#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-24
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<dholbach> good morning
<bwakkie> hi
<bwakkie> Anyone tries a qtec 9090?
<bwakkie> *tried
<Mithrandir> I haven't heard of anybody doing so, no
<bwakkie> is there a special pda version of ubuntu?
<asac> HappyCamp: hi ... i just did a build of your mobile-applets package from git
<asac> HappyCamp: http://paste.ubuntu.com/405/ those lintian warning/errors should be easy to fix ... so we probably want them before upload
<asac> HappyCamp: and http://paste.ubuntu.com/406/
<HappyCamp> asac, thanks.  I will check that out.
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, or anyone else.  Are there mirror sites of http://ports.ubuntu.com/ ?
<HappyCamp> I'm currently rsyncing from ports.ubuntu.com, but it is very slow :(  About 55 KB/sec
* HappyCamp is worried that it will take days to mirror the lpia stuff.
<Mithrandir> I don't think there are any mirrors.
<HappyCamp> I was afraid of that.  Thanks for the info.
<ian_brasil> i am getting a broken package  on libhildondesktop-dev ..if this is not already known about i will submit a bug
<mjg59> agoliveira: Dates now works, just need to tidy up the UI a little
* agoliveira hugs mjg59 several times :)
<mjg59> Uh. Not dates. Contacts.
<mjg59> Search box and everything :)
<agoliveira> mjg59: Funny thing is that you wrote Dates but I understood it anyway :)
<mjg59> It's not likely to be upstreamable in its current form - needs some reworking for that
<HappyCamp> Praj, why did you change bug 88 to "New"?
<agoliveira> mjg59: I'll take whatever you get for now :)
<mjg59> agoliveira: I'll get the UI tidied, then upload it
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, agoliveira Is there a reason that LPIA only seems to be for "gutsy" and not "gutsy-security" "gutsy-updates", etc...
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: I'm not sure if I understood your question but maybe it's because there's no updates for lpia yet?
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, I just noticed this for example: http://ports.ubuntu.com/dists/gutsy-security/main/
<HappyCamp> as opposed to http://ports.ubuntu.com/dists/gutsy/main/
<HappyCamp> So I was worried that maybe they did a one-time build of lpia, but haven't been doing updates.  That was my only concern.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/ seems to list gutsy-{backports,proposed,security,updates} just fine?
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Sorry, I woudn't be able to answer that.
<Mithrandir> oh, you're asking about why there's no binary-lpia bit there?
<Mithrandir> unsure, but yes, we'll be having security support for lpia just fine.
<Mithrandir> cprov: maybe you could answer us as to why there's no binary-lpia directory in gutsy-security?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, correct but when you go into: http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/gutsy-security/main/ you don't see any LPIA
<HappyCamp> I was just wondering if this is correct or not.  
<cprov>  Mithrandir: well, I don't think we have changed gutsy-security dists-dir after lpia got created.
<HappyCamp> Though I do notice that they are pretty much empty for the other archs, so I guess is is no real concern.
<Mithrandir> cprov: ok, so it'll be created once we have a security upload for lpia?
<cprov> Mithrandir: `publish-distro -s gutsy-security` would fix it
<cprov> Mithrandir: yes, it will
<Mithrandir> cprov: and running publish-distro won't have any bad side effects?
<cprov> Mithrandir: if gutsy is frozen, uploads will get accepted (fix landed in 1.1.8)
<cprov> Mithrandir: it will trigger the mirrors, since it will change archive tree, AFAIK
<cprov> Mithrandir: ohh, not really because lpia is stripped (ignored) by the mirroring script, right ?
<Mithrandir> cprov: no, it's just on ports.
<mdz> Mithrandir: did last week's unionfs fix clear up the issues with the mobile build?
<cprov> Mithrandir: yes, that's what I meant ... lpia is not present in a.u.c
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, the autobuilt dailies now work (except the crown beach system doesn't seem to like my monitor, but I'll fix that soon enough)
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok, I'll tell Charlie as much
<Mithrandir> thanks
<amitk> mdz, Mithrandir: the build might be ok, but we still see occassional oops
<mdz> amitk: indeed, there are still problems; I'm told Ben is working on them
<cprov> Mithrandir: I've just generated http://archive.dogfood.launchpad.net/ubuntu/dists/gutsy-security/, please, check if it looks sane.
<amitk> mdz, Mithrandir: there is still a race condition, but rebooting fixes it most of the time. So it is 2/10 boots have oops
<Mithrandir> cprov: it seems fine to me.
<cprov> Mithrandir: you can generate it in drescher by `LPCONFIG=ftpmaster publish-distro.py -s gutsy-security -A -vv` as lp_publish.
<Mithrandir> cprov: I'll do that when I'm at work tomorrow then.  Thanks.
<amitk> Mithrandir: do you have resolution problem with the crownbeach? My machine is going through a KVM and it is not happy until I hit the Autoset on the LCD.
<cprov> Mithrandir: k
<Mithrandir> amitk: yes, but I've had problems with the LCD and non-native resolutions before, so it might be the display.
<Mithrandir> amitk: I'm considering just bringing one of the LCDs I have at home.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Did the unionfs fix make it into today's 20070924 menlow full build ??  We don't see any different behavior.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: it works for me.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: amitk reported that he saw some unionfs oopses, but much less often, so try rebooting once.
<smagoun> Charliefjohnson: there's a unionfs fix in the tree right now, but it only works part of the time on our crown beach
<Charliefjohnson>  Mithrandir : Our test guy tried the 20070924 build on a Crown Beach and it hung on install like it has in the past.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: well, both Amit and I see it fixed here, and apparently so does Steve, so I suspect it's a problem on your end.
<Mithrandir> but then, did the person try just once, or multiple times?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I'll ask.
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: The problem is partially fixed. So the oopses happen less often now. The remaining cases are under investigation
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: Is this an upstream problem that you're working around or something unique to Unbuntu Gutsy?
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: upstream. The version upstream is broken.
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: I assume this impacts more than just UME ?  (Normal desktop & server versions of Gutsy.)
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: That is correct. All live cds are impacted as well. So it is a very high priority.
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: What's the Launchpad bug Number?
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: So you can't just roll back to the previous non-broken version until the upstream is fixed?
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: unfortunately not. Because the new version is required by apparmour security SW.
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: bug #137765, bug #138915, bug #144469
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-25
<mjg59> Hm.
<mdz> mjg59: hm?
<mjg59> The password for the "ume" user doesn't seem to be "ume"
<mjg59> Also, are the dailies being built for x86 or lpia?
<mjg59> Because I seem to be seeing unhildonised apps that are supposed to check for that at build time
<mdz> mjg59: I think the password DES-crypts to 'ume' but the system is configured for md5 passwords
<mjg59> Also, I can't change to a VT and the application launcher menu is only showing me stuff up to "c"
<mdz> that's only a guess, as I haven't had my hands on a Q1 to try it out
<mjg59> Want me to ship the dodgy one back to London?
<mjg59> As far as I can tell, it's just the fan - so it's ok for short periods of time
<mjg59> Ok. So /why/ are the ume dailies being built with i386?
<amitk> mjg59: the password is blank
<mjg59> amitk: For which?
<amitk> ume
<mjg59> No it's not
<mjg59> There was a hash in shadow
<amitk> mjg59: are we talking crownbeach or samsung Q1 images?
<mjg59> Q1
<mdz> mjg59: yes, please do
<mdz> mjg59: the dailies are being built with i386 only because Tollef hasn't gotten around to changing them yet (was supposed to happen last week)
<mjg59> mdz: Ok
<mjg59> Hm. The other thing is that the dailies still seem to use an ext2fs, and never fsck it?
<mjg59> Oh, no, it /is/ ext3 - we're just mounting it as ext2
* mjg59 ends up with a corrupt filesystem
<amitk> atleast the crownbeach ones seem to have blank password set.
<amitk> mjg59: ^^ I just reflashed my crownbeach at 5am to make sure I wasn't hallucinating :-)
<mjg59> amitk: Heh. Certainly not the case here.
<mjg59> mdz: Did you send me a PSU with this one?
<mdz> mjg59: yes (without the country-specific cable)
<mjg59> mdz: Ok, I'll find that - I can only put my hands on one of them right now
<dholbach> good morning
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hi Ken. Have a minute?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: if you could prod me when you have a couple of minutes, that'd be good.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: We can talk now if you want.
<Mithrandir> sure, I'll take it to a query
<amitk> Mithrandir: latest kernel upload seems to fix the unionfs oops. Haven't been able to reproduce it since last night.
<Mithrandir> amitk: rockin'
<Mithrandir> I've found out my display here hates the crown beach, but I'll bring in another monitor tomorrow.  We'll hopefully have lpia images then
<amitk> super
<mjg59> Yeah, I've been unable to reproduce it either now
<smagoun> amitk: we're still having trouble with unionfs on our crown beach, even with 2.6.22-12.39
<smagoun> Is there a more recent kernel? (I don't see one in launchpad)
<Mithrandir> you probably only need the newer linux-ubuntu-modules
<smagoun> Mithrandir: ah, of course. I have 2.6.22-12.31, and I see that 2.6.22-12.32 is now available - with a unionfs update in the changelog. Thanks!
<mjg59> smagoun: I could reproduce the issue with the .31 code, but not with .32
<smagoun> mjg59: thanks. Testing it now...
<dholbach> hey guys :)
<agoliveira> dholbach: Hi there!
<kwwii> agoliveira_brb: let me know when you are back and we can talk
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hello. I want to set a few things with you about the themeing process if you have a few minutes.
<kwwii> agoliveira: sure, shoot
<agoliveira> Nice. I was thinking about the process of using the theme tools. Currently it downloads a standard theme from maemo's svn and uses to build a package. We agreed on have the option to use a local theme and uses it as the base to create a new one, correct?
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> I think that we simply need one package in which all the artwork lives
<kwwii> kubuntu does it this way
<kwwii> and it works great
<kwwii> if we had one package with all the pieces in it defining the sdk would be much easier. Scripts would install everything to the right place
<kwwii> I have no idea why maemo pulls stuff from svn, seems like a bit of overkill to me
<agoliveira> kwwii: Cool. The problem now is, how it will be different from current theme format? For now it can't or we can't use the same tools.
<kwwii> until now the format is not that different...we just need to update the layout to reflect what we want (the email that peter zhu sent explains that)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, I got that. So, should I use the theme package you uploaded to LP as the base? Because I need something to start wiht.
<kwwii> agoliveira: it would be better to start with a totally clean theme
<kwwii> agoliveira: I can then put my updated pics into it
<kwwii> I made a mistake and built the theme before uploading it
<agoliveira> kwwii: Can you provide me with one?
<kwwii> yepp, what should I call it? ume-basic or such?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Something in the line, I guess.
<kwwii> I think there was an email about that somewhere I will check it, make it, and send you a tar.gz of the whole thing
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok. Thanks.
<kwwii> no problem, good to see this stuff moving forward ;-)
<kwwii> agoliveira: email sent
<agoliveira> kwwii: Thanks. I'll Check it out right after lunch (even so because it downloading very slowly :( )
<kwwii> sounds good
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: why is it you are removing galculator from the ubuntu-mobile fset?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, I did that because I put moblin-calc in the staging fset.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: and you did that why?  What's wrong with galculator?
<HappyCamp> Adolivera and bspencer know.
<Mithrandir> given that galculator is hildonised on lpia, I don't see a point?
<HappyCamp> Adolivera replied to my email on ubuntu-mobile and gave some reason. 
<HappyCamp> I really don't know.  I was just told that they wanted it in there.  So I did it.
<Mithrandir> ok, I'll harass bob instead then. :-)
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, thanks! :)
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, by the way.  What is "hppa" architecture?
<Mithrandir> PA-RISC
<Mithrandir> is probably the name you'd know it by
<HappyCamp> Okay.  I don't think I need to mirror that.
<Mithrandir> you don't, nor do you need ia64, I believe.
<HappyCamp> yep, I was already excluding ia64
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: how's the sponsorship process for moblin-chat going?
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, good.  Slower then it should but that is on our end :(  I am working with the developer of moblin-chat to fix a few minor issues and then should be getting it pushed to asac, hopefully today.
<Mithrandir> it would be nice to see it in soon.
<Mithrandir> it's not like it has to be perfect on first try.
<HappyCamp> I am hoping to hand it off to asac today, if we get our stuff done.
<Mithrandir> coolie
<asac> HappyCamp: if you have it ready ... let me know .)
<asac> HappyCamp: if you have questions I am here :) ... actually not each and every lintian warning needs to be fixed to make me happy ... just to most obvious ones.
<asac> if you fix all ... even better ;)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-mobile:jpan_olympia] : gui
<HappyCamp> asac, Will do.  I will hopefully have something for you within two hours.  I'm about to take a shower and then "go to work" :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-mobile:Mithrandir] : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mob ileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<agoliveira> Mithrandir, HappyCamp. Looks like there was a misunderstood about galculator. I hildonized it as scheduled and Bob told me later that there was already a hildonized version of it. I checked it out and, despite it did have some hildonized code, it wasn't working for me and I told Bob that and to keep an eye to not let this kind of duplicated work to happen again. After that, I pushed a fully working hildonized version of galculator
<agoliveira> s/misunderstood/misunderstanding
<dholbach> hey HappyCamp
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-mobile:dholbach] : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mob
<dholbach> oops
<agoliveira> dholbach: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mob?
<agoliveira> :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-mobile:dholbach] : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<dholbach> I wanted to remove the spurious blank in it :)
<agoliveira> We are the Ubuntu Mob! Let's start sell protection instead of support! :-D
* agoliveira remembers that there is already a very large company trying to do that...
<HappyCamp> Mithrandir, I was confused before, when you were talkinga bout moblin-chat I was thinking about moblin-applets.  That is what I am currently working on getting pushed.  Almost have the lintian errors fixed.
<Mithrandir> HappyCamp: ok, what about moblin-chat?
<HappyCamp> I will work with bspencer to find out about moblin-chat
<HappyCamp> I think he or horace own it.
<HappyCamp> Though I guess I can just see if it looks ready.
<Mithrandir> you should be nagging them. :-P
<HappyCamp> I will do that, for sure.
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> I'll revert the galculator commit, and then I'll add some bits to the fsets, then upload.
<Mithrandir> upload moblin-image-creator, that is.
<Mithrandir> sounds good?
<bspencer_> moblin-chat you say?
<bspencer_> ode to moblin-chat, by bspencer_ 
<bspencer_> moblin-chat is functional, works with gtalk
<bspencer_> oh, why, great moblin-chat, art thou so ugly ?
<bspencer_> HappyCamp: did you have a Q about moblin-chat?
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, Yep.  Mithrandir was wondering about getting it into ubuntu.
<HappyCamp> Is it ready to go?  Has anybody run lintian on it? (Probably not since I haven't told anybody about that).
<bspencer_> true, I don't know about lintian
<bspencer_> Peter Zhu has worked on moblin-chat and it works but it still has an unpolished UI
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, pretty easy to do.  You just download all the build output and then do: lintian *.dsc
<HappyCamp> and: lintian *.deb
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, So do you want to try pushing in what we got?  Maybe after we fix up any blatan lintian errors.
<Mithrandir> (or just run lintian on the .changes file)
<HappyCamp> Also is Peter going to be around.
<bspencer_> Peter is not around until Oct 10th
<bspencer_> but having moblin-chat in Ubuntu would be nice
<bspencer_> and it is as good as it will get for this release
<Mithrandir> is that blocked on him, or can we get it in without him being around?
<bspencer_> not blocked
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: have you ever run moblin-chat?
<Mithrandir> yes, ages ago
<HappyCamp> asac, Can you help me get moblin-chat into ubuntu?
<HappyCamp> asac, are these lintian things acceptable? http://moblin.pastebin.org/3316
<agoliveira> kwwii: Still around?
<kwwii> agoliveira: yepp
<agoliveira> kwwii: A question: the layout file will be the same, hildon-theme-layout-4?
<kwwii> agoliveira: no, it will be a different version based on the info that peter zhu put together
<agoliveira> kwwii: Hmmm... will someone create this? This package deppends on a layout to be built.
<kwwii> I certainly hope so :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Maybe I can just point to a "generic" layout package that will have the hildon-theme-layout-4 contents for now?
<kwwii> agoliveira: that sounds like the best plan
<kwwii> reading the emails that were sent they apparently think that I'll create a png file and then adjust the coordinates in the layout accordingly
<kwwii> I don't see why they cannot go ahead and create the layout file as he already sent a test template which shows the pieces
<agoliveira> kwwii: and by your tone I suppose you disagree?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Well, I don't want to have to redo things at this point of the process.
<kwwii> well, normally artists do artwork and developers develop not sure where the overlap is in this process
<kwwii> agoliveira: for now we only have the layout4 stuff so we should keep going with that until we have something new
<kwwii> I am starting a totally new template based on the new stuff anyway, so we can figure this out once I get done with that
<kwwii> once I have the svg done getting the coordinates from that should not be too hard
<agoliveira> kwwii: Should I get done that thing I have now or wait for you?
<kwwii> agoliveira: finish what you have now so that we at least have something in
<agoliveira> kwwii: Okeedokee
<kwwii> agoliveira: the package that I sent you has a black/orange pic in it so it might not be the best but it shows where we are going with this
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok, so I'll stick with the plan and use the current layout as a generic one as a starting point.
<kwwii> agoliveira: great, thanks :-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: One is glad to be of service :)
<kwwii> it probably helps getting paid though :p
<agoliveira> kwwii: In a completely unrelaqted news, yesterday I took sushi and sashimi. I was exited about making it at home until I realized the kind of work it is :)
<agoliveira> kwwii: I took lessons, well said...
<kwwii> agoliveira: killer! I never took lessons but I did make some at home once
<kwwii> agoliveira: what I figured out is that buying a whole salmon makes for a lot of food
<kwwii> that is why I do not eat any sushi or sashimi with salmon anymore
<agoliveira> kwwii: Indeed but to prepare everything, is a lot of work and salmon is easy to prepare compared to tuna which is my favorite... I'll think twice before come out with the idea of make it at home again :)
<kwwii> agoliveira: yeah, it is a lot easier to just go to a restaurant and buy it ;-)
<agoliveira> kwwii: Yep. Now I know why it's so damn expensive :)
<kwwii> ;-)
<ian_brasil> what version of hildon is in UME?
<ian_brasil> or rather does it support GTK UI Manager?
<asac> HappyCamp: yes, please eliminate the duplicate relation depends ... and think about whether we need the "non-dev-pkg-with-shlib-symlink" ... otherwise it looks fine
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-26
<ToddBrandt> asac: you around?
<dholbach> good morning
<Mithrandir> hiya Daniel
<guardian> hi
<guardian> from what i saw on the last image i made for my q1, ubuntu-mobile is only using matchbox-keyboard
<guardian> does someone works on putting hildon input method framework in, now that it's released ?
<guardian> s/works/work
<Mithrandir> your observation is correct.
<Mithrandir> the hildon input framework looks interesting, but I don't think anybody has started looking at it yet.
<mdamt> Still you need a plugin which sends normal keypresses otherwise it doesn't work in browser.
<mdamt> You could make a plugin which embeds the mb-keyboard for example.
<Mithrandir> that's a slight show-stopper. :-P
<mdamt> Yeah, it works only with Gtk apps.
<guardian> that's not what i understood from the hildon input method framework
<guardian> the plugin sends messages to the framework
<Mithrandir> well, midbrowser is basically like firefox, so that ought to work?
<guardian> then it's up to the framework to give the stuff to the apps
<mdamt> Yes, the framework is currently for "normal" gtk.
<mdamt> It doesnt work for Qt apps for example.
<guardian> as far as i remember, the terminal on the nokia n800 receives key presses from the input method
<guardian> but maybe they wrapped it in a gtk app
<guardian> is there anything else evaluated ? scim ? uim ?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hi. Isn't the latest image-builder supposed to get the packages for lpia already? I didn't complete the process yet but so far it's downloding the packages for i386.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I have not changed the default configuration, no.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ah, ok.
<Mithrandir> and I'm trying to get IS to apply my patch so we'll have dailies built for LPIA
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: But this will also apply to the standalone image-breator I suppose?
<Mithrandir> "this" = ?
<Mithrandir> I'm not changing the default configuration and won't for a little while
<agoliveira> I see.
<agoliveira> Thanks
<seb128> Mithrandir: do you need the bluez-utils gstreamer plugin for mobile?
<Mithrandir> seb128: I don't think so, no.
<Mithrandir> why?
<seb128> Mithrandir: because we got rhythmbox and totem crashers due to it and I'm wondering if that's worth keeping it for gutsy or if we should rather delay it to next cycle
<Mithrandir> the alsa plugins works for me
<seb128> if it's creating bugs on the desktop and not used anywhere I would suggest not building it for now
<Mithrandir> agreed
<seb128> another solution would be to binary split it
<seb128> which might be the cleaner way
<Mithrandir> I'll be fine removing it for gutsy and we can spend time on it for hardy.
<seb128> ok
<smagoun> Anyone else having trouble getting to launchpad?
<Mithrandir> smagoun: yes, the canonical data centre is having some connectivity problems.
<smagoun> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> hiya mdz
<agoliveira> Using the Q1 I have to enter my passphrase for the wireless conection twice and it's not being recorded, I have to enter it again everytime I boot the device. Does anyone have the same issue?
<agoliveira> Once it's connected, it works well tough.
<HappyCamp> asac, ping
<asac> HappyCamp: ola
<HappyCamp> asac, hello :)
<asac> i git tree updated?
<HappyCamp> Okay, I think I fixed the duplicate issue a few seconds ago, fingers crossed.
<asac> hehe :) let me know when build is through and lintian run
<HappyCamp> I just removed build-essentials from the build-depends list
<HappyCamp> Was that the correct thing to do.  I'm kinda guessing based on the lintian output.
<asac> yes
<asac> build-essentials is always installed
<HappyCamp> good :)  Okay the build should be done in about 5-10 minutes.
<asac> did you do anything about the versioned lib links?
<HappyCamp> No, what does that mean exactly?  All the (>= ##.##.##)  ???
<HappyCamp> asac, or are you talking about package-has-a-duplicate-relation depends
<asac> no ... you install libxyz.so.1.2.3 + libxyz.so ... but the plain .so link should not be shipped outside a -dev package
<HappyCamp> Oh, I think that has been fixed.  I don't see it in my lintian check
<asac> ok
<asac> HappyCamp: you should definitly add a the interpreter to the network-customize script
<HappyCamp> asac, huh?  what network-customize script?  ToddBrandt is the actual package owner
<HappyCamp> So I don't know a great deal about moblin-applets.
<asac> HappyCamp: ah ok ... and why do you need to explicitly add the depends? (you get package-has-a-duplicate-relation in lintian) ... those can just be removed from control
<HappyCamp> asac, Is there a better way to do the depends?  By the way, you do have comit rights to the package.
<asac> HappyCamp: as you can see in lintian they are automatically detected and added
<asac> HappyCamp: so just don't add them ... ${shlibs:Depends} will contain them
<HappyCamp> asac, don't add any of the ones that lintian complains about.  Delete them from the depends line.  correct?
<asac> HappyCamp: yes
<HappyCamp> will do
<asac> HappyCamp: ok
<asac> HappyCamp: please add #!/bin/sh to the network-customize script ... then we should be ready to go
<HappyCamp> asac, will do
<HappyCamp> asac, maybe I'm blind, but I can't find a script with the title "network-customize".
<asac> me neither ;) ... maybe its generated during build somehow?
<HappyCamp> Ah, okay a question for ToddBrandt 
<asac> ToddBrandt: ^^
<asac> ?
<ToddBrandt> yea, I see your comment
<HappyCamp> He is the owner of moblin-applets
<asac> ToddBrandt: ok fine.
<ToddBrandt> I'm changing the network-customize script
<HappyCamp> Thanks ToddBrandt 
<asac> thanks
<ToddBrandt> asac: about the library version issues, basically I'm just letting automake handle the installation, how would you change the Makefile.am files to only install the .so and not the .so.x.x.x links?
<asac> ToddBrandt: do we need those libs in /usr/lib at all?
<asac> why not install them in pkglibdir ?
<asac> ah you already do that
<ToddBrandt> asac, I install like 12 libs into /usr/lib/hildon-control-panel, no choice on that, and then there are two common libraries that only moblin-applets will use, libhcpcommon and libemap, and I just changed those to go to /usr/lib/moblin-applets instead of /usr/lib
<ToddBrandt> Is that enough or do I need to change it further?
<asac> ToddBrandt: aren't the /usr/lib/hildon-control-panel/ libs technically modules?
<asac> ToddBrandt: like ... http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/html_node/Libtool-Modules.html#Libtool-Modules
<asac> ?
<ToddBrandt> asac: Well they're dynamically loaded by hildon-control-panel and executed, I suppose that makes them modules
<ToddBrandt> lemme take a look at that doc
<asac> right ... so try to add the -module LDFLAGS
<ToddBrandt> ok
<asac> ToddBrandt: now sport ... bbl
* agoliveira have to run to the bank. Be back ASAP.
<ToddBrandt> asac and HappyCamp: I added the -module LDFLAG to each Makefile.am, however it doesn't seem to have changed anything.
<ToddBrandt> except the lintian warning no longer seems to appear
<asac> ToddBrandt: did you push to branch already?
<ToddBrandt> asac: yea
<asac> ok let me pull
<asac> ToddBrandt: yes should be fine ... only thing I would prefer is to not use the lib prefix for the modules: e.g. hcplib_LTLIBRARIES = background.la
<asac> but its not that important
<ToddBrandt> asac: oh, yea I thought that weas the standard for libraries
<asac> ToddBrandt: if you see the automake manual above they drop the lib prefix as well ... as in the end modules are not libs.
<asac> ToddBrandt: let me know if you want to change that ... since they are in not in libdir we can also rename them later i guess
<ToddBrandt> I can change it, just let me make sure hildon-control-panel doesn't have some dependency on that prefix
<asac> ToddBrandt: right ... please test the package as well ... i will only look for packaging issues ... not test functionality.
<HappyCamp> asac, Mithrandir agoliveira who do I talk to about the rsync server not being on for ports.ubuntu.com?
<HappyCamp> ] # rsync ports.ubuntu.com::
<HappyCamp> rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [receiver] 
<HappyCamp> rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(359)
<HappyCamp> mdz would you know?  above question
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Probably someone from IS but I can't point you to someone. I'll have to leave that to the old timers to answer.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: But I can ask around, of course.
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, Thanks.  It was working and now it isn't.  We really kind of need to mirror the site.  Otherwise development is very slow :(
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: I just remembered that our DC had some problems today. Maybe that's the reason of your problem.
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, the http access is working though???
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Yes, it seems to be ok.
<HappyCamp> http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Someone is looking at it already...
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, Thanks!
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: I was informed that we're just overloaded at this moment. The IS people is asking to hold on for some time and try again later but can't promisse any timeframe right now.
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, okay.  Thanks for the update.  Is overloaded mean because of the DC issues or overloaded because too much bandwidth is being used?
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Looks like some syncing procedures were started some time ago and that's putting the rsync daemon to the limit. I think it's not a bandwidth problem.
<HappyCamp> okay.  thanks.  I may bother you tomorrow if I am still seeing it :)
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: No problem.
<ToddBrandt> asac: automake complains if I take the lib prefix from hcpcommon and emap, those two are actually just pulled in by all the other modules, so I'll leave those two as alone
<asac> ToddBrandt: yes ... they are libs so that is sane
<ToddBrandt> I still get this:
<ToddBrandt> dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: could not find any packages for libhcpcommon.so.0
<ToddBrandt> dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: unable to find dependency information for shared library libhcpcommon (soname 0, path libhcpcommon.so.0, dependency field Depends)
<ToddBrandt> How do I get automake to stop its whining
<ToddBrandt> ok, well, I just took out dh_shlibdeps since I don't intend to share any of those libs with other packages
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, it is working again :)
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Cool.
<jbinder> Hi.
<jbinder> So this won't be too good for the Nokia 770? :|
<agoliveira> jbinder: Nope.
<jbinder> :(
* jbinder cries
<jbinder> It looked so cool.
<asac> ToddBrandt: better keep it .. and just ignore the whining
<ToddBrandt> asac: well if I'm going to formalize moblin-applets I might as well go the whole 9 yrads
<ToddBrandt> It doesn't seem to be needed anyway
<asac> ToddBrandt: it is ... you have explicit depends on libs in your Depends: line ... which is bad
<asac> ToddBrandt: those should be dropped
<asac> and be detected by dh_shlibdeps
<ToddBrandt> oh ok, 1 sec
<asac> ToddBrandt: don't confuse: dh_shlibdeps and dh_makeshlibs
<asac> ToddBrandt: i see that you dropped those explicit depends already ... so without that your package should lack depends now
<ToddBrandt> ok, so the debian/control file should have what removed?
<asac> ToddBrandt: i think this was already done by HappyCamp a few hours ago ... let me pull latest
<ToddBrandt> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, hildon-control-panel, evolution-data-server
<ToddBrandt> that's the latest line
<asac> yes thats good ... previously you listed some libs there
<asac> but you need dh_shlibdeps now
<asac> which you still have in git
<ToddBrandt> ok, building, 1 moment
<ToddBrandt> I think it's ready, I just have to make sure everything still runs
<asac> yes please do
<ToddBrandt> basically the two libs in /usr/lib/moblin-applets still have the lib prefix, and all the ones in /usr/lib/hildon-control-panel all have the lib prefix removed
<asac> thats ok
<ToddBrandt> lintian only displays the "lack of a man file for the binaries" warning
<asac> if the libs in /usr/lib/moblin-applets might be of use for other applications as well we might want to make a real -dev package for them at some point
<asac> ToddBrandt: good
<ToddBrandt> should I create a man page with a quick blurb about the three binaries I install? moblin-settings-daemon, moblin-applets, and network-customize?
<ToddBrandt> or will anybody care
<asac> ToddBrandt: better no manpage than a bad one imo
<asac> there are lots of binaries without manpage ... its bad, but not critical
<asac> if you can come up with something reasonable ... even better
<ToddBrandt> hmm, well I'm curious about it, should the man page just install with the moblin-applets package or does it have to be split off into a doc package?
