#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-05
<scott-work> rlameiro: any luck in getting hold of stochastic for the OSM interview?
<scott-work> i have to admit that I am getting slightly excited about it :)
<rlameiro> scott-work: i haven saw stochastic on the irc 
<rlameiro> maybe you could send him some mail or something
<rlameiro> i am starting to be preocupied with him...
<scott-work> rlameiro: right-o, I will send an email later today and see if he responds
<scott-work> you say he's busy with work lately?
<rlameiro> i dont know
<rlameiro> i only spoke with him on IRC
<scott-work> oh, and I may need to take a break from some of the -dev work because on the way to work I noticed the new traffic signals on the road were slightly turned and therefore hard to see correctly, and I thought, "hm, someone should file a bug for that!"
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> its getting to you
<rlameiro> back
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-06
<scott-work> jussi01: email sent to jdong...sorry I'm a dork sometimes :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-07
<rlameiro> ScottL: any news about Stochastic?
<ScottL> not yet, but i just sent the email not too long ago...i'm hoping to get an answer tonight though :)
<rlameiro> :)
 * abogani waves
<abogani> persia: Stupid and fast question: Is change name to a source package painful?
<scott-work> hi abogani 
<scott-work> abogani: I still have on my list to create a wiki page for the kernel information that you gave to me, a few tasks that I have left are taking about 1.5 weeks longer than anticipated
<abogani> scott-work: Ok, thanks!
<TheMuso> ScottL: How is the testing for beta 2 going?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-08
<ScottL> TheMuso, i am guessing you mean me specifically rather than in the general community sense
<ScottL> i should be starting to test the next ISO this Friday
<TheMuso> ScottL: the community sense.
<ScottL> i've read some very complimentary emails from teza and laurent, so i would view that positively :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, ^^^
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok are they putting their results on the tracker?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i don't know at this time...i was going to look when I downloaded the ISO
<TheMuso> ok
<ScottL> but i speculate many are not
<ScottL> TheMuso, i just checked and the numbers that are reporting testing with qatracker are low :(
 * TheMuso sighs
<ScottL> i think i'll send out another email about reporting ISO testing with some links
<TheMuso> The tracker matters. If we don't complete testing for an arch, it doesn't get released, as evident by beta 1 amd64.
<ScottL> TheMuso,   amd64 has all tests completed (4/4) and i386 has one remaining...i will take care of that this Friday
<TheMuso> hrm I'll see what one is left.
<TheMuso> Beta 2 may be released by friday
<ScottL> okay, i can do it tonight then...it's the full disk
<TheMuso> Ah ok, I may also be able to do it. Just gotta sort out a machine to do it on...
<TheMuso> Probably a VM is good enough.
<ScottL> i'm also trying to get skype working on another machine to interview with the open source musicians podcast
<ScottL> having trouble getting everything working :(   thinking about adding pulseaudio-module-jack and trying it with jack also
<TheMuso> skype works with pulse, if you use the latest beta
<ScottL> i was using ubuntu studio and skype 2.1beta
<TheMuso> hrm ok
<ScottL> i got in working on my hardy partition but it doesn't sound very good, so i at least have that fall back
<TheMuso> right
<ScottL> heh, rebooted from hardy into lucid and now skype works on test call :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, tested the ISO and reported :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: ok thanks heaps.
<ScottL> TheMuso, so if beta 2 isn't tested there the RC isn't released?
<ScottL> s/there/then
<TheMuso> ScottL: no, the RC gets tested as well.
<TheMuso> so fi there is no beta 2, there still can be an rc.
<ScottL> what if the RC isn't tested?
<ScottL> TheMuso, when I think about how many "testers" are in the testing team and the level of ISO reporting I get quite cross :/
<TheMuso> ScottL: not sure.
<TheMuso> I agree.
<TheMuso> It is all well and good to test, but you need to report your results somewhere.
<ScottL> yes, there are quite a few people who test and report to the -user mailing list, i'm really hoping to "encourage" them to report on the ISO
<ScottL> perhaps a little education would help, i.e. lack of complete test cases yields lack of next ISO
<ScottL> an "official" ubuntu studio blog that fed to Planet Ubuntu would be great so that a weekly Ubuntu Studio fact could be posted
<ScottL> i'm going to apply for membership later this month (or early next month) maybe i'll syndicate my own blog then
<TheMuso> ScottL: Ok great, I'll support you.
<ScottL> TheMuso, thanks for the membership support offer, I really appreciate it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-09
<rlameiro> hey scott-work 
<scott-work> good morning rlameiro 
<scott-work> rlameiro: sent an email to stochastic again about OSM interview, still waiting for response :(
<rlameiro> :(
<rlameiro> the interview was due tomorrow, wasnt it?
<scott-work> yes, tomorrow morning at 8:00 CST
<rlameiro> CST?
<rlameiro> Central "S" Time?
<scott-work> currently it is 6:50 CST
<rlameiro> 6 hours sooner than me :D
<rlameiro> scott-work: you work so early???
<scott-work> yeah, about three days a week I like to get here at 6:30, i'm a E/D supervisor for two offices and getting in early allows me to actually be productive before everyone else gets here ;)
<rlameiro> he he
<stochastic> ScottL, you around?
<ScottL> stochastic, yes
<stochastic> ScottL, I'll have a lot of trouble making a 6am interview as I get off work tonight at 11am
<stochastic> ScottL, it was suggested just now in #opensourcemusicians that we bump the interview back two hours 10am CST or 8am PST
<ScottL> stochastic, lol, i told them i'm good for several hours +/-, what is a good time?
<ScottL> stochastic, 10am CST is good
<stochastic> ScottL, sweet.
<ScottL> stochastic, i'm really glad you will be there also
<stochastic> ScottL, provided my alarm clock gets me up, yes (I have been known for struggling with that, but I'll do my best
<stochastic> sorry I've been living under a rock in seclusion for the past couple weeks or so
<ScottL> hopefully your back now :)
<stochastic> well my schedule should clear up significantly in the coming weeks
<ScottL> stochastic, going out to eat with the family, i'll read back when we get back
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-10
<ScottL> stochastic, you up?
<rlameiro> time to talk
<rlameiro> stochastic: :D  are you up?
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Are anyone around?
<abogani> I'm looking for sponsor: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani/linux-rtPPUApplication
<abogani> Thanks!
<ScottL> hello abogani , i hope you are having a good day/night
<abogani> ScottL: I hope the same for you.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-11
 * abogani waves
<abogani> I'm looking for sponsors: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani/linux-rtPPUApplication
<abogani> Thanks!
<abogani> TheMuso: ^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-04
<ailo> But, the changes are pretty big.
<ailo> I think it will take some time to get used to these new UI's. Also, one wonders how those will be adopted and used. Gnome 3, the way it looks to me, is Gnome with a new panel. Windows themselves seem to work the same as before, with resizing and such
<ScottL> ailo, for gnome3 it seemed that rhythmbox had an entire window and when i started another app (don't remember which) it took over the whole screen
<ailo> ScottL, You can always minimize the apps. 
<ailo> I mean, make them smaller
<ScottL> when i moved my cursor over to the right, a panel came up with the two apps and i could choose between them
<ailo> unmaximize
<ScottL> lol, different way to say it :)
<ScottL> i also heard that gnome is removing the min, max buttons from the window
<ScottL> they didn't ask the community, it was a design decision within the core group
<ScottL> i'm building excitement about using xfce (if we choose to go that way)
<ailo> ScottL, They also want to keep supporting gnome 2 apps, so I don't know. I can't believe they would replace one thing with another, if it is not functional on a Desktop, but then again, I'm not aware of their goals
<ScottL> we will see at some point i suppose
<ScottL> but i would really like to have a viable  contingency plan however
<ailo> ScottL, I don't see XFCE as the future. I can only see it as a safe transition. For me, it's one step back in some way
<ScottL> ailo, what would you suggest or recommend?
<ailo> Gnome 3 is so young. And, I at least have no idea about their plans
<ScottL> have you used unity at all?  their functionality seems to be very similar
<ailo> I think XFCE might be the best choice for 11.10. During that time people will have time to test Gnome 3. 
<ScottL> not in specific methodologies, but in overall approaches
<ScottL> but even if we found the "perfect" base from which to build, it still may not be viable
<ScottL> simply because we lack the developer resources
<ScottL> ailo, which part of xfce do you see as a step back?
<ScottL> is there missing functionality that was present in gnome?
<ailo> Don't think there is any functionality missing compared with Gnome 2. It's just simpler, and maybe not as tweakable. It's a traditional desktop.
<ailo> I mean, there are probably things you can do with XFCE that you can't with Gnome, but, it's still not the same.
<ailo> I used XFCE when I had Puredyne installed
<ailo> I just don't see it as the future. But, for Ubuntu Studio, I think stability, performance and ease of use is most important. With XFCE those things should be no problem
<ScottL> i see several substantial benefits if we go with xfce
<ScottL> * we effectively have a larger developer resource pool
<ScottL> * it could be argued that this developer resource pool will have more experience and knowledge
<ScottL> * i believe we will have easier access to creating a live dvd
<ScottL> * the xfce developers will be acting as a buffer between us (studio devs) and the desktop
<ScottL> meaning that when an icon doesn't show up in our stuff, most likely someone else than from our team will address it
<ScottL> * presumably we will be using a DE requiring less memory
<ScottL> and i wouldn't be surprised if cory wasn't able to come up with a pretty snazzy desktop as well for xfce
<ScottL> most likely all blacks and grays again
 * ScottL admits that he is partial to dark themes
<ailo> ScottL, If Gnome 3 will be tweakable to a nice degree, I think it will rule. Just now, I couldn't find a way to change the theme even, but that will of course change. Ubuntu, going for Wayland in Unity and there's been talk about QT as well, dropping X. Perhaps there will be no single best choice for a desktop for a while. Could depend on the machine as much as the user. Anyway, the user will be able to choose either way.
<ailo> Don't know what Gnome 3 is planning in regard for X, for instance
<ailo> I mean Gnome, not Gnome 3
<ailo> I read somewhere that Gnome will also go for Wayland later on
<ScottL> good guess
<ScottL> i've heard the x is horrible in terms of retaining legacy code and is quite bulky
<ScottL> i think ubuntu got the hole shot with moving to wayland (or at least announcing it)
<ScottL> even though they got skewered in the media originally (and by the pundits)
<ScottL> not that i'm necessarily a canonical/ubuntu fanboi, because i'm not
<ailo> Most people don't seem to like change, which is perhaps not the strongest reason for people objecting. I can understand first impressions can do that, because the UI is not presented well, or is not working well yet.
<ailo> But, with a little imagination, I think both Unity and Gnome 3 look pretty good, in different ways.
<ScottL> yeah, that's true
<ScottL> i'm less impressed with unity, but i think it's for a different audience
<ScottL> i think gnome3 looked brilliant, kinda like kde in some ways, but i though it looked really, really good
<ailo> I agree. Unity seems more tuned towards mobile devices.
<ScottL> absolutely, or touch tablets
<ScottL> i was actually a bit jealous of how good gnome3 looked :)
<TheMuso`> I think the unity launcher needs to be movable, i.e bottom, right, left, etc.
<TheMuso`> But other than that, unity is very Mac OS esc.
<holstein> TheMuso`: AGREED
<holstein> i keep thiking thats going to be in an update
<TheMuso`> I also don't like the menus not being shown unless you mouse over them.
<holstein> no reason to lock it in place
<TheMuso`> Users WILL get confused with that, for sure.
<holstein> TheMuso`: i hope its not too different
<holstein> folks typically dont like that much change
<holstein> but, i do like the direction
<holstein> i think that was the biggest problem with vista
<holstein> it was SO much different than XP
<holstein> all the OSX's are more similar to each other i find
<TheMuso`> OS X's core design hasn't changed since it was released, and now for Lion things are going to change slightly.
<ScottL> TheMuso`, do you have any comments on possibly moving to xfce?
<TheMuso`> ScottL: Nothing other than possibly less memory/resources used.
<TheMuso`> And that the panels may not be customizable, but I could be wrong there.
<ScottL> TheMuso`, here's what cory has already worked up:  http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6728/screenshotoof.png
<TheMuso`> Nice.
<ailo> scott-work, padevchooser should be removed to. It's not working and I don't think there's any use for it anyway. 
<ailo> too*
<scott-work> ailo: i'll try to dig into that tonight when i'm home
<scott-work> TheMuso: if you haven't already removed -controls from the seeds can you wait a day or two?
<scott-work> i'd like to review what ailo is suggesting
<rlameiro> scott-work: ping
<scott-work> hi rlameiro :)
<rlameiro> hey :D
<rlameiro> I just found a website that I found amazing
<rlameiro> remeber that idea you had for the website
<rlameiro> a kind of place to show newcommers and alike about the software in it?
<rlameiro> scott-work: well..... http://screencasters.heathenx.org/ 
<rlameiro> amazing screencasts CC by SA 3.0 about inkscape
<rlameiro> amazing resource to point to people comming :D
<holstein> inkscape has those nice tutorials in it too
<holstein> rlameiro: o/
<scott-work> rlameiro: it is, i've used a few of their tutorials for inkscape :D
<rlameiro> well, not much news then
<rlameiro> I just found them now...
<scott-work> i think it was troy who turned me onto heathenx and screencasters
<scott-work> their awesome!
<scott-work> they've helped me with video and blender as well
<rlameiro> I do think we could put them on the ubuntu studio page
<scott-work> they have a couple of good, simplistic tutorials for blender and video editing
<rlameiro> maybe under Resources or stuff
<rlameiro> microsodes...
<scott-work> rlameiro: absolutely!
<scott-work> especially if we can hand pick particular videos for the topics we want to discuss
<rlameiro> they even have the video in OGV!!!!!!
<scott-work> :D
<scott-work> i probably should view the videos available again, i haven't really looked at the website for several months
<scott-work> and to be honest, rlameiro, i had forgotten about them and linking it to having tutorials on our website
<rlameiro> 106 episodes....
<rlameiro> This is way better than an online scam course :D
<scott-work> i notice they haven't made any new videos in a while though :(
<rlameiro> well, 106 videos its a lot of videos :D
<scott-work> hehe, that is very, very true
<scott-work> i was playing around with making a video over the weekend
<scott-work> it's very, very rough at this point - http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/video/intro0001-7275.ogg
 * rlameiro watching
<scott-work> the size is too big for one thing and there is no sound at this point
<scott-work> i need to adjust the narrative as well as i realize this doesn't properly address the audience i had intended
<scott-work> in fact i think this probably should be broken into two separate, three-to-four minute videos
<scott-work> there are some technical problems, like a borked end of a video, to address
<scott-work> BUT, for a first foray into making an introductory video for ubuntu studio, i'm pretty happy that i was able to quickly and painlessly create what i did
<rlameiro> it is very nice intro
<rlameiro> people could submit audio for it
<rlameiro> does the logo of studio changed to orang too?
<rlameiro> orange?
<scott-work> rlameiro: not necessarily, it's just the one "recent" logo that i had locally as an .svg file
<rlameiro> oh, so this is like a test script?
<scott-work> rlameiro: i was joking about the "propagana and relations division, multimedia department, vidoe medium <whatever i said here>"
<scott-work> just being silly
<rlameiro> lol
<scott-work> mainly, this was a proof-of-concept video at this point, just to show it can be done, and done fairly well
<rlameiro> well I did liked it very much
<scott-work> i would like it to develop into something nice and something we might use
<scott-work> rlameiro: thank you :)
<rlameiro> I am picturing it on the center of the webpage for something like
<rlameiro> What is Ubuntu studio?
<scott-work> but as i said, this probably may need to be rethought on target audience and goals
<rlameiro> some html5 video stuff :D
<scott-work> rlameiro: exactly!  think of someone who does not use ubuntu or linux and is a musician, they have heard about this "ubuntu studio thing" and want to learn more
<scott-work> we should POUNCE on that, grab it like a life line, and educate that person
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> This could be the intro video
<scott-work> not just entice that person, but COMPEL them to want to use ubuntu studio
<rlameiro> and then have one showing Ardour
<rlameiro> JACK, Inkscape, Gimp
<rlameiro> performing some task from beggining to end
<scott-work> "you want to record music?  you don't want to blow a bajillion bucks for ProTools, Fruity Loops, et al?  Try Ubuntu Studio"
<scott-work> "it is FREE!!!111ONE  that's right FREE"
<rlameiro> for instance, how to edit a 2 minute podcast, mixing music with recorded speech and normalizing etc
<scott-work> "have low end hardware?  it will still work (most likely)!"
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> unlimited tracks, well depens on how much ram you have
<scott-work> but anyone, i was thinking about a heirachal approach to the videos
<scott-work> a beginning one to itnroduce the concept of ubuntu studio and free open source software
<scott-work> another one to show some of the most appreciated "features"
<scott-work> again, i want these to educate people so they want to use ubuntu studio because of what it offers
<rlameiro> well there is a need for one explaining JACK, as it is one of the most "asked" topic
<rlameiro> seting up
<rlameiro> most of the people even dont understand how it works
<scott-work> this week i'll be thinking more about what i want to audience and goals
<scott-work> rlameiro: those can come, but i didn't think we needed those right off the bat
<rlameiro> scott-work: yes, of course. 
<scott-work> i wouldn't even say that a "this is jack" level video would be on the front page
<scott-work> but it certainly would be helpful to a lot of people i readily admit
<scott-work> and we should have one or a link to one at least
<rlameiro> moe than anything explaining jack concept
<rlameiro> most new people into audio doesnt get the "pro" concept of audio routing
<scott-work> i wholeheartedly agreed
<scott-work> especially coming from a windows background
<scott-work> they don't even think of an audio "server"
<scott-work> "you mean there is something i can control or direct for audio?"
<rlameiro> yeah
<rlameiro> I am think at thi moment on a video for it
<scott-work> "it isn't done automatically?  that's how my windows computer does it!  i just have speaker icon on the bottom right to 'control' it"
<rlameiro> with some depictions introducing real life situations
<rlameiro> like an studio.... from the MIc goes to a Pre amp, then goes to a Fx processor, then to a mixer, then in the mixer is routed to the main out etc
<rlameiro> with some diagrams and stuff
<rlameiro> very earthy
<scott-work> rlameiro: do you think you could outline the videos you think we would need?
<scott-work> rough outline is fine
<scott-work> if we could create a framework and define what needs to be done i think we have a better chance of not only encouraging others to help (because they will know exactly what needs to be done)
<scott-work> but we will also have a better chance of actually accomplishing our goal then
<rlameiro> scott-work: sure, I can outline the jack one
<rlameiro> I could do some others maybe
<rlameiro> following loosely the workflows
<scott-work> rlameiro: i wouldn't get bogged down with every little possible video we could do...
<scott-work> try to focus on the ones that new users or people with moderate experience will NEED
<rlameiro> yes, maybe for now 3 or 4 to start
<scott-work> to become competent with ubuntu studio
<scott-work> think top down
<scott-work> intro ubuntu studio
<scott-work> define some concepts (like jack)
<scott-work> show a simplistic tutorial on how to get sound through the system
<scott-work> show a simplistic tutorial on how to record sound in ardour
<scott-work> maybe a simple mixing tutorial
<scott-work> maybe a simple mastering tutorial
<scott-work> something like that
<rlameiro> well, that would be latter
<scott-work> granted there are things i probably left out of there that might go between some of those
<rlameiro> the maybes that is
<scott-work> right
<scott-work>  :)
<rlameiro> How to edit scores
<scott-work> but you see the flow of what i'm talking about
<rlameiro> how to do a simple LOGO 
<rlameiro> How to edit a photo
<scott-work> yeah, i was thinking about midi stuff as well
<rlameiro> how to route midi aand audio from a soft synth
<scott-work> yep
<rlameiro> where do you put this in? WebRevamp?
<scott-work> but we should focus on keeping each of the as accessible to the generl public as possible and still make them functional
<scott-work> rlameiro: i dont' know where these will go eventually...i am hoping the new website
<scott-work> or it could be a ubuntu studio youtube channel
<scott-work> or a ubuntu studio vimeo channel
<scott-work> or all of these :)
<rlameiro> I would dare the videos to be reprucible by the users
<rlameiro> something like taking the source audio file from a specif place on archive.org for instance
<scott-work> right, the purpose of the video is to baffle them with our knowledge but to help them understand it and be able to use it
<rlameiro> scott-work: no... in the wiki
<scott-work> rlameiro: oh, do you mean "where should the outline go?"
<rlameiro> yeap
<scott-work> i think this may need another webpage, like "tutorial video project" or similiar
<rlameiro> hummm
<scott-work> it probably needs another page or get lost amongst all the others
<rlameiro> what about IntroTutVideo
<scott-work> s/others/other work
<scott-work> yeah, i'm less worried about the exact name :P  but feel very strongly about it having it's own page
<rlameiro> oki
<scott-work> this way we might even be able to make a matrix and have people sign up for videos, keep track of what is done, rearrange what we feel is priority, etc
<rlameiro> scott-work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos#preview
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> can i ask you to add another dimension to your structure?  the dimension of importance or order of introduction (the most important being addressed first)
<scott-work> rlameiro: 
<scott-work> consider someone who knows almost nothing about ubuntu studio but is computer literate, maybe familiar with windows and mac
<scott-work> they are fluent enough to move to a new system without hand holding
<scott-work> but we are holding their hand to learn how to use ubuntu studio to record audio/make graphics/make a video
<rlameiro> scott-work: reedited
<scott-work> not to learn how to use ubuntu studio to install new software, or browse the internet, or those other pedestrian tasks
<rlameiro> hummm
<rlameiro> well this was like the big picture but it could be something like edit a podcast for ardour
<rlameiro> maybe
<rlameiro> scott-work: somethink more like this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<falktx> wow, is this discussion about ubuntu tutorials?
<falktx> video...
<scott-work> yes falktx  :)
<falktx> scott-work: rlameiro: AutoStatic and [lsd] already have some nice tutorials
<falktx> awesome!
<rlameiro> yes
 * falktx hopes to make good tutorials some day...
<rlameiro> this are for introduction
<scott-work> rlameiro: it's moving towards what i'm thinking, i'll do some stuff at lunch (about 2 hours hence)
<rlameiro> the idea is to link to others tutorials after that for more in depth stuff
<rlameiro> for instance under the midi categorry / sofsynth we could link to [lsd] tutorials about seq24
<rlameiro> but this are for new commers
<rlameiro> falktx: if you have some idea, please tell :D
<falktx> rlameiro: create a hosting service team?
<falktx> youtube, vimeo or whatever
<falktx> a specific team/channel for this
<falktx> of course, it needs a cool webpage for 3rd party tuts too
<rlameiro> falktx: yeap, scott-work already tought about that :D
<falktx> so, what's the plan?
<scott-work> falktx: we're just talking about making the plan...a meta-plan or planning the plan if you will :P
<rlameiro> falktx: create vidos that atract new users to ubuntu studio
<rlameiro> people comminf from mac / win
<rlameiro> with specific and simple tasks
<scott-work> falktx: basically i also want to make videos that teach people who are ignorant about ubunt ustudio
<scott-work> falktx: it helps people understand that it can help them record audio, or make videos, or pretty graphics, all for free
<scott-work> falktx: but it does so in a simple, direct way that will compel them, not just entice them, to download ubuntu studio and use it
<rlameiro> scott-work: I am sure Ricardo LaFuente would love to do the inkscape one :D
<rlameiro> he loves to teach others :D
<scott-work> rlameiro: but again, it would be a series, show them the basics first...
<scott-work> explain what a svg is, why it is better that bitmap
<scott-work> and move from there
<falktx> ah, back to basics
<rlameiro> I am sure he would do that way better than me :D
<scott-work> show them why they should learn inkscape, why it's better than gimp or others
<scott-work> why it's imperative they use it
<scott-work> again, this is about educating ignorant people and helping them and moderately experienced people become competent
<rlameiro> lol
<scott-work> but as falktx said we need to hit the basics first
<rlameiro> " THE UBUNTU STUDIO ACADEMIE"
<rlameiro> heheh
<scott-work> well, yeah :D
<rlameiro> the name just popped into my mind
<scott-work> this is as much about ubuntu studio as it is about FOSS
<scott-work> we need to show them that there is a viable alternative to all the other stuff, and our stuff rocks harder in many areas
<falktx> scott-work: rlameiro: please check this - http://www.blenderguru.com/
<rlameiro> scott-work: check the overview. is it something like that?
<rlameiro> missplaced, just changed it
<scott-work> falktx: i will look at that
 * scott-work secretly is in love with blender
<scott-work> rlameiro: i will check the change as well
<falktx> blender2.6 will be the greatest thing ever
<falktx> even greater than ardour3
<scott-work> i'm using nightly blender build in ppa from built from svn
<scott-work> it's pretty awesome :)
<scott-work> different from 2.5 but a huge step in the right direction
<rlameiro> scott-work: dude, you are the man of the 7 instruments :D
<scott-work> rlameiro: i find that i'm good at many, many things...just not great at any of them though
<falktx> blender is a good video editor
<falktx> with jack support now, it becomes a serious alternative
<rlameiro> scott-work: that was a good thing some time ago... sadly
<scott-work> falktx: this is a video i played with this weekend   http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/video/intro0001-7275.ogg
<scott-work> falktx: made with blender and inkscape, the video was recorded with gth-recordmydesktop
<falktx> scott-work: haha, no render?
<scott-work> oh, oh, by "video" i meant the recording my desktop to show what i'm describing
<falktx> ah, k
 * falktx downloads
<scott-work> and that's gtk
<scott-work> crap...the video you are downloaded was done in blender and rendered as well
<scott-work> the term "video" after "made with blender and inkscape" is the small parts of the downloading video that are recorded desktop sections
<scott-work> falktx: anyways, it's sort of the proof-of-concept and needs to be majorly reworked both in scope and context
<scott-work> and its' the wrong size and doesn't have any sound yet
<falktx> scott-work: it's big download anyway
<scott-work> falktx: aye, i wasn't refined when i did it, i just wanted it to render at this point
<scott-work> and i took whatever format setting it came with originally
<scott-work> falktx: as to the blenderguru, that is something we should defintely link from our website, even if there are not specific tutorials that our users might need
<falktx> yep
<scott-work> it shows just how powerful blender is
<falktx> scott-work: the video has issues with mplayer, I need to use vlc to view it
<scott-work> falktx: yeah, it blender did something funny in that it rendered a video as a .ogg file (?)
<falktx> scott-work: it's a good video, although I think you still have a lot of text
<scott-work> falktx: i still want to finish more of the video (just to complete my current thrust even if it doesn't properly address the audience or goals) and put it up on vimeo or youtube or something
<scott-work> falktx: yes, lots of text...i want to add audio still, spots of music and some talking perhaps
<scott-work> falktx: any suggestions you have for my video would be very welcome
<falktx> scott-work: give me some time, kinda working now...
<scott-work> falktx: sure :)
<scott-work> rlameiro: working on the wiki now, made some changes and saved it...will continue working as i can throughtout the day
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> I just came back from the groseery store and need to go to a teacher meeting...
<rlameiro> boring
<rlameiro> scott-work: man, you really have the gift for the word :D
<scott-work> rlameiro: thanks :)  i just like to hammer stuff until i have it organized in my head, then the writing is easy :)
<rlameiro> :)
<scott-work> heh, ailo, basically i took what you and i talked about and inflicted it on the stuff rlameiro had done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> it's probably way too much for video tutorials, but it's kinda together and somewhat on it's way to being organized
<scott-work> of course it really is a more comprehesive documentation/video tutorial outline though
<scott-work> which is okay, we can separate things later but i wouldn't mind if you added some to it as well or corrected things as you see them
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-05
<ailo> ScottL, That looks like the beginning of an extensive manual, sort of. Some of things will thankfully not require editing between releases like explaining FOSS and open formats.
<ailo> ScottL, Should we do something similar to what Ubuntu does for their documentation, a release based manual? Most of it may just be a matter of copy and paste.
<ailo> Once the first one is written down, of course
<ScottL> ailo, what else do you think needs to be removed from the seeds...i agree with padevchooser
<ScottL> ailo, right, the beginning of the documentation is a bit extension and i would concede that it is elementary to us that use ubuntu studio already
<ScottL> ailo, but i'm really hoping it lowers the threshold for people to become users (and hopefully end up helping us ;) )
<rlameiro> ScottL: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/us_audio_stream.png
<rlameiro> inkscape file http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/us_audio_stream.svg
<ScottL> rlameiro,  cool, this will be very helpful to help people understand
<ScottL> i was thinking about using colored rectangles :P
<ScottL> yours is a lot nicer :)
<rlameiro> I will send you a tg.gz with all the source files
<rlameiro> ScottL: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/us-image-files.tar.gz
<rlameiro> I started a script for a video
<rlameiro> I will write it down on the wiki now
<rlameiro> ScottL: I added some stuff to the wiki. Please chack my english, i know i suck at it... :D
<ScottL> bah, you and aboganni worry about your english and you guys rock...both of you write english better than many people speak it here :P
<ScottL> certainly better than i can read, write, or speak italian or portuguese  ;)
<ScottL> but i'll check nonetheless :D
<rlameiro> thanks :D
<rlameiro> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/jack_routing.png
<rlameiro> well i did the second depiction
<rlameiro> now maybe i need to talk about multiple inputs? or not?
<rlameiro> or maybe multiple outputs and inputs
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sorry already done.
<Kokito> howdy
<ScottL> TheMuso, that's alright, it hasen't broken anything up till this point :P
<ScottL> i'll make notes to get it during ocelot
<ScottL> and thanks for updating the seeds, TheMuso 
<TheMuso> np
<astraljava> Hey gang... sorry for my absence! Life has been freakin' crazy, what with the divorce and moving and stuff. Ready to come back now, though.
<astraljava> I assume at this point of devel cycle it's about .iso testing and stuff.
<astraljava> I will take a look at what is underway, but are we still having meetings and stuff?
<abogani> divorce?
<astraljava> Yes.
<abogani> I'm sorry.
<astraljava> Thanks.
<abogani> ScottL: ping
<abogani> ScottL: There are the things that I should do theoretically: 1) Investigate on -lowlatency bug reported by Ronan, 2) work on 2.6.39-lowlatency (irqs threads), 3) Update the stable -realtime kernel 4) work on the beta version of the 2.6.38 realtime kernel. What should I do?
<abogani> ScottL: Please let me the main priority.
<abogani> *know
<ScottL> abogani, isn't #3 keeping people from installing he -realtime kernel from your ppa (or is it the -rt kernel in your ppa)?
<ScottL> as much as i want progress on #2, i would say that this is the lowest priority currently, since we will not be using this until ocelot (right?)
<ScottL> do we really absolutely need a 2.6.38 realtime kernel?  it will not be put into the official repos and you already have a relatively current -rt kernel in your ppa, right? (therefore, we are not denying anybody a -rt kernel, just not the absolutely latest one)
<ScottL> i probably would consider #4 last then
<ScottL> abogani,  so most likely look at #1 unless any of my assertions for the considerations are wrong
<ScottL> BUT, which do you think is most important, abogani ?
<ScottL> and, good morning, abogani  :)
<abogani> ScottL: Good morning to you. 
<abogani> :-)
<abogani> The mailing-list thread showed very little interest on 2.6.39-lowlatency kernel. In fact last emails seems show a decreased interest on -lowlatency kernel in general.
<abogani> So I think that we should drop -lowlatency kernel *completely*.
<abogani> ScottL: ^
<ScottL> abogani, i would agree with you if we can get 2.6.39 to include the ability to adjust irq
<ScottL> i think the addition of this functionality is probably going to outweigh any performance increase between -generic and -lowlatency
<abogani> Ocelot'll have that feature for sure.
 * abogani wonders if anyone would have objections about drop -lowlatency kernel
<ailo> abogani, I'm will. I want someone to prove we can use -generic for realtime audio first. Still, I don't see any.
<abogani> ailo: I would let you know that I *completely* agree with you.
<abogani> but seem to me that no one use this kernel. In fact the only tester is you.
<ailo> abogani, Are you sure? One reason could be that it is not in the main repo.
<ailo> abogani, I think -lowlatency is reliable to a high degree, while -generic has not been. Perhaps the irq threading part will make -generic more reliable?
<abogani> Obviously I couldn't be sure. But people should know that if they don't provide help for "out of archive" things these could disapear abruptly. And AFAIK the most of the work on -lowlatency is made by you.
<abogani> It'll sure do but I don't know how much.
<ailo> abogani, Maybe I'm just being a little pedantic then. I suppose Natty will not change much now, so -generic should probably do quite well.
<abogani> ailo: You aren't pedantic at all.
<abogani> ailo: I have ever found your opinions interesting.
<abogani> ailo: It isn't technical thing: the lowlatency kernel is better than -generic one. No one can prove the contrary. But not matter how much is better if no one use it.
<abogani> So I'm +1 to drop -lowlatency completely
<abogani> At the end the UKT will be very happy about my failure :)
<abogani> ailo, ScottL ?
<ailo> I think the problem is that Linux enthusiasts will rather build their own kernel just because they can, or use -realtime because they can (except for some firewire people), while new users and people who just want a functional system would rather just push a button to get everything set. Not many know about -lowlatency yet. 
<ailo> But, if 2.6.39 will change that, this is only a matter for Natty. 
<ailo> There are some who use the wiki to install Ubuntu Studio, or just some packages for it. If we included a PPA there, people would be more likely to install -lowlatency.
<ailo> Hopefully -generic is as balanced on other systems as on mine, in which case the difference will not be that huge.
<ailo> I think I would be interested in building -lowlatency on my own PPA, just for testing purposes. Especially now that 2.6.39 is coming out. I will want to host my version of the -controls there too, but it will take a while before that happens. On -lowlatency maybe you could help me get going on that ScottL?
<ailo> ScottL: I guess this is a good place to start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm sorry to hear about your divorce :(
<scott-work> i missed seeing that this morning
 * scott-work was sleepy eyed and only saw abogani 's red text
<scott-work> to answer your questions:
<scott-work> yes we are mostly testing
<scott-work> and we have started meetings again with the intent that they become regular
<holstein> morning :)
<scott-work> morning holstein :)
 * scott-work is working his way back through IRC log
<scott-work> abogani:  i would still like to compare -generic vs. -lowlatency before we decide to drop anything
<scott-work> abogani: i think -generic handling irq conflicts is a part of this evaluation
<scott-work> abogani: but if -lowlatency can provide reliably better low latencies, then we would be hard pressed to drop -lowlatency
<abogani> obviously
<scott-work> abogani: and if we decide that -lowlatency provides better functionality we will continue to push it into the repos and it will be the default kernel
<scott-work> abogani: see eseentially every ubuntu studio user will be testing it :)
<scott-work> abogani: and since -lowlatency is built off of the -generic, then the -lowlatency will be able to adjust irq conflicts as well, no?
<scott-work> abogani: after building the 2.6.38 -lowlatency kernel i was going to do more testing but since you pointed out the 2.6.39 kernel i felt we should probably wait
<scott-work> especially since we will not get the -lowlatency kernel into natty
<scott-work> abogani: but i commit to you, i will assist in testing 2.6.39 -lowlatency kernel for ocelot and i will aggressively pursue getting it into the repos if it provides appreciably better performance than -generic
 * scott-work admist that he is sorely tempted to pursue getting -lowlatency into the repos if for no other reason that a lot of work has been already invested into it :P
<falktx> scott-work: I'm with you too
<scott-work> hi falktx  :)
<ailo> scott-work, I can agree on testing 2.6.39, -lowlatency vs -generic. We still need to work out how to use irq priorities. It seems the guy who wrote the rtirq is testing that kernel now, so hopefully he will solve that. I learned that it is possible to change priorities for irq manually too
<falktx> with the lack of a recent realtime kernel, we really need that lowlatency working
 * scott-work is still working through IRC logs
<scott-work> ailo: i will provide any assistance i can for building the kernel, although i'm very much inexperienced at this point
<scott-work> ailo: but that wiki page you linked is pretty much a step-by-step guide
<scott-work> ailo: the only thing i haven't put in there is to avoid using a dash "-" in the version number, rather you should use the tilde "~"
<ailo> scott-work, It's a good start at least. Hopefully we won't need the -lowlatency, in which case I won't need to learn any more than that.
<scott-work> falktx: agreed, except if the -generic continues it's improvements and the delta between -generic and -lowlatency continues to reduce
<scott-work> as well
<scott-work> but at this point i would emphatically say that i feel the -lowlatency is the best path at the moment
<scott-work> at least unless more testing is done between -lowlatency and -generic, but for 2.6.39
<falktx> scott-work: isn't natty using 2.6.38 by default ?
<scott-work> falktx: i believe it is 
<scott-work> and -generic at that
<falktx> scott-work: why is 2.6.39 so important?
<ailo> falktx, Right now I am getting failry good results with 2.6.38 -generic. I don't feel 100% assured by it, since it is not only the kernel that decides latency, it would seem, while with -lowlatency you get more stable performance.
<ailo> falktx, On 2.6.39 they added another realtime feature to adjust irq priority
<falktx> I think it's probably better to stick with the normal ubuntu kernel, since it's better supported
<ailo> falktx, Well, -lowlatency is the "normal" kernel too
<falktx> hehe
<scott-work> falktx: yes, ailo is correct, aboganni starts with the -generic kernel, does NOT apply any patches, and the only changes are run time compile flags
<scott-work> falktx: and viola...you have the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> some things we aren't thinking about probably is how the magic "100 line patch" will affect the kernel's performance or if audio users will even notice it
<ailo> scott-work, I highly doubt it from what I read about it
<falktx> scott-work: I checked abogani git repo a few days ago. I think I can make the 2.6.38 kernel work for lucid and maverick
<abogani> For curious: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=abogani/ubuntu-natty-lowlatency.git;a=blob;f=debian.lowlatency/config/config.flavour.lowlatency;h=208ac36381710432d2bfd39fd55b3f116ac18bea;hb=HEAD
<astraljava> scott-work: Thanks! Alright, I'll get right on with it as soon as I get home tonight.
<ailo> falktx, I think it would be great if also things like nvidia drivers would work with that too.
<scott-work> falktx: and sadly it would seem that the Ubuntu Kernel Team (UKT) has been incredibly misinformed as well about how to build a -lowlatency kernel, despite aboganni's assurances of how he made it :/
<scott-work> ailo: falktx  abogani :  can someone explain what is necessary to get nvidia drivers (and/or ATI ?) to work with kernels?
<falktx> scott-work: for lowlatency, nothing
<abogani> Changes are necessary only for the -realtime one. 
<falktx> scott-work: problem is the realtime kernel headers, lowlatency has no issues with drivers
<falktx> yep
<ailo> falktx, But, they need to be built against the kernel, right? So, you would need to build those too?
<falktx> scott-work: the only issue can be that nvidia does not support the kernel yet (as ATI does for 2.6.38)
<falktx> ailo: dkms takes care of that
<ailo> falktx, Err, I have nvidia drivers working on 2.6.38
<falktx> ailo: I said ATI
<falktx> afaik, canonical is working with ATI now
<scott-work> so if we went with either -generic or -lowlatency there would be no further work required for video drivers then?
<scott-work> either for nvidia or ati?
<ailo> falktx, When you say dkms, won't you still need to build the drivers specifically for that kernel version?
<falktx> scott-work: yes
<scott-work> that is awesome!
<falktx> ailo: ah, yes. I meant that dkms usually does this job for us
<falktx> ailo: I think there's a way to force dkms to build for all kernel versions. this way user don't get surprises
<scott-work> between not needing to rebuild video drivers and a possible elimination of the -rt kernel, those are some serious improvements :)
<ailo> So, for Lucid and Maverick, using 2.6.38 will at least mean that one needs to build graphic drivers for those. I wonder what else will be affected?
<falktx> ailo: I have a KXStudio-Team Kernel PPA now. If I put kernels there, I'll ensure compatible drivers will be uploaded too
<scott-work> ailo: but that is if they choose to install the -rt kernel?
<falktx> scott-work: ailo: for rt kernels, patches are needed
<falktx> it's just a matter of creating a new package with the patch included, and tell dkms to use it if kernel is realtime
<ailo> scott-work, No. It's not a matter if it is -generic or -lowlatency. It's a matter of kernel version. For -rt I assume the changes are done on the -rt kernel for the drivers to work
 * falktx still wonder why rt guys changed the kernel headers...
<scott-work> ailo: disregarding -generic, -lowlatency, -rt - if you change kernel version numbers then you must rebuild video drivers
<scott-work> ailo:  is that correct?
<ailo> scott-work, Yes. But, falktx said something about making a driver work for all kernels. Don't know how that works, but I don't think Ubuntu are like that, since they will only work with the kernel version they were built against
<ailo> scott-work, And as stated, since -generic and -lowlatency are the same, no need to patch anything to get anything working.
<scott-work> ailo: right, because UKT or somebody else will have already rebuilt them for the version, right?
<falktx> ailo: something like:
<falktx> sudo dkms build --all
<ailo> But, 2.6.38 is not meant for Lucid or Maverick. I wonder what else, besides graphic drivers would be affected when using that kernel for those releases
<ailo> scott-work, correct
<ailo> Or, I should say, Lucid and Maverick were not meant to work with 2.6.38.
<ailo> On Lucid, there would be a change regarding firewire at least, which the user needs to be aware of, I guess.
<holstein> dammit, are FW users getting the fuzzy end of the lolly-pop again?
<ailo> holstein, falktx proposed to add 2.6.38 -lowlatency for those releases in his PPA
<scott-work> only if you upgrade kernels in maverick and lucid apparently, holstein 
<scott-work> and all the lollipops i've ever bought never had a "fuzzy end" , maybe you need a different supplier :P
<holstein> scott-work: yeah?
<falktx> ailo: holstein: I was using 2.6.38 on lucid and it worked fine (way better than 2.6.32)
 * falktx is now on Natty
<holstein> when your done with it... the stick is 'fuzzy' where the pop was
<ailo> falktx, I haven't had much experience in using a different kernel for a release. I wonder about things like Virtualbox, things that have kernel modules. Will everything work?
<holstein> as long as we make notes
<holstein> virtualizing can *not* be a goal of ubuntustudio i think
<holstein> hosting or guesting for that matter
<falktx> ailo: official VirtualBox releases were working fine. I never tested the full-open variant though
<scott-work> holstein: ahhh, gotcha
<scott-work> i think when -lowlatency 2.6.39 is ready, there will be a substantial number of people testing it
<scott-work> being able to adjust irq prorities being on of the reasons
<ailo> falktx, What's your KXStudio kernel PPA? Is it on your launchpad page?
<scott-work> and hopefully we can get a good comparitive feeling between -generic and -lowlatency
<falktx> ailo: for now I use 2.6.32-preempt as default
<falktx> ailo: I been so f* busy lately that I'm very late on kxstudio stuff
<ailo> falktx, Ah, but you don't have a separate PPA for custom kernels?
<falktx> ailo: yes
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/kernel
<falktx> some notes:
<falktx> rt-33 natty 64bit build failed to compile (broken GCC!!!!)
<falktx> lowlatency-38 only builds on natty for now
<falktx> ^ based on abogani's work
<holstein> gcc got broken back in hardy
<falktx> rt-31 does not work on maverick. still havent tested natty
<holstein> and stayed that way
<holstein> :/
<holstein> sux
<ailo> falktx, I think you've done quite a lot already. I have been busy with other things, but I am eager to look through some things that KXStudio offers. I guess we are all busy with different things.
 * ailo is going running. The goal is 4 minutes per km for longer distances :P
<falktx> ailo: I just wish I had internet at home :(
<raboof> what's with the 'minutes per kilometer' lately - what's wrong with good old km/h?
<ailo> falktx, Isn't there good choices for mobile internet? I have still not tried on LinuxÂ·
<falktx> ailo: I need a job...
<falktx> I was kinda getting into one, but it went wrong
<ailo> raboof, Easier to count. 4 min / km, means 1:20 for 20 km
<raboof> lol
<ailo> raboof, Or easier to measure, when running
<raboof> anyway running is a good idea, i'm off too :)
<scott-work> eh, i keep meaning to respond to ronan's email and keep forgetting :(
<scott-work> ailo: when you get back, give me a ping please, i wanted to ask you about the other pulse stuff to remove and about documentation
<ailo> scott-work, I'm here.
<scott-work> oh, okay :)
<scott-work> i agree with the padevchooser to be removed, what was the other item(s) you were saying should be removed as well?
<ailo> scott-work, At first I thought pavucontrol should be removed, but there is one bit of functionality on it that may be worth while given that we include a volume control, which has almost exactly the same app as "Sound preferences"
<scott-work> ailo: but if we move towards including the indicator applet in the top panel then we could remove pavucontrol as well, right?
<ailo> scott-work, I think that would be reasonable. pavucontrol has at least one bit of functionality extra, which is being able to choose audio card per application
<ailo> But, I'm sure that can be done from the command line, or something.
<ailo> Other than that, it seems identical.
<ailo> scott-work, For the next release, I would like to start a more systematic testing approach where each and every application is tested and reviewed.
<ailo> scott-work, Also, I want to test regurlarly
<scott-work> ailo: yeah, i almost typed up seomthing about "card per application" but stopped since i think all my experience with it was because i had three audio cards
<scott-work> ailo: we have discussed trying to get a small group together to codify testing but it never seems to gel and i can't do it on top of other things i do :P
<ailo> I would at least test the kernel regularly. I want to be able to pick up on changes and try understanding what causes them
<scott-work> which is why i liked ronan's email, it seemed fairly organized and regulated...even just seeing if jack starts may seem trivial but is an important step :)
<ailo> It's very easy to think that because something worked one week ago, there's no need to do that again
<ailo> I'm also interested in pulse-jack.
<scott-work> i'm still pretty ignornat about many things and that is one of them, hence i haven't really pushed this but i think it could be an important functionality
<scott-work> i just don't have time to dive into everything :P
<ailo> At the very least it could be added as an option. And, if something is not included in the main repo, I don't see the problem in letting a script import it from a PPA, like the css script which imports a package from medibuntu
<scott-work> ailo: but about documentation, how do you feel about what i've done so far with rlameiro?
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> i've been thinking that it could be broken down into four large groups:
<scott-work> 1. intro
<scott-work> 2. installing
<scott-work> 3. simple uses (broken into audio, graphics, video)
<scott-work> 4. advanced uses (parsed into a/g/v)
<ailo> scott-work, Haven't read through everything. It seems more like an extensive approach. I was thinking, perhaps it is smarter to first compile every detail one can think of into a whole, then decide what is left in, and also make a quick-guide based on that
<scott-work> i'm still very keen about making some sort of nice, (at least semi-) profession looking introductary videos for people who don't know what ubuntu studio is
<ailo> scott-work, I think those should be easily accessible from the main site
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure i understand your approach as described, can you explain a little more
<scott-work> ailo: yes, i would want at least one, perhaps two (they would need to be supplementary to each other) on the main website page
<ailo> scott-work, Yeah, sorry. I mean, what you started now, seems like an all-inclusive manual, that covers everything. I think we should proceed with that. A manual that covers everything about Ubuntu Studio. Later, we break it down, and decide what to keep and where to keep it
<scott-work> maybe one on the main page, and a couple of others on a dedicated page to explainin gubuntu studio
<scott-work> ailo: ah, yes...that sounds good, but i was also thinking we could parse it out like the ubuntu packaging guide where it's parsed by "chapters" into different wiki pages
<ailo> I guess it depends on what the video is about. If it's just an intro video to Ubuntu Studio, that would seem better placed on the main site
<scott-work> for example:  https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<scott-work> right (re: intro video)  that would be the plan
<scott-work> i would expect an appreciable percentage of people who visit the main page are ignorant about ubuntu studio (need to find a better way to describe them)
<scott-work> and that's where we need to grab them and hit them over the head with sexy, seductive information
<scott-work> "it's free!  did we mention it's free!"
<scott-work> okay, since you don't hate what i've done i'll keep pushing the documentation then :P
<ailo> scott-work, Absolutely. I think we should just add to it as much as possible, and sort it out later
<ailo> Later, I would want to have a "quick-guide" that just in as few words as possible lets a new user start using Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> ailo: i think that is a great idea as well
<ailo> And, I believe -controls will be a big help when it comes to tuning the system. I will include a sound-check for it. 
<scott-work> this would be good for people who, like me, does something and susses it out, say midi, and then tries to do it again several months later, like i did last weekend
<scott-work> but can't remember _exactly_ how it happened before
<ailo> scott-work, Right. It's not fun having to dive deep into the details, when you just want to try it out
<scott-work> ailo: just for clarifcation...
<scott-work> i'm thinking the parts that are already in the wiki (the stuff i basically did) requires some lengthy or perhaps wordy explanations
<scott-work> that is, few pictures or bullet point lists and many words
<scott-work> but the parts where we show how to accomplish say, adding a synth track in qtractor is more line-by-line steps and pictures with fewer descriptive words
<ailo> scott-work, That's the approach I have had too. List the topics first, and then start writing them. I'll need some time to get my English right as well.
<scott-work> eh, your english is quite good
<scott-work> you and alessio and ricardo read and write it better than many of my own countrymen
 * scott-work cries a little inside
<scott-work> i think slang and internet abbreviations are killing literature and writing
<scott-work> and i really don't think americans tend to value education like other countries
<scott-work> but that's besides the point
<scott-work> what i'm getting at, ailo, where does you "quick guide" fall into that dichotomy?  length explanation describing philosophies, followed by succinct step-by-step guides with pictures?
<ailo> Well, I'm not so sure. I think knowledge of language will be more tuned towards content, than anything else. Computers will do so much work for us.
<scott-work> agreed, but i find it amazing (and have great respect for) how you, ricardo, and alessio can converse fluently in multiple languages
<scott-work> it's not something your white, anglo-saxon, protestants do well, mainly due to pride or egocentricity
<ailo> The quick-guide should basically be: One, two, three, four - rock'n'roll. Only information that is needed in order to install, start an application and get sound out.
<scott-work> ailo: okay, so the quick guide would be almost a separate documentation, just extracting the bare minimum to get the job done?
<ailo> I think Alessio should have some credit. Italians don't usually speak English very well
<ailo> scott-work, Exactly. I think the main documentation could be more like a reference, where everything you need is collected, even links to other sites
<ailo> I grew up with two languages, and in Sweden we get a lot of English from our medias.
<ailo> So, I speak three languages + a little German
<ailo> The quick-guide would be much easier, if there was a live DVD
<ailo> scott-work, This way, the user could get some experience very fast.
<scott-work> ailo: ooohhhh, that's a good point
<scott-work> that's a great way to get people interested
<scott-work> i wonder if we could even include the quick guide on the disc
<scott-work> i bet we could
<scott-work> think of it....
<scott-work> person never used ubuntustudio before can boot up live dvd, then follow along with quick-guide tutorial and make mad sounds
<scott-work> without ever touching their harddrive....i would think that would really encourage people
<ailo> Puredyne works pretty well, when that is concerned. Though, recording to disk is another story.
<ailo> It wouldn't be bad to include some sort of demo. A script that starts up multiple apps and plays a song
<ailo> Showcasing a few applications at the same time
 * ailo needs an ergonomic chair...
<scott-work> that would be cool :)  maybe if we get ladish into the repos then that wouldn't be that hard to do as well
<ailo> scott-work, That's another thing I don't know anything about. 
<scott-work> i will probably still need you and rlameiro to help identify (probably as a group) what documentation/tutorials should go under 3. simple uses and 4. advanced uses
<ailo> scott-work, And, another thing I want to improve for next release, the knowledge of all the applications available
<scott-work> my thought is that if we can frame it in and give people a format to easily follow then we might get some help to create the documetnation
<ailo> scott-work, I think holstein would be a good asset there as well
<scott-work> i think that people generally want to help but dont' want to also have to invest time figuring out *how* to help ;)
<scott-work> ailo: ooohhh, yeah, i'll brow-beat him later about this :D
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> yeah, im in
<scott-work> "knowledge of all applications" i choose this year in february to learn some midi during the rpm challenge for this very reason
<scott-work> holstein: sweeet :)
<scott-work> i'm even thinking of doing some quick wiki pages showing people how to do wiki pages!
<scott-work> like how to take a screen shot, crop it, and attach it to the wiki
<scott-work> how to special format some text that would be used often
<scott-work> give people the tools and the defitintive goal so that it only requires their time to accomplish stuff
<scott-work> although i think the 3. simple uses might need a preamble, like "getting sound out of linxu", helping newbies understand the linux audio landscape, specifically pulse and jack
<ailo> scott-work, If we have a system that is very easily tunable. If we have -controls doing quite a lot already, we'll need troubleshooting for when something fails.
<ailo> I'm also thinking about adding a patch to make delta cards work with pulseaudio, which could be added with the users permission from the -controls
<ailo> M-Audio Delta, I mean
<ailo> Trouble shooting could be a few questions, that then give links as answers on different topics
<scott-work> ailo: how would they work differently than they do now?
<ailo> scott-work, You mean m-audio delta cards?
