.37-rc5 has already released and will be uploaded shortly.
<apw> ..
<bjf> Thanks apw, does anyone have anything else?
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:14.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<cking> thanks bjf
<jjohansen> thanks bjf
<wendar> who's here for ARB meeting?
 * ajmitch is
 * wendar pinging others
 * statik is
 * stgraber is
<wendar> 4 out of 6 is good, the others may show up later
<wendar> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:06. The chair is wendar.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<wendar> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/Process
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/Process
<wendar> [TOPIC] Meeting Scheduling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Scheduling
<wendar> For those here, is this a good time, and would you like to make this a regular thing?
<statik> this is a good time for me, and meeting regularly and publicly is part of our charter so we should do that
<ajmitch> 1 hour earlier may actually be better for me, if it suits others
<statik> 1 hour earlier would be even better for me ;)
<wendar> ajmitch: 1 hour earlier would be better for Europe
<stgraber> an hour earlier would be fine
<wendar> ajmitch: which timezone are you in?
<ajmitch> UTC+13
<ajmitch> so it would be 7AM instead of 8
<ajmitch> it's more because I'm usually starting work just after 8
<wendar> let's go with one hour earlier
<wendar> and, every 2 weeks?
<statik> +1
<ajmitch> sounds good
<wendar> that puts our next meeting on December 21st
<stgraber> yep
<ajmitch> we can revisit it when daylight saving time changes for people
<wendar> ajmitch: good idea
<wendar> okay, great
<wendar> next, step through status on our current proposals
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - SIR
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - SIR
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 644066 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: SIR 2.1" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> this one I've done the most work on, repackaged it to install in /opt
<wendar> everything is good, except the lintian override for installing in /opt isn't working yet
<wendar> so getting a warning on that
<ajmitch> have you somewhere to push the modified package to?
<wendar> ajmitch: to my PPA
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> how much repackaging work do you see us doing?
<wendar> possibly quite extensive for these first few packages
<wendar> but, none after Natty
<wendar> it basically comes down to supporting the /opt install requirement when the tools can't do it yet
<wendar> but, it should be pretty straightforward once we get a modification pattern down
<wendar> i.e. patch with quilt, add .install files where needed, add lintian override for install in /opt
<ajmitch> OK
<statik> wendar: it's really cool that you put work into updating SIR to meet the rules, have you communicated any of this to rafael? is this something that we could turn into some docs that we can refer people to?
<ajmitch> I'd like to minimise the amount of touching packages that we need to do, though
<statik> I totally agree with  minimising the touching of packages that we do, but i feel like we should write docs that explain to people how to submit packages that meet the rules
<wendar> statik: not yet, and yes it needs to be a collaborative process with the dev (a teaching opportunity), and we need to document it for future devs
<statik> i'm interested in learning how you did it myself ;)
<wendar> ajmitch: agreed on minimizing the amount of touching packages, but that was a condition from the TechBoard for getting around the tool limitations in Maverick
<wendar> ajmitch: since we've got 5 submissions now, it shouldn't be too painful
<ajmitch> right, as long as we limit our work to that, and don't end up repackaging it for some of them :)
<wendar> ajmitch: I see it as primarily "showing the way" by making initial fixes
<statik> wendar: so whats the next step with SIR? ask rafael to make this set of changes and re-upload, then we vote on the updated package that rafael submits? perhaps then we could each take on one of the remaining packages?
<ajmitch> that's what I'd prefer
<stgraber> yup, having him update in his PPA and let us know in the bug sounds good
<wendar> statik: sounds good
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - Basenji
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - Basenji
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644443
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644443
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 644443 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: Basenji 0.7.1" [Undecided,New]
<ajmitch> this one raises the question of what we do with submissions that are also on revu.ubuntuwire.com
<wendar> I'm still of the opinion that this one should be bumped back to REVU
<ajmitch> so am I
<ajmitch> it's getting actively worked on & looked at there (well, as active as revu is :) )
<statik> whats the reason for bumping it, complexity?
<wendar> yes, complexity
<ajmitch> also whether people should be pushing packages through 2 separate review paths
<wendar> also, some of the problems exposed during REVU are handled better there
<statik> ok, i can go along with that. should we hold a vote on it?
<wendar> ajmitch: yes. I'll give a little grace there since ARB is a new process
<ajmitch> it has taken us a little longer than expected to get moving :)
<wendar> call for vote: move to bounce Basenji to the review process
<ajmitch> +1
<statik> should we use the mootbot [VOTE] thing?
<ajmitch> you should, I don't know how to drive it properly :)
<wendar> statik: I was looking up the syntax, and decided I'd figure it out for next meeting
<statik> heh, sure
<wendar> +1
<statik> +1 on rejecting besenji from ARB for maverick on the grounds that it is too complicated to review currently and is currently being worked on in REVU
<ajmitch> if we do, we can suggest backports in the bug
<statik> agreed
<stgraber> +1
<wendar> 4 in favor, 2 absent, motion carries
<wendar> I'll take an action of responding in the queue and updating the status of the submission
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - PyTask
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - PyTask
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/684341
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/684341
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 684341 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: Pytask 10.12.3" [Undecided,New]
<statik> looks like voting is just the meeting chair (wendar) saying [VOTE] topic of vote, us all saying +1 or -1 or +0, and then wendar saying [ENDVOTE]
<statik> wendar: thanks for taking on notifying the basenji author
<wendar> statik: cool, will use that next time
 * ajmitch hasn't had a chance to look at pytask yet
<wendar> I just got an update on it that it has a crash bug
<wendar> actually, it's Quickly that has the bug, PyTask is just affected by it
<wendar> there's an update going into an SRU, so should be good for next meeting
<wendar> overall, I'm in favor of it
<wendar> and expect we'll be able to approve it in the next meeting
<statik> i haven't had a chance to look at pytask yet either, I will do so before the next meeting
<statik> I don't see the crash bug in the pytask bug tracker though
<wendar> statik: hold on, will request a link
<wendar> ah, he's out. I'll add the link to the Pytask review ticket
<statik> is there any special script that you folks use to pull a package from a ppa in order to review it?
<statik> or do you just manually add the ppa, apt-get source the package and then code review/testbuild/testinstall?
<ajmitch> dget -ux http://path.to.dsc
<ajmitch> I grab the dsc url from the LP page
<statik> oh neat
<wendar> [TOPIC] Proposal Review - simple-stopwatch, Suspended Sentence
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal Review - simple-stopwatch, Suspended Sentence
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/665543
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/665543
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 665543 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: simple-stopwatch 0.1.2" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/675033
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/675033
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 675033 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Suspended Sentence 1.0.1" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> I don't have updates on these, but they need the same /opt install review I gave to SIR
<wendar> and probably manual packaging tweaks
<ajmitch> simple-stopwatch has some other packaging issues that I've talked with stefano about briefly, I'll put them into the bug
<statik> are these both from the same author?
<ajmitch> no, they just have the same first name :)
<wendar> statik: no, different Stefanos
<wendar> for these two, statik's idea of each of us volunteering to work on one package is a good one
<ajmitch> suspended-sentence looks mostly ok, I haven't tested it at all yet
<wendar> ajmitch: would you like to take simple-stopwatch, since you've already been talking to stefano?
<ajmitch> alright
<wendar> I'll continue with SIR, talk with the developer
<wendar> do we have volunteers for Suspended Sentence and Pytask?
<peppe84> emea meeting in 20 minutes, is right?
<statik> i'll volunteer for pytask
<ajmitch> we'll still need to cross-check & vote accordingly once we're happy with them
<statik> yes, absolutely. i think the idea is to work with the developer to get the apps into a state where they are likely to pass the vote
<wendar> peppe84: the Fridge calendar says it's an hour and 20 minutes
<statik> and then once we have a handful of apps that we have done this with, we can document things, and point future submitters to the docs
<ajmitch> statik: agreed, it'll make it easier than going through multiple voting rounds per package
<peppe84> wendar, ok I'm confused with timezone. sorry at all.
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, this doesn't qualify as a vote, just a status check on the proposals in the queue
<wendar> ajmitch: voting when we feel it's certain enough that we can vote
<m4n1sh> peppe84: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA tells 20UTC and Fridge says 21UTC
<stgraber> EMEA is in 15 minutes
<ajmitch> we'd better finish up quickly then
<stgraber> the fridge is wrong (as usual) :)
 * stgraber is on both ARB and EMEA
<wendar> no volunteer for Suspended Sentence, but I can take it if no one else does
<peppe84> lol
<wendar> peppe84: will make a note to get Fridge corrected while I'm adding ARB to it
<ajmitch> it's only fagan missing, and with only 4 packages to look at it's ok :)
<statik> wendar: yeah i can only commit to doing one app this round, sorry
<wendar> that's all the packages to review
<wendar> statik: one is perfect
<wendar> statik: and I'm pretty much done with SIR, so can easily take another
<stgraber> wendar: I guess I can take it, I'm a bit short on time recently but it seems to already be mostly good
 * statik high-fives stgraber
<ajmitch> stgraber: thanks
<wendar> stgraber: cool
<wendar> final topic
<wendar> [TOPIC] Wiki Location
<MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki Location
<wendar> we don't currently have a standard location to put information about the ARB, agendas, dev help for the process, etc
<wendar> I suggest we adopt http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppRevieBoard/...
<wendar> er, AppReviewBoard, that is
<ajmitch> sounds good to me
<stgraber> sounds good
<statik> +1
<wendar> great, will start filling things in there
<wendar> that's all for this meeting, thanks all
<wendar> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:49.
<mvo> thanks!
<statik> wendar: i'd love to get a copy of the changes you made for SIR
<ajmitch> I was about to say, are there any tools that could be useful for reviewing?
<statik> and this page was somehow new to me https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/Metadata , did you all already know about it?
 * ajmitch was thinking of setting up a separate revu instance if it'd be useful
<wendar> statik: I'll post in my PPA, it's a combination of patches to the package and changes to the packaging
<statik> cool, thx
<wendar> statik: yes, the Metadata affected the TB proposal too
<wendar> ajmitch: I'm not sure, is revu too heavyweight for this?
<statik> wendar: thanks again for getting us organized. i'll see you all on the mailing list
<wendar> statik: thanks! ttyl
<ajmitch> wendar: it's mostly for the automated lintian checks, license checks that we can each do ourselves
<wendar> ajmitch: we can try it out, if it's not a bit hassle to set up
<wendar> *big
<ajmitch> not particularly, I need to finish moving the main revu instance anyway, I've been putting that off
<ajmitch> we can discuss on mailing list
 * ajmitch needs to head off to work soon 
<wendar> good idea
 * wendar out
<stgraber> thanks everyone
 * stgraber takes a 5 minutes break before EMEA
<popey> ola
<leoquant> hi popey
<ronnie_vd_c> hi popey
<ricotz> popey, hi
 * stgraber waves
 * Yaron-Heb says hi!
<stefano-palazzo> hello everyone
 * popey will be 1 minute
<popey> I'll chair
<czajkowski> aloha
<stgraber> highvoltage: ^
<victorp> hola
<czajkowski> are we quorum ?
<peppe84> hi all
<stgraber> nope, calling highvoltage on his cell
<mjeanson> hi
<czajkowski> ok lets sort that first before we go any further drubin is meant to be late, no word from ogra
<stgraber> highvoltage will be there any second now
<stgraber> just got him on the phone
<popey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:06. The chair is popey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<highvoltage> sorry, I thought the meeting was an hour later!
<stgraber> don
<stgraber> don't believe the fridge
<pleia2> I'm getting the fridge calendar updated, sorry about that :)
<popey> We'll go through that list and we will ask each individual to say a few words, then we'll ask some questions
<czajkowski> sounds good thanks
<popey> finally we'll vote on each persons membership. Please try to be prompt with responses, we have a big list to get through.
<peppe84> I was wrong I also...
<popey> Who is here from the EMEA board?
<seiflotfy> hello hello
<popey> o/
<czajkowski> o/
<highvoltage> o/
<stgraber> czajkowski, popey, highvoltage and I (at least)
<peppe84> o/
<wendar> pleia2/stgraber: fridge fixed
<stgraber> wendar: rocks!
<popey> right then, lets get started...
<popey> ronnie_vd_c: ping
<popey> are you there?
<ronnie_vd_c> yes im here
<ronnie_vd_c> lets introduce myself
<popey> [topic] ronnie_vd_c
<MootBot> New Topic:  ronnie_vd_c
<ronnie_vd_c> Hallo, im Ronnie van den Crommenacker better known as ronnie.vd.c or ronnie_vd_c
<ronnie_vd_c> Born and still living in the Netherlands
<ronnie_vd_c> Since 2006 an active Ubuntu user. After a few months of help on the dutch forums, i started to give the first support myself
<ronnie_vd_c> My activity has grown in the past and is still growing.
<ronnie_vd_c> Im actively involved in the Dutch LoCo team,
<ronnie_vd_c> From 2009 and still am the leader of the dutch Artwork team, but i also do great jobs on the documentation, server and promotion team
<ronnie_vd_c> Last months, i started also to look more international and hope to help there as well
<ronnie_vd_c> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ronnie.vd.c (for those who did not read them yet)
<popey> Is anyone here to cheer for ronnie_vd_c ?
<highvoltage> ronnie_vd_c: one person commented on your wiki page that ubuntu-nl wouldn't look as good as it does if it wasn't for you. are they referring to the website?
<RawChid>  Yes, go ronnie_vd_c!
<johanvd> ronnie_vd_c, \o/
<UndiFineD> \o/
<Nunslaughter> popey: I am :)
<Thomas_de_Graaff> Yes, thumbs up for ronnie!
<ronnie_vd_c> testcees....
<testcees> \o/
<leoquant> ronnie_vd_c,  go!
<popey> well, thats good to see :)
<rulus> yes, \o/ for ronnie
<czajkowski> nice wiki page and good testimonals
<RawChid> I think that person was referring to the artwork-stuff ronnie_vd_c did highvoltage
<ronnie_vd_c> too bad sense couldnt make it to the meeting
<JanC> I can say ronnie_vd_c has been very helpful inside ubuntu-nl
<Tjibba> Go ronnie_vd_c !!
<Nunslaughter> I would like to add the great work Ronnie is doing for the new forum theme to keep in line with the new Ubuntu looks
<MichealH> Sorry Im late
<popey> ok, do any of the emea board have any questions?
<ronnie_vd_c> highvoltage: the looking good is not yet refferrd to the theme on the website, but i guess more in terms of leadership etc
<highvoltage> ronnie_vd_c: ok
<ronnie_vd_c> but i hope the new forum theme will be ready soon (demo at: http://rachidbm.com/ubuntu-nl/)
<ronnie_vd_c> most of the design is my work, but i got some help from RawChid and some others
<popey> any more questions from the board?
<JanC> ronnie_vd_c has also been one of the people who showed to be able to separate emotions from important things during some recent conflicts inside ubuntu-nl
<stgraber> I'm good
<highvoltage> same
<popey> ok, lets vote
<popey> [vote] EMEA Board members only please vote on ubuntu membership of ronnie_vd_c
<MootBot> Please vote on:  EMEA Board members only please vote on ubuntu membership of ronnie_vd_c.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<highvoltage> +1 [ good loco contributions over time ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> keep up the good work
<Tjibba> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Tjibba. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<RawChid> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from RawChid. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<czajkowski> only council members vote please
<czajkowski> RawChid: Tjibba please stop
<popey> grrr!
<RawChid> Sorry
<czajkowski> only council members vote
<Tjibba> ow sorry :(
<popey> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<popey> looks good anyway, congratulations ronnie_vd_c
<ronnie_vd_c> Thanks stgraber, highvoltage, popey, czajkowski and all my supporters :D
<RawChid> Congratz ronnie_vd_c
<highvoltage> ronnie_vd_c: congratulations and welcome!
<Nunslaughter> good job ronnie_vd_c! :)
<leoquant> congrats!
<popey> now, my son is throwing up, I really need to leave my pc for a bit, can someone else take over please?
<popey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:17.
<MichealH> Well done ronnie_vd_c
<popey> you will need to start the meeting again
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:18. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
* czajkowski changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Michael Jeanson
<mjeanson> ok my turn
<czajkowski> mjeanson: you're up
<stgraber> czajkowski: ouch ;)
<stgraber> czajkowski: I guess you wanted [TOPIC] :)
<mjeanson> Hi, I'm Michael Jeanson from the cold Quebec, Canada
<czajkowski> stgraber: yes
<mjeanson> I'm a system administrator and I've been running ubuntu in production since dapper
<czajkowski> [topic] mjeanson
<MootBot> New Topic:  mjeanson
<mjeanson> I'm interrested in all things server related and I've contributed some SRUs and backports
<mjeanson> I hope to put more time on SRUs since I think it's were ubuntu server needs a lot more involment
<highvoltage> mjeanson: looking at https://launchpad.net/~mjeanson/+related-software - it looks like you did a really good job at providing patches, and then earlier this year you seem to have stopped. what happened?
<czajkowski> mjeanson: so ca you tel us about your involvment
<mjeanson> depending on the project I'm involved at work I get more or less time to contribute
<mjeanson> czajkowski: packaging is my main area of interrest
<czajkowski> mjeanson: so as highvoltage asks you were contributing for a while then stopped
<mjeanson> I've also been helping upstream to package their software according to ubuntu guideline and hope to get them included once it's ready
<highvoltage> mjeanson: you should've mentioned that on your wiki page! which upstream(s)?
<mjeanson> highvoltage: shinken a distributed monitoring system
<mjeanson> czajkowski: it depends on the projects I have at work, I've been very busy lately :)
<highvoltage> popey: back yet?
<czajkowski> mjeanson: how would you see things improving in the future ?
<mjeanson> czajkowski: SRUs SRUS SRUs that's what the server platform needs and that's what I want to do
<mjeanson> mostly on the LTS releases
 * highvoltage has no more questions
<JanC> mjeanson: you mean SRUs for more packages in universe?
* Pici changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Google Calendar doesn't understand UTC.  Please check in UTC time and confirm meeting times on the fridge
<czajkowski> Pici: thanks
<Pici> czajkowski: np
<mjeanson> JanC: Universe and main
<mjeanson> JanC: most of the server packages are in main
<stgraber> I'll be mentoring mjeanson over the next few weeks to get most of the fixes that we have in our PPA into the distro as an effort to make the server platform more reliable and production ready
<czajkowski> ok
<stgraber> work will be mostly focused on LTS releases though if the fix is easy enough to apply, I'll encourage for it to be applied to all other supported releases too
<czajkowski> we can't vote atm as we're now down a vote unless drubin or ogra have arrived
<highvoltage> yeah mjeanson uploads lots of fixes and updates to ppa's wich he should work more on getting into the archives!
<mjeanson> highvoltage: I hope the new SRUs process will help with that
 * popey returns
<czajkowski> welcome
<stgraber> yeah, popey !
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the membership of mjeanson . ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of mjeanson . ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<popey> nice testimonials :)
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<highvoltage> +1 [ bug fixing work and I want to see more!!! ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<czajkowski> well done mjeanson
<mjeanson> thanks everyone
<stgraber> mjeanson: welcome aboard!
<highvoltage> mjeanson: congratulations and welcome!
<leoquant> congrats mjeanson
<MichealH> Congrats mjeanson
<Yaron-Heb> Congrats mjeanson
 * popey adds mjeanson and ronnie_vd_c to ~ubuntumembers
<m4n1sh> COngrats mjeanson
<moshe742> congrats mjeanson
<czajkowski> [topic] Manish Sinha
<MootBot> New Topic:  Manish Sinha
<czajkowski> m4n1sh: you're up next
<seiflotfy> goooooooo manish
<m4n1sh> Hi all
<m4n1sh> I am Manish Sinha from Bangalore, India.
<m4n1sh> I have been using Ubuntu since 2006 as my primary OS. I have been helping spreading Ubuntu for last 4 years.
<m4n1sh> I found Linux User's Group in my College and led it all the time when I was doing my graduation in Engineering
<m4n1sh> I have installed Ubuntu on most of my famly and relative's computer and most of my friends use Ubuntu due to my constant efforts
<m4n1sh> During college I organized Ubuntu Install fests with fellow friends
<m4n1sh> and LUG members. Ubuntu is a well know name in the campus. Sort of synonymous with Linux. Effort paid off
<highvoltage> m4n1sh: I'd like to hear about your extremist views on freedom. what makes it extreme?
<m4n1sh> highvoltage: well, well knee jerk reactions
<m4n1sh> I have faced a lot such during college days
<m4n1sh> in LUG
<m4n1sh> my views are not extremist
<m4n1sh> when did I say that
<m4n1sh> " I don't have an extremist view of Freedom, but keep a bit mild on the views."
<m4n1sh> going ahead
<highvoltage> that, yes
<highvoltage> ah, right, I misread, ok
<m4n1sh> Given talk on Launchpad in Pycon India 2010 to help people understand Ubuntu development using Launchpad
<highvoltage> well, this looks like an easy one for me, I was thinking +1 before even getting to the testimonials :)
<m4n1sh> also gave presentation on the launchpad API for prospective developers
<m4n1sh> :)
<czajkowski> ok so trying to keep things moving, does anyone have anything ele to ask
<m4n1sh> I am one of the developers of apt-offline which is offline package management application
<czajkowski> else
<m4n1sh> i was mentored by Ritesh Raj Saraff, a Debian Developer
<m4n1sh> right now I am involved mostly in Zeitgeist project
<seiflotfy> I can testify for that
<m4n1sh> esp since Unity is using zeitgeist
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the membership of m4n1sh. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE!!!
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of m4n1sh. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE!!!.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<m4n1sh> I am writing dataproviders for applications to push events in the daemon
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<seiflotfy> go m4nish
<highvoltage> +1 [ great work all round on technical level and in local promotion ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<seiflotfy> he pushed his banshee work upstream
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<popey> thanks for cheering on seiflotfy :)
<seiflotfy> hi popey
<seiflotfy> long time
<seiflotfy> :)
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<seiflotfy> now a cheer for popey
<seiflotfy> +100000000000000000
<czajkowski> well done m4n1sh m4n1sh
<popey> yay
<ricotz> m4n1sh, congrats :)
<Yaron-Heb> Congrats m4n1sh!!!
<MichealH> Welll done m4n1sh
 * popey adds manishsinha to ~ubuntumembers
<m4n1sh> czajkowski: ricotz Yaron-Heb thanks
<m4n1sh> MichealH: thanks
<czajkowski> [topic] Cees Sluis
<MootBot> New Topic:  Cees Sluis
<MichealH> m4n1sh: No Probs
<czajkowski> testcees: you're up
<testcees> hello all
<victorp> m4n1sh tumba congratulations!
<UndiFineD> \o/
<highvoltage> m4n1sh: congratulations and welcome!
<johanvd> testcees \o/
<popey> nice testimonials testcees
<testcees> please look at my wiki.
<czajkowski> testcees: so care to tell us about yourself please
<ronnie_vd_c> \o/
<testcees> I work for a long time now on Dutch documentation
<RawChid> Go testcees !
<testcees> for Ubuntu.
<leoquant> testcees go!
<Thomas_de_Graaff> \o/
<czajkowski> there seems to be a massive push on ubunt membership in the NL :)
<testcees> And try to get other users get involved in writing and editing documentation
<Tjibba> Go testcees ! :)
<highvoltage> testcees: what's your long-term plans for ubuntu?
<UndiFineD> sorry laura ;)
<testcees> Make the LoCo Ubuntu-nl more organised
<ronnie_vd_c> czajkowski: sense did do his job well as new loco contact ;)
<testcees> try to get local people to contribute to ubuntu
<testcees> we just started a new beginners team and hope this get us more help because native language documentation is important for many Dutch/Belgian users
<testcees> and i'll ofcourse keep editing and adding our Dutch Ubuntu wiki.
<highvoltage> great, I don't have any more questions
<popey> ok.
<JanC> I can vouch for testcees more or less in the same way as for ronnie_vd_c: a valuable contributor in several ways, who also helps to solve conflicts instead of creating them...
 * popey tickles czajkowski 
<czajkowski> popey: back
<leoquant> testcees is active for several years for ubuntu-nl
<rulus> I'd like to cheer for testcees, he is an awesome guy and does amazing work on the Dutch documentation (and lots of it)! \o/
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the testcees membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE!!
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the testcees membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE!!.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<czajkowski> very easy keep up the good work
<highvoltage> +1 [ good testimonials from well-known Dutch team members and great work on documentation and loco teams ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<popey> awesome work!
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<czajkowski> well done
<highvoltage> testcees: congratulations and welcome!
<popey> Yay!
<popey> keep up the great work
<testcees> ok, thank you all
<Tjibba> Congratz testcees !
<czajkowski> [topic] Yaron Shahrabani
<MootBot> New Topic:  Yaron Shahrabani
<Yaron-Heb> Congrats testcees
<leoquant> \o/
<czajkowski> Yaron-Heb: you're up next
<popey> added testcees to ~ubuntumembers
<moshe742> Congrats testcees
<Yaron-Heb> Yeah... thanks âº
<czajkowski> Yaron-Heb: so tell us about yourself polease
<czajkowski> please
<Yaron-Heb> No problem!
<Yaron-Heb> Hi there! My name is Yaron, I'm 25 years old and I was born and still live in Israel,
<Yaron-Heb> I'm an active member of the Israeli Ubuntu LoCo since 2007 and the Hebrew translation team leader since 2008,
<Yaron-Heb> Due to some recent misunderstanding in the Ubuntu LoCo I can to bridge between both sides thus letting the new LoCo and acces to the forum database(held by the former LoCo),
<Yaron-Heb> My latest work on Wine translation helped improve the support for RTL languages in general, Wine has a working Hebrew version (still need a little work but its not up to me âº).
<Yaron-Heb> You can find more details about me at my wikipage: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Yaron and my LP account: https://launchpad.net/~sh-yaron
<Yaron-Heb> I can -> I came / I managed
<popey> Yaron-Heb: what's Gezer?
<Yaron-Heb> Its a project aiming at improving the Hebrew standards in Localization
<popey> ooo..
 * popey clicks the "translate" button in chrome and now knows more about it
<popey> Oh, gezer = carrot? :)
<Yaron-Heb> Making Hebrew computing nicer and more accessible
<moshe742> yeah
<Yaron-Heb> Indeed âº
<czajkowski> Yaron-Heb: so you mentioned some of the issues, how do you plan to help the loco in the future
<Yaron-Heb> I always did, why stop now?
<czajkowski> Yaron-Heb: what are your plans though?
 * drubin wonders in very late and apolgizes
<Yaron-Heb> I want to keep the community up by tech supporting, localizing, graphics and every way I can like I did until now
<popey> Yaron-Heb: what happens in the Ubuntu-rtl team, it seems quiet?
<popey> do we have no RTL bugs? :)
<Yaron-Heb> We are collecting the bugs in order to find similar patterns, currently we need programmers in many programming languages to solve them
<popey> I guess you have more work with Unity coming?
<Yaron-Heb> Resources we don't have but we do promote them
<Ddorda> âczajkowski: may i add, Yaron-Heb is one the best translators (if not the best one) in our LoCo, he does a extremely hard work and got many people to the translation and l10n subject. i support him by 100% to be an Ubuntu member
<popey> thanks Ddorda
<Yaron-Heb> Yeah, lots of it! Thanks Ddorda!
<popey> I have no more questions
<Yaron-Heb> Thank you!
 * highvoltage is good
 * stgraber too
<Yaron-Heb> Any further questions? âº
<ricotz> Yaron-Heb, good translation work on Docky btw :)
<highvoltage> czajkowski?
<Yaron-Heb> Thank you!! I appreciate it
<moshe742> I can say he is always willing to help anyone that needs it and not only on translation problems, i support him completely
<MichealH> czajkowski: Everyones ready?
<popey> you've got some great support here Yaron-Heb
<Yaron-Heb> Thanks alot moshe742!!
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on Yaron-Heb membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE/
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on Yaron-Heb membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE/.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<popey> great work!
<Yaron-Heb> Thanks!!
<highvoltage> +1 [ great translation effort and good feedback all round ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<drubin> +1 [Looks good and great feed back]
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<charlie-tca> Congratulations, ronnie_vd_c, mjeanson, m4n1sh, testcees, and Yaron-Heb y
<ronnie_vd_c> thx charlie-tca
<highvoltage> congratulations and welcome, Yaron-Heb!
<Yaron-Heb> Thanks a lot charlie-tca!
<m4n1sh> Yaron-Heb: congrats
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Ddorda> âYaron-Heb: congratz pal :)
<MichealH> Caongrats Yaron-Heb
<charlie-tca> mis triggered
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<moshe742> Yaron-Heb, congrats, i know you deserve it:)
<popey> congrats
<Yaron-Heb> Thank you all!
 * popey adds Yaron-Heb to ~ubuntumembers
<czajkowski> [topic] Giuseppe Terrasi
<MootBot> New Topic:  Giuseppe Terrasi
<czajkowski> peppe84: you're up next
<peppe84> yes i'm here
<peppe84> i'am giuseppe terrasi aka peppe84, an italian locoteam member.
<peppe84> I joined Ubuntu on December 2005 with Ubuntu 5.10.
<peppe84> I started to contribute to early 2006 in Documentation Italian Team and Marketing Italian Team.
<peppe84> In past I have contribute in Italian Marketing Team (first nucleus of person)
<peppe84> in the Italian Newsletter (co-founder) and in the Italian Spread Ubuntu Project (founder)
<peppe84> Now I'm an Administrator of Ubuntu Italian Documentation Team : http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GruppoAdmin
 * stgraber has to run, sorry
<popey> thanks stgraber !
<peppe84> and I have the italian membership: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-it-members
<peppe84> For all detail, please see my personal page:
<peppe84> intl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GiuseppeTerrasi
<peppe84> it: http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/GiuseppeTerrasi
<peppe84> LP: https://launchpad.net/~giuseppeterrasi
<peppe84> I have finish.
<highvoltage> peppe84: are any of the people you have worked with today present now?
<peppe84> no italian member in this channel, I think...
<peppe84> perhaps Claudinux but is away?
<czajkowski> ok there is a meeting on now
<czajkowski> so we need to wrap this up
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on peppe84 membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on peppe84 membership. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> highvoltage: ping
<highvoltage> czajkowski: pong
<czajkowski> vote
<czajkowski> please :)
<highvoltage> I'm still deciding
<peppe84> highvoltage, ask me if you would ;-)
<highvoltage> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<highvoltage> peppe84: congratulations and welcome!
<peppe84> highvoltage, thanks
<czajkowski> unfortunately we need to cute the meeting short as the CC is up next
<peppe84> thanks at all ;-)
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:08.
<charlie-tca> Congratulations, peppe84
<peppe84> thanks charlie-tca
<MichealH> czajkowski: When will we continue the meeting?
<m4n1sh> congrats peppe84
<ricotz> czajkowski, can we move to another channel?
<peppe84> m4n1sh, to you too :-)
<highvoltage> sorry to those we couldn't get to, seems like this meeting was bad timeing for some EMEA board members, please attend the next one!
 * drubin added peppe84  to ~ubuntumembers
<czajkowski> next month
<czajkowski> our meeting is only 1 hour long and we've already gone over.
<ricotz> czajkowski, so another channel is no option? :(
<czajkowski> no not really
<czajkowski> so next month.
<victorp> ooh :)
<czajkowski> council members have had to gto
<czajkowski> go
<drubin> See you guys back again next month.
<highvoltage> ah I thought you missed an 'f' in there
<pleia2> ok everyone, starting a bit late but Community Council meeting is now :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:11. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> stgraber: do you happen to be around?
<pleia2> err
<czajkowski> pleia2: he had to leave
<pleia2> sladen:
<pleia2> sorry :)
<pleia2> (darn tab in big channels)
<Ddorda> âpleia2: is it going to be interesting or i shouldn't follow? :P
<pleia2> Ddorda: everyone is welcome :)
<Ddorda> âokie dokie :)
<pleia2> but we don't have an agenda and not many folks are here, so I think it'll be a short meeting
<pleia2> the only thing on the agenda is from several months back, not sure if it's still open: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<MichealH> I can get involved?
<pleia2> the redirect referenced in the bug was put in place, but I think there was more to it that sladen can expand upon
<pleia2> MichealH: involved with what?
<highvoltage> is sladen around?
<MichealH> pleia2: The meeeting! But I have been told to observe
<Ddorda> âMichealH: [23:12] <pleia2> Ddorda: everyone is welcome :)
<pleia2> ok, no more agenda items, but I did want to mention that there have been some complaints about the CC not actually having these regular meetings and not doing team reports, so I wanted to speak to that quickly
<pleia2> we've lacked an agenda for several months, so meetings haven't taken place
<pleia2> team reports are a similar reflection of this, no agenda items and meetings, no reports
<pleia2> however, we have decided that since there ARE public things we do (like board restaffing and CoC changes) we will start adding these to a team report
<pleia2> that's all I've got :)
<Ddorda> âpleia2: may i ask when was the last CoC changes? we translated the CoC and i want to make sure it is still updated
<pleia2> if you do have public things you want to bring to the community council at a meeting, please feel free to check out the history of our Agenda page to see what kinds of things people have added in the past, you're welcome to add your own
<pleia2> Ddorda: october 2009
<Ddorda> âoh, so i guess it is updated. thanks :)
<pleia2> sure :)
<pleia2> ok, I think we'll just wrap things up, feel free to nudge me if you have any questions
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:22.
<Technoviking> sorry for being late, Oracle problem
<Technoviking> d'oh
 * maco snorts
<highvoltage> thanks pleia2
<pleia2> Technoviking: anything to add?
<Technoviking> pleia2: not here
<ricotz> highvoltage, any chance to continue the emea meeting if the board member are still around?
<drubin> ricotz: No. We don't have all the members and it isn't the meeting slot. Sorry
<ricotz> drubin, alright, i am not sure if i can be around for the next one
<drubin> ricotz: We have them every month.
<drubin> bye
<Ddorda> âricotz: the next meeting is on jan 4th
<ricotz> Ddorda, yes, i know ;-), that is why i know that i might be not around
<highvoltage> ricotz: I guess you'll be able to make it in February then
<ricotz> highvoltage, ok
<Ddorda> âdrubin: circumstances, is it possible to consider him in the next meeting even though, if, he won't be around?
<pleia2> ricotz: if you're able to make the meeting time of either the Americas (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas) or Asia/Pacific (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania) boards you're welcome to apply to those
<pleia2> the boards are regional to cater to different time zones, but it doesn't prevent folks from applying for different boards if they are able to attend at the meeting time :)
<pleia2> next one is Americas, Friday, December 17th, 2010 at 01:00:00 UTC
 * popey returns
<popey> thanks pleia2
<sladen> pleia2: highvoltage: oops, I was overcome by sleep at just the wrong monent!
<pleia2> sladen: no worries, it was just an old agenda item I was checking in on :) hope you got the rest you needed
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-08
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> o/
<ev> hiya
<jhunt> hi
<robbiew> cjwatson: is ill today
<robbiew> psurbhi is still on holiday (family visit in India)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> ev:?
<ev> At the QA sprint all week. Gave a presentation on the installer testing netbook farm and hudson yesterday, helping people build out their own test frameworks from this, going to give a talk at the Rally about it per cjwatson's approval.
<ev> Working on adding bootchart support to the installer testing work, and building some sikuli graphical tests to run on it. Sitting in on user testing of the website today and tomorrow. Had a meeting with Ivanka about the "replace Ubuntu install, preserving applications and settings" option that grew into a chat about the entire automatic partitioning page.
<ev> She's going to work on a proposed design for the Rally. Verifying new USB disks for the shop for Cezzaine.
<ev> done!
<robbiew> ev: thnx...find a place to live yet?
<robbiew> or should I expense a cot for you in Millbank
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> ...guess he didn't find my joke that funny
<robbiew> mvo: ?
<ev> robbiew: lol, yes
<ev> all sorted
<ev> sorry, the Internet connection here is a bit flaky
<mvo> deploy *much* more responsive changelogs extractor for changelogs.ubuntu.com (for all practical purposes there should be never a "no changelog available yet" message anymore);
<mvo> alpha1: app-install-data update; SRU msttcorefonts EULA #670629;
<mvo> Updated conflictchecker for maverick and natty; Upload vmbuilder bzr snapshot
<mvo> update-manager: fix maverick->natty, lp:~mvo/update-manager/use-screen-in-text-frontend; add firewall information on the server upgrade, final touches for screen support in the text-dist-upgrader, merge lp:~kelemeng/update-manager/bug633036
<mvo> software-center: add spellchecker to the submit/report abse, make reapply cursor selection work again, merge lp:~mvo/software-center/apthistory-pickle-cache, merge experimental-fastlist, sponsor SRU for 3.0.7 (#673991), play with lp:~mvo/software-center/sentinel-mode (auto detect UI blocks), work on reviews client
<mvo> (done)
 * robbiew anxiously awaits R-n-R to magically appear in s-c
<robbiew> thnx mvo
<mvo> if you run natty, you should *really* see a differnce by e..g clicking on the system category
<mvo> speedwise
<robbiew> oh yeah...I have
<mvo> we made some good progress, from ~5s to instant :)
<robbiew> sweet
<robbiew> jhunt:?
<jhunt> Got lp:#672614 fixed upstream. Natty daily testing. Writing a "clone"
<jhunt> sys-call app to make dev+test with upstart easier. More upstart man-page
<jhunt> documentation. Finalized upstart spec with keybuk+cjwatson yesterday in
<jhunt> London re upstart.  My part of the spec is now on the wiki.
<jhunt> currently working on the new "debug" stanza.
<jhunt> EOT
<robbiew> \o/ on bug #67261
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 67261 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.17 (Ubuntu) "Problems with ATI fglrx driver" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67261
<robbiew> damn it...and bug #672614
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672614 in tracker (Ubuntu) "tracker-status-icon registers obsolete Ctrl-Alt-S shortcut" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672614
<robbiew> and a huge *\o/* + whoohoo on upstart workitems :P
<mvo> nice
<jhunt> yeah - I'm surprised more people aren't affected. Maybe that tells us something about emacs usage :)
<mvo> or people removing tracker ;)
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> no comment
<robbiew> jhunt: thx
<robbiew> doko:?
<doko> python2.7
<doko> done
<Keybuk> jhunt: I use emacs ... :p
<ScottK> fsvo done.
<Keybuk> admittedly, I've never used the C-M-s  shortcut before
<robbiew> fsvo?
<jhunt> :)
 * mvo googles fsvo
<barry> as do i. i always go into isearch then toggle to regexp if i need it
<mvo> urban dictonary ftw
<barry> C-s C-t
<robbiew> doko: thnx
<robbiew> barry:?
<barry> % wtf fsvo
<barry> FSVO: for some value of
<barry> py27 ftbfs: 683182 (graphviz), 685127 (guppy)y, 685180 (sphinx problems, inprogress).  patch pilot.  debian packaging work.  bug 683486 for lp.  udd workflow.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 683486 in Launchpad Registry "spurious test failures regarding LPModerate and XMLRPCRunner" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/683486
<barry> py27 ftbfs will be my life for the next few months
<mvo> go barry go
<robbiew> "udd workflow"
<robbiew> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-foundations-n-distributed-development-review-and-planning
<barry> let's hope they're not all as "fun" as nipy
<robbiew> eh hem
<mvo> I'm happy to help with the py2.7 ones too
<barry> robbiew: right, right.  yes.  i'll fill some thing out there and get poolie to review
<robbiew> ;)
<barry> mvo: awesome.  nipy is fun because it builds fine in my sbuild, and fails three different ways in pbuilder, ppa, buildds
<robbiew> barry: thank you sir!
<robbiew> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> done: lots of work on temporal events for 0.10, which turns out to be great fun
<Keybuk> I have a tool that you can ask things like "when is the next time that Friday 13th occurs in an even-numbered year?"
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> deathspank:Timestuff scott$ MDAYS=13 WDAYS=FR YEARS=0/2 ./nexttime
<Keybuk> Now is                     Wed Dec  8 16:17:52 GMT 2010	(1291825072)
<Keybuk> After days of month        Mon Dec 13 00:00:00 GMT 2010	(1292198400)
<Keybuk> After years                Mon Dec 13 00:00:00 GMT 2010	(1292198400)
<Keybuk> After days of week         Fri Dec 17 00:00:00 GMT 2010	(1292544000)
<Keybuk> After days of month        Thu Jan 13 00:00:00 GMT 2011	(1294876800)
<Keybuk> After years                Fri Jan 13 00:00:00 GMT 2012	(1326412800)
<Keybuk> After days of week         Fri Jan 13 00:00:00 GMT 2012	(1326412800)
<Keybuk> so that's good fun
<Keybuk> also done: met with James and we sorted out the division of work for Upstart in natty
<Keybuk> and also done: we actually have most of a spec written \o/
<Keybuk> --
<robbiew> http://daysuntil.com/Friday-the-13th/index.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://daysuntil.com/Friday-the-13th/index.html
<robbiew> ...just sayin
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
<robbiew> so I see we don't have a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<Keybuk> robbiew: yeah, it's not hard or mysterious, but the algorithms only exist in pieces
<Keybuk> e.g. there's an algorithm for resolving week days, or months
<Keybuk> but not one for both
<Keybuk> so it's the combination of everything ;)
<robbiew> ah..fair'nuf
<robbiew> as for the wiki page, I'll try to create one today
<robbiew> then I can properly nag people about features and bugs
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> the problem with actively managing 3 develop teams...is that I'm actively managing 3 development teams!
<robbiew> I know very little about a whole lot, atm
<robbiew> :/
<robbiew> but sorting this all out soon...I hpoe
<robbiew> and hope
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/Good News?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/Good News?
<robbiew> ev has a place to live \o/
<robbiew> lol
<ev> hooray!
<ev> my life is sorted until at least January :)
<robbiew> ha ha
 * robbiew puts a cot on order
<ev> :)
<robbiew> ev: who knows...maybe our new offices will have napping pods :P
<mvo> searches in s-c are *much* faster now
<mvo> and changelogs.ubuntu.com updates instantly
<mvo> (well, almost ;)
<robbiew> whoohoo...the search is pretty cool, tbh
<robbiew> I was installing software on my wife's new laptop
<robbiew> in 10.10
<robbiew> and noticed the change in natty
<robbiew> subtle...but nice ;)
<mvo> :) for really large searches its not so suble, but for most searches (~1000 entries) the old versions were doing very well. but now its instant for 30k items as well
<mvo> s/suble/subtle
<robbiew> good point
<robbiew> anything else?
<robbiew> once.....
<robbiew> twice...
<ScottK> Qt builds on arm now.
<ScottK> thanks to gcc getting fixed.
<robbiew> \o/
<robbiew> sweet
<robbiew> that should allow for Unity...I think :/
<robbiew> done!
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:30.
<robbiew> thanks all
<barry> thanks robbiew
<ScottK> Actually worked around, but I don't care the difference.
<robbiew> ScottK: yeah...I figured as much ;)
<mvo> thanks
<ev> robbiew: with any luck
<ev> and thanks
<mhall119> o/
<highvoltage> hello
<highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting time, who else besides mhall119 is present? :)
<dinda> 0/
<highvoltage> all I really have to update on is that I uploaded the gartoon-redux icon theme. I talked to the author and he said he'll prioritise any icons that's missing in Edubuntu
<highvoltage> I'll poke him a big about the folder icons, they're still a bit annoying. if that's fixed it could be quite a good icon theme for young kdis
<highvoltage> I replaced the old gartoon theme with gartoon-redux in edubuntu too
<highvoltage> and tested yesterdays daily build, it seems ok, we have the slideshow back although I still need to update it
<highvoltage> for the next few days the only ubuntu work I've got planned is reviewing some zope packages for Schooltool, and mhall119's xdg-launcher package
<dinda> so schooltool is planned to be included in Natty?
<mhall119> \o/
<mhall119> highvoltage: how long do I have to push new versions of xdg-launcher?
<highvoltage> dinda: yep, there's a good chance of it making it in this time
<dinda> nice!
<highvoltage> mhall119: what do you mean?
<mhall119> it's on 0.0.2 right now, and pretty rough
<mhall119> there's still a lot of code work to go into it
<highvoltage> mhall119: it works right?
<mhall119> sometimes ;)
 * charlie-tca is late, but here too
<mhall119> it works on ubuntu/gnome, but not Xfce or qimo-session
<mhall119> because, evidently, they use different xdg menus
<mhall119> :(
<highvoltage> mhall119: heh, ok. well I think when it more or less works, then it should get uploaded (sounds like now is a good time already though), and then after that we should just make sure you have upload rights for that package. are you a membed of edubuntu-dev yet?
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: not yet, haven't had a quorum
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: we're probably not going with faenza anymore, just because pretty much everyone else is doing it :)
<mhall119> wait, it edubuntu-dev a member position?
<charlie-tca> heh
<highvoltage> mhall119: that should be fixed quite soon
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu will go with it
<highvoltage> mhall119: I suggest just applying for both at the same time
<mhall119> highvoltage: I'm already an Ubuntu member
<highvoltage> (brb)
<mhall119> highvoltage: I'm not on edubuntu-dev
<mhall119> and it's a restricted team, so you'll have to add me
<highvoltage> nixternal: are you around perhaps?
<dinda> highvoltage: what about Moodle 2.0? who I poke to get it packaged?
<mhall119> I have dynamic-sizing on xdg-launcher now, so it'll shrink in height as it grows in width
<stgraber> dinda: hmm, not sure, it proved to need a lot of work maintaining it last time someone wanted to package moodle. I certainly won't have any time to look at it at least.
<stgraber> now if someone else wants to do the work and can commit on maintaining it, especially for security and bugfixes (which are extremelty frequent last time I checked), we might consider having it in Edubuntu again
<dinda> stgraber: I can ask in the Moodle groups if someone will take the maintainer role
<highvoltage> stgraber: I poked you on jabber to poke sbalneav, would be nice if we could get ec quorum and sort out mhall119's request
<stgraber> ideally it'd be nice to have something coordinated with Debian. See what they have there, it'd probably reduce the work quite a lot.
<dinda> I know the Moodle Core contrib coordinator so he may recommend someone
<dinda> that makes sense, having at the Debian level
<mhall119> I thought moodle got a new debain maintainer a while back
<mhall119> I remember getting a bunch of emails on the mailing list
<stgraber> we'll also need someone with good understanding of Ubuntu's security and bugfix policy, as last time I checked, moodle wasn't really doing proper security releases
<stgraber> and instead tend to bundle a lot of unrelated changes
<dinda> I know Remote Learner uses it on their Ubuntu servers so they might be the ones doing the packaging
<stgraber> making it very painful for packagers to extractthe patches and apply that to older releases
<dinda> I'll check with them
<highvoltage> mhall119: I'll send out an email today so that we do it via email. edubuntu-members is free, edubuntu-dev I believe we should vote on, but I'll try to sort that out today. we could then have your launcher as part of the edubuntu package set and you should then have upload rights to it once it's in the archives
<mhall119> highvoltage: cool, thanks
<stgraber> mhall119: if they do, then maybe we've got hope of having something that's well enough maintained to actually be shippable on the DVD without the security team and release team poking edubuntu-release regularly for unfixed security issues :)
<mhall119> can we put the qimo-* packages under edubuntu-dev too?
<highvoltage> mhall119: just add to your wiki page that you're also applying for edubuntu-dev, if you haven't already
<mhall119> highvoltage: to my page?
<highvoltage> mhall119: I can't see why not. it should be fine, right stgraber?
<stgraber> mhall119: we basically need to have it added to a seed
<mhall119> ok
<highvoltage> mhall119: your wiki page, just a sentence saying that you're applying for edubuntu-dev and which packages you're interested in (include the qimo ones and the launcher)
<stgraber> mhall119: so as soon as we start shipping them on the DVD we can poke colin and have it included to our packageset
<highvoltage> dinda: ah, you're applying for edubuntu-members too right? it's not completely clear on the meeting agenda page. if so I can add that to the email ass well
<highvoltage> dinda: you're already an ubuntu member right?
<dinda> highvoltage: yes already an Ubuntu member
<highvoltage> dinda: ok, that makes it easy
<mhall119> highvoltage: updated my wiki page to list packages that I maintain, and also that I'm applying for Edubuntu membership
<highvoltage> mhall119: add that you're applying for edubuntu-dev (or Edubuntu Developers), that's the important part to add since that's the only one requiring a vote technically
<mhall119> ok
<dinda> stgraber: is there some place I can go online to see who the current deb packager for Moodle is?
<mhall119> Original-Maintainer: Moodle Packaging Team <moodle-packaging@catalyst.net.nz>
<mhall119> might try that email
<stgraber> dinda: for Debian, the PTS is probably the place to look at. For Ubuntu, I can quite safely say that it's nobody (or auto-synced from Debian) :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: done
<dinda> mhall119: ok, I know someone who works there so will CC her
<stgraber> it'd be nice if someone could test the package that's in Debian and if it works correctly, then file a sync request
<highvoltage> ok email sent
<mhall119> is the version in debian different from the version in ubuntu?
<stgraber> mhall119: yep
<mhall119> ok
<stgraber> packaging was quite different
<stgraber> now Ubuntu is quite a bit behind
<stgraber> 1.9.4 in Ubuntu vs 1.9.9 in Debian
<stgraber> Ubuntu didn't update the major version since jaunty
<highvoltage> ah, so that's still the packaging that canonical paid for?
<stgraber> highvoltage: I guess so
<stgraber> I dropped it from main to universe with lucid
<stgraber> as we don't ship it anymore and we don't have the requirement for main anyway
<highvoltage> web apps that can't be maintained properly shouldn't be in main anyway, imho :)
<mhall119> charlie-tca: how much do you know about XDG menus?  I may need help getting xdg-launcher to recognize the Xfce configs
<charlie-tca> I don't know much about them
<charlie-tca> I know the menus got a re-write in Xfce4.8
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit will know more about it than me
<mhall119> ok, I'll ask in #xubuntu-dev when I know what questions to ask
<highvoltage> anything else?
<stgraber> nope
<highvoltage> mhall119: I'll be around (although I'm a bit distracted with other stuff atm too) and look at that package between today and tomorrow, it has a needs-packaging bug open already, right?
<mhall119> sure, there's no rush (yet)
<charlie-tca> mhall119: I am still stumbling on some stuff.
<highvoltage> well, let's call it an end to the meeting and move back to #edubuntu
<highvoltage> thanks for joining!
<alkisg> Thanks :)
<highvoltage> stgraber pointed out to me that we did it an hour late
<charlie-tca> ooops?
<highvoltage> heh, indeed
<highvoltage> I guess since a lot of us are in a timezome where we have stupid DST, we didn't really notice
<charlie-tca> heh
<mhall119> yeah, I didn't notice
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-09
<GrueMaster> To all that were planning on attending the Mobile/Arm team meeting today at 15:00 UTC; the meeting has been canceled do to key players' otehr commitments and holiday schedules.  Thank you.
 * charlie-tca waves
<mr_pouit> \o
<charlie-tca> Well, let's get this started, huh?
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * micahg forgot the meeting was in here :-/
<charlie-tca> heh, and I did send a reminder, too
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<cody-somerville> Hi
<charlie-tca> I don't plan on copying all of it right now
<charlie-tca> hello, cody-somerville
<charlie-tca> I see Book_em_Dano too, back there
<Book_em_Dano> wassup
<beardygnome> hi guys, sorry i'm a bit late
<charlie-tca> For those who don't know it yet, Book_em_Dano is working on updating the documentation for Xubunt!
<Book_em_Dano> trying to do the best I can
<charlie-tca> Hello, beardygnome. You're right on time
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca> I did email the developer of LightDM, and got a nice response.
<charlie-tca> He believes it should be ready in time for Natty release, but we have no dates yet on when we can actually try it
<charlie-tca> One note on that, it worked when GDM failed the last 24 hours
<charlie-tca> any questions on LightDM?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates - Team Leads
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates - Team Leads
<knome> (hey all! i'm not really actively here, but trying to follow)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development - mr_pouit
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development - mr_pouit
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, sir
<mr_pouit> eh, ok
<mr_pouit> so, the usual link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Natty/Xfce4.8
<mr_pouit> and for 4.8, the progress this week:
<mr_pouit> * legacy: Uploaded thunar-vfs 1.1.1.
<mr_pouit> * core: Uploaded remaining packages from 4.8~pre1, and all packages from 4.8~pre2.
<mr_pouit> * panel-plugins: ~25 rebuilt, ~17 to go.
<mr_pouit> dailies are still broken because all panel plugins are not rebuilt yet.
<mr_pouit> No other breaking news. :P
<charlie-tca> w00t! gaining rapidly on Natty...
<micahg> mr_pouit: would it help if I grabbed a few of those panel plugins and rebuilt this weekend?
<charlie-tca> GDM was fixed today by the Ubuntu team. logins are working again for Natty
<mr_pouit> micahg: yep, sure (although I said incorrectly "rebuild", because the remaining ones need more work)
<micahg> oh, hmm
<charlie-tca> Any questions for on Packaging and Development ?
<charlie-tca> micahg: don't let that stop you!
<charlie-tca> you can do it
<micahg> mr_pouit: can I just grab and fix then?  Do I need to coordinate w/Debian?
<micahg> I guess we can chat about this after the meeting
<mr_pouit> micahg: yep, let's discuss about that after, so the meeting doesn't last too long :p
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> We are going to invalidate a bunch of bugs with Xfce4.7/8 coming in. Since almost all of the panel code was re-written, those bugs will that still exist will need to be filed as new bugs
<charlie-tca> Stack traces will need to be supplied, and in natty, apport will not work for us, last I heard. Which is okay, since we usually have to run gdb backtraces anyway
<mr_pouit> mmh, apport won't work?
<charlie-tca> I still do not have any powerpc testers. I did send out an email to the users mailing list asking for some.
<charlie-tca> correct, mr_pouit. it's up in the air right now as to whether or not we will be able to use it
<micahg> charlie-tca: just a note that bugs should be checked as to whether or not they are SRUable before invalidating
<charlie-tca> It has been ported to gtk3
<micahg> charlie-tca: I think the decision was not to port major infrastructure to gtk3
<charlie-tca> micahg: they will be, but most of xfce4.7 will not be backported due to the dependencies
<charlie-tca> apport already been done
<micahg> charlie-tca: no, I understand that, but we should be careful to make sure that any bug that's SRU worthy not be closed as the other releases are still supported
<charlie-tca> we will check that as part of the process.
<micahg> charlie-tca: also, re: apport, they might be reversing that soon
<charlie-tca> That's why I said "up in the air" at this point.
<charlie-tca> anything else on bugs and testing?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> ochosi has done a lot of work on greybird  and faenza-xfce icons
<charlie-tca> Please take a look at them if you have time, and give some feedback.
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Natty
<charlie-tca> has the how to do it information at this time
<charlie-tca> I am running Natty with greybird and the faenza-xfce icons, and it great!
<charlie-tca> the wallpaper specs are at
<charlie-tca> [LINK} https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<MootBot> LINK received: [LINK} https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<pleia2> I said a while back that I'd try to touch base with current website folks to get that rolling, but I never made time for that, apologies
<charlie-tca> pleia2: ???
<pleia2> charlie-tca: xubuntu.org is still using our old logo and everything, I had offered to try to get the site changed but haven't yet
<charlie-tca> Oh! Thank you very much
<charlie-tca> For those wanting to find the logo and icons, they are now on
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
<charlie-tca> so you don't have to dig for them. knome did a great job sprucing them up, too
<charlie-tca> artwork - the team wants to know if March 17 is a good cutoff date for submissions. The freeze is March 24
<charlie-tca> Will that give us enough time to select wallpaper, have it fixed as we want, and get in into packaging?
<beardygnome> who will be making the selection?
<charlie-tca> That's a good question.
<charlie-tca> I would hope those who are contributing to Xubuntu. We can vote in the meeting here.
<beardygnome> then maybe we need a little longer?
<charlie-tca> Okay, anyone have an idea how long we need here?
<beardygnome> march 17 and 24 are both thursdays, so we would need a separate meeting to vote on the submissions
<charlie-tca> We will have a meeting on the 10th and 17th with this schedule
<charlie-tca> or, we can do the voting through the mailing list...
<beardygnome> how about we set the cuttoff at march 14 or 15, then vote on march 17?
<beardygnome> at the meeting
<charlie-tca> I like that idea.
<charlie-tca> Anyone else?
<mr_pouit> +1
<beardygnome> that gives the contributor almost a week to fix it before the freeze, if it needs fixing
<charlie-tca> [VOTE] wallpaper  should be ready by March 14, so we can vote on the choice on March 17. Please vote
<MootBot> Please vote on:  wallpaper  should be ready by March 14, so we can vote on the choice on March 17. Please vote.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<charlie-tca> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beardygnome> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<micahg> who has a vote?
<charlie-tca> All in attendance
<micahg> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mr_pouit> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mr_pouit. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<charlie-tca> Any other votes? closing soon
<charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<charlie-tca> With 4 votes, I will notify the artwork group that we need to set the date March 14 to close submissions
<charlie-tca> Any other discussion on Artwork?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation
<charlie-tca> I will let Book_em_Dano update us on this one, please
<cody-somerville> :-)
 * charlie-tca struggled with it long enough in the dark, now
<Book_em_Dano> Well, I've been making updates to the Natty branch and most of those changes can be applied to maverick
<Book_em_Dano> I'm also reviewing the docs for lucid so that updated docs are available for updates soon
<charlie-tca> Great! Are we really going to be up-to-date for Natty, then?
<Book_em_Dano> I'm very confident that we will
<charlie-tca> Thank you for doing that work! It will be really great to have that done
<Book_em_Dano> I'd appreciate some extra eyes to look over the changes I've made
<Book_em_Dano> whenever possible
<charlie-tca> How do we do that?
 * charlie-tca looked in Natty, but of course, the changes are not there yet
<Book_em_Dano> pull down the latest branch from bzr
<charlie-tca> Okay, and do we let you know directly what we find?
<Book_em_Dano> yeah just file a bug or send me an email
<beardygnome> Book_em_Dano: I'm new to this, so is there somewhere that details how to "pull down the latest branch from bzr"?
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] As many people as possible need to review the latest docs in bzr
<MootBot> ACTION received:  As many people as possible need to review the latest docs in bzr
<Book_em_Dano> just a moment
<Book_em_Dano> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<Book_em_Dano> lp:xubuntu-docs is the lastest branch of the documentation
<beardygnome> thanks Book_em_Dano
<Book_em_Dano> any other ?'s
<beardygnome> not about the docs, but where can i get a natty iso?
<beardygnome> i'd like to get a vm running it
<Book_em_Dano> [LINK]  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/
<MootBot> LINK received:   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/
<beardygnome> brilliant, thanks
<charlie-tca> We do not have any daily iso right now, but the alpha1 image is good
<charlie-tca> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/11.04/alpha-1/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/11.04/alpha-1/
<charlie-tca> Until we get the panel plugins updated, we won't get a new image
<beardygnome> ok charlie-tca, thanks
<Book_em_Dano> I guess that's all for docs now
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much, Book_em_Dano. It's great to know we have you
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] PowerPC and PS3 ports for Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  PowerPC and PS3 ports for Natty
<charlie-tca> My thought right now is to discontinue the PS3 port completely, since the manufacturer doesn't want the os changed anymore
<charlie-tca> any comments on it?
<mr_pouit> I agree
<beardygnome> +1.  was it very popular anyway?
<charlie-tca> at different times it was
<charlie-tca> As for the PowerPC port, unless we get testers for it, we will not be producing the release milestones, thus it will not release as 11.04
<charlie-tca> I am willing to allow the dailies until next month, when we should discuss continuing this too.
<charlie-tca> Any questions or comments on this?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> Since we have many updates to 10.04 when it is installed, I want to publish the .2 image
<charlie-tca> This will allow us to get the changes in and save those installing it some bandwidth.
<charlie-tca> We know not all places have the fastest thing going, and unlimited downloads available.
<beardygnome> that seems like a good idea
<charlie-tca> Maybe we can even get the docs in it updated before the release?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: do we need to SRU the documentation?
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: : do we need to SRU the documentation?
<micahg> Major Mozilla updates are Firefox 3.6 has Out of process plugins for flash now and Thunderbird will be 3.1.x
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Are people still working on 10.04 documentation?
<charlie-tca> Book_em_Dano: is trying to update it
<charlie-tca> It will be around for another 2 years +
<cody-somerville> Is the 10.04 documentation translated?
<charlie-tca> I don't believe so, since it is still 9.10 docs
<Book_em_Dano> when is the cutoff date to allow updates to be available for 10.04.2?
<micahg> Book_em_Dano: probably the beginning of February
<charlie-tca> the release is scheduled for February 17, so probably February 10
<micahg> charlie-tca: no, they should be in a week before so they can have proper verification before the images are made
<charlie-tca> Yeah? So plan for the 1st of February?
<Book_em_Dano> I should be able to revise the docs for lucid by that time
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: ^ ^ ^
<micahg> Feb 7 would probably be the last day to sanely get something in, but that's really last minute
<charlie-tca> Okay
<Book_em_Dano> alright
<charlie-tca> Moving on, then, since we need to wrap up,
<micahg> BTW, that date is uploaded, not verified :)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Governance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Governance
<charlie-tca> micahg: can you find out for us?
<micahg> charlie-tca: find out what?
<charlie-tca> what the actual cutoff date is on getting things in for .2?
<charlie-tca> Not necessarily today, but ...
<micahg> charlie-tca: sure, but I would imagine CDs start spinning the Tuesday before release, so you want to have everything uploaded by the Monday before that to give 1 week in -proposed
<charlie-tca> that makes sense.
<micahg> that's why I said last sane date to upload is Feb 7
<charlie-tca> As far as governance, nominations for Project Lead are due by  Dec 15. Please send nominations in to the Community Council
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2010-November/007614.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2010-November/007614.html
<micahg> charlie-tca: sorry, I will do that tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Done
<charlie-tca> I was nominated by j1mc for Project Lead, and will accept that nomination.
<micahg> charlie-tca: oh, so I don't have to nominate?
<charlie-tca> micahg: correct
 * micahg will thanks j1mc later :)
<charlie-tca> :-)
<charlie-tca> Any other comments/questions on governance3?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
<charlie-tca> Open floor
<charlie-tca> going...
<micahg> Thunderbird will be moving to 3.1.x very soon
<charlie-tca> going....
<micahg> in Lucid
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<charlie-tca> We need anyone that can to test the latest thunderbird, too, right?
<micahg> so, if anyone wants to test, it's staged in the ubuntu-mozilla-security PPA
<cody-somerville> Speaking of Project Governance
<micahg> but that will probably get pushed out today or tomorrow
<beardygnome> test it on lucid or test it full stop?
<micahg> beardygnome: just lucid, we shipped maverick with it
<jdstrand> micahg: please keep me posted on tbird testing. I am doing it myself as we speak
<cody-somerville> I thought charlie-tca was affirmed as the project leader - not just as an interim - already. Am I mistaken?
<beardygnome> micahg: ok, thanks
<micahg> jdstrand: ok, no new news, release date is supposed to be today for 3.1.7
<charlie-tca> I hadn't seen that.
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: we never got a vote setup, did we?
 * charlie-tca steps back so others can discuss this
<cody-somerville> I'm pretty sure we affirmed you, charlie-tca, as the project leader in a community meeting.
<cody-somerville> So unless its been three release cycles since then, which I don't think it has been, then I think you're good to go.
<charlie-tca> hm, anyone else got anything on that one?
<charlie-tca> It's been one cycle, but I did not think it was confirmed
<beardygnome> i think you're doing a great job charlie-tca, i was going to vote for you anyway :-)
<charlie-tca> thus the call for nominations
<charlie-tca> I think we press on with the nominations and CC involvement now
<charlie-tca> I really do appreciate the support, though.
<charlie-tca> any more comments?
<charlie-tca> We will meet again in one week, December 16, here, at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:17.
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for being here!
<beardygnome> i can't make next week's meeting charlie-tca
<beardygnome> will there be one on dec 23?
<charlie-tca> Okay, we will keep good notes.
<Book_em_Dano> Are these meetings archived anywhere?
<charlie-tca> I don't think we will, with Christmas so close. Let's go for the 30th, though
<charlie-tca> Book_em_Dano: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> archives at the bottom
<beardygnome> ok - i'll have my vm running alpha1 then and hopefully will have gone through some of the documentation too
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> i just hope these serve more purpose than me just blabbering...
<beardygnome> yeah, they do. sounds like we're progressing well with natty
<charlie-tca> the intent was to try and keep us all informed.
<beardygnome> one question for you charlie-tca - what does SRU stand for? :-)
<charlie-tca> Stable Release Update
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure
<beardygnome> ty
<boinkboink1>  /part
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-10
<steve__> I think I missed the meeting
<skaet_> hi smb,  you representing kernel for apw?
<smb> skaet_, Yes as he warned you about. :)
<cjwatson> hi
<skaet_> smb,  cool.  :)
<skaet_> hi cjwatson
 * ara waves
<ara> skaet_, I will be representing hwcert
 * skaet_ waves back at ara
<pitti> hello
 * skaet_ waves at pitti, too.
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> I'll be representing ogra
<skaet_> welcome rsalveti.  :)
<rsalveti> thanks :-)
<skaet_> ok... time to get started I think.
<skaet_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet_> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait
 * marjo_ waves
 * skaet_ waves back
<skaet_> Agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-12-10
<skaet_> [Topic] update on action items - skaet
<MootBot> New Topic:  update on action items - skaet
<skaet_> o-series and p-series now available to use.  Thanks to launchpad team! :D
<skaet_> Release Candidate vs. beta 2 (and associated date tweaks?) still needs meeting called, was waiting for testing sprint to finish.  Look for request early next week.
<skaet_> and... last but not least..
<skaet_> Python 2.7 transition has started.  Any initial feedback?
<skaet_> ..
<doko> looks good
 * robbiew turns off updates :P
<cjwatson> just upgraded my laptop; had to remove one or two things but it does seem to be approaching consistency again noww
<cjwatson> *now
 * smb looks at his pyton-2.7 minimal failed message
<pitti> the last package that currently breaks CD builds is python-uno
<rsalveti> for arm we're still waiting most of the new packages to build
<pitti> I'll get to that in my report
<doko> pitti is fighting with OOo, any other desktop stuff should be almost ready
<skaet_> sounds better than I was hoping.  :)   cool!
<doko> we'll need to get python2.6-minimal from the chroot images to be able to address remaining build failures
<cjwatson> lamont is/was on that
<skaet_> ok doko,  cjwatson.   thanks.
<doko> current list of issues: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=python27
<skaet_> good to know.   I'll keep an eye on it.  :)
<skaet_> any other comments/updates on the open action items?
<skaet_> ..
<skaet_> ok, on to the round tables...
<skaet_> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo_> Alpha 1 test report:
<marjo_>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/NattyAlpha1TestReport
<marjo_> Thanks to all the folks who helped out with the ISO testing
<marjo_> Thanks to jibel for the report
<marjo_> weekly testing status:
<marjo_>     http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo_> please note compiz in top 5 of new bugs
<marjo_> and new mago desktop test results
<marjo_> the QA dashboard also now includes server automated test results
<skaet_> :)
<marjo_> thanks to hggdh
<marjo_> ..
<skaet_> thanks marjo.
<skaet_> quick question
<marjo_> sure
<skaet_> any work item charts I should be pointing to in the agenda for your team?   alpha2 deliverables to track?
<marjo_> can't show work items because it's broken; i believe pitti is working on it
<pitti> should be back up again
<marjo_> but alpha2 work items are in-progress
<pitti> we lost the data from yesterday
<skaet_> marjo, pitti, thanks!  :)  ok, let me know the links I should be adding before next wednesday please.
<skaet_> any other questions for marjo?
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
 * skaet_ likes pitti's efficiency
<skaet_> thanks!
<skaet_> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
<ara> hello!
<skaet_> hello
<ara> so this week we have started with the weekly testing and actually getting some results ;-)
<ara> the report has now been moved to:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<ara> The first thing you can notice in that report is that the servers didn't get much coverage
<ara> cr3 is already on this and he found that the root cause is bug 56679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 56679 in netcfg (Ubuntu Natty) "provide a method to use a specified MAC-address as the installation device" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/56679
<ara> he found a workaround and if it works it will submit it as a patch
<skaet_> ok, will keep an eye on it.   Probably should be higher priority than wishlist though?
<ara> yes, it would be nice
<ara> Also, in the clients, we found a couple of pdus timing out. To improve things in the future we are now tracking this kind of errors in a project
<cjwatson> it's wishlist because it's a design issue
<ara> cjwatson, thanks for clarifying that :)
<ara> Also, SRU testing
<cjwatson> my philosophy on wishlist follows http://www.uk.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities because I'm a crusty sort :)
<skaet_> lol
<cjwatson> so I always mark feature requests as wishlist
<ara> :D
<ara> Next week we will be testing the proposed kernels
<ara> and this time we aim to test them in up to 75 systems!!
<ara> isn't that great?
<sconklin-afk> ;-)
<skaet_> excellent!!
<ara> we will see if we can do weekly testing on natty as well
<ara> it all depends on how the sru testing goes
 * skaet_ :D 
<ara> so I can't promise that, but we will do our best
<skaet_> would be good to know how its looking before the holidays,  so appreciate you trying.   :)
<ara> ;-)
<ara> and that's all for me, or how you like to put it:
<ara> ..
<skaet_> thanks ara!   questions?
 * skaet_ looks around..
<skaet_> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> o/
<skaet_> o/
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report as we have been focusing on the stable releases of late. We have no open release targeted bugs and we have no open milestoned bugs or features for alpha-2. Any questions for the security team?
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet_> heh, you answered my question.  :)
<jdstrand> hehe
<skaet_> thanks jdstrand!   other questions?
<jdstrand> I also am only semi-present here due to another issue. please ping me directly if I'm needed
<skaet_> will do.
<skaet_> [Topic] Kernel team update - smb
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - smb
<smb> parting from apw's notes
<smb> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the
<smb> release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle
<smb> is at the third link:
<smb> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<smb> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<smb> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<smb> We are progressing on our natty-alpha-2 items, but as a number of
<smb> smaller natty-alpha-1 items bled over we are somewhat over the line
<smb> currently.  Many are small and we hope to make up some of the short fall
<smb> before the break.  The remaining pushed out items are listed with
<smb> background on the overall status above (first link).
<smb> Of the bugs called out on the agenda: more testing is requested on the
<smb> first three, there seems to be a common thread of failing to a black
<smb> screen here.  The next three are new bugs, on each investigation is
<smb> starting and we expect to have more information early next week.
<smb> Finally the EC2 i386 issues appear to be resolved, though the t1.micro
<smb> issues have been pulled out to a new bug.
<smb> The main distro kernel is now rebased forward to mainline v2.6.37-rc4
<smb> and published.  A futher upload carrying a rebase to v2.6.37-rc5 has
<smb> just uploaded and is currently building.  This latest kernel carries
<smb> updates which reneable the NX support for modules, and reenable a number
<smb> of Ubuntu drivers which were disabled during rebases.
<smb> ..
 * skaet_ digests....
<smb> apw_, sounds right? ;)
<skaet_> thanks smb!   good info.
<skaet_> any one have questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> I would link to http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html, but *cough* we aren't maintaining subcycle distinctions very well; mostly just working off the main list right now:
<cjwatson> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> We finally have a release status page:
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<cjwatson> Main summary this week:
<cjwatson>  * excellent progress on installer testing by Evan, now running regularly and soon going to gain things like bootchart support (though public viewing blocked by RT#40560)
<cjwatson>  * significant software-center speed improvements, large searches from ~5s to instant
<skaet_> *\o/*
<cjwatson>  * changelogs.ubuntu.com now updates more or less instantly
<cjwatson>  * natty upstart spec belatedly finalised: planned improvements are debug stanza, override files (with manual stanza for disabling jobs), job visualisation, socket activation, D-Bus activation, chroot support, user sessions, and visible job start/stop in plymouth details view
<cjwatson>  * Qt builds on ARM again, thanks to gcc fix
<cjwatson>  * python2.7 now default version, working through build failures
<marjo_> cjwatson: agree on Ev's progress
<cjwatson> bug summary in the release status page, not hugely interesting at the moment though
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet_> thanks for getting the release status created.  :D
<skaet_> other things sound like they're moving along quite nicely.
<skaet_> any one have questions?
<cjwatson> BTW, the upstart items are a *very* cut-down version of the full wishlist: basically top three per developer
<cjwatson> I think it's an achievable set of goals
<skaet_> ack
 * skaet_ makes a note to go give it a good review.
<skaet_> thanks cjwatson.
<skaet_> [Topic] Server team update - robbiew
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - robbiew
<robbiew> o/
<robbiew> sorry...running behind
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<skaet_> heh,  no worries - you've got a status now.   Yay!
<robbiew> htnx
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> nothing really to report on status
<robbiew> in terms of features
<robbiew> pretty much on track
<robbiew> though I need to crack the whip  on smoser
<skaet_> any progress on that one milestoned bug?
