#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-29
<sivang> this also should be task orientd,
<sivang> as in :
<sivang> 1) Intro - why use Ooo at the first place? how does it comapre to proprierity software : lists of features that are already compatible with msword/other pro. wp soft.
<sivang> 2) Tasks index:
<sivang>   2.1 : Your first document in the FOSS compatible (nice to have instructions to at least 3 FOSS wps)
<sivang>    2.2 : Adding pictures.
<sivang>    2.3 : Writing web pages in the wp.
<sivang> etc...
<sivang> etc..
<littlegreenman> what is FOSS?
<sivang> not specifically in that order :)
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> FOSS= Free OPen Soure Software
<littlegreenman> :)
<littlegreenman> i have a little thingy done
<littlegreenman> see in the wiki
<littlegreenman> LearningOpenOfficeWordOutline
<sivang> As I am thinking of it, if you could create like a whole section for this, with coming up docs on even
<sivang> "Using GIMP for photoshop users"
<sivang> etc.
<littlegreenman> yeah
<sivang> get my idea?
<littlegreenman> i do... 
* littlegreenman has time constraints until the end of the week
<sivang> great. YOu're a heavy desktop user?
<littlegreenman> but wanna help as much as i can :D
<sivang> no problem on the time constraints
<sivang> thank you!
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> sivang, explain desktop user
<sivang> like someone who is very proficient with desktop usage, 
<sivang> like knows WP for well, desktop hacks :)
<sivang> image processing stuff
<sivang> IMing.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> stuff like that
<sivang> I always envied those desktop masters (even in windows) who knew 2 keys shortcut to everything on the desktop :)
<littlegreenman> yeah :)
<littlegreenman> what i am going to do
<littlegreenman> is take a look at *gulp* office manuals
<littlegreenman> and see also how they are written... set up
<littlegreenman> they have a headstart over us :D
<sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline <== take a look in it, I hope it doesn't collide with your wishes..if so maybe you can add stuff to their's?
<sivang> this is done by hornbeck and about 2 other people, maybe talk to him also?
<sivang> + post to ML :)
<sivang> what is gulp office?
<littlegreenman> *gulp* is
<littlegreenman> swalling dry :) as in i am embarassed
<littlegreenman> but i looked into office :D
<sivang> why embarassed?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I don't see they have a wp section, maybe you can be in charge of it
<sivang> hornbeck : ping
<hornbeck> yes
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> how you doing buddy? :)
<sivang> busy as always?
<littlegreenman> always present :)
* hornbeck is trying to set up a zope server
<sivang> ah, are we starting our own wiki? :)
<littlegreenman> i like how he is always trying to set up something i never heard of!
<hornbeck> need that icalender server
<sivang> haha, his our "emerging technology" guy :)
<sivang> everything just snaps out of the oven, hornbeck puts his hands on it and make it work.
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> we want a icalender server so we can all use one task list
<sivang> ah, in evo?
<hornbeck> sivang: I try
<hornbeck> yes in evo
<hornbeck> zope is not playing nicely though
<sivang> littlegreenman : he is very good at it :) but modest :) see if you can found the tomboy howto by him
<sivang> very very cool proggy
<sivang> been on my tray since :)
<hornbeck> I use tomboy from cvs now
<hornbeck> alot better
<sivang> what features?
<sivang> (using the tseng one)
<hornbeck> just panelapplet functions
<sivang> where is the tomboy howto, btw?
<hornbeck> no longer have to launch it
<hornbeck> I don't know
<hornbeck> I will have to make another one
<hornbeck> it never made it to the wiki
<hornbeck> most people just use tseng's package
<hornbeck> my beagle how to is still real popular
<sivang> anyway, I think we've got someone to do the WP stuff for the book, what do you say?
<hornbeck> but beagle is broke for hoary
<littlegreenman> sivang, what is this tomboy thingy?
<hornbeck> I say thats great
<littlegreenman> or better
<littlegreenman> hornbeck, what is this tomboy thingy? :D
<hornbeck> tomboy is a note taking program
<sivang> an amazing reminder proggy, which act as a local wiki :)
<hornbeck> real easy to use
<sivang> tomboy ---> ROCKS
<sivang> !
<hornbeck> yes, it does
<hornbeck> I have to go eat guys
<hornbeck> email the list if you would like to help with the book :-)
<sivang> no rpob, will you talk to littlegreenman on his plans ?
<hornbeck> we need help
<littlegreenman> me too...
<littlegreenman> i will email the list later
<sivang> great, btw the outline is very good, I think hornbeck would like to see it
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> thanks :)
<littlegreenman> man, am i tired....
<sivang> ah, I
<littlegreenman> working full time than go home and work some more
<sivang> 've gotten up today at around 5:00pm..after a sleepless night :) 
<sivang> what do you work on?
<sivang> (if that's ok to ask)
<littlegreenman> it's fine... don't have many privacy issues :)
<littlegreenman> during the day in a hotel in lisbon
<littlegreenman> at night, ehehehe translations
<littlegreenman> english-portuguese-english
<sivang> ah, the scropions performed there!
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> I regretted not being on that amazing performance
<littlegreenman> when was that?
<sivang> 4 years ago I think,
<sivang> when their last new album went out
<littlegreenman> i was in england than
<littlegreenman> (btw not going to bother with spelling errors )
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> I see.
<sivang> who me?
<littlegreenman> me
<littlegreenman> me
<sivang> I have alot of them,,
<littlegreenman> :D
<sivang> not native english speaker
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> need also to do some work on my hotel's website... it sucks.....
<littlegreenman> it was horrible when i joined
<littlegreenman> but i did a patchy thing
<littlegreenman> and now looks like this
<sivang> is it PHP?
<littlegreenman> www.hotel-internacional.com
<littlegreenman> pure HTML
<sivang> (you have a link)
<littlegreenman> just text
<littlegreenman> i am not really a webdesigner
<littlegreenman> my first or second attempt really
<littlegreenman> but i am growing more and more embarassed of it
<littlegreenman> so, need to do something
<littlegreenman> btw PHP - i don't program never have... not sure what it means :)
<sivang> it's an open source language
<sivang> for doing  server processed web pages.
<sivang> generate HTML on the fly etc..
<littlegreenman> oh... it's a preety static thing i need
<littlegreenman> always the same... all that changes is sometimes a promotion or something
<littlegreenman> but i got a new set of photos really cool of the hotel.. those are OLD
<littlegreenman> so, want to make it more inviting... like, hey I wanna go there :)
<sivang> if I come do I get a discount? ;-)
<sivang> hehe
<littlegreenman> and we are going to hire a webdesigner, but that is only next here... so for the meantime they are stuck with me hehe
<littlegreenman> :D
<littlegreenman> you would get some port 
<littlegreenman> :D
<sivang> I see there's an online reservation system, is this yours?
<littlegreenman> ok, need to go to the shop, will be back in a bit
<littlegreenman> no
<littlegreenman> outsourcing
<littlegreenman> just put it up today
<sivang> I see. nice
<littlegreenman> that's when i though, wait, i need to do something about this
<sivang> maybe you should investigate PHP and mySQL, is the server a linux one?
<littlegreenman> not sure, never checked... probably NT or something
<sivang> ok, anyway, I have to go...Talk to hornbeck on the book and the stuff you want to add, he needs some help on it :)
<littlegreenman> :D
<littlegreenman> i'll do my best
<littlegreenman> take care
<sivang> you too! C'ya for the meanwhile
<littlegreenman> need to go as well :D
<plovs> good morning people!
<trickie> hello all
<trickie> would most of the changes on the page http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiWishlist be made to the plone software?
<trickie> if feel up to some of those task... just wanna get an idea of where to start
<trickie> i mean i feel up to some of those tasks
<plovs_work> trickie, answer to the mailinglist, most things things will be in plone
<plovs_work> trickie, and it would be great if some could be implemented with your help
<trickie> plovs_work, np... will do
<trickie> plovs_work, whats moin? Sorry, haven't used zope very much, but done a bit of python work
<plovs_work> moin is the previous wiki we used wiki.ubuntulinux.org based on http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/
<lulu> Morning all :o)
* ChrisH carefully takes a peek from under the bed sheets
<trickie_> lulu, morning!
<lulu> trickie_:good morning :o)
<plovs_work> morning all
<plovs_work> ChrisH, did you ever make a bootable usb-key under linux?
<trickie_> well it is evening here... but i hope it is a glorious morning for you all, it is finally getting warm (summer!) where is am
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Not yet. But i always wanted. :) My mainboard supports booting from USB. Might be fun.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'd also like to try out PXE boot.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, well, when i get it to work i'll let you know
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i need to make a ghost usb-key
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Cool. :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, it would be cool if i were a little smarter and a little less handsome
<plovs_work> ChrisH, it doesn't want to work yet
<ChrisH> plovs_work: All that boot stuff is not really trivial. Ask sivang. He had trouble himself.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i love this stuff, though, i think it is utterly neat
<George^Deka> hi all
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Hi...
<lulu> George^Deka: hi :o)
<plovs_work> George^Deka, hi
<George^Deka> btw, is there anything i have promised to do and havent yet
<George^Deka> this is my workflow - hehehe
<George^Deka> if someone can be bothered tell me what we wamt/need from a workflow type of system, (email me)
<hornbeck> good morning
<George^Deka> morning/nite hornbeck
<George^Deka> does anyone here know how to code?
<hornbeck> I do 
<hornbeck> what you looking for?
<George^Deka> well, check my ML post just now
<George^Deka> what can you code in
<ChrisH> Now we need a work flow for the task list?
* ChrisH wonders
<hornbeck> I use python, Common Lisp, C++, Java, and alittle C
<George^Deka> well i use the word workflow all the time (im an accountant)
<George^Deka> and a manager (well wanna be manager)
<George^Deka> accounting/managment is where my training is
<hornbeck> I'm a manager and don't use the word workflow
<hornbeck> asp is used quite nicely in mono
<George^Deka> thats asp.net
<George^Deka> not asp
<hornbeck> ok
<George^Deka> hows this look? http://www.gotocode.com/apps.asp?app_id=13
<plovs_work> anybody wants to by a usb-key it has slight scratches from being trampled on with too feet, being thrown against the wall twice, and small hammer-marks
<George^Deka> plovs_work: and its still a usb key ?
<plovs_work> it still has the little cord you can carry it around your neck with
<hornbeck> haha
<plovs_work> i am trying to make a bootable usb key
<plovs_work> but i admit defeat and use a bootable cd instead
<George^Deka> hahaha, yep so much easier
<plovs_work> did any of you make a bootable cd with menus etc?
<plovs_work> it's for norton ghost
<George^Deka> what do you mean exactly ?
<plovs_work> boot cd -> see menu -> choose intel100pro -> boot dos/netboot&run ghost -> copy image from server -> have tea
<hornbeck> would that be earl gray tea with milk and sugar
<George^Deka> umm, never done it like that, made dos ones only - so it boots dos then gives you a choice - but if thats what you wnat email me and ill get back to you
<plovs_work> no milk,no sugar, a slice of lemon would be nice, thank you
<George^Deka> bedtime cya's later (monday i suppose)
<hornbeck> night
<plovs_work> George^Deka, see ya!
<plovs_work> hornbeck, how's svn? the same?
<hornbeck> yep
<George^Deka> well decided ill leave it open for a few more min while i have a smoke
<hornbeck> I even talked to some svn guys
<hornbeck> I will just hope everything is ok till we move it to the Ubuntu Servers
<hornbeck> you worked on the faq I see?
<plovs_work> a little, no time, i'm afraid
<hornbeck> I understand that
<George^Deka> cyas again
<plovs_work> you still use monowall?
<hornbeck> nope no monowall
<hornbeck> could never get it to talk with my isp
<hornbeck> I am having to use a small netgear router
<hornbeck> I will be putting in a small cisco in about a month
<plovs_work> networking voodoo it is
<plovs_work> nothing works today, now i cannot even make a bootable cd
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> man you are having bad luck huh?
<plovs_work> i did get a new monitor, that was nice, with a dvi connection even
<plovs_work> but that was yesterday, it was not snowing then
<plovs_work> i hate snow
<plovs_work> unless it's on a tv, which i can turn off
<plovs_work> well, at least knoppix still boots
<hornbeck> thats at least good
<plovs_work> hornbeck, so what are you up to today?
<hornbeck> plovs_work: I am playing with plone
<hornbeck> got a zope server running right now
<hornbeck> about to try and route it through apache
<plovs_work> hornbeck, nice
<hornbeck> yeah, but it is giving me all kinds of errors
<sivang> hey all
<hornbeck> hey
<sivang> hey hornbeck, did you work out with littlegreenman on the Word Proccessing part of the book? He seemed eager and with the knowhow in WPs
<hornbeck> no I left before you did
<hornbeck> and he left right after you did
<sivang> ah ok, he seemed very eager to work with you, make sure you keep up on him.
<hornbeck> I will
<hornbeck> anybody around?
<hornbeck> hey Robert
<hornbeck> how you doing?
(ChrisH/#ubuntu-doc) Gonne be offline for up to half an hour. ISP is changing something.
(lulu/#ubuntu-doc) night guys :o)
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) is there anybody awake here?
* enrico is
<enrico> (not for much)
(sivang/#ubuntu-doc) haha
<ChrisH> me neither... about to go to bed... see you in my dreams :)
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-30
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) this has been a lazy group today :-)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good night guys
(plovs/#ubuntu-doc) moin
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) hey plovs
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) a new day ahead, i hope to get my ghost cd to boot today
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) today is a good day!
<ChrisH> Has anyone of you guys ever configured WiFi on Ubuntu?
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) nope
<ChrisH> Ah, got it now.
<ChrisH> wfconfig... we really need some information on that. There are three pages about WiFi on the Wiki but none tells anything but the list of supported chipsets. :(
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) everybody in barcelona is supposed to use it
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) we need a howto
<ChrisH> I don't have WLAN at home so I'm probably not a good information source yet.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good morning
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) and I have wifi
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Hi. You are invited to write a Wiki entry. :)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I will see if I have time today, if so I will do it today :-)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) the problem is, mine just always works :-)
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) hornbeck, good morning
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) hornbeck, as a frontend to subversion (nice link) http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/wiki/TracOnDebian
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) plovs_work: cool I will check it out
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) plovs_work: that has alot of dependencies
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I don't think the Cananical guys will go for it
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) Canonical
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) ah well
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) anyone know if you can move blogger archives to wordpress
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) http://wiki.wordpress.org/BloggerImport
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) nice, thanks I am lazy and trying to write this wifihowto
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) there is already a wifihowto on the wiki
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) just is not very good
<ChrisH> Where?
<enrico> Hello very nice people!
<enrico> I'm catching up a bit in the list
<enrico> And I've booked my tickets to the conference (!)
<enrico> Do we already have a wiki page with our plans for the conf?  Else, I can go on and create one
<ChrisH> enrico: We only have BOFs created by Sivan and me. Lulu was about to create an agenda.
<ChrisH> enrico: from what I heard the morning will have a fixed agenda from lulu and the rest of the day is free for anything. So I guess we should just meet then.
<ChrisH> enrico: Are you leaving on the 8th?
<enrico> On the 9th
<ChrisH> Okay. Sivan, Alex (plovs) and me will be there from the 8th to the 11th iirc. So we should probably use the 8th and 9th for talking about our things to do.
<enrico> gosh... we'll meet for just a little little...
<ChrisH> Sorry. But I cannot afford to live there for two weeks. :)
<sivang> Hi All
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey, it's him! :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net all new comers are welcomed, as you as you're being polite, kind and follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct - see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<sivang> ah, that's better :)
<sivang> Hi ChrisH
<ChrisH> |-|3y, Z1\/4/\/ 0|_|) B|_||)|)Y.
<enrico> ChrisH: do you have more news about the morning fixed agenda you mentioned before?
<cenerentola> enrico: time for me?
<enrico> cenerentola: after you wrote me insults in private for all the afternoon?  No.
<cenerentola> ahhhh
<ChrisH> enrico: I just heard from lulu that she was about to get it done and publish more information about the conference in general. Haven't heard from her about that topic since. Must have been about a week ago.
<silbs> guys - lulu is working on the schedule. It will only be a draft and probably won't be out till Monday. If you have specific bof sessions that you would like scheduled, please list them on the wiki (if you haven't done so already).
<cenerentola> does someone know anything about linguaplone?
<ChrisH> sivang: I think a few more general information on the conference is badly needed. Questions and more BOFs will probably come up later automatically.
<ChrisH> sivang: sorry
<ChrisH> silbs: I think a few more general information on the conference is badly needed. Questions and more BOFs will probably come up later automatically.
<silbs> ChrisH: like what?
<ChrisH> silbs: Where is the location? (The website of it is a little awkward.) What is canonical planning to present? What can visitors expect? Currently it's just "we'll share the same rooms for two weeks".
<cenerentola> thx guys for the immediate answer..hehe;)
<silbs> ChrisH: i realise that may be frustrating, but to a large extent that is what you should expect. This isn't a conference with scheduled speakers, panel discussions, debates.
<silbs> ChrisH: there will be several bofs scheduled per day, but to a large extent the value is in having the people in the same room, pair programming, planning work, etc
<silbs> the bof schedule lulu is working on will provide the general structure for the day, and we have already told you it is being worked on
<silbs> the location is at the hotel. I'll update the wiki to reflect that - the information has been vague because everything is being planned.
<silbs> Tecnocampus is still helping sponsoring the project, but the rooms there didn't work out.
<silbs> we are still 2 weeks out - the may seem like a short time to you, but that is ages in Ubuntu/Canonical time :)
<ChrisH> silbs: The Tecnocampus is near the hotel?
<ChrisH> silbs: Or are the BOFs being held at the hotel?
<silbs> there are several tecnocampus buildings - one is <10 min walk, one is approx 20 min walk. But we aren't holding events there anymore.
<silbs> see above - everything at the hotel now
<ChrisH> silbs: k. What will the tecnocampus being used for then?
<silbs> ChrisH: nothing will be at the tecnocampus. Everything will be at the hotel.
<ChrisH> 18:46 < silbs> Tecnocampus is still helping sponsoring the project, but the rooms there didn't work out.
<ChrisH> silbs: I'm must curious about the kind of sponsoring they will do. :)
<ChrisH> silbs: Personally I like the idea of having it all held at the hotel. My wife and my baby come with me and it's easier to not travel long distances.
<silbs> ChrisH: they have facilitated our being in Mataro, helped with the planning, and they are making a financial contribution.  
<ChrisH> silbs: kind
<ChrisH> silbs: Sorry for my ignorance. Are you from canonical?
<silbs> ChrisH: yes - sorry, should have introduced myself. I am Jane Silber.  I'm the Canonical COO.
<ChrisH> silbs: pleased to meet you... I'm just an inferior contributor in the doc team ;)
<silbs> ChrisH: not at all - you guys are the important ones. I just try to keep things running smoothly behind the scenes so you guys can do the important work!
<ChrisH> silbs: What does stand COO for? Chief Obscurity Officer? Chief Organisational Officer?
<silbs> ChrisH: all of the above :)
<ChrisH> silbs: Well, I guess we will all have a clearer picture of who we are after Mataro. :)
<silbs> ChrisH: hope this helped. We'll get a schedule out as soon as we can - suggest bofs as you see fit.  I'm off now - good night.
<enrico> ChrisH: ok, so we can start throwing our wishes
<enrico> I started a DocTeamAtConference page where we can do that
<ChrisH> Very good.
<enrico> I'll announce it on the list
<plovs__> hi guys!
<cenerentola> ciao
<asw> hey enrico! Still around?
<enrico> asw: about to go to dinner!
<asw> OK. I'm going to be in London dec 2-13 and I might be able to drop by for the doc BOF.  
<asw> If I come, I would arrive the 9th and leave the 10th.  Will you be there then? 
<asw> That's thurs/fri. 
<asw> hi plovs
<enrico> asw: I'll leave on the 9th afternoon, unfortunately
<enrico> I got a plane to Taiwan to take on the 10 early morning
<asw> I could adjust my schedule and just as easily come on the 8th/9th. but it will depend on the schedules of other people I need to see.
<asw> I'm glad I caught you. Have a good dinner. 
<asw> I've done quite a bit on the little project I mentioned to you in our last chat.
<sivang> asw : what project is that?
<plovs> enrico, hi, you'll make a page for the doc-team conference stuff?
<enrico> asw: the Graal? 
<asw> sivang - hi btw - in my non-existent spare time I'm working on an idea to fund certain types of free (as in freedom) communities. 
<enrico> asw: that's great news, then
* enrico goes having dinner
<enrico> asw: after the dinner I'll be curious
<sivang> asw : ah awfully nice! You have some kind of fund organization after you?
<asw> sure I'm often around (but often I forget to mark myself "away" when I'm not.) 
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-01
<Hoodster> Hi All
<sivang> night all
<ChrisH> Moin... just posted a revolutionary thought on -doc. ;) I'd like to join our effort into a single book.Let me know what you think.
<WW> Hi folks.
<ChrisH> WW: hey...
<WW> Have the wiki login accounts been reset lately?
<ChrisH> Mine works still.
<WW> Hmmm... maybe I'm having a senior moment...
<WW> Yes, I am... nevermind!
<ChrisH> :)
<WW> Strange... I'm editing a wiki page, and my cursor keys don't work in the editor.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good morning
<sivang> ChrisH : Hi
<sivang> ChrisH : What's up?
<ChrisH> sivang: read my posting? 
<sivang> ChrisH : Started now :)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: I think it is a very good idea to join the projects
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I just don't want to space it apart and it not get done than
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) We should do a good job though
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Great to hear that.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Currently I'm completely lost. I hear of new organisational wiki pages, new subprojects etc... but I think - just like you - that nothing gets done.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: If we joined it and everyone would get an own section to work it, that would be simpler.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: We are starting to try and get to organized
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's say: I take the "server/service" part and look for Wiki pages that deal with it. Once they are in the document the Wiki pages can be removed.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: That's why I'm curious about your TOC structure.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: good idea
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<ChrisH> hornbeck: If we have it too freely like "everybody do what they want" then nobody does anything.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) it can be added to
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) agreed
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) but we are starting to get to many organization pages
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I cannot keep up with where I am supposed to email or loginto to tell everyone what I am doing
<ChrisH> I'd like to have a single (!) Wiki page for this documentation project where you (if you like) could propose the TOC structure in a table.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) if I have a patch do I send to the  mailing list, bugzilla, or just add it
<ChrisH> Then everybody can put their names in where they like to contribute.
<ChrisH> Every section gets a file in your repository.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) well my repository will be moved in the next week
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) going to the Ubuntu servers
<ChrisH> Still subversion based?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) yes
<ChrisH> Great.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I think so
<ChrisH> Is anything done automatically to produce a new set of HTML documents after a check-in?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) not yet
<sivang> ChrisH : Very good. I agree!
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I will need your help with that
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Hmmm. Okay. I'll try. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : THis is much more straightforward approch then we already had,
<ChrisH> sivang: Okay. :)
<sivang> I am doing the follow up now :)
<ChrisH> sivang: I really get the feeling we have so much management that nobody is doing anything. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: k
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: that is what I was saying
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: did you look at the current TOC?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) robertj: You still around?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: haven't compared it to other dox like Progeny. But it looks appealing already.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I don't want it compared, we are trying to start fresh not copy :-)
<ChrisH> Wasn't there someone posting on the list about an "idiot's guide"? What about that? :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Nah, just to make sure we don't miss anything.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) that is by the guys at the forem
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) they don't really want help
<ChrisH> ah, ok
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: How about we post the TOC to the list, than people can give suggestions
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) but this really has to start soon
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes!
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ok
<sivang> The background seciont is mine!
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's rename the FAQ (but keep the Subversion path for now) to something like "Ubuntu User's Guide" (?) and everybody picks a section.
<ChrisH> sivang: For colorful desktop backgrounds? :)
<WW> Wow, are you really considering not having a FAQ?  At all?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: lets keep everything how it is right now
<ChrisH> WW: I could imagine that the FAQ will become a subset of the user's guide.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: what exactly?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: you mean until we know what we want (on the mailing list)?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: yes
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I thought we where moving stuff into the book not the faq?
<WW> ChrisH: And that will be easily searchable from the web?  So a new user can search for something like "pciehp"?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) the book is clean as far as content, so stuff could be added real easy
<sivang> WW : We'll make it searchable from Yelp - Shaun McCane is working on impriving the search option in yelp, ir would be ready for 2.10
<sivang> the search option is already avialable in cvs head.
<WW> sivang: 2.10? What about warty?  
<sivang> WW : well, we could do a backport of it into warty, I'm sure there would be no problem.
<sivang> When this get's finsih, people with warties would get updated through the regular cycle of aptitude, synatpic or whatever.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) well I am going to look at a new car
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) bbl
<WW> OK, I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.  Is there a rough estimate for when the new FAQ/Book/whatever will be available? Just ballpark: weeks? months?
<WW> ... or, more likely, "we don't know yet!" :)
<ChrisH> Err... I'm still confused. So our two documents will be FAQ and Book/User's Guide?
<sivang> ChrisH : main document - Ubuntu Handbook
<ChrisH> 18:00 < hornbeck> I thought we where moving stuff into the book not the faq?
<ChrisH> That confused me.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) well you said to change the faq to another name
<sivang> FAQ can be a section in the handbook, and can also be distributed seperatly, however I would like more be it in one bundle
<ChrisH> So the FAQ is dead? Where is the book?
<ChrisH> Okay. So the /faq repository will be used for the User's Guide.
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) <ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's rename the FAQ (but keep the Subversion path for now) to something like "Ubuntu User's Guide" (?) and everybody picks a section.
<ChrisH> Okay... :)
<sivang> The book should go like "this is the handbook blah blah blah, if you just inrested in common pits and falls, read the FAQ section first"
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Sorry. I have a bad flu currently and my brain doesn't work as usual. ;)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) I thought we where all going to work on the book?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) in the emails it sounded like we where going to move information into the current book 
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Will you be preparing the new TOC according to the structure used in /wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: hold on one sec
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) from what I understood, we where going to move alot of the data from the faq into the current book.  Am I wrong?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes. So the "current book" means the "faq repository".
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH: Why does it mean that and not the "Book repository"?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) The book already has the format for a book
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I mean... is it still the /faq repository we moved from my to you server?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) yes it is the faq repository
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ok
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) man you must be sick
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) :-)
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) http://69.155.172.150/book
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) is where the "Learning Ubuntu" book is located
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) that is what I have been working on
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) which is what http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline is based on
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) all the stuff for a book is already there
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) we have started it
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) there is no point in starting over
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) hello?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) well I am leaving now, I will be back later
<ChrisH> hornbeck: sry, voip
<Hoodster> Hi guys. I am looking to contribute again this weekend. However, I have a few questions before I do.
<ChrisH> sure
<Hoodster> First, is it necessary that I update via svn? When I try, the url that contained the repository doesn't appear to be accessible.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: did you notice we switched to http://69.155.172.150/... ?
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Unfortunately, I did not. BTW - How would I notice that (hehe).
<ChrisH> Hoodster: :)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Is the rest of the URL the same? Do I have to do a full checkout first?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: run: svn switch --relocate http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq http://69.155.172.150/faq
<Hoodster> ChrisH: That appears to work. How will I ever remember these commands (hehe)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: What needs to be done? I can work on various parts, such as more non-free installation issues. I can also add a section on how to automatically mount MSWindows partitions after a fresh install. These are only my suggestions, but I am happy to contribute on other, more important, areas.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: What is the status of the XML file currently? Have you changed anything in the contents of the faq-guide.xml? Or is it just a split version of the faq.xml? Because we should adopt hornbeck's structure and I'm not sure where to start.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I just remembered, I believe the update worked, but how do I confirm it? Is there a date or some other way I can tell that I have an updated FAQ list? Also, if you don't have any objection to what I proposed earlier, then I will get back to work. My plan is to install so that there is mp3 support. Let me know if there are any objections.
<plovs> hi guys
<Hoodster> Hi plovs
<Hoodster> I am ready to get back in the contributing stage. I wis thinking of adding to the non-free section, like mp3 if it is not being done already.
<Hoodster> plovs: What do you think? Alternatively, is there a more urgent area to work on?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: you will not loose anything if you have the wrong repository.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Thank you for replying. That is good to know. I apologize if my questions are a bit of an annoyance. I am sure you and plovs just want people to get to work, and here is this guy Hoodster that keeps asking these mundane questions, geesh (LOL).
<pl0vs_> Hoodster, no problem, better ask then not doing anything at all
<pl0vs_> ChrisH, nice mail you wrote, we should do with that
<pl0vs_> something with that
<sivang> Hoodster : see the topic :))
<sivang> Hoodster : Questions are always welcomed :)
<Hoodster> sivang: I am glad you clarified that... I thought you were referring to the part on code of conduct (hehe). I do find this to be a great bunch of guys. I will go ahead and add more to the FAQ, submit them and report back here tomorrow.
<Hoodster> Talk to you later guys!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<sivang> Hoodster : ok, look again:)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: thanks :)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Am I right that you didn't change the content of the .xml files but just the structure?
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-02
<skyrider> sivang: hi
<sivang> hey skyrider! what's up?
<sivang> doesn anybody have idea if when setting up apt pinning, I need to put in /etc/apt/apt.conf the ditro name in caps ?
<sivang> like Warty , or warty?
<sivang> plovs_work : ? :)
<skyrider> sivang: it doesn't matter IIRC
<sivang> skyrider : ok thanks.
<skyrider> I've published some photos of Ukraine you asked
<skyrider> sivang: I may be wrong ;)
<skyrider> sivang: you can see this photos at http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/
<skyrider> sivang: it's just random photos from different places in my country: cities, villages etc.
<sivang> skyrider : nice!
<sivang> thank you alot
<sivang> http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/img010.jpeg.html << AMAZING VIEW
<skyrider> sivang: you are welcome!
<skyrider> sivang: you wouldn't believe but that photo I've made in the center of my city %-)
<sivang> you know, we should maybe start some page on the wiki, each team and some personal photos of the members, their origin etc, care for the people part in Ubuntu :)
<skyrider> sivang: good idea
<skyrider> sivang: BTW what's about irc logs?
<sivang> hmmm good you reminded me, let's ping mako :) again - I'll email him if can't get answer today. Sorry about that!
<skyrider> :)
<skyrider> BTW mako is awesome guy
<skyrider> I've read his article today
<skyrider> I'm impressed
<sivang> where?
<sivang> He a great guy, yes
<skyrider> http://mako.yukidoke.org/writing/unlearningstory/StoryOfUnlearing.html
<skyrider> I lake that essey very much
<skyrider> s/lake/like/ :)
<skyrider> s/essey/essay/ :)
<skyrider> To much mistakes for one sentence
<sivang> no prob
<sivang> :)
<sivang> skyrider : maybe you should mail him directly?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I know he wouldn't mind.
<skyrider> sivang: OK. I'll mail him tomorrow.
<sivang> ok, great. sorry for not being that good service to you.
<skyrider> everything great, Sivan. Forget it.
<sivang> k
* skyrider always types 'make' instead of 'mako'. Bad habit ;)
<sivang> maybe you just compile too much code..:)
<skyrider> sivang: You absolutely right! :)
<robertj_> Hornbeck around?
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) robertj_: I am now
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) for a second at least
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good night
<pl0vs> hi guys
<ChrisH> pl0vs: hey :)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: did you read my question yesterday about your work on the faq-guide.xml?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, yes, writing an answer right now, give me 10 minutes, more
<pl0vs> ChrisH, good question btw
<ChrisH> Uhm? 10 Minutes? Just expected a yes/no. :)
<sivang> Morning all
<ChrisH> sivang: hey, master...
<sivang> ChrisH : Hi, What's happenin? :)
<sivang> I've seen somewhere a call for a meeting, I don't think it would server us too good in this, we can straight up the new format matter over ML, IMHO :)
<pl0vs> ok, mailed my reply
<ChrisH> sivang: the little one is about to go to bed, my anti-headache pills are starting to be effective, I'm working on UTF-8 in irssi and wonder whether (I|we)'ll adopt horny's TOC structure
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i'm in favor
<ChrisH> If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Is your faq-guide.xml anything different than the faq.xml regarding the contents (not the chunked structure)?
<pl0vs> anybody knows a thing about man=pages here?
<ChrisH> jup
<pl0vs> mine is more up-to-date
<sivang> pl0vs : what do you like to know?
<pl0vs> it is faq.xml plus something
<pl0vs> sivang, everything, in five minutes if you can
<pl0vs> how do i edit them?
<pl0vs> where is the source?
<pl0vs> is it docbook?\
<sivang> pl0vs : let's see, gemme a sec.
<pl0vs> one
<pl0vs> two
<pl0vs> three
<sivang> he hey
<sivang> :)
<sivang> sec = 10 minutes
<sivang> in sivang's time :)
<pl0vs> ah, ok
<pl0vs> :-)
<ChrisH> Could you all commit your changes? I could start to change the TOC structure.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, you're talking about the book?
<ChrisH> <nod>
<ChrisH> But the book in the /faq tree. ;)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, and it will all be docbook?
<ChrisH> Yes. Basically it's your work just changed to what John posted.
<pl0vs> and you want to redo the faq to a book (just asking so i understand)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: From what I understood: we use our current FAQ in John's /faq repository, call it "User's Guide" or "Handbook", keep your <book> structure and just put the current content in the section structure as proposed by John
<pl0vs> ChrisH, ok, fair enough
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Lead to a lot of confusion yesterday. :)
<pl0vs> it's not so important how we go about solving stuff, many roads lead to the same place
<pl0vs> we just need a clear path ahead of us
<ChrisH> And I think that this time we are close enough to it.
<sivang> just send me updates of what we are deciding :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH,  what do you plan on doing, incorperating wiki-stuff or writing all from scratch?
<ChrisH> For the protocol: "While sivan attended we decided to permanently block cenerentola, ask Mark for free beer and switched the Handbook from DocBook/XML to Microsoft Word 2004."
<pl0vs> three out of four is ok
<pl0vs>  cenerentola has been trolling?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'd like to take the currently articles we already collected in the FAQ and just not use the questions as a title but rather use the structure John proposed on the M.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Has he ever been doing anything else but trolling? ;)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, agree on the toc
<sivang> hahah
<pl0vs> ChrisH, do we have an op for the chNNEL?
<pl0vs> sorry, caps-lock
<ChrisH> pl0vs: sivan and me currently... but you should also get the privs... moment
<pl0vs> no prob, just so somebody trustworthy has it
<pl0vs> ChrisH, will you work on faq-guide or copy it to a new doc?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'd use your current chunked files.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Then we can distribute the pieces among us and start working without too much interference.
<pl0vs> ok
<pl0vs> agreed
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Could you register with nickserv so I can give you op privs?
<pl0vs> give it to plovs, not pl0vs
<sivang> pl0vs : I need to see how to handle the already "FAQ" in the support area, I had trouble trying to remove it / change it.
<pl0vs> or plovs_work
<pl0vs> i am not at my own machine atm
<sivang> It was added to the support section by mean of the CMS,
<ChrisH> pl0vs: is plovs registered?
<pl0vs> yes
<ChrisH> pl0vs: why don't you use the same nick all the time?
<pl0vs> but not atm, i have network problems at home
<sivang> not an HTML upload - so, we would also be needing to check if we can TOC it, or have the TOC already made inside the HTML.
<pl0vs> sivang, if we call this the ubuntu-guide then we can leave the faq? no?
<sivang> I am going to try to erase it all together, or move it somwhere else, or opena new FAQ section :)
<sivang> have we taken anything from there into the new , current DocBook FAQ?
<pl0vs> sivang, everything
<pl0vs> sivang, we just must make sure not to break too many links
<pl0vs> people have been linking to faq-answers
<sivang> ok, no problem. then a new section that is.
<pl0vs> sivang, the curse of backwards-compatibility
<ChrisH> Everybody in favor that I change the structure now? We would get a little chaos if you have uncommited changes.
<sivang> what structure? 
<sivang> of what?
<sivang> :))
* ChrisH beats sivang 
* sivang ouches
<pl0vs> ChrisH, go ahead
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Great. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1993/ch931121.gif
<sivang> ChrisH : heheh
<pl0vs> ChrisH, for the parents among us
<sivang> hahaha
* sivang LOLs
<ChrisH> pl0vs: :)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I like another strip, too... Calvin: "Dad, think of a number and I'll guess." Dad: "got it." Calvin: "Is it 239879?" Dad: "By God, how did you do that?" Calvin: "Hey, you are trying to get rid of me, right?" Dad: "No, you are psychic. Go show your mother." ;)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, yes, calvin and hobbes is probably my fav
<ChrisH> mine, too. Already ordered the last book I don't know for christmas. It's mandatory lecture in bed. :)
<ChrisH> Even if you are not parenting...
<pl0vs> ChrisH, my brother showed them to me for the first time, but now he doesn't think it is so funny anymore (he as a real calvin himself now)
<sivang> I dind't get the last one :(
<ChrisH> sivang: Calvin wants to play number-guessing with his dad. And the dad just wants to get rid of Calvin. :)
<pl0vs> sivang, subscribe to:  	http://www.livejournal.com/users/calnhobbes/data/atom
<pl0vs> i have it in my bloglines
<ChrisH> pl0vs: is the <!ENTITY... way the only one to include other files?
<pl0vs> afaik yes
<pl0vs> but i just copied it from somewhere else
<ChrisH> Hmmm. I'm thinking about splitting the parts into different directories. But if I wanted to include sections from there we would still need to define all includes in the main file as opposed to the certain parts.
<pl0vs> look in the gnome userguide, they have folders for the pics
<pl0vs> but all defines are int he first file yes
<sivang_away> pl0vs : apt-get source hello, then look inside the /man dir
<sivang> pl0vs : here?
<sivang> I just found out how to edit those manpages.
<pl0vs> nice, how
<ChrisH> sivang: vim?
<sivang> ChrisH : sorry, not "how to edit"
<sivang> where to find them
<ChrisH> ah... :)
<sivang> how to submit these to get included in the read package
<sivang> I will do a quick wiki page in it, under DocDevel or something.
<sivang> hmmm I should also update it to reflect oou new goal change.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: are you here?
<sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UDPManPageTask
<sivang> everybody please take alook
<hornbeck> sivang: what has been going on, I thought major discussions was going take part on the mailing list?
<sivang> hornbeck : I don't reckon too much :) Have you seen any apparent changes?
<sivang> my wiki page is just some try to explain how to go about the fixing of man pages.
<hornbeck> hold one sec
<hornbeck> I am trying to find it in the log
<hornbeck> ChrisH: If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)
<hornbeck> he said that last night about the book
<hornbeck> that is not right, that was never discussed
<hornbeck> everything must go through the ML
<hornbeck> (by the way this is about the book being moved)
<sivang> I don't think he has done too much already, and if he did, it's only affecting his files, I'
<sivang> sure he would discuss it more before he does antyhing widely
<sivang> ChrisH : you here?
<hornbeck> he is not answering
<hornbeck> why do you not think a meeting is a good idea?
<sivang> well, it can be a good idea, but why can't we just decided and direct thigns over ML?
<sivang> no matter how we try to make the meeting accesible by time,
<sivang> the ML has far more broad spread then the irc meetings :)
<hornbeck> right, I understand that
<hornbeck> but mailings do not hold the face to face feel of a meeting
<hornbeck> you cannot get someone's right off reaction on a mailing list
<hornbeck> thats fine
<sivang> well, I really don't mind the meeting,
<hornbeck> I must say though, that I am against what ChrisH is doing right now
<sivang> but I would like to see the oppinions of more people..shame nobody responds to much on the ML
<hornbeck> I will post to the list about it
<sivang> not a problem, you deserve the right to sound your voice - and I don't think he is doing anything wrong, if you disagree just tell how, and make it clear how you want ot make it to go,.
<sivang> what do you not agree with exactly?
<hornbeck> him and I discussed everyone's involvment in the book
<hornbeck> than it appeared he did not know the book existed
<hornbeck> than he decided that the faq would become the book
<hornbeck> that the work myself and a few others have done on the book would be discarded
<hornbeck> and just what him and plovs have done will be added till everyone else starts helping
<hornbeck> all of this without everyone's approval
<hornbeck> this is something that should be decided by the team
<hornbeck> his commint about  "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)"
<hornbeck> that is what really makes me mad
<hornbeck> we where in the middle of discussion yesterday when he disappeared, so I figured we would take it back up today
<hornbeck> not him decide to proceed without the team saying yes
<hornbeck> that is basicly taking all the work that has been done offline "faq/book" discarding one and completly butchering the other
<sivang> I think he wants to add the FAQ as a section UNDER the book :)
<sivang> I'm sure this is what he meant.
<sivang> we talked about it also
<sivang> :)
<sivang> THe idea is the adtop the book,
<sivang> add sections to it,
<hornbeck> I am hoping this is all a misunderstanding :-)
<sivang> yes it is, I'm sure it is.
<sivang> <hornbeck> his commint about  "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)"
<sivang>                                                                                 ^^^
<sivang> oops
<sivang> notice the twink sign?
<sivang> it was a joke
<hornbeck> yes
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> I hope so
<hornbeck> he was pushing very hard yesterday for everything to be put into /faq on the svn server
<hornbeck> there is no reason to when /book is already there
<hornbeck> with the format and everything
<hornbeck> I do not want /faq to be gotten rid of
<hornbeck> does that make since?
<hornbeck> we already have a /book
<hornbeck> sivang: you leave?
<hornbeck> well I am going to work on a car
<hornbeck> later
<ChrisH> Sorry... needed to keep the baby busy.
<ChrisH> I'm about to commit the new structure. Just a few minutes.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, did you read the log? hornbeck does not seem too pleased
<ChrisH> Oops. No, I didn't.
<ChrisH> But I asked him about four times how we are going to do it. And up to the last I didn't get him clearly. I asked Sivan and he couldn't tell me either.
<ChrisH> I can't see anything that did not go through the ML. What I was doing today is exactly what I was proposing.
<ChrisH> Somebody tell me what's wrong.
<ChrisH> It was my suggestion to merge the book and the FAQ right from the beginning.
<sivang> I don't know what's wrong either, didn't he agree to put the faq to be a secion in the book?
<ChrisH> The "If we have a majority" had a smiley added (!) and was just a question if the proposed (and approved) merge could begin now. It was a matter of "when" and not of "if".
<ChrisH> Yes, he did.
<ChrisH> It has been quite a bit of work today to get it done like this. At which point did we not agree to merge it? Do I need a lawyer to translate postings?
<ChrisH> Everybody should know that I'm not the "I ignore others" type. I like 90% consensus and 10% action.
* ChrisH is a little pissed
<sivang> yes I know :) Shame he always goes away when you come in :)
<ChrisH> Just when I thought we agreed on something...
<sivang> He wanted to do a meeting also about that,
<sivang> I didn't see so much how a meeting can help us 
<sivang> and I noted to him that you had the ;) next to sentence there.
<ChrisH> Don't mean to offend hornbeck but neither do I. Since we have this fine channel I see no need for an additional meeting. (Other than that the timezone differences are bad.)
<ChrisH> <quote hornbeck>
<ChrisH> I get more and more confused everyday.  I think that I should be working
<ChrisH> on the book, but also trying to help maintain the faq, gnome-guide,
<ChrisH> wiki, and in the end I don't get much done because I am stretching
<ChrisH> myself to thin.  I think avoiding double-work is a great idea, and in
<ChrisH> the original idea for the book, I was going to mainly take other bits
<ChrisH> and pieces and tie them together from the wiki and debian docs and such
<ChrisH> so that it would incorporate all the docs already there.
<ChrisH> </quote hornbeck>
<ChrisH> I wanted to have the whole doc mess cleaned up and merged. Why is he going to work on a book that is can't handle because he is alone?
<sivang> I've pinged enrico
<sivang> I'll want him to help us straight this out.
<ChrisH> Good idea.
<ChrisH> I don't mind doing it like this or that. But we need a direction. I really don't feel like editing documents that are merged, joined, thrown away and started from scratch.
* ChrisH takes his pills
<pl0vs> in the end we all want the same, we want this thing to go ahead, and we might be calling the same thing with differnt names
* pl0vs hopes ChrisH doesn't take too many, we're not angry really, come back!
<ChrisH> pl0vs: The only thing that is unclear to me: do we merge everything into a handbook? Or do we have John's book and a collection of FAQs.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Not *those* pills. ;)
<pl0vs> i do not care either way
<pl0vs> the only thing i do not want is wasted work
<pl0vs> we should try to keep what we have
<pl0vs> moving it around is no problem, nor is naming it diffrently, faq, book, hornbecks book chris's faq, whatever
<pl0vs> ChrisH, are hornbeck's files in docbook?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, can they be merged?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: They are in DocBook and very similar to our work.
<pl0vs> ChrisH,  how much work would it be to merge it all in one doc?
<ChrisH> Let's see...
<pl0vs> one hour, two, a week, forever?
<ChrisH> Hardly any work. He has just started on "his book".
<pl0vs> ChrisH, but the toc is good?
<ChrisH> To make it clear what I intended: John's book structure is nice - I like it. I just wanted to put our current little articles into his structure.
* pl0vs just remembered that he liked it
<pl0vs> so if i understand it right, the only thing that ticked of john is either a misunderstanding of what you are doing or he didn't like you moving his bok in the faq directory and calling it faq, right?
<pl0vs> then it might  be easy to straighten it out, afaik
<ChrisH> It probably is.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, and you wanted to add all the stuff from the wiki in the book?
<sivang> he just misunderstood.
<ChrisH> Yep.
<sivang> I'm sure of it
<ChrisH> I assume he saw me taking away "his book". But as he said he cannot handle it alone and we don't want to do double-work it seemed only logical to me to join those two documents.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, why don't you make a proof-of-concept?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, then we discuss that, vote, whatever and get back to work
<sivang> ChrisH : I stand behind every word :)
<sivang> we can do a ML voting maybe
<pl0vs> ChrisH, sivang did you read john's lates mail to the list? it is what we are *all* talking about
<pl0vs> newcoolubuntudoc = docbook(book + faq) 
<ChrisH> I agree that the faq should not be ditched.  I think what we have should
<ChrisH> be moved up and maybe branched in with the book.  I do not support just
<ChrisH> trashing the faq by any means.
<sivang> pl0vs : I like your notation :)
<ChrisH> That's what John wrote. And that's exactly what I intended.
<ChrisH> No matter if it's /faq or /book. We'll surely find a location and ditch the other tree.
* ChrisH is off for half an hour - bathing the baby
<pl0vs> sivang, i am at another computer, what is the svn address of the book?
<sivang> then we do not have a problem at all :)
<sivang> hmm, I wouldn't know..:)
<pl0vs> sivang, pfew, i'm happy about that, i do not like fighting
<sivang> me neither
<hornbeck> are we all here?
<hornbeck> I am back and just read the log
<hornbeck> I apologize to ChrisH, I misunderstood what he was talking about
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What do you think? Everybody picks a part of the book and merges the FAQ sections there?
