| === bigon is now known as bigon` | ||
| warp10 | Hi all | 11:24 |
|---|---|---|
| dholbach | MOTU Q&A session in 11 minutes | 12:48 |
| dholbach | Welcome everybody to another MOTU Q&A session - let's start with our usualy round of introductions | 13:00 |
| dholbach | I'm Daniel Holbach, working in the MOTU team for quite some time now and try to help to make it as enjoyable and straight-forward to become a MOTU as possible. :) | 13:00 |
| dholbach | who else do we have here? | 13:00 |
| * persia is Emmet Hikory. A MOTU for a bit now. Ask me about stacktraces and make :) | 13:00 | |
| norsetto | persia: stacktraces and make? | 13:01 |
| persia | norsetto: Yep. Those are the areas I'm most happy to answer questions about right now (I will also answer others :) ) | 13:01 |
| dholbach | is that everybody we have here today? Just persia, norsetto and me? :) | 13:02 |
| effie_jayx | I am Efrain Valles ... the ever MOTU hopefull, just started learning the MOTU tools and the processes. I am working on merges :D | 13:02 |
| norsetto | we need a fourth to play a good card game | 13:02 |
| dholbach | hello effie_jayx :) | 13:03 |
| warp10 | I'm here too... just a contributor indeed, but getting a lot of fun :) | 13:03 |
| dholbach | warp10: great! :) | 13:03 |
| dholbach | also effie_jayx is taking the time to write up sort of a MOTU Diary which is great | 13:03 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: can you give us the link again? | 13:03 |
| mruiz | Hi all! My name is Miguel Ruiz (MOTU hopeful). I started to interact with MOTU Team during Gutsy Gibbon cycle | 13:04 |
| dholbach | hey mruiz, great to have you here | 13:04 |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EfrainValles/MOTUJourney | 13:04 |
| effie_jayx | I am a bit behind ... ... it looks like it'll be a very MOTU christmas for me to catch up | 13:04 |
| mruiz | thanks dholbach :-) | 13:04 |
| effie_jayx | I am definetelly learning though... | 13:05 |
| dholbach | thanks effie_jayx | 13:05 |
| harrisony | Im harrison, MOTU hopefull | 13:05 |
| dholbach | hey harrisony, nice to have you here | 13:05 |
| * kelmo_lap having a look at what MOTU's learn about (these sessions been pretty good in recent past) | 13:05 | |
| dholbach | hey kelmo_lap | 13:05 |
| dholbach | so who brought some interesting questions today? :) | 13:05 |
| effie_jayx | Me | 13:06 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: fire away :-) | 13:06 |
| * persia has a question | 13:06 | |
| slytherin | I am Onkar, MOTU hopeful, I have been looking in some java related apps/libs recently. Have learnt quite a few things in last 2 weeks including CDBS & quilt. :-) | 13:06 |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, I just did a merge. the change has been taken up by the debain mantainer... which is gret... | 13:06 |
| dholbach | slytherin: hey Onkar | 13:06 |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, do I have to check the new package to see if it has new changes and then determine if it is indeed a sync? | 13:07 |
| Kmos | I'm also here.. MOTU hopeful =) | 13:07 |
| dholbach | slytherin: that's great - you should talk to doko - he's always happy to have people who are interested in the Java world | 13:07 |
| dholbach | hi Kmos | 13:07 |
| persia | effie_jayx: You don't need to, but it's a good idea. If it's a sync, it's only worth pulling if there are also other changes in the Debian package that would be useful in Ubuntu. | 13:07 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: exactly... as a sync can not be simply reverted, it's important to always check if all ubuntu changes made it to debian | 13:07 |
| dholbach | if they are, it's a good idea to file the sync (respecting freezes of course) | 13:08 |
| persia | Since Ubuntu already has your patch, if that is the only thing changed in Debian, it's better to wait for the next Debian upload. | 13:08 |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, great.. the pacakge was just uploaded to the debian ftp's yesterday. will it be listed again in MoM or DaD? | 13:08 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: after the next run, yes - until it's synced from debian | 13:08 |