<Mithrandir> it should be in the main package
<ToddBrandt> ok, I'll write a man page, I;ve never done that before
<ToddBrandt> oh, snap, gnome-control-center has a man page too, I'll just use that as a template
<asac> ToddBrandt: maybe look at docbook-to-man as well
<ToddBrandt> k
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  I think that the keybindings stuff might be a little two aggressive
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  I was running emacs on the Samsung, and when I hit Ctrl-s to search, instead, it popped open the Tasks applications
<ToddBrandt> AaronL: hah, didn't think about potential conflicts with custom package installs
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  Also, it seems doubtful that actual devices are going to have a Ctrl key
<ToddBrandt> You can change the keybinding to be something else, also the defaults can be less common
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  they may not even have a USB port for a keyboard
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  plus, the default in Keybindings says CTRL-S, not CTRL-s
<ToddBrandt> AatonL: well they have to have buttons somewhere, my last task is to enable hardware buttons to be bound
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  I seriously doubt that there will be a hardware button provided for the express purpose of starting the dictionary application, for instance
<AaronL2> it's one thing to have one for the Web browser and perhaps the e-mail client
<ToddBrandt> also I'm not sure it delineates between ctrl and ctrl-shift, or even if it's capable of doing so on the samsung with it's odd button setup
<AaronL2> but calculator, terminal?
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  I tried it, it actually shows "Shift" if you have the Shift key pressed
<ToddBrandt> I would have calculator hooked up to a key, what if you want to do a quick math check in the middle of writing a message?
<AaronL2> I think there will be very limited hardware keys for this sort of thing
<AaronL2> may depend on the device though
<ToddBrandt> well I'm just thinking about the samsung at the moment
<ToddBrandt> both it and the Zi9 had 2 or three superfluous keys that could be put to use
<AaronL2> for this to be really useful, I imagine a dedicated hardware key just for the Web browser
<AaronL2> that has a web look on the actual button
<AaronL2> users may have trouble remembering semi-arbitrary key combos like Ctrl-S
<ToddBrandt> so what are you suggesting, that the defaults be unmapped, or that the functionality be removed altogether?
<AaronL2> no, but perhaps only a few apps show up
<AaronL2> not sure
<AaronL2> e-mail, web, perhaps that is it, perhaps there is an advanced dialog to control other things
<AaronL2> and the other applications, by default, are unmapped
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: please don't just randomly grab keys like that; If the device has a keyboard, C-s will most likely be "save".
<AaronL2> maybe unmapped is best
<ToddBrandt> The gnome-settings-daemon had email, www, terminal, calulator, help, logout, power, and the volume knobs
<ToddBrandt> I went ahead and added options for mapping all of the default applications
<AaronL2> unmapped is probably best--an OEM might want to use a unique hardware key for specific apps
<ToddBrandt> makes sense
<AaronL2> okay, onto the next thing
<ToddBrandt> so what are the core apps that could potentially need shortcuts straight out: www? 
<ToddBrandt> I could leave that mapped
<Mithrandir> or make it use XF86XK_WWW and so on
<AaronL2> right, forgot about those special keys
<AaronL2> still, it would be weird to see "XF86XK_WWW" in a user application
<ToddBrandt> wait, what is XF86XK_WWW?
<ToddBrandt> is that a gconf key?
<Mithrandir> no, it's a X keysym.
<AaronL2> I think it is an actual X key event
<Mithrandir> it's what gets sent if you press the web browser button
<AaronL2> on some keyboards, there is a Web button
<ToddBrandt> oh, wierd
<AaronL2> but, there should probably be a user-friendly name for this sort of key
<AaronL2> I wonder what happens when it is pressed
<ToddBrandt> ok, in theory that should already be usable, it's just a matter of figuring out the text designation of that key event
<Mithrandir> the name of my email button is XF86Mail, and it just works out of the box.
<AaronL2> yeah, I suspect that the application already has an appropriate key designation
<AaronL2> Todd:  I think just Web and e-mail mapped initially, to the keys that Mithrandir suggested
<ToddBrandt> ok, that's a great suggestion, I'll look up those keys and try to make them the defaults
<AaronL2> cool :-)
<ToddBrandt> ok, and just www and email
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  another issue, this one for you :-)
<ToddBrandt> and I'll map the "f" key to logout....    just kidding ;)
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  you made a change recently to the xorg.conf file for samsungs
<AaronL2> changed mouse2 to mouse1
<Mithrandir> AaronL2: yes, without that it didn't work on my Q1.
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  However, as a result of this change, when I click with the stylus, it results in a double-click
<Mithrandir> yeah, I noticed that.  If you have a better config, please commit it to git and prod me to upload.
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  for testing, I switched it back to mouse2, and stylus clicking started working properly
<Mithrandir> that is, I noticed it today.
<Mithrandir> hm
<ToddBrandt> oh yea, I noticed that too, things pop open with a single click now
<AaronL2> it's very annoying when you are trying to use menus
<AaronL2> you click on the menu and it immediately opens and closes
<AaronL2> a click and hold works though
<AaronL2> you have to hold down for a second
<Mithrandir> yup, please commit a fix and prod me to get it uploaded
<AaronL2> what's the fix?
<AaronL2> switching back to mouse2 will just result in the mouse not working again
<Mithrandir> if that works for you, it might just have been something else on my end.
<Mithrandir> but, I'm going to sleep now, just finished my beer. :-P
* ToddBrandt wishes he had a beer
<AaronL2> no drinking on the job! :-P
* ToddBrandt damn
<AaronL2> although, no one would know if you are working from home....
<AaronL2> ... in your pajamas ....
<ToddBrandt> well the typing might get worse than usual, better not tempt fate ;)
<AaronL2> little hard to revert a change when I don't have an svn account
<AaronL2> Todd:  how should I go about getting such an account?
<ToddBrandt> moblin uses git, which svn account are you talking about?
<AaronL2> oh, guess I would need a git account then
<ToddBrandt> HappyCamp is the gatekeeper, and he must be appeased before entrance is allowed... $50 bucks is usually enough
<AaronL2> ah right, HappyCampy
<AaronL2> oops
* amitk wonders what a git account is :)
<AaronL2> I meant HappyCamp, really!
<ToddBrandt> heh
<ToddBrandt> asac: ok, the changes are all checked in with the exception of the man page, I'm writing that now
<asac> ToddBrandt: thanks ... will look tomorrow and upload if all looks good. 
<agoliveira> HappyCamp: Is a cheap bouncer :)
* agoliveira is leaving to eat. Bye.
<ToddBrandt> Does anybody know the best way to run utilities that need root access without bothering the user? e.g. on moblin, network configuration won't open when running as user ume, so I imagine sudo needs to be called somewhere while opening the controlpanel, so if there is no root password will it still query the user?
<AaronL2> Todd:  modify /etc/sudoers
<AaronL2> possibly
<ToddBrandt> hmm, good call, thanks!
<AaronL2> Todd:  what exe would you add to /etc/sudoers in this case?
<ToddBrandt> /usr/bin/controlpanel, basically that would 
<ToddBrandt> solve it
<AaronL2> yeah, but it would result in giving all control panel plug-ins superuser privileges
<AaronL2> that's a problem
<ToddBrandt> exactly what I need
<AaronL2> but, it's possible to install additional control panel applets
<AaronL2> some user software may do this
<AaronL2> and such control panel applets could do malicious things, possibly
<ToddBrandt> yea, but they all run within a single process, is it possible to delineate priveleges within different modules of the same executable?
<AaronL2> probably not, the way to go might to use inter-process communication
<AaronL2> and have another EXE started up by the network applet
<AaronL2> that is added to /etc/sudoers
<AaronL2> 'course, that's more work :-)
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  what can you do from the network config applet that requires superuser privileges?
<ToddBrandt> Hildon desktop doesn't work that way, I actually wish it did, in gnome-desktop all those applets are full blown applications with their own execution space, they can be more easily controlled
<AaronL2> sure you can do that will hildon desktop
<ToddBrandt> it edits files in the /etc directory basically
<AaronL2> you would use something like exec to start a process
<AaronL2> from the network control panel applet library
<AaronL2> and communicate with it using inter-process communication of some sort
<AaronL2> perhaps you could use dbus as well
<AaronL2> but, perhaps the network config applet doesn't need superuser privileges
<AaronL2> for instance, the user can easily use /sbin/ifconfig -a
<AaronL2> without superuser privileges
<AaronL2> if it's just for providing information, all that info should be accessible without su privileges
<ToddBrandt> yea I think maybe the easiest solution is just removing the superuser dependency
<AaronL2> :-)
<AaronL2> probably also the safest from a security standpoint
<ToddBrandt> maybe add the network configuration files to a group that user ume is a member of
<AaronL2> well, or make them readable by all
<AaronL2> which files are these?
<AaronL2> I would suspect that they are already readable by all
<ToddBrandt> writeable actually, it needs to be able to edit connection settings
<AaronL2> why?
<ToddBrandt> it's the network configuration applet
<AaronL2> true
<AaronL2> but it could be just used for providing information
<ToddBrandt> configuration implies writing :D
<AaronL2> what is in there that the user needs to edit
<AaronL2> no, not necessarily
<AaronL2> that's not how it works on the Nokia Internet tablets
<AaronL2> some of the control panel applets are just used to provide information
<ToddBrandt> WEP keys, static ip settings, DNS servers, DHCP or no DHCP
<AaronL2> hmm
<AaronL2> I think that Nokia got around this security issue by having a completely separate application for connectivity settings
<ToddBrandt> basically it's the manual configuration dialog, under 99% of people's use cases they'll never touvch it, they'll just use nm-applet's nifty little auto interface
<AaronL2> see, it's perhaps more complicated than global settings
<AaronL2> On the Nokia, you can have different, saved configurations for each connection
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-27
<AaronL2> for instance, there might be multiple wireless access points
<AaronL2> and you want a different IP address for each one
<AaronL2> or a proxy for one but not the other
<AaronL2> or a different WEP key, etc.
<ToddBrandt> well gnome just pops up the root user password dialog when you kick off network mananger, we could do the same things here but the consensus is that it's annoying
<AaronL2> yeah, and I wouldn't expect the user to know it on an actual device
<AaronL2> the OEM might not want that
<ToddBrandt> actually all that is already changeable by nm-applet, it's pretty slick
<AaronL2> true, but once you change with nm-applet
<AaronL2> does it remember static IP address, DHCP, proxy servers, etc.?
<AaronL2> that are specific to that connection?
<ToddBrandt> yep
<AaronL2> then what do you need the network control panel applet for?
<ToddBrandt> the question I don't know the answer to is where
<ToddBrandt> i.e. what actual files contain those settings and why is network configuration not using those instead of digging into a root-user area of the fs
<AaronL2> ToddBrandt:  which package installs the network icon in the status bar?
<ToddBrandt> oh I see, it saves in gconf and the gnome keyring and those changes are picked up by the NetworkManager daemon
<ToddBrandt> network-manager installs the daemon, network-manager-gnome installs the nm-applet status bar applet.
<ToddBrandt> we're building network-manager-gnome on moblin temporarily as we make some minor tweaks, so if you apt-get the version should be 0.6.5-moblin0
<AaronL2> well, /usr/sbin/NetworkManager seems to be being run as root
<AaronL2> and the applet probably communicates with it
<ToddBrandt> the configuration applet must be circumventing NetworkManager and using the if scripts
<AaronL2> also, I think it uses dbus to communicate
<AaronL2> I doubt it even knows about network manager
<AaronL2> but of course, if you already have nm-applets, why do you even need the network control panel applet?
<AaronL2> the way I see it, it might be useful for just getting some current information about the network settings
<AaronL2> but any changes are made using nm-applets
<ToddBrandt> hmm, that's an interesting point
<AaronL2> still, having two separate network thingies might confuse the user
<AaronL2> might be best just to have one, nm-applets
<ToddBrandt> It's really on there for advanced users who have some wierd non-standard network
<AaronL2> but, the changes would be lost when the user switched to a different wireless network
<AaronL2> or, if not lost, possibly conflict
<ToddBrandt> nm-applets stores all the changes in gconf, you can switch back and forth with a single click
<AaronL2> right, but you were referring to advanced users who have some weird non-standard network
<ToddBrandt> nm-applet doesn't allow you to set up a static ip though, or manually add in DNS servers
<AaronL2> such settings as you were referring to are probably only accessible via the network control panel applet
<AaronL2> and if you change them there, I don't think they will be remembered or even known by nm-applets
<ToddBrandt> oh, yea right
<AaronL2> so, the user switches to another hotspot
<AaronL2> and changes made to network control panel applet could actually conflict
<AaronL2> I don't think it is realistic that such special situations will come up
<AaronL2> I think it's mostly going to DHCP via a wireless network
<AaronL2> s/to/to be
<ToddBrandt> interestingly, gnome-nettool is already available and provides all the info on the connections
<ToddBrandt> if it's just a read-only applet we want that might be a better starting point
<AaronL2> except that it crashed when I clicked the ping tab
<AaronL2> and it isn't ported to Hildon :-)
<ToddBrandt> exactly, it needs hildonization
<ToddBrandt> But we could easily add it into moblin applets
<AaronL2> yeah, perhaps
<ToddBrandt> AaronL2: oh, and network configuration apparantly uses liboobs as its interface
<ToddBrandt> Liboobs is a lightweight library that provides a GObject based interface
<ToddBrandt> to system-tools-backends. It's completely abstracted of the
<ToddBrandt> communication and authentication details, making it easy for
<ToddBrandt> applications to integrate with the system details.
<ToddBrandt> sounds kindof hacky
<AaronL2> hmm
<AaronL2> liboops? :-)
<defendguin> hi i was thinking of installing ubuntu mobile on my dell axim 5x  i know it has a 400mhz intel processor but i don't know if it is x86   
<mjg59> It's not
<mjg59> The Axims are all ARM
<mjg59> We don't support ARM at the moment
<defendguin> what a bummer
<defendguin> it doesn't have a wireless card built in what wireless cards are supported for these devices?
<defendguin> what other distributions use the gnome mobile and embedded platform?
<mjg59> As far as I know, the Linux port to the X5 never got to a usable state
<mjg59> It was missing a native bootloader and proper support for the flash
<defendguin> damn
<defendguin> my ipaq doesn't even have a slot for a wireless card
<defendguin> i installed gpe on it but it was not very useful without a network connection and very buggy 
<dholbach> good morning
<asac> ToddBrandt: ok, can you please target the changelog for gutsy upload (changelog: UNRELEASED -> gutsy + update changelog date) and commit that to git?
<ToddBrandt> ok
<ToddBrandt> asac: this is the changelog entry I;m pushing:
<ToddBrandt> moblin-applets (0.7) gutsy; urgency=low
<ToddBrandt>   * added man page, fixed all the remaining lintian package
<ToddBrandt>     warnings and errors.
<ToddBrandt>   * moving to ubuntu gutsy
<ToddBrandt>  -- Todd Brandt <todd.e.brandt@intel.com>  Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:55:32 +0000
<ToddBrandt> it;s pushed
<asac> ToddBrandt: ok great
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: can you test today's daily on your q1 and make sure you see hildonised apps?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure, I'll start to download now.
<Mithrandir> thanks
* agoliveira is eargerly waiting to see hildonized apps :)
<asac> ToddBrandt: hmmm you left over an UNRELEASED changelog ... maybe merge them next time
<agoliveira> Hmmm... will take some time tought... the download is kind of slugish...
<asac> ToddBrandt: uploaded
<asac> ToddBrandt: whats your launchpad id?
<asac> Mithrandir: gksu is not available in UME default install? Whats the idea?
<Mithrandir> asac: I guess we could make it be.
<asac> Mithrandir: ok ... i would need it to include the nm-applet patch todd submitted (to open UME network configuration).
<Mithrandir> sounds like NM should depend appropriately and it'll be pulled in
<asac> ok ... fine.
<bspencer_> kwwii:   you on ?
<HappyCamp> asac, Is moblin-applets good for you?
<kwwii> bspencer_: I am heading out the door...be back in about an hour
<bspencer_> kwwii: ok.  see ya !
<bspencer_> kwwii:   I was just going to chat about themes :)
<bspencer_> a never-ending topic
<bspencer_> but can wait.
<HappyCamp> dholbach, any change you might be willing to help me get moblin-chat into Ubunut?
<dholbach> it should be already
<dholbach> currently in a meeting, but I'll check its state in a bit
<HappyCamp> okay, thanks :)
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ apt-cache showsrc moblin-chat | grep ^Dir
<dholbach> Directory: pool/universe/m/moblin-chat
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ apt-cache show moblin-chat | grep ^File
<dholbach> Filename: pool/universe/m/moblin-chat/moblin-chat_0.11.2ubuntu2_i386.deb
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ 
<dholbach> should be there
* agoliveira grumbles... the bluetooth keyboard he wanted to test with the Q1 went the Dodo way :(
<HappyCamp> Woo hoo!  Only four more minutes to meeting time!!!! :D
<HappyCamp> dholbach, thanks.
<Mithrandir> indeed.
* HappyCamp wonders who put moblin-chat into ubuntu??
<dholbach> HappyCamp: I uploaded it, when we were all in Boston
<HappyCamp> Ah, so we need to push a newer version.
<Mithrandir> amitk,asac,kwwii: Around?  Meeting in two
<HappyCamp> Silly me.  Okay.  Now I remember.  So I need to to look at that patch file again.
<Mithrandir> hiya Mauri
<mawahlen> Hi Tollef
* agoliveira wonders why is HappyCamp so happy about a meeting :P
<HappyCamp> agoliveira, I'm just wierd like that ;)  Unfortunately I have a phone meeting at the same time :(
* dholbach is in the CC meeting at the same time
* asac waves
<agoliveira> That meeting for sure going to be fun :)
<Mithrandir> mawahlen: do you have all your people here?
<bspencer_> only missing rusty
<mawahlen> Rusty isn't at his desk...
<mawahlen> still looking for him
<bspencer_> he was sick yesterday
<bspencer_> maybe he didn't pull through
<Mithrandir> and we're still missing Charlie
<Mithrandir> hi rusty
<rustyl> morning
<rustyl> or afternoon
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, the daily image seems to have some sort od splash problem as the screen flashes like crazy during boot but boots normally otherwise for what I can see.
<amitk> I am here
<agoliveira> hmmm... also can't switch to a console....
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: on the Q1?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yep
<Mithrandir> hm, ok.
<Mithrandir> hello Don_Johnson
<Mithrandir> Don_Johnson: have you seen Charlie today?
<Don_Johnson> hello,  yes charlie is in his office, and should be calling in
<Mithrandir> ok, good
<bspencer_> besides, Charlie would never like that
<bspencer_> oh, never mind, here he is
<Charliefjohnson> bspencer_: Like what?
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: just kidding :)  welcome
<Mithrandir> hiya Charlie
<Mithrandir> let's start then.
<Mithrandir> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:07. The chair is Mithrandir.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<Mithrandir> I don't see any extra agenda items on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting .  dholbach has requested to go first with his item.
<Mithrandir> so,
<dholbach> I just have one quick agenda item; I'm in the Community Council meeting at the same time. I wanted to remind you all of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess - it seems that the stream of uploads that concern ubuntu-mobile is quite steady, but it'd really help to get you all as Ubuntu developers, if you did some uploads yourself using the usual process. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment outlines how to get there.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Using SponsorshipProcess (DanielHolbach)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Using SponsorshipProcess (DanielHolbach) 
<dholbach> Does anybody have any questions about that?
<agoliveira> Oh... that was quick :)
<bspencer_> dholbach:  I understand that we need to fill out a long FreezeException bug
<bspencer_> dholbach: but I haven't gone through the SponsorshipProcess 
<dholbach> bspencer_: for new upstream versions?
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: that depends on your change, but for some cases, yes, you do.
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess explains who to talk to and what kind of information to provide
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess explains who to talk to and what kind of information to provide 
<dholbach> Please talk to me about that: ping me on IRC, drop me a mail; I'm happy to help you get started with whatever you need to get into Ubuntu
<robr_home> hi everyone
<agoliveira> Yeah, ask dholbach because seb128 is too picky! :)
<Charliefjohnson> dholbach:  I can't really comment since I understand what we're talking about.  I'll have to read that web page.
<dholbach> agoliveira: tssssss :)
* agoliveira ducks
<dholbach> Charliefjohnson: that's fine - let me know if you have any questions
<ian_brasil> cool, i wanna be a MOTU too
<Mithrandir> I'd like to echo what Daniel's saying here, what we want to happen is you guys to be able to contribute directly so uploads happen smoother and we don't end up blocking on people.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Get in the line :)
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Oh - this is starting to make more sense.
<dholbach> basically other will upload packages for you (you send patches / packages in by bug reports that have the right people subscribed to it), once you have gone through the process a few times; you can ask the MOTU Council to get an approved MOTU (ubuntu developer) yourself
<agoliveira> dholbach: That's a good point: you have to ask or this is something the council pay attention to?
<dholbach> agoliveira: once your sponsors (people who do uploads for you) tell you "man, you're doing well, you should be able to do this yourself", you should ask the MC; also a good idea to CC your sponsors
<agoliveira> dholbach: Got it.
* agoliveira still have a long way to go... :)
<dholbach> any more questions?
<Charliefjohnson> No
<Mithrandir> ok, moving on then
<dholbach> that's all from me; feel free to ping me and talk to me if you need anyting
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Action items from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action items from last meeting 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you were to look at the packaging of the theme based on what's on LP, what's happened with that?
<bspencer_> LP
<Mithrandir> lp = launchpad
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I'm modifing the theme-tools to use this theme as a base so one can modify it and generate a new theme easily, ready to upload.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: is this kwwii 's theme?
<agoliveira> Yes
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: it's ready to upload?  Have you pushed it into the SponsorshipProcess?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Not yet, it still have some issues with the resulting package. Sometimes the splitter crashes.
<agoliveira> But shouldn't take much longer, I'll return to it as soon as I finish the tests I'm doing with the new images.
<Mithrandir> thanks.
<agoliveira> No problem.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: does this theme include the marquee?
<bspencer_> we can take it offline ... nevermind
<agoliveira> bspencer_: I don't remember seeing it.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: you were to talk with Steve and Bryce about PSB/exa 2.1; how's that gone?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I was out of town Mon-Wed so no.  
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  With it looking like UME is going to rebase on Hardy - it seams to be a mute point though.
<Mithrandir> ok.  This still needs resolving, right?
<Mithrandir> ok, so we'll drop it then
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt: you sent an email about gconf and dbus to the list; is there anything which needs further discussion or clarification there?
<ToddBrandt> I don't think so, bspencer_?
<bspencer_> oy, did I see that email?
<bspencer_> was that asking whether we need dbus for gconf?
<ToddBrandt> I sent it to the ubuntu-mobile list
<ToddBrandt> basically the idea is that we need to wait until we're using gconf more aggressively so we can compare the speed benefit/loss by relying on DBUS instead of CORBA
<Mithrandir> ok, sounds fine to me.
<bspencer_> yes, right.  I want gconf+dbus, but ToddBrandt said it is a couple days work.  We are going to focus on it after the current stuff
<ToddBrandt> bspencer_: right
<Mithrandir> sounds fine to me.
<bspencer_> k
<Mithrandir> I was to send Charliefjohnson a list of licences for UME stuff; we discussed that offline last week, so I believe that's resolved now?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  The GPLv3 issue is being worked outside this meeting.   Canonical is suppose to give what they believe is the GPLv3 roadmap for packages you're including.
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: ack
<Mithrandir> moving on then.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  Status reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status reports 
<Mithrandir> cwong1: can you please start to send your status report a bit earlier than just when the meeting starts?
<bspencer_> cwong1: is such a slacker!
<cwong1> Mithrandir: wil do.. sorry
<bspencer_> always 2mins late
<Mithrandir> cwong1: thanks.
* bspencer_ needs to send his earlier also
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: can you give us an update on chat?
* bspencer_ grimaces
<Mithrandir> ah, you did to the list, sorry.
<bspencer_> well, moblin-chat is functional
<bspencer_> and I think it has been uploaded
<bspencer_> yes, it is in the status
<Mithrandir> moblin-chat | 0.11.2ubuntu2 | gutsy/universe | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
<Mithrandir> it's in gutsy
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: thanks
<Mithrandir> if it needs updating, HappyCamp should be pushing for that
<bspencer_> Mithrandir: right I saw him say that
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: I didn't see an update about mobile-hw-decode, is there any progress to report apart from "working on it"?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  hw-video-decode will be made available for upload into UME as an Beta around Oct. 12th.  Same as graphics.
<bspencer_> Charliefjohnson: any indication of the performance of the 3D graphics on that date?
<bspencer_> will an OpenGL desktop be functional?
<bspencer_> with limited animations ?
<Charliefjohnson> bspencer_: it should be.  That is the first time the 3D driver will be available.  There is an issue with redistribution license that we're working since the 3D driver is closed.
<bspencer_> hm, what does that mean for Ubuntu?
* agoliveira hope that the closeness of this driver does not have the same effect that had for Nokia.
<Charliefjohnson> It means we have to get our ducks in a row as far as the license.  We're looking at modeling the license to be similar to the firmware license Intel's uses for WiFi.
<Charliefjohnson> agoliveira: What's the Nokia effect you mention?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: having the licence ready as early as possible so we have time to review it would be very useful.
<agoliveira> Charliefjohnson: There was a lot of developers that fled from N770/N800 due the closeness of some parts of the system.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: This Intel legal beavers are working on it right now.  
<agoliveira> But this is an issue for another time, I guess.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: "fled"  
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: ok.
<bspencer_> sounds dramatic
<amitk> agoliveira: N800 does not use the 3D acceleration HW, they do use the DSP though.
<agoliveira> amitk: I didn't mean to compare the hardware part but the closeness problem :)
<Mithrandir> can we move on?
<agoliveira> Sure
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: N800 uses a PowerVR 3D graphics core ?  If so, they had the same issue we did.
<Mithrandir> I think that covers the status reports missing from the mailing list.
<Mithrandir> unless somebody feels I've missed them?
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir:  Was there a power policy management update?  Did the blueprint get created?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: the power-management-in-ubuntu spec?
<Mithrandir> amitk: ^^
<amitk> Charliefjohnson: no they don't use the HW at all for the exact reason - That PowerVR isn't willing to open the driver..
<Charliefjohnson> amitk: that is why our's is closed also.
<amitk> Mithrandir: The spec was being driven by Intel AFAIK
<kwwii> re
<Charliefjohnson> bspencer_:  Is Rusty still on the hook for PPM ?
<rustyl> an implementation of the Power Policy Manager was officially launched on the new lesswatts site
<Charliefjohnson> rustyl: What about the UME blueprint ?
<rustyl> and this friday this ppm implementation will be ready to start the process for pushing into ubuntu
<rustyl> Charliefjohnson, that still needs to be done
<rustyl> but it's just going to reflect the project page 
<Charliefjohnson> rustyl: Do you have a target ??  It's been on the TODO list for quite a while.
<rustyl> target?
<rustyl> target date for the blueprint?  is that what you are asking?
<Charliefjohnson> rustyl: Target date for getting the blueprint in place.  
<rustyl> friday
<Mithrandir> as in, Tomorrow?
<rustyl> yeap
<Mithrandir> sounds good to me
<amitk> rustyl: could you send an email to the list when this is done?
<rustyl> yes
<amitk> rustyl: thanks
<rustyl> for those that want a sneak preview... see http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/power-policy/power-policy_works.php
<Mithrandir> interesting.
<rustyl> and the source is at http://www.lesswatts.org/repos/projects/ppm.git/
<Mithrandir> does anybody have any more items for the agenda?
<Mithrandir> if not, I think we're done.
<asac> thanks
<Mithrandir> adjourned
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:47.
<Mithrandir> woo, way less than an hour.  We're getting good at this
* HappyCamp realizes he should have said one thing, so that it would have said that he attended ;)
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> slacker. :-P
<ian_brasil> i have written a porting tutorial for C..i will post it at the weekend just incase someone was thinking of writing one
<bspencer_> agoliveira: if I have a non-lpia chroot, can I change it so that I can build an LPIA app ?
<bspencer_> agoliveira: or do I have to chagne the debian/rules file?
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: the easiest is to just rebuild the chroot
<agoliveira> bspencer_: In the case, the later would be better
<agoliveira> Well, that is for sure the better way but if you don't want to put away the i386 chroot...
<kwwii> bspencer_: did you need something earlier?
<bspencer_> agoliveira: I wanted to apologize for being somewhat disjoint lately
<bspencer_> agoliveira: so many things coming to a head and I'm swamped!  
<agoliveira> bspencer_: No problem :)
<bspencer_> agoliveira: but I want to go through all the apps you've hildonized
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, when is that new UI going to be down :P
<bspencer_> and we have a few guys that want to help out with these, so I want to get them setup to do so
<bspencer_> agoliveira: for example, clayne asked recently about helping with email.  
<agoliveira> Looks like that neither the daily build nor the image-creator images for lpia are working on the Q1.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Yes, I already answered that
<bspencer_> agoliveira: so I was going to point him at claws to check it out and see if there were places he could improve.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: I saw your reply
<bspencer_> :)
<bspencer_> kwwii: howdy sir
<bspencer_> kwwii: I was going to ask about theme stuff.  When you made your theme, did it include the marquee?
<agoliveira> bspencer_: For sure. It needs work on the dialogs in general that don't appear correctly on the Q1 for instance.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: ok.  good place to start.  nice and simple.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: ok, I'll spend time fixing that tomorrow, don't worry too much about it today.
<bspencer_> agoliveira: does the image-creator LPIA image work in Xephyr?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure.
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Didn't try.
<kwwii> bspencer_: nope, it is not in the template yet
<agoliveira> bspencer_: On Q1 it just freezes with a flashing screen.
<bspencer_> kwwii: where do we draw the line on pieces that go in the theme?  For example, what if I create a new marquee plugin, how does thta get themed?
<bspencer_> agoliveira: its a feature ;)
<kwwii> agoliveira: did you find time to finish package the theme?
<HappyCamp> bspencer_, any objection to me making melow LPIA only?
<bspencer_> agoliveira: emergency beacon
<bspencer_> HappyCamp: none from me
<agoliveira> bspencer_: :-D
<bspencer_> HappyCamp: I thikn that makes sense
<kwwii> bspencer_: I think if one wants to add some new widget the stuff would go in the template and the layout file would have to be changed
<HappyCamp> Okay.
<agoliveira> kwwii: Not yet. I have some issues with the splitter.
<kwwii> bspencer_: naturally, the icons would go with the icon theme
<agoliveira> kwwii: But it shouldn't take much longer.
<bspencer_> kwwii: will our main theme be separate from our icon theme?
<kwwii> agoliveira: cool, once we get the done we need to set it as default
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ok.
<bspencer_> like mobile-ken-theme and mobile-ken-icons
<kwwii> bspencer_: for now I have named it ume-basic...both the hildon theme and the icon theme can share that name I guess
<patm> HappyCamp: when would you go lpia only?
<bspencer_> kwwii: same package?  or two different packages?