<hornbeck> I have reread all of the post and everything, I was very confused about the direction and being mad already I read the "if we have three" post as a literal
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What if I finish the work on what I currently have in the /faq repository (includes your works on the book) and commit that? Nothing will get lost.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: sounds good to me
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Thanks. :)
<hornbeck> sorry I jumped the gun :-)
<hornbeck> and it is not "my book"
<hornbeck> it was a book I was working on
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I'll still be off for 30-60 minutes. So the commit will be probably in about two hours. I think we will all be happy.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I hope so
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Okay... just thought our emotions came in the way of the work.
<hornbeck> well we seem on the same page now
<hornbeck> so everything is going to be in the /faq directory?
<hornbeck> I am off for a few hours, please go ahead and merge and we will work out details later
* pl0vs is looking at the apt man-pages to fix bug: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
<pl0vs> sivang, awake?
<sivang> yes, hre
<sivang> herhe
<pl0vs> i am looking at the man-pages atm, thanks for the page
<pl0vs> i was hoping we could have some svn repo, but it will just be in the packages
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes, you would need to change the packages themselves. :(
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Perhaps you extract the man page, correct it, create a "diff" and send it through bugzille.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Same old story: nobody but canonical is supposed to upload "main" packages.
<sivang> yes, my understanding says that we just send patches to bugzilla and the packg maintainers would take care of this.
<sivang> yes
<pl0vs> sivang, how is the gnome-guide, you did some work on that right?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, well, i have upload status, afaik, or at least i could get it
<sivang> you looked at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UDPManPageTask ?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, but i prefer diffing to bugzilla for the time being
<ChrisH> pl0vs: for "main"? really?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i did not really look into it as i am not planning to use it atm, but afaik i am a maintainer and have the right to upload packages yes
<sivang> pl0vs : you were approved on the last CC meeting right?
<sivang> That's interesting/
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm not sure about that. But I'm not even a maintainer. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, but i would prefer starting on something unimportant, maybe apt is not the right package to experiment with...
<ChrisH> pl0vs: If you just change the man page... that should be fine. :) You just needed to rebuild the package and that's it.
<sivang> pl0vs :  I think sabdfl noted that he wouldn't want to see people who were supposdly working on docs to commit packages..
<sivang> before they get enough approval by the TB
<sivang> he noted something about someone doing so being "a social problem" as they currently lack the infrasructure to enforce that.
<pl0vs> sivang, i agree with him, and i am not (yet) planning to do any of the kind
<sivang> well, that just solves my pkging grief maybe :) I had talked to seb128 on the yelp packages, wanted to help on it and eventually this got form as me sneding the patch to bugsilla,
<sivang> he asked jdub and the conclusion was they want to keep main packages at canonical hands in the meanwhile.
<pl0vs> sivang, not everybody has the same opinion, read the cc-meeting sabdfl is the most liberal, jdub (if i remember right), more conservative 
<hornbeck> sivang: as far as I understood, once we had our gpg keys signed well enough and understood packageing maintainers could upload fixes
<hornbeck> I was told that once my key is signed by a decent amount I could upload
<pl0vs> Hoodster, that is what i understood as well, but i do understand they do not want newbies to mess up main
<sivang> btw, on hoary you can already use the official package - my patch is already incorporated into it.
<pl0vs> that was supposed to be hornbeck 
<hornbeck> pl0vs: correct, they want us to have some experiance first, but in time we will have upload status
<pl0vs> sivang, does the new yelp read apt man-pages in xml?
<hornbeck> is evolution broke in Hoary for anyone else?
<hornbeck> it stopped working today
<sivang> pl0vs : provided that XML is DocBook enough, I guess that it can.
<hornbeck> :-(
<sivang> hornbeck : might be, I got really tired with that, switched to mutt and thunderbird in the meanwhile
<hornbeck> I just moved my mail to the server
<pl0vs> sivang, could you try: apt-get source apt, and in the doc folder try one of the xml files?
<hornbeck> really need to get it fixed though so I can use it on my laptop again
<pl0vs> hornbeck, gmail,gmail!
<hornbeck> pl0vs: I am not a big fan of online mail
<hornbeck> I like evolution
<hornbeck> I am thinking of moving to cvs so I can keep track of it
<pl0vs> hornbeck, it has pop-access as well
<sivang> pl0vs : yes why not, is this where my bug is sitting? (of the sources.list)
<hornbeck> pl0vs: even with pop access if I have no reader than it will not work
<pl0vs> hornbeck, if evo does not work you have web-access
<pl0vs> hornbeck, and if  it does you have evo
<hornbeck> I have web-access to my mail anyway
<pl0vs> hornbeck, or you must set up imap on your server and use evo or mutt
<hornbeck> I just prefer evo
<pl0vs> hornbeck, imap?
<hornbeck> imap?
<sivang> imaps rocks
<sivang> mutt also
<hornbeck> what is imap may I ask?
<pl0vs> hornbeck, ah, that is pop as it was meant to be
<hornbeck> I will look into that real quick
<pl0vs> hornbeck, search "pop vs imap" on google
<hornbeck> I am reading a imap page right now
<sivang> pl0vs : we need to convert it, it doesn't like this form of xml files.
<pl0vs> sivang, hmm too bad, converting it would mean moving far away from  debain
<sivang> pl0vs : what kind of xml is this?
<pl0vs> sivang, which means a lot of maintenance
<pl0vs> sivang,  refentry
<sivang> I am not sure yelp is the right tool to display man pages in the desktop
<pl0vs> sivang, ?????
<sivang> there's GUI man page readers
<pl0vs> sivang, i humbly disagree
<sivang> like xman and it's more civilized desendents.
<pl0vs> sivang, we should have one of-line doc-reader
<pl0vs> sivang, but i remmeber talk about making yelp man-page friendly
* pl0vs sometimes remembers things that did not happen, better take another pill...
<sivang> I don't recall, I might be mistaken
<sivang> I am checking again,
<sivang> topday os the GNOME love day dedicated to yelp btw :0
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> anyone know of a good tutorial about setting up a mail server?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes. ;) But it depends what you want to do.
<sivang> pl0vs : yes there are plans to use it for man pages reading :)
<sivang> you rememebred right.
<sivang> my memory starts to fail on me I guess.
<pl0vs> hornbeck, be nice to ChrisH he is our local mail deity 
<ChrisH> Nah... nobody needs to be nice to me because of that. ;)
<pl0vs> hornbeck, say the magic words: i want postfix+courier
<ChrisH> pl0vs: My irssi is set to auto-exit if it senses "postfix", "courier" and "mysql" in the same line. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i removed mysql (on purpose)
<sivang> hahaha
<pl0vs> ChrisH, what do you prefer for imap?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: courier.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I switched even my local mailboxes to courier a few weeks ago. The maildir structure is a little ugly but it works well with mutt.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I had the uw-imapd running for myself and the courier-imap for the users. Not very slick to run two daemons on two interfaces.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: And sivang is testing my mail server regularly so I don't need a network monitoring program. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, does he have an account on your server, smart move, free checking of up-times
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I want to set up a mail server for me
<hornbeck> right now my @freeshell.org account gets overloaded
<hornbeck> I recieve about 500 email a day
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes... I set him up sivan.workaround.org and an email account. Seems to work so far.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Do you already have a domain and MX entry pointing to your mail server?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nice to know where to beg if i evr need an account :-)
<hornbeck> no, I don't even know where to start
<hornbeck> I am looking for a tutorial
<hornbeck> or a site to start me in the direction
<hornbeck> looks like I found one
<hornbeck> nevermind
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm moving a server to a computer room in a few days. Then we'll have plenty of space and bandwidth. If you need a subdomain, email accounts or whatever... just ring.
<hornbeck> I have to run guys
<hornbeck> need to fix a car
<ChrisH> hornbeck: you should start here: http://www.postfix.org/BASIC_CONFIGURATION_README.html
<sivang> pl0vs : http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/yelpshots/yelp-ls.png
<pl0vs> ChrisH, thanks, i'll keep it in mind
<sivang> but it's only usable from CVS HEAD,
* sivang thanks a million for setting him up the imap mail.
<ChrisH> sivang: no problem... I like it that you share your intimate emails with me :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i like your tutorial more actually
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Thanks. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, and the postfix book from oreilly as well
<ChrisH> sivang: Did you read that I have maillog.workaround.org up now? Everybody can read your mailbox. What a great service. You don't even need to log in. That's very convenient, isn't it?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Haven't ordered it. I still need to read other books. And I wonder if there is a Python book from them.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it's not that good, if you can write your tutorial you do not need the book
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i can show you if you want in spain\
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes, I'm curious.
<ChrisH> In fact I learned a lot in #postfix and on the mailing list.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, remind me a day or so before, then i'll bring it
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Isn't it too heavy for the plane? It's not that important.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i only bring one small bag, no problem
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Just one set of clothes for 4-5 days? Uuuh. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i have a really handy suitcase, and small-foldable clothes, i travel often and light
<pl0vs> ChrisH, don't worry i don't smell :-)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i'm married now, those days are over
<pl0vs> sivang, nice the new yelp, is it in hoary or only in cvs?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I thought men begin to smell again once they are married. :)
<sivang> cvs
<pl0vs> ChrisH, about python, you should shop around but i like:  O'Reilly.Learning.Python.2nd.Ed.2003 (i have a chm copy, i plan to buy the book)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, o'reilly as well
<ChrisH> Nice.
<ChrisH> I was reading an URL mdz showed me. But I would like to have something like the "Perl Cookbook" in Python.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, python cookbook?
<ChrisH> My first Python scripts will probably just be Perl with another syntax. But the philosophy seems to be different.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: There is a cookbook? Nice.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i have it as pdf if you want to check before you buy?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it's a pain to read from a screen, but ok to check it out
<ChrisH> pl0vs: With pleasure.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm one click away from buying it on amazon. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it's 1.8 mb, should i mail it?
<sivang> ChrisH : what book is this?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: yes, please
<sivang> ahhhh! just saw the message regarding maillog! no!!!
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: :)
<sivang> btw, what book are you talking about? can I also get a copy?
* sivang likes computer books :)
<ChrisH> Python Cookbook
<sivang> ayh!
<sivang> splendid
<ChrisH> I'm sure I can catch up the basics of Python online. But I probably need some recipes on how to do what.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, /usr/share/doc/diveintopython/html/toc/index.html and the python docs are quite good as well
<sivang> pl0vs : how much are you already into python?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes, diveintopython is really nice. I started to dream of "everything is an object". :)
<sivang> everything IS an object :)
<ChrisH> sivang: You better not try to flirt with girls with that slogan...
<pl0vs> sivang, not far enough, i'm afraid
<pl0vs> where is whois?
<ChrisH> ?
<pl0vs> the command, i don't have it
<ChrisH> for IPs?
<ChrisH>  /whois pl0vs 
<pl0vs> no to look up my domain
<ChrisH> pl0vs: www.internic.net for .com
<ChrisH> pl0vs: or my favorite site: www.dnsstuff.com
<pl0vs> dig, ping, whois etc
<pl0vs> the whois command does that
* pl0vs is dum, it is in the whois package
* pl0vs bangs his head on the mouse pad
<ChrisH> The QWERTY effect. ;)
* ChrisH gets some oven cheese ready <yum> <yum>
* pl0vs goes off to find food as well
<pl0vs> ChrisH, what is the opposite of ctrl-p in vim (search forward)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: n
<ChrisH> = net
<ChrisH> = next
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Do you know the vim command for opening the filename the cursor points at? There is "K" for man pages. I swear I once saw that for files.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: would be really handy for this document
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i know it exists...
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i mean ctrl-p for completion, p is backwards completion
<ChrisH> pl0vs: ah. ctrl-n of course :)
<ChrisH> next/previous
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i had an override in my bashrc, duh
<pl0vs> ChrisH, imap \fn   <C-R>=expand("%:t:r")<CR> 
<pl0vs> ChrisH, this inserts it
<ChrisH> oops
<pl0vs> ChrisH, you working on the faq-book-guide?
<ChrisH> Yes... I'm in the last chapter of John.
<ChrisH> Was a little more work. But I think it's worth it.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i am really curious, i svn update every 5 minutes
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> I think I'll keep that for myself, ask O'Reilly and get richer than Mark. ;)
* pl0vs knew that was the plan all along
* pl0vs plots revenge
<ChrisH> "hornbeck" is just another of my nicks to distract you. :)
* pl0vs 's paranoia sets in again, needs another pill
* ChrisH is about to commit
<ChrisH> DONE!
<pl0vs> ChrisH, great!
<sivang> so it the faq and book merged already?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> yes... one moment though... some files are not yet added
<pl0vs> ChrisH, what does this do? i don't get it:    <para>Uses HTTP to access the archive at archive.ubuntu.com, and uses only
<pl0vs>    the hamm/main area.</para>
<pl0vs>    <literallayout>deb http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive hamm main</literallayout>
<pl0vs> uses onl the hamm/main area. ????
<ChrisH> NOW!
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it even has icon-like pictures!
* pl0vs dances in front of his computer, just like golum
<ChrisH> Please read the README. I invested some time cleaning the titles and reference IDs.
<ChrisH> It would be nice if we have a consistent formatting and syntax.
<ChrisH> I pray this is okay for everyone.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i do not see many faq-issues
<pl0vs> ChrisH, will they be merged or will they stay seperate?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: They are still in the parts/old directory.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: My idea would be that everyone picks a chapter and grabs the FAQs that fit into his sections from the old/ directory.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I know this doesn't look like much work - but it was. If I made you wait until I distributed and rewrote the old FAQ it had taken another day.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I hope everybody can cut out the pieces from there.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, ok, i had a really long and good sounding question but it is no longer necessary to ask...
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i know, i redid the faq
<ChrisH> pl0vs: did you send the PDF to gmail? I'm curious. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, yesterday already
<ChrisH> pl0vs: tnx
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I have used xincludes instead of entities now for including files. That way it's a little more clearly laid out and it works recursively.
<ChrisH> Okay... thanks for the discussion. I hope everyone feels okay about this one. So let's pick our pieces and get ready to rumble. ;)
<ChrisH> I'll take the rest of the day off. But just tell me if we need to change anything or if someone objects.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i'll send a write-up to the ML
<ChrisH> pl0vs: tnx
<sivang> pl0vs : I think I'll start with the 3 subsections under the 'about'
<sivang> pl0vs : boy it looks great1
<sivang> ChrisH : Well Done!
<sivang> How did you make it look in yelp that good?
<sid77> hi
<ChrisH> But let's hear what hornbeck says. ;)
<sivang> ChrisH : it's superb
<sivang> hi sid77
<ChrisH> sivang: Thanks. But it's still only the TOC and the article about installing Ubuntu from John.
<ChrisH> sivang: Now comes the part for everybody where we can work on.
<sivang> ChrisH : I am taking the 'About' part, where do you think the background guide can be incorporated, if at all?
<sid77> hi sivang
<ChrisH> sivang: Hi, Sid.
<sid77> lol
<sid77> tab frenzy?
<ChrisH> sivang: What kind of background exactly? The meaning of Gnu, Ubuntu and Linux should be in the first chapter IMHO.
<ChrisH> sivang: Could you (as hour honorable chief master organiser) manage the information who works on what? We could as well put that into the document itself.
<ChrisH> sivang: I offer myself for sysconfig or software.
<sivang> ChrisH : yes! thy humble servant ! :)) MOUHHAHAHA
<sivang> Let's start with a MOIN MOIN table on the wiki
<sivang> :)
* sivang was intentionally using caps on the moin moin part :)
<sivang> I got a nasty rash last time I tried to use ReST
<sid77> bye all
<ChrisH> sivang: okay... but then we have it twice in the docs again...
<sivang> ChrisH : huh?
<ChrisH> in the wiki and in the docbook (the toc)
<ChrisH> but that is probably not our biggest problem
<sivang> you mean where to put the table with where everybody say what he is working on?
<plovs> we should remove redundant stuff from the wiki imo
<ChrisH> can't we just put our names in the chapters we are working on?
<plovs> ChrisH, why don't we all just pick a chapter?
<plovs> on the ML
<plovs> and when it's finished, say so and it's open for all
<ChrisH> plovs: k
<ChrisH> just please not yet another wiki page :)
<plovs> ?? should reduce the number of wiki pages
<plovs> we
<plovs> dump half the wiki in the book
<plovs> and use wiki for updates
<plovs> imho
<ChrisH> yes please
<ChrisH> The "documentation team" aka the "anti-wiki gang" :)
<plovs> since we wrote most of it in the first place, we can undo it as well
<plovs> besides the book should be published in the support section asap
<plovs> just send your prefeered chapter to the ML
<plovs> sivang, you ok with this?
* sivang reads
<ChrisH> plovs: asap will probably still be a 2-4 weeks from now
<plovs> ChrisH, that's the ap part of asap, i suppose
<plovs> but it should be before barcelona if possible
<plovs> even if beta
<sivang> Yes, as the chairman I agree :)
<sivang> But, it would cost ya bucks people
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Your honor. You are discharged of your duties for telling rubbish. You will further serve as a proofreader of Gentoo. :)
<plovs> ChrisH, we would need some extra wiki-pages, actually, errata for the guide
<plovs> one page for every part maybe
<sivang> hahaha
<ChrisH> containing what exactly?
<plovs> ChrisH, errata, things that are not there typos etc
* plovs thinks maybe we should write the thing first and then publish errata
<sivang> but please don't make me proofread for Gentoo
<sivang> please
<sivang> anywa, so we leave off the wiki page for the task assignment?
<plovs> mandrake? bug reports?
<plovs> sivang, i vote for ML
<plovs> for now
<plovs> we're only four/five guys anyway
<sivang> ok then
<sivang> I don't mind, it supports my wiki lazzyness
<sivang> :)
<plovs> i call it a day, i have a busy day tomorrow, see ya all!
<sivang> bye plovs!
<ChrisH> anyone posting on the ML?
<sivang> I did
<sivang> I said I will do the 'About'
<ChrisH> i will do the sysconfig.
<ChrisH> Let's see what John is on for.
<plovs> ChrisH, what's your sig?
<sivang> post the ML
<plovs> ChrisH, ".signature" [Modified]  3 lines --100%--                3,41         All
<ChrisH> that *is* my sig :)
<ChrisH> hmm... once the doc is done we should think about a translation
<sivang> we have already many people eager for teanslation,
<sivang> littlegreenman would be the guy for the protugeese
<sivang> skyrider for russian
<sivang> what does that signature mean?
<ChrisH> Never used "vim" before? :)
<sivang> I use it just to edit conffiles,
<sivang> other than that, I'm still VIM dummey
<ChrisH> just look at the bottom line when you have vim open
<sivang> nothing
<ChrisH> try Ctrl-G
<sivang> nothing special
<ChrisH> okay... it's supposed to be an editor windows of vim editing a ".signature" file. so it's a recursive vim-insider gag. :)
<sivang> and I absolutely understood this phrase :)
<sivang> or not,
<sivang> sivang.understand(chrish) or die(
<sivang> "error at line1")
<ChrisH> are you snaking me?
<sivang> snaking?
<sivang> no
<sivang> what does that mean?
<ChrisH> python?
<sivang> ah it was mixing python and perl ;)
<sivang> got you on vim
<sivang> I now see the line at the bottom
<sivang> "[No File] " [Modified]  8 lines --100%--                                           8,0-1         All
<falco> hi
<falco> is the documentation team
<falco> responsable for documentation translation
<falco> ?
<sivang> yes falco, how are you?
<falco> I'm fine
<sivang> Are you interested in translating stuff?
<falco> I would like to give a hand in the Portuguese translation
<sivang> ah great!
<falco> and if I have time I might do more than that
<sivang> There is already someone who also likes to contribute on that front,
<sivang> littlegreenman
<sivang> he's also portuguese
<sivang> :)
<falco> yes
<falco> great
<ChrisH> sivang: do we have a translation organisation page on the wiki?
<sivang> ChrisH : we have the translation communties page on the mai site,
<falco> I'll speak to him
* sivang is searching 
<sivang> falco : I would advice to also post to ML, after subscribing to it,
<sivang> introducting yourself etc,
<sivang> expressing your intention to contribute in translation to portuguese
<sivang> :)
<falco> ok
<falco> I'll in a few minutes
<sivang> cc:lulu@canonical.com for that matter 
<falco> ok
<falco> sivang: is that your e-mail?
<sivang> no, this is the email for the contact person in canonical that takes care of the interactio between the docteam and the company :)
<sivang> but you need not email them persoannly,
<sivang> just post the list.
<falco> ok
<falco> just to know what should I put in evolution contacts
<sivang> you should subscribe first
<sivang> and come here tommorow also, maybe early to get some of the doc team people to know you
<littlegreenman> been away sivang
<sivang> littlegreenman : falco is here is also willing to join the translation front, would you like to tell him what you already know - also, where is that page with langs communites?
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> sivang: yeah, no prob
<sivang> thanks
<littlegreenman> sivang: i have one tiny problem... is that i don't know where the work of the new ubuntu help file
<littlegreenman> is located or better
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-03
<littlegreenman> i know where it is
<littlegreenman> but that whole svn is chinese to me
<sivang> I know we have administrators for each language group, can't find that darn page though.
<littlegreenman> i know you guys were having some kind of meeting today... i was busy doing other stuff
* littlegreenman watching football :D
<littlegreenman> but i will talk to falco and we can work on the portuguese translation side of things
* littlegreenman just came home and had 1 too many beers btw
<sivang> littlegreenman : it was nothing formal, read the post on the ML :)
<sivang> littlegreenman : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
<sivang> use the part for repository users.
<littlegreenman> sivang: sorry if i am asking things you guys have covered. but how is the whole ubuntu manual hornbeck was working on.... at what stage is this?
<littlegreenman> is this being worked at?
<sivang> we are integrating the hornbeck table of contents with the already available FAQ,
<sivang> it already looks great :)
<littlegreenman> :) 
<sivang> and even works great under the gnome help broswer
<littlegreenman> yeah, the thing we were talking about... on the mailing list....
<sivang> No, proble for questions :) However, I will say good night for now :) unless you have anything urget :)
<littlegreenman> and this is in the svn thingy, the hornbeck http:// ip address he gives?
<littlegreenman> just that last q :D
<littlegreenman> gotta go too... tomorrow is monday, gotta work
<sivang> yes
<sivang> It is,
<sivang> it's available there for checkout
<littlegreenman> okidoki
<littlegreenman> bye bye
<littlegreenman> take care
<sivang> night!
<falco> well
<falco> I'm leaving
<falco> hasta people
<robertj_afk> hornbeck, you here?
<hornbeck> yes
<robertj_afk> Whew, busy weekend, having a birthday is such a pain
<hornbeck> I just got done replacing brakes on my wifes car
<hornbeck> fun stuff
<hornbeck> I am about to eat but I will be back in about 30
<robertj> see you then
<ggi> hi
<ggi> I'm finally finished all the essays I've been bogged down with, and I'm wondering what I should start working on.
<robertj> hornbeck: what are you using to build the docs?
<robertj> ggi: Common Tasks listen to music is a good one
<ggi> robertj: I'll take a look.
<robertj> hornbeck: let me know when yo uget back
<hornbeck> robertj: my wife wants me to go to the store with her
<hornbeck> I am sorry
<hornbeck> why not email me
<hornbeck> hornbeck at freeshell dot org
<hornbeck> that way we can work that way
<robertj> wanted to just chat with you in person ;)
<robertj> anyway, is there an yeasy way to build it as a single doc
<hornbeck> have you heard all the stuff going on latly?
<hornbeck> the book has been merged with the faq
<hornbeck> it is all located at http://69.155.172.150/faq
<robertj> so is edigint being done on the wiki?
<hornbeck> it is all being done in docbook I think
<hornbeck> I am really not sure
<robertj> so is the stuff in svn deprecated?
<hornbeck> it is in the faq svn repository
<hornbeck> the book stuff from /book is no longer
<hornbeck> do you read the mailing list?
* robertj goes to read
<hornbeck> it is all in a mail from plovs called usersguide.xml
<hornbeck> gotta go
<hornbeck> be back later
* robertj makes
<robertj> much better, the lack of a margin is bad though ;)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I have a question...
<hornbeck> ChrisH: you here?
<sivang> hi hornbeck, I'm here
<hornbeck> hey
<sivang> having trouble sleeping lately ...
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> we are working toward Hoary with this new guide right?
<sivang> yes :)
<sivang> Finally we agreed , if I'm not mistaken.
<hornbeck> ok, under system configuration in the new guide, do you think it should match up with the system configuration menu under computer?
<sivang> lemme see.
<hornbeck> it would make since, since we are calling it system configuration
<sivang> I Know ChrisH has told me he wants to work on this section also
<hornbeck> yeah I know he does
<sivang> maybe you should be mailing him wait for his response on the morning?
<sivang> or , UTC+2 morning :)
<hornbeck> but in my old TOC it was identical to the Hoary System Configuration menu
<hornbeck> thats why I was looking for him in here :-)
<sivang> he's never here around these hours.
<sivang> try maybe,
<sivang> in about 5 more?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> is that reasonable for your timezone?
<hornbeck> five more and I will be in bed
<sivang> then 4? :)
* sivang tries
<hornbeck> it is about 10 at night here?
<sivang> you mean, for me?
<hornbeck> sorry did not mean the ?
<hornbeck> it is 10 at night here
<sivang> ah I see.
<sivang> it's 5:43am here :)
<sivang> didn't sleep at all in the night..
<sivang> but sun hasn't come yet,
<hornbeck> well it is really 9:43pm here
<hornbeck> Sunday
<sivang> You know what, mail me and him , I'll talk to him about it when I See him
<sivang> what do you say?
<hornbeck> well, I will start working on the Common Tasks section
<hornbeck> see you tomorrow
<sivang> have you mailed the list about it?
<hornbeck> yeah, I just did
<sivang> we all mailed the list with our intention on what to work.
<sivang> ah ok
<sivang> hreat!
<sivang> great!
<sivang> (damn the kbd)
<hornbeck> of course for some reason the mail is not showing up
<hornbeck> :-(
<sivang> hmm lemme check
<sivang> I think I got yours:
<sivang> I will work on the Common Tasks.  Also some sections was left out of
<sivang> System Configuration, if we are working towards Hoary.  I will add these
<sivang> if that is alright.
<sivang> John
<hornbeck> I guess it did show up
<sivang> yes I got it 
<hornbeck> kinda slow here I guess
<sivang> maybe your getting lagged because of too many relay systems.
<hornbeck> no one else took that did they?
<hornbeck> maybe
<sivang> I don't think so,
<sivang> lemme check the list
<hornbeck> my server is running slow
<hornbeck> I may have missed some mail
<sivang> Chris - I'll do the "System Configuration" part.
<hornbeck> got that one
<hornbeck> just you, plovs, and chris had posted about it right?
<sivang> AP : I for one would like to start with: Part IV  Software
<sivang> yes
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> and me,
<hornbeck> than I have them all
<sivang> the about and the background info
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> is it all going to be one file?
<sivang> Was great looking the TOC In yelp btw:)
<sivang> the toc you worked, together with the more work AP and chris put into it - supreb
<hornbeck> I had that running like three days ago :-)
<sivang> now we just need to put content into it
<sivang> :)
<sivang> who was that guy you worked with on the toc?
<sivang> we should get him here and help on the content part
<hornbeck> robertj
<hornbeck> he was here earlier but I had to run
<hornbeck> he is not filled in, on this change I do not thing
<hornbeck> think
<sivang> I don't reckon it would be much of a problem, after all nothing hard was done :)
<sivang> only good IMHO
<hornbeck> I feel kinda bad though because he worked alot on that with me
<sivang> we need to focus on lowered earth, trimmed down goals for haory, this is the major one,
<sivang> and the 2 others are following,
<sivang> so guess it looks good.
<hornbeck> and we had plans to work on the wiki and the docbook at the same time and keep them both up to date with the same info
<hornbeck> well, I am going to start working on this.  Hopefully I will have a good amount of content in it this week
<hornbeck> talk to you later
<hornbeck> I like how he broke it all down into chapters
<sivang> I see, well, the current suggestion is to use the wiki as an errata
<sivang> which seems reasonable, what do you think?
<sivang> It's too much work updating both the wiki and the dobook
<sivang> and we have it doc book, we could always publish "unstable" braches to the website
<sivang> exported is plain HTML.
<sivang> Is this acceptable?
<hornbeck> yes, that is good
<hornbeck> him and I had talked about that before all the talk of the wiki only being used for errata had been discussed
<sivang> I meant unstable=stable
<hornbeck> right
<hornbeck> what does gnome-common do?
<sivang> did you apt-cache gnome-common?
<sivang> sorry,
<sivang>  apt-cache show gnome-common
<hornbeck> nope?
<hornbeck> that is neat
<hornbeck> do you think it would hurt if I installed gnome-common from cvs so I can use yelp from cvs?
<hornbeck> nevermind
<hornbeck> using gnome-common from hoary let me build the new yelp
<sivang> hornbeck : are you using jhbuild?
<hornbeck> nope
<hornbeck> I build all my own cvs stuff
<hornbeck> I run alot of cvs
<hornbeck> going to build evolution tonight
<hornbeck> since the hoary evo does not work
<sivang> you should use jhbuild
<sivang> it is THE way to CVS :)
<hornbeck> I don't like it
<sivang> google for it,
<hornbeck> I have used it before
<sivang> what was wrong with it?
<hornbeck> I used to use jhbuild and garnome
<hornbeck> I just do things my way now
<hornbeck> I have my own way of building
<sivang> ./make install
<sivang> ./mak
<sivang> ?
<sivang> what didn;t you like in it?
<hornbeck> it always died on my
<hornbeck> me
<sivang> ah
<hornbeck> I have not tried it for awhile though
<hornbeck> maybe I will try it tonight
<hornbeck> do you use it?
<sivang> I used it to install yelp from cvs,
<sivang> it just rulezed for this sole purpose
<hornbeck> so you don't do a complete install with it?
<sivang> I am trying,
<hornbeck> nice
<sivang> fd.o has been taken down to maintainance
<sivang> after some compromise,
<sivang> so it oculdn't install the whole gnome
<sivang> but it's still working !
<hornbeck> does it install to /opt still
<sivang> no,
<sivang> you set up a prefix
<sivang> and everything goes there,
<hornbeck> that is cool
<sivang> keeping your system intouched
<sivang> untouched
<sivang> yes
<sivang> very much
<sivang> I'm getting acquinted with the ways of the GNOME :)
<hornbeck> I like to break my stuff to much
<hornbeck> I have always ran the whole GNOME from cvs till Ubuntu
<hornbeck> I ran gentoo with my own ebuilds
<plovs> morning guys
<hornbeck> morning
<sivang> hey plovs!
* sivang didn't sleep at all 
<hornbeck> man beagle is rocking once again :-)
<sivang> is it back in univesre?
<plovs> hornbeck, good!
<hornbeck> it never was in universe
<plovs> sivang, i just too little
<hornbeck> I need to make some beagle builds
<hornbeck> but it is multiple binaries
<plovs> hornbeck, how's evo?
<hornbeck> broken
<hornbeck> I am downloading the source from Ubuntu and the cvs so I can just roll my own binary
<sivang> hornbeck : are you going to diff between the two and patch one?
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> is there a simple way to build debian packages?
<sivang> I don't get it , could you please explain? how would that help you get a working evo?
<hornbeck> like one command?
<sivang> not exactly..
<sivang> the build command at the end if you require no special setups is ttrue one command,
<sivang> but you must make some preperations for it.
<sivang> read the NM's guide
<sivang> it is a very nice intro to this,.
<hornbeck> I have read it
<hornbeck> I was just wondering if there was something easier
<sivang> I this this is as easier as it gets..
<hornbeck> I did not know if some other method had come along
<plovs> hornbeck, still need to rebuild the kernel for beagle?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> I have a prebuild on my server
<hornbeck> if you want to try it, it is a stock kernel with inotify
<hornbeck> stock ubuntu kernel with inotify
<plovs> it's all the difference between rebuilding or not rebuilding
<plovs> i liked it quite much without
<plovs> why is inotify not yet in the kernel?
<hornbeck> it will be in 2.6.10 from what I heard
<hornbeck> I don't mind redoing the kernel, I have other stuff built in anyways
<hornbeck> my laptop looks like crap with out the radion driver built in
<plovs> i would like reiser4 and inotify
<hornbeck> I am thinking of building Ubuntu Kernels with alot of patches and hosting them
<plovs> for the rest i'm happy
<hornbeck> alot of people want all the bells and whistles
<plovs> hornbeck, well, if i can order, i need athlon with inotify as minimum, to go, please :-)
<hornbeck> you want me to build you a kernel tonight?
<plovs> hornbeck, if you've got the time sure, great (if not no prob)
<plovs> ok, i'm of to make and have breakfast, bbl
<sivang> hornbeck : take a look here also https://wiki.duckcorp.org/DebianPackagingTutorial_2fCDBS
<hornbeck> plovs I will build it while I am sleeping
<hornbeck> all I have to do is change the arch
<hornbeck> sivang thanks
<hornbeck> check http://69.155.172.150/download in about 8 hours plovs
<hornbeck> under athlon
<hornbeck> you will be able to use download.opensoftdesign.org in about five hours
<hornbeck> dns has to reset
<plovs> hornbeck, great!
<hornbeck> plovs: your kernel is building right now :-), and I am going to bed
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) hornbeck, thanks, and good night
<hornbeck> plovs_work: you around?
<hornbeck> your kernel is done :-)
<hornbeck> ready when you need it
<ChrisH> Moin, guys. I'm on sick leave.
<sid77> hi
(plovs_work/#ubuntu-doc) ChrisH, too bad to hear you're sick hope you get well soon
<lulu> hi all :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: Hey, lulu. :)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Thanks. But this way I have more time writing the docs while sitting on the couch with a laptop on the lap.
<lulu> ChrisH: Hi Chris :o)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, that's the plus of being sick
<plovs_work> lulu, hi!
<ChrisH> Yet another tonsillitis... :(
<cenerentola> hi ya there..
<cenerentola> someone here knows how the wiki works?
<cenerentola> and how is it being worked?
<cenerentola> i "need" to know where i can find the exact dates of the conference
<plovs_work> cenerentola, #ubuntu is for those kind of questions
<cenerentola> sorry
<lulu> cenerentola: on the front page of the website and where you put your name down for sponsorship - please read the website and search the wiki first......
* sid77 ciao
<falco> hi people
<ChrisH> hi, falco 
<lulu> falco:hiya!
<sivang> Hi All
<Hoodster> Hi sivang
<Hoodster> I can't stay, but I just want to wish everyone a great day!
<falco> tanks, to you too
<ChrisH> When do we apply for the "Friendliest Ubuntu Channel Award"? :)
<sivang> I am setting up the competition as we speak...:)
<sivang> Hey Lulu
<lulu> sivang: hiya :o)
<sivang> lulu : What do you think of our reorganization streamlined to several main doc feature goals? :)
<hornbeck> morning
<ChrisH> hornbeck: hey :)
<lulu> sivang: great to have the focus - sorry - have all the doc tea emails still to catch up on.
<lulu> hornbeck: hiya!
<hornbeck> hows it going guys
<lulu> guys - do we have docs for Windows users who want to convert to linux? and need some info/persuation?
<lulu> persuasion....!
<hornbeck> not that I know of
<hornbeck> I think that is something being worked on
<lulu> aah - just discovered - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LinuxIntro which  is a start...
<lulu> hornbeck: thanks.....this would be worth expanding on...
<ChrisH> Probably hard to convert Windows users when Ubuntu comes neither with a virus scanner nor a firewall. ;)
<ChrisH> sivang: Aren't you preparing an introduction chapter in the handbook? Could be something to include there.
* ChrisH is rebooting
* hornbeck is going to buy a new car now :-)
<sivang> <ChrisH> Probably hard to convert Windows users when Ubuntu comes neither with a virus scanner nor a firewall. ;) <=== LOLOLO
<sivang> lulu : I am working on this, it's a basis for the ntro section of the guide.
<sivang> anyway, I have to arrange some stuff, be back in an hour or so
<lulu> sivang: great - I am adding a link suggestion..
<sivang_away> lulu : I'll talk to you in an hour or so :) this is only a very start part of it, this is a comprehensive background guide :)
<lulu> ok!
<ggi> hornbeck: Are you around?
<ChrisH> What happened to the screenshot tool in Hoary? I don't see it. And it's not part of gnome-panel either.
<ChrisH> Ah, seems to be bug 3556. :(
<ggi> ChrisH: I remember seeing this on Planet GNOME. I think it's being rewritten: http://webwynk.net/jrb/#1100912296
<sivang> Hi all again, back for a while.
<ggi> Hello. Who do I ask for SVN commit access? hornbeck doesn't seem to be around.
<sivang> Let's see what with ChrisH,
<sivang> maybe he can help with it
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ChrisH : how do we give svn accesses to our devoted contributors ? :)
<ChrisH> sivang, ggi: Hornbeck must create the account. I can't help here.
<sivang> ChrisH : ah ok.
<ChrisH> sivang: It's a file in his local file system (/etc/subversion/passwd). Unless I hack his system there is no way. And he will probably not like that. :)
<ggi> Grr. When is he usually active here?
<sivang> ggi : he popps now and the,
<sivang> you can always mail him on the list and see where that gets you
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I reckon it wouldn't take too long before you get acceess .
<ggi> I suppose. I'll go mail him.
<ChrisH> ggi: Every once in a while. :)
<lulu> night guys - see you tomorrow :o)
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-04
* robertj unidles
<robertj> woot
<robertj> Update Manager on p.g.o
<robertj> sivang: any ideas on getting a chroot working with X for screenshot purposes?
<robertj> I've got a chroot setup, and I setup sshd to run on 222
<robertj> and I ssh -X into it, run xcalc, and it can't open the display
<sivang> there's a config file
<sivang> /etc/ssh/sshd_config
<sivang> X11Forwarding yes
<sivang>  <== set this to yes
<sivang> it's on that file of the host machine
<robertj> it's yes by default
<sivang> what's the error?
<sivang> ah can't open display
<sivang> :)
<sivang> what's the display number it's trying to open?
<robertj> aha
<robertj> it needs a localhost entry in hosts
<sivang> yes!
<sivang> or, set it up into the DISPLAY variable
<sivang> like set DISPLAY = localhost:{0,1,...}
<sivang> or something clsoe
<sivang> I don't recall exactly..
<sivang> How you been btw? What parts of the handbook are you working on?
<robertj> Nothing yet, I'm still getting things in order on my end
<robertj> doh Xnest is rejecting my client
<sivang> you want to take screenshots of GNOME proggies?
<robertj> not just that
<robertj> I want a stable chroot as a reference point
<sivang> ah, warty one?
<robertj> yeah
<robertj> aha
<robertj> got it
<sivang> what was it?
<robertj> I now have a chroot with an Xnest
<sivang> nice
<sivang> how did you made the chroot, debootstrep?
<robertj> yeah
<sivang> cool
<sivang> I'm setting a jhbuild root, with gnome 2.10
<robertj> what's new in .10?
<sivang> well, I mostly know the parts of gst and yelp,
<sivang> some new rendering symbols for yelp, mozilla style search panel,
<sivang> gst - nicer work with current avaialble interfaces, more gui functionality
<robertj> any chance of a gtk-bookmarks panel?
<sivang> I don't know, I havn't seen shaun talk about it ..
<hornbeck> ggi: you around?
<Hoodster> Hi all
<plovs_work> goooood moorning!
<hornbeck> good morning
<plovs_work> hornbeck, thanks for the kernel, i have no time yet, but i''l do it asap (i want to take a look at beagle)
<hornbeck> cool
<hornbeck> you know what is cool, my boss is posting to the -users list :-)
<hornbeck> I have him hooked
<hornbeck> he thinks linux is the greatest thing
<plovs_work> hornbeck, wow!
<plovs_work> hornbeck, you do common tasks, right? Will you add the stuff about adding flash/mp3/divx etc?
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> I will note that
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i think we would need something about how to make nautilus, more explorer-like as well
<hornbeck> in common task?
<plovs_work> yep, i am looking into deploying it here, and i will need is as one of the first things, it's always the same questions, sound, flas and what's with all the windows? and philosophical answers about the merits of nautilus as it is don't cut it
<plovs_work> that is pidgin english, sorry
<hornbeck> ok, I will add that
<plovs_work> how's the car?
<hornbeck> bad
<hornbeck> load of crap right now
<plovs_work> 'thought you were gona get a new one?
<hornbeck> I was, went and picked it out and everything
<hornbeck> than they decided that they were going to lie to me
<plovs_work> better safe then sorry, with family-money
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs_work> and maybe add something about installing the latest firefox as well, i do that as well (from mozilla.org)
<plovs_work> i love ubuntu and usb-key's i've been swapping just to that little window pop up
<lulu> morning all :o)
<plovs_work> morning lulu
<lulu> morning plovs :o)
<cenerentola> hello everybody
<cenerentola> ciao enrico
<sivang> hi all
<cenerentola> ciao
<ChrisH> Does anyone know how we can apply the patch from the -doc posting? I tried "patch < moreinfo.patch" but it didn't work. I admit I'm not the diff guru really.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, diff file1 file2 > dif_file1_2
<plovs_work> ChrisH, patch file1 < dif_file1_2
<ChrisH> plovs_work: yes, we already have the patch. But it does not apply.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Tried that. Care to try it yourself?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok
<ChrisH> Seems like patch hates me...
<plovs_work> sivang, looks like were roommates, mate!
<ggi> ChrisH: Works for me with patch -p0 < moreinfo.patch
<ChrisH> ggi: Strange, I could swear I tried -p0. But it works now.
<ChrisH> Okay if I check the patch in?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, did it work? from where and how did you apply it?
<cenerentola> sorry ive been busy with the exams in the last 3 weeks... what about the doc server?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: it's the patch from Nick Loeve for the moreinfo part. "patch -p0 < ..." worked.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, from the parts/moreinfo dir?
<plovs_work> or from faq?
<ChrisH> from the mailing list
<ggi> plovs_work: From the faq dir.
<plovs_work> ggi, ok, thanks for reading my mind
<cenerentola> hey ladies, have you got time for me?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Ah, okay. :)
<cenerentola> id like to apologize if someone felt hurted by my words: <cenerentola> hey ladies, have you got time for me?
<ggi> cenerentola: Uh, apology accepted. What was it you wanted?
<cenerentola> no..
<cenerentola> well yes..
<cenerentola> afaik this is the only output i got from you...;)
<cenerentola> ive been busy and stressed with exams [well the last one is on friday] 
<cenerentola> and i havent been able to follow the evolution of the doc team directives..
<ggi> Hmm, well. I've been kind of busy with essays too, but it seems we're all working on the book, which is now the faq in hornbeck's SVN.
<cenerentola> yep.. but what im more interested in guides...
<cenerentola> since im setting up an italian team, id like to use similar templates, so that guides will be more easily translatable
<cenerentola> we're doing very easy and detailed guides, which enrico [as docteam secretary]  doesnt seem to be interested in, and the only ppl i have are involved in the development of the guides-framework and this is
<cenerentola> why our knowledge about docteam ml is not updated
<ggi> Well, easy and very detailed guides sound good to me. Why isn't enrico interested in them?
<cenerentola> well he didnt seem to be very interested when i posted the mail on ubuntu-doc
<cenerentola> he got mad because i used the word "hominid" referring to computer science-impaired ;) [lulu:im joking, just to let EVERYBODY KNOW;)] 
<ggi> Well, I'm sure we can assume some things about our users. There's a difference between writing newbie-oriented documentation, and writing documentation for say, cats.
<cenerentola> no no..
<cenerentola> i wasnt talking about ubuntu's user.. i was talking about the friends of mine, that i was supporting at the time, which makes a great difference: im not considered and i dont consider myself rude.
<cenerentola> and they call themselves HOMINID
<cenerentola> ...
<cenerentola> said this i agree with you about cats... but i dont feel the need to agree with enrico but lets get back to work [i have flamed enough for today] ... ciao
<ggi> Well, seeing as you haven't been active on the list since then, it might be a good idea to post some of your ideas again, albeit with slightly more careful phrasing. :-)
<cenerentola> you're absolutely right
<cenerentola> but EXAMS...
<ggi> Right. Well, crack on with those.
<cenerentola> ggi: i hate economics..
<cenerentola> they're introducing me to algorithms, presenting them as ver very important.. well those are more simple than the simplest of calculus 1, 
<cenerentola> but let me say im rotfl
<cenerentola> so ciao 
<hornbeck> ggi, you around?
<ggi> yep
<ggi> For about five minutes, anyway.
<hornbeck> I applied your patch
<hornbeck> good stuff
<hornbeck> well, I am out
<hornbeck> later
<ggi> Grand. I noticed that Nick also submitted a patch to the list, commenting out the <email> tags, so you might want to do that with my author entry too.
<ggi> later
* sid77 ciao
<smurfix> lulu: thursday is the 25th.  ;-)
<lulu> smurfix: oops! so it is - did u change it already? :o)
<smurfix> No, I just added a note; didn't know if you meant tomorrow
<lulu> smurfix: if you're still on that page, could you do me a favour and amend it, please. Tx so much.
<smurfix> Umm, tomorrow or Thursday?
<lulu> :o) thursday!
<smurfix> ok  :-/
<smurfix> ;-)
<lulu> thanks! :o)
<smurfix> ok done. You can buy me a drink in return ;-)
<smurfix> (assuming you'll be there of course)
<lulu> smurfix: sure! 
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-05
<ChrisH> Cool web site: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ :)
<George^Deka> arvo all
<George^Deka> hi hornbeck
<George^Deka> its been a while since i checked out the svn, i gather from the ML its all going really well
<George^D^Work> back to work now will lurk around for a while though
<sivang> Morning all
* sid77 ciao
<cenerentola> hello ppl
<cenerentola> could someone please explain me how to create a new faq entry in the wiki [im translating it in italian] ?
<lulu> cenerentola: we are working on getting linguaPlone installed for local language support on the website in the Documentation section.
<cenerentola> should i do it in a normal page?
<lulu> cenerentola: on the wiki, simply log in and go to the Italian documentation section. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ItalianDocumentation
<cenerentola> then?
<lulu> cenerentola: check out: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<lulu> and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HelpPage
<lulu> for assistance.
<cenerentola> lulu: halt... normal page or not? just this... i know where the help page are and where the documentation is... i wrote part of it
<lulu> cenerentola: in the Italian section, you can create new pages by using the 'create new' page at the bottom of main wiki page.
<George^Deka> nite all
<George^Deka> any apt pinning experts here, i want to apt pin firefox from hoary for warty
<ChrisH> George^Deka: morning. :)
<ChrisH> George^Deka: yes, a little...