| dholbach | or rather "in sync" with debian | 13:09 |
| dholbach | question answered? | 13:09 |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, most definetelly | 13:09 |
| dholbach | persia: you had a question? | 13:09 |
| * persia points to http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ just in case MoM and DaD seem unavailable, and there is interest in looking at package status. | 13:09 | |
| effie_jayx | thanks persia and dholbach | 13:09 |
| * dholbach hugs effie_jayx | 13:09 | |
| persia | My questions is: Is there a standard list of intepreters that scripts should use? | 13:10 |
| dholbach | Do you mean a list of shebang lines that are count as 'accepted'? | 13:10 |
| persia | Or, to put it another way, when packaging a script, should I restrict to only certain interpreters, or should dependencies handle this (and yes, to shebang lines) | 13:11 |
| dholbach | Does everybody understand persia's question? If things are unclear, please ask | 13:11 |
| mruiz | dholbach, explain it please... | 13:11 |
| dholbach | persia: the only thing I can tell you is that the use of thing like /usr/bin/env python is discouraged | 13:11 |
| dholbach | (lacking a link to policy reference though) | 13:12 |
| persia | dholbach: That's what I found (and why I thought I'd ask the question). | 13:12 |
| harrisony | dholbach: i thought the use of /usr/bin/env was encouraged :S | 13:12 |
| warp10 | dholbach: why is /usr/bin/env discouraged? Looks suprising to me | 13:12 |
| persia | harrisony: No, as the script should have been tested against either the system default python or a specific version of python. Using env means that we can't guarantee behaviour on the user's system, which makes it harder to support. | 13:13 |
| dholbach | (people might have python3k in usr/local etc) | 13:14 |
| persia | warp10: It's a little different, as upstream tends to recommend that, but it comes from different viewpoints: upstream tests against trunk or whatever, and wants reports of what works and what doesn't. Ubuntu wants a reliable system for a given codebase. | 13:14 |
| dholbach | but I'm still trying to find a policy reference or something | 13:14 |
| dholbach | mruiz: persia is talking about the shebang line in scripts, so something like #!/usr/bin/python | 13:14 |
| mruiz | thanks dholbach | 13:15 |
| * persia notes that http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-python.html says to use #!/usr/bin/python or #!/usr/bin/pythonX.Y, but doesn't find a general reference. | 13:15 | |
| warp10 | persia: ah, I see... so what should I do, as contributor, when I see env used in a file coming from upstream? Modify original tarball? Ask the developer? | 13:15 |
| persia | warp10: I usually just add a small patch to the package. For upstream, env is correct, and it's not good to modify tarballs. | 13:16 |
| warp10 | persia: ack. Thank you | 13:16 |
| dholbach | I just asked for clarification in #ubuntu-devel | 13:17 |
| dholbach | let's see if we get another opinion on the matter | 13:17 |
| * persia defers to the next question in the meantime | 13:17 | |
| dholbach | do we have any other questions? | 13:17 |
| mruiz | yes! | 13:17 |
| * warp10 has a question | 13:18 | |
| * Kmos I've a question.. | 13:18 | |
| dholbach | persia: seb128 says that "If a maintainer would like to provide the user with the possibility to override the Debian Python interpreter, he may want to use /usr/bin/env python or /usr/bin/env pythonX.Y. However this is not advisable as it bypasses Debian's dependency checking and makes the package vulnerable to incomplete local installations of python." should be good enough | 13:18 |
| dholbach | mruiz: shoot | 13:19 |
| dholbach | warp10 next, then Kmos | 13:19 |
| warp10 | Well, I have a proposal, rather then a question. | 13:19 |
| persia | dholbach: Yep. That's python. Answers the extra question :) | 13:19 |
| warp10 | I was looking effie_jayx, MOTU web page. It is very interesting, and I like that he has "Lesson Notes" appended to it | 13:19 |
