#ubuntu-irc-helpers 2010-02-08
<noel_> khjsjkgfs
<cjohnston> mornin
<jussi01> cjohnston: have you any python skills?
<cjohnston> I can spell it and i have three books so i can learn it
<cjohnston> and a desire
<cjohnston> heh
<jussi01> ahh, that sounds perfect :D
<tsimpson> fwiw, #ubuntu-irc and this channel _do_ have different purposes, this channels is for discussion/interaction for/with the people giving support in channels, #ubuntu-irc is for operator support
<tsimpson> discussion of how support is going in #ubuntu would be offtopic in -irc, but not here
<tsimpson> -irc can and should be used more, but not for the same purpose of this channel
<rww> tsimpson: In my scrollback for this channel, I see stuff that would fit fine in #ubuntu-offtopic, meta-discussion about this channel (that wouldn't exist if we didn't have it), multiple support questions that belong in #ubuntu, and a discussion of Metabot. It's my (of course, less informed than some) opinion that the purpose of #ubuntu-irc could be expanded somewhat without damaging its
<rww> usefulness.
<tsimpson> sure, but this is still a new channel
<tsimpson> the main purpose if it is for co-ordination for the support team
<tsimpson> which would not be useful in -irc and probably disrupted in -ot
<rww> I've been helping on and off in #ubuntu for about a year. I can't remember a time when I've wished there was a channel for coordinating #ubuntu support because I needed something that couldn't be dealt with in -ot or -ops.
<erUSUL> i said it here and in the mailing list. imho having both -irc and this channel is duplication for no gain. a single channel is enough
<rww> I understand that the channel is new, but it seems that thusfar, there doesn't seem to be a particularly large demand for it from others, either.
<erUSUL> but that's just imho
<jussi01> A channel doesnt get its purpose working in a week or 2, it takes sometime more.
<rww> Was this channel created because of community demand for it? Or because there's a general view that it's needed? Or because someone decided "maybe this would be a cool idea"?
<rww> (I'm not a neophobe, the last alternative is valid, I'm just curious)
<erUSUL> anyway it is comforting to see that the feedback others (the potencial users of both channels being an op in #ubuntu-es and perhaps the oldest helpper of #ubuntu) and me are giving is just redirected to /dev/null
<jussi01> erUSUL: no, feedback isnt getting redirected to dev/null, its just we want to explain to you the reasons we feel differently.
<erUSUL> jussi01: i've heard not a single reason why merging the two channels would be such a bad idea
<erUSUL> jussi01: you create the channel. decree what is offtopic in what channel. disregard any complain just saying this is offtopic here this is offtopic there ?
<tsimpson> the channels serve different purposes
<tsimpson> -irc is not for support co-ordination, -irc-helps is not for operator issues
<erUSUL> tsimpson: ok; running again in circles. i know what you want the channels to be for. Again what is so wrong about having a channel for support co-ordination *and* for loco operators issues. too much traffic? you must be jocking
<rww> Bot discussion and operator issues are different issues, we should create #ubuntu-bot-support for dealing with ubottu clones. Neither is getting cloaks, we need #ubuntu-cloaks. Arguing that #ubuntu-irc is only for operator issues is disingenous, because its scope can easily be changed.
<tsimpson> erUSUL: because things get confused, operator issues and support issues going on at the same time
<erUSUL> tsimpson: maybe you are worried about an unmanegable topic size XXDD
<tsimpson> the support team deserve a channel, rather than shoving them into another channel
<tsimpson> rww: and we do have #ubuntu-bots, #ubuntu-bots-team and #ubuntu-bots-devel
<tsimpson> and we can always move cloak requests to #ubuntu-irc-council
<tsimpson> as they are the only ones who can deal with cloak requests
<erUSUL> ok is clear that a decission has been made by the ones that can make it. i wont waste more time in this
<erUSUL> i do not see any helper here anyway
<tsimpson> this channel is new, we'll bring more people here
<rww> Again, as someone who would presumably be part of that support team, I haven't personally ever seen a need for a channel, and haven't seen others expressing the need for one.