<ChrisH> George^Deka: add both sources in the sources.list
<ChrisH> George^Deka: then set APT::Default-Release "warty" in the apt.conf
<ChrisH> George^Deka: finally run "apt-get -t hoary install firefox"
<ChrisH> George^Deka: you may also use pinning... but this one is more secure against misconfigurations
<George^Deka> thanks ChrisH
<George^Deka> i have an apt.conf.d that it ?
<sivang> ChrisH : does it matter the order of the sources you put into the list?
<ChrisH> sivang: nope... if you are not pinning or setting a default release apt will always use the newest version
<ChrisH> sivang: you can find out with "apt-cache policy mozilla" for example
<sivang> wow cool
<George^Deka> ChrisH: i have an apt.conf.d that it ?
<ChrisH> George^Deka: no... just create the /etc/apt/apt.conf if it's not there
<sivang> yes you need to create the apt.conf file
<George^Deka> thanks, not got some syntax error, extra jargon at end of file - saved it as unicode
<George^Deka> fixed just needed a ;
<ChrisH> :)
<lulu> plovs_work: ping
<lulu> Que: I've just had Diogo ask where the Portugese Documentation has gone....https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseDocumentation. I'm a newbie at Zwiki - in recent changes, it looks as if it wasn't deleted.
<lulu> could someone with more knowledge advise please?
<sm-reading> hi lulu.. he deleted it, an hour ago
<lulu> sm-reading: where did you find that :o)
<lulu> I saw he added DocsParaProgramadores  NEW   
<sm-reading> I'm subscribed to the wiki; I filtered my ubuntu-doc mail folder by "portuguese" :)
<falco> it's a translation for DevelopersDocumentation
<sm-reading> you can also check http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/recycle_bin/folder_contents
<sm-reading> thirdly, you could look in the ZMI undo tab for the folder
<falco> it's there
* sm-reading has solutions
<lulu> but not associated to the FrontPage anymore?
<falco> how may it went there?
<sm-reading> if he had renamed the page, the FrontPage link would have been updated
<falco> it seems to me that not
<sm-reading> or if he had entered the new name as "replacement" in the delete form, the link would have been updated
<sm-reading> but he just deleted it, so FrontPage needs to be updated manually
<falco> there is no replacement
<falco> it's a mistake
<falco> it should be put back
<sm-reading> lulu, if you're logged in as manager you can click undo, I think you'll see the delete
<sm-reading> that's the easiest way to undo
<sm-reading> otherwise, copy from recycle_bin and paste back into /wiki
<lulu> sm-reading: and falco:  ahh ok....I think Diogo needs to learn too. I'll copy this and reply to his email.
<lulu> thanks guys, for your help.
<lulu> :o)
<sm-reading> np
<sm-reading> lulu: nb you wrote "in recent changes, it looks as if it wasn't deleted." - after being deleted, it shouldn't appear in rc and didn't for me - if you saw it, probably a caching glitch
<lulu> sm-reading: correct - I didn't see it in recent changes. thanks :o)
<lulu> sm-reading: why is it that deletions aren't shown?
<sm-reading> ah, you expected to see it
<sm-reading> our RC implementation isn't that smart
<lulu> sm-reading: yup - as it's a change :o)
<lulu> ahh...wiki wish list?
<sm-reading> yes, I think it's there already
<sm-reading> in the wishlist
<lulu> thank you! :o)
<falco> sm: so to recover the page should it be reparented?
<falco> I'm not used to this wiki
<falco> it seems a bit alien
<sm> no, reparenting isn't involved here
<falco> so what should be made?
<sm> falco: to undelete a page, it must be moved out of the recycle_bin subfolder
<falco> how?
<sm> I don't know if you (a member) have permission for that
<sm> can you see the recycle bin (url above ?) do you see a copy button ?
<falco> I don't see a copu button
<sm> ok.. l will do it, one sec
<falco> *copy
<sm> done
<sm> were you logged in ?
<falco> yes
<sm> strange that I can.. I'm logged in as an ordinary member afaik
<falco> maybe I'm just looking in the rong place...
<falco> let me check again
<falco> no
<falco> I can't see it
<falco> I think that maybe there're to many restrictions in the wiki
<lulu> night guys  :o)
<falco> or maybe I'm just to used to other simpler wikis
<sm> falco: undelete is generally a manager feature
<plovs> hi all
<sm> not really a priority for normal users - if you delete, it's assumed you meant to
<sm> hi plovs
<enrico> Hello everyone.  Did you get any mail today from ubuntu-doc?  I haven't, and I know there should be at least one reply to a message of mine that should have gotten through
<ChrisH> enrico: Yes, Nick Loeve has posted today. But it's matter of time zones.
<sivang> Are we plannign the meeting?
<sivang> (hi all)
<enrico> Hi!
<enrico> ChrisH: only that message, then?
<ChrisH> sivang: [hi]  I haven't sent in a time. But I have some meetings during the week that are very dynamic. So I can only see it the time is okay.
<ChrisH> enrico: think so
<enrico> ChrisH: ok, thanks
<sivang> any time chosen already?
* sivang off the the meeting page
<sivang> ok, do we have a majority on a specific time?
<enrico> I posted in the list about the times not really fitting together, and I had no answer except from plovs telling that he prefers tuesdays or fridays
<enrico> I'm worried that people didn't understand my masterpiece of ascii-art timeline intersection graph...
<ChrisH> enrico: I did. :)
* enrico feels relieved :)
<sivang> I'm also for fridays,
<sivang> 16:00 utc
<sivang> or bit earlier
<sivang> ChrisH : hi 
<enrico> 16:00utc... darn
<enrico> sivang: did you see my wonderful ascii-art mail? :)
<ChrisH> btw... what is SABDFL an abbreviation for?
<sivang> enrico : not yet :( I seem to not get it from my imap server..lemme check
<sivang> ChrisH : Self Appointed Benovelent Dictator For Life
<sivang> :)
<sivang> or so the rumors say
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: that's the official and confirmed expansion
<sivang> enrico : really? since when? :)
<ChrisH> sivang: uuuh, huh... wtf is "benovelent"?
<enrico> Since one of mako's Traffics that mentioned it :)
<enrico> !dict benevolent
<enrico> Oh, no bot
<sivang> supposed to be?
<sivang> (bot)
<enrico> Having a disposition to do good; possessing or manifesting
<enrico>      love to mankind, and a desire to promote their prosperity and
<enrico>      happiness; disposed to give to good objects; kind;
<enrico>      charitable.
<enrico> sivang: some IRC channels have an IRC robot that replies to commands like that one
<enrico> They may be handy
<sivang> dpkg is amazing
<sivang> I once talked hebrew into it,
<sivang> it answered meaningfully :)
<sivang> But then some people over at #debian told me that is' feeding off google in some intellegent way..
<enrico> My acronym expansion finder didn't find anything for "sabdfl", though.  It's a bit too long for its database
<enrico> Oh, that's smart!
<sivang> do you think dpkg and the other bots are written in lisp?
<enrico> sivang: dunno
<enrico> I know of supybot, which is written in python
<sivang> ah python....that snake again
<sivang> :)
<enrico> ChrisH: my acronym generator found an expansion for "Chris"
<enrico> "Che ha ricercato il Signore"  (he who looked for God), phrase found in the bible
<enrico> "Che ha risuscitato il Signore"  (he who resurrecred God), phrase found in the bible
<sivang> enrico : The ASCII art got scrambled..
<sivang> enrico : using thunderbird
<enrico> sivang: darn!
<sivang> yes
<enrico> sivang: try a fixed-width font..
<ChrisH> Hehe... what about "he who doesn't believe in god?". :)
<enrico> ChrisH: oh, you can make "Che ha rinnegato il Signore": he who denied God
* enrico loves his acrony finder
<ChrisH> Nice... :)
<enrico> 18 lines of perl including comments and empty lines
<ChrisH> enrico: I remember I saw such a bullshit acronym generator on the web once.
<enrico> ChrisH: Oh, I have something super
<enrico> ChrisH: http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/polygen_1.0.6.orig.tar.gz
<enrico> I uploaded it to unstable today
<enrico> You can download it and build the package (dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot)
<enrico> Or, I can give you a web link
<ChrisH> enrico: sounds like an eliza generator.
<enrico> http://polygen.org/web/Payoff_II.522.0.html for M$-style payoffs
<enrico> Unfortunately, the site is fully in italian
<enrico> They had an English version, but they removed it
<ChrisH> Be twice?
<ChrisH> Don't move jungle?
<ChrisH> *lol*
<sivang> enrico : what is that?
<enrico> They're going to add it again after the package hits unstable, I bet :)
<enrico> sivang: the reverse of bison: you give it an EBNF grammar, and it generates randomly an instance of the language
<sivang> wow
<enrico> We can have a generator of FAQs:
<enrico> Do you know how might I insert the 3D proxy to a login?
<enrico> You should send the software of the SMTP provider of a cache over the tool but from Windows 9.4 or from the file inside Mac you should never get access over a parallel connection to turn off a serial icon.
<enrico> Man, do you know how to delete from the kernel of the BIOS mousepad to a shell?
<enrico> You should never download the tool to insert in a RO processor.
<enrico> and so on... :)
* sivang lost enrico
<ChrisH> Cool. Make it subversion-capable and let's seize working on the book. It can do it alone. :)
* ChrisH always wanted a 3D proxy
<enrico> sivang: basically, it's a really advanced program that you can use to generate bullshit :)
<sivang> what's a 3d proxy?
<ChrisH> enrico: does it have a "microsoft bashes linux" or "sco sues torvalds" mode? Might be funny.
<enrico> sivang: an automatically generated tecno-like silly thing
<sivang> bison does th reverse? it takes the grammer and checks for valid phrases...
<ChrisH> sivang: The output does not claim to make sense. It's just auto-bullshit.
<enrico> ChrisH: it has various grammars, and it's farily easy to write a new one
<enrico> I wrote a generator of social science papers:
<enrico> Coddling a systematization: the prominent design to the tyrannical congress of congress.
<enrico> The blanching of an accompanying: the operative disposition to the sound arrival of design.
<enrico> A firm acting of scheme? Which future?
<enrico> And so on :)
<ChrisH> sivang: A grammar is used to define a language. If you want to parse a language you need a parser (like "bison"). The other way round you can have a program that wildly creates syntactically (not semantically = meaningful) sentences.
<sivang> ChrisH : so I take the grammer which I normally feed into bison, and let a generator create random sentences that adhere that grammer rules?
<enrico> sivang: yes, but it doesn't have the same input syntax as bison
<enrico> sivang: it has an input syntax which is designed for support generating text, to control the probabilities of the different parts of the generated text and so on
<sivang> enrico : EBNF <== is this how the bison grammer called? (or a general grammer for specifying ruls)
<enrico> sivang: Extended Backus Naur Format
<enrico> sivang: it's those grammars like:
<enrico> animal := warthogs, hedgehog, groundhog
<sivang> yes
<sivang> Now I recall
<enrico> adjective := warty, hoary, grumpy
<enrico> ubuntu := adjective animal
<sivang> ah actually it looks diffenet
<sivang> sec.
<enrico> (In polygen you can easily do things like matching the initials, thuogh :)
<sivang> this is the lexical defitiontions?
<enrico> sivang: the syntax definition
<enrico> Maybe also the lexical definition, but I haven't used that term
<sivang> this is what I worked with, this is fed into bison:
<sivang> %
<sivang> assignment : NAME '=' assignment
<sivang>            | NAME '=' exp
<sivang>            ;
<sivang> exp        : exp '+' exp
<sivang>            | exp '-' exp
<sivang>            | exp '*' exp
<sivang>            | exp '/' exp
<sivang>            | '-' exp     %prec UMINUS
<sivang>            | NAME
<sivang> (or at least, I let bison process this)
<enrico> Yes, polygen takes something similar
<sivang> ok
<enrico> You would also need to tell what is an exp and all the possible instances of NAME
<sivang> yes
<sivang> and give a default value
<enrico> default value?
<sivang> if it doesn't match anything 
<enrico> Oh, it doesn't need to match: it just generates random text that fits in that grammar
<enrico> So with that grammar you'd run it once and it'd tell you:
<enrico> 3+5*1--3
<enrico> You run it another time and it'd tell you:
<sivang> Ah I see, cool :)
<enrico> pippo=2*9
<enrico> and so on :)
<ChrisH> Does anyone know where the CD creator in Nautilus places the files? it seems to be broken here.
<sivang> ChrisH : you need to tell it something, lemme check
<ChrisH> sivang: I cancelled the creation of a CD/DVD an now I have an "unnamed folder" that cannot be renamed, removed or anything...
<ChrisH> Now I don't even have a context menu. Something seems to be broken with it.
<sivang> ChrisH : you
<sivang> 've ALT+F2 : "nautilus-cd-creator" ?
<sivang> and then chose "Open CD/DVD creatore" ?
<enrico> ChrisH: else, install xdiskusage
<enrico> ChrisH: or filelight
<ChrisH> sivang: I know how to start it. But where does it collect the files to be burnt?
<enrico> They tell you where disk space is consumed
<sivang> ChrisH : it's supposed to be somewhere under you .gnome2 folder
<enrico> I particularly like xdiskusage, as it's really tiny
<sivang> very very nice
<sivang> enrico : xdiskusage
<ChrisH> can't find it :(
<enrico> filelight is much cooler, thuogh (but it uses kde)
<enrico> ChrisH: can't find xdiskusage or the Nautilus file?
<ChrisH> enrico: the place where the nautilus-cd-burner places the files... because I cannot use it any more
<enrico> ChrisH: you can also use "find ~ -mmin 60" to see the files modified in the last hour
<sivang> ChrisH : it's symlinks.. erghgh
<sivang> it doesn not create real file IMHO
<ChrisH> "killall nautilus" and it works again... weird
<ChrisH> sivang: looks like it just create symlinks or something like that
<sivang> ChrisH : ah! that's a know bug I think
<sivang> if not someone should enter it to the bugzilla,
<sivang> I got so used to killall nautils to show files I copied into the system
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> enrico: find didn't find anything :)
<enrico> ChrisH: are you sure that what you're looking for actually exists?
<enrico> You can also find in /var
<ChrisH> enrico: it's probably there...
<ChrisH> enrico: perhaps it's just collecting file names in RAM and reading them directly during the iso mastering... no idea
<ChrisH> Hell! The CD creator took up 500 MB of RAM and died!
<__daniel> hai
<enrico> ChrisH: RAM??
<__daniel> does anyone of you have problems logging into the wiki, too?
<enrico> That's crazy
<enrico> __daniel: I'm trying
<sivang> ChrisH : nautilus is still nowhere stable
<enrico> __daniel: the server has terminated sending data
<__daniel> thanks enrico
<__daniel> enrico: damn :-(
<__daniel> enrico: just wanted to add a cool idea to it
<ChrisH> sivang: Indeed. I should have stayed on KDE.
<enrico> __daniel: post it to the list :)
<__daniel> enrico: i was told to put it on the wiki first :-)
<enrico> __daniel: but since that failed, go for the second option ;)
<__daniel> enrico: i'll have to wait... it seems
<sivang> ChrisH : still, I don't think I will go back to KDE
<sivang> GNOME is far more inntuutive and automagical to me then KDE, especially in simple everyday tasks
<sivang> __daniel : what's the idea? :)
<ChrisH> sivang: somehow when I logged in a week ago the top panel disappeared. I needed to recreate it. Nothing was in there. When I added the menu I got two menus. And now it takes up to a minute before the top bar shows up.
<__daniel> sivang: suggest thesises and projects for students to enhance ubuntu :-)
<ChrisH> sivang: With Gnome it feels like I need to remove my .gnome2* stuff every week to be stable :(
<__daniel> sivang: sabdfl liked it :-)
<sivang> __daniel : very nice ! can non students participate? :)
<__daniel> sivang: of course! :-)
<sivang> ChrisH : Strange, I didn't bump into nothing like that, the worse I get, a decent killall or login in out fixes it..
<__daniel> sivang: i was in a (constitutive) meeting of a unix working group on my university today and most would like to help out and do their thesis about it, but wouldn't know where to start, so i had the idea
<__daniel> sivang: they'd devote 2*6 months of time :-)
<enrico> Thesises are super-powerful things!
<__daniel> :-)
<__daniel> didnt know if the plural of thesis would even exist :-)
<enrico> So it'd be like a service to tell people what they could do?
<sivang> __daniel : I've always wanted to get in uni, still hasn't yet :)
<__daniel> or make sure they know , they COULD do a change :-)
<sivang> __daniel : that's very nice, how can someone not a student help out?
<__daniel> sivang: they could check that site too
<__daniel> i'm no ubuntu official, so i dont know
<__daniel> sivang: i just started my uni project on something i always wanted
<sivang> __daniel : what is it? :)
<__daniel> sivang: a library for applications to make it possible to save user preferences on a server
<sivang> __daniel : users preferences in the library?
<__daniel> to not having to copy config files around
<__daniel> if i finished it, apps can save/load the user preferences to/from the server
<__daniel> :-)
* enrico would love __daniel
<sivang> Oh nice
<__daniel> it's just an idea... don't know if ANYONE would implement in their app :-)
<__daniel> coolest thing would be to hack up gconf to use it ;-)
<__daniel> but that's not part of the thesis ;-)
<__daniel> i'm glad my professor liked the idea
<sivang> something liek domain controller? Please correct me if I'm wrong, don't redhat uses some kind of std unix tool to move around (roam) user profiels in a fedora session?
<__daniel> well i didnt want to move files around or sniff on registry changes
<__daniel> so now, it's just the library you add to your project and it'll work on linux/windows/... (when it's finished ;-))
<__daniel> well that's the general idea... ;-)
<sivang> wow nice
<sivang> hi plovs
<__daniel> hai plovs
<enrico> hi plovs
<__daniel> the ubuntu.com webserver guy isnt here, is he/she? :-)
<enrico> __daniel: no, but you can tell me and I can try and ask in #ubuntu-devel
<enrico> (or you can ask in #ubuntu-devel if you are into that channel)
<__daniel> i asked if some of them also had the problem, but they didn't respond
<__daniel> enrico: but maybe they'll listen to you ;-)
<enrico> __daniel: I tried: let's see what happen
<sivang> ah reply!
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> Hi sivang!
<sivang> Hey Hoodster! Whassup dude?
<__daniel> :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-05
<bshumate> hello all
<bshumate> anyone using LyX for DockBook authoring at all?
<Burgwork> not that I know of
<Burgwork> how the heck do I get grep to search for a bang and not a bitwise not
<bshumate> maybe a better question is...what do folks here use as an editor typically? ;-)
<Burgwork> no idea what others use
<Burgwork> I use gedit and bluefish
<bshumate> thanks! i'll check em out.
<dabaR> Burgwork: I have thought abbout what you said whern I showed you my proc. doc. and I think your answer was bad if you totally discarded my doc. Even though synaptic is going out in like, 5 months, it is still in, and many people could benefit from my well written doc.
<dabaR> :)
<rob1> dang, mdke is away..
<jsgotangco> why?
<jsgotangco> rob1: why are you using gmail
<jsgotangco> i have to approve your posts then
<rob1> ?
<rob1> is this a recent change to the list?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> your gmail account obviously isn't subscribed
<rob1> My header says rob1 at ubuntu dot com, but yes its comming from the gmail servers
<jsgotangco> nvm its only one email anyway
<rob1> does the list block email with a from header that isn't the same domain as the server?
<mdke> rob1, it depends on the header
<mdke> mine from mdke@ubuntu.com works alright
<mdke> dabaR, you should post to the mailing list, rather than just showing things to one person
<mdke> rob1, also, your emails are really hard to reply to! when I reply in evolution, the quotes don't wrap...
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> especially the one you use at work
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> that really borks the thread...
* mdke nods
<mdke> i can't believe that it is outlook express's fault: it must have the technology to maintain threads
<mdke> morning dholbach 
<dholbach> hellas
<mdke> rob1, around?
<poningru> question do we have a quick howto regarding installation of firefox 1.5?
<poningru> cause I guess I can write it up
<mdke> poningru, i don't believe we do, maybe you can have a search on the wiki and see what is there
<poningru> well where on the forums do we post such things?
<poningru> cause nothing came up on the wiki
<poningru> I was thinking about writing one not sure where to do so
<mdke> poningru, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion
<poningru> yeah nm
* poningru looks like an idiot
<mdke> :)
<mdke> the wiki is a bit difficult to find stuff in by searching
<poningru> yeah
<mdke> poningru, if you like you can figure out what difference there is between the various firefox pages on the wiki, and integrate them in some way :)
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingFirefox <-- appears to be completely superfluous
<poningru> hmm ok
<mdke> poningru, up to you obviously :) You can check to see if the page on install firefox 1.5 is up to date too, if you like
<mdke> and obviously, improve the page if you don't like it :)
<poningru> yeah improved the firefoxnewversion
<poningru> I think the intsalling firefox page should be nominated for deletion
<poningru> installing*
<poningru> can you take a look at that page and see if it looks good?
<mdke> ok, I will delete it later on after checking that it has no links and such
<mdke> sure
<mdke> yeah the FirefoxNewVersion page looks very nice
<mdke> very clear
<poningru> are you running 1.0.7 can you check something really quick?
<mdke> yes I have it
<poningru> in your profile folder
<mdke> although I use epiphany now
<poningru> oh hehe
<poningru> well in firefox can you try to add a search plugin?
<mdke> sure tell me what to do
<mdke> I've deleted InstallingFirefox
<poningru> https://addons.mozilla.org/search-engines.php
<poningru> cool
<poningru> add any one of them
<mdke> ok done
<mdke> i clicked on ESPN
<poningru> ok make sure its installed
<poningru> in the search bar
<poningru> now go to the profile folder and see if there is a searchplugin
<poningru> it should be a folder named searchplugins
<mdke> it's in a folder named "search"
<poningru> ah ok
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/.mozilla/firefox/h48215rp.default/search$ ls
<mdke> espn.png  espn.src  google.src  MSN.png  MSN.src  wikipedia.png  wikipedia.src
<poningru> hmm that has to be fixed
<poningru> hmm I think we should just copy the entire profile folder
<dholbach> wow, you guys did magic improvements to the docs
<dholbach> the deb is 2,3MB now ;)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> sounds bad
<dholbach> oh, why that?
<mdke> dholbach, the deb I built yesterday was 278K
<dholbach> serverguide, desktopguide and ubuntu/menu are new
<dholbach> ubuntu/menus rather
<mdke> lemme try building again
<dholbach> i can give you the output of the contents of the package, would that help?
<mdke> sure, if you like
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> i'm just building another package on our server
<dholbach> righto
<mdke> i haven't added anything since yesterday...
<mdke> dholbach, it's 296K
<dholbach> oh right... extracted it's 2,3MB
* mdke slaps himself
<mdke> sorry
<dholbach> It was Installed-Size, sorry
<dholbach> not Size :)
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/
<dholbach> are you happy with all the contents now?
<mdke> :)
<mdke> yep
<dholbach> i will have a brief look
<dholbach> and see if it blows everything away
<mdke> lol
<dholbach> if not, we'll get it in and have a party
<mdke> it's fine
<dholbach> party at my place - free beer! see you! :)
<mdke> the only bug is those html errors on scrollkeeper-rebuild that you reported
* mdke coughs
<mdke> the only OBVIOUS bug
<dholbach> i see ;)
<mdke> but the html validates, more or less, so I think it is ok
<dholbach> about ubuntu looks nice
<dholbach> yelp doesnt crash yet... let's have a look at the guides
<dholbach> why do we have them as html and xml?
<mdke> so that we can decide what is the best way
<dholbach> i see
<dholbach> will you get an announcement out for testing/judging about this?
<mdke> yeah, a thread is open on the mailing list
<mdke> i really wanted to see whether html will work ok in yelp
<dholbach> cool, make sure you're heard everywhere
<mdke> yes, absolutely
<mdke> i want to talk to seb and jdub about it 
<dholbach> you guys rock
<mdke> i favour html myself, due to the fact that it loads 300 times faster, and looks nicer (or will do)
* dholbach hugs the doc team
<mdke> but we need to ensure that the translations will work
* mdke hugs back
<dholbach> and the packaging guide too
<dholbach> ROCK
<dholbach> although it could be de-crack-ed a bit :)
<dholbach> but NICE
<dholbach> i'm quite happy
<mdke> cool
<dholbach> i will build the package in pbuilder and see if that works too
<dholbach> then upload it
<mdke> great
<mdke> once it's uploaded, I'll start the html or xml war
* dholbach dances the doc dance
<mdke> heh
<dholbach> if you don't mind, i do another changelog entry (but the others will appear on dapper-changes too), to explain what was removed and what was added
<dholbach> so we don't get too much bug reports for missing translations and stuff
<dholbach> makes sense?
<mdke> dholbach, ok, but isn't that in the changelog already?
<dholbach> oh you added that already?
<mdke> think so
<dholbach> ok it is
<mdke>   * Removed translations (translation won't start until string freeze)
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> right
<dholbach> mdke: could you talk to elmo, so you get whitelisted for uploads?
<dholbach> meaning, you'll get a mail if the package is accepted or not
<mdke> you can't upload it?
<mdke> oh it takes it from the changelog?
<dholbach> yeah, i will sign and upload it
<dholbach> exactly
<mdke> sure i'll talk to him
<dholbach> or i will add a changelog entry
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> just write a signed mail, telling him, that you want to be whitelisted for uploads (i will sponsor them)
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> ok i'll cc it to you
<mdke> but my key is not in trusted
<dholbach> i think that doesnt mind for whitelisting
<mdke> ok
<dholbach> it's just that katie sends you a mail for every upload
<dholbach> and your name appears on dapper-changes *YAY, FAME FACTOR!*
<mdke> yeah bonus
<dholbach> pbuilder is building
<mdke> dholbach, mailed
<dholbach> super
<Burgwork> mdke, outlook is probably hitched to an exchange server that, becuase rob works for aussie dod, is classifying the emails
* mdke slaps outlook
<jjesse> watch out it will slap back
<jjesse> i use outlook w/ exchange, what is classifying thme is not outlook, but the spam filter they are using w/ exchange
<mdke> how come my client doesn't wrap his mail in the quoted text?
<mdke> and what is breaking the threads?
<mdke> it must be something to do with microsoft, surely
<dholbach> still building :)
<jjesse> what client are u using mdke?
<mdke> jjesse, evolution
<jjesse> hmm outlook is allowing me to view his emails in the thread view and when i reply to one of his emails it quotes the text normally
<mdke> ebil
<Burgwork> mdke, I don't blame exchange. I blame the setup that DoD put on their exchange servers
<mdke> i've noticed the serverguide and desktopguide html doesn't have a doctype and thus fails validation
<mdke> if we use the xhtml stylesheets, this doesn't happen
<mdke> does anyone know (a) how to make html work, or (b) if there is any reason not to use the xhtml stylesheets?
* mdke has the new dapper ubuntu-docs package :)
<LaserJock> cool
* Burgwork feels like a lazy bum. He has done nothing for docs recently
<mdke> Burgwork, I will be initiating the html vs xml war again soon :)
<Burgwork> mdke, oh joy
* Burgwork is about to initiate the mediawiki vs moin war with a blog post tongiht
<mdke> :)
<mdke> LOL
<mdke> at least my war is winnable
<Burgwork> my reasoning will be very clear
<Burgwork> it will not be "MEDIAWIKI SI BETTER SUXORS"
<mdke> will it be "mediawiki will soon be written in python"?
<Burgwork> nope
<Burgwork> I wish
<mdke> surely it can't win then
<Burgwork> but I can see more of mediawiki being written in c#
<mdke> well I think the html way will succeed
<mdke> pending a discussion with seb about the ramifications
<LaserJock> mdke: I just installed ubuntu-docs_5.11-3_all.deb on Breezy and now I don't have anything in System->Help
<mdke> heh
<mdke> how odd
<mdke> lemme try that
<LaserJock> it's a fresh install so maybe I missed something
<mdke> is there any reason why it should work?
<mdke> oh, works here
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/ubuntu-docs.png
<mdke> they work too
<LaserJock> here's mine: http://www.chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/Screenshot.png
<mdke> try running "sudo scrollkeeper-rebuilddb -q"
<mdke> where did you get the deb btw?
<mdke> if you got it from the dapper repos, maybe there is an issue with that
<LaserJock> mdke: I got it from doc.ubuntu.com/debs it was working yesterday
<LaserJock> but I did a fresh install today
<mdke> odd indeed
<LaserJock> I got a whole bunch of errors when I did sudo scrollkeeper-rebuilddb -q
<dholbach> good night doc-people - first package in for dapper - well done!
<mdke> night night
<dholbach> keep up the celebrations
<mdke> LaserJock, all involving html validation problems?
<mdke> dholbach, thanks to you
<dholbach> *YOU*
<dholbach> :)
<mdke> no, you!
<mdke> etc
<dholbach> ;)
<LaserJock> "Opening and ending tag mismatch", "Input is not proper UTF-8", and "Premature end of data" in various places
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> that's normal
<LaserJock> all in serverguide/C/index.html and desktopguide/C/index.html
<mdke> i should have a fix for that tomorrow
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I will reboot into dapper and see if it is different.
<mdke> k
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-06
<LaserJock> mdke: well it works fine in dapper
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ubuntu docs are not really a target for backporting, so I wouldn't worry abut it
<LaserJock> Burgwork: np, I was just booted into breezy and wanted to see the new stuff
<Burgwork> LaserJock, true
<Burgwork> mdke_, do you have connection issues or are you at home now?
<mdke_> Burgwork, both
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> I am tired and bored of work right now
<mdke_> i always irc from my home server, so the connection is a bit dodgy
<mdke_> my wifi keeps going down so I reboot the router and it cuts the connection
<Burgwork> I am glad I live in a country with great bandwidth
<mdke_> heh
<mdke_> me too, but I need to take advantage by paying for some
<mdke_> it's the damn router that is the main problem though
* mdke_ kicks
<Burgwork> even the neighbours stolen bandwidth is good
<mdke_> heh
<mdke_> all my neighbours have closed APs
<Burgwork> my neighbours aren't so smart
<mdke_> :)
<Burgwork> mediawiki 1.6 is going to get a WYSIWYG editor
<mdke> moin 1.6 will be able to turn water into wine
<mdke> actually that's a bit blasphemous
<mdke> moin 1.6 will be able to turn lead into gold
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> moin is wonderful is some cases and mediawiki in others
<mdke> nah, nah
<mdke> that's far too conciliatory
<Burgwork> developers need moin, we need mediawiki
<Burgwork> becuase they target different audiences and make different assumptions
<mdke> moin is good stuff
<Burgwork> for developers
<mdke> i'm not a developer
<Burgwork> exactly
<mdke> and I like moin
<Burgwork> moin makes the assumption that those editing the wiki have another method of communicatin
<Burgwork> an assumption which turns out to be wrong when you are dealing with documentation in Ubuntu
<Burgwork> but perfectly correct for the developers of Ubuntu
<Burgwork> mdke, would you not agree?
<mdke> i don't think so
<mdke> Burgwork, what do you mean by "another method of communication"
<Burgwork> the talk pages the mediawiki has by default
<Burgwork> and the functionality built around them
<Burgwork> and yes moin can do *some* of that
<mdke> I don't know mediawiki, but how does talk pages help for dealing with documentation
<Burgwork> there is a cool thing where you can allow anonymous editing on talk pages but lock the actual article itself
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> seems sensible
<Burgwork> as well as when you post a note to a users talk page on mediawiki, it tells them about it
<mdke> seems sensible too
<Burgwork> moin could have those things, but doesn't
<Burgwork> moin also makes the assumption that content is more important than presentation
<Burgwork> mediawiki assumes they are equal
<Burgwork> again, an assumptoin that works for developers but not for documentation
<Burgwork> a small example of this is the table of contents
<Burgwork> needs to be manually created on moin but not on mediawiki
<mdke> these are all bugs in moin IMHO
<Burgwork> yes, but when will they be fixed?
<mdke> when someone reports them
<mdke> you've done that I suppose
<mdke> so, dunno
<Burgwork> mediawiki is not perfect either
<Burgwork> we really need a method of publishing the docs
<Burgwork> ie, two sites
<Burgwork> a wiki on doc.u.c that is editable by all
<mdke> mm?
<mdke> ah
<Burgwork> and then the finished stuff on help.u.c that is editable by only us
<mdke> i've talked this over with henrik quite a bit
<Burgwork> but has a talk page that can be edited by anybody
<mdke> he would like that option, but I don't like it much, i'd prefer a wiki on help.u.c editable by all, and stable docs being restricted
<Burgwork> but help is where we drive end users
<Burgwork> we cannot have every joe blow editing them
<Burgwork> by the time a doc hits help.u.c it should be mostly feature complete
<mdke> i would have help.u.c with reliable docs
<mdke> and help.u.c/wiki with community maintained docs
<Burgwork> ugh
<Burgwork> that is too confusing  to the end user, IMHO
<Burgwork> and  their should be no seperation between our docs and "community" docs
<Burgwork> s/their/there
<Burgwork> there should only be drafting docs and published docs
<mdke> well then you'll need to abolish the docteam repository
<mdke> and work only in wiki form
<Burgwork> not really
<Burgwork> but this seperation between online docs and web docs needs to end, in some form
<Burgwork> make that offline docs
<mdke> well you'll have to abolish the distinction between online and offline then I guess
<Burgwork> somewhat
<mdke> abolish the internet!
<mdke> Burgwork, I've uploaded a couple of drawings that me and henrik did when trying to figure out how to implement BetterWikiDocs, you can save them from that wiki page and open the with openoffice
<Burgwork> ok
<mdke> feel free to do one yourself
* Burgwork is on the phone with a publisher
<mdke> ok, --> sleep
<mr4005> Hullo?
<LaserJock> Hi
<mr4005> Setting myself up with the needed software to contribute.  The getting started page says get docbook and subversion.  There are a lot of docbook pakages shown in aptitude.  Which are needed/relevant?  Which should be ignored?
<mr4005> Subversion was easier, the choices are smaller and more decipherable.
<LaserJock> mr4005: I think xsltproc, docbook-xsl, and docbook-defguide are good to start with
<LaserJock> mr4005: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook is where I got that info at. I think that is all I have for docbook stuff
<mr4005> Ah!  xsltproc was not found while searching for docbook.  
<mr4005> << off to read that page more closely
<mr4005> Thanks, LaserJock
<LaserJock> xsltproc is cool because it allows you to turn your Docbook xml into html 
<mr4005> or docbooks into html pages
<Burgwork> night
* rob1 looks in
<Madpilot> hi rob1
<rob1> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> have you seen my email about CD burning in the Desktop Guide?
<rob1> no not yet, evolution is playing funny buggers
<Madpilot> if I'm finding typos and errors in the desktop guide html, should I just start editing, crank out diffs, and send them to the list?
<rob1> the html is automatically generated from the xml, but as for the copy on help.u.c go feel free to edit
<Madpilot> yeah, just realized the html isn't actually in the svn - I'll start plugging away at the xml. 
<Madpilot> OK, I'm confused... what I've got in my svn d/l bears no resemblance to the filenames in use on doc.u.c...
<rob1> thats because it isn't the same
<Madpilot> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch02s03.html <-- where is this file, in the xml versions from svn?
<rob1> no that was generated using xsltproc from the xml
<rob1> everything under /build is generated when you run the makefile
<rob1> (depending on what you want to build)
<Madpilot> ... I think I need to go read some of the DocTeam "how we do things" stuff again, before I look even more clueless :P
<rob1> in xml the desktopguide.xml file in that directory is the main file, which only contains xreferences to the other xml files
<Madpilot> right
<rob1> xml file layout != generated html layout
<Madpilot> rob1: that's why XML makes my head hurt...
<rob1> xml has stylesheets that determine how to break things up
<Madpilot> ah, that Gnomebaker stuff is in common-tasks.xml
<rob1> yep
<Madpilot> gah... I know we've got good reason to use XML, but (X)HTML is just so much **easier**
<rob1> nah, one you get used to xml its just as easy
<rob1> it just has a lot more features that you can use
<rob1> when I say xml, I mean docbook xml
<mdke_> ah, Madpilot, awesome news that you're starting to get into the docs
<mdke_> rob1, you didn't reply to my 10 thousand emails yesterday :(
<Madpilot> mdke_: right now I'm mostly staring at XML and wondering when my eyes will start bleeding ;)
<mdke_> Madpilot, aw it's not as bad as all that!
<Madpilot> not quite
<Madpilot> close, though
<mdke_> you'll get used to it :)
<Madpilot> expect my first few diffs to be total crap :P
<Madpilot> code-wise, that is
<mdke_> Madpilot, the important thing is to use the validation tool in our repo
<mdke_> that way you can check that the doc is ok before doing the diff
<mdke_> Madpilot, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<Madpilot> k, thanks - I'll read that tomorrow - I'm just about to crash for the night
<mdke_> rob1, so what do I do with my working copy of common-tasks.xml
<mdke_> nuke, or commit?
* mdke_ goes to work
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<HrdwrBoB> 21:05 < raphink> I upgraded my dapper and now it doesn't recognize my sound card anymore :S
<HrdwrBoB> er
<HrdwrBoB> ... whoops
<mhz> hi all
<mhz> I see this http://wiki.edubuntu.org/CorporateUbuntu
<mhz> and the first line  mention 'corporate environment by Naaman Campbell.'
<mhz> just to have a clear policy in my head... do we want this 'by author' things?
<mdke_> no we don't. But we have not yet established the licence policy on the wiki
<mhz> so, i dont edit it?
<mdke_> no
<mhz> ok
<mdke_> in any case, the guide doesn't appear to have been written
<mhz> would be ok if i create a CategoryAuthor ?
<mdke_> ?
<mhz> so we can easily get those edited after policy has been up
<mdke_> ok...
<mdke_> actually perhaps that is a bad idea
<mhz> ?
<mdke_> we will probably have to give people a chance to remove documents which they are not happy with licensing under a "no attribution" licence policy
<mhz> ooooh, good point
<mhz> and how do you think we'll inform those people about the wiki policy?
<mhz> I have noticed many wiki page creators are not subscribed to pages :D
<mdke_> i don't know
<mhz> ok
<mhz> so, I'll make my own subpage listing those pages i have found that include the "by author" thing. once we set the policy, (when?) it'll be a little easier to inform them, at least manually.
<mpt> "... setting up Ubuntu for use ... by Naaman Campbell"
<mpt> I might want to set up Ubuntu for use by someone else...
<mdke_> heh
<mhz> he
<mpt> that doc is on the wrong wiki anyway
<mpt> so that's two excuses for nuking the byline
<mdke_> ?
<mdke_> mpt, they are the same wiki with a different address, mhz just posted that link because he is an edu kinda guy
<mpt> the same wiki with a different address?
* mpt 's head hurts
<mdke_> i mean
<mhz> they are sharing /data so we should see same pages
<mdke_> wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com have the same pages
<mhz> yes BUT..
<mhz> one is working https and the other only http
<mdke_> really?
<mhz> :(
<mdke_> how do you authenticate?
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> I have just found out that I have to login in www.ubuntu.org
<mhz> so I get access to all pages
<mdke_> you mean edubuntu.org
<mhz> so, now that I loged in via edubuntu, I  can't reach ubuntu pages duh!
<mhz> nop. 
<mpt> www.ubuntu.org isn't computer-related :-)
<mdke_> quite
* mhz will logout to show
<mhz> http://www.ubuntu.com/  --> use wiki tab https://wiki.ubuntu.com/   -->   then login link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserPreferences
<mhz> and now, I can see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CorporateUbuntu
<mhz> notice the diff URL but same content
<mhz> :)
<mhz> however, I had first loged in via www.edubuntu.org, I could have not reached https:// urls
<mhz> however, I would have seen same exact contents
<mhz> now, the question is... Should we consider that a bug? or just a nonsense way to get contents ?
* mdke_ shrugs
* mdke hussles rob1 
<Burgwork> how do I get grep to only show me each match once?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: not sure, I would pipe to sort and then uniq but maybe I should read the grep man page
<LaserJock> or is that even what you are looking for ?
<Burgwork> uniq did what I was looking for
<Burgwork> grr, bloody sort
<Burgwork> n3
<Burgwork> n3129
<Burgwork> it does stupid crap like that ^
<LaserJock> I have a couple of questions about the server guide
<LaserJock> In the last paragraph of the preface it talks about using vim as the text editor
<LaserJock> I mentions sudo, but it capitalizes it to "Sudo". That isn't right is it?
<LaserJock> also it says "Its recommended that you also run
<LaserJock>  ..." but shouldn't that be "It's" ?
<LaserJock> or I guess it should be "It is" to eliminate the contraction
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-07
<mdke__> LaserJock, you are probably right about that thing in the serverguide, but it is such early days yet, that sort of thing will be rather common
<LaserJock> mdke__: I didn't check but do the other docs have the same preface?
<mdke__> LaserJock, i don't think so, although they probably should
<LaserJock> mdke__: I really like the conventions part. I am putting it in the packaging guide. The only thing is I don't like how at the beginning is calls the notes and stuff "admonitions"
<LaserJock> admonitions sound kinda stern or negative
<mdke__> i know what you mean
<mdke__> LaserJock, i think we should have common prefaces for the docs
<LaserJock> I agree, since the conventions should be the same
<LaserJock> and the Contributing and Feedback section would be good too
<mdke__> good point
<mdke__> also probably "getting help"
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> what about if there happended to be doc specific conventions? Could those be handled?
<mdke__> yes, by not using the common one
<mdke__> what do you have in mind?
<mdke__> rob1, ping a ling a ling
<LaserJock> mdke__: I just wondered. If a guide had some special conventions above and beyond the common ones
<mdke__> sure, i just couldn't think of what
<LaserJock> mdke__: for instance in the server guide there is the vim part
<mdke__> i believe that the desktopguide has its own for that reason
<mdke__> ah, good point
<mdke__> why would the serverguide use vim...
* mdke__ shakes his head sadly
<LaserJock> I mean, there certainly should be a common convention because we have a common style guide
<LaserJock> mdke__: because it is installed by default ;-)
<mdke__> nano is installed by default too
<mdke__> and it's 20 times easier
<LaserJock> mdke__: sure about that?
<mdke__> pretty sure
<mdke__> it's on all my systems
<LaserJock> on a server install?
<mdke__> i have a minimal install on my home server, nano is there
<mdke__> not a server tho
<mdke__> but the serverguide is not only for server installs
<mdke__> it's for everything
<LaserJock> ok, well then they probably should use nano I guess. I mean vim is universal, but nano is easier
<mdke__> i haven't done a server install so I dunno, if vim is the only editor on all installs, then it would make sense to use that
<mdke__> but nano is much easier
<MichaleR> Those who know vim can work with nano, those who know nano may not know vim.  vim users will seek out vim
<mdke__> those who know neither, will prefer nano ;)
<MichaleR> Yep, if you refer to nano all users are covered and can work
<mdke__> anyhow, we should be giving the user a choice in the conventions section
<mdke__> i don't see a reason to say "use this"
<mdke__> oh yeah i do
<mdke__> i guess the format of the guide throughout is "run command x" rather than "edit file y"
<MichaleR> Yes, those who need the help have it those that don't do the mental substitution and fire up vim
* mdke__ nods
<mdke__> welcome by the way MichaleR 
<MichaleR> thanks
<mdke__> MichaleR, interested in ubuntu documentation?
<MichaleR> A bit, as soon as I fulfill the exercise for the reader between ...
<MichaleR> checking the svn docs out and extracting one of those for editing
<MichaleR> or does one edit directly on the tree they've checked out?
<mdke__> yeah you can edit them directly
<mdke__> MichaleR, sorry, what exercise for the reader?
<MichaleR> You just answered it.
<mdke__> ah ok
<mdke__> MichaleR, any particular docs interest you? are you a kubuntu or a ubuntu person?
<MichaleR> When you check out the repository, do you then have a local subversion repository to check things out of or do you have a doc tree to edit
<MichaleR> ubuntu
<MichaleR> I've a history with networking and I see the server docs are ... sparse
<mdke__> MichaleR, the server doc was only born a week ago ;)
<mdke__> all help much appreciated
<mdke__> now, about your question
<MichaleR> I picked a nice time to show up
<MichaleR> ;)
<mdke__> you check out the repository
<MichaleR> Which I've done
<mdke__> ok cool
<mdke__> you can use "svn up" to update it
<mdke__> and you can make changes in there, and send diff's to the mailing list
<mdke__> the process is described at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
* mdke__ is excited at all the new contributors turning up
<Burgwork> indeed
<MichaleR> Yes, I was reading that and got hung up on the "check out of my local or edit it" step, which you just cleared up.
<Burgwork> they can hide my laziness
<mdke__> :)
<MichaleR> I did want to read the section on openSSH, which was just contributed, but it's not in the serverguide.xml 
<MichaleR> << Also read the style guide to help avoid wrong path
<mdke__> serverguide.xml doesn't have any material i think, just includes to the other files that make up the document
* mdke__ checks
<mdke__> yeah, that's right
<MichaleR> networkapplications in this case
<MichaleR> or network-applications
<mdke__> yes
<mdke__> the openssh bit is quite empty
<mdke__> in fact, entirely empty ;)
<MichaleR> I could start in on DNS and DHCP while I lobby for inclusion of postfix in the MTA section
<mdke__> erm
<mdke__> postfix will be the mta
<mdke__> what is there now?
<MichaleR> Brian Shumate just did something on openSSH according to email list traffic
<mdke__> MichaleR, yeah but he hasn't made a patch for us yet
<MichaleR> exim 
<MichaleR> the debian default MTA
<mdke__> ok well postfix is the Ubuntu default MTA
<mdke__> :)
<MichaleR> One of the likeable things . . . 
<mdke__> i discussed it briefly with bhuvan and we agreed that the guide would use that
<MichaleR> "guide would use that"  that meaning postfix? 
<mdke__> yes
<MichaleR> So I can rush right off for a s/Exim/Postfix/ patch to apply :)
<mdke__> sure
<mdke__> MichaleR, have you had any experience with docbook xml? you find it relatively easy to understand?
<MichaleR> HA!
<MichaleR> That's part of the learning curve.
<mdke__> :)
<MichaleR> But as someone who considers vim an advanced HTML editor I'm not too worried.  There's validation tools to point out the errors also.
<mdke__> MichaleR, don't forget to check your work by using the validate.sh script and building the html.
<mdke__> yep, exactly
<mdke__> that wiki page should be good enough to get you through, especially since you know html
<MichaleR> That part was doing well so far, and it directs the reader to my favorite kind of learning ~"read, see examples, mimic"
<mdke__> mine too
<mdke__> MichaleR, where are you from btw?
<MichaleR> Portland, Oregon
<MichaleR> And yes, I did see Jeff at the meeting earlier this week.
<mdke__> which jeff, and which meeting?
<MichaleR> Though I started using Ubuntu in July
<MichaleR> Jeff Waugh, at the Badger Badger Badger Tour final appearence
<mdke__> ah
<mdke__> good, well welcome aboard
<MichaleR> Someone has already changed exim to postfix in the repository.