| mruiz | What will happen with the outstanding merges? We moved to another tasks due the current development phase... | 13:19 |
| warp10 | Why don't we setup a page on the wiki, something like a Quick Reference to most commond task, command, tips, and so on | 13:20 |
| persia | mruiz: "Outstanding Merges" are very likely to be granted a DIF exception. "Updated Merges" need review. | 13:20 |
| dholbach | mruiz: whatever is on the sponsoring queue will get sponsored - if you want to do a merge during the release cycle - that's fine (respecting freezes, etc), but it's not the 'main focus' right now | 13:20 |
| warp10 | It could be useful for a contributor that doesn't remember something and don't wont to search the whole documentation | 13:20 |
| dholbach | warp10: that's something I try to make http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes | 13:20 |
| dholbach | warp10: if you have ideas for more recipes, let me know - I'm happy to add it to my todo list | 13:21 |
| * persia has tried to put the very most common on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing | 13:21 | |
| dholbach | yeah | 13:21 |
| dholbach | that's a great one too | 13:21 |
| warp10 | dholbach: I mean something even shorter, and managed by contributor, just like effie_jayx is doing | 13:21 |
| persia | warp10: I'd suggest Recipes is the right place. Many of those have been written by Contributors. | 13:22 |
| dholbach | warp10: If contributors help to keep the wiki in shape, that's awesome and I encourage it where I can | 13:22 |
| dholbach | what I'd like to avoid is to have 78843456787654345678 individual wiki pages in different namespace that explain the same thing or similar things | 13:23 |
| dholbach | they get abandoned, out of date, etc etc | 13:23 |
| dholbach | I spent a lot of time reorganising the PackagingGuide, UbuntuDevelopment and MOTU namespaces for those reasons | 13:23 |
| effie_jayx | warp10, I guess my journal falls into the "works for me" category ;). and I am trying to give it a noob focus to it... and always trying to document what I learn... in case I get | 13:23 |
| effie_jayx | memory loss | 13:23 |
| * persia notes that we recently had that problem, which is why WIP is currently so prominent | 13:23 | |
| warp10 | effie_jayx: a very nice page indeed :) | 13:24 |
| Kmos | There is a Fakesync document on MOTU wiki? i can't find it.. | 13:24 |
| dholbach | you could add requests or ideas to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Wishlist | 13:24 |
| dholbach | Kmos: can you add that to the page in the link I just pasted? | 13:24 |
| effie_jayx | warp10, but I always make reference to de UbuntuDevelopment wiki entries... so It's not like it was not there ;) | 13:24 |
| Kmos | i'll do =) | 13:25 |
| Kmos | thanks | 13:25 |
| persia | Kmos: There isn't one. The rule for fakesync is; only change the changelog and maintainer. This only happens when the orig.tar.gz files differ. | 13:25 |
| dholbach | thanks Kmos | 13:25 |
| warp10 | dholbach: oh, thanks, I'll surely use it if needed | 13:25 |
| dholbach | rock and roll | 13:25 |
| * slytherin has a question | 13:25 | |
| dholbach | thanks for that | 13:25 |
| dholbach | slytherin: fire away | 13:25 |
| dholbach | 2008 will be the year of good documentation - I can feel it | 13:25 |
| persia | heh | 13:26 |
| * warp10 really hopes so | 13:26 | |
| mruiz | Kmos, dholbach explained fakesyncs here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu-mentors/2007-June/000024.html | 13:26 |
| slytherin | I observed that docbook-xsl-saxon has BTBFS because it depends on library in multiverse (but it should not be). I logged a bug 'move to universe' and it is now resolved by pitti. Now how to trigger rebuild of the docbook-xsl-saxon package. | 13:27 |
| dholbach | slytherin: just ask pitti (or another build admin) in #ubuntu-devel to "give it back" | 13:27 |
| Kmos | mruiz: thanks | 13:28 |
| slytherin | Ok. Thanks. | 13:28 |
| * persia notes that that procedure only works when there are no binaries. | 13:28 | |
| slytherin | persia: Which procedure? | 13:28 |