<scott-work> aye
<scott-work> i use a delta 44 and i think i can get sound out of it through pulse
 * scott-work admits that he uses onboard for the majority of non-audio recording audio
<ailo> scott-work, I haven't tried in a while, but from what I've read it's not been possible
<ailo> You need an edit to a alsa config file. ice1712.conf I think it's called
<scott-work> ailo: what would be a use case for this (i ask because i can think of a reason not to do this)
<ailo> A simple addition to that file makes the card usable with Pulseaudio
<ailo> New users have a tough time getting their ice1712 cards to work with pulseaudio. 
<scott-work> why would they want to use pulse with their ice1712 cards?  why not use onboard audio for those activities?
<scott-work> sorry if this sounds snotty, or egalitarian
<ailo> scott-work, Not everyone has onboard audio, and usually people would prefer to use the same card for all tasks, especially if it is a home studio setup, where the card is connected to some nice monitors
<scott-work> okay, i can see that
<ailo> Just the fact, that you can't get sound out, makes people think they aren't supported.
<scott-work> but then some functionality is lost currently, meaning i can route audio through pluse and onboard and i can also route other audio through jack via delta44
<scott-work> not saying this is a deal break, just pointing it out
<ailo> I don't expect that any functionality would be lost
<scott-work> many people may not care, and jack-bridge may be the answer to this "loss "of functionality
<ailo> I would rather the card works just as any other would
<ailo> The only reason why ice1712 doesn't work with pulseaudio is because the alsa config file is not presenting a typical stereo output that PA can read
<ailo> Or something like that
<ailo> It's a very easy fix, but is also a hack.
<ailo> But, it doesn't affect anything. The only thing the fix does is allows the card to be used with PA
<scott-work> ailo: my point is that even if you fix the alsa config so that delta cards work with pulse, then a user would not be able to concurrently route audio through pulse and jack at the same time
<scott-work> i currently can because i use different cards, one for pluse and one for jack
<ailo> That will not change
<ailo> It's up to the user
<ailo> If the user wants, he can use one card for jack and the other for PA
<scott-work> i don't think we can concurrently, i think dbus with either let the card use pulse or jack, but not both
<scott-work> right "he can use one card for jack and the other for pa"
<ailo> Or, use the same card for both, but not at the same time
<scott-work> exactly :)
<scott-work> i don't want to be misunderstood, i think this would be nice to be fixed, anything that makes it "just work" is probably good
<scott-work> i was just pointing out a very niche use case where this would cause a problem
<scott-work> of course, jack-bridge might mitigate this "problem" as well
<ailo> scott-work, I don't understand. I don't see what is changed with fixing the alsa.conf
<scott-work> oh, the change itself isn't necessarily the problem
<ailo> The card will still be usable with jack at the same time as one uses the onboard card with PA
<scott-work> it's user's expectations..."i can route everything through pulse now including my audio recording stuff...oh, why can't i route youtube and my recording together?"
<scott-work> right, but your use case was that a user wanted to use both pulse and jack through the same card with the nice speakers
<ailo> Yeah, but that would only be possible with jack-pulse bridge
<scott-work> yeah, but it's probably a very small use case that most people aren't going to worry about and i probably shouldn't have brought it up ;)
<ailo> scott-work, But that isn't possible even before the fix, without jack-PA bridge
<scott-work> i wonder how we would be able to "fix" this permantly
<scott-work> ailo: with two cards it is
<ailo> You mean, you can route the jack card to PA?
<ailo> Or, the other way around?
<ailo> As things are now, no matter what, without jack-PA bridge, I don't think you can use PA and jack with the same card at the same time
<scott-work> http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/06/wisely-and-slow-they-stumble-that-run.html
<scott-work> i wanted to play a youtube video while playing my guitar
<scott-work> i routed the youtube video through pulse and my onboard audio into computer speakers
<scott-work> i routed my guitar through jack and my delta 44 into studio monitors
<scott-work> it was when they moved to (jack2 i think, and) dbus that allowed this to happen in maverick
<ailo> scott-work, This would not change
<ailo> Allthough, wait..
<ailo> Now that jackd is suspending PA, I don't think you can do this anymore on Natty anyway
<scott-work> but i found i couldn't route both through the same card though
<ailo> On Lucid qjackctl suspends jack, so there you would use jackd from a terminal to achieve this
<scott-work> the pasuspend is in qjacktl and that's how i started jack in maverick so i don't really understand how it happened either
<ailo> scott-work, No, I'm lying.
<scott-work> my delta card is in the computer with lucid on it now, so i can't test this again currently
<ailo> scott-work, On Natty, as well as on Lucid, qjackctl suspends jack
<scott-work> ailo: i dont' think you are the lying type 
<ailo> But, I believe on Maverick it doesn't
<ailo> suspends PA, I mean
<scott-work> oh, i gotcha
<ailo> So, on Natty, if I start my second card using jack, while PA is using my onboard card, it will work, as long as I start jackd from the terminal
<scott-work> that's wierd that it wouldn't do this on maverick, though
<ailo> It will work on Maveric too, even if you use qjackctl ( I think )
<ailo> Because there qjackctl is not stopping PA
<ailo> Anyway, the fix will not change this. I can use any cards like this
<ailo> The only thing that you can't do is use jack and PA on the same card at the same time, without PA-jack bridge, which makes PA a jack client I believe, and therefore PA is not using any card, only giving jack the audio streams
<scott-work> to reiterate: i think it will be a good fix and anything we can make "work out of the box" is probably a good thing
<scott-work> but i wonder how we would be able to make this fix permanent?
<scott-work> maybe we should file a bug about alsa?
<ailo> scott-work, As I understand it, it's like a design issue for alsa
<ailo> There are multiple bug reports on it, and they are more than 3 years old now
<scott-work> but i would imagine there are ubuntu-specific config changes that are already being done, this would just be another one
<scott-work> oh
<scott-work> maybe we should push some people about this then
<ailo> Everyone blamed PA first, but in a way PA is forcing a change in the way the alsa.conf is written. Or, it is not done right. I cannot tell, since I don't know that much more about it
<ailo> Not alsa.conf, ice1712.conf..
<ailo> I'm not sure, but there may be other multi-channel cards affected. At least, I would like to add a fix for ice1712
<scott-work> oh, yeah, i've heard david t. chen and others say the same thing about pulse exposes alsa's warts
<astraljava> Daniel, not David.
<scott-work> ack, yes, my mistake, thank you astraljava  :)
<astraljava> :)
<scott-work> right, i'm going home :)
<ronj> hi holstein
<holstein> ronj: o.
<holstein> o/
<ronj> ScottL mentioned https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2011-April/003021.html that you did some fiddling with usb installs of studio. I'm a tad surprised to hear that installing from usb is not reliable and not really supported, because that's what I've been doing for years. What were your findings?
<holstein> ronj: let me get the bug report i filed
<ronj> yup
<holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/697774
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 697774 in Ubuntu Studio "cant install ubuntustudio from USB stick" [Undecided,New]
<holstein> this is mentioned after my ranting there
<holstein> http://die-klapsmuehle.org/2010/02/21/ubuntu-alternate-von-usb-stick-installieren/
<holstein> i got my information from the ubuntuserver wiki
<ronj> ok thanks, so that means the official usb-creator-gtk is not supported
<holstein> AFAIK the alternate style installers dont work
<holstein> with that or unetbootin
<holstein> they both fail at finding the install media for me
<holstein> ronj: we are talking about the installer
<holstein> and where we want to go
<holstein> IF we go to a live CD
<holstein> then the USB install will be easier
<holstein> as is stands
<ronj> to be precise: I tried to dump a recent version of studio / natty to a usb key through Ubuntu's usb-creator-gtk, in order to do some testing. usually it works like a charm but there it did not
<holstein> i personally put the responsibility on the tool
<holstein> the USB creator
<ronj> i did not try unetbootin
<holstein> its what is not supporting alternate installers
<holstein> unetbootin is not an official ubuntu tool, so that could be ignored
<ronj> "its what is not supporting alternate installers" >> well, it used to work for me till now.....
<ailo> For me unetbootin worked as far as creating the installer, but after installing, not everything had been installed
<holstein> ronj: yeah?
<ronj> yup
<holstein> never worked for me
<holstein> no ubuntustudio
<holstein> no server
<holstein> no alt
<holstein> always failed
<ronj> even did studio natty alpha2 like that
<ronj> weird
<holstein> 32bit version
<ronj> ok
<ronj> yes
<holstein> since 9.10
<ronj> yes
<holstein> ronj: ive been loud about it
<ronj> ?
<holstein> on several occasions ;)
<ronj> oh
<ronj> I'm not always listening as much as I should :P
<holstein> ronj: well, not at you
<holstein> just in here really
<ronj> ok... I'll give it another try and may try to add some meat to your bug or possibly create a new one on usb-creator-gtk
<ronj> thanks holstein ailo 
<ronj> ailo, can you precise "after installing, not everything had been installed"?
<holstein> ronj: please do :)
<ailo> ronj, After installation, I booted into the system, but it just stopped at one point, and the screen went to sleep. Ctl + Alt + Del rebooted.
<ailo> ronj, Then, I used recovery mode, which was no problem
<ailo> ronj, And there, I realized, ubuntustudio-desktop had not been installed, so I installed it
<ailo> ronj, After that, everything was fine
<holstein> w0w
<holstein> thats *wat* better than i ever got
<ronj> ok thanks
<holstein> way*
<ailo> But, I remember from before, I could not even create the installer
<ronj> ailo, could not create the key?
<ronj> you mean
<ailo> ronj, Right. 
<holstein> it would be fine if in the tool documentation it said 'doenst support alternate CDs'
<ronj> which tool? what did it say?
<holstein> OR, if when you had an alernate iso 
<holstein> it would fuss about it
<ronj> holstein, right, that's what i was suggesting: if implementing support for alt cds into usbcreator is too much work, at least warn the user
<holstein> yeah, thats where i think it should be
<holstein> i have other reasons for wanting US to have a live CD
<holstein> and that would just be an added bonus
<holstein> wonder who makes that tool?
<holstein> that should be easy enough to add
<ailo> A live DVD / CD seems to me like the only way to go, really
<holstein> ronj: i have a couple days off here
<holstein> maybe i'll try and grind that axe a bit more :)
<rlameiro> welll sorry for interrupting...
<holstein> rlameiro: o/
<rlameiro> but I was thinking the same problem
<rlameiro> how to deploy an ubuntustudio image....
<rlameiro> for a lot of computers and not Linux versed
<rlameiro> (Universities / Academic)
<holstein> rlameiro: like a net install scenario?
<rlameiro> LiveDVD would be great
<rlameiro> holstein: that would be god on a second base
<rlameiro> but you can do it already wit the alternate install
<holstein> true
<ailo> The only downside with a DVD is that it doesn't cover every scenario, why I think it would be really nice to have a CD as well
<rlameiro> I will give the example
 * holstein BBL
<rlameiro> Composing teacher: Today we will lear how to create an orchestra in supercollider, or a synth.
<rlameiro> please put the DVD on the computer and restart
<rlameiro> go to applications and open this X Appp
<rlameiro> this could be great for academics to strat using linux.... at least on this area
<ailo> rlameiro, It would even better, if one could install onto the live-usb. Like you can with Puredyne
<ailo> I mean, install programs, change settings and so on
<rlameiro> ailo: That would be AWESOME
<ailo> Puredyne already does this, so we could see how they achieve that
<rlameiro> even better if the image has all the MAC drivers
<rlameiro> ailo: I think they create a install and then make it a live cd/usb
<ailo> rlameiro, They have a script, that installs the iso to the usb stick, and when you boot into it, you can add new users, install programs. There is two partitions. One for the image, and the other for saving data
<rlameiro> hummm
<rlameiro> seems easy implementation
<ailo> But, the interesting part is how the iso is created
<ailo> So, it's in two steps
<rlameiro> ailo: what do you think of the script untill now? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos#Objectives:
<rlameiro> do you know rootstock?
<ailo> rlameiro: rootstock?
<rlameiro> ailo: https://launchpad.net/project-rootstock
<rlameiro> its for arm
<rlameiro> you create an root filesystem
<rlameiro> you can add users and seeds at build time
<rlameiro> I am sure there is a similar tool for normal computers
<ailo> Puredyne uses debian-live, but I don't know how that works. Haven't investigated further. 
<ScottL> hi rlameiro and ronj, just go in, will read backscroll in a minute or so
<ailo> One thing that is missing from Ubuntu Studio is giving the user realtime prio right from the start
<ailo> I think..
<rlameiro> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD#Making%20a%20Customised%20LiveCD
<rlameiro> ScottL: hi there :D
<rlameiro> ailo: that would be managed if jack is installed or not?
<ailo> rlameiro, Yes, but user needs to be in audio group too. Don't think this happens automatically. We should add that for creating new users, if possible
<ailo> Probably easier to do on a strictly audio based distro
<ailo> ubuntustudio-settings?
<rlameiro> we could add a startup script to do $dpkg-reconfigure jackd
<ailo> Anyway, the live user must have realtime prio, especially if one cannot save settings, otherwise it's not really fun using the liveDVD
<ailo> rlameiro, I think it must be some kind of default thing, when you add a new user, the user becomes a member of certain groups
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-06
<rlameiro> ailo: I am sure that is possible:D i dont know enough about it, but i am sure that already exists
<rlameiro> like some default policies for creating userd
<rlameiro> users
<ailo> rlameiro, Right. Should not be too hard to add.
<ronj> back, wow there is a lot to read :P
<ScottL> i just had an idea...
<ScottL> it wouldn't be hard to build another version of ubuntu studio with crap loads of things that ubuntu doesn't let us have
<ScottL> after the official iso is released we could rebuild the image (outside of the official buildd system) with the additional apps or drivers or whatnot
<rlameiro> ScottL: I like you more and more every time you talk :D
<ronj> :D
<ScottL> dick macinnis already wants to make a live version of natty after it is released
<ScottL> rlameiro, i already liked you :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: me to, but now even more!!!!
<ScottL> and keep in mind we are already looking at moving towards a live install in the very near future
<ScottL> lol rlameiro :)
 * ScottL is going outside with the kids and dogs for a bit
 * ronj will be pleased to be the witness at ScottL and rlameiro union
<rlameiro> ronj: well, i would love to ply with ScottL some day. 
<ronj> ^^
<rlameiro> at least when i have money to go to the US
<rlameiro> Maybe making 2 songs for the RPM
<rlameiro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr6zHE8HgZ4
<rlameiro> Ubuntu Studio 11.04 BETA 1 First Look Review Overview 
<ScottL> rlameiro, you still around?
<ScottL> i did some more organizing to the tutorial video webpage
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<ScottL> keep in mind not all of these are going to have video tutorials
<ScottL> but they will probably have some sort of documentation
<ScottL> my thoughts were that the (very rough) outline would be...
<ScottL> 1. introduction
<ScottL> 2. installation
<ScottL> 3. simple tasks (audio/visual/graphical)
<ScottL> 4. advanced tasks (a/v/g)
<ScottL> i will need yours and ailo and anyone else's assistance to help decide what needs to be in #3 and #4
<ScottL> i'm not asking everyone to actually do the documentation at this point, just help decide which tasks should be in #3 and #4
<ScottL> once we have the framework then we can worry about who will help create the documentation and who is best suited to do what
<holstein> ScottL: i really like that outline structure by the way
<ScottL> holstein, thanks :)
<ScottL> i feel pretty good about it as well, i really did try to frame things in a way that it was a narrative of me telling a friend that doesn't use ubuntu but is a musician
<ScottL> i felt that this would be a good approach to informing and enticing another musician who isn't familiar with ubuntu to use ubuntu studio
<ScottL> and hopefully give them enough background to help them navigate into linux
<ScottL> i think there is another major consideration we face right now though
<holstein> XFCE ?
<ScottL> lol, well, there is that one too :)
<ScottL> but i meant within the documentation bailiwick
<holstein> yeah, i hear you
<ScottL> whether we want to put the documentation on the canonical wiki or on the new website
<holstein> i think we should try and make sure its mirrored at least
<holstein> like, documentation on the site links directly to canonical
<holstein> or vice-versa
<holstein> sucks when its fragmented
<holstein> and the wikis can be a pain in the ass
<ScottL> but where would the actual content be located?  website or wiki
<holstein> *not just in an ubuntustudio sense
<holstein> all the wikis in general
<holstein> challenging to maintain
<holstein> ScottL: what do you think?
<holstein> im leaning towards site
<holstein> just for control
<ScottL> i wanted to ask kokito to see if the content on the wiki could be read off the wiki and presented on the website
<holstein> AH
<holstein> that would be nice
<holstein> one edit point is a win
<holstein> and plenty to keep up with in our state
<ScottL> but it may not format well with such formating as headers   = This is the Title =
<ScottL> i don't think the equals sign would work well on the drupal website
<holstein> i feel like we have a good team developing
<ScottL> i think there are several benefits to hosting the documentation on the website
<holstein> if we can plan and try and be as future-proof as possible
<ScottL> good point
<holstein> we actually have a lot of relevant documentation though
<holstein> if anything, we have too much documentation id say
<holstein> some of the stuff is not needed anymore
<holstein> which is good
<ScottL> true, some needs to deprecated (which i've done a bit)
<holstein> i mean, ideally
<holstein> its all videos
<holstein> about how to use the software
<holstein> fun, hands-on stuff :)
<holstein> kernel just works
<ScottL> but yes, a lot of it is good for archiving to understand what used to be necessary
<holstein> JACK'll usually just work
<holstein> that'll be nice
<holstein> and i think we are acutally close to that
<holstein> thanks to the awesome upstream trickle down
<ScottL> hosting on the website gives us a better looking format (i really still don't like the wiki's formatting)
<ScottL> we have more control over the content, both in scope and format
<holstein> ScottL: to be honest, the wikis are a drag
<holstein> totally needed and necessary
<holstein> and i get it
<holstein> but still...
<ScottL> it will be in a single source for people to search on the internet, the place where they google "ubuntu studio" will also be where all the information is
<holstein> ScottL: i think a really clear forum is going to be key
<ScottL> we can actually delete pages from the website :P  not like the wiki
<holstein> ScottL: and when people go to help, are they dumped into #ubuntu?
<holstein> could we change that?
<ScottL> i'm not sure what you mean by that
<holstein> to dump them in both #ubuntu and #ubuntustudio ?
<ScottL> do you mean on IRC?
<holstein> yeah, maybe thats not happening anymore
<holstein> ive been using irssi for a couple releases now
<holstein> used to be you'd lauch pidgin or whatever
<ScottL> no, i think when xchat is installed it defaults to #ubuntu for the ubuntu-severs
<holstein> and be dumped in #ubuntu by default
<ScottL> but i have faith we can fix that
<holstein> something for the back burner
<ScottL> i have been aggregating a list of things that would be nice to fix and maybe we can for ocelot
 * ScottL dislikes the new code name for natty+1, too damn hard to spell and type
<ScottL> but hosting on the wiki has advantages as well
<holstein> im looking forward to proud paciderm
<holstein> or whatever
<ScottL> anyone with launchpad account can add or edit content on the wiki
<ScottL> we dont' have to worry about the site itself as far as security, others do that
<ScottL> we don't have to worry about attacks to the site (like DDos), others do that
<ScottL> holstein, keep in mind that formating wiki will probably be as difficult as formating in drupal :P
<holstein> thats true
<ScottL> hosting docs on the website means that we would need to really get people accounts, we would be spending time managing the website way more then
<holstein> ScottL: this is the time to think about it
<ScottL> i can help you holstein with wiki formatting, there are only a few things to have to remember
<holstein> we could just link offically to the wiki's
<holstein> i usually just hit edit
<holstein> on some other page
<holstein> and steal what formatting i need :)
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#User%20Help
<ScottL> holstein, there are some of things i thought about to help users (stochastic even suggested one as well)
<ScottL> holstein, that's where i learned a lot of what i know....and playing around a bit
<ScottL> but usually i dump all the information in first then come back and edit the formatting quite a bit to get it right
<holstein> yeah, thats shaping up nicely :)
<holstein> im trying to remember what was challenging for me
<holstein> other than just getting the firewire device working back then
<ScottL> http://screencasters.heathenx.org/wp-content/videos/ep017/ep017.html
<ScottL> it would cool to have a title screen like this for the ubuntu studio tutorials
<holstein> no flash :)
<ScottL> i don't think that is flash is it?
<ScottL> i thought they did .ogv :/
<holstein> no, i mean, it doesnt require flash 
<holstein> in a good way 
<holstein> and i like it
<ScottL> oh, you were saying for *us* to not use flash
<holstein> yeah, just like they did
<holstein> its just playing in chromium like a champ
<holstein> i like that
<holstein> theres still not a lot of content up like that yet though
<ScottL> it plays well with firefox as well, especially the latest update or firefox4
<ScottL> ginger coons (of libre graphics magazine) made a comment about ubuntu staff vs. others like fedora
<ScottL> she didn't like some of the politics because ubuntu staff doesnt' walk the walk, they use proprietary apps
<ScottL> while fedora uses open source stuff
<holstein> interesting
<holstein> i do like to try and keep an open house
<ScottL> i want to roll like fedora and screencasters
<ScottL> yeah, i plan to use either .ogv or .webm
<ScottL> html 5, baby!
<holstein> it works *so* well too
<holstein> i mean, sometimes i compromise to be open
<ScottL> yeah :/
<holstein> i dont feel like that is a compromise in quality really
<ScottL> and sometimes there isn't a viable open source alternative as well
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> its way better all the time though
<ScottL> oh yeah, i don't feel that either .ogv or .webm is comprimising too be honest
<ScottL> i * think * .ogv is better than some formats like .avi or .mpeg
<ScottL> well not .avi i guess, since i believe it's a container rather than a codec
<ScottL> video is all really, really confusing
<holstein> can be
<ScottL> you can have a .mpeg container with the .mpeg coded (i believe) but also...
<holstein> lots of different formats
<holstein> and containers
<holstein> and crap
<ScottL> a .mpeg container with a h.264 codec
<ScottL> but i'll shoot for either .ogv or .webm though
<ScottL> the trouble i'm having right now is that i'm running svn blender (2.5.6.5) under lucid
<holstein> yeah
<ScottL> which doesn't have the fancy ffmpeg with webm enabled :(
<holstein> im getting that feeling that i should move on from lucid
<ScottL> BUT the new blender is AWESOME!
<rlameiro> ScottL: here now
<ScottL> yeah, me too, i probably will with natty...there are so many updates compared to lucid
<ScottL> rlameiro, oh good ;)  did you read what i said?
<holstein> im going to try and wait it out
<rlameiro> I Like it
<holstein> its so stable now
<holstein> *my system
<rlameiro> just readed it
<ScottL> rlameiro, any thoughts, comments, corrections, suggestions, lottery numbers?
<ScottL> holstein, good point, i do have the -rt kernel on it
<ScottL> and it runs good
<holstein> thats a good kernel
<rlameiro> ScottL: nope, now is just crete content :D
<holstein> im using the newer abogani/falk one
<ScottL> but if i want to do the video i need to have a proper setup, of course i can dedicate a machine to it running natty and keep it away from development
<rlameiro> one thing.... what kind of acees and space does ubuntustudio have?
<rlameiro> for the webpage that is
<ScottL> rlameiro, well, i would like to flesh out more of the tasks we would like to document,  like "setting up jack", "recording audio in ardour" type things
<ScottL> and decide if they are "simple" or "advanced"
<rlameiro> ScottL: that was the idea :D
<ScottL> "acees and space"?
<rlameiro> access and space to webserver...
<rlameiro> for the webpage
<ScottL> oh
<ScottL> well, that's a funny situation
<rlameiro> is it possible to have another mysql db?
<rlameiro> or how does it work?
<rlameiro> who owns the domain?
<rlameiro> etc
<ScottL> to make it a short explanation i would expect us to move to our own hosting
<rlameiro> YAY
<ScottL> that's not definitive, but if things continue the way they have i would expect it to be the best move
<ScottL> this is the way i think it currently works
<ScottL> the website formatting (the drupal) part is contained in a bzr branch
<ScottL> canonical inspects changes to this and uploads it to the webserver (at their leisure i believe)
<rlameiro> ????
<ScottL> not to imply that it takes months and months to upload things
<ScottL> i don't believe anyone has access to that part of the server
<rlameiro> well, are we a comunity distro or not?
<ScottL> i believe that currently stochastic and cory have access to the drupal website to edit content
<ScottL> rlameiro, i think that answer is probably "not really"
<ScottL> as far as making decisions goes, that is
<rlameiro> hummm
<ScottL> i think a lot of "earth shaking" decisions probably happen behind closed doors
<rlameiro> but if we use our own hosting and stuff, do canonical kick us out?
<ScottL> but then again, i believe fedora relies on their community board to make decisions, so it's still not the community directly in those cases
<ScottL> but at least it seems to be transparent or more transparent
<ScottL> rlameiro, i don't think so, i would imagine they would appreciate us hosting ourselves, less work for them
<rlameiro> well, then we need to have the domain also
<rlameiro> as we, ubuntustudio we
<ScottL> not that it's a lot of work currently i would imagine, maybe more of a personal nuisance to whoever has to do it
<ScottL> cory said that canonical owns the domain name, but would point it wherever we wanted
<rlameiro> cool
<ScottL> i can't validate how we knows that, but i trust cory on it
<rlameiro> can we use subdomains?
<rlameiro> like wiki.ubuntustudio.org?
<ailo> I should have tried the latest -generic more than I did. I am unable to reproduce xruns at 64 frames/period at the moment. I't deja vu. Working like it did initially with 2.6.38-1
<ScottL> that's a good question rlameiro , i have no idea
<rlameiro> well, anyway, if that happens i am sure that ubuntustudio will have a boost
<rlameiro> with documentation centralized, showed the way US wants it to be
<rlameiro> and also if there is a respin after the "official" release :D
<ailo> I think ubuntu wiki can do, if the documentation is just better organized
<rlameiro> ubuntustudio - core (official release)
<rlameiro> ubuntustudio - danger (respin)
<ScottL> ailo, interesting :P
<ailo> Can you believe I'm not getting a single xrun with -generic at 64 frames/period
<rlameiro> ailo: interface?
<ailo> This was not the case, just a couple of days ago
<ScottL> ailo, part of me hopes it continues working well, part of me hopes that it bombs for you (so we should pursue -lowlatency)
<ailo> rlameiro, builtin HDA
<rlameiro> ailo: ohhh... not for me then
<ailo> HDA intel
<ailo> rlameiro, Don't think it matters which interface, as long as you don't have some specific hardware issues.
<ScottL> ailo, i've used several dell machines (p4, 2.2 ghz) with onboard sound and gotten very stable 11 msec latencies :)
<rlameiro> ailo: FireWire maters, a lot :D
<ailo> My Sound Blaster card won't work well with any kernel
<ScottL> really?!?!
<rlameiro> and if you have 8 ins and 8 outs running at the same time... well, then we speak hardcore stuff :D
<ScottL> that's what i used for a while before i got my delta
<ailo> It's a very old Sound Blaster card. It doesn't even start at low latency settings
<ScottL> ah
<rlameiro> ailo: soundblaster never had good driver support in linux
<rlameiro> the old ones where to closed by creative
<ailo> rlameiro, I use 12 ins and outs with M-audio delta cards, but those are of course PCI
<ScottL> ailo, rlameiro : i think currently that it would be too much work to put all documentation on the website and probably should just stick with the wiki for now
<rlameiro> ailo: yeah.... its awesome. but with laptops i really need Firewire
<ailo> rlameiro, holstein seems to have no problems with firewire. I would only expect those to have problems, who suffer from irq sharing, no?
<ailo> Which, hopefully, 2.6.39 will redeem
<rlameiro> ScottL: sure. But i dont se why not strating to "clone" sites on the process of reorganizing that ailo mentioned
<ScottL> rlameiro, i like your idea of "ubuntu studio - danger" as a codename
<rlameiro> for instance the jack documentation, when reorganized, cloned it to US-wiki
<rlameiro> ScottL: neat name isnt it :D
<rlameiro> we could try to pull more stuff to that respin
<ScottL> rlameiro, where would you start the "clone" site?  i am presuming you would clone it back to the ubuntu wiki
<rlameiro> maybe we should make sure the server where the respin is, is not on the us :D
<rlameiro> ScottL: for instance, when one pages is worked on ubuntu wiki, after that we clone it to Ubuntu studio wiki
<rlameiro> and maybe embedd some youtube videos showing it working etc
<ScottL> oh, on wiki.ubuntustudio.org to be clone to
<rlameiro> i dont think you can do that on the ubuntu wiki for instance
<ScottL> right
<rlameiro> so basically do it on ubuntu, and the stuff you cant do in ubuntu wiki, well do int in wiki.US.org
<ScottL> the only thing i can think of that would not work well in that case would be the formating done on the wiki
<ScottL> for example, = This is a Heading =    and  == This is a Sub-Heading ==
<ScottL> we would need to manually strip that formating out and reformat however the drupal website needs it
<ScottL> not that this can't be done, but it will not necessarily be automatic
<ailo> rlameiro, Perhaps you will change your mind, if the documentation in the Ubuntu wiki is really nice and organized?
<rlameiro> ScottL: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MoinMoin/Filter
 * ailo is feeling pretty happy with the -generic at the moment. Would be good for others to give it a go as well.
<rlameiro> if the wiki choosen is wikimedia of course
<ailo> holstein, Do you have Natty installed still? Could you give the latest -generic a go?
<holstein> ailo: sure
<holstein> with FW?
<rlameiro> ailo: I dont have nothing agains the ubuntu wiki, dont get me wrong.
<rlameiro> we shouldnt forget theat the wiki is suposed to be a developers tool
<rlameiro> help.ubuntu.com is for helping users
<rlameiro> I think that that line could be crossed in a hipothetical ubuntustudio wiki
<ailo> holstein, Yeah. Don't think a lot of people have been testing the -generic for a while
<rlameiro> holstein: using Texas instruments chipset?>
<holstein> rlameiro: whats my name! :)
<holstein> im hoarding several PCI TI cards
<holstein> ailo: its been a whil
<holstein> e
<holstein> let me run the updates
<rlameiro> humm
<rlameiro> I really need to buy my pcixpress mini card...
<holstein> yeah, i got one of those too
<holstein> manhattan brand
<holstein> with TI
<ailo> Haven't tried Mac or Windows for a while, but I don't think they can get 64 frames/period very easily. I really wouldn't have thought -generic would give us that.
<rlameiro> ailo: they can. well at least they say they can, but not really :D
<rlameiro> they do latency compensation. On mac seems possible. 
<ScottL> rlameiro, another solution would be to use the drupal wiki module as well
<rlameiro> ScottL: its always a solution
<ScottL> ailo, awesome that you are feeling good with it, i need to update my natty install and play with it
<rlameiro> we dont need to clone everything, just the Core stuff, more importnat to new users
<ScottL> i will do that this week, i want to also test some of falktx's stuff
<rlameiro> for the more advanced a pointer to ubuntu wiki should be provided
<ailo> ScottL, It really turns things around, if it is consistent. 
<ScottL> rlameiro, you are correct about wiki.u.c vs. help.u.c
<ScottL> we tend to use wiki as an interchangeable term
<ScottL> incorrectly i should add
<ScottL> i'll go update my natty install as well (instead of playing minecraft)
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> ScottL: you've earned some minecraft time :)
<ailo> Actually, I was trying out -generic 2.6.38-7. I'm updating too now, and the latest is 2.6.38-8
<holstein> w0w 16 frames/period
<holstein> 2 periods buffer
<holstein> thats on lucid
<holstein> with kernel 2.6.33-29-realtime :)
<holstein> says .726 msec
<ailo> holstein, I didn't know that was possible
<holstein> not sure how much i would trust the stability of that running al the time though
<holstein> let mre try running some things...
<holstein> JAMin is the test reall
<holstein> y
<holstein> its *so* heavy
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> yeah, not optimal
<holstein> let me try 64/3 though
<holstein> im opening a decent sized session
<holstein> 7 tracks
<holstein> at 24 44.1
<holstein> with lots of effects
<holstein> and routing through JAMin
<holstein> yeah, this seems stable
<holstein> at 4.3ms
<holstein> kinda
<holstein> i get xruns from the UI
<holstein> switching desktops while its playing
<holstein> :/
<holstein> oh well
<holstein> thats why i have several JACK profiles
<ailo> There are some programs I have noticed are not as reliable with jack
<ailo> I just assume they are not well written, or something
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> JAMin is just heavy
<ailo> Well, pretty much the same deal on 2.6.38-8 for me, using -generic. 2.9 ms latency, 64 frames/period
<ScottL> holstein, yeah, jamin is real heavy
<ScottL> when i was using the old dell p4 i could do everything i wanted basically...except when i was using jamin
<ScottL> it alone at up all the cpu cycles
<ScottL> ailo, good deal (getting the same good performance with 2.6.38-8)
<ScottL> i'm doing partial upgrade on natty right now (after a few minutes of minecraft :P )
<holstein> im still waiting
<holstein> ....
<holstein>  
<ailo> Just the sound of the hard drive, when installing all those programs
<ailo> Hmm, tried starting Hexter. Says: "jack-dssi-host" (No such file or directory)
<holstein> :/
<holstein> im finally about to restart here :)
<holstein> ailo: 2.6.38-8?
<ailo> holstein, Yep
<holstein> -lowlatency right?
<holstein> ailo: ^
<ailo> holstein, I get the same results with -generic. Try that one
<holstein> for some reason
<holstein> i only see 2.6.37-9
<holstein> -generic
<holstein> does that sound right?
<holstein> hmmm
<ailo> holstein, No, should be 2.6.38-8
<holstein> well, let me boot -lowlatency
<holstein> and i'll look into why i didnt get the -generic kernel
<ailo> holstein: Are you dual booting?
<holstein> either installed or added to grub...
<holstein> yeah, but i went out and ran update-grub
<holstein> in lucid
<holstein> that usually gets them
<holstein> this is a confusing tripleboot actually...
<ailo> update-grub should do it, but update-grub2 might be needed too. Should be done on the system that has the grub installed, though
<holstein> well, it addedthat -lowlatency kernel
<holstein> i might not have installed it somehow
<ScottL> is 2.6.38 available for lucid?
<ScottL> might be a pretty ignorant question
<ailo> Apparently, installing hexter will not install one of it's dependencies: dssi-host-jack
<ScottL> ailo, you should file a bug for that, get it put into the control file
<ailo> ScottL, Not in the main repo
<ScottL> oh yeah, you and holstein are getting from falktx's ppa aren't you?
<ailo> ScottL, Not me
<ailo> Anyway, we should not test on another release. Should test on natty
<ScottL> oh...perhaps i misunderstood, what is not in the main repo?
<ailo> ScottL, 2.6.38 for Lucid
<holstein> yeah, not on the test installs
<holstein> just for lucid
<holstein> my maverick and natty are just buntu
<holstein> for testing purposes
<ScottL> ailo, right, that is what i thought :)  (2.6.38 not in the main repo for lucid)
<holstein> ailo: looks great for -lowlatency
<ScottL> ailo, but i can test some tomorrow night on natty
 * ScottL is going upstairs to check on natty updates
<ailo> holstein, I've had pretty much exactly the same results with -lowlatency all along. -generic has been up and down. Right now, it's the same as -lowlatency for me
<holstein> woah, that unity bar
<holstein> the launcher
<holstein> its brutal now
<ailo> Haven't tried that yet
<ailo> holstein, Is it good?
<holstein> i guess thats all opinion
<holstein> its hiding in a really odd way
<holstein> yeah, somehow -generic just got removed
<holstein> the metapackage or whatever
<holstein> im getting it now
<holstein> ailo: you're not a fan of the XFCE idea?
<ailo> holstein, I'm not auto-against it, but I don't think it's pointing towards the future, more so towards the past
<holstein> yeah, it'll start at 16/2 with -generic
<ailo> I think Ubuntu Studio should be on the forefront of technology, but not get crazy with system needs
<holstein> let me try some things at 128/2
<holstein> hmm
<holstein> its xrunning
<holstein> not as nice as -lowlatency was
<holstein> i cant get by with letting it run at 128/2
<holstein> without xruns :/
<holstein> oh well
<ailo> holstein: With firewire?
<holstein> yup
<holstein> in my setup
<ailo> I think 128/2 is pretty good
<holstein> im noticing -lowlatency being quite stable
<holstein> but -generic not really doing the job
<ailo> How about 64/2?
<holstein> nah
<holstein> same deal really
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> xrun right off the bat
<holstein> as long as i dont do *anything*
<ailo> holstein, So you get xruns at 128/2? I must have misunderstood
<holstein> its stable
<holstein> ailo: with -generic
<holstein> with the -lowlatency
<holstein> that seems usealbe
<holstein> useable*
<ailo> Well, let's hope 2.6.39 will be better.
<holstein> hey, i found the system setting :)
<holstein> unity is a lot like KDE for me right now
<holstein> i cant find anything
<holstein> and the UI is odd ;)
<holstein> they still got time
<holstein> its coming along great i think
<holstein> its just not for me at all
<holstein> ailo: what are your ideas for US UI ?
<ailo> holstein, I just tried Gnome 3 a bit. Coming out today, my time
<ailo> holstein, I think it's virtually the same as Gnome2, but with a different panel system
<ailo> Maybe it will get some getting used to, using the UI differently. The UI is probably adapted to a wider range of hardware.
<ailo> Like touch screens
<holstein> ailo: on lucid?
<holstein> did you add a ppa?
<holstein> i like gnome
<ailo> Gnome3 and Unity are young. They need to be tested and tried, and developed. For US, I think XFCE could be a nice transition
<holstein> i think the idea is that xfce would be nice and light
<holstein> but still theme-able
<holstein> and modern feeling
<holstein> and maybe the teams could colaborate a bit
<ailo> Well, I don't feel it is as modern as it is light
<ailo> Light is good
<ailo> But, there are other systems that can be lighter than Ubuntu Studio. I don't think that should be the goal
<holstein> i dont find it as bare-bones as LXDE
<holstein> rather gnome-like in feel
<ailo> I think the goal should be a stable, modern system. 
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> ailo: you think KDE?
<holstein> like KXstudio?
<ailo> Puredyne uses XFCE. It works really well, but I'd much rather use Gnome
<ailo> holstein, Personally, I don't like KDE much better. 
<holstein> yeah, i dont like it either
<holstein> but i have to say
<holstein> i think KDE4 is the most modern looking and feeling UI
<ailo> holstein, I agree, that it looks modern, but I don't feel the functionality is really that much more modern
<ailo> The widgets, I don't like
<holstein> i dont like the idea of them
<holstein> they look slick
<holstein> ailo: there is something to be said for being a gnome3 shop
<holstein> if folks are looking for gnome + ubuntu
<holstein> and we have that
<holstein> that would get a lot of folks to install US
<holstein> just for taht reason
<ailo> Fedora is going for Gnome3 with their next release
<ailo> I would assume, Debian will too, but that will take some time
<Kokito> howdy
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<Kokito> hey holstein 
<holstein> ailo: as long as gnome3 is in the ubuntu repos
<holstein> and is maintained
<holstein> which, i would assume it will be
<holstein> ailo: is unity out of the question?
<holstein> we should probably think about that
<ailo> holstein, I haven't yet use Unity enough.
<ailo> holstein, If Unity works well, why not, I think
<Kokito> I played with Unity a bit the other day, and I kind of liked it. there will be a learning curve, though
<holstein> would be the path of least resistance i suppose
<ailo> holstein, Either way, ubuntustudio-desktop will need some work
<ailo> I think one of the reasons to go for XFCE was the possibility to get some more help
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> more help
<holstein> and stability
<holstein> less drastic changes
<holstein> and xubuntu aint going anywhere
<ailo> Gnome3 will probably not change too much, too fast, so there would only be a lot of work needed initially. Unity might change more rapidly.
<ailo> Just guessing
<holstein> sounds about right
<ailo> Either we decide we can do the work during next release, if we choose to use one of those, or we take what could be an easier route with XFCE, and wait with deciding on Gnome3 or Unity. 
<holstein> yeah, maybe we could talk about how long the XFCE thing would be
<ailo> There might be other problems too. I have a problem with nouveau drivers on one of my computers
<holstein> if we could just try it for 11.10
<ailo> Gnome3 starts on it, but I get corrupted graphics
<ailo> Could be a lot of that initially. It's not fun for a lot of users, if they get bugs like that
<holstein> well, im not opposed to looking at gnome3
<holstein> but, so far, i really like the idea of XFCE
<holstein> for lightness
<holstein> and customization
<holstein> and the extra help we could be getting
<holstein> i gotta crash
<holstein> GN all..
<Kokito> gn holstein 
<ailo> abogani: It would seem that -generic is working quite well again, but I asked holstein to try it with his firewire device. According to him, he gets a lot better performance from -lowlatency.
<ailo> On an updated system, like mine
<abogani> ailo: ack
<scott-work> ailo: ralf talks about having posted to the mailing list his tests for the kernel: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2011-April/007437.html
<scott-work> i thought you might be interested in that
<scott-work> ailo: also, i thought if this will have awake this morning in bed before my alarm went off...
<scott-work> we should probably include a troubleshooting section ofthe documetnation for the most common problems (like you mentioned before)
<scott-work> so maybe   1. intro
<scott-work> 2. instal
<scott-work> 3 simple tasks
<scott-work> 4 advanced tasks
<scott-work> 5. troubleshooting
<scott-work> although i would like to find a better way to parse between all the common tasks in a/v/g than just the "3. simple tasks" and "4. advanced tasks"
<scott-work> i would like to find something a little more elegant and instructional
<ailo> scott-work, I don't think we need to include all that many tasks. I think it's enough with one or two typical examples for audio, the same for graphics and video.
<ailo> It would be great to have a demo for those too
<ailo> Or, videos as you have planned
<ailo> I don't see a difference between simple and advanced tasks. 
<ailo> More, for a rock song I would do this, for an electronica song I would do that
<ailo> Or, to create icons, I might use Inskape, and so on
<scott-work> you're right, i probably need to splend some time in front of a dry-erase board and list what i think should be in there and then see what the organization fits them
<scott-work> i also realized this morning in bed that i should be followign the workflows :P
<scott-work> that shoudl help quite a bit
<ailo> scott-work, We don't need to include too much reference on single programs, like Ardour and Qtractor. We can add links to documentation on those. We do however need to explain how to set up the system manually, I think, even if it isn't necessary, just as reference.
<scott-work> hmmm, maybe we should add manual setup to either installing or add another section for setup then
<scott-work> ailo: i absolutely agree this should be included even if it is automated - having that reference could be hugely important later on if something changes
<ailo> Jack needs explanation of course.
<ailo> scott-work, About ralphs tests, it seems they were made a long time ago, and would not be relevant today
<scott-work> oh :(  okay..
<scott-work> maybe the "setup" part could be an appendix (don't know, just talking out loud)
<abogani> ailo: IMHO You are wasting your time.
<abogani> about ralf I meant.
<ailo> abogani, About -lowlatency?
<abogani> No about Ralf.
<ailo> Perhaps Ralf will change his mind with 2.6.39 :P. Would be nice if more people were testing the kernels.
<ailo> scott-work, The less we need to inform the user, the better, right?
<scott-work> abogani: lol :)
 * scott-work really did LOL
<scott-work> abogani: ralf seems knowledgeable, but he also seems a little like he has suffered some injury by the universe and is slightly either angry or paranoid that we don't all do exactly what he says or thinks like him
<scott-work> but that is just my opinion (for what it is worth) based on reading a fraction of his emails on the list
 * abogani agrees
<scott-work> for the number of problems ralf reports i wonder what kind of hardware he is using
<scott-work> maybe not the "number of problems" but perhaps the "severity of problems"
<abogani> very graves I think if only ps2 mouse movement can interfere on his computer performance. 
<scott-work> abogani:  agreed
<ailo> scott-work, For every creative task, I think there's basic things and then more and more advanced topics. For example, recording a rock song. First things first, how to record. The deeper you get into the production, the more advanced it gets. Changing tempos, using effects..
<ailo> scott-work, Finally, you can get into things like bitrate and samplerate and things like that.
<ailo> Just understanding a compressor may not be easy for a beginner, but again, that may not be something we need to teach the user
<ailo> But, we can always provide links to every topic we can think of
<scott-work> sure (links), i think that is a good idea :)
<scott-work> i believe we will need to keep a clear eye on what we consider the purpose of this documention....
<scott-work> is it to teach others to use ubuntu studio or is it to teach others how to record music
<scott-work> where do things like compressors fall into those categories?
<scott-work> we should certainly educate users on how to add plugins
<scott-work> do we want to explain how compressors work?
<ailo> scott-work, I think it's a nice idea to include examples on how to use Ubuntu Studio. I like that, it's a very quick way to show what you can do with it. But, perhaps we don't need to dive that deep with every example
<scott-work> should we give some example settings for a typical compressor for vocals, or acoustic guitar?
<scott-work> i'm certainly not against linking to a good explanation for compressor if we know of one
<scott-work> but i also know it's easy to get sucked into trying to explain everything as well :P
<ailo> scott-work, I wouldn't want to spend time on things like that tbh. Rather, I would give a link to somewhere where audio production is a topic
<ailo> scott-work, I think the key is, try spending time on those things that are Ubuntu Studio specific, and try using other resources as much as possible for those things, that aren't
<scott-work> ailo: agreed :)
<ailo> But, I do think giving some examples on how to do different things is a great idea
<scott-work> i would really like to do that as well, along with some typical settings for plugins
<scott-work> i haven't liked some of the "help" i've received for these things, which is usually "play with it and use the settings you like"
<scott-work> and i say that i dont' like it because there are hundreds of plugins for hundreds of purposes and each one has hundreds of settings
<scott-work> i can't possibly play with enough, contiguously enough, to really wrap my head around it
<scott-work> it's like eating a whale, you can't do it all at once or really even comprehend what all is involved
<scott-work> you need to do it one bite at a time
<ailo> scott-work, Audio engineering is a very big topic, I think. I've spent quite a lot of time studying and reading as well as recording and mixing. It takes a lot of time to learn it
<scott-work> so if a typical setting for a compressor for vocals can be made available as a starting point, then that makes the proccess so muche easier
<ailo> When I started out, around 2001-2002, there wasn't all that much to find tutorial wise on the net at the time. I'm sure the situation has improved.
<scott-work> ailo: i bought a book (well, a couple) that have helped somewhat, although i need to reread and apply some of the stuff i've read and learned
<scott-work> i'd say that fault lies more with me than the books in this instance ;)
<scott-work> ailo: i'm sure it has, but i haven't look on the net in a while for these items
<ailo> scott-work, Often they start explaining too much in detail, before you get to use and experience some settings first
<scott-work> ailo: and i've often found that there is too much information if you are not using it in a practical way, day to day
<ailo> scott-work, Also, just getting used to hearing things takes a lot of time, at least it did for me
<scott-work> ailo:  absolutely
<ailo> scott-work, I like practical. I like detailed reference too, but I always want to try some examples first
<scott-work> i have had a few, small breakthroughs with some things like how reverd or delay can make the vocals sit in front of the music, in it, or behind it
<scott-work> but the main thing was that i was completely ignorant that reverb or delay could even do that!
<scott-work> i still dont' know how it all works thoroughly
<ailo> scott-work, Also, by eq'ing the reverb or delay, you can make it blend in more. Take away some of the top, so it won't sound as near as the main signal
<scott-work> heh, eq is so subjective that i don't even want to consider doing it :P
<scott-work> in this case, i'm extremely like you, i want some practical experience or a really good tutorial to say, move this fader to 10khz, notice how the sound changed ?
<ailo> Yes, and not only that, but why you want it to change
<ailo> EQ: add punch to a bass or bass drum, by adding gain at 50-80 Hz, take away some muddy bass from around 150-300 Hz, add bass plectrum sound at 3000 Hz, add the click to the kick at 3000-5000 and perhaps some presence at the highes frequencies.
<ailo> I think there 's a lot of that type of info these days.
<ailo> scott-work, I wonder from where abogani gets the source in the first place, before he patches it and uploads it..
<ailo> I believe this is the main source for Ubuntu next release http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-oneiric.git;a=summary
<scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure, but my understanding is that it is directly from ubuntu
<scott-work> ailo:  so i would presume the source you found may be it
<ailo> scott-work_, So, I was going through what you wrote up. I'm a little puzzled by the last bit
<scott-work_> ailo: which part?
<ailo> cd ..
<ailo> ls (verify .changes name)
<ailo> dput ppa:<username>/<ppaname> <packagename.changes>
<scott-work_> oh, the kernel stuff
<ailo> cd to the main folder?
<scott-work_> hold on...let me me look
<ailo> I'm trying out 2.6.39 kernel, without aboganis patch, just for fun
<scott-work_> okay, to run debuild you need to be in the source directory
<scott-work_> but
<scott-work_> to find the .changes file you need to be one directory UP
<scott-work_> hence the cd ..
<scott-work_> that pulls you out of the source directory back to whatever directory you stored all this mess in
<scott-work_> i like to "ls" to see what files are there
<scott-work_> you may have run this multiple times and might have multiple .changes files
<scott-work_> you want to verify that you are sending the correct one to your ppa
<ailo> Right. I think I see it now
<scott-work_> also, i like to copy the correct name by highlighting and right click/copy so this reduces the clutter of file names to sort through
<ailo> linux_2.6.39-0_source.changes
<scott-work_> oh good :)
<ailo> That should be what I upload, right?
<scott-work_> yes
<scott-work_> i think this is a part of packaging and building that people have trouble understanding
<scott-work_> you are not uploading the entire file again
<scott-work_> you are only uploaded any differences (or delta) in your file compared to the original file
<ailo> I see
<scott-work_> which is why everyone gets so wonky (rightly so) about the orig.tar.gz files
<ailo> So, in launchpad, all of the Ubuntu source is already there?
<scott-work_> if you dont' start with the same base original file the diffs get mad crazy
<scott-work_> ailo: i presume so if you started with alessio's work
<ailo> I'm just trying the main kernel source for now. I will try to find out how to patch it later
<scott-work_> ailo: then i would certainly presume the original source file is there :)
<scott-work_> but i think dput is pretty smart  (or launchpad is) because i think it wille even upload the source in some cases
<ailo> This will be my first upload to my PPA. Maybe not such a good idea to upload that kernel yet. Don't think I will install it on my system anyway
<scott-work_> although i'm not exactly sure which cases it might or might not
<scott-work_> ailo: you can always make another ppa for testing
<ailo> It's called testing, so hopefully people realize that
<scott-work_> i took abogani 's advice and made one called "broken" to actively discourage people from using it
<ailo> That's a good name for a PPA
<ailo> scott-work_, Hmm, I wonder if it was a good idea to change the name of the version, like you suggest on your scratchpad.
<scott-work_> ailo: do you mean removing "-ubuntu1"?
<ailo> scott-work_, Yes
<ailo> scott-work_, Does it take a while, before the building starts? I see it as pending at the moment
<ailo> https://launchpad.net/~ailo.at/+archive/testing/+packages
<scott-work_> alessio was quite emphatic about change the version, he mentioned it to me several times
<scott-work_> ailo: yes, the build times are dependent on several factors, including what else is in the queue and what importance you stuff has to others
<scott-work_> if the queue is already full, you have to wait
<scott-work_> if you are almost ready to build (by time) but a security build with more importance comes through, you will end up waiting
<scott-work_> i've had less than an hour to build then came back and found out i was days out from building because other stuff was apparently pushed in front of me
<ailo> scott-work_, I see. They score the builds.
<scott-work_> https://launchpad.net/~ailo.at/+archive/testing/+buildjob/2431896  look for the build score
<scott-work_> doh
<ailo> Well, I can wait
<scott-work_> what's weird is that i don't see an estimated start time though :/
<scott-work_> usually it says "15 minutes" or "2 hours" or "April 7"
<ailo> scott-work_, rncbc was testing the kernel before and said that the rtirq script worked out of the box
<scott-work_> sweet :)
<ailo> But, I don't know exactly what that means. Hopefully it's enough just to install the script
<ailo> scott-work_, I added the bug I mentioned yesterday about Hexter. http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hexter/+bug/752950
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 752950 in hexter (Ubuntu) "Dependency listed wrongfully as Suggest" [Undecided,New]
<ailo> I noticed that people sometimes want someone to confirm the bug
<scott-work_> the only natty install i have is ubuntu studio which already has hexter and the dssi thingie as well
<scott-work_> i can try removing both and see what happens and then report this in the bug
<scott-work_> (and then reinstall both)
<ailo> scott-work_, Uninstall both, and then just install hexter. 
<scott-work_> aye
<scott-work_> going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-07
<ScottL> ailo, i uninstalled hexter and jack-dssi-host
<ScottL> then i reinstalled hexter
<ScottL> jack-dssi-host was not installed then
<ScottL> i was able to run qtractor, insert hexter as a plugin, and get sound out of it without jack-dssi-host :/
<ailo> ScottL, This is the launch command from the menu: jack-dssi-host hexter.so
<ailo> So, since it is a plugin, it will only work with a host, but the menu starter requires jack-dssi-host
<ScottL> ah, going back upstairs to check this out
<ailo> I think it makes sense that jack-dssi-host should be installed, since the menu launcher requires it.