<mdke__> ah good
<mdke__> bhuvan i guess
<MichaleR> How often does that get built out to the web site?
<mdke__> every day
<mdke__> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ch04s14.html
<MichaleR> ah, and the wiki page just lists the outline
<mdke__> yeah that's right
<mdke__> that may be out of date
<MichaleR> Not any more.
<mdke__> :)
<MichaleR> What part of the UK are you in?
<mdke__> london
<Burgwork> poor mdke 
* mdke nods
<Burgwork> last time I was in london there were two layers of overcast
<Burgwork> thick heavy overcast
<Burgwork> of course, I had just come from Spain....
* mdke nods
<mdke> who the hell unbanned that diable guy in -devel
<mdke> tragic
<Burgwork> indeed
<Burgwork> he still owns ubuntu-laptop too
<Burgwork> mdke, do you work for canonical?
<mdke> no...
<mdke> why?
<Burgwork> some things others said
<mdke> hmm, tell me all
<Burgwork> sorry, can't
<Burgwork> life is filled with secrets
<Burgwork> but I don't think it involves you getting hired by Canonical
<mdke> true
<mdke> i'm not a big fan of rumours about me tho
<mdke> especially when i don't know what they are
<Burgwork> not rumours, just they way they talked about you
<mdke> well as long as it was a good way :D
<Burgwork> yes it was, don't worry
<mdke> phew
* Burgwork needs to write a bio of himself, in the Ubuntu perspecitive
<mdke> i would have said something if I started working for them
<mpt> Burgwork: As in "Burgwork is the odd human who tries to use me most days"? 
<Burgwork> mpt, little bit longer, with some more details
<Burgwork> think author bio
<mdke> check out bhuvan's website
<mdke> he has an awesome bio
<mdke> he even mentions each teacher at school
<Burgwork> Corey Burger is a member of the Ubuntu Documentation Team, Laptop
<Burgwork> Testing Team and has been involved with Ubuntu since the first
<Burgwork> release. Also active in promoting Ubuntu and Open Source, he has given
<Burgwork> several talks to conferences and Linux User Groups about Ubuntu. His
<Burgwork> day job involves sales for Userful, a multiseat Linux vendor.
<Burgwork> any thoughts?
<mdke> you need the names of the high school teachers
<mpt> haha
<Burgwork> ouch
<Burgwork> seriously, any comments?
<Burgwork> assume that little bit of writing might be appearing in print
<mdke> well you know more than me about you
<mdke> ah, i see
<mdke> sounds fine
<mpt> I'd swap the halves of the first sentence
<mpt> and add an "and" before "Laptop Testing Team"
<mpt> but other than that it's peachy
<mdke> ++
<Burgwork> thanks
<mdke> where is it going?
* mdke senses another secret
<Burgwork> sorry, can't tell you that
<mpt> bwahaha
<mdke> heh
* mdke starts putting 2 and 2 together
<Burgwork> dammit, your supposed to get 4
<mdke> i was already in double figures
<mpt> easy, Burgwork, he's only just started
<mdke> mpt, :(
<mpt> what? :-)
<Burgwork> this little secret will be very cool, once I can tell you what it is
<mdke> is it a job?
<Burgwork> nah, just a contract
<mdke> btw, once you reveal that you have a secret, people will guess until they hit it
<Burgwork> that might be true
<mpt> I have a special strategy to deal with that sort of thing
<mdke> mpt, is it to cover your ears and sing?
<mpt> no, that's what I do when people start talking about Harry Potter plot lines
<mdke> hehe
<mpt> but for anything which could be guessed by a process of elimination, I don't answer any questions at all
<mdke> quite right too
<mpt> and for anything morally palatable where, if it was true for me, I wouldn't want people to know, I refuse to answer even if it's false for me
<mpt> just to provide a little extra cover for the people who it *is* true for
* mdke tries to understand that
* mdke gives up
<mdke> --> sleep
<mpt> E.g. if you ask me if I work for the KGB, I won't tell you, even though it's very unlikely that I do
<Burgwork> night mdke 
<mpt> night mdke
<MichaleR> g'night and thanks for the introductions
<Burgwork> mpt, where is the world are you now?
<Burgwork> salut jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<jsgotangco> yo dude
<jsgotangco> i'm in seoul
<jsgotangco> i'll be speaking in an hour
<mpt> Burgwork, back in Brazil
<rob1> hmm
<Madpilot> ?
<rob1> mdke keeps pinging me but is sleeping when I return from work
<LaserJock> yeah, that's the problem with global communications
<Madpilot> Docbook XML is giving me a headache... four lines of actual writing is enough for the night...
* Madpilot is re-writing the Desktop Guide Common Task's "How to burn CDs" information (slowly)
<rob1> heh
<rob1> sounds good
<Madpilot> Breezy's little popup when you insert a blank CD is great - no need to mention Gnomebaker right away, IMO
<Madpilot> sweet, some of my hacked XML actually works in Yelp...
<rob1> hehe
<rob1> nice
<Madpilot> Docbook is so damned verbose, I'm used to HTML...
<rob1> yeah, once you get used to using the whole word its ok
<Madpilot> hmm... is the "burn photo CD" option actually any different from the "burn data CD" one? Nautilus doesn't seem to act any different...
<rob1> are you running dapper yet?
<Madpilot> no, stock Breezy final
<rob1> I would say it probably isn't
<rob1> but it could be, I've seen burning apps where the photo thing was actually a vcd slide show
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> I'll leave it out, going to mention Serpentine in 20 words or less, though
<rob1> I use nerolinux, for some reason linux doesn't like my dvd burner
<Madpilot> mine works fine (at least for CDs, haven't bothered trying DVDs in in). Nautilus burns great, so does k3b, gnomebaker always crashes on me and produces coasters...
<rob1> the only way I can do it is manually create .isos on the command line, then run burn it manually using growisofs
<mdke> rob1, i've got to go to work now :(
<rob1> dam
<mdke> reply to my emails?
<rob1> sure, which one?
<mdke> any one
<mdke> i've got this working copy of common-tasks.xml hanging around and I don't know whether to commit it
<rob1> I'm gonna miss the meetig, christmas shopping to do
<mdke> ok
<rob1> (because its on saturday morning for me)
<mdke> not much on the agenda anyhow
<mdke> but I'd love feedback on my desktopguide ideas
<rob1> commit your working copy if you want, we can always roll it back if it breaks or whatever
<rob1> then I can check it out
<mdke> rob1, i posted you a link to a build of it
<Madpilot> mdke: I'm engaged in a large re-write of common-tasks.xml right now - maybe you should commit now before I do too much more?
<mdke> okay
<mdke> i wanted to agree an approach with rob
<rob1> maybe I should break it up into more files so people can work on each bit
<Madpilot> it's not a long file now
<rob1> hmm
<mdke> my changes are format based rather than content
<Madpilot> it's going to be a bit longer once I add the Serpentine stuff, but not much longer
<mdke> i just changed the music section as an example of where I wanted to go
<rob1> I haven't looked at it in about two days.. dam christmas parties
<Madpilot> mdke: commit, I'll save my changes locally, and cut'n'paste back in after I svn up
<mdke> alright, doing that now
<rob1> mdke, I'm not totally opposed to your ideas, so commit them and I can add my ideas to it
<Madpilot> OK
<mdke> rob1, ok, done. I'm off to work, let me know how you find that structure
<rob1> mdke, ok 
<mdke> bye
<rob1> cya mdke 
<rob1> man work was torture today, we are in the process of upgrading from nt to xp.. oh the pain, the pain!
<rob1> just getting the three pcs sitting on my desk was painful enough
<rob1> getting them done, that is
<Madpilot> now that XP's installed, you've got to make a working OS out if it - that'll take another half day or so...
<rob1> we have ghost images made by the software guys, but every one we get is broken in some way
<rob1> for some odd reason my home drive isn't mapping properly
<rob1> when I log onto a nt box it works fine however
<Madpilot> fun
<rob1> wall|  <-- head
<Madpilot> hmm... when I'm viewing the svn docs thru Yelp (launched from the command line), none of the contents of <xref linkend="add-applications"/> (or any xref tag) seems to show up - is that normal?
* rob1 checks how well the gameboy adv is doing on ebay
<rob1> yelp doesn't properly support some of the more exotic docbook tags
<rob1> I just run the makefile (make dg-C in /ubuntu) then check the resulting .html files under /build when I want to see the results
<rob1> using firefox
<Madpilot> I'll figure that out later - for now it's enough that the basic text is appearing where I want it...
<rob1> yelp supports olink tags better (so I'm led to beleave) so I'll be changing all the xrefs to olinks soon
<rob1> I've already set up the olink database for the desktop guide, so its ready to go for them
<rob1> although they work a little differently to xrefs
<rob1> bbs
<Madpilot> should someone do a global search/replace for "Add/Remove Applications", given that the menu entry & app is actually just called "Add Applications"?
* Madpilot burns a very strange mix of music, just to test Serpentine...
<rob1> Madpilot, we are still deciding how we will tell the users when to install packages
<Madpilot> fair enough
<rob1> does serpentine only do music cds?
<Madpilot> crap, I can't find the "how to generate an svn diff" stuff on the wiki right now
<Madpilot> serpentine? yes, AFAIK
<rob1> cd to the directory, do svn diff filename.xml > filename.xml.diff
<Madpilot> thnx
<Madpilot> OK, diff done for common-tasks.xml, off to the list in a moment
<rob1> great, I'll apply it for you
<rob1> hmm
<bhuvan> Madpilot, ensure to do 'svn up' before preparing 'svn diff'
<rob1> I wonder how much nero is to buy?
<bhuvan> mdke have recently applied a patch to that file, common-tasks.xml
<Madpilot> bhuvan: I got mdke's patch, so I should be OK
<bhuvan> nice
<Madpilot> diff sent to list
<rob1> ooo only 19.95 usd
<rob1> thats gone down $10 since last time I saw it
<Madpilot> rob1: got my diff?
<rob1> just about to apply it
<rob1> did you run the validate script on desktopguide.xml first?
<Madpilot> yes - see my email - the errors seemed to concern parts of the xml I hadn't modified?
<rob1> line 57, in how do I burn music cds
<rob1> you just mixed the listitem tags up
<Madpilot> opened one before closing another?
<rob1> yeah
<Madpilot> yeah, I had two /listitems in a row there, I see now
<rob1> fixed and committed
<Madpilot> thnx
<rob1> just run ../../../validate.sh desktopguide.xml and it will tell you where the error is
<rob1> and what file its in
<Madpilot> with the three leading / like that?
<rob1> if you run it from the ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C directory
<rob1> because its located in the ubuntu directory
<Madpilot> OK, got you.
<Madpilot> the Serpetine section needs a bit of work... but it can wait until tomorrow, it's 0145 here...
<rob1> heh yeah, sure
<rob1> good work
<rob1> btw
<Madpilot> thanks again - more later
* rob1 looks forward to it
<rob1> we might add the cd burning as its own section or under mulitmedia maybe
<rob1> anyway, night
<mhz> #ubuntu-devel
<bhuvan> regarding server guide..
<bhuvan> any opinion about including access methods in version control section
<bhuvan> various access methods are http://, https://, svn://, svn+ssh://, etc.
* bhuvan misses Burgundavia
<jjesse> bhuvan: i think i'm the only one at the keys :)  and i haven't had a chance to look at the server guide recently
<Judax_> greets
<bhuvan> jjesse, ok :)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: ping?
<mdke> rob1, around?
<mdke> can anyone think of any agenda items for the meeting?
<mdke> hi there ned
<ned> hi all :-)
<ned> I'm a little confused with the docbook thing...
<mdke> ned, thanks for those mails to the list.
<mdke> let's get you working in docbook :)
<ned> you are welcome - it is nice to help
<ned> I have been reading about it - I thought it was an app :-o
<mdke> heh
<mdke> it is like html
<mdke> are you familiar with html?
<LaserJock> mdke: what about the common Preface thing?
<ned> so I see
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah nice one
<ned> I know what HTML is but have never used it
<ned> well never written it
<mdke> okay
<mdke> ned, have you got as far as downloading our repository?
<ned> nope - I'm going through the crashcourse for docbook
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> ned, feel free to fire any questions
<mdke> i'm not very good with it myself actually
<ned> hehe
<mdke> it's a lot of trial and error learning
<ned> i think I will need to spend quite a while to get the hang of it
<mdke> ned, a key tool is the validation script in our archive, that tells you if there are any errors
<LaserJock> ned: it is easier if you work on examples. The docs have a lot of stuff for people used th HTML, etc.
<mdke> the best thing is to download our repository, and have a look at some examples
<ned> the desktop guide was really useful btw - I learned alot proof reading it :-)
<ned> ahh yes that sounds good
<mdke> the key guide for that is this:
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<ned> okay I will check it out - thx
<ned> I think it may take a while to download :-)
<LaserJock> ned: you on dialup, It's about 170MB
<ned> nahh got adsl thankfully
<mdke> yeah it's big
<LaserJock> although it is 170MB on my disk, not sure if it is the same to download
<ned> what text editor do you folks write in?
<mdke> gedit
<mdke> bluefish is nice too
<LaserJock> gvim or gedit or emacs or nano
<LaserJock> whatever I feel like at the moment ;-)
<mdke> something with syntax highlighting will help
<LaserJock> for sure
<ned> gedit has syntax highlights?  (I haven't used any of those apps)
<LaserJock> gedit
<LaserJock> does
<ned> ok gedit it is then :-)
<mdke> what part of the uk are you in ned?
<ned> nottingham/derby area
<mdke> i'm in london
<ned> aha
<ned> it seems gedit is the deault text editor - thats handy
<ned> *default
<ned> there instructions say : /ubuntu-doc/gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml but there is no gnome folder...  quickguide is in the root
<LaserJock> mdke: the diff is starting to get pretty big on packagingguide.xml ;-)
<LaserJock> ned: go to ubuntu instead of gnome
<ned> ok
<mdke> LaserJock, send it over
<mdke> ned, good point, we'll update them
<LaserJock> mdke: not quite yet, I just got through the first chapter
<mdke> LaserJock, it can't hurt, I can apply it immediately and you can carry on working
<ned> yah its in root of Ubuntu not root of ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> mdke: true. just a sec.
<mdke> ned, we renamed "gnome" to "ubuntu" recently
<ned> that would explain it :-)
<mdke> LaserJock, done
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks
<mdke> LaserJock, is the original author helping you out too, or will you be on your own for now?
<LaserJock> mdke: Honestly, I'm not sure. He said that he wanted to work on it but I get the impression that he was sort of going on his own :(
<LaserJock> mdke: do you know how to freshen, i.e. get rid of stuff that isn't in the repo, with svn?
<LaserJock> i can just manually rm stuff but I wondered if there was a more elegant solution
<mdke> LaserJock, svn revert filename
<mdke> svn status to see what you've changed
<mdke> svn revert -R for recursive
<LaserJock> mdke: but what about files that weren't in the repo to start with, I have stuff in the build directory for example
<mdke> ah, i always just rm them
<LaserJock> ok, that's fine
<mdke> you can always just remove whole directories then do "svn up" to restore what you've lost
<LaserJock> ah, that's a good idea too
<Roman27> I'm thinking about adding a wiki document, but have a question.
<Roman27> Is it possible to start writing a wiki document, but not publish it right away?
<Roman27> Hello?
<Roman27> Is everyone just idling in here?
<Roman27> Hmm...  I guess so.
<Roman27> Maybe I'll just try it out and see how it goes.
<kjcole> Roman27, use a nickname in a sentence to get specific people's attention.
<mdke> he's not here ;)
<Kingbahamut> regretable as that might be, he seemed a little stressed in his speaking
<kjcole> mdke, Oops. I guess I thought he might still be hiding on another channel, and that mentioning a name might alert him.  (It does for me in Konversation.)
<ned> mdke you here m?
<LaserJock> ned: do you need something?
<ned> Hi LJ yes im a little stuck
<ned> I have been running through the doc https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository but when I try and validate or yelp it errors
<LaserJock> ned: what are you working on 
<LaserJock> I guess about-ubuntu.xml?
<ned> yes thats it
<ned> even if i don't make any modes it doesn't work
<LaserJock> ned: what command are you running to validate it?
<LaserJock> if I am in the ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/ directory and run "~/ubuntu-doc/validate.sh about-ubuntu.xml" it works fine
<ned> let me see...
<ned> hmm thats wasn'y the directory but if  I do that I just get a ">"
<LaserJock> ned: so it validated
<ned> yes I guess that one did - but the doc itself has changed - the references to gnome have gone :-)
<LaserJock> ned: so did I answer your question or do you need more?
<ned> I will run through it all again and see what happens
<ned> thanks LJ
<LaserJock> np, that's what we are here for :-)
<kjcole> Did my calendar screw up?  (More precisely "Was there/will there be a DocTeam meeting?"  The Fridge says "now".
<ned> LJ yes the instructions from this new guide work :-) the old one had a load of gnome references and pointed at ubuntu/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml
<ned>   I think I picked a bad time to practice hehe
<mdke> oh good point kjcole 
<ned> hi kjcole I can't help you with the DocTem meeting :-/
<mdke> kjcole, dude your irc client pings you when someone mentions your name on a channel you're not even on?
<mdke> that is serious use of the force
<kjcole> mdke, yep. Konversation's rather nice that way.  (You have to go in and tweak the default settings to turn that feature on.)
<mdke> lemme try
<mdke> kjcole, get that?
<kjcole> Yep.
<mdke> wtf!
<mdke> what channel did i ping you from?
<kjcole> #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> no...
<mdke> you're in #ubuntu-doc now
<mdke> i pinged you from #ubuntu-it
<mdke> there is no way of technology that I can even imagine that you could have heard that :)
<mdke> even with kde
<mdke> so if you did, you have supernatural powers
<kjcole> mdke, bizarre!  It showed up in my ubuntu-doc tab, even though I had the focus on #ubuntu-meeting.
<mdke> erm ok i'll say something else
<mdke> kjcole, what number did i say?
<kjcole> mdke, never mind. I understand.  When I responded "yup" I was responding  to the fact that I got "kjcole, get that?"  The actual message you sent from ubuntu-it I didn't get, but didn't know there was one to get, so I assumed I had gotten what you sent.
<mdke> lol
<kjcole> mdke, (did that make any sense?)
<mdke> phreaky
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ok phew
<kjcole> mdke, I didn't get the number you said.
<mdke> so you aren't psychic
<mdke> :(
<kjcole> mdke, I wish.  
<ned> anyone know when the server starter guide preview will be up?
<LaserJock> ned: try doc.ubuntu.com
<ned> will do - thx
<ned> how come there is no serverguide in the repository I have downloaded?
<mdke> ned, did you download the whole trunk?
<ned> ummm I don't know m
<ned> I followed the instructions
<mdke> have you got a "generic" folder?
<mdke> that's where the serverguide is
<ned> and if I svn up it does not pull anything else down
<ned> aha yes I do have it - thanks mdke
<mdke> ned, how are you getting on?
<ned> lol confused 
<mdke> ned, just ask
<ned> is the serverguide at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ a preview? if so how come there is no link to it?
<ned> ... from the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<mdke> ned, negligence
<ned> ok thats a bit clearer - but why is in generic and not ubuntu?
<mdke> ned, because it will ship with kubuntu too
<ned> ahhh I see :-)
<ned> I am just a bit lost - thanks for the help m
<mdke> no, good question
<mdke> and that's the second error on our wiki pages you've pointed out, so that helps too ;)
<ned> great :-) 
<rob1> hi
<mdke> rob1!
<rob1> :)
<mdke> hey Judax 
<Judax> Hi
<Judax> sorry, late to meetig
<LaserJock> there wasn't much of a meeting
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-08
<ned> anyone there?
<ned> oh well - I will try again tomorrow :-) cya!
<mdke> gah
<mdke> rob1, i haven't been able to work out why the qanda paragraphs are not vertically aligned with the numbers. Even with the same css as for breezy it doesn't help, so I think it must be something to do with the new way you've done the infra-document links. Any ideas?
<LaserJock> mpt: so what do you think would need to be done with about-ubuntu wrt the wikipedia thing? Rewrite it?
<mpt> yep
<mpt> That's what Wikipedia does in the reverse situation, LaserJock :-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> Madpilot: hmm, I can't remember why I pinged you? Oh maybe it was the cd burning thing.
<LaserJock> mpt: so if we takes something that is GPL is that ok?
<Madpilot> it was almost 11 hours ago that you pinged me, LaserJock ;)
<Madpilot> it's called "being at work" network lag
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I was just going to say that the only thing I cd burning for is iso's and that's why I like gnomebaker. I was unaware that Nautilus could do it.
<mpt> LaserJock, no, the current license for all Ubuntu Documentation Team work is dual GFDL and CC BY-SA.
<mpt> You can't take GPL stuff and mix it in.
<Madpilot> LaserJock: I'm going to write the "how to burn ISOs w/ Nautilus" section tonight, actually
<mpt> or GFDL stuff and mix it in.
<mpt> or BY-SA stuff and mix it in.
<LaserJock> mpt: so basically we have to do everything from scratch or get the authors to relicense?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia (Corey) also pointed out that Naut can do straight copies of CDs, so I'll play with that, make notes, and write that up too.
<Madpilot> We might not have to mention Gnomebaker at all, come to think of it
<mpt> LaserJock, not everything, just the paragraphs that were taken from documents under a single license or a non-superset set of licenses.
<LaserJock> Madpilot: cool, I just wanted to say that iso burning is pretty important in the linux world so we would want a pretty good section on that, but I think you've got that covered
<LaserJock> mpt: well that could be a problem for me. The packaging guide was originally a GPL'd doc
<Madpilot> ISO burning is even simpler than any other sort of burning - right click on the ISO, select Burn, done
<LaserJock> Madpilot: sweet, linux gets easier and easier all the time. I remember doing it command line
<Madpilot> Nautilus is actually an amazingly powerful app, it's not just for finding your porn... I mean, your files :D
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I never use it so I didn't know it did cd burning
<LaserJock> mpt: now you have me somewhat concerned
<mpt> LaserJock, I wasn't aware of that
<mpt> If a document starts GPL and was adopted by the documentation team, they can't just unilaterally change the license, they have to leave it GPL
<mpt> but the document under discussion is the Desktop Guide, which is dual-licensed GFDL + BY-SA
<LaserJock> mpt: do you know if the license for a .deb package applies to the contents or just the packaging? I would assume the contents
<mpt> I have no idea
<LaserJock> mpt: I got the doc from an aborted package done by a MOTU wannabe. The document itself has no license or copyright on it but the .deb package says GPL. That is why I assume it is GPL
<LaserJock> mpt: I guess it was GPL because it "borrows" from the Debian New Maintainer Guide, which is GPL.
<Madpilot> if it was derived from a GPL'd doc, then it's got to be GPL'd, doesn't it? viral licensing, and the rest?
<LaserJock> hmm, at what point does it become non-derived? If there was every a version take from a GPL'd doc, even if it is nothing the same now, does it still have to be GPL?
<LaserJock> s/every/ever/
<Kaiser_Away> Madpilot: yeh, afaik that's right
<Madpilot> LaserJock: that sounds like a good "ask a copyright lawyer" type question, but I believe (IANAL) that the intent of the GPL is that all derived works will be GPL
<LaserJock> ok, so what do I do?
<LaserJock> is it ok to just GPL it? or will that cause problems for the doc-team
<LaserJock> what is the licence for the wiki? I think that has been debated before, right?
<Madpilot> the wiki is dual-lic. GFDL/CC-BY-SA, just like the rest of the docs, AFAIK
* Madpilot wonders why it wasn't all just GPL'd from the start... must have been some decent sounding reason...
<LaserJock> ok, well half of the packaging guide is taken from the wiki so...
<LaserJock> this is starting to sound more and more like a rewrite
<LaserJock> maybe it is a discussion for the list?
<Madpilot> LaserJock: I was about to suggest taking it to email
<Madpilot> :)
<mpt> licensing screw-ups are always fun
<LaserJock> well, I think the original author maybe had a problem when half his doc was GPL and half was from the wiki
<LaserJock> anyway, I will email the list and get the discussion going there.
<Madpilot> heh, my simple little question about wording in the intro has already turned into a licensing mess, just add another larger one to the problem!
<LaserJock> lol, licensing seems to be especially difficult for docs. There are so many sources to pull from. It is hard to track down all the licenses. You kinda have to do it from scratch but then why reinvent the wheel?
<mpt> So write to your elected representative asking them to abolish copyright
<Madpilot> anyone know what "(yelp:25163): Yelp-CRITICAL **: history_pop_back: assertion `window->priv->history_back != NULL' failed" means? I get that when I try and launch my modified version of commontasks.xml in yelp from terminal
<LaserJock> well, I don't know that I have so much a problem with copyright as the large number of orthogonal licenses
<Madpilot> abolishing copyright is a bit extreme - simplifying our doc & wiki licenses is simpler...
<mpt> Madpilot, it's a programming error in yelp. Make a copy of your doc, then cleave chunks out of it until you have the smallest possible doc for which the assertion still occurs, then report a bug, attaching the file.
<Madpilot> mpt: messy... thanks, I'll do that in a bit
<mpt> Quite similar to the process for reporting layout bugs in Web browsers :-)
<Madpilot> mpt: paste of all the error msgs and console commands I used: http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/5316
<Madpilot> is there another docbook xml viewer available, aside from yelp?
<Madpilot> crap... yelp still isn't loading the xml I'm working on...
<Madpilot> brian@warbard:~/ubuntu-doc$ ./validate.sh /ubuntu/desktopguide/C/common-tasks.xml
<Madpilot> warning: failed to load external entity "/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/common-tasks.xml"
<Madpilot> wtf? the string is right, why isn't it even starting to validate?
<Kamping_Kaiser> should it be ./ubuntu
<Madpilot> yes, it should have been, now I've got a screenful of xml validation errors...
<Madpilot> thanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> np ;)
<Madpilot> now I've got to translate xml validation errors into english :P
<Madpilot> there's no reason you can't have two <para></para> tags in a row, is there? I thought <para> = HTML's <p> tag?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository <-- the svn diff command listed there doesn't seem to work... or else i'm just following the example wrong...
<ned> hi all - can anyone help me with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository I have made an update but I am stuck at step 4
<Madpilot> ned: which step?
<ned> step 4 - I have done some work on the serverguide which is in /generic not /ubuntu or /kubuntu like in the doc... if I follow the instructions but use /generic then I get an error
<ned> make: *** No rule to make target `au'.  Stop.
<Madpilot> meh...
<ned> any ideas? I am probably doing something very basic wrong
<Madpilot> I didn't get that HTML 'make' thing working either, I'm not sure what I did wrong...
<ned> ahh :-)
<ned> I will move on to step 6 then - thanks Madpilot
<ned> oooh I guess I can't
<Madpilot> does your stuff work in Yelp?
<ned> yes but there was an error - though all I have changed is some text within paragraphs
<Madpilot> I got the same thing - it's a known bug in Yelp, I gather...
<ned> I thought as much
<ned> what should I do with my changes then?
<Madpilot> do what I did - generate the diff, send it off to the list, and get someone else to beat Yelp into shape...
<Madpilot> XML drives me nuts, it's so wordy - I'm used to HTML/CSS...
<ned> ok - I am used to neither :-/
<Madpilot> what're you working on?
<ned> ammending the serverguide
<ned> svn diff > sguide.diff
<ned> oops
<Madpilot> Attention XChat Users: This Is Not Your Terminal Window. Thank You.
<Madpilot> :D
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> ned, still here?
<ned> yup
<ned> just about to post the diff...
<mdke> to build the serverguide you have to go to the ubuntu/ directory again
<mdke> and do "make server"
<ned> ok - will do - but I don't understand why
<mdke> there is no real reason
<ned> I get an error... bash: maker: command not found
<mdke> you need to install "make" and probably "docbook-xsl" too
<ned> Madpilot :-)
<ned> I have docbook-xsl
<ned> let me check make
<ned> I have make 3.80-9
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<Madpilot> mdke: seen that common-tasks diff I sent out?
<mdke> not yet
<mdke> Madpilot, ok what problems are you having with yelp?
<mdke> works here
<mdke> lemme try applying your patch
<Madpilot> it basically refuses to launch from terminal w/ common-tasks.xml, either the svn version or my modified version
<Burgundavia> mdke, we need to choose a wiki license and stay with it
<ned> mdke shall I post my diff as it is?
<mdke> ned, if it works, yeah
<mdke> Madpilot, yeah you have to open the whole thing
<mdke> Madpilot, your patch doesn't validate
<mdke> Burgundavia, feel free to comment on the spec
<Madpilot> wasn't sure if it would, TBH...
<mdke> Madpilot, if you do "../../../validate.sh desktopguide.xml
<mdke> it tells you what is wrong
<Burgundavia> mdke, sorry, that was badly worded. I have had a bad day
<mdke> Burgundavia, no, sounded fine to me :)
<mdke> Madpilot, in this case it is just some inconsistent tags i think
<Burgundavia> mdke, GFDL and CC-by-sa 2.0 sound great to me, because they we can take straight from the wiki into our onw docs
<Madpilot> mdke: from what I can see, the stuff it's complaining about is not stuff that I've changed...
<mdke> Madpilot, have a look at line 199 of the file
<mdke> Madpilot, its complaining because you've closed a tag twice
<Madpilot> OK, found that
<mdke> </para> (which was closed 5 lines above)
<mdke> nuke the first </para>
<Madpilot> yup
<Madpilot> except that the validate script doesn't actually mention line 199 anywhere...
<mdke> erm
<mdke> it does dude
<mdke> the first thing it says is:
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/C$ ../../../validate                                                                                          .sh desktopguide.xml 
<mdke> common-tasks.xml:199: parser error : Opening and ending tag mismatch: answer lin                                                                                          e 191 and para
<mdke> </para>
<mdke> after that, you just need to fix one thing in line 96
<mdke> which isn't working because you have a <para> inside another <para>
<Madpilot> nested paras
<mdke> got it :)
<mdke> tell me how you're changing it and I'll just commit it without you sending another patch
<mdke> Burgundavia, not free enough for me: too much attribution required
<Madpilot> mdke: just ditch the inner set of paras, I guess
<Burgundavia> mdke, they we should change our own licenses as well
<mdke> Burgundavia, why?
<mdke> ned, it's "make server"
<Burgundavia> mdke, because the ability to move straight out of the wiki is important
<Madpilot> mdke: so... to actually validate or view this stuff, you've got to validate and view some parent doc, rather than the specific doc you're working on?
<Burgundavia> mdke, if our licenses require too much attribution, how do WP et al get away with not listing every author on the actual page?
<mdke> Burgundavia, it is COPIES of the material that require the attribution
<mdke> or derivative works
<mdke> Madpilot, the desktopguide is all one document. But you can run the script on the single file too
<Burgundavia> mdke, WP have done offline versions
<Burgundavia> mdke, observe the german wikireaders
<Madpilot> mdke: hmm, I'm still thinking in HTML terms, I guess, where each file is freestanding, except for CSS links...
<mdke> Burgundavia, that's the same document, but if someone else were to copy and article and release it, they'd have to attribute the author and the url
<Burgundavia> mdke, can we get away with "Ubuntu doc team"?
<mdke> Burgundavia, for attributing the wiki?
<mdke> i don't think so
<Burgundavia> mdke, yep
<Burgundavia> why not?
<mdke> because we didn't write it
<Burgundavia> yes we did
<mdke> Madpilot, applying?
<mdke> Burgundavia, well, i don't think that would be sufficient attribution. I'd prefer to just license the wiki with something free-er
<Burgundavia> mdke, then we need to change all of our licenses to something "freer"
<mdke> i disagree
<Madpilot> mdke: sorry, I thought you were going to tweak my diff as is, and apply it?
<mdke> we don't need to make it easier to copy our docs, but we do need to make it easier to copy the wiki
<mdke> Madpilot, ok, just wanted to confirm
<mdke> done.
<Burgundavia> yes need to make it easier to us to use what is already written, regardless of source
<Madpilot> mdke: thanks
<mdke> Burgundavia, well i have no objection to changing our licences but I see the pressing need for changing the wiki licence rather than a pressing need for changing our docs, because we don't need to copy our docs :)
<mdke> i think we can address the issues separately
<Burgundavia> mdke, piecemeal licensing is a recipe for disaster further down the road
<mdke> Burgundavia, first, it's not piecemeal because the wiki is a totally different ball game. second, what disaster?
<mdke> don't forget the nature of the wiki is totally different
<Burgundavia> we need to figure out how to bridge the wiki <--> doc gap, not make it a 100' wall
<Burgundavia> holy crap we need bzr
<mdke> you are high
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> we have 4 different people sending patches
<Burgundavia> no I am not
<mdke> the wiki is collaborative and anyone can chip things in, by contrast, only a few people have access to the docs, and even fewer actually write them
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<mdke> as for bzr, i really don't think we need a decentralised system
<mdke> it will make things more confusing, rather than less
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: right now, at least, everyone sending diffs seems to be working on seperate docs...
<Burgundavia> not relaly
<mdke> but we can talk about it
<mpt> It can be as centrailized as you want it to be
<mpt> urg, I can't spell this early in the morning
<mdke> mpt, well i understand work is going on on that. But then again, so can svn
<Burgundavia> mdke, unlike you, I don't see us staying with moin until the bloody world ends
<mdke> i'm also told that the centralised aspect of bzr is not ready yet
<mpt> with svn you have no choice :-)
<mdke> mpt, that may well be a good thing
<mpt> mdke, er what? Launchpad has been using it centralized since just before UBZ
<Burgundavia> and when we move to a more robust web editing system, our licenses will be far more important
<mdke> mpt, just what I was told. i was pointed at http://bazaar.canonical.com/LockStepDevelopment
<mdke> mpt, someone has to merge in launchpad patches I thought
<mdke> shit, i'm late
* mdke runs off
<mdke> Burgundavia, quick last thought. What I say has nothing to do with moin. The fact is that the wiki is not where we write our docs, and everyone can contribute. If we move to a web editing system, I agree, we'll have to think about the licence for that. But for the main wiki, i see no need to have the _same_ licence as for our docs per se.
<Burgundavia> mdke, here is a compromise
<mdke> also, i don't think the wiki needs a full licence
<mdke> something simple is good enough
<mdke> just to make sure people know that they are giving away what they post
<Burgundavia> gpl is not simpler than gfdl
<Burgundavia> mdke, that is also a recipe for disaster, imho
<mdke> Burgundavia, gpl is not the proposed solution. You read the spec?
<Burgundavia> mdke, I was reacting to your posting about the packaging guide
<mdke> i was suggesting gpl for that guide, not for the wiki. Please read the spec
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> anyway, we can talk later
<mdke> sorry if that wasn't clear
<Burgundavia> yes, that was not clear
<mdke> remailed
<mdke> ok gtg
<mdke> see ya later
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, have you every seen js for something similar to this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4491672.stm
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, my crazy thought was doing that with svg and embedded images for help
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, and are you free on Sunday to work on the VLUG website?
<Madpilot> sure - do you want to come over Sunday afternoon?
<Burgundavia> sounds good to me
<Madpilot> http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/scroll_gallery.html <-- near-pure CSS gallery
<Burgundavia> can it support clicking to stay on that image, ala the BBC gallery?
<Burgundavia> doesn't need to support IE
<Burgundavia> and it should only support clicking, not roll over change
<Madpilot> no idea - there are a pile of gallery things out there, though
<Burgundavia> ok cool
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: new stable version of CMSMS due out before Xmas; v1.0 early in the New Year, apparently
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, cool
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: it is. you got my email?
<Burgundavia> which one?
<Madpilot> asking about your DVD SVG art?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I will do the work on that tomorrow if I get a chance, if not, by Sunday
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> need sleep - got to work @ 1000. Ick...
<Madpilot> later
<Burgundavia> night
<jsgotangco> hey all
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey mdke
<jsgotangco> what's up?
<freeflying> hi
<mdke> jsgotangco, not much, a lazy weekend
<mdke> jsgotangco, we're seeing quite a few patches from new contributors :)
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<LaserJock> hi mpt
<LaserJock> mpt: did you see my email (and mdke's response) in ubuntu-doc?
<mpt> LaserJock, no, I'm still about 200 messages behind
<LaserJock> mpt: np, I'll let you catch up then ;-)
<MichaleR> Hey Robert
<LaserJock> mpt: did you make it to the ubuntu-doc email yet? :-)
<ned> folks if I validate even before I edit I get an error:  ./validate.sh generic/styleguide/grammar.xml
<ned> validity error : no DTD found!
<ned> Document generic/styleguide/grammar.xml does not validate
<ned>  - is that normal or am I doing something wrong?
<LaserJock> ned: I'm not sure but I get that too
<mpt> LaserJock, 280 messages to go
<LaserJock> mpt: lol, I'll check in with you later ;-)
<rob1> who the heck was michaleR?
<mpt> whowas says "Michael Rasmussen", why?
<mpt> oh
<rob1> man ebay people are cheap, the postage for an item I'm selling is a little more then normal (due to its weight) yet I keep getting questions about it (despite me clearly explaining how I came up with the amount using the australia post website)
<HrdwrBoB> because people are tards
<rob1> yes. yes they are.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-09
<MichaleR> anybody home?
<theCore> where i can download the UbuntuPackagingGuide sources ?
<LaserJock> it is in the doc-team svn repository
<theCore> sure? i don't see it
<theCore> where exactly ?
<LaserJock> generic
<theCore> found , thx
<LaserJock> are you interested in it?
<theCore> yes, i want to correct some errors in it
<LaserJock> cool, I just got it in not long ago, it needs quite a bit of work
<MichaleR> LaserJock, 
<LaserJock> yeah?
<MichaleR> Do you know if anyone is working on the DNS section of the server guide?
<theCore> I'm not an expert in packaging, but i use it to learn now, so when I see ambiguous commands, i correct them
<LaserJock> theCore: that's good. I just started packaging not long ago
<LaserJock> MichaleR: hmm, I'm not sure. Haven't heard of anybody recently but I think the server guide has lot's of areas to work on. Usually I think they commits are fairly small so by watching ubuntu-doc-commit ML you can figure out where people are working
<LaserJock> theCore: what was the ambiguous command you found?
<MichaleR> OK, thanks.  
<LaserJock> MichaleR: I think that is why it's generally better to send your patches as they come rather than waiting until you are finished with everything before sending them.
<MichaleR> I was checking on the status before even starting.  Good point though.
<MichaleR> <mutter> I have an upgrade going bad on me today.
<LaserJock> MichaleR: dapper?
<MichaleR> No, hoary to breezy
<MichaleR> gconf2 replacement is getting hung up in trying to write a file.
<theCore> LaserJock: I wanted to start a "doc gluing project",  not a long time ago, but when I saw the quality of the documentation in ubuntu, I gave up the project to help the docteam
<MichaleR> "doc gluing project"?
<theCore> yep
<MichaleR> meaning?
<theCore> i was trying to centralize the scattered doc around the web to make a big linux tutorial for newbies
<LaserJock> MichaleR: Hoary? hmm, I haven't done Hoary since this about August ;-)
<MichaleR> I"m trying not to.
<MichaleR> :)
<MichaleR> It's my main dns/mail/web/database/ntp/dhcp/____ server
<LaserJock> theCore: one problem I'm having is that the scattered docs around the web have different licenses
<LaserJock> MichaleR: well I understand in that case :-)
<MichaleR> nothing is broken at this point.  Now to figure out the work around.
<LaserJock> theCore: so overall are there any major changes to the Packaging Guide that you would like to make?
<theCore> LaserJock, no, just some minor corrections 
<LaserJock> theCore: cool, go for it
<theCore> http://pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl/5360
<theCore> can you patch the file for me?
<LaserJock> theCore: unfortunately I don't have commit access yet (hopefully next week). Send it to the doc-team ML.
<theCore> okay
<LaserJock> hmm, why aptitude?
<theCore> easier to use, and it's more robust
<LaserJock> hmm, but it isn't installed by default is it?
<theCore> it's install by default
<MichaleR> And the preview mode allows you to work out conflicts and dependencies
<MichaleR> << using it right now
<theCore> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg00104.html     <<<< 7 reasons for aptitude
<LaserJock> well, I'm not against aptitude. I use it myself and know why, but I'm not sure about requiring everybody else use it
<mdke> LaserJock, pong
<theCore> apt-get is kinda obsolete to me
<LaserJock> mdke: did you see mpt's post just now?
<mdke> nope
<mdke> just got in
<LaserJock> mdke: you might want to
<theCore> mdke, hello, your the guys who helped yesterday to patch a doc
<theCore> isn't it ?
<mdke> theCore, that's right, thanks for the contribution
<mdke> LaserJock, ok
<mdke> about what?
<theCore> i have another one: http://pastebin.ubuntulinux.nl/5360 can you add it ?
<mdke> theCore, please mail the patch to the list, like last time :)
<mdke> theCore, that way, someone will apply it: it's late for me here and I'm about to go to bed
<LaserJock> mdke: packaging guide license problems
<mdke> bah
<mdke> overreacting
<LaserJock> theCore: I also am not sure about the -en part.
<mdke> LaserJock, my view is that all the _existing_ contributions to the wiki were made without retaining copyright
<mdke> it's a goddam wiki
<theCore> LaserJock: i tested it
<mdke> i'm pretty sure there is an implied renunciation of copyright by posting to a collaborative area like that
<MichaleR> mdke - It's not late, it's early.  Welcome to Sunday.
<mdke> MichaleR, :)
<mdke> LaserJock, the discussion is a total overreaction in my view, it's not nearly such a big deal
<LaserJock> mdke: I was planning on redoing the pbuilder and chroot parts (which are the parts from the wiki) anyway so maybe I can skirt the problem that way.
<mdke> LaserJock, sure, or contact the authors and ask, if you're actually worried about it
<mdke> i mean the idea is just ridiculous
<mdke> what are they gonna sue you for?
<mdke> have you made much profit out of the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> although one could make the argument that this is a derivative of Unfrgiven's Intro Developer Doc and that was GPL'd incorrectly because of the wiki part
<mdke> have you reduced their profits?
<LaserJock> mdke: lol, no
<LaserJock> but I think that the point is acknowledgment of others work
<theCore> just add the name the author in the contributors list
<mdke> LaserJock, sure, but my point is, even if you're infringing (which you're not because they impliedly renounced all rights in the material by posting it to the wiki), they have not suffered a loss by the infringement, so it would be a waste of time suing you
<mdke> s/you/us
<theCore> and a waste of money
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> we won't because I'll be our lawyer for free
<mdke> :)
<theCore> :D 
<LaserJock> well there are a total of 16 authors for the parts that we have
<mdke> LaserJock, do you want to handle theCore's patch on the packaging guide, and maybe merge it into your local copy?
<mdke> then send a patch?
<LaserJock> mdke: well we need to talk about it. I actually disagree a little bit about these changes
<mdke> ah ok, you guys handle it
<theCore> what the problem ?
<LaserJock> theCore: well I'm still not convinced of aptitude and I think that debian-reference-en is too specific
<LaserJock> I'm not opposed but I'm just not sure yet
<theCore> LaserJock: i though adding a note for debian-reference
<LaserJock> but isn't debian-reference easier on the reader than a note?
<LaserJock> the only negative I see is that they get 9 other languages too by installing debian-reference
<theCore> LaserJock: for aptitude, i tried using the command with apt-get a it didn't worked, so i tried with aptitude and it worked w/o a problem
<LaserJock> theCore: what was the apt-get problem
<theCore> LaserJock: debian-reference isn't a pkg
<theCore> LaserJock: sorry your right
<theCore> debian-reference is a pkg
<LaserJock> theCore: for me it installs debian-reference-en 
<theCore> The following NEW packages will be installed:
<theCore>   debian-reference debian-reference-common debian-reference-de
<theCore>   debian-reference-en debian-reference-es debian-reference-fr
<theCore>   debian-reference-it debian-reference-ja debian-reference-pl
<theCore>   debian-reference-pt-br debian-reference-zh-cn debian-reference-zh-tw
<theCore> those are the pkg install with debian-reference
<LaserJock> theCore: all of them or just -en?
<theCore> all
<LaserJock> with apt-get I just get -en
<theCore> use aptitude
<LaserJock> well, sure with aptitude you will get all of them
<theCore> debian-reference debian-reference-common would come to miss if you install just -en ... hmm
<LaserJock> debian-reference-common would be installed with -en
<theCore> the whole package is 25.3MB
<theCore> ok
<LaserJock> but I don't know why apt-get debian-reference would be wrong
<theCore> i think it's because apt-get don't make the proper dep
<theCore> but i'm not about that ...
<LaserJock> apt-get just doesn't install Recommends by default but it does the deps ok
<theCore> ah ok
<theCore> so? aptitude or apt-get ?
<theCore> debian-reference or -en ?
<LaserJock> hmm, well the target audience is experienced Ubuntu users so I think they should be able to decide what they want to use between apt-get and aptitude
<theCore> maybe putting aptitude as a recomendation
<LaserJock> well, debian-reference is essentially the same as -en except for if you use aptitude you will get everything
<LaserJock> theCore: the only thing is that I feel that apt-get is more universal and if people use aptitude they know that they will just replace apt-get with aptitude
<LaserJock> if we find precedent for using aptitude then I suppose it is ok, but whatever we do we will need to be consistent throughout
<theCore> yeah, i heard about those people who are going around and scaring users out of aptitude
<LaserJock> theCore: personally I would use synaptic so I don't care
<theCore> LaserJock, synaptic is just somehow heavy to load
<mdke> asking the devs would seem sensible
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah but that is like asking vim or emacs :-)
<theCore> mdke: good idea
<theCore> lol
<LaserJock> I think it might be wise to be consistent with other docs
<mdke> LaserJock, you'll get an authoritative answer i reckon
<theCore> LaserJock, i was going to ask in the Motu  :(
<LaserJock> theCore: sorry
<theCore> lol, n/w
<mdke> ask on -devel
<mdke> mailing list
<LaserJock> mdke: oh I don't think I want to do that. I want to get membership on Tuesday
<mdke> ?
<LaserJock> sounds like a good way to get in trouble ;-)
<theCore> i will ask
<LaserJock> theCore: basically on -motu they are saying that aptitude -R might be best
<mdke> nah, it's not
<LaserJock> well, let's not go overboard on this. So far we are talking about 1 line
<ned> LaserJock - OK thanks LJ
<theCore> so ? what we do ?
<LaserJock> theCore: I think we will remove the apt-get line
<mdke> infinity has a good point
<LaserJock> theCore: it might be better to just tell them to install that are needed for each section
<theCore> that true
<theCore> but feel we should keep some commands ... so the reader have some examples on how working
<LaserJock> hi
<theCore> hello
<minghua> hi, finding typos for the PackagingGuide
<minghua> Hi LaserJock and theCore 
<LaserJock> minghua: in what sections?