<robbiew> Daviey has looked into it
<robbiew> but needs help from doko
<skaet_> okie.
<Daviey> :(
<skaet_> any good reason why the alpha-2 work-item chart doesn't match the format of the others?
<robbiew> heh....that will be addressed ;)
<robbiew> short answer is "no"
<skaet_> sweet.  thanks!
 * skaet_ likes consistency
<skaet_> thanks robbiew.   any other questions?
<robbiew> we have one release targeted bug
<robbiew> but around syncing in xen-tools
 * skaet_ oops my bad,  didn't wait for the ..
<robbiew> new Debian package
<skaet_> ..?
<robbiew> ..
<robbiew> sorry
<skaet_> heh,  thanks.
<skaet_> any other questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> Lots of firefighting this week due to various major breakages (OO.o, Python transition, python-launchpadlib, broken login in gdm), so feature development went a bit slower.
<pitti> We are falling behind on the alpha-2 WIs, especially with the holidays in front of us. We have quite a lot of "Low" priority WIs (targets of opportunity) which we can drop if necessary.
<pitti> Martin is currently fighting with OO.o to get it to build in current Natty. This is the last package that currently breaks CD builds due to the Python 2.7 transition (python-uno).
<pitti> DISCUSSION: Since this is by far not an easy task, should we aim to work around this for now by somehow suppressing openoffice.org-emailmerge from CDs (recommends of openoffice.org-writer)?
<pitti> = CD space savings =
<pitti> Currently still 11 MB (i386)/20 MB (amd64) oversized.
<pitti> Still some space to be gained from package rebuilds (changelogs, PNGs).
<pitti> Once we rebuild OO.o, we'll drop another ~ 9 MB due to dropping the NBS libicu42 and changelogs.
<pitti> /usr/lib/python2.{6,7} each need ~ 9.5 MB of CD space, i. e. due to the transition we added 9.5 MB. It would be nice if we could drop support for 2.6 during Natty to reclaim them.
<pitti> RC bug status: nothing too worrying right now, details at
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> ..
<pitti> cjwatson: just to have some ideas up our sleeve, is it possible to blacklist oo.o-emailmerge in the seeds, so that the recommends won't pull it in?
<skaet_> thanks pitti.
<pitti> (btw, I get 1.5 hours into the OO.o build now, making progress..)
<pitti> but this will be my last attempt for today
<pitti> (the one I started 10 mins ago)
<doko> pitti: I'm all for dropping 2.6, but there are people who don't like it. launchpad guys and such
<pitti> I guess dropping 2.6 is a sprint/rallye topic?
<doko> yes
<pitti> right, next alpha isn't due until after that
<skaet_> yeah,  seems like a good topic for the rally.
<pitti> (who uses real CDs anyway :) )
<cjwatson> pitti: seed blacklisting generally isn't a useful approach
<cjwatson> pitti: it won't influence what apt does
 * skaet_ uses real CDs to test from time to time... ;)
<pitti> cjwatson: ok; so I guess we'll just temporarily unseed it completely until we get it to build again
<pitti> with some luck, I'll get through it by Monday
<cjwatson> I suppose it *might* get it off the CD, but I don't really like using blacklisting for this because it spreads confusion about its purpose (which is really an alarm bell to make sure that things break if certain packages are ever pulled in by accident)
<skaet_> thanks pitti!   any other comments/questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases is in the link above
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> couchdb bug #682866 is fixed, which means we can release desktopcouch 1.0, which should happen today, monday at the latest
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 682866 in couchdb (Ubuntu Natty) "CouchDatabase() call hangs" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682866
<joshuahoover> we'll be releasing an update with our initial zeitgeist integration next week, with the coding and testing finishing up today
<joshuahoover> we're testing all our python stuff against 2.7 currently and fixing issues when/if they arise
<skaet_> :)
<joshuahoover> and that's about it for u1 this week
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet_> thanks joshuahoover!  sounds like solid progress.    any questions?
<skaet_> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<skaet_> hi
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.6 Beta 2 uploadedpackaging now in progress, release and natty upload expected tomorrow
<Riddell>  * GCC fixes on ARM, Qt compiled, KDE packages now compiling
<Riddell> is all :)
<skaet_> nice news about GCC!
<Riddell> hmm, that didn't even work
<Riddell>  * KDE SC 4.6 Beta 2 uploaded
<Riddell> dunno where the rest came from
<skaet_> ??
<Riddell> editing error
<skaet_> :(
<ScottK> It's not wrong though.  gcc is fixed (or at least worked around)
<skaet_> :) again....
<Riddell> yes second line is fine
<skaet_> Thanks Riddell, ScottK.   any other questions/comments?
<skaet_> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth_
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth_
<dbarth_> hi
<skaet_> hi
<dbarth_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus#preview
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus#preview
<dbarth_> ...before i get disconnected again :(
<dbarth_> not much to report this week
<dbarth_> we've released unity 3.2.2 for alpha-1
<dbarth_> we've been developing for the next release for next week
<dbarth_> setting goals for alpha-2
<dbarth_> the milestoned blueprints are on the report
<dbarth_> on the a11y front, we're a bit behind, it's proving harder to implement that initially planned
<dbarth_> we're in touch with the Desktop team and rick to find a solution; more news next week
<skaet_> okie
<dbarth_> last, on the unity foundations part
<dbarth_> the gdbus port are now completed for dbusmenu, applindicator, libzeitgeist; indicator-application has been split as well
<dbarth_> we won't upload things before january however, to avoid creating a dependency hell for the end of the year
<dbarth_> you don't want that under the christmas tree, do you? ;)
<skaet_> lol
<ara> :D
<dbarth_> questions, tomatoes?
 * skaet_ wants the python 2.7 issues resolved first...
<dbarth_> yeah, i'll let python first, no worries
<skaet_> any update on the bugs in the agenda?
<dbarth_> oops, that i haven't checked thoroughly
<dbarth_> we've solved the keyboard accelerator issue
<dbarth_> at the beginning of the week
<dbarth_> let me get back to you before the end of the meeting
<dbarth_> checking quickly
<skaet_> sounds good.
<skaet_> Thanks dbarth_!  any other questions/comments?
<skaet_> [Topic] ARM team update - rsalveti
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - rsalveti
 * rsalveti waves
 * skaet_ waves back
<rsalveti> Full Status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Bug 686320: Network Manager is crashing at ARM, fix is available (backport from upstream), but waiting cyphermox to update the package
<rsalveti> - OMAP4 image is currently broken, mainly because of the python upgrade (still lots of jobs at the ARM builders)
<rsalveti> - Bug 633227: Brian was able to test with latest omap 4 tree available (2.6.37 based) and the issue is still there, work still ongoing
<rsalveti> - Thunderbird is now buildable again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 686320 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "NetworkManager crashes with SIGSEGV while loading the usb0 interface on Panda" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/686320
<rsalveti> - Issues with the SRU process with kernel fixes
<rsalveti> - There are still some open SRU bugs left
<rsalveti> - Qt is finally buildable again, and soon it'll start cleaning the KDE FTBFS
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633227 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Natty) "instabilities with highmem activated" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633227
<rsalveti> - Half of the team in vacation, so no much WI done by this week
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Image Status
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Latest one is from 20101206, before the python breakage
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Work Items
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<rsalveti> - Next Milestone http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> Bugs
<rsalveti> ..
<rsalveti> - Bug 673504 finally released
<rsalveti> - Bug 682742 thunderbird is working again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 673504 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "Pandaboard chooses a new IP address on each boot" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/673504
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 682742 in thunderbird (Ubuntu Natty) "thunderbird doesn't build on armel in natty (Error: thumb conditional instruction should be in IT block)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682742
<rsalveti> ..
<ScottK> rsalveti: KDE is ~half built now and all the Qt packages (non-KDE) I know of are rebuilt.
<rsalveti> great, that will decrease a lot the ftbfs list
<rsalveti> that's all from me
<skaet_> thanks rsalveti!  any other questions/comments?
<rsalveti> hopefully we'll starting progressing more on the WI when the people get back from vacation
<rsalveti> ..
 * skaet_ expecting the holidays to start kicking into progress for all teams shortly....
<skaet_> [Topic] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello.
<skaet_> hello
<ScottK> Other than several hundred unbuildable packages due to linker changes and buildds clogged with Python transition rebuilds everything is fine.
<skaet_> lol
<ScottK> As it's been for a while, accomodating significant toolchain changes while Debian is in freeze is a challenge.
<ScottK> So any help we can get is very much appreciated.
<ScottK> That's it.
<skaet_> understood.   will see if we can figure out some options to help with the linker side, after the python push gets resolved.
<ScottK> Great.
<skaet_> Thanks ScottK!   any questions/comments?
<skaet_> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> hey skaet_
<skaet_> hi JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> umm, nothing much to report Linaro->Ubuntu wise. We just got a new kernel packaged and uploaded ready for inclusion in our image
<skaet_> any updates for us on the interlocks?
<JamieBennett> but that won't affect Ubuntu
<JamieBennett> As for overlaps, nothing yet
<skaet_> okie.
<skaet_> do I have the right links in the agenda for tracking now?
<skaet_> ..?
 * skaet_ wonders if we've lost JamieBennett to another window....
<JamieBennett> skaet_: sorry, tracking wise we are still struggling to get tools that work
<JamieBennett> the wiki.linaro.org/Status link is good for seeing what is happening in text form
<skaet_> okie.  thanks JamieBennett!   any other questions?
<skaet_> [TOPIC] any other kudos/comments/concerns?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/comments/concerns?
 * skaet_ looks around,  any hands?
<ara> o/
<skaet_> ara, go ahead
<ara> KUDOS to the Kernel team and the people verifying SRUs that verified all the fixes for the proposed kernels in only TWO days!
<ara> you guys are awesome!
<skaet_> seconded!!
<ScottK> It might be worth a mention that I filed the bug requesting boost1.40 removal yesterday as the transition is (pending a powerpc build or two) done.
<skaet_> thanks ScottK.   bug number?
<ScottK> Looking
<skaet_> any one else?
<ScottK> skaet_: Bug 688142
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 688142 in boost1.40 (Ubuntu) "Please remove boost1.40 source and all binaries from natty" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/688142
<skaet_> Thanks ScottK
<skaet_> ok,  will follow up with dbarth_ later.    time to end meeting I think...
<skaet_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:19.
<skaet_> Thanks marjo, ara, jdstrand, smb, cjwatson, pitti, doko, robbiew, joshuahoover,  dbarth, rsalveti,  ScottK
<dbarth_> skaet_: had to hop on a phone call, but did not forget about the bug reports
<ara> thanks skaet_
<pitti> thanks everyone
<joshuahoover> thank you skaet_ :)
<robbiew> thanks skaet_
<marjo_> thx skaet_
<cjwatson> ScottK: thanks, I'll deal with that
<rsalveti> thanks skaet_
<ScottK> Cool.
 * cjwatson bumps up the powerpc build
<ScottK> (don't mean to rush you on it, just thought it was good news worth a mention)
<skaet_> thanks dbarth_  just ping me offline.
<cjwatson> that's fine, it's an easy one to handle (though I'd like to double-check that the powerpc build finishes first)
<ScottK> cjwatson: OK.  It's python-visual I'm waiting on, but I didn't check if all it's depends are built.
<Messanger> world leaders setting you all up right now to get microchipped by RFID microchips with identity/healthcare/credit information into their new world order why they are folding the economy , their solution to the problem they are causing is the RFID microchip  http://www.scribd.com/doc/44997148/The-Mark-of-the-Beast    Romans 10:13 all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-11
<jussi> o/
<rww> o/
 * tsimpson uses a ctcp action to indicate he is here
<topyli> very l33t!
<Pici> very meta/
 * jussi waves tiredly
<topyli> nhandler said he'll be late
<jussi> topyli:shall we begin?
<topyli> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:01. The chair is topyli.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<topyli> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<topyli> [topic] Volunteering for duties and time management within the IRCC
<MootBot> New Topic:  Volunteering for duties and time management within the IRCC
<topyli> Seeker`: around?
<Pici> I believe  seeker wanted us to remmeber that if we don't have time to do a task that delegate it to our operators.
<topyli> i'm not sure if this is even necessary, anyone in the team can volunteer, and should! :)
<jussi> ie. rww is a priime example :)
 * rww polishes halo
<topyli> yeah, and others are doing a good job too
<topyli> let's move on
<topyli> [topic] Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
<topyli> ikonia: around?
<Pici> Hes in the states this weekend, I'm not sure if he was going to be able to make it to this meeting.
<Pici> I think that we know what he was talking about right?
<topyli> well we can discuss it still
<topyli> yeah
<topyli> we have nhandler's input, i could paste it here
<Pici> For those of you who don't, it was referring to the control, or lack-thereof in channels such as #kubuntu and #ubuntu-devel
<jussi> topyli: paste it
<topyli>  For ikonia's issue, as I mentioned, we have the authority from the CC and freenode to manage the Ubuntu project namespace on freenode. However, we also have the ability to delegate. We delegate authority to small team/LoCo channels to basically manage themselves (to an extent), we also have delegated some authority to people like the KC to add OPs. They can not override us on the IRC matters (they can appeal to the CC to have them override us
<topyli>  however).
<topyli> that's him not me
<Pici> That doesn't exactly address the entire issue though.  What if we want to do something that they may not agree with.  Do we have that authority?
<tsimpson> on IRC, yes
<tsimpson> if they disagree, that can escalate it (if we can't work things out inter-council first)
<jussi> However, there needs to be consultation with them before we do stuff.
<rww> or switch to OFTC, was the impression I got
<Pici> s/consultation/notification/ perhaps.
<Pici> Or somewhere between the two.
<jussi> Pici: to a point...
<tsimpson> we are in a rather interesting position as a council in that we, by definition, need to work with other councils closely and often
<jussi> I think if we do something that affects groups in large ways, we should be including these groups in the discussion
<tsimpson> sometimes our points of view differ, but I don't know of a situation where we could not come to some sort of agreement
<Pici> I want there to be as much respect between the councils as possible.  I don't think that we should be stepping on each others toes, but I think we all should be respectful of where the lines of authority are drawn.
<topyli> we are ultimately responsible. for example, i would love to delegate more of the loco channel policy to the loco council (if they want it), but i also have to be able to say that i can answer to the CC for what happens there. it's tricky
<jussi> topyli: ++
<Pici> topyli: agreed
<topyli> so i think we can't really advance this without first meeting the relevant councils (loco, kubuntu i suppose) and seeing what they want
<jussi> I think this is good for a discussion on the inter-council list?
<topyli> yes
<Pici> I think thats a great idea
<rww> There's an inter-council list? huh.
<Pici> Only councilmembers have access to it.
<topyli> jussi: you're the council spokesman, would you like to take the action?
<tsimpson> rww: so we can plot the world domination ;)
<Pici> jussi: I'd be willing to help you draft something if you'd like.
<topyli> we need smoky chambers!
<Pici> You can't fight here! This is the war room!
<jussi> topyli: I can go as number one on the action, but I have an incredibly busy week ahead, so some help would be good
<jussi> Pici: yes please
<Pici> Throw me up there then
<topyli> Pici will help
<tsimpson> plz 2 action
<topyli> [ACTION] jussi and Pici to draft proposal for inter-council co-operation to maintain project channels
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jussi and Pici to draft proposal for inter-council co-operation to maintain project channels
<topyli> meh, i don't know if that's good but we'll get the idea
<topyli> [topic] Give ubottu editing privileges to all who are operators in a core channel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Give ubottu editing privileges to all who are operators in a core channel
<topyli> rww: your item
<Pici> you're
<topyli> !
<Pici> :P
<rww> It's pretty much self-explanatory. Imho, we need more ubottu editors, because factoid submissions aren't being dealt with. We have a set of people who are entrusted with channel ops permissions, so give it to them ;)
<topyli> i think it's just a technical issue really, bot access is handled separately
<topyli> for example, i don't have access
<tsimpson> I don't think the reason factoid edit requests aren't dealt with has much to do with the number of editors really
<rww> I don't think there's a reason it should be, really.
<jussi> tsimpson: +++
<tsimpson> it's more that most people either don't see the requests or don't know if it's been done or not
<topyli> rww: there isn't, it just happens to be this way
<m4v> any bot admin can hand edit privileges
<tsimpson> but that's a slightly different issue to this
<m4v> and there are several admins
<Pici> Is not a technical issue.
<rww> tsimpson: and if there were more editors, an editor would be more likely to see the requests.
<Pici> Its an issue of whether this happens during the operator probationary period or after or other.
<m4v> yeah, I was replying to topyli, a bit latew
<tsimpson> rww: but not more likely to act
<tsimpson> there are times where no one is active, and the request is somewhere in the scroll-back
<tsimpson> even if everyone is an editor
<jussi> Theres  a FR in ubottu for caching of requested factoids, no? m4v have wwe actually put that in writing ofr just talked about it?
<rww> Maybe some of the people who are ops and not editors would pay attention to requests if they had access.
<m4v> jussi: yeah, I tried to implement it in Encyclopedia, but it didn't turn out to be a trivial task
<m4v> so I continued working in the new plugin
<jussi> m4v: ok, are you planning it for the new encyclopedia?
<m4v> yes, is in the TODO
<rww> I mean, surely I'm not the only one that reads -ops scrollback ...
<jussi> excellent
<tsimpson> rww: to make myself clear, I think having more editors is a different issue to just having edit requests dealt with
<rww> and I think that a) extending access would help with the problem, and b) that there's no reason I've yet heard of not to
<tsimpson> I do think we need to have some way to say "yes, you should have edit rights now"
<Pici> topyli: +1
<Pici> tsimpson: +1
<Pici> topyli: -1
<Pici> :P
<topyli> heh
<jussi> [15:58:50] <jussi> m4v: the only isues I have with that are that its not always improvements, despite the best of intentions. Thing is, people consider factoids as "approved/trusted information" so if we have too many editors, it becomes a problem to keep it that way. I think the system we thought of that factoid edit requests get stored and are easily viewable is a much better way than adding millions of editors
<jussi> I said that to m4v in a different convo, but its relevant
<tsimpson> I think edit requests is a different issue to the one we are discussing now, related, but different
<Pici> I don't think there is a thing as too many editors, as long as they are all trusted.
<m4v> if there are many requests from one person, and is trustworthy, why don't give him/her rights?
<jussi> tsimpson: is correct, there is no policy and needs to be
<topyli> well basically we trust our ops, so there's no real reason for not giving access
<Pici> Is there a sort on ubottu.com/factoids.cgi that for last changed? That way we can hand out editor access but still easily audit changes.
<rww> I don't think adding yet more approval procedure to a team that already has too much when there's a perfectly good set of people who are already trusted is a good idea.
<tsimpson> we should also think about having some kind of style guidelines for factoids, so they are standardized
<tsimpson> (again, another issue)
<Pici> rww: I don't want it to be an approval procedure, but rather part of the probationary process. Just another thing that we look at while you're still fresh.
<jussi> tsimpson: I suggested that a long time ago, but there was no suggestions on how the style should be...
<nhandler> o/
<jussi> hi nhandler
<m4v> I don't like a policy where edit privileges are tight regulated..
<m4v> it should be more like a wiki
<tsimpson> jussi: nothing too complex, just a general this is how you style a factoid...
<tsimpson> m4v: we tried that long ago, it was wildly abused (somewhat like a wiki ;)
<Pici> I think we should try to stick the issue at hand, we're getting sidetracked.
<rww> and I agree that some sort of submission queue would be an equally-good idea, but that's been in the works for a long, long time. adding more editors is relatively quicker.
<m4v> tsimpson: well, if an admin hands over rights to somebody that abused the factoid db, the admin isn't qualified.
<tsimpson> I think the simplest solution would be to just give our ops edit privileges at the end of probation
<topyli> re: the issue. yes we might as well give factoid access to core channel ops
<m4v> great
<topyli> tsimpson: yes after probation
<Pici> tsimpson: I was just thinking about that, but I'm not sure its the best idea.
<jussi> tsimpson: ++
<jussi> Pici: why?
<tsimpson> Pici: well, simple != best, but I'd rather not complicate things too much, we can always remove edit rights if we see abuse
<Pici> Worst case: They come out of probation with no idea how to edit a factoid properly.
<Pici> And then we have a bunch of unhelpful factoids to change.
<nhandler> tsimpson: That was basically what I suggested. I also thought that the ability to grant a slightly-restricted editor privilege where you can only submit corrections in -ops (instead of via PM) so other people could review it might also be helpful
<jussi> Pici: do you have a different idea?
<tsimpson> nhandler: that's technically difficult...
<jussi> m4v: how feasible would it be to implement nhandlers suggestion?
<tsimpson> m4v: what do you think ^
<m4v> Pici: edit factoids isn't a skill hard to learn...
<Pici> I think we should encourage them to suggest factoid edits now.  Even though they don't have the rights to add them.
<topyli> Pici: that's a relevant point. we could just tell people to please not edit before they know how
<Pici> m4v: Its not the techincal part that I'm worried about.
<rww> Give full factoid editing privs to ops out of probation now, implement correct-in--ops and give it to probationary ops when it's coded?
<Pici> rww: I think thats a good idea.
<topyli> i do see what Pici means. people rely on correct factoids
<jussi> yes, me also
<topyli> i like that
<m4v> jussi: I don't see what's the difference than what we have now?
<tsimpson> I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement that edit-in-ops thing, I'll have to do some poking around the code
<topyli> the difference is that not all core ops have access now
<m4v> ahh
<Pici> tsimpson: You should be able to to use the ischannel() function to figure out whether they're talking in a channel or not.
<m4v> you mean, you can edit a factoid if the edit is done in -ops?
<tsimpson> Pici: yeah, but Encyclopedia is convoluted
<nhandler> m4v: Yeah, so other ops can review the change
<Pici> tsimpson: I know ;)
<nhandler> m4v: The difference between what we have now is that the edit would actually be live, not just proposed
<tsimpson> Pici: there's also the issue of separating out those who can edit _anywhere_ and those that can only in -ops
<m4v> that's what I use with -es factoid bot, but as tsimpson said, Encyclopedia can make it hard to implemetn
<Pici> tsimpson: Yes.
<Pici> m4v: Its not a blocker for this process if its too hard to do.
<Pici> I think just having our probates (I don't like that word) be okay with suggesting factoids is enough.
<Pici> And encouraged to do so.
<rww> agreed
<m4v> if somebody makes enough well made edit suggestions, can get edit privileges?
<tsimpson> yep
<tsimpson> but there's nothing anywhere that says that...
<nhandler> That is what we've done for individuals before.
<jussi> s/somebody/an op/?
<nhandler> tsimpson: Maybe we should document how to get edit privileges
<nhandler> jussi: That is the question, should it be 100% restricted to core OPs?
<jussi> or anyone?
<Pici> No. Any operator.
<tsimpson> m4v: there is no requirement on being an op to edit factoids, that where there was never any link between ops and editors
<m4v> jussi: well, you have to have an account with ubottu, which is a bit hard to get if you aren't an op
<topyli> are even all the current editors ops?
<tsimpson> if we think you should have an account, we can add one :)
<nhandler> topyli: Probably not (I don't think we remove old ops for example)
<tsimpson> topyli: most (probably)
<Pici> I think we did.
<Pici> But we still have a fair number of non probationed ops that don't have editor access.
<tsimpson> we can see (who wants a mass ping?)
<topyli> yay!
<Pici> tsimpson: ubottu does, in private.
<nhandler> I personally see no reason why any person (ops and non-ops) should not be able to gain the privilege to edit factoids if they demonstrate they know what they are doing and submit many useful/correct ones for review first
<m4v> topyli: you can see current editors with @user list --capability editfactoids in a query (i think)
<tsimpson> Pici: but I wanted to mass ping everyone :(
<topyli> heh
<nhandler> m4v: Yeah, but then we need to compare that to who is currently an operator ;)
<tsimpson> m4v: we have the @editors command :)
<m4v> I understand supybot more than I understand Encyclopedia ;P
<Pici> I'd be willing to take a look at the code itself.
<topyli> ok, shall we try to get editor rights to all core channel ops after probation?
<Pici> but I think we should codify what we want exactly first.  Perhaps a vote is in orer?
<Pici> order too.
<topyli> just trying to formulate a proposition to vote on
<jussi> what are we voting on?
<Pici> topyli: Thats what I mean
<topyli> that's the question! :)
<topyli> alright.
<topyli> [vote]  get editor rights to all core channel ops after probation
<MootBot> Please vote on:   get editor rights to all core channel ops after probation.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Pici> I say we give it to all non probated ops right now, we live the problems that might bring, if any, for a little bit.
<nhandler> How does the topic of restricting editing to -ops fit into this?
<m4v> Pici: I like that
<topyli> i think my proposal covers current ops
<tsimpson> nhandler: if it's doable, we can do it
<Pici> nhandler: That was only for probationed opreators.
<Pici> opreators. nice.
<jussi> Pici: ++
<topyli> gah
<topyli> how do i retreat a voting item? :)
<nhandler> topyli: End it and start a new one
<Pici> endvoet?
<tsimpson> just end the vote
<topyli> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
 * Pici fail engish, thats unpossible
<topyli> who wants to suggest a workable suggestion to vote on? i sort of know what we mean but i'm failing
<jussi> Pici: ?
<tsimpson> give all current ops in core channels factoid editing rights?
<topyli> current ops, new ones after probation, in -ops only?
<Pici> jussi: eh/
<Pici> What tsimpson said.
<topyli> alright
<jussi> Vote: Give all ops in core channels editing rights, with the exception of those on probation.
<topyli> [vote] Give all ops in core channels editing rights, with the exception of those on probation.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Give all ops in core channels editing rights, with the exception of those on probation..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Pici> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> thank you :)
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<topyli> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<m4v> why don't just give rights to those ops that want it instead of all? (less commands to type)
<m4v> oh i'm slow
<topyli> maybe we can implement this so that they have to request access
<tsimpson> because that's messy, and no one has really asked for it
<Pici> Because we should be encouraging our ops to suggest factoids.
<m4v> rww did ask for it
<m4v> (with this meeting)
<Pici> Not to say "Oh, I can't add factoids, so I'll be lazy instead"
<m4v> :P
<jussi> s/suggest/fix and add/
<tsimpson> and I think that'd only ask when they need to actually edit something
<Pici> Or they didn't know they could ask.
<tsimpson> m4v: the "really" in there covers that
<m4v> kk, got it
<topyli> alright
<topyli> [topic] Add information on the recent increase of spam and that it should be ignored by users, to the #ubuntu topic
<MootBot> New Topic:  Add information on the recent increase of spam and that it should be ignored by users, to the #ubuntu topic
<tsimpson> to this, I'd just say "NO!" :)
<Pici> Nobody reads the topic.
<tsimpson> 1st reason ^
<topyli> bilal just /quit, he's not here
<rww> Are we still even getting that much spam? It's my impression that the FLoodBot changes have counted it rather effectively.
<m4v> I read it :(
<tsimpson> also, topics are a limited length, and are already rather full
<jussi> the topic in #u is full enough all ready...
<Pici> rww: They have.
 * m4v is kidding anyway
<topyli> i don't see spam increasing, it's always been like this
<Pici> The dynamic +r setting is great.
<Pici> Its been decreasing in our channel since we got that.
<nhandler> I would prefer not to go into much details in our /topic. It is an issue across the network. However, I see no issue in putting a shortened link to http://blog.freenode.net/2010/11/be-safe-out-there/ in there
<tsimpson> there's also the issue that we don't want to be an advertising agency for these trolls
<jussi> tsimpson: ++
<tsimpson> the best way to deal with them (once they are gone) is to ignore that it ever happened
<topyli> yeah if we do something, i'd go with nhandler's idea
<Pici> I think we should remind people to use our !feed the troll factoid, and maybe put that sort of link in there.
<Pici> !feed the troll
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<topyli> :)
<Pici> !feeding the troll
<ubottu> The above mess was caused by someone who thought it was funny (they're gone now). Please ignore it completely, since discussing it and making a fuss will only make them think they've reached their "fun" goal.
<Pici> Or similar.
<jussi> Pici: yes, that sounds sane
<nhandler> My only issue with the factoids is they tend to be rather noisy and give much more attention to the issue that it deserves
<jussi> !-feeding the troll
<ubottu> feeding the troll aliases: feedthetroll, don't feed the troll, botattack - added by LjL on 2007-10-17 17:04:23
<tsimpson> maybe someone could make the floodbots do it, as they do for a netsplit?
<Pici> nhandler: Its easier than telling 10 people that they shouldn't join #freenode to get an xmas cloak.
<tsimpson> though, I still think that's a little much
<m4v> can floodbots detect trolls?
<topyli> my issue with factoids is the same that nhandler has with adding to the #ubuntu topic: they grow and become noisy and people start to ignore them
<m4v> why do be have ops then :P
<Pici> So education?
<tsimpson> m4v: as you well know, bots are never perfect ;)
<Pici> Instead of factoid spamming?
<nhandler> So were there any objections to having a simple link to that freenode blog post (shortened) in the /topic? It would only add a few characters, and would not require editing for each new type of attack
<tsimpson> I don't think it's too much of an issue, most people go back to their support issues quickly after an "attack"
<topyli> nhandler: if it still fits there, no
<jussi> yeah, if we have room...
<rww> The more you put in /topic, the less people will read it.
<topyli> yes that's the provlem
<tsimpson> let's make ubottu /msg and /notice people the topic on-join
 * tsimpson runs away
<topyli> ha
<nhandler> tsimpson: That is what the entrymsg is for
<rww> and I don't think this is frequent enough that it needs to be in there :\
<tsimpson> nhandler: that wan't a serious suggestion
<nhandler> And we can easily make room in the /topic by shortening urls and removing the notice that maverick has been released
<topyli> yes
<Pici> I don't think so either.
<Pici> We said a few minutes ago that this wasn't needed in the topic, what has changed?
<topyli> we have so far established that it not needed but it's not harmful either :)
<rww> "The more you put in /topic, the less people will read it." <-- harmful
<topyli> well except for rww's point of huge topics, but we can't fix it
<nhandler> rww: That isn't necessarily true either. And like I said, we can shorten the /topic rather easily
<tsimpson> there's also the point that people aren't going to bother reading the topic, clicking on each link and reading each page when they join
<tsimpson> most are there to ask a support question, they just don't care about the topic
<rww> nhandler: "we should take some of the stuff out of the existing topic" is a good point regardless of us adding new stuff to it. If someone else doesn't, I'll review it when I'm not at work.
<m4v> specially if the urls are in tinyurl form
<topyli> nhandler: if someone shortens all the urls in the topic and adds one more, i won't be against it :)
<bittin> tinyurl form url is nice =)
<Pici> Why not use a form that we can actually track how much they're clicked, like, goo.gl or bit.ly?
<m4v> except that you don't know what it is until you click it?
<nhandler> tinyurl is one of the longer shorteners ;) We can get them even shorter.
<jussi> is.gd ;)
<bittin> bit.ly
<Pici> That way we can see if people are actually reading through and clicking them?
<nhandler> m4v: We have the links labeled as well. 'i.e. release notes: foo.com/bar' is pretty clear
<topyli> Pici: not a bad idea, could be useful information for many purposes
<nhandler> v.gd might be useful for that
<m4v> nhandler: yeah, nevermind me
<topyli> ok
<nhandler> So I guess we have two things to decidce. First, does anything need to be done at all by us?
<Pici> Want me to do that?
<nhandler> Pici: I can do it as well if you want
<topyli> [vote] add "ignore spam" info to #ubuntu topic
<MootBot> Please vote on:  add "ignore spam" info to #ubuntu topic.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<topyli> we have to go on :)
<Pici> I'm not sure if statistics on is.gd links can be viewed by everyone, I know goo.gl's can.
<Pici> s/is.gd/bit.ly/
<nhandler> Pici: That is why I suggested v.gd (same people as is.gd)
<topyli> that's implementation details, let's decide on the issue
<Pici> +1 (in shortened form)
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bittin> +1 for shortned form
<MootBot> +1 received from bittin. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<tsimpson> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from tsimpson. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nhandler> bittin: The vote is only for members of the council
<topyli> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<topyli> heh
<bittin> nhandler ah :(
<nhandler> Pici: So did you want the action, or should I take it
<Pici> nhandler: I'll take it.
<topyli> let's give the action item to bittin
<bittin> i diden't know that how do i get to be a member?
<nhandler> bittin: Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/Charter
<topyli> alright Pici, you volunteered first :)
<tsimpson> bittin: but being a member doesn't entitle you to vote either, only the IRC Council can vote
<Pici> You can state your opinion though :)
<topyli> anything else? i haven't checked bugs to be honest
<tsimpson> indeed-e-doodly
<nhandler> topyli: I don't think there have been any new ones (I am subscribed)
<Pici> I threw something on there for the offtopic guidelines, but it can wait.
<topyli> oh yes so am i
<tsimpson> no new bugs, just the same old same old
<nhandler> Did we give that status update on the IRCC nomination process?
<topyli> Pici: oh!
<topyli> Pici: sorry, did i miss it?
<Pici> refresh
<topyli> oh yes
<topyli> do we have time? i do
<nhandler> Just a quick status update, the extended period for IRCC nominations ended. The list of nominees has been sent to the CC along with feedback from the current IRCC. We are now waiting on the CC.
<topyli> [action] pici to fix #ubuntu topic to include advice to ignore spam
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pici to fix #ubuntu topic to include advice to ignore spam
<topyli> jussi, nhandler, tsimpson, do you want to take on Pici's offtopic support item?
<tsimpson> if you want
<topyli> or shall we postpone?
<jussi> Im tired, had a longday, need to sleep.
<Pici> Okay, we can do this some other time.
<nhandler> Maybe bring it up on the ML to try and get some feedback before the next meeting
<topyli> i guess it's not busy
<topyli> nhandler: good idea
<Pici> nhandler: not a bad idea
<topyli> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:11.
<topyli> thanks all
<bittin> thanks :)
<topyli> i will do the post-meeting items in the morning, it's late
<bittin> sorry for i voted :(
<nhandler> No problem bittin
<tsimpson> don't worry about it
<bittin> will think about it to next meeting,  will attend
<bittin> i will*
<topyli> bittin: it was clear, you didn't cause a revolution :)
<Pici> heh
<bittin> that only #ubuntu ircops is allowed to vote in the Council meeting
<bittin> if i understand it right
<rww> no, just IRC COuncil members
<tsimpson> no, only the IRC Council
<bittin> ok
<bittin> will read on it when iam not tired
<bittin> i guess
<bittin> bookmarked the webpage
<bittin> night
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-05
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> hi!
<tyhicks> hello!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  5 18:06:51 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following people who helped Ubuntu Security last week:
<jdstrand> * Gabriel A. von Winckler (winckler) for the phpldapadmin debdiffs
<jdstrand> * Dominic Hargreaves <dom@earth.li> for the request-tracker3.8 debdiff
<jdstrand> * Arnaud Quette (Uzuul) for help in updating the nut qa-regression-testing script (LP: #894476)
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> last week was 'interesting' in that I did quite a bit, but not what I said I would :P
<jdstrand> that said, I am in the happy place again and I have several updates I am working on
<jdstrand> several MIR audits need to still be done that have been backburnered for too long
<jdstrand> assuming I can actually do those things, I will do some work items
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> and I have some updates for colord, commons-daemon and dovecot that I need to test and release
<mdeslaur> besides that, I'm looking into the ffmpeg/libav issues
<mdeslaur> and will pick up some other stuff from the list
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> micahg: you're up
 * jdstrand guesses he could get more specific: updates are for vsftpd, python-django and quassel
<micahg> working on updates, patch pilot, planning Firefox rapid release migration for lucid/maverick
<micahg> also starting to plan for webkit 1.6 migration as well
<micahg> that's it for me
<micahg> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> micahg: 1.6 or 1.8?
 * tyhicks waits
<micahg> mdeslaur: 1.6 first, then 1.8 if we choose that for precise
<micahg> to clarify: 1.6 in all stable releases
<tyhicks> I am currently finishing up testing a fix for a private bug
<tyhicks> I need to make some progress on my update queue and I'll probably focus on bzip2 first
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: do you have an eta on the 1.8 decision? are you participating in that discussion?
<jdstrand> err
<jdstrand> micahg: ^
<micahg> jdstrand: haven't heard back, will check with the Desktop team this week
<jdstrand> tyhicks: didn't mdeslaur take bzip2?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: nope - he took it and then gave it back :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: nope
<jdstrand> ah, sneaky
<tyhicks> So I'll bet there is something exciting waiting there for me ;)
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: nah
<mdeslaur> trivial fix
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: I do need to coordinate with you regarding the t1lib update
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: Shall I run with it from here on?
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: sure
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: just make sure I didn't regress anything with the patch
<mdeslaur> although I don't know how that could happen
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: Will do
<tyhicks> I need to patch, test, and upstream a fix for the eCryptfs statfs() max filename length reporting bug (LP: #885744)
<tyhicks> Finally, I'd like to get a 'make check' set up in ecryptfs-utils for eCryptfs tr
<tyhicks> oops... that is "eCryptfs trunk tests"
<jjohansen> tyhicks: do you have the patch for that one already?
<tyhicks> jjohansen: nope
<jjohansen> tyhicks: I might, let me check
<tyhicks> ok, great
<tyhicks> jjohansen: You're up - that's it for me
<jjohansen> This week I will hopefully finish squashing the bugs around aa namespaces and get fake stacking up in a ppa so the server team can start integrating with it.
<jjohansen> I also need to testing on the new __d_path api, and once that is settled move apparmor to using it.  Oh and write some documentation for them on using it.
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: did you find a solution to that?
<jjohansen> oh and I guess I will try to publish a few kernel usns without breaking things
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: yes al viro, created a new api
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: cool, so we don't lose anything?
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: we shouldn't but I haven't tested the api, nor changed the patch to it yet
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: ok
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: if not we do have a fall back that is I think 100% but its a lot more work as it relies on us getting our labeling in shape
<mdeslaur> hrm
<jjohansen> ie. work not planned for this cycle
 * mdeslaur crosses fingers
 * jdstrand keeps fingers and toes crossed
<jjohansen> oh, and not on disk labeling
<jjohansen> thats it from me
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cableswig.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gforge.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ejabberd.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/opensaml2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xmlsec1.html
<jdstrand> opensaml2 and xmlsec1 should only need a merge from Debian per http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> I have one thing
<jdstrand> last week I did a work items analysis which culminated in http://people.canonical.com/~jamie/wi/precise-canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> that page is rough, but it gives a percent completed and sums the days we initially estimated to complete the work
<tyhicks> nice!
<jdstrand> because we commit to essential and try hard to get all our high work items, there are separate stats for them
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I think I spot a small mistake in my row
<jdstrand> it should also be updated automatically via cron based on the work items tracker output
<jdstrand> tyhicks: I don't doubt it :) let's talk after the meeting
<tyhicks> sounds good :)
<jdstrand> so, the is preliminary of course
<jdstrand> but in general, I think looking at essential and high, the work is properly loaded
<jdstrand> we can discuss specifics in #ubuntu-hardened after the meeting if there aer questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> 'work is properly loaded' sounds funny. I should say 'the work load is correctly distributed'
<jdstrand> ok, thanks everybody!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  5 18:33:20 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-05-18.06.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks jdstrand
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
 * stgraber waves
 * micahg waves
<tumbleweed> .
<jtaylor> hi
<micahg> bdrung: DMB meeting?
<tumbleweed> and jbicha isn't online...
<stgraber> and I didn't see a reply to Laney's e-mail either
<micahg> geser: we have quorum for the first part of the meeting :)
<geser> ok, let's begin
<geser> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  5 19:05:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is geser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<geser> Welcome to the Developer Membership Board meeting
<geser> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<geser> * Laney to document package set application process
<geser> what's the status of this?
<tumbleweed> looks done
<micahg> geser: Laney isn't around ATM, but looks does
<geser> ok
<geser> * micahg to ping all packageset teams to get a description we can use for future changes
<micahg> geser: not done yet, will try to have that finished before the next meeting
<geser> ok, is there a wiki page documentating the ones you got already a response?
<micahg> I haven't sent out the initial mails yet :(
<geser> ok
<geser> * tumbleweed to create private DMB channel for realtime use during meetings
<geser> this is done
<tumbleweed> it's currently invite-only, so not useful for people with questions
<tumbleweed> (unless they get invited)
<geser> * jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files for the desktop-extra package set
<geser> did we get that list? (I haven't checked my mails today yet)
<tumbleweed> nope
<tumbleweed> and no sign of him
<geser> so the "desktop-extra" package set is on hold too, right?
<tumbleweed> oh, hang on, he's online again
<tumbleweed> I think I whoised him on the wrong network before...
<tumbleweed> ...anyway, not here now...
 * bdrung waves.
<geser> in which timezone does he live? is it a time zone problem?
<stgraber> launchpad says US eastern
<stgraber> so both timezones shouldn't be too bad if he can connect from work
<geser> let's hope we get a list for the next meeting (to get this finally done)
<geser> #topic MOTU application: Julian Taylor
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU application: Julian Taylor
<geser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JulianTaylor/MOTUApplication
<stgraber> yeah, I'm not against discussing it on the mailing-list so we don't need jbicha to be at the meeting. If we have the list and everything before, we can probably just vote on it
<geser> jtaylor: your stage :)
<stgraber> I don't think the package set was controversial or anything, we really just needed the list :)
<jtaylor> hi, most of you have probably already seen me hanging around in the various ubuntu irc channels
<jtaylor> I have now been involved in ubuntu and debian for almost a year in various areas, packaging, bug triaging, education
<jtaylor> I was recently involved in a few transitions and tasks in ubuntu, namely as-needed fixing, dh_python2 transition and mono 2.10 transition
<jtaylor> I now want to apply for motu membership to relieve the sponsors from some work :)
<tumbleweed> 'bout time :)
<stgraber> cool, so a few questions based on recent events :) are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce and read it usually within 24 hours of an e-mail getting on there? :)
<jtaylor> yes I'm subscribed to -announce and -motu and usually read it at least once a day
<stgraber> good
<jtaylor> also -ubuntu-devel
<jtaylor> (+ main debian lists)
<stgraber> now we're on alpha-2 release week and you have some universe packages to upload, what do you check and what do you do?
<jtaylor> before alpha the archive is a soft freeze to not distrupt the iso building
<jtaylor> but so far I know that should only affect main
<stgraber> nope, it doesn't, that's the tricky part :)
<geser> s/main/packages on CDs/
<micahg> s/CDs/images/
<geser> and some flavours build from universe
 * tumbleweed just wrote a tool to check that, I'd love reviews of it :)
<stgraber> basically anything that's seeded (be it main or universe) and that's not exclusively in the SUPPORTED seed
<micahg> tumbleweed: I'd love to :)
<stgraber> tumbleweed: awesome!
<tumbleweed> [OT]: lp:~stefanor/ubuntu-dev-tools/on-images-876554
<tumbleweed> back to regular programming...
<jtaylor> ah ok, should I be accepted I'll of course check up with expericend members before every action I do
<stgraber> jtaylor: so yeah, not touching anything on the ISO during a release week without poking the release team about it is the right answer, just be careful as we have quite a few of them in universe now
<geser> jtaylor: no worry, I've to remember myself about this too when it's time for a soft freeze
<tumbleweed> jtaylor: any ideas for dealing with bugs that remain unfixed forever? I suspect you doing your best to fix them all would lead to burnout rather than a real improvement... :/
<geser> tumbleweed: invent cloning :)
<tumbleweed> yeah, we could use more jtaylors
<jtaylor> I currently follow the procedure that when someone asks directly via email or irc about an annoying I try to get it fixed or at least on the right track
<tumbleweed> sure, I do that too. But then we just fix the issues raised by people who know ubuntu-developers...
<micahg> jtaylor: are you aware of how to get the relevant changelog entries into a .changes file and verify they're in there?
<jtaylor> hm dpkg-genchanges creates the changes files, and you can read them with a text editor
<micahg> jtaylor: right, but how do you make sure that the relevant entries are in there?  default is just the last entry
<jtaylor> I don't know :/
<stgraber> micahg: you mean, like when merging from Debian?
<micahg> jtaylor: if you pass -v to dpkg-buildpackage (or debuild) with the last version uploaded, you'll get all the entries after that version
<micahg> stgraber: yes
<jtaylor> ah it passes that to dpkg-genchanges
<jtaylor> not scanned the manpage fast enough ;)
<micahg> jtaylor: right :)
<geser> any other questions?
 * stgraber is ready to vote
 * micahg is ready
<geser> #vote Should Julian Taylor become a MOTU?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Julian Taylor become a MOTU?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<tumbleweed> +1 [ I endorsed him ]
<meetingology> +1 [ I endorsed him ] received from tumbleweed
<geser> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from geser
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<micahg> +1 good packaging work, good interaction w/peers and community in general
<meetingology> +1 good packaging work, good interaction w/peers and community in general received from micahg
<geser> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Julian Taylor become a MOTU?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> that was easy
<tumbleweed> jtaylor: congratulations
<micahg> jtaylor: congratulations
<jtaylor> thanks :)
<stgraber> congrats!
<geser> #topic Core Dev application: Micah Gersten
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Core Dev application: Micah Gersten
<geser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/micahg/CoreDevApplication
 * micahg moves to the other side of the table
<geser> micahg: your stage
<stgraber> ah yeah, right, he isn't a core dev :)
<micahg> HI, I've been an Ubuntu developer for about 18 months now, working on various things, FTBFS, RC Bugs, Xubuntu, Mozilla stack
<stgraber> win 40
<stgraber> doh :)
<jbicha> and you helped keep
<jbicha> Chromium going!
<micahg> I enjoy solving problems (getting pkg-config and cmake to play nice was fun)
<geser> micahg: what's the biggest difference between MOTU and core-dev in your eyes?
<micahg> geser: Both are generalists, core-dev I believe is expected to know more about the possible impact of changes that updating a package can have on the rest of the archive, also be a driver of transitions and other release related activities (with consultation with the release team of course)
<geser> based on the comments in your application, I guess there is no need to ask you questions about policies :)
<micahg> A core-dev is also a leader that tries to help other developers DTRT or fix other issues
<micahg> geser: I still have plenty to learn :)
<tumbleweed> micahg: do you see any solutions to the latest-crack-in-PPAs issue you raise?
<stgraber> micahg: so are you subscribed and reading -announce? :P
<micahg> tumbleweed: well, the -backports team seems to have new life thanks to you and broder, I recently became a member of that team as well, I think we can leverage -backports for some of those packages, as for others, I don't think I have an answer for it ATM
 * tumbleweed isn't even part of the team, but shh
<micahg> stgraber: yes, I post there sometimes as well :)
<micahg> tumbleweed: you helped make tools :)
<geser> any other questions?
 * tumbleweed is done
<stgraber> nope
<geser> #vote Should Micah Gersten become an Ubuntu Core-Dev?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Micah Gersten become an Ubuntu Core-Dev?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<geser> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from geser
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<geser> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Micah Gersten become an Ubuntu Core-Dev?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<micahg> I'm honored, thank you :)
<jbicha> My apologies for being late again, do we have enough time left in the meeting?
<geser> as jbichs is now here, let's get back to: * jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files for the desktop-extra package set
<tumbleweed> jbicha: I see you just mailed us
<stgraber> looks good, I just wouldn't move vinagre for now until it's been officially dropped
<jbicha> stgraber: yes, that makes sense
<stgraber> I'm guessing all the -sharp moving from -desktop and core are because of the drop of tomboy, gbrainy and banshee?
<cody-somerville> +1
<micahg> I'm not comfortable with mono in there
<jbicha> micahg: why not?
<stgraber> micahg: I tend to agree with you, especially as we'll likely keep it in main as a common build-dep for a few packages in main
<micahg> jbicha: it's an entirely different system of packages
<stgraber> micahg: I'm quite surprised it's not currently in core
<micahg> jbicha: I'm fine with GTK/GLIB based apps and libraries
<jbicha> stgraber: maybe it's still in core?
<stgraber> jbicha: could be, I just assumed that if he wasn't in your list of stuff to drop from core it's because it currently isn't
<micahg> stgraber: I think since Kubuntu doesn't use it maybe
<jbicha> micahg: you're proposing that the set description say "except Mono" ?
<stgraber> yeah, it's in core currently
<stgraber> and also in cli-mono
<stgraber> and some bits are in ubuntu-desktop
<micahg> jbicha: no, I'd like it limited to GTK based apps/libraries, not cores of other stacks
 * micahg remembers pulseaudio on the original list but not in this update
<geser> do you want to discuss this now or per mail till the next meeting and/or IRC with #ubuntu-desktop?
<jbicha> micahg: ok, are you saying no to mono, but banshee for instance would still be ok?
<stgraber> banshee would be fine as it's part of the gnome project and not in the default install
<stgraber> mono is a programming language that's not part of the gnome project
<micahg> jbicha: yeah, since that's a GTK based app, I think that's fine + what stgraber said
<jbicha> ah ok, I don't have a problem with that then
<jbicha> I just misunderstand :)
<stgraber> in most cases I'm fine pulling some of the dependencies in the package sets, but pulling a whole language seems a bit too much :)
<micahg> yeah, I'd like to limit it to things that are developed as part of the GNOME project and not their core dependencies (pulseaudio, mono)
<geser> are you ready to vote on the package set? or on the next meeting?
<stgraber> I'd rather have a new package list. I don't think it's blocking a lot of work at the moment and I'd rather have it done properly the first time around
<jbicha> maybe vote on the mailing list?
<micahg> +1, I'd like a definition that limits this to GNOME developed apps as well (I think any external dependencies could be posed as an exception if it's worth adding)
<geser> ok, so next meeting it is
<geser> any other business?
<geser> any volunteers for chair?
<stgraber> geser: next one in alphabetical order, or just re-assign to cody :)
<geser> ok
<geser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  5 20:14:04 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-05-19.05.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks geser
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-06
<hallyn> \o
<smoser> #startmeeting Ubuntu Server Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  6 16:01:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<lynxman> o/
<smoser> there we go
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<smoser> Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> TOPIC: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> agenda shows none
<smoser> do we have any?
<Ursinha> no
<zul> hilo
<Daviey> lets go.
<smoser> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Precise Development
<Daviey> bug 883988: zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<Daviey> I believe that was confirmed to still be an issue?
<zul> Daviey: yeah ill have a look
<Daviey> zul: rocking, you'll be able to update in next weeks meeting?
<zul> da
<Daviey> bug 893926: No hurry, up for grabs.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<Daviey> bug 855030
<SpamapS> just a general call out, please test MySQL 5.5 as its build is quite different and we've already missed a few subtle things.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 855030 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Encountering sporadic AMQPChannelException" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855030
<SpamapS> like.. the fact that the client programs are statically linked to libmysqlclient. :-P
<Daviey> SpamapS: great.. lets go through the bugs first?
<Daviey> zul: ^^ Have you heard anything
<Daviey> ?
<zul> Daviey: no
<Daviey> k
<Daviey> bug 881903: hallyn, blocked on a new upstream version... you were investigating iirc?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881903 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc-fedora template is broken" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881903
<hallyn> it's near top of my list to do
<hallyn> but not at the top
<Daviey> cool
<hallyn> Daviey: that really is low prio...
<Daviey> hallyn: Yeah, it's really a marker for a "New upstream version" i think.
<hallyn> fair
<Daviey> bug 888124: jamespage ?
<hallyn> good news though, lxc reboot patchset is making progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888124 in excalibur-logkit (Ubuntu) "excalibur-logkit version 2.0-8 failed to build with openjdk-7" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888124
<SpamapS> Daviey: lag fail. ;)
<smoser> hallyn, woot!
<Daviey> hallyn: woot
<lag> SpamapS: Why do I always get the blame?
<Daviey> bug 607039: Up for grabs, experience of NFS probably required.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<Daviey> lag: because you are a plum.
<lag> Daviey: :)
<Daviey> bug 894713: defer to kernel section.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894713 in xen (Ubuntu) "xend init script should modprobe xen_gntdev" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894713
<smb> Daviey, Just found the bug again today
<smb> Am on it
<Daviey> smb: Rocking!
<Daviey> bug 833499: zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 833499 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "virt/disk.py unconditionally inserts public_keys into /root/.ssh/authorized_keys" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833499
<zul> ill take it as well
<smb> Daviey, and bug 607039 is still nearly solved. I think I asked something last and did not notice an update. But lately I seem to have problems with my filtering and lp mail
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<hallyn> eh?  didn't smb have an update on that?
<Daviey> bug 889644: Being worked on in Debian, volunteer to investigate / ping?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<smoser> for those following along at home, Daviey is walking down the list at http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> smb: Oh, didn't know you were kicking NFS.. great
<Daviey> hallyn: were you also?
<smoser> #link http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<hallyn> not since smb looked at it
<rbasak> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openmpi/+bug/889644/comments/2 says it's in progress on Debian
<Daviey> super
<rbasak> No idea about status though
<Daviey> rbasak: Fancy investigating?
<rbasak> OK, I'll ping the maintainer again
<Daviey> great.
<Daviey> bug 887186: RoAkSoAx ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: i haven't look at it yet. this week though
<Daviey> bug 893134: zul
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893134 in swift (Ubuntu) "swauth required for auth in diablo" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893134
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: cool
<zul> done
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: but given the change between squid and squid3 I don't think that bug will apply again
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: sounds good
<Daviey> rbasak: bug 858878 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 858878 in cobbler (Ubuntu Precise) "lack of csrf protection in cobbler-web" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/858878
<Daviey> isn't that fixed?
<zul> yes
<rbasak> I'm a bit confused about the status of this now
<rbasak> It needs an SRU too, doesn't it?
<zul> yes
<rbasak> But it contains many other fixes, which are we backporting?
<Daviey> rbasak: can you update the precise task?
<Daviey> rbasak: Are they they all sec' fixes?
<rbasak> what do you mean by update the precise task?
<Daviey> bug 862558: adam_g - deprecated bug for precise?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 862558 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu Precise) "cobbler-enlist is not checking for return codes enough" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862558
<Daviey> rbasak: Looks like the bug task is still open for precise?
<adam_g> Daviey: yeah
<Daviey> rbasak: as in, not fixed
<rbasak> ah
<Daviey> adam_g: bug 868488 , looking good in precise development?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 868488 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu) "Cobbler dns name of node needs to match system name" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/868488
<adam_g> Daviey: yup, as soon as the new rewrite lands that'll be fixed
<Daviey> adam_g: Might be a good idea to mark those Invalid if irrelvant.
<adam_g> ill do that
<Daviey> bug 871278, zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871278 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Cannot attach volumes to instances if tgt is used" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871278
<rbasak> something might have got lost in the branch merge, I'll track it down
<zul> this week
<Daviey> rbasak: rocking
<Daviey> zul: have i heard that before? :)
<rbasak> will it be sufficient to SRU the patch for the CSRF fix only?
<zul> Daviey: not this week :)
<Daviey> bug 875262: I think koolhead really needs some help with this, anyone jumping in?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<Daviey> rbasak: we'll talk about it after the meeting, slightly different process for sec' fixes.
<rbasak> ok
<zul> Daviey: if i can trade the tgt one with someone else then maybe ;)
<SpamapS> I can take a look at the php bug w/ koolhead
<Daviey> SpamapS: rock star!
<Daviey> SpamapS: talking of which, how is bug 887410? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887410 in apache2 (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouth ask-for-passphrase" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887410
<koolhead11> SpamapS: am absolute n00b i would admit
<SpamapS> I think its a simple fix, will update it to Triaged
<Daviey> super
<Daviey> bug 890362, zul ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should glance user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<zul> today
<Daviey> bug 891433, utlemming ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891433 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3 miss_access bug, fix not included in LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891433
 * SpamapS will be unavailable for the next few minutes
<Daviey> SpamapS: cool
<utlemming> its done
<Daviey> bug 876768, hallyn - i sync'd but didn't close the bug.. everything looking good?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876768 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] netcf" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876768
<utlemming> The merge request will go through once my build is done
<Daviey> utlemming: can you update the bug task please?
<Daviey> ah, cool.
<hallyn> Daviey: oh, i suppose so - haen't tried it since then
<Daviey> bug 891977: untouched since last week, i have a PPA package which fixes - but not yet merged.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891977 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler-web package still contain traces of Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891977
<hallyn> Daviey: there were a few bug requests from deiban already :)
<Daviey> hallyn: eek!
<hallyn> s'ok, i think they're hooking it into libvirt
<hallyn> win
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: bug 898838 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898838 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "Use chain.c32 rather than LOCALBOOT -1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898838
<Daviey> and RoAkSoAx: bug 898840
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<Daviey> Whilst RoAkSoAx is typing, any other bugs we should be working on?
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: taking care of this week
<RoAkSoAx> taking care of them this week
<Daviey> < SpamapS> just a general call out, please test MySQL 5.5 as its build is quite different and we've already missed a few subtle things.
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: bug #900349
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 900349 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] gfs2-utils" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/900349
<adam_g> Daviey: i think we might want to track bug #900553 tho i think it might be resolved with the pending merge
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 900553 in keystone (Ubuntu) "Any user can manage the keystone database via keystone-manage" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/900553
<Daviey> < SpamapS> like.. the fact that the client programs are statically linked to libmysqlclient. :-P
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: sitting in the new queue, then I'll request MIR for it
<Daviey> awesome!
<Daviey> Nobody working on anything not listed?
<hallyn> working on SRUs today...
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: on powernap today
<Daviey> \o/
<hallyn> sorry SpamapS
<koolhead11> testing keystone from zul PPA
<Daviey> (BTW, if anyone else wants to drive the development roundtable - please offer yourself. :)
<Daviey> smoser: move on?
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyone?
<smoser> i dont hae anything.
<smoser> so ...
<smoser> 5
<smoser> 4
<smoser> 3
<smoser> 2
<smoser> 1
<koolhead11> i might
<koolhead11> go to a college tech week this month
<Daviey> robbiew will be in Boston shortly for, erm
<robbiew> LISA
<hallyn> oh, fun
<Daviey> thassim
<hallyn> one of my favs
<SpamapS> sorry I'm back
<SpamapS> SCALE!
<Daviey> So be there if you are groovy.
<SpamapS> Feb 20, Los Angeles
<Daviey> SpamapS: never, ever, be sorry for being back :)
<SpamapS> err
<SpamapS> Jan 20
<SpamapS> haha
<SpamapS> http://www.socallinuxexpo.org
<Daviey> rocking
<SpamapS> There will be a Juju charm school on Friday, and Jorge and I are presenting.
<zul> budapest next month
<SpamapS> zul: thats not open to the public though
<zul> SpamapS: it could be :)
<SpamapS> BUT, if you are going to be in Budapest, we'll certainly come have a beer with you!
<smoser> ok
<smoser> enough batter
<smoser> moving on
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
 * SpamapS feels the coffee kicking in
<smoser> hggdh, ?
<smoser> anyone have anything for the man the myth the legend ?
<hallyn> yes
<hallyn> hggdh: did you ever fix your problem yesterday with kvm?
<hallyn> if not, can you open a bug?
<hallyn> it sounded scary...
<hggdh> here
<hggdh> no news from QA
<hggdh> hallyn: no, I did not. It flatly refuses to work, and no logs are generated
<hggdh> I will open a bug on it
<hggdh> ..
<hallyn> thx
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smoser> wooh
<smb> Nothing in particular. Some info in bug 607039 may be interesting in general. At least I did find out new things. :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<smb> bah
<smb> wrong one...
<smb> bug 886521
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886521 in linux (Ubuntu Oneiric) "CONFIG_XEN_PLATFORM_PCI should be "y" when building 3.1 kernel" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886521
<smb> yes that was the one
<smoser> alexbligh has some more fun bugs for you to read, bug 900799
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 900799 in cloud-initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "Cloud images on kvm use wrong disks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/900799
<smb> otherwise smoser, what do you have for me today :)
<smoser> he likes to do silly things, like attach the same disk to 2 different buses.
<smoser> so, smb please take a read at that.
<smb> Which is the thing xen does sort of
<smoser> sort of... although he points out that it might be more difficult.
<smoser> as in xen, you can compleletely ignore the emulated if you have the xen_pv
<smb> yeah, agreed
<smoser> but in kvm, you can't copletely ignore the scsi bus if you have virtio devices.
<smoser> so, its fun.
<smb> I guess he wants to do something like that under kvm
<smoser> right.
<smb> Not that I think it is supported
<smoser> s/wants to/does do/
<smoser> and wants you to support it
<smoser> :)
<smoser> anyway.
<smoser> thats all i've got
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
 * smb is so ... whatever
<Daviey> heh
<smoser> NCommander, ?
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<smoser> anyone have anything here ?
<lynxman> nothing on my side o/
<smoser> ok. i fyou happen to have something, you can fit it into open discussion
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<smoser> anyone have anythign for open discussion ?
<Daviey> Not here... :)
<smoser> if not, then we're dangerously close to finishing
<SpamapS> just a general call out, please test MySQL 5.5 as its build is quite different and we've already missed a few subtle things.
<zul> wait....wait....i got nothing
 * SpamapS repeats
<zul> SpamapS:  like what?
<lynxman> a pony would be nice
<smoser> anyone got any recent zul sitings ?
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> then here we go
<SpamapS> smoser: he's hibernating
<smoser> mdeslaur had my favorites.
<smoser> #Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> Tuesday 2011-12-13 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  6 16:41:34 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-06-16.01.moin.txt
<Daviey> \o/ thanks smoser
<smoser> smoser out
<SpamapS> smoser: ty
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury>  Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<apw> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  6 17:00:59 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<bjf> /closeo/
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel (1402.3) based off O/omap4@1206.13 has been uploaded and
<ppisati> it contains the large mmap() fix, armhf architecture support and some more
<ppisati> config syncs against master. Work on a 3.2 kernel has started.
<ppisati> lp#861296 ("mmap fails to allocate 2030Mb heap on ARM"): the fix has been
<ppisati> committed for [MNOP]/omap4 and L/imx51.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Last Updated: 2011-12-06 09:17:13.422472
<jsalisbury> === Release Metrics ===
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ==== precise nominated bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 35 linux kernel bugs (up 15)
<jsalisbury> ==== Ubuntu precise-alpha-2 bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 4 linux kernel bugs (up 4)
<jsalisbury> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 0 precise linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 7 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 9 natty linux kernel bugs (down 1)
<jsalisbury>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> === Incoming Bugs ===
<jsalisbury>  * 31 precise bugs (up 10)
<jsalisbury>  * 671 oneiric bugs (up 20)
<jsalisbury>  * 1632 natty bugs (down 5)
<jsalisbury>  * 1049 maverick bugs (down 1)
<jsalisbury>  * 951 lucid bugs (up 4)
<jsalisbury>  * 32 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> === Regressions ===
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 1 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 8 oneiric bugs (down 1)
<jsalisbury>  * 20 natty bugs (up 1)
<jsalisbury>  * 38 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 74 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 4 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 70 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 435 natty bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 236 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 207 lucid bugs (down 1)
<jsalisbury>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<jsalisbury>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 2 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw        || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||            || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking      || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || jsalisbury || other-p-bug-workflows                 || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara  || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-config-review       || 34 work items||
<ogasawara> || tgardner   || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||            || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-2 work items.  Note that Alpha-2 is Thurs Feb 2.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> Power Management:
<cking>  * Crowd-sourcing ALPM testing Wiki:
<cking>       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/PowerManagementALPM
<cking>    Please follow instructions and test. Note, you may be risking your
<cking>    data with these tests!
<cking>  * Exhaustive testing of pm-utils power.d scripts across various machines,
<cking>    write up and recommendations presented here:
<cking>       http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/power-benchmarking/pm-utils-results
<cking>       Recommend removing journal-commit + readahead power.d scripts
<cking>  * Complete PCIe ASPM crowd-sourcing, patch deployed in Precise-next
<cking>  * Investigating reducing psmouse interrupts
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have uploaded the 3.2.0-3.8 Ubuntu kernel which is based on latest upstream v3.2-rc4 kernel.  The 3.2.0-3.8 upload also resolved the remaining armhf build issues.  We are still witholding the patches to drop the i386 non-pae flavor until after the Tech Board discussion regarding the issue on Mon Dec 12.
<ogasawara> Important Upcoming Dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Feb 2 - Alpha 2 (~8 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   11 (--) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    5 (--) ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    5 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    5 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    8 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    5 (--) ||
<apw>  
<apw> We gained a couple of new CVEs this week and closed out the same number
<apw> so the overall stats remain static.  We only have fixes for two of the
<apw> remaining CVEs.
<apw>  
<apw>  
<apw> == 2011-11-29 (weekly) ==
<apw>  
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   11 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    8 (+2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    8 (+3) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    5 (+1) ||
<apw>  
<apw> We gained yet another 5 CVEs this week.  We closed out a couple.  Two of
<apw> the new CVEs await upstream fixes.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<apw> (oops)
<jsalisbury> apw, anything else to add, after the (oops)?
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Last week saw the verification and testing of the current -proposed
<bjf> updates. Here is the status for the main kernels, until yesterday (28/11):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.97
<bjf>   * Regression testing in progress.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-36.79
<bjf>   * 3 of 3 bugs verified
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-31.63
<bjf>   * Regression testing in progress.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.53
<bjf>   * 3 of 5 bugs verified
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-14.23
<bjf>   * Regression testing in progress.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> If nothing else to add then
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  6 17:12:02 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-06-17.00.moin.txt
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<sconklin> thanks jsalisbury
<apw> thanks
<smb> ta
<jsalisbury> ls
<highvoltage> Good evening
<ViaNocturna> Evening
<Andy80> good evening
<highvoltage> do we have quorum?
 * drubin is here
<brendand> hi
<highvoltage> we need two more board members for quorum
<drubin> I don't know if we are going to make it tonight
<Andy80> let's wait some minutes :)
<drubin> just saw the email from czajkowski saying she can't make it
<drubin> highvoltage: I am happy to wait, I should be around for a while
<roadmr> nooo :(
<Andy80> it would be sad for me :\ I've canceled an appointment to be here :(
<highvoltage> since there are few members on the list, we might schedule another meeting if this doesn't work out. it's probably not fair making eveyrone wait a whole month, especially considering that the next one would be smack bang in the middle of holiday time
<ViaNocturna> :-(
<drubin> highvoltage: I agree
<highvoltage> (I guess we should postpone that one by a week too, make it 10 January instead of 3 January)
<drubin> makes sense
<highvoltage> I'll take that to the list
<drubin> highvoltage: it is only 5mins, maybe lets give it another 5 mins at least before we cancel this one.
<cr3> highvoltage: maybe a good way to get those who really want to become members, make it january 1st! :)
<drubin> cr3: at 8am
<highvoltage> crehehe
<drubin> ;)
<ViaNocturna> cr3, in which case ill be there
<cr3> there's a reason why I'm not on the board or any board for that matter :)
<brendand> cr3 - not even the parole board?
<cr3> ViaNocturna: I'm just a pom pom girl for brendand today but I'd also be there just for him!
<roadmr> the water board even
<cr3> brendand: ... and perhaps on a water board
<highvoltage> I wonder what happened to iulian, he was speaking about the meeting just minutes ago in another channel
<ViaNocturna> how many members need to be present?
<Andy80> maybe someone is still having dinner, don't know....
<highvoltage> 4
<highvoltage> we currently have 2
<Andy80> it's almost dinner time here in europe
<Andy80> here he is :)
<highvoltage> you eat late!
<ViaNocturna> i know...its like 9pm here
<iulian> highvoltage: Having dinner as well.
<iulian> :)
<Andy80> highvoltage: I finished 20 minutes ago ;) it's 21:08 here :)
<highvoltage> let me see if I can get stgraber...
<stgraber> hey
<ViaNocturna> hey
<cr3> stgraber: woohoo, thanks for joining!
<micahg> highvoltage: FYI, if this is EMEA  it seems the fridge entry is out of date (seems to say 21:00)
<highvoltage> stgraber: do you know how to drive the new bot?
<highvoltage> micahg: yeah, the fridge gets confused every time there's timezone changes
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah, but I'm debugging some API breakage in the new tracker, so I can give you a 30s intro but not chair :)
<highvoltage> is ianfarell here?
<highvoltage> ok, I'll chair
<highvoltage> Welcome to this month's EMEA Regional Board Meeting.
<highvoltage> Candidates will be able to present themselves one by one in order of the agenda on the wiki page.
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<highvoltage> Only board members can vote.
<highvoltage> If you'd like to show your support for an applicant, please wait until it is their turn.
<stgraber> highvoltage: thanks
<highvoltage> Candidates should prepare an introduction of 1-5 sentences and also have a prepared wiki page for their application.
<highvoltage> is egyparadox here?
<highvoltage> Andy80: well, I guess it's your turn then. could you please introduce yourself and tell us why you want to be an ubuntu member?
<Andy80> yes
<Andy80> My name is Andrea Grandi, I'm an italian student and software developer. I use Ubuntu since its first version and in general I'm a Linux user since 1996.
<iulian> Isn't Iain first, highvoltage?
<Andy80> I've started contributing to Ubuntu since the first version, at the beginning only spreading its use and reporting some bugs. During last years I've also been involved in organizing events related to Ubuntu, I've contributed with some patches to Unity-2D and attended two UDS and leading a session during the last one in Orlando.
<Andy80> (I've prepared this before, to save time.... feel free to ask me any question)
<highvoltage> iulian: indeed, but I called him out earlier and he doesn't appear to be present
<Andy80> You can find my wiki page with the complete list of my contributions and testimonials here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaGrandi
<iulian> highvoltage: OK.
<highvoltage> any questions for Andy80?
<iulian> No questions from me.
<drubin> none for me
<highvoltage> I guess we're ready to go then
<highvoltage> Vote: Andy80 for Ubuntu membership: +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<iulian> +1
<drubin> +1 [long standing commitment, and good contributions ]
<highvoltage> +1 [ Ubuntu big fixes, great advocacy effort in italy ]
<stgraber> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<highvoltage> Andy80: congratulations and welcome :)
<Andy80> wooooooow :)
<Andy80> finally ^_^
<highvoltage> brendand: are you present?
<Andy80> yeeeeah :D
<iulian> Andy80: Keep up the good work!
<Andy80> iulian: you can bet on it! :)
<brendand> hi
<highvoltage> hi brendand, please introduce yourself
<brendand> My name is Brendan Donegan and I've been an Ubuntu user since Feisty and started contributing in a big way just over a year ago. I'm mostly involved in QA activities (Bug Squad, ISO testing) but also contribute code to the Checkbox test tool and sometimes to Ubuntu packages like Update Manager
<brendand> my wiki page is : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrendanDonegan
<brendand> It has all the details and some testimonials
 * cr3 testimonialed for brendand, if there's any doubt... his name is really Brendan :)
<highvoltage> any questions or cheerleading for brendand?
<brendand> Any questions?
 * iulian doesn't have any questions for brendand and is ready to vote.
 * cr3 cheerleads a "B" for "Brendan"
 * drubin is ready
 * bladernr_ cheerleads a "D" for ... D
 * stgraber is ready too
 * roadmr has an "R"
<highvoltage> Vote: brendand for Ubuntu membership: +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<drubin> +1
<highvoltage> +1 [ Great QA effort, hardware certificatoin, SRU hardware testing, Ubuntu Friendly, Bug squad ]
<iulian> +1
<cr3> stgraber: nudge :)
<stgraber> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<iulian> brendand: Well done.
<highvoltage> brendand: Congratulations and welcome!
<cr3> brendand: congratulations, you can now try to pickup girls in the pub by saying you're an ubuntu member!
<roadmr> congrats!
<ViaNocturna> congrats
<brendand> my wife will no doubt be indifferent
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: your turn :)
<iulian> Heh. :)
<ViaNocturna> hey there, my name is Arthur Moore, I am a 25 year old from Holland, I have been with Ubuntu since 6.06 and have helped in the forums IRC and writing applications for new users
<ViaNocturna> I have also tested beta versions for the last 2 releases and advocated Ubuntu to whomever would listen
<ViaNocturna> my wiki is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/arthurmoore
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: did you submit your test results to the QA ISO tracker?
<ViaNocturna> yes i did
<iulian> ViaNocturna: What kind of scripts have you written so far? Are they published somewhere?
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: I notice that you filed few bugs in Launchpad, what do you usually do when you encounter a bug in Ubuntu?
<highvoltage> (when testing the pre-releases)
<ViaNocturna> Yes I have written scripts to get Paltalk running on Linux, and also a program that will backup applications, all are on my website ubuntuarmy.wordpress.com
<ViaNocturna> Report it back the moment I encounter them
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: any other activities you'd like to share?
<highvoltage> any other questions of feedback for ViaNocturna?
<ViaNocturna> yes, I also started university and was the only ubuntu user, i converted half my class and also wrote instructions to connect to the network and handed that to the IT department
<highvoltage> ah, I saw that on your wiki page
<iulian> ViaNocturna: Are you involved with the LoCo team?