<ailo> It's sort of the standalone version
<ailo> When people install only hexter and try to start it from the menu, they will think it's broken
<holstein> ailo: i used to think that about all the stuff in ubuntustudio ;)
<ailo> As many do anyway, because they don't realize jack must be started first, but that's another issue :)
<ailo> holstein, It's too bad that there is no popup from programs telling the user when jack's not running. Probably tough to implement system-wide.
<holstein> ailo: i dont know why that cant be upstream though
<holstein> in debian
<holstein> for all the apps that require JACK
<holstein> when JACK aint running
<holstein> instead of barfing
<holstein> just a little note 
<ailo> It would make things a lot easier for sure
<holstein> more clear
<holstein> with IRC though
<holstein> its easier
<holstein> before that
<holstein> it literally took me years to get around to understanding what JACK did
<ailo> Ooh, I spent a lot of time googling. And went through many distros and setups before I started getting things
<holstein> 64studio was the first one that worked for me
<holstein> for audio
<holstein> they had a live disc
<ScottL> okay ailo, i agree with you :)
<holstein> and jack started
<ScottL> but how are you supposed to use hexter as a stand alone
<ailo> ScottL, Have you tried it? Make sure jack is running and jack-dssi-host is installed, and start it from the menu
<ailo> holstein, I skipped that one for some reason. I went between Ubuntu Studio and Fedora for a while
<ScottL> ailo, i did, it runs, i made sounds with it
<ScottL> ailo, but what is the use case, how do i control it?
<ScottL> without it being a plugin?
<holstein> i never got the hang of yum
<holstein> or yast
<ailo> ScottL, You need a keyboard to play it, or connect a sequencer's midi out to it
<ailo> holstein, yum was terribly slow, I felt
<holstein> last time i had a fedora install
<holstein> f12 i think
<ailo> ScottL, Try vkeybd
<holstein> it was still slow
<ailo> ScottL, And connect through alsa midi tab
<ailo> holstein, I went from Fedora to CentOS later, which is a clone of Red Hat more or less
<ailo> holstein, I quit once two of my hard disks died at once. Not sure, but could be because of my hardware + Planet CCRMA's -rt kernel
<ScottL> ailo, okay, i get it now, i'll update the bug in a bit
<ScottL> i just wanted to make sure there was a reason to fix it
<ailo> ScottL, of course.
<ailo> ScottL, The only reason I think it makes sense to install the jack host is because of the menu launcher.
<ailo> holstein, That is also when I started disliking -rt a bit. I started to get the experimental bit of it
<ailo> But, I was using pretty old hardware. P3 and one of the first AMD sempron's
<ailo> One of my problems was I couldn't shut down the system at all
<ailo> So, -lowlatency I do prefer over things like that
<ailo> btw, my kernel build failed. I must need a slightly different procedure. I'll work it out another day.
<ScottL> ailo, would you like me to help you make a patch for hexter?
<ScottL> i don't believe you would have any significant problems doing it
<ScottL> i updated the bug by the way
<ailo> ScottL, Sure. But, I don't know how to do it.
<ScottL> ailo, no problem, tomorrow during the day i will post instructions for you
<ScottL> i expect this to be a great teachable moment :)
<ailo> ScottL, Great. I hope to have some use for that later on.
<ScottL> ailo, to make the patch you will need to download the current code, then make the change which will involve learning about the control file, then create the diff, and then attach the diff to the bug
<ScottL> lots of good things in there that will benefit you in other areas like packaging
<ailo> ScottL, I think I understand the concept. I will just need to learn about each step and which tools to use, and so on
<ailo> ScottL: I suppose all I need to do is edit the control file to make the jack host a dependency, use dch to create the changelog, and then make a diff and a patch from that diff. Seems like it shouldn't be too many steps
<ScottL> ailo, you got it :)
<ScottL> the only thing i would clarify is that you would use dch to update the changelog, as it already exists
 * abogani waves all
<abogani> ailo: ping
<abogani> 1) I really impressive from the good sense and the balance you show in your replies like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2011-April/007442.html
<abogani> 2) Could you test this https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/snmp++/+packages , please?
<abogani> I'm work and I can't test it for next 10 hours at least.
<abogani> .
<abogani> Good morning to all! Here in Italy today is a shiny day!
<abogani> ailo: I forgot to mention that the 2.6.39-lowlatency kernel is irq-threaded by default so there isn't need to pass the "threadirqs" kernel parameter at Grub menu. Moreover I have added a new kernel parameter for disable it (that is "nothreadirqs").
<abogani> ailo: As you already know You should install rtirq-init to let it adjust priorities.
<abogani> ScottL: ^
<abogani> Please keep in mind that we _have_to_ choose a only one version for -lowlatency kernel (that is 2.6.38 *or* 2.6.39).
<abogani> ScottL: ^^
<abogani> I'm disappointed that falkt doesn't provide back his works on -realtime correlate packages (like nvidia drivers).
<abogani> ScottL: ^^^
<ailo> abogani, We have a little sunlight here too and it's just about spring here. Trying out your kernel..
<ailo> I'm doing 32 frames/period with the 2.6.39 -lowlatency and the rtirq-init script with no xruns. 
<ailo> 1.45 ms latency
<ailo> I can even start at 16 frames/period, but my onboard sound-card can't take that. I get more than 200 xruns a second. 32 frames/period is fine
<abogani> ailo: Sorry I don't remember numbers for 2.6.38-lowlatency. Which works better?
<ailo> abogani, I need to test more, but so far, I can lower the frames/period by half on 2.6.39
<abogani> ailo: impressive
<ailo> Hopefully there are no random xruns. I will try to get some.
<abogani> ailo: Ok
<ailo> abogani, I don't seem to get xruns like I did with 2.6.38, but when I uncompress a file, I will get a couple.
<ailo> On 2.6.38 it was just a matter of time, every 2 minutes or so.
<abogani> ailo: So 39 is better?
<abogani> ailo: by the way Are you using one of evil video closed drivers?
<abogani> ailo: by the way Are you using one of evil video closed drivers?
<ailo> abogani, I was not able to install nvidia-current.
<abogani> ailo: 39? 38? or both?
<ailo> Only 39
<ScottL> abogani, i think we the answer for kernel version is 2.6.39 for -lowtlatency, i expect it would be stable by the time we release ocelot and it has the benefit of irq-threading as you mention
<ScottL> abogani, i can talk to falk about providing his work, but couldn't we also take the source from his ppa?
<ailo> ScottL, I'm sure it will be long before that. Maybe the kernel for Ocelot will be a higher version. But, we need to test the -generic as well
<ailo> vlc is not to be recommended with jack, though. Had it playing while I did other things. It doesn't give xruns, but the sound will sometimes get crackled. I know from a few years ago, vlc could sound like a tape recorder, that started slowly. Very strange behaviour from a software audio player
<ailo> abogani, It was some time ago now, but I tried a test where I used pd to flood the cpu in non realtime more on both cpu's. No xruns. Now, the two pd processes behave differently, and I get xruns when flooding the cpu, though only a couple. 
<ailo> I never tried compiling, or uncompressing/compressing with 2.6.38. I will try that later to see the difference
<abogani> ailo: Ok.
<abogani> Tonight I'll investigate about nvidia-current.
<abogani> ailo: ^
<ailo> abogani, It looks very promising. Interesting to see if -generic can deliver as well.
<abogani> ailo: Could you give me the rtirq's output, please?
 * abogani doesn't like rtirq...
<ailo> abogani, How was it I did that?
<ailo> Bad news. I get a few odd xruns, even when there's not much going on.
<abogani> ailo: I suppose grepping in /var/log/: sudo grep -ri priorities /var/log/
<abogani> ailo: :-(
<ailo> abogani, http://paste.ubuntu.com/590738/
<abogani> ailo: rtirq is stupid.
<ailo> abogani, Not the right devices get prio?
 * ailo needs to walk the dog and will come back later
<abogani> ailo: good walk
<holstein> ailo: so, 3d is not really optional for gnome3?
<holstein> i mean, i guess that is how to move forward
<holstein> to utilize that technology
<holstein> and make things look slick
<holstein> if the heavy lifting is off on the GPU
<holstein> then why not
<falktx> gnome3 is still F*** ugly
<holstein> falktx: lol
<ailo> holstein, You need video acceleration, so not really 3d, but still, you need drivers. I think it's 2d acceleration
<ailo> falktx, I'
<holstein> ailo: i think that could be a deal breaker
<ailo> I'm surprised they haven't been working on the looks that much
<holstein> we should talk about that though
<falktx> unity 3x better than gnome3
<holstein> ubuntustudio has never really been that low-resource distro
<ailo> holstein, Well, in the past, I would say yes
<ailo> I can see how Gnome3 will become a good system. It needs to be tweakable.
<ailo> holstein, I think the problem is that open source graphic drivers aren't better yet.
<falktx> ailo: gnome3 has the same issues has kde4.0, it's just too new (and probably unstable)
<holstein> i dont think we can depend on them
<holstein> *drivers
<holstein> unity added the 2d version
<holstein> and i thought that was a good call
<falktx> holstein: hehe, unity2d uses Qt, not gtk...
<falktx> quite a weird call there I think
<holstein> falktx: im just glad its not required
<ailo> falktx, Maybe not. They are moving on to Wayland as well, as will Gnome3 later on. 
<scott-work> falktx: i tried the fedora gnome 3 live disc several days ago and thought it looked pretty good
<holstein> for those that dont have good driver support for their hardware
<ailo> holstein, I think most systems are supported, but there are still a few that are not
<ailo> My onboard nvidia 7025 is not working very well, for instance, but my pci Express 7300 is
<ailo> Both nvidia
<scott-work> ailo: "ailo	Bad news. I get a few odd xruns, even when there's not much going on."   which kernel was this for?
<ailo> scott-work, 2.6.39. 
<scott-work> ailo: -generic or -lowlatency?
<ailo> scott-work, aboganis -lowlatency. 
<scott-work> falktx: is there some way that we (ubuntu studio team) can use some of your video drivers?
 * holstein gotta run
<holstein> l8r folkz
<ailo> Hard to say if the xruns occur randomly, since now I'm getting xruns from things I didn't before, however, I can also get lower latencies
<ailo> Also, I've noticed that jackd does not always get control of the sound card right away. Now, jackd crashed and made qjackctl freeze. Often I have to start jackd 2 times before it starts
<ailo> Also, trying to mess with PA while jackd is running can crash something
<falktx> ailo: r u using jack2?
<ailo> falktx, No I wasn't. You think that makes a difference?
<falktx> ailo: yes
<falktx> ailo: for PA and jack to work together, you need jack2
<ailo> falktx, I will try with jackd2 then
<ailo> falktx, I'm not using any bridge.
<falktx> i know
<falktx> ailo: jack2 stops PA while starting (if possible)
<ailo> Ah, it does? That's too bad
<falktx> ailo: when jack2 is stopped, PA gets re-started
<ailo> falktx, I would rather qjackctl does that, which it does
<ailo> falktx, Makes it impossible to run PA and jackd at the same time, which I sometimes do
<ailo> With different cards
<falktx> ailo: just use my script
<falktx> oh, different cards...
<ailo> I'm getting different results with 2.6.38 than I did before too. This is no fun :(
<ailo> I don't know. The latest kernel seems to give me lower latencies, but I'm still not getting more reliable performance.
<abogani> ailo: You should compare the worst case not the best one.
<abogani> Perhaps we should let someone firewire user do the tests...
<ailo> abogani, Absolutely. That would be the greatest benefit anyway
<ailo> holstein, ronj, autostatic are the ones I know have them, but I don't know who has irq share problems. Perhaps holstein could arrange to give himself a problem
<ailo> abogani, At a little higher latency, which is really all I think anyone would need (under 10 ms), it seems very stable. But, it's hard to know, if it will be stable days and months in a row. But, that is perhaps too much to ask :). So, if firewire works with this, I think there's no questions this is a very good kernel.
<ailo> I will need to test on other cards too. I've been doing all these tests on a onboard card, which is not meant for pro audio anyway.
<holstein> ailo abogani i have a test machine i coule 'break' or whatever
<holstein> if you guys help me with the how-too's
<holstein> i'll be in and out today
<holstein> i could probably make time to test something over the weekend
<holstein> or late nite for me
<ailo> holstein, The best thing would be if you have an irq share problem. I wouldn't want you to test on a machine that you are afraid to break. I had a system freeze myself once already.
<ailo> holstein, But, I assume you don't have any irq problems on any system?
<holstein> ailo: not with FW
<holstein> with usb i do
<holstein> but i dont think that helps
<ailo> holstein, You usually get bad performance from the usb device?
<holstein> ailo: depends
<holstein> i had* one that was just horrible
<holstein> there were like 8 things on one IRQ
<ailo> holstein, That sounds like a dream situations
<ailo> situation*
<holstein> hehe
<scott-work_> ailo: this video shows that you are right about gnom3 and single app focus:  http://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop#p/u/4/bRHAio98n-g
<scott-work_> and here is some good window management items:  http://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop#p/u/5/Ip9Bgjaspjs
<scott-work_> gnome3 might not be so bad after all :P
<ailo> scott-work, I was just about to paste that :)
<ailo> scott-work_, The panel is gone, and the menu system is different, but overall, window management, and just working with programs should not be any different
<ailo> A little different maybe
<scott-work_> ailo: i'm sorely tempted to find time to install vanilla ubuntu, add the gnome3 ppa, and then install studio apps and see how it does
<scott-work_> maybe even record some of the things with gtk-recordmydesktop to show people
<ailo> scott-work_, We should at least try it, I think. The main problem I see is if graphic cards are not supported, but hopefully they will keep a fallback option until they are sure practically every system will work with it
<ailo> Also, it's interesting to see what kind of a performance difference there is, or if it takes much more memory and so on.
<ailo> Ok. Time to start testing with m-audio now. Hopefully it's much more stable :P
<ailo> scott-work_, Actually I got corrupted graphics from installing Ubuntu Studio Natty as well, now that I think of it. I need to install nvidia drivers in order for it to work. Updating now, so let's see if I can do without nvidia drivers first
<ailo> Yes, it's working without drivers.
<holstein> w0w
<holstein> gnome3 has keyboard shortcuts to switch between workspaces
<holstein> im not clear on how that can be listed as a *new* feature
<holstein> but whatever
 * ckontros waves
<ailo> abogani: On my other system, I get worse performance with 2.6.39, while 2.6.38 is the same
<ailo> What's up ckontros?
<ckontros> Just got home from work. Gonna write some Studio emails regarding the switch the the XFCE desktop.
<ailo> ckontros, Have we definitely decided yet? I would like to wait a little.
<ailo> Or, you want to get opinions?
<holstein> yeah, i agree
<holstein> careful what/who you stir up ckontros 
<holstein> since the meeting, we're been kicking it around quite a bit in here
<ckontros> I'll elaborate.
<ckontros> "Some emails" would 1st be to the Studio-dev list regarding specific UI ideas.
<ckontros> Then based on feedback, adjust.
<holstein> ckontros: cool
<ckontros> In the absence of major issues/reservations/changes, I would then reach out the the guys in xubuntu-devel.
<scott-work_> hi ckontros 
<ckontros> If there's anything ne wsince the meeting, I'm listening. :)
<ailo> We should take a good look at Unity and Gnome3 before we form an opinion, I think. There's not much done on that yet, I believe.
 * ckontros waves @ Scott.
<holstein> ckontros: nothing new really
<holstein> we were just discussing gnome3
<holstein> and unity of course
<holstein> as options
<holstein> *and KDE
 * scott-work_ has to talk to boss a bit, be back
<ckontros> ailo: For 11.10 Unity and GNOME 3 simply arent an option. IMO.
<ailo> ckontros, Why so?
<ckontros> Even long-term, I do not feel they fit out users use-case.
<holstein> the valid argument is that a move to XFCE doesnt feel like a step forward
<holstein> UI-wise
<ckontros> Does it have to be?
<holstein> right
 * ckontros missed that memo.
<holstein> thats the question
<ailo> I think we should find out. Gnome3 just came out. Unity is under heavy development. At least regarding Gnome3, I feel, it would not be a huge step.
<ckontros> holstein: IMO, no. It doesnt need to be.
<ckontros> Like mentioned in the meeting, there seems to be the move to develop a desktop enviornmet where 1 app is the focus. Not multitasking.
<ckontros> Which, in the worls of audio work, doesnt happen.
<ckontros> *world.
<ailo> From looking at Gnome3, it looks very similar to Gnome2, except it has a new menu system. There's no theming yet, and one would need to find out how the menu can be tweaked. There will be a fallback option, and soon there won't be one needed anyway.
<holstein> personally
<holstein> i like the XFCE idea
<holstein> i think its lighter
<holstein> and more appropriate
<holstein> but, i also think thats a valid argument
<holstein> we are not moving forward to anything more modern
<ailo> ckontros, I don't think that is the case with Gnome3. It is very much a multitasking desktop. With multiple windows and workspaces
<ckontros> ailo: Its not so much about looks. Its about how windows/apps are managed.
<scott-work_> ack, back...we have a big, big project submitting soon, and i'm getting dragged into it
 * scott-work_ is reading backscroll now
<ckontros> No problen Scott.
<ckontros> ailo: For 11.10 I also feel GNOME-Shell in Ubuntu will not be what is will be in other distros  because of Canonical going with Unity.
<ailo> Unity, I have hardly tried, so I can't form an opinion on that at all.
<ckontros> I already know Unity and GNOME-Shell will not happily run together in 11.04.
<ailo> I think we should do what scott-work_ suggested. Try gnome3 with Ubuntu Studio packages and see how it flies. The same with Unity.
<ailo> That's all I'm rooting for, to try them out
<ailo> Or, is rooting not the right term? :P
<holstein> yeah, im comfortable with doing some research
<holstein> im also comfortable with planning XFCE for 11.04
<ckontros> "Try" in what sense? *note I've been tinkering with both with many of our apps and found it to massively interrupt my workflow.
<holstein> assuming we could change to gnome3 after that as some point
<holstein> if we wanted
<ckontros> I believe XFCE (which will get GTK updates im sure) will offer the the best transition.
<ckontros> (for everyone)
<ckontros> Remember we're not a desktop OS. We're very niche and shoud cater to our users workflows.
<holstein> ckontros: agreed
<ckontros> Whereas Ubuntu can afford to mix things up a bit more.
<holstein> i also think we should consider the users that come from ubuntu
<ailo> holstein, I agree with that.
<holstein> and have certain expectations
<ckontros> So please feel free to post to the thread I'll most likely post tomorrow. :)
<holstein> not that we have to cater to them
<holstein> but, we are at the beginnings of a big move
<holstein> and i think its healthy to explore options
<holstein> and discuss
<ailo> I would at least want to try things out before I form an opinion. Would be good to start now, I guess.
<ckontros> One big issue I see so far with going w/XFCE without panels (just AWN) is that there's no network-manager applet for AWN. Otherwise, most things seem to be replaceable with AWN.
<ailo> ckontros, Why AWN?
<ckontros> So, if we can solve that it might be best to take on the new Xubuntu layout altogether.
<holstein> yeah, im not a fan of 'no panel'
<holstein> thats way different than what most people are used to seeing
<ckontros> ailo: Did you read back the notes from the meeting?
<holstein> im open to exploring AWN though
<holstein> because its slick looking
<holstein> but, personally, i dont need the overhead for a clickable icon
<holstein> which is mostly what i would use it for
<ailo> ckontros, I saw it mentioned, but I didn't read much further than that.
<ckontros> holstein: I dont feel its so different considering the # of screenshots with folks using some sort of "dock".
<holstein> ckontros: right, but not a dock without a panel
<ailo> Perhaps we need testing iso's?
<ailo> If we could arrange to get some out, perhaps we could ask for opinions too.
<holstein> im all on board for XFCE personally
<holstein> i just didnt know that AWN was part of the deal
<holstein> again, im open to checking it out though
<ckontros> holstein: Sure. Will be different, but slick. ;) And honestly, this is an area where I feel less strongly. (whereas I feel the move to XFCE is totally the right one)
<ckontros> ailo: Please let me set up a base conversation first. GEt ideas going, then I can change the seeds to get disks built from Canonical directly.
<holstein> ckontros: COOL
<holstein> yeah, that might be helpful
<holstein> wouldnt need to have much in there really
<ckontros> This will also take discussion w/the Edubuntu folks as they have made strides w/package selection in the GUI installer.
<holstein> just the UI layout
<ailo> ckontros, I was thinking we could use a testing iso with Gnome3 as well. Unity isn't hard to do, since it's already a part of Ubuntu.
<ckontros> ailo: You free to do what you like as long as you're not touching the official Studio seeds.
<scott-work_> back, more quick meeting about this project....like aftershocks from an earthquake
<ckontros> scott-work_ You want me to stop chatting 'till you can get home from work? (and interact)
 * scott-work_ is re-reading backscroll again
<scott-work_> ckontros: nah, i should be able to focus on this for the next twenty minutes
<ckontros> Ok.
<ailo> If this was any other distro than Ubuntu Studio, I would agree on XFCE without blinking.
<ckontros> ailo: Can you explain how it matters to you? (meant genuinely though it can sound confrontational)
<ailo> ckontros, I'm just considering that Ubuntu Studio should be very broad and available to all. XFCE works, no doubt. Would Gnome3 work as good, or even better?
<ckontros> ailo: I feel for 11.10, no. Later, maybe. KDE has come very far since its initial 4.0 release.
<ckontros> GNOME3 Im sure will get better.
<ckontros> Though personally Ill be switching to KDE or XFCE for my desktops for the foreseeable future.
<scott-work_> alright, read backscroll
<ailo> One thing that I think about sometimes is that perhaps the LTS should be recommended first, so that the releases in between don't need to be as polished.
<scott-work_> i am curious to see how gnome3 works with studio packages, that is true
<ailo> But, I guess, cause people want updated programs, they always go for the latest
<scott-work_> but i think moving to xfce (via xubuntu work) offers us many advantages over others though
<ckontros> scott-work_: "how it works" is too dam general. :) We need to ask specific questions.
<ckontros> Generally, everything will run. :)
<scott-work_> i have faith in what cory is doing as well for the UI with xfce
<scott-work_> ckontros: yes, i meant more workflow
<ckontros> scott-work_: Testing in 11.04 w/Unity will be easy enough. But GNOME3 will be availiable an official PPA but is said to break and not work w/Unity installed.
<ckontros> So, testing there will be hard.
<ckontros> Asking folks to break their desktops.
<ckontros> Or simple testing installs.
<ckontros> Which, doesnt really put things through it paces day-to-day.
<scott-work_> would it be grossly different to install xubuntu and then add gnome3, boot into gnome3 xsession during login?
<ckontros> Hmm... Good question.
<scott-work_> or i could start with ubuntu studio couldn't i, then add gnome3?
<scott-work_> i have a spare machine, i'm not worried about borking it
<ckontros> Only thing I could imaging is some GTK oddness? IDK. :)
<ailo> I guess one could install a minimal ubuntu first, add the PPA via terminal, and then install Gnome3, just for testing purposes
<ckontros> Oh me either. Its just normal users Im thinking about.
<scott-work_> but keeping it pertinent, i would expect gnome3 to peform at best the same as gnome2...so no real benefit or improvement
<scott-work_> at worse, gnome3 could happen workflow...severely
<ckontros> ailo: Yes. This is how I built early Studio setups and even some of my desktops.
<scott-work_> but xubuntu most likely wouldn't happen workflows
<scott-work_> and xubuntu has many positives about that other DE will not provide
<ckontros> scott-work_: I know the RAM requiremtnts are quite a bit higher but shouldnt be an issue for Studio folks.
<scott-work_> i am certainly leaning towards xubuntu because of those benefits
<scott-work_> using xfce would also certainly be sustainable
<ckontros> Ok. Im gonna chill for the rest of the night. Ill get that email together and post it sometime tomorrow. I'm still on Freenode if anyone needs to PM.
<scott-work_> ckontros: i'll catch you later tonight then :)
<ckontros> np
<scott-work_> bump it, i'm going home too then :P
<ailo> Exiting times..
<ailo> exciting*
<holstein> exit-ing too apparently ;)
<ailo> holstein, Lucky choice of words
<ailo> One thing I'm definitely doing for natty+1 is I'm devoting some time on -controls. That's a promise.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-08
<ScottL> ailo, it is exciting...although "exiting" was pretty LOL
<ScottL> ailo, "natty+1"...yeah, i don't like oneriec (sp?) ocelot...it's too damn hard to spell and type
<ailo> ScottL, Haven't yet learned to remember oneriec. Trying to install Gnome3 now, but wasn't as easy as I thought on Natty
<ScottL> i'm also thinking through a plan to test gnome3 on ubuntu...i think ailo's suggestion of command line install, add ppa, then add gnome3
<ailo> ScottL, That didn't work for me
<holstein> gnome 3 is buggy
<ScottL> i'm doing a google search to see what else is there
<holstein> and so much like unity really
<ScottL> holstein, i downloaded the fedore gnome3 and it seemed pretty stable for the brief time i used it
<holstein> ScottL: i used it a little longer ;)
<holstein> maybe buggy isnt the right word
<holstein> just kinda flat
<holstein> but, it is new
<ScottL> holstein, LMAO
<ailo> I'm going to try installing from a regular Ubuntu this time.
<ScottL> ailo, i'm really wondering if xubuntu won't be a better base since it shouldn't include any unity packages
<ScottL> and i wish someone else would do a full install from dvd and see if the plymouth theme works or just shows a baby blue screen :/
<ailo> ScottL, The plymouth doesn't seem to work, the last I checked
<ScottL> i was afraid of that
<ScottL> it worked at one time but then stopped and i've done google searches to try to find if this was experienced (and fixed) by others, but no luck
<ailo> ScottL, I'm sure xubuntu is the better choice, but there's no harm in checking out Gnome3 and see what you can do with it. If Gnome3 is to be used, someone would need to make sure it can be used. So, if no one does that, Gnome3 wouldn't be an option anyway
<ailo> ScottL, It worked for me a long time ago, but I haven't done that many fresh installs since then
<ailo> ScottL, The latest install didn't seem to work.
<ScottL> ailo, lol, i meant xubuntu would be a better base from which to install gnome 3 for testing :P
<ailo> ScottL, Ah, that's a good idea :)
<ailo> ScottL, I think I will try Xubuntu, then
<ailo> Fun to see what that looks like as well
<ailo> ScottL, I must have not got the right picture about these derivatives before. I suppose not anyone can just start one and have it hosted at Canonical, since why would they need multiple versions with Gnome and so on, but still, I suppose anyone can propose to start one?
<ailo> I also realized now, that xubuntu has both alternative and desktop installs
<ScottL> ailo, xubuntu has an alternate install?  i didn't know that, i thought they were all desktop
<ScottL> but yes, derivatives (or flavours, don't know the "official"ly correct term) have to be approved to be built and hosted
<ScottL> i believe ubuntu studio went through a bit of a vetting process, perhaps a little more than xubuntu and kubuntu, but i could be wrong
<ailo> ScottL, Just looking at the pictures while installing Xubuntu gives me some nice vibes. It feels a lot better than what I am used to with FXCE.
<ScottL> yeah, xubuntu is really not bad, it truly believe it will provide practically all the functionality of gnome as expected with a few notable differences
<holstein> *lower overhead
<holstein> *more customization options
<ScottL> ailo, i'm really hoping that cory can come through with a fresh, rad UI that gives it some "WOW" factor and makes people appreciate it
<ScottL> i have an idea on fixing the plymouth theme...at least i think it's broken (which is part of the problem i suppose)
<ailo> Should have gone with the alternate installer. This one messed up my grub
<holstein> ailo: i dont like the new trend with buntus
<holstein> to not ask about grub
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not sure i understand what you are saying
<ailo> holstein, ScottL, It didn't ask, and it didn't make a good job installing it either. I ended up with grub rescue
<holstein> yeah, used to be there was a little button
<holstein> 'advanced'
<holstein> and you could specify grub
<holstein> or not
<holstein> now, you gotta get an alt disc to even see the term grub
<ailo> Tried rescuing, but no luck. Better use the alternate this time :(
<ailo> hmm, the alternate installer is not detecting my harddrive, probably because a kernel module was unable to load. This was not my day. I'll leave Xubuntu for another day
<abogani> The 39-lowlatency ~ppa4 should be compatible with nvidia.
<ailo> abogani, I was testing the 39 on another machine yesterday. AMD 64 bits this time. I've been mostly testing on 32 bits. The 39 is not good at all on the 64 bit machine, while 38 is pretty much the same on both. 
<abogani> ailo: Do you have any USB sound cards?
<ailo> abogani, I used onboard and pci cards to test on the 64 bit machine. On the 32 bit I use mainly onboard, since the pci card on that does not work well in low latencies.
<ailo> Sadly, no usb or firewire devices
<abogani> Arrggghhhhhhhh
<abogani> Launchpad have f***ed me!
<abogani> ailo: I really apologize 39-lowlatency seems misconfigured!
<abogani> I havne't noticed it yet!
<ailo> abogani, Really? So, both 32 bits and 64 bits are -generic? I was looking through the config, but didn't compare the two.
<abogani> ailo: Could you pastebin output of "grep PREEMPT /boot/config-2.6.39-0-lowlatency", please?
<ailo> # CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU is not set
<ailo> CONFIG_PREEMPT_NOTIFIERS=y
<ailo> # CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE is not set
<ailo> CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY=y
<ailo> # CONFIG_PREEMPT is not set
<abogani> ailo: Sorry sorry sorry
<abogani> I have made a big mistake!
<abogani> ailo: Sorry to have waste your time. :-(
<abogani> ailo: I pray you to excuse me.
<ailo> abogani, No, not at all. I am expecting that there will be problems on the way.
<abogani> In fact this is -generic + threadirqs
<ailo> abogani, I am happy to test -generic as well. So, that is good too.
<abogani> ailo: I'll fix this tonight.
 * abogani is very displeased
<ailo> abogani, No hurry. At this moment I am trying to figure out how to install gnome3 on Ubuntu. I will probably be occupied with that for a while anyway. Still haven't found someone who would be a good candidate to test the kernels. holstein might be.
<abogani> ailo: Ok
<ailo> holstein, Have you been thinking about learning how to package?
<ailo> Or, do you do some of that already?
<holstein> ailo: im always thinking about learning stuff
<holstein> i dont do that at all yet
<ailo> holstein, I'm learning about it now. Trying to get a package uploaded to launchpad later. Is there something you would have liked to package at any point?
<ailo> holstein, lf so, I was thinking, we could share some knowledge and hints
<holstein> ailo: i was going to try for butt
<holstein> *broadcast using this tool
<holstein> i thought it would be easy
<ailo> holstein, Not in the repo?
<holstein> ailo: wasnt
<holstein> its really click and run though
<holstein> from the DL
<ailo> holstein, Where can I find the source?
<ailo> holstein, Must be this http://code.google.com/p/butt/
<ailo> holstein, butt looks like nice way to start. I'm doing something similar now, from scratch, so I can assist you later. I could write a step by step thing, which I will have use for myself as well.
<holstein> phone...
<holstein> sorry
<holstein> ailo: i dont see a better place for the source
<holstein> i emailed the guy
<holstein> about taking the project on
<holstein> i didnt really want to traditionally fork it
<holstein> but, that what he said i could do
<holstein> not really continue it as is
<ailo> holstein, Seems like he hasn't been busy with it for a few years
<holstein> its dead
<holstein> he announced it
<holstein> he's not working on it anymore
<ailo> holstein, So, you would like to work on the code too?
<ailo> holstein, Is there anything you would like to add, or are there some bugs?
<holstein> i would like to do all kinds of things
<holstein> not sure what i can handle though
<holstein> ailo: its nice the way it is
<holstein> maybe just updated the UI a bit
<holstein> come up with a better name
<holstein> no bugs that i found
<ailo> c++ and QT. C++ might be a little challenging, mainly because there may be so many aspects of it, not just learning where to add functions and what type of functions
<holstein> yup
<holstein> it seemed easy
<holstein> but, when i looked at it
<holstein> it was still pretty far over my head
<ailo> holstein, It does look easy. I have wanted to learn C and C++, but haven't found a project yet. -controls was perfect for me learning about Python, which is a help when learning C later, I think.
<holstein> ailo: well, thats an option then
<holstein> and maybe i could just look over your shoulder
<ailo> I was going to make libraries to puredata, which are done in C. That's pretty much the only thing I could think of coding in C.
<ailo> holstein, I might be able to help with Python at least. I'll have a look at BUTT later. If it looks readable, I could help out with that too. I'm interested in learning, anyway.
<ailo> Packaging it should be no problem, at least
<holstein> even the backporting was a bit over my head really
<holstein> i just have *no* background in coding at all
<holstein> i know minimal html
<ailo> holstein, I found it was like getting over a threshold. Once you get over, things start rolling by itself. The biggest problem is when doing it all yourself, even a minor misunderstanding can cause the whole thing to halt, and when things take too much time, you loose motivation.
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> and i'll make a little progress
<holstein> and then i'll be working for 2 weeks straight or so
<holstein> and forget what i learned ;)
<ailo> I can't remember details and always need to look at some reference, but once you get a picture of the whole, you don't need to remember the details anyway.
<holstein> like i was saying the other day in the OSMP channel
<holstein> you guys just 'know' it
<holstein> because you do it all the time
<holstein> its not even so much memorizing
<holstein> its just living it
<holstein> like with songs/tunes for me
<holstein> its not like i have a ton of tunes memorized
<holstein> i just play them all the time
<holstein> and i know them
<ailo> When I was setting up my server, I'm so glad I wrote everything up and made some scripts. The whole period is like a black hole. No way I could remember everything. 
<holstein> yeah, i did a couple test server installs like that
<holstein> dont remember jack about it
<holstein> now i just get those turnkey linux images :)
<ailo> It's when you have to go through such a huge amount of information, and you only need to do it once, there's no way you will remember.
<ailo> With programming, it can be like that, in the beginning, because you need to learn too much at once.
<ailo> Hard to get the big picture, because of all the details
<ailo> But, give it a little time, and suddenly it isn't as complicated as it first seems
<ScottL> ailo, i installed maverick and then installed gnome3 and now i'm updating
<ScottL> i added tried following a tutorial and installed a ppa but the package they said to install wasn't there
<ailo> ScottL, Normal Ubuntu Maverick?
<ScottL> so on a whim i just opene synatpc and looked for gnome3
<ailo> ScottL, I had some dependency problem.
<ScottL> ailo, aya, regular maverick
<ailo> ScottL, I was told to install gnome-shell in one tutorial. Don't know how the packages are set up.
<ScottL> shrug, i just looked for gnome3 in synaptic, found a package and installed it
<ScottL> i didn't care if i borked it, it's a test machine and i had just completely wiped everything when installing it
<ailo> ScottL, I think I will take that approach too now. I have a nice system where my computers are synced with my servers. So, I don't need to manually back anything up. Just run a script after a new install, and I get most of my system up and running.
<ailo> server*
<falktx> hey there
<ailo> Without that, I can't keep track of my files. I just end up deleting everything,
<ailo> hey falktx 
<falktx> i have bad news
<falktx> my laptop broke again... :(
<ScottL> aww, that's shitty falktx :(
<falktx> yeah...
<falktx> so many things left undone
<falktx> now 1 more week (at least) computer free
<ailo> Is it the same one? How old is it? What breaks?
<falktx> ailo: internal disk is giving issues
<falktx> apt-get fails with I/O error
<falktx> lots of apps don't start, and other errors
<ailo> falktx, How about running from usb stick? What is it called, when you can save settings and so on?
<ailo> Good backup, if nothing else
<falktx> ailo: I'll still need my laptop 
<falktx> ailo: not sure If I can send just the HD for repair...
<falktx> (still under warranty, I think)
<holstein> persistent USB install
<ailo> falktx, Ah, ok
<holstein> falktx: hey, thats good news :)
<falktx> holstein: ailo: i know about the USB rw live-cd, i used it before
<falktx> holstein: lol...
<ailo> ScottL, So, you got Gnome3 up and running, then?
<ScottL> ailo, i updated, then rebooted, then had to answer a phone call from work  (it's that big project still :(  )
<ailo> ScottL, Lemme know if it works. I'm getting tired of failed installs :P
<ScottL> ailo, lol
 * ScottL is own a conference call right and i'm probably going to have to go into the office tomorrow :(
<ScottL> today was suppossed to be my day off and i spent 5.5 hours at work 
<ailo> ScottL, It's always good to be busy.
<ScottL> yeah, the alternate sucks pretty heavily :P
<ScottL> i'm wondering how i'm going to play minecraft on the gnome3 machine :?
<ScottL> ailo, it seems to be working, not as smooth or suave as the (current) fedora spin
<ailo> I will probably have no luch on the machine I will try on anyway, since I had problems with the Fedora live image. Broken graphics
<ScottL> maybe i haven't turned something on that fefora has on by default
 * falktx found a nice benchmark
<falktx> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_natty_pae64&num=1
<falktx> ^ ubuntu 11.04 32bit vs 32bit with PAE vs 64bit
<falktx> recommended
<falktx> really shows off the power of 64bit
<holstein> yeah, i checked that out
<holstein> and felt good about my 64bit decision on my studio rig
<holstein> even though i need to get some ram
<ScottL> oho, minecraft runs really slow on gnome3...therefore i don't like gnome3
<ScottL> j/k
<ailo> ScottL, No good drivers too, right?
<ailo> ScottL, Price of freedom. Shitty graphics
<ScottL> gnome3 works well, i think everything else would probably work well...minecraft is just really java heavy
<ScottL> i'm going to install natty as well on the hard drive and use that for development and for minecraft :P
<ailo> ScottL, I have to stay away from games. I get loony. 
 * falktx believe people should really try kde
<ailo> falktx, I will install KXStudio today. That, and Gnome3, if I am able.
<ailo> On separate partitions, of course
<falktx> ailo: kxstudio still uses lucid...
<ScottL>  but kxstudio looks really nice and has mad functionality because falktx put it everything that canonical doesn't want in there :P
<falktx> hehe
<falktx> the only "issue" will be the *LOT*s of updates you'll have after install
<falktx> I really hope to release another kxstudio version soon
<ailo> falktx, Natty?
<falktx> yes
<falktx> but a final version for lucid too, to include the latest updates
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-10
<ScottL> ailo, i'm hoping to test the -generic and -lowlatency kernels tomorrow morning before anyone wakes up
<ScottL> ailo, any suggestions on what you would like to see?
<ailo> ScottL, You mean 2.6.39?
<ScottL> ailo, any specifics you might want?
<ScottL> yes for the -lowlatency 2.6.39
<ScottL> i don't even know if 2.6.39 -generic is available at this point
<ailo> They were built wrong, so they are actually -generic kernels
<ScottL> oh, okay, maybe not then
<ailo> ScottL, They are a little unstable too. I get some crashes with them, so it might be a good idea to wait a little
<ScottL> i'll wait, i'll spend the time playing with the ubuntustudio plymouth theme and see if i can suss out why it isn't working (at least for me)
<ScottL> ailo, someone filed a bug about -controls not building for natty, i kinda laughed a little when i read that
<ailo> ScottL, The original -controls?
<ScottL> i'll respond to the bug report to say that -controls are no longer in the natty seeds and report the state of -controls
<ScottL> ailo, i expect the original -controls
<ScottL> bug 756080
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 756080 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-controls version 0.4.7build1 failed to build on i386" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/756080
<ScottL> i might just change the importance at this point so nobody gets worried about something that isn't even going on the image for natty
<ScottL> maybe this is because of the new gcc, maybe not, just thinking about all the trouble falktx has been having
<ailo> ScottL, I can take that bug, if you don't mind, since I'm already doing two others on that
<ScottL> ailo, oh sure :)
<ScottL> ailo, if you can't change the importance just let me know
<ailo> ScottL, That I can't. But, I did change it to invalid, and made a comment
<ailo> Though, perhaps invalid is not right, after all?
<ScottL> i'm not really sure myself
<ailo> ScottL, I will take another look later. At least I will have to explain why it shouldn't be built for Natty.
<ailo> Unless, one is changing the source
<ailo> And, what is that they are building? It's python, so he must only be trying to build the package
<ailo> ScottL, I deem it invalid, because he is trying to build a package for Natty that won't be included in Natty.
<Kokito> hello  folks
<ailo> Hey Kokito 
<Kokito> hey ailo 
<ailo> sup?
<Kokito> not much ailo 
<Kokito> relaxing after having a good plate of spinach ravioli for dinner
 * ailo had some waffles before with coffee, while working on some puredata code
<Kokito> ailo: am I right to assume that you are somewhere in Europe?
<ailo> Kokito, Gothenburg, Sweden
<ailo> Kokito, Kokito sounds Japanese
<Kokito> ah, cool. I am in northern California, about 100km east of San Francisco
<Kokito> ailo: Kokito is the diminutive of Koki, which was my nickname when I was a child :)
<Kokito> although I am kind of half-Japanese, not ethnically, but in spirity, because I lived there for about 23 years :)
<ailo> Kokito, Wow. Then you must be. I find there is some resemblance between my country men and Japanese people. I'm really a Finn, but grew up in Sweden.
<ailo> No samurais in Finland, though
<Kokito> hehe :)
<Kokito> I did hear something to the effect that finns and Japanese have some commonalities, but I am not sure what they are
<ailo> Kokito, The language is somewhat similar. But, not directly. Also, there are some cultural peculiarities that show in statistics. Higher suicide rate amongst other things
<ailo> The language may be related, but the trail goes back really far. Turkish and Japanese are probably related, and Finno-Ugric is probably related to Turkish
<ailo> The grammatics is what makes them similar
<Kokito> interesting
<Kokito> that would make it easy for me to learn the Finnish language then :)
<ailo> Kokito, I would think so. They are phonetically similar too. I saw a Japanese comedy show where they would call up Finnish people using a phone book, laughing at their last names, cause they meant something funny in Japanese
<ailo> Kokito, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeCOzpYXrKE
 * Kokito is watching
<Kokito> ailo: it is funny
<ScottL> ailo, gnome3 "superkey and start typing app name" way of opening a file has good things and bad things
<ScottL> to start firefox was quick :)
<ScottL> to start terminal was not :(
<ScottL> for firefox i hit "super" "fire" and pushed the enter key...viola, firefox was up   ->  nice :)
<ScottL> for terminal i hit "super" "terminal" and pushed enter....booo, i got terminal services ->   argh :(
<ailo> I was able to use the word terminal, and it's searching at the same time I type, on Unity. I can then use the arrows to choose the terminal
<ScottL> i tried "super" "terminal" tab key, then enter (thinking it might jump over to terminal from terminal services...didn't work
<ScottL> ah, didn't try the arrow key, i can do that after it installs the studio packages
<ailo> The lauchers appear under the search field for me
<ailo> But, I would want those functions to be even smarte
<ailo> smarter*
<ScottL> it does under gnome3, just in the small panel on the left instead of the main screen
<ailo> Also, I realized that I need to choose a category, before apps that weren't installed appear as search results.
<ScottL> if i'm going to the trouble to take my hand of the mouse i want to make sure i can complete my task without putting it back on the mouse :/
<ailo> I feel I can do that, but not with perfect smoothness
<ScottL> i'm still leaning towards the thought that having a small set of definable icons that the use can change their visibility based on a "category" that only requires one click (perhaps two at most) to launch an applicaiton is better, faster, easier
<ailo> I don't feel one needs to exclude the other, but I don't know what quick-launcher-bars will work under these systems
<ailo> wbar didn't seem to work under Unity
<ScottL> i'm also worried that the gnome3 that i'm using is a generation or so behind the gnome3 that was released this week
<ScottL> therefore, to make an accurate test of gnome3 i might have to wait until it is released properly for natty
<ailo> Waiting for Alpha 1 is a long wait. One would want to try on the system before that, but then it won't probably be very stable.
<ScottL> but i would hope it's feature set would be more complete, even if unstable
<ScottL> i just realized that i did not just try to search for gnome3 packages in synaptic while under natty, i kept trying "tutorials" on the web that suggested various PPA's
<ScottL> i might find gnome3 just under synaptic in natty now :P
<ailo> ScottL, Since Gnome3 will include the classic desktop, that is also an option for Oneiric
<ailo> At least, I think it will include it
<ScottL> that's a good question, it's unfortunate that shuttleworth and the "inner circle" aren't very vocal about what their direction is :/
<ScottL> i suppose it is possible that they don't have a definitive directions and are waiting to see how things "develop" (sorry for the pun)
<ailo> ScottL, I'm sure they need some user experience
<ScottL> i don't know, i'm starting to read some criticism of canonical not including community in decisions from quarters that have been, unto now, quite biased towards ubuntu/canonical
<ScottL> i don't want to be misunderstood, i believe wayland is a good move ultimately, x is old and retains crap loads of legacy code
<ScottL> but i don't like being blindsided by some of the decisions, especially when we are trying to develop an officially recognized flavour of ubuntu
<ailo> It's like they are being a little bold, and making waved. I hope this will lead to faster progress. After all, the changes seem to be pretty big
<ailo> waves*
<ScottL> right
<ScottL> but my point is that if they are making long term decisions, it would be nice to be involved slightly, even if just a courtesy email as a "head up"
<ScottL> i realize we are such a niche flavour, we don't get mentioned much in magazines unless it's a special about ubuntu studio, i routinely see the rote "ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, mythbuntu" tag
<ScottL> but i also wonder how much consideration the other flavours received in the decision making process, i'm presuming not much
<ScottL> which i understand for kubuntu and xubuntu for the most part, they use different DE's
<ailo> Yeah, don't think KDE is affected in any way.
<ailo> And perhaps not XFCE either
<ScottL> if we could get the documentation in order and really, really organized and effective
<ScottL> if we could update the website so that it is suave and new and compelling
<ScottL> if we could blitz the media with emails, blogs, maybe even interviews (and i mean even emailing published magazines)
<ScottL> even sending emails to linux outlaws, canonical or jono
<ScottL> i think we could step up respect for ubuntu studio
<ScottL> get more people involved and active
<ailo> ScottL, It would be really great if Oneiric was a release where US turns a leaf and becomes a truly well supported multimedia system
<ScottL> but the distro would need to be lean, efficient, and effective
<ScottL> ailo, yes, it would
<ScottL> :)
<ailo> ScottL, I'm on the boat and determined to get documentation and -controls in order.
<ScottL> that's awesome!
<ScottL> i really, really, really (really!) appreciate you involvement
<ScottL> you and old holstein are the two most involved people
<ScottL> alessio is too, but it's rather specific of course ;)
<ScottL> if we could get a better grip on the other multimedia parts of studio i bet i could even setup an interview with libre grahics magazine
<ailo> ScottL, Well. I'm really happy to be involved. Once you see what needs to be done, you just to get it done. The unfinished work is like a bad dream, you want to get rid of ;)
<ScottL> they have already offered us a full-page advert for free :)
<ScottL> ailo, aye, it's the "getting it done" part that troubles most people
<ScottL> they have good intentions but it seems that most of them require someone to tell them how to do it step-by-step
<ScottL> which is not bad if it's one or two people :P
<ailo> This time around, I'm ahead of what I need to know in order to work things out. Natty was too much at once for me
<ailo> So, I can forgive myself on account of that
<ScottL> lol, yeah it was a lot to do in one cycle :)
<ScottL> hmmm, i just realized that i probably broke my gnome3 install by installing ubuntustudio-default-settings
<ScottL> it will try to adjust the menu and panels :(
<ScottL> i should have just installed ardour and let it pull in the required dependencies :/
<ailo> ScottL, Did you see Ralfs last post? I think he might be warming up on the idea of using a preempt kernel without the realtime patch :P
<ailo> Since Rui had good things to say about it, if nothing else
<ScottL> i saw that i had email and that he was one of them
<ScottL> ralf seems very smart, just seems to have some trouble interfacing with people sometimes
<ailo> He has an unusual way of getting his point across.
<ScottL> he certainly seems very, very knowledgeable
<ScottL> eh, all the studio apps installed okay on gnome3, but it's still a pain to switch between the apps
<ScottL> but of course that is the gnome3 on maverick which may not be the best testing platform
<ailo> ScottL, If I have an objection against Unity (and will have to try Gnome3 to find out) its' not being able to switch apps easily.
<ailo> I use Alt + Tab, but it's a little slow and hard to identify the open windows
<ailo> I would rather it just brought up a window on top, instead of showing a list of small windows
<ailo> I'll be gone for most of the day. See you later..
<rlameiro> evening
<rlameiro> ScottL: ping
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-02
<len-nb> ScottL, astraljava, thunar _is_ the desktop. So the desktop icons will open thunar. In my mind, don't install thunar and don't have icons on the desktop....
<len-nb> The correct fix is to replace thunar with nautilus. May as well, nautilus is one of those things that once you open it... it seems to leave a part of itself going even after the window closes.
<ScottL> len, i don't think i've added thunar to the seeds anywhere and i did replace thunar with nautilus as the 'exo-file-manager' and i think in some rc file somewhere
<ScottL> i'll download all the seeds and -settings package and grep for thunar though
<ScottL> tomorrow
<ScottL> i'll do it tomorrow
<len-nb> ScottL, did you remove thunar from the seeds? Thunar is running as soon as the session opens
<len-nb> thunar is in the desktop seeds file in the xfce core section.
<len-nb> Scottl as I recall you left thunar in originally because you were not sure you could remove it without breaking something.
<ScottL> len-nb, ah, yes, once again you are right!
<ScottL> hehe, you *definitely* need to try to stay around and help us out ;)
<len-nb> ScottL I think the thing to do is take an install and mark the thunar executable chmod -x and see what happens on reboot. ;-)
<micahg> thunar (from thunar) is seeded in:
<micahg>   mythbuntu: daily-live
<micahg>   ubuntustudio: dvd
<micahg>   xubuntu: daily, daily-live
<len-nb> /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml seems to be the file that defines the desktop filemanager.
<ScottL> len-nb, hopefully you find that i have already changed that one ^^^ to nautilus
<len-nb> I'll check..
<ScottL> micahg, will you be able to help with a few uploads during this week?  this should be the last push
<len-nb>       <property name="Client2_Command" type="array">
<len-nb>         <value type="string" value="Thunar"/>
<len-nb>         <value type="string" value="--daemon"/>
<len-nb>       </property>
<len-nb> ScottL ^^^ still looks like thunar to me
<len-nb> The xubuntu in the path above should be ubuntustudio... The file I found the above lines in is:
<len-nb>   /media/a901f0b5-2e16-4591-8e0d-7199dd4eedca/etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml
<len-nb> That is my install drive.
<len> ScottL, looking on my 11.04 install (ps x) it doesn't look like nautilus needs the --daemon tag that thunar has.
<len> qexit
<len> s/qexit//
<micahg> ScottL: I can try, it's going to be a busy week for me
<len-nb> ScottL, working on ubuntustudio-look... in postinst in the update-alternatives command, what is the 150 at the end for?
<ScottL> micahg, ack'd and understandable, i think we have about five very simple, one line updates and the mixer plugin change that astraljava is working up (i don't know what is involved)
<len-nb> I need to add a second line the same for the plymouth text theme
<len-nb> ScottL no worries, I figured it out 150 will be fine for my second line.
<len-1204> ScottL, changing the values in that file did not correct the problem. Thunar does not run in the background... good. But the mounters are still there and still use thunar.
<len-1204> Those icons on the desktop appear to be a gvfs mounter. The the trash on the panel opens thunar too BTW.
<len-1204> So it may be that gvfs needs to be tweaked
<astraljava> ScottL: It needs changes (patches) to indication-sound and xfce4-volumed packages, which are really just small additions to what Lionel has done for Xubuntu.
<astraljava> ScottL: They are ready, but not tested just yet. I'll do that today, but I'm going to be away from home for several hours now. I'll let you know the bug #'s when they're all done.
<micahg> anyone mind if I pull in blender 2.62?
<micahg> ScottL: astraljava ^^
<ttoine> hi
<ScottL> micahg,  i wouldn't mind at all, in fact i would prefer to have blender 2.62
<scott-work> astraljava: did you ever file a bug for the mixer plugin?
<scott-work>   
<scott-work> there is a technical board (TB) meeting this afternoon, i have added ubuntu studio LTS application to the agenda
<scott-work> i hope we have an answer today regarding our LTS status
<scott-work> i would like to use the same image for the lightdm background as the desktop wallpaper, as it makes for a nicer transition from lightdm to desktop
<scott-work> however, i wanted to add "ubuntustudio <cof> 12.04" or "ubuntu studio <cof> 12.04 LTS" in the bottom left of the image
<scott-work> on the lightdm background
<scott-work> so, i haven't filed a bug against this yet
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> however, after that i hope to file a bug and then send an email out with a list of bugs that hopefully we can address this week
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> the FFe for bug #971159 is approved and stgraber has already made the change and will be in the next ubiquity version
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 971159 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[UIFe] new wallpaper for ubiquity on ubuntu studio" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/971159
<scott-work> another thing to remove from my list of what is left :)
<astraljava> micahg: I don't mind at all.