<minghua> ch. 1, the 2nd line from bottom, extra "imple answer is ... complex"
<LaserJock> right, known bug ;-)
<minghua> ...
<minghua> and not easily fixable?
<LaserJock> well, it will be as soon as i have a second and I send a patch to mdke
<LaserJock> minghua: although there is some delay between the svn repo and doc.ubuntu.com so it might be fixed alread
<LaserJock> y
<theCore> "The concepts in the document are backed up with examples so that readers may participate"  <<<< that a reason why we should keep the install commands
<minghua> have you guys looked at packages hello-dbs and hello-debhelper?
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that maybe we should do them as needed and say " First, install ..." that way we aren't telling them how to install and they should only have to do a few at a time
<minghua> I found those after I learned packaging (mostly from NM guide and debhelper documentation)
<minghua> so I didn't bother reading carefully
<minghua> but it would make nice examples for new potential packagers, I suppose
<minghua> and maybe write a hello-cdbs yourself? ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock: your probably right, so i will stop bothering you we this ;)
<LaserJock> minghua: sweet, I've been looking for something like that
<LaserJock> theCore: this has been a great conversation and we got the -devel guys talking about it so that is good
<mpt> mdke, where do you get the idea that posting to a wiki renounces copyright?
<mpt> That would be very helpful if it was true
<mdke> yeah theCore i'm glad to see you getting involved :)
<mdke> mpt, just writing an email about it now. Btw thanks for the feedback on the licensing spec, that is really helpful
<minghua> LaserJock: oh, and the package hello as well, its also a example for packaging
<LaserJock> minghua: right, saw that, thanks so much
<theCore> mdke, thx, btw i'm not even english speaker, i'm a french so if you feel my english is kinda sloppy, tell me because i really want to get ride of those poor errors ...
<mdke> theCore, np!
<mdke> theCore, we all make errors
<mdke> they get picked up when people read over the docs, like minghua is doing :)
<theCore> mdke: me even more
<mdke> not a problem, we'll read through the docs a lot
<theCore> mdke: you speak italian, doesn't it ?
<mdke> theCore, yeah
<mdke> not as a first language though
<minghua> am I reading ch. 2 correctly that you are claiming gcc depends on autoconf?
<minghua> that's just a recommends
<theCore> nice, i wish i could ... i'm half italian and i doesn't even speak a word
<mpt> mdke, who if anyone is working on trying to fix the ubuntuguide.org situation?
<LaserJock> minghua: I assume that you are talking about the diagram
<minghua> LaserJock: yes
<LaserJock> minghua: I didn't do the figure and I'm not much of a fan of it.
<mdke> mpt, i posted several times in the forums, it is a no go situation. ubuntuguide.org is dead now because the author is ill. but a new resource has sprung up, which is being maintained by a group I believe
<minghua> I actually like the idea of the figure
<mpt> mdke, what do the forums have to do with it?
<mdke> mpt, a lot
<minghua> but the dependency is probably more complicated than it's currently shown as
<mdke> mpt, the ubuntuguide.org came to be associated directly with the forums, and was coordinated there. Ditto the new resource
<mpt> oh, ok
<mdke> mpt, i'll find the url to some classic threads
<mpt> mdke, I just tried, and ubuntuguide.org is not dead
<mdke> mpt, dead as in unmaintained
<mpt> unfortunately they are not at all the same thing :-)
<mpt> It's going to get steadily more confusing and frustrating as it gets more out of date
<LaserJock> minghua: they problem with the figure to me is that somebody has to redo it every time there is a mistake, etc.
<mdke> mpt, but bottom line is: we can't stop community members from making their own websites. We can try to convince them to muck in with us (and I really have!) but we can't force them
<theCore> LaserJock: i can remake the figure
<mdke> mpt, with regard to that specific url, we can maybe approach chua and ask for a redirect or something
<mpt> That's why I said "the ubuntuguide.org situation" as opposed to "the Ubuntu Guide situation"
<minghua> LaserJock: oh it's not auto-generated?  that must be a PITA...
<LaserJock> minghua: I think it was a one time deal but maybe not
<LaserJock> minghua: I don't have access to that though, the original author did it
<mdke> mpt, ah yeah
<mpt> mdke, right, I was wondering if anyone had done that already
<mdke> mpt, not to my knowledge, I actually don't know how ill he is, I'm happy to try
<mpt> that would be excellent mdke, thanks
<mpt> and I realize we can't stop community members from making their own Web sites, even misleading ones, but this one is a special case because of the combination of its popularity and its decay of appropriateness
<mdke> mpt, yeah you're right
<theCore> minghua: do you know how to make auto-generated image ?
<minghua> theCore: no.  I make most of my images with gnuplot, not your type of diagrams
<theCore> i think Dia would make the job
<theCore> minghua: what do want I correct in the diagram ?
<LaserJock> minghua: lol, me too
<minghua> theCore: If your diagram is about Depends:, then gcc only recommends autoconf
<minghua> theCore: if it's about Recommends: as well, then gcc recommends a lot more stuff like automake1.9
<minghua> LaserJock: well, we are both in MOTUScience for a reason :-)
<LaserJock> minghua: that's right 
<theCore> minghua: so? do i include the recommmends ?
<minghua> theCore: Err... I'm not so sure.  I haven't exactly what the diagram is trying to do yet
<minghua> theCore: if it's for "what you need to install if you want certain packages mentioned above", then probably you need to list autoconf parrallel with gcc, since not everyone uses aptitude (but that's another point you are discussing, I suppose)
<minghua> theCore: and maybe list automake as well since it's mentioned above
<minghua> but IMHO autoconf/automake is definitely too much for a beginner packager
<LaserJock> hmm, I think that section might need some retooling. Maybe it should be an appendix or something
<LaserJock> I think having an overview off the tools that packagers use is good but maybe it is too much to start with
<theCore> remaking is quite easy
<theCore> remaking the diagram*
<theCore> LaserJock / minghua: what do you think ? http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/5363
<minghua> theCore: I like this color/layout better
<theCore> minghua: what about the arrows ? are they okay ?
<LaserJock> theCore: looks good, but are you going to put in the next level for pbuilder, build-essential, etc. ?
<minghua> theCore: not bad.  I have quite poor aesthetical tastes though, so don't count my opinion too much :-)
<theCore> LaserJock: yes, i will
<LaserJock> theCore: sweet
<rob1> man its hot here today
<LaserJock> rob1: where?
<rob1> north qld australia
<LaserJock> rob1: how hot?
<rob1> the gnome temp app says 32C
<rob1> its the humidity thats the killer
<LaserJock> rob1: that's like 90 F. Pretty warm if it's humid. I live in Reno, NV and it gets to be 105+ but it is very dry so it's not as bad
<rob1> apart from the little sink hole where I live its tropical rainforest around here
<rob1> you can just sit there and do nothing and still sweat here
<theCore> in pbuilder, devscripts and fakeroot are only recommendation too, so do I include them ?
<Madpilot> hi all
<rob1> hi Madpilot 
<theCore> LaserJock?
<Madpilot> anyone here own an iPod and use it in Ubuntu? Feel like writing the iPod section of Common Tasks/Multimedia in the Desktop Guide?
<LaserJock> yeah, just a sec
<Madpilot> :) it doesn't have to be done this minute, I just noticed that all it says in the iPod section is "Write Later" - and I don't own one...
<LaserJock> Madpilot: sorry, I was talking to theCore
<rob1> yeah, we are still not sure what we are going to do with the common task, but if you write an ipod section it will be included for sure
* theCore fell important ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: ah, nevermind then
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that we need to basically put in a diagram the relationship between all the packages that are listed. It and the apt-get line should agree
<LaserJock> I don't think that we should rely on Recommends because that will only work for people using aptitude
<theCore> LaserJock: okay
<LaserJock> ok, I
<LaserJock> will be back in a sec. I'm on Windows and I installed a program so of course I have to reboot >:(
<theCore> minghua: what do think of this one : minghua
<theCore> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/i5364
<minghua> theCore: I like the idea of using dashed lines for recommends
<theCore> minghua: what should i add ?
<minghua> theCore: you probably can drop the "| libc-dev" part though
<theCore> minghua: done
<minghua> theCore: I can't say, as I don't really know how this diagram would be integrated with the guide
<minghua> theCore: and I don't know enough about the guide either
<theCore> minghua: me too ... 
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you need?
<theCore> http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/i5364
<theCore> LaserJock: so?
<LaserJock> cool, gimme a sec
<rob1> speaking of ipods before, is there a way of running itunes on linux that doesn't require me spending any money on crossover office?
<LaserJock> theCore: how hard was that to make?
<theCore> LaserJock: it was quite easy
<LaserJock> theCore: did you use dia?
<theCore> LaserJock: yes
<theCore> LaserJock: i was a graphic designer before i got into linux
<theCore> LaserJock: so i know how to use those tools
<skoo> hi, all
<rob1> hi skoo
<skoo> ^_^
<skoo> not many people alive here, hehe
<rob1> sometimes there is
<skoo> hmm, where r u, now?
<theCore> LaserJock: do you want the source code ?
<rob1> why I'm sitting at a computer somewhere
<skoo> hehe, but I mean where are you from?
<rob1> australia
<skoo> wow, what's the time there?
<rob1> 2pm
<rob1> depending on where you are
<skoo> China
<skoo> just 12am
<skoo> didn't have my lunch
<rob1> god, why is it so hard to buy mp3s in this country using this operating system?
<skoo> It is so in China
<skoo> But I go the mp3 Market
<LaserJock> theCore: can you send me an email?
<theCore> LaserJock: sure
<skoo> You have lots of choice there
<theCore> pp me your address
<minghua> LaserJock: good luck on the packaging guide project
<theCore> LaserJock: a Makefile for the packaging guide would be useful 
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean?
<theCore> LaserJock: to build the html version of the guide
<LaserJock> theCore: there already is
<theCore> LaserJock: really ?
<theCore> LaserJock: where ?
<LaserJock> in the generic folder
<theCore> ah, sorry
<theCore> it's doesn't work ..
<LaserJock> just a sec
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<rob1> whats going on?
<LaserJock> well, the make for the packaging guide is gone
<LaserJock> I think it might be because of the license thing
<theCore> well, i will use yelp for testing
<LaserJock> How come we haven't gotten any emails from ubuntu-doc-commits lately?
<rob1> no one has been committing probably
<LaserJock> well we are at 2189 but my last email was 2174
<LaserJock> 2180 I mean
<rob1> dunno
<rob1> same here
<LaserJock> how do you get the changes for a file in svn?
<rob1> svn diff
<LaserJock> between revisions
<rob1> svn diff
<theCore> svn up
<rob1> svn diff -r revisionnumber
<rob1> svn diff -r revisionnumber:otherrevisionnumber 
<LaserJock> very cool
<LaserJock> well, I can't figure out what happened 
<theCore> LaserJock: chapter 3 commands don't work
<LaserJock> theCore: where?
<theCore>  sudo echo mychroot /var/chroot >>  /etc/dchroot.conf <<< don't work : i needed to enter a root login with 'sudo -s' 
<theCore> sudo debootstrap variant=buildd breezy /var/chroot/ http://archive.Ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/  <<< don't work neither
<theCore> i feel we will need to rebuild chapter 3
<LaserJock> theCore: for sure
<theCore> LaserJock: i'm going to read the DNMG i need to learn more on pkg building before making more change into the guide
<theCore> s/on/about/
<LaserJock> theCore: fine. I am still trying to figure out where we should go with this so it is pretty fluid at this point
<theCore> LaserJock: it will be a tough job ubuntuize the DNMG 
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I don't would to do more than just ubuntuize the DNMG
<LaserJock> theCore: sorry that sentence was terrible
<LaserJock> theCore: I think it would be good to not just Ubuntuize the DNMG
<theCore> ahh 
<theCore> sure, i don't want to just remake the DNMG into UNMG 
<theCore> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ch-start.en.html <<< this page is quite similiar to our guide
<theCore> LaserJock: it look like copy and paste to me
<LaserJock> theCore: exactly
<theCore> LaserJock: i think we can complete the guide for dapper release
<LaserJock> I sure hope so ;-)
<theCore> that my objective 
<theCore> i have 6 months without school, so... i gonna work on this
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I need to go but I'm glad you are interested in the packaging guide, especially that figure. It would be nice to do some more graphics. Not sure where yet.
<theCore> LaserJock, thx, cya
<LaserJock> theCore: btw I think on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBook there are commands to use xsltproc to convert the XML into HTML
<LaserJock> good night everybody
<rob1> check out the make file in ubuntu/
<rob1> its all in there
<LaserJock> rob1: your right, I thought it was in generic/
<LaserJock> theCore: there you go. In ubuntu/ do "make package" to get it
<theCore> ah ! thanks
<theCore> gotta too, cya later everybody 
<rob1> bye
<rob1> hmm.. I'm not really liking the new format of common-tasks.xml
<Madpilot> rob1: what should we think about changing in common tasks?
<Madpilot> I was thinking of moving the Serpentine section to the Multimedia area...
<rob1> I'm about to commit some stuff
<Madpilot> OK
<rob1> ok done, check that out
<rob1> bbs
<rob1> :)
<Madpilot> rob1: is Serpentine not going to be in Dapper? Why use grip instead, when Serp. is currently installed by default?
<rob1> does serp rip as well?
<Madpilot> sorry, not serp
<Madpilot> sound juicer
<Madpilot> which rips & plays
<rob1> if it has a better interface and/or is installed by default then sure
<rob1> grip just came to mind because I have used it in the past
<rob1> cd player and rhythmbox are the default playback apps
<Madpilot> rob1: um, not in Breezy, not for audio CDs AFAIK - it's SoundJuicer for both
<rob1> whoa mdke went nuts on the css
<Madpilot> rob1: if we do a partial revert of common-tasks, I'd written up SJ for ripping & playing in the previous version...
<rob1> hmm soundjuicer is the default playback/ripping app.. goes to show how much I play audio cds on my pc
<rob1> its a bit hard to do a patial revert, just add your changes into the latest revision 
<Madpilot> OK, I've got a non-svn copy of common tasks that I saved, I can get it from there
<Madpilot> OK, two patches sent to the list
<rob1> Madpilot, try to use the full application name including a capital when refering to an application ;)
<Madpilot> was that in my patches?
<rob1> does soundjuicer do mp3s?
<Madpilot> gah...
<Madpilot> rob1: no idea, I've just been ripping to .ogg or .flac all along
<rob1> ah
<Madpilot> will search the forums...
<rob1> hmm, just took a look.. apparently not
<rob1> although I'd rather stick to ogg/flac anyway
<robitaille> rob1,  http://www.emcken.dk/weblog/archives/99-MP3-encoding-with-Sound-Juicer.html
<robitaille> I have been playing with this tonight, and it works in Breezy
<Madpilot> robitaille: excellent - care to add two lines to common-tasks.xml, please?
<rob1> great :)
<rob1> well, at least theres a way
<robitaille> it also involves installing lame from multiverse.  So maybe it's more than 2 lines :)
<rob1> yep, it works. just tested it. thanks robitaille 
<rob1> robitaille, is the commit list not working currently?
<robitaille> rob1,  I have no idea
<mdke> rob1, i went nuts on the css?
<mpt> "The GNOME is the GNU Graphical Desktop, it's the default desktop environment on Ubuntu, as well as Edubuntu." <-- gnarrgh
<mdke> hmm?
<mpt> Bad writing from http://www.edubuntu.org/tour.html
<mdke> highvoltage might have access to that page, you can ping him, otherwise JaneW and henrik I guess
<mpt> There should be someone whose full-time job is to fix the Web sites
<mpt> they're a mess
<mdke> mpt, i think they have been left to rot to a certain extent because of the transition to moin: apparently plone makes it very difficult to clear things up, perhaps when the moin site is implemented, then it will be easier
<rob1> mdke, well it might be the new stylesheets
<rob1> it will need some work
<mdke> rob1, what might be the new stylesheets?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-10
<theCore> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<theCore> LaserJock: i build my first package !
<LaserJock> theCore: nice
<theCore> LaserJock: it was quite easy dh_make
<theCore> LaserJock: how i know how to make the guide
<theCore> LaserJock: first we will need to introduce the reader howto build packages from source
<theCore> LaserJock: just a quick review
<theCore> LaserJock: after we put a basic tutorial, that walkthrough the reader
<LaserJock> theCore: I've been thinking. Maybe we should start from scratch.
<theCore> LaserJock: maybe ... 
<theCore> LaserJock: but I think we need catch the reader with something concret
<LaserJock> theCore: I'm going to throw a quick outline together of what I'm thinking and put it on a wiki page
<theCore> LaserJock: ok
<LaserJock> theCore: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
<theCore> LaserJock: "Scope of guide" is quite the same of "Target Audience", isn't it ?
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah pretty much
<LaserJock> theCore: but its' a pretty rough outline ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock: i know ;)
<theCore> LaserJock: does Ubuntu has a list of orphaned packages ?
<LaserJock> theCore: I don't really think there is any such thing in Ubuntu. At least for Universe packages the team as a whole is the maintainer
<theCore> LaserJock: i made somes changes
<LaserJock> ok, I will be away for a bit. I'll be back a little later though.
<theCore> me too, cya later
<LaserJock> theCore: well, hmmm. I think we need to work through these. I don't want to seem critical but I was trying to get away from the DNMG but the changes you made kinda seem like it turns it into that.
<theCore> LaserJock: im back
<LaserJock> theCore: now II'm back :-)
<theCore> nice
<theCore> LaserJock, i think we try to make the Packaging guide both a introduction and a refrence guide
<theCore> *reference
<theCore> LaserJock, in what way you want to get away from DNMG ?
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I would like to start getting into examples earlier
<theCore> LaserJock, i think so too
<theCore> LaserJock, but before getting to the examples, the reader must configure his system propely
<LaserJock> theCore: my thought would be that we would only require build-essentials and devscripts to start with. Then as the examples progress will start each example with the programs needed. 
<theCore> LaserJock, hmm, then we need to put the require programs as an annexes
<theCore> LaserJock, all right then
<LaserJock> theCore: no just say at the beginning of each section, "Required programs : ..."
<theCore> LaserJock, i see ... 
<theCore> LaserJock, good lets make like that
<LaserJock> that way the reader doesn't get overwhelmed in figuring out the packages they need to install and what they do before we have even started an example
<theCore> LaserJock, good idea
<theCore> LaserJock, edit the wiki then
<LaserJock> theCore: the other thing is I would like to put most of the stuff you have in "Files under /debian" into the Packaging scenarios. I invision that most of the material will be in that section
<theCore> LaserJock, i wanted this section as a reference of all the options of those file
<theCore> LaserJock, maybe, we should divide the guide in 2 parts: a tutorial and a reference part
<LaserJock> theCore: I was thinking more basic part and advanced part but yeah something like that
<theCore> LaserJock, we could divide the tutorial in 2 parts too: basic and adv. ...
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, let me edit the wiki a bit and we can go through it again. Thanks for doing this with me. It really helps to have somebody to talk things over with.
<theCore> LaserJock, no prob.
<theCore> LaserJock, however, there is something with which I stand firmly for:  the user must get no errors
<LaserJock> theCore: of course ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, so we need to adapt properly the commands 
<LaserJock> theCore: yes and I hope to get lots of proofreading from the MOTU and the core devs.
<theCore> LaserJock, me too
<theCore> LaserJock, today when i was reading DNMG, I got a gnupg error with dh_make and it's only at the end they shown how to configure it so it works 
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, stuff like that would be good to avoid, although it is an easy mistake to make sometimes
<theCore> LaserJock, we need to get to the user a real package to make
<theCore> LaserJock, like that we can tweak the guide so the reader go get an obscur error 
<theCore> LaserJock, but we will need a set of good packages, so we can show all the typical error and problem to get over with
<theCore> LaserJock, so how is it going with the wiki?
<LaserJock> theCore: sorry, still working on it. I was trying to help my wife decorate a Christmas tree for a minute.
<theCore> LaserJock, lol
<LaserJock> theCore: yes, minghua suggested the hello packages. That is what they are designed for
<theCore> LaserJock, ok lets go with the hello pkg
<theCore> LaserJock, maybe it would be cooler for the reader using a real package
<theCore> LaserJock, so at the end he didn't read the guide for nothing
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, check it out
<LaserJock> theCore: it still needs some work
<theCore> LaserJock, okay
<theCore> LaserJock, not bad ...
<LaserJock> theCore: the thing is that most of the material should be done in the packaging scenarios because that is where the examples will mainly be
<theCore> LaserJock, true
<LaserJock> theCore: but at this point it is hard to show that on an outline
<theCore> LaserJock, why did you put  Binary & Source packages before the walkthrough ?
<LaserJock> theCore: because the reader should understand the difference between them I think before they really start getting into it, then you say " This is how you create the source packages"
<LaserJock> if you say that before they know the difference I think there might be confusion
<LaserJock> in fact maybe "Tools needed for development" should be after the overview
<theCore> LaserJock, okay, can you explain to me what do you consider a source pkg ( are talking about the .tar.{gz,bz2} package ? )
<theCore> LaserJock, nah , i don't think so
<LaserJock> theCore: the source pkg is the .orig.tar.gz, .dsc, and an optional .diff.gz file
<theCore> LaserJock, okay 
<LaserJock> theCore: that is what the packager deals with almost exclusively, not the binary packages
<theCore> LaserJock, we should add a quick tutorial on how building a package just with the source
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean exactly?
<theCore> LaserJock, building form a tarball
<theCore> from*
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that should be covered in the "Packages from scratch" scenario
<theCore> LaserJock, or maybe we should put that into the prerequisites
<theCore> ah okay, i see
<LaserJock> theCore: I think the point should be to get the reader to the scenarios as quickly as possible
<theCore> true
<LaserJock> theCore: the getting started section should just get everybody on the same page
<theCore> LaserJock, i just figured out what you wanna do
<theCore> LaserJock, i think so, too
<theCore> LaserJock, the scenario idea is nice
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that is the distinction I'm trying to make with the DNMG 
<theCore> LaserJock, and i think it's great way to do it
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I hope it will work
<theCore> LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy
<LaserJock> theCore: how so? you mean content or the actual XML?
<theCore> LaserJock, both
<LaserJock> theCore: I agree. Although I did try to get the first couple of sections tidied up a bit
<theCore> LaserJock, i think we will need to rebuild the whole DocBook XML file, because the current one is quite crapy
<theCore> oups
<theCore> wrong key ... :(
<theCore> LaserJock, for now, it's just a DocBook convertion of DNMG
<LaserJock> theCore: with some wiki thrown in
<theCore> and a diagram
<LaserJock> yep, I mean the original author did quite a bit of work, but I think we need to go with this other approach
<theCore> i agree
<theCore> LaserJock, do we start ?
<LaserJock> theCore: yes. I think the first step would be to flesh out that outline a little bit more and get the Getting Started section done. That shouldn't take too long.
<theCore> LaserJock, i think we should use the wiki as a development area, and then when we finish a section we could do the DocBook conversion
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, at least until I get commit access to the repo ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, lol
<LaserJock> Hopefully that will be right after Tuesday's CC meeting
<theCore> you are lucky, i would like to get a access too ... but anyway ...
<LaserJock> keep on working and you will.
<theCore> LaserJock, hmm dh-make as an advance tool ?
<theCore> LaserJock, i'm sure about that
<LaserJock> theCore: well we will have to see. I just stuck them there for now until we know what we will put in the scenarios
<theCore> http://www.us.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ap-pkg-eg.en.html <<<< that was, for me, the most useful part of the DNMG
<LaserJock> theCore: right, those kinds of things are what we should be focused on. I was really dissapointed when I read through all the material and then all the good stuff was at the end
<theCore> LaserJock, lol, me too
<theCore> LaserJock, but me i started reading the guide from the end ;)
<theCore> LaserJock, what are the packages we use for the examples ?
<theCore> LaserJock, i think we need some concrete examples with real packages
<LaserJock> hello, hello-dbs, and hello-debhelper are already in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> we may need to add others if we need to do more
<theCore> hello packages are not what i call concrete example ... but they will do the jobs ...
<theCore> are they in tar.gz format ?
<LaserJock> theCore: why not? they were designed for showing how to package
<LaserJock> theCore: they are just like any other package
<theCore> LaserJock, i dunno, i wouldn't feel proud building an hello package, i would, more likely, feel dumb
<theCore> but that my point of view
<Madpilot> Isn't "Hello World" the standard first step in programming? why shouldn't it be the first step in package-building? ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: take a look at hello
<theCore> Madpilot, maybe ... :-/
<LaserJock> the worst thing we can do is pick a package that either will change enough that the example will need to get updated often or it won't work anymore, or something that will need a bunch of dependecies
<LaserJock> the other thing is that a lot of packages aren't exactly the best examples of packaging
<theCore> LaserJock, okay ... i'm conviced ... but i still have some doubts
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I admit that the outcome isn't terribly exciting but I think it is better than having readers chase down dependencies
<theCore> LaserJock, i really the LinuxFromScratch book and they show tough example
<LaserJock> I mean it's got postinst and prerm scripts, autotools
<theCore> LaserJock, for me, LFS is the best book out on the web to learn linux
<theCore> LaserJock, the whole book is one big example
<theCore> LaserJock, so maybe we should use their way ...
<theCore> ... mixed with your
<LaserJock> theCore: hmm, how would it be different?
<theCore> theCore, it's wouldn't have dumb examples
<theCore> LaserJock, *
<LaserJock> theCore: really though, how dumb is it? Packagers often don't care about what they are packaging they just need to do it
<theCore> LaserJock, yea .. maybe 
<LaserJock> theCore: well, it might be the easiest starting point, unless you have something better
<theCore> LaserJock, ok, lets do it like this then
<theCore> LaserJock, now, we really need to concentrate on the Packaging Scenarios, i think it's really a good idea
<theCore> LaserJock, those will be existing for the readers
<theCore> LaserJock, and enriching too
<LaserJock> I hope so
<theCore> LaserJock, so what are you doing right now ?
<LaserJock> theCore: looking at your changes ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, so?
<LaserJock> theCore: couple of changes, check it now
<theCore> LaserJock, cdbs ?
<LaserJock> yep
<theCore> LaserJock, what is it exactly ?
<LaserJock> http://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml
<theCore> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=51003 <<< could be useful
<LaserJock> yes, I've seen that before
<theCore> http://women.alioth.debian.org/wiki/index.php/English/BuildingWithoutHelper <<< could be useful too
<LaserJock> yes
<theCore> I gotta go sleep, cya later
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<jsgotangco> hey Kamping_Kaiser what's up?
<Kamping_Kaiser> about to try and work out why pam fails for *one* username on a server :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's going to be impossible
<Kamping_Kaiser> same user, added removed 3 times, still on joy. 
<jjesse> is there a sync time for PAM?
<jjesse> i know in Active Directory there is a delay when you remove a username and it syncs across the domain controllers
<Kamping_Kaiser> i thought it was imidate.
<Kamping_Kaiser> *shrug*. 
<jjesse> Kamping_Kaiser: i don't know PAM at all just a thought
<Kamping_Kaiser> worth looking at if i cant get it
<Kamping_Kaiser> so thaniks :)
<theCore> hello there
<jjesse> hello theCore 
<theCore> jjesse: do you work on some doc ?
<jjesse> yes i do, mostly kubuntu docs :)
<theCore> ah, nice
<theCore> on my side, i work on the PackagingGuide
<jjesse> oh how is that going?
<LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
<mdke_> LaserJock, pong
<LaserJock> mdke_: I had a long discussion last night with theCore about the packaging guide
<mdke_> cool
<jjesse> theCore was on here earlier today
<LaserJock> we kinda were thinking that maybe it would be best to start from scratch on the Packaging Guide
<mdke_> ok
<LaserJock> it would help to eleviate the license issues but we also wanted to do it in a different way that will, I think, be much easier on the reader
<mdke_> did you contact Diziet about the developer documentation spec?
<mdke_> dude, seriously don't worry about the licence issues. but if you want to rework it, that's fine
<LaserJock> mdke_: yes, I talked to Diziet a while back and he thought that there wasn't any problem for us to do the Packaging Guide. He thought that there wouldn't be much overlap
<mdke_> oh right
<LaserJock> mdke_: well the license thing wasn't a big deal. I just think that right now it is too similar to the Debian New Maintainer Guide and theCore and I saw that there might be a better way to do it
<mdke_> ok
<mdke_> LaserJock, will you continue working in our repo?
<LaserJock> we made an outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Outline
<LaserJock> mdke_: oh, for sure. I am commited to getting a Packaging Guide in the doc-team repo by the time Dapper is released
<mdke_> awesome
<LaserJock> tomorrow hopefully I will become a Ubuntu member so then it will be a little easier
<jjesse> LaserJock: did i say i would speak up for you? i don't remember if i did or not
<LaserJock> jjesse: you did, but if you can't make it or something that's ok
<mdke_> i'll leave a message with someone
<jjesse> nope still planing on being there
<LaserJock> well, hopefully it won't be to bad. I have a couple of MOTUs to speak for me also.
<mdke_> you'll be fine
<LaserJock> mdke_: anyway, I just wanted talk to you about the Packaging Guide and what thCore and I were thinking
<mdke_> LaserJock, i don't know squat about packaging, but I'll certainly support anything you want to do with the guide
<LaserJock> mdke_: thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-11
<LaserJock> theCore: hi
<theCore> LaserJock, hi
<theCore> LaserJock, i rethinked about the hello packages as examples, and i now think it's a good idea
<theCore> LaserJock, pretty sure about that
<theCore> LaserJock, they quite complete examples
<theCore> they are*
<theCore> LaserJock, have you started something ?
<theCore> (Did you begin something?) <-- it is clearer like that ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: no, I worked on the outline some more. I am going to email the ubuntu-motu list to get feedback on our outline.
<theCore> okay
<LaserJock> but right now I have some real life work to do and I am up for membership tomorrow morning at the CC meeting.
<theCore> i understand
<jsgotangco> hi all
<LaserJock> theCore: did you want to start on something
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> what's up dudes?
<jsgotangco> rob1, ping?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: no much, we were discussing the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> s/no/not/
<theCore> LaserJock, the outline is coming very well
<theCore> LaserJock, yes
<theCore> LaserJock, so where i can start ?
<LaserJock> theCore: at the beginning?
<LaserJock> theCore: are you going to work in XML?
<theCore> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> theCore: How about doing the Introduction?
<theCore> LaserJock, okay
<theCore> LaserJock, we start from scratch ?
<LaserJock> theCore: yes, I think it would be easier if we did
<LaserJock> theCore: you don't have to do it perfectly. Just give it a rough draft
<theCore> LaserJock, okay
<theCore> LaserJock, do we make the guide in multiple file ?
<theCore> LaserJock, or in a single one ?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ping
<jsgotangco> hi
<bhuvan> we're not receiving mails in ubuntu-doc-commits mailing list
<bhuvan> is it wise to add it to cc agenda ?
<jsgotangco> hrmmmm
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, i don't know how its setup at the moment but jdub is the one managing all the ubuntu lists...
<jsgotangco> i can ask hem
<jsgotangco> s/hem/him
<bhuvan> cool
<bhuvan> fwiw, the problem exists since dec 02
<jsgotangco> ahh i was out of the country then
<LaserJock> theCore: sorry, I was working on something else. what do you think? I would think that eventually we will need multiple files but right now it is probably easier to do just one.
<theCore> LaserJock, it's what i thinked
<rob1> if you choose multiple files, use xincludes
<theCore> rob1, i all ready use it
<theCore> *already
<theCore> right now, i'm making the placeholders for the guide
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta get to bed. Email me what you have done when you feel like it. good luck ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, cya later
<LaserJock> cya
<dholbach> hellas
<dholbach> any objections on me doing another docs upload now?
<dholbach> (to dapper)
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> load up the crack machine!
<dholbach> rock'n'roll
<dholbach> 1626 lines of changes since last time
<dholbach> you guys rock
<jsgotangco> dholbach, i've been slacking
<dholbach> come on
<dholbach> you've been busy
<dholbach> and rocking korea business world :)
<jsgotangco> not on docs side :(
* dholbach hugs jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> yeah i got good emails from it
<dholbach> i just read the dvdrip part from the new docs
<jsgotangco> oh that looks bad
<dholbach> could you please have an eye on the docs and if you find stuff that developers could make easier, by applying a patch, PLEASE let us know
<dholbach> write a quick bug report
<dholbach> maybe even refer to your documentation
<jsgotangco> dholbach, make me resist from installing the Xandros box set that was given to me..hehe...
<dholbach> i don't want to be an asshole, but no user should have to do stuff like "sudo gedit /usr/share/applications/dvdrip.desktop"
<dholbach> so please file bug reports for that stuff :)
<jsgotangco> oh missing desktop items?
<dholbach> that's something i found in the docs
<dholbach> and i saw more stuff that we could automate/make easier
<jsgotangco> that's crack
<dholbach> i highly appreciate what you all do
<dholbach> 30,2M doc upload ;)
<dholbach> i hope mdke_ helps me soon to write a quick script that weeds out the stuff not needed in the docs, i get form svn :)
<dholbach> s/form/from
<dholbach> it's up :)
<WaterSevenUb> dholbach, mdke said he was planning to release new ubuntu-docs via -update. Could this http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18050 be solved also in the -update? not sure if the problem lies in the ubuntu-docs package.
<jsgotangco> plan to release?
<dholbach> WaterSevenUb: afaik we have no fix for 18050 yet
<dholbach> and updates to -update must be really really really really safe updates
<WaterSevenUb> dholbach, ok.... thx :-)
<WaterSevenUb> jsgotangco, way of speaking... #rosetta-users #ubuntu-translators mdke's mail.
<WaterSevenUb> #-> mailing list.
<WaterSevenUb> dholbach, this seems to be a broken link... easy to solve though...
<dholbach> cool
<jsgotangco> its really hard to push -update
<jsgotangco> itll have to go with pitti's acid test
<jsgotangco> unless -docs is a universe package
<dholbach> mdz' acid test
<jsgotangco> as well
<jsgotangco> =)
* jsgotangco has rested fully
<jsgotangco> although i'm afraid i'll be flying agian next week
<jsgotangco> (hope not)
<dholbach> what is it next week?
<jsgotangco> oh its work related...in brisbane...
<jsgotangco> hopefully andy fitz is in town :)
<dholbach> :)))
<jsgotangco> how far is romania from berlin?
<jjesse> morning :)
<jsgotangco> morning jjesse :)
<jjesse> probablly not morning where you are at jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> well in a few hours it'll be morning :)
<WaterSevenUb> dholbach, when you click in System, Help, those strings and links that appear for FAQ guide are in what source package? I've looked into ubuntu-doc source and the links are ok...
<dholbach> hm, they should be there
<jjesse> LaserJock: did they vote on you when i was gone?
<jjesse> LaserJock: if not you are working on the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> jjesse: no and yes
<jjesse> LaserJock: ok i had to remember what i was supporting you :)
<LaserJock> jjesse: np
<jsgotangco> mgalvin, ping?
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> mgalvin, how's things? i arrived yesterday...
<mgalvin> going good, cool, i read you blog, sounds like it was fun
<jsgotangco> mgalvin, very...
<jsgotangco> after 6 years i finally get to see snow again
<mgalvin> it snowed a few times here this week ;)
<jsgotangco> yeah although the next day i hated it again
<mgalvin> :)
<jjesse> congrats LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> cheers
<LaserJock> thanks
<jjesse> it is snowing every day this week 
<LaserJock> thanks for all your support guys
<jsgotangco> well the day after it snowed, i remembered why i didn't like it at all in the first place
<mgalvin> LaserJock: congrats
<LaserJock> ok, so who do I need to talk to about getting svn commit access?
<jsgotangco> elmo
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: really, for the doc team repo?
<jsgotangco> yup
<LaserJock> do one of you need to do it?
<jsgotangco> i can send elmo an email requesting for it...elmo will just need your gpg key so he can setup the account and send you the details
<Belutz> jsgotangco, !!
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: that would be great, he already has my gpg key perhaps
<jsgotangco> Belutz, hi, how did your debian conf go?
<Belutz> jsgotangco, hi, finally, i did the talk about edubuntu
<jsgotangco> cool
<Belutz> jsgotangco, and it's not that scary as i thought :p
<jsgotangco> Belutz, well you're empowered to do so...
<Belutz> jsgotangco, and some of the audience ask a lot about edubuntu and willing to help to develop edubuntu
<jsgotangco> Belutz, so well, jdub hinted on an asian tour...
<Belutz> jsgotangco, asian tour? when?
<jsgotangco> Belutz, im going to list down big conferences in the region so i'll need your help
<jsgotangco> and make a sane schedule at least
<Belutz> ok
<Belutz> let me know what should i do
<jsgotangco> Belutz, the key is to duplicate Badger Badger Badger Tour
<jsgotangco> and make an easy route to go with....
<jsgotangco> (it can be pretty hard to fly from jakarta then go to mumbai after 2 days)
<jsgotangco> then go back to syndey
<Belutz> jsgotangco, is there any sponsor for this event?
<jsgotangco> we'll flesh it out further by next year
<jsgotangco> Belutz, its still very early to tell...
<jsgotangco> Belutz, the idea just sprang up after the hard planning we did for seoul
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i see, by the way, how's korea?
<jsgotangco> pretty good
<jsgotangco> have you seen my blog?
<Belutz> jsgotangco, the that is also posted in p.u.c ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i hanged out with a guy from Xandros and the project leader of firefox
<Belutz> yes i've read that :)
<jsgotangco> Belutz, the new one? :)
<jsgotangco> Belutz, the organizer flew us in business class we're not complaining
<jsgotangco> =)
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yes the new one :)
<jsgotangco> its not in-depth but gives you an idea how big it was and the potential market
<Belutz> :-)
<jsgotangco> they payphone thing was fun
<Belutz> hmm how do i upload the slides? i don't have a space
<jsgotangco> xandros just won't show up
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Belutz> yeaaa the payphone is cool
<Belutz> hahaha
<jsgotangco> Belutz, i know you can upload to the wiki but i don't know how
<Belutz> jsgotangco, hmm i see, i already upload some of the pics into flickr
<Belutz> the breezy cd's are gone in less than 10 minutes :p
<jsgotangco> link?
<Belutz> wait
<Belutz> http://www.flickr.com/photos/belutz/sets/1524102/
<Belutz> i haven't upload the crowd in our booth
<jsgotangco> edubuntu laptop whoaaa
<Belutz> it's mine ;)
<Belutz> too bad i don't have that "ubuntu sticker on laptop" :p
<jsgotangco> mine doesn't either..its either the gnu sticker from stallman or a firefox sticker
<jsgotangco> i'll add you as a flickr contact =)
<Belutz> well i got a debian conference sticker, but i want the ubuntu one to be the one sticking on my laptop :p
<Belutz> jsgotangco, ok :)
* jsgotangco sees pretty people in graduation dinner pics
<Belutz> lol :D
<Belutz> they are my classmates
<Madpilot> Burgwork: pink
<Madpilot> ping, even...
<Burgwork> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> Burgwork: morning
<mdke_> evening
<Burgwork> salut mdke_ 
<Madpilot> not here - that CC meeting started at 0600 my time :P
<mdke_> ah crap
<mdke_> forgot about that
<mdke_> did LaserJock get through ok?
* mdke_ reads, good
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> I dragged myself out of bed, wanted to see what the CC meetings were like before I subject myself to the Membership grilling sometime in the new year
<mdke_> cool
<mdke_> Madpilot, i was thinking recently perhaps we can get together with rob1 and have a quick meeting about some things on the desktopguide
<mdke_> i want to do some writing on it but I really want to get a couple of general policy things clear in my head
<Madpilot> mdke_: sure - maybe mail the list so we can arrange a time?
* mdke_ nods
<Burgwork> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=99683
<Madpilot> mdke_: where are you located, timezone-wise?
<mdke_> utc
* mdke_ clicks on Burgwork 's link, tentatively
<Madpilot> that's easy to remember, then ;)
<Burgwork> Madpilot, feel sorry for the man, he lives in london
<Madpilot> nah, there are far worse places
<mdke_> sure
<mdke_> canada for one
<mdke_> everyone has two halves to their head
<mdke_> i saw it on south park
<Madpilot> sure, south park = gospel truth :P
<mdke> yeap
<mdke> they have some accurate things about british people too
<mdke> ok -> home
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, no, i don't think we can fix that in an -update. It's language updates only I think.
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, apart from the fact that I don't have any idea how to fix it at all
<mdke> just read the portugese!
<mdke> ok -> home
<WaterSevenUb> mdke,portugese=portuguese:-)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yeah.. I've been looking to the source of ubuntu-docs and I can't find anything wrong.
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, perhaps something with yelp.
<jjesse> are we at the point that the desktopguide is set enough to copy and start changing for kubuntu?
<Madpilot> at least in the common-tasks.xml, there are still a fair number of sections that just have "To be written." in them...
<jjesse> well if the have to be written,then they might be distro specific?
<jjesse> its been awhile since i looked at the desktopguide
<Madpilot> it's fairly Gnome-specific
<jjesse> so if those parts are gnome-specific then i can start going after them in a kde way
<jjesse> sorry for the delay that's what you get when the boss shows up :)
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> certainly the parts I've re-written are pure Gnome - Synaptic, Nautilus, Serpentine, etc etc...
<jjesse> i sent rob1 a question via emailthe other day haven't heard back 
<Madpilot> jjesse: mdke was talking about an IRC meeting for desktop guide; we should organize a time thru the mailing list
<jjesse> Madpilot: i would be intereseted in that
<Anoop> hi anybody there?
<mdke> Anoop, hello
<Anoop> hi i have a prob with ubuntu
<mdke> Anoop, what sort of problem?
<Anoop> be patient with me and i will explain this serious prob i am having
<mdke> Anoop, if it is related to documentation, I can help
<mdke> Anoop, otherwise, you need #ubuntu
<Anoop> i installed breezy badger on a toshiba satellite m-45 s355 laptop
<Anoop> k
<Anoop> not documentation
<mdke> :)
<Anoop> so i should join 3ubuntu
<Anoop> sorry #ubuntu then
<mdke> yeah they will help you out
<Anoop> thanks u very much
<mdke> np
<mdke> good luclk
<mdke> luck*
<bshumate> hiyas!
<bshumate> how do i use the role attribute of the emphasis tag in the context of Ubuntu documentation?
<mdke> hi bshumate 
<mdke> i don't know, but I can point you to a guide that does
<bshumate> ok!
* mdke digs through his bookmarks
<mdke> bshumate, it should be somewhere in here
<mdke> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<mdke> http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html
<mdke> maybe that is useful too
<mdke> actually, probably way more useful
<bshumate> rockin...i am really getting into the Docbook...and viewing in Yelp is so much better than guessing at what the XML ends up rendering as....thanks!
<bshumate> ahh, so the role attribute is a generic thing then it appears...i thought maybe the contents of role would be used in a manner specific to ubuntu.  boy have i got a lot to learn...
<mdke> heh
<mdke> bshumate, sounds like you're doing fine to me
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-04
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm looking for documentation on Ktorrent. iirc, it was written for and sent upstream
<nixternal> we don't do that kind of documentation, but yes it is upstream somewhere, it is up to the KTorrent guys to build it and get it into KDE
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i know but i think you said someone wrote it
<Admiral_Chicago> need help with documentation?
<nixternal> we always need help with documentation
<Admiral_Chicago> i figured as much. i noticed "switching from windows to linux" is WIP, it seems interesting could I help with that
<Admiral_Chicago> btw, did you get my PM?
<nixternal> what do you think?
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: don't look at those old pages, but we have planned a Switching to Kubuntu one that hasn't even started, there is one already for Ubuntu, which I am sure could probably use some editing maybe. i haven't looked at it much
<nixternal> one guy pretty much wrote it
<Admiral_Chicago> well nixternal feel free to email me with documentation stuff if you get overloaded with it
<Admiral_Chicago> hmm Kubuntu sounds interesting, KDE is the best
<nixternal> shhh
<nixternal> no DE wars needed
* Admiral_Chicago ducks
<nixternal> ya, since there are only 3 of us in here
<nixternal> 4
<Admiral_Chicago> ah i figured out why my bug was happening
<jjesse> evening
<nixternal> evening
<jjesse> hello
<mdke> good morning
<tonyyarusso> dang
<Madpilot> mdke, morning
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, when the Europeans are saying 'Good morning', you're up way too late!
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: I know.
<Mithrandir> morning, mdke
<tonyyarusso> The sad part is I'm nowhere near going to bed - I don't think I will until tomorrow night.
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Madpilot> Um... someone just translated the first couple paragraphs of UserDocumentation into Polish...
<Madpilot> at least I think it's Polish...
<mihakriket> I am new to helping with the wiki documents. I have finished editing the 'commandline howto' document. I was wondering if anybody to take a look at the document for me a provided me some feedback. Again this is my first wiki I have updated. TIA
<crimsun> reading.
<crimsun> nice work!
<crimsun> I'll touch up some minor grammatical corrections as I go through.
<mihakriket> crimsun: thank you for the feedback. I was thinking on editing the advanced commandline document as it also appears in the CategoryCleanup
<crimsun> feel free
<crimsun> It'll take me about 25 more minutes to run through this one.
<dgold> is lilo used as the defaul boot-manager in any version of ubuntu anymore? The install guide refers solely to it, and only mentions grub as an afterthought
<mihakriket> crimsun: I will wait until you are completed, so I can see what mistakes I made and avoid making the same ones again.
<crimsun> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommandlineHowto is completed.
<crimsun> dgold: for certain configurations, lilo is required.
<crimsun> dgold: off the top of my head, installations that use LVM require lilo.
<glatzor> mdke: when do you plan to release new translated documentation for edgy?
<mihakriket> crimsun: thank you for your help. I will look over the document.
<crimsun> thank you!
<dgold> crimsun: but it isn't the defauly mode for all alternate-installs, therefore the documentation should specify same.
<crimsun> dgold: please correct as appropriate
<dgold> wilko
<dgold> is the installation guide in svn repo - unable to locate it...
<dgold> wiki describe installguide as being under ubuntu-doc/generic , but it aitn't there
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<nixternal> hola
<LaserJock> hi nixternal, how's it going?
<nixternal> just got a new puppy
<LaserJock> sweet, what kind?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes
<mdke> dgold: no, it is maintained by the installer developer in the "installation-guide" package
<mdke> glatzor: no plans at the moment
<LaserJock> mdke: just wanted to say that the Open Week session seemed to go OK
<LaserJock> I just used your stuff from the wiki and nixternal and I answered questions
<mdke> great, nice work and thanks for doing that
<mdke> any interest?
<LaserJock> moderately
<LaserJock> we had a few people that seemed like they were interested
<LaserJock> wiki work, etc.
<mdke> that would be good
<LaserJock> I think there was one person interested in the forums->wiki stuff
<mdke> nice
<glatzor> mdke: the desktop-guide is now completely translated in German
<nixternal> LaserJock: i have no clue what kind of dog it is. some kind of terrorist..i mean terrier
<LaserJock> haha
<fumbalah> Hiya
<mdke> glatzor: cool.