<ViaNocturna> iulian, unfortunately i dont drive and there isnt a loco team in my area
<highvoltage> Vote: ViaNocturna for Ubuntu membership: +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<drubin> +0 [ I think on the right track but very hard to see visible contributions ]
<highvoltage> +0 [ ViaNocturna is on the right path, signed the code of conduct and is actively envolved, but needs more involvement and feedback from people he has worked with on wiki page ]
<ViaNocturna> thanks for your feedback
<drubin> ViaNocturna: keep going! re apply in a few months
<ViaNocturna> i will, thank you so much
<iulian> +0 from me at the moment. I would like to see more work done in the areas that you want to help out. It is also good to get some testimonials from existing Ubuntu members.
<stgraber> -1 [ No testimonials, not much documented contributions, same goes for LP profile. Probably on the right path, would love to see you apply again a bit later. ]
<ViaNocturna> iulian, i understand...thank you anyway
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: yeah, you're definitely ubuntu member material, I think if you get more involved with the Dutch loco (there is one) and get some more information on your wiki as you work along you'll be able to do a bit better next time
<highvoltage> Result: -1
 * iulian nods.
<highvoltage> and that wraps it up for tonight, thanks for attending everyone!
<ViaNocturna> highvoltage, sorry i thought you meant local group
<drubin> highvoltage: Thanks for chairing
<highvoltage> ViaNocturna: yep, your country is local enough for us :)
<ViaNocturna> thank you
<ViaNocturna> highvoltage, lol thats true
<iulian> highvoltage: Thanks.
<cr3> stgraber: thanks man for taking a moment away from fixing your iso tracker api!
<highvoltage> next meeting is tentatively set for 10 January, we'll set it on the wiki page once confirmed
<highvoltage> meeting adjourned!
<Andy80> iulian, highvoltage, drubin what happens now? I mean... is there anything particular we have to do?
<ViaNocturna> take care all, and congrats to the new members
<roadmr> whee
<iulian> Andy80: What do you mean?
<Andy80> I don't know.... for the @ubuntu alias, for the cloak, for the blog feed ecc...
<Andy80> do we have to do something, contact anyone ecc..?
<iulian> I'm sure there's a wiki page explaining that, Andy80.
<drubin> Andy80: read the wiki it is all listed there :)
<Andy80> ok, fine ^_^
<Andy80> thank you all again and have a nice day :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: thanks for chairing twice in a row (at least)!
<brendand> thanks everyone
<pangolin> !membership
<ubottu> Ubuntu Membership means recognition of a significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community.  For more info see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<pangolin> should have info ^
<Andy80> yep, thank you ^_^
<iulian> Andy80: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership and click on the links under the "Benefits of Membership" section.
<iulian> Oh, I'm slow nowadays apprently.
 * iulian is getting old.
<iulian> s/apprently/apparently/
<MrChrisDruif> EMEA Membership meeting is over?
<alourie> MrChrisDruif: yes
<MrChrisDruif> Rats, log is on wiki.ubuntu.com/EMEA?
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-07
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 16:04:08 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> oh right... you're making me change my shuf command to cope with a new /nick, hmph :)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<jodh> slangasek: soz ;)
<slangasek> cjwatson jodh stgraber bdmurray ev slangasek doko barry
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<cjwatson> Fixed d-i explosion due to libselinux change (bug 899049).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 899049 in libselinux (Ubuntu Precise) "d-i based images reboots during installation" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/899049
<cjwatson> Spent more or less the entire rest of the week working on germinate 2.0 and corresponding Launchpad changes.  Worked through an extremely detailed review from jtv today (https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/refactor-cron-germinate/+merge/84624) and this is now approved and ready to go, which I'm fairly sure will result in 30-minute publisher runs; I just need to continue poking IS until I get some attention ...
<cjwatson> ... paid to the relevant ticket.
<cjwatson> Little bits of help with armhf.
<cjwatson> ..
<jodh> New nick (hopefully unique :) Raised MP for lucid for bug 771372.
<jodh> Finished Upstart job logging code for system jobs and posted to
<jodh> upstart-devel mailing list for review. After meeting with
<jodh> slangasek+cjwaton, we have identified the best strategy for logging of
<jodh> user job output (in progress). Re-reviewed setuid/setgid Upstart patch
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771372 in procps (Ubuntu Natty) "procps runs too early in the boot process" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771372
<jodh> which should be ready to merge by COB Friday along with the system job
<jodh> logging code. Currently re-reviewing "usage" stanza patch. Wrote a menu script
<jodh> (http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/utils/upstart_menu.sh,
<jodh> http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/utils/upstart_menu.png) to
<jodh> allow selection of particular Upstart binary under test. This speeds up
<jodh> my dev process, and could potentially be used by QA (and maybe even
<jodh> friendly-recovery). It also shows just how quick Upstart gets from
<jodh> "startup" to lightdm" (since by the time the menu is displayed,
<jodh> bios+kernel+initramfs is of course already loaded). Upstreamed a couple
<jodh> of man page changes that hopefully clarify system behaviour.  Upstart
<jodh> cookbook updates. On holiday tomorrow. Plan: Upstart merges, bug 553745.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553745 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553745
<jodh> Â§
<stgraber> oh, nice (upstart-menu)
<stgraber> - ISO testing
<stgraber>  - Finishing the API, got results API published yesterday
<stgraber>  - Most new features turned on (multiple results per user, hardware profile, accessing archived results, viewing removed results/builds, ...)
<stgraber>  - Still preparing the upgrade of the production server (waiting on IS)
<stgraber> - Edubuntu
<stgraber>  - Going to setup automated upgrade testing outside of Canonical DC for the flavours (spare time activity)
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Going to upload a new ifenslave today, thanks everyone for your feedback on the changes
<stgraber>  - Then working on bridge-utils and vlan, hopefully also updated this week
<stgraber>  - After a few weeks, looking at pushing at least the ifenslave change to other supported release
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Look at the new ifupdown in Debian (beta2), isolate the fix for bug 876829 and SRU to Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Start poking at resolvconf
<stgraber>  - Talk with cyphermox now that he's out of +1 :) (IPv6, complex networking in NM, dnsmasq, VPN stuff, ...)
<stgraber>  - Still need to get my iSCSI test setup online again and then look at the merge...
<stgraber> ..
<cyphermox> on that subject: I've been working on ipv6 privext patches for NM, almost done.
<stgraber> cyphermox: cool!
<stgraber> cyphermox: did you file a bug for that sysfs weirdness?
<cyphermox> (and it turns out somebody else was also working on this for Redhat too)
<cyphermox> not a bug, but sent an email to linux-netdev, no response yet
<stgraber> cool, thanks!
<bdmurray> bug triage of iso-testing bug reports
<bdmurray> discussion with mvo regarding changelogs.ubuntu.com and meta release files
<bdmurray> modification to cbd (collect bug data)  part of arsenal to check date_last_updated of bug tasks
<bdmurray> modification to cbd to use searchTasks's modified_since parameter
<bdmurray> wrote release notes regarding bug 891711 (downgrade option in ubiquity)
<bdmurray> review of bug bot work
<bdmurray> testing d3 graphing tool with recent package bugs
<bdmurray> ubiquity bug triage (primarily bugs due to memory issues when installing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891711 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) ""Upgrade" from 11.10 to 11.04 results in a unusable system" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891711
<bdmurray> bug pattern writing for bug 894768, bug 850264 and bug 882147
<bdmurray> updated firefox-lp-improvements for precise
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894768 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "Installation randomly fails with: File "/usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/install_misc.py", line 621, in copy_file targetfh.write(buf) IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894768
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850264 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "given a foreign architecture of i386 on amd64 machine, and an outdated libc, apt tries to remove libc-bin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850264
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882147 in linux (Ubuntu) "overlayfs does not implement inotify interfaces correctly" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882147
<slangasek> jodh: "just how quick" *does* it get from startup to lightdm?  Do your numbers that way line up with the holistic boot speed tests?
<stgraber> (for the record, the bug is that changing something in /proc/sys/net/*/conf/all doesn't apply to all the interfaces, so a bit annoying when we want to change a flag)
<bdmurray> jodh: I was looking at bug 849414 for more information yesterday and didn't find any debug log files attached to duplicates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849414 in plymouth (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849414
<jodh> slangasek: rough figure is ~2.5 seconds (in a VM admittedly :)
<slangasek> not too shabby
<jodh> bdmurray: yes, I know. the problem is is seems to be timing related and if you enable debug, you don't see the problem.
<jodh> bdmurray: s/is is/is it/
<bdmurray> actually when I looked at all plymouth bugs there were only 2 debug log files and they were from you ;-)
<jodh> bdmurray: :) they were gleaned through a bit of trickery too :)
<slangasek> stgraber: /proc/sys/net/*/conf/all - this has plagued me for years, and causes me to have to manually start radvd on my Debian armel gateway after boot... very annoying :P
<slangasek> hmm, no ev on channel
<slangasek> guess that means it's my turn
<slangasek> jodh, bdmurray: I don't think it's just a timing thing with the debug logs, I think part of it is that the problem is not 100% reproducible to begin with
<slangasek>  * slogging through email after returning from vacation
<slangasek>  * helped run an Ubuntu Local Jam here last weekend, tackling multiarch libraries for ia32-libs: http://web.dodds.net/~vorlon/wiki/blog/Making_jam_from_bugs/
<slangasek>  * shepherded these fixes into precise
<slangasek>  * merged Ubuntu armhf ld.so support into Debian eglibc
<slangasek>  * TODO this week:
<slangasek>   * looking at multiarch for gstreamer
<slangasek>   * looking at various improvements to resolvconf that are in the wild to get them integrated for precise
<slangasek> ..
<doko> - a mostly ARM week
<doko> - fix packages to build on armhf, that do build on armel
<doko> - openjdk updates and running zero and jamvm tests
<doko> - fix build failures in main for armhf
<doko> - fix build failures in package sets for armhf
<doko> - look at libreoffice armhf port, won't continue myself, bug #900636
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 900636 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Precise) "libreoffice ftbfs on armhf" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/900636
<doko> - linaro gcc 4.5 and 4.6 merges
<doko> - gcc cross merges from Marcin
<doko> - prepare gdc for armhf
<doko> - start cross-building gnat for armhf
<doko> - llvm-3.0 and dragonegg updates
<doko> - MIR's, syncs, merges
<doko> - stop looking at eglibc-2.15 for now
<doko> ..
<barry> more python-dbus porting to python3.  after initial branch discussion with scott mcvittie, and review of https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26420&action=View i reworked my port so that object-paths, signatures, etc. are unicodes instead of bytes.  this made it much easier to pass the existing test suite because the callback dispatching code didn't need to be rewritten to handle byte slicing and comparisons.  new branch pushed
<barry> to lp and patch submitted to the above tracker issue.  i've already gotten one bug report from arch linux :).  spent some time reporting and debugging https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43303 without success.  todo: package this version up into a ppa, advertise it a bit more, and start to port an app (probably c-j).  along the way, i had to fix python issue 11147 http://bugs.python.org/issue11147.  i was patch pilot yesterday.
<barry> reviewed a webified version of my dh_python2 tutorial: http://www.rowinggolfer.org/tutorials/packaging/dh_python2_tutorial.html.  also if you're interested, i am writing a chapter on mailman3 for the next edition of the aosa book: http://www.aosabook.org/en/index.html.  done.
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 26420 in python "Patch to make D-Bus Python compile under Python 3" [Normal,Assigned: ]
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 43303 in python "dbus-python test suite failures" [Normal,New: ]
<jodh> slangasek: right. I have a script which attempts to force it (http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/plymouth/test_plymouth.sh), but that's "post boot" of course.
<slangasek> and it looks like armhf now has main fully built, aside from libreoffice \o/
<cjwatson> oh, well done on python3-dbus
<barry> cjwatson: thanks!  hopefully this will pass upstream's muster
<barry> lots of great lessons learned to, which i'll blog about soon
<barry> s/to/too/
<slangasek> thanks all
<slangasek> any more questions for each other on this week's activity?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: what bugs do we need to fix?
<bdmurray> There have been a few pm-utils assigned to us recently, but you've seen at least one of them
<slangasek> I saw three, I've triaged two of them so far
<bdmurray> and then in bug 766265 there is some question, from the reporter, as to whether not it should still be fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 766265 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "Ubiquity proceeds to use free space without warning" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/766265
<slangasek> the third one looks like it's a spelling bug... not going to the top of my urgency list :)
<bdmurray> comment #25 and comment #27
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes, three is all I see
<cjwatson> although I know Erick thinks he wants my input, it seems like a design issue rather than something I can usefully weigh in on
<bdmurray> so should mpt be consulted?
<cjwatson> wait
<cjwatson> is it just a matter of whether the button should change to "Install Now"?
<cjwatson> sorry, the bug is kind of long
<cjwatson> but looking at comment #15 and wondering if that would be enough
<cjwatson> if it's more than that mpt would need to have a look
<cjwatson> but if it's just that, I can probably fix it
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll follow up with Erick
<cjwatson> comment #19 from Erick suggests that
<cjwatson> so possibly no need
<cjwatson> I just wish this were less verbose :-)
<cjwatson> and less raising of side issues mid-bug
<bdmurray> having a bug be too verbose is an interesting problem to have
<bdmurray> as opposed to "fix it"
<barry> bdmurray: +1
<bdmurray> or "I don't know"
<slangasek> I usually find the too-verbose bugs more frustrating ;)
<cjwatson> true, but there's a threshold beyond which I stop being able to focus
<bdmurray> okay moving on ;-)  bug 898787
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898787 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "(k|l|x)ubuntu 11.10 failed to install with error in install_misc.py assert cache._depcache.broken_count == 0" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898787
<cjwatson> yeah, saw that in my inbox, but haven't dug in yet - see above comments about being in a cave hacking on LP all week :)
<cjwatson> in general that sort of vaguely means "the current system is inconsistent, I have no idea what to do"
<cjwatson> but no idea how that would happen on install, even if it is over the top of an existing one
<cjwatson> I don't suppose somebody else could look at that, since I'm on holiday for the rest of the week?
<slangasek> stgraber: ^^ could you look at this?
<slangasek> bdmurray: there are 6 duplicates; does that tell us anything about how frequent the problem is?
<cjwatson> hmm
<bdmurray> slangasek: those were manually marked so it might not
<cjwatson> were there any language pack updates recently?
<slangasek> ok
<stgraber> yep, I can have a look
<slangasek> cjwatson: there were, and there was some breakage on the first go
<cjwatson> I vaguely recall something about -base not being promoted to -updates
<bdmurray> slangasek: I'll look after the meeting
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> that would probably cause this, although it would be nice if that didn't cause stable installs to crash ...
<cjwatson> so quite possibly dormant but should be fixed for robustness
<ScottK> cjwatson: I hit the regression panic alarm about it a few days ago.
<cjwatson> stgraber: thanks
<cjwatson> ScottK: I think that's what I saw.  pitti seemed to be on top of it by the time I noticed though.
<cjwatson> 2011-12-01, sounds about the right kind of time
<ScottK> Yes.  He was.
<ScottK> I don't know if anyone did a comprehensive check to see if any others than the one I hit got missed.
<slangasek> the latest duplicate is dated 2011-12-05
<slangasek> which is certainly after ScottK/pitti worked on it
<ScottK> Yep
<cjwatson> Unless out of date mirrors were involved
<slangasek> otoh, the reports include locale data
<cjwatson> (But sure, it could be something else)
<slangasek> heh, true
<slangasek> language-pack-gnome-sv-base | 1:11.10+20111025 | oneiric-proposed | source, all
<slangasek> missing from -updates
<slangasek> (bug #900571)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898787 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "duplicate for #900571 (k|l|x)ubuntu 11.10 failed to install with error in install_misc.py assert cache._depcache.broken_count == 0" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898787
<slangasek> cjwatson: so apparently we don't have a systematic check for these; any idea how we can fix that?
<cjwatson> it probably ought to be an alarm in the pending SRU report
<cjwatson> maybe we can run britney over oneiric-updates too
<cjwatson> well, oneiric+oneiric-updates
<slangasek> cjwatson: do you want to take the action on that?
<cjwatson> yeah, why not
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to look at running britney over $release+$release-updates, to catch inconsistencies caused by incomplete SRU publication
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson to look at running britney over $release+$release-updates, to catch inconsistencies caused by incomplete SRU publication
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<bdmurray> that's it from me then
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> psusi has filed an MP with ureadahead performance improvements - could somebody have a look at it?
<cjwatson> (sorry, don't seem to have the URL to hand, but it should be easy to find)
<barry> i think this is it: https://code.launchpad.net/~psusi/ubuntu/precise/ureadahead/faster/+merge/84556
<cjwatson> ta
<barry> looks like luke is looking into it
<slangasek> didn't he say on IRC that he was punting on it and wanted someone else to look?
<cjwatson> OK, though I don't know if he was just patch-piloting
<barry> (or maybe psusi is, the comment is ambiguous ;)
<slangasek> he was patch-piloting
<slangasek> I would look at the ureadahead branch but can't promise to get to it... so if someone else wants to volunteer... :)
<jodh> slangasek: I can have a look. What's the urgency on this?
<slangasek> jodh: not particularly high AFAIK
<slangasek> jodh: and thanks :)
<jodh> slangasek: works for me then :D
<slangasek> one other thing on bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<slangasek> I challenged you guys a while ago to get this list down by the end of the year
<slangasek> well, two bugs have been fixed - good work!
<slangasek> and two more have taken their place ;)
<slangasek> I think I'm going to start doling out the bugs to assignees so we make some headway
<slangasek> so if there's a bug you'd like to work on from that list, go ahead and claim it or you might get assigned another one :-)
<cjwatson> yow
<cjwatson> guess I'd better start hitting mine in earnest next week
<cjwatson> sorry
<slangasek> I've taken bug #874774 for myself... which is cheating, a community member has triaged it and provided a patch ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874774 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu Precise) "could not mount /dev/mapper/cryptswap1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874774
<slangasek> cjwatson: there are lots of other demands on people's time of course, I just don't want us to lose sight of these bugs
<slangasek> which in theory are some of the highest-impact persistent ones
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> sounds like a 'no
<slangasek> '
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec  7 16:58:18 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-07-16.04.moin.txt
<doko> I'd like to start with the libjpeg-turbo uploads
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<doko> assuming that the archive is in a good state
<slangasek> doko: #ubuntu-devel?
<doko> ok
<jodh> cheers
 * charlie-tca waves at QA people
<gema> hi charlie!
<gema> we are starting!
<charlie-tca> I made it?
<gema> indeed :)
<gema> #startmeeting QA Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 17:00:45 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
 * kamusin :)
<gema> hello everyone, who's present for the QA meeting?
<brendand> hi
<charlie-tca> o/
<roadmr> hello!
 * kamusin o/
<gema> let's summon some others hggdh jibel_ nuclearbob patrickmw , are you guys there?
<nuclearbob> yep
<patrickmw> sure am
<gema> ok, let's get started
<gema> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<gema> ACTION: gema to add lubuntu and Xubuntu testing updates to the agenda (gema, 17:08:59)
<gema> I did that , we are discussing those , you can check the agenda in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<gema> we can move them around if that's preferred
<gema> ACTION: patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins (gema, 17:16:20)
<patrickmw> in progress
<gema> ok, so we'll keep it there for next week
<gema> #action patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<meetingology> ACTION: patrickmw to publish a list of launchpad projects that conform our automated testing in jenkins
<gema> #topic Blueprints Update Precise
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Blueprints Update Precise
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-builds-smoke-testing
<gema> ok, any updates on this, anyone?
<kalosaurusrex> hello Aaron here
<gema> hi kalosaurusrex , go ahead
<gema> kalosaurusrex: do you want to give us an update?
<kalosaurusrex> I don't have an update exactly.  but is there someone who checks the builds daily anyway?  I was thinking about setting up a script that would pull down the daily and I could do a quick check as we add to the smoke test etc
<gema> kalosaurusrex: we are doing that in jenkins, let me paste a link to it
<gema> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Daily%20ISOs/
<gema> you can see there whether our basic install and little more testing passed or not
<kalosaurusrex> awesome thanks!
<gema> patrick will be publishing the list of launchpad projects that have the code we are running
<charlie-tca> o/
<gema> I don't think there's any update from us either, except that patrick and myself are trying to get jenkins to show the results in a nicer fashion
<gema> charlie-tca: go ahead
<charlie-tca> I am not sure, but it looks to me like a run on jenkins 9 hours ago was yesterday's images, or am reading times wrong?
 * alourie just barely made it
<gema> charlie-tca: if I count well, 9 hours ago are 8am london time
<charlie-tca> So it is me?
<gema> charlie-tca: that is the usual time by when the new images are ready and jenkins starts automagically
<charlie-tca> Okay. Then I got confused again on times
<gema> charlie-tca: no probs
<gema> alourie: welcome
<gema> ok, other thing we are doing is trying to put together a bug report that shows which defects we've found on these executions
<gema> nuclearbob and I are working on that one too
<gema> we'll let you know when it is ready
<gema> moving on to the next topic then
<gema> #subtopic #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-boot-speed-testing
<gema> patrickmw ?
<patrickmw> * New info available on reports: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/boot-speed/dell-vostro-3400/index.html
<patrickmw> * Still need to add Lucid benchmark to all systems
<patrickmw> * Adding more systems over the next few months
<patrickmw> ..
<gema> good, thanks
<gema> if anyone has questions please interrupt me, I won't be asking explicitely
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-kernel-sru
<gema> sconklin ?
<sconklin> I've been doing two main tasks.
<sconklin> The first is an initial look at some performance tests that may be useful for measuring kernels for uses like Ubuntu Studio and other critical audio and video apps
<sconklin> Nothing conclusive has come out of that yet
<sconklin> The second is take perform  a comprehensive look at LTP (Linus Test Project)
<sconklin> and determine what we should be running out of that test suite that we are not already running
<sconklin> as well as getting a better handle on our management of that test suite as part of our automated testing
<sconklin> That's about it.
<sconklin> ..
<gema> cool, thanks a lot
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-standard-sru-testing
<gema> jibel_: ?
<gema> I don't think he is around, so let's move on
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-test-case-management-tool
<gema> I had a conversation with the mozilla guys and they seem to be moving away from litmus and are developing a new tool, called CaseConductor that seems to be improving litmus
<gema> we are considering to go for that one, especially because they are finishing development now and are willing to accommodate our requirements. I am in the process of gathering those to be able to talk to them
<gema> So we may have to do some beta testing of their tool in exchange, whenever they are at that stage, in January
<gema> for the time being, it would be good if we used for our work of improving existing test cases, just spreadsheets, find a template at the bottom of the test case page
<gema> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TestCase
<gema> ..
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-backlog
<gema> does anyone have an update on backlog tasks?
<gema> or wiki improvements or similar?
<alourie> o/
<gema> alourie: go ahead
<alourie> alright
<alourie> so, we've started working on 7 items list
<gema> yep, brendand named it Wiki x)
<gema> (he didn't like my numbers, they are impersonal)
<alourie> :-)
<alourie> personally, I'm not sure that wiki itself should update much
<alourie> but qa.ubuntu.com may
<brendand> gema - you're welcome ;)
<alourie> brendand: you should send the list with names :-)
<gema> ok, alourie , this is the wiki we are talking about right: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<alourie> yes
<alourie> it's quite up to date, maybe couple of things should be updated
<gema> I think it doesnt' really reflect what we are doing, does it?
<alourie> but the qa.u.c site seems to be abandoned
<alourie> well
<alourie> gema, why not?
<gema> alourie: because it seems to talk about bugsquad tasks which we are not necessarily focussing on
<gema> and it doesn't touch on the changes we are working on
<gema> what we are trying to achieve
<gema> I don't think we are doing good PR with that page
<gema> if you know what I mean
<gema> we are not inviting many people to help :D
<alourie> gema: oh, so you want to split it, so QATeam would specifically be concentrated on testing?
<alourie> ^^
<gema> yep, that's what we've done already with the meeting and stuff
<gema> it is good to have a link to the bugsquad page
<gema> but we need to be clear on what our objectives are
<gema> which we are not
<alourie> ah, ok, got you
<alourie> agreed
<gema> so, I haven't had time to think about this
<gema> nor our tasks page is linked
<gema> or the active members are mentioned
<charlie-tca> Wouldn't it be better to rename the teams, QA testing and QA bugsquad?
<gema> but this needs some thinking
<alourie> charles: that would be a bit misleading I think
<gema> the bugsquad is already the bugsquad, they have a name
<brendand> BugSquad should be just that
<alourie> brendand: +1
<gema> the problem is that we seem to imply we are doing the same thins
<gema> things
<charlie-tca> but both teams are what QA is
<gema> no, bug triaging is one thing
<gema> QA is another thing
<gema> both important
<gema> but different
 * brendand agrees
<alourie> gema: wait a sec
 * kalosaurusrex agrees
<alourie> you mean that QA and BugSquad would split totally?
<gema> alourie: I think we have split totally
<charlie-tca> So, QA is only TESTING, it has no other functions?
<alourie> ahh
<gema> we have bdmurray helping us with our bug classification problems
<alourie> I haven't thought about it like that
<gema> etc
<gema> so we collaborate
 * alourie agrees
<gema> charlie-tca: QA is about ensuring the quality of the OS
<alourie> now I get it
<gema> not just testing
<gema> there is more to it than just testing
<alourie> gema: well, ensuring by means of testing...
<alourie> :-)
<gema> we may care about counting how many bugs we find, for instance
<alourie> ok, I get it now.
<gema> but not about triaging them as such
<brendand> what kind of bugs we are missing, etc
<gema> brendand: +1
<alourie> +1
<gema> cool, alourie , can you give it a thought on this light
<gema> and see what you come up with?
<gema> re qa.u.c, I agree, we should be posting more often
<alourie> sure.  I think that we need a our "mission statement" to be refreshed
<gema> alourie: agreed
<alourie> ok, then I'll do that.
<gema> charlie-tca: are you happy with this?
<txomon> So, is that split documented with all that involves somewhere, or are we deciding it no?
<charlie-tca> I am confused than anything else. I will just have to see how it all ends up.
<gema> charlie-tca: ok
<txomon> s/no/now
<gema> txomon: we are trying to document it
<brendand> o/
<alourie> sorry guys, baby needs to go to sleep, I must leave now. I will read logs later.
<gema> txomon: and we will need collaboration with the bugsquad for that
<gema> ok alourie
<gema> brendand: ?
<alourie> gema: great then
<brendand> just to say that bug triaging can be considered a bridge between QA and the 'debugging' aspect of development
<gema> brendand: noted, we may continue this discussion on the list, we need to keep going
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-qa-regression-testing
<gema> nuclearbob: ?
<nuclearbob> I've got an auotest package now
<nuclearbob> I'm getting it into better shape so it'll do al the necessary configuration and support upgrading and removal correctly
<nuclearbob> when we get the new hardware in the lab, we can install it and setup some test nodes to run the qrt scripts through autotest
<nuclearbob> ..
<gema> thanks!
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-automated-test-submissions
<gema> patrickmw: ?
<patrickmw> This is the next priority item for me.  I've started on it since boot speed is coming together
<patrickmw> Nothing major to report
<gema> cool, thanks
<gema> #subtopic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-qa-metrics
<gema> nothing to report on this apart from the bug report nuclearbob and I are working on
<gema> #subtopic Community Tasks - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TasksPrecise
<gema> anything on the tasks that needs discussing and we haven't touched base on yet?
<kalosaurusrex> o/
<gema> kalosaurusrex: go ahead
<kalosaurusrex> so I have created a list of applications and verified against the manifest. All good there. My question is there set of criteria that we want to start with for applications to test during the smoke test?
<gema> kalosaurusrex: what I said in the email is what we have
<gema> developers needs need to be covered
<gema> and testers needs too
<gema> so any app that a dev or a tester would need to do their job needs to be smoke tested
<gema> so that we find the problems as early as they are introduced
<gema> does that make sense?
<kalosaurusrex> Okay makes sense.  I was defiantly going to have a separate test for each.  I guess I was wondering if anyone had anything specific or I can start building a list and email it out for suggestions.
<gema> making sure unity is up and running, for instance, with a ps or a top command
<gema> all simple things
<kalosaurusrex> Okay gotcha :)
<gema> ok, thanks for the work you are doing :)
<gema> moving on then
<gema> #topic Update Xubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Xubuntu
<gema> charlie-tca: ?
<charlie-tca> tested images this week. Today, all Xubuntu 64bit images fail to install
<charlie-tca> This appears to be a transmission uninstallable bug
<charlie-tca> ..
<gema> charlie-tca: thanks
<gema> #topic Update Lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Lubuntu
<gema> anyone from Lubuntu with an update for us?
<gema> ok, next week then
<gema> #topic Update Ubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update Ubuntu
<gema> hggdh, jibel_ ?
<gema> ok, resting after A1, I guess
<gema> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> anything else anyone?
<patrickmw> o/
<gema> go for it patrickmw
<patrickmw> Thanks to jibel for sharing http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/precise_probs.html
<patrickmw> This page gets updated with known Precise stability issues
<patrickmw> I created this job: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/job/precise-problems-check/
<patrickmw> The job runs every hour and checks for issues.  If issues are found, the job will fail and send an email to ubuntu-testing-notifications@lists.ubuntu.com
<patrickmw> ..
<gema> patrickmw: excellent, thanks a lot to you and jibel
<gema> anything else?
<gema> ok, we are done then
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec  7 17:44:00 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-07-17.00.moin.txt
<gema> thanks everyone for coming!
<roadmr> thanx!
<charlie-tca> gema: thank you for chairing and for your patience
<gema> charlie-tca: not a problem, thank you all for your time
<nuclearbob> thanks for chaiting
<hggdh> +1
<gema> hggdh: I thought you were off! :)
<hggdh> no, I was not :-)
<gema> ok :D
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 18:01:40 2011 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<hggdh> ~o~
<bdmurray> So this is the 2nd bugs meeting after the breakup ;-)
<hggdh> indeed
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> pedro had an action to update wiki + send email re the BugSquad Meeting
<bdmurray> the wiki looks updated to me
<hggdh> so we are done there
<bdmurray> the email was sent too?
<hggdh> hum
<bdmurray> I found it
<bdmurray> so yes
<hggdh> yes
<bdmurray> however the topic in #ubuntu-bugs needs to be updated
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray update the topic in #ubuntu-bugs regarding meetings
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray update the topic in #ubuntu-bugs regarding meetings
<bdmurray> that's it for the action items from the last meeting
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> the foundations team is looking at bug 898787 and now and I've found a few more duplicates of it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898787 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "(k|l|x)ubuntu 11.10 failed to install with error in install_misc.py assert cache._depcache.broken_count == 0" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898787
<bdmurray> we are also planning to update ubiquity so that dpkg messages in ubiquity log files are in English
<bdmurray> this'll make bug pattern writing and duplicate finding easier going forward
<bdmurray> I've also been working with a different graphing tool to show some more dynamic bug stats
<bdmurray> Ursinha: Do you have anything?
<hggdh> mia?
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray send bugs meeting announcement before the next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray send bugs meeting announcement before the next meeting
<bdmurray> hggdh: maybe that'll help ;-)
<hggdh> heh
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: Anything going on in kernel bug land?
<bdmurray> moving on then
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> hggdh: Do you have anything?
<hggdh> yes
<hggdh> I have closed the mentorship, and now I am only left with removing the teams
<hggdh> we need to think about the videos, etc
<hggdh> ..
<bdmurray> Yes, I emailed popey and got some information about tools etc
<popey> "some information" = a wall of text âº
<bdmurray> So its on the list
<hggdh> k
<hggdh> heh
<bdmurray> I've recently been working a lot with a bug report generation and gathering tool in arsenal
<bdmurray> I'm rather excited about that and the graphing stuff.
<bdmurray> Okay then I think that covers it.
<hggdh> and I am to grab some data on harvest
<bdmurray> hggdh: hm?
<hggdh> dholbach and I discussed a bit what we can do with harvest
<hggdh> extend, provide a better user interface, etc
<hggdh> this has been a bit dormant, but I will get to it
<bdmurray> hggdh: ah cool
<hggdh> but this is it, from me
<bdmurray> okay thanks
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec  7 18:21:52 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-07-18.01.moin.txt
<hggdh> thank you bdmurray
<charlie-tca> Thank you for chairing, bdmurray
<kamusin> thanks guys :)
<moergaes> Hello world
<tenach> hello moergaes
<moergaes> Hi
<moergaes> I guess I am a little too early here...
<plars> https://wiki.linaro.org/Platform/Infrastructure/LinaroCIBuildTestService#Setting_up_Jobs_on_ci.linaro.org
<plars> oops, wl, sorry :)
<moergaes> New guy asking: Is there a meeting going on here?
<jrgifford> moergaes: don't think so, the #lubuntu meeting got cancelled.
<moergaes> Well, it would have been nice with a message explaining this.
<Yorvyk> There is a message on the mailing list
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-08
<tbruff13> how do i add myself to the list for the next meeting
<tbruff13> I am a high school student who is doing a senior project on Ubuntu I will be trying to convert my entire parish to Ubuntu
<tbruff13> is anyone here
<tbruff13> can someone help
<JackyAlcine> tbruff13: Subscribe to the calendar : http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<ogra_> moo
<ppisati> o/
<GrueMaster> snort.
<infinity> *shifty look*
 * ahs3 yawns
<ogra_> well, despite our chair person missing, lets get started
<ogra_> #startmeeting ubuntu-arm
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  8 15:08:02 2011 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:
<ogra_> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20111208
<ogra_> seems ther are no action items
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> so lets go over the standing items ...
<ogra_> [topic] spec status, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  spec status, http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<ogra_> doesnt look bad ... are all specs on there now ?
<ogra_> shout if you are missing any
<infinity> I should probably fill in some work items on my specs before I get yelled at, shouldn't I?
<ogra_> might help
<infinity> And I should break the livefs-in-soyuz WI out of image-pipeline into a spec. :/
<infinity> Cause, well, a month of work isn't a WI.
<ogra_> also make sure they are approved, have a prio and are assigned to precise by davidm
<GrueMaster> My bare-metal spec is still under review.
<ogra_> poke davidm please, once he is back
<GrueMaster> Not that it matters much.  It was mainly designed to be informational.
<ogra_> i really would like to have the tracker working before i start my vacation in a week
<infinity> ogra_: I'm on holidays in a week and a day.  Can I count on you to bug me to make sure my specs are sane before that?
<infinity> (Today's a bit too busy on the armhf porting front for me to do too much paperwork/drafting)
<ogra_> infinity, will try to, i'm on vac. from 19th on myself
<ogra_> moving on then ...
<infinity> ogra_: From the 16th here. :)
<ogra_> well, thats the same :P
<infinity> ogra_: No, as in, I'm taking the 16th off.
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<ogra_> aha ... yeah, ok, thats different
<ogra_> Daviey, any server news (since NCommander seems to have vanished off the face of the earth)
 * ogra_ suspects not ...
<ogra_> well, lets move on ... we can come back to it if someone serverish shows up
<ogra_> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> armhf support has hit the archive (as you may have noticed)
<ppisati> and 3.2.0-x too
<ogra_> apart from mx5 i think
<infinity> Has anyone taken the 3.2 omap4 for a solid spin on a Panda yet?
 * ahs3 is server-ish but has no news
<ppisati> infinity: i found a bug this morning
<ppisati> ogra_: mx5? is it community supported or what?
<ogra_> ppisati, linaro
<infinity> Now that mine's not stuck building ghc, I can make it grumpy with 3.2 and armhf.
<infinity> ppisati: Yay bugs.  Is it any worse than the ones we currently have? :)
<ppisati> infinity: panic on reboot if a usbhdd is used, i already pushed a new kernel with an ext4 fix and that too
<ppisati> if pulling the cord on reboot is not a problem, feel free to update now
<ogra_> we only provide SD images anyway ... just ignore it :P
<infinity> ppisati: Snazzy.  I need to test if 3.2.x fixes all my NPTL/TLS woes, and I suspect it will, from what markos has been saying.
<ppisati> else, wait until tomorrow
<ppisati> ok
<GrueMaster> No, don't ignore it!
<ogra_> heh
 * ogra_ wasnt serious 
<ppisati> ogra_: do you want me to do the armhf stuff for mx5?
<janimo> sorry fior being late, hhello
<ogra_> ppisati, ask jcrigby
<ppisati> ok
<infinity> ppisati: Should be jcrigby's alley, no?
<ogra_> janimo, np
<janimo> ppisati, is that not linaro task?
<ogra_> janimo, i guess john appreciated help
<janimo> zalong with a 3.0 kernel for mx5 whic I hear is available
<infinity> Anyhow, we're in no huge rush on mx5/armhf.  We have Panda and ac100 to play with.
 * ppisati leaves the mx5 to its destiny...
<GrueMaster> I would assume we want armHF on mx5, since everything else is moving off armel.
<ppisati> :)
<ogra_> and we would appreciate being able to build images :)
<infinity> And lots of bugs to shake out.
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> GrueMaster, we do, but we're suddenly so ahead of time that it doesnt bite us to wait another week or two
<infinity> Well, and we have plenty of userspace bugs to shake out.
<ogra_> especially for an image thats a "tech preview"
<infinity> Kernel space is identical from armel to armhf, so I'm less concerned.
<ogra_> any other kernel bits ?
<infinity> We'll get there.
<ogra_> else i'll move
<infinity> ogra_: Boogie on.
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> (and everyone else :) )
<infinity> Thanks to armhf, the armel FTBFS list is looking better too. :P
<infinity> In fact, the whole distro is.
<ogra_> armhf ftbfs looks very very good
<infinity> armhf == free rebuild test.
<janimo> gave back a few things, next up libo test, once I install armhf on the board
<ogra_> yep
<infinity> libreoffice needs love.  Not sure if doko and Sweetshark are still going back and forth on that.
<infinity> I hope so.
 * ogra_ looked into some bits and wasted a lot of time for getting an ubiquity build env up today...
<infinity> I'm working on ghc and gnat.
<janimo> infinity, I'll look at it, doko said he's done as far as he's concerned
<infinity> And we have people pondering looking at fpc.
<ogra_> anything else ?
<GrueMaster> netinstall.
<infinity> (fpc needs a full port and bootstrap at the upstream level, if you speak fluent pascal and arm ASM without context-switching between the two, speak up)
<ogra_> ftbfs ??
<GrueMaster> No, fail to install.  libc6 udeb.
 * ogra_ moves on 
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> i guess there isnt much to add
<infinity> There we go.  Now you can bring up netinst. ;)
<ogra_> wouldnt that belong into images ?
<infinity> other than "things are going really, really well with armhf" (much better than expected), we have some bugs to shake out.  Installer oopses, etc.
<GrueMaster> Someone is moving the meeting too fast for me to type.
<infinity> ogra_: It's both?  I dunno. :P
<infinity> ogra_: It's HF-specific, I believe.
<ogra_> the queue seems to have ~3000 packages ... is that accurate ?
<infinity> ogra_: Yeah.
<ogra_> wow
<doko> qtmobility needs fixing
<ogra_> so we should be doen by the weekend
<infinity> ogra_: FSVO "done"... There's lots to do still.
<ogra_> doko, universe *shrug* .... that has time
<doko> ogra_, kubuntu package set
<infinity> Universe is big.  Fix early, fix often.
<ogra_> argh
<ogra_> how about the kubuntu guys ? did someone talk to them ?
<infinity> It just has a bad symbols file.
<infinity> 5 minute fix.
<infinity> Move on.
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> started hf testbuilds
<ogra_> which was somehow trashed in the middle by broken packages
<ogra_> a new omap4 build is just running now
<ogra_> if that succeeds too (ac100 works already) i will switch on autobuilds tomorrow
<infinity> netinst needs (at least) my mklibs fix uploaded and a d-i rebuild.
<infinity> But might need more.
<ogra_> for everything but mx5
<GrueMaster> yep.   hunspell-en-us broke the world (not just arm)
<ogra_> yep
<infinity> It sure did.
<ogra_> but its fixed
<ogra_> as is ubiquity
<ogra_> so i dont expect the currently running omap4 build to fall over
<ogra_> but we'll see :)
<ogra_> anything else for images
 * ogra_ waits for GrueMaster to not speeed to fast for the old man :)
<GrueMaster> Hey!
<ogra_> *g*
<ogra_> ok, moving then
<infinity> We're all old. :P
<ogra_> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<ogra_> GrueMaster, stage is all yours
<GrueMaster> Still working on automation for SRU testing.  Seems that everytime I get one test working for QRT, another breaks, due to x86 requirements.
<ogra_> how about your jenkins stuff, when is that due to move to the official jenkins instance ?
<GrueMaster> And I still don't have a clear scenario on what to test for SRU approval.  Currently I run the QRT kernel tests, and a few other things.
<ogra_> (doesnt seem to be there yet ... i was looking for it for a report i had to write for david yesterday)
<GrueMaster> I won't move it to Jenkins until I can get it stabilized here.
<ogra_> ah, k
<GrueMaster> And since I have very little visibility with them, it is much harder.
<ogra_> well SRU approval is indeed tricky
<ogra_> since it usually refers to one specific bug
<ogra_> which your test would have to reproduce
<GrueMaster> Only in that there is no documented "This is what we run to approve".
<ogra_> well, "does the bug still occur" is what we run i would guess
<ogra_> no idea if thats even remotely automatable
<ogra_> you can surely automate regression testing ...
<GrueMaster> Problem with that is that there are a LOT of tests that were fixed on x86 that still exist on arm.
<ogra_> but likely not the verifgication
<GrueMaster> I can only automate what I know (which isn't much).
<ogra_> right
<GrueMaster> And when the upstream test scripts keep breaking, I have to manually intervene.
<GrueMaster> Making automation moot.
<ogra_> indeed :/
<GrueMaster> So far, this have been my primary focus since UDS.  And it is taking way too much of my time.
<ogra_> any chance to get some external help from i.e. linaro ?
<ogra_> i would assume they suffer similar issues in some areas
<ogra_> or do they do everything from scratch
<GrueMaster> It isn't really a linaro thing.  It is mainly working with the security team to fix their wrt test scripts.
<ogra_> ah, yeah, and thats something linaro doesnt touch at all
<GrueMaster> And linaro is more interested in performance benchmarking.  Not sure they do any SRU testing.
<ogra_> they dont do SRUs indeed
<ogra_> anything else for QA ?
<GrueMaster> I would like to thank NCommander (if he were here) for providing me a hacked netinstall for Maverick & Natty on Panda.  At least I can automate the install for that part of the SRU testing.
 * ogra_ applauds the absent NCommander 
<GrueMaster> It also has helped expose a bug introduced in another package (procps) that was in proposed.
<GrueMaster> That affected all platforms.
<ogra_> great
<GrueMaster> And I'm done.
<ogra_> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
<GrueMaster> Nothing more to see here, move along.
 * rsalveti waves
<ogra_> heys rsalveti
<rsalveti> guess no much to report during this week
<rsalveti> marcin was able to push some of the fixes to doko
<janimo> rsalveti, do you know what the status of mx5 3.0 kernel is?
<rsalveti> for the cross toolchain
<rsalveti> janimo: we should be pushing a new 3.1 kernel soon, once jcrigby is done with the ci bp
<ogra_> rsalveti, with the enormous speed that armhf gets forward we are very likely to swithch asap
<GrueMaster> Can you nudge your guys to fix the beagleXM network issue?
<rsalveti> probably in the next few days
<ogra_> rsalveti, is linaro prepared for that ?
<rsalveti> ogra_: sure :-)
<rsalveti> we also want to switch asap :-)
<ogra_> (wrt binary drivers mainly)
<janimo> rsalveti, ah great. So 3.1 will be pushed to the archives
<rsalveti> ogra_: well, that's the complicated part
<rsalveti> talked with ti but that is still not a priority for them
<ogra_> rsalveti, i'll bring the panda stuff up in tomorrows call
<ogra_> but what about beagle ?
<rsalveti> yeah, would be better to do the follow up tomorrow
<ogra_> or other vendors
<rsalveti> ogra_: same thing, they don't care much about armhf atm
<ogra_> do you have any lever in linaro you could move them with ?
<ogra_> sigh
<rsalveti> sure, anmar is our guy for it
<rsalveti> will ping him about it
<ogra_> that smells like another release without unity 3d
<ogra_> even though we have the code now
<rsalveti> nicolas said he'd try to build the driver for armhf
<ogra_> nothing we will support can run it
<rsalveti> and then see how that goes, but if he needs to put some work on that, it'll probably be hard to have it released
<ogra_> rsalveti, right, as i said, thats for the call rtomorrow
<rsalveti> yeah
<janimo> rsalveti, regarding the cross-build of firefox and chromium that riku is doing, do you know what can be done to get the multiarch-fixed libs in precise? They are now in a PPA, and riku has no upload right, but I am not sure if anything is done to push them ATM
<ogra_> and he is aware that he has all bits for building already
<rsalveti> janimo: yeah, that's why we have https://blueprints.launchpad.net/linaro-ubuntu/+spec/push-multiarch-changes-for-cross-precise
<rsalveti> janimo: the goal for this bp is to have at least everything in a bug with the patch attached
<rsalveti> but atm he's doing well on both ubuntu and debian
<rsalveti> janimo: and also poked him to update your request for feedback
<janimo> rsalveti, I saw that but it was not clear to me whether wotk is ongoing or stalled (or not a prio for linaro)
<janimo> wrt pushing to the main archive
<rsalveti> janimo: that's the main thing he's working atm
<janimo> ok
<rsalveti> he finished the chromium one already
<janimo> thanks
<rsalveti> so now he's just working on pushing it to precise
<rsalveti> feel free to ping him about it anytime
<rsalveti> guess that's all from my side
 * ogra_ guesses FF has a higher prio on our side 
<rsalveti> so two actions
<ogra_> at least thats how i understood smagoun
<janimo> well having all the depends in is what matter a lot too, as others use them
<rsalveti> yup
<ogra_> yep
<ogra_> anything else ? more questions ?
<rsalveti> nops
 * ogra_ moves to AOB then
<rsalveti> how to add action with this bot?
<rsalveti> should use #action?
<ogra_> i think angled brackets
<ogra_> but hash might also work
<ogra_> try it :)
<infinity> I thought it was square braces? :P
<rsalveti> #action rsalveti to track the gles driver status for armhf for the vendors we support
<meetingology> ACTION: rsalveti to track the gles driver status for armhf for the vendors we support
<ogra_> youre so square :P
<GrueMaster> Its hash, but has to be done by the moderator.
<rsalveti> yup :-)
<GrueMaster> Or that.
<ogra_> GrueMaster, apparentl not :)
<ogra_> rsalveti, you said two actions ?
 * ogra_ waits for the second before he moves to AOB
<rsalveti> #action work with jcrigby to update the mx53 kernel
<meetingology> ACTION: work with jcrigby to update the mx53 kernel
<rsalveti> done!
<ogra_> great :)
<GrueMaster> #action rsalveti to kick someone to fix bug 838200
<meetingology> ACTION: rsalveti to kick someone to fix bug 838200
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 838200 in u-boot-linaro (Ubuntu Precise) "No network support on Beagle XM" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/838200
<rsalveti> sorry, I'm in two meetings
<ogra_> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-arm Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: thanks
<ogra_> anyone ?
<GrueMaster> :)
 * ogra_ has nothing
<infinity> I'm dry.
<ogra_> seems nobody else either
<ogra_> going once
<ogra_> twice...
<ogra_> sold to the guy in underwear ....
<ogra_> #ednmeeting
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  8 15:48:09 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-08-15.08.moin.txt
<ogra_> pfft
<GrueMaster> Hey, that's me!
<ogra_> now pay !
<ogra_> :)
<ahs3> tmi :)
 * GrueMaster hands underwear to ogra.
<ogra_> eeek !
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-09
<JarGonBuster> I was using MS visio, I want to know some of its alternatives for ubuntu
 * skaet waves
 * ogra_ shores
<mdeslaur> \o
 * skaet giggles at the shores remark
<ogra_> :)
<jibel> o/
<mlegris> \o/
 * kenvandine waves
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Dec  9 16:01:11 2011 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-12-09
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Individual team status links will be added to it from: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/thread.html;   this has been done with the past ones.
<skaet> .
<skaet> During round table Q&A time,  please post link to your mail message, and any additional comments.  When you've finished comments/questions signal by ".."
<skaet> If you want to ask a question,  please "o/" so we know to wait for you.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Schedule for this release will be at:
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet> .
<skaet> We've now passed Feature Definition Freeze,  and status tracker has been reset.
<skaet> There are now  2278 work items (up from 2084 on 2011/11/25), and we're starting to fall below the trend line (partially due to additional items being added).
<skaet> Please review your items and make sure status is accurate.
<skaet> #link  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<skaet>  .
<skaet> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/16 - Last weekly meeting of 2011
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/06 - Weekly meeings resume
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/09 - DebianImportFreeze
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/02 - '''Alpha 2'''
<skaet> .
<skaet> Alpha 1 testing of the new ISO tracker (http://91.189.93.73/) went very well.  :D.
<skaet> A big thank you to stgraber, jibel, cjwatson and pitti and all the folks who tested the release!
<skaet> IS has moved the tracker to the main servers and are working through a couple of glitches, but its new home is http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/.    Daily testing results and bugs can now be logged there now going forward.
<skaet> ..
<ogasawara> skaet: are those meeting dates correct?  or show the first two be reversed?
<skaet> ogaswara,  good catch...
 * skaet has typo there
<skaet> Last meeting is 2011/12/16 - ie. next week.
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> ok,  time for the round table.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<mlegris> hi all!
<skaet> :)
<mlegris> A1 testing has been postponed
<mlegris> we have moved the testing period to after the holidays
<mlegris> this is due to restrains with vacations and testing pools
<skaet> o/
<mlegris> yes skaet?
<skaet> am a bit concerned that the results will be dated by then
<skaet> can we resynch when you're able to do the testing
<mlegris> correct, we would not be using the A1 image, we would use a more recent image
<skaet> and decide if it makes more sense to do the daily.
<skaet> ack.
<mlegris> right, thats our thinking as well
<skaet> ok,  one other area I'm concerned about is making sure the blockers
<skaet> from oneiric are identified as affecting p or not before then.
<skaet> can that be done,  even if we don't have full cert run?
<mlegris> It can be done, but not for all the systems
<mlegris> so it would be partial to which labs have the manpower to test and update the bugs
<skaet> hmm.... lets discuss the details more offline then.   thanks.
<mlegris> sure thing
<mlegris> Thats my main report for this meeting :)
<mlegris> ..
<skaet> thanks mlegris.   I've pasted your mail link into the agenda too.
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
<jibel> hi
<skaet> :)
<jibel> Additionally to what is written on our team report, we spent the week tracking red balls on
<jibel> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Daily%20ISOs/
<jibel> Now all the tests are almost green excepted upgrades
<jibel> server minimal is partially failing because the resulting installation is oversized. jamespage  is putting it on diet.
<jibel> now working on lts upgrades
<jibel> boot speed test results are published at http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/boot-speed/
<jibel> please have a look
<jibel> ..
<jibel> any comment/question ?
<skaet> Thanks jibel!
<skaet> re: from the report on smoke tests being generated by community - is there a link for the procedure to add them to Jenkins?
<jibel> not yet, it's a WIP
<pitti> we fixed some major upgrade bugs today
<pitti> looking forward to tomorrow's/Monday's autotests
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> hi!
<skaet> :)
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000572.html
<mdeslaur> we've been pretty much occupied with all our reactive work
<mdeslaur> not much progress on the work items front
<mdeslaur> that's about it!
<mdeslaur> .
<skaet> Thanks mdeslaur!    anyone have questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000574.html
<ogasawara> I forgot to mention in my email that during our config review session at
<ogasawara> UDS, we identified some configuration discrepancies between flavors.
<ogasawara> We'll be evaluating these discrepancies more closely in the coming weeks
<ogasawara> which will likely result in a few config tweaks most likely for arm or
<ogasawara> powerpc.
<ogasawara> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogasawara!
<ogra_> omap4 was already generalized i think
<skaet> any questions?
<ogra_> ..
<ogra_> (final bits went in this week)
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - stgraber
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000573.html
<stgraber> so as skaet mentioned, the state of the QA tracker changed a bit since I sent that e-mail with http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com being online now
<skaet> *\o/*
<stgraber> we're still tracking some bugs, one being critical (API not working) and another one rather annoying (reports failing due to old Postgres)
<stgraber> I have RTs for both but no ETA
<stgraber> hoping for the former to be fixed ASAP as currently all the builds and results need to be added by hand...
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!
<mdeslaur> stgraber: any chance of successfully bribing foundations to revert to using the "admin" group? :)
<ogra_> any security issues with that ?
<ogra_> ..
<stgraber> mdeslaur: I don't know much of the history about that particular one (except seeing it happening), I think it may need some desktop+foundations bribing :)
<pitti> please send mail before doing that, though
<pitti> the admin->user change came unexpectedly enough, we'll need to change umpteen packages again to change it back
<mdeslaur> ogra_: consistency and security auditing...not a big issue, but it's an unexpected change for users
<pitti> no objections from here, it should just be coordinated
<ogra_> ah, k
<ogra_> ..
 * skaet looks around for other questions....
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - Daviey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - Daviey
<skaet> is Daviey or anyone else from server team around?
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
<ogra_> ha ! me !!
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000587.html
<ogra_> armhf FTW !
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> ..
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> arwoof
<skaet> Thanks ogra_ !  re: armhf - congrat!!!
<ogra_> (and a HUGE praise to infinity and doko for all that work)
<doko> as a side note ... http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/primary-precise-armhf.html
<ogra_> dokos manager shoudl think about bonuses already ;)
<ogra_> ..
<ogra_> doko, its in the mail ;)
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> very nice news indeed.  :)  and agree, big thanks to infinity and doko.  :)
<doko> ... starts looking useful for other architectures too, showing general build failures, not just armhf
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
 * skaet not seeing fabo,  but notes he has dependency on DX..
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000570.html
<skaet> dbarth, ^^ can you respond to thread after meeting?
<dbarth> skaet: yes
<skaet> thanks!
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
<skaet> hmm,  not seeing him in channel,  moving on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
 * kenvandine steps in :)
<pitti> nothing from me aside from the already sent report
<pitti> any questions?
<skaet> sorry kenvandine pitti told me.
<kenvandine> pitti!
<pitti> (need to run in some 10 mins)
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000581.html
<skaet> anyone have question?
<skaet> Thanks kenvandine and pitti.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<skaet> :)
<dbarth> the report is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<dbarth> the main thing to underline
<dbarth> is the completion of the build and test automation infrastructure
<pitti> huge congrats on this!
<dbarth> and the fact that at least unity shell is now connected with the autopilot test suite
<pitti> it certainly caused a lot of pain, but it's so great to see this working now
<dbarth> compiz is still a bit behind, and the unity-qt side is close though
<dbarth> ..
<skaet> Thanks dbarth!   congrats on getting test suite up!  :)   new blueprint also noted.
<skaet> dbarth, what day that first week in january are you expecting unity updates to land?
 * skaet wondering if we're back on a regular day DX changes landing or not...
<dbarth> (otp at the same time sorry)
<skaet> dbarth,  ok, will follow up with you offline.
<dbarth> thursday sorry
<dbarth> normal upload window
<skaet> ack.  will follow up offline.
<skaet> thanks
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> :)
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000578.html
<Riddell> I'm a bit concust and not thinking all straight, so let me know if I make any mistakes
<Riddell> and I'll be back into KDE packaging slowly next week
<Riddell> ..
<ogra_> its good to have you back !
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> Thanks Riddell!   glad you're back as well!
<skaet> Riddell,  Is there a backup contact I should be working with for Kubuntu on the milestone testing going forward?
<Riddell> skaet: not currently I'm afraid
<skaet> ack.  let me know if you come up with one.
 * skaet looks around for any question?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber
<stgraber> hey again
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000575.html
<stgraber> so biggest thing this week is the automated upgrade testing, first complete "clean" run of edubuntu, kubuntu, mythbuntu and xubuntu is still running
<stgraber> results will appear on the tracker once the API works again
<stgraber> oh, and I'm sure highvoltage would really like some news from Kubuntu (if he didn't get any yet) as the TB meeting is on Monday and will likely be the last for this year. So would be good to have LTS sorted there.
<stgraber> I think that's it
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!
<Riddell> yes I plan to do the TB things on monday
<stgraber> Riddell: thanks!
<skaet> Good to hear the auto-upgrade testing is now clean for edubuntu!  :)
<stgraber> oh, and btw, so far Edubuntu and Kubuntu upgrade fine from Oneiric to Precise on both i386 and amd64
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
<madnick> hi
<madnick> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000569.html
<madnick> As you see, not much is new :)
<madnick> ..
<skaet> Thanks madnick.  no issues are nice :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - ScottL
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - ScottL
 * skaet not seeing him in channel though...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> hi :)
<skaet> :)
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-December/000577.html
<gilir> additional item, desktop daily ISOs fail to be published
<gilir> log : http://paste.ubuntu.com/765014/
<gilir> ..
<skaet> Thanks gilir,   will look into the publishing failure after the meeting.
<gilir> thanks skaet :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
<tumbleweed> hi, nothing to report from us
<skaet> thanks tumbleweed!  anyone have questions on MOTU?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments questions: ?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments questions: ?
<skaet> heh,  looks like thats it,  and we're ending in under an hour.  :)
<skaet> Thank you to everyone who put their status's in email.  It helped alot!
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Dec  9 16:53:33 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-09-16.01.moin.txt
<ogra_> thanks skaet !
<skaet> Thanks  mlegris, jibel, mdeslaur, ogasawara, stgraber, ogra_, pitti, kenvandine, dbarth, Riddell, madnick, gilir, tumbleweed.
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-10
<Unit193> Howdy, oCean
<oCean> mornin'
<Unit193> No
<oCean> o/
<bazhang> \0
<funkyHat> Ã´/
<Unit193> /o\
<bazhang> incoming!
<funkyHat> \Ã´>
<oCean> Dear IRCC, I expected an IRCC meeting at this point..
<jussi> Im here
<jussi> 1 sec
<oCean> ah, no prob
<jussi> right, wheres the topyli monster...
<jussi> elky: ping?
<jussi> nhandler_: ?
<jussi> bah, gues we have to wait a min
<jussi> trying to get Juha on phone.
<Unit193> Oh boy, 6am so I'm dead tired :P
<jussi> hey topyli!
<topyli> hi. sorry, had to run for buzzyness
<jussi> topyli: are you phone or pc bound?
<topyli> i have a computer now
<jussi> excellent. your chairing since elky isnt here
<topyli> honored :)
<topyli> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Dec 10 11:13:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is topyli. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<topyli> do we have quorum by any chance?
<jussi> topyli: lets do the membership app first, shall we?
<topyli> alright
<jussi> or hang on, Ill go find some rmb meber to step in
<jussi> meh, lets do it. we can grab someone later or grab one of our members on the ML.
<topyli> #topic Membership applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Membership applications
<topyli> there's one, funkyHat
<jussi> funkyHat: lets have your spiel :)
<topyli> funkyHat: would you like to introduce quickly?
<funkyHat> erm
<funkyHat> Hello â¢)
<topyli> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MattWheeler
<topyli> that was quick :)
<funkyHat> Not really sure what I should say here. Ubuntu Membership is my next step in infiltrating the evil Ubuntu machine.
<jussi> funkyHat: you give us a quick intor to who you are and what you do.
<czajkowski> morning
<jussi> right, so czajkowski has agreed to step in as a replacement for this membership application.
<funkyHat> Ok. I am an operator in #ubuntu-offtopic, as well as helping out in #ubuntu and a few other channels
<czajkowski> o/
<topyli> yay czajkowski
<sagaci> hi funkyHat
<funkyHat> I've also done various other things including bug reporting, some bug and FTBFS fixes (but not for quite a while as I've been extremely busy with real lifeâ¢)
<funkyHat> I also do quite a bit of ubuntu activism at uni, and did at college before that, as well as installing ubuntu and supporting it on friends' computers
<jussi> funkyHat: so where do you see you main areas of contribution going forward?
<funkyHat> The reason I've applied through the IRCC rather than an RMB or the DMB is I think most of my contribution has been IRC related
<czajkowski> funkyHat: what areas would you like to see an imprivement on in the IRC world ?
<funkyHat> Going forward I'd like to get more involved with the IRC team in general, I'd be happy to have +o in more channels if extra help is needed
<czajkowski> ok thanks
<funkyHat> I'm also interested, if time permits, in standing for the IRCC. But even if that doesn't happen I would still like to take more of an active role
<czajkowski> funkyHat: and on the IRCC how do you think that group can help with ops and governance? have you thougt about that kinda thing? just curious
<funkyHat> I think the main thing I'd like to see improved is the (real or percieved) level of beuracracy.
<czajkowski> thanks.
<czajkowski> I'm out of comments.
<jussi> funkyHat: do you intend to continue your bug fixing work?
<funkyHat> Yes. I am still hoping to, eventually, get upload rights through the DMB, but I think I won't get to that point for quite a while
<jussi> right.
<jussi> topyli: any comments or questions?
<topyli> i was going to say i miss testimonials for your "real world" advocacy and help (i'm well aware of your irc contributions), but i understand that many of those people may not be the wiki-editor type
<jussi> funkyHat: also, do you have anyone here who you want to "cheer" for you?
<topyli> i do the same (fix people's windows computers by replacing the problem with ubuntu) and i know how happy the people are when everything goes well
<LjL> I think it may be inferred from this talk that Matt can become the shy type when it comes to talking about himself, I'd extend that to actively looking for testimonials ;)
<jussi> LjL: did you have any comments on matts behalf?
<LjL> Matt didn't receive the IRC survey, so I asked him to help me with mine.
<funkyHat> Yes I do find it quite difficult to talk about how amazing I am. My thought process mostly degenerates to talking about hats or food
<LjL> I can say he has a fair bit more input than he managed to convey here
<czajkowski> and I've seen funkyHat active in #ubuntu-uk helping folks.
<LjL> Oh sure, he does help in other channels too. Overall I think he doesn't help *too much*, or do anything *too much*. I find that a plus, because I've often seen people getting "burn out" before time.
<LjL> He is balanced.
<jussi> right, topyli, vote time?
<funkyHat> I was hoping h00k could make it too, but as he mentioned on my wiki page it would be 4:00am where he is
<topyli> i'm happy enough to vote at this point, unless someone wants to add/ask something
<topyli> #vote Accept funkyHat as member
<meetingology> Please vote on: Accept funkyHat as member
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<jussi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jussi
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<topyli> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from topyli
<topyli> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Accept funkyHat as member
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jussi> congrats funkyHat
<LjL> \o/
<funkyHat> yaaaaaaayy â ââ¢D
<czajkowski> funkyHat: congrats
<topyli> congratulations funkyHat, and thanks for applying
<czajkowski> jussi: are there more folks today?
<jussi> thanks czajkowski for stepping in.
<funkyHat> Thank you
<jussi> no
 * funkyHat hugs everyone
<czajkowski> jussi: grand I can go back to bed now
<czajkowski> nn
<jussi> nn
<topyli> night czajkowski, thanks
<czajkowski> np
<LjL> goodnight
<topyli> #topic Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<topyli> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
<topyli> no newo nes, are there?
<topyli> we went through bugs last time: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports
<jussi> nope.
<jussi> oh wait
<jussi> nah, I remember one. but it was bots.
<topyli> for my own part, i have not emailed the IRCC list about https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671 . i have closed https://launchpad.net/bugs/883119
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 883119 in ubuntu-community "Issues needlessly in the IRC Council's private issue tracker" [Undecided,Fix released]
<topyli> #action topyli to finally mail council about the operator recruitment process
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli to finally mail council about the operator recruitment process
<topyli> i think others are well in progress or stalled
<LjL> It would help if Launchpad worked... :P
<LjL> Guess maybe we overloaded it! It works again now.
<topyli> ircc meeting effect
<topyli> the guidelines bug should be un-stalled. let's advertise the draft again
<jussi> topyli: +1 to that.
<topyli> i can send mail to list when i'm doing email at some point
<topyli> #action topyli to advertise guidelines draft on team ML
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli to advertise guidelines draft on team ML
<topyli> moving on?
<jussi> yup
<topyli> #topic Review last meeting's action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review last meeting's action items
<topyli> i've decided against sending the #lubutu ops call. this council won't be able to handle it, especially thinking about probation and mentoring
<topyli> so i'd leave it for the next one
<jussi> Im in agreeance with that.
<topyli> it's not urgent in any way
<topyli> ok
<topyli> #agreed defer lubuntu ops call to new council
<topyli> #agree defer lubuntu ops call to new council
<topyli> bah.
<topyli> agreed :)
<LjL> Is the bot supposed not to reply to PINGs?
<topyli> no idea. i'm probably just using the wrong commands
<LjL> The command is in the list, though. Maybe it's napping.
<topyli> yeah
<topyli> let's move on, undaunted!
<topyli> #topic Change eir default behavior
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Change eir default behavior
<topyli> pangolin: around?
<jussi> I dont see any background info on the proposal page :/
<elky> gah sorry, someone decided to play with a fire extinguisher, which means we all had to evacuate for the fun of it.
<topyli> jussi: it's there at the bottom, but it doesn't look like he really has a clear idea what he wants
<LjL> I have no idea what the proposal is about, but I'll mention it would be nice if eir ignored the floodbots, I guess. It could be the other way around, but I'm not sure that's the best idea... as eir would still go blah blah comment your ban please to the bots, and highlight what the bots do in the team channel.
<topyli> elky: hi :)
<topyli> elky: we're just wrapping up, no worries :)
<topyli> LjL: that's true
<oCean> his proposal is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<elky> aw man, we made funkyHat a member? :P what *is* this world coming to? :P I turn my back for half a second and you do things like this :P
<funkyHat> â¡â¢)
<topyli> :)
<oCean> Also, I'd like to go back in time just a bit to cheer for Funkeh, now it's just Congrats!
<topyli> LjL: we'll see how that can be arranged, it would reduce noise, and there's no need to have the bots 'discuss' like that
<LjL> topyli: yeah. If it can't be done, I'll make the FloodBots ignore eir instead.
<topyli> aye
<topyli> well, i'd like to just wrap up then
<LjL> I have a misc. item, may I?
<LjL> Not sure whether it's for the IRCC or CC meeting though.
<topyli> try it and see :)
<LjL> It's about the Ubuntu IRC Members team.
<LjL> I'm not sure it was its intended behavior for people who are ops but not members to be unable to vote on things or receive IRC surveys or other stuff...?
<jussi> ljl: read the description on the wiki about it?
<LjL> jussi: you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Membership ?
<jussi> but in anycase, I think Its a cc thing.
<jussi> ljl, yeh.
<topyli> well i'd like all ops to be able to vote for the ircc, but yes it's up to the CC
<LjL> Uhm well, I'd just like to point out that it seemed backwards to send an IRC satisfaction survey to lots of people, excluding some ops.
<topyli> indeed. we picked the irc members team as the audience, but that obviously wasn't a very good decision
<LjL> Ok. Well I guess I'll bring it up with the CC later.
<topyli> thanks
<topyli> oh, and
<topyli> #action topyli to ask if eir can be tweaked to ignore floodbots
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli to ask if eir can be tweaked to ignore floodbots
<topyli> other issues?
<elky> nope
<LjL> Thanks for taking the time to making that survey, in any case.
<topyli> i still want to do a more proper analysis, but that's pending
<topyli> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Dec 10 12:08:25 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-10-11.13.moin.txt
<topyli> thanks all, and congrats funkyHat :)
<funkyHat> Thankyou á¡â¢
<Unit193> So, next meeting is supposed to be the 25th, tath going to happen that day?
<topyli> oh good point
<topyli> we'll either reschedule or just cancel it, and inform
<Unit193> Alright, thannks
<topyli> i'll post the minutes once i get to doing them
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-11
<astraljava> Okay, who's with me today for the Ubuntu Studio meeting?
<shnatsel> me
<shnatsel> sorry for the lag
<astraljava> No worries. Scott said he'd be here as well, but a bit late. Let's wait for him to arrive before we begin.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, here
<astraljava> #startmeeting Ubuntu Studio contributors
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Dec 11 17:14:47 2011 UTC.  The chair is astraljava. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:
<astraljava> Hi all.
<astraljava> Agenda for today can be found @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011December11
<astraljava> Let's get right down to it.
<astraljava> #topic Old Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Old Business
<astraljava> I'm going through the subtopics, being the previous action items.
<astraljava> Oh, and please when you give your status, add #info in front of it.
<astraljava> #subtopic Scott email list regarding work flows: INPROCESS
<scott-upstairs> this is a funny one, i've emailed but not all responses are in
<scott-upstairs> i'm going to have to develop new areas to research for advice unfortunately as i don't expect answers from some quarters
<scott-upstairs> so leaving as 'inprocess' is good
<scott-upstairs> ..
<scott-upstairs> dman, forgot the #info
<astraljava> Just hit up arrow and home, then #info.
<scott-upstairs> #INFO this is a funny one, i've emailed but not all responses are in
<scott-upstairs> #INFO i'm going to have to develop new areas to research for advice unfortunately as i don't expect answers from some quarters
<scott-upstairs> #INFO so leaving as 'inprocess' is good
<scott-upstairs> ..
<shnatsel> hmm, never got that message I think... or missed it :(
<astraljava> #subtopic Jon email list for separate meeting for work flows discussion: INPROCESS
<astraljava> Jon isn't here, is he?
<astraljava> Anyone know of the status of this?
<scott-upstairs> jon emailed me direfctly to say he is busy with final in school
<scott-upstairs> argh
<astraljava> Ok, that's good enough.
<scott-upstairs> #info jon is busy with schoolwork
<scott-upstairs> #info but there will be some further cleanup required in the wiki once more information has come in
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> #subtopic stochastic to email list about how much social interaction on new website: TODO
<scott-upstairs> #info this should be marked as 'DONE' as he did email the list
<scott-upstairs> #info his final direction is to suggest that we include closed source/proprietary social media to reach a broader audience
<scott-upstairs> #info i second his suggestion
<astraljava> #action astraljava to mark 'stochastic to email list about how much social interaction on new website' as DONE.
<scott-upstairs> ..
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to mark 'stochastic to email list about how much social interaction on new website' as DONE.
<astraljava> Thanks, Scott.
<scott-upstairs> aye ;)
<astraljava> #subtopic Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later: TODO
<astraljava> This should be marked as done, right?
<scott-upstairs> i think so, but we haven't really lived up to it, have we?
<astraljava> #action astraljava to mark 'Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later' as DONE
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to mark 'Decide alternating meeting times on channel/mailing list later' as DONE
<astraljava> No, we missed a few here in between.
 * scott-upstairs purposefully didn't put #.info in there
<astraljava> But we did have that one informal there.
<astraljava> Let's try to get back on track, though I acknowledge the holidays are looming.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, is this one 'formal' or 'informal', i don't remember the order at the moment?
<astraljava> This one is formal, as we're on this channel.
<astraljava> We're having the informals on our own.
<scott-upstairs> oh, yeah :P
<astraljava> Okay, any other Old Business?
<scott-upstairs> "holidays are looming", yes, even the -release team has canceled the two upcoming meetings as well
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, just a minute, let me think
<scott-upstairs> no, not that i can think of that isn't going to be in the blueprint discussion
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> #topic Blueprints situation
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Blueprints situation
<astraljava> As in agenda, the master blueprint can be found @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: You wanna lead this one?
<scott-upstairs> absolutely
<scott-upstairs> #topic new doc blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-doc-improvements
<scott-upstairs> we have completed this one as it stands
<scott-upstairs> there will be further documentation done this cycle and certainly more later (especially the help.ubuntu.com pages)
<scott-upstairs> #topic lowlatency blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-lowlatency
<scott-upstairs> this one is a little more interesting
<scott-upstairs> we have been working with steve (from the kernel team) on some preliminary testing for the lowlatency kernel vs generic
<scott-upstairs> objectively the results seem to support that the lowlatency kernel should perform perhaps an order of magnitude better than generic
<scott-upstairs> but this hasn't been quantified at this point
<scott-upstairs> i contacted steve about progressing getting the lowlatency kernel into the repos
<scott-upstairs> he responded that we didn't need to wait on him, he will continue to test however, but we can package and push to REVU
<scott-upstairs> after i get through the latest seeds updateing for theming i will work on this
<scott-upstairs> ..
<shnatsel> scott-upstairs: btw were my seed docs of any use?
<shnatsel> any help on seeds needed?
<shnatsel> oh, sorry to interrupt...
<scott-upstairs> shnatsel, i need to reread your doc again and i might need some help later
<scott-upstairs> and no problem :)
<scott-upstairs> #topic misc updates : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-misc-improvements
<scott-upstairs> we will be completing the multi-head testing and documentation (really it is basically done, just need some review in the wiki)
<scott-upstairs> we will be completing the xfce applications review as well when the seeds are updated
<scott-upstairs> but this will leave the default jack settings todo
<scott-upstairs> unfortunately i don't know the "proper" way to handle this since this will be putting things into the users /home directory
<astraljava> o/
<scott-upstairs> but i will have time to work through this after some other things are completed
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, ?