<micahg> ok, just waiting for release team ACK
<astraljava> Thank you!
<astraljava> scott-work: No, I did not file a bug yet about it. I will have to do it tomorrow, as I have to hit the hay now, been an awfully long and busy day.
<scott-work> astraljava: have a good night then :)
<scott-work> huh, just noticed this:  audacious-analog-vumeter-plugin
<micahg> scott-work: I can't commit to helping with the security backports, but eventually, I can probably help sponsor them
<micahg> scott-work: also, having the CVE breakdown available might be helpful
<scott-work> micahg: bloody hell, you are quick on things, i haven't even posted a link, have i?
<scott-work> micahg: i can take your name out of the CVE line
<scott-work> micahg: i don't have the break down available, i am at work, and stgraber dumped a bunch of links to me in PM to write something up :P
<micahg> scott-work: tech board list
<scott-work> micahg: and as always(!), thank you for your help, studio simple would not be in the same state without you
<scott-work> micahg: oh yeah, duh!  sorry, trying not to get fired at work as well and did that really quick while distracted by others
<micahg> scott-work: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq2SNWIcKGyrdEVndWg1am1oczBVenFfR3VxSEJ1WGc#gid=0
<scott-work> micahg: so, "it didn't look that bad" isn't a good breakdown :P
<micahg> right :)
<scott-work> okay, updated, thanks again
<scott-work> here goes the TB meeting
<micahg> there, got rid of the "gem" CVEs which were for imagemagick
 * micahg is off for a bit
<scott-work> "<cjwatson> I think I'm OK with this at this point"
<scott-work> :)
<scott-work> "<cjwatson> nothing is jumping out at me as obviously unsuitable, and the US team is clearly dedicated"
<scott-work> :) ^2
<scott-work> 12.04 is an LTS release!  ya :-D
<micahg> scott-work: congrats
<scott-work> thank you!
<scott-work> and thank you again for being part of making it happen, micahg 
<scott-work> wow, crazy stuff going on with kubuntu though, i had no idea
<scott-work> but i must go, i'd like to get home before the weather gets any worse :/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-03
<ttoine> ScottL, are you here ?
<ttoine> astraljava, ping ?
<astraljava> Hi ttoine, what's up?
<ttoine> astraljava, there is a problem with the boot of the amd64 beta2
<ttoine> instead of having the nice menu (choosing keyboard layout, etc...) you have a black and white grub
<ttoine> however, on the i386, all is like any other ubuntu installer
<astraljava> ttoine: Hmm... I didn't see that on my setup. Let me double-check soon-ish.
<ttoine> I use a usb key, not a dvd
<ttoine> I have the problem only with ubuntu studio amd64. It is fine with the i386. and it is fine too with both standard ubuntu
<astraljava> Ok, good to know, I'll look for my USB stick.
<ttoine> astraljava, do you want me to test with a dvd, or in virtual box ?
<astraljava> ttoine: I don't think either is required. I know that I didn't see such a behaviour on my desktop, installing from a dvd.
<ttoine> ok
<astraljava> ttoine: Oh, wait. I used qemu for virtualization. Yeah, if you could try it in vbox, that would be great.
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> astraljava, ok, I checked with virtual box, I don't have the problem. Only with generating the usb key
<ttoine> As I did the usb key twice, I won't check anymore
<ttoine> so maybe it is a bug with the Ubuntu usb key generator ?
<astraljava> ttoine: Could be. I'll try with unetbootin.
<ttoine> astraljava, I will check with the ubuntu beta2 if there is the problem too
<astraljava> ttoine: unetbootin works as expected, but of course it has its own menu. I'll try now with the usb creator.
<ttoine> astraljava, ok
<astraljava> ttoine: It works for me, so I'm guessing there was something wrong with your creation of the usb stick. I had to do it twice, as it failed on the first time (with an error message while doing that, at least).
<ttoine> astraljava, ok. I 'll try this afternoon with the standard ubuntu
<ttoine> astraljava, I have the bug with the standard ubuntu amd64 too. I will make a fresh install today and check if I still have the problem
<astraljava> ttoine: Ok.
<len> ttoine, astraljava that may be a hardware thing.  I have seen differences with the same usb stick/image from machine to machine in that area. I still have all the menus, but on my faster desktop when I select live session the menu stays there for over a minute.
<len> It looks like I didn't select anything, but the up/down keys don't work so something has happened.
<astraljava> len: Makes sense. Thanks!
<len> That would be a grub2 thing.
<astraljava> Alright, got the mixer change done. Am off now to filing bugs about it, and providing the necessary debdiffs.
<knome> :)
<astraljava> Actually, micahg, can you tell me the way to get this change through? I have patches in debian/patches/ for the changes, are debdiffs the preferred way still?
<micahg> astraljava: what package?
<astraljava> micahg: xfce4-volumed and indicator-sound.
<micahg> sure, debdiff is fine
<astraljava> Alright, cheers.
<astraljava> micahg: bug #972749 includes debdiff for indicator-sound.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972749 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Prefer pavucontrol over xfce4-mixer in ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972749
<micahg> astraljava: go ahead and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors, I'm not able to look at these
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, thanks.
<astraljava> ScottL: Ok, the mixer fix is only partial as of now.
<astraljava> ScottL: I made the change so that Indicator Plugin now opens pavucontrol when you select 'Sound Settings...'
<astraljava> ScottL: But the other fix attempting to correct unmute doesn't work for me.
<astraljava> So, I need more time for that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-04
<nonau> This has been bugging me for a bit.  In Ubuntu Studio the windows won't maximize when I click on the title bar.  I've tested it in Xubuntu beta and it worked just fine for me.
<nonau> I can repeat this behavior on three computers, all running beta 2 with or without updates.
<holstein> hmmm... wonder what controls that
<holstein> could be something that was done to be more gnome2 like
<nonau> There is an option under Settings Manager>Window Manager>Advanced that is for the doubleclick action on the task bar.  By default it is set to maximize.
<holstein> not sure what that looks like in the build scripts or whatever though
<nonau> In any case, all of the options there are broken for the GUI settings.
<holstein> yeah.. they might have been edited for some reason to be more gnome2 like
<holstein> im not certain
<len-nb> So far as I know we copied xubuntu settings pretty much. You will likely find our current settings are either xfce default or xubuntu 11.10
<holstein> i feel like its being implied that the settings are "greyed out", or not configurable
<nonau> No, the setting is configurable.  It just happens to do nothing when configured.
<len-nb> I can't reboot right now as I am uploading to bzr.
<len-nb> in xubuntu 11.10 (what I am using now) hide window minimizes... but maximise is default.
<holstein> doing nothing when configured means its not configurable to me
<len-nb> Ja, I will also look at it when I can reboot. I'll try it on todays live iso
<len-nb> There is a "nothing" configuration. maybe something is switched (label to action).
<len-nb> nonau are you using english?
<nonau> Yes.  The language is English.
<len-nb> OK so it is not a translation problem.
<len-nb> Have you tried other options? Do any of them work? I have to admit I haven't tested that part of things.
<nonau> Nope.  None of the options did anything when I switched through them.
<nonau> I can test this again, later.  For now I need to reboot into another OS to get some work done.
<len-nb> ScottL, I don't know if you are up or not... but here is stuff for the plymouth text theme: https://code.launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+junk/ubuntustudio-look
<len-live> Ok, rebooted to US beta2. Checked out the above problem (double click on title bar). I found that I could set all types of actions (shade, hide, max, fill and nothing) and they would work for me.
<len-live> I did find that getting my double click timing was not so easy. Increasing double click time helped. Note that this is netbook with a touchpad not a mouse. The sensitivity of the touch pad affects this too.
<astraljava> holstein: He's gone now, but for me the double-clicking does maximize windows.
<astraljava> holstein: However, I turned compositing off. Could that mess up things?
<astraljava> len_: Oh I see you tested it too. I'm quite sure there was some other weird error having to do with that.
<astraljava> Ok, there's a new version of lowlatency kernel in the archives, please help testing it, thanks!
<astraljava> Thanks, Luke, again!
<astraljava> Hmm... well it's not there _yet_, but got accepted, anyhoo.
<knome> heh
<astraljava> Ok, now this is f***ed up. I have installed this session that I'm writing this from, from US dvd. I have this in dpkg.log(s): http://paste.ubuntu.com/914560/, and _yet_ I have this regarding one of our most important meta-packages: http://paste.ubuntu.com/914561/
<astraljava> I'm ' ' close to fainting.
<astraljava> Somebody please explain before I go banging my head against a brick wall.
<astraljava> ...also, bug #973373. *facepalm*
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 973373 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "package ubuntustudio-audio 0.90 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/973373
<astraljava> Well, I believe that bug is easier to explain, it's just missing the python-changesettings dependency.
<astraljava> I'll fix it right away.
<len_> scott-work I am on my way out. Just wanted to make sure you saw this: https://code.launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+junk/ubuntustudio-look
<astraljava> micahg: I know you're really busy, but since you know ubuntustudio-meta better than any other in-the-know-of-Standards-Version, is it okay to bump it to 3.9.3 to fix the lintian warning? I know I am supposed to read about it, but... personal life gets in the way.
<astraljava> micahg: TheMuso: I'd appreciate some packaging help here. up-to-date precise pbuilder build run for ubuntustudio-meta gives me: dpkg-gencontrol: warning: Recommends field of package ubuntustudio-graphics: unknown substitution variable ${germinate:Recommends}
<astraljava> Failed to find more info about it on google. I will head on to -motu now, but thought you guys know more about this particular package, hence asked here first.
<astraljava> So yeah, -audio-plugins gets installed, but not -audio. This'll be fun...
<micahg> astraljava: idr what the standards version bumps offhand
<micahg> astraljava: as for the meta, that's because the seed is all depends
<astraljava> micahg: Right. Laney said I could most likely ignore the germinate warnings. I suppose the standards can too, it doesn't seem to break anything so far. But I'll read up on it for the Q cycle. Would that do?
<micahg> astraljava: sure (I still have chromium at 3.8.3 since I don't have time to fix it up, but that's a much more complicated case)
<astraljava> micahg: I bet.
<astraljava> Why is it that whenever I try to get something done, there are network issues?! *grrr*
<astraljava> micahg: TheMuso: Whenever you have time, please check bug #973373, the attached debdiff should fix the issue.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 973373 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "package ubuntustudio-audio 0.90 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/973373
<astraljava> I don't know why I overlooked this in the past, it's too obvious. Oh well...
<astraljava> Live and learn.
<scott-work> astraljava: heh, that is probably my fault from when i made the transitional package
<astraljava> scott-work: Right, I dunno. But whatever, it'll be fixed now. :)
 * astraljava is slightly annoyed that the revision on bzr/LP isn't matching the package version. :p
<len_> astraljava, holstein, ScottL: the problem nonau reported yesterday (?) with the double clicking on the window title bar not working.... I was able to reproduce it.
<len_> This time on my desktop with a real mouse. It seems to be a mouse problem rather than a window manager problem.
<len_> setting the double click time from 250 to 300 or 350 made the trouble go away.
<len_> This is odd as I can double click other things (opening folders for example) with no problem. (or less problems anyway)
<len_> Still it may be an idea to increase the double click time by default to 300.
<len_> If anyone talks to nonau again please ask them to change the mouse setting and try again.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-05
<astraljava> len_: Ok, thanks for checking that out.
<astraljava> So the new kernel landed, I want to use this opportunity *smirk* to encourage everyone to do some further testing. I'm not sure whether it's kernel-related, but I've noticed some corruption of packets on heavy-duty file transfer over ssh, so will do some debugging over the weekend.
<astraljava> Thanks again, TheMuso, for updating the kernel tree!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-06
<len-1204> ScottL, just found some not obvious things, but still need fixing. Under settings->removable drives and media... 
<len-1204> removable storage when hot plugged should probably not get mounted or opened by default. Audio CDs should not be auto played... not by exaile which we don't ship anyway. And video cd/dvd can't be opened by parole that we don't ship so they shouldn't get opened at all either.
<len-1204> It seems the is a gvfs instance running all the time to do each of these things.
<ScottL> len_, astraljava:  i agree, these things need to be done, but i'm kinda out of energy at the moment (although i'm starting to get it back) and i don't know what we can do still get done this close to release
<ScottL> i'll probably start making changes in bzr this weekend and i guess we'll see what we can get pushed to the repos
<astraljava> ScottL: No worries, I'll look into the issues as well over the weekend. We have to have a break every once in a while, even this close to release. :)
<astraljava> len_: ScottL: the spot to change this in is thunar-volman.xml, but how do we want to do it? No autoplay by default? Some other app?
<astraljava> Of course, I don't want that limited to just these two fine gentlemen. holstein: stochastic: ailo: falktx: Opinions on the matter?
<astraljava> (I think that covers those actively interested about US usage-wise? if not, speak up)
<falktx> I'm already pretty busy here
<astraljava> falktx: I just wanted your opinion on the matter; autoplay with ___ application, or no autoplay by default.
<falktx> astraljava: how so autoplay?
<falktx> of music??
<len_> astraljava, right now we effectively have no auto play. I don't think auto play would be a problem because it still takes a user action (insterting media) to start.
<astraljava> falktx: Yeah, when inserting audio|video -cds. Currently there are exaile and parole set for those.
<falktx> I personally don't like autoplay
<falktx> can it be asked?
<len_> The only auto action that works is open a file manager when memory inserted
<astraljava> len_: Effectively, yes. But they're set as true, with apps that we don't ship, so some change is required.
<astraljava> falktx: Not that I know of.
<len_> Yup.
<astraljava> I wonder if everyone would be content with setting all others but mass memory as false.
<len_> Auto play is for people who don't know what application plays what they put in ;-) However think about the person who has a cd they want to pull a song off and has to stop a player before they can work.
<len_> astraljava, I am the first person to notice...
<astraljava> len_: Yep, thanks for that. I think I'll set them as false, then. Was there a bug about this, yet?
<len_> astraljava, I just noticed last night.
<len_> Going to be in holiday mode in a bit with the family.
<astraljava> len_: I'm asking because there was a similar bug for Xubuntu, so I'm a bit confused now. :) But yeah, I'll file the relevant bug about it, so it gets in without an FFe (which are being severely limited as of now)
<len_> I'm entering one now.
<astraljava> len_: Yep, go enjoy your holidays. :) I'm on guard over the weekend.
<len_> This would be in ubuntustudio-settings?
<astraljava> len_: ubuntustudio-default-settings, yes.
<len_> Bug #975253 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 975253 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "auto open for audio/video media has wrong applications" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/975253
<len_> There now we have a place to fix from.
<astraljava> len_: Thanks! I'll go make the relevant change after the release meeting.
<len_> I'm off for a bit.
<astraljava> This is now fixed, I'll wait for other fixes to -meta before asking an upload early next week. Let the guys enjoy their holidays, if they do so in the first place.
<len_> astraljava, are you interested in fixing the -look package? I have a fix for it: https://code.launchpad.net/~len-ovenwerks/+junk/ubuntustudio-look, but don't know how to add it in. basically it adds a ubuntustudio branded text plymouth theme in case the video driver won't allow the normal one to work... like with my old nvidia card.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-07
 * holstein is -1 on autoplay
<holstein> but i dont really care enough to be a hard-on about it
<len_> holstein, I think we figured that no one has noticed that it hasn't worked for the last cycle... the only reason I noticed was from looking at the setup, not trying to get it to work. No body has missed it.
<len_> In any case we are just defaulting it off. The function is still there if someone wants to enable it.
<len_> Something had to be done because it was turned on, but the apps it pointed to aren't shipped ;-)
<len_> Does anyone know that much about run levels? ubuntu (and others) seem to use RL 0,1,2,6. Slackware used to use 3 for X station and 2 for cli only. I would like US to use 3 for soft record mode and 4 for hard record mode. (next cycle stuff here)
<len_> Soft record mode means networking on still, but most services off. This would be to support workflows that need the net... netjack, streaming, etc.
<astraljava> len_: Debian (and derivatives) have defaulted to rc2
<len_> Hard record mode would get rid of everything possible ;-) including networking.
<len_> Yup, that was what I said, but the rl 345 are still supported, right now they just clone rl2
<len_> astraljava, the idea of RLs at all is to allow what we want to do... so why not use it?
<astraljava> Yes of course. Well, it's something to think about. I'd want especially TheMuso's and micahg's thoughts on the matter.
<len_> RL, would only be part of the solution though, as there are lots of things that get started by the session that might be better turned off as well for recording. I think it would take lots of testing to make sure its right though.
<astraljava> len_: Yep, that's true. But I've also sometimes wondered about utilizing those, just never had the time to really try it out.
<len_> The main problem with changing RL is it needs to be SU root. It would be a pain to have to password it every time. But I notice the software update doesn't ask for password any more. So the policykit must have a way of dealing with that.
<len_> astraljava, I would like to take a list from ps and have someone who knows what all those processes are tell us which we can turn off :P
<len_> and how.
<len_> There is a big difference between xubuntu and some of the distros for old computers even.
<len_> There is a lot of stuff running that doesn't really need to be there.
<astraljava> len_: True, I'd say we should dedicate a cycle for such matters, to really tweak the distro towards the lower latency and stability.
<astraljava> Ok, 2nd period of the hockey game --> bbl
<len_> There is a commandline utility for setting up run levels, I think ubuntu server comes with it.
<len_> I will look. I don't expect any answers just now then... enjoy the game... I'll put some more thoughts down. anyone is free to add theirs ... just brain storming for next cycle.
<len_> I think, when I next work on my workflow project, I will try adding a record mode button that changes RL and allows for some other things too. I realize I will also need a utility (GUI) to set up the configuration for it.
<len_> My opinion is that no work will happen towards getting a good record mode until there is first the software to change things on the fly. 
<ailo> Tweaking the desktop won't do much to reduce latency or make performance more reliable
<ailo> Maybe nothing at all
<ailo> The only thing you can do is to try save RAM for older machines
<ailo> Well, machines that have less than 2 GB of RAM
<ailo> The difference in audio performance, comparing the most basic type of desktop with a modern one that needs graphic acceleration, there's no difference at all
<ailo> Except for when people have hardware issues
<ailo> If there are things running that take a lot of hard drive resources, those should probably be disabled
<ailo> To save RAM memory, you don't want to use a recent Firefox or Chrome
<ailo> Already there, you get problems
<ailo> I think automatic updates should be disabled by default
<ailo> And anything that might pop up automatically
<ailo> Those are things you don't want to appear when you're in the middle of a recording session
<ailo> I guess one could think about how to make a "clean" experience for the user.
<ailo> I much more prefer to think about the user approach, and not save any resources to make it a nice experience
<ailo> I mean, not save resources, but just focus on making it a nice experience for the user
<ailo> It's 2012 after all
<ailo> len_: ScottL: I'm just wondering what this "record mode" is about. I mean, is there a problem that needs to be solved? And how does the "record mode" solve the problem?
<ailo> I don't see anything affecting performance on a standard Ubuntu install, so I don't think there's anything noticable on Ubuntu Studio either
<len_> ailo, having things "pop up" unexpectedly is the major thing. There are some non-user space kinds of things that do this like cron. and some user space things too like Netman and update.I think those are the major things. There are lots of systems that are only 1G ram and even something 1 year old (maybe new) has pulse audio running as much as 30% cpu in use and 15% at rest.
<len_> PA is RL dependent and so is cron
<len_> wireless net can be a problem as the netman scans for systems every once in a while. But there are some workflows where it is needed.
<len_> Wired net is pretty stable and even a dhcp lease renew probably won't hurt things, but I have heard at least one person say networking should be turned off while recording.
<len_> some of this stuff is not what I personally need, but what some user has mentioned. Once there is a capability for stopping some things for recording, it makes sense to be able to make the switch complete.
<len_> I think there is some agreement that we do need a system config tool of some sort. This is an extension of that.
<len_> Servers of any type don't really belong on an audio machine... but some of us need the same machine to be multi use. So record mode can fix that too.
<ScottL> ailo, it was just an idea, nothing in particular about it really
<ailo> len_: As far as networking goes, I don't think it has been a problem for anyone for a long time. It used to be, but not anymore. It would be best to get valid confirmation on that.
<ailo> It's not easy slimming down RAM usage
<ailo> It would mean no Firefox or Thunderbird
<ailo> I say, have 2GB as a limit
<ailo> After all, any recent machine -4 years old has at least that usually
<ailo> Except for netbooks perhaps
<ailo> I would like to have confirmation on any of those issues
<ailo> Not sure there are any problems at all, except for hardware issues
<ailo> Using XFCE over Unity-2D, or Gnome classic is probably not saving much RAM either
<astraljava> Yeah, but then who would keep T-bird or FF open while doing something memory-hogging activities?
<ailo> As I see it, those are the most memory consuming applications
<ailo> Other things are trivial
<astraljava> Anything Java, and you're screwed.
<ailo> What is the goal? To make a distro that suits the year 2005, or the present? It feels like much concern is taken for issues that no longer are valid, cause they've either been fixed, or computers have evolved since then
<ailo> astraljava: Did you fix the volume applet thing?
<ailo> I thought I read something about that..
<astraljava> Only in half. I switched it to use pavucontrol from Sound Settings..., but the unmute problem is still wide open.
<ailo> astraljava: unmute?
<astraljava> The fix Lionel did for that is not 100% fool-proof, didn't work for me.
<ailo> Great work though. That, and having the theme and the menu in place, the release will feel pretty decent
<ailo> astraljava: What is the problem with unmuting exactly? I've missed that part
<astraljava> ailo: Check out bug #883485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883485 in xfce4-volumed "Pulse Audio don't get unmuted when XF86AudioMute is used" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883485
<astraljava> For that I opened bug #972781 for Studio.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972781 in xfce4-volumed "Prefer PulseAudio when XF86AudioMute is used for ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972781
<astraljava> The patch only works so that the indicator flashes accordingly, but sound isn't audible with unmute.
<astraljava> You can even see the little button in pavucontrol flash lightly, but still no go.
<ailo> astraljava: If I read correctly, the volume control still only controls alsa, not PA, so that's the reason for the bugginess
<astraljava> ailo: Yeah. But I haven't had time to tweak the patch further, yet. I'll try to over the rest of the holidays, but I have to pack also, so I'm not sure whether I'll finish it in time or not.
<ailo> astraljava: I spoke too soon. I thought it was a new bug, post the PA hack
<ailo> The first bug, that is
<ailo> Does the unmute cause any problems, or is it just that the button isn't doing anything?
<astraljava> It's not doing anything, but it is a grave usability bug IMNSHO.
<ailo> As long as it's not messing things up :P. I'm thrilled that pavu control is used. Looking forward to seeing peoples reactions on the release
<ailo> Of course, it's not nice to have disfunctional controls
<astraljava> It's really not.
<len-1204> some hardware has a mute and some doesn't. Volume to 0 (if you play guitar) or infinity (if you do sound) should be pretty universal.
<len-1204> It does mean remembering the set level for unmute...
<ailo> len-1204: The mute shouldn't touch the hardware. Only PA
<ailo> That said, I'm not perfectly sure how PA handles it, but it should always mute no matter what
<len-1204> ailo, thats different PA should be able to just cut the feed... just bitbucket the stream.
<ailo> Yeah
<len-1204> I'm not sure it does though...nope, PA mutes t
<len-1204> the device.
<len-1204> Works on my HDA machine... won't work with a D66 for example.
<ailo> Works for me
<ailo> But not using the controls that come with Ubuntu Studio / Xubuntu
<ailo> The mixer that comes with Ubuntu doesn't have a "mute" button. Only "On"
<ailo> Toggling "On" will mute audio for d-66
<ailo> So, PA should mute any device. Question is, what is the mute button really doing?
<len-1204> Have to look at what it does to the hardware. The d66 doesn't have a mute setting, except for the monitor section, but only if you are using it. PA doesn't use the monitor section by default.
<ailo> len-1204: PA main volume doesn't touch the hardware at all
<len-1204> Most people would be upset if PA played with the monitor section anyway.
<ailo> It's purely software volume
<len-1204> Which screen is that? All the PA volume controls seem to effect the hardware here.
<len-1204> Well maybe not the application level.
<ailo> How does it affect the hardware?
<len-1204> PA-jack is software only though
<len-1204> The output device control controls the hardware till 100% then the sofware kicks in.
<len-1204> If I have alsamixer open I can watch the controls move when I move the PA controls.
<len-1204> (HDA audio BTW)
<ailo> len-1204: Not for d-66
<len-1204> envey24 stuff has it's own config in PA
<ailo> len-1204: "For example, many modern soundcards or built-in sound chips don't have a "master volume" control; for these devices, the user space library instead provides a software volume control using the "softvol" plugin" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softvol
<ailo> The quote was from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture
<ailo> But that's alsa..
<len-1204> So alsa has a mute work around for everything.
<len-1204> But alsa doesn't have a master vol for the d66 last I looked.
<len-1204> I don't think I would want one either, actually.
<ailo> Some cards have a main out in their internal mixer
<ailo> I mean, some multi-channel cards like -d66
<ailo> But then you are able to route outputs to either be direct outs, or through the main out
<ailo> I mean, to either be direct outs, or be multi-outs
<ailo> There's even some that have aux out, that can be assigned to any output
<ailo> Just like a regular mixer
<ailo> Makes sense for multichannel cards, especially when over 8 channels ins/outs
<len-1204> ailo, thats what I meant I guess. routing makes a mess of things for system sound.
<ailo> It'll be great once alsa supports firewire
<ailo> Would be nice if more usb2 devices were supported as well
<ailo> And how will it be with usb3?
<astraljava> Yeah I'm not sure it's wise to spend much time on USB2 devices. USB3 is already there, and makes much more sense for such.
<astraljava> But I don't really know.
<astraljava> ...aaaand I'm off to watching more hockey. :)
<len-1204> astraljava, not sure which way to go on the usb2 vs usb3 thing. Lots of computers don't have usb3... but then this netbook may be better off sticking to usb1 devices anyway...
<len-1204> s/usb1/usb1 audio/
<len-1204> took a look at init.... now upstart, I guess I get to relearn this stuff again.
<len-1204> run levels still work, but are set up differently... sort of. It looks like at least some things have to be done both sysinit and upstartish.
<len-1204> off to the beach...
<ailo> The beach, ey..
<astraljava> len-1204: Yeah, but USB3 really is the future, not all USB2 chips are that reliable.
<astraljava> I could go to the beach. But I couldn't tell when I'd arrived.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-08
<len-1204> about upstart... just reading the book and it says that user jobs are not enabled at this time (to 11.10) does anyone know if ubuntu is going to add this soon or at all?
<len-1204> Ah, found my answer.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-01
<holstein> zequence: Len-nb ping
<holstein> would either of you have some time to talk with las in #ardour ?
<holstein> !proaudio
<ubottu> For information on professional audio tools in Ubuntu, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ProAudioIntro
<scott-work> zequence: i have posted a blog post and a g+ post about stepping down. i should get it to the mailing list shortly
<zequence> holstein: About Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> scott-work: Ah, yep. I will reply in a few moments :).
<holstein> zequence: correct
<holstein> zequence: las was having issues with the pulse to jack bridge in stock ubuntu
<holstein> users of ardour having issues
<holstein> he's working on documentation for them
<len-1304> holstein, It is likely any such documentation will be out of date already
<len-1304> There have been changes to pulse code that has taken care of the major pa-jack issues.
<len-1304> scott-work, Don't be a stranger, we will continue to welcome whatever input you do have if you have time.
<falktx> hey zequence
<falktx> zequence: first of, congrats
<falktx> do you have a minute?
<scott-work> thanks len, i do have a few ideas
<zequence> falktx: sure, thanks
<scott-work> i was thinking about the possibility of adding a "first-run" script that asks the user if they wanted to add falktx 's kxstudio repository
<scott-work> _that_ would also be good for a ubuntu studio controls app as well ;)
<falktx> zequence: I have to say in all honesty, I don't think you're the right man for the job
<falktx> zequence: it seems to me you don't understand how some things work, under the hood, and that is a bit bad
<falktx> zequence: I hope you do a good job though!
<falktx> for me, pure Debian or Ubuntu is too limiting, and too much burocracy
<falktx> I'm doing my own thing but trying to make it as much generic as possible, so it can be used by anyone
<zequence> falktx: I don't know everything yet, but things are progressing on the technical side. But, you should know that you will probably not meet someone soon who has as broad understanding of mainly audio production on levels as I, and I am good at organizing
<falktx> zequence: scott-work: Sorry I couldn't get Cadence to work in time
<zequence> I also became member of Debian Multimedia Team yesterday
<zequence> My goal is to improve the whole infrastructure, in all the areas where we are suffering
<zequence> And to do that, one needs to communicate with all parties
<zequence> The burocracy is not a problem IMO. It's actually more of a do-ocracy
<zequence> As long as what you want to do is good for the community, and not only for yourself. Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia distro, not only for audio
<zequence> Any custom audio configs need to be configurable, if they are solely for pro audio
<zequence> ..or get in the way of other things
<falktx> sure
<zequence> For this, it would be best to have a gui tool
<falktx> in any case, I have set-up a PPA with just Cadence, if anyone wants to try
<zequence> I have used it
<zequence> Probably, I should be giving more feedback about it
<zequence> Currently, I'
<falktx> there's only a few things that need to be done for a v1.0 release
<zequence> Currently, I would regard it as a nice app to have, as an alternative to other control apps
<falktx> zequence: I welcome all bug reports here, https://github.com/falkTX/Cadence/issues :)
<falktx> including feature requests
<falktx> for now it's all about bug fixing and stability over features though
<zequence> I have a lot of ideas on a control app for Ubuntu Studio, also another form of it that could be more of a generic app. I think in order for us to consider Cadence as a default app, or as a default Ubuntu Studio control app, we would need to work more closely on features
<zequence> Right now, the most important things I see is that we get jackd working on any Ubuntu or Debian derivative, without too much work
<zequence> I'd prefer to do it by getting through a policy change in Debian and Ubuntu concerning groups, but if that doesn't work, it would be nice if a tool could provice this  configuration
<falktx> currently Cadence has 1 big flaw regarding Debian/Ubuntu - it needs jack2 to work
<falktx> this is because default jack1 doesn't have dbus, it needs a patch
<zequence> falktx: I guess you could add a function to it that greys out everything, if jackdbus is not aviable, and/or just inform the user
<zequence> Don't know what issues there would be about patching it in Debian
<zequence> I realize, jackdbus is the best default. I'm sorry there is a divide between some people about the development of jack
<zequence> Would be nice if there was only one
<len-1304> what advantage or in what situation would jack 1 be better?
<zequence> falktx: When you speak about under the hood, you mean code. And yes, I'm not a coder. that is not my job anyway. My job is to ensure that Ubuntu Studio has the features that users want, and that we promote free software. The coding, I leave to the coders :)
<zequence> As for Debian packaging, and Debian policy, it's just a matter for time before I learn all about it
<falktx> zequence: I already disable things when jackdbus is not there, so we are on the same page :)
<falktx> anyway, brb
<zequence> len-1304: the picture I get is that there's a divide on how the application is coded, more than on what it does
<zequence> las thinks jack1 is no good, but has problems with jack2 as well
<zequence> I don't really know
<len-1304> zequence, that is my take on it too
<len-1304> jack2 has three threads instead of one... but they both have the saem api
<len-1304> The only place I can see using jack1 is possibly when using netjack as the code is somewhat more mature
<len-1304> zequence, I think out of the people involved in Studio, you have the clearest vision of where we should go, plus drive to get there and more time than most.
<len-1304> you have been willing to assign others to do things.
<len-1304> I personally think these qualities are more valuable than expertise
<zequence> len-1304: Thanks for the condidence. I truly do try to see the problem from the community point of view, and hopefully I can fill Scotts shoes and continue making US an even better OS
<len-1304> I think your idea to grow the team and the time spent doing so are worth while as lack of people is the biggest problem
<zequence> Yeah, all though we haven't done a lot of public posts about that yet, we have had a few people coming by, but most people don't stick around
<zequence> I'm getting more pleased with the wiki now, which probably is not the most important part of the puzzle, but if I know all the relevant info is there, I will feel more confident when actively hunting for new users
<zequence> devs, I mean
<len-1304> I think people are impatient, nothing happens quickly here.
<zequence> I don't know
<len-1304> Well, my last fix did... two days fromfix to release :)
<zequence> Someone comes by and says, what can I do? I tell them, first, get a LP account. Read this page. Come back tomorrow. Just some initial info. But, if they don't have the motivation, which is perfectly understandable, it's just hard to get any further than that
<zequence> I think we were really lucky having madeinkobaia come by
<zequence> I think he's really talented, and gets stuff done really quick
<len-1304> yes
<len-1304> I would really like to see at least one person for each of video,graphics, photography and publishing too.
<zequence> len-1304: I agree
<zequence> And those people don't need to do any coding at all. Just use the apps, and be able to communicate what should be changed, or improved
<len-1304> Some one who uses the software on a daily basis 
<len-1304> Yes.
<len-1304> I see our job as assembling a group of packages and talking to those who do the coding about how they could make their package fit with what people are using it for.
<zequence> Yeah. Either the problem is in packaging, and then we first fix it in Debian, or as a last resort add a patch in Ubuntu, or we get things changed/fixed upstream
<zequence> falktx: Would you be interested in developing either your existing control gui tool, or a variant of it in collaboration with us, getting feedback about possible features, design ideas, etc
<zequence> ?
<falktx> zequence: I'm already pretty busy as is, so I would prefer not to start brand new applications
<falktx> I just want to finish those that I have now, and finally get a real job...
<zequence> falktx: What I'm aiming at is getting a control app, that is useful on any Debian derived distro, to adjust certain configs, enable/disble things. 
<zequence> I have a project of my own 
<zequence> But, it seems a lot of work reinveinting the wheel all the time
<falktx> zequence: that's my target too, configure most things auto-related
<zequence> falktx: Let me give you an overview of the features that we've been talking about some day, and see what you think
<falktx> btw, please see this - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Cadence
<falktx> it's incomplete, but the screenshots reveal what the app does
<zequence> falktx: Yeah, I've tried it a few times :)
<zequence> And been on that page
<zequence> falktx: Did it perhaps mess up some LV2 variables a while ago? Just asking
<falktx> not that I know
<falktx> there was a case of a user that installed cadence and later didn't uninstall correctly
<falktx> but it's fixed now with "make uninstall"
<zequence> Well, that could be it. I installed it from your PPA
<falktx> not an issue on package distros though
<zequence> ..the last time
<falktx> well, I didn't got any report from you... :)
<zequence> sigh, if I was making bug reports about everything I see, I would never get anything else done :(
<falktx> use less apps
<falktx> I do report the errors I find, usually in person
<zequence> The problem is, sometimes you don't know what caused an error, and when. And to find out, you need to put time into it, even before you make the bug report
<zequence> I make bug reports when I can
<falktx> zequence: I'm usually online here, so there's no excuse I think
<falktx> I didn't knew about this until now
<zequence> I still dont' know if it was because of Claudioo
<zequence> Cadence, I mean
<falktx> then I also don't know if I should bother, right?
<falktx> :)
<zequence> Well, if I'll make sure to report any bugs I find about Cadence, will you promise to report any bugs you find in Debian/Ubuntu pro audio?
<zequence> And I don't only mean upstream
<falktx> I report them upstream, not debian
<zequence> As that doesn't always help the actual distros
<falktx> heh
<falktx> lol, why not?
<falktx> you can't expect me to simply go over all distros to report 1 bug
<falktx> plus, only the current, development version of Ubuntu usually gets fixed
<zequence> Often I'll start doing some music, like this time I was mixing an album. I find that LV2 plugins are not working. I google it. Never cared about LV2 variabled before. Saw some note about Cadence. Tried fixing it. Didn't work
<zequence> So, I used another distro, cause I just needed to get the mix done
<zequence> I really don't have too little to do
<falktx> you're a weird guy
<zequence> You dont' start filing bug reports when you're in the middle of work
<falktx> heh, but isn't that what opensource is about?
<falktx> we need real live testing to know where things need fixing
<zequence> Sure, when I or someone else actually does some testing
<zequence> That is something I will improve for the next cycle
<falktx> real live usage *is* testing
<zequence> It works best on a clean environment
<zequence> When you have too many variables, you don't want to start bothering people, when you don't know what creates the problem
<falktx> depends on the problem
<falktx> if it's consistent with an action, then report it
<zequence> In any case, you should not claim i do too little. I'm the most active here, probably, and I'm also a full time student, with other interstes as well. I have two bands, and I excercise often
<zequence> If I was a user only, it would be different
<falktx> I never implied you do too little
<falktx> I just think we disagree on reporting bugs
<falktx> in the end it doesn't matter much I guess, since Ubuntu is always a little outdated
<zequence> outdated is not the worst problem. Not working is a much bigger problem
<falktx> and debug builds ;)
<zequence> I can agree that getting jackdbus fixed earlier would have been good. You have probably seen the headache it has caused
<falktx> hm, what headache?
<falktx> you mean, getting it updated?
<zequence> It is fixed now. In -proposed, waiting to be published for both 12.04 and 12.10
<zequence> not updated
<zequence> Fixed
<zequence> It was buggy
<falktx> well it was fixed in upstream directly
<falktx> I worked on it with nedko
<zequence> I remember
<falktx> it would be awesome if jack1.9.9 could be used intead though
<zequence> What's the big benefit?
<zequence> It could be backported
<falktx> you have a real upstream version, so it's much easier to identify problems
<zequence> Doesn't it need updated libs, etc?
<falktx> currently if there's a problem with jack, it will simply not be supported upstream
<zequence> Updated deps..
<falktx> because Ubuntu is using a custom version
<falktx> zequence: there's no special requirement for 1.9.9
<falktx> it can now do opus instead of celt, but that's an optional new thing
<zequence> Well, my only goal was to silence the bug, with as little effort as possible. If someone else did that, the result might be better
<zequence> At least, it won't crash on stop anymore, in a few days from now
<falktx> cool, that's nice for sure :)
<falktx> that bug bothered me as hell for some time
<zequence> The next one I want to fix is PA not letting go of the card, which is another big pain
<len-1304> falktx, re. jack and opus. how open is that?... wrong way to ask. If I have jack at one end how easy is it to use another app at the other?
<falktx> len-1304: heh, no idea, I never used netjack
<falktx> I only have 1 pc
<len-1304> zequence, you mean in 12.04/12.10? seems to me it is fixed 13.04
<zequence> len-1304: yes
<zequence> 12.04 will still be important for some time. At least until 14.04 is out
<len-1304> falktx, there is a real lack in the broadcast contribution transport area with stuff that will talk directly to jack
<len-1304> zequence, I agree.
<len-1304> and I mean using any codec, but opus would probably be the best one to use
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<zequence> madeinkobaia: hi
<madeinkobaia> Hi, how are you ?
<zequence> Fine. 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Do you subscribe to our -devel mail list?
<madeinkobaia> Yes, but I didn't read it yet
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Well, the big news of the day is that Scott is steppinf down as lead
<zequence> scott-work: Say hi to madeinkobaia :)
<zequence> He came along recently, and did some really nice work on a google+ banner
<zequence> scott-work: You may have noticed, I appointed him art lead. 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: He's probably busy right now
<madeinkobaia> Well, no problems : )
<zequence> bbl. Gotta fix a chair with some glue and nails
<madeinkobaia> I added to the branch (drafts folder) the (final) versions for the g+ banner, 3 color variations.
<madeinkobaia> Any feedbacks are welcome : )
<scott-work> hi madeinkobaia , glad you are here :)
<madeinkobaia> Many thanks Scott ! I really enjoy to work with you all now, that makes my day :) 
<madeinkobaia> Don't pay attention to my English, it is far from be perfect, I will do my best for that and the rest :)
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Ah, great. You did some variations with the slogan
<madeinkobaia> Yes I fixed some stuffs (see the working notes) and play with some colors : )
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Ok, you decreased the spacing. I really like the orange, but it's not something we've done before. And also makes you think of Ubuntu vanilla
<zequence> The blue is really nice too, all though it doesn't stick out as much. 
<madeinkobaia> Ok
<zequence> I do think it was a great idea to add some color. It made a huge difference
<zequence> So, I would /win50
<zequence> sorry :)
<madeinkobaia> Sorry for ask zequence, I see you twice on IRC with blue and maroon colors, what does its means ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: You mean, my nick is colored blue and maroon?
<madeinkobaia> yep
<zequence> hehe
<zequence> Here are the two examples if anyone else wants to see http://ubuntuone.com/4cArN4iCygcRbJDFASYq7l, http://ubuntuone.com/4hAMQMIOZR8tTGgWjVl9gf
<zequence> Well, IMO, the orange is somehow better, but if we were to make a quick choice, I would rather not choose it out of respect for tradition, and therefore rather go with blue. This I guess is my opinion right now
<zequence> I think it would be interesting to look at maybe using a different color scheme for Ubuntu Studio in the future. That would probably take some time to decide about, at least for me :)
<madeinkobaia> I am agree, the branding setup color is really important (even if My preference goes to the orange one, more "funky"...) but we should have a global reflection on the color branding...when we have the time ;)
<zequence> Yeah, exactly
<zequence> Great
<madeinkobaia> So Blue or White...
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I say blue, definitely
<zequence> I was just trying the same image on my own facebook profile, so it seems to work quite nicely there too. It gets a bit cropped
<zequence> But, that's up to you really
<madeinkobaia> I am a little hurry now, if you have no objections I will test the banner on my g+ account tomorrow...its always better for see how the blue interact with the context, we don't have to forget that we will use the same for FB...
<madeinkobaia> Have you got a link to your FB ?
<zequence> https://www.facebook.com/xequential
<madeinkobaia> Thanks
<madeinkobaia> Seems good :)
<zequence> Yeah :)
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Let me know when you're satisfied, and I'll publish both. I'll take the same opportunity to introduce you to the community
<madeinkobaia> One important think for a good result its not re-compressed the picture (I have to tell that to our web-master)...that ruins the result, and we don't anyway paying the bandwidth on g+ and FB ; )
<zequence> I'm totally stupid when it comes to those things
<madeinkobaia> I know the size is a little bit heavy but under the ratio I chose that pixellized 
<madeinkobaia> I will tell that to our web-master, I forget his name...its important
<zequence> knome, ah
<zequence> You mean our website, right?
<madeinkobaia> The person who s manage the all stuff for internet...I don't know who will put the picture on g+ and FB...is it knome ?
<zequence> No, that will be me
<zequence> knome is the designer of our website theme
<madeinkobaia> ok
<zequence> We have a public relations team, that are supposed to be in charge of all the sites, in different ways, but it's not all organized yet
<madeinkobaia> Ok I understand now
<zequence> I have access to everything, except our community G+ page and twitter so far
<zequence> scott-work: Speaking of that, would you mind making me admin of those? :)
<zequence> Well, really, the PR team should probably only worry about posting, I gues
<zequence> We have a website team as well
<madeinkobaia> Well, I must leave now...see you all tomorrow (I am a little bit hurry sorry)
<madeinkobaia> See you Kaj
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Ok, see you 
<madeinkobaia> :)
<zequence> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<scott-work> zequence: i think you are already admin of g+ and facebook, i'll look at twitter this week
<zequence> scott-work: Not the community g+ page though, only the "page"
<zequence> At least, I think..
<scott-work> oh, yeah, i did the "ubuntustudio" account, not the community. will do that as well
<zequence> len-1304: I wrote a blog post about the change in leadership, that I was thinking you might miss otherwise http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<zequence> Been a long day. Catch you guys tomorrow
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-02
<Len-nb> zequence, good post.
<astraljava> Grats zequence!
<ttoine> zequence, I just read your blog post
<ttoine> congratulations
<zequence> astraljava: ttoine Thanks :)
<zequence> ttoine: I could volunteer to help translate your article btw
<zequence> ttoine: I was thinking even just making a quick google translation, and then adjusting the text from that would be a good start
<ttoine> zequence, this is not the good way to do it.
<ttoine> I just need a bit of time to do it, and then, we will have to find a good technical english native for the proof read
<zequence> ttoine: I'm sure I can do that. My English is pretty decent, and just having a second pair of eyes makes a big difference
<ttoine> sure. but in my experience, Google translate may be good for one word, it is not good at all for sentences
<zequence> ttoine: Either you translate, or google does. If google does, there will be many mistakes, but it's still possible to correct 90% of the text that way. The remaining 10% I would ask you about
<zequence> Since I don't undersand French, it's impossible for me do the actual translation. I can however edit the text
<zequence> I'm wondering if it would be good idea to start a separate Ubuntu Studio blog for things like this
<zequence> bbl - going for a run
<zequence> ttoine: Where was the link to your article in French now again?
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Hi
<madeinkobaia> Hi Kaj, I made some tests on my G+ with the banner
<zequence> What did you think?
<madeinkobaia> In fact the bad surprise is that G+ is re-compress any banner picture added. (I told you yesterday about this problem), that means
<madeinkobaia> My picture have a size of +-700 ko, G+ seems to have a limit of +- 100 ko, that new compression affect the quality of the picture, 
<zequence> I can respect your aim at making it look really nice and proffesional, but perhaps we'll just have to make a small compromise? I really don't know much about image formats and conversions, et
<madeinkobaia> Sure Kaj, I am a little bit perfectionist : / that's a good and bad I know
<madeinkobaia> Do you have the time now for looking at the result on my G+ profile ?
<zequence> The same here, all though, I'm not as sensitive as you about images, that much I have seen. And I realize why you are so good at what you do
<zequence> madeinkobaia: sure
<madeinkobaia> https://plus.google.com/u/0/112937756282972852089/posts
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Looks fine to me, and I
<zequence> I'm looking from a LCD 42 inch TV
<madeinkobaia> ok, which is your resolution ?
<zequence> 1920x1080
<madeinkobaia> Well, is it possible for you to make a screen-shot and to put it in the branch or send me (if you have the time)
<madeinkobaia> ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: sure, but I'll just share it online
<madeinkobaia> ok great, its for see how G+ crop the picture on various resolutions (I ve got a 1440x900 here)
<smartboyhw> Hello zequence
<zequence> madeinkobaia: http://imagebin.org/252525
<zequence> smartboyhw: Hi
<smartboyhw> And hellp to our Art Lead madeinkobaia;)
<smartboyhw> s/hellp/hello
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<zequence> madeinkobaia: smartboyhw is our release manager. He's 14 years old from Hong Kong. He will be responsible for making sure our ISOs pass tests and are released
<madeinkobaia> Ok, I read that in devl-mail, glad to meet him
<smartboyhw> Eh I wanted to have a chat with Scott:(
<smartboyhw> zequence: Aren't you supposed to do the Beta 2 testing announcement for me?;*
<zequence> smartboyhw: You should try emailing him.
<smartboyhw> Ouch wrong face
<smartboyhw> It's ;)
<madeinkobaia> lol, ok I brb
<zequence> smartboyhw: Where is the beta2?
<smartboyhw> Or isn't the Beta 2 this week?
<smartboyhw> ?????
<zequence> It is to be released on 4th
<smartboyhw> Hmm weird
<smartboyhw> Gah that's weird
<smartboyhw> Asked the release team
<ttoine> zequence, http://lite.framapad.org/p/5n3kYagDQA
<ttoine> zequence, don't hesitate to translate on the same tool/page, but please, could create a new part/section ?
<zequence> ttoine: Ok
<zequence> ttoine: I started working on it a little
<zequence> ttoine: I'll let you know when I've done as much as I can, and marked some problem areas
<madeinkobaia> zaquence : About the banners, I found the solution :  save the picture as .png, the result seems really good, I made some tests on FB, works fine too ! 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Ah, ok. I did have a suspicion that png might be a better format than jpg
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, I will have to create some goodies (baseball caps, mugs, t-shirt)
<ttoine> is there some artwork I can use for that ?
<madeinkobaia> zequence :ok
<zequence> Yes, ttoine is working on some merchandise, so that would certainly be a task suitable for madeinkobaia to decide on artwork for it
<madeinkobaia> No problems for me !
<zequence> We haven't yet decided on how to finance it yet, so it's a bit early, but one can of course develope the ideas already
<madeinkobaia> zequence  : ok
<madeinkobaia> zequence : About the banners we can consider that they are now finished I think, as we said the blue version seems to be the best one. So I put them in the branch now in two new folders "social-networks_googleplus" and "social-networks_facebook"...what do you think ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Sounds good
<madeinkobaia> great :)
<madeinkobaia> I do that now and I will be back later. See you all !
<zequence> ok, bye :)
<ttoine> zequence, I don't think it is really important to finance it. My aim would be to find a website capable of producing "per order", but in good quality.
<ttoine> zequence, http://www.spreadshirt.fr/gamme-de-produit-C2107
<ttoine> I think I find what we need
<ttoine> zequence, last point: what about the @ubuntustudio.org email addresses ? I saw some stuff about that, but is it working ?
<zequence> ttoine: Not the last time I checked. I've forgotten about it since
<ttoine> zequence, me too ;-)
<ttoine> zequence, I just phoned spreadshirt.net: this is possible to create a shop for Ubuntu Studio, and they can produce items one by one, and deliver accross the world
<ttoine> no need to finance anything, just provide artwork and select what we want in our shop
<ttoine> I now have to send an email to the legal dpt of Spreadshirt to check that everything's ok
<zequence> ttoine: Oh. That's pretty cool
<smartboyhw> What is cool?
 * smartboyhw does not have any backlog for this
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I have to check about legal stuff
<ttoine> but we may soon have a spreadshirt.com shop for Ubuntu Studio.
<smartboyhw> XDX-
<smartboyhw> Can I get one shirt myself for free? lol
<ttoine> smartboyhw, for free no... but they are able to print oone by one, and deliver everywhere
<ttoine> with good quality
<ttoine> and first, I will buy myself every stuff to check the quality !
<smartboyhw> :( I don't have money
<ttoine> smartboyhw, let me first set up that... we will see after for us
<smartboyhw> lol
<ttoine> ;-)
<smartboyhw_> zequence, the milestone has been created on the ISO QA Tracker. Please help to do the announcement since I need to sleep
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Ok. Thanks
<smartboyhw_> zequence make sure you send it to both user and devel mailing lists , and also ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com (the main QA team mail list)
<smartboyhw_> Good night.
<zequence> Len-nb: We should have a look at ardour and lv2. There seems to be some bugs around that. I think the lv2 guis are not working on some releases
<zequence> ttoine: Do you know anything about this?
<zequence> Here's a bunch of info that las has gathered from users over time http://manual.ardour.org/setting-up-your-system/platform-specifics/ubuntu-linux/#gsc.tab=0
<ttoine> zequence, I now that there are some bugs with some LV2 gui but not all
<ttoine> and it depends too of the restricted driver if they use OpenGl for rendering, like gverb
<zequence> ttoine: I see
<ttoine> I am pretty sure that this is ok with most LV2 in 12.04 and 12.10, in Ardour and in Mixbus
<ttoine> but for Ardour, as I use the one in kxstudio, I can not confirm if the default in our repos works well or not
<ttoine> however, I am sure that some gui are brocken whatever version you are using.
<ttoine> for this reason, I use only Calf and Invada in production
<ttoine> and of course, harrison and linuxdsp lv2 plugins, as I own the licenses
<zequence> I bought some linux DSP plugins. one guy involved in those had something bad to say about support on Ubuntu, but I've had no problems so far
<ttoine> zequence, it would be interessant to ask calf developpers if they can create mono version of their plugins
<ttoine> zequence, there is a problem on low resolutions screen, or not well configured screens because the linuxdsp have auto resize depending on screen dimension and dpi
<zequence> ttoine: Strange
<ttoine> zequence, but for linuxdsp, the issue is documented in the readme, or something like that
<zequence> I see
<ttoine> actually, the GUI rendering of the lv2 plugins is very different from one to one, depending of the developper choice
<ttoine> zequence, http://blog.ttoine.net/2013/01/28/harrison-mixbus-et-ubuntu-12-04-chez-azarecord/
<ttoine> if you look at gverb in the screenshot of this post, you will see an openGL layout bug
<ttoine> this happends only with one version of the AMD driver. It does not happends at all with nvidia, intel or other AMD drivers
<zequence> ttoine: Ok. But, I think the main problem is on some releases, that there's no LV2 gui at all. Looks just like ladspa
<zequence> I haven't really used that many plugins on many releases to really have a good idea of this though
<zequence> I usually only use a few
<ttoine> zequence, yes, I already see that too
<ttoine> I think that on 12.04 and 12.10 it is fixed
<madeinkobaia> zequence : I have a message "<AUTO-REPLY> :  not here ..." from our other discussion, don't know what it means : /
<madeinkobaia> You're still here ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-03
<zequence> card reservation bugfix for PA, patch-ified
<zequence> uploaded to PPA. Will test tomorrow
<zequence> Hopefully, that will be hitting the "stores" withing the next couple of weeks
<smartboyhw> zequence: What sort of things has changed in between Beta 1 and Beta 2?