<rww> tsimpson: Exactly, you can change #ubuntu-irc's scope one way, and you can change it the other way too. That's my point :)
<tsimpson> when supporting >1000 people, you don't think co-ordination is needed?
<tsimpson> more than 1000 in multiple channels
<jussi01> this channel isnt just for #ubuntu
<rww> tsimpson: Not that I've seen, no. The support "team" is composed of individuals, the majority of which are clued in to what to do. Those that aren't generally either learn quickly (before they'd find this channel, probably) or get pointed the right way in PM.
<tsimpson> you could apply that method to the motu, most would know what to do, those that don't learn quickly. but having a channel for co-ordination makes things much easier
<tsimpson> being an active support giver will be one way to get an ubuntu membership, so we do need to monitor supporters more
 * erUSUL Â¬.Â¬
<rww> tsimpson: The barrier to entry for MOTU is much higher than the barrier to entry for supporting in #ubuntu.
<tsimpson> rww: not really, just knowledge
<tsimpson> and having a place where people can ask support-specific questions (not support questions), helps people become better support givers and helps to give people a sense of community
<tsimpson> they won't just be a bunch of separate individuals, who happen to give support. they'll be a group who can interact with each other and discuss issues that matter to them
<rww> tsimpson: Yes, MOTU involves a lot more knowledge, which is not gained through ordinary usage of Ubuntu like most support knowledge is, and which is highly technical and specific in nature.
<rww> tsimpson: I'm not sure that answering questions is complicated enough to require support-specific questions. If you know the answer to a question, you answer it. If you don't, you leave it for someone else. If nobody answers it, Metabot does a reasonable job of catching that.
<rww> If I wanted a sense of community, that's what #ubuntu-offtopic is for.
<tsimpson> some people are better MOTUs than others, they share that knowledge and experience and everyone benefits
<tsimpson> the same can be for people who give support
<rww> well, apart for being a dumping ground for stuff that doesn't fit elsewhere. which is only going to get worse by moving meta-support discussion from it.
<rww> tsimpson: What knowledge and experience? I can measure the number of things I'd tell a potential #ubuntu person on one hand, and apart from #ubuntu-meta, they're all easily discoverable through watching #ubuntu for a couple of hours.
<tsimpson> giving support in our channels is as valuable and substantial a contribution as packaging/developing, why should they be shoved into another channel and sidelined?
<rww> Because packaging and developing require much more coordination than support does.
<tsimpson> and the packaging and development teams have lots of channels
<tsimpson> we're only creating one
<jussi01> we are not creating #kubuntu-irc-helpers, #xubuntu-irc-helpers etc
<rww> And I don't think it's necessary. You disagree, and I don't think we're going to change each others' minds, because this is based on perceptions, not facts.
<tsimpson> time will tell if it will work or not
<rww> indeed
<jussi01> Thing is, I do beleive the support can be done better than it is being done now.. this channel is aimed at making it better
<rww> jussi01: What's the status of this channel, anyway? The wiki page on it has UNAPPROVED DRAFT in huge letters, it doesn't appear to have been discussed on ubuntu-irc, and the IRC Council agenda is backlogged to say the least. Is it going to be discussed at some point before it's "approved", or did you (plural) decide to just create it now and be done with it?
<rww> s/discussed on/discussed beforehand on/, I guess :)
<jussi01> rww: the channel is approved, the wiki page isnt finished yeat, hence unapproved
<rww> jussi01: makes sense. thanks for clarifying :)
<jussi01> :)
#ubuntu-irc-helpers 2010-02-09
<valentin_> help
<DJones> valentin_: What do you need help with, the main support channel for ubuntu is #ubuntu, that will be the best place to ask a support question
<Pici> Anyone even know what PHY support even is?
<bazhang> probably aircrack
<bazhang> nope I was wrong
<bazhang> its channel switching mode
 * genii makes more coffee
<MenZa> Mmm, coffee.