* mdke gets his whip out for more comments on the mailing list
<mdke> swish
<mdke> swish
* Mithrandir tickles mdke 
<mdke> Mithrandir: dangerous
* mdke swishes in Mithrandir's direction
<Mithrandir> oyh, I did comment on the mailing list.  I've even gone so far as to have subscribed now. :-P
* mdke retracts his swish
<Burgwork> my job is killing me today
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure what you're soliciting comments for, but I've commented on the "Developer review of docs" thread.
<Mithrandir> Burgwork: shoot back
<Burgwork> no, I just did
<Burgwork> just waiting for the company president to phone me, asking me what I was saying in my email
<mdke> Mithrandir: yeah, I saw that, that's great. I was after comments from docpeople in the topic based help and articleinfo threads. No need for you to comment on those :)
<LaserJock> mdke: do you think we can do it in a way that still shows who maintains what?
<LaserJock> wrt, articleinfo
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, we can include lists of maintainers in contribute.xml
<mdke> but if we switch, I don't think we can maintain a list of who has contributed to what (as opposed to who maintains what)
<LaserJock> would it be possible to put that info somewhere else?
<LaserJock> it would be nice to acknowledge contributions
<LaserJock> or will be just have a list of contributors?
<mdke> they would be acknowledged as contributors to "the documentation" but not linked to a particular document
<mdke> I tend to think that's ok, but if others disagree, I don't have a problem
<LaserJock> I think that would be ok
<LaserJock> people often contribute to more then one doc
<LaserJock> and I tend to see them as contibutors to the doc team
<mdke> i think actually it has a kind of advantage
<mdke> people are seen as part of the team
<LaserJock> yes, I agree
<LaserJock> it also should help with consistency
<mdke> LaserJock: agreed. Have a play around with branches/tbh/common/C/contributors.xml and see what you think
<mdke> I guess something like:
<mdke> Ubuntu Documentation Team members:
<mdke>  * Matthew East (Ubuntu documentation)
<mdke>  * Jordan Mantha (Packaging guide)
<mdke> Other contributors:
<mdke>  * Joe Blogs
<mdke> etc
<mdke> that way we can add all the K/Ed/X guys too
<mdke> btw, LaserJock, have you met the Edubuntu docs guy?
<mdke> it's great that someone is on board for that
<LaserJock> mdke: which guy?
<LaserJock> sorry, wasn't paying attention
<nixternal> willdvl or whatever his name is
<nixternal> him and i have been chatting
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<LaserJock> I'd really like to see Edubuntu docs really rock in Feisty
<LaserJock> even little ones
<LaserJock> I think the Handbook was a rather large undertaking and people choked
<LaserJock> hi jono
<jono> hey
<nixternal> hiya jono
<jono> hey
<nixternal> dude, this dog is satan
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> ya the handbook has been a tough one
<nixternal> i know sbalenev or however you spell his name put a lot of work in on the LTSP stuff
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> and that's pretty cool considering he does a large part of the actual LTSP development
<nixternal> i have been beat lately...im trying to contrib a little more here and there
<LaserJock> yeah, we don't want you pulling a Jorge on us
<nixternal> never
<nixternal> if i go back to windows, permission granted on ordering my assasination
<nixternal> if only i was so worthy ;)
* mdke orders nixternal's assassination anyway
<nixternal> yay
<LaserJock> haha
<LaserJock> I tell you though, there's been a number of times where I've though "I don't need this crap, I'm outta here"
<LaserJock> but I hang in there
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> I gotta tone it down though
<nixternal> see, with Kubuntu stuff, I never get the feeling, but it is some of the politics and at times a feeling of elite'ism (im not even going to act like I know how to spell that one) that gets me at times
<nixternal> but i enjoy hanging out, learning new stuff, and having mdke yell at me for committing to the edgy branch, even within a week of being told the first time ;)
<LaserJock> shesh, these kids will never learn, right mdke? ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> i think i have you all on the age side of the kid'dom
<nixternal> not by much though
<nixternal> so im like the older kid
* mdke nods generally
<LaserJock> yeah, that mental age thing keeps getting you :p
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> 32 on the outside, 12 on the inside
<mdke> 32? that's way old
<nixternal> but if i remember correctly, mdke and myself have some killer HAIRdo's
<nixternal> LaserJock: you have a hairdon't
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> hahaha
<mdke> that's libel, my hair is impeccable
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> mdke brings the lawyer out in himself to save face on the hair
<LaserJock> nixternal: I have hair ... sorta
<nixternal> hehe
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-05
<Ubug2> New bug: #74481 in ubuntu-docs "Many scrollkeeper cron.monthly errors." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74481
<mdke> Mithrandir: morning. Would that sort of bug (^^) justify a stable release update?
<mdke> easy fix
<Mithrandir> mdke: unsure; ask mdz or cjwatson who are part of the SRU team.  I'm just handling archive bits of it.
<mdke> ok.
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-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
* Signon time  :    Tue Dec  5 15:48:49 2006
* Signoff time :    Tue Dec  5 15:52:14 2006
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-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
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<Ubugtu> New bug: #74555 in ubuntu-docs "Stable release update" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/74555
<mdke> mpt: can you comment on the wiki:TopicBasedHelp/TopLevelCategories? I'd appreciate your feedback. A few things don't obviously fit into the categories: printing, desktop configuration (that isn't already in the upstream guide), partitions and booting.
<mpt> mdke, any feedback I'll give will be of the form "be more like <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/Contents>" :-)
<mpt> though that page needs a bit of updating now
<mpt> and I can make a few more tweaks to shorten some of those titles even further
<mpt> Actually, TopLevelCategories is right in that adding/removing software should be at the top level
<mpt> but, conversely, "Using your desktop" is a non-goal so wouldn't work as a category
<mdke> mpt: right, but we need to work with the material we have. UbuntuHelp/Contents has a lots of material that doesn't exist right now
<mdke> anyway, lots is similar
<mdke> mpt: the reason I want to get you involved is because I want to start implementing this
* mdke sleeps
<mpt> Me too :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-06
<nixternal> man, i am going through the handbook, restructuring it after the KDG & UDG..the content is loaded with :)
* mdke mornings
<robotgeek> morning mdke
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<robotgeek> i'm just about to go to bed.
<robotgeek> hi Burgundavia :)
<robotgeek> anyways, night all. and cya in about 10 days or so!
<mdke> have fun
<robotgeek> thanks
<mdke> mpt: around?
<mpt> mdke, yo
<mdke> yo indeed.
<mpt> sorry
<mpt> mdke, Yes sir!
<mpt> :-)
<mdke> eh?
<mpt> nm
* mdke nods
<mdke> anyway. Still bugging you about topic based help. We need to try and get these categories sorted
<mpt> ok
<mpt> should I add comments to the wiki page?
<mpt> or mail the mailing list?
<mdke> either. A tricky question seems to be what to do with the Gnome user guide
<mdke> or equivalents for Kubuntu
<mpt> There is no good answer pre-Mallard
<mpt> but then there never has been, TopicBasedHelp or not
<mpt> hmm
<mdke> right, but there's no point not using the material
<mdke> at the absolute worst we can fork it
<mdke> and turn specific sections that we want to use into documents, rather than using it all
<mpt> Well, it will always show up in search results
<mdke> some parts of it fit well with "documents, files and folders" in your categories
<mdke> also "customising settings"
<mdke> mpt: also, you can take a look at the sandbox implementation at branches/topic-based-help, if you like
<mpt> cool
<mpt> I saw some mention of a bzr repository
<mdke> Riddell was pushing it. I tried to download it but gave up after nothing happened in 30 minutes
<mpt> ok
<mpt> I've reported various bugs that bzr's progress feedback isn't quite as good as it could be
<mdke> yes, it's appalling - I can understand that downloading the whole history will take a long time (although I didn't at the time), but it doesn't tell you anything, except this 1/4 ========= stuff
<Burgundavia> big repos take ages
<Burgundavia> the marketing one took 20 minutes
<mpt> Unfortunately that first part, the revision history, has no feedback at all
* mdke hugs svn
<mpt> At least, that's the case for a push, probably the same for a pull
<mpt> bug 60171
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 60171 in bzr "bzr push appears to do nothing for several minutes" [Low,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60171
<Mithrandir> mpt: it ought to be fairly trivial to first get an estimate of the size you need to pull and then use the progress bar against that.
<mpt> yes
<mdke> hi lloydinho_
<Mithrandir> if somebody has time to proofread the herd 1 announcement on http://err.no/tmp/herd-1.txt, that'd be good.
<mpt> mdke, commented on the wiki page
<mdke> thanks
<mpt> Mithrandir, my only suggestions would be (1) change "system or who" to "system, or anyone who" and (2) "as images" to "images"
<Mithrandir> there's not supposed to be a comma in the first one, is there?
<Mithrandir> mpt: I rewrote the second bit a little.
<mpt> Without the comma, one's brain spends a second or two trying to make a stable system itself be comfortable running into breakage
<mpt> actually, that's not true
<mpt> It's the "anyone" that solves that problem
<mpt> The comma makes the sentence, now with its extra "anyone", breathable :-)
<mdke> mpt: at some stage today I'll comment on your comments... got to run now, thanks
<lloydinho_> oh, hey guys. Sorry I haven't been around much lately. University deadlines and all...
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<mpt> Hello lloydinho_
<mpt> Look at the mess we've started :-)
<mpt> http://codex.gallery2.org/index.php/Codex:Reorganization -- card-sorting for categorization of help topics
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm trying to edit this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FaqOnIrc to add this information https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUpgrade but the inter wiki linking isn't worknig
<Admiral_Chicago> can anyone help?
<mpt> Admiral_Chicago, you could just use a normal link
<mpt> [https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUpgrade link text] 
<Admiral_Chicago> mpt: i'm not too good with wikis, what is the formating [www] link right?
<Admiral_Chicago> text is the description?
<Admiral_Chicago> nevermind i got it
<Admiral_Chicago> thanks
* mdke evenings
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<nixternal> doc.ubuntu.com stopped building it seems on November 19th
<mdke> check if there is an invalid document in one of the build targets
<mdke> if "make all" doesn't build, the cronjob for the relevant build will break
<nixternal> roger
<nixternal> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-07
<nixternal> oy
<XiXaQ> In the document https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XenVirtualMachine/XenOnUbuntuEdgy, there is a string that refers to nothing: (where XX is the kernel version) but in the line above, actual kernel versions are used.
<XiXaQ> Under the heading domU, one can read this line: Xen-tools can set up Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS systems, and also any other system if you give it a proper tarball.  It would be nice if someone could elaborate on that. What is a proper tarball in this context and where can I get one?
<willvdl> are there any discussions around "tagging/categorising" community wiki doc according to which release they apply to?
<Burgwork> nothing yet, but what are you're ideas?
<willvdl> well it's tricky on a wiki
<willvdl> just thinking aloud: on something that is heavy devel like LTSP setup
<willvdl> supporting docs would be quite different from DApper to Edgy to Feisty
<Burgwork> usually we try and group them on a single page
<willvdl> on h.u.c/community?
<willvdl> the problem I guess would be maintenance
<Burgwork> yes
<willvdl> unless one could script away deprecated tags
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-08
<Burgwork> we should do that, yes
<willvdl> very late. I'm off, ciao
<Riddell> Burgwork: about?
<Burgwork> yep
<Riddell> Burgwork: UWN being edited just now?
<Burgwork> right now, currently still in gobby
<Riddell> Burgwork: could you add that we have a kubuntu meeting and mhb became a member https://launchpad.net/people/martin.bohm
<Burgwork> when was the meeting?
<Riddell> just finished
<Riddell> s/have/had/
<Burgwork> ah right, that will be for 25 then
<Riddell> oh, it's actually being kept to the dates even when it's delayed
<Burgwork> yep
<Riddell> ok, I'll edit it myself at some point then, thanks
<Burgwork> you can start 25 and do it
<Riddell> or I could go to sleep
<Burgwork> you could
<Burgwork> I will do it, if you email me the specifics
<Riddell> it's a difficult decision, but the sleep has it I'm afraid
<mdke> Burgundavia: next time he asks, there is material about tagging pages according to release at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<Burgundavia> ah, right
<mdke> actually, I'll mail himk
<nixternal> hola doc'ers
<jjesse> hola nixternal
<nixternal> yay it's jjesse everybody :)
<jjesse> grin just cause i'm home today taking a day off to fight a cold :(
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> i think the dog finally learned not to chew on power cables
<jjesse> well thats good
<nixternal> i think it popped him, gave him a nice tingle
<nixternal> he walks around the power cable now
<nixternal> and looks at it
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> i wish my feet would shock him now
<nixternal> so he would leave the toes alone
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-09
<somerville32> Is there an "SRU" policy for documentation?
<nixternal> somerville32: no there isn't. documentation bugs are not high-impact
<somerville32> Would the SRU team still approve requests?
<nixternal> requests for documentation no
<nixternal> due to all of the translation stuff as well
<somerville32> Oh yeah
<somerville32> It is just that the Xubuntu welcome page in Firefox has the wrong version.
<nixternal> does it still display Dapper?
<somerville32> Yup.
<nixternal> ya, everyone was told about it prior to string freezes as well...i know edubuntu got theirs fixed in time
<somerville32> :[
<mdke> nixternal: that's not right - if you see somerville32 again, let him know that SRU requests relating to documentation are dealt with in the same way as for other applications
<mdke> documentation bugs can be high impact
<nixternal> mdke: they are high impact if they tell someone to do something to their system, a wrong version isn't high impact
<abattoir> hello, does someone know whom i should contact/where i should go when i'm unable to log into the wiki?
<abattoir> the same id/password works for launchpad
<mdke> nixternal: right, so there are bugs in documentation that can quality for a sru in the usual way.
<mdke> abattoir: likely to be a browser cache problem. Try clearing your saved passwords/cache for that page
<mdke> nixternal: s/quality/qualify
<nixternal> gotcha mdke, i should have clarified it better
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-10
<somerville32> Who should I talk to about getting svn access?
<Burgundavia> get us some patches
<somerville32> Alright.
<somerville32> Where is the current Feisty documentation for xubuntu at?
<Burgundavia> in the repo
<Burgundavia> built at doc.ubuntu.com
<somerville32> doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ doesn't exist
<Burgundavia> you are right
<Burgundavia> poke mdke
* somerville32 pokes mdke with a fork.
<XiXaQ> On the guide https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Dovecot, it sais: (If you installed Postfix with instructions from the [WWW]  previous wiki, then chose mbox.)
<XiXaQ> My question is, why?! I want Maildir..
<XiXaQ> if I choose Maildir, do I break the postfix install?
<XiXaQ> it would be nice if someone would take the time to elaborate on tha.
<Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
<Burgundavia> I suggest you try
<XiXaQ> Burgundavia, I will, but that's beside the point. It's unclear and I think many readers will get confused or even scared by such statements.
<mdke> XiXaQ: it's simply that the wiki page referred to contains instructions for setting up mbox.
<mdke> I suppose
<mdke> Burgundavia: you poked?
<mdke> ah, ok
<mdke> XiXaQ: if you figure out a way to improve it, for example by improving the postfix page, I'm sure that will be appreciated
<XiXaQ> it's difficult for me. I don't understand half of what I'm reading. I'm just doing as I'm told. :)
<mdke> ah.
<mdke> did you use the "previous wiki" to install Postfix?
<XiXaQ> yes.
<XiXaQ> but now I'm not sure I should have, cause I've been advised to use Maildir.
<mdke> tbh, I don't see why it shouldn't work with Maildir
<mdke> I don't understand why that note was added
<XiXaQ> could it be thiese configuration options in /etc/postfix/main.cfg?
<XiXaQ> mailbox_command = procmail -a "$EXTENSION"
<XiXaQ> mailbox_size_limit = 0
<mdke> no, I don't think so
<mdke> damn those pages need a lot of work.
<mdke> I tell you what.
<mdke> XiXaQ: use this page, it should be a lot more reliable: https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/email-services.html
<XiXaQ> thanks :)
<XiXaQ> uh... /C/email? I would have guessed /E/email :)
<mdke> C is a language
<mdke> it means the default language, in this case English
<XiXaQ> ah :)
<mdke> anyway, you don't have to guess, it's linked on https://help.ubuntu.com
<XiXaQ> is that a newer version of the documents I've been reading?
<mdke> no, it's a more reliable one, hopefully.
<XiXaQ> no, actually, it has the same weakness. It too, does not explain how to configure postfix for maildir or mbox.
<XiXaQ> but Dovecot refers to that configuration..
<XiXaQ> You should configure your Mail Trasport Agent (MTA) to transfer the incoming mail to this type of mailbox if it is different from the one you have configured.
<mdke> damn
<mdke> please file a bug here: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+filebug and hopefully you'll get a quick answer from someone who knows what they are talking about
<XiXaQ> oh, is there a bugtracker for docs? That's nice. I've found a number of them.
<mdke> great - the more bugs the merrier
<XiXaQ> done, https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/75215
<XiXaQ> oh, I have another bug to file. :=
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 75215 in ubuntu-doc "Difficulties following email guides. (Postfix/Dovecot)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<Ubugtu> New bug: #75215 in ubuntu-doc "Difficulties following email guides. (Postfix/Dovecot)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/75215
<abattoir> hello, i'm unable to login into the wiki(says, Sorry, Wrong Password), the same password works with launchpad...
<abattoir> i was asked to clear the cookies yesterday, but this is a fresh install where i haven't logged in before
<abattoir> i think the issue was because i changed my email id in launchpad, can anyone point me in the right direction?
<abattoir> nvm, clicking on 'Save Changes' under Wiki Names in LP seems to sort it out
<abattoir> thanks
<nixternal> ls
<nixternal> oops
<poningru> nixternal: rofl
<nixternal> heh, i am giving a bzr presentation for our LUG and was in the wrong konsole
<somerville32> mdke_, ping
<mdke_> somerville32: hello
<somerville32> mdke_, doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu is 404
<mdke_> not for me
<somerville32> Where oh where has the Xubuntu documentation gone?
<mdke_> it hasn't gone anywhere
<mdke_> it simply was never there, until today, when I saw you mention it, and fixed the situation
<mdke_> (see mailing list)
* somerville32 goes to check e-mail.
<mdke_> http://doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/
<mdke_> bbl
<somerville32> Thanks
* somerville32 waves.
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm looking for a link for the community clean up page
<Admiral_Chicago> anyone know what i'm talking about / has a link?
<Admiral_Chicago> google isn't helping
<Admiral_Chicago> ah i see
<Admiral_Chicago> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup
<Admiral_Chicago> is what i wanted to find
<jjesse> hello
<Burgundavia> hey jjesse
<jjesse> hello Burgundavia
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-03
<ubotu> New bug: #120762 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Documentation improvment for network install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120762
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-04
<rledge21> would anyone know where I could learn more about making a desktop applet?
<posingaspopular> making?
<posingaspopular> you might want to ask in #ubuntu-devel for that one
<rledge21> okay, thanks
<kgoetz> i'd suggest a channel for <your desktop environment>
<rledge21> gnome it is
<kgoetz>  /server irc.gnome.org would be the place to look :)
<rledge21> thanks :)
<j1mc> i can assign colors to my gmail tags now.  man, gmail keeps coming up with new stuff.
<j1mc> oops - wrong channel. :)
<posingaspopular> smooth j1mc
 * oldmanstan beats j1mc with a sock full of ping pong balls
<somerville32> :]
<somerville32> The new version is _way_ too slow for my old beast
<j1mc> oldmanstan: you there?
<oldmanstan> no
<oldmanstan> wait, yes i am
<j1mc> can i email you an xml doc file for you to see if it validates on your computer?
<oldmanstan> sure thing
<j1mc> i tried a ulink insteal of an xref to fix a validation issue - it works on my computer, but i want to make sure it works on someone else's.
<j1mc> i don't want my directory structure to be something messes things up.
<oldmanstan> go fo it
<j1mc> sent.  thanks, george.
<oldmanstan> hmm
<oldmanstan> i get a bunch of external entity errors
<j1mc> really??
<oldmanstan> but it's not in the right place in the tree so that's prolly why
<j1mc> on what lines.
<j1mc> what is not in the right place in the tree?
<oldmanstan> lines 1 and 5, so yeah, it's prolly cuz i didn't stick it in the tree structure
<oldmanstan> i just put it in a random directory and validated it
<j1mc> ah, ok.
<j1mc> /xubuntu/switching/C/installing.xml
<j1mc> i don't think that the validator actually validates a ulink.
<j1mc> after all, for it to do so, it would have to go out to a website to make sure the website were there.
<j1mc> so as long as the ulink is correct in syntax, it will validate.  (i think)
<oldmanstan> yep, stuck it in the right place and it validates peachy
<j1mc> ok.  i'll load it into yelp, and see if clicking on the link brings me to the dualboot page.
<j1mc> if it doesn't, then i'll have to fix stuff.  otherwise, i should be ok.  thanks, oldmanstan
<oldmanstan> no prob
<oldmanstan> glad to see somebody getting stuff done :)
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> i think i'm going to send a note out to the doc list about this one.
<j1mc> i can't get the link to work.
<oldmanstan> weird, does it work but not connect? or just totally not work?
<j1mc> it says the uri is invalid, even though the path is valid.
<j1mc> (i've modified it since i sent it to you)
<oldmanstan> strange
<mdke> sommer: re your conversation with nixternal about help links, yelp uses 'type="help" url="ghelp:docname#section"'
<sommer> mdke: thanks it makes sense now.
<sommer> mdke: okay... Now I think I get it.  thanks again
<bogey-> what what up, bogey in da house!>!>
<sommer> mdke: I brought up updating doc.u.c at the server meeting... didn't get much love though
<sommer> mdke: just an fyi... thanks for your help with that.
<mdke> sommer: cheers, every little helps. I'm stressing the sysadmins
<mdke> sommer: do you want to investigate the question of how to convert docbook to txt or man/info pages for the serverguide? I looked into it and found that it's not as easy as I thought
<mdke> sommer: about the best way was to generate html and then run it through "lynx -dump" to get a text file, but it's pretty ugly
<mdke> sommer: there are various docbook2man tools around but I didn't succeed in getting to grips with why they didn't work
 * mdke drifts off again
<ubotu> New bug: #161787 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Gnome Sound Preferences help refers to a system bell, but it's called system beep." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161787
<kgoetz> actually, its caled a bell..
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-05
<sommer> mdke: sure, I"' I was actually thinking about that the other day.
<sommer> mdke: woops meant to say I'll look into the text version of the guide
<ubotu> New bug: #165145 in ubuntu-docs (main) "No hardware compatibility list included in manual. (Gutsy)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/165145
<sommer> hey all, is the 7.10 installation guide online?
<posingaspopular> there should be
<posingaspopular> for which distro? ubuntu
<sommer> posingaspopular: yep, I found 7.06: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/
<sommer> 7.04 rather
<sommer> but if you change 7.04 to 7.10... no dice
<seisen> https://help.ubuntu.com/ is this what you are looking for
<posingaspopular> ah yea i thought that was already done
<sommer> seisen: no the actual installation guide... I don't think the Doc Team has control of it
<posingaspopular> erm released
<sommer> the package is available... I was just looking for somewhere to link to
<seisen> I think they are still waiting no Canonical
<seisen> *on
<sommer> gotcha... I'll just assume the url will be the same
<sommer> I guess it can always be changed later
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-06
<poningru> halp
<poningru> if I want to name a page
<poningru> that has iSCSI in the name
<poningru> how should I name it?
<poningru> in the wiki I mean
<poningru> halp
<sommer> why wouldn't iSCSI work?
<sommer> what's the whole title you're thinking of?
<poningru> you know CamelCase
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportIScsi
<poningru> I dont know how to do it!!!
<poningru> err sorry for the exclamation
<poningru> MainInclusionReportiSCSI
<poningru> is that ok??
<sommer> poningru: MainInclusionReportiSCSI looks good to me
<sommer> striclty speaking MoinMoin links don't have to be camel case
<sommer> you'll just need to do ["MainInclusionReportiSCSI"] when linking from another article.
<sommer> but I'll bet MainInclusionReportiSCSI works fine... I don't think it will notice that lower case "i".
<sommer> also I think title searchs are case insensitive
<poningru> ok sweet
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-08
<codemutant> hy.. i just got my bluetooth gprs dialup internet working using fiesty!!
<codemutant> feisty
<codemutant> it works great.. i am sure it must be documented right??
<codemutant> or is there a way i could help??
<ubotu> New bug: #174886 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Hardy Alpha 1 Release Notes has no links to daily builds" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174886
<ubotu> New bug: #174902 in ubuntu-doc "Gnome styleguide links out of date" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174902
<mdke> /win 12
<mdke> gah
<j1mc> win 12?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-09
<posingaspopular> hey all. I'm editing wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Events/PackagingJams and the formatting is wrnog
<posingaspopular> is there anynoe who can help?
<mdke> posingaspopular: I'll have a look
<posingaspopular> thanks mdke, i have to go to bed, but if you want to msg me, pm or I have logging enabed.
<mdke> posingaspopular: it's done
<tko_> hi
<tko_> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-02
<czajkowski> .c
<czajkowski> .c
<liz_> reboot
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-03
<j1mc> anyone thinking of going to this: http://www.winwriters.com/ohc/
<jjesse> j1mc: no money for travel/conferences :)
<j1mc> jjesse: the little one needs food, eh?  :)
<jjesse> yup, food, and clothes, and more importantly diapers
<j1mc> i just found out about that site yesterday, and it looks like a lot of the stuff may be windows-focused, but it's neat to see that there is this whole field of study that looks at writing system docs.
<j1mc> versus just some guy who can cobble together a few lines of xml and push them up to a server.  (i.e., me)
<j1mc> :)
<jjesse> you mean most of all people on the team :)
<j1mc> :)
<jjesse> my wife was a technical writer for an aerospace company before the child was bon
<jjesse> *born
<j1mc> cool!
<jjesse> lot of secret/top secret stuff she couldn't tell me what she was working on
<j1mc> it costs $1000 USD to attend that documentation conference.  :/
<j1mc> that's the early-bird registration fee.
<l3on> Hi all... someone can say me what is the font used in this image: https://help.ubuntu.com/htdocs/ubuntunew/img/logo.png ??
<l3on> mdke: did you make the image, right?
 * jgoguen is away: Working hard at considering the small details of whatever I'm working on
 * jgoguen is back (gone 00:55:47)
 * jgoguen is away: Food time
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-04
 * jgoguen is away: Re-doing history notes...
 * jgoguen is away: Supper
 * jgoguen is back (gone 00:12:00)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-06
<l3on> Hi all, some one can tell me how favion ico in help.ubuntu.com was setted up?
<l3on> s/some one/someone/;s/setted/set/
<j1mc> l3on: what question do you have?
<j1mc> do you know how to set a favicon up for a regular website?
<l3on> on help.ubuntu.com a "favicon.ico" appears, but in html code there is no reference to it...
<l3on> no, just on ubuntu documentation. I'm trying to build the documentation for help.ubuntu-it.org
<j1mc> l3on: you only need to put a favicon.ico out onto the web server, and the icon gets put into the address bar automatically by the browser.
<l3on> just take a quick look to -> help.ubuntu-it.org/ubuntu810.html . There's no favicon.ico!
<l3on> Ah ok, so I have to contact sysadmin, well... I will die befor see the favicon ico on help.ubuntu-it.org :D
<l3on> tnx j1mc :).
<j1mc> heh.  ok.  good luck.
<l3on> j1mc: and if would I set up a favicon.ico in traditional-way ? what do I do?
<l3on> for documentation I means.
<j1mc> l3on: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/howto-favicon
<j1mc> would that help?
<l3on> j1mc: problem was that I don't know were <head> is in the documentation source code!... I'm looking at ubuntu-banner.xsl, but there is not here!
<l3on> *where
<j1mc> l3on: look at method 2
<l3on> I'm reading, tnx. :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-30
<trijntje> jjesse, are you there?
<jjesse> sometimes
<jjesse> whats up?
<trijntje> I had a question about the printer section in Karmic, I was wondering if the doc-team still considers it up to date
<jjesse> for ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs?
<trijntje> kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> it probablly isn't i know nixternal and i are working on redoig them
<jjesse> you want to re-write it?
<jjesse> cause that would be cool
<trijntje> I wanted to translate them but it seems that it is fully outdated, but it wasn't listed in that bug about outdated docs
<jjesse> if you do the translation now how would it get to karmic?  i don't know the translation proces much
<trijntje> I believe changes should be imported once a month, but I'm still new on the team, so i'm not sure
<trijntje> but i was talking to the new member of your team a few day's ago and he said that you guy's were thinking about what you wanted with the translation of the karmic docs for kubuntu
<lxuser_> back
<trijntje> back?
<jjesse> back
<jjesse> the goal is to fix a bunch of bugs in karmic kubuntu-docs and then kick them over to the translations for a stable release update (SRU)
<trijntje> ok, so we should wait with translating till the SRU
<jjesse> yeah
<trijntje> ok, thanks
<trijntje> will that be annouced on the ubuntu-translators mailing list? Or is there some site i should watch?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-01
<adiroiban_> ds
<j1mc> hi adiroiban and adiroiban_
<adiroiban> j1mc:  :)
<adiroiban> hi
<j1mc> would you like to talk now?
<adiroiban> yep
<j1mc> ok... i'm getting another look at the bug report
<adiroiban> the idea is just to have a quick chat
<j1mc> ok
<adiroiban> and see what is the current status and what we can do / help
<j1mc> i'm going to be rebasing the xubuntu docs off of the current ubuntu docs
<adiroiban> i have exported the translations from Launchpad
<j1mc> so i'll need to get in some big changes before translations should start
<adiroiban> and now I'm working at creating a script for doing all the transtlation and html generation from a bzr branch
<j1mc> cool. :)
<adiroiban> j1mc: are you still going to use docbook ?
<j1mc> yes
<adiroiban> ok. in this case I will create a folder structure similar to ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> so that we can share some scripts
<j1mc> cool - do you want to use xubuntu-specific folder or document names?
<adiroiban> the idea is to have similar lib and script folders
<adiroiban> as for ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> no need to be identical...but try to keep them close
<j1mc> so david's email about prepending the source package name only applies to the translation templates?
<adiroiban> j1mc: yep... and only for the big list from Ubuntu
<adiroiban> since we will now have xubuntu-docs translations in a dedicated project
<adiroiban> we don't need to append xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> ... ok.  i think xubuntu-docs won't have the same issues now... because they are in universe.
<j1mc> should i let you know when i've merged in the ubuntu docs, and have gotten things ready to start some translations?
<j1mc> should i use the "status" portion of each document to indicate if something is ready for translation?
<adiroiban> j1mc: what do you mean my "merged in the ubuntu docs" ?
<j1mc> i'm going to rebase xubutu docs off of the current ubuntu docs
<j1mc> so i will be throwing out a good chunk of xubuntu content at the start
<adiroiban> j1mc: ok. that will be much easier for translatoins... most probably the translations script are already in place
<j1mc> yes
<adiroiban> we just need to take care of generating the required html files... as ubuntu-docs uses xml
<adiroiban> but I did that for kubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> well
<adiroiban> then
<j1mc> yes - xubuntu docs will only be output to html
<adiroiban> as soon as you have pushed the new xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> but ... i don't want people to start translating until i get things in decent shape, does that make sense?
<j1mc> otherwise, they'll be wasting their time
<adiroiban> let me know and I will do the required steps for enabling translations
<adiroiban> and generating the translated html files
<j1mc> ok - it will be at leasta few weeks
<adiroiban> j1mc: sure. usualy the announcemnet for translators is done only after doc string freeze
<adiroiban> but meanwhile we can prepare the required infrastructure
<j1mc> ok - thanks.  that sounds good.  i'd still like to get things done in advance of string freeze... i think there will be more xubuntu stuff to translate this time.
<adiroiban> great.
<adiroiban> than I will wait for the new xubuntu-docs branch for lucid to be pushed
<adiroiban> then I will wait for the new xubuntu-docs branch for lucid to be pushed
<j1mc> anything else that you want to discuss for now?
<adiroiban> nope
<adiroiban> I just wanted to know what are your plans
<shaunm> j1mc: do you guys use xml2po for translations on this stuff?
<adiroiban> and see what I should do next
<adiroiban> shaunm: yep
<shaunm> cool
<j1mc> shaunm: yes...
<adiroiban> j1mc: I was not sure if you are using docbook or mallard
<j1mc> i'm going to use mallard for the xfce documentation for now
<adiroiban> but if you are going with something similar to ubuntu-docs , everhing should be fine
<j1mc> and will look to use it for xubuntu documentation in the future
<shaunm> I only ask because we'll probably be moving xml2po out of gnome-doc-utils, in part to encourage more widespread use
<j1mc> but not during this release cycle
<shaunm> but it does't seem like the packaging is an issue for you
<j1mc> shaunm: yeah, i think having xml2po separated out might be helpful for the xfce guys for now.
<adiroiban> shaunm: if you want to help with packaging there is place you can help
<j1mc> shaunm: i'm in favor of the new naming conventions you've mentioned.
<adiroiban> shaunm: just ignore my last statement :)
<j1mc> i've just been on vacation, so hadn't responded
<j1mc> adiroiban: i'll be in touch when xubuntu-docs are ready
<adiroiban> j1mc: ok. np
<shaunm> cool
<j1mc> thanks for your help, adi.  looks like this is going to be a good release for translations
<shaunm> ok, bed time for shaunm
<j1mc> later, shaunm
<adiroiban> j1mc: I hope so :)
<adiroiban> j1mc: I will also go to sleep soon
<j1mc> 'night, adiroiban
<j1mc> i'm off to bed, too.
<j1mc> goodnight, all
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, if you're around, i have a couple of quick questions on some bugs
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-02
<kjs> I have noticed that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SystemAdministration is a bit weak
<kjs> do you guys need any help@?
<kjs> sup popey
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-03
<mdke> kjs: we always need help!
<ulul> Hi, anyone available to discuss my puzzling beginnings in Ubuntu doc ?
<talsemgeest> ulul: Haha, I wish. I'm still trying to get into doc work ;)
<ulul> You mean you submitted doc and noone acknoledged ?
<talsemgeest> ulul: Nah, Im still beginning when it comes to doc work :)
<ulul> :)
<ulul> Still I'm a bit confused, I started a doc on Gufw, posted on the mailing list about it, including links to my drafts and got no feedback
<talsemgeest> Darn, how long did you wait?
<ulul> my first mail was a week ago. You think it's too soon ?
<adiroiban> mdke: up ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-04
<shaunm> I know Ubuntu has remixes for KDE and XFCE, and that you guys put a lot of documentation work into those.  Is Ubuntu doing anything with any of the other desktop environments?
<shaunm> LXDE, Rox, GNUStep, Enlightenment?
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, we only handle official Ubuntu versions, so we don't document other DEs
<Rocket2DMn> a fair amount of stuff can be shared with some though, since applications can be used in different DEs
<cody-somerville> That untrue.
<Rocket2DMn> which part?
<cody-somerville> For LXDE, I think they're starting a documentation effort.
<Rocket2DMn> I heard awhile ago about possibly having an official derivative with LXDE, haven't heard anything recently.  Haven't heard anything about documentation for it
<cody-somerville> Quite a bit of discussion at the previous UDS re: LXDE
<cody-somerville> I think there might have been a session about documentation but I can't recall for sure.
<Rocket2DMn> unfortunately I can't take the time to attend UDS, I haven't seen any announcements or mailing list discussions on it (at least on the lists i subscribve to)
<Rocket2DMn> Were they going to call it Lubuntu or Little Ubuntu or something?
<cody-somerville> shaunm, alas, there is nothing for those desktop environments yet
<cody-somerville> Rocket2DMn, Lubuntu I believe
<Rocket2DMn> I'd definitely support that, but to answer his questions, afaik there isn't documentation on other DEs that aren't officially supported (maybe perhaps a mention of them, but no real substance)
<Rocket2DMn> Ran across a /. article today about linux documentation lacking :(
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Rocket2DMn> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/12/03/1449211/Is-Linux-Documentation-Lacking
<Rocket2DMn> there is definitely some truth to it
<Rocket2DMn> some projects are better than others
<DarkwingDuck> I know that KDE Documentation is hurting... One of the reasons I've kicked up to help with that on the Kubuntu end along with the KDE side.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, you guys are basically rewriting all of them
<DarkwingDuck> on the Kubuntu side we are.
<Rocket2DMn> i think with the ubuntu-docs, we'll hav eto give them a good once-over before string freeze, esp. since the next release is LTS
<Rocket2DMn> seems like we miss things that get reported too late
<DarkwingDuck> Yeah, that's why we are dumping all we have into Lucid
<DarkwingDuck> taking the bugs from Karmic and Jaunty and pushing them into Lucid fixes
<Rocket2DMn> we have lots of stuff open against ubuntu-docs
<DarkwingDuck> I think we have about 2 dozen ATM but, with the re-write we have been taking care of them.
<Rocket2DMn> I'm hoping to close out some old bugs for Lucid
<DarkwingDuck> We are shooting for around the new year
<DarkwingDuck> It's been fun starting fresh though
<DarkwingDuck> You look at a blank slate and start writing
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, that is fun
<DarkwingDuck> It was a little daunting at first but, after a bit you realize it is actually simpler to get what you want to say across
<DarkwingDuck> I'm debating on doing a presentation for Documentation at Camp-KDE in January
<Rocket2DMn> go for it man
<DarkwingDuck> I think I will... Putting together the presentation will be easy... It's mostly a style and putting together what you want and XML/Docbook
<DarkwingDuck> Have you guys switched to Mallard yet?
<Rocket2DMn> no, we;re still using docbook, are you using mallard?
<DarkwingDuck> No, and I don't think we will
<DarkwingDuck> docbook is too simple
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<DarkwingDuck> I know there was an email thread talking about mallard and the gnome side of the house
<Rocket2DMn> Hehe, well, I'm not sure when we will switch
<Rocket2DMn> if we can convert to mallard easily, i would support that for Lucid since we will have to maintain the docs for quite awhile
<DarkwingDuck> I actually have not used Mallard... what
<DarkwingDuck> is the benefit of Mallard over docbook?
<Rocket2DMn> I don't remember exactly, but if gnome is using it, it makes sense for us to use it
<DarkwingDuck> Very true
<DarkwingDuck> Just like with KDE using Docbook so should us on the Kubuntu side
<Rocket2DMn> okie dokie, i'm off
<Rocket2DMn> see ya later DarkwingDuck
<shaunm> DarkwingDuck, cody-somerville: if you happen to run across anybody seriously doing LXDE documentation work, could you let me know?
<shaunm> whether within Ubuntu or just upstream
<DarkwingDuck> I'll keep me ears open
<shaunm> thanks
<DarkwingDuck> shaunm, you had mentioned a couple of days ago about a help summit in kde-docs
<shaunm> DarkwingDuck: yeah
<shaunm> that's sort of why I'm after documentation people from other teams
<DarkwingDuck> where will it be at?
<shaunm> DarkwingDuck: Chicago
<DarkwingDuck> ahhh, hmm... I don't know if I'll be able to make that or not...
<shaunm> where are you?
<DarkwingDuck> San Diego
<shaunm> it's tough choosing a city.  no matter where it is, it's bad for somebody
<shaunm> one of the guys I'd like to have is in australia.  anything on this continent sucks for him
<shaunm> Chicago seemed good, because it's easy to fly to.  If you can get a direct flight anywhere, you can probably get it to Chicago.
<shaunm> Plus, I'm fairly close, so it's easier for me to plan.  And nixternal and j1mc are both there.
<DarkwingDuck> Oh yeah. I have family in northern Indiana so, I might make a trip of it
<shaunm> Yeah?  Where at?  I'm from northwest Indiana, originally
<DarkwingDuck> Fort Wayne
<shaunm> ah, farther east then
<DarkwingDuck> Yeah, but, not bad
<shaunm> still, that's what, a three hour drive?
<shaunm> that's how far I am from the city, just in a different direction
<DarkwingDuck> Yeah, 3, 3 1/2.
<shaunm> all right, I'm heading to bed.  I'm hoping to get a confirmation on the venue soon.  When I do, I'll send out emails.
<DarkwingDuck> Cool, let me know
<mistrynitesh> jjesse: while updating the system docs, should 'status' attribute be 'draft' or 'writing'/'review'
<jjesse> waiting review
<mistrynitesh> jjesse: hmmm... 'draft' or 'waiting review' is not listed on the wiki page ~/Checking
<mistrynitesh> jjesse: do we need to update https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking ?
<jjesse> umm don't know, been a while since i referenced that page
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys, for bug 145055 - what do you think about just linking to the document from advanced-topics ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-05
<kjs> yo
<kjs> http://www.irssi.org/
<pwnguin> anyone seen this?
<pwnguin> http://inkmesh.com/search/?qs=ubuntu&btnE=Find+Ebooks
 * kjs looks
<kjs> pwnguin: no, but surley thats available for free?
<pwnguin> kjs: its not found on the website; i dont own ebook readers. i just thought i'd share that someone's attempting to sell what Ubuntu publishes for free on teh intarwebs
<kjs> yeah
<kjs> people often do
<pwnguin> put your own up for .99 cents!
<kjs> who would pay for that though
<kjs> realisitcally
<pwnguin> donno
<kjs> if i contrib to gogle docs project can I link back to my company website?
<kjs> ubuntu docs i meant
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-06
<twb> Typo at https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html, "dyngoup.schema" should be "dyngroup.schema"
<twb> Further down that page, the change from ldap01.info to x01-test.info seems suspiciously wrong.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-08
<peppe84> Hi. Report this bug. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/687450
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 687450 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Replace totally F-Spot (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<peppe84> High importance
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-09
<twb> In https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html#openldap-tls
<twb> It assumes the ssl-cert package is installed, but gnutls-bin does not cause it to be installed.  In a sufficiently minimal server (esp. one without postfix), it will not be installed.
<peppe84> any committers is this channel for review this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/687450
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 687450 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Replace totally F-Spot (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Low,In progress]
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-10
<peppe84> Hi. about this page https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/serverguide/C/legal.html ... need update? see this https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-12
<nirazio> Ubuntu provides Official and Community documentation.Why create the two streams? Is the official documentation more trustworthy? Is the criteria to add to it more strict?
<nirazio> anyone???
<geekosopher> nirazio: yes, community docs can be created by anyone using the wiki,
<nirazio> geekosopher: Why official cant be created??
<geekosopher> official docs are the online html version of the system documentation that can be edited only by core-doc team
<geekosopher> official version is shipped with every cd. it is installed by default within the system and can be accessed off-line using 'help'
<Pendulum> anyone, however, can provide patches and submit them to the core doc team for things they think should be added or fixed
<geekosopher> yes, and they are all welcome to join 'contributors' team :)
<nirazio> geekosopher: What is the difference between Community and Official doc??
<geekosopher> nirazio: if you are asking for the difference in content, the official docs are narrower in scope, dealing only with main help topics
<geekosopher> whereas in community section, anyone can put a 'how-to' for any ubuntu-related topic under the sun
<nirazio> geekosopher: What you mean by main help topics???
<geekosopher> general install and config instructions, what is it that you are actually trying to understand?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-12-07
<pmatulis> mdke: around?
<mdke> pmatulis: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-12-08
<mdke> pmatulis: sorry, I don't check into irc much these days, as I can't access it from the office, but feel free to email
 * zkriesse pokes duanedes1gn 
#ubuntu-doc 2011-12-11
<jbicha> mdke: will we be doing any more oneiric ubuntu-docs releases for typos and such? bug 902822
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 902822 in ubuntu-docs "Typo string 419" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/902822
<jbicha> I've not really understood how we handle string freeze
<jbicha> mdke: also see http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/12/unity-shortcut-overlay-coming-to-ubuntu-12-04/
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-02
<eagles0513875> pleia2: hey
<eagles0513875> hey belkinsa pleia2 its interesting how this topic i brought up just before 13.10 release resurfaced
<belkinsa> Yeah, re-thought about it.
<pleia2> eagles0513875: yeah, it's something we've needed to work on for a long time, particularly now that we mostly have the official docs under control
<eagles0513875> pleia2: i think as i said in my email replicate the official ones and use the community ones as as ones that get updated and fixed
<eagles0513875> less work for those on the official docs team
<pleia2> we don't really want to copy all the text over, my recommendation in the last thread about this was to put a link
<pleia2> so link to official docs, then expand upon it if you want in the wiki
<eagles0513875> pleia2: maybe so but what if there are bugs on the official docs
<pleia2> then we fix them :)
<eagles0513875> at least with the wiki replicating the official docs is that you can then if i come and say hey there is a mistake here thisi should be blah blah blah we can do so with the wiki
<eagles0513875> how though how do the official docs get fixed
<pleia2> if you don't want to fix them, you can submit a bug against the docs
<pleia2> the docs team updates them and then they upload a new package
<pleia2> if it's in a stable release, they do a stable release update, SRU
<eagles0513875> how often are SRU's done
<pleia2> depends on the release, severity of the bug and how much people power we have
<pleia2> preferably people will be contributing to bug fixes during the development of docs so this doesn't happen
<pleia2> I think this is mostly a social problem, we need to convince folks to review the docs under development
<bkerensa> =o
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-06
<knome> hello belkinsa, slickymaster, pleia2
<pleia2> :)
<belkinsa> o/
<belkinsa> I still need to the scrollback
<knome> well basically
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
<knome> "what information should we have on this page, where should we link from this page and how to format it (and in which order)"
<cprofitt> hello knome
<slickymaster> o/
<knome> hey cprofitt
<belkinsa> Hey there cprofitt
<slickymaster> hi cprofitt
<belkinsa> The scrollback if any one wants to know what's is the issue: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6531375/
<knome> since i have mostly only discussed with slickymaster, let me briefly introduce what my interest is
<belkinsa> Yes, that would be a good idea.
<knome> simply put, i want to make the front page *look* better
<knome> i'm not familiar with the scope of the content on the wiki
<knome> i've just moved topics from the current front page to the new front page
<knome> i don't know if the signpost is a pet project of somebody
<knome> if you think it's used a lot, let's keep it, but let's make it look better
<knome> if it's not used, please by all means refactor it (and ask me to help), as long as we make the new thing look better
<belkinsa> It's hard to say if it's being used without seeing the stats of it
<knome> sure
<knome> from my point of view, the signpost is confusing
<belkinsa> I agree.
<knome> and it seems to do assumptions that aren't necessary true
<knome> for example, it assumes all power users want to become programmers
<knome> nice idea, but...
<knome> so back to the front page refresh itself;
<pleia2> heh, "scope" is "everything anyone feels like writing about ubuntu that is not in the scope of the official docs"
<knome> i want to make all usable resources more available for the users
<belkinsa> And have it on the front page of the wiki?