<smartboyhw> Bah, we only have 31 hours fo testinf
<smartboyhw> s/testinf/testing/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "Bah, we only have 31 hours fo testing"
<zequence> smartboyhw: Right now, all I can think of is a new kernel, new -default-settings, out of the Ubuntu Studio specific updates
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll have a look at that in a couple of hours. I'll be leaving to school in a momen (1 1/2 hours in a bus)
<smartboyhw> zequence: School!?
<zequence> I'm a student currently :)
<zequence> Ok, need to go. bb in two hours
<smartboyhw> ............
<smartboyhw> Anyways
<smartboyhw> astraljava: You here? Please help me to update the topics
 * smartboyhw really needs to ask the IRC Council to add op rights to zequence and him
<smartboyhw> zequence: Looking at the linux-lowlatency LP page, aren't you also responsible for maintaining Raring kernels?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Not yet
<zequence> smartboyhw: May I give you advice for the future :). Don't put blame on other people too quickly. It usually never adds up to anything good
<smartboyhw> zequence: So you only do SRU kernels?
<zequence> Yes
<smartboyhw> And sorry for putting you to blame
<smartboyhw> Nice info on the links BTW
<zequence> It's ok. I will need to get used to that anyway
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think doing the upgrades today is bettee
<zequence> I'll do as many tests as I can once I get home. I'm sure we'll get through all of them in time
<smartboyhw> zequence: why?
<zequence> smartboyhw: As a lead, you are outmost responsible. Which often means, when something goes wrong, the responsible people get blamed
<zequence> This is a small project, so not much storms here
<zequence> It's different when you're a known politician, or a CEO of a company
<smartboyhw> zequence: So what big ones will you want to join in the future?
<zequence> Only Debian, probably. I'll do Ubuntu Studio for as long as  I'm needed. Then, I'll start focusing more on Debian
<zequence> I don't expect to work for any company like Canonical, but one never knows. Probably I will either work as a musician, or doing something with computers here in Sweden
<zequence> smartboyhw: What are your plans for the future?
<smartboyhw> I will try to find technical jobs. Google and Canonical are my targets
<smartboyhw> zequence: I just don't like to work in Microsoft lol
<smartboyhw> And BTW I've done the Beta 2 release notes!!!
<zequence> My sister has been asked to accept Google interviews twice already. She declined both times.
<smartboyhw> It is in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/Beta2/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> They do active head hunting, sending emails to people who they find interesting
<smartboyhw> zequence: Why?
<smartboyhw> Google has the best work environment
<zequence> Wasn't the right period in her life. But, if she is asked again next year, she might do it
<smartboyhw> Oh OK
<zequence> She's been studying computanional linguistics a lot. A bit of AI stuff. Took her PhD in Switzerland, where she's living now
<smartboyhw> zequence: Speaking of falktx, is it that you are planning for something to enable the WHOLE fxstudio repo?
<smartboyhw> at install-time
<zequence> No, but I think Scott had some ideas around that
<smartboyhw> o
<smartboyhw> It would be bad, since fxstudio uses KDE
<zequence> Personally, I don't think adding PPAs is a good thing, but it might be suitable for some applications that Ubuntu does not distribute, like linux-sampler
<zequence> In that case, we should have our own repo for that
<zequence> KXStudio is its own distro after all
 * smartboyhw agrees
<smartboyhw> However I think our final target is to get all of them into the Ubuntu repos
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is Ubuntu. And we should work closely with the community. Fix problems upstream. Not only locally
<zequence> Which means, we sometimes need to fix things in Debian
<zequence> as well as communicate with usptream developers directly
<smartboyhw> yep
<zequence> The most local sort of fix, is when it only exists in your computer. I'll want fixes to be as global as possible. But, there are differences between Debian and Ubuntu, and sometimes, you'll need to fix thing locally on one repo. Realtime privilege is one thing that we fix locally on the Ubuntu Studio flavor - and we shouldn't need to
<zequence> The most global fix is when it happens in the upstream application source
<zequence> But, if it's a critical bug fix, it might also need to be implemented locally on both Debian and Ubuntu, separately
<smartboyhw> +1
<smartboyhw> zequence: Would it be possible for us to get op rights (or rights to change topic) in here?
<zequence> smartboyhw: You'll need to become member of the ops team. There's some info on the wiki about that
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think the important changes are when we do actual releases. Of course, having old info on development releases is no good
<zequence> For me it would be enought to change the topics every half a year
<smartboyhw> zequence: No in this channel
<smartboyhw> There's no such team to regulate it
<zequence> no?
<zequence> Then, I don't know how it works :)
<zequence> Maybe astraljava knows?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am asking about it in #ubuntu-irc
<astraljava> Yeah I think you needed to request to become -irc-ops, and in my case I think there was just a subset for ubuntustudio-, could have been xubuntu- as well (but I forget now).
<zequence> astraljava: Ah, so if you're in the -dev team, you'd get rights for this channel?
<smartboyhw> zequence: That's interesting..... 
<falktx> hm, really?
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Would you please add "13.04 Beta 2 testing in progress" to the end of the chan topic in here please:)
<astraljava> zequence: Err... no? I'm fairly sure you had to do it individually. But it might have changed since.
* astraljava changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Ubuntu Studio 13.04 Beta 1 Released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/13.04/beta-1 | 13.04 Beta 2 testing in
<astraljava> grrr... too long.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Can we take out the beta-1 released news?
* astraljava changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Ubuntu Studio 13.04 Beta 2 testing in progress
<astraljava> Let me know if you want it changed, I'm off home.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: It's OK
<ttoine> zequence, i am chatting with spreadshirt legal dpt to check if I can use the merchandising license on their website
<smartboyhw> ttoine: \o/
<zequence> ttoine: It would be nice to know more about how that works
<ttoine> zequence, I will need some artwork asap
<zequence> ttoine: I'd rather we decide the artwork in good time first :)
<zequence> I don't think there's any big hurry. More important that we do it well, I think
<zequence> I still don't know much about this, business wise
<ttoine> zequence, i don't need artwork to launch production tomorrow
<zequence> ttoine: I'm on their website now. Which kind of deal were you thinking of doing with them?
<ttoine> I just need some "sample" so they can validate this is possible
<zequence> I'd very much like to know the business part of this before anything else
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia isn't here....
<ttoine> the business part ?
<zequence> I see there are three options, designer, open a shop, become a business partner
<zequence> ttoine: It is a business, isn't it?
<zequence> spreadshirt, that is
<ttoine> zequence, yes
<ttoine> but as any supplier I would ask to produce stuff
<ttoine> for us, they are just providing service
<zequence> ttoine: Could you be more specific? What kind of deal is this? Where can I read more about it?
<zequence> ttoine: If I start here, where would I go? http://www.spreadshirt.com/start-selling-shirts-C3598
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Are you actually chatting with Spreadshirt NOW?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, by mail
<ttoine> email
<smartboyhw> Oh OK
<ttoine> zequence, first, I have to check the licences issues. If both Canonical and SpreadShirt are ok, then I can create the Ubuntu Studio shop
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I called them by phone, too
<zequence> ttoine: Ok, so it's about creating a shop
<zequence> I just want to read about it, that's all
<ttoine> http://www.spreadshirt.com/open-free-tshirt-shop-C3600
<zequence> ttoine: We need to talk with madeinkobaia about making artwork samples
<ttoine> zequence, yes, it was my idea: spreadshirt actually provide that as a service. nothing to pay in advance, they produce only when ordered by customer, deliver everywhere
<ttoine> we just have to select what we want to sell
<zequence> But, that also depends on what objects we need art for
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Does Spreadshirt only help to sell shirts?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, on spreadshirt, you can buy mugs, etc. too
<ttoine> I am not sure if the whole range is available in custom shops
<smartboyhw> Ah good. I was worrying about thay:)
<zequence> ttoine: I'm guessing that they keep all the profits, and we just provide them with products?
<smartboyhw> How much profit do we (Ubuntu Studio Team) take
<zequence> They had samsung phone covers. I'm kind of keen on getting a mug myself
<zequence> smartboyhw: We don't need profit, but it is good to know the details
<smartboyhw> And will Canonical want profit?
<zequence> We don't work for profit. It's just that, business deals are business deals
<zequence> smartboyhw: no
<zequence> If we do get profit, that is actually a little problematic
<smartboyhw> zequence: I'm not sure about Canonical
<smartboyhw> They seem to get more and more profitized
<zequence> smartboyhw: Not concerning the Ubuntu Studio trademark
<smartboyhw> ok
<zequence> And, I disagree. They were always like this. The difference is, now, they are being more in control of software development
<smartboyhw> Oh.
<ttoine> zequence, actually, if I would make a business, Spreadshirt would tell what is the price of the product. then, I should set the amount of margin I want. For us, it is 0 (zero)
<smartboyhw> But the strange thing is: How would the Ubuntu Studio team be called under the agreement?
<ttoine> then, the customer add the delivery cost
<zequence> ttoine: Ok. Sounds good
<ttoine> canonical don't want profit
<ttoine> that's the purpose of the licence
<ttoine> zequence, I agree with you, they have always been very careful about profit, brand uses, etc. the change is just about the software management developement
<smartboyhw> zequence: Hmm should I change the Ubuntu Studio origin in DistroWatch from "USA" to "Sweden"? 
<smartboyhw> Just a jokr
<smartboyhw> zequence: I just hope that ogra's April Fools Day joke won't happen in the future
<zequence> smartboyhw: No, I think the origin of Ubuntu Studio belongs in USA, as it was started there :)
<ttoine> smartboyhw, actually, the origin is french and canadian
<zequence> It is?
<smartboyhw> Why?
<ttoine> zequence, me and a canadian user, before Kory took the lead
<zequence> ttoine: Oh. We should probably write down some history about this, so people know how it all happened :)
<ttoine> but the distribution really started at the UDS of november 2006, at google headquarters, where the early contributers have been invited
<zequence> I guess the origin should be international then
<ttoine> (including me)
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<ttoine> actually, Ubuntu Studio started from a wiki page
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Google Headquarters!?!!?!??
<ttoine> the UbuntuStudioPreparation page on the help wiki
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> Interesting
<ttoine> we where all music enthusiast
<zequence> ttoine: If an organization would be made, as we discussed (but doesn't seem nessecary now), in France, then the origin would be France. But, we are really from all over the world, we who work at this right now
<ttoine> and the first name would have been Mubuntu for Music Ubuntu
<ttoine> zequence, writing a bit of history is not the same as writing where is the address of the organisation
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Can't find that page
<ttoine> the mubuntu name was already kept by another project, something like Micro Ubuntu, so we decided to take the name of the wiki page
<zequence> ttoine: I'm quite aware of that. We are discussing two subjects in paralell
<ttoine> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation
<smartboyhw> Ah I missed community
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I still doing my best to maintain this page since 2006
<smartboyhw> woe
<smartboyhw> s/woe/wow/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "wow"
<ttoine> the co author of the first page quit in 2007, because he realised that is Ubuntu was very popular, he dislike the Canonical vision. and so he returned to Debian Multimedia
<smartboyhw> oh
<ttoine> smartboyhw, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation?action=info
<smartboyhw> ttoine: When did you leave the team (for a while)?
<ttoine> is you look at the bottom, you will find the nickname of this guy, he actually created this wiki page
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I don't know. actually, I always followed, tested, reported bugs and so on even when "off"
<smartboyhw> :)
<ttoine> my real come back was when Scott took the lead. For me, the worst thing ever for Ubuntu Studio was the lead of Cory
<smartboyhw> ?
 * smartboyhw does not know anything pre-Scott Era
<ttoine> smartboyhw, but when I attend to my Ubuntu membership, it has been noticed that I was off too much time ;-)
<smartboyhw> ttoine 5
<smartboyhw> Why did I type 5?
<smartboyhw> Anyways try rerunning sooner or laterâ¦
<zequence> This would be the first revision https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation?action=recall&rev=1
<smartboyhw> yep
<smartboyhw> Lot shorter compared to the current one
<ttoine> smartboyhw, in short, I disagreed completely with Cory objectives. He was centered around his own needs, not on the user needs. Imho, Scott put Ubuntu Studio on the good way
<smartboyhw> Hmm....
<smartboyhw> zequence: Are you in the team already at that time?
<ttoine> At that time, I didn't had time enough to lead Ubuntu Studio... it is still the case today :-)
<ttoine> so I am here
<ttoine> still here ;-)
<smartboyhw> lol
<zequence> smartboyhw: I started hanging out here about 2-3 years ago
<smartboyhw> That's in Cory's Era I think, right?
<zequence> I'd very much like to have votes on who will be the next lead. But, I want to make the team bigger first
<ttoine> smartboyhw, of course, notice that there is less stuff to do: most of things are working out of the box now. but at the beginning, I spent all my free time to boost developper so they can fix major bugs and package working versions
<smartboyhw> +1
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Jeez that's hard
<ttoine> zequence, for me, you are the natural lead at the moment. Scott did a brilliant choice
<zequence> ttoine: Thanks :)
<ttoine> smartboyhw, think that I am not a all a developer. I can"t package...
<ttoine> by the way, I hosted the first ever real time kernel for Ubuntu, back in 2005, on my server ;-)
<ttoine> it was before PPA
<ttoine> smartboyhw, think that I am not a all a developer. I can"t package...
<ttoine> * smartboyhw has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
<ttoine> <ttoine> by the way, I hosted the first ever real time kernel for Ubuntu, back in 2005, on my server ;-)
<ttoine> <ttoine> it was before PPA
<smartboyhw> ttoine: It's difficult to push people in packaginf OK apps
<smartboyhw> Whoa
<ttoine> I think the hardest stuff was to get sound card firmware working, with the help of Medibuntu, alsa dev, etc...
<ttoine> I can tell I managed that ;-)
<smartboyhw> Actually is Medibuntu still active these days?
<ttoine> they provide updated packages for every new release. they still host libdvdcss
<ttoine> but hosting alsa-firmware is not needed. there is a better version in kxstudio
<smartboyhw> ttoine: falktx will be happy hearing this
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I think he already know that I enjoy his work a lot ;-)
<smartboyhw> One workitem I will add to the S or permanent blueprint is to investigate the rebirth of the -rt kernel in Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> ttoine: :)
<ttoine> the rebirth ? what do you mean ?
<smartboyhw> Well the linux-rt package isnt in 12.10 or 13.04
<ttoine> smartboyhw, if you are rewriting the wikipedia page, or history page about Ubuntu Studio you can tell that it was really created at the November 2006 UDS, at Google Headquarters
<zequence> The tricky part is not building it, but providing security support for it, especially if the version is not the same that Ubuntu uses
<ttoine> smartboyhw, do we really need a -rt kernel ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Nah but I will spend one day rewriting the wikipedia page too?
<ttoine> the -rt kernel is intended for industrial use, actually. and most trials I did in time with the -lowlatency kernel where good enough
<zequence> I'm not against creating a -rt kernel again, but not to replace -lowlatency. It would be an addition
<ttoine> zequence, I agree
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Some people like -rt more than -lowlatency. If we can provide them with it it satisfies them
<smartboyhw> However there will be security issues and indeed manpower issues
<ttoine> cookies time at the office kitchen, bbl
<zequence> Time to go home for me. See you guys later
<smartboyhw> I would rather us to have an -rt kernel for LTS releases
<zequence> I guess I should think about how I'm going to do tests tonight
<ttoine> smartboyhw, don't care too much about security issues. someone using -rt kernel in production will not let the computer connected to internet or in a public place
<smartboyhw> zequence: Um do the upgrades first?
<smartboyhw> ttoine: reason?
<ttoine> smartboyhw, in any studio, no production workstation is connected. When it works, don't fix it
<ttoine> even apple workstations, etc.
<zequence> ttoine: I don't think that covers the whole community of users. Rather only the studio production machine, and I would think most people do not user their PC in that way
<smartboyhw> Anyway that's still a discussion:)
<zequence> Ok, going now :)
<smartboyhw> Grrrr
<smartboyhw> Hey madeinkobaia
<smartboyhw> ttoine wants some art for merchandise
<ttoine> zequence, of course ;-) I just meant that people who use -rt kernel are often needing full performance of their computer, and this is not the need of average users
<madeinkobaia> Hi all, hello smartboyhw :)
<smartboyhw> ttoine: And why would full performance users need no internet?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, meet madeinkobaia, our new Artwork Lead
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, meet ttoine, the PR guy working on Ubuntu Studio merchandise
<madeinkobaia> Hi ttoine :) 
<ttoine> smartboyhw, when you are not using your pc for music, it is better to use the -generic kernel. of course, on a laptop, but on workstation too
<ttoine> hi, madeinkobaia 
<smartboyhw> ttoine: talk to madeinkobaia about the merchandise art you need:)
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : you can explain that quickly here and write a detailed description of the project in the art branch, also as french is my native language as you, don't hesitate on private to speak with me "en franÃ§ais" : )
<smartboyhw> XD
<smartboyhw> Strange there
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia and ttoine are French
<smartboyhw> holstein and len-dt (plus ScottL) is American
<smartboyhw> zequence is Swedish while I am Chinese
<madeinkobaia> I am Belgian, but french speaking :D
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Dam I forgotten that
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, ah super, c'est bien de ne plus Ãªtre seul Ã  parler franÃ§ais ;-)
<smartboyhw> Uh oh French time
<madeinkobaia> nevermind, smart :)
<ttoine> smartboyhw, ;-)
 * smartboyhw escapes
<ttoine> no in english it is ok.
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, actually, I would need at least one generic stuff we could print on t-shirt and mugs
<madeinkobaia> ttoine :  ok
<ttoine> so, maybe, some cmyk artwork, with icc profile if any, and cmyk or pantone color for our blue
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : ok, no problems for the technical specifications, do you have a graphical design idea or made ?
<ttoine> keep it simple
<ttoine> and maybe, have a look to ubuntu official merch'
<madeinkobaia> Shoud it be a generic design, I mean no specifications of a released version on it, just Ubuntu Studio + logo ?
<smartboyhw> zequence: we don't exactly need a #ubuntustudio-offtopic channel do we? (After seeing micahg' words about things going offtopic in IRC bax
<smartboyhw> s/bax/backlog)/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence: we don't exactly need a #ubuntustudio-offtopic channel do we? (After seeing micahg' words about things going offtopic in IRC backlog)"
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, something like that. so we will not have to respend time at any new release
<smartboyhw> ttoine: I would want something specific for LTS though
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, maybe, it would be interessant that any artwork should be available to enthusiat on our website. I don't know if you already spoke about that with zequence 
<smartboyhw> ttoine: It's in a bzr art
<smartboyhw> s/art/art branch/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "ttoine: It's in a bzr art branch"
<ttoine> smartboyhw, is there a link somewhere on the website explaining where to find our bzr art ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: might be good to create a wiki page though
<smartboyhw> Actually zequence has a template for S in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/Official1310 already
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: friends, we need to speak and fix a lot of things about our branding layout, colors etc... maybe it will be better to re-organize to art aspect before to create a new project, I mean...
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Yeah. Our artwork effort has stopped after 12.04 
<madeinkobaia> tee-shirt printing cost  money, and I would be sure that the print layout is working for a long time, hope I am understandable 
<smartboyhw> The ex-lead went to develop his own distro
<madeinkobaia> ok
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, it doesn"t cost anything, depending how you manage that.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: And you are the one to pick the effort back
<madeinkobaia> ok, in that case no huge problems :D
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, don't think there will be a problem
<ttoine> just create a beautiful thing to print ;-)
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, is graphics your job ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine: +1
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : yep, no problems, I just arrive so I need to feel how that works here, I have personally no doubts that we're gonna do great things : )
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : sure it is :D
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Which Ubuntu Studio release are you actually using?
<madeinkobaia> For the moment no one, six month ago I just keep Debian, but I will of course bring back Ubuntu Studio that I used for years before
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, feel free do it your way
 * ttoine is using Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, not Ubuntu Studio...
 * smartboyhw is using Ubuntu Studio 13.04
<madeinkobaia> ok : )
<madeinkobaia> Ive got also a working PC, Debian is for my internet one.
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, http://blog.ttoine.net/2013/01/28/harrison-mixbus-et-ubuntu-12-04-chez-azarecord/
<ttoine> Unity workstation in a recording studio
<madeinkobaia> Wow, things have greatly been improved. Stunnin' 
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : feel free to visit my homepage too : http://madeinkobaia.deviantart.com/
<madeinkobaia> I am also guitar player and composer. (even if my priority is graphics from 4 years now)
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, if I want to download your background, what should I do ?
<ttoine> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/The+Vu-Meter?content=147278
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: Sorry about wich background you're talking ?
<ttoine> the one on devianart
<zequence> ttoine: I'm actually more leaning towards a unified theme
<zequence> ttoine: We have been discussing this before
<zequence> ttoine: I don't think there's such a big hurry with this now
<zequence> madeinkobaia: ^
<zequence> ttoine: I mean, getting the art ready for t-shirts and mugs
<zequence> ttoine: Unless, we do something quickly and then redo it again later
<ttoine> zequence, it was not for Ubuntu Studio, but more to show the vu-meter background to madeinkobaia 
<zequence> ttoine: I don't understand
<zequence> ttoine: I'm talking about the t-shirts and mugs
<zequence> The most important thing about that art IMO is logo and symbol design. I'd like those to be well thought out first. One could add variety with lots of imagination around that
<zequence> But, it's better to have the branding stuff worked out well first
<zequence> It's of course possible to do lots and lots of versions. In many generations. That could work too
<ttoine> zequence, actually, having a white mug with the logo and ubuntu studio should be enough for a start
<ttoine> At the moment, I need artwork quick in order to setup stuff, not to put them in production
<zequence> ttoine: So, what you are saying it won't be used. It will only be there as an example, right?
<ttoine> zequence, yes
<ttoine> so we can validate example
<ttoine> I can go ahead, and not only wait for madeinkobaia 
<ttoine> once madeinkobaia has released the definitive stuff, we launch the prod'
<zequence> ttoine: Ok, that was the picture I got initially. Sorry for misunderstanding
<zequence> Sounds terriffic
<smartboyhw> \o/
<zequence> So, now on to testing :P
<madeinkobaia> bbl : )
<smartboyhw> \o/
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, /away
<ttoine> bbl
<madeinkobaia> Leave my cooking 2 minutes : D I will create a new folder in the branch and created some basing tee-shirt / mug projects, that will be on line in +- one week
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: \o/
<madeinkobaia> See you tomorrow : )
<em22> hello, darndest thing, but I cant install the beta1...  can you help?
<smartboyhw> zequence: How many tests have you done for Beta 2?
<smartboyhw> em22: Hmm why?
<smartboyhw> What's the problem?
<em22> everything was going fine...  and I was at the repart drives screen, and then I changed my mind, did a revert, did a quit,  then started over...  now installer never advances past the initial Preparing to Install screen.  cursor just spins....   I freaked, thinking disk damaged, but no, everything still boots.
<smartboyhw> eh!?
<em22> I was using a flash...  so I figured, well maybe it saved a setting and that screwed it up.  so then I tried the dvd and got idential result, very strange indeed
<smartboyhw> zequence: Think of a good reason for this?
<smartboyhw> len-1304: ^
<em22> I was using the SOMETHING ELSE install that goes to the manual partition screen.  I've got a dozen partitions and about 5 versiions of linux
<em22> the point where it spins is where it detects if any partitions are currently mounted.
<em22> well, I guess if beta2 is available I could try that
<zequence> download times are really slow from the archive I'm upgrading from
<zequence> These tests will take some time..
<em22_> FYI regarding install problems.  I found an answer over on #ubuntu-installer
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-04
<smartboyhw> zequence, how many tests have you done?
<smartboyhw> len-1304, any spare time to do some testing?
<smartboyhw> bah I can't mark an ISO ready:(
<smartboyhw> Damn the etherpad is too slow to load
<Tm_T> hi
<Tm_T> zequence, smartboyhw: you were in need of ops?
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, well at least I want to be op. I am in constant need to change the topic of channel. zequence is the project lead and hedeserves op rights...
<smartboyhw> zequence, give me a confirmation that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/Beta2/UbuntuStudio is OK.
<smartboyhw> zequence, the amd64 has passed the Mandatory testcases. I am considering to just mark it ready. The post-installation thing will take some time.
<smartboyhw> Especially when the person who tested the install didn't do the live and post-install
<smartboyhw> Almost accidentally deleted the beta 1 announcement:P
<Tm_T> smartboyhw: it was an almost accident that you deleted it? (;
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, actually I accidentally deleted it and I undone the deletion
<smartboyhw> It's back anyway
<smartboyhw> And soon I will want somebody to change chan topics again:(
<Tm_T> (:
<Tm_T> I've been hoping zequence to nudge me so I would handle the rights
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, I want zequence to tell me things too:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, I passed the post-installation for amd64. I will be marking Ubuntu Studio amd64 installation ready.
<smartboyhw> Dinner time
 * smartboyhw wonders where is zequence today
<smartboyhw> zequence, all tests for i386 are complete. I have marked the i386 image ready. In total the installation ones are all ready. However the upgrades are a bit of a problem.
<smartboyhw> !testers-#ubuntustudio-devel is <reply> smartboyhw, len-1304, Len-nb, zequence please help to do some testing
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, approve that:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Upgrading works, but is not perfect. I did two upgrades yesterday.
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. We need to do the ones upgrading from an image.
<smartboyhw> zequence, which arch do you want to do?;P
<smartboyhw> And is the release notes OK?
<smartboyhw> s/is/are/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "And are the release notes OK?"
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, here's zequence:)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Are you going to do one of the upgrade tests? You choose the arch. I can do both, but I need to install Quantal first
<smartboyhw> zequence, me too I need to install Quantal first
<smartboyhw> amd64 for me then
<smartboyhw> zequence, please help to do i386:)
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think you should add that upgrading, while it will work, may introduce some issues to some people. So, upgrading is not the recommended way to install 13.04
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. Later then
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ok. I'll do the i386 then
<zequence> smartboyhw: Looking at how the testing has gone so far, I'm not sure the beta will be released on time
<smartboyhw> zequence, thanks
<smartboyhw> zequence, why?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Cause not everyone is ready yet. And, that is not strange, because of the delay we had
<zequence> But, it does seem like we can make it anyhow
<smartboyhw> zequence, I do agree. Thank God we completed the image ones
<Tm_T> zequence: I could hand the channel founder rights to you and op rights to smartboyhw, is that ok for you?
<zequence> Tm_T: Sounds good
<smartboyhw> +1
<Tm_T> thanks, will do when I arrive home (:
<zequence> Tm_T: Thanks
<smartboyhw> Tm_T, thanks!
<smartboyhw> zequence, updated the release notes.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Looks good :)
<smartboyhw> Now a shower while 12.10 install
<smartboyhw> Back
<smartboyhw> zequence, how's your upgrade testing going?
<len-1304> smartboyhw, sorry, ran out of time last night. Got the live done and have been running the post install test, which is mostly ok too.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I did it already:) However it is good that you do a double-check:)
<len-1304> I do need to do another install though. but it would have to wait a few hours at least
 * len-1304 has to do his days work first
<smartboyhw> len-1304, no worries:)
<len-1304> Anyway, while I would never call things complete, 13.04 seems to finished so far as what we set out to do this cycle.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, +1
<smartboyhw> As zequence says, it's high time we plan for 13.10 (S-cycle)
<len-1304> does it make sense for the settings manager to handle sysadmin as well as settings?
<len-1304> zequence, ^^
<len-1304> The way xubuntu has done their settings manager, some things that logically belong in System are now in the settings manager. In my opinion, if we are going to do that then all the system stuff should be there.
<len-1304> or none of it.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I think we should stick to Xubuntu.
<smartboyhw> Now is the time of reality of upgrades
<len-1304> Menu settings will upgrade gracefully, they are not like panel settings :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, my test is done and is OK I think. No GTK error here
<smartboyhw> s/GTK/LightDM GTK Greeter/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence, my test is done and is OK I think. No LightDM GTK Greeter error here"
<len-1304> However, it does not make sense that software install is in settings as an example.
<len-1304> If I was to move the few remaining System apps into the settings manager things would be more consistent and make more sense.
<len-1304> The settings manager already has a System area in  it, and I think that if there was no System submenu, people would automatically choose the setting manager as the place to look for system kinds of things.
<len-1304> In my daily use of xubuntu, I have found that I often look in the wrong place for a system tool, it might be in settings or it might be in settings.
<smartboyhw> !?
<smartboyhw> "it might be in settings or it might be in settings!?"
<len-1304> sorry one of those should be system
<zequence> I think probably user settings should be in settings, and system wide settings in system
<len-1304> Ok, so not like xubuntu then
<zequence> I'm also asking myself if Xubuntu works with XFCE on making any changes on the settings manager
<len-1304> The settings manager is really just a menu. It has a menu file just like the main menu.
<zequence> ok
<zequence> Cause that is more like a mix of things
<len-1304> The problem is that a lot of system apps include settings as a category.
<zequence> ah
<len-1304> and a lot of settings include system as a category.
<smartboyhw> zequence, how's the testing?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll do it when I have time. I don't use a virtual install, cause it doesn't affect hardware diffs
<zequence> hardware related diffs
<smartboyhw> zequence, I went through some old Ubuntu Studio IRC logs + Mailing list archives, and I can't seem to find when Scott actually became Project Lead...
<zequence> smartboyhw: I've never asked him: I wasn't around at the time. ttoine or perhaps holstein would know
<zequence> astraljava too perhaps?
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm
<smartboyhw> Old history:P
<smartboyhw> !testers
<smartboyhw> Er Tm_T clearly didn't approve it for me:(
<smartboyhw> This factoid will be useful in future
<zequence> smartboyhw: Don't think he has come home yet
<smartboyhw> zequence, one interesting thing: Edubuntu has their own council right? They have 5 council members but only 7 Edubuntu members (LOL)
<smartboyhw> Very interesting
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think it shows that we flavors need more people involved
<smartboyhw> zequence, not like that in Kubuntu
<smartboyhw> we got 55 Kubuntu members (including me)
<zequence> yes, Kubuntu is doing well
<smartboyhw> But the others, not
<smartboyhw> I think it is thanks to Canonical's support in the early days + rep of KDE
<ttoine> zequence, I think scott became the natural leader after Cory give up
<smartboyhw> ttoine, just like zequence became the natural leader after scott give up? 
<smartboyhw> That seems to be the way to born an Ubuntu Studio Project Lead 
<smartboyhw> LOl
<ttoine> smartboyhw, something like that, yes
<smartboyhw> Kubuntu teaches me a lot of things
<smartboyhw> e.g. How to package, how to do seed management, the importnace of copyright file, etc.
<smartboyhw> ttoine, well if our team doesn't grow that will be the process in the future:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, would it be wise to mark the upgrade testcases ready?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'd rather do them first. I'm just about to start working on that
<smartboyhw> zequence, well OK then:)
<zequence> It seems like we've had a bit of help with a couple of test cases
<smartboyhw> zequence, just mark it after you finish it
<zequence> nicks I don't recognize
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes:)
<smartboyhw> The install ones
<smartboyhw> merejomusicf
<smartboyhw> s/merejomusicf/merejomusic/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "merejomusic"
<smartboyhw> He did post on Google+ that he thinks 13.04 is the best (he has been using it since 8.04)
<zequence> Ah yes. It's him
<zequence> He seems quite pleased with 13.04
<smartboyhw> zequence, you should be happy about that:)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Oh, I just remembered yet another important change with 13.04. Two bugs are fixed. Let me get them for you..
<smartboyhw> zequence, bang
<smartboyhw> Still time to update it though
<smartboyhw> Which two?
<zequence> bug #956438
<ubottu> bug 956438 in jackd2 (Ubuntu Quantal) "jackdbus crashes on stop" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/956438
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I think too that in small Open Source projects, people contributes for some time, then do something else, etc... and often, the one with the most time to spend become the leader ;-)
<smartboyhw> Ah that bug and?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, +1
 * smartboyhw clearly isn't one:P
<zequence> This is soon fixed in both Quantal and Raring too, but is one very important one for audio folks
<smartboyhw> zequence, s/Raring/Precise you mean?!
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes
<zequence> bug #1163638
<ubottu> bug 1163638 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "fails to release card to jack" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1163638
<zequence> I'm preparing the SRU process for this bug. That report is a part of that
<zequence> It is fixed in pulseaudio 3.0, which is shipped with raring
<smartboyhw> zequence, good:)
<zequence> With a little luck, both will be fixed in Precise and Quantal at around Raring release time, so in effect, all of them will work as well for audio more or less
<zequence> still, worth mentioning in the release notes
<zequence> jackd 1.9.9 fixes #956438, and pulseaudio 3.0 fixes 1163638
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> zequence, we also got a new tester plimptm
<smartboyhw> zequence, and it seems that he doesn't find your problem...
<smartboyhw> zequence, how's the testing?
 * smartboyhw suddenly notices that zequence is away:(
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am switching to mobile. See ya
<zequence-q> Another thing we really need to look at for next cycle is why we install both -generic and -lowlatency for i386
<smartboyhw> Hello zequence-q:)
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think maybe the -pae problem
<zequence-q> I would guess that is it too
<zequence-q> ah, upgrading won't upgrade the proprietary nvidia driver I think
<zequence-q> I'm seeing it is being installed by default on 12.10
<smartboyhw> OK
<zequence-q> It's called nvidia-current, but such a package does not exist in 13.04
<zequence-q> Someone already  mentioned this i think
<smartboyhw> BTW I updated the release notes with the bugs
<smartboyhw> And I got my announcement ready;)
<zequence-q> smartboyhw, Great
<smartboyhw> zequence: So how's the upgrade?
<Tm_T> no I'm not slow
<smartboyhw> Tm_T LOL
<smartboyhw> zequence-r: How's it?
<zequence-r> smartboyhw, Just about to upgrade to raring
<smartboyhw> Good:)
<Tm_Tsudapium> hola
<zequence-r> Tm_Tsudapium,  Terve
<Tm_Tsudapium> zequence and smartboyhw, all should be set (:
<zequence-r> ok. thanks!
<smartboyhw> It works
<zequence-r> Maybe only raring gets this problem. From /var/log/syslog .. "No volume groups found"
<zequence-r> It's not finding my partitions
<zequence-r> Has happened before, but it doesnt happen every time
<zequence-r> I will reboot and try again
<zequence> I'm unable to do the upgrade on this machine, so I will need to repeat the procedure on another :(
<smartboyhw> zequence: Damn why?
<zequence> the partition manager isn't able to scan my disk
<smartboyhw> DAMN
<smartboyhw> LOl
<zequence> May be a raring only bug, which might has something to do with having many logical volumes
<zequence> I have something like 8 different OSs installed here, out of which 6 are for Ubuntu Studio testing
<smartboyhw> What the...
<smartboyhw> zequence: Two for kernels at least?
<zequence> Could be the same bug that em guy had who was here and on #ubuntu-installer yesterday
<zequence> smartboyhw: Both archs, 3 releases
<zequence> = 6
<smartboyhw> zequence: wow
<smartboyhw> zequence: Find the backlog of yesterdays #ubuntu-installer channel at irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/04/03
<zequence> smartboyhw: I have it in my own irssi log, but thanks :)
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> zequence: How's the upgrade test?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Soon finished
<smartboyhw> Yat
<smartboyhw> s/Yat/Yay/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "Yay"
<zequence> Yat works surprisingly well too :D
<smartboyhw> Yat!
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> len-1304: I'm thinking more about links to IRC, forums and stuff like that. If we want more participants, it may be smart to make those links really visible. The first step is really that people come in contact with us. We should add a couple of links to the desktop at least
<zequence> I'll want to make more work on the website too, to make it easier for users to get in touch with us, and realize they could help, if they want, etc
<zequence> The installer is already great, when it comes to this
<zequence> Maybe a bit of text editing would be in order though. But, that's just details
<zequence> btw, probably not that many here are on the forums that often. I know I'm not (I was only for a short period)
<zequence> It has a lot of activity
<zequence> I think by far more than any other of our communication channels
<smartboyhw> I am, but not that active now
<zequence> I'm going to pay more attention to the forums from now on. That is really where we get to interact with most users, apart from our website and social sites
<zequence> mail list and IRC are important too, but they have much less traffic
<smartboyhw> zequence: Did you report your upgrade result to the ISO QA Tracker7
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm doing it now. I'll let you know when I'm done
<zequence> len-1304: Actually, I had another look at the menu, and realized, system is probably used for applications that are somehow related to the system - not making settings for it, while settings is all about adjusting settings, not matter if global or not
<zequence> But, it still doesn't look perfectly organized
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm going to mark it failed, since the lightdm-gtk-greeter theme is not correctly updated
<zequence> smartboyhw: But, it's ok to release anyway
<zequence> I'm just going to make a bug report about this
<zequence> Well, it's the same bug as before really
<zequence> Just one less error this time
<zequence> I've marked them ready
<zequence> smartboyhw: ^
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK
<zequence> hmm, seems the greeter bug is actually not because of the upgrade at all (well, not the theming anyway)
<zequence> It looks bad on the live ISO even, when you log out
<Len-nb> zequence, That makes sense. But take a look at what xubuntu has in settings. There are a few things in setting that don't belong. Like install this to your hard drive should really be in system not settings.
<zequence> nice..
<zequence> I deleted all my blog posts by mistake
<zequence> 3 of them
<zequence> :(
<zequence> Seeing words like "do you want to delete all.." should make alarm bells go off, but apparently not for me
<zequence> Ah, they were only trashed. Got them un-deleted
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-05
<Len-nb> sounds good.
<zequence> Creating my first package. Luckily only one author and license. In some cases, you package one small library, with 10 different authors and licenses. Not so fun to maintain
<smartboyhw> Sending announcements noe
<zequence> smartboyhw: Don't loose sleep over it :) 
<smartboyhw> zequence I did sleep 
<smartboyhw> Just sending it out and I will go to bed again
<zequence> smartboyhw: Your devotion to punctuality is admirable, but as you have noticed, delays happen not only among volunteers. It's perfectly alright to be relaxed with things like this. Final release might be a bit more important, but the world won't stop turning if we are a day late with announcements :)
<Len-nb> zequence, when I sent something to len@ubuntustudio.org I got the message ok. So mine works
<zequence> Len-nb: Yeah. I realized I had made a mistake with the ticket. The ticket header says we want .org addresses, but in the text I ask for .com
<zequence> Doesn't really matter which we have, even if it would be nice to have .com, or both, as they both are valid
<smartboyhw> mwahahahahwh
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think .org is better
<smartboyhw> As Kubuntu and Edubuntu uses it for their members
<zequence> What Kubuntu and Edubuntu does is their business ;)
<zequence> I do realize now that our website is redirected to .org, when typing the .com address
<zequence> So, then it makes more sense
<zequence> It also makes sense cause we are a volunteer organization
<zequence> All though, the brand is under Canonicals control
<smartboyhw> Gua gua gua still not released
<smartboyhw> Gua gua gua:P
 * smartboyhw will op any moment
<zequence> smartboyhw: There's really no hurry. Just relax. Doesn't matter if we announce it one day later
<smartboyhw> zequence, I'm free today anyway
<smartboyhw> HOLIDAY
<zequence> smartboyhw: perfect time to take some time off from work ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, no. Online exercise to do
<smartboyhw> Our teachers will kill us if we don't
<smartboyhw> And tmr I need to start studying Chemistry (ionic bonding)
<smartboyhw> Test on Monday:(
<smartboyhw> I think I should remove that "Ubuntu Studio 13.04 Beta 2 testing in progress" first.
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ |
<smartboyhw> zequence, one good thing that we can learn from the engineering teams is that we can split our workitems into monthly milestones. So we don't get too unfocused
<smartboyhw> And not to get too many workitems marked POSTPONED
<smartboyhw> Guys, expecting announcement at London time...
<micahg> umm, announcement should've been already (Thu is release day)
<smartboyhw> micahg, no. 
<smartboyhw> micahg, the London Canonical IS guys haven't changed the testing links in ubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> No release
<smartboyhw> ...
<micahg> right, should've been, but there were hiccups :)
<smartboyhw> micahg, anyway it gives the mirrors more time to sync
<smartboyhw> micahg, I forgotten, but you seemed to be finding me one day?
<micahg> smartboyhw: yes, please use content in pings :)
<smartboyhw> micahg, ?
<micahg> was something about uploads or whatnot, but we were never on at the same time
<smartboyhw> micahg, oh oh
<micahg> I inferred from context, but if you ping me and I'm not around, just use context :)
<micahg> err...content
<smartboyhw> micahg, OK:)
 * smartboyhw throws blood
<smartboyhw> I am seriously fed up with Mr. phillw on #ubuntu-release
<smartboyhw> He just keeps not calming down...
<micahg> smartboyhw: 1.  This is a logged channel, 2.  sending in PM
 * smartboyhw decides to go into IRC silence...
<smartboyhw> Uh
<zequence> smartboyhw: Doesn't matter if 50% of workitems get postponed, as long as the important stuff gets done. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, it helps I think
<zequence> helps what?
<zequence> to make numbers look good?
<smartboyhw> zequence, well at least we DID something
<zequence> This cycle has seen very little change in the actual OS. A few details here and there. Improvements, yes. But nothing radical. And even if we had done nothing at all, it would have been an ok release
<zequence> What are the important objects for the future?
<zequence> To get more stuff done, we need more people -> we need an organization for it, documentation and PR to get more people involved
<zequence> But, we don't have short term plans for everything
<zequence> Rather, the other way around
<zequence> So, monhtly milestones would make very little sense for us
<zequence> Making up 40 workitems, and then completing them, doesn't mean you did something to improve the OS. It just means you completed 40 workitems
<zequence> We need people who have ideas about how to improve Ubuntu Studio. And we don't central planning for everything, like figuring out different workflows
<zequence> So, that means, people can work independently
<zequence> My personal next big milestone is 14.04. And I see 13.10 as an opportunity to try out some stuff
<zequence> If we get someone working on improving just one of our workflows, for example video, the only thing that person needs to worry about is the development schedule as a whole
<zequence> And that person could work independently on it
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-1304> zequence, +1
<len-1304> I would love to see someone just use one of the workflows other than audio and make work well.
<zequence> Really none of our workflows are thoroughly worked out. We have the big applications, but we're missing a lot of the fine stuff. Probably a lot of obvious stuff, just because we don't have time to do it ourselves
<zequence> I have this friend, who likes to get his band together at least once a week, just so he can feel they are a band. But, if they aren't rehersing for anything, just playing, people loose interest. They are working for nothing. Learning songs for no reason
<zequence> It's different of course, when they have an actual goal to work for. Like a gig, or a recording
<zequence> Nice looking numbers may make you feel like things are moving along, but what really makes things change I find can be something much less measurable than that
<zequence> Anyway, I feel like we are on track now. At least I'm feeling very content currently
<smartboyhw> Hmm the Lubuntu QA manager is trying to curse Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> zequence, one thing: When it gets released (still isn't) would you post as "Ubuntu Studio" in Google+? You know I don't have the rights.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Seems like your long wait is over
<smartboyhw> zequence, we don't know who did it clearly. Daviey was asking that in #ubuntu-release
<smartboyhw> Probably let me OP first
<smartboyhw> And we'll see if it is a false call or what...
<smartboyhw> Anyway I think the team can't save it now;P
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you're not sure. wait
<zequence> Wait another day, if you have to
<zequence> There's no particular hurry at all
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep.
<ttoine> zequence, hello
<ttoine> is you @ubuntustudio.org email working ?
<zequence> ttoine: Yes. Not for you?
<zequence> It should redirect to ttoine@ttoine
<zequence> Also, I'm totally confused. I never asked for .com addresses. Don't know why I thought I did
<zequence> ttoine: I tried sending you meail
<zequence> mail*
<ttoine> it was not working yesterday
<ttoine> but i get your email
<zequence> ok, seems to be working then :)
<ttoine> it will ease my chat with suppliers for merchandising ;-)
<ttoine> I just need to configure gmail, now
<ttoine> great !!!
<zequence> ttoine: Don't think you can send as @ubuntustudio.org though. Only receive
<zequence> You can add the address in your contact info, or signature. 
<ttoine> zequence, with gmail and thunderbird, if you can receive, you can send
<ttoine> yours is zequance@ubuntustudio 
<ttoine> ?
<ttoine> zequence@ubuntustudio . org ?
<ttoine> zequence, do you have some news from twitter ? did you get information about that from scott ?
<zequence> ttoine: The email address is just a redirect. There's no smpt server
<zequence> If you can send as ttoine@ubuntustudio.org, then anyone can
<zequence> ttoine: Nothing from twitter yet. We have the account, but Scott has the details
<zequence> well, it does have your address there, so I guess it is possible then
<smartboyhw> Permission not granted...
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm I can't login to Ubuntu Studio main website (not related to the previous sentence though)
<smartboyhw> I went to /wp-admin
<smartboyhw> And the login button seems unreacting
<smartboyhw> Just the same screen
<smartboyhw> Can you check for me?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, ^
<smartboyhw> HELP. Not working even on another browser
<smartboyhw> Tried Firefox + Rekonq (the KDE browser)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Seems to be stuck, yes
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh oh.
<smartboyhw> Should we report to IS or?
<zequence> smartboyhw: The whole of LP authentication is down, so I wouldn't worry
<smartboyhw> zequence, whoa!
<zequence> I just announced the failure at #launchpad
<smartboyhw> zequence, thanks:)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Apparently, they were upgrading the database for a few minutes
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh that's why...
<zequence> They restarted services more than 40 min ago, but something may have failed
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm
<smartboyhw> Where's Scott? He seemed to have tested the email.
<smartboyhw> zequence, can you send an email to smartboyhw@ubuntustudio.org ?
<smartboyhw> For a test
<ttoine> smartboyhw, it is working for me
<ttoine> I get the launchpad sso form
<ttoine> zequence, I confirm that I can send email from ttoine@ubuntustudio . org
<ttoine> from gmail
<smartboyhw> ttoine, send one email to smartboyhw@ubuntustudio.org please
<smartboyhw> ttoine, OK I received it:P
<smartboyhw> Mine works
<ttoine> smartboyhw, hehe ;-)
<ttoine> and if you look, I sent it with ttoine@ubuntustudio.org
<smartboyhw> So Scott is left out:P
<ttoine> I don't know
<ttoine> smartboyhw, my email didn't work till this morning
<smartboyhw> ttoine, at least it works NO
<smartboyhw> *NOW
<ttoine> yep
<smartboyhw> Scott can't seem to get his email working at all even now
<smartboyhw> astraljava, I think you got an email too.
<smartboyhw> len-1304 too
<smartboyhw> holstein also, can you guys try to test if your emails work?
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK release is now OK!
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Ubuntu Studio 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) Beta 2 released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/13.04/beta-2/
<smartboyhw> zequence, please do help post:)
<smartboyhw> \o.
<smartboyhw> \o/
<smartboyhw_> off for the night. zequence please do announce the release as "Ubuntu Studio" on G+..
<smartboyhw_> zequence, BTW I think you should go and attend http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2013/
<zequence> smartboyhw_: I won't attend it his year. However, I will attend Debconf
<zequence> I'll do the posts. Currently washing out as much FUD as I can from a ardour manual about Ubuntu :/
<smartboyhw_> zequence, :/ what's Debconf?
<zequence> len-1304: I'm thinking about how to do planning from now on..
<zequence> Should we continue as we have, or should we do something different?
<zequence> Somehow, all the blueprints could be non release specific
<zequence> While, we do make release specific goals too
<zequence> Not that big of a deal really. Just thinking out loud
<zequence> I'm going to set up planning for next release, or really rather for both 13.10 and 14.04 this weekend, or that's my plan
<zequence> In other words, I plan to plan :P
<holstein> !info files
<ubottu> Package files does not exist in quantal
<holstein> zequence: have you checked that out ^^
<holstein> are we going to thunar and staying?
<holstein> i think we should make sure when folks pull in the meta packages with jack or jack, that the pulse sync dbus works
<zequence> holstein: We decided to go for a more pure Xubuntu setup. Would you have rather kept nautilus?
<zequence> !info file
<ubottu> file (source: file): Determines file type using "magic" numbers. In component main, is important. Version 5.11-2 (quantal), package size 17 kB, installed size 92 kB
<zequence> Ah, that's something else
<holstein> not nautilus... but whatever main is going to maybe
<zequence> !info nautilus
<ubottu> nautilus (source: nautilus): file manager and graphical shell for GNOME. In component main, is optional. Version 1:3.5.90.really.3.4.2-0ubuntu4.2 (quantal), package size 824 kB, installed size 2391 kB
<holstein> im fine with thunar
<zequence> holstein: You mean, pulseaudio-module-jack?
<zequence> holstein: There's a misconception that this module would improve jack being able to grab the card from pulse. This is not true
<zequence> The only thing it does, is adds a jack client for pulseaudio
<zequence> That's not something everyone will want
<zequence> We have it by default on Ubuntu Studio though
<holstein> zequence: im talking about what las is mentioning
<zequence> holstein: In the manual, you mean?
<zequence> I just did an update to it. Something like 19 edits. Removed half of the text, as it was full of non-truths about how things work on Ubuntu
<zequence> Don't think it's published yet
<holstein> good!
<zequence> I left the bits that the two bugs are a problem on 12.04 and 12.10. Also, that you need to manually set realtime prio on anything else than Ubustudio, KX and Dream Studio
<zequence> And, that Ardour will only support their own official packages
<zequence> I removed the rest pretty much
<zequence> holstein: It's safe to say that Ubuntu Studio has some challenges for the future
<zequence> We've been having those bugs for much too long now
<zequence> Gives us a bad name
<zequence> By 14.04, I really want there to be no doubt as to which distro rules at multimedia
<holstein> i think we need someone up in the motu group from out team
<zequence> holstein: I think rather, we need to fix issues in both Debian packages, as well as Debian and Ubuntu policy regarding pro audio
<holstein> agreed
<zequence> I'm a member of Debian Multimedia Team now, and will work with them on that
<holstein> and, i think its happening upstream
<em22> hello, I found a bug that is specific to ubuntustudio 13.04 and is serious enough to be considered a blocking issue.  how/where should I file the bug report...  launchpad? what area?
<holstein> what is a blocking issue?
<holstein> em22_: ?
<holstein> !bug
<ubottu> If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug using the command Â« ubuntu-bug <package> Â» - See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for other ways to report bugs.
<holstein> !13.04 
<ubottu> Ubuntu 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) will be the 18th release of Ubuntu, Discussion and support until final release in #ubuntu+1
<holstein> em22: ^
<holstein> anyways.. this is a good place to start. 
<em22_> hi, the fix is trivial, but the broken functionality is major...  thats why I call it a blocking issue
<em22_> the problem is that the kernel-headers does not have a valid symlink...  so you cant install anything that needs to use the headers... such as virtualbox.   
<holstein> em22_: the lowlatency one, you mean?
<holstein> zequence: ^^
<em22_> ok,  ubuntu-bug ...  but what package would I use ?
<holstein> em22_: just wait and see what zequence says
<em22_> yes the lowlatency one
<em22_> okay, thanks
<Len-nb> em22, the package would be linux-lowlatency-headers , but it may have to have the actual kernel version attached to it too.
<Len-nb> Like linux-lowlatency-headers-3.8.0-1 it looks like
<Len-nb> Hmm, there is also a linux-headers-lowlatency This one might be best unless it is version specific.
<em22_> okay, great!  Thank You!   I will use the generic
<holstein> ?
<holstein> why?
<holstein> if its a bug, we need to fix it em22_ 
<holstein> try the headers package if you want, and let Len-nb or zequence know
<JTa> HOLSTEIN!  Hi bud!
<holstein> JTa: YO
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-06
<zequence> em22_: Have you tried the latest kernel?
<zequence> em22_: Also, I might have the same bug you have when installing many OSs on the same machine. I have a feeling only Raring has it
<zequence> em22_: 9 times out of 10, I'm not able to get past partitioning
<zequence> em22_: I haven't found to have the problems you have with the kernel, and if the problem doesn't exist on a more recent version, there's no need for a bug report
<zequence> During the development period, the maintenance workflow for the kernels is a little different, and there's a chance something was forgotten for one of the releases
<zequence> Meaning, for one of the kernel versions
<len-1304> I don't know that I have a bug or not... Doing something an app is not designed for and having it fail is not really a bug I guess.
<len-1304> I installed onto a USB stick (32G) and found that ubiquity doe snot like USB sticks that already have a linux FS on them. I had previously installed xubuntu on it. But ubiquity would not get to the partitioner. If I pulled the USB stick out it was fine. I tried reformatting to ext4 again, but that didn't work... formatted Fat32 and it worked fine.
<len-1304> The system runs really slow on a USB stick. Slower than a live iso on a USB stick.
<len-1304> zequence, I'm Off to bed. 13.04 seems to work just fine anything I have tried. Both live and install.