<kwwii> bspencer_: because we are going to use tango as a base our ume-basic icon theme would only be a few specific icons for ume itself
<kwwii> bspencer_: ideally we would have different packages which are bundled in some metapackage
<kwwii> if not we just put them all in one package with scripts to install the right places, the right way
<bspencer_> kwwii: ok.  I saw that in the icon configuration file.  Can it include tango and "hildon" ?  (sdk-default-icons pkg) Or do we no longer need hildon icons when you are done?
<kwwii> that depends on how many of the hildon icons we want to use
<kwwii> we might want to keep it and put something ahead of that in the heirarcha
<kwwii> y
<bspencer_> yes, ok.  having hildon around as a backup might be nice for apps ported from maemo that have an assumption
<bspencer_> backup = fallback
<kwwii> bspencer_: right, I think that we will find the same true for the hildon widget theme
<bspencer_> can themes have a fallback too?
<kwwii> in the end it comes down to how we handle the policy of being able to install 3rd party apps
<pjm> Mithrandir, are you there
<Mithrandir> pjm: yes
<pjm> Mithrandir, new subject, do the nightly menlow builds include all the apps and the flash ui?
<mjg59> pjm: We don't have permission to distribute the non-free flash
<Mithrandir> pjm: they include the same as the mccaslin builds, but with a different kernel
<Mithrandir> so no flash plugin by default
<pjm> ok, but everything else I assume, all apps...
<pjm> and are they currently lpia or 386?
<Mithrandir> they should be there, yes
<Mithrandir> what are you asking about?  All packages in the current dailies are lpia packages.
<Mithrandir> you can't (reasonably) mix and match packages of multiple architectures.
<pjm> right, again I am behind the lpia curve
<pjm> Mithrandir, so how does it come up, what is show at boot? 
<Mithrandir> the same UI you get today with the "please install flash plugin"
<pjm> got it, thanks
<Mithrandir> (except menlow's currently broken, so there you get X looping, but that's in the pipe to be fixed)
<pjm> what package is broken?
<Mithrandir> the kernel/linux-ubuntu-modules; the psb module is missing
<pjm> yikes
<AaronL2> Mithrandir:  when do you think you might push up a new samsung-q1-ultra-config package?
<Mithrandir> AaronL2: now?
<AaronL2> sure :-)
<AaronL2> btw, I noticed that Rusty made the same change a few check-ins ago
<AaronL2> it's in the git log for xorg.conf
<Mithrandir> ok, uploaded
<agoliveira> Bye guys. I'm a little feverish today (I think I got a flu) so I'll just eat and tuck in earlier.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: get well
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Thanks. The worse was last night anyway so I should be fine in the morning.
<AaronL2> anyone here?  there is a dependency issue--no way to install mobile-basic-flash
<AaronL2> it depends on libxul0d
<AaronL2> libxul0d depends on libxul-common, but the dependency is such that it wants a version of libxul-common that isn't in the repository
<AaronL2> this for the menlow-lpia platform
<AaronL2> bspencer_:  did you see my messages about the dependency issue when installing fsets?
<bspencer_> AaronL2, no, do I need to?
<AaronL2> no, just chatted with you about the issue
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-09-28
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> irc://logicsbox.jf.intel.com/umd
<HappyCamp_ubuntu> whoops :(
<HappyCamp> AaronL2, I'm seeing the same issue.  I think it is a broken package.
<AaronL2> yeah
<HappyCamp> Or they haven't built it yet, or they haven't pushed it out to the repo yet.
<HappyCamp> asac, Mithrandir anyone notice the issue with libxul0d depending on a version of libxul-common which is not in the repo?
<HappyCamp> libxul0d: Depends: libxul-common (>= 1.8.1.4-2ubuntu4) but 1.8.1.4-2ubuntu3 is to be installed
<AaronL2> I think the issue is that libxul0d was increased in version
<AaronL2> but libxul-common was not
<AaronL2> there are some other packages like this that start with libxul, saw in synaptic
<HappyCamp> AaronL2, could be.  Unfortunately, for us, most of the Ubuntu people seem to be on European time, and so are probably asleep.
<AaronL2> HappyCamp:  also, it is necessary to modify both image-creator.cfg and sources_cfg
<AaronL2> HappyCamp:  your e-mail only mentioned sources_cfg
<AaronL2> I got the image-creator.cfg changes from bspencer
<HappyCamp> AaronL2, I mentioned both.
<HappyCamp> AaronL2, my email from 10:59 am.
<AaronL2> well, it says ~/.image-creator/image-creator
<AaronL2> not ~/.image-creator/image-creator.cfg
<HappyCamp> But anyway AaronL2 you only need to modify those files, if you are using a mirror site.
<AaronL2> the stuff for sources_cfg was a bit clearer--you posted the contents of the file instead of directions
<AaronL2> right, I decided to save time by trying the internal mirrors
<AaronL2> much faster
<AaronL2> one issue, however, is when it tries to download flash from adobe
<AaronL2> I had to ensure that http_proxy was turned off when using the internal mirrors
<HappyCamp> Whoops :(
<AaronL2> and then it got stuck on flash
<HappyCamp> well you just need to set no_proxy=intel.com
<HappyCamp> I think
<HappyCamp> or maybe: export no_proxy=.intel.com
<HappyCamp> one of those should work.
<AaronL2> yeah, that might have worked, but I ended up hitting CTRL-C
<AaronL2> and then I had to later do dpkg -a --configure
<AaronL2> because I had interrupted the dpkg process
<HappyCamp> Oh :(
<AaronL2> that completed, but then I had to add the fsets again since that hadn't registered
<AaronL2> it's okay, I got past it
<HappyCamp> Sorry, got to go.  meeting time.  Have a good night.
<AaronL2> good night
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-22
<lool> Morning
 * ogra twiddles thumbs watching the squashfs building
<ogra> gah
<ogra> why the heck does livecd-rootfs *still* default to gutsy ...
 * ogra sighs
<persia> ogra: Consider it a good thing.  I could default to "unstable" like sbuild.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> this new commit mail format on intrepid-changes really annoys me ... why does it have to say [ubuntu/intrepid] ... what a waste
<persia> Because Soyuz tries to be distribution independent, and may someday host more distros.
<persia> I know there's a complete import of Debian that sometimes appears on staging, for which the mail would be different.
<persia> As the PPA infrastructure matures, I'd not be entirely surprised to see proper remix support show up.
<ogra> persia, i dont really care ... it could say that in the text instead of the subject
<persia> I suppose.  File a bug :)
<ogra> nah, to minor :)
<ogra> Get:274 http://127.0.0.1 intrepid/main linux-image-2.6.27-3-lpia 2.6.27-3.3 [21.2MB]
 * ogra twiddles faster
<persia> See, even minor bugs are worth filing whilst you twiddle your thumbs :p
<ogra> heh
<lool> ogra: Did you file the bug?  I'm also annoyed by this thing
<lool> I could patch it out in procmail, but I prefer fixing it at the root
<ogra> no, i didnt yet
<lool> Especially since I don't like mangling mailing list data
<ogra> and i think gmail can only filter on such tags in the subject ... i fear that will be the answer i'll get if filing it
<lool> 273058
<ogra> bug 273058
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273058 in soyuz ""Changes" email repeat the distro and series in all messages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273058
 * ogra subscribes
<davmor2> guys anyone using UNR here?
<persia> davmor2: We tend not to be very helpful for such folk, and they tend to wander off.
 * davmor2 kicks persia's shins
<davmor2> now walk off dude ;)
<ogra> davmor2, dont ... 
<ogra> we need ubiquity first :)
<davmor2> No seriously now I need confirmation on a couple of bugs :(
 * persia thanks mother for the wonderful field hockey guards
<lool> davmor2: You want to hit ogra 
<lool> davmor2: Who's running something more or less UNR based
<ogra> rather less
<ogra> i only use two of their apps in my image atm
 * lool mocks the pathetic attempt of ogra to hide from davmor2 
<lool> maximus and launcher?
<ogra> and UNR totally doesnt use intrepid 
<ogra> yeah
<lool> davmor2: Yeah, the big question is more intrepid/hardy
<lool> We don't care about hardy's UNR
<davmor2> it's okay I'll ping cgregan when he gets here
 * davmor2 slaps lool for trying to get ogra into trouble
<ogra> lool, there is no intrepid UNR (and there likely wont be)
<davmor2> there's only version 1
 * ogra wonders if it was ever made public
<lool> ogra: I don't quite understand what you mean?
<ogra> lool, there wont be any UNR for intrepid ... ubuntu-mobile is the closest we'll get to a netbook image 
<lool> I don't care about having an "official remix"
<davmor2> lool: there is only version 1.0 which is based on hardy :)
<lool> What matters is that we have intrepid UNR-alike packages
<ogra> but my mobile is focused on touchscreens atm
<ogra> and doesnt have any of the massive amount of app patches UNR has
<ogra> UNR is more than the four netbook apps :)
<persia> An "official remix" is an inherent oxymoron
<lool> Hence the quotes
<lool> To sum up, we could help diagnosing bugs in intrepid packages which are UNR-ish (maximus and netbook-launcher), not with hardy-based bugs
<ogra> right
<ogra> go-home-applet and window-picker-applet fall into that category as well
<ogra> GRRRR !
<ogra> umount: /var/build/chroot-livecd/proc: device is busy.
<persia> Did you start dbus?
<ogra> i did run: sudo livecd-rootfs-0.67/livecd.sh -d intrepid -m http://127.0.0.1:9999/ubuntu-ports ubuntu-mobile
<ogra> nothing else
<ogra> after adding two small blocks for ubuntu-mobile to it
<persia> Ugly.  It oughtn't do that.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> something keeps open a file descriptor in proc
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ lsof /var/build/chroot-livecd/proc|grep fd
<ogra> lsof    20813 ogra    6r   DIR    0,3    0 1000864 /proc/20813/fd
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ ps ax|grep 20802|grep -v grep
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ 
<lool> livecd-rootfs ought to protect from starting up daemons like debootstrap does
 * ogra scratches head
<lool> I see it diverts invoke-rc.d for this
<ogra> oh, the fd is the one lspf creates
<ogra> *lsof
<ogra> weird
<ogra> but still 
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ sudo umount /var/build/chroot-livecd/proc
<ogra> umount: /var/build/chroot-livecd/proc: device is busy.
<lool> ogra: Any open shell?
<ogra> no, but ...
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ sudo chroot chroot-livecd/
<ogra> root@osiris:/# mount
<ogra> sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw)
<ogra> binfmt_misc on /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc type binfmt_misc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev)
<ogra> thats intresting
<lool> Ah
<ogra> root@osiris:/# umount /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc
<ogra> root@osiris:/# exit
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ sudo umount /var/build/chroot-livecd/proc
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build$ 
<lool> We should make livecd-rootfs unmount that
<ogra> yeah, apparently...
 * ogra checks what mounts it 
<lool> probably java
<persia> But it doesn't mount it for other flavours.  I've never had that error before
<lool> or mono
<ogra> /etc/init.d/binfmt-support
<persia> java isn't in -mobile.  -mid is the *only* flavour that uses Java
<persia> Oh.  Mono.  Yeah.
<lool> f-spot
<ogra> well, i ran an lpia build
<lool> It should hit Ubuntu live cds though
<ogra> does that have mono at all ? 
<persia> Still have Mono there: I changed the seeds.
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> well, i want to keep mono
<lool> ogra: I don't have binfmt here, what's pulling it?
<ogra> but f-spot is in the livecd since several releases
<lool> wine?
<lool> argh mono-common
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> but since when ... 
<lool> mono-common Recommends it
<lool> Since we have recommends I'd guess
<ogra> it didnt break on the livecd before 
<lool> Let's check with cjwatson
<ogra> nah
<ogra> we have livecd builds 
<persia> But why doesn't that hit the liveCDs?
<lool> perhaps not livecd-rootfs version
<lool> Not sure they enabled reocmmends in livecds yet
<ogra> i pulled it from the archive
<persia> liveCD contains recommends.
<lool> I saw a list of recommends we should fix before enabling them
<ogra> latest version of the package 
<lool> ogra: You'd be the one knowing whether it's in use on cdimage
<lool> or StevenK 
<ogra> i know there is a special thing with germinate to not process recommends
<lool> But I don't have access
 * ogra goes to check
<ogra> ah, meh
<ogra> the live squashfs is built elsewhere
<lool> On the buildds I ugess
<lool> infinity would know
<lool> or cjwatson
<lool> ogra: let's ping cjwatson on this on -dev
<lool> ogra: Going for lunch here now
<lool> ogra: You can bring it up, or I'll check back after lunch
<ogra> i'll do
<crevette> hello
<crevette> persia, did you had time to test bluez-gnome ?
<crevette> hello by the way
<persia> crevette: Indeed I did.  Seems to work well for comms.  I can't get my bluetooth keyboard to work, but I can't get it to work in Hardy, so I think it's me.  I'm still trying to sort it out.
<crevette> have you the whole bluez plugin stack ?
<persia> In hardy?  I think so.  Wasn't it monolithic?
<crevette> humm not sure
<persia> Yeah.  As soon as I can get it working in hardy, I'll try again with Intrepid to make sure there's no regression.  At that point, I'll be very much behind pushing the new version.
<ogra> GRRRRRRR !!!!!!!
<ogra> I: Retrieving Packages
<ogra> I: Validating Packages
<ogra> W: http://127.0.0.1:9999/ubuntu-ports/dists/intrepid/main/binary-lpia/Packages.bz2 was corrupt
<ogra> its definately coming corrupted from the archive 
 * ogra sigs
<ogra> *sighs as well
<ogra> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<ogra>   ubuntu-mobile: Depends: nautilus but it is not going to be installed
<ogra>                  Depends: nautilus-cd-burner but it is not going to be installed
<ogra>                  Recommends: nautilus-share but it is not going to be installed
<ogra> E: Broken packages
 * ogra cries
<ogra> and i had a proper chroot before ... damned
<davmor2> Muhahahahahaha the evilness of the demon chroot :)
<ogra> nah, the evil seb128
<ogra> uploading new versions of stuff ... how can he dare 
 * ogra dd's the first ubuntu-mobile image to an USB key ....
<ogra> meh
<ogra> why do we have prompt in syslinux.cfg
<ogra> grrr
 * ogra is sitting at the boot: prompt ... no kbd on the Q1 at that point
 * ogra goes to dig up a USB keyboard
<ogra> hum
 * ogra sits at an initramfs prompt
<persia> ogra: You could just set up syslinux.cfg to timeout after 5 seconds or so...
<ogra> well, i would like to have casper finding the squashfs first :P
<persia> It doesn't?  Oh my.  How is your VFAT laid out?
<ogra>  /dev/sdb is a squashfs and has casper/filesystem.squashfs
<ogra> err
<ogra> *is a vfat
<persia> Right.
<ogra> i dont see any difference to -mid
<ogra> i even kept the preseed and boot.msg files 
<persia> Maybe the difference is in the initrd ?
<ogra> i can mount sdb manually
<ogra> so casper should be able too
<ogra> for now i only want the livefs to boot, i dont even want to install 
 * ogra checks the casper script ... 
<persia> Forget install.  That's not the important part.  It's that booting a live environment also has an initrd
<ogra> indeed it has
<ogra> i'm in it atm
<ogra> i can mount everything manually
<ogra> and see the filesystem.squashfs file
<ogra> oh sigh ... 
<crevette> persia, do we need to create a FFE ?
<persia> crevette: We will need a Feature Freeze exception.  I suspect that the bug already exists, but until we've a successful test for the input use case, I don't really want to submit it to the release managers.
<crevette> persia, okay sound fine
<ogra> i forgot to set uuid
<crevette> ah I've a wiimite so I can perahps test input on bluetooth
<crevette> wiimote
<crevette> I never tested input with wiimote
<persia> crevette: Cool.  I still haven't gotten my keyboard to work.
<crevette> don't know how much of work it requite to support wiimote input
<crevette> requires
<persia> Do you have a hardy install?  You'll want to test there first, and then with the old version in intrepid, and then with the new version in intrepid.
<persia> I think there's a driver package somewhere.  I forget the name.
<crevette> persia, I'm only have intrepid
<persia> OK.  Then just test with the current version, and the update.
<crevette> I don't know how was the bluez support before, so I'm not the best to talk about regression :)
<ogra> yay
<ogra> there we go
 * ogra dances ... having a working ubuntu-mobile image
<ogra> though the touchscreen doesnt work, wlan needs love and i dont get why netbook-launcher isnt used
<ogra> but to be honest using compiz instead looks a lot better ... hmm
 * ogra starts to agree with persia on that 
<persia> With what?
<ogra> persia, not using netbook-launcher on mobile
<ogra> and having compiz on by default instead
<persia> That's likely to be more pleasing and familiar for the many users of Desktop on 7-9" devices who are the target group to switch to -mobile
<ogra> well, the desktop is a bit boring ... but it would keep me from finding a way to expose the install button
 * ogra wonders what to do with the examples link
<ogra> do i keep that .... 
<ogra> or dont i
 * ogra is surprised that devilspie seems to wor flawless
<ogra> *work
<persia> I'd drop it.  Many of those devices have limited secondary storage.
<ogra> well, it doesnt get installed iirc
<ogra> only used on the livefs
 * ogra adds a quickfix for the touchscreen
<ogra> to bad the wlan doesnt work :(
<ogra> i somehow suspect i should build i386 only for now
<ian_brasil> it says on the FAQ that the netbook remix 'predates the Ubuntu Mobile flavour' ...i thought the remix came much later
<ogra> well, ubuntu-mobile only exists with intrepid as metapackage and image
<ogra> nd for the image part thats even only true in some hours if ubuntu-mobile-default-settings has built and i have redone the handbuilt image
<ogra> and i think i'll build it with -generic for now 
<ogra> not having wlan is somewhat uncomfortable 
<ogra> so someone tell me how epiphany got onto my mobile image 
<ogra> grrr, and evolution
<persia> ogra: recommends.  Fiddle with your seeds more.
<ogra> no recommends that would pull it in
<ogra> heh
<ogra> sorry 
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> * (contact-lookup-applet)
<persia> ian_brasil: The collection of software previously known as Ubuntu Mobile Edition became the Ubuntu MID flavour.  A new Ubuntu Mobile flavour is being introduced (neither is an Edition as such).  The Netbook Remix was released based on hardy prior to either the preparation of Ubuntu Mobile as a flavour, or full integration of Ubuntu MID with the rest of Ubuntu.
<persia> ogra: Please do include e-d-s, even if you don't have evolution.  Also, I much prefer epiphany, personally.  Is it really that big?
<ogra> e-d-s isnt in atm ... but i'll pull it, its small
<ogra> the big part (100M) of evo is evo-common
<persia> Right.  e-d-s provides very handy services for add-on applets that are likely interesting in the -mobile use case.
<ogra> sweeeeeet !! 
<ogra> suspend/resume works, even in the livefs
<ogra> URGH
<ogra> that seed change wasnt so god
<ogra> *good
 * ogra curses loudly
<persia> What did you do?
<ian_brasil> persia: i didn't know that
<ian_brasil> the new ubuntu mobile flavour will still be based on lpia
<persia> ian_brasil: Which part especially?  Maybe I should write a history somewhere.  While I've only been trolling this channel for about 5 months, I seem to have seen a lot.
<ian_brasil> the part about old ubuntu mobile became MID
<persia> I don't think so.  None of the dirty hacks that make MID so lpia specific exist for Mobile.  Ideally, we'll be able to pull them out of MID at some point as well.
<persia> Of course, there aren't any non-lpia MIDs on which one can run Ubuntu, so it's not so important, but there's heaps of older subnotebooks on which Mobile might be the best flavour.
<ian_brasil> so what charcteristics will mobile have then..
<persia> ogra: Got any screenshots?
<ian_brasil> customized for 7" touchscreens..based on hildon/clutter?
<persia> Designed for 7-9" screens.  Mostly based on GNOME.
<ian_brasil> i like the focus on old subnotebooks btw
<persia> They aren't really that different, except that they didn't have the marketing push.  With the new "netbook" craze, there's not really that much different in the shops here, and one can still find lots of used stuff that is nearly the same form factor, just older generation tech.
<persia> Mind you, getting more than an hours battery, especially with WiFi, is hard on those, but that's a different issue :)
<ogra> well, the current mobile seed is focused on 7-9" touchscreen devices
<ogra> and my current build is for x86 ... not lpia
<ogra> though i might change that 
<persia> ogra: I think you ought just do it for all arches.
<ogra> i will
<ogra> but not the handbuilt images i'm doing atm
<ogra> i want something that works
<persia> Oh, of course not :)
<ogra> and lpia is just to broken on the Q1
<ogra> i just tried that
<persia> It's the kernel.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> grrr
<ian_brasil> yes..i have been looking at the power stuff recently..in my tests running skype is a nightmare. are you using the ipw2100 patch for wireless?
<ogra> why did livecd-rootf bork now
 * ogra needs to go shopping for dinner
<ogra> back soon
<persia> ian_brasil: Also, I don't want to get you too excited about older subnotebooks.  Mobile is being 90% tested on the Q1.  While it ought to work for other stuff, there's no guarantee it works perfectly for anything, really.
<ogra> and how do you define "older" ? 
<ogra> like no GL support ? 
<persia> like not lpia.
<ogra> ah
<persia> My favorites are the Casio Hello Kitty notebook (1GHz Crusoe), and the Sony PCG-1 (a crusoe + 512M RAM jammed into a camcorder)
<ogra> i wonder if wither works with the generic kernel
<persia> (not that I have either of those devices: they're just nifty).
<ogra> *either
<persia> The Hello Kitty device had a nifty 256MB flash device for faster boot into linux.
<persia> No idea.  I think we support Crusoe, but the number of Crusoe users is very small these days.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> and i'm not sure they dont need -386 instead of -generic
<persia> They supposedly had all the i686 instructions.  Plus one got to say "You only have a 640bit processor?  How last year.  This little notebook has a 256-bit processor".
<persia> Hmm.  Looks like there were sufficient performance issues with the Edgy kernel that most Crusoe users self-compile kernels now (from forums and bug traffic).  We still ship LongRun, and the docs seem up to date, but I'm guessing it's a bit of a special case now, and not properly supported.
<ian_brasil> so the old ubuntu mobile of which the reference device was the Q1 is now part of the netbook remix and the new ubuntu mobile flavour will still have the Q1 as a reference device (just want to make sure i understand)
<persia> Or maybe not: I'm finding a few references to people happy with the Gutsy kernel.
<persia> ian_brasil: No.
<persia> ian_brasil: It's far more complicated.  I'll try to explain (at least as far as I know).
<ogra> mid uses hildon and is aimed for 4-7"
<persia> OK.  First, there was the announcements of the Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded Initiative.
<ogra> mobile uses gnome and is aimed for 7-9"
<persia> This was an extension of the GNOME Mobile and Embedded Initiative.
<ogra> buth can be run on the Q1
<persia> This was confusing to many people, because of the preexisting (and now mostly defunct) Ubuntu Embedded team who was working to get something like emdebian working for Ubuntu.
<ogra> *both
<ogra> but mobile will be better suited ... mid will be better suited for i.e. the small gigabyte device
<ogra> mid looks quite clunky on the Q1
<ogra> due to the screen size 
<persia> As time passed, most of the focus of the Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded Initiative was focused on getting hildon and moblin into Ubuntu, and porting to the new lpia architecture.
<ian_brasil> persia: yes, i remember this time
<persia> During the hardy cycle, there was work towards getting something to work on various devices, based on the "menlow" and "mccaslin" platforms from Intel.
<persia> This work didn't complete within the hardy cycle, and continued in a PPA.
<persia> This resulted in the first image releases of Ubuntu MID (which was then given an actual name).
<persia> Due to other nomenclature cleanups, the Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded Team became the Ubuntu Mobile Team, as it didn't really include the Ubuntu Embedded folk.
<persia> So, sometime after hardy, Ubuntu MID was first released from a PPA, and was the work of the team now known as the Ubuntu Mobile Team.
<persia> While Ubuntu MID was always targeted for 4-6" devices, none of the developers had these, so most of the work was done with testing on the Samsung Q1 or somewhat awkward development kits.
<persia> Completely independently, a set of Canonical developers from the OEM team was looking at technologies to support the new "netbook" devices.
<persia> Using a mix of GNOME, OpenHand stuff, some of the work that went into Ubuntu MID, and additional development, they produced the "Netbook Remix", based loosely on Ubuntu Hardy.
<persia> This Remix included 4 new packages, and patches to about 59 more.
<ian_brasil> persia: ah, this was the bit i was missing >> Completely independently, a set of Canonical developers from the OEM team was looking at technologies to support the new "netbook" devices.
<persia> (some people quibble about whether this is a Remix, but that's a side issue).
<persia> The resulting Netbook Remix was released previously to the first release of Ubuntu MID.
<persia> At the UDS for intrepid, there were demonstrations of preliminary versions of both Netbook Remix and Ubuntu MID.
<persia> There were also demonstrations of additional stuff based on Ubuntu MID done by the Canonical OEM team.
<persia> There was also a demonstration done of the Edubuntu CMPC image.
<persia> As a result of various people looking at various devices running various environments, it was determined that there should be an Ubuntu Mobile flavour.
<persia> So, for Intrepid, there is work to create Ubuntu Mobile.  This is designed for the 7-9" screens, and is likely to work best on the Samsung Q1 (as that happens to be the 7-9" hardware most likely to be owned by the developers working on this flavour).
<persia> That said, Ubuntu Mobile doesn't have any of the hardware settings or hardcoded configuration that was present in the Hardy-based Ubuntu MID, and so should not be nearly so tied to the specific device.
<persia> Additionally, one of the goals for Hardy for Ubuntu MID was to move away from all the hardcoding, and so enable a wider variety of devices (perhaps including some that are actually the target size, like the Aigo MID and Sharp D4).
<persia> And that brings us up to date.  Any questions?
<ian_brasil> that is really useful stuff...i will put it in a history wiki page mayne...what do you think?
<persia> Sounds like a good idea.  Please note that I could be completely mistaken about some or all of it.  While I follow lots of communications, the above doesn't really represent an official history, but more of just a summary of what I've collected from the not-quite-oral tradition.
<persia> Also, it might be worth linking http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/151 when mentioning the Netbook Remix, as sabdfl does a far better job than I of describing the intent and history of Netbook Remix.
<ian_brasil> persia: well i have followed the project for a while and never knew some of that so i think it is useful anyway...
<persia> ian_brasil: You've been following the mobile efforts longer than I: some of the beginning of what I wrote comes from perceptions from elsewhere in Ubuntu.
<ian_brasil> right, the OEM team looking at the netbook stuff was what threw me
<persia> Yeah, it threw everyone.
<ian_brasil> :)
<persia> I think the issue is confusion about Canonical and Ubuntu.  While Canonical sponsors a fair degree of Ubuntu development (45% of the top 20 Ubuntu uploaders for Intrepid are Canonical employees), and provides a number of Ubuntu related services, there are many people at Canonical who work on other things (and may use Ubuntu as a base)
<ian_brasil> and the arm side of things...is this an official OEM project or part of Ubuntu Mobile or linked with the Nokia Ubuntu Arm stuff?
<ian_brasil> or just something which some devs are looking at in their spare time 
 * ian_brasil knows ubuntu devs do not have spare time but anyway
<persia> heh.  Most Ubuntu Devs work on Ubuntu only in their "spare time" :)
<persia> I don't know of any OEM ARM projects, but I wouldn't know anyway.
<persia> If there is an ARM port, it's not likely to be closely tied to Ubuntu Mobile, but rather more general.  Of the various people I've heard talking about Ubuntu ARM over the past couple years, the three most active areas have been Mobile, Xubuntu, and Server.
<persia> Compare to Ubuntu powerpc: not all flavours are supported, as the developers of some flavours don't have test hardware, etc., but there's nothing specific to Desktop or Server there.  I know at least one person is interested in getting Ubuntu Studio working on powerpc, but it didn't last I heard.
<persia> By "Nokia Ubuntu ARM stuff", do you mean mojo.handhelds.org, or something else?
<ian_brasil> i mean mojo
<persia> I don't know of any specific interactions.  There was someone from Debian ARM at UDS during the ARM discussion session, but I don't remember anyone from mojo.
<persia> I suspect that if ARM becomes a launchpad supported architecture, the mojo work would largely cease (as there's no need to recompile everything if it is already compiled).  I'd hope most of the developers involved (whether Nokia or not) would contribute directly to Ubuntu.
<ian_brasil> me too..makes sense
<persia> I'll admit to an interest personally, but even though I have a device known to work with mojo, I've not gotten around to reformatting and installing.
<ogra> note that some of the ubuntu mobile team attended the maemo simmut last weekend
<ogra> though more with the focus on hildon 2.2
<persia> hildon 2.2 is going to be a *huge* improvement for Ubuntu MID.  We don't have a sufficiently active upstream right now, and it shows.
<ian_brasil> ogra: yes i saw that lool was going. Would be nice to hear what he found out
<ogra> i was there as well
<ogra> we'll try to get hildon 2.2 into jaunty and base mid on it
<ian_brasil> ogra: sorry i did not know
<ogra> hildon 2.2 is supposed to be a clutter/gtk mix seems to be intresting
<ogra> i attended some talks about it 
<ogra> they are also trying to establish some policies like any item needs to be 9x9mm on screen so its finger usable
<ian_brasil> they == gnome mobile
<ogra> the nokia folks
<ogra> the are hildon 2.2 upstream 
<ogra> and we'll try to pull their code in
<ogra> s/the/they/
<ogra> well s/nokia/maemo .. probably ... there is a lot from the community in it ... but nokia hosts it
<ogra> and they slowly seem to get how they have to treat a community ... finally a summit after they just grabbed the code for three years
<lool> Most of the hildon bits themselves are Nokia's
<ogra> ah
<ogra> i wasnt aware ... it sounded the other way round to me 
<lool> maemo was mostly writing apps these days
<ian_brasil> i thought hildon was written by nokia and then they opened itti GMAE
<lool> hildon was always open to my knowledge
<lool> it was not always developed openly, but I don't think it was ever released closed source
<lool> anyway
<lool> They now try to involve the community in where the platform should go
<lool> Like what bindings to provide, announcing that the 2.2 will be clutter based, etc.
<ian_brasil> lool: yes that is excellent to see..along with the opening of lots of closed stuff like the WLAN driver and so on
<lool> Yup
<lool> Just telling people in advance what will be in the next hardware was incredible
 * lool waves &
<ian_brasil> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/History
<ogra> you should probably mention that there will be a ubuntu-mid.img as well as a ubuntu-mobile.img for intrepid ... while the latter is only a first shot release to base further work in jaunty on, the mid image will actually be an improved one from the hardy release
 * persia edits
<persia> ian_brasil: I'm not sure of the current status of the Embedded folk, and while I don't think they are active, I don't want to claim they aren't in a wiki page when it could be taken for a semi-official statement.  I also removed a few phrases that were clearly mine, and added some links.