<knome> pleia2, sure, but what i meant is that i don't know how heavily the wiki leans on security, business environment or hardware issues
<pleia2> so it's not actually possible to have an "an exhaustive list of all topics covered in this wiki"
<knome> or how important those might or might not be
<pleia2> knome: I don't think anyone does, people write about all kinds of things, importance varies based on what you need ;)
<knome> my point is
<belkinsa> Duh...yeah, I think it's possible to do it.
<knome> i'm only interested in the looks.
<knome> (not only, but think it that way, and you're close)
<knome> that naturally does lead to other considerations
<knome> like "is this information formatted nicely, and should we move the content around to make it better"
<knome> so if i'm asking whether something is useful or not, it's because i would like to present it in a more sane way for the users
<belkinsa> Knome, I agree with what you talking about and I think the work you have already done to the page is what is needed.  Just focus on the important topics that new/old users would need.
<knome> for example, i think the signpost could be mostly split into "other resources" (which are scattered in other places as well, even in the front page "see also") and "ubuntu events" (which is more or less badly covered in the wiki, so could be dropped for the moment)
<belkinsa> I like this idea.
<knome> that being said, see  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh  now and find the other resources box in "more resources"
<knome> yes, it links to a page that doesn't exist, but it should be relatively easy to build that page
<knome> and extend as more resources are found in the wiki
<knome> and ultimately i don't think that should be an exhaustive list of any resource ever available
<knome> just the biggest and most useful ones
<belkinsa> Yes, it can.  Maybe using a tag, if that's allowed, to build a list.
<knome> the signpost lists #ubuntu-motu
<knome> i don't know how useful that is from the bat to anyone who reads the wiki
<belkinsa> I agree.
<knome> rather try to point to #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel (maybe)
<knome> those channels can point to right resources
<belkinsa> +1
<belkinsa> Oh, by the way, welcome to the team, knome.
<knome> they also point to ubuntu beginners
<knome> is that team even active?
<knome> ta ;)
<belkinsa> I don't know.  I think they are disbanded.
<belkinsa> Check in the channel?
<knome> that was a rhetoric question
<knome> any listing is prone to get outdated
<knome> so let's try to keep them short
<belkinsa> RIght.
 * slickymaster thinks that that is is closed for awhile now
<knome> unless it's something that's dynamically built from a resource that's always up-to-date
<belkinsa> Yeah, that's the problem the wiki.
<belkinsa> eagles0513875, you felt this issue of outdated info, right?
<slickymaster> there are quite a few pages with outdated info
<belkinsa> And that I want I somewhat brought up on the mailing list.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: correct
<eagles0513875> whats up
<eagles0513875> i think versioning of the docs would really help
<slickymaster> a just a small amount of them have been tagged with the proper Tag/NeedsUpdating
<eagles0513875> ill be back to discuss this shortly
<belkinsa> knome is another person who thinks the wiki needs major work on
<eagles0513875> hey knome
<belkinsa> Scrollback: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6531375/
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: ill read it now once i get things started at work
<knome> hello
<belkinsa> Okay
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources
<belkinsa> I think the problem of outdated-ness could be fixed if we had someone that could be able to e-mail developers to give some docs on the new freatures.
<belkinsa> Wow, the favours list needs to have all of the favours
<knome> yeah, that's just what i gathered from the front pag
<knome> and we need to format that page in a better fashion as well
<belkinsa> So, this page a sandbox page?
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> Yes, we do.
<knome> or, a draft really
<belkinsa> Okay.
<eagles0513875> knome: belkinsa i really think versioning would help and i think alfresco would come in handy
<knome> once we get some amount of the most used resources listed, let's format that
<eagles0513875> as it has its own built in wiki
<knome> and start using it
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> eagles0513875, that's yet another tool though, right?
<belkinsa> (to what knome said)
<eagles0513875> yes knome
<eagles0513875> i woudl need to create a juju charm for it if we want to deploy it
<knome> why wouldn't we try to fix what we have now
<eagles0513875> knome: its too much of a mess right now
<eagles0513875> one perk with alfresco
<knome> the technology isn't the problem
<eagles0513875> one framework can have multiple projects
<knome> the people are the problem
<eagles0513875> knome:
<eagles0513875> maybe so
<eagles0513875> but we have version control of the docs
<eagles0513875> and images
<knome> i don't know how that would help
<eagles0513875> so if we update a document and its not right we roll back to the previous version
<knome> if the docs are outdated, they are outdated
<belkinsa> Yes, people are the problem.  And I think we also have a major disconnection with other teams.
<eagles0513875> that is on hold
<eagles0513875> i think though duplication of the official wiki should be done
<eagles0513875> official docs i mean
<eagles0513875> and the copy of them be extended further
<knome> actually, i think the community wiki shouldn't cover those issues in the official docs
<knome> at most extend them
<knome> but duplication is just... duplication
<knome> and prone to getting outdated
<slickymaster> +1 on that
<knome> because nobody from the official docs is not going to update the help wiki
<knome> and that's fair enough
<knome> we should simply link in the official docs
<belkinsa> Um, there are a part of this whole team.
<knome> sure, socially... but not necessarily interested in the community help wiki
<belkinsa> But o agree, they just focus on their niche and we focus on ours.
<knome> yes
<belkinsa> s/o/I
<eagles0513875> knome: look at the postfix official doc's for 12.04 for instance and compare to that of the community
<eagles0513875> official docs is so scant its unusuable
<belkinsa> I know that pleia2 wants to correct that.
<knome> and because of that, i think we should avoid duplication
<pleia2> eagles0513875: we really need to fix the official docs
<pleia2> eagles0513875: have you submitted bug reports for what is missing? if not, please please do
<knome> that's where my area of interest ends... :)
<pleia2> we don't want to keep adding to the wiki if the official docs aren't even complete, the official docs are the *core focus* of this team
<eagles0513875> pleia2: no i have not thing is i dont bother to use them as i go back ot the community ones and bam i get things working
<knome> yes, file bugs agaisnt the official docs, don't divert and try to "do it all better ourself"
<belkinsa> Is there a way to have the offical docs updated for the system/sever docs as like a PPA and updates when its updated?
<belkinsa> Sorry for being offtopic.
<pleia2> eagles0513875: you're only really solving this for yourself and not helping the team :( please help us improve these docs
<eagles0513875> that is the problem i see wiht the official docs
<pleia2> the problem is that people won't submit bugs
<eagles0513875> and im just as guilty on that front
<knome> eagles0513875, we fixed the official xubuntu docs
<eagles0513875> i wonder
<eagles0513875> you got me wondering if we could on every page of the official docs put a link on how to submit a bug
<belkinsa> Oh, is there a way to get people to know that they can summit bugs?
<knome> eagles0513875, they are fantastic now, and since we put all our effort on that, we don't have too many pages in the community help wiki
<eagles0513875> if someone finds one
<knome> -> easier to maintain
<eagles0513875> pleia2: i wasnt sure what to file against now i do know
<pleia2> eagles0513875: there IS
<pleia2> eagles0513875: see the footer of every single page in the server docs, for example I just clicked on one randomly https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/serverguide/samba.html
<belkinsa> Maybe a page in the docs for that could help users to bug things?
<pleia2> "To report errors in this serverguide documentation, file a bug report."
<belkinsa> Oh, never mind.
<knome> same for the official docs
<pleia2> yep
<knome> To report errors in this documentation, file a bug.
<belkinsa> Okay.
<pleia2> I don't know how we can make this easier
<knome> pleia2, file the bugs for the users so they don't have to
<eagles0513875> is it worth filing bugs against 12.04 docs
<belkinsa> Is the link to the LP included?
 * knome hides under the hardwoord table
<pleia2> knome: hehe
<eagles0513875> pleia2: ^ see above
<knome> belkinsa, yes, that's a link
<pleia2> eagles0513875: yes, there is still a point release
<eagles0513875> ok. i can already file a few
<pleia2> eagles0513875: focusing on 14.04 would be better though
<belkinsa> knome, thanks.
<eagles0513875> but the problem is how often do updates be released for LTS docs
<knome> yes, at the moment we should get the 14.04 docs in shape
<pleia2> that's the next LTS, and in development now so much easier to get changes into now
<pleia2> it's not really worth spending time on 12.04 at the expense of 14.04
<eagles0513875> what will its documentation be based off of?
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<pleia2> has instructions for checking out the current branch :)
<eagles0513875> pleia2: i dont feel confident writing them
<eagles0513875> would it be ok if i checked them out and filed bugs against them in case there are issues or areas that need improvement?
<pleia2> eagles0513875: you don't have to, just download them so you can look at them
<pleia2> yep, that's perfectly fine
<knome> if you have the knowledge and time to write something for the docs, you should do that
<knome> it can always be reviewed and verified by somebody else
<knome> it's easier to review and merge than write
<eagles0513875> knome: thing is I have alot on my plate
<eagles0513875> from freelance work I have but I can provide improvements to the docs in the form of bugs
<knome> eagles0513875, that's fine. i said "if you have the knowledge and time"
<eagles0513875> atm if my mentor resurfaces i hope to continue learning how to package
<eagles0513875> and package right
<knome> i'm an entrepreneur and the xubuntu project lead but i'm trying to find time to help the docs team to get better
<eagles0513875> knome: im an entrepreneur as well
<eagles0513875> starting my own IT business and have a few projects for it as well
<belkinsa> Thanks knome for joining.  We do need help for sure.
<knome> i'm just saying we all have the time-constraints
<belkinsa> We all do.
<eagles0513875> atm trying to raise funds for a low cost PoS system using open source point of sales software :)
<eagles0513875> using kubuntu 13.10 on this laptop which i use for development work etc
<knome> eagles0513875, do you think you could use some of the time you have used to update the community help wiki to update the official docs instead?
<eagles0513875> if you are telling me to focus on the official docs
<eagles0513875> and pleia2 said they have managed to cut down on the number of pages the project shes on has i will focus on filing bugs against the official docs
<knome> do you think you could also take the responsibility of writing some of the pages, or at least start the work on them so others could get motivated and help you?
<eagles0513875> I can try
<belkinsa> Sure.
<belkinsa> If that was directed also to me.
<eagles0513875> knome: thing is most woudl be copy and paste from the community stuff
<eagles0513875> i think its high time i get on a vm of 14.04
<knome> belkinsa, well anybody and everybody
<eagles0513875> and teest setting things up on therwe
<belkinsa> Okay, I figured, but I wante dto check
<knome> eagles0513875, that's fine, as long as you double-check the validity and quality
<eagles0513875> sry im juggling between work
<knome> once it's in the official docs, we can look into dropping it from the community help to avoid duplication
<eagles0513875> wait isnt there a really high barrier to entry with the official docs
<eagles0513875> to join the team that is
<pleia2> anyone can submit merge proposals
<eagles0513875> knome: pleia2 the problem is try this out. google ubuntu postfix
<eagles0513875> community stuff is found first
<pleia2> actually joining the team means you have full editorial control to edit things directly, so yes there is a higher barrier there :)
<knome> eagles0513875, let's fix that.
<eagles0513875> what can be done to improve the search rankings of the official docs
<belkinsa> Also, to create a sandbox branch is allowed too
<eagles0513875> i think as well we need to look into improving SEO for the official docs
<knome> eagles0513875, sounds fair; want to file a bug for that?
<eagles0513875> knome: yes i will
<eagles0513875> once i settle into work
<knome> thanks
<eagles0513875> juggling alot on my plate besides work tonight
<eagles0513875> are their iso's available for 14.04 or one has to do a network upgrade?
<knome> iso's have been available for a while already
<pleia2> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/308/builds
<pleia2> ^^ daily isos
<eagles0513875> knome: i never know where to find them :)
<knome> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<knome> is always the newest daily ISO
<belkinsa> cproffit: Is it possible to have a link to the program guide from the wiki to the search page for that program on AskUbuntu?
<eagles0513875> qa site is way to confusing to work with
<eagles0513875> lol
<eagles0513875> ill do a network upgrade from 13.10 to 12.04
<knome> it's very logical, but can look a bit daunting
<eagles0513875> knome: just looking at it as we speak im finding it quite daunting
<slickymaster> eagles0513875, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20131206/trusty-desktop-i386.iso
<knome> eagles0513875, there are people who can guide you through it if you are interested.
<slickymaster> eagles0513875,  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20131206/trusty-desktop-amd64.iso
<eagles0513875> what would be the best for me to work with if im working on server side stuff
<eagles0513875> desktop or server or can i use desktop anyway that way i can work on stuff for both?
<knome> i'm not able to answer that
<belkinsa> knome, I think your work on the pages could be translated for the other favours because I think the way you have them is easier to use than the old ones.
<knome> belkinsa, other flavors?
<belkinsa> The format is what I was referring to.
<belkinsa> Like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, ect.
<knome> i don't think the flavors have such help wiki's really
<belkinsa> Oh.
<belkinsa> But wouldn't be nice though?
<knome> i can't speak for other flavors, but xubuntu doesn't need one
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: in terms of kubuntu usually points back to ubuntu docs
<belkinsa> Oh.
<eagles0513875> the only seperation would be a wiki on kde i think if they even have one
<belkinsa> Um...
<belkinsa> Never midn.
<belkinsa> But I still like that format.
<belkinsa> I think it could be used for the Ubuntu front page, if possible,
<eagles0513875> ha
<eagles0513875> kubuntu just poinst to the ask page
<knome> that's probably off our scope, and won't really happen
<eagles0513875> http://www.kubuntu.org/support
<knome> here's what we do with xubuntu: http://xubuntu.org/help/
<belkinsa> They use a blog, don't they?
<eagles0513875> http://www.kubuntu.org/community
<eagles0513875> they dont even have a wiki actually
<eagles0513875> just forums or even they link back to ubuntu forums
<belkinsa> Wow.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: it makes sense though
<eagles0513875> core is technically ubuntu
<eagles0513875> DE is the only difference
<belkinsa> Yeah, I know.
<eagles0513875> hey mhall119
<belkinsa> Sigh, sometimes i think "why am I in this team".
<knome> because you are interested in docs, and ultimately want to make them better
<eagles0513875> whats wrong belkinsa
<belkinsa> Well, not really, I joined because of the MoinMoin editing skills that I have.  But maybe I do have a interested in the docs and having them easy to use.
<eagles0513875> belkinsa: imho ease of use is important to documentation
<belkinsa> True, true.
<belkinsa> Maybe I should focus on that.
<knome> whatever scratches your itch
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh  is now clean of most of the weird stuff on the current front page
<slickymaster> no more signpost :)
<belkinsa> You guys are good now, right?
<knome> yep.
<knome> well, no, this is not where it ends.
<belkinsa> Oh.
<belkinsa> I meant good from my help.
<knome> we should keep on working on the OtherResources page, for example
<knome> if you have any feedback or ideas, they are still welcome
<belkinsa> That newer one is cleaner and better.
<belkinsa> I see and that works for me
<belkinsa> godbyk, i like your idea!
<slickymaster> got go, guys
<slickymaster> cy
<belkinsa> See ya
<belkinsa> Thanks for coming to the channel to talk about this
<slickymaster> np
<godbyk> Just a reminder, the docs team is meeting in #ubuntu-meeting right now if you'd like to join us.
<belkinsa> knome, I just noticed that that page is for the Ubuntu Community Help wiki, sorry!
<knome> belkinsa, yes?
<belkinsa> I thought that page was for the Xubuntu front page.
<knome> nah.
<knome> we don't do user-oriented stuff on wiki's
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources is mostly done. anybody have ideas on how to improve?
<belkinsa> Awesome layout!
<belkinsa> Though I think mailing-list should go a wiki page explaining what one is and have a link to the list.ubuntu.com, same with IRC, minus the channel list, but maybe the user support channels.
<belkinsa> If there are pages on those.
<bkerensa> ;)
<belkinsa> knome, I thank  you for this. You just rock,
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-07
<belkinsa> I might try that layout idea on another page that might need it
<knome> belkinsa, sure, or you can poke me to work on that page as well.
<knome> the wiki markup for that isn't the cleanest, so you probably want to avoid that for pages that are edited a lot
<knome> belkinsa, also online on irc.
<belkinsa> Hmmm?
<knome> if you want to follow up on the mailing list discussion faster
<belkinsa> True, true, but I think I want to have everyone able to read what we are talking about at their own pace.
<knome> or we can discuss in irc and send the outcome to the mailing list. but both ways work for me :)
<belkinsa> Sure.
<belkinsa> And I ended up changing my siggy to something better then just having my User Wiki page link.
<knome> :)
<knome> i guess i should think about including that in my sig
<belkinsa> knome, I understand now the differnce from what you want and the Recent Changes page
<knome> do you think that is something that would help you track what you originally wanted without having to update the tags for every release?
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<knome> ok, cool
<belkinsa> Might make clean up and editing easier
<belkinsa> We just need some system that works for us the team members and the users also
<knome> if there's a new page, it's easy to tag that
<knome> becuase it's always the current month
<belkinsa> But wouldn't that create too many tags?
<knome> one per month
<knome> what is "too many"?
<knome> the idea would obviously to keep the tags to minimum
<belkinsa> One per month maybe too many in the long run.
<knome> we wouldn't want a page that's 5 years old
<knome> so it would either be deleted, or marked as reviewed
<belkinsa> Yeah, but think what will happen in five years.
<belkinsa> Or ten.
<knome> i don't think it's a problem even if we have 50 tags if they're all useful,
<belkinsa> Heh.  Also, another issue that I see that how many users who work on wiki pages will tag their pages.  By users, I mean the ones who are outside of the team.
<knome> not many i suppose
<knome> but that will always be a problem
<knome> once we have all pages tagged with months (and ideally with other meaningful tags), it's easy to keep on tagging new pages
<belkinsa> Unless it was restricted for the users in the team, but is that what we want?
<knome> why should it be?
<belkinsa> It is*
<belkinsa> but is that we don't want*
<belkinsa> My reasoning behind is to keep everything under *OUR* control and to our standards.
<knome> i don't see a reason why we would want to restict tagging to team as long as people know the guidelines
<knome> that means there will be much more work burden for the team
<belkinsa> Yeah, but I think they are not visble or something.
<knome> and the non-team members will never learn tagging
<knome> and the threshold to join the team and start tagging is bigger
<belkinsa> Ah.
<knome> in the same way as the wiki is editable by anyone, so should be the tags
<belkinsa> Well, I know that wiki admins are notified of changes, right?
<knome> i'm quite sure people who do not know about tagging won't tag
<knome> are if they are subscribed to pages
<knome> you can subscribe as well
<belkinsa> Yes, but I think I would like to have a digest or something instead.
<belkinsa> AFK-Lunch
<knome> i don't think there are digest deliveries, but you could subscribe to part of the pages
<knome> and share the whole wiki in smaller parts for the team
<knome> what's the CategoryDocumentation used for?
<knome> that doesn't seem to be a large, or logical group
<belkinsa> I like that idea using categories to split up the work, but still that could be a large sum of pages.
<belkinsa> I agree, WTF is CategoryDocumentatio.
<belkinsa> +n
<belkinsa> Should I ask on the list?
<knome> i don't know. doesn't hurt to.
<belkinsa> Thanks, on it!
<belkinsa> Wow, another month with 100 threads in our mailing list and fast filling in the first two weeks.
<knome> front page for https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ updated.
<belkinsa> Thumbs up! X2
<knome> if you are bored, go through the list of pages at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List
<belkinsa> I will, but I'm studying for my finals.
<knome> http://open.knome.fi/2013/12/07/efforts-on-documentation/
<belkinsa> You rock.
<belkinsa> And this is what I tweeted: Svetlana Belkin â@Barsookain now
<belkinsa> knome of the Doc-Team posted his reasons for joining and working with us:http://open.knome.fi/2013/12/07/efforts-on-documentation/ â¦
<knome> ta
 * knome bows
<belkinsa> Speaking of blogging, I need to post something in The Ubuntu Sense.  But what.
<cprofitt> nice to see so much work being done... I am dealing with a sick kid today.
<knome> cprofitt, get well soons for your kid
<belkinsa> Ditoo
<belkinsa> ditt*
<belkinsa> ditto**
<belkinsa> knome: You think your layout could work for this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki ?
<knome> i guess, i don't know if it needs that though
<belkinsa> Or is it just hard to follow in general?
<knome> that might be it
<belkinsa> Yeah, I think nskaggs said that in the vUDS.
<knome> i think the header for those pages could be improved.
<belkinsa> It's his action item to work on that, not mine.
<belkinsa> Yeah, that too.
<belkinsa> nskaggs = ballons?
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> I was rewatching the vUDS session and I was thinking about what I added to the action items...I still don't get where or what I was thinking when I added my item
<knome>  maybe the pad?
<belkinsa> Could be.
<belkinsa> But for the Ubuntu Docs, themselves, I agree that we need a workflow of what we do in each cycle, but someone else has to take that since I'm not doing system docs
<knome> you could document the rest
<belkinsa> As in?
<knome> the non-system docs related tasks
<belkinsa> Gotcha and yeah, I can.
<belkinsa> I updated the action item to say workflow of the wiki part.
<belkinsa> I will make a copy of the page that I linked to my sandbox so we can work on it.
<knome> sure
<belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa/sandbox/wikiworkflow
 * belkinsa goes back studying
<belkinsa> God, I feel sad for the folks who need to check their e-mails in the team.
<knome> what images are you referring to in your email?
<belkinsa> The ones that were included in each box
<knome> can't see any in the current menu banner
<belkinsa> Yeah, I forgot that there wasn't any.
<belkinsa> But I  like the idea, it's more modern.
<belkinsa> and cleaner
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-08
<belkinsa> At least we are trying to fix the issue of branding the Community Help wiki.
<cprofitt> some images are good... others just increase load times
<knome> i guess i could optimize the png's we're using on the frontpage
<knome> i'll do that some time in the near future
<cprofitt> it is not taking long to load for me
<cprofitt> so they appear to be pretty good right now
<knome> me neither, but it can always be faster
<cprofitt> they are very small
<knome> cprofitt, did you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar already?
<cprofitt> I think they are good... they fit the current Ubuntu themse as well
<belkinsa> I like them
<knome> yep, they are from the official pictograms list
<belkinsa> I figured.
<cprofitt> Looking at the menu bar now... had not looked at it yet
<cprofitt> looks nice
<knome> should i just go and replace the current one with that?
<knome> i guess the only big change is that there is no "home" (instead, the icon leads to the home page)
<belkinsa> Oh, cprofitt, (sorry for bugging you about this) has my suggestion about having the main wiki page to a program linked to the search of AskUbuntu?
<belkinsa> been used?
<belkinsa> knome: that might not be obvious for everyone.
<cprofitt> knome: I like the lines in the original... but that is a taste thing.
<cprofitt> I also think the home should not just be an icon... unless the other items are icons too
<cprofitt> two different methods for navigation may confuse people
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<cprofitt> I made the image go to home and had a text link on the New York Page
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I am not sure if the askubuntu link has been discussed
<cprofitt> we should ask for that...
<belkinsa> To the AskUbuntu folks?
<cprofitt> well... ask for the askubuntu team to discuss the idea with us
<cprofitt> I have not talked to them about it yet
<belkinsa> Okay, thank you for the update.
<belkinsa> That could also help us to figure what pages we need and don't need based on the AskUbuntu folks.
<cprofitt> I will try to ask around... but I think we should discuss exactly how we would want that too look
<belkinsa> Okay.
<cprofitt> I would want to get their input on how they see their site meshing with the community help wiki
<cprofitt> to ensure there is no feeling of competition
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> Thank you again.
<cprofitt> belkinsa: do you use askubuntu?
<belkinsa> Once in awhile
<belkinsa> I just don't like the fact that there are lot of easy to look up questions by newbies that could be found in the wiki if we had a good running one
<belkinsa> Or maybe your suggestion
<belkinsa> And that's why I questioned redundancy in support for Ubuntu and programs in the list.
<knome> different people like using different methods to get help
<belkinsa> I know
<cprofitt> belkinsa: redundancy is only bad when there are conflicts that cause confusion
<knome> even if same questions are answered in multiple places, it's not by definition redundant
<belkinsa> Okay, I see.  English is not my first.
<knome> cprofitt, updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar
<belkinsa> But what cprofitt said I think that's the issue that I'm seeing with the wiki being a bad form of support.
<knome> i guess we could add some border lines or slightly different bg colors for each other item
<cprofitt> belkinsa: any resources, wiki or ask... can become bad if it becomes out of date
<cprofitt> its a bit like having forums and discourse
<belkinsa> Duh.  I think something is just bugging me about the wiki and AskUbuntu that might just be one of those It's-Only-Me  issues.
<cprofitt> http://discourse.ubuntu.com/
<belkinsa> And forums and mailing lists and IRC
<cprofitt> belkinsa: no, no... it doesn't bug just you
<belkinsa> I know, I use discourse for Ubuntu Ohio things
<cprofitt> askubuntu looks to be better because it is newer
<cprofitt> give it three years and it will have out-of-date stuff too
<belkinsa> RIght, right.
<cprofitt> clean-up of old stuff is a large issue
<cprofitt> I have not seen a good solution for it yet
<cprofitt> Microsoft, Apple, Novell and other companies have all had the same issue
<belkinsa> Management is better though on AskUbutu, isn't?
<cprofitt> heck Microsoft has technet articles that link to deleted content
<belkinsa> M$
<belkinsa> Boo.
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I do not think so... I have not seen any auto-expiration on Aks Abuntu
<cprofitt> it is a document life cycle issue
<belkinsa> Ah.
<belkinsa> Auto-expiration would be nice but that could lead to problems
<cprofitt> It could...
<cprofitt> most document lifecycle solutions I have seen have an automated process to remind about review and update
<cprofitt> and only archive the document if it is not updated by a certain date
<belkinsa> And MoinMoin doesn't have the feature for this?
<belkinsa> And also have a automatic "archived" tag.
<cprofitt> not sure... I can research that
<knome> cprofitt, like the striping on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar better?
<knome> belkinsa, my idea of tagging things with the creating/major review month would also help with that issue
<belkinsa> cprofitt: and if so, we can propose that idea to the list.
<cprofitt> +1
<belkinsa> knome: looking better
<cprofitt> Yeah... that makes it easier to read knome
<cprofitt> there may be some way for IS to reun a script and determine the age of pages... not sure
<knome> cprofitt, as on the mailing list, that will only result the last change
<knome> which might be a typo fix or other really small one
<belkinsa> But that requires a ticket to them and knome's comment.
<knome> tagging the page when a good review was done would be more helpful to actually know how old pages are
<belkinsa> But then again, if we need it for the good, then we should ask them
<knome> we can already see the last changes dates
<knome> but that's not helpful in many of the cases
<knome> i guess the first thing to do is decide if we want to keep pages that have information for releases that are not supported
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> knome: exactly
<knome> like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Oracle10gDapper
<cprofitt> it would be a really nice feature to have the last five editors sent an email that the page has not been updated in the last 12 months
<knome> cprofitt, imagine my proposal...
<knome> we could just check all pages that have a tag 2012Dec or anything before
<cprofitt> knome: that page was marked for deletion a long time ago
<knome> yes...
<knome> but it's still on the wiki.
<cprofitt> knome: yes, I liked your suggestion
<knome> somebody needs to take action
<knome> if you ACK, i can go through all the pages that are marked for deletion >1 year ago
<knome> but no crying we lost something then ;)
<belkinsa> Action, as action item?
<belkinsa> Or is this for the wiki admins only.
<knome> action as in "get it done"
<belkinsa> Ah, right.  DUH.
<cprofitt> anyone have an issue with that page being deleted...
<cprofitt> it is very old and out of date
<knome> well that's not the only page
<knome> and if we're looking for consensus for every page, it's going to take ages
<belkinsa> I know some of the tagged pages need to be deleted because they say so.
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<knome> so either somebody who has the time and knowledge should carefully go through them and either delete or mark them for other actions
<knome> or somebody should just go and remove all marked pages.
<belkinsa> Second one
<belkinsa> In the first place, then the first.
<cprofitt> I can go through them... but may lack the knowledge on some
<cprofitt> I just deleted that page
<knome> if the second.. then there is no doing the first
<belkinsa> Which one?
<cprofitt> I do apologize - I was not aware most of the team had vanished and I was the only one
<belkinsa> Oh.
<cprofitt> the oracle one
<knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List
<knome> cprofitt, start with grepping "dapper" on that list...
<belkinsa> Also, I think we need to clean up the wiki admins team of the inactive one
<cprofitt> knome: yep... I have stayed aware from deletions in the past dues to it being frowned upon when I was just starting out
<belkinsa> First three can be deleted for sure
<cprofitt> I always left that to the more senior folks
<knome> cprofitt, i'm all for deleting pages that discuss dapper, or other long-not-supported releases
<cprofitt> belkinsa: yes... we do there are some inactive people that need to be removed.
<knome> i know others disagree, but meh.
<belkinsa> How many admins are still active anyways?  I can think of four.
<cprofitt> the LP team has expiration dates on several of them...
<knome> not the oldest ones though
<cprofitt> I think all but the owner should have expirations that allow people to renew
<belkinsa> When was that changed?
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> looks like in 2012
<cprofitt> I will talk with mdke about it...
<belkinsa> Is the owner still active?
<cprofitt> he is around, but not sure he is active
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<knome> mdke just did some stuff, but as i proposed, we should make CC the owner for that team.
<cprofitt> he did respond to the list about how to make people admins
<cprofitt> and editors
<belkinsa> If it really four active folks I think there should a call for a few more, if possible.
<knome> if it's four *active* ones, we're doing great :)
<knome> if it's four "active" ones, then maybe we should call for a few more.
<belkinsa> Yeah, but that might not be enough.
<belkinsa> I been thinking about it but I don't have the skill to know what to delete.
<cprofitt> I think we need to work to get more people active...
<knome> i think we should get more people to contribute to the low-level activities first
<belkinsa> Or that too.
<cprofitt> I think admins around 4 is good, but there is a need for more with editor privs
<belkinsa> But first figure out who is still around
<knome> the first step would be making CC the owner of that team
<cprofitt> yes,... getting more people just reviewing and tagging would be fantastic
<belkinsa> Editors can see the changes and approve them, right?
<knome> then ask somebody in the CC (like pleia2) make all the people expire from the team
<knome> including the admins!
<belkinsa> pleia2 had the idea of Tagging Jams.
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> because owner is always an admin.
<cprofitt> knome: I can raise the CC question with the CC when we meet next Thursday
<knome> even if the owner wasn't a member of the team.
<knome> cprofitt, that would be good
<cprofitt> tagging jams would be cool
<knome> cprofitt, you happen to be in the CC as well? :)
<cprofitt> Yes
<knome> cool.
<knome> and then, not so cool
<belkinsa> We could organize one soon.
<knome> small amount of people doing lots
<cprofitt> why not so cool?
<cprofitt> true...
<cprofitt> but I am very focused on increasing the number of people learning to take on roles in the community
<knome> yep, not doubting that
<belkinsa> I'm the same, it seems.
<belkinsa> Since most of my work seems to fall into the community part
<cprofitt> It is amazing to think that several of us all were once on a team known as the Ubuntu Beginners Team
<belkinsa> And that's a dead team now, right?
<cprofitt> belkinsa: it is a team that is no longer
<cprofitt> it started with a broad based of people, but only a small number stayed active
<belkinsa> Okay, I think it's removed from the team list
<cprofitt> and as we took on leadership in other parts of Ubuntu we were unable to handoff leadership to others
<cprofitt> it was one of the key points were I realized we had to do more as a community to encourage people to grow in to leadership positions
<belkinsa> Good move.
<belkinsa> Sigh, maybe I should get training on what to delete and apply to the admins team.
<knome> we need low-level contributors as well.
<knome> if we don't have those, there's no need for admins.
<belkinsa> True, true.
<cprofitt> +1
<belkinsa> I don't know why I joined the team.  Maybe just because of my MoinMoin skills that I use in Ubuntu Women.  Though I can put those in power, but I might need to find a set of pages to work on.
<cprofitt> alright just deleted the Beagle wiki pages
<knome> nice work
 * knome is cheering for cprofitt
<knome> only 118 to go
<belkinsa> \o/
<cprofitt> yeah... had I known I was the only wiki admin active I would have reviewed these before
<cprofitt> looks like the Acer One docs should be updated...
<cprofitt> what do you guys think...
<belkinsa> I think those moved or something
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne
<cprofitt> there are articles about old unsupported versions...
<cprofitt> but I believe Acer is still producing machines under that moniker
<belkinsa> Don't know,
<belkinsa> ask in forums or something?
<cprofitt> there are questions on Ask Ubuntu about the models using 13.04
<belkinsa> But no wiki pages?
<knome> cprofitt, i removed the outdated upgrade instructions
<cprofitt> yeah... wiki pages end at 10.04
<knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Unsupported/List
<knome> cprofitt, also interesting list.
<cprofitt> yep
<knome> there's lot of the same pages then in delete list
<belkinsa> Okay, I think it could be deleted.
<knome> maybe those which appear in both could be simply deleted?
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> we likely need to adopt a policy in regards to when pages should be deleted
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> I will be updating the Joomla pages
<belkinsa> That's what is needed.  A policy,
<cprofitt> wish we could get reports on how much these pages are viewed
<cprofitt> that would help with making some decisions too
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<belkinsa> But that's another ticket, but a well needed one.
<cprofitt> potentially tracking these deletions with launchpad as bugs would help raise awareness
<belkinsa> That could work.
<knome> sounds like a lot of work for really old pages
<cprofitt> I would only do it moving forward
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> I allows us to track the work as the rest of the projects do
<cprofitt> bugs for updates and deletions
<cprofitt> personally I think all unsupported version tagged pages should also have needs updating or candidate for deletion marks
<cprofitt> depending on which way things are leaning
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<knome> so in that case, shouldn't we just delete all pages that have both the unsupported and delete tags?
<belkinsa> And the updating ones could have some flow that is easier to read.
<cprofitt> just tripped over this page...
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AcerAspire1410
<cprofitt> that is way out of date
<belkinsa> That can go.
<knome> hmm, useful!
<belkinsa> Oh, wait, never mind
<belkinsa> Needs updating tag, if possible, on that page
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Aspire1810TZ/Karmic
<cprofitt> it points to that page which does not exist
<knome> delete the page.
<cprofitt> I think deletion might be better
<belkinsa> Okay, I agree.
<belkinsa> Maybe that could be also a perimeter what can be deleted.  What other pages are linked in it.
<cprofitt> this page has been given a bit of care
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne522
<belkinsa> Keep it, too recent.
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> I am
<cprofitt> it shows that other models could have been udpate too though
<belkinsa> Cool
<knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS :P
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOneAOD250
<cprofitt> same as that one
<cprofitt> knome: I think we should redirect that
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> if there is a page that handles that topic for recent releases
<belkinsa> But the Dapper one can go
<knome> this is where i disagree with people moest
<knome> *most
<knome> really, a redirection? :)
<cprofitt> It depends... for dapper I would not redirect
<belkinsa> Sigh, no standards.
<knome> EncryptedFilesystemUsingDm-CryptOnDapper
<knome> EncryptedFilesystemUsingLUKSandRemovesKeysOnDapper
<knome> EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS
<knome> i would simply delete all those pages.
<cprofitt> I guess really we would only go back to 12.04 for a redirect
<cprofitt> the issue is the page might be linked too
<knome> from another outdated resource?
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystems
<belkinsa> knome: Go a head
<cprofitt> yes
<cprofitt> an outdated page that needs to be updated
<belkinsa> +1
<belkinsa> Wait. Never mind.
<cprofitt> at times even Google
<cprofitt> https://www.google.com/#q=Encrypted+File+Systems+Ubuntu
<belkinsa> First linkk is that page
<knome> deleted those
<knome> second for me, but sure
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2
 * cprofitt facepalms
<cprofitt> that is for 5.10
<knome> ;)
<belkinsa> Damn!
<belkinsa> Off with its head!
<cprofitt> is any of the information still valid
<belkinsa> Right.
<belkinsa> Duh.
<cprofitt> this is one of those area in which I do not know
<belkinsa> Same
<cprofitt> so it might still work in 13.04
<belkinsa> Who might though?
<cprofitt> I do not know
<belkinsa> Maybe a call on a mailing list is needed or something.
<cprofitt> I think we mark it for needs update and push it to the mailing list
<belkinsa> Okay
<cprofitt> that area is a mess though
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto3
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto
<cprofitt> oops
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2
<belkinsa> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1 is not a page
<cprofitt> yes, 1 is not
<cprofitt> meant to type 2
<cprofitt> it goes 2 - 7
<cprofitt> 8
<cprofitt> even
<belkinsa> Dang.
<belkinsa> And those needs a rewrite
<cprofitt> a merge and a re-write
<belkinsa> First person, no-no.  Right?
<cprofitt> no need for 9 total pages all covering roughly the same thing
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<cprofitt> yes, first person really should not be used in documentation
<knome> this is the help wiki though, not documentation
<knome> ;)
<belkinsa> Yes.
<knome> cprofitt, do you thikn we'd lost much if you deleted 2-9?
<cprofitt> knome - maybe not... but I would push this to the list first
<cprofitt> perhaps say --
<cprofitt> we found these pages -- they appear to be out of date, but a great deal of work was put in to them
<knome> from my POV, there's always space for variation and moving bits
<knome> if they look to be really close to each other, it probably isn't worth it to save them all
<cprofitt> if someone withc knowleged on the subject could work on merging/updating them it would be appreciated
<belkinsa> Maybe lump them in one sandbox page?
<belkinsa> Or that.
<cprofitt> In order to clean things up we will review this again in 30 days
<belkinsa> That works.
<knome> would probably be easier to write a new page from scratch
<cprofitt> and delete all but one page (hopefully an updated page)
<cprofitt> knome: I agree
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> but I find having the old one to make me think about what needs to be covered helps
<knome> sure
<cprofitt> I am keeping the Joomla page around while I create the new one
<belkinsa> Yeah, some base to work off of.
<belkinsa> That's the point of sandboxes.
<cprofitt> I should do that tonight
<cprofitt> turn this http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/joomla-on-ubuntu-server-13-10/
<cprofitt> in to a wiki article
<cprofitt> I did that when 13.10 was still not released
<knome> joomla article on a blog running wordpress... oops :)
<belkinsa> Idea: maybe the wiki admins and the wiki folks could have monthly jams to get the wiki cleaned up.
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> I think we should talk to the loco council about organizing a global wiki jam event
<belkinsa> I have tried.
<belkinsa> Well, in the LoCo Contacts list
<cprofitt> belkinsa: I want to go straight to the council
<cprofitt> and work with jorge as well
<belkinsa> Oh/
<knome> cprofitt, ping skellat.
<cprofitt> +1 knome
<cprofitt> skellat will help us out
<belkinsa> I can get him
<belkinsa> I told him
<cprofitt> thanks skellat
<cprofitt> I was about to ask you to come over here
<cprofitt> thanks for joining us
<skellat> How may I serve you?
<cprofitt> we were just discussing the potential of organizing a global wiki doc jam
<cprofitt> and thought we should discuss with the loco council
<knome> skellat, i'd like a blanket and some hot chocolate
<skellat> knome: At this hour that would have to be ICBM-launched, you know :-)
<knome> hehe
<cprofitt> skellat: Amazon might lone you a drone
<belkinsa> And maybe do this for every cycle.
<skellat> Okay
<belkinsa> If needed.
<cprofitt> I think every cycle could be useful
<cprofitt> if nothing else help tag article that need to be updated for the new release
<knome> once the wiki is in better shape, regular maintaining should keep us in a relatively good shape
<belkinsa> And to get others to work on updating those pages.
<belkinsa> Those who have those technical skills for those programs.
<cprofitt> skellat: I think the good thing is that we have a very dedicated and active group of people interested in working on developing the framework for an event
<skellat> First question: What do you want to have as the outcome for wiki doc jam #1?
<cprofitt> likely to need to do some classroom time -- or Google Hangout stuff
<knome> outcome?
<skellat> knome: Results
<cprofitt> I think every jam would have to have a training component - get new people trained on how to assist with the Wiki
<belkinsa> A cleaner wiki then what we have?
<knome> one thing i could think of is getting the pages marked for deletion either deleted or updated
<cprofitt> overall goal is to have a up to date wiki
<belkinsa> That too of cprofitt's idea.
<knome> (a practical goal)
<cprofitt> a) get people trained on how to help
<skellat> Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-bound
<knome> other one is to tag/categorize all pages
<cprofitt> are you breaking out SMART on my skellat
<cprofitt> :-)
<belkinsa> Yes, and that can get others to fix them.
<knome> then we could look at some reorganization
<skellat> cprofitt: :-)
<cprofitt> belkinsa and knome
<cprofitt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria
<knome> the current way how things work seems to be "throw a page in the root"
<cprofitt> check that out for what skellat is looking for
<belkinsa> Oh, right, SMART.
<knome> i think i have proposed a few that fit the SMART definition ;)
 * skellat admits he spent some time in the private sector
<cprofitt> skellat: Boy Scout training covers that
<knome> now now, let's not go into the private sectors ;)
<belkinsa> xD
<cprofitt> I think skellat is correct that we need to develop something that fits SMART
<cprofitt> it will make it easier to move forward
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> cprofitt, "either delete or update all pages marked for deletion" ?
<skellat> I do follow the ubuntu-doc e-mail discussions
<skellat> There is frankly a ton that could be done
<cprofitt> just knowing that the idea is interesting to the LoCo council is a good enough to get started thing
<belkinsa> That works.
<cprofitt> yes, the mailing list will work for follow up
<skellat> I'm always in favor of good documentation
<knome> after that we should have like 1-100 less pages to maintain/worry about.
<cprofitt> we will likely start a mail thread on it tonight
<cprofitt> skellat: there is a cubic butt-tonne of stuff to do on the wiki
<knome> i'm likely to hit the sack soon, but i'll get to it tomorrow
<belkinsa> Um, it's not documentation, skellat.
<cprofitt> knome: I can write the kick-off email tonight
<knome> i'll gladly let you lot do it :)
<skellat> belkinsa: For LoCo Council, the wiki **is** our documentation
<skellat> At least in regards to our pages
<belkinsa> Oh, right.  But for support, that's a different story.
<knome> i guess there are some documentationish parts
<skellat> Yep
<knome> and some flavors seem to maintain their documentation there as well
<skellat> Kubuntu has been doing that somewhat, if memory serves, then translating their stuff back to Docbook
<knome> weird workflow, but whatever works for people
 * belkinsa nods
<skellat> knome: We have the most conventional docs workflow over in Xubuntu land
<knome> yes
<knome> courtesy of knome ;)=
<belkinsa> xD
<skellat> Okay
<knome> but yeah, i'm off to bed
<cprofitt> so we will work on this a bit skellat
<belkinsa> skellat, thanks for for your help here
<knome> it's 4am and my head hurts
<belkinsa> knome: night.
<cprofitt> and then try to give a proposal to the LoCo council
<cprofitt> night knome
<knome> great
<knome> see you later:)
<skellat> cprofitt: At this point, it may be best to triage down to your three most burning issues and then pick one or two you will want to have something done on
<cprofitt> yep, I agree
<skellat> We just had another US state LoCo fall into the Council's ownership today
<skellat> Which means we own 2 now
<cprofitt> skellat: which one?
<skellat> Massachusetts
<cprofitt> ouch
<belkinsa> What happened?
<skellat> I sent out a bunch of Verification bug notices last night and that usually tells us when Points of Contact are no longer Points of Contact.
<skellat> Please don't forget to also ask individual communities to gauge their interest in participating in a docs jam.
<skellat> If there is nothing else, I have an SRU bug I need to get back to starting the write-up on...
<belkinsa> I see.
<belkinsa> I think we are good now.
<belkinsa> Thank you again
<cprofitt> skellat: yes, I can ping the loco list
<cprofitt> thanks skellat
<cprofitt> belkinsa: know about this page
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage
<belkinsa> That can go.  I remember updating a link somewhere to the new Icons Page.
<cprofitt> I think we need to update it
<cprofitt> unless there is a new one
<belkinsa> There is.
<cprofitt> there is a better one on wiki.ubuntu.com
<belkinsa> Give me a sec
<cprofitt> not sure if those are connected though
<belkinsa> yeah, it's that one.
<belkinsa> I think
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage/32pixel
<belkinsa> Yes, that one.  But I will check something first
<cprofitt> I started the 32 pixel page
<cprofitt> good to see it is still there
<belkinsa> But is it needed?
<cprofitt> I think the help.ubuntu.com/Community one should likely be updated
<cprofitt> and only have icons used for the help wiki
<cprofitt> I like the 32 pixel page because it organized things to a specific size
<cprofitt> which made it easier to keep things consistent
<belkinsa> That could work.
<belkinsa> Because I fixed a page with that issue here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017743.html
<cprofitt> the main icons page was all over the place
<belkinsa> And used that link from the ubuntu.com one
<belkinsa> Because it was outdated
<cprofitt> I am just not sure if the two wikis are hosted together...
<cprofitt> if not lining the icons may be more difficult
<belkinsa> Another ticket to IS?
<cprofitt> attachment:IconsPage/IconUbuntu.png
<cprofitt> No, not ticket to IS
<cprofitt> I think we just have to test...
<belkinsa> Yeah, that's been a question of mine.  Why the two wikis?   I know is one is support and the other is for other things, but is it needed?
<cprofitt> and if it does not work we can manually edit the icons page
<belkinsa> Okay, that works.
<cprofitt> I think they are
<cprofitt> wiki.ubuntu.com is for teams/people
<cprofitt> help.ubuntu.com is for help
<belkinsa> I hope most things aren't scattered.
<cprofitt> they should not be...
<belkinsa> Unless some users messed up like me.
<cprofitt> those things can always be fixed
<belkinsa> Right
<cprofitt> anyone want to review a candidate
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/Joomla
<cprofitt> to replace
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Joomla
<cprofitt> I think we point them to official documentation for administering the site
<cprofitt> Joomla's official documentation
<cprofitt> Atamira: hello
<Atamira> after cprofitt
<Atamira> brb. system restart after an update
<cprofitt> k
<cprofitt> Atamira: I just updated this
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Joomla
<Atamira> mmm. that could be helpful
<Atamira> i might give that a go
<Atamira> once i get rid of half the files on this pc
<cprofitt> cool
<cprofitt> hello all
<knome> hey cprofitt
<cprofitt> knome: did you catch my email to the list about the global jam?
<knome> yep
<cprofitt> what are your thoughts?
<knome> sounds good
<knome> we should start discussing different policies on deleting/renaming pages
<cprofitt> yes, we should
<cprofitt> I really like the suggestion from Wesley to do a main page then have sub pages for specific versions too
<knome> yep
<cprofitt> so, we want to revise and discuss standards for help.ubuntu.com/community
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
<cprofitt> likely starting with this page
<cprofitt> knome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks/Organization
<knome> yep.
<knome> that's not explicit on the subpages
<cprofitt> we might want to revise that page
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<knome> there should be a clear outline of the subpages we want
<cprofitt> that page would be important too
<knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/NEBLAcp4eo
<knome> one of my questions is if we want to do rewrites?