<em22> sorry, I was away, now it looks like everyone has left too.   The main problems with the installer is that if any partitions are mounted, or especially if the SWAP is mounted then partman will hang.  once partman hangs it stays hung, it never exits,  and any further attempts to run it will also hang becuase of the already hung session.  I have added that info to the already existing bug.  This is why the problem is not seen on a 
<em22> clean install, because a clean install does not yet have a swap file.  but if there is a swap file and it is automatically activated, that is when partman gets into trouble.  see bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1080701
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1080701 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "After 'Preparing to install Ubuntu' screen, raring installation hangs" [High,Confirmed]
<em22> but the other bugs I was talking about are:   #1165259 13.04 Beta1 -- symlink missing for Linux Headers /usr/src   | no one has triaged this yet, but I feel it is a release blocker. so I am concerned about the lack of response.
<em22> other bugs: are of less concern:   #1164789 partman hangs if laptop not plugged into power   |   #1164783 during manual partitioning, the size is off-by-one, this causes unexpected resizing |  #1164787 Partition Summary Silder Bar does not display the last partition 
<em22> Im really excited about this new release!  it is the first time that the audio has actually worked correctly on my HP laptop.  Unfortunatly, I still cant use it, becuase it causes my laptop to overheat.  My laptop hit 94C under moderate load, before I turned off the power...  that is seriously hot.  12.04 does not have this problem.  it actually started with 12.10
<em22> well, I've got to call it a night too, but hopefully you will see the above info when you come back.   Good Night
<smartboyhw> zequence: Cheers for making the announcement on G+
<zequence> em22_: I'm still curious whether the symlink issue only affects a specific kernel version or not. 
<zequence> bug #1165259
<ubottu> bug 1165259 in linux-meta-lowlatency (Ubuntu) "13.04 Beta1 -- symlink missing for Linux Headers /usr/src" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1165259
<smartboyhw> zequence: if it affects -lowlatency it will affect -generic too I think
<smartboyhw> Or maybe not.
<zequence> I see now what the problem is. I will look into it
<smartboyhw> zequence: \o/
<zequence> Nice. I'm able to pull LP sources from Debian
<zequence> pull-lp-source <package> <release>
 * smartboyhw is grateful that they have a project lead with such high ability (not saying Scott isn't)
<smartboyhw> zequence: good:(
<smartboyhw> Damn
<smartboyhw> :) replacing :(
 * smartboyhw hates his small Android's keyboard 
<smartboyhw> zequence: For the first time, I heard somebody in the G+ community going for Unity 
<em22_> zequence: all I can tell you is that the symlink issue does NOT affect 12.04 or 12.10,  or anything earlier.  I have never encountered this prior to 13.04.   I have not yet tried installing the generic kernel on 13.04 but I have installed it on 12.10 and 12.04 without encountering this bug.
<em22> thank you for following up on this.  goodnight
<smartboyhw> em22 that IS weird. Anyway, good night.
<em22> not so weird... basically somebody fumble-fingered the folder name or links, a simple oversight easily fixed, but with substantial consequence
<zequence> linux-lowlatency is based on linux-generic, which has changed a bit over the releases, and we're not yet developing linux-lowlatency during development cycles. We just maintain it when it's released in stable releases
<zequence> When -generic changes, so does -lowlatency, and in this case, something in the -lowlatency source was probably just not named properly
<zequence> To make it linux-lowlatency, instead of just linux
<zequence> I'm still looking at the problem. The build system for linux kernels is a bit more extensive then for many other packages
<zequence> As it needs to have arch specific stuff, etc
<smartboyhw> zequence: What do ya think of the points the person raised about Unity in our G+ community?
<em22> eh...  perhaps I should qualify that statement by saying that I have only explictly looked at the links on 12.04 and 13.04, but I have installed virtualbox on all ofthem above and only encountered the problem on 13.04
<em22> now I really am going to bed, it's 3am
<zequence> em22: Once I find the problem, i can have a look at earlier sources too
<zequence> There's no problem building modules on 13.04 though
<zequence> Probably just need to install the correct headers
<zequence> Which seems to be the -generic headers in this case, together with the -lowlatency (symlinked) ones
<zequence> generic does symlinking too, but -lowlatency is apparently not using the right names for the symlinks
<smartboyhw_> zequence, I've never made such an long G+ comment.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Maybe you never had so much to say at once :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have some sort of special privilege on the forum?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Nah
<smartboyhw> Why?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I once asked and the ops won't give me:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I was trying to figure out how to make threads sticky
<smartboyhw> zequence: I always ask the guys in #ubuntuforums
<smartboyhw> Give me the link and I"ll help
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ok. In that case, I'll just ask for privileges
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<smartboyhw> zequence: You are trying to make the new leadership thread sticky or?
<zequence> smartboyhw: No, I just want to be able to make new threads sticky later on
<zequence> The thread about helping Ubuntu Studio is very old and out of date
<zequence> I will want to replace it
<zequence> I'll do it myself, so no worries
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<smartboyhw> zequence: I remembered asking ops at least 3 times:P
<smartboyhw> I mean the sticky thing.
<smartboyhw> Not being mod.
<smartboyhw> zequence: After you posted tell me. I want to add a page of how people can contribute to Studio in my blog.
<zequence> smartboyhw: We have the Contribute page on the main site, which is quite ok
<zequence> http://ubuntustudio.org/contribute/
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think you will make the language more casual om the Forums;P
<smartboyhw> s/om/on/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence: I think you will make the language more casual on the Forums;P"
 * smartboyhw really likes kubotu in this channel:)
<zequence> I like the text to be short and informative. Contributing needs to be simple, and it needs to be simple to read about it too
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Strange #ubuntustudio-offtopic is owned.
<smartboyhw_> Turns out I think by joejaxx, one of the founders of Ubuntu Studio.
<smartboyhw_> I need ttoine to confirm his identity though
<zequence> I've sent mail to the ubuntu forum council mail list. It's private, but they accepted my mail, so they will discuss who to accept
<zequence> I requested, if possible, that they give the privilege to the LP team, but if that is technically impossible, than only me
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK
<smartboyhw> zequence: Speaking of adding the LP team, I don't think ttoine has an account.
<smartboyhw> At the foruns
<smartboyhw> I have. I think holstein has.
<len-1304> I haven't.. I should be getting the ubuntustudio mailing list though.
<smartboyhw> len-1304 what?
<len-1304> I don't do the forums
<smartboyhw> zequence: Get your Forums account a Ubuntu member user avatar.
<smartboyhw> len-1304 that's sad.
 * smartboyhw has a Kubuntu member one heh.
<len-1304> I only have so much time.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: No worries.
<len-1304> I'm still testing beta 2 as well.
<smartboyhw> len-1304: Well just continue to report bugs:)
<len-1304> I haven't had any problems so far. Jack has not had any xruns since install, yesterday.
<len-1304> Things are really slow, but that is what I get from running on a USB stick.
<smartboyhw> len-1304 I found CDs slow.
<smartboyhw> LOL 
<smartboyhw> and DVDs
<len-1304> The USB stick loads stuff fast enough, but any time it has to write is slow
<smartboyhw> len-1304 couldn't agree more.
<smartboyhw> zequence: For S cycle would it be possible to do offline docs?
<zequence> smartboyhw: If we have any, sure
<len-1304> smartboyhw, it is not hard to add them
<len-1304>  smartboyhw, it is not hard to add them
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: You know how to play with docbook?
<len-1304> nope. I can learn
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: Next thing, you will be our new doc lead:P (joke)
<len-1304> Doing desktop menus is enough right now.
<len-1304> smartboyhw_, some of my Docs have not been well received :)
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: e.g.?
 * len-1304 tends to leave out things ... 
<len-1304> I for get that not everyone knows what I know.
<len-1304> worse, I don't know what I know...
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: Really?
<len-1304> I am not a good teacher.
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: Oh.
 * smartboyhw_ has classmates wanting him to become a Physics teacher weird.
<len-1304> My son is a good teacher. He is 26, finishing off his Phd. He has been tutoring since high school.
<smartboyhw_> len-1304: You have a very clever son:)
<len-1304> Yes.
<smartboyhw_> len-1304 congrats!
<holstein> smartboyhw_: my email doesnt work :/
<holstein> not that im complaining.. just responding
<smartboyhw_> uh oh
<len-1304> holstein, The places where I want to use it sometimes... I can't anyway :)
<len-1304> Unless I subscribe to the list twice.
<em22> zequence: the correct headers are there, it's just that the symlinks have the wrong dir name
<zequence> em22: Yeah, but installing -generic headers would make the symlinks work is what I mean
 * zequence sighs
 * zequence is wondering if las will ever stop blaming all jack, ardour and pulseaudio bugs on Ubuntu packaging
<em22> zequence: yes, and depending on what the differences are between generic and lowlatency, it could either work fine or lead to some nearly impossible to locate bugs
<zequence> em22: I was looking at the code, but haven't found the actual error yet. btw, I should try to reproduce it first, and confirm your bug report
<zequence> em22: My guess is, as the kernels are so alike, that there is no difference on those bits, but that's just a really big guess, since I actually have no idea
<em22> okay...   I think I will install Beta2 today and see how that goes...   by the way, I probably should have mentioned in the bug report that these are 64 bits  Ive been testing.
<em22> I prefer not to play russion roulette ...  there are way too many problems as it is without introducing subtle random variants
<zequence> em22: Yeah, that could make a difference, as there are some diffs for archs as far as debian/rules goes
<em22> okay, I will update the bugs  to clarify.....   I was expecting to see some selction boxes for such things, but fiind none...  and yet on some other peoples bugs I see all kinds of info about that build, but I see no way to add that.
<zequence> em22: How did you report it? ubuntu-bug linux-lowlatency?
<zequence> Oh, you reported the meta
<em22> yes, I used the web interface, because I assumed a need for my user name and I don't have the new os configed yet with my documents etc
<zequence> em22: All you need is a launchpad account
<em22> yes, right, but getting to that account info from the newly installed os was not possible....   I keep all my important stuff in a virtual machine and did not have that setup yet
<em22> as it turns out, I totally cannot run virtual machines on 13.04  that's how I hit 94C was just from the load of an idle vm
<em22> 12.04 works great for me except for the audio does not work and bluetooth does not work
<len-1304> I have found that if I use ubuntu-bug even on a new install, it just asks me to login when the browser opens and then the rest is prettyy much automatic.
<em22> yes, well, I have far too many accounts to keep track of, I dont have any of my logins memorized except for the vm password
<em22> everything else I look up
<len-1304> Ah, ok.
<em22> 13.04 everything works except for this temperature problem.  so I am really very frustrated right now... so close and yet so far...
<em22> earlier, people were talking about Unity...  something on G+...   link?    I hope this does not mean that people are considering switching from XFCE to Unity?
<len-1304> I don't think so.
<zequence> No, we won't be changing desktops very easily. I'd rather add support for more of them instead. 
<len-1304> unity is unusable on most of my systems. Too slow to get anything done.
<len-1304> Even my wife who just does browsing and office type stuff gave up on it.
<em22> good, I think the concept of a one size fits all interface is just totally wrong.  It would be like replacing the steering wheel and gas pedal of a car with a motorcycle handlebar
<len-1304> Yes.
<len-1304> unity is a consumer IF, Studio is a creation OS and needs a content creation IF with more flexibility
<zequence> I use Gnome3 myself. Or awesome. Personally, I find the menu a waste of time, but then, I'm pretty comfortable using mostly my keyboard, and it works with my workflows
<zequence> If I had more time, I would probably do a Gnome3 version, just for the fun of it. Making it look slick and have some multimedia specific extensions
<zequence> You can add a menu to it pretty easily, if you want
<zequence> And, I think it's very fast, as well
<em22> unity is a cellphone interface....  and it is great to see that ubuntu now runs on cellphones, but my laptop is not a cellphone and my desktop will probably never have a touchscreen.  IMHO it's just totally wrong to try to make everything work the same when they are not at all the same.  ditto your point about content creators vs content consumers.   The thing about menus is that they make information discoverable.  with unity yo
<em22> u can hardly even tell the difference between a program that is running and a button to launch the program...
<zequence> Discovering applications is not something you do on a daily basis. It's once in a while, and then you have many ways to do that. Searching by tag is one way
<em22> I have not looked at Gnome3 in a long time.  I guess if it's approaching stability it could be interesting.  
<zequence> But, I can agree that it feels disorientating to use Unity or Gnome dash, before you get used to it
<zequence> I think Gnome3 is quite ok. It's just that it's not polished by any distro. you can improve functionality by adding extensions, which are basically java script plugins
<em22> well, I create my own quick launcher with the stuff I use daily, for everything else I prefer a menu that I can read instead of inscrutable icons 
<zequence> This is the place for extensions https://extensions.gnome.org/
<zequence> Just finding that page is not apparent, when on vanilla Gnome
<zequence> I guess these are reasons why they are planning their own OS
<em22> also I find a couple of quick clicks far superios to typing commands in what is supposed to be a GUI interface.  if I wanted to type stuff I'd use terminal....  well, actually I do spend a lot of my time in terminal
<em22> speaking of terminals....  is there any chance I could talk people into considering the replacement of xfce term with gnome-terminal?   if you only do stuff locally then xfce is essentially identical...  but if you spend half your life in ssh then gnome-terminal is vastly superior because of it's support for multiple profiles with custom colors etc.
<zequence> em22: Easily installable :)
<em22> actually its a bit fiddly to get it to be your default terminal
<zequence> em22: The philosophy I have is that we try to keep as close to Xubuntu as possible, to reduce maintenance issues
<em22> okay, that is sound reasoning
<zequence> em22: But, that's just me. We did have more of the Gnome apps until 13.04
<em22> yes,  I saw that 13.04 went back to using thunar instead of nautilus
<em22> In general I much prefer nautilus, there are certain things that you can't do in thunar....  or at least past tense....   these latest versions are a whole new ballgame though, thunar has improved and nautilus is not even recognizable....  
<em22> which I guess is also one of my complaints about Gnome...  the user interface is constantly making radical changes.    after you train an office full of not-very-computer-savvy workers how to use something, the last thing you want are radical changes in that interface.  it means huge retraining and support costs
<len-1304> The new nautilus seems to have lost functionality
<len-1304> The search feature doesn't have the flexibility it used to. Basically thunar now seems to have more features than nautilus any more
<em22> well, not sure it's lost anything...  but it's been modularized so that you have to browse synaptic and install separet addons
<len-1304> Gee thanks.
<len-1304> So maintaining a distro with it becomes more work.
<em22> yes...  I was quite surprised/shocked by the changes that had been made
<zequence> It has lost some functions
<len-1304> We switched to nautilus in 12.04 because thunar was buggy. Thunar has gotten better and nautilus worse.
<em22> not sure I am going to remain a fan of nautilus
<zequence> They took out the treeview in list mode, but I read they're readding it
<zequence> The search functionality I find irritating now
<zequence> Other than those, I suppose most of what you'll ever need is still there
<zequence> Just aesthetics on the rest
<em22> yes, I think its a good call...      guess I never really used the search functionality...  I never found any of the GUI search programs to be very good, silly me, I prefer cli: locate
<zequence> I just got spam through a mail list, with no sender, originally sent Feb 2006
<len-1304> catfish has gotten much better.
<len-1304> Catfish is a gui search. (our new default)
<em22> it's good to be innovative and try new ways of doing the GUIs, but I feel that programmers do not appear to be spending enough time thinking about their target users, mostof whom are not very computer savvy.
<em22> spam...  hmmm.  well maybe it get stuck in a queue somewhere, but more liekly it's just a poor job of forging the headers.
<len-1304> Ya, but I think Ubuntu right now (speaking about vanilla)  is trying to aim at non-computer users, those who don't use linux now. Anyone who likes things the way they are is already using linux. They are looking for a new "market"
<len-1304> Time will tell if they get it right
<zequence> Or no. There is a From:. But, anyway. Not often you get 6 years old mail
<len-1304> Old virus.
<em22> yes, an abandoning their existing market in the process.   distrowatch has already told that they are wrong...  tens of thousands of people have switched to alternatives.  also, those icons just dont seem like the right approach.... windows 8 had the same experience.
<zequence> Windows 8 is a gigantic switch though, compared to how little Windows has been changing over the past 20 years
<zequence> So, it's not strange that people are finding it hard to adjust
<em22> its far easier to teach a non-computer user to read a menu then it is to have them memorize a zillion icons.... speaking as someone who has done a lot of teaching of computer users...
<zequence> non savvy users often only use something like three applications though
<zequence> or maybe four
<em22> okay....  well....  so you hit them with 20 icons....  inscrutable images and no hover tips...
<em22> and on top of that the icons keep getting hidden.....
<em22> do you know how hard it can be to teach people how to use a minimize button that is right in front of them...?   I just did that yesterday....  not easy.  the icons are even more obtuse.
<em22> well, nice chatting, but Ive got code to write...  and I guess another beta to test :-)   so Ill be going now
<zequence> em22: See you around
<zequence> em22: And thanks for taking time with bug hunting
<em22> yes, you are welcome,  I look forward to chatting again soon. 
<zequence> Think I found the bug for the header linking
<zequence> building..
<zequence> Seems like a found another bug -- missing build dependencies
<zequence> I'm being stupid now..
<zequence> makes little sense making a symbolic link link to itself
<zequence> Obviously, the headers should depend on -generic headers
<zequence> hmm, there are two header dirs.. surprise
<zequence> len-dt: Just noticed it's possible to do polls on LP. Didn't read about how Xubuntu will be choosing their lead, but I'm thinking that would be a good way later on. A launchpad vote
<zequence> I'm thinking 14.04 would be suitable for that
<zequence> The release of it, I mean
<zequence> or, by the release of it, more correctly
<zequence> I'm learning more about how LP works today. About projects, project groups, milestones, etc
<zequence> It's a bit difficult to orientate among some of the projects and teams, as they are ver alike
<zequence> At least for someone who doesn't know LP very well
<zequence> So, I'm going to do something about that
<zequence> Xubuntu has a nice system with different coloring on some teams. I guess they are not alone in that. Works pretty well. Think we should do that too
<zequence> And make projects not look like teams
<len-dt> Ya, that all makes sense. I understand the need for structure, but I have never been good at it.
<len-dt> It is a problem in everything I do, I see the solution, but am not so good at making easy to follow up on.
<len-dt> Teaching math is really hard because it is too easy to see the solution without the steps to get there. Making myself think through the whole thing is something I am learning.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-07
<smartboyhw> zequence: Speaking about voting, there's a different voting system called CIVS.
<smartboyhw> Which the Kubuntu Members will use to vote on the Kubuntu Council members.
<smartboyhw> Technically speaking LP votes are better in doing Project Lead cotes 
<smartboyhw> s/cotes/votes/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "Technically speaking LP votes are better in doing Project Lead votes"
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I think the idea is that we need to grow the team large enough that a vote/poll is even needed in the first place.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: That's a +1. But in Xubuntu' case, their users LP team vote on their Project Lead 
<smartboyhw> We DO have that.
<smartboyhw> However the problem will be that whether some people will get votes more equal then the others 
<smartboyhw> I think, though, as zequence is still active he will still be the best choice for Project Lead 
 * smartboyhw is thinking to do a thank you section for the 13.04 final announcement.
<smartboyhw> Off, back in 3-4 hours
<smartboyhw> Hello!
<smartboyhw> zequence: Do add me as friend on Ubuntu Forums:P
<len-dt> zequence, holstein,  phasex is buggy. Sent a message to the developer. The preferences do not save. The only way to set preferences in phasex that will still be there next time it is started is to manually edit the file
<len-dt> The file to edit is ~/.phasex/phasex.cfg... should someone ask for help with this.
<len-dt> I think the developer has copied over the patch save dialog where the the config save dialog should be and just not changed the values to reflect it's proper use. It seems odd that you would be able to save/load the patch in two places but not be able to save the config :)
<len-dt> Wow!, that was fast. Qjackctl 0.3.10 was released April 1 2013 and when I look at the one running in precise it says 0.3.10 build April 5 2013.
<zequence> len-dt: That is fast. backport?
<zequence> len-dt: Or, are you using some PPA
<zequence> len-dt: Doesn't look like it's been released from doing a package search
<zequence> I'm just about to boot into precise to test kernels. Will check
<zequence> len-dt: I guess you have kxstudio ppa. 
<len-dt> I may.
<len-dt> Forgot about that. I haven't booted this drive for a bit.
<zequence> ls /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
<len-dt> kxstudio-team-ppa-precise.list       opera.list
<len-dt> kxstudio-team-ppa-precise.list.save  shnatsel-zram-precise.list
<zequence> len-dt: I doubt anyone is updating any of the pro audio packages on stable releases. Not even PA gets updated very often (last updated autumn last year)
<zequence> PA had an update in November for precise
<len-dt> Does jack (not qjackctl) have any way of changing the name of it's ports?
<zequence> No idea
<len-dt> Ah, I would love to rename ports 5 to 10 on my card.
<falktx> I updated qjackctl for kxstudio, yes :)
<len-dt> April 5 no doubt :)
<falktx> len-dt: port-aliases kinda allow that, but qjackctl doesnt do that
<len-dt> qjackctl allows it, but they don't show up in other programs.
<falktx> yep, it doesn't use port-aliases
<len-dt> I want it to show in Jack to other programs.
<falktx> I support aliases in my catia app
<len-dt> I have a delta 66 and ports 5 to 8 are not used. and 9-10 are spdif.
<falktx> but I think it's better to enable "hardware aliases" instead
<len-dt> How do I do that?
<falktx> I have it enabled for kxstudio's jack2. use cadence to configure jack and enable it
<falktx> sadly qjackctl doesn't read or set jackdbus settings either
<len-dt> Well it does a few like rate and -p etc., but not all
<len-dt> It does allow the use of net as a back end but does not allow changing the settings.
<falktx> no, qjackctl doesn't read jackdbus settings
<falktx> as in, the one official jackdbus config in ~/.config/jack/
<len-dt> Hmm, OK, I guess it uses dbus to set things but then reads whatever from jack directly.
<zequence> qjackctl has its own settings, and also, edits ~/.jackdrc
<zequence> .config/rncbc.org/QjackCtl.conf
<len-dt> Ya, When jack has settings changed through dbus it saves them too.
<falktx> yes, but the problem is that it doesn't read them
<falktx> so the settings are not shared with other jack config tools
<len-dt> Ya.
<len-dt> Hmm, I can tell jack the number of ports I want to use, but not which ports I want to keep if they are non-contiguous.
<len-dt> For example 6 ports 1-4 + 9-10
<falktx> jack doesn't do that afaik
<len-dt> It seems that way.
<len-dt> Still 1.9.8 version of jack. Supports CELT but not opus.
<len-dt> Nope it says 1.9.9.5 , I thought 1.9.9 came with opus support, release notes say "- Add opus support to NetJack2."
<len-dt> zequence, I know it has been sometime since we looked at midi jitter.
<len-dt> The Jackd faq has this to say about it: "There is no canonical answer to that. The kernel clock freq (dev.rtc.max-user-freq, dev.hpet.max-user-freq) is irrelevant for JACK, JACK-midi and JACK's MIDI-backends including a2jmidid. However, applications that directly use ALSA-MIDI or ALSA-sequencer may be affected by this. There are many related factors. It depends which timer is used by the soundcard's driver (snd_timer, snd_hrtimer) and how the appl
<len-dt> ications schedules ALSA-MIDI data processing."
<len-dt> zequence, it would seem we should try to set things up to default to using jack midi if they support it. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-03-31
<OvenWerk1> The Mixbus User Manual seems to be a very complete ardour 2 manual. It probably covers most of ardour3 as well (minus midi). Wish I had found it earlier :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-01
<OvenWerk1> zequence: It looks like ubuntustudio-menu has been released. However the changelog in our branch still says UNRELEASED does that mean I should change that to trusty?
<OvenWerk1> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-menu/+bug/1295354
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1295354 in ubuntustudio-menu (Ubuntu) "[UIFe] Menu item for entangle is in the wrong sub menu" [Low,Fix released]
<OvenWerk1> see the launchpad janitor entry at the bottom.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: The safest way is to make sure there's nothing else diffing except for the changelog, by comparing lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-menu with lp:ubuntustudio-menu. It's an error on the uploaders part, since they should push that change into our branch as well
<zequence> could be not everyone has permission though
<zequence> of course, most probably, only the release word has been changed in the changelog. But, if ones to double check..
<zequence> ubuntustudio-look has been released as well
<zequence> still waiting for ubuntustudio-default-settings
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-02
<zequence> Ok. All packages uploaded now
<zequence> Think we still need to do a merge request against one of the ubiquity packages to get our default wp shown when choosing to install directly from the live DVD
<zequence> what we *should* do is as some of the other flavors do, is always call the wp default, or at least create a symlink that is called default - one which we never change.
<zequence> Need to remember to do that first thing next cycle
<zequence> that way we only change the wp, not the paths that lead to it also
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-04
<cub_work> Hi all, long time, no see. I've been quite busy with family and new job but try to run the beta tests as much as possible. However, I did an installation earlier this week i386, and for fun I removed all the packages in the new list where we can choose.
<cub_work> It worked sort of, as discussed before there seems to be things still installed anyway. however, that is not my question. The small Ubuntu Studio logo for the menu also disappeared.
<cub_work> I'm not sure if was a one time thing or if anyone else have experienced the same thing? I can't think of any reason it would be connected to any of the packages I unchecked.
<cub_work> Unfortunately when doing some more tests during lunch time yesterday I was in a hurry and dropped my laptop on the floor. It won't work anymore so I have no means for the time being to try to reproduce the event.
<cub_work> So,. I haven't opened a bug (as I'm not sure it is one).
<cub_work> Gotta head back to the office stuff here.
<zequence> cub: you need to uncheck all packages manually inside the metas too (if a package is a recommend in more than one meta, deselecting the meta won't deselect the package)
<cub_work> zequence: yes I noticed that too but I went through all of them inside the metas as well, but still got for instance OpenShot installed. I suppose it's connected to something else in the installation?
<zequence> cub_work: Perhaps the desktop meta?
<zequence> I don't see openshot in depends on recommends, but I do see shotwell
<zequence> I did a similar install a while back ago. I could check
<zequence> Themes should have changed with latest isos
<zequence> Great cycling weather these past couple of weeks. A bit chilly, but sunny and no wind!
<zequence> I'll be taking advantage of that for a few hours
<cub_work> Sadly since I dropped my laptop I can't check or reproduce. :(
<cub_work> Was a bit weird though that day, I tried to first install Xubuntu and that wouldn't even pass the installation process. Got stuck on the partitioning where it tried to unmount remount endlessly
<cub_work> Tried Debian next, which blurted something about kernel and refused to install. Even though I have been running debian 7 on the same machine before. Anyhow, Ubuntu Studio pulled through and installed nicely, even through the partitioning.
<cub_work> So sad, I just got a really nice set up, super clean, mini ubuntu studio installation running dwm
<cub_work> and I drop the thing on the floor right after only to never be recovered.
<cub_work> So, now I set up a ubuntu studio mini installation on a usb stick which I can run in my GFs eee pc without interfering with her windows installation.
<zequence> cub_work: When you get the kernel problem, you probably have an old ISO. Just need to get the latest one (a netinstall, I presume)
<cub_work> hmm I downloaded the 7.4 form their web site. But yeah, it said something about the kernel in the iso was not the one blah blah but since I got the latest iso I gave up there and went to what I knew worked. :P
<zequence> cub: could be there was an update, but no new iso build
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-05
<SonikkuAmerica> Hello, is anyone 'round at this hour? I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this, but I know it was a big problem in the Raring and Saucy series that naming the EFI boot files folder "ubuntustudio" instead of "ubuntu" caused the machine to go right to the GRUB prompt. Has this been fixed?
<holstein> SonikkuAmerica: i thought our kerenel didnt work with efi.. 
<SonikkuAmerica> You're right, the KERNEL doesn't. But that doesn't stop grub-efi-amd64-* from listing and launching it...
<SonikkuAmerica> (I tested this in Saucy. Renaming the "ubuntustudio" folder to "ubuntu" in /boot/efi/EFI/ fixed the configfile problem, and I was able to load either the -generic or -lowlatency entry.)
<holstein> SonikkuAmerica: so, our lowlwatency kernel can do UEFI?
<holstein> zequence: do you know about this? ^
<SonikkuAmerica> (Yes, it would help if he was involved with this. Especially since I think I can reproduce it. I'll need to do it in VBox, because I have Xubuntu on hard metal)
<SonikkuAmerica> (It'll also take me a few days to reproduce, since I'm busy all weekend.)
<SonikkuAmerica> holstein: As far as I've tested, even though it's not a vmlinuz.efi, I'm about 99% positive GRUB will launch it. If I can reproduce it in the Trusty series, we should DEFINITELY let zequence know.
<SonikkuAmerica> But I have to go to bed now, I need to be up at 6:00am and it's 11:00pm now.
<OvenWerk1> holstein: grub sees ubuntustudio as just ubuntu once again from 13.10 beta on. The original problem has been fixed and we should now be able to get grub to show ubuntustudio once again, but I don't have the HW to test it on.  :)
 * OvenWerk1 just walked in from practice.
<peanutb> moving over from #ubuntustudio. Has anyone successfully compiled an RT kernel on 14.04? I've been having trouble with ata failed write commands and I/O errors
<peanutb> these errors don't show up when i use a vanilla kernel, only when i use the kernel with the PREEMPT RT patch
<peanutb> the low-latency kernel isn't really an option for my application sadly, and seems to exhibit similar behavior.
<stochastic> peanutb, just to clarify, low-latency also suffers from the ata failed write commands and I/O errors?
<peanutb> i think so. i may be wrong. I've re-build the kernel so many times its hard to remember exactly.
<peanutb> *built
<peanutb> There was at least a pretty noticeable performance hit when using the low-latency kernel when compared to the generic or the one i built from source
<peanutb> I also tried using the same kernel on a different computer (with similar specs though) and it gave the same type of ata errors
<stochastic> have you tried the low-latency one that's in the repositories?
<stochastic> rather than rolling your own?
<peanutb> i was using the one from the repositories
<stochastic> ok
<stochastic> if that one is giving those errors please file a bug report
<stochastic> it's maintained by the canonical kernel team
<stochastic> now I realize that won't help much for your application but it'd be good to iron out those bugs
<peanutb> i also have 12.04 installed on the machine and it seems to work perfectly with the rt kernel from https://launchpad.net/~linux-libre/+archive/rt-ppa
<stochastic> is there any reason you're choosing to use 14.04?
<stochastic> it's still beta software
<peanutb> Were doing a new relase in june, targeting the next release of ROS (robot operating system)
<peanutb> So i wanted to get started early-ish
<stochastic> understandable
<stochastic> well there's been talk about looking into getting the rt kernel back into ubuntustudio
<stochastic> but we're rather thin on dev resources
<stochastic> zequence was asking if I could start looking into it soon
<peanutb> Yeah. I saw the spec on launchpad. Any way I could help out?
<stochastic> yes, certainly
<stochastic> honestly, I haven't dug my teeth into it just yet, I'm just getting back on board this project after a hiatus, but will be for the 14.10 release cycle
<stochastic> zequence would probably be the best to talk to for now, but if you'd like to stick around here, I'm sure we can bounce ideas off one another
<peanutb> okay. Ill be around
<peanutb> Ill be back in the lab tomorrow so I'll actually have access to the machine im testing on.
 * stochastic is currently rebuilding kernels for some device drivers and will tackle some -rt work after it's done
<zequence> peanutb: So, you're applying the rt patch to the ubuntu linux source, and not the vanilla source?
<zequence> hmm, I guess not, since there's no patch for that version (3.11)
<zequence> 3.13, sorry
<zequence> peanutb: It would be interesting to know if -lowlatency has those errors. The likelyhood would be very small, since -generic and -lowlatency is more or less the same kernel
<zequence> if you're having problems with the vanilla kernel, with the rt patch applied, I would recommend you to contact the realtime patch developers
<zequence> let's see..
<zequence> the mail list for users is called linux-rt-users@vger.kernel.org
<zequence> (I think developers just use the regular linux list, not sure)
<peanutb> I was applying the rt patch to the vanulla source
<peanutb> Ill check again tomorrow and see whether or not -lowlatency causes the errors as well
<zequence> peanutb: MIght not be a bad idea to test the vanilla kernel for the same bug.
<zequence> without the rt patch, I mean
<peanutb> zequence: The vanilla kernel without the RT patch works perfectly.
<peanutb> The RT kernel (when its not crashing) actually has higher latency than the vanilla kernel.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-06
<zequence> peanutb: Perhaps your problem is in the kernel version then? Could be caused by your specific hardware configuration (driver related)
<zequence> Older kernels work, but may lack some of the functionality you'd want for a recent ubuntu release
<zequence> free graphic drivers are older
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-02
<OvenWerks> Ardour 4 rc1 is out.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-04
<sakrecoer> just realized phatch still has 2 broken entries in the whisker menu #1527087
<sakrecoer> bug #1527087 
<ubottu> bug 1527087 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Need a test case for phatch" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1527087
<sakrecoer> phatch seems to work in cli, but it looks like it isn't developed any more judging by the website ...
<sakrecoer> http://photobatch.wikidot.com
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks, zequence: here are the settings i propose for the desktop. Try them and tell me what you think. Obviously it is a config using a set of choices among all the elements we already have.
<sakrecoer> and the link maybe: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/desktop-settings.txt
<sakrecoer> point 1-4 are entries in the "settings manager", just in case that wasn't obvious...
<sakrecoer> (the old "show file in file-manager" bug is back. this time it opens the file in kid3)
<sakrecoer> noticed that after downloading the wallpaper, and wanting to show the file in the filemanager from firefox...
<sakrecoer> i must admit i am fairly impressed by parole!
<sakrecoer> and given it is both a video and audio player that supports playlists i don't think i will miss audacious anymore :D
<sakrecoer> and then it crashed :(
<sakrecoer> opening audio-files from the filemanager defaults to kid3 as well..
<sakrecoer> parole seems not very willing to play with jack running..
<sakrecoer> never mind! :) PA-vu control is the friendly window in the pavu vs jack situation
<sakrecoer> strange, i got those nifty play and skip buttons for parole in the dropdown menu of the systemtray(? where network, volume and message notifications is located) 
<sakrecoer> pressed play and the thing crashed. now i can't make those buttons display anymore. rebooted a few times
<knome> i believe you are referring to the soundmenu
<sakrecoer> knome: yes! just can't get them to show anymore... i have the parole entry there, but the controls have disapeared...
<sakrecoer> the play and skip buttons didn't work when jack was runing. but after i tried that and it crashed, they vanished
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ok, great. I will have a look later. We still need to put those into config files. I'd like to finish that by wednesday.
<sakrecoer> zequence: great! i'd love to be part of the "putting into config files" procedure :) you know, to learn... if there is time-space for that :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Well, you could just start with any of the configs and see how that could be done. We might need to create a new theme for that to work
<zequence> I have no clue right at this moment how to do it best
<zequence> The wallpaper is not a problem
<zequence> And selecting default themes is neither that
<zequence> But, the custom color configs on the other hand
<zequence> I still want to try it out too, before greenlighting it of course
<zequence> Oh, you made the panel bright?
<zequence> Not sure I believe that is an improvement at all, actually
<zequence> Just reading the color codes
<zequence> But, I'll try it anyway
<zequence> So, if I hesitate, I might not want to make any changes to the desktop other than default wallpaper, just so you are aware
<sakrecoer> zequence: nopes, i did the panel dark
<zequence> The panel colors should not be difficult to set with configs. Perhaps all of that can be handled with the XFCE config files which are also used for selecting themes and wallpapers
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, you did? Right, I'm silly, of course
<zequence> Anyway, I'll have a look later :)
<sakrecoer> coolers!
<sakrecoer> fingers crossed you like it :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you like, you can have a look at the files in /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: might like it, since now it matches ardour :D
<sakrecoer> will do!
<zequence> There are the configs for theming and wallpaper
<zequence> ..well, default ones, that is
<sakrecoer> zequence: those files are in ubuntustudio-default-settings, right?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Right
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> When the user makes custom configs, those end up in home
<zequence> So, you may want to check out those files as well, after making changes, to see how that works
<zequence> perhaps in .config/ somewhere
<zequence> What you need to do is add all the configs to the correct file in /etc, and then by removing your user configs, you can see if it worked or not
<zequence> after a relogin, of course
<sakrecoer> ok! i'm digging into it in observer mode: won't do too much until you approve it so to speak :)
<sakrecoer> intersting! i didn't know we shipped lighttpd!
<zequence> I didn't either. Wonder why?
<sakrecoer> hehe, good question :D doesn't seem to be running at startup tho..
<cub> Hello folks, been much with family and work so not much time for US
<knome> good that donald has time for US
<knome> :P
<cub> :D
<sakrecoer> good to read you cub!
<sakrecoer> :) we survived without you, but you've been missed!!
<sakrecoer> staying a while or just pasding by with some goodvibes?
<cub> hanging around for a bit, doing planning work in another screen
<cub> Been reading up on the irclogs though
<sakrecoer> :)
<cub> Was going to test the betas was too late since everyone else already had done it. :P
<cub> Still undecided on the wallpaper?
<sakrecoer> cub: we are still waiting for a possible contrib by madeinkobaia
<knome> looks like you are putting it really close :P
<sakrecoer> cub: if you want to present something you may still :)
<sakrecoer> knome: put what close to what
<knome> to release...
<knome> the wallpaper
<sakrecoer> ye, well, you know how it is with artists: arriving late leaving early :D
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I thought it was the other way around...
<OvenWerks> early to the party and late to leave.
<cub> No I won't have anything good to present. I mostly use simple wallpapers myself though. As I use dwm I mostly never see the desktop anyhow
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I am not too worried about theming really, so long as the focused window is easy to spot and the theme doesn't make some application's text vanish (yes it has happened).
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: maybe us artists? not the french ones, they build expectation before they arrive and create frustration when leaving in order to be missed
<sakrecoer> but then again, i guess whst you mention applies to the band playing in the venue:)
<sakrecoer> however, thats is the job, not the party
<OvenWerks> Jackson Brown: Load out
<cub> Anyways, time to log off...see ya!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-05
<knome> zequence, requested the main branch to be reviewed and pushed to your WP installation, so you should have it when IS has done their thing
<krytarik> Since we are apparently touching the seeds/meta still anyway, we should consider replicating this as well: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.xenial/revision/997
<snapfractalpop> Will the vanilla switch to mir affect ubuntu studio 16.04 in any way?
<OvenWerks> snapfractalpop: Studio is still using x
<OvenWerks> my wife has been running xubuntu 16.04 for a few months now without trouble.
<snapfractalpop> that's good to hear
<snapfractalpop> thanks for the response
<sakrecoer> is it -default-settings that is responsible for setting whoch programs open what file types by default?
<sakrecoer> s/whoch/which
<krytarik> Yep.
<sakrecoer> we might have to have a look at them, it seems firefox wants to show files in kid3 instead of thunar. audio files also open in kid3 from desktop
<sakrecoer> instead of parole
<krytarik> Well, look at my last commit there.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: have i told you  i love you lately? :)
<sakrecoer> i was looking at how to put the dekstop settings in the config files yesterday, and noticed the settings for lightdm are put in /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf, that file is not in -default-settings branch in launchpad, does that mean it has to be added there? or is it set somewhere else?
<krytarik> Yep.
<sakrecoer> thanks krytarik ! i'll wait for zequence aproval before i do anything tho :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Like here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/files/head:/usr/share/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf.d/
<krytarik> And I'd certainly +1 doing so.
<sakrecoer> should it also be named like that, with a priority number?
<sakrecoer> and yeah, even if the color theme is not approved by zequence, we should at least set Noto in there...
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Btw, regarding the NOX theme, this still seems to be true, i.e. no GTK+ 3 support: http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=26192 - Numix looks like a viable alternative though, and might indeed both fit the Studio style better, and distinguish it more from Xubuntu.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: right, that would explain why NOX isn't affecting pavu controls...
<sakrecoer> new version of fontforge today also! its release party everywhere! :D
<sakrecoer> i wonder why debian is still developping that old 2012 version.. i got absolutely no response when i adressed the fonts guys mailing list
<sakrecoer> and that list was so full of spambots and automated emails that i unsubed after a month..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: that would be a general indication that there are no fonts guys left.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: well, from to time, they would discuss things, so it wasn't a dead list
<OvenWerks> ah.
<sakrecoer> and i would see fixes being pushed for fontforge, but that old version.
<sakrecoer> and the fontforge guys have made such a beautyfull doc, but of course, it is made for later version
<sakrecoer> the numix available is a bright theme...
<sakrecoer> sort of abright and dark...
<sakrecoer> just a few elements are dark in numix.
<sakrecoer> well... seems like there goes darkness
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Since you mention availability, I forgot to mention that NOX isn't even in the repos, but figured it doesn't matter anyway.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: "NOX isn't even in the repos" what does that mean? i used what i found after a fresh install of the latest US xenial build...
<zequence> sakrecoer: Right, we should look at the lightdm stuff as well
<zequence> Also the plymoth theme
<zequence> sakrecoer: To find out which package a file belongs to, do: dpkg -S /path/to/file
<zequence> Only works on system wide files, of course - not stuff in home
<zequence> Also, if you ever want to see the list of packages we have, I put together a nice comprehensive list here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioPackages
<zequence> The link is at the bottom part of the sidebar
<krytarik> And I have linked to the manifest before: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/xenial-dvd-amd64.manifest
<zequence> krytarik: my list only shows our own original source, to be clear
<krytarik> Yep, I see.
<knome> apt-cache search ubuntustudio
 * knome hides
<sakrecoer> ok, thanks guys! krytarik, can you please clarify for me that nox and repo thing? 
<sakrecoer> knome: probably because atm i am on 14.04 but "E: Invalid operation ubuntustudio"
<sakrecoer> first time i see that manifest, must have past me by, or been posted in offtopic :D however, i see NOX isnÃ¤t there but numix is... so where did i get nox from?
<knome> sakrecoer, with apt-cache?
<krytarik> sakrecoer: No, wasn't in -offtopic.  And I simply meant it as I said it - didn't find it in the repos on a quick search.
<sakrecoer> knome: yes, with apt-cache and also sudo ..
<knome> sakrecoer, are you sure?
<knome> krytarik, tell him he's lunatic
<zequence> Is that someone who loves the moon?
<knome> could be
<sakrecoer> ok, i'm a lunatic moron who forgot to type "search"
<knome> indeed :P
<sakrecoer> zequence: no, it is someone who follows the cycles of the mon
<sakrecoer> moon
<sakrecoer> =not always in its full mind
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-06
<DalekSec> http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20160401-xenial.html#ubuntustudio
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, lunatic -tac. I see
<zequence> What would ge a multimedia alternative to a file folder
<zequence> Apart from digital hardware, like harddisks, and such
<zequence> I'm thinking about a possible Ubuntu Studio folder icon
<zequence> Instead of a folder, we could use something else, that could be just as generic
<zequence> Like a simplification of a small shelf of things, CDs or something
<zequence> or some sort of presentation of bits (in a nice artistic way), what files actually consist of
<zequence> representation*
<sakrecoer> a robobrain
<sakrecoer> or a roboheart
<cfhowlett> a BEATING roboheart!
<cfhowlett> ba bump  ba bump ba bump ...
<sakrecoer> feels like a robobrain signals CPU
<sakrecoer> hehe :)
<sakrecoer> zequence: do you find nox in there, or do i seriously need to take a senility test?
<zequence> We should add something to the favorites in the menu
<zequence> Like system settings
<sakrecoer> the settins are always visible in the menu
<sakrecoer> next to the power/logoff button
<sakrecoer> maybe jack... thinking of an equivalent in graphics, but all that comes to mind is font manager..
<zequence> Ah, right. But, it wouldn't hurt to have it in favorites as well
<zequence> qjackctl makes sense, yes
<zequence> ubuntustudio-controls maybe
<zequence> NOX is in there, yes
<zequence> Probably included with a multi theme package
<zequence> HOw do I change colors now?
<zequence> Ah
<zequence> sakrecoer: I really don't like murrina blue
<zequence> So, I would go with something else there
<sakrecoer> but you changed the color of it right?
<zequence> Oh, I need to relogin?
<sakrecoer> anyways, it looks best with dark buttons that come with nox
<sakrecoer> teah, some changes wont effect if you don't.. can't remember which ones..
<sakrecoer> also, to see the lightdm changes..
<zequence> The murrina blue is very much blue
<zequence> There's a problem in the indicator area with the colors
<zequence> The custom hilight and custom menu colors are fine
<zequence> We might need to do the same for the whisker menu
<zequence> Custom panel color doesn't work well
<zequence> It's better to change it somewhere else. Like in "Panel"
<zequence> I prefer the default window manager theme
<zequence> ..when using NOX
<zequence> ..but NOX had some GTK issues
<zequence> So, that is a big minus
<zequence> Wait, NOX brings out GTK3 styling it seems, but without the colors
<zequence> I'm not really fond of the NOX grey either. Too bright.
<zequence> I do think we should keep the lightdm theming
<zequence> I mean, out of your suggestions
<zequence> The lightdm theme has the wrong hilighting though. Not an enormous deal, but it looks weird with the red
<zequence> sakrecoer: Our lightdm config is in /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/lightdm/
<zequence> Belongs to the package ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<zequence> For some reason the default background never shows before first login
<zequence> Think the config needs to be put in a different place
<zequence> It should work the way it does now, but we can also install the greeter config into a different spot
<krytarik> sakrecoer: So, 'ubuntustudio-look' pulls 'murrine-themes', which includes those two themes.
<krytarik> zequence: And maybe we should maintain the greeter settings along with the other default settings - because apparently you have a 'lightdm.conf' in there too.
<zequence> Really? Well, it's also artwork related, so
<zequence> Right
<zequence> The config in -default-settings is just to set the correct greeter and session
<zequence> Nothing to do with artwor
<zequence> artwork*
<zequence> So, that makes sense
<zequence> All though, that kind of correlates to the theme as well
<sakrecoer> not sure i got things right, but krytarik linked me to this yesterday: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/view/head:/usr/share/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf.d/30_xubuntu.conf and it seems to set the wallpaper for lightdm...
<sakrecoer> zequence: 
<zequence> Everyone is doing it differently, it seems
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> ubuntu mate has yet another method
<OvenWerks> I would caution against populating "favourites" with single use applications such as -controls or settings.
<OvenWerks> That is in fact one of my biggest beafs with the indicator over the systray. Indicators dedicate one whole mouse click to a single use purpose (settings) thus removing functionality that was previously available in systray icons.
<sakrecoer> zequence: have you noticed the icon for battery charge with greybird?
<sakrecoer> it is different when charging...
<sakrecoer> colors and kindof pseudo 3d..
<sakrecoer> weird... i created a new user, and there the icon is fine. but if i change the appearance theme, log out, log back in, then change back to greybird, the icon is changed, even with ubuntustudio iconset selected in appearance
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/Screenshot_2016-04-06_17-12-51.png
<OvenWerks> That looks nice. I hadn't noticed that as I don't use batteries/laptops. I will have to remember to hook up a wiimote when I test.
<sakrecoer> i found why: i had enlarged the panel to 28 pixels
<sakrecoer> putting it back to 25 gave me the classic bi-chromatic icon
<sakrecoer> zequence: but would you agree that the menus pulling down from the indicator and right click on the panel should be the same color than the panel?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: right now they are the same as window decorations.
<OvenWerks> same as menus everywhere
<zequence> sakrecoer: The menu color is nice, but it's such a small change that I wonder if that is worth the trouble at this point
<zequence> Should we change to the dark theme in lightdm, even though hilighting is red there?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: remember that some applications set their own menu colours, but are generally based on a light grey.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Do you know where the menu is configured - in which file?
<OvenWerks> zequence: he said "menus" so not whisker, but all the drop down menus from indicators, etc.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yep, I know
<OvenWerks> zequence: I would expect that to be the same as application menus
<OvenWerks> (except where the application itself goes somewhere else)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Well. Do know which file that is?
<sakrecoer> you gave me the path yesterday zequence , i'm looking for it now, but i'm slow
 * OvenWerks wishes for a tool that would allow querying the colour under the mouse
<zequence> OvenWerks: There is a color picker tool for that
<zequence> The same as in GIMP, but a standalone
<zequence> gtk2, I think
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: agave is almost always open on my box for that reason
<OvenWerks> zequence: I tought menu colour was part of the theme.
<zequence> OvenWerks: gcolor2
<zequence> OvenWerks: If you read sakrecoer's suggestion for theme changes, you will have seen where in the GUI he makes those changes
<zequence> And, those end up in config files
<zequence> I'm looking for them in ~/.config/xfce4 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I tried agave, but it didn't seem to allow testing colours in other windows... I may be missing something.
<zequence> sakrecoer: I found it. It's in .config/gtk-3.0/gtk.css
<sakrecoer> whats the magic command to search within files? grep? with it, one could serach for the color HEX...
<sakrecoer> ah nice!
<zequence> fgrep
<sakrecoer> but that is only for gtk3
<zequence> Well, yes
<sakrecoer> there is one for gtk2 as well..
<zequence> sure?
<OvenWerks> and qt4 and qt5 and kde ?
<sakrecoer> i was looking for the default files in /etc/xdg/*
<zequence> I think we should leave this, and put it aside until someone starts working on a ubuntustudio gtk theme
<sakrecoer> zequence: i sure have .config/gtk-2.0/
<zequence> That would be for some other reason
<zequence> ..since I don't have it
<zequence> But, I can see that the css file has the correct colors, so I'm assuming that is where it is done
<zequence> sakrecoer: Make sure to read files like that with something that has color coding
<sakrecoer> it got there after i tried different themes in appearances
<zequence> (in case you aren't)
<zequence> Ok, well, it wasn't due to the menu change
<sakrecoer> what do you mean zequence "something that has color coding"
<zequence> sakrecoer: Not the right term. Something that shows code in color, so that you can easily see what is waht
<zequence> css files have color schemes for a lot of text editors suitable for coding
<zequence> Such as nano, for instance
<sakrecoer> ah! nano has color coding now? :D
<zequence> Not something recent
<sakrecoer> hehe, well html color coding was real poor last time i checked :D
<zequence> Think color scheme is a better expression
<zequence> It's not perfect, compared to more serious editors
<zequence> gedit has fairly good support
<zequence> I use atom myself, when I code
<zequence> But, it's kind of heavy
<sakrecoer> i like nano actualy. vim is nice too, but it just made me pull my hair of when i tried to edit .bashrc
<sakrecoer> i'm prolly doing it wrong, but insert and 'I' wouldn't work like i'm used to
<sakrecoer> just=20 minutes ago
<zequence> I never learned vim. I'm sure it's a great editor, once you understand how it works.
<zequence> If it set tab size (in spaces) for several lines of code at once, I would be sold.
<zequence> if it can set tab size for several lines of code at once, is what I meant
<zequence> Not all editors can do that, and it's so nice when you can. Also to be able to comment large sections of codes by selecting it and using a shortcut
<sakrecoer> i think you can add som script for that. I'm not sure, but i think i remember something like that in the script for checking manual-tests..
<sakrecoer> because they want 4space tabs in the manual tests..
<zequence> Yes, that should not be a problem
<zequence> nano can do that too
<zequence> I mean, adding spaces instead of tabs
<zequence> But, can you change tab size for multiple lines at once?
<sakrecoer> i don't know :) i thought i knew how to enter a line and navigate in vi, but it seems i don't anymore... (to give you a scale of my level in vim:D)
<zequence> Also, cut and paste code, keeping the tab size within the code you cut, and paste it to any tab depth
<sakrecoer> pressing the arrows noe give me letters, cut and paste is waaay out my scope at this level :D
<sakrecoer> s/noe/now
<zequence> I'm going to fix some package building recipes, so that any changes to our source will autobuilt into our testing PPA
<zequence> The ubuntustudio-dev team has one
<zequence> That way, it's easy to just add the PPA and do testing before stuff is uploaded
<zequence> sakrecoer: I'm adding our wallpaper as default now. Haven't heard from madeinkobaia, so thinking we just go ahead now, as planned
<zequence> sakrecoer: Can you think of a good name for it?
<zequence> Otherwise, I'll just call it 1604_default.png
<sakrecoer> i was about to ask you about madeinkobaia... call it 1604-colorghost.png :p
<zequence> Alright
<sakrecoer> \o/
<zequence> I sent a couple of emails to madeinkobaia already a week ago, or more, so he has had the chance to answer
<zequence> We should change the CoF for the plymoth theme
<sakrecoer> maybe the ghost cof would do good in there too?
<zequence> Ah, damn. I've forgotten to implement the new CoF.
<sakrecoer> implement it where?
<zequence> Into everywhere
<zequence> Maybe we can save that for the next release
<sakrecoer> ah you mean the one that knome drew?
<zequence> Yes
<zequence> I still would like to see how they look after some small adjustment
<zequence> As I've mentioned before, they looked a little fat to me.
<sakrecoer> yeah, right, but the one we have now looks crooked... i don't know what is best, anyways, i think i've said everything i have to say many times now :D
<zequence> Adding the ghost CoF is a little tricky. I need to rewrite the plymoth script
<zequence> ..to adjust it's position and size
<sakrecoer> i wouldn't know how to, so do as you wish/can... (althought i've been anoyed about the circle being just slliiiightly off for very long, and it still is)
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you like, you could fix knomes CoF, making it similar in thickness, make a new wallpaper and a ghost CoF
<sakrecoer> ok, i'll try!