<ogra> you are so selfish ... not giving away your phrases
<ogra> :)
<persia> I prefer to think of it as keeping the floor clean, rather than leaving my footprints everywhere.
<ogra> that way you'll never get famous :P
 * ogra slowly starts getting aggressive after about 100 failed image build attempts 
<ogra> sigh any why does xscreensaver end up in the image now
<persia> ogra: I think that was rss-glx
<ogra> nope
<ogra> only suggests
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel/packages/mobile-meta-1.113$ apt-cache show xscreensaver-gl|grep Recommends
<ogra> Recommends: xscreensaver | gnome-screensaver
<ogra> the only Recommends that exists 
<ogra> and thats fulfilled by gnome-screensaver
<ogra> so cant be it
<persia> Yes, but germinate is silly.  Swap that around.
<ogra> i surely wont
<persia> OK.
<ogra> and livecd-rootfs doesnt use germinate
<ogra> only apt 
<persia> Hrm.
<ogra> which gets provided the list of packages from the metapackage
<ogra> RAH !
<ogra> Fetched 4839kB in 4min22s (18.4kB/s)                                                                                                                                               
<ogra> W: Failed to fetch http://127.0.0.1:9999/ubuntu/dists/intrepid/universe/binary-i386/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
<ogra> 103rd try
 * ogra starts over *again*
 * ogra doesnt have any idea what to do anymore the script permanently locks up on "intrepid/universe python-gtkglext1 1.1.0-3.1 [144kB]"
<ogra> at least for the last 20 tries
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-23
<ogra-Q1> yippie!!!!
 * ogra-Q1 waves from the first working Q1 live session
<ogra-Q1> ...finally bed time for me
<ian_brasil> cgregan: someone mentioned that you had been looking at specific user profiles and what applications they might use..is there anything public you can point me to about this?
<cgregan> ian_brasil: I was attempting to gather info to create a resource for this information for testing. Unfortunately, I ran into the same issue you seem to have....lack of public data.
<ian_brasil> cgregan: ok np
<cgregan> ian_brasil: If you would like to set up a wiki page, I would be happy to drop in info as I collect it
<cgregan> We could try to gather people to add as we go
<ian_brasil> yes, i can do that
<cgregan> ian_brasil: Excellent
<cgregan> ian_brasil: please email me a link when you do: cgregan@ubuntu.com
<ian_brasil> ok
<persia> ian_brasil: Are you looking to build a list of things for which people use these devices generally, or a specific set of test cases?
 * persia has lots of use cases, and wouldn't mind adding to a list
<ian_brasil> i am trying to 'market segment' the MID market and work out what needs to be done to target each specific segment
<ian_brasil> like for example the primary factor driving the adoption of mobile devices in corporate settings is security. 
<ian_brasil> so ecryptfs-setup-private makes sense
<ian_brasil> i found some marketing report which identified some segments
 * ian_brasil does not know what all these are yet
<ian_brasil> Multimedia Enthusiasts, Gen Y Social Networkers, Younger Gamers, Soccer Moms, Lifestyle Boomers, Adventurers, Frugal Generalists, and Business Application Users. 
<StevenK> Gen Y Social Networkers == people who live on Facebook
<ian_brasil> StevenK: cool, that was one i didn't know
<persia> I'd add public transportation users to that list.  The most common application for tiny (2-3.5"), very small (4-6"), and small (7-9") computers here is for email, light gaming, and reading books on the trains.
<ian_brasil> persia: excellent, no one here does that because of security but I imagine that is a very common use
<persia> ian_brasil: That's just a matter of market penetration.  Here, it's well over 90% for the 2-3.5" range, with over 100% in metropolitan areas (many people carry two).
<persia> for 4-6" and 7-9" the numbers are smaller: I'd say somewhere in the 5-10% range for each, but that's a bit of a guess.  Generally about 1 in 50 people is actively using a larger device on the train (the Nintendo DS is definitely the market leader)
<cgregan> StevenK: ping
<StevenK> Yay, drive-by ping
<lool> Hey
<ogra> StevenK, lool, to enable task generation, we need the header in the seed, need to use the ^ sign in the livecd.sh script and need to trigger the soyuz team to enable task generation from the seed headers, i asked cjwatson to do that for mobile already, bt i think we should do it for mid as well
<StevenK> IE: ubuntu-mid^ as a task?
<ogra> right
<ogra> to avoid surprises through recommends
 * lool is happy with a task
<ogra> i'll talk to colin if he's back 
<StevenK> I don't think anything else does that, though
<ogra> StevenK, define "anything else"
<StevenK> In livecd-rootfs. It seems it does, and I can't read.
<ogra> ah, you mean any other seed/metapackage :)
<StevenK> ogra: Sort it out, and hammer me to fix livecd-rootfs and I'll upload it
<ogra> yeah, its only a ^ :)
<ogra> but a ^ that costed me a day to find ...
<ogra> (i had blindly copied mid to mobile in livefs.sh for testing ... and ended up with a ton unwanted stuff )
<ogra> luckily colin saved me ... i would never have found it and was near filing  grave bug against apt :)
<ogra> *a grave
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/ ;)
<lool> StevenK: How big is the nautilus dep tree?
<StevenK> lool: Well, I could probably tell you if my edit_image script didn't drop the changes and not update the image. :-)
<lool> I should really push mine
<ogra> StevenK, do you have enough space inside the image ? 
<ogra> i mean the vfat
<ogra> else use the grow_image script first
<StevenK> ogra: I grew the image by another 50MB first
<ogra> ah
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> StevenK, btw i still dont understand how build-mobile-img works, it cant work with the original files created by livecd-rootfs, does infinity change the filenames (mainly does he strip the livefs. in the beginning) if he copies it over ? 
<ogra> i always have to mangle it a bit to make it work locally ... for autobuilds i need to understand how ${TYPE} is used
<ogra> which doesnt seem to be conform with the filenames i get from livecd-rootfs
<StevenK> ogra: Okay, so if you run livecd.sh locally, you get livecd.${TYPE}.*
<StevenK> ogra: If you run it on the buildds using BuildLiveCD, you get ${ARCH}.*
<ogra> ah
<ogra> hmm
<StevenK> build-mobile-img was written with the assumption of the latter, of course
<ogra> livecd.ubuntu-mobile.squashfs would then become generic.squashfs for me ...
<ogra> not sure that doesnt clash with the actual livecd image 
<StevenK> No, it would become i386.squashfs or lpia.squashfs
<ogra> right, but still, i assume the livecd uses the same name 
<ogra> since we oth build for i386/generic
<ogra> *both
<ogra> though likely only something infinity can solve anyway
<StevenK> After this operation, 311MB of additional disk space will be used.
<StevenK> lool: ^
<StevenK> lool: 'apt-get install nautilus' in an edit-image session
<ogra> you should probably grow the image by 150M then :)
<StevenK> I didn't get an ENOSPC error last time, though
<StevenK> ogra: I'm also binning mobile-basic-flash and the entire Xul 1.8 stack
<ogra> ah
<ogra> well, i'd give it more than it needs for safety reasons, check how much it grows in real and then do a second edit
<ogra> oh my, thats a lot of changes to get one more image in 
<Fenario> ogra: ping
<ogra> Fenario, yep
<Fenario> ogra can you provide our team with a complete of all the packages you put in the CMPC 1.5 image?
<lool> StevenK: Thanks for the info
<ogra> Fenario, sure, its under http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ogra/cmpc/cmpc-gen1-installer/annotate/34?file_id=livecd.sh-20080428012938-h194unwuw3pk2f1y-9 i can extract the packagelist from there
<ogra> "minimal^ standard^ edubuntu-desktop cheese classmate-initramfs classmate-artwork classmate-tools grub ttf-nafees kpdf kolourpaint thunderbird thunderbird-gnome-support 915resolution"
<ogra> :)
<Fenario> ogra:can you do this and provide it to Alex K?
<ogra> Fenario, where should i send it to ? 
<ogra> oki
<Fenario> ogra:  thank you 
<ogra> davidm, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/ ... i'll blog it as soon as we have the next (fixed seed) image ready
 * lool goes lunching
<Celtiore> hi
<Celtiore> ogra, can i try this image on aigo mid p8860 ?
<ogra> Celtiore, what CPU arch is that ? 
<ogra> its built for generic i386 
<Celtiore> atom
<ogra> should work
<Celtiore> ok
<Celtiore> i try
<ogra> i might build an lpia image as well in the future, the current test images will only be i386 though
<ogra> note that the sidebar isnt in the current image yet ... 
<Celtiore> the 2 probs on aigo mid, are the wifi and touchscreen
<ogra> wifi should work ... 
<ogra> i doub the touchscreen will though
<Celtiore> wifi we can put marvel driver, but touchscreen at this moment we can't find the idc touch 
<Celtiore> wifi use the sd8686 marvel
<ogra> hmm, that might not be in the i386 kernel ... i see it in lpia
<ogra> Celtiore, a good attempt would probably to ask in #ubuntu-kernel if sd8686 marvel can be included by default in the -generic kernel package ... seems teher is no prob to have it in lpia so it should be possible to have it by default in -generic as well
<Celtiore> thanks you
<StevenK> lool: Right, adding nautilus grows the squashfs by 50MB
<Celtiore> ogra: i have "Boot error" message ?!
<ogra> oh ?
<ogra> whats the exact error ? 
<Celtiore> "Boot error"
<ogra> thats all ? 
<Celtiore> i retry the dd
<ogra> nothing more ? 
<Celtiore> no
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> it boots fine here on my Q1
<Celtiore> ogra, first DD was wrong
<Celtiore> booting now correctly
<ogra> good
<ogra> lets see how the touchscreen and wlan behave 
<Celtiore> error with graphics devices
<persia> What graphics HW does the Aigo have?
<Celtiore> don't know :p
<lool> Did anyone try to use usb-creator?
<lool> We should make sure it supports our images
<ogra> it cant
<lool> Would stop people from using dd  :-P
<ogra> it needs isos
<ogra> and you still need dd
<ogra> it just creates dd'able images from ubuntu isos
<ogra> that boot from usb
<lool> ogra: At some point I suggested you discuss with Evan the merge of your two tools; did he get a chance to look at your stuff?
<persia> usb creator needs usb imagewriter, but that didn't get enough attention for intrepid.
<ogra> lool, he said he would take a look if he finds time 
<lool> Ok, thanks
<ogra> but i doubt that has happened yet
<persia> ogra: Are there 2D poulsbo drivers for i386?  Alternately, does your image require 3D?
<ogra> and imagewriter needs some love still
<ogra> persia, it uses gnome ... it will use compiz if possible and fall back to metacity if tehere is no GL support, just like the ubuntu desktop
<persia> Then I suspect the 2F poulsbo driver is not working for i386, and so Aigo MID users need lpia.
<persia> s/F/D/
<ogra> yeah, might be
<ogra> though i386 has a psb driver in xorg
<persia> Hrm.
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build/mobile$ dpkg -l|grep psb
<ogra> ii  xserver-xorg-video-psb                     0.2.1-1ubuntu3                        2D graphics driver for Poulsbo
<persia> Celtiore: Could you paste your /var/log/Xorg.log ?  I suspect there's something odd happening.
<ogra> the last few lines should suffice
<Celtiore> persia: Poulsbo with 3D graphics, HD video playback (720p and 1080i content) and memory controller
<Celtiore> yes ogra 
<Celtiore> i need to reboot and put usb keyboard
<ogra> i suspect its not rebuilt against xorg 1.5 yet
<Celtiore> aigo specs: http://umpchouse.com/aigospecs.php
<persia> Celtiore: I don't think there are working 3D poulsbo drivers X 1.5.
<ogra> oh, 4.8" 800x480 ? 
<ogra> that will get hairy with the mobile image ... 
<Celtiore> i have a box with :
<Celtiore> how would you like to reconfigure your display :
<persia> ogra: It's worth a shot :)
<Celtiore> use default
<Celtiore> create new configuration
<Celtiore> use your backed-up configguration
<ogra> persia, well, but you will definately need a pen :)
<ogra> Celtiore, try default (guessing that will be vesa though)
<persia> ogra: Yep.  It's a MID (although fairly low DPI for a MID) :)
<ogra> iÃm pretty sure you'll have a god bunch of ap probs though
<ogra> *good
<ogra> they are not designed for 480
<Celtiore> ogra, do nothing
<ogra> does it get you back to the config dialog ? 
<Celtiore> yes
<Celtiore> 2mins i have log errors
<Celtiore> http://public.celtiore.fr/test/
<ogra> ha ! the Q1 touchpad isnt as bad as i thought ... just needs some love in the config http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/xournal-shot.png
<ian_brasil> ogra: ha ha ...cool!
<ogra> ian_brasil, seen that ? http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/
<ian_brasil> yes..iam downloading now
<ogra> (the image hasnt the sidebar yet though... next build will)
<ogra> and it has only configuration for the egalax touchscreen on the Q1 yet ... i havent receved other configs yet
<ogra> *recieved
<ian_brasil> i have a geode here ..i will try it on that
<Celtiore> ogra, if you have time can you read the logs ?
<ogra> Celtiore, hmm, the failsafe one should have used vesa and should have worked
<Celtiore> just to have the box for the error message :p
<ogra> if you click on configure and configure it with vesa, does it work ? 
<Celtiore> just ask me to restart
<ogra> seems it tries the intel driver for the psb ... you can also tyr to force psb for that
<ogra> *try
<ogra> seems it didnt detect that it needs psb
<Celtiore> how can i force ?
<ogra> Celtiore, edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf
<ogra> in: Section "Device"
<ogra> add:         Driver          "psb"
<Celtiore> ok
<ogra> no guarantee that works though
<ogra> you can try the same ith vesa instead of psb
<Celtiore> ok
 * lool goes for a walk
<ian_brasil> i thought desktop icons went in /usr/share/icons/hicolor
 * ian_brasil looks for freedesktop.org standards documentation
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-24
<persia> ogra: Thanks for chasing the hardware support buttons.  I'm not sure if it's related, but all the extra buttons on my Kohjinsha work with today's MID image.
<persia> (this represents an improvement from the last time I tried them)
<ian_brasil> persia: wow you have a Kohjinsha ..is it a C3?
<lool> ogra: You're getting a BB? :)
<ogra> lool, nah, just looking at their website
<ogra> i get a n800 tomorrow for 80â¬ from ebay to play with arm stuff
<lool> It's nifty to start hacking on OMAP3, but I don't find it very rich after that
<ogra> well, i'm ltsp upstream dev ... that board makes the perfect thn client ... i'm so waiting for being able to support arm thin clients ... with the mythv ltsp modules you can have the perfect VCR with a powerful server in the basement and the beagelboard as client in your living room
<lool> Good point
<ogra> its the perfect peripherial ...
 * ogra would love if we would start working on home automation some day ... thats a real intresting field
<ogra> the 128M are somewhat a showstopper for real usage 
<ogra> though compcache might help a bit :)
<ogra> yay
 * ogra has the evtouch calibration tool not segfaulting anymore :)
<ogra> so lets see ...
<persia> ian_brasil_: No: it's the SR series.
<lool> ogra: BTW, saw your blog post this morning and: thanks!
<lool> We need more bloggers
<lool> I should get a blog too
<ogra> i'll try to take that role from time to time
<ogra> if we want a community we need to be more wordy :)
 * ogra takes a break before implementing the rest of the evtouch stuff ... my brain melts 
<Glasswalker> Hey, I have an old Hitachi Visionplate (or a pile of them to be exact). I am trying to get a newer linux distro to work on them, and ubuntu-mobile sounds perfect. The visionplate is a Crusoe based internet tablet, using pcmcia wifi, and a compactflash card (recognized as an IDE hdd by linux). It uses the MK712 touchscreen driver.
<Glasswalker> Any idea if I will be able to get ubuntu-mobile running on it? or any suggestions what I might need to do to get it to work?
<persia> Glasswalker: You ought be able to get Ubuntu Mobile to run on them if you have enough extra RAM, but they are larger screens (but similar resolution) than those for which either of the flavours is designed.
<Glasswalker> Yeah they use 800x600 res
<Glasswalker> I think it has 256MB ram
<Glasswalker> might be 128MB
<Glasswalker> I am using a 4GB CF card in them
<Glasswalker> Will ubuntu mobile play nice with the flash storage?
<Glasswalker> (as in it won't thrash it with constant rewrites)
<persia> The default base specs look like the low end for Xubuntu: you might try that.  If you have vertical resolution issues, try Ubuntu Mobile (but I think that expects 3D).  You could try Ubuntu MID, but it's not optimised for a screen with that low a DPI, and may not be as pretty.
<Glasswalker> Meh looking pretty is the least of my worries
<Glasswalker> my main problem right now is I have tried Kubuntu, and DSL linux, Kubuntu I had problems installing, DSL Linux I got to install and boot on it beautifully, but I can't get the touchscreen to work in that one
<Glasswalker> Nothing I install seems to support the MK712 touchscreen driver
<Glasswalker> (even though it has been officially supported in the kernel since early 2.4 kernel apparently)
<Glasswalker> And the lack of any useful information on the visionplate slows progress a bit :) lol
<Glasswalker> I mean I could just run them with Midori, but that project got abandoned years ago, and all the software on the latest image for the thing is ancient...
<Glasswalker> Do you know if there is a way to cross-compile an optimized kernel for the crusoe? so I can take advantage of it's native performance (Rather than it's rather shoddy x86 pseudo-emulation crap) lol
<ogra> persia, ubuntu-mobile expects as much 3D as ubuntu desktop ... i.e. it wil fall back automaticaly to metacity if no GL support for compiz is there 
<persia> You don't need to cross-compile, you just need to recompile.  Supposedly that was fixed in 7.10, but I've not read any reports about 8.04.
<persia> Glasswalker: Specifically, the crusoe *can't* run native code.
<persia> ogra: Ah, cool.  Thanks for the correction.
<Glasswalker> lmao
<Glasswalker> ok fair enough
<Glasswalker> ok
<Glasswalker> so a recompile on-device will do the trick?
<Glasswalker> The only reason I ask is midori is lightning fast on it
<persia> Glasswalker: Well, you could replace the code parsing engine with something different, but given the performance of the 256-bit core, it likely emulates x86 faster than it runs native code.
<persia> midori feels fast because it's stripped down to the bare essentials, rather than because of the kernel (although compiling with the right options helps)
<persia> Glasswalker: But you probably want Xubuntu anyway.  The mobile flavours are more about form factor than performance.  As much as I'd like more users, I'm just not sure it's the best install for your hardware.
<Glasswalker> ok fair enough
<Glasswalker> The reason I gravitated to it was that it was designed for internet devices...
<Glasswalker> But if you think Xubuntu is better for my purpose I will give it a shot.
<Glasswalker> (I have to admit the nice touchy feely interface would be nice though lol)
<Glasswalker> Although my application will handle 90% of the interface anyway
<ogra> the current ubuntu-mobile image i announced yesterday will definately have probs with less than 256M (its just a modified gnome desktop)
<Glasswalker> Ahh, so memory is a concern.
<Glasswalker> yeah I think these max out at 512MB (if I can find ram for them lol)
<ogra> 256 or 512 should be ok
<ogra> but 128 is definately not enough for that image
<Glasswalker> In the end all I want to use them for is a dedicated orbiter for LinuxMCE, so it basically needs a decent browser, and the ability to compile the orbiter client.
<persia> Glasswalker: You may want to create a custom install: start with Ubuntu Minimal, add your favorite browser, an X server, and your client.  If you prepare a package for the client, you only need to compile it once, and can distribute that to all of the machines.
<vadi2> where can I find a list of MID models that are known to support Ubuntu MID?
 * ogra dances
 * ogra has the evtouch calibration working from a running X server ... 
<venome> ï»¿ogra: nice, what calibration tool did you use? for me the parameter calibrate "1" seems not working
<ogra> venome, i'm currently fixing up the evtouch driver to use hal-input with xorg 1.5
<ogra> http://paste.ubuntu.com/50200/ see the hal-set-property cal at the bottom ;)
<ogra> i should be dont tonight ... so tomorrow these fixes should hit intrepid
<venome> well, it seems pretty straightforward ... but i can't find the ev_calibrate tool ... do you know where to get the source / binary ?
<venome> ï»¿ogra: see my previous question please :)
<ogra> ev_calibrate is shipped in the xserver-xorg-input-evtouch package ... but it was very buggy until today, i fixed much of it this morning, wait for my next upload of that package it should basically work then ... what i stil lack on are .fdi files for all supported evtouch devices, currently i only have one for ideaco and one for egalax
<ogra> i made a call on planet.ubuntu.com and the ubuntu-devel mailing list about a month ago that people send me their lshal output for systems with known evtouch devices but the feedback was zero :/
<ogra> fact is that without .fdi the device wont work in intrepid since xorg 1.5 expects all input devices to be handled by hal
<venome> orga: that's quite a lot of work you've done ... i'm looking forward to seeing the results. didn't know there are these changes happeing in intrepid ... Btw. i've got the eGalax too so if you need anything ... but i'm running gutsy where the ev_calibrate seems not yet present ...
<ogra> it is in /usr/lib/xf86-input-evtouch/
<ogra> even in gutsy
<ogra> but it was broken forever in debian and ubuntu
<ogra> if you have an egalax, yu could probably even use my .fdi from bug 261873
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261873
<ogra> (in intreid indeed)
<ogra> *intrepid
<ian_brasil_> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu.com/50200/ is a generic standalone script for calibrating evtouch..i mean like if your touchscreen is not working you could use this script to make it work?
<ogra> ian_brasil_, only if ev_calibate works (which it onyl does since my last upload) and sits in $PATH
<ian_brasil_> ok
<ogra> and indeed it requires the new hal-input layer
<ogra> patiency :) i'll be done tonight with my work ...
<ogra> within the next 24h evtouch should work and have a proper calibration mechanism in intrepid 
<ian_brasil_> ogra: i wasn't trying to rush you at all..just trying to work out in my mind what the script was
<ogra> its a ripoff of the calibrate.sh script shipped in the evtouch driver
<ogra> with added hal support
<ogra> together with the fixes and fdi files from bug 261873 it will make evtouch work flawless and enable you to calibrate from a running X server
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261873
<ogra> all i need are additional .fdi files or lshal output for devices i dont own
<ian_brasil_> the script will be integrated into xserver-xorg-input-evtouch package ?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> together with a gui tool if i make it in time 
<ogra> so you will have a "calibrate touchscreen" entry in your gnome control center (or in the moblin control thingie)
 * ian_brasil_ wishes he had a touchscreen device to send ogra an .fdi file
<ogra> beta freeze is tomorrow ... so i cant promise the gui will be there 
<RwL> trying to install the new gnome-based ubuntu mobile on a samsung Q1, and I'm getting grub Error 15: File Not Found after install & restart. I'd selected Guided --> Use Entire Disk for partitioning. Help?
<RwL> Thinking I ought to manually partition it, but can't find a spec to use
<lool> "GLX and DRI passthrough support for Xephyr" woohoo
<lool> RwL: We miss the kernel meta-packages at the moment, so the images are still known broken :-/
<lool> RwL: Install a kernel manually after installation?
<RwL> thanks for the info, lool, but that's probably more work than interests me right now :)
<lool> RwL: Wait a little more then ;)
<RwL> lool: sure. likely hours, days, weeks? no big deal, just curious to play with this platform
<lool> RwL: The image is built daily; you can rsync it to avoid redownloading if you like
<lool> It's a matter of days
<ian_brasil> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu.com/50238/ its pygtk and very simple but it is a start at least
 * lool &
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-25
<ogra> phew ... 30min before freeze i'm done
<davidm> Woot
<ogra> heh, and i'm on the frontpage of http://www.umpcportal.com/ :)
<ogra> so we got proper touchscreen calibration ... not 100% where i wanted to be, but it will do for this release (i'll write a tool that supports more options for jaunty) and its fully hal capable
<ian_brasil> ogra: nice
<ian_brasil> shame they got your name wrong i think on report
<persia> ogra: That's a great review.  Nice work on -mobile!
<ogra> yeah, and i didnt even do much 
<ogra> sadly his theme is totally broken, my image here looks way nicer :/
<ogra> not sure why ... its the same image 
<persia> No, you just made it work.  Having something that works well on that variety of hardware, and gets "...the best [Linux build] I've seen on a UMPC..."
<ogra> yeah, i was a bit shocked by his next sentence ... "unlike the ubuntu mobile i tried before"
<ian_brasil> he did not review the last release as he thought it was just a developers release apparently
<ogra> ah
<persia> I suspect it's a combination of hardware issues (the Ubuntu MID release really only works on a couple specific pieces of hardware), and had some of the issues we've been chasing for this release.
<ogra> i know him quite well, he's an ex colleague :) i guess i need to drive to cologne one day and take him out for a beer to teach him abotu linux 
<persia> Unfortunate that he claims it's designed for "MIDs", as it's really for the larger segment, but that ought go away over time.
<ogra> yeah
<ian_brasil> ogra: it seems to me you have a fan without even needing to shell out for the beer..so well done ;)
<ogra> :D
<ogra> i hope teh publicity gets me these lshal outputs i need so urgently ... :)
<ogra> i dont really want to release with a touchscreen driver that only supports two devices 
<persia> I'm also reminded, where are we on the psb driver?  Does 2D work?
<ogra> bah, just got a mail ... 
 * persia tries ogra's image on the SR to see how the touchscreen works
<ogra> he complains about the install
<persia> Does the installer not work?
<ogra> it does, but seems grub did break ... "file not found" 
<ogra> i'll try an install myself tomorrow 
<ogra> way to tired for today ... eh touchscreen calibration was a hard bone to chew ... 
<persia> This is for i386!  I thought that problem was lpia-specific
 * persia digs into the ubuntu-mobile image to find out why
 * persia is excited that the lack of the lpia kernel may not be the reason grub doesn't install
<ogra> heh, he wants me for a live interview and question/answer session on friday :)
<ian_brasil> that sounds like fun..post the time of of it to the list
<ogra> i will :)
<ogra> but i'm to tired to negotiate that now ... will do tomorrow
 * ogra just finishes his goodnight beer ...
<lool> Morning
<lool> StevenK: FYI there's a 48x48 icon in upstream's icons; and it's in .xcf so you could create a png if xpms lack colors
<josephus> hey, is there any official/non-official support for Amtek U560? 
<persia> josephus: What proc?  How much ram?  what screen size?  What resolution?
<josephus> A110, 1024x600, etc.. What I'm concerned about is the wifi/bt support as I have no idea what chipset it has
<josephus> specs: http://www.umpcportal.com/products/product.php?id=116
<persia> Should work fine.  It looks a lot like my kohjinsha, except smaller.
<persia> Do you have a unit, or would you be getting it in hopes that it worked?
<persia> josephus: http://www.mahalo.com/Amtek_U560 claims it can be purchased pre-installed with Ubuntu.  I can't find any confirmation at the manufacturer's website, but that's typically a strong argument for HW support :)
<persia> ogra: About the -mobile image: it doesn't boot in KVM.  Any ideas?
<ogra> not really
<persia> OK.  I just get a "Cannot Boot" message.  Works beautifully on real HW.  I'm excited about trying your new calibration tool, to see if I can get the touchscreen to reach the last 5% of the screen.
<josephus> Yeah I've found that page too. Actually I plan to get any UMPC with QWERTY that has Linux support, unfortunately Amtek is the only one I can get in a short time.
<persia> josephus: I can say with some certainty that the Kojinsha SR series, the Samsung Q1 series, the Aigo MID, and the Sharp D4 are the most likely to be supported for -mid for intrepid (note that neither the Q1 nor the SR are really MIDs).
<persia> josephus: It's safest if you get one of those, because there's someone in this channel that has one, and with whom you can discuss any adjustments.  On the other hand, if you don't mind getting your hands dirty a bit, just about anything with Linux support ought to work, and can certainly be made to work for the next release (assuming it meets minimum specs, etc.)
<ogra> persia, i have to find a working basic config, currentl the devices are totally unconfigured until you run the tool first 
<josephus> persia: I will have to get my hands dirty either way but I would be stuck if there were no support for the wifi. 
<ogra> but at least the tool runs in X and has a .desktop entry in the control center
<persia> ogra: Right.  I want to run the tool, and get it configured, and pass you the data :)
<persia> Oh it does?
 * persia looks
<ogra> oh, lshal should suffice 
<ogra> (at least if you know it works with evtouch normally)
<persia> ogra: Oh.  That's easy.  I thought you also needed some other information from a working calibrated xorg.conf
<ogra> not anymore, thats up to you now ... i gave you a clibration tool :P
<persia> OK.  I'm looking for it :)
<persia> What is it called?
 * persia updates in case it requires something newer
<ogra> i did hide it under "Touchscreen Calibration" :)
<ogra> should be in system->Settings
<ogra> or however thats called in english
<ogra> in the menu where you find synaptics and friends
<persia> I have System/Preferences and System/Administration.  Neither has Touchscreen Calibration.  Which package do I need to have installed?
<ogra> xserver-xorg-input-evtouch
<persia> I have 0.8.7-3ubuntu6 installed.
 * persia upgrades
<ogra> yeah, you nee 8
<ogra> *need
<ogra> 7 makes it work from commandline, 8 gives you the X goodness
<persia> Err.  I did that wrong.  upgrading the kernel and firefox in a live session is *not* recommended.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> you should be able to re-login
<ogra> at least for FF
<persia> I won't even bother.  I'm just going to run the calibration tool.  I finished testing the stuff I booted this for, and need to boot back into -desktop to test a couple other things and recover some data before I do a reinstall.
<ogra> thats mobile or mid ? 
<persia> -mobile
<ogra> do you have a proper dark theme ? 
<persia> Everything looks good except the default background for the browser, terminal, text-editor, etc.
 * ogra is curious why it didnt work in the video
<persia> For the terminal, I set to 100% transparency and white text, which is very nice with which to work.
<ogra> whats wrong with the default background ? wasnt it white ? 
<ogra> (i didnt modify it)
<persia> Right.  Can't upgrade: not enough space.  I'll do the calibration in -desktop.
<persia> Yes, it was white, which didn't look good with the dark theme and pretty left and top bars.
<ogra> yeah, or reboot and only upgrade the evtouch package
<ogra> ok
<ogra> yeah, i can change the terminal defaults ... and set a browser homepage
<persia> Well, since I have to reboot into desktop anyway for other reasons, I'll do it that way.