<MenZa> Driving the Ubuntu cogs since 2004!
 * genii sips his decaf 
 * DJones wonders how many coffee pots genii has worn out on irc
<genii> Heh, probably quite a few. Used to also do the same schtick on telnet in the early 90s
<DJones> I think you drinking coffee was one of the first things i remember about the ubuntu community :)
<genii> Ironically, in 2004 I was at a computer show here in Toronto trying to find a coffee booth when I wandered into the Ubuntu area of the show by mistake and they handed me a 4.10 CD
<DJones> Sounds like good fortune
<genii> They had a coffee-coloured thing goin on so I gravitated ... ;)
<rww> Weird. It appears I'm only getting about half of the emails sent to ubuntu-irc.
<genii> rww: I found a bunch of them in my "Junk" folder because some ppl are sending from subdomain names that the spam-catcher thinks aren't valid
<rww> Hmm, that could be it. Perhaps I need to start paying more attention before hitting the "Delete all Spam" button
<celthunder> lol
<celthunder> you found ubuntu because of the coffee things?  personally i'm a bit confused as to why everythings referred to like coffee on the forums..mt dew and other drinks offer much more energy
<genii> A hot mug of mountain dew just isn't the same.... ;)
<celthunder> true
<celthunder> coffee makes me sick though
 * charlie-tca thinks color is different too
<celthunder> maybe that's why i'm a bit confused of it
<celthunder> also true ...ubuntu default themes are sort of brownish themeed
#ubuntu-irc-helpers 2010-02-10
<MenZa> rww: Thanks for the heads-up
 * MenZa goes to check Junk
<MenZa> Nothing here.
<rww> MenZa: I ended up checking against the mbox archive on the website to read the ones I'm missing
<MenZa> Ah
<rww> conversation makes more sense when LjL doesn't look like he's talking to himself.
<MenZa> haha
<MenZa> He does that all the time, though!
<MenZa> Hmm, can anyone think of a way a default-configured Apache on Ubuntu would allow to serve files from /? I've been grumbling about this last night since a user suggested to me in #u that it did
<MenZa> vhosts revealed nothing, so I shrugged it off
<rww> MenZa: so example.com/ was mapped to / ?
<MenZa> I think what he said was including ./file.ext in a HTML document tried to grab /file.ext from the file system
 * MenZa huggles rww 
<MenZa> I think jussi's box died :(
<rww> There go the Quassel users~!
<rww> MenZa: Anyway. That's weird and I've never seen it happen in my time using Apache
<MenZa> Same.
<MenZa> harro maco
<czajkowski> kklimonda: aloha
<kklimonda> hey czajkowski
<czajkowski> jussi01: ping
<czajkowski> kklimonda: you can always ask for help in here and see if someone can help you
 * MenZa waves to kklimonda, czajkowski 
<kklimonda> czajkowski, will do in a moment :)
<czajkowski> kklimonda: grand
<kklimonda> so - there is a problem with #ubuntu-pl channel that is an official Polish support channel for Ubuntu users. I can't actually remember the time when it was a place where new users could "safely" ask lame and stupid question and not be harassed (making fun of their age, the way they speak or their linux knowledge in general - rm -rf / and similar jokes aren't something not heard of) but at least before we had some operators who bann
<kklimonda> ed the worst cases. When I've discussed this matter a year ago with channel operator I've actually had some grand plans like creating #ubuntu-pl-chat for all "oldtimers" to chat about Arch Linux and other topics that aren't related to Ubuntu and start or "fighting" with all trolls and people who harass others. Owner's anwer (backed by the most active operator at that time) was that a) there is nothing that can be done about trolls
<kklimonda> because they keep changing their nicks and b) no reason to create another channel for offtopic discussion because old users are important and why should they change channel.