| persia | If there are binary packages built, and you want to transition the binary packages from multiverse to universe, you may need to upload a -build1 package, or a new "rebuild" -ubuntuN package. | 13:29 |
| Kmos | persia: thank you :) we change the maintainer fields in debian package and make a debdiff against unmodified one ? | 13:29 |
| persia | slytherin: Asking for a give-back. | 13:29 |
| persia | Kmos: Only if a sync can't work. generally, a sync is better if we can. | 13:29 |
| seb128 | dholbach: you should not need a give back when a build is depwait | 13:29 |
| Kmos | persia: right. thanks | 13:30 |
| slytherin | No. The package is in universe but had FTBFS since it depended on a multiverse lib | 13:30 |
| norsetto | kmos: in that particular case it may be worth waiting for debian to update the package | 13:30 |
| dholbach | ok, listen to seb128 :) | 13:30 |
| Kmos | norsetto :-) | 13:30 |
| geser | slytherin: docbook-xsl-saxon is in DEPWAIT | 13:30 |
| slytherin | geser: latest status? I haven't checked. | 13:30 |
| dholbach | so it's worth noting that DEPWAIT is different than FTBFS | 13:30 |
| dholbach | does that make sense to everybody? are there questions about slytherin's question? | 13:31 |
| mruiz | I was reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing, section "Preparing New Revisions". What is the difference between an "update to the Ubuntu repositories" and "new upstream version" ? | 13:31 |
| geser | slytherin: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/docbook-xsl-saxon/+builds | 13:32 |
| seb128 | when a package is not available the build doesn't fail, it just waits for this one to be available | 13:32 |
| slytherin | geser: Just checked it. Thanks. :-) | 13:32 |
| persia | mruiz: A "New Upstream Version" is when the software developers make a new release (e.g. hello-2.3.2 -> hello 2.3.3). A "New Revision" is when Debian or Ubuntu makes some packaging changes to fix some bugs. | 13:32 |
| slytherin | seb128: Thanks for explaination. | 13:32 |
| geser | slytherin: my guess is that it takess some more hours until the buildds sees libsaxon-java in universe | 13:32 |
| seb128 | you are welcome | 13:32 |
| mruiz | persia, for me the new upstream version could be an update for Ubuntu as well... | 13:33 |
| persia | mruiz: Yes. Every new upstream version is also a new revision, but not every new revision is a new upstream version. | 13:33 |
| mruiz | I asked it because you should obtain a debdiff or interdiff (it depends on the type) | 13:34 |
| persia | Essentially, the code is package_version-revision, where package is the name of the software, version is the official version for all distributions, and revision is the adjustments made by the distribution. | 13:34 |
| dholbach | persia: to your previous question: | 13:35 |
| dholbach | <Chipzz> dholbach: using /usr/bin/env has a big drawback as opposed to just specifying the path (which IMHO you should) | 13:35 |
| dholbach | <Chipzz> dholbach: using /usr/bin/env makes it impossible to specify command-line arguments or switches to python (or perl) for example | 13:35 |
| * persia notes that my question was about unusual interpreters, but otherwise subsides | 13:35 | |
| dholbach | do we have any more questions? | 13:37 |
| slytherin | I have one | 13:37 |
| effie_jayx | a tong in cheek question.... | 13:37 |
| effie_jayx | MoM or DaD? | 13:37 |
| dholbach | slytherin: fire away | 13:37 |
| persia | effie_jayx: Either, both, as you like (mdt is also good) | 13:37 |
| mruiz | effie_jayx, it's my fault :-) | 13:37 |
| slytherin | What is the procedure to own a package? | 13:37 |
| effie_jayx | mruiz, yes... | 13:37 |
| dholbach | slytherin: in Ubuntu we don't own packages | 13:38 |
| persia | slytherin: I generally recommend taking it only on a second upload. | 13:38 |
| persia | If there is a very good reason why you specifically want to own a package, you can list yourself as the maintainer, but that isn't universally respected. | 13:38 |
| dholbach | I added a few notes about that here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/FAQ#head-6a3fb9097d750eed261d7102adfa43ea39839a1e | 13:38 |