<ogra> the calibration requires a reboot btw
<persia> It looks *great* though.  I'll definitely be running -mobile on the Kohjinsha at UDS.
<ogra> i didnt manage to make it work without restarting hal
<persia> All the more reason to do it in -desktop: that's actually resident on the hard drive.
<ogra> meh, it has a typo
<ogra> (says restart your session instead of system)
<ogra> oh !!!
 * ogra has an idea
<ogra> oh, and i called it "Calibrate Touchacreen" not "Touchscreen Calibration" :)
<ogra> yipppie ... i have the proper solution 
<persia> Earlier in the alphabet is *always* better.
<ogra> no need for a reboot 
<persia> Hrm?
 * ogra slaps forehead why he didnt get that idea yesterday already
<ogra> well, i wanted to run the config commit from a Xsession.d script ... didnt manage to make that work, so you needed to restart the system ... instead of simply doing a relogin
<ogra> and i had to put the commit stuff into an initscript 
<ogra> simply running the initscript at the end of calibration sets the new values :P
<ogra> and you just need to relogin instead of rebooting
<persia> ogra: Nothing turns red for me.
<ogra> takes a moment
<ogra> (you did hit enter, right ? )
 * persia tries again.
<ogra> i just tried it the first time on the Q!
<ogra> Q1
<ogra> worked fine 
<persia> OK.  First step, touch the pen to the screen, and move around all the edges.
<persia> Second step, press Enter
<ogra> right
<persia> Third step, wait.
<ogra> third, wait until top left cross turns red
<ogra> you sure your enter key works ? 
<persia> Yes.  If I now tap the screen 9 times, the tool exits.  Just nothing ever turns red.
<ogra> i'll rework the cursors and font for that screen in jaunty ... it really needs a better visual handling ...
<persia> it's left-to-right, top-to-bottom?
<ogra> right
<ogra> starts top left, goes to top right ... then middle row 
<ogra> same there 
 * persia ignores the lack of visual response, and calibrates the touchscreen.
<ogra> then bottom row
<ogra> you had the values showing up on the screen while moving to the edges ? 
<persia> No.  The values on the screen never changed whilst I was moving to the edges.
<ogra> so in case you are done, just run sudo /etc/init.d/xserver-xorg-input-evtouch start from a terminal and relogin
<ogra> oh
<persia> It also failed to calibrate my touchscreen.
<ogra> are you sure that touchscreen is evtouch ? 
<persia> Does logging out and in again not reload?  Do I need to also restart the init script?
<ogra> well, currently you actually need to reboot 
<ogra> but wait
<ogra> you dont have a .fdi file :P
<ogra> so the driver isnt loaded at all
<persia> RIght.  What do I need to do to get an .fdi file?
<ogra> easiest is to copy the 10-eGalax.fdi in /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osverndor 
<persia> copy it to?
<ogra> look at the two "<match>" lines
<ogra> to something... pick a significant name for your touchscreen device 
<persia> like "PenMount USB" ?
<ogra> change the match lines to match your touchscreen with lshal values (easiest is to install gnome-devcie-manager)
<ogra> yeah, something like that
<ogra> hal needs one or two values to match against to know it should not load evdev but evtouch for this device ... else its silly and says its a mouse or kbd and uses evdev
<persia> Yeah.  That's what is happening now.
<ogra> should also show up like that in Xorg.0.log
<persia> So you recommend matching against info.product and info.capabiliites?
<ogra> yeah, or whatever unique parameters can identify your device 
<ogra> you will need to reboot then 
<ogra> hal wont just pick it up
<ogra> (unless you can unplug it, which i doubt)
<persia> rebooting is no issue.  Let's see what happens.
<persia> I suspect the reason I appeared to be able to calibrate was that I was using the left-click-to-advance function.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> if you have a working .fdi, paste it for me, i have a package update pending
<StevenK> ogra: I note the touchscreen doesn't work for my Q1
<ogra> StevenK, do you have the latest evtouch update ? 
<ogra> it doesnt pre-calibrte anymore, it will only work after a first calibration run
<StevenK> ogra: I have 0.8.7-3ubuntu8 xserver-xorg-input-evtouch
<StevenK> ogra: Ah. How do I calibrate it?
<ogra> good, look for "claibrate touchscreen"
<ogra> it has a menu entry
<ogra> in System->Administartion
<StevenK> Ah. Currently we don't parse system
<ogra> aha
<ogra> well, run sudo calibrate_touchscreen then from a terminal
<ogra> i would have put it in Preferences, but that didnt seem appropriate for a sudo'ed tool
<persia> StevenK: Do you want an applications-merged/ entry to grab Settings and call it "Preferences"?
<StevenK> persia: Nope, since the top level of the System menu is Preferences and it grabs the stuff
 * ogra lols about the "rename it" mail thread in -mobile
<ogra> geez
<persia> StevenK: OK.  You've a working local applications-merged/ entry?
<StevenK> I had.
<persia> Well then, I won't create one :)
<StevenK> I've since hacked code to also parse settings.menu
<StevenK> Unless you think that will pull in too much
<StevenK> Hm. It really does.
<persia> Hrm?  kourou reads settings.menu directly?  I like merging better, unless we want to do something funny.
<persia> ogra: Adding the .fdi file made things turn red, but it's not a very visible red.  Could it change value more, as well as hue?
<ogra> i'll try that, so paste me the .fdi :)
<StevenK> persia: It was going to, and now it isn't.
<persia> :)
<persia> ogra: I'm still rebooting to make sure the calibration worked.  I'll paste you the .fdi soonish now...
<ogra> it worked :)
<persia> (and then I have a good excuse to unbox the new device and calibrate that too)
<ogra> and get me another .fdi :)
<ogra> hmm, i should merge all of them into a evtouch.fdi
<persia> Probably.  Ends up with more matches, but avoids namespace issues.
<persia> Hrm.  Now it won't boot :/
<ogra> :(
<davidm> Almost time for the meeting
<davidm> Starting the meeting
<persia> ogra: Not calibrated :(
<davidm> lool, you about in the meeting?
<lool> I am
<ogra> persia, does /etc/evtouch/config contain values ? 
<ogra> should have 22 lines
<ogra> and does hal see it as evtouch device now ? 
<ogra> lsha|less 
<ogra> and then search for evtouch
<ogra> *lshal indeed
<persia> lots of stuff there.
<ogra> in lshal ? 
<ogra> do you see things like maxx and maxy ? 
<persia> I see all of that in /etc/evtouch/config, but it's dark, I'm distracted, and there are too many keyboards, so I haven't gotten the lshal stuff yet :)
<ogra> well, you should see all the values in lshal as well and you should see evtouch somewhere in there as well 
<ogra> your .fdi probably defines the wrong device ... usually a touchscreen has two or three of them 
<persia> ogra: gnome-device-manager shows it to be evtouch, and has all the hint values: it's just not calibrated correctly.
<ogra> hum
<ogra> what mainly counts is the maxx, maxy, minx and miny
<persia> ogra: So, in about 43 minutes, I'll ask you to lead me *very* slowly through the steps, checking each step, and we can sort it.
<ogra> the min values usually are between 100 and 300
<ogra> max should be between 6000 and 8000 somewhere
<persia> I'm getting stuff like -1019 through to about -5
<ogra> for the min/max values ? 
<ogra> thats definately wrong
<ogra> the Xn/Yn values are fine to be negative, but min/max should be positive
<ogra>  Xn/Yn are the fine tuning values for the crosshairs ... min/max are the edges
<persia> Oh. I get 0 and 20000 then.
<josephus> should intrepid images boot in vmware?
<persia> josephus: I don't know that anyone has tried.  -mid is known to boot in virtualbox and KVM.  -mobile didn't boot for me on kvm, but I've heard no confirmation, or information about testing in other environments.
<persia> Burgundavia: You had a question about form factors?
<Burgundavia> yah, still wrapping my head around the dividing line between mid and netbook, from the package selection sense
<ogra> mid is for 4-7" devices
<persia> Burgundavia: OK.  Firstly, let's ignore the word "netbook".
<ogra> netbook is for netbooks 
<persia> So, there's two flavours that we tend to work on here: ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-mobile.
<ogra> Burgundavia, you mix up -mobile with -mid :)
<lool> No ubuntu-netbook?  :)
<Burgundavia> yes, I do
<persia> ubuntu-mid is a hildon-based environment: loosely related to Maemo.
<persia> lool: Nope.  There is no ubuntu-netbook.
<Burgundavia> right, got that, mobile is not-netbook?
<lool> persia: Is it maemo or is it moblin?
<persia> ubuntu-mobile is a gnome-based environment designed for small screens.
<lool> Ah sorry, no fair making fun of the mess I'm in as well   :-)
<Burgundavia> but ubuntu-mobile lacks nice things like the ume-launcher
<ogra> Burgundavia, -mobile is for touchscreens, the netbook remix is a commercial product for netbooks ... largely without touchscreens using 4 specailly written apps 
<persia> lool: Yes.
 * lool has some odd type of humor today it seems
<persia> Burgundavia: ume-launcher isn't in Ubuntu :)
<Burgundavia> netbook-launcher is
<lool> We should start a nettop image for crazyness
<Burgundavia> but, yes I see your point
<ogra> Burgundavia, netbook-launcher (how its called in intrepid) is only usable on a vers specual setup, i.e. all size values are hardcoded 
<persia> Burgundavia: So, clearly, anyone can use any software on any device, but the idea of -mobile is to target things with touchscreens and limited screen real-estate, but still large enough to fit in a bag.
<Burgundavia> seems to work just fine scaling up on my 1280x768 laptop
<ogra> you need to compile a special version with different values for different screens, thats currently not doable with our manpower
<persia> The idea of -mid is to have something significantly more pocketable.
<Burgundavia> n810-sized (but atom based)?
<ogra> Burgundavia, it is hardcoded to 24px panels and to 5px off the edge of the screen ... you cant use a sidepanel for xample
<ogra> its not built for touchscreens
<Burgundavia> right, I saw that
<Burgundavia> ouch
<ogra> beyond that it doesnt work in intrepuid
<ogra> its also closely bound to clutter 0.6 
<ogra> with clutter 0.8 which is the current version fonts are not displayed etc
<ogra> clutter doesnt work with compiz either 
<ogra> the first few unreleased ubuntu-mobile builds used netbook-launcher 
<persia> Burgundavia: Precisely.
<Burgundavia> yay for my bling doesn't work with your bling
<ogra> after using it for two weeks i really didnt find it suitable for a release
<ogra> it will rock in jaunty but for intrepid it simply isnt ready 
<ogra> needs to much of a rewrite which wont happen before beta i think
<Burgundavia> you need a followup faq post, clearly
<persia> Burgundavia: First we need a common set of questions.
<persia> Currently, most questions are being asked for the first time.
<persia> The only one that seems common is confusion about netbook, but that's been pervasive since the netbook remix was announced.
<ogra> Burgundavia, i took the blame to take maintenance for the netbook apps, they surely fall into the mobile area and i know there are plans to make netbook-launcher work on touchscreens, but as long as its not there i cant do much about it 
<Burgundavia> well, the netbook and mid stuff don't fit into neat existing categories like laptop, desktop and phone
<ogra> so -mobile is what it is and wont change much
<persia> Burgundavia: Well, someone didn't want us to call a MID a PDA.  I don't personally understand why, but...
<ogra> and the community feedback on http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/09/ubuntu-mobile-edition-news-and-first-boot-video/ and the ubuntu-mobile and gnome-mobile lists somewhat prove i'm doing it right ;)
<Burgundavia> yes, some marketing wonks in Intel
<Burgundavia> because PDA == Palm == 90s == boring
<ogra> Burgundavia, btw, what was your KDE complaint about yesterday ? 
<persia> -mobile is new, but the desktop environment doesn't work so well on a 7" screen (it's sitting next to me now: I *know* it's not as pretty as -mobile), but -mobile is too small for a 14" screen.
<persia> Burgundavia: I guess.  My PDAs haven't been boring for years, but they've all been what are now called MIDs.
<Burgundavia> ogra: evtouch and zenity
<ogra> it will work, just not display the help 
<ogra> i'm fine f soemone sends me a kdialog patch
<ogra> it would also need a special .desktop file using kdesu
<ogra> but after all you can call sudo calibrate_touchscreen in any environment 
<ogra> i'll write a wikipage for it once i have enough .fdi files that it actually supports more than 2 device categories ... 
<ogra> currently i can only suport the two touchscreen categories i can test on and despite several calls on planet and mailing lists i didnt recieve more lshal output from other people yet
<persia> ogra: So, lead me through a process that gets me a working calibration.
<persia> (and I'll give you a .fdi file)
<ogra> well, i wonder why you get the 20000 there
<ogra> might corellare with the DPI 
<ogra> *corelate
<persia> ogra: This is only ~170 DPI.  Should be about the same as the Q1U
<ogra> well, if you run the calibration now, do you see the numbers moving ?
<persia> No.
<ogra> else i suspect either its not an evtouch device or the fdi points to the wrong device 
 * persia tries some other things
<persia> Do I need to delete some file?  It won't run now.
<ogra> not at all ? 
<ogra> it should run in any case (even if you dont have a touchscreen)
<persia> Well, it shows the splash, and then tells me the calibration is complete.  No calibration screen.
<ogra> hal-find-by-property --key input.x11_driver --string evtouch
<ogra> does that return a UDI ?
<ogra> should have something like logicaldev_input at the end
<persia> That didn't return anything.  I suppose that means my .fdi file is wrong.  I wonder why it said evtouch in gnome-device-manager
<ogra> what device did it apply to Ã 
<ogra> ?
<persia> ogra: Hrm?  The touchscreen, according to g-d-m.
<ogra> usually you have a HID->USB Interface->Touchpad/screen chain
<ogra> it has to apply to the lowest in the chain
<persia> Computer -> USB UHCI Controller -> Hub -> USB Device -> Mouse HID Device Interface (Boot) Interface -> Pointing Device
<ogra> no touchpad there ?
<persia> touchpad is Computer -> Platform Device -> i8042 AUX2 port -> Touch Pad
<ogra> thats likely the synaptics touchpad
<ogra> there should be a second one for the touchscreen
<ogra> attached to usb
<persia> Nope.  The only listed touchpad is the actual touchpad.  The touchscreen is a "Pointing Device".
<ogra> else you even miss kernel support for it i think
 * persia fiddles with the .fdi file, and tries to fix that first
<ogra> yeah, but thats only half of the device
<persia> Well, it works, it's just not calibrated.
<ogra> it works with evtouch loaded ? 
<ogra> did it work before ? without loading it ? 
<ogra> [   15.737517] input: IDEACO^D  IDC 6680 as /class/input/input2
<ogra> [   15.741238] input,hiddev96,hidraw0: USB HID v1.10 Mouse [IDEACO^D  IDC 6680] on usb-0000:00:1d.2-1
<ogra> [   15.785496] input: IDEACO^D  IDC 6680 as /class/input/input3
<ogra> [   15.788536] input,hidraw1: USB HID v1.10 Mouse [IDEACO^D  IDC 6680] on usb-0000:00:1d.2-1
<ogra> [   15.788555] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
<persia> Yeah.  It works either way, it just isn't calibrated.  Anyway, it's the same screen as used in the Flybook: I think I'll go hunt to see how they do it.
<ogra> thats my dmesg output for my touchscreen
<ogra> do you see yours in dmesg ? 
<ogra>  /class/input/input2 is the actual touchscreen
<ogra> input3 is a strange mouse emulation device
<persia> No, I only have one device showing.
<ogra> i know evtouch work for lifebook ... not sure about flybook
<ogra> whats the actual device name/manufacturer ? 
<ogra> i have a list here for evtouch
<ogra> AHA !
<ogra> flybook is plpevtch
<persia> DIALOGUE
<ogra> and plpevtch isnt packaged :(
<ogra> http://download.plop.at/files/plpevtch/xf86-input-plpevtch-0.0.3.tar.gz
<ogra> i wonder if thats mergeable into evtouch
<persia> My event devices are "Macintosh mouse button emulation", "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard", "DIALOGUE INC PenMount USB", "Power Button (FF)", "Lid Switch", "Power Button (CM)", "Video Bus", "F013FF-68 PC-CAM", "SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad", and "PS/2 Generic Mouse".
<ogra> DIALOGUE INC PenMount USB sounds about right 
<persia> I think the extra function keys come through the camera (as it supports EV_KEY)
<snadge> i was just about to buy a dell mini inspiron 9 .. but then discovered they do not ship it with ubuntu in australia
<persia> Yes, that's the one I can't calibrate.  Intrepid is *much* better than hardy for this device, but it's still off by a bit.
<snadge> i want to buy something cute and small that has ubuntu on it.. are there other options available or coming soon?
<ogra> apt-get install xserver-xorg-input-penmount
<ogra> that should make use of it
<ogra> it emulates wacom
<ogra> so you need to use wacom calibration tools
<ogra> sigh ... and it even emulates it throuh the serial port
<persia> Ahh.  That explains it.  I've been fiddling on and off with evtouch since May, and all along it's been the wrong driver :)
<ogra> http://paste.ubuntu.com/50489/
<persia> ogra: Thanks.  Despite my shame, it will be nice to have this working :)
<ogra> rework that to a .fdi file
<ogra> (probably adjust min/max values)
<persia> Are those sensible defaults with which to start?
<ogra> no idea
<ogra> bug 261873 has example .fdi files
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261873
<persia> Oh, right.  I have some installed :)
<ogra> just make all the options string and make the option names lowercase
<ogra> if you get me your lshal i can create an fdi file to start from ... i bet you need to adjust the values though
<persia> I'll fiddle with it a bit tonight or tomorrow.  If I get lost, I'll give you lshal, but it's worth learning.
<ogra> its worth having the .fdi in the package i guess
<ogra> even if people have to modify it manually its helpful 
<ogra> we need s generalized calibration tool in jaunty
<StevenK> persia: linux-lpia-meta binary NEWed
<ogra> i'll propose a spec for that 
<persia> \0/
<ogra> StevenK, did you get your calibration working btw ?
 * persia will be very excited to see if the "No kernel found" error goes away as expected.
<StevenK> ogra: No
<ogra> StevenK, no in you didnt try ? or no in something was broken 
<StevenK> ogra: The latter
<ogra> if so, what  (i want to have that done before beta)
<StevenK> ogra: No instructions, so I had no clue what to do
<ogra> apt-get install zenity :)
<StevenK> It also requires zenity?
<ogra> it doesnt ... but it shows instructions if zenity is there 
<ogra> less /usr/bin/calibrate_touchscreen otherwise :)
<ogra> it has the instructions inline for now
<persia> ogra: It should Recommends zenity
<ogra> for jaunty i want a full pygtk tool that can also modify the tap values etc
<ogra> persia, that would pull in zenity into -mid i wasnt sure thats desired
<persia> ogra: Hrm.  Good point.
<ogra> not sure how much gnome that pulls in
<StevenK> I'll check that tomorrow
<ogra> basically ... move your pen to all edges, hit enter, wait until top left cross turns red, tap each red cross once
<StevenK> So tap all four corners?
<ogra> all 9 crosses
<ogra> did you get the claibration screen ? 
<StevenK> I wasn't getting any indications I should be using my finger, or the mouse, or what
<ogra> (white screen with a bunch of crosses)
<StevenK> Yes, I got that screen
<ogra> good
<ogra> so it basically works at least
<ogra> best is to use a pen
<ogra> if you did like i sadi above, run sudo invoke-rc.d xserver-xorg-input-evtouch start and restart your X session ... it should eb calibrated then
<ogra> *be
 * ogra wonders if he should fall bac to xdialog 
<ogra> hmm, thats not installed by default either anywhere
<ogra> but would probbly be the better choice for hildon
 * ogra checks whats required for that
<ogra> hmm, no deps at all apart from Xlibs :)
<persia> Falling back to that makes sense then.  We can hint the alternate in the seeds.
<ogra> its not installed though
<persia> ogra: Right.  The calibration tool Recommends zenity | xdialog.  -mid seeds xdialog, and doesn't get zenity.  All is good.
<ogra> Recommends zenity | xdialog | kdialog i guess :)
<StevenK> I'll check if zenity horrible tomorrow
<persia> I'd do zenity | kdialog | xdialog, but that's just me.
<lool> Arf, /me discoveres that the CB is VT capable
<persia> heh
<lool> So the Q1 is an Intel A100 and *isn't* Atom
<lool> Well 110
<lool> Ohh STMicro was using PowerVR, it all makes sense now
<lool> They were at OSIM
 * lool connects the dots
<persia> Q1 is still lpia, just not atom.  You don't need to use the lpiacompat kernel.
<lool> persia: You have a Kohjinsha right?
<lool> Geez the list of PowerVR SGX usage is impressive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series_5_.28SGX.29
<lool> Funny, Moorestown and Nokia tablets are already in the list
<persia> lool: I have a Kojinsha, but the SR, not the SC3 everyone is talking about.
<lool> "Apple unidentified -- SGX + VXD380" erf
<lool> persia: What are the graphics?
<persia> Intel 94x
<lool> blah
<lool> ParamÃ©trage de bluez-utils (3.36-1ubuntu2) ...
<lool> Creating device nodes ...
<lool> udev active, devices will be created in /dev/.static/dev/
<lool> rm: ne peut enlever `rfcomm0-': SystÃ¨me de fichiers accessible en lecture seulement
<lool> mknod: `rfcomm0-': SystÃ¨me de fichiers accessible en lecture seulement
<lool> (long list of failures)
<BenBradley> Hello, I've got a simple (I hope) question: How (can) I use a WinXP box to set up a USB flash drive to install MID on my EeePC?
<ogra> try to google about rawrite (not sure it works with usb drives though)
<ogra> or use a ubuntu livecd and use dd :)
<BenBradley> I've had some trouble with dd'ing an .img to USB, last time I tried my USB drive just blinked at me for a couple hours and ended up corrupted
<ogra> did you give a blocksize (bs=) to the dd command ?
<ogra> dd if=/your/img/file of=/dev/sdX bs=1024 ... something like that 
<crevette> helloo
<lool> Hey I get a huge pile of changes to the mid seed when updatingit
<lool> ogra: Could it be your task changes?!
<lool> ogra: I suspect it's the task-seeds: desktop-common
<lool> ogra: It really pulls a big pile, screen, unzip, wodim, hplip, pcmciautils....
<lool> ogra: Could you confirm this is what you want and upload mobile-meta?  I personally think we want something relatively small and without things like syslog, or standard unix tools in it, just the mobile and desktop internet apps
<BenBradley> Ogra - Thanks for the tip, though in the meantime I found that UNetBootin will write IMG files to USB if you specify "Floppy" instead of "ISO"
<crevette> hello
<crevette> mobile devs, do you need coherence plugin for MID ?
<crevette> lool: If I open a bug on luanchpad could it be possible to have latest python-coherence ?
<lool> crevette: Hmm
<lool> crevette: I don't really need a bug for it to be honest :)
<lool> crevette: You mean in intrepid?
<crevette> yep
<lool> crevette: It depends on the size of the changes
<crevette> I seen you're one of the maintainer on debian 
<lool> crevette: What do you care for in the new release(s)?
<crevette> yeah
<crevette> I can make the coherence plugin works for rhythmbox
<crevette> I wonder if it not cuased by this old version we hve
<crevette> Let me investigate
<crevette> can't
<crevette> it doesn't work totem neither
<lool> crevette: Well did you check whether the new upstream fixes it or is it just a wild guess?
<crevette> it was a wild guess, but I'm installing the debian version
<crevette> debian
<crevette> I'm going to test
<crevette> I hope it could work
<lool> Ok; I can consider spending time to merge it if it fixes coherence support for the apps you mentionned, but if it's just for the sake of it, then it can wait til jaunty
<crevette> yep I totally understand
<ogra> lool, my task changes will do exactly the opposite ...
<ogra> once they are applied
<lool> ogra: Well could you run ./update in mobile-meta and upload it then?
<lool> Perhaps I did things wrong
<ogra> i did run ./update, yes
<lool> on intrepid?
<ogra> but that was on monday last time
<ogra> yes
<ogra> but the soyuz fix isnt in yet
<lool> Could you check again?   :-/
<ogra> cilon made a bunch of seed changes inbetween
<ogra> to prepare the task thing
<ogra> *colin
<ogra> ah, bug 274199 is fix released since 1h
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274199 in soyuz "germinate output for mobile" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274199
<ogra> but that shouldnt change anything in the update script behavior, it really only makes sure there is a task header
<lool> ogra: I'd like to understand why i get a huge pile of new packages then?
<ogra> just checking
<ogra> powernowd does anything on lpia ? 
 * ogra wasnt aware there are p4-clockmod modules in lpia
<lool> ogra: Yeah, it loads the cpu frequency modules
<lool> ogra: The acpi-cpufreq one to be exact
<ogra> yes, but only the p4 ones
<ogra> oh, then it changed since i last touched it 
<lool> I just pushed that fix to hardy
 * ogra runs update 
<ogra> might be that mid shouldnt use tasks, but as soon as you pull something with recommends in it will install all recommends automatically
<ogra> thats what the task prevents as cjwatson explained to me
<ogra> this update should actually drop stuff ... unless the cronjob hasnt run yet
<crevette> lool: latest coherence seems to working better 
<crevette> the rb just need to be upated
<crevette> updated
<lool> the rb?
<crevette> rhythmbox
<crevette> sorry
<ogra> ah, not the roastbeef then :)
<lool> So is it the new coherence or the rb fix which helps?
<lool> (/me was maintaining rb in the past, and used to call it rb too, but "the rb" confused me ;)
<crevette> totem plugin uses latest API
 * ogra just returned from the restaurant :)
<crevette> and so rb need to be updated to use too
<crevette> previously nothing was working
<crevette> rb with 0.5.6 was crashing
<lool> crevette: Does totem work with current coherence?
<crevette> yep
<crevette> but the plugi is not included by default
<crevette> plugin
<lool> crevette: Ok, I'm officially lost; can you sum up the 
<lool> minimal things we should do for fixing broken things in intrepid?
<crevette> lool: pushing updated coherence plugin for rb, I'm taking to have this done upstream
<crevette> sync python-coherence from debian
<lool> crevette: Is that second part required?
<crevette> for totem, I'm going to see if seb128 is interested in providing coherence in totem-plugins-extra
<lool> Ok
<lool> Sounds like a plan
<crevette> yup
<crevette> My plan for now is to sleep
<crevette> bye bye
<crevette> see you
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-26
<persia> In last night's meeting, we passed over the testing of gthumb vs. f-spot.  For the current images gthumb+gphoto2 requires an additional 15.5MB of pre-compressed disk space, and f-spot requires an additional 141MB of pre-compressed disk space.
<StevenK> 141MB!?
<persia> I'm strongly tempted to use gthumb based just on that (although it sacrifices functionality)
<persia> 141MB.  directhex is working to make mono dependency chains smaller, but it doesn't appear to have made intrepid.
<StevenK> Yes, it was a statement of suprise, not questioning
<persia> Also, we already have a lot of the dependencies for gthumb, for various reasons.  -mobile has f-spot, so users with the larger hardware get more features.
<persia> Despite the increasing processing and storage in a modern MID, I'm just not sure we need anything too fancy, as people will want to do real photo processing on some other device anyway.
<persia> The complete list of new pacakges pulled by gthumb + gphoto2 is : gphoto2, gthumb, gthumb-data, libcdk5, libgphoto2-2, libgphoto2-port0, libltdl7
<persia> We could probably drop gphoto2: that's 928k on-disk for the CLI front-end (I may be in the minority of people who uses shells on MIDs)
 * persia tests gthumb
<persia> gthumb seems to look OK.
<persia> At least I can preview pictures, and flip through them to display them to others.
 * StevenK kicks moblin-applets
<StevenK> It depends on icons under /usr/share/icons/gnome/32x32/apps/*.png
<persia> crevette: I'm giving up on bluez-gnome 0.28 again.  The changelog looks great.  Your packaging works great.  The communications and audio portions show no regressions from 0.27.  It solves the appearances bugs.  I can't verify that it works with any bluetooth input devices.  Mind you, I can't get 0.27 to work either, but I'm nervous about any update without knowing it doesn't break something.
<lool> heya
 * StevenK waves to lool
<lool> persia: The uninstallability is still here with the meta kernel in place, and ogra is hit by this as well on i386 images
<persia> lool: Hrm?  Which uninstallability?  The one from me breaking the seeds, the one from grub missing, or the one from the kernel not being installed?
<lool> I know it's kernel / grub interaction, but don't have the specific error
<persia> lool: OK.  It would help to know which error you mean if you say you're seeing it on i386 images.  Each has a rather different cause, and only the one about me breaking the seeds (now fixed) should have affected i386.  There may also be other issues (I know of two different grub issues that were reported at least once, but remain unverified).
<lool> 23:16 < ogra> according to my users the install works flawless ... but they end  up with error 15 after reboot
<persia> That's a different image.  I can't get ogra's image to work well for a number of reasons.  It looks beautiful if you boot off USB.  It doesn't work in KVM.  It doesn't boot on either my Core 2 Duo or my Atom Z250.  It doesn't install for me, even on the hardware on which it boots, and I get different errors each time.
<persia> Anyone with an Aigo MID about?  What's the battery life like?
<lool> amitk: Topic wifi: what was the idea with ath5k fixing for Q1U?
<lool> Or was the plan to get restricted modules?
<amitk> lool: since I am a bit pressed for time here, I am considering doing an LRM for LPIA. I would've liked to study why ath5k doesn't work but that can be left for later.
<lool> k
<amitk> lool: from beta freeze point of view would it be better to have an LRM package in before the freeze? Or do you want aufs first?
<amitk> ...aufs fixed first
<lool> amitk: We are in beta freeze already :-(
<lool> amitk: I think we really want both for intrepid; order perhaps doesn't matter too much
<lool> I'd say the regression potential is higher for aufs, so it would be best to start testing it soonest
<lool> LRM's madwifi is just boring stuff, but we want wifi :)
<lool> I don't see much risk with LRM though
<amitk> ack... working on aufs now
<lool> Cool
<persia> crevette: I think I missed you earlier.  I'm just not having any success with getting bluetooth input to work :/  If I don't use bluez-gnome, it doesn't work.  If I do use bluez-gnome, it doesn't work more, but the not working is the same for 0.25 and 0.28.  As I can't test, I'm not comfortable pushing the upload, unless someone can confirm it doesn't break a working setup.
<crevette> okay
<crevette> can you get in touch with ubuntu dev who can test it ?
<crevette> hello persia by the wau
<crevette> way
<persia> I'm not sure who has the hardware.  I don't think it matters if it's an Ubuntu dev.  I've just not heard of anyone who is known to have bluetooth input working, who could be asked to test the update and make sure it doesn't break.