<zequence> meanwhile, I will see if I can use the current GhostCof in plymoth
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'm sorry, but i really don't see that fatness nor what is to be fixed... i'm juxtaposing the crooked one and the knome one, and all i see is "\o/ work is done thank you mr. knome"
<zequence> Ok, let me do that then
<zequence> sakrecoer: I can't find knomes branch anymore. Where is it? Or you have the files?
<sakrecoer> https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/ubuntustudio-artwork/current-standard-fixes
<zequence> Ok, yeah found it on his page
<zequence> Ah, right. I was looking at the wrong branch before
<sakrecoer> don't know how its done but it is also visible here: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-artwork
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you compare the two CoFs, you'll find some very clear differences
<zequence> Like the size of the hole in themiddle
<zequence> For me it was a clear change, so not only an improvement
<zequence> Not only a fix, so to say
<zequence> Since the original was not perfectly shaped, making the new version similar has to be done with some compromize
<sakrecoer> that is actualy true, however, it is impossible to see that at small size, AND knome's version works well in small size.
<zequence> After looking carefully now, I do find that knomes version might be better after all
<zequence> My initial reaction was just - it's not only a fix. It's also a change
<zequence> So, I wasn't eager to just pass it through. But, it feels right now
<zequence> So, I'll just merge that
<knome> :)
<sakrecoer> \o/
<knome> there are several reasons why it is as it is, most of them related to the old version not being symmetric and not in the middle of the circle
<sakrecoer> it's perfect! i acutaly think the hole is better balanced in knomes version
<knome> indeed - the middle of the hole is at the middle of the circle
<flocculant> no ellipses then
<knome> no
<knome> or chicken nuggets
<zequence> sakrecoer: Please use that CoF to update the wallpaper then
<sakrecoer> i will!
<sakrecoer> and it's pickles, knome and flocculant 
<sakrecoer> in that order :D
<knome> a booger it is
<sakrecoer> zequence: did you forget to pull my changes to the branch maybe?
<sakrecoer> i'm probably just confused about how bzr works again
<sakrecoer> i see the number of your commit being "4"..
<sakrecoer> yup, nevermind me...
<sakrecoer> ok i get it now.. current-standard is another branch...
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yeah, if we were using git, we might have that as a submodule to the main branch, so that it's always there, and updated
<sakrecoer> ok... then we should remove everything named "current standard" from the trunk, no?"
<sakrecoer> or at least, move it over...
<zequence> there's no current standard dir in the 1604 development branch, and neither should there e
<zequence> be*
<zequence> the trunk is only for this release. Once we are done, we'll rename it, and create a new trunk
<sakrecoer> no, but there is folder called 16.04, in which there is a copy fo the crooked cof and a text file with "current standard" in the name
<zequence> Yes, those should be changed
<zequence> That's a bit messy. The current standard file should be removed
<sakrecoer> i propose to add the color codes of the workflows in the txt file and move it to current-standrard branch
<zequence> Sure
<sakrecoer> and delete those the crooked cof and woddmark from there...
<sakrecoer> make sure noone uses them again
<knome> sakrecoer, you'd think so...
<sakrecoer> are saying they will reappear sooner or later, knome? :D
<knome> yeah, we're seeing the xubuntu logo from pre-12.04 used around the web
<knome> even if it's *completely* different
<zequence> We'll need to create a new license. UUFBC - Use Until Forbidden By Creator
<sakrecoer> hahaha!!!!
<sakrecoer> oh my, i think you  just created a monster zequence!!
<sakrecoer> UUFBC :D
<knome> zequence, as if people respected licenses..
<zequence> When FBI warnings don't even help, I guess not
<zequence> sakrecoer: (re finding something from inside a file, -r is recursive): fgrep -r <pattern> <path>
<sakrecoer> thanks!!! :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Could you also make one CoF twice the size as last time, with the ghost effect.
<zequence> resolution x2, that is. width x2, height x2
<sakrecoer> sure!
<sakrecoer> my spelling is so terrible, i should be banned from writing commit notes :|
<zequence> ubuntustudio-look is probably one of the reasons why our ISO has grown a bit lately
<zequence> It's over 100Mb
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, and if we want to use the ghost CoF with the text logo, it would be helpful if the larger spread of light was removed, or very much focused on a small area
<zequence> Right now, the png image is many multiples larger than the CoF itself, which is ok on the wallpaper.
<zequence> I'm going to try the one with the larger spread on the plymouth theme to see how that looks
<sakrecoer> the blender in the dev build is very weird...
<sakrecoer> it gives 2 different results in the viwer and the composite output, altho connected to the same node
<sakrecoer> yeah something isn't quite right, but then again, in blender so many things can be missconfigured by user. put that in the context of my hands and then lay back and relax
<sakrecoer> anyways upgrading blender is the easiest thing in the world, even tho, upgrading a blender that integrate jack remains a mystery to me
<zequence> I was able to make plymouth show a blue background. Not my intention, but at least I changed something!
<zequence> Only that. Only a blue background
<sakrecoer> :D
<sakrecoer> #009bf9?
<zequence> Not sure where it came from
<sakrecoer> from beta1 maybe? :D
<zequence> I changed the script, but for some reason it didn't work
<sakrecoer> oh, my blender issue is a lack of ram in compositor.. got a bit greedy when scaling up :D
<sakrecoer> it'll have to wait until i get home. scaling the logo instead of the resolution changes the effect...
<zequence> The plymouth theme will be pretty sweet with the new logos
<zequence> But, this is taking a lot of time :P
<zequence> Suspend froze my laptop. Our plymouth theme has artwork for suspend, but I've never actually seen it in action
<zequence> It suspended, but did so terminally
<zequence> sakrecoer: Would be great if you could smoke test the latest plymouth theme. It doesn't include the right CoF, but I can change that later. For now, I just want to know the dimensions are right
<zequence> The package is building right now
<zequence> Will be available at this PPA ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/autobuild
<zequence> Ah, maybe not. Something's not right
<zequence> Well, just pull the source for ubuntustudio-look, and build it locally with 'dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us'
<zequence> (check help for dpkg-buildpackage to see what those options mean - they allow you to build without signing)
<zequence> I just realized we have a project for plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio, and a branch for it, but it is already included in ubuntustudio-look - very nice
<zequence> Actually, it's not up yet, but will be in a few moments
<knome> zequence, ubuntustudio.org should now have the latest theme revision up
<zequence> knome: Thanks.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ok, ubuntustudio-look is updated with a new plymouth theme, so please try it
<zequence> sakrecoer: I also added a new text logo (based on an extablished madeinkobaia variant, that we have on a t-shirt) to current-standard
<zequence> The only difference is in that "Studio" is blue
<zequence> The plymouth theme needed some color. That could have been done with the background too, of course. I did add a hint of blue to it, just to make it less monochrome
<zequence> But, even so, it was too black and white.
<zequence> Ok, sleep time. Over and out for now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-07
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'll test that tonight, have to deal with tons of paperwork for the unemployment office today
<OvenWerks> Good news: qjackctl now works :) \o/
<OvenWerks> Bad news: Qjackctl comes default dbus turned off... pulse/jack bridging no longer works out of the box :P
<Anon1024> hi
<OvenWerks> hey
<zequence> OvenWerks: That truly sucks. Wonder why they did that?
<OvenWerks> Bug #1567589 
<ubottu> bug 1567589 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "New qjackctl version breaks OOTB use of pulseaudio-module-jack" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1567589
<OvenWerks> zequence: I do not think that was done on purpose. The older version of qjackctl used the option "Enable D-bus interface" _is_ enabled, but it no longer means "use jackdbus" it now means "allow qjackctl to be controlled vis dbus" there is a new option "Enable JACK D-Bus interface".
<OvenWerks> The new option needs to be enabled.
<OvenWerks> zequence: even though the indicator now works as expected, I still need to start qjackctl as:
<OvenWerks> export XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=Unity; qjackctl
<OvenWerks> to get the icon image to show correctly.
<OvenWerks> But the main thing is that the indicator menu does work correctly and it is no longer possible to "freeze" the desktop.
<zequence> OvenWerks: There must be a reason why Rui would disable that by default
<OvenWerks> zequence: ubuntu packaging makes a number of default settings changes in qjackctl. including changing Rui's default of 48k (which is more correct) to 44k1 (which is generally wrong).
<OvenWerks> Dmitry says he will fix this.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, but this was not an Ubuntu packaging change. It was upstream, or so I read from the upstream changes
<OvenWerks> zequence: when there are upstream changes, the new package is brought into ubuntu and the former patches applied... at least for settings things like this.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I am very well aware of the 48kHz vs 44.1kHz settings, but that is not what we are talking about
<zequence> We are talking about the dbus settings. Why was it changed upstream? That was my question.
<zequence> You seem to be claiming this was changed in the UBuntu packaging
<OvenWerks> zequence: to use jackd1, jackd2 or jackdbus is a personal thing. In a case where the system has only jackd1, jackdbus would have to be off to work. But in Ubuntu's case jackdbus is shipped and the pulsejack bridge package depends on the use of jackdbus.
<zequence> Still doesn't explain why upstream would change the setting.
<zequence> Let me look it up
<OvenWerks> upstream changed the _name_ of the setting, not the setting itself.
<OvenWerks> upstream changed the name of the setting because it was unclear.
<zequence> Ah, it was done in Debian, perhaps
<OvenWerks> it is even less clear now because Rui added another dbus option, so Rui changed the name of the settings.
<zequence> Or, maybe not. Maybe Dmitry tried to refresh the patch
<zequence> Ok, so as you were saying there are two options now, instead of one, and both need to be enabled
<OvenWerks> I think so. The problem is that the new option uses the same name as the old and the old one was changed.
<zequence> The patch is added in Debian already, so that is the upstream for the patch
<OvenWerks> AH, I know ubuntu adds a patch to that too. But that may be different a again I have not looked at it for a while.
<zequence> So is the patch for the rate, I noticed
<zequence> Ubuntu just copies the source as is from Debian
<zequence> THink maybe the patch may have appeard in Ubuntu first, and then added to Debian
<OvenWerks> could be. 44.1 is from the pulse team, I think.
<zequence> Dmitrys changes will be unique for xenial. Most probably Debian packaging will do something similar later
<OvenWerks> won't get changed
<OvenWerks> there is still a bug in qt5 they are hoping to get fixed by release or shortly there after.
<zequence> We need to build and test the option and give Dmitry and answer, so he can make the proper change
<zequence> I'll give it a try
<zequence> Ah, right, you already said use both options
<OvenWerks> zequence: right, I thought was it would be the same as what it has been in the past.
<OvenWerks> zequence: just noticed that my ALSA setting are no longer saved from one boot to the next.
<OvenWerks> At first I thought it was just the first time I had used it. but it seems not. (using a d66 but any ice1712 would be the same)
<zequence> OvenWerks: That's not fun
<OvenWerks> zequence: I don't know what used to do that... but it seems to me we removed something like that... an xfce utility.
<OvenWerks> knome: any thoughts about what xubuntu does with this?
<knome> let me get back to you in some time, focusing on sth else right now
<OvenWerks> zequence: this is somewhat hidden because internal IFs  get set dynamically by Pulse
<OvenWerks> knome: no problem no hurry.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sure it's not alsa?
<OvenWerks> zequence: not really sure, however, it seems I will not be able to look at it for a bit... one of my drives is failing and I need to move the system over to another drive.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it is an alsa call, but I think it is another package that does that call. That is I do not think ALSA does it automatically.
<OvenWerks> /usr/sbin/alsa-info.sh has a bug. It does not recognize jackdbus as a running jackd.
<OvenWerks> I am not usre what package that is in (or what the CLI command to find out is.
<OvenWerks> (it would be a simple patch to the shell to add jack_control status
<zequence> OvenWerks: Cool tool
<zequence> Didnt' know about that
<zequence> IT's doing much of what I was working on for -controls
<zequence> Except lots more
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-08
<OvenWerks> it comes with alsa-utils
<krytarik> zequence: Also, while this seems to work too, it looks like not using the front slash is preferrable: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/trunk/revision/179#debian/ubuntustudio-wallpapers.links , http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/dh_link.1.html
<zequence> krytarik: I see. Yes, makes sense.
<zequence> krytarik: Or, wait
<zequence> HOw ould that work? The link needs to point to something else than the sourcw
<zequence> Ah, the links are created first, then installed
<zequence> Ok, going to try that
<krytarik> zequence: Ftm, any opinion or plans on the latest changes to the Xubuntu seed?
<zequence> krytarik: What changes were those?
<zequence> I'll need to check
<zequence> Unless it breaks something for us, should be no problem syncing with them
<zequence> The links thing didn't work, so I'm renaming the file
<zequence> krytarik: Right, the gstreamer thing
<zequence> Not the fonts
<zequence> I changed it. Thanks
<krytarik> Sure.
<OvenWerks> Qjackctl works OOTB now. There are two remaining problems with systray use... the icon doesn't show (in progress) and the indicator menu seems to need two clicks to do anything. Anyway it is usable.
<zequence> Yep, the dbus options is enabled by default. Good
<zequence> Nice to have that out of the way
<OvenWerks> zequence: looking into the alsa state saving thing. ALSA does auto load the old state _if_ it has been saved to /etc/asound.state before that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: But, shouldn't that be user defined?
<OvenWerks> it used to be that got done on session end.
<OvenWerks> So once the user set levels, they would still be there next boot.
<zequence> OvenWerks: But, not in /etc, though, right?
<zequence> Seems like alsa card configs should be defined per user, i.e. in the home dir
<zequence> I mean, levels, and such
<OvenWerks> just looking at the man page for alsactl, the default file loaded is /var/lib/alsa/asound.state.
<OvenWerks> that would mean whatever saves it would have been in the system shutdown scripts.
<OvenWerks> I suspect this is a systemd bug. PA deals with most cards by setting them to reasonable levels and remembering those levels. With some of the "pro" audio cards like the ice1712, PA just adjust the level going to the card. So with an internal card this problem would not show up.
<zequence> Right
<zequence> Ingen chans att man kan fÃ¥ till ghost-effekten bara som sÃ¥dan? Eller, sÃ¥ kanske du skulle kunna testa och anvÃ¤nda den till hela textloggan?
<zequence> Funderar lite pÃ¥ sociala sidorna, dÃ¤r man skulle kunna anvÃ¤nda default wallpaper, men modifierad, med enbart textloggan
<zequence> CoF hamnar ju pÃ¥ ett annat stÃ¤lle oftast - som MUG bild, dÃ¥ liksom
<zequence> Och den skulle man ocksÃ¥ kunna Ã¤ndra
<zequence> Dessutom kan det ligga till grund fÃ¶r annat, som youtube videos och en massa annat
<zequence> JAg Ã¤r lite skeptisk till 3colorbakgrunden i de sammanhangen, men kan ju testa iaf
<zequence> (i alla sammanhang utan nÃ¤r det gÃ¤ller skrivbordbakgrunden, vill sÃ¤ga)
<zequence> Woops
<OvenWerks> ???
<zequence> Meant for Set, who does understand Swedish
<zequence> sakrecoer: ^ accidentally wrote some stuff here. Check it out when you can
<zequence> We've been working on the artwork stuff. Plymouth theme, wallpaper, icons, etc
<OvenWerks> No problem
<zequence> OvenWerks: I started using recipes for all our sources. They autobuild to ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/autobuild
<zequence> OvenWerks: Pretty nifty. Easy to keep track of changes, since you get new builds every day, if someting was changed
<zequence> OvenWerks: Latest plymouth and wallpaper is there, if you want to check those out
<OvenWerks> so you have expanded it then. used to only be a few.
<zequence> Yep
<zequence> I have it on my dev machine right now. Nice way to keep everything in check in between uploads
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: all you need to know is "sakta men sÃ¤kert" (slowly but surely) :D
<OvenWerks> zequence: /etc/init.d/alsa-utils should be (re)storing alsa settings
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok. So, as you said, a systemd bug then?
<OvenWerks> still looking :)
<OvenWerks> init.d bug
<OvenWerks> It appears we now use runlevel 5 for our standard run rather than runlevel 2 as in the past.
<zequence> I forget which was what. Didn't Red Hat/Fedora do it that way, while Debian based used less?
<zequence> So, now with systemd (and it was developed at Red Hat), it requires init.d to be configured as for Red Hat?
<OvenWerks> not sure, RL2 in days gone by (when I used Slackware) was CLI only, and RL5 was X.
<OvenWerks> alsa-utils does run in RL2 :)
<zequence> Yes, Debian reduced the amount
<OvenWerks> Anyway, bug time.
<OvenWerks> in my opinion alsa-utils should be run in RL 2,3,4,5
<OvenWerks> but in our case at least RL5
<zequence> Think Debian and Ubuntu only had up to RL2 before, so probably more than a few packages that do it that way https://www.debian-administration.org/article/212/An_introduction_to_run-levels
<OvenWerks> Bug #1567993
<ubottu> bug 1567993 in alsa-utils (Ubuntu) "alsa-utils does not store and restore alsa settings on boot reboot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1567993
<OvenWerks> Anyone who can reproduce this should confirm it.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Don't have the hardware to try it on right now
<OvenWerks> zequence: I added the bug here too: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds/116443/testcases/1455/results
<OvenWerks> looking at the "Bugs to look for" I can confirm the fixes all seem to be working.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, actually alsa-utils is not in rc2.d either, but in rcS.d. I think that gets run before switching to final RL anyway. So the problem may be elsewhere
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, there's a fix already on its way?
<OvenWerks> in /var/log/syslog I find: systemd-udevd[400]: Process '/usr/sbin/alsactl -E HOME=/run/alsa restore 0' failed with exit code 99.
<OvenWerks> So it appears that restore is done by udevd as the device becomes available so that USB devices get reset.
<OvenWerks> The directory /run/alsa does not exist.
<OvenWerks> zequence: you will likely be finding alsa restore failed messages on your machine too as it fails for each of my three audio interfaces.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Right. And, I have it, so confirming
<snapfractalpop> if I install US 16.04 beta, will it just become the normal release with updates when the official release is out?
<flocculant> if you install the beta then you will be many Mb's of packages out of date as soon as you do - milestones are snapshots 
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: I'm planning on installing on a few laptops to donate to low income children / families
<snapfractalpop> I would update to latest after installing.. but was wondering if it will "sort itself out" as the official release comes out
<flocculant> yep - that makes no difference to the fact the beta is now well out of date :) 
<flocculant> any of the *buntu alpha or beta are :)
<flocculant> you could do it that way - but frankly - the daily is as up to date as possible
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: I'm game to use the daily.. 
<snapfractalpop> but I guess one thing I'm wondering about is if the selection of packages will change.. and if that will throw them off
<krytarik> zequence, sakrecoer: Giving this a thought, linking '/usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio' and '/usr/share/xfce4/backdrops' directly seems to be a pretty bad idea, potentially causing all sorts of coinstallability issues and confusion on the user side - so I'd suggest just following the pattern and linking the former as a subdirectory to the latter.
<flocculant> not sure - I only hang about in here with a qa head on - and I'm really Xubuntu QA :p
<snapfractalpop> I just want to give them a nice easy linux experience, but without the unity / modern memory bloat of the vanilla dist
<snapfractalpop> I love ubustu because it uses xfce (lightweight) and has lots of fun audio/video/graphics apps right out of the boxd
<snapfractalpop> box*
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> snapfractalpop: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ from yesterday
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: thanks!
<flocculant> today's failed to build seemingly
<OvenWerks> flocculant: failed to download repo lists
<flocculant> snapfractalpop: returning to your "will it be final" then yes it should be 
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: great. thanks for the quick response
<flocculant> OvenWerks: aaah - I wonder if that's actually an issue somewhere then - I was trying upgrades from trusty/wily to xenial and they were crashing out
<snapfractalpop> I'm kind of pumped that these laptops will maybe help someone, instead of ending up in the dump
<flocculant> eg not *just* a studio issue
<OvenWerks> flocculant: ya I think a respin would "just work" once the servers are up
 * OvenWerks is off to a DR appt
<flocculant> snapfractalpop: probably shouldn't say it in someone else's dev channel - but is studio what these  low income children / families would actually use? 
<snapfractalpop> well.. here's how I see it: it runs on old laptops, has lots of good default app selections, I will further tweak to add other things
<flocculant> right - but a disrto specifially aimed at media production was my point :)
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: if you know of another option that is better suited, I'm definitely open to other options
<snapfractalpop> flocculant: I think things like blender and gimp, etc. are pretty good tools for any children to learn on 
<flocculant> go for it then :)
<flocculant> as I said - not my place to sell a distro in someone else's dev channel ;)
<snapfractalpop> I thought about the educational distros too, but I also feel like I can have the best of both worlds (aptitute install whatever)
<snapfractalpop> aptitude*
<snapfractalpop> anyway, thanks for the help
<flocculant> welcome :)
<OvenWerks> flocculant: might do to remind people like that they do not have to install _everything_. Studio allows cherry picking. My first thought was why not xubuntu...
<flocculant> OvenWerks: well yea - mine too - but as I said :p
<OvenWerks> :)
<flocculant> if he'd been in -offtopic I might have said something :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-09
 * OvenWerks is watching miniLAC on parol.
<OvenWerks> https://streaming.media.ccc.de/minilac16/
<knome> would somebody willing to help the xubuntu team in writing an article about media manager options in the repository? 
<knome> if yes, i'm preparing the article on a pad at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-mm-other - feel free to join
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: watch the miniLAC, Qstuff https://streaming.media.ccc.de/minilac16/relive/15/
<OvenWerks> Rui has a nicer colour on his version of qtracktor.
<OvenWerks> Adjustable within qtractor to "Wonton Soup" with style "Plastique"
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-10
<sakrecoer> looking into those things kryte mentioned yesterday, not sure i get it... but as he suggested in a query, i optimized the pictures with optipng and jpegoptim and it gave a rather poor result...
<sakrecoer> do i get it right when i understand that the first path should have no leading slash? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/trunk/revision/179/debian/ubuntustudio-wallpapers.links
<sakrecoer> as put in the example he sent: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/dh_link.1.html
<zequence> sakrecoer: I already changed that
<zequence> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/trunk/revision/188
<zequence> sakrecoer: Why did you add the author name to the wallpaper name for each wallpaper in the gnome .xml file
<zequence> You know what that does?
<zequence> That is what will show instead of the actual file name when selecting wallpapers in at least Gnome
<zequence> I don't want our names in there. Just the name of the wallpapers
<zequence> So, please put that back as it was
<zequence> And, why are you renaming old wallpapers that have already been released?
<zequence> Doesn't make sense to rename files that are already known
<zequence> unless there's a bug
<zequence> It's backwards
<zequence> The worst that can happen with wallpapers is that someone already has one of those as their default. When they upgrade, it isn't anymore, cause the filename changed
<zequence> NEver a good idea to change file names, just out of pedantism
<zequence> Even worse when done in programming
<krytarik> zequence: Regarding that, you realize that the package just keeps on growing anyway?
<zequence> krytarik: Yes, I'm very well aware of that. What's your point?
<zequence> You want to skim off 20MB out of our 2.6GB ISO?
<OvenWerks> sort of a thing in computers in general, everything grows.
<zequence> As I already said last time you mentioned that - maybe next time there is a wallpaper contest, only the five best are included - and the art team can decide which of the old ones stay
<zequence> Changing filenames just for the fun of it is a bit of waste of time, if you ask me
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think the bigger thing as you mentioned is that it breaks things.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Exactly
<sakrecoer> zequence: some had the author some dont it was about 50/50 so i thought: either we remove all authors or we add...
<sakrecoer> but sure, i can remove them from there..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Might be cfhowlett did some of that, I'm not sure. His choice. But, I'd rather go with just having a pretty name for the wallpaper, nothing else.
<zequence> Since those were from the contest, that makes a little bit of sense
<zequence> I wouldn't do it that way though
<zequence> sakrecoer: MOre importantly, never change filenames unless you have a really good reason
<zequence> For stuff that is yet not released, it's less of a matter
<zequence> But, older stuff, it's a big no no. NOt the end of the world, when it comes to wallpapers, but still
<sakrecoer> ok, so middle ground: i leave the credits in the pretty name-space on the entires from the contest and remove them elsewhere. no more filname changes until we plan for next blueprints. is that a viable sollution? 
<sakrecoer> adding "1604_ghostcolor.png" to debian/copyright also. fixed it but i'll wait a little before i push. maybe you will catch something else that is missing or needs correction...
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, I haven't been looking actually. Just push whatever's left. I'll just go though each package before upload
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ok, I see your commit has got trough. Getting late, so I will upload the packages first thing tomorrow
<zequence> Still need to fix some icons too.
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-04
<OvenWerks> In lou of meeting :)  I have been testing the 64bit iso and so far it is looking good to me. Live session runs ok, installs ok and installed version works ok. I am downloading todays iso as I think it should include newer Ardour. Still wondering if anyone does sheet music creation in here.
<OvenWerks> Looking at musescore and denemo... I can't really tell if one is better than the other. Denemo does add Lillypad.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-05
<OvenWerks> bye bye unity and mir
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-06
<OvenWerks> krytarik: done. I shold have added to the comment that this fixes lp: #1672412
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1672412 in wine-development (Ubuntu) "FFe: Merge wine 2.0-4 and wine-development 2.4-1 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1672412
<OvenWerks> Or allows anyway.
<OvenWerks> also lp: #1182604
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1182604 in lmms (Ubuntu) "AMD64 lmms package doesn't have Vestige VST support while the i386 does" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1182604
<OvenWerks> well not really, it fixes it for us though :)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: the whole windows vst (as compared to lxvst) thing is a mess. There are at least 4 kinds of windows vsts floating around that are not mutually compatible
<OvenWerks> So far as I know, lmms supports only 32 bit vst2s. The GPLed vst3 headers have just within the past month been released although vst3s have been around for a while.
<OvenWerks> there are also 64bit win vsts which will not work already with lmms... I am not sure of the state of wine with 64bit binaries either. I do know some work has been done though.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: so the end of this is that lmms at best only supports 1 kind of winvst out of 4. I don't expect lmms to include vst3 or 64bit code real soon now as the lead dev has left and there is some dissarry in the project. I do not think it will die, it seems those left are still well involved, but it may take some time to move forward again.
<OvenWerks> there is also the deal of lmms including support for LV2 which I would think is more important right now.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: something to look for next cycle is that in debian jack-tools has been renamed to jack-plumbing. Not in ubuntu ... yet, but we would want this package whatever the name.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: 1.) Thanks for the commit, let's see if it works.  2.) Thanks for the verbose extra info. :)  3.) I only see an executable called jack-plumbing, in the jack-tools package; and that's at the same version in Debian and Ubuntu.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: "I think the meta packages have to be regenerated to go with it" - luckily not in this case.
<OvenWerks> cool. I have sent some emails as well, so that others can know why
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Well, that didn't work.
<OvenWerks> What did it do? I haven't seen failed emails yet.
<krytarik> I mean it still pulls the Wine stuff.
<OvenWerks> That is normally the effect of not rebuilding the metas
<OvenWerks> did it pull in lmms-vst-server?
<krytarik> Yes.
<OvenWerks> So our understanding of how to do things is flawed.
<krytarik> No, just blacklisting more often doesn't work than it does.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: So I suggest for now you just ACK the Wine FFe, and then we'll have to see later.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I may have to try a 32 bit install
<OvenWerks> Then I can lookup reverse deps
<OvenWerks> I did I think
 * OvenWerks hopes his comment was clear
<OvenWerks> krytarik: maybe if we blacklist wine as well?
<OvenWerks> (we may have to blacklist specific wine as well)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: after looking at my last few lines of comment :P  I did leave a comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine-development/+bug/1672412
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1672412 in wine-development (Ubuntu) "FFe: Merge wine 2.0-4 and wine-development 2.4-1 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Yes, figured I'll just reload the bug report page and see if you added one there. :P  Also, one thing we could still try is to blacklist it the way Kubuntu did it just recently: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/kubuntu.zesty/revision/1358 - and in that context, we might blacklist that one right away too, even though the package doesn't exist in the repos ...
<krytarik> ... yet.
<krytarik> lol
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I can do that, but I am pretty sure it would require a meta rebuild to work.
<krytarik> Nope, that one neither.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing it needs to come before lmms itself
<OvenWerks> So the two lines are:
<OvenWerks>  * !lmms-vst-server
<OvenWerks>  * (lmms)
<krytarik> Yup, that's sensible.
<OvenWerks> commited please check
<OvenWerks> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.zesty/revision/1506
<OvenWerks> krytarik: if that doesn't work we will put it just after. I am not sure of the logic, but programacically it would be easier to remove a program from the list after it has been added rather than saving the name to check each new adition against...
<OvenWerks> krytarik: the network-manager-config-connectivity package is troublesome also because low latency audio operation is sensitive to network activity.
<krytarik> Well, following the 'above' logic, you should have done the same for the NM one too - but as I was about to say, I'd have to look at the code of germinate again to confirm either way.
<krytarik> Ah, good to know.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: So looks like it doesn't really matter in what order they are - https://git.launchpad.net/germinate/tree/germinate/germinator.py   Also, I'd suggest we do a respin now, since it's RC day.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-07
<krytarik> OvenWerks: So the other way of blacklisting lmms-vst-server failed the same - checked it earlier this evening.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-08
<OvenWerks> krytarik: ok so now what?
<OvenWerks> need new metas?
<krytarik> No, that's not it.
<OvenWerks> That doesn't make sense
<krytarik> Well, like I said, mostly blacklisting doesn't work - so we'd have to initiate "fixing" the dependencies of the lmms package.
<krytarik> And to be a bit more verbose as to why blacklisting doesn't require updating of the metapackages - because they only list packages that *are* wanted.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-03
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I just enabled the daily build of us-controls for Bionic btw.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-05
<metalbiker> is there going to be an Ubuntu Studio 18.04 LTS? I cruised through the website and I haven't seen anything about the betas. 
<metalbiker> or i'm just blind one. lol
<OvenWerk1> krytarik: thank you, it hasn't built yet but I made some changes so it should now.
<krytarik> Yeah, indeed.
<OvenWerk1> it can now notice that a USB audio inteface has been plugged in and connect it to jack
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-06
<OvenWerks> -controls is ready for some more testing. It no longer seems to connect everything in sight when left over night. Still need to work on being able to connect moe than one USB device... well disconnect would be the trouble I think.
<len__> I still hate the theme... It is ok for browsing or other one applicate at a time use... but really, a decoration with a different colour on the window top bar would be nice.
<len__> Ah well,
<len__> I too notice that the Studio Application chooser is missing in the installer.
<len__>  (but I don't know how to fix it)
<len__> I still prefer the application menu over whisker, but I know others like the built in search in whisker maybe -controls should offer the choice.
<len__> though I am not sure how easy this is to change while running, and asking someone to logout/login is :P
<OvenWerks> Anyway everything seems to work ok, installs, runs ... as much as I have tested :)
<OvenWerks> Jack starts, pulse auto connects, a2j works... It could use a new backdrop though for 18.04
<OvenWerks> qjackctl still requires two clicks on the dropdown from the menu bar.
<OvenWerks> zynaddsubfx does not have the new GUI yet.
<OvenWerks> I managed to get sound out of LMMS.
<OvenWerks> with regard to backdrops, ubuntustudio_1404_logo.jpg would work really well on dual monitors if it was moved to the left so the centre line of the circle was also the centre line of the image.
<captain-tux> Hi Len, that could work. But does Xfce even extend wallpapers over two outputs?
<OvenWerks> captain-tux: yes.
<OvenWerks>  I am using that image right now across two screens
<OvenWerks> settings desktop -> Style -> spanning screens
<captain-tux> Oh okay, I wasn't aware. My displays are above each other, so I haven't bothered until now. :D
<captain-tux> Ah.
<OvenWerks> spanning screens should not be available if there are not two screens though
<OvenWerks> captain-tux: I have added two bugs, one for ubuiquity (well actually ubuntustudio-live) for no application chooser and one for qjackctl because the indicator dropdown menu is goofy.
<captain-tux> Is it too late for a wallpaper contest already? Could get some interesting results if the task is to create something responsive that works well with multiple screens..
<OvenWerks> considering it would have to start and end this month... prolly too late
<captain-tux> Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure if I should add it to ubuntustudio-live or not. I havn't actually noticed anything weird with qjackctl. But I still have the installation here, I'll check once more.
<captain-tux> Oh, no wait. You said indicator dropdown, yes.. there's something strange going on.
<OvenWerks> bug lp:1761884 and lp:1761887
<OvenWerks> hmm, it used to grab them before bug 1761884
<ubottu> bug 1761884 in ubuntustudio-live "Studio application selector does not show up while installing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1761884
<OvenWerks> Like that I guess
<OvenWerks> bug 1761887
<ubottu> bug 1761887 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "indicator dropdown menu requires two clicks to operate." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1761887
<OvenWerks> captain-tux: it would be good if you can confirm them
<OvenWerks> It seems something has changed in the commands I used to install -controls.
<captain-tux> Oh great, what's this now.. *sigh*
<captain-tux> Just tried to confirm them on launchpad, but as I click on "It affects me", I get a weird iframe with some red HTML and an Ok-button and nothing happens. Ever heard that before?
<OvenWerks> hm, new to me... but then I haven't confirmed anything lately.
<captain-tux> Hmm nope, disabling add-ons didn't help, either. Are they too fresh or something... <title>Error: Launchpad system error</title> Well.
<captain-tux> Ah, nevermind.
<OvenWerks> Well it seems to work here except I cant confirm cause I wrote it :)
<captain-tux> Yes, my fault, sorry.. I don't want to talk about it. :D
<captain-tux> Are you able to open multiple instances of the qjackctl indicator menu as well when you click on it repeatedly>
<OvenWerks> just one... unless I am testing something different.
<OvenWerks> In the end, I think Rui is just discusted with the whole QT support of indicators and will ignore any more bug reports about it. It used to work really well when it was a systray deal... but systray stuff doesn't work so well with some indicator parts of the pannel.
<OvenWerks> did you confirm https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-live/+bug/1761884 as well?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1761884 in ubuntustudio-live "Studio application selector does not show up while installing" [Undecided,New]
<krytarik> Any idea when that last showed up anyway?
<OvenWerks> I don't know about 17.10 because I didn't test that, but I think I remember it there in 17.04
<OvenWerks> Im wondering if it is something simple like python version.
<captain-tux> OvenWerks, yep. Confirmed both.
<OvenWerks> Thanks.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: one of the packages it depends on has been updated since I installed 3 hours ago.
<OvenWerks> (gir1.2-gtk-3.0)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-07
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I actually dropped it as a dependency from the seed here: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.bionic/revision/1508 - assuming it's referring back to the seed itself, rather than another, non-meta package with the same name.  So one could try just adding it back.
<OvenWerks> that would do it...
<OvenWerks> the date looks like right after I last tested it :P
<OvenWerks> So just the live file seems to need it.
<OvenWerks> Was it removed for being broken in some way?
<krytarik> Yeah, and no refresh of the metapackages needed in this case either.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: You could try just installing it in the Live session and see if it works.
<ErichEickmeyer> Woah! Looks like a party in here!
<krytarik> Oh nooo!  Everybody hide!
<ErichEickmeyer> hehe
<OvenWerks> krytarik: Ja dat seems to work. I did not do a full install... but close enough.
<krytarik> Ok, who of us gets the honor of readding it to the seed then? :P
<krytarik> (I'd be fine doing it myself.)
<OvenWerks> krytarik: ya, maybe do that. With booting and rebooting, I'm getting lost.
<krytarik> Ok then.
<OvenWerks> I have a spare partition I can test with when it gets respun
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Committed and pushed.
<metalbiker> has there been any talk about changing the DE some to make ubuntu studio fresh? maybe adding options to choose a different desktop environmnet upon installation?
<OvenWerks> metalbiker: yes, but not for 18.04
<OvenWerks> metalbiker: perhpas stick around (or come back) in about 3.5 hours for todays meeting...
<metalbiker> ovenwerks: sounds good! i'll do my best to be here at that time.
<OvenWerks> as an aside, imo, "fresh" is not very important, workflow is. I find many newer DEs make my workflow worse, take away cpu my DSP could be using, etc.
<OvenWerks> many of the newer DEs are pretty good for average use with one full screen application at a time. I never have less than two windows open on a screen, with 5 being my average.
<metalbiker> ovenwerks: understood. after rethinking my question, you'd really need a very lean DE like what ubuntu studio's got. and i think it's xfce, correct? but i understand that workflows are very important.
<OvenWerks> xfce, at the time we switched from gnome2 was sort of the best compromise.
<OvenWerks> lxde had a patched together feel and lacked some features generally thought of as normal, gnome3 would not even run on a lot of common hardware.
<OvenWerks> unity was to much like a phone
<OvenWerks> kde is ok, but we have so many gtk based applications it didn't make sense
<OvenWerks> That is changing as more of the graphics applications use qt or kde libs
<OvenWerks> However, KDE has chosen not to follow some of the window placing standards which means multi-window applications like Ardour or Gimp end up with windows covered by other windows that should not be
<OvenWerks> metalbiker: we could use more people (like at least one :) working on theming and such to keep things fresher that way.
<metalbiker> understood. i use Kubuntu for general purposes and I do like the plasma desktop a lot. i remember back when i first started using studio for my recording work, it did feel like it was just patched together and not very smooth for some reason.
<OvenWerks> on the other hand there is at least one person who wants the DE to feel like gnome2 did complete with icons and everything else.
<metalbiker> ovenwerks: i'd be interested in helping with theming but i don't have any programming knowledge at the moment. i mean, i can design some graphics using GIMP and other tools of that nature and i might be able to help.
<OvenWerks> I had three of our family computers on KDE for a while (wife and sons) but we are down to just 1
<OvenWerks> That would be great. theming is not my thing at all :) the menu setup is mostly mine though.
<metalbiker> cool! i'm going back to school to finish my bachelor's degree in software development and at the same time, i'm going to be working on my music so helping with theming'll be a great project for me.
<OvenWerks> one thing I will say about kde is that the kde menu setup is one of the few that are correct. xfce, gnome, lxde menus are wrong (in one small point) in a way that keeps custom menu from working correctly
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio needs more people, some of us have just been around to long and most are too busy with life.
<metalbiker> oh yeah, i agree! i love the amount of customization you get with it. i used xfce, or xubuntu, for a while and it was ok. gnome 2, eh. gnome 3 was better. never used lxde and i should. kde feels right.
<metalbiker> i've always been a super big fan of ubuntu studio since i'm a musician and since i've gotten older, i've gotten more involved with distros but mainly in testing. i just usually grab the very first daily build and ride it out and file bugs. but to get a chance to help with making themes for studio, i'm down for that.
<OvenWerks> when I use kde, I generally use it with the win95 menus ;)
<metalbiker> sometime today i'm looking to finally put together my recording rig and it'll of course having ubuntu studio on it and i'm excited to see it run.
<metalbiker> win95 menus??!! lol i didn't know there was such an option! 
<metalbiker> wow, windows 95. dude, that makes me feel old. lmao that was 23 years ago. i remember when it came out. lol oh boy.
<OvenWerks> I can't remember what they call it, vintage or something... clasic maybe?
<OvenWerks> *classic
<metalbiker> could be. i just use the default theme. but i'm testing kubuntu 18.04 on this laptop here and i'll be getting the beta release of ubuntu studio later for my recording rig.
<OvenWerks> I also like to have multiple workspaces
<OvenWerks> (I use 4 normally... not as crazy as some xfwm setups)
<metalbiker> now that i do like. the multiple workspaces. like being able to put ardour on one screen/workspace and place another program for something else on the other screen.
<OvenWerks> I like a clean desktop with no icones on it
<OvenWerks> I do like the gnome3 idea of not creating extra workspaces until you put an application there.
<OvenWerks> (unity did this too)
<OvenWerks> kde and gnome have the advantage of a bigger dev group, xfce and lxde are both two people.
<metalbiker> yeah, i really liked that. i remember studio having multiples i think. 
<metalbiker> what?! there's only 2 people for the latter? whoa. 
<OvenWerks> Thats the fist thing I do when I install US is make 4 workspaces and add the ws changer to the pannel
<metalbiker> i know one my fellow loco team members is part of the xubuntu council or something. 
<metalbiker> and you can assign workspaces to specific monitors, correct?
<OvenWerks> xubuntu has a greater number, but xfce itself is quite small.
<metalbiker> oh, i see. 
<OvenWerks> one my setup the two monitors are like one big monitor.
<metalbiker> i've got to step out for a bit. bbiab
<OvenWerks> so the two screens makeup one workspace. I think that is the only way xfce (and most DEs) work.
<OvenWerks> Wow 16 people in the channel... must be a record...
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's what happens when you start drawing attention to a project. :)
<OvenWerks> I think drawing attention to it's possible demise helped too.
<captain-tux_> Hi guys
<OvenWerks> o/
<eylul> hi
<eylul> hi
<eylul> and yeah
<pmd1> Hi All
<eylul> oh if you don't mind me asking who is who from the ML btw? for those who is using different names? :)
<pmd1> I am Daniel. new to irc chat.
<eylul> hi! :)
<captain-tux_> Hi, I'm Thomas from the mailinglist.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> I have to repeat and agree with what OvenWerks said by the way. it is nice to see the chatroom occupied and people interested in continuing the project
<captain-tux_> Yes, same. I'm happy that so many responded to the meetup request, it's really cool.
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm here.
<eylul> welcome
<captain-tux_> Hello :)
<ErichEickmeyer> o/
<captain-tux_> Should we get started or wait a couple more minutes?
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably wait a little. I just now got OvenWerks's email.
<ErichEickmeyer> Just to give people a little extra.
<captain-tux_> Yep, okay. :D 
<eylul> do you guys have a meeting agenda planned? or a list of topics? or we are doing this freestyle? :)
<OvenWerks> from past experinece... I would say we are all here already... the email was a just in case.
<ErichEickmeyer> It looks like we're all here. I have no agenda unless somebody else does.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably one thing should be to ratify who is on the council.
<OvenWerks> release, artwork, next cycle?
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> also state of existing projects
<eylul> although some of that has been sorted in ML
<OvenWerks> Are daily spins stopped? If so we should request a respin for bug fix.
<ErichEickmeyer> The daily spins seem to be rolling, Ross would have more insight on that.
<OvenWerks> the bug with the application chooser on install shold be fixed and needs testing after a spin.
<ErichEickmeyer> I had a brief conversation with the Xubuntu QA lead, and he said he had worked with Ross in the past on the daily spins / beta freezes.
<captain-tux_> Ah, okay. I'll have a look at that.
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, it seems as though, from the Facebook comments and what-not, the bugs seem to be a minimum.
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed, the app chooser needs to be fixed.
<ErichEickmeyer> We can talk about this later, but I have an idea for a DE chooser as well, keeping it with Xfce as the default.
<OvenWerks> the fix should be in, just need a respin to check it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Fix for the installer app chooser. â
<captain-tux_> Alright.
<ErichEickmeyer> How about -control? Who was working on that?
<OvenWerks> me
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. How is that coming?
<OvenWerks> there has been work and there is use for testing
<OvenWerks> The missing part has been found :) and now the GUI can talk to the daemon.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Are we too late to get it in the dailys or even the bionic repo?
<OvenWerks> Thats a ross question
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. So, that's something that needs to be talked about in the mailing list then since I'm not seeing Ross here.
<eylul> we can sometimes request exceptions to feature freeze. 
<eylul> but the question also is do we have time to test it enough to put it in beta?
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably not a bad idea.
<ErichEickmeyer> It's too late for beta, afaik.
<OvenWerks> -controls is still somewhat alpha, there are some known bugs
<eylul> maybe a better solution can be to put it in as soon as next cycle starts
<OvenWerks> I agree
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: How comfortable would you feel in including it by default as a new feature, but with the "alpha" or "beta" status warning?
<eylul> and put eyes on it during the 6 month period? it will also give it plenty of time to mature until next LTS
<OvenWerks> do yu mean this cycle or next?
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, getting it in 18.10 is a great idea.
<OvenWerks> next cycle for sure.
<ErichEickmeyer> I meant this cycle, but if we can't or you don't feel comfortable, then next definitely.
<OvenWerks> must have been a new spin, my iso is dl at 86%
<OvenWerks> getting bug fixes in to an already released package is harder than in the next cycle.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, then let's just push it to 18.10 along with any other new features.
<OvenWerks> I am not good at packaging, backports, etc.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anybody else agree?
<captain-tux_> Sounds logical.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, cool. I'm going to be writing up the meeting minutes and I'll post them on the website.
<eylul> I think that is a good solution also backporting down the line is a solution. :) 
<OvenWerks> It is of course available from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild for 18.04 as well.
<aleb> Hi, I'm a Pitivi video editor maintainer.
<eylul> hi!!!
<captain-tux_> Hello
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. I've been considering we do a backports repo akin to Kubuntu.
<pmd11> Hi Aleb
<ErichEickmeyer> Hi Aleb!
<eylul> Erich the main problem.. just going to bring it up here as we have to discuss
<eylul> is people power
<eylul> we have one person experienced in packaging. 2 developers with limited time
<eylul> otherwise we have plenty of ideas. so maybe one thing to consider when we think about these projects :)
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Absolutely. I'm not experienced in packaging .deb, but I've packaged .rpm in the past and I'm working on transferring those skills.
<eylul> is how to sort that :)
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> I am just putting that out there. because it is something that has been bothering me, our limited dev resources and our unability to train
<eylul> which turned into a vicious circle in past releases
 * OvenWerks can make a package that installs... but not one that pleases debian or ubuntu :P
<eylul> debian packages are tricky.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Yeah. I totally agree, but, even though I'm not really well-known, I'm fairly well-connected. I was part of the Ubuntu MATE project when it first started and can get tips from Martin Wimpress (flexiondotorg) if he has time.
<OvenWerks> -controls is all script for that reason. I would prefer c++ with fltk, but packaging becomes harder
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, perhaps that could be a future port, but I think to have the featurs that -controls is getting would be a huge boon to future improvements.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, next subject: artwork. Our artwork has been pretty much the same for the past couple releases, and we should logically stay put for this release, but does anybody have any ideas for 18.10?
<eylul> there was a plan to make some new wallpapers. I do have SOME photography but nothing that is branded so to speak
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Same.
<OvenWerks> normally... we make our biggest art changes for an LT
<OvenWerks>  ;)
<eylul> yeah and I did drop the ball on that last fall
<OvenWerks> we all did
<ErichEickmeyer> It would be nice to have big art changes for this LTS, but I fear it's too late unless we can get some sort of exception, but for artwork that seems like a longshot at this point.
<eylul> when IS the release exactly?
<OvenWerks> even a new backdrop would be nice
<captain-tux_> 27th? 19th is RC, right?
<ErichEickmeyer> 27th is correct.
<eylul> I might be able to put something together but I do need some ideas what type of thing we want. do we want photography? do we want another iteration of logo? 
<ErichEickmeyer> RC is the 19th.
<eylul> ouch
<captain-tux_> Well, Len said that the 14.04 wallpaper would work well for single and dual monitor setups and I agree. Maybe there's a way to make one similar, just a little bigger without much hassle?
<ErichEickmeyer> My bad, 26th is correct, the RC on the 19th is still correct for final freeze aka RC.
<captain-tux_> Otoh, some recently complemented me on the stock 16.04 wallpaper, so... ;)
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, if we want to change or add wallpaper, we have <12 days.
<eylul> alright let me look into this, this weekend
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> How about theming? Still stick with Numix Blue?
<OvenWerks> Something that can be split down the middle and loose some of the top and bottom looks good on dual monitors... if they are side by side. maybe not so nice if they are top and bottom.
<ErichEickmeyer> Forgive my ignorance, but is Xfce even capable of that?
<OvenWerks> I would like to see some thing (anything) with a contrasting title bar for focus
<OvenWerks> I always change to Moheli
<captain-tux_> ErichEickmeyer, yes. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Hmmm... I was going to suggest Arc or Adapta since they have dark variants for those who need it, but I'm open to other ideas.
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: Thanks. :)
<eylul> Ovenwerks: nods*
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer: I think main thing is that it is relatively minimalistic and.. well
<eylul> something with easy to grab sides would be nice
<eylul> in terms of windowing theme, that is one of the primary issues I was noticing from the usability perspective back when I used XFCE
<eylul> when you resize the window etc
<OvenWerks> right grabable sides and corners too.
<captain-tux_> Wa that a Greybird issue?
<eylul> which one were we using by default?
<OvenWerks> There is no particular issue besides we end up with whatever xubuntu chooses.
<eylul> (I kind of had my own custom window decorations so rarely used the default US ones)
<OvenWerks> numix I think is default.
<captain-tux_> eylul, same, good question... :/
<ErichEickmeyer> Last I checked, Xubuntu was still using Greybird, but maybe i don't remember correctly.
<eylul> It might have been
<ErichEickmeyer> I just remember that UbuStu has a different default theme.
<captain-tux_> I'll start my beta live system.
<OvenWerks> greybird has both no side corner handles as well as all grey title.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, having something that functions the way we like it and can agree is priority. Perhaps we experiment with different themes and report back?
<OvenWerks> xubuntu is a general/easy to use flavour so while it is nice to be able to base things off of xubuntu, our needs are different
<eylul> I would say easy to grab sides and corners is pretty universal
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> Studio is not a browsing flavour, but a development (art development as happens) flavour
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed, and if we decide to add DEs in the future, it would be nice to have something that looks good on whatever DEs we go with.
<eylul> *sincerely hopes answer to that doesn't mean creating a custom theme* XD
<OvenWerks> Do themes work with more than one DE?
<eylul> which it very well might
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes. You can usually find both GTK2/3 variants of the same theme, and Qt is starting to get versions of those themes adapted.
<ErichEickmeyer> Bear in mind, Xfce is the only widely-used DE that is still basing on GTK2.
<ErichEickmeyer> Until... 4.14?
<OvenWerks> hm, I thought some of xfce (or it's bits) were already gtk3
<OvenWerks> (shows what I know)
<captain-tux_> Okay, so NumixBlue is indeed the standard theme right now and it does have those 1px edges/corners... however, so do the others I've tried out right now, could this be a wm issue maybe?
<OvenWerks> moheli works and has bigger handles
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: I believe it could be the WM. Now that I think about it, I have had trouble grabbing window sides/corners in Xfce.
<eylul> the fun part of XFCE window decorations (and I can elaborate more on this on ML) is that it is not possible to create transparent areas that you can crab
<eylul> so you either end up with borders on side, visible ones, or well..
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. That's problematic.
<eylul> I did have some partial solution to that that worked for me (columns of line with space in between) which is better but not THAT better
<captain-tux_> Do Xubuntu people have problems with this?
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: That I couldn't tell you.
<eylul> crab -> grab
<OvenWerks> There ahs been quite a lot of talk about changing DE (for 1810 i assume) so theme would come after.
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, I know in the ML I proposed a switch to MATE, but I feel as though an option to install an UbuStu themed MATE would be a better solution rather than a complete replacement, as to not break workflow.
<OvenWerks> xubuntu is more and more designed as a "one application, full screen" flavour
<eylul> ah.. that explains. XFCE is far from gone. I know gamers still prefer it for its low footprint.. but and as for switch
<ErichEickmeyer> The advantage MATE would have is the extreme flexibility but not at the cost of having too many options.
<OvenWerks> xubuntu used to come with two workspaces, but no longer does. (we seem to have inherited this too)
<ErichEickmeyer> It'd be like being back on Gnome 2 but with a ton of improvements.
<eylul> last I used mate
<eylul> I did find it a bit restrictive
<eylul> but then again that was a while ago
<eylul> and it is very actively developed
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'd recommend trying out UbuMATE, just to see its capabilities. I think there's a lot of projects there (the Welcome app, for instance) that could be adapted for our use.
<eylul> I love the welcome app / software center
<OvenWerks> so perhaps after 1804 is out we should all download each flavour, add studio metas and see how it feels for a week
<ErichEickmeyer> Martin has done an amazing job.
<eylul> I can give feedback on KDE
<eylul> have been using it for a while now but yeah I should try the other flavors again
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I've used Plasma extensively (remember, KDE is the organization/community, not the DE anymore).
<eylul> ah
<pmd11> i have earlier tried ubuntu mate and installed ubuntu studio meta data. I felt it is nice to me. but i am using ubuntu studio for video editing and not audio
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm also friends with Valorie Zimmerman (she lives in my home town) of the Kubuntu council.
<ErichEickmeyer> I just used UbuStu with MATE installed on top just this past tuesday for live audio, and it was quite effective.
<OvenWerks> kde/plasma has a known problem with multiwindow applications like gimp and ardour
<eylul> I like Plasma's activity option, and it really REALLY has good tools for visual artists. (that's what I am btw ;) ) but it does still crash from time to time, and feels heavy compared to XFCE. 
<eylul> what is it?