<knome> and for how long
<knome> or should we keep them forever?
<knome> because in that case, why bother renaming
<cprofitt> I agree... I would not want to rename.
<knome> i kind of would.
<knome> ultimately, people will find the new pages.
<knome> and if it's nicely organized, even more so
<knome> and easier to maintain as well
<cprofitt> true... I wonder if instead of rename -- do a redirect though
<knome> redirects are meh as well
<knome> if we want to do them, fine
<knome> but that means we will need to keep the wrongly named pages as long as we have the redirects
<cprofitt> true
<cprofitt> or perhaps say rename for six months
<knome> that's a compromise, but...
<knome> is that really necessary?
<cprofitt> we really need to have standards set for how to move, redirect, delete
<knome> people will keep linking to the old pages for that 6 months
<cprofitt> knome: I am not sure... it depends on how much stuff is linked to it
<cprofitt> again -- getting some traffic statistics would help
<knome> then when we delete the redirect...
<cprofitt> if I have a page with 3 visits delete
<knome> internal linking is the smallest problem we have tbh
<cprofitt> if I have a page with 3000 visits... not sure I want to lose the traffic
<knome> the bigger problem is getting the external links updated
<cprofitt> yes, internal linking should work itself out
<cprofitt> the external ones are the ones I am nervous about
<knome> if there's 3000 visits, the people will be able to find the new page
<cprofitt> particularly if 'official docs' link to external content on the community wiki
<knome> because ultimately, formatting the pages in better structure makes them more findable
<cprofitt> I would not want an end user to click on a link in official system docs and get page not found
<knome> and even more ultimately...
<knome> we wouldn't need any categories
<knome> because the parent page works as a category
<knome> it's relatively easy to check the official docs for links to the community help wiki
<knome> so i wouldn't be worried about that either
<cprofitt> I think we really need to break this down in to bite size chunks
<cprofitt> and decide what goes first
<cprofitt> try to get three of the chunks done by 14.04 release
<cprofitt> and then define three more
<knome> :)
<cprofitt> this appears to be large and over whelming when you look at it as a whole
<knome> once we get the policies up, people can proceed even faster
<knome> i like those challenges.
<belkinsa> Will whatever is being talked about be posted in the mailing list?
<knome> but only as long as you are allowed to go ahead at some point :)
<cprofitt> so chunk 1)  Develop policy regarding new strucutre
<cprofitt> 2) Create top level pages for new strucutre
<knome> i'm actually quite sure those exist already
<knome> pleia2, ping
<cprofitt> the policy?
<knome> 2)
<hannie> hi guys (and girls). I just read the emails about structuring the pages. Good idea. I just follow this conversation out of interest.
<belkinsa> They may, but just not being actively used.
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Hardware
<cprofitt> hardware does
<knome> hannie, welcome lurking
<hannie> :)
<belkinsa> Hello there, hannie.
<cprofitt> but that is OLD
<cprofitt> hello hannie
<belkinsa> True, true.
<knome> cprofitt, i'm thinking a lot of the structure is laid out in the topics on the front page
<knome> cprofitt, if you get what i mean...
<cprofitt> +1
<knome> or if not, then the front page needs updating :)
<belkinsa> +1
<cprofitt> take a look at the Hardware section...
<slickymaster> hi hannie
<hannie> hi david
<cprofitt> with the proposal you made would we need the Drives and Partitions to be
<cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Hardware/DrivesAndPartitions
<cprofitt> instead of what it is currently?
<belkinsa> Not a page,
<belkinsa> Oh, wait.  Never mind.
<cprofitt> do we need a tag then to help find all the Hardware related pages?
<knome> cprofitt, not sure if "partitions" has anything to do with hardware...
<cprofitt> ... we currently use a category right?
<knome> CategoryHardware, it looks like
<cprofitt> knome: that is the other issue -- how many things are vague and might belong in two areas
<cprofitt> the categories allow for that
<knome> well partitions and encryption do not belong in hardware
<cprofitt> true
<knome> they should have their own area somewhere else
<cprofitt> though they are related
<knome> and that could be surely linked from the drives-hardware area
<cprofitt> so what is our first step or goal?
<cprofitt> update the wiki guide?
<knome> i would say that needs to be updated as we go
<cprofitt> well... that would be second I guess
<cprofitt> first we have to agree on the new structure
<cprofitt> then upgrade the guide
<knome> that
<cprofitt> adjust as we go
<knome> the other thing is to delete pages as we go.
<hannie> Could the categories be in sync with Ask Ubuntu?
<cprofitt> hannie: possibly
<cprofitt> we would have to look at those
<knome> hannie, is there a page that lists those?
<hannie> I'll have a look...
<cprofitt> http://askubuntu.com/tags
<cprofitt> there are a cubic butt-tonne of them
<hannie> cprofitt, nice
<cprofitt> we could use some of those, but not all
<knome> ah, the tags
<hannie> agree, too many
<knome> i don't think that helps with creating the structure
<hannie> I think it could. Just leave out all the version tags and use the main categories
<knome> how do you filter the main categories out?
<knome> there's a tag called 'nautilus'
<knome> that's far from what we wish to use
<hannie> you could make a tag "file managers"
<knome> or just nautilus under the software
<belkinsa> Syncing the categories would be nice for AskUbuntu, too.
<knome> cprofitt, the software is going to be one nasty thing to structure.
<cprofitt> yep
<cprofitt> I added the goal to the wiki page I created last night
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/WikiJamDraft
<cprofitt> does that work?
<knome> yes
<belkinsa> I like it.
<hannie> Software is too general. You can break that down in sub-categories
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> i'll be back in an hour at most. i'll start working on the proposed structure then.
<knome> (stay tuned!)
<cprofitt> knome: thanks
<hannie> knome, see you
<cprofitt> anyone can contribute to the ether pad page
<cprofitt> hannie belkinsa and slickymaster
<belkinsa> Yes?
<belkinsa> Oh, right, right, I know.
<slickymaster> yes
<cprofitt> feel free to add to the etherpad
<hannie> still present ;)
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> I truly appreciate all the activity, good ideas and effort guys
<slickymaster> I'm just catching up on the mails from this weekend (dozen of them)  ;)
<cprofitt> slickymaster: yes, it is good to have dozens of them
<hannie> I am glad to see the docs team revive
<cprofitt> these have all been very positive too
<slickymaster> well, I'm used to
<cprofitt> sometimes when you get dozens of them its just a flamewar
<slickymaster> knome, keeps es very busy in the xubuntu teams
<belkinsa> Thank you cprofitt for getting us going again
<slickymaster> +1
<cprofitt> I deserve no credit
<hannie> 60 emails this morning...
<cprofitt> knome is the one who kicked the tires...
<cprofitt> I just heard the noise and woke up
<cprofitt> :-)
<belkinsa> Oh, right, knome got us going.
<belkinsa> Thanks knome!
<belkinsa> But you helped.
<cprofitt> Thanks... I do what I can.
<hannie> I have to go. See you later. Keep up the good spirit :)
<cprofitt> with three little ones it is at time rough
<cprofitt> see you later hannie
<slickymaster> cy hannie
<belkinsa> Later hannie
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
<belkinsa> That's still useful, right?
<cprofitt> I think it is a bit old, but gives us some history
<cprofitt> I think the current tag system was a result of that
<belkinsa> Yeah
<cprofitt> belkinsa: take a look at the top of the Etherpad... that is the proposed strucutre from knome
<belkinsa> Did I do something wrong?
<cprofitt> no, not at all
<cprofitt> I just wanted to make sure you had seen that
<belkinsa> I have seen it.
<cprofitt> cool
<belkinsa> My edits are in that green color.
<belkinsa> Edits/thoughts*
<cprofitt> still thinking about it
<cprofitt> just updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/WikiJamDraft
<belkinsa> Same, and multitasking.
<cprofitt> this is a very large project and we have to ensure we break it up in to little bites
<belkinsa> Right.
<cprofitt> so we can find success by not getting lost in larger things that never seem to finish
<cprofitt> particularly as we look for others to assist -- things have to be very obviously easy to accomplish
<belkinsa> Agreed.  I know that we need some technical folks in to make calls.
<belkinsa> I Tweeted something about us: Thanks to knome, @indigo196, and the rest of the wiki editting folks of the #Ubuntu Doc Team for working on getting the wiki cleaned up!
<pleia2> hehe, taking saturdays off sure means I miss a lot sometimes!
<cprofitt> thanks
<pleia2> busy day yesterday :)
<cprofitt> hey pleia2
<cprofitt> yeah... I was home with a sick boy so I had a bit more time than planned
<pleia2> knome: pong
<cprofitt> I had to skip random hacks of kindness
<belkinsa> Hey pleia2.  We been busy this weekend in here.
<cprofitt> knome said he would be out for a bit
<pleia2> cprofitt: aw, bummer, hope he's feeling better
<cprofitt> he is
<cprofitt> he is upstairs playing minecraft
<cprofitt> I am making him earn game time by working on Python programming
<knome> i'm really afk, but do you have an hour or so today for a quick sprint?
<pleia2> cprofitt: hehe
<pleia2> knome: probably, on?
<belkinsa> The pad if you want to help working on structure of wiki pages: http://pad.ubuntu.com/NEBLAcp4eo (to pleia2)
<knome> pleia2, whatever works for you. 19UTC?
<belkinsa> knome started it.
<pleia2> knome: sure, but I meant what about? :)
<knome> pleia2, aha :)
<knome> pleia2, about the community help wiki restructuring and setting some policies regarding deleting/renaming/redirecting
<pleia2> today was supposed to be spent working with one of the partimus folks on a lubuntu iso for one of our schools, but much schedule chaos on his side
<knome> pleia2, and "expiring" pages
<pleia2> knome: ok, I thought the current documentation on all of that was pretty clear
<knome> pleia2, not really...
 * pleia2 looks at the pad
<knome> and there isn't really active admins in addition to us and cprofitt, and maybe somebody else
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> hey look at that, I got added to editors while I was day offing
<knome> the current documentation sets some general guidelines, but doesn't explicitly define anything
<knome> pleia2, as i said, lots of wiki admin goodness ;)
<knome> pleia2, the front page is also updated.
<pleia2> great
<knome> let's kick the stuff going seriously, like we did with the xubuntu docs and much more
<pleia2> we should talk about it ;)
<knome> nah.
<cprofitt> alright... gotta be afk for a while -- lunch time and time to spend with the kids
<pleia2> enjoy
<slacker_nl> cprofitt: thnx (re my suggestion ;))
<belkinsa> Did I miss anything?
<pleia2> cprofitt went to lunch :)
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> Somehow I can't connect to my Yahoo account with Thunderbird.  It seems to timeout and I have restart my computer.
<pleia2> I didn't even realize yahoo offered that
<belkinsa> Most E-mail services allow it.  But somehow the retention rules don't stay what they should be.
<pleia2> last I looked, pop access was a paid feature for yahoo
<belkinsa> Well, the popular three.
<pleia2> I guess they've finally entered the 21st century :)
<belkinsa> They have.
<belkinsa> But I use the other one
<belkinsa> Does anyone know how useful this New Docs thing is (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs)?
<slickymaster> belkinsa, :)
<slickymaster> belkinsa, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs was started in the UF and it's still, and continuously a WIP
<belkinsa> I see.
<slickymaster> we started it earlier this year, in January to be exact
<belkinsa> I like the idea of the most popular pages.
<belkinsa> Maybe that could be tied in what we are planning to do with the wiki clean up.
<slickymaster> and we aimed  it to be  user friendly and fast work resource, enabling users of all skill levels to find the information they need to become proficient with their operating system of choice.
<slickymaster> yes
<belkinsa> Okay.  Are you planning to add a link to the front page of the Community Help wiki?
<slickymaster> belkinsa,  there's something I've created there which is the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ToBeReviewed
<slickymaster> please take a look because it's something that we're also talking' about as it addresses the outdated issue of a lot of pages in the wiki
<belkinsa> Sure.
<slickymaster> yes, I'm planning on adding that link
<slickymaster> belkinsa, just FYI and in case you're interested https://launchpad.net/~newdocs
<belkinsa> That's what caught my eye, is the LP link to the NewDocs.
<slickymaster> ah, okay :)
<belkinsa> Is there a requirement to join?
<slickymaster> no, just hit the link. I'll be more then glad to welcome you
<belkinsa> Okay, thank you.
<knome> pleia2, ping. i'm available if you are
<slickymaster> it's a major gain for the all team to have you aboard
<pleia2> knome: what, it's not 19 yet
<knome> pleia2, i know! sick, isn't it
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> wife has gone to work, i have my tummy full
<pleia2> I am arguing with people on the internet, give me a few minuts
<knome> sure :)
<belkinsa> slickymaster: I joined.
<knome> slickymaster, what's 48HourUpdating?
<slickymaster> belkinsa, you honor us with your presence
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<belkinsa> You do all of your work via the mailing-list?
<slickymaster> yes, so far
<belkinsa> Okay.
<slickymaster> before the creation of the team it was done through PM in the UF
<slickymaster> and some of it through http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2110857
<belkinsa> I saw the thread.
<slickymaster> you asked about 48HourUpdating
<belkinsa> No, knome did.
<slickymaster> I must confess that I'm not aware of what that is.
<slickymaster> where did you saw ity?
<knome> in the title index.
<slickymaster> don't have the slightest idea of what it is
<slickymaster> oh wait
<slickymaster> yes I know
<belkinsa> slickymaster: should I introduce myself to the list of the NewDocs team?
<slickymaster> that's the sandbox area that https://launchpad.net/~taurusone (who originally came up with the idea of NewDocs)
<slickymaster> when he first started to make his editing in the wiki
<slickymaster> belkinsa, yes you could do that, I think the team would appreciate taht
<belkinsa> Okay.
<knome> pleia2, i've been removing "personal" pages from the wiki
<pleia2> what's a personal page?
<knome> those are either really useless and/or really old
<knome> example: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DavidDecotigny
 * slickymaster hopes that knome won't wipe out his from the face of the wiki :)
<knome> slickymaster, if you have a personal page... move it to wiki.ubuntu.com while you can ;)
<knome> nah, i've kept pages that seem to be somewahat carefully crafted and updated in the last 3 years
 * slickymaster one is already ther
<slickymaster> there ^^
<knome> that'd make all of the 0 pages
<knome> pleia2, did you look already?
<pleia2> knome: so my only concern is that this will demotivate people, I'd suggest a process more like: email person whose page it is to move to wiki.ubuntu.com, explaining that it doesn't belong on help.ubuntu.com, delete it in 2 weeks
<knome> most of them are "last edited" in 2008, by "localhost" (wiki migration clearly)
<knome> i don't have any concerns, or guilty over removing people's pages
<slickymaster> afk
<knome> i guess that's why i'm the right person to do this :P
<belkinsa> +1 to pleia2's idea.
<pleia2> knome: deleting pages is bad :(
<knome> yes, i am bad
<pleia2> a lot of people really don't understand the difference between the wikis
<knome> as i said
<knome>  i've kept pages that seem to be somewahat carefully crafted and updated in the last 3 years
<knome> all 0 of them.
<pleia2> heh
<knome> no, seriously.
<knome> they. aren't. needed.
<pleia2> ok ok
<pleia2> but if we do find current ones, let them know :)
<knome> most definitely
<knome> or actually,
<knome> i will just move them to wiki. ...
<knome> and let them know then.
<knome> IF i meet those pages ;)
<knome> such pages should be against the community wiki rules
<knome> i'm not kidding... :)
<knome> pleia2, did you finish arguing with (other) people already?
<pleia2> yep
<knome> ok, let me get rid of the F's
<belkinsa> AFK
<belkinsa> Er, so not needed.
<knome> so, the pad
<knome> what's your take on the questions listed?
 * pleia2 looks
<slickymaster> +1 on knome's idea of deleting those pages. Clearly 5 years is long time frame and can considered as abandoned pages
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Apache
<knome> WHAT?
<slickymaster> LOL
<slickymaster> someone really take over that one
<knome> nope, it never was related to apache the web server
<knome> pleia2, one last chance to see it before it goes! ;)
<pleia2> I think I need some caffeine before I fight with knome on all of this
<knome> oki
<slickymaster> oh, I thought it was
<pleia2> knome: seriously, don't just delete things
<knome> i'll be removing pages while you are away
<pleia2> we need to set up redirects
<knome> these are personal pages.
<knome> most of them say email addresses
<pleia2> ok ok
<knome> or "find me at wiki.ubuntu.com/SamePerson"
<knome> i wouldn't delete anything precious
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Apache/EnablingModRewrite
<knome> heh.
<knome> freaky.
<knome> somebody built on it.
<slickymaster> and that's somehow  related to the web server
<knome> yep
<pleia2> ack, that's not a redbull
<pleia2> too many cans
<pleia2> ok, the first question has me troubled
<knome> the first real question
<pleia2> I am not a huge fan of a whole overhaul here
<knome> or the first first question
<pleia2> coming up with a structure means never-ending work maintaining it as random people come and create pages in crazy places
<knome> me neither, but i guess you can see the benefits of having the pages structured?
<knome> pleia2, sure... but not being in a structure means never-ending work maintaining the categories
<pleia2> we can't just *move* them, since people link to them immediately after creation, so it's redirecting
<knome> that's true
<pleia2> my favorite part is when the etherpad randomly logs me out
<knome> that's always cool!
<belkinsa> I heard that happened during a LoCo vUDS session for this cycle
<pleia2> we can plan structure all day long, but I don't think people will use it
<knome> pleia2, what's your take on the lifecycle of a page?
<knome> my point is that creating a structure helps the maintainers
<knome> i thought there was awfully lot of pages in the wiki
<knome> but ultimately... there isn't *too* many
<knome> it's doable
<pleia2> ok, I think coming up with guidelines for how it should work is good, so if people want to follow the rules..
<pleia2> as for lifecycle, I don't think we should have one ;)
<belkinsa> Why?
<belkinsa> Too much work?
<belkinsa> For a wiki?
<knome> you probably knew i'd disagree :)
<pleia2> every cycle our first job would be adding the 14.04 tag to every single page
<pleia2> that's insane
<pleia2> unmaintainable ;)
<belkinsa> RIght/
<knome> i'm not suggesting that.
<knome> i'm suggesting that if we find a page that targets dapper and only dapper, we should delete that page.
<belkinsa> But if it was automatic, would a tag that had the month and year be possible?
<knome> pleia2, and i know you disagree...
<pleia2> I do
<belkinsa> Scratch that.
<knome> the idea that came up in the mailing list was to create subpages per release
<pleia2> that's even worse :)
<knome> because?
<pleia2> tons of duplication
<pleia2> postfix doesn't change a lot
<pleia2> one for every release? what if there is a bug in that doc, fix on 6 pages?
<pleia2> so much maintenance overhead
<knome> no need to do that if the changes are small
<slickymaster> yes
<pleia2> plus sometimes we need dapper docs, a tiny embedded systems using an old unsupported version exist, I hate deleting history
<knome> but if there is already several pages for the same thing, all targeting different release
<belkinsa> Too bad we have no achiving system
<pleia2> but then the assumption would be "no postfix page under 14.04? I guess there are no docs, not "oh, I should look under 13.10"
<knome> pleia2, there should always be a main page that's the "current" information
<knome> pleia2, which applies to the latest version unless otherwise mentioned
<pleia2> knome: and who maintains that exactly?
<knome> who maintains the wiki anyway?
<pleia2> that's the trouble, you end up with a
<knome> "current" being latest information available
<pleia2> "current" page that is not current, it's confusing
<knome> it's not called "current"
<knome> it's just called HelpTopic/
<belkinsa> You guys.  :) the admins, I think, but the the upper level ones.
<knome> and the old versions are at HelpTopic/12.04
<pleia2> belkinsa: haha
<pleia2> nooo
<pleia2> knome: I prefer just using version tags
<pleia2> and create an "All" tag too
<knome> pleia2, but oh the work of adding version tags for each page after we release a new release
<knome> pleia2, isn't that what you just argumented.
<pleia2> knome: I am going back to that bad idea because this bad idea is worse :)
<knome> so hear my another idea
<knome> which i think is superior to both
<pleia2> ok
<knome> tag the pages with the creating/last review month.
<knome> last review not being the last modification date
<knome> because that can be a minor thing, or a typo fix
<knome> that way we'd know "this page hasn't been reviewed for 14 months"
<pleia2> I don't know
<pleia2> this is hard to maintain too, I think we have to do the best we can with last modified
<slickymaster> knome, do you mean create a new tag just for that purpose?
<pleia2> it's not optimal, but it is a technical solution that gives some guideance
<knome> slickymaster, yep.
<knome> pleia2, some, but that guidance might be quite a lot off
<pleia2> yep, it might
<slickymaster> well that just might be the best of two worlds
<pleia2> but so will a tag that someoene doesn't understand they are supposed to update when they update a page
<knome> it's easier to monitor tag changes than page changes
<pleia2> or  even if they understand tags, "is this update important enough to change the tag for?"
<slickymaster> and faster to fix
<knome> ugh, i missed your point
<knome> yeah, i can relate to that
<knome> but the guidelines is relatively clear
<knome> *guideline
<pleia2> lol at people reading guidelines
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> people find a wiki page via google, see and error, log in and fix it
<knome> if it covers all releases at that moment, apply the new tag.
<pleia2> they don't read how
<pleia2> s/and error/an error
<knome> we're always prone to user errors
<pleia2> it's a wiki, peope just fix things
<knome> yes, and they should
<knome> and that's okay
<knome> and when they "just fix" things, we probably don't want a new tag
<knome> unless they did a huge overhaul
<knome> and the next time a wiki admin or somebody in the team sees that, they can update the tag
<knome> i mean,
<knome> it's not a problem that these tags are *outdates*
<knome> *outdated* too
<knome> because if they are, then we will go and see how the page is
<knome> and we can get those "oooh, they fixed this page" moments
<knome> and just update the tag
<pleia2> this sounds like a maintenance nightmare too
<knome> it sounds like it's harder to set up
<knome> but not as much maintaining as release tags are
<knome> or release subpages
<pleia2> how about this:
<slickymaster> the problem is that maintenance wise, most of the solutions tend to be nightmares
<pleia2> two headers about versioning
<knome> (the monthly tags i'm talking about should probably be wiki "categories" btw)
<pleia2> 1. This documentation is for <All> (tag) versions of ubuntu
<pleia2> 2. This documentation has been confirmed/tested for <10.04/11.10/12.04> (tags) versions of ubuntu
<pleia2> so then the user knows that it's supposed to cover everything, but that someone only actually reviewed it and confirmed working for some
<knome> hmm,
<pleia2> maybe wording a bit different, since both headers will be on the page
<knome> sounds like a maintaining nightmare as well.
<knome> did you read my last comment on parenthesis?
<pleia2> yes, but with the ALL tag it means we don't actually need to touch every page each release, it would be nice to make sure it's good, but we don't *have* to
<knome> so i'm not actually proposing visible "tags", just categories
<pleia2> ah
<belkinsa> Categories might be better than version tags.
<knome> so monthly categories
<knome> so we can track when certain pages are *really* reviewed the last time
<pleia2> my proposal means it's important to see the tags
<knome> or created
<belkinsa> Those too.
<knome> in my proposal, it's only important for the maintainers to know what they mean.
 * slickymaster agrees with pleia2 on visibility 
<pleia2> but we still have the problem of usings not knowing what they're looking at
<knome> the wiki page content itself should make it obvious if it should work with 14.04 or not
<pleia2> it doesn't
<knome> but it should
<pleia2> apache 1.3 looks a lot like apache 2.4 if you don't know what you're doing, and it can cause huuuge problems
<belkinsa> pleia2, yes.  Without stats, we have nothing, but only the most popular pages as what the NewDocs do.
<pleia2> belkinsa: sorry, I didn't mean popular pages there, I meant when a user looks at a page they don't know what version it's for
<belkinsa> Oh, I see.
<belkinsa> But I agree there.
<pleia2> so we do need a user-facing mechanism for indicating what version the page is for
<knome> pleia2, sure, but in that case Apache/ should probably be a landing page saying "choose your apache version"
<knome> pleia2, and then pointing to either Apache/1/ or Apache/2/
<knome> and hear,
<pleia2> knome: people don't know what apache version they're using, if they know their ubuntu version we're lucky
<knome> i'm not saying we should force that kind of structure for everything
<knome> but in some cases, it's useful at least
<belkinsa> +1
<knome> pleia2, the page should then show the user how they can find out their apache version before proceeding.
<knome> pleia2, that's a trivial thing to do in the end.
<pleia2> now we're getting all meta into software versions
<knome> we? you started that! :P
<belkinsa> Is meta good in this case?
<slickymaster> but if someone is going to edit a wiki page I think it's fair to assume that that someone will have a reasonable amount of knowledge  of what they're about to write off
<knome> meta or not, we need to make sure there aren't problems regarding that
<pleia2> this becomes worse when ubuntu changes defaults, so you may be running apache 2.4, but in raring we changed $this_default_setting so now you really need to look at ubuntu versions, not just apache
<knome> slickymaster, or at least knowledge on what page they are on. if they don't, that will need moderator intervention anyway
<slickymaster> yes
<knome> pleia2, sure, but the apache 2 page should cover that raring anomaly then.
<slickymaster> if  the pages content is accurate it should anyway
<knome> pleia2, i think we're getting sidetracked here
<pleia2> we're off in the weeds
<knome> look at the pad
<knome> i'm trying to gather our options there
<knome> so we can try to make a good choice
<belkinsa> Good move, knome.
<belkinsa> Using the pad.
<pleia2> boo, laggy freenode
<knome> pleia2, how does using the CheckedWith and the month tag together sound?
<knome> or the Targets + month tags
<pleia2> knome: I think we can try it out
<pleia2> I still worry that I'll forget to add the month tag :)
<pleia2> I am so used to using wikis where we rely upon last modified dates and checking history that it still seems unnatural for me
<knome> i see your point
<knome> but there is no way to reliably know when the last real update was done :/
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> or even,
<knome> a real check if "it still works with the latest" was done
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> i do consider that pro a big one for that
<pleia2> I mean, we do have to trust editors to some degree
<pleia2> I'm certainly not going to spend all my time confirming that the guy who updated it to say 13.10 works really checked it
<knome> heh, sure
<pleia2> that's official docs work :)
<knome> yep
<belkinsa> I agree, trust is key here.
<slickymaster> +1
<knome> so shall we talk about the subject categorizing a bit
<pleia2> ok
<knome> currently, we're using tags like CategoryHardware
<pleia2> I have a half hour left to chat about this, then I need to go work on other things
<knome> do we want to keep on using those?
<knome> that's an alternative for some structure
<knome> but that's prone for people not marking their pages as well
<knome> in the same way they can add them anywhere they like
<knome> i guess the pro is that changing/adding the category doesn't break the link
<belkinsa> +1
<pleia2> I think we keep them for now
<knome> that's not what i asked :)
<pleia2> oh
<knome> i was asking if we want to keep on doing the categorizing for new pages
<knome> and maintaining that system
<pleia2> right, that's what I was saying yes to :)
<knome> heh, ok
<belkinsa> I will say, "yes" to this too.
<knome> i guess we need to, if we don't want to create any structure
<pleia2> URL-based structure is just tough on a collaborative wiki
<pleia2> with a tight team that collaborates a lot it's easier (like teams on wiki.ubuntu.com)
<knome> more or less, yes
<pleia2> so as yucky as it is, I think we just let people continue creating pages where they think they belong, and tag them appropriately
<pleia2> err, category
<belkinsa> +1
 * slickymaster also thinks that category must be kept
<knome> icky
<pleia2> I know
<belkinsa> Since you, the admins, have the power to do that.
<pleia2> users can't set categories?
<belkinsa> They might not know how to format the link to do it.
<belkinsa> If it's /cat/sub.
<belkinsa> But that might be me.
<slickymaster> afk
<knome> if it's a category, then they just need to write CategoryCategory
<knome> eg. CategorySound
<belkinsa> Oh, I see.  Even I got it wrong.  Maybe that can be added into the style guide?
<belkinsa> If not already.
<knome> bleh.
<knome> pleia2, my last question is the translated pages...
<slickymaster> that's bound to be a Herculean task
<belkinsa> Translating?
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnCategories is linked in the docs on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting
<pleia2> cprofitt: what needs updating on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide ?
<pleia2> knome: ah yeah, I don't know
<pleia2> knome: on the ubuntu wiki we use something like /Fr/new_page_here
<pleia2> but again, structure-based, eeeghhh
<knome> pleia2, in this wiki, they float around anywhere..
<belkinsa> Oh, duh, right.  But it seems that something confusing to newbies as ballons said in the vUDS.
<pleia2> actually, looks like we did a few things
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue98/Fr heh
<knome> pleia2, oops. :)
<pleia2> so yeah, this url-based stuff is a mess
<slickymaster> sorry my ignorance but are there any .po files for the wiki documents? I'm under the impression that there aren't
<pleia2> knome: maybe just language categories?
<pleia2> slickymaster: nope
<knome> pleia2, there are already. don't know if they are working well.
<pleia2> knome: ah
<pleia2> knome: maybe we try harder to get them to work well :)
<knome> also, there aren't too many pages translated
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> so that's really scattered
<slickymaster> so the solution would be to /language of the translated page for each and every one of the pages?
<knome> some of them are also marked for deletion
<pleia2> btw, just to be clear here, we had like 2 volunteers for the past 2 years, so everything works badly right now ;)
<pleia2> I think any solutions we come up with will be a bit trial and error
<knome> don't worry, i'm expecting them to :P
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> the point is
<knome> how do we check why some of the translated pages are marked for removal?
<pleia2> ask someone :)
<pleia2> we can probably drag loco teams in to help, they are cool
<knome> what if i don't know what language it is in? :P
<pleia2> google helps
<slickymaster> yeah
<pleia2> when I go to a page, chrome offers to translate :D
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/page
<knome> there's a "page" for you
<pleia2> lol
<knome> have permission to delete?
<slickymaster> just a question, what about the future translations? how is that going to be? a /language of the translated page for each and every one of the pages?
<knome> slickymaster, i don't think that's a target
<slickymaster> oh, I see
<pleia2> knome: yes, but that's a specific case we should discuss privately
<knome> slickymaster, if people want to transalte, good, but if not... then not
<slickymaster> okie dokie
<knome> i'll rm that.
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation
<knome> that seems like something we might want to merge to the guides page or the other resources page
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocs
<knome> but what's that?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> looks like an off shot
<pleia2> huh
<belkinsa> Yeah, messy messy messy...
<knome> i saw another page that had that content
<knome> can't remember the page name, but it was something totally unrelated
<knome> i deleted the page, btw
<knome> pleia2, don't cry!
<pleia2> :P
<knome> and i'll delete this now
<slickymaster> knome, almost every item on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation is already listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation
<belkinsa> I think UsefulDocs must go.
<knome> haha
<belkinsa> Too Subjective to me
<knome> slickymaster, you're not making sense.
<slickymaster> ups
<slickymaster> already listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
<slickymaster> sorry
<knome> heh, oki
<knome> not removing *that*
<knome> (yet)
<knome> ok, i think i've purged most of the useless personal pages
 * knome is happier than before
<pleia2> congrats
<knome> heh, weird
<knome> when i go to https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<knome> the page says login to edit
<knome> but obviously i'm already logged
<belkinsa> I can access the edit
<pleia2> it works fine for me
<knome> hmm, some cache issues i guess
<belkinsa> Maybe relog in IP?
<belkinsa> Or clear cache.
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<belkinsa> Happens to me for Ubuntu Ohio.
<knome> pleia2, i noticed you and cprofitt are now watching all my moves
<knome> boo ;)
<pleia2> lol
<pleia2> I told him how to subscribe
<pleia2> to .*
<knome> i did that as well
<knome> let's see how much spam that builds
<knome> (now that i stopped playing around, probably not too much)
<pleia2> I'm interested to see how active all of this really is
<belkinsa> Me too.
<knome> pleia2, are you subscribed to trivial changes?
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<knome> i figured so
<pleia2> apparently I like pain
<pleia2> and email
<knome> haha
<belkinsa> Oh snap, you guys can see that?
<knome> "oh yay i got email"
<knome> "it's 4am and you were sleeping"
<knome> the story of lyz and her husband
<knome> just kidding!
<pleia2> lol
<belkinsa> xD
<pleia2> this is why I am not allowed to check email in the middle of the night
<pleia2> "oh, I need to reply to that"
<pleia2> sometimes I still do :(
<knome> mhm
<pleia2> bad pleia2
<knome> yep
<knome> good for us though!
<belkinsa> Hehe.
<knome> oops.
<pleia2> lol
<knome> i try to avoid your sleeping times
<knome> at least mostly
<knome> actually, i think i don't :(
<knome> only on IRC
<pleia2> lol
<belkinsa> Aren't you guys ten time zones a part?
<pleia2> I ignore when you pleia2: me anyway
<knome> yep
<pleia2> it noon!
<pleia2> it's
<belkinsa> Wait, I can count, 8.
<knome> yeah sure, it's 10pm
<belkinsa> Or nine.
<knome> no, it's ten
<pleia2> you were right :)
<belkinsa> Oh.
<knome> i'm just staying up too long on most of the nights
<belkinsa> Most people here seem too.
<knome> sometimes i've seen pleia2 and the rest of the lot across the pond go sleeping before me :/
<pleia2> I like sleeping
<knome> me too
<knome> but i like being awake as well
<pleia2> the husband and the cats are still in bed
<belkinsa> I don't know how to stay up.
<knome> pleia2, the what? "cats" ?
<knome> ;)
 * belkinsa lurks
 * belkinsa is a cat person too
<pleia2> fluffy, cause trouble
<knome> look bored in vUDS
<pleia2> lol
<pleia2> everyone looks bored in vUDS
<pleia2> :D
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<knome> hah
<knome> no standards there
<belkinsa> Well, at least we got something done for the team.
<pleia2> :)
<knome> you always got things done when you put two or more xubuntu team members together ;)
<knome> s/got/get/
<belkinsa> Will this and the pad be posted to the list for others to see?
<pleia2> someone (knome) should email what we decided re:tagging
<knome> did we decide anything?
<pleia2> in case someone wants to discuss more
<belkinsa> Yes, and the link to the pad also.  Since it all there.
<knome> i guess i can get myself together later today and send a mail
<pleia2> oh I don't know
<belkinsa> Okay, thank you.
<belkinsa> Why?
<pleia2> and I can add people to the etherpad team if they need
<pleia2> ok, for real now, I need to work on other things now
<knome> have fun!
<belkinsa> Thank you pleia2 for coming to help.  See ya around.
<knome> godbyk, since you asked so nicely... http://open.knome.fi/2013/12/07/efforts-on-documentation/
<godbyk> knome: Nicely done! Thanks!
<knome> godbyk, your turn :)
<godbyk> :)
<belkinsa> I think I need to do the same with what we talked about this weekend.
<pleia2> godbyk: you should apply for ubuntu membership :)
<knome> soudns good
<knome> i lost my ability to type
<knome> if i ever had one
<belkinsa> It seems that you have.  ;)
<belkinsa> But who was that "sounds good" too?
<knome> belkinsa, you and pleia2  ;)
<godbyk> pleia2: Yeah, I should do that sometime. I've never bothered. Do I have to collect a bunch of testimonials and the like?
<pleia2> godbyk: testimonials help, a quick note to the -doc and -manual lists should get you a pile of 'em ;)
 * belkinsa needs to do that soon, herself
<godbyk> pleia2: Okay, I'll add that to my to do list. Along with updating my wiki page.
<pleia2> your work is well documented though, it shouldnt be much work
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> belkinsa: yes yes, you too!
<godbyk> pleia2: My work *is* documentation. ;-)
<pleia2> godbyk: hehe, right
<godbyk> pleia2: I'll write an email later, but I think we should merge in the GNOME docs before we start editing the system docs.
<pleia2> godbyk: thanks, yeah, I figured there might be something like that required first
<godbyk> You know what'd be awesome? If every gamepad I bought didn't have a completely different button mapping.
<belkinsa> Does anyone have the link to the meeting logs?
<belkinsa> never mind found the
<pleia2> belkinsa: if you have some time, updating the wiki with meeting stuff would be super helpful :)
<pleia2> update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda and browse to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/DocTeam to see what we've done in the past
<belkinsa> Sure, I will.
<belkinsa> Let me finish my blog post first
<pleia2> thanks :D
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<knome> pleia2, ygm
<knome> baghh, slow wikis
<pleia2> ygm?
<knome> as in "you've got mail"
<pleia2> oh :)
<pleia2> no moar
<knome> you asked for that yourself!
<belkinsa> Yes, no moar for now.
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> looks good, thank you
<knome> moar mail for you both
<belkinsa> Yeah, I saw.
<belkinsa> But I have nothing to say to it
<knome> not all mail needs responding ;)
<knome> i'm really good at spamming pleia2's mailbox
<belkinsa> Heh
<belkinsa> Hehe*
<knome> even moar mail
<slickymaster> you keep them coming
<knome> lots of things to organize
<slickymaster> indeed
<knome> wondering if i should start spamming you two with xubuntu stuff next
 * slickymaster nods
<belkinsa> NOOOOOOO!
 * belkinsa is a Ubuntu user
<knome> belkinsa, i was referring to slickymaster and pleia2 ;)
<belkinsa> Oh.
 * slickymaster thought so
<belkinsa> pleia2 for the meeting agenda page, what should I do?  Clear out?
<pleia2> belkinsa: I think so, maybe look at history to be sure?
<belkinsa> Okay, I will.  If it loads.
<belkinsa> Is LP down or what?
<belkinsa> There we are. It loaded.
<belkinsa> Also, I will change the meeting info on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam pleia2
<pleia2> belkinsa: I don't think you want to remove the banner, just edit it
<belkinsa> I can't.  I don't know where that banner is
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingBanner?action=recall&rev=7 shows the text you want to use
<belkinsa> Thanks
<belkinsa> And fixed.
<belkinsa> Everything should correct now.
<pleia2> woohoo, thanks!
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> pleia2, one other thing, can I see the source code to the front page of Ubuntu Women wiki in order for me to work on getting a get involved story up on that page?  I'm willing to play around with it on a sandbox page on that wiki.
<pleia2> belkinsa: does this work for you? http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Home?action=raw
<belkinsa> Yeah.
<belkinsa> How did you do that?
<pleia2> under "More Actions:" dropdown selected "Raw text"
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<pleia2> sure thing :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-12-02
<dsmythies> Does anybody here have sufficient rights to change a bug report from private to public? I want bug 478097 changed back to public. It must have been in error that it was made private.
<pleia2> dsmythies: what project?
<pleia2> searched email... looks like it's ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-website, I can't see the bug now so it may have been someone on the ubuntu-website team who marked it as such
<pleia2> maybe ask in #ubuntu-website ?
<dsmythies> pleia2: It was agianst the doc package, I think. Here is a quote line (which is incorrect also): ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu)
<pleia2> (bugs against ubuntu-website are automatically private, so I could see how this could easily happen)
<slickymasterWork> dsmythies, if you're a member of Obuntu Bug Control you ought to be able to see/change it
<slickymasterWork> Ubuntu too
<pleia2> To manage notifications about this bug go to:
<pleia2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/478097/+subscriptions
<ubot2> pleia2: Error: malone bug 478097 not found
<dsmythies> It was marked and "invalid" against #ubuntu-website
<pleia2> someone in #ubuntu-bugs then perhaps
<dsmythies> slickymasterWork: I am a member of "Ubuntu Bug Control" but can not see the bug anymore.
<dsmythies> pleia2: I will try #ubuntu-bugs. Thanks.
<slickymasterWork> yeah, I can't either
#ubuntu-doc 2014-12-03
<dabbeduller> Hi. I want to write documentation in Norwegian. Do you need anyone for this?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-12-04
<gQuigs> I'm trying to clean up the wiki, and I'd like to use the special pages to help https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WantedPages  /OrphanedPages /AbandonedPages, but they never load
<developerpenguin> hey everyone :)
<developerpenguin> im new to the team :)
<VelhoP4_> man apt-get manual has translation deficiencies. the portuguese version in very complicated to read. Ive noticed that the english version is nice and simple. The translations seems to be done by google translate... can I check the manual in english, in my portuguese system?
<VelhoP4_> also, hos can I report bad translations, and help to translate this (debian?) manual?
<pleia2> VelhoP4_: looks like we pull that in directly from debian, you'll want to work with the debian translations team
<pleia2> this page seems to document how translations are done in debian: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/l10n.html
<pleia2> I don't know anything about it
<pleia2> Ubuntu's procedure is via Launchpad, very different from Debian
<sotiredofthesest> w/r/t the email from Peter: isn't the point of setting a bug to "triaged" to indicate that someone trusted has looked at the bug, ensured that it's correct, and set a priority?
<belkinsa> pmatulis, ^^^
<sotiredofthesest> Because 1327173 doesn't have a priority set, but I think it is relatively clear what the next step is, so does it matter if it's not confirmed?
<sotiredofthesest> Phrased differently: is confirmation a prerequisite for triage?
<sotiredofthesest> I'd say that the line "A member of UbuntuBugControl believes that the report describes a genuine bug in enough detail..." from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Bug%20statuses doesn't necessarily imply that, but
<sotiredofthesest> ...ultimately,  does it matter for the sake of documentation?  Presumably people writing documentation are going through step by step in a clean VM and writing the steps they take.
<belkinsa> sotiredofthesest, you can also send this to the mailing-list.  There might be more people there to reply.
<sotiredofthesest> So that they would effectively be the people confirming it at they same time that they're fixing it.
<sotiredofthesest> belkinsa, not worth an email IMO, I'm just spitballing
<belkinsa> It is, because a discussion can evolve from it.
<sotiredofthesest> That was my subtle way of saying that I don't feel comfortable broadcasting it on a mailing list. ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-12-05
<DeveloperPenguin> hey everyone
<developerpenguin> hello is anyone here ?
<developerpenguin> i  really need some help hahaah
<pmatulis> ?
<pmatulis> pleia2: around?
<pmatulis> to whoever is around:
<pmatulis> i'm trying to learn more about how our stuff gets translated.  so far what i see is that non-english contributors do solely translations.  shouldn't they also be able to contribute new material and have that translated back into the other languages?
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Non-English contributors are more than welcome to contribute new material in English. I do. But I would love to see you organize the translations of original contents written in other languages but English. ;)
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: i know that anyone can make english contributions.  what i'm asking is whether anyone has pondered the idea of non-english people making contributions in their native language and then have that translated into all other languages (including english)
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: I understood that. And I tried to point out that it's an unrealistic idea.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: right ok.  i also see it as being hugely complicated.  but is seems wronng in an ethical sense
<pleia2> pmatulis: am now
<pmatulis> pleia2: you can read the above but i think GunnarHj confirmed my understanding
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: It is. I'd love it if every translators around the world spoke Swedish so I could contribute everything in Swedish. But I have resigned.
<pleia2> pmatulis: ah, GunnarHj is the expert here :)
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: something else, do translators always work within launchpad or can they download stuff and use some other toolset?
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: They can download a PO file for their language, edit that file, and then upload it back to LP. One possible tool to use when editing is poedit.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: according to your understanding, does the vast majority of them use launchpad as UI?
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Don't know. Varies probably between the different translation teams. The Swedish team uses both.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: ok thanks
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: I consider it normally better to download and edit PO files, since it makes it easier to understand context and make the translations consistent.
#ubuntu-doc 2015-11-30
<yop> bonjour
<yop> sous ubuntu 15.10 avec unity, comment Ã©viter l'ouverture d'une nouvelle fenÃªtre de nautilus quand  je clique sur l'icÃ´ne "Fichiers" dans le launcher si une fenÃªtre est dÃ©jÃ  ouverte ? merci
#ubuntu-doc 2015-12-01
<dsmythies> Is there a doc team meeting?
<pmatulis_> dsmythies: i'm not sure
<dsmythies> pmatulis_ : I guess not. Anway, we should do a point release of serverguide 14.04, then split out 14.04 and trunk. Then proceed with trunk as 16.04
<pmatulis_> dsmythies: yes, we need to do that
<dsmythies> I have been busy, but will try to get on it.
<pmatulis_> dsmythies: you and me both. kids/family + work + house maintenance. it's nuts
#ubuntu-doc 2015-12-02
<ahoneybun> what is Ted Cox's nick? if he has one
<pleia2> ahoneybun: tedmcox
<pleia2> he joins meetings for the doc team, but doesn't come in here much
<ahoneybun> I see, thanks pleia2
<ahoneybun> we now have some Mac stuff in the Manual
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-05
<Voten> hi
<Voten> hi
<davidcalle> Hi Voten, welcome o/
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-06
<risp> Hi
<Hafidz21ub> hi evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle as mentors for tutorials tasks! I joined to improve my skills and experience. ^_^
<Zaid> hello documentation team
<Desovsky> hi
<davidcalle> Hmm
<hydrogen> Hello, world.  Trying to fix some inaccurate information on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RANCID but itâs showing as immutable.  Is there somewhere I should report the error to get it fixed?
<davidcalle> hydrogen: hello, you can edit by joining this lp team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki-editors
<hydrogen> This is turning into a lot of work to fix five lines of code :/
<davidcalle> hydrogen: just let me know when you apply for the team, so I can approve you. The manual approval is to block spammers and bots.
<hydrogen> i pushed the button.
<hydrogen> thanks!
<davidcalle> hydrogen: is dmeltzer your id there?
<hydrogen> yeah
<davidcalle> hydrogen: approved! You should be able to login to the wiki and edit it now
<hydrogen> thank you
<davidcalle> yw :)
<hydrogen> davidcalle: It is still showing as an immutable page for me it looks like
<hydrogen> I do show in the editors team thouggh
<davidcalle> hydrogen :(
<davidcalle> hydrogen: feel free to pass me the changes, looks like I can edit
<davidcalle> (I don't use the wiki that much, but this is infuriating)
<hydrogen> davidcalle: sure.  Under the router.db Files section, the code in there has changed to use semi-colons instead of colons for separating details, so it should be ârouter1.location1.com;cisco;upâ instead of ârouter1.location.com:cisco:upâ and so on
<davidcalle> hydrogen: please check
<hydrogen> davidcalle: looks good, thanks!
<davidcalle> hydrogen: np
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-09
<Samm> Hi Ubuntu Doc team I'm a Google Code-In participant, and I'll be completing various tasks during the program. Hope that I'll improve my skills in my skills in producing high quality tutorials and contribute to the community!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-10
<Ananay> Hi!
<nishantparhi> hi
<Ishaan> Hi
<semara> hi my name is semara, nice to meet you all :D
<AlexMunoz> Hey Guys!
<AlexMunoz> (was told to say that for the task instance)
<Shizerq> Hey!
<Talon_> hi
<alokme123> Hi!! m from the google code-in contest!