<persia> Oh yeah.  Good morning :)
<crevette> perhaps a message on bluetooth mailing would do the trick
<crevette> ?
<persia> I thought slytherin sent one a couple weeks ago.  You could send another.
 * lool didn't know about /+junk
<lool> Cool stuff
<persia> Handy, at least.
 * ogra hopes persia made a list of these various issues 
<ogra> i'm only aware of one which seems to be that grub doesnt install anything 
<persia> OK.  #1: doesn't boot in KVM
<persia> #2: doesn't boot on D4
<ogra> D4 ?
<persia> #3 doesn't book on Y7
<ogra> Y7 ?
<persia> Sharp D4.
<ogra> ah
<persia> Panasonic Y7.
<ogra> doesnt boot as to which point
 * persia couldn't find a good large-format desktop from Sharp
<persia> Doesn't boot as in BIOS doesn't recognise the image as a bootable device.
<ogra> ah
<persia> Boots fine on the SR.
<persia> Looks great.
<persia> Can't install.
<ogra> yeah, i read things like that on the blog posts on umpcportal
<persia> You *really* want to change the preseed.  About the only thing you want to preseed is the automatic login.
<ogra> though i wouldnt know why, its a vfat usb image with bootsecor
<persia> Yeah, that's confusing me.  Does it work in virtualbox?
<ogra> i didnt try
<ogra> and i actually cant since i use ose
<persia> I especially don't know why the D4 can't boot off it: I can boot off the -mid dailies just fine.
<ogra> (no usb support)
<persia> No disk image support?
<persia> Claim it's an IDE drive when you boot.
<ogra> disk image, yes, usb, no
<ogra> hmm
<persia> That's what I do with KVM.  Works like a treat for other images.
<ogra> urgh
<ogra> newest VB asks for registration ? 
<ogra> and hangs after that
<davmor2> ogra: suns great isn't it :)
 * persia likes Sun a lot, but the internal communication paths need some work
<persia> davmor2: Have you tried the -mobile image?  Does it work on your hardware?
<ogra> bah, and you still cant alt-tab with it
<ogra> they should rather fix that than adding reg forms
<persia> Anyway, back to issues:
<persia> The install failed to copy some stuff.  I'm redownloading to see if that's my download vs. the manifest files.
<persia> The install also replicated http://people.ubuntu.com/~stevenk/IMG_2090.JPG which makes me very happy.  I've planned a liveCD install tomorrow, and if I can replicate there as well, then it's not me.
<ogra> very likely caused by the missing task
<ogra> that should be fixed in my next build
<persia> OK.  Are you populating the manifest files also?  The filenames are hardcoded in the ubiquity source, so cannot be changed.
<ogra> btw whatever you removed from the seeds didnt make cjwatson happy ... that needed germinate changes as well
<persia> Well, I removed a *lot*.  One thing was restored.  The failure was in my testing.
<ogra> i'm using livecd-rootfs so they should be populated
<ogra> but since the task was missing very likely with the wrong content
<persia> Right.  That would make sense.
<persia> Yay.  redownload finished.  Now for reburn, and another install attempt.
<lool> ogra, persia: what are the currently open bugs on installation issues with the mid and mobile images?
<lool> Any other issue which is not filed as a bug yet?
<lool> I want to milestone all of these to make sure all get fixed for intrepid, and I'd like to raise them at the release meeting later today
<ogra> i dont have any bugs yet 
<ogra> will set them up during the day while i do installation testing
<persia> lool: Good point.  We'll try to get the installation stuff filed as bugs tonight : at least the tasks, daily building, etc.
<lool> ogra: How many different issues are we speaking about right now for your image?  one?
<ogra> lool, i guess only one 
<ogra> might be two 
<lool> persia, ogra: please file them asap, meeting is pretty soon  ;)
<persia> The fact that the image itself is unrecognised by KVM and several HW devices is likely related to handling, rather than to the code.
<davmor2> query on MID should it stop at the boot prompt at the beginning?  I'm guessing not.
 * persia runs an install test.
<ogra> lool, i wont manage before the meeting, simply because i havent seen them yet
<persia> davmor2: It does.  Whether it should or not is open for debate :)
<persia> ogra: Do an install :)
 * ogra added a timeout to mobile
<lool> davmor2: No, it shouldn't, but it makes things easier to test :)
<lool> davmor2: But yeah, we should fix that
<ogra> persia, i will but i doubt it finishes in time and i need a backup of my Q1 first 
<lool> StevenK: I think we want an isolinux.cfg timeout as well
<persia> ogra: What do you have on your Q1 that dpkg --get-selections can't handle?
<ogra> ++
<persia> StevenK: Yeah: having a little menu would be cool too, like the LiveCD has.
<ogra> persia, personl data, some movies (ripped DVDs)  i dont have backed up etc
<lool> ogra: When do you think we could get dailies on cdimage for mobile?
<persia> ogra: Ah.  Makes sense.
<ogra> lool, i hope to get that done over the weekend, i need to understand StevenK's setup on antimony which i dont yet
<persia> ogra: Have I said yet how much I like Mobile?  It's *really* a pleasure to use.
<ogra> :D
<ogra> my blog has another 6 comments pending .... i suddenly have that every morning now 
<ogra> and another .fdi for the touchscreen :)
<davmor2> synaptic fails to open due to admin issues and locks up the system when you hit close on the error message
<ogra> damned, i should have done all that a month ago ... i didnt expect such a success
<ogra> lool, my prob with cdimage is that it really scares me, you can so easily mess the whole system up if you make a mistake
<persia> ogra: No?  There's been demand for Ubuntu Mobile since at least half-way through the hardy cycle.
<ogra> persia, still i havent thought it would kick off a landslied of feedback ... i somewhat underestimated the amount of UMPC users
<persia> ogra: Oh.  My apologies if I didn't make that sufficiently clear previously.  There's *lots* of us, and no good software to install unless one puts it together by hand.
<persia> (until now)
<ogra> yeah, apparently
<ogra> anyway, no usb support in vbox, the .img file cant be read as cdrom either 
<lool> ogra: If you have any doubts, do the cdimage changes but run then through StevenK and cjwatson
<persia> Mind you, -mobile still isn't best for all my hardware, but after today, I'm expecting -mid to be a good install for me.  I just have to figure out how to preserve the Vista partition, because I'm not supposed to delete it.
<ogra> lool, i will anyway
<lool> *them
<ogra> persia, btw, what about your touchscreen, please tell me if i need to include another touchscreen driver for you
<ogra> (though the calibration tool wont work for it)
<persia> Which?
<lool> ogra: One thing I didn't understand is what the image you blogged on was based of? I thought it was the mobile seed, but the umpcportal review and you said it was using standard panel and launcher
<ogra> the one that didnt work with evtouch
<persia> Oh, right.  On the SR, I need to sort out the stuff you pasted me last night.  I'll do that when I have a bit of free time (likely tomorrow).  For the D4, it's *definitely* evtouch, with the two devices and everything.  I'll fiddle about with that, and see if I can't get it calibrated as well.
<lool> But I do see maximus and netbook-launcher in the seed, so I'm confused
<ogra> lool, they are in the seed but not used, i will drop them before the next build
<ogra> lool, the launcher is simply to broken, maximus doesnt work with compi
<ogra> z
<persia> The image is definitely running gnome-menus, but in an implementation that works well at this DPI.
<lool> ogra: Hmm why did you decide to move away from them?  I kind of expected we would get them in an intrepid image
<lool> And I think the users of these as well
<lool> ogra: Yeah, but why use compiz?!?
<ogra> lool, i dont see that i have the time to solve all issues and upstream doesnt either apparently
<lool> And concerning the launcher, what else apart of fonts?
<persia> lool: The image is *very* nice, and works well.  I like it better than the remix.
<ogra> all sizes and positions are hardcoded
<lool> ogra: Hmm ok, will we revisit this for jaunty?
<ogra> to get it working with a panelsize of 48px alone i have to rewrite and patch a lot of it
<ogra> we can
<ogra> lets have a spec and BOF bout it 
<ogra> i'm not convinced by the apps 
<ogra> and as the reviews show you dont really need the launcher 
<persia> I actually prefer not having the launcher.  With the large-font menu, it's a *lot* easier to handle running multiple apps.
<ogra> the go home applet is essentially only a rewrite of the show desktop applet
<lool> I understand your choice, but perhaps it should have been announced more clearly; like, I'd like to have some pointer with the information we just exchanged if someone asks me why the UNR apps weren't part of the images after all
<ogra> i perfer to go with the existing one here 
<lool> (even when talking with OEM people :-)
<ogra> the window picker applet has all sizes hardcoded to 16px which isnt usable with a fingertip
<ogra> and maximus *only* works with metacity
<lool> Well that's not too grave
<lool> The last one
<ogra> i really perfer to use compiz where we can 
<persia> lool: Let's ask this the other way: what do we gain by using the netbook remix applications?
<ogra> it impressed people a lot 
<ogra> my aim was to be as close to gnome upstream as we can 
<lool> ogra: The thing is right now you have to chose between compiz and any clutter or pigment app, such as the launcher or elisa for instance
<ogra> adding four new apps that need a *lot* of fixes and changes that nearly end up in a rewrite isnt maintainable imho
<persia> lool: Then don't use those.
<lool> persia: The apps are popular and widely used by people who only heard about them from a blog post and went the route if installing manually
<lool> persia: Uh thanks for constructive discussion
<ogra> i want gnome upstream love so we only have to care for seeds and the default settings
<ogra> my main target was to keep the maintenance level on our side as low as possible with the biggest outcome possible 
<lool> ogra: Well the choice of metacity isn't exactly a GNOME one ;-)  but that's unrelated
<lool> err compiz
<ogra> adding four apps that need a fulltime person to maintain them isnt really in that scope
<lool> Sure, again, that I understand
<ogra> i didnt make that coice
<lool> what choice?
<ogra> it is our default ubuntu desktop ... it uses compiz if it detects composite 
<ogra> if it doesnt it uses metacity
<ogra> i didnt pick *anything*
<persia> lool: Essentially, I don't see any benefit to the netbook apps.  The netbook remix was popular in part because there are *no* other choices.
<ogra> its all desktop team work i'm using here
<ogra> the only thing i did was set the panel layout and applet layout as well as some theme changes
<lool> ogra: Ok, so you inherited compiz, but I don't think it's in argument in including clutter apps that the default is just to run compiz
<ogra> nah
<ogra> the maintenance overhead is the reason
<lool> It's ok to inherit that, but the default of inheriting should be put in question if that prevents us from running apps we care about
<persia> lool: Why do we care about the netbook remix apps?
<ogra> after using it for two weeks i must admit that i dont care that much about the launcher
<persia> ogra: grub is being installed: but no kernel is being installed.
<ogra> i'm fine maintaining the packages in the archive and nagging upstream aboout fixes (or even contributing them) but i *dont* fell the apps are ready for production
<lool> persia: The UNR apps were tailored specifically for netbooks, are nice and usable; they are already popular and desired
<lool> ogra: Ok; the bugs in the intrepid version really sound like it's not the time to use them
<ogra> right
<persia> lool: I guess.  I'd rather continue with the extension of ograsac desktop as continually discussed since June.
<lool> Which has what upstream?
<persia> GNOME.
<lool> Erf
<persia> No really, it's just a theme tweak, and some panel positioning.  Take a look.
<persia> Oh, and maximise-by-default.
<ogra> lool:
<ogra> This project aims to develop prototypes to make it possible to use a plain ubuntu-desktop base on mobile platforms by just changing small parts of the UI theming and minimal toolkit patches instead of rewriting the world from scratch like other projetcs do ... the aim is to be able to use the existing awesome desktop integration and translation that is in ubuntu already and make the apps behave right on small screens with and without fingertip navi
<ogra> gation (suitable for moble devices as well as netbooks).
<ogra> thats the text of https://launchpad.net/ograsac-desktop
<persia> From which the ubuntu-mobile project grew.
<lool> Exactly the way I understood the state of ograsac-desktop: prototyping
<ogra> well
<ogra> just look at the feedback (and listen to what the people say that tried UNR)
<lool> My point is not that the UI experiments aren't interesting
<lool> At some point, we need to move to an upstream/packaging model
<lool> We're not enough people to do upstream development
<persia> We are already there.  There's not a significant volume of code that differentiates Ubuntu Mobile from Ubuntu Desktop.
<persia> There's no launcher, and it doesn't have the menu changing hacks.
<lool> I want us to build cool netbook images out of the best existing free software technologies
<asac> well ... if there is no other viable upstream, what choices do we have?
<lool> asac: Which part are you commenting on? :)
<asac> "we cannot do upstream development" :)
<asac> is there a viable alternative?
<persia> ogra: Just to make sure: is there anything other than ubuntu-mobile-default-settings that makes this special?
<ogra> the seed
<lool> I'm tempted to respond from a Canonical pov; from an Ubuntu pov I'd simply say that we need to do our best in app selection and configuration of existing components
<ogra> and meta
<persia> lool: How is that different from what was done?
<lool> But avoid writing new software
<persia> There is no new software in Ubuntu Mobile.
<ogra> well, there is stuff from universe like xournal ...
<lool> This is in response to usage of a) ograsac desktop and b) UNR apps
<persia> lool: We used the idea of ograsac desktop: none of the ograsac desktop applications.
<lool> Yes, and that's fine for now
<ogra> there are no ograsac applications :)
<persia> ogra: Well, there's the launcher :p
<persia> (and yes, it doesn't work, and yes, that doesn't matter)
<ogra> which in a similar form is now in mid
<lool> persia: It's like you think your statement contradicts my pov
<lool> I do think that the choice of using GNOME and Gtk+ components for mobile for now makes sense, and customizing its look
<persia> lool: It seems to me that you have an attachment to the applications in netbook remix.  I don't understand the attachment, as I find the launcher to actively interfere with the way that I use such a device.
<lool> But as you were saying, you are pushing for ograsac-desktop "since June"
<lool> persia: I have an attachment to the UI experiment as well and it has the advantage of having a real upstream; this upstream might not be up to the level where we're confident using it in official images, especially not in intrepid, but there are upstream development resources there
<lool> And user interest
<persia> OK.  I can understand that.  I'm not opposed to revisiting whether upstream has code in condition for deployment for jaunty.  I just don't think the current images deserve criticism for application selection.
<lool> I expressed criticism in the choice of compiz which is only an inheritance and goes in the way of choics which could have involved clutter of pigment
<lool> *choics
<lool> Grah, my e key has some stuff below it
<lool> Of course you don't use "e" that much
<persia> OK.  Maybe I read it wrong.
<lool> I also expressed that I would have liked more explicit dropping of the UNR apps recently
<lool> (Cause I want such choices to be documented, not because I disagree with them)
<ogra> lool, the thing is that ubuntu-mobile was never really documented or specced
<persia> OK.  That makes more sense :)  Actually, that's true for many of the choices we make: we tend to just grab what works, rather than actually mention more than arbitrary griping here.
<ogra> i will change that for jaunty, theer will definately be a spec and BOFs 
<ogra> but that wasnt the case up to the first build
<lool> ogra: That's right, it was simply vaguely targetted at netbooks with the same constraints as for other ubuntu flavours
<ogra> right
<lool> I think choice of UI some days before beta freeze qualifies as needing some announcement, even if the seed is such loosely specified
<lool> Anyway
<ogra> btw, did you try it ? 
<lool> No, I want to
<lool> Which is also why I'm pushing you to publish dailies :)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i wanted dailies on monday but the amount of cdimage changes somewhat pushed me back, sorry, thats definately my bad 
<lool> It's not that I wouldn't trust downloading it from people.u.c, but the way it's published makes me think of a prototype as well, which it's not meant to be
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> agreed
<lool> That's ok, I really want that you publish your work with intrepid
<ogra> it wont be or look much different if built from cdimage though, i use all the tools we use there and all changes i needed in the tools are committed
<lool> Perfect
<persia> ogra: But dailies means I'll install it twice a week, and that the kernel actually gets installed :)
<persia> (or maybe more often, depending)
<ogra> persia, i doubt the kernel will be magically fixed by building it on cdimage :)
<ogra> i'm sure its not that easy
<persia> ogra: No, but I made some changes earlier in the week that might fix that: I don't know if they do.
<persia> ogra: Anyway: when you have dailies, I'll be testing and fiddling bits.  Even better if you have dalies that work in KVM.
<ogra> well, i dont see why cdimage would fix that magically either 
<ogra> the syslinux version is the same in both environments
<ogra> anyway, i need to go on wit testing, lost way to much time for this discussion now ... 
<persia> cdimage doesn't fix it.  cdimage gives me fresh images to fiddle with whilst you sleep.
<ogra> ah
<ogra> persia, since you are the only one yet seeing the install failure on mobile, can you file a bug i can follow up to ? 
<persia> ogra: Anyway, I'm just testing the complete boot after a fixed install.  I have a feeling about how this needs to be, but not yet confirmed.
<ogra> we urgently need something with a description for the release meeting
<persia> Sure, although I'm going to try to fix it first.
<persia> Yeah, before the release meeting, you'll have a bug.  I have a couple to file against -mid as well.
<persia> I guess file against the meta packages?  I'm not sure where else the image bugs go, unless we understand which component needs tweaking.
<asac> lool: ok. i think i didnt get the topic right then ;)
<asac> (sorry had connectivity issues)
<StevenK> persia: Does the install work, though?
<persia> StevenK: I think so.  Just patching it up manually, and will reboot.  The kernel is missing.
<StevenK> persia: Is that due to the kernel not being in a repo on the image?
<StevenK> lool: And isolinux.cfg?! We don't use that
<ogra> persia, meta is fine for now 
<ogra> StevenK, he means syslinux.cfg
<StevenK> I know that :-)
<ogra> :)
<StevenK> Patches welcome :-P
<persia> ogra: With a manually installed kernel, -mobile works great.  I'll see if I can sort out why it's not being installed, and let you know.
<ogra> persia, but please file a bug ... release meeting is after team call and we will be blocked if loic cant present a bug number 
<persia> Although the set of available bluetooth services for -mobile looks very bad.
<persia> ogra: I will.
<ogra> merci :)
 * persia is doing a -mid install with manual hinting to track down the issues there too, and make sure that the list is complete for the meeting.
<persia> StevenK: Actually, if everything is built, could you generate a new -mid image?  I think what I have, and what I will have are sufficiently different to be interesting.
<StevenK> persia: Such as the new meta?
<persia> And having a terminal emulator :)
<persia> ogra: Do you use bluetooth for anything?
<ogra> no, i just notice the icon in the panel
<ogra> my phone is supposed o be capable ... i could try to use the Q1 as handsfree device
<persia> ogra: OK.  By default, it only works for audio.  Not for transfer to the phone or input.  I suspect you may need a couple extra packages.
<persia> (or maybe this is an issue for -desktop)
<StevenK> persia: Just checking, looks like everything has.
<persia> StevenK: Excellent.  I'd like to see how it looks, so we can make sure to feed lool any bugs he wants to raise.
<persia> OK.  Word back from the Xubuntu folk is that there is a good reason for thunar to recommend xfce4-panel, but it's safe to miss.  Does anyone happen to know if blacklisting a recommendation in the seeds works?
<StevenK> Nope.
<StevenK> Beg Colin.
<persia> Oh well.
<persia> OK.  Outstanding installation issues.  Please chime in if anyone has experienced anything not on this list (as I'm filing bugs):  no grub on -mid, no kernel on -mid, no kernel on -mobile, preseeding issues on -mid, preseeding issues on -mobile, no support for 480 vertical on -mid.
<ogra>  no support for 480 vertical on -mid ??
<persia> ogra: Nope.  There's ways around it, but it's a bug.  I don't expect to fix it for intrepid.
<ogra> ah, ubuquity
<ogra> i was thinking generally :)
<persia> Yep.  It's a wishlist bug at best.
<persia> The solution is to create glade files for a new front-end, but that defeated me (and I should have been concentrating on function rather than appearance at the beginning)
<lool> StevenK: Sorry, meant syslinux.cfg; syslinux and isolinux are the same upstream software suite
<StevenK> lool: I know. I'm teasing. :_)
<lool> StevenK: Damn Australian humor!
<StevenK> Muahaha
<lool> StevenK: You had too much Champagne at the party
<StevenK> I had no champagne
<lool> I wonder whether you can get Australian white wine with COÂ²?
 * lool had some tasty Australian wine a couple of times
<ogra> persia, oooh, see the ML 
<ogra> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2008-September/002094.html
<ogra> its a menu.list issue it seems
<ogra> he doesnt say he needed to install a kernel
<amitk> lool: why do you have make sparkling wine so scientific :-/
<lool> amitk: I was searching for the word sparkling; I had KohlensÃ¤ure in mind and couldn't think of the English word anymore :)
<ogra> heh
 * lool was thinking of Sekt, Sprudel, this kind of things
<amitk> lol
<lool> Arf, the menu.lst issue is almost the same as the MIC one
<davmor2> lool: just buy a soda stream ;)
<lool> Oh, vlc 0.9.2, cool
<lool> ogra: You have a bug for the install issue?
<ogra> lool, persia said he would put it up
<ogra> persia, ?
<persia> I don't have the number in front of me.  Read my mail to the list :)
 * persia is filing other bugs.
<persia> lool: Bug list: bug #182004 bug #274752 bug #274753 bug #274781 bug #274785 bug #274786 I have local branches for 274781 and 274785, and will make them available to the installer team after another test round.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 182004 in ubiquity "partitioner fails if partially preseeded due to seen flag madness" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/182004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274752 in mobile-meta "No kernel installed for ubuntu-mid flavour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274752
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274753 in mobile-meta "No kernel installed with ubuntu-mobile" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274753
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274781 in grub-installer "Please add support for the lpia architecture" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274781
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274785 in ubiquity "Ubiquity should select grub as the boot loader for lpia" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274785
<persia> lool: bug #274789 is specifically *NOT* targeted for intrepid.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274789 in ubiquity "ubiquity should have a smaller interface to work on 640x480 screens" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274789
<lool> persia: thanks
 * ogra is shocked by DHL
<ogra> my n800 just arrived
<ogra> and instead of ringing at the bell they just put it in front of the door on teh ground 
<lool> ...
<davmor2> ogra: At least you got it :D
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> :)
<ogra> i'm in love
<davmor2> Het it's good but it's not that good ;)
<ogra> yeh, the 810 is better 
<ogra> but i got it cheap 
<ogra> and i wanted recent arm HW
<davmor2> ogra: I got mine free :) the 810 is more up-to-date arm though isn't it?
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> but the n800 totally suffices my needs atm
<davmor2> ogra: if you want really up to date you may wish to consider a beagle board
<ogra> i'll definately subscribe to the maemo dev program for the next HW release
<ogra> i was to late for the 810
<davmor2> http://beagleboard.org/
<ogra> yeah, i know it
<ogra> i would love to develop a thin client variant in ltsp for it it should make the best thin client ever
<davmor2> I love the fact that the chip it runs has a separate MM core
<ogra> its quite limited in ram though
<ogra> you wont run a gnome desktop on it that way
<davmor2> ogra: you could always get a developer version of these http://store.neurostechnology.com/neuros-osd20-developer-p-55.html
 * ogra hugs persia thanks for getting all these guys a working install :)
<persia> Well, I wanted a working install, so I had to figure it out.
<ogra> hmm
 * ogra woders whats up with g-p-m 
<ogra> it doesnt show me that the battery is charging in the applet
<ogra> moun -t proc proc /proc should help with the proc errors btw
<persia> Yeah, but it doesn't matter.  Just ignoring them works.
<ogra> yeah
<persia> OK.  Release meeting.  Let's see how much pain we get for the bugs.
<ogra> persia, about bug 274786, mobile expects the user to be called ubuntu by default, i have no onscreen kbd in gdm yet
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274786 in mobile-meta "ubuntu-mobile install should be less agressively preseeded" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274786
<ogra> so its set to autologin with that username
<ogra> i agree about the locaion though
<persia> ogra: You can preseed the "log in automatically" value, and then gdm will autologin with the user's selected username.
<ogra> oh, i didnt know that 
<ogra> i'll try that as soon as i have the first cdimage build then
<persia> Yep.  That's what the checkbox is for.  Should actually make it easier for you.
<ogra> phew another 5 blog comments within the last 2h
<persia> What's the URL again?
<ogra> http://ograblog.wordpress.com/
<ogra> i didnt approve all of them yet, i want to have the time to comment on them if i do
<persia> Right.  I just like to read them :)
<ogra> :)
 * ogra needs to go shopping soon, i promise susie since three days that we do that ... will be afk for 1-3h
<persia> No, that blog entry is a placeholder until we get a volunteer to be a forums moderator.
<persia> OK.
<ogra> not yet though
<ogra> hmm, steve didnt notice that i moved, i guess i need to clear that up with him (i used to live about 50km away from him, now its more like 350)
<BenBradley> while true; me = me + 1; sleep 31556926; done
<lool> ogra, amitk: do we have a bug for madwifi or ath5k on Q1U not working for intrepid?
<persia> lool: For i386 or amd64 or both?
<persia> s/amd64/lpia/
<lool> lpia
<lool> i386 has madwifi in lrm
<lool> Who suggested we should blacklist poulsbo?
<persia> Me.
<persia> I have poulsbo hardware.  X only works if I uninstall xserver-xorg-video-psb
<persia> (yes, this is counterintuitive)
<lool> persia: May I ask you to file a bug to remind us to remove it from xorg.conf generation?
<lool> amitk: Is there a bug for lrm on Q1U?
<lool> err lrm/lpia to support Q1U
<persia> lool: Hrm?  Where does that belong?
<ogra> no
<persia> lool: I think it's fixable, just not quickly.  I'd rather keep the package as a placeholder for an SRU.
<persia> Or do you mean fiddling the .fdi files to not prefer it?
<lool> persia: Is any software explicitely pulling the package?
<lool> If it's not part of video-all, then we probably don't care
 * persia checks
<persia> It was on the image anyway
<lool> persia: The mid dailies?
<persia> Yeah.  It's part of -all
<persia> Maybe it shouldn't be part of -all, and when we fix it, it can get restored?
<lool> Ok; so we should drop it from there if it's broken, ok with you?
<lool> Yeah, that's what I have in mind as well
<ogra> lool, bug 274832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274832 in mobile-meta "no linux-restricted-modules for lpia flavour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274832
<persia> That's fine.  I was just tired last night and annoyed that my hardware required fussing.
 * persia files a bug
<lool> ogra: Thanks
<ogra> nominated for intrepid as well
<lool> persia: thanks!
<lool> ogra: perfect
 * lool appreciates the help with the bugs :)
<ogra> sorry for slacking, i wanted to file that weeks ago
<ogra> lool, do i need to put up a bug for ubuntu-mobile vs. cdimage.u.c ? 
<ogra> (woudl that help ?)
<lool> ogra: You can
<lool> ogra: You mean the DC-built images (cdimage) dailies based on mobile/i386 seed?
<lool> we could also have a bug for ath5k not working on Q1U
<persia> lool: bug #274833
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274833 in xorg "Please disclude xserver-xorg-video-psb from xserver-xorg-video-all" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274833
<ogra> yes, i mean for the inclusion of the ubuntu-mobile images in the build scripts
<persia> That does need a bug.
 * persia forgot it when filing earlier: apologies
<lool> persia: Thanks
<lool> ogra: I think it's nice to track it as a bug, but if you do it straight away you can skip it   :-P
<ogra> i wont be able to 
<lool> ogra: Perhaps best to have this on the release team's radar's bug list
<lool> I will mention it for sure though
<ogra> need to do some real life stuff soon ... i'll attack it tonight
<ogra> bug 274838
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274838 in mobile-meta "ubuntu-mobile images need to be built ob cdimage.ubuntu.com machines" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274838
<ogra> also nominated
<ogra> meh, typoed it
<persia> nominated?  I thought we were supposed to have them milestoned by the release manager for the flavour.
<ogra> well, i want it to be on the intrepid radar in any case
<persia> At UDS I distinctly remember slangasek saying he didn't use nominated bugs as a search criteron.
<lool> ogra: thanks
<ogra> persia, well, better than nothing
<persia> ogra: Indeed.
<ogra> i cant set milestones it seems for whatever reason
<persia> If they are on the agenda for the meeting, the rest hardly matters.
<persia> You aren't a driver.
<ogra> right
<ogra> well, i was able to for hardy
<ogra> but that changed apparently for intrepid
<ogra> it used to work for all of ubuntu-core-dev
<persia> Right.  It got restricted.
 * lool seems to be able to
<amitk> lool: no to both
 * persia just remembered there is no icon for the installer
<persia> lool: Are you still about?  There's a couple ways we could add an icon for the installer, but they're all a bit messy, and I'd like to run them by you.
<lool> persia: I'm all ears
<persia> Well, the basic issue is that ubiquity installs a .desktop file on the home directory Desktop.
<persia> Since -mid doesn't actually show the desktop, this isn't visible.
<persia> Also, we want to run in --automatic mode, so we don't want to use that .desktop file.
<persia> (which makes the preceeding not so bad).
<persia> So, here are some possible solutions:
<persia> 1) add a ubuntu-mid-installer-wedge binary package to ubuntu-mid-default-settings that contains the launcher we want, and gets deleted post-install.
<persia> 2) hack kourou to pull the ubiquity desktop file iff ubiquity is installed (we lose --automatic)
<persia> 3) install the installer launcher into the unionfs during the image boot (but not have it be in the squashfs)
<persia> There are probably others, but those are the first that come to mind.
<lool> I think we want a .desktop file which would show up like the others
<lool> This should be shipped by ubiquity, just like the Desktop thing
<lool> We don't need a new package for that, and I think it's ok if it shows up in the menus for everybody; we should just pick the proper place
<persia> Except we only want it for -mid.  Everyone else doesn't want to be in --automatic mode.
<lool> You might want to discuss the specifics with cjwatson
<lool> Ah, didn't see the automatic mode let me think a sec
<lool> is there another way to set automatic mode?  such as preseeding
<persia> We can have a special flavour of ubiquity that does it, but that seems like more overkill than ubuntu-mid-installer-wedge
<lool> that does what?
<persia> that includes our special .desktop entry.
<lool> I was proposing to have it in the main ubiquity, for everybody
<persia> Yeah.  They don't want that.
<lool> You checked with cjwatson already?
<persia> No need.  running in --automatic would significantly change the standard install behaviour.
<lool> My idea was to just have ubiquity in the .Desktop file and set automatic mode with preseeding
<lool> 19:39 < lool> is there another way to set automatic mode?  such as preseeding
<persia> I'll double check, but I'm fairly sure --automatic can't be preseeded. 