<astraljava> Maybe some postinst rules would help in that?
<astraljava> In any way, people over at -motu should be able to guide as there.
<astraljava> ..
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i thought i have been told that it was bad form to touch the user's directory
<scott-upstairs> i agree some help from -motu might be helpful
<scott-upstairs> #topic update website:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-update-website
<scott-upstairs> this is ongoing
<scott-upstairs> i've spent a fair amount of time getting content in there and trying to adjust the formatting to look nice
<scott-upstairs> although i haven't done anything this week, but plan to get back on it tonight
<scott-upstairs> i really hope that within one to two weeks i can put this behind me and we can make adjustments later
<scott-upstairs> one last outstanding issue is the social media inclusion, which i noted that stochastic made suggestions to include facebook, twitter, etc type social media
<scott-upstairs> i will confer with knome to see what is available
<scott-upstairs> we are still waiting for the RT ticket to pick up the website and put it into a staging site
<shnatsel> "unfortunately i don't know the "proper" way to handle this since this will be putting things into the users /home directory"
<shnatsel> I know
<shnatsel> I know the way
<scott-upstairs> oh yes?
<shnatsel> isn't it /etc/skel ?
<astraljava> Yes, but for existing users?
<shnatsel> I did that too
<shnatsel> if you need that
<shnatsel> and even debugged that
<shnatsel> and tested in a huge number of cases
<shnatsel> including no users (cd remaster), etc
<scott-upstairs> we can follow up with you, shnatsel, then for some advice later on
<astraljava> #action scott-upstairs to talk with shnatsel about config files in /home
<meetingology> ACTION: scott-upstairs to talk with shnatsel about config files in /home
<scott-upstairs> although we will need to figure out which package this will need to go into at some point
<scott-upstairs> can i move on to the next topic?
<astraljava> You can, or I can. Either way.
<scott-upstairs> #topic new theme/ui/etc blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-update-theme-ui
<astraljava> Are you done with the blueprints?
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry.
<scott-upstairs> this is what i'm currently working on today
<scott-upstairs> basically i will be moving to xubuntu's structure for -default-settings and -artwork
<scott-upstairs> this means we will remove some packages from the seeds (e.g. ubuntustudio-icon-theme and ubuntustudio-look) as these will be rolled into the -default-settings package
<scott-upstairs> i had considered parsing the xubuntu settings out into our current packages but decided against it
<scott-upstairs> aligning wiht the xubuntu structure will allow a smaller delta and hopefully keep maintenance and updating easier
<scott-upstairs> i've also email a few lists and individuals about new artwork per shnatsel's suggestion
<scott-upstairs> this would include new images for plymouth, lightdm, and wallpaper
<scott-upstairs> hopefully with a more unified and consistent "theme"
<scott-upstairs> i intend to push changes tonight and then ask for support to push to the repos
<scott-upstairs> but i do fully expect numerous updates to tweak things during the next weeks or months
<scott-upstairs> my goal is to have this done and resolved before alpha2
<scott-upstairs> #topic  live dvd blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-livedvd
<scott-upstairs> no movement really on this at this point
<scott-upstairs> part of this is really waiting for input from others on work flows
<scott-upstairs> although we may make some decision about general blocking of work flows
<scott-upstairs> for example, a video-home and video-pro work flow
<scott-upstairs> this would allow us to complete the metas for testing but not have the final packages in the meta
<scott-upstairs> i would like to target this after the theme/ui and website stuff is done and in time for alpha3
<scott-upstairs> ..
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i'm done
<astraljava> Okay, thanks.
<astraljava> #topic Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Bugs
<scott-upstairs> i should point out something
<scott-upstairs> sorry to interrupt after i said i was done
<astraljava> No worries.
<scott-upstairs> i'm carrying a lot of stuff right now and i worry that if i get busy with work again or family that this will greatly retard my schedule
<scott-upstairs> if anyone wants to pick up a specific topic and help that would awesomely and other superlatives great
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> I am willing to work on the docs, but have a little bit of trouble committing to any particular task at the moment due to personal issues.
<astraljava> But, such is life.
<shnatsel> I might take up something, but I'll be busy during the coming month for sure
<astraljava> ..
<shnatsel> university exams
<shnatsel> I just can't fail them
<astraljava> Okay, bugs. I went through an awful lot of them. There's a list of them on the agenda.
<astraljava> I'm not going to list them here.
<astraljava> Maybe only the ones regarding Precise?
<astraljava> Otherwise, I'd suggest everyone to go through them periodically, to shorten the list, and to gain some new respect for the project.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, great job on cleaning up the bugs btw
<astraljava> We've not been doing so great on them lately.
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: What do you say, Precise bugs? Should we go through them now?
<scott-upstairs> some i think will be "fixed" by some updates in the menu that have already happened and by some things that will still happen after the theme/ui update
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, sure, there isn't many are there?
<astraljava> No, there are not many.
<scott-upstairs> let's do it just to keep it in peoples minds
<astraljava> #info https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/840144
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 840144 in Ubuntu Studio "Use recommends instead of depends in seeds" [Medium,Confirmed]
<scott-upstairs> that will be fixed during the livedvd blueprint
<scott-upstairs> we will need to do this for the live dvd and was added by shnatsel just for this
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> Good. Is it linked in the blueprint? Blueprint seems to be in the bug.
<astraljava> ..
<scott-upstairs> how do you do the task?
<astraljava> I dunno. Want me to look into it?
<scott-upstairs> #task scottl to link bug#840144 to livedvd blueprint
<astraljava> I think you need #action for that.
<scott-upstairs> #action scottl to link bug#840144 to livedvd blueprint
<meetingology> ACTION: scottl to link bug#840144 to livedvd blueprint
<astraljava> There you go.
<scott-upstairs> hehe
<astraljava> #info https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/815101
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 815101 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] slowmovideo" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<shnatsel> they're linked
<scott-upstairs> i think this may be on a list that i speak with quadrispro and the debian multimedia team about packaging to get into ubuntu
<shnatsel> oh yeah, slowmovideo is great
<astraljava> Ok, so in progress then.
<astraljava> #action astraljava to update bug #815101 status
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to update bug #815101 status
<scott-upstairs> if it wasn't in shnatel's list, it is now (as i've written it down on my pad of paper)
<astraljava> #info https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/695892
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 695892 in Ubuntu Studio "no live CD for ubuntustudio" [Wishlist,New]
<astraljava> Well, this one is a no-brainer.
<scott-upstairs> hehe, i should add that one as well to the live dvd blueprint
 * scott-upstairs is doing it now and notes that bug #840144 is now attached as well
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 840144 in Ubuntu Studio "Use recommends instead of depends in seeds" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/840144
<astraljava> Need an action for that?
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, it's done now
<astraljava> No need, then.
<astraljava> Any other discussion relating bugs?
<scott-upstairs> :)
<scott-upstairs> none from me
<scott-upstairs> ..
<astraljava> ..
<astraljava> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<astraljava> None from me.
<scott-upstairs> i have something i'll mention
<scott-upstairs> i'm working on a long term plan for ubuntu studio
<scott-upstairs> i should be publishing something to the -devel mailing list within a month for review and comments
<scott-upstairs> i would GREATLY appreciate comments, even detractions and criticisms as well
<astraljava> Anything worth #info-ing now?
<scott-upstairs> not yet
<astraljava> ..
<scott-upstairs> but the main thrust is that the long plan is to make ubuntu studio really prevalent and not just with linux audio geeks ;)
<scott-upstairs> ..
<scott-upstairs> oh
<scott-upstairs> ah, nevermind
<astraljava> #topic Next Meeting Time/Location
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Next Meeting Time/Location
<astraljava> Next formal meeting, I doubt it.
<astraljava> That's Xmas Day. :)
<scott-upstairs> yeah, that's bad
<astraljava> #action Move next formal meeting up two weeks due to Holidays.
<meetingology> ACTION: Move next formal meeting up two weeks due to Holidays.
<astraljava> What about informal?
<scott-upstairs> i'll probably be around for a limited time for the informal one
<scott-upstairs> "probably"
<astraljava> Okay. We'll see how it goes.
<scott-upstairs> what about alternating times?
<scott-upstairs> did we every clear that up
<astraljava> #info Next informal meeting on #ubuntustudio-devel on 18th of Dec. at 1700 UTC.
<scott-upstairs> i'm not euro time zone so i don't know what other's needs are
<astraljava> Oh, I never got any feedback to my email on that.
<scott-upstairs> my feeling is that unless anyone suggests something then we keep proceeding as we have been
<astraljava> So we're sticking to what we have now, or decide later if need be.
<shnatsel> I'm fine with 17:00 UTC in my UTC+4, but who cares?
<scott-upstairs> but we can keep asking people about it though
<astraljava> Absolutely.
<astraljava> #topic Next Meeting Chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Studio contributors Meeting | Current topic:  Next Meeting Chair
<astraljava> Volunteers?
<shnatsel> we hold the meetings in elementary on saturdays 18:00 UTC ,seems to be fine
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i'd be happy to chair next meeting
<astraljava> #action scott-upstairs to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: scott-upstairs to chair next meeting
<astraljava> #endmeeting
<scott-upstairs> meeting is done?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Dec 11 17:57:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-11-17.14.moin.txt
<astraljava> Thanks all!
<scott-upstairs> haha, thanks astraljava and shnatsel!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-03
<tyhicks> Hello!
<jdstrand> hi!
<sarnold> hello :)
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  3 18:03:19 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> thanks to jbicha for his work on cups-pk-helper to fix bug #1083416. Help testing the package would be much appreciated-- if interested, please comment in the bug that the package in proposed works for you (Ubuntu 11-10 - 12.10)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1083416 in cups-pk-helper (Ubuntu Quantal) "cups-pk-helper security vulnerability CVE-2012-4510" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083416
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I worked quite a bit on secure boot last week. namely identifying test cases, documenting how to perform them and how to perform key database updates
<jdstrand> my secureboot-db package is basically done, but I have a couple more things to test there. I will be finishing that and forwarding all my work to various teams (eg, qa, foundations) so they can benefit as well
<jdstrand> in addition to that, I plan on working on MIR audits this week, then if I have time, picking up something from the list
<jdstrand> oh, and I'm in the happy place
<jdstrand> Marc is out today, but I know he is on triage and has a couple updates he is working on
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're next
<sbeattie> I'm again working on apparmor and display manager stuff this week
<sbeattie> still working on prototyping
<sbeattie> I also spent some of last week working a bit on tests, for upstream apparmor, apparmor in QRT, and the kernel in QRT
<sbeattie> I may do a bit more this week
<sbeattie> I also need to prep for the upstream apparmor monthly meeting this week.
<sbeattie> I may use up a day of holiday later this week, I need to sort out using up the rest of the time I have available this year.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: there was something last week about aptch review-- I didn't follow up on that-- how did that go?
<sbeattie> eh, I didn't get as far on that as I wanted; I should also look at that again as well.
<sbeattie> In particular, I want to understand and review where jjohansen is going with his parser patch set
<sbeattie> anyway, I think that's it for me. micahg?
<micahg> webkit and chromium still in progress, Firefox 17.0.1 just went out the door, I think that's it for now, tyhicks: tag
<tyhicks> I'll be working on the apparmor dbus mediation items
<tyhicks> I need to get a couple small updates in the dbus-dev ppa and then I'll look to jj for advice on what to tackle next
<tyhicks> that's it for me - jjohansen you're up
<jjohansen> well, I will push out apparmor 3 alpha 1 this week, and will continue on the labeling stacking patches
<jdstrand> oh, is it apparmor 3 and not apparmor 2.8?
<jjohansen> jdstrand: yeah it will be apparmor 3.0, 2.8 is currently what is in quantal/raring
<jdstrand> oh, duh
<jdstrand> are we planning a 2.8.1? /me wonders why he was thinking about 2.8...
<sbeattie> well, we hadn't decided on 2.9 vs 3.0
<jjohansen> of course its being deved as 2.8.99 or what ever because versioning issues between rpm and deb
<jdstrand> ok, sorry to de-rail
<jjohansen> sbeattie: err yeah we did, at the monthly meeting 2 months ago
<sbeattie> heh
<jjohansen> anyways we can always rehash in the apparmor meeting tomorrow :)
<jjohansen> I think that is it from /me sarnold your up
<sbeattie> no, no, let's not. :)
<jjohansen> :)
<sarnold> I finally published perl last week, so this week I picked up libxml2 and tiff
<sarnold> when working on tiff, I found some initial hurdles, my rebuilds weren't stripped and appeared to lack any ofthe hardening
<sarnold> sbeattie suggested I should do a test build of that package on the ppa and see what comes out; that makes enough sense :) but perhaps osmeone else will spot this one without burning 10*N(arch) minutes on the builders first....
<jdstrand> I'll help look at that
<sarnold> I'm also on community this week, I think it'd fun to do some d2u syncing or merging, I haven't done that yet.
<sarnold> I'm leaving to visit family in CA at the end of the week, friday will probably be a shorter day, I expect to make that up evenings this week
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, jdstrand ?
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xine-ui.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libguestfs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/policycoreutils.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pnp4nagios.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dtach.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> There are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  3 18:27:22 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-03-18.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-03-18.03.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<micahg> jdstrand: thanks
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<jdstrand> sure thing :)
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  3 19:01:31 2012 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<barry> hi everyone and welcome to this week's ubuntu developer membership board meeting
<barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<barry> could be a short meeting today, as we have no applications to process
<tumbleweed> \o/
 * barry does have a couple of items to discuss though
<barry> #topic previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: previous action items
<barry> micahg to document the zentyal packageset
<micahg> hrm...
 * stgraber waves
<micahg> barry: next time Gadget, next time
<barry> micahg: np :)
<barry> micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset
<barry> micahg: same?
<micahg> I thought I did that, but maybe I only thought about doing it
<micahg> so, yeas
<barry> cool, we'll carry it forward then :)
<barry> #topic package sets
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: package sets
<barry> nothing to do here i think
<barry> #topic applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: applications
<barry> nor here
<barry> #topic aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<barry> did everyone get a chance to see dholbach's message, re: @ubuntudev?  if so, any comments?
<tumbleweed> sure, welcoming new users sounds great. On tho other hand, we've already got too much post-meeting paperwork
<micahg> well, all of them except for g+ has an API I think
<barry> yeah, i don't think gwibber f.e. can do multiple accounts.  it would be easy if you could just post one message there and have it propagate
<barry> i suppose unless one of us really has the urge, we could leave it to the chair, or just let others in the community take the lead
<barry> i guess the silence pretty much says it all :)
<tumbleweed> automating the post-meeting papework would be pretty nice
<barry> one last thing i'd like to discuss: we have two more meetings technically scheduled for 2012, but i propose we cancel the 31-dec meeting, and i will offer to chair again in 2 weeks.  that will be the last meeting of 2012.  any objections?
<tumbleweed> cancelling the 31 dec meetnig seems pretty sensible
<micahg> sounds fine
<stgraber> sounds good
<barry> tumbleweed: what kind of automation do you have in mind?
<barry> cool, i'll update the next meeting page
<barry> if we skip the 31st, that puts the first meeting of 2013 on 7-jan at 1900utc
<tumbleweed> barry: well, I'm not sure it's worth the effort, as there's not much to do
<tumbleweed> but it still feels like a lot, so it's easy to put off
 * barry nods
<tumbleweed> welcoming people on social media accuonts is something that would have to be done ASAP, not left for two weeks
<barry> i guess we can be honest w/dholbach about our antisocial media-ness and see if he has suggestions for making it easy for us
<barry> well, anyway, that's all i have for today.  does anybody have anything else?
<tumbleweed> "antisocial media-ness" :)
<barry> alrighty then!
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  3 19:19:28 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-03-19.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-03-19.01.html
<barry> thanks folks
<stgraber> thanks!
 * bdrung arrives.
<barry> bdrung: perfect timing :)
<bdrung> barry: yes :) the DST makes it hard for me to be on time
<barry> bdrung: no worries, it was a boring meeting anyway :)
<bdrung> barry: i am just reading the logs
<bdrung> s/just/still/
<TheLordOfTime> who manages the fridge calendar?
<pleia2> TheLordOfTime: folks in #ubuntu-news
<TheLordOfTime> pleia2, thanks.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-04
 * bokjhv is away: /me requires JuanValdez. BRBack...
<jamespage> o/
<m_3> \o
<arosales> Hello :-)
<zul> hi hi hi hi hi hi
<m_3> zul: supposed to be "ho ho ho"
<smoser> o/
 * m_3 can't get holiday songs out of the head
<arosales> so we ready to get started :-)
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<zul> m_3:  uh uh...en francais "ho ho ho"
<jamespage> arosales, +1
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  4 16:04:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> hmm, where the action points updated from the previous meeting . . . ?
<arosales> Daviey to fix the release bugs report
<jamespage> thats the one
<arosales> everyone look through http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
 * jamespage proposes we scrap that report
<jamespage> its actually working aside from the fact it says 'Quantal'
<jamespage> but we are not using the subscribe ubuntu-server-release method any more
<arosales> hmm is the release team using that report still?
<jamespage> use this report instead: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<jamespage> arosales, thats not the report Daviey is mean't to be fixing
<jamespage> arosales, thats this one -http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> jamespage: to confirm what report were you suggesting to scrap?
<jamespage> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> and that was the one Daviey was going to review, correct?
<jamespage> he was going to fix yes
<arosales> #action move to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server for release bug tracking
<meetingology> ACTION: move to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server for release bug tracking
<zul> i like that one less nova/openstack bugs
<arosales> #action deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<meetingology> ACTION: deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> jamespage: is that the correct actions?
<Daviey> +1, i agree with that
<jamespage> +!
<jamespage> +1 even
<arosales> ok, got those logged as actoins
<arosales> *actions :-)
<arosales> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Alpha one coming up
<arosales> Daviey: do we need to notify the release team of server participating in A1, or is that just for flavors?
<jamespage> which server is not opting in to right?
<arosales> December 6th
<arosales> Alpha 1 (for opt-in flavors)
<arosales> sounds like we need to opt in too then .. .
<arosales> jamespage: to confirm server is _not_ going to opt into A1, correct?
<jamespage> correct AFAIK
<arosales> any other comments on A1?
<smoser> i dont think we've had this discussion. i dont see a strong reason for a fire drill.
<jamespage> +1
<smoser> but my general feeling is that milestones are useful targets. but not if they're 2 days from now.
<arosales> thats reasonable
<arosales> smoser: so we should plan on A2 then?
<arosales> February 7th
<arosales> Alpha 2 (for opt-in flavors)
<smoser> i would say we should definitely opt in to a feb 7 date.
<arosales> utlemming: not cloud images will also not opt in for A1, but lets plan on A2 to be in-line with server
<arosales> s/not/note/
<jamespage> sounds sane to me
<arosales> onto bugs
<smoser> worthy note, next set of cloud images should reliably boot. thakns to mountall fix.
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> smoser, \o/
<utlemming> arosales: ack
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#serverÂ 
<arosales> since we are deprecating http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<arosales> #action arosales update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands with new release bug link of Â http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#serverÂ 
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands with new release bug link of Â http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#serverÂ 
<arosales> jamespage: smoser: should we at least step through the critical and maybe high bugs?
<arosales> bug http://launchpad.net/bugs/1081212
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081212 in maas (Ubuntu Quantal) "The address of the API in pserv.conf (tftp/generator) is http://localhost/MAAS/api/1.0/pxeconfig/" [Critical,Triaged]
<arosales> looks to be fixed in trunk and 1.2 mass, but uncertain of Ubuntu
<arosales> Daviey: ^
<smoser> arosales, i'd say that the maas bugs are probalby not worth going through here.
<jamespage> arosales, I'd ask roaksoax for general comment on the maas bugs; most of then are in hand upstream
<jamespage> and will land in the stablization release
<arosales> #action roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream
<meetingology> ACTION: roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream
<arosales> 1064224 is maas
<Daviey> arosales: hola
<arosales> 1069734 is maas
<arosales> sorry /me just noticed the package column . .
<arosales> so all these bugs are mass on the server list except http://launchpad.net/bugs/671065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671065 in dovecot (Ubuntu) "deliver broken because dovecot.conf uses !include_try" [Medium,In progress]
<arosales> and http://launchpad.net/bugs/1066845
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066845 in nova (Ubuntu Raring) "nova-novncproxy is not running; Suggest: novnc should be Depends" [Low,Triaged]
<arosales> 671065 looks like it wasn't going to be fixed in Quantal, any ideas on Raring?
<arosales> jamespage: It looks like you commented on it being to late for Quantal and bumping to Raring
<jamespage> arosales, I'll take it
<arosales> ivoks was also working on it.
<arosales> zul any comments on 1066845
<arosales> low priority . .  .
<zul> arosales: should already be fixed in raring
<arosales> zul: could you please update the bug with that info?
<zul> yep
<arosales> thanks
<arosales> thats it for bugs.
<arosales> unless anyone has any others.
<arosales> ok moving on
<arosales> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ubuntu-server.html
 * arosales noticed http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ wasn't picking up the servercloud area
<arosales> #action arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up servercloud area
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up servercloud area
<arosales> the "todos" are currently staying below the trend line, which is nice
<arosales> actually the topics at http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ubuntu-server.html don't look correct
<arosales> hmm status tracker doesn't look to be in a healthy state, I don't think we can trust the info atm.
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server?searchtext=servercloud+r
<arosales> sorry
<arosales> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server?searchtext=servercloud+r
<arosales> and possibly https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+upcomingwork
<arosales> if the BPs are targetted correctly ;-)
<arosales> assuming the BPs are targetted correctly
<arosales> WI due for A1 (dec 6) look to be done
<arosales> as there are none ;-)
<arosales> juju-core as some upcoming for dec 13
<arosales> any BPs folks want to bring up here?
<arosales> btw: smoser, jamespage: Daviey: are you guys targetting BPs?
<jamespage> arosales, yes
<jamespage> but they need to be reviewed as the month ones did not exists when we did it first time
<arosales> cool, so perhaps https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+upcomingwork may be a good review of upcoming work that needs addressed . ..
<arosales> thoughts?
<jamespage> Daviey, smoser: we need to review/approve the final few for the release and then retarget
<smoser> yeah.
<arosales> who would like the action there?
<smoser> me is fine
<jamespage> yes please
<arosales> #action jamespage, smoser: we need to review/approve the final few BPs for the release and then retarget
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage, smoser: we need to review/approve the final few BPs for the release and then retarget
<arosales> ok, any BPs folks would like to bring up?
<arosales> #action jamespage, arosales confirm if https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+upcomingwork should be used in ubuntu-server team IRC meeting for BP status
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage, arosales confirm if https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+upcomingwork should be used in ubuntu-server team IRC meeting for BP status
<arosales> moving to next topic
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jimbaker> scalex cfp deadline is next monday (dec 10)
<arosales> negronjl: will be at Lisa Dec 9-14 doing a BOF (http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa12/cfp/)
<m_3> ah, thanks for the reminder jim
<arosales> m_3: and jcastro at scale it looks like from https://juju.ubuntu.com/Events/
<arosales> any other events for server?
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> hi
<hggdh> no real news, except that I want to look at the ec2 test automation to drive kernel tests. Will chat with jamespage later on
<hggdh> ..
<arosales> hggdh: is that via UTAH?
<hggdh> arosales: no, it is outside UTAH
<hggdh> arosales: move to UTAH will depend on the kernel team
<arosales> hggdh: is cloud deployments on UTAH's road map?
<hggdh> arosales: it is beneath the horizon right now, but it has been considered
<arosales> hggdh: ok, thanks for the update. We'll also ask smb about kernel and utah in the next topic :-)
<arosales> any questions/comments for hggdh?
<hggdh> heh
<arosales> thanks hggdh for the update
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Hello. I wanted to bring up two things. First to clarify the slight confusion I was causing last time with respect to rolling kernel. So the ISOs for 12.04.2 will have the quantal kernel and quantal x stack but that is under the name of enablement stack, not the rolling kernel as I incorrectly brought up.
<smb> The plan with rolling kernel updates really has been put back.
<hggdh> smb: so default kernel keeps the same, correct?
<smb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/QuantalLTSEnablementStack  (#9)
<arosales> smb: so folks can keep on the precise kernel, and still get updates
<smb> If they use the 12.04 or 12.04.1 cds for install and upgrade yes
<smb> When using the 12.04.2 cds they get the newer kernel
<arosales> smb: great, thanks for the clarification
 * hggdh is quite confused now
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/QuantalLTSEnablementStack
<smb> Ok, the second thin, I am not sure it was already discussed
<smb> (brain unfortunately has multitasking issues)
<smb> So right now Xen-4.2 is in raring-proposed
<smb> This causes xen-api (xcp-xapi) to have issues because the xl api is incompatible
<smb> And this is probably also keeping nova back in proposed
<smb> AFAIK this is known to the xcp guys but until resolved everything is kept back in proposed
<smb> ..
<arosales> hggdh: any clearer now?
<hggdh> aye
<arosales> I think the important piece for server is point 9 in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/QuantalLTSEnablementStack
<hggdh> but I do not see much difference from before -- new installs get the new kernel, updates from 12.04/12.04.1 get the old
<arosales> in that folks can continue to use the precise kernel and get updates
<smb> I think the big difference is what and how things get enforced. The rolling kernel plan would have moved people automatically
<arosales> I think the main point is an LTS getting non-LTS stack option (ie rolling)
<hggdh> yes, and the need to support both on all
<arosales> smb: ya forcing folks to upgrade their LTS kernel would have been a bit scary, thanks for keeping the option to stay on the precise kernel.
<arosales> smb: hggdh had a question regarding UTAH and kernel testing
<smb> yep
<arosales> smb: is kernel team going to be using UTAH in their testing?  (perhaps smb can provide some more context)
<arosales> sorry perhaps hggdh can provide more context :-)
<smb> arosales, I can forward that question to the people doing it
<smb> :)
<arosales> smb: ok thanks
<arosales> any other questions for smb?
<hggdh> I do not think the kernel team is looking at porting to UTAH right now
<arosales> smb: thanks for the update
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> The highbank installer is broken in quantal and we should have a fix shortly (bug 1084106). Nothing else to report. Any questions for me?
<arosales> rbasak: any news on the ARM front ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084106 in The Eilt project "highbank installer broken" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084106
<arosales> I'll take it no further questions for rbasak.
<arosales> rbasak: thanks for the update.
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<arosales> any topics folks would like to discuss
<arosales> going 1 . .
<arosales> 2 . .  .
<arosales> 3. . .
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<TheLordOfTime> guess not :P
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> next meeting is: Tuesday 2012-12-11 at 1600 UTC
<arosales> thanks for joining, and your time
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  4 16:50:44 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-04-16.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-04-16.04.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  4 17:00:33 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<sforshee> o/
<sconklin> o/
<henrix> o/
<cking> o/
<herton> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> jsalisbury: meep, 2secs
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 12 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                ||  3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || foundations-r-secure-boot             ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-r-kernel-delta-review        ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || foundations-r-secure-boot             ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the raring kernel to upstream v3.7-rc8.  We
<ogasawara> plan to upload today.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Tues Dec 18 - 13.04 Month 2 Milestone - (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<henrix> Currently we have 29 CVEs on our radar, with 1 CVE added and 0 CVEs retired this week.
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (December 04):
<henrix>  * Hardy - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; (1 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (78 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (87 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Preparation; 1 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (308 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  4 17:05:34 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-04-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-04-17.00.html
<shPikachu> hi ppl
<shPikachu> im trying to connect 7 FTDI rs232- usb adapters to my pc using a hub
<shPikachu> each has a data stream
<shPikachu> when i plug the 7th while the others 6 are plugged in, it doesnt xmit or receives
<pleia2> shPikachu: this channel is for team meetings, you want #ubuntu for support
<shPikachu> however, when i plug it alone, it works
<shPikachu> ok thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-05
<Destine> hi
<stokachu> o/
 * stgraber waves
<ogra_> moo
<jodh> hullo!
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec  5 16:01:43 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<slangasek> yay, habemus botem
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> ogra stokachu jodh ev slangasek doko cjwatson xnox bdmurray stgraber barry
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * flash-kernel fixes and SRUs (pending an upload to quantal)
<ogra_>  * fix various image bits of nexus7
<ogra_>  * work out a "serial console by default" setup for nexus7 (just attach the USB cable and use screen/minicom from your desktop from tomorrow on, no more openssh server needed for debug shells)
<ogra_>  * finally got nux into the archive with all armhf fixes for nexus7, tomorrows image should be fully usable
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * meeting for discussing the remaining WIs of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-reduced-power-ram (carried over again)
<ogra_>  * book vacation for the rest of december
<ogra_> ..
<cjwatson> (is the nominative bots, botis, or botes?)
<stokachu> bug 1084863 - needs nomination approval
<stokachu> bug 1012900, bug 1004775 - working with assigned engineers to get these uploaded for precise
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1084863 in parallel (Ubuntu) "Please upgrade to latest parallel-20121122" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084863
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1012900 in sssd (Ubuntu Precise) "Using SSSD, PAM error when exiting su session" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1012900
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1004775 in network-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "NetworkManager restarts dnsmasq and adds host route on every IPv6 route lookup" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1004775
<stokachu> (done)
<jodh> * bug 1083723: reworked and re-raised MP (awaiting feedback).
<jodh> * bug 1079715: reworked and re-raised MP (awaiting feedback).
<jodh> * bug 1086474: continued investigations.
<jodh> * reviewed lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-dbus-events
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1083723 in upstart "'telinit u' has a cage fight with busybox init" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083723
<jodh> * reviewed lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-initgroups and merged.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1079715 in upstart "'telinit u' run from within a chroot causes a crash" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1079715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1086474 in upstart "test_job_process can fail in test 'with environment of unnamed instance'" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086474
<jodh> * reviewed lp:~xnox/upstart/fix-qemu-test and merged.
<jodh> * reviewed lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-prctl.
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - merge lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-prctl.
<jodh>   - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions
<jodh>     - upates for PAM.
<cjwatson> stokachu: if bug 1084863 is for -updates rather than -backports, shouldn't we be identifying the relevant patches rather than doing a wholesale backport?
<jodh>     - updates for confdir/override handling.
<jodh> ð
 * xnox ev promises a double long post next week.
<stokachu> cjwatson: parallel would be a full  backporrt for precise
<cjwatson> stokachu: that's contrary to the usual SRU practice, so it would need special justification
<stokachu> cjwatson: but quantal we would need to specify the patches, so we can remove that nomination
<stokachu> and raring is just a blanket upgrade
<cjwatson> oh, parallel isn't in precise at all?  then we'd need to have a reason it's needed
<cjwatson> wait.  is the intended state precise-backports + quantal-updates + raring?
<stokachu> cjwatson: yea :D
<cjwatson> in that case, we don't want the precise task - that'll be handled by the backport
<stokachu> ah ok
<cjwatson> we do want the quantal and raring tasks, but for quantal it will need to be a targeted patch exercise
<stokachu> cjwatson: gotcha so we should remove nominations and I can create a separate bug for quantal?
<stokachu> for specific fixes
<cjwatson> No, leave it as it is now
<xnox> stokachu: status fixed, refresh.
<stokachu> cool thanks :D
<slangasek> cjwatson: no reason a third-declension noun can't have "bot" as its nominative :)
<xnox> stokachu: we can split later if we decide so, cause e.g. it will need backports & sru templates on it.
<slangasek> no ev today due to crashdb sprinting
<slangasek> mine is:
<slangasek>  * working with desktop team on X stack backports for 12.04.2
<slangasek>  * upstart branch reviews
<slangasek>  * further work to get upstart 1.6 ready to go into Debian testing
<slangasek>  * fixing a regression in mountall discovered in the cloud only after SRU (bug #1078926)
<stokachu> xnox: sounds good thanks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078926 in mountall (Ubuntu Quantal) "raring instance failed to find EC2 datasource" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078926
<slangasek>  * looked at plymouth in lxc
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> slangasek: touchÃ©
<doko> * last week
<doko> - more toolchain work, upstreaming 4.8 patches, fixing issues in the 4.8 packaging
<doko> - gcc-4.7, binutils updates for raring.
<doko> - review linaro arm-none-gnueabi packaging
<doko> * this week
<doko> - finish python3.3 multiarch packaging
<doko> - move the python3.3 multiarch packaging to 2.7, and clean up things
<doko> - prepare python-defaults and python3-defaults multiarch changes
<doko> - start documenting python multiarch
<doko> - look at the cross packaging, removing the ad-hoc solutions, and configure --with-sysroot=/
<doko> - finally investigating how to build multilib'd cross toolchains
<doko> - llvm-3.2 update, look at clang 3.2
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> --with-sysroot=/ \o/
<slangasek> cjwatson: I guess you'll be exercising that toolchain soon, to confirm it really works without extra flags?
<cjwatson> So that's what fixes the -rpath-link stuff?
<slangasek> AIUI yes
<slangasek> the binutils upload specifically
<doko> it should, yes. binutils is already in the archive
<cjwatson> I can clear out w-b and have it retry from scratch
<doko> and the armhf cross binutils too
<cjwatson> How about the "STRIP CFLAGS -fstack-protector" that we're still carrying?
<cjwatson> Ah, that was just for arm64 because it didn't have a libssp
<slangasek> that's aarch64-specific
<doko> not yet ported to arm64
<slangasek> cjwatson: your go, I think
<cjwatson> OK, I'll go through my sbuild charm and conditionalise the bits that are quantal and/or arm64 only
<cjwatson> Lots of merges.
<cjwatson> Continuing to push SB up the hill in 12.04.  Now boots, according to stgraber, but fails to install correctly.
<cjwatson> Many cross-build fixes, and adding M-A: foreign to things.  gettext unblocked.  Auto-cross-builder now publishing: http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/cross/armhf/raring/
<cjwatson> Fixed arcane coreutils/powerpc build failure.
<cjwatson> Fixed net-tools build failure.
<cjwatson> Fixed ubiquity not to remove kernel headers just because it's removing a same-flavour signed kernel (bug 1070427).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070427 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "Ubiquity removes kernel headers, fails to build nonfree drivers" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070427
<cjwatson> Multiarchified libplymouth{2,-dev}.
<cjwatson> Fixed up build-essential to stop claiming that python-minimal is Essential.
<cjwatson> Fixed ubiquity regression in question dialog handling that broke auto-resizing (bug 1085961).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1085961 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Unable to install two raring desktops side-by-side" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1085961
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> There's a question in that last-but-one bug about publishing updated 12.10 images ...
<xnox> * Fixed upstart race in the unit-test, now we pass adt tests in with
<xnox>   lp:upstart.
<xnox> * Working on upstart user configuration directories.
<xnox> * Joined co-working from the office with evan, brian and pitti.
<xnox> * Guiding upgrade user experience work for raring.
<cjwatson> Which, well.  It's possible but some work
<xnox> ..
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Did a few more changes on the initgroups branch, was merged today.
<stgraber>   - Cleaned up and ported initctl2dot to python3
<stgraber>   - Some cleanup work on the upstart-dconf-bridge at: lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-dconf-bridge
<stgraber>   - Started poking at libnih to fix the 'as' type handling for the dbus-events branch
<stgraber>   - Cleaned up the prctl branch a little based on James' comment, now proposed for merging.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Getting ready for 0.9~alpha1 release next week.
<stgraber>   - Quite a lot of code review for patches being sent upstream.
<stgraber>   - Extended lxc-device to support moving network devices to containers.
<stgraber>   - Made python optional upstream, falling back to "legacy" shell scripts when not available.
<stgraber>   - Improved some of the existing python scripts to better deal with a non-root user.
<stgraber>   - lxc-create now stores the name of the template, arguments and sha1sum in the container's configuration.
<stgraber>   - lxc-ubuntu now installs any needed language pack in the container based on the list of langpacks installed on the host.
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - Taking care of the alpha-1 release for the few participating flavours.
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Looking at reducing the delta between Debian and Ubuntu for bridge-utils. Will add some code to detect upstart-udev-bridge and change the codepath accordingly.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Did some UEFI secureboot testing for Colin.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Release alpha-1.
<stgraber>   - Work on libnih and get the dbus-events upstart branch to work.
<stgraber>   - Prepare the pull request for the 0.9~alpha1 LXC release.
<stgraber>   - Prepare a patch for bridge-utils to detect upstart and send that to Debian.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> last week: bug #1077076 (oneconf py3 & oauthlib). bug #1058029 (code review). bug #1061149 (probably not a kernel bug, maybe jodh can take a look?). pykde4 plugin port to py3. review apport-valgrind for kylen. tox 1.4.2-2. virtualenv 1.8.4. python-defaults 2.7.3-3ubuntu2. this week: finish up (i hope) oneconf; look at twisted py3 port and our dependencies; continue eradication of python-oauth on ubuntu-desktop.  ð¢
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077076 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077076
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1058029 in upstart (Ubuntu) "Port initctl2dot to Python 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1058029
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1061149 in linux (Ubuntu) "boot occasionally hangs while "Checking battery state..."" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061149
<slangasek> cjwatson: updated 12.10 images> right, it's possible but I don't think it's realistic that we'll have the cycles to spend on this
<cjwatson> yeah :-/
<cjwatson> I guess I could publish an SRU and switch on the offer-people-an-installer-upgrade bit
<slangasek> cjwatson: that seems a reasonable middle ground
<slangasek> any questions wrt statuses?
<slangasek> (speaking of bad latin declinations)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray isn't here to drive this, so I suppose it'll be a quick topic
<slangasek> anyone want to raise anything here?
<barry> bug #1061149 is still confounding me
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1061149 in linux (Ubuntu) "boot occasionally hangs while "Checking battery state..."" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061149
<stokachu> one sec
<barry> we now think it is not a kernel problem.  perhaps upstart?  any suggestions for more things to test would be welcome
<stokachu> can i bring up another backport bug thats been sitting around for several months?
<jodh> barry: unlikely to be a bug in upstart itself. The acpi service is in the sysv side of the world, but it might be an odd interaction between sysv+upstart jobs possibly.
<slangasek> I don't think it's likely to have anything to do with sysv+upstart
<xnox> stokachu: go ahead.
<stokachu> bug 943502
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 943502 in whois (Ubuntu Oneiric) "whois doesn't properly query .hr/.sx/.pe TLDs and incorrect format for whois.arin.net" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/943502
<jodh> barry: when you say the boot hangs - do you mean the machine is actually dead? magic sysrq any help?
<slangasek> it's more likely that something has stalled and preventing the boot from getting any further due to a missing event of some kind
<slangasek> barry: boot with --verbose and capture the last bits on the screen?
<barry> jodh: ctrl-alt-del kills acpid and reboots it
<jodh> barry: serial console output ideally.
<infinity> stokachu: Why backport wholesale instead of SRUing the correct TLD info in?
<stokachu> arges: ^
<slangasek> barry: also, a listing of /etc/rc2.d/ on the affected machine
<barry> the console output is somewhat unpredictable, but after the boot stalls, ctrl-alt-del *always* shows acpid getting killed
<jodh> barry: what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key ?
<barry> i'd say the boot stalls roughly 50% of the time (but not exactly 50%)
<slangasek> stokachu: no arges on this channel.  anyway, though infinity phrased it as a question, you will have better results by applying targeted fixes instead of doing a backport
<slangasek> first, because the backport team is orthogonal to the normal sponsorship queue / SRU process
<jodh> barry: but is the machine dead? does the caps lock light still respond? is the VM process maxed at 100% cpu?
<barry> jodh: that might be tricky.  this is a vm ;)
<slangasek> second, because backports aren't enabled for users by default
<barry> slangasek: i'll past the ls into the issue
<slangasek> barry: ta
<stokachu> slangasek: ok let me talk to the OP and see wth is going on
<slangasek> stokachu: ok, sounds good
<barry> jodh: the machine isn't actually dead. iirc i can ssh into it
<jodh> barry: it's possible to sysrq with kvm+virtualbox.
<jodh> barry: ok.
<slangasek> barry: chvt 2?  (this rules out a console hang, vs. things just not having been handed off to the 'tty1' service)
<stokachu>  slangasek, infinity: we are going to go over the bug again and see about taking a better approach
<stokachu> bug is pretty old and the history is lost on it
<slangasek> barry: also, if you can ssh in, you can get a process list and an upstart job list; we would want to see the state of the 'rc' and 'plymouth' jobs when the hang happens
<slangasek> stokachu: ack
<slangasek> any other bugs?
<jodh> right. remove splash and quiet on kernel cmdline too.
<slangasek> not at the same time as doing the other tests :)
<barry> slangasek: yep.  jodh already splashless and chatty :)
<slangasek> removing 'splash' is a big hammer
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> so it's almost certainly not a plymouth console-related hang
<barry> slangasek, jodh perhaps... let me get it into the stalled state and we can poke at it in real time?
<barry> (after this meeting or later today?)
<slangasek> barry: can do
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<jodh> barry: k
<slangasek> anything else?
<ogra_> infinity, do you plan to re-introduce weekly reports to ubuntu-release before end of the year ?
<ogra_> (if so i need to find someone stepping in for me during vacation)
<infinity> ogra_: Yes.  I was meta-nagged to nag people.
<slangasek> :-)
 * ogra_ hasnt recieved a nag yet
<infinity> ogra_: I'll be nagging today. :P
<ogra_> i was actually expecting it :)
<ogra_> (thats why i asked)
<slangasek> infinity: is the nag covering all the changes to the requested report format?
<slangasek> like, axing the "bugs currently worked on" thing
<infinity> slangasek: I have to go back and poke the spec, but yes.
<ogra_> ++
<slangasek> infinity: great :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Dec  5 16:37:34 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-05-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-05-16.01.html
<slangasek> the end!
<xnox> thanks.
<slangasek> thanks all
<barry> thanks!
<ogra_> thanks !
<stgraber> thanks!
 * solarcloud is away: /me requires JuanValdez. BRBack...
 * solarcloud is back (gone 00:07:02)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-06
<dholbach> hello hello
<czajkowski> aloha
<cprofitt> hello
<Gwaihir> o/
<dholbach> Do we have people from Edubuntu and Lubuntu here?
<gilir> dholbach, I'm here for Lubuntu :-)
<YokoZar> Howdy folks
<dholbach> hey gilir!
<pleia2> o/
<dholbach> maybe we'll start with Lubuntu then and try to round up Edubuntu folks in the meantime :)
<cprofitt> hello gilir thanks for coming
<dholbach> #startmeeting Community Council meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  6 17:02:39 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Lubuntu team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Catching up with the Lubuntu team
<dholbach> gilir, how are you doing? did you bring anyone else from the team? :)
<gilir> hi :-)
<gilir> hum, no I forget to advertise this meeting, sorry :-(
<dholbach> don't worry - next time then :)
<gilir> since it's my first meeting of this type, sorry if I mess it :-)
<dholbach> did you get much feedback on the Lubuntu 12.10 release?
<dholbach> How many releases of Lubuntu did we have already?
<gilir> yes, mostly positive feedback ofr 12.10
<gilir> first "official" release should be 11.10
<dholbach> wow, so 3 releases already
<gilir> so it's the 3rd I think
<dholbach> very nice
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> are there many distros in general which are based on lxde?
<gilir> but I consider the 10.04 as the real first release :-)
<dholbach> Why would you say so? Was 10.04 where all the lxde packages went into Ubuntu? :)
<gilir> not many, but some use lxde and /or Openbox as a based
<gilir> I think it's as popular as xfce for "derivative" distribution
<dholbach> wow, that's a great achievement
<gilir> in 10.04 we had most of the packages in Ubuntu, but not the ISO build official on Ubuntu architecture
<dholbach> ah ok
<gilir> that's why it's not "official" :-)
<pleia2> just installed lubuntu on a ppc mac last night, much appreciated that you guys are keeping that going :)
<dholbach> Do you get support from Upstream? Do they help you with issues and everything?
<gilir> 11.10 is the first with all packages in, and ISO build "normally" :-)
<YokoZar> I have noticed a rise on Lubuntu as an advocated alternative
<gilir> pleia2, we have a lot of tester on PPC, which make it possible, so thanks to them :-)
<gilir> dholbach, upstream help yes, but there are not very active on all lxde components
<dholbach> So it's just the popular components which receive updates?
<gilir> YokoZar, we try to be as light as possible, it's a good argument to test / install it :-)
<gilir> dholbach, yes, and the ones where a dev is active
 * dholbach nods
<czajkowski> gilir: what is the biggest obstacle for you guys ?
<gilir> lxde is a different desktop environnement, all components are independants :-)
<gilir> so you can have some components well maintained, and some less
<gilir> czajkowski, mostly, time :-)
<dholbach> gilir, so you feel you have enough contributors in all the areas of Lubuntu?
<YokoZar> Are any of our components with rather large upstream deltas (this is the case for a lot of Gnome, for instance)
<gilir> czajkowski, maybe more devs (as everybody :-)), but we need to clean up our documentation first :-/
<gilir> dholbach, some areas, we are good (artwork, testing for example)
<czajkowski> gilir: is there any way we the community council can help you?
<gilir> czajkowski, I'm afraid not really :-(
<czajkowski> gilir: well know our door is always open if you do need help or advice.
<gilir> czajkowski, well, I can't think of a way you could help on the short term, since we have work to do on our side
<dholbach> gilir, I do regular Ubuntu Development Hangouts - maybe it'd make sense to invite you guys where you can talk a bit about what your team is doing and maybe that'd interest a few people to help out
<gilir> czajkowski, thanks :-)
<gilir> dholbach, yes, I just want to clean up our documentation and stuff before, so it will be easier for new contributors
<cprofitt> gilir: do you need help with documentation? would external assistance help?
<dholbach> gilir, perfect - I'll send you a mail and we can try to find a date in the new year maybe
<gilir> cprofitt, no, it's very specific sections (lxde ...) that need clean up
<gilir> dholbach, ok, it will force me to work on it :-)
 * cprofitt nods
<dholbach> gilir, sent the mail
<dholbach> gilir, are you doing fine on the bug front?
<gilir> dholbach, some triage + SRU needs to be done, but nothing critical I'm aware
<dholbach> ok :)
<dholbach> so generally you seem to be doing quite fine - that's great
<dholbach> do you have many work items and plans for 13.04?
<gilir> we are trying :-)
<gilir> the work items are limited for 13.04
<gilir> but it's on purpose, since last cycle many items was postponed because we didn't have time to do them
<czajkowski> that makes good planning sense
<pleia2> understandable
<dholbach> anything specific you and the team is going to be working on?
<gilir> dholbach, mostly, some old items, old bugs / features requests
<dholbach> ok
<gilir> also working on a specific session of Nexus7, but as a low priority :-)
<gilir> s/of/for
<dholbach> are you in touch with the people in #ubuntu-arm?
<gilir> and because we need to work on fun stuff :-)
<dholbach> I mean... do you get enough support there?
<gilir> not a lot, because we still need to fix some stuff on the LXDE side
<dholbach> ah ok
<gilir> I also wait for nexus7 stuff to hit official repo
<dholbach> ok - if you let me know what's stuck, I can try to find the right person for it
<gilir> dholbach, ok, thanks :-)
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> I don't think I have any more questions - I'll be in touch about the hangout and maybe from there we can think about another plan to get more people involved :)
<czajkowski> gilir: thanks for coming
<pleia2> thanks gilir :)
<gilir> ok, thanks for your time :-)
<cprofitt> thanks gilir
<dholbach> rock on gilir :)
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Edubuntu team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Catching up with the Edubuntu team
 * stgraber waves
<YokoZar> Thank you :)
<pleia2> hey stgraber!
<dholbach> hey stgraber! :)
<czajkowski> slangasek: howdy
<czajkowski> bah
<czajkowski> stgraber: aloha
<dholbach> how's life in Edubuntu land? How was the response to 12.10?
<czajkowski> tab completion will land me in trouble one of these days!
<slangasek> oh
 * slangasek feels less special now
<slangasek> ;)
<stgraber> well, 12.10 wasn't a great release for us, didn't bring much new things and broke ltsp for most users
<stgraber> so our standing recommendation is to stick to LTS
<dholbach> what broke in ltsp?
<YokoZar> Was this an inherited breakage due to underlying parts changing?
<stgraber> sorry, wifi disconnect :)
<stgraber> unity 3d doesn't work with ltsp
<stgraber> it requires over 100mbit of bandwidth just to render the UI
<pleia2> wow
<stgraber> so we ask people to stick to unity-2d on 12.04
<dholbach> And how's the Edubuntu community doing in general?
<dholbach> Do you get enough support?
<dholbach> I seem to remember from last meeting that a lot of teachers were involved.
<stgraber> we have quite a lot of users but our users aren't usually technical enough to help us implement things
<YokoZar> Which would not be surprising ;)
<stgraber> but that's not a big problem for us as we only have a fairly limited set of packages to care about
<dholbach> Right, that makes sense. So in general there's not any area where you'd need some more help?
<stgraber> and we plan our new features enough in advance that we can implement pretty much everything we plan with only 2-3 developers
<stgraber> we'll probably need some help with edubuntu server, mostly for the web UI at some point, that seems like the kind of thing we could fairly easily find interested contributors for
<dholbach> maybe I should make the same offer and try to invite you to an ubuntu development hangout? maybe there you could get some interest :)
<stgraber> sure, maybe we can get some more feedback on our vision for 14.04 that way and get some new contributors
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> I'll send you an email too
<dholbach> Edubuntu has a council - I was wondering if there were any "council activities" in the last cycle. I mean, stuff apart from working on Edubuntu as a team member. :)
<stgraber> we had a few discussions for hardware/service sponsorship, but that was mostly it
<stgraber> the rest of the council activities is voting on new members but we haven't had an application in over a year :)
<czajkowski> stgraber: how does one become a council member ?
<dholbach> maybe it'd be time to remind people on your mailing lists about the general possibility :)
<czajkowski> thanks for creating a council address btw, much easier to contact one address.
<stgraber> czajkowski: we had that address for years, we just don't like people using it so it wasn't on the wiki
<stgraber> czajkowski: IIRC any ubuntu member can be nominated to be on the EC, then ~edubuntu-members vote
<stgraber> hey highvoltage
<highvoltage> yep
<dholbach> hi highvoltage
<highvoltage> hello
<dholbach> anything else you feel the CC could generally help with?
<highvoltage> dholbach: not that comes to mind right now
<highvoltage> (sorry my IRC session kind of died so I missed a lot of this as well)
<dholbach> or anything which is blocking you apart from the ltsp-3d-graphics situation?
<highvoltage> well,
<highvoltage> we still have the usual we need more contributors but don't always even have the time to do something about that
<dholbach> ok
<highvoltage> (I needed some dashes there)
<highvoltage> dholbach: but I think continuous time and effort will improve that over time
<dholbach> highvoltage, I earlier tried to talk to stgraber into joining an ubuntu developer hangout - maybe that'd get some folks interested in contributing :)
<highvoltage> dholbach: I've been meaning to attend all of them, I just happened to have a clash at every one so far
<dholbach> we can pick another time to make it more suitable for you
<dholbach> we'll figure something out
<highvoltage> *nod*
<dholbach> maybe early next year
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> I'm done with questions
<YokoZar> When highvoltage drafts me into edubuntu :)
<dholbach> anyone else still has something?
<czajkowski> nope all good
<beuno> not from me
<czajkowski> thanks for coming it;s nice to have these catch ups
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> thanks a lot stgraber and highvoltage!
<YokoZar> Yeah it really is, thank you
<stgraber> np
<highvoltage> YokoZar: hey I really tried hard at UDS!
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any other business?
<dholbach> There's nothing on the wiki agenda.
<dholbach> And the only thing I can see on our Trello board is the Forums upgrade. Does anyone know how the testing is going?
<czajkowski> we got an update on the RT for a schedule for friday for stuff to happen
<czajkowski> no more updates since then
<dholbach> aha
<dholbach> I keenly await Friday then! :)
<cprofitt> dholbach: there is a notice on the forums -- so it looks to be ongoing
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> Does anyone have anything else to discuss with the CC?
<dholbach> Looks like we're all good.
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  6 17:51:40 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-06-17.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-06-17.02.html
<czajkowski> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> thank YOU all :)
<cjohnston> !ping rmb
<danielmato> Good night
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<cjohnston> #startmeeting Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  6 22:01:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjohnston. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<cjohnston> #chair cjohnston
<meetingology> Current chairs: cjohnston
<cjohnston> #voters cjohnston hggdh PabloRubianes Pendulum
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston hggdh
<cjohnston> Just a few minutes all.. trying to get this thing setup
<cjohnston> doesn't appear as though abdobonna is here
<cjohnston> #voters iulian
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston hggdh iulian
<iulian> Ta.
<cjohnston> kdub: ping
<kdub> cjohnston, pong
<cjohnston> #topic kdub membership application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  kdub membership application
<cjohnston> kdub: give me just a second and then you can go
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<cjohnston> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board meeting for December 6 2012. The wiki page for the Review Boards are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<cjohnston> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cjohnston> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cjohnston> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cjohnston> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cjohnston> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<cjohnston> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cjohnston> kdub: that's you... tell us about yourself
<kdub> ok, here's my wiki:
<kdub> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinDuBois
<cjohnston> #voters micahg
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston hggdh iulian micahg
<kdub> I've been involved in open source, mostly as a coder for the past many years. my primary ubuntu community activity is organizing meetings for the california loco for the san diego area
<hggdh> and https://launchpad.net/~kdub
<kdub> I've been involved in a couple upstream projects like compiz/vlc/ffmpeg off and on for a while now
<kdub> ah yes, and that is my launchpad
<kdub> thanks hggdh
<hggdh> yw
<micahg> kdub: have you ever considered contributing to Ubuntu development directly?
<kdub> a while back (a few years) i tried my hand at some packaging for some optical character recognition applications
<kdub> i've handed off their maintenence since then though, never got into the swing of it
<kdub> some other things, was involved with the michigan loco from the time it started in about 2006 until i moved to california
<kdub> and then started organizing some san diego ubuntu hours (there weren't any in my city)
<cjohnston> kdub: I think we are ready to vote.
<cjohnston> #vote Voting on kdub's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Voting on kdub's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<hggdh> +1 thank you for your work, and please do not stop ;-)
<meetingology> +1 thank you for your work, and please do not stop ;-) received from hggdh
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<micahg> +1, nice community leadership
<meetingology> +1, nice community leadership received from micahg
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Voting on kdub's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cjohnston> Congrats kdub!
<kdub> whoohoo :)
<hggdh> kdub: welcome in
 * kdub dances
<Pendulum> kdub: congrats and welcome :)
<kdub> thanks hggdh and Pendulum :D
<cjohnston> #topic m_3's Ubuntu Membership Application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  m_3's Ubuntu Membership Application
<cjohnston> m_3: your up
<m_3> Hi Y'all
<m_3> I'm Mark Mims... wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkMims
<m_3> I'm on the Juju Ecosystem Team
<m_3> I write charms, teach charmschools, and help others integrate juju/charms into their current devops workflow
<m_3> Part of that work involves going to conferences to talk and do booth-duty
<m_3> I've done a bit of packaging... mostly in juju-related things (juju,juju-jitsu, charm-tools, charm-helpers)
<m_3> but also outside of it things like ppas for hadoop, reconnoiter
<cjohnston> What's this juju thing?
<m_3> and then I've had some uploads sponsored for ganglia
<m_3> cjohnston: ha!
<m_3> funny you should ask... :)
<cjohnston> juju deploy dinner -e office
<m_3> cjohnston and I charmed up the summit app for the last LinuxPlumbers conf
<hggdh> heh
 * jcastro_ is here in support of m_3's application!
<m_3> That's pretty much all I can remember about myself at this point of the day
 * hggdh wonders who is jcastro_ ... ;-)
<m_3> any questions on stuff?
<hggdh> m_3: please wait a bit, backstage discussions
<m_3> np
<iulian> m_3: What area of physics are you a geek of?
<m_3> I studied quantum computation
<m_3> how much noise quantum algorithms can tolerate before being as slow as the classical versions
<m_3> now I'm back in a physics department at USU and working more on distributed computing topics
<Pendulum> m_3: have you interacted with the Ubuntu community for things other than charms or has that been the majority of your involvement?
<cjohnston> #vote Voting on m_3's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Voting on m_3's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<m_3> Pendulum: I've packaged some things too... some of those out of deps for charms... some of those things out of just pure interest
<iulian> m_3: Ah, boring. I was about to ask you a topological quantum field theory question but that's not really related. :)
<m_3> lots of big data related stuff now like hadoop and r
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<m_3> iulian: well.... you'd be surprised actually how much geometry goes into quantum coding.. code bundles and the like.  happy to chat on it in a pm anytime
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<jcastro_> \o/
<hggdh> who is this jcastro_ ?
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Voting on m_3's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<hggdh> :-)
<cjohnston> What hggdh said
<m_3> whoohoo!
<cjohnston> Congrats Mark!
<m_3> thanks gang!
<hggdh> m_3: welcome in sir
<Pendulum> m_3: congrats and welcome :)
<iulian> Congrats m_3.
<hggdh> jcastro_: thank you for your support for m_3
<cjohnston> #topic danielmato's Ubuntu Membership Application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  danielmato's Ubuntu Membership Application
<m_3> thansk a bunch
<cjohnston> danielmato: your up.. tell us a little about yourself
<danielmato> Hi to all
<iulian> Hi there.
<danielmato> I'm a video editor and open source enthusiastic
<danielmato> I'm from uruguay
<danielmato> working in the uruguay loco team
<danielmato> this is my launchpad page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielMato
<danielmato> i'm trying to give support as best as i can, in the community
<danielmato> basically giving workshops, presentations, talks, migrations, and in the made of some tutorials
<danielmato> collaborate in the new ubuntu uy page, as beta tester, and making some graphics
<cjohnston> #vote danielmato's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: danielmato's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<Pendulum> +1 keep up the great work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the great work! received from Pendulum
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<hggdh> +1 thank you for all your help with the LoCo, and all your work for Ubuntu and free software
<meetingology> +1 thank you for all your help with the LoCo, and all your work for Ubuntu and free software received from hggdh
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<cjohnston> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: danielmato's Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cjohnston> Congrats danielmato
<danielmato> yeah!!! really thanks, i will keep the work up
<hggdh> danielmato: bienvenido
<danielmato> hggdh, gracias
<hggdh> danielmato: de nada :-)
<cjohnston> #topic ttoine's Membership Application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubunut Memebership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  ttoine's Membership Application
<cjohnston> ttoine: your up
<solarcloud_3scre> What meeting is this for exactl;y ?
<ttoine> helloa all
<ttoine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ttoine
<iulian> solarcloud_3scre: See topic.
<PabloRubianes> Vamo !!!
<ttoine> I started to use Ubuntu at its very beginning, with Dapper
 * holstein would like to thank ttoine for helping the ubuntustudio team.. here to show support!
<ttoine> As a musician, I worked on how to produce music with free software, and the simplicity of Ubuntu started to be my new base
 * solarcloud_3scre doesn't understand what 'membership' relates to ?
<ttoine> I am not a developper with programmation skills
<cjohnston> solarcloud_3scre: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<ttoine> but I spend much of my time testing hardware, finding the key developper etc. to be sure that everything is working
<ttoine> I am one of the founder of Ubuntu Studio, and still there to make it alive
<solarcloud_3scre> "Membership is not required for contribution, but contribution is required for membership." this is an Odd meeting. :\
<ttoine> I spend a lot of my free time on workshops, etc.
<holstein> solarcloud_3scre: feel free and PM me if you have more questions.. otherwise a meeting is in progress. cheers
<Pendulum> ttoine: Is there a reason that you've waited this long to apply for membership?
<czajkowski> solarcloud_3scre: I did ask you not to interrupt their meeting
<ttoine> Pendulum, I just didn't seen what use I could have
 * zequence is also here to show support for ttoine
<ttoine> but know that I am working on developping the Ubuntu Studio community, I clearly see the interest
<Pendulum> ttoine: What have you been doing more recently? It feels like as far as documentation of your involvement goes, there was quite a bit a few years ago, but then a chunk in the middle where we don't see much until the last very short while?
<ttoine> As i say I am not skilled with packaging etc.
<micahg> ttoine: that's a different board ;)
<ttoine> So I spend time with finding information, testing application in workflows
<zequence> Recently ttoine has been involved in the Ubuntu Studio PR team, which is not yet actively creating news. ttoine will be a key person in that team
<holstein> ttoine is working with creating a public relations team for ubuntustudio. trying to help us attract new users and team members
<micahg> zequence: right, but membership is based on past contributions, not future ones (though we hope they continue)
<ttoine> micahg, I have past contributions
<Pendulum> holstein: how long has ttoine been working with you on Ubuntu Studio?
<ttoine> and my current work for Ubuntu Studio can not be seen on launchpad
<zequence> ttoine has been helping us define what that team is to do, by doing research etc
<micahg> ttoine: right, but as Pendulum mentioned, there's this gap we're trying to piece together where it ended
<holstein> Pendulum: this past cycle is when i noticed input.. though ttoine was around the project before i was there
<ttoine> micahg, because on my wiki page, there is only "since 2007" ?
<cjohnston> ttoine: I don't see anything in Launchpad or on the wiki page to show anything that you have been doing recently.
<ttoine> cjohnston, because I am working on the community management at the moment
<Pendulum> ttoine: we see that it says "since 2007", but we're only hearing testimonials from people who are saying "a couple months". No one is hear backing you up that you've been doing work consistantly since 2007
<cjohnston> ttoine: do you have anything that you can show me with that?
<micahg> From my IRC logs, I see activity from Mar/Apr this year, then mostly a break, then Nov on again
<micahg> in #ubuntustudio-devel
<ttoine> cjohnston, we are working on the moment at the creation of ubuntu studio pages on facebook, G+, twitter
<ttoine> and about what we should post and where
<cjohnston> The ubuntu studio page on facebook was created on 2/23/08
<ttoine> the aim is to create a community of users and developpers. That' what I have always ask to the team, but it is quite recent as a goal. Mainly because in the past, we needed a lot of programmation skills
<ttoine> for this summer, I had a surgery of shoulder and was off until I can work again
<holstein> i know for me, i want ubuntustudio to have a venue for helping attract new users and developers.. and contribute upstream
<cjohnston> I agree with that holstein
<holstein> i think ttoine is trying to help us envision that goal
<holstein> its a small team though.. and we have lots of developing contributors, but few contributing developers. if you know what i mean
<ttoine> cjohnston, because I don't package and write code, you can't see my involvement, that's the point ?
<hggdh> ttoine: no, not at all. What we are missing is this gap in the middle. And more testimonials covering it
<Pendulum> ttoine: That's why we're asking about people who can testify on the amount of time/work you've done in the last year or os
<holstein> i hope that through getting news out and having folks on the team like ttoine who are commiting to helping us shape our public image, we can better attract what we need
<ttoine> hggdh, a big part of the Ubuntu Studio team has leave at the time current team leader started to lead
<zequence> ttoine was very much involved in filling this page with content https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelations
<ttoine> I am one of the last team member from the original team. That's why nobodyd can testify for this period
<zequence> ..which is the preparation work for our public relations team
<micahg> zequence: I see no edits from him, mostly you and ScottL
<micahg> or rather all you and ScottL
<micahg> and that page is only 1.5 months old
<zequence> micahg: I've copied and pasted the text from a whiteboard for a blueprint, which ttoine helped put together
<ttoine> micahg, a lot of things have been discussed with me on irc
<zequence> ..and we did edit the page some more after that, of course
<micahg> right, but again, that leaves us with the last couple months
<ttoine> launchpad is not my favourite place
<ttoine> micahg, that's right
<ttoine> but think that between to release period, there is a lot of time where people like me are not very needed for developement
<Pendulum> ttoine: We think you've done some good work. While we feel like we cannot approve you at this time, we'd really like you to gather some more testimonials for the time you've spent working in the last year or so and then reapply.
<Pendulum> You don't need more things on launchpad, just more people who can say that they've witnessed at least 6 months of sustained contribution, please.
<ttoine> Pendulum, ok
<Pendulum> ttoine: if you have any further questions, please feel free to contact the board. I'm also happy to go over your wiki page with you if you contact me at pendulum@ubuntu.com
<ttoine> Pendulum, I don't any question
<cjohnston> Thanks to everyone for coming to the meeting and congrats to those who were accepted.
<cjohnston> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  6 23:02:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-06-22.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-06-22.01.html
<ttoine> As I said, I didn't see the interest for me in the past years to be a "member". But now that it is important for Ubuntu Studio, It is not possible. Perhaps I should have attend many years ago...
<hggdh> ttoine: you most certainly should have. Our only issue is that we cannot see the *sustained* piece of our requirements
<hggdh> ttoine: so, if you get people to give you testiminials for the gap, you will be all set
<Pendulum> hggdh: +1
 * iulian nods.
<ttoine> hggdh, I will try. But a lot of people are now off with their Ubuntu Studio involvement
<ttoine> thanks for your time
<hggdh> ttoine: but if they are still around, this is still possible
<abk> hi
<abdelrahmanbonna> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-07
<holstein> micahg: may i PM you?
<micahg> holstein: sure
<abdelrahmanbonna> hi
<sfeole> o/
<kyleN_> Hi all
<kyleN_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Dec  7 16:01:04 2012 UTC.  The chair is kyleN_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<kyleN_> This is the weekly Ubuntu Nexus 7 meeting
<vanhoof> o/
<janimo> hi
<sfeole> \o/
<ogra_> moo
<kyleN_> Today Alex Chiang, who normally runs the meeting, is in Korea, so I will moderate
<kyleN_> First, I'll summarize the news
<kyleN_> Then folks can give status
<kyleN_> then we'll have discussion/Q&A
<ayan> o/
<kyleN_> So here's the news:
<kyleN_> The nux fix has landed, and raring "works" (ogra will discuss this after the summary)
<ogra_> will i ?
<kyleN_> Ubuntu Nexus 7 Installer is almost ready for raring support. version1.7 will be available shortly
<ogra_> seems i will :)
<kyleN_> Work to develop a nice approach for finding memory leaks with valgrind is progressing
<kyleN_> So, if ogra is willing, perhaps he can take it up now, or sfeole
<kyleN_> #topic raring/nux
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: raring/nux
<ogra_> well, no issues with unity and nux anymore in raring
<vanhoof> ogra_: drop shadow on the top panel as well?
<ogra_> the "panel shaddow is black bar" issue is still there
<janimo> ogra_, as of today's image?
 * vanhoof hasn't  updated today yet :)
<ogra_> janimo, as of wednesdays image
<ogra_> vanhoof, no, the fix for that one hasnt landed
<ogra_> beyond that i got plymouuth to half work on the images
<bcurtiswx> Where can we find the plans for the nexus 7 for raring ?
<ogra_> oem-config works fine but since xnox switched it to compiz it seems to have input issues
<vanhoof> ogra_: as of late?
<ogra_> usually a reboot fixes these ... (you land in oem-config again automatically until it is done)
<vanhoof> ogra_: I got through an install (and plymouth \o/) no issues yesterday
<sfeole> <~~~ no issues here as well
<ogra_> vanhoof, yeah, the change is two weeks old or so
<ogra_> it doesnt seem to happen always or to everyone
<janimo> bcurtiswx, the strictly nexus related plans are to make current ubuntu robust on it and support at least some hw features (sensors, webcam)
<ogra_> and the reboot not always fixes it
<ogra_> so expect some support questions if people start using it widely
<ogra_> oh, and before i forget ...
<ogra_> we have a serial debug shell via USb by defautl now
<janimo> bcurtiswx, the plans are mostly in Launchpad blueprints and in the stated goals of the project but not written up as plans anywhere AFAIK
<kyleN_> bcurtiswx, the genera plan is to make Ubuntu raring "work" on nexus 7. We are mostly concerned with system level stuff as opposed to GUI for now
<ogra_> attach the nexus to your PC and run: screen /dev/ttyACM0 115200
<bcurtiswx> janimo, ubuntu right now on a small screen like the nexus 7 is had to work with. It would be nice to develop "home" screen for them, maybe like the dash but with the users choice of apps, and they would always be fullscreen?
<ogra_> and you will get a login prompt
<kyleN_> ogra, nice. should that be put in the wiki/
<bcurtiswx> kyleN_, OK, maybe I'll turn into an idea/thinktank for the GUI aspects
<kyleN_> ?
<ogra_> kyleN_, that would make sense yeah
<kyleN_> sfeole, can you please add that to the wiki?
<ogra_> it prevents users from having to set up wlan and install ssh
<janimo> bcurtiswx, I agree, however this particular project only concers itself with making this hw a good enough platform to test such new UIs on, not actually have them done by 13.04
<ogra_> to get debugging stuff done
<ogra_> i think thats all wrt images atm ...
<ogra_> the touchscreen bug is still there in raring
<janimo> ogra_, and that serial should work after a dist-upgrade, no need for a fresh raring install?
<sfeole> might want to comment on bluetooth in raring...
<ogra_> oh, and brcm-patchram isnt in raring atm, so even though we have BT fixes in kernel it wont work yet
<kyleN_> [action] sfeole to add usb debug shell instructions to wiki
<meetingology> ACTION: sfeole to add usb debug shell instructions to wiki
<ogra_> janimo, right
<ayan> ogra_: I'm working on getting it in asap.
<ogra_> ayan, getting what in ?
<ayan> ogra_: you can find the daily build here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ayan/+recipe/brcm-patchram-daily
<ayan> not that it is changing often.
<janimo> ogra_, till just commented on LP that his BT on raring is not fixed by the kernel patch
<janimo> it was only 12.10 that worked
<ogra_> ayan, i dont think we want the hack in the archive
<ayan> the hack?
<janimo> which is unfortunate, but bluez did not seem to change that much since 12.10
<ogra_> ayan, loading the firmware is/should be part of the driver ... not of a userspace tool
<ogra_> there are patches upstream that even seem to have gone into mainline for this
 * ayan nods.
<ogra_> but there arent any for our kernel version
<ayan> okay.
<kyleN_> ok, so BT support is pending
<ogra_> if we would use the hack, i would just upload the ppa package to the archive ... untouched
<janimo> bcurtiswx, here is the work item status for 13.04 http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-desktop-targets-for-embedded.html
<ogra_> which is the last resort solution if kernel cant work
<ayan> it isn't quite a 'hack' though.  it is software writen and maintained by a broadcom developer.
<ogra_> yeah, true
<ayan> (software of questionable quality though.)
<ogra_> but there are upstream efforts for getting patchram support into the kernel itself
<ayan> right.  understood.
 * janimo sees this as a helper tool like with many hw peripherals (usb modeswitch for ex)
<ogra_> if we could make use of teehse that would be great
<ogra_> if we cant we still have the fallback
<janimo> not ideal but if it is the only way to get it work properly now...
<ogra_> janimo, well, our x86 kernel can handle patchram stuff just fine
<janimo> it is at 3.7 though no?
<janimo> a lot of our issues would go away if we had a 3.7 kernel too (and we'd likely have some new)
<ogra_> the patcches went into mainline ... so it feels a bit odd adding a userspace hack for something that doesnt need one on other arches
<bcurtiswx> janimo, thx
<ogra_> yeah, no 3.7 for us until the binary drivers fullly work with it
<ayan> ogra_: it needs to be on other archs.
<ogra_> ayan, on other arches the BT stack of the kernel performs the patchram call
<ogra_> while we do it in userspace and by replacing hcitool completely
<vanhoof> thats device by device though I thought, what has landed upstream doesn't cover all brcm combo cards /me thought
 * ayan wasn't aware that it actually landed upstream.
<ogra_> bug 1065400
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1065400 in linux (Ubuntu Raring) "Support for loading Broadcom bluetooth firmware" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065400
<ogra_> it was at least requested
<ayan> okay.
<ogra_> anyway, if we could use that approach that would be a ton better
<ogra_> if we cant we can still pull the package in
<kyleN_> Sounds like we have a plan A and a possible hack/fallback/plan B
<ogra_> right
<kyleN_> done, ogra?
<ogra_> yeah, wrt images i am :)
<kyleN_> ok, thanks
<ayan> so should i continue with the brcm-patchram userspace stuff?
<vanhoof> ayan, i'd say as a fallback, perhaps ping jesse to see about raring and the device in the n7
<ayan> got it.
<kyleN_> thanks ayan
<ogra_> awesome
<kyleN_> OK moving along to the installer supporting R
<kyleN_> I understand installer pkg 1.7 will support R
<kyleN_> but it is not yet available - will be soon
<vanhoof> it is now :)
<sfeole> it's avail now
<vanhoof> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-nexus7/+archive/ubuntu-nexus7-installer
<kyleN_> aha
<ogra_> great
<sfeole> wiki is already updated
<ogra_> usb-creator work is still pending
<kyleN_> vanhoof, thx, and sfeole.