| persia | Unless it's a very unusual case, it's best to either select a team, or just assign MOTU as the maintainer. | 13:39 |
| dholbach | we respect if people are known to have a special area of expertise | 13:39 |
| dholbach | but there is nothing like a big maintainer lock | 13:39 |
| * persia generally just subscribes to bugs for packages of interest, and uses the MOTU maintainer | 13:39 | |
| slytherin | What I mean is. I want to handle all the uploads of a package. I am one of the upstream maintainers. So what is the procedure? | 13:39 |
| Hobbsee | persia: not respecting the maintainer field like that would have to be a @lartable offense, surely. | 13:39 |
| Hobbsee | but yes, it's rarely done | 13:40 |
| dholbach | Hobbsee: that's what I said about 'area of expertise' | 13:40 |
| Hobbsee | right, yes, i didn't read that far when i wrote my reply :) | 13:40 |
| dholbach | it's respected when you set yourself as the maintainer, but not to the point where "nobody but you is allowed to do uploads of that package" | 13:40 |
| persia | slytherin: Why do you want to handle all of them? Is it not easier to handle the new upstreams, and also accept minor bugfixes from others? | 13:41 |
| persia | If you subscribe to all the bugs, you'll see most of the traffic for the package. | 13:41 |
| dholbach | slytherin: do the answers make sense to you? | 13:41 |
| slytherin | a little bit, not completely. | 13:42 |
| * persia notes that setting specific maintainers can make library transitions difficult, which is one of the reasons it's discouraged | 13:42 | |
| dholbach | slytherin: what are your concerns or which reply does not make sense to you? | 13:42 |
| slytherin | What I wanted to know is that if I am one of the upstream authors is there anyway I can get upload permission specific to this package? The package is in universe. | 13:43 |
| slytherin | And I am not against anyone else uploading this package. | 13:43 |
| dholbach | slytherin: do you mean "upload permission" until you're part of the MOTU team? | 13:43 |
| persia | slytherin: Not at this time. There is an ongoing discussion about how to address that sort of thing in the mailing lists. | 13:44 |
| slytherin | dholbach: No. I will try to use that upload permission as my entry point in MOTU. | 13:44 |
| slytherin | persia: Ok. | 13:44 |
| persia | Until that is resolved, the use of the sponsors queue is the best way to get your changes uploaded. | 13:44 |
| dholbach | when your sponsors are happy with you and you've proved that you do good work, you can apply for MOTU membership | 13:45 |
| slytherin | Ok. | 13:45 |
| dholbach | it might be harder to demonstrate that if you've just done uploads of one package | 13:45 |
| dholbach | but I know that you're not interested in only one package :-) | 13:45 |
| dholbach | do we have any other questions? | 13:46 |
| dholbach | anything unclear about processes? packaging problems? | 13:47 |
| mruiz | ! | 13:48 |
| dholbach | mruiz: just ask :) | 13:48 |
| effie_jayx | I have a question... is ther a task timeline for motu tasks during a release cycle? | 13:50 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: we try to indicate that in MOTU homepage | 13:51 |
| dholbach | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO always lists things that need to be done | 13:51 |
| dholbach | any other questions? any holiday stories you want to share? | 13:51 |
| mruiz | is there any plan to sponsor packages from mentors.debian.net ? Time ago I wanted to upgrade a package but the Debian maintainer did it before, but it packages are on mentors | 13:52 |
| persia | effie_jayx: At a rough level, it's indicated by the freezes in the release schedule (e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule | 13:52 |
| effie_jayx | ahhh cool | 13:52 |
| effie_jayx | it gives me and Idea of where to start | 13:52 |
| dholbach | mruiz: I think that our sponsors currently have enough to do just with REVU and the sponsoring queue - this might change in the future though | 13:52 |