<lool> Could it be changed easily?
<lool> s/changed/implemented
<persia> which?
<lool> automatic mode's preseeding
<lool> I mean preseeding of automatic_mode=true|fakse
<lool> *false
<persia> No.  There might be a way to hack it with environment variables.
<lool> Doesn't help
<lool> persia: Ok; so we could create the .desktop file in casper below the home dir
<lool> Which would be somewhat 3)
<persia> and hack kourou to look there?
<lool> No, should be xdg
<lool> Like .local/share blah
<lool> But I don't have the specifics :)
<persia> Oh, right.  We might be able to do that.  You like 3) better than 1) then?
<persia> I think 1) is cleaner, but it does require NEW.
<lool> Yeah, package is overkill
<lool> There are plenty some such hacks in casper; I prefer not piling too many, but it's ok to add a small one like this
<lool> I think I'll ask cjwatson whether he has plans for preseeding automatic mode though
<persia> If you like, but given the architecture of ubiquity, I'm not sure how that would work.
<persia> Generally, the preseeding works against d-i, rather than against ubiquity, and ubiquity just uses it.  In --automatic mode, ubiquity doesn't show interfaces where it knows the answer, and in regular mode, it prepopulates the preseed answers.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-27
<persia> ogra: I think I found a hint as to why your image won't load in KVM: when booting it shows as both a DVD drive and a regular drive.  Is the image perhaps partitioned somehow?
<crevette> hello
<crevette> persia: hello
<ogra> persia, Err http://archieve.ubuntu.com intrepid/main linux-image-2.6.27-4-generic 2.6.27-4.5
<ogra>     404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.88.46.80]
<ogra> "
<ogra> i just got that from a user trying the workaround ... do you notice something ? 
<ogra> hmm, no, its all correct, he must have fiddled with the sources.list himself to get that typo in
<ogra> persia, my image isnt partitioned btw, i use the script build-mobile-img StevenK uses on cdimage
<ogra> so i dont see wha mine wouldnt boot but his does
<ogra> *why
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> might be that cdimage builds in a hardy envionemnt 
<lool> Ah too bad amitk isn't around
<lool> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.wireless.general/21379
 * ogra tries running syslinux for his image in a hardy chroot
<ogra> lool, did you try it ? 
<lool> Nope, but at least it feel like we could use madwifi + new hal in linux-lpia rather than building a lrm
<ogra> neh, would have been helpful if they had put a changelog in the tar.bz2
<persia> crevette: Hi.  superm1 and I tested your 0.28 preparation in a variety of environments.  It works great, unless we use the 2.6.27 kernel.
<persia> superm1 is working on packaging 1.5: if this tests cleanly, we may use that.
<persia> lool: Would you mind taking a look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/51200/ ?  It is supposed "hildonisation" for the bluez-gnome preferences applet.  Personally, I think it's probably an improvement generally rather than only in hildon, but I'd like your opinion as someone more familiar with GTK+.
<persia> ogra: If you're using the same script then I'm also confused.  Do you see any difference building under hardy?  Also, you probably want to grab the new version of the script, that fixes the no-kernel-is-being-installed issue.
<persia> ogra: Additionally, the reason people are seeing that 404 error is that their apt-cache is out of date.  They need to run apt-get update.
<StevenK> persia: Did you see the URL? http://archieve.ubuntu.com intrepid/main
<ogra> well, since they are downloading and install manually i just put a direct url in a blog comment now
<ogra> StevenK, must be a typo in the copy/paste though, the sources.list in the image and the preseed are both fine 
<persia> Ooh.  I didn't see that.  Maybe a preseeding issue?
<ogra> i checked that
<persia> Ah.  RIght.  Let's call that a reporter typo then.
<ogra> persia, and hardy doesnt help it seems
<persia> ogra: Hrm.  I dunno.  The images I get from StevenK work everywhere.  Your image gives strange results in KVM, and won't boot on the D4.  It works fine on the SR.
<ogra> yeah, i see the qemu issue here as well
<ogra> but using the hardy syslinux definately doesnt change a thing
<persia> ogra: Also, if you haven't seen already, I updated the -mobile preseeding bug with all the useful details, after some discussion in ubuntu-installer.  You probably need to fiddle ubuntu-mobile-default-settings though.
<ogra> yeah, gdm-cdd.conf currentl relies on ubuntu as username and no password
<persia> ogra: What else do you have customised?  d-i passwd/auto-login will sedify gdm.conf to do the right thing.
<ogra> right
<ogra> gdm-cdd.conf uses the theme i use in the desktop and the face browser 
<persia> Ah.  I wonder if user-setup apply can handle gdm-cdd.conf.
<persia> Anyway, you can't effectively force the username except in --automatic mode, which you don't really want, as there's no reason -mobile should br crippled like that.
<ogra> i dont really like to force any kind of typing in gdm though
<ogra> unless i have any kind of onscreen kbd
<persia> Right.  That's why I'm suggesting d-i passwd/auto-login : it will automatically log in *whichever* username the user selects in the installer.
<ogra> but you wont get back in if you log out
<ogra> it doesnt set timed login and doesnt set userlist
<ogra> both is needed
<persia> Hmm...
<ogra> autologin only works on first login, for the second timed login is required as well
<persia> What's the use case for logging out?
<ogra> touchscreen recalibration
<ogra> heh, fun there is denemo for maemo :)
<persia> Maybe that doesn't have quite so many bugs.
<ogra> it seems to use timidity 
<persia> ogra: Also, with the announcement of GNOME Mobile, what do you think about aligning Ubuntu Mobile with that base?
<ogra> i guess its an older version
<ogra> ?? 
<ogra> mid is aliged with that 
<persia> Hrm?
<persia> -mid is hildon.
<ogra> i dont want hildon in -mobile
<persia> Neither do I.
<StevenK> Gnome Mobile isn't Hildon
<ogra> gnome-mobile *is* hildon
<persia> No.
<persia> Maemo is hildon.  GNOME Mobile is different.
<ogra> well, matchbox and friends at least
<persia> The block diagram I see is BlueZ, e-d-s, Telepathy, Avahi, GStreamer, Matchbox, GCon, SQLite, GCVF, GIO, Pango, Cairo, ATK, GTK*, GLib, and DBus.
<persia> I *don't* see hildon-desktop, or any of that sort of thing.
<ogra> well, apart from matchbox and telepathy ubuntu-mobile has exactly all components 
<persia> From that set, Ubuntu Mobile uses almost all of it: the only pieces absent are that Telepathy wasn't selected for intrepid, and you're hinting compiz/metacity, rather than using matchbox.
<persia> Am I missing something important?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> well, gvfs instead of gnome-vfs (which is dead)
<persia> Yeah.  Where I wrote "GCVF" I meant to write "GVFS"
<ogra> i was commenting the diagram :)
<persia> Oh :)
<persia> So I was thinking it might be handy to claim "Ubuntu Mobile is based on GNOME Mobile".
<persia> But that requires consensus that it actually is :)
 * ogra wonders when he manages to have hiw 2G SD card filled with crap in the n800 ... i'm installing apps since yesterday :P
<persia> 2G is insufficient space.
<ogra> well, i'D like to go on claiming that it is based on gnome desktop but it incorporates gnome mobile technology
<ogra> it uses nearly the complete set of gnome desktop apps
<persia> OK.  That makes sense.  GNOME Mobile claims it is the basis of Ubuntu Mobile, and I like to reciprocate, but I can see the value in claiming GNOME Desktop as well.
<persia> For -mid, I think Maemo is the sensible upstream, so perhaps it's GNOME Mobile -> Maemo -> Ubuntu MID.
<ogra> thats the important part to me ... i want the apps to work on 600 vertical pixels (minus 48px panel)
<persia> Right, and that is a long-standing GNOME Desktop requirement: holding them to it makes sense.
<ogra> xactly
<lool> persia: Hmm the patch changed slightly since last time I saw it; I'm pretty sure it's not hildon dependent, but UI reorg
<lool> I know the OEM people had trouble packing everything on screen in bluetooth dialogs
<persia> lool: It's entirely UI reorg.  If the GTK+ looks clean to you, I'm thinking of pressing for it to be the default, rather than "hildon".
<persia> Yeah, 1.5 has a *much* cleaner interface, and is compatible with our kernels.  Needs a heap of testing to be included though.
<lool> perhaps this patch can now be made upstream then
<lool> It was longer in the past, had more dialogs and all
 * lool needs to go afk
<persia> That's what I'm thinking, but since it's the first time I've every written in GTK, I want someone else's opinion :)
<lool> I remember reviewing the changes in depth, but it's hard to comment on them as a patch as it depends on the affected widgets/code
<lool> ogra-maemo: Like your N800? :)
<ogra> yeah, love it
<persia> lool: OK.  Is this something you can do later, or shall I hunt another GTK master?
<ogra-maemo> the font is quite small in xchat
<lool> persia: I think you're trying our the bluez packages regularly?  would be nice to apply the patch and see if it still improves the UI and send it upstream
<lool> How stupid, my screen speakers are now shut off when the screen goes in power suspend mode
<persia> lool: OK.  I'll find another GTK Master.  Thanks as always.
 * lool goes back to cleaning
<ogra> ogra-maemo, meep
<ogra> hmm, no sounds
<ogra> ogra-maemo, meep
<ogra> ogra-maemo, again
<ogra> ogra-maemo, pfft
<persia> ogra-maemo: Does it help if someone else does it, or is it just broken?
<ogra> ah, no libnotify
<ogra> i guess i have to configure a wav file for sounds and the ballon thngie only wiorks with libnotify installed
 * ogra-maemo goes looking for the pkg
<persia> Hmm.  In today's MID image, midbrowser doesn't launch.
<lool> Hmm NM seems to think the ath5k wifi on the Q1U is a wired network interface
<ogra-maemo> did you try dis/enable wireless from the context menu ?
<lool> ogra-maemo: There's no such thing, because it doesn't recognize it as a network interface
<lool> ogra-maemo: What was last time you checked ath5k on Q1U?  2.6.26?
<lool> It might work if we fix hal
<lool> I could tell if I'd plug a kbd
<ogra> i tried with .27
<ogra> it recognized it corrently but all connect attempts failed
<ogra> *correctly
<ogra> i think the last time was with .27-2
 * ogra needs to go to mow the lawn ... semms its the last sunny day for quite some time ... back later
<persia> lool: Do you think bug #275158 needs to be on the release list?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 275158 in xfree86-driver-synaptics "Please enable a build for lpia" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/275158
<rhp> Hi all. A question on the necessary hardware to run the mid image on. I am currently running ubuntu 7.10 on a Fuyitsu Siemens Stylus 3400 (Pentium III). Since it is a tablet-pc, I am wondering whether I could run the mid version of ubuntu on it as well.
<rhp> Btw. it has only 4MB graphics memory, no 3D accel.
<persia> rhp: How much RAM?
<rhp> 192MB
<persia> It'd be tight.  You could try.  I think you'd do best to use the mccaslin image, and make sure that the -lpiacompat kernel is installed.
<persia> Mind you, ubuntu-mid is really designed for > 200DPI, so things will look a bit chunky.
<lool> ogra-maemo: It fails to connect here as well; ISTR the driver only supports WEP at this time though
<lool> And I'm using WPA
<lool> I should check with some other AP and open access
<ogra> cant be, i'm using WEP all over my house 
<lool> persia: It shouldn't be a release blocker
<lool> ogra: Do you get any packets in monitor mode?
<persia> lool: Oh well.  It's trivial to fix, but I'm not sure if tjaalton or bryce will want to fix it if it's not a release blocker.
<ogra> well, would be good to have synaptics (touchpads wont work without it, hal-input defaults to it for all touchpads) actually and its a trivial change 
<ogra> lool, i didnt try
<ogra> i will if i'm back ... really out now ...
<persia> And my D4 (form factor device) has a synaptics touchpad.
<lool> persia: I could fix it as well I guess?
<persia> lool: If you have the git-fu, indeed.
<lool> I do
<persia> lool: Well then, thanks :) 
<lool> ogra: I don't see any packets
<rhp> persia: what does McCaslin indicate? Is that a code name for versions of ubuntu-mid?
<rhp> How reliable are the intrepid test versions? Reliable enough, or should I really stick with the released hardy version?
<persia> rhp: For the Ubuntu MID hardy release, there were four things released.  One was called "mccaslin" and was optimised for the Samsung Q1U.  It most likely to be compatible with most hardware.  The others were "menlow", optimised for some development boards, a KVM image, and a Moblin-Image-Creator project tarball.
<persia> rhp: If you want to play with the development snapshots, you can grab a daily from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
<rhp> I read on the web-site there is also a 'regular' i386 version.
<rhp> But I don't see images for that.
<persia> That should work, and if it doesn't, try installing the -lpiacompat kernel in a chroot, and try that.
<rhp> Ok, I'll try. 
<persia> There's no images available for the i386 version of ubuntu-mid, and there's *heaps* of bugs because some changes were made architecture-specific that weren't.
<persia> There's a preview image of ubuntu-mobile available for i386, but I'm not sure how well it works with 192MB RAM.
<rhp> ok then, the mccaslin image it is. Thanks.
<rhp> What are the development snapshots targetted at?
<persia> You mean, what sort of devices?
<rhp> Yes
<rhp> There seems to be only one version, so no destinction between mccaslin and menlow.
<persia> Well, I know it's been tested in KVM, on the Aigo MID, on the Samsung Q1U, on the Kohjinsha SR, and on the Sharp D4.
<lool> persia: fixed
<lool> persia: You might need Pas support though
<persia> lool: Excellent.  Yeah, I'll send that as soon as I notice the upload is accepted.
<lool> No it's fine
<lool> %xfree86-driver-synaptics: !s390>------->------->------->-------      # Needs xserver-xfree86
<lool> persia: I built the source from a debian box, so didn't close the lp bug in the changes, but I closed the bug by hand
<persia> Oh good.  StevenK said it was in P-a-s, but didn't say it didn't need support.  I'll just expect the D4 sidebar to work for tomorrow's image then.
<persia> lool: No problem.  I don't really care about changelog-closes-bug for this last-minute architecture-enablement stuff.
<persia> rhp: There shouldn't be anything device-specific in the development snapshot images (if there is, it's a bug).  Whether all the features are working properly or not is a different issue.
<rhp> persia: ok, clear enough. I'll give it a spin and find out for myself.
<persia> rhp: Please let us know how it works.
<rhp> Sure
<crevette> hello persia
<persia> hey crevette.  Have you tried superm1's test packages?
<crevette> yep
<crevette> not entirely
<crevette> but there is no bluez-utils 4.x ?
<persia> Just install bluetooth, bluez, and bluez-gnome: it should take care of everything else.
<crevette> weird that bluez 4.7 is not installed
<persia> crevette: You've added the bluetooth PPA to your sources.list ?
<crevette> yep
<crevette> okay, installing bluetooth solvd the problem
<persia> OK.  Good :)
<crevette> nice if we can have bluez 4 for intrepid
<crevette> I have an error install bluez
<crevette> Des erreurs ont Ã©tÃ© rencontrÃ©es pendant l'exÃ©cutionÂ :
<crevette>  /var/cache/apt/archives/bluez_4.7-0ubuntu1~ppa2_i386.deb
<crevette> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<crevette> sorry for the french
<persia> I thought superm1 fixed that.
<persia> purge bluez-input, bluez-audio, bluez-serial, and bluez-network
<crevette> I had a shitful of errors also about makedev
<persia> Yeah.  Ignore those.  They need to be sorted, but they don't break anything.
<persia> Also.
<persia> !ohmy
<ubottu> Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.
<crevette> ah
<crevette> :)
<crevette> sorry
<crevette> bluetooth-wizard is nice
<persia> Yeah.  It actually works too :)
<crevette> bluetooth-sendto doesn't work for me
<crevette> it keeps stalled with an error of obex-data-server
<persia> Oh, right.  superm1 was going to look at that today: I think he said it might need obexd.
<crevette> obex-data-server doesn't work no more with bluez 4 ?
<persia> Dunno.  You might ask superm1 for more explanation in #ubuntu-motu
<persia> I did a little keyboard testing, and am hacking the UI patch for the preferences dialog to not look so bad at 600 vertical pixels.
<crevette> persia: I didn't get the comment https://mail.google.com/mail/#inbox/11ca06991d3a9b81
<crevette> oups
<crevette> not this one
<persia> Yeah.  I can't read that :)
<crevette> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-utils/+bug/274950/comments/9
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274950 in obex-data-server "Look into switching to bluez 4.x" [Undecided,In progress] 
<crevette> he wants to build the package with the patch ?
<persia> Yep, and push to the PPA for people to test.
<persia> More specifically, he's asking if you have time to build a package with the patch for testing.
<crevette> okay
<crevette> I'll try
<persia> crevette: Good luck.
<persia> If you run into issues, just ask for superm1 on #ubuntu-motu, and he'll probably be able to help.  I'm likely to be away soon, and for a while :)
<crevette> okayish
<rhp> ok. this is probably to stupid to ask, but I could not find an anwser on the wiki. Here goes: how should I put the image on a usb stick to make it boot ubuntu-mid? cat xxx.img > /dev/sdb? 
<rhp> Is it true that booting the usb.img will overwrite my disk on the target system?
<rhp> If so, I surely missed that big fat red warning sign that indicated as much...
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-09-28
<ian_brasil> rhp: something like dd bs-1024 if=<image file> of=/dev/sdb
<ian_brasil> where /dev/sdb is whatever your usb mounts as
<ian_brasil> rhp: dd bs=1024 if=<image file> of=/dev/sdb
<lool> rhp: These were the older MIC images; the new images are live images, and shouldn't overwrite your disk
<rhp> lool: cool
<rhp> so now they run from the usb stick?
<ogra-maemo> like a livecd (they are built using the same tools now)
<persia> rhp: Indeed.
<rhp> ian_brasil:  as far as I can tell, there is no difference between dd and cat <image> > /dev/sdb, but for some reason that does not result in a bootable usb scick.
<rhp> nice.
<ogra-maemo> dd does a binary copy by blocks, cat cats a stream from a to b
<persia> rhp: It's copying bytes vs. blocks.
 * persia stops typing, being inevitably too late and therefore redundant
<rhp> ogra-maemo: what is the difference between those?
<rhp> I've put images on disks before with cat, without problems..
<ogra-maemo> using cat the bootsector wont work, it needs to have a certain blocksize
<persia> Well, rather, it might work, but only if you get really lucky.
<persia> Hrm.   I appear to have melted my USB stick :(
<ogra-maemo> i managed to wear one out recently... the one i used for install tests on the cmpc since the beginning :)
<ogra-maemo> but it survived 1.5y of nearly daily install tests
<persia> I don't think I wore it out.  I just let someone else touch it.  My mini-A to full-B cable needed replacement, and I foolishly used my test stick to make sure the replacement cable worked at the shop.
 * ogra-maemo cant belive nobody ported any dvb tools to maemo yet
<ogra-maemo> (thats my usecase for such an adapter)
<rhp> aside from dd-ing it directly to /dev/sdb, would it also be possible to create two partitions on the stick, one for the img file and the other for data files?
<persia> rhp: Yes, but there's no guarantee the result would boot.  What I do is to add the couple files I need via loopmount, and they appear on the live system under /cdrom.
<ogra-maemo> not with the current setup... caspper (the tool used for booting the image) has a persistent mode though, you cold use a second usb key for that
<ogra-maemo> *casper
<ogra-maemo> or a partition on the local hdd... look at wiki.ubuntu.com for persistent livecd
<rhp> ok, clear enough. putting it on /dev/sdb1 was the first mistake then...
<ogra-maemo>  yeah
<rhp> Maybe some info on the dd-incantation would be usefull for the wiki/howto...
<rhp> If things work nicely, I can just copy the image to the harddrive?
<rhp> Or is there an installer for that purpose?
<ogra-maemo> http://ograblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/announcing-the-first-ubuntu-mobile-image/
<ogra-maemo> we uszally give the necessary commandline in the announcements
<ogra-maemo> and i'm working on a gui tool,but its not ready yet https://launchpad.net/usb-imagewriter
<ogra-maemo> welll, its functional, but the code isnt production ready
<rhp> ok, I was looking through http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded and couldn't find anything about it.
<rhp> You're blob is a more authorative source of information?
<rhp> blob -> blog...
<ogra-maemo> no,its my blog :)
<rhp> Those screenshots look great, by the way...
<ogra-maemo> we should put something into the howto or faq section about dd i guess
<ogra-maemo> (on the wiki)
<ogra-maemo> i guess at some point we need a mobile team wiki for such announcements
<ogra-maemo> the image announced there isnt yet built in the datacenter, once that happens i'll do an authoritative annou cement
<ogra-maemo> (some time nexr week)
 * ogra-maemo notices how different his typos are on an onscreen kbd :)
<rhp> Turns out that old stylus 3400 does not support booting of the usb-stick directly. There is grub on the hd, though. I guess it would be easy to boot the usb-stick from grub?
<persia> rhp: You'll need grub > 0.97, but it ought work.
<persia> Also, you need the right hints available.  Seems Fujitsu may be annoying this way: if it doesn't work, you might need to do something like http://64.124.13.3/hacks/USB_Boot_using_GRUB.html#mozTocId210830
<persia> Alternately, you might want a CD image.
<persia> (but i don't know how to convert a USB image to a CD image)
<rhp> Why would I want a CD image? There is no CD player in the device...
<persia> Oh.  Then you don't.
<persia> (unless you have an attachable bootable CD drive, but you may not)
<rhp> On another system I also boot from the installed hd to run the root-fs on a usb-disk.
<rhp> So I'm pretty sure I can so something similar here.
<persia> You ought be able to do the same thing.
<rhp> The initrd.img probably contains usb modules already?
<persia> It ought, or at least USB stuff works for me.
<rhp> ok, it is booting the kernel now, but after mentioning the squashfs info, it seems to stall...
<rhp> ... or I just need to learn to have a little patience... I booted just fine!
<rhp> At first glance, it looks great.
<rhp> Unfortunately, the X input driver for my device is not included, so that'll be the first thing to fix. Trying that in a few hours.
<persia> rhp: Which driver?
<persia> ogra: You're just matching on "IDEACO", right?  Not the model or anything?
<ogra> i'm matching the model because i apply defaults 
<ogra> ideaco in a different device needs a new fdi
<persia> Hrm.  OK.
<persia> I guess I'll run the calibration tool as soon as I can boot the Mobile image then.
<ogra> i'm trying to generalize but i somewhat want it usable on a basic level without any calibration already 
<ogra> its a tricky situation
<persia> Oh, I understand.  It's probably best to identify as many models as possible, and then try to set sensible defaults for all of them, with calibration for unsupported devices.
<persia> At least now I actually have an evtouch device, which means I can produce something useful for you.
<ogra> yay
<ogra> well, i think the best thing for sensible defaults would be to ship a database and apply them in /etc/evtouch/config from the postinst
<persia> That would make sense.
<ogra> but that might be complicated 
<ogra> yu need to find out the hal device data etc
<persia> Hrm.  Maybe the postinst isn't best then: imagine how to make it work in a live environment.
<rhp> persia: I believe it is called the fpit driver.
<rhp> I was included by default in the xubuntu 7.10 release (as far as I can recall), so it should not be difficult to get it included in ubuntu-mid too.
<persia> Is that the radio pen?
<rhp> radio pen?
<persia> No, not likely difficult at all, it's just knowing which package supplied it, and making sure it works in -mid.
<rhp> I do not know what that means, but it is a passive pen. I can operate it with my fingers too.
<rhp> The package was actually called <something>-fpit, so that's a good clue :)
<persia> My Stylistic 1000 had a radio-based pen, but that was ages ago, so I've no idea if newer tablets use the same tech.
<rhp> ah, ok
<persia> Try apt-get install xserver-xorg-input-fpit and see if that works.
<persia> (It may not, but I'm currently having issues checking things)
<rhp> persia: can I apt-get install on the usb image as it is running?
<lool> ogra: Did you commit po/de/LC_MESSAGES/usb-imagewriter.mo in usb-imagewriter on purpose?!?
<ogra-maemo> indeed
<ogra-maemo> anything wrong about that ?
<lool> ogra: Isn't it a generated file?
<ogra-maemo> there are scripts in the tree
<lool> Anyway, not my business
<ogra-maemo> i needed  a .po for rosetta
<lool> Yeah, but why commit the .mo?
<lool> Anyway, you do as you please
<ogra-maemo> oh,the .mo... i was only testing the translatability to make sure i didnt miss strings
<rhp> ok, I'm up to the point where everything boots fine. However I have no wifi-access (it puts my wifi nic in the wired list...), and the touch screen doesnot work (but I cannot apt-get, since I have no network...)
<rhp> Any ideas how to get wifi working?
<biz_den6140> Hi, there! The HELP on Ubuntu MID is needed, looking for a team members or proes able to assist, thanks
<biz_den6140> ANYONE ALIVE HERE!!!!!!!!!!??????????
<rhp> biz_den6140; no, but I am pretty sure that is not the best way to get help.
<rhp> Maybe it would help to state your problem...
<biz_den6140> Oh. I'm really sorry
<biz_den6140> OK
<biz_den6140> Here it goes
<biz_den6140> Does MID have locals in other languages?
<rhp> biz_den6140: i'm still working on getting it running, then I'll bother running it in dutch :)
<biz_den6140> I meant does it has the same way of localization as Main Ubuntu has: like downloading it while installing or something?
<rhp> biz_den6140: I think the pro's have gone to bed, it seems pretty quiet now...
<biz_den6140> rhp: oops, ok time for me to go too, thanks anyway, I'll try to get help later on
<rhp> okido
<crevette> hello
<biz_den6140> ï»¿crevette, Hi, there!
<[doctor]> hello, can anybody list locales in ubuntu mid?
<rhp> ogra-maemo: I tried following your script to update an image, but it seems that my system does not recognize squashfs as a filesystemtype. I tried unsquash instead, but that complains about a too low version.
<rhp> What are the minimal system-requirements for running the script? It seems 7.10 is too outdated.
<ogra-maemo> it was developed on 8.10
<rhp> ah, that's... recent.
<rhp> unfortunately I broke my laptop today trying to see whether the mccaslin image would have working wifi... didn't remember it would overwrite my harddrive.
<rhp> So maybe I should just install 8.10 on that.
<rhp> ok, see you all tomorrow.
<ian_brasil> anyone know if there is a driver available for the Q1 web cam?
<ogra-maemo> ian_brasil, uvcvideo would be the right one, but still cant handle it
<ian_brasil> ogra-maemo: yes, i saw that it is not uvc standard..incidentally I am not sure you saw this last week but i was playing around learning  pygtk and wrote some really simple frontend to your evtouch calibration tool http://paste.ubuntu.com/50238/ ...maybe it is a start (if you did not already write some UI that is)
<ogra-maemo> cool !
<ogra-maemo> i threw together a glade file for the extended options today, but the calibration is still the old script with some zenity/xdialog crap for user intteraction
<ogra-maemo> lets merge that in jaunty, intrepid is sadly in beta and ui freeze, i'll only be able to get .fdi files in to avoid hw regressions
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-21
<lool> njpatel: Hey just a heads up on #433859
<lool> njpatel: err sorry I meant #433386
<lool> the d-s one is not very imporatnt
<njpatel> lool: on call -- that's going to need a plugin (adding to sidebar)
<lool> njpatel: Ok sounds like we need to make sure that's high enough on the list of prios then
<njpatel> lool: I can make the plugin part of the launcher source code, though, not need for separate package
<lool> njpatel: Ok it seems to be quite important for karmic so if it needs some special development we should look into that soon
<lool> beta being in two days
<lool> I mean beta freeze
<njpatel> right, I've milestoned it in the upstream launcher for beta freeze
<njpatel> lool: do we know where the button should go? i.e. below files and folders but above categories, or under favorites?
<lool> njpatel: Well Ivanka suggested the possibility of having it in the main categories
<lool> njpatel: forwarded the email to you
<lool> njpatel: I think we should clarify ASAP, either saying that it's too late to develop this or asking for details on the implementaiton
<lool> njpatel: I added it to the mobile agenda for the integration call, but dont think we have ivanka there
<lool> plars, njpatel: Guys, I just did a bunch of changes to the UNR seed over the weekend to have to have it closed to the desktop one; I think you should pay particular attention to the new set of apps next time you look at UNR
<njpatel> lool: I can't get it in between the categories that we make for menus. It'll have to be either at the top, between favorites and the first menu category, or right at the bottom
<plars> lool: will do, thanks for the heads up
<plars> GrueMaster: ^ also
<njpatel> lool: right, I don't think we do...and this is really late wrt schedule, but let's see what we can do
<lool> njpatel: I think that's what Ivanka wanted (presumably bottom)
<lool> njpatel: since add/remove used to be at the bottom of the Applications menu in GNOME
<njpatel> lool: that could be done pretty easily, could you please get confirmation for that (as I'm working on OEM stuff atm), and add it to the bug report?
<lool> njpatel: Ok
<njpatel> lool: thanks!
<ian_brasil> is a meeting planned for tomorrow?
<lool> ian_brasil: Yes
<ian_brasil> lool, ok 
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-22
<lool> njpatel: Hey
<lool> njpatel: I noticed a serious issue this morning
<lool> njpatel: netbook-launcher doesn't ship any gconf schemas
<lool> njpatel: so a) are you aware of places where you do stuff like gconf_unset -- these would be broken and we could look at revisiting associated bugs
<lool> njpatel: b) is is possible to use libnetbook-launcher without netbook-launcher installed?
<tsoncul> lool: just out of curiosity, would a) cause gnome-panel to stick around after switching from Classic to Netbook mode?
<lool> tsoncul: That's one of the bugs I'm looking at
<lool> tsoncul: Perhaps not since the gnome-panel schema is properly installed
<tsoncul> lool: OK, just wanted to tell that it's happening
<tsoncul> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/desktop-switcher/+bug/434447
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 434447 in desktop-switcher "Desktop switcher won't disable gnome-panel when changing from classic to netbook mode" [Undecided,New]
<lool> tsoncul: AFAIK everything panel and gconf related should work fine
<tsoncul> lool: Well, right now I can't go back to netbook-launcher mode. The panel isn't disabled, so the topmost part of the screen can't be seen
<lool> tsoncul: Do you know paste.ubuntu.com?  Could you paste the output of gconftool-2 -R /apps/panel to it?
<lool> There's a command which can help with it
<tsoncul> sure
<tsoncul> hold on
<davmor2> lool: I'm having a mobile day today so KNE and UNR anything specific you'd like me to look at?