<vanhoof> with the raring dailys looking nice I've moved over to raring now
<ogra_> i think i'll start with that with xnox after the vacation days
<vanhoof> same process as before, it'll pull the daily if its new(er) than what you have locally
<ogra_> we might change the image output format mind you
<ogra_> i.e. we peobably will merge both files into one etc
<ogra_> *probably
<vanhoof> ogra_: ok, if you do, no biggie to fix-up on my end if needed
<kyleN_> ogra, can you pls explain the usb creator approach and how it differs from the installer approach?
<ogra_> but i'll shout if that happens
<vanhoof> cool
<xnox> ogra_: yeap, ideally i would like to have a quick chat about the format with you.
<ogra_> kyleN_, a supported distro toool thats installed in all ubuntu installs to do the flashing
<ogra_> instead of a separately maintained installer script
<kyleN_> ogra, to flash an attached n7 'disk' directly, or via an external media?
<ogra_> kyleN_, the plan is to have usb-creator generally support android flashing
<ogra_> it should function similar to the script installer ....
<ogra_> download on demand etc
<ogra_> xnox, yeah, lets do that after the meeting in #ubuntu-arm
<kyleN_> ok, thx ogra
<kyleN_> I forgot to announce the Installer topic -oops
<kyleN_> [topic] valgrind mem leak work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: valgrind mem leak work
<kyleN_> Alex chiang's patch to valgrind to accept a path to a dir with debug symbols was commited
<kyleN_> upstream
<kyleN_> We are working on modifications to apport to:
<kyleN_> create a dir with the debug symbols for the app you want to valgrind
<kyleN_> valgrind it and produce a log file that can be used to identify memory leaks
<kyleN_> in the longer run, we hope to normalize those log files and upload them if they are 'unique' in a manner that lets people find them and act on them
<ogra_> will that in any way influence "normal" apport behavior for normal users of armhf ?
<kyleN_> ogra_, no
<ogra_> great
<kyleN_> [topic] QA updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA updates
<kyleN_> sfeole, putting you on the spot without warning here
<kyleN_> sorry - anything to add?
<sfeole> sure
<sfeole>  If some of you want to dist-upgrade from 12.10 -> 13.04 then you may hit some known issues.
<sfeole> Please refer to the following bugs:
<sfeole> #1087295
<sfeole> #1087335
<sfeole> it's not a smooth transition, requires a little bit of work.
<sfeole> but other than that should function as expected
<kyleN_> sfeole, is there any reason to do dist-upgrade instead of using the new installer R support?
<ogra_> and generally we encourage re-flashing anyway
<sfeole> nope, up to the user, as ogra_ just said we encourage a re-flash
<ogra_> (so people have proper user, tomezone and language setup)
<sfeole> yes
<kyleN_> perhaps the wiki should make that clear, if it doesn't aleady
<sfeole> Thats it for now, I have been updating the Nexus7/KnownIssues page every day and bringing it up to speed. So be sure to check it out
<ogra_> its just for the hardcore guys that insit on upgrading :)
<sfeole> Also
<sfeole> all of the other exciting announcement that we have covered today will be on the Wiki in about 5 minutes.
<sfeole> <-- done
<ogra_> wrt known issues and wikippages ....
<kyleN_> thanks sfeole
<ogra_> the FAQ link now takes you to askubuntu ....
<ogra_> from the main wiki page
<sfeole> yea, that was our goal to migrate most of the questions to AU
<ogra_> on askubuntu the amount of FAQs seems to be ratrher sparse while the actuall FAQ wikipage is pretty full ... but its not easily discoverable anymore
<ogra_> will anyone transfer these faqs, or should we have a "wikiFAQ" link or some such to not lose alll the answers ?
<sfeole> most of the questions in the wiki faq should be already up on Ask Ubuntu, simply search for the Nexus-7 tag
<kyleN_> +1 on migrate faq to AU and delete from wiki
<kyleN_> ogra, one follow up question
<kyleN_> ogra, your comment above about timezone/language/etc is that if you reinstall/reflash, you will use oem-config, which prompts you for timezone, language, and creates a user account with your specifics, right?
<sfeole> kyleN_: correct
<ogra_> http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/nexus-7?sort=faq&pagesize=50 only has 8 FAQs
<ogra_> kyleN_, exactly
<kyleN_> so sfeole, pls massage the wiki/AU faq situation
<sfeole> ogra_: I'll take that action item to add the remaining questions to that faq
<ogra_> i think chris was working on that
<ogra_> k
<kyleN_> [action] sfeole to handle faq migration from wiki to askubuntu
<meetingology> ACTION: sfeole to handle faq migration from wiki to askubuntu
<kyleN_> OK, so that's it for the agenda.
<kyleN_> any comments/discussion/etc?
 * ogra_ has some personal announcement ....
<kyleN_> go for it
<ogra_> this is officially my last day ...
<ogra_> ... for this year :P
<kyleN_> -1
<kyleN_> +1 ;)
<sfeole> haha,
 * ogra_ sees pale faces :)
<vanhoof> ogra_: dont make me grab my heart medicine
<vanhoof> kthx
<bcurtiswx> I think all of freenode will be gone these next few weeks
<ogra_> i.e. i didnt take my vacation in a timely manner
<kyleN_> picks up jaw and gets back into chair
<ogra_> but even though i'm vacating i'll largely be around
<bcurtiswx> ogra_, why call it a vacation? :P
<ogra_> bcurtiswx, yeah, its more like a free month
<kyleN_> So I will leave it to Alex Chiang to schedule this meeting respecting upcoming holdiay season
<kyleN_> we can expect dholbach to announce as usual
<kyleN_> dholbach is out today
<ogra_> right, the llast ten days everything is shut down anyway
<ogra_> we only have two of them before new year
<kyleN_> ok, anything else?
<kyleN_> ogra, and all, Happy Holidays!
<kyleN_> going once...
<ogra_> heh, thx
<kyleN_> going twice...
<kyleN_> cheers and thx all
<vanhoof> thanks kyleN_, you too!
<kyleN_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Dec  7 16:40:47 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-07-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-12-07-16.01.html
<sfeole> o//
<ogra_> thx
<tgm4883> So there is suppose to be a Ubuntu-TV meeting in here right now. We've got nothing to discuss at the moment, but I'm free to answer any questions I can that anyone has
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-09
<canaima1> holaaaaa
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-02
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  2 16:33:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I've got another short week (off friday)
<jdstrand> I need to catch up from last week-- I think I am not too bad at this point
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks for picking up the triage while I was out
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: np!
<jdstrand> there are a couple of updates I am eyeing
<jdstrand> and a few work items
<jdstrand> (I hope to upload a new apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu this week and write some image tests for it)
<jdstrand> I've also got patch piloting
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have a few updates ready, but I've found issues with them, so they probably won't go out this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently still poking at getting rid of ruby1.8 from main for trusty
<mdeslaur> and I'm patch piloting on wednesday
<mdeslaur> I'll be picking up more CVE updates
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor again this week.
<mdeslaur> Oh, and I'll spend time evaluating whether we can turn tlsv1.2 back on in openssl in trusty
<sbeattie> I'll again be working on testing improvements, both for IPC and other things...
<sbeattie> as well as some non-IPC related parser fixes.
<sbeattie> which is pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<jdstrand> sbeattie: how is that coming?
<sbeattie> slow going, but making progress.
<jdstrand> what kind of coverage do we have for jj's patches?
<jdstrand> rough estimate? what is the plan wrt those testing improvements and putting things in a ppa and in Ubuntu?
<jdstrand> s/rough estimate\?/(rough estimate)/
<jjohansen> jdstrand: good question I need to sit down and coordinate with sbeattie
<jjohansen> jdstrand: there will be a new test kernel this week
<jdstrand> ok
<jjohansen> however I wouldn't recommend it as something everyone install
 * jjohansen checks to see if there is anymore hair to pull out
 * tyhicks goes
<tyhicks> I'm catching up from last week
<tyhicks> I ended up spending a little more time than expected last monday debugging apparmor_parser so I didn't get much time to look into enabling yama on touch
<jdstrand> tyhicks: did you get to the bottom of the segfaults?
<tyhicks> I've done the investigation and now need to backport a simple patch that enables stacking yama with other lsms
<tyhicks> jdstrand: yes
<jdstrand> cool
<tyhicks> apparmor_parser doesn't really handle multiple rule types very well
<tyhicks> well, it handles multiple rule types as far as parsing them
<jdstrand> tyhicks: idr if we mentioned goldfish as part of the yama work, but can you include it?
<tyhicks> but doesn't track them very well internally
<tyhicks> it turns out that jj has some patches in the works that improves the situation
<tyhicks> jdstrand: definitely
<tyhicks> after that, I'll start benchmarking ecryptfs and dm-crypt on arm
<tyhicks> (for the user data encryption blueprint)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
 * jjohansen is working on apparmor this week, I'll be getting out the next test kernel, coordinating with sbeattie, and hopefully digging out some parser patches to coordinate with tyhicks on
<jjohansen> I think thats it for /me sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week, thanks mdeslaur for filling in last week :) I'm making a good dent in the backlog of unreviewed AppArmor patches, it'd be nice to finish reviewing all the previously outstanding patches, and there's a new MIR audit requested for bbswitch that I'd like to get to this week
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson, you're up :)
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<jdstrand> jjohansen: oh, btw, is the goldfish patch in the goldfish kernel?
<chrisccoulson> i'm finishing off bug 1214049 this week (hopefully by tomorrow or wed at the latest). i've started pushing bits to https://code.launchpad.net/~chrisccoulson/oxide/accelerated-rendering already
<ubottu> bug 1214049 in Oxide "Support accelerated compositing" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1214049
<jjohansen> jdstrand: no not yet
 * jdstrand nod
<jdstrand> s
<chrisccoulson> i got the packaging for oxide done last week, although it did fail to build in a PPA. i've fixed a few build issues as a result of that (see the last few commits in https://code.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: what ppa are you using?
<chrisccoulson> and i reviewed oSoMoN's navigation API work last week (https://code.launchpad.net/~osomon/oxide/navigation-api/+merge/196704/), which will land shortly
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, https://launchpad.net/~chrisccoulson/+archive/ppa for now. i didn't want to waste an arm builder until there was a successful build on i386/amd64
<chrisccoulson> as the round-trip time is quite long ;)
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> ack
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: istr you saying you had a particular ppa in mind for arm. which is that?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, i can probably use https://launchpad.net/~canonical-arm-dev/+archive/ppa
 * jdstrand is 'Not allowed here'
<chrisccoulson> ah :)
<ogra_> jdstrand, want access ?
<chrisccoulson> it does exist :)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: I'm not sure what to suggest
<jdstrand> sure, I'll take the access, but would it be better to use a public ppa so everyone can get their hands on it to test?
<mdeslaur> can't we get a non-virtualized builder for oxide?
<mdeslaur> s/builder/ppa/
<jdstrand> I think we want daily builds for it too, but that is a slightly different topic
<jdstrand> (however, those would also ideally be public)
<chrisccoulson> who do we ask for a non-virtualized builder?
<jdstrand> I would start with infinity
<jdstrand> he may be the one to actually do the setup, but he might need some paperwork
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: is that something you plan on working on this week?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, yeah, sure
<jdstrand> cool, let's move on
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have anything else?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, no, i'm done now
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-adodb.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/argyll.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libapache2-mod-nss.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsocialweb.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libspring-java.html
<jdstrand> TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  2 17:06:59 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-02-16.33.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-02-16.33.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand !
<jdstrand> :)
<micahg-work> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<ScottK> o/
 * stgraber waves
<Laney> hi
<ari-tczew> hi
<Mirv> hello
<ScottK> Who's chair today?
<micahg-work> o/
<micahg-work> and I see we've reached quorum
<micahg-work> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  2 19:04:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is micahg-work. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<micahg-work> Welcome to the DMB meeting
<ScottK> I pinged barry on #u-devel.
 * barry waves
<micahg-work> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<Laney> the agenda is false?
<micahg-work> yes
<micahg-work> well
<Laney> oh, the top says micahg-work and the bottom says ScottK
<ScottK> Since micahg-work already started, he wins.
<micahg-work> we skipped the last meeting due to no agenda
<micahg-work> so, I thought it was my turn...
<ScottK> Go for it.
<barry> take it away, eric the orchestra leader
<micahg-work> #subtopic micahg to restructure PPU teams.
<micahg-work> carried
<micahg-work> #topic Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Per Package Uploader Applications
<micahg-work> #subtopic PPU for Timo Jyrinki
<micahg-work> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU
<micahg-work> Mirv, care to introduce yourself?
<Mirv> sure. it reads better on the wiki page, but a Debian Developer and Ubuntu Member currently working in integrating some of the Ubuntu Touch packages and also working on Qt 5 packaging
<Mirv> ie. part of the 'landing team' who orchestrate what pieces of Touch land next to the archives
<Mirv> and I added a sorted version of the package list today to the page, in case the Qt 5 package set would be wanted to be defined separately for other people after me
<ScottK> I think it would be useful to discuss the application in terms of Qt5 and other stuff as I think they present different challenges.
<Mirv> for the 'Other packages', all but qtcreator are part of the canonicalupstream2distro system, where I currently have privilege to have a new version copied to archives, but I currently need an 'ack' from core dev if there are any packaging changes
<Mirv> which is the same deal as for the other non-coredevs on the team
<ScottK> Qt Creator is a bit of a special case on it's own.
<barry> Mirv: so, are you suggesting two package sets, with qtcreator* as separate?
<barry> i.e. qtcreator* not in a package set
<Mirv> barry: I wasn't sure how you prefer defining package sets vs. just listing a big list per developer. in the longer term it would make sense to have two package sets defined, one for Qt 5 and one for cu2d.
<Mirv> and leave qtcreator out of those both sets
<Mirv> since robru and sil2100 may be interested in the cu2d ones later, and mitya57 in the Qt 5 set
<Laney> I was thinking about the idea of a cu2d set
<Laney> Not sure what others would have to say about that
<micahg-work> are they related in any way other than that they're in cu2d?
<Laney> They impose consistent packaging
<barry> certainly seems like the qt5 pkgset makse sense
<Mirv> micahg-work: not otherwise but that Canonical is upstream for all of them. there are several stacks and also more packages besides those I've listed initially.
<ScottK> I think Qt Creator should not be in the Qt5 package set, but a separate PPU right.
<Laney> None of our tools would work for assessing contributions to them though
<Mirv> and yes, cu2d packages have consistent packaging via bzr split mode, so bzr bd always works and packaging is included inline
<micahg-work> so, cu2d is like a MOTU equivalent for Canonical upstream packages?
<micahg-work> * a cu2d packageset
<micahg-work> hrm, let's table that for now
<Laney> umm, I only expect it would be appropriate for people on the team that wrangles that stuff
<Laney> ok
<Laney> would be interesting for someone to come back to us with a proposal on it I guess
<micahg-work> yes, that sounds like a good idea
<micahg-work> #info Anyone interested in a packageset for cu2d packages should feel free to make a proposal to the DMB
<micahg-work> Mirv, so, have you had any issues trying to push the qt stuff through Debian?
<ScottK> Fortunately he knows someone on the Debian FTP team so Qt5 stuff seems to make it through New pretty quickly.
<Mirv> micahg-work: mostly it has worked fine so that I've eg. given basis of some module packaging, they've tweaked it further and I've synced back. they've obviously rejected some stuff they don't want, like we have a policy breaking qtbase multi-arch thing that was added part of the arm64 work.
<micahg-work> that's always nice :)
<ScottK> There's also issues with Canonical using private headers that Debian chooses not to expose.
<Mirv> I just got people stop to use qtsensors-private so that can be again synced for Debian
<ScottK> Excellent.
<Mirv> qtbase and qtdeclarative private headers are going to stay in Debian too
<ScottK> That's the kind of progress I like to hear about.
<ScottK> (for the others - Debian is only packaging private headers needed to build other Qt5 modules).
<stgraber> Mirv: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<ScottK> Also on the Ubuntu side, the packaging is maintained with the Kubuntu team in bzr branches in the Kubuntu namespaces using our normal processes.
<micahg-work> that's good to hear as well
<ScottK> AFAICT, Ubuntu - Kubuntu stuff is all good at the moment.
<Laney> Cool, that all sounds nice
<Mirv> stgraber: I should be, but I'm just subscribing my canonica address too since I think they might be filtered to a folder on my private e-mail
<ScottK> Mirv: You said the Ubuntu SDK stuff is being split out of the Qt Creator source?
<Laney> How did you choose which 'other' packages to list?
<ScottK> When will that be done and where does it go?
<Mirv> ScottK: yes, it's split now, qtcreator has no Ubuntu bits and the qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu source package uses qtcreator-dev that was crafted to the former
<ScottK> Excellent.
<Mirv> Laney: I went through the cu2d stacks and selected those I work often on (sdk stack like ui-toolkit) and those with Qt/QML modules
<Laney> OK, and you say you got some Qt stuff in sync but https://launchpad.net/~timo-jyrinki/+synchronised-packages doesn't appear to list that
<Laney> has it not happened yet?
<Laney> (or did someone else do the actual syncing?)
<Mirv> Laney: like synced from Debian as is? any *opensource-src packages that don't have ubuntu version number ar such.
<Mirv> I've not requested any syncs as such, and used the word 'sync' also in the sense that I've synced the ~kubuntu-packagers branches to be identical or near identical to Debian packaging. I still need something to build the PPA packages from.
<ScottK> I can vouch for the fact that a lot of work by Mirv and mitya57 has been done to sync or minimize differences.
<ScottK> Also some of the work will need to wait for Qt5 5.2 to land.
<ScottK> (nothing to do with packaging - some of the Canonical upstream stuff had regressions with 5.1)
<Laney> ok then, thanks, was looking for things being uploaded to Debian & then synced
<Laney> guess that will happen with time
 * Laney is done
<stgraber> Mirv: some of the packages you're applying for upload rights for are seeded, how can you tell which image they are likely to impact and when to refrain from uploading?
<Mirv> stgraber: well I think those are seeded in the touch images, and currently we're in full manual mode so the landing team meetings decide when to allow uploads or not. we also run tests on each package manually before upload (copy), and in case of some not listed like indicators the cu2d runs desktop tests always.
<stgraber> that's not answering my question ;)
<stgraber> soon enough some of those packages will be in images other than touch (if they aren't already), we have a tool that can let you know which, what is it?
<Mirv> ah.. I've really only looked at lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds branches when needed, rmadison I think does not list seed information
<stgraber> correct, rmadison doesn't and ubuntu-seeds is a pain to parse if you're called germinate
<stgraber> we have a tool called seeded-in-ubuntu for that
<Mirv> nice, making a note
<stgraber> in general we try to use proposed-migration blocks around milestones to prevent accidental changes to the images, it's however always a good idea to think twice when uploading around those times and use seeded-in-ubuntu to make sure your change won't affect one of the products that's about to release
<micahg-work> While we've reduced the amount of time and packages that are frozen, cedrtain uploads freezes can still impact others, so it's good to check during those periods and be aware
<micahg-work> *certain uploads during freezes
<Laney> Even proposed blocks get annoying if you want to put a bugfix in and there's already an upload
 * Mirv continues writing notes
<micahg-work> indeed
<Laney> What happens with "allowing uploads" when Kubuntu wants to do a change?
<Laney> Not strictly related to this application, I understand. ;-)
<Mirv> and we already have this situation that was observed that xubuntu started including ubuntu-system-settings (not sure how intentionally) which pulls eg. ubuntu-ui-toolkit
<Laney> well, they didn't want to make a change to it
<Laney> I mean if there's some patch to cherry-pick or whatever
 * micahg-work wonders why Xubuntu did that (with his xubuntu-dev hat on), guessing it was pulled in by something else
<Laney> some alternate recommends following thing
<Laney> from an indicator IIRC
<stgraber> micahg-work: yeah, we had a time where a bunch of indicators would recommend some packages in the wrong order which indirectly included ubuntu-system-settings
<micahg-work> Xubuntu isn't pulling it in at the moment according to seeded-in-ubunut
<stgraber> micahg-work: I had them fix those recommends and I believe it did the trick for most images, not sure if something was missing for xubuntu though
<micahg-work> yeah, I hope to audit the Xubuntu seed sometime soon for stuff like that
<Mirv> Laney: for this cycle Kubuntu is not going to have much interest yet in Qt 5, but that will definitely change in the next one. Qt uploads should probably be co-operated/acked, a discussion that should continue in the next UDS.
<ScottK> Mirv: We do plan to start packaging KF5 modules this cycle, so we do need to be coordinated.
<Mirv> ScottK: ok.
<Laney> OK, can discuss that outside of the meeting
<micahg-work> #voters stgraber ScottK Laney micahg-work barry tumbleweed
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney ScottK barry micahg-work stgraber tumbleweed
<micahg-work> #vote Create Qt5 packageset for initial packages listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU and grant upload rights to Mirv and kubuntu-dev
<meetingology> Please vote on: Create Qt5 packageset for initial packages listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU and grant upload rights to Mirv and kubuntu-dev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<micahg-work> #voters bdrung
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney ScottK barry bdrung micahg-work stgraber tumbleweed
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<Laney> We need a description
<Laney> but yes
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> hrm, right, description
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<ScottK> Packages for source developed by http://qt-project.org/ - list to follow.
<micahg-work> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Create Qt5 packageset for initial packages listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU and grant upload rights to Mirv and kubuntu-dev
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ScottK> Mirv: congratulations.
<micahg-work> everyone ok with ScottK's description?
<Laney> It doesn't need the list part
<Laney> but yeah
<Mirv> thank you
<Laney> (the list is the set of packages in the set)
<ScottK> OK.
<barry> wfm
<micahg-work> #info description for Qt5 packageset: Packages for source developed by http://qt-project.org/
<micahg-work> #vote Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator
<meetingology> Please vote on: Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<ScottK> BTW, the initial set of packages should be all the ones in Mirv's list that end in opensource-src.
<micahg-work> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Mirv> yes, and it's also separately listed below in alphabetical order
<micahg-work> #vote  Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu u1db-qt ubuntu-ui-toolkit ubuntu-ui-extras dee-qt poppler-qml-plugin qtpowerd qtubuntu-camera qtubuntu-media qtvideo-node qtubuntu qtubuntu-sensors content-hub music-hub qml-friends libhud-qt qmenumodel qtorganizer5-eds history-service telephony-service address-book-app dialer-app messaging-app unity-webapps-qml
<meetingology> Please vote on: Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu u1db-qt ubuntu-ui-toolkit ubuntu-ui-extras dee-qt poppler-qml-plugin qtpowerd qtubuntu-camera qtubuntu-media qtvideo-node qtubuntu qtubuntu-sensors content-hub music-hub qml-friends libhud-qt qmenumodel qtorganizer5-eds history-service telephony-service address-book-app dialer-app messaging-app unity-webapps-qml
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<ScottK> +0 I don't see much in the way of endorsements for this work and I'm not sure I understand the implications of PPU for CI packages to easily judge.
<meetingology> +0 I don't see much in the way of endorsements for this work and I'm not sure I understand the implications of PPU for CI packages to easily judge. received from ScottK
<stgraber> +0 I have to agree with ScottK here + the current cu2d process makes it very hard to get a good feel about an applicant
<meetingology> +0 I have to agree with ScottK here + the current cu2d process makes it very hard to get a good feel about an applicant received from stgraber
<micahg-work> +0 same as ScottK
<meetingology> +0 same as ScottK received from micahg-work
<tumbleweed> +0 all of that
<meetingology> +0 all of that received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Timo Jyrinki to get PPU for qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu u1db-qt ubuntu-ui-toolkit ubuntu-ui-extras dee-qt poppler-qml-plugin qtpowerd qtubuntu-camera qtubuntu-media qtvideo-node qtubuntu qtubuntu-sensors content-hub music-hub qml-friends libhud-qt qmenumodel qtorganizer5-eds history-service telephony-service address-book-app dialer-app messaging-app unity-webapps-qml
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Mirv> (didrocks is the cu2d person who asked me to add those packages and endorsed that part)
<micahg-work> that's not quite right, motion not carried
<Laney> I think you guys should work on a proposal for granting cu2d upload rights
<Mirv> okay
<Laney> we'll be quite happy to consider it
<micahg-work> #info Vote on PPU for other packages did not pass (requires +4)
<micahg-work> yes, please
<Mirv> it's not very well formed indeed, especially since cu2d in itself is not that familiar to most. the idea is to reduce the need to get the 'acks'.
<Mirv> I'll chat with didrocks
<micahg-work> #topic any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: any other business
<micahg-work> we're already 10 minutes over, so anything else to discuss?
<Mirv> (if you'll excuse me, I've pressure applied that I need to get to sleep)
<barry> just thinking it would probably be best to skip the dec 30 meeting, but we can take that to email
<micahg-work> Mirv, thanks, and congratulations
<Mirv> thanks all, see you again with the cu2d at some point
<tumbleweed> there's re-election, but that's still a way off
<tumbleweed> just reminding people
<micahg-work> #action discuss Dec 30 meeting on ML
<meetingology> ACTION: discuss Dec 30 meeting on ML
<micahg-work> #info DMB elections coming up early next year
<Laney> oh yeah, that's interesting
<Laney> can do the call first half of january though, so still a way off
<micahg-work> right, that's why I didn't action it
<micahg-work> #action stgraber to get DMB owned qt5 packageset created with the following packages: qt3d-opensource-src qtbase-opensource-src qtconnectivity-opensource-src qtdeclarative-opensource-src qtdoc-opensource-src qtfeedback-opensource-src qtgraphicaleffects-opensource-src qtimageformats-opensource-src qtjsbackend-opensource-src qtlocation-opensource-src qtmultimedia-opensource-src qtpim-opensource-src qtquick1-opensource-src qtquickcontrols-o
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to get DMB owned qt5 packageset created with the following packages: qt3d-opensource-src qtbase-opensource-src qtconnectivity-opensource-src qtdeclarative-opensource-src qtdoc-opensource-src qtfeedback-opensource-src qtgraphicaleffects-opensource-src qtimageformats-opensource-src qtjsbackend-opensource-src qtlocation-opensource-src qtmultimedia-opensource-src qtpim-opensource-src qtquick1-opensource-
<micahg-work> pensource-src qtscript-opensource-src qtsensors-opensource-src qtserialport-opensource-src qtsvg-opensource-src qtsystems-opensource-src qttools-opensource-src qttranslations-opensource-src qtwebkit-opensource-src qtx11extras-opensource-src qtxmlpatterns-opensource-src
<micahg-work> hrm, that failed
<micahg-work> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x16dc050>
<micahg-work> #action stgraber to create qt5 packageset with packages listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to create qt5 packageset with packages listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoJyrinki/DeveloperApplication-PPU
<micahg-work> #action micahg to create LP team for qt5 packageset uploaders with initial members of Mirv and kubuntu-dev
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to create LP team for qt5 packageset uploaders with initial members of Mirv and kubuntu-dev
<micahg-work> #action stgraber to get PPU added for Mirv to qtcreator
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to get PPU added for Mirv to qtcreator
<micahg-work> I think that's enough for now
<micahg-work> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  2 20:19:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-02-19.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-02-19.04.html
<micahg-work> thanks all
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-03
<dholbach> good morning
<MooDoo> morning :)
<smoser> o/
<adam_g> o/
<jamespage> o/
<hallyn> \o
<hallyn> all right let's get going
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  3 16:00:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> Previous meeting minutes at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20131126
<hallyn>  ?
<hallyn> what as that about?
<hallyn> i'll assume it's a mistake and move on,
<hallyn> smoser sync with utlemming on building cloud images for alpha 1, targets = seed-review, gpt
<smoser> hm... utlemming ^ ?
<smoser> lets mark that done, and i'll do it now.
<hallyn> ok
<hallyn> jamespage do seed-review email
<hallyn> saw it on the list i think
<hallyn> jamespage, gaughen review blueprints and accept for trusty
<utlemming> hallyn: cloud images will have an alpha 1
<gaughen> hallyn, we did that yesterday, it's partially done
<hallyn> ok, won't renew the action item then, thanks
<hallyn> gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there
<gaughen> not done
<hallyn> [ACTION] gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there  (carry over)
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen file bug with status.u.c to get ubuntu server topic tracking in there  (carry over)
<hallyn> thanks
<hallyn> all: write up blueprints, and have them ready for review by November 28
<hallyn> were we all good boys and girls?
<gaughen> smoser?
<gaughen> were you a good boy?
<smoser> never
<gaughen> lol
<smoser> but i have 1 of 3 done-ish.
<smoser> i will work on others.
<hallyn> well deadline passed so wwon't renew that :)
<hallyn> moving on,
<hallyn> [TOPIC] T Development Opening
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: T Development Opening
<gaughen> based on our review yesterday, we do have updates for some folks to make to the blueprints
<hallyn> who wants to take this?
<gaughen> and of course smoser
<hallyn> jamespage: arosales: ^
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<jamespage> hallyn, sure
<jamespage> so start-ish of cycle still
<jamespage> get those blueprints updated as per gaughen's feedback
<jamespage> but not looking to bad
<arosales> Dec 19 for Alpha 1 which sounds like utlemming is going to cut a cloud image for
<jamespage> sensible BP's for an lts
<hallyn> ok, thanks - moving on
<jamespage> merges and syncs still important focus right now - we need to get version bumps in early as possible
<hallyn> ah.  where is the url with theh list of not-done merges/syncs?
<jamespage> everyone should know about 'grep-merges' - its easier than going to merges.ubuntu.com
<hallyn> hm,  ok
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<jamespage> hallyn, I think rbasak did some work on a server focussed merge report but I don't know where that lives
<hallyn> jamespage: do you want an action for ppl to look at merges?
<jamespage> yes please
<hallyn> [ACTION] everyone look at grep-merges output and merge/sync as much and early as possible
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone look at grep-merges output and merge/sync as much and early as possible
<hallyn> jamespage: thanks
<hallyn> caribou is not here
<hallyn> does anyone else want to say anything about server/cloud bugs?
<hallyn> going once,
<jamespage> hrm
<jamespage> I know one that is hitting caribou and his guys right now
<jamespage> bug 1241674
<hallyn> that is appropriate to discuss here?
<ubottu> bug 1241674 in juju-core "juju-core broken with OpenStack Havana for tenants with multiple networks" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241674
<jamespage> yeah - it is
<hallyn> carry on :)
<jamespage> I poked the upstream owner on that one
<jamespage> he's promised to update the bug report
<jamespage> with details on plans etc...
<hallyn> i don't see a link to upstream bug... who is the owner?
<hallyn> anyone here?
 * arosales is here
<hallyn> ok, moving on
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<hallyn> psivaa is not here
<arosales> hallyn, is that re bug 1241674 ?
<ubottu> bug 1241674 in juju-core "juju-core broken with OpenStack Havana for tenants with multiple networks" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241674
<hallyn> arosales: yes
<hallyn> arosales: are you the upstream bug owner? :)
<jamespage> hallyn, mgz
<jamespage> sorry
<arosales> looks like jamespage filed :-)
<arosales> and there he is
<jamespage> mgz is the upstream owner
<hallyn> ...  do you want an action for yourself relating to this?
<hallyn> (or anyone else...)
<arosales> and 1241674 is the upstream bug
<hallyn> arosales: then why isn't mgz marked as owner?
<arosales> jamespage, any action for ubunt server here?
<jamespage> no its all upstream right now
<arosales> hallyn, task is out for juju-core
<hallyn> ok, thanks.
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I don't have anything to report this week. Are there issues or questions?
<hallyn> smb: hi
<jamespage> hallyn, no - it was just pertient to carbous section
<hallyn> jamespage: ok, thanks
<hallyn> anyone have a question for smb?
<arosales> jamespage, juju will mostly likely land that in trusty
<hallyn> smb: thanks :)
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smb> hallyn, welcome :)
<hallyn> rbasak is not here,
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> A big merge+sync irc party perhaps?
<hallyn> Woohoo!  Meeerggeeee
<hallyn> guess not, moving on
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
 * hallyn leaves this open for a minute 
 * smoser applauds hallyn's frat-boy excitement over a merge party.  and quickly puts on his toga.
<smoser> i'd say for open discussion...
<hallyn> toGA toGA MERGE MERGE SYNC
<smoser> please see Jamespage's mail
<hallyn> topic?
<jamespage> smoser, mail?
 * smoser searches for link
<smoser> oh wait. i thought you had sent one.
<jamespage> I've not sent the one about seed package review yet - sorry being slack on that
<smoser> yeah, that one
<smoser> :)
<jamespage> today
<hallyn> ooh...  do we need a new action item?
<smoser> so, after jamespage mails it with a timestamp in the past, please read at
<smoser> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-December/thread.html
<hallyn> sorry i thought i'd seen the email on that!
<hallyn> but i guess that was irc
<smoser> probably you saw http://pad.ubuntu.com/server-seed-review
<hallyn> [ACTION] jamespage to send email on server seed [carry over]
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to send email on server seed [carry over]
<hallyn> right
<hallyn> ok, then
<hallyn> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<hallyn> Next meeting will be Tuesday Dec 10 at 16:00 UTC
<arosales> hallyn, thanks for chairing
<hallyn> smoser chairing
<hallyn> thanks everyone
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  3 16:21:47 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-03-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-03-16.00.html
<jamespage> thanks hallyn
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  3 16:59:42 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<henrix> o/
<sforshee> o/
<cking> o/
<rtg> o/
<bjf> o/
<smb> \o
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> Incoming
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> First, a big thank you to apw for wrestling our kernel related
<ogasawara> blueprints and work items into place to make the above links useful
<ogasawara> again.  Our work items and owners are as follows:
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-secure-boot           || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || bjf       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking     || core-1311-kernel                || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || client-1311-xorg-general        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The master branch for trusty has been rebased to the latest v3.12.2
<ogasawara> upstream stable kernel.  We also continue to track the latest v3.13
<ogasawara> kernel on our unstable branch and most recently rebased to v3.13-rc2.
<ogasawara> Again, we shall switch our master branch from tracking v3.12 to v3.13
<ogasawara> once we cycle through the initial -rc's and feel it is stable enough for
<ogasawara> wider consumtion, ie uploaded to the archive.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 19 - Alpha 1 (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 12 - 12.04.4 Kernel Freeze (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara>  * NOTE: Even though the kernel freeze date for 12.04.4 is Dec 12,
<ogasawara>          patches needed to have landed in the SRU cadence starting
<ogasawara>          this week to make the 12.04.4 point release.  Contact us
<ogasawara>          *immediately* if there are patches which need to land.
<ogasawara>          https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2013-November/034753.html
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Nov. 26):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Prep'ing
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep'ing
<bjf>   * Quantal - Prep'ing
<bjf>   *  Raring - Prep'ing
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Prep'ing
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  3 17:04:20 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-03-16.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-03-16.59.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-05
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  5 16:04:52 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> xnox stokachu slangasek jodh cjwatson doko stgraber barry bdmurray
<xnox> \o/
<xnox> boot-ui:
<xnox> * Fixed bug #540645
<xnox> discard:
<xnox> * Work on bug #1039887, merge proposal sent, but i don't like the
<xnox>   approach i took.
<xnox> cross-compile:
<ubottu> bug 540645 in plymouth (Ubuntu Precise) "no fsck messages shown in details mode (no splash on cmdline)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540645
<ubottu> bug 1039887 in mountall (Ubuntu) "fstab does not honor /proc mount options" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039887
<xnox> * sent qmake/cmake/qt cross-compilation status report to doko
<xnox> mdadm-by-default:
<xnox> * working on merging mdadm container support into d-i (grub-installer
<xnox>   patch appears to be incomplete)
<xnox> * working on restructuring dmraid/mdadm activation (testing locally)
<xnox> misc:
<xnox> * assisted with ubiquity autopilot tests, now running in
<xnox>   jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com
<xnox> * transitions, build-fixes, cross-build fixes...
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> stokachu let me know he can't make the meeting this week - or for all of December actually, but he will be sending a delegate to the meetings for the rest of the month when he can
<doko> may I conitnue? have to leave early
<slangasek> and I have nothing to report, other than [VAC] :)
<slangasek> jodh:
<jodh> * Upstart
<jodh>   - core-1311-upstart-roadmap: Good progress on cgroup support,
<jodh>     although we can only go so far until the cgroup manager (cgmanager)
<jodh>     spec is completed (bp core-1311-cgroup-manager):
<jodh>     - Updated spec (http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/Cgroup) with further
<jodh>       sub-cgroup details and new initctl command.
<jodh>      - Discussions with straber and hallyn on end-to-end handling of
<jodh>        interactions between Upstart and the cgmanager.
<jodh>     - Wrote parsing code and subset of parser tests for "cgroup" stanza.
<jodh>     - Wrote scafolding code that will eventually call the cgmanager.
<jodh>     - Implemented some of the serialisation+deserialisation code for the
<jodh>       cgroup handling.
<jodh>   - Raised bug 1258098 - in progress (currently working on new tests).
<ubottu> bug 1258098 in upstart "D-Bus session bus address not serialised" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1258098
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - upstart cgroups:
<jodh>     - Implement D-Bus method and initctl command to notify Upstart of
<jodh>       cgroup managers address.
<jodh>     - Work with stgraber+hallyn to identify best way to avoid upstart
<jodh>       blocking on the cgroup manager.
<jodh>     - Update the spec to add an explanation of how Upstart will
<jodh>       communicate with the cgmanager.
<jodh>     - coerce Upstart devs to help clear the MP backlog :)
<jodh> â¥
<slangasek> doko: go ahead now
<doko> - compiler work, cross compiler work, bootstrap work, breaking the world with a soname bump
<doko> - aarch64 now has ssp, but not yet enabled by default
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> Off on Monday with an eye injury.  Mostly better now.
<cjwatson> Resurrected my auto-cross-builder.
<cjwatson> Fixed rsyslog regression that broke permission handling in /var/log (bug 1256695, plus bug 484336 as a bonus).
<ubottu> bug 1256695 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Trusty) "cannot create log files in /var/log" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1256695
<cjwatson> Otherwise I've pretty much been in a cave working on GRUB, particularly for several customer bugs.  These have included:
<ubottu> bug 484336 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "/etc/rsyslog.conf permissions incorrect/missing for creation of dynamic files" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/484336
<cjwatson>  - Bug 1097570: backported to precise and awaiting SRU review.
<ubottu> bug 1097570 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "grub2-signed can not find the right device when there are two filesystems containing the file '.disk/info'." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1097570
<cjwatson>  - Bug 1240360: fixed in unstable/trusty; backported to precise and awaiting SRU review.
<ubottu> bug 1240360 in OEM Priority Project "Rename boot option from "recovery mode" to "safe mode" in GRUB menu" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1240360
<cjwatson>  - Bug 1178618: fixed upstream after several iterations to get the basic approach right; backported to unstable/trusty; backported to precise and awaiting SRU review.
<ubottu> bug 1178618 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "--hotkey option does not work when the menu is hidden" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1178618
<cjwatson>  - Bug 1065281: isolated what will hopefully be the last piece of this, a patch from GRUB 2.00 that we never backported; committed backport for next precise upload.
<ubottu> bug 1065281 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "Installer crashed when trying to partition 4k/4k sector hard disks" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065281
<cjwatson>  - Bug 1237519: arranged to read partition start offsets from sysfs; fixed upstream; committed backport for next unstable/trusty upload; working on backport for next precise upload.
<ubottu> bug 1237519 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "Grub2 fails to install to non-standard device path" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1237519
<cjwatson>  - Extensive work on a new snapshot for experimental, intending to get this into trusty before the Christmas break so that we can see how it fares with new ports (ARM, ARM64, PV-GRUB2).  Initial upload almost ready; current roadblock is a grub-install bug.
<cjwatson> ..
<stgraber> Hard to know what to report on since we haven't met in quite a while :)
<stgraber> Anyway, in the past few weeks, I've mostly been doing:
<stgraber>  - cgmanager
<stgraber>    - Helped refine the design and provided prototype implementation
<stgraber>    - Published the cgroup spec for Upstart on the wiki: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/Cgroup
<stgraber>    - Now helping Serge fight with DBus and libnih limitations
<stgraber>      (it's not impossible that we may have to give up and go back to our own minimal protocol)
<stgraber>    - Setup initial website and mailing-list
<stgraber>  - LXC
<slangasek> stgraber: any more info you can provide on the status of core-1311-cgroup-manager?  (since jodh mentions things are blocked on the upstart side)
<stgraber>    - Updated our python3 binding with a dozen missing functions/properties
<stgraber>    - Setup auto-generated documentation at http://qa.linuxcontainers.org/master/current/doc/ (thanks to jodh for the doxygen support!)
<stgraber>    - Setup a new mailman server for linuxcontainers.org, planning to migrated all the container mailing-lists on Sunday
<stgraber>    - A ton of code review and dealing with existing bug reports and pull requests
<stgraber>    - Tested unprivileged containers, now waiting for the 3.13 based kernel to actually have this working
<slangasek> jodh: "notify Upstart of cgroup manager's address" - er, surely the cgroup manager should have a well-known address!?
<stgraber>    - Working on a config rework branch
<stgraber>    - Working on the container auto-start branch
<stgraber>    - Porting lxc-start-ephemeral to the new clone binding
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>    - Wrote a few more tests for the system-image ports branch
<stgraber>    - Setup goldfish as a new device target in trusty
<stgraber>    - Helped debug some problems (that turned out not to really be problems)
<stgraber>    - ISO tracker integration work
<slangasek> doko: what soname bump are you breaking the world with?
<stgraber>  - SRU and New reviews
<stgraber>  - A bunch of merges (and still slowly working on resolvconf on the side)
<barry> stgraber: mailman3 right? <wink>
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stgraber> slangasek: hallyn is doing most of the implementation which so far unfortunately meant a lot of head banging because of DBus acting rather weirdly with userns
<stgraber> barry: 12.04, so mailman 2.1
<barry> stgraber: yeah, just kidding :)
<doko> slangasek, I think that was pcre3
<jodh> slangasek: we're not strictly blocked just yet - there are still tests I can write.
<barry> system-image 2.0.2; LP: #1215586 (deferred); LP: #1257757; LP: #1256947
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1215586 in ubuntu-system-settings "The u/i cannot handle the array-of-dictionaries update descriptions" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215586
<jodh> slangasek: re address, maybe - it's not spec'ed yet?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1257757 in system-image (Ubuntu) "/usr/sbin/system-image-dbus:FileNotFoundError:get_keyring:verify:__exit__:_exit_wrapper:<lambda>:_check_for_update:check_for_update:run_until:_get_blacklist_1:get_keyring:__exit__:__exit__:_exit_wrapper" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1257757
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1256947 in system-image (Ubuntu) "Incorrect use of context managers causes FTBFS on buildds" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1256947
<barry> debian bug #731280 (genshi 0.7 + python 3); debian bug #731187 (retest); flufl.i18n conversion to pybuild; debian bug #729924 (vim py3 support)
<ubottu> Debian bug 731280 in genshi "genshi: Update to 0.7 and add Python 3 support" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/731280
<ubottu> Debian bug 731187 in python-setuptools "python-setuptools: upgrade failure for experimental's 1.3.2-1" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/731187
<ubottu> Debian bug 729924 in vim "vim: Add Python 3 support" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/729924
<barry> python issue 19888 (__qualname__/__name__ repr bug), issue 19555 ($SO); LP: #1253523; new python-setuptools testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1253523 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Python2.7 v. 2.7.6-1 in proposed has an incorrect dependency" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253523
<barry> core-1311-python3-roadmap (spreadsheet updates); LP: #1253458
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1253458 in byobu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Switch to Python 3" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253458
<slangasek> doko: the C++ lib again? (Since the C lib hasn't had an soname change in recorded history :)
<barry> dmb meeting, vUDS
<barry> done
<jodh> slangasek: the point is that upstart needs to be notified when to connect and where to connect. If the latter can default, great, but we'd still need 'initctl connect-to-cgmanager' or similar.
<cjwatson> stgraber: I just went for the last week, fwiw
<bdmurray> I'm gonna cover the whole period
<bdmurray> bug triage of update-manager, ubuntu-release-upgrader bugs
<bdmurray> review and commenting on dpkg already installed and configured bug reports
<stgraber> slangasek: the specific issues we seem to be having so far is unreliable scm_cred passing over a DBus socket (looks racy for some reason), DBus somehow closing connections when coming from another userns and lack of threading support in our libnih
<bdmurray> consolidation of duplicates of dpkg bug 1241893 regarding configuring a package that failed during unpack
<ubottu> bug 1241893 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg tries to configure a package that failed during the unpack stage" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241893
<bdmurray> investigation into console-setup conflict bug reports when installing ubuntu
<bdmurray> tested pendrive linux usb creator and reported bug 1257957 re: ubuntu-website
<ubottu> bug 1257957 in Ubuntu Website "Create a bootable USB stick on Windows page needs updating" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1257957
<bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1251357 regarding double gzip'ing of apt-clone_system_state
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1251357 in apport (Ubuntu) "package_hook will gzip a file a second time" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251357
<bdmurray> tested fix for usb-creator bug 915626
<ubottu> bug 915626 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "usb-creator-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV in _dbus_watch_invalidate" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915626
<bdmurray> SRU verification of update-notifier bug 1193509
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 580961 re unzip for Q and R
<bdmurray> Saucy SRU upload of the fix for bug 1024590 (aptdaemon)
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal for adding -proposed into uvt machines
<bdmurray> reviewed existing json data sources for their utility (also the bugs they include)
<ubottu> bug 1193509 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Saucy) "notified of crash reports which you do not have permission to read and submit" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1193509
<bdmurray> created a bugs resolved upstream, hottest bugs, release nominations json data source
<ubottu> bug 580961 in unzip (Ubuntu) "unzip fails to deal correctly with filename encodings" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/580961
<ubottu> bug 1024590 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Saucy) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in _on_download_changed(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'get_value'" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024590
<bdmurray> worked on bug notifier reading json data files
<bdmurray> modified bug notifier to search for bugs with tags recently added to them
<bdmurray> pushed changes to lpltk for bugs to have the date_tag_added method
<bdmurray> modified lpltk to return bug's creation date for when the tag was added if it is not found in the activity log
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal for change to phased-updater reviewing system (don't review fully phased updates)
<bdmurray> wrote some code for checking an apport crash to check errors to see if it is still occurring in saucy or trusty
<bdmurray> review and closing of update-notifier crashs related to cdroms.c (which went away in saucy)
<bdmurray> review of potentially fixed software-properties crashes
<bdmurray> wrote a blog post about my upstart user job for my magicpad
<bdmurray> errors work
<bdmurray> sorted out selected version issue (bug 1191182)
<ubottu> bug 1191182 in Errors "choosing a period on the main page appends a version to the query" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191182
<bdmurray> investigation into updating assets.ubuntu.com with new javascript
<bdmurray> worked on being able to update ubuntu-assets.errors (team membership)
<bdmurray> investigation into counter discrepancy between landing page and problem page
<slangasek> jodh: no, not "default" - it should not be configurable at all, the cgroup manager address should be a well-known name, and the dbus interface shouldn't expose an option to change it since we will never need this...
<bdmurray> submitted a merge proposal for canonical-memento with the updated assets revision number
<bdmurray> pinged webops / oatman regarding missing yui build folder in canonical-website-editors branch of ubuntu-assets
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal to stop using assets for errors
<bdmurray> merged mpt's branch changing the colors of the releases at errors
<bdmurray> added in a counter for release:src_package:src_version to errors
<bdmurray> checked to see if this counter was being written to I discovered an error with submit.py in daisy and fixed it
<bdmurray> worked with webops to update errors and daisy and switch away from assets
<bdmurray> committed a fix for bug 1167239
<ubottu> bug 1167239 in Errors "Bug link in bucket heading looks nothing like a link" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1167239
<slangasek> jodh: as for notification of when to connect, given that the address is always known, can't upstart use inotify here?
<bdmurray> â done
<stgraber> slangasek: can inotify tell you once something bound the socket vs when it was created?
<doko> slangasek, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcre3/1:8.31-2ubuntu2
<xnox> slangasek: jodh: i thought upstart would be starting cgroups manager, and thus post-start can emit event to signal upstart that cgroups manager is ready.
<xnox> or well the fact that cgroups manager started should be enough...
<stgraber> slangasek: actually, no, inotify won't work because the path will be /sys/fs/cgroup/cgmanager and /sys/fs/cgroup is a tmpfs mounted by cgmanager pre-start so you can't get an inotify watch on that
<slangasek> stgraber: threading support - why are you using threads? :-(
<jodh> xnox: that would be another way to do it. However, up to this point, we've adopted the same technique as the notify-* initctl commands.
<jodh> slangasek: maybe - sounds like we either need more discussion or more spec! :)
<stgraber> slangasek: I'm not sure, would have to ask Serge. My best guess is that it's to address some of Google's performance concerns but that's just a guess.
<xnox> jodh: seems like we have too many nofity-* API already. I wonder if it can be a "notify" "var" "value".
<slangasek> stgraber: I'm pretty sure socket creation == bind, for unix sockets.  but yeah, if the directory heirarchy makes it untenable to do this directly with inotify, I guess a dbus callback may be saner
<jodh> xnox: yeah, I've actually been vaguely thinking of something like that for a while.
<slangasek> jodh: discussion/spec> agreed. :)  Where are the discussions on this happening?
<jodh> slangasek: all over - we have the cgmanager lxc thread (with draft cgmanager spec), the upstart cgroup spec thread, the upstart cgroup spec (courtesy of stgraber), and conversations here and there. Would be kinda useful to have a mini sprint on this I feel.
 * doko has to leave now. will read the backlog
<jodh> slangasek: I can put another mail out to upstart-devel requesting further feedback on the updated upstart cgroup handling spec for now though.
<slangasek> jodh: a sprint has the opposite effect of what I'm looking for, which is that the design process is transparent and gets more eyeballs on it
<slangasek> let's keep discussion on upstart-devel for now, please
<slangasek> and maybe there should be cc:s to the lxc list, wherever that is?
<stgraber> I don't think anything that's been discussed in the spec or on upstart-devel currently influences the design on the cgmanager side, so Ccing would just cause extra noise at this point
<slangasek> ok
<jodh> slangasek: right. Yes, I'll cc them. I was not necessarily implying a private sprint fwiw :)
<slangasek> stgraber: is there a spec on the cgmanager side that documents the socket address, so the upstart spec can reference that?
<stgraber> we're currently having a separate discussion on lxc-devel with Tejun Heo on the inner workings of the daemon itself but that's not very relevant to upstart so I don't think we should Cc that one the other way either
<slangasek> jodh: public or not, a sprint has fewer people participating than a mailing list :)
<stgraber> slangasek: it's not set in stone yet due to kernel limitations we may end up with two sockets
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else re: lightning round?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] FeatureDefinitionFreeze
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: FeatureDefinitionFreeze
<slangasek> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule, feature definition freeze for trusty was... November 21
<slangasek> I'm not entirely sure how that was meant to work, given that this was the last day of vUDS ;)
<slangasek> but we do need to get our blueprint drafting done, work items recorded, etc. ASAP
<slangasek> please make sure you have this done for any blueprints you're drafter on by EOD tomorrow
<slangasek> ok?
<barry> ack
<slangasek> (and please mark your blueprints 'review' or 'pending approval' when done)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<slangasek> recipes to share for creative use of turkey leftovers?
<barry> don't look at me :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  5 16:35:35 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-05-16.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-05-16.04.html
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<cjwatson> I would like to expound briefly upon the merits of not being poked in the eye
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> cjwatson: heh
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> cjwatson: you should have at least waited until next sep 19
<cjwatson> I did have a natty eyepatch for a couple of days
<dholbach> hello hello!
<dholbach> #startmeeting Ubuntu Community Council meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  5 17:00:50 2013 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Community Council meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda looks like we have nothing on our agenda
<dholbach> and I'm not sure we have set up a schedule to meet up with teams/boards/councils for the T cycle yet
<dholbach> let me check my inbox to see if I missed something
<dholbach> does anyone have any agenda items or things you wanted to bring up with the CC?
 * pleia2 waves
<dholbach> hi pleia2
<elfy> hi pleia2
<dholbach> the only thing I know which needs attention is https://launchpad.net/~communitycouncil not being updated yet - I pinged Mark about it
<pleia2> yeah, we've done a pretty good job of cleaning up our todo list
<mhall119> o/
<pleia2> might want to add the teams/boards/councils schedule item to trello
<mhall119> dholbach: is there anything for the CC to do for the upcoming community events?
<pleia2> dholbach: thanks for committing those planet changes
<dholbach> mhall119, individual members are going to be involved, but not for the CC AFAICS
<dholbach> we could probably wait another 5 minutes to see if anyone has any agenda items and I could put together a proposal for meeting up with teams/boards/councils
<dholbach> and we have a look at it together
<pleia2> sure
<dholbach> pleia2, mhall119, elfy: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6525659/
<dholbach> do you see if I missed anyone we normally met up with?
<dholbach> I'm going to double-check I actually picked the right dates
<pleia2> dholbach: I don't think we'll have a TB within 2 weeks
<pleia2> maybe swap that spot with DMB
<elfy> pleia2: agreed
<dholbach> pleia2, good point - will do
<dholbach> I left a break for christmas/new years
 * pleia2 nods
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6525665/
<elfy> from what I remember of past agendas that's them all
<pleia2> dholbach: I really like the translations team, but they are twice :)
<elfy> lol
<dholbach> hah, I know why
<dholbach> I copied from the wiki and they couldn't make one of the meetings :-)
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> I think it's good
<elfy> dholbach: is anyone likely to be about to do the LoCo the day before we release trsuty?
<pleia2> oh, do we want to do a check in with the QA team at all? they've grown a lot
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6525675/
<dholbach> good point
<dholbach> will add them
<pleia2> elfy: it'll be hard for most teams, but loco council shouldn't have *that* much to do, relative to others
<dholbach> elfy, hm, not sure... it might be a quick meeting with the LoCo council, the day before release
<dholbach> QA folks added: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6525678/
<pleia2> actually, doc team should be pretty quiet day before release
<dholbach> (and some dates fixed)
<elfy> dholbach: maybe move them - I'd imagine the loco team could be busy
<pleia2> maybe do Lo``Co Council & QA team, bump Doc down to day before release
 * mhall119 feels like he's not contributing much to this
<elfy> pleia2 took the words out of my mouth
<dholbach> done: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6525687/
<dholbach> hum, now I moved the DAT and IRC folks
<mhall119> dholbach: maybe next time we should use etherpad, rather than abusing paste.u.c
<dholbach> would that be all right too?
<elfy> that looks ok to me
<dholbach> mhall119, yeah, I don't know why I picked paste.u.c
<pleia2> looks good
 * mhall119 is happy with it
<dholbach> I think Laura took an action to mail the teams - I'll have a chat with her tomorrow, and if not I'm sure we'll find somebody who can mail the teams
<pleia2> great
<dholbach> thanks a bunch, that was quick :)
<elfy> :)
<dholbach> does anybody have any other agenda items?
<pleia2> nope, time to make coffee
<mhall119> not me
<elfy> nothing here
<mhall119> time to finish coffee
<dholbach> perfect
<pleia2> thanks for chairing, dholbach :)
<dholbach> thanks a bunch everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  5 17:18:20 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-05-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-05-17.00.html
<dholbach> pleia2, I was lucky - I took a short meeting ;-)
 * dholbach hugs you all
<elfy> :)
<elfy> speak soon
<czajkowski> aloha
<cprofitt> hello
<crisyelit> hola a todos
<echevemaster> naudy: still aren't started?
<naudy> aun no  echevemaster
<dkessel> good evening
<Emerling> dkessel: Hi, good evening
<naudy> hi dkessel
<SergioMeneses> echevemaster, naudy Emerling dkessel greetings
<cjohnston> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, amachu, and bkerensa. Meeting time.
 * balloons waves
<echevemaster> SergioMeneses: hi mate
<naudy> SergioMeneses o/
<naudy> hi CarlosNeyPastor
<chilicuil> welcome to the ubuntu membership meeting, sorry for the delay, unfortunately the umb is not complete today, therefore we'll move the votation to the mail list
<echevemaster> oh.
<dkessel> hm
<naudy> ok
<IdleOne> o/
<chilicuil> dkessel and naudy will receive an email shortly, please send it to your supporters so they can send us their recommendations
<dkessel> ok
<naudy> ok
<chilicuil> thanks for your understanding, and sorry for the exception
<dkessel> well thank you for being there chilicuil ;)
<naudy> no problem chilicuil
<IdleOne> We promise to make the voting as quick as possible on our email list and you will get notified ASAP.
<Emerling> chilicuil:  ( ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com) it is email?
<chilicuil> Emerling: yep
<hggdh> all -- I am sorry for my lateness, but had issues with rain, sleet, and freezing rain on my way home
<echevemaster> how many umb are neccesary for the votation?
<Emerling> chilicuil:  thanks so much I send my testimony
<hggdh> echevemaster: at least 4 members of the board
<echevemaster> oh, i see hggdh
<Emerling> chilicuil:  yours send email to naudy  or naudy  send emails to yours?
<chilicuil> Emerling: we're sending mails to the interested parties (naudy and dkessel), and from there, they'll be able to reply or resend to their contacts for support queries
<Emerling> chilicuil: ok thanks
<chilicuil> Emerling: =)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-12-06
<GunnarHj> Hello docs folks! :)
<belkinsa> Hello there
<knome> hello GunnarHj
<GunnarHj> knome: Hi, and welcome in this context.
<knome> ta ta
 * pleia2 waves
<pleia2> ok, who wants to play chair?
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Dec  6 22:00:15 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<godbyk> Hello, everyone.
<pleia2> #chair godbyk
<meetingology> Current chairs: godbyk pleia2
<dsmythies> Hello.
 * belkinsa is here for the meeting
<knome> o/
<GunnarHj> me to
<GunnarHj> o
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<pleia2> meeting agenda :)
<knome> pleia2, pure links are #linkified without #link
<pleia2> dsmythies: ok to start off with your items from the blueprint?
<pleia2> #chair dsmythies
<meetingology> Current chairs: dsmythies godbyk pleia2
<pleia2> knome: neat
<eagles0513875> hey all :)
<eagles0513875> hey belkinsa
<pleia2> #topic Inter-group collaboration / cooperation
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Inter-group collaboration / cooperation
<eagles0513875> hey pleia2
<pleia2> so if everyone wants to browse to the blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1311-docteam-roundtable
<pleia2> dsmythies left a bunch of comments on this topic :)
<pleia2> eagles0513875: welcome to the meeting!
<pleia2> there was a possible solution and a work around for the translations workflow that currently leaves the server docs behind, any comments?
<dsmythies> I am looking for help with this one: "For the DeskTop help documentation, there is a jpeg file that includes the entity of the release name. This file has not been updated since Quantal, because nobody in the doc team knows the procedure. "
<knome> is it used anywhere?
<pleia2> (I don't really know much about translations, so I don't really understand the workings here)
<pleia2> dsmythies: I can take an action item to figure that out
<godbyk> dsmythies: Which file is it?
<dsmythies> O.K. thanks.
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to figure out where the release name jpg comes from
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to figure out where the release name jpg comes from
<dsmythies> I supply the file name in a moment...
<pleia2> thanks :)
<knome> aiui, the "workaround" mentioned in the blueprint is *the* solution
<godbyk> dsmythies: ./ubuntu-help/C/figures/ubuntu-quantal.jpg?
<knome> you *need* to update the package from project at doc string freeze
<knome> though the translations could be done against the product
<godbyk> https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/ubuntu-help/figures/ubuntu-quantal.jpg
<knome> which would mean translators could start working on the translations as soon as the strings change in the product
<knome> then all of that would be pushed in the package (at least on the translation freeze)
<dsmythies> ./ubuntu-help/C/figures/ubuntu-quantal.jpg? yes. thanks.
<dsmythies> you *need* to update the package from project at doc string freeze: Yes, thanks.
<knome> (and/)or the translation string freeze, if the translations are done against the project
<GunnarHj> Could the package be updated more frequently, to make it easier for the translators, and also make it easy for everyone to follow the progress with the docs?
<knome> if the translations are done against the project, there is no reason why it couldn't be done with every push
<knome> as long as people update the .pot file(s)
<dsmythies> I could update help.ubuntu.com more often if people want.
<dsmythies> We don't typically update the .pot file often.
<knome> that would be the solution though
<belkinsa> May I ask what is a .pot file is?
<knome> belkinsa, a translation template file
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<godbyk> belkinsa: It's the 'translation template' file. It contains the list of text that the translations should translate.
<knome> the issue with updating the .pot file often is that people who are translating actively might translate many strings that are dropped from the final version as further fixes and additions are made
<knome> the issue with not updating the .pot file often is that a lot of new strings become translatable at the same time
<knome> and it might be a burden that the translators can't handle, especially if that happens really close to the release
<GunnarHj> knome: The sooner we do our part, the better - still applies, right?
<knome> sure
<dsmythies> I agree, but tranlations drag on, and we want to be able to publish later trnalations without folding back in a new .pot file, if possible.
<pleia2> yeah, the docs evolve through the cycle so we don't want people translating *similar* strings 5 times because we keep changing wording
<pleia2> I believe strings that remain between releases remain translated, right?
<GunnarHj> pleia2: But, to be honest, how often does that happen?
<godbyk> That's the basic reason why we have a string freeze.
<knome> one of the things you can do is keep reviewing the strings before they land in the docs to make sure they are of high quality and do not need changing
<knome> pleia2, yes.
<pleia2> GunnarHj: historically, not often because there was one guy working on docs :) but we're reviving the team
<GunnarHj> pleia2: Ok, point taken. ;-)
<knome> documentators should take care of their wording.
<knome> if they mess it up, that's too bad, but it shouldn't happen again and again
<pleia2> GunnarHj: it may be a non-issue, but I just don't know yet
<knome> you probably want to talk with the translators to hear what they think
<dsmythies> O.K., lets move on.
<belkinsa> I agree on that.
<knome> they might either appreciate all-at-once or do not mind about having to translate certain strings multiple times
<pleia2> do we want to talk about upstream issues? (see the blueprint)
<godbyk> Upstream issues referring to gnome-docs or something else?
<pleia2> "During the 13.10 cycle, the docs (both the serverguide and Ubuntu DeskTop help) uncovered a number of issues where the root causes are really upstream GNOME yelp issues."
<pleia2> etc
<pleia2> so I'm thinking yes :)
<godbyk> pleia2: Ah! Gotcha.
<godbyk> Yeah, one problem we encountered early on was that some docs have conditional text in them.
<dsmythies> Yesm gnome stuff. I think Shaune McCance
<godbyk> The text varies depending on if you view the docs in Unity or GNOME Shell or LXDE, etc.
<knome> Comment from Little Girl with my apologies if this is in the wrong place - feel free to delete or move it (2013-11-03): ...
<knome> see the blueprint! :)
<godbyk> And there was a bug where the Yelp app wouldn't detect Unity properly.
<godbyk> So it'd always display GNOME Shell docs instead of Unity docs.
<GunnarHj> Has anyone filed a yelp bug?
<godbyk> I think we got the Unity bug patched and fixed, however. Did that patch make its way into the 13.10 repositories, dsmythies? Or were there other Yelp issues, too?
<pleia2> knome: ah yes! good catch, LittleGirl chatted with Shaun
<godbyk> GunnarHj: I filed the one about Unity (along with a patch).
<dsmythies> Yes, I filed upstream bug reports
<pleia2> bottom of blueprint whiteboard
<dsmythies> One upstream bug is fixed, but the fixed has yet to propagate down.
<GunnarHj> Not much more to talk about now then, or?
<godbyk> Okay. Who do we pester to get it propagated down?
<dsmythies> I do not know, and am not certain that is hasn't. I don't know what revision number to look for.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, I found the upstream bugs you sent me in an email:
<godbyk> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709951
<godbyk> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709943
<godbyk> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709941
<ubottu> Gnome bug 709951 in yelp-build "yelp build ignores conditionals when creating file copy list" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<ubottu> Gnome bug 709943 in DocBook "yelp-xsl/xslt/common/html.xsl missing a fundamental docbook tag conversion" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<ubottu> Gnome bug 709941 in yelp-build "html looks for yelp-code.png which is not there" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<GunnarHj> Robert Ancell seems to have updated yelp (ubuntu) with upstream news lately.
<godbyk> I'll take a look at those again.
<dsmythies> 709943 has a workaround.
<dsmythies> 709941 is not the end of the world.
<dsmythies> godbyk: If you could help woth communications with Shaun? He seems to help from the gnome side sometimes.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I'll get into it.
<dsmythies> Thanks.
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> ok, I think that's it for the blueprint topics, looks like we talked about the others during the vuds session
<pleia2> #topic What's new - should cover 12.04->14.04 (GunnarHj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: What's new - should cover 12.04->14.04 (GunnarHj)
<pleia2> GunnarHj: can you share some thoughts here?
<GunnarHj> I think that most people stick with LTS, so it would make sense that the "What's new" page covers everything since last LTS.
<godbyk> dsmythies: You can find a yelp-code.png file at /usr/share/yelp-xsl/icons/hicolor/watermarks/yelp-code.png provided by the yelp-xsl Ubuntu package. (Just FYI.)
<pleia2> GunnarHj: yeah, that makes sense
<GunnarHj> That's the whole point from my side. ;-)
<godbyk> We could split it into two sections, too. "Since [previous LTS]" and "Since [previous release]".
<pleia2> godbyk: yeah
<belkinsa> That works.
<GunnarHj> godbyk: +1
<dsmythies> godbyk: I know, but we don't actually want a watermakr at all.
<pleia2> #topic Sync with gnome-user-docs early
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sync with gnome-user-docs early
<knome> dsmythies, add an empty png
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, okay. I see what you're saying then.
<dsmythies> I did, last cycle.
<GunnarHj> Me again... I think we should do that sync as early as possible, so we then have sufficient time to review the result and finalize ubuntu-docs.
<godbyk> GunnarHj: +1
<dsmythies> +1
<godbyk> Last cycle we didn't even finish syncing. :-(
<GunnarHj> There is no reason to fear very much late GNOME changes anyway.
<belkinsa> GunnerHj: +1
<pleia2> hooray, consensus :)
<godbyk> GunnarHj: Especially since I think we may be lagging behind a GNOME release for 14.04.
<GunnarHj> godbyk: Precisely
<knome> no, Trustily
<pleia2> do we want to decide upon a date (or month) for this?
<pleia2> knome :P
<knome> ASAP = now?
<GunnarHj> knome: +1
<godbyk> Do you know which version of GNOME we're using for 14.04?
<godbyk> (Not that I expect it'll change things too much for us anyway...)
<GunnarHj> Mostly 3.8, but as regards gnome-control-center, which heavily affects the docs, 3.6.
<godbyk> GunnarHj: Okay, thanks.
<dsmythies> End of January target?
<godbyk> dsmythies: Seems reasonable.
<godbyk> Then we can start modifying everything that's Ubuntu-specific.
<pleia2> ok great
<pleia2> #topic Community Help Wiki (knome)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Help Wiki (knome)
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
<pleia2> ooh pretty :)
<knome> yep, i've worked on that for a replacement for the community help wiki
<belkinsa> It's cleaner for sure.
<GunnarHj> Indeed great work so far. :)
<knome> in addition, i've created https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources (WIP) for the purposes of replacing the signpost
<knome> all feedback is welcome.
<belkinsa> I think the Other Resources page is a better choice then that signpost, since it lists the links that people may be looking form
<belkinsa> for*.
<knome> it doesn't need to be an exhaustive list of all URLs in the internet
<knome> just some of the most used/useful ones
<belkinsa> I agree.
<knome> the people can find the useless ones without our help, believe me
<belkinsa> Enough for people to get started.
<pleia2> lol
<knome> and that's basically it
<pleia2> ok, thanks knome :)
<knome> this is not the agenda, but...
<knome> i'd like to become an admin in the community help wiki
<GunnarHj> Possibly we should try to find a *short* list of other resources that we recommend.
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> GunnarHj, yep, also https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ExternalGuides is linked from that page
<knome> so there is plenty of links
<belkinsa> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<knome> and tbh, how much else do we need than;
<pleia2> knome: right, I'll send a +1 to the list on that (I'm not a wiki admin, but there are precious few of them, so anything will help I think)
<GunnarHj> knome: Possibly too many of them...
<knome> askubuntu, ubuntu forums, mailing list, irc, manpages, guides
<knome> and flavor support links
<knome> GunnarHj, sure, i agree, but that's a content problem, and not the main area of my interest :)
<belkinsa> Those is enough, I think.
<knome> (don't get me wrong...)
<belkinsa> are*
<godbyk> I'm fairly ignorant of how the Ubuntu wiki is set up. What superpowers do wiki admins have?
<knome> GunnarHj, delete/move pages/attachments
<knome> godbyk, ^
<belkinsa> Renaming too
<knome> well doesn't that equal to move? :)
<GunnarHj> knome: To make a difference, we should point at resources with good quality. People know how to google anyway.
<belkinsa> Somewhat
<knome> GunnarHj, yep.
<knome> GunnarHj, same problem around the help wiki though; some of the content in there is not quality content either
<godbyk> knome: Ah, okay. Thanks.
<GunnarHj> knome: True.
<knome> from my pov, once we get https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources finished, we can drop https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh as the front page
<belkinsa> Yeah, developers just don't doc, they just develop.
<knome> and then we can keep on reviewing and enhancing it
<knome> slickymaster expressed his concerns of the topic list gettting too long
<knome> but i don't think i know the wiki enough to judge if there is something we could drop or not.
<belkinsa> Most of us don't have that skill.
<belkinsa> Technical skill, I mean.
<knome> i guess the right way to go forward is to keep on digging deeper in the wiki and clean up page by page.
 * pleia2 nods
<GunnarHj> I think we should encourage knome to keep on his work with front page and other resources. It will be a step in the right direction IMO.
<knome> what will ultimately tell us what's useful and what not
 * belkinsa nods
<godbyk> Can we get any statistics as to how many visits each wiki page gets?
<belkinsa> +1 on that idea
<godbyk> That'd help us focus our efforts there, I think.
<pleia2> we can ask IS
<knome> #action knome to finish OtherResources and then send an email to the -doc list to propose the new frontpage layout
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to finish OtherResources and then send an email to the -doc list to propose the new frontpage layout
<belkinsa> Also it could tell us how many are using the wiki also
<pleia2> I suppose I can submit a ticket to see about that (they LOVE me, I bug them all day long!)
<knome> same here
<knome> hey littlegirl
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to ask Canonical IS about getting help wiki stats
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to ask Canonical IS about getting help wiki stats
<pleia2> #topic Redundancy of Community Wiki and Other Forms of Support (belkinsa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Redundancy of Community Wiki and Other Forms of Support (belkinsa)
<pleia2> is there more to discuss here?
<godbyk> Or have we already covered this sufficiently on the mailing list?
<belkinsa> I think we may of covered it well on the mailing list.
<pleia2> ok, cool
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
 * belkinsa raises my hand
<pleia2> anything else to chat about at this time?
<belkinsa> I have one
<pleia2> belkinsa: go for it
<belkinsa> Do we think we need some form of blog posting to tell others in the community what the Doc Team is doing?  To get more folks in.
<pleia2> historically we've just done it via personal blogs that go to planet
<belkinsa> Even maybe getting developers to have some form of docs for the programs.
<godbyk> belkinsa: We could, but before we do, we should probably have a list of tasks that are ready for people to work on.
<belkinsa> Right.
<pleia2> I'm inclined to keep it that way now, the idea of adding another resource to update because we have too many resources to update ourselves makes me worried though
<belkinsa> Oh, right.  That issue.
<pleia2> hehe
<godbyk> :)
<belkinsa> Never mind then.
<GunnarHj> Any effort to make the developers at least think of the docs aspect is welcome.
<pleia2> oh, so we could send task announcements to our ubuntu-doc list and them submit them to the ubuntu-weekly-newsletter for inclusion
<pleia2> there is an "Other Community News" section they would fit nicely into :)
<belkinsa> Sure, that works.
<pleia2> yay
<belkinsa> I guess I was really looking for that.
<pleia2> perfect, thanks for the idea
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<knome> the real question is
<pleia2> does anyone read UWN? ;P
<knome> who would write an article to be sent to the newsletter and/or the planet
<pleia2> hah right, that
<belkinsa> I do.
 * godbyk nominates knome!
<pleia2> w00t
<knome> godbyk, no thanks at this point, but i might do that later. thanks for the nomination ;)
<belkinsa> But stats would be nice for UWN.
<godbyk> knome: It was worth a shot! ;-)
<knome> always.
<knome> i'll keep it in mind though
<knome> it's been a while since i've posted
<belkinsa> And the article idea is a good one too.
<pleia2> ok, anything else?
<pleia2> thanks everyone :)
<godbyk> Should we set up a poll for another meeting in January?
<pleia2> godbyk: yeah
<belkinsa> Not a problem and yes.
<dsmythies> no, nothing else from me. bye.