<kklimonda> fast forward one year and now I don't care about offtopic discussions anymore but we still have users harassing other users and normal trolls who are, well, just trolling. Also we have only two people who are on channel access list and their response time is really slow (actually I couldn't get in touch with them for the last 4 days). I've send another email to the channel owner but even if he takes some action the damage has alrea
<kklimonda> dy be done. There aren't many people left on the channel who actively help others, there is still a possibility that if we start banning those more burdensome users they start fighting us back (with shells and registered names - I've been told that it was the case in the past).
<kklimonda> So I guess my question is - how to deal with people who are constantly harassing others and use various means to do that?
<kklimonda> s/to do that/to avoid being banned/
<jussi01> kklimonda: hi
<kklimonda> hey jussi01
<jussi01> kklimonda: as a non operator you can catalyse (http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml) however, if there is a problem with the code of conduct not being followed, and the operators and founder of the channel have been consulted but are not acting, then you need to take it to the ircc directly.
<jussi01> kklimonda: the ircc has its own channel if you need immediate help (#ubuntu-irc-council) or if it is a long term situation then its better you send us an email.
<jussi01> !ircc
<ubottu> The Ubuntu IRC Council is the team governance council for the the Ubuntu IRC channels on the freenode network - For serious inquiries please join #ubuntu-irc-council - See also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<kklimonda> jussi01, ok, thanks - I'm going to see what response I get from channel owner and act on it.
<jussi01> kklimonda: but please just remind him or her that all ubuntu channels need to follow the CoC. ALso, if the channel owner is contactable and helpful, adding the UbuntuIrcCouncil nick to the access list is recomended
<jussi01> kklimonda: I would also really recomend creating #ubuntu-pl-offtopic - its not hard to do and will create a place where people can go just to chatter, allowing better support to happen. Many loco's do this already.
<czajkowski> kklimonda: hope this helps, and if I can help on the other matters you know how to get a hold of me
 * genii makes a fresh pot of coffee
<Guest72990> hello
 * charlie-tca thanks genii 
<genii> charlie-tca: Anytime :)
#ubuntu-irc-helpers 2010-02-12
<BluesKaj> helpers hangout eh ?
<Pici> yah
<Pici> bye
 * genii makes more coffee
<BluesKaj> not much action here :P
 * jussi01 waves
<BluesKaj> hi jussi01 :)
 * jussi01 nods tiredly
<jcordeiro> hi there
<jcordeiro> i have an "hardware detection" question
<jcordeiro> is this the right place to ask?
<ZykoticK9> jcordeiro, ask in regular #ubuntu
<jcordeiro> tnx
<Pershian007> hi
#ubuntu-irc-helpers 2010-02-13
<Finesse|cathep> hi
<Finesse|cathep> i have a question
<tsimpson> remember, this is not a support channel
 * genii sips
 * IdleOne asks where is the coffee pot?
 * genii uncloaks the coffee pot, fixes IdleOne a mug
<ZykoticK9> Flannel, you and scunizi just missed an opportunity to use this channel for what i believe it is for :)
<Flannel> ZykoticK9: for support with irssi?  No, that's #ubuntu
<ZykoticK9> Flannel, i just mean helper to helper support - wouldn't that count?
<Flannel> ZykoticK9: No, that's irssi support, just because we both happen to help doesnt mean anything.  *Ideally* everyone in #ubuntu would be a helper at some point
<rww> I thought this channel was for talking about this channel.
<ZykoticK9> rww, that pretty much seem to be what it's for - i chuckled when i read you post :)
<rww> But yeah, to be srs, as far as I know this channel is for helping with helping and helping helpers help, not helping helpers in general :)
<ZykoticK9> OH so that what this channel is for.  clears everything up thanks ;)
 * genii tries to tally up how many "help" in the above
<genii> tsimpson: Alive?
<tsimpson> genii: yep
<genii>  /msg tsimpson I'm not sure what the current policy on idlers is there also although /topic still mentions it
<genii> Bah
<tsimpson> heh, you mean in -ops?
<genii> Yeah
<tsimpson> the policy currently remains unchanged
<genii> The user is currently forwarded there due to their part message of "NIGGAS" etc