<OvenWerks> I personally also find kde's audio manager a pain as well
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I have seen that, and I believe there are ways to overcome those (changing the taskbar widget, etc.).
<pmd11> plasma is very flexible but resource hungry
<eylul> that latter is an issue I notice both when working with large photographs and gaming
<ErichEickmeyer> pmd11: That's no longer true as of 5.12. They did a lot of cleanup this past cycle.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: as an Ardour developer it seem any workaround has to be on the application side and the workarounds cause other troubles.
<eylul> pmd11 how is mate with video work, or other resource demanding work?
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: About the same amount of resources as Xfce.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Understood. I just never had a problem when I used Plasma 5.11 or 5.12 when using Ardour.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, the best thing like I said is to try them all. I don't expect that to change anyone's fav, but notes on how the DE interferes with or aids in different workflows would be good
<eylul> *nods*
<pmd11> mate looks very good to me. 
<eylul> we also have people who do work with different mediums
<ErichEickmeyer> This is why I think we should give the option. Since we're not based on a DE like other flavors, we have that kind of flexibility.
<OvenWerks> Also notes on how simple changes in setting can fix that
<ErichEickmeyer> So, what should we say? Change in DE being considered for 18.10 or DE Choice being considered for 18.10?
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, that's not a committment to proceed.
<eylul> I assume it would be more like 18.10 discussion period
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: that would mean creating a ubuntustudio-<flavour> package for each de I think.
<eylul> but DE issue being finalized in later stages? unless we get more development help?
<OvenWerks> I think we are looking at both being able to choose as well as what default
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes, that's correct, and as soon as I get packagning figured out, a project I'm willing to undertake.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, sounds good. I think we can wrangle-in the help as, believe it or not, big changes or features get attention, and therefore get interest/attract help.
<OvenWerks> In some ways it would be really nice if Studio's default was the same a vanilla's
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, but then it becomes a branding issue.
<OvenWerks> #ubuntu has way more people to help users with DE stuff
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: As do the DE-based flavors.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: we would still choose our own theme/backdrop
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Glad we're on the same page. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Yeah, I think the DE issue should be finalized as we get closer to the beginning of the 18.10 release cycle, since that would give time to attract help.
<OvenWerks> I think KDE is the only flavour that our menu "jsut works" with too
<eylul> haha that IS true
<ErichEickmeyer> So, I know it's a little resource hungery, but would we want to consider Gnome Shell as well?
<eylul> *makes a face*
<OvenWerks> All of them need to be looked at
<eylul> honestly if we changed the default I'd much rather see mate than gnome shell
<OvenWerks> It looks like we will be loosing 32 bit in the long run.
<eylul> but 
<eylul> yeah we should look at all options
<OvenWerks> If we are offering DE choice we pretty much have to.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's true.
<eylul> one thing I would like to know is 
<ErichEickmeyer> So, here's what I've got so far: "-controls to be updated to include new features for 18.10", "Looking into updating and/or adding wallpapers for 18.04", and "Change in default DE and/or adding option of DE being considered for 18.10"
<eylul> if we could get the welcome/software center of mate
<eylul> or a variation of it into being a feature for ubuntustudio and how much work that would take
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: I belive that would be relatively easy, especially considering having our metapackages as installation options there would be a huge boon.
<OvenWerks> Does the sofware center of mate show what software will be removed to install new software?
<ErichEickmeyer> Easy and worthwhile, I should say
<eylul> it is a very nice tool for beginners the way it curates the software, and could be a fantastic way to introduce people to the software available for art and highlight that. (set will start laughing at me about now) :D
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Martin has done a very comprehensive job with the Welcome center on MATE.
<OvenWerks> does it also passthrough selections that the install scritp makes?
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes. 
<OvenWerks> for example jackd install asks if the user want realtime permitions.
<ErichEickmeyer> For instance, you can even install Google Chrome with one click from that welcome app.
<OvenWerks> If so that would be the my software GUI of choice
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: That can be included as an option in the boutique. Wouldn't be hard to implement, afaik.
<ErichEickmeyer> Of course, I'm no programmer, but I know a guy. :)
<OvenWerks> Right now, I still install synaptic and use apt rather a lot
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Absolutely, and that option would still be there for more "advanced" users such as yourself.
<OvenWerks> The problem with install apps has been that the GUI runs as user and the install as system
<eylul> boutique is not a replacement for apt and synaptic. it doesn't have all the software, but it is more like a curated subset of stuff that is well maintained 
<ErichEickmeyer> ^That, yes.
<eylul> in terms of install scripts and explanations of what it does. some is from 3rd party repos, some from ubuntu repos which makes stuff that is essential for most users
<eylul> but hard to do (e.g. install flash) easy
<ErichEickmeyer> It even has Google Chrome as an install option, removing the chrome.google.com website from the equation.
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, it would be an ideal way to get people up-and-running on a fresh install without too much hassle.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> It would be ideal to add applications opted out of at iso install time as well applications related to Studio but not included.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, to what I wrote above, added "Adaptation of Ubuntu MATE welcome app for Ubuntu Studio being considered for 18.10"
<OvenWerks> +1
<ErichEickmeyer> So, in essence, it could replace the UbuntuStudio Metapackage Installer app.
<eylul> Ovenwerks: a very good software center that is curated, can also mean we can stop this cycle of add all software as default, we put ourselves in XD
<eylul> +1 to the item
<ErichEickmeyer> It would allow people to customize Ubuntu Studio to their particular use case.
<OvenWerks> The ubuntustudio-installer is old and well ready to retire... I wrote it I should know...
<eylul> wow
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: LOL
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, probably time. XD
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, definitely something we should work on for 18.10
<OvenWerks> It tryied to be a script that ran on stuff that every flavour had.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: It was very effective, in my opinion. I enjoyed the use I got out of it.
<OvenWerks> It uses zenity
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Could you get a list of new features being added to -controls?
<ErichEickmeyer> I can't remember off the top of my head.
<OvenWerks> The current -controls fixes rt permisions and makes sure the user is in the audio group... thats it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<ErichEickmeyer> Hotplugged USB interfaces specifically, correct?
<OvenWerks> the new one adds: set cpu governor, turn on/off Intel Boost, choose audio device, run jack from session start (or not) hotplugging USB mics selecting a non-standard set of outputs for pulse-jack bridging
<OvenWerks> Using more than one audio device even if internal, bridging ALSA midi to jack midi
<ErichEickmeyer> Wow. That's a lot! You've been busy!
<OvenWerks> a "Safely Remove USB Audio Device button
<captain-tux_> Yes, all very important for audio work, nice.
<ErichEickmeyer> This is brilliant.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, do you think that covers everything until next meeting?
<OvenWerks> The idea was to include tabs for video use or graphics setups as well
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<OvenWerks> Yup, everyone who can should dl todays ISO and test the install fix.
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. I'll get that last one out on Twitter.
<eylul> there is one thing left to cover
<captain-tux_> I actually have another point on my list.
<eylul> captain-tux_: you first
<captain-tux_> Okay, I've had a look at the website and wiki this week and I think it could use some improvements (content) for 18.04. Is there someone in charge of that currently? The team page seems to be outdated.
<eylul> oh goodness
<eylul> ok so the website
<eylul> one sec
<OvenWerks> At least that does not have a deadline...
<ErichEickmeyer> I have access to edit the website if anyone else has access to the Wiki.
<OvenWerks> but at least a DL link would be good when release happens
<eylul> https://ubuntustudio.azbulutlu.org/
<eylul> we have been working a new version
<eylul> of the website
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: That's absolutely gorgeous. Is there any way to get that implemented once 18.04 releases? I assume that's a retheme.
<eylul> things kind of fell apart due to a communication issue with the ubuntu information services side
<eylul> yeah we were trying to get the theme up
<eylul> the ticket fell through the cracks (partly due to us partly due to well.. lack of answer)
<eylul> the main issue is I am not sure *I* am allowed to put a new ticket in about this
<eylul> or anyone except set (sakrecoer)
<eylul> because officially he is still the lead
<eylul> and we never officiated the council
<eylul> :D
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Probably something worth putting in the ML so he can see it and respond in his own time.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> but yeah this has been in the works for... well
<eylul> basically since I joined... 2 years ago? XD
<eylul> *is a bit frustrated about this*
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, let's get it pushed. This needs to be a thing.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> I was just thinking the existing site could use a refresh, and this would be absolutely perfect.
<eylul> I think the images there will change slightly
<OvenWerks> that would certianly give a look of life around here
<ErichEickmeyer> hehe, referring to earlier parts of the conversation, just noticed that Wimpress is in the room. XD
<eylul> as were having issue getting license from the person making them, but we have other ones
<eylul> ... somewhere
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Sounds like we're cleaning up some of the mess caused by months of neglect. This is good.
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, my time is getting limited. captain-tux_, thanks for pointing out the website and wiki. eylul, did you have one more thing?
<eylul> oh I was going to say. we need to figure out WHEN is the next meeting :)
<eylul> before we wrap up
<ErichEickmeyer> Same time next week?
<OvenWerks> eylul: is this still valid: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website
<eylul> I.. don't think so?
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was just added to that team by sakrecoer, so yes.
<eylul> or maybe hang on..
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh wait... that's the code. nm.
<OvenWerks> I will try to be available next week. Family comes first of course.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Same.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, same time next week?
<eylul> yeah this is the one
<captain-tux_> Time works for me, but I could also be here earlier, if you like.
<eylul> assets part is where some of the image files are
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. I'll get the items discussed today on the ML and the website, and tweet the need for new Daily ISO testers.
<ErichEickmeyer> Maybe even a FB post.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anything else?
<eylul> not from me. will be here next week at least
<OvenWerks> Glad to see some chatter here
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Shall we officially adjourn this meeting?
<OvenWerks> yup
<captain-tux_> Yes
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, cool. Meeting adjourned. I'll be hanging out here, but I've got to head to work in about an hour. I'll try to get the notes posted and other PR stuff taken care of. Great meeting everyone!
<captain-tux_> Yes, thanks everyone!
<eylul> same here. thanks captain-tux_ for organizing the meeting, and nice to see things active again :)
<captain-tux_> :)
<captain-tux_> OvenWerks, can you eli5 how to test controls, if needed or would that be more work than finishing the development? :P
<captain-tux_> I've got some USB interfaces/amps and microphones laying around here for multiple inputs/outputs, etc.
<OvenWerks> captain-tux_: install log out and back in play.
<OvenWerks> Use qjackctl's connections screen to look at things
<OvenWerks> Don't expect more than one USB device to work at the same time just now.
<OvenWerks> (unless one of them is plugged in before login and stays there til logout
<metalbiker> i think i missed the meeting, didn't i? sigh
<metalbiker> i've got a hardware question and i want to make sure this is the correct channel to be in for that. 
<OvenWerks> it ended about 30min ago.
<OvenWerks> never know till it gets asked...
<metalbiker> aww man! well, i was busy around that time anyway but maybe next time i will. 
<OvenWerks> next week.
<metalbiker> the hardware i want to use is an m-audio delta 1010lt PCI card with breakout cables to connect my guitar/amp/microphone to the OS. is there a current list of supported hardware that i can view? if not, i think that's a very good thing to construct.
<OvenWerks> That card will work
<OvenWerks> I have a delta66
<metalbiker> cool!! awesome!
<OvenWerks> they all use the ice1712 chip
<metalbiker> oh awesome! i remember that one as well but i like the 1010 since it's got xlr connectors for microphones.
<OvenWerks> to set it up use mudita24
<metalbiker> what's mudita24?
<OvenWerks> That a control application specific to that chip
<OvenWerks> in particular the analog volume tab needs to have all your levels set to -6 or so for the outputs and 0 or so for the ADCs
<metalbiker> oh ok. another question about this. once i get ubuntu studio installed and get that card installed in my tower, will the OS automatically download and install the needed drivers?
<OvenWerks> (otherwise you will see the card but have no sound
<OvenWerks> The drivers are included
<metalbiker> ok, cool. and have all of the analog levels at -6 and zero for the ADCs. got it.
<metalbiker> is it recommended to have a high end graphics card for the system or just something decent? i'm not going to be gaming on it, just music work.
<OvenWerks> The internal Intel card is probaly the best
<OvenWerks> the intel drivers are open and so up to date
<metalbiker> ok. i do believe that's what it's got. i've got the dell precision t1600 workstation and i do believe the specs say it's got intel integrated graphics.
<OvenWerks> not great for gaming, but known not to get in the way of Audio stuff
<metalbiker> ok, sounds good. no worries about gaming. i'll build another rig for it or just get a console for that. lol 
<OvenWerks> same here
<metalbiker> and i don't want anything to get in the way
<metalbiker> man, you've been a big help with this. and what about audio to speakers? will the delta 1010 handle that as well? i think it's got RCA outputs or something. i don't have the specs in front of me at the moment.
<metalbiker> i want to use a really good set of speakers for playback for mixing/etc.
<OvenWerks> you need an amp to go to speakers
<OvenWerks> unless they have amplifiers in them
<OvenWerks> The RCA out are fine so long as the wire runs are short, less than 30 or 40 feet
<metalbiker> ok, cool. i'll have to check the speakers i'm wanting to see if there's an amp or not. 
<OvenWerks> My general advice is to spend as much as you can on speakers (listen to them sometimes cheaper sounds better) and then buy a $30 stereo amp from the used stuff store (value village or salvation Army)
<metalbiker> and the distance won't be a problem. i'll have them on nearby.
<OvenWerks> eylul: installing the latest iso, the application chooser now shows up. Checking to see if the publishing apps ar missing after install.
<metalbiker> yeah, i planned on spending whatever it costs to get good sounding speakers. you mean the amps that go in auto audio speakers>
<OvenWerks> no I mean living room stereo amps (sme times call receivers)
<OvenWerks> The one upstairs is a Fisher and the one here is a Technics. Both were $30
<OvenWerks> I can't afford speakers that will show the difference between these and expensive amplifier.
<OvenWerks> If I was spending $3k plus per speaker, I might think differently
<OvenWerks> eylul: install just removed the publishing stuff (that I unchecked) so we can call that bug fixed... I will mark it so.
<metalbiker> ohhhh....ok!! lol should've known
<OvenWerks> eylul: not sure why I am telling you this krytarik made the change...
<OvenWerks> krytarik: chaneg to seeds has been tested and works ok. Did install without publishing successfully.
<krytarik> Ok, cool - thanks.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: status on the bug changed to Fix Released
<krytarik> Great, thanks.
<krytarik> And I've still got LP #1703116 in my inbox, but we've got no uploader still either, soo..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1703116 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Include Onboard overrides" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1703116
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-08
<eylul> ovenwerks: :D
<eylul> sorry I wasn't here just seeing all this
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-01
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't know if you follow the LAU mailing list or not... https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-user/2019-April/111870.html
<OvenWerks> There are three emails in there. Mine and two answers. The answer at the top is obviously using the alsa drivers and the one at the bottom is not able to.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if that is because he did not remove the alsa fw drivers before trying the old ones.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That would be my guess, which is only a guess.
<OvenWerks> He is in the US, maybe we could borrow his "boat anchor" for a bit.
<OvenWerks> focusrite does not return anything in a search for firewire, no legacy pages or anything at all.
<OvenWerks> There are support pages hanging around though.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Maybe we shouldn't sweat it? I know there have been a lot of questions around FW devices, but it's hard to tell.
<Eickmeyer> Also, FYI, I bumped some version numbers and reduced compat & debhelper versions, autobuilds work again.
 * Eickmeyer should really never have bumped the debhelper versions to begin with if we plan on keeping backward compatibility with 18.04
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, I didn't know that at the time.
<Eickmeyer> I've learned so much about packaging in just the past month.
<OvenWerks> learning is good
 * Eickmeyer is working with cyphermox on updating the desktop screenshot in Ubiquity
 * Eickmeyer supposes he should work on a matrix bridge
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's the future of chat.
<Eickmeyer> Actually, looks like it's already bridged.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-02
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Cadence does not seem to do firewire checking... basically if jack doesn't start, Cadence directs the user to look in the jack log file.
<OvenWerks> Cadence does the set capture and then set playback kind of thing. I expect controls _never_ to do such a thing :)
<OvenWerks> So I will add firewire as a backend (maybe with "Try alsa first" or something)
<OvenWerks> The stuff I need to do for the FW backend is mostly the same as what I need to do for any none alsa backend
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think Cadence did much with firewire, but figured you'd find something if it existed, which, as you discovered, it does not.
<Eickmeyer> But, yeah, setting capture and playback is kinda.. odd.
<OvenWerks> setting capture/playback is from internal/older devices that are like hw:0,0 is playback and hw:0,1 is record, btoh with the same clock
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
<OvenWerks> it does not apply to multi channel cards for the most part.
<OvenWerks> my opinion is that if they can be both opened at the same time, our normal bridging policy still works.
<OvenWerks> For FW I will assume that there is only one device and so the device will be fixed to hw:0 only
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that makes sense.
<Eickmeyer> That's a good assumption. So, from what I'm understanding, FW has to be bound in the same way as internal hardware?
<OvenWerks> Cadence is trying to cover everything including macos and windows as well as every linux out there. The elif lines are long ...
<Eickmeyer> Sheesh
<Eickmeyer> But, yeah, he does build it for Windows and MacOS.
<Eickmeyer> Though, not Cadence itself, just the other tools.
<OvenWerks> the FW driver has similar hardware nameing to alsa
<Eickmeyer> RE: FW: If that's the case, if they hotplug a FW device, it won't show up in -controls if it's already running. Might need a "refresh hardware" button.
<OvenWerks> This makes sense because the fw kernel drivers were originally written for a FW-jack use
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we already do that for alsa :)
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay, then we should be good.
<OvenWerks> but in this case, using fw driver relies on the user having set thing up the right way already.
<OvenWerks>  so we accept fw as a driver, set device to hw:0 and go
<OvenWerks> the user will not be able to change the device or set up a hotplug USB master device as both of those boxes will be disabled
<OvenWerks> hot pluggin USB device as non-master is still ok and adding alsa devices is also ok.
<Eickmeyer> So, we're talking FW must be master, basically.
<OvenWerks> yes, there is no bridge from fw to jack.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, as long as the user knows that, we're good.
<OvenWerks> I am looking at the module blacklisting to see if we can just read that and get a sense what the user's setup is.
 * OvenWerks wonders if looking to see if snd-firewire-lib is loaded would cover all alsa fw modules.
<Eickmeyer> Decent theory.
<OvenWerks> or if checking for raw1394 would be proof the FW drivers are in place. /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist-firewire.conf has this in it.
 * OvenWerks wishes he had a FW device to try it out on.
<OvenWerks> looking at: https://www.alsa-project.org/wiki/ALSA_firewire_stack
<Eickmeyer> So, does that mean it's already in the stack?
<OvenWerks> no that means it is prevented from loading.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, duh.
<OvenWerks> the direct fw drivers for jack have to be prevented from loading if alsa is to work... and the alsa modules have to be prevented from loading if the raw fw for jack is to be used.
<Eickmeyer> So, the raw1394 is blacklisted. Meaning, that the kernel doesn't have direct access to fw devices?
<Eickmeyer> You just answered my question.
<Eickmeyer> Is there a way to make a switch or checkbox in -controls to facilitate that module?
 * Eickmeyer is spitballing
<OvenWerks> That is what I am thinking... but I am not willing to try that unless I A) have a device to play with or B) we have someone I can talk to and try things with who has one.
 * OvenWerks doesn't really care which
<OvenWerks> In some ways I would prefer a FW unit that is supported both ways over one that requires the old way, but I think it is ok to assume that leaving thing stock is going to work for whatever works with alsa.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would tend to keep two copies of blacklist-firewire.conf in /usr/share/ubuntustudio or /usr/share/ubuntustudio-controls that can be linked to depending on use.
<OvenWerks> (or copied either way)
<OvenWerks> This is a change that should be done on the system tab because it is a system change that needs root priv. and would have to be done by the same back end as rt setup and would require a reboot to work anyway.
 * OvenWerks notes that some of this stuff may be done from initrd.img and so require copying rather than ln -s
<OvenWerks> So we may need to run update-grub as well.
<Eickmeyer> That's crazy territory.
<OvenWerks> no not update grub, but the one that rewrite initrd
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's what I meant.
<Eickmeyer> Oh.
<Eickmeyer> Um...
<Eickmeyer> update-initramfs
<OvenWerks> It would probably be better for us to do that than try to write a document.
<Eickmeyer> If we can incorporate something into -controls rather than write a document, I'm all for it. The less work the user has to do the better. "Teach a man to fish" as they say.
<Eickmeyer> The command is actually "update-initramfs -u" otherwise it will throw an error.
<OvenWerks> details...
<Eickmeyer> hehehe
<OvenWerks> The big detail is access to a box.
<Eickmeyer> You mentioned something about a guy with a boat anchor?
<OvenWerks> I think if I were to create a script (in bash) to switch to the old drivers and recreate the initramfs with the ability to undo the same... I may be able to send it that guy to test.
<OvenWerks> I suspect he would be happier getting his box to work over giving to someone else who makes it work for themselves
<Eickmeyer> Probably.
<OvenWerks> The USB replacement is $500ish and I think the one he has cost closer to $1000
<Eickmeyer> Considering the price of equivalent tech gets cheaper with time...
<OvenWerks> I acn't aford to buy it, Shipping I could probably handle though. I would have to acquire a pcie (or pci) card with FW ports which start at $21
<Eickmeyer> Not hard to find the pci cards. I had one I wasn't using a few years ago.
<OvenWerks> I thought my laptop had a port (10 year old Dell) but I checked and couldn't find it
<OvenWerks> (its slow anyway)
<Eickmeyer> I had an old Toshiba laptop that had a PCMCIA slot for which I bought a FW card.
<Eickmeyer> That was about 13-14 years ago.
<OvenWerks> I would prefer pcie as the next computer I buy may not have pci slots. It was not easy to find a MB with 3 PCI slots a few years ago when I got this one.
<Eickmeyer> I'm sure Amazon has something for cheap.
<OvenWerks> If I had the FW box and a PCIe card it would mean I wuld still have a working audio inteface if I can't find a slot for my delt66
<OvenWerks> Canadian dollars are only 74.9% of US
<OvenWerks> so $21 is like $15
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I just found something for $19US.
<Eickmeyer> Now one for 17 US.
<Eickmeyer> So, relatively inexpensive, probably because the peripheral support just isn't what it used to be.
<OvenWerks> I use two PCI cards right now, The Delt66 and an AudioPCI for MIDI
<OvenWerks> I was able to avoid the pci slot that shares irq with 5 other bits
<OvenWerks> I was also able to find a MB with midi din for both keyboard and mouse :)
<Eickmeyer> I just have my one USB audio interface and one USB MIDI controller.
<Eickmeyer> I do have a pair of studio monitor speakers on the way. Going to use those to demo Ubuntu Studio at Linux Fest Northwest later this month.
<OvenWerks> cool.
<OvenWerks> it looks like raw1394 is the module to look for, if it has not been loaded at boot time, I can assume there is not FW device.
<Eickmeyer> So unblacklist and modprobe?
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I sent an email to Rick (I think)
<OvenWerks> unload whatever alsa has loaded first
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it can be done realtime or needs a reboot.
<Eickmeyer> If modprobe is involved, no reboot needed.
<OvenWerks> ya, in this case it is knowing which all modules to unload first
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-03
<sakrecoer> just picked up on rosco2 getting upload rights !:) \o/ very happy for everyone involved!!
<Eickmeyer> sakrecoer: Yeah, quite the journey. I've been encouraged to apply next, but I hope to get another package or two under my belt before then.
<Eickmeyer> Currently working on lsp-plugins
<OvenWerks> rt kernel is the silver bullet :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think we need to create a document on firewire devices. The responce I got back from Rick is "I didn't know that alsa had any firewire support at all"
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: this doc needs a change for sure: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FireWire/DigitalAudio
<OvenWerks> The ubuntu wiki login sucks... it says login, I do that then it dumps me to some generic page and lets me figure my own way back to the page I logged in to edit :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Grr.... Getting used to Matrix.
<OvenWerks> Do you remember which cycle ubuntu started using the alsa mods?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, the wiki login does indeed suck. I typically just look at my browser history.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I do not remember.
<OvenWerks> The alsa modules date from kernel v2.6.39 to v4.4
<OvenWerks> So anything in 4.4 should be alsa
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FireWire/DigitalAudio#preview
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: The references to qjackctl need to go. :/
 * Eickmeyer[m] bbl, gotta drive
<OvenWerks> ok, when you have time I also changed: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FireWire
<OvenWerks> My edits may not be the best... but people need to know "try ALSA first!"
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Looks good!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-04
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioInstaller
<OvenWerks> Next for installer... allow to install only some packages from a meta :)
<Eickmeyer> That will require a folder hierarchy.
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks>  also reading the meta depends
<Eickmeyer> 19.10 goals?
<OvenWerks> IDK
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<Eickmeyer> If it has to be a 20.04 thing, I'm happy with that.
<OvenWerks> With back ports it is not so bad, maybe add an upgrade from backport button first.
<Eickmeyer> Well, adding the backports PPA should technically run a "sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade", shouldn't it?
<Eickmeyer> Unless we omitted that.
<OvenWerks> is that what the user would expect?
<OvenWerks> I don't think it does the upgrade, just update
<Eickmeyer> Well, if we run the update, eventually update-manager is going to catch it.
<Eickmeyer> er, upgrade.
<Eickmeyer> So, I guess it doesn't matter.
<OvenWerks> So it is effectively done either way.
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> Then we should just add it.
<OvenWerks> or at least enable the install button
<Eickmeyer> You mean upgrade? There's already an install button.
<OvenWerks> We should also refill the available packages to install
<Eickmeyer> I agree with that.
<OvenWerks> Yes but the install button is normally disabled until a package is selected
<Eickmeyer> By the way, I backported lmms and calf, if you didn't know already, to get rid of the calf-ladspa bug.
<Eickmeyer> I see.
<Eickmeyer> That's expected behavior.
<Eickmeyer> So, what's the behavior you're meaning now?
 * Eickmeyer needs clarification
<OvenWerks> So even add an entry to the package list that says upgrade to backports
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Does that need to be a metapackage or something that just gets hard-coded?
<OvenWerks> Hard coded
<Eickmeyer> Okay. 
<Eickmeyer> Do we want to add this to 19.04 (as in, an oversight, oops, found a bug) or to 19.10?
<OvenWerks> next cycle.
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<OvenWerks> backports will add it in anyway :)
<Eickmeyer> True.
<Eickmeyer> But only if a build is manually triggered (which, with the way I've set that up, requires a version bump in the changelog).
<OvenWerks> Leaving it for now also looks better for you getting UL rights.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's true. Wouldn't want to abuse my privilege. :)
<OvenWerks> frivolous uploads are not good
<Eickmeyer> At this point, only if they're bug fixes is it okay.
<OvenWerks> this is not a bug, just a change in thinking. That makes it a feature
<Eickmeyer> I already did two post-beta uploads which were approved (-look for the wallpaper I made and -icon-theme for a base on the dark variant of papirus for those that like that).
<OvenWerks> wallpaper was a bug in a reasonable sense. Icons could go with that too.
<Eickmeyer> Also, I got the screenshot of the desktop in the Ubiquity slideshow updated.
<Eickmeyer> Other screenshots could use some TLC, but that was the big one.
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> So we are about a year behind :P
<OvenWerks> we have what should have been an LTS (I think)
<Eickmeyer> I believe you are correct.
<OvenWerks> I guess it is a good first step to ward 2004
<OvenWerks> 20.04
<Eickmeyer> Yes. More polish on what we have and adding lsp-plugins are definite goals from here forward.
 * OvenWerks kind of hopes Ardour 6.0 gets out by then
<Eickmeyer> Oh, wouldn't that be lovely.
<Eickmeyer> I kindof wouldn't mind making it so that people don't think they have to add the kxstudio repos.
<Eickmeyer> We need to be complete out-of-the-box.
<OvenWerks> You have made a good start by adding Carla
<Eickmeyer> I think we're getting there.
<OvenWerks>  I think the more of kx we can add OOTB the better
<Eickmeyer> I agree.
<OvenWerks> That way we can keep KX from causing trouble
<Eickmeyer> That's one reason I'm looking at the lsp-plugins, and am eying distroho as well.
<OvenWerks> By not including the parts that do cause trouble
<Eickmeyer> i.e. Cadence.
<OvenWerks> Falktx has had in mind to add all of his own SW to the debian/ubuntu repos
<OvenWerks> for some time
<OvenWerks> For Cadence, I should probably take the time to make up a PR to make it less intrusive
<Eickmeyer> Well, he hasn't even touched Cadence for a few months since he's been working so hard on Carla.
<Eickmeyer> He has even moved some of Catia's features (such as buffer selection in the status bar) to Carla 2.1.
<Eickmeyer> Carla 2.1 is going to be real nice. The patchbay will have in-line controls.
<OvenWerks> Cadence covers windows and Macos too. It looks for what kind of Linux and does different things depending on what it finds... That is a lot fo work.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. That's something that others have been giving him PRs for Claudia about. It's set-up to detect Debian packages, but doesn't work well with RPM-based distros or others at all.
<Eickmeyer> He's pretty ecstatic about Carla being in Ubuntu.
<OvenWerks> His kxstudio iso was always based on ubuntu
<OvenWerks> I think if Studio was in good shape he would be happy to just use that... though he does like KDE
<Eickmeyer> Then Kubuntu + -installer. :)
<OvenWerks> Basically
<OvenWerks> There are a few things he does we could never do, like provide a downloaded copy of Ardour.
<OvenWerks> I think he has given up on LS though
<OvenWerks> LS will die by bad licence
<OvenWerks>  I am told that any of the devs for LS that can be found would be willing to change the licence, it is just that some can not be found at all
<OvenWerks> There is another project that will deal with the same files now (I don't know how far along it is) and if it gets very far at all, LS will basicly vanish
<Eickmeyer> I guess I'm not tracking. LS?
<OvenWerks> Linux sampler
<OvenWerks> What was previously keeping Carla out of debian
<Eickmeyer> Oh, yes. He indeed has, and it's no longer a dependency for most projects.
<OvenWerks> (till it was removed)
<Eickmeyer> Probably was the only reason I was able to get Carla in Ubuntu since he dropped LS.
<OvenWerks> yes, I think he also dropped some other builtin synths
<Eickmeyer> Fluidsynth isn't a dependency, iirc.
<OvenWerks> There are three FS plugins these days I think.
<OvenWerks> Calf is the oldest, but a-fluidsynth is now a thing and I think there is one other (aside from AVLdrums which is also FS inside)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-05
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: Talking more with Rick about firewire... He tried again with everything stock. This works... sort of.
<OvenWerks> Audacity can see the device and can use it.
<OvenWerks> Then he did the most obvious thing and started ffado-mixer to turn the phantom power on which actually worked but then phantom turned itself off and he got the dying off audio as it did. The device then reset itself :)   :P
<OvenWerks> I wish ffado-mixer would just not work at all when the firewire device is being used as an ALSA device.
<OvenWerks> So anyway, the documentation needs to include a warning not to try using ffado-mixer!
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's a pain.
<Eickmeyer> So, then that begs the question as to if ffado-mixer needs to be removed from the seed.
<OvenWerks> I have asked Rick to try again and see if alsamixer has all the controls needed to run the unit. (Phantom power etc.)
<OvenWerks> I hope to find out if alsa is complete enough
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Otherwise, it might be back to the drawing board?
<OvenWerks> However, if we set -controls up to enable ffado drivers we should also be able to disable the ffado-mixer menu item
<Eickmeyer> True.
<OvenWerks> or even make it run alsa-mixer in a terminal ;)
<Eickmeyer> Nah, that'd be hacky.
<Eickmeyer> There's also qasmixer, which is basically a gui for alsamixer.
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if it has a system default configure
<Eickmeyer> I'd look, but I'm getting ready to test the latest daily.
<OvenWerks> It defaults to Mixer device "default" which is pulse. I would like it to default to "hw:Card"
<Eickmeyer> Right. That's par for the course for alsamixer.
<OvenWerks> The man page gives no idea
<OvenWerks> There are no files installed that look like a config
<Eickmeyer> So, that means it's hard-coded. :/
<OvenWerks> Anyway, at this point, I want to see the final outcome from Rick's experiments
<OvenWerks> yes it is. The device can be set on the commandline
<Eickmeyer> If that's the case, then maybe modify the .desktop file?
<OvenWerks> But if we set it to hw:0 or card 0
<OvenWerks> that means the user always has to change it to hw:2 or whatever.
<Eickmeyer> Ah, yes. :/
<OvenWerks> Right now it opens at the device layout from last time
<Eickmeyer> Then a button that launches it from -controls set to whatever is master?
<OvenWerks> That would be possible yes.
<Eickmeyer> Seems like the best option we've got.
<OvenWerks> qasmixer --device=hw:M66 works here.
<Eickmeyer> Sweet. We have either a workaround or a solution.
<OvenWerks> qasmixer has a real problem deciding if a control is an input or output
<OvenWerks> All of my devices have at least some controls that show as both inputs and outputs and changing one changes the other.
<Eickmeyer> That's not ideal.
<OvenWerks> last update is end of 2016 so probably not quite dead.
<Eickmeyer> It's definitely approaching senile, though.
<OvenWerks> I would almost like to fork it...
<Eickmeyer> Ubuntu Studio Mixer!!!
<OvenWerks> It was upgraded to QT5 at least.
<OvenWerks> Actually I would be better off to start over I think. It would take less time as I would not have to A)learn QT or B) figure out how they did things.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
<OvenWerks> It could be written in python or tcl/tk or whatever.
<OvenWerks> But it does look like we need a good ALSA mixer
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. alsamixer itself isn't ideal. ncurses interfaces aren't exactly intuitive anymore.
<OvenWerks> It would be nice to do a jack router as well. Like patchage, but show unused alsa devices as well (in an off colour) that get auto connected to jack vai zita-ajbridge when connected on the GUI
<OvenWerks> (and become an "On colour ;)
 * OvenWerks has a longterm goal to show and end point on the network this way as well
<OvenWerks> s/and/any/
<Eickmeyer> That would be really cool.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like there used to be a gnome-alsamixer, but it's long dead.
<OvenWerks> most of the alsa mixer GUIs do not give _all_ the controls. That was what I liked about QASmixer
<OvenWerks> QASmixer aslo lays tings out nicer. Most gui alsa mixers go for a minimum look that fits well with a popup/down from systray with just the controls the user needs for desktop use. QASmixer thinks like an Application and tries to lay things out like a HW mixer.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Just tried "alsamixergui" and it's garbage.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I went through everything I could find before we put QASmixer in
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio-installer | OvenWerks: I did another thing
<ubottu> OvenWerks: I did another thing: Ubuntu Studio Installer is an app that can be used to add Ubuntu Studio's benefits to an existing Ubuntu (or official flavor) installation, or add additional packages. For more info, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioInstaller
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-06
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Do you think we could use a translator for -controls?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think glade uses a translatable flag by default, But how to add those translations?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I don't know, but we had someone volunteer to translate.
<Eickmeyer> I was trying to direct him to this channel and he never came.
<Eickmeyer> He seems to be fluent in several languages with Spanish being his native.
<Eickmeyer> Nice guy, hangs out in #ubuntu-offtopic.
<Eickmeyer> er, #ubuntustudio-offtopic
 * OvenWerks doesn't know how to add the muti-lingual infrastructure
<Eickmeyer> Ah. Well, I guess it's not priority.
<OvenWerks> I would also note it is not just glade because we change text in some cases in the script
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://www.mattlayman.com/blog/2015/i18n/
<OvenWerks> I would suggest we try installer first... oh, maybe not, thats not python.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I know the idea was to eventually convert installer to python, but that would obviously have to happen first.
<OvenWerks> I was looking at the example in the link above... it looks pretty complex.
<OvenWerks> Also, it doesn't say anything about dealing with a *glade file
<Eickmeyer> If I knew anything about Python I'd probably form an opinion. :/
<Eickmeyer> My knowledge is rather limited to C64 BASIC and bash scripts. :P
<OvenWerks> It seems we are supposed to have (already) /usr/bin/application /usr/lib/app-name/libs.py /usr/lib/app-name/locale/lang/*.po
<OvenWerks> though I have also seen them in /usr/share/app-name/locale
<OvenWerks> The problem is that from my limited understanding so far, the only way I could figure this out would be to not add any text in the glade file but add it after (which would double the work and size of our executable)
<OvenWerks> I am sure there is a better way :)
<OvenWerks> The outcome is that I am not ready to do translations at this point. It looks like translation would be about the same amount of work I have already done over again. I hope I am exagerating :P
<Eickmeyer> That's fine. I will pass the word. 
<OvenWerks> and then I fell asleep... maybe that is why I was grouchy
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-30
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> heh :)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ok, here goes nothing. If I get in trouble for doing the right thing, then I get in trouble for doing the right thing. "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." Mypaint is returning to Ubuntu Studio.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: where would we save feature requests for -controls?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: A: log window B: include adevices.sh
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Those wouild be bug reports.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Marked "wishlist".
<Eickmeyer> Of course Matrix is being flaky this morning.
<OvenWerks> and C: make default PCH (if it exists) rather than 0,0,0
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that could even be a bugfix if you can get that in before final freeze.
<OvenWerks> Nope...
<Eickmeyer> Wishful thinking. Hence, wishlist. :)
<Eickmeyer> I'm just surprised I managed to get Mypaint back in the seed and metas without getting keelhauled.
<OvenWerks> ubuntu-bug will not let me bug -controls
<Eickmeyer> Just throw it in here if it's a wishlist item: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-controls
<Eickmeyer> Really, we need to transition it to github for the unbranding.
<OvenWerks> Hmmm, but then it would have "Issues"  :P
<Eickmeyer> hehehe
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-03-31
<Kobbs> Hey how would I go about adding netpbm to the base install?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> FYI everyone, with the franticness leading up to beta freeze, and with the speed at which I've been moving, I need to take a day off. If something comes up and it's urgent, feel free to ping me (use @ in front of my name, IRC and Matrix users as that will ping me on Telegram).
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-01
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [@teward001 A little advice here. MyPaint has been missing from the Ubuntu Studio â¦], why was it removed?
<studiobot> <teward001> the reason for removal is critical here
<studiobot> <teward001> and sorry i'm not on telegram as much - WFH chaos
<studiobot> <teward001> or do you mean dropped from the seeds?
<studiobot> <teward001> because AFAICT there's a `mypaint` package in Focal (2.0.0-1) synced from Debian
<RikMills> I know that at the time the new libmypaint and mypaint2 was in experimental, and if it had been synced the current gimp at the time would ftbfs
<RikMills> must have changed now
<studiobot> <teward001> RikMills: so, libmypaint is a separate package now
<studiobot> <teward001> but i'm not sure 100% what package we're actually referring to in the source package level
<studiobot> <teward001> `libmypaint` and `mypaint` are separate packages at the source level so clarification on *which* source package we're looking at would be useful
<studiobot> <teward001> BUT
<studiobot> <teward001> we're also in Final Beta Freeze, and no new seed changes are currently being accepted AIUI
<studiobot> <teward001> soooooooooooo
<studiobot> <teward001> gotta be careful here
<RikMills> libmypaint has been seperate since at least bionic
<studiobot> <teward001> right
<studiobot> <teward001> the `mypaint` source package has 2.0.0-1 which was synced from Debian
<RikMills> if mypaint was dropped for a good reason in focal, but can now come back. I don't think that will be argued with
<studiobot> <teward001> but i didn't check deps, etc.  i don't think libmypaint has been updated to any higher though
<studiobot> <teward001> right but i need more details because theoretically it was never dropped from Ubuntu
<studiobot> <teward001> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mypaint
<studiobot> <teward001> it was just stuck at 1.2.0 forever until Focal
<RikMills> libmypaint is now 1.5
<RikMills> has to be, otherwise mypaint 2 would not have built
<RikMills> s/has/had
<studiobot> <teward001> yep 1.5.1
<studiobot> <teward001> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libmypaint
<RikMills> and I meant dropped from the seed. assuming that is what you also meant
<studiobot> <teward001> well 'dropped' means three things to me as a coredev
<studiobot> <teward001> (1) Dropped from Main to Universe
<studiobot> <teward001> (2) Dropped from Seed
<studiobot> <teward001> (3) Dropped from ubuntu repos
<studiobot> <teward001> so the clarification there was needed
<studiobot> <teward001> in this case, dropped from seed is what it matches
<studiobot> <teward001> so it'd need added back into the seed
<studiobot> <teward001> that would require i think release team coordination because of the state we're in that they're already spinning RC ISOs
<RikMills> ooh. jbicha synced these during FeatureFreeze
<RikMills> tutut
<studiobot> <teward001> to be fair I've synced a few packages during FF too :P
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> libmypain i being used both by gimp and mypaint. mypaint uses different version which caused conflict team decided gimp being present was higher priority but getting it back was something that was important to us since the drop
<studiobot> <teward001> @azbulutlu then I task you to confirm that `mypaint` works as currently is
<studiobot> <teward001> with the higher libs, etc.
<studiobot> <teward001> and verify GIMP works too
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> libmypaint. I think erich is taking a day off so might be slow in answering so wanted to pop-in with the context
<studiobot> <teward001> if it does, then you should be easy to get testing done without the Seeding
<studiobot> <teward001> ... where the heckle is my coffee...
<RikMills> right. signing out of the discussion. I only commented as I was asked about syncing the new libmypaint/mypaint back when it would have broken things
<studiobot> <teward001> cool
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> tagging eickmeyer for.when he gets back
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> @teward001 I'll get to it tomorrow latest if someone else doesn't beat me to it
<studiobot> <teward001> cool
<studiobot> <teward001> *goes to do his regular work duties*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 The clarification: it was removed from the seed. I added it again before feature freeze with bug 1803924 being fixed as the reason it was removed/re-added. Mypaint and Gimp being on the seed simultaneously was giving FTB for the ISO.
<ubottu> bug 1803924 in MyPaint "Gimp conflict with MyPaint" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803924
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> However, that issue no longer exists. I added it back to the ISO without a FFe because nobody was answering me. It worked, no issues.
<RikMills> \o/
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nobody got angry either.
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> @Eickmeyer oh btw I am alive
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nice to see you, @tsimonq2
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> Heya
<studiobot> * tsimonq2 finds @teward001 and shoots him with a billion arrows at once
<studiobot> * Eickmeyer gets coffee
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [However, that issue no longer exists. I added it back to the ISO without a FFe b â¦], cool
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [Nice to see you, @tsimonq2], well that's probably because you're stuck at home lol
<studiobot> <teward001> @tsimonq2 [@Eickmeyer oh btw I am alive], that's ONLY because you're stuck at home lol
<studiobot> <tsimonq2> @teward001 [that's ONLY because you're stuck at home lol], No you
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> But yeah, I bypassed the FFe process when adding MyPaint back. Inother words, I JFDI.
<studiobot> <teward001> @tsimonq2 [No you], i've been stuck at home since mid March the heck have you been doing :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I've been stuck at home since mid March too.
<studiobot> <teward001> at least i can have my required coffee supplies shipped to me in bulk heh
<studiobot> <teward001> *has a bulk order of 60 brewer pods for his Keurig of a specific type of coffee arriving later today*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Nice.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-02
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Blog Post: Ready. Release Notes: Ready.
<Eickmeyer> If anybody would like to give the release notes a once-over: If anybody would like to give the release notes a once
<Eickmeyer> -_-
<Eickmeyer> Let's try that again.
<Eickmeyer> If anybody would like to give the release notes a once-over: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<Eickmeyer> teward: Any chance I can get a sync of obs-studio from Debian?
<teward> `requestsync`
<teward> use that to make the bug :P
<teward> gotta go through sync requests first :)
<teward> is obs-studio seeded anywhere?
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha. It's seeded in Studio.
<Eickmeyer> Somehow Debian got the latest release first. -_-
<Eickmeyer> As flavor lead I can do my part to approve it.
<Eickmeyer> Can happen post-Beta though.
<Eickmeyer> teward: bug 1870248
<ubottu> bug 1870248 in obs-studio (Ubuntu) "Sync obs-studio 25.0.3+dfsg1-2 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1870248
<Eickmeyer> Subscribed you. :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> @eickmeyer two things. 1) do you want to add mypaint to "main packages" version list? not a trivial question just want to make sure that it is a decision and not forgotten. :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> does the installer issue mean people who want to use the installer to for example install KDE then Ubuntu Studio on top should not do that?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me know
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu 1) Not a bad idea, and 2) That's the Ubiquity installer, not ubuntustudio-installer.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ah ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it might be worth clarifying that installs on top of another flavor are not affected by this. if I am confused while skimming other people might be too :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> other than that this looks good. Ill give a read tomorrow when it is not 4am local time through
<OvenWerks> US-installer kind of side steps the problem by only installing whole metas, not partial
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I just threw a parenthetical in there to clarify that.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: For some reason, even unselecting a whole meta is causing the issue in Ubiquity.
<Eickmeyer> As far as I know, the Foundations team is still working on it.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh fun...
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I assume theyll fix that before releasing through
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that is not a minor bug
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> They better or I'm going to have someone beat them with a very pointy and heavy club.
<OvenWerks> kind of like the partition size change when the user asks for no change....
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> usually releases dont go with that bad bugs. they get delayed
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and ovenwerks it is mostly a case of being non-technical user friendly. (also hi. and I hope all is well)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It was discovered in 19.10 after release. This kind of bug going into an LTS would be unforgivable.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oww
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'm going to start bugging them about it daily until final starting tomorrow.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> well it would be not ok either way. I assume the only reason it went through is because nobody noticed in time. release definitely got delayed in past for buga like that
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> bugs.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I wouldnt worry too much tbh
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, the problem was discovered in November. There was a related bug that was fixed, so it might be that, but I have yet to test.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ah ok
<teward> i'll do the sync Eickmeyer but if they bitch/moan about it i'm saying you asked me to.
<teward> and i'll blame you :P
<Eickmeyer> teward: Ok, that's fine. It's a seeded package in the flavor I lead so... 
<Eickmeyer> Besides, they still need to work on a major bug (1851346), of course that's Foundations, but there's a lot of overlap.
<Eickmeyer> teward: If you didn't, they'd never get around to it. They never even looked at the same request I made last cycle for the same package.
<teward> see vorlon's notice in -release
<teward> like right now
<Eickmeyer> I'm there.
<Eickmeyer> teward: That reminds me, obs-studio should probably be in the packageset. :P
 * Eickmeyer[m] uploaded an image: image.png (25KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/VGvUpZbSRrIVUeoRXWGTlsEh >
<Eickmeyer[m]> I just had the most useless error ever: 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Shroedinger's Crash
<OvenWerks> @azbulutlu thank you we are fine. My wife is a healthcare worker (nurse) so we are being extra careful. So far... no one is sick
<teward> Eickmeyer: your sync was handled.  As for the packageset, email that to devel-permissions asking it to be added to the packageset
<Eickmeyer> teward: I would if I had the packageset. Doesn't make much sense for me to do that until I do.
<teward> you're package lead ;)
<teward> s/package/flavor/
<teward> but ok
<Eickmeyer> I agree, but it seems silly, but idk.
<teward> but it's not high on my list atm
<teward> i've got a dozen other things i'm *paid* to do to work on first :)
<Eickmeyer> Not high on my list either. I want this Ubiquity bug fixed first, but considering juliank considers it a low priortiy despite it breaking people's installations, I'm a little irked.
<Eickmeyer> It's been reported since November.
<RikMills> LP: #1870353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1870353 in mypaint (Ubuntu) "mypaint 2.0 fails to start - missing python module 'distutils.spawn'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1870353
<studiobot> <teward001> RikMills: I'll add a dep on it for python3-distutils which should fix that
<studiobot> <teward001> do me a favor and test that - `sudo apt install python3-distutils`
<studiobot> <teward001> if it works I'll push that fix shortly
<RikMills> it does fix it here
<RikMills> you already have that on your dvd for something, but any other flavour does not
<studiobot> <teward001> yep but this is a bugfix so
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll get this pushed in in literally a few minutes
<RikMills> thanks. I would have if you did not :P
<studiobot> <teward001> @RikMills actually feel free to upload
<studiobot> <teward001> my system's being borken
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: mypaint was removed since it could not be installed with gimp. Since that bug was fixed, the package was naturally re-added. I believe it's part of the packageset.
<Eickmeyer> to the seed.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: then fix and upload if YOU like
<RikMills> as long as someone does. LOL
<Eickmeyer> I don't have packageset. 
<RikMills> wut?
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer hasn't been granted packageset yet
<RikMills> ok
<studiobot> <teward001> becuase he hasn't filed his application yet :)
<studiobot> <teward001> hence why he pings you or me :)
<Eickmeyer> These things take time. :(
<studiobot> <teward001> (I don't need the packageset rights - coredev gives me upload heh)
<studiobot> <teward001> truth
<RikMills> I thought that was for things that had not been added yet. I know I used to have trouble getting the Kubuntu set updated
<RikMills> oh well, would do
 * RikMills thinks when he has the sets, he should do MOTU
<studiobot> <teward001> RikMills: Core Dev gives me upload rights to the entire repository in all pockets
<studiobot> <teward001> i do a bunch of drive-by fixes in the various pockets so Core Dev gives me that rights.  As well as NEW uploads :)
<studiobot> <teward001> but meh
<studiobot> <teward001> *yawns* time to reup my coffee supply
<studiobot> <teward001> *goes to make more*
<RikMills> why are you telling me that? I know
<studiobot> * teward001 yawns
<studiobot> <teward001> E:CAFFEINENOTAVAILABLE
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<RikMills> I meant <Eickmeyer> should do MOTU next ;)
<RikMills> I know you have core-dev. I lurked in your meeting :P
<studiobot> <teward001> ah :)
<RikMills> damn. source package will not build on this machine either
<studiobot> <teward001> you may have to install the build-deps
<studiobot> <teward001> hence my rebuilding my Focal env
<studiobot> <teward001> (which is in a container)
<RikMills> I need to do that, but I also have not yet :/
<RikMills> uploaded
<RikMills> that was a lot of messing about for a small fix!
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah tell me about it
<Eickmeyer> RikMills, @teward: Just got caught-up, apparentlly I need to be part of Bug Control, so I was applying for that. smh
<Eickmeyer> Apparently my inability to assign bug importance was what caused that Ubiquity bug to go ignored for so long.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-03
<Eickmeyer> FYI All, Beta is delayed: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2020-April/040957.html
<OvenWerks> ok. I have documentation for Ardour 6.0 to work on for a while... 
<Eickmeyer> We have a beta: https://ubuntustudio.org/2020/04/ubuntu-studio-20-04-lts-beta-focal-fossa-released/
<OvenWerks> will it be the same as the daily?
<Eickmeyer> Only if that daily is 20200402.
<OvenWerks> it is different than yesterday for sure
<Eickmeyer> Yesterday's had a zfs failure, this fixes that.
<Eickmeyer> I had some insomnia around 2am, so I checked it, approved it for beta, and went back to bed.
<OvenWerks> is zfs the standard fs or is it still ext4?
<Eickmeyer> zfs is experimental still, I believe.
<OvenWerks> because of my setup I have to choose the something else/manual option rather than the just do it auto option... so I don't know anymore
<OvenWerks> wow my mortgage payment is almost 100 less this month
<OvenWerks> interest rates have gone down
<Eickmeyer> Ha! It'd be a perfect time for us to buy if real estate offices were open and residential construction were even a thing right now.
<OvenWerks> I got two notices that my interesat rate changed this month... and what they actually charged was less than both
<Eickmeyer> Might mean they're anticipating lower.
<OvenWerks> it's prime plus. so if prime goes down so do I
<OvenWerks> I would imagine the bank of Canada sets prime based on gov input
<OvenWerks> The rest of the banks follow closely
<Eickmeyer> Similar here. Prime plus on most mortgages and loans. Federal Reserve Bank sets the interest rates and banks follow suit.
<Eickmeyer> The Federal Reserve makes the money and is part of the Department of Treasury.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We're going to be getting some FTBFS errors as the Launchpad team decided to add riscv64 to the list of available architectures, and it's very buggy.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-04
<RikMills> mypaint fixed in debian, so synced and in queue
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: \o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-05
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  so pi4?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I have no idea what's going on, just got up. pi4?
<OvenWerks> in response to your comment yesterday  about riscv64
<OvenWerks> or is that different from arm?
<Eickmeyer> That's different from arm.
<OvenWerks>  :P
<Eickmeyer> It's some newfangled new architecture that's recently been enabled, and germinate doesn't yet exist for it, hence the meta failure.
<OvenWerks> I have not gotten any email about though so maybe I am not on that list
<Eickmeyer> Possibly.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> rasberrypi?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> @eixkemeyer ovenwerks its probably rasberrypi4?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Rasberry Pis use arm64 afaik. Not sure what risc is. I just know that Launchpad has enabled it, but not for anything to be released for it. I think plenty of things are still building for it which is why our FTBFS errors are due to packages not being available in those architectures yet.