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to set up poll for january meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to set up poll for january meeting
<pleia2> happy holidays, all :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Dec  6 23:00:22 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-06-22.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-12-06-22.00.html
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<godbyk> Thanks for chairing, pleia2!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-01
<mdeslaur> \o
<chrisccoulson> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  1 16:45:34 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for xen
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place
<jdstrand> I have a shortish week in that I may not be around a lot on friday since I will be travelling that afternoon for a sprint
<jdstrand> I have some more click-reviewerws-tools updates (I did a bunch of them last week)
<jdstrand> and an embargoed issue
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently working on some glibc updates
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of embargoed issues to work on
<mdeslaur> and after that, I need to tackle some other packages on the list, which is growing again
<mdeslaur> hopefully, I'll manage to knock a lot of it down before everyone goes on holidaty
<mdeslaur> holiday
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm again focused on the pie-on-amd64 compiler stuff this week
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor patches to review and revise
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: how's that coming along?
<sbeattie> slowly, I got sidetracked on cboltz's apparmor patches
<sbeattie> but I'm pushing those aside for a bit.
<sbeattie> (the patches, not the compiler stuff)
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up the mutt update as well.
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> with the short week and a distraction from having to review and test a fix for an ecryptfs kernel fix last week, I'm a broken record
<tyhicks> working on moving the aa caching code to a library
<tyhicks> and bug #1362469
<ubottu> bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<tyhicks> however, I made good progress on the aa caching stuff
<tyhicks> I think I've got everything to the point where I can just move functions over to libapparmor now
<tyhicks> (all the api's are nice and clean, globals are pulled up, exits are gone, etc.)
<tyhicks> so that'll be my main focus so that I can get the patches out to the list
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jdstrand: did you want to give jj's status or should we skip to sarnold ?
<jdstrand> I'll give it
<jdstrand> jjohansen is working on AppArmor upstreaming and coordinating that work with the kernel team
<jdstrand> sarnold: you're up
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: nice :)
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: woo, nice!
<sarnold> I'm finishing up giving myself a quick education on macaroons for an internal team, looks neat, I'll try to review some of the apparmor patches that are (still) outstanding, and may pick up a security update this week
 * mdeslaur likes chocolate macaroons
<sarnold> mmmm
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> mozilla updates this week (today, actually. But I'm going to publish them tomorrow as usual)
<jdstrand> sarnold: there may be a MIR audit
<sarnold> jdstrand: nice, hooray for planning ahead :)
<chrisccoulson> in addition to that, I've got some work to do to make sure that mozilla's default search engine change won't affect our users
<chrisccoulson> other than that, I'll be carrying on with oxide work
<chrisccoulson> oh, and I need to plan some time off :)
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: please make the search bar search the dilbert archive by default, thanks
<chrisccoulson> lol
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/icecast2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/zodb.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/batmand.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tnftp.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/oftc-hybrid.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  1 17:08:50 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-01-16.45.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<rbasak> bdmurray: ping?
<ScottK> He sent his apologies.
<ScottK> (to the board)
<ScottK> Is it time?
<ScottK> So it is.
 * stgraber waves
<rbasak> Ah, thanks.
<ScottK> !dmb
<ubottu> The Developer Membership Board handles applications for new developer privileges. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess for more details. For DMB attention, try !dmb-ping.
<stgraber> sorry about that, was going through e-mails and didn't see the time...
<ScottK> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<ScottK> Laney and bdmurray have sent their apologies.
<ScottK> xnox: You're next on the list for chairing.
<stgraber> so we've got one vote for rbasak on the list and two of us around so far. We need one more DMB member to make that meeting useful.
<bdmurray> ScottK: I'm here, was just trying to expand on laney's email
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> bdmurray: Can you be here enough so we can get a quorum?
<bdmurray> ScottK: I'm not sure what you mean by here enough, but I'll be here for the whole meeting
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> bdmurray: I think I was mixing you and bdrung up.
<ScottK> Then you're chair, I believe.
<bdmurray> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  1 19:20:03 2014 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<bdmurray> Colin King was on the agenda still but I removed that as he was granted upload privileges
<bdmurray> What about "Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)
<ScottK> I think we decided that last time (yes).
<ScottK> Just needs writing up and doing.
<bdmurray> okay, I'll leave that there
<bdmurray> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: MOTU Applications
<bdmurray> Let's try to review Jackson's application today / tomorrow please.
<ScottK> Noted.
<Noskcaj> :)
<bdmurray> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<bdmurray> rbasak: Can you tell us a bit about yourelf and why you are applying for Core Dev?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> I'm a long time Ubuntu user. I started working full time for Canonical on Ubuntu server.
<Laney> (bdmurray: #action me to write it up please)
<rbasak> I was granted ubuntu-server-dev last year.
<Laney> (not really here, bye!)
<bdmurray> #action Laney to write up "Extend DD PPU to cover DM"
<meetingology> ACTION: Laney to write up "Extend DD PPU to cover DM"
<rbasak> One thing that holds us up quite a bit is waiting on SRU team or release team action. When we asked internally on what we could do to resolve this, it was suggested that we volunteer our time on the release and SRU teams.
<rbasak> By helping with the queue on non-server stuff, it was suggested that the queue would be emptier for others to look at our own server stuff.
 * bdrung arrives
<rbasak> I was nominated, but I'm not a core dev, and working in that direction would need me to be a core dev first.
<rbasak> There are also some packages I'd like to be able to upload, but cannot, for example bind.
<rbasak> (the DMB has refused bind for ubuntu-server-dev previously)
<stgraber> (to clarify, "nominated" here means that infinity, I and probably a few other folks thought that rbasak is the best candidate for that)
<ScottK> rbasak: Here's a question for you...  You're looking at the sponsor queue, and you see bug #583216.  What do you think you should do with it?
<ubottu> bug 583216 in postfix (Ubuntu) "inet_protocols can't be preseeded" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/583216
<rbasak> Good choice of bug! I looked at that while triaging earlier :)
<rbasak> I found I couldn't upload postfix so decided to defer any action until after this meeting, but I can talk about my thoughts on it.
<rbasak> First, I looked at the linked Debian bug.
<rbasak> On the surface (I haven't looked deeper at this stage) it looks like the bug is valid and the core of the patch is good.
<rbasak> I don't want to introduce an Ubuntu delta, particularly as postfix doesn't have one right now.
<rbasak> So I'd ask lamont first if he's around.
<ScottK> Wjat
<rbasak> Failing that, I think it's fair to introduce a delta in Ubuntu temporarily (especially as jessie is in freeze right now, but also because the bug has been in Debian with a patch long enough)
<ScottK> What're the chances of that getting fixed in Debian and sync'ed into Ubuntu right now?
<ScottK> Ah, you anticipated the question...
<rbasak> I noted a couple of minor issues in the debdiffs.
<rbasak> From memory, I think the version for the SRU wasn't right, and I think the changelog message could be improved.
<ScottK> OK.
<rbasak> I wouldn't hold up sponsoring on that basis - I'd try to ping the person to verify the change is OK with them, but failing that I'd just upload.
<ScottK> Postfix also has an MRE, but I haven't had time to update it.
<ScottK> OK.
<rbasak> (and be clear in the bug and in the changelog comment what I changed from the submitted debdiff)
<rbasak> THis all assumes that I'm happy with the patch - I haven't actually reviewed it in detail
<ScottK> Right.
<ScottK> How about the patch for Bug #1366104 shows up in the sponsor queue?
<ubottu> bug 1366104 in psycopg2 (Ubuntu) "[FFe] OperationError when large object greater than 2gb" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366104
<rbasak> I've seen this bug before, but let me just remind myself of it.
<ScottK> That's fine.
<rbasak> So to clarify your question, what's the timing of it hypothetically showing up in the sponsorship queue? Do you mean feature freeze as I think it did?
<rbasak> (...during feature freeze as I think it did?)
<ScottK> How about if it shows up now.
<ScottK> If it shows up during freeze, as the release team is the easy answer.
<ScottK> Now you have to decide if it's a reasonable thing to patch into our psycopg2.
<rbasak> OK, so I'll talk you through what I'm thinking. Please stop or direct me if I diverge too far from what you're asking.
<rbasak> My first thought is to where we are right now with psycopg2 in Vivid, whether this is fixed in an upstream release or not, and where Debian is up to.
<rbasak> I'll look that up now.
<rbasak> Looks like it's still in a feature branch.
<rbasak> What I don't like about this situation is that it's an API change. Pulling that into Ubuntu before an upstream release can get really ugly in terms of future API breakage if upstream end up releasing something slightly different.
<rbasak> I'd push for work upstream here. I'd be far more comfortable cherry-picking this into Ubuntu if upstream at least commit to their main development branch.
<rbasak> I'd explain this in the bug. I'd want at least an effort or explanation why this can't get landed upstream first.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> I think that's a very reasonable answer.
<ScottK> That's all for me.
<bdrung> I would have come to the same resolution
<rbasak> Nice to know :)
<bdrung> rbasak: back to bug #583216, how would your changelog entry look like? you said you would tweak it
<ubottu> bug 583216 in postfix (Ubuntu) "inet_protocols can't be preseeded" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/583216
<rbasak> bdrung: something like "d/postfix.postinst: correctly mark postfix/protocols debconf setting as changed so that it preseeds correctly (LP: #583216)."
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 583216 in postfix (Ubuntu) "inet_protocols can't be preseeded" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/583216
<rbasak> Assuming that I've understood the fix, and it is what I assume it to be (as I haven't actually reviewed it in detail).
<bdrung> i miss "closes: #671235" in there, but otherwise it's good
<rbasak> I wish there were a better way to note this correctly though. I don't want it to look like those are Seyeong's words in the changelog without his agreement, but I do want to attribute the work to him.
<rbasak> I've never considered closing Debian's bugs in Ubuntu's changelogs. I appreciate it when it's done the other way round by Debian maintainers though, so I guess it makes sense, thanks.
<stgraber> rbasak: do you know how to check if a given package is included in one of our published images (ubuntu or flavours)?
<bdrung> it makes sense to have a reference to the Debian bug. When you do the merge, you can easily check if the change was applied to the Debian package.
<ScottK> It's particularly useful for postfix since the Debian postfix maintainer has been known to just grab the Ubuntu postfix package and upload to Debian.
<rbasak> Yeah, it does sound useful, and I intend to do it now. I just hadn't ever considered it before.
<rbasak> stgraber: seeded-in-ubuntu.
<rbasak> I think it has a -b option for binaries too.
<stgraber> it does
<rbasak> I often look at germinate-output too.
<stgraber> that's slightly harder to read though ;)
<rbasak> And just search in there. Since I often want to know what is pulling it in.
<rbasak> It does get a little complex when multiple things pull things in though. I miss a tool that does a better analysis of it all.
<bdmurray> while we started a bit late we are running short on time
<stgraber> rbasak: can you tell me why ruby-arel is stuck in vivid-proposed?
 * rbasak looks
<rbasak> Looks like it makes a bunch of packages uninstallable.
<rbasak> rails3, etc.
<rbasak> Want me to go deeper?
<stgraber> nope, that's deep enough, thanks
<bdmurray> are there any other questions?
<ScottK> rails3 is completely removed in Debian (FYI), so there's a transition someone serverish ought to superintend.
<ScottK> Not from me.
<rbasak> That's probably my department then :)
<ScottK> Handy you're here.
<rbasak> I've not really done much work this cycle yet. Been away for sprints, vacation, etc.
 * ScottK did the last of the removals recently with his Debian FTP Team hat on.
<bdmurray> let's vote then
<bdmurray> #vote rbasak for core-dev
<meetingology> Please vote on: rbasak for core-dev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<ScottK> Laney registered a +1 offline.
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<stgraber> +1 (proxy for Laney)
<meetingology> +1 (proxy for Laney) received from stgraber
<bdmurray> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rbasak for core-dev
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> \o/
<rbasak> Thanks all.
<ScottK> Actually 5.
<ScottK> Congrats.
<bdmurray> Congratulations
<stgraber> rbasak: finally! :)
<rbasak> :)
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I was looking at the meeting schedule and believe a fair number of people will be off on December 29th.
<bdmurray> I was wondering if we should make the next meeting the 5th of January (3 weeks after the 15th) or the 12th of January (4 weeks).
<ScottK> I'm OK with either.
<bdmurray> I was leaning towards the 5th so its not as long of a gap.
<ScottK> Reasonable.
<stgraber> sounds fine
<bdrung> that's okay for me
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll put down the 5th. Thanks everyone.
<stgraber> I'll also be missing our next meeting (15th) as I'll be on a plane somewhere above the atlantic at the time
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  1 20:06:00 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-01-19.20.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-02
<gaughen> okay folks, it's ubuntu server mtg time
<gnuoy> o/
<beisner> o/  welcome back gaughen!
<gaughen> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  2 16:00:56 2014 UTC.  The chair is gaughen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gaughen> thanks beisner!
<Kick> o/
<gaughen> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<gaughen> matsubara to chase someone that can update release bugs report: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<coreycb> o/
<matsubara> hey there 0/
<gaughen> matsubara, that is the only action item listed
<matsubara> I didn't! Can you re-add the action item for me? I know who I need to ping about that just didn't get to it
<gaughen> sure, I shall leave it on the list
<matsubara> thanks!
<gaughen> #topic Vivid Development
<gaughen> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<gaughen> we've past feature definition freeze, next big milestone is Feb 19 - feature freeze
<gaughen> I hope everyone is looking at package merges and other hygiene tasks for the release
<gaughen> anything else worth noting on vivid?
<gaughen> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gaughen> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<gaughen> so I can't get to that link today, beisner can you?
<beisner> nope, that's the one we need to have checked out
<gaughen> aah, I didn't realize it was the actual link that was broke
<gaughen> thought it was the content
<gaughen> okay, moving on then
<gaughen> thanks beisner !
<beisner> bugs, what bugs?
<gaughen> #subtopic Blueprints
<gaughen> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<gaughen> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-server
<gaughen> last I looked our blueprints needed some serious love
<gaughen> I'd like to have them all prettied up over the next week or so
<gaughen> smoser, gnuoy coreycb zul and everyone else ---^
<zul> hi
<gnuoy> ack
<gaughen> zul, that was just a nag
<gaughen> so consider yourself nagged zul
<zul> gaughen: oh...continue on then
<gaughen> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<gaughen> caribou_, ?
<caribou> nothing much to mention
<caribou> aside from making my first encounter with systemd
<gaughen> caribou, and you survived?
<caribou> gaughen: apparently yes :)
<caribou> all good for me then
<zul> cool ubuntu server is perfect then
<gaughen> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<gaughen> psivaa_, anything?
<psivaa_> gaughen: nothing much
<psivaa_> :)
<gaughen> any interesting test results from the qa side for server?
<gaughen> or is everything green and wonderful psivaa_
<psivaa_> not green, but we dont have any new failures,
<gaughen> anything we should be worried about?
<psivaa_> i dont think so
<gaughen> okay then, moving along
<gaughen> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Nothing from here to bring up. Anything anybody thinks needing more attention from our side?
<smb> Anybody?
<smb> Mueller?
<gaughen> smb, I don't think so but I'm just back from vacation today
<arges> well you all know where to find us : )
<gaughen> okay, I shall move on then
<gaughen> we do
<gaughen> at the pub!
<smb> :)
<gaughen> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<gaughen> no planned events at this time.
<gaughen> well there is the mysql and variants sprint next week
<gaughen> and we talked a couple of weeks ago about having a virtual sprint around systemd
<gaughen> I need to chase slangasek down about that
<gaughen> moving on
<gaughen> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
 * beisner proposes new topic:  "rbasak is coredev!"
<gaughen> anything to discuss?
<gaughen> WHAT?
<gaughen> beisner, WHAT?
<beisner> to quote #ubuntu-meeting from yesterday:
<beisner> ...vote rbasak for core-dev
<beisner> ...Motion carried
<beisner> <rbasak> \o/
<smoser> horah!
<gaughen> WOOT WOOT WOOT!
<gaughen> about damn time.
<gaughen> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<coreycb> congrats rbasask!
<gaughen> next meeting is next week at this time. Kick is in charge.
<beisner> yes, congrats rbasak!
<gaughen> until then y'all.
<gaughen> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  2 16:13:52 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-02-16.00.moin.txt
<gaughen> rbasak isn't online right now to see our congrats
<gnuoy> tip top rbasak
<gaughen> hahaha, I love it gnuoy "tip top"
<Kick> thanks gaughen...
<gnuoy> There is no higher state
<gaughen> wow, good to know
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  2 17:00:12 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> \o
<bjf> \o
<henrix> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<arges> ;o/
<kamal> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The master-next branch of our Vivid kernel has been rebased to the
<ogasawara> v3.18-rc7 upstream kernel.  We have pushed uploads to our team's PPA
<ogasawara> for preliminary testing.  We have still withheld uploading to
<ogasawara> the archive while we iron out some final issues.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 18 - Vivid Alpha 1 (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (02-Dec):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 21-Nov through 13-Dec
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          21-Nov   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 23-Nov - 29-Nov   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 30-Nov - 13-Dec   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> Note: Utopic and LTS-Utopic kernels are being respun due to a verification
<bjf>       failure
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> o/
<jsalisbury> bjf, go
<bjf> i believe that Feb 5 is the 14.04.2 point release date
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> bjf, thanks
<bjf> nope, Feb 15
<bjf> sorry
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> Any other open discussions or questions?
<arges> keep up the good work
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  2 17:06:43 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-02-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<ogasawara> jsalisbury: I think bjf really meant Feb 5 for 14.04.2 point release date
<jsalisbury> ogasawara, ack.  thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-04
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> hi
<sil2100> o/
 * stgraber waves
<barry> \o
<jodh_> o/
<robru> hola
<cjwatson> hi
<infinity> Hi!
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 16:03:55 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> robru caribou infinity bdmurray cjwatson slangasek sil2100 jodh barry mvo doko stgraber
<slangasek> robru: tag!
<sil2100> robru won!
<robru> burp
<robru> gimme a sec
<slangasek> robru: should we come back to you?
<robru> no
<robru> * New CI Train Publish job
<robru>   - half as long as previous job
<robru>   - test coverage improved from 34% to 100% (bringing overall coverage up to 60%)
<robru>   - average function length down from 200 lines to 15 lines
<robru>   - average function arguments count down from 12 to 2
<robru>   - massive improvement in readability, maintainability, testability
<robru> * Fixed watch_ppa arch-watching regressions
<robru>   - now correctly only fails build if that build failure is an arch regression compared to what is built in the ubuntu archive
<robru> * various bug fixes and test improvements
<slangasek> ok
<robru> * small charm fixes to make citrain deployable again
<robru> ;-)
<robru> (done)
<caribou> Systemd : Get makedumpfile to work under systemd
<mvo> yay
<caribou> Makedumpfile : Backport kernel 3.16 support in version 1.5.3 for Jessie
<caribou> Get makedumpfile 1.5.3-2 to pass Debian freeze
<barry> robru: \o/
<slangasek> (fyi several of us have a conflicting meeting at half past, so we probably want to blast through this :)
<caribou> (done)
<infinity> - short week, due to illness
<infinity> - Kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> - debian-installer update for lts-utopic kernels
<infinity> - testing the above in several configurations
<infinity> - auditing powerpc utility packages in utopic for suitability for backport-as-SRU to trusty
<infinity> - general SRU/AA admin tasks
<infinity> (done)
<bdmurray> this covers the past two weeks (minus holidays) since I missed the last meeting
<bdmurray> created of a graphite graph for retracer time to retrace
<bdmurray> worked with webops to switch errors to using PS4 swift while dumping retracer backlog
<bdmurray> phone call meeting regarding retracers in scaling stack
<bdmurray> modified daisy to write duplicatesignature in oops cf for python tracebacks
<bdmurray> updated errors to use duplicate signature as SAS for linking back to the bucket
<bdmurray> modified daisy's retracer.py to write RetraceFailureReason et al to the OOPS CF (r585)
<bdmurray> had apport updated on the tracers
<bdmurray> wrote missing ddebs finder to only look at retracing failures
<bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1394798 (duplicate Contents.gz)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1394798 in Apport "Contents.gz files exist multiple times in sandboxes" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394798
<bdmurray> tested fix for apport bug 1394798 (Contents.gz) in canonistack
<bdmurray> researched bug LP: #1394919 (recoverable problem crashing on pids it can't read)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1377332 in cgmanager (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1394919 [TOPBLOCKER] UI randomly freezes" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377332
<bdmurray> reported daisy bug LP: #1396389 regarding backfill of duplicate signatures
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1396389 in Daisy "backfill duplicate signatures for python crashes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396389
<bdmurray> uploaded more packages (gnome-keyring, x11-utils, taglib, shadow, â¦) to get missing ddebs
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage
<bdmurray> created a test case for the trusty fix of bug 1313165 (update-manager-kde blacklist)
<ubottu> bug 1313165 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "removal blacklist matches update-manager-kde which is not critical anymore" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313165
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader for trusty-proposed fixing LP: #1313165
<bdmurray> added rls-v- reports to qa.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> oh it's me
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<slangasek> yah :)
<cjwatson> On vacation on Friday and Monday.  Rest of week almost entirely working on my maintenance backlog:
<cjwatson>  - Managed to kill ruby2.0 from vivid.  (Involved non-trivial work on ruby-libxml and ruby-patron.)
<cjwatson>  - Fought with the chain up to the protobuf merge (google-apputils-python, involving an MIR), got the libprotobuf9 transition going, and started coordination with ubuntu-phone.
<cjwatson>  - Switched out libusbx for libusb-1.0.
<cjwatson>  - Transitioned from libmusicbrainz5-0 to libmusicbrainz5-1.
<cjwatson>  - Rebuilt a load of stuff for libcfitsio2 (from libcfitsio3; don't ask, apparently).
<cjwatson>  - Shepherded the rails3 to rails transition through.
<cjwatson>  - Merged other things until my eyes bled.
<cjwatson>  - Generally trying to get process-removals output into a halfway decent state.
<cjwatson> Working on improvements to component-mismatches to sort its output by teams.  Somewhat stalled but I'll pick this up again.
<cjwatson> Miscellaneous reviews and internal discussions.
<cjwatson> Seven days left.  Get your requests in now!
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> slangasek: right back atcha
<slangasek> oh indeed!
<slangasek>  * first report in a while:
<slangasek>   * at the cloud sprint in Austin 2 weeks ago, good sync point with the CDO side of the company
<slangasek>   * discussions around migrating buildds, porter boxes into *Stack
<slangasek>   * Thanksgiving last week
<slangasek>  * still working on getting our open head count filled; some progress, we're in the paperwork/negotiation phase
<slangasek>  * rest of time taken up on embargoed projects
<slangasek>  * systemd virtual sprint postponed from first week of December, to January due to resources being reallocated to above embargoed projects
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> oh porter boxes too?  I missed that detail
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - CI Train maintanance:
<sil2100>   * Fixing random breakage here and there
<sil2100>   * Trying to cope with some smaller copy2distro breakage
<sil2100>   * Working on a rebuild-in-PPA build feature
<sil2100> - Patch pilot duty:
<sil2100>   * Clean up in LP bugs
<sil2100>   * Testing, cleaning and publishing new runit
<sil2100> - Tidying up bugs and landing-team tasks
<sil2100> - Appmenu-qt5 fix for FTBFS for Qt 5.4.0
<sil2100> - RTM readiness meetings
<sil2100> - Debates regarding the Gold Master image
<sil2100> - Help in understanding some of the promotion-blocking bugs
<sil2100> - Updates to the CI Train documentation
<sil2100> - Reviewing new ideas regarding Landing classes proposition
<sil2100> - Chasing down IS/webops regarding the recent CI Train incident
<sil2100> - More meetings related to the new CI Train database user interface from CI
<sil2100> - Some additional sick days at the start of this week
<sil2100> - Tasks related to making vivid promotion-ready
<sil2100> (done)
<jodh_> * Full time on an internal project
<slangasek> cjwatson: ah, did you not get included on that thread?  fwiw the thought is that since the porter boxes are abnormal wrt current IS practices, given that we're supposed to have all three supported arch families cloudified, the porter boxes should just become a charm in canonistack
<jodh_> â
<barry> short week due to usa thanksgiving
<barry> mostly working on internal project
<cjwatson> slangasek: did that include having the porter boxes be closer in behaviour (if not in exact implementation) to the one I outlined in https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=68468 ?
<barry> phone: testing udm fix for unconstrained path bug (yes it fixes it!)
<barry> other: python bug 22966 (py_compile foo.bar.py); LP: #1384859
<ubottu> bug 22966 in Ubuntu "Networking causes login delay" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/22966
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1384859 in Ubuntu system image "Use other machine-id files as alternatives to D-Bus file" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384859
<barry> -- done --
<mvo> did: lots of work on a internal project
<mvo> next: lots of work on a internal project
<mvo> (done)
<slangasek> cjwatson: given that we would own the charm and can determine its behavior, sure :)
<cjwatson> makes sense
<stgraber> is doko around?
<slangasek> cjwatson: basically, at that point anyone can have root on their own instance, so the porter box sudo magic becomes obsolete
<slangasek> doko: ?
<doko> - more GCC work, updating 4.8 and 4.9 branches, bug triage, uploads, testing 4.8
<doko>  and 4.9 with isl-0.14, snapshot build
<doko> - binutils update, binutils bug triage
<doko> - python3.4 upload, ensurepip update, forwarded ubuntu issues
<doko> - python2.7 prepared, working on open security issues upstream
<doko> - really need to spend some time on merges
<doko> - finally have my 100 MBit downstream, 12Mbit upstream cable working,
<slangasek> he is!
<doko>   now need to configure it for ipV6.
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> slangasek: right, that makes total sense given power/arm in canonistack
<stgraber>  - linuxcontainers.org:
<stgraber>     - Got our new website online at: https://linuxcontainers.org
<stgraber>     - Various CI infrastructure updates
<stgraber>  - lxd:
<stgraber>     - Been working on a few of the specs at:
<stgraber>       https://github.com/lxc/lxd/tree/master/specs
<stgraber>     - Bunch of bugfixes and code reviews.
<stgraber>  - lxc:
<stgraber>     - A lot of code reviews (large backlog).
<stgraber>     - Tagged LXC 1.1.0~alpha3 and uploaded to the archive.
<stgraber>     - Detailed our systemd support plan and worked on a few of the bits.
<stgraber>     - Went through the stable branch backlog, planning on tagging 1.0.7 today
<stgraber>       or tomorrow.
<stgraber>  - lxcfs:
<stgraber>     - Started poking at go-dbus and go-fuse to use them for lxcfs.
<stgraber>  - other:
<stgraber>     - Post-sprint admin tasks.
<stgraber>     - Preparation for next week's sprint in Cape Town.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Current tasks:
<stgraber>  - LXC systemd containers support:
<stgraber>    - Get lxcfs to a working stage
<stgraber>    - Implement new lxc.autodev design
<stgraber>    - Implement new init system detection code
<stgraber>  - Test stacking of read-only overlayfs on 3.18
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> I'll be out travelling tomorrow afternoon, Saturday and Sunday. Then sprinting
<stgraber> all of next week and flying again on Sunday and next Monday. Back to work on
<stgraber> the 16th. If you need something from me, talk to me today!
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> ok cool
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?  Christmas caroling?
<slangasek> complaints about the weather?
<slangasek> lightning talks about new things you're working on? :)
<caribou> "We wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas..;"
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 16:23:09 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-16.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> ok, thanks everyone :)
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks!
<caribou> thanks slangasek
<stgraber> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
<jodh_> thanks!
<dholbach> hello everybody
<dholbach> hang in there... we're sorting out things right now for the CC meeting
<jono> hi all
<dholbach> all right, there was a bit of confusion if we were going to do it as IRC or hangout
<jono> is the CC meeting happening now?
<pleia2> jono: yep, welcome
<dholbach> but it looks like we have a couple of folks who can't do hangout today
<jono> hi pleia2
<dholbach> so let's do IRC
<dholbach> hey jono
<mhall119> hey jono
<jono> sorry I am a few mins late, was taking the boy to school
<jono> hi dholbach!
<jono> hi mhall119!
<dholbach> #startmeeting CC Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 17:04:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> #chair mhall119 pleia2 YokoZar
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar dholbach mhall119 pleia2
<dholbach> #chair czajkowski
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2
<dholbach> let's get started then :)
<dholbach> On the agenda we have one item
<dholbach> #topic Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: Open discussion on community governance, concerns and proposals
<dholbach> Who wants to start? :)
<YokoZar> Good to see everyone
<jono> what is the goal of this meeting?
<jono> I know I raised a set of ideas and questions, but is this meeting designed to move towards some policy changes/adjustments?
<jono> hey YokoZar :-)
<pleia2> I think we should put together an etherpad of ideas out there, and start putting together some action items
<mhall119> jono: I think we're still in the process of clearly identifying the problems to be solved
<pleia2> whether they be "don't do this" or "do this, our next step is..."
<jono> hey sabdfl
<sabdfl> hello hello
<mhall119> hi sabdfl
<jono> pleia2, I think that sounds good, but to mhall119's point, it might be an idea for us to define the problems first
<jono> and whether we as a group feel there is a problem in the first place
<pleia2> sure
<jono> or whether some English guy is rambling off the point :-)
<jono> in my mind there is nothing wrong with the current way in which Ubuntu is led and governed
<jono> the problem I feel is missed opportunity
<YokoZar> There was a general sense of inertia in our governance process, correct?
<jono> I believe there are hundreds of people out there ready to be inspired and motivated to feel a sense of ownership in Ubuntu
<jono> YokoZar, I feel that is part of the problem
<jono> but not at the fault of CC members
<jono> just because we have been doing broadly the same thing for years
<mhall119> first off, I'd like to throw some data into the mix of gut feelings
<jono> mhall119, cool
<mhall119> LoCo team activities, measured by loco.u.c, spiked in the spring of 2011, and have been slowly declining since then
<mhall119> Summit attendees, as measured by summit.u.c registrations, also spiked in the spring of 2011, and held steady until the last in-person UDS in fall 2012
<mhall119> Both Ubuntu Members and Ubuntu Developers have been slowly but steadily increasing in numbers since 2009 (that's as far back as I could get reliable data)
<jono> mhall119, do you have data on how active those members and developers are?
<mhall119> jono: no
<pleia2> participation in governance itself has gone down since then, we struggle to even find enough candidates for our boards and councils, let alone enough to select a few out of a list
<jono> mhall119, I figured that is tough to measure
<pleia2> we've had to do re-calls for both LoCo and IRC Councils this fall
<jono> so it sounds like we agree there is a general decline
<mhall119> jono: yeah, it might be possible digging through the archives and changelogs, but it would be a big task
<pleia2> (or at least, re-calls for nominees are in the wors)
<sabdfl> let's step back a little bit
<sabdfl> here's a general proposition
<jono> mhall119, dholbach wrote a script for me once that mapped our developer activity, might be useful
<jono> (still giving dholbach graphing work to do :-) )
<sabdfl>  - something new that is timely and interesting will attract fresh participation
<sabdfl>  - over time any given initiative grows process, procedure and personality, so gets harder for new people to feel they can quickly get to a leadership role
<sabdfl> i think those two things are basically true
<jono> agreed
<sabdfl> so, this would lead me to think it's normal that a (static) proposition will age and sag a little bit
<sabdfl> the basic proposition of "come collaborate around the ubuntu archive to deliver debian packages on a cadence" is essentially unchanged in 10 years
<jono> yep
<mhall119> yes
<sabdfl> given that, i'm not surprised to see that it's harder to attract fresh eyes to what is easily considered both a solved problem and one where there are already lots of rules / leads / decisions taken
<sabdfl> now
<sabdfl> there's nothing WRONG with collaborating around an archive
<sabdfl> and it does continue to be super useful for all sorts of people
<sabdfl> Xubuntu, MATE, lots of others in addition to the core "ubuntu desktop" and "ubuntu in the cloud" crowds
<jono> I think at the heart of this is Stephen Covey's sphere of influence and circle of concern - it feels to me that the community feels their sphere of influence has shrunk to the point where they don't feel empowered to participate
<jono> when in reality, the sphere of influence is still very wide
<sabdfl> weeeeeelll
<sabdfl> i think it has more to do with a feeling of congestion
<jono> and I think we can focus on how much the community can lead
<sabdfl> "welcome! just don't play on the grass!"
<sabdfl> thing is we've already figured out where we want the paths and where we want the lawns
<jono> right
<sabdfl> and fresh young types feel that's a mountain to climb efore they get to Do Cool Stuff
<mhall119> there is a definitely feeling of unwelcomeness to contribute to some projects that Canonical leads
<sabdfl> mhall119, is there any suggestion that contribution is unwelcome?
<jono> I don't think participation is unwelcome, but it is impractical
<mhall119> sabdfl: no, but a very strict set of what is acceptable and what isn't
<sabdfl> examples?
<YokoZar> And I think there's an interesting question here about whether or not the project governance is a reasonable place to expect this leadership.
<YokoZar> Quite a few of us see our role as more getting out of the way and acting discretely (or at least quickly when we're gatekeepers)
<mhall119> it means you can't just contribute $COOL_NEW_FEATURE if it's not already been approved
<jono> most Open Source contributors want to feel an opportunity to influence direction and strategy, and with some Canonical projects that is unlikely
<jono> which, I think is the right decision for Ubuntu
<sabdfl> YokoZar, agreed, there's a difference between governance and leadership, and a healthy project needs the right kind and balance of both
<mhall119> sabdfl: Unity is the primary example in the past, but anything heavily design-driven seems less likely to gain community contributors
<sabdfl> it's unfortunate if people think the set of canonical projects == set of ubuntu projects
<sabdfl> because that would narrow the arena a lot
<mhall119> now, we found a way to improve that with Core Apps, which are both very design-drive and fully developed by community
<jono> sabdfl, maybe some clarity in which are which could help
<sabdfl> mhall119, i think that's an example of a place where the territory was fresh, there might be a strong design lead but there weren't lots of people saying "we've been doing it this way for 10 years"
<sabdfl> in other words, i think it's a good test of the idea that canonical's lead is not a blocker to participation
<OerHeks> Hi, just joined ahead of membership board meeting for 22:00 UTC, and see an interesting discussion going on
<sabdfl> it's more about creating fresh space where ideas can bubble up fast without having to go through a lot of "but we've already thought about that"
<mhall119> sabdfl: yes, I think we have a lot of fresh territority that we can take better advantage of inthe same way
<sabdfl> some of that territory is stuff that i think canonical will want to lead
<YokoZar> sabdfl: Regarding "contribution is unwelcome" -- there is the contributor's agreement, which has absolutely been a barrier (and blocker) for some.  Albeit only Canonical projects.
<sabdfl> but there is a LOT of stuff happening in open source that it's better to have others lead
<sabdfl> YokoZar, so saith the competition ;)
<jono> it feels to me that "I can't contribute because Canonical is in charge" is too often an excuse
<jono> and I feel that is the malaise we need to break
<sabdfl> it's a nice excuse! blame the corporation
<dholbach> I can see how some projects are harder and less attractive to get involved - if we just look at the phone right now - although the code is open, it's changing quite fast in a lot of places, with engineering teams and teams at the customers working very tightly together - some of the discussions happen in meetings somewhere, where it's harder to stay on top of what's happening
<jono> sabdfl, exactly
<jono> and, this may seem harsh, I feel it is an epidemic in our community
<sabdfl> dholbach, it's still by far the easiest way to actually participate in a real phone project
<YokoZar> More broadly though I would raise the question of whether distributions themselves are as interesting as they used to be.  We might just be part of a general trend of development moving towards other things
<jono> yes, Canonical does have leadership on some projects, but it is a small proportion of the wider Ubuntu commons
<sabdfl> jono, yes, i think it "became acceptable" and then "became normal" to blame canonical
<jono> agreed
<dholbach> sabdfl, absolutely - and I wasn't blaming anyone
<mhall119> there is some legitimacy though, if we only accept contributions if they're on the approved roadmap, and the community doesn't know what that roadmap is and wasn't involve in creating it, they don't know what they *can* contribute
<sabdfl> mhall119 's essay on the competitive sledging approach for poisoning projects is spot on
<jono> the difficult piece here is that I think we need our governance to help change this culture
<jono> Canonical members can't do this or it is seen as bias
<sabdfl> well, that's again the issue with governance and leadership
<sabdfl> to me, governance is about maintaining fairness
<jono> ahhh good point, I guess I am conflating governance and leadership
<mhall119> yes
<czajkowski> yes
<jono> but I think I am doing that because I feel our governance should have that leadership position
<sabdfl> so, let's talk about leadership
<YokoZar> yes
<czajkowski> and while similar not everyone neds to be in governance but anyone can get more involved  and lead :)
<popey> One thing Core Apps has done is make it more personal. It's not "Canonical" that impose restrictions on what you can do with Content-hub, it's "Ken", it's "Jamie" that you go for security.
<jono> sure
<sabdfl> two scenarios
<mhall119> jono: governments rarely lead
<popey> I realise this doesn't fully scale, but it makes a difference when you have people talking to people, and it isn't just seen as contributors blocked by The Man.
<sabdfl>  1. bright young person with brilliant idea steps up to convince folks to try something new
<sabdfl>  2. toxic person with agenda steps up to convince folks to take a particular approach
<sabdfl> both are, in effect, leadership
<sabdfl> and the interesting problem i think we have to consider is:
<sabdfl>  * how do we welcome leadership of what is a very valuable community
<sabdfl>  * while at the same time being willing to call BS on the toxic type, which WILL show up because it's a lot more fun to steer a lot of people to your agenda than start from scratch
<jono> I think the first step is clearly defining the parameters of where people can lead and influence
<sabdfl> i think it's a very interesting question indeed, and thanks jono for making us think about it
<jono> I think the malaise from the trolls has created an atmosphere of a restrictive environment, which is not true
<jono> which is why I suggested an impact constitution
<jono> thanks sabdfl, I care about our future
<jono> I think maybe the CC could help paint a clear picture of the many ways in which participation can happen
<mhall119> for the first one, I think we need a way to award (socially) the current leaders, and more importantly find replacements for them. Too often once we find a leader we run keep them in place until they burnout
<jono> mhall119, well, and some leaders are not really "leaders"
<jono> they are just "most interested in becoming leaders"
<highvoltage> that's a very important nail you're hitting right on the head there mhall119
<jono> but this is an age old problem all communities have
<sabdfl> succession is also interesting
<sabdfl> but let's focus on how we can ensure that ubuntu is a place where people can *start* things
<mhall119> so, since highvoltage is here I'll take him as an example, he and stgraber have been the only reason Edubuntu is still a think since *I* started getting involved in Ubuntu, there's nobody to take over for them if they have to step down
<jono> agreed
<jono> do we feel that painting a picture of the many places people can participate is a good step
<pleia2> jono: +1
<sabdfl> my view is things have their time, if there's no drive to continue them, it's best to accept that their time has passed
<highvoltage> No.
<jono> ...ok
<jono> highvoltage, no to what?
<pleia2> jono: a few weeks ago I believed we did this (with community.ubuntu.com), but discussions since on the mailing list made me realize that apparently it's not good enough
<jono> pleia2, I wonder whether that is because we need to condense the information into a short list
<highvoltage> jono: it doesn't necessarilly imply that their time has passed. some projects within ubuntu just get very little exposure to newcommers. if you visit a canonical page on community and how to get involved, it's *full* of whatever's important to canonical right now (typically phone / cloud stuff)
<jono> this is why I thought of the impact constitution, essentially 10 or 20 places where people can contribute - this could be easily shared on social media, in posters, and elsewhere
<highvoltage> jono: things outside of that scope tend to look boring by comparison, but it doesn't mean that they're not important.
<jono> as opposed to the larger website - c.u.c could just present more detail
<pleia2> jono: unfortunately I see it both ways, people wanting a "short list" and people saying there's not enough information, I don't know which way to go, or what will help (which is why it was nice to see some newcomers on the thread who could perhaps guide us to what would be useful)
<jono> highvoltage, I disagree
<sabdfl> highvoltage, it's a good idea to list more things there
<sabdfl> but
<jono> highvoltage, I think Canonical are just better at encouraging participation
<sabdfl> being on a list of things does not make one interesting
<sabdfl> say you are inspired by telephone
<jono> highvoltage, some things do just become stale and less interesting to people
<sabdfl> being active in places (forums, lists, discourse, etc) focused on THAT is a good way to attract people
<jono> and some things reduce in participation because there is no inspiration
<highvoltage> jono: indeed, ideally who care about the cause should ideally have more time to lobby (or do whatever) to get it listed there and get more exposure.
<dholbach> pleia2, yes, I think that's one of the things could try to improve - make it livelier, more inviting, better explain how you can have a chat with team members before starting a duplicated effort, but not to wait for somebody's approval to start doing something new, etc - making it more inviting, maybe have a couple of videos there would also help to convey how we work together (set the tone so to speak)
<jono> highvoltage, well, I think inspiration is the key - the greatest communities have people who help to translate the micro contribution to the macro impact
<sabdfl> highvoltage, i'd say the best way to get people into edubuntu is to be active in places where people who care about education hang out
<jono> boy, that sounded buzzword
<jono> sorry about that :-)
<pleia2> hehe
<sabdfl> but true , jono :)
<jono> :-)
<highvoltage> jono: no problem, I agree with both you and sabdfl on that
<pleia2> dholbach: yeah
<mhall119> so if somebody new comes along and says "How can I contribute?", those of us already contributing should be able to give an answer
<jono> so it sounds like we are identifying (1) clarity of places to contribute and (2) visibility of these places as key goals
<sabdfl> i think jono was driving at a deeper point, which is that free software continues to be a focus of innovation, but ubuntu hasn't been at the centre of those efforts
<mhall119> I like the idea of listing areas where people can contribute, but that should be a resource for us, not necessarily for new people
<sabdfl> there are some interesting examples, jono, that perhaps shed light on this
<sabdfl> one is docker
<jono> right
<mhall119> "go read this list" isn't a way to contribute, it's the community version of RTFM
<sabdfl> it's not an ubuntu project, but boy, is ubuntu the standard over there!
<sabdfl> for now at least :)
<sabdfl> it's an interesting question whether perhaps we failed to make room for someone to lead various parts of that IN ubuntu
<YokoZar> Docker is an interesting example actually
<sabdfl> but i think part of their story is in fact being cross-platform, and being IN ubuntu might have made that harder not easier
<YokoZar> Because maybe contributing docker containers is more interesting to people who 5 years ago might have been contributing to Ubuntu directly
<sabdfl> right
<jono> agreed
<sabdfl> though it's a little like contributing AMIs.... thanks for the giant unauditable blob!
<jono> well, there is innovation for Ubuntu and innovation that is on Ubuntu
<sabdfl> packaging is hard, but the hard work means:
<sabdfl>  * people know it's built from source
<sabdfl>  * it's easy to integrate with the rest of the system
<sabdfl> making a docker image is easy, and does neither of the above
<sabdfl> but being easy, it's taken off like crazy
<mhall119> sabdfl: perhaps Ubuntu itself is being shifted from being the ends to being the means to an end
<sabdfl> and ubuntu is at the middle of that though not lead from ubuntu
<sabdfl> yeah
<sabdfl> here's an even more interesting example
<sabdfl> anybody heard of ROS?
<mhall119> which one is that?
<dholbach> although the flow of the meeting feels a bit disrupted, I really like how everyone is bringing in ideas and problems related to the fields they're involved in - this is really great to see. maybe we could (after the meeting) try to use an etherpad to note down what we feel are common issues, or things we'd like to fix - no matter if it's a general fix or something in your area of involvement?
<sabdfl> :)
<YokoZar> Robot operating system
<YokoZar> Based on Ubuntu
<jono> the robot thing?
<sabdfl> yeah
<jono> I love that
<sabdfl> Open Source Robotics Foundation
<mhall119> is that why all the robotics videos show Ubuntu on screen?
<sabdfl> pretty much, i think, mhall119
<sabdfl> so, it's really interesting
<sabdfl> non-profit group that's basically making it easy for robotics researchers and developers to share stuff
<sabdfl> it's moving too fast for traditional packaging
<sabdfl> it's like github-for-robot-people
<sabdfl> but
<sabdfl> it's all based on ubuntu
<jono> this is precisely where I feel Ubuntu has the opportunity - becoming the go-to platform for people to build interesting technology
<sabdfl> it's like "install ubuntu then type this command to bring in the shared source before you work on your app"
<jono> right
<mhall119> jono: which gets back to Ubuntu being the means, not the end. People don't contribute to a hammer, but they can contribute with one
<sabdfl> the reason i think this example is interesting is because i think it's a counter to the "sky is falling in" view
<jono> mhall119, well, yes and no
<sabdfl> it's just that these projects are not at ubuntu.com/foo
<YokoZar> mhall119: a good problem to have in some sense.  There was a time when we couldn't hammer ;)
<jono> mhall119, a community could help Ubuntu to be the best platform for robotics
<sabdfl> how many developers have contributed click packages? 200?
<mhall119> YokoZar: I agree, I don't think it's a bad thing, it just means we need to change our focus
<jono> to create a sub-community that maintains packages, create docs, organizing online events and more
<mhall119> sabdfl: a little over, yes
<sabdfl> how many linux distributions have 200 active contributors?
<mhall119> interestingly we have almost as many click package developers as we have Ubuntu Developers
<sabdfl> indeed
<sabdfl> fresh territory, fresh space
<jono> mhall119, that is near
<jono> neat
<jono> so the technology is pretty much there
<sabdfl> also, fewer rules, fewer metadatas, fewer interlocks
<jono> we just need to reboot the fact that Ubuntu really is a commons
<sabdfl> in tech, almost everything else has gotten easier
<jono> and not the Canonical prison some people make it out to be
<sabdfl> it's easier to get a server today than 2004 (thanks cloud!)
<sabdfl> it's easier to sell an app than in 2004 (thanks app store!)
<sabdfl> it's easier to publish server side software (thanks paas!)
<sabdfl> but
<sabdfl> it's still damn hard to create a good debian package
<YokoZar> there's a reason so much engineering has been about avoiding packaging systems
<sabdfl> and while we measure participation much more broadly
<highvoltage> but it's drastically easier! (thanks dh 7?) (sorry couldn't resist)
<YokoZar> (even our own -- click packages are only barely debs)
<elfy> evening all - got in late - just caught up
<elfy> have a comment to make :)
<mhall119> welcome elfy
<sabdfl> the engine of that participation (advocacy, loco, docs, translation, etc etc) is always "here's a useful thing" made up of packages
<sabdfl> dive in elfy
<jono> hi elfy
<elfy> I've just read 45 minutes of people talking about how to contribute by coding - apart from one sentence from sabdfl
<sabdfl> phew
<jono> elfy, I don't think we all meant coding
<elfy> now I know that the majority of you do that - so that's going to be where you'll be looking
<elfy> jono: that's how it reads :)
<jono> I certainly didn't mean coding :-)
 * mhall119 has some anecdotes to bring up about designers
<jono> I meant BBQ
<jono> :-)
<elfy> lol
<elfy> don't I've not eaten since yesterday ;)
<elfy> mhall119: even design - similar to coding
<mhall119> not if you ask a designer (or coder) ;)
<elfy> so - from where I'm sitting - this discussion on how to contribute would already have turned me off
<elfy> while we ALL know that the support side is there for whoever - and wherever people can do so
<jono> elfy, I think we would all agree that participation is multi-disciplined
<elfy> and THAT is a low bar to *acceptable* contributions to *buntu - it gets forgotten every time :)
<jono> but the conclusions we are coming to here are (1) we have the technology (2) Ubuntu is just the end but the means too (3) we are seeing a general decline and (4) we should focus our efforts on helping people to see the wider Ubuntu commons and how they can participate
<elfy> so I'm mostly talking about getting into (4) then
<jono> I really do feel a key thing here is getting rid of the toxicity of "Canonical runs the show"
<jono> elfy, same here :-)
<mhall119> jono: I don't agree with (3), I don't think we have enough data to say there has been a "general" decline
<elfy> jono: agree with that :)
<jono> mhall119, observational data suggests we have lower participation
<elfy> mhall119: I see a general decline in the main areas I contribute
<highvoltage> jono: maybe I'm wrong for feeling that toxicity but often, and repeatedly, that has been my honest experience in ubuntu
<jono> highvoltage, well, I think we should be frank in where Canonical control does and doesn't exist
<jono> in my view, Canonical is leading the way in Mir, Unity, Juju as three key projects
<jono> but the archive is open
<jono> the app store is open
<jono> and *anyone* can help build new technology and do cool things
<jono> so while I agree that if you want to hack on Unity 8 you are going to really need to fit within an already defined roadmap, that is a tiny % of the overall Ubuntu commons
<Riddell> Canonical claims to control distribution of binary packages which is incorrect and very poisonous
<jono> Riddell, not true
<highvoltage> jono: I literally cried when there was an Ubuntu One session in 2009 and the session started by "We're going to get Ubuntu One into the installer and it's already been decided internally and there will be no further discussion on this." - so if that type of thing continues you have to acknowledge that Canonical calls the shots on some things and be open to that. I think it's unfair to call peop
<Riddell> yes it is
<highvoltage> le toxic who calls that out.
<pleia2> elfy: fwiw, I'm also interested in building up interest in our existing "non-exciting" and non-coding communities within ubuntu
<jono> Riddell, no, that discussion was about fairness
<mhall119> Riddell: it's a complicated topic that isn't the focus of discussion right now, can it wait until after we get through this?
<jono> fairness of how infrastructure and resources are utilized
<sabdfl> highvoltage, yes, we do call the shots on some things, and occasionally we get it wrong
<elfy> pleia2: ;)
<pleia2> even with cool robot projects, we need people to do manual QA on a variety of hardware... actually, this is PARTICULARLY needed with cool robot projects!
<sabdfl> this discussion is about how we make space for more leadership in new areas, not how we punish leadership
<jono> highvoltage, right, but that was a *long* time ago at the beginning of figuring out the company/community relationship
<jono> let it go, dude :-)
<Riddell> mhall119: it's hightly relevant if you're talking about why people might get off contributing to ubuntu
<sabdfl> if you want more leadership, you have to accept that people will make decisions and occasionally they will get them wrong
<jono> agreed
<jono> the Ubuntu history is not perfect
<YokoZar> highvoltage: Yeah, we've been atoning for that sin ever since as a project.  It's bad community and bad software development process.  And I believe we're unlikely to repeat it.
<jono> but we are human beings
<dholbach> pleia2, elfy: agreed :)
<mhall119> Riddell: we aren't talking currently about why people are getting off of contributing
<jono> and we need to stop harking on the past and focus on the future
<highvoltage> oh there are plenty of more recent examples of that. I chose that because it was the first time it stung so hard
<sabdfl> highvoltage, whoa, stop, i don't think your conclusions from that exercise are correct at all
<sabdfl> it looks increasingly likely that the future of EVERY major platform involves an on and offline identity
<sabdfl> every major platform
<sabdfl> people want to contribute to things that will be successful
<mhall119> so, using the Robot OS as an example, why can't they make that contribution within the Ubuntu project? (not necessarily within the archive, just within the community project)
<sabdfl> and you're upset that someone one once suggested that ubuntu should be in the lead, rather than meekly waiting for every other platform to validate an idea?
<sabdfl> nut
<sabdfl> s
<jono> I agree with sabdfl
<sabdfl> leadership is hard precisely because it involves going into territory that undefined or awkward
<jono> and in any case it was *five years ago*
<sabdfl> we cannot sit here and want to attract leaders while at the same time harping on cases where leadership itself was unpopular
<sabdfl> in that case, the goal was not even wrong
<jono> we have all learning and grown in give years
<jono> five
<highvoltage> telling the comm
<highvoltage> (sorry)
<sabdfl> if you want ubuntu to be limited to things you like, you're not going to be happy
<sabdfl> same goes for me, frankly
<highvoltage> The mistake there didn't have anything to do with Ubuntu One itself, imho the mistake was to say that a controversial decision in Ubuntu has been made internally, at Canonical, and that no firther discussion on it will be allowed.
<mhall119> it's fair to ask that everbody be allowed to participate in the discussion that leads to those choices though
<jono> highvoltage, that just isn't true
<sabdfl> mhall119, well, i suspect part of the ROS question is that they wanted to set up an institution, and instititions needs to lead things
<jono> there *was* discussion, there was discourse
<jono> but ultimately Canonical did make a decision
<sabdfl> i'm not upset that it's not under the auspices of the CC
<jono> and that is going to happen from time to time
<jono> this is how the relationship between companies and communities sometimes work
<mhall119> sabdfl: that doesn't necessarily exclude them from working within the project
<cp1> And speaking of hard, I think Ubuntu needs to do more about contributing to Debian.  Debian has some problems now and if Ubuntu had more leadership in the area of contributing back to Debian it could be win win for both!
<jono> but you are talking about a tiny fragment of Ubuntu
<highvoltage> jono: hey, I was there, and that was exactly what was said in the beginning of a UDS session, but hey, I don't want to harp on that specific issue either, it was just an example of how you can't say that it's toxic of people to say that canonical sometimes calls the shots
<sabdfl> highvoltage, if the people who are going to do the work have made a decision, that's binding, even if none of them work for canonical
<dholbach> I'm not sure we're going to get a lot more out of this meeting at this point. Can we set up an Etherpad in which we feed concrete ideas, plans and work items?
<sabdfl> highvoltage, this would be the very definition of harping
<highvoltage> jono: because the fact is that canonical does often call the shots within ubuntu, and as you said earlier, it's good to have that defined
<jono> highvoltage, this is an example of the problem
<sabdfl> leadership is precisely about making decisions
 * YokoZar has to go now -- thanks very much to everyone who showed up, and would like to discuss it further.
<pleia2> dholbach: yeah
<jono> we are trying to find new ways to inspire and motivate our community and you are derailing it with a conversation five years ago when we were all younger and stupider than we are now
<sabdfl> the reason people create splits and forks and sub-projects is *so they can make decisions*
<jono> we all made mistakes back then
<jono> the intentions were good, but the execution was not perfect
<mhall119> dholbach: http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion
<sabdfl> and if they can't do that inside a project (because it will be unpopular and their day will be full of shit) then they go do it somewhere else
<jono> but lets focus on the future instead of getting dragged back by the past
<pleia2> thanks mhall119
<dholbach> thanks a lot mhall119
<sabdfl> well, jono, i agree that occasionally a decision being taken is perceived as abrasive
<jono> lets crisply define where Canonical does lead, and then promote the vast array of places where the community can lead
<dholbach> I would suggest we all do a bit of homework and add our thoughts and things we'd be interested and willing to work on into http://pad.ubuntu.com/LeadershipAndGovernanceDiscussion
<sabdfl> but if you tolerate intolerance of decisions, you end up a mess
<sabdfl> i don't think we should accept a browbeating over decisiveness, for ANY leader in Ubuntu, canonical or otherwise
<jono> agreed
<sabdfl> or we'll not solve the core question at hand, which is how we encourage folks to do there leading HERE
<sabdfl> their, even
<jono> focus on previous discussions is good if we fail forward
<jono> but the blame game doesn't help anyone
<jono> I personally thought the focus on KDE4 wasn't wise, but I am not going to berate KDE leadership for it :-)
<sabdfl> if it's OK to piss on my leadership, or yours, or canonical's, then frankly nobody is going to want to be a leader in the project for something new
<jono> instead it is better for us to work together to pull away conclusions for how we can do better
<elfy> sabdfl: absolutely
<Riddell> jono: what focus on KDE4?
<jono> Riddell, we can discuss this later, it is off topic
<dholbach> I'll drop an email to ubuntu-community-team@ with the logs to the meeting and the etherpad.
<elfy> dholbach: thanks
<dholbach> It'd be good if we could revisit the notes afterwards again and see who wants to team up on tackling some of the things mentioned.
<mhall119> thanks dholbach
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<jono> thanks everyone, I better run
<dholbach> All right... is there any other business anyone wanted to bring up?
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<highvoltage> wasn't the EC catchup scheduled for tonight?
<Riddell> dholbach: an update on the status of the claims over binary files would be appreciated
<mhall119> everybody please feel free to contibute to the Etherpad or further discussion on the mailing list
<mhall119> Riddell: we are still inquiring after that
 * balloons just walks in
<dholbach> balloons, too late :)
<balloons> dholbach, I noticed.. what a discussion!
<elfy> highvoltage: it was - I mailed both Edubuntu and Lubuntu postponing on the 20th November
<balloons> I'll take to the pad
<highvoltage> elfy: ah sorry, I missed that. all good then.
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone
<dholbach> mail sent: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2014-December/000213.html
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 18:09:02 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-17.04.moin.txt
<elfy> highvoltage: moved to the April some time
<mhall119> thanks everybody for all of the thoughts and feedback
<mhall119> please help us boil this down into things we can implement
<elfy> thanks everyone
<highvoltage> yes thanks, I hope that jono and sabdfl can see that my comments are meant to be constructive, I don't mean to attack or anything like that.
<mhall119> jono: can you flesh out what an Impact Constitution would define on the Etherpad (line 21 currently)
 * mhall119 enjoys being able to ask jono to flesh things out for a change
<popey> highvoltage: might have been more constructive if you'd had an example from this decade ã
<jono> mhall119, LOL
<jono> will do
<jono> thanks, all
<jono> highvoltage, :-)
<sabdfl> cheerio all
<highvoltage> popey: noted, I'll stick to this decade for future references
 * popey hugs highvoltage 
<Riddell> highvoltage, popey: where was this?
<highvoltage> popey: it was from like, 5 years after I joined Ubuntu, on my timeline it doesn't feel like ancient history, but I acknowledge that it wasn't quite recent and won't bring it up again
<popey> Riddell: I was making light of a heavyweight discussion earlier.
<popey> highvoltage: I'm not trying to shut you up, it was just a joke :)(
<highvoltage> popey: ah ok :)
<jono> typical Canonical staff shutting us community members down
<popey>  /kick jono
<jono> :-)
<highvoltage> In all honesty, I think you guys are doing a great job, but some of the problems, like the innovational problems mentioned tonight, happen exactly because of some problems that seem to be in your blind spot (or refuse to acknlowledge), but I'd rather send an email in private about that than disucss it on IRC, where every single line is just way far too open to be interpreted the wrong way
<pleia2> thanks highvoltage
<benonsoftware>  /e
<benonsoftware> Oops, sorry
<belkinsa> OerHeks, are you ready for the meeting in 30 minutes for your Membership?
<OerHeks> Hi belkinsa yes i am.
<belkinsa> Perfect.  I hope we have enough Board Members for this one.
<Cugel> Hello, people.
<belkinsa> o/ Cugel.
<Fermata> People of Ubuntu o/
<OerHeks> Hi Cugel & Fermata
<hggdh> !rmb -- meeting in 13 minutes
<ubottu> hggdh: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<hggdh> bloody hell
<belkinsa> !rmb
<ubottu> rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<belkinsa> Guys, meeting is in 13 minutes!
<hggdh> heh
<belkinsa> !cc
<belkinsa> WTF, no CC factiod?
<hggdh> hah, so much for consistency ;-)
<pleia2> belkinsa: tsk, language
<pleia2> what do you need?
<belkinsa> Sorry.  We may need you guys for the 22 UTC Memberboard meeting
<hggdh> pleia2: it seems we will need backing up for the RMB meeting in a few
<belkinsa> Membership Board*
<pleia2> ah sure, I'm around
<belkinsa> We need two more, right?
<hggdh> one more
<belkinsa> Oh, duh.
<belkinsa> I will chair.
<hggdh> four is the minimum quorum
<hggdh> k
<hggdh> (and thank you ;-)
<pleia2> if no one shows up in 10 minutes, I'll msg some other CC members
<belkinsa> Okay, thank you, pleia2.
<belkinsa> OerHeks is here but  OscarPrieto is not.
<belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards#A22:00
<belkinsa> !rmb
<ubottu> rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<belkinsa> Meeting in 5 minutes.
<belkinsa> Well, that factiod needs to be updated.
 * popey waves
<czajkowski> aloha
<belkinsa> Thanks, popey for coming.
<czajkowski> I'm here if you need numbers
<belkinsa> Okay, we have five now.  Three Membership Board members and two CC ones.
<belkinsa> oscarprieto, are you ready for the Membershio Board meeting?
<OerHeks> Hi glad you made it oscarprieto
<belkinsa> And if there is anyone for these two (as in for cheering on), you are welcome to the meeting.
<oscarprieto> Yes.
<belkinsa> Perfect, we will start in 2 minutes.
<oscarprieto> Excelent
<oscarprieto> I change mi nick
<belkinsa> Okay, starting now...
<belkinsa> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  4 21:59:41 2014 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<belkinsa> #voters belkinsa pleia2 czajkowski popey hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey
<belkinsa> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
 * czajkowski waves hi and welcome :) 
<popey> yo yo
<belkinsa> Hello and welcome to the 22 UTC Membership Board meeting on this fine Thursday.
<belkinsa> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<ofprieto> belkinsa:  this is my nick official
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<belkinsa> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<belkinsa> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<belkinsa>  During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<belkinsa> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<belkinsa> #subtopic OerHeks
<belkinsa> Are you ready, OerHeks?
<OerHeks> Yes belkinsa
<belkinsa> Please introduce yourself to the board.
<OerHeks> Goodevening all, My name is OerHeks, 47 years old, from The Netherlands and an ubuntu user for 5 years now.
<OerHeks> I am a fulll opensource user, and i would like to share my experience and knowledge with anyone who needs it.
<popey> hi OerHeks
<OerHeks> Therefore i am daily reading, learning and helping othere users mostly on IRC channels with questions and problems.
<belkinsa> OerHeks, may we have your Launchpad and wiki page link?
<belkinsa> #voters PabloRubianes
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes belkinsa czajkowski hggdh pleia2 popey
 * Ingforigua greetings
<popey> OerHeks: what a lovely set of endorsements you have on your wiki page.
<OerHeks> I am a member of the Mwanzo team too, the team that is made to help learning and get around in the ubuntu community. my launchpad url is https://launchpad.net/~oerheks
<pleia2> belkinsa: you have RMB quorum, I'll step out :)
<belkinsa> pleia2, alright
<OerHeks> And here is my personal wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/oerheks
 * trijntje_ is here to support OerHeks 
<Fermata> Stefan de Vries hier, waving for OerHeks \o/ \o/
<popey> what does Mwanzo mean?
<popey> thanks trijntje_
<popey> Fermata: thanks also!
<belkinsa> Does the supporters have anything to say about him?
<OerHeks> Mwanzo is Swahili for Begin.
<popey> Oh nice.
<popey> What does the team do exactly? Got examples?
<OerHeks> We have a Dutch written page, maybe your browser has a translation feature > http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/mwanzo/
<popey> thanks
<czajkowski> OerHeks: lovely comments on your wiki page
<czajkowski> nice work
<Fermata> He is the most visible person in #ubuntu-nl channels.  Helping and making people's experience better.  A true gem.
<czajkowski> that's a loverly thing to hear about your team mates
<trijntje_> like I wrote in my testimonial on the wiki (redmar), he's always around on irc to help, and is very knowledgeable about hardware
<popey> Yeah, I have no other questions.
<genii> I also would like to put in a good work for OerHeks
<czajkowski> OerHeks: sounds like you're really a great champion for your community
<OerHeks> We are providing workshops, not that much at the moment, have an own askubuntu , http://vraag.ubuntu-nl.org/ and help peaple howto contribute to ubuntu/ubuntu-nl
<czajkowski> it's lovely to read about these things thank you
<czajkowski> for your work in the comunity and for being involved
<belkinsa> Does anyone have anymore questions?   Or are we ready to vote?
<hggdh> I am ready
<czajkowski> none here
<czajkowski> thanks
<belkinsa> #vote OerHeks's Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: OerHeks's Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<belkinsa> +1 Awesome work, keep it up!
<meetingology> +1 Awesome work, keep it up! received from belkinsa
<czajkowski> +1 well done thank you!
<meetingology> +1 well done thank you! received from czajkowski
<belkinsa> Should we wait for PabloRubianes?
<PabloRubianes> +!
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<popey> \o/
<popey> Congratulations OerHeks !
<hggdh> there you go :-)
<OerHeks> Thank you !
<belkinsa> #voteendeed
<belkinsa> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: OerHeks's Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<PabloRubianes> congrats OerHeks
<popey> Thanks for coming Fermata trijntje_ !
<Ingforigua> nice OerHeks :)
<belkinsa> \o/, OerHeks!
<SergioMeneses> congrats OerHeks
 * trijntje_ cheers
<Fermata> Congratulations, Oerheks!
<Fermata> \o/
<ofprieto> congrats OerHeks!
<hggdh> OerHeks: congrats, and thank you for your work
<belkinsa> #subtopic ofprieto
<Fermata> And good luck, ofprieto.
<belkinsa> ofprieto, are you ready?
<ofprieto> yes, I am
<SergioMeneses> go for it ofprieto
<ofprieto> let me introduce myself
<ofprieto> Good afternoon, I am Oscar Prieto, I am from BogotÃ¡, Colombia. I am student of Systems engineering, but I am also a technician in supports systems. I am part of Ubuntu community for more than 4 years. I help with events, diffusion, support, and some translations. Right now I am member of the Ubuntu Colombia LoCo council. Here is my Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp.prieto And here is my Launchpad: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ofp
<ofprieto> I have been working a lot in Ubuntu, you can see more information in my Wiki page.
<popey> hi ofprieto
<popey> You have nice teeth!
<ofprieto> lol
<hggdh> heh
<belkinsa> lol
<ofprieto> popey: and a big mouth jeje
<Ingforigua> :P
<popey> :D
<belkinsa> Does anyone have questions for him or any comments?
<popey> just reading...
<popey> ofprieto: what do you do on SFD?
<popey> (assume I have ignored your wiki page about it)
<belkinsa> And what is your role in NetWorkBogota?
<ofprieto> I had supported Ubuntu Stand, and help Ubuntu installations in that event
<popey> Did you get much interest from the public?
<SergioMeneses> belkinsa: ofprieto is the stand guy! :D
<ofprieto> belkinsa:  Actually I have a node, and I am participating in the developer team of this idea, I supprot also the social media of this project.
<Ingforigua> and one conference called ... i dont remember :P ofprieto
<belkinsa> ofprieto, I see.
<Ingforigua> network bogota is a free network as guifinet
<ofprieto> belkinsa: NetWorkBogota is a project that had begun in Agust this year!
<belkinsa> I se.e
<mhall119> ofprieto: I see you're on the ubuntu-co council, what does that entail and how have you found the experience?
<popey> SergioMeneses: you here to support ofprieto ?
<hggdh> SergioMeneses: cheers, BTW
<SergioMeneses> @popey yes sir! :)
<meetingology> SergioMeneses: Error: "popey" is not a valid command.
<SergioMeneses> hi hggdh
<hggdh> oh boy, "popey" is not a valid command...
<ofprieto> The Ubuntu-co council has been an excellent experiencie, we are working in our meeting for close the year, and I am leadering this activity
<popey> hggdh: file a bug â»
<SergioMeneses> ofprieto: is an amazing guy, he works a lot with our community and I hope he work on the international community very soon with some project
<hggdh> ofprieto: perfect, and thank you for your community work
<popey> Thank you SergioMeneses
<popey> I have no more questions
<SergioMeneses> you're welcome guys!
<ofprieto> mhall119: talking about social media, I am supporting this team of our community
<mhall119> SergioMeneses: we had to remove the @popey command, it would randomly shut down mailinglists
<belkinsa> lol
<SergioMeneses> mhall119: o0
<belkinsa> #vote ofprieto's Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: ofprieto's Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<PabloRubianes> +1 buen trabajo!
<belkinsa> +1 Keep up the great work!
<meetingology> +1 Keep up the great work! received from belkinsa
<meetingology> +1 buen trabajo! received from PabloRubianes
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<belkinsa> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: ofprieto's Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<popey> \o/
<belkinsa> \o/
<popey> Congratulations ofprieto !
<Ingforigua> ofprieto: congrats some beers and b... :P
<mhall119> congrats ofprieto
<hggdh> ofprieto: bienvenido a la comunitat Ubuntu (and sorry for having butchered your language)
<popey> I look forward to hearing about SFW 2015 in Colombia!
<SergioMeneses> congrats ofprieto !
<SergioMeneses> popey indeed!
<belkinsa> Thank you all for coming to this meeting.
<trijntje_> Congratulations ofprieto
<PabloRubianes> felicitaciones ofprieto
 * belkinsa passes out beer and cookies
<Fermata> Congratulations, ofprieto!
<belkinsa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  4 22:24:20 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-12-04-21.59.moin.txt
<Ingforigua> popey: you should come to colombia, you are welcome here :P a lot of beer and bi...
<OerHeks> Thank you all, congrats ofprieto , we are on the list > https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
<trijntje_> Cheers, have a nice evening everybody
<ofprieto>  I am very happy, thank you so much.
<Cugel> Thanks all for getting these new members in.
<Ingforigua> OerHeks: ofprieto beer for both :P
<Cugel> Drinks for all.
<popey> Ingforigua: I would _love_ to go to Colombia!
<OerHeks> Cheers, bottoms up!
<SergioMeneses> see you later guys! glad to see you, as always! :D
<ofprieto> we are working for 2015 SFD, popey hope you come to Colombia!
<Ingforigua> popey: greetings for colombia "Nos vemos parceros"
<OerHeks> Have fun!
<ofprieto> thanks so much team!!! Ingforigua linaporras Sergiomeneses
<ofprieto> by all
<Ingforigua> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-07
<elfy> there's an FC meeting due about now - we've nothing to discuss, but if anyone is about and wants to ask us something we'll be floating about for a while
<bapoumba> .o/
<howefield> thanks elfy
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-30
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<chrisccoulson> o/
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 30 16:31:19 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Stefan Bader (smb) provided a debdiff for precise for xen
<tyhicks> Andreas Cadhalpun provided a debdiff for wily for ffmpeg
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: since you'll be in and out, let us know when you're "in"
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: go ahead
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I have a gnutls26 update to test and push out
<mdeslaur> and I'm trying to reproduce an nss issue in xenial
<mdeslaur> to do that, I'm trying to fix uvt to work properly with xenial
<mdeslaur> and after that, I may work on some sudo updates that rebase xenial's version for older releases to finally fix the clock issue
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it...sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week.
<sbeattie> On the pie gcc front, I'm hip deep in kernel build process stuff, trying to figure out all the locations where to disable it.
<sbeattie> I have an openjdk-6 update to test and push out, along with another package
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: I saw a gcc-5 upload with some peculiar changelog entries...did it get enabled?
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: oh, I'm pulling the latest upload down right now, I haven't looked at the changelog.
<sbeattie> do ko sent me an email asking about stuff.
<tyhicks>   * Add --enable-default-pie option to GCC configure, taken from the trunk.
<sbeattie> ah, woot!
<tyhicks> nice :)
<mdeslaur> does that mean it's on, or just that the option is added?
<mdeslaur> because that's in the debian changelog part
<mdeslaur> then there's "* Configure with --enable-default-pie on s390x."
<sbeattie> yeah, it looks like it just got turned on for s390x. interesting
<jjohansen> no chance for regressions there
<sbeattie> anyway, I'll still need to deal with fallout from that, so, along with a shortish week (friday off), that + usual email and kernel triage will probably consume my week
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm on cve triage
<tyhicks> I need to send off my findings from my mapplauncherd review as well as the code and profile generation bits for confining the generic booster process
<jdstrand> I'm in
<tyhicks> jdstrand: go ahead
<jdstrand> ok, I'm catching up from holiday
<jdstrand> preparing for a sprint next week
<jdstrand> have an embargoed item
<jdstrand> and finishing up some policy work on touch and snappy that I started before the holiday
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> I also need to do snappy sprint prep
<tyhicks> I have a review to do for the snapd socket access checks so that non-root processes can connect
<tyhicks> and I'm still trying to get to unprivileged AppArmor policy loads inside of a user namespace
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> so I am primarily working on apparmor stacking this week
<jjohansen> I have some ml followup to do, and some bug follow-up that could eat some time depending on testing
<jjohansen> primarily bug 1446906, that I am following
<ubottu> bug 1446906 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc container with postfix, permission denied on mailq" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1446906
<tyhicks> jjohansen: could you send that fix to sarnold and myself for review?
<jjohansen> the kt also has an apparmor related bug in 4.3 that they are looking at, they think it might be test related
<sarnold> is that the caching timestamp bug?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: yeah, I want to clean it up a bit first, but I will send it out. Note that its on top of the larger 25 patch series
<tyhicks> ok
<jjohansen> sarnold: no, it is to due with mediation of a file based unix domain socket that has been shutdown
<sarnold> jjohansen: heh, sorry, I meant the one the KT reported that they think is test relatede
<jjohansen> sarnold: not sure, I have just seen the mention of it and that brad is looking into it
<jjohansen> so its on my radar but I don't have details yet
<jjohansen> oh, I should also get ahead of the curve and do the 4.4 rebase, and point tim and and andy at it
<sarnold> aha. I took a quick look at what they were talking about last week, and I couldn't figure out how on earth that test goes wrong. it feels like it'd be worth taking apparmor out of the equation on that one and try to write a reproduer that does't rely upon upstart ..