| persia | mruiz: We don't generally sync from mentors, but we can. It's a good source of orig.tar.gz, so we could sync later. | 13:52 |
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| dholbach | hi bigon | 13:53 |
| persia | mruiz: If there are good changes, extracting them and creating a debdiff or interdiff is welcome | 13:53 |
| effie_jayx | recently I have been doing lots of ubuntu travelling and I got unhooked for two weeks... and I am not confident enouht for the dayly TODO list | 13:53 |
| bigon | dholbach: hi :) | 13:53 |
| dholbach | effie_jayx: I'm sure you'll do great | 13:53 |
| mruiz | in this case the package is done, just I want to avoid duplicated work | 13:53 |
| slytherin | One last question. | 13:54 |
| dholbach | slytherin: shoot | 13:54 |
| persia | mruiz: Understood. Using the mentors package as a base, and just adjusting the version and maintainer is often sufficient for an important bugfix. Otherwise, it's better to wait. | 13:54 |
| slytherin | Are we for/against taking extra efforts to make java apps compile with GCJ? | 13:54 |
| dholbach | slytherin: that's a question for doko - I can't comment on it | 13:55 |
| persia | slytherin: That's a more general question. I'm in favor, but you should write a mailing list about it for general discussion. | 13:55 |
| dholbach | there's also #ubuntu-java | 13:55 |
| dholbach | there's a lot of talk about icedtea but I don't know if it's the answer to all questions | 13:55 |
| dholbach | (simply due to not knowing enough about the whole java business) | 13:56 |
| mruiz | is mentoring available for taks on MOTU/TODO ? | 13:56 |
| dholbach | mruiz: just ask questions on #ubuntu-motu or ubuntu-motu-mentors@ or for a review once you've come up with a debdiff | 13:57 |
| persia | mruiz: Not necessarily specifically, but if you want help with one, and ask on #ubuntu-motu, someone may well be willing to help (I certainly am for the WX transition) | 13:57 |
| dholbach | help will come to those that ask (or something like that) | 13:57 |
| slytherin | dholbach: There is one small problem. Most of the apps do not specify a target JVM in compile scripts. So compiling such packages with icedtea (target JVM 1.7) makes them unusable with all other JREs. So it is better to use common denominator, GCJ. :-) | 13:58 |
| dholbach | slytherin: ok... you see: you know much more about it than I do :) | 13:58 |
| slytherin | I will bug doko | 13:58 |
| dholbach | ok... thanks everybody for joining today's MOTU Q&A session - I won't be around in the next two weeks, so we'll meet again in 2008 | 13:58 |
| effie_jayx | a big hand to dholbach ... you are really getting people in the MOTU boat brother... keep up the great inspirational work. hats off to you dholbach | 13:58 |
| dholbach | you all ROCK and I hope to see you as MOTUs in 2008 :-) | 13:59 |
| mruiz | thanks guys.. I wish you good holidays and a merry Christmas | 13:59 |
| * effie_jayx claps | 13:59 | |
| norsetto | happy holidays everyone | 13:59 |
| * dholbach hugs effie_jayx - thanks a lot for the flowers | 13:59 | |
| * dholbach hugs y'all :) | 13:59 | |
| mruiz | :-) | 13:59 |
| effie_jayx | happy holidays | 13:59 |
| dholbach | norsetto: the same to you | 13:59 |
| * effie_jayx hugs mruiz | 13:59 | |
| * dholbach dashes out of the door to buy some missing presents :-) | 14:00 | |
| effie_jayx | dholbach, enjoy your holiday break | 14:00 |
| * norsetto dashes out of the door to have lunch ..... | 14:00 | |
| * mruiz hugs everyone | 14:00 | |
| dholbach | norsetto: good point | 14:00 |
| effie_jayx | thank you persia and mruiz for the great help with merges | 14:00 |
| mruiz | effie_jayx, no worries! :D | 14:01 |
| persia | effie_jayx: Thanks for helping keep the archive in shape. | 14:01 |
| effie_jayx | persia, did I do that? | 14:01 |
| mruiz | persia, thanks for your guidance :-) | 14:02 |
| persia | effie_jayx: That's the end result of merges, syncs, bugfixes, etc. :) | 14:02 |
| effie_jayx | :D | 14:03 |
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| chdorb | salut | 19:35 |
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