<lool> tsoncul: http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-paste
<lool> davmor2: yes, we added a bunch of new apps to UNR
<davmor2> lool: no worries
<lool> davmor2: http://paste.ubuntu.com/275733/
<lool> davmor2: That would be the latest changes in the contents; would be nice to focus on whether these cause regressions and whether these work decently
<lool> davmor2: I also added usb-creator
<njpatel> lool: probably not, as it depends on some images that are part of the netbook-launcher package
<lool> njpatel: So it's ok if I ship the gconf schema in netbook-launcher then; thanks
<njpatel> yep
<lool> njpatel: So it seems desktop-switcher will cause us trouble again
<njpatel> lool: how come?
<lool> njpatel: It has a copy of the default settings which we changed in unr-default-settings' packaging
<lool> And desktop-switcher's values are out of date
<tsoncul> lool: I have paste.ubuntu.com/275735
<lool> Plus we're getting reports that it doesn't work properly
<njpatel> lool: of course...we need to change that into a separate session :(
<lool> tsoncul: Can you put a screenshot somewhere?  You have two panels or what's the issue exactly?
<lool> njpatel: I dont think this will happen for karmic though
<njpatel> right
<tsoncul> lool: I'm taking a screenshot now
<lool> njpatel: Not if I'm the one doing it at least -- I welcome the change but cant put the hours to implement it in time before beta or release
<lool> njpatel: I think we're better off living with d-s this cycle and fixing the top issues and having a spec about dropping it next cycle
<lool> And using separate sessions
<njpatel> lool: that makes sense
<lool> njpatel: I think for instance maximus continues to be running -- but not doing anything -- in classic mode
<lool> njpatel: How shall we fix d-s this cycle?  do you folks have time to resync the d-s data files with the current Ubuntu Desktop Edition defaults and ubuntu-netbook-remix-default-settings defaults?
<njpatel> lool: yes, is there a bug for that
<njpatel> ?
<lool> There are a couple of symptom bugs
<lool> But not one describing that
<lool> I can file one now
<tsoncul> lool: the screenshot you asked for is at LP:#434447
<lool> njpatel: TBH I feel it's more of a packager's job but some configs are in the d-s code or in data files in the tarball; also I'm a bit out of time on UNR this cycle
<njpatel> lool: can you milestone those bugs for beta freeze, so I remember them (i've added this to my todo anyway)
<lool> njpatel: Yes
<njpatel> thanks
<lool> 434530
<lool> tsoncul: Can you open a terminal and run some commands for me?
<tsoncul> sure
<lool> tsoncul: Do you mind wiping your panel config?
<tsoncul> not at all
<lool> gconftool-2 --recursive-unset /apps/panel
<lool> gconftool-2 --load /usr/share/desktop-switcher/netbook-panel-config.xml
<lool> Not sure about that last path
<lool> Yeah it's correct
<tsoncul> yeah
<tsoncul> I could tab-complete it
<lool> tsoncul: killall gnome-panel
<lool> tsoncul: Does that help?
<tsoncul> lool: no, gnome-panel respawned
<lool> tsoncul: Still with the classic settings?
<tsoncul> it's supposed to be netbook now
<lool> yes
<tsoncul> it's not exactly classic settings
<lool> screenshot?
<tsoncul> the panel is there, but the date, shutdown button, etc are not there
<lool> Ok
<lool> tsoncul: That is known
<tsoncul> and the netbook interface is running where the desktop would be
<tsoncul> as per the screenshot.
<lool> tsoncul: Oh sorry you want to switch to classic desktop
<lool> or to netbook mode?
<tsoncul> netbook
<tsoncul> I can do classic
<lool> So the netbook interface being running is fine
<tsoncul> I do have to restart, though
<tsoncul> hold on
<lool> The lack of buttons might be fixable too
<lool> run gconftool-2 --recursive-unset /apps/panel again
<lool> and killall gnome-panel again
<tsoncul> hold on, I don't think we're on the same page
<lool> tsoncul: What's your goal?
<tsoncul> lool: to go from the classic mode (which works perfectly) to the netbook mode
<tsoncul> lool: when I do that, (desktop-switcher applet) the cluster-interface appears
<tsoncul> however, the panels don't go away.
<lool> tsoncul: Did you install this system from an UNR image?
<tsoncul> yes
<tsoncul> karmic-lpha6
<lool> karmic or jaunty?
<lool> ok
<lool> tsoncul: So gconftool-2 --recursive-unset /apps/panel
<lool> killall gnome-panel
<lool> if that doesn't help I have an idea for something a bit more stable
<tsoncul> that partially helps, the functionality is there, but the theme isn't correct
<tsoncul> the dark grey theme (I don't know the new name) isn't here
<lool> tsoncul: Ok that's easy
<tsoncul> just change the theme?
<lool> /desktop/gnome/interface/gtk_theme Dust
<lool> tsoncul: gconftool-2 -s -t string /desktop/gnome/interface/gtk_theme Dust
<tsoncul> again OK, but now the new monochrome taskbar icons have gone away
<tsoncul> btw, feel free to stop helping me any time, I don't mind any of these errors
<lool> tsoncul: gconftool-2 -s -t string /desktop/gnome/interface/icon_theme Humanity
<tsoncul> just want to let you guys know what's broken, though
<lool> tsoncul: I'd love if you could include this conversation on the bug report
<tsoncul> sure
<lool> tsoncul: Well I think the issue is that the .xml file doesn't exactly overwrite the default gnome-panel settings
<lool> I dont think it can really work the way we're doing it
<tsoncul> OK
<tsoncul> is LP:#434530 a broader-scope version of this?
<tsoncul> I can mark LP:#434447 as a duplicate of that if it's going to help you put things together
<lool> tsoncul: Well we dont know for sure
<lool> tsoncul: Until LP:#434530 is fixed, you'll see strange things when switching desktops
<lool> But in general I dont think the approach is robust
<lool> Sadly we cant really fix this for karmic
<lool> Instead I think we want desktop-switcher to flip the name of the session you want to run and require a logout or reboot
<tsoncul> That'll probably help keep the settings that are changed to stay changed between flips
<tsoncul> If I understood you correctly
<lool> Yes; currently we have a special logic for that but I dont see how it can work sanely
<tsoncul> Well..
<tsoncul> I'm not going to bore you too much, but I really didn't understand the logic behind the code (that I pulled from launchpad)
<tsoncul> I seemed to me that to go TO classic mode, we ENABLE netbook-launcher
<tsoncul> I'm not proficient with GNOME, so I really couldn't understand the code itself though
<lool> tsoncul: Which logic are you looking at?
<tsoncul> lool: let me dig it out
<lool> enable_netbook() and enable_classic() do the things you expect in src/main.c in desktop-switcher's source
<lool>     else if (strcmp (switch_to, "classic") == 0)
<lool>       if (!in_classic)
<lool>         current_mode = NETBOOK_MODE;
<lool>         selected_mode = CLASSIC_MODE;
<lool>         enable_classic ();
<lool> that looks good
<tsoncul> That looks good, yes.
<tsoncul> in enable_notebook (void)
<tsoncul> line 341-342:
<tsoncul>   delete_launcher_autostart_file (LAUNCHER_DESKTOP);
<tsoncul>   delete_launcher_autostart_file (OLD_LAUNCHER_DESKTOP);
<tsoncul> worried me
<tsoncul> or am I completely off the ball?
<lool> tsoncul: That removes a file in .config/autostart/netbook-launcher.desktop
<lool> tsoncul: By default, launcher will autostart
<lool> Unless you have such a file which says not to
<lool> So removing it when switching to netbook mode will cause it to staqrt
<tsoncul> aha
<tsoncul> makes much more sense now.
<tsoncul> yeah, thans.
<tsoncul> Sorry I can't be of much help with this
<lool> It's already excellent that you're on IRC and we can debug this live
<tsoncul> My understanding of GNOME and its friends goes only so far
<tsoncul> heh
<tsoncul> I got bit by the "I gotta help 9.10 be good enough not to crash my computer this time" bug
<lool> that bad!
<tsoncul> It took me a while to get my eeePC700 in shape when I put 9.04 on it 4 months ago
<tsoncul> I must say though, Karmic really looks in shape (at least for me)
<lool> I have a 701SD and it's not really fit for running UNR
<lool> the screen is too small/the UI is too large
<tsoncul> Is it a 7''?
<tsoncul> Yeah, the 8.9' screen is barely enough
<eggonlea> hi guys, I met the rootstock bug #431917 and question 83414 as well. it seems that these two bugs haven't any update on LP.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 431917 in project-rootstock "When creating an image for Karmic, the folder /etc/network is no-existent" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/431917
<eggonlea> do you guys have any suggestion to create a fresh Karmic rootfs from scratch?
<eggonlea> I have to do this because when apt-get update/upgrade, the old Karmic rootfs would encounter some libc GLIBC_PRIVATE symbol missing error.
<eggonlea> Lots of packages complain that and the rootfs fails to work after the imcomplete upgrade.
<eggonlea> I'm trying to re-generate a fresh Karmic rootfs as before, but this time it fails because of the bug above.
<lool> eggonlea: Ping ogra
<lool> eggonlea: You might want to use #ubutnu-arm though
<lool> *#ubuntu-arm
<eggonlea> i see
<eggonlea> thanks, I'm leaving for there
<media_savvy> hello all, 
<media_savvy> iam running ubuntu MID on Intel atom with GMA 500 
<media_savvy> looks really nice , 
<media_savvy> has anyone tied the nbtk toolkit on it ?
<media_savvy> from here, http://moblin.org/projects/netbook-toolkit-nbtk
<media_savvy> tied = tried
<media_savvy> iam not able to run the examples. though clutter runs very well 
<media_savvy> if anyone has been successful, please let me know 
<face2faceonlinux> hello all 
<face2faceonlinux> where can i find the getting started docs for ubuntu MID APP development 
<face2faceonlinux> iam new to ubuntu mid 
<face2faceonlinux> any pointers would be helpful
<lool> njpatel: UX team updated software-store bug
<njpatel> lool: cool, will check it out
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-23
<ian_brasil> lool, you around?
<lool> ian_brasil: Yes but busy right now -- in one hour?
<ian_brasil> ok 
<mac_v> plars: could you add a screenshot for Bug #435465
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 435465 in humanity-icon-theme "Sound & Video icon in UNR is blurry" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/435465
<mac_v> plars: also, could you check if the theme has a /usr/share/icons/humanity/categories/64/applications-multimedia.svg icon ? i believe the problem has been fixed in the revs since the last UNR snapshot
<plars> mac_v: sure, give me a sec
<plars> mac_v: I just updated this system this morning, but it looks like there's already an update in the queue for humanity-icon-theme, let me check that first
<plars> mac_v: before update at least, that file does not exist
<mac_v> yeah ,  that has been fixed , we added the 64px icons specifically for UNR 
<plars> mac_v: well, the file is there now, but it still looks blurry
<plars> mac_v: will attach a screenshot, sec
<mac_v> plars: hm.. ok thanks... did you logout and re-login? or restarted panel? panel icons do not take effect until restarted
<plars> mac_v: I even rebooted
<mac_v> oh... ok.. will have a look into it
<mac_v> plars: also... what is the version of the latest update? 
<plars> mac_v: 0.3~20090923+r276-0ubuntu1
<lool> plars, mac_v: I just pushed 0.3.1
<mac_v> plars: hmm.. ok.. i'll see what the problem is
<plars> lool: oh yeah? well I just updated so you weren't fast enough buddy! :)
<lool> :-)
<plars> hasn't shown up yet
<lool> ian_brasil: Sorry forgot to ping you
<lool> ian_brasil: Still around?
<plars> i'll pull again later and see
<ian_brasil> lool, hey
<lool> hey
<ian_brasil> not sure rbelem is around
<mac_v> lool: do you have an idea what size icons are used in the main panel?
<lool> ian_brasil: let's just chat about what you wanted to bringup yesterday; he can catchup later or we can one-to-one any three of us
<ian_brasil> cool...so we have made a plan for the MID Remix @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuMIDRemix
<mac_v> main panel menu*
<ian_brasil> basically update the packages, add notify-osd, make a gtkrc
<ian_brasil> update ubuntu-cdimage and the seeds
<lool> mac_v: left categories?
<mac_v> yeah
<lool> mac_v: it might be 44 looking at the code, but not sure
<ian_brasil> we are looking for the upstream source a.t.m but should have this done in about a week
<lool> ian_brasil: Ok; concerning the name, MID versus MID remix
<lool> ian_brasil: You want to use remix?
<lool> ian_brasil: We're using mid in cdimage and on the weatherreport and we have a mid seed
<ian_brasil> if it is possible then yes
<mac_v> lool: ok.. thanks , ,but 44 is a weirdly odd size... or is it 48?
<lool> Do these places need to be updated or is it ok if you use the technical name mid for hosting?
<ian_brasil> i think rbelem wanted to update the seeds but i see no problem with the name MID
<lool> mac_v: looking at netbook-launcher/nl-sidebar-item.c nl_sidebar_item_new(), it does   ctk_image_set_size (image, 44); ctk_image_set_from_pixbuf (image, icon);
<ian_brasil> at least for hosting..the idea is to get a release out of the door for Karmic and then think a bit more for karmic +1
<lool> mac_v: ping UNR upstream folks to confirm or check a screenshot?
<lool> ian_brasil: So it's going to be really hard for karmic
<mac_v> ok... 
<lool> ian_brasil: The release team might have issues with an image which wasn't in any alpha
<ian_brasil> if we take @1 week for package updates and @1 week for the rest that gives 2 weeks leeway
<lool> ian_brasil: But we can try
<lool> ian_brasil: Keep in mind that it's the time of the cycle where we have the least amount of extra bandwidth for unplanned stuff
<lool> We're getting dumped unplanned stuff every day on us, so it's though to make time
<lool> ian_brasil: Anyway, let's try
<ian_brasil> lool, ok..then we should try to do everything which will help
<lool> ian_brasil: So we need to transform your plan in a finer grained list of items
<lool> ian_brasil: And also look at assignee
<ian_brasil> like naming and so on..the idea is not to bother you with anything apart from pinging when we upload and asking quaestions here
<lool> ian_brasil: So the way I see it, you'll need FFEs for a bunch of hildon-ish packages
 * rbelem here
<ian_brasil> lool, yes exactly this
<lool> ian_brasil: On https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuMIDRemix could you please update packages to only list source packages, not binary packages?  that reads more clearly and avoids repetition
<ian_brasil> lool, yes of course
<lool> ian_brasil: So once we have a clearly outlined plan (should be clear after this discussion, just need to reflect it in the wiki page), I think we should talk to release team about it
<lool> Pointing out the plan, explaining that it's mostly universe stuff, and underlining that we're trying to make it but it's not blocking the karmic release
<lool> ian_brasil: So what type of image do you want to release?
<lool> or build
<lool> At this point of the cycle, all uploads are soon going to be reviewed and manually approved
<lool> (It might be that the release team says it's too late for the changes)
<ian_brasil> Ok..we would like to build a .img
<ian_brasil> we will make a PPA and upload to that
<lool> One thing I also expect they might raise is the fact that if you dont make it to beta they dont want of an image in final
<lool> Ok so if you shoot for an universe + PPA image it's a bit more work to setup but you're free to do more changes in PPA
<lool> That might be more reasonnable given the timelin
<lool> e
<ian_brasil> lool, that is reasonable question from the release team
<lool> ian_brasil: So .img is what we used to do for MID and UNR
<lool> but we moved to ISO
<lool> reason is that it's easier to manipulate ISOs and we have a tool to convert to .img but not the other way around
<ian_brasil> lool, ok so then it makes more sense to do an .ISO
<lool> Ok
<lool> I take it you want a live image?
<ian_brasil> for this release we will build image with packages already in repository
<ian_brasil> for the next everything can be updated
<ian_brasil> yes a live image
<lool> So I checked where the mid seed wa
<lool> was
<lool> It's in bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/
<lool> mobile.karmic
<lool> Which means you can't easily push to it
<lool> Is one of you MOTU?
<ian_brasil> rbelem, has been playing around with the seeds quite a lot
<ian_brasil> no i am not
<lool> So it will make it hard to work on the packages in Ubuntu and on the seeds; we need to use a special ownership then
<lool> I'm checking what xubuntu does
 * rbelem back again
<ian_brasil> we  have a local mirror set up and are building cd images locally 
<lool> They use a team and invited ubuntu-core-dev to it
<ian_brasil> cool..so we can do the same thing
<lool> So I'm not sure reusing ~ubuntu-mobile is a good idea
<lool> It has many members and is quite convoluted into many meaning
<lool> s
<lool> Perhaps ~ubuntu-mid?
<ian_brasil> lool, ok..i will update the wiki page
<lool> I have to tell you that I personally find the "MID" name not ideal because it denotes a device type; so if you ever want to target more than that or something slightly different it looks weird
<lool> For instance the N900 could be considered a MID or a phone
<mac_v> plars: lol... ! thats not humanity ;)
<lool> Another note: PPA will restrict you to i386/amd64/lpia
<ian_brasil> lool,nokia will love you for saying that
<mac_v> plars: the was one of the problems with Human i had mention to lool about
<lool> You want i386 or armel too?
<ian_brasil> lool, let me talk with rbelem about that
<lool> Ok
<lool> I mean I wouldn't mind much more if you'd come up with "Foobar" as a project name; we can currently reuse some bits but the history isn't too interesting
<ian_brasil> i gotta run now..will ping you later..rbelem you have questions?
<lool> The last thing I wanted to tell you guys about is livecd-rootfs
<lool> You want to use that to output a squashfs which contains your rootfs
<lool> That should work with your seed
<rbelem> lool, i will read the log and probably will have some questions
<rbelem> ops
<rbelem> ian_brasil, 
<lool> You can setup team + ppa + seed + meta + livecd-rootfs without me I think
<lool> rbelem: ok
<lool> It's late for me too but I'm around a little longer
<rbelem> lool, n900 ia a phone and mid
<rbelem> *is
<lool> rbelem: Yes, so MID in the name of the image is a bit restrictive perhaps?
<rbelem> lool, thats true
<rbelem> lool, i do not like very much Mer, because it sounds another thing in portuguese
<rbelem> the name
<rbelem> Mer
<rbelem> :-)
<lool> I understand
<lool> So it's something you cant easily change later
<rbelem> lool, hum... i can change later
<rbelem> lool, but i think it is better a better name
<plars> mac_v: ah, ok
<lool> rbelem: EPARSE
<rbelem> lool, eparse?
<rbelem> what it means?
<lool> rbelem: That I couldn't understand what you wrote
<lool> Couldn't parse it
<rbelem> ah!
<rbelem> :-D
<lool> I dont think it's easy to change a project's name no
<rbelem> lool, i mean... i will look for another name. if i wont find a good one, we will use ubuntu-mer-remix
<rbelem> ah! ok
<lool> Well I dont want to force you guys; you can use MID if you like; I find it's going to cause confusion on the short and long term but it's your project   :-)
<rbelem> it is better to avoid this confusion. i will look for another name until tomorrow. 
<rbelem> lool, what do you think about our small plan that is in the wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuMIDRemix
<lool> rbelem: I think it's what I commented on with ian_brasil earlier
<rbelem> lool, <lool> You want i386 or armel too? A: i386, lpia and armel
<lool> rbelem: Ok; it's not currently possible to get armel in PPAs by default
<rbelem> lool, <lool> You can setup team + ppa + seed + meta + livecd-rootfs without me I think    A: yep :-)
<rbelem> lool, ok... then for now i386 and lpia for ppa
<rbelem> lool, and i can build on my machine armel packages and images
<lool> rbelem: BTW if it's built from PPA, you need to name the image "Remix"
<lool> Like Ubuntu Foobar Remix
<lool> because it's not built from the official ubuntu archive
<lool> But you can use Ubuntu Foobar in all technical names
<lool> e.g. the team and seed can be named ubuntu-foobar
<rbelem> lool, no problem :-)
<rbelem> lool, i guess i dont have more questions, but if you have more recommendations... :-)
<rbelem> lool, i really want to be a motu too 
<lool> That might be a way towards MOTU
<rbelem> lool, i tried some years ago, but i spoke english even worse, and was too young
<rbelem> cool!
<rbelem> lool, thanks for you attention :-) tomorrow i will have some of your recommendations ready
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-24
<rbelem> ian_brasil, ping
<ian_brasil> ian_brasil, pong
<ian_brasil> :0 rbelem pong
<rbelem> ian_brasil, lets discuss about the name
<ian_brasil> ok..i will work on the source package list while we are doing that
<ian_brasil> i dont like MID too much 
<rbelem> ian_brasil, i was thinking something like "fuels the device"
<ian_brasil> what lool said yesterday makes sense about devices
<rbelem> yep
<ian_brasil> sounds good to me..maybe we just need like 1 word
<rbelem> ian_brasil, one small word
 * ian_brasil puts fuels the device into google
<rbelem> ian_brasil, something like eletric, electron
<rbelem> ian_brasil, hum?
<ian_brasil> electric sounds cool
<rbelem> ian_brasil, spin?
<ian_brasil> ha ha...swerve
<rbelem> ian_brasil, swerve?
<ian_brasil> desvio
<ian_brasil> spin sounds pretty good too
<rbelem> ian_brasil, i liked spin
<ian_brasil> me too..that sounds cool rbelem 
<rbelem> ian_brasil, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spin
<ian_brasil> spin is a fundamental characteristic property of elementary particles
<ian_brasil> nice!
<rbelem> lool, what do you think about ubuntu-spin-remix?
<rbelem> ian_brasil, cool!
<ian_brasil> rbelem, for me that name is ok..if we go with that can you set the team and ppa up
<rbelem> ian_brasil, let's wait for lool 
<ian_brasil> ok
<rbelem> ian_brasil, let's continue our search 
<ian_brasil> rbelem, i am doing that now
<ian_brasil> rbelem, should i pull hildon desktop from debian ..it is 1:2.0.19 and the version in ubuntu is 1:2.0.11 
<rbelem> ian_brasil, add a column with debian version
<ian_brasil> rbelem, ok
<rbelem> ian_brasil, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yare
<ian_brasil> huh?
<rbelem> ian_brasil, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/swiftness
<ian_brasil> rbelem, choosing something like this is not a good idea IMO
<rbelem> eheheh
<ian_brasil> if the remix is not that swift then lots of fun can be had by people!
<ian_brasil> i like spin or spun or span
<ian_brasil> or spinning , whirling ..something like that
<rbelem> ian_brasil, something like Hitchhiking
<rbelem> ian_brasil, what do you think?
<dereks>  /topic
<ian_brasil> rbelem, nice..hitchiking..ha ha
<rbelem> ian_brasil, "On the Road"
<rbelem> ian_brasil, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ride
<ian_brasil> i called the liferea port 'Frothing' - feed reading on the hoof
<rbelem> eheheh
<ian_brasil> rbelem, i updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuMIDRemix
<lool> ian_brasil: Hey
<ian_brasil> lool, hi
<lool> ian_brasil: spin is a bit problematic because it's analog in meaning to flavour
<lool> ian_brasil: We often say "the moblin spin"
<ian_brasil> ah ok
<lool> Perhaps you should consider a symbolic name which has no actual meaning
<lool> Or take a cheese name
<lool> Ubuntu Roquefort Remix
<lool> ian_brasil: I feel bad for taking part in the project name discussion
<ian_brasil> only a french person could think of that ;)
<lool> Bah you could name it after a cow if you like  :-)
<ian_brasil> rbelem is in a meeting now so i will talk with him..i quite like the idea of some name without meaning
<lool> For instance Mer has nothing to do with tablets
<lool> ian_brasil: I think it would help a lot if you guys would write down the actual goals of the project you're creating
<lool> What does it solve over the existing projects, why is it there, what's the motivation, philosophy etc. etc.
<ian_brasil> yes we will..one big one is to be free desktop compliant
<ian_brasil> personally remove all the hard coded nastyness in the theming would be awesome
<lool> These are technical goals
<lool> Just like building an image
<lool> ian_brasil: For instance you could have for a goal to bring the latest Maemo technologies to tablet users basing on Ubuntu software
<lool> Or creating a demonstration and development environment for tablet users
<lool> Or enabling programmers to develop Maemo apps under Ubuntu
<lool> Or all of that
<lool> You need a scope so to speak   :-)
<ian_brasil> ok i will do that..it will be a small scope 
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-25
<leaf-sheep> Greets.  I wanted to know if Ubuntu-Mobile will be supported in Karmic since I haven't seen anything for Karmic lately in PPA.
<davidbarth> lool: hi, can you confirm that #433386 is fix-released on your end?
<lool> davidbarth: looking
<davidbarth> lool: ok thanks
<lool> I mean I'm currently double checking but I'm confident it is given Neil's comment
<lool> probably he just didn't close the launcher task
<lool> davidbarth: Actually it doesn't look like it is
<lool> davidbarth: I see Update Manager and Synaptic Package Manager and Add/Remove Applications (this seems bogus) but no Ubuntu Software Store
<lool> davidbarth: I think I know what the bug is
<lool> davidbarth: Hmm no
<lool> davidbarth: I dont know what's wrong but I dont see it
<davidbarth> njpatel: do you have an idea why lool can't get the software store to show up in UNR? ^^
<lool> One thing I spotted is that it was missing a colon at the end of the categories list
<lool> but adding it and killing netbook-launcher didn't help
<njpatel> lool: I see it in yesterdays image  in "system->administration->Ubuntu Software Store", and it runs fine
<lool> njpatel: I dont see it in today's image
<njpatel> lool: did software-store update yesterday?
<lool> I just checked and I really have the latest
<davmor2> lool: would you like a confirmation?
<lool> davmor2: Yes
<lool> njpatel: Yes
<njpatel> lool: maybe something in it's desktop file changed. I'll download todays image and see
<lool> njpatel: We updated UNR too
<njpatel> lool: the code to handle this is in liblauncher, and we didn't touch that
<lool> njpatel: I checked and I could get it to appear in Accessories by changing the .desktop file but cant do anything to put it in System
<davmor2> transfering to usb now
<lool> njpatel: That's from a vm running the .iso from today
<njpatel> lool:  I see it on my desktop running the launcher in a window...investigating
<davmor2> booting
<lool> Hmpf my desktop background changed to pee yellow
<davmor2> lool: I don't see software-store on live on hw installing now to check on installed desktop (I'm assuming it won't be there, but better safe than sorry)
<lool> njpatel: ^
<lool> davidbarth: So I confirm it's not fixed
<njpatel> lool: davidbarth: It *was* fixed, they've changed the desktop file so I need to change liblauncher to match
<njpatel> lool: davidbarth: I'll make a release in a bit with the fix...it should also prevent this happening in the future
<lool> njpatel: Sorry, it's broken again, didn't want to imply it wasnt fixed yesterday
<lool> njpatel: Do you think the missing semi-colon is an issue?
<njpatel> lool: Heh, sorry, you caught me in the middle of swearing at the software store people
<njpatel> lool: no, it's actually an assumption in liblauncher which has been caught out by the change
<njpatel> lool: it's a trivial fix, just want to test it to make sure it doesn't happen again
<lool> k
<davmor2> lool: not on installed either just for the sake of confirmation :)
<lool> Ok thanks
<njpatel> lool: davidbarth: https://edge.launchpad.net/liblauncher/0.1/0.1.8 fixes the software store issue
<lool> njpatel: dropping doc?
<njpatel> lool: we didn't build docs for karmic anyway
<lool> rehouse_orphans() that's so nice
<njpatel> heh :)
<lool> njpatel: uploaded but needs release team approval
<njpatel> lool: okay, thank you :)
<lool> davidbarth: ^
<njpatel> lool: hey, no gwibber in the UNR install?
<njpatel> lool: it's on the desktop by default, no?
<davmor2> njpatel: No gwibber got pulled
<njpatel> davmor2: from desktop too?
<davmor2> njpatel: unless it changed over night yes.  It's not on my karmic test install
<njpatel> davmor2: ah right, I'm probably mistaken then
<njpatel> damn, it would have been nice to have that in UNR
<davmor2> njpatel: I think it was proposed but got dropped
<njpatel> davmor2: Ah I see, thanks
<njpatel> bah, gnome-web-photo in karmic is busted
<lool> njpatel: Yes it got removed
<lool> njpatel: We had it in UNR for a couple of weeks
<lool> njpatel: But it needed old libs to go to main IIRC so we could have promoted it, but the plan was for a 2.0 to come soon and for desktop to seed it
<lool> njpatel: So we waited for that but it didn't happen
<lool> njpatel: Now it seems we have that 2.0 in Ubuntu
<lool> I think it's too late to seed it in desktop, and quite late for UNR too
<ogra> lool, did the UNR theme reversion happen ?
<lool> No, we decided not to
<lool> Instead we pushed new Humanity versions and switched the desktop to Humanity as you probably noticed
<ogra> can you unmilestone ?
<ogra> i didnt, my UNR isntall is over a month old :)
<ogra> its still assigned to DX and milestoned for beta
<ogra> paulliu, lool, i guess bug 425547 is still in progress ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 425547 in Ubuntu Karmic "Ubuntu Moblin Remix: Merging ~moblin PPA packages into karmic" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/425547
<paulliu> ogra: yes. it is.
<lool> ogra: That bug is still an issue
<lool> ogra: We need to fix the colourful icons or the greyscale icons
<ogra> ok
<ogra> TPM was merged, right ? 
<lool> We ported the moblin apps to tmc 5 in the PPA
<ogra> ok
<ian_brasil> rbelem, will you work on the wiki page?
<AndIrc> grue	master you about?
<lool> GrueMaster: ^
<rbelem> ian_brasil, i will work this afternoon
<ian_brasil> rbelem, think about what lool said yesterday about the scope..i will do the hildon stuff this weekend and maybe you do the seeds and generate a test image
<ian_brasil> what do you think?
<rbelem> ian_brasil, ok! after finish the seed things i will help you with the packages
<ian_brasil> cool..should we use humanity gtkrc?
<davmor3> lool: you about still?
<davmor3> lool: When you get this.  Incase you hadn't noticed the latest upgrade pulled pidgin back in.  I'm assuming that shouldn't be the case.  
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-09-27
 * Debolaz tries the Dell sponsored Ubuntu Moblin release.
 * jmc93739653 is away: Away
<deus13> hi
<deus13> I'd like to install ubuntu mobile on this device =>  http://www.akori.fr/manuels/Tatung%20WebPadTX2000_eng.pdf     
<deus13> the processor is a Transmeta TM5800, 733MHz     ...
<deus13> I don't know how to proced  to get the image...
<deus13> i found this one => mid-8.04.1-mccaslin-install-usb.img       
 * jmc93739653 is away: Away
 * jmc93739653 is back (gone 02:49:35)