<jjohansen> oh fun, looks like sarnold has volunteered to take that one off my hands :)
<tyhicks> jjohansen: ISTR you and Tim talking at the sprint about how the 4.4 rebase required no changes from the 4.3 rebase so Tim was just going to handle it himself?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: that was the 4.3 rebase at the sprint, I haven't looked at 4.4 at all
<tyhicks> ah
<jjohansen> though I expect it is similar
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> i'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> I'd like to take a short week this week (thinking friday off)
<sarnold> i will finish the libmicrohttpd mir, will start (and probably finish) the dpdk mir, catch up from holiday email, and hopefully review an apparmor patch or two
<sarnold> tyhicks feels like he's drowning this week, so perhaps steal a day of cve triage
<tyhicks> :)
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<tyhicks> I'll let you know
<tyhicks> thanks
<chrisccoulson> So, last week I got the camera working in the browser on the phone. I'm still ironing out some bugs with that (orientation is still messed up, and I'm seeing the device reset frequently as well)
<sarnold> woo :)
<chrisccoulson> I also need to get someone to review my changes to libhybris, but I'm not sure who's responsible for that now
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I plan to tackle the stuff I wanted to do last week but never got around to :) (bug 1447345), as well as the usual code review stuff
<ubottu> bug 1447345 in Oxide "Support the unprivileged namespace sandbox" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447345
<chrisccoulson> (short week too - I'm out on wednesday)
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: nice to hear that the camera work is progressing :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pngcrush.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/wv2.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libxml-dt-perl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dimp1.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xcfa.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 30 16:59:35 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-30-16.31.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<jjohansen> ;)
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks :)
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-01
<kickinz1> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  1 16:00:09 2015 UTC.  The chair is kickinz1. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<kickinz1> o/
<kickinz1>  Hi everybody!
<caribou> \o
<jgrimm> o/
<coreycb> o/
<kickinz1> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<kickinz1> rbasak to find kickinz1 a merge to do. rbasak has suggested exim4. Agreed?
<kickinz1> we agreed on this.
<kickinz1> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<kickinz1> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> o/
<kickinz1> So wa have past  FeatureDefinitionFreeze and are heading toward Alpha1
<kickinz1> #subtopic Release Bugs
<kickinz1> regarding bugs, we have 4 unassigned bugs:
<kickinz1> bug 1514731
<kickinz1> bug 1510108
<kickinz1> bug 1516085
<ubottu> bug 1514731 in neutron (Ubuntu Xenial) "OpenStack Installation Guide for Ubuntu in Installation Guide Executable not found: conntrack (filter match = conntrack)" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514731
<kickinz1> bug 1510345
<ubottu> bug 1510108 in lxc (Ubuntu Xenial) "pre-installed lxc in cloud-image means loss of access to 10.0.X.0/24" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510108
<ubottu> bug 1516085 in Cinder mitaka "quotas calls fail when CONF.keymgr.encryption_auth_url is not configured" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516085
<ubottu> bug 1510345 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] Cloud Images do not bring up networking w/ certain virtual NICs due to device naming rules" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510345
<kickinz1> Anything to say regarding those?
<kickinz1> Going forward.
<kickinz1> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<kickinz1> caribou, anything to say?
<caribou> working on rsyslog merge, liblinear transition
<caribou> other than that I'm good
<kickinz1> caribou, thanks
<kickinz1> Anything to ask caribou for?
<kickinz1> I forgot assigned bug work
<kickinz1> #topic Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
<kickinz1> Anything to discuss here?
<rbasak> Nothing from me this week, thanks. I'm still catching up from having been away. If everyone can work on assigned merges and things, then that would be great for me.
<rbasak> (thanks to cpaelzer for his nis merge)
<kickinz1> rbasak, thanks.
<kickinz1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> kickinz1, Hi, curtin tests are now running automatically whenever there's a new merge proposal against lp:curtin
<matsubara> other than that, nothing else to report.
<kickinz1> matsubara, thanks, any question for matsubara ?
<kickinz1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<kickinz1> Sorry...
<kickinz1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> nothing from here. anything from there? (oh maybe not kernel but me working on xen merge and arges on libvirt)
<kickinz1> thanks smb
<kickinz1> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<kickinz1> Anything new or closing soon we must be part of?
<kickinz1> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<kickinz1> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<kickinz1> Anything to share/discuss with the team?
<kickinz1> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<kickinz1> Next meeting will happen th 8th of december, same channel same time (1600 UTC), chair will be smoser.
<kickinz1> Bye, and thanks for attending this session.
<kickinz1> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  1 16:23:24 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-01-16.00.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-03
 * Na3iL slaps Na3iL around a bit with a large fishbot
 * pitti waves
<sil2100> o/
 * xnox o/
<caribou> o/
<barry_> \o
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 16:01:09 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<chiluk> o/
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> barry infinity sil2100 doko cyphermox tdaitx pitti xnox robru slangasek caribou chiluk bdmurray
<barry_> \o/
<barry_> short week due to usa holiday
<barry_> LP: #1519890; LP: #1520568; python issue 25698 (mysterious cpickle test regressions); debian bug #806824; debian bug #806826 and LP: #1518150; pyyaml 3.11-3; pip 7.1.2 (unsuccessfully unfutzing git repo & gbp issues); returning to dirtbike (rewheel)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1519890 in xapian1.3-core (Ubuntu) "[MIR] xapian1.3-core" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1519890
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1520568 in nss (Ubuntu) "All queries fails when 'google' is used: ERR_SSL_PROTOCOL_ERROR" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1520568
<ubottu> Debian bug 806824 in src:libpeas "libpeas: Split Python 2 and 3 support" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/806824
<ubottu> Debian bug 806826 in src:pyyaml "pyyaml does not support literals in unicode over codepoint 0xffff" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/806826
<barry_> --done--
<sil2100> No infinity today
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Work on the testability branches, making tag-image and copy-image testable
<sil2100>   * Initial work on default-phased-percentage per channel
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Publishing the network-manager-applet 1.0.6 merge (with a tiny whoops)
<sil2100>   * Publishing the network-manager-pptp 1.0.6 merge
<sil2100>   * Preparing merge for n-m-a 1.0.8
<sil2100> - Review of OTA-8.5 hotfix bugs
<sil2100> - Discussions about auto-download of puritine in ubuntu-pd
<sil2100> - Improving the safe-copy-image wrapper to do more extensive checks
<sil2100> - Promoting a devel-proposed image to devel
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> doko: hi there
<doko> - updated GCC 5 fsf and linaro packages
<doko> - evaluated linaro test builds
<doko> - build cross compiler defaults from gcc-defaults, get rid off all gcc-defaults-cross-* sources
<doko> - bug forwarding for binutils and GCC
<doko> - still investigating python2.7 test failures
<doko> - llvm-toolchain-snapshot build now on all archs
<doko> - some merges
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox>  - ubiquity still waiting for review:
<cyphermox>    - https://pad.lv/c/~mathieu-tl/ubiquity/disable-verification/+merge/278668
<cyphermox>  - network-manager (1.0.4-0ubuntu5.2): fixes for IPv6 MTU flap
<cyphermox>  - many d-i merges:
<cyphermox>    - netcfg, user-setup, apt-setup, installation-report, preseed, rootskel
<cyphermox>    - partman-auto-raid, partman-iscsi, partman-btrfs
<cyphermox>    - ... and more still on the list.
<cyphermox>  - in progress merges:
<cyphermox>    - tasksel, kbd
<cyphermox>  - lots of d-i installs for smoke testing
<cyphermox>  - grub2: more TFTP timeout cherry-picks for bug LP: #1521612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1521612 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Continued TFTP timeouts when PXE booting via grub" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1521612
<cyphermox> (done)
<xnox> \o/ amazing
<slangasek> xnox: can you help out with reviewing that ubiquity MP cyphermox has waiting?
<xnox> slangasek, yes.
<tdaitx> let me go last, still writing down the stuff from last week
<cyphermox> to go with the d-i component merges there may be some conversion from bzr to git in my future.
<slangasek> xnox: ta
<slangasek> tdaitx: check
<slangasek> pitti:
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Automate daily maintenance for cleaning up behind cloud trouble
<pitti>  - Disable apt pinning for PPA requests (#1520505)
<pitti>  - Fix missing restricted/multiverse apt sources in precise images (fallout from cloud-init SRU)
<pitti>  - Generate http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/testlist.shtml
<pitti>  - Rework charm configs and multiple cloud config handling, so that we are back to fully automatic deployment and keeping all configs in git (this had become too hackish and hand-customized over time)
<pitti>  - In progress: test LXD in scalingstack on arm64, figure out some config issues, firewall troubles (RT pending), LP #1522026
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1522026 in Auto Package Testing "armhf lxd container does not start on arm64 system" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1522026
<pitti>  - make it possible to run britney in a local setup against a PPA (for CI train)
<pitti>  - rework britney code and data structures to be simpler and more robust, making the code much easier to understand and fixing some bugs
<pitti> Merges: grabbed a few old ones from other people: cdebconf, check, debhelper, docbook-dsssl, gegl, gnupg, pptpd
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - fix dkms crash in apport hook (#1303275), fix FTBFS of goplay
<pitti>  - some sponsoring (gnome-desktop3, rsyslog, etc.)
<pitti>  - systemd: Add autopkgtest for handling cryptsetup LUKS devices
<pitti>  - in progress: Discuss moving ISO and upgrade testing from s-jenkins to Jenkaas
<pitti> EOT
<xnox> xenial bootstrap archive was almost completed, got pushed to <<100 failures
<xnox> a bunch of people put all of that into launchpad, hence the builds are running there as of today. amazing work all of them.
<xnox> resolving in-launchpad FTBFS now
<xnox> spent a day in bluefin catching up with people, and CPC team
<xnox> Filed MIR requests: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mir/+subscribedbugs?field.tag=s390x
<xnox> next up: d-i & iso priority.
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> robru: next!
<cyphermox> xnox: what do you mean by d-i and iso priority?
<xnox> cyphermox, getting them built and working for s390x. neither of those two tasks are done, and there is a 16th of december deadline for those.
<cyphermox> alright. just making sure again that we don't step on each others' toes
<xnox> we shouldn't....
<slangasek>  * short week, Thanksgiving and was off on Monday
<slangasek>  * merges
<slangasek>  * s390x bootstrapping
<slangasek>  * UEFI 2.5 discussions
<slangasek>  * discussions around ZFS support on Ubuntu
<slangasek>  * looking at a race condition in the cryptsetup initramfs script (LP: #1481536)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1481536 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) ""cryptsetup: unknown fstype, bad password or options?" error unlocking / decrypting LUKS volume at boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1481536
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> caribou:
 * doko sees the first s390x builder online ...
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou> - Icehouse failed migration
<caribou> - LP: #1318111 - repetitive crashkernel
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1318111 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu) "Adds more and more copies of âcrashkernel=384M-:128Mâ in /etc/default/grub when upgrading or reinstalling grub-pc" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1318111
<caribou> - LP: #1496317 - kdump OOM killer failure
<caribou> - Nut merge
<caribou> - Rsyslog merge
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496317 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu Wily) "kexec fails with OOM killer with the current crashkernel=128 value" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496317
<caribou> Knowledge Brief review & redaction
<caribou> â Done
<xnox> doko, it did do 4k builds already. they are cloning that builder at the moment to get more going.
<slangasek> xnox: 4k?  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+builds?build_text=&build_state=built&arch_tag=s390x shows only 154 successful builds
<chiluk> Working on 1432871 coreutils ftbfs - Turns out the testcase needed to be updated.  None of the testcases were being run prior because df would fail to read the mount table, and thus were auto-skipped.  The root issue appears to still exist upstream.  debdiff that fixes the failing testcase is waiting in 1432871 for upload and SRU approval.
<chiluk> http://pad.lv/1347788 - Fix exists on unstable branch.  May consider moving xenial tun unstable find-utils like fedora, centos, and suse.
<chiluk> --done--
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347788 in findutils (Ubuntu Xenial) "find crashed when current working directory is not readable and -exec or -execdir used" [Low,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> working on a mojo spec for the error tracker
<bdmurray> researched and gave stub info about how to rebuild bucketversionscount
<bdmurray> uploaded apport to xenial resolving issue parsing dpkgterminallog with python2
<bdmurray> verified the fixes for LP: #1463680 and LP: #1511783 are good
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1463680 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "mirrors only added to mirrors.cfg, never removed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1463680
<bdmurray> for phased updates overrode some nautilus, xorg-server regressions
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1511783 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release upgrader can create a too minimal sources.list" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511783
<bdmurray> T, W SRU of bug fix for python-apt bug 1503979
<bdmurray> emailed jibel about how to get data out of errors.u.c using API
<bdmurray> updated merge-o-matic to check if there is a new package version in -proposed (LP: #1518113)
<ubottu> bug 1503979 in python-apt (Ubuntu Wily) "ubuntu-support-status throws exeption No date tag found (regression)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1503979
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1518113 in Merge-o-Matic "Please show -proposed package version information on merges.u.c" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1518113
<bdmurray> merged cyphermox, slangasek changes to merges.ubuntu.com
<xnox> slangasek, yes. launchpad is weird it was giving me out of 4k builds until i force refresh things. oh well =) wishful thinking. and probably stale yui js.
<bdmurray> added subscribe to package code to ubuntu-qa-tools
<bdmurray> subscribed foundations-bugs to a bunch of s390 packages
<bdmurray> SRU review of glib2.0 for seb128
<bdmurray> created google code in task for launchpad-gm-scripts
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> yeah, 4k would be too many, that would be main done.
<tdaitx> Short week: on vacation from Nov 26 to Dec 02
<tdaitx> Updates from Nov 19 to Nov 25:
<tdaitx>  - Provided OpenJDK 6b37 1.13.9 packages for the security team (new update for Wily and backports for Vivid, Trusty, and Precise)
<tdaitx> - Follow up on OpenJDK 7u91 2.6.3 updates to the security team
<tdaitx> - OpenJDK bug triage and fixes
<tdaitx> - Upstreamed LP: #1518741
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1518741 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "A pkg-config file is need for OpenJDK distributions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1518741
<tdaitx> - Need help from someone who knows pkgconfig better than I do on LP: #1518741
<tdaitx> - Gone through lots of emails since I was back yesterday afternoon/evening
<tdaitx> EOF
<slangasek> robru: around?
<tdaitx> ops, back copy&paste: upstreamed LP: #932274
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932274 in Iced Tea "Regression: Unreadable menu bar with Ambiance theme in Java/Swing GTK L&F" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932274
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> pitti, xnox: could we sync quickly regarding autopkgtest on s390x?
<pitti> we did in a PM, but sure, let's repeat here
<slangasek> (here, or after meeting)
<pitti> so my "minimal must have" requirements are:
<pitti>  - deboostrap works
<slangasek> pitti: we haven't all three of us synced in a PM ;)
<pitti>  - LXC works
<pitti>  - I get at least 15 CPUs and 30 GB of RAM to have enough capacity to keep up
<pitti> (preferably distributed over two VM instances, or perhaps 4
<xnox> that.
<pitti> there's a longer list of things which make this nicer (boot loader for vmdeboostrap and QEMU, cloud images,  scalingstack etc.), but that's not critical
<xnox> slangasek, once debootstrap works and lxc works, and like i can run one autopkgtest successfully the request will be to get machine(s) access to pitti to hook the rest of things up.
<slangasek> pitti: so one thing I heard said earlier was that we maybe didn't want to turn on autopkgtest gating for s390x until more is built because otherwise things will fail due to dependencies
<slangasek> and I disagree with that
<pitti> why wouldn't we do that?
<pitti> we only hold back on regressions, not on failures
<pitti> and we now track regression vs. alwaysfail per-arch
<pitti> why wouldn't we enable normal gating, I mean
<xnox> slangasek, i never said anything about disabling gating...
<slangasek> I think we should turn on gating sooner rather than later
<slangasek> xnox: ok, that's what I heard, so I wanted to be clear :)
<pitti> so even if all tests fail initially, that just won't catch regressions, but not hold anything back
<xnox> slangasek, in that case - when can we have autopkgtest machines provisioned? =)
<xnox> and shall those just be clones of buildds ?! =)
<slangasek> xnox: I don't know; we need to talk to kip/tinoco/cpaezler
<xnox> (well, autopkgtest need different network and firewall, so assume it's not the same as lp-buildds)
<slangasek> the buildds aren't done with the same VM config we requested for autopkgtest
<xnox> slangasek, and by we you mean I, or You? =)
<slangasek> xnox: yes
<slangasek> anyway
<xnox> lovely.
<slangasek> assuming there are no hang-ups on the VM provisioning side, I think we should be aiming to have autopkgtest enabled for s390x by early next week
<xnox> ack.
<slangasek> since a lot of packages are getting built right now, and this may be our one chance to *get* a baseline for their test results in xenial
<slangasek> unless pitti has another idea about how to get baseline results en masse, after the packages have already built+migrated to xenial?
<xnox> i assume we can retrigger testing of all -release pocket on s390x.
<pitti> slangasek: we can trigger the tests against -release too
<xnox> and if they pass, that will become the baseline.
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> britney won't do it for us of course, but it's easy enough to come up with a list of run-autopkgtest commands to do it
<slangasek> then that's probably a good idea to do, and then we don't have to worry so much about the timing of the autopkgtest bring-up
<slangasek> I still want us to get that ASAP however :)
<pitti> i. e. we grab s390x Packages.gz, and issue a request for all packages that we built
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek and xnox to pursue s390x VMs for autopkgtesting before next week
<meetingology> ACTION: slangasek and xnox to pursue s390x VMs for autopkgtesting before next week
<slangasek> alrighty
<slangasek> xnox: and nice work getting s390x going
<xnox> thank you, there is a lot of stuff to fix still.
<slangasek> I'd congratulate infinity too but I'm glad he's elsewhere :)
<slangasek> anything else?
<xnox> well him, colin and william did the black magic of bring up first buildd and that was dandy.
<doko> heh, its disabled now
<slangasek> the builder? it's torn down for cloning
<doko> but I like the build times, some under 1min
<slangasek> they'll be making 28 of them shortly
<slangasek> probably the easiest new arch bring-up ever, at least once the hardware is in place ;)
<pitti> and it seems we've got plenty this time
<pitti> I still remember the scarcity of arm back then
<cyphermox> doesn't take much mainframe to split up into chunks that are useful
<slangasek> yes, there's generally no shortage of server-grade zSeries hardware
<slangasek> obviously what we should do is move all of prodstack onto the z13
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  3 16:37:43 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-03-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks all!
<caribou> thanks!
<barry_> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<sil2100> Thanks!
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 17:01:52 2015 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<dholbach> hello hello :)
<marcoceppi> o/
<sgclark> hello
<dholbach> #chair sgclark czajkowski marcoceppi mhall119 hggdh
<meetingology> Current chairs: czajkowski dholbach hggdh marcoceppi mhall119 sgclark
<dholbach> Welcome to the first meeting of the new Community Council :-)
<sgclark> Hello everyone, newb council member at your service.
<czajkowski> aloha
<mhall119> o/
<dholbach> it looks like belkinsa and sabdfl are not around, but we have quite some good attendance already :)
<dholbach> There were two organisation bits I wanted to bring up: updating the CC Agenda page with the catchups of this cycle and looking at the restaffings which happen this cycle
<dholbach> do we have any other bits we want to go through before that?
<dholbach> should we maybe do some introductions of us? :)
<sgclark> yeah
<mhall119> +1 for introductions
<dholbach> let's do that then :)
<dholbach> #topic Introductions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Introductions
<dholbach> Who wants to go first?
<sgclark> sure I will
<sgclark> Hi, My name is Scarlett Clark. I am a developer for Kubuntu and KDE. I have been contibuting to (k)ubuntu family for a few years. This is my first run at the communitly political side of things. Bear with me as I find my way around things. Feel free to ask me any questions.
<sgclark> and my typing is horrid. sorry for that.
 * sgclark fears the silence
 * marcoceppi finishes typing
<marcoceppi> Hello, I'm Marco Ceppi. I'm a moderator on Ask Ubuntu and have been in the Ubuntu community for a quite few years now as wella s a long time Ubuntu user. While I mostly interact with users of Ubuntu Cloud and Server, I look forward to helping with the governece. I also serve on the Ubuntu Membership Board and work as an Engineering Manager at Canonical on the Juju Charm Community team
<sgclark> oohh juju, my new best friend
<mhall119> heh :)
<mhall119> I'm Michael Hall, a returning member of the Community Council, I am also a community manager at Canonical and long-time community contributor
<dholbach> Hello, I'm Daniel Holbach, also returning member of the CC. I've been part of Ubuntu for a long while and always liked to work with the different developer communities - right now I'm looking at Snappy Ubuntu Core a lot, I'm with mhall119 on the Community team.
<dholbach> czajkowski? :)
<dholbach> We'll introduce belkinsa and sabdfl the next time. ;-)
<mhall119> sabdfl probably doesn't need it :)
<sgclark> probably not lol
<marcoceppi> cool, welcome everyone o/
<dholbach> ok... it looks like czajkowski is in a conflicting meeting right now... we can maybe get her intro later on :)
<dholbach> yes, welcome everyone... I'm looking forward to working together with you :)
<mhall119> I'd one again like to thank all of our new and returning members for taking on this responsibility
<sgclark> welcome everyone, ditto
<mhall119> dholbach: shall we start with the CC agenda schedule?
<dholbach> yep, let's
<dholbach> #topic Updating the CC agenda schedule
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Updating the CC agenda schedule
<dholbach> so I just copied the old CC agenda to http://pad.ubuntu.com/dQDBNCfRIY
<dholbach> basically what we did in the last 2-3 years(?) was to invite other teams/councils/governance bodies into our CC meetings to have a brief catchup and get up to date on what's happening in other communities and offer help where we can
<dholbach> we could review the list of teams and see everyone's represented
<dholbach> in the meantime I could add dates, always alternating between 1st and 3rd Thu of the month
<sgclark> hmm I cant seem to access that
<dholbach> sgclark, can you try to join https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad?
<dholbach> although... as an Ubuntu member you should be part of it already
<dholbach> yes: https://launchpad.net/~sgclark/+participation
<sgclark> ok works in chrome, my firefox is grumpy this morning
<dholbach> oh ok
<mhall119> dholbach: Having apps/phone folks on was nice, should we do the same with cloud/juju? marcoceppi thoughts?
<dholbach> ah, nice idea
<marcoceppi> So, these dates align with this meeting, so we'd simply be inviting these teams to join/status update?
<dholbach> I also seem to remember that "Ubuntu Governance" was something we planned to do, but didn't quite follow up on
<dholbach> marcoceppi, yes
<marcoceppi> Having a Server/Cloud would be a good idea mhall119 dholbach
<dholbach> cool, added them
<dholbach> mhall119, czajkowski: do you remember what we wanted to do with "Ubuntu Governance"?
<mhall119> dholbach: I think that was catching up with the sub-councils
<dholbach> was this supposed to be a hangout? or a meeting where we invite all boards/councils or something completely different?
<mhall119> all together to discuss the overall community governance
<dholbach> ok... I guess can do that
<dholbach> cool... if that's it, I would doublecheck that the meetings don't collide with popular holidays or sprints/events, then we could reach out to the teams
<dholbach> #action dholbach to check the list of dates on http://pad.ubuntu.com/dQDBNCfRIY for conflicts
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to check the list of dates on http://pad.ubuntu.com/dQDBNCfRIY for conflicts
<mhall119> no obvious holidays that I know of
<dholbach> cool
<mhall119> dholbach: I can send out invite emails to all of them once you've double checked the dates
<dholbach> shall we have a look at the teams which need restaffing next year?
<mhall119> ifyou want to give me an action for that
<sgclark> looks ok to me
<dholbach> mhall119, awesome - thanks!
<dholbach> #action mhall119 to invite teams after we checked dates for collisions
<meetingology> ACTION: mhall119 to invite teams after we checked dates for collisions
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> #topic Restaffing teams in 2016
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Restaffing teams in 2016
<dholbach> maybe we can take a look look at the teams in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-council-teams/+members and see which need restaffing in 2016 and make a list
<mhall119> so I know that the LoCo Council needs to be concluded, they have nominees already we just need to go through them
<dholbach> maybe we just put them all in a pad
<dholbach> http://pad.ubuntu.com/9sK41pmNjL
<dholbach> ok, adding LoCo Council
<mhall119> Kubuntu Council just recently restaffed, I think everybody there is good for another year
<sgclark> kubuntu council is set for at least 1 year
<sgclark> right
<dholbach> sgclark, looking at https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-council/+members#active - could it be that some of the folks need their expiry date updated?
<dholbach> sgclark, it was a election of the full Kubuntu Council, right?
<mhall119> it looks like three IRCC seats expire next month
<sgclark> it was an election of replacements of those we lost
<mhall119> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council/+members#active
<dholbach> sgclark, ok, thanks
<dholbach> http://pad.ubuntu.com/9sK41pmNjL updated
<dholbach> it looks like some busy next 2 months :-)
<mhall119> yes indeed
<dholbach> I'm happy to mail all the teams with instructions and dates, so we can get the processes started.
<mhall119> IRC and Forums we should open up for nominations soon
<dholbach> yep
<mhall119> what's the process for restaffing the TB?
<mhall119> are we involved in that at all?
<dholbach> ~ubuntu-dev members can vote
<hggdh> I don think so, the TB has different rules
<mhall119> that's what I thought too, but we can help spread the call for nominations
<dholbach> we at least list them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
<dholbach> they won't mind a reminder from us :)
<hggdh> heh
<mhall119> :)
<dholbach> all right... I'll send a couple of mails :)
<dholbach> #action dholbach to mail teams about upcoming restaffings
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to mail teams about upcoming restaffings
<dholbach> do we have any other subjects we want to discuss?
<dholbach> at some stage I think it'd be good to talk about team reports... I know I've been doing an awful job of updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/TeamReports
<dholbach> pleia2 took care of them quite often
<dholbach> I wonder if other teams are still using them or if we check them for things like the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter
<mhall119> honestly I haven't heard anybody talking about team reports in a long time
<dholbach> yeah, I know
<hggdh> perhaps this is a good question to ask the teams
<dholbach> hggdh, you mean during the catchup with the team?
<hggdh> yes, this would be the prefect moment, I think
<dholbach> yep, I agree
<hggdh> *perfect
<dholbach> maybe we can also discuss it on the ubuntu-community-team@ list to see how people feel about it
<dholbach> and maybe we can even give them a bit more visibility and make them more useful again
<hggdh> dholbach: indeed it would geve a broader visibility
<mhall119> +1 for discussing in the ML, since team reports are the responsibility of more than just the leaders of the teams we'll be meeting with
<sgclark> I did not even know about them, so that sounds good, visibility..
<dholbach> does anyone want to start the discussion on the mailing list?
<dholbach> does anyone want to update our team reports page with a link to the meeting log and everything? :)
<sgclark> since I dn't know anything about them, I have to decline :(
<dholbach> fair enough :)
<dholbach> no worries... I can mail the list - it should be quick to do
<dholbach> #action dholbach to start a conversation on the list about team reports
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to start a conversation on the list about team reports
<sgclark> about updating our team reports page, I guess that would be a good place for me to start learning about them, ? trying to do ours? lol
<dholbach> sounds good... I was very close to agreeing to do it, but I can't seem to log into the wiki :)
<sgclark> well I would like to be useful, seems that is a good place to start.
<dholbach> #action sgclark to update the team report for this meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: sgclark to update the team report for this meeting
<dholbach> thanks a lot sgclark
<dholbach> let me know if I can help
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<sgclark> will do
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> does anyone have anything else to discuss?
<hggdh> not right now from me, still learning the ropes
<sgclark> yeah, is there a place hidden on the web that outlines our full responsibilities?
<dholbach> yeah... this was our get-the-cycle-started meeting, which is a bit different from the others :)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil and the pages linked from there is what I can think of
<dholbach> let me see if there's more on community.u.c
 * balloons pokes his head in just to say hello and welcome to all the new CC members!
<sgclark> read that, not really clear on my role yet though hah.
<dholbach> there are some bits on http://community.ubuntu.com/community-structure/ and http://community.ubuntu.com/community-structure/governance/ but not too much
<marcoceppi> I assumed we all wore robes and lorded around, ruling with an iron fist ;)
<sgclark> ahh that looks useful thanks
<sgclark> lol
<dholbach> mhall119 and czajkowski can correct me if I'm wrong, but to me the largest part of the responsibilities on the CC was "being there for others" - when other teams had issues and needed help, either for a resolution or getting to know somebody who could help, that's what the CC did a lot
<marcoceppi> dholbach: that's how I've always viewed the team
<balloons> and hugs!
<dholbach> marcoceppi, I'd like to see a picture of you with a robe and your iron fist before I post mine...
<dholbach> balloons, right :-)
<hggdh> balloons: hugs are always good :-)
 * dholbach hugs you all
<mhall119> dholbach: it's become that by virtue of the fact that most other responsibilities have been delegates to those others
 * hggdh gives out a collective hug
<sgclark> I can do hugs. my specialty
<dholbach> what a great start of the new CC :-)
<mhall119> I would like to see the CC become more pro-active in some areas though
<sgclark> yes
<mhall119> particularly in growing Membership and LoCo team activities
<sgclark> yes +1 mhall119
<mhall119> I'll bring that up more in our hangout next week though :)
<sgclark> the community is not quite as healthy as it once was, I would like to attempt to address that.
<dholbach> shall we start separate discussions about that? we could use the ubuntu-community-team list ... or brainstorm in a hangout first, yes, sounds good
<sgclark> brainstorm first
<dholbach> cool
<mhall119> let's do a hangout first, to get a feel for what we all want to do with our roles in the CC
<sgclark> yeah
<hggdh> sgclark: ys, we cannot try to address whar we do not understand
<dholbach> all right... I'll have to run in a bit - the family is in town and it's dinner time :)
<sgclark> right
 * hggdh is going thru a real bad keybor experience tody
<mhall119> any topics from anybody outside the CC?
<marcoceppi> also, there'a another meeting starting in 1 min here
<hggdh> <sigh/>
<sgclark> I have a bad keyboard experience everyday!
<dholbach> ok... let's wrap it then
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  3 18:00:16 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-03-17.01.moin.txt
<sgclark> thanks all
<mhall119> thanks everyone
<hggdh> dholbach: thank you. As always, in your debt
<dholbach> big hugs! :)
<sgclark> hugs!
<Kilos> o/
<sturmflut> Good evening!
<Kilos> hi sturmflut
<fo0bar> o/
<Kilos> hi fo0bar
<sturmflut> Kilos: Thanks again for pointing out the broken link in the candidate table
<Kilos> np lad
<toddy> hi und halllo sturmflut
<Kilos> its a pain to try sort during the meeting
<Na3iL> Hey @All :)
<Kilos> hi Na3iL
<toddy> hi Na3iL
<sturmflut> toddy: \o/
<elacheche_anis> Hello!
<toddy> nic to see you here, sturmflut :)
<marcoceppi> \o
<toddy> *nice
<toddy> Hello fo0bar
<fo0bar> hi toddy
<toddy> und hello elacheche_anis + marcoceppi + Kilos
<popey> ola
<Kilos> hi toddy
<sturmflut> toddy: Yeah, was off IRC for quite a while. Too much work and no bouncer :/ but now everything is back to normal again
<toddy> hello popey
<Kilos> evening popey
<toddy> thats sound good, sturmflut
<elacheche_anis> Hey guys! So Na3iL fo0bar sturmflut you're here :) Great.. We start our meeting?
<toddy> we need you for the newx ubucon :)
<Na3iL> Yep.
<fo0bar> woot
<elacheche_anis> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 20:03:27 2015 UTC.  The chair is elacheche_anis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<jcastro> sorry I was in the wrong channel
<elacheche_anis> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<elacheche_anis> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<elacheche_anis> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<elacheche_anis> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<elacheche_anis> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<Kilos> hi jcastro
<elacheche_anis> You're not late jcastro :)
<elacheche_anis> Na3iL, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<elacheche_anis> #topic Na3iL
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Na3iL
<elacheche_anis> Na3iL, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<Na3iL> Hey @All :) my name is NaeÃ®l Zoueidi aka Na3iL. I am 23 years old, live in Gafsa a city in the South of TUNISIA, and I am student in a IT institute.
<Na3iL> My LP account is https://launchpad.net/~naeilzoueidi & my WiKi page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Na3iL
<Na3iL> I started using Linux by the time of January 2008 & I've mandrake to Ubuntu since April 2008
<elacheche_anis> #voters Kilos elacheche_anis toddy ahoneybun wxl cwayne popey hggdh jcastro marcoceppi
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cwayne
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis hggdh jcastro marcoceppi popey toddy wxl
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<toddy> Do you have any pictures from the events which you have organized, Na3iL?
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for Na3iL ? Any supporters here?
<popey> Nice testimonials.
 * elacheche_anis Is supporting Na3iL as a Ubuntu-tn Member
<Na3iL> toddy, Yep they are up in G+ for ubuntu-tn LoCo team, I am going to organize them ASAP..
 * Kilos supporting as an ubuntu-africa member
<marcoceppi> awesome, it'd be great to share those with the community
<Na3iL> thank you elacheche_anis popey Kilos
<fo0bar> [sorry to interrupt, but there's a pretty big windstorm going on outside (it's the windy season) -- I've got good UPS systems but there's a tiny but non-zero chance I may disappear as a result]
<toddy> yes, very nice testimonials
<toddy> thank you for the information, fo0bar
<popey> Na3iL, I'm surprised to see very few bug reports on launchpad from you.
<popey> Your systems must run perfectly :)
<jcastro> this looks like pretty much a textbook example of good contributions to me.
<Na3iL> popey, it is one from my future goals is to be a member in the MOTU team.. & I am trying to report bugs for the Ubuntu GNOME.
<Kilos> Na3iL ty for your help with the wiki pages for africa
<elacheche_anis> So is there any other questions? Or the board is ready to vote?
<Kilos> ready to vote
<toddy> ready to vote
 * marcoceppi ready
<elacheche_anis> #vote for Na3iL Membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for Na3iL Membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<toddy> +1 keep up the good work and very nice to see such good testimonials
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work and very nice to see such good testimonials received from toddy
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<Kilos> +1 Keep it up
<meetingology> +1 Keep it up received from Kilos
<elacheche_anis> +1 I'm happy to have you as part of Ubuntu Tunisia :)
<meetingology> +1 I'm happy to have you as part of Ubuntu Tunisia :) received from elacheche_anis
<marcoceppi> +1 keep up the good work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work! received from marcoceppi
<jcastro> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jcastro
<elacheche_anis> I think that's all..
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for Na3iL Membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> Congrats Na3iL ! :)
 * popey added Na3iL to ~ubuntumembers
<fo0bar> Na3iL: congrats
<Kilos> Na3iL congrats and welcome
<popey> Congratulations!
<sturmflut> Na3iL: Congratulations!
<Na3iL> Thank you guys :)
<toddy> Na3iL: congrats
<elacheche_anis> Next is fo0bar
<elacheche_anis> #topic fo0bar
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: fo0bar
<elacheche_anis> fo0bar, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<fo0bar> canned paste intro follows :)
<fo0bar> Greetings!  I've been an Ubuntu user since the beginning (giving out Warty ShipIt CDs at the 2004 local LUG christmas party), and I've been an IS SRE (sysadmin) with Canonical since 2012, which involves a fair amount of interfacing with Ubuntu development teams, LoCos, community teams, archives/mirrors, etc.
<fo0bar> I created and maintain the Raspberry Pi 2 Ubuntu 14.04 port, an unofficial community port of the latest LTS using the RPi2 kernel patchlist backported to trusty.  I've been a Debian Maintainer since 2007, and maintain a handful of packages.  On the Ubuntu side of this, I watch Launchpad, assist with bugs, and produce SRUs when needed.
<fo0bar> Most of my Ubuntu strengths are related to package and distribution management.  I'm applying for Ubuntu membership primarily for the increased community collaboration opportunities, but also eventually possible per-package upload rights or even MOTU responsibilities.  Thank you!
<fo0bar> Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fo0bar - Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~fo0bar
<elacheche_anis> Questions for fo0bar ? Supporters here?
<jcastro> Debian contributions are always appreciated
<Kilos> fo0bar what took you so long to apply
<toddy> fo0bar: you are working at canonical? which position do you have? What are you doing there at most?
<elacheche_anis> fo0bar: I want to ask qeustions, but can't.. As a SysAdmin, I know that you should contributed to every peice of the Ubuntu project bu now x) I love what you're doing.. Especially the RaspPi port..
<fo0bar> Kilos: I actually touched on that a bit on the wiki page.  much of what I've needed to do in the Ubuntu community can really be done by anyone
<fo0bar> and between that and the day job, well, supporting Ubuntu, I've been putting it off :)
<fo0bar> joey and I talked about it awhile ago and he convinced me to put in
<Kilos> im glad he did
 * joey supports fo0bar for membership.
<fo0bar> toddy: I work in IS, so we maintain the hardware and networks, etc.  Canonical development teams and Ubuntu teams are effectively our customers
<popey> well, I'd never heard of Turku before reading your wiki page fo0bar !
 * seelaman supports fo0bar as well
<elacheche_anis> 2 supportes here :)
<fo0bar> so it's a lot of network creation, deploying new services for customers, things like that
<jcastro> yeah I feel like we all really missed an opportunity on telling everyone about turku
<jcastro> I am ashamed at how awesome it is and I've never heard of it
<fo0bar> jcastro: I actually made a post on insights.ubuntu.com a month or so ago
<fo0bar> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2015/08/04/introducing-turku-cloud-friendly-backups-for-your-infrastructure/
 * marcoceppi reads post
<elacheche_anis> Yeah, I was surprised when I saw that on the wiki, am a SysAdmin and always googling backup solutions, 1st time to see that wsas this week in your wiki fo0bar
<jcastro> yeah, I'd like to work with you on making that project more well known
<popey> +1
<popey> (to making it more well known) :D
<elacheche_anis> Yep
<elacheche_anis> Any other questions?
<fo0bar> elacheche_anis: thanks.  and btw, thanks for the like on the rpi2 port (though I admit I've been slacking a bit with keeping the vanilla kernel patches integrated lately)
<toddy> I have no more questions. I am ready to vote.
<Kilos> ready
 * marcoceppi ready
<elacheche_anis> #vote for fo0bar Membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for fo0bar Membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Kilos> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Kilos
<marcoceppi> +1 Thanks for keeping Ubuntu infrastructure running!
<meetingology> +1 Thanks for keeping Ubuntu infrastructure running! received from marcoceppi
<elacheche_anis> +1 Always happy to see Canonical guys thinking about the community contribs :)
<meetingology> +1 Always happy to see Canonical guys thinking about the community contribs :) received from elacheche_anis
<toddy> +1 Very good and
<toddy> important job which you are doing
<meetingology> +1 Very good and received from toddy
<popey> +
<popey> +1 even :D
<meetingology> +1 even :D received from popey
<jcastro> +1 would also like to followup on getting turku more prominent in the LTS release announcements, etc
<meetingology> +1 would also like to followup on getting turku more prominent in the LTS release announcements, etc received from jcastro
<popey> Nice one fo0bar
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for fo0bar Membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> Congrats fo0bar :)
<pleia2> fo0bar: congrats, my friend :)
<fo0bar> thank you all!
<joey> w00t
<Kilos> congrats fo0bar
<elacheche_anis> :D
<toddy> congrats
<seelaman> \o/
<elacheche_anis> sturmflut is next
<sturmflut> fo0bar: Congratulations!
<elacheche_anis> #topic sturmflut
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: sturmflut
<elacheche_anis> sturmflut, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<sturmflut> My name is Simon Raffeiner aka "Sturmflut". I'm 32 years old, live in Germany, have been using Ubuntu since 2005 and work for a supercomputing site run by the german government. My LP is https://launchpad.net/~sturmflut and my Wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sturmflut .
<sturmflut> I spend most of my "Ubuntu time" working on the Ubuntu Phone project, I'm an Ubuntu Phone Insider and an Ubuntu Pioneer and write blog articles about device and platform internals. I think I excel at technical things, but this year I've also started to make contributions for the overall Ubuntu Community by founding and organising the UbuContest and contributing to Ubucon Germany and Ubuntu Party in Paris.
 * popey added fo0bar to ~ubuntumembers
<sturmflut> I'm on the team for UbuCon Europe 2016, but have also committed to support three other community events in 2016.
<cm-t> Hi all and dear council! I can't stay online due to afk current needs. Just wanted to say I strongly recommnd sturmflut as an ubuntu member. He did and does a lot for ubucon (even for the ubucon Paris where he went to helped to bring it to the next level â  http://media.ubuntu-paris.org ) europe, and his ubucontest initiative is an awesome example to continue.
<sturmflut> cm-t: Thank you very much :)
<elacheche_anis> Thank you cm-t for mentionning that :)
<cm-t> sturmflut: you're the guy
<toddy> I support sturmflut, too. He makes a good work in the Ubuntu Touch Community and help us by the Ubucon in Germany.
<wxl> here at last
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for sturmflut ?
<elacheche_anis> Hi wxl :D
<Kilos> wb wxl
<popey> Without my membership board hat on...
<wxl> sturmflut: i'd like to see the ubucontest link get fixed :)
<popey> I'm also here to support sturmflut, he's been super active in the Ubuntu Phone community
<popey> Scheduling events, blogging, finding bugs...
<popey> Uploading silly games, making silly t-shirts.
<popey> We need more like sturmflut
<sturmflut> wxl: the one on the Wiki? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuContest works for me
<marcoceppi> Thank you for your work on Ubuntu Phone, also nice testimonials
 * popey puts his membership board hat back on.
<wxl> sturmflut: yes but hthe one link there ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuContest/UbuContest2016 doesn't go anywhere
<popey> stupid wiki is taking ages to load
<popey> fix it fo0bar ! :D
<sturmflut> Oooooh
<Kilos> hehe
<marcoceppi> sturmflut: are you currently a member of a LoCo?
<wxl> popey: that usually means the page doesn't exist XD
<popey> True.
<sturmflut> marcoceppi: No
<fo0bar> popey: heh, but seriously, moin just doesn't scale well enough for the size of wiki.ubuntu.com, and it causes problems
<wxl> btw fo0bar and Na3iL congrats.
<fo0bar> I've just bounced apache, which usually helps
<wxl> also fo0bar thank you SO MUCH for finnix.
<Na3iL> thank you wxl & wb
<wxl> moin stinks but that's another story :)
<sturmflut> wxl: http://ubucon.de/2015/contest is the better resource in the meantime
<elacheche_anis> Let's focus on the application guys :)
<wxl> sturmflut: it really seems that all your evangelising would be greatly improved with the help of a loco
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for sturmflut ? Or we are ready to vote?
 * marcoceppi is ready
<Kilos> ready
<fo0bar> wxl: :)
 * wxl struggles to find the german loco
<marcoceppi> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-de-locoteam/
<toddy> sturmflut: now you are a member of the german loco
<toddy> I have the rights :)
<wxl> thx marcoceppi couldn't find it in the list
<wxl> ah yes that's right you're the team contact for the german loco toddy
<wxl> sturmflut: you and toddy should talk for sure!
<marcoceppi> sturmflut: I was going to recommend considering joinging the DE LoCo, but toddy "fixed" that ;)
<elacheche_anis> #vote for sturmflut Membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for sturmflut Membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<toddy> +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 :D
<meetingology> +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 :D received from toddy
<popey> +1 keep up the great work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the great work! received from popey
<sturmflut> toddy: TBH every time I wanted to finally take care of joining the german LoCo I got sidetracked by some stupid phone bug
<marcoceppi> A lot of people are really interested in the phone, so having someone like you attend events when you can would be really helpful
<marcoceppi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from marcoceppi
<wxl> +1 for sure! keep up the great work
<elacheche_anis> +1 Keep the good work sturmflut :)
<meetingology> +1 for sure! keep up the great work received from wxl
<meetingology> +1 Keep the good work sturmflut :) received from elacheche_anis
<Kilos> +1 keep up the good work
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work received from Kilos
 * ogra_ sends the skynet drones to applaud 
<elacheche_anis> jcastro: AFK?
<jcastro> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jcastro
<jcastro> sorry!
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for sturmflut Membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
 * popey added sturmflut to ~ubuntumembers 
<elacheche_anis> Congrats sturmflut !
<wxl> yay!!!!
<wxl> congrats sturmflut !
<popey> Congratulations sturmflut !
<sturmflut> ogra_: That's nice and creepy at the same time ;)
<elacheche_anis> Congrats Na3iL fo0bar sturmflut you deserve it guys :)
<sturmflut> YAY!
<Kilos> congrats sturmflut
<toddy> congrats Simon!
<ogra_> :)
<marcoceppi> congrats Na3iL fo0bar and  sturmflut!
<Na3iL> ty guys! :)
<elacheche_anis> #Endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  3 20:38:58 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-03-20.03.moin.txt
<Kilos> welwelcome all you new members
<fo0bar> thanks everyone!
<Kilos> hmm...
<wxl> thanks all
<wxl> keep up the good work, as always!
<popey> Who is sending the mail to the ubuntu news team?
<jcastro> sorry I was late for the last vote; I was distracted digging in my email trying to find the last time I tried get us onto a modern wiki
<jcastro> because someone mention moin and I got all emotional and sad
<wxl> btw Na3iL fo0bar sturmflut if for some reason you need help with any of the membership benefits, like the ubuntu.com mail alias, etc, let me know.
<jcastro> congrats everyone! \o/
<Na3iL> sure wxl ty
<wxl> jcastro: a modern wiki? wow, sounds dreamy
<Kilos> :D
<sturmflut> wxl: Thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-04
<trmgbg> #NISLab
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-06
<howefield>  o/
<bapoumba> Hey howefield :)
<slickymaster> \o
<slickymaster> hi howefield
<howefield> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Dec  6 18:03:59 2015 UTC.  The chair is howefield. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<howefield> #chair bapoumba cariboo howefield slickymaster
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cariboo
<meetingology> Current chairs: bapoumba cariboo howefield slickymaster
<howefield> #chair cariboo907
<meetingology> Current chairs: bapoumba cariboo cariboo907 howefield slickymaster
<howefield> #meeting topic Forum Council Meeting
<howefield> #subtopic Forum Staff renewals
<cariboo907> I'm going to hve to get my nick changed one of these days :)
<slickymaster> lol cariboo907
<howefield> dang the 907 :)
<howefield> #chair coffeecat
<meetingology> Current chairs: bapoumba cariboo cariboo907 coffeecat howefield slickymaster
<bapoumba> I cannot log into the wiki /o\
<howefield> ok, agenda topic Forum Staff renewals is our only point noted for discussion.
<bapoumba> We have a few points in the current report
<slickymaster> that's normal bapoumba. wiki is always acting up :P
<bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil/TeamReports
<bapoumba> Iâm finally logged in \o/
<bapoumba> will update the report during the memting > one thing done
<bapoumba> *meeting
<slickymaster> thanks for doing that bapoumba
<bapoumba> welcome. I do things I do not like ;)
<slickymaster> :)
<bapoumba> I do not recall why I had âForums Structureâ. What did we change last ?
<cariboo907> Didn't we move around some sub-forums and close some others?
<bapoumba> well, which ones ? :D
<slickymaster> bapoumba, I think one of them was the Multimedia Software sub-forum
<cariboo907> We closed Asus, Dell support and Ubuntu One
<howefield> can't remember one after http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2235063
<bapoumba> Oh yeah, Multimedia
<slickymaster> cffeecat fiddle with it
<slickymaster> * coffeecat
<bapoumba> yeah
<bapoumba> but I cannot seem to find the latest thread
<slickymaster> me neither
<slickymaster> but I'm almost sure coffeecat wrote something in a thread regarding it
<bapoumba> yep
<coffeecat> As far as I remember I just tidied up Multimedia and Art & Design to reduce the number of misplaced threads.
<cariboo907> there is this thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2287393
<cariboo907> but it's related to wine and gaming
<coffeecat> People were asking how do I use GIMP type questions in Art & Design and video card driver problems in multimedia.
<slickymaster> yeaps, that's the one I was talking about, cariboo907
<bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil/TeamReports/15/December
<cariboo907> looks good so far :)
<bapoumba> Please check again
<bapoumba> the Staff Team part was writen a month ago when we talked about it
<cariboo907> I just did :)
<bapoumba> should we discuss it now ? (Iâm +1 on that)
<slickymaster> +1
<cariboo907> I'll add my +1
<bapoumba> Execpt for the User account number, and Staff Team parts, Iâm done with the wiki page
<slickymaster> I think it's alright bapoumba
<bapoumba> OK :) Itâs a wiki page. Anyone can edit (provided you can log in :p)
<cariboo907> which user account numbers are we going to use, what's on the front page, or howefield 's number?
<bapoumba> well, that was for howefieldâs one
<bapoumba> whe nwe talked about it
<bapoumba> it item can go, not sure where we al stand on that
<bapoumba> *all
<cariboo907> we are at 2012230 with the latest new member
<cariboo907> or 2,002,182 if we go by the front page :)
<slickymaster> I'd go with the former one cariboo907
<bapoumba> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2289623
<cariboo907> maybe we should move on to the only agenda item
<bapoumba> +1
<slickymaster> that would be the restaffing activities, right cariboo907?
<cariboo907> Yes
<slickymaster> shall we proceed the, or wait for howefield?
<slickymaster> s/the/then
<cariboo907> I've forgotten how it was done, if we have to individually have to email the Community Council or we can do it in one email
<bapoumba> If howefield is having trouble, Iâm +1 on waiting
<cariboo907> +1 to that
<coffeecat> We could discuss restaffing in a thread in admins, I suppose.
<bapoumba> yes
<slickymaster> there's already one -> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2305290
<coffeecat> thanks slickymaster . I suggest we cary the discussion on in that thread.
<slickymaster> works for me
<coffeecat> *carry*
<bapoumba> +1
<cariboo907> +1 seeing as I started the thread :)
<slickymaster> )
<cariboo907> So if there is nothing else to discuss we can end this meeting?
<coffeecat> +1 to that.
<bapoumba> fine with me, please edit the team report if Iâm away :)
<slickymaster> +1 also
<cariboo907> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Dec  6 19:08:42 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-12-06-18.03.moin.txt
<slickymaster> thanks all
<bapoumba> thanks :)
<cariboo907> Thanks to all  :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-05
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  5 16:30:56 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<tyhicks> jdstrand: hey - you're up if you're ready
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> I didn't get to anything I planned to last week except for review tools updates. Everything else was surrounding PR reviews, --classic, personal, bugs and base declaration updates. as such, this week is pretty much the same as last week:
<jdstrand> follow up on dbus-app interface for snappy
<jdstrand> snappy reviews
<jdstrand> start looking at network-namespace interface
<jdstrand> seccomp arg filtering policy as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I'm working on nss updates, that's about it as I go on vacation next week except for monday
<mdeslaur> next!
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> I'm finishing the second part of the seccomp logging changes for snappy
<tyhicks> that's the "complain mode" support
<tyhicks> I still need to get to some eCryptfs issues
<tyhicks> that includes the inode timestamps issue (LP: #1636890) and a crypto api usage issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636890 in cloud-initramfs-tools "invalid file times with overlayroot and encrypted home" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636890
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: are you around?
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead and we'll circle back if jjohansen gets here
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> I didn't get much done on non-cve-triage last week, so just replay all that here :) libsmbios mir, starting swift-s3-something mir
<sarnold> and I'm pretty sure I'm off friday, so short week
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<tyhicks> sarnold: is there anything left for you to do on that apt bug?
<sarnold> tyhicks: oh! I forgot that one..
<chrisccoulson> I need to do the oxide 1.19 release this week
<sarnold> tyhicks: hopefullly apt has been let into the build queue by now, if it has, then i'll test it.
<chrisccoulson> fingers crossed there will be no mozilla updates this week
<sarnold> chrisccoulson: heh, didn't you just do one? :)
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'm currently working on bug 1637190, and I need to do a review too
<ubottu> bug 1637190 in Oxide "Add support for customising the context menu in UbuntuWebView" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637190
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> sarnold: it is still in the trusy unapproved queue
<chrisccoulson> sarnold, yeah ;)
<tyhicks> thanks chrisccoulson
<ratliff> I think I'm up
<tyhicks> you are :)
<ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week
<ratliff> I'm working on a ghostscript regression (LP: #1647276)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647276 in ghostscript (Ubuntu) "ps2epsi fails after December 01 update" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647276
<ratliff> that is it for me
<sarnold> why do I suddenly want a pepsi..?
<tyhicks> :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/firebird2.5.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/netty-3.9.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/privoxy.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-connect.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libpgf.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  5 16:42:14 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-12-05-16.30.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<ratliff> thank you tyhicks!
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<slashd> Hi, Is there a mtg today "Developer Membership Board" ?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> I'm afraid I don't think we'll have quorum today.
<rbasak> Most DMB staff who are also Canonical employees are sprinting this week.
<fossfreedom_> oh dear!
<micahg> o/
<HEXcube> Uh.. Oh..
<slashd> rbasak, Is it possible to get +1/-1 via email instead of waiting for next meeting ? just asking if possibe
<slashd> I think I already saw that in the past (if you think it is applicable)
<rbasak> slashd: I think most prefer IRC, but I believe ML-only has been offered (and done) before.
<slashd> rbasak, ok was only proposing since I don't think there is much mtg in 2016 right ?
<slashd> it starts back in "January 16th 2017" from what I see
<rbasak> I had proposed that we skip the 19 Dec meeting as I didn't think there would be much attendance.
<rbasak> Perhaps we can re-instate it if there's demand and we can check that DMB members will be available.
<rbasak> Or, indeed, exceptionally do one next week or somethin ginstead.
<slashd> rbasak, ok I'm really up to any propositions (email, next week, 19dec, ...) and worst case I will re-apply in Jan 2017
<rbasak> I'm quite happy to make accomodations, but of course I'm here and the others who would need to show up to that aren't here :-/
<slashd> rbasak, yeah this is why I thought that email would be a good alternative, but again worst case I will re-re-apply in 2017 lol
<rbasak> I can try to ask around tomorrow as most of the Canonical DMB staff not here right now around in the same building as me tomorrow.
<rbasak> Who was the other applicant?
<fossfreedom> hi - that would be me
<rbasak> o/
<fossfreedom> :)
<rbasak> I guess broadly the options are: 1) defer to another IRC meeting; 2) defer to ML
<fossfreedom> sorry - ML ?
<slashd> mailling list
<rbasak> Mailing list (devel-permissions@)
<fossfreedom> k
<rbasak> Another IRC meeting could be 12th, 19th, another date, or January.
<rbasak> And time to be determined.
<rbasak> slashd, fossfreedom: if we followed that path, what would be your availability?
<fossfreedom> hmm - kind of a problem maybe for Ubuntu Budgie?
<slashd> rbasak, ok 12th and 19th would work for me
<fossfreedom> I will try to make myself available anyhow
<rbasak> OK, what sort of times? 1900 UTC like this one? 1500 UTc/
<rbasak> UTC?
<fossfreedom> would prefer if poss 1900UTC
<slashd> 19:00 UTC is fine for me
<rbasak> OK. I'll try to ask the others tomorrow if they're willing to do 12th or 19th, 1900UTC.
<fossfreedom> thnx
<slashd> thanks rbasak
<rbasak> If we can get a quorate number available, we could do that.
<slashd> much appreciated
<fossfreedom> cheers
<rbasak> I can currently do the 12th at 1900, but not the 19th at 1900.
<rbasak> micahg: how about you?
<micahg> I think that's fine
<micahg> either one
<slashd> 12th 1900 works for me
<rbasak-lag> My main connection seems to have died :-(
<rbasak-lag> 19:17 <rbasak> I can currently do the 12th at 1900, but not the 19th at 1900.
<rbasak-lag> 19:17 <rbasak> micahg: how about you?
<rbasak-lag> Is what I saw last.
<micahg> [13:17] <micahg> I think that's fine
<micahg> [13:17] <micahg> either one
<micahg> [13:17] <slashd> 12th 1900 works for me
<sarnold> rbasak-lag: < micahg> I think that's fine < micahg> either one < slashd> 12th 1900 works for me
<rbasak-lag> Thanks :)
<rbasak-lag> OK, shall we leave it there then? I'll report back tomorrow.
<fossfreedom> rbasak - quick question ... on a related matter - we need someone to review and feedback our sponsors ubuntu-budgie-meta package - I see the ubuntu sponsors team are quite backed up at the moment.  Anyone available that you know that can review?  We believe this is one of the last steps before asking for ISOs production (probably).
<slashd> rbasak-lag' works for me, let's reconvene tomorrow with final decision
<rbasak-lag> I'm afraid most of the people who could review that are busy this week. I would, but I'm sorry I'm not confident reviewing that.
<rbasak-lag> slashd: great. Thanks! And sorry for the trouble.
<micahg> fossfreedom: have you asked in #ubuntu-motu?
<fossfreedom> haven't as yet - will try.
<slashd> rbasak-lag, don't be sorry I totally understand, I was myself in a sprint 2 weeks ago.
<HEXcube> Anytime between 12th 15:00UTC and 19:00 UTC
<slashd> rbasak-lag, enjoy Seville
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-08
<chiluk> o/  or is the meeting cancelled for once.
<chiluk> slangasek is there no meeting today?
<chiluk> slangasek... I'm actually back from my month of sprints... I was so looking forward to this meeting ;)
<doko> chiluk: we're sprinting, so I think nobody thought about cancelling it for this week ...
<chiluk> doko where are you guys sprinting?
<chiluk> curious for timezone reasons.
<doko> Seville
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-09
<slangasek> chiluk: yes, the meeting was cancelled on the calendar
<chiluk> slangasek I don't pay attention to those pesky event updates.... too much e-mail already
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-11
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-04
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  4 16:42:35 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> This week I'm primarily focusing on things for 2.30:
<jdstrand> * finish review-tools resquashfs tests
<jdstrand> * investigate/implement proper fix for hotplugged devices not being added to device cgroup (mir input forum issue)
<jdstrand> * policy updates PR for 2.30
<jdstrand> * pickup the ssh/gpg interfaces PR
<jdstrand> * snapd 2.30 PR reviews
<jdstrand> * investigate biometrics observe interface
<jdstrand> * implement screen-lock interface
<jdstrand> * non-2.30 PR reviews as have time (eg, layouts, xdg-settings)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I just published an evince update
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple more to test
<mdeslaur> I also want to work on ubuntu-support-status this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> that's it for me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place
<sbeattie> I'm still researching cve triage process for snaps
<sbeattie> I have some upstream apparmor tasks I need to get to
<sbeattie> I am also monitoring kernel cves/respins
<sbeattie> and I have a couple of other random issues on my plate
<sbeattie> that's it for me; tyhicks, over to you.
<tyhicks>    * weekly role: happy place
<tyhicks>    * embargoed issues
<tyhicks>    * squashfs reproduceability
<tyhicks>    * nudge a number of things along:
<tyhicks>     * snapd seccomp logging PR
<tyhicks>     * libseccomp Xenial SRU
<tyhicks>     * audit SRUs
<tyhicks>     * libseccomp-golang upstream PR
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am working on making apparmor mount mediation work with the mount code rework
<jjohansen> I will also being doing a 4.14 kernel for the kernel team
<jjohansen> and maybe I can get some work done on updating the backport kernels
<jjohansen> and I suppose there are several bugs to look at but I don't have any bug numbers of particular ones
<jjohansen> sarnold: you are up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> and doing some embargoed work
<sarnold> with libteam MIR after that, if there's time
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I need to finish up rust 1.22 updates this week. There are currently 3 separate failures I need to investigate, and one of these looks like it might be the "rust builds fail randomly in launchpad" issue I had last time
<chrisccoulson> which I worked around by continually hitting retry until it built
<chrisccoulson> I've got an embargoed update to prepare
<chrisccoulson> I should be able to look at this apparmor / audit work this week
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> I'm on community this week
<ratliff> Other than that I am still working on two internal assignments and an embargoed issue.
<ratliff> on to you, leosilva
<leosilva> I'm on CVE-triage this week.
<leosilva> I just published curl for precise
<leosilva> I'll do my normal hunting too and some research.
<leosilva> that's it for me. tyhicks it's back to you!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sun-javadb.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/yaml-cpp.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/most.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/git-hub.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libuser.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  4 16:57:30 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-04-16.42.moin.txt
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<leosilva> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks! :)
<handsome_feng> Hi, Is it time for meeting?
<rbasak> Yes. Who's here?
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> I am here
<jbicha> o/
<micahg_work> o/
<sil2100> Who's chairing today?
<sil2100> Should I?
<rbasak> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Dec  4 19:05:11 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
 * rbasak volunteers
<sil2100> rbasak: \o/
<rbasak> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rbasak> jbicha to send out announcement email (done)
<rbasak> rbasak to handle ACL for osomon's chromium-browser upload rights (done)
<rbasak> #info All previous action items complete
<rbasak> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<rbasak> #subtopic handsome_feng for some Kylin/UKUI related PPU
<rbasak> handsome_feng: hello! Could you start by introducing yourself please?
<handsome_feng> Sure, hello,everyone, I'm handsome_feng, I've been an member of ubuntu kylin for more than 3 years, my main duties these days are the maintenance of UKUI and other kylin packages, my PPU application is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/handsome_feng/DeveloperApplication-PPU, and sorry for my poor english,  I may reply you a bit slowly. Thanks! :)
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/handsome_feng/DeveloperApplication-PPU
<rbasak> Questions for handsome_feng?
<micahg_work> handsome_feng, I noticed that https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ukui-screensaver/1.0.3-0ubuntu1 was prepared before UI freeze and uploaded afterwards, can you explain how Ubuntu Kylin treats UI freeze and if this was an exception?
<jbicha> happyaron: I'm curious whether you're present for the application
<happyaron> yes I'm here
<jbicha> thanks
<handsome_feng> micahg_work: Yes, I understand the UI freeze: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze, and this is aan exception, since I didn't find a sponner before the UI freeze. And I'm sorry for that. I will prepared the packages more early!
<bdmurray> handsome_feng: Have you uploaded any stable release updates?
<handsome_feng> bdmurray: No, I understand the SRU prosess: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates, and because the formar version of ubuntu kylin only add some packages on Ubuntu such as youker-assistant, indicator-china-weather and so on, It didn't need an SRU.
<jbicha> handsome_feng: where do you find sponsors?
<handsome_feng> jbicha: I usually email to happyaron, and if not , I will fill a bug with the tag and subscribe the sponner team
 * rbasak has a couple of questions if the others are done
<jbicha> handsome_feng: ok, I encourage you to go ahead and file the bug right away especially when getting close to Ubuntu release deadlines
<jbicha> someone else may sponsor it from the queue before Aron gets around to it
<jbicha> handsome_feng: do you know anything about becoming a Debian Maintainer? is that something you intend to apply for?
<handsome_feng> jbicha: I have read the https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/, and yes, I want to be that. :)
<handsome_feng> I want to apply the upload right for ukui packages
<jbicha> thanks, I understand. I think Aron can help you later with the process to become a Debian Maintainer
<handsome_feng> jbicha: Thanks, and I will try to learn more.
<rbasak> handsome_feng: I believe that if I install ukui-screensaver, that will also install ubuntukylin-default-settings because ukui-screensaver depends on ukui-session-manager. Is this correct?
<handsome_feng> yes
<rbasak> Since ubuntukylin-default-settings changes the default Firefox search engine, I find this result surprising. I wouldn't expect to install a screensaver package and have my search engine change as a consequence.
<rbasak> Do you have any opinion on this?
<handsome_feng> Our parter request this, and I think we can delete this, or make it suguessed.
<handsome_feng> Sorry for that
<rbasak> Don't worry, I don't expect the packages to be bug free.
<rbasak> I'm asking because I'd like to understand your own understanding of the packages for which you're requesting PPU.
<rbasak> If you wanted to fix this, how would you change the dependencies?
<handsome_feng> move the ubuntukylin-default-settings from depends to suggest, or just delete it
<rbasak> OK, thank you. That answers my first question.
<rbasak> BTW, the reason I came across this was https://askubuntu.com/questions/970219/123-sogou-com-trojan-horse-in-ukui-screensaver/970220#970220
<rbasak> My second question: can you give me an example of something you may need to check and fix after you make an upload?
<handsome_feng> rbasak, I will answer that, There is an other way.
<handsome_feng>  verify that the package builds fine in -proposed, test out of -proposed and monitor autopkgtest runs
<rbasak> OK thank you
<rbasak> I don't have any more questions.
<rbasak> Any further questions from anyone else?
<bdmurray> Not from me
<cyphermox> No questions
<rbasak> sil2100, jbicha: any further questions?
<sil2100> I'm good
<jbicha> just a momentâ¦
<flexiondotorg> Evening.
<cyphermox> actually
<flexiondotorg> UKUI is base on MATE. I worked with handsome_feng when UKUI was originally uploaded.
<cyphermox> handsome_feng: you're not asking for kylin-greeter?
<handsome_feng> Yes, I think this time I already apply too much
<flexiondotorg> He understands the relationship between the compoents well and I'd be happy to see him have upload rights for UKUI so they aren't beholden to seeking sponsorship.
<rbasak> Thanks flexiondotorg! That's helpful
<handsome_feng> flexiondotorg: Thanks !
<flexiondotorg> Thanks to jbicha for letting me know this discussion was taking place :-)
<rbasak> jbicha, cyphermox: anything further?
<cyphermox> nope
<jbicha> can I have a few more minutes? I'm still thinking and looking into uploads
<jbicha> sorry for the delay
<rbasak> OK
<jbicha> rbasak: ok, I'm ready now
<JackYu> Hi,  everyone, I'm Jack Yu from Ubuntu Kylin team. I'd like to support he have uploads rights for UKUI:).
<rbasak> jbicha: ready to vote? Or ask a question? :)
<jbicha> rbasak: I'm done asking questions :)
<rbasak> JackYu: thanks
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> #vote Grant handsome_feng PPU to ukui-menu, ukui-indicators, ukui-control-center, ukui-session-manager, ukui-screensaver, peony, ukui-desktop-environment
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant handsome_feng PPU to ukui-menu, ukui-indicators, ukui-control-center, ukui-session-manager, ukui-screensaver, peony, ukui-desktop-environment
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<jbicha> I hate voting no, but I would like to see you do some SRUs first and it doesn't look to me like the need for sponsorship is holding Ubuntu Kylin back much yet
<jbicha> I encourage you to use other sponsors besides Aron, especially for the SRUs to have more variety
<handsome_feng> Thank jbicha, I will.
<jbicha> -1 please re-apply after doing some SRUs
<meetingology> -1 please re-apply after doing some SRUs received from jbicha
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> +1, I would like to see some more SRUs as well, but currently I see no blockers in knowledge or skill
<meetingology> +1, I would like to see some more SRUs as well, but currently I see no blockers in knowledge or skill received from sil2100
<bdmurray> +1 as SRUs would get reviewed by the SRU team anyway
<meetingology> +1 as SRUs would get reviewed by the SRU team anyway received from bdmurray
<rbasak> +1 I consider happyaron's endorsement to be the key decider, given he has been handsome_feng's primary sponsor.
<meetingology> +1 I consider happyaron's endorsement to be the key decider, given he has been handsome_feng's primary sponsor. received from rbasak
<rbasak> I believe micahg had to step away.
<rbasak> That's everyone I think?
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant handsome_feng PPU to ukui-menu, ukui-indicators, ukui-control-center, ukui-session-manager, ukui-screensaver, peony, ukui-desktop-environment
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> handsome_feng: congratulations!
<rbasak> And thank you for your continued contributions, of course.
<happyaron> congrats handsome_feng
<jbicha> handsome_feng: thank you and keep up the good work!
<JackYu> thanks, every one!
<handsome_feng> Thank you all \o/
<ypwong> handsome_feng, congrats
<rbasak> Any volunteers to follow the successful application checklist?
<maclin> thanks, every one!
<rbasak> #action rbasak to arrange handsome_feng's PPU changes
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to arrange handsome_feng's PPU changes
<rbasak> #action rbasak to announce handsome_feng successful application
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to announce handsome_feng successful application
<rbasak> #info handsome_feng's application was successful
<rbasak> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<rbasak> "Please add new MATE applications to my MATE package set"
<rbasak> flexiondotorg: is this still outstanding?
<rbasak> Let's move on for now
<rbasak> #info Carried forward
<rbasak> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<rbasak> #subtopic Regenerate packagesets and create one for Ubuntu Budgie
<rbasak> Regeneration would cover the MATE request I think?
<jbicha> cyphermox: ^
<cyphermox> blocked on TB creating the Budgie packageset; otherwise I'd need to move some more code around in the packageset generation
<cyphermox> we might as well really do it right once.
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<rbasak> Does that cover flexiondotorg's request also?
<jbicha> cyphermox: I guess we might as well make a Kylin packageset too at the same time?
<rbasak> It already is one; I checked.
<jbicha> oh I see http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/bionic/ubuntukylin
<cyphermox> rbasak: it will cover flexiondotorg's request too
<sil2100> Are we done?
<sil2100> I guess we need to do endmeeting :)
<rbasak> Sorry!
<rbasak> Let's end the meeting
<rbasak> Assuming there are no objections to 18 December for the next meeting.
<rbasak> If there are objections, please raise it on the list.
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Dec  4 20:26:51 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-04-19.05.moin.txt
<sil2100> rbasak: thanks for chairing!
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-07
<rbalint> o/
<rcj> o/
<sil2100> o/
<Odd_Bloke> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<fginther> \o
<fginther> o/ (sorry)
<cyphermox> who chairs?
<cyphermox> heh, I will
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  7 16:03:15 2017 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<cyphermox> tdaitx fginther xnox tribaal philroche mwhudson rcj bdmurray Odd_Bloke infinity rbalint cyphermox doko slangasek sil2100
<sil2100> Phew, win
<cyphermox> is tdaitx around at all?
<cyphermox> heh
<cyphermox> fginther:
<fginther> (we'll come back if he shows)
<fginther> * Fixing an issue causing duplicate image lists in the cloud images header
<fginther> * Updated our manual publication documentation for a partner cloud
<fginther> * Updated the naming pattern for the minimal images in our CI pipeline
<fginther> * Fixed a path issue related to resolv.conf in a partner image
<fginther> * Fixed a clock drift issue that was breaking publication to a partner cloud
<fginther> * Reviewed Secure Boot on UEFI document
<fginther> * Poked around on AWS's updated Cloud9 service
<fginther> (done)
<fginther> Tribaal, you're up
<cyphermox> xnox is on vacation
<Tribaal> * Partner work, in particular GKE stuff.
<Tribaal> * Prepared an SRU for the vagrant user changes into Xenial (LP:1569237)
<Tribaal> * Some UEFI work and tests for partners
<Tribaal> (done)
<philroche> * AWS re:Invent last week
<gaughen> o/
<philroche> * Work on partner cloud image changes
<philroche> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> rcj:
<rcj> * cloud-image build system care and feeding
<rcj> * cloud-image partner meetings
<rcj> * Added NVMe io_timeout tuning to AWS EC2 cloud images (16.04 and later) per http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/nvme-ebs-volumes.html#timeout-nvme-ebs-volumes
<rcj> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Finished work on boot speed metric gathering
<Odd_Bloke> * Adding a metric to allow us to track Docker Hub image age
<Odd_Bloke> * A variety of partner work
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> rbalint:
<Odd_Bloke> (No infinity in the channel.)
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> infinity is away too afaik
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * gce-compute-image-packages updates
<rbalint> * livecd-rootfs fixes
<rbalint> * internal testbed setup
<rbalint> (done)
<cyphermox> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - netplan SRU validation
<cyphermox> - investigate d-i crashes reported by powers.j (LP: #1736770)
<cyphermox> - document UEFI SB design in wiki (wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot)
<cyphermox> - shim review / harass Peter to approve our shim
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1736770 in linux (Ubuntu) "debian-installer/main-menu changes priority" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1736770
<cyphermox> - quick review of NM DNS/search patch
<cyphermox> - grub TSC bugfix for some new Intel systems (LP: #1734278)
<cyphermox> - preparing SRU for TSC bugfix
<cyphermox> - investigating grub/shim/maas bug in chainloading from MAAS.
<cyphermox> HIGHLIGHT: our shim is reviewed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1734278 in grub2 (Ubuntu Xenial) "Grub2 cannot boot up when 8254 time function disable" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1734278
<cyphermox> LOWLIGHT: we don't have the email to track that yet.
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> doko?
<doko> - analyzed Python2 demotion from main, excluding OpenStack
<doko>   - filed ~50 bug reports, 35 still open
<doko>   - fixed the easy ones, worked on the seeds, pinged other teams
<doko>   - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=py2-demotion
<doko> - python 3.6.4rc1 release candidate, 3.7.0 alpha
<doko> - gcc-7 update
<doko> - archive maintenance, finished some open transitions
<doko> - packaged icedtea 2.6.12 (OpenJDK 7)
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox> no slangasek
<cyphermox> sil2100:
<sil2100> uh oh
<sil2100> - Regular SRU work
<sil2100> - New kernel SRU cycle (CVE respin)
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Pushing u-i 1.3 to devel and stable series
<sil2100>   * Investigating absurd armhf ADT failure - it's magic
<sil2100>   * Fighting with trying to run the bionic armhf envionment - nothing working, wasted time
<sil2100> - Ripping out the deprecated Bileto -gles support
<sil2100> - Looking into how Bileto handles britney
<sil2100> - Preparing some test-image stuff for T-Systems
<sil2100> - Updated uvp-monitor to 2.2.0.316, SRUed it to xenial and trusty
<sil2100> (done)
<rcj> * HIGHLIGHT: Added NVMe io_timeout tuning to AWS EC2 cloud images (16.04 and later) per http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/nvme-ebs-volumes.html#timeout-nvme-ebs-volumes
<sil2100> (bad day today)
<rcj> ^ forgot to mark it before
<cyphermox> rcj: thanks!
<cyphermox> ok, next up
<cyphermox> #topic http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<cyphermox> woops
<cyphermox> tdaitx: your lightning round?
<cyphermox> alright, no tdaitx after all
<cyphermox> Bug review?
<cyphermox> are we quorate to do this?
<cyphermox> nothing new / changed in the Criticals/Highs
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1721839
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1721839 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Services asked for by UDEV do not get triggered" [High,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> what about this one?
<cyphermox> nobody is chiming up, let's punt to next week
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> any other business?
<rbalint> (HIGHLIGHT)i was working on Hibernation of spot agent in EC2 but i could not talk about it :-)
<cyphermox> rbalint: thanks!
<rbalint> .. of spot instances ..
<cyphermox> that's it then
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  7 16:19:21 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-07-16.03.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone!
<Tribaal> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<elacheche> flexiondotorg, elopio, ahoneybun, jose, marcoceppi, wxl: are you going to join the meeting? It's in 10 minutes.
<elopio> I am.
 * Kilos lurks
<ahoneybun> I'm around
<ahoneybun> just need a link to it
<elopio> hello Kilos, feel free to participate too.
<elopio> ahoneybun: https://community.ubuntu.com/t/call-for-topics-community-council-meeting-20171207/2571
<Kilos> i have been quiet for many months elopio so ill try catch up
<ahoneybun> thanks so -meetings
<elacheche> So, we start in 2min
<elacheche> #startmeeting Community Council meeting: 20171207
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  7 17:01:17 2017 UTC.  The chair is elacheche. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic:
<elacheche> Hello everybody to the CC meeting.. Present CC members, please raise hands.. In meanwhile I'll share some links
<elacheche> Today's agenda â https://community.ubuntu.com/t/call-for-topics-community-council-meeting-20171207/2571
<elacheche> Last meeting summary â https://community.ubuntu.com/t/community-council-meeting-20171116/1349
<elopio> hello, thanks elacheche for leading this one.
<elacheche> With pleasure
<elopio> ahoneybun: are you going to participate?
<elacheche> everyone around, please review  the 2 links, then we will proceed with reviewing progress from last meeting
<elopio> it doesn't seem that we have quorum, but we can at least get the conversations started, and the rest can comment on the hub afterwards.
<elacheche> elopio: afaik, the quorum is just for votes, we will not vote, we will discuss things, then move them to somewhere else for detailled discussion then vote later on hub or here in an other meeting
<elopio> ok
<elacheche> Both of us already read the links, let's wait an other 4min, before starting the discussion, maybe someone else is reviewing them :)
<elacheche> #topic Update of the action items from the previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic: Update of the action items from the previous meeting
<elacheche> So, let's talk about actions from last meeting
<elacheche> #subtopic @popey and @elacheche to start a discussion about the wiki
<popey> Sorry, it's on my to-do but is a big topic so not had time to get to it.
<popey> Big as in, will need some research and thought before I post.
 * jose waves
<elacheche> So, I didn't talk to popey about that.. But, I was talking to some floks from my LoCo that are interested to join the talk, people like nzoueidi, nizarus, pavlushka, I think that Kilos will be interested to join the discussion as well
<popey> Maybe it's worth me starting the discussion and point at an etherpad doc or something so we can work on it together
<popey> Sure, I imagine quite a few people want to join in :)
<pavlushka> o/
<elacheche> popey: That's what I was about to suggest, just start the discussion somewhere (HUB or public ML), then we can invit people to join the brainstorming
<popey> ok
<elopio> I think we shouldn't hurry, because if we start with the wrong foot the discussion could be not productive at all. So, I'd say you two should take as long as needed, or wait until you have less tasks.
<elopio> hello pavlushka
<pavlushka> Hello elopio :)
<elopio> jose: are you going to participate in this meeting?
 * pavlushka waves to popey 
<ahoneybun> heyo folks
<jose> yep going up the stairs to a chair and wifi
<elacheche> welcome pavlushka ahoneybun jose :)
<pavlushka> hey ahoneybun :)
<elacheche> I agree with elopio.. popey can we discuss this in PM during the next 2 weeks, so we can come back with an action roadmap for the next Dec meeting?
<pavlushka> ty elacheche
<popey> Sure
<ahoneybun> heyo pavlushka and elacheche
<elacheche> Great.. So our next task is to create an action roadmap then share it during the next meeting.
<elopio> thanks popey and elacheche
<elacheche> Any other thoughts, ideas about this topic, or we can check the next one?
<jose> yay here
<elacheche> jose: any comments? :)
<jose> nope. not atm. I'll forward them once I catch up. let's move on :)
<elacheche> OK, let's move on..
<elacheche> #subtopic UCADay
<jose> don't wanna stall you for being late
<elacheche> The next action from last meeting was the UCADay.. and I think thatI t was a success
<elacheche> You can check https://twitter.com/hashtag/ucaday?f=tweets&vertical=default&src=hash
<elopio> I agree, lots of people making the work of each other visible.
<elacheche> I don't know if someone partitipated in other social networks or not, I'm not a heavy user of anything other than twitter & diaspora.. elopio do ou have more details about this?
<jose> I saw G+ as well
<elopio> the Ubuntu accounts in every social network were full of likes
<elacheche> Great!
<elopio> what's great of this is that the work we do starts attracting more people, and then our calls for action get more hands.
<elacheche> Should we do a follow up action.. Like an early reminder for next year ucaday or something else?
<elopio> I think we should try to get a very noisy event once a month. Last month ucaday, this month google code-in, we need to think of something for january.
<jose> to keep the gears moving, that's a good one
<elacheche> +1
<ahoneybun> I think we could do a community member day in each month or couple months
<jose> I think we should check the calendar of yearly events
<ahoneybun> as well
<jose> get in touch with the LC to figure out days for the global jam and such, and get a 'featured global event' each month
<jose> and since we're about to start next year, we can set probably 'featured global events' for Q1
<jose> and work on them each Q
 * elacheche is wondering why jose is in his head x)
<jose> lol
<Kilos> lol
<jose> great minds think alike
<elacheche> I tottally agree with that
<ahoneybun> Global Jam is in Feb right?
<elacheche> we should list global events
<elopio> lets open a topic on the hub to receive proposals for the calendar next year, trying to spread the events to have at least once a month.
<jose> Global Jam is up to the LC I believe, not sure
<jose> as far as I remember when I was in the LC we set the dates
<elacheche> jose: The Global Jam is when the Beta1 is released
<jose> got it
<elacheche> So the next gloabl jam should be in "March 8th"
<jose> that could be our March 'ftg'
<jose> 'fge' sorry, didn't sleep yesterday
<elacheche> The LC just add that event to the LoCo dir, so LoCos can add it as localevent and we can have insight about who's running it
<jose> yep, and we can have a blog post on the planet each month to announce the event
<jose> the planet has huge reach outside the community as well, good place to get contributors from
<elacheche> On the fridge, will be better I guess :D
<jose> yep. fridge can go to planet
<elacheche> yep
<elacheche> Any other thoughts about ucaday and global events?
<jose> I'm set for now
<elopio> nothing else here.
<elacheche> So, UCADay was a success, and we should plan a monthly global event to communicate about it.. So the next action is to plan and list global events for the 2018 Q1.. I am right or I forget about something?
<jose> I think that's it
 * elacheche will see if meetingology still have the action command, so we can have a more visible log later
<jose> it should
<jose> I haven't touched it
<elacheche> #action Plan and list global events for the 2018 Q1..
<meetingology> ACTION: Plan and list global events for the 2018 Q1..
<elacheche> Next subtopic
<elacheche> #subtopic @wxl to announce the new loco council and help with the transition.
<elacheche> It's well done.. Thanks wxl :)
<elacheche> Any comments about that?
<jose> oo, about that
<jose> I'd say we should check in with the LC after they've held their first meeting to see how they're doing
<elacheche> Maybe if wxl is around he can share news about the transition
<jose> and if we can give a hand or they have questions
<elacheche> I agree with that
<elopio> yes, let's make an action topic to tell wxl to send an update on the transition to the hub.
<elacheche> The next public meeting will be Dev 11, 2017.. (I know because my LoCo re-verification is that day) x) :D
<elopio> I can bother him until he makes the post :)
<elacheche> :D
<pavlushka> elacheche: good luck with that
<elacheche> #action Contact LC after theire 1st meeting and ask if we can help on something, ask wxl to send an update on the transition to the hub.
<meetingology> ACTION: Contact LC after theire 1st meeting and ask if we can help on something, ask wxl to send an update on the transition to the hub.
<elacheche> other thougths?
<jose> that's it from me
<ahoneybun> no comment on the monthly community member ?
<elopio> monthly community member sounds good to me.
<elopio> do you want to take lead that ahoneybun ?
<ahoneybun> highlights a member's work
<elacheche> ahoneybun: That will be with the planning for 2018 Q1 global event I guess :)
<ahoneybun> I can make a draft
<elacheche> Great ahoneybun
<elacheche> #action Plan and list global events for the 2018 Q1, ahoneybun will make a draft about a "monthly community member" event
<meetingology> ACTION: Plan and list global events for the 2018 Q1, ahoneybun will make a draft about a "monthly community member" event
<elacheche> anyr comments about LC ?
<elacheche> s/anyr/any
<elopio> nop.
<elacheche> We move on then
<elacheche> #subtopic @Wimpress (aka flexiondotorg ) to investigate about publishing the community council RSS from the hub to the planet.
<elopio> I don't think he's around. Let's ask him to update in the hub topic too.
<elacheche> I don't know if anyone else have updates about this.. flexiondotorg can't be with us today..
<elacheche> Last time we talked about this, we find that the HUB have a RSS feed for each category, but we were not sure what the planet will sync if we add that RSS to it
<elacheche> So, I guess the only way to figure that out, is to host a private planet and test it, or just add the RSS feed to the live planet and see what will be synched or not.. I'm not sure if we remove the feed after that the content will be removed from the planet or not
<wxl> too early for me :(
<elacheche> No problm wxl you can check logs later, and you can discuss with us the current subtopic :)
<wxl> trying to find it XD
<wxl> seems we don't post the usual format of meeting logs so i'll just go off of the summary
<wxl> i.e. https://community.ubuntu.com/t/community-council-meeting-20171116/1349
<wxl> so:
<elacheche> #action flexiondotorg will share updates about  "publishing the community council RSS from the hub to the planet." in a HUB topic
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg will share updates about  "publishing the community council RSS from the hub to the planet." in a HUB topic
<wxl>  * still haven't seen a thread about wiki migration, unless i'm blind
<wxl>  * need to hear back from flexiondotorg on the marketing guerilla campaign, i think
<elopio> wxl: the bot posts the meeting logs when the meeting is over.
<jose> next up?
<elopio> I'm sorry, but it's almost an hour here. Can we go a little faster please?
<jose> this meeting's supposed to be 2h long though
<elacheche> elopio: The fridge calaneder say that we can have 2 hours :D
<jose> but yep, what's next on the list?
<elacheche> #subtopic @elopio to make a proposal for multilanguage in the hub.
 * elopio makes a note to propose to change the meetings to 1h.
<wxl> elopio: but that's not in the link to the full conversation
<wxl> the link comes after #endmeeting and it appears that's where the logs end
<jose> it's supposed to be 2h first meeting of the month, 1h second meeting of the month
<jose> but if we vote and agree on moving all to 1h, I can change it on the fridge right now
<jose> I have access
<elopio> wxl: take a look at the topics on the hub for the meetings, the full conversation is posted there. Not sure what you mean.
<elacheche> I think we better plan that for an other meeting :) :D
<elopio> ok, I made the multilanguages proposals in the hub. One is for posts in a language that's not english. The other is for posts that are translated to multiple languages.
<elacheche> Or we should discuss it in hub or ml and ask all CC to vote
<elacheche> Any follow up actions elopio ?
<elopio> we have been experimenting with this, and it works reasonably well. But there's a huge problem with languages that are right-to-left.
<jose> ok, I'll take an action item to send an email to discuss changing meetings from 2h to 1h
<elopio> elacheche: just, keep insisting on people to post in their languages when it's relevant, to invite more people into the community. We will keep experimenting and adjusting.
<elacheche> OK elopio :)
<elacheche> +1 jose
<elacheche> More comments about this subtopic or we move to the next topic?
<wxl> move on
<elacheche> So, we're good with updates about actions from last meeting, we go back to todays agenda
<elacheche> #topic Google Code-in updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic: Google Code-in updates
<elacheche> elopio: I think you have updates about that?
<elopio> This has been amazing. Already 170 tasks completed, more in progress
<elopio> we have seen code contributions, translations, tutorials, and I guess many more things because I'm only looking at the 20 snapcraft tasks
<elopio> if you haven't mentored anybody yet, I recommend you to do it. It's very nice to see these young people enjoying ubuntu and the work we are doing.
<ahoneybun> is there a way to look at the tasks done and to be done?
<elopio> we still have one month to go, so new tasks can be added. And please, promote the event so more students can join.
<wxl> it's all on google code-in, ahoneybun
<ahoneybun> tried looking myself a min ago
<jose> codein.withgoogle.com
<elacheche> It's good to hear that elopio
<elacheche> elopio: Can you write a blog/fridge  post about that? We can use the post to promote the event..
<elopio> also, I'm having problems to find mentors in other languages. I'm trying to build a list of trusted translators that will help us review the multilanguage projects
<elopio> if you know somebody who speaks romanian, please let me know.
<jose> *sighs* language barriers :/
<ahoneybun> elopio: I do know someone
<jose> say hi to him from me ;)
<elopio> elacheche: I'm too busy with work and mentoring these days, so no, no post yet. I have to write a summary about the snapcraft experience when we finish.
<elacheche> OK, no problem..
<elacheche> #action Promote the google code-in event
<meetingology> ACTION: Promote the google code-in event
<elopio> introduce me please ahoneybun
<wxl> fwiw kubutu just had a meeting about onboarding more packagers and creating some tutorials, etc. and i mentioned google code-in as a potential resource to use with that
<ahoneybun> elopio: he hangs around in #kubuntu-devel
<wxl> also lubuntu has been kind of busy, but we have it on our task list to add some events
<wxl> meanwhile i've been hanging out in #ubuntu-google a bit here and there
<elacheche> cool.. any actions to add about gci?
<elopio> just the recommendation to join as a mentors
<elacheche> #action Promote the google code-in event to the public, and recommend community memebrs to join as mentors
<meetingology> ACTION: Promote the google code-in event to the public, and recommend community memebrs to join as mentors
<elacheche> Next topic
<elacheche> #topic Deal with the CC ML spams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic: Deal with the CC ML spams
<wxl> right now, afaik, the list is unmoderated
<jose> uh, not much we could do there because of that
<jose> canonical spam filter is already getting a bunch of it
<wxl> ^^
<elacheche> For this, we should talk to marcoceppi_ to have the ML get emails only from members
<elacheche> and he will need to check every other email and allow it or not to go to the ml
<jose> uh
<wxl> i would happily deal with that
<jose> I think that'd be a challenge+problem
<wxl> every other council does that
<jose> I believe the reason why it is unmoderated is because we wanted to be easily reachable
<jose> and people were discouraged from emailing us due to getting that 'in moderation' email
<wxl> but if inboxes are filled with spam, how easily reachable are we?
<wxl> when?
<wxl> again, the loco council and the membership board both operate this way
<elacheche> In my LoCo ML we accept emails only from memebrs, everything else is in hold until the ml admin approve or remove it
<jose> previous CC iirc. I can ask around why they opened it up
<jose> because it was moderated before, but they changed it
<jose> there *has* to be a reason why
<wxl> we should be able to change the moderation message template
<elacheche> wxl: marcoceppi_ is able to do that as he's the ml admin
<wxl> OR we could do what flexiondotorg suggested and move it to the hub
<jose> I'd suggest holding it off until we find out why they opened it up. I can take it as an action item
<jose> but that's just my opinion
<elacheche> #action jose will investigate why old CC opened the ML for everyone
<meetingology> ACTION: jose will investigate why old CC opened the ML for everyone
 * elacheche statts to lose caffeine in his blood stream, and start to miss read/write things x(
<wxl> meanwhile i SEEM to remember that flexiondotorg was giong to investigate how the hub might work so we should check in with him on that
<elacheche> OK.. I guess until jose investigates that we can't do big thing, if we will vote later on turn on moderation we can ping marcoceppi_ to do that..
<jose> up to you guys
<jose> we can close it off if you'd like while I investigate
<jose> was just my point of view
<elacheche> wxl: yep, that should be the next topic
<elacheche> jose: we better investigate then vote about what to do :)
<wxl> elacheche: i meant specifically as it relates to this current topic
<elacheche> flexiondotorg: can't be with us today.. So we need to ask him later I guess :/
<wxl> make an action item for him?
<elacheche> OK, the next topic is all about that wxl :D can we move on to the next topic? Or there is other coments about this one?
<wxl> carry on
<elacheche> #topic Create a private HUB category for CC to use instead of ML
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic: Create a private HUB category for CC to use instead of ML
<wxl> so NOW make the action item. :)
<wxl> i don't think any of us have investigated this
<wxl> i'll also say that we should investigate this only if two other conditions are true:
<elacheche> I don't remember that flexiondotorg said that he will investigate this :D But it's his task until he mention that he do'nt want to do it :D
<wxl> well, one condition
<wxl> that for some reason or another we cannot "resolve" the mailing list issue as previously discussed
<elacheche> #action flexiondotorg will investigate how the hub might work so we should check in with him on that
<meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg will investigate how the hub might work so we should check in with him on that
<wxl> that may be because we believe we should not moderate the list or that in some way we cannot provide a solution that would work for the community
<wxl> that said, we need to wait for jose before even doing that action
<elacheche> To be honest, I'm not a fun of the HUB, and I like the ML and the wiki more than the HUB..
<elacheche> jose elopio comments on this topic?
<wxl> the hub is a great tool, and a lot of people are using it, but we don't NEED to use it foreverything
<wxl> i mean unless you can play doom on it..
<elacheche> +42 wxl
<elacheche> OK, we move on to the last topic, unless someone disagree
<elacheche> #topic Create a list of CC ressources and make clear the usage of each.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Community Council meeting: 20171207 | Current topic: Create a list of CC ressources and make clear the usage of each.
<jose> I'd say +1 wxl
<elopio> I will only keep insisting that we should have only public discussions every time somebody starts a private one. That's my comment :)
<jose> ^ big -1 on that one
<wxl> i believe that there is a time and a place for a private discussion, but not the vast majority of things
<jose> I have to drop now, but I'll check + comment once we're done. sorry guys
<jose> o/
<jose> feel free to ping me if you need me
<wxl> also there's some things that don't have enough bearing on people that decision making needs to be done by everyone
<elacheche> This one is my idea, I think that we need to list ALL CC ressources in one place, by ressources I mean things like ML, IRC, HUB, Trello, etc.. And come up with a clear description that tells why we need each of them and when we need to use any of them
<wxl> do it :)
<elacheche> OK then
<elopio> elacheche: like,
<elacheche> #action elacheche will investigate CC ressources (ML,IRC, HUB, Trello, Wiki, etc) and list them all in one place (HUB or/and wiki page)
<meetingology> ACTION: elacheche will investigate CC ressources (ML,IRC, HUB, Trello, Wiki, etc) and list them all in one place (HUB or/and wiki page)
<elopio> updating and completing this text? https://community.ubuntu.com/t/what-is-the-ubuntu-community-council/706
<wxl> yes
<elacheche> Yes, why not..
<elacheche> #link https://community.ubuntu.com/t/what-is-the-ubuntu-community-council/706
<elacheche> OK, I'll start investigating that.. Any ideas about this topic?
<Kilos> hmm...
<wxl> after we have the list, let's make an agenda item to discuss the value of each of them
<elacheche> #action Once the list is ready we need to add an agenda item to  discuss the value of each of them
<meetingology> ACTION: Once the list is ready we need to add an agenda item to  discuss the value of each of them
 * elacheche start losing focus x) :D
<wxl> i'm ready ot move on
<elacheche> agenda is clear.. If we have nothing else to discuss we can end this meeting wxl elopio
<wxl> i have one thing if i may
<elacheche> go ahead
<wxl> and that's the time. i realize what the problem is. daylight savings time. unfortunately 17 UTC is not the same time all year round in the US and other countries with DST
<elopio> I have one, after wxl
<wxl> that said, can we either push out the time during DST or, alternately, push it out to 18 UTC ad infinitum?
<elacheche> wxl: jose already sent a mail about changing this meeting to be 1h meeting, I think we can discuss the time in the same thread as well and vote there.. what do you think?
<wxl> elacheche: sure! 2h is a bit long to commit to, too, fwiw.
<wxl> but that's less of my concern :)
<elacheche> Yep.. We cna discuss both issues in one thred  :D
<elacheche> That way every CC memebr can vote via ML :)
<elacheche> Or you can start a new thread wxl
<elacheche> elopio: go ahead
<elopio> The google summer of code has been announced already
<elopio> organizations have to apply on january 4th. Does somebody have experience applying to this?
<wxl> no :(
<elopio> popey: are you still around? Are you left with enought strength after code-in to do it again? :)
<elacheche> I don't but we can investigate it..
<elacheche> #action investigate how to apply to GSoc (deadline Jan 4th, 2018)
<meetingology> ACTION: investigate how to apply to GSoc (deadline Jan 4th, 2018)
<elacheche> I am sure that popey will come back to us with an answer later :)
<elacheche> In meawhile, if we have nothing else to discuss, we will end the meeting
<elacheche> s/will/can/
<elacheche> x(
<elacheche> #action elacheche will post meetning summary on the hub asap
<meetingology> ACTION: elacheche will post meetning summary on the hub asap
<elopio> elacheche: the deadline is not the 4th. On the 4th the registrations are open.
<elopio> thanks for the summaries elacheche.
<elopio> I am sorry I posted the summary of the past meeting so late.
<elacheche> so we better we investigate it before the 4th ;)
<elopio> elacheche: so, I proposed that everybody should lead the meetings of a whole month. Can you please also post a call for topics for the next meeting?
<elacheche> I'll try to share the summary before the weekend
<elopio> and for january, we need wxl, jose, ahoneybun or marcoceppi_ to lead.
<elacheche> #action elacheche will post call for meeting for the next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: elacheche will post call for meeting for the next meeting
<wxl> i vote that the previous lead nominate the remaining members :)
<elacheche> #action add to next meeting agenda, vote on January meeting chair
<meetingology> ACTION: add to next meeting agenda, vote on January meeting chair
 * wxl notices the target on his back
<elacheche> wxl: if I will nomiate I'll nomiate you :D x) :p But that's a task for the next meeting anyways :p
<elacheche> shall we end the meeting?
<elacheche> meeting ends in:
<elacheche> 10
<elacheche> 9
<elacheche> 8
<elacheche> 7
<elacheche> 6
<elacheche> 5
<elacheche> 4
<elacheche> 3
<elacheche> 2
<elacheche> 1
<elacheche> 0
<elacheche> Thnaks elopio wxl popey ahoneybun jose Kilos pavlushka for being here..
<elopio> thanks people!
<Kilos> cool beans guys. nice to see the new council in action
<wxl> yep exciting stuff :)
<elacheche> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  7 18:49:14 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-07-17.01.moin.txt
<pavlushka> anytime elacheche  :p
<Kilos> elacheche get a 1 or 2 litre flash for your coffee
<Kilos> flask
<elacheche> :D
<Kilos> well done, nice meeting
<Kilos> glad to see wxl still going strong too
 * genii sweeps up all the confetti and washes out the coffeepot
<Kilos> genii
<Kilos> how are you
<Kilos> and and and i didnt get any'
<genii> Kilos: I'm well, thanks :)
 * genii slides Kilos an espresso
<Kilos> thank you my lifesaver
<genii> Any time, sir
<Kilos> :-)
<pleia2> o/
<Wild_Man> o/
<powersj> o/
<Wild_Man> good to see you powersj
<powersj> thanks
<Wild_Man> we will get started in a couple of minutes waiting for a few others to show up
<Kilos> o/
<Wild_Man> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  7 20:03:57 2017 UTC.  The chair is Wild_Man. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<Wild_Man> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<Wild_Man> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<Wild_Man> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<Wild_Man> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<Wild_Man> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<Kilos> evening everyone
<pleia2> welcome powersj!
<Wild_Man> hello Kilos
<Kilos> hi powersj
<powersj> howdy
<Wild_Man> #topic powersj
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: powersj
<powersj> Does that mean I'm up? :)
<pleia2> it does :)
<powersj> wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/powersj
<Wild_Man> powersj, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<powersj> I work on the Canonical Server team as the QA engineer. I swap my time between the cloud-init and curtin development team where I work on the testing and quality of those projects and the Server team where I work on bug triage, SRUs, git-ubuntu, and general distribution test efforts.
<powersj> LP: https://launchpad.net/~powersj
<wxl> wow pictures and everything!
<pleia2> powersj: ah nice, you worked on HLinux for HPE, did you make it to the DebConf in Portland by any chance?
<powersj> :)
<pleia2> (I was over in the OpenStack team)
<powersj> I did not :(
<pleia2> shame, we probably haven't met then
<powersj> I was at next year's at Heidelberg where I presented on hlinux
<powersj> and this years in Montreal where I presented on cloud-init
<pleia2> cool
<pleia2> I see you're doing Ubuntu Server ISO testing, are you using the ISO tracker?
<blackboxsw> heh,just found power's video from debconf http://saimei.ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2017/debconf17/cloud-init-building-clouds-one-linux-box.vp9.webm
<powersj> I use when we do formal Alpha and Beta and Release tests, day to day I do not
 * pleia2 nods
<powersj> blackboxsw: :)
<pleia2> it could use some love, I'm always looking for an in on how to get improvements made ;)
<wxl> is there someone on the team who does it daily?
<powersj> wxl: I care for automated tests that gate the promotion of the amd64, i386, ppc64el daily server ISO. I try to check it daily to make sure no issues come up and if they do file bugs, pull in the right people, re-run tests, etc.
<powersj> This way we know the current daily server ISO is actually tested and working and if it is not getting promoted from pending to current then something is wrong.
<pleia2> that's good to hear
<wxl> powersj: excuse my ignorance but does that deal with automated installation tasks, or just make sure that the builds work?
<powersj> wxl: The test that gates promotion from pending to current does a preseeded install with the default options, so it won't check all the tasks, but some of them. After the default test, we launch a dozen more tests that check various tasks like mail server, lxd, etc.
<Wild_Man> #voters pleia2 Kilos wxl Wild_Man
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos Wild_Man pleia2 wxl
<Kilos> one question
<Kilos> powersj what took you so long to apply
<wxl> powersj: could you link me to the info on that test? i'm curious for my own purposes
<wxl> that said
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> +1
<Kilos> +1
<pleia2> oh, we haven't started yet XD
<wxl> i really have to give careful consideration to your application
<Kilos> haha
<powersj> wxl: these are the preseeds we use https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-qa/ubuntu-test-cases/server-tests-raring
<wxl> are your contributions consistent and significant?
<powersj> I can send you the jenkins jobs as well
<wxl> hmmmmm
<wxl> j/k btw :)
<Wild_Man> #vote
<meetingology> Please vote on:
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<powersj> Kilos: honestly I was trying to get server dev upload rights, but I seem to not be getting enough uploads lately :)
<wxl> powersj: let's chat after the meeting
<Kilos> +1
<Wild_Man> +1
<powersj> wxl: ok
<wxl> +1 and then some. wow. keep up the good work. and get all your similarly wonderful friends to apply for membership, too, while you're at it
<pleia2> +1
<powersj> thanks :)
<Kilos> great work powersj
<powersj> thank you
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<pleia2> hah
<nzoueidi> o/
<wxl> oh jeez
<Kilos> hi nzoueidi
<Kilos> whats up with the bot
<pleia2> Wild_Man: try #vote powersj membership
<nzoueidi> Hello Kilos
<Wild_Man> #vote powersj membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: powersj membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<pleia2> that's better :)
<Wild_Man> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Wild_Man
<Kilos> +1  great work
<meetingology> +1  great work received from Kilos
<wxl> +1 and then some. wow. keep up the good work. and get all your similarly wonderful friends to apply for membership, too, while you're at it
<meetingology> +1 and then some. wow. keep up the good work. and get all your similarly wonderful friends to apply for membership, too, while you're at it received from wxl
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: powersj membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Kilos> welcome to u bunt members powersj
<powersj> thank you all!
<wxl> powersj: hey before you go.. where's that jenkins instance running at? is that a canonical thing?
<Wild_Man> You earned it
<powersj> wxl: sadly the automated ISO tests are inside canonical, I am trying to get some more hardware for the public server jenkins (https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/) and get those moved over
<powersj> should happen in January or February
<pleia2> thanks for all your work powersj, and welcome :)
<powersj> want more public help and viewing of ISO tests :)
<powersj> pleia2: thank you
<wxl> powersj: i guess what i'm thinking is whether or not that jenkins instance could be something other flavors could make use of
<powersj> wxl: to block promotion of dailies?
<Wild_Man> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  7 20:23:45 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-12-07-20.03.moin.txt
<wxl> powersj: mayhap. i guess i'm still reeling from the fact that the jenkins instance exists :)
<powersj> haha
<pleia2> powersj: aw, your twitter account is wrong on the wiki, do you still have one?
<wxl> powersj: in other news i work mostly with lubuntu (and kubuntu) and noticed this bug affecting d-i that seems to also somehow affect server. i haven't had a chance to look into it more but you may want to peek https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debootstrap/+bug/1736309
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1736309 in debootstrap (Ubuntu) "installer failed missing dpkg_1.19.0.4ubuntu1_amd64.deb" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<powersj> pleia2: ah yeah I got rid of it :\ heh
<powersj> wxl: interesting that it broke both
<powersj> wxl: well how the automation works is we use Utah (https://launchpad.net/utah) to do automated preseed installs
<wxl> powersj: well we're the only two d-i users in the whole ubuntu ecosystem :)
<powersj> I assume that is for lubuntu?
<powersj> in either case I wouldn't be opposed to creating a daily job for them once the test get moved to the public instance
<wxl> yeah. d-i is used in our alternate installer for those folks with too little RAM to handle ubiquity
<wxl> that'd be cool
<powersj> how about I throw a reminder in my calendar to ping you after the new year on where I am at with the migration
<wxl> i mainly bring it to your attention because something about the tests may not be picking up on those failures
<wxl> sounds good
<wxl> i'd love to have a contact on the server team because man when we have issues with d-i we're sort of on our own
<powersj> :) hit me up
<wxl> will do
<wxl> nice meeting you and welcome to the club (officially) XD
<powersj> thank you :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-03
<slashd> o/
<rbasak> o/
<jbicha> \o
<rbasak> Anyone else?
<ddstreet> o/
<ddstreet> should be a quick mtg i think ;-)
<slashd> cyphermox, ?
<slashd> cyphermox, is off today I think
<ddstreet> lol well i'm off today too
<slashd> ;)
<slashd> missing one dmb member to get the quorum
<rbasak> ddstreet: it would be helpful if you could keep a log on your application change of what has changed since your previous application
<acheronuk> tsimonq2 can't be here
<ddstreet> rbasak if the DMB could quantify what i need to do besides "more" that would help too
<slashd> ddstreet, did you mention the merge we did together for vlan ?
<rbasak> ddstreet: I thought I was pretty clear on what I wanted in the previous meeting.
<slashd> I don't see it in the wiki page
<ddstreet> slashd no i don't think i remembered that, thnx
<rbasak> ddstreet: if you want more clarification I think you could start by not trivialising that to "more", because that isn't what happened.
<jbicha> ddstreet: respectfully, it doesn't look to me like you've done any non-SRU uploads since the last meeting
<ddstreet> hmm ok, i'll review the logs then rbasak
<jbicha> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-19-15.01.log.html
<ddstreet> jbicha well i can't upload to disco
<ddstreet> that's the point :)
<jbicha> have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess ? :)
<ddstreet> jbicha yes
<ddstreet> you mean i haven't had a spnosor upload a debdiff to disco for me
<jbicha> yes
<ddstreet> nope
<jbicha> ok, so if I don't see any recent work on https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsoree=dan+streetman&sponsoree_search=name
<jbicha> I would have expected to see work on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<rbasak> ddstreet: why are you keen on getting core dev if you don't have any uploads to do? And if you do have uploads to do, then why haven't you had any sponsored uploads since your last application?
<ddstreet> rbasak i will have uploads to do
<ddstreet> as well as pushing into ubuntu-dev-tools git, which i don't want to do without coredev
<rbasak> I don't think you should push into ubuntu-dev-tools git as soon as you get core dev. If you haven't got consensus from other core devs on that, please consider why.
<ddstreet> jbicha i have uploaded (sponsored) several uploads last week, to sru release
<ddstreet> rbasak i already have
<ddstreet> rbasak see my and mattia's last comments in https://code.launchpad.net/~ddstreet/ubuntu-dev-tools/+git/ubuntu-dev-tools/+merge/322863
<ddstreet> he's ready for me to push into git anytime
<ddstreet> i'm not planning to until i get coredev
<ddstreet> and my ubuntu-dev-tools changeset gets bigger and bigger all the time :(
<rbasak> I feel that you're making this hard for yourself.
<ddstreet> ok...
<rbasak> It's you yourself declining to make merges that are making the problem bigger as you describe.
<rbasak> The bigger the MP, the less you're going to get other developers volunteering to review it, and the less appropriate the proposal will be.
<ddstreet> i'm not *asking* for coredev to push into ubuntu-dev-tools
<ddstreet> you're the one who is asking why i want it - that's one reason
<ddstreet> rbasak nobody will review my MP
<ddstreet> that's very clear
<rbasak> Because it's immense.
<ddstreet> it's a clear line of git commits
<ddstreet> anyone is free to review them - nobody is going to
<rbasak> Land them slowly then. Small chunks at a time, in small MPs.
<ddstreet> why are we talking about it?
<ddstreet> eh, i have better things to do than continue to try to get people to review my MP
<ddstreet> like, actually improving code ;-)
<slashd> rbasak, I think ddstreeet is trying to unblock himself in different situation where he would have need to upload in devel release (example: SRU but the fix is not yet in devel release) but also because I know ddstreet is always keen to fix packages from what I know network related (vlan, ...)
<jbicha> ddstreet: I don't think 5 sponsored uploads is sufficient for granting new upload rights
<ddstreet> jbicha what is the # that is sufficient?
<jbicha> I don't have an exact number to give you
<ddstreet> rofl
<jbicha> for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership we want "significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu"
<jbicha> I don't think 5 uploads is signficant and sustained
<slashd> ddstreet, may I suggest you do some +1 maintenance ? that can allow you to increase the # of sponsored upload in disco
<slashd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam
<ddstreet> sure, and what # of disco uploads should i aim for, slashd jbicha rbasak
<ddstreet> or, just keep going until you approve? ;-)
<rbasak> Right now that's not my concern any more.
<rbasak> I'm concerned that you aren't on the same page as other Ubuntu developers.
<ddstreet> rbasak and how is that
<rbasak> "i will have uploads to do" etc
<rbasak> This has already been explained to you.
<ddstreet> rbasak sorry not following
<jbicha> to be a bit more direct, I believe both the Ubuntu Membership Board and the DMB generally look for a minimum of 6 months of contributions (although exceptions can be made)
<rbasak> "rofl" doesn't sound apologetic to me. It sounds like you have contempt for our process rather than any misunderstaning.
<ddstreet> jbicha are you saying i don't have 6 months of contributions?
<jbicha> I don't think 5 uploads counts as 6 months of sustained contributions
<ddstreet> rbasak well your board failed to even show up for my first 2 meetings - are you apologetic for that? ;-)
<ddstreet> jbicha ok, but is 10?  20?  40?
<ddstreet> rbasak i'm not apologetic, can you clarify what your problem with me is exactly?
<rbasak> "rbasak if the DMB could quantify what i need to do besides "more" that would help too" is another example - something I specifically addressed in the last meeting
<rbasak> I believe I did apologise, publicly, for the absence of other DMB members, yes.
<ddstreet> rbasak what *exactly* have i done, or am i doing, wrong
<ddstreet> besides "not enough"
<rbasak> However throwing that at us isn't productive given that we're the ones that are here.
<rbasak> See the logs from the last meeting please. I think I laid it out very well there.
<ddstreet> rbasak this feels like it's devolving into personal attacks on me - shouldn't this board focus on technical ability instead?
<rbasak> "Most of the work we do has implicit consensus that we receive through our mutual understanding as we work together in our teams, and this is essential to make progress. This relies on individual developers understanding when other team members will have no objection, and on being active in seeking consensus when this is not the case. I don't specifically expect evidence of this, but I do take into
<rbasak> account any information I have on this aspect. 2
<jbicha> if we take an average of 1 upload per week for 6 months, that's about 25 uploads; but I am very reluctant to put an exact number on this
<ddstreet> jbicha \o/ ok i'll shoot for 25 uploads to disco then
<rbasak> ddstreet: you asked me why I'm concerned about granting you core dev, and I'm explaining.
<jbicha> and while I absolutely do want you to come back before the DMB, I would expect you to wait a few months first
<ddstreet> jbicha if i came back with 25 disco uploads, would you be happy at that point, or would you ask for something additional?
<ddstreet> jbicha you want me to wait until # uploads, or just wait certain time period?
<jbicha> I mean I had the opposite problem in my career. I waited far too long to apply to be a DD and a Core Dev
<rbasak> As long as this remains confrontational, I'm afraid I will remain a -1.
<ddstreet> jbicha ok, well i'm not doing that, so...
<rbasak> I'm willing to try to bridge this gap, but that needs work from your side too, not contempt.
<ddstreet> rbasak what specifically do you want me to do to get you to +1?
<jbicha> In his time on the DMB, Robie has worked to try to be more precise on what he's looking for by creating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev
<rbasak> I don't think this conversation can be productive any more. If it's not clear to you, I think it is at least clear to multiple other developers and perhaps they will do a better job of explaining this to you.
<ddstreet> jbicha i've read that, and it's a good outline, but it's unclear what specifically rbasak thinks i'm lacking from that wiki page
<jbicha> ddstreet: "need to unblock"
<ddstreet> jbicha and that "need to unblock" principle will be proved by me getting more disco uploads sponsored, right?
<rbasak> Please take a step back, calm down, and then seek advice from other developers - your sponsors, perhaps.
<ddstreet> rbasak i am calm ;-)
<ddstreet> i'm just confused
<jbicha> from what I can tell, you have coworkers that can easily sponsor the few uploads you need to the devel release
<ddstreet> the "need to unblock" is proven my more disco uploads - but you said your objection isn't about "more"...?
<slashd> ddstreet, let's focus you and I on development release work : sync/merge,+1, ... and see how we can reach the gap. thoughts ?
<ddstreet> jbicha with that argument, why approve anyone ever?  all developers in the world can find sponsorship to disco
<ddstreet> slashd i'm happy to - assuming that more disco uploads is the only requirement the DMB is asking me for
<jbicha> that's not true for everyone, we have sponsorship requests that have been open for months
<ddstreet> which is highly confusing since rbasak said at the start his objection is not about "more"
<slashd> ddstreet, well development release is the only bit you are missing in your privileges, so yeah
<jbicha> I specifically voted to help Budgie & Kylin devs get upload rights because their flavors were being significantly hurt by the slow sponsorship queue
<ddstreet> jbicha i have, and will, need to upload to disco.  sure, i can get sponsorship, but that delays the process and increases sponsor's workload.  which is the point of me getting coredev.
<ddstreet> jbicha the Canonical Support Engineering team is also being impacted by slow response to uploads, which is why slashd got coredev, and why i'm applying for coredev
<jbicha> 5 uploads per year does not sound like a big burden to your sponsors
<ddstreet> jbicha i will be sponsoring *other people* in uploading to disco
<ddstreet> as well as myself
<ddstreet> this isn't just about me uploading my own changes
<jbicha> that's not how this works
<ddstreet> what's not how this works?
<jbicha> you aren't applying for core dev rights for other people, you are applying for upload rights for yourself
<ddstreet> uh
<ddstreet> clearly i mean i will be uploading other people's work after reviewing - just like all of you do when sponsoring
<jbicha> that's not how the DMB grants permissions
<ddstreet> ok, i'm just clarifying for you that granting me coredev rights "unblocks" uploading for more people than just me
<ddstreet> you *did* talk about "unblocking"
<ddstreet> ;-)
<jbicha> If sponsoring for your coworkers is your "need to unblock", then you're asking the DMB to handle your application differently than everyone else's
<ddstreet> sigh
<slashd> I would say let's do the development work needed by ddstreet to reach the gap, and let's have the discussion back in a couple of weeks/months when ddstreet and I will have done more work in the devel area.
<ddstreet> this is clearly going nowhere, do you want to just vote me down and i'll come back after 25 disco uploads?
<ddstreet> yeah what slashd said
<jbicha> you argument might not succeed, but you will definitely need to quantify your argument
<jbicha> I'd rather not vote again today since I haven't seen any significant changes since our last meeting
<jbicha> we can move on in our agenda thoughâ¦
<rbasak> We weren't quorate, so I don't think we actually formally started the meeting.
<slashd> jbicha, rbasak , I'll start mentoring ddstreet on what need to be done next (w/ my coredev hat) and I'll see when he is ready to re-apply again in a couple weeks/months.
<rbasak> Thanks slashd!
<jbicha> thank you
<slashd> since the patch is still fresh in my mind ;)
<slashd> path ^
<slashd> does that sound like a good plan to you ddstreet ?
<ddstreet> sure
<slashd> ddstreet, perfect
<slashd> so I guess you can adjourn the meeting for now ? unless anything else need to be discuss
<slashd> thanks jbicha rbasak ddstreet. I guess the meeting is over now ?
<jbicha> yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-04
 * cpaelzer gathers some wood to soon light the MIR campfire
<doko> how well do incomplete MIRs burn?
<cpaelzer> not so well, thats why I'll switch to liquid oxygen next week
<cpaelzer> to get rid of them before christmas
<cyphermox> o/
<cpaelzer> hiho cyphermox
<doko> cyphermox, cpaelzer: apparently nobody else is showing up. any open issues?
<didrocks> hey, sorry, but as the last MIR meetings didn't happen, I thought those were cancelled
<cyphermox> I'm happy to review gnome-shell-extension-desktop-icons
<doko> didrocks: rygel seems to be back on your list
<didrocks> doko: indeed, from yesterday evening, will handle that this week
<cpaelzer> We are potentially prepping quite a bunch of new MIRs but none of them has entered the queue yet
<cpaelzer> I need a full dependency graph first to see if it makes sense
<cpaelzer> FYI: amurray and I cleared intel-ipsec from the list (was on security review, but the need for it vanished)
<doko> anything else?
<doko> it's perfectly fine if we finish these meetings within 5-10 minutes if nothing else is to discuss
<didrocks> nothing for me
<cyphermox> nothing else from me
<cpaelzer> nothing more for me
<doko> ok, then see you next week =)
<cpaelzer> o/
<didrocks> see you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-12-06
<juliank> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> vorlon: you around to chair?
<tdaitx> o/
<cyphermox> I'll take that as a no
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  6 16:05:50 2018 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke fginther juliank platonical tobikoch)
<cyphermox> tdaitx sil2100 rcj xnox mwhudson juliank infinity fginther bdmurray platonical Odd_Bloke cyphermox philroche doko rbalint tobikoch vorlon
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 update with autopkgtests
<tdaitx>   - seeing lots of failures in the ppa builds, disk space was reported as a problem, but vbuilders have 60 GB disk
<tdaitx>   - still got failures afre removing intermediate testsuite files
<tdaitx>   - arm and intel failed, ibm worked fine, launchpad team said nothing was changed so package changes were probably at fault
<tdaitx>   - more often disk usage sampling finally indicated a testsuite that grew by 30 GB in less than 2 minutes (local build is faster and on a ssd)
<tdaitx>   - investigating which particular tests are at "fault", then decide to either ignore them (depending on importance) or free space somewhere else
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 migration to bionic
<tdaitx>   - local rebuilds of packages that need patching and must be build with openjdk-10
<tdaitx>   - sorting out what new package dependencies are being used on debian since cosmic
<tdaitx> (done)
<gaughen> sil2100 is in CPT, and riding back to the hotel
<gaughen> rcj
<rcj> * tons of vacation
<rcj> (done)
<gaughen> xnox is out today
<gaughen> may be on airplane
<gaughen> mwhudson is sleeping hopefully
<gaughen> juliank,
<juliank> * magic apt stuff
<cyphermox> super moo powers! yay
<juliank> https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/commit/294b5e77a25d2600e7f3ce12a996d1694b5be817
<juliank> (done)
<cyphermox> fginther:
<fginther> * Partner calls
<fginther> * Posted job opening: https://boards.greenhouse.io/canonical/jobs/1456314
<fginther> (done)
<fginther> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> submitted RT #115646 re staging ET access to porter-i386.canonical.com
<bdmurray> submitted RT re updating daisy code in Error Tracker
<bdmurray> reported oopsrepository bug LP: #1805912 - and fixed it too
<bdmurray> also fixed another bug regarding writing to BucketMetadata
<bdmurray> worked with IS regarding failed daisy update and also a separate bad unit
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805912 in Daisy "BucketMetadata has some junk in it" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805912
<bdmurray> modified ET mojo spec not to use rabbitmq-stats plus some other stuff
<bdmurray> merged libreoffice bionic badtest hint from osomon
<bdmurray> reviewed rbalint's monster unattended-upgrades SRU
<bdmurray> review of Ubuntu Bug Control application from Canonical employee
<bdmurray> special SRU review / release of netplan.io for Bionic
<bdmurray> worked on allowing ubuntu-release-upgrader to attempt an upgrade with
<bdmurray>  PPAs enabled
<bdmurray> Now errors.ubuntu.com doesn't have any strange releases on the front page, something Adam had brought up a bit ago.
<bdmurray> It was a bit complicated but looks nice now.
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> platonical:
<platonical> * Livecd-rootfs SRUs:
<platonical> https://code.launchpad.net/~codyshepherd/livecd-rootfs/bionic-proposed-snaps-manifest/+merge/359645
<platonical> https://code.launchpad.net/~codyshepherd/livecd-rootfs/xenial-proposed-snaps-manifest/+merge/359649
<platonical> * Bug verification on LP: #1801134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1801134 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu Xenial) "/etc/resolv.conf broken in Xenial minimal" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801134
<platonical> * Partner image work
<platonical> (done)
<platonical> Odd_Bloke:
<Odd_Bloke> * Various partner pieces of work
<Odd_Bloke> * Investigated using Sentry for build system error tracking
<Odd_Bloke> * Moved old trusty releases to our S3 archive to free up disk space on the cloud-images.u.c host
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> cyphermox:
<cyphermox>  MIR: review gnome-shell-extension-desktop-icons
<cyphermox> - plymouth: update upstream patches for keyboard deactivation
<cyphermox> - Secure Boot/ grub SRU testing (Windows 10 / MAAS chainloading) (bug LP: #1792575)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1792575 in shim-signed (Ubuntu Xenial) "Boot failure with efi shims from 20180913.0" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1792575
<cyphermox> - netplan:
<cyphermox>  - finishing up tunnel support (integration tests + parent device issues)
<cyphermox>  - workaround for device matching issues when MACs are shared
<cyphermox> - Whitepaper: writing up Secure Boot PKI stuff.
<cyphermox> - debugging NM+dnsmasq autopkgtests fail in disco
<cyphermox> (done)
<tobikoch> p_hilroche is ooo
<tobikoch> doko:
<doko> - packaged GCC 7.4 release, update 8.2
<doko> - some MIRs
<doko> - preparing bionic test rebuild
<doko> - OpenJDK 12 packaging, reviewed new OpenJDK 11 packaging changes
<doko> - fixing various ftbfs
<doko> - debhelper merge (pending since June)
<doko> (done)
<rbalint> * meld new upstream release 3.18.3
<rbalint> * created unattended-upgrades mirror on Salsa with CI config
<rbalint>   https://salsa.debian.org/rbalint/unattended-upgrades
<rbalint> * followed up on unattended-upgrades SRU regressions
<rbalint> * fixed old LP: #1806678 in git
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1806678 in rax-nova-agent (Ubuntu) "rax-nova-agent can be upgraded without upgrading python3-novaagent, then it crashes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1806678
<rbalint> * fixed LP: #1806076 on apt's side in git
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1806076 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "unattended-upgrade --help raises UnicodeEncodeError when stdout encoding is ascii" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1806076
<rbalint> * collected bzr branches of one round of Foundation's packages for git conversion
<rbalint> * proposed check for motd news format:
<rbalint>   https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/ubuntu-motd/check-news-format/+merge/360195
<rbalint> * also for nicer minimized motd:
<rbalint>   https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/livecd-rootfs/separate-motd-minimized/+merge/360193
<rbalint> * fixed foolscap autopkgtest
<rbalint> * packaged new twisted 18.9.0 upstream
<rbalint> (done)
<tobikoch> * mfdiff refactoring
<tobikoch> * vanguarding
<tobikoch> * some image build parallellelization work
<tobikoch> * minor amount of partner work
<tobikoch> (done)
<cyphermox> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<cyphermox> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> (and this time I got the right URL)
<cyphermox> bdmurray: anything on that report you want to talk about?
<bdmurray> I noticed Adam took bug 1797335 but there isn't a card for it
<ubottu> bug 1797335 in glibc (Ubuntu) "strstr() on ubuntu18.04 8 times slower than on ubuntu16" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797335
<bdmurray> So should we create one?
<gaughen> he's got it in the glibc sru he's working on
<gaughen> bdmurray, so yes, to creating one and it should go straight to in progress
<bdmurray> gaughen: ack
<gaughen> bdmurray, you'll create it?
<bdmurray> bug 1805490 was raised by seb
<ubottu> bug 1805490 in grub2-signed (Ubuntu) "Grub2 Failed to install "efibootmgr failed to register the boot entry: Block device required."" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805490
<bdmurray> gaughen: when my system is working better yes
<gaughen> let me do it then
<cyphermox> bdmurray: not new
<cyphermox> I'll take it though, see if there's more to get out of this now
<gaughen> cyphermox, bdmurray and I'll card this one too
<bdmurray> cool
<cyphermox> gaughen: ta
<bdmurray> then there is bug 1804673 which may have an upstream fix
<ubottu> bug 1804673 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu) "gnutls causes gnome-music segmentation fault" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1804673
<gaughen> I have one quesiton on that last one
<cyphermox> wow
<gaughen> is this warm enough that we should look at it in the next couple of weeks, or can it wait until Jan?
<cyphermox> is that not a desktop bug?
<juliank> I'd cherry-pick the gnutls one, that should be trivial, but not sure about SRU testing
<bdmurray> no, seb said gnutls is ours which is true
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> well, yeah, gnutls is ours
<cyphermox> my point was it's easy to use gnutls wrong in gnome-music that would lead to a segfault
<juliank> APT uses gnutls, so I tend to take care of it when I see it somewhere
<cyphermox> but since it's been tracked down to gnutls itself
<gaughen> I'll card this beasty also bdmurray, it does look like one we should look at
<cyphermox> juliank wants to take it?
<gaughen> sounds like it
<juliank> yeah
<cyphermox> cool
<bdmurray> Then there is bug 1805027 which I'm keeping an eye since I experience it too
<ubottu> bug 1805027 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-resolved can't resolve Comcast mail server addresses" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1805027
<juliank> who uses comcast mail servers anyway?
<bdmurray> people forced to?
<cyphermox> it's a fun bug
<juliank> Can reproduce to
<cyphermox> yup
<juliank> resolvectl query works, but actually using it fails
<cyphermox> it's quite likely EDNS foobar
<juliank> (on disco)
<cyphermox> (so that inflight SRU that may or may not be in disco?)
<cyphermox> xnox isn't around to claim it, but it can probably wait until he's there?
<gaughen> so it's confirmed to NOT be addressed by the latest systemd sru?
<cyphermox> we only confirm it's not fixed in disco
<bdmurray> gaughen: no, it is not. Although I tested it and it didn't help.
<juliank> it's definitely not fixed in yesterday's disco upload
<cyphermox> no clue if the SRU is applied is disco. certainly /should/ be
<gaughen> I carded it
<cyphermox> so maybe it's not the same bug
<bdmurray> juliank: you tested it on disco?
<juliank> that includes " resolved: Increase size of TCP stub replies."
<cyphermox> we do have all the info to fix it though, so it's just a matter of how fast it needs to be addressed
<juliank> yes, with  239-7ubuntu15
<cyphermox> heh
<juliank> cyphermox: before the release
<juliank> :D
<cyphermox> well, yeah
<cyphermox> but I mean "before xnox is available" or not
<cyphermox> I can easily go debug it
<juliank> Given that this affects a small group of users, does not seem that high priority
<gaughen> cyphermox, I don't think it's that hot
<bdmurray> i think there is a danger of people modifying systems in a bad way
<cyphermox> just not sure if that's a good idea priority-wise ;)
<cyphermox> bdmurray: yeah
<gaughen> cyphermox, I don't think it's a jam it in the current iteration
<cyphermox> juliank: it affects a "small" group of many users, the most likely to modify their systems in a bad way, sadly
<bdmurray> Its what I did for my dad.
<gaughen> I've carded it and put it towards the top of general distro
<cyphermox> cool
<cyphermox> bdmurray: anything else?
<juliank> it definitely sounds like a fun bug
<bdmurray> I kinda wanted to talk about samba ownership but I guess Steve should be around for that.
<doko> is it ours?
<gaughen> doko, it's shared with server
<cyphermox> ack
<gaughen> bdmurray, I planned to chat with Josh about it later today
<cyphermox> punt until later then?
<cyphermox> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> Oh, it looks like somebody is on it.
<cyphermox> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> doko:
<cyphermox> (samba is nice segway)
<doko> the only one is imagemagick
<cyphermox> ohh
<doko> freeipa is not ours, people are trying to migrate to openjdk-11 from -8
<cyphermox> ok
<rbalint> i can take imagemagick for next week, we have a history with ruby-rmagick :-)
<cyphermox> card then?
<gaughen> sure, I'll create it and put it in your queue rbalint
<cyphermox> ok; moving on
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> anything else from anyone?
<rbalint> bdmurray, thanks for the monster u-u SRU review! :-)
<bdmurray> rbalint: hopefully the rest of the process is smooth
<rbalint> it looks like so so far
<cyphermox> alright
<rbalint> aob: i plan converiting low-traffic Foundations packages from bzr to git without further coordination, if you want yours to be held back please add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/MigratingFromBzrToGit
<cyphermox> thanks everyone! :)
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  6 16:40:02 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-12-06-16.05.moin.txt
<mIk3_08> Hello everyone...
<tsimonq2> Heyaaa
<tsimonq2> Anyone else here from the UMB?
<mIk3_08> hi tsimonq2...
<tsimonq2> Hey, how are you?
<mIk3_08> im good. you?
<tsimonq2> Pretty good.
<tsimonq2> mIk3_08: I don't know if anyone else will show up, sorry. :(
<mIk3_08> that's okay.
<tsimonq2> But I do have a question after seeing your application that would be good to get answered at some point - have you worked with anyone who might be able to advocate for you?
<mIk3_08> actually, no. im just working on the translations. and applying for the membership to the officially part of it.
<mIk3_08> i mean to be officially part of the ubuntu membership.
<tsimonq2> Ahh.
<mIk3_08> mostly filipino official ubuntu member here in philippines... i think they are so busy to reply
<tsimonq2> mIk3_08: Has anyone had to review your contributions? Maybe ask them.
<tsimonq2> I say that because typically we like to see two or more testimonials.
<tsimonq2> But it's not a hard requirement. :)
<mIk3_08> tsimonq2: okay tsimonq2. i'll find way for that.
<tsimonq2> Thanks.
<tsimonq2> And sorry we couldn't get quorum today.
<mIk3_08> well That's okay.
<mIk3_08> tsimonq2: i have a question for you...
<mIk3_08> is it okay to ask?...
<sarnold> mIk3_08: people come and go on irc all the time, it's best to just ask questions and see :)
<tsimonq2> ^ :)
<tsimonq2> Heya sarnold :D
<sarnold> afternoon tsimonq2 :)
<mIk3_08> tsimonq2 : If nobody can give a testimonials for me coz it seems that they are so busy. Am I not qualified to be official member of ubuntu?
<tsimonq2> mIk3_08: Your application must be extremely strong if that is the case.
<tsimonq2> But, other members will ask the question, and they may feel differently.
<tsimonq2> I am one member with one opinion. ;)
<mIk3_08> hey sarnold: my internet is so slow... i you give me your wiki. if its okay so that i can know your background. if thats okay. :-)
<mIk3_08> can you give me your wiki.?
<mIk3_08> if its okay for you sarnold.
<mIk3_08> i mean the links
<sarnold> mIk3_08: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sarnold
<mIk3_08> we have a big internet problem here in philippines and the price is high even loading with wiki ubuntu take time
<sarnold> ubuntu wiki is *insanely* slow
<mIk3_08> not only in wiki but also with the other website... takes a lot of time to successfully view the page.
<teward> sarnold: maybe we need to poke SA?
<mIk3_08> hi teward... what is SA?
<teward> mIk3_08: i was specifically talking to sarnold, but I was referring to slowness globally on the wiki needing to be sent up to the canonical sysadmins
<teward> you can otherwise ignore my comments, I'm not actually part of the UMB, I just lurk :)
<sarnold> teward: heh, they're aware it's pretty poor.. dealing with spam on it takes a lot more system time than it could / should, and switching to something else would requir a huge amount of human time..
<sarnold> teward: I wish we could do something more like https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/plan_9_wiki/  "Anyone with a Plan 9 installation can edit the wiki pages. People new to a wiki should play around in the sandbox to gain familiarity with the concept."
<mIk3_08> hehehe :-) thanks by the way for the concern. ahhhh the page of sarnold is successfully loaded and i've seen that    tsimonq2 is writing a comment with your page. hey, tsimonq2 can you also make a comment in my page. hehehe
<teward> speaking of "your page", you do have one yes? :P
<mIk3_08> are you asking to me teward? http://wiki.ubuntu.com/mIk3_08
<sarnold> "This page does not exist yet"
<teward> that'd be because mlk3_08 is the page I found on the UMB page
<mIk3_08> https://launchpad.net/~mlk3-08
<sarnold> this exists https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mlk3_08
<teward> mIk3_08: i think you failed to type the page name right, is that supposed to be an L or an I?  :P
<mIk3_08> Il
<mIk3_08> hey teward and sarnold can you help give testimonial on my https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mlk3_08
<teward> I don't know you, i can't testify for or against currently.  E:NOINFORMATIONTOSHARE
<mIk3_08> hehehe...that's okay teward np
<teward> mIk3_08: if you need testimonials they should be from other people who you've worked with in the Ubuntu world at large
<teward> otherwise the testimonials are useless :P
<mIk3_08> i did not work with anyone teward. i try my self to volunteer but they always say no.
<mIk3_08> how about to you teward sarnold and tsimonq2. for the sake of testi...
<mIk3_08> i think its no again tewar...
<mIk3_08> i mean teward :-P
<mIk3_08> i have to go guys....
<mIk3_08> Bye..
<mIk3_08> Thanks for the time.
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-02
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> Do we have any applications for today?
<sil2100> I think the agenda only mentions someone for the next meeting
<rbasak> I guess not.
<rbasak> Any progress on actions?
<rbasak> I still need to do mine.
<sil2100> I don't think I have anything assigned
<sil2100> I thinks mfo's action from slashd is done
<cyphermox> ok
<slashd> sil2100, cyphermox: yeah it is done
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-03
<didrocks> FTR, I will probably be out today during the MIR team meeting
 * didrocks is back
<joeubuntu> No meeting today ?
<didrocks> seems like it's only the 2 of us, so I would sayâ¦ no?
<jamespage> joeubuntu: don't seem to be a huge number of participants...
 * didrocks has only one topic, but for foundation team
<didrocks> joeubuntu: FYI, the zsys with separate daemon/server is available in focal. So nothing should block the security review
<doko> o/
<jamespage> only new MIR I wanted to raise awareness of was https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ceph-iscsi/+bug/1854362
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854362 in urwid (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ceph-iscsi, tcmu, python-configshell-fb, python-rtslib-fb, urwid" [Undecided,In progress]
<jamespage> most is that is management glue but the tcmu package probably has some security implications as it links to the LIO driver in the kernel to userspace libraries/features
<didrocks> ack, I think it's on cpaelzer's plate?
<didrocks> and cyphermox started to look apparently
<doko> #1853175 was now handled by cpaelzer
<didrocks> doko: It seems the whole foundation team is an adminstrator for their package subscription. Do you mind subscribing your team to golang-1.13 so that I can promote it and unblock golang-default from -proposed? (I don't think it needs a MIR)
<joeubuntu> that is great didrocks
<doko> didrocks: .
<cpaelzer> o/
<cpaelzer> too many things at once
<cpaelzer> sorry
<cpaelzer> yes I did the two bugs of the Desktop team this morning
<doko> anything else?
<doko> joeubuntu: how does the security queue look like?
<cyphermox> urwid is a UI/input lib so it will probably need security review
<joeubuntu> doko 4  in progress , 7 in queue
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: will you tackle the tasks of 1854362 one by one?
<cpaelzer> atm only urwid is assigned
<cpaelzer> or do we need to spread the others among the people that are here?
<cyphermox> I was going to do them one by one; but if you want to pick some I won't stop you
<cpaelzer> If time permits I will pick one of it, leaving the tab open ...
<cyphermox> I started from what looked like lowest level since we'd be in trouble if that was a MIR nightmare
<cyphermox> my limiting factor right now is that I seem to be keen on coughing up my lungs
<cpaelzer> please underachieve on that
<cyphermox> my goal
<cyphermox> isn't that why we have two of those though?
<doko> anything else, time to finish the meeting?
<cpaelzer> nothing more from me
<doko> 3
<doko> 2
<doko> 1
<doko> ok, see you next week
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-12-05
<rbalint> o/
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec  5 16:01:57 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> mwhudson infinity xnox sil2100 rbalint juliank waveform doko cyphermox vorlon bdmurray tdaitx
<bdmurray> mwhudson is not here
<bdmurray> infinity: ?
<bdmurray> xnox: !
<xnox> here
<xnox> but not ready
<xnox> next
<bdmurray> sil2100: are you ready?
<sil2100> Yes
<sil2100> - Moar kernel reviews
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Finished some training
<sil2100> - Coordination, preparation and releases for the raspi 19.10.1
<sil2100> - Fixed the screen-reader not staying enabled on the target system (in ubiquity)
<sil2100> - Verified ubuntu-image for all series + snap, promoted to stable
<sil2100> - Promoted new core18 to stable
<sil2100> - Sync regarding the IMX6 work, started planning multi-volume u-i livecd-rootfs support
<sil2100> - Work on manifest diffing for ISO testing
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> * fixed valgrind ftbfs with openmpi 4.0
<rbalint> * trainings
<rbalint> * SRU verifications: wslu, valgrind, unattended-upgrades
<rbalint> * working on showing motd in containers, fixing packages to make that work:
<rbalint>   pam, base-files, ubuntu-release-upgrader, update-notifier, update-motd
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * reviewed vorlon's autopkgtest merge proposal for cross-testing
<juliank> * worked on apt credential leaking bug
<juliank>   - investigated applying auth.conf entries to https only, allow explicit protocol matching (machine http://...)
<juliank>   - investigated dropping credentials after following a cross-origin redirect
<juliank>   - stable releases - add opt-in protocol matching, as opposed to https-only be default
<juliank> * broke the APT unit tests, but did not notice it, because for some unknown reason
<juliank>   gtest is not being detected anymore and the tests silently skipped
<juliank> * released apt 1.9.5
<juliank> * noticed that APT CI was timing out on salsa half the time, work on making it faster
<juliank>   - drop coverage testing (only gives you a percentage in gitlab UI anyway...)
<juliank>   - trying to add ccache, but only seems to upload 1 file to cache
<juliank>   - future work: split up build and test stages, also avoids building twice
<juliank> * noticed I forgot about bug 1801338 in apt, tried to re-reproduce
<ubottu> bug 1801338 in apt (Ubuntu Cosmic) "apt fails to properly handle server-side connection closure" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801338
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Finished fix for LP: #1311056, adding tests
<waveform> * Testing pi images on multiple pis
<waveform> * Fighting/debugging lxd snap on LVM (not through choice!)
<waveform> * Testing pi images on multiple pis
<waveform> * Worked on pi configuration tool; basic implementation now done, needs docs, bells & whistles
<waveform> * Testing pi images on multiple pis ... seriously, there was a lot of this!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311056 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "apt-add-repository adds duplicate commented/disabled source lines" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311056
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> - first gcc-10 package done
<doko> - investigating gcc-10 bootstrap failure on ppc64el
<doko> - isl transition done
<doko> - some python uploads
<doko> - python2.7 SRUs for bionic and eoan
<doko> - gcc-7, gcc-8 SRUs for bionic and eoan
<doko> - trying to figure out how to build gcc-10 on i386 ("use the launchpad api" is no help)
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox> code reviews:
<cyphermox> - netplan PR108 (802.1x auth-phase2, merged)
<cyphermox> - netplan PR109 (generated wpa for 802.1x, needs changes)
<cyphermox> - netplan PR113 (wireguard, needs another schema review)
<cyphermox> - netplan PR114 (L2TP, needed changes, got updated, needs schema review)
<cyphermox> - netplan PR115 (dummy interfaces, needs changes)
<cyphermox> - subiquity PR577 (error reports, approved)
<cyphermox> prepare fix for bash-completions in util-linux (umount) (bug LP: #1845529)
<cyphermox> debugging issues with my test for walinuxagent
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845529 in bash-completion (Ubuntu Focal) "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<cyphermox> doing verification (building reverse-depends) for unicode-data SRUs
<cyphermox> netplan NM plugin:
<cyphermox> - refactored netplan parser to turn it into libnetplan, made sure names won't conflict
<cyphermox> - added initial parser code for backend-specific settings (NM has permissions, UUIDs, etc that need to be carried)
<cyphermox> - mapping netplan netdefs to NMConnection fields
<cyphermox> (done)
 * xnox is ready
<bdmurray> xnox have at it then
<xnox> 5th of December
<xnox> Fixed up url=http://*.iso for netboot and url=http://*preseed.cfg for pressed duplication. This was causing failure to boot pressed desktops, and was causing redundant .iso downloads on subiquity netboot
<xnox> S390x uploads:
<xnox> Glibc cherry-pick (which probably will never migrate)
<xnox> Boost dropping python2
<xnox> Debugging snap-bootstrap / ubuntu-core-initramfs integration
<xnox> Booked travel for engineering sprint, FOSDEM
<xnox> Discussing linux-snap changes with apw for UC20
<xnox> done
<xnox> bah
<xnox> my indenting got eaten
<xnox> never mind
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<cyphermox> xnox: new tool for writing down tasks?
<vorlon>  * i386 compat-only architecture:
<vorlon>   * launchpad whitelist applied
<vorlon>   * autopkgtests now running on amd64 base instead of i386
<vorlon>   * will start the removal of stale binary packages today
<vorlon>  * have been doing manual removals of specific binary packages blocking proposed-migration, will be nice to stop playing whack-a-mole with these
<vorlon>  * britney doesn't necessarily notice that binary packages for the arch have been removed, so there will probably be more release team hints needed for test failures before we're done
<vorlon> (done)
<xnox> cyphermox:  kind of. Google doc.
<cyphermox> hah, heh
<bdmurray> resolved traceback in daisy with unicode in Stacktrace data
<bdmurray> submitted RT, MP regarding updating daisy code for the above
<bdmurray> reported LP: #1853660 regarding a cloud-init crash on the Pi4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853660 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "cloud-init crashed with OSError in write_file(): [Errno 117] Structure needs cleaning: '/var/lib/cloud/data/tmpcct746jf' -> '/var/lib/cloud/data/status.json'" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853660
<bdmurray> reported LP: #1853661 regarding systemd-timesyncd.server not sync'ing
<bdmurray> 19.10.1 Raspberry Pi iso testing
<bdmurray> SRU releases of unattended-upgrades, wslu
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853661 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-timesyncd.server failed with exit code 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853661
<bdmurray> short week with Thanksgiving
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * apport O_PATH fix (LP: #1851806)
<tdaitx>   - build ubuntu cloud autopkgtest images
<tdaitx>   - testing on xenial, bionic, disco, eoan, focal
<tdaitx> * jck tested samples, uploaded full snap
<tdaitx>   - hopping that snap will make login easier to automate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx> * training
 * tdaitx is done
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1852772
<ubottu> bug 1852772 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "test_updates_interval fails on focal" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852772
<bdmurray> there's been an upload to fix it but...
<bdmurray> LP timed out on me
<bdmurray> Its stuck in -proposed
<bdmurray> anyway we won't be working on that more so rls-ff-notfixing
<bdmurray> same with that other software-properties one
<bdmurray> bug 1853912
<ubottu> bug 1853912 in casper (Ubuntu) "/etc/pollinate/add-user-agent should be populated (in the server live env) to allow better identification of live clients" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853912
<bdmurray> vorlon: I think we want to take that for 20.04 correct?
<vorlon> bdmurray: yes please
<xnox> yeah
<bdmurray> And remind me what we decided about air gapped upgrades e.g. bug 1834501
<ubottu> bug 1834501 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "do-release-upgrade from bionic->any disables lxd without snapstore access" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1834501
<vorlon> still important, we should take
<bdmurray> Okay, targetting and carding it
<bdmurray> well lets do that last one bug 1774843
<ubottu> bug 1774843 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport python exception handler messes up python3.7" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774843
<bdmurray> this seems pretty straight forward and reasonable to me
<bdmurray> so I think we should take it
<cyphermox> +1
<bdmurray> I had a look at ee and bb and there is nothing new there
<bdmurray> #topic iso testing packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: iso testing packages
<bdmurray> sil2100 sent an email about targetted iso testing based on packages changing in the manifest
<bdmurray> He and I would both appreciate feedback on that
<bdmurray> Here is fine for it
<xnox> e.g. major kernel change from v5.3.* to v5.4.* ?
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> Let's have a look at the python2 packages there
<bdmurray> vorlon: you said a bunch of those are related to apport?
<vorlon> bdmurray: yes, at least lazr.* and python-launchpadlib are
<vorlon> I haven't looked at polib, python-colorama, etc; they may be related or not
<bdmurray> I think python-colorama is on balint's list
<rbalint> bdmurray, it is mine, needs a removal of a unused leaf package
<rbalint> i'm on it
<bdmurray> rbalint: got it, thanks
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#unknown
<rbalint> bdmurray, it is held back by hinge
<rbalint> bdmurray, will ask for removal of hinge
<bdmurray> doko: so you are concerned about the python packages in the unknown section correct?
<doko> bdmurray: those which are canidates, but there are non of those now
<bdmurray> doko: so should we look again next week?
<vorlon> rbalint: do you know why hinge hasn't been removed from Debian testing yet? (Debian bug #936704)
<ubottu> Debian bug 936704 in src:hinge "hinge: Python2 removal in sid/bullseye" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/936704
<rbalint> vorlon, i think this should not matter
<vorlon> it matters to me because if it had been removed from testing we could autodetect it sooner
<rbalint> vorlon, yes, that's true, but we detected it now
<vorlon> yes; but this won't be the only one
<vorlon> anyway, hinge removed :P
<rbalint> vorlon, i'll check the story in Debian
<rbalint> vorlon, thanks :-)
<bdmurray> Okay, let's look again for unowned candidates next week.
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<bdmurray> Speaking of unowned things. I notice nobody is subscribed to linux-firmware-dragonboard410
<bdmurray> sil2100: ^^
<bdmurray> Alright, I'll chase him down later.
<bdmurray> If there is nothing else let's adjourn.
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Dec  5 16:57:44 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-12-05-16.01.moin.txt
<juliank> o/\o
<sil2100> bdmurray: let me add us to that one
<cyphermox> o/
<bdmurray> sil2100: thanks